WEzifc HE. V/B F4 P275f ^^^! «r & FROM THE LIBRARY OF REV. LOUIS FITZGERALD BENSON, D. D. BEQUEATHED BY HIM TO THE LIBRARY OF PRINCETON THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY (51 • tff ^tiL-ytj^ fa*? /?, /89fc Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2013 http://archive.org/details/frienbeOOpatr \ IMPRIMATUR, Nov. 7 1668. Tho.Tomkyns, <%eyerenaisfim& in ChriHo ( Patri ac Domino , T>om. Giib. Arch. Cancuar. a Sacr. Dom. Si mon "TbrtvicK- A Friendly Debate BETWEEN A A N D A NON-CONFORMIST. The Third Edition. LONDON, ■ Printed for Richard Royfion^ Bookfeller to the King's moft excellent Ma jefty, 1669, * 'YV«' > ^ Friendly Debate Betwixt two Neighbours, The one A CONFORMIST, The other A NONCONFORMIST, About feveral weighty matters, Publi find for the benefit of this City, by a Lover ofit^andofpure Religion. Prov.i?. 32. He that refnfetb inftru&io* defpifith his ewn foul ; hut he that heareth reproof geittth under* (t*udir.f> To the Reader. Render, DO not throw away thk little Book tefoonat ever thou meetefl with fomething that offends thee ; but fit down rather, and confider upon what account thou art of ended. If it be onely becaufe the Author contradicts thy Opmions,and perhaps accufes them of ~ felly \ thou hajl caufe to turn thy difyleafure from him upon thy felf for prefumrng fo much of thy own infallibility : which if thou wilt not pretend unto, then read on further \ and 'confider whether he contradicts thee with redfon, or without : and howfoever it prove, thou wilt not repent thee of thy pains. For if he reprove thy Opinions without re. m wilt be more co;fir- md in them; if with re,. A 4 fxchan : To the Reader. exchange them for better. It is poffible, indeed, thatfome things mayfeem to be exprejfedtoG tartly and fever ely, ando- thers too lightly and merrily : but let not that put •thee out of humour neither, nor make the reafon which i& offered lefs confider able .For the Author (lean affure thee) hath no gall in him, nor was in any paffion when he write theft things : but intended onely (06 naturally as he could on afudden) to exprefsfweh Difcourfe ^Neighbours are wont to have in their private converfation ; in which if there be nothing that kfnart or plea- fani, they can fear ce keep one another from fleeping. He is very well aware under what great prejudices we all la- bour ; and ccnfiders how hard it is to difyeffefs an Opinion, though falfe, nay ridiculous, To the Reader. ridiculous, which a man hathfucKdin with his mothers milk^, and which hath been imprejled on him by education, con- firmed by cuflom, much encouraged by the confent and practice of thofe with whom he daily converfes, and hath per- haps his complexion and natural temper to befriend it) and incline him to it. Vp- onfuchconfiderations asthefe he cannot be angry with thofe againjl whom he writes ; but rather phies them, and is forry they confider notfuch things them- fihes ; and Jo reprefs that heat andpaf- fion wherewith they advance their own private late inventions, againft publick. Decrees and ancient Conjiitutions. One fort of men (ht ctnfeffei) are apt a little to move his indignation, who pretend to the greateji nicenefs of confidence, and have To the Reader. have handled the matter fo ai to be thought the moji religiom of all others ; and yet make no fcruple to do thofe things continually which are utterly con- trary to good conscience. (So, I believe, an underjianding Hfeathen or Turk would refblve, were he made judge in the cafe, and had fir jl their Principles, and then their Practices, laid before him. ) Such the Author thinks Jeferve to be rebuked; and if there be any thing fpoken withfiarpnefs in the enfuing Difcourfe, it is when he hath to do with themXet in that cafe he hath ufed due moderation, not fudying to vex men, but onely to awaken and convince them. For he is very fenftble that when we go about to displace any Opinion, and in- troduce another in its room, we ufually lofe To the Reader. Uft our labour, if we either fail to pro- found our mind dexter oufly, orufenot fuch meekjiefi as may fhew vet have a good will to thofe from whom we differ. Where thefe are wanting, in/lead cf inviting men to receive a Truth, we find they are commonly further alienated from it. Now he hathfome confidence he vs not much defective in thefirfl, ha- ving taken care to exprefs hh mind clearly and in plain words, and contri- ved his Vifcourfe into the form of a Dia- logue,^ make it more eafily apprehend- ed. As for the Later, he cannot but think, that he hath done his duty, and testi- fied his kfndnefs every where, even to thofe againfi whom thou mayefi think, him mofi fever e. But if thou judgeji otherwife,then heearneflly befeeches thee to To the Reader. to overlook it and pafs it by, as an in- confiderate and hafly expreffion ; and to weigh rather what Truth h herepre- fentedto thee, than in what manner it is delivered, Infbort, If it had not been to fill up fome vacant pages, he had made almoji asjhort a Preface a* thofe words of the Son of Sirach {according to which he expefis thefuccefs of his labour) Ecclus, 21.15. Ifa skilful man hear a wife word, he will commend it, and add unto it : but as foon as one of no underftanding heareth it, itdifplea- fethhim, and lie cafteth it behind his back. Examine all things, and judge righteous judgment. Ortob.20.166S. A Table of the principal matters contained in this Difcourfc. THeoccafionofit. pag . j> All are not Chrift'j Minifiers who pretend to it. i,3» Of powerful Preaching. 4,5,1*. Of Spiritual Illumination* 6 % dec. The great proof of Chrifiian Religion ii the Spi- rit. 9,io. Of Spiritual and Legal Preaching 1 1 , &c. Of the necejjitj of Good Work,* to our jufitfication. Who art the wofl Soul fe arching Preachers. 1 6, 1 7*&c Vpon this occapen Mr. Watfon*/ late BocJ^of Re- pentance is a little examined. 20, 2 1 ,&c. ^/r.Bridges his Ten Sermons conftdered, ejpecially that about the Difference -between Ntw Ttjlu- ntentjpiritandOldTep.sJirit. 25,26,&c„ By what means this whole Nation came to be over- ran wuhfolly. $4 Mr. Bridges one of them that helps to continue and increafe it. 35 unto 40. Of Spiritual preachers. 40,&c. Of applying Promifes, 45,44,&c. Of Experimental Preachers. 47, &c. leolijh application of Script urt 4 9, 5 1 « A Cem» The Table. A Comparifon bet w: en the difcreet Conformifls ana the mon~ conformifls. 54» Of the Seal that fome pretend Godhxth given tq their Miniftrj. 5S* Who Are the mo ft guilty of being Time-fewer/. The Annotations commonly afcribed to the Affem- bly- men jay nothing of Sacrilege. 59>&C- S ever at other infiances of Men-pie a fing. 64. Of for fakjng Prmctples 6 6 ,&C None more guilty then they t hat accufe others of it. 68 unto 79. Of the calling of the prefent Mini (ten of our Church. 79» Of praying by the Spirit. 8 9 to 9U Pretence to %i hath brought Religion into contempt. 87 &C. Concerning a Form of Prayer. 93 ,&c» Of the Common Prayer. 97,&C. That fome things may be done concerning the fVor- flnpofGod -which he hath not exprefiy comman- ded* lOl,&C, That the enjoy ning things indifferent makes them not unlawful. 1O4. All do not think our Forms of Prayer and other Orders unlawful, who fpeak^againft them, or fvjfer ethers to dofo. 1 1 0» OfWillworfhip. Ii$» None mere Superfluous then they who feem moft afraid of it. 1 1 7 ,&C» Th: reafon men are no more affttted with a good forni The Table. Form of Prayer. jio&c, A brief confutation of a nev> book, culled Neftufli- Who the Non-ccnformifts call dull Preachers. '. . A . i3>&c. C hrtjttan Religion teaches the higheft Morality, Oj ? profiting bj Sermons. Ul ^\ Of Chrtfttan tomfort. I4 g } l4g All the Godly { m * ^tended by fomc)*re not Ncn- (enter mi ft j. j . ^ Nor the Generality of them. jc* Thejreafonno^as they did in the late Rebellion. 1 K O &c They have not more of the Power of Codlinefsthen others, ' 6 SMdefcri-.tioncfthofe who have e*e/j « Form °J Gedlmefs. 6 frho have the Power of it. t6 ,' Ofh'fingDajs. l6y £ Abetter w>y c f ft ending our time then i„ rim . mng to pri Va i e Mtttmgt t and peeping Bap, H jfr»>ohuJl) Ve ^t charged with Slight nefTo'f Concerning Experience, a „d w b at th!p , l J]' k™*"*! it, what not, J7? &c Of delighting in heavenly difcourfe. i Cs'&c' Of going to fee a PU j.' J ,g ,£!' ~' fyj are not always bsund to do what it left. , 8 , [ A rt *">k*bl< ?4«g> in w of Mr, Bridge*', Ser- The Table. Sermon* conftdered. 188, 1 89 s 5cc» Of plain Preachers. 192,196. Of painful Preachers. 19+* Whither Nowconformifts be the firitlefi people* 198. And the weft ferioitt people. 1 99, &C. And tender-confcienc*d 201. They are to be praifed who read the Prajers de- voutly. 201,&C. Zeal carries wen beyond and againfl their Keafon* 203,204* A "Difference to be wade between one Non confor- mist and another* 205 ,206. We fhould b: reconciled, if the Presbyterian Mini' fters would perfwxde their people to do yvh*t the) can do them ft Ives. 208 < A brief vitty of their own Di/courfcs heretofore a- gainfi ftparation from them. 209,2 10,&C. They complain tf Perfection unjufllj. 2 \ 7,& c » Thy were contented fome Ceremonies of their own making fbould be enjoy ned. 2 10 &c. Their oVvn Advice about the Covenant very good for them to follow, 222. The Covenant againft the Law. ■ 22 3,&c» They had at good flay atyay oa not ftfe Reverence in Divine Sen ice. 2 30* How to hear Sermons. 231* How Non conformist s fhould behave them/elves while they remain unfatisfied about things in difference* 2$a i UHtQ2<\Q. A (O A Friendly Debate BETWEEN A Conformifl^nA a Non-Qonformijt; G Conf.f^^Ood morrow, Neighbour: lam very glad to fee you, and you are welcome home. Non-Cunf, I thank you kindly • But I do not underltand your Salutation , not having been from home this twelve- moneth. C. No ? what's the reafon then that we have not feen you at Church of ia r e ? N. C. I believe you did not fee me: but I ?fDre you the Church never wants my compa- ny. C-. How can that be? Are you there, as the Angels are, after an invisible manner f N.G. Pifh ! you do not apprehend me. Do you take your houfe of ilone to be a Church ? C. Yes indeed do I : and { as I have been in- forrrTd by them that know it):tismDre properly called fo, than your Aflembiies. For the Englifti wordChurcb, Originally fignifies an houfe of the Lord tor Chrirtians to worfhip in ; as I have been told by your M ; ni who isdifobe- dient to his Sovereign, whom Chrifi bids him obey ? A 7 /% Difobedient ?Yes,in thofe things which thrift hath forbidden him to do. And therein I hope you will be content he fhould obey God ra- ther than man, C. I knew this would be your anfwer. But, what if I prove that he is difobedient even there where Chrifi and his Laws are not at all con- cerned? N. C* You earn )t do it. C. Why, whai Law oxCbrifi is there that re- quires him ro live in London^ or at leaft within five rritfs of it? N.C. None that I know* C. But the Law of the Land forbids him to Lve in this p!ace>or within fuch a diftance. And . yet between a Qonformifl> &e. 5 yet notwithftanding he Jives here in defiance of that Law (which you confefs is not contrary to Ckrift's. And being here, he lives alfo in the breach of a great many other Law?. N. C. That was a Tyrannical Law* C. Very good. But it is not repugnant, you arc convinced, to the Commands of t brlfi > and therefore he is not a good Subject, and confe- quently not a good Chriftian ; much lefsfuch a perfon,as a Mini Iter of Ckrift ought to be* N.C. Would not you think it hard to be fd abridged of your liberty J C. Yes, without doubt- But, if we mud never fubmit to fuch things, as we count harfh and ri- gorous, then farewel all the Doclrine of Chrifi concerning tchmg upeurcrofs y and fttffering pa- tientljy&c.Wfhich Doclrines.it you had ftudied, you would not have uttered fuch a word as im- plies the King to be a Tyrant* N. C Pray pardon me that raflwefr. C* * do moft readily, and hope you ask God pardon for this, and all other your raili words and actions. But that / may a little further con- vince you of that we were fpeaking of 5 / be- feech you tell me, what Law of Chrifi is there thatenjoyns him whom you follow to hold his Aflemblies juft then, when the publick Service ofGod,eltablifhed by Law, begins? Is not this fufficient to convince any unprejudiced man, that he is not content to enjoy his own way of worfliipping God, but he would alfo deltroy B 2 ours 4 A Friendly Debate ours ? That is,not only to aft contrary to a Law, but to endeavour to fubvert what is ena&ed by it? Elfe, why might it not fuffice him to begin when the publick Service is done 5 N. C. For that I cannot tell what to fay. C. Then / can make an anfwer for you. Your Minifter is afraid , left any of you fhould go to Church, and like our Minifter fo well, that you fhould think there is no need of him. N. C. Away, away! There is no danger of thar. He fo far excels yours, that if we fhould come to hear him, it would onely make us like our own the better. C « Wherein ( / pray you ) doth this excellen- cy coniift } N. C* O Sir, he is a very powerful man\ Yours is a meer Dr* Dulman in compare with him- C. What do you mean ? that he hath a loud- er voice, that he is more vehement, and lays about him more than ours?Or what is it? If you take him to be powerful, who preffes his Do- ctrine with ftrong and powerful reafons, fuch as we cannot gainfay or refiftJ / believe our M nifter will prove the more powerful of the iwr. N. C. h mav be fa, /have heard indeed that be is a man of Reafon : but what is that to the Demonftration of the Spirit, and cf power ? , C . True : there is no compare between theft. But hath 5 our Minifter that Dcmonftra- tion between a £ onformift P 8cc. j tion of the Spirit and of Power ? N. C. Yes fure, if ever any man had. C. That's good news ; for then we fhall fee that which before we only believed. Hath he the gifts of the Holy Goft } Can he fpeak with Tongues, and Prcphede, and work Miracles, and tell us the thoughts of mens hearts ? N. C. What do you mean ? C. I mean that which the Apoftle Saint Paul meant, who had this Demonftramn efthe Sipirit^ and of Power ; which he gave the world, to con- vince them that Jefns was rifen from the dead, and was made Lord of all, whom they were therefore bound to obey* N. C. But I mean fomething elfe. C. Pray tell me what that is. Only let me defire you not to ufe words, without the fenfe belonging to themjand to intreat your Miniiter. that he would hereafter forbear to pray to God that he may fpeak in the Demonfiration of the Spirit^ and of Power ; for no body now can hope to do it. IV. C. I mean, that he is fpiritually enlight- ned to fearch the deep things of the Spirit of God y which the natural man cannot difcern, C. I wonder at you, that you fhould not dif- cern the Apoftle there fpeaks of the Holy Gholt (/*.*. the wonderful Gifts of it) in them, which allured them of thofe things that no meer natu- ral Reafon could prove. I doubt your Miniiter is net fpiritually enlighmed, becaufe he doth B 3 not 6 A Friendly Debate not inftruft you better in the Scriptures.' N. C. Scriptures? He never fays any thing but he quotes a place of Scripture for it. All his Sermons are nothing elfe : whereas yours are but Rational Difcourfes. C. I remember I have heard a wife man fay, that one may talk nothing but Scripture*and yet fpeak never a wife word* And I verily believe it; for it is not the Word of God when we mif- take its fenfe, as you commonly do. N. C. Doth yours do any better? C« Yes : he feems to me to make it his bu- finefs to let us into the meaning of the holy Book. And he backs his Reafon, not with phra- fes fnatch'd from thence, but with fuch places as manifestly fpeak the fame fenfe that he doth. N. C. I have heard him fometimes endeavour to open the Scripture, but methinks he doth not do it in a Spiritual way, but onely Ratio- nally. C My good Neighbour, confider what you fay-Do you think that thefe two words. Spiritual and Rational are oppofed the one to the other ? If they be, then Spiritually is as much as Irratio- nally and ah fur dly, N. C. No, pardon me there. I do not think thofetwo are opposite s but Carnal Reafon is oppofice to the Spirit. C.To fpeak properly, you fliouM fay that Carnal Reafon is oppose to Spiritual Reafon : That between a Qonformifl, &c. 7 That is, a Reafon that is guided by Fleffily lufts is oppofite to that which is guided by the Gofpel oiCkrift. N/C /fay, as / faid before, it is oppofite to the Spirit. C. You muft either mean as / doJor t\te that it is oppofite to the Gofpel, which is frequent- ly called the Sfirh in Scripture. Buf,pray tell me,how fliall we underrtand the Gofpel,by our Reafon, or by fomething t\k ? N-fC.By the Spirit, C. What,muft we have an immediate Reve- lation to make us underftand its fenfe ? or mud we ftudy and confider, and lay things together, and fo come to know its meaning > N. C. Yes, we muft give our minds to it, and then the Spiritenlightens us. C. That is, it guides us to reafon , and dif- courfe, and judge aright, /s not that it you mean? N. C. No ; /mean it fhines into our minds with its light. C. Thefe are phrafes which / would have you explain if you cai> My Qijeftion is this, Doth the Spirit (hew as any new thing^which is not the conclufion of the Reafoningsand Dif- courfes in our minds about the Senfe of Scri- pture ? N.C. / cannot fay it doth. C. Then you confefs that the Scripture is to to be interpreted in a Rational way ; we not B 4 having 8 A Friendly Debate having that which is truly to be called Spiritual in diitinftion from the other, viz. the immedi- ate revelation of the Holy Ghoft, which the Apjftles had. N.C. Still I cannot think that this is Spiritual. C That is, you are prejudiced : orelfeyou phanfie every thing that you do not understand to be Spiritual. N.C. No, notfo: but the manner of under- flanding the things of God, methinks, fhould be Other than you conceive. C. Truly, if you have any other manner of underftanding befides this, and have not the ex- traordinary gifts of the Holy Ghoit; I conclude you take the fudden (and many times pretty) fuggeftions of /magination to be /lluminations from above. N. C; Now you have hit on fomething that / would have faid : The Spirit do:h often dart things into my mind* C. How know you that ? Do you take every thing that comes into your head you know not how, to be an /rradiation from the Holy GSoft ? N- C; No, / dare not fay fc • C, Then you examine it, and confider whe- ther it be rational and coherent, or no* N-f. Yes. f • Then you fall into our way whether you will or no. And whatfoever you think of us, we do not deny but God's good Spirit pits good / thoughts between a Qonformift, &c. 9 thoughts oft-times in our mindsjand represents things more clearly to us than we could rcr.ke them by all our reafonings: which h as much 3s to fay, that it lets us fe the reafonablenefs nd aptnefs of fuch a Senfe I for inftance) of the Di- vine Writings as wt uiiccrned not before. N.C. Well, Iamglad tohearyoufpe^kfo much of the Spirit. C. You might hear ten times as much- if yon would but frequent our Affemblies. For there we are conftantly taught, that the very ground and foundation of our Faith in Je fas Chrift is the Spirit^ i. e. the Holy Ghoft fent down from Heaven upon our Saviour and his Apoftles. N. C. You mix fo much of Fveafon with what you fay, that I am afraid you are not in the right, C. You fhould rather conclude the contrary, and not believe any thing but what you have a good reafon for. N.C. Say you fc? How then fhall I believe that Jefiu Chrift is the Son of God ? Can Rea- fon tell me this ? C, I am forry to fee you fo ill inltrucled. If you had continued to hear our Minilter j he would have made you underftand before this time, that though our reafon could not find out that Truth, yet God hath given us the highcft reafon to believe it. And this I told you is the Spirit ; the Spirit in Chrift and in his Apo- ftles. N.C. i o A Friendly D ebate NX* Pray explain your meaning, for I un- derstand not thefe new Notions. C. The Holy Gholt (/mean ) defcendedon pur Saviour at his Baptifm, with a voice from Hesven,faying, This is my beloved Son,in whom I am well pletfed. This is one reafon we have to believe on him . Then he wrought miracles by the power of this Spirit ; and though he was killed, yet he was railed again from the dead by it ; and after that he fent the Spirit upon his A- poitles,who thereby demonftrattd that he was the Sen of God with power. Which are all reafons for my belief \ and if you have any other I would gladly hear them, or know whether you believe without any Reafon at all* N. C. Thefe are Spiritual Reafons. C. I like your Language very well : only re- member that thefe are the Divinell Reafons irch cannot be refilled. For thus our mind ar- , with it felf : That which God teftified by voices from Heaven, and by a world of Mira- cles* is to be believed ; that Jefa is his Son,he did in this manner teftifie ; therefore we are to believe that he is God's Son. N.C. Who taught you to reafon on this fa- fliion? C. Is this fuch a mighty bufinefs, that you wonder at ? We are taught continually to give our felves thefe reafons,why wefhould be- lieve; Andmethinks it is the mort powerful preaching in the world. For, if I believe firmly that between a Qonfor miji y 8cc. n that Jeffts is the Son of God, is rifen from the dead, and will come to jtidg the world;how can I chufe but obey him with great care and con- ftancy f N. C. Yoa fay true. But me thinks there is more Spiritual Preaching than this. C, What ftiould that be? N.C. To oreach the great Miseries of the GofpeJ. C./s not this the firft great Myftery of God- linefs, God maniftftedin theflefi? (i Tim.l*i6.) and is not this the next, that he was juftlficd in, otjly the Spirit • which we give as a proof that he was manifefted in the flefh?Read the reft, and then come and hear our Minifter, and you fhall find them a 1 1 unfolded one time or other in a plain and ample manner. N. C. Thefe methinks are no fuch great My- fteries. C. No? fare you know not the meaning of the word Myfttry, but live onely upon phrafes* Was not this a Secret kept in the breaft of God from ages and generations ? N. C.Yes. C- Then it is a Myftery, and the chief and firft of all- That God hath fent his Son into the World. As for the ends of his fending him > if thofe be they yon call Myfteries ,"they are as much declared among u?,as among you^and pei- tups a great deal more. N. C. What do you mean ? C / u A Friendly Debate C. I mean, his dying for our Sins, and rifing sgainfor our Judication, and Intercetfion on our behalf at God's right hand. I dare fay thefe are as well opened to us, as ever they have been to you. N. C. I am glad to hear it ; for I alwayes thought there was little but Legal Preaching a- xnong vou. C You mean, we are taught to obey the Commands of Chrift. N. C. No : the Dottrine oiGood works is al- ways founding from your Pulpits, C. Thefe are the fame thing : for no other Works are taught us, but fuch as Chrift injoyns. As for the Works of Afofes his Law, we never hear of them, but only that they do no longer oblige us. If we did, I aflure you we fhould call our Preachers Legal as much as you can do. N t C. But I am afraid the infilling fomuch upon Good works, is Legal. C. You fhould rather fear that the Preaching of them fo little, leads men to Libertinifm* N. C. We are tender lead: the Grace of God fhould be impeached, by putting men fo much upon Doing, C. Then, it feems, you think it peculiar to the Spirit of the Law, to be very follicitous a- bout Doing well. N. C, Yes. C. Now I fee you are in very grofs dark- nefs. between a Conformifl^ Sec] Ij nefs. For certainly both the Law and the Gofpe! put men upon doing ; but not the fame things, nor with the fame difpofition. N.C. Explain your felf; for methinks you are in the dark. C. The Gofpel give us better rules of life, and gives us power to do according to them with a more willing and chearful mind, than the Law did. N. C. Where then is grace all this while ? C Ic was the Grace of God that gave us the Gofpel ; and it is his Grace that accepts of our repentance and obedience after we have offend- ed him ; which pardons alfo,and pafles by our failings and irrtperfeftions, when we fincerely defign and ftudy to obey him in all things. N. C. You do not think then that you can de- ferve any thing of him. (T. No: howfhould we, feeing we are his Creatures, and owe him all the Service we can do him? Which makes us believe,that if we had been born in innocence, and continued fo till this time, we could have merited nothing^much lefs can we pretend to it,now that we are Sin- ners. N.C. B'jt you think Good works are necef- fary to our Juftification. C\ Whoever doubted of it that underftood himfelf? N. C. That doth many a Godly Divine ; whom /have heard fay, that they are not re- requifite 14 A Friendly Debate quifite to our Jttftification, but only to our Sal- vation* C. I am loath to fay,that thofe Godly Divines did not mind what they (M 9 becaufe I ought in modefty to fufpeft my own Underftanding, ra- ther than theirs : But to me it feems a Grange thing, that they fhould not obferve Salvation to be nothing elfe but our final and a bfolute ;*/?*- fication at the day of Judgment. And then I am lure our Saviour faith he will examine what men have done j and according as he finds it good or bad, pronounce the fentence of Abfolution or Condemnation* Read the 25. of S« Matthen 9 from the ^i.verfeto the end* N. C. What do you conclude from thence ? O What? Taat if good works be neceflary to our J unification then when we come before the Judge; they are necefftry now to the begin- ning ot our Juftification, or ( if you would have me (peak other words ) to enter us into the ftate of Jultified perfon*. N> C. How can that be? fince we are juftified by Faith only ? C. Very well. For it is not an idk ineffectu- al Faith which juftifies us ; but that which mrkj by lav: ro our Saviour : and love is the keeping of ins Commandementf. flt'd I fee one Hull not want rational dif- courfe at your Church fas you call it :) but me- chinb I nevr found that life and power in your Miniitry which I have in ours- C.I between a Qonformifl* 8c c. ly C. I told you before, that I find nothing fo powerful as the Chriitian Doctrine rationally handled. And if the Faith of Chrift be not fo preached as I now told you, for my part I feel no force in the Joudeft words that I hear ; but am apt to fay as the man did when he fhear'd his Hogs, Here is a great deal cf noife, and little V(90L N,C. My meaning was, That ours move my afreftions very much, and yours ftir them not atalh C. I have been taught, that there are two wayes to come at the Arfeclions : One by the Senfes and Imagination ; and fo we fee people mightily afte&ed with a Puppet-play, with a Beggar's tone, with a lamentable Look,or any thing of like namre.The other is, by the Reafon and Judgment; when the evidence of any Truth convincing the Mind, engages the affections to its Ci6t) and makes them move according to its direftion. Now,I believe your Affeflions are moved in the firft way very often s by melting Tones, pretty Similitudes, riming Sentences , kind and loving Smiles, and fometimes difmal- ly fad Looks; befides feveral Aftions or Ge- (tures which are very taking. And the truth is> you are like to be moved very feldom in our Churches by thefe means* For the better fort of Hearers are now out of love with thefe things: nor do they think there is any power cither in a puling and whining, or in roaring and i6 A Friendly Debate \ and tearing voice. But if you can be moved by fuch ltrength of reafon,as can conquer the Jjdgment, and fo pafs to demand fubmiflion t'rom the Affection; you may find power enough (/thinkjin our Pulpits. And let me tell you, the Paffions thus excited differ as much from the other, as the motions of a Man do from them of aBeaft,ifnot more* For one may be affected, whether he will or no by Objects of Senfe : but Reafon convinces and moves us by fober confi- deration, and laying things ferioufly to heart. And/wifh heartily you would examine whe- ther the caufe why you was no more affecled with our preaching,was not this, That you took ho pains with your felf ; u e. you would not be a Man, but was contented to be moved in Reli- gion like a meer Puppet, whofe motions de- pend upon the power of other Agents , and not its own. NX. You need not have made fo long a dif* courfe in this bufinefs ,- for when you have faid as much as you are able, /can anfwer all in a few words : Affuring you that lam moved with the things they fay jfor I think they are the molt foul-fearching Preachers in the world. C. It is an hard matter to understand your Parafes.If you mean AichPhreachers,whofeDo- ftrine touches the Confcience, letting men fee their duty and their fins plainly ; I think none are to be preferred before ours. N t C. Pray, Sir } confide* what you fay. C. What between a QoHformifl^ &£ \j A C. What! have faid,I fay again. And/muft add, that / have caufe to believe fomeofyou have left our Congregation, becaufe the good man's Doctrine fearched into you too far, and came too near the quick. NX. / underitand you nor< C.Have you never heard any man fqy,that he would come no morcto Church,becaufe his Mi- nister ript up his fins of Disobedience to Govcr- oours,f a&ion t Rebellion, Reviling Superiours, rafh Centering and judging their actions, im- modeftand malapert Difputing with Spiritual /nftru&ors, Meddling with other mens matter, Gadding from houfe to houfe, to hear or tell news,if not to talk againft theCourt andChurch* with other fuch like things that are too com- mon, but not commonly reproved ? K. C. Yes, /cannot deny it. C. Then no doubt he fearch'd to the bottom of that man's heart; who finding himfelf wound- ed, inftead of fecking for a Cure, kick'd at him that (hoc the arrow, and flung dirt in hw hct • calling him Railcr and Reviler, v :^n n< only tsldhim the plain truth. &.C, You are angry. C No truely, /am only defirous you (hould underftand things nakedly,as they are in them- felvcs. V. C. Do you think that our Minifters do not inform their Auditors of the danger of thel'e C C c /£ *8 A Friendly Debate C. If they did, I believe they would have fewer come to hear them, N* C. You are uncharitable. C. Nofuch matter. I know many of thofe thac flock r o them are not able to bear fuch Do- clrine* But they call thofe plaip and fearching jhersj th* rtpap other mens faults, and Come kind of fins, which t \i$ Godly moil bewail and p!a vl : for Igfiaiftcei D^adnefsof heart in oV-y f Spiritual pride, and unprofitablenefs undei Ordinances, though fo powerfully admi- Vtee{| ri and are not thefc home- trjrtj . « . ;: - Idmifck many of tb^e you call Godly are tr - b e<3 i r iq her difcsfes } which had need be fook'd nan ow . ifter. And bcfides 5 methinks y >.i &4inHteri l 4P «:»o plainly commend them- felvefc when they tell you what powerful Ordi- nances vol ljv£ underhand how you are fed with afeailof Fat things* whilft <^herpoor Souls are eyeq Lh vM iq other Congregations > mean- ing \.h as our*. N. C . You might as well fay that they com- mend us, wlien they caution us fo much againft Spiritual pride. C You are in the righr. It doth too palpably fuppofe you to be endowed with great gifts • and fo is apt to put you into e high conceit of your ftlves, notwitbftanding all their cautron againft between a Qonformifl^&CQ. ip againft it. And therefore my opinion is,that they had better teach you all your duty; and then finding how (hortyouare of Perfection, that will be a more effe&ual means to keep you hum- bk,than ali their Declamations againfl Spiritu- al Pride- N* They do tell us our duty. And 1 atifure you fome preach even againftthofe fins which you fay we do not love to hear of. C. VI take your word for if. But they are rare men, and they do it rarely. I could tell you alfo of one, that doing thus, was forbid by his Auditors to proceed^f he intended to have their company. iV. C. Methinks you fhould not fufpefl any of them to be guilty of negligence in thefe matters: Do you not take them for confeientious and good men ? C. Yes truly, I think there are many good menarnongft them. But, to deal plainly witri you,I look upon molt of them as very imperfect and in a lower form of goodnefs. M.C. Strange I What reafon have you far this f C. They do not govern their Pafllons , nor reverence their Governours nor Elders, nor fear to make a Schifm in theChurch ; be;ng furi- oufly bent to follow their own fancies,impatient of Contradiction, conceited of their own Gifts* too ready to comply with the Peoples follies , apd to humor them with new and aficfted phra- lo A Friendly Debate fcs ; n iy,to gratifie their rudenefs with moft un- fa voury, clown \(h and undecent Cxprcffions,not only in their preaching, but in their Prayers- And efpecially they feem to me to have little and narrow fpirits, wanting that great Charity which our Saviour commends, and confining Godlinefs to a fmal Sea and Party. n.C. O Sir,how much are you out of the way ' /f they were not the bed men in the world,thcy could never come fo clofe to us in thcirPrcach- ing, and fcarch the very Heart , as we find they do. C, Now that you repeat this again, you force me to tel you that,which otherwife / would have concealed. N.C. What's that. C. That if we may judge of the Sermons you hear by thofe we fee in pant ; / think many of them are fo far from fearching into the Confci- ence, that they rather dally and play with mens child ifli phanfies. tf. C. Are you in good earned ? C. Why fhould you make a doubt of it? You know / do not ufe to jeft. %C 9 /do not believe you can give me one inlt3nce of any fuch thing. O Yes but / can,and more than one* What do you think of the Do&rine of Repentancclh there any thing deferves to be more gravely handted? or can one ever expert to be piere'd & wounded by that Preacher,who treating of that argument doth between a Conformist, &c. 2 1 doth not touch the Soul in a lively manner ? N. C« I acknowledge it is a moft weighty Doctrine : but what then? C. I'll tell you, I never met with any TreatiTe (in fo ferious a fubjeft) more lighf and toying, than a Book which came lately out of the Prefs, called The Dotlrine of Repentance, ufefulfur thefe times > by T. W. N. C. You are prejudiced. C. I doubt you are ; and yet I believe I fhall make you of my mind. Look'you ; here is the book, which one lent me. What think you of the very beginning of the Epiitle to the Reader? Faith and Repentance are the two -wings by which we fly to Heaven* Doth not this look like a School- boyes phrafe,which he applies to every Subjccl? For at another timer, w. would tell you j That Prayer and Meditation are the tw$ wings whereby we fly to Heaven, Now as for IJf - pentance,he tells you prefentfy it is a Purgative, and bids you not fear the wording of this Pill .That moifl tears dry up the rheums offirt) and quench the wrath of God. N'C Let the £piftle alone, and go into the body of the Book : there you will find it more powerfu/. C° Truly I have not read it over; but I open- ed it in fevcral places, and I met only with a jingle there, where I expccled a clap of thun- der. N- G That's becaufe you had not a fancy to fc C 3 CI 2* A Friendly Debate C.I affure you I brought an indifferent mind to it, being glad if good things be faid by any body. But I could not but be difgufted when I read this, p^ge 1 6. That holy Sorrow is the Rhu- larb to purge out the ill humours of the Soul, &c. N. C. You take little bitts, and mind not his continued difcourfe. C. Read then what he faith of an Hypocrite, pag. 89. 90. and you will think you are reading one of hi nut's CharaBers^ if you ever faw that B. o'sc. I expeded to have found him cut up and anatomiVd ; whereas in truth he doth butitroke him, and play with him. For thus he fays; The Hypocrite is a Saint in j rfhes of Repentance. N. C. Why do vou look me fo in the face ? C. To home* a C *f omi ft> &c* a* C. To fee if you didnotfmilc; ai> Jure you would do, were you noc angry with me S lay- ing open this Childifhnei's, Nay, do not frown. I appeal to your Confcience, whether you feel any more force in fuch words as thefc, than in a Feather, blown with a great blait againftyour £ace, or in a Straw truit with a itrong arm a- gainftyourBreaft. N.C. I cannot commend them,- but you ought not to examine Books (writ with a good intention,) fo feverely. C. I am far from that humor, and have only excrcifed a little of that liberty which he gives us in the fecond page of his Epiftle 5 where he tells us, He thought to have / mot fared thefe Medi- tations in bis Desl^ t but conceiving them of great concern at this time* he rescinded that fir ft rtfi-luti- on 7 and expofed them to a critical view. Now if I had a mind to play the Critick, as fimple as y<*u think me,I could (hew you that he ought to have expofed them only to the view of his very good Friends} and nottoCriticks. Ni C. That was only a carelefs word. C. Being one of his friends, I am willing to believe fo ; elfe I fhould Lave thought it an af* fetation of a fine expreflion. N, C. I wifh you had never feen the Book- C. So do I wffh t00| provided no body eife had feen iu But pray be noc troubled, nor in- terpret this as any difrefpeft to himjfor I fhould not have given notice of any of thefc things to C 4 you* 14 A Friendly Debate you, but that you would needs make Compan- ions* which arc alwayes odious. And you may make a good ufe of this freedom which 1 take : for I perfwade mv felt, it you would but com- pare tome of our Books, which you defpife,with this now mention'd, you would find there is as much difference between thejingling and rimc- ing of this and iheir folid fenle, as between the noiieof a Jews-trump, or Bag-pipe, and the grave found of an Organ. N.C. But have not your men that quibble, and hunt after little Sentences and fine Words, like him whom you condemn > C. I had no intention to deny that ; but on!/ to (hew that there is trifling every where. And t>.ertore that you ought not to be fo partially af- fefted to all vour own 3 and fo unequal to all ours. N.C. What's one to fo many,as are among you, fe Books aifo are licenfed to pafs the Prefs ? C. To anfwer the lait in the firlt place : I can tell n my own knowledge, that fuch i e been rejefted : and if any of i have chanced to'rafc.you fhall feldomfind I . ther grave Divine, much iefs c Mr Dunnes oi note, fet before r N -\ - r. - no more hath that, you have bee-: Frue ; bui bt he might have had , if he had pleafed : For I have fuJ Books that have had great Com- between a Qorfortnifl, &c. i j Commendations prefixed. And as the Dunghil- cocks have the largert Combs ;fo commonly the meaneft Books are fet eft with the largeft Praifes. N. Ci I perceive you ftiJJ perfift in your confidence, that you know more Books of this nature. C. Yes ; But I do not delight to mutter up all the folly that is in Print j and therefore fhail only take notice of one Book morejwrit in ano- ther way ; and (ir you pleafe)try whether it de- ferve the Commendation which the Preface bc- ftowsupon it. N. C. What Book is that? C 9 It is called Gbrift and the Covenant, &c t in ten Sermons, by W % B t which pretends to be full of Myfteries ; and, as we are told in the E- piftle to the Reader, gives us the very marrow and quimeflfence of the Gofpel, Upon which account he exhorts us to buy it, and makes us believe it is worth any money. N, C. And you bought it. C. No, I did not think it worth any thing, when I had once peruled a little of if. N. C. Wnat part did you perufe ? C. I thought that the Marrow I was told of might be found(if any where) in that Difcourfe which he calls the Way and Spirit / the New Teflament* Bjt as far as I examin'd it, I met with nothing but a great m'any bones to pick, and they had little or nothing on them. N.C. Pray forbear this merriment; and let us %6 A Friendly Debate us ferioufly confide* what he faith. C. That's my defire. And for your fatiafaftion read that part where he tells us?wbat the way of the Old Tcftament wa$,and what the way of the New is, I believe I frail convince you, that he is not only out of the true way, but alfo de- scribes his own way after a poor and wretched manner. ;V.C. Be not fo earned, C. He tells us in the firft place, That the Old Teftatnent Legal fplr it ferves Gcd upon the account cf Rewards moftly> *r chiefly, or only : But the New Teftamcnt ipirit doth not. Whereas there is nothing plainer,than that Rewards are pro- pounded in both Covenants to encourage our duly. And the Gofpe! urges us fo frequently with the confederation of the rewards it prom ifes, that Iqueftion not but he that hath them always in his mind, and ferves our Lord Chrifl out of thofc hopes,as his chief motive,pleafes him very well. For the true difference between the Covenants is not, that the one fcts rewards before men,and the other not; but, that the old Covenant made with the Jews propounded Temporal Rewards, and the Gofpel propounds Eternal 5 which are as often repeated in the Gofpel as the other in the Law. And therefore he hath difcovered a New-nothiing, when he faith, that toferveCsd for Rewards mo ft Hy y &c. is plainly Legal. Nay f it is abfolutely falfe. For if a man be moved (as I faid) only by hopes of unfeen things in ano- ther between a Qonformiftficc. 27 thcr world to obey God,and quit things prefent for his fake ; no doubt he ferves him in an E- vangelical manner. jV. C. Good Neighbour, be not fo eonfi* dent. C. Why fhould I not have fome degree of confidence about thefe things, feeing I am ma- tter of common Rcafon, and I have confulted alfo with feveral of our Minirters about them, who have made it plain to me 5 that the Gofpei propounds EtcrnalRewards in the Life to come, as the great motive to well-doing ? The moft that any fober man ever faid(as far as I can learn) in this argument is, that he who doth well only in fight of thofe rewards is in a weak eftate; but they always allowed him to be indued with an Evangelical Spirit. N. C. Then it feems you live upon your own purfe y and upon what you can tarn of Cod • which he tells you is contrary to a Gofpcl fpirit. €• It is fo. But that is an impertinent Con- clusion from his former difcourfe. For a man may ferve God upon the account of Reward, and yet not be fo foolifh as to imagine he can earn any thing of him. N.c* Indeed you fpeak too confidently. C, I am not of that mind. For I may judge what is confequcntly fpoken as well as another man. And I am furc thatConclufion is nothing to the purpofe : only he imagined this to be a pret- ty faying^ That a man of a Gofpei f pint knows be lives 28 A Friendly Debate lives upon a letter fur fe% than ail his oven earnings can ammnt unto* N. C. I wifh you would be more tempe- rate. C.Who can endure to fee men bear up them- felves fo highly, and hear them cry'd up, as if they were nill of the Spirit, when as there is icarce common fenfe in them, and not be a little conccrn'd ? N. C. Well, fuppofe there be one flaw in that Difcourfc, muft that make all this ado ? C. One flaw? Read the reft, and you will find that it is no wifer. For he would have us immediately after to receive this as another note of a Legal fpirit, that it is a fearing fpirit, put on rather by the Threatnings, than the Ptomlfes ; and the Gofpel fpirit rather by Promites than Threatning. N. C. And is not this true ? C. No. For our Saviour bids his Difciples again and again to fear * {Luke 1 2. 4,5.)not in- deed fnch things as ihtMofaicd fpirit did,Tcm- poral Calamities upon their Bodies,Goods, &c. but Eternal Miferies, which they fhould avoid, though with the enduringof all the hardships in the world. And whereas he fays, that the diffe- rence between the Difpenfalions if, that the one is terrible, the other comfortable; it is manifeftly falfe. For the Gofpel fpeaks a great deal more terribly, than the Law doth, to Hypocrites and Unbelievers, N.C. between a Conformift, Sec. ij> ?{. C. Therefore he tells you afterward, that flgratioHs Soul may befall of fears ahont Us condi- tion. C« This is nothing to his bufinefs. For he was not fpeaking concerning the fears,which a Soul hath about its eftate > but of the Principle upon which a man doth his duty. And,if I understand any thing, a Chriftian is moved by fear, as well as hope. N. C. Well , he acknowledges fc much when he faith a gracious heart may be full of rears. C I tell you again this \s impertinent ; for thefcarenot motives co his Duty, but rather hindrances and impediments , as he will tell you- And betides, he makes them to be caufe- lefs fears j for, he faith, they arc the fears of * man that {lands Hfon a rock^; and therefore he ought not to be troubled with them. Whereas the Scripture requires us to fear, ( Hebr.\ % \.) (and tells us there is caufe for it) left aPromife being left us of entring into refi 9 any ofusfbouU feem to c$me fhort of it : and to Workout our fal- vation with fear and trembling : and> to have grace to ferve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Mind this Jail place* and tell me if it do not directly oppofe what he faith. He perfwades you that a fearing fpirit is a Legal fpirit* and the Apoftle tells you,it is an effeft of the Gofpel grace, and fuch a thing whereby we acceptably ftm God. A r .C, jo A Friendly Debate N. C. You have ftudied this, I perceive : and I have not. But what fay you to the thirdjuhich is this, A Legal fpirit meafures the love of God by outward things* C. I fay it is the beft thing he fays 5 and he was to b!amc,thathepaffed it over foflightly and ha- fttfy, as if it were not worth his notice. /V. C. Is not the fourth as remarkable, vis. Thai an Old Teftament Spirit trades mnch y or m)ft> wait get be?) with conditional Promifes\ the other not? O It is indeed very remarkable : Fir ft y fer the paltry phrafe of trading inpromifes ; and Se- condly ,for the pernicious confequence of the Do&rine. N. C. Why? IsnotthcDoarinetrue ? C. No. For though there was an abfolute Promife of fending Chrift, yet there are no ab- folute Promifes which chrift makes to us. tf. C. He fecms togrant as much. C* That is, he contradi&s himfelf. TV. C. No * he faith , though the Prontife he Conditional y yet the Lord hath promifed that Condition eifewhere , and that without a Condi" tk». C. Then it is not Conditional $ for what is without a Condition is abfolute. N. c. You would make him fpeak Non* fenfe. & Do you try at leifure if you can make good Senfeof his wordi,whichmethinks are not much bet- between a Conformifiy Sec] r 31 better, thin if he had faid, The Promifes are Conditional, but without any Condition. N. C. Phy, Sir 1 they are thus to be taken .• The Promifc is upon a Condition s onefy that Condition is promiff d without a Condition. C. Now you have mended the matter finely • and made it plain*, that he thinks all the Promi- fes are abfofare. Which how well it agrees with their being Conditional, I pray tell me, when you have thought of it, at our n*?r meeting. iV.C. Do not you gram then tha: God pro- mifes the Condition ( upon performance of which we (hall enjoy tire Promifc ) without a Condition f C. No indeed ; for it i$ certainly falfe. He promifes (for inftance)Etcrnallife if we repent and effectually believe, and not otherwtfe* Re- pentance therefore and Faith are theCondittons of that Promifc. And I affirm that God no- where promifes that any of us (do we what we will) fhall repent and believe. But he requires us to conlider and lay to heart what is fpoken to us by his Son Jtfus % which is as much as to fay* that upon this Condition he will work Repen- tance and Faith in us. N. C. He doth fo. Bui though the Promift runt conditionally, ytt he tells us, it fhall be fulfilM nbfolutely, C. You mean, w.B. tells info* and therein corfeffes hedid not fpeak truly btforc,wh?.n be faid the Promifc was without a Condition? for now 3* A Friendly 'Debate now lie acknowledges that it runs conditionally. And to fay it fliall be fulfilled abfolutely, is to fay, that it feems to be Conditional, but is not, NX. Well ; methinks there is much of My- fterv in what he delivers. C That is ,ydu do not underftand it, but it founds prettily, and fo you like it. And fo I be- lieve you do the neat, (for the fame reafon ) wherein he tells you, that in tbeOld Teftament they came to Chrift by the Promife y btit now we ante to the From it's time to lay afide this Book. C m You do difcreetly ? For if you had conti- nued your difcourfe about it, I fhould have dis- covered a world of Follies to you. jV. C« The things of God are Foolifnnefs to the natural man a C. Thefe -ire not the things of Gcd y vox the things of anuwnthhtv vbutchildifhFancieSjOX as we commoly fpeak, New-nothings, N. C. I know they appear fo to the na:ural man. JV. I do not judge according to meer Nature but by the direction or the Spirit which inftru- #ed the Apoftlesjand therefore you apply that Scripture foolilhly to me. MC You ufeyour reafon too much. C. You have fome reafon tofayfo, for if I had ufed it Jefsj things had not appeared fo ridiculous. N'. C. By that time your heart hath lain fo long 4-foke in the blotd of Jeius as his hath done, we fhall hear other language from you. C. You are taken, I perceive, with that new 'phrafe in the Epiftle to the Reader, and only becaufe it h new : elfe it would feem very irre- verent, being :?ken from aToaft in a Pot p£ AIe ; or 3 5bp in a Dripping-pan ; a great deal D more j4 A Friendly Debate more fie for a Preface before a Book of cne of thofe you call Old Solars, then offuch a Reve- rend Author. A 7 . C. Yon are merry, Sir. C. Truly,, I do not make my felf merry with any mens Sins : but at their little foolifli Me- ntations, how can one chufe but {mile? But could he not as well have faid,thac he had a long rime thought of the efficacy and virtue of the Blond of Ckr.ift\ or, that he was much acquain- ted with the Love of Chrift in dying forus? Why to fay that he had Umhng af,ke in his blood, is as abfard as if he had told us that he had Imn long r \n the Beams of the Sun of Righ- ifoefs ; or reading himfelf before the Fire of the D vine Love. A T . C. Pray, Neighbour,forf*ear thefe expref- fio .-;. C. I was o log to (hew you that we have as good a faculty, as you tocoyn new Words & Phrafes,if we would take the liberty. B-it I will forbear,lf you will but be content up- on this occafion to lookback with me, end con- fider how all the Nation comes to be cvemn with f j ! ! •'. yV. C. How, I pray yon ? C. /s fcrfpn as you had cad out of doors all was Old among us ; if any Fellow did bu t on fome new Sc pretty Fancy in Religi- on, or forrie lufoal Exprefsion, or per— fwell ng wbfds of Vanity * prdenrly he between a Qonformifl, &c. 35 he fet up for a Preacher, and cry'd up himfelf for a man that had made fome new difcovery. And fuch was the confidence of thefemen,both in inventing flrange Language 3 and proclaiming their great Difcoveries every where* that the poor people were perfwaded,the Nation never knew what Communion with God meant till this time.Now they thought the happy days were come,when the Spirit was powered out,the My- fteries of the Gof^el unfo!ded 3 Free grace held forth,the Anointings and Sealingsof the spirit vouchsafed, C£r//£ advanced to his Throne ; and when they fhoulci have fuch Incomes, in dwel* lings, and I know not how many other fine things, as never was the like heard of before. For one man comes and tells them oitht fir earn- ings of ChrliV/ Blood freely to finnners : ano- ther bids them put themfelves upon the flream of Free grace, without baying any foot on their own bottoms: A third tells them how they muft apply PrtmfeSi ablblute Promifes. A fourth tells them there is a fpecial Myftery in looking at the Teflamentalnefs of Chriih Sufferings* And be- caufe he found that every body had got into their mouths Gofpel Truths. hidden Treasures, and fuch like words j he presented them with Sipps of SiveetncJ }, and told them he was come to (hew them how the Saints might pry into the Father's Glory . and in fhort, bid them not be afraid of ?{fiv Lights^ but fct even their windows for any Light that God Jhottld make kno:rn to them, D 2 NC. 3 6 A Friendly Debute N. C. Sure, no body ufed fuch Expretfions as thefe. C. Thislaftis to be found in that very Au- thour you have laid out of your hands^^. 47. tvtio alfo puts the people into a fancy* that they have ReveUt ion and Vifions in thefe d.ryts. N- C. Certainly you do him wrong. C. You (hail be judg of that, when you have read the beginningof ihe next page. There he tells you that there are four times wherein you fhoald think much on Chrift crucified. And theflrftisthis, In cafe of fome Revelation or Vi- fion that you may be undir> Which he repeats again in the following page. 1 1 is, 1 good thing , fakh he» to think^of Chrift crucified at all times, hn when you have Revelations and Vifims , &c. 1: is a good time. From whence 1 conclude, that as he bids you open your windows for new Lights to come in , fo, when he thinks on't, he call upon you, as the Beadle doth in the Streets, Hangout yomr Lghts y Hang out your new Lights, N. C. Pray be not fo abufive. c. Thereis noabufe at all in this. For the fame reafon that made him ftep at fir ft out of the common way of fpcaking* may make him ufe fuch an m as this, U he light on it. h being illb a 'Jung peculiar to fuch mentopleafe people with fome new-found Words and Phrafesi which tfih^y iliould Jay afide, toge- ther with all their abufed Scripture-exprelhon, they between a QonformiU > &c. 37 they would look juft like o^ her men, only not (o well. N. C. You may fay your pJeafure. O I thank you. And pray look back again, and'-confider what followed all thefe gloriow DlfcQvertis,zi they called them»Since rhe people werefo much in love with new- minted Words, in which they though: there were great Myfte- ries concealed 5 tho/e men who would excell all the reft of thefe new Teachers kt forth them- felves in more pompous Language, and made a fhew of a more glorious Appearance of God in them- For they told the people of being G :ddtd with God 9 and Chrifled with Chrifl, &c. which ftrangelyamufed filly Souls, and made them gaze and Ihre > as if the Holy Ghoft were come down again from Heaven upon men. N. O Our Minifters are not of this ftrain. C. But they firll began this affectation of new phrafes; and no wonder if their Scholars endeavoured to out- do them- N. G They are none of their Scho- lar;. C Sure they all came out of their School. For they taught men firit to defpife fober and plain Doy toward God and their Neighbour,entertaining them with finer Speculations of pretended Go- fpel-Myfteries and Manifeftations > with which D 3 we }8 A Friendly Debate we heard almoft every Sermon (luffed : fo that he was thought no body that had not good ftore of them. Now as thofe you admire found they could win no great number of ProfeIytes,unlefs they left the old track of Preaching Sobriety, Jufticej Charity, and Godlinefs : fo their Scho- lars found in a little time that the new Notions and Language of their Mailers were grown Hale ,- and that unlefs they invented newer, at lead coined fome other Phrafes,their Reputati- on would be but (mall. And thus it came to pafs, that every one, driving not fo much to fpeak what would profit, as what would pleafe, dref- fed up Religion inaffe&ed Languageof his own making • and new Exprdfions>if not new Noti- ons,were heaped one upon anothe:' every year; till none knew what Chriftianity was. For at laft there arofea Company of fine Youths, who judged even their Mailers to b^ in a low and dull Form of Religion, flicking in the leggerly Elements ,> and the de , and the Oid~Te- fiament fpirit, as their manner of fpeaking was. Thefe imagine that nor only we, but you, know Jeftts only in the ¥ltfl>% and fland in the out- ward Court, and are not yet come within the Veil to difcern the Spirit and the My fiery y which they alone bring to light. Such a pro- grefs doth Fancy make,when once it is let loofe, and men are taught not to reafon, but to believe, there is no end of its Follies; and God only knows when this Nation^ which is overflowed with between & Qonformifl^Scc. j p with them,and is made fond of them,will be re- duced to a more fober mind, N". C- We bewail it as well as you. C. I am glad of ir. But I wifh you would be- wail the Original fin of 41 ( as W % B 4 advifes you in another cafe, I doubt with no good meanirjg^£.473-) w htch w i|] be found in your felves; from whence a great number of other Mifchiefs have flowed, and made the fame pro- grefs with that now named. For you firft taught the people to forbear all exprellion of Devotion when they camt into the Church,and decried the reverence of uncovering the Head there as Superftitious and abominable. And fo they foon took the liberty to come talking into the Church, and not onely to walk with their Hats on to their Seats ( even when the Minifter was reading the Holy Scriptures)but keep them half on when he was at Prayer. And then^be- caufe others were wont to kneel, or at lead Stand,in that holy DutyHhey would fhew their Liberty , or their Oppofition ( I know not whether ) in Sitting, nay in Lolling after a la- zy fafliion, as if the Minifter were telling a fleepyTalej not praying to our Creatour. /n fhort,there were no bounds could be fet to their Extravagancies » but they found our as many new Geftures 3 and odd phrantick Expre(iions,in their Prayers, as before they had done in their Preaching. afrCi For all this you (hall never make me D 4 believe 40 A Friendly Debate believe but that they are the onely Spiritual Preachers, C. This you told me before > and /am of yourmind, if you cell that Spiritual Dadlrine which is airy, thin, and fo refined that no body can feel and touch it 5 no not with his moil ie- rious thoughts, N.'C. Yes, /can feel it to be very Spiritu- al I C. It is an hard matter to underftand your Language. Do all our Preachers onely tell us carnal things ? K C. That is not my meaning, C. What then ? N. C* /call tt'Spiritttal 9 Xb diftinguifK it from Moral feachi C. Asmi our Minifters teach men their Duty, and yours do net: or elfe, that yours teac'n them onely d:ch Duties as may be done in theifSpi veen God and them- felves, but not fuch 3s are exprefled in Life and Minners,in our bodily actions, which tend to the good of our Neighbours^nd theHappinefs of the world, N. G / underftandyoa not* C Your Sermons are chiefly about prayer, and meditation,and Communion with God,and Believing,' N* C. Yes, Believing : Now you have hit my meaning. C But I was going to add Something to that word^ between a Qonforrnift, &c. 41 Word, viz,- Believing , without Being. Elfe you will not count it fpiriuial Preacnmg. N. C. Not if they fhouid in'lift much upon Doing. For there are more Spiritual matters for Believers to be intruded in. C. That is, things revealed to us by the Spi- rit fentdown upon the Apoftles. JV.C* I know not what to fay to your expliV cation ; for I never heard it before. But pray proceed. C.I know nofpiritual things but thofe which concern the glory of ourSaviour in the heave- s, his power at Gods right hand , his InrercelHon there for us, his coming again to Judgment, and fuch like ; which are proved to be truej not by humane Reafon , but by the Spirit defend- ing from heaven on the Apoftles. N> C. Well,and are not thefe great things? O And do not our Minifters treat of them as well as yours? N. C ; But none in affiritualway* Ours treat offpirittsjl t hi ngs ffiritmlly. C. I guefs what you mean. They treat of thefe things in fuch a manner,as not to bring them down to meddle wirh our Lives, or not much and chiefly,asff. B. fpeaks. Or thus, they draw matter of Comfort from them, but little or nothing of Duty. N- C« I know not how to exprefs \\\ But I alway find that they handle thefe things in a fvveeter manner than other men- CI A Friendly Debate C. /believe you. For nothing is fofweet and pleafmg toflefh and bloud, as for a man to hear how much a great Prince is in love with him,and how freely he loves him ; how his heart beats in Heaven toward him;and efpecially how careful and companionate he is toward him in a perfe- cted condition. N. C. And is not this very fpiritual Do- ctrine ?> C. Yes. But fettingafide all fancyj nothing is more folidly open'd by our Divines, than the power of our Saviour,and his great love toward his faithful and obedient D/fciples. 7V.C. You muft needs itill bring in Obedi- ence. C. /have been taught to do fo. For this great Lord always loved rightecufnefs, and bated iniquity : and thirtfore God hath anointed him with the oyl of gladnefs above his fellows S i. e. gi- ven him fuch a Royal Power in the Heavens, (Hdr* r. efpcci* s.lly the ai folate Prcmjfe : pag/jl. Now ilnce no Condition is to be performed by us,why iTiould any perfon take any csre about it?or why fhould any one trouble himfeif about doing that,which is already done for him, or, if it be not done, is promifed that i t fhall be done I efpecially (ince bis great work is (as you fay) only to clofe with the promife,to lay hold upon the abfolute pro- mife ? For no body being nsmed particularly in the p r omife, nor any qualification fuppofed in anv man whereby he may know that he is ca- pable of theBlefling rather than anotherJnorea- i n can be given why all fhould not apply it to ifelyes, though never fo bad; nay, why they between a Confortnift, Sec. 45 they ought not to apply it- IV. C. No, that is too great a boldnefs ; they muft be humbled and cait down — - C.Then it feems they ought to feel fome Qua- lification in themfe!ves 4 which incourages them to lay hold on the Prcmife. Though, if it be abfolute,h*s more than needs,nay,than is good: for they ought tohavenorefpe&toany ofthofe things, but only the Freenefsof the Promife. And then I pray why might not a Devil remain foftiil? N. C. But fuch as are within the Covenant will find themfelvs wrought uporr to forfake their fins, &c. C 'Grant that- Yet if they do, it isnolncou- ragement to them,according to your Do&rine* andtherforeiftheydoenot, it ought to be no Difcouragemenr.For thev ought not to take any- confidence to go to God becaufe anything they find in themfelvs; and therefore they may be confident,though they find nothing In them- fevles bur only a ftrong fancy that the Promife belongs to their Perfons. N. C. Though they cannot rake any confi- dence becaufe theyare fo difpofed toward God yet they muft be well difpofed. C.Whyfo? C. Will he have it fo in order to give them Confidence to hope in hisJMercy that their fins (ball be forgiven? N. C 64 A Friendly Debate N; C. No j the promife of that is abfo- liue. C.Then one man may be as confidentthat hath not thole D.ipolit ions as he thathath,believing that it is God's will he lhalJ have them when he pleafes. A 7 . C. I fee you underftand nothing of the Covenant of Grace • C* Yes, I under'iand that it was the riches of God's Giace, to make a Covenant offaving thofe Sinners who would obediently believe on his Son. For this was more than he was bound to grant;and this Believing and Obedience can deferve nothing of him (if being a Duty to be- lieve what he reveals, & to do what he en- joyns ; ) and befides,he gives us the means of Faith, and Helps to well- doing, A 7 . C. How can it be Free, if we do any thing for it? C, I have told you, that we cannot do any thing for to defcrve it : and what we do he in- ahles us ro perform it And therefore it is free ; becaufe when we nave done all,yet he is no way tied to give us any thing, but only upon the account of tris own moft gracious Promife. A 7 . C. You grant then his Promife is from ineer Grace. C No body doubts of it that /know of. But this Grace is not fo fond as to make the Promife to any one t even whilil he remains in a ftatc of Sin Such a Favour between a Qcnfcrwifl^c. 74 Favour God had to Sinner^as freely»wd with- out any difpofi.tion in them, to fend his Son and his Holy Spirit : but unlefs they become like to his Son, they are taught by him not to prefume he will give all the Biefsings the Gofpel promi- fes;for they are made only to the faithful. N. C. God will make themfo. C. But according to your Opinions, that is a thingwhich they nted not conlider when they apply the Promifes of Salvation to themfeJves- For you fay, they mud have refpetl to abfolute promifes* which you know have nothing to do with any Qualification for this Favour. In pur- fuance of which Doclrinesyou perfwade your felves that Affurance of God's Love isnotto be grounded upon any GraceWought in us ; but only upon the Teftimony of the Spirit, per- fwading us that our Perfons are beloved, and that the Promifes are made to us. N. C. This is Antinomianifm. C. May be fo s and your Minifters may be jlntinotnians, and yet not know it. N.C^Call them what you pleafe, lam re- folved to follow them:for I think you will allow them to be the mofi experimental preacher ^\x\ the world. C, Stil you pefter mewithPhrafes which I doubt you understand no more than I. N. C. Is not the word plain enough ? C. h is, if you mean by an experimental Preacher a man that hath tried himfelf thofe ways which 48 A Friendly Defatc which he earneftly befeeches others to walk in : but then it will not ferve your purpofe ; for you cannot deny but we have men that lead as ftricl: and holy lives as any of yours can do. N y C. I mean, one that preaches his own Experiences in the ways of God, C, You do not well know what you mean. For this is either the fame that I now told you- or elfe, it may fignifie no more than one that preache? his own Fancie. N. C # Now it is hard to know what you merm. C. I mean that tells you ftories of Gpd's Witkdrmvwgs and Deferring*; and again 3 of his Shining* In and Sealing^ &c, A T -C, And do you call thefe Fancies? C. Commonly they are no more. For I obferve well , meaning people fall into thefe melancfaofick & d e fp a i ring Fi cs . & are recovered again into greater Cheart'iilnefs and Aflurance, withdut-any reafon at all; but only by a fanci- ful application of fome Scripture or other, which belongs not at all to their conditioned yet cads them down, or raifes them up. A T . C. You are mrftaken. they have Rea- fbn. C. If there be any that can be thought a fuf- ficientgreond, of God's withdrawing Jiimfelf, fare It nSuft, be fbafe provoking Sin which they have committed. Andyec / fee t ; cannot charge thferiifelVs with any volun- tary betwten a Qonformifl y &c." 49 tary aft of Sin, nor with any fuch Omiflion nei- ther, fall into thefe fancies (fo I mull (till call them ) of being forfaken by God. All the oc- calion that ever I could find for fuch black thoughts is,butfome fuch thing as this,that they have not fuch Inlargments as they were wont • or cannot go to Duty with that delight which formerly they took in it : which your Miniiters ought to teach them, are no Reafons, but only meiancholick Conceits; And if thefe be the things you call £xperiences, there are none of us but underftand them, as well as you, finding the fame Dulnefs and Heavinefs in our felves. Only we are taught not to talk or complain cf it, but to do our duty notwithftanding as well as we are able, and we fhall find it will not laft alway. N. C. You make too light of thefe things. C. I hope not. But you lay too great weight upon them,and make thefe fuch Marks of aGra- cious Soul, that it helps to put good ("but weak) people into thefe Humors; and, I doubt,make« them lay hold on all occafions to fancy them- felvesdeferted. TV. C. Pray fpeak no more of thefe matters* for I fee you are ignorant in them; as you are in all the great things of God, which are Foolifh- nefs to the world. Why do you (mile ? They are the Apoftle's words, (i C6r. i, 2? J C. I know it. Blu I fmile to fee how you prove that which you deny 3 viz,, that Fancy go- verns you; £ N. C* 50 A Friendly Debate N. C. How do I prove it? C» By this application of the Apoftle*s words according to their Sound,and not their Senfe. N. C« Why what is their Senfe, think you ? O That to a mere Gentile it feeraed a foolifh thing to believe that a Crucified p erfon was I made Chriftdhtt is Lord and King of the world. The Jem ftttmbkd at this,and would not receive him tor the Mvfsiaky or King of I[rael y who fhameirully hung upon a Crofs : and the Gentile thought thisi ridiculous perfwafion,whic!i none but Idiots would receive. But then he tells you what Gentiles and Jem thefe were 5 vi&. fuch as were meerly natural, and did not allow the te- ilimony of the Spirit, whereby the Apoftles proved this [Doftfine. For they who were con- vinced that the Holy Ghoft was in the Apoftles; and judged not by mere humane Reafon,but Heavenly teftimonies, made no fcruple to be- lieve that this crucified Jefns was made Lord of all : and herein they acknowledged the great Power and Wifdom of God to be made appa- rent. N< C« You give the oddeft interpretations of Scripture that ever were heard of. C- Every thing feems odd to you which is crofs to your Fancy.But examine the Scriptures feriou(l/,and you will find the interpretations which / iuve learnt to be plain and even. A 7 C I do read them continually. C. / believe you* and that you apply every thing between a Qonfortoiftjko* )i thing,as you fancy it will fit thefc times." N. CJ apply it as / fee thofe do who (not- withstanding all that you have faid)I take to be the moft experimental Preachers. For that which they havefeen with theer cyes^whicb they have look, td on> and which their hands have handled of the word of life 9 that declare they unto us, as S. John /peaks y i Ep. 1. 1. Pray be more ferious, and do not laugh while we fpeaic of thefe things. C. Well. /will. Bring me one of thofe men that have done this,and / tell you ferioufly / will become one of his Difciples. N. C. / can bring you an hundred that / am acquainted with. C Then the ftory of the Wandering Jew is no Fable* Would / could fee but one ( one, I aflure you, would fu/ficeme) of thefe happy men. /V. C . Would / could know what the matter is that makes your fancy wander androveon thisFaftiion. You have talktfo rationally all this wile, that /cannot but admire now to fee your wits go a wool-gathering / know not whi- ther. C/donotftray one jot from the bufinefs* / have heard (as / was going to tell youjof a Jew who being prefent at our Saviour's Death, and feing him hang upon the Crofs, hath everfince wandred up and down from place to place, and (as the ftory goes)remainsfomewhereor other to this very day. / al A r ays took it indeed for a E i Lie 5X A Friendly Debate Lie* till now that i meet with you, who give me hopes to fee an hundred fuch men, and that in London, N. C. You feem to me to be diftra&ed. I have nothing to do, either with Jem, or with Lies* C. A little, my good Neighbour, with Lies. For if your men have [ten the Lord of Life with their eyes, and locked upon bim<> and handled him ; then they were alive in our Saviours time, as that Jew is faid to have been. Or elfe he hath appeared to them fince, as he did to S. Thomas faying, Reach hither thj finger, and behold my hands * and reach hither thy hand, and thruft it in" to my fide. N* €. No : there was fome other feeing be- fide tha'. C. What? hath W* B> or fome of his Difci- p!es had a Vifion, wherein they beheld him and look'd upon him ? iV*. Cv You cannot underftand the things of God, C. Yes, as well as you ; unlefs you have had fome Revelation, which he prefumes you may enjoy. N. C\ There is feeing and feeling without tha\ C. You can tell me of none which we are ftrangersunro. If you mean, that you difcern the truth and certainty of the Chriltian Faith ; I doubt not that our eyes are as good as yours in heftoeen a QonformiU y 8cc. 53 in that point. If you mean, chat you approve of the Chriitian life, even from your own fenfc of the fatisfaftian and Happinefs there is in it> I make no queftion it as palpable to us as to you. Or if you would have us think that you have long & ferioufly meditated upon the My- fteries of the Gofpel, fo as to be mightily affe- cted with them/ do not believe that we are de- fective in that neither* but have look'd upon them, as long as your felves> and are as affe&io- nate Admirers of them. Af, C. You are fain, methinks, into a (train of Boafting, C. Ic is you, that have compelled me, as the Corinthians did S. Paul by undervaluing him. And if you think me a fool in this (as well as other things) I am in a worfe conditon than that great Apoitle thought he might be; Read his difcourfe in * for. 1 1. 1 6, 1 7, &c. and give me leave to fpeak to you a link in his words. You are a wife fert of people, and fo can be content now and then 10 fujfer fools gladly.- For y° H f H ff er if a man Iring youintohndags to ctr m tain Opinions of his own, which makeitnecef- fary for you to do or not to do that which God hath not tied you unto. // a man devour you, by living continually upon you; If he take of you, Gold, Silver, and other gifts whereby he muft be maintained; If he exalt himftlf, preten- ding perhaps, to more of the Sprit, and a more fpecial Miffion from God,than other men have- E 3 ftiU 54 4 Friendly Debate dill you fuffer him very patiently. Why then cannot you fufFer me only to bonfl a lltlt ; efpecially fince it is not of my felf, but of our Minifters which I hear l And thofe few words of S. Paul in that place fhall fuffice to this pur- pofe 5 Are yours the Mim/hrsof Chrift ? (/ fpeak^ you will think, as a fool) ours are more* For they know Chrifi Jeftt* the Lord,' s well as yours:they preach him asfincerely and feeling- ly : they tread in his rteps,and crucifie the fleih with the affeftions and lulls. And befide, ttoey are more peaceable, more obedient to Gover- nours, more refpe&ful to their Superiours, more modeft in their Inquiries and Resolutions about difficult Points, more charitable to thofe that diffcnt from them, and more defirous me- thinks to edifie, rather than to humour the people. For they do not feek to pleafe their itching Ears, and gratifie the longings of their Fancies with new-found words,affefted Expref- fions, and odd Phrafes i but tell us thofe things that concern our Saviour and his holy Life in plain & proper Language. WhichJ protelt fills me with joy and gladnefs whenfoever I think of ir. And it makes me conclude they have much Experience of the things of God becaufe they make me fo feelinglyconceive what the pleafure 2nd contentment is of being meek and lowly, fober and chafte,contenced and heavenly-min- ifld nbove all things, of having an heart ihrgedwith great Charity to all men,foas to be between a Qonforvnift, &c. 5 5 be raady to forgive, and to do good. This holy difpofition, you cannot deny, muft needs make them capable tounderftandtbeMindof God revealed to us in his Word; which book / obferve they are very careful we fhould under* (land aright, and not interpret and apply it, as I fee you do, according to our Fancy. For you conceive thatjbecaufe S.John declared what he faw and handled of the word of Life. (/. e. of our Saviour and his Gofpel) to convince fome that denied he was come in the Flefh, or gainfay'd their Doclrine ; you are able to do the fame- N. C. Well, I fee my miftake in that. But fay what yon will, your Preachers never had fucha Seal to their Miniftry as God hath given ours, by' converting thoufands through their means. C. More Phrafes Itill ? You mean God hath (hewn they are rightly called or fent by himt N.C.Yes. C Then all thofe men who turn people may fay that they hav^a Seal ofGudto their Miniftry: Sec, fay the Popifo Priefts,what multitudes we convert ! therfore we are fent of God. Behold ; fay the Quaker 7, we have a Seal from Heaven ; for fo many of your people have forfaken you > and follow us. N. C, But you miftake me, Sir • They do not only convert men to our Party,bui to to be good E 4 they $6 A Friendly Debate They really turn them from fin to God. C. I am glad to hear it. But may not a que- ftion be made, whether they are not converted only from fome, not from all Sins ; nay, whether they are not converted from one Sin to another? So I am fure you confefs it is with the Qanktrs , who make men fometime more civil in one regard, but more uncivil, than ever in others. N. C Sure, you cannot fufpecl us to be like them. C, It will be fit for you to examine your felvs throughly in this Point ; Whether, for inftance, many among you are nor converted from loving the Worldjto hate their Neighbours; from cold Devotion at outChurches,to a fiery Zeal againft our Minifters ; from Undutifulnefs to Natural Parents, to the greateit Contempt of Civil and Spiritual. Nay, is this never made a Note of a man converted, that, though he have a great many Faults, yet he is wrought to Antipathy to Bifhops, Common-Prayer, an innocent Caf- fock, and a Surcingle, as you are pleafed in de- rifiontoccllour Minifters Girdles? N. C.Truly,! think the badnefs of your Mi- nifters may have provoked the people to be rude to them ; the beft of them being no better,than Time-ferZ'ers. C a We will confiJer that by and by. Only let me note,thatyou cannot deny what Ifufpee't you guilty of. And befide, fuppofe there be a great many between a Qonformift, &cc. 57 many converted by your Minifters to true god- Iinefs, this is no greater Seal (as you call ir)chan we have,there being many turned from a!I their evil ways, to a more noble degree of Vertue, than you can commonly (hew,by thofe very men who did then heartily ferve God when yours too much ferved the Time. N. C, You will fay any thing. C. If you know, what is meant by a Time' ftrver^ and do not only pelt with words, I hope to make you confefs, what I fay. N. C. Try what you can do. C. I think we are agreed that a Time- ferver is one who complies with the naughty Humors of the time for his own profit, and meddles not with the reigning fins, for fear of offending his good Matters by whom he is main- tained. A thing which it is hard to find any man of note guilty of among us; but which it is no- torioufly known the molt eminent of yours were faulty in, in their time. N. C m J doubt you will prove your felf a fafe Accufer. C. Charge me with that, if you can, when I have done. And let me ask you, whether you are not fatisfied that the fins of Sacrilege^ and Rebellion or D [obedience to GovernoHrs^ are very heinous ; and whether it be not apparent that their was great need, in the beginig of the late Times, to warn the Nation to take heed of in- volving themfelves in that Guilt which feveral confiderableperfons were runing headlong into I 8j A Friendly Debate I think you will not oppofe me in eitherof thefe, and I take your filencc for Confent. And then I dare appeal to you , whether your Divines were not very meal-mouth'd>as we ufe to fpeak, and afraid thefe wordsfhould come within their lips f even then when they faw thefe -Sins come to their full groowth-Nay*/ affirm that you (hall fcrace find mention of them in their Writings, rnuchlefs was any thing heard of them in their Sermons.Which is an evidence to me>that either they had not found and good Confciences, or that they wanted Courage>and contented them- felvsto fwim along with the Stream- And in the firft place, let me tell you fomthing that hath been obferved of their unworthy Compli- ance with the Sacrilegious humour of thofe times. A worthy Miniiler of my acquanitance once told me,that your Aflembly-men or other Divines, who wrote the larger Annotations upon the Bibles (of the Edition An, 1646) are very guilty in this poinr. For where there is afitoc- cafion, faid he, to fpeak againft Sacrilege, and where other Expofitors are wont to declare the foulnefs of the Sin,there they fay not a word, but pafs it quite over, as if they knew of no fuch th ing in theworldThough he wouldnot impute it to their ignorance, but to their bafe Cowar- dife and flattering difpofition,which was loath to difpleafe the Lords of that Time. N, C.Sure he did them a great deal of wrong C I'll tellyoufomeof the places, he inftan- ces between a Qonformift£tc. 59 ces in. Firft, that known place AB % ^ % where he told me in that Edition of 1646. there is no mention made of their Sacrilege,and defraud- ing God of that which was devoted to him, ("though that was their chief Crime ) but onely of their Hippocrifie, Covetoufnefsjand Lying I mud confefs / have not the Book » and therefore you muft take his word for it But thus much /will tell you upon my own knowledge ; that having occafion once to look upon their Annotations, (and that of the third Edition,much inlarged) upon &>w.2«2J.where there was a fitter occafion to fay fomething of this Sin,than in the former place, becaufe the very word Sacrilege is here mentioned, / ob- ferved (/ well remember) that thefe tender- finger'd Gentleman would not fo much as touch it, but fairly dipt over it .For they only fpeak of the notion of the word in the Civill Law* (and that not directly) defining \uTbe taking away from the Emyer our any thing that his is m Would not this make one think that they were very much afraid to meddle with this ^inf TV. C. Perhaps that is the meaning of Sacri- lege, there. C. One can fcarce believe it>who confults the placejwhere the Apoftle reprehends a mantnat commits fomthing of the fame nature with tha'J which he reproves another man for. And there- fore I doubt not but, thofe who then cryM out againft Idols, and by no means would indure them 60 A Friendly Debate them in the Jioly place, did difcover their Pro* fanenefs and difreipeft to that place fome other way,which in all likelihood was in not bringing their Offerings thither,but detaining from God that which was his own peculiar goods.They that are learned, I doubt not, can give you other reafons. N. C. But I have heard fome fay, that things 3re not holy nQw 3 fo as they were then; becaufe they were fepaxated by a particular direction andexprefs command of Gcd 3 which was the thing that made them holy m C This is one of the mod notable things you have faid yet,however you came by it«3ut it will not do your Bufinefc- For what will you fay» if I ihew you that even in their Notes upon the Law otMofesjend other places of the Old Tefta- menr, they fay not a word of this S;n,of turning that toanother ufe which God hath feparated by his fpecial command unto his own ? no, though there be the faired invitation, and fometimes great reafon, to do it? N- C. I believe you undertake more than you can do. C. Thus much I can affure you upon my own knowledge, that confulting upon a time(a$ any man may have occallon to do) their Notes upon Levit. 25. 34. where the Fields belonging to the Levitesart forbidden to befold;I found that they were perfeclly mute,and faid not a word of the nature of this Sin amonglt the Jw/ibr fear, one between a Conformift } &cc. 6 1 one would think, that any Chriftian fhould thence conclude, that it was unlawful to fell the Bifftops Lands, which then their Maftets were about. N. C. The Text is plain enough, if any one had a mind to make that Inference. C. l y but forne Annotations on a plain place make it more obferved : znd I am fure they are large enough in their Defcants upon as plain words as thofe. And therefore why they fhould forbear to fay any thing there I cannot imagine, unlefsitwereafearofdifpIeafingtheParliament and many of their partakers. For as for them- felves, I believe many of them would not have had the Lands fold, but imployed to their ufe and benefit. N.C. Well, is this all? C. No, there is another remarkable place \n the Book of Jojhua, Chap. 6. 1 9. where God commandsall the Gold and Silver, &e. which fhould be taken in Jericho, ro be confecrated to him, and put into the Treafury. Notwithftand- ing which wc read that Achan purloined 200 (hekels of Silver and a wedge of Gold to his own private ufe, and was therefore feverely punifhed, nay ail the Congregation troubled for his offence, till he fuffered for itj Jo/h. 7. ai. And yet thefe men fay not a {)>\hblt of this Sin in their Notes on either cf thcte verfes u , though all other Divines are wont from thence to fhew how dangerous it was then to rob God, and take away 6% A Friendly Debate away what was feparated to his ufes. In other pi aces I amfure they oft make large Declamati- ons againft fome Sins, and in a manner preach againltthetn:andthcrforewhy they (hould not have a fyllable to fay here about this matter, is a great Myftery, unlefs I have difcovered the caufeofir. As for that place, Gen.qj* 22, I know you will fay they were Idolatrous Priefts whofe Land Jofeph fold not. But methinks they needed not have made anexcufe(as they there <\o)forjofeph's not felling them as if it had been an a&of greater Virtue,if he had. And methinks theyfhould have told the world pretty fmartly that if Pharaoh had fuch a refpeel: to the &gj- ptlan Priefthood as not to fell their Land ; Chriftian Princes & Governours fhould not be more unkind (if not unjuftj in thefedays, nor expofe to fa/e thofe Lands which have been fet- tled upon the Priefts of the molt High God. But above all* I wonder at their profound li- lencein their Notes upon £^£.48. 14. where one would think at lait they would have broken it; efpecialiy fince they might have done it pret- ty fecurely in fuch an obfeure place, which few read. There the Lands of the Levltes are again forbidden to befold:And by Uvltes according to their own Principles we are to underftand the Minivers of the Gofpel,whofe Lands there- fore ought not to be fold. I prove it clearly* thus,/n the beginning of their Explication of this Vifipn, they lay down this for a Founda- tion between a Qonformifli&tc. r 65 tion of their Expedition ("Chap. 40. 2.) that herein was reprefentedthe ample and flourifh- ing eftate of Chrift's Church, under the Types of the Re-building of the Temple^eftauratidri of iht Levitical Worfhipand Service 3 nad the Repoflfeflion and Inhabitation of the whole Land. Which they repeat again Chap. 43. 1. and in fundry other places* If this be true,( as they believed it to be) then, according to their own Rules, the aligning of Land for the Le- vitts muft fignifie the care that ought to be tak- en to fettle a Maintenance for the fupport of theGofpel-Minifteryand Service; and the pro- hibition againft felling the Levites Lands muft denote the pleafure of God, that the portion of Land or other things fettled upon the Evange- lical Priefthood, or Miniftery/fliould never be alienated from them. Now I pray you tell me, why would they not open their mouths at laft in fo plain a cafe as this f What fliould be the caufe,that they do not fo much as name this Sin, much lefs bid the World beware of it, and ftiM much lefs pafs any fentence upon it ? Do you think they did not know what is wont to be faid on thefe places ? Did they not undcrftand well enough, that if they would write conse- quently to their own principles before laid down jthey muft either tax that Sin in this place of EzskielyOr dte fay juft nothing?Why did they chufc the later, and pafs it over with a word • but only referring us to two or three places 64 A Friendly Debate of Scripture nothing to the purpofe f N. C. Truly I know not what to fay. C. I'll tell you then. The moil probable conjecture is that which I have made already, That they were afraid in the leaftcodifpleafe their matters who fet them on work. The Par- liament would have taken it very ill^and all the good people too? who, to fave their own purfes, were content the Churches Lands fhould be fold to carry on the War which they had ille- gally begun. N. C» I hope bene r, and that you will not now take occafton from the mention you make of the War, to fall into a Declamation againft the other Sin of. Rebellion* C Since you love not to hear any thing of it, I am content to be as filent as your Minfters were wont to be : only let me tell you, I have obferved feveral other things which thev for- bear, not becaufethey think it is their Duty, but for fear of difpleafing a party* N. C» What do you mean ? C. I mean, k was for this reafon that they feldom or never (fomeof them) ufed the Loras Prayer, becaufe the people had been taught on a fudden to abhorr Forms,without remembrin* them that the Lord's prayer was a Form* It was not fit to tell them that,for fear they fhould have continued to like other Forms of prayer for its fake; I abferve alfo, that ilill they will by no means give the title of Saint to one of the Apoltles between a Con/or mi ft, &c, 6$ Apoftlesor Evangeliftsofour Lord, (though I think they will call them HV^which is the fame) no not when they reade a Text out of their Writings. For wnich I can conceive no other reafon, but their good Dame* and Mafters do not like it. They are afraid that it is Popifl). And rather than thefe Men- fewer s will be at the pains of convincing them of their er- rour, or, to fpeak more properly, rather than, venture the danger of lofing them, (for many might in a paffion fly off,if they heard the name of Saint given to any but themfelves) they will not offend their tender ears by naming thac abominable word. And were it not that I am loath to try you, I could inftance in a great ma- ny other things wherein they are mecr Slaves to the humours of the people, andferve the time ± not daring to fay thofe things, or to ufe thofe words, which they know are fit to be (aid and to be ufed, meerly becaufe many people will run away from them, N N C. There are a great many, I am certain, that were once ours, and now are fain away to you* 1 hofe I abhor a great deal more than your old Clergy, and cannot endure to hear them C, Suppofe there be many fuch- yet there is no reafon for this ilrong Antipathy againft them. for it is like they were very young when they followed you • and may fay, as S. /'**/, whtn I yrai a CmU % J f pake as a Child, I nndtiftocdas a (. bild } 1 thought (or rtafoned) hs a Child: hut tfhtn between a Conformift y &cc. 6y "»Un l bccamt a man , lfut away childijh things. N.C Belike you think ours a Childifh Reli- gion. C. Perhaps I do, and, for any thing yoa know, can prove it to be fo in great part, BuC that's not our bufmefs now-, which ii oncly to (hew, that it's no (hamc for any body to think and fptak otherwife than he did, provided his Judgment be grown more ripe and manly. What? Do you think Youth mud never exam- ine the Principles they receive with their Educa- tion, nor judge for themfelves when they arc able ? If you would not have them follow their Matters or Parents, as Horfes and Afies do thofe that lead them in a firing, why do you blame any of them that confider who it is that leads him , and whither he is carrying him ? nay, that ior- fekes the track in which he hath always walked s when he finds it to be wrong t N.C. Nay, a great many Old men have for- faken their Principles, who, one would think, fhould have had more wit or more honetty , C. They have never the lefsfor that: For I hope you are not too old to learn. And this is all you can make of it, that once they thought it unlawfull to do according to their prefene pra&ice • but dajs b*ve uught them wifdom , and given fatisfaftion to their Scruples* Befide,the extravagant Freaks and the mad fantaftick Tricsk which were plaid in Religion 5 whcn you reigned, ? 2 opened (>% Friendly Debate opened many mem eyes(whom you bad deluded by fair fpeeches and goodly pretencei) to fee their folly in condemning and cafhiering Biftiops and Common Prayer* N.C. You have an art of Apologizing for any thing. C. Let'i fee your skill in that art -, for I would fain try it a little. What will you fay ,if none be found fo guilty of this which you charge us with- all as your own dear fel ve$ ? N.C. I will fay , that you can prove any thing. C. No: job flial lonely fay, that they have the leaft reafon of all other men to talk againft forfaking Principle§ ; who have done it fo notorii oufly, iV.CI cannot but wonder at your confidence. Are not your very Senfes convinced of the con- trary ? Do you not fee how they fufler for their Conferences^ how they arc deprived of their Li- berty, and have loft good Benefice** If they would have forfaken their Principlcs,what need- ed they have been thus deprived ? C. You need fay no more/or I know it alf be- forehand. Bat pray be not you too corfid«nt,nor trk?it ill that I ftopyou rbus in your carier ; fince I think you will fpend your breath to little purpofe Anfwer me foherly a few (jueftion$,ard i ben per haps you will thank me for laving yotl the pains you were about to take. Do you not remember a time when the Covtrlani was mpg~ wticd between a Conformi/}) 8cc: dp ruficd ai the molt Sacred thing in the world, next the Holy Scriptures / Did you never meet with fuch apaflage ai this in Commendation of it? This Oath is fuck, and in the matter and confc nutnee of it of ftah concernment*** I can truly fay f it is worthy ofus % yea of nil thefe Kingdoms, yea *f nil the Kingdoms of the World} If you have not,it it to be found in Mr. JVj**i Exhortation at the taking of the Covenant, Septcmb. 25. 1643. JV.C What of all this ? is there any thing we more fuffer for than that holy Covenant ? C. Surely, that Gentleman and a great num- ber be fide (who now are followed and eftcemed above our Changelings , as you are pleafed to call them) have long fince altered their minds, and reprobated that Covenant j or, tofpeakinhii own wordi, they have been found t$ pur pofe, nay more, to vow and to [wear, and all this according /c thefitjh >, fo that with them there is, uoVto ith ft ant- ing thofe Obligations, Tea, yen, and Nay, nay ; pag. 5 . A thing which he there accufes of great f Ufneffe and inconftancy, fuch as is not to be (hewn amongft us. N.G. What do you tell mee of Independents t Wc have nothing to do with them. C. Yes, but you have. For it appears by your difcourfe, that your Opinions now are a mixture of the Fancies of more Se&s than theirs. And as for your Minifters, it's plain that they are in part turn'd Independents J^i\\ic\\ is a grofte f 3 A pp.- 70 a trtenaiy uebtte Apoftacy from their Principles)having Congre- gation! in fevcral placea that have no Dependen- cy one upon another. N.C* They are forced to it, C\ If that be a good excafe, no body will want an Apology for his faults, which he will find there was fornc neceffity or other for. But (I pray J do you not remember fucha creature fome years ago, as the people called a Lay El- der, butbyyourMinifters was named a Ruling Elder * N>C. Yes. C. And you remember it was difputed very hotly, whether he were one of God's creatures, or of Mans* It.C. Very well. C And the Minifters whom you adhere to, confidently affirmed that their Ruling Elders were by Divine right, and ought to be admitted not onely upon the account of prudence, but as feated by God in the Church as Cburch-efficerj^ If you doubt of it,rcad the Vindication of Presby- teriaKjevernmntftl forth 1645?, ^ rom P 4 g*S 4» tOpag.$5. JHC* I know their Opinion well enough. C. But can you tell me what if become of thefe creatures ? doth not the whole fpecies feem to be loft among you ? what is the rcafon that we hear never 2 word of them ? N.C* They arc dill in their fir ft Princi- ples* ' C\You between a Conformist Jkc. 71 C. You grow witty. But it will not ferve your turn • for 1 fbould think the principles are loft as well as they. Elfe what's the caufe you have none of them in your private Congregati-. ons, where you may do what you lift ? Either you have deferted thofe Principle?, or elfe your Covenant, which I am fure you thought bound you to maintain thefe, Chufe which part you will } for either of them will ferve my tarn. N C. I never troubled my head much about thofe Seniors, and therefore do not much care what is become of them* C, But you fhould think what is become of your Minifters Principles, who, I believe, ar« content now to let the L*j Elders die ^ they be- ing but the creatures of men, and fo of a mortal nature. j\\C. It is r.o great matter if they do, and never rife again. C. Good. But I have another Queftion to ask you. Was not there a time when this was a Prin- ciple among your Minifters, that they fbould obey the Orders of the Afagifirate under whom they li- vid t if thtj were no: fin full ? A T C. 1 am not much acquainted with their Opinions in thofe matters. d You may know them then by their Prs- ftifei, (which I fuppofe you will by ail means have to be confident with their Principiss.) A 7 .C\ What •'radices > f 4 q f 7* A Friendly Debate C. I think there were Orders in the late Times that no man fhould pray publickly for King CHARLES \ and they obey'd them. They Were required alfo to keep a thankfgiving for the Vittorits at Dunbarr and fforcefttr •, with which 1 believe the mod, if not all, complied. Nay, that Thankfgiving was repeated every year at White- hall i and I believe Crommll found fome among you that would not deny to carry on the Work of that day. JVC* What do you inferr from hence ? C. That they have forfaken their Principle!. For now they will not obey the King's Orders. Mark what 1 fay : They would obey Ufurpen, becaufe they had a Power for the time being . and now they difobey their Sovereign, whole Power they acknowledge to be juft, and who commands things that are not unlawful!. As for example, they will not hear Common- Prayer, (at lead many of them do not) which they can if they lift: nor will they obferve an Holy- day, which is no more unlawfull to be kcpt,onc would think, than one of thojfe thankfgiving!. Give me a reafon, for inftance, why the Nine anAtmnti- €th of S(fttmber may not as well be obferved at the Third fometime was. NC. That day is obferved for fupcrftitious purpofes • to remember the Vi&ory of Michael over the Dragon, C. Suppofe it were. Is not that a great deal bet- ter than ro remember the Victory of Cromwell tA er 'the'JCfflf ? N*C. between a Conformift> Sec, y 3 iV.f » That was bat once, and away; C. Bat once all over the City and Kingdome -, yet every year at whiti-halL But why is not that lawfall to be done alway which we may do once, the reafon continuing Hill the fame / iV.C. You love to rip up old things, which had better be forgotten. C. Not I. But you force me to it, by refle- cting upon the old Principles of forae of our men, And how can one chufc (upon fuch an occafion) but take notice of the Fantafticalnefs of your mens Confidences, (at leait fome of them) that are fo nice and (queamifli in fome Fits, and at a- nother time can (wallow any thing ? N.G. I do not fee but they are the fame: C. That's ftrange ; when they arefofcrapu- lous now, and werefo little fcrupulous then : or at leait could do things with a Reluctance and Regret, and perhaps fome Fears and doubts in their minds in thofe days • and now nothing will ferve them but perfed Satisfaction. If you would have me fpeak plain,and (hew you the difference between things they did then and thofe tbey will not do now, 1 will take the pains. N.C* Save your fclf the labour, I have no mind ro hear more of it. C. That is, you have no mind to fee how they have left their Principles ,or at leait do cot ad ac- cording to them. N.C. They know their own Principles better than you. CWould 74 A Friendly Debate C. Would they would let us know fomething of them, that fo we might have a rcafon for fome other alterations we fee in them. N.C. What are they? C\ Did you never hear them cry out sgainft Separation, and forfaktng offublici^Ordinances f Were there not many books writ to this pur- pofe, when they poflefled the Pulpit ? N*C. I perceive whither you are going* They are not for a Separation from CkriJFs Ordinances, but from jours* C. Ours are Chrifi's Ordinances as much as any you frequent . for we pray and g.ve thinks to Godinhis Name. And we do this accord- i g to his appointment j praying onely for fuch tilings as he would have us, and no other. As for word*, I hope you grant that neither yourg ror ours know any ordiined by him but the Lota's Pr*y«r,which w£ ufe.and you oerhips do noc, Aui wfor Ceremonies, ! know chafe very men bit ween a Confomift, &c 75 men now feparate from us, who heretofore ap* proved thofe books which were writ againft Sc" paration upon the account of Ceremonies. And whatsoever you imagine, they do not think our publick Ordinances (as they now (land; are An- tichriftian, or that it is unlawful to be prefenc at them* Therefore I rauft have a better reafon for their Separation from our Aflemblics^or elfe you rnuft confefs that they (not we) have chang'd their Principles. iV.C I doubt not but they have a Rea- fon* C. No more do I. They have, without que- ftion, a great many : but they are carnal rea- fons. jY.C. Why are you fo cenforious ? C. I am content they fhould have other rea- sons : but I fpeak according to your concepti- ons of them. N. C. You are very Myfterioui on a fud- den. <7. Mcthinks the matter is plain. If they have found reafons to alter their Principles, rhen we have done. If they have not, what reafons can they be but carnal ones, which alter their pra- ftiee? N.C. I do not love to hear yon talk thuf. C. Nor do I love to hear my feSfta!kthus: butyouconftrainmctoir. And (I pray you) whether you love it or no,do fo much as hear me one wo; d more* JY.C. 76 A Friendly Debate N.C You may fpeak your mind. C. Was there noc a time when your Minifteri would by no meani hear of Liberty of Cow fcience ? Did they not cry out upon it in their pulpits and their books, and call it CurfedTe- leraticn ? Read but a Book called A Tefti- mony to the truth of Jefus Chrilt, and to oar ft* lemn League and Covenantee, fubferibed by the Miniftersof the Province of London, Decemb. 14. 1647. There you will rind that among other abominable Errors and damnable Herc- fies, (as they are called, p4£. 4i) this is con - demn*d for one, pag. 12. That little can be done t nnlefs Liberty of Conference be allowed for every man and fort of men to wfrfbip God in that way , and perform the Ordinances of Chrift in that manner , as fhaR appear to them mop agreeable to God's Word, &c. This, among others, they call a horrid and prodigious Opinion*, and tell us (pag.li. and 3 3 .) that it will lay the glory of the molt high God in the duft, if it take place, and raze the Truth oiChrifl to the ground.and over- throw all Chrift 1 * Ordinances, and together therewith Magistrates and Mimfters, and all Re- ligious and comely Order, &c. in fhort, they fay we (hill be difown'd by all Reformed Chur* ches, who will cry out, // this England, who co- venanted to extirpate Popery t Prelacy^ Superfttti* o« y Srhifm^ &c ? and after fo long travel hath fke tt'-fr brought forth an hidious AlonSler of Tolera- . tiun } between a Conformifl^ 8cc: jy 2V\C. I know all this as well as yon can tell me; and they are of the fame mind flill • for this was writ orely againft an Vniverfal Tolerettion of all Setts, which chey abhorr. C. I can tell you another (lory. They would rot lo much as tolertate five poor men ,who profef- fed to 8grce with them in all matters of DoSrine. Judge then what their Opinions were about Li- berty, when they would not allow it to fo few diffemting Brethren. N C That was a great while ago, and raoft of thofe (treight-lac'd men are dezd* C. No fuch matter. But if they were, their Principles did not die with them, but furvived in their followers. Ardyet now all on a fud- den they are vaniih'd. Now they are for Liber- ty of Confcience. By which if they mean onely a Liberty for thcmfelves let them fpeak out, that all their Brethren of the Separation may hear them. And withal let them acquaint us by what Tirle they claim this Favour more than the reft ofthe$eftsthat are iprung from them, who might take the liberty to feparate from them,a$ well as they tske the Liberty to feperate from Uf. And before they prove that it is due to them, let them firft anfwer their own Argument againft the Independents, (which 1 can fhew them in a Lttter if the London Mmifters to the Aftembl] of Divine >) which was this- That to grant a Tolera- tion to them, and net to othtr S(tlariis ) will be fount ed Ixjvfiicfi 7 8 A Friendly Debate KX. I perceive yoa arc of a ferftcnting tfirit. C You rather difcover your fclf of a turbn. Itm Ffirit, which cannot forbear to trouble and confound even our difcourfe. For that is not the bufinefs, whether all Reftraint of mens liberty be Perfection • nor whether I am for it or no ; but to fhew yoa that once your Minifters were of fuch a fftrit as you call ftrfccMting, and now arc not. 2Y.C. Then they are changed for the bet- ter, C. Yoa (hould have faid , Then they are changed, (which wa$ the thing we were fpeaking- ofi) whether for the better or no, that'i another queftion - And let them, if you pleafe, refolve it. I believe they will not con. feff they were of a perfecuting fpirit , when they were againfl the Liberty which they now clans. N-C. What, do you make them of no Princi- ples at all t C.Do not miftake me fo.They areconflant to fome Principles, particularly this,Ttaf all U wtii Ant that th y h, thwgh jnite contrary to Wb*t they dtd before. A\C. You are bittern C. Do yoa like thu Principle better, (which : -. T warrant foa)Tbu tb:y Art in C l ought to be tolt' krs trt ?*t if h : 4 Tvtj y anl rt~ '"-;;.'* .' Ittvntn .; Cmform\fi } &c. 79 : -.eifeyoa better : 7 -- -.,-..- » w p::til* 'a ;*?*! ]i* W.A) it *j 9iU UM^^t y.C. I told yoQ before, there ;s r.o dinger c f that C. Bat you told me no Reafor., as I have fhewn ycu, ' that's wor rg. A" CV/.'e hsvecr.t that w... r.everfuffer ai to come to C :.::::. r. :e, is .r.g as yojr V.iruiers V. hit terr.bie Scare-crow fhoald : v ; - : b- - u hive not cold me. I fnould n- Sow vou have revealed vour Un- 5 e.er. to: v. them for the x . £ Ill ) »* . ,iJ f ycu re- ::: of God his work, th'.j ours to A Friendly Debate of ordering Pricftt. If it be further ncceflTary to be approved by Presbyteri , and to have their hands laid on them ; thit is not wasting to oari, as you may there alfo be fads. Red. 2V*. C\ Bat the Bifhop layei on his hands alfo. G.And can this unhallow them 9 when they art so dedicated to God ? N.C. Yes fo I am told. C. Then you would fooncr believe what one of your own Party fays without any reafon,than what we fay with all the reafon in the world .- which is plainly partial affeftion* JV.C. Why fo t CM it not apparent that a Biftiop is a Presby- ter too ? though we think him more* N.C. You acknowledge a difun&ion of per - jfons in the Church,which is Anttchriftian. €• Nay, then I have done with you. Yob condemn all the ancient Church of Anticbriftia- nifm • and more than that, the very Apoftfed themfelves and the Evangchfts, who it is mani- feft had fome Superiority over their brethren. But obferve whither you are run, having once left your way. You mix the very dregs of all other Se&s with your own . and believe any thing that makei againft us t even fuch things as the Minifteryou commonly hear would bca- fham'd to fay. Firft , you onely difliked the Common tfrayer ^ then you did not love the man that between a Conformift y &c, Si that read its next you would not come to hear him ; and now you will not allow him to be a Minifter : nay rather than fuffer him to enjoy that name, you will venture to deprive Apofto- Iical men of their Office, who exercifed i*n Au- thority over their brethren. N-C. Suppofethey did ^ yet they werenoc Lords. C. No, nor do we ordain any Lords when we make Bifhops. That's an Honour which the King doth them, to qualifie them to (it in Parlia - roent.and advife about the Affairs of the Realm, in which they are as much concern'd as other men. 7V\C. If their I ordfhips would preach more, perhaps we might like them better. C\ I doubt not. For thofe that do,you will not come to hear. N-C. Their f.awn-fleeves offend ur. C» And why (hould you not as well take of- fence at the White Cap and the Lace which I have often feen under the Black upon your Mi* nirters heads ? N.C Any thing becomes a Godly man. C. I thought thither would be your retreat* But why are not the Bifhops Godly too ? JV.C They do not love and encourage good men. C. Yon (till fiippofe none are good but your felves • which is no great token of that Modcfty and Humility which we think neceflary to make G a God* 82 A Friendly Debate a Godly man. But fuppofe any of them fhould be fo bad as not to countenance the very bed a- mong us,but rather the worft-yet this would be onely the fault ot the Men, not of the Office. iY.6\ I have often heard that Diilindion ^ but I could never love your Logick. C. Yes fometimes. For you once liked a more fubtil Diftin&ion than this^and that was between the Kings ferfcnal and politick, capacity iV.C.Pray forbear to fcratch thofe old fores* But why do your Bilhops oppofe all Praying hj the Spirit ? CI thought you might come to that at Iaft,&r I fanfie it is the great quarrel you have with the. N>C* Verily it is. C. Then let me aflure you, the Hi/hops are the fartheft of any men in the world from oppoflrg Praying by the Spirit* N*C. You tell me a thing incredible. I fbould come fometimesto hear your Minifters but that they have not the Spirit of Prayer • which the Bifbops (I fuppofe) fupprefs and keep down all they en n. ath, Mtttrut[s % da. rr.QHr, and evil {peeking. Nay , if I thought I had doncainifs, 1 would a^k forgivenefs, noconeiy from God, but from you too. . N.C\ That is a good mind. But why d d you ufc fuch an harfli txpreillon . ; Is it not ore A]obs word'? 9 fi x6 jr. C.Ycs. between a Conformifl) &c. 85 C. Yes.but not in your fcnfe. For he would willingly have maintained his innocency 3 and have had his Cafe argued, that he might make it appear he was not fo guilty as his friends made him : Which is nothing to your purpofe • who, I fuppofe, do not intend (though you call fefus Chrift,a Dajs-WMn between God and us)to (land upon your defence, and juftifie your felves be- fore him. This you think too great a boldnefs,do you not * N.C. Yet. C. Why then may I not call it a Saucinefs in you to do a great deal more - y [ mean, to quefti- on God fo much as you are wont ,and to ask him over and over again what's the reafon he doth not this or that, and why he fuffers you to be fo and fo;*and how he can deny you this or the o- ther thin'g r iVC.Doth notT>AvU fometimes ask queftions? C. Yes, irta great agony of fpirit, and upon fome great occafion: which will not warrant you to take this unheard-of boldnefs* So I call it - becaufe things done in imitation of others, when we are not in that condition, and have not than occafion, and that fpirit alfo which they had,are veryfulfome; no better than the motions of a Monkey when he imitates a mam To clo thofe things alfo commonly which thofe great men did now and then, is raonftroufly unbtfeeming, Be- fides, his Pfalms are pieces of Divine Poetry, ~m which Paffions are wont to be expreflftd much G j others $6 A Friendly Debate otberwife than they ought to do in plain and fa- miliar fpeech. &nd yer you not oncly venture to ufe iheir Figures of fpeech, but you go beyond them. Like a man that having light upon a good Figure in Rhetorick, will never have done with it,but is always touching upon it.Then which no- thing can be more abfurd,efpecially if he heap a great many of thefe Figures together, as your manner is, asking God over and over again, (as J faid) why he doth not this or that, and when he will do it* Befides, that which in a great agony (as • faid) is very decent to be fpoken, doth noc befit a roan's rnouriS at another time • but thty that go about to imitate ir.do a thing unnatural. And the truth if, you feem to me to endeavour by thefe queftions to put your ftlves and the people into a great paflion^and a kind of agony ; but they do not fpring (I perfuade my k\i) nor anie of themfelves from any ardency of Devoti- on. But there is another thing that offends me more than si! this • that having ftirr'd up fome confufed pafBons in your felves by this and other fuch like means,you proceed to fuch an high de- gree of confident e in this bold way of Arguing with God, that you quite forget who you are fpeaking to For fome have told him that he little knew how his enemies infulted, (or fome fuch thing^and that if he did but know hc*v defirous they were of fuch a thing, or how much they would prize it, he would not deny them. N.C. Pray, Sir, hold your peace, or I will (top between a CaMformiHficc. 87 $op my ears. Yoa abufe good men. C. 1 tell yoa only what is credibly reported : and if it be not fo,I (hall be very glad* But I mail adde, that they take fuch a liberty of faying any thing to God, which they would fay to one ano- ther, that I conceive it not unlikely that fome might fall into thofe unfeemly (others perhaps will call them blafphemous) expre (lions. Are not you of the fame mind ? N.G. I cannot deny but that they ufe great familiarity with God. C. Familiarity do you call itfwould the world had never known it : For it is fuch a ore as hath bred in mens minds a contempt of ,God and Re- ligion, khath taught every body to let that Member loofe which ought to be always bridled, efpecially in God's prefence. They vent all their foolifli Opinions to hira^ they tell him News,and inform him how things go abroad • which they have received many times upon a falfe report : which hath brought fuch a fcandal upon Religi- on, that it cannot but grieve any good man's heart to think on't. N.C. It is fuch isyott that have brought Re- ligion into contempt, and not we. C. How fo, I pray you > iV.C By de [fifing ths Spirit. C. It is falfe We reverence that Spirit which was in the A pottles • and if we could fee fuch an one again, none would entertain it with great- er gladnefo We acknowledge aifo the power of G 4 the 88^ A Friendly Debate the Spirit of God dill in the hearts of men,efpe- cially of thofc who are good ; and we blefs God coruinuajjy for ic.But that which we deny is this, That cither you or we are able (as I told you) to fray bj the Spirit. &£}. Do you not then defpife the Spirit ? C. No ^ we fuppofe there is no fuch thin gas Prayerby the Spirit : if there were, we fhould reverence it. iV.C.Would you would tell me your meaning. C.I mean a prayer immediately di&ated by the Holy Ghoft,as fome were in the Apoftles day . JSI.C* I un'derftand you not. C. Such a prayer,in which by the Infpiration of the Holy Ghofl a man conceives thofe things which he fpeaks to God.Or (in plainer terms) [ mean, that the Spirit of God doth not now fug- geft to any of us(when we pray)the very matter and words which we utter* If you prerend to this,then thofe prayers are as much the Word of God asjmy of Dav /Vs pfalms, or as any part of the Bible- and ("being written from your mQUt^) may become Canonical Scripture. JV«C But we do not pretend to this. O I wifti then you would not talk as if you did.I am fure,your difcourfes of Prayer are com- monly fuch,that one would think you took your felves to be foil of the Holy Ghoft. And this I muft tell you hath made a great many fcorn Re- ligion, when they faw the Spirit of God intitled to fuch pitiful flu ft as they heard many vent with t&egreateft confidence. N.C between a Confomijt, &c, 89 7/. C. -This is their own fault. C» And yours too. AT.C 1 cannot believe that our Prayers ever had any fuch effect. C. But 1 can j and I will tell you how. You conftantiy tell us that the Bilhopa by prefcriking a Form limit and flint the Spirit. By which Spirit you mean the Spirit of God, not your own.From whence it follows, that you think (or would have the world think) that the Spirit of God fpeaks in you when you pray, and that you utter Its mind and words. Now many men hearing you pray fo incondderately and wildly, uttering mod abfurd (if not impious) things.yet with a mighty zeal and confidence, have been tempted to think that whatioevcr is faid of the Spirit, even in the Apoftle* da\s 9 might poflibly be no more than fuch an Extravagance and Fury as this. JV.C\ A moft fenflefs conceit. C. \ think fo too. But you have given occafi- on to fuch conceits in thofe that are inclined to Infidelity. JV.C.l hope not/For we oncly mean,wlen we fay we pray by the Spirit, that the Holy Ghoft a (Tilts us. C. With what ? Doth it furnifti you with words } N. C No, with devout and ardent afTe&ion** C. Thisindeedyou fhould mean ^ but your brags of the Spirit import more. iV«C.Pray,Mr,ufe no fuch reproachful wordg : we boaft of nothing. C.Welj] 5>o « A Friendly Debate C. Well, pardon me that word. ButfYyou do not brag,yec you fay thac you can pray by the Spirit, and we cannot, at Icaft do not In which you aicnbe foractbmg more to your felves than is to be found among us. A'. C. Yes. C. Then you mean more by paying by th; Spirit than being hfpir'd With devout Affcd*- ttos. For thofe you cannot deny we may have as well as you •, and unlets you w.il take upon you to fearch the heart,yoa mutt grant we feel them, fince we prcteft that we do. From whence I con- c!ude,whacfoeveryoa fay, that vojr men would fcave you believe that it is the Spirit which /peaks in them and by them when they pray. Which is a thing chat reprosche. not only them, but the very Spirit of God,and (as I bid before) hathatleaft confirm'd men in their Atheiftical or unbelieving inclinations. N.C. Well, I will not difpute this with you any longer. But teil me ferioufly, do you think that men couid pr?.y with that readmets and elo- cution, and lenght, if they were not mightily aififted by the Spirit of God ? C, Yes indeed do I. Their own fpirits wi!l fervc them for this parpofe ; if they be but in- dued w th good phanfie5,and a fufficient meafure of boldneK For it is a g.-eit ver cue(l aflure y in this cafe no: to be modeft •, though we reckon it a fingular vertue to be Co. N.C. I cannot think it poiTible. bitwecn a Conform ft > &c 91 C Why ? Neighbour, yoa rr.ay cake my word •: «. There arc many of our men could out- do you in this Gift (asyoaca! rayer,if they prould give tremic'.Yes theliberty ard ye: would rot think them irfpir'd, ! ?rr, lore. I mean,ihey ire able to fpeak fe readily srd Bn« ently fo errref:.y sr~d paffiorate'y ot ail manner *; thing? and to continue f .': is ftrain fo . rig, and dial rgorhswrg- that ifyou did r • v them, perhaps you would admire rereoft of your v.-. Then I ffcould conclude rhey had the 1 bat fappreff it C. So they have , but it is bo:h in you and us cr.e'\ a Natural gift.or acquir'd by Exercif^and Pra&ife.ar.d imitation v z Nowyoafpeak prophanely. C. I fpe kthefenfe of the foberefl of your owe Party, r as I veri y believe , who would Uy the (:.r?.\: they du: ft but deal plain y wi:h you. And (asfimple a? ' am)I dare undertake to jufti- he truth o k ~wh*: . fay sgar.ftany of [hem, if theyhavc - u e face to conrradid ::. A' .C. I feeyoo leave the Spirit of God no- thing to do in our P avers. C.W odd fee how you forget your felf. Did I no: teU you w ha: the Spirit of Pray- er w.-s ? how that God be ; ~-ow« it up>on us, when he gives us a (trie of himfdfar.d ofoui need?, a~d Rirsopifl cs holydenres, 2?.d pailio: longings after his Righ:eou/ncfs • which we (hould C. But this Form is not taken out-cf the Mafshec^ as the Common prayer is. . C.Then you lay down your quarrel at a-Jorm of Prayer • andonely fcruple//w Form now in ufe ; and that becaufe it hath been ufed in the Roman Church. iV.C. Very right. CVThen pray lay afide your Bible too ; at lead cut die P falter out of your book, for that's much in ufe in their Service. iV.C. You go too fad •, that is the Word of God,and therefore to be ufed-but any thing elfe ufed in the Church of Rome I think we fhould have nothing to do with. C. This is a foolifh exception. For the Rea- fon you gave me concludes againfl the ufe of the P/alms too, or elfe it concludes nothing ;, which I thus demon(trate» . You lay .down this Prepofnion, whatfoever u ufed in the Service (ftbe Roman Church mufi net be ufed fl **** %0 this I adde another ; The PfalmsivA other Scriptures are ufed in the Service of^he R Oman Chunh. Now- do you draw an^i, other Con- clufion if you can from thefc two, bu: thi? p H Thai $?g A Friendly Debate i hat thofe Scripture J muft hop be ufed b) us. If you like not this Conclufion, then you muft mend the fii ft Proportion, (which is your own, and you may do what you will with it;) as for mine, it cannot be mended , for it is certainly true. Nowhowwill you mend it, but by al- lowing us the ufe of whatfoever is good in their Service /And then you mull: admit of more than the Scripture to be ufed by us, even all that is according to the Scripture.- As our Prayers certainly are •, though fome of them are but Tranflacions of the Latine Prayers ufed in thac Church. JV»C. I will mend it in this manner : What- foever they ufe (except it be the Word of God) weare not to ufe it. C, It is meer Humour that makes you limit k in ihis manner. For there is (omething good be- tides the Scripture, v ■*'*.. that which is writ,faid, or done acco.dmg to it. And why they fhould make any thing of this nature unuicful to us by their ufmgit, (nice you confefs the Holy Scri- pture, notwithilandirg their ufe, nay abufts of ir, is not piophaned thereby, is paft my capaciry to ■ nrdeiliand. Cut perhaps you will bo more Annbleofwhat 1 f^y.if I tel! you^hat uponihcfe psinciplcs yon mtd rejtft the ufe of the CretJ, commonly called ihe /Ip'.fllei CrtcJ, becaufc ic it Profcffcd there in Divine Advice as weU as here. N>C. I would not willingly go fo far from, them. C Not 'between aConformiH y Scc. 99 C. Not go? youmoft whether you will or no, if you will follow your Principles, which will carry you fo far, and a great deal farther. For this is the very bottom on which your Dif- courfe ftands •, that whatfocver hath been in ufe by a bad company of men, muft by no means be ufed by us in God's Worfhip- except onely fuch portions of Holy Scripture as fhall be thought fit to be read in our Aflemblies. From whence it follows, that you may not life up your Eyes to Heaven, nor Kneel when you pray, nor N*C. Now methinks you rave. C. Pray hear me a little, and you fhall fee it's you that are wild, and not I : fo wild, as to pra- dife that which you condemn. If we muft not do what the Chnrth of Rome doth in the Worfhip Of God, then much lefs what Heathens have done and (till do • for they are worfe than the Roman Church. 7v\C.I think your Propofition is good enough 5 ' but who doth that which the Heathen Idolaters were wont to do ? G. That did the JtWfi Church, and that do you. N.C. Prove that. C. So I will- and you (hall have Scripture for it. The J efts and'yOu alfo Sot* your Knee* or Bodief to God, and the Heathen* bowed their Knees to B4sk you once again, that we cannot rightly ufe thofe things which the Church of &mi abufes ? fay thofe gctd Praters, lor iilUr.ce in. between a Conformifi } Sec. 101 in Engl ft t which they fay in L*t'we ? wear a white Garment without any Ceremony to con- secrate it, which they hallow with many Prayers, and Croffings and Holy water? Nay, ufethe Sign of the Crofs i: felf upon one occafion onely once, after the Sacrament of Baptifm, and merely as a token the Child is already become a Servant of the Crucified Jefus^ which they ufe upon all occafions, before and in Baptifm, a great many times, and that alio to drive away the Devil, and to make the Sacrament more efficacious } There are an hundred things more, prefent themfelves to my thoughts about thefe matters ^ but I am aOiamed to difcourfe any longer ag.iinft fo abfurd a Principle as yours. For in my judgment you may as well do fome things which the Church of Rome doth, as be* lieve fome things which (he believes j as I hope \ you do. Nay, you believe even what the Devil believes* And as it would be a very dan- gerous rule,, if any one fhould fay , Believe quite contrary to what the Devil believes • fo it is no lefs f but rather more) dangerous to fay, Do quite contrary to what the Church of Rome doth. N.C* I have not much to fay againd your difcourfe; but we have a perfuaBon among us, that Nothing is lawful to be done by you or any body elfe in theWorfhp ofGod,but what tsenjoynedby himfelfinhis Word. And then what becomes of your Crofting and Chauntitig H 3 *.«31 10 1 A Friendly Debute * a ud Kneeling, with all the reft of your Inventi- ons i are they not all Idolatrous ? C* This is thewildeft phanfie that we have yet heard, as many of our Minifters have (hewn by unanfwerable Arguments. For it makes that unlawful which the Scripture allows; in Which we find many Holy men doing thofe things (without any cenfure) in God's Wor- fhip which he had no where commanded. Nay, it makes the Worfhipof God impoflible • the Time, the Place, the Vefture in which it fliall be performed being no where appointed. Ip condemns alfo the heft Chriftians in all Ages till of late, who without any fcruple ufed Forms of Prayer, and fuch Rites as thofe about which there is all this ftir. And, which perhaps will moft move you, »I have heard our Minifters ftcw that this Principle doth condemn your feIves,who (when you take an Oath) do not re- fufe to lay your Hand upon the Book, and kifs theGofpd, according as the cuflom is* Now all agree that an Oath is a folemn aft of Divine Worftiip, it being an acknowledgment of all God's Attributes, and he being invocated and calPd upon to be a Witncfs and a Jecfge in the fafe. And if that be an sc*t of Worfbip, lam fure, Kitting the Cook and Laying on the Hard areas much Ceremonies as Sigmrg with the Crofs •. cuiwaid fgns (I rr according as in this #ery cafe, Abraham made his Servant put his Hand under his Thigh when he fw*are, though it were a thing no where commanded. But then confider again, that they and we may take the like liberty in other parts of Divine Wor- fliip , and fubmit to fuch Ufages as are appoint- ed by our Goverrours, provided they be no where forbidden. Or if, rather than condemn themfel ves, they will condemn good old Aha- kam, and fay he followed the cuRoro of the woHd too much : there is no way for you but to turn Outers ,and to condemn Clean cloaths when we come to worfhip God ; to find faulc with the Minifter for (landing in a Pulpit, for Preaching by a Glafs, for wearing a Gown, yea, a Cloak or a Cap, efpecially with Ears: for none of thefe things are by any Divine Command. N C* I fee you have fomething to fay to e- very thing. If 1 did not know you, i (hould fufpeft you for a Jefmt* C f That would 65 ridiculous. For if there H| be 104 A Friendly Debate , be any of them in Lay. mens clothes, they do net pcrfuade you to our Churchjbut from it ; know - ing that is the fureft way to gain you, if they can once unfettle your minds, and fill you with phanfies : of which they will at laft perfusde you there is no end, till you reft your felf in the bofom of that Harlot which you fo much abhor. N*C>\ fee one cannot weary you.But fuppofe thefe things be lawful in themfelves • I am toid they become unlawful when once they are en- joynM. C\This is an Extravagance wilder than all that went before.They are (o far from being unlawful by being commarded.that they become necefla- jy 5 to be done, I mean* iV.C I thought you would fay fo. But that's the very thing makes me think them unlaw- ful when commanded ; for it takes away Chri- flian liberty by making them neceflary to be done* C* Goodly ! what fine things do your Chri • ftians make themfelves, that mult be reftrain^ ed in nothing, though for publick Orders fake f Nay, mud overrule the Laws of Chriflian Princes, zr.d fhew the power they have over their Cotnmards ? Do you think there ever were any Chriftians in the world before you that held themfelves bound not to do a lawful thing , merely becaufe his Sovereign would kd\t it dene ) \l he d.d command a dung un- lawful, between a Conformift^ &c, 10$ lawful, there were good reafon not to do it t but if he is like to be equally difobeyed whe- ther he command things lawful or unlawful -, nay, and it be a duty to difobey him in both a. like • he is in miferable circumftances, and had better never meddle with the Worfhip of God, but leave it to be ordered as every body phan* fies. jV.C. That's the befl way. C. Nay, nowi think one, there's a way to make you do what he likes belt •, and you (nail hold your felves bound to it, N.C That's ftrange. £\ Not fo ftrange as true, Tor when a Priccehath a mind you fhould do a thing, if I were of his Council , T would advife him to make a Law that you fhould not do it. For then you would either fhew that you are peo- ple of a humourfom Confcience , that is gal* dedby no certain Principles., or elfe, accord* ing to your own Rules, you would do what he forbids yon. For as when he commands a thing about the Service of God , it becomes unlawful to be done ; So when he forbids any thing, it becomes unlawful to let it alone ^ your Liberty being invaded by him either way. If he would but require therefore that no bo- dy (hould wear the Surplice , or ufe the Sign of the Crofs ; we fhould fee all your Mir.ifters with Surplices on their Pack?, and all your Children ciofTcd in the Fort-herd : For elfe you io6 A Friendly Debate you would be retrained in your Liberty. 7V.C I never knew any man fetcn thing** about in thisfalhion as you do. The truth is, you intangle me, but you do not perfwade me. C I h?ve not much hope of it , If you feell not the force of thefe arguments : Yec }'ll try what a familiar Refemblance will do. We are agreed that the thing commanded by Authority, is not lefs indifferent in its own na- ture after it's commanded than it was before • but onely our ufe of it is not fo indifferent and at liberty. We mud needs be therefore agreed alfo that this Reftraint comes not upon us from the things themfelves , becaufe ftill perfectly indifferent, but onely from the Law, which ties us up: Now we fry, thac to this Law we are to be fubjeft , not regard- ing our own Liberty fo much as the Prince's Authority. You fay, No. But as the Law can- not alter the Nature of the things, fo it ought not to RenVain your Freedom in the ufe of them ; but leave that as indifferent as the things themfelves. That is, that the King ought to make no fuel] Law ah >t|t thofe matters .- if he ' do, rhen it is unlawfull to do whnhecom- m inds to be always done •, becaufe he ought to "leave you at Liberty to let it alone iryou p'.eafe, and you ought to maintain your Liberty, and by no me ms to pirc with i:. Put the cafe then ihuyya (being .li.ler of a Family) will hive your between a C 'on for mi ft , &c. i°/ your Children and Servants to come at a cer* tain time and place, &c. to worfliipGod. Iti 5 indifferent indeed in it fclf, and all one to God. whether it be at ten, eleven, or twelve a clock, or in what part of your Houfe they meet, or in what Cloaths they come, or what Poftures they ufe: But you appoi nt the hour of meeting (hall be twelve • and that they come into your Parlour, or Hall , or Chappel, if you nave that conveniency : And bende, you require your Servants that they (hall not come into your Parlour (fuppofe) in thofe Frocks wherein they Juft before rubb'd your Horfe's Heel% (which you think not handfom or decent) but in their Liveries, orfomefuch neater Ap- parel. And when they come there, you bid them fland fome part of the time, and the reft you bid them fit, if they pleafe, and at Prayers kneel, as you do your felf. Let me ask you now, Do you really think that this is any fuch Reftraint of their Liberty, as they have juft caufe to complain of it ? Would you think you took too much upon you in making thefe Or- ders for your Family, ofwhichyou are Gover- nour ? Or would you judge that Servant to be without faulr, and guiltlefc of any Contempt, who fhould fay, that he will come at ten of the clock, but not at twelve- becaufe it matters not which, fo the thing be done • ard he will not be tied to nry Order, but to do the thing? And ftrrofc ar.ctler freujdecrre ard ftf, that he I o 3 A Friendly Debate lie will pray, if you pieafeto come into the Sta- ble, but he will not come into the Parlour ; for it is indifferent where it is } and he mud not be confined to one place more than another. And a third fhould come and tell you that he is rea- dy to joyn in Prayer, but then it raufl be in his Frock, otherwife he will not ; for God may be fervedas well in that as any other Garment, *nd he muft ufe his Chrittian Liberty, and not be bound to your Fafhions. And the next (hould tell you, that he will fie in your prefence, or elfe you (hall not have his company: His rea- son is, becaufe it is all one to God whether . he fifprftaod; and he is not to let you be Matter of his Freedom in thofe matters. What would you fay to thefe people ? Nay, whir would you do with tbem ? Would you excufe them, and ac- knowledge your own guiit in making fuch In- junctions ? Or would you not rather treat them flfa company of faucy Clowns and ill-bred Fel- low*, not fie to be kept in any orderly family ? If you fhould not , all the world would hold you as ridiculous as they. For every Matter of z family is vetted with fufficient authority to fee finn commands as rhofe obferved. And when they tint will notobferve them.yec acknow'eige them to be indifferent things - y truly ! think no hpi] will think them hardily ufed, if they be turned out of doors. If they be Fools and Block?, that canno: underttand common fenfe ; then£(i conlefr) they are to be pitied • an J his good between a Conformifl^ See. lop good nature may work fofar as to bear with their fimplicity, if they beothcrways good Ser- vants ; But yet thofe Knaves that abufed their fimpliciry , and inftilled thefe filthy Principle!? into them ^ deferve to be punilhd, and put ouc of bis Service, till they acknowledge their fault, and learn more manners. Jufr like this is the prefent cafe before us. The Church is but a lar- ger Family, a wider Society 5 in which the King is the Father and Supreme Governour. ]f he make fome Laws for tfie more convenient, or- derly and decent Worfhip of God there, which in themfelves are Lawful, and declared not to fee in their own nature necefTary, but onely prr> dent Conltitutions • I cannot fee but that thofe who refufe to obey them upon pretence of their Liberty , and that God may as well be wor- ftiipu-'d without thofe things 9 do (hew them* felves as unmannerly, rude, and refra&ory per- fons, as the Children or Servants in that fuppo- f:d family, of which I bad you conceive your ftlf Mailer. And 1 leave you to apply this cafe to that . and to make the parallel complete in your thoughts at your leifure. ] hope it will be worth your labour, if you do it ferioufly, N.C. It gives me fome light into the bufirxfs already But ftill 1 wonder that ail our Minifters fhould hold your Forms and Orders unlawful. Sure they have fome bater region for it than I have* C. Alas, good man ! you are merely abufed. lor no A Friendly Debate For though' they are willing you (hould remain in the opinion of their Unlawfulnefs; they do not think fo themfelves. N*C* What would you make of them ? Do not I hear them conftantly fpeak againft them ? C.Nay,do you make what Confequences your think fit from it. As for the thing it fclf, I will maintain ,that thofe Minifters you hear (fome in* deed think otherwife) are no* of the mind, that it is unlawful to come to. Common Prayer, or wear a Surplice, or kneel at the Sacrament. 2V\C» You cannot make good your confident AfTertion, C» Why, Man ? 1 have feen them at the Pray- ers •, and many of them have profefFed they did not think the Ceremonies fuch great Bugbears that one need to be afraid of thenu And if this will nor do, I have a more convincing Argument of their Opinion in thefe matters. N*C. And do thefe very men now fcem te diflike the publick Prayers ? C. Seem ? you confefs they fpeak againft Forms, And we fee the open affronts they put ufpon our Service, by meeting ac that very time when it is performed : the realon of which I ex- pounded to you before. N.C* Therefore 1 always thought they ac- counted it unlawful. C* No fuch matter. You fliould rather think fomcthing elfe . and (to help you a little) conli- der whether their Integrity \>t fo great as you imagine. JY.Co letween a Confomljl, &c. m N.C. Yourmeaning,$ir? C. I mean^hcy do not feem to me to deal /ul- cere!'/ with you, in fufferingyou to live in this dangerous perfwafion oftbefinfulnefsof Com- mon Prayer and the Ceremonies^ when they i know in their Confciences they are not finful. And then to hear you call it Babble-babble, Per- nV*r, orfoch like vile names, without any re- proof, is dill worfe. Eut if you hear themfelvcs Jpcak againft the Common prayer and the Cere- monies -, there is the greater reafon to have a ve« hement fufpicion of their Difnonefty > y becaufe they decry that which in their Confciences they allow. JV.C I am not fully fatisfied of that. C. Why did many of them deliberate fo long whether they Ihould accept of Dignities in the Church, if ihey did not bel eveit lawful^ to hear the Prayers, and to put even the Babjlonifb Gar- ment (as you will needs call the Surplice) upon their backs; and more than that, to wear the very Rags of the VVhore^he Lawn Aleves ? If ic was fo plain a bulinefs, that their Confcience and their Covenant would not let them conform, one xvould think they fhould have profefled ic openly without any more ado. And therefore I conclude,! h't Paufear.d Deliberation was about fomething elfe ; not about matters of Confci- ence , bui oflnereft and Policy. As, Whether the people would take it well, and not laugh^at them, asfomary >s Sf pies got upon a VeuU : whether Jip A Friendly Debate whether ic would not be a fcandalous thing, rfcac if f not for their Credit and Reputation : whe- ther they could not hold fuch a Party with them in Nonconformity, as would balance the Fpifco- pal,and fo force them at leaft to a Toleration. In ihort.whether theyfhould notlofc the Afftfti« Oto Of their own party, wh-ch they had already made^ and win very little upon the ArTtdions of Others,whom they had fo much dilobliged in the late Troubles. Thefe were their fecret De- bates in their Cabals, the weighty Points that were to be ftated in thole Confutations. You, Goodman, think perhaps that they fpent their time in Falling and Seeking God to direrjt their Confidences. No,no-, it was no: their Con/ fcience, but their Credit , which then lay at Hake* N.C* Why fhould you think fo ? C. Ikcaufe 1 have heard fomeof them ac- knowledge they did not fcrup'e what we do, but thought it unhandfom for them to do it. Some-, times they put it in a more Religious phrafe, and £iid t it would give a great fcandal to the world, who would think the worfe of the Profcflion of Chriftiamty. But the meaning was in plain Eng- 1'ifhjklt they were afnamed to con ft Is their Ei - tor, and to kt up thole things again which : had ra fiily pulled down, N*C, And would you not have men to con* fult their Credit? f ■ Yci, but not fo much as the peace of the Cfiiircl between a Conformiftjkcl 1 1 j Church of God. We ought to deny our felves, and be content to be put to fhame for God's fake ; (which is indeed true Glory) and there is little of God among them that feek not Peace, though on thofe terms. Befides, there can no account be given of their Behavior fince in cherifhing this Fancy among you,(or furTer- ing it to grow)thatConformity is unlawful, ua- Ms it be this ; that they think it will make more for their Reputation among you, if you believa it wasConfcience,not care of their own Credit & E(Hmation,that kept them fromConforming N. C. You are the fevereft man that ever I knew, and love to fearch too far into the rea- fon of things. C, Would you would do fotooj for then, you would foon be of my mind. N.C. No, not as long as one Scruple re- mains in my mind. C. What's that? N. C. I have heard fome of them call yours, Will-worfhip, which the Apo/Me condemns, ( Col. 2. nit. ) C. Very likely they might, and not under- stand what they {aid. N.C. Do you believe they would,like brute Beafts, fpeak evill of things they know not ? C. I will not cenfure them of that, but this J can tell you,that one of your Miniiters confef- fed to a fober perfon of my acquaintance , that he had never fo much as read over the I Com- ^14 A Friendly Debate Common-Prayer-book in all his life ; and yet he was no Youngfter. Perhaps there may be more fuch : and then if they fpeak againft it, judge of them as you fee Caufe. N. C. I believe fuch men diflike it without looking into it ; becaufe, as I told you, it is Will'WorJbipi a meer invention-ofman. C. That's a word of S. Paul^ whom no doubt they have read $ but I queftion whether they underltood him. N. C. Why fhould you doubt it? C Becaufe,if we take the fenfe of the Word, not from Fancy, but from the matter where- with it is connected, it makes nothing for your purpofe, but rather much againlt you. N. C. Can you tell better than they ? C. I do not fayfo- but I have heard one of our Minifters give fuch an Explication of die place as fatisfied me, that you ufe a Weapon which wounds your felves. N.C. Let's hear it. C. If you look a Jitrie back, you will find the Apoitle forbids W or flipping of An gets ; (v. i8.)as a bold invention of men,for which there was no Revelation. And then he fpeaks againft fuch fuperftitious people (whether fewf, or o- thers,the miniller could not tell us) as made ic unlawful to Marry, to eat fome kind df Meats, co touch or come near fome things • none of which God hath made finful, but they were t*he meer Commandments oi" men, (v. 21.22.) Now between a Confofkiftfkc. T ij, Nowthofe that were of this Humour he im- mediately after ( v. 23. ) charges with will- Werfhip. Which mult confift, therefore, one would think, in thefe two things. Ftrft, In giving the Worfhip due to God to fome Creature or other. Secondly, in enjoyning that as a thing necefTary, and commanded by God as a piece of his Worfhip and Service , which he hath left indifferent ^ or, in other words , when any thing is fo enjoyned to be done or not done,as if it were theWill &Com- mand of God he fhould be fo ferved 5 when it is a meer Conftitution of the WjJl of Man, then a wdl-Worfhip is erected. Now 1 3m fure you will not make us guilty ohheFirft fort ofWill- Worfhip,becaufe none are more againft it than we.As for the Second purdmrch hath declared to all the World , that none of the things you boggle at are impofed under the Notion of NecefTary,. or Religious, in themfelves, or as commanded by God . but are of an indifferent Nature, and onlyufed as decent and comely in the judgment of the prefent Governors t who can alter thefe things , .and conftitute fomethingelfein the room, if they fee it fit; which they could not pretend to, did tfaey think them necelTary. But then, as our Church is not guilty of will- Worfhip in the Apoftles Senfe ; fo, on the other fide, I know not how to excufe thofe from that very guilt , who 1 oppofe what is ordained among us as un~ I z lawfsl [r 1 6 A Friendly Debate lawful, and forbid us to ufe thofe Rites and Orders, becaufe finfuJ things. For they make that neceflary to beforborn and left undone, which God hath not made fo, but left indiffe- rent ^ and fo they in effect condemn thofe as Sinners whom God acquits from all blame. As thofe in the Apoftle's Difcourfe, faid, Tench not, Taftenot, Handle net, fo you fay, Knee I not , Praj not bj a Form> Weare notaSurplice y &c. Now fince you think (as thofe men did ) to pleafe God by not doing thofe things which he hath no- where forbidden ; I do not fee but you commit the very fault which the Apoftle reproves : That is,you make that neceflary not to be done, (if we will be true Worfliippers of God J which he hath not made neceflary not to be done , but left us at liberty to do it if wc pleafe. By which means you make a Religion cfjonr cwn y and fludy to honour God by at- taining from thefe things by which he never faid that he was difhonoured. O that all ten- der Confciences would ferioufly confider this. Tor they would foon difcern that yourMinifters by forbidding thefe things now in difpute, lay greater burthens upon theConfciencesof their Brethren , and clog them with more Duties , than God hath laid upon them. Whereas we, who think thofe things may bedonejay no o- ther burthen upon the Confcience than what Godhimfelf hath laid; which is, to obey our Governors in all things wherein he himfelf hath between a Conformifl&c 1 1 1 7 hath not bidden us to do the contrary. jV. C. You will endeavor by and by to make me believe the Moon is made of green Cheefe. All this difcourfe tends to prove that we are Super fi it iotu, which you know in your Confid- ences we abhor • and are therefore foaverfe to your ways,becaufe we j udg themSuperftitious. C. You begin to be fagacious and to fmell things a far orf.The very truth is, / think it is noeafie matter to find more Suptrftitiom peo- ple in the World than your felves. And your Clamours againd Snperftttien prove nothing , but that a man may be guilty of fome faults , and nor know ir. N. C. Phy for fhame 1 C You muft not think to put me off with words and wry Faces. / will prove you grotty Superfluous^ or elfe be converted to you. N. C. You will not make good your word. C.Yes,but / wiII,Tell me,whatis Suferftitiun? NC. /am not well skill'd in Definitions. C.No,if you were,you would have fmelt the foulBeaft among you before this time.Butyour buflnefsis, only to get fome ugly Words by the end, and then to throw them at every bo- dy whom you do not fanfie , though they h ive Lefstodo wich them than your felves. We have been taught that Superflition is a great Dread leftGod fhould not be pleafed,unlels we do fome things which we need not do, and left be fhould be difpleafei when we do fome things fi 1 8 r A YriendJy Debate in which there is no harm. Which Dread fprin-gs ( as you very well faw ) out of an o- pinion that fuch things are good or evil, ( and £o muft. be done or mutt not be done,clfe God will take it ill ) which in truth are meerly in- different. Or, in fhorter, and perhaps plainer, terms, It is aneedlefs Fear in Matters of Reli- gion, which makes a man either not dare to do thofe things which he hath a liberty to do, or think he muft upon pain of Damnation do thofe things which he may as well let alone. N.C. What then? C. What then, do you fay ? I would have you behold your face .in this Glafs,and fee how wretchedly and fuperftitioufly you look. For you think you mufl: not, for fear of God's Dif- pleafure, ufe a Form,nor fign a Child with the Crofs in Baptifnr, nor Bow in the Houfe of God, nor go up to the Rails, nay, nor Kneel, nor hear Church Mufick , nor uncover your Heads when you enter into a Church, nor call the Lord's-day Sunday, nor keep an Holy- day. Nay, it was a long time before you thought it lawful to let your Hair grow below your Ears. All which things we may do.and not difpfeafe God at all. On the other fide. You imagine you are bound to propagate & fpread all your Jittle Opinions,though with the Ruin of King- doms: I hat you are tied to maintain your li- berty in indifferent matters, againft all the Au- thority of a King , and to the difturbir.g a Church : between a Conformifl y Sccl 1 i $ Church ; That you have a Sermon or two on a Fafting-day, or elfe you fear it is not kept ; and two Sermons on the Lord's-day,or elfe you doubt it is not San&ifcd. Nay, fome of you ( I remember ) fanfied heretofore, that it was no Sermon, if it were not in the Pulpit. And to fuch an height is your Superftition grown , that you fcarce think a Prayer is acceptable to God, unlefs it be long. And you are afraid he is not ferved aright, unlefs we have a Jong Prayer before Sermon, after we have been pray- ing a great while for all manner of things.And fuch a Neceflity you feem to lay upon extern* porary Prayer, that many well-difpofed peo- ple, who have not that Gift, dare npt pray at all, ( at leaft in their Families ) for fear they fhould not pray aright. And all thefe are things of fuch a nature, as that they may not be done , or done otherwife than you think they mul}, and God be never the lefs pleafed with us. N. C. Now you have discovered the Naugh- tinefs of your Heart, in (peeking againft Ser- mons in the Afternoon. C. If I fliould do fo J fliould fpeakagainit. my fclf, and ran into your fault, I think they may be ufed, or they may be let alone, according as the Edification of the People (hall require. But to make them fo neceflary as you do, ari- fes from a Superstitious Fanfie, that God is not well ferved without them. Whereas m I 4 truth : 1 2 o A Friendly Deme truth the Catechifm expounded, or the Scrip- tures opened, would be as well , or rather better. N. C. I doubt there is fomething that is naught lies at the bottom of fuch Difcourfes. C. You fhould rather fufped there are naugh- ty things at the bottom . of fuch Opinions as yours. For the Fruit of your Superftition is this at the beft ; Rafh and un juft Cenfuring of your Brethren , that do not the things which you make fo neceflary to be done , or do the things which you make fo neceflary to be for- born • and at laft. downright Schifm and Sepa- ration from them, becaufe you fanfie they are out of the. way of God. N. C. I mull confefs I have fome fear you are fo i who can be content without a Sermon in the Afternoon, and fatisfied with Common- Prayer-, which I could never feel my felf fo affededwith, as I am with extemporary De- votions. C. That's becaufe you had fo low an efteem of it, and therefore brought no defires, nor ufedany Endeavours to be moved by it : but rather you fet your felf in a dull and fleepy Pofture, as one that had no lift to hear it. I could tell you fomething elfe befides this, but ip would only vex you. N. C. lam not afraid of any thing you can fay. Pray fpeak your mind. C, I believe tf yog would examine your felf, between a Confortnifl,8cc . 121 you would find there is fome part of your Mi- ni Iters extemporary Prayers, which do no more affecl you than our Service. N.C. What part (hould that be? C. The Entrance or Beginning of his Pray- er : When he fpeaks verv flow, as if he was ftudying what to fay,and draws out his words with a low Voice, and with a fmaJJ degree of Vehemence, and litde or no Motion ; then I fay, 1 believe your Affections are low too,and you feel not your heart much moved.Butwhen his Voice begins to rife, ( cfpccially, if he lift ic up on a fudden, and it break out like a Clap of Thunder ) and when he fpeaks more fluently, & his Zeal begins to kindle , and he lays about him, and is full of life ( as you call it ) that is , ufes a great deal of A&ion ^then is che time,if the truth were known- that your Affedions ftir, and begin to rife from the bottom of your Heart , where they lay heavy and dull before. Then you figh and groan, and perhaps weep, and are put into raanv Pafiions,which lay quiet enough till his Breath ble.v lowder. Is not this the plain truth? N C. What then ? C. Then you are no more affected with the Prayers of your Minifter, ( as they are pious Petitions or Acknowledgments of God ) than you are with our Common-Prayer-, But only with the Voice, the Vehemency, the Action, fhepreccy Fancies and fine Phrafes, which per- haps I 2 2 A friendly Debate haps he lights upon when he is a little heated • which were it my cafe, 'twould make me fuf- ped: the Love of God was not in me. For why fnould he think he loves God, who is not mo- ved with Affection to him when he hears his Gre^tnefs, Goodnefs, Wifdom,and Benefits to us, foberly and gravely exprefTed, but is In a great Commotion when be meets with a new Word that pleafes him, or a kind Phrafe, or melting Tone, a fvveet Voice, or fome fuch thing ? N. C. I hope it is fomething z\iz that affefts me. C. If it be, then pray tell me, why jfhould not the Common-Prayer a fifed you , whofe fenfe is good enough, only it is not varied and drefled up in new words every day ? I befeech you try your Heart, by examining the Book,& considering whether thofe very things be not requeued of God there, which you defire in your Prayers : and if they be, then demand of your felf a Reafon why they move you no more. I doubt you will find it is beeaufc they are not new, but old Expreilions. N. C. I will confider ofit at leifure. C. To help you a little take this aiong with you ; which will go near to convince you, that if it be not the Voice and lone, it is the No- velty which affects you. Suppofe one of the Prayers of your ownMini(ters,which you tiling is indided by the Spirit, was taken in ftiort- between a Confortnifl&c. 125 hand writing, and afterward ufed every day m the Service of God, as often as our Prayers are: Tell me ferioufly, do you not think it would feem very Mat at !a(l, fuller of nauceous Repeti- tions and faulty Expreflians than you conceive to be in the Common-Prayer ? N. C. You put a hard Queflion to me. C I fee you are inclined to be of my mind ^ and therefore pray coniider thefe two things. Flrft , That fince even a Prayer which you think fo heavenly would not arTed: you alway, if it were al way ufed ; it is to be feared you are moved only while Prayers are new, and indeed becaufe they are new , not becaufe they are good & pious Petitions. And Secondly, that lince it is convenient, if not neceffary, to have a Form of Prayer in the Church, and the Common-Prayer hath no other Imperfection but what thole whom you fo much admire would have, were they conftantly ufed, as it is • why fhculd you not like it as well as any, efpecially (ince it is efhblifhed by pubiick Authority ? N. C. I will confide r of it, as I fa id before. Put I wifh you hadfeen a Book ( as I perceive you have many of ours J newly come out, which fuppofesjoar Service-Book hath been *- bufed to Superftition and Idolatry ', and there- fore muft beabolifh'd. (7. He doth well to fnppofe it,and not to un- dertake the proof of it.What is the name of the Book? N C. It is this Principle, That it u the ^>iU and fleafure of God, that fuch things at have been abufti 126 X A Friendly Debate abufed and polluted in Superstitions and Ido/a trom Services fbonld be abolijhed and lai i ajide 3 ( P a g- x 5-) Which I obferve he contracts into thefe words, ( pag. 21. ) It is Gods mil that things abufed in corrupt andfalje Worfhip Jhottid be laid a fide. N. C. And what have you to fay to it ? C. I will firft tell you what he fays to it, After he had told usagreat many things(which every body knows)concerning the will ofGod that the Ifraelites ftiould abolifh the Images & Groves and Altars of thtCananites , &c. and thence concluded,thatjW£ things as have been imployed to corrupt ends and purpofes mull: be abolifhed : at laft he comes and tells us,thac this principle muft not be extended too far,nor made to ferve againft all things that have been fo abufed, and he excepts a great number . Nothing Commanded by God muft be difufed upon this account-,none of Gods Creatures arc to be refufed ^ nay,no neceffary and profitable Devices of men need be fent packing, though they have been fo profan'^&more than this,he fays that things which are but in a competent degree ufeful, may be retained, if they have been abufed toldolatry only in a flight manner; that is, a little while. Nay, things that have been moregrofly abufed, in cafe there be no danger for the future of their bemg imploy'd , to Idolatry, he is content Jfhould be fpar'J,and ufed either to Civil or Religious purpofes. Nov/ between a Corformiftjkcl 1 2 7 Now let any man,that can be Matter of cohe- rent Thoughts buc for one minute , tell me , if this be not as much as to fay his Principle is not true ; and that things are not to be re- jected merely upon this account,that they have been imployed in faife Worfriip , but there muft be fome other reafon for it. For if there be fo many things, as he confeffes, that may be abufed ; and yet may, nay fome ought to be itill ufed in God's Service, then the Abufe is not a fufficient reafon for our throwing themr away utterly, but there muft be fome other which makes it neceffary. And if he had told us that reafon plainly, and fpent his Difcourfe in making it good- he had done like a man. But he faw (it's like) that this would not have done his buGnefs,for it would not for inftance, have reached to the taking away of Common- Prayer •, becaufe it may be Hill ufeful, as much ( furej as his Pen^which, he tells us.m^fi not be fihrown away, if any wan befofoolijbas to bow down to it and VQorjJjip it. (pag. 1 30.) And as necefa' ry I fhould think,as the Water-Pots in Carta of Gaiilee^ which he confeffes our Saviour ufed , though abufed toSftperftition and unlawfuiPuri- fications, And it is in no danger to be im- ploy'd to Idolatry, for the Papifts hate it ; and I hope he hath no thoughts that we ever intend to fay thefe Prayers to Saints or Angels, any more than to bow to a Saint or Angel ft aniing for a Sign at an Im-kee^y's door: And yet that [1 2 8 r A Friendly Debate that is nofuch Profanation of the Sign in his judgment, but that the owner may Jet it (land, unlefs it become cullomary to bow to it. N.C. Well. Is not the Gentleman to be commended for his Honefly, in not concealing this from his Readers, that his Proposition or Doctrine is not to be underftood univer- faiJy ? C. He durll do no otherwifc. For if bj things abufed Which rnttjl be abclifbed^hz had un- derstood all things abufed, then he faw the Lerd's-daj would be antiquated,the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper laid afide, nay, he him- feif put out of his Miniftry : the Chriftian Prieils or Minifters having fo much ferved IdoJs as he fnppofes. But fince his Doctrine was to be limited, why was he not fo honefl as to do it at firft ; that fo no Reader might be abufed, who perhaps would not go fo far as to come to his Limitations ? Why did he not fay, fome things abufed mull be Jay'd afide, and in fome Cafe 5 for that's the fenfe of his Proposition ? To make it plainer what I mean, I fay, ( mark it I pray you) by things abufed, he underftands only fome things \ and when he fays they mt/ft. be Lyd afide, he means in fome Cafes they mull be lay'd afide ; as ap- pears by hisExceptions afterwards. And there- fore he had done fincerely , if he had drawn up his Proposition thus, ( and it had been a- greeabieto his Text, 2 Kings i§. 4. ) Some things between a Conformift f 8cc. Y29 things alwfed, Sec. are in fomei 1 ^es to be lay'd afide. But, I conceive he fuw mac this would not fo well ferve his purpofe ; which was , to put people out of conceit with the Com- mon-Prayer and Ceremonies as much as ever he could. For the Do&rine would not have been fo popular , nor fo eafie to declaim up- on. It would have put him to a great deal of pains, to fpicifie the thinis that muft of ne- cefficy be deftroy'd, and then he muft have undertaken an harder Task, to name the Cafes wherein thofe things, that might othervvife be fpared, muft needs be abolifh'd^ and a- nother harder than that , to fhew that , be- caufe fome particular things were abolifhM at one time, none of the like kind muft ever be ufed. And then he muft have proceeded to fhew, which ought to have made the prin- cipal part of his Book , but now in a manner is t3ken for granted) that the Liturgy is in the number of thofe things that have been foabufed- and that the cafe isfo, that it can- not be tolerated, but muft be deftroyed by thfl Ki*f, as the Brazen Serpent was by Hezekiak* Which would have proved the moft difficult labour of all. For fuppofing it had been c- ver imploy'd to Idolatry , ( which can never. be proved ;) yet fince Hezekiab, in all like- lyhood, would never have deftroy'd fuch 3 Monument of God's mercies as the Brazen Ser- pent , had the people of a long time ceafed K to ■I 3 o A Friendly Debate to burn Incenfe to it, and been in no clanger to do fo again ; why fhould we throw away the Liturgy, now that it is not abufed to any Idolatrous purpofe , nor in any likelihood fo to be ? Befides, it cannot be fo aboliftui as the Brazen Serpent was, but the very fame Form may be brought forth again upon occafion. And therefore any likelihood that may be fan- lied of its being ufed to Idolatry in future times can be of no consideration here, becaufe it may be fo ufed whether we lay it afide or no. All thefe things confidered , he very wifely waved this Method; and only tells the peo- ple in general terms that things abufed in falfe Worfhip muft be laid afide : Under which he knew the Liturgy and Ceremonies wou.'d be con- cluded by them , without any more adoe. For though his Inftances or Proofs be all particular , and therefore he faw well enough his Propofiri- ©n ought to have been fo ; yet the people he knew might not fee it, but prefently conclude the Liturgy muft be packt away among the things abufed. And though he makes limitati- ons and reftridions of this Propofition, to (hew it is not Univerfal - y yet they come a great way behind. And before there is any certainty what the abttffd things are, which muft be laid afide ; the Magiftrate is told his Duty, and earneftly prefied to remove them : the people alfo are in- structed in theirs ^ who, he faith, are all con- cerned between a Corifomifl&c. 13 i cerned in one refpect or other, as you may fee Sett. 7. Then he fpends another Section to (hew/ the manner how it mult be done- and another about the time 7 declaring, they muft forthwith la) their hand to the wor^ even beford they knew what they had to do, (for the time was not come to tell them that. ) And then an- other follows, to give the Reafons of the Point : wherein thefe things are Represented as fo odious and Joathfom to God , that you nay well think the Liturgy might be con- demned to the Flames by the Reader , before he came to confider whether it was not an ex- cepted thing ; and he might be in fuch a flame to fee execution done forthwith . as not to have patience to deliberate whether he ought to" lave it or no. Nor is the matter much men-* ded when he comes to his Cautions : for, left it fhould happen to be acquitted or reprieved, he doth not fo much as bring it to a trial, much k^s bid his Readers take heed of parting rafh judgment, without examining whether it were guilty of the aforefaid Crime or no-, but fair- ly leaves it to take its chance, and to ftand or fill in their opinion as it fhould happen. And therefore he did wifely intimate in the begin- ning of that Sedion , that it muft be kh to the Reader to compare his Cautions with what he had faid ; for there is not one in twenty that will take that pains, and fewer that are a- ble to do it to any purpofe, without fomc 'K 2 afiift- •I 32 f A Friendly Debate afiiftance. In {hon, as far as I can Judge 3 ( for God only knows the Heart ) he (aw it was his beft way to let his Re Uriel: ions alone till the laft, and to propound his Do- drine in round and general words , becaufe he knew the people would more readily fvval- lovv it: whereas if it had been broken into pats, fome of which were to be taken, and fome left ; they might prove more nice , when they faw there was a fcrupulous difference to be made. But that we may fee what force there is in his Principle 10 do fuch feats as he im3gins, I pray, if you can, refoive me one thing. N. C. What's that? C Whether a Roman Prieft being truly con- verted ( as far as we can judge ) may not be made an Englifi LMinifter. 7^. C. Yes, furely : what fliould hinder ? C. I will fhew you clearly that it muft not be according to his way of Reafoning. He tells you ( pag. 21.) that things abufed in Falfe *Vv orfhip muft be laid afide • Then ( pag. 44. ) be tells you , that under the word Things he comprehends Perfons, and LiiMy , ( pag. 49. ) he affirms the Papifts to be no better than Ido- laters.Now (hew me how any Popifh Prieft,who in his language is a thing abufed(fo notoriously) in Superltitious and Idolatrous Worfhip , may ever be made ufe of more in the Service of God ; efpecially when you consider what a poiTibility there is, that he may be Serviceable in between a Conformiftfkc] 13 j in the falfe Worfhip again. For my part, I think, according to his Principles, that he ought not only to be laid afide , bat to be ktfiu N.C. God forbid. C. Read his third Setlion at your leifure, and tell me what you think of it. Fork's like you have fuch Books among you, though we fee them but by chance. - N. C. I have ft not, nor know when I fhall fee it. Pray tell me briefly what he fays. C. He tells you that God is fo Impatient of grofs and open IdoLitrJ^ and of fuch as are guil- ty f' r -> tb*t he every where breaths forth Dea;h againft t hem. N. C. You have told me enough. C. Nay, fince you have put me upon k^ you fhall have a little more. God peremptorily decrees he fayes that vrhofoever pleads for Idols f offers to them , or performs them any fervice , jhallnot only be locked on at unfit to approach him, but alfo lofe his life. 2^ C. Since you would not leave off when I would have had you, I will be even with you , and require his reafon for this Affertion. Doth tie bring any place of Scripture that contains fo llniverfal a Decree, that tvbofoever he is that pleads, dec. C. No : You know his way is to make his Pro- portion Vnive rfal,dnd his Proofs Particular. He. brings you above half a fcore Texts out of the K 3 Scripture^ [j 34 r A Friendly Debate Scripture, which fpeaks of the execution that was to be done upon the (even Nations of Ca- naan , or the Apofiate Ifraelitet and the Vriefts of Baal; and leaves you to be fo kind as to fuppole , ( though he go not about to prove it) that God hath decreed the like ag3inft all Idolaters whatfoever. And then at laft he thus concludes •, How f&r this concerns the fapifls , the knowledg of their w^ys andpratltce will inform us. That they are Idolaters the beft Proteftant -writers affirm. And it will not relieve them to alledg that they Worfeip the true God; for fo did the Israelites when they wor/hipped the Calf, yet tto body queftions but they were guilty of Idola- try. I wonder he did noc adde, from what went before, aniyou very well know Mofes order el them to be flain. N. C. I mult confefs his Difcourfe ought to have ended fo, ifitbeas you relate. And as I do not like it upon that account, fo there's another thing that makes me think he is out of t the way. There are many that fcruple to call the place of y«ur AfTemblies a Church, and yet they would not have them puIPd down, ( as they rnuft be bythefe Principles) they being convenient Places to meet in for the Service of God. And for my part I would have the Ca- thedrals /land , if k were but to be an orna- ment to the Nation j though I plainly fee his Engine, as you call it, will throw them all down, if we fuflerit to go to work. between a Conformiftficc] 1 3 ^ C- He faw this as well as you ; and therein could not but difcern his Principle was bad , becaufe it prov'd more than he would have it. And therefore perceiving how it undermin'd the Foundation of all our Churches, (except fome few lately built ) and being loth fuch goodly Fabricks fhould tumble down, nay all the ftate- licH Buildings in Europe be laid in the dufi{ lie, in great companion quits his Principle t that he might fupport them. For he tells you, that thofe only are to be thrown down which in refped of their Situation and Figure or the like, are unfit for profitable Vfes •, and fuch as re- main dec^ With their Hols Attire^ and ft and among fuch people as are fcandalizSd with the ufe of them, and are in fuch places where there is danger of their return to Idolatry ; which a man half blind Cczs is as much as to fay, They are not to be laidafide becaufe they have been imployM to Idolatry , but for other confidera- tions. He himfelf confeffes as much, when he faith, if they be in regard of their Situation ani Figure, ani the like j fit for profitables Vfes y &c # they may lawfully he retained. That is, as if he had fiid, there is no neceftity of laying them afide, becaufe they were abufed in falfe Wor* fhip . and therefore my Principle is not true which I laid down at the beginning, that things i abufed in falfe vporfhip muf} be abolified. Are you not amazed that he (hould be thus forcei to forfake his Principle , and yet not mend it ? K 4 Nay [ 1 3 6 A Triendly Debate Nay, as if he would demonflrate that men are carried by Humour and Prejudice when they talk of thefe matters, after all this, he would iiaveC^k^W.rpull'ddown, as the High places were. N.C. Why? What difference is there? C. For any thing I can fee there is none ," but they have all the qualifications he mentioned to deferve his Favour. Neither the Situa- tion nor their Figure hinders but they may be fit for profitable Ufes. I never faw any Jdols attire with which they are adorn'd ; nor do they (land among thofe who are fcandaliz'd at them, unlefs it be fuch as himfelf, ( and fome other humourfome people ) who firft take of- fence at them without any reafon, and then make thjs ferve for a Reafon why they (hould be puli'd dowri. 2^.C No doubt he hath fome Reafon. C If he have, he concealed ft, or it mud ly in their Figure and Situation rendring them unfit for profitable Ufes, or in their remaining deck'd with their Idols Attire ; from none of which can there be any thing aliedged more againft the Cothedrals than againfl other Churches ; nor fo much neither , in fome re- gards. For they may be made to ferve many more profitable ufes than a fmall Church. But if his people's being offended at them, nobody .knows why, nor wherefore, mufr. fland alone for a Reafon 3 then mark unto what a fine pafs he between a Confornriji&cl 137 he hath brought his bufinefs. He hath quitted his ground irr this particular to no purpoie, and done the Churches, he thought to lave, no fervice at all ; for he holds fall one Fancy which will not let them Hand. TijC. What is it? C. 1 have told it you already; that if thy {land amongjuch as are fcandaltz.'d at them, they ou^ht not to be retaihd. Alas poor Churches 1 To what purpoie was all this care to keep them from Ruine ? The JQuakers and many other- people are extremely otknded at them, and could be content with a Gothifb Barbarifm to demo- lifh them. Or if they were not, we know not when the Conceit will take men to be fcan- daliz'd^ and then they mull be converted into Stables or Cow-houfes, or what they pleafe; or rather pull'd down , for fear they be con- verted to Churches again. And truly when I confider all things , I wonder they were not longagoeddlroya 1 upon this very fcore. iV. C. When were they in danger: I pray you ? C. Upon a Petition of the Aflfcmbly of Di- vines, fulyig. there was an Ordinance (Ire- member) of 28. % Ah§. 1643. requiring that all ^Monuments of Super ft it ion and Idolatry fhouli be dcmolifb'd ; which was repeated again , to make fure work, CbUy 9. 1644. Now why Churches were not mentioned is hard to te-ll , for they were dedicated to the honour of fomc Saint 138 'A Friendly Debate Sainc or other at the firft : and to thofe Saints there was then fuih an Abhorrence, that as they would not let their Images or Pidures ftand , ib, itfhould feem, their Coats of Arms , if they had any , were to be defaced, for thus a Provifo at the latter end runs : This Ordi- nance /ha/I not extend to the taking down the Image , or Bi&ure, or Coat of Arms , fet up fur any dead man, who was not commonly reputed a Saint. It feems they concluded, that none of the reputed Saints in their days would be thought fo hereafter, (for then no Picture or Image at all fhould have been allow'd, for fear of being worfhipped) and their words fuppofe, that any of thofe (either Image, Picture, or Coat of Arms ) belonging to any ancient repu- ted Saints muft not ftand. The Churches there- fore that bore their Names , and were better Cfrlonuments and remembrances of them than any Coat of Arms, had good fortune they were not beaten down. N.C. They had fo: But they were ft ftill for life, and fo were not Images and Pictures. C Yet thofe in the Glafs-windows were fit enough, and ferved dill for the fame ufe they had done before, where they had the wit to turn their Heels upward. 2v^.C. It is like, fome ludnomind to take any notice of them^Dut were rather well pleafed to pafs them by. C. Perhaps fo; For men can pafr things by, or between a Conformifl&c^ iig or take but little notice of them, when they lift ; though they concern them very much : Of which we have an lnfhmce in this very Writer. Vor being to treat of things abufed, firlt he tells us of F erfcns, then of Name s, next ofJ*W.f,and after that of Places which have been imploy'd to Superftitious or Idolatrous llfes. And of each of thefe he difcourfes in a fc&i- on by it feif. Would not any man have ex- peeled now to «find one Section on purpofe a- bouc Bookj that have been fo abufed ? Efpe- cially fince his grcatcft Spice is at the Litur- gy, and it is the prime thing he undertook to overthrow ? And yet he thruits this thing into a Corner , as fome did their Glafs- windows heretofore, not being defirous to meddle much with it, nor having much to fay in this mat- ter. I mean, he crouds it in among many other things, at the end of that Section about abufed places •, and there you find it under the Name offuch V tennis as have been devoted to Superftitious Ufcs, which are Altars^ Images ., B';okj, Rtl':cjties,Vtffcls ani other Inflruments that have been impLjed in that manner. Now mark , I pray you, in what general terms he fpeaks of all thefe together, ( for you muftnot expect to have them diftindly handled : ) Though in thewftlves((dhh he) they are never fo innocent ^rich andfplindtd; jet when once thy have been Ser- viceable to jpich VVickednffs, He would have them cafi away^ as things unfit to be retained by thofe that 140 A Friendly Debate that profefs his Name. Would you look now to find any limitation of this , and to hear thac things fit for God's Service may be retained ? And yet in this very Section he allows this fa- vour to Places-, and there is the fame rea- fon Bockj fhould enjoy it. And would you not expect a clear proof of this, thac even Innocent things mull be deftroy'd, (and par- ticularly Books impJoy'd in Idol-worfhip ?) e- fpecially fince he pretends to juftffie hisAffertion by Scripture, and faith, This appears bj divers expre/s Precepts which he gave the Ifraelites to this purpofe ? iV. C, Yes, indeed, fhould 1 5 and I ftippofe Reproduces them. C. Read but pag, 75. and try if you find a Syllable fpoken to the Ifraelites about Bockf, or about innocent things cither. I can fee no- thing but what concerns* their Altars, Images and Pictures. Ke tells you, indeed, that whole Cities in Canaan and every thing in them were to be deftroy'd. But he would not take notice, at the fame time, that this was only comman- ded concerning that Countrey; and that there is no proof can be made, that there were any innocent Books there imploy'd in their Idol- worfhip. No, we conclude rather all were Superfluous and Idolatrous in themfelves, and fuch as could never be imployed in Divine Ser- vice. It is true, at laft he comes to remem- ber us, tjiat in the New Teftament we read , the between a Conformift&c 1 141 the Chriftian Converts burnt their Curious Bockj, Atl. 19. 19. But what is this to the Precepts he promifed tofhevvus given to the Jfraelites ? And what is this to the bufmefs of Prayer-Books ? Nay, why did he not fhew us the Innocence of thefe Books, and prove that Conjuring was a very harmlefs Art ? N. C I wifh you would have done with this Book of his , which I think in one fenfe is innocent enough , and will do no harm a* mong confidering people. C. I am content to make an end; for I fear I have been too tedious. But it was out of a defire to examine fenoufiy whether there were fuch force as he conceives in this Engine , to batter down all the Fortifications that they who pre fide in tht Church, or their Ajjiftants, can erell , in defence of the abnfed Scandalous things ( as he calls them ) which^oithfo much *,tal we contend for, viz. the Liturgy and Ce- remonies. They are his words in his Epiftie. N. C. He tells you a little after, that he will not o!Ter to impofe his belief on others. Lee every body read,and then do as he finds caufe. C I commend his Ingenuity and Modefly , only I wifh his Zeal was a little: lefs in this matter , and that be would not think himfelf and others ingag'J to endeavour to theutmoir. of their power the Extirpation and abolifhing of the Liturgy. For what is this but to impofe his belief upon us, as much as he is able, in his 142 A Friendly Debate his place ? Doth lie only offer his Reafons , who folicites and perfwades and ihtreats men to promote his Defign ? Doth he leave others to judge, who ingages their Affections, and itirs up their Paflions, as if the Caufe were alrea- dy decided according to his mind ? This it is to be zealous to advance a private Opinion, He meant, it's like, as he fpoke, when he told us in his Epiftle, that heexptfled and dt fired no more but that We would candidly ]\>ekh the cafe : but his zeal made him forget himfelf , and earneftly befeech us to be up and doing, as if judgment were already given on his fide. This I make no doubt, was the thing that put him fo much befide the Cufhion, as to make him magnifie the Purity of thofe Doctrines i which in fober thoughts he faw were of perni- cious confequencc. And I would willingly think it was nothing elfe that made him only pafs his word, that the Liturgy is one of the things that God would have laid afide, with- out any Proof of it : For whatfoever he or the AiTembly have been pleafed to fay, no body ever made an Idol of it y or were guilty of ado- ring it. Thefe are but a kind of Conjuring Phrafes and Magical words , which make a great Sound, and aftonifti the filly people, but fignihe nothing, lave only this, that men care not what they fay to fcrve their caufe. And therefore I hope you will not be afrighted by fuch Bug bears, but come and do your Duty to Cod be ween a Conformift&c! 1 4 3 God and man both together, in joyning with us in Common- Prayer. N.C. I will confider it as I have told you more than once : But I have had the lefs mind to come to it , becmfe after it is done, your Minifter prays fo coldly him- felf. C. That is , he doth not put himfelf into a Sweat. But are not his words lively, and apt to warm the Hearts of thole who attend to them ? 2^.C. Methinks nor. And befide, his Ser- mons that follow are very dull , and nothing comparable to ours. C. Now you are got again to the Hole from whence I did drive you a good while agoe : you run in a Circle of difcourfe , and are re- turned thnher where we firft began. But fince I have followed your motions thus far, I will ask you this queltion ; Why do you not rather think your felt dull than him ? N. C. Becaufe I am not dull in other places, and yet was fo at your Church. C. You maybe in the fault for all that. For perhaps you was difarTected to his Perfon, or to his method of handling things ; or you had a greater Kindnefs for fome other ^ and then , though S.Taul himfelf ihould preach, you would be apt to prefer that man before him. N. C. No ; methinks his matter is dull and Mat. 1 44 A Friendly Debate C. Why , what did you hear him treat of? N. C. I heard him preach about the necef- fity of Obedience to the Laws of Chrifl. And there he told us how we mull do as we would be done unto , and love our Neighbours as our felves , and forgive Injuries, and make Refti- tution of ill-gotten Goods ^ with a great many other fuch like things , which every body .knows already. And yet hefpentl know not well how many Sermons about thefe common matters. C. Does every body know thefe things, fay you? The greater (hame then that they live not according to them. I am afraid they are not fenfible of the neceility of thefe things , about which a man of any underitanding and ferioufnefs cannot well fpeak, and be flat and dull. I much fufpeft that you even fet your felftofleep, or fuffered your thoughts to run to other matter, or fell a reading in your Bi- ble, (aslhavefeenfomedo) when he begun to treat of fuch Arguments as thefe, thinking that you was little concerned in them. N. C. I mull confefs part of what you fay. For when I come to Church, I look not for Mo- ral, but Chrillian Doctrines. C. How now? Do you oppofe Morality and Chriltianity ? Is not the former a part of the latter? I mean-, doth not the Chriftian Reli- gion teach us the higheft Morality ? N.C. between a Conforntift&c. 145 N. C. No I think it doth not meddle with ir. C. Then you talk of this as you do of many other things, without under/tending. Pray what is Moral Do&rine ? N. C, Do you tell me, if you pleafe. C. I always took it to be that Doftrine which teaches us howto regulate our mariners, that is, to order and govern our actions, or our whol-e Behaviour in this World.Now I ap- peal to any man that reads the GofpeI,whether this be not the very defign of it, to teach us to live fiber lj, right eov fly, andgodlilj, N. C. Is this morality ? C. Yes, that it is. And therefore I faid that Chriftian Religion advances Morality to the greateft height ; becaufe it gives us the bell: and moll: excellent Motives to live foberly , righteoufly, charitably, and pioufly in this World. N. C. For all this, I think it were better if J e fits Chrift were more preached. C. Still I fee you deceive your felf, and trouble the world with phrafes. Doth not he preach Jefpts Chrifl that preaches his Do&rine? If you doubt of it, you (hall have Scripture enough to prove it. N.C. But T mean that the Love offefiu Chrift to poor Souls fhould be more preach- ed. . C. I cannot fay it fhould be more preached - 4 L but j 4 6 A Friendly Debate but it ought to be preached, and fo it is ; and perhaps better^than you would have it.For his Love is declared, to the end we may love him and keep his Commandments. This is that which the Grace of God teaches us, to live fo- berly, &c. The Loving-Kindnefs of God to- wards mankind, in Chrift J ejus was expreffed for this very purpofe. And therefore he that preaches both thefe together is the bed and wifefl: Guide with whom to entrull our Souls • and that is the defign of our Minifter. He doth not tickle us merely with a foft Story of the great love o^Jefm Chrift towards Sinners* But labours to beget in us an ardent love to him. And left we fhould run away with a pleafant Fan(ie,he makes us underitand where- in this love confifls, Viz. in Obedience to him to the very death • in Meeknefs,Humility, Pa- tience, taking up the Crofs, and fuch like Gra- ces ; which feem to be rough things, and have no amiablenefs in the eye of the World, but are as dear to all thofe who love our Saviour, as their very Lives.And this makes me think him the moil fincere and honeft, that he doth not feek fo much topleafe us in his Preaching, as to profit us. N. C. Profit, Do you call it ? I could never profit by him at all. C. Whofe fault was that ? Yours, or his > You are loth to fufpeftyour felf,and inclin'd to lay all the load on others. I believe it will be found bttwttn a Conformifl&c. 147 found at the great Day that he hath done his duty better than you. N. C. That's a thing,fvhich neither you nor I know. But this I am fure of, that I can profit more by others, than by him. C. Let me try the truth of that,if you pleafe; for I very much doubt of it* N. C. I am fure of it. C. If you profit fomuch, then your Mini- fters make you wiftr and better than you were before : For there are but thefc two things that argue Proficiency. Now do as much as an- fwer me the firft. Wherein are you vi- ler than you were ? What one thing do you know, that you did not under/tand before , or might have underftood eafily, when you pleafed? What things do you now under- hand the Reafon of better than formerly ? Or what account can you give me of the grounds of ChrifHan Faith, and of the Hope that is in you ? What Rules of Prudence have you met withal ? What explication of Scri- pture ? I was going to ask what Point in Divi- nity you are able to ftate with Judgement and due Caution ? But that's too hard a Quefti- on. 2%. C, I am not able prefently to call things to mind. But this I am lure of, that / get more good by them, than any men that ever / heard. C. That is, you are grown tetter : where- in 2 in Tq% A friendly Debate in I befeechyou? Are your carnal Affections more mortified ? Are your Pa (lions more fub- dued to Reafon ? Are you more humble and lowly in heart ? More meek , more merciful , more companionate to all men, more affable, more courteous ? I am afraid in this lalt Point you are grown better , as fowr Ale doth in Summer ; that is more fharp and eager. 2^.C. Me-thinks I have much more Com- fort. C. That's flrange, when you are neither wifer nor better, as far as I can difcern. One would think you fhould fufpeft them to be foolifh and deceitful Comforts, becaufe they have fo little ground , except it be in your Imagination. N. C. Why ? would you have me fetch my Comforts from my felf , and not from Jefm Chrift> C. Now I fee indeed how wife you are grown by this profound Queftion. N*C. Muftnotallour Comfort be fetchM from Jefus Chrift ? C. Yes: But every body cannot fetch it. They arc the weary and heavy laden , and fuch as take upon them his Toke and Burthen, r. e. fubmit to his Commands, whom he in- vites and pro m i fes eafe and Refrefhment un* to.- By which you may fee, if you will that we muft feel fomething that is good in our felves, ( and more than good Defires,and ArTeSi- btwtm a Conformifl&c. 1 4 9 Affections and Purpofes ) before we can feel that folid Comfort and Satisfaction you fpeaic of. N. C. Then it feems we muft fetch our comfort from our own felves. C. No. But it feems you are grown fo wife, and taken up in fuch high Notions, that you cannot underftand common Senfe.Is there any other Comfort you dare give to an ungodly man befides this, that he may by the Grace of our Lord be made better, and fo received into his Favour ? N. C. f think not. C. Then before you can take that full Comfort in him which you talk of, you muft feci that you are truly changed and converted to a love of Godlinefs, and a Life according tothofegood Aflfe&ions. All the good, in- deed, that is in us, and all that we hope for, we derive from our Saviour Cbrift: but till we become good, and be made like him, we do but put our felves into a Fool's Paradife, if we fanfiethat we are in his Favour,and that he will carry us to Heaven. And on the contrarv, when we are once made partakers of his bleffed Nature and Spirit, how can we choofe but be full of Joy, both in that Refemblance we find in our felves to him, and much more in the hopes he hath given us , that he will perfect thofe Beginings in eternal Life? But it is as plain, that though we cannot but rejoyce very L 3 much ! 150 A Friendly Debate much in that which we feel in our felves,( the Likenefs of Chrift and good Hopes ) yet the Original of this Joy & Satisfaction is not from our fclves, but him, who gave us that Partici- pation of his nature and thofe good Hopes. N. C. I do not well underftand you. But this I know, that you all talk as if we were to bring (om* thing to Qhn^^andnot to takf all from him. C. Rather to talk thus is to be very ridicu- lous. Forhe invites us to come to him, i.e. to believe on him, and become his Difci- plesand Followers. And this we mull do, or elfe be difown'd by him ., though when we doit, we only obey his heavenly Call, and bring him nothing , but only all our Defires and ArTe&ions to be governed by him. Is there any body fo abfurd , as to imagine we mufl not give up our khes to be led and guided by him in his ways? and when we are in them, does any body think we came there without hisMotion and gracious attracti- on? Would you have us without any more a-do conclude, that all the promifed bleilings are our portion ? or muft we not firft be pcr- fwaded our Saviour tells us the truth of God, and then purpofe to learn of him and obey him, and next kt our felves with all our might to fubdue every I hought and Paflion to his o- bedience , and laft of all, order all our actions (by the afliftarxe of the fame Grace where- by between a Conformift^ccl i$\ by we do the reft ) according to the Rule of his Laws > And muft we no: have a fenfe thac we arefincere in all this, before we can reafo- nably exped: thac he fhould give us all the good things he promifes ? Infhort, muft he not give us his Grace to will and to do, and muft we not receive it, and effectually do there- by all that I have fad, before we conclude our Sins are pardoned, and take the confidence to hope our Saviour will give us eternal Life ? N. C. I perceive you pretend to have pro- fited very much by your Minifter. C. Yes indeed- I think, /am grown wifer a great deal and much better. N.C. / wifh you would tell me briefly wherein. C./know God and hisAttributes better,and perceive how all Religion depends on that Knowledge : /think alio, /underftand the na- ture of Religion in General, and of Chriftia- nity in particular more exa&ly, than / did. /know wherein Religion confifts ; with the grounds of Faith, and the Reafon why I am aChriftianrather,thanofany other Profefti- on. And withal, I hope I underftand many places of Holy Scripture, and am able to give a cleajer & foberer account of them than here- tofore ; whenas I ingenioufly confefs, I was wont to expound the Word of God by fanfie , and not by ferious & attentive Confederations. And as for growth in goodnefs, I may truly L 4 fay, 7 5 2 r A Friendly Debate fay, I have learnt many things to be my Duty, which I fcarce ever heard you fpcak of. As fot example, to bridle my Tongue ; efpecially when I fpeak of my Superiors- to reverence my Governors •, to live in obedience to Laws , though they happen to hinder my private pro- fit ; & for that end to look upon humane Laws, as bindingtheConfcience^to anfwer my Betters with great Modefty and Humility : in particu- lar,not to contend boldly and malepertly with the Prieft,as if I were upon equal ground with him % not to be a Bufy-body,& a Gadder from houfe to houfe • not to pry into every bodie's Secrets : not to rejoyce in iniquity, or take a pleafure in hearing of the Sins of the contrary party; to be very fearful of making a Schifm in the Church ; and to name no more, to take heed of itching Ears, and not to run from my own Church, out of a fanfie that I can profit more in other places. N. C, Well, talk as long as you pleafe, all the Godly will follow tho f e men whom you would perfwade me to forfake. C. I am heartily forry to fee yourArrogance and Uncharrabienefs. But it gives me to un- derhand how much you protit by your Mini- fters ; not in the Graces of Chrift, but in the peculiar unheard of Vertues of your Seel:, Pride, Boafting, Good opinion of your felves, Contempt of others, and rafh judging even of mens Spiritual eltates. N.C, bttmtn a Conformift&c". 7 53 2^. C. I think yon judge rafhly of me. C. No fuch matter. Your Cenforioufnefs & Raflinefs is apparent ; and I do not commit the fame faulc, when I take notice of it. And I muft let you know, that you commit another like this, when you make an Out-cry through the Nation and tell the people that all Ungod- liness hath over-flown if, only fines Bifbops and Common- Prayer came home again. Which is an arrant Lie •, as will be made good, if need be, againft the bed of you. For it began to break in upon us when the Bifhops & all good Order was thrown down, and the Kingdom put into Arms. Then men ran into excefs of Riot, when their was no Restraint upon them. I will not fay into fo much Drunkennefs, but into Whoring ( I may add Atheifm and Irreli- gion) and fuch like Wickednefs , which are faid now to be the'reigning fins. And though men were not prefently openly lafcivious and profane ( for the older Wickednefs grows,the bolder it isj) yet then they got loofefrom their Chains , and thefe works of Darknefs fecrecly lurk'd, and were privacely pradifed. N. C. I do not believe you. C. Tow will believe the Affembly ,1 am fare, and they fay fo. N.C. Where? C. In their Petition to the Parliament of Ju- ly 19. 1644. where they defire ( in the feventh Branch of it J that fo me fever e Courfe may bs taken ft 5 4 A Friendly Debate tak^n again fl Fornication, Adultery , and Incefl : Vvhich &o greatly abound, fay they, ESPE- CIALLY OF LATE, BY REASON OF IMPUNITY. 2V^.C. I am not concerned about this. But I affirm the Generality of the Godly people now follow us. C. Suppofe they did • you will not allow it a good Argument in other cafes to fay that all theGodljfor many Ages did fuch and fuch things, for inftance , ufe a form of Prayer, and fuch Ceremonies as ours-and therefore,why do you keep fuch a ftir with it now ? but where did you get a Lift of all the Godly, that you can tell fo exactly the major part follow you ? Were they ever brought to the Poll?And who were Judges,I pray you,in the Cafe ? You do but ftill perfift in your over-fond Love to your felves , and your own Party and way, when you talk in this manner ; For there are many ways to fhew , that they are far from being the Generality of the Godly that flock to your Meetings. N. C. Then you allow that fome Godly people follow us. C. Did I ever difpute it > Nay, does there any body doubt ( except your felves and the PapiftsJ hut that there may be Godly people of every Sort and Party > But then it is an im- perfect fort of Godlinefs which we acknowledg in them ^ and we hope God will bear with their Defefts, between a Conforntifl&cl 1 55 Defe&s, when they are fincercly humble and modeft, and do noc fanfie chcmfelves the only or the mod godly people in the World. And if you will have me fpeak my mind plainly , and not be angry ■■, I think I may fay without any rafhnefs, that your godly people are ge- nerally of the loweft Form m Ch? tft's School, as I told you before. A great deal of their Re- ligion is of their own making, ( as I lately fhewM you ) and they wane a great deal of God's Religion. JV. C. You are very envious. C. No truly. I admire the Grace of God wherefoever 1 fee it, for it is the molt lovely fight that can prefent it felf to me. But I can- not allow them to be fuch excellent Chriftians as you imagine : they rather appear to me with many Deformities. For they are ever wrang- ling about little Ceremonies. They break the Peace of the Church by this means, and feem to make no fcruple about it. They are fro* ward and peevifh, greedy of Riches, ftubborn in their Opinions , and by no means can bear with any man differing from them in matters of Dodrine.In fhort,I fee a ftranglgnorance mixt with Prefumption & Wilfulness, not without a high degree of Superftition,in thofe whom you admire for godlinefs.But then there is a fort of ptoplewho injoythat nameamongyoujn whom I can fee nothing but an humour of Defpifing and Railing at all ancient received Cuftoms , how [l$6 r A Friendly Debate how go6d foever 5 Together with a fulien De- votion, and fuch a turbulent nature, as will give no reft to thtmfelves or others. And they have one peculiar Quality>proper to themfelvs alone • which is to revile cur Minifters even as they go along the ftreets : a thing which I could never obferve our ungodly people to be guilty of towards your Minifters,who may pafs peaceably enough : nay, J think is iot com- mitted in any Country in the World, where they are of different Religions. Perhaps you will fay , that ours would do it , did not the power of the Lord over-awe them and fhut up their Mouths, that they may not reproach his faithful Servants.But this is only a cart of your skill in fearching the Hearts of men, and gives us a tr Are they not all bred up in your Churches ? Do they not all frequent your Meetings ? And do not by-ftan- ders of your Perfwafion laugh and rejoyee when they fee this Contempt poured on them > Do they not feem to encourage thofe by their Applaufes , who are fo rude and in- folent in their behaviour toward good men ? And yet thefe (tile themfelves the £otlj y and take it ill if we do not think them fo. Thefe you are content to wink ac, that your Con- gregations may be full. Your Minifters dare not preach down thefe Abufes • left they ihould be thought to be friends to N.C. :«. 158 A Friendly Debate N. C. There will be fome bad people every where. C. /am glad to hear you fay fo. By and by you will confefs that there may be alfo good people every where, and that fome of our Mi- nitowers may be good • though your Revilers make no difference, but if they fee a man in a Caflbck, prefently throw dirt in his face, and call him a Limb of Anti-Chrift, or fomefuch thing. So bruitifh and outragious are the Paf- fions of this Heady people. So wonderfully do they profit in your School in thofe new Ver- tues ef Hatred to ancient Cuftoms and Habits, though never fo innocent, and Hatred or An* ger to all that are not of their Way. For fuch is the Fire,/have fometimes feen in their Eyes, when they meet one of our Minifters , that one would think they had a mind to burn them up. And / make no doubt they would call up- on your Prophets, if they were but like Eli- jah , to call for Fire down from Heaven to confumeus.You may condemn their Folly per- haps ; but whatfoever you are plsafed to fay , they are the moft Zealous of your Party, and think themfelves the moft godly. And for any thing / can hear, they may think fo (till. h not being the manner of your Preaching , to meddle with fuch things as thefe ; nor the time, /doubt, to be named when you heard a Sermon to reprove the fcurrilous and railing language of fome among you againft xheEng- lijh between a Cmformijl&c . 1 555 h(b Clergy. No, the way hath been, and / doubt /till continues, to declaim only againft Superftition,and Formality,and Will- worfhip, and fometimes againft Morality ; and then to exhort the people to prize Ordinances,andfeek after pure Ordinances.and admit of no humane Mixtures. But whileft the poor people are thus afnghted, and made exceeding timorous left they fhould be righteous over-much^ fol- lowing vain Traditions of men; they have little or no fear wrought in them of being ypkkedover-mttch^ Schifm,and Difobedience, and letting loofc their furious Pa/lions and un- ruly Tongues ; by reviling God's Minifters, nay, by defpifing Governments, and fpeaking evil of Dignities. N. C. / think they fhould be taught to fear thefe things more than they do. C. /, and they fhould be taught not to think themfelves godly too foon. YV hereas the man- ner hath been quite contrary,to breed in them an opinion of their Piety , if they be but a praying people, and follow Ordinances, and frequent private meetings. And when they are taught on fuch eafie terms to call themfelves gracious and god/j, then your Minifters make this an Argument againft us, that all or moft of the Godly are on their fide. And now it comes into my mind, that this was the Pre- tence wherewith they countenanced the lare Rebellion, as now /fuppofe, you will give us [i66- X A Friendly Debate us leave to call it. But to let you fee how idle and frivolous fuch Arguments were, and that they might ferve any bodies purpofe ^ it was not long before you were numbred among the ungodly: For the Army learnt to call 1 themfelvs the only god /y party ,and in a manner excluded you. Though I believe You would have HkM it well enough, if a Painter had drawn a man with his Eyes lifted up to Heaven and one hand on his Breait, with the other Hand in his Neighbors purfe, or cutting of his Throat; and writ over it this Infcription, An Army- Saint, I mean, you thought them an un- godly & untoward generation. But whatfoever you thoughc,the Argument was as plaufible & fuccesful for them as it had been & is for you : for the people were Orangely drawn away by it. This cut off the King's Head ; that it was for the fafety of the godly. This was in a fair way to keep our prefent Soveraign from returning to us ^ that thofe that feared the Lord were againft it, and would be undone by it. And I find that to this day this pretence of godlinefs hath left an imprefiion on fome peoples minds,and excufes all thofe impieties. For not long fincel heard one commending them for a very gracious people: and when ic was foberly obje&edjthat they were unjuft, & even Cruel,and Falfe, and Turbulent, and Dif- obedient to their own Governors, and Trou- bles of the Nation i it was anfwered,that not- with- between a ConformiJi t Sici 1 6 1 with/landing all thefe things, there was more Grace among them than there is to be found now-adays. Meaning, /fuppofe, by their Grace, that they were a praying fecple , and much infeekjng ho arc £ood^ ( K e. that have no Xindnefs for men who are folidly Good,) or, as our Transition feems to take ir, fuch as contemn true Vertue , as a mean thing: T-a'tors^ that is, fuch as will betray their beft Friends and Companions , fortoferve th?ir own Interelt: Heay, thac is,rafh, inconfiderace, impudent and bold peo- ple ^ ready for any bad DeMgn : High-mini- edj or men pufc up and fwoln with an Opini- on of themfelves, of their own Knowlcdg % fuppofe, or Piety : Lovers of Picture no<-e M Z than [i&4 r J Friendly -Debate than lovers of god, or fuch as pretend to God, only to have a better opportunity to fatisfie their defires of pleafure. And in conclufion, he tells us that they were of this number who in thofedays crept intofrlkj houjes^nd insinuat- ed themfelves into the Favour of filly womtn^ having a defign either upon their Wealth, or their Chaftity. And Women they were for their turn • being ledawa) With divers Lufis , ever learning) and never coming to the know- ledge of the truth ; that is y always frequenting Chriftian Aflemblies, but getting no good by them : or t\(t opening their Ears to every Wind o/Z>0#r*»,defiring ft ill to hear fome new thing, running from place to place where any novel Teachers were : but remaining juft as wife as they were before, and not a whit the better for all the Sermons they heard. N.C. Me- thinks you have made me a fhort Sermon ; at leaft I have heard the Doctrinal part of it : would you would come to the life and tell me what you gather from hence. C. I gather two things, and leave you to ga- ther the reft. N. C. What are they ? C. Fir/I; that all this Wickednefs which I have defcribed from the Apoftle will conflft with a Form or (hew of Godlinefs. For that's a part of the character of thefe very men, verf.5. Having a Form of Godlinefs, &C. Secondly, I collect from hence, that, thofe men have the Power between a Confortnifl&c. 1 6y Po\\>er ofgodlinefsv/ho are of a difpofition quite oppofice to them now named : Such, /mean, as deny themfelvsfor God's and their Neighbor's fake ; that fit net their hearts upon getting Rich- es 5 that are Immble and modeft j that reverence their governors, and find) in word and deed to preferve their Authority • that honour their Ba- rents , though not of their Opinion , or perhaps ungodly ^ that are fenfible of Benefits, and grate- ful to their Benefatlors j that fiudy Purity and Chaftitj ; that are kind and tender ly^affecled to their Relations 5 that kz e p theirT aith^and perform their Promifes, though to their own damage • that are eafi'y reconciled, if they have been grofly inju- red ; that fpeak^well if they can, of their Neigh- bours, ani are not ready to believe every Story of them-dhat endeavor to preferve an even Temper^ that command their pajjions, are fie ady and uni- form in their Attiont - 3 that are meekjind fubmif- five ; peaceable and fociable - that love Vtrtue Vvherefoever they fee it, and do not defpife or re- proach it under the name ofmeer Morality • that are faithful to their Trufl ; fober, advifed and conjiderate in their Undertakings •, that have no hi ^h Opinion of them fe Ives \ and love Goi above all things ^ that choofe rather to keep at home, and mind their oven Concerns, than to be prying into th? Secrets of their Neighbors Houfes ; tint have no other Dcfign npen any y cither CfiLin or Woman, than to make them good? and further their increafe in true fVifdom. Thefe, and fuch M 3 lite 1 6 6 A Friendly Debute like men in whatfoever place you find them , undoubtedly have the Power of Godtinefj, though they fhould not talk of it fo much.as others ? N.C. I fee you are able to preach,if you lift. C. If I fhould think fo, I fhould run into the company of thofe proud and high-minded men, whom I now fpake of. I can oniy repeat a good Sermon to you, which I have heard. NC. You would have me preach, or at leall: make a piece of a Sermon ; for you told me you would leave me to gather the reft from yourdifcourfe. C. It's proStable to Preach to your fel( fuch things as you read and hear, and to prefs upon your Heart fuch Truchs,as you cannot but ob- serve plainly follow from them, though they were not named. N.C. And what do you think I fhould ga- ther from what I have heard you fay ? C. I told you it would be beft to leave you to confider what farther Ufe is to be made of this Character. But if you would have me direct you ; then you may be pleafed to confider , when you are alone by your felf, whether any part of it belong to thofe,whom you call Godly or to thofe vvhom.we eiteem fo : or, which is all one,you may confider whether thofe oppo- fite Qualities, wherein I told you the ,Power ofgodtinefs confifts, be to be found n:oil among your,orour Godly. Always carrying this in your mind, t'lat we do not call all them_ Godly who between a Conformiftficc. 7 67 who are of our Party, as you are wont to do. Our Minifters, I allure you, will not allow them to enjoy this name, who are Lovers of thcmfclves, Covetous, Boafters, Proud, FaJfe, Fierce, Heady, &c. But whether many fuch do not pafs with you for Godly men, and cry out againft the Form of Godlinefs,while they have lictle elfe, I leave you to judg. N.C. Truly, I thought once that the Power of Godlmefs had confided in keeping the Sab- bach, in repeating Sermons, having a Gift of Prayer, and ufing it in our Families,treafuring up and communicating Experiences, and meet- ing together to exercife our Cjifts. And, now it comes into my mind on a fudden, this is a thing which hath made me fear you want at leaffc a great deal of the power of Godlinefs, that you never ksep * T>aj together. C Strange ! I thought on the Contrary,thac this had been one of our Accufations •, our keeping too many days. N.C. Really, I never heard that any of you kept one. C. What did you never hear, that we have a Holy-day at left once a Monech, and fome- times more, which we always obferve ? N. C. Pifh ! I perceive you understand not my Language. I mean, that we keep a private Day together, which we fet apart for Prayer, and humbling our fclves before God , and hearing the Word. M 4 C. 1 6 8 A Friendly Debafe C. Alas ! How fhould I guefs atyour mean- ing ! when as I thought you would have kept no Days but that of God's appointing. N. C. Yes, we can keep other Days, and think we ought, at lead that there is much Re- ligion in it. C. Why then will you not keep thofe which your Governors appoint > Have you power to appoint Days, and not they ? I am forry to fee your partiality, and that you are fo full of Humour, as not to do things when you are bidden, and yet to do the fame when you are not bidden, nay, when you are forbidden. N.C. 0,but we do not keep days,as you do. C. What's that to the Purpofe ? Seeing what we do is good, why fhould you not joyn with us in it ? You pray,and fo do we : You read the Scriptures and fo do we : you give thanks to God,and that's part of our Buiinefs.Only we do ft in pnblick,and you in private 5 we when our Governors would have us, and you when it pleafes your felves. N. C. We not only pray,but hear a Sermon Jilfo, when we keep our Days. C. So you may at feme of our Churches, if you pleafe,every Holy-day. But what a foolifh Conceit is this,to think that this makes a Day not to be well cbferved^ifwe want a Sermon * This is a piece of the Saperftition I told you of. For was it not always the chief Dcfign of thofe Days we obferve,to ackno.vledg God, to praife between a Conformift&c] \6g praife him in all his wonderful Works, to me- ditate on his admirable mercy in fending his Son,in giving him to dy for us, in railing him from the dead,in fending the Holy Ghoft, and after that the bJefled Apoftles to preach the Gofpel ? And is not this fufficient work for one Day ? Or cannot we meditate upon the holy Scriptures then read, or on the Sermon we heard the Lord's Day before •, but we mull needs have a new Sermon, or elfe think God is not glorified, nor well pleafed ? I am 3mazed at the grofs Abfurdity of fuch Fancies. N.C. You may be fo ; but we (hall never leave them, nor come to Church, till you have more than Common prayer on thofeDays. C.I cannot underitand anyReafon for thatRe- folution.For if you be not fatisfied with ourSer- vice, but yet muft needs have fomething elfe ; why do you not come to the pubiick Prayers & Praifes firft and then make up. their Defeds(as you conceive) in your private Meetings ? Or why do you not feek and endeavour that thefe dayes may be kept more Religioufly, feeing pubiick Pfaifing God is far better than private, and doth him more honour in the World ? For my part,I verily think(and I fpeak itfincerely) that if you would come to Church, and there Joyn in the pubiick Service of God,and then go hoRie,and fpend fome other part of the Day in Catechiiing your Children, inltructingyourSer- vants,teaching them among othermatters,how to i 70 A Friendly Debate toufcthe Liberty Ton then allow them dif- crcetly and foberly, and in vifiting,inviting or relieving your poor Neighbours ; it would be a thing far more acceptable to God, and more for the honour of Chriftian Religion, and the good of Souls, than a whole day of Prayer and hearing Sermons. JV. C I am not yet of that mind. C. Why ? look over all the Families you know,and fee if many of them be not mifera- bly negle&ed , whillt their Mailers and Mi- Itrefles are ks e f %n i Dayes, as you call it. And then tell me, whether they fpend their time to fo much Profit and true Comfort as I would have them. i\T. C. I think fome may be too negli- gent. C.Why do not your Minift ers chide them,and exhort the goodWomen to keepmore at home,. & not^under a notion of Relig ion,negIe& their neceflaryDuties?It were eafy to tell you of fome who are the worft Wives,and Mothers,and Mi- ftrefles,in the Parifh,meerly upon this account, that molt of their time hath been taken up in gadding about to thofe privateExercifes. Some- times you are mightily offended at our Holy- days upon this account, that they take up too much of mens times from their Bufinefs- & yet you can be content to fee aDay fee a-part every Week, ifnotoftner, by your felves , to the great Dammagcof many Families. And fo, when between a Conformifl&cl 1 7 1 when the Fit is upon you, we are told that Ma- gillrates ought not to bind the people to ob- serve Days, which is co make that necefTary which God hach left free : But yet notwithftan- ding you your felves ftick not to lay fuch a ne- ce/Tity upon men of obferving Dayes, now and then,as if there were a Divine Commandment for it ^for you think they have no Religion, or want the Power of u , that d > not. And what a ftir do you keep to have Lectures on the Week-days ; as if we were dead, and had buc a TS^ame to live, unkfs we hear a Sermon or two, then ? whereas very good Chriftians , perhaps,have no more time to fpare from their honelt Imployments, than they ought to be- ftow in private Prayer and Medication ; digeft- ingof what they heard the- Sunday before; fearching ferioufly into their Confciences,and conftant Examination of their Lives and Acti- ons ^ in conferring with their Minifters about their Doubts, or thofe Tndifpoficions, or, per- haps, ill Inclinations, which they find in their Souls ; in Comforting the poor and the fick ; in Endeavouring to reconcile Differences a- mongNeighbors- in confulting how toadvance the publick Good eicher of the City or Town wl'ere they live, ?nd difcharging the publick Office welJ,to which they may be called. If af- ter all this done, they can find any leifure to hear a Sermon, who is there t'lat forbids it ? We are only afraid, left whilft the necefli- [172 A Frkndly Debate ty of that is fo much urged,things more necef- fary fhould be negle&ed. N.C. You fay a great many notable things ; but yet to me you feem a man of a flight Spirit, which you betray when you fpeakof thefe weighty matters. C. If you mean that I flight many of thofe things which you think matters of great weight and moment; I cannot contradid you.. But why you fhould thence concJude,IhaveayZ^j Spirit, I fee no caufe : For therefore I flight them, becaufe I have throughly confider'd and examin'd them, and find there is nothing but Fanfie or Superftition at the bottom of them. Mifrake me not -, your honeft ArTe&ions 1 do not flight, but the things to which you are fo aflfe&ed. As for inflance, you abound in infig- nificant Phrafes,and$cripture-Expreilions mis- applied : You have a great many Superfluous Conceits & Opinions, and oftimesalledg your Experiences very abfurdly N.C- Nay,now you difcover your felf.Doth not this argue a profane Spirit,toyZi^r £xperi- ences, when the Apoftle mentions Chriftian Experience as a part of our Rejoycing and GJory ? Rom, 5. 4. C. I do not flight bis Experiences, but jours ; and not all of jours neither. lor if by your Experience you meant, that you had made a proof of your Conllancy and Yaithfulnefs to C brjft.by patient enduring ofanyAffl id-ion for Righce- between a Conformift,8cc 1 1 7 3 Righteoufnefs fake ^ and made a Trial alfo of his Faithful nefs, in performing his promifesof giving us Strength, Support, and Comfort, ( which I conceive is the Apoftle's meaning : ) I fhould accufe my felf of great Profanenefs fhould I flight it.But when yoa will nc^ds give me this word for a proof of a thing of which I know you have no Experience,and perhaps can have none j and when you aliedg your Experi- ence in a matter of Reafon, and in effed fay no more than this,I pray believe me.-you muft not take k ill,if I make light of it. As for example, when you will tell us, you find by Experience that you are in the right way •, it is a thing that may be entertained with a fmile./t is in truth no better than to fay,you may take my word forJt. For whether you be in the right or no, is not to be known by Experience,but by Reafon. In like manner, if you tell me you find by Experi- ence your Minifter is a good man becaufe he doth you good • it is a frivolous Argument,and / may be allow'd to flight it 5 for ic cannot be known by yourExperience,what he is. You can only know by your Experience, that you are made better ; but he may be bad enough not- withftanding. As the Quahrs werereformM of Cheating andCoufenage in fome places by thofe,who there is great reafon to fufpe&,were cheating knaves themfelves. iV.C.But /may know by Experience whether the things he preaches be true or no. C. J 74 -^ Friendly Debate C. It will deceive you, if you rely upon that Proof. Tor you may have fome good done you by faife Principles. Nay, thofe very Principles may make you do fome things well,which fhall make you do other things ill* N.C\ That's ftrange. C Not fo ftrange, as true. For what Prin- ciple was it that led the Stl 4a kl rs to be juft in their dealing ? N. C. That they ought to follow the Light within them. C. This led them alfo to be rude and clown- ifo, and difrefpe&ful to Governors. For all is not Reafon, that is in us : there is a world of Fanfie alfo: and theFlafhes of this now and then are very fudden and amazing • juft like Light- ning out of a Cloud. By this they find they were mif-ltd in many things, which they have now forfaken : being content to wear Hat- bands and Ribbons too, which they fo much at thefirft abominated. N.C. I take them to be a deluded people. C.And yet they are led, they will tell you,by Experience. For they found themfelvs amend- ed by entring into that Religion,whereas they cheated and coufened in all other Forms wher- in they were before. And therefore do not tell me any more of the good you have got by your private meetings, nor make it an argument of their La. vfulnefs. For the fame Argument will be ufed againfl your felvs by the ^^r/jwho will between a Conformifl>8tc. 1 75" will tell you, God is in no private Meetings but only theirs, for otherwhere they could never find him. Take your choice : and either Jet it alone your feives, or dfe allow it them. It will either ferve both, or neither. N.C. But I have feen you fmile,if one bring his Experience to prove the truth of Chriftian Religion. C. Yes, and very defervedly : Becaufe the Ground upon which we believe it to be true, cannot be known by Experience ^ nor is your Experience of any thing in it 2 Ground for any other man to believe it. You cannot know,for infhnce,Ly your Experience, that our Saviour was born of a Virgin , that the Holy .Ghoft came upon him at his Baptifm with a Voice from Heaven, faying, This is mj net 11* beloved Sonjn whem lam wellpleafed.You cannot know by that means that he dyed , that he rofe the third day, that he went to Heaven forty dayes after, and after ten dayes more gave the Holy Ghoft ; and that S. Paul was itruck blind with the Glory of our Saviour, whom ye fawand heard, and was fent by him to preach the Gof- pel. N.C. Yes, I feel that he and the reft of the Apoftles fpeak the very truth. C. They fay all thefe things ; and do you know them by your feeling ? The Apoftles in- deed, felt,or fa w,or heard them j but we can- not do fo, nor know them by any other means than their Teftimony. N.C. Jjtf A Friendly Debate N.C. /feel that their Teftimony is true. C. What ? Do you fed that they fay true , for inftance, when they tell you that our Savi- our turnM Water into Wine,and that he raifed Lazarus from the dead ? N.C. No, / know thefe things other- ways. C. 1 hen you mull: know the reft, by the fame means that you know thefe, viz,, by believing Eye-witnelTes of thefe things,who you find are perfons worthy to be credited. N.C. But / feel the Commands of Cbrifi are exceeding good, and agreeable to humane Nature, which the Apoftles have delivered to us. C. That is,you find it good to live foberiy and peaceably ; to be charitable to others, ana to take up your own Crofs with Conrented- nefs and Patience N.C. Yes. C. But may not thefe things be felt by Hea- thens as well as you ? And may not they by Experience commend the pra&ice of thefe Vertues to us ? N. C. /think they have done it. C. Then this Experience of the goodnefs of Cbrift's Commands is no proof of our Creed, by which we are diftinguidied from Heathens. No,nor will yourExperience prove to any man that Chrifl's Commands are excellent , any farther than he believes that you fay true , when between a Conformift&c. 1 7 7 when you tell him what trial you have made of the beft kind of Life , and that you are a perfon fit to judge of the Difference of things. N.C. Methinks I feel that feftu Ckrifl is in the Heavens, and in great Power and Glory- there. C. Whatfoevcr you kcl in this matter, it is the Effitt of your belief, not the Cauft of it. I mean, you tfrft believe, that he is in Glo- ry •, before you cm feel any good hopes in your Soul of immorcal Life. And you believe his being in Glory upon good ReafonS; elk you do not know but entertain your felf with a pleafant Dream, both of his Glo- ry and yours. AndlafMy, whatever you feel it is no proof of the truth of the thing , but only of the truth of jour Belief. It is to be proved othervvife that Chrift reigns glorioufly in the Heavens, and is able to bring us into his everlafting Kingdom : only your being fo mightily arTe&ed with it, proves that indeed you believe it. But you had beft look you have good Reafons for your Vaith.For all the Seve- rities of the Religious men among the Turks , prove likewife that they believe ftrongly in Mahomet : though I hope, if they quote their Experiences never fo much, you will not be a Difciple to their Prophet, and hope he will take you by the hair of the head, and pull you up to Heaven. N N.C. 178 A Friendly Debate N.C. I find that you are able to talk more rationally than I can in thefe nutters. But yet I find likewife, there is another kind of Spirit in our people than in yours. For they delight morevrs Heavenly Dlfconr\e y and are al~ Wajes talking of Re Upon when they are toge- ther : which argues they are not of fo flight a Sprit as others, who love to difcourfe of unprofitable things. C.Do you and I talk frothily, (as your phrafe is ) and fpend our time in unprofitable Chat ? Is this Difcourfe earthly,and not at all pertain- ing to Religion ? And, deal (incerely with me, do not you fometime, when you are together, pafs the time away in fpeaking againft Bifliops and Common-Prayer, and the Government ? Do you not know fome that are ever complain- ing of the Times in which we live, and faying the former Dayes were better than thefe ? And are the Reafons of this murmuring fo Heavenly as you fuppofe ? Do they not fay the Nation was in more Credit ; and had a better Reputation abroad, and they a better Trade at home, and fuch like things ? N.C. I cannot deny but I have heard fome Profeffors talk thus. But there are a great num- ber that you (hall fcarce ever hear talking of any thing elfe but Heaven,and Jefpu Chrift ,and the bufinefs of their Souls. C. And fuch people there arc in alf Parties and Scfts in the Chriftian World •, who per- between a Conformifl&c* 1 7 g perhaps are never awhic the better for that. N. C. How irreligioufly you talk > C. Not at all. For unlefs they take a true delight in God, and in that Heavenly Dif- courfe above all other things, and unlefs they underftand what they fay , and delight alfo to do God's will in all things : I think they had as good be talking of, or doing fomething elfe. N.C. Can they poflibly be better im- ploy'd ? C Yes, that they may. For if they only tumble out a great many words and Phrafcs which they have icarn'd, they had better be Studying what the Religion of Jtfns Chrlft is. And if they talk of thofe matters meerly as it is a Duty, and be not fo heavenly- minded as that, whensoever they have leifure, it is the greate/l joy that can be to be thinking or dif- courfing of them ; they will do this after i\ very bad fafhion, when fome other good thing they might have done better ; as, vifited the Sick, inquired after the Wants of the Poor , or ordered fome Parifh-bufinefs. And again, unlefs they be very prudent, and do not think they mult, needs draw the Company wherein they are (who are ingagM,perhaps, in other neceflary Bufinefs ) to hear their difcourfe j I think their room, as we fay, would be bet- ter than their company, or, that it were bet- N 2b ter 1 8 o A Friendly Debate that they would hold their peace. For if a man take himfelf to be bound in Confcience to be always fpeaking of thefe things, ( as I doubt many do ) it is the effect of Superftition y which makes Religion a great burthen to a man's felf and others. For whether he and the Company be difpofed or no, this he thinks is his Bufinefs which he often manages very dully, and without any Tafte : thereby ren- dring Chriftianity Contemptible, and making himfelf alfo (till more flat and indifpofed for all honeil imployments. All which confidered , 1 leave you to judge,whether that man had not better have beftow'd his time otherways • for then he might at the end of it have been good for fomething , whereas now he is good for nothing at all • but mopifhly fits bewailing himfelf, and complaining of the deadnefs of his heart. N.C. Ought not a man to be always think- ing of Heaven ? C. No : He may and ought fometime to think of other things. And he fhould do it without any Scruple, not fearing that he is ill imploy'd, when he doth not break God's Commands. N.C. He may be meanly imploy'd. C. That is,he is but a Man,and not yet come to the degree of an Angel. 2\£.C. But when others are recreating them- felves between a ConjormytyOCC. 1 5 1 felves, (as you call k) ours are talking of Hea- ven. C. If it be their choice, and if they do not negleci any necefTary Bufinefs , nor cenfure others that cio nor as they do • I have nothing to fay againfl them. But, as I told you, there are fo many fuch like people in all Religions, that you muft not imagine this is a thing pe- culiar to yours. And if they think they offend God,if they do othenvife,and if they condemn thofe that now and then innocently recreate themfelves, and figh over them as if they were loft 1 ; they troubje the World and themfelves, to fay no worfe, a great deal too much with their Sftpfrftizicn. N.C. You give liberty to your people even to go t$fee PUys. C. Did you ever hear any of our Minifters commend Plays for a good Divertifement to their people ? 2\Tc. No, But they do not difcommencf them, and (hew how unlawful it is to ufe fuch paftimes. C How fhould they, when they never yet law it prov'd that they maynot be lawfully ufed? But they preach againfl all undue and inordi- nate ufe of lawful pleafures,among which they number this for one. And in this bufinefs, they are as faithful as your Minifters could be, were they in their places • and perhaps a great deal more difcreet. N 3 2v;.c. 1 8 2 A Friendly Debate N.C. Thefe difcreet men have fpoii'd Reli- gion. C. You (h on Id have fa id indifcreet men, for that is the truth ; who declaim fo violently a- gainft innocent things, that they are not at ail regarded when they fpeak againft things Sinful. Their Zeal is equal againft things in- different and things unlawful ^ and fo the peo- ple eafily imagine •, there is no more reafon againft the one than againft the other.Befides, they lay Burthens upon men which are not ne- ceffary, and make Cbrifi'sYoak heavier than in- deed it is , which is a great Difcouragement and Hindrance to fome, making them un- willing to fubmit themfelves to him. And a- gain,they intangle Religious People in a world of Scruples, which make their lives very un- comfortable. N.C* Then your Minifters, belike, al- low your Religious people to go to a Play. C. You have put a good word in my mouth \ they do I believe, allow it in due meafure; In- courage them to it they do not 5 but yet cannot fay,ifthey beask'd the queftion, that they (in, if they do. N.C. They might tell them,/ hey may be bet- ter imphy'd. C. What Authority have they to pronounce that in general terms? Sometimes they may, and between a Conformift&c. 1 83 aril fometime, perhaps, they may not. And befide this, if we be always bound to do that which is bed;, (which you fuppofe) we can ne- ver tell whether we pleafe God or no; but (hall be ingag'd in cndkCs Doubts. For it is an hard matter fometime to difcern which is beft : and one thing may appear bell , when I confider fuch andfuch things; and another will feem beft, when I retted upon other, mat- ters. And I may verily be perfwaded, look- ing but at a few things, that this thing is beil for me to do, which indeed is rather bad, and ihould not be done. As, I may conceive it beft to wear no Lace, noRibbans, no fine Cloth or filk, but give all the money I fpend in fuch things to the Poor : whereas this may prove very pernicious, though it have a fhew of great piety; and maintain many poor m idlenefs, that love not Work ; and fpoil the Labors and Trade of many others,who would not live idlely. Farther, how much time mud we pafs in refolving which is beft in every action we do ? as whether it be beft to eat now, or flay a while longer ■ to drink this Cup of Wine which is offered me, or refufe it • to talk with a Friend or to part with him : to vifit a Neighbour,or to ftay at home ? And while we are deliberating in this fafhion, the thing might be done which we had a mind jmto • and we might be returned to that which N 4 pofli- 184 A Friendly Debate portibiy wc thought would be bell. It is fuffici- ent, therefore, that we be well imploy'd ; and we ought not to torment our felves, and mif- pend our time in fears, left we have not done the beiL Let us but confider , whether no neceflary Duty toward God or Man, that we are capable of, will be neglected, when we go to divert our felves : and then we fhould not fpoil our innocent Delights with needlefs Jealoufies. N.C. But furely this liberty you give, will do people hurt, for they are apt to take too much of it. C.Many will rakeit,whether we give it them or no. But I can afliire you there are many ex- cellent perfons of extraordinary pietyfwhom I know) who will not take it, though we give it. Not that they think it an unlawful thing,as you do; but they have noufe for that Liberty. They are above fuch pleafures, and can find imploymentor ingenious Divertifement that is far more fweec to them. I know others that fcruple not the thing at all, and yet judge it not fo expedient for them in their place and relation ; and fo wholly forbear it : which is *>rar greater Vertue than that which you boaft of ^ as much as it is more noble to abftain from thofe pleafures we think lawful,than to be reftrained only from thofe which we think are finful. I am acquainted with others alfo that_ go between a Conforwift&c . 185 go to Plays, but very rarely, only for a harm- lefs Recreation when they are dull, or to ac- company a¥riend, that earneltly importunes their company. And thefe , mcthinks, are as much above thofe,whofe Piety you fo much admire-, as k is an harder thing to abftain from the pleafures of which we have tailed and rind to be very agreeable to us, than to forbear thofe, to which we are ftrangers, and know nothing of. Befides thefe, I know o- thers that go oftner ; and yet I dare not fay , they are not pious , becaufe I fee by all their actions that they love God and Man. And I have heard them fay, that the time they fpend on thatfafhion, doth not hinder them in any Chriftian Duty that they know of, (and yet they are not negligent to inform themfelvs ) and is a great deal better fpent than in talking againft ones Neighbours, or hearing others rail upon the ill management of Affairs, and find fault with the times, or fuch like things. N.C. None of thofe things need be done neither. C. It is true. But they want company,& they can find little of any fort, where thofe things are not their entertainmeft.And it is very con- siderable, that fuch people pafs for Godly a- mongyou,whofpend many hours in talk ofthac nature now mention'd-and therefore we would fain know why we may not with better reafon call \%6 A Friendly Debate call thofe Godly chat go to Plays, and other- ways are unreproveable. I fay with better Reafon ; both becaufe this is at Jcaft more in- nocent ( if it be not perfedly biamelefs ) than backbiting ones Neighbours j and our Godly do nothing but what they allow, whereas yours do that which they cannot but condemn. I am alfo of the opinion, that our Minifters fpeak as often (if not more frequently) againffc the excefiive ufe of that Recreation ; as yours do againft all Bitternefs, Wrath, Anger, Back- biting, and Evil-fpeaking, which are altoge- ther unlawful. N.C. I did not think you would have jufti- fied thefe things fo far as you do. C. You need not have a worfe opinion of me for that, becaufe I do it not to juftifie my felf. For I am one of thofe that never faw a Play in my life , nor ever intend to fee one. I could wiih alfo there were not fo many afted, becaufe they invite men, perhaps, too often to them. But tell me, I pray you, why one may not as well look upon a PicWe, as upon the man himfelf wham it reprefents ? or, why a Painter fhould be commended, and a Player condemned ? N.C. I underftand you not. C.A Play doth but prefent mens Actions be- fore you, as a Pi&ure doth their faces. And fince you fee fuch things done every day as they there between a Conformift&c . 187 there reprefent, why may you nor fee both the things and the Reprefentation of them, if you have a mind ? Nay, tell me why they that do, fhould not bethought to fpend their time 2$ well as you, that can hear long Stories of the Bifhops,or of fuch and fuch a Parfon,(as you in fcorn,though very fooJi(hIy,call our Minifters- for fome of them are but Vicars } and you your felvs would be glad to hold a good Parfonage, as many Lay-men dojor of fome of yourXeigh- bors 5 whofe Life and(perhaps) domeftick and private Affairs, you having pry'd into, can be talking of half a day togetherfThis is,in truth, no better than hearing of a Play ; only you do not fee it. That is, you hear the fame things, that others both hear and fee a&ed in a Play ; and there is a great deal of Art, and Wit, and Fancie, and you have none. N.C. 1 think our time ought not to be fpent in either of thefe, as I told you before. C. I am well content it fhould be fo.But let our people be as Godly as yours*, (if this be all you have to fay againft them ) fince you confefs they do both alike,or are not much dif* ferent. Do not caft them out of the Houfe of God meerly becaufe they go to a Piay-houfe : But hope, that though you are gilt more glori- oufly, yet they may be as good Metal as you. And therefore let them (land upon God's Cup- board no lefs than your felves. A r .C\ i88 A Friendly Debate N.C. How come you to talk thus Metapho- rically , and indeed obfcurely? For though I guefs at your meaning, yet it is not fo plain as you pretend to fpeak. C. A great deal plainer than W. B. fpeaks ; who, in one of the Ten Sermons I told you of, informs us,that God is departed from the Na- tion, but will return again, becaufe he hath left a great Cup-board of plate behind him. Believe it Chriftiant, fays he, God hath a very treat Cup- board of plate in this T^ation^Chrifl hath much plate in England, a* much m in any Nation in the World • and he will not lofe his plate. But he will not tell us how he is gone, nor when he went, nor what drove him away, nor what his Return will be,no nor what mark there is upon the plate,whereby we may know it.And I doubt you would not be well pleafed, if I fhould go about to guefs what he means by all this. • N.c. Nothing but what is good, you may l>e fare. C. Let the King look to that, and get it expounded • for I believe he is concern'd to know, whether the time when God went a- way was not when he came into England lair, and fo whether he mud not be gone andpack'c away,when God returns again to you. N.C. I do not like this Difccmrfe. C. Do you mean of mine, or of his ? N.C, Of neither. C. between a Confer mift&cl \%p C. It's well you do not approve of his ; but why you (hould diflike mine, I know not. For if you your felf was a King^ow would look up- on them as dangerous people, who fhould fup- pofe God hadforfaken yourKingdomfince you came to it. 2^.C. He means,perhaps, no more but that God hath deferted the m, who are his people, and once enjoy'd more liberty than now they do. C. You cannot excufe him fo ; for the Title of his Sermon tells you that it relates either to a Soul, or to a Nation. And in the body of the Difcourfe ( if it deferve that name ) he of- ten applies it to this 2{at ion faying, tvkatjhall we do that God'may return to this l^ation ? N.C. He would not have you think that he is quite gone, for he only faith, God u much departed^ and gone in great weafare. C. True : But his meaning is plainly this • that he would be quite gone, but that he and fuch like are here. Were but they removed, God would have no dwelling among us. It's they that lay hold on him, and will not let him totally depart. They are his Plate,and as long asthatremains,hehathfomethingtoingagehis affed:ions,and fo will not perfectly abandon the Nation. But for all that, he complains fome- times, as ifthe Lord had abhorred and ca ft us off; telling us, that Chn ft is s fended, his Go- fvU 1 9 o A Friendly Debate fel-InflitHtions trampled on, and that it is not an eafie thing to bring him back. And it is very like- ly, if he had thought of it, he would have told yoy^That the Plate upon the Cup-board is thrown do y ^n i the Plate is batter'd andbruifed^th? Plate isAbufedandfoird. For he tells his Congrega- tion, Teu are in a Offering day, p. 478. N.C. What if he had laid f o ? C. Then, to make the Play compleat, one need only have added this, that the Plate mufi be at lea ft w e life our ed, if not a little beaten. N.C. That is, you would have us perfec- ted. C Not I ; but fince you fanfie you are perfe- cuted,when you are nor, it would not be amifs if your Folly were a little chaftifed,in order to make you thankful for the Liberty which, even by Law, you enjoy. N.C. To me your words are as bad as a Per- fection, which compare good Sermons to a Play. C. Why ! that Sermon hath more of Fiction in it than many of the Plays. For they are fome- times grounded upon anHiflorical truth;but he cntertain'd the people in hisTheatre with aplea- fantpieceofhis own pure Invention ^ telling a Story of God's Departure, and of his coming back again, & their excelling other men as much as aCup-board ofPlate doth commonFurniture and of their remaining here as a pledge of his Re- between a Conformifl ,&c .' i pi Return • when as there is no fuch thing, buc only in his and their Fancy. Only one thing, I obferve,he very wifely conceais,left it fhould happen to prove in their conceit a plain Trage- dy. For having faid, in order to affure them of God's Return, that if a man have left Plate and jewels in his Houfe, he \\>ill either come back^ to th$m,or fend for them away to him •, this pleafant Gentleman, fuppofing his Hearers ( together with his Truth and jyorJbip,i. e. their Opinions and way of ferving God ) to be the Plate ; would not difturb their Fancies by telling them that,according to the ftate of t ha tRefemb lance, Godwill either return to them, or fend for them to him,but tells them abfolutely, he will return again to them. Read his words//? 477.) Such Plate the Lord hath much of here, and he mil not lofe his Plate -, therefore he will return again, though he may afflitl , and aflicl firelj , yet he will return again. And a little after ( p. 482.)^/ fnre as the Adorning is after the Night, fo fure will God return. His going forth is pre- fared as the Morning : as certain he will return a* the Mining doth. This I mud needs fay, was kindly laid, and like a Poet- who can invent what he pleafes, and leave out what makes noc for his turn. N.C. Methmks you invent what you pleafe. And fince you are fo good at it, I pray let me know what invention you have to excufe your Plays Ip2 A Friendly Debate Piayes , which have fo much Obfcenity in them. C. It's more than I know if they have any at all. And fhouid there be any, afTure your felfjthe Ears of thofe whom we efteem Godly, are no lefs chart than yours,and would not en- dure it. But did you ever hear that any of our Minifters fpoke things fo nearly approaching to immodeity as jv. B. doth ? N. C. I fhall flop my ears, if you offer to rake into fuch matters. C. I did not intend it,were you never fo wil- ling to hear it. I would only have you know, that if I fhouid prefent you with all the filthy ExpreffionsandAllufions that I have met with- al in fuch Books as his, I fhouid make you re- pent that ever you Jed me to this Difcourfe. N.C. I cannot conceive that they fhouid fall into fuch Errors, fince they are thtftntleft [ort of men , as you very well know, and love to preach very plainlj. C. Now I underfland what you mean by plain preaching ( which you fo much talk of) viz. to ufe rude and broad expreilions. As when IV. B. faith, a little Eft ate is but a Mefs of Pot- tage, and a great Eft at e^ great Bowl of Pottage. Have I not hit your meaning ? A' C. No. between a Conformift& c. I g 3 C. Then it is very hard to know what it is. And, indeed, the Aflembly of Divines, when they direct men how to perform their Mini- ftry, and among other things tell them they muft preach plainly do not fpeak plainly them- felves in their Directory, i.e. not foasto be underflood.'Forthefeare-their words, pag. 17. The Servant of Chrift is to perform his whole Mimflrj^ &c. Tlutnljfi ih*t the mean? [I may *** dcrftund, delivering the Truth, not in the en- ticing Veords of mans wifdow^ but in Dewoxftra- tion of the Spirit and of Poster \ left the Crop of Chrift fhould be male of none ejfett. Now fince you acknowledge they cannot prophefy, nor fpeak with Tongues , nor Demonftrate their Doctrine by Miracles, % as. the Apoftles did; I would gladly know what they mean by the Demonftration of the Spirit, and of Power. I am apt to think it would puzzle a newAflem- bly,to tell us in plain words,whatthey intend- ed by that Phrafe. N.C. If you were taught of God, as they are, you would eafily know. C. We are all taught of God by the Apo- ftles , who have revealed his Mind to us , and that in a Divine manner. And therefore by pretending you are taught of God more than we,when you cannot prove it, you only fhew that youare^taught to Cant in Scripture- phrafe. Pray let's fee if you underftand any better,another Direction of theirs, which is, O to 194 ^ Friendly Debate topreack f awfully , not d^tng the workjfthe Lord nt^ligentiy. Whom do you accjunc a painful Preach* r» N. C. One that takes a great. deal cf pains. C. It is jnft as plain as ic was before ; and you give me a very good demonftracion how well you are bred to a clear and plain under- standing of things. But that which you mean, I believe, is, one who preaches of- ten. A r . C Yes. C That's the way to do the work of the Lord negligently, as common experience hath caught us. N. C. Notj if they take pains to confider what they fay. # C. But you would fee them fo often in the Pulpit, that you do not allow them time for that, and other Ministerial Duties. Hence it is, that upon all occafions they apply the Holy Scriptures, very impertinently, and interpret them negligently,and alledge that for a Proof, which is nothing to the purpofe, nay, quite contrary to that which they maintain. Wit- nefs w. B. who from that place in Hofta 6. 3 . ( his going forth is prepared as the L^loming ) would have his people believe, that God will as certainly return to them, as the morning is after night. Whereas that is only fpoken to the Ten Tribes , and the Prophet doth not between a Conformiftfkcl i g y not give them an abfoiute affurance that they (hail return to their own Land ; but only in- vites them to Repentance, and on that condi- tion promifes ; God in a little time will revive them. Nay, he requires not onJy that they fhould begin to k»ow God whom they had forfaken ; but that they fhould continue ani perfevere to know him : and then, faith he, his goini^ forth is prepared as the i^loming, j. e, he was ready to comfort them, as the iMorn- ing-light doth thofe that wait for it; and would come upon them as the Rain , which quickens and calls back the Corn to life, which otherwife would have lain dead in the Earth. It is true, w. B. faith a little be- fore, if you defire God Jhould return to jou, re- turn jott to him ^ as if there were fome conditi- on in the bufinefs. But this is only his ufual way of faying, and unfaying •, of granting promifes to be Conditional , which he would have his people believe fhall be performed abfolutel). And, indeed, fo much he had told them before this, that they might not be dif- comforted, though they did not return to God. Friends, faith hc(pag. 478.) there is a time vphenGod xv\ 11 deliver his people for his Names fake , and with a notaithftanding, i. e. notwith- ftanding ail their Sins, and notwithflanding all his Diifieafures , as he explains himfelf Now if you would know when that time is, he tells us , When a people fujftr for Ged\< O 2 ' Namt's ip<5 A Friendly Debate Names fake, then God mil deliver for his Name's fakf, then God will deliver with a not- Veithftanding, And this he would have them believe is their prefent ftate and condition. Hew is it with yon now ? ( they are his words) jou are in a fufftring day j hut are not all j,ur fujferings for the Name of Chrift f Be of good comfort then;thougkGod maj be departed,an.i your City deftroyed, yet he is not quite gone, bu' will return a^ain : that is, notwithftanding all their Sins, he would not leave them. Do you not fee how confident he is? This it is, for men to fanfy themfelves at the Fathers knee, and to be in his arms, and held in his Embraces, he Id in his Smiles, ( as he fpeaks, p. 469. ) They fay even what they pleafe, when they are fuil of this conceit; and think it is the Oracles of God. They tell you their own mind, and be- lieve it is the mind of the Lord. And when they tell it you in fuch delicate Expreflions as thefe, or fuch rude and grofs ones as thofe be- fore mentioned ; you call it plain Freacbing,and powerful Preaching. N.C. The AfTembly told you (if you would have obferv'd ) what plain Preaching is, in that very place which you quoted • where they re- quire Minifters to forbear unprofitable ufe of unknown Tongues, Irrange Phrafes, Ca- dences of Sounds and Words, and* to cite Sen- tences out of Writers fparingly, though never fo Elegant. C.By between a Conformifl&c. 19 7 C. By your favour, this is only one pare of that which they call plain preaching. For firft, they fay a Minifter mult preach in the De.nonlcration of the Spirit , and of Power : and chen it follows, Abfiaining alfo from an unprofitable ttfe , &c. So that itill we are to feek what that Preaching with FuVper means. And as for this fort of plain preaching no.v mention'J, either your Minifters do not un- derftand it, or do not mind it. For who hath more ftrange Phrafes thanW. B. ? Or, ( to pafs by him, who k*3 like regards not the Directory) who is there that ltuflfs his Ser- mons with more Shreds of Authors, and more .affeds little Sayings and Cadences of Sounds and Words, than T.w. As for his 'Power in preaching , I (hewed you before how unable it is to Rouze and Shake an Hypocrite, and bring him to Repentance. For he ftudies rather topleafehim with the enticing words of mans Wifdom, ( though after a poor fafhion ) than to make a plain Reprefentation of his Wretched State and Condition to him. If many of thofe , whom you defpiCcy had hid the handling of him, they would have turnM his infiie outward , and fet it before his eyes : They would have ripe his very Heart , and difcovered his Entrails ; that he might have beheld how he ilands di- vided between God and the World. He fliould have ken how many fecret Sins he O 3 fuffers 1 98 A Friendly Debute fuffers to lurk in his Breaft : Nay, in what a deteftable manner he referves a kindnefs for many of the vileft Sins ; fuch as are Covetouf- nefr, Oppreflion, Hard dealing, Unmereiful- nefs, Malice, Revenge, Bitternds, Wrath, Implacablenefs, and fuch like j which are the Sins of too many Religious people, that is , of Hypocrites , that are not intire and uni- form in their Religion. For an Hypocrite is not a meer Player in Religion, as T. W t fan- fies t but one that concerns himlelf "with a mighty Zeal for fome good things, and, per- haps, would rather die, than not do them, but hath no Affection for the reft of Clorifts Com- mands. He doth not only put on a Garb of piety to deceive others ; but there are a num- ber of men that love fome part of piety, and by that means deceive their own Souls. And let you and I, my good Neighbour, look to it, that we be not of that number. N. C. OurMinifters, you may well think, give us fuch Cautions. For you muft ac- knowledge, as I intimated before, ( but you would pafs it by ) that they are the ftritteft people in the Worlds and teach us fo to be. C. So were the Pharifees: For that SccT: was more curious and exact in many things than any of the reft. But thefe two things among many others you (hall obferve of them. &l*ft t that they were very defirous of the between a Confer vnift fine . 1 9 9 the peoples > > jur and biteem : the defire of pleafing, whom I doubt fomctimes betrays your Preachers into fuch rude and unhand- fome fpeeches, as I have heard and feen from them. Arid ftconMy, the bid of them (as appears in S. TapU ) were carried with a blind prepofterous Zeal, even againft the Truth of Chrifi ; which arofe from their high Eiteem of themfelves, and a Confidence they were very dear to God above all others. I wifh the like Heat, and Conceit of your infallible fpiric do not now make you violently oppoie many things which have Chhfis Stamp upon them. And then you had bed examine whether you are not firi ft people, juft as they are plain Preachers. 2V£. C Your meaning. C. I mean, notftritt. For as to me thofe are very obfeure Speakers, and hard to be under- ftood, whom you call yUin\ So it is poifible thofc may take too much Liberty, efpecial- ly in their Tongues, whom you call ftri£t f N.C. O, Sir, there are no people fo fer iota as they. C. If you mean that they look folemnly , and will not laugh , nor be merry; it is like it's true of fome of them. But whether this be the erTed of their Religion, or their Natural Temper , it is no great matter , for it doth not much commend them, Ocherwife, O 4 if 2 o o A Friendly Debate if you mean , that they long confider things , and come not to a Refolution tilJ it be late; that they ponder all their words and actions, and weigh well what they are going about ^ I doubt you will find but few of thefe Jenom perfons. "For to me, the Zeal of molt of you feems to make you heady and rafh. I have ob- ferved,for inftance, that they are apt prefently to condemn thofe that are merry- or at leaft to fhake their Heads,and exprefs their fears as if they were too vain and light- Spirited.This^Cen- fure hath a fhew of Serioufnefs, but in truth, proceedsfroma want of it. But if you mean, that they are in good earneft in their Religion : So are many of the Nuns and Triors , and other devout people among the Papifis , vihojerioujly fay their Ave Maries and Pater 2^oflers 9 and would not omit them for all the World. And fo were the ¥ hart fees a very ft- riow people , efpecially upon a Sabbath, and would not neglect their Devotions, in which they were earnelt. and long, for any good. And allure your feJf, a man may be ferious in Religion, and yet be an Hypocrite: That is,he may in good earneft do many Duties,and love to Pray, and Hear, and Repeat Sermons, and the like ^ And all the while he may in as good earned love the World very much, and ( to fay no more ) love the praife of men, and Defire to be better thought of than his Neigh- bours. In (hort, he may love Money and Efteem, htwttn a Conformifl&c^. '201 Efteem, being Covetous and Cenforious as the Pharifeeswere. N.C. You love to compare us with the Pha- rifees. Were they fuch a tender- con fcunc'd feople ? C. Yes indeed were they, in many things. They would rather dy than break the Sab- bath : They made a great Scruple of wak- ing above fo many Paces upon that day, and had infinite Ceremonies and Superftitions a- bout its Observation • of which they were fo tender, that they could not endure any body eJfe fhould break them. The Jike Tender- nefs they had about Idolatry, and many oilier things. But yet they made no bones ( as we fay ) of a Widdow's houfe, which they could devour at one bit as foon as the Sabbath was done : They were horribly Covetous and de- firous of Riches i They made no Confcience of Oppreflion and Extortion : They were monftroufly Uncharitable and Proud: They thought themfelves the wifefl: and the belt men in the world, and defpifed all others, as men that knew not what Religion meant. And left you fhould think they wanted Zeal to incrcafe their party, ( which they called Love to pure Religion ) they compffe Sea and Land ( as Cbrtft tells you ) to m*k: <* Profeljte , who, when he was gain'd, b*c?me twofold more the Child of Hell than them- felves. "Which thing I would have you ob- ferve 2 o 2 A Friendly Debate ferve, becaufe it fhews us chat men may be converted from grofs Prophanenefs to Sins of a more Spiritual and irrvifible nature ^ to Di- abolical Pride, and Malice, and ragengainft all that oppofe their Sed. And therefore you would do well to confider -gain , whe- ther there be not many fuch Converts now that hate us as much as they do Common-Pray- er, and are zealous for little d(c but to make menNon-Conformifts, and to difgrace thofe that arc not. N.C. I did not think you would have plead- ed fo hard for all the Superftitions and Super- stitious people of your Church. And, to telJ you all my mind, I (hould love your Mjnifter better, if he did not feem to love the Com- mon-Prayer fo well. For he reads it with as much Devotion as he exprefies in his own pray- ers ; and bcfides,he maintains the life of it, and the things appointed by it, ( as you do) in his private difcourfes. C. In my mind, you ought to like him the better for this,becaufe he is not an Hjpocrite> and doth not that to get a Living whien he in- wardly did ikes, nor approves that by publick pra&ice, which he difallows or difcommends in private talk. And methinks it argues too much infincerity in your felves, that you could be content , nay glad , that another man (hould do contrary to his Confcience and Frpfeflion ^ either in ufing thofe Prayers which between a Confirrnift&c*! 2 o 3 which he inwardly difa'e&s, or in fpeaking againft them ( at leaft filemly hearing them reproached ) when he is convinced of their goodnefs. Abore all , I wonder how any hone ft-hear ted man can endure him that muc- ters over the publick Prayers ( which he pre- tends by his ufe of them to like ) without any Spirit or life, on purpoie to difgrace them and bring them into contempt ; at ie Can you do more than all the men in the Kingdom ? C. Let them perfwade their people but to be of their mind , and the bu^nefs is done. N.C. Do you think they do not ? C No, I warrant you. if they did , the people would conform , though they cannor. For that which keeps this fort of Mmilters from Conforming, is not any thing to which the people are bound, butfomething particu- larly required of them. N. C. You have revealed a Secret to me. C- Itiseafy for any body to find out, that hath a mind to ir. There being nothing plainer than this, that they would have read thofe prayers which I would have you hear , if fomething dCc had not been in the way , which you are not concerned in •, and that is , renouncing the Covenant. Let them then but perfwade you to do all that they can do themfelves , and in order to that give you Ileafons why it fhould be done ; and then I may hope to fee you and I go to the fame Church between a Qonformifi, &c. 209 Church together : And for them that do not (land upon the Covenant, ( for there are fome fuch ) they have the greater reafon to exhort you to come, nay, to come themfelves, and bring you along with them. But left they fhould not do their duty, give me leave to fpeaktoyou in thofe very words which they have writ toothers; and, if you think they have now any weight in them, (as I believe you once thought they had ) we (hall not be long feparated. N. C, What have they writ ? C, In a Book call'd A Vindication of the Tresbyterial Government, &c. You will find a fpeech of. your Miwfiers and Elders in the Pro- vince of London^ to thofe that had left their Communion, and ltood in divided Congrega- tions frcm them : Which if it had any force then in your opinion, ought td prevail with you now to come and joyn your feif a- gain to us, whom you have forfaken. I will cite you fqme Faffages of it in their own words. And let me begin with thofe which you find pag, i~,o. in a diit-inft Character, fas the ftrength, I fuppofe, of what they had to fay) If we be a Church cf Chrift, and Chrift ho 1 d Communion vill: us- why do you fepa from us f If v;e he the Body of Chrift, do not they that feparate from the Body, fe par ape the Head dlfo ? *' We are loat'i to fpeak fw thin:: that may ©ffend you ; vet we intreat P " you no A Friendly Debate and obedience to Chrifr 5 ac- cording to the Rules of Faith aud Life , taught ly Chrift and his appoftles. Secondly , Suppofe there were fome finful Mixtures ( fay they ) at our Sacraments 1 yet vie conceive this is not a fuffcient ground of a Negative, much lefs of a Pofitive Separation. The Learned Author fore- mentioned tells ut , that Corruption in Manners crept into a Church y is not a fuffcient caufe of Separation from it. This he proves from Math. 23, 2 3 3. and he adds alfo this Re a f on for it; Becaufe in what Church foevsr there is Purity of Doclrine , there God hath his Church , though overwhelmed with Scandals. And thmfore whofoever feparates from fuch an Affcmbly > feparates from the place where God hath his Church S which is rafh and unwarrantable. The Church of Corinth- had fuch a profane Mixture at their Sacrament 3 as we believe few ( if any) of our Congregations can be charged withal ; and yet the Apoftle doth not perfw^de the Go'dly party to feparate y much lefs to gather a Church out of a Church. N. C. What do you tell me of the Dotlrine of a Forreign D.vine? C. They have made k theirs, by approving what he fays, in their Book. And belides they tell you , there were many Godly and Learned Nm-conformifls of the loft Age 3 that were per- P 3 f waded 214 ^ Friendly Debate [waded in their Covfcience they could not hold Communion with the Church of England in re- ceiving the Sacrament kneeling, without Sin I yet did they not feps.rate from her. Indeed, in that particular alt they withdrew y lutyetfo, as that they held Ccmmunion with her in the reft ; leing far from a Negative <> much more from i Po/iiive Separation from her. Nay, fome of them, ( mind the words ) even then, when cur Chur- ches were full of.finful Affixtures, with great Zeal and Learning defended them fo far, as to write agtinft thofe that did ft par ate from them. Who thefe Good and Learned men were? they tell you in the Margin ; Mr. Cartwright 9 Mr. Dod y Mr. HilderJbaMf Mr. Bradjhaw , Mr. Ball. N. C. Then we fliall communicate with men in their fins ; and we mult not be led to that by the ^reatert Examples. C. To prevent that,they will advife you,that if any Brother offend you ; you are not tofepa- rate from him , ( for this is not the way to ?z'w\, but to deftroy his Soul ; ) but to tell him pf if privarely,and m an orderly way to bring it to the Church. And when you hive done your Dn'y , you ih ve frcid y :ir SlmI , and my feftly and comfortably communicate in that Church with- out Sin* N C. I perceive you are read in our Wri- ters. And, truly, you have now toJd me (o much from them, ti at J fhall r.ot have fo hard between a Qonforwifl, Sec. 2 1 j hard an opinion of you> as I had before. And I hope this will preferve me from being guil- ty of the '.in of Schifm, becaufe the Nature of thatconliftsin an open breach of Chriftian Love. C. This will not ferve your turn, but you muft come and joyn in Communion with us again. For they tell you, that as he, vrho de- nies a Fundamental Article of the Faith, is guil- ty of Herefte, though he odd not Obftinacy thereto, te make him an H'eretkk^ : So he that doth unwarrantably feparate from the true Church is truly guilty of Schifm , though he' add not Uncharitahlenefs thereunto, to dencmina'e him a compleat Schifmatick* You may read the words, if you will, pag. 137. And eft er ward they tell you that to make a Rupture in the Bo* ,myMfBal! 9 and fuch like, did here- tofore. Intreat them to let you know, how they excufe thewfelvesfrqm the guilt, not only of withdrawing themfclves from our Com- munion , ( which they call Negative Schifm 5 ) but.a!fo of making an head againft us, and drawing themfelves into a diftin^t and oppo- site B"5dy 3 and fetting up a Church againft a Church which they call P,.fitive 9 and Schifm h **} °f Ewiricncy, Ask them which of the four between a Conformift^&cc. 217 four Caufes of Separation they al ledge to make their Departures from us neceflary : What we have done that fliould make it unlawful for them to communicate with us ; or rather>How we have feparated our felves from Jefus thrift, and made him difown us. If they be not able to give you very good fatisfaction in this, and in all the reft, I hope, you fee wh3t you are to do, according to their own Advice and Coun- fel. N. C. I fuppofe they will fay that they are perfecuted, which will juftifie their reparati- on. C. I cannot imagine what they (nould pre- tend, unlefs it be this. But bid them fhew you what hath befalen them , that fliould de- ferve that name. And likewife fhew , that the Perfecution is grievous, nay , intolerable, (for elfe they have told you it will not warrant a Separation « ) and one thing more defire to learn of them, which is, whether thofe things that any of them have fufrered, be not the Effect and Punifliment of their repara- tion, and not the Caufeof it. As for any Re- straints the Law hath laid upon their Liberty, they are nothing comparable to thofe that were laid on us , when they were in Power : and yet they will take it ill if they (hould be call- ed Persecutors- For if you look into an Ordinance of Parliament of it. Augtift 1 645. for putting in execution the Directory, you will find 2i 8 A Friendly Debate find thefe words : That if any per fori cr per- fons what fever, /ball at any bmt or times, here- after, ufcy or ciufe the aforefaid Book^ of Ccm- won- Prayer to be ufcd in any Churchy Chappel, or publicly place of Worfhip , or in any private place or family, within the Kingdom cf Eng- c and, cr the Dominion of Wales, or Port and 'own of Berwick ; every fitch per [on fo (fending herein, /hall for the firft iffence, pty the fum f five pounds, of lavsful Englifh money > for ike fecond cjfence y ten pounds', and for the third, jhall fuffcr one whole year Imprifonment , with" wt Bail or Mdinprife. Can you name me any Law now extant fo fevere and cruel , as this was? Do we abridge the pooreft Tradef- man fo much of his liberty, as then they would have abridg'd all the Nobles in the Land, nay (for any thing I fee) the KING himfelf, at leait his Family, which were for- . bid the ufe of Common- Prayer under fuch great Penalties ? Are you not all sllow'd to worfhip God, juft as you pleafe your felves in your own Families? Nay, may not fome of your Neighbours joyn with you, if you and they be fo minded? For fhame do not com- plain of Perfecution, when you are fo kindly ufed, who endeavoured in fuch a manner to opprefs others. And bLfh to think that you fhould feparace upon this account s which yet is all that you can have the face to pretend, to %%cult the Schifm you have made. The Com- man- between a Qonformifl^Scc. 1 1 9 won- Prayer you fee was never impofed with fuch rigor 9 as your DireZhry was And whereas you now take what liberty you lift to preach, and Write, and print what you think good againft the Common- Prayer ^ it was thenordain'd, that none fhou'd do fit agoing the Directory 5 or any thing contain d therein , ( which is a great deal mores and in cafe any man was fo bold, he was to forfeit fuch afumof mmey , as Jhott'd he thought fit to be impofed on him , by thofe before whom he had his Trial i provided it was not lefs than five founds , nor more than fifty. Who (hould try him no body knew *, but he was fure to meet with little fa- vour , if the Directory- men met with him, and were to handle him; who would tolerate no Diffenters from them. And their reafon is given, ( in the Londcn Miniflers Letter to the Affembly ) becaufe they were bound by the Covenant to extirpate all Scifm\ and to in* detveur the Lord fouuld be one > and his Name one, in the Three Kingdoms, i. e. that all fhould fubferibe to the Directory. And there is another thing which to me feems fomething hard, ( I am lure you ought to judg it (o J v;z. an Ordinance of 2. Jane 1646. requiring , that all people who were come to rejide in the Parliament* Qutrttrs , fhmld talqe the National League and Covenant , and the AV gative O.thy mtwithftanding any Articles thai had been made by the Sou.'diery. Why fhould you zzo A Friendly Debate you complain of the late Oxford Aft ( as it is commonly called ) who could endure hereto- fore that men fliould be ufed fo feverely ? Compare that and this Ordinance together, and tell me which of them is molt moderate; that which banifhed men out of many Coun- ties, or that which only prohibits their near habitation to a Town or two? that which made void the promifes which their own Of- ficers had made , or that which was againit no engagements at all 1 1 wifh you would confider thefe things, with a great many more of like nature ; for 3 thongh your prejudices are (hong, I hope fometime they may ferve to convince you. And the mention of the Covenant, juft now brings a confiderable thing to my mind; which if it would not be tedious > I would wil- lingly propound, and deihe you to enquire a- bout it. N,C. I pray, fay on 5 for your difcourfe be- gins to be pleafant to me. C. I wifh you would ask your Minifters, why they themfelves heretofore not onely appro- ved of certain Ceremonies in the Worfhip^of God, butalfo were well pleafed they fhould be enjoyn'd ; and yet now cry out upon our Ceremonies, or, at leaft, would have them left at liberty, N. c. What Ceremonies and Worfhip do you mean ? C.Was between a Qonformifl y Sec. ill C. Was not the taking of the Solemn League and Covenant a piece of Reli- gion? N.C. Yes > it was an Oath, C. Read then an Ordinance of 2. Fehr m 1643.' and you will find it is ordain'd , among other things, that during the time that the Mini- fter read the whole Covenant to the peo- ple, the whole Congregation fiou'd be uncover" ed : There is one Ceremony, which now you will by no means indure fhould be impofed on you at the hearing of Sermons. Then, at the end of the Reading lt 9 they appoint that all fhdl take it fianding : There is another Ceremony. And, laftly, that they fhoM lift up their right hand bare : That's another, if not two Ceremonies more. For they enjoyti them to lift up the right Hand, not the left ; and that itfhould bzbare> not covered with a Glove. And this very Ordinance touching the Manner of the taking the Covenant, they defired might* be confirm'd by A& of Parlia- ment ; as you may fee in the Propofitions fent to his Majefty at Newcaftle* July 1 1. 1 646. Pray tell me, if you can, or t\it make enquiry, why they did not leave men to their way and manner of doing this Religious Aft 5 feeing they would have no body tied to a Pofture now in the Worfhip of God. N* C 4 I will enquire > For I know no reafon of it. C.I? in A Friendly Debate C. If you pleafe, ask them another thing; which is, why they do not take their own Advice which they give about the Covenant ? For if they would, the Covenant need not keep them from doing that, which otherwife many of them profefs they could do. ;V. C. You muft be at the pains to inter- pret your felf i for I know not what you in- tend. Cm The Parliament, in the Ordinance now mentioned, defire the Atfembly of Divines to prepare an Exhortation for the better taking of the Covenant, which fhould be read to- gether -with it. Now in that Exhortation ( which was voted to be printed, Febr. 9. 164^. ) the Aflfembly intreat the Epifcopal Clergy, ( who faid they could not take the Covenant, becaufe h was againft their for- mer Oaths ) to conlider this, which is the thing I would have them confider now ; That if any Oath be found*, into which any Minificr $r Qtlnrs have entrcd , not warranted by the Law of Gud and the Land , in this Cafe they muft teach themfthes and others*, ' that juch Oaths call far Repentance , not PcrlinAcy in thew. yV. C. I know what you are go : ng to in- fer. But they will not yield that this Cove- nant was unwarrantable by the Liws cf God and the Land, and therefore they wiil not re- pent of it* Ct It between a Qonformifl* & c. 225 C. It was plainly againft the Laws of the Land, and thofe reafonable and good Laws : from whence I conclude, it was againft the Laws of God. which would have us obey hu- mane Laws, ( that do not contradict them ) and not combine together to deftroy them. N.C. They will never grant, it was againll the Laws of the Land : and I think you cannot prove it. C. Did they not Covenant to endeavour to preferve the Reformed Religion in the Church of Scotland in Doctrine, Worfhip, Difcipline and Government ? N. C. Yes, its the fir ft Branch of the Cove- nant. C. And did they not next of all Covenant to indeavour to reform Religion in thefe King- doms of England and Ireland-, in all Points ac- cording to the Examples of the beft Reformed Churches ? . N.C. Yes. C. Then they were bound to reform us ac- cording to the Pattern of ScctLr.d .• For that Church muft needs be the beft Reformed, which needs no Reformation; as it feems the Church of Scotland did not, being tcbepre- ferved by them juft as it was. N.C. What of all this? C. Then I will prove they bound them- felves in an Oath againft the Laws of the Land, For our Laws make the King Supreme Gcvzr- 224 A Friendly Debate Gwemmr over all per font and in all c.mfes : Bur the Pr esbyterial Government as it was in Stctland j ( and was intended to be here ) though it allow the King to be Supreme Go- vernourover all perfons* (as they are his Sub- jects ) yet will not fubjecl all Cmfes to his Government ; becaufe Chrift according to the Discipline, is the only fpiritnil King and Govirnour over his Kirk. As much as to fay, they are iubjeft onely to Chrift in fome thing?. N. C. This is onely a Collection which you make from feveral things compared to- gether, in which you may be deceived. Sure they never intended to fet up fuch a Govern- ment here. C t Tim you may not be left therefore to my uncertain Reafonings (as you will efteem them,) in this particular 5 You may be fatisfied about the Mind of the-Affembly, if you be at all acquainted with the Hiftory of the late Times. By that I am informed, they intended to bring the fame Government among us that was in Scotland : And, Secondly, they thought the Parliament was obliged to fet it up by ver- tue of the Covenant. When thefe two things are proved, I believe you will be of my mind, that* they took an Oath againft the Laws, and therefore ought not to perfift in it, but repent of it, N. C 4 I between a Q>nformifl y &c. 225 JV. C* I fhall be glad to hear them proved C You muft know then that the Parlia- ment declared for Presbyterial Government, and pa/Ted molt of the particulars brought them from the Aflembly without any material alteration ; favmg the point of Commifficners ; as they tell us in a Declaration of April 17. 1646. N, C. What's the reafon it was not fee up ? C. Have patience, and I will tell you» Tbefe ugly Commijfioners flood in the way, which the Aflembly would not admit of > as the Parlia- ment would not admit of their Arbitrary Go- vernment,, N> C Why do you call it fo. C- The title of the Declaration tells you, that the intention of it is, among other things, to fecure the people againft all Arbi» trary Government, vU. in the Church , which they fpoke of before. But that you may be fure of it • they kt you know, when the/ come to that part of it, which concerns Church -Government , that the Presbytery challeng'd an Arbitrary Power y which they could not grant. The reafon was , becaufe they would have fet up ten thottfand Judica- tories within the Kingdom which fhould have had a fupreme Authority over us in many things. And this wat demanded in fttcb away ( as they proceed to tell us ) as is not conpflent with the Fundamental Lavgt and Government n6 A Friendly Debate of the fame y and by neceffary confequence excluding the Po>ver of the Parliament of England in the ex- erclfe of that Jurifditlion* This was the very caufe fas they farther inform us) why they had fettled no Government fince their fitting, becaufe they could not fubjetl themfelves and the People of the Land, to fo vaft a power as the Presbytery challenged ; which^ they tell us a little after, would have been for the Civil Ala- giftrate to part with fome of his Porter out of hit hands. Now before we go "any farther, I pray tell me, who was the fupreme Civil Magiftrate then, but the KING? And how will you excufe thefemen from going about to rob him of a part of his Power, and wreft it out of his hands ? TV. C Sure they did not Covenant to do this. C. We frail try that by and by. But that you may better know how they meant to go to work, and to over-rule the Supreme Power in many Ciufes 5 you muft underftand thefe things. That it being refolved by both Houfes, that all perfons guilty of notorious and fcandalous Offences fliould be fufpended from rhe Sacrament of the Lords Supper ; tie Aflembly likewife refolved, that thefe t.vo Powers lay in the Elderfbip or Presby- tery, and only in them. Fir ft, the Power of judging ami declaring what are fitch notorious and fcandalous offences, for which perfons guilty • there- between a Qonfomifi } 8cQ. % ij thereof are to he kfpt from the Lords Supper : And then, the power of converting before them, trying and actually fufpending from the Sacra- went of the Lords Supper, fuch (ffenders ac» cordingly. Whereupon the Commons defire to know what certain and particular Rules ex* prejfedinthe Word of God the Elder /hip or Pref- bytery h that they mil r ■■■; it impofe an interpretation he Covenant up- nth. her than they them- felves thinly to he fuitable to 'he jafl ends for winch it was' agreed* And withal, they defire the 'N ' Hkh . not to receive impnjjions of any forced Ccmftriiclhns of the Covenant , which in cafe ofdnyAoubt arijtng} they fay , is onelj to he exfotfn&ed h' th'.m y by whcfe Authority it IMS This doth plainly enough inform nv'tj -jiembly urged the Parliament to rary Government in purfu- CotfenairJ And if fo, theniheir Oath, hey rookie ) was contrary to the Laws of m* as their very Matters de- clare* and would force the fupreme Magistrates Power, between a (?onformiU y &c. 1 zp Power out of his hands, which is contrary to the Law of God : Acid therefore tlrey ought not any longer to hold themfelves bound by it 5 but rather fhould repent, as they advife o- thers to do in that cafe. To fum up the whole bufinefs. An Oath chat is not warrant- ed by the Laws of God and the Land ought to be repented of. Your Mini Iters took an Oath not warranted by the Laws of God and the Land, but contrary to them. There- fore they ought to repent of it. The for- mer Proportion, is rheir own. The latter is partly theirs, aud partly the Commons of England. For your Ministers expounded the Covenant as it obliged them to fet up the Presbytery in an abfolute Power » and the Commons declared the exercife of fuch a pow- er to be againft the Fundamental Laws of the Realm, and the Authority of the Su- preme Magistrate. ( lltught add, but that you little regard, that, His MAjESTTin his Proclamation declared it an unwarrantable Oath, Oflober $ m 1643.) And therefore do you and they fee, whether the Cofoclufion do not unavoidably follow, and make a good ufe of if, I befeech you before it be too lare. TV. C. As P.in! faid to 4%rippa, that he al* moft perfwaded him to be a Chrifli.m *, fo I mud fay to you, that you almoft perfwade rre to be a Csnfttmifty and come to Church. : 3 c.i 2jo A Friendly Debate C. I wifh, as S. Paul faid then, that you were not almcft, but altogether, fuchaslam. I mean, that you would not only come thither, but with fuch reverence and ferioufnefs as becomes the Service of God* But to come and (it, or loll, or look about, or whifper and talk, as many do, methinks is as bad as Haying away. Nay, it feemsto be far worfe* becaufe ic is a more publick Affront to God> even while we are in his prefence ; an open Scorn of his Wot (hip, and a Contempt of ali his people that devoutly joyn in it. There- fore, for the love of God, never involve your felt in this guilt , as I fee too many , even of the Great ones do ; who fhew not half fo rrnch Reverence before God in the time of D vine Service, as the people do before the rreaneft Jj'ilice of Peace, Nay, in his abfence, before h«s Country- Clerk. Ln/, lay not this Sin to their charge. And as I would defire you to pray with Reverence, foto hear the Sermon a!fo with due Artention, and without any Prejudice or Pafiion. Lay aiide all naughty and corrupt Arr'e&ions, which blind the Un- derstanding , and will not let it difcern the cleared Truth. Witnefs the Pbarifees, who con Id not fee the motl neccflary things con- cerning everlaftifig Salvation, though mani- festly delivered in Holy Scripture, and plainly proved by many iifuitnous Miracles : and all becaufe they were Covetous, Proud, Self-con- ceited, between a Qonformifi y &c. 23 1 ceited ) and loved the praife of men m.re than the praife of God* For what was more clearly let down in their Books than the time of Chrifis Coming -, together with the Cha- racters or Marks of his Perfon , when he fliouJd appear ? And what was more necef* fary to be known than him when he came a- mbng them ? t In what were they fo much con* cern'd every way, as to receive and acknow- ledge him? And yet, notwithftanding, they could not fee him, even when they faw him. They refiftedthe Holy Ghoft it fe.!f, in the Prophets both old and new. They could not endure fuch zChrift as taught them to be humble, and pure in Jheart, and heavenly-min- ded, and meek, and merciful, and peaceable, and patient under all injuries, and obedient to Government s and that would not oppofe Cafary and advance them to Power and Do- minion. From whence you fee how neceffa- ry it is to follow the Counfel of S. Peter^ x . Ep„ 2. 1 , ?. and laying afide all Malice 3 and all Guile % and all Hypocrifies , and Envies , and Evil* f peaking* ; as a nex>-lorn Babe defire the fincere Milk of the Wordy that you may grow there- by. Do not think I take too much upon me thus to inftruft you. I do but repeat what I have heard from fome of my Inftru- fters. And our Minifter told us the other day, that fome render the laft words thus ; Defire thertafenable (or rational) Milk*y tritlh Q^4 wt 2jz A Friendly Debate eat mixture; it being the fame expretfion, which is in Eom. 21.1. where we read of rear finable fir vice. Bat that I find is a thing few care tor : As little reafon as you pleafe will fuffice them. So their Fancies or their Affefti- ons be but tickled, they care not whether it be with Reafon or without. Any litilQ Toy takes them $ and if the Expofitjpn of Scrip- ture which is given them be but pretty, they never mind whether it be folidorno. Now this, 1 have been intruded, proceeds from a Vicious Affeftion ; from a lazy, flothful, dif- pofitionof mind j from a lotbnefs to be at any pains to undcrlland the Truth > nay, fomecimes from all evil Affections- > from a Jove c£ the Flefli snd Seniual things, and a too great ftrangenefs and averfnefs to all the Concerns of a Sju!. And allure your re is no ignorance fo black and dark as this, which proceeds from corrupt affe&i- n- . I hat which is the eflfc ft only cf Weak- nefs of Parts ; want of Opportunity, U\ E- .:on, or bad Inftruftlon, may find fome help, and be in great meaiure cured. A man n v.-v trcon natural parts, that bath an honeft Heart, may come to understand much. But this ihat I am fp . \ chofen a ul *hvcled, is in a manner incurable. Men love it and erje concerned to maintain it ; and will not underltand the fcleareft Reafons, but iliUt thei r eyes ags i aft . the m . And the refore if between a Qonformifl, &c. 2^ if you would profit by any Sermon, come with a free and unprejudiced mind , with an upright and true heart; and fo you may be convinced of your errors, or grow in wif- dom and undemanding , and, finally, think your felf as happy in our Company, as any where elk. N. C. You fpeak very reafonably and dif- creetly. But if I ftiJl remain unfatisfied, I hope you will love me, as one Neighbour fhould do another. C. Make no doubt of it. And the greateft aft of Charity I can exprefs to you is, to ad- v\(t you how you fhould behave your felves while you continue codiflent from us. You were wont in the beginning of thefe Diffe- rences, to call your felves the weak^Brethren y This was the Language of your Fore- fathers, who begg'd that they might be forborn, and treated gently, and, like the tender Children of Jxceb, driven no falter, than they were able to go. But now none drive fo furioufly, as you. Nothing will ferve your turn but to be the foremoft, I mean, the Leaders of all : You would be Maflers of the Law; you would Rule and Govern, as if you were the wifeft and ftrongeft Chriltians, nay, illuminated with a mote fingular degree of Knowledge, than any body eife. h doth not fuffice you to let alone what is enjoynM you, but you arreign it before all your Neighbour; ; you judge j j4 * Friendly Debate judge and condemn it ; nay, you thwart and oppofe it ; you would fain do Execution upon ir, and having pull'd it down, fet up your own Fancies in the room. And fofar hath this Confidence carried you, that you would fain fet up your Fancies in all the World, if you were able. For you know very well where you invited all Reformed Churches, and that in a way of Prayer, that they would affociate themfelves with you in your, or the like Covenant. I muttdefire you therefore, as you love your own and the Kingdom's Peace, to have a lower opinion of your felves and Gifts • and fo to abate of your Confi- dence, and your Forwardnefs and violence to impofe upon others. Set not fo high an efteem upon your own Models and Draughts of Government. Be content to obey, rather than rule. Let nothing of Pride, Ambition, Vain-glory, and love of popular Efteem, bear (way in your hearts. And oh that we could fee all thefe evil fpirits caft out by your Prayers and Fa-ftings ! Approve your felves to be Tender- confeienced, by your tender care in all your a&ions to be void of effence to God and Man. Shew that nothing in the work! but your fear ro difpleafe God keeps you from us, by your humble carriage* by your fpeaking well of all, as near as you can » by faying nothing againft the eftablifh'd Re- ligion ; by honouring your Superiours ; by meet- hetmen a Qonformiflficc. 23$; meeting very fecretly, (if you muft needs af- femblc in greater Companies, than the Law allows) that fo you may not give a publick Offence. And I befeech you never meet in time of Divine Service- Pray your Minifters to fearchand examine, as much as they can, whether none of their Auditors come to them only out of humor and love of Novel- ty ; and that they would exhort all that can, to go to the publick Ordinances. For which end let them acknowledge in plain terms, that the Worfhip of God among us is lawful, and far from being Anti-chriftian ; that there are many godly men among us ; that they them- felves have received benefit from their La- bours. Let them exprefs their forrow, that they are not enlightned enough to fee the lawfulnefs of ufing fome Ceremonies 5 and defire the people not to follow their Example without their Reafons. Speak well of your Governours, and reprove thofe that do not. Believe not Rumors and Reports, and take care you be not thefpreaders of them. Keep a day of Humiliation for this Sin among others, that you have been the Authors or Abettors of fo many falfe and fcandalous Stories con- cerning the Bfliops and others. And do not excufe your felves by faying that fome Stories are true > for I can demonftrate, if need be, that it is not the manner of your people to ex- amine carefully whether things be true or no, before 2}6 A Friendly Debate before they divulge them, but presently they run away when they have got a Tale by the end, and carry it about the Town. By which means, right Reverend perfons ( which is a horrid fliame ) have been openly charg'd in publick Affemblies with things notorioufly falfe, without any ground at all, All which proceeds from your unmodified Padions of -4nger, Hatred, and Uncharitablenefs ; which make you nattily believe any thing that's bad of thofe you do not like. Let thefe things therefore be bewailed and reformed : As alfo yourwrefting of the Scripture, and bold, but vain, pretences to the Spirit; in which, I be- feech you, hereafter fhew greater Modefty. It would do well alfo, if you thought upon all the Contempt which hath been poured by you, or by your means, not only upon the B.ihops, but their Order and Fun&ion > and confequemly upon all the Ancient Churches, whofiourifaed fo happily under that Govern- ment : upon all the prefentMiniftery alfo, for whom no name could be found bad enough: nay, and more than this, upon all Civil Go- yernours, for whom there is fcarce left any fuch thing, as Honour and Reverence, An& now I fpealc of them, let me again intreatyou no: to oppofe their Commands, 'if you can- not obey them 5 bat only let them alone, and forbear to do them. A?A let this For- bearance, be with much Modefty, Humility, Silence, between a Conformifl, Sec. 237 Silence and apparent trouble, that you can- not comply with the publick Orders* Intreat the Forbearance alfo of your Governours with much Submiflion. Live peaceably with your Brethren* Let as few as may be obferve your diflfent. Labour to hide and cover it, as ifureyou would do, if you thought it a weak- nefs. Do not feek to make or keep a Party. Endeavour not to draw more company to your meetings. Let not thofe be flattered who are wont to come there, as if they wtvzChrifts Jem! f y the Garden of God* intimating that others are but the Pebbles in the common, or the High-ways. Suffer them not to believe that they are the little flocks : or to fancy them- felves under Perfection ; and that they are bearing mtnefs and teflimony to Jefm* And be fure to difown thofe who abufe the people with fuch tales as thefe , that the Go/pel is in a manner gone, and God departed from the Nation s onely he hath left them behind as his Agents and Atnhajf adorns , whom you muft keepasa pledge of his Return : Forifhecall them home, then he is quite gone* Thefe are the fubtile devices to keep up the Faction, and bring back our former troubles, which they call Gods return to the Nation. Thefe are the crafty Arts whereby they ingage the hearts of the people to them ("being Gods Agents) and draw them from their Governors* Thefe are the Mountebank-tricks, whereby poor I fouls 238 A Friendly Debate fouls are made to believe, that all but they are Phyficiansof no value* and that healing mud come by their means. Let not your Soul come into their Secrets ; be you not united unto their Ajfembly : But heartily acknowledge that we are ftill God's people, and that he is among us. This is the way to be approved of God, and to win favour alfo in the eyes of men ; who will then be convinced you have tender Confciences in thofe matters wherein we dif- fer, when you are exactly confeientious in all other things* But if your Confciences be fo brawny as ro be infenfible of thofe fpiritual Wickedneffes now mentioned, you mult blame yourfelves, if your Governours befevere to- wards you. N. C. That which you propofe, I muft con- fers, feems very reafonable. But / pray, where did you learn all thefe things ? C, There, where you may learn a great deal more of your Duty, than/ believe you have heard in other places s even at our own Pa- rifh Church : Where we are not flattered prefently into a conceit of our Saint- fhip, nor hear perhaps every day of the priviledges of the Saints* but we are taught how to be Saints, and how to live like good Christians, and to value this as a lingular priviledge, that we have the Gofpel fo plainly expounded to us> as to fee how Blrjfed they fire^ i\ho mt only hear the Word of God, but alfo keep it, N. C. Truly between a Qonformift* Sec. 239 N. C. Truly, Neighbour as long as you live well, / fliall alway defire to maintain a Famili- arity with you, though you be not of my mind • believing that you are aChriftian, though of another way. And / hope you will do the like with me. C. /affured you of it before. But let me en- ter this provifo, that you talk no more about matters of Religion * for unlefs you be changed by this Difcourfe, we difagrce fo much, that it will be irkfome to us both. N* C # Not fo » for / have learnt fomething of you 5 and if I can teach you nothing, yet / may learn more. Therefore / pray let us not ceafe to talk of the beft things. What ? would you have us converfe together as meer Hea- thens ? C. No. It you will confult how we may do moll good in the Parifh wherein we live, and be a means of our Neighbours Benefit and Comfort J / (hall be right glad of it. But todifpute / fee is bootlefs ; and fo far from doing good to moft, that it, rather doth them harm. N. C, Why did you enter into a Difpute with me? C. There are here and there fome well minded, honeft hearts, who have left one Ear open to hear the contrary party, and are refolved to weigh all things without preju- dice. With fuch there is fome pleafure and profit 240 A Friendly Debate, &c, profit to reafon .• and I took you for one of that ibmp. If I was deceived) pray pardon me this attempt, and I (hall not trouble you fo again;. N.C. I hope I fhailnot deceive you; fori intend to confider thefe things better when I am alone 5 and fobid you farewell. C* I pray God be with you. FINIS. / / ' /In ^ *-*t-