>-7 PRINCETON, N. J. V, Presented by Mr. Samuel Agnew of Philadelphia, Pa. BV 133 .G74 1833 Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons. Select The report of the Select n /^rr»rr> -i + - 4- j-v ^ ri^-£ tii_£i LL/TiL: /-vrP QhJi'^ ^-iMju^ • , sj A.=\i^ fit^^^.,e-^ THE REPORT SELECT COMMITTEE o/^Ae HOUSE o/' COMMONS ON THE ®6$etftance of tfie llotti^jS=i!5at ; WITH THIS SUBSTANCE OF THE EVIDENCE. LONDON: PlilNTEB BY ELLERTON AND HENDERSON, GOUGH SQUARE, FLEET STREET, jTor f^e Soefets tor promoting f^t ttw ©bserbancc of Itie HotU's^ISas ; AND SOLD AT THE society's office, EXETER HALL ; AND BY MESSRS. RIVINGTON, ST. PAULS CHURCHYARD & WATERLOO PLACE ; SEELEY, FLEET STREET j HATCHARD, PICCADILLY3 AND NISBET, BERNERS STREET, 1833. Tuesday, the 3d day of July, 1832. Ordered, — That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Laws and Practices relating to the Observance of the Lord's-day, and to report their Observations thereupon to The House : — And a Committee is appointed of Sir Andrew Agnew. Sir Thomas Baring. Mr. Fowell Buxton. Mr. George Lamb. Sir Robert Peel. Mr. Briscoe. Mr. Evans (of Leicester). Lord Ashly. Mr. Stanley. Mr. Goulbourn. Sir Robert Inglis. Mr. Littleton, Mr. Andrew Johnston. Mr. Serjeant Lefroy. Mr. Alderman Hughes Hughes. Mr. Alderman Venables. Mr. Mackinnon. Sir George Murray. Lord Viscount Morpeth. Mr. Pringle. Mr. Sinclair. Mr. J. E. Gordon. Mr. Charles Calvert. Mr. George Byng. Mr. Sadler. Lord Viscount Sandon. Mr. Alderman Thompson. Mr. Ruthven. Mr. Wyse. .r.LC. ivOV : HSOIiOGiOA. CONTENTS OF THIS VOLUIV The REPORT of the Select Committee 16 pages. E\'IDENCE No. I.— of the Lord Bishop of London and Dr. Farre 20 No. II. — of Magistrates, Superintendants of Police, and Parochial Authorities 96 No. III. — respecting Shopkeepers and other Traders, and the Public Markets 56 No. IV. — in reference to Road Travelling and Traffic on Canals 23 No. V. — in reference to Steam Boats 32 No. VI. — (Prisons) 8 No. VIL— Evidence of Rev. J. E. Tyler, Rev. J. W. Cunningham, Rev. Dr. Barrett, and John Twells, Esq 32 No. VIII, — respecting Scotland 56 THEOL, R E P O R t"^-"^"' FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE oftlie HOUSE o/COMMONS ON THE Ordered by the House of Commons to be i)rmted August 6, 1832. Y' "OUR COMMITTEE have had prepared an abstract of the Statutes relating to the Observance of the Lord's-day, from which it appears that by the existing laws, and particularly by the 1 Car. 1, c. 1, and the 21 Geo. 3, c. 49, certain restrictions are imposed upon meetings, assemblies/ or concourses of people upon the Lord's-day: That by the 3 Car. 1 , c. 2, Carriers, Waggon-men, Car- men, Wain-men, and Drovers are prohibited from traveUing on that day : And that by the 29 Car. 2, c. 7, all persons are prohibited from doing or exercising any worldly labour, business, or work of their ordinary callings, on the Lord's- day, works of necessity and charity only excepted. Pe- nalties are also imposed upon persons using, employing, or travelling with Boats, Wherries, Lighters, or Barges, except upon extraordinary occasions, to be allowed by a Justice of Peace or head officer. But the dressing or selling of meat in Inns, Cook-shops, or Victualling-houses, for such as otherwise cannot be provided for, and the crying and selling of Milk and Mackerel between certain hours, are excepted from these prohibitory enactments. By some recent Statutes particular directions are given with respect to Bakers following their business during certain hours. The attention of the House is requested to the whole of the Abstract above referred to, as set forth in the Appendix. 2. Your Committee, with a view to ascertain how far the " practices " are in accordance with the letter and spirit of the Statute Book, have gone into evidence of considerable length. As regards England, it has been chiefly confined to the Metropolis and its immediate neighbourhood, the -^ COMMONS REPORT ON THE late period of the session at which they were appointed precluding the possibihty of doing justice to a more ex- tended inquiry. Three gentlemen from Scotland, who had previously given much attention to the question, have been very fully examined ; but it has been found impossible to enter into the inquiry at all, as respected Ireland. 3. Your Committee regret to be under the necessity of stating that the evidence which has been submitted to them exhibits a systematic and widely-spread violation of the Lord's-day, which, in their judgment, cannot fail to be highly injurious to the best interests of the people, and which is calculated to bring down upon the country the Divine displeasure. 4. It appears that trading prevails to a great extent in various districts on Sunday morning, and that such a com- mencement of the Sabbath tends very much to its general desecration throughout the rest of the day. The state of some of these places is described as" more like a fair than a market;" so that the neighbourhood is quiet upon any other day of the week compared with the Sunday. The people who frequent these shops and markets are chiefly the improvident, who, generally speaking, might have made their marketing to greater advantage on Saturday evening. Any adequate idea of the great extent of this mischief, and the manifold evils resulting from it, can only be attained from a perusal of the whole evidence which has been laid before the Committee. 5. A popular opinion prevails that the Sunday Marketing is unavoidable, in consequence of the labourer being paid at a very late hour on Saturday night, or on Sunday morn- ing. It would appear that this excuse does not now exist to so great an extent as formerly ; but a greater evil has taken its place, and leads to the same result. With or without the knowledge of master tradesmen, it frequently happens that their foremen or clerks pay the workmen at public-houses, where, as a matter of patronage, are esta- blished Pay-tables. There the men are appointed to meet, and by the time they have drunk '* for the good of the house," it being considered necessary to drink something, the money is produced by the clerk, or in some instances by the Publican himself; and, the score for the week's tippling being deducted, the remnant is put into the pocket of the man. Continuing to drink, as is but too frequent, he is taken to the Police Station-house. His wife follows. OBSERVANCE OF TH E LORD S-DAY, J and late in the morning discovers, by the entries in the Pohce books, that his week's earnings are reduced to a few shillings. Then her Sunday morning's market- ing commences. Even the wives (with their children), when looking after their husbands at public-houses, are frequently found to yield to the temptations which these places present ; and thus whole families become victims to this baneful system. It is clearly established, by the unvarying testimony of many witnesses, that such cases are of frequent occurrence. 6. Your Committee conceive that the time of paying wages might be limited by Legislative enactment to the hour of six in the afternoon of Saturday, or even to an earlier hour, without any material inconvenience to mas- ters, and very greatly to the advantage of journeymen and labourers of all classes ; and even if this should be deemed objectionable, your Committee have no doubt that the abo- lition of Sunday Markets, and the necessity which would thence arise to the labouring class of making their pur- chases on Saturday night, would have the effect of com- pelling masters to pay them at an earlier hour. Your Committee have it in evidence that the plan of paying wages on Friday has been adopted by some employers with decided success : and it must be obvious to the House, that when a working instead of a leisure day succeeds the receipt of wages, the workman encounters fewer temp- tations to dissipate his earnings at the gin-shop, -instead of employing them in the purchase of necessaries for his fa- mily. If gentlemen manufacturers, master tradesmen, and farmers, were aware of the benefits which must result to the labouring class from paying their wages on an earlier day than Saturday, especially if that day precede a market-day, your Committee entertain no doubt that feel- ings of kindness as well as duty would soon cause the prac- tice to become general. 7. Your Committee here beg to remark, that all the witnesses concur in the opinion, that if Sunday Markets were abolished, and the whole of the community were thus under the necessity of laying in their provisions on Saturday, they would be better and more cheaply supplied on that day than on Sunday. They found this opinion on the important fact, that a higher price is paid for commo- dities purchased on the Sunday, and that they are also ge- nerally of inferior quality. A 2 COMMONS REPORT ON THE 8. As the Law now stands, more especially since the passing of the Act 9 Geo. 4, c. 61, which gives the Magis- tracy no power of fixing the hours at which public-houses shall be closed, they have become greatly conducive to the purposes of vice and disorder. The Police cannot prevent the drunken party of Saturday night from being kept within doors, if they avoid actual riot. They may con- tinue to drink until the hour of Divine Worship on Sunday, when they are turned into the street in the most disgusting state, to the great annoyance of the inhabitants passing to church ; and in some districts to such a height has this nuisance arrived, that fathers and husbands are deterred from taking their families to places of worship. 9. Eating-houses, also, and CofFee-shops of the inferior sort, are at present, according to the evidence, houses of refuge, where the worst characters of both sexes elude the vigilance of the Police. With respect to Beer-shops, one general opinion prevails, namely, that, as at present constituted, on the Sunday, as well as every other day of the week, they are carrying on the work of demoralization to a fearful extent throughout the country. 10. Your Committee desire likewise to remark, as to Places of Pubhc Resort on the Lord's-day, that many of them, whether from the imperfect state of the law or the laxity of its application, are the haunts where profligate persons set the watchfulness of the Police at defiance, and where the young and unwary are allured by many entice- ments to intoxication, with all its train of evils. By such abuses, places of this description, instead of being properly used for purposes of health and recreation, frequently tend to destroy what is most valuable to a nation, the moral character of its people. 11. Before leaving this subject, your Committee would call your attention to the case of the Bakers, a body who consider themselves peculiarly aggrieved. From the labo- rious nature of their business, the journeymen bakers, con- sisting of many thousands in the metropolis and its vicinity, and of whom 7,000 have petitioned the House, work from 14 to 16 hours per day during the week, and by custom, which the Law has sanctioned, nine hours of labour on every Sunday are required of them. They suffer greatly in health from this continued round of toil, and it is nearly impossible for them to attend any place of worship on the Sabbath-day. The popular belief, strengthened by a high OBSERVANCE OF THE LORD S-DAY. 5 legal authority, is, that the mass of the community are tliereby enabled to attend Divine Service. The bakers vehemently deny that such is the result, declaring that the mass of the middle classes do not avail themselves of the baker's oven, and that the portion of the poorer people who take this accommodation are not persons in the habit of frequenting places of public worship. It is not therefore to be wondered at that the bakers are most desirous of ob- taining the Sunday as a day of rest ; and your Committee deem their peculiar case to be eminently deserving of the consideration of the Legislature. 12. From the evidence of the Bakers, there is reason to believe that the middling classes generally, when attending Divine Worship themselves, leave some servant at home to take care of the house. The closing, therefore, of the bakers' ovens, if it compelled some persons to cook at home, would not prevent more of their household from going to church than are necessarily prevented at present. 13. Your Committee admit that some inconvenience might arise at first to those families of the lower orders who have hitherto availed themselves of those ovens to procure a better dinner on Sunday than on the week days ; but your Committee conceive that no sound principle of politics or religion can justify the law in refusing to pro- tect one class of society against being compelled to sacrifice comfort, health, religious privileges, and conscience, for the convenience or enjoyment of any other class. In re- ference to the sacrifice of health of which this trade com- plains, it may be observed, that a Witness, an acute and experienced medical gentleman, speaking generally of the effect, affirms that, from the constitution of the human frame, the absence (of the periodical relaxation afforded by the weekly Sabbath) of it brings on necessarily pre- mature decay and death. 14. In a few of the worst parts of the town, Shops of various descriptions are kept open throughout the whole of the Sabbath-day ; and at the West-end of the town, espe- cially in the neighbourhood of the wealthier classes, some shops, such as Fishmongers and Poulterers, although with closed doors, do much business, and until a late hour in the evening, in supplying articles for Sunday dinners to the rich. This is a practice which tends much to the discomfort and to the demoralizing of such persons, their journeymen, apprentices, and servants. The tradesmen 6 COMMONS REPORT ON THE ihemselves, as well as their dependants, are most desirous of a day of rest ; they wish that their customers might be withheld by law from making actual purchases on the Sabbath-day ; at the same time that some of the Fish- mongers, from the perishable nature of their articles, think it might be expedient to allow the delivery of their Goods (previously ordered) until eight or nine o'clock on Sunday morning. But your Committee cannot concur in this opinion. The ground upon which it is urged (viz. that the houses of the rich are unprovided with the means of duly preserving fish during the night) appears utterly inadequate to justify a practice so equivocal ; on the con- trary, feeling the difficulty, if not the practical impos- sibility, of distinguishing between the Sabbath-day's sale and delivery, on the one hand, and on the other, the de- livery on the Sabbath-day of fish alleged to have been bought on the Saturday ; and observing that the indulgence which would thus primd facie infringe on the character of the Lord's-day, is recommended as a relief, not for the great mass of the community in respect to articles of necessity, but as a mere accommodation for the rich in respect to arti- cles of luxury ; they cannot but urge upon the consideration of the House the expediency of preventing the opening of all Fishmongers' shops from 12 o'clock on Saturday night to Monday morning. The same principle applies still more strongly to the supply of Poultry, and of other ar- ticles of a nature less perishable than fish. Your Committee have it moreover in evidence, that all attempts in other instances to stop Sunday trafficking at any given hour have hitherto proved altogether fruitless. In reference to the supply both of fish and poultry to the tables of the rich, it has been stated in evidence to your Committee, that generally a better article would be provided by the order being given to the fishmonger on the Saturday, instead of the Sunday morning. 15. In reference to the foregoing matters, your Com- mittee are clearly of opinion that the existing Laws should be amended ; and in offering this opinion, they are not only advocating the best interests of the labouring classes, but giving due weight to the loud complaints of a large body of tradesmen, of different descriptions, who claim from the Law protection in regard to their personal com- forts, and who feel that they are entitled to be exempted from that loss in their pecuniary interests which they must OBSERVANCE OF THE LORd's-DAY. 7 now suffer if they yield to the existing law, and to their own consciences, that obedience which their less scrupulous neighbours refuse to render. In this sentiment, as to the necessity of" Legislative interference, your Committee are confirmed by the unanimous testimony which the Magis- trates, Clergy, respectable Inhabitants, and Police whom they have examined, bear to the dreadful and increasing evils which flow from Marketing, Trading, and the abuse of Public-houses on Sunday, whether as repects the tem- poral condition or the moral or religious habits of the lower and middling classes. ]G. Upon these grounds, your Committee do not sug- gest to the House any new principle of Law, but only recommend that the present enactments against Sunday Marketing and against the improper use of Houses of Public Entertainment should be rendered operative, by increasing the penalties, which, owing to the change in the value of money, are now nearly nominal, by augmenting them upon each successive offence, and also by facilitating the recovery of them. 17. To satisfy the House of the total inefficiency of the existing penalties against buying and selling, it is only necessary to refer to the testimony of the several Magis- trates whom your Committee have examined. Some Sunday traders have been known " openly to mock at them," and have even offered to pay them six months in advance, to save the trouble of informations ; boasting that their gains were so great on Sunday mornings that they could well afford to pay 5s. out of them. 18. With regard to the difficulty of recovering the pe- nalties under the provisions of the existing Laws, your Committee beg to refer to the evidence of several Justices, and especially to that of Mr. Chambers, Magistrate of Union Hall. 19. As a remedy for the evils connected with Public- houses, the witnesses concur in thinking that they should be closed from 11 or 12 o'clock on Saturday night until after the hours of Morning Worship on Sunday. Most of the witnesses are of opinion, that no tipphng of spirits or beer on the premises should be allowed throughout the Sabbath ; but that the Shops should only be open for the sale of beer for the use of private families, and at proper hours. 20. Your Committee have likewise gone into Evidence, 8 COMMONS REPORT ON THE thougb, for the reason before assigned, not so fully as could have been wished, on the subject of Sunday Travel- ling, which it is well known prevails, to a great extent, throughout the whole country. It is stated that the Coach Passengers coming to London on the Sabbath-day are mainly attracted by the great Monday Markets of the Metropolis. But there are, undoubtedly, vast numbers of other travellers who have no such reason for thus violating the rest of the Sabbath. It will appear from the evidence, that by transferring Smithfield and other Markets from Monday to Tuesday, a great part of the evil might be abated within a circle of 120 miles around London. In the wish to promote so desirable an object the chief Coach Proprietors, together with Salesmen of great respectability, and others connected with Smithfield Market, concur. It is in evidence that this market is crowded on Monday morning, very inconveniently to the buyers and sellers, and not less injuriously to the cattle ; and that the Friday's market is so much less abundantly supplied ; that if the other market was held on Tuesday, instead of Monday, the proportions of the supply would be better adjusted. Nor does it appear that any evil would result to any class of society from the change of the day ; — certainly none that can for a moment be placed in competition with the unquestioned mischiefs which the Sunday preparations for the Monday market, more especially the harbouring and driving of large masses of cattle in the negihbourhood of London on the Lord's-day, unavoidably cause. 21. It will likewise appear from the evidence, that from the great concourse of passengers in Steam Packets, much demoralization is produced by the crowds of strangers arriving at Gravesend and Richmond upon the Sundays, together with innumerable public and private carriages at the latter place. Several respectable tradesmen have described the state of Richmond ; and the Curate declares, that the evil produced by the " foreign influence " over- powers all attempts of the Parochial Ministers to bring about a better state of things. Your Committee are happy to observe, that, through the influence of conscientious and influential individuals, the Steam communication with Margate on the Lord's-day has, in a great measure, been put a stop to. It appears in evidence, that Barges carrying- merchandize pass up the Thames in greater numbers on Sunday than on any other day of the week. OBSERVANCE OF THE LORD's-DAY. 9 22. On the subject of Sunday Trading, which has chiefly occupied tlie inquiries of your Committee, it will be seen in evidence, that humble individuals frequently justify their own conduct in that respect by referring to the practices of the Great. And, in like manner, with regard to Sunday Travelling, such scenes as those on the road to Newmarket, which are described in the evidence of the Lord Bishop of London, exhibit a very dangerous example to all classes of society. 23. In recommending a general revision and amendment of the Laws for the Observance of the Sabbath, it should be observed, that Sunday labour is generally looked upon as a degradation ; and it appears in evidence, that in each trade, in proportion to its disregard of the Lord's-day, is the immorality of those engaged in it. 24. The Workmen are aware, and the Masters in many trades admit the fact, that were the Sunday labour to cease, it would occasion no diminution of the weekly wages. 25. The Divine institution of the Sabbath having been repeatedly recognised by the Statutes for the Observation of the Lord's-day, the seventh day of rest may justly be deemed a right of the subject: and as such it is considered by a large portion of the trading and working classes, who claim Legislative protection ; as may be seen by the Petitions from London, London and Westminster, St. Anne's Westminster, Southwark, Lambeth, Holborn, Chelsea, Islington, Camden, and Camberwell, and from the Tradesmen of Goswell-street, Hoxton, and the City Road ; from a large body of Bakers ; likewise from the Fishmongers and Poulterers of the Metropolis; from several places throughout the kingdom ; and from Ireland. 26. On another important subject connected with the due observance of the Lord's-day, your Committee feel that a Legislative measure is necessary. By the Act 20 Geo. 1, all Corporation Elections which by previous law or custom ought to be held on a day which in any given year may happen to be Sunday, are rendered valid, if done on the next following Monday ; but the same regard to the sanctity of the Lord's-day is not as yet secured by any legislative provision in respect to public meetings, which by Local Acts ought to be held on a given day, when that day shall fall on a Sunday. 27. Your Committee have approached the subject com- 10 COMMONS REPORT ON THE mitted to their investigation impressed with a deep sense not only of its importance, but also of the difficulties which are generally supposed to attend it. The weight of the evidence presented to them has nevertheless led them to concur in recommending an amendment of the law as both indispensable and practicable. The letter, no less than the spirit of English Legislation, since the Reforma- tion, in relation to the observance of the Lord's-day, has uniformly been directed against all desecrations of it by the exercise of any worldly labour, business, or '* ordinary calhng " on that day, as will be seen by referring to the Abstract of the Laws contained in the Appendix : but whilst the tenor of the law has been favourable to the mainte- nance of this most important institution of the Christian Religion, the more or less decorous observance of which may be considered, at any given time, to afford the safest test of the greater or less degree of moral and religious feeling pervading the community, it is much to be deplored that, owing in a great measure to the difficulties attend- ing a due enforcement of its provisions, the absence of adequate penalties, and the defective mode prescribed for recovering them, but owing still more to the lax spirit of the age in reference to Religious Obligation, the law itself is found to be practically insufficient to secure the objects for which it professes to provide. 28. Your Committee, however, whilst thus recommend- ing an emendation of the Law, as necessary to put down gross desecrations of the Lord's-day, and to enable all classes to avail themselves of its privileges, avow that, in anticipating an improved observance of it as the result of more efficient laws, they rely chiefly on the moral support which these would receive, as well from the highest au- thorities of the Church, its Clergy, and Ministers of all denominations,as from the example of the Upper Classes, the Magistracy, and all respectable heads of families, and, it may be added, from the increasing conviction of all classes, derived from experience, of the value of the day of rest to themselves. 29. The express commandment of the Almighty affords the plain and undoubted rule for man's obedience in this as in all other things ; and the only question therefore is, in what particular cases should the sanctions and penalties of human laws be added to further and enforce this obedi- ence to the Divine commandment; a question which should ORSEKVANCE OF THE LORd's-DAY. U be approached with much seriousness of mind, when the obhgations of Legislators to promote, by all suitable means, the glory of God, and the happiness of those committed to their charge, is duly weighed. 30. The objects to be attained by Legislation may be considered to be, first, a solemn and decent outward ob- servance of the Lord's-day, as that portion of the week which is set apart by Divine command for public worship; and next, the securing to every member of the community without any exception, and however low his station, the uninterrupted enjoyment of that day of rest which has been in mercy provided for him, and the privilege of em- ploying it, as well in the sacred exercises for which it was ordained, as in the bodily relaxation which is necessary for his well-being, and which, though a secondary end, is nevertheless also of high importance. As to the Laics and Practices relating to the Lord's-da^ in Scotland. 31. It appears from the evidence, that, immediately after the Reformation, various laws, both of the Church and State, were framed for the purpose of securing the strict Observance of the Sabbath-day. OfTenders, besides incurring Ecclesiastical Censures, were liable to pecuniary penalties, varying according to their condition in life, and to the magnitude and aggravation of the transgressions. And it appears to be sufficiently established, that for a long period the Laws were very strictly administered; and that, in conjunction with the advancement of religious knowledge, the strict observance of the Sabbath proved the means of formino^ and cherishinsf those devout habits to which have been traced the characteristic prudence, in- dustry, and general correctness of morals long prevalent among that people. It is now, however, too well attested, that a very serious change for the worse has for a consi- derable time been in progress, particularly in all the most populous districts. Among the outrages against public decorum and private tranquillity, the following have been brought into view : Fishing, particularly salmon fishing ; driving of sheep and cattle to markets ; unnecessary travel- ling for amusement or business ; several kinds of mecha- nical labour ; superintendence of machinery in some ma- nufactories; plying of steam-boats; the operation of print- 12 COMMONS REPORT ON THE ing; the sale of provisions and other commodities in shops ; and above all, the keeping open of public-houses, at which crowds of idle and disorderly persons assemble, not only wasting the wages of their labour, but committing many immoralities and breaches of the peace, most offensive and injurious to their neighbours, and ultimately destruc- tive to themselves. 32. Much as these evils have been complained of, they do not seem in general to have proceeded to the same glaring excess as in England. Their progress, though described as having been of late fearfully rapid, has been in some measure checked by the influence of religious education and the force of good example. One of the most important circumstances which till lately distin- guished the Sabbath in Scotland was, that the entire day was generally regarded as equally sacred. The distinction between " church hours " and the other hours of the day seems not to have been made, except perhaps in country towns and villages, where during the interval of public worship, or after the close of the service, refreshments might be obtained by persons coming from a distance to the church. The old laws of Scotland therefore apply to the whole of the Sabbath, though it was held to be an aggravation of any offence that it was committed during the hours of public worship. If the prohibition of drink- ing in taverns be limited to the hours of Divine Service, the good which can be thus expected to be done must be very limited ; for the most numerous excesses appear, from the evidence, to occur most frequently between Saturday night and the next morning, and again on the evening of the Sabbath. The wording of the new Act for regulating Licences in Scotland (9 Geo. 4, c. 68) seems to have given rise to an impression that public-houses may legally be kept open at all hours of the Sabbath except those of Divine Service. But in fact this Act left all former Sta- tutes as it found them, with this innovation only, that it imposed an additional penalty for keeping public-houses open during " church hours." The introduction of this new phraseology, however, has greatly embarrassed Ma- gistrates in the discharge of their duty, and thereby led them to overlook many disorders. 33. It has appeared from the evidence that great mischief has arisen from the indiscriminate readiness of Magistrates in many cases to grant Licences for the sale of Exciseable OBSERVANCE OF THE LORD's-DAY. 13 Liquors, the consequence of which has been that, in most parishes, opportunities and temptations to indulge in drink- ing are presented at almost every twentieth door, and in some even more frequently. This very circumstance adds greatly to the difficulty of exercising a vigilant inspection over the excesses which occur. It appears also to be a source of much inconvenience, that in Scotland a person cannot follow the business of a Grocer without having a spirit licence, many of the most irregular tippling-houses being also grocers' shops. Among the evils most com- plained of is the insufficient accommodation in churches provided for the inhabitants in many places, and the ac- companying impracticability of exercising a beneficial su- perintendence over the morals of the overgrown popula- tion. In large cities and towns, like Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Dundee, Paisley, and Greenock, parishes contain often from 7,000 to 70,000 or 80,000 inhabitants, with seldom more than one incumbent. Hence, even when ac- commodation is, to a considerable extent, provided in Chapels and Meeting-houses of various denominations, a great many of the people, belonging to no congregation , are not practically subject to any efficient controul or in- spection ; and thus many sources of disorder are suffered, without interruption, to extend their influence. An evil of not inferior magnitude has been alleged to spring from the inadequate provision made in such populous places for the Education of the lower orders. 34. As the penalties attached to several of the Scotch Statutes have, in process of time, become insignificant, it has been represented by one of thfe witnesses that it would be of importance to make them conformable to the present value of money. Another witness suggests that, for correcting disorders in Taverns, much greater efficacy might be expected from the Forfeiture of Licence than from pecuniary fines. A revision of the Act 9 Geo. 4, c. 58, for the purpose of extending the penalty to the whole day, has been strongly urged, as well as a revision of the Act for lowering the Duty on Spirits. 35. Your Committee, on a full consideration of the evidence relating to Scotland, are firmly convinced that there likewise the most zealous efforts of the Ecclesiastical Authorities and of Religious Associations must be compa- ratively inefficacious, unless they are supported by the Civil Authority, and it must surely be the duty of Parliament to 14 COMMONS REPORT ON THE consider seriously what means are most likely to prove efficient in arresting , the progress of that fatal habit which has of late years been rapidly multiplying the sources of poverty, disease, and crime, thus deteriorating and degrad- ing the character of the population, aggravating, in many parts of the country, the evils of an oppressive poor's rate, and weakening the resources of the empire. 36. Your Committee beg the House distinctly to under- stand that they are very far from wishing that the Legis- lature should revert to the principle of the 14th Section of the Act 1st, and the 5th Section of the Act 23d of Queen Elizabeth, whereby " Forbearing to repair to church, chapel, or place of common prayer," subjected the in- dividual to heavy penalties. On the contrary, they are full impressed with the truth of the remark given in evi- dence by the Bishop of London, that such provisions were " a mistake in Legislation." But it is one thing to force the conscience of a man, and it is another to protect his civil liberty, of worshipping God according to his conscience on the Lord's-day, from the avaricious or disorderly en- croachments of his unconscientious neighbour. 37. Your Committee report with pleasure the assurance o-iven in evidence, that the decorous observance of the Sun- day has been and is increasing amongst the higher classes : nevertheless they would consider their Report imperfect, did they not express their anxious solicitude that those who are elevated in society should seriously consider how im- portant it is that the Lord's-day should be duly reverenced on their part, and that they should all evince, by a con- sistent example, that they are disposed to " remember the Sabbath-day to keep it holy," from respect not only to human enactments, but to the authority of Him by whom the day has been set apart for the wisest and most bene- ficial purposes. Such conduct must eminently conduce, as it ever has done, not only to their own highest interests, as affording them a day of rest and retirement, but to the welfare of their families and dependants ; thus transmit- ting their good example through all the various grades of society, and thereby strengthening the hands of the Ma- gistracy in their efforts to uphold the laws. 38. In support of the foregoing recommendations, your Committee think it not inappropriate to call the attention OBSERVANCE OF THE LORD's-DAY. 15 of the Legislature to His Majesty's Royal Proclamation " for the encouragement of Piety and Virtue, and for the " preventing and punishing Vice, Profaneness, and Im- ** morality," which is set forth at the commencement of each King's reign, and commanded to be read in open- court by all Judges of Assize, Justices at Quarter Sessions, &c. &c., wherein his Majesty acknowledges, "that We " cannot expect the blessing and goodness of Almighty " God (by whom Kings reign), and on which We entirely " rely to make our reign happy and prosperous to ourself " and our people, without a religious observance of God's "holy laws." "And We do hereby strictly enjoin and " prohibit all our loving subjects, of what degree or qua- " lity whatsoever, from playing on the Lord's-day at dice, " cards, or any other game whatsoever, either in public ** or private houses." " And We do hereby strictly charge " and command all our Judges, Mayors, Sheriffs, Justices *' of the Peace, and all other our Officers and Ministers, both *' Ecclesiastical and Civil, and all other our subjects whom " it may concern, to be very vigilant and strict in the " discovery and the effectual prosecution and punishment " of all persons who shall be guilty of excessive drinking, " blasphemy, profane swearing and cursing, lewdness, " profanation of the Lord's-day, or other dissolute, im- " moral, or disorderly practices ; and that they take care " also effectually to suppress all public gaming-houses and " places, and other lewd and disorderly houses, and to " put in execution the Statute made in the nine-and-twen- *' tieth year of the reign of the late King Charles the " Second, intituled, ' An Act for the better Observation of ^' the Lord's-day, commonly called Sunday.' " 39. It will be seen strongly stated in evidence, that in- numerable unhappy individuals, who have forfeited their lives to the offended laws of their country, have confessed that their career in vice commenced with Sabbath-breaking and neglect of Religious ordinances. 40. Your Committee are of opinion that the amendment of the Law which they have ventured to recommend, is not only in itself a proper and necessary measure, but more- ever that the moral influence over all classes of men, which will be produced by the very fact of the attention of the Legislature being directed to this subject, will in itself be very considerable. Nor can it reasonably be doubted that, by means of such amendments, a considerable attention 16 COMMONS REPORT ON THE LORD's-DAY. would be given to the temporal comforts of individuals, more especially of those in the middle and lower classes of society. Indeed, in the v^'ords of one of the witnesses examined by your Committee (confirmed by the testimony •of many others), the Tradesmen themselves who now exercise their callings on the Lord's-day would consider a more strict law for the observance of that day, not as a restraint, but "as a blessing." Your Committee feel assured that an increase of true Religion must also follow, inasmuch as many persons, thus favoured with an entire day of rest, would be led to employ it for religious pur- poses ; and that a great accession would accrue to the strength and prosperity of the State itself, arising out of the improved tone of morals which a due observance of the Sabbath-day invariably produces. And there are, moreover, abundant grounds, both in the Word of God and in the history of past ages, to expect that His Blessing and Favour would accompany such an endeavour to pro- mote the honour due to His holy Name and Commandment. 41. Your Committee conclude with expressing their earnest hope, that early in the ensuing session the House will take into consideration the suggestions which they have made, and especially the Evidence on which these suggestions are founded, with a view to amending the Laws relating to the Observance of the Lord's-day. August 1832. LONDON: Printed by Ellerton and Hkndeuson, Gough Square. Sold by Messrs. Rivington, St. Paul's Church-yard and Waterloo Place ; by Messrs. Hatchaud, Piccadilly ; and by Messrs. Seeley, Fleet Street. Price Id. each, or (is. per hundied. EVIBENCZ: GIVEN BY THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON and DR. FARRE BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE OP THE HOUSE OF COMMONS Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed August 6, 1832. The Right Hon. and Right Rev. Lord BISHOP o/" LONDON, attending by permission of the House of Lords, examined. The Committee understand that your Lordship resided formerly at Chesterford -Yes. On the road to Newmarket ? — I resided there from 1810 to 1812 as curate, and from 1817 to 1824 as incumbent. In that situation had your Lordship any opportunities of observing the effects of Sunday travelhng ? — Too many. Can you state to the Committee any of the effects produced by such Sunday travelling upon your own people, in the first instance ? — I can hardly speak in language too strong of the evil effects that were pro- duced, not merely upon the spiritual state of my parish, but upon its moral condition, by the manner in which Sunday travelling was car- ried on, in, or rather through, that parish, at particular times of the year. Do the Committee understand that the particular times of the year to which your Lordship refers had any relation to Newmarket ? — I speak principally with reference to the Newmarket meetings, Chester- ford being the last place at which the frequenters of Newmarket changed horses. The effects to which I allude were certainly not con- fined to those particular times of the year, but it is to those particular times of the year that I refer as presenting the prominent points of grievance of which I had occasion to complain. With the leave of the Committee, I will state briefly the principal points to which ray obser- vations refer : The Newmarket meetings commence on the Monday ; the consequence is, that the greater part of the visitors to them go down on the Sunday, and they usually reach Chesterford about the time of afternoon service ; some indeed came in the morning, and got down to Newmarket in the middle of the day, that they might go and see their horses on Sunday afternoon, before they went on the course on Monday morning ; but the greater part of the company- used to reach Chesterford about the time of afternoon service, and I have known on some occasions more than forty pair of horses change there in the course of the Sunday afternoon; of course the number of persons usually employed in the service of the inn (for there is only- one posting- house there, which is situated very near to the church) is by no means sufficient for this extra demand, and therefore a number of young men in the parish, who are at other times employed as agri- No. I. A Bishop of London. 2 cultural labourers, are called in to assist the regular stable servants of the inn ; but the evil done by breaking in upon the Sabbath duties of these persons, comparatively few in number, was trifling with respect to the mischief produced on almost the whole population. The com- pany who visit Newmarket consist not only of persons of bad cha- racter, of no rank or station in society, but of many of the first nobi- lity and gentry of the land. It was a common custom, not only of the people of my own parish, but of all the neighbouring parishes within five or six miles, to come, and, as they phrased it, see the gentry go down to Newmarket (I am now speaking particularly with reference to Easter Sunday); the consequence was, that all that part of the parish in which the church was situated was crowded with spec- tators from the neighbourhood ; all of whom were of course absent from their own village churches. Booths were erected along the road, beer sold, and the usual inducements to gambling and drinking which are commonly met with on those occasions. There used to be a great clamour and noise in consequence of the calling aloud for change of horses and for new packs of cards, it being very common for some of the parties travelling to employ themselves in playing cards in open carriases along the road: ihese cards were frequently thrown out into the road, between the inn and the church, sometimes with the most fearful execrations on the bad luck of the gamblers, and fresh cards were called for, which were supplied in the sight of the assembled mul- titude. In short, Easter Sunday, with the exception of the limited congregation who attended church on that da}', and the greater num- ber of whdVn hunied out at the conclusion of the service to witness the sight, was employed partly in intemperance and riotin", and partly in witnessing the gross and indecent violation of the Sabbath by their superiors. Upon my taking charge of the parish, I endeavoured to put a stop to the booths selling beer, and other practices of a like nature upon that occasion ; and by personal representations to my parishioners, and by conversation with many of the parties who were in the habit of attending, I succeeded without any interference on the part of the magistrates; but 1 found it impossible to stop the large assemblage of the people, and it was vain to argue with them as to the impropriety of coming together for such purposes on the Lord's-day, because I was always met with this argument^ that if it be right for our superiors lo travel to Newmarket on the Lord's day, it can- not be wrong for us to go to see them ; and so I found my ministry con- siderably impeded by circumstances connected with Sunday travelling during the whole of my continuance there. Of course Sunday tra- velling is not confined to the Newmarket days, but it was on those days that it was most offensive and injurious. How often in the course of the year did the recurrence of this cause produce similar effects ? — I am not quite sure whether there were four or five Newmarket meetings in one year. In every one of which meetings the Committee understand that the same Sunday travelling prevailed as your Lordship has stated to have prevailed on Easter Sunday ? — Yes; but not to the same extent, or with the same attention paid to it on the part of the people. Have any attempts been made to remedy the evil complained of, 3 Bishop of London. other than those your Lordship has stated to have been made by yourself and your own people at the time of your own residence there ? — More than one : just upon my leaving the parish, 1 had some communication with a gentleman in the neighbourhood, the present Lord Braybrook, then Mr. Neville, who felt together with myself the evil which resulted from the practice alluded to ; and being a leading member of the Jockey Club, he consulted with me as to the possibility of putting a stop to the practice referred to, by getting the first day of the races changed from the Monday to the Tuesday. I communicated with the then Bishop of London on the subject, and he had some correspond- ence with a very influential person respecting the change proposed. Owing to difficulties into which it is not necessary to enter more par- ticularly, it was not effected. As I then quitted this part of the coun- try, I cannot speak positively as to any subsequent attempts ; but I have reason to believe that the proposed change has been once at least since that time submitted to the Jockey Club, and 1 rather think pre- vented from being carried into effect by a very small majority; from which I conclude that many persons of rank and station, who frequent Newmarket, are alive to the evils which I have just described. I have reason to believe, however, that those evils, such as they are, still con- tinue unabated ; and that in sixteen or seventeen parishes in my dio- cese, which is the number of parishes through which the road to Newmarket lies, the rest and quietness of the Sabbath-day is disturbed, and the usefulness of the clergy, as teachers of religion, is materially impeded by Sunday travelling. You have, it is understood, called the attention of the public to the subject, in a letter addressed by you, on the subject of the observance of the Lord's-day ; distinct from (hat mode of calling public attention to the question, and distinct from the recommendation you have just stated to have been addressed, at your suggestion, to the Jockey Club, do you consider that there are other means than the strict observance and enforcement of the law by justices upon the spot, which can pre- vent the evil of which you make complaint ? — 1 feel some difficulty with respect to any legal enforcement of the devout observance of the Sabbath-day ; I feel none as to measures which shall prevent gross violations of it without necessity : but with respect to travelling, I have not ever been able to make up my mind as to any legislative pro- vision, which, while it prevented the unnecessary infraction of the rest of that day, should not, on the other hand, impose inconvenient and unnecessary restrictions in other quarters. Your Lordship, in describing the evils arising out of travelling to Newmarket on Sunday, no doubt meant to illustrate the evils arising out of travelling on Sunday generally? — I intended principally to s-hew that whatever evils arose from travelling on a Sunday, are continued and propagated by the sanction and example of the higher classes, who travel without necessity, and on these occasions with an almost ostentatious infraction of the decency of the Christian Sabbath. Although your Lordship feels at a loss to recommend any special legislative enactment to prevent ^Sunday travelling, is it your opinion that all meetings on Monday or Saturday, which may lead to Sunday travelling, might, where it is possible, be postponed to other days, A 2 Bishop of London, 4 not only with regard to Newmarket meetings, but meetings for other purposes? — I will speak with reference to Newmarket, having lived a great part of my life in ,the neighbourhood. I believe that even with reference to the parties who attend Newmarket, no real inconvenience would be occasioned by the change in the day ; this is almost proved by the assent which was given to the change by a large proportion of the persons most interested in the question. But I am glad to have this opportunity of stating my opinion, that if the greatest conceivable inconvenience, as far as relates to this amusement, were to be occa- sioned by the change in the day, that it would be no justification whatever of parties who resist that change, provided it can be made to appear that such a change would have the effect of obviating the evil complained of; because no person can pretend that any convenience or inconvenience connected with mere amusement can be put in com- petition with a great moral injury done to a very considerable class of the community. Did your Lordship act as a magistrate in the parish of Chesterford ? — Not when I first lived there ; I did afterwards. Then the success you had in putting down some of these nuisances was by exertions in your clerical character, and not as a magistrate ? — Entirely ; I never would act as a magistrate in my own parish where I could avoid it. I put down the evils I have complained of effectually before I was a magistrate ; when I was curate of the parish. These nuisances, the booths and the sale of beer, were breaches of the law, I conceive ? — Yes. Which the magistrates should interfere with ? — Yes. But they did not interfere ? — No, it was not necessary. Your Lordship said you never could make up your mind as to any legal provision for the suppression of Sunday travelling ; do you con- ceive any provision depending on common informers would be effectual, or the reverse ? — I think we ought not to consider that any legal pro- vision will depend on common informers. If all people would do their duty living under a civil government, there would be no such things as common informers. I doubt whether, if temperate and reasonable laws were passed for the observance of the Sabbath, the enforcement of them would fall into the hands of common informers ; because I think there is a very large body of serious, as well as reasonable, per- sons, who are so much interested in the proper observance of that day, with a view to the morality and happiness of the people, that they would take care not to allow such laws to fall into the hands of com- mon informers, provided the laws were so discreetly framed as not to defeat their own purpose, by too rigorous an enactment of penalties, or by too minute an interference with the habits of the people. My opinion is, that if the stricter observance of the Sabbath-day is to be enforced by legal enactments, no part of any pecuniary fine ought to go to the informers, because if there is not a sufficient mass of religious and moral feeling in the body of the community to enforce such laws, they ought not to be enforced by persons actuated solely by motives of cupidity ; I think that by that no good would come. Did these evils, which your Lordship complained of at Chesterford, exist in the same degree in other towns along the road to Newmarket ? 5 Bishop of London, —Probably not quite in the same degree in all, on account of the par- ticular situation of the inn at Chesterford, which is close to the church ; but I have consulted with the clergy of other parishes in the neigh- bourhood, and they all stated in strong terms the evils which arise. The postponement of the Newmarket meetings would be only a postponement of the evil, and not an entire correction of it, probably? — I do not look to the entire cure of any evil of that sort in any given time ; mitigation is the great thing, Your Lordship has mentioned that the erection of booths and such other practices by the road side, are contrary to existing law : did you find the magistrate of the neighbourhood willing to enforce the law with regard to such things ? — I had no occasion to apply to them, or I have no doubt they would ; I did it by my personal application to the people. I never threatened them with putting them down : I be- lieve that the constables would have acted at my suggestion if 1 had wished it ; they would have gone and suppressed them as a public nuisance. This evil onl}' exists, as far as your knowledge goes, in a great de- gree on the Newmarket road ; you do not suppose it exists in such an aggravated manner on any other road ? — No, 1 know nothing about the York road ; I only speak from my own knowledge. I hope it will be understood that I confine my observations entirely to the fre- quenters of Newmarket. I have spoken only of the travelling to New- market, as having come under my own immediate observation, and as perhaps affording the strongest case of the kind which can be chosen. 1 wish to state that the evil effects of this practice were not confined simply to the duty of observing the Lord's-day. It is obvious that the lower orders, if they see their superiors openly violating an ac- knowledged duty of religion, will not give them credit for being them- selves believers, or for having any religion at all ; and I know of nothing more likely to prevent the fixing of religious principles in the minds of the poor, or better calculated to unhinge the whole fabric of civil society, than the infusing into their minds a persuasion that those classes who have the best opportunity of inquiring after truth, and the widest field for the discharge of those duties which are consequent on a conviction of the truth, are really unbelievers. It is difficult to esti- mate the degree in which the labours of the Christian ministry are impeded, especially in towns, by the evil example of the rich. Have many complaints been made to your Lordship from the clergy of your diocese in other parts, relating to the non-observance of the Lord's-day in their respective neighbourhoods ? — Not from the coun- try ; from London and Westminster repeated complaints have been made. The complaints in question relate principally to the carrying on of trades during the greater part of Sunday, the keeping open of gin-shops, and other similar places of resort, and the reading rooms. Some of the clergy complain of the annoyance and interruption which is occasioned by the passing of the short stages along the streets, and past their churches, to which I myself indeed can speak. In the city, particularly the parishes to the north-east, very great evil is occasioned by the Smithfield Monday market ; and I have now for some years been at times engaged, with others of the clergy and laity, in endea- a3 Biiliop of London. 6 vouring to get the market changed from the Monday to the Tuesday, but we have been always opposed by the city of London. Your Lordsliip has remarked, among the evils complainedof by the clergy, that of keeping open public-houses and reading-rooms ; does not the observation you have formerly made, with respect to the habits of the rich, apply very strongly in this case ; and is it not your Lord- ship's opinion, that there would be very great difficulty, by any legisla- tive enactment, to shut public-houses and places of resort for the poor, if club-houses and other places for the rich remain open ? — There is a difficulty, but by no means an insuperable difficulty in it. I certainly do not approve of the higher orders resorting to club-houses on a Sunday ; but with respect to the evils which result to the com- munity at large from this practice, 1 do not think it comparable to that which results from keeping open gin-shops, for there certainly is not the same mischief wrought to the parties themselves who frequent clubhouses, which there is to the frequenters of low drinking houses. Their families do not sufter in the same degree, nor does the conta- gion of example spread with the same rapidity. At the same time I must candidly state, that I think the higher classes should, in all cases of this sort, legislate, where they are called on to do so, very tenderly for tlie poor, and not interfere farther than is absolutely necessary, for the ends of public decency and the interests of religion, in practices which may be to a certain extent sanctioned by their own example : and I must be allowed to add my conviction, that the exemplary ob- servance of the Sabbath-day on the part of the higher classes of the community would speedily obviate the necessity of any legislative in- terference with the poor. But, in the mean time, as I do not entertain a hope of seeing such a state of things speedily brought to pass, I think it our duty to interfere, as friends to the poor, and stop them from running a career of evil as injurious to themselves as it is mischievous to the best interests of the community. Would not your Lordship limit your observations respecting the example of the rich with regard to trading ; trading is carried on on Sunday morning by the poor to a considerable extent, and, as we have seen in evidence, to their real injury, which is a point where they are not carried by the example of the rich ; you would see no objection therefore to legislate on that particular point ? — I am not disposed to limit my observations as to the ultimate effect of such a change as I contemplated ; because the poor receive from the rich (and when I speak of the rich, I mean those above them in the world) the money which they spend upon the Sunday morning. I apprehend that the influence of the higher classes, if their example were generally exem- plary, as I supposed, would necessarily descend and operate on those next beneath them, and so on, till the practices complained of would be gradually put an end to by the application of remedies which might from time to time be found necessary ; for instance, the mas- ters would take care to pay their men, so that they should not spend their money on Sunday mornings : but, as I said before, till such a state of things is found to exist, we must interfere to a certain ex- tent with the poor for their protection, to protect them in fact frona themselves. 7 Bishojo of Lo)tdon. Assuming that the same evils exist in the club-houses of the rich as in the pot-houses of the poor, has your Lordship found a diffi- culty arising from the fact that the club-houses were the private pro- perty of the parties resorting thereto, in interfering to prevent any evils there found ; a difficulty which does not exist in interfering with respect to the evils connected with public-houses ? — I have never attempted directly to interfere with either of them, therefore I can hardly answer that question ; but if I had seen the same effects pro- duced by club-houses, that is, if I had seen the persons who frequent them staggering about the streets, leaving their families in distress, and committing breaches of the peace, I should perhaps have endea- voured to call the attention of the public to one as well as to the other. Is it your Lordship's opinion, from reading and inquiry, as well as from observation, that the observance of the Lord's-day is more or less strict now that it was two or three generations ago? — I think, with respect to the middling classes, that greater attention is paid to tlie duties of the Lord's-day than was paid thirty years ago. With respect to the lower classes, there has been, to a certain extent, a consider- able improvement since the establishment of the system of national education : that is to say, as far as the capacity of our churches has admitted such an improvement to take place ; but I fear that with regard to the great mass of the lower orders there has been a sad deterioration, very mainly owing to the increased facilities of in- temperance. Has your Lordship observed, in connexion with an habitual absence from church on Sunday, a habit of Sabbath profanation in other respects ? — It is difficult to form an opinion, except in country places ; my observation leads me to conclude that persons who absent them- selves from public worship are not exemplary in the discharge of any part of their duty. Your Lordship's answer to the last question but one had reference to the middling and lower classes; can your Lordship state how far among the higher classes you hold the observance of the Lord's-day is now more or less strict than it was at the period to which that answer referred ? — My own experience as a country clergyman relates princi- pally to the lower classes. I have only had an opportunity of noticing the conduct of the higher classes in this respect of late years. I am really inclined to hope that (here is a considerable increase in the number of those among the higher classes who observe the Lord's-day. In reference to the more or less strict observance of the Lord's-day at present, compared with what it was two or three generations ago, it has been stated that the levees and the courts and the drawing- rooms were held formerly on the Sunday ; does not the cessation of that practice, in your Lordship's judgment, encourage among the higher classes the due observance of the Sabbath? — Cerfainly ; I should say decidedly that there is less of that false shame which pre- vented many of the higher classes formerly from strictly observing the Lord's-day, than there was even within my own recollection ; and I may add, that our churches in London are much better filled, twice, or even three times in the day, and that by the higher classes, than they were even once in the day twenty years ago. A 4 Bishop of London. 8 Has your Lordship ever instituted a comparison between the gross population of your diocese in connexion with the Estabhshed Church and the amount of the space in the Established churches ?— Yes : I could not, not having the document with me, state it correctly ; it is so continually varying, that I could not state any one year with any degree of accuracy, on account of the continual variation both in population and church room. The question would be sufficiently answered by the present im- pression on your Lordship's memory as to the proportion of the population which could be accommodated by the present space ? — Not a tenth, certainly ; generally speaking, the church accommo- dation in the metropolis is utterly insufficient for the accommodation of the parishioners ; and where we build new churches they are immediately filled. A great defect in the London churches is the want of accommodation for the poor. Your Lordship would recommend, in case of new churches being built, that an enlarged accommodation for the poor should be provided ? — That is always secured now ; in every new church that is built a certain amount of accommodation for the poor is secured. In the city of London itself are the poor adequately provided for ? — There is much more room in many of the city churches than they require. Your Lordship's observation respecting the want of adequate accom- modation for the poor applies to the parishes without the walls ? — Yes. From the account of the disproportion between the population in connexion with the Establishment, and the space afforded in the churches, it would appear that comparatively few have the opportunity of attending church? — Few of the poorer classes. And that this to a considerable extent must be admitted as a cause, a general and prevailing cause, of that habit of Sabbath profanation in other respects which we witness? — Yes. I should not like to put my answer so strongly as to imply that there was no other provision for the religious instruction of the people than that which is given them in the Established Church ; but I can have no hesitation in saying that this cause, which has been for many years in operation, is one efficient cause of the present neglect of the Sabbath. Would the multiplication of churches in the Establishment in the same proportion operate as a remedy ?— No, because the evil is now done ; and it is a different thing to prevent an evil accruing, and curing it when it has arisen; but that it would, in such a proportion as to repay the nation, or the parties who might build such churches, for the outlay, I have no doubt. That it would be one of the most effectual means of recalling what we may consider the alienated part of the population ? — I think, if sufficient accommodation were provided in churches, and care were taken to place able and faithful clergymen in those churches, that this would be by far the most promising method of remedying the evil now complained of. Does not your Lordship think that if the accommodation for the poor were in all cases placed perhaps less remote from the clergyman, and more conveniently situated, it would have an increased tendency to induce them to attend church ? — It is the object of his Majesty's 9 Bishop of London. Commissioners for Building New Churches, as far as they can, to intermingle the seats of the rich and the poor, so as to afford the latter nearly the same facilities for hearing which the former enjoy. We have found considerable difficulty in realizing our own wishes in that respect, on account of the objections which were made by the richer classes to too great an intermixture of the poor among them ; objections which it was absolutely necessary to attend to, because the whole income of the minister depends on the pew rents accruing exclusively from the richer classes. But still, in some of the churches that have been built, it has been seen that the free seats have been inconveniently situated, and that the poor have taken exceptions against such arrangements, to the great diminution of the congregation. The Committee beg to ask whether it would not be desirable to give the advantage (consistently with the necessary provision for the clergyman) to free sittings ? — It is desirable ; but I must again repeat that we have always made it a primary object, and in most of the new churches, where the churches are large enough, the seats are appropriated to the poor in the middle aisle from one end to the other; very conveniently for the purposes of hearing. And I may add, as it has some reference to the subject, that in many cases seats which have been rejected by the poor as free sittings, have been readily hired by them at a very small annual rent ; the vesting in them a certain property in the seat takes away that feeling of degradation which sometimes prevents them from occupying free seats. As your Lordship has been bishop of a diocese where manufactures greatly prevail, and where the children and young persons are so overworked and confined, as to leave them no means of recreation on work-days, so that they are induced to make the Lord's-day a time of recreation merely ; is it not your Lordship's opinion, that a reason- able remission of the hours of labour in mills and factories would greatly tend to the better observance of the Sabbath-day, assuming that there is not the slightest opportunity for any thing like recreation during other days in the week ? — That is a point on which my opinion isworth nothing more than thatofany other person, becauseitisaquestion of speculation ; it is very obvious that if the poor have all their leisure and recreation thrown into the seventh day, they cannot employ, or will not employ, the same portion of that seventh day in the exercise of religion, which they would be disposed to do if they had some relaxation on the week-days. We have had it in evidence that in Scotland it is usual to make the days of work shorter on Saturday, and that the workmen stop at four o'clock, to enable them to make their market ; do you not think such a regulation desirable in this country, and would tend to the observance of the Lord's-day ? — Undoubtedly. A very great improve- ment wouldbe effected by the paymentof labourerson the Fridayinstead of Saturday. Will the Committee first allow me to state, as this evidence may be read perhaps in the manufacturing districts, that I have observed the best effects to follow in manufacturing towns from the institution of large Sunday schools, and that these have promoted a devout observance of the Sabbath-day, in a degree only to be estimated by those who witnessed them in operation. a5 Bishop of London. 10 Your Lordship is not, perhaps, aware of the fact of the great disin* clination of children to attend Sunday schools, who have been labouring in factories for an excessive number of hours in the week, and that the parents find a great difficulty in inducing, or almost compelling, their children to go ? — I am looking particularly to one Sunday school, con- sisting of between 1200 and 1500 young persons; 1 refer to the town of Bolton: there was great readiness to enter into that school j but then it was peculiarly well managed, and connected with a little savings bank against sickness on the part of the young people ; it was the most perfect specimen of a Sunday school I ever saw, and kept together the church there, and promoted the good order of the town in a degree which hardly any person could estimate who had not seen it in operation. Did the scholars of that school consist entirely of the factory children? — No, there were a great many of the hand-loom weavers' children. Perhaps your Lordship is not aware of the fact, that in Scotland, where parish schools are universally established, or which are now very general, they are confined altogether to instruction on religious subjects ; would it not be very desirable to see the Sunday schools in England confined to religious instruction also? — They are so confined when in connexion with the Established Church. Your Lordship mentioned the increased facilities of intemperance as one of the causes of the demoralization of the lower orders, and the disobedience of the Sabbath ; the Committee understood your Lordship to allude to the regulations lowering the price of gin and opening beer- houses ? — I was not alluding to beer-houses, which are of recent date, though I find one unvarying tenor of complaint on the part of the clergy in the counlry in that respect ; the experiment was so recent, that I did not mean to allude to that ; I spoke with regard to gin- shops only. The lowering of the price of gin took place only a few years ago ; does your Lordsliip date the demoralization of the lower classes only from that period ? — I date a most frightful increase from that period ; between the time I first took the church of Bishopsgate, in London, and the time when I left it, the increase of intemperance was most frightful. 1 never saw, when I first came to London, a female coming out of a gin-shop ; but I have since repeatedly seen females with infants in their arms, to whom they appeared to have been giving some part of their liquor. I almost think I have seen more women than men coming out of these shops. The Committee understand your Lordship to say that you consider the lower classes have been improved since national schools have been established ? — To a certain extent, as far as that class has been brought by that means under the immediate superintendence of the clergy ; but it is a very small portion of the whole in populous towns. Your Lordship has stated that the middling classes and that the higher classes have attended Divine service much better within the last two years ; is not there a hope that that would continue to improve without any compulsory legislation on the subject? — As I have great confidence in the final success of the rii!:ht cause, I have no doubt it 11 Bishop of London. will continue to improve ; but I think that in the lower classes of society so frightful and rapid a deterioKition is going on, that it would be an act of kindness to step in and check them, and to save them . from running into evil: it is very true, you cannot instil principles of piety into their minds by preventing them desecrating the Sabbath, but you may save them from those practices which will render it impos- sible for the teachers of religion to instil it into their minds ; and you may prevent, to a considerable extent, the contagion of example. Is your Lordship aware of any instance in which an enactment of penalties has ever been effective in enforcing moral or religious duties ? — I think not ; but I take this view of the subject : I am persuaded you will do no good by punishing people for not going to church ; but I think you will do a great deal of good by preventing persons from spreading out those temptations which prevent the people from going to church. I think that the positive enforcement of religious duties by penalties is a mistake ; it is a mistake in the principles of legislation : but I think you ought, if you look on religion as the basis of all sound principles and social order, to prevent and take out of the way as much as you can those temptations which must check the growth of religion, and encourage the growth of irreligion. Is there no danger, by compulsory legislation, of exciting a feeling of resistance in the minds of those who would otherwise be inclined to attend to those duties ? — I am tirmly persuaded that if the dese- cration of the Lord's-day, in the way of trading, were prevented, so far from appearing as a hardship upon the poorer classes, it would be a great boon. I apprehend they are now compelled to traffic on the Lord's-day, and that they would consider it a real boon to be pre- vented ; for they must be supplied, and it is the interest of vendors to supply them, and if they are prevented serving them on the Lord's- day, they will supply them with an equally good article, and I believe cheaper, on any other day in the week ; and if an employer found that the persons in his employ could not be supplied with the necessaries of life on the Sunday, he must, for the sake of his own interest, pay them in such a manner and at such times as would enable them to get supplied in some other way, and in this point of view the poorer orders would be clear gainers ; they would gain for themselves all that time on the Lord's-day which they are now obliged to spend in providing necessaries for themselves and their families. Has your Lordship considered the question, by what penalties or what legal powers you would enforce these regulations you deem useful on a Sunday ? — No, 1 cannot say that I have considered that sufficiently to give an opinion upon it. Would you by statute vest the power of enforcing such regulations in any person generally who chose to interfere on the subject, or would you think it better to confine it to the parochial authorities ? — I am afraid that such a limitation would defeat the ends of any enactment ; the parochial authorities, constituted as they are now, have already quite as much on their hands as they can do : indeed one part of their duty consists in preventing the profanation of the Lord's-day, as far as they have power to do so by law, but you cannot expect that two churchwardens and three or four overseers shall be able to notice all Bishop of London. 12 the profanation of the Lord's-day in a parish with 20,000 or 30,000 inhabitants. Does your Lordship think that without that limitation to parochial authorities, there would be found sufficient volunteers in the service to make the statute efficient \ — 1 think there would be. I may take this opportunity of stating that 1 think there ought to be a much more extensive and effisctive body of parochial authorities in populous places. Reverting to the subject of church room : your Lordship has stated that the supply in London, within the walls, is always more than ade- quate to the demand of the population ; does that answer imply that the poorer classes have free access to the large churches within the city, or merely that there is vacant church-room not occupied by any class ? — In many of the city parishes there are few or no poor, the houses being almost entirely occupied b}' warehouses, counting-houses, and houses left in the charge of porters and housekeepers on the Sun- day ; in other parishes in the city there is sufficient room for poor; in some, for instance St. Botolph, Bishopsgate Street, which was my own parish, the accommodation provided for the poor is very inadequate, and though that is not within the walls, it is part of the city. Your Lordship is no doubt aware that in several of the parishes within the city there are fewer poor in proportion to the population, generally, than any other part of the metropolis, in consequence of this fact, that the labouring men who work within such parishes during the week, reside with their families in the suburbs of the metropolis, in which suburbs there is not sufficient accommodation ? — The great proportion of the labourers alluded to in the question reside in the parishes of Bethnal Green, Stepney, and Whitechapel, where the church accommodation is very inadequate to their wants. Can your Lordship state to the Committee what proportion of church room has been provided by the Slate during the last ten years, and what has been the amount paid during the last ten years ? — I will answer generally, that I believe the church room provided by the State during the last ten years is nearly 200,000 of the additional sittings ; but more correct information will be obtained from the Annual Reports of the Church Building Commissioners, the last of which either is laid or will be in a day or two laid on the table of your House. Is your Lordship aware what proportion such increase of church room bears to the increased population of the country ? — No, 1 cannot; it is very easily ascertained. It being perfectly clear, however, that the population has within the last ten years increased greatly more than 200,000, and to the extent probably of ten times that amount, the increase provided by the State for the people bears a very inadequate proportion to the parts of such people ? — The increase of accommodation provided by means of the Parliamentary grant, 1 conceive, did not sufficiently supply the wants of the then existing population; I consider that little or no provision has been made for the wants of the population which has arisen between the two last censuses ; provision, I mean, in that way. In what other way has provision been made for the accommodation of the people, for the purpose of religious worship, within the period which the question has referred to ? — Very considerable exertions have 13 Bishop of London. been made within the last ten years, in the way of public subscription, parochial rates, legacies, &c., towards enlarging existing churches, and building new ciiapels, to which results the Society for promoting the Building and Enlargement of Churches and Chapels has mainly contributed. Can your Lordship state what proportion the aggregate of such in- crease bears to the population for the benefit of which it was intended? — A much more considerable proportion than in the other case. Can your Lordship state from your own experience, either as a private clergyman or as a bishop of the two most populous dioceses in the kingdom, what has been the effect of the inadequacy of church room upon the moral character of the people in any parts of such diocese? — Perhaps the evil effect of a want of church room may be most correctly estimated by the good effects which have resulted from the erection of new churches ; as far as my own inquiries have extended, the erection of a new church in a populous neighbourhood, and the consequent provision made for the education of the children of the poor, has always, and that rapidly too, improved the moral complexion of the whole vicinity ; the attention of the people has been forcibly directed to the observance of the Lord's-day ; they have had the business of religion brought home to their doors, and enforced upon them, not only by the public duties of the Sabbath, but by the personal inquiries and conversation of their minister; they have learned to take a pride in their own church, and in considering themselves membere of a congregation, inhabitants of a certain district, objects of interest, and comparatively of importance. I could mention a church in my own neighbourhood, near London, which was erected in a spot which- was formerly remarkable for noisy and riotous conduct on the Lord's- day ; the character of the place is entirely changed, the church fills, and the very persons who strongly opposed the erection of the church have since subscribed liberally for its decoration. Will your Lordship state generally to the Committee in what way the existing religious accommodation for the people of this country has been provided ? — The parish churches were built either by the muni- ficence of individual lords of manors, who wished to provide for the religious instruction or for the participation in religious offices by their tenantry, or by the monasteries, and in some cases by the contributions of the inhabitants of a certain district. Without venturing to assume that the clergy do not often from their pulpits explain to their flock the nature of the duties proper for the Lord's-day, is it not your opinion that it would be very desirable that that subject should constantly be brought before the mind] — I have no reason to suppose that the clergy do not, from time to time, inculcate the due observance of the Lord's-day on their congrega- tions ; on the contrary, I take it for 'granted that they do. But I would not recommend constant recurrence to this topic, because I am afraid that the people would by degrees be led to place the essence of religion in the observance of stated forms. Nevertheless, your Lordship is of opinion that without a due ob' servance of the Lord's-day a clergyman can have no sufficient oppor- tunity of inculcating religion? — ^1 cannot state, in terms which would Bishop of' London. 14 do justice to my own feelings, my opinion as to the importance of the Lord's-day, both as an institution of mercy and of spiritual improve- ment : and I am quite sure that those persons who are brought to con- sider that day as given not only for a da} of rest but of religious improvement, soon come to take a pleasure in the right employment of that day, which is a much more eflectual as well as a much purer recreation than any thing which is commonly termed amusement. Does not your Lordship think that the observance of the Lord's-day would perhaps be more effectually inculcated on tlie flock by conver- sation at other times, than by actual sermons from pulpits? — I holj that mere sermons from the pulpit (I am now speaking witli reference to the lower classes of society) will seldom effectually inculcate any religious duty, if the clergyman does not follow up his instructions by private conversations, explanatory of those difficulties which may have occurred to them. The Committee understand your Lordship to say, that you effected the removal of those nuisances at Chesterford by private intercourse with your parishioners, and not by public interference, as well as by public ministry? — I do not mean lo say I did not preach on the subject. Do you not suppose that if the higher classes concurred with the clergy and with the magistrates in acting by admonition and not by legal means, that that would be sufficient to procure among the lower classes a general due observance of the Sabbath? — I have no doubt, except as to the towns. I do not think the higher classes have their legitimate influence there, as they have, or may have, in the country, where, if they could go hand in hand with the clergy, I have no doubt it would be so. Then presuming that to be the case ; presuming that these different authorities went hand in hand, your Lordship would consider legislative enforcement only necessary in large towns ? — The assumption is too strong. If such enactments are not wanted in the country, they would be inoperative as to the country, and therefore they would be no grievance ; besides which, it is difficult to make a distinction in any legislative measures of this sort between town and country, it not being easy to define precisely where town ends and country begins. Is your Lordship aware that the magistrates in Staffordshire issued a species of admonitions and regulations on the Lord's-day, with good effect ? — I am not aware of that. Suppose the observance of the Lord's-day could be obtained by this general spirit of admonition and example among the higher classes, would it ijot be much better to obtain it by those means than by any legislative enforcement ?— Certainly. I hold it desirable to effect any change if we can by any other means; for as we have the power in our own hands, I think we ought not to do that by coercive measures which we can effect in any other way. Do you conceive any good could be done by the example of the upper classes alone, without the assistance of legislation ? — I am afraid not to any sufficient extent ; and I may be permitted to add, that I think this good would result from a legislative measure on the subject, that it would be the deliberate expression of a Christian 15 Bishop of London. legislature of their opinion as to the benefit which follows from a due observance of the Sabbath-day ; and I think that that dehberate ex- pression on the part of tlie legislature would have so great a weight with the people, that it would in many cases obviate the necessity of carrying the penal part of any such enactment into execution. And that, in point of fact, such a legislative enactment would in itself record the opinion of what is called the iipptr classes? — It would be an expression of their opinion as to what all classes ought to do ; and I cannot help adding, in conclusion, that it would impose upon the legislators themselves an additional obligation to the observance of the Sabbath. Your Lordship has observed that the Sunday preaching would be of comparatively little good, unless it is accompanied with week-day in- struction; although that week day instruction can be obtained in places thinly peopled, is it not a fact that it is in vain to look for such weekly instruction in the dense population of a great city ? — Yes, beyond a certain point. Then you are of opinion that the benefit of legislation would not arise so much from the penalties exacted, as from the parliamentary declaration it would be to the lower classes? — That would be one great effect, and prevent the necessity of enforcing any penal enact- ments } but there are classes of persons who are only to be dealt with by stronger measures of prevention. Do you not think that in those rural parishes which are not subject to such things as Chesterford, the Sabbath is generally observed ?— It was, till the beer-houses were opened, but has not been since. I beg to state I make that answer after the most careful inquiry. I have lately traversed the whole of the county of Essex, and have had con- versations with the clergymen there, and they all with one voice bear testimony to the evil effects of beer-houses in that particular direction ; as tending, in a great and fearful degree, to the desecration of the Lord's day. Then your Lordship is clearly of opinion that the existence of penal- ties would assist the clergymen and magistrates in enforcing the ob- servance of the Lord's-day ? — Certainly. Your Lordship is also of opinion that the law, as it now exists, is inadequate ? — Yes, I am. Does your Lordship think that public opinion would support stricter enactments relating to the prevention of Sunday trading? — I have no doubt of it. And with relation also to the closing of public-houses on that day for the purposes of tippling ? — I have no doubt of it whatever. Is your Lordship of opinion, that, inasmuch as the vast increase in the consumption of spirituous liquors, which public-houses supply, must take a great part of the wages of the labourer from the purchase of other articles of consumption, all other classes of tradesmen are interested in supporting a measure which has for its object the better regulation of public-houses on the Lord's-day and the prevention of tippling on that day ? — I have no doubt of it, in an economical point of view ; I mean, I have no doubt with respect to the political economy of the question. I think that the gain which would be effected by closing Dr. Farre. 16 shops and public-houses on the Lord's-day would be very great, and I think also that public opinion would be in favour of the measure. JOHN RICHARD FARRE, m d. examined. You have practised as a physician for many years ? — Yes. State the number of years ? — Between thirty and forty. Have you had occasion to observe the eiFect of the observance and non-observance of the seventh day of rest during that time? — I have. I have been in the habit during a great many years of considering the u&es of the Sabbath, and of observing its abuses. The abuses are cliiefly manifested in labour and dissipation. The use, medically speaking, is that of a day of rest. In a theological sense it is a holy rest, providing for the introduction of new and sublimer ideas into the mind of man, preparing him for his future state. As a day of rest, I view it as a day of compensation for the inadequate restorative power of the body under continued labour and excitement. A physician always has respect to the preservation of the restorative power, because if once this be lost, his healing office is at an end. If I shew you, from the physiological view of the question, that there are provisions in the laws of nature which correspond with the Divine commandment, you will see from the analogy, that " the Sabbath was made for man," as a necessary appointment. A physician is anxious to preserve the balance of circu- lation, as necessary to the restorative power of the body. The ordi- nary exertions of man run dotvn the circulation every day of his life ; and the first general law of nature by which God (who is not only the giver, but also the preserver and sustainer, of life) prevents man from destroying himself, is the alternating of day with night, that repose may succeed action. But although the night apparently equalizes the circulation well, yet it does not sufiiciently restore its balance for the attainment of a long life. Hence one day in seven, by the bounty of Providence, is thrown in as a day of compensation, to perfect by its repose the animal system. You may easily determine this question as a matter of fact by trying it on beasts of burden. Take that fine animal, the horse, and work him to the full extent of his powers every day in the week, or give him rest one day in seven, and you will soon perceive, by the superior vigour with which he performs his functions on the other six days, that this restis necessary to his well-being. Man, possessing a superior nature, is borne along by the very vigour of his mind, so that the injury o£ continued diurnal exertion and excitement on his animal system is not so immediately apparent as it is in the brute ; but in the long-run he breaks down more suddenl}' : it abridges the length of his life and that vigour of his old age, which (as to mere animal power) ought to be the object of his preservation. I consider therefore that, in the bountiful provision of Providence for the preser- vation of human life, the sabbatical appointment is not, as it has been sometimes theologically viewed, simply a precept partaking of the nature of a political institution, but that it is to be numbered amongst the natural duties, if the preservation of life be admitted to be a duty, and the premature destruction of it a suicidal act. This is said simply as a physician, and without reference at all to the theological question: but if you consider further the proper effect of real Christianity, namely^ 17 Dr. Farre. peace of mind, confiding trust in God, and good-will to man, you will perceive in this source of renewed vigour to the mind, and through the mind to the body, an additional spring of life imparted from this higher use of the Sabbath as a holy rest. Were I to pursue this part of the question I should be touching on the duties committed to the clergy ; but this I will say, that researches in physiology, by the analogy of the working of Providence in nature, will establish the truth of Revelation, and consequently shew that the Divine command- ment is not to be considered as an arbitrary enactment, but as an appointment necessary to man. This is the position in which I would place it, as contradistinguished from precept and legislation ; I would point out the sabbatical rest as necessary to man, and that the great enemies of the Sabbath, and consequently the enemies of man, are all laborious exercises of the body or mind, and dissipation, which force the circulation on that day in which it should repose ; whilst relaxation from the ordinary cares of life, the enjoyment of this repose in the bosom of one's family, with the religious studies and duties which the day enjoins, not one of which, if rightly exercised, tends to abridge life, constitute the beneficial and appropriate service of the day. The student of nature, in becoming the student of Christ, will find in the principles of his doctrine and law, and in the practical application of them, the only and perfect science which prolongs the present, and perfects the future life. You are aware of the habits of the people of this metropolis; and that a general opinion prevails, that what is called relaxation, attending tea-gardens and such places of amusement, is essential to the health of people who have been engaged in hard labour during other days of the week ; what is your opinion of such habits and such people ? — I think, that, in as far as the habit tends to dissipation, it is positively injurious. Should you conceive that it was desirable the Legislature should attempt to controul such habits ? — It would place the Legislature under the most benevolent aspect, if it attempted, both by precept and example, to controul all hurtful habits. I consider that the abuse of alcohol is the most destructive of all the habits of British men, and therefore all the facilities of obtaining it are so many means of depriving them of what really sustains them, and of giving to them that which destroys them. There is a peculiar character about the British nation, which I would express by the words, energy of character. This of itself tends so much to exhaust the man, that he may be somewhat excused for seeking means from without to stimulate him ; yet the habit of over-stimulation is the great evil of Englishmen, and the inducements held out on the Sunday, or day of relaxation, to drink, may be considered as one of the chief abuses of the Sabbath. I believe it is a more injurious abuse to the body than that of continued labour. There can be no doubt, can there, that the change of air obtained by going to such tea-gardens into the country must, to a certain extent, be beneficial to a man who has lived in a more confined air ? — Certainly. But with a view to the habit that prevails, do you conceive the injuries they sustain counterbalance the good effects ? — They more Dr. Farre. 18 than counterbalance them ; and the injury is in exact proportion to the extent to which they over-stimulate. Amongst the innumerable avenues to death, I have contented myself, in reference to the Sabbath, with pointing out the destructive effects of forcing the circulation by Gver-exciterrent from things taken into the stomach, and from undue exertions of body and mind. And in these respects, especially by continued excitement, the higher classes also injure themselves as effectually as the loveer do by mere labour of body, or intemperance in drinking. Then your observations equally apply to all classes of society ? — To all classes, high and low. * In a physiological point of view, provided those stimulants were kept out of the way at those tea-gardens or coffee-houses, would you consider them still objectionable ? — Physiologically considered, power saved is power gained, and the waste of power from every kind of excitement defeats the purpose of the day. So that on the Sabbath the labouring man is expending the powers of his body, instead of husbanding them for the following week ? — That is the fact ; and chiefly if the man be engaged in drinking ; for I believe that the inducements held out are to drink, and that the practice is to drink. The question is, whether, if the poorer sort were restricted to tea- gardens, the relaxation of tea-gardens would be prejudicial to their .health ?— Of course exercise in the open air promotes health; and it is partly by placing them in a state of temptation, and inducing them to do that which is hurtful, that such places of resort become objectionable. You are of opinion that such are the temptations, that in 99 cases out of 100, the person who frequents the tea-gardens is tempted by alcohol ? — I cannot state the proportion of persons to whom it proves a temptation, but I think that the danger chiefly lies that way. I consider a relaxation from labour and an enjoyment of moderate exer- cise in a pure air as extremely beneficial ; but I do not consider the congregating of persons, anil the over-stimulation, whether it be of mind or simply the effect of alcohol, which is the result of those assemblies, as beneficial. If that question be further pressed, I sliould be led to consider the positive injury done, for want of proper ventilation, to the best Christians in the assemblies of our churches. Religion in itself is a healing power. If those tea-gardens were stript of pernicious liquors, do you think they would be hurtful to the health of society, or to those who frequent them ? — It is adangerous question. To man, considered in his lower or animal nature, it would notbeso prejudicial ; but man is something better than an animal, and I think that devoting to pleasure the day of repose (which should be given to the rest of the body, and to that change of thought and exercise of mind which constitute the real sources of invi- goration), amidst multitudes congregated for purposes of pleasure, actually defeats the primary object of the institution of the Sabbath, as adapted to the higher nature of mtin. Are you satisfied, from your own experience and observations during the many years you have been in your profession, that the present 19 Dr.Farre. habit of excess on Sunday is injurious (o the mass of the population ? — An Englisliman of the labouring class tal therefore I am not able to answer the question. This circumstance which you mentioned happened two years ago ? —Yes. That was before the alteration of the law with regard to the licen- sing of beer shops; 1 suppose it was an ordinary public-house? — Yes, it was a little road-side public-house. And were these Irishmen principally? — Yes; men who would as soon have murdered you or any body else if they had met you ; they were desperate fellows, hard-working men, but when they are drunk they are just like madmen. The habits of these men is to spend their Sundays in this way ? — They do. They would not go to any church ? — No, but the better sort of Irishmen go to chapel ; the bettermost sort are as strict to their religion, though they are Catholics, as any set of men. You would recommend the public-houses to be opened between the hours of church, or in the middle of the day ; should you likewise recommend them to be opened for the same purpose in the evening ? — Certainly. But you would not allow persons to drink on the premises? — I think not; I think it would be attended with bad consequences. In fact, you would wish them to be closed during the whole day as a place to sit down in? — I think so ; and I think that the generality of publicans would be thankful if that was the law ; 1 think I have heard them express themselves to that effect. During what liours in the evening would you recommend they should be allowed to be open ? — I should think from 9 to 10, or half past 10, to serve beer for supper. Not before that ? — Or eight ; the church service is never over till a quarter past eight. From eight till ten ? — Yes, that would be very proper, I think. You have had great experience among the middling and lower classes of tradesmen for many years, and you are aware that butchers, and fishmongers, and people of that sort, are accustomtd to keep open their shops for a considerable part of the Sabbath-day ? — Yes, In your experience what do you suppose is their wish respecting that ; do they wish that it should be prohibited, or do they wish it to go on as it is now ? — There are some for and against it. The inquiry is general ? — Suppose a bulcher clears his shop on Saturday night, instead of letting his men go to work, he will set them to kill three or four sheep or lambs to sell on Sunday morning. I have known that done a hundred times. Suppose a butcher had such an intention, and had no conscientiou* feeling in regard to the Sabbath, the otiier butchers in the neighbour- hood would be injured by his example ? — Certainly. Parish Authorities. 70 The question is, what is the general feeling and wish of the butciiersf, taking them as a whole, on this subject? — The most respectabls part of the profession would wish to sell nothing on Sunday. In our parish we have one or tuo butchers who never sell a joint of meat on a Sun- day, and they are the most respectable butchers in the parish, and do as well, or better, than any body else. Suppose the law were altered, the butchers would kill an additional number on a Friday instead of a Saturday night ? — Yes ; and if the public knew they would not be served on Sunday, what man would go without his dinner by not getting it on Saturday. What proportion does the number bear of those who wish to aljstain from selling on a Sunday as compared with those who wish to serve ? — Not one in 20. Not one in 20 would wish to abstain? — No; the reason why they would not wish to abstain is this, they say, A. serves on a Sunday, and B. serves on a Sunday, and why should not C. ? Supposing a law could be enacted to prevent the sale on a Sunday, what number of butchers would desire to have such a law, as compared with those who would not wish it? — I think half would, five out of ten. And that half would be the most respectable ?^ — Certainly, Are you aware of any inconvenience that would result to the people, particularly to the lower orders, supposing the law was altered, and butchers were prohibited from selling meat on Sundays ? — No, I think not the least ill would result, and I was going to explain the nature of our business at this season of the year. I am not aware at all, because, as I have said before, if a man knew he could not purchase his dinner on a Sunday morning he would purchase it on Saturday night, the shops being kept open till 12 o'clock on a Saturday night. Are you aware that the poor buy at a great disadvantage on Sunday morning? — I am ; they buy at a very great disadvantage indeed. You speak that advisedly ? — I speak that as a fact; they either buy diseased or stinking articles on a Sunday morning, or if they buy fresh lamb or fresh mutton killed on a Sunday morning, they pay three halfpence per pound more than they would on Saturday night. What is the reason of that ? — The man would say to himself, I have been put to inconvenience to provide the public with a fresh article on the Sabbath day : this man wants his dinner; he must come to me, living at No. 1, because I have got a fresh killed lamb or sheep; but if he goes to No. 2, he has got none but what is left, which is in a state not fit to eat. Then I was going to explain to the Committee the nature of our business ; ours is a more perishable article than the meat, because the young potatoes at this season of the year are taken up and washed over night, and they are brought to market as early as two o'clock, and we sell them for the next day's consumption; but on the Saturday, all the potatoes that are to be consumed on the Sabbath day come to market at twelve, one, two, three, four, five, six and seven at night, and then we sell them all on Saturday night, the shops get them home, and if the people knew they could not purchase them on Sunday morning, there would be ample time to sell them on Saturday night ; and the peas are gathered in the same manner, and '71 Parish Authorities. then instead of havin^ tlie same quantity as we have on other days, we have a double quantity for the supply of the Sabbath-day, which might all be sold on Saturday, and if they were kept till the Monday morning they would be greatly damaged. Then, in point of fact, you, the wholesale dealer, sell a double quantity on Saturday, and the fault lies with the retailer ?— Yes ; but if the retailers knew they would not be sold on Sunday morning, and the public knew they could not get them on Sunday morning, they would be sold on Saturday night. Might not a poor man, living in a single room, with bad accommo- dation, be put to great inconvenience by being obliged to bring home his meat on Saturday night? — Not in the least ; I do not see that: because every poor man who buys meat I presume has something to cook it in ; and if he lives in one room there is generally a closet or cupboard, or some place where he can hang the meat up ; and meat kept in a room would keep, in my opinion, quite as sweet, and would be less liable to be fly-blown than in a hot butcher's shop, where the gas is burning all night long ; and my opinion is, that a poor man conld keep salt meat; he might put it in his saucepan or pot, or what- ever he is going to cook it in. My opinion is, he would keep it much better than the butcher. You seem to have thought on the subject, and you are not aware of any inconvenience that would result to the poor man ?. — Not the least on earth. But you think he would have the advantage ? — Yes, in two ways: in the first place, he would not be liable to extortion by paying more for a fresh article ; and he would not be so liable to be imposed upon by buying a diseased article. I am one of the Commissioners for the Court of Requests for the Tower Hamlets ; I have been some years a commissioner, and I used to be in constant attendance during the whole time ; and when any butchers have been summoned to the Court of Requests, nine times out of ten it has arisen from meat being sold on a Sunday morning, which has not been fit to eat. People have brought it to the court ready cooked, and in a stinking state, and almost all the summonses which have been heard with respect to butchers have arisen from meat being purchased on the Sunday morning. Had you complaints also of the extravagant prices paid on a Sun- day ? — I am confident of It. You have had complaints ? — No, we have not had complaints ; be- cause a man goes into a butcher's shop; he sees a shoulder of mutton, and is told it is sixpence a pound. He has no occasion to have it unless he likes. What shops are kept open on Sunday besides butchers' shops ? — There are tobacconists, and a parcel of people smoking in them ; and pigeon fanciers keep their shops open. And are there other persons who keep their shops open ? — There are : there are green-grocers, butchers, and tobacconists in particular ; there is no necessity for them. Old clothes shops ? — Yes. Shoe shops? — Shoe shops. Parish Authorities. 72 Hatters ? — I do not recollect to have seen a hatter open on Sunday. Do you not think bakers being open is a convenience rather ? — That certainly is a convenience, because if a man purchases his meat at 11 o'clock at night, he could not get it baked at 11 at night. Do jou not think being able to get a joint of meat baked on a Sun- day is an advantage to a poor man, and gives him an opportunity of having a comfortable meal with his family ? — It certainly does. Does not it enable him to go to church ? — It does ; and many families who send their meat to the bakehouse are enabled to go to church or chapel, when, if they had to cook it at home, they would be obliged to stop at home. Therefore, I do not think there would be any bad consequences resulting from that. Do you think that would or would not be a great advantage to the great mass of the population? — I do think it would be a great advan- tage, if the bakers were allowed to bake on Sunday. What number of bakers are employed in your neighbourhood on Sunday ? — There are a great number. I cannot enumerate them ; but I should think there are not less in the parish of Spitalfields than twenty bakers. What number of journeymen do they employ ? — A great many of these keep none at all ; they are industrious men, who bake and do their own things themselves. I do not think there are above three or four master bakers who keep any journeymen. Can a master who keeps no journeymen ever go to church on a Sunday? — Yes ; we have service three times a day in our church. Must he not be preparing for the bread ? — No ; they do not begin till ten or eleven at night to set what they call the sponge. Then what length of time is a baker occupied on Sunday in baking meat? — They bake nothing but dishes. How long does that occupy ? — They generally take them from eight to half past ten to the baker, and fetch them out at one, when church is over. I certainly do say that the labouring classes are much be- nefited by bakers being able to bake meat and other things on the Sabbath-day. Have you observed that a great sale of bread goes on in consequence of their being open 1 — I have never noticed any loaf being carried on Sunday morning. Are you of opinion they ought to be prohibited from selling bread ? — Yes, bread or any thing else. You would wish their shops to be kept open to allow them to bake meat, and so on ? — Yes. In your opinion are the habits of the people improved or otherwise in your neighbourhood, with regard to the observance of the Sabbath? — It has become worse and worse every Sabbath-day. Does your answer refer to the last year or two ? — These last three orf our years it has become worse and worse every day. To what do you attribute that ? — To the example set by some of the parish authorities. 1 myself, being chairman of our board of commissioners, was so disgusted at seeing the market in the state it was, that I mentioned it at the board, and our rector was there ; and 'J3 Parish Authorities. lie said, " How can you attempt to find fault with the poor when your cliurchwarden is selHng on Sunday, and going on worse than any body else ?" What was he selling ? — Meat, being a butcher ; while the church- warden before him never sold a joint in his life on a Sunday, nor the present one. You mentioned the bad effects on the morals of your own people of the siiops being open on Sundays ; are you disposed to extend that ob- servation to all the poor of the parish ? — I think it is so generally, and more particularly with the lower order of Irish. Has it an equally bad effect on the tradesmen themselves ? — On mechanics. On mechanics? — They do not come so much under my own imme- diate eye as my own description of men ; there are a great many Irish- men employed about us, and a great many employ none but Irishmen. It has been out cf the power of the weavers to spend money, because they could not get subsistence. Have they been obliged, from the extreme lowness of their wages, to work on Sunday ? — The weaving branch is entirely removed from our parish, and got into Bethnal Green ; therefore they are more out of my observation than they used to be. Do they in point of fact work on Sunday ?— I do not know any thing about that. The weavers in general are rather moral ? — More so, I think, than any other description of persons. When you state that the profanation of the Sabbath has rather in- creased during the last three or four years, does that apply to the Irish, or do you speak generally of shopkeepers and mechanics? — Generally to the Irish and altogether: and I think if serving on a Sunday was stopped altogether, you migl.t depend upon it you would see a great reformation in the lower order of society. To what cause has this increased negligence been attributed ? — The men congregating together in public-houses. There has been more drinking and riot? — Yes. Has there been any considerable decrease of the number that go to church ; any visible decrease ? — Very few of the lower orders ever at- tend our church. The respectable part of the inhabitants go ; there is no decrease, but rather an increase. We have a very popular rector nqw, a very clever man. Have you a sufficient church-accommodation for your poor.-^ — Yes, it is the largest church in London. If the poor population choose to go, there is accommodation ? — Y'^es, and there are plenty of churches and chapels and other places of worship in our parish. Are you of opinion that the Legislature should interfere to prevent the marketing that goes on on Sunday morning ? — I think it is highly necessary, and, with submission, I sliould suggest what I think would not be obnoxious to the public, and which would be attended with great good. Will you have the goodness to state it ? — I think, as to the summon- Parish Atdhorities. 74 ing persons before a magistrate for servinr; on a Sunday, that if the Jaw authorised either the parish authorities or the police to seize all things publicly exposed for sale, that would have a good effect. To seize them on a Sunda}' ? — To seize them on a Sunday ; and if any person, having his shop open for the purpose of selling things on the Sabbath, was summoned before a magistrate and convicted, I think it would be attended with great good. 1 think that the things so seized should not become tlie property of the seizer, but that they should be sent to the parish workhouse to be distributed among the poor of the parish ; that any fine accruing from the convictions before a magistrate, should not go to the informer, or any person laying an information, but it should go to liquidate the parish poor's rates whenever an offence was committed. I think that law the public would be well satis- fied with. How would you deal with shopkeepers? — In this way : if a man had a shop open with his shutters down and the doors open, and his things expf)sed to sale, he ought to be subject to a penalty ; it would perhaps be thought too much for officers of the police to go in and take the things out of a man's shop, for it would be said that was exercising an arbitrary power, but for that he should be summoned before a magis- trate, and if he was convicted, he should pay a fine, but the police I think should not be interested in that fine, nor should any other indi- vidual, but it should go for the parish welfare, that is, go towards the liquidation of the poor's rate. What would be the amount of the fine? — I would put a fine of 5*. or 10s. upon things exposed publicly for sale at a man's door, such as a basket of fruit or cabbages, or any thing of that sort, they should be by law subject to be seized by the police of the district, and taken to the parish workhouse and distributed among the paupers for their Sunday's dinner ; I think every thing that is outside a man's door should be subject to be seized. You say there should be a fine of 5s. or 10s., the fine now is 5s. ? — Yes, but it is so hard to get a conviction. Would not the profit of selling on a Sunday compensate the person for the fine ? — I would have it 5s. in advance for every conviction ; so that they should not set the law at defiance. You say that you have experienced great difficulty in obtaining a conviction ; have you made any attempts on the subject ? — No, I have not individually. Have any attempts been made to your knowledge ? — Yes. How has the difficulty arisen ? — Magistrates have some of them said it is necessary ; a rich man has his beer and fish sent home to him. Then the difficulty has arisen from the magistrates being unwilling to carry the law into effect ? — Decidedly. A change in the law would make no difference in that ? — No ; but if you had a gradation of fines, if a man was convicted 20 times, the offence would be 51. What do you mean by 20 convictions, do you mean if he committed the offence 20 times in one day? — If he was to sell 20 times in one day, I would convict him in 20 penalties. 75 Parish Authorities. You are aware tlien that on Sunday, according to the present state of the law, a man can only be convicted in one penalty of bs. ? — If a man is convicted, 1 would have him fined for every offence. But you would limit the sum, you would not allow it to go beyond a certain amount in the law, I suppose? — If a man breaks the law he breaks it at his peril, therefore I would make the fine adequate to his insolence in breaking the law ; I would allow it to go beyond a certain amount; if a man was obstinate, I would punish liim for his obstinacy, for I think no man has a right to set the law at defiance, and if a man knows he will be punished, he will not do it. Do you not think, if the sum were not limited as to a course of offences, more harm might be done than good ? — No, I do not ; be- cause the fine does good, inasmuch as if you live in a parish, and a man chooses to break the law, the fine which he pays goes to pay the poor's rates in that parish, and to liquidate the maintenance of the poor, and therefore, a man, if he offends, does it with his eyes open ; he says, I have offended twenty times, and if I sell a leg of mutton, which is only worth 5s., and I am convicted for doing it, I shall have to pay five guineas. The parish is interested in conviction, because it goes to support the poor ; but if you allow common informers to lay the information, you get twenty people to swear to a fact that never took place, and there will be unpleasant feeling on the part of the inhabitants. But, in so far as the Legislature is averse to granting unlimited power, do you not think, for express purposes, the sum of 5/. might be stated as the maximum for which a person might be fined for a series of offences on one Sabbath-day ? — Yes, I think it might. Suppose a man made so many sales on the first day, you would subject him to a penalty of 51. ; and supposing that man to offend on the following Sunday what would you make the fine ? — I would go from bl. to 5/. 5s., from 5/. 5s. to 5/. 10s. ; but that might be considered as going rather too far ; but he should be convicted every time in the full amount for every offence afterwards. Our law in general goes on the principle of giving warning, and then by degrees increasing the penalties; do you not think, if the penalty was 5s. for the first offence, and no more on that day, and in the event of the person repeating the offence, let it be 10s., and for a third offence 40s , and for a fourth offence 51., do you not think that would be sufficient? — I will tell you why I think not : In our market we have cherries brought from Kent, and instead of being brought on Saturday afternoon, as our potatoes and peas are, they are brought on Sunday morning, because the Jews do not come out till late on Saturday night, their Sabbath not being over, and there is such a riot and confusion while these cherries are being sold in the market, close to the church, that is quite disgraceful. These people say, " What do I care for the law? you may summon me every Sunday, if you please, for you can only fine me 5s." If a man was summoned two or three times it would come to 51. ? — But that same day he may have committed a hundred and fifty offences. Parish Autlior'uies. '''6 And the law considers him only as having committed one offence? —The law considers him as only having committed one offence. Suppose a man repeats the offence the next Sunday, and the penalty is increased till it comes to 5/. ; suppose there was an increase in the penalty in consequence of an increased number of convictions, would that not be sufficient to prevent a breach of the law in future?— No ; perhaps the cherries are worth 75/., and a man says, " If I keep them till Monday, they will not be worth 2.5L;" if the penalty is 2bl. it would be worth his while to pay it. These cherries instead of being brought to market on Saturday afternoon, are kept back in the river j they come up by water, and they are kept back till Sunday morning, and then they are brought up from Limehouse, and sold in the market during the whole of church time. Do they obtain a higher price on Sunday morning than they would on Saturday night ? — Certainly they do. The Jewish Sabbath is over, I believe, at six o'clock ? — Not till the first star. Do the Jews eat cherries more than any other people? — No, but they buy them to hawk about the street on the Sabbath. Suppose the fine to be increased in the manner you have suggested upon the second and third offence, and so on, might not the persons selling these articles evade the penalty by putting different persons every time at their stalls? — But if I put twenty of my men to commit an offence in my warehouse I am liable by law. But you cannot bring it home to the master; the person selling is liable to the penalty ? — I always unders^tood the master was liable. But would it not be difficult to bring it home to him ? — If you made a new law, and put it in this way, that any master suffering an offence to be committed by him or his servants should be liable, I think that would be sufficient. Supposing a law were passed, and the penalty fixed, to whom would you entrust the power of seeing that the law was carried into effect? 'fhe fittest person would be the superintendant of police of each district, in concert with the treasurer of the parish, and the conviction money should be paid into the hands of the treasurer, and he would account to the parish for the tines so received. Then you would wish it to be part of the duty of the police in every parish to see that the shops were closed on a Sunday morning ? — Yes ; and for this reason: they act independently of the parish authorities; because if we had one churchwarden a butcher, and another a clothes shopman, and another a barber (and we are obliged to take such men in our parish), they would say, ''I will not fine this man, for I sell meat myself;" but the police would be acting independently of the parishes, and I have always seen ihem conduct themselves with that propriety that gave me great pleasure, and I have assisted them on many occasions ; and I am confident that the respectable men selected for the superintendants of police are fit persons, in concert with the treasurer and rector of the parish, to carry the thing forward. I think there could be no titter persons, because they would be independent of the parish altogether ; but if you have a man a butcher, who breaks 77 Parish Authorities. the law himself on the Sabbath day, you cannot ask him to carry it into execution against Iiis fellow-parishioners. Then you are understood to sa}', that unless those persons in authority would set the example themselves, any law would lose half its effect ? — Most decidedly. Do you see any reason to object to barbers following their profession to a certain iiour on a Sunday morning? — Certainly not; till 10 o'clock on a Sunday morning. Not later ? — Not later. But the habit of people now is to shave themselves? — I believe a great many men are so poor that they cannot buy a razor, and I be- lieve there are a great many persons who never know how to shave themselves. What is your observation on the conduct of the new police? — I have always seen them conduct themselves with the greatest pro- priety; they were attacked the other night by a set of thieves ; 1 went to their assistance, and no set of men could possibly behave with so mucli forbearance and good conduct as they did. In fact I had 120 special constables, inhabitants of the parish, under my direction, when our parish was in such a bad state, before the new police were insti- tuted; I knew the nature of the thing, and I went to get a magistrate, because I expected a riot. From your observation you think the new police has been an ad- vantage to your part of the metropolis ? — I am confident it has been of the greatest advantage : there is no rule without exception ; I be- lieve the men in general conduct themselves with more propriety than any other description of police the Government ever had. You would carry the law into effect by means of a siiperintendant of police, the treasurer and rector of the parish? — I think those would be the description of persons who would not wink at any thing improper. The Committee do not exactly see what duties are to be performed by the treasurer and rector ? — Supposing that the superintendant should relax in his duty, it should be part of the duty of the rector of the parish and the treasurer to jog his memory, and to see that they did do their duty: and on a complaint going to a commissioner of the police from persons in that situation of life, every attention would be paid to it. I think the commissioner would pay more attention to persons in that situation of life than any other. You do not mean that the treasurer and rector should take any active part in it?— Only in this sort of way, that the treasurer should receive the fines ; and suppose, for instance, an}^ complaint was made in the parish, reference should be made in the first instance to persons on the spot ; and people should not be allowed, because a policeman has done his duty, to trump up a story in the newspapers, that he has officiously informed where he had no right to do it. I think, in the first instance, a complaint should be made on the spot to the treasurer and rector of the parish, because nine times out of ten they are as re- spectable men as any in the parish, and therefore they would not sanc- tion any harsh proceedings on the part of the police. Parish Authorities. 78 You confine your observations entirely to the metropolitan districts? — Yes ; and with those not having police I would leave it with the in- habitants of the district and the magistrates. In the metropolitan districts from what class of life is the superior generally chosen? — He is generally a gentleman who has lived longest in the parish, and conducted himself with the greatest propriety, a man of character and property. And who is altogether separated from any connection with the parish ? — Yes, from any feelings in the parish. How would you propose that the police should carry into effect the law ; how, for instance, would they know that a leg of mutton had been sold, they being about their duty ? — On a Sunday morning the police have a certain number of supernumeraries under the superin- tendant ; he would go out early in the morning, and I say that a man having his shop open and having his shutters down, and things exposed for sale in the internal part of his shop should be summoned before a magistrate for that offence, even without seeing any people go in : but as the law stands now, a magistrate will not convict a man for having his shop open, but you must see the money paid ; and you must actually bring forward the parties who made the purchase. Then you would api)ly the penalty to keeping the shop open ? — Certainly. Do you not see that a man might shut up his shop and carry on his traffic without having his shop open at all ? — You cannot prevent that; because you cannot station a policeman or any informer there. There are some very small shops that only have a single room, so that if a person sells his fruit, or whatever he has to sell in that room, and has no other room in fact to live in, if he were to keep his shop closed on that day he would be without light? — I am not aware of any of those shops of that small nature that you speak of, save and except for the purpose of selling things; I do not know of any instance to my own knowledge where the parties live in a small shop of that description. Do you mean to say that the parties who sell in these small shops usually have their residence in another place ? — Yes, there are a great many little fruit shops which they shut up, and go to their habitations at a distance ; there are several shops of that sort in the City Road. Suppose a person occupied a shop, and had one room beyond to live in, and has no other entrance door from the street but his shop door, how are you to distinguish in such a case, between his having his door open in such a case merely for domestic purposes, and for the purpose of sale ? — I should hope that every man interested with carry- ing the law into execution would have that common prudence and discretion about him to see whether, if a man had two or three persons in his shop, they were talking or purchasing. But the magistrate may not be so well satisfied ? — That is a thing which I am afraid I could not so well find a remedy for. Could you not remedy it in this way, that in a case where there is only one room it should be necessary that the goods should be exposed in the window to constitute the offence? — Yes, certainly. If a man had his windows open and no goods exposed to show in his 79 Parish Authorities. window, in that case it would show a disposition not to expose them for sale ? — Certainly ; 1 think that is very correct. I am supposing but one room ? — Yes ; he would be obliged to take down two shutters to give light to the room; and if the goods are put into the window you might suppose they are put there to catch the eye of the public, but if instead of that they are put under the window out of sight of the public, then it would be too hard to think that the man was attempting to commit an offence against the law. Is it your opinion, that if it could be accomplished by the Legis- lature, it is desirable to prevent all sales on a Sunday ? — Indeed I think so. At any time of the day ? — At any time of the day, except baking and supplying beer. When you speak of supplying beer, you do not mean that it should be permitted to be consumed on the premises? — Not to be consumed on the premises. To what shops would you give the indulgence of being open on Sundays for the convenience of the inhabitants to buy food or any necessaries of life ? — Our late churchwarden kept a cook-shop, and I should think there were from 400 to 600 people who purchased their dinners and dined there some days ; and there are many other shops where there are 200 or 300. And you think those shops would be necessary ? — Yes ; but I think they might be open of a morning till nine o'clock, and from one till two in the afternoon. 1 think that might be done, because all the labouring people have their dinners from one o'clock till two, in our district, and I think no great harm would result to the public from shops of that description being suffered to sell from one till two on the Sabbath, and from seven in the morning till nine or ten. Is it not to be apprehended that if such shops only were counte- nanced, they would procure licences and sell spirits likewise ? — 1 am not aware that the cook-shops sell any thing but beer, and that they have done only since the new Beer Bill has passed. Would you allow them to sell Beer ? — I would, for those hours. To be drank on the premises ? — Yes, and if they offended they would be subject to the same penalties as any body else. Would you allow them to sell spirits ? — No, there is no necessity for a cook-shop man to sell spirits. Have the morals of the people become evidently worse about your neighbourhood since the great increase in the consumption of spirits ? — I consider them to have become a great deal worse. And your remedy would be a better observance of the Sabbath-day? — I think so. How manj'^ sorts of houses and shops are there at present where the public maybe supplied with spirits on the Sabbath-day? — In our parish? In general ; I am speaking of the metropolis, according to your experience ? — Some thousands. You are asked as to the description of shops, not as to the number, but what sorts of shops ? — Cook-shops, coffee-shops, public-houses, and gin-shops. Parish Authorities, 80 What can the public get in the shape of h'quor at a cook shop ? — Nothing but porter, that 1 am aware of. What sort of Hquor-can you get at coffee-shops? — Nothing but coffee and tea. What sort of liquor can you get at the public-house ? — All descrip- tions, from beer up to brandy. And in regard to these public-houses, is it customary with them to supply victuals ? — Very rarely indeed. What sort of liquors can be obtained at a gin-shop ?— All descrip- tions, from beer up to brandy. Now of these four descriptions, cook-shop, coffee-shop, public- house, and gin-shop, how many do you think might be partially opened on the Sabbath-day ? — I would recommend the cook-shops, and no other. Would you not permit the coffee-shops to be open ? — They would do harm, certainly. Is the Committee to understand you to recommend that the public- houses and gin-shops should be closed ? — Yes, save and except to supply the inhabitants with beer for their dinners and suppers. Is the Committee to understand this recommendation to supply the inhabitants with beer for their dinner and supper should apply to both these descriptions of shops, the public houses and the gin-shops, or to one of them only? — If a gin-shop sells beer, of course it would apply equally to them, but then there would be a difficulty. If you allow a gin-shop to sell beer, of course a man would go in and say, "give me a glass of ale," and they could not refuse him, and I do not see how you could ask a man to refuse him, or how you could inflict a fine after taking a man's money for a licence to sell the article. How would you prevent the evil ? — You cannot prevent it. If you give a publican leave to sell beer to the inhabitants not to be drank on the premises, you might still make the same law applicable that gin should not be drank on the premises. And then the evil would not be so great ? — Certainly not. ]f it were declared to be unlawful that spirituous liquors should be sold, then it follows that a public-house keeper supplying spirits to a man coming for beer would be guilty of an offence? — Yes, for he has a licence to sell beer. You would only give a public-house keeper and a coffee house keeper power to sell beer at stated times ? — Only at stated times, certainly. What persons would you propose to put in the responsible office of informer; would you propose any other persons than the police.'* — The parish authorities, if they thought fit. Then is the Committee to understand you that you would devolve the office of informer on the parish officers or on the police ? — Yes, the churchwardens or the overseers of the parish if they thought fit. In what court would you propose that offences against the Sabbath should be discussed and determined? — Before the police magistrate of the district. In any other courts ? — There are no courts so cheap or so summary 81 Parish Authorilicx. as that, for an offence committed on a Siintlay may be punished on Monday morning. Then do you tliink that the superintendants of the poHce being in the capacity of informers, and the police officers in the capacity of witnesses, and the police court the tribunal for trying offences, all facilities would be afforded for carrying the law into effect with regard to the observance of the Sabbath ? — I think decidedly so ; the thing would be so summary, and summary things in my opinion are always the best. You would see a man committing an offence on a Sunday, and he might be summoned before a magistrate on the Monday, the complaint might be heard on Tuesday, and a conviction take place im- mediately; and if you convict number one, number one tells number two, and number twocommunicatesthe fact of his conviction to number three. You say that the magistrates are extremely repugnant to inflict the penalty ; how would you remedy that ? — If a magistrate does not do his duty he is amenable to the law of the land as much as any other person. You have spoken of the bad effects upon the working people ; are the bad effects equally apparent on the families of the working people? — Most assuredly. What effect has that had on the poor's rate of the parish ? — It has produced a considerable increase in the poor's rates, which are now O5. in the pound. You attribute that in a great measure to the greater demoralization of the people? — Yes, I have known men receive U. on a Saturday night for their wages, and go on Monday morning and apply to the parish officers for relief. Then in point of fact the wives and children suffer ? — The children suffer materially, and nobody but those poor wretches can tell the sufferings of labouring people's children, and their wives particularly. Have you found in the course of your experience that the labouring men who have spent their Sunday mornings in an orderly and religious manner, have been the best workmen ? — Yes, and the best husbands and fathers. And the most industrious men ? — Yes, and they never lose an hour of their time. Have you found that universally the case ? — Always; men have had 4/. and 5/. in their pocket many times. I employ all descriptions of countrymen ; I have got Welchmen, Scotchmen, Irishmen, and Englishmen in my employ. How do the generality of the work people get their dinners during six days in the week ? — The greater part of them go to the different cook-shops. There is one of the name of Frankland, a large one. That is the late churchwarden, and another named Jones, in Bricklane ; those are the two principal ones, and they dine a great many people indeed on the week days. Would it not be necessary to keep shops open on Sunday for the accommodation of the same people ? — I rather think it would be attended with a great deal of good, inasmuch as many of the poor weavers about Rrick Lane are stived up in their rooms all the week. No. II. F Parish Authorities. 82 and tliey go out on a Sunday afternoon and walk about the fields in Bethnal Green and Hackney ; and when they go home at night, they go to these cook-shops and get ready dressed meat, and if these shops were shut up they must have it cooUed on the Saturday, or they must cook it on the Sunday, and some part of their family, instead of receiving a little recreation in the fresh air, would be obliged to stop at home. Do their families go to the cook-shops f — No, they do not eat it there, they go and purchase it, and bring it away in their plates. What do (hey obtain to drink at these cook-shops ? — Nothing but porter and water. There is no excess there then ? — No, I never saw any thing bad result from it ; and during the time I had the special constableship I never was called on to suppress any riot, or any thing of that sort, in consequence of these cook-shops. Would not the cook-shops obtain licences, and so sell spirits? — If they did, the law would equally apply against them as against all other persons. The Committee understand the general result of your observations to be this, that these eating-houses might be kept open on Sundays under certain regulations? — Certainly. And that that regulation should be sufficiently strict to prevent any excesses being committed ? — Yes, of any description whatever. You mentioned from seven till nine, and from one to two, and from eight to (en, as the hours during which you would allow them to be kept open ? — Yes, I think no harm could result from that. Or from one to three, perhaps? — Yes, from one to three ; I see no objection to that. But would not the effect of that be to prevent all those persons who are connected with the cook-shops from having a day of rest on the Sabbath? — I think very little harm would result from it; those persons who would be guilty of excesses care very little for any thing to eat. But you are asked with respect to those who belong to the cook- shop itself? — I think they conduct themselves in a very respectable manner; I never saw any bad result from them. In the cook-shops have they hot meat or cold ? — Both hot and cold meat. Must there not be a great number of people kept in cook-shops to prepare that meat? — Certainly, their own servants. Then are they never to have the rest of the Sabbath ? — Yes ; sup- pose a man keeps ten servants in a week day for the purpose of his business, he would not want more than three on a Sunday, therefore seven of them might go to church each Sunday. Arrangements might be made as in private families ? — Certainly. You said you had three services in your parish church ? — Yes, from eleven to one, from three to half-past four, and from half-part six to half-past eight. Is it not a fact that a great many work-people go to their families at a distance ? — A very few people keep country-houses in our parish. Have not some of them their families at a distance ? — A very few ; 83 Parish Authorities. tlie fact is, that many poor labouring persons in and about tlie parish of Spitalfields cannot get meat six days in the week. The labourer who is obliged to do work must have a dinner every day, or he would not be able to go through the fatigue of the day; but many families live on cabbages and different vegetables; many hundreds never taste a* bit of meat from weeks end to week's end. Do they live differently from their husbands? — ^Yes ; a labouring man says, " I must go to the cook's shop, or 1 cannot go through the fatigues of the day," and his family is obliged to put up with a few potatoes or a red herring, or any thing they can get. John Torky, called in ; and examined. Where do yoii reside ? — In White-row, Spitalfields. What is your trade ? — A currier. What offices have you served in your parish ? — I have served, in fact, all the offices 5 the office that I have chiefly served was that of constable some years ago ; I am now a governor of the poor. Of the parish of Christchurch ? — Yes ; 12 years ago. How many years have you known Spitalfields market } — Twenty years. During that time has it been much the custom to keep the shops open on Sunday ? — Yes, it has. Has that increased ? — I think it has increased ; it has varied sometimes I should say. What class of people are in the habit of going to the shops on Sunday morning ?— Generally the labouring classes I believe j chiefly those ; all kinds of labourers, weavers and all kinds of me- chanical labourers. At what time do the most respectable part of the parishioners supply themselves with food for Sunday ? — No doubt on a Satur- day ; no doubt in the world of it. Do you think it is necessary that shops should be kept open on Sunday mornings for the convenience of labourers? — Not at all. When would you have them supply themselves ? — Towards the end of the week, on Saturdays. Up to what hour on Saturday night ? — I should have no objec- tion to 12 o'clock. At what hour are the labourers in your parish paid their wages ? — I should think, by all that I can hear (I have made it my busi- ness to inquire), very early in the evening, eight or nine at the latest. Then the people have always time before 12 o'clock to get their provisions for Sunday ? — No doubt of it. Do you suppose if people were aware they could not buy on Sun- day they would supply themselves on Saturday evenings ? — Doubt- less they would. But knowing they can supply themselves on Sunday, how do they devote themselves on Saturday evening?— At the public-houses ; I have seen them gambling there, and I have seen all kinds of im- propriety going on. Parish Authorities. 84 Consequently they spend a great part of their earnings on the Saturday evenings ? — I have no hesitation in saying they do. What do their VN'ives and famihes say to that ? — I have had the means of knowing what they say on the subject. Have the goodness to state what you have heard them say ?— I have heard them wish the pubhc-houses were shut up on Satur- day night, that being the evening their husbands get their money usually. And is it the consequence of their remaining in the public-houses that very little of their earnings reaches the wife? — Yes. In what condition are the families of labourers in Spitalfields ? — They are generally very poor. How is it with the more sober of the workmen ? — We find their families are much the best. Though they are paid the same ? — Yes, we find a great difference in them, and they send their children to the schools. The others do not send their children to school ? — No, they spend all their money in drinking, and they are dead to every thing else I believe. Did you ever attempt to put a stop to the Sunday traffic ? — Yes, I did 3 and effectually too. For what length of time .'' — The whole of the Sabbath. For how many months did you suceed? — About twelve months, the time I was in office as constable. How did you accomplish that object ? — W^ith the assistance and full co-operation of the superior parish officers ; I summoned a great many of them before the magistrates, and did convict some, but the magistrates wished me to let them serve till 10 o'clock: I felt and stated to the magistrates, that if we allowed them to sell till 10 o'clock, they would take till 12 ; and I found no means of effect- ing our object without stopping them entirely ; and I then indicted some of them in the Crown Office. Your object then was that they should shut their shops from 12 o'clock on the Saturday night, and should not be permitted to open them at any time on the Sunday ? — We felt that if we allowed them to open any time on Sunday we could do nothing ; and the magi- strate of Worship Street was convinced of that at last. You are of opinion that it is not desirable that they should be open at any time on Sunday ? — I think it is decidedly much against the interest of the poor that they should be allowed to open. But you say the magistrates were unwilling to convict? — Being constable, I had a summons four times a year to the grand jury at Westminster ; and I then presented the leading salesmen, and a process was served upon them which cost them a certain sum of money, a something hanging over them, if they did not do away with what I complained of j in consequence of which it was done away with. Were the people very adverse to being stopped in this Sunday market ? — A few were ; the very lowest. How was it as to the more respectable part of them ? — When I 85 Parish Authorities. left office the more respectable part of them thanked me publicly for it ; and I say now, that a great part of the respectable trades- men would be glad to have it stopped. What proportion of the population joined in that expression of thanks ? — I will instance the whole body of puljlicans at a dinner to which I was invited, when they thanked me for what I had done. The whole of them ? — I cannot say all, exactly, but with a very few excejitions. It was on the licensing day. What proportion of butchers acquiesced ? — A great number of them ; I think I may say all the respectable part of them. What other trades had you to interfere with ? — Green-grocers. Did they thank you? — Yes^ and likewise the salesmen. Fishmongers ? — We had but one fishmonger, and I did not come much in contact with him. The smallest retailers were those I had the most trouble with. The respectable shops were nearly all closed. How were the labouring people pleased with it ; how did they approve of your proceedings ? — I think there was no objection made against it after the first few weeks. I know they can always get supplied on the Saturday ; there is ample time, I am satisfied. Did it not put the poor people to inconvenience from the bad ac- commodation in their houses? — I never heard of it by any means. Is not there a difficulty in keeping meat in a poor man's lodging during the night ?— I should think not at all. How can he keep it ? — As well as in a butcher's shop, for the few hours it is there ; indeed I do not think our parish is so close as you suppose. In general the weaver's shops are large, and there are plenty of means of keeping meat. Is it not injurious to their families to sleep in the same room with their meat ? — I think not ; I think, on the contrary, the meat they buy in the market on the Sunday morning will do them much more harm. I mean to say, that in general I think the butcher's shops that are open on the Sunday sell the worst meat. Then the poor people buy it at a great disadvantage on a Sun- day ? — Yes, decidedly ; they buy the worst meat at the dearest price. Have the poor not another disadvantage from the hurried manner in which the markets are conducted on a Sunday morning ? — No ; the shops extend such a distance : they are not all situated in the market. Their necessarily being limited on a Sunday morning puts the labourer to an additional disadvantage in making his purchases, does it not? — I think so. He comes and he does not get served ? — I think he could always purchase much better on a Saturday. The best tradesmen serve on a Saturday, I should say. "Have you not a local Paving Act, by which certain additional powers have been given on the Sabbath morning? — Yes, we have. Has it been of use in olearmg the streets ? — At the time I was constable wc did apply it. Parish Authorities. 86 What are the powers under that act ? — We have the power of removing any thing off the pavement that obstructs the highway. And you fully succeeded ? — Yes, with the assistance of the sur- veyor under the Paving Act. We removed several fish baskets and fruit baskets for two or three Sundays. And have the provisions of that act been enforced up to the pre- sent time ? — Not so fully as they might be ; different officers have different views upon the subject. Who had the superintendence of such officers? — The commis- sioners of paving in that district. Do they reside within the parish ? — Yes, they do. Had they attempted to remonstrate with the parish officers for not carrying the Paving Act into operation ? — That only relates to the obstructions in the street ; to the baskets that are pitched in the street. Have they not remonstrated with the parish officers for permit- ting those baskets to remain in the street ? — Yes, they have. Have you not the power of compelling the parish officers to do their duty ? — We can compel the street-keepers and surveyor to remove tliose nuisances on the footpath and the carriage way, but nothing farther. Should you say that the Sunday with you was a scene of pecu- liar bustle and riot, or in fact a day of greater bustle in your part of the town than any other day in the week?— In consequence of having our market open, otherwise I do not see why it should be. The fact is, that with you a Sunday is a day of greater riot and bustle than any other day in the week ? — Certainly. Should you say the disregard of Sunday had a very bad eff'ect upon the morals of the inhabitants ? — Decidedly. Do you agree with the last witness, that those who are most strict in a decent observance of the Sabbath, are, generally speaking, the best inhabitants of the parish ? — I am of that opinion, certainly. And you would say likewise that they are the best in themselves, and the best towards their families ? — Yes, they send their children to our National School. We have good schools, and those who superintend the schools know it, and I happen to be one of them. Are they the best workmen during the week f — I find sober men decidedly the best. And should you say, in considering the ordinary course of the people in the parish, that distress generally arises from miscon- duct ? — I should indeed, certainly. What effect have they upon the parish rate ? — In consequence of these men being allowed to spend their Saturday evenings at public- houses, I have known their families apply to the parish for relief on the next Monday morning, though their husbands are in good work, and receiving full wages. Do you find men immediately they have received their wages go with it to the public-house ? — Yes, instead of going home and pro- viding for themselves and their families, they will go to the public- houses directly and spend their money. 87 Parish Authorities. It is not the practice in your neighbourhood for masters to pay their labourers at the public-houses ? — I never heard that it was. I do not think it is. I think the chief of our trade is with the master silk-manufacturers, and I believe they pay them in their warehouses. You never heard of a pay-table at a public-house ? — I never heard of it. Is it your opinion that the fine imposed by the present law is sufficient to put a stop to the desecration of the Sabbath ? — I think it is not, by any means. What would you conceive to be a sufficient fine ? — I should think the wholesale dealers and salesmen in the middle of the market ought to be fined something heavy for the sale of large quantities in the morning ; they supply the whole of London almost. Should you recommend a large penalty in the first instance, or would you begin with 5s., and go on multiplying ? — I have hardly sufficiently thought of that ; I think the progressive fine would be the best. Should you wish there should be a discretionary power according to the circumstances of the individual, whether a man was a little dealer or a wholesale dealer.'' — I think there ought to be a discre- tionary power decidedly. You have stated it to be your decided opinion that it would be better for the poorer classes to purchase their meat on Saturday night instead of on a Sunday morning ? — Yes. Do you think it would be as convenient and as beneficial for them to purchase their meat and keep it all the Saturday night, as to purchase on a Saturday night, leave it at the butcher's, and obtain a delivery on the Sunday morning ? — I think he might as well take it home with him on Saturday night. If the delivery were allowed on the Sunday mornings, would it not make it more difficult to prove a sale on the Sunday morning ? — I think it would. You spoke of the better observance of the Sabbath during the year you were in office, in consequence of your own exertions, in conjunction with the officers of the parish and the rector of the parish ; you say that during that time a great improvement took place in the moral condition of the inhabitants ? — Yes. Did it not continue after you went out of office ? — No, it did not. The gentlemen who succeeded me and the other officers did not think we ought to have been so strict, and so it became as it is now } they were allowed till 10 o'clock. What do you conceive would be an effectual mode of having the law dixly carried into effect ? — To prevent the market being open entirely. In whom would you vest that power ? — I think, in the police ; I think they woidd be most independent of the parish. Would you make the same exception as the last witness did in respect to cook-shops, barbers, and bakers, being open on a Sunday ? — Not in respect to cook-shops, for I believe Mr. Gregory mentioned ParisJi, Authorities. 88 one who was churchwarden, and he never did serve on a Sunday, and has a good trade. And he has grown rich more than his neighbours ? — He certainly has. And he never served on Sundays ? — He never did. Do you conceive serving on a Sunday is injurious to the pecuniary interests of the individual ? — I see it by most tradesmen round, that those who shut their .shops on Sundays are the people who do the best. What sort of people are those who go to these eating-houses on Sundays ? — I should think very few indeed. What description of people are they ? — I can hardly speak to that. How do the single men among the workmen in the parish supply themselves with food on the Simday ? — That I am not able to an- swer : I do not think they resort to cook-shops much. Do they live in lodgings ? — A great number. And can they get their victuals cooked there ? — No doubt of it. I think the respectable part of the people would not jfind any diffi- culty or inconvenience in having them shut up. Do you know how single men get their dinners ? — This person dines about 500 a day. I dare say they use these houses during the week, and they may, perhaps, also use them on a Sunday. If they require them during the week, they may require them on Sunday ? — This man is an instance ; he has his weekly customers, and he does not serve any one on Sunday. If it were not for other cook-shops being open on a Sunday, these 500 persons would not be able to obtain their dinners ? — I think we have very few cook-shops of any consecjuence, besides Mr. Frankland's. The men return to their families on the Sunday ? — Yes, I think so. You think it is desirable to encovirage the work people to return to their families on Sunday, rather than to frequent the cook-shops ? — Yes, I think so. You have stated that you find those persons who have abstained from opening their shops on Sunday were those who succeeded best in their business .'' — Yes. How is it then that persons object to shut up their shops on the ground that if they do so they lose their customers ? — We have but a few among us who would object, and those few are very low, and sell a very inferior article, which they would not sell if other shops were open, and they are very dear, particularly meat. Then in fact the more respectable of your tradesmen do shut up their shops on Sunday ? — Many of them keep open because their neighbours do ; I believe if it were made a general rule they would be most willing to shut up. Are there many in your parish that shut up ? — I believe they get worse every week. Why would they be glad that a law should be passed to compel 89 Parish Authorities. them to shut up their shops, if they found that by shutting up their shops they succeeded better? — They live in the market, they are surrounded by trade ; the confusion and disturbance in the neigh- bourhood is the same on a Sunday as on a pubUc market-day. They find other persons open their shops and serve their custo- mers, and then they think that their own customers will be offended if they do not ? — I do not exactly say that. Those who keep open on a Sunday are generally persons who sell a very inferior article, par- ticularly those who sell meat. As long as there is no law to prevent them from selling on Sun- days, will not some two or three opening in the neighbourhood have the effect of inducing others to follow their example ? — No, I think not ; there are some whom I have known for years who do not care who comes, and they will not open their shops. Is not the tendency of it to induce others to open who would not otherwise be willing to do so ? — I think so, in a general way. Mr. George Wilson, called in ; and examined. You reside in Westminster? — In Tothill Street. Have you ever filled any of the parish offices of St: Margaret's } — I have been overseer of the parish of St. Margaret for the last year. Then you have had the opportunity of seeing the state of your parish on Sunday mornings ? — Very particularly. Will you have the goodness to describe what scenes have been exhibited on the Sabbath morning in your parish .? — I would say that drunkenness, and riot, and debauchery on the Sabbath morning exceeded the whole aggregate of the week besides in Tothill Street, Broadway, Stratton Ground, and those low parts of Westminster. Much more than at any other period of the week ? — I should say it exceeded the whole week besides. Then people who assemble on Sunday morning do not assemble merely for the purpose of marketing? — No, not merely for that purpose : the streets are very much impeded by a number of per- sons making their purchases ) but the number is certainly greatly increased by drunken persons, male and female, who are turned out of the public-houses. It would be impossible for myself and my family to attend Mr. Mutter's church in the Broadway 3 I have attempted sometimes to take my family there ; I have six children, and it is not safe for their persons to approach his church, for at 11 in the morning the public-houses are discharged of their contents, and the great proportion of the people who come out of them are in a state of beastly intoxication ; mechanics, labourers,, prostitutes, and thieves, who are quarrelling, and some- times fighting, and talking in the most obscene manner ; and it is impossible to pass on the foot-pavement for the obstruction created by their number, in addition to the obscene language used, which is so disgusting, that it is painful even to pass with my wife, and cer- tainly I cannot permit my children or female servants to come in contact with the horrid scene ; and it ill fits the mind, even of my- \ Parish AutJiorities. 90 self, for those devotional feelings which are essential when we approach the house of God. Have you heard such complaints as you have now made, likewise made by the generality of the respectable inhabitants in your neighbourhood ?^I should say the feeling was universal. In order to let the respectable inhabitants approach St. Margaret's church, from the part in which I reside, we are obliged to take a circuitous road, to avoid the scenes which are witnessed in Tothill Street. Your last remark has reference chiefly to the bad arrangement of the public houses ; is there likewise a feeling in your neighbour- hood, or do you entertain a feeling that there should be an altera- tion as to the Sunday marketing? — Decidedly so, and we have used all the means in our power to procure an alteration in the state of trade in our neighbourhood : the great bulk of the respectable inhabitants associated together, to put a stop to it, and enforce the present law. We provided funds from our own pockets, and person- ally attended to the thing, but we found the present state of the law wholly inadeqitate to remedy it ; we found that many of the more flagitious offenders would pay their 5s., and offer to pay it weekly, to save themselves and us the trouble of summoning them. Of those who subscribed with a view to adopt measures to enforce the observance of the Sabbath, were many of them shopkeepers in that neighbourhood ? — The great bulk of them. Does not that show a strong desire on their part to put a stop to that practice, in which many of them now perhaps are induced to join ? — I do not think many have been induced to join in the practice since, who then were opposed to it : siibsequent to that attempt, the parish authorities (my father was at that time in office, but he is since dead) used all the means in their power, to put a stop to the horrid state of things on the Sabbath-day, but they were ineffectual ; they went round to the various gin-shops and public- houses, with the beadles, for the purpose of clearing them, but they were allowed to continvie open till 11 o'clock, and it was not a remedy to the evil felt at that part of the day : they memorialized the Secretary of State for the home department, who referred it to the Commissioners of Metropolitan Police. ('an you mention the date of that memorial ?— It was about July, 1831. What answer was received to that memorial? — We were referred to the Commissioners of the Metropolitan Police, who suggested that we should circulate hand-bills in the name of the parish, stating our intention to enforce penalties against those persons who served on the Sabbath. The police lent us every aid at that time j but we were foiled at the police-office, by a strong feeling on the part of the magistrates, I think, who conceived we were interfering with the poor. The magistrates of what office do you speak of ? — Of our district. Queen Square. It was stated at the time, that while the higher classes indulged in their dinner parties, and got the supplies neces- sary for them it was wrong to interfere with the poorer part of 91 Parish Aitlhorilies. the population ; it was a general feeling that we were prosecuting the poor/while the rich were suffered to escape with impunity. Then the magistrates declined to convict ? — Such was the impres- sion on our minds ; and as parish authorities, we did not feel that we should be acting properly, if we acted in opposition to the opinion they expressed ; we did not wish to act with partiality ; we wished to enforce the general observance of the Lord's-day. Did I you bring any cases before the magistrates of Queen Square ? — There were several persons brought before them. How were they dealt with? — I think they were generally dis- charged. Was evidence offered by you ? — Not by myself. By the parish authorities ? — By the police. And was it not received .'' — ^I really cannot tell ; I do not remember ; but they considered the decision at the police-oflice decisive, that they were at liberty in future, to serve on the Sabbath ; and since then, we have given up the matter in despair. Then this unwillingness on the part of the magistrates to convict, has greatly increased the difficulty, and the evil of which you com- plain? — Yes, in addition to the inadequacy of the fine ; but that would not apply to the public-houses, which are open in the early part of the day and are the grand source of evil. But they are in point of fact sanctioned by the law ? — Yes, they are. I would beg to state from the observation I have made, and particularly during the time I was in office, that the scenes of drunkenness appeared to me to commence from the period of the mechanic receiving his pay on the Saturday night ; he would frequent thepublic-hoxises on the Saturday night, and get a stimulus, and then he would wait for the opening of the public-houses on Sunday morning, when he completed his intoxication by church time, and then fall into the hands of prostitutes of the lowest class, by whom all these houses are filled ; he is taken by them to their haunts, where, if he has any property, the work of destruction is completed, and on Monday morning he is unfit to attend to his usual avocations, frequently gets discharged, and subsequently applies to the parish for relief. Are more of these people single than married men ? — I think more ; but they are very often married men. Would it be any hardship on the poorer classes if they were pro- hibited making a market on Sunday morning? — I think it would be a great advantage to them. How would that advantage arise } — From the circumstance that the labourer receives his money on the Saturday evening, perhaps not later than eight, with a number of his fellow- workmen ; he associates with them in the public house, and the stimulus which he first receives, leads to further excess ; he remains there till the house is closed at twelve o'clock on the Saturday evening ; he is certain of obtaining a supply for his family on Sunday morning with the scanty pittance he has left from his pay on the Saturday night, and therefore he does not go home to his family till midnight 5 but Parish Authorities. 92 if he was compelled to make his purchrses on the Saturday night, he would husband a part of those resoarces which are otherwise spent in the public-house. Then at present the "wives of such men have great difficulty in getting part of the wages for the use of their families ? — Certainly ; I have heard the poor creatures repeatedly complain. You think it is the desire of the wives of such men that the marketing should be made on Saturday night rather than Sunday morning ? — Certainly. Do you think the majority are so well disposed ? — The majority. The majority of the wives of the lower classes ? — Certainly. Do such habits on the part of the husbands frequenting public- houses tend to draw the wives likewise into habits of drinking ? — I think not, where they have families. I think that excess of drinking is more general with the male part. Then you are of opinion, that from the improper practices which now prevail on Sunday morning, the wives of such men are objects of much commiseration and should be protected? — I think so; the drunken females with whom the streets abound on Sunday morning are principally (nineteen-twentieths of them) prostitutes. So that it is necessary to make a wide distinction between the respectable wives of the labouring men, and the mere prostitutes who flock the streets on a Sunday morning? — Certainly. Such scenes as you have described at public-houses, have they not within your observation been particularly destructive to the morals of the younger members of the families of the poor ? — When I have been applied to, which has been very frequently, for parochial relief, by young persons, females, who have lost their characters, or who have become the mothers of illegitimate children, or common prosti- tutes, I have inquired frequently into the first cause of their ruin, and they have attributed it very generally to the associating with bad company, who have taken them to public-houses during those hours on the Sunday when they have been allowed to leave their services for recreation ; and the bad example of the company they have there met, added to the stimulus of drink, has led to their ruin. You have said that many of the respectable shopkeepers in yo\ir neighbourhood do actually abstain from carrying on their ordinary business on the Sabbath morning ; do they complain of the injury which they suffer in consequence of others who are less scrupulous carrying on their trade ? — Yes, and I believe the feeling is nearly general, that it would be an advantage to the traders universally if the whole were compelled to close on the Sunday^ they complain of the drudgery and hardship of working six days in the week ; and being compelled on the seventh to rise and serve their customers, which they are obliged to do in self-defence. Is it your opinion that if the law, with respect to there being no sale of goods on a Sunday, were strictly enforced, an equal quantity of goods would be sold during the six days in the week ? — I think so; the great hardship that has always struck me in the thing would be with respect to the butchers, who at this season of the year have 93 Parish Authorities. a quantity of meat left on Saturday night, and if they are unable to find a market for it on the Sunday morning it would be spoiled. Do you not conceive, if the practice were altered as to buying on a Sunday, the butchers would be able to regulate their matters so as to lessen any such difficulty? — I think decidedly so, for they are driven to the same difficulty on the Sunday morning, and have to get rid of the joints that would otherwise be left, by selling them at a reduced price, and that all tends to make the latter part of the morning (11 on the Sunday morning) the prime hour for the poor to make their cheapest purchases ; but the same policy would lead them to dispose of their joints on the Saturday night, and they would not be in a worse situation then on a Saturday night than on Sunday morning. Is it not a fact, that in addition to the meat that may be left on the Saturday night, they actually kill more meat on Sunday morn- ing, for Sunday morning's sale ? — They do frequently ; I have seen them killing myself at 12 o'clock on Saturday night, apparently for Sunday morning's market. Do yon not thiidc that if the market was forbidden on a Sunday, it would be kept open, as it is now, till 12 on a Saturday evening, and do you not think more money would be laid out on food and less on drink ? — Decidedly so. Therefore even the butchers would find it to their advantage, in having a greater quantity of meat purchased ? — Yes, I think so ; the public-houses would suffer and the butchers would gain, but the families of the poor would be indeed benefited. Do you conceive that it would be any inconvenience to the poor, being compelled to keep meat so purchased on the Saturday night, rather than buying it at the butcher's shop on the Sunday mornings I mean as to the preservation of the meat in good state ? — In my own family nothing is purchased on the Sabbath. I allude to the poor, who have very little accommodation, who have, perhaps, but a single room to live in ? — I should think cer- tainly not ; for all the more provident class of poor even now make their purchases on Saturday night. If the more provident part of the poor make their purchases on Saturday, and not on Sunday, is it your opinion meat is sold as cheap on Saturday as on Sunday ? — There is so much competition on Saturday that I think it is Is there a greater choice of meat, and a greater choice of shops to purchase it at on Saturday than on Sunday ? — Decidedly. Inasmuch as you have said that the more respectable tradesmen shut up their shops on a Sunday ? — Yes. Does that apply to butchers as well as other trades ? — I do not know ; I fear the butchers generally open on the Sunday. Then this defective state of the habits of the poor is actually in- jurious to the poor man himself, inasmuch as it injures his cha- racter, and is very often the means of getting him discharged from his master's service on the Monday morning ? — Decidedly so, and becoming a burthen to the parish. Parish Authorities. 94 And from your observation as a parish officer, you are inclined to think that the morals and characters of such men might be materially benefited by inducing them to spend the Sabbath-day properly ? — Yes. As you have given much attention to this subject, does any other observation occur to you to make to the Committee ? — I have not given much attention to the subject, for I was only applied to at 1 1 o'clock this morning. I think it would be highly desirable that public-houses should be closed on a Sunday, for they are the fruitful source of misery and crime, and every description of vice. Then you conceive no advantage would accrue to a poor man by keeping open shops of any description on a Sunday previous to the morning service ? — I think not. In the afternoon of the day, would you think it desirable to have shops of aiiy description open ?^Certainly not, except to supply them with beer for their siipper on the Sunday evening. Should you think it right to suffer any drinking on the premises at any time on Sunday ? — Certainly not, in the metropolis. With regard to the health of the poor, has it appeared to you that the families who attend to the Sunday as a day of rest and re- ligious observance, are generally in a more healthy state as to body, and in better circumstances generally, than the others who neglect that day I — Certainly ; those who indulge in excess are much worse off in point of bodily health than others who are regular and steady ; indeed, among the low class of prostitutes who fre- quent the street in which I reside, I have remarked that their whole number appeared to be swept away, with one or two trifling ex- ceptions, in the course of four years ; I do not think, out of perhaps about 200 of them, there are above four who have lived till this time. Their habits of intoxication have brought them to an early grave ? — Yes, I have seen public-houses discharge them on a Sunday morning, when, being unable to walk, they have been brought out and laid in the road. You have given it as your opinion, that a great proportion of the respectable shopkeepers of all kinds would think it a great relief to be able to avoid selling on a Sunday, and that they would also not suffer if other people did not sell ? — I think a very large proportion of those who keep open shop now, do so from necessity rather than from choice. Is it not your opinion that the large proportion even of the smallest shopkeepers would be relieved by a measure which should completely prevent the market from being held on the Sabbath- day ? — T am certain of the fact ; from my trade, as a grocer, I supply a great number of small shopkeepers, and the feeling of the whole of them is, that they would be relieved very much by closing their shops entirely on the Sabbath-day. You mean the whole of them have that feeling ? — Yes, the whole of them. Are you acquainted generally with the habits of the poor from 95 Parish Authorities. having served the ofTice of overseer of the poor or churchwarden in your district ? — Yes. Is it not usual with the poor on Sundays, who on other days are confined to work, to walk to considerable distances ? — I am not aware of it. I believe the local authorities in your parish published a placard or caution to the people previous to going to the magistrates, did they not ? — Yes. Have they published any more placards lately ? — I think not within the last twelvemonth ; thej' gave it up as hopeless. On what account ? — From our failure on fo^ mer occasions. Then it would be desirable for yourself and others with whom you are acquainted in your parish, if the Queen-square magistrates were induced to follow up more actively those cases which the parish authorities thought it their duty to bring before them ? — That would have been desirable ; if magistrates had convicted in those cases, it would have put some stop to the evil. If they had convicted in those cases, in all probability the parish authorities would not have relaxed in their exertions, but would have continued to prosecute such flagrant cases as occurred from time to time ? — When I was in oiRce we had every disposition to continue, but it was useless. The parish authorities have been deterred from doing it by want of success in cases they have brought before magistrates ? — Yes. Were those for selling provisions generally ? — For selling provi- sions generally. Are you of opinion, that if you fined a person 5."?. for selling pro- visions, it would be still to his interest to sell them ? — -Yes, I have often heard them say, " Here is 5s. ready for you, if you will order your man to call for it : " they do not care about the penalty when it is enforced. Then if the magistrates were ever so decided, at present you do not think the penalty would put a stop to it .'' — I think not. LONDON: Printed by Ellerlon ^ Henderson, Gough Sqxiare, FOR THE Sorif Ig for l^romotitig t^e tiue ©bserbance of tfje ilortiVlBaB ; AND SOLD By Messrs. Rivington, St. Paul's Church-yard and Waterloo Place; by Messrs. Seeley, Fleet Street ; by Messrs. Hatchaud, Piccadilly ; by Mr. Niseet, Berners Street; and at the above-named Society's Office, 12 Exeter Hall, Strand. Price 8d. each, or 6s. per dozen. At which places may be obtained the REPORT of the Select Committee of the House of Commons on the Lord's Day, price Id. or 6s. per hundred ; and also FURTHER SELECTIONS and EXTRACTS from the EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE GIVEN BY APSLEY PELLATT, Esq. A MEMBER OF THE COMMON COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF LONDON ; MESSRS. GEORGE AND M'KECHNEY AGENTS OF THE SABBATH PROTECTION SOCIETY, VARIOUS RETAIL TRADERS, NAMELY BAKERS, BUTCHERS, FISHMONGERS, &C. &C. AND PERSONS CONNECTED WITH THE PUBLIC MARKETS, BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed August 6, 1832. APSLEY PELLATT, Esq. called in ; and examined. Where do you reside? — Falcon Glass Works, near Blackfriars Bridge. What office do you hold in the city of London ? — I am one of the members of the Common Council. Did you lately take a good deal of interest in accomplishing the closing of the Farringdon market in the City ? — Yes. Have many of the renters of the Farringdon market complained of the orders of the corporation in closing the market on Sunday ? — A considerable number have complained. What has been the ground of their complaint ? — Because there are in the neighbourhood a number of shops in the same line as them- selves, and they are not closed. Then the objection is not so much to what has been done in the market, as to what has been omitted without the gates of the market ? — They have also an objection, that is, that meat would perish from not being sold on the Sunday morning; but there are others who state that these objections are not so well founded as they ought to be ; for if proper exertions on the part of the butchers and the fruiterers were made on the Saturday night, that would not happen. But their chief objection is that other shops are kept open, Far- ringdon market being closed, and therefore undue advantage is given to those persons out of the market, to the injury of themselves, who lire obliged, by the rules and regulations of the Farringdon market, to abstain from selling on Sunday ? — Clearly so. Have not the city authorities interfered to prevent those shops being open ? — No, they have not interfered ; they conceive that the law is open to any informer, and those that are friendly to the ob- servance of the Sabbath are so convinced of the utter impossibility of No. III. A A. Pellatt, Esq. 2 punishing violators of the Sabbath by the present laws, as to abandon the subject in hopelessness. How do you know that there are many of those shops open on the Sabbath-day ? — I do, personally. Do you think there is any desire on the part of the shopkeepers in that neighbourhood to have a law made sufficiently strong to apply to all, to keep all shops closed on that morning ? — I procured, with the assistance of a gentleman here, the signatures of about fifty re- spectable tradesmen in the neighbourhood, to have the market closed on the Sunday. Then you think in general, in that neighbourhood, that a law for bringing about that object would be considered not as an oppression, but as a benefit conferred on them ? — Quite as a relief. How did the corporation dispose of the petition to vv^hich you allude ? — The petition, to the best of my recollection, was referred to a committee. And what became of it ? — The committee reported against us, I think, by the signatures of about sixteen or seventeen, and there were but three dissentients ; therefore the majority of the committee were decidedly against us. Then did they report to the Common Council ? — That was reported to the Common Council, I think ; I moved an amendment. That that petition do lie upon the table, and that the Sunday market be hence- forward closed ; which I succeeded in carrying after three efforts : the two first failed, the third succeeded. Has there been any attempt to disturb the decision of the Common Council ? — One, which did not succeed ; but another has been made, and we shall have to fight that at the next court. Upon what ground has this hostility been brought forward ? — The alleged losses of the butchers and fruiterers, in consequence of closing the market on Sunday. And that in consequence of the greater trade of the neighbouring shopkeepers ? — Yes. Do you conceive that were the law made to apply to those in the neighbourhood of the market, these individuals might be induced to withdraw their opposition ? — I should conceive that in a great measure their opposition would then be groundless. Have they rested their opposition mainly on the ground of their own pecuniary loss, or on the inconvenience likely to be suffered by the community? — They have stated that also, but I think that self-interest is their chief motive. In your opinion, supposing that the shops were to be closed on the Sunday, and the markets, do you conceive that any inconvenience would arise to the lower classes from their not being able to procure subsistence for the Sunday ? — I should think none whatever. Do you not think quite the reverse; that butchers being obliged to sell on the Saturday for the Sunday, it would be a benefit to the lower classes generally ? — Perhaps I may illustrate this by stating a fact, that in a conversation with a fruiterer, he stated that the Saturday night's trade has been better since the Sunday market has been closed. 3 A. Peilatt, Esq. And if the Sunday trade was entirely put a stop to, that would be tlie case generally, you think ? — The difficulty would find its level. And since the Sunday market has been closed up, they have bought more on the Saturday ? — Yes. No inconvenience would, as the law became general, occur either to the purchaser or the seller ? — Certainly not. Do you mean to apply this answer to the meat market also ? — I should consider that the fruit in the soft season, as they term it, is the most perishable (that is, at this time of year ; such as ripe goose- berries and raspberries and strawberries, even more so than meat), and I know three of the largest renters in the Farringdon market, who are still anxious that the fruit and vegetable market should not be open on the Sunday, and do not consider their trade to be injured but rather benefited by such an arrangement ; but they did not trade on Sunday heretofore; they always refused to trade on the Sunday. Do you think that by the use of proper precautions, there would be any loss to the butchers, through their meat perishing, by the market being closed on the Sunday ? — I should think very little. Do you conceive that the poor would be put to an inconvenience, from not being able to keep their meat in a proper state through the Saturday night, on account of the want of accommodation in their houses? — I think occasionally they might. It has been suggested by butchers, before this Committee, that if the poor were to purchase their meat on a Saturday evening and half dress it, it might be kept as well in their houses as in the butchers' shops ? — That I agree to ; I was going to suggest it. Do you think that the poor have, ge.ierally, sufficient accommoda- tion at their own homes to half dress their meat? — That is rather a difficult question to answer ; in some cases they might not. A butcher stated to the Committee that he did not conceive that any actual inconvenience could occur above three or four days in the year, from the state of the weather ; is that your opinion ? — That is my opinion ; occasional loss might occur in excessively hot weather. And is it your opinion that if it was known to the community that the market could not be open on Sunday, it would be an inducement to the masters to pay their workmen at an earlier hour on Saturday morning? — I think so, decidedly. That not only it would induce the masters so to do, but that the workmen would take care that it was done ? — Certainly. In your neighbourhood, do any masters pay their workmen on the Friday ? — Mr. Hawes, the soap-boiler, I think informed me that he paid his men on a Friday, also Messrs. Home, the coal-merchants. Has that had the effect of making his men desist from work on Satur- day ? — I do not know what Mr. Hawes' experience is ; but Messrs. Home at first found some inconvenience, though not sufficient to induce them to discontinue the practice. Do you yourself pay part of your men on Friday ? — We have about 170 in our employment ; out of which we pay 70 on the Friday, or thereabouts, and we pay 50 on Saturday morning, and the other 50 by five or six o'clock on the Saturday evening. What effect does this produce upon the three classes of workmen A 2 A. Pellatt, Esq. 4 whom you have described ? — It has been so long our practice, that I am hardly able to speak to that; we have, however, suffered no incon- venience. The object of the question was this ; are the men who are paid upon Friday evening less sober on the Saturday than the other workmen in your employment ? — We seldom find any thing like inebriation on the Saturday; but occasionally on the Monday, most generally after a Sunday's debauch. Have you found that paying on the Friday has not upon the Satur- day an injurious effect upon the workmen ? — I have not found an in- jurious effect. Do you ever pay your piece labourers at a later hour on Saturday night than six o'clock ? — Never. Do you conceive that there is ample time for your men and their families providing themselves with whatever may be necessary for the Sunday consumption after they get payment of their wages on Satur- day night ? — If they are allowed to go home in good time. We give them relief at six o'clock on Saturday, though eight is our usual hour on other days. Is it the custom and practice for persons in your profession and other trades to keep persons at work till seven or eight at night on Saturday? — I think they are kept in some instances till eight; but it is the more general practice to pay them earlier. Is not Farringdon market the property of the corporation of the city of London ? — It is so. Therefore they have in that market the power of dealing with their tenants as they please, and obliging them to shut the market at any hour they please ? — Clearly so. And they have lately carried that into execution in regard to the Sabbath-day, as you have already stated ? — Yes. And unless the law be amended with respect to the Sunday trade, are you not of opinion that it must injure the people in the market ■? — It must injure the tenants of the corporation, or both ; the resolution I moved was coupled whh an allowance to the tenants, in the event of their suffering. It would injure the tenants in their rentings, and injure the corpo- ration by the diminution of the rent which would thence arise ? — Clearly so. From the attention you have given to the subject, you have stated to the Committee that although the law be open, it is in such a state that it cannot practically be executed to produce the result intended, namely, to induce people to shut up their shops ? — No, it cannot be done ; because the penalty is but 5s. a day for a hundred offences ; it is quite impossible that it should have the effect of putting down the rich tradesman; it might have the effect of putting down the poor, but that would not be equal justice. Supposing the law were altered so as to apply equally with facility to all shopkeej)ers, would not the tradesiien generally throughout the city of London, in that neighbourhood and all others, receive it as a boon ? — I think they would hail it as a benefit. In point of fact, supposing the law equally to apply to all, would not 5 A. Pella/t, Esq. the tradesmen generally as a body sell the same quantity of goods on the six days that they do now on the seven ? — They could suffer no loss whatever, and their servants would get the benefit, from not being obliged to be employed on the Sunday, without extra pay. I have ascertained from the fruiterers, that those employed on the Sunday in the market are not paid more for their week's work than if they did not work on the Sunday. Has it come to your knowledge that meat is killed on the Saturday night for the Sunday market ? — I have heard so, I do not know the fact. As to fruit, have you heard that fruit is brought into the market on the Saturday night for the Sunday? — I have been told by a wholesale fruiterer that the supply could be regulated to suit the alteration. You have already given some information as to the poor keeping the meat in their own houses ; do you not suppose that meat might be just as well kept by the poor in their own habitations, as it is kept killed in the butchers' shops ? — No; because a person has perhaps only one room, and consequently they sleep in the room where the meat is kept. That would not be injurious many days of the year ? — In very hot w eather. Might not an arrangement be made to put it out of the window ? — Perhaps extreme poverty would prevent that. Do you conceive an increase of penalty would be necessary, in as they now sell on Saturday evening and Sunday put together r — I do. Do you think the poor would have it in their power to make better bargains on Saturday evening than on Sunday morning 1 — Not necessarily so. Is it the fact that a butcher, in order to have fresh meat on Sun- day morning, kills his sheeiJ or his lamb after 12 o'clock at night.'' — They do generally in warm weather. Do you know whether any extra price is charged by butchers on Sunday morning ? — Sometimes in extremely hot weather, when the supply of meat is short, we have a higher price than our customary charge. Of what description are the persons who come to you at that time ? — Some of them are respectable persons, but a great propor- tion of the Sunday-morning customers are mechanics, and men who, generally speaking, are the most dissipated. The most industrious of them do now make their purchases some- times on the Saturday evening r — Some of them do. But you seem to think that they conceive they have an advantage in so doing ? — I do not know that it is a cjuestioir of advantage alto- gether ; some may do it from correct feeling, which is not entirely extinct in that class of persons. You mean, that it is not from pecuniary reasons, but that they have conscientious feelings which induce them to avoid purchasing on a Sunday ? — I think so ; it is a matter of opinion only. In such hot weather as you have spoken of, do you conceive that the poor would have a difficulty in keeping their meat if they pur- chased it on the previous night ? — It may occasionally happen when the weather was extremely hot ; but I think they might guard against that by making their purchases on Saturday, and dressing it immediately, which they might frequently do at a reduced price, so that they would save by it. So that the difficulty of keeping the meat might be obviated if a poor man partly cooks his meat on the previous evening ? — Entirely obviated. Is it not a fact, that the meat is subjected to injury now in butchers' shops from the quantity of gas which is burned there ? — Yes ; I have six of the large burners, and it makes the shop much warmer than it would otherwise be. Then you do not conceive that by compelling the poor man to make his purchases on Saturday evening, it would necessarily fol- low that he must eat meat in an unwholesome state on Sunday } — Not if he would have recourse to that expedient which I have before mentioned, a few times in the course of the year. It has been stated as an apology for Sunday markets, that the poor are usually paid either so late on Saturday evening or Sunday morning, as to make it impossible for them to make their market at any other time than Sunday ? — I do not believe that to be the fact ; the principal manufacturers in the neighbourhood where I 27" Master Butchers. live, and where there are a great number of men, pay them early on Saturday evening ; Messrs. Maudesley's men, for instance, are always paid by six o'clock, and a great number of these come to market on Sunday morning. How do they pass their Saturday evening? — In the public-houses. Does the habit prevail in your neighbourhood to pay workmen in the public-house ? — I cannot speak of that to my own knowledo-e • that they do associate there I know } but whether they arc paid there or not, I do not know. But after the men have been drinking all night in the public-house do they commence drinking again on Sunday morning ? — I conceive if Sunday business was put an end to, it would prevent a great deal of the intoxication which takes place on Sunday, and I account for it in this way : I have been a close observer of this question : when I began life, for three years I did not do anj'^ business whatever on a Sunday, nor had the evil then arrived at the state in which it is now ; but I found it increasing, and that not doing so, interfered so much with my returns, that I was compelled to have recourse to it in self-defence. The first Sunday that I opened my shop, my returns were more than equal to the average of the other six daj^s, and since that time I have continvied to do so ; but still I could not fail to remark the evil it was inflicting on the working classes. I conceive that habits of intemperance have very much increased amongst that class of people ; and I account for it in no other way than by their frequenting the public-houses after receiving their wages on a Saturday night ; consequently, on Sunday morning they find it necessary to make their purchases for dinner, &c. On their way to market they meet with some of their acquaintances, and as is customary with them when they meet, they go and drink to- gether ; and I conceive that a great portion of the wages which they earn is expended in drinking. During the period to which you have alluded, did j^ou at any time desist from dealing on a Sunday? — I desisted from last No- vember till the beginning of June, wiien I was compelled in self- defence to have recourse to it again. But what effect had it upon your trade during the time you dis- continued it ? — Not any for a few weeks, while many others kept their shops closed ; but since we relaxed in our exertions^ and the other shops opened, my trade suiFered by it. Then, in November, a general attempt was made in your neigh- bourhood to close on Sunday ? — In November or December, I am not quite sure which. How- far did that attempt succeed ; did many join in the desire to shut up their shops ? — A great nmnber signed a requisition to the churchwardens in the first instance ; and there was a body, I should apprehend, of about 40 of us who pursued the matter. What course did you pursue } — The churchwardens gave notice, stating that the law would be enforced after a certain time ; there was three weeks' notice given before the law was put in force. After those notices, the informations were laid against those who Master Butchers. 28 violated the law. They were summoned to Union Hall ; the greatest portion of them appeared to the summonses, but some few refused to appear : the majority paid the penalties which were imposed on them. This was repeated ; and those who were summoned the second time, finding that no further notice was taken of those who neg- lected to appear to their first summons, a great number of them refused to appear also ; and unfortunately, in about three weeks after the business had been taken up, the churchwarden gave notice that he would not allow any more informations to be laid in his name. The consequence was, it gave a certain party, who opposed us in this, a triumph. It was but a temporary one, however j for we jDrevailed on the churchwarden to re-consider the determination to which he had come, and he consented to proceed with the busi- ness again. The parties were again summoned, and the great ma- jority refused to appear ; they were summoned a second time, and they still neglected to appear. The cases were then heard in their absence, and convictions followed : an application was made for distress warrants to enforce the penalty. There is a law of Charles the Second which more particularly applies to butchers ; it imposes a penalty of 6s. 8d., but unfortunately it does not award costs against the defendant ; the consequence was, that the party laying the information would be put to the expense of 9s. 8d. to recover a penalty of 6s. Sd. There is another Act, I believe of Charles the Second's, which applies to exposing goods for sale, the penalty for the violation of which is 5s. with costs ; but it is necessary that the distress should be levied upon those goods actually exposed for sale ; and so far as the enforcement of the penalty goes, it is completely inoperative : for instance, if an article of food is exposed for sale on the Sunday morning, before the warrant can be granted that article is consumed. The Magistrates then appealed to us whether it would be wise, under all the circumstances of the case, to proceed any further in the matter ; and of course we considered it would not, as it would never answer to pay 9s. 8d. to recover 6s. 8d. ; and since that time all proceedings have been abandoned. In consequence of this ineffectual attempt made in Lambeth by the respectable traders in your neighbourhood, the practice has been resumed ? — Quite as much as ever. Yet there still remains the same desire on the part of the respect- able individuals to whom you have alluded, to obtain a stricter law, in order to preserve the Sabbath-day ? — There does. Had not a similar attempt been made by the Butchers' Company to do away with the sale of meat on a Sunday ? — Not by the But- chers' Company altogether, but by an association of butchers. Did they apply to the Butchers' Company for assistance ? — They did. And did they receive that assistance ? — They did. To the full extent required, and for any length of time.-" — I believe they did, as long as that association of butchers continued their exertions. And what success attended this association of butchers .'' — It 29 Master Du tellers. abated the evil for a time. I should likewise beg leave to observe, that one great reason why the different parishes have never been able to su])press it, has been the want of co-operation. If there was a legislative enactment passed which would come into operation universally, that objection would be entirely done away with. Some time since, the parish authorities of St. Margaret's applied to the parish authorities of Lambeth to co-operate with them in sup- pressing it, but there appeared a disinclination on the part of the authorities of Lambeth at that time. Was this previous to the attempt you have been speaking of? — Yes, five or six years ago. There was an application also by the parish of Christchurch, which was met in the same manner, since which we have requested Christchurch to co-operate with us, and they seemed to object on this ground : they said, " We asked you to co-operate with us, and yo\x refused, and when you wish to act, you come and ask us to co-operate with you ; make Lambeth as well-conducted as Christchurch is now, and we will co-operate with you." We are indeed far behind them. Then the continuance of the Sunday market proceeds not from the desire of the people engaged in it so to continue it, but rather from the want of a law to prevent it ; and it is the universal wish that there should be a law to that effect, so that all should be placed on a footing of equality ? — It is the wish of the majority ; I do not say the feeling is universal. But do you not think if such a law were passed, and such a practice were general, a greater number would be led to see that it was to their interest to abstain from selling on a Sunday ? — I do. The Butchers' Company failed, even though they possessed addi- tional powers to those given by the statute law ? — It is given by a bye-law, I apprehend. Which bye-law is limited to the Butchers' Company ? — Yes. Will you state why they failed in their attempt, and what deterred them from following up their attempt to put a stop to the practice to which you have alluded ? — Because persons who resisted the penalty put the Butchers' Company to considerable expense, and afterwards left their dwellings, so that the Company were unable to recover ; they were persons of no standing or consequence in the trade. It was the fear of similar occurrences that induced them to refuse their co-operation at this time. Then if greater facilities were afforded by law for recovering the penalties, the Butchers' Company might act more efficiently ? — That only applies to butchers. But you conceive the law is defective as regards recovering penalties ? — I should say there is virtually no law. And this defective state of the law has deterred those who are desirous to enforce the law, from carrying it into execution ? — Yes, coupled with the small amount of penalty : as the law now stands, I conceive, if I were so disposed, I could carry on my business on the Sabbath without there being any means of recovering penalties from me. Master ButcherR. 30 You mean to say, that the amount of costs incurred by the pro- secutor would so greatly exceed the amount of the penalty to which they could make you liable, that it is not at all likely that the law would be enforced to any extent ? — I think so ; I think it is suffi- cient security for me against an enforcement of the law. What is your opinion as to the persons who should be pointed out by the law as informers ? — I should hardly be willing to leave it to the parish authorities in all cases. Would you prefer the metropolitan police ? — I should prefer them to the parish authorities ; because persons get appointed to offices in the parish, not for their fitness altogether, but often from party feeling ; and I should say, they would sometimes throw every ob- stacle in their power in the way of proceedings of this kind. Are you of opinion that the superintendant of police would| make a proper informer, in the event of any change ? — Yes, I think he would ; but I should likewise rather have it left open to any other persons to lay the information, if they saw a violation of the law. Is the Committee to understand that it is your opinion that were there to be a change in the law, it should be made a part of the duty of the superintendant of the police to be an informer with regard to the breaches of the law, and that it should be still left open to the public also to be informers ? Yes. With respect to the remark you made as to the inefficiency of the parish officers, you are understood by the Committee to mean, that many of them being in the same class of life and in the same trade with the persons against whom it would be their duty to inform, a great inducement would be held out to them to be slack in their duty ? — My impression is, that it is placing a churchwarden in an invi- dious light with his fellow-parishioners, and I should rather avoid that if possible. In carrying on your trade of a butcher, what number of indivi- duals and of your family servants are occupied on Sunday? — Five men-servants and two sons. And you conceive that were the law changed to bring about a more strict observance of the Sabbath, without any diminution of profit, all the individuals whom you have mentioned might be kept free of that trade .'' — I do. Mr. William Wood, called in ,- and examined. Where do you reside ? — At Homer Street, Marylebone, and like- wise at Kelsall Green. What is your trade ? — A butcher. How long have you been in that business ? — I have been in it myself seventeen years. During any part of that time did you carry on your trade on Sundays ? — Yes. Do you continue to do so ? — No. 31 Master Butchers. How long have yoii discontinued ? — Three years, as near as I can tell you. Why have you discontinued ? — As a matter of conscience. Have you thereby sustained any loss ? — Yes, a good deal at this season of the year. Do the other butchers in your neighbourhood continue to sell } —Yes. Has it made any difference in your week-day customei's'? — Some who used to come on Saturday night have left it off, thinking I had got above serving them ; they said, " We cannot get any thing on Sunday now, we will go elsewhere." What class of people usually make their marketing on Sunday morning ? — Some of the working class of people, sometimes intoxi- cated peo^jle, and likewise in this season of the year some re- spectable people have come, for fear of having their meat bad on Sunday ; during the heat of the weather customers will send occasionally. But, generally speaking, through the year, the most respectable of the working class make their market on Saturday ? — Yes, in winter time very few come indeed, but in this season of the year there are a great many. Even in the winter time people of less provident habits put off their marketing till the Sunday morning ? — Yes ; I can state a few of the evils arising from that. In one case a woman came on the Saturday night, saying, " I should like to buy some meat, but my husband is over at that house, that is, the public-house ; he don't get paid, and I have been to ask him for some money ; he has told me to go along and to go home, for I could get the meat on Sunday morning." In some cases she has come on the Sunday and knocked at the door, and said, " I wish you would let me have a pound of meat, my husband has spent all my money, and I cannot get any thing." Sometimes they literally spend all at these houses, and sometimes we lose a customer altogether. Then you conceive the knowledge of the fact that the marketino- can be made on the Simday morning, makes the men more careless how they spend their Saturday evenings ? — Yes, they stop till a late hour and spend all their money. Another evil arising from it is, many masters do not pay them before Sunday morning. Do you think that is general ? — It is, among many where I am dwelling. I knov^^ a farmer who never pays them before Sunday morning ; I made that inquiry on Saturday. And do his work-people complain of that } — Yes, they do very much. What have you heard them say 'i — They have been to shop- keepers, and they have begged some things after the usual time to sell ; the usual time to shut up is 10 o'clock, but I am sorry to say about Kelsall Green they serve all day on Sunday completely 3 you can have any thing at any time, at any hour 3 the shutters are dovni, and they carry on the trade the same as on another day. Greengrocer. 32 Is it from want of property in the farmer you allude to, that he paid on Sunday morning ? — No. Does he make his payments at the public-house ? — No, at his own dwelling-house.' Have you been obliged to reduce the scale of your bvisiness in consequence of giving up selling on Sunday ? — Considerably; for this reason, many people have sold on Sunday, and have sold all theirs oiF ; mine on Monday did not look go well as theirs ; I killed less on Monday on that account, because I would not sell on Simday ; it hurts an individual. You conceive if the whole of the trade agreed not to sell on Sunday, they could manage their business so as not to suffer loss ? It would be a great deal better ; there is not one that I have spoken to that would not be desirous that it should be done away with. Do you think they would consider it a hardship to have the penalties increased ? — Not in our trade ; they wish it. If I had an article likely not to be good on Sunday or Monday morning, I should sacrifice any thing on the Saturday evening j if not, I should want the full value for it. Do you think that the men employed in the butchers' shops, as well as the butchers themselves, are desirous to have a day of rest ? — Yes, very much so. They consider it to be a hardship to work all day on Sunday ? — Yes, many of them are very envious at seeing our men, I have been in the habit of visiting the men on the canal, and inviting them to church, and delivering tracts. They say, " I wish you would make a law that we should have a day of rest as well as you." You think, from your own observation, that the men in other businesses as well as your trade of a butcher, are desirous of having the law altered to insure a day of rest } — Quite so ; it is the opinion of all I have asked, even those who do not regard the Sab- bath ; they feel desirous that labour should be done away with ; they say it is very hard they should not be like other trades, such as a mechanic. \_Mr. J. Rowland, of Munster Street, Regent's Park, tvas likewise examined, and gave similar testimony. 1 GREENGROCER. Mr. Samuel Smeeton, called in ; and examined. Where do you reside ? — 11, Paddington Street. What is your trade ? — Greengrocer. Do you do work on the Sunday ? — No. Do any of your trade work on that day ? — Many of them do j and I find myself a sufferer through not working on a Simday. Is there any wish in the trade to close their shops on the Sunday, if the rule applied alike to all ? — A general wish. 33 Greengrocer. Then they only keep open now because they are afraid of com- petition ? — Exactly. Did you at any time sell on the Sunday ? — Yes, eight or ten years ago. Then you suffered from closing your shop on the Sunday ? — Suffered very much by closing on the Sunday. Do you not do as much business during the week as you did be- fore ? — No. Have your customers disapproved of your closing? — The customers who are anxious to get goods on the Sunday have them from other tradesmen, and they do not have them on the week day from me, because they cannot have them on the Sunday. If the rule applied to all, do you think that the greengrocers could so manage their supply as to provide all that was necessary on the Saturday evening ? — I am quite certain of that. And that no inconvenience would arise to either the consumer or the seller ? — No. Is it not the fact that a great quantity of vegetables are gathered on the Saturday, with a view to the Sunday market ? — Yes ; but if business was suspended on the Sunday, those goods that are provided for the Sunday would be all sold out with ease on the Saturday. And in sufficient quantity for the Sunday use } — Quite sufficient. Do you think that a law which protected all alike would be con- sidered as a benefit by the generality of your trade ? — I am quite satisfied of it. Have you heard them so express themselves ? — I have heard them so express themselves. Do j^ou know of any supply of vegetables being obtained by the retail dealers from the gardeners on the Sunday? — Portm an market. New Church Street, is open till 11 o'clock on the Sunday. To what extent does the practice obtain ? — I cannot say to what extent : those that sell out on Saturday, and find themselves short of supply on Sunday, go and provide themselves there with fruit and vegetables. Is not that contrary to law^ ? — It is contrary to law, certainly ; but the law is broken in those circumstances. Do you consider this Portman market as a wholesale market ? — Yes 3 and they have recently advertised that they are open on the Sunday. From whom does that advertisement come ? — It appears to me to come from the clerk of the market, publishing the name of the persons who attend that market, that they will be there with the fruit and necessary things before the service, and after service they will be there the remaining part of the Sunday. Have you a copy of that advertisement ? — I have. [The witness delivered in the same, which was read as follows : " Portman Market, New Church Street, St. Marylebone : — The fruiterers, greengrocers and the public in general, are informed, that the principal growers who attend this market on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday in each No. III. c Poulterer. 34 week, will, during the season, furnish the same with a supply of strawberries, &c., on the Sundays, previous to and after Divine service. — June 22, 1832." What reason have you to think that that was put forward by the clerk of the market ?— It appears evident to me that this instrument came from him ; and I got it from the clerk's office in the market. Is it in the same form that the clerk is usually in the habit of putting forth his other notices ? — Exactly. By whom is that clerk appointed ? — It appears to me by the per- son that is building on the Portman property under Mr. Portman. Then Mr. Portman is not the builder of the market himself, is he ? — Mr. Portman has, I understand, nothing at all to do with the market, or with those notices : I have made particular inquiry into that. Who is the builder of the market ? — I do not know ; I have heard his name, but I forget it. In your opinion, from your experience in the trade, with regard to the poorer classes obtaining the supply of vegetables, would much inconvenience or would any inconvenience accrue to those classes from the greengrocers' shops being closed on the Sabbath- day ? — I am quite satisfied of the reverse. I am satisfied that those poor persons who now put off their marketing till Sunday are much worse supplied, and charged dearer for their goods on that day, because there are fewer shops open with the goods, and the trades- men can take more for the goods, and there is not that selection for them, because they have been picked over by those customers that come on the Saturday evening. Then it is your opinion, that the shops being open on the Sab- bath-day is an inconvenience in place of an advantage to the poorer classes ? — Qviite an injury to them. In so far as the goods are obtained at a dearer rate, and as there is less opportunity of selection } — I am quite satisfied of that. From the hours during which the people are generally employed in your trade on the Sunday, are they prevented attending Divine worship ? — It is impossible for them to go, because they keep open till just at 10, and it is impossible for a servant after that to get himself in order and go to a place of worship at all. But from your own experience they are desirous of having it in their power ? — Quite desirous ; I am sure it would be a benefit to ^11 parties. POULTERER. Mr. William Jolly, called in ; and examined. Where do you reside ? — No. 7, Charing Cross. What is your business .-' — Poulterer. Do you do business on Sunday .? — Yes, I do. Do you conceive that it is necessary that you should continue to do business on Sunday ? — Not necessary ; I wish it was done with- 35 Poulterer. ■ out, or at least in a certain time of the day ; we have occasion to be there a great part of the day, till eight o'clock in the Sunday evening frequently. Do you receive any part of your orders for your Sunday supply from your customers on Saturday ? — At times ; but there are times of very hot weather that we cannot attend to those orders on Sa- turday, because the article that we are obliged to supply we must keep at home ourselves, to see that it is good for use. Do you receive all your orders on Saturday for the supply of Sunday ? — Not wholly. Is it your desire that the orders should be as much as possible given on Saturday ? — Certainly ; it would be very beneficial to us. What class of the community do you principally supply on Sun- day ? — I may say all the great men ; the Members of both Houses, and Members of the Administration likewise. Are they chiefly of the wealthy classes whom you supply ? — Yes. In what proportion could you state ? — That I cannot tell, for I have not an idea. There was a petition to Parliament, desiring to have the Sunday trading done away with as much as possible, lately signed by the fishmongers and poulterers ; were you a party to that petition ? — I signed it. And it is your desire to have the Sunday business as much as possible put a stop to ? — Certainly. How many men do you employ in your house on the Sunday ? — Three or four regularly ; they are kept all the year. The same on Sundays as on any other day ? — The same as on any other day. Do they receive additional wages for working on the Sunday ? — No, there is an understanding when they come ; it is an under- standing through the trade. Then if the Sunday trading were given up, your men would re- ceive as much on the six days as they do on the seven ? — Just so. Do your men complain of the present practice ? — No ; I never hear of any complaint ; it has been for so many j-ears, that they understand when they take the duty that they are to work on Sunday. Do you conceive it has an injurious eflfect upon your men, thus being prevented attending a, place of public worship ? — I should think not ; I cannot say that I have observed it ; I should think there are two or three of them that attend of the evening j we re- duce them of the evening ; there is always one of them at home all day J after dinner and tea time we allow them to go. You state that you have no objection to the doing away of the Sunday business, other than during the hot weather .? — In the hot weather it would be very injurious to do it away ; because these things, if they were not taken care of by us, would not be good for use. That is on account of your customers not having sufficient larders c 2 Poulterer. 36 at home to preserve the poultry ? — Yes ; and not understanding how to take care of it. But if your customers had larders, and careful servants, they might do the same as you do ? — Yes. This objection can only refer to a very few days of the year ? — Very few ; of course it lessens our business on the Sunday, because we get away as much as we can on the Saturday. Do you receive orders on the Saturday ? — Sunday morning and Saturday. At present your trade is carried on not only during the hot weather but during the cold weather ? — Yes, while the Houses sit ; we frequently do not get our orders till Sunday morning, on account of the butlers not being able to give the bill of fare to their masters till Sunday, therefore we cannot get our orders till Sunday. Do you conceive that this habit of giving orders on Sunday has increased or decreased within your experience ? — I should say that it has decreased ; I can remember going to a gentleman of rank twelve times myself on one Sunday while he was in my neighbour- hood, the difficulty of getting the article that w^as ordered occa- sioned perhaps three or four more times going backward and for- ward. What part of the Sabbath is generally occupied by your calling ? — The whole day 5 we begin at seven o'clock on the Sunday morn- ing, and we continue in business till two, and then orders come till six or seven. So that it is quite an understood thing that those who form a part of your establishment must consent, in entering upon the duties of their engagement, to forego church morning and after- noon ? — Decidedly so ; at any rate two of the parties must be there, one to take the article, and the other to mind the house. Do you conceive that any general understanding in the trade could be agreed upon, independently of legislation, to stop Sunday trafficking ?— I think it could not be depended on. For the reason perhaps that some would agree to it and some would not ? — They would all agree ; but many would act in an un- derhanded way to get a customer ; I say I would not serve, and because I will not serve another will, for the sake of getting a customer. That would be considered an interference with the rights and in- terests of the others ? — Certainly. They would of course object to that, and refuse any longer to conform to the understanding r — Certainly, it would break again ; they would say directly, he has taken my customer. So that the temptation of interest has quite gained an ascendancy over the respect for the Sabbath ? — Decidedly. Do you conceive that if a poulterer were to refuse to serve cus- tomers on Sunday, he would lose many customers ? — Certainly, because it is not the gentlemen that we have to do with, but the servants ; and they say, if you do not attend to me to day, you shall not to-morrow. 37 Hair-dresser. Has the servant the absolute regulation of the trade connected with the large establishments, so far as to employ one person and reject another at pleasure ? — With the greater part of the nobility of London. So that it is the servants that you have to settle your accounts with ? — Yes, we are dependent ujjon them completely. From what you have observed of the moral habits of the persons engaged in your own branch of trade, do you think that there are many of the servants in the habit of going to church in the even- ing ? — I cannot answer for more than my own ; my own young men have been with me for many years ; one has been 17 years, and I think I can answer for him that he goes very regularly. Do you ever procure poultry on the Sunday in Leadenhall market, or any other wholesale market ? — No. Does that arise from the impossibility of getting it on that day ? — Owing to their being closed ) it is an understanding that no bu- siness is carried on at the markets. I believe many of the persons have only shops at the market, and no shops to live in ? therefore on the Saturday night, when they close, they go to their dwellings, and open their shops again on the Monday. HAIR-DRESSER. Mr. Henry Cornish, called in ; and examined. Where do you reside ? — At No. ^0, New Street, Dorset Square. What is your business, and how long have you been in that line ? — I am a hair-dresser, and I have been so about seven years ; I am also secretary to the Sunday-school Union, and was for some time secretary to the St. Mary, Paddington, Association for the better Observance of the Sabbath ; and I am also secretary to the St. Mary Association for supplying the poor in winter with potatoes. Have you been in the habit of carrying on the business of your profession on the Sunday ? — -The person of whom I purchased my present business did openj I never have opened. Do you conceive your business has been less in consequence of not opening } — At the first I lost nearly the whole of my business through closing ; I then had some property which backed me for a short time, together with some friends ; my business is improving to what it was. Why did you lose your business in the first instance? — The busi- ness my predecessor did was chiefly on Saturday and Sunday ; the greater amount of business was done on those two days. I then closed my shop on Sunday morning, and it has often been the case, we have watche'd 30, 40, and .50 customers go away, finding the door closed ; I have lost the whole of that class. What was the class you lost .'' — The lower class ; the reason was, another hair-dresser, four doors from me, opened a shop there ; he took the lower class, and then he kept that open for perhaps 12 Hair -dresser. 38 months ; he then opened a place at the back of his own house, so that he gave up the other and took them to his own house. The better class are not so much in the habit of requiring a hair- dresser on Sunday, generally speaking ? — Many of them are much in the habit of requiring a hair-dresser on Sunday. Have many that formerly required it on Sunday, arranged it so as to take you on Saturday ; are they a different set of customers ? — I am often now obliged to refuse to attend a customer on a Sun- day ; sometimes I lose them, sometimes I do not. With respect to the working class, who are much occupied during the week, do you conceive it necessary there should be hair- dressers' shops open for their use at a certain hour ? — Certainly not ; the rule of my business at present is, if I attend a customer on Sunday, I attend him regularly through every day in the week ; but the number of persons requiring that are very few, and cer- tainly not of the poorer class, so that it would have no effect on the poor. Supposing that many in your trade were to act conscientiously, and decline to work on a Sunday, how would the poor get the re- quired work done ? — The poor certainly could not be injured, for this reason ; very few of the poor are shaved (for that is what they have done on Sunday) ; there are very few of them shaved more than twice or three times a week, consequently it would be as well done on the Saturday as on the Sunday. Is it a fact that such of the poor as are conscientious have got themselves shaved on Saturday evening ? — Invariably. After their work is done ? — Yes. You conceive a poor man might as well get himself shaved on a Saturday evening as go to the gin-shop and spend his wages ? — He had much better be shaved on Saturday night, of course. Do you think it is a general wish in the trade to which you be- long that the law should be so altered as to insure the shops being closed on Sunday morning ? — Some years ago I worked for Mr. Vicary, of Tavistock Street, who was the first hair-dresser and wig- maker in London ; he at a previous time employed 26 men ; his men solicited to be allowed to leave off work either altogether on Sunday, or at least in sufficient time to be out of the streets before the per- sons came from church. He said, " No, I have engaged you to such an hour, (one, and half-past one,) I shall not allow you to leave." The men immediately entered into a combination, the whole of the 26, and on a Saturday night the first one came in and said, " Will you allow us to leave off at 12 to-morrow?" he said, " No ; " he went back and informed the rest of the men ; the next came, and so on down to the last man, and they declared not one would enter the shop the next morning ; they had previously made arrangements, and the society exists in Chancery Lane which they formed, and sent a hand-bill to the trade, and every respectable man struck on this condition for not working on Sunday, and they supported each other for many months. The principal shops in Bond Street are kept by the masters who were at that time journey- 39 Fishmongers. men ; they still keep their shops closed ; it was a proof of the body of men wishing to get rid of that part of the business. What is your opinion as to the lower walks of your profession, ■whether it is not the desire of the men in the lower walks of your trade to have the law so altered as to enable them to observe the Sunday as a day of rest, or whether they think their trade would be injured by such an arrangement ?— I am not sure that 1 could answer that question, not being much acquainted with the lower class ; certainly, I am of opinion it could not be a hindrance to the trade nor an injury to the poor. In your own experience, your trade is increased and improved since you abstained ? — -Double ; I never did any business myself on the Sunday. You have doubled what your predecessor did in the same hoiise ? — Yes J I must qualify that answer, it is an exception, such as wish to be attended at their own houses, and do not wish to interfere with the public hours, FISHMONGERS. i Mr. Joseph Bartholomew, called in ; and examined. You reside at Charing Cross ? — I do, at Mr. Groves', the fish- monger. What is your business ? — That of a fishmonger. Are you in the habit of carrying on your business upon the Sunday? — I am. Can you, under the present laws, with a view to preventing the profanation of the Lord's-day, suspend your ordinary occupation or calling without loss ? — No. How does that loss arise ? — Were we to refuse serving customers on the Sunday, the consequence would be that many other com- petitors, who have no objection to sell fish on the Sunday, would supply our customers on the other days. What are the consequences to you, and the servants, of the pre- sent imperfect state of the law ? — The result of it is, that neither masters nor servants have facilities or time afforded them to attend a place of worship, those who are so disposed ; and I may say, that from the incessant labour and the number of hours that are occu- pied throughout the year, it affords very little time either for moral improvement or education, or attending religious worship. What number of persons are usually employed in your business during Sunday? — I think about nine or ten. How many hours in that day are they employed, on the Sunday ? — At our establishment we do less business on the Sunday than almost any other fishmonger at the west end of the town ; that arises from a disposition on the part of Mr. Groves, who is the pro- prietor of the shop of which I am clerk, that there shall be as little business done on Sunday as can be helped ; but it happens, that from the manner in which we do business on the Saturday, we get Fishmongers. 40 in as many orders as we possibly can, and on the morning of the Sunday we send in such articles as have been ordered on the Saturday. The men 'come about half past seven o'clock on the Sunday morning, and the articles are delivered and the morning's work completed probably about nine or ten in the morning ; but notwithstanding we manage in this way, we find customers coming constantly throughout the day, frequently till seven or eight o'clock in the evening ; and although the greater part of the servants are sent home, there is always, particularly at this time of the year, while the Houses of Parliament are sitting, from two to four, some- times more, persons in attendance during the after part of the day j but in the morning all the men are present. The consequence is, that there is very little time afforded with us, but more than any other shop at this end of the town ; in most other shops masters and men are wholly employed during the day, and more so on the Sunday, because many noblemen and gentlemen who are Members of Parliament have more company on Saturday and Sunday, those being the only leisure days their parliamentary duties afford them, consequently there is more done on those days than on others. Have you requested customers to take fish home on Saturday evening ? — Not very frequently. How much later may you be employed on Saturday evenings than on other week-day evenings ? — We are generally later on the Saturday, we have more to do on the Saturday in preparing the fish to be sent out on Sunday morning. When may you shut up on the Saturday night ? — We seldom close till 10 o'clock, but frequently the business is not finished till after 11. Business is completely closed before 12 ? — Yes. Do the servants complain of being employed on the Sunday ? — It is the general complaint throughout the trade. Both of master and servants 1 — Yes. Has it an injurious effect upon the servants ? — I conceive it has. Does not your business consist entirely of furnishing the wealthy with fish ? — Principally so. Where do you get your supplies of fish from on the Sunday morning ? — On the Saturday we get our stipplies. Do you know in the fish trade if there is any wholesale trafficking on the Sabbath-day ?— There is occasionally, I have every reason to believe ; indeed there is an Act of Parliament which especially allows a sale of mackarel on the Sunday, which gives an opportunity for the sale of other fish. Do you think the sale of mackarel is necessary on the Sunday ? — By no means. Do you think it would be desirable that the customers should supply themselves on the Saturday evening "^ — I think it is desirable that they should give their orders on Saturday night, and then the articles could be sent on the Sunday morning, because the cus- tomers have not the conveniences to keep the fish in a state fit for use on the Sunday. 41 Fishmongers. But you think it would be possible, if the orders were given on the Saturday night, tliat the delivery should be made in sufficient time on Sunday morning to permit the servants and yourself to go to church ? — I have no doubt of it. But, generally speaking, you are obliged to make many deliveries just before dinner time ? — We make a great many deliveries the first thing in the morning as well as afterwards. Your customers being all wealthy, could not they in their own houses have the requisite accommodation for keeping fish from Saturday night to Sunday r — I dare say they could, but they do not ; and if there were conveniences of that sort, I fear the ser- vants would neglect to take the necessary care that is required. But you conceive that if the delivery were still to be permitted on the Sunda}^ the servants of customers might contrive without any inconvenience to obtain the article so early on the morning, that you and the men might be set at liberty, and be able to attend Divine service ? — Decidedly so. What alteration of the law do you think it would be necessary to make to bring about such a change in the habits of your busi- ness as you describe ? — I am induced to think, if the law was altered so that we should only deliver our articles on the Sunday morning, the consumer would have no cause to complain, neither would the seller, because we are conscious that our articles being of a perishable nature, it would be exceedingly de&irable, not only in very hot weather, but in the months of October and November, when there is a great deal of damp, close weather, that the articles should be kept until the Sunday morning. We wish for a restric- tion of the delivery after nine o'clock on the Sunday morning, but not that the delivery should be altogether prevented. Do not your wealthy customers apply late for fish on the Sunday evening, without previous notice ? — They do, as late as six or seven o'clock in the evening. What penalty do you think would protect the conscientious dealer from the rivalry of the less conscientious, who might be tempted to step in and take his business ? — Five pounds upon each offence. Do you mean 5/. each day, or 5/. for each offence in each day ? — I should think 5/. upon each offence in each day. Do you think it desirable that the trade should be protected against unconscientious men being able to sell, by such a penalty ? — I do, after nine o'clock in the morning. Supposing that the law were to be made such as you describe, the fishmongers having power to deliver the articles which have been sold on the previous Saturday evening, would it not be a very diffi- cult matter to bring a proof against a dealer selling ; how could an individual distinguish between the act of selling to a customer who had a running account, and that of delivering to a customer who merely sent to get the fish delivered ? — I am not prepared to say how that might be prevented in the morning, during the time allowed for delivering the fish ; but if a person applies after the limited hours, it must be for a purchase. Fishmongers. 42 Can you suggest any means by which the informer could dis- tinguish in the case which has been already stated ? — I fear not, without the concurrence of the seller. Supposing that the servants of any one of those wealthy cus- tomers of your's should be seen entering your premises on the Sunday morning, would it not afford an inference that that servant was coming with an order to you for fish ? — Probably he might be sent to fetch the fish purchased on the Saturday; sometimes it happens that fish is purchased on the Saturday evening, a gentle- man going out of town and wishes to take it with him, and either calls or sends his servant for it, and therefore 5'ou could not per- haps distinguish. According to the present habits of the trade, is the delivery usually made by your servants at the residence of the customers, or does the customer send his servant ? — We always send for orders, as well as orders are brought to the shop, and the fish is mostly sent to the house of the consumer by the tradesman. Might it not be a sufficient distinction that the customer should not send his servant, but that the fishmonger in every case should send his servant ; would that give much additional work to your people ? — If it was given in the over evening it would make very little difference, but if that distinction was made on the Sunday morning it would give occasion to a collusive understanding which I do not perceive could be prevented. Is it not the fact that in most parts of the town the Sunday cus- tomer of the fishmonger is a man so wealthy that he could afford to have in his own house the requisite accommodation to keep the fish from Saturday to Sunday ?= — I have no doubt of that. People in a lower class of life do not usually purchase fish on the Sunday ? — I do not think they do, at least not in any quantity worth mentioning. During certain seasons of the year, do you carry on a greater trade on the Sunday than on any other day of the week ?— More on Saturday and Sunday : there is always more business done then than on any other days of the week, especially during the sitting of Parliament. Have you had an opportunity of conversing with many indivi- duals in your business who have expressed a wish that a limit should be put to business on the Sabbath ? — ^Yes, I have had an opportunity of holding many conversations, both with persons con- nected with our trade and the various trades which are connected also with Sunday trading. I was a member of a society for a con- siderable time, which took a great deal of pains to devise some means by which this might be prevented. I had, from that circum- stance, an opportunity of becoming acquainted with the opinions of a great number of persons, and I am satisfied that the great ma- jority who are in the habit of trading on the Sunday would be desirous of an alteration of the law to the effect to which I have before alluded. Do you think that the general wish is that they should close at 43 Fishmongers. nine o'clock in the morning ? — In all trades connected with perish- able articles, so far as regards the sending out of the goods. But supposing that the customers could be induced to provide the requisite accommodations in their own houses, and thus supply themselves on Saturday night with fish, do you think their doing so would be agreeable to the trade in general ? — I do not think so. I conceive the majority of the trade would suffer from the negli- gence of the servants of the customers, frequently from the want of proper scouring and cleansing of the place, and various other little requisites that would not be attended to by the servants ; the trader would therefore suifer, and the customers would not find, their goods so good as they would wish to have them. Then the fault would be with the customer himself, for not having a sufficiently careful servant ? — Yes. I think it impossible to obtain servants that would take such care, besides having their usual duties to perform. Do you think, in the case of fish being taken home by a wealthy individual on the Saturday night, and found not to be in a very fit condition for use on the Sunday, that any reflection would arise against the character of the fishmonger, who on every other day of the week usually supplied a good article which might never be found, fault with ? — There would be remarks of that description^ and have been, I certainly do not mean to say that any fish sent out on the Saturday would not be good on the Sunday, by no means. Fish- mongers are in the habit of sending a number of articles into the country, which we take especial care shall be so very fresh and lively as to be very good on the day required, and the servants being apprised of it, would generally take greater care. But if it was a general rule among the whole trade to supply their articles on the Saturday for Sunday, instead of the trouble to customers' servants being, as in the former case, occasional, great inattention would arise on the part of the servants of the customers if it be- came a general practice, neither would families in general go to the expense, nor probably would they have convenience where they could form places adapted to keeping perishable articles ; I there- fore am decidedly of opinion, that in fishmongers', as well as other trades, it would be found impracticable, unless the articles were sent in on the Sunday morning. Do you think that in such a case as you have alluded to, from the negligence of servants, there would be a risk of the fishmonger being found fault with by the customer ; do you think that there could be a reasonable fault found by the customer with the fish that might not be so good on the Sunday, while on every other day of the week his fish was invariably good?— I should think there would ; if there was any negligence on the part of the servants, it would most probably be laid to the fault of the fishmonger. But do you think that this would be a fair mode of proceeding towards the fishmonger ? — Certainly not ; but we very frequently have occasion to remark at present, that if there is any mistake or inattention in the cooking of the fish, it is generally said to be the fault of the fish. Fishmongers. 44 Then you are liable at present to fault being found with persons in your trade in other respects than with regard to the keeping of the fish ?— Yes. Do you think that if there should be such a change of the law as that the sale and delivery of fish should be prohibited entirely on the Sabbath-day, great inconvenience would arise both to the cus- tomers and fishmongers ? — I do think so. With regard to profit, do you conceive that there would be any diminution by such an alteration as you have yourself recom- mended } — No, I do not conceive there would. I am disposed to think that customers would order their articles on the Saturday, when they found' that the law was imperative, and that it would make no decrease in the trade ; perhaps otherwise. Then the practices at present existing are contrary to the wishes of the trade, and only made necessary by the habits of the cus- tomers ? — Exactly so, and competition amongst unprincipled indi- viduals. There are some persons in our trade who open their shops on the Sunday with the express view of drawing customers away from those who are known to have conscientious scruples on the subject. What do you mean by the expression, " perhaps otherwise," in regard to the trade being injured by there being no Sunday traffic ? — I think customers would provide on the Saturday more than they do at present, because they would be aware, under the altered state of the law, that fish could not be procured. Even if there were a loss, I apprehend the trade would willingly abide by it for the sake of the advantage the relief of that day would afford them. Have you at any time remonstrated with your customers on the present practice ? — Yes, we have ; and on one occasion in particular the custom was withdrawn in consequence of refusing to send for orders on the Sunday morning, and on writing on the subject, and stating that it arose from conscientious scruples, and from an un- willingness to keep the whole of the men employed during the Sunday, the reply was, " You shall not lose the custom on account of the scruples you have 3 " and the custom was for some time continued, but eventually withdrawn, I believe solely because they could be supplied more readily elsewhere on the Sunday. Num- berless instances of the kind have occurred to us. During the period to which you allude in your last answer, at what hour on the Sunday did you supply the customer ? — They required us to send in the morning for orders about ten or eleven o'clock, and frequently later. We are compelled even now to send to several customers as late as twelve or one o'clock. Do you conceive that the present objection on the part of your customers arises from the wish of the master or from the careless- ness of the servant in not sending for the article until the last hour ? — I am disposed to think that it arises from both causes j probably the master would omit to acquaint his servants that he had invited company until the morning ; in some cases I am aware that the servants do not inquire what fish, &c. may be wanted, knowing 45 Fishmongers. they can be supplied at any time. I should observe in this part of the business, that while the greater part of the other fishmongers make a constant rule of sending for orders on the Sunday morning, we, who always ask for our orders on the Saturday, obtain at least two thirds of the orders on the Saturday for the Sunday. By which means the work of the Sunday is considerably dimi- nished ? — Considerably so ; while other parts of the trade have the whole of their men emp loyed, we have only a portion, perhaps a third, employed the whole day. Then, generally speaking, you have not found an unwillingness on the part of your customers to give you that kind of assistance, but that it arises from inattention ? — Yes ; we have only a few that do not give orders on the Saturday, besides those that send their orders to us. Do you apply to the master or to the servant for your orders ? We generally apply to the upper servant, who takes the bill of fare to the master or mistress. Have you, in the cases where you have been refused, made an application to the master or gentleman of the house ? — Sometimes we have. And in that case has it been complied with ? — Not very frequently ; the answer has sometimes been given that they do not know that they will dine at home, or whether any one will dine with them that is the answer we generally have, and this compels the men to call again for the order. In regard to any such remonstrances made by you and intended by you to be made to the master or mistress, are you sure that those remonstrances ever got beyond the upper servant ? — Some- times they have been made to the gentleman himself. Did you use particular precautions that they should find their way to the master or mistress of the establishment .? — Not always, probably ; if we were to be so very rigid on many occasions we should create a great many enemies among the servants. Do you recollect a petition having been presented some years ago by the fishmongers to the House of Commons, petitioning the House for some alteration of the law for the due observance of the Sab- bath, with respect to the sale of fish ? — I do. Were you a party to that petition ? — Yes. By what number of fishmongers was that petition signed ? — It was only the petition of the masters and some other trades that were connected with Sunday trading. Do you recollect by what number of master fishmongers it was signed ? — I should think it comprised about three parts of the fish- mongers' trade in London. Do you think that that opinion still prevails among the fishmong- ers of London ? — I am of opinion that the feeling in favour of an alteration of the law has increased, for there are many who were then averse to it, and who are now desirous that it should take place. Are you in the habit of buying from the wholesale dealer on the Sunday ? — No. Fishmongers. 46 Are any in your trade in the habit of so buying ? — Yes. Do you conceive they would be put to any inconvenience were the law so altered as to make it imperative to buy on the Saturday ? —No. Where are the wholesale dealers to be found in general ? — At Bil- lingsgate Market 5 and as the Act of the 10 and 11 pf Will. 3, c. 24, allows the sale of mackarel on the Sunday, many fishmongers go on the Sunday morning to purchase mackarel ; and if they are in want of any other fish, they can procure it, if any of the kind is at the market. But according to the present state of the law they are not per- mitted, are they, to purchase any other fish but mackarel ? — No. But the opportunity being afforded of buying mackarel, other fish are bought ? — It is the pretext 3 the mackarel being protected, the fishmongers buy other fish. Where do the fishmongers buy the fish ? — At Billingsgate Market. Do not the city authorities attempt to keep the Billingsgate Mar- ket closed for all purposes except mackarel ? — They do ; but I be- lieve their regulations in that respect are not very effective ; it is not openly suffered to be done. There was a petition, signed by the Alderman of Billingsgate Ward and the Common Councilmen, and most of the salesmen, to repeal that Act, which was placed in the hands of Alderman Wood, and intended to be presented to the House of Commons. Whether it was or not I do not know, but they re- quested in the petition, that the sale of mackarel on the Sunday should be abolished ; and they gave their reason for making that request, which was this : because the mackarel coming from the coast of Sussex, formerly took from two to three days in arriving at Billingsgate, whereas they are now brought up in four or five hours, so that the necessity which then existed for their immediate sale does not exist now. Have not the wholesale dealers a great deal in their power with regard to bringing the supply of fish up the river, so that it might be so regulated that there would be no objection to there being no supply of the wholesale market on the Sunday ? — I believe they can ; but I cannot give an opinion on that point further than I find they are desirous the market should be abolished altogether. With respect to the penalty, should you recommend the penalty to attach to the purchaser as well as the seller ?^ — 1 should have no objection to it. Do you think it would produce any effect ? — I am disposed to think it would, but with regard to any body of tradesmen applying for such an enactment, I think it is objectionable ; but if the Legis- lature thought proper to do so, I should feel that it would be a very great advantage. Do you think that it would have a tendency to prevent the pur- chasing of fish on Sunday ? — Yes ; I think it would have a bene- ficial effect. Do you think that this habit on the part of the rich, of pur- chasing fish on the Sunday, has an injurious effect upon dealers in 47 Fishmongers. a lower class of life ; does it encourage them to sell, and does it encourage others to buy on the Sunday, having those examples before their eyes ? — Yes ; I have met with instances where the lower classes have said^ " The greater ones do it, and why should we not do it? " Do they allude to the greater dealers or greater customers ? — Customers } the nobility and gentry. Have you been to Billingsgate Market occasionally on Sunday ? — ^Yes, I went twice. Are there any other articles sold there in consequence of the fish market being open? — Yes, there are occasionally, I have every reason to believe. Any fish that they may happen to have in the way are sold to persons who may wish to have them. The question alludes to other articles besides fish ? — I am not aware of that being the case in Billingsgate. Are there many gin-shops open on Sunday in Billingsgate ? — Yes, plenty of them. And beer- shops ? — Yes, I believe there are. Mr. William Donovan, called in; and examined. Do you think that a moderate penalty which has been stated, on any change of the law in regard to the sale of fish, such as a penalty of 51., would be sufficient, in order to protect the trade against the sale of fish on the Sabbath-day ? — I think it would. Are there any persons in your trade that refuse at present to sell on the Sabbath ? — I believe not at the west end of the town. Are you acquainted with any in any part of the town that refuse to sell fish on the Lord's-day ? — I think I know of one person that does not sell on the Sabbath ; I do not know one in the west end. What is the name of that person ? — Kennit, I think it is. Do you know whether he, in consequence of refusing to sell on the Sabbath, is a sufferer in his trade or not ? — I cannot say, he does not do a great deal of business ; I rather think he is a sufferer. I know this, that if I were to shut up my shop myself, there are on my right hand and my left competitors that would be glad of the opportunity, in order to sell more themselves. But if the law declared that your competitors on your right and left should not serve customers on the Sunday, no disadvantage would accrue to you from being in the same situation ? — None at all. You have regretted that the customers are not in the habit of giving their orders more regularly 3 do you think that fault arises from the master or the servant ? — I think from the masters and mistresses, because they do not think what they shall want till they come out of the Park, or out of the church, knowing that the shops are open at every hour of the day. Is not the irregularity the fault of the servants, in not giving their orders at sufficiently early hours ? — I do not think the fault rests with the servants. Fishmongers. 48 Are the servants yon employ as anxious as yourself to have Sun- day as a day of rest ? — They are. Do they complain of the present system > — They very much com- plain that they cannot have their Sabbath to themselves, or any part of it; and I am forced to say to them, if you do not do the work I must get somebody else ; and some turn round and say, I have a large family, and I must do it or starve. Would it make any difference in their wages whether they had the Sabbath or not to serve, if the law which is now proposed were car- ried into effect ?— No difference in the least. Both masters and servants would derive so much benefit from such a measure, that the master would not think it necessary to reduce the wages of the servants, should the Sunday traffic be pro- hibited ? — No ; the men at present have no time to go to any place of worship, and are as ignorant as can be. You think it would have the effect of improving the morals of the people, that it would not injure them in a pecuniary point of view, and also that it would be as beneficial to them and as much desired by them as it is by the masters ? — It is as much ; I can answer for my own men, and I believe a good many more. Your servants being thus in a certain degree compelled to disre- gard the observance of the Sunday, has it an injurious effect upon the morals of your servants ? — Yes ; we have no opportunity of let- tin?- our lads go to a place of worship. I do believe it would, if they had the means of having the Sabbath to themselves for going to a place of worship, save many from transportation. Do you find that j^our servants who attend at a place of worship on the Sunday, are, generally speaking, honest and diligent men? — I do 3 I am very glad to get hold of svich men ; I have one now who would give every thing to have the Sabbath to himself, but I am obliged to employ him. Then, in fact, the prohibition of the Sunday traffic would be a protection to the conscientious scruples of many individuals ? — It would. And it would do good to society in general ? — It wo\ild do good throughout. They would view it as a privilege rather than a restraint ? — It would be a great privilege to them, to the masters as well as to the servants ; I have no doubt that it would make a deal of difference in one twelvemonth's trial of it ; we should have honester men. Do you know any thing about the wholesale supply of fish on the Sunday } — There is the mackarel trade open on the Sabbath. You allude to Billingsgate .'' — Yes. Is there an opportunity of obtaining any other fish at Billingsgate by the retailers besides mackarel on the Sabbath-day } — Yes j that is not allowed. But there is in fact an opportunity for them so to do .'' — Yes, mullets and any thing that is there they sell. Have you ever heard any of the wholesale dealers express a wish that the traffic should be discontinued on the Sabbath-day ? — I 49 Fishmongers. have ; some of the wholesale dealers have wished to do away with it. Have you ever been at Billingsgate Market yourself on the Sun- day morning ? — I have. Will you be so good as state what you observed there in regard to what was going on ? — I have seen a quantity of very low people purchasing, and a great many half tipsy, and I do believe it is the means of a great many of the lower orders drinking and breaking the whole of the Sabbath. Is there much retail trade that goes on at Billingsgate on the Sabbath-day ? — In the mackarel season. Do you conceive that it is still necessary to give licence for sell- ing mackarel on the Sunday ? — I think that could be done away with ; it is not proper, I think. Why is it not now as requisite as formerly it might have been ? — I conceive that mackarel comes much quicker than it used to do ; they used to be a long while coming on the roads. I have under- stood the roads have been very bad, and they have been a long while coming, and now they can come up in much less time ; I believe they can come from Brighton in six or eight hours, whereas they used to be, I suppose, two or three days. Does the sale of fish at Billingsgate Market lead to drinking and other disorders? — It does; I have seen that myself: the public- houses are open for the reception of such characters. You have suggested that 51. would be a sufficient penalty for en- forcing the alterations in the trade suggested ? — For the first offence. Do you conceive the fine should attach to the purchaser as well as to the seller ? — I think not 5 I think it should be upon the seller. With reference to an opinion expressed in part of the above Evidence, the Select Committee remark: — " Some of the Fishmongers, from the perishable nature of their articles, think it might be expedient to allow the delivery of their goods (previously ordered) until eight or nine o'clock on Sunday morning. But your Committee cannot concur in this opinion. The ground upon which it is urged (viz. that tiie houses of the rich are unpro- vided with the means of duly preserving fish during the night) appears utterly inadequate to justify a practice so equivocal; on the contrary, feel- ing tlie difficulty, if not the practical impossibility, of distinguishing be- tween the Sabbath-day's sale and delivery, on the one hand, and on the other, the delivery on the Sabbath-day of fish alleged to have been bought on the Saturday ; and observing that the indulgence which would thus priinct facie infringe on tlie character of the Lord's-day, is recommended as a relief, not for the great mass of the community in respect to articles of necessity, but as a mere accommodation for the rich in respect to arti- cles of luxury ; they cannot but urge upon the consideration of the House the expediency of preventing the openmg of all fishmongers' shops from 12 o'clock on Saturday night to Monday morning. The same principle applies still more strongly to die supply of poultry, and of other articles of a nature less perishable than fish." No. III. Public Markets. 50 PUBLIC MARKETS. Mr. Thomas Dawson, called in ; and examined. Where do you reside ? — In Leadenhall market. Are you clerk of that market? — Yes, I am collector for the poultry market to the corporation of the city of London. Is any business done in Leadenhall market on Sunday ? — Very tritiiDg ; I have been there in business 32 years, and never had oc- casion to open my shop or do any business ; but there are a few in a middling way that may come and open their doors and expose an article that is perishable, with a view to sell ; but there is no trade, for I do not think there are any orders on Sunday. Is the so exhibiting of goods contrary to the regulations of the market ? — I believe that has to do with the Lord Mayor, and they are liable to be fined 5s. By the statute law ? — Yes ; there are six or eight poulterers in a very large way ; those never have occasion to open their shops at all. Do you think the public are put to any inconvenience from not having access to the poulterers' shops on the Sunday ? — Not at all. What are the days of Leadenhall market .?— Every day ; Wed- nesday and Saturday are the principal. Is there a Monday market to any extent ? — Pretty well ; a pretty good market the Monday is. Mr. Thomas Shank, called in ; and examined. Where do you reside? — I reside in Durham-yard, West Street, West Sraithfield. Are you connected with the Smithfield market? — I am clerk of the market. Is there any business done in the market on Suiiday ? — There is no market held on the Sunday ; nothing sold. Is there any business preparatory to the market done on the Sunday ? — From six to eight o'clock in the morning I have about eight men at work ; they are engaged in putting up rails and tem- porary pens for the purposes of the market. At what hour is that work done in the course of the day ? — They come again at four o'clock in the afternoon and finish the prepara- tions for the markets, because we do not exactly know what we want in the morning, and what more is wanted than they have pre- pared for in the morning they put up after four o'clock in the after- noon. At what time do the cattle arrive in the market ? — Nine o'clock the sheep, and twelve o'clock the beasts ; I am employed very much myself on the Sunday. This work on the part of your men on the Sunday, and your own time being thus consumed, is with a view to prepare for the Monday's market ? — Yes. Which of course would all be avoided if the market were changed from Monday to Tuesday ? — Yes. 51 Public Markets. Do you think that there would be any difficulty in bringing about such a change ? — None, if there was an Act of Parliament to that eflFect ; it could not be done without. Is the present day of the market fixed by Act of Parliament ? — I believe it is ; I understand so j in fact, I think I could prove it ; I think there is an Act of Parliament, 33 Geo. 3, which empowers the corporation of London to regulate the drovers and Sniithfield market, and in that Act of Parliament I have observed that the corporation are not authorized to shorten the hours that Smithfield was kept open at that time for the purposes of a market ; and from that I infer that Smithfield market is held by the authority of Par- liament at those times. Does it occur to your mind that there are any interests which could be put to loss by changing the day from Monday to Tuesday } — The butchers say that it would be inconvenient to them to attend on Tuesday, that Monday is the most convenient day for them, be- cause they have a great deal more business to transact in their shops on Tuesday than they have on Monday. Do you happen to know why it is that the butchers have more to do upon Tuesday than they have upon Monday? — There is a greater demand for meat on that day ; the generality of persons, except those of the very highest class, generally make the butchers' meat that they have on Sunday, with some little additions, answer for their dinners on Monday, and then they have fresh meat on Tuesday ; that is the only way in which I can account for it ; but of the fact there is no doubt. What is the state of the neighbourhood of the market on the Sunday, as to the shops ; is much business done on that morning ? — Imniediately in the neighbourhood of Smithfield market, on Sunday, there is but very little business done of any descx'iption, and in fact the neighbourhood seems to me to be very quiet ; but, as for myself, I can speak but very little of it, for I seldom go out of Smithfield on the Sunday, except in the morning I go to St. Sepul- chre's church, and the remainder of the day I am busy in the market ; I hardly ever go out of the market. What is the character of the drovers who frequent the market? — There are some of them very respectable men, considering their situations in life, much more so than you would expect, and there are a great many of them as great blackguards as can be, some of the assistants particularly ; most of what we call master drovers are very respectable men 5 some of the assistants that they get are certainly very indifferent characters indeed. Are many of such characters to be seen about the market on Sunday ? — No, not till just before the sheep come in ; you will hardly see a drover in Smithfield market till about eight o'clock. Then you would conceive that the market being held on the Monday causes no inconvenience to the inhabitants of the imme- diate neighbourhood on the Sunday ? — I do not think it does. The inconvenience of driving the cattle rather affects parts of the town more distant, does it not ? — It does so. Have you heard any complaints in the evening of the Sunday of Public Markets. 62 inconvenience to people coming from church, for instance, by the arrival of cattle ? — ^Yes, there have been complaints of that kind. What do they complain of ? — The sheep are not allowed to come in before nine o'clock ; notwithstanding that regulation the drovers will bring them in before nine, and it has occurred that they have come in as early as half after eight, ami at that time met some of the people coming from St. Sepulchre's cnurch, the evening service of which is rather late, and they have complained of it ; but just at this moment they have no cause to complain of that, because none of the sheep have come in before a quarter to nine. I myself have gone out and threatened them that they would find the ill effects of it, though I do not know how we are to prevent it ; and they have promised me that they would not come in before the time, and they have not for several months past. With reference to the Smithfield market, should 3v'ou yourself have any objection to a change of the day from Monday to Tues- day ? — I should prefer it to a good legacy. In short, you wovild wish to have Sunday as a day of rest ? — As- suredly. I do not know any thing that I should be more desirous of. Do you conceive that the inhabitants of the neighbourhood are in the same way of thinking? — I do not conceive that it has much effect upon the immediate neighbourhood of Smithfield ; and I do not think they care much about it ; the market does not affect them. I do not think it will make much difference to them whether it is Monday or Tuesday. Some years back I did reside at Islington, and then I had an opportunity of seeing that the place was very much annoyed by the cattle and the drovers, and all those sorts of things ; in fact, the whole place is a scene of business all day of Sunday in the neighbourhood of Islington. Then the driving of cattle through Islington, you observed when you resided in that neighbourhood, gave occasion to a great deal of business of other kinds, which tended to break in on the rest of the day ? — Certainly it did. Did it appear to you, when you resided at Islington, that the in- habitants of that parish were desirous of a change of the market from Monday to Tuesday ? — I know some of them were ; I held no official situation to know their general sense, but I know a good many of them were. Does the arrival of so many drovers on the Sunday night at Smithfield occasion a great number of public-houses to be opened for their reception ? — All the public-houses of Smithfield are opened, whether they are open merely on that account or no I cannot take upon myself to say ; I dare say they would be open if there were no drovers, I cannot say that that gives occasion to their being opened. But practically there must be a large increase of business in con- sequence of the large number of drovers arriving ? — Yes. Can you state any advantage which would arise from changing the market-day from Monday to Tuesday ? — I think, but I do not know, that it is very likely altering the day from Monday to Tuesday would have the effect of equalizing the consignments of cattle to the market 3 at present, we have not upon the whole much more than 63 Public Markets. one-fourth of the quantity of stock comes to market on Friday that comes on Monday ; the consequence is, that on Monday we have not room to accommodate them, and on Friday we could accom- modate three times as many ; and if I am right in my opinion, it would certainly be a very great benefit to the market ; but it is only a private opinion of my own. It would appear from what you state, that it would greatly con- venience the market, if the stock were equalized on the different days ? — There is no doubt that would be a great benefit. Do you think it would likewise be a benefit to the public at large ? — I cannot say how far the public would be interested, at large ; it would certainly be a great convenience to those who attend the market : they would be better accommodated ; they would not be distressed for room ; the stock would not be punished for want of room. The sales are made on Monday with considerable inconvenience to the purchasers, from the crowded state of the market ? — Yes ; there is considerable inconvenience arising to them from the crowded state of the market. How is it that the market is so much overstocked on the Monday, and not on the Friday ? — On Monday, we conceive now they are able to purchase stock to kill and exhibit in their shops on Tuesday, and it is more convenient for the butchers to attend the market on the Monday than it would be on Friday, and I should think natu- rally that therefore the stock found an easy sale ; the fact is, that it sells better on Monday now than it does on Friday. It is supposed that this greater facility of disposing of the stock on Monday proceeds from the butchers having got payment of their bills from their customers on the end of the previous week ? — They are certainly better prepared with their money on Monday than they are on Friday, having sold their meat on the Saturday. Still they would not be less prepared with their money on Tues- day than they would be on Monday; would they ? — I am hardly prepared to give an opinion. You are of opinion that such change would tend to equalize the two market days ? — I do really think it would ; at different times I have heard a great number of different persons' opinions upon it, and I think so. Does it occur to your mind that any disadvantages would accrue by altering the day from Monday to Tuesday } — I have already stated, that it would not be so convenient to butchers, and I appre- hend that it would be inconvenient to some persons who bring stock into Smithfield market, who also attend other markets at a distance from town ; they could not attend those markets if the day was altered ; they would not have time to travel up to the Smithfield market. Do you not conceive that if Smithfield market, being the great attraction, were altered, the other markets w'ould accommodate themselves to that ? — I do. Public Markets. 54 Mr. William Vorley, called in; and examined. Where do you reside ? — Straehan Terrace, Islington. What is your business ? — Salesman ; I have been 30 years in that business. From present arrangements, is it necessary to attend much to your business on Sunday ? — Very much indeed ; it is dreadful. Will you have the goodness to describe to the Committee what is the nature of your business on Sunday ? — I have cattle coming out of different counties all seasons of the year, which arrive in the neighbourhood of London on the Sabbath-day ; I employ men on that day to look after the cattle, and of course those must neglect the Sabbath on my account, being the master. I embrace what opportunity I can to attend public worship, but my servants can- not ; I am desirous they should as well as myself. How much of the day does it require your own attendance ? — My son goes to Mile End at nine o'clock, and he is back at one ; I used to do that formerly. How many men are actively in your employ on Sunday ? — I should suppose not less than nine or ten. How many on an average has each salesman ?- — I really cannot say how many exactly, but there is a great number altogether. Besides the inconvenience to yourself and your servants, which you have described, is this passing of cattle through Islington a great inconvenience to people of that parish generally ? — There are cer- tainly great complaints in Islington of the droves and flocks being there on the Sunday, and the inhabitants of that parish are annoyed most seriously; it has been so for a number of years past. Does this state of things lead to a great deal of business being done on that day, not immediately connected with the market ? — No doubt of that ; several inns and public-houses are much occu- pied, in consequence of the persons who are up on that day for the Monday's market. Should you think it would be desirable, with a view of having the Sunday better observed in that neighbourhood, to have the market- day changed from Monday to Tuesday ? — In my opinion, the altera- tion would be decidedly beneficial. Should you think that is the general opinion of others in your business r — There is, I fear, in the minds of some of them an indif- ference in this respect, which may in great measure arise from habit. Do you know any inconvenience that would result from changing the market-day from Monday to Tuesday ? — There would no doubt be many persons against such a change of the market, who hold that there would be more profanation on the Sabbath-day if the market were changed to the Tuesday ; that is, that people would kill their cattle on that day ; that there would be more slaughtering done in the metropolis than there is now 3 that there would be more people employed on the Sabbath-day among the butchers than there is among the drovers 3 I have heard that objection. Do you think that argument is well founded ? — I am decidedly of opinion that it is not. Are the men employed by the drovers so completely occupied on 55 Public Markets. the Sunday that it is out of their power to attend any place of pub- lic worship ? — I think that they cannot, on account of their present occupations on that day. During what part of the day are your men employed ? — In the morning from six or seven o'clock till perhaps 10 or 11 ; and in the evening at four, to get the beasts and cattle together, till 7 or 8. The men who have been employed from an early hour in the morning to 11, are not in the habit of going to church immediately afterwards ; are they? — I should conceive they are not. Do you think there is any desire among that class of men to see such a change of the market-day ? — I should think so ; if there was a change to the Tuesday ; it lies with themselves to improve the Sunday ; they cannot now, for they have no opportunity. The desire which you have expressed for the change has reference to the good not only of the salesmen and the inhabitants of the neighbourhood generally, but likewise of the drovers .'' — There is a great quantity of people that come to London on the Sunday from different parts, 100 miles say, to sell the stock on the Monday, who travel on Saturday night and Sunday : those people, if the market were altered to the Tuesday, would travel on the Monday ; they would have the Sabbath at home to themselves ; but the market being on the Monday, they are obliged to come off on the Saturday night or Sunday : and there is another thing, from the neighbour- hoods of Norwich and Leicester great numbers commence travelling on the Sabbath-day for the next week's market, while if the market was on the Tuesday they would begin to travel on the Monday, so that they would save a Sabbath-day in those neighbourhoods. And in the intermediate counties ? — Yes ; I think it is quite clear by the alteration of the market to Tuesday, that those who bring the stock the distance of 100 miles need not be occupied more than one Sabbath-day. So that by changing the market day from Monday to Tuesday, a great deal of the present travelling on Sunday by coaches might be prevented ? — A great deal indeed, by coaches which bring up per- sons on that day for the Monday's market. Coaches that do not run on other days ? — No ; but I think much of the travelling by those coaches on the Sunday would be saved, but for the market being on Monday. Are there several salesmen that come up on that day? — Yes. According to your knowledge, do those that may be within eight or ten hours of travelling from London, come up, to attend the Mon- day's market, on the Sabbath-day, or during the Sabbath-night ? — Some come up on the Saturday night, and others on the Sunday. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee the com- parative numbers of those persons ? — I should think the most part of those persons come on the Sunday ; besides this, eight or ten miles round London, thei'e is a great number which come to this market on that day, also a great number of cattle, which are fed in the marshes round London, are collected and driven upon the Sab- bath for the Monday market, which, if the market were on the Tuesday, would start on the Monday. Public Markets. 56 There must;, in fact, be hundreds of persons employed in this operation of collecting the cattle together on the Sunday, who, by the change of the market to which you allude, would have the Sab- bath to themselves as a day of rest ? — That is my opinion. Do you conceive that if the arrangement were made to avoid the Sunday traffic, the drovers' wages would be diminished in the course of the week? — Not at all. They would receive as much wages for working six days as they do now for working seven ? — ^They would receive just the same. Supposing this change were effected in the market-day from Monday to Tuesday, do you think that change would have a bene- ficial effect in equalizing your supply ? — I really do ; and I believe most people think so, though there are some persons who do not allow it. The unequal supply on the two market-days now, is regarded by the trade as a disadvantage ? — No doubt ; the market-place is too small for the Monday market ; whereas if the market were on Tuesday there would be more cattle come on the Friday ; it would equalize the market, by which means there would be more room, and more comfort for the cattle. Can you account for the unequal state of the market-days at present ? — The first part of the week is the more busy, because the trade find it the most convenient to buy on that day for the other part of the week. Do you think that any objection would be made on the part of the butchers, on the score of shortening the amount of supply on the Tuesday ? — I do not know what objection they would make. Supposing the cattle market were shifted from the Monday to the Tuesday, do you not think that the country markets would adapt themselves to that change ? — I think they would eventually ; there would no doubt be a very great inconvenience from changing the market in the country. Is it a fact, that the very crowded state of the market now upon Monday occasions injury to the cattle ? — There is no doubt of that ; the cattle have not the comfort which they ought to have. It must produce great injury to the purchasers ? — To the cattle and all persons interested : if there was more room, the cattle would be better for sale. ' [Mr. Benjamin Vipan, Salesman, of Cloudesley Terrace, Islington, was likewise examined, and gave similar testimony.'] LONDON: Printed hy Ellerlon ^ Henderson, Gough Square, FDll THE gociels for promoting \%t tiuc ©bserbanrc of tfte 3lorO's=I!3aa ; ANU SOLO By Messrs. Rivington, St. Paul's Church-yard and Waterloo Place; by Messrs. Seeley, Fleet Street ; by Messrs. Ha'ichakd, Piccadilly ; by Mr. Nisbet, Berners Street ; and at the above-named Society's Office, 12 Exeter Hal!, Strand. Price 4d. each, or 28s. per hundred. At which places may be obtained the REPORT of the Select Committee the House of Commons on the Lord's Day, price Id. or 6s. per hundred ; an also FURTHER SELECTIONS and EXTRACTS from the EVIDENCE. IBVZDENCE IN REFERENCE TO ROAD TRAVELLING S^ TRAFFIC ON CANALS BEFORE THE SELECT COMMHTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS <©it tf^t <©iJ0ertjat!ce of tt)e ILorti*0*l3ai)» Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed August 6, 1832. ROAD TRAVELLING. iV/r. Richard Smith, called in ; and examined. Where do you reside? — No. 12, Alfred Place, Camberwell. Are you assessor of stage-coach duties ? — Yes. What are the number of stage-coaches licensed ? — In town and country, about 3,000 annually. Can you state how many there are licensed in London ? — About 1,500 ; and the same number in the country. What are the numbers of those licensed to run within 12 miles of London? — About 800 of those licensed in London are licensed to run within 12 miles of London. How many of the 12-mile coaches run on the Sabbath-day? — Al- most all of those licensed to run not more than 12 miles from town are licensed to run on the Sabbath-da}^ How many of the coaches running more than 12 miles from London are licensed to run on Sunday? — I should think about two-thirds are licensed to travel on the Sabbath-day. What proportion do the number of journeys performed by coaches running on the Sabbath-day bear to the journeys performed on the other days of the week? — About two-thirds; I judge in some measure, more particularly by a cheque taken by the Commissioners of Stamps, in which I find from 800 to 900 journeys performed by the stage- coaches in Cheapside on the week-days, and about 600 on the Sabbath-day. Do you conceive that test gives a fair average of the journeys made by coaches ? — I think it forms a fair average of journeys generally per- formed by stage-coaches. How many of the coaches licensed in the country are licensed to run upon the Sabbath-day? — I should think about one-half of the number of coaches licensed in the country are licensed to run on the Sabbath-day. Are the duties charged on coaches the same on Sunday as any other day of the week ? — They are the same. Have they always been so ? — Yes, certainly. Has there ever been any idea of making the duties higher on the No. IV. A Boad Tavelliitg. 2 Sunday than on other days of the week ? — I have never heard it started as a question of revenue. Have you ever heard, that there was a higher charge on the Sunday ? — Never; stage-coach duties are quite modern, and were first im- posed by the 19 Geo. 3, c. 51. Mr, Lewis Levy, called in ; and examined. Where do you reside ? — 29, Brompton Square Do you farm the post-horse duty ? — Yes. Are the returns made up for each day of the week ? — Yes. Can you let the Committee know the average amount of duty for each day of the week ? — No ; I only received my summons this morning, and I could not possibly say decidedly what the average would be ; but I think that about London and near the great towns it is more on Sundays than on other days, because there are a great many more light vehicles and saddle-horses that are hired on Sundays ; people are engaged more on parties of pleasure. Of regular posting, I should think there is not more on the Sunday. You have not the means of distinguishing between regular posting and the travelling of parties of pleasure for short distances } — I have no means of ascertaining in any other way than that the parties of pleasure are mostly conveyed by carriages, particularly about London. Do you farm the post-horse duty for all England ? — Not for all. For several counties ? — For several counties. Will you mention the counties ? — 1 am concerned in London and Westminster, Kent and Sussex and Surrej ; those are the principal counties near London that I am concerned in. Is the post-horse duty in London and Westminster greater on Sun- day than on any other day ? — Yes, in summer time. In what proportion ? — Thirty or forty per cent. more. What is the proportion in the most distant counties? — In some counties I should say decidedly not greater ; for instance, I should say in the counties of Bedford and Buckingham not greater, nor even quite so great, because there are some noblemen and gentlemen there that do not travel on Sundays. Do you rent the turnpikes in different parts of England ? — Yes. Can you, from your own knowledge of them, say what proportion the Sunday travelling generally bears to the travelling on other days of the week ? — It is a different species of travelling on Sundays alto- gether; because on the other days of the week there is a greater traffic of heavy work, as we call it, of carts and waggons, but on Sunday it is mostly all light carriages. Then the additional travelling on Sunday is chiefly posting ? — Post- ing ; and near London there are hackney coaches and stage coaches, and gentlemen's own carriages. I think there is more travelling near London of the noblemen and the higher orders on Sunday than there is any other day of the week ; because noblemen and gentlemen that are relieved from their duties in the two Houses of Parliament take the advantage of travelling on Sunday, because the public are more en- 3 Road Travelling. couraged now to travel on the Sunday than they used to be, by the Acts of the Legislature themselves. Till within these fevr years, there was a double toll charged tor travelling on Sunday ; now there is a standing order in the House of Lords, that in any new bill any clause imposing a double duty on Sunday is expunged. How long is it since that rule was made ? — Since Lord Shaftesbury was chairman. Has the Sunday travelling been increased much since the taking ofF of this duty? — I dare say it has ; for instance, a person in little cir- cumstances, if he was obliged to pay a double toll, did not travel for recreation on the Sunday. One of the Acts of the Legislature certainly encourages the public, the lower order in particular, to take more recreation on the Sunday than they could before. Do you conceive that the revenue gains or loses by taking off the double toll ? — It gains on the Sunday, because a poor man, who could not take his family on the other days of the week, who has not time in the course of the week to take his family out, takes them now on the Sunday afternoon ; because the tolls are moderate ; and the re- venue must be increased by that. And you think that he does that, the double toll being taken off, which he would not have done if the toll was double ? — I cannot say that ; he is enabled with the greater ease now to do that which he was entirely prohibited from before. Is there much duty devolved on the persons connected with your department, in consequence of Sunday travelling? — You must either abolish the turnpikes altogether, or else there must be a man there, as a matter of course. We are obliged by Act of Parliament to have a toll-keeper at every toll-gate, and unless that were abolished alto- gether, I do not see that there is any heavier duty at all to the man than there was before. Do you not consider it desirable that the toll -keepers, and all the persons employed in your department as a toll-renter, and otherwise, if they cannot get a complete day of rest, should have a comparative day of rest ? — There are several men that I have got that have an ob- jection to work on the Sunday, and it is so arranged ; but that arrange- ment I would wish to explain, because I do not mean to say that I would indulge them in that way, or possibly could indulge them in that way, only from the peculiar circumstances that I am placed in ; for instance, some of my men observe their own Sabbath on the Sa- turday, and of course they do not work on that day, and then, as a matter of course, I let as many as I can abstain from work on their Sabbath-day. It is not possible for the turnpike-keepers to work every day of the week, from the severity of the employment. It would be impossible for me to give them the rest they might desire, if they were all of the same persuasion. You say that in the neighbourhood of large towns, particularly Lon- don, the post-horse duty amounts to much more on the Sunday than the average of other days of the week ; that in two counties it is about equal, and in certain remote counties, such as Bedfordshire, it is A 2 Road Travelling. 4 somewhat less on the Sunday than on other days ? — Yes, in Bedford- shire and in Buckinghamshire somewhat less. Do you farm all the post-horse duties within a certain distance of London ? — Yes, and Cornwall and Devonshire. It is the same there ; near a large town the artizans and the different workmen get their horses used if they can on the Sunday ; they cannot well do it now, but where they can, it is for a day's pleasure, and of course, where there are no persons of that description, they do not go. With respect to post travelling generally through the country, do you, as a renter of turnpikes, think that there has been an increase of posting for the noblemen and gentlemen of late years, or otherwise ? — A wonderful decrease, that is occasioned by the steam-boats, and particularly down the Kent-road, because now every nobleman and gentleman that is going a tour with his family, or an ambassador, or any foreigner of distinction, has a steam-boat to meet him, say at London Bridge, and they go straight in that way. The posting in Kent is not a third of what it was some years ago. Is that the case with the inland travelling? — It is the same thing ; they go to Scotland now by steam. Mr. Peter Mountain, called in; and examined. You are a coach proprietor ? — Yes. Wheredoyou reside? — At Saracen's Head, Skinner Street, Snow Hill. You are in extensive business ?-~Rather so. Do your coaches work on Sunday as well as on other days? — Most of them work on Sunday, some on other days only. Is it from a conscientious desire on your part that some do not ? — Some, for instance to Marlborough, go for six days in the week, and the Southampton goes seven ; but we would rather have them rest on the Sunday, and most of our connexions would also, where it could be arranged with the day coaches. In fact you have arranged, as far as possible, so as to travel the six days rather than the seven ? — Yes. And you consider it beneficial for the coaches ? — I consider it be- neficial to the coaches and to the stock ; we keep less stock to do it. The general cause of coaches running on the Sunday is because most do the same. Should you think it desirable that such an arrangement should be brought about, either by the common consent of the proprietors, or by legislative enactment, that all travelling should be stopped on the Sabbath-day ? — Day-coaches, certainly. Does not your observation apply to the night-coaches also? — With respect to night-coaches that go 200 miles, they would be on the road for two days ; a coach going to York would arrive on the follow- ing day, it would not finish its work till the second day. That is, supposing the traveller were intent on making the journey through ? — They must travel on the Sunday. I think it would be impossible, where they exceed 13 or 14 hours, for them to stop on the Sunday. 5 Uoad Travelling. But the great proportion of the day-coaches in England are within 100 miles of London, are they not? — Yes, or 130 or 140. And by common consent you think it would be possible to diminish Sunday travelling ? — Certainly. Do you find any desire among the coach proprietors to effect that object? — I think the majority of them would wish it so. The danger of it is principally that a party may Iiave an opposition coach running on the road on a Sunday, and if he did not keep on, he would dimi- nish some of the passengers. Do you think it would be possible, seeing there is so great a desire on the part of the proprietors, for Parliament to aid them by a legis- lative enactment? — Certainly, I believe there is; and the Monday's market for instance, the corn market in London, and the Smithfield market, if they were on the Tuesday they could do it better ; a great many travel on the Sunday to be in London in time for the Monday markets. If the Smithfield market and the corn market were held on the Tuesday, the necessity for a great portion of the Sunday travelling would cease ? — Certainly; I think a very few would travel on the Sun- day if that were changed. The Birmingham coaches are filled on Sunday by salesmen coming up to market. If marketing were on the Tuesday, by those persons starting on the Monday there would be ample time for their coming to the Tuesday's market ? — Certainly, Has any attempt been made, that you are aware of, by the coach proprietors, to bring about such an arrangement ? — Some of them have stopped them, but then the other parties have kept them on ; but then I think the majority of them would certainly discontinue the day coaches on the Sunday; all of them. Have you any reason to know that the numerous men who are em- ployed about the coaches, as coachmen, guards, ostlers and others, desire such an arrangement as would give them Sunday as a day of rest ? — Certainly ; they would prefer it ; nine out of ten would, I think, certainly, especially those that are ostlers ; and some of them are a bad set ; they are men of no education, and neither can read nor write. It would not relieve the ostlers so much as other men, would it? — It would relieve them quite as much ; they would have very little to do ; they would have only two or three hours instead of nine or ten. How many hours a day do the coachmen work now ? — They gene- rally travel 70 or 80 miles ; a longer distance than they did formerly ; some of them more and some less. How man hours are the horse-keepers engaged ? — Seven or eight or nine hours, those that have 20 horses a day; it depends upon the num- ber of horses they have to look after. You are of opinion that no satisfactory arrangement could be made unless the markets were put off from Monday to the Tuesday? — I am afraid not. Would a change of the market-day interfere with the rotation of markets in other places ? -I should think not myself. Then you can anticipate no substantial objection on tbepart of those Iload Travelling. 6 who frequent the markets, if an arrangement was made by people of authority to postpone the market ? — No ; in fact, I should wish it ray- self; it would be better for coach proprietors, and it would be better for their stock ; and they would derive as much profit by working in the six days as they do by working in the seven. Do you think that if the London markets were postponed till Tues- day, there would be sufficient time afforded to those who are in the usual habit of attending these markets to come up to town to be pre- sent at them ? — Certainly, I think so. The Smithfield market was ta have been altered to Tuesday, but I do not know why it was put off; in the city it was tried. Do you think the coachmen would desire to have a day of rest ? — Certainly I do. Have you heard them express a wish to that effect ? — I have never questioned them upon it ; but I am confident that the majority of them would wish it. And you think it would be beneficial both to themselves and to their families ? — Yes, As it is, none of them have an opportunity of attending a place of public worship ? — No, none of them, unless they arrive in town in the afternoon ; none are in time for the morning service, because they never arrive till one or two in the day. Have you any thing further to observe to the Committee ? — I should wish for the prevention of Sunday travelling, if it could be arranged for the benefit of the trade generally speaking, with respect to day coaches which travel within a certain circle of London. Does that circle include Birmingham ? — Certainly, and Weymouth for instance ; 134 miles, in fact; we have a Weymouth coach, and when that coach ran only six days a week, we earned more than we do by it now when it runs seven. Sunday was a very bad day down, and there were principally back passengers, but very few up. We put it to seven days because they ran another coach against us, and that coach has failed, and we have kept it to Sunday since. Tolls are a great deal higher on the Sunday than on any other day. Are you in possession of the opinions of any of the coach masters or coach proprietors in regard to the travelling on the Sabbath-day ? — No ; if the coaches went six days a week, it would make a reduction in the trade. If there are five coaches to any town, and they go six days a week, that makes five days a week less in their working. You are speaking with regard to one road ? — On any road it would be the same ; in fact, we would stop all our coaches on the Sunday if others would do the same, leaving the markets out of the question. What effect do you think it vvould produce upon your coachmen and others in your employ ; a beneficial effect or otherwise ? — [ should say beneficial -, the rest of the Sunday ; most of those men have families. Have you and your family been great hackney-coach proprietors ? — My grandfather was. You do not continue it ? — I have one hackney-coach 5 I had severaJ 7 Road Travelling. some years ago. My grandfather would never allow any of his men to work on the Sunday 3 he hired horses out. When you said that you considered it would be beneficial to those proprietors, did you mean to their pecuniary interests or to the morals of their establishments ? — I believe the coachmen of the present day are very different from what they were formerly ; some very respect- able men ; we have men brought up at college ; they are fond of driv- ing, and they work a stage themselves. You said you considered that it would be beneficial ; do you mean to your pecuniary interests or to the morals of your establishment? — I believe the coachmen of the present day are very well behaved men, I think certainly, and the majority of them certainly do conduct them- selves very well. Would you not consider it better for their morals that they should have Sunday for mental and moral improvement ? — Certainly. Do you run a coach to Brighton ? — Not to Brighton, to South- ampton. How many horse-keepers, ostlers, coachmen and guards are alto- gether emploj'ed in one day on the coaches of Southamptoh ? — I should think it would take 11 horse-keepers and three coachmen. And how many horses? — About 70. Mr. William Chaplin, called in ; r.nd examined. Where do you reside? — At the Spread Eagle, Gracechurch Street. You are a proprietor of several coach-offices ? — Yes. And have a great number of coaches running throughout the king- dom ? — Yes. Had you, some time since, some communication with the Rev. Mr. Smith, of Stratton, upon the subject of Sunday travelling of coaches ? —Yes. Was there not at that time a strong desire expressed on the part of several coach proprietors to have Sunday travelling put a stop to, if it could be done without giving any one coach proprietor an advantage over another r — There was every willingness, quite so. W^as that from the conviction that it would be beneficial to their business to have one day of rest in seven ? — Yes ; and more satisfac- tory to conduct altogether. Not only that it would be more satisfactory to them, as conscien- tious men, to observe it in a religious point of view, but that it would be beneficial to their stock, that a less stock could do the work and would last longer, if they worked but six days rather than seven ? — I apprehend in general, where the business of a county or particular district could be done in six days, that it would be more beneficial to the coachmaster certainly ; any town or district where the business could be satisfactorily conducted in six days, it would be better for the coach proprietors. Is it not the case that a great deal of the Sunday travelling by coaches to London at present, is occasioned by the Smithfield market and corn market and other markets being held on the Monday ? — Road Travellmg. 8 There are very many reasons that produce travelling on the Sunday, particularly out of the north : the great show-day for manufacturers in London is on Monday ; all the lace market, the Nottingham manu- facturers are all on the -move to town, to see their goods sold on the Monday. Will you have the goodness to enumerate a few of the inducements to Sunday travelling? — There is corn and cattle, and coals, and there is the silk, the Manchester goods ; those are within my own knowledge. They are all exhibited especially on that day ? — Monday is the main show-day. Supposing, for the sake of argument, that all or a great part of such markets were postponed from Monday to Tuesday, might not the tra- velling within a circle of 120 miles of London, that is to say, taking in Birmingham on the north, and taking in Weymouth and a great part of the south of England, be in a great measure diminished, as within that circle there would be suffieient time to travel up on Monday for the Tuesday's market? — I think it would extend much further than 120 miles; if the markets were put on the Tuesday instead of on the Monday, it would rectify a good many. And it would tend very much to facilitate the arrangement among the coach proprietors to put a stop to or diminish Sunday travelling. The Committee would beg you to keep out of mind altogether jour- neys from a distance, such as from York and Edinburgh? — I think it would do it to many towns on the north, such as Manchester and Liverpool, and York. It would even go further than 120 miles from London ? — Yes ; be- cause if they were here on Tuesday morning they come away on Saturday and Sunday, and I think they would not start till Sunday night ; therefore it would have its effect in all the leading towns of the north, because they would not start till the evening, on purpose to be in town on Monday evening for business. Presuming that you still entertain the willingness which you for- merly expressed to Mr. Smith, and presuming that other gentlemen in your business still entertain a willingness to put a stop to Sunday travelling, if it could be done without any unfairness to any person, you think it would be desirable that the markets should be postponed from Monday to Tuesday ? — I think it would be generally desirable ; it is not likely that you would succeed in any other mode, because the coach proprietor is a secondary person altogether: he must only supply according to the taste of the public, and if the inducement to be there on the Monday were done away, I should say that half the coaches would stop on the Sunday. If the coaches were stopped, and the markets not changed, it would only have the effect of increasing posting ; would it not ? — It would altogether put such impediments in the way of traders ; in fact, I cannot conceive how they could get up ; it is evident to my opinion that while the establishments are held on the Monday, and the present practice continued, the coaches must go on the Sunday. You have already expressed yourself generally favourable to such a change of day as has been mentioned, as tending to bring about a di- 9 Road Travelling minution of Sunday travelling ; does any objection to such a change of things in the markets, supposing the thing practicable, occur to your miiid ? — No, I never have seen any. With respect to any of those trades ? — No, I do not. I called upon a silk manufacturer tliis morning; I anticipated some questions that might be asked. I asked him as a compliment what he felt, whether the Tuesday would not do for a silk market as well as the Monday, and he gave the same reasons for it as I should do, that the coach could not stop on the Sunday merely, that the people wanted to come, and he said that all the people came on the Monday to buy; well, I said, they would come on the Tuesday, and he said, he thought not ; and I said, if they sold them cheaper on the Wednesday than the Monday, would they not be there ; and he said, he thought they would ; in fact, he after a time became really of opinion that the in- dividuals would come up on the Tuesday if the day were changed. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that the law were carried into effect in all the trades, there would be no inducement to Sunday tra- velling ? — No. Can you explain to the Committee what you mean by exhibition of silk and so on, on the Monday? — It is customary to offer more silk and lace and Manchester goods for sale on the Monday than on any other day. Then another consequence of having what you call the silk market upon the Monday is this, that it not only brings a greater number of passengers by the coaches, but it must necessarily occasion a great deal of carriage for the silk itself on the Sunday, to reach London in time for the Monday demand ? — It is the case. Whereas if that general marketing were transferred to Tuesday, there would be ample time to bring up all the goods by Tuesday? —Yes. By what conveyances do the goods come ? — By all conveyances. By vans ? — No, they do not come fast enough with the goods from the Saturday night ; they do not come quick enough by the latter conveyances ; but the coaches out of those counties earn more money considerably upon the Sundays, and that arises from this particular cause, for they earn comparatively very little down, and that shews at once the bearing of those markets. Having now to travel your horses seven days in the week, are you obliged to have additional horses, in order to give rest alternately ? — Yes ; but I do not think that there is any benefit particularly arises there, because our arrangements are suitably made. If you knew positively that you were only to work six days instead of seven, your supply of stock would be proportionably made? — Yes. What diminution of stock would it occasion, say in the establish- ment of one coach? — We might fairly say one-seventh. Between London and Birmingham, for instance, would you diminish the amount of your stock one-seventh, if you travelled only six days instead of seven ? — We should do away with the rest-houses or alter the stages, and it would evidently be a reduction of stock, because there would be a reduction in receipts. Road Travelling. 10 Do you conceive there would be a great reduction of receipts ; might you not reckon nearly the same number of individuals travelling in the course of six days as now travel in the course of seven, keeping in view, for the sake of argument, that the markets were changed ? — Then I think we should be better off, inasmuch as we should earn comparatively more money in the six days, and we should conduct our business more satisfactoril}' in every department. And with less outlay ? — Of course there would be less outlay. Can you inform the Committee, supposing you take any given line, from London to Manchester we will say, or any 100 miles, how many horses, coachmen, ostlers, guards, &c., are employed on the Sunday ? — The same as on every other day. How many would that be? — If it was 100 miles there would be nearly 100 horses employed on that coach, and a horse-keeper to every eight or ten miles. Your argument in favour of changing the market with regard to the silk trade, with respect to which you have expressed an opinion that the demand would very soon accommodate itself to the day ap- pointed, would apply also to all other branches of business, such for instance as the cattle market of Smithfield. The Committee have already had it in evidence from wealthy salesmen that they would much desire to see the day changed from Monday to Tuesday ; does any impediment occur to your mind to such a change ? — Not the slightest. The corn-market has been suggested as one that it would be proper to change ; do you anticipate any impediment? — Not the slightest. That observation would apply to all branches of business? — Yes. From your business you must necessarily know something of the hay-market ? — Yes. What may be the average distance which hay travels to London by land ? — Not over twenty-five miles ; I should say that was the boundary. And that could be performed in one day ? — Yes, because they would come off in the night if it was a very long journey ; the average of hay that the London markets are supplied with, I should say came twelve miles. The Committee have it in evidence from a witness, that great in- convenience is occasioned there by the present markets being on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, inasmuch as the farmer who travels up on Saturday to London cannot travel home till a late hour, and cannot pay his men till Sunday morning; do you conceive there is any good ground for such apology on the part of the farmer ? — None. Do you think the farmer might so correct his own habits as to do away with that local difficulty ? — Perfectly. From your knowledge, might the farmer do his business at such an early hour on Saturday, that he might return home in good time ? — I conceive so ; perfectly so ; I think if it is an over-burdened market, and it is a bad load of hay, it might not be sold at a late hour, or it might not be sold at all : then they leave it in London. At what hour is the business of the market usually over? — If you 11 Road Travelling. go there at two o'clock in the day, there are only the remnants of the market left. Generally speaking, the market is over at twelve or one ? — Yes. Does the farmer usually return with his hay cart, or go by the coach ? — I should say thai they very seldom come ; the man himself comes that drives the cart ; if the farmer comes with the cart himself, he is supposed to be that industrious sort of man who gets all done in good time; if it is left to a negligent servant, he may be rather later; but I should say that the farmer did not come in one case out of one hundred. Do you consider that any advantage would be gained by the outer circle of twenty-five miles that you have spoken of for the supply of hay, if the Friday were made the day of market instead of Saturday ? — I believe there is a choice for them, because there are more markets than Smithfield on other days ; the one at the west-end ; I do not think they are all on one day ; at least I think not. The usual markets, Smithfield and others you have described, are now on Monday, and yet in Regent's Park the hay-market is on Tuesday ? — Yes. Would it do away with any of the good effects you have spoken of, if, while you remove the other market-day from Monday to Tuesday* those markets which are now held on Tuesday should continue to be held on that day ? — No. Do people come from any great distance to the hay-market to buy ? — Not very considerable. Then the day of the hay-market would not affect the Sunday tra- velling? — No, nothing on earth. Do you conceive that such a change of markets as you have spoken of, and that which the Committee desire to see brought about, a great diminution of the travelling on Sunday v/ould be acceptable to gentle- men in your business? — Yes, I think that the main body of coach- masters would prefer having to rest on Sunday. Would it, in order to bring it about, be necessary by Act of Par- liament to prevent competition being entered into by less scrupulous individuals? — That is a very difficult question, because there are cer- tain districts and places of pleasure now ; I should say to Southampton there is a good deal of travelling there on Sunday, where there can be no reasonable excuse; for a coachmaster is like other individuals in trade ; he has to look to his connexions and friends ; and if he does not accommodate them by his coaches on the Sunday, and he drives his patrons into the hands of others who do go on Sunday, it is likely he would not have them on the Monday ; 1 do not think there is enough unanimity among us as a body to secure us ; I feel that the travelling would much decrease, provided the arrangements were entered into as to the markets. In the event of such a change of markets, the difficulty of prevent- ing Sunday travelling would not arise so much from business tra- velling as from pleasure travelling ?— Yes, to Southampton, and different other towns, and a few to Bath ; but travelling has evidently Road Travelling. 12 decreased on the Sunday, excepting occasioned by the causes which I have mentioned. Pleasure travelling to distant places has within your knowledge de- creased ? — Yes. Is that occasioned by persons going in pleasure parties by steam- boats ? — No, I think it has decreased from other causes. From conscientious reasons ? — Yes. Have you observed the effect upon the persons employed by you of the absence of the day of rest on the Sunday, the effect upon the coachmen, horsemen and ostlers employed on the Sunday ; is any moral evil occasioned by it ? — No ; because where there is a disposi- tion to observe the Sunday, they have ample time. Have they ample time for attending Divine worship ? — All our horse-keepers have ample lime, because they have none of them work for more than an hour out of the twenty-four, and there is plenty of time for them to go to church. What proportion of coaches that you run cease running on the Sunday ? — About one-eighth. Mr. William Gilbert, called in ^ and examined. Where do you reside ? — Blossom's Inn, Lawrence-lane. Are you a coach proprietor? — Yes. You have heard the evidence of the last witness, Mr. William Chaplin ?— Yes. You have heard the argument suggested by the Committee with a view to diminish Sunday travelling, namely, the supposition that all the principal markets were transferred from Monday to Tuesday ; in the event of such an arrangement being brought about, do you concur in the sentiments expressed by Mr. Chaplin ? — Certainly, I do. Do you think that it would be beneficial to your trade, that is to say, require a less stock, and give a day of rest to the many people who are employed by you ? — Were Sunday travelling discontinued generally, it would be better for all. As it is at present, a large body of men in your employment must be hard worked on Sunday, as much so as on other days I — When the coaches run on Sunday, men have more to do, of course. Were the Sunday travelling discontinued, except the ordinary care of your horses, they would have a day of rest ? — Yes ; but I think it rests more with the commissioners of the Stamp-office than it does with us. In what respect ? — For instance,, every coach travels with a licence ; some are licensed to run six days a week, and some are licensed to run seven days a week. If those commissioners were only to grant licenses for six days, the coaches consequently could not run on the Sabbath; because it is specified in the licence of every coach that I run, that I shall run a certain number of passages Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdaj', Thursday, Friday, Saturday ; if I run on Sunday, it is named in the licence; and, consequently, if those gentlemen did not licence coaches to rnn on Sunday, Sunday travelling would be prevented, and none 13 Rond Travelling. would have a preference; but if I were to stop my coach, some one else would go and make up the seven. Supposing that all the coaches were by the Stamp-office prevented from running on the Sunday, while the people suppose it to be abso- lutely necessary to be in town on Monday, they would resort to post- ing and other means of travelling ; would they not ? — Certainly. Upon what principle is this privilege granted to the coaches to run on the Sunday ? — It is no privilege to run a coach on the Sunday, and I will explain to the Committee the manner in which it is done. Any man can go to the Stamp-office and enter a coach six days a week, or he can go and enter a coach seven days a week, which appears rather strange to a person employing a number of horses in London, as coach proprietors usually do ; they can go and take out a coach licence and run on the Sunday only; but a coach proprietor cannot well take a cabriolet plate or a hackney-coach plate, without a long rigmarole payment of duties. What class of persons can take out a licence for running on Sunday only? — Any man can take out such a licence. Are the Committee to understand that the revenue gains by granting permission to coaches to run upon the Sunday ? — Certainly it does. Are there any coaches which run upon Sunday and upon no other day ? — I do not know that there are ; there may be to Greenwich, or those short distances. Then, in point of fact, the Committee are to understand that if a licence be granted for seven days, it is more productive to the revenue than if it be granted for six days ? — Yes, it is. Then you conceive that, in the event of such a change of the markets taking place as would make a diminution of the Sunday travelling feasible, all that the Legislature would have to do would be to take from the commissioners of stamps the power of licensing coaches within a given distance to run on Sunday? — I think that to certain towns they require a coach ; in parts, for instance, where there is only one coach on Sunday, if there was one coach to be licensed or two. You heard the question which was put to the last witness, with re- spect to the circle of 120 miles round London ; the Sunday travelling within that circle would become completely unnecessary, if the Mon- day market were transferred to the Tuesday; is that your opinion? — Yes, I agree in that ; the short travelling about London would of course be decreased on the Sunday, because no one in the country need get to the city by Monday under such circumstances. Were you one of the coach proprietors who gave permission to your name being put to a paper expressing a general willingness to put a stop to Sunday travelling, if all were placed on the like footing ?-— Yes. Do your coaches still run on the Sunday ? — 1 have got several that do run on the Sunday, and several that do not. Have you lately discontinued any of your coaches? — The South- ampton coach formerly ran on the Sunday, now it runs only six days. What proportion do those which do not run on the Sunday bear to the whole amount of your coaches ? — Half, I may say. Are you of opinion with Mr. Chaplin, that discontinuing the Road Travelling. 14 Sunday travelling enables you to diminish your stock on any given road on the seventh ? — It enables us to use a much less quantity of stock. I think that it would last longer. We put an additional force on to run seven days a week. Do you not conceive, that if you could, by any arrangement, enable the numerous men in your employment to have the seventh day as a day of rest, it would tend very much to elevate their moral character? — I cannot answer for that, they are such a set of men ; if there was a disposition to go to church, they could. At the present time a great number of men have not the opportunity of going to a place of worship, even if they were in fact so disposed ? ~-~There are always times between, if they are disposed. A person that is hard worked in the morning is not generally so disposed, is he ? — He would rather go and lie down. Do some coachmen and guards who go a long distance on the Sun- day, ever have an opportunity of going to church ? — Yes, there is always a rest guard, and a coachman now never drives more than about six hours, or sometimes seven ; the coaches go so much quicker than they used to do. At what hours do your coaches start from London in the morning ? — At different times ; 1 have nothing out myself after eight o'clock in the morning. "With respect to a general change of markets from Monday to Tuesday in London, does any objection to such a change present itself to your mind ? — Not at present. With a view to diminishing Sunday travelling, you would consider such a change desirable? — I think it is ; I think it would do good. Have you any means of forming an opinion whether on the coaches that you run on Sunday, the larger part of passengers that are brouglit up are on business or on pleasure ? — To the cattle markets the graziers generally come up on the Sunday. You think the larger part of the travelling is on business connected with the market? — Yes. Mr. John Chaplin, called in ; and examined. Have you at any time been engaged in business as a coach pro- prietor ? — Certainly, I have. During how many years? — Perhaps 10 or 12 years. Are you at present in that business?— I am not; my brother, Mr. William Chaplin, is. How long is it since you yourself retired from that business ? — A year, from the coach business. Had you not formerly some correspondence with Mr. Herbert Smith, the curate of Stratlon, on the subject of Sunday travelling? — I had. Did you concur in the opinion, with many other proprietors, that it would be very desirable that the practice of Sunday travelling should be discontinued ? — Yes, in certain cases. Are you still of the same opinion with this letter, in the 22d page of Mr. Herbert Smith's correspondence on the Sabbath, from Mr. J 5 Road Travelluior. O Jolin Chaplin, of llie Spread Eagle, Gracechurch-street, of May 27, 1830: " In reference to the difficulties of the measure, I feel assured, from the knowledge I have of the parties, that coach proprietors are not to be drawn into any measure disadvantageous or prejudicial; and although I am willing to admit that much has been done by you, yet, take my word for it, much yet remains to do. Far be it from me to discourage you in so praiseworthy an undertaking, for the greater the difficulty the greater the credit ; yet I am well assured, unless there is a co-operation of all parties to accede to your desire, you will not find that any individual will take upon himself the responsibility of commencing ; nor is this singular, when no one individual can act for himself, but is, in point of fact, but an integral part, forming a combined body, whose common interest he is bound to study. 1 have said thus much, that you may not be surprised at the apparent want of alacrity or attention manifest to the prompt execution of your wishes. At any time you may be in London, it will be in my power to detail to you more particularly the nature of this business, and probably will afford me the opportunity of an introduction to my brother." Do you now concur in those sentiments? — Unquestionably. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee shortly some of the difficulties to which you allude in this letter, to the discontinu- ing of the Sunday travelling ? — If I recollect correctly the spirit in which that letter was written, it was in consequence of Mr. Smith having found it very difficult to induce coach proprietors (however willingly they expressed their inclination) to stop their coaches or dis- continue the Sunday travelling, if others, working coaches on the same line of road, did not likewise simultaneously discontinue ; be- cause it is obvious that while one coach ran on the Sunday, and ano- ther coach was discontinued, whatever Sunday trade or support there was belonging to the coach that was discontinued, would naturally fall to the other coach still worked. Is it your opinion, from your experience, that the constant occupa- tion of the men necessarily employed about the coaches upon Sundays has been injurious to their morals? — The men occupied in the detail of the coach business, as horse-keepers and stable-men, are men of a class whose morals I cannot say a great deal in favour of; and there- fore previously probably to their being introduced into the employ- ment necessarily attendant on coach business, perhaps their morals were of a class that would scarcely admit of much deterioration, al- though it might of improvement. Still while you were in that business it was the desire on your mind that such arrangements might be made as would allow the men the opportunity to attend religious instruction on the Sunday, rather than follow their occupations? — I should say, decidedly so. And, as a coach proprietor, it was your own desire to be disengaged from such matters on the Sunday ? — Yes, certainly ; there are many coaches which, in all probability, it would be almost impossible to prevent travelling on Sundays; at the same time there are many coaches that still continue, or did at that period continue to travel on Sunday, which 1 think an arrangement might be made to discontinue; and were Road Travelling. 16 such an arrangement to exist, I think it would be very desirable to the coach proprietors as well as the servants employed. Do you think it would be possible in such cases for the coach pro- prietors to bring about the discontinuance of the Sunday travelling, under the protection of the present law, or do they require some fur- ther legislative protection ? — That is a question which opens a very wide field for discussion ; I fear that my limited experience will not enable me to give a decided or satisfactory answer to it. I consider that if unanimity on that point prevailed amongst the principal London proprietors, the measures proposed by this Committee might be car- ried into effect probably without the necessity of any legal interference, and particularly as the London management of the coach business in this kingdom is in the hands of so very few individuals, say five or sixj and if these gentlemen concurred in your views, I have no doubt but that they might be carried partially into effect, without the interfer- ence of a legislative enactment. Are the gentlemen to whom you allude so established in the busi- ness that they could have no reasonable dread of opposition growing up in the shape of Sunday coaches, thereby interfering with their bu- siness? — I do not know that they would be positively secure of that, because there is at present the greatest facility to introduce a new coach on any road ; but if those gentlemen, as a body, were to con- cur, it would certainly forward the views of the Committee. If the day for holding the London markets, Smithfield market, and others, now held on the Monday, were changed from Monday to Tuesday, would it not tend to promote the better observance of the Sabbath ; you are aware that there is a great deal of travelling to London on the Sunday evening, for the purpose of attending the Monday markets ? — In answering that question, I can scarcely feel sufficient confidence to give a reply which I could offer to the Com- mittee as a sufficient guidance, as my personal experience was con- fined to Kent. Beyond a certain number of miles from London, it follows that whether the market were on Monday or Tuesday, persons would be obliged to travel on Sunday, supposing that they were under the necessity of attending the markets from a greater distance than which could be passed in one day. In the Kent direction, where your experience lies, would not the Monday travelling be quite sufficient to enable persons to reach the Tuesday market? — Generally so 5 and from the distances on that road being limited, 1 do not see that there would exist any necessity for the markets being changed at all, because the evening coaches on the Sunday arrive on Monday in sufficient time. But then the Sunday evening coaches from Kent might be dispensed with if the whole travelling; was done on the Monday ?~Clearly. In the county of Kent I think the object of the Committee would be fully attained, if Sunday travelling during the day was discontinued, because I cannot conceive that there would be any serious objection to the evening coaches ; at least, I imagine not. What do you suppose was the number of persons under your own immediate superintendence while you were in the coach business, who 17 Road Travelling. were kept ernployed during tlie Sunday ? — I think that would be best answered by a ratio, which is very easily discovered, of the number of persons employed on any 20 or 30, or other number of miles ; be- cause, whatever road a coach travels, there is generally a similar number of horse-keepers and others employed ; it is impossible to stale the number without a calculation, and I imagine that a reply directly to that question, with respect to any one district particularly, would not afford the Committee any useful information. There are coach- men, guards, and horse-keepers employed, with porters, and a variety of attendants upon the coach on its starling and its arrival, that it is impossible to say without entering into a calculation. Have you any idea of what number of horses it took to do the business of the Sunday ? — A sufficiently near calculation might be made, that every mile that a coach travels, a corresponding number of horses would be required. What number do you give to a mile ? — One horse a mile, or eight horses to the 10 miles ; double mile, going and returning. Do you conceive that it would be beneficial for horses to have a rest one day in seven? — As far as my experience will enable me to give an opinion, I should prefer decidedly to work a coach which laid still on Sunday to working a coach which travelled on Sunday, with refer- ence merely to tlie well-being of the stock ; because I think, generally speaking, I could make those arrangements by which the stock would be greatly benefited ; and generally it might be worked with a less number of horses. Then you think, on the whole, that discontinuing travelling one day in seven might be beneficial both to proprietors and to the men under their orders, and to the horses? — In those cases, I should say decid- edly, where the coach could be taken off on Sunday. What is your present business ? — I am proprietor of the Clarendon Hotel, in Bond Street. Is the business of your hotel as great on Sunday as on any other day of the week ? — Decidedly not. In what does the difference chiefly consist ; do fewer travellers ar- rive ? — No ; an hotel at the west end of the town does not depend on the daily arrival of travellers ; it is usually occupied b}' persons for a week or a month. There is a coffee-house attached to this hotel, and there are occasionally tavern dinners, and unquestionably on the Sunday there is less business in either case. Those families that are stopping, of course require attention continually. Before leaving the subject of Sunday travelling, do you think that it is the desire of the trade that a day of rest should be obtained with the aid of a legislative enactment, provided the same was framed with due regard to the interest of the parties ? — In reply to that question I should beg leave to say, without any reference to a legislative enact- ment, up(»n which I do not feel myself qualified to speak, that I have not the slightest doubt that the more respectable part of the profession would not be averse to an arrangement of that kind with those coaches that there existed a facility in discontinuing on the Sunday. What cases do you particularly allude to, in which you think it No. IV. B Road Travelling. 18 would be impossible to prevent Sunday travelling j what roads ? — I consider that the coaches which come from a great distance from Lon- don, and which occupy two or three days in coming to London, it follows as a matter of course that without stopping all sort of commu- nication by coaches, they must run on the Sunday. Supposing tiie travellers are intent on arriving in the shortest space of time ? — And which will always be the case. Do you ihink that the mail-coaches that now run would not be suf- ficient to carry all the travellers that come to town on the Sabbath ?• — On such a question I scarcely feel myself competent to speak, but which will be answered better by those parties of whom I have spoken; but I should certainly think, individually, not. Supposing the desire to observe the Sabbath-day were to become more generally thought a duty, and that individuals were to desist on conscientious motives from travelling on the Sunday, do you not think that such a circumstance would be agreeable to the most re- spectable part of the coach proprietors ? — I should say decidedly so, as consequent on their respectability. Nor would they consider it injurious to their interest, as it is to be presumed that the same number of persons would travel on the other six days of the week? — I cannot take upon myself to say that the large body of coach proprietors would consider it not injurious to their interests, because I dare say there are many who would think it would be prejudicial. In most of the other trades about which the Committee have in- quired, the feeling generally has been that discontinuing traffic on the Sunday would not diminish the amount of traffic in the course of the week, but that, in point of fact, as much money would be spent on a given article, perhaps more on the necessaries of life, and as much work would be well done in the course of the six days as there is now in ihe course of the seven ; do you think that the coach proprietors might reasonably expect that such might be the case in their business likewise ? — I think in many cases, if communication by coaches were stopped on Sunday, other modes of conv2)'ance would be resorted to on Sunday. I am speaking of the trade as it exists at present. With respect to your present business, should you desire to see a diminution of business among those under your employment upon the Sunday ? — I should consider it decidedly favourable to them and to their well-being that they should not be employed on the Sunday. But from the nature of your business do you see any means of di- minishing your occupation, as long as the upper classes continue to give dinners on that day? — I do not see that there is, because if the upper classes continue to order dinners, it follows of course that it is my duty and busint ss to provide them. I can do no more than sug- gest the advantages of another day. Then speaking as a conscientious man, it would be agreeable to you if the upper classes of society did fix on other days rather than Sunday for their great dinners ? — I should most decidedly say so as far as re- gards myself individually, and the comfort and happinessof my servants; for I consider it to be a duty that I owe to them to relieve them as 19 Road Travelling. much as possible from their duties on Sunday ; whether they employ it in rehgious subjects or in any other manner, it gives them the op- portunity, if they thini< proper to improve it ; and if they do not, it still alfords tliem the same advanta<;es which most other people enjoy, that is, a day of repose after a week of hard work. Do you think it would be pos<;ible that you could be protected in the observance of the Sabbath-day in your peculiar trade, or do you suppose that it must be left entirely to the good feeling of the upper classes, as regards the tavern part of your department ? — In reply to that question, I think that it would be difficult to enforce the views of the Committee, which I imagine to be the better observance of the Sabbath-day, because it must in a great measure be left to the good feeling of the public, I apprehend, as I believe the law already con- templates the necessities of travellers and foreigners, and it follows that they must be supplied with necessaries in the same manner as in any other public house of entertainment. Do you conceive that if the upper classes of society desisted from the present practice of frequenting taverns on the Sunday, it would have a beneficial effect on the lower orders of society ? — My expe- rience has been so limited in this business, that I cannot undertake to answer that question. Have you had reason to know that when the lower classes of society are reproached for the non-observance of the Sabbath, they justify themselves in many cases by the example of the rich ? — It has not come under my notice. Have you not heard it in conversations ? — I cannot say that I have heard it expressly. I have heard it laid down as a general maxim, that the poor will imitate the rich, both in their vices and in their virtues. It is my opinion that all respectable persons, whatever their profession, would not be averse to any measure which might tend to give their servants an opportunity of observing the Sabbath-day. Which you conceive essential to the public respectability ? — Cer- tainly, as I consider a proper regard and attention to acknowledged religious or moral duties to be essential to thecharacterof respectability, either public or private. In your profession, is it the custom to deal with fishmongers and butchers on the Sabbath-day ? — I do not know the practice of other individuals, but in my own, nothing whatever is purchased but what is absolutely necessary. Do you find it necessary to make any purchases of the fishmongers or of the butchers on Sunday ? — Occasionally ; supposing that certain orders are made at the after part of the day, and there is not a provi- sion in the house, it becomes necessary. A/r. Benjamin Worthy HoRNE, called in ; and examined. Are you a coach proprietor in great business in London ? — Yes, I am. Where do you reside ? — My residence is in Spring Gardens. Where do you carry on your business? — At four inns in London. Road Trcwelliiig. 20 Which inns? — Golden Cross, Charing Cross ; the George and Blue Boar, Holborn ; the Old Bell, and the Cross Keys in Wood-street Cheapside. Are yoij now in the habit of doing as much business on Sunday as on any other day of the week ? — I am, in some portions of the country ; in some situations I do more business on Sunday than on any other day. Do you think it would be possible, if not totally yet partially, to do away with this travelling on Sunday ? — In some cases it might. Is there a desire on your own part to see such a discontinuance of the Sunday travelling brought about ? — I have expressed it so before to Mr. Smith. You are still of the same opinion? — I am certainly. You are one of several coach proprietors who signed a letter, which is in Mr. Smith's book, expressive of that desire ?— Yes, I am. Notwithstanding the willingness expressed by so many coach pro- prietors to discontinue Sunday travelling on the Portsmouth road, they were unable to effect that desirable object? — I believe that there are letters in the book which state the reasons for that. W^as the reason the fear of competition starting up ? — Not so much on the Portsmouth line of road, it was the fear of the Southampton. If the Southampton proprietors could be induced to unite in your views, the difficulty would be greatly diminished ; would it not? — Cer- tainly ; it is in consequence of both places meeting in the Isle of Wight, which is the leading feature. " Do you think it would be possible by any legislative act, by way of protection, to facilitate that object ? — I do not know that it would require so severe and so harsh a mode of doing away with it, as it might be done away with by mutual agreement. The question does not allude to a harsh and severe enactment, but one framed to meet the wishes of the proprietors themselves? — I think in many cases it could be done ; but where it could not be done, there are existing evils, which I do not know how they could be remedied but by resorting to stage-coaches. If the stage-coaches were now prevented from travelling on Sunday, what do you think would be the effect? — Then that would be increas- ing another mode of travelling by posting. Four passengers may post at nearly the same expense as the coach fare, and four persons would club and come to London by a post-chaise, as is done now frequently. Do you mean on Sunday? — On all days; on Sundays more parti- cularly. . Is not the holding of Smithfield and other markets in London on Monday one great means of filling Sunday coaches? — Yes, within 100 miles of London. Do the people who frequent the markets come a greater distance than 100 miles from London on Sunday ? — Yes ; not in great numbers ; they come from Wales. Do you conceive that if the Smithfield market were held on Tues- day, instead of Monda}', the market would cease to be a motive for Sunday travelling?— That market alone would not do it; there arc 21 Road Travelling. other markets more considerable, the corn market more particularly so ; and I believe on the Stock Exchange more business is presumed to be done on the Monday than on any other day, in consequence of a larger number of people being in London on that day, and wishing to invest their money to meet their sales. Therefore it would require the discontinuance of various kinds of business on the Monday, the corn trade and others, in order to bring about a diminution of Sunday travelling? — Yes; the corn trade I allude to as much as Smithfield, because I do not consider that an abuse so much as Smithfield, from the beasts being driven up to town and great cruelty used. Are not a great deal of cattle driven into London on Sunday even- ing?— In the immediate neighbourhood, on the previous night; I be- lieve there is only one road the cattle come by, the north road. Do you think that if the corn market and the Smithfield market were both of them changed to another day, there would be a great deal less business on the Stock Exchange ? — I do not know but it would affect the Stock Exchange, inasmuch as a man being induced to come up to London on the Monday for the two markets, and in- vesting his money in the Exchange now, would invest his money at another time. Those parties would not come ap to be in town on Monday, but on Tuesday ? — Of course. How often is the corn-market day ? — Three times a week. What number of persons may be occupied in one day, on the Sun- day for instance, on the road between London and Southampton f — I am not aware of the number of coaches which run in the intermediate towns between Bagshot and London and those places, consequently I cannot tell ; as regards Southampton itself, I believe there are five coaches a day, that would be about 300 horses. How many men would you say there would be to 300 horses ? — Between 30 and 40 men. You would think that there is a desire on the part of such men to see an arrangement carried into effect to give them a day of rest.'' — Of course, I consider that any man would wish for one day's rest if he could have it; and of course he would naturally prefer the Sunday to any other day. If by any means the present practice of travelling on Sunday could be diminished, the wages of the men would not be diminished; would they ? — Our wages run agreeably to the six days and the seven days ; those men that work for the seven days are paid more than those who work for the six. Do you consider that it would be beneficial to your horses to rest one day in seven ? — It so much depends upon the nature of men do- ing their business, because in certain distances and certain stages some men keep five horses, consequently one horse rests one day a week as it is his turn ; but it would be a surer day of rest to every horse to rest on Sunday. Do you conceive, on the whole, that Sunday travelling is advanta- geous to the coach proprietors ? — It depends so much upon the line of Traffic on Canals. 22 country. In some instances the coaches do not pay that run up on the Sunday; but were we not to run, persons would only establish another coach. If you only run a coach to prevent others, the very fact of your running that empty, or comparatively empty, would hold out no temptation to another coach ? — It leaves an opportunity to other coaches to run on Sunday, to ingratiate themselves with those coming up on other days of the week. In such a case, would you not be glad to be protected in your de sire to discontinue Sunday travelling? — Yes. [^For ample coiifirmntioti of the above, see the evidence given by the Lord Bishop qf^ London, and published by the Society for promot' ing the due Observance of the Lord's Day.'] TRAFFIC ON CANALS. Mr. Zachary Langton, called in; and examined. In what business are you engaged ? — A carrier. In what firm ? — One of the firm of Pickford and Co. Is not your business on a very large scale ? — Yes. Throughout the kingdom ? — Not exactly, not much in the west ; we go to Worcester, westward ; but principally in the north, to Liverpool and Manchester. Are you in the habit of carrying on business on the Sunday as well as on other days ? — Yes ; I should say, not to any great degree j I have looked through one of our books this morning, and I find that through the last twelvemonth, from July to the present June, there has been work done at the wharf on nine Sundays, generally over by nine or ten o'clock in the morning. How many men are xisually employed every Sunday morning, do you suppose, at your wharf ? — Sometimes there are very few, some- times only four or five, and sometimes fifteen or sixteen. You are speaking of your wharf in London ? — Yes. But along the whole line of your business are there many em- ployed in the work on Sunday ? — I suppose there are 3 but I cannot give any information at all respecting that. Do your carriers stop on Sunday, or travel on ? — I believe if they have left, they travel on till they arrive on the Sunday morning ; and we send them out at this time of year as late as seven or eight or nine o'clock on the Sunday evening. You have a desire in your establishment to obtain for your men rest upon the Sunday ? — Exactly so, as much as we possibly can -. it is no object of choice with us. Do you mean to say that you regret the necessity of working them at all on the Sunday ? — We do j we should be very glad to do without it. You conceive that it would be very beneficial to the men to give them every opportunity of rest on that day, and to attend a place of worship ■? — Yes. 23 Traffic on Canals. In cases where the men have not that opportunity of observing the Sabbath and attending to religious worship, when engaged on canals and otherwise, do you find that it has an injurious effect upon their morals ? — Certainly ; the crews of the vessels that go along the canal, I should say that I have no great opinion of their morals ; much difficulty we have in keeping them in any thing like morals. Are the crews of such vessels on the canals in the habit of attending any place of religious worship ? — That I am not aware of at all ; we have no control over them except when they are in our employment. Generally speaking, do they spend their Sundays in sailing on in the canal ? — Yes ; such as have left London proceed on their journey on Sunday. How many days does it take to perform your longest journeys on the canals ? — Six days and five nights to Manchester, I think, I am not quite sure. Those people of which I first spoke were sorters on the wharf. Then it is the desire in your establishment to fix the time of starting of your boats on Sunday evening, that they may arrive in Manchester before the following Sunday morning? — Yes. Do your men start every evening? — Yes ; I suppose we have pretty nearly 100 boats. Therefore the boats that start on the last days of the week must necessarily travel on the Sunday ? — Yes, those that go the long journeys ; but then some go to Oxford and Leicester, and so on. How long does it take to Oxford ? — I suppose about three days. In point of fact, it is no part of your arrangements that your canal boats in their voyages should start on the Sunday ? — No, those that are on their passages ; if a boat is on her passage it is necessary to deliver the goods on Monday morning, and she must go on. How many boats have you in your employment ? — Between 90 and 100. How many men are there usually in each boat ? — I should say four on an average ; the captain, with generally three men. You have admitted, in your previous evidence, that your men are far from being what you could wish them in their moral conduct ? — I am not an acting partner in the business ; but I know that we are obliged to take such precautions against pilfering by these men, that it gives me no favourable opinion of their honesty or their mo- rality either, but I know very little of it myself. Have you had any complaints of your men, and consequent pro- secutions against them in the country through which they pass 1 — I should say not many, but there is something of the sort I believe going on now ; but it does occasionally happen. There were some men on one line who in the night time got into some gentleman's fishery and took his fish. In fact, is it not the case that there are no men so much ovit of control as vour canal-men ? — Yes. Traffic on Canals. 24 Are not the immoral lives of your canal-men a constant source of anxiety to you ? — Certainly, it is. Mr. James Panther, called in ; and examined. What is your business ? — My occupation is a clerk with a canal carrier. In what house ? — John Whitehouse and Sons, carriers from Birmingham to London. Are they in the habit of carrying on their business on Sunday ? — They have been in the habit of working their boats on Sunday till within the last two months ; they have come to the resolution of not doing so in consequence of the state of the men ; by their not having proper instruction, they cannot trust them with any thing. They have found that by depriving the men of the Sabbath-day they have become demoralized ? — Entirely so. Has there been sufficient time, since they departed from that practice, to see whether anj'^ good effect has been produced on the men ? — For my own part I can say, that since they have left off working on Sunday, when I have loaded the boats, I have noticed they have been loaded without an oath being sworn ; previous to this there would be an oath almost every word. Last week there was a boat laden out without an oath. Perhaps if I were to tell it to persons who know the boatmen, they would not credit what I say. Mention some of the bad effects on the men from abusing the Sabbath : did they swear inordinately ? — Yes. You have likewise said the masters could not repose confidence in them ? — There was no confidence reposed in them by their em- ployers, so much so that they required a quarter of the boat to lock up the spirits, wines, furniture, plate, &c., so that they should be secure, in addition to the locks put on them. In fact, they became quite dishonest? — Decidedly so. Were the men who in their previous habits had been considered of good character before coming into this business } — They are brought up to it from children, and they are deprived of any means of instruction, consequently they are entirely depraved. Since you have broken in on the practice of doing business on Sundays, have you found the men, having the opportvmity, willing to go to church ? — We invariably every Sabbath-day have four men ; we keep them in on Saturday, and they stop till Sunday evening ; they go to church generally ; I do not say every man ; there must be one stop with the boat to guard the goods, the others go to a place of worship willingly. Is the Sunday equally respected throughout the whole line, in your business, from London to Manchester ? — It is equally respect- ed as regards Whitehouse and Son's boats. In addition to being employed by the canal carriers, I am connected with a society which is appointed for instructing those men, and, generally speaking, the men who are deprived of going to a place of worship on the Sab- 25 Traffic on Canals. bath-day, and are engaged in work on the mornings, are indifferent whether they attend a place of worship or not ; those men who are engaged on the Sabbath morning, or a part of the day, or nearly the whole of it, will not attend a place of worship j whereas those who are not engaged at all do attend some place of worship or other. Part of your men are still employed ? — No ; I am speaking as to boatmen generally. Men employed on canals generally have been m the habit of working on Sundays as well as other days ? — Yes. They have been so from their youth ? — Yes. And you have found that they have gradually become worse and worse, so that you have resolved to try the expedient of giving them the Sabbath ? — Yes. While the men were in the degraded state you have described, and working on the Sunday, did they ever express a wish for the Sunday as a day of rest ? — Invariably ; I have reproved sin in all its forms ; swearing, for instance ; when I have done so, they say, " What is the use of leaving off one sin, we are obliged to break one commandment, and if we break one, we will break the whole 3" that was the general principle they advocated, and they put it in practice in a great measure. From your observation among the working-class, is it your opi- nion not only that those who have been well brought up, but those who are in a degraded state for want of religious education, have so much right feeling left in them, that they desire to have a day of rest provided for them .''—Decidedly. I have spoken to those who are engaged in the employ of Messrs. Whitehouse, and there is not one but has said they would readily receive it as a boon, and rejoice if it could be done. What do you think of the feeling of the masters generally in your line of business 3 provided the law were made to apply to all, do you think they woxild desire to see Sunday traffic put an end to ? — I spoke to a canal carrier about a month ago, a proprietor, and he said it was the desire of his heart it should be so, but it did appear there wanted a union to unite them together, that one might not injure another. Suppose the Legislature were to step in and make a law compell- ing you all to desist from business, do you conceive the people in the trade would consider it as an oppression or an advantage ? — I have spoken to persons in the trade since my employers have left off working on the Sabbath-day ; they have been disappointed in re- ceiving their goods 3 goods leaving on Saturday they do not receive sometimes until Thursday instead of Wednesday : they have said, " We must make our calculation accordingly ; we shall continue you as our carriers." In whose employ were you before ypu got to the Messrs. White- house ? — In Messrs. Pickfords'. Why did you leave ? — I M'as discharged in consequence of refus- ing to unload four boats on a Sabbath morning. No. IV. c Traffic on Canals. -26 Did Pickfords and Co. continue to work on Sunday ? — Yes. Do you conceive, if the law were changed, Messrs. Pickford and Co. would gladly acquiesce in desisting from work ? — From what I have heard them say I believe they would gladly. How many men were employed by Messrs. Pickford on a Sunday ? — According to my own calculation, from the knowledge I have of their business, I believe about 300 or 350 men, boatmen ; I do not reckon those who are engaged on the wharfs, nor those engaged on the road, but actually boatmen. How many men would you take on you to say altogether are em- ployed to work on the Sunday, in consequence of Messrs. Pickford carrying on business on that day, men and boys ? — I cannot form a correct idea of the extent of the business, it is very extensive ; neither can I learn from the clerks, or any one engaged with them, to what extent ; they do not calculate it, but it is very considerable. I calculate 360 boatmen, and, men and boys employed altogether, you might say 100 more. I do not speak from any authority, I have nothing more than my own observation. How many men are there in the employ of Messrs. Whitehouse ? — We have 40 boatmen. What is the state of morals among the boatmen generally ? — They are very bad ; I do not know that there is any class of men in this country that is so bad. To what do you attribute that ? — To want of proper instruction, that is chiefly to be attributed to their being deprived of the Sab- bath-day. They are in the habit of having women on board with them con- tinually, are they not .'' — They are not allowed women on board their boats further than if they are known to be married^ people ; the captain of the boat is allowed to have his wife ; the men generally in London are drawn into brothels, and associate with females of the worst description. Mr. Charles Sibley, called in ; and examined. What is your business ? — I have a warehouse in the city ; I am engaged as a minister preaching to the boatmen in the city. Have the boatmen yet had an opportunity of attending to the Sunday as a day of rest ? — Very little, so far as I have had an op- portunity of seeing ; perhaps once in six weeks they are in London, and if they should happen to come in at a certain part of the Sab- bath, though they might in the evening come to a place of worship, if that was the case, yet for six weeks they would have no such op- portunity. Do they do so ? — In the chapel where I have preached I have seen 30, 40, or 50 come ; but they generally say in excuse that they are not dressed, that they are fatigued, and want to go to bed. Have you generally found that the boatmen, taken as a body, are a demoralized class of society ? — I should conceive they are very demoralized ; they have neither the fear of God nor of man, other- wise than the authority of man is upon them. Notwithstanding their demoralized state, do you think they are 27 Traffic on Canals. desirous of a day of rest, and of instruction on that day ? — I con- ceiv^e they are desirous of a day of rest, and instruction would be highly beneficial to them, and that they may be made as honest as other classes of the community. Do you conceive that they are desirous of instruction ? — Why, when men have had nothing but bad examples before them, and nothing but a life of wickedness, they have not so ardent a desire for good as others ; but taking that into consideration, I should say, perhaps they would from a sordid motive ; they would like to sit still on the Sabbath-day, or from a desire to enjoy more vice. There must be among a variety of men a variety of wishes ; but when the Sabbath is by some compulsory mode compelled to be ob- served, ifthey are obligedto observe it, religious and benevolent people have an opportunity of carrying on their labour of love with them, and accomplishing a great good among a wretched class of society. It has been in evidence, that individuals in different trades, how- ever they may now be employed, are actually desirous of having a seventh day of rest ; do you perceive that the same feeling extends itself to the boatmen ? — Yes, speaking generally of them, the major part of them, I should say they would. No doubt all of them like it, provided it were done on a uniform system by law. In the business to which you belong, no business is done on the Sabbath-day ? — No. Consequently your people have an opportunity of attending to public worship ? — Yes, and most certainly do. Have not the canal boatmen, from their peculiar circumstances, and from the occupation in which they have been engaged, been almost entirely precluded from attending a place of worship ? — Yes, from the religious means of instruction. Is not the state of morals among that class of men peculiarly depraved? — It is. You infer that there is a hope, if they had the same advantages, as other men, that they would be restored to a better state ? — I should say this, and I speak experimentally, if the means are af- forded them of hearing, and understanding and learning as other men do, they are as desirous of learning. I have seen instances of it where some of the most vicious have become virtuous by listen- ing to the things that are good, and having opportunities of doing it. They have become reformed when placed under religious in- struction ? — Yes. LONDON: Printed by EUertoii — Yes. Which you conceive must be a serious loss tx) the other persons in the line ? — Certainly, it must be. Do you you know whether other tradespeople have closed on the Sunday ? — Several co-operated with us, and seemed anxious to cease to do business ; there are two butchers who do no business at all on the Sunday morning ; those two butchers serve the principal inn at Richmond. When do they send home their meat ? — On Saturday night ; I imagine, if the proprietor of our principal inn was to send to them, they would not serve him ; in fact, I know it as a fact that they have ceased to serve on the Sunday. In fact, there is less desecration of the Sunday than there used to be in that particular part ? — Yes, in that particular part ; but not from the influx of company and the manner in which the public- houses are occupied. Is the influx of company very great from London on Sunday ? —Yes. Both by land and by water ? — Yes. Greater on the Sunday than on the week-day r — Yes. Of the very low classes ? — Yes. Does that lead to an increase of business in the town on that par- ticular day ? — It does, in a particular manner : I should imagine, that the fruiterers sell a great deal of fruit, the pastry-cooks pastry, and the public-houses, of course, a great deal of beer, and spirits and wine. As far as public-houses and taverns are concerned, does it lead to a good deal of excess ? —Sometimes of course. And on Sunday evenings are you disturbed by them ? — Sometimes. Is there any wish on the part of the people of Richmond to have the day of rest better observed ? — I think with a great many indeed. You think they would consider it an advantage, if by some general provision all were compelled to observe the day, as far as relates to business being done on the Sunday ? — I think they would, most of them ; not if it prevented the influx of company ; they would feel that an injury ; but as far as regards buying and selling in the town, I consider it might be done on Saturday night. It would seem that there is no reason why all the provisions that are required for the country visitors should not be got on the Saturday night ? — I have never seen any reason why they should not get it on Saturday night. And, in point of fact, at the principal houses they do get it on the Saturday night ? — Yes ; and the class of persons that you would consider would most want things on the Sunday, get them on Saturday ; and I am quite sure that the innkeepers would send to us less frequently than they do, if such a law were passed. Is not the influx of Sunday visitors so uncertain, that it may be a matter of convenience to have shops to go to to serve them on the 17 RichmonJ. Sunday ? — Yes, it is, certainly ; still I imagine that that is remedied by the butchers sujjplying them. Are there butchers that will supply at any hour that may be re- quired ? — Yes. It is only the more conscientious part of the trade that have refused to do so ? — -Yes. Are there any public conveyances and private carriages which arrive at Richmond on the Sunday ? — Yes, a great number. Can you inform the Committee what number of stage-coaches arrive ? — No, I do not know exactly. I think in the course of the day there may be from 20 to 30 of our own local stages, and some- times we notice other stages that come into the town, thinking they can bring passengers in or take them out. At what time do they usually arrive ? — I think the first arrives at 1 1 o'clock, and they continue to come in all day. All church time? — Yes, till four o'clock in the afternoon ; and then they cease coming in, and almost immediately after that some begin to return. What may be the average number of visitors on the Sunday by steam-boats and by the water generally ? — I do not know from my own observations, but I should guess something about 500 or 600. At what hour do they arrive at Richmond ? — I should say generally about twelve or one o'clock. If I take a walk by the water side, I observe one or two coming up from one to two o'clock, and perhaps, according to the time of the tide, others may have arrived. It depends upon the tide ? — Yes, very much, of course. But what may be the earliest hour at which they arrive when the tide is favourable? — I should think they cannot possibly get in before 1 1 J I do not think it possible. I should think that none at any time has arrived before 11. Are not many persons that frequent the hotels on Sunday at Richmond amongst the greatest and most influential persons in the country ? — Yes. Do you happen to know whether they ever attend public worship on that day? — I should think, from the time they arrive, they could not ; of course, I have no opportunity of knowing. Families staying at inns, I know that they attend at church, because I have been ap- plied to frequently for sittings for them. At what hour may they arrive ? — I should say they do not arrive at a time that they would be enabled to go to church ; they do not come till from 12 to three o'clock. I think all connected with my business would be 'very much pleased with any order to regard the strict observance of the Sabbath, because it must annoy us, and does annoy us, that those persons should keep open shop when we shut up ; they would much rather, for various reasons, that they should be compelled to close. Are you at all aware to about what hour of the night the public- houses in Richmond are generally kept open on the Sunday? — Eleven o'clock is the general hour for them to close. Is there a magisterial regulation to close them after that hour } — Yes ; and the orders given to the constables or policemen are very strict ; but I do not conceive they are strict enough. No. v. B IticJitnond. 18 Do you conceive that they usually shut at 11 o'clock ? — No, they do not ; they shut, but they keep the company in. What are the general complaints and inconveniences to which the people of Richmond are put by this great influx of company on Sunday ? — The whole town being of course frequently in a state of confusion the whole day ; instead of its being a day of rest, it is a day of pleasure. Then do those who are religiously disposed desire to see the day more peaceably observed ?— There is no doubt of it, certainly. Should you say that that feeling was general ? — It is very general amongst one class, who are very religious, perhaps, but not amongst the other, who are not very religious ; the first class would be pleased to see any thing of that kind take place, and the other per- haps are careless and indifferent about it. From yovir own knowledge, are you prepared to say that there is a general feeling prevailing amongst men in your trade, that all the business of the week might be done as well in six days, as it is now in the greater part of seven? — Yes, I think the opinion is very general Is it a growing opinion ? — Yes, I think those who did not think so 10 years since, think so now; and I have one reason for forming that opinion, because I think the poor man who is paid at the public- house on Saturday night will very frequently stop there, and spend one-half of his week's earnings in drink, because he knows that his wife can get her shop things, both butcher's meat and grocery, and every thing of that sort, on Sunday morning. Do you know at about what period on the Saturday the wages of the labourers in and about Richmond, to make their purchases at the shops, are paid ? — I think respectable masters pay their men at six o'clock, immediately after they cease to work. So that they have time to make their purchases at the Saturday evening market ? — Certainly. Do you know whether there is any practice at Richmond of pay- ing wages on the Sunday morning ? — I do not know that I know it ; but perhaps there are some that pay on Sunday morning. Does the system prevail at Richmond of what is called establish- ing pay-tables at public-houses? — Yes, it does. By whose consent is that pay-table kept ; is it done by the master of the workmen, or by his foreman or clerk ? — I should say by the master, as far as I know ; I think it is done for the benefit of the master, who sends his cheque to the publican, and he provides him with the silver, which he otherwise would have to run about to get. Is the publican authorized to pay himself for the liquor taken out during the week, before he pays the workmen ? — I think he takes very good care to do it, though he is not authorized to do it j a workman might, if he insisted upon it, receive his wages. Has ever any case come to your knowledge where any thing of that kind was done ? — Yes, certainly Will you mention any case ? — I know one instance of a man having 14s. out of 28s. to pay in the course of the week. Then in all probability that man would sit on during the week. l9 liichmond. and make a greater deduction from his week's wages ? — No doubt of it, and become a pauper in the end. Do not their wives and families complain of this custom ? — No doubt of it. You are aware of that from your own knowledge ? — Certainly I am. Have you observed any increase in drunkenness or disorder at Richmond since the establishment of beer-houses ? — I think so, certainly. On the Sunday ? — Yes. What class of persons usually resort to the beer-liouses ? — The lower orders, certainly. Not often the class abo\ e them ? — Not any, I should say, from my own knowledge. Do you consider the beer-houses more injurious than the public- houses ? — I think they are ; I think if the shopkeepers were com- pelled to shut up on Sunday, the poor man would go home to his wife and family, and give them his earnings, instead of stopping at the public-house and spending great part of them. Do you think that at Richmond the workmen are usually paid their wages on Saturday evening? — I think the respectable part of the masters usually pay them at that time. Mr. William Steele, called in ; and examined. Where do you reside ? — At Richmond. What is your business? — A grocer. Have you heard the evidence of the last witness? — Yes. Do you generally agree in the sentiments he has expressed ? — Yes. And in the description which he has given of Richmond on the Sunday ? — Yes ; exactly so. Do you yourself do any business on that day ? — No, How many years have you discontinued ? — From eight to ten years. Mr. Larchin and myself discontinued together ; we took a great deal of trovible to get the shops closed on the Sunday ; we interfered with no other trade but grocers j we went round to them, and got them to sign a paper which we had drawn up, and they generally agreed to it, with the exception of one or two, and they said that they would close, but after closing for about two or three Sundays, they opened again on the sly, and from that time it in- creased : but I believe Mr. Larchin and myself have never opened. I have never opened : by chance I do serve a customer, if any body has forgotten, on Sunday, but perhaps that does not happen once a month. Then a few, who do keep open on that day, monopolize what you term the Sunday trade ? — We lose that ; it is a sacrifice on our part. I recollect, on Sundaj- morning, before the shops were closed, I have had so much to do that I scarcely had time to put my clothes on for Sunday time, aiid took as much money on Sunday morning as I did any day of the week. Have you found your week-day business suffer from your refusing to serve on Sunday ? — No doubt it must to a certain degree. B 2 Richmond. 20 Is it considered a hardship in the trade that a few individuals should monopolize the counter trade on the Sunday morning ? — I consider it a hard case that my neighbour should run away with the profits of my business. Have the magistrates at Richmond never attempted to interfere in this subject? — No. Have you any reason to believe that the Society for the Suppres- sion of Vice have made application to the magistrates .'' — I believe they did about seven years since. But nothing was done thereupon .'' — Nothing. Does the system of pay-tables exist at Richmond at the public- houses, for the payment of workmen ? — Yes. Do you conceive that they are injurious ? — No doubt. Do the masters send the money to the publican, or do they send a cheque ? — They generally send a cheque, and the publican provides change ; and some publicans I have known at Richmond deduct from the wages of a man for the price of a pot of beer, whether he was there or not, whether he went there to receive his wages or not. That was what was called for the good of the house ? — Yes. Do the men complain of receiving their wages in this way at the public-houses ? — No. Do you know any thing of the state of Kew Gardens on the Sun- day ? — I was in Kew Gardens about two years since. Are they numerously attended? — More attended by children and girls and boys, and people of that sort ; not a great many respect- able people, I should conceive. On what days of the week are they open ? — They are open on Sunday only. At what time of the year ? — From Midsummer to Michaelmas. Do you know any thing of Eel Pie Island ? — A very little. Is it much frequented on Sunday ? — I believe it is very much. By what class of people ? — All descriptions of people coming from Xiondon. Is there much spirits drunk there .'' — Yes. Is there a public-house in the island ? — Yes ; a public-house newly rebuilt on a large scale. Is there not an increase of travelling by the private conveyances to Richmond ? — I conceive that it is encouraged by those travelling on the Sunday who ought not to travel on the Sunday, and there is no excuse for them. Are there many private carriages that come to Richmond on the Sunday ? — A great many. In the description generally of the manner in which the Sunday is passed at Richmond, do you agree with Mr. Larchin, the last witness ? — Quite so ; and I should very much wish to see all the shops closed. Is that the opinion of the people generally in your trade ? — It is. Do they wish to see any diminution of the gaieties on Sunday ? — That I cannot say ; the profit of a great number of the people at Richmond depends on the Sunday ; it seems interwoven with their living ; whilst those who make it a point of conscience, or a point of necessity, to have the Sabbath as a day of rest, suffer. I do not 2 1 liichinond. set myself down as a rellgioug man, but I conceive that the Sunday is observed for a very different purpose from what it was originally appointed for } we are told to keep it holy, and it is kept in any way but holy. Do you conceive the manner in which the Sabbath is observed at Richmond, is injurious to the morals of the town generally ? — ^There is not the least doubt of it. Mr. James Carless,jm«., called in ; and examined. Where do you reside ? — George Street, Richmond. What is your business ? — A baker. Is there much business in your trade done on the Sunday at Richmond ? — A great deal. Do you do business on that day ? — As little as possible ; I cannot help doing some. Is there a desire in your trade to have the Sunday business dis- continued ? — With some of them ; others do it all day long ; they bake the French rolls and cottage bread, and supply the families all day long nearly. Do some desist from carrying on that part of the trade while others continue it ? — We have a law to stop us from making French rolls on the Sunday, but it is defective ; it allows us to sell to tra- vellers, in case of urgent necessity, and therefore we cannot put it in force. But some conscientious men do desist from doing so on Sunday, do they not ? — Yes ; I do not wish to do work, but I cannot avoid baking the dinners. Is not your work during the week very laborious ? — Yes. Requiring, therefore, a day of rest, one day in seven ? — Yes. Is there a strong desire among your journeymen to get a day of rest ? — Yes ; they very much complain of working on the Sunday morning. Does the journeyman get additional wages for working on Sun- day ? — None at all. Then it is only the desire of gain on the part of the master that induces them to go on ? — That circumstance is the whole of it. And the class that are conscientious, and do not carry on work on the Sunday, suffer ? — Of course they lose their business. Do they express displeasure towards persons in the same line who carry on their trade on the Sunday? — Yes j I feel great dis- pleasure with the other bakers. Do they remonstrate with their neighbours about it? — It is no use to talk with them. Do you conceive that if the law was made strict and strictly en- forced, it would be a benefit ? — Yes ; the present law would make a great deal of difference, only it is a little defective j it says, " In case of urgent necessity for travellers," we should let them have bread. And that urgent necessity of travellers is occurring all day long } — Yes j all day long, from seven in the morning till late at night. Are they that class of persons to whose condition the words Nichmond. '3,1 " urgent necessity" can with propriety be applied? — Noj by no means ; they are people whose friends are coming down.' They are rather parties of pleasure ? — Yes, People whom you do not consider properly to be included in the term " travellers in urgent necessity ? " — Not at all. Do you bake rolls on the Sunday ? — No ; only dinners. Is it the practice in Richmond to bake any thing but meat on Sunday? — Yes ; the pies and tarts j there are a few words that allow them to do that. Do all the bakers of Richmond bake pies for dinner? — Yes. For what class of people are they usually baked ? — Tradespeople and labouring peoj^le. Do most of the tradesijeople employ bakers for that purpose ? — A great many of them. Do you conceive that the tradespeople would be put to much in- convenience, if the bakers were prevented from selling or baking on the Sunday ? — Yes ; I dare say they would, unless they had a cold one. How much do you charge them for baking their dinners ? — Two- pence ; and they could have it done very well on Saturday for three halfpence. What expense would it be to them to bake their dinners at home ? — I do not know. Do the persons that employ your oven use fires on the Sunday ? — Most of them. It would cost them no additional fire, then^ to bake on Sunday ? —No. They have also a servant or some person in the house during morning service on Sunday, have they not ? — Yes. So that having a fire at home, and a servant at home, no addi- tional servant would be required ? — No. It would not keep one individual from attending the church who is not otherwise already kept ? — No. Have you heard the evidence of the last witnesses ? — Yes. Do you agree generally in the description they have given of Richmond on the Sunday ? — Yes, certainly. I never go down to the water-side on Simday. But the numbers that arrive are very great, are they not ? — Yes. Is there a general desire, on the part of the tradesmen in Rich- mond, to see the Sunday better observed than it is at present ? — I think there is with one part, but the other part are more anxious to get money. Would you venture to say that a large proportion of the respect- able tradesmen are desirous to have the day better observed than it is at present? — I do not know whether a large proportion are ; there are a great number that are not. The temptations to violate the Sabbath in Richmond are very strong, are they not } — Yes ; very strong. Do you conceive that the class who employ your oven on the Sunday do actually avail themselves of the leisure thereby afforded them to go to church .'' — No. Have you, from your own personal information, reason to believe . 23 Rtchinoud. the coutrary ? — I have reason to believe that they do not go to church or chapel, or anywhere else. Have not a large proportion of the respectable community, who do go to church, the means of baking their meals at home, without sending to the baker r — Yes. I do not think that there are above two or three out of the 50 or 60 people that employ the baker, go to any place of worship ; they go nowhere. Is that the result of nine years' experience at Fulham ? — Yes ; and seven years at Richmond also. Mr. Benjamin Gandee, called in; and examined. Where do you reside ? — Hill Street, Richmond. What is your business ? — I am a drawing-master myself. Have you heard the evidence of the last witnesses, on the manner in which the Sunday is passed in Richmond? — The greater part of it. Do you agree in the description which they have given of the gaiety and dissipation of the day ? — I do certainly. Do you think that there is any desire on the part of the respect- able inhabitants of Richmond to see the day better observed ? — On the part of many there is 3 I do not know that there is on the part of the majority 3 I think that many of them get their livelihood by the gaiety, and they would not consequently wish it to cease. Is not the temptation at Richmond to break the Sabbath very great ? — Yes. Do you agree with the two last witnesses in the opinion of the numbers that arrive ? — I think it has been rather imderrated than overrated. Does it lead to much excess and riot in the after part of the day ? — Yes, decidedly so ; I have had frequent opportunities of seeing 3 I go to a place of worship, which leads me to pass the coach-offices, and I have observed persons in a state of intoxication on the coaches, and about the coaches, and a great deal of quarrelling and swearing 3 and I have frequently seen accidents happen in conse- quence of persons driving who were in a state of intoxication, I should say, or approaching to it. I should be very much pleased, for my own part, and many others would, I know, to see the Sab- bath-day observed as a day of rest 3 it would be a valuable thing to the poor man 5 in Richmond, many of them, who do not get living on the Sabbath-day, particularly the families of the poor ; a cessa- tion for labour, I mean. Whether it is observed as the Lord's day is a different question, to my mind 3 I should be pleased to see it observed so, that they might get rest 3 and I think the Legislature might impose it upon them, that they should observe it as a day of rest. You would not regard a legislative enactment, which would afford that opportunity to such persons of having a day of rest, as an op- pression ? — Not at all. Have you any belief that the lower classes complain of the loss of the day of rest in Richmond ? — Yes 5 some of them complain that they are worked too hard, by being obliged to work on the Ruhtnond. 'i-f Sabbath-day, and on other days also ; the Journeymen, and per- sons of that description. Do you conceive that there is a growing feeling of that nature among the people? — Yes, decidedly so. Do you ever hear them make any remarks as to the way in which the Sabbath is passed by the rich and wealthier classes ? — Yes ; I think there is a remark of that kind made, that the poor think that they should not be deprived of the opportunity of enjoying them- selves on the Sabbath, while the rich are permitted to do so unmo- lested. The Hon. rind Rev. Gerard T. Noel, called in ; and examined. Do you reside at Richmond ? — Yes. You are curate of that parish r — I am curate of that parish. The Committee examined yesterday a great number of your parishioners, who describe the great influx of the company into the town on the Sunday ; will you have the goodness to state from your observation, what effect upon the moral and the religious habits of the place such an influx of company has produced ? — I consider that the influence produced upon the moral habits of the place by the influx of strangers is extremely injurious. The numbers of persons in boats, the numbers in the inns, the numbers in the meadows, the quantity of carriages that arrive at Richmond, make it completely like a fair- day. When I have sometimes to go to church on the Sunday morn- ing, I am passed by a great quantity of carriages, driving as if hurrying to a race ; and often as I return home in the evening, I am passed by a number of gigs and carriages of all sorts that are going back to town with people half tipsey ; indeed it often gives me the complete idea of the breaking up of a race course, the num- bers and the noise are so great. I consider that the effect pro- duced, in the first place, upon the lower orders, is extremely painful. The numbers disembarked from the river, and that arrive in carriages, produce a continual temptation and excitement to the poor of Richmond, so as to induce numbers to absent themselves from the church ; I particularly perceive this of a summer evening j for this reason, the congregation of an evening in the winter is much greater than it is in the summer. To provide also for this influx of strangers, the butchers' shops are open till church-time ; the green- grocers and fruit shops are open the whole day. I consider that through the operation of the beer-shops likewise the injurious effects produced by this great influx of strangers is very fatal ; the poor are the more readily led to frequent those places ; and through the external scene of gaiety and excitement on the river, the moral habits of families are much injured. The immoral influence exerted by these circumstances is painfully felt in the habits of drunkenness among the poor j the good order and comfort of the other inmates of the family are extremely injured by these habits of drunkenness which I think to be very much generated and augmented by the se- ductive scene presented at Richmond on the Sabbath. I have very little doubt that a great quantity of money is brought into the place, and that many individuals may derive great benefit in a temporal point of view ; but I consider, judging of human happiness by social 25 Richmond. domestic order, kindly affections and temperate habits, that the contiguity of Richmond to London, through this influx of strangers, is a severe injury to Richmond in a moral point of view. It per- fectly disables the parochial ministry from exercising that influence for which a national church was instituted. The foreign influence, if I may so call it, is on this account much greater than the domestic influence. As it respects the young also, this influence is very de- structive. In vain we endeavour to instruct our national-school children in the duties of the Sabbath-day, while the example held out to them on each Sabbath evening is so extremely opposite to every thing in which they have been previously instructed. This is no slight evil. No one can read the police reports without the ob- servation, that there is scarcely a criminal but can trace the com- mencement of his evil career to the violation of the Sabbath-day. This violation of the Sabbath I consider very flagrant and apparent at Richmond ; so that it is almost impossible for the young people to resist the influence which the scene of thoughtless gaiety pre- sents to them : I therefore regard this flowing in of strangers to be the greatest hindrance to the efforts of the parochial ministers ; and I am sorry to say this evil is increasing. The number of steam- boats is greater than it was when I came to Richmond ; and I perceive that the deterioration of public manners on the Sabbath is very great. If the police of Richmond was rotas excellent as it is, things would have been much worse ; the police of Richmond is very good. The efforts made by our police under the magistrates are exceedingly great : I do not suppose that there is anyplacein which such a desecration of the Sabbath could continue with so little, per- haps, of real violent aggression upon public decency as at Richmond ; I would speak in the highest terms of the exertions of the police at Richmond. But notwithstanding this, our Sunday is like a fair- day or a race-day. I consider the beneficial effect, to say nothing of religion, which the institution of the Sabbath has upon social order and upon the general habits of society, is greatly lost at Richmond. Will you mention what class of individuals frequent Richmond on the Sunday ? — To the best of my knowledge they are all classes ) I meet carriages of all sorts, from carriages with coronets down to common gigs and hackney coaches. I imagine that the persons that frequent Richmond on' a Sunday are of all ranks. The evil of which you complain is to such an extent as to render it impossible to correct it by any means, as long as the present sys- tem continues ? — Perfectly impossible. As I have already said, the foreign excitement is go much greater than the domestic, that even persons who would wish to hallow the Sabbath cannot hallow it. Can you suggest any remedy to induce the people to desist trom the breach of the Sabbath at Richmond ? — I cannot suggest any remedy ; as long as we are subject to the influx of thousands of people from London, it is in vain for us to attempt to do much. The Committee had it in evidence yesterday from an individual, that he abstained from all work in his trade on Sunday, and that he did not conceive that he had thereby suffered any pecuniary loss, inasmuch as his neighbours who did work on the Sunday, and gained Richmond. 26 so much money,* sqiiandered so much more iu di'inkiug ; should you say that the money gained at Richmond does not produce per- manent prosperity? — I should say, with respect to the tradespeople, that I should suppose it did ; but the result of this among the poor must be pa.infully felt by the increase of poor-rates and pauperism ; for drvmkenness is a vice which accelerates pauperism beyond every other ; make a man drink, and you bring him soon upon the parish : so that I consider, upon the long run, that this is a great injury. Are there many instances of persons gaining much mone}^ and yet having recourse to the poor-rates ? — Yes, if you mean persons able to gain much money by their own labour. Yov consider that the great excitement in the town on the Sunday leads to much intoxication, which impoverishes many of the lower orders .?— Yes, in connexion with the beer-shops in the parish, which have very much increased. Are the beer- shops in ycmr parish much complained of ? — I believe they are ; and to their injurious effects I can strongly speak from my own knowledge. Are you aware of there being a considerable body of tradesmen at Richmond, who are desirous of being prevented from selling upon the Lord's day, by some improvement of the law which would affect all classes ? — I am. I know a great many who would be very glad to be thus restrained ; who feel the present to be a very painful sys- tem, and who would be very glad if it could be altered. Do you think that any of the lower classes make an excuse for their neglect of the Sabbath, on account of the large influx of com- pany ? —With respect to ostlers and persons connected with the inns, this must of necessity be the case. Do you think that if the higher classes of society were to abstain from the Richmond trips on tlie Sabbath-day, it would be attended with beneficial conseqviences to the lower classes } — If the middle classes likewise were, it would ; but as long as the steam-boats carry the middle classes there, of course the diminution of the evil would be comparatively small 5 every thing helps, however, to aug- ment the evil iiifluence. Have you any further observations which you wish to make to the Committee ? — What I feel very much disposed to press upon the Committee, is the painful effects which, as the minister of the place, I feel the present system to have upon the moral habits of the parishioners ; we are met at every turn by this external influence of strangers, which more or less paralyzes all our efforts, and renders the parochial ministry very painfully small, as compared to what it might be, if we could bring to bear the kindly ministrations of Christianity upon the mass of our population. Are you aware that Sunday travelling is contrary to the law of the land ? — I am not aware that it is. Then do you think that it being the case that Sunday travelling is contrary to the law of the land, if that law were of sufficient force, and if that law were properly administered, it would be of great benefit to the morals of your parish .?— I consider that it would be the greatest moral blessing to Richmond. 27 Liverpool. LIVERPOOL. Mr. David Rowland, called in ; and examined. You reside at Liverpool ? — I have resided there for about 18 years. In what line of business are you ? — I am at present agent to the Liverpool Bootle Waterworks Company, for the shipping department. Have you had occasion during your residence at Liverpool to ob- serve the manner in which the Lord's day is observed generally in that town r — I have. Have you had reason to lament any infringement of the Lord's day r — It has become very notorious for some time, that the Sab- bath profanation in Liverpool has been on the increase ; it is matter of remark and lamentation. Are the public-houses the means of the breach of the Sabbath in Liverpool r — They are so. Intoxication prevails to a great extent? — To a very alarming extent. Do the parties that are drunk in the early part of Sunday usually commence the practice on Saturday evening i* — In many instances. Are the masters in Liverpool in the habit of paying their work- men at an early hour on Saturday evening, or at a late hour ? — I have been given to understand there are many masters who do not pay their workmen till Saturday evening ; there are exceptions in which I know they pay their men on a Friday evening. As to those that pay on a Saturday evening, what hour do you call a late hour ? — I should say generally from five to nine o'clock on Saturday evening. Are the shops for the necessaries of life open till l^ o'clock at Liverpool ? — Many of them. So that still an opportunity is given for the poor to purchase provisions on Saturday night ? — There are ample opportunities. Do many of the poor purchase provisions on the Sunday morn- ing ? — Very many. Have you the system of pay-tables at Liverpool ? — I cannot speak positively to that fact ; I have heard some allusion made to a circumstance of that kind. I cannot speak to it with sufficient distinctness ; my impression is that there are many such. That there are masters who pay their workmen at public-houses ? — Some of the lower order of masters. But not so the respectable traders ? — Certainly not. Do you know whether there is a desire on the part of the respect- able shopkeepers on Sunday at Liverpool to have the habit of Sun- day marketing put a stop to ? — I beg to remark, that the profanation of the Sabbath in Liverpool, as far as regards public marketing, does not apply exactly ; the public markets in Liverpool are closed on the Sabbath-day ; the selling that I allude to is confined to the low tradespeople and small shopkeepers. The more respectable shopkeepers do not keep open ? — Not the more respectable shops. But the lower shops who do keep open are very numerous .'' — Many of the lower order of shops. Liverpool, 28 Do you think among that class many would be desirous of" having a general rule to have the shops shut, so that all might be put on an equality ? — I believe they would. What is the population of Liverpool ? — About 200,000. Do you find any complaints because the public markets are not open on the Sabbath-day ? — None whatever. Do the lower orders, so far as you know, consider it an incon- venience to them that markets are not open on the Sabbath-day ? — I am not aware that they do. Are they generally in the practice of supplying themselves on Saturday night with what they may need for the Sabbath ? — In many cases they do so. I have made an allusion to the state of the general profanation of the Sabbath-day in Liverpool ; I wish to state, more particularly in reference to another observation connected with it, that it has become more prevalent of late ; I wish to account for that circumstance. I believe it has been occasioned principally by the increased facilities, which of late have sprung up in Liver- pool, for the breach of the Sabbath-day among the lower order of people j I more particularly allude to the increase of steam vessels on a small scale, which are perpetually plying across the Mersey, from which circumstance the lower orders are induced, from the smallness of the ferry charge, to avail themselves in large numbers, more particularly in fine weather, to cross backwards and forwards, to the utter disregard and contempt of the sacredness of the Lord's day. The other circumstance to which I beg to refer the Com- mittee, as affording a very great facility to encourage the breach of the Lord's day, is the recent establishment of the rail-road between Liverpool and Manchester ; it is an object certainly of vast magni- tude and of immense utility, but in that particular respect, I think it is a circumstance to be deplored, that it has afforded facilities to the lower orders to travel to and fro on the Lord's day. Have any remonstrances been made to the proprietors of the rail- road on the subject of the Lord's-day travelling? — I have reason to believe there have been very strong remonstrances. Attended by any effect ? — No permanent effect ; I think no desirable effect, from the circumstance, as I am informed, of two or three conscientious gentlemen, who were proprietors, having with- drawn from conscientious scruples. Was there any attempt made to alter the habits of the day on the rail-road ? — If I am not mistaken, I believe there was an attempt, and a powerful attempt, made on the part of some of the proprietors to induce the directors to yield to the object of this remonstrance, but without effect. It is desirable that you should state to the Committee some of the scenes you have witnessed on the Lord's-day, which you conceive to be particularly deserving of attention ? — A short time ago I had been very much affected by viewing the general state of the Sab- bath profanation, and felt anxious to ascertain, from my own indi- vidual inquiries, what might be the average amount of persons going to any place of worship whatever, within a given district. I set apart about a couple of hours on each Lord's-day morning to visit every family in my own immediate neighbourhood, beginning 29 Liverpool, at the end of the street 5 I resolved I would go to every house, I would go through the street thoroughly, into the alleys and cellars, and try to ascertain as accurately as I could whether they went to any place of worship or no. In the course of my inquiries, which continued for several weeks, I visited on an average 30 or 35 fami- lies on each morning, for a succession of Sabbaths until I visited from 400 to 500 families ; the result of that investigation was, that the average of families going to any place of worship at all was only about as 3 to 30. The average of those who went was 3 to 30 who did not go ? — Yes ; my plan was to finish one street before I began another. Does that include all of them? — I speak of the families. A great number of them are very j^oung, including infants ? — Three families in 30. Do you mean that not above an average of 3 families in 30 went to worship ? — That was the result of my inquiry. And there were 17, none of whom went to any ? — Who could not state to me that they went to any place of worship whatever. Have you room, sufficient room for them all, if they wish to go ? — I beg to remark, that that particular district is very destitute of accommodation for the population ; there have been recently some efforts made to remedy this. Your attention probably was directed to thn.t particular part of Li- verpool, supposing they were eminently neglectful of the Sabbath? — I thought it a place of all others most likely to be the most destitute. Taking the churches and chapels of all denominations together, there was not sufficient accommodation for the adult inhabitants ? — By no means, not one half ; I beg to remark on another circum- stance, which is undeniably a source of Sabbath profanation, most alarmingly so, as it is in London, according to the testimony of the last witness ; that is, from the multiplication of gin-shops, or what is called among us jerry-shops, places open from a very early hour of the Sabbath morning till the service, when mialtitudes of creatures roll in and drink to excess intoxicating liquor. Are all the people put out of the house at eleven o'clock, when Divine Service begins } — I believe, generally speaking, the door is closed at half-past ten. And the people kept within ? — I am not aware of that. Do they congregate in the streets to distui-b the respectable in- habitants going to church i* — The annoyances from that source are not so obvious and distressing as it seems is the case in London, from the testimony of the last witness : but from the place of my re- sidence to the place of worship I frequent is a considerable distance, through a very low part of the town 3 I often come in contact with scenes truly distressing and appalling of depravity and wickedness. Do you mean to say you see them passing in the houses, or in the open sti'eet ? — In the open street. Describe to the Committee what description of scenes you wit- ness on the Sabbath-day ? — Groups of drunken creatures, some- times two or three, sometimes more, individually staggering in the streets in a state of intoxication, and giving utterance to the most obscene and disgusting language. LiverjJooL 30 Both sexes ? — Both. Have any attempts been made on the part of the pohce in Liver- pool to put a stop to such practices C — I have sometimes myself felt an apprehension, I have heard the same apprehension expressed by others, that there is too great a laxity on the part of the authorities in preventing and suppressing those scenes of abomination. Do those scenes continue during the day ? — -I am not able to say from my own personal knowledge 5 I merely speak as to what I am in the habit of witnessing as I pass to the place of worship. How is it on the Svmday evening } — Much the same. Are there any of the habits of the superior class of Liver- pool which you think reprehensible on the Lord's-day? — There are not any that strike me at present that I feel called to remark upon. Do you think Sabbath-breaking has increased in Liverpool for the last three years ? — I think it has increased. Do you attribute any part of it to the increased consumption of spirits } — I have adverted to the two local causes which we con- ceive have tended very much to facilitate this extent of Sabbath profanation ; namely, the facilities afforded by steam of carrying the people over the Mersey to the Cheshire shore, the establishment of the railway, and the multiplication, I may say, it is a term which will very faintly convey my feelings on the subject, and the feelings of others I converse with, the alarming multiplication and mis- chievous tendency of gin or dram shops. Do not the two local circumstances you have mentioned, the passage across the Mersey and the rail-roads, draw a considerable number of people to this place, from whence they depart ; would not those people be engaged elsewhere in the breach of the Sab- bath, if they were so disposed ? — Very likely they would. The existence of this place brings them together as to one focus, as a source of relaxation ? — It does operate in that way ; but it goes beyond that, it forms a positive temptation to them to avail them- selves of those facilities. Do you think you are justified in stating it occasions persons to break the Sabbath who would not otherwise do so ; that it is a mode by which they break it ? — I have no doubt in my mind many instances occur in Liverpool of persons whom I now particularly allude to, who avail themselves of the facilities they have, who otherwise would go to some place of worship. I beg to apply this remark particularly to the steam navigation ; the passage is short, and the charge is trifling. The two things in themselves are positive advantages ; the chief passage is across the Mersey by the steam-boats, and by the rail- way from Manchester to Liverpool ? — It is immensely advantageous. You think that they have produced the increase of Sabbath- breaking on a Sunday .'' — They have led to that ; to an increase of Sabbath-breaking, and the profanation. I have expressed my opinion of the magnitude, importance, andutility of one andtheother j I do not mean to depreciate either ; I regard them as highly useful. Have the facilities proved temptations to all classes in Liverpool for breaches of the Sabbath ? — Generally. 31 Liverpool Do many Manchester people come down to the rail-road (mi the Sabbath-day? — Frequently. How do they conduct themselves generally after coming down to Liverpool ? — I have not heard of any particular cases. You merely allude to the temptation of travelling drawing people away from the habits of public worship, and other habits proper to the Lord's-day .'' — That is what I mean. You do not mean to say that they lead to rioting and indecency ? —By no means. You have said they prove temptations to all classes ; are there any practices on the part of the upper class of Liverpool, which you think form an apology to the poor for their irregularities on the Lord's-day .''—I am not aware of any gross irregularities on the part of the upper class of the society of Liverpool, that are so notorioi.a as to come before the piiblic view. I beg to advert to one circum- stance which I have no doubt has a very powerful influence on the minds of the lower classes, as a temptation or as an encouragement in their habits of Sabbath profanation, and that is the opportunity which they now have, through the medium of the public press and other sources, of knowing how the higher class of society generally, but more particularly in the metropolis, are employed on the Lord's-day. You have reason to know they justify their own conduct by re- ference to the conduct of the rich } — I mean to say it is a subject of general remark. Do the public prints of Liverpool give equal information regarding the habits of the rich in that town ? — I think thej^ do. Have you any Sunday paper at Liverpool ? — Not one, that I am aware of. Are the London newspapers delivered in Liverpool on the Sun- days ? — The prints of Saturday morning in London are delivered on the Sabbath morning in Liverpool. You have the delivery of newspapers on Sunday morning in Liverpool } — Yes. Have you any remark to make of the practice of any class of persons at Liverpool that you think injurious as an example? — I am not aware of anyj my observations are applicable more parti- cularly to the lower orders and middling class of society in Liverpool ; I am not aware of any thing particularly of an immoral character that meets the public view among the higher classes in Liverpool. Do you know if the higher class in Liverpool are regular at- tenders of Divine worship on Sunday or not ? — I believe there has been of late years a very considerable improvement among the higher classes of Liverpool in that respect. You consider that in general the higher class of Liverpool are regvilar attendei's to Divine worship } — I think so. When you made those inquiries among the persons you have described as not frequenting public worship, did they ever attempt to justify themselves by quoting the practices of the higher orders .'' — Not those persons particularly, but it is a circumstance which is taken hold of by the lower classes generally ; 1 know that for a fact. Have these persons ever mentioned to you the fact of the Cabinet Liverpool. 32 Council frequently meeting on Sundays? — Yes, I have heard it remarked. Are the lower classes, from the newspapers, aware of what passes in that respect ? — They know it from the public press. Was it used in excusing themselves for a breach of the Sabbath ? — It has been referred to as a subject of surprise and regret ; I have had no instance of its having been mentioned to me as a justifica- tion of Sabbath-breaking, on the part of the lower orders ; but I can have no doubt in my own mind but that the knowledge of those circumstances existing operates as a justification in their own minds. By what class of people have you heard it spoken of with regret ? — The decent and respectable class. Have you any other observations to make to the Committee ? — I think in the course of my evidence I have alluded to an opinion which prevails, that there is a general laxity on the part of the authorities to enforce the existing laws relating to Sabbath-break- ing. I am not sufficiently acquainted with those laws, and their various application and bearing, to know how far, if enforced, they would meet my views of the sacredness and sanctity of the Sabbath ; very probably, if they were rigidly and fairly enforced, they might ; but, with my impression, if those laws allow of public-houses being open in the way they are, I should then say there ought to be a change . Do you think the public-houses might be kept closed during the whole of Sunday, that is to say, that no drinking on the premises should be allowed during the day ? — Most decidedly so. You would have the house so far kept open that the inhabitants in the neighbourhood might buy beer for their dinners or suppers, if so disposed? — And that should be under the very strongest regulations. With respect to cook-shops at Liverpool, are they much fre- quented by the working classes ? — Not so generally on the Lord's day, I imagine. Is it the habit to keep such shops open on the Lord's day .? — Yes. For what class of persons ? — For any who choose to frequent them ; but those who do frequent them are persons I conceive to be of the very lowest order of society. Do you conceive that many who do now frequent them, could, if they were so disposed, get their meals provided at their own lodg- ings ? — I have no doubt of it. Are you of opinion that were the steam-boats that traffic across the Mersey on a Sunday, which are not licensed so to do, subject to a penalty of 5s., this would have the effect of putting a stop to it ? — Certainly not. Are you of opinion that a similar penalty, if enforced, with regard to the conductor of a train of waggons on the railway, would have the effect of stopping the traffic on the rail-road of a Sabbath-day ? — Certainly not. LONDON : Printed for the ^QtitXii for promoting the fiue ©Iiseibiince of the ilorU'ssJBai), by Ellerto.v and Henderson, Gough Square: SoW at the Society's Office, Exeter Hall ; and by Messrs. Kivington, fJeeley, Hafchard, & Nisbet. frice i^d. each, or 163. per hundicd. SVZDBNCE GIVEN BY THE REV. DAVID RUELL, M. A. CHAPLAIN OF THE NEW PRISON, CLERKENWELLj MR. JOHN WONTNER, GOVERNOR OF NEWGATE j AND MR. BENJAMIN BAKER ; BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed August G, 1832. Rev. David Ruell, called in ; and examined. What is your profession ? — I am now chaplain of the New Prison, Clerkenwell j and was formerly chaplain of the House of Correction, Coldbath Fields, also. How long have you held that office ? — I was for ten years chaplain both of the New Prison and House of Correction, and have been upwards of eighteen years chaplain of the New Prison. How many prisoners have you had under your care ? — Nearly 7,000 annually pass under my care ; and during my chaplaincy, at the lowest calculation, I have had above 100,000. Have you had any means of ascertaining, from the pri- soners or otherwise, the leading causes which first led them to crime ? — Independent of my general intercourse with the prisoners, when assembled daily for public worship and reli- gious instruction, I generally make a point of seeing in private those who are charged with capital offences, before they are removed to Newgate for trial ; in some cases I have been sent for after conviction ; by this means I have had many opportunities of learning from the prisoners themselves the course which has led them into crime ; and have generally found that the neglect or gross violation of the Sabbath has been one. The usual process has been impatience of parental restraint, violation of the Sabbath, and the neglect of reli- gious ordinances ; evil association, especially with abandoned females ; drunkenness, arising from attending public-houses. No. VI. A Ttev. D. Ruell. 1 tea-gardens, &.c-. ; petty theft ; the want of character on leav- ing prison after the first conviction, and then a reckless course of confirmed guilt. I do not recollect a single case of capital oiFence where the party has not been a Sabbath- breaker, and in many cases they have assured me that Sab- bath-breaking was the first step in the course of crime. Have confessions to that effect been frequent .'' — Frequently have they acknowledged it, and in some cases they have re- quested me to warn others against it from their example. Indeed I may say, in reference to prisoners of all classes, that in 19 cases out of 20, they are persons who have not only neglected the Sabbath, but all other ordinances of re- ligion. So powerfully is my mind impressed with the subject, that I cannot forbear adding my conviction that Sabbath- breaking is not only a great national evil, but a fruitful source of immorality among all classes, and pre-eminently of profligacy and crime among the lower orders. As a remark- able instance of the process by which persons, once respect- able in life, have beeia brought to commit, without remorse, the greatest crimes, I may mention the case of the Cato-street conspirators, who to the number of fifteen or eighteen, were committed to the House of Correction twelve years ago, when I was chaplain. By endeavouring to convince them that my object was to do them good, they freely disclosed their sentiments and designs. Some of them were children of parents who had made a profession of religion, but by the neglect of religious ordinances, and reading infidel publi- cations, they had been brought to renounce Christianity and become confirmed infidels. They stated that they had been in the habit of holding meetings for discussing the most blas- phemous questions, wath a view to remove from the mind all moral feeling, and to fit them the more effectually for the wholesale murder which they contemplated. They admitted their conviction that they could not succeed in their ultimate plans, as long as Christianity had any hold on the minds of the people, but that, if they could have gained a temporary success, their first object would have been instantly to de- stroy all the churches. They freely admitted their full inten- tion of doing all that was proved, and would have died with pleasure if they could have taken the lives of all the then Ministers of the Crown, and caused the streets of London to flow with blood. Can you mention any other customs tending to the dese- cration of the Sabbath which have conae under your notice ? — In addition to the ordinary means of Sabbath desecration, too common everywhere, I will mention two which are power- fully felt in this neighbourhood : the one is the vast number 3 Rev. D. RucU. of stage-coaches and omnibuses which pass and re-pass on the Paddington road through Pentonville all parts of the day, even during Divine service ; the other arises from the driving of cattle and sheep into Islington, to be ready for Smithfield market on Monday. It is estimated that above 500 persons are by this means obliged to violate the Sabbath more or less, which would not be the case were the market held on another day. I beg also to mention my conviction that dram-shops tend most powerfully to the desecration of the Sabbath and that the closing of them entirely on the Sabbath would tend greatly to the moral M-elfare of the lower orders. Have you had occasion to observe the effect produced by the beer-shops more recently established by law ? — Of my own knowledge I am not able to report correctly respecting the effect of beer- shops ; but from the information of others, better informed, I believe it to be injurious. But as I reside in the immediate neighbourhood, I wish to make a remark as to White Conduit House, as a lamentable instance of Sabbath profanation, and, in fact, a perfect nuisance on a Sunday evening. Some time since a public officer counted no less than 2,500 persons who on one Sunday evening attended these gardens. They each pay 6d. at entrance, and spend what they please afterwards. Is that Qd. for mere admission to the gardens, or do they evade the law by giving something in return ? — They get some- thing in return for it, and expend as much as they please afterwards. Does the witness know, from the habits of the garden, whether it can be called a tea-garden, or are spirits consumed in any quantity? — It may be considered as a tea-garden, but I believe spirits and ale and beer are sold also to a consider- able extent. In your long experience with the prisoners, in the different prisons, when yon have reproved them for vice, have they made any observations on the habits of the higher classes of society ? — Frequently j and it would be difficult for me to de- scribe the shrewdness with which their remarks are often made ; some have been so pointed, in reference to persons in the higher ranks, as to call forth my reproof. Do they allude to any particular practice of the higher orders of society ? — They refer with a sort of pleasure to any remarkable departure from the principles of religion or mo- rality, as affording a sort of sanction to their own evil conduct. Indeed I have found this a very great barrier, in my ministry generally, to impressing the minds of the lower orders with a sense of religious and moral obligation. Do they allude to the profanation of the Sabbath on the Mr. J. IVoiitner. 4 part of the higher classes of society ? — Particularly so -, and justly allege that they cannot plead necessity as an excuse for their profaneness. Have you in your experience heard prisoners regret that they had been so regardless of the Lord's day ? — In many cases, as before stated. Have you heard them say whether they looked at it as a matter of necessity? — They often plead their poverty and family claims as an excuse for their conduct. Then have they justified the so doing as matter of neces- sity, on account of the system of law under which they were living ? — Generally speaking, they have. Do you conceive their desecration of the Sabbath has gene- rally arisen from necessity, or from what persons consider relaxation on the Lord's-day, such as drinking and smoking, and taking their pleasure in places of public resort ? — ^Though poverty affords a strong temptation, yet my impression is that by far the greater number desecrate the sacred day from taking their own pleasure. Do you conceive, if the causes of temptation were removed such as gin-shops, tea-gardens, &c., Sunday would be better . observed .'' — I believe that no one measure would tend more to the temporal and moral welfare of the lower orders than entirely closing all dram shops on the Sunday. Have you not often met with instances of persons about to expiate their crimes by an ignominious death, who have ear- nestly enforced on their surviving relatives the necessity of the strict observance of the Sabbath, and have ascribed their own departure from what is right to the non-observance of that day ? — Frequently, as stated in the former part of my evidence. Would you. Sir, as a clergyman, say that those persons who are most in the habit of attending Divine worship are, generally speaking, the best men in their families ? — Un- doubtedly ; and I feel convinced that, if the great mass of the people could be brought habitually under the means of grace, it would produce a most beneficial change in their moral conduct. Mr. John Wontner, called in; and examined. What are you ? — I am keeper of Newgate. How many years have you been so ? — Ten years ; and six years a marshal of the city of London. Have you had an opportunity of hearing any of the many prisoners who must have been under your care during that time, express any regret as to the desecration of the Lord's 5 Mr. J. Wonlner. day ? — I have heard many of them express their regret that their crimes have originated with a breach of the Sabbath. Has that been very frequent ? — Frequently ; and more fre- quently communicated to me by the Ordinary and Mr. Baker. Have they been in the habit of remonstrating on the non- observance of the Sabbath to their friends, or such of them as have visited them 1 — I have known them caution their re- latives and friends to observe the Sabbath, tracing their own crimes to the non-observance or to the breach of the Sabbath. To what do they attribute the first step in their career of vice, namely, the breach of the Sabbath ; do they attribute it to being compelled to work, or to their habits of relaxation on that day ? — I believe most frequently to evil associations, and being drawn out by bad associates to the breach of the Sabbath ; I believe that few, from what I have gathered, have been compelled to work on the Sabbath-day, except when they wished on the Monday or Tuesday to meet their associates, and thus to take relaxation on those days. Is that by their own choice ? — Yes, by their own choice. Can you conceive any reason why they should prefer the Monday and Tuesday ? — Yes, because there are associations in different parts of the town of persons of their stamp and character with whom they like to associate, and then they can meet with them more readily than they can on the Sunday ; I allude to trades, generally speaking, but weavers more par- ticularly and especially, and also shoemakers. Have you any other observation to make .'' — I consider very much that the allowing public-houses and the gin-shops to be kept open before Divine service in the morning causes a greater breach of the Sabbath than almost any thing ; in my imme- diate neighbourhood I see them at five, six, seven, eight and nine o'clock in the morning coming out of the houses in a state of disgraceful inebriation. So that, in point of fact, the law permitting the public- houses to remain open until the hours of Divine service gives the opportunity to many to get into such a state of intoxication, that they are quite unfit for the religious duties of the day ; is not that so ? — Quite ; they are indisposed to it also. In your experience have you found these gin-shops to be the source of almost all the crime in the metropolis } — I have found prisoners innumerable, I may say, as to whom the love of drink, and the fault of being able to obtain it at so cheap a rate, has been the ruin of them, and the cause of bringing them to distress. Have you ever had any prisoners who were habitual ob- servers of the Lord's day r — Many of them who have been habitual observers have been prisoners with me. Mr. B. Baker. 6 What has been thfe nature of their crimes r — Robbing their masters, bigamy, and a variety of offenders of that sort ; and yet they have been religiously educated. How did the career of vice of such characters commence > — That I cannot trace j temptation of some sort or another j the love of dress, with females especially, and then robbing their masters and inistresses. But from your experience, as a general rule, should you think those who habitually observe the Sabbath were by far the best subjects ? — Oh, decidedly. The great proportion of your inmates are those who dese- crate the Sabbath .'' — A much larger proportion ; I should say nine-tenths did not value the Sabbath, or were not in the habit of attending a place of worship. Was the law to prohibit the sale of spirits on the Sunday, has the witness every reason to believe there would be a considerable diminution in crime? — I am decidedly of that opinion. At what hour on Saturday do you pay the wages of your officers of the prison ? — Before two o'clock. Do you find that, by so doing, their families are enabled to make their marketing at a reasonable hour on Saturday ? — Decidedly so. Your object, in paying them so early on Saturday, is to enable them to make their marketing at a reasonable hour ? — That is the object. You have stated that one-tenth of your inmates are persons who have been in the habit of observing the Sabbath? — I should judge so. Are they generally brought to you for lighter crimes than those nine-tenths who have generally been non-observers of the Sabbath ? — I cannot say that they are. Have you made the classification ? — I have not. Mr. Benjamin Baker, called in; and examined. Where do you reside ? — 27, Felix Terrace, Islington. Have you been much in the habit of visiting the prisoners in Newgate ? — Yes ; for 20 years past. In your experience, have you found the prisoners, when duly impressed with a sense of their departure from the ways of truth and rectitude, seem to lament their neglect of the duties of the Sabbath ? — Almost universally. Have they considered it as a leading cause of their trans- gressions ? — I cannot exactly say that they have expressed that, but I think that almost universally they have said that was the principal thing ; that the dc^ iation from the Sabbath led them 7 Mr. B. nalcer. on, step by step, into that degree of crime which had brought them there. Then, in referring to their past life in a tone of regret, have they given a prominence to that fault ?— ^Almost universally. Have they shewn a disposition to warn others on that point? — That is so likewise, and almost universally, when brought to a due sense of their crimes ; I have made memorandums from time to time, and I have got letters innumerable, which will fully prove what I have stated. I can state, that almost uni- formly, when they are brought to a true knowledge of their sin, they state that the great cause of their misconduct has been neglect of the Sabbath. How many do you think you have attended in their last moments at the place of execution ? — I should suppose I have not attended less than 350, and perhaps more ; during 20 years, I have attended almost every execution. And in every case, where the parties have been brought to a sense of their condition, they have agreed in that sentiment ? — Nine out of ten have dated the principal part of their de- parture from God to the neglect of the Sabbath ; that has certainly been the case. LONDON: Printed by EUerion ^ Henderson, Goxigh Square, FOR THE Sortefg for Promoting t^e Due ©bserbance of tSc iLorO'6=l3as : AND SOLD By Messrs. Rivington, St. Paul's Church-yard and Waterloo Place ; by Messrs. Sekley, Fleet Street; by Messrs. Haichard, Piccadilly ; by Mr. Niseet, Berners Street; and at the above-named Society's Office, 12 Exeter Hall, Strand. Price Id. each, or 4s. per hundred. At which places may be obtained the REPORT of the Select Committee of the House of Commons on the Lord's Day, price Id. or Gs. per hundred ; and also FURTHER SELECTIONS and EXTRACTS from the EVIDENCE. EVZDBNCi: GIVKN BY THE Rev. J. E. TYLER, Rev. J. W. CUNNINGHAM, Rev Dii. BARRETT, and JOHN TWELLS, Esq. BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed August 6, 1832. Rev. J. E. TYLEIl, called in ; and examined. You reside in the parish of St. Giles, of which you are Rector ? — Yes. Have you had occasion to notice how far the Sabbath is observed in your parish ? — Yes. How many years have you resided in it .'' — Six years. Will you have the goodness to offer any such observations to the Committee as you have made with respect to the observance of that day } — The population of the parish under my pastoral care, St. Giles in the fields, is on the whole about 36,000, and the Committee perhaps will allow me to divide the population of my parish under distinct heads, because any remark that would apply to one of those classes might be totally inapplicable to another. I should divide the population into six classes ; the first consisting of the higher class of gentry, who are almost entirely members of the legal pro- fession, by whom I should say, with very few exceptions, that the Lord's day is observed most satisfactorily, and in a most exemplary manner, both by their attendance on the public duties of religion and their attention to the domestic religious duties, and the attend- ance of their families and servants on both. The second class are the respectable tradesmen, of whom 1 should generally affirm the same, as passing the Lord's day in a satisfactory and Christian manner, though 1 fear many of them defer paying their workmen to too late an hour on the Saturday ; some however, to my knowledge, make a point of conscience to pay their workmen on the Friday, and they find no evil to themselves from it in a pecuniary point of view. Has paying the workmen on the Friday been found to induce drunkenness on the Saturday ? — I believe not : as far as my own information has gone, it is not so. A third class are the inferior tradesmen, such as those who sell old clothes, what are called in the country cobblers, but are in London called translators j those, namely, who buy old shoes and mend them and sell them again ; it is a trade of itself, and they are called translators : hatters, fruiterers, butchers of the lower class, and some others ; in short, the inferior tradesmen in all such departments. By this class I should say the Lord's day is most shamefully, or rather most shame- lessly disregarded. Many of them are Jews. Traffic is carried on as openly and clamorously on the Sunday as on the week-day, espe- No. vn. A Rev. J. E. Tyler. 2 cially by butchers and old-clothes sellers, who stand on the outside of their shops and invite customers. The fourth class are the keepers of public-houses and gin-shops ; and this class I regard as the greatest nuisance of all, affording the most insuperable obstacles to the religious observance of Sunday, as the law now stands. The fifth are the lower class of English mechanics and labourers, who have been of late much seduced by infidel publications and Sunday newspapers, a very small proportion attending public worship, the greater part passing the whole day in idleness and dissipation, in the public-houses and in the streets. There are, however, very many families of this class which I know from my own knowledge to be truly religious, and within their sphere very exemplary ; but they, especially the younger branches of their families, are now more than ever exposed to the worst sorts of temptation in the streets, and round the doors of gin-shops and public-houses. It is lamentable to see the number, of young girls especially, to whom the present gin- shops give such facilities for their wicked doings as they never had before. The sixth class is the low Irish population. What is the number of the low Irish in your parish }—l have not been able to ascertain satisfactorily to myself the number, but I think they are not less than 8,000. The circumstance, however, of the population being so very fluctuating renders it far more difficult to ascertain their exact number. Of this last class a very large proportion spend the whole or the greater part of Sunday in an un- interrupted course of drunkenness. From your observation, has the state of observance of the Lord's day in your parish been better or worse of late years ? — With regard to the two first classes I can make no remark at all ; but with respect to the other classes, it has been partly better and partly worse. About 30 years ago there were far worse broils and tumults, and fightings and pitched battles in St. Giles's on the Lord's day than now ; and I believe, that instead of the pitched battles taking place in our streets, they adjourn to the outskirts of London to de- cide those battles. Whereby your streets are kept in comparative quietness ? — Yes. Do the legal gentlemen, whom you state to compose the large proportion of the first class, employ clerks on that day, so far as you have observed? — I believe they do not : I believe a very great change for the better has taken place of late years among the lawyers, especially in the practice of holding consultations on Sunday. Are Sunday parties common in your parish amongst that better class ? — I think not. They are very rare. Do you conceive that they have diminished of late years ? — I am not able to say positively, but I think they have. With respect to the third class, the evils are much greater now than they were from three or four to six or eight years ago, though not greater than they were 30 years ago. How did that improvement some years ago arise ? — Before the introduction of Jthe new police the officers of the parish used re- peatedly to take their own beadles and servants with them through the different streets, and compel the inhabitants to keep their shops much more regularly closed than they are at present. 3 Rev. J. E. Tyler. Do you mean to say that the old parish officers were more cflicient than the new police are ? — In that particular. Can yo\i assign any reason for the parish officers discontinuing the enforcing the strict observance of the day, inasmuch as the police are not authorized to interfere ? — The parish officers have not now officers under them corresponding with those which they employed formerly. What is the reason of that change ? — Because we used to have street-keepers by day and watchmen by night, keepers who could be employed on that service, but now the police-officers have taken the place of those. And they do not act under the authority of the local officers ? — They do not. Can you not, at a parish vestry, authorize the police to act for you as your parish officers did formerly ? — We might authorize them, but they would not be compelled, as the other servants of the parish were, to obey us ; and in answer to the question I should beg leave, with the permission of the Committee, to put in the resolu- tions to which our vestry unanimously came upon the 1 1th of July, on this subject. [The Witness delivered in the same, winch was read.'] Did they at the time resolve on petitioning Parliament for a stricter state of the law ? — They requested me to communicate this resolu- tion to the magistrates and to the police authorities, and if that me- morial did not succeed then they resolved to petition Parliament. Tlien you conceive that the police force is not sufficiently in- structed to maintain the order of the parish on that day .? — With reference to the third class of people and the traffic on that day, I think that either they are not authorized or that they do not per- form their duty sufficiently in checking traffic on that day. Will you state whether there is an improvement or otherwise with respect to the fourth class ? — Quite otherwise. A most mate- rial demoralization of the people has taken place within the short period to which I refer, tending to the increased neglect of the Lord's day, in consequence of the habits cherished by gin shops, and the facilities of drunkenness now afforded in those dens of profligacy. What regulations have occurred to your mind as desirable, in reference to gin-shops, public-houses and beer- shops on the Lord's- day ?— I should humbly suggest that no beer or liquor of any sort should be drunk in London on the premises on the Lord's- day, throughout it ; or if this be impracticable, that no gin-shop or pub- lic-house should on any account be opened between 1'2 o'clock on Saturday night, and till after morning service on the Sunday. Have you had any communication with publicans in your parish respecting the regulation to which you have last referred .'' — No, I have not. Have you any reason to think that that regulation would be ob- jected to by the great proportion of the publicans 1 — Not by the respectable class of public-houses. I have reason to think it would not be objected to by them at all. Have you reason to think it would be agreeable to all the re- spectable publicans in your parish ? — Certainly 1 have. You think it would afford no inconvenience except to the disso- lute and drunken ? — I think not ; I think to no others. A 2 Rev J. E. Tyler. 4 Since the Beer-house Act has passed has there been any consi- derable addition to the drinking and disorder on the Lord's day, in consequence of the establishment of the beer-houses in your parish ? — I cannot say in my parish, but in the country most de- cidedly. Are there any beer-houses established in your parish in London ? — There are. Do you know the character of them ? — I know that they are of a very low description. Are you aware whether, in the competition of public-houses, gin- shops and beer- shops, many of them have had recourse to addi- tional sources of allurement in order to obtain customers, such as gambling and harbouring prostitutes ? — I have not the least doubt that the latter is the case, from the representations that have been made to me. Will you state, with reference to the fifth class of which you have spoken, namely, the English labourers of the lowest class, whether there has been any improvement or otherwise on the Lord's day ? — I think there has been an improvement in a number of this class, and chiefly arising from the establishment of infant and national schools. Do you ascribe no portion of that improvement to the institution of a District Visiting Society in your parish 1 — I am in hopes that the establishment of a District Visiting Society has been productive of considerable good, to this class especially ; and I am very grate- ful for it. Are the means of accommodating that class of people you are now speaking of, in the churches and the chapels of all denomina- tions in your parish, sufficient ? — Decidedly not. Can you state in what proportion they are deficient ? — The ac- commodation for the members of the church is, in the mother church, for about 1 ,200 ; in the new church, built by the Parlia- mentary Commissioners, for less than 2,000 ; and in West- Street Chapel, now exclusively employed for service in the Irish language, about 600 ; making in all, at the outside, about 3,600. The accommodation for Dissenters of every denomination, exclu- sive of Roman Catholics, I cannot conceive to be above 3,000. The Roman Catholics have a place of worship in my parish near Lin- coln's-inn Fields and near Soho-square, and since they have their repeated masses many more are accommodated. With reference to this head, you have spoken before of the evil effects of infidel publications ; will you have the goodness to state what you have remarked with respect to that ? — I have remarked that within these few last years infidel publications have multiplied in a most frightful manner, and that they appear to me to be poisoning the minds of the lower classes more and more daily. Have you had recourse to any means to counteract the poison of those publications, by diffusing publications of an opposite ten- dency ? — Yes, I have, especially by means of the Visiting Society, by distributing moral and religious tracts. Have you reason to believe that these counteracting means had recourse to by you have had a beneficial effect ? — -I hope so, to a limited extent, and I have no doubt that the beneficial effects would 5 Rev. J. E. Tyler. be infinitely increased if the number of visitors could be multi- plied. Has there been an improvement or otherwise as to the observ- ance of the Sabbath in the sixth class ? — There is much less of fighting and tumult than before, owing to the vigilance and zeal and activity of the new police ; I feel deeply indebted to them on all occasions for prompt, cheerful, and efficient agency ; still drunken- ness has been lamentably on the increase j and notwithstanding all the efforts of myself and those inhabitants who act with me, great outrages are constantly taking place whilst we are going to church and returning ; I have seen some individuals of consequence, one of the oldest Judges of the land, all but knocked down into the gutter by drunken men and women bursting from their abodes in St. Giles's, in coming from church. I earnestly press on the gentry in my parish not to use their carriages to come to church on Sun- day, but the dreadful scenes of intoxication and debauchery to which they are exposed as they walk along the street quite disarm me in this respect. Upon what ground do you urge upon your parishioners not to use their carriages on Sunday? — That their servants might have an opportunity of attending Divine worship as well as themselves, and that a marked distinction in them between the Lord's day and the other days of the week being visible to other classes of society, might have the eiFect of good example. Would not this opinion of your's bear rather hard upon invalids and infirm persons, and those living at a distance from church ? — I should never think of including them in my exhortation. And are you not of opinion also that where a family may come to church in their own carriage, if they should take an early time, so as to give their servants an opportunity of putting up the horses and also to be in time for service, the coming to church in their carriage would not be so objectionable, inasmuch as the servants would then have the opportunity of going to church .'' — If that could be the result, I should say that somewhat of the objection would be removed, but that I do not think the plan practicable in my own parish. Have you had any experience in country parishes ? — I have lived in country parishes or in country towns almost the whole of my life. During your experience of the country, was the right observance of the Lord's day on the increase or otherwise ? — Of late years, de- cidedly the Lord's day has been more religiously observed by all classes in agricultural districts than formerly. To what do you attribute the improvement ? — Very much to the improved state of the clergy, in point both of residence and of zeal in the discharge of their duties, and more particularly to the resto- ration of a second or afternoon service in the churches. In the parts of the country to which you allude, are schools more numerous now than formerly ? — Very much more numerous, and to that I would also attribute the increased observance of the Lord's day. Formerly it very often happened that the same clergy- man served three churches, the first as early as nine o'clock, when it was almost impossible for any part of an agricultural household to attend ; there was much more of noisy games prevalent than Rev. J. E. Tyler. 6 now in country villages. In some places, however, the same evil with regard to the time of Divine service still exists though the Bishops are anxiously bent on removing it. Were Sunday schools much established in the country where your experience lay, and did you attribute much benefit to them ? — They have been of late years much more generally established than formerly, and I attribxite much of good to them. Within your observation, did it appear that the individuals who acquired good habits by attending the Sunday schools, retained such habits as they grew up to manhood ? — I think so. You speak from your own observation ? — Yes. In the part of the country to which you allude, was the accom- modation of the churches sufficient for the population ? — In many popiilous parishes decidedly not ; and I would refer particularly to the whole district of the Forest of Dean, in Gloucestershire, as a striking example of the wonderfully beneficial effects of providing the people with places of worship. It has quite changed the com- plexion and character of society in that district. You resided in that neighbourhood ? — I did. At what period was this additional accommodation provided in that neighbourhood ? — It began about 30 years ago, between 20 and 30 years ago, and has been going on improving ever since. What is the effect of the profanation of the Sabbath-day upon the lower classes '. — I believe the Lord's- day is much better ob- served in country parishes by the higher classes now than for- merly ; and that improved observance is productive of most bene- ficial effects on the moral and religious character of the agricul- tural population. Speaking of the example of the higher classes, do you think that the right observance of the Sabbath on the part of the higher classes, in your present parish, has any beneficial effect tipon the mass of the poor population ? — I scarcely think it has : certainly not to the same extent, because in my parish the poor population are com- pletely a distinct population, and are almost entirely beyond the sphere of the beneficial effects of the example of their superiors. There is very little good to be expected in this particular, excepting by means of visiting societies ; they come into personal contact only by some means of that kind : one of the Judges of the land at this moment is a visitor. • In the neighbourhood in which you resided in the country, has the establishment of beer-houses contributed to an increased pro- fanation of the Lord's day ? — Yes. Beer-shops appear to me to have the power of neutralizing all the efforts of the clergy, and all the good example of the laity in this respect ; they have already exercised much of that power, and they appear to me at this mo- ment to be going on progressively in the evil they produce ; they attract many who would otherwise on the Sunday be living in the bosom of their family and attending public worship, but who now are seduced into evil company, and often spend their wages in in- temperance. Supposing that the beer-shops did not exist, might not the same individuals be equally enticed to public-houses ? — If public-houses existed in the same number I think they would ; though, generally 7 Rev. J. E. Tijler. speaking, the publican being a more respectable person in society than the mere keeper of a beer-shop, would be more disposed to preserve order and check the excess of intoxication in his ho\ise. To what do you attribute the greater respectability of the publican compared to the mere keeper of a beer-shop ? — Tc the facility with which a beer-shop is opened ; the little capital required in opening it ; and the comparative absence of restraint on the part of the magistrate, and of any apprehension of losing their licence from misconduct. Supposing two houses of equal value in other respects, one of which had a licence to keep a public-house, and the other had not, what would be the value of the public-house above the other ? — I should say, in my parish, that the mere attachment of a licence to the house would make it from 1,0(X)/. to 1,300/. more valuable. Have you any reason to believe that those beer-houses have gambling and immoral practices carried on in them ? — Too much reason to believe it. What reason have you for supposing that the Sunday newspapers are productive of the evil to which you have alluded ? — The Sunday newspapers being taken in at the beer-shops and public-houses, of which notice is given at the windows, forms a great additional in- ducement to the lower classes to frequent them. Have you, from your own knowledge, reason to believe that the sentiments contained in those publications have an immoral and irreligious tendency ? — Many of them decidedly so. Do people come from a distance to purchase old clothes in the streets inhabited by the Jews, on a Sunday ? — Many country people come from the neighbourhood of London to do so. And particularly on the Sunday ? — Yes. How do yovi know that they are country people ? — I can dis- tinguish immediately a country person from others by their dress and general appearance ; many of them come in smock-frocks. Do you not suppose that if such traffic were put an end to on the Sunday, from the wandering habit of the Jews, they would in the course of the week go to their respective neighbourhoods to supply them ? — I am not able to speak to that point, but I feel assured that if, what I would strongly recommend, all shops of that kind were rigidly closed on Sunday, that class of people would come with much greater advantage to themselves on some week-day. Are not the Jews' shops closed on Saturday ? — Some few are. If all those shops were closed on Sunday, the inconvenience to indi- vidual countrymen in a pecuniary point of view would be none at all, inasmuch as each individual taking an opportunity of purchas- ing his clothes on another day, would not be exposed to the same temptation of sqviandering his money in public-houses, by the dis- solute and disorderly, who freqvient the streets more especially on Sundays. And the country people thus frequenting the shops for the pur- pose you have just now described, are thereby led into temptation in that neighbourhood ? — Ithink so. Which do not exist to the same extent on another day? — Such temptations as would exist on other days, but much increased on Sundays. Rev. J. E. Tyler. 8 Are you of opinion that, in consequence of the Sunday practices of the Jews and low Irish to which you have alluded, the interfer- ence of the.Legislature is necessary in order to secure the Protestant proportion of the community in the enjoyment of the Sabbath, both in a religious point of view and as a day of rest ? — I am decidedly of opinion that the enactments of the Legislature already in force are not adequate to the securing to the Christian population of my parish the objects mentioned in the question. What amendments would you suggest ? — A most rigid compul- sion on all shopkeepers to keep their shops closed through the whole of the Sunday ; I would not except bakers or butchers, much less dealers in apparel and other articles not considered daily ne- cessaries of life. The habit of providing for the Sunday on a pre- vious day would gradually bring with it a habit also of forethought and prudence ; and this I am persuaded, from my knowledge of the sentiments of the tradesmen in my parish, would be most ac- ceptable to the great majority of them. And in point of fact, even now the more respectable of the work- ing classes do provide themselves on the Saturday evening ? — Un- doubtedly, the more provident, the more moral, and the more religious. And the class for whom the shops now keep open are the impro- vident, the drunken, and the immoral ? — I think so. ' That is to say, the class of persons that do not occupy the Satur- day night in making their marketing, but rather with the knowledge that the shops will be open on Sunday, remain in the public-house ? — Certainly. Have you any suggestions to make with regard to the amendment of the law ? — Yes, I have. Are the opinions which you hold the result of your own expe- rience as a clergyman both in town and country, and as a magis- trate in the country ? — Yes, they are. I was vicar of a country parish in Northamptonshire for nine years, which I resigned on my appointment to St. Giles's ; and I have for some time acted as a magistrate in Monmouthshire, when in the country. The sug- gestions which I would take the liberty of submitting are the fol- lowing : I would on no account compel persons under penalties to attend public worship, or interfere with matters of conscience, but I would by a strong hand put down whatever offended public de- cency and the outward reverence of the Lord's day, with whatever was openly calculated as a temptation to seduce any part of the population into a disregard for religious ordinances, or to encourage them in it. First, double or treble tolls on Sundays everywhere, at turnpike-gates, bridges, &c. Second, a most rigid compulsion, under adequate penalties, on all shopkeepers to keep their shops closed through the whole of Sunday. I would not except bakers or butchers, much less dealers in apparel, &c. ; and I would re- commend the forfeiture, for the use of the poor, of all articles which may be proved to be sold on Sunday, in addition to the fine. Third, no beer or liquor to be drank on the premises on Sunday ; or, if this be impracticable, no gin-shop or public-house to be open between 13 on Saturday night and 12 on Sundays. Fourth, to make it imperative on magistrates to take away the licence of any ale-house keeper who should allow ball or skittles, or any other 9 Rev. J. fV. Cunningham. game, on his premises on Sunday, or give refreshment to persons engaged in those sports off their premises. Fifth, to put down all Sunday newspapers without exception. Sixth, to forbid in London the cry of fish(mackarel), orany other cryof tradeor traffic in thestreets. Seventh,to enable the local authorities (with consent of magistrates) to prevent thoroughfares for carriages to be used in service time. Eighth, never to allow county quarter sessions, fairs, or public meet- ings, to be opened on Monday morning. Have you been occupied in receiving cholera reports ? — I have. Has that led you to make any observations applicable to the ob- servance of the Lord's day ? — Yes. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee the obser- vations that you have made ? — I have been most painfully reminded of the habits of drunkenness, dissipation, and profligacy prevailing on Saturday night and Sunday, in a degree far more lamentable than through the rest of the week. The cases of cholera are re- ported to me, as Chairman of the Board of Health, in writing every evening, and by an officer every morning. The cases of cholera on Sunday and Monday generally exceed those of any other day, sometimes twofold, at others fourfold, tenfold, and even as four- teen to one. This is chiefly among the low Irish. There is one instance of a similar increase on a Wednesday, namely, the ISth of the present month, which might seem to clash with my conclusion, when I ascribe the increase of cholera on the Lord's day to an in- crease of drunkenness ; but it is an exception which, in the strict sense of the word, seems to me to prove the rule. The day before, viz. Tuesday, was exceedingly hot, perhaps the hottest day of the present summer ; the heat induced them to indulge in drinking, and an increase in the cases of cholera was the consequence. A case also occurred yesterday, Sunday morning, of an appalling na- ture. Edward Murphy was seized with cholera early in the morn- ing ; our medical gentlemen immediately attended at his home ; but bodies of Irishmen and Irishwomen, in a state of dreadful drunkenness, came in bodies of five, six, or seven at a time (to the number of fifteen), who, with horrid and blasphemous impreca- tions, forbade the administration of medicine to the patient, or his removal to the hospital j and they succeeded in doing so. The man died in a few hours, without having any medicine administered ; and, though not so in the eye of the law, I cannot but regard this as almost amounting to murder. And I beg to state to the Com- mittee, that this would not have taken place, had the gin-shops been closed at midnight on the Saturday. The Rev. J. W . CUNNINGHAM, called in; and examined. Are yon vicar of Harrow ? — I am, in Middlesex. Have you resided many years in that neighbourhood ? — More than twenty-one years. During that time have you had occasion to observe the violation of the Lord's day ? — My attention has been particularly directed to the subject during the whole of that period, and it has been my earnest desire, by every reasonable and legal means, to check the desecration of the Sabbath. I would wish to say a few words, in Rev. J. W. Cunningham. 10 the first place, as to the insufficiency of the law as it now stands. The fact is, that with every effort on my own part, and with every assistance from a most respectable bench of magistrates, we have not in the slightest degree succeeded in preventing the desecration of the Sabbath. What are the complaints, as to this point, usually made in your imraediate neighbourhood ? — In the first place, the buying and selling on the Sabbath ; and in the second place, drunkenness. What it had occurred to me particularly to state to the Committee was, what I conceived, from practical experience, to be some of the best remedies for the existing evils. These remedies respect three classes of persons : first, the farmers j secondly, the publicans and proprietors of beer-houses ; and thirdly, persons engaged in trade. Be so good as to state the remedies to which you refer ? — First, as respects the farmers, it appears to me essential to lay them under some constraint to pay the wages of their workmen by a given hour on Saturday evening. At present many of them pay on a Sunday morning ; and some of these not even until the hour of church. From what cause may these payments on the Sunday originate, as far as is known to you ? — As respects my own parish, which is a parish of which the main produce is hay, I conceive it to arise chiefly from the markets for hay being held on the Saturday. Many of the Middlesex farmers are in exceedingly low circumstances : they are mostly small farmers, and some of them depend on what is brought back from the hay-market to pay their men. Where is that hay-market held ? — It used to be held in what is called the " Haymarket ; " it is now held I believe at the back of the Regent's Park. The farmers themselves, and their men, go up to this market on the Saturday morning, at various times ; the men are often detained the whole day, and return ' at nine, ten, and eleven o'clock at night, drunk or sober. Is that hay-market to which you allude held on the Saturday ? — Yes j Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday are the market-days, and I know of no one valid reason (and I speak from a pretty intimate acquaintance with the circumstances of my parish) why they should not, instead of those days^ be held on the Monday, Wed- nesday, and Friday. Do not you think that a Monday market might lead the farmers to prepare their hay for the market on the previous Sunday ? — I conceive not ; I know of no necessity of the kiiad, because the hay- binder is generally a person perfectly independent of all other la- bourers. In most farms there is a man who binds the hay, and who does little more, and that man might just as well be employed on the Saturday evening to bind the hay, when it would be loaded on the cart ready for the Monday mai-ket ; the habit is to load it overnight, as they start very early. If the market were held on the Monday, might it not compel farmers who send hay from a much greater distance than Harrow to travel on Sunday, in order to reach the Monday market ? — It is not worth while to send hay by horse carriage any considerable distance 5 and the bulk of that which is sent up beyond a certain distance, is sent by canals. What may be the extreme distance from which it is sent by land 11 Uev. J. IV. Cunnitigham. carriage ? — My impression is, not more than twenty miles, and I shovild think very rarely so much. Then the witness is of opinion that if the market was held on a Monday that no hay would be brought from a greater distance than would admit of its traveUing on the Sunday night and Monday morning ? — I conceive the great bulk of the hay that would be brought to the London market for Monday morning would be brought with the greatest facility on that morning. Do you know what hour the hay-market commences on tlie morning } — I do not. I have stated as one means of promoting the observance of the Sabbath that a constraint should be laid on the farmers to pay by a given hour on the Saturday, and to facilitate this, that a change should be made in the days of the hay-market to Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Another suggestion, with respect to the farmers, wovild be, to make all payments illegal on the Sunday ; I believe the payment of any other debt on that day is illegal. I am sure the observation of the Sabbath will never be ac- complished without some such arrangement. As the farmers have three days in the week for markets, could they not be prevailed on to make their payments on their return from the Thiirsday market instead of waiting for their payments after the Saturday market ? — I have conversed with farmers on the point, and the difficulty appears to be this, that they would lose their hold on the men for the rest of the week ; men addicted to drunkenness would go off when they got their wages on Thursday night. Do you know whether the farmers have tried the experiment ? — Not that I am aware of in my own parish ; but my impression is, that if it were tried it would fail, particularly on the ground I have named, and especially while beer-houses exist as they do. At what hour should you wish the farmers to pay their men, and on what day ? — I should think the farmer ought to pay his men on Saturday night in summer at the latest before nine o'clock ; and in winter before six. Do the farm-servants require to make any marketing on Satur- day night after receiving their wages ? — Those called farm-servants have no occasion for marketing, as they live in the house ; but the common labourer, employed by tlie farmex% would have to go to the shop after getting his wages. Then do you conceive the farming labourer would have sufficient time to go to the shop after getting his wages at nine o'clock on Saturday night ? — In my own parish he certainly would. Do they make purchases in your parish on Sunday morning ? — They do at present to a considerable amount : I have had the utmost difficulty in endeavouring to check it, and have altogether failed. Do you conceive that, if the law compelled all shops to be closed on Sunday morning, thereby preventing the labourer getting M'hat he required for the use of his family, it would produce a disposition in the farmer to pay at a reasonable hour on the Saturday ? — It is a question that it would be difficult to answer ; the farmers in Middlesex, and in the neighbourhood of London, are of so inferior a class, that I am convinced they would, in many instances, oppose the greatest resistance to it 3 I hardly know how it would act, con- Rev. J. W. Cunningham. 12 sidering the superabundance of labourers in the country, and that the poor are placed in a state of the most implicit dependence upon the arbitrary will of the farmer ; I am inclined to think therefore that it would operate very little. Have the goodness Vo state generally to the Committee what you have to complain of with regard to publicans and beer-houses ? — There is an almost universal abuse of the Sabbath-day, as respects the public-houses and beer-houses ; this evil has much increased since the institution of the beer-houses. Are there not certain hours prescribed by the statute for regu- lating the public-houses and beer-houses on a Sunday, and are they enforced in the country ? — There are no hours fixed, I believe, for closing public-houses by statute ; there is an Act of Parliament, fixing the hour of closing beer-houses ; but in both cases it is found impossible to prevent the desecration of the Sabbath. As to the power vested in the magistrates to regulate the hours in public - houses, there has been much difference of opinion among the ma- gistrates of our own hundred. Has the evil of which you complain much increased since the establishment of beer-houses ? — Exceedingly. Do the beer-houses bear a worse character than the public- houses ? — I think so ; and the difficulty of regulating them is be- yond measure greater ; because, in the case of a publican, if his licence to sell liquors is removed, the man is ruined ; but in the case of the beer-houses, as they generally have some shop or trade besides the beer-shop, little comparative mischief is done to the pro- prietor of the beer-house by removing his licence. Are you of opinion that drunkenness and riot have increased in the evening of the Lord's day since the establishment of beer- houses ? — I think every moral evil almost in my own parish has been increased by the establishment of beer-houses. Are the beer-houses attended solely by the lower classes , or partly by the lower classes and partly by those above the lower class ? — In my own parish almost exclusively by the lower orders. Do the magistrates find additional difficulty in regulating beer- houses to arise from their multiplicity and their remote locality ? — I should think so ; but I am hardly able to answer the question. Do the farmers complain of the beer-houses ? — The farmers make the strongest complaints on the subject. In what respect ? — In the first place, as respects the deteriorated character of their labourers ; in the second place, as respects the increase of temptation to drink, by the beer being brought so much closer to the men ; and thirdly, because when a man runs away from his work, although they were able to find him when there was perhaps only one public-house, they are now not able where there are half a dozen places. The remedies which had occurred to my- self as to public-houses, were these : in the first place, not to allow pay-tables at public-houses or beer-houses ; secondly, as in Holland, to give the publican no claim for debts contracted on the Sabbath-day J thirdly, to make the fine for drunkenness at least double on the Sabbath-day. According to the present law, drinking is punished by the stocks in case of non-payment of the fine, is it not ? — Yes. 13 Rev. J. IV. Cuntiingham. Are you in the habit of using the stocks in your parisli ? — Not of late years. You do not consider it desirable the use of stocks should be re- vived ? — I cannot say that I do ; the offence to public feeling is so great ; in my own parish we have been obliged, in consequence of the non-payment of fines, to send persons to the tread-mill as a punishment for repeated drunkenness. Would you prefer a short imprisonment to being confined in the stocks .-* — I think so, as it is a less offence to public feeling; but such are the evils of promiscuous confinement, that it is very du- bious. The third class of persons as to whom I wish to take the liberty of suggesting certain remedies, are the shopkeepers. Have the goodness to state what trade is carried on on a Sunday in your parish ? — Shops of ordinary kind 3 we have'no manufactory. Are they all open ? — Very nearly all, for some part of the day. Besides provision shops ? — Yes, shops of all kinds (with few ex- ceptions, of persons who are withheld from it by moral obligations) are open. During what hours are they kept open of a Sunday ? — Many of them have been in the habit of closing at 10 o'clock, and very few have been kept open after. Are there any other reasons assigned for keeping open the shops, besides those of the labourers being paid at so late an hour by the farmers ? — During two or three months of the year there are a large number of extra-parochial labourers ; strangers come up to do the grass and harvest work, chiefly Irish, and their irregular and tumultuous habits exceedingly increase the difficulty. Have they the apology for such habits, of being paid on Sunday morning like the other labourers ? — Yes ; or else so exceedingly late on Saturday night that it is impossible for them to get what they want ; but many of them are paid on Sunday morning. Have the farmers at that season also the apology of the hay- market for withholding their payment to so late an hour ; are they not then exclusively employed in making the hay ? — Not exclusive- ly ; many have still to get money for Saturday evening by the hay which they send to the market. What other remedies could you suggest for putting a stop to this general trading on Sunday, other than that of obtaining the pay- ment of wages at an early hour on Saturday ?— First, to make the testimony of one witness sufficient to convict of the offence of sell- ing on Sunday : it is an obstacle in the way of convictions for this offence that, although as a minister of religion I am willing to en- counter the odium of going to the shop and laying the information, it is very difficult to find others to do it 3 I think therefore that the testimony of one witness on oath should be sufficient to convict. At present, the magistrate requires one person to lay the information on oath, and another to prove the sale upon oath, which practically amounts to two witnesses ; 2dly, to increase the fine for selling on that day, especially on the repetition of the offence, I mean by an accumulative penalty ; 3dly, to make debts contracted on that day illegal ; 4thly, to make the language of the Act more definite, espe- cially as respects the expression " works of necessity and charity," which are so indefinite that a magistrate may interpret them just as Rev. J. W. Cunningham. 14 he will. I conceive that the words " necessity and charity" rather encumber the Act than improve it ; however essential to a code of morals, they are not fit subjects of human legislation. I find it to be the almost uniform desire of the tradesmen and shopkeepers in my own parish that the law were such as to compel every tradesman to close his shop on the Sunday. Has that wish been expressed by those who are now in the habit of keeping their shops open on that day ? — Yes ; the only exception I should state to this is the butchers, who complain of the difiiculty of keeping their meat during certain months of the year on Sun- day : I know myself, however, several places where no meat is sold on the Sunday, and in which it does not appear that the least prac- tical inconveiaience has arisen from the arrangement. At present the batchers, knowing that they can sell on Sunday morning, kill meat for the express purpose of selling on Sunday mornings ; do they not ? — Yes. Whereas, were the law altered, might they not so arrange as to have merely a sufficiency to sell on Saturday evenings 7 — Most certainly. I might just mention also that several of the tradesmen who, from moral feeling, have been led to shut up their shops on the Sunday, have stated to me that they have not incurred the smallest loss by the change, because the persons who have dealt with them have found another opportunity of coming ; and they have got rid chiefly of the customers who did not pay at all. And yet the knowledge of that fact has not been sufficient to induce the other traders to follow their good example ? — No. In suggesting some alterations as to the amendment of the language of the Act respecting the Lord's day, it seems to me much to be desired that some alterations should be introduced as to the language of what has been called the " Book of Sports." Every minister of religion, anxious for the moral welfare of his parish, finds himself exceedingly encumbered by that Act ; it prevents us from stopping all amusements on a Sunday which are not in themselves illegal. Is the witness aware that the "Book of Sports" has never been recognized by Act of Parliament, and was simply promulgated by Royal Proclamation ? — I was not aware of the fact ; but I know that magistrates, on the strength of the " Book of Sports," refuse to interfere with games, except such as are unlawful, on the Sunday. Is the witness aware that the " Book of Sports" presumes that all who engage in the sports in the afternoon have been at some place of worship in the early part of the day ? — I am aware of that fact. Do the magistrates pay respect to that regulation ? — Not in the smallest degree. Is there much cattle sent up to Smithfield market from Harrow ? — No large number of cattle, but a considerable number of sheep. Do they usually pass on Sunday for the Monday market ? — They are all sent off from the parish of Harrow on Sunday morning. Do you conceive that it would be desirable to change the day of Smithfield market from Monday to Tuesday, and thereby put an end to sending the sheep on the Sunday ? — I have given consider- able attention to that subject for many years of my life, and have the clearest conviction that the greatest moral benefits would arise from such a change in the day of the market. 15 Rei\ J. W. Cunningham. Do the sheep salesmen, and others complain of having to employ Sunday in preparing their sheep for market? — I have at different times conversed with the jjcrsons engaged in sending sheep to market ; and I may state that it is their universal wish, as well as that of the butchers of the place, that such a change should be made. Can the witness state what number of miles the sheep can be driven in one day ? — I have understood that the sheep would be in- jured for market by being driven much above 15 miles. What the Committee wish to ascertain is, whether, although Harrow would benefit by such a change in the day of the market, a corresponding benefit would accrue to other parts of the country further from town? — I cannot conceive that any serious injury would arise to any class of persons, because at a distance from London the habit is to hire land for the night, in which the sheep are folded or turn out ; and the utmost extent of the evil would be that they should stop during the Sabbath-day in the field that was so hired. Then, in point of fact, would not the sheep be in a better state for market which came from a great distance, by having a day of rest previous to entering London ? — Yes, that is what I have been informed by drovers. Have you conversed with drovers on that subject ? — Yes, with sheep salesmen and drovers ; and the above is their opinion. You have stated your opinion, that payment on the Sabbath-day should be rjiade illegal ; are you of opinion that the Act which might declare such a payment to be illegal, should further declare that a penalty would be exacted in case of the non-payment of wages on Saturday ? — That, as it appears to me, would be more eifectual ; but I am not a competent judge upon the subject ; I have never given my mind to the point. There is one additional remark I would wish to take the liberty of making ; although I am deeply sensible that every attempt to place the obligation to observe the Sabbath on any other basis than that of Divine obligation, is only to weaken its authority, yet it seems to me important to show its value as a civil institution. To this end, I could, as a parochial minister, state many weighty facts, but I wish to confine myself to one : I have had the opportunity of knowing the result of an examination as to the quantity of work done, and the money expended in a public institution employing more than 2,000 labourers. For a cer- tain number of years these labourers were employed on the Sabbath ; and the Government had, in consequence, as they paid double wages on the Sunday, incurred the expense of eight days instead of six. After the death of the individual presiding over this institu- tion, his successor determined to employ the labourers only six days. By a most careful examination of the quantity of work done by the labourers during the two periods, it was ascertained that the quantity of labour done by the same men under the system of em- ploying them six days of the week was rather more than the labour done on the system of employing them the seven days. The gentle- man presiding over that institution imputed this to two causes : in the first place, to the demoralization of the people, under the first Rev. J. fV. Cunningham. 16 system ; and in the second place, to the exhaustion of their bodily strength, which he said was visible to the most casul observer. Do you conceive the habitual desecration of the Lord's day by the farmers, sheep salesmen, and labourers, has produced any marked deterioration ^of moral and religious charater in those classes ? — I wish to state, that in this, as in every other instance^ the worst moral, civil, and political consequences appear to me to follow from the breach of the Sabbath. The individuals engaged in the sale of sheep are, in point of fact, in a worse condition, are they not, than the shopkeepers ? — I do not think uniformly so ; they send the sheep off at five or six o'clock in the morning, and they might then come to places of worship only that most of them follow their sheep to Smithfield. It has generally been stated in evidence, that when men undergo much bodily labour in the early part of the Sabbath, they are not disposed to go to a place of worship in the afternoon ; is that so in your experience .'' — I should say that the persons engaged in great bodily labour, (who are certainly not very numerous in my own parish,) but rarely attend any place of worship ; and that those who trade part of the Sabbath, if they attend church, come there to little purpose. When you have endeavoured to enforce the duty of observing the Sabbath upon the lower classes, do they frequently allege the example of those in a higher sphere of life in justification of their own neglect and violation of that day ? — Continually ; and in more than one instance, the meeting of Cabinet Ministers on that day. Is there much Sunday travelling through Harrow, or much Sun- day junketing to Harrow, on the Lord's day by the upper or middle classes ? — Harrow is no thoroughfare ; but a large number of persons visit Harrow for the purpose of pleasure on the Sunday. Do persons who so frequent Harrow regale themselves with tea, or are spirits much consumed on that day ? — They generally dine at the different inns ; it is impossible for me to say how they em- ploy themselves, except that I may be led to conjectures on the subject, by seeing some of them go back drunk in the evening. I should think a considerable increase on the Sunday tolls would assist the Government, make travelling cheaper on other days, and im- prove the morals of the country ; I am sure it would much increase the comfort of suburban parishes. The Rev. J. T. BARRETT, D. D., called in ; and examined. Are you Curate of St. John's Church, Waterloo-road ? — I am. Will you have the goodness to state the condition of those dis- tricts inhabited by mechanics and the lower orders on a Sunday morning in your neighbourhood, with regard to the observance of the Lord's day? — They are in the most deplorable condition. Will you state some particulars ? — The New Cut, which includes a long street from the Marsh-gate to Blackfriars, is more like a fair than a market on the Lord's day. Attempts have been made for many months by me, as the minister of the place, and as a magi- strate, to render the inhabitants assistance in preventing the evils that have existed in this district, even to keep the place in a state of ordinary decency ; and I have failed in all those attempts, in consequence of the insufficieiicy of the law. 17 Iit:v. Dr. BunelL Do you agree with Dr. D'Oyley, that all the respectable trades- people of your district are equally anxious to have the law enforced ? — I have conversed with a number of them expressly on the sub- ject, and I am not only satisfied they wish it to be done, but that many of them are most anxious to have it done ; I have even found parishioners who have told me they could not attend to the Sacra- ment, from the state which their consciences were placed in from the necessity of attending to the support of their families, by open- ing their shops on a Sunday. The person who sets the penalty at defiance, opens his shop at the expense of the person who woidd observe the law ; and they are obliged in their own defence to carry on their trade, which is attended with a constaiit pressure upon their consciences and religious feelings. I am speaking especially of butchers, grocers, and greengrocers. Has it ever come under your observation, that any set of cus- tomers would leave tradesmen with whom they had dealt, and go to another, if he did not keep his shop open on the Sabbath-day ? — I have been repeatedly assured that is the fact. Do you find generally there the same disapprobation of the prac- tice on the part of the poor people who are obliged to resort to the market on a Sunday ^ do you find there the same feeling of conscience and dislike to the practice on the part of the buyers } — The buyers are generally work-people, who are sufferers most essentially, and who would be very glad, I should conceive, to have tlie Svmday trade excluded altogether. The system whi».h prevails iii my dis- trict, which is connected with the water, being on the borders of the Thames, is one which is peculiarly exposed to evil, in conse- quence of paying the workmen on a Saturday night ; they are paid generallj'^, I believe, before seven o'clock ; there may be excepticms, but they are paid generally by all the respectable masters before seven o'clock. The public-houses are now open during the greater part of the night, for there is no hour at which they are closed. I have witnessed them myself open nearer one o'clock than 1*2. The men resort to the public-houses, and they will stay there, I am told, till two or three o'clock in the morning, or until thej^ are driven out by any accidental disturbance which the interference of the police may prevent, and rout them from their haunts. They return home ; they w'ill lie upon their beds till the morning breaks, and then roll into the public- house again, where they will stay till the last hour at which the shoj^s are permitted to be opened, when perhaps the wife urges the husband to come out and go to market, after the money is in a great measure spent, and the poor families of course frequently suffer. Are workmen or labourers paid by their employers generally, or by an agent at the public-houses } — That has prevailed more for- merly than it has prevailed recently : I have taken great pains to prevent it, by speaking to the proprietors of large concerns, but the system does still prevail ; and I believe, in many instances where it does prevail, it pre\ ails to a greater extent than is generally un- derstood, for the publican not only receives the money from the master by a cheque, but I have been informed that he secretes or keeps back, from various causes, the moment of receiving the money. There is, in consequence of the people being paid their money at No. VII. B Rev. Dr. Barrett. 18 the public-house, a source of credit at the public-house, the publican knowing he is secure in the payment of his money on Saturday night. The workpeople go to the public-house to be paid, and the answer is. The money is not yet come. I have been told by persons upon whose veracity I can rely, that that system will be carried on till 11 or 12 o'clock at night, the publican saying, the money is not yet come ; and consequently the workman is led on to drink, and the payment is withheld till he is in a state of intoxication. The publican is made the distributor of the money ? — Yes, it is frequently paid by the publican to the workman ; and the publican, I have been told, sometimes does not acknowledge the receipt of the money from the master at an earlier period of the evening, but keeps it back in order to get the workman's custom. Do you think it would be practicable to shut up the public-houses at an earlier period on a Saturday evening ? — You could not shut them up very early ; I should think not before 1 1 o'clock. Have you had any conversations with the master-tradespeople ? — Innumerable. Do you think they are inclined to co-operate with you in altering the present system ? — They are very much inclined, but under the existing law, they could not do it to any good effect. It is not a matter of law that they should make the publican their agent ? — No, but public-houses being open on a Sunday morn- ing, they are careless of the matter on a Saturday night. Is there any law, or is it a matter of convenience, that the publi- can should be made the agent for paying the money ? — It is a matter of convenience to the master, as he gives it by a cheque. Do you think if there was no Sunday market the people would be compelled to make their purchases on Saturday night ? — I have no doubt they would. Have you ever remonstrated with any of those master-trades- people with regard to this practice, particularly of paying the money over to the publicans ? — Yes. In what spirit have your remonstrances been made ? — As a minister. How have they received your remonstrances } — I have received this answer from some persons, " We cannot do otherwise ; it is the custom with us," and so forth. With others I have found a disposition to have the system changed, and some gentlemen have gone so far as to take the best measure that can be adopted of pay- ing the money on a Friday instead of Saturday. Do you know of any cases where such distributions are made by the publican on Sunday morning ? — No, not in Lambeth. Is it your opinion, unless both classes were to co-operate with you, all laws will be in vain ? — I do not know that. If they persist in paying through the hands of the publican, what law can check the evil consequences which must result from that > — The remedy would arise of preventing the sale on Sunday morning. Would that compel the master-tradespeople to pay with their own hands at an earlier period? — No doubt it would compel them to pay at an earlier period. The class of men they employ would not endure it. Is there much resort to the market on a Saturday night after the 19 Hev. Dr. Barrett. time the wages are paid ? — To a great extent ; the streets are hlocked up, and they are thronging very much in the streets espe- cially. The new police can speak more to that. You are of opinion if the law prohil)its Sunday markets and shops being open on Sunday, it would have a moral influence, in compelling the master to pay at a reasonable hour on a Saturday evening ? — Certainly. Have you any other remark to make with regard to Saturday evening ? — I should say that when the system of paying on a Satur- day evening has been opposed by me, they argue, if the workmen were to be paid on a Friday, he would constantly pass the Saturday in idleness. That is their principal argument ; and I answer, if a man will spend a day in idleness and drinking, it is much better he should spend the Saturday in idleness and drinking than the Sunday; because if he have spent his money on a Saturday night, he gets sober on the Sunday, and is fit for work on the Monday ; but if he gets drunk on the Sunday he is unfit for work on the Monday, and that has had its effect on persons in business. As your duty has reference to the Sabbath, does not drinking on a Saturday make a man as incapable of going to chvirch on a Sunday, as drinking on a Sunday would make him unfit for work on a Mon- day? — I think not, for a man is humiliated when he awakes on Sunday, and finds himself in such a situation. You stated some master-tradesmen, in consequence of your re- monstrances, had changed the day of payment from Saturday to Friday ; with what effect was that followed ? - One gentleman, who has tried it for some time, informs me he has done it with good effect ; another person who I understood was on the point of doing it, was taken from us by death. Do you know of others who have tried the experiment ? — I have been told the experiment has been carried to a great extent in one of the neighbouring parishes, I think in Poplar, with very beneficial effects. Has it been attended with the bad effect which those who argued as to the man spending the Saturday in drunkenness, imagined it would be attended with ? — On the contrary, one person who has tried it, has said to me, that it has given the wife of the labourer an opportunity of laying in her stores with greater advantage on a Saturday than she could have done on a Sunday ; the few hours the poor otherwise have on Saturday evening press upon them so closely, that they cannot choose an advantageous market. When they can go to some distance they have the opportunity of saving money by laying it out with greater advantage ; so that the poor people have thus been benefited, independent of the observance of the Lord's day. How has the husband been employed on the Sabbath who has received his wages on Friday ? — The practice goes on ; and there- fore I presume the workman's conduct has been satisfactory to the master. I have no doubt whatever of the goodness of the practice. Then you would say the Sunday market is disadvantageous to the poor ? — Most disadvantageous. Inasmuch as they have not time to go from one place to another? — Yes, and not only they have not time to go from one place to another, but they obtain things of an inferior quality. Rev. Dr. Barrett. 20 Do the facts, as far as you know, beai- out those arguments of the master-tradespeople, that the Saturday would be consumed in idleness, if they paid their workmen on a Friday ? — No ; where the men have been paid on a Friday, the master who pays his men on a Friday is considered to have as respectable a gang of men as any in the district, and a very large one. Has any case come under your observation where the practice of paying on a Friday has been abandoned, as being a bad practice ? — None. Have you any reason to suppose any prejudice exists in the mind of the workmen themselves with regard to the payment on a Friday ? — I conceive it to be a matter of perfect indifference to them. Have you ever heard it said, the workman wishes to have his week's work finished at the time he receives payment .'' — I have not ; but one set of men, shoemakers, very often carry home their work very late on Saturday night ; for many of them speiid their money on Sunday and Monday in idleness and drinking, and therefore they begin their week's work very late in the week, and they do not carry it home till twelve o'clock on the Saturday night, or per- haps later. Then the only remedy for that habit of beginning to work late in the week would be to stop the Sunday's drinking ? — I do not know how far that wotild prevent their passing the Sunday in idleness, for the wages of shoemakers are very high, and they generally spend the Monday also in a state of idleness. Does not a great portion of Monday's idleness proceed from the Sunday's drinking? — That I cannot sayj they get large sums of money, and they do not exhaust it on the Sunday, but spend what remains on the Monday. You have stated the dislike of some of the sellers to keep open their shops on the Siindays ; have you ever made any inquiries among the lower orders as to that ? — Yes. Do you think they, in general, like it or dislike it?— I think the families would all prefer having a day's market instead of having a few hours' market. Have you seen many families who would rather purchase on the Saturday night than go to market on the Sunday? — Certainly. From a moral feeling ? — Yes. And also from a feeling that it was to their own pecuniary in- terest ? — Yes. You think it would be to the interest of the tradespeople and of the poor people to close the shops on Sunday ? — Yes. Have many of the lower classes a conscientious feeling upon the subject of observing the Sabbath? — I think many have. Can they indulge that feeling at the present moment, or are they not compelled, in spite of it, to go to market on a Sunday morning ? — They are, if they cannot get their wages till so very late. In many instances might not the poor make their marketing on Saturday night who now make it on Sunday morning, if they knew they could not obtain articles on Sunday morning ? — Certainly. The whole of the Sunday marketing does not arise out of the late payment of wages } — Certainly not. But frv)m a consciousness they can obtain what they require on p Sunday morning ? — Yes, ^1 Wee. Dr. Barren. Should you say Sunday morning is a scene of greater rioting and confusion in your district than any other morning in the week ? — Unquestionably so. You stated, with regard to the New Cut, the state of things as to the desecration of the Sabbath was most deplorable ; do you speak with regard to the whole or a portion of the day ? — I speak of the morning in particular. Do the inhabitants of your parish complain of the desecration of the Sabbath ? — The great majority of them. You mentioned, on the Sunday mornings considerable rioting and confusion takes place ; do quarrels and assaults occur ? — I can- not speak from my personal knowledge, though I have gone with the churchwardens more than once, with a view to be satisfied of the state of things, and I found it was more like a fair than a market. Not only the necessaries of life were to be sold, I mean provisions, l)ut China shops w-ere open, hatmakcrs' and clothes shops, and the whole place seemed to be in a state of business, not only among the inhabitants, but the number I saw induced me to ask the question, and the answer led me to believe that a number of persons came over from Westminster ; drawn by the circum- stance of the facility of selling their goods there from the concourse of people, they fix their stalls in the street. Then they have not only their shops open, but there are stalls in the street ? — Yes. You stated there w ere other articles sold besides the necessaries of life, and even clothes shops were open ? — Yes, clothes shops, hat shops, and china shops. In short, nearly all the business that is done on other days in the ■week is done on the Sunday ? — Yes ; and it is quiet on any other day in the week, compared to what I ha\ e seen it on Sunday morning. Do carts and waggons pass on Sunday ? — Not many. Do they occasioiially i* — I do not see them on Sunday. Will you have the goodness to describe what effort? have been made by the magistrates under the existing law to put a stop to the practice ? — Several applications have been made to me from time to time, before I was in commission and since. An application was made some months ago, which was carried up to the Bench : a special petty sessions was held, and the Bench came to some re- solution as to the measures which should be adopted by the magis- trates generally, in order to have the same regulations in the dif- ferent parishes. The resujt was a memorial to the Secretary of State, and a copy was sent to his Grace the Archbishop of Canter- bury, requesting he would confer with Lord Melbourne upon it ; for the magistrates felt themselves perfectly incapable, with the powers they now possess, to meet the question in the way they wished to meet it. What magistrates did you confer with ? — The magistrates of the east half- hundred of Brixton. The inhabitants likewise memorialized the churchwardens at my suggestion, requesting them to do the duties of their office in the most effective way they could, offering at the same time to render them their personal assistance. They did that for some time. They published notices that they would enforce the law, and those notices were met on the part of some of the Rev. Dr. Barrett. 22 inhabitants by counter-placards of a most offensive nature, such as this : "This Shop will be open as usual on Sunday ;" " Religious Persecution," and so on. I believe, at this moment, there is one of these placards on a greengrocer's shop, which meets my eye every day I go to church, stating that the attempts made to put them dovv^n were most oppressive and offensive to their feelings ; thatthey were carried on on the principles of the Jesuits, and to the effect that there was a wish to introduce a monkish system. Those placards were of various forms and sizes, aiid appeared in different places about the parish. The inhabitants and parish officers likewise met with great opposition, I am informed, from some of the low, petty ti'adesm:n, in the New Cut, who showed a disposition to mob them and inter- fere with them. I believe it got to such an extent, that the police were called in. There was a circumstance of a man getting out upon the roof of his house, and ringing [a large dustman's bell at the time the chvirch bell was ringing, and close upon the hour of Divine service, so as to collect a mob and cause a disturbance of a character which induced the police to interfere, and they assembled in great numbers at a place near at hand. In consequence of that violent opposition, and the abuse of this low rabble, the respectable part of the inhabitants withheld themselves from co-operating with the parish officers, and the measure has not been carried on in that vigorous manner in which it was done in the first instance. It is from a large body of those persons that a petitioia has been sent to the House of Commons. What class of persons are those who oppose them ; are they the low Irish ? — There are a great number of low Irish in the neigh- bourhood. They are not exclusively Irish ? — No ; but I believe the place is disturbed occasionally by large gangs of Irish, not merely assembled on these occasions, but for their sports and other things, so as to annoy the neighbourhood very much. Can you state wherein consists the inefficiency of the law ? — It arises, in my opinion, from the great difficulty, almost amounting to impossibility, of inflicting the penalty for buying and selling on the Lord's day, and when it is inflicted, from its being perfectly in- significant to the tradesmen, who make a large profit in the teeth of it. Is not the penalty 5s. ? — Yes. And that can only be levied for one act ? — Yes. So that a man may go on selling the whole day subject only to a penalty of 5s. ? — Yes, and that is a circumstance which operates to the injury of the tradesman who respects the law. They may violate the law a hundred times, and only pay one penalty ? — Yes ; I believe it was said by Lord Mansfield, in a question which occurred upon this subject, " You would not fine a tailor for every stitch he takes." Has not that been altered since Lord Mansfield's time ? — I am not aware that it has. It is impossible also to issue a warrant for the seizure of goods on the Lord's day 3 though the goods are forfeited you cannot seize them, for the law forbids any warrant being issued except in a criminal matter. You cannot issue a warrant till next day ? — No, when the goods cannot be identified. 23 Rev. Dr. Barrett. Have you any thing further to state with respect to the inefficiency of the law ? — That in consequence of the defect of the law, the of- fenders set the magistrates at defiance. In other cases than those you have alluded to ? — When threatened to be summoned for the penalty, they have said " We will not give you the trouble to summon us, we will send you the penalty." What do you conceive would be a sufficient penalty to put a stop to the practice ? — The jjresent penalty would have some effect if it was possible to enforce it ; but still it is not a sufficient one. Can you suggest any means by which it could be enforced? — I cannot ; for the laying the information and the proof of buying and selling is so exceedingly difficult, that I am incompetent to say how it can be enforced. Is the difficulty of proof greater on the Sabbath than on any other day .'' — The proof of the sale is at all times very difficult. Is the proof of a sale on the Sabbath more difficult than on any other day ? — It is more difficult, because there is more caution used to prevent your getting a knowledge of the fact. Suppose the penalty of os. to continue, and that penalty were to apply to each act, do you think that would be sufficient ? — I should suggest the penalty ought to accumulate for each subsequent offence. Suppose the shopkeeper to sell one article on the Sabbath, do you conceive that should subject him to a penalty of 5*. and if he repeated the offence, to a greater penalty, and so on ? — Yes, You think the accumulation of the penalty for selling to a variety of persons would be a sufficient check ? — I am hardly enabled to speak positively, but I think it would. You mean accumulating in amount, not making the penalty at- tach to each act ? — Yes. Do you think the present penalty of 5s. if instead of being affixed to the commission of the offence for the whole day were to apply to each act, that would be a sufficient check to prevent selling on the Sabbath ? — I should question it. The difficulty of proving a num- ber of cases in the day would prevent it. You cannot inflict three or four penalties in a day. I think the weight of the penalty must depend upon the value of the property sold, or rather the profit a man makes by his day's sale; and if any penalty you can affix will amount in its aggregate to a greater sum than he gains, you will have a preventive, and not from any thing short of that. Do you think the proof of the offence by the oath of one credible witness would be sufficient ? — I believe that is now the case. You stated there was a difficulty in obtaining convictions ? — A difficulty in obtaining evidence. Do you think a moderate penalty, suited to the present value of money, to be levied at the discretion of the magistrates, would be advisable ? — I do not think it advisable to leave any thing to the discretion of the magistrates. Are you of opinion that the penalties should be assimilated to the present value of money ? — Certainly. Do you think a discretion should be vested in the magistrate, as to inflicting the maximum penalty, or a reduced fine? — Discretion- ary power is always attended with great inconvenience ; I conceive Tiev. Dr. Barrett. ^4 the circumstance corrects itself. If there are 20 informations laid against a man, and they press three or four the magistrates would suggest the inexpediency of going into the other cases, and the penalties would not amount to a large sum by withdrawing the other informations. Is it your opinion tliat the penalties, as regulated by the present value of money, shoxtld not be left in the discretion of the magis- trates r — In my opinion they had better not be left in the discretion of the magistrates. Will you describe the state of the public-houses, and the habits of the people who frequent them on Sunday mornings, what effect is produced on the morals or habits of the people by frequenting public-houses on Sunday mornings ? — The greater part of the public- houses are open, I believe, generally as the day breaks, and they are filled with poor people, who remain till they are turned out, frequently at the moment of the church service, the magis- trates' order being that they shall be closed during the time of service. I may say, that every Sunday I go to church I see per- sons coming out of these houses, many of them in a state of stupi- dity, if not of drunkenness ; and I have seen them in a state of exposure as to their persons, which must have been particularly disgusting and offensive to females who had occasion to pass them. In the afternoon the houses are again filled with these people. There are public-houses and the beer- shops at opposite points of the street, and one or other is open all the afternoon, in conse- quence of the regulations of the Act of Parliament. The beer- shops are shut from two till five, and the hoxir of service is from six to eight 5 and consequently, when the public-house is shut dur- ing the hour of evening service, the beer-shop is open, and a great deal of drunkenness thus ensues. Are they open during the time of Divine service in the evening ? — No ; the public-houses are shut from half-past six till eight, but the beer- shops are open except from two to five. The hours of the beer- shops are defined by the Act, but the public-houses are only shut during the hours of Divine service. The consequence of having the public-houses and beer-shops open just before the service begins is, that you gain nothing by closing them, for they turn the people out when you wish the streets to be in a state of tranquillity ? — Yes, and in the afternoon they go from one to the other. I have in my mind a public-house and a beer- shop opposite to each other, and I have seen people come out of one and go across the way into the other. So that they are generally in a state of drunkenness during Divine service ? — Yes, frequently ; and beer also is carried about the streets during the hour of Sacrament. Are they at liberty to cry beer on Sunday at any time during Divine service ? — The magistrates have forbid it now, but it is diffi- cult to suppress, for the publican knowing the advantage of crying beer, goes to the door and rings the bell and calls beer loudly, which he tells you is for the purpose of letting the servant know he is there, but it is well known that it is to let the whole neighbour- hood know beer is going round. Did they walk through the streets crying beer before the magis- 25 Rev. Dr. Darrelt. trates forbade it ? — Yes, with their stands in their hands ; in the back streets to a great extent. Has the church service ever been interrupted, except at the time of the Sacrament, by the crying of any articles for sale? — I have heard mackarel cried when I have been in cluirch, and have sent the beadle to stop it ; I have stopped reading the lesson myself, be- cause the congregation could not hear it with attention. Is there any law to prevent its being sold in church time ? — It ought not to be sold during church time. It is allowed to be cried on Sunday ? — Yes, but not during service. You state the beer shops are ordered by the Act to be shut from two to five ? — Yes. Is it your opinion it would be better to shut them during the hours of Divine service than during any other stated hours ? — Certainly j I conceive the intention of the Legislature to be that they should be shut during Divine service, the more xisual hour of Divine service throughout the country being three o'clock, but in towns and places with large concourse of people they have the service in the evening rather than afternoon. You have spoken as a magistrate of the public effect produced by the sale of articles, and likewise by the piiblic-houses being open on Sunday ; can you as a clergyman state the moral effect which has been produced upon the families as well as the individuals them- selves, who so occupied the Sunday mornings ? — The most deplor- able effect upon the man himself, as well as upon the whole family. You think there is no advantage whatever in Sunday markets ? — No ; I think they pay more for their food, as well as have it of a worse quality, particularly in warm weather. Are all the articles exposed for sale on Sunday morning such as have been prepared for the Saturday's market .'' — No, I believe they prepare articles for the Sunday market itself. Butchers kill meat of a Saturday night. Then that would not be deteriorated ? — No ; but as in warm weather the meat would not keep till Monday morning, and as it is killed on Saturday night for Sunday consumption, the consumer m\ist pay for the chance of half a day's closing the shop. Do they kill on the Saturday or the previous evening? — It de- pends upon the state of the weather. If there is a greater loss on account of the shop being shut vip on Sunday, it creates a propor- tionate charge on the consumer. Are you of opinion it would injure the tradesman to shut up shop on a Sunday, or would he not make the same profit if hig customers were aware they must supply themselves on a Saturday evening ? — I believe the bulk of the tradespeople would be glad to have their shops closed after 12 o'clock on Saturday night. Would it diminish their profits ? — I believe they would prefer it on the score of profit as well as the score of leisure ; butchers par- ticularly. Do you think it would be possible to do entirely without Sunday market, without great inconvenience to the inhabitants ? — A few might suffer for a time, but very few. A few of what description ? — Shoemakers and persons who take their work home late on Saturday night, but the great majority would be benefited. Rev. Dr. Barrett. 26 Supposing the workpeople were paid on the Friday instead of the Saturday, in that case it would not operate to their prejudice ? — It woxild not. The inconvenience to the shoemakers would chiefly arise from their not beginning their work earlier in the week ? — Yes j they mostly make Monday a holiday, and take home their work late on the fol- lowing Saturday night. Do you recollect any thing you would wish to state to the Com- mittee with respect to the profanation of the Sabbath in your district, or any remedy that occurs to you ? — I should speak more emphatically with regard to the pviblic-houses. I believe the pub- licans would prefer having their houses shut during the morning, that they might have an opportunity of attending public worship, and have a day of rest for themselves, for I believe they have some of their most intemperate customers on tlie Sunday morning. Is it not your opinion that the tradesmen, generally speaking, would be glad of a law which prohibited altogether their keeping open their shops on a Sunday morning r — Unquestionably ; the are not only anxious for it, but many consider themselves injured by not having it. If they were all put on the same footing, they would prefer that to the present system ? — I am satisfied, from my intercourse with them, it would give general, I might almost say universal, satisfaction. To give them a day of rest ? — Yes, to exclude all acts of business. Do you think it would be a great inconvenience to the tradesman, or cause any great irregularity in the day, if an early Sunday market were allowed to be open until nine o'clock in the morning ? — The time of closing the market is always the worst time of the day, and if you say nine o'clock, not only you cannot get the business closed by that hour, but the people will not come till nine, thinking they will get the articles cheaper, so that you draw a large concourse of people at the time you ought to close. Then you agree with what Dr. D'Oyley stated, if you open the market at all on Sunday, it will be protracted beyond the hour of closing ? — Yes. It will be difficult to close it at any hour ? — Yes, because the pressure is greatest at the moment of closing. There is considerable difficulty now in enforcing the law with regard to the hour of closing 1 — Yes ; the magistrates allowed them till half-past nine, and then it became ten ; for the poor people were standing with their baskets and keys in their hands until almost the ^loment of closing, and a rush and disturbance arises at the moment you wish them to be quiet. Then you think the same difficulty would occur at whatever hour you fix upon for closing ? — Yes. Then you would prefer having the whole market closed .''— Yesj as a matter of comfort to all parties. Would jow say the same of the public-houses throughout the day ? — I would not. What would you suggest with regard to them ? — The law is at present evaded by the public-houses being shut only during the time of service. I would shut them some time before, so that the family might have time to go to church : but now they turn the people out at the very time of the service beginning •27 Bev. Dr. Barrett. Do you think it is important that the public-houses should be kept open the previous part of the morning ? — Yes, I think the poor man should have the power of getting his morning's meal as well as the rich. But not for tippling? — No, Do not many people take their morning draughts at these public- houses ? — Many spend their whole day there, Are they in the habit of breakfasting in public-houses instead of at home? — Many will take their food in the public-houses, and spend their whole morning there. Are those persons of dissolute habits, or persons who go there from necessity ? — I think the majority are persons of bad habits, who are tem])ted by the o})portunity. Are there many who take their meals there from necessity .'' — I should think not many. They generally have homes where they may obtain breakfast ? — Yes. Are there not single men who have no one to prepare breakfast for them ? — I believe the generality of single men are dune for, as it is called, by the person who lodges them. They could get accommodation at their lodgings .'' — Yes • I do not see that there is any accommodation in the way of eating at the public-houses, and I understand that now some are shutting up their tap-rooms. Why is that ? — One reason is, that they find great inconvenience from the beer-shops bting shut at ten o'clock, and they not being obliged to shut so long as they preserve order on their premises ; people roll out of the beer- shops into the public-houses ; and they find that so inconvenient, from the noise and confusion which occa- sionall)'^ arises, that they prefer having no tap-rooms at all. Is not the consequence of that, that while some public-houses shut tip their tap-rooms, other houses not so respectable are kept open ? — Yes, I know that is the case in our neighbourhood. The police are not able, though they do all they can, to enforce the law : they will shut the doors in the face of the police, and when they are gone, they will let the people in again. These houses are, or recently were, open with us all night. Are you aware Avhether it is the fact, that the beer-shops have led to other immoralities as well as the habit of excessive drinking ? — I cannot speak to it from my own exj^erience j but I have no he- sitation in believing it. Will you have the goodness to say what you have obser\ ed with respect to the beer shops ? — I am informed when boys or very young men have gone to the public-houses they have been told not to come there, not only by the publican but the other people there, and since the public-houses have improved in that respect, young people, who are sometimes thieves, and I believe women of loose character, go into those beer-houses 5 they will not be received by the respectable publicans, and they frequent those beer-houses on that account. In the country, I have had more experience of them, and they are highly detrimental, because they are always in places where you cannot get at them. I speak from my ow^n experience. Do you think that spirit shops might be kept shut on the whole Rev. Dr. Barrett. 28 of the Sunday without inconvenience to your parishioners ? — Tlie spirit shop with us is the victualler's ; we know of no distinction between a public-house and a licensed victualler. Still there are spirit shops selling only spirits ? — I believe they generally sell beer also-. Do you think the present practice with regard to baking meat on the Sabbath should be continued withaut alteration .? — I think it is very beneficial to the public. You would suggest no alteration upon that subject ? — None at all. Have you read over your evidence given before the Committee on Friday last ? — Yes. Are there any points on which you wish to make any observa- tion ? — One, respecting the public-houses being open on the Lord's day. I should wish to guard against an impression of my express- ing an opinion that they should be kept open for the purpose of tippling, or for accommodating people within them on the Lord's day. My views were, that they should be merely opened to give the poor man the opportunity of obtaining his beer for his dinner and his breakfast. You would not have them open so as to allow people to drink in the house ? — No, merely for the accommodation of the persons having beer at home. And supper, I suppose ? — I would say for his meals generally. Not to drink upon the premises ? — Not to drink upon the pre- mises. The evidence which I gave the other day might bear an in- terpretation that I had it in my view that the shops should be open. ifou do not mean that they should be open for that purpose during Divine service ? — Certainly not. At what hours do you conceive that they should be absolutely shut up on Sunday night ? — The earlier the better on a Sunday night ; they are now open to a very late hour. Until what hour ? — The night before last they were open till be- tween twelve and one in my neighbourhood. Drunken people were coming by my house, and I went out of my house to see that the disturbance was allayed. Is there any ho\ir fixed by the magistrates for shutting the shops on a Sunday night? — There is no fixed hourj eleven o'clock is spoken of, and they are requested to be prepared to shut at that time ; but there is no fixed hour. The last Act of Parliament^ allows the publican to keep open house as long as he maintains order. Is it not your opinion that in any new enactment it should be provided that houses should be closed at an earlier hour on Sunday evening ? — Certainly. Are there many persons who take their meals at public -houses ? — I think a few. Not many single men, you think ? — I think they are generally provided for at their own houses, where they are done for. Then, on the whole, you think there is very little eating in the public-houses ? — Very little. I believe you are a magistrate?—! am. Will you state what hours you would suggest for these beer- houses and public-houses to be open on the Lord's day for the supply of beer to the people .? — As near as possible to their meals. 29 John Twells, Esq. That is rather indefinite, and you could not well arrange an Act of Parliament ; it would require something definite ? — From eight to nine ; ten is too late an hour, for if a person goes there at ten, he goes home and takes his meal afterwards. Perhaps you would say from seven to nine ? — From seven to nine, I think. Are there not a great many people who breakfast late on Sunday ? —Yes. And get up late on Sunday ? — Some get up early, though they breakfast late ; in our neighbourhood a great many of them pass their time in the New Cut, in the amusement of the market, and then retire home to their meals. Are there not a good many people who work hard in the week, and think that rest is desirable on Sunday, and lie in bed later on Sunday ? — There may be some. That has not come under your observation ? — I do not think it has. I observe, that with respect to the generality of the poor round us, their habits are early ; they are water-side people. Would you say from one to three they should be open ? — From one to three. And in the evening at what time ? — Tliat must vary according to tl>e service of the churches. Perhaps you would say from eight to ten .''—Some churches have their service at different hours to others, and by fixing on one hour for all you would clash with the services. It would be over by eight ? — Our service is over by ten minutes past eight. Do you mean to say it is your opinion that the hours at which the shops are closed must be regulated by the local authorities, according to the hours of public service ? — In that point there must be a discretion with the magistrates, accommodating the people to the services of the church. Would you leave the hours at which these houses should be per- mitted to be open to be regulated by the parish authorities an d^the ma- gistrates? — I should not say that fully j leaving a discretionary power in the hands of the magistrates might leave it indefinite altogether. What mode would you propose then? — Guarding against the hours of service. Is there any other point in your evidence of Friday last on which you wish to make a remark ? — Not any. John Twells, Esq., called in; and examined. Where do you reside ? — Highbury-place, Ishngton. What is your business? — Banker. Have you turned your attention to the state of the Sabbath in your district ? — From being connected with a society that we formed about t<\o years ago, to aid the better observance of it. I have been con- nected with that society from its commencement. In what state did you find the parish as to Sunday trading? — It was complained of, that shops were very generally kept open, and the object was, by discreet and prudent means, to prevent not only the tradesmen from opening their shops, but to induce the more re- spectable part of the housekeepers to avoid receiving goods from them on the Sunday. Did you find the inhabitants generally willing to meet your views? John Twells, Esq. 30 — The parish was divided at that time into eight districts, ar.d several gentlemen took upon them to visit the shops in the district, and visited about 450 of them, and there was a very great disposition to close the shops, if it could be made general. Did any, in fact, close-in consequence of your application to them: — Some few did. But the others were deterred? — We found about 20 or 30 hostile ; they said they could not pay their rents, and they made decided objec- tion to it, but not more than that number out of the whole. Is it your opinion that they would not lose, in a pecuniary point of view, by closing on the Sabbath ? — I conceive they would not, and it is also the opinion of themselves, who of course are most competent to judge. It was the answer given by many, who said they were sure that it would be a benefit : some even said that they would be very happy to subscribe to any expense that might attend the attempt to accomplish such an object. Do you know of any attempt being made to shut the shops by en- forcing the present law ? — Not by us ; we used no coercive measure, we employed only persuasion. Are you aware that in other parts of the metropolis unsuccessful attempts have been made, by the aid of the present law, to shut the shops ? — I have heard it said that such attempt has been made, and the penalty has been paid, but it has been so trifling that it has not had the effect ; I have heard that in a general way. Do you conceive that it would be acceptable to the inhabitants of your neighbourhood to have a law to prevent trafficking on the Sun- day, and to give them that day as a day of rest ? — Yes. You do not consider they would regard it as an oppression, but a benefit ? — As a benefit certainly. Are all descriptions of shops open in your district ? — Not all descrip- tions ; they are chiefly confined to butchers, bakers, grocers, and con- fectioners. From looking at our minutes, I should say that out of 450 that we called upon, 140 perhaps were always closed, linen- drapers and others, who are not in the habit of opening on Sunday; 30 objected to close decidedly. What were the 140, of what trades ? — Chiefly the linen-drapers, and the more respectable description of shopkeepers. Are the public-houses open in your neighbourhood on the Sunday ? — -Yes. Do you conceive that they are the cause of much excess ? — Very much. Do you conceive that the shops being open on the Sunday is occa- sioned partly by the time at which the workmen are paid their wages ? — With us I think it is not the case : from the inquiries that we made, we found that where the workmen are paid late, they com- monly themselves were the cause of it ; and the masters complain of the workmen not coming to them earlier; they are chiefly those who work out, not under the roofs of their employers ; and when they bring their work in, they do not bring it till late on the Saturday evening. Is that because the work is not finished ? — The work is not finished, and they bring it in as late as they can ; the masters say they should be glad to get it in at seven or eight o'clock. Is that occasioned by their not working on Mondays ? — So the masters themselves state. Do you conceive that if the workmen were aware that they could 31 John Ttvells, Esq. not purchase on the Sunday morning, they would exert tliemselves to make their purchases on the Saturday evening? — No doubt of it ; it would then be a matter of necessity. And no disadvantage would arise to the workmen, in your opinion, from such an alteration ?— None whatever. Do you conceive that it would be necessary to have the public- houses open at any time during Sunday ? — I should conceive not ; none whatever. Would you make any exception, to allow beer to be purchased to be drunk at home? — No, I should not; for I think that any little in- convenience would very soon cure itself. Do you think that the publicans would be inclined to shut up their shops on a Sunday ?— That I cannot say ; I only know of one instance of a person who has a large assemblage at his tea-gardens, who said, he would be glad if opening on a Sunday was done away with ; it was a great annoyance to him to keep them open. Are there several tea-gardens in your parish ? — Yes ; several rather extensive ones. Are they conducted in an orderly manner? — There is no external indecorum. When this attempt of our's was first made we were rather at a loss for facts, and I went to one of our largest tea-gardens to ascer- tain the manner in which it was conducted. It was on a Sunday evening in the summer time, about nine o'clock : I could have had no idea of the number present. The first thing I did was to go into all the rooms, and all parts of the gardens, to ascertain the numbers as far as I could ; there were 4,400 persons at that time present. How were they employed ? — In drinking chiefly. Ardent spirits ? — Ardent spirits ; though they are called tea-gardens, I should say there were not five parties at tea ; the others were drinking ardent spirits, punch and beer ; as to tea it was out of the question, there was very little tea. Does your remark, respecting the propriety of the public-houses being closed on Sunday, apply to the tea-gardens ; would you recom- mend that no spiritsshouldbesold there? — Nospiritsshould be sold there. Do you conceive that if no spirits were used there, they would be so much frequented ? — No, I think not; I take it for granted that those 4,400 people would not have been there for drinking tea ; I took the trouble of dividing them ; there were about 2,500 men, 1,700 women, and about 200 children under 14 years of age. How were the children employed ? — Sitting in the booths with their friends. Did the parties present seem to drink to excess? — They were smok- ing and drinking, but there was no breach of order; they were quiet, excepting noisy and talkative. Up to what hour in the evening did you continue to observe them ? —Till 10. How much later did they go on in the tea-gardens ? — They do not allow them to come in after 10 j I returned again about 11, and there were about 500 then, and these 500 were getting noisy, approaching to disorder. Then you would wish a law to be passed to prevent the tea-gardens selling spirits ? — Yes, on Sunday, certainly. Or beer ? — Or beer ; or any thing of that kind. John Ttvells, Esq. 32 Are there a great number of stage-coaches and omnibuses in your parish on Sunday ? — Great numbers. Are they a source of inconvenience to the people of the neighbour- Iiood ? — Yes, the constant traffic that there is on a Sunday is always a great annoyance to well-regulated families. Is there a desire in that neighbourhood that they should be diminished in number? — It will be very acceptable to the inhabitants ; and I ap- prehend the same may be said of coach-proprietors as has been said of shopkeepers, they themselves would be very glad to be required to cease from their travelling on Sundays. Is not the Smithfield market the cause of much disturbance on the Sunday in your parish ? — A good deal. In the driving of cattle ? — In the driving of cattle, though we have a local Act that prevents their coming through only at certain hours ; I think it is between ten and four ; I am not quite clear as to the time. Is that Act strictly enforced? — Not strictly, though it is a check upon them. In evidence taken before a Committee of the House of Commons in June 1828, there is this sentence : " There was an Act passed four years ago that prohibits it," (the driving of cattle) "but the officers of the parish find it actually impossible to enforce the regulations of that Act ; they are in fact going through almost the whole of Sunday. There is a brutalizing effect produced by the whole Sunday being oc- cupied chief!)' by those drovers, without any public worship, and that is increasing with the increase of the market and the increase of the persons employed." Is there an improvement in the state of your parish since that time ? — I should conceive there must be some im- provement from that statement, because it is not so general now since we have had a local Act. Do you conceive that great improvement might be brought about in your parish by removing the Smithfield market from Monday to Tues- day ? — It would be an improvement to our parish, no doubt, because of course the cattle would not be required to come through on the Sunday. From the locality of our parish, we have a great deal of ground appro- priated for the reception of the Smitiifield cattle; they comeand lie there on the Saturday night and Sunday evening, ready to go into the market. In the event of the change suggested, would they not be driven in on the Monday evening ? — They would be driven in on the Monday evening. And your parish would be much less disturbed on the Sunday ? — Much less, certainly. Have any attempts been made to bring about such a change of the Smithfield market ? — Not by the parish ; the Bishop of Calcutta was very desirous, when he was there, that something of the kind should be done ; what steps he took I am not acquainted with. LONDON: Printed hy Ellerloii ^ Henderson, Gough Square, FOR THE SociPlfi for ^Iromotnig t^e Due ©bserbance of tIDc iLorO*6=J9flB ; AND SOLD By Messrs. Rivington, St. Paul's Church-yard and Waterloo Place ; by Messrs. SiJiiUCY, Fleet Street; by Messrs. Haichard, Piccadilly ; by Mr. Nisbkt, Berners Street; and at the above-named Society's Office, 12 Exeter Hall, Strand. Price "i^d. each, or 16s. per hundred. SCOTLAND. EVZDZSNCi: GIVEN BY THE REV. DUNCAN MACFARLANi^- REV. DR. LEE BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS On tl^e <©Ii0f rDanc e of tt)t ILort)*0=i3Jap. Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed August 6, 1832. The Rev. Duncan Macfarlan, called in; and examined. You are minister of the parish of Renfrew, in Scotland ? — Yes. Are you well acquainted with the history of the Sabbath observance in Scotland ; liave you given attention to that subject ? — I have given special attention to it, from various circumstances ; I was for several years minister of a charge in one of the suburbs of Glasgow, which brought me into contact with a variety of prevalent abuses. I was requested by one of the magistrates of the borough of Anderston, one of the suburbs of Glasgow, and within which 1 had my pastoral charge, to furnish him with some account of the state of the law upon that subject, which led me to an investigation of these also. In my present charge I was appointed convener of a committee of Presby- tery, to examine into the state of the law and abuses, and in this ca- pacity I have, during a twelvemonth past, been following up these inquiries. I am at present member of a committee of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland on that subject, and in this capacity have had access to a variety of documents belonging to the church. In addition to these opportunities, I have brought together my information in a work on the Sabbath, published in the beginning of this year. Can you state the period from which an improved observance of the Sabbath may be dated in Scotland ? — From the commencement of the Reformation in Scotland the progress of improvement was going on to at least the middle of the last century. From perhaps the year 1780 or 1790, there has in some parts of Scotland been a decrease of observance, arising from causes which will perhaps come better under some other topic of inquiry. Are you aware what effect the right observance of the Sabbath has had on public morals in that country ? — I must state in general that the morals of Scotland, previous to that period, are generally admitted to have been of a superior kind, and this was in a great measure ow- ing to the right observance of the Lord's day ; but I shall refer to a single fact as illustrative of this general statement. I now hold in my hand a work published by Dr. Cleland, of Glasgow, on the statistics of that city, and the lower ward of the county of Lanark, from which I read the follow extract : " The circuits at Glasgow are for the trial of prisoners belonging to the counties of Lanark, Renfrew, and Dum- No. VIII. A Hcv. Duncan filacfrnlan. 'i barton, whose joint population in 1821 amounted to 383,879 persons. From 1765 to 1830, both inclusive, 89 persons have been executed. During the first 12 years there were only six persons executed, while in the last 12 there were 37." The fact stated in this short extract will show that the morals of that part of Scotland must have been in n very improved state. I mean to say that the observance of the Sabbath tended to promote good morals, and that this extract shows the morals of that district cf the country to have been in a good state, seeing that there were so few executions, and especially whin taken in connexion with tlie fact, that criminals very generally declare that they have been led into the crimes, on account of which they suffer, by Sabbath-breaking. Will you mention some of the most efficient means employed in promoting this desirable state of things? — The following are some of the chief classes of means : civil enactments, repressing Sabbath pro- fanation, ecclesiastical discipline, family discipline, and voluntary as- sociations for promoting the due observance of tlic Lord's day. Per- baps I may be permitted to refer to these severally in brief detail : with regard to civil enactments, our statute books are full of them from the year 157'.) to the year 1701, I mean the Acts of the Scottish Parliament; those Acts are minute in specifying the forms of abuse, which puts it in the power of all parties to prosecute upon them ; they were specially put into the hands of ministers and kirk-sessions for execution, they being empowered to appoint an agent to act for them in that capacity, but they were at the same time retained in the hands of the civil magistrate, and by some of the later Acts it was put into the power of every householder to prosecute. As this I know has been questioned by some who have not attended to the subject, per- liaps I may be permitted to read a short extract, to show that not merely the kirk-sessions and magistrates, but every housekeeper, was permitted to prosecute under those Acts. I read from the Act 1696 of William 3d,— " And further considering how much profanity and immorality do abound over all the nation, to the dishonour of God, reproach of religion, and the discredit and weakening of the Government, notwithstanding of the many good laws that have been made against profaneness, therefore and for the better, more expedite and ef- fectual execution of the said laws, statutes and ordains, that in every parish where either sheriff, sheriff-dep,ute, lord of regality, or regality depute, or baillies or bailHe-deputes, stewards or steward-deputes, or magistrates of boroughs happen to reside, they shall and are hereby obliged and required to put the said laws against profanity and immorality into due and full execution, at the instance of any person whatever who shall pursue the same, certifying them if they fail therein, either by themselves or their deputes to be by them nominated for the said parish, the Lords of his Majesty's Privy Council, will appoint and nominate bailiffs in that part to judge and execute the laws in their place." Is that Act proceeded upon ? — That Act has been proceeded upon, and is now in force. To give, however, a fuller answer to the question row put, perhaps I may be allowed to refer to the statement of Mr. Bridges, a previous witness, respecting ihe opinion of the late Lord President Blair, given in 1794. The second class of means employed, to which I referred, were ecclesiastical. According to the laws of the Church of Scotland, the kirk-session, of which the minister is moderator or chairman, had charge of the morals of the parish, and 3 Rev. Duncan Macfnrlan. the laws of that church require the kirk-session to take notice of Sab- bath profanation, as one of the abuses especially belonging to this ecclesiastical court. They were accustomed, and are in some places slill accustomed, to cause individuals guilty of this abuse, to submit to church censure, and to be withheld from church privileges till such times as they should give evidence of repentance and reformation. Is that done by a regular citation? — It is. Before which citation the sentence of course could not be pro- nounced ? — Certainly not; the power is given to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland by Act of Parliament, and the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland instruct their presbyteries to see that those Acts be carried into effect, and the kirk-session, acting under their presbytery, see that it is done. This is entirely ecclesiastical ? — The penalty to which I now refer is altogether ecclesiastical, and the civil magistrate has nothing to do with it. You are aware that there is a very numerous body of Dissenters in Scotland ? — Yes. What sort of control may those Dissenters be under, in regard to the observance of the Sabbath-day ? — They have simply the power of withholding their church members from church privileges, and where- soever their ministers and kirk-sessions are faithful to their duty, they do this. You conceive the law supports them in so doing ? — The law has no influence upon them at all. Then it is a matter of mutual agreement? — Mutual agreement. What do you mean by withholding church privileges? — None are permitted in the Church of Scotland, or in any of the Presbyterian dissenting bodies, to partake of the Sacrament, or to obtain baptism for their children, till such times as they have obtained leave from the minister and kirk-session, after an examination into their moral and religious character. Then if for any disorderly conduct a person is excluded from such privilege, it is termed excommunication ? — It is termed the lesser ex- communication. And the rule regarding such matters is in point of practice sub- stantially the same, both vnth the Established Church and the various' denominations of Presbyterian Dissenters ? — In practice the rule is substantially the same, but in former times the Church of Scotland was accustomed to ask the aid of the civil magistrate to oblige indi- viduals to come to their session, and thus to give effect to their cita- tion. The civil magistrate in former times gave effect to the citation of a session belonging to the Established Church, v^hich he is not bound to do to any dissenting body. Does the civil magistrate so aid the Established Church in the pre- sent day ? — I cannot speak for the whole of Scotland, and in the parts with which I am acquainted I am not aware of any instance of his aid being called for. In point of fact, is this power of excommunication often exercised? — It differs in different parts of the country, and that just according to the faithfulness of the minister and his session. Speaking of the A 2 Hev. Duncan Macfatian. 4 clergymen with whom I am personally acquainted, and of my own experience, it frequently occurs. Is it considered an invidious exercise of power ? — It may be con- sidered invidious on the part of individuals not possessed of religious principle, but in a religious congregation it is held to be laudable. As far as your general experience goes, this exercise of the power of excommunication is supported by public opinion ? — Cerlainly. How far does your experience go in regard to the moral control exercised by the kirk-sessions of the Establishment and the Dissenters from the Establishment, in regard to the observance of the Lord's day ?— -I refer to the greater .part of parishes and congregations in Glasgow, Paisley, Greenock, and the surrounding districts. Is that moral control felt to a large extent in the districts to which you have now alluded ? — It is felt to a large extent amongst the church- going population ; but in the district to which I have referred, there is a very large class of the population who do not attend any place of worship, and consequently among them it cannot be felt; and the cir- cumstance of so many being of this class lessens its influence even on those who do attend church. The third class of means to which I have referred, comes under the title of family discipline. By family discipline I mean the exercise of religious worship in families, and the catechetical instruction of children and servants. This habit, which has been long prevalent in Scotland, has a powerful influence in preventing Sabbath profanation ; and, in connexion with this, well- disposed parents have been accustomed to act as true moral guardians both of their servants and children. Is family worship much observed in the districts to which you have formerly alluded ? — In the districts to which I have formerly alluded, the practice has gone much into disuse, but that is only during the period of perhaps 30 or 40 years. In speaking of an earlier period than that, I of course speak from information, but I speak from the information of clergymen and others, on whose testimony I can fully rely. Then, as a clergyman of the Church of Scotland, in your opinion would it not be highly desirable that this practice were revived, as bearing upon the observance of the Lord's day ? — Unquestionably. The fourth class of means to which I referred, may be called voluntary associations for promoting a due observance of the Lord's day ; this I understand has been introduced into London and other parts of late. It is an old Scottish practice, which I have heard often spoken of by those who lived a generation before me, and of which 1 have also heard much from the members of my own church, when I was a mi- nister in one of the suburbs of Glasgow. Elders of our churches were at the period to which I refer, accustomed to walk the streets in towns, two and two in turns, during the hours of Divine service, to take notice of children or disorderly persons strolling about, and to attempt by moral suasion to induce them to go to their houses or to go to church ; and if those means were inefficient, they were handed over to the civil magistrate. This practice continued till, from an increase of population, an increase of vice, and a growing want of support on the part of the magistrates, it was gradually given up ; and I am not 5 Rev. Duncan Macfarlan. aware at this moment whether any society of the description now- given exists in Scotland ; but I believe, from the accounts I have Iiad, that they did continue to exist till within a dozen years ago. I ought to have added, that this was not confined to the elders of the church, but that well-disposed individuals associated with them, took turn with them, and carried into effect those objects. You have stated that the elders were formerly active in regard to the observance of the Lord's day ; will you state what is the office of an elder in the Church of Scotland ? — In each parish of the Church of Scotland there is a minister, and there is associated with him a given number of laymen of high moral and religious character, who have each of them a district of the parish assigned, within which he watches over the morals of the people, and assists in other duties. Is the church very particular in the choice of those office-bearers ? — In some parishes due care may not be taken in the appointment of those officers ; but, generally speaking, they are men of the descrip- tion before given. Is it within your knowledge that there has been a less inclination on the part of the more respectable inhabitants of the parish to take upon them the office of elders than at former periods, and has the difficulty of obtaining elders of high respectability been thereby in- creased? — I am informed b} clergymen of more lengthened experience than I have, that the change now referred to has taken place. This is partly owing to the great extent of the population of our parishes which renders the duties of an elder laborious and irksome. Ought not the eldership to be increased in the ratio of the increase of the population of the parish? — It certainly ought, and in some places is ; were I required to answer ecclesiastically, perhaps I might enter into more minute reasons than those I have given, that would further account for this. Are you, as a minister of the Church of Scotland, strict and parti- cular in regard to the admission of those office-bearers into your ses- sion ? — Speaking for myself, I have acted strictly according to the principles laid down. Do you not think that it is of the greatest consequence to the well- being of the Church of Scotland that those office-bearers should be chosen from the class of society the most religious and the most moral ? — Certainly. You have mentioned some of the most efficient means employed to bring about the observance of the Sabbath in Scotland ; are there any particular circumstances connected with the right observance of that day, which you would wish to add ? — There are especially two ; one is the dependence of each of those classes of means upon ihe others. It was in consequence of legislative enactments not being fully carried into effect, that the associations to which I referred gradually ceased to operate ; the persons who went round to repress Sabbath abuse were often insulted, and being unsupported by the magistrates, gra- dually gave up acting as they did formerly, it having been voluntary and gratuitous. Were those associations extensively established throughout Scot- land ? — They were extensive throughout populous parts of the country. Hev. Duncan Macfarlan. 6 In towns rather than in country parishes ? — In towns chiefly or only. In h'ke manner there is a very close connexion between the disciph'ne of the church and the execution of those enactments; for while on the one hand neglect on the part of the church rendered the laws inefficient, neglect of the laws rendered the duties of the church irksome, and in many places they ceased to be put in execution. Wiih reference to the point to which you have just adverted, the neglect of the laws, do you ascribe that more to a deterioration of moral and religious feeling, than to an opinion that the laws themselves were not strong enough to meet the growing evil ? — To both. The other special circumstance to which I referred is, that throughout the whole period spoken of, both legal enactments, church dis(:ipline, and the various other means employed, proceeded on the principle of the whole of the day being held sacred to the Almighty : it forms no part of the law of Scotland, and no part of the ecclesiastical enactment of the Church of Scotland, to contemplate the Lord's day as being con- fined to the hours of Divine service j all the enactments proceed on the principle of the entire Sabbath of twenty-four hours being held as a fieason of rest. To Ihis I ascribe much, because if we confine it to any given period, then that period being determined by human au- thority, is limited by, individuals at their own pleasure. 1 ascribe much to it from our experience of a single enactment proceeding on a different principle. By an Act in 1828, the description of our Sab- bath is given as if confined to the hours of Divine service, and it has done great mischief. What Act is that to which you refer ? — The Act of 1828, for regu- lating licences in Scotland. Is there in this Act a direct sanction for so limiting the Sabbath, or is it only so inferred ? — It is only by inference. The Act itself is the 9 Geo. 4, c. AS, which I have now in my hand, and proceeds as fol- lows in schedule B. from the certificate : "And do not keep open house, or permit or suffer any drinking or tippling in any part of the pre- mises thereunto belonging, during the hours of Divine Service on Sun- days, or other days set aside for public worship by lawful authority." Do you conceive that this Act was called for, or were the old Scottish Acts sufficient for the observance of the day? — Tiiere was no Scottish Act of which I am aware, for the regulation of licences, pre- vious to the Act of 1828. Were there no licences granted in that country previous to 1828 ? —The granting of certificates for licence was left to the judgment of the local magistrate. In all the Scottish statutes there is a special reserve for the Lord's day, but there is no special statute, of which I know any thing, regulating licences. The local magistrates of given districts were allowed to lay down regulations for the licensing system within the district, and hence I have now in my hand a copy of regu- lations agreed to by the justices of the peace in the county of Ren- frew, and which was acted upon by the magistrates of that county and of the county of Dumbarton. Then the point of difference between the old Scottish Acts and the more recent one for regulating public houses, was this, that by the former the whole Sabbath was regarded as a day of sacred rest. 7 Rev. Duncan Mac/arlan. whereas tlie n)odern one merely protects what nre called the churcli hours? — Quite so. I now hoici in my hand a letter from Mr. Home Drummond, wlio moved this Act in tlie House of Commons, and who expUiins iiis impression of the introduction of this novelty. I had liis liberty to pubhsh it, and therefore I may now perhaps take the hberty to read it. " Unfortunately all the papers I have relating to this subject are in Edinburgh, but to the best of my recollection the form of the certificate originally contained a greater restriction as to counties than it now does; it was altered in its progress through the House of Commons, in order probably to meet the popular notions of the times and to be more conformable to the English practice." Is there not at tin's moment in Scothmd ratiier a dread on the part of the religious people, that if the Legislature were to make any alter- ation in the laws for the Sabbath-day, they miglit rather assimilate tliem to those of England, whereas the people of Scotland are anxious tliat the principles of the old laws should be strictly adhered to ? — It is the opinion of the local magistrates whom I have consulted in the counties of Lanark, Renfrew, and Dumbarton, that it m'ght be a diffi- cult thing to obtain full effect to the old Scottish Acts, provided a case were carried by appeal to the Court of Session, there being a feel- ing in the Court of Session to render the Scottish Acts, as far as cir- cumstances admit, conformable to the English. Does that arise out of what Mr. Drummond calls the spirit of the times? — I have not the means of knowing. You do not consider that the practice of keeping open public-houses on the Sabbath is sanctioned by the Act itself to which you have re- ferred? — Certainly not. The fact of its being lawful to keep open public-houses at any time, excepting the hours of Divine worship, is merely inferred from the certificate to which you have alluded? — Entirely so 3 and if the Committee will permit me to read another short extract from Mr. Home Drummond's own letter, they will see this to be his opinion. " All that the last Act does, is to declare that it shall be a breach of the certi- ficate to permit tippling on Sundays during Divine service, &c. as therein set forth. It does not, in my opinion, affect any other legal consequences of Sabbath-breaking, or make it lawful to do any thing on Sunday which was previously unlawful, un- less in so far as such illegality may have depended upon the t.vo repealed Acts of Geo. 3." In these Acts there was nothing on the subject. Has it been a consequence of this Act of 1828^ that the public- houses have been less well regulated than they were previous to the passing of it ? — I am assured by the local magistracy in the three counties to which I have referred, that persons committing abuses in public-houses frequently plead this very Act as a ground of excuse in open court ; I mean, in committing abuses at other hours than the hours of Divine service, the}' plead a right from this Act. Then you consider that it has had a prejudicial effect upon the morals of the community of Scotland? — I conceive that it has had a prejudicial effect in the regulating of public-houses; and I have referred to this for the purpose of showing what I before mentioned, the great importance of all our legislative enactments, and all our other means, proceeding on the principle of the entire Sabbath being sacred to God. Rev. Duncan Macfarlan. 8 Do you think that a public-house keeper in Scotland, having his public-house open on the Sabbath-day during the hours which are not set apart for Divine worship, would forfeit his certificate ? — In some places he would, but 1, believe not generally. To show, however, that prosecutions still proceed upon the old Scottish Acts, I may be per- mitted to refer to a record of certain convictions established in the Police-court of Glasgow. I read from a statistical work lately pub- lished by Dr. Cleland, of Glasgow ; " Taking the record of a single month, I find among the items twenty-two cases for keeping public- houses open during Divine service, but I find also nine cases for driving cattle through the streets on Sunday 5 and I find five cases for barbers shaving in their shops on Sunday." This is for the year 1830 ; and I am assured by the assessors of the city that their prosecutions proceed upon the old Scottish Acts up to this day. Did those twenty-two prosecutions of the publicans proceed upon the new Act or upon the old Scottish Acts? — Upon the old Acts, as I am informed. In fact, the keeping open the public-houses on the Sabbath-day at other hours than those set apart for Divine worship would not set aside the certificate ? — It would not ; it could not by that Act. Although it might bring tiie party under the penalty of the Act of Parliament? — It might still bring the party under the penalty of the old Acts. Are you not of opinion that it is a most unhappy circumstance that the certificate referred to in the 9 Geo. 4, c. 58, is contrary to the letter and the spirit of the former Acts, in regard to the observance of the Lord's day ? — It is complained of by all the magistrates with whom I have communicated upon the subject. Did they ever express themselves as desirous that the Legislature should, at a fitting opportunity, put the law to rights in regard to this matter 1 — They have said so in the strongest terms. Are you acquainted with the practical operation of the Scottish Acts, in reference to procuring the decorous observance of the Lord's day'? — I am partially acquainted with them. Are complaints brought before the magistrates, which they can de- cide by summary jurisdiction ? — They have it in their power. Are those complaints frequent? — It is only in a few places that I am able to speak to that point ; in Glasgow complaints are frequently made, taken up and remedied ; but in some of the places which I know, there is very little done to it ; the Scottish Acts have ceased in a great measure to be operative, for the following reason, the change in the value of money. Will you explain the difference of the pound Scots, and the pound English ? — The Scots money is only one-twelfth in value, when com- pared with the English money; for example, in the Act 1579 the smallest fine was IO5., but that in our money is only lOrf. The highest sum that I observe, in 1661, was 20/., but that is only 1/. 13s. 4rf., so that those penalties are not sufficient to give effect to the laws. Then they are not practically found efficient, from want of adequate penalties ? — From want of adequate penalties. In what manner then do the magistrates act in the furtherance of 9 Rev. Duncan Macfnrlan. the professed object they have in view ? — The magistrates have a power of modifying the penalty under the general pohce power which they have as magistrates. But if the penalties are insufficient, how does the Act operate in preventing tlie profanation of the Lord's day ? — The penalties are not so specially connected with a particular description of offence as to bind a magistrate to the small penalty, and besides, he has police enactments to enable him to increase the penalty. Then having an option, he is enabled to inflict so large a penalty as practically to attain the object in view ? — Not fully to attain the object, but to attain it in some measure. Is no difficulty found in the practical operation of those Acts relat- ing to the observance of the Lord's day, in reference to the procuring of evidence? — That difficulty is often found; several of the fiscals have assured me that when they themselves went out and detected cases of abuse, they could not get the people to give evidence. Therefore, if the moral feeling of the community supported the law more fully, the law would be found much more effective ? — It would be found more effective, yet still very defective. How do you account for the circumstance that there should be a greater difficulty in procuring evidence in regard to those offences than in regard to other offences against the law? — The offences to which I now refer must either be ascertained by police-officers, or they must be ascertained by neighbours. Our police establishments in Scotland, it is well known, are not so extensive as to watch over the abuses of the inhabitants in many of those towns, and people living close together will not give evidence the one against the other, as they would do in a matter affecting their property. Are you aware, of your own experience, that there are many prose- cutions for breaches of the Sabbath in the districts to which you have formerly alluded? — I must chiefly refer to Glasgow for any consider- able number. And in Glasgow do the prosecutions to which you allude come be- fore the justices of the peace, or the magistrates of the city ? — They take place within the royalty, and therefore come before the magis- trates. Is this under the municipal law, or under the police law ? — They come under both : if houses are disorderly, then they come under the police law ; but if it is for the opening of shops during hours in which they ought to be shut, they come under the municipal law. Are magistrates generally found disposed to enforce the penalties? — In some places they are, in other places they are very reluctant. On the whole, you consider that breaches of the Sabbath-day are augmenting instead of diminishing in Scotland ? — They are certainly augmenting in the more populous and manufacturing districts of Scot- land. Then it would appear, from what you have last said, that the state of the Sabbath observance in Scotland is not now such as you describe it to have been formerly? — There has been a general deterioration in Sabbath observance throughout the populous and manufacturing dis- tricts of Scotland, to such an extent as to cause alarm on the part of Rev. Dutican Macfarlan. 10 the well-di^osed, and to create much uneasiness on the part of faithful magistrates. Can you enumerate some of the leading abuses? — I shall be able to do so from a source of -information that will extend it much beyond my own observation. The subject of Sabbath abuse was taken up by a commission of ihe General .Assembly of the Church of Scotland last spring ; orders were sent to all the presbyteries throughout the bounds of Scotland to return an account of Sabbath abuses, and the means of having them removed. As a member of committee of the General Assembly on the subject, I had access to those documents, and from some of them I have extracted the following classes of abuse : " Smelting of iron is now carried on in some parts of Scotland on the Lord's day ; certain chemical works carry on their operationson the Lord's day ; salmon- fishing in some parts of the east coast of Scotland is carried on; cattle driving in the great lines between the markets is carried on ; it is a common and prevalent abuse about watering places, and throughout various parts of the Highlands of Scotland, to drive carts and various kinds of carriages, jaunting about from place to place, so thaf^the inhabitants of the country, in the neighbourhood of such places, have very much ceased to understand what a Scottish Sabbath is." In one place we were informed, by a return of the Presbytery, that steam-boat masters pay their men on the Lord's-day, at a common pay-table ; they employed Sunday also in cleaning their machinery, scrubbing their decks and preparing their vessels for Monday's sailing; but there are especially two classes of abuse that have occupied our attention, the one is in connexion with public-hou-ses, and the other is in connexion with steam-boat navigation. Before leaving the first head, is it necessary in iron-works to carry on part of their operations on Sunday ? — 1 have not the means of knowing. Nor in chemical works ? — I have not the means of knowing. In the salmon fishery is it necessary ? — I have not the means of knowing. Then all the heads of objection which you have mentioned, such as iron works, chemical works, salmon fishing, and cattle driving, strictly speaking, b}'^ the old laws are all prohibited ?— They are all prohibited, and in the returns which we have received, they are stated as abuses that have lately come into practice, some within the last 30 years, others within a few years. But I mentioned public-houses and steam- boats especially J the number of public-houses has very much increased in the districts to which I have especially referred, so much so, that taking into calculation the whole of the lower ward of the county of Lanark, including the city of Glasgow, the whole of the county of Renfrew, and the county of Dumbarton, containing a population of about 400,000, the number of public-houses stand to the families in the following proportion ; there is one public-house for about every twenty and a half families throughout that district. But in respect of the abuses connected with these, I beg leave to read a short extract from a work I myself drew up, illustrative of this : " Having been favoured with the assistance of one of the officers of the police esta- blishment in the borough of Paisley, we counted off all the cases which occurred on Sabbath during the first six months of the year 1831, and also all the cases which occurred during the rest of the week, for the same period, and found them to be 1 1 Rev. Duncan Mac/a r/an. in all 1,138 cases, of wliich 794 occurred on tlie other days of the week, and :H{ on the Lord's day ; this brought out a proportion of one on Sabbath for somewhat less than two and a third during the whole of the other six days, or more than two and a half on Sabbath for every case occurring on each of the other days. But even this does not shew the worst of it ; there is a monthly list usually drawn up from the daily record, in which the cases are classified according to the nature of the crime charged. Now there are certain classes of charges brought up which are peculiar to the oll)er days of the week ; such, for example, as passing bad money, exposing unwholesome meal to sale, &c. The superintendaiit having mentioned' the cases which were thus peculiar to the other days, we had them summed up, and deducted from the aggregate for week-days, and then, on comparing the num- ber of cases common to both, as they occurred on Sabbath or during" the week, they stood to each other in the following propoi tion : the aggregate of cases oc- curring during the week are to those occurring on Sabbath alone scarcely one and a half, and thus the number of cases occurring on the Lord's-day were to the avera<^e of any other day more than as four to one." In parts of Scotland where the Sabbath is well observed, no market is carried on on that day; is tiiere? — No marketing is carried on on Sabbath, neither is there usually any public market carried on on the Saturday or Monday, where the Sabbath is well observed. Such marketing as is done at shops, by poor families supplying themselves there, is carried on on Saturday evening ? — Such marketin<» is carried on till perhaps 10 o'clock on Saturday night. Even in so dense a population as Paisley and Glasgow no marketing is carried on upon the Lord's day ? — I am not aware of any marketing being carried on but the sale of liquors in public-houses; certainly there is no open marketing. Are the work-people paid at so early an hour on Saturday evening as to enable them to make their marketing in reasonable time on the Saturday ? — I believe they generally are. You think it would be considered a great hardship on (he people were any masters to withliold their wages from the poor workmen till so late an hour as to prevent their marketing for their family on Satur- day evening ? — So much so, that I believe it is general throughout the district of country to which I have alluded, to quit work fully earlier on Saturday than on another day. In a variety of i mployments con- nected with manufacturing, the workmen generally quit work on Saturday at four o'clock, receive their wages then, and have the even- ing to market and to be with their families. Have you ever heard it considered as a hardship by the poor classes in Scotland being prohibited to market on the Sunday ? — I have never heard any complaint of the kind. Such a thought never enters into their mind ? — I have never heard it spoken of in any respect. Are the persons employed in the large factories in Paisley and Glas- gow paid as early as seven o'clock on Saturday ? — I am not aware of the prechse hour at which they are paid, but they have usually earlier done their work on Saturday' than on other days. And this is with a view to enable their families to make their market- ing on the Saturday evening, so as to prevent them from encroaching on the observance of the Loi'd's day ? — -I am not aware of the reason ; but this is the practice from my earliest recollection, that the workmen should be qm't of their work at an earlier hour on Saturday than on Rev. D. Macfarlan. 12 any other day. I have mentioned also steam navigation as a special source of Sabbath abuse : the first steam-boat was launched on the Clyde in 1812, and they have gradually increased till the\ have now come up to a number somewhere between 50 and 60 ; there were 51 in 1831 ; some of these boats, I think five in number, sail to Liver- pool ; a certain number of them are in the practice of leaving Liverpool, and also Glasgow, on Saturday, and being at sea on the Lord's day. This is a novelty in Scotland. In several of those boats, however, it is due to mention that two of the principal proprietors do, at their own individual expense, maintain chaplains on board to perform Divine service at sea. There are boats that go also to Dublin and to Belfast, but those do not regularly sail on Sunday, but they often arrive on Sunday. There are many steam-boats on the Clyde that run from Glasgow to Greenock, and the various other parts on the Frith; do any of them ply on Sunday? — There are three classes of boats which ply on Sunday in the river; the first are boats carrying goods, but impelled by steam; they are generally loaded on Saturday evening, and take the morning tide to or from Greenock on the Lord's-day. Are they confined to the Sunday morning tide? — They are not con fined to it, but generally take it. They are unloaded on Monday, but they take generally the first tide, which may extend, however, so late as to 12, or even 1 o'clock of the day. The next class are draggers, steam vessels that drag sailing vessels ; they are accustomed to drag those vessels both up and down on the Lord's-day; one of those vessels may be found dragging five, six or seven sailing vessels, and all this goes on on the Lord's-day. Another way in which this class is employed is to. drag vessels for sailing out of the harbour at Greenock ; they are employed in dragging them to sea, and the consequence of that is the employment of porters and seamen, and a variety of that class of men, which is exceedingly offensive to the inhabitants of those places. The third class is a greater novelty in Scotland than any of the preceding. During the sumiTier of 1831, a steam vessel, called the Bangor Castle, sailed usually or regularly between Glasgow and Gourock on the Lord's-day, carrying passengers between those places. This was considered quite a novelty? — It was considered quite a novelty, and so much did it shock the feelings of the inhabitants of all the parts where she touched, and the places along which she passed, that I had personally letters from highly respectable individuals in Gourock, in Greenock, in parts of my own parish through which the river passes, and in Glasgow, begging that the matter might be laid before our church courts. And has the plying of this vessel been continued? — The vessel con- tinued throughout summer ; she does not now ply. In point of fact, is there any steam vessel, for the purpose of pleasure parties, now plying on the Clyde on Sunday? — I am not aware that any vessel is plying regularly, but three vessels attempted before I left home, and the masters were summoned before the court of the magis- trate charged with the river trust in Glasgow, but the offence was not found sufficiently flagrant to cause any penalty. Is it not to be feared that those vessels having escaped punishment, 13 Rev. D. Macfarlan. others may be induced to ply on Sunday, for the purpose of carrying parties of pleasure? — It is the feeling of the well-disposed in the differ- ent towns along the banks of the Clyde, and I have access to know also in Belfast, in Dublin, and in Liverpool, that as there are no laws existing to prevent steam navigation on the Lord's-day, it is most likely to become common. Then the old Scottish Acts of which you have spoken, cannot be made to apply to the new invention of steam vessels? — In the old Scottish Acts there is no description that would apply to a steam vessel, and I have the means of knowing that in Dublin, for example, some well-disposed gentlemen submit to loss in carrying on steam navigation on principles not to intrude upon the Sabbath. That is to say, they only let their vessels ply in six days of the week? — They only let their vessels ply six days in the week, and they keep up more vessels to meet this arrangement than would otherwise be necessary; there are two vessels running between Dublin and Glasgow, and there is not full business for them. In Belfast I have access to know that some gentlemen have taken large shares of some of the boats, in order to exercise a moral influence in the management of those boats; and a few years ago, perhaps two years, succeeded in putting down the whole of the boats running from Belfast on that day, and so far as I know, there are still no boats running from Belfast on that day. Similar efforts have been made in other places, but the whole of this Sabbath protection being dependent upon the personal exertion of those individuals, there is a general fear lest others should take advantage of it, and break down what they are doing at expense and risk. Is it not the fact that such inhabitants of Glasgow as wish to be from home on Sunday, either for health or amusement, invariably go on Saturday afternoon? — It is the common practice; the steam-boats leave Bromielaw, that is the port of Glasgow, so late as six o'clock in the evening, carrying gentlemen of business to their families at the watering places ; and then again they leave those watering places at an early hour, some of them as early as three and others six on the Mon- day morning. With reference to that boat that sailed on the Lord's-day last sum- mer, did it stop on account of fearing any opposition? — It stopped at the end of the summer season ; and the notice that was taken of it so influenced public opinion as probably to prevent its renewal. There is no steam packet for any distant part leaves Glasgow on the Lord's-day, unless she has been detained by some special cause or accident. Do any public coaches in Scotland, except the mail-coach, run on the Sunday? — I am not aware of any coach running in Scotland, with the exception of the mail. The old law is sufficiently precise to prevent their running on that day? — There was a case occurred a number of years ago, which I am not prepared to report, in which the power of coach proprietors to run their coaches on the Lord's-day was tried: the coach proprietors lost the plea, and it has not since been tried; but it is probably a dozen years ago, though I am not certain of the date. Is there any travelling in Scotland for merchandize, as by waggons. Rev. D. Macfarian. 14 canals or any other conveyance on the Sunday? — I am not aware of any. There has never been found any difficulty under the old laws to enforce a strict observance of the Sabbath-day in such matters ? — I am not aware of them being at all tried, it not having occurred. The fear of the penalties has some effect? — Yes. To what extent is private travelling by private conveyances? — It goes on to some extent, but it is not general ; there are cases, but it is not general ; it is rare. Do parties of pleasure in small boats on the rivers and in vehicles, in the neighbourhood of large towns, prevail extensively? — About watering-places in various parts of the Highlands where strangers assemble; and near towns it is so. Is that an increasing evil ? — The employment of vehicles and also of pleasure boats is common, and an increasing and much-complained of evil. The witness has described the manner in which the Sabbath was formerly observed in Scotland, and the relaxation which has since taken place ; can he assign any other reasons for this change? — The following may be stated as some of the principal reasons : The introduction of many strangers into the west of Scotland from parts of the country where the Sabbath has been long ill observed ; I refer more especially to the great number of people from Ireland settled amongst us, and engaged in the manufacturing business ; 1 refer also to a considerable number, though less, from England, it being a well-known fact that probably 20 years ago Scotchmen would not enter into those employ- ments which detained them at work on the Lord's-day, and men were brought from England to carry on these works; but now Scotchmen have learned to follow in their steps, and are themselves engaged in these works: I refer more particularly to glass and chrystal works and potteries. The following may be assigned as another reason; namely, the long hours during which workers at the manufactories are detained at work. Many of the people employed in cotton-spinning and steam- loom factories 1 know to have been employed during 12 hours of the day, not including the hours allowed for meals, being closely confined during the whole week in ill-aired apartments ; there is consequently a strong desire to go forth to the fields, and to spend the Lord's-day in an improper manner. Another reason is the increase of luxury among the lower orders during the past period of prosperity. These habits are still continued; and as they want the means of indulging in them, they are now reduced to the greatest ])Overty and distress; so that the most common excuse we meet with on the part ot these individuals, when asked why they do not attend public ordinances is, that they have no change of dress. It was formerly the practice, and is still the practice, as far as I am aware, except in the manufacturing districts, that the very poorest of my countrymen have a change of dress, one for week-days and another for the Sabbath; but the class of people to whom I have re- ferred, have usually only one suit of clothes; and as the more regular part of the community go to church dressed, they will not appear among them. Hence they neglect Divine ordinances, and fall into other gross abuses. -Another reason may be assigned in connexion vvith these. 15 Rtv. D. Macfurlan. namely, the want of church accommodation, but still more the want of parochial superintendence; the want of church accommodation is well known, and I shall not be more particular upon it. When you speak of want of accommodation, do you mean want of accommodation in the Established Church, or in all the various places of worship, of whatever denomination taken together? — I mean want of church accommodation, taking into view all that is provided by the dif- ferent religious bodies. As a proof of this, I beg leave to state the fol- lowing facts respecting tlie city of Glasgow, my information being ob- tained from authentic documents: the population of Glasgow and suburbs was in 17S0, 42,832; and the church accommodation afforded by all the different denominations of Christians was sufficient for 22,881, or in the proportion of one sitting to about 1 "o persons; in 1821 the population was 147,043, with accommodation for only 57,1 J 5, or one sitting to about 2 ioo persons; and in 1831 the population was found to be 202,426, with accommodation for only 73,425, or in the propor- tion of one sitting to 2 /oo- From these statements it will be seen that m the short period of 50 years, church accommodation has in the large and wealthy city of Glasgow passed from one sitting to every 1 f^ per- sons to 2 10^0) or very nearly as three is to two ; so that every 2,000 of the population of tliat city in 1780 had nearly as much church accom- modation as 3,000 have at the present time. This includes the whole church accommodation furnished both within the Establishment and in the various dissenting bodies? — It does. Has not much been done lately to enlarge the accommodation in churches and chapels in Glasgow? — More has been done of late than formerly, but not at all to keep pace with the population; I refer more especially, however, to the want of parochial superintendance. Has there been any grant by Commissioners for building Churches? -^Not in the low country of Scotland; only in the Highlands. There is not, so far as I know, a single case of public funds being applied to the building of churches in these districts; the Government churches are in the Highlands. Can you say, from personal knowledge, what has been done in the Highlands? — I cannot; I shall, however, with your permission, select two parishes in the low country, and state the population of them, which will show that the parochial superintendence is altogether nominal in such parishes. The population of the Abbey parish of Paisley is 20,000, and that of the Barony parish of Glasgow is 77,385. By the returns of 1831? — By the returns of 1831. In the Abbey parish of Paisley there are two incumbents; in the Barony parish of Glasgow there is only one. The latter has an assistant, but it is by pri- vate arrangement, and in consequence of old age. It is well known to be the duty of a parish minister in Scotland to take a pastoral care, not merely of those \Nho may belong to his congregation, but of all who are inhabitants of his parish. Dissenters, when they object to his interfer- ence with them (1 mean his visiting their families, and performing pas- toral duties), are excepted ; but there is a great body of people in these districts who belong to no church; these the parish minister regards as objects of his pastoral care, and hence he employs the various moral means he is possessed of to bring them under the power of the truth. In Rev. D. Macfarlan. 16 a parish perhaps consisting of from 2,000 to 3,000, he has it in his power to take charge of even those who do not belong to his congrega- tion ; but from my experience I am disposed to think that beyond that number it is quite impracticable. Therefore, if a minister has charge of a parish of nearly 8,000, or even of 15,000 or 12,000, which is quite a common thing in large towns, it is morally impossible for him to take any efficient parochial superintendence of the whole. The reason why I specially point to this is, that our Sabbath profanation, and our dis- orderly conduct in towns, are to be found, not among the church-going class of the population, but among those who are under no pastoral care, either of the Dissenters or of the Church. My further reason is, that although dissenting chapels have been multiplied in these places, and we rejoice that it is the case, they do not take any pastoral care of any be- yond their own congregations; and therefore the vast multitudes who are neither Dissenters, nor in the proper sense of the word, belonging to the Established Church, are left altogether without any moral influence being brought to bear on them. Have you any means of informing the Committee as to the number of dissenting ministers, of all denominations, residing within the parishes to which you refer? — The number of small meetings, some of which have no stated pastors, puts it out of my power to answer this question with precision ; but the following will show the relative proportion of Dis- senters in the city of Glasgow and suburbs, as certified by Dr. Cleland, the well-known statistical writer of that city : " Establishment, 1 04, 1 62 ; Dissenters, 70,380; Episcopalians, 8,551 ; Roman-catholics, 19,383: total 202,426." This statement applies to that city in 1 831. Another reason, auxiliary to this is, that in the large towns the price of sittings in the churches is very high; churches have been of late built, both by magistrates and various dissenting bodies, on the principle of their ex- pecting a return. As a speculation? — As a speculation. This has led them to fit up churches better calculated for the wealthy than for the poor, inasmuch as the seats may be rented higher. As a proof of this, in one of the churches in Glasgow, the price of a sitting in the common area is 15*. a year for a sitting of 18 inches. Now a common tradesman could not pay that; if he paid it for himself, he must leave his wife and his whole family at home. I know that this church is more expensive than most of the others, and I would state as the probable average 8s. or 9*. for one sitting of the same extent. Are there in those churches no gratuitous seats for the poor ? — In some churches there are a few, in other churches there are none. Are there more without them than with them? — 1 am not prepared to answer that with precision. I know it to be true, that many trades- men who are disposed to have their families with them in church, are able only to take sittings for perhaps the parents, and they take turn with their children, the consequence of which is that the greatest part of the family must be left at home, exposed to all the various temptations pecu- liar to a large city, ai\d hence they are trained to habits of Sabbath neglect, and get into habits of Sabbath profanation, and often into cri- minal courses. Do your observations regarding the high price of sittings apply to 17 lice. b. Marjadan. to churches in and out of ilie Establislnnent built on speculation ^ — It applies in a great measure cfpially to both. In parishes out of our towns it would not at all apply to our Established Church, inasmuch as scats when rented are very low, and in tnany cases they are enjoyed gratuitously. In such parts of the country it would apply only in a li- mited extent to Dissenters, and not at all to the Established Church. In large towns and cities it applies to botii. Is any seat-rent paid in the old Established Church in Glasgow? — Seat-rents I know to be paid in all the Established Churches in Glas- gow. It is not usual in country parishes to pay any seat-rent whatever? — In the more remote parts of the country it is not usual to pay seat-rents in Established Churches, but in some of the more populous parts it is. Have applications been made to supply church-room for the growing poj)ulation ? — In the Barony parisli of Glasgow, it is believed there are about 2,000/. of vacant tiends; the Crown are the titulars or impropria- tors. A strong desire exists among many of the heritors or proprietors of that parish to have new churches erected ; and I know, from personal information, that an ofifer was made by a number of gentlemen to build a church at their own expense, and to grant as much of the seat-room as would cover the minister's stipend or salary, provided that so much of the vacant tiends could be obtained as would render it a legal endow- ment; but their wish could not be obtained. How are such tiends now appropriated by the Crown? — The Crown is accustomed to receive a certain sum of money from the heritors or proprietors for a renewal of lease : which money t believe to be laid out in public improvements in that district of the country. Improvements unconnected with the Church? — Altogether uncon- nected with any ecclesiastical purpose. Who regulates the laying out of that money in the district? — I am not possessed of sufficient personal information perhaps to answer that question; I believe it to be through the magistrates that it is done, but not by their direction. Is there any other difficulty? — There is another difficulty connected with the patronage of the parish. Every new erection in a parish must be under the patronage of the person possessing the patronage of the old parish, which in this instance belongs to the Crown. Many of the inhabitants of the parish are disposed to lay out money in a new erec- tion or erections, provided that the Crown were to give to them the free election of their ministers, and that other means could be obtained for rendering an endowment legal. No new parish can be erected, unless a legal endowment of 150/. per annum be secured, in property or some corporation fund. Would not a modification in the law of patronage, by procuring the appointment of popular and efficient ministers, revive very much a spirit of vital religion in Scotland? — Giving it merely as my own personal opinion, I would say that if we had the full benefit of what is called in Scotland " The Call," a change in the law of patronage would be unne- cessary. What is a Call? — A Call is this. From the earliest period of the constitution of the Church of Scotland, two things were necessary to th? T. licv.D. Macfarhm. 18 settlement of a minister, tlie one his election or 'presentation by a pa- tron, the other the consent of tlie ])eople to that election or presentation. The patron, whether a private individual or a body of men, named the person who was to be appointed ; he was then sent to the parish ; he had to preach before them three several Sundays; he was to allow the people an opportunity of conversing with him ; they were to take means of inquiring respecting his character and conduct, and general manners. The Presbytery after this appointed a day when the inhabitants of the parish in general were cited to meet together; and, after Divine wor- ship, the question was distinctly put to them, whether they were now prepared to call or invite this man to come and labour among them, and in token of their consent they were required to sign his " Call." If they had any relevant objection, they were permitted to lay it before the Presbytery. This objection had not merely a reference to moral conduct, but had a reference to the fitness of the individual for that ))articular charge ; so that if in their opinion his labours among them were not likely to be for edification, they were allowed, on these grounds alone, to come forward with their objections. The Presbytery had the i'ull power of saying whether these objections were relevant or not ; whe- ther they proceeded from merely frivolous causes, or whether they proceeded upon the conscientious desire of having a faithful and able minister among them. In the event of the Presbytery finding that the objection was relevant, they wrote to the patron, informing him that the presentation could not be sustained. He had it in his power to appeal to the superior ecclesiastical courts, but he had it not in his power to appeal to any civil court; and when it was found in the ecclesiastical courts that the objection was relevant, the matter ended, and he was bound to present another individual, who was to be tried in like man- ner. "^I'his continued to be the practice down to some time after the Revolution of 1688. It was a subject of general discussion about the commencement of the secession of the first Presbyterian body of Dis- senters in Scotland after the Revolution. About the year 1730, a dis- cussion was raised and carried on to a great extent, not about the Call, but about the right of the people to elect their own minister, and thus to take the place of the patron. This was the chief cause of the seces- sion ; and from that period the right of the people to what is commonly called the Call, ox consent of the whole church members, went into disuse, or merged into discussions on patronage; so that at present it is held by many in the Church of Scotland that a Call is merely nominal. The subject, however, was under discussion during the last Assembly, and has awakened a general interest throughout the whole of Scotland, with a view to restore to the people the right which has been held theirs throughout all ages of the Church. Have not ministers been sometimes forced upon the congregations by military aid? — Certainly not within my personal observation; but 1 believe at the distance of perhaps 40 or 50 years. Has not the practice of forcing unpopular ministers on parishes alie- nated many persons from the Establishment? — It lias been the chief cause of separation from the Established Church of Scotland; it is the only cause of Presbyterian Dissent; beyond nliich, dissvntin Scotland is very trifling. 19 JiiV. D. Macfurlan. in j)oiiit of fact, there is no material difference in doctrine between any of tlie various denominations of Presbyterian Dissenters in Scot- land ? — All tlic Presbyterian Dissenters acknowledge the same stand- ards, and hold coiise(iuentIy the same faith ; and I may add, ih;it no- thing would so unite them together as the removal of those causes which sej)arated them. Then you are of opinion that any measure which insured the appoint- ment of proper ministers, would tend to revive the spirit of religion, and of course to diminish the habit of Sabbath-breaking? — Unquestionably. But would not the restoration of the Call be liable to create divisions among the congregations? — That is the common objection raised against it ; and the only way in which it is j)rovided against is, by giving tlie Presbytery the entire power of judging whether or not the objection be relevant ; the relevancy is not as to its being formal or informal, but whether in their judgment the objection raised by the people is from conscientious motives, and whether it ought to be attended to or not. Was there any ultimate resource, suppose the Presbytery and people did not agree; suppose, after repeated proposals of ministers, they did not, agree, was there any power in the Crown or elsewhere to appoint a iriinister absolutely ? — There is an aj)peal from the Presbytery to the superior court of the Synod ; there is an appeal from the Synod to the General Assembly of the whole Church, where the case must stop, and the cause must be determined finally. Must the General Assembly appoint those ministers who have been before judged of by the Presbytery, or have they the power of setting him aside and appointing a new one altogether? — The General Assemb- ly would instruct the Presbytery to proceed with the settlement if they disapproved of the conduct of the Presbytery, or they would reject liim if they approved of it. But in the event of the clergyman being rejected, another must be presented by the patron? — Yes, and proceed through the same ordeal. Upon what footing does the appointment of ministers rest in the secession churches in Scotland? — In the secession and other Presby- terian bodies in Scotland, the minister is understood to be elected by the members of the congregation; in many cases by those who hold church seats. fn point of fact, has this system occasioned much distraction or con- fusion? — I am not prepared to answer that question exactly; I should say but to a limited extent; I am not aware that it has to any consi- derable extent caused distraction or disagreement. Is it not generally understood that the Presbyterian doctrines arc preached with great purity in the secession churches, and that the Pres- byterian discipline is very strictly enforced? — I am not aware of any particular objection to that, but I am not prepared to answer it posi- tively, not belonging to that denomination. From your experience as a minister of the Church of Scotland, do you think that if the practice of the Call should be revived, and placed as before under the salutary control of the Presbytery, acting as a court of conscience, less difficulty and obstruction might be expected in the settlement of ministers than what may occur in the secession churches, b2 Rev. D. Macfarlan. 20 where, as I understand, the clergymen are elected by the majority of the congregation? — I am decidedly of that opinion. Are you connected with the Anti-Patronage Society in Edinburgh? — I have no connexion with it whatever. Can you assign any other reason for the falling-ofF of the observance of the Lord's-day in Scotland? — Therfe are several other reasons to which I referred the last day I was examined, and to which I beg leave again very shortly to refer; one of these is the general inefficiency of our Scottish statutes in respect of the observance of the Lord's-day; the change which has taken place in the value of money renders the penal- ties in most cases quite inefficient; such money being only one-twelfth in value of English money of the same denomination, the penalties for gross abuses are now very much without effect. In connexion with this, it is generally understood to be a growing tendency, in some of the higher courts of law, to render as much as possible the practice of our laws on that subject conformable to the English. In many of the Eng- lish statutes the period during which various forms of work are pro- hibited, are the hours of Divine service. In all the Scottish statutes it is the whole Sabbath, meaning 24 hours. The consequence of this growing opinion is, that magistrates in some of our cities, and justices of the peace in various parts of the country, who would otherwise give effect to the law, are most uneasy lest any of the decisions should be carried by appeal to the Court of Session, and that their judgment should thus be reversed. This has especially taken place in respect of the regulation of public-houses. I refer to the Act of 1 828, for regu- lating licences, in which there is a farther security for the observance of a part of the Lord's-day, rendering it a breach of licence to keep houses open during any part of Divine service; but the circumstance of its be- ing confined to the hours of Divine service has induced many to believe that they are tolerated to keep their houses open during all hours but the hours of Divine service; and I have been assured by magistrates in the city of Glasgow and by magistrates in the counties of Renfrew and Dumbarton, that this has been frequently pleaded in open court. The effects of this are very mischievous, because if persons are prohibited from working or keeping public-houses open only during the hours of Divine service, they in this lose all sense of the Divine authority of the Sabbath, and the very limits of this period are left very much as a mat- ter of discretion ; if houses are to be kept open up to the hour of Di- vine service, it is indeed quite impossible to prevent drinking being con- tinued during Divine service, without a regular party of police going through the houses and examining them ; nay, the period during which the grossest abuses take place, as affects public morals and public or- der, is not at all during the hours of Divine service; it is during the night between Saturday and the Lord's-day. By far the greatest num- ber of cases of offence in the police courts take place between Saturday night and Sunday morning; and this is often protracted late into the Lord's-day. You have stated that the old Scottish Acts of Parliament mainly com- mitted the charge of the Sabbath-day to the church courts; never- theless, did they not contemplate the authority of the civil magistrate 21 lire. D. Mucfarlan. l)eii)g brought in aid? — The civil inagislrate liad always power to act. Notwithstanding in the old time the authority of the magistrate was so brought in aid, is it not the fact that the desecration of the Sabbath may be mainly attributed to the unwillingness of the civil magistrate to aid the church courts in enforcing the law? — In many parts of the country this has to a very great extent been the case; and the refusal of inagistrates to take the part which they were accustomed to take, caused in many instances church authorities to cease from their labours, and voluntary associations, formed to promote Sabbath observance, to be broken up. Are you of opinion that it would mainly contribute to restore the sanctity of the Sabbath in Scotland, were any new act passed to enjoin civil magistrates to aid the church courts? — I think it would do much, if, in the first place, the penalties were raised to an amount corres- ponding to the change which has taken place in the value of money since their enactment. A summary of the Scottish Acts referred to I now hold in my hand, and beg to give in. If, in the second place, we had substituted in the Act for regulating licences, for " the hours of Divine service," " the whole Sabbath;" and lastly, if some law was en- acted for the regulation of steam vessels, respecting which our laws arc altogether silent, and the abuses connected with which have now arrived at an alarming extent. Can you state whether any special means have been employed in Scotland to restore the Sabbath to a state of better observance?- -The Presbytery of which I am a member, and other Presbyteries in the same district of country, took up the subject, and have been occupied with it during the last 10 or 12 months. They have already employed eccle- siastical means, and they have applied to the civil magistrates in the counties of Renfrew and Lanark. At the same time that those matters were going on, the commission of the General Assembly took up the subject in spring last, and it has now occupied the attention of the Ge- neral Assembly itself; but as I observe present the Rev. Dr. Lee of Edinburgh, principal clerk of Assembly, he will be able to give fuller evidence under this head, and I would refer therefore to him. Confin- ing then my attention to what has been done in the district of country with which I am connected, I may be allowed to mention, that as a Presbytery we petitioned the different quarter sessions in the county, and found them very ready to take up the subject, and they have al- ready passed resolutions for the regulating of public-houses, and pi-e- venting other abuses of a very important kind. The magistrates of the city of Glasgow have also taken up the subject and passed various re- solutions, and among other means they have issued a proclamation that I now hold in my hand, and which was placarded over the city. \_The n'itness delivered in the same, which was readJ] Beyond obtaining the aid of the civil magistrate in those districts of the country, we opened a communication with the masters of public works in our several parishes, in order to ascertain on what day of the week they generally paid their men. We found that they were, with few exceptions, accustomed to pay their men on the Saturday, and that this was one of the principal RiV. D. Mucfadan. 22 causes of so much drinking and consequent profanation on the Lord's- day. A considerable number of the principal masters of works in the town of Greenock agreed to make the experiment of paying the men their wages on an early -day of the week, and that experiment is now going on with prospect of success. Are you aware what day has been tried? — Tuesday has been gene- rally tried, and considered to be the best day, provided that there is no special market-day to render another more desirable. Then they think it advisable to pay their men on the market-day, that they may have an opportunity of providing for their families? — On the day preceding the market-day. Is it not unusual in Scotland to hold markets on the Saturday? — I am not personally aware of any market on the Saturday. The general principle on which this proceeds will appear from this : the iTiasteis of works, who have had the experience of paying on an early day of the week, assure us that when they pay their men on the Saturday, and they again divide their wages on a Saturday evening, and have before them an idle day, they associate together to enjoy themselves during the Lord's-day, and thus spend perhaps the greater part of their week's wages in public-honses ; whereas, when paid on an early day of the week, the wages have been chiefly taken up in providing for the wants of their families during the week, and they have not, therefore, the «ame inducement to spend the Lord's-day in profanity. In addition to tn'(s, we are now taking measures to get voluntary associations formed m our popidous parishes, for the purpose of promoting by moral sua- sion a better observance of the Lord's-day, such as formerly existed throughout similar parts of Scotland, that is, in places similar in point of population. Are such means as you have described, in your opinion sufficient to remedy the evil? — These and a variety of other moral means may be brought into operation with great effect, provided they were fully sup- ported by legal means, which in former times were always found neces- sary to give effect to ecclesiastical and other moral means. The follow- ing changes seem generally to be understood as particularly wanting : first, an enlarged church-accommodation, which cannot be effected with- out parliamentary interference; secondly, changing the penalties attach- ed to our old Scottish Acts, so as to render them conformable to the pre- sent value of money. Would that cliange alone ntiake the penalties sufficiently high to ren- der them effective? — I think they would : our money is only a twelfth of English money ; and if you multiply the penalties by 12, I think they will do. Thirdly, the following change in the Act of 1828 for regulat- ing licences, substitute for " the hours of Divine Service," the whole Sabbath, except in cases of necessity. Under the head of cases of necessity, should you include the power of the inhabitants of the neighbourhood to buy beer to drink in their own houses? — That is not at all practised in Scotland, and is not cousidered a case of necessity ; a case of necessity, as explained by the local ma- gistracy in the districts of country with which I am acquainted, would be the supplying of travellers, or the refreshing of people returning from Pivine worsliip, or such things. Fourthly, that some law should be 23 Rev. D. Macfarlun. eiiacletl to prevent Sabbath profanation by steam vessels. I am not aware that any Jaw exists in Scothmd to restrain the practice of break- ing the Sal)bath by steam-boats on the Lord's-day. Tliis is much wanted and much desired both by the magistrates and well-disposed in- habitants: I may also add, tliat many proprietors of steam- vessels, mas- ters of steam-vessels, but more especially the crew of steam-vessels, have expressed again and again to me a most anxious desire that some public enactment would equalize the observance of the Lord's-day in reference to tliis subject: these remarks apply to the navigation of the Clyde. Would you have the restriction apply not only to vessels opoin"' for parties of j)leasure, but likewise to towing vessels, such as you have for- merly described ? — It is equally desired in reference to all classes oi steam-vessels plying to and upon the Clyde. Should you anticipate any hostility from the merchants of Glasgow, if it were attempted to put a stop to the towing-vessels on Sunday? The steam com})anies immediately concerned, I have no doubt, mi^ht object to it; bnt I am disposed to believe that the general mercantile in- terest would offer no opposition in the world. I state this from com- n)unication with some of the first merchants in Glasgow, and some of the first persons in trade. Has the restriction, with respect to the sailing vessels from Glasgow, been at all times enforced? — Never, so far as I am aware; there are Acts of our General Assembly most explicitly prohibiting vessels leav- ing their moorings on the Lord's-day, but I am not aware of any Act of Parliament rendering that illegal. Does the term " moorings" apply not only to the rivers, but to the open harbours ? — Certainly. Would you not consider these Acts of Assembly to be binding upon the members of the church of Scotland? — Unquestionably. Are you aware of instances in which the Acts of the General Assem- bly have been enforced ? — I am not aware of an instance of their beinor enforced, except ecclesiastically, within my own observation. Supposing that new and stricter acts of legislation on the observance of the Sabbath were passed, might it not be deemed a legislating for re- ligion, and thereby not carry the public opinion with it to the same ex- tent that it miglit do were it considered merely a means of preserving the public tranquillity? — In the evidence I have given, and the opinions which I may have taken the liberty of offering, I proceed not on reli- gious grounds, but simply and altogether on general grounds of morality and good order. It would not be desired, it would not be at all wished for by either the friends of religion or of public order in Scotland, that any legislative enactment should go to enforce any attendance on reli- gious ordinances. The simple grounds on which we would place our desire that legal enactments should be rendered more strict are, first, tliat by the legal enactments all who will may rightly observe the Lord's day; it is altogether impossible without legal enactments for this to be secured to all, dependent as one part of society is on another ; the other ground is, that legal enactments should prevent gross and extensive sources of Sabbath-breaking, such for example as keeping public-houses open on the Lord's-day, as steam-boat plying, and (as sometimes hap- Rev. D. MacfarUm. 24 pens) carrying wliole loads of passengers, and putting them ashore on h. remote parish, where the whole of the country is put into a state of dis- order and confusion, and occasion gross abuses. Complaints of such as you have now mentioned are very frequent in the remote Highlands of Scotland, especially where Sunday was formerly a day of peace, are they not? — They are very common along the Frith of the Clyde, and the west coast of Scotland connected witli that Frith. A remarkable instance of this occurred just before I left home. The Sunday before I left home the Lord's Supper was observed in the parish of Dunoon, a Highland parish on the Frith of the Clyde; some steam- boats, loaded with passengers from Glasgow and other places, went on the Lord's-day to this parish. The minister of the parish was so much afraid of the uproar that would take place during their solemn services, that he requested his parishioners not to put out a boat for the landing of the passengers : his parishioners acted according to his direction, but the steam-boat turned round to a place about two miles distant, along the same coast, where there is a harbour, landed her passengers, and the whole parish was put into a state of the greatest confusion and abuse. Then the Committee are to understand, from the fact of the parish- ioners having complied with the request of the minister in not putting out their boats, that such inundations of company on such occasions are unacceptable to them? — They are most unacceptable and vexatious, ex- cept to persons keeping public -houses. Then from the valuable evidence which you have given, the Commit- tee are to understand that a change of the law, restoring the better ob- servance of the Sabbath, would be highly acceptable to the people of Scotland generally? — Confining my answer to that district of the coun- try with which I am acquainted, and to which I have repeatedly referred, I am warranted in saying that it would in the first place, be most acceptable to the local magistracy, to the magistrates of our towns and the justices of the peace throughout the country: that it would, in the second place, be most acceptable to the ministers and kirk sessions of the Established Church, and, with those, to the ministers and kirk-ses- sions, so far as my information goes, of the various Presbyterian dis- senting bodies; a proof of which is that very lately one of the largest Presbyteries of the largest of these issued an address to their sessions, and the members of their congregations specially, on this very subject : and lastly, that it would be very acceptable to the great body of the well-disposed inhabitants; the only class which I would excqjt are the persons who are accustomed to be guilty of disorderly conduct, and breaches of the Lord's day. From all you have stated with respect to the state of the Scottish law, the Committee are to understand that it is your opinion that the old law of Scotland, if the penalties were increased, would be sufficient to prevent all violations of the Sabbath, except such as arise from the abuses attending the keeping open the public-houses on that day, and the plying of steam-boats? — I tl^ini^ "-^ S.'J Ih'v. Dr. Uc TIte Re\. John Lki:, D.l)., called in ; and cxantined. You are a minister of the Ciuircli of Scotland, of Lady Yester's Cluuch of the city of Edinburgh ? — Yes. Have you had occasion to attend to the law and practice of Scotland in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, botli in early and latter times ? — Yes, 1 have attended to the subject during the greater part cf iry life. I was educated in a pastoral district of the country in the south of Scotland, in which the Sabbath was observed with great solemnity. I attended the University of Edinburgh from 1794 to the year 1804. For two or three years I was chiefly resident in England ; I subsequently lived in various parts of Scotland, both in the north and in the south; and for the last 10 }ears I have lived in Edinburgh, so that my opportunities of observation have been pretty extensive in both kingdoms. With regard to the ancient laws and practices of the Church, I have been led, by the stations which I have occupied, to pay particular attention to them. For 10 years I was Professor of Church History in the University of St. Andrew's, and I conceived it to be my duty to lay before my students a distinct and circumstantial view of the influence of the laws and practices of the Church of Scot- land, particularly during that period of its internal history which is least generally known. I have more recently filled the office of prin- cipal clerk of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, and thus 1 have had access to examine all the old laws and regulations of tlie Church, and also to observe in what manner the laws, both of the Church and of the State, were administered. Have your inquiries enabled you to state what were the ancient rules on this subject, how those rules were reduced to practice, and what effect they produced when they were most strictly and faithfully acted upon ? -I am well acquainted with the ancient laws, both of the Church and of the State, upon the subject. It probably would be tedious to enumerate them, and 1 have no doubt the Committee are already in possession of such of them as are most important ; perhaps I may take the liberty of observing, that so far as I have had an op- portunity of inquiring, it appears to me that the laws of the State on the subject liave been, with scarcely any exception, suggested by the church courts. I find that many of them first appeared in the books of the General Assembly, in the form of propositions, to be submitted to the Parliament of Scotland. Those suggestions were generally adopted by the Parliament, and converted into statutes. ^yas that the usual course, with respect to the Ecclesiastical Court generally in Scotland before the Union ? — I think it was so. There were however many acts of the church courts (not only of the General Assembly, but of the inferior church courts) which seemed to have a salutary effect, although they were not converted into Acts of Parlia- ment. It may perhaps not be improper to state, that during the earliest times of the Church of Scotland, after the Reformation, the Sabbath was not observed with the same strictness that it was at a period somewhat later. It is very commonly believed, that at the Reformation in Scotland, the leading individuals proceeded in general to an extreme as opposite as possible to the practices of the Church Rev. Dr. Lee. S6 which had previously existed, and became rigliteous over mucli. I find this was by no means the case ; in reality, the change was so gradual, and in some respects so imperfect, that at so late a period as the year 1374, about three years after the death of Knox, the practice of performing comedies on the Sabbath had not been altogether dis- continued, and that it was occasionally allowed to proceed, under the countenance and approbation of some of those church courts that might have been expected to be the most rijiid in refusing to allow any encroachment on the sanctity of the Lord's day. I shall, with the leave of the Committee, state one instance. On the 21st of July 1574, this minute is inserted in the record of the kirk-session of St. Andrew's : " The said day anent the supplication given by Mr. Patrick Auchiiilek, for pro- curing licence to play the comedy mentioned in St. Luke's Evangel, of tlie Forlorn Son (the Prodigal Son), upon Sunday the 1st day of August next to come), the seat (that is, the session) has desired, first, the play to be revised by my Lord Rector Minister (the minister of the parish), Mr. John Rutherford, Provost of St. Salva- tor's College, and Mr. James Wilkie, Principal of St. Leonard's College, and if they find no fault therewith, the same to be played upon the said Sunday the 1st of August, so that playing thereof be not occasion to withdraw the people from hearing of the preaching at the hour appointed, as well after noon as before noon." 1 may add, that the services of the Church of Scotland at that period were not nearly so tedious as has been commonly imagined. The ge- neral practice was at first to have a short sermon in the forenoon, and to catechise the people during the afternoon. Soon afterwards, the practice was introduced of having two separate services, and generally there was catechetical instruction communicated in the evening. About the period to v/hich I have referred, some very salutary regulations of a stricter character were introduced in the church courts. I find in par- ticular, in the record of the same kirk-session, that in the year 1574, a practice was introduced, of which the following account occurs : — " For good order to be observed in convening to hear the Word of God upon the Sabbath-day, and other days in the week when the Word of God is preached, as well of the students within colleges as inhabitants of this city, and others in the parish, the seat (or session) has ordained captors (afterwards named searchers) to be chosen to visit the whole town, according to the division of the quarters, and to that effect every Sunday there shall pass a baillie (that is a magistrate) and elder, two deacons, and two officers, armed with their halberts, and the rest of the bail- lies and officers to be in attendance, to assist to apprehend transgressors, to be punished conform to the acts of the kirk." Tills practice was soon afterwards universally observed throughout all the towns of Scotland, and continued to be observed, I believe, with scarcely any interruption for 150 years. Have you reason to believe that those comedies acted upon the Lord's day were accompanied with the usual profligacy and desecration of sacred things which is generally characteristic of them ? — I have no reason to think so with regard to this comedy; on the contrary, I believe it was intended to be a very sober kind of pastime, approach- ing somewhat to a religious observance ; probably it was expected to be edifying to the people. The subject which was chosen being of a religious nature?— Yes ; and it might be proper to state, that soon afterwards, such amuse- ments as dramatic performances were not only discountenanced, but altogether prohibited on that day. 1 may here mention a specimen 27 Ihv. Dr. Lee. of the manner in wliicli these profane amusements were denounced. On the 2d of March following, this minute is inserted : "Theministev is oidained on Siuiduy next to cliarge all persons, specialie young men, not to presume to violate die Sabbatli-day by using of plays and games pub- liclie, as Uiey were wont to do, contrefuting the playis of Robin Huid, expressly forbidden by Act of Parliament. " I find in the same record, in the year 1595, " John Ross, master of the Song School, on his knees asked God mercy for using and playing a part of a comedy and play in St. Leonard's College, at the time of the last Batchelor Act. Mr. John Echlin, regent to the batchelors, and Mr. John Douglas, pedagogue to my Lord Buchan, confessed, in presence of the session, that it was against their wills that the said play was played, and promised here- after to stay and withstand all such things at their power, and never to do the like in time coming." Have you any reason to know what the character of the performance was, for the acting of which on the Lord's day that penance was un- dergone ? - I have no reason to know, but I know that not long after- wards such performances were prohibited altogether. Thus, October 1st, 1598. " An Englishman having desired libertie of the session to make ane public play in this city, it was voted and concluded that he sal not be permitted to do the same." Are you in possession of any evidence that would guide the Com- mittee to a history of the transition from the old to the new practice of Scotland, in reference to the Sabbath? — I beg leave to produce to the Committee extracts from the books of aeveral kirk-sessions, for the purpose of shewing in what manner the laws against Sabbath- breaking were administered by those church courts; it is needless to enter into any farther detail. [ Z'/te ivitness delivered in the same, ivhich were read.~\ Are those civil or ecclesiastical courts r — Ecclesiastical. Then their regulations have only the force of law as far as the}' are supported by Act of Parliament? — Certainly; but at the same time I find that at those times they occasionally made regulations themselves, some of which I cannot ascertain to have been authorized by any Acts of Parliament, regulations in virtue of which they not only imposed pecuniary fines, and to a large amount, but likewise placed the offenders in close and rigorous confinement, and also occasionally inflicted cor- poral punishment. Thus, I find in the book of the session of St. Andrew's, May 81, 1649, the following minute: "James Allen, for breaking of the Sabbath, to be scourged in the tolbooth by one of the town officers, at the sight of the magistrates." Do you find in any part of the same period any protest against such infliction of punishment, in consequence of the regulations under which they inflicted that punishment not being supported by civil enactments? — No, I find no such instances ; but it is proper to remark, that the kirk- sessions in towns, in those times, in all cases I believe, included a j)roportion of the magistrates, so that it might be under that mixed jurisdiction of a court composed of members partly ecclesiastical, and partly possessed of civil authority, that those proceedings took place. It is proper to add, however, that the kirk-session of Crail, though in this predicament, incurred the disapprobation of the presbytery for exceed- ing their powers ; and the presbytery, in 1650, appointed them " to Rev. Dr. Lee. 28 refer to the civil magistrate tlie enjoining of corporal punishments or pecunial mulcts."' The moderator of the kirk-session at this time was Mr. James Sharp (afterwards archbishop of St. Andrew's), a man of an arbitrary disposition. Will 3'ou go on to state what effect those regulaiions produced when they were thus strictly and faithfully acted upon ? — I have reason to believe that the effect produced was highly salutary • but without entering into detail, I shall feel obliged to the Committee to be allowed to produce an extract from Kirton's History, which is understood to be a very authentic memorial of the time, as showing what was the state of public morals when those rules were most strictly observed. The same was delivered in. " Now, before we speak of the alteration court influence has made upon the Church of Scotland, let us consider in what case it was at this time. There be in all Scotland some 900 paroches, divided into 68 presbytries, which are again can- toned into 14 synods, out of all which, by a solemn legation of commissioners from every presbytrie, they used yearly to constitute a national assembly. At the King's return (in 1660) every parochehade a minister, every village hade aschoole, every family almost hade a Bible, yea, in most of the countrey, all the children of age could read the Scriptui-es, and were provided of Bibles, either by the parents or their ministers. I have lived many years in a paroche where I never heard ane oath, and you might have ridde many miles before you hade heard any : also, you could not for a great part of the countrey have lodged in a family where the Lord was not worshipped by reading, singing, and publick prayer. Nobody complained more of our church government than our taverners, whose ordinary lamentation was, their trade was broke, people were become so sober." To this description, which I have ground for believing is chiefly ap- plicable to the south and west of Scotland, with which the writer was best acquainted, I may take occasion to add, that I have great reason to think that the Sabbath was observed with the greatest strictness and solemnity in Scotland soon after the period of the Revolution of 1688, till about the year 1730, Have you reason to think that was the period at which the Sabbath was best observed ? — Yes. To what cause would you ascribe that marked and visible change? — To the very great vigilance, faithfulness, and zeal with which both ministers and elders performed their duty towards those who were placed under their charge, and more perhaps than to any other cause, to the universal practice of Bible education. At that period the system of parochial education had become ge- neral, had it not? — It was legalized about the year 1693 j but though in the Lowlands it had been almost universally prevalent before the middle of the seventeenth century, I cannot venture to say that it became general, in those parts of the country that required it most, till after the middle of the eighteenth century. In the year 1758, there were 175 parishes in the Highlands in which parochial schools had never been erected. Then do you collect, from your acquaintance with the history of that period, that there was a marked difference between those parts of the country which had come under the operation of scriptural edu- cation, and those parts of the country to which it had not been ex- tended, in reference to the observance of the Sabbath? — In answer to that question^ I can only venture so say, that the records which I '20 Itn. Dr. Lee. have inspected are for the most part those of the parts of tiie country in which scriptural education was generally introduced. The parts of the country in which it was less introduced were the Highlands of Scotland ; and though I have access to know, from the records of the Society in Scotland for propagating Cln-istian Knowledge, as vA'ell as other sources, what was the general state of education in that part of the country. I cannot venture to say that I know it nearly as minutely as I do with regard to the Lowlands. Is it not your opinion, founded upon your general acquaintance with the state of Scotland, that there was a very marked distinction, reli- giously and morally speaking, hetween the habits of the two great di- visions of the country to which you refer ?. — There is the strongest evidence that there was a marked distinction between the two; for the government of Charles II. could find no such fit instruments of the severities exercised on the Presbyterians in the West, as the High- landers, whose principles and manners appeared to be altogether different. With such horror were these atrocities long remembered in Ayrshire, that for more than fifty years after the Revolution in 1688, it is said that a Jacobite or a Roman Catholic was not there to be found j and it is ascertained, that in that large county not so much as one man could be induced to follow the fortunes of the House of Stuart, in the year 1715. It is also recorded, in reports almost annually transmitted to the General Assembly, that in several parts of the Highlands the population was long in a state of almost entire heathenism. Up to what period ? — I may almost say till after the year 17'15 ; but certainly till after the accession of George I. Has there been any favourable change in the general religious con- dition of the Highlands of Scotland since the year 1730, more espe- cially with relation to the observance of the Lord's-day ? — I have reason to think that there has been a favourable change, which indeed had commenced some years before that period. To what do you ascribe this favourable change ? — I ascribe it partly to the exertions of the Society in Scotland for propagating Christian Knowledge, which was founded about the year 1709, and which by establishing schools for teaching to read, especially the Holy Scrip- tures, in the more necessitous districts of the Highlands, has proved the means of greatly increasing the religious knowledge of the people, and consequently of increasing the reverence for the Lords-day, and for other Divine institutions. Among the statutes and rules of this society, published in 1732, the following bear directly on this subject : " The masters are to take care that themselves and their scholars frequent the pub- lic worship on the Lord's-day, unless they be hindered from it by their great dis- tance from the church, or by bad weather ; in whicli case they are to spend a con- siderable part of the Lord's-day with their scholars, in praying, singing psalms, reading the Holy Scriptures, and catechising." " They are to use their utmost endeavours with Papists, to persuade them to send their children to school, and to take double care with such children, when they come to inculcate to them the principles of die reformed Protestant religion, and by all gentle means endeavour to persuade them to attend public ordinances, but not to use any kind of com- pulsion." The benefits derived from this system of education have often been Rev. Dr. Lee. 30 strongly attested by tlic General Assembly. I ascribe the improve- ment also in a very considerable degree to the operations of a com- mittee of the General Assembly, annually appointed for administering a fund known by the name of iiis Majesty's Royal Bounty, consisting of an annual grant which has been placed at the disposal of the General Assembly ever since the year 1725. This grant, amounting ori- ginally to 1,000/., and of late years to 2,000/., is applied in providing missionaries and catechists for such districts of the country as are not supplied by the Society for propagating Christian Knowledge. Efforts have also been made by different societies to promote religious in- struction in the Highlands ; and since the middle of the last century, parochial schools have been established in many parishes in which the heritors or landed proprietors had previously contrived to evade the law, requiring a parochial school to be erected and supported in every parish. Of late years there has been an additional fund created by the subscriptions and collections at the church-doors in the Lowlands, which is under the direction of a committee of the General Assembly. For what purpose ? — For the purpose of increasing the means of education and religious instruction in the Highlands and Islands. There has also been the grant of a sum of for erecting and en- dowing churches in many of those large parishes, for which the minis- trations of the parochial minister are altogether inadequate. The number of churches built in consequence of this grant is, I think, forty. VVhat is your opinion as to the effect upon the moral and religious habits of the Highlanders, produced by the diminished duty upon spirits, with reference to the discouragement of illicit distillation ? — The information that I have officially received from ministers in the Highlands upon the subject, is generally such as to warrant the belief that the change has been very favourable ; at the same time it is complained of by some of them, that it has been less favourable than might have been expected, in consequence of the introduction of a number of public-houses in places where they had previously been unknown. Do you think that, on the whole, the good that has resulted from the discouragement of illicit distillation is more than counterbalanced by the evil resulting from the increased consumption of spirits conse- quent upon the diminution of the duty? — I think the advantages are quite counterbalanced by the evil, which has extended to a great pro- portion of the population of the country. Have you any other circumstance to state with reference to the profanation of the Sabbath in the Highlands? — 1 have to state, that by information which I have received from some of the ministers, the travelling in the Highlands, with a view to visit the scenery, has increased to so great a degree within the last 20 years, as, in those particular districts, to have occasioned a very great desecration of the Sabbath, particularly on the route from Dunkeld to Loch Kathe- rine. Many of the people, particularly boys, are employed as guides ; and in that way are altogether led away from the church, and from other opportunities that they might have of enjoying the benefit of religious instruction. 31 Rtv. Dr. Lee. The visitors liaving no scruple of employing those bo}s on Sunday ? — No ; and besides exemplifying often evcrj' species of levity which might have been formerly unknown in those retired spots. I have had also communications uitli regard to the effect of sailing in steam vessels to the different islands on the west of Scotland on that day, from which it appears that the solemnity of the Sabbath has been greatly interrupted in places whicii formerly were considered almost inaccessible. Are you disposed to identify the general improvement of tlie conn- try, religiously and morally speaking, with the general diffusion of scriptural education? — Most certainly; indeed, I think there is the strongest evidence upon that subject, evidence that cannot possibly be controverted ; it is found in a document still extant and in print, namely, the dedication of the first Scottish edition of the Bible to Jamt's the Sixth, which edition was printed in the year 1579, exactly 20 years after the Reformation, in which it is expressly stated, that so great had been the progress of religious instruction, particularly in that form, in a country where less than 40 years before the Bible was not suffered to be read, that almost every house possessed a copy of the Bible, and had the Bible read in it. It is ascertained also, that in the time of the Covenanters, which I believe to have been a period of great religious light, and of great strictness and purity of morals, there was scarcely an individual in the Lowlands of Scotland who could not read, and who was not in the habit of reading the Bible, and scarcely a family in which the worship of God was not regularl}"^ performed, both by celebrating the praises of God, reading the Scriptures, and prayer. Such a description could not possibly apply to the Highlands ; at that period there was no such thing as a translation of the Bible into the native language of the Highlanders. A considerable supply' of Gaelic or Irish Bibles was furnished to them in the year 1690, at the expense of the Hon. Robert Boyle; soon afterwards the Book of Psalms, the Catechism, and the Confession of Faith, were published in Gaelic ; but there was no edition even of the New Testament fit for being used in schools, or indeed for any purpose, till 1767, and from that period a great improvement may be dated. After the Re- volution, I find from the accounts of the schools in towns and lowland parishes, some of which I have in my possession, that in the periodical examinations which took place, there are regular returns of the num- bers of the children who were reading different books, some of them the New Testament, but the greater part reading the entire Bible, and that was the period certainly when the Sabbath was most strictly observed, and when, according to all the accounts that can be best relied upon, the morals of the people were likewise the most health}'. Then according to the opinion which you have expressed, it would seem that you ascribe the grounding of the principles of the Refor- mation in the mind of the Scottish population to the general diffusion of the Sciiptures, and the extension of scriptural schools? — Certainly, to that cause, in combination with the faithful preaching of the Word ; for important as the readin<>; of the Scriptures is, v.e have alwa\s con- sidered ourselves as being authorized by the Bible itself to declare that it is ciiiefly by preaching that the knowledge of the Gospel is to be liev. Dr. Lee. 3-2 p.cqiiired. It is at the same time always to be remembered, that the influence of preaching cannot be expected to be nearly so great on the minds which are unacquainted with the divinely-inspired language in which tl)e will of God is conveyed, as on those who from the age of childhood liave known the Holy' Scriptures, and have thus passed through that process of mental cultivation which prepares them for receiving into good and honest hearts that incorruptible seed which alone can qualify ou conceive that the disposition to sanctify the Sabbath bears a proportion to the religious instruction of a people? — Surely 5 indeed, I never can conceive the Sabbath to be conscientiously observed, observed from principle, unless the practice is founded in the know- ledge of the doctrines of religion, and the recognition of the Divine authority of the Old and New Testament. Were those Acts to which you have referred operative in the High- lands as well as the Lowlands? — I find at least that in the Highlands of Perthshire, consisting, however, chiefly of parishes on the borders of the Lowlands, they were strictly acted upon so long ago as the year 1650. I hold in my hand an extract from the session book of the kirk of Logierait, of that date, in which on the 7th of September an in- dividual is delated (accused) as gleaning the bear in the field on the Lord'sday ; this person laboured to extenuate her fault, but was dealt with by the session showing her that the least sin deserves eternal punishment 5 she was ordained to come the next day before the con- gregation and acknowledge her sin publicly, and to be earnest with God for mercy. I find a ?e\v years afterwards that the laws appear to have been very vigilantly acted upon, in so far as that kirk- session had the means of enforcing them. Thus in IGT-i, it was a regulation in the same parish, '' That the elders be most diligent observers and delators of the breakers of the Sab- bath-day, by drinking, carrying of burdens, drying of clotlies, bleaching, or any otlier civil affairs, contrair the command ; and if it shall be found that any elder shall connive with any such persons, that then and in that case, for iiis first fault he shall be admonished before the session; for the second, rebuked ; and for the third, publicly reproved before the congregation and put from his eldership, except he acknowledge his fault, and promise amendment." But with respect to the Highlands generally, I do not possess very minute information ; but I know that in many parts there was very little appearance of piety, and in consequence of the prevalence of ignorance and superstition there is too great reason to believe that a large proportion of the people lived in a state of practical heathenism. Consequently, the Lord'sday could have been but little observed? — Surely. I hold in my hand an Act for the better observation of the Lord's day, passed by the Parliament begun at Westminster on the 17th of September 1656, being the time of the Protector, which applies to Scotland and Ireland as well as to England, and which is the most complete legislative enactment upon the subject which I have ever had the opportunity of examining, and which I will take the 33 Rev. Dr. Lee. liberty to deliver in, thougli I never Hnd it referred to in any of the ciiurcli records. [ The IVitness delivered in the same.] Can you say, from your knowledge of history, wljcther the descrip- tion given by a celebrated novelist of the period of the Covenanters is historically correct, and vvhetlier their precise manners were as strongly marked in contrast to the other party as that ingenious writer would have us to suppose ? — Most certainly that description is not histori- cally correct ; there never was such gloom attending the observance of the Sabbath in Scotland as that celebrated writer alleges. The Sabbath, though observed with the greatest reverence, was a day rather of sober and cheerful piety than of any pfiinful restraint. It may be, as the question has been asked, not improper to state, that the greater part of the description applying to the religion and morals of that class of persons in Scotland who are known by the name of Covenanters, must have been supplied almost altogether by the imagination of the writer. He seems equally to have forgotten the state of things before the Restoration of Charles 2, and the state of things which supervened upon that event, which was certainly hailed as joyfully by the Presbyterians of Scotland as by any other class of his Majesty's subjects, although they had great cause afterwards to complain of the harsh treatment which they experienced, in violation of the solemn promises which that monarch had repeatedly made to them. But on that subject, as I believe the authority of the cele- brated writer referred to is often thought almost the best that can be quoted, I think it right to state that he seems to have been utterly unacquainted both with the observances of the Presbyterian Church, and those of the Episcopalian Chuich which succeeded it. He imagines, for instance, that the Liturgy was observed after the Re- storation of Charles 2 ; whereas in point of fact, the only change that took place in the worship in the churches consisted in the discon- tinuance of the Directory and the adoption of three Articles, which had not been tliought offensive in the days of Knox, namely, the use of the Lord's Prayer, the repetition of the Creed by parents when thev brought their children to be baptized, and the use of a doxology in connexion with the singing of Psalms. These were the only marked deviations from the worship which had been previously observed ; and the whole objection of the people of Scotland arose from their belief that the hierarchy and his Majesty's claim of supremacy in matters ecclesiastical were not divinely warranted, and that the power of the Church, patronized by the King, had been exercised formerly, and they were afraid would still continue to be exercised, in a manner in- consistent v\ith the full enjoyment of their religious privileges. I refer to these particulars merely as specimens of the inaccuracy of the de- scriptions which have probably made an impression not easily effaced, though it has done great injustice to the characters of an oppressed and persecuted race, who, derided as they have been as feeble-minded fanatics, did more than any other body of men both to maintain the interests of religion, and to secure for their posterity the enjoyment of civil liberty. But, in point of fact, there was neither in the form of worship on the Lord's day, nor in the general tone of ths preaching, that marked No. vm. c Rev. Dr. Lee. 34 difference which that same author would have us to suppose is so strong ? — There was a difference, but not such as he represents. In point of fact, to the one party has been attributed the manners and feelings of the 19tb century, while with regard to the other party, themanners and habits of the 17th century are characterized ? — Surely; but at the same time it is right to observe, that there was a very marked and glaring distinction between the character of the ministers of the one denomination and of the other at the period referred to ; and in my apprehension the description given by Bishop Burnet, who could scarcely be suspected of undue partiality to Presbyterians, is in some re- spects one of the most candid which is to be found. The strictest Presbyterian, in his anxiety to defend the outraged and insulted cha- racter of his forefathers, may almost be content to refer to such an honest chronicler as Burnet. He owns, that the Presbyterian ministers who were turned out of their livings in 1662, were grave, solemn, di- ligent and faithful, whereas the new incumbents put in the places of the ejected preachers, were generally very mean and despicable, the worst preachers he ever heard, ignorant to a reproach, many of them openly vicious, a disgrace to their order, and to the sacred functions, and indeed the dreg and refuse of the northern parts. The effect produced by legislation upon the moral and religious habits of the people of the Lowlands of Scotland has been stated by you up to the period of 1730; will you be so good as to continue your statement with reference to later periods ? — I am not able to ascertain that some of the practices to which I have referred, particularly those of searching the more populous districts of the parishes, in towns es- pecially, during the time of Divine service, and calling the absentees to account for their neglect of religious duty, and for their profanation of the Sabbath, continued later than the year 1730 : I have been able to trace it down only to that period. Do you know when the Sabbath ceased to be observed with the same strictness and solemnity by which it had been so long dis- tinguished in Scotland ? — I have reason to think that a very consider- able change for the worse took place more than 40 years ago. I have not the same certain sources of information with regard to the period which intervened between the year 1730 and 1780. But from the period of more than 40 years ago, is it your opinion that there has been a gradual falling off in the observance of the day ? — Yes, I think so, from many conversations which I have had with most intelligent persons, both those who are ministers of the Church, and other pious individuals throughout the country ; and I perceive, in a curious paper published by the late Mr. Creech, an eminent bookseller, and at one time chief magistrate of Edinburgh (which may be seen in the Statistical Account of Scotland), that in Edinburgh particularly the defection was very strongly marked about the year 1783. Mr. Creech contrasts the religious and moral character of the townspeople in 1763 with that of 1 783, in thefoUowing terms : — "In 1763, it was fashionable to go to church, and people were interested about religion. Sunday was strictly observed by all ranks as a day of devotion, and it was disgraceful to be seen on the streets durnig the time of public worship. Fa- mihes attended church with their children and servants, and family worship was frequent. In 1783, attendance on church was greatly neglected, and particularly 35 Rev. Dr. Lee. by the men ; Sunday was by many made a day of relaxation, and young people were allowed to stroll about at all hours. Families thought it ungenteel to take their domestics to church with them. The streets were far from being void of people in the time of public worship, and in the evenings were frequently loose and riotous, particularly owing to bands of apprentice boys and young lads. Fa- mily worship was almost disused. In no respect were the manners of 1763 and 178.3 more remarkable, than in the decency, dignity, and delicacy of the one pe- riod, compared with the looseness, dissipation, and licentiousness of the other. Many people ceased to blush at what would formerly have been reproved as a crime. " In 1763, masters took charge of their apprentices, and kept them under their eye in their own houses. In 1783, few masters would receive apprentices to stay in their houses ; and yet from them an important part of succeeding society is to be formed : if they attended their hours of business, masters took no further charge. The rest of the time might be passed (as too frequently happens) in vice and de- bauchery ; hence they become idle, insolent, and dishonest. In 1791, the prac- tice had become still more prevalent. Reformation of manners, to be general or effectual, must begin in families. " In 1763, the clergy visited, catechised, and instructed the families within their respective parishes, in the principles of morality, Christianity, and the relative duties of life. In 1783, visiting and catechising were disused, (except by a very few,) and since continue to be so ; nor perhaps would the clergy now be received with welcome on such an occasion. " In 1763, the question respecting the morality of stage-plays was much agi- tated. By those who attended the theatre even without scruple, Saturday night was thought the most improper in the week for going to the play. In 1783, the morality of stage-plays, or their effects on society, were not thought of. The most crowded houses were always on Saturday night. The practice of taking a box for the Saturday night through the season, was much practised by boarding-mis- tresses, so that there could be no choice of the play, but the young ladies could only take what was set before them by the manager. The galleiies never failed to ap- plaud what they formerly would have hissed, as improper in sentiment or de- corum. " In 1763, hairdressers were few, and hardly permitted to dress hair on Sun- days, and many of them voluntarily declined it. In 1783, hairdressers were more than trebled in number, and their busiest day was Sunday. "In 1763, the revenue arising from the distillery in Scotland amounted to 4,7391. In 1783, to 192,0001. " In no respect was the sobriety and decorum of the lower ranks in 1 763 more remarkable, than by contrasting them with the riot and licentiousness of 1 783, par- ticularly on Sundays and holydays." As a proof that the profanation of the Sabbath had been increasing in Scotland before the year 1794, it may be mentioned that the General Assembly of that year thought it necessary to publish an admonition on the subject ; and in 1795 the General Assembly evidently enter- tained an opinion that some new legislative enactment had become necessary ; for the records bear, that " the Assembly instructed the procurator to watch the introduction of any bill respecting the due observation of the Lord's day ; to correspond with tlie introducer of such bill ; to transmit to him a copy of the admonition and information on the subject, published by authority of the last Assembly ; and to request his particular attention to the state of Scotland respecting that subject." Can you assign the causes which appear to have been most instru- mental in producing this change ? — I think one of the causes to which 1 may refer is that which has been recently adverted to, namely, the c 2 Bev. Dr. Lee. 36 relaxation of the discipline of the Cliurch. Another cause I conceive to have been the progressive decline of scriptural instruction through- out the schools in Scotland. I think another cause must have been the increased communication with England and Ireland, and the gra- dual introduction of new habits in consequence of that more frequent intercourse. Another powerful cause 1 conceive to have been the in- fluence of infidel publications, and the substitution of frivolous reading for the grave and improving instruction conveyed in the writings of the popular divines, with which the peasantry of Scotland as well as the mechanics in towns had previously been very familiar. Another source of this change I conceive to have been the ensnaring example of men of rank and official station. I beg also to mention, in some cases, pro- bably, though I trust not generally, the decreasing attention to th.e practice of parochial visitation by the . ministers of parishes. But on this head, I must observe that this decreasincr attention must not always be considered as having been the fault of the ministers. It was found that persons of higher station, in many districts of the country, were often of a different creed from the listablished Church, and therefore they were not so accessible to the ministers as their predecessors had generally been in former times ; at the same time many of the labour- ing classes in populous districts had seceded from the Church, not only in consequence of dissatisfaction with the ministrations of the estab- lished clergy, or in consequence of a conviction that the Church had degenerated, but very much because they had not sufficient accommo- dation in the parish churches, a circumstance to which I shall advert under another head. When so great a proportion both of the higher and of the lower ranks ceased to be members of the Establishment, it is natural to suppose that the visits of the ministers, though not alto- gether discontinued, would be less efficacious. I may add, that at about the period to which I refer, a great change took place in the distribution of the population of Scotland, partly in consequence of the enlargement of farms, and partly from the introduction of machinery both into the operations of agriculture and the other arts. In con- nexion with this, I beg to advert to the neglect, as I must consider it, of the Government of the country, to provide sufficient accommo- dation in churches for the rapidly increasing population, and also to provide adequately for the education of the poor. I may also take no- tice of a circumstance which must have materially affected the observ- ance of the Sabbath, namely, the close confinement and severe labour of persons (both children and adults) employed in manufactories during the week, tempting them to seek for relaxation on the Lord's day. I think I may also add, as one of the occasions of Sabbath profanation, the turn for political discussion among all classes of people, which was introduced during the American war, and still more at the time of the French Revolution, and which abstracted the nn'nds even of some of the most sober, quiet and peacable of the population from those more momentous subjects which had previously occupied a greater share of their attention. I think another very powerful cause of the lamentable change that took place, was the influence of military habits during the war which began in 1793, particularly during the early period of that war. Towns and villages were generally crowded with troops ; there '^f f>fv. Dr. Lee. was much consequent depravity among their juvenile companions, both male and female ; Sunday evening parades were almost universal wherever troops were stationed ; there were performances of martial music on the evening of tlie Lord's day, attracting great crowds of people from their liouses ; this was often followed by adjournment to taverns or to equally ensnaring rural walks under thecloud of night ; and to the associations that were thus formed, I believe many may date the corruption of their principles and habits ; and the general tendency- of the circumstances to which I have now alluded was greatly to fami- liarize tlie people of Scotland to a mode of observing the Sabbath alto- gether different from that to which they had been accustomed in earlier times. As another source of the change to which i have re- ferred, I may state what must already be under the view of the Com- mittee, the facilities of travelling consequent on the improvement of roads, the multiplication of public conveyances, the frequency of com- munication by post, and, at a later period, the introduction of steam navigation. With regard to stage-coaches, it may be right to notice that the practice of travelling in stage-coaches in Scotland on the Lord's day (witli the exception of the mail,) has hitherto prevailed to a very hmited extent, but I observe it creeping in in Edinburgh in a form v^hich I rather aj)prehend may prevent that check being imposed upon it, which in other circumstances would probably be thought necessary. I find that among the inhabitants of the town, whose families in sum- mer resort to villages and small towns in thvi neighbourhood, for sea- bathing or other purposes, a number are in the habit of coming to Edinburgh on the morning of the Sabbath in stage-coaches. As the object of travelling on those occasions appears to be a good one, I sus- pect that it may in that way be allowed gradually and almost insen- gibly to be introduced to a much greater extent than it would other- wise have been ; and I have further to state, that it is found in Edin- burgh that the prevalent practice of using hackney-coaches as well as private carriages in conveying people to church, prevents a considerable portion of the population from almost ever enjoying the benefit of at- tending on religious ordinances. Does it not arise partly out of the fact that the city of Edinburgh has been greatly enlarged, and thereby the distance from |)ldces of worshiji, in many cases, increased? — Yes, il arises out of that circum- stance ; but it is very much to be lamented, because it is consistent with my knowledge, that it produces a most unfavourable change upon the minds of those persons who are so employed. There are persons, previously understood to be of serious dispositions, boiii servants and hackney-coachmen, who being employed in conveying company to the church, both morning and evening, have never an opportunity of at- tending Divine service tlicmselves, from the beginning to the end of the year, and the influence of this habitual absence from the public services of religion is more easily conceived than de^cribed. I am. sure it does not occur to many of those individuals themselves, to what consequences the practice does lead j otherwise 1 think, if they could not be edified by attending a place of worship near them, they would make an effort to find a residence in the neighbourhood of the church M-hich they prefer, rather than drive past half the churches in the town. Rev. Dr. Lee. 38 Both as respects private conveyances and hackney-coaches, might not the individuals wlio drive them put their vehicles up during Divine service, and attend public worship ? — No, I do not think it is generally possible; if they were, to do so, they would for the most part find it necessary to return home to a considerable distance. If they did not return home, but left the horses at livery stables (which, however, are not to be found in the vicinity of every church), they must still employ another set of people, who would thus be kept from church. In point of fact, they are often in the habit of adjourning in considerable numbers to public-houses in the immediate neighbourhood of the churches, and thus an additional mode of profanation is introduced. With respect to private carriages, if the owners insisted on their servants attending upon Divine service, and putting their carriage up, the opportunity of attending Divine worship would still be given to those servants ? — I believe, in point of fact, it would be found to be difficult. I have no doubt that many of them do it from thoughtless- ness; it is not proper to ascribe motives, but I believe many use this practice, if not from the love of vain parade, at least from want of con- sideration, and I state the circumstance now merely in the hope that it may draw attention in some of those quarters in which I think this practice has been injuriously followed, while the parties, I am fully convinced, have not considered it as leading to any evil; I speak only of cases in which it is done not of necessity, but through mere thought- lessness or vanity. I may also take notice of the great change which is taking place in the mode of living in Scotland, particularly among people in business, who formerly were in the habit of taking their ser- vants and apprentices to church along with them, and also of exer- cising a strict inspection over their conduct, catechizing and otherwise instructing them in the evenings of the Sabbath, but who now too often allow them to wander as they will. A very great evil has been experienced in Edinburgh, and I believe in many other large towns, in consequence of the liberty of visiting and walking, which is almost universally allowed to servants on Sundays by their masters and mis- tresses, who do not seem to recollect that that is a day which God has appropriated to himself, and which is not at tiie disposal of any human being. I might here notice as a cause of Sabbath profanation, the great multiplication of public-houses, and the facihty of gratifying in- temperate propensities in consequence of the lowering of the duty on spirits. But I have no doubt these circumstances must be fully under the view of the Committee. The only other particular which I shall mention as a cause of the profanation of the Sabbath, is the great increase of newspapers and other periodical publications, which are sometimes printed on the Sunday, and which are very generally read by various classes of people on that day, so as to withdraw them from those religious exercises which are the proper occupation of the Chris- tian Sabbath, as well as constituents of the purest enjoyment. Is it a fact that any periodicals are printed and published in Edin- burgh on the Sunday ? — The fact is, that there are no periodicals pub- lished of any class in Edinburgh on the Sunday, so far as I know, but some of the newspapers which are published on Monday morning are printed on the Sunday, or at least occasionally in a great measure 39 Rev. Dr. Lee. printed on that day. I shall state two facts which came to my know- ledge very recently, as illustrative of tliat subject. About nine months a^o a person who regularly attends niy churcli, applied to me for ihe baptism of his child. Having reason to believe that the man was of a good character, and regular in the discharge of all the private duties of life, I could have no objection to administei the ordinance, except one, and it was this, that he was not a communicant. I asked him how it was that he lived in the neglect of that religious duty ; he stated to me that he had the strongest impression of the Divine obligation of every professing Christian to keep up the remembrance of the death of Christ, in that solemn ordinance, but he felt that from the mode of life that he pursued, he was in hisown apprehension not warranted to avail himself of that privilege. Asking him what he meant, I was told, that being a printer, he was habitually required to work on the Lord's day; though he felt the greatest scruple of conscience, he had never ventured to give up his employment, and on that account alone he declined to become a communicant. On making further inquiry, I found that a very considerable number of persons are employed in that way almost every Lord's day, not during the whole day, but beginning soon after Divine service is over in the evening, about five or six o'clock ; thus being altogether abstracted from the charge and inspection of a young family, and thus being also tempted to spend a part of that day in sleep, which otherwise they would be disposed to spend in attendance upon their religious duties. The effect of it upon many must be to withdraw them altogether from attendance upon Divine ordinances. I beg just to state another case, which sliows that the evil has gone as far north as Inverness. Within these last three weeks, as being a member of the Society in Scotland for propagating Christian Knowledge, I was applied to by a man to be examined, with a view to an appointment as a teacher under that society. I asked whether he had been accustomed to teach ; he told me no, he had been a printer, but he could not con- tinuein the employmentinwhichhehad beenengagedforthelast lOyears nearly, because he was now required either to work on the Lord's day, or else to give up his employment ; and this person was employed on a newspaper which is printed only weekly, on the Tuesday. Is it not your opinion, then, that the publication of periodicals on the Monday morning tends greatly to the breach of the Sabbath in Edinburgh ? — They tend, I think, in a considerable degree. Can you give any information in regard to the practice of delivering letters and newspapers at the General Post-office in Edinburgh on the Sabbath day ? — It is not carried by any means to a great extent in Edinburgh, the time is very limited ; I think there are two hours in the day at which persons may have letter§ by calh'ng for them, but I scarcely think there is any town in Scotland where there is less of the delivery of letters on the Sabbath than there is in Edinburgh. Have you any remarks to make upon newspapers or periodicals that are usually read on the Sunday ? — The injurious effect of the practice must be so obvious that I scarcely think it necessary to make any remark, except this, that I have observed of late that some publica- tions have been introduced with a view of obviating the evils arising from that kind of reading ; and I am rather apprehensive that some of Rev. Dr. Lee. 40 the very papers which have been intended to counteract the evil may prove a cause of extending it, for I observe one paper in particular which set out professedly as a paper calculated to convey religious instruction, which on examination I perceive consists now, whatever it might have done at first, chiefly of extracts from books which are the very reverse of religious. It being well known that there is no Sunday delivery of letters at all events in London, might not the same practice be observed at the post-offices in Scotland, without consequences injurious to the com- munity? — Most ceitainly; and I think it is most desirable that there should be no such thing. But I may state, as this question has been asked, that in many of the towns in Scotland the letters are distri- buted on the Sunday, 1 mean they are carried about in the same manner as they are on other days-; and indeed in many places of the country, they are much more delivered on that day than on any other, for people living at a distance from post towns, when they go to church, avail themselves of that opportunity of getting probably all the letters that have been sent for them during the week. Not having anticipated any inquiries on this subject, I cannot be very exact in point of dates; but in looking lately at the Acts of the General Assembly, about the year 1759, I noticed that there had been strong remonstrances against the travelling of the post in Scotland, when it was first introduced ; and I have also learnt from some of the maga- zines that petitions against that innovation were sent to Government from many places, and particularly from Glasgow, the greatest commercial town in Scotland. This was perhaps one of the first modes in which Government during the last century not only countenanced, but to a certain extentenjoined, theviolationof therestof theSabbathin Scotland. You conceive, with a view to the strict observance of the Lord's- day, that it is desirable as much as possible to avoid great markets on Saturday or Monday ? — Certainly ; and that has been one of the points to which the attention of the Church of Scotland has been directed from the very earliest times. With respect to the relaxation of discipline, do you attribute the fact to practices in the church courts, or the withholding on the part of the civil magistrate that assistance that it is presumed in former times was always afforded in aid of the church courts? — It may be ascribed partly to both causes ; but I think it necessary to observe, with regard to the relaxation of church discipline, that it has arisen very much from the altered circumstances of the times ; many of the usages which were thought very wholesome at a former period could scarcely in the present circumstances of society, be beneficially re- sorted to, and I own that I have some doubt with regard to the utility of some of those practices. But as far as it is necessary to enforce the Sabbath, do you not conceive that it is necessary that the civil power should come in in aid of the ecclesiastical jurisdiction ? — I conceive it to be very desirable. I scarcely think that so much efficacy can be expected from the exercise of the discipline of the Church, unless the civil power were to counte- nance and support the Church in this matter. That is to say, that although the Church may enforce its own rule, 41 Rev. Dr. Lee. with respect to the well-disposed of its congregation, the civil power must restrain the less well-disposed of the community at large from interfering with the religious liberty of those who are religiously dis- posed ? — Surely; and it is to be recollected that in former times, when the discipline of the Church was most strictly exercised, nearly the whole community was of the communion of the National Church ; but now the rules of discipline would be applicable only to such indi- viduals as continued in that communion, and consequently those who chose to place themselves beyond the pale of the jurisdiction of the Church could not be benefited by such regulations. But in large communities, such as Glasgow or Edinburgh, although dissenting bodies may enforce discipline upon their regular hearers, still it is to be supposed that there is a large mass of the population who belong to no denomination, whom it is peculiarly necessary for the law to keep under restraint ? — Yes ; and that is the chief evil which is now felt. Do you conceive that the provisions of the law of Scotland, with reference to the observance of the Lord's day, are sufficiently feared and supported by adequate penalties to effect their object r — No, I scarcely think so ; the penalties which at one time were quite suffi- cient, if they had been regularly exacted, have now become altogether inadequate to operate as a terror to evil-doers. Then you conceive that the terror which adequate penalties in- flicted is wanting in order to enable the civil magistrate to enforce those laws ? — Certainly ; in fact, in the case, for instance, of a pub- lican being fined for keeping his house open on the Lord's day, fined to the extent of a few shillings ; it is to be recollected, that by having his house open on that day his profits may often be ten times the amount of the fine, so that by paying this composition for a trans- gression of the law, he is, in a temporal point of view, considering himself as a great gainer. Then you conceive that it is in consequence of the inefficiency of the law, more than of the inefficiency of the administration of the law, that these evils have grown to their present height ? — No, I would not exactly say so ; because it is consistent with my knowledge that the law, even as it is, might operate to a considerable extent in checking abuses, if it were strictly administered. You conceive that the administration of the law is as much in fault, in reference to the growth of these evils, as the provisions of the law themselves? — I think it is so; but the difficulty of applying the law in cases of this kind is very considerable. The Committee must pro- bably be aware that when it is necessary that there shall be a prose- cution at the instance of the kirk-session, it is necessary to find wit- nesses ; the witnesses, in many cases, must consist of the very class of persons who were offenders to a certain extent, and it is very often difficult to obtain evidence. In short, whatever may be the chief cause of the defect, it is certainly found that the law is almost entirely useless in this respect. Do you consider that iiigher penalties and a stricter adminisirati'on of the law would receive the support of public opinion? — I think it wouldt a least receive the support of all those whose opinion is most Rev. Dr. Lee. 42 worth regarding. I am almost sure tliat a stricter enforcement of the existing law would be generally hailed by all right-hearted people. Sufficiently to become operative? — I think so; at the same time there is not the least doubt that if the newspapers continue in the tem- per which a great proportion of them have long manifested, much abuse will be lavished on all those who take an active part in enforcing the sanctification of the Sabbath by the exaction of any penalties. Do you, by the decline of scriptural education, allude to the depar- ture from the old Scottish system of making the Bible the first school- book ? — I allude to the partial cessation of the practice of making the Bible one of the books always read in the schools for the common branches of education. You are aware that in the poorer part of the country, or among the poorer members of a school, if there was no other book, the children had at least the Bible even to learn to spell upon ? — That does not come within my knowledge ; I am not aware of any part of the country in which no other book is used than the Bible; but I know that the common practice formerly was to begin to learn to read in the Shorter Catechism, then the Book of Proverbs, then the New Testament, and lastly the whole Bible. I never knew any children learn to read more rapidly than in that way. I was so taught myself. This method has many advantages. Children, instead of wasting their time in spelling unmeaning syllables, can, from the first, attach a signification to every sound. The sound is from the first moment a vehicle of important truth. Good principles are thus associated with the very dawn of tuition. With children who are thus taught, reading is not merely the preparation for acquiring future instruction through the medium of letters, it is all along the direct means of communicating sound and saving instruction, without any alloy of error. 1 hope I shall not be accused of wandering from the question, if I take this opportunity of remarking, that what has often been called the mother ivit of the people of Scotland had its origin in the practice of reading the Proverbs of Solomon, which formerly might well be called by every child in the Lowlands " the law of his mother,'' for the mother was for the most part the instructress, and it was quite practicable for a mother to super- intend this part of her children's education, without suspending the ordinary occupations of domestic industry : she could sew or knit, and at the same time hear her children read, without almost any risk of suffering a mistake to pass unnoticed, because the only books employed, the Old and New Testaments, were those with which her familiarity had been daily increasing, in consequence of the constant practice of reading a chapter morning and evening in family worship. It was equally impossible for her to suffer any blunder, in reading the Shorter Catechism, to pass undetected and unchallenged : this was the first book ; and though it is often alleged to be unintelligible to children, 1 know well from experience and long observation, that it is not unprO' fitable to have it indelibly imprinted on the memory. I have great satisfaction in remembering that the first lesson which I learnt was not a series of insignificant syllables or a string of idle words, but this great and fundamental principle, " Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him for ever." And the second was not less important j 43 llev. Dr. Lee. " The word of God, contained in tlie Old and New Testaments, is the only rule given to direct us liow we may glorify and enjoy Him." I do not know how mere prudential maxims or rules of morality can be satis- factorily and securely established otherwise than on the basis of Scrip- ture; but I hold it to be the first duty of every man wlio believes in Divine revelation, to impress on all his fellow-creatures the momentous ' principle which I have just recited, and which I think sufficiently in- telligible by a little child, that all the worth and happiness attainable in time, and all the hopes of eternal life, are gained by the knowledge and belief of the word of God. Has not the increase in the population greatly outgrown the legal provisions for religious instruction, and also for education in Scotland ? — Certainly; I have already stated that. To what do you peculiarly allude when you speak of the increased communication with England and Ireland f— I allude to the change of habits introduced by the mixture of that foreign population, as we have been accustomed to consider it. On this subject, may I be allowed to refer to a letter which I have just received ? This is from a person who has been in the practice of attending the police court in Edinburgh for the last 20 years, and of observing the change in the manners of the people. " In reference to the conversation I had with you on Wednesday, I have had no time to put my thoughts in a proper shape, in so detailed a manner as I could wish ; but as you wished me to write early, I shall, to the best of my power, narrate what occurs to my mind. About 20 years ago. Irishmen were compara- tively scarce in Edinburgh. About that period, all the menial offices of porters, water-carriers and such like, were performed by Highlanders ; since then the Irish have been gradually increasing, till now the Westport, Grassmarket, and Cowgate and adjoining closes are completely filled up with them. By this change I think the character, the moral character of the residenters in those districts has been entirely changed, certainly much to the worse : the scenes of drunkenness, and brutality which are to be witnessed almost every Sabbath morning, particu- larly in summer, can only be compared to Donnybrook Fair. I am not aware of any other district in which scenes of that nature occur, except perhaps the Canongate, about the head of St. Mary's Wynd. Tiie desire for ardent spirits among the poor, especially poor women, is most extraordinary. I have known individuals whose whole property was certainly not worth 10s. contrive to drink 4s. and 5s. worth of whiskey in a day, and do that for days together : how they came by the money nobody could divine : 24 or 30 glasses per day was no un- common quantity to be swallowed by those wretched creatures, while perhaps they would not eat a pennyworth of bread, and Sunday was generally the worst. In the course of attending the police court, I have always found, the fact is no- torious, that two-thirds of the business before the magistrates on Monday and Tuesday, arise from drunkenness between Saturday night and Monday morning ; between Saturday at 10 o'clock at night and Sunday morning when the churches go in, it frequently happens that 150 persons are carried to the police office, almost all for drunkenness. The Saturday night and Sunday morning offenders are worthless, unhappy creatures, who spend the greater part of their earnings then, and starve the remainder of the week. The Sunday night offenders are chiefly young men, who, after spending tlie Sunday in strolling about, land in a tavern at night, and subsequently in the watchhouse. I am inclined to think, however, that among tradesmen ale has in a great measure taken the place of whiskey ; that there is less whiskey consumed, I do not pretend to say, for its cheapness, since the reduction of duty, has assuredly induced many to increase the quantity of their potations; but there is no doubt that the quantity of ale Rer. Dr. Lee. 44 brewed now is far more than double what it was a few years ago. 1 am not aware of any specific fact that would show that Sabbath profanation has increased, but I know there is a much greater degree of laxity and want of respect for that day than formerly. I know of no persons who work at their professions on Sunday, save printers occasionally when the Courts are sitting, and law papers are required in a hurry. It occurs to me that the extreme poor are daily becoming more and more debased ; they have no regard for the Sabbath more than any other day. I need not tell you that although there are many who do not attend Divine worship, on the ground that seat-rents are high, there are great numbers who only think and use the Sabbath as a day to indulge in drinking." 1 have likewise a letter on the same subject from the sitting magistrate of the city of Edinburgh at this moment, who states that while the cases of outrages that came before his court throughout the week, are about 20 daily, on Monday last he had 30 cases ; he says that the ge- neral proportion on the Monday is perhaps nearly double. I will take leave, with the permiision of the Committee, to read part of his letter: " The sittings in the police court here have been much protracted during the last 12 months I have sat there, and profanation of the Lord's day is become truly alarming. The public-houses and gin-shops are opened on Sunday morning earlier than any other day, and the cases to be decided are generally doubled after a Sunday's debauch. The average number of cases through the week are about 20 daily : on Monday, the l6th, I had 50 cases; and on Monday, the 23d, I mean the present month, I had 35 ; and the half of the whole cases arise from the easy access of gin-shops, and the fighting that arises in consequence of intoxication. Last Sunday the patrole found 18 people, males and females, in one room, drinking from six o'clock in the morning to the time the church met, which the publicans say they are entitled to do, from the absurd way the Act of Parliament is worded, which states that they are not to keep their tippling shops open during Divine service : presuming that from 11 o'clock to one they cannot sell, they open at one, and are open till two ; shut at two, and open for the whole evening, the same as any other day. We punish them severely when we can convict; and although extremely careful in granting licences, knowing all the characters, yet from the wording of the Act, the poor people consider them- selves entitled to do that. An action was some time ago raised against a publican who refused to pay this fine, but the man died the day before the trial. We have taken up another to try to ascertain whether we can stop them at common law.," The writer of this letter is a man of great gentleness of disposition, but very much alive to the importance of protecting the interests of virtue and good order, by restraining all such offensive immoralities as he describes. Indeed, 1 liave generally found that the magistrates in Edinburgh are very anxious to do their duty in this respect. It oc» casionally happens that some of themselves are spirit-dealers or grocers, all of whom, I believe, are in the habit of taking out a spirit-licence. I do not allege that magistrates of this profession are less ready than others to check disorder, but I think people have a greater scruple in bringing complaints before them, from probably a mistaken apprehen- sion that they will be unwilling to execute the laws against their own customers. I think it is to be regretted that the same kind of licence is required for the most respectable grocers, and for people who keep the meanest dram-shops. I may here notice the great evil which is said to result from the almost unlimited number of spirit-shops in Scot- land. In some places they are said to be in the proportion of one to every 80 of the whole population, including women and children, or one to every 10 families. I know parishes in which I think the pro- portion must bo greater than this. In one long street in the suburbs 45 Rev. Dr. Lfe. of Edinburgli, along which I have often passed, I tliink tliere are five times more shops of this description tiian of ail others put together. In- deed, tliere are few others except for the sale of bread or snuff. In the spirit-shops other articles are also generally sold, such as butter, cheese, candles, soap, tea, sugar, and almost all kinds of grocery goods. This, I think, is attended with one disadvantage; people go into them without any shame, as the supposed object may be to purchase the necessaries of life: in some obscure streets all the articles of household consumption may be and often are purchased on Sunday; the shops are not glaringly open ; the shutters are probably closed, and the doors left scarcely perceptibly ajar ; but there is no inconsiderable traffic in some of them. One respectable grocer in my parish, who had occupied the same shop 30 years, left it about three years ago ; and the reason vvhicli he assigned for his departure was, that he had lost his business entirely. There had been progressively a great change in the cha- racter of the population. The houses formerly occupied by quiet mechanics and other sober people, became a tew years ago the abodes chiefly of Irish labourers, who, after receiving their wages on Saturday night, seldom come home till it is too late to find any shops open ; the consequence is, that most of them purchase their provisions and other articles on the Sunday. He mentioned to me two or three shop- keepers in the neighbourhood, who besides dealing in spirits, sold all sorts of groceries on Sunday, and had far more business that day than any other ; the people who dealt with them that day naturally got into the habit of dealing with them all other days; and thus he said he had no chance with his rivals in trade, because he would not keep open shop on Sunday. Some of these people were occasionally fined, but the amount of the tine probably did not amount to one-tenth of the profits realized by the transgression of the law. At the same time it is almost invariably observed that these persons are unprosperous ; their habits are never respectable, and they never can possess the confidence of well-disposed people ; but in the mean time they do incalculable mischief. The young in tlie neighbourhood are injured by seeing the Lord's day habitually treated with disrespect ; much disorder is also occasioned in the neighbourhood by the rioting which takes jdace. Persons who do not go to tippling-houscs, often do what is even more hurtful to their families, by sending their children to purchase spirits, which are drunk in their own houses in presence of their wives, child- ren, and other companions, all of whom are thus familiarized to scenes of profligacy, till they are past feeling, and soon become addicted to the same habits. It is to be recollected that these guilty excesses take place chiefly on that day which was mercifull}' appointed for the rest, refreshment, and improvement of rational beings ; and they are committed under the notice of those young and tender soids, who at the very moment when their parents should be training them for im- mortality, are heartlessly kept back from the comforts of this life and the hopes of the next, living without God in the world, whose worship they never see celebrated, and whose name they scarcely ever hiar, except in profane execrations and blasphemous oaths. These are some of the concomitants or consequences of keeping shops open on the Sabbath ; the practice is manifestly injurious to tiie com- Rev. Dr. Lee. 46 munity in another point of view, as it leads to many outrages, which add greatly to the burden of keeping up a police establishment, as well as to the expenses connected with the administration of criminal law. There were repeated cases of the murder of wives by their hus- bands last year in Edinburgh, which were perpetrated, I think, on the Sunday, and which arose out of the practice of Sunday dissipation. I cannot help saying that one of the cheapest and surest modes of es- tablishing a preventive police, would be to shut the doors of those mischievous haunts, which are so great a nuisance to all the pious and orderly inhabitants, and which along with innumerable other evils, occasion an enormous expense to the community. It is very hard, and surely not very equitable, that the virtuous should be faxed to a great amount, that the vicious may not be restrained from the liberty of sinning. Are you aware that an Act was passed in the present session in re- gard to the police of the city of Edinburgh ? — Yes. Are you aware of a particular clause in that Act, as regards the drinking of spirits, and keeping open public-houses on the Sabbath- day ? — lam. The moment I discovered that such a bill was in prepa- ration, I felt it my duty, in the capacity of convener, or chairman of a committee of the General Assembly on the subject of Sabbath pro- fanation, to communicate with the Lord Provost and the Sheriff of the county, and other authorities, on this clause, and the utmost length that the committee could bring them was to add a short sentence to the words which they had originally intended, and whicli appeared to us in some measure to legalize, or at least to countenance, the breach of the Sabbath at all other hours, excepting during the hours of public worship ; thus to secure the reservation of the observance of the old laws of Scotland upon this subject, and being apprehensive that if we insisted on more, we might not be able to obtain even this advantage, we were reluctantly compelled to acquiesce. You now hold a copy of the Act in your hand ? — Yes. Will you have the goodness to read the clause to v.'hich the Com- mittee has called your attention ? — The clause is as follows : " That if any person or persons who is or are licensed to sell ale, beer, or spirituous liquors, shall permit any breach of the peace, or riotous or disorderly conduct within the house, office, or premises occupied by him, her, or them for vending such liquors, or shall knowingly permit or suffer men or women of notoriously bad fame, or dissolute girls or boys, to assemble and meet therein, or shall permit or suffer any unlawful games therein, whereby the lieges may be cozened and cheated, or shall suffer any drinking or tippling within the house, office, or pre- mises occupied by him, her, or them during the hours of Divine service on Sun- days, or other days set aside for public worship by lawful authority, such person or persons, upon being lawfully convicted of any of the above ottences, upon a complaint at the instance of the superintendant of police, before the judge or judges officiating in the police court, shall be liable in a penalty not exceeding 10/. sterling, to be recovered in like manner as other penalties under this Act ; and the said judge is hereby authorized and empowered to ordain such person or persons to find security for their good behaviour for such length of time, not ex- ceeding 12 months, and to such extent, not being less than 10/. and not exceeding 50/. sterling, as shall be judged proper; and in the event of such caution not being found within a reasonable time, to be specified in the order, it shall be lawful to the said judge or judges to deprive such person or persons of their 47 Rev. Dr. Lee. licences; or if such person or persons shall suffer conviction more than once for any of tlie said offences, tlie said judge or judges shall in like manner, on the sub- sequent conviction, eitlier awo.rd the said tine, and order renewed security, or deprive such person or persons of tlieir licences, as may be judged proper; saving and reserving the rights of all persons to enforce the due observance and to prevent the profanation of the Sabbath-dut/ otherwise, according to the laws and practice of Scotland." The concluding words of the paragraph were added, in consequence of my remonstrances, aided by the co-operation of some other in- dividuals. Are you of opinion that if the penalty, stated in the Act referred (o, had extended to the entire of the Sabbath-day, it; might have been more beneficial than by limitinff, as it does, that penalty to the hours of Divine service, thereby making a marked distinction in regard to certain hours on tiie Sabbath-day, and leaving the rest of the day to be protected by the former statute laws? — Yes; but I think that transgressions of this kind ought to be visited not only with pecuniary fines, but with the entire forfeiture of licence. The effect of the addition to the clause in that Act, to which re- ference has been made, which, in consequence of your attention, and that of other gentlemen being brought to it, was so added, has been to leave the country very much as it was at the period of Mr. Home Drummond's Act? — Exactly as it was before the introduction of Mr. HomeDrummond's Act. Was not INIr. Home Drummond's Act, at the period when it was introduced, considered a novelty, inasmuch as it recognized what are called in England church hours? — Certainly it was; I believe, indeed 1 have been assured by Mr. Drummond, that it was not so intended by him, nor ought it to be interpreted so as to legalize the keep- ing open of taverns on the Sabbath ; but practically, the effect of it has been to induce magistrates and justices of the peace to act as if the law now authorized the keeping open of taverns and other places of entertainment during the greater part of the Sabbath. In point of fact, the distinction between church hours and other hours of the Sabbath-day, was formerly never contemplated in the Scotch Acts of Parliament? — I think not. The doctrine of the Church is, that the whole day is to be spent in the public and private exercises of God's worship, except so much as may be taken up in works of necessity and mercy. And the Acts of Parliament, generally at least, proceeded on the same principle. There was however, an additional penalty at one period imposed for absence from worship, and it was considered an aggravation of offences if they were com- mitted in the time of Divine worship. But nothing of the kind had reference to public houses, or trading of any kind ? — No, I think not. It is at the same time well known, that attempts were made by James I, in 1618, and by Charles 1, in 1633, not only to encourage the people of England to indulge in recreations, such as dancing, archery, and leaping, after Divine service, but to in- troduce similar sports and pastimes into Scotland, as a part of the pri- vileges of Sunday. In reality, it was by countenancing some of these vio- lations of decorum, that Charles 1, during his visit to Scotland in 1633, lost the affections and respect of the most virtuous of his subjects. Rev. Dr. Lre. 4S Is it your opinion that the greatly increased consumption of spirits in consequence of the low price at which they are sold, has been one means of bringing about Sabbath desecration in Scotland ? — Certainly ; and that is one of the causes of Sabbath profanation to which I intended particularly to advert, but which I have very transiently taken notice of. I ought to state, and I do it with the greatest confidence, that, according to my personal observation, the increase of immorality and misery, which supervened immediately on the reduction of the duty on spirits, was enormous. You stated, as one of the causes which had led, in your opinion, to the desecration of the Lord's day, the improved communications by land and by water; do you conceive that all such improved communi- cations necessarily lead to irreligious habits generally, and particularly to breaches of the Sabbath ? — I do not by any means think that such improved communication necessarily leads to that unfortunate result; but the fact is beyond all dispute, that such has been the case, as is sufficiently manifest in the case of steam vessels. I think, at the same time, that it might be possible to introduce regulations which would greatly abate, if not altogether prevent, those consequences which are so much to be deprecated. Have any and what steps been taken by the General Assembly, in reference to this important subject, the profanation of the Lord's day ? — On many occasions, the General Assembly have had their attention called to this subject. From the earliest times of the Church of Scot- land, many Acts of Assembly have been passed on this subject, and few years have passed without complaints concerning the profanation of the Sabbath being transmitted to the General Assembly by the in- ferior church courts ; but, as I suppose the question has reference to recent proceedings, I shall state, as briefly as I can, some particulars in which I have been personally concerned. At the quarterly meeting of the Commission of the General Assembly, in the beginning of March last, I made a motion, which having been unanimously agreed to, was embodied into the following resolution : — " The Commission of the General Assembly considering that, by the instruc- tions annually renewed by every successive Assembly, they are required to use their best endeavours for further reformation of manners, and the more effectual curbing and suppressing of profaneness and vice, and promoting true religion and godliness, and having great reason to appreliend that, among other lament- able instances of defection from the pious and exemplary character by which this country was distinguished in former times, there have of late years been many indications of a growing disrespect for the solemnity of the Lord's day, and that to this too prevalent habit, accompanied as it generally is by intemperance in various forms, may be traced a great proportion of the crimes which have to so alarming an extent outraged the peace of society, and brought reproach on the national character and profession of Christianity, did and do hereby appoint the following members a committee to take this subject into their serious and deliberate consideration ; directing them to collect information by corresponding with Pres- byteries or otherwise, as they shall find most practicable, and to communicate to the next General Assembly the result of their inquiries, with a recommendation of the remedies which may occur to themselves, or which may be suggested by others, as most likely to prove effectual in checking this increasing evil; and the Commission further considering how much it may tend to promote the object which they have at heart, to be favoured with the countenance and co-operation 49 Her. Dr. Lee. of the Lord High Commissioner, hereby speoiully aiitliorizeund instruct tlie com- mittee to adopt the most prudent method of holding communications on this sub- ject witli the nobleman who may be nominated to represent his Majesty in the next General Assembly." In the course of a ^gw days after the rising of the Commission, the following circular was dispatched to the clerk of every presbytery: — " Edinl)urgh, March 13, 1832- " Sir, — The Commission of the General Assembly, at the last quarterly diet on the 7th instant, considering that, by the instructions annually renewed,' they are required to ' use their best endeavours for further reformation of manners, and the more effectual curbing and suppressing of profaneness and vice, and promoting true religion and godliness,' and having great reason to apprehend that there has of late years been a growing disrespect for the solemnity of the Lord's day, and tliat to this too prevalent habit, accompanied, as it generally is, by intemperance in various forms, may be traced a great proportion of the cri:nes which have to so alarming an extent outraged the peace of society, and brought reproach on the national character, and the profession of Christianity, appointed a committee to take this subject into their serious consideration, directing the members to collect information, by corresponding with Presbyteries or otherwise, as they shall find most practicable, and to communicate to the next General Assembly the result of their inquiries, with a recommendation of the remedies which may occur to themselves, or which may be suggested by others, as most likely to prove effectual in checking this increasing evil. " At a meeting of the Committee held this day, it vi'as agreed to transmit a circular to the several Presbyteries of the Church, for the purpose of obtaining a complete view of the facts and circumstances which are most worthy of the notice of the General Assembly. " It is probably unnecessary to remind you, that many occasions and forms of Sabbath profanation have been enumerated and censured in Acts of former As- semblies ; such as the keeping of markets on Saturday and Monday ; the vvant of Divine service in the afternoon ; fishing (particularly salmon-fishing) ; the going of salt-pans, mills and kilns; driving of cattle; hiring of shearers; carrying of goods ; using merchandize ; frequenting of taverns or alehouses ; gaming ; un- necessary travelhng, and beginning of voyages on the Lord's day. " Most of these offences have been prohibited under heavy penalties by various Acts of Parliament; particularly by the Acts, James 6. Pari 6. c. 70; James 6. Pari. 13. c. 159; James 6. Pari. 12. c. 122; James 6. Pari. 14. c 198; Cha. 2. Pari. 1. sess. 1. c. 18 ; Cha. 2. Pari. 1. sess. 3. c. 19 ; Cha.2. Pari. 2, sess. 3. c. 22 ; W. & M. Pari. 1. sess. 2. c. 25 ; W. & M. Pari. 1 . sess. 5. c. 13 and 14: and when the late President Blair (while solicitor-general) was consulted on this subject by a committee of the General Assembly in 1794, he stated, after referring to some of these statutes, that ' there appears to be no defect in the law as it stands, if duly executed ; and the power of enforcing execution is lodged with the church judicatories themselves.' This opinion (with extracts of several Acts) was subjoined to an admonition published that year in name of the General Assembly. On various occasions since that period, the Assembly has given ad- vice to Presbyteries, complaining of particular forms of Sabbath profanation. But still there is reason to fear that the offence prevails to a much greater e.xtent than formerly. " You are requested to lay this letter before the Presbytery at their next ordi- nary meeting, \\\?X they may take the earliest opportunity of returning to the convener of this committee such a statement of facts as may enable him to pre- pare, for the consideration of the next General Assembly, a representation on this important subject. " The queries which the Presbytery are especially requested to answer, are the following : — " 1. What are the principal forms in which the profanation of tlie Lord's day prevails within vour bounds ? No. vin. ' D Jlev. Dr. Lee. 50 " 2. Does this sin appear to have become more or less prevalent since the commencement of this century ? " 3. What appear to have been the effects of the increased facilities of travel- ling in producing Sabbathprofanation? " 4. Has any chance in this respect been produced by the Act lowering the duty on spirituous liquors, and'by the Act 15th July 1828, intituled, * An Act to regulate the granting of Certificates, by Justices of the Peace and Magistrates, authorizing Persons to keep common Inns, Alehouses and Victualling-houses in Scotland,' &c. " 5. What influence does Sabbath profanation appear to have had on the in- crease of pauperism, disease, and crime? " 6. What would the Presbytery suggest as the most prudent and effectual means for remedying the abuses in question ? " Hoping to be favoured with an answer before the first day of the next Ge- neral Assembly. " I am, &c. " Jo/m Lee, Convener of the Committee." To this circular I receivtd 47 returns: that is, a return from about five-eighths of the Presbyteries in Scotland; some of which, as they meet less frequently than others, had not sufficient time for preparing satisfactory answers, so as to be laid before the meeting of the last General Assembly on the 17th of May. The contents of many of these communications wei-e highly important, and I am strongly in- clined to think, that if 1 were not discouraged by the expense of con- ducting so extensive a correspondence, I could procure, by writing to all the individual ministers of churches and chapels in Scotland, amounting to more than 1,000, a still more valuable body of evidence, and many suggestions of great practical utility, vvhich may not always occur to the limited proportion of the members of a presbytery, to whose hands the preparation of such documents as official reports may happen to be committed. I am sorry that I have not here a complete copy of the Report which was laid before the General Assembly, and approved ; indeed, it was far from being a complete exposition of the subject, for the returns were sent in for the most part during the sitting of the Assembly, and it was found impracticable to do full justice to so difficult and moment»iUS a question; the committee was therefore reappointed, with instructions to correspond again with the Presby- teries, who were enjoined to return answers at least a month before the meeting of the next General Assembly. The following is an abstract of the Report, on the most material of the answers to the queries : — " I. In by far the greater number of returns it is stated with much concern that the evil has reached an alarming magnitude. The forms in which it is said chiefly to prevail in populous places, are the following: the general neglect of Divine ordinances, and various abuses connected with this neglect (such as wandering in the fields, meeting together in public-houses, large parties of young people for various amusements, bathing openly and offensively in fine weather, plundering of field produce while the farmers are at church, forming parties for skaiting on the ice in winter, meeting together in each other's houses for gossip and tippling); giving and receiving party dinners; allowing domestic servants to visit their friends and spend the afternoon of the Sabbaths in joining parties of amusement ; the hiring of coaches without necessity to go to church in towns, and thus preventing the hackney-coachmen from ever having an opportunity of being in the forenoon or afternoon diets of worship within the walls of the House of God : the employment of various kinds of vehicles, particularly about watering- places ; sailing of boats and steam vessels, and merchant ships leaving the har- 51 Rev. Dr. Lee. hours ; waiting on the floating of timber down rivers ; the keeping going of print- ing presses on the Sabbath : tlie payment of wa^es in one or two places mentioned in the returns; the driving, and occasionally the private sale of cattle and sheep, especially in the neighbourhood of towns wliere markets are held on Monday ; in some parishes where iron works have been established, the smelting of iron, and oilier chemical manufactories ; the fishing of salmon, &.c. " II. It appears that the practice of Sabbath profanation has been making pro- gress for half a century past, but of late with fearful rapidity. " III. On the facilities of travelling, which have promoted >abbath profanation, the returns mention chiefly the increased number of mail-coaches running on that day, and tiie sailing of steam vessels late on Saturday, and partially also on the Sabbath. " I\'. The effect of the lowering of the duty on spirits has been generally very mischievous over the whole country, by increasing to an enormous extent the quantity of spirits used, especially among the lower classes of society, leading to the grossest forms of Sabbath profanation. Several reports represent the change as having been beneficial in the Ili^ihlaitds, but on this point the opinions express- ed are not unanimous. The effect of the .\ct 1828 has not universally attracted the notice of Presbyteries, but in many places it is said to have led to increased abuses, by inducing the civil authorities to dechne interfering, lest they should be found to have exceeded their powers. " V. On the influence of Sabbath profanation, in leading to tlie increase of pauperism, disease, and crime, the returns contain many very affecting and im- pressive representations. The following is one of the most moderate and qualified of the answers to this inquiry : ' It were perhaps difficult to trace directly to Sab- bath-breaking any particular cases of pauperism, disease, or crime, but that all of them are often found in connexion witli the neglect of the Sabbath duties, is well known. The want or weakness of naoral principle, shown by Sabbath profanation and the idling habits connected with it, must tend to the diminution of those energies on which health, industry, and virtuous character depend. The desertion of public worship prevents the most invigorating and rectifying applications of moral sentiment ; hence an increased exposure to pauperism, disease, and crime ; though it might be difficult to estimate the precise extent to which the augmenta- tion of these evils is referable to Sabbath profiination. That they have increased is without all donbt.' Others of the returns contain irresistible demonstration of the melancholy fact, that poverty, debility of constitution, and various forms of disease as well as general depravity of character, many guilty excesses and re- volting crimes, spring f;om this source. The following statement is taken from one of the returns on this head : ' Many of our parish paupers are persons who were not in the regular habit of attending Divine ordinances. It has been found by calculation, that the ordinary collection made by a common labourer, who regularly attends church daily 20 years, will do more than pay his share of the aliment required by the poor, even allowing double that which is usually granted ; so that supposing all the inhabitants of a parisii to be common labourers, but re- gularly to attend Divine ordinances 20 years, their collection alone would do more than aliment all the paupers of the parisli at double the ordinary rate of aliment ; and as in some of our parishes there are few dissenters, our poor's roll will show how closely connected the neglect of Divine ordinances and pauperism are. In many cases disease is the immediate etiect of habits connected with Sabbath pro- fanation, but its influence will be especially found in aggravating the condition of the poor when overtaken with sickness. The criminal calendar abundantly proves the influence of Sabbath profanation in producing crime; and we have it fully in our power to testify, that the same influence is at work in leading to crimes which do not usually find a place in such records.' " VI. A variety of important suggestions for promoting a better observance of the Sabbath have been returned by Presbyteries, of which it has bet-n impossible for the committee to form any mature opinion; but if reanpointe 1, they hope next year to be able to give a full report." Rev. Dr. Lee. 52 If is proper for me to state, that I must individually benr the chief blame of the meagreness of this Report; but as an extenuation of its defects, I may plead the multitude of other laborious duties, which, during the sitting of the last Assembly, devolved on me; and still more, the severity of some family distresses which engrossed every moment which 1 could spare from public business. I may add, how- ever, that even at that period of bustle and anxiety, I had it in my power to communicate a {aw particulars not immaterial, which had been overlooked in all the returns. The great difficulty which we felt was in proposing practical remedies. What means have occurred to you to counteract those evils to which reference has been made? — I would be disposed to distribute the remedies of the evil into two classes, ecclesiastical and civil ; and although the ecclesiastical means do no! come particularly under the notice of this Committee, I might probably not do sufficient justice to the subject if I were not briefly to enumerate some of them. Have you any statement of your ideas upon that subject which you can put in ? — I have a ^ew notes, which tliough abruptly and hastily thrown togetlier, may possibly furnish hints capable of being matured and improved by those who have turned their attention to the subject, and who have leisure to prosecute it. I have already stated that I would be inclined to arrange the remedial measures under two heads, ccclcxiaslical and civil, or more properly, spiritual and secular ; terms somewhat mure comprehensive than those which I have employed in answer to a former question ; for several of the means which may be descril)ed as spiritual are such as may be employed without the inter- vention of church authority ; and in the same manner some of the means which are rather secular than spiritual, are within the reach of individuals who derive neither countenance nor aid from the civil power. I. 1. Under the great division of spiritual means, I would assign the first rank to the important obligations imposed on all Christians of promoting the religious education of youth. I have already anticipated some of the remarks on this topic, which I might have reserved for this stage of the inquiiy. Impressed, as I am, with the firmest belief in Divine revelation, I must avow myself to be thus precluded from recognizing as of any substantial v^tlue all such pretensions to either wisdom or worth as are not associated with the primary duty of piety. Instead, therefore, of feeling myself entitled to admit tliat the incul- cation of religious principle should be postponed to the communication of general knowledge, I dare hold no doctrine inconsistent with this, that the " fear of God is the beginning of wisdom." I am not so extravagant as to assume it as an axiom that this piinciple of itself lays the foundation of all human knowledge ; but certainly no branch of human knowledge is entitled to take precedency of it; and if it were only on the principle of economising time and labour, I would say that the great elements of religion ought to be communicated simultaiicously with the earliest subjects of tuition. If they are deferred, it is too possible that, in the uncertainty of human life, tliey may be found to have been altogether omitted when life comes to a close. If it is an indispensable duty to labour to convert those who err from the truth, it must equally be a duty to prevent them from going astray ; and this cannot be done eflectually without laying as soon as pos- sible tlie foundation of good principle. Eyery Christian is bound to do good to all as lie has opportunity ; and he who has the oppoitunity and the capacity of contributing by instruction, example, or influence, to the spiritual welfare of others, ought to consider what reason he can render for neglecting the cultivation 53 Heu. Dr. Lee. of tliis talent, which w,is given not that it might be buried till a more convenient season of occupying it, but that he might be instant in season and out of season in turning it to a beneficial account. If this duty be incumbent on s^ery man, much more is it imperatively demanded of those who are invested with spiritual functions; and in a Church like that of Scotland, possessing the legal right of superintending schools, it is pre-eminently binding. The experience of the good which has been done in this way through the instrumentality of the ministers of the Church of Scotland in former times, may well be expected to operate as a powerful inducement to renew and enlarge their endeavours. It is a most grati- fying reflection, that the benefits of a sound education so long enjoyed by the people; of Scotland, may be traced originally to the Christian zeal and activity of the ministers, at a time when they had to contend with difficulties greater than any wliich now exist ; and it is not apprehended that the present race of ministers will shrink from a labour which may be expected to produce such happy results. The other spiritual attentions I shall only briefly enumerate : they are as follow : — 2. Frequent and faithful preaching on the duty of sanctif}ing the Sabbath, par- ticularly at seasons where in particular districts the temptations to otfend in this point are known to abound. 3. Occasional pastoral addresses from church courts, particularly from the General Assembly. 4. Revival of the most salutary rules of church discipline, some of which have fallen into disuse, not because there has been any indisposition on the part of the Church to enforce them, but because it has been thought that many of them have become inapplicable to the altered circumstances of society; iome of them at least might be new modelled, and rendered obligatory on all persons in com- munion with the Church. 5. In conjunction with the regidar visitation of parishes and congregations by ministers and elders, a duty which even when most laboriously performed has sometimes little apparent effect on those who require it the most, it might be earnestly recommended to all ministers to seek every prudent occasion not only of reproving and warning the disorderly, but of admonishing privately, and in the spirit of meekness, such parents and masters as appear to be most in danger of neglecting their duty, both to exemplify it in their practice, and to exercise their authority over their children and dependents, so as to restrain diem from every invasion on the serenity and sanctity of the Lord's day, and to engage them in the due observance of this reasonable service, not by repulsive strictness or harsh reproofs, or the execution of difficult tasks, but rather by associating religious exercises with peaceful enjoyments, and giving practical proofs of their pleasantness and profitableness, as contributing at once to temporal comfort, and to the eternal safety of die soul. 6. Among the attentions required of ministers may be included their co-operation with the civil authorities in promoting such means as havie formerly been found most efficient in securing the solemnity of the day of rest. But under this head I would suggest, that though no good man can feel himself warranted to plead for tlie impunity of obstinate ofi'enders, tiie influence of a clergyman may generally be expected to be most beneficially felt rather as endeavouring to super- sede, or at least to soften, than to enforce the rigour of penal inflictions. 7. I may take notice of Sabbath schools, not for teaching ordinary branches of learning, but merely for religious instruction. In no case whatever would I re- commend any children to be sent to them whose parents are able and willing to instruct them at home. Passing by some means of a mixed character, such as associations for promot- ing Sabbath observance, and temperance societies, which I have no doubt are capa- ble of being so conducted as to produce good effects, but of which I will not venture to express any other than a qualified opinion, I proceed to notice, 11. The secular remedies, or such as, though not universally requiring legislative interference, cannot bp applied without the aid of wealth or power, or some con- ventional regulations. Rev. Dr. Lee. 54 1. The first whicli I would mention is additional church accommodation, ac- companied, in some cases, with increased provision for the religious education of youth. 2. The prevention of public conveyances, and particularly the sailing of vessels. There is a difficulty here with regard to mail-coaches and mail-packets, but even this I think might be surmounted in a great measure without any real inconveni- ence to the public. There is more difficulty m preventing unnecessary travelling in private carriages 3. The change of markets, which are found to lead to much travelling and bustle or occasional traffic on the previous or succeeding Sabbath. 4. The entire prohibition of all traffic on the Sabbath, and particularly the shutting up of all taverns, victualling houses, or other places of entertainment, which are not bona fide indispensable for the accommodation of travellers and lodgers; or for the moderate refreshment of persons coming from a distance to attend Divine service at their usual places of worship. It is not however to be expected that any laws against such breaches of the Sabbath will ever be impar- tially administered, unles? a vigorous restraint be put on all those violations of de- corum which are said to be committed by frequenting club-houses and gaming- houses, establishments which, though they may be called private, are notoriously founded on a principle incompatible with the due observance of the Fourth Commandment, and which are very generally considered as having set an example of desecration, which has been too fatally co()ied by the lower orders. .5. The payment of wages at otiier times than Saturday night. 6. The discontinuance of the performances of military bands, and all unne- cessary parades on Sunday. It must be obvious that some of the means here enumerated could not be rendered effectual without penal sanctions. On this point I must acknowledge that I feel considerable difficulty. I question the efficacy of pecuniary fines^ and of such penalties as are attended with disgrace or pers nal restraint. Indeed, the old practice of confining offenders, I cannot but suppose must have often tended to harden them, in the same manner as imprisonment in bridewells and houses of correction for other offences has been often found to do. If there are to be fines, 1 think it would be desirable, that while they operate primarily for the terror of the evil-doers^ their ultimate destination should be for the benefit of those who do well. Let them, for instance, be appropriated entirely to the purposes of pro- viding church accommodation for the well-disposed poor, and edu- cation for their children. If every man who chooses not only to forego the privilege of attending religious ordinances himself, but so to profane the Sabbath as to interrupt the devotions of others, and to render it necessary at a great charge to the public to pur- chase the means of restraining and correcting breaches of the peace, it is not unreasonable that he and his fellow-workers should bear the burden arising from the evil which is thus occasioned. If a man insists on working on the Sabbath, the day which God has appropriated to himself, let the law decide that his whole earnings, how great soever they may be, must invariably be applied to the support of the public institutions of religion, and the propensity to Sabbath-breaking would be greatly counteracted. Few men have such an inordinate passion for labour as to prefer it to rest, if it is not likely to secure for them some eventual gain or indulgence. In 55 liev. Dr. !.re. like mauuer, if a man prefers carnal amusement to spiritual instruc- tion, at the same time interfering with the lull exercise of the sacred duties and privileges of his fellow- creatures, let the State convert the penalty imposed on him into a compensation (as far as possible) for the mischief which he has been doing to society; and it is to be hoped that if those, who to their almost inevitable ruin ai'e familia- rized to profane and profligate habits, are not altogether past feel- ing, they will be at last shamed into decency, and that finding themselves restrained from doing mischief, they will at least try the experiment of learning to do well. I am disposed to think that when all the benevolent assiduities which can be exercised by a vigilant pastoral superintendence fail, and when the firm but temperate warnings addressed by magistrates to first offenders are soon forgotten, it would be desirable that a register of the names of all such offenders shovdd be preserved, and, after a certain number of repetitions, published. In conclusion, let it be seriously considered, whether, in a nation professedly Christian, those who, instead of trying to exalt it by their righteousness, bring reproach on it by their presumptuous sins, committed with a high hand in defiance of the wrath of God, and with utter disregard of the good of man, should be permitted to possess those immunities, which (highly as they have been esti- mated as the birthright of British subjects) can never be exercised beneficially to the State by those who have the folly to act as if the declared will of Heaven might be habitually set at nought, and as if human society could be permanently bound together without main- taining a stedfast respect for the forms and institutions, as well as the power, of religion. I am fully aware of the general prevalence of an idea, that as the offices of piety cannot be extorted by compulsory law, so as to prove beneficial either to him who performs them or to his fellow- creatures, it would be a departure from the fair province of human legislation to prescribe authoritative regulations for the performance of religious duties, or to interfere at all in such matters. But if this principle were to be carried to its full extent, it is difficult to perceive how it would be possible to secure the enjoyment of reli- gious privileges to those who regard them as the chief constituents of the happiness of life. It is the undoubted right of every man to worship God according to his conscience ; but many might be precluded from the possession of this right, if it were not to be in some measure protected by the laws. A poor man, though firmly convinced that the Sabbath ought to be sanctified, by resting en- tirely from the secular pursuits and recreations which are lawful on other days, and by devoting the whole time to the exercises of devotion, the contemplation of Divine truth, and the enjoyment of Christian fellowship, might find, that unless he would consent to work on the Sabbath as on other days, he must lose his employment altogether. Choosing to obey God rather than man, he might be dismissed by an inconsiderate or infidel mastei-, and he might be told, that by his disobedience he had forfeited all claim to a cer- tificate of character. But even persons in comparatively inde- Utv, Dr. Lee. 56 pendent circumstances might have their right of enjoying the rest of the Sabbath materially abridged, or almost nullified, by the per- versity of turbulent neighbours, if there should be no tribunal before which a complaint might be brought. They might be in- cessantly disturbed by noisy labour or boisterous merriment ; and while their personal tranquillity was thus interrupted by a succes- sion of intolerable annoyances, they might have the mortification of observing that their children, whom they are anxious to train up with a veneration for sacred things, have become so familiarized to profanity, as to be in danger of having every serious impression obliterated from their minds ; and yet for this most grievous injury, so subversive of their comfort and so cruelly destructive of their fondest hopes, is it reasonable to say that the civil power must be excused for refusing to yield any redress ? It would indeed be a mistaken policy to enforce attendance on public worship (and under this mistaken view of public duty, oppression has some- times been exercised in former times) ; but there can be no danger of going too far, in providing that nothing shall be done on the Lord's day calculated either to outrage the repose of private fami- lies, or to frustrate the reasonable expectation of every man, how- ever humble in station, that he shall be allowed without distraction to avail himself of the stated opportunities of attending public worship. It is not to be expected that by mere legislative acts a nation will be rendered religious and moral ; but it may at least be expected, that no lawgivers or judges, professing to be actuated by Christian principles, will ever venture to dispense with the eternal obligations of the express law of God ; and if it be alleged that it is superfluous to reinforce the institutions of Heaven by any ordi- nance of man, because the resources of Divine Providence are in themselves sufticient to vindicate the cause of truth and righ- teousness, it ought to be recollected, that in the ordinary course of Providence the affairs of the world are conducted by the instrumen- tality of human means ; and as power, like every other talent, ought to be exercised with a view to the advancement of the Divine honour and the best interests of humanity, those who possess this instru- ment of doing good are peculiarly bound to consider, that " to whom much is given, of them much shall be required." The evidence of John Bridges, Esq. of Edinburgh , Writer to the Signet, who was likewise examined, wax in entire agreement with the /ore- going. LONDON: Printed by Ellerlnii ^ Henderson, Gough Square, FOR THE Sortfty for ^ronioting lf)r irne #bscrbancc of i^c iLorO'fisISay ; ANIJ SOLO By Messrs. Hivi.sGTON, St. Paul's Chuich-yard and Waterloo Place; by Messrs. Skm.ky, Fleet Street; by Messrs. H,\icfiAUD, Piccadilly ; by Mr. Nisbet, Berners Street ; and at the above-named Society's Office, 12 Exeter Hall, Strand. Price 4il. each, or !?8s. per hundred. Princeton Theological Semmary-Speer Library 1 1012 01003 2458 ii:«