PRINCETON, N. J. Presented by Mr. William A. Wheelock of New York City, BX 5455 .W5 V. 12 Whately, Richard, 1787-1863 Works . . . CHARGES OTHER TRACTS. BY RICHARD WHATELY, D.D. ARCHBISHOP OF DUBLIN. LONDON: B. FELLOWES, LUDGATE STREET. MDCCC XXXVI. LONDON : r, clav, printer, bread-stkekt-hili., doctors' commons. htc. c:g ^^^^ THEOLOGIO&L ADVERTISEMENT, With the exception of the Sermon on behalf of the Association, all the Tracts in this Volume have been already published, at various tiines, as separate pamphlets. But some persons having expressed a wish to see them collected into a uni- form volume, I have reprinted them, with the addition of a few notes and insertions. The several Tracts are arranged, as far as that was possible, in reference to the subject matter, rather than to the order of time, Palack, Dun LIN, March, 183G. CONTENTS. PAGE A Charge delivered to the Clergy of Dublin in June, 1834 1 Notes 27 A Charge delivered to the Clergy of Dublin, in July, 1835 33 Note 59 Address to the Clergy of Dublin on Confirmation, in August, 1832 63 Note 77 Address to the Clergy of Dublin on Confirmation, in 1834 79 vi CONTENTS. PAGE Address to the Inhabitants of Dublin and its Vicinity, respecting the Lord's Day 09 Address of the Clergy of Dublin 120 National Education in Ireland 125 Prefatory Notice 127 Reply to the Memorial of the Dean and Chapter of St. Patrick's 135 Reply to a Memorial from the Clergy of Derry . 151 Reply to the Address of the Clergy of Dublin . . 154 Memorial 199 Address of the Clergy of Dublin 201 Memorial of the Clergy of Derry 209 Observations of the Bishops 212 Appendix and Notes 217 Appeal in behalf of the Association incorporated for Discountenancing Vice, &c 229 Sermon in behalf of the Association .... 239 Tithes in Ireland 261 Prefatory Notice 263 Minutes of Evidence taken before the Select Com- mittee of the House of Lords 2G5 Notes 415 CONTENTS. vii PAGE On the Jews' Relief Bill 419 Preface to the First Edition 421 A Speech in the House of Lords, August 1, 1833, on a Bill for the Removal of certain Disabilities from his Majesty's subjects of the Jewish per- suasion 427 Additional Remarks 446 Observations made on presenting a Petition to the House of Lords from the Clergy of the Diocese of Kildare, relative to Church Reform, August 7, 1833 503 Appendix 518 A CHARGE DnilVHRED AT THE PRIMARY VISITATION OF THE CLERGY OF THE DIOCESES OF DUBLIN AND GLANDELOUGH, IN JUNE 1834. *A\r}Ot{)ovT£g £v aycnry. — Eph. iv. 15. B A C H A R G MY REVEREND BRETHREN, If I were to set before you a lively picture of the various dangers and difficulties to which the Church is at this time exposed,* earnestly exhorting you, on that ground, to extraordinary efforts, and to redoubled zeal, vigilance, and caution, though I should, in this, be going over the mere common-places of an episcopal charge, yet no one, I think, could deny that such topics are not only suitable, but especially appropriate to the present crisis. Often as we have been told, formerly, of our lot being cast in perilous and trying times, and of * See " Evidence," in the subsequent part of this volume. B 2 4 FIRST CHARGE. the consequent call for increased exertions on the part of the ministry, the time is now at least arrived, when every one, I think, will be ready to admit, that all this may be urged with more reason than at any former period ; at least for more than a century past. Not that this implies any censure of our predecessors, as having ex- aggerated the evils and the perils of their own times. It may have been true, that those times presented a more alarming aspect than any former period, though evils still more formidable may threaten our own. But though the dangers, both external and internal, which now beset the Church to which we belong, are so manifest that I should not have any fear of being reckoned an alarmist, were I to dwell very strongly on them, this very circumstance makes it superfluous to do so. It is unperceived evils — unforeseen dangers — that men need to be warned against : and if I could suppose any of you to regard the present aspect of affairs with confident security, or care- less apathy, I should not expect that such a man would be roused from it by any thing I could urge. FIRST CHARGE. 5 Still less is it my design to set before you a view of the ministerial duties generally, and urge you to the zealous and faithful discharge of them, in continual remembrance of the solemn account you will have to render to the Chief Shepherd," in reference both to your private lives, and to the sacred office you have under- taken. It is to be hoped you have thought much and deeply of these things, before you received Holy Orders ; and that familiarity has not weakened the impression of such thoughts, since; but that what were good resolutions, will have ripened into practical good habits. But to any one who is insensible of such obligations as we lie under, or careless as to his own fulfilment of them, I am convinced that mere general exhortations to conscientious diligence, must always be ad- dressed in vain. And to those, again, who are habitually and practically impressed as they ought to be, with a sense of their duties, all such general exhortations are unnecessary. Accord- ingly, any one precise and specific suggestion, even as to the most minute point, is of more value, if it contain any truth at all, than whole 6 FIRST CHARGE. volumes of vague, general, declamatory exhor- tations, however eloquent : because this latter is a kind of advice which no one can, strictly speaking, be said to folloxv ; even though his conduct should, in fact, coincide with it. And here, therefore, I will avail myself of the opportunity to offer, in passing, a brief hint as to the composition of sermons. Those who are sincerely desirous of producing a practical* good effect on their hearers, and who are not deficient in powers of thought or of expression, are some- times misled as to what is practical ; that is, what is really capable of producing an effect. If our hearers not only perfectly understand what we say, but also are in fact interested by it, and if they are capable of so thinking, an.d feeling, and acting, as we exhort them to do ; and if, moreover, many of them display such a character as we recommend, we are in danger of at once concluding from this, that our discourses are practical, and that our advice has been fol- lowed : and yet it may possibly have been such, as in fact neither did, nor could, produce any * See Note A. at the end of this Charge. FIRST CHARGE. 7 effect whatever. It may have been such as no one, strictly speaking, follows, except by acci- dent. Of two persons who, without any concert or connexion, chance to be travelHng the same road, one may, accidentally, be following the other ; but not in the sense of being led by him, and following him as a guide. And it is only in the same accidental sense that any one can be said to follow any advice that consists of such vague and general exhortations, and descriptions of duty, as do indeed coincide with his conduct, but could have had no effect in producing it. He who should bid the husbandman bestow suitable tillage on his land, and sow the proper seeds, at the right seasons, without specifying what IS suitable, and proper, and right, in each case, would manifestly produce no effect; be- cause there is no one sufficiently skilful and industrious to ai^ply such general precepts, who would not have dispensed with them altogether. And, in like manner, if a bishop in addressing the clergy, or they, their congregations, set before them merely such general precepts of Christian wisdom, and Christian virtue, as those alone have the ability and the will to (tpply. 8 FIRST CHARGE. whose head and heart would have led them to the very same course, had those precepts never been delivered — it is plain that while we flatter ourselves we are delivering practical discourses, we shall be producing no effect whatever.* We should ask ourselves on each occasion, not merely whether it is possible for a person to do, or be, or feel, what we recommend, but also whether our recommendations are so far defi- nite, and specific, that it is possible some result may take place, (in those who are willing to listen to us,) in consequence of what we say, and which might have not equally taken place without our suggestion. I will take this occasion, at the risk perhaps of being thought by some to violate the very rule just given, to suggest to you, (what, how- ever obvious, we are perpetually tempted to overlook,) that the external condition of any church in respect of temporal prosperity or adversity, must not be confounded with its spiritual condition. A church may be (and this in fact has often happened) at once in a * See Note B. at the end of this Charge. FIRST CHARGE. 9 flourishing, and in a decaying state, in reference to these two points respectively. Now we all must be sensible that, as Chris- tians, we ought at least to feel anxious for the safety and prosperity of the Establishment, with a view — and only with a view — to its utility in promoting Christian know^ledge and Christian virtue : — that the temporal welfare, in short, of the Church, is the means, and its spiritual efficiency, the end. And in all cases men are prone to blend together in their minds the means and the end, even when these are not inseparable. In the present case, we know with what triumphant activity the cause of evangehcal truth was advancing, in the early churches, while the Apostles and their followers were, outwardly, depressed, despised, and persecuted ; and would have been, had they in this world only had hope in Christ, of all men most miserable." On the other hand, our own Church, to go no further, was, before the Reformation, at the highest pitch of earthly splendour, wealth, and power; though inwardly and spiritually in the 10 FIRST CHAKGE. most wretched state of languor and decay. When she said, " I have hecome rich, and have need of nothing, she knew not that she was wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." With regard, then, to the temporal condition of our Church — the Establishment, considered as such, and merely in reference to its external welfare — the discussion of questions pertaining to this subject, would be so far of a political character, as not to be the most suitable to the present occasion. I will only remark, that I really believe the very best thing that can be done — at least, the best that can be done by us — with a view to the safety and permanence of the Establishment — is, to use in every way our utmost exertions to give it efficiency — to make it both to appear, and to be, a useful institution — worthy of public confidence and protection, as being of substantial benefit to the nation, in the inculcation of the knowledge and practice of religion : and that, of such religion as, by its fruits, may command the respect and esteem even of those who have little or nothing of religious feeling themselves. For the fruits FIRST CHARGE. 11 of truly evangelical religion can be in a great degree estimated, (as the Apostles themselves testify,) even by those who have little or no knowledge or care about the tree that produces them. It is thus that " by well-doing, (says the Apostle Peter,) ye may put to silence the igno- rance of foolish men ; that whereas they speak against you as evil-doers, they may glorify God on account of your good works which they shall see." If such conduct on our part should fail to preserve our institutions, it will at least prove that they merit preservation ; and whatever events it may please Providence to bring about — should even disaster and temporal ruin await the Establishment — those of us who shall thus have laboured to arrest that ruin, will not have laboured in vain, in the service of Him — the only Master, who is always ready to accept the sincere endeavour for the deed. " Let us behave ourselves valiantly for our Country, and for the cities of our God, and let the Lord do what seemeth good in his sight." Whether the Church-establishment in this empire is destined to be speedily overturned, or 12 FIRST CHARGE. impaired, or to last in undiminished or increased vigour for ages, let no one of us, my Christian brethren, forget, that, to himself, the Established Church will, in a few short years, be no more. The endowments — the pohtical preeminence — the earthly provisions for the support, and safety, and dignity of our Church — even though fated to remain through future generations — will, at any rate, in a few years, be at an end, as far as each one of us is personally concerned. But though the events of this world will then be nothing to us, it will be of the greatest con- cern to us, what our own conduct in this world shall have been. And he who does that, which, if all, or even most men, did the like, would make the whole church of Christ, in truth, a living Temple, fit for the habitation of the Holy Spirit, will be regarded by his Righteous Judge, as having accomplished that work : his efforts in his Master's cause, whether successful or not, will be accepted for that Master's sake ; and his Father, who seeth in secret, will reward him openly." Let us not then, my Christian brethren, how- ever outwardly disheartening the present aspect FIRST CHARGE. 13 of affairs, " be weary in well-doing ; for in due season we shall reap if we faint not :" but, in respect of our endeavours, let us ever say, thy kingdom come and, in respect of events, " thy will be done." Of all the duties of a Christian, and especially of a Christian minister, there is none perhaps more particularly called for, at such a crisis as the present, than that to which our Lord attaches so preeminent a blessing — " Blessed," says He, are the peace-makers ; for they shall be called the sons of God." If it be possible," says the Apostle accordingly, " as much as lieth in yoUy live peaceably with all men." But among Christians themselves, and especially fellow-members of the same Christian com- munity, discord and party-spirit, wrath, bitter- ness, malice, evil-speaking, envyings, and such like, are continually put forward by the sacred writers, as most prominent marks of the carnal mind, that is at enmity with God ;" as the most strikingly contrasted with the fruits of the Spirit — charity, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness — in short, with the character of the peace-makers. And if these are the children of 14 FIRST CHARGE. God, we might have inferred by parity of rea- soning— even had we not been expressly taught, besides, in the rest of Scripture — whose children those in truth must be, who are occupied in kindling or keeping up strife.* I have adverted on the present occasion, to this, at all times an essential portion of the Christian character, because in times like these, the duty I am speaking of is both pecuHarly important, and also peculiarly difficult. It is peculiarly important, because nothing can more augment the danger of those who are fiercely assailed, or afford more triumph and advantage to their adversaries, than the display of mutual jealousies, and bitter intestine discord, accom- panied with unchristian and intemperate vio- lence, both against their opponents, and against each other. Those who are sent forth as sheep among w^olves," have need not only of * The Bishop. — "Will you maintain and set forwards, as much as lieth in you, quietness, peace, and love, among all Christian people, and especially among them that are or shall be committed to your charge? AnsTver.—l will do so, the Lord being my helper. — Ordi- nation Service. FIRST CHARGK. 15 the wisdom of the serpent/' but also of the harmlessness of the dove." And the duty is also peculiarly difficult to practise, because the provocations and trials of patience, which may be expected to arise at such a period, are, to most persons, unusually severe. Some of you may have been exposed, (owing to the pecuhar circumstances of the times, which are such as to call into unusual activity many evil passions, that in a quieter season are comparatively dormant,) and others are liable to be hereafter exposed, to personal wrongs, or even to personal danger — to threats, to obloquy and slander from various quarters — to misrepresentation, virulent abuse, and, in short, every species of moral persecution. To stand calm amidst such storms as these, without being either intimidated or provoked — to preserve equanimity, and Christian firmness, combined with Christian meekness — neither daunted nor irritated by the attacks of adversaries, or the desertion of friends, requires an effort too great for the weakness of unaided human nature, and for which you must look for the support of Him, who bade his followers prepare to " take up the 16 FIRST CHARGE. cross and follow Him," and promised them strength from above to imitate his example. But this is not the only difficulty. It is what one would less expect, but which yet experience tells us we are to expect, that men, when most violently assailed by a common enemy, are often disposed, instead of cordially combining their efforts for their joint preservation, to weaken themselves by the most bitter intestine discord, and to rage with increased fury against each other. We find the Christians at Corinth, while exposed to the hostility of their unbelieving neighbours, yet distracted by mutual jealousies, and torn by factious parties within themselves. We find the Jews, again, at the last siege of Jerusalem, as if possessed by demons, destroying their last hopes of safety, by the most furious contests with each other, while the Romans were beating down their walls : Ipsique suos, jam morte sub aegra, Discissos nudis laniabant dentibus artus. May our Church, my Christian brethren, at this eventful crisis, not present to posterity this frightful and disgusting spectacle ! FIRST CHARGE. 17 Di meliora piis, erroremque hostibus ilium ! No precise rules can, of course, be laid down for distinguishing in eacii case, without the aid of moral tact, what is or is not unbecoming the character of Christian heroism ; — for marking, with mathematical accuracy, the exact point of combination of uncompromising intrepidity, with Christian patience and forbearance. But for one who has been habitually cultivating this moral tact and Christian tone of sentiment, there are some passages of Scripture which, if impressed on the memory, and also on the heart, may prove of great practical utility, if habitually employed as a test. I am the last who would recommend the practice of deducing doctrines or rules of con- duct from insulated texts, interpreted without reference to the general tone of Scripture. But the sacred writings contain sundry precepts, which, after having been first carefully studied, and the true sense of them ascertained, and the spirit of them imbibed from comparison with the context, may afterwards be most profitably applied in the manner I have alluded to. Apply e» g, as a test to any thing that has c 18 FIRST CHARGE. been written, by yourself or by another, such precepts of Scripture as involve a description of the Christian temper. Blessed are the meek : — blessed are the peace-makers : — blessed are the pure in heart : — the minister of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men : in meekness instructing them that oppose them- selves : — Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who when He was re- viled, reviled not again ; when He suffered. He threatened not ; but submitted himself to Him that judgeth righteously : — Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil-speaking, be put away from you, with all malice ; and be ye kind one to another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ* hath forgiven you."f Repeat, I say, to yourself, such passages as these, in conjunction with what you are reading, as a kind of test to try the spirit, whether it be of God : " and if you are struck by the appearance of revolting incongruity and dis- crepancy between the two, our Lord's maxim * Ev XptoTw. f See Note C. at the end of this Charge. FIRST CHARGE. 19 will hardly fail to occur to you : — a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit." If such a passage then be of your own writing, you will of course instantly erase it ; with deep repentance, and with an earnest prayer that hereafter you may better know what manner of spirit you are of," as a disciple of Christ. If it be something written against yourself, or any cause you are engaged in supporting, look narrowly into your own conduct, to see whether any intemperate violence or indiscretion on your part may have given occasion to the unjustifiable conduct of another; for his being unjustifiable, does not necessarily justify you. Fear not to be " per- secuted and evil-spoken of, for righteousness- sake ; " but take care that it he purely for righteousness-sake, and not from your neglect- ing to take heed that your good be not evil spoken of. But if it appear, on careful and candid examination, that there is no truth or justice in all that is said against you, rejoice in the Lord with thankfulness that this is the case. He has no where promised to pre- serve his disciples from obloquy and perse- cution ; though his Spirit is ever ready to c 2 20 FIRST CHARGE. keep them from deserving it. Rejoice that He has counted you worthy to partake of the same cup with Him ; and has set before you his own example, of meekly enduring such reproaches from those who professed zeal towards God, as the most ingenious malignity never can possibly exceed. The Son of God, who went about doing good," was repre- sented as an agent of Satan. And copy that his example, in praying that it may please God to forgive your enemies, persecutors, and slanderers, and to turn their hearts." And lastly, if any thing that appears thus at variance with the spirit of the Gospel, and chargeable with unchristian bitterness, false- hood, or dishonest artifice, — if any thing of this kind proceed, not from an adversary, but from those engaged in a common cause with yourself, it is plainly your part, if possible, by advice and remonstrance to restrain such ill-advised advo- cates, (as Jesus did his followers, when about to call for fire from heaven on the Samaritans,) or if not, at least to testify your utter disavowal and deep reprobation. Both Christian prudence and Christian temper — the wisdom of the ser- FIRST CHARGE, 21 pent, no less than the harmlessness of the dove —will combine in deprecating the employment, in a good cause, of weapons, which are, in the end, as noxious to such a cause, as they are, from the first, unsuitable to it. The course of procedure I have been describ- ing, in reference to such cases as are likely to occur in times of much agitation, is such as I think the spirit of the Gospel would dictate to every Christian, whatever may be his situation in life. But by a Christian clergyman, this additional consideration should never for a moment be lost sight of : that we are, in one point, called on to set an example to the laity, not directly, but indirectly — I mean, in all that relates to the unchristian practice of duelling. Since, according to the rules of the worldly code of honour, a clergyman is exempted from the cruel alternative of either incurring worldly disgrace, or hazarding his own and his fellow- creature's life, in violation of the lavA's of God and his Country ; hence, we cannot exhibit any direct example to those who are exposed to the trial we have not to undergo. And for this reason, I have always been convinced that the 22 FIRST CHARGE. exhortations of the clergy on this subject are utterly unavaihng. However eloquently we may expose the absurdity of the practice — how- ever clearly we may prove its unchristian cha- racter— the impression will never leave the minds of the hearers, that not only they cannot know, but even the preacher himself cannot know, whether he would have strength to act up to his own principles, were he exposed to that trial from which he is certain to be for ever exempt. His words therefore pass by them as the idle wind, which they regard not." How then shall he proceed ? By indirect example he may produce the most beneficial effect. Let him exhibit not only such correct- ness of life, and scrupulous veracity, but such gentleness and courtesy of demeanour, as to prove, as far at least as he is concerned, that these results may be secured, independent of the check which duelling professes to supply; and the supposed necessity of which to the inter- course of civilized life, is the only plausible sup- port of the practice. That a clergyman cannot be called upon to fight a duel, is what he should FIRST CHARGE, 23 never for a moment forget : he should remember it, not as a base mind would be apt to do, as affording a security for falsehood, for dishonour- able conduct, or for insolence ; but as a consi- deration which stamps such conduct with the additional brand of cowardly meanness. That violence of language, and overbearing harshness of demeanour, which is often falsely charac- terized as spirited behaviour, is (however unbe- coming it may be to a Christian or a gentleman) in a layman, at least, an indication of a certain brutal courage, inasmuch as it exposes him to personal risk : in one who is secured from that risk, it is not only brutal, but base and cowardly brutality. But a clergyman who scrupulously avoids every thing that could have brought on, had he not been a clergyman, this supposed neces- sity of an appeal to arms — who never gives just occasion to have it said, or insinuated, that his gown protects him, will have this satisfaction, in addition to the intrinsic rectitude, and Chris- tian propriety of such conduct, that he is indi- rectly setting a good example in a point where his direct example could not avail : he is doing 24 FIRST CHARGE. perhaps not a little — at any rate, he is doing all that by a clergyman can be done — towards dis- countenancing and putting down a remnant of unchristian barbarism,. I will only add, in conclusion, a repetition of what I have said before to most of you, my Christian brethren, (not in words only, but I trust in my conduct also,) that you shall ever find me ready, to the best of my power, to assist, advise, consult, and cooperate with all and each of you, in every good work ; and to promote, as far as my ability extends, the most cordial union, and brotherly kindness among all the members of our Church. I can safely say that there will be no want of sincere, and single-hearted, and friendly, and harmonious cooperation among us, if the clergy and their several congregations will be but ready to evince the same disposition towards me, which they will always find in myself towards them. I entreat you therefore, my Christian brethren, to unite your prayers with mine, that we may be blessed with this spirit of Christian concord : I entreat you not to repeat as a mere out- ward ceremonial form, the prescribed words of FIRST CHARGE. 25 supplication in favour of Bishops, and Curates, and Congregations committed to their charge ; " but to offer up from your inmost heart, with sincere faith, and confident hope, and fervent charity, your prayers that our Church may be defended, if not from temporal disasters, and assaults from without, at least from spiritual calamity, and from envy, hatred, and mahce, and all uncharitableness," displayed by her own members, whether towards their opponents, or towards each other. He who has promised to be with us " always, even unto the end of the world," and before whose tribunal we shall then have to appear, together, to give an account of our stewardship ; and who is now in the midst of those sincerely gathered together in his Name, has promised that if we shall agree touching something we shall ask for, in His name, it shall be given us by his Heavenly Father. Let us agree then, my Christian brethren, to ask of Him, to whom all hearts are open, all desires known, and who hears the prayers that never pass the lips, to grant us his promised peace ; to bless us with mutual con- cord ; and to guide us with his heavenly wisdom. 26 FIRST CHARGE. and support us by his heavenly strength, in the midst of all the difficulties and dangers with which He may be pleased to try us in our passage through this world. NOTES. Note A. — Page 6. It may be necessary here to observe, that by a " practical discourse," I mean any that is calculated to influence either the outward conduct, or the motives, sentiments, temper, affections — in short, the inward moral character or disposition of the hearer. Such, I believe, is the sense most correctly attached to the word " practical but I have added this distinct declaration of my meaning, because some persons are in the habit of employing the word in reference to mere external conduct alone, without any reference to the inward prin- ciples from which it proceeds. And yet every one, I think, is ready to acknowledge, on a moment's reflection, that it is the motive alone that can stamp the character of virtuous or vicious on any action ; nay, and that it is the motives themselves — the principles and designs of the agent, and not the actions, that are primarily and pro- perly designated as morally good or evil. A man, for instance, who fires a gun at another, with intent to assassinate him, is, morally speaking, not the less a murderer, though he should chance to miss his aim : 28 NOTES TO FIRST CHARGE. nor is he the less a patriot, morally, who uses his best endeavours to benefit his country, though his efforts should fail of success. But men so often deceive, both others, by empty pro- fessions, and themselves, by general good intentions, which fail when the time of trial comes, that we are naturally led to look to actions as the test of character ; and thence, not only to apply, but to confine, to the external actions, the title of virtuous or vicious, which properly belongs to the disposition of the agent. But still, we are fully aware, on reflection, that the outward actions are only so far morally good or evil, as they are a sign of what is within — that it would be absurd to attribute moral agency to a machine which should perform its work with the utmost regularity ; and that a practical good effect has been produced even on any one who had been already acting rightly in some point, but on inferior motives, when he is induced to pursue the very same line of conduct on higher and purer principles. Whatever produces a change of the heart, has produced not only a practical effect, but, as far as the agent himself is concerned, the greatest of all practical effects. It may be also necessary to observe, that I do not mean to restrict the term *' morality " (according to a very common abuse of language) to the control of the sensual appetites. "Virtuous" and vicious" are often thus confined in their application ; but I call this an abuse of language, because no one, I think, would deli- berately affirm that there is no vice in indulging, or NOTES TO FIRST CHARGE. 29 virtue in restraining, the worldly, and the more truly diabolical propensities : such as covetousness, vanity, falsehood, arrogance, envy, malice, and cruelty. From overlooking these truths, though so obvious when stated, casuists in particular have often fallen into hurtful errors, by distinguishing venial from mortal sins according to the amount e. g. of money stolen, or the like, rather than according to the disposition of the agent. Note B.— Page 8. I have elsewhere made nearly the same remark in other words : — " It is an admonition which probably " will give offence to some, and excite the scorn of ** others, but which I cannot but think may sometimes " prove useful to a young preacher, that he should ask " himself, at the beginning, and in the course of his " composition, * for what purpose am I going to preach ? " Wherein would any one be a loser, if I were to keep " silence ? Is it likely that any one will learn something he was ignorant of, or be reminded forcibly of some- " thing he had forgotten, or that something he was " familiar with shall be set before him in a new and " striking point of view, or that some difficulty will have " been explained, or some confused ideas rendered clear; " or, in short, that I shall at all have edified any one? " Let it not be said, that I preached because there was to be a sermon, and concluded when I had said enough " to—occupy the requisite time ; careful only to avoid 30 NOTES TO FIRST CHARGE. any thing that could excite censure, and content to leave the hearers just as 1 found them. Let me not " be satisfied with the thousandth iteration of common- " places, on the ground that it is all very true, and that " it is the fault of the congregation if they do not believe " and practise it ; for all this is equally the case, whether I preach or not; and if all I say is what they not only " knew before, but had heard in the same trite and " general statements an hundred times before, I might as well hold my peace. I ought not to be considering " merely whether these- arguments — motives — doctrines, " &c., are themselves likely to produce an effect ; but " whether my urging them will be likely to make any " difference as to the effect. Am I then about to preach " merely because 1 want to say something, or because I have something to say?' It is true, a man cannot expect constant success in " his endeavours, but he is not very likely to succeed in " any thing that is not even the object of his endea- vours." — Elements of Rhetoric, Part III, Chap. 3, Note C— Page 18. When any one feels himself deeply wronged, by un- provoked hostility, or, still more, by base desertion, and requital of evil for good, he is of course strongly tempted to give way to resentment, and perhaps to cherish it under the more specious name of virtuous INDIGNATION. And Certainly he ought not to combat NOTES TO FIRST CHARGE. 31 this feeling by labouring to stifle any such sentiment of moral disapprobation as really is virtuous ; by explaining away the distinctions of right and wrong, and seeking to practise the duty of forgiveness by persuading himself that there is little or nothing to forgive. It may be advisable then, in such a case, instead of either thus glossing over moral turpitude, or again, yielding to the inclination to complain bitterly, or perhaps to revile and execrate, — that one should accustom liimself to say, where there is manifestly just ground for complaint, ** that man owes me an hundred pence ! " (Matt, xviii. 28.) This will at once recall to our mind the parable of him who rigorously enforced his own claims, when he had been forgiven a debt of ten thousand talents. A CHARGE DELIVERED TO THE CLERGY OF THE DIOCESES OF DUBLIN AND GLANDELOUGH, AT THE VISITATION IN JULY, 18.35. noXX?/v iv X/otcrr(j> irapp-qmav ix^iiv ETriruaaeiv (toi to avijKOv, ^la rriv aynTTrjv fiaXXov TrapaKoXio. Ep. Philem. ver. 8, 9. D TO THE VENERABLE J. TORRENS, D. D, ARCHDEACON OF DUBLIN. Dear Mr. Archdeacon, It has afforded me great satisfaction to receive, through you, an application on behalf of yourself and a number of the Clergy, re- questing the publication of my Charge. Their approbation of my well-meant endeavours to promote their welfare and their usefulness, holds out a cheering hope of the success of those endeavours, through the means of an harmonious and successful cooperation between us. d2 36 DEDICATION. I may add, that, in a Country which is unhappily so generally regarded as the very seat of reckless and all-absorbing party-spirit, the esteem and confidence manifested by the Clergy towards one who has ever kept aloof from all parties, ecclesiastical and political, cannot, I think, but redound to their credit, and to the safety of the Establishment. Believe me to be. Dear Mr. Archdeacon, Yours very faithfully, RICHARD DUBLIN. Palace, Dublin, July, 1835. A CHARGE, Sfc. S^c, MY REVEREND BRETHREN, The subject of our Church Establishment, and its present situation — the difficulties, and dan- gers, and uncertainty in which it is involved — to which I briefly adverted in my address to you last year, is one on which, deeply interesting as it is, it would be useless to enlarge on an occa- sion such as this ; because it does not mainly rest with us, the Clergy, as such, to remove or prevent the evils in question. The spiritual well- being and efficiency of our Church is our special concern. Not but that we may, by our atten- tion to this, our proper department, contribute something towards the temporal welfare of the 38 SECOND CHARGE. Establishment also; we may, by showing our- selves patterns of Christian knowledge and zeal, combined with christian meekness and discretion, — by displaying the wisdom of the serpent united with the harmlessness of the dove — and by pro- moting the growth of these fruits of the Christian spirit in our flocks, — do something towards im- pressing on the minds of the nation at large, and of the Legislature, a conviction of the utility of our Establishment.* But our exertions in this way, whether they contribute much or little towards such an end, ought to have a far higher end proposed, — and should spring from a far nobler motive than any that worldly objects can supply. To save the souls of ourselves, and of those committed to our care, ought to be, and we should show that we feel it to be, our ulti- mate end ; and we should endeavour to impress on our people our own practical conviction of what we teach, when we bid them not be ** busy and troubled about many things," when " one thing is needful." You will not, I trust, imagine that I am disposed to join in the popular declamation that is so * See Note at the end of this Charge. SECOND CHARGE. 39 prevalent, respecting the alleged covetousness and worldliness of the Clergy, and the extraordinary disinterestedness and even ascetic self-mortifica- tion that is to be fairly expected of them : as if the same degree of care for securing a respec- table maintenance, and a provision for a family, which are regarded as allowable, and even lau- dable, in men of all other classes, were to be severely reprobated in the Clergy ; or as if these were characterized and distinguished from the laity by a greater degree of devotedness to worldly objects. The prevalence of this kind of declamation, which has been considered as a sign of the times, — and perhaps, in its precise form and degree may be such, — I am rather disposed to regard as a sign of human nature. For I know of no times or Countries in which it has not been characteristic of the natural man,'' that any one class of persons should delight in dwelHng on the virtues required, and the deficiencies exhibited, in another class ; and should readily turn aside their attention from their own duties and their own faults to those of some other order of men. For this reason, I should think it right to dwell on different topics in addressing, respectively. 40 SECOND CHARGE. the Clergy and the Laity. Not that truth is any where to be lost sight of or distorted ; but that the same truths are not equally needed to be im- pressed on the minds of different descriptions of hearers. Our Lord accordingly did not occupy the Pharisees with an exposure of Sadducean errors, nor the Sadducees with rebukes of Pharisaical hypocrisy ; He did not, in addressing Jews, dwell on the superior claims of the temple at Jerusalem to that on Mount Gerizim, nor declaim to the Samaritans against the bigoted nationahty of the Jews ; but in his discourses to each, enlarged on such topics as might be, to each, most profitable. Had it been his object to gain popularity — to interest and gratify his hearers, instead of profiting them, his method would of course (for the reason just given) have been the very reverse. And I have no doubt accordingly that to many an assembly of Laymen much gratification might be afforded by an eloquent declamation on the grasping and secular character of the Clergy, — on the unreasonableness of their not being con- tented with the bare necessaries of life, — or with- out them, — and on the example of humble and SECOND CHARGE. 41 austere self-denial that is to be expected from them ; all, without any hint of the duty of following such an example. For it is remarkable that there is a strange sort of impropriety in the popular use of the word exemplary y as applied to the character and conduct of the Clergy. It is generally confined to what is not really exem- plary,— to whatever points are considered as characteristic of the Clergy, and peculiar to them, and never meant to be imitated by the Laity.* On the other hand, to any of the Clergy who might be under the influence of this human infirmity, an eloquent detail of the claims, and rights, and good deserts of our own Order, and of the corresponding duties of the Laity, would be likely to be more acceptable, than an ex- position of our own temptations and our own responsibility. It is my object, however, not to court the favour, or to minister to the present gratification of either class ; but to promote the substantial benefit of each, whenever opportunity may occur. I will therefore take this occasion, my Reverend Brethren, merely to suggest to you the point of * See Romish Errors, ch. ii. § 11. 42 SECOND CHARGE. view which, I think, is every way the wisest and best in which you can contemplate, and endea- vour to lead others to contemplate, the temporal endowments of the Church. For as these may be regarded in two lights, viz, as a benefit either to the actual holders of the endowments, or to the Community, for whose sake they were be- stowed, it is plain that this latter view is that which ought to be considered as the primary and essential, and also as the more consonant both to the safety of the Establishment and to the dig- nity of the Clergy. I say that this is the most correct and truest view that can be taken, because any one who founds, e. g. a College, or School, or Professorship, is always supposed to have in view, as his primary and essential object, the benefit, not of the individual tutors, masters, &c. who may from time to time be the immediate holders of the endowments, but of the Public, who are to profit by their instructions. He is re- garded as a benefactor to the students, not (except incidentally) to the professors or other teachers. And the same is the view which I think it is the most fair, as well as the most pru- dent, to take of the endowments of our Church. SECOND CHARGE. 43 Let its claim of protection for those endowments be rested on their utihty ; and be set forth as a claim (which, in truth, it is) on behalf of the People, rather than of the Ministers. With what- ever sacred inviolability, distinct from this plea of usefulness, the endowments of the Church may, in the judgment of any one, be invested, I would only suggest, — without entering into any discussion of questions under that head — that the claim which I have recommended to be put forward is the only one that is likely to be urged with practical effect. If the Church endowments be upheld, we may be assured it will have been from a conviction on the part of the Legislature and the Nation of their being needful for the be- nefit of the Congregations. Should this plea fail of effect, we may be assured no other will avail. I will not enter further into the discussion of any questions relative to the temporalities of the Church ; which is not the subject to which I wish on this occasion to direct your principal attention. Nor again do I design, on this any more than on the former occasion, to occupy your time with a delineation of the character to be aimed at — 44 SECOND CHARGE. the duties to be performed — by an individual Clergyman, and by exhortations to right conduct in that capacity : because (as I then remarked) those who have already reflected, — as I trust you have, — on the av^^fully responsible nature of your sacred Profession, would have little need of such descriptions and admonitions : and those who have not, would be unlikely to profit by them now. I wish rather to call your attention to that line of conduct which you may adopt, not indi- vidually but combinedly, with the best prospect of benefiting both the Church to which we belong, and through that, the Public at large. It is obviously a duty, and an advantage, for the members of any society, under all circum- stances,— more especially for the Clergy of a Christian Church, and most of all when that Church is so situated as ours is at present, — to live in harmony — to assist each other — to act in concert as much as possible, — and to cooperate as one united Body, guided by the same prin- ciples, and conforming to the same regulations. All would probably admit this in the abstract ; and all would perhaps be ready to act on that admission, in the case of any community — could SECOND CHARGE. 45 there be any such — whose constitution and whose governors should not only be, but should appear to every individual member of that com- munity— so perfect as to admit of no conceiv- able improvement. But this we know to be an impossibility. For even if a system absolutely perfect could be established, which none could be, subsequent to the removal of the Apostles, — the inspired and unerring founders and go- vernors of the earliest Christian Churches, — still, as we learn from the experience of what took place, even in the times of those very Apostles, many would be found disposed to " walk disor- derly," and disregard its regulations. But in our Church (as in any other commu- nity whose regulations are framed by fallible mortals) it is not pretended that all its enact- ments are, even in themselves, so perfect as to preclude all possibility of improvement. Let it be considered, then, what is the duty of individuals who are members of such a commu- nity ; — of individuals situated, as every member of any church must, more or less, be situated, as long as man shall continue falhble, and the institutions of human wisdom fall short of 46 SECOND CHARGE. unerring perfection. Shall we openly withdraw from the community we belong to, on the ground of its not realizing those ideas of perfection which no constitution that is, in any degree, of man's framing, ever can realize ? Or shall we, though not avowedly yet virtually, withdraw from it, by taking no part, and manifesting no interest in its common concerns, till every thing that seems to us an imperfection shall have been completely remedied? Or again, shall we exert ourselves indeed in promoting the objects proposed, but exert ourselves either singly as insulated individuals, or in irregular combi- nations, setting at nought the institutions and regulations of the community, and in defiance of its legitimate governors ? In all these ways, it is manifest we should be professing concord and church-unity in words, while we were destroying it by our conduct. We should be maintaining a mere nominal and hypothetical kind of christian harmony ; to be then only displayed in prac- tice when every part of the constitution of the Church should be modelled precisely according to our own judgment and our own wishes. Far different surely is the wise policy, and SECOND CHARGE. 47 (what in this case comes to the same point) the bounden duty, of each member of any com- munity— and not least, of each member — more especially each minister — of a Church which he does not deem so radically corrupt in doctrine or in discipline as to oblige him to forsake it. It should be his endeavour, in the first place, to avail himself as far as possible of all its existing regulations and institutions, towards promoting beneficial objects ; and in the next place, to do all he can (not only as a single individual, but in combination with his fellow-members of the Church) in furthering those objects, under the control at least, if not with the aid, of the esta- blished regulations, and keeping within the bounds which they prescribe. And if in any case the cooperation of other members, and especially of the regular governors of the Church, in any beneficial measure, shall have been sought in vain, we should regard it as a matter of consolation that at least it has been sought. While we regret the absence of their aid in what we consider a good work, we should secure to ourselves, at least the satisfaction of feeling that the fault, if there be any, rests with them, and not with ourselves. 48 SECOND CHARGE. And if, again, we find in any case our useful exertions apparently crippled by what may seem to us the injudicious regulations of the Society, it is for us to deliberate attentively — to reflect solemnly — which is, in such a case, the more ad- visable and the more justifiable side of the al- ternative ; to forego some advantages, and submit to some inconveniences, in obeying the laws of our society, while they continue to be its laws, though they are not such as we fully approve, and though we are taking steps to obtain an alteration of them ; or, for the sake of some par- ticular benefit, to violate a general obligation, and thus loosen the whole fabric of the Body of which we are members, by setting an example of irre- gularity and disunion. For it is evident that to adopt this latter course, is to introduce a princi- ple which each will afterwards apply according to his own discretion, one in one way and an- other in another; and which utterly nullifies all professions of allegiance, subordination, and unanimity. Every one must see what an empty name must be that of discipline, in an army of which each soldier should be ready to obey orders only just so far as they might chance to SECOND CHARGE. 49 fall in with his own views of what was most ad- visable, and should violate them without scruple in compliance with the suggestions of his own judgment. And every one, I may add, must perceive how little, in such an army, would avail, the valour and activity of soldiers quitting their ranks at pleasure, and acting, each as his own ge- neral, either singly, or in small self-formed bodies of irregular volunteers ; and what irretrievable confusion and ultimate ruin must be the result. I have thought it right, for the sake of giving a clear view of the argument, to suppose the case (and it certainly is at least a supposable one) of a church whose constitution is chargeable with some defects. How far, or whether at all, such a description will apply to the constitution of our own Church, and how far any alleged defects may be remediable or irremediable, are questions which I have purposely and carefully abstained from discussing; because I wish to rest the duty of conformity to existing regulations, not on the perceived expediency or perfection of each, — a point on which we may expect that there will always be some differences of opinion, but on a ground less likely to be disputed, their existence ; E 50 SECOND CHARGE. on their being, actually, whether wise or unwise, regulations of the Society we belong to, and as such, claiming our obedience. I will only add one remark to what I have said on this subject : that no one should regard with suspicious aversion that loyal compliance with the subsisting rules of the community, while they continue to he its rules, which I have urged as a duty incumbent on all its members, — no one, I say, should regard this with suspicion, as tending to prevent the reformation of defects, and to perpetuate unwise laws. Quite the contrary. Nothing tends more to prevent the regular abro- gation or alteration of unwise laws than the irre- gular infringement or evasion of them. Nothing is more conducive not only to the maintenance of what is good, but also to the amendment of what is evil, in any of our institutions, than a scrupulous conformity to them while they subsist. If every member either of a civil or of an ecclesiastical community would make it a point of conscience both to obey, in each particular point, the laws while they continue to be laws, and also to use his best endeavours in a regular way, for the gemral amendment of any thing he might think SECOND CHARGE. 51 faulty, the community would gain much not only in point of healthful firmness and stability, but also in point of susceptibility, of growth and improvement. Unhappily, the conduct of most men is the very reverse of this. Instead of labouring to im- prove the regular public high roads, or to amend the direction of them, each is ready to break a path for himself as his own convenience may suggest. If the inexpediency of any law is pointed out to him, and he is urged, on public grounds, to use his endeavours to procure the regular alteration of it, he will perhaps plead that he is not bound to trouble himself about that which is no special concern of his : and yet the inexpediency of that very law he will per- haps plead as an excuse for the unscrupulous violation of it in any particular case where it may interfere with his private convenience. To those of more mature age and judgment among the Clergy, I look with confident hope that they will aid me in pressing these principles on the minds of their younger and less experienced brethren, who might be the more hkely on that account to overlook their importance. And in E 2 52 SECOND CHARGE. all points, I exhort the older and more expe- rienced labourers in the vineyard to be ready — not indeed officiously to obtrude, but freely to afford, their advice to those who are entering on the ministry. Indeed, I would remind all of you that you have a duty not only to your congrega- tions, but to each other, in striving, each, to fur- ther, as far as may be done without arrogant assumption and offensive intrusion, the improve- ment in Christian learning and wisdom, and ministerial usefulness, of his fellow-labourers. In all these matters, much must rest with you, my Reverend Brethren, though no exertions on my part ever have been or shall be wanting towards increasing the usefulness of the Clergy ; either by seeking to advance and facilitate their clerical education, or by favouring the improve- ment, or the opening under suitable regulations, of places of worship, or by any other means within my reach. And I have also used, and will use, my best endeavours to fulfil the duty to which I am especially bound by vow : to maintain, as far as in me lieth, quietness, peace, and love, among all men, and especially among the Clergy of the diocese committed to my care." SECOND CHARGE. 53 I have taken every precaution accordingly, by which htigation and contention of any kind among the members of our Church, and especially among the Clergy, may be guarded against. For if it was accounted a scandal in the Church of Corinth that Christians should go to law with Christians about matters purely secular, still more disgraceful to one at least of the parties concerned, if not to both, must be contention among ministers in respect of spiritual matters. Having called your attention particularly to the importance of harmonious and cordial co- operation— of combined exertions in our com- mon cause, I will not let pass this opportunity of informing you, which I do with much satisfac- tion, that I have every reason to believe there will be, at the suggestion of the Lord Primate, a general meeting this year,* and also in each succeeding year, of the Bishops of this portion of the united Church ; for the purpose of mutual consultation on those various points from time to time arising, on which it is so important that the governors of the Church should, as far as * The meeting for the present year took place (owing to peculiar circumstances) in London, in the month of July. 54 SECOND CHARGE. possible, proceed on common principles, and act in concert as one Body. Such an assembly will not indeed have power, like a legislative Body, to bind the minority — in case of any irreconcile- able difference of opinion — by the decision of the majority. But in the event of unanimity on any question that may arise, each will derive that support in his decision, which, for the benefit of the Church, he ought to derive, from his ascer- tained agreement with his brethren, and from being able to calculate on their practical coopera- tion. And whether unanimous or not, the ulti- mate deliberate determination of each will at least derive, and deservedly, additional weight from its being known to have undergone calm discussion, and not to have been adopted with- out an opportunity, at least, being afforded of weighing the reasons on both sides. And each Bishop will thus have also an opportunity, of which I for one, (as well as, no doubt, my bre- thren on the Bench,) shall gladly avail myself — of laying before the rest the ascertained views both of the Clergy of his own diocese gene- rally, and of those in particular where expe- rience, and ability, and tried Christian character. SECOND CHARGE. 55 may have entitled them to be more especially consulted. With respect to yourselves, my Reverend Brethren, and indeed to all the Clergy of the united Church, when I offer my cordial coope- ration with all or any of you, in any plan of proceeding that may further the great business to which we have devoted ourselves, — my advice in any case of doubt and difficulty that may occur, — my aid towards reconciling differences, and facilitating your cooperation with each other, — and, finally, when I offer to give a fair hearing to any proposals or suggestions that may be the result of Christian zeal combined with careful de- liberation,— when I offer all this, I trust I shall not be understood, — nay, I claim not to be under- stood— as uttering mere words of course, which do not represent the genuine sentiments of my heart, or which will not be realized by my con- duct. I claim this, because I have now been long enough among you, to estabhsh, I trust, in some degree, this claim. Some of you are able to bear testimony from experience that I am ready to make good my professions of forward- ness to cooperate with and further your Christian 56 SECOND CHARGE. exertions ; and no one, I think, can say that, on making trial, he has found his well-meant endea- vours (whether my judgment may have coin- cided, or not, with his) treated with indifference and disregard ; or that any thing had been rejected unheard which in any way deserved a hearing. In this, and I believe in some other points, I have reason to hope that my views are by many persons better understood, — my sentiments and motives more fairly appreciated than they were, or than perhaps I could expect they should be, when I first came among you. For your sakes, and for that of our Christian brethren, I rejoice in this hope. As far as I am concerned, " it is a small thing for me to be judged of you, or of man's judgment ; yea, I judge not mine own self ; but he that judgeth me is the Lord."* But though I have to look to a higher and more awful, and an unerring tribunal, I am sensible how impor- tant it is, with a view to the benefit of others, that I should obtain your approbation, and con- fidence, and cordial support. I will therefore conclude with the very words * 1 Cor. iv. 3. SECOND CHARGE. 57 which I had occasion to address to some of you above three years ago.* After remarking how little any exertions of mine could avail without the cooperation of the Clergy, I added — And this cooperation, I may confidently say, I shall obtain, if they will be as ready on their part, as I shall ever be on mine. I wish for no more of brotherly kindness and candour than I am ready myself to manifest towards them ; I am always glad to avail myself of their advice, and to put the most favourable interpretation on what they say and do ; I have laboured, and I trust not altoge- ther in vain, to vindicate them in the eyes of the Public from unjust imputations : whatever influ- ence I possess (which, however, is no more than that of a man without any personal or pohtical claims on government) I have exerted in favour of what I have thought their just demands : I am desirous to concur with them as far as I can ; and, when compelled to differ from any of them in opinion, to differ without hostile and un- charitable feelings : and I ask but the same in return." These words were uttered then, and they are * Vide infra, Reply to Address of Clergy, in 1832. 58 SECOND CHARGE. repeated now, in perfect sincerity and truth. May God grant that the wishes and hopes im- pHed in them may be more and more reahzed on each succeeding year ! May he dehver both me and you from the fearful responsibiUty of having presented any hinderance to the fulfilment of such hopes ! NOTE. Page 38. I ALLUDE for instance (among others) to the argu- ment of those who rest the claims of the Establishment principally on the truth and purity of the doctrines of our Church. Now, — not to mention that this argument will not be admitted by those members of the legislature who are of a different religion — it can hardly be supposed that a majority even of those of them who are of our commu- nion, would consent to follow up the principle of the ar- gument ; — would acquiesce, for instance, in the division of our East Indian territories into 20,000 or 30,000 parishes, with a sufficient endowment in each for the maintenance of a Minister of our Church ; who would in most instances be without a congregation. And yet our doctrines must be as true in Hindostan as they are here. Now should any one attempt to draw such a parallel as this, it would be replied, most justly, that there is a wide difference in the circumstances of Hindostan and of Ireland ; in which the number of members of our Church is such that the aggregate revenue of all the livings, — 60 NOTE TO SECOND CHARGE. though it might be desirable to see it better distributed — is not more than sufficient for the wants of all the con- gregations. This is perfectly true : and it is this truth that I wish to see prominently put forward and dwelt on, instead of being kept out of sight by a mode of reasoning quite uncon- nected with it. It is precisely because there is this wide difference between the cases of Ireland and of Hindostan, that I deprecate the use of an argument which is equally applicable to both. The mischievous delusion which represents ours as a sinecure Establishment, is evidently fostered by its being defended on principles which would no less apply if it were such. However sound those principles may in fact be, we have no reason to hope they will be admitted) so as to lead to any practical good effect. Some persons, again, are accustomed to deny the right of the Legislature to interfere at all with Church-property, and will not recognise the authority of the civil govern- ment over the temporalities of the Establishment. Now this again is a principle, we should remember, which would be equally applicable if the number of the Protestants in Ireland were but the hundredth part of what it is, and the revenues of the Church one hundred times greater. For if there be any property which I have absolutely no right to interfere with, it is nothing to the purpose to inquire into its amount, or whether it be wasted, or beneficially expended. But to waive the question as to the soundness of this view, — it is at least a safer and more prudent course to NOTE TO SECOND CHARGE. 61 remonstrate against an unfair and unwise exercise of the rights which the Legislature claims, than to dispute the claim, in a case where the dispute must be decided by the very claimant itself. All must admit that there are cases in which a person does possess a right which he sometimes does not rightly exercise. Whenever, for instance, a law is proposed to any legislative Body, which they have the right of either enacting or rejecting, it would be a manifest absurdity to say that they would be equally right in doing either the one or the other. I myself, indeed, have always maintained that every Civil Government has a control (though sometimes very ill administered) over tempo- ralities : and on the other hand, that it has not a control over men's consciences ; — no right to attempt to enforce or prohibit, by any kind of penalties, any particular religion. And those who deny both these positions ; — who, while they place the religious faith of the subjects within the province of the Civil Magistrate, and leave it to him to decide what tenets are true, and to prescribe to them what religion they shall profess, yet deny his right to exercise any control over the temporalities of the Church, as some- thing too sacred for his interference, — such persons do appear to me to reverse our Saviour's maxim, and to say, " Render unto Caesar the things that are God's, and unto God the things that are Caesar's." But I am ready on this occasion to waive the question as to the soundness of such arguments as I have been alluding to ; as I wish merely to point out how unlikely it is that they can be urged with any practical good effect. ADDRESS TO THE CLERGY OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF DUBLIN, AND DIOCESE OF GLANDELOUGH, IN AUGUST 1832. Av^avETB ^? The complaints have been very various and distinct ; some have complained of Government, for not having a sufficient number of troops in Ireland ; others have complained of them for not increasing the number of yeomanry : and others have thought that the troops were not prompt enough in acting; — that they were marching, as it were, with ropes about their necks, deterred by the fear of clamour from using any vigorous measures. Others have complained of the magistrates. But in respect of the massacre at Knocktopher, which has excited so much attention, the complaint was not so much that the force was insufficient, as that the men were crippled by the fear of incur- ring legal penalties if they acted in the manner Y 322 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE which experience has proved to have been absolutely necessary for self-preservation ; that they were deterred from firing till the rioters had actually seized the muskets, and wrested them out of their hands. With respect to the collection of arrears, the plan you proposed was understood to be this, that the Govern- ment should give a security to the incumbent to whom those arrears are due, either to the full amount or for a proportion of those arrears, and take upon itself the collection ? Yes ; in the form of paper money. That by an issue of exchequer bills or bonds the Go- vernment should buy the debt, and then recover it in whatever way they thought best. Do you apprehend that that demand, if it were known to be merely a substitution for the demand of the Clergy, would be less objected to or less resisted if it were en- forced by Government ? I have no doubt it would be less resisted, because there is an opinion most industriously circulated by the resisters of Tithes, that the Government disapproves of Tithes. The hasty and unthinking and uneducated are not very apt ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 323 to draw distinctions where they are of the greatest importance. It might be said, for instance, and I dare say will be said in the Irish newspapers, that because I have advocated commutation of Tithes for land I am against Tithes. A sort of general phrase of that kind gets into circulation, and many persons, hearing that I disapprove of Tithes, would understand me to mean that I wish that Tithes should not be paid : and the same is the impression with respect to Government. When it has been said that the present Administration are fa- vourable to an alteration in the system of Tithes, that is understood to mean that the Government is against Tithes ; a sort of crude general observation of that kind finds access to the minds of the people, and then the more weak and the ignorant of them believe, and the more crafty and designing circulate the opinion, that Government is in fact favouring the oppo- sition to Tithes. Now I think myself that Tithes are, both in England and m Ireland, especially in Ireland, an inexpedient kind of revenue ; but, of course, I should never think that any man is authorized in withholding a just Y 2 324 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE payment after it has become actually due. There are many laws I should disapprove of, and wish altered, that I think ought to be obeved ; but that is a sort of distinction that the vulgar of any country, and particularly in Ireland, are apt to overlook ; and the mere general idea of the Government being against Tithes, affords them great encouragement. But if the decisive step were taken, of the Govern- ment purchasing the arrears of Tithes, it w^ould at once disabuse them of that error. It occurred to myself, and on consulting the most intelligent of the Clergy, and those who have acted as agents, I found them concur, that the very offer on the part of the Government would preclude the necessity of accepting it, as soon as the people saw that Government were in earnest in the support of the Clergy, and were able to dis- tinguish completely between the two cases, of wishing to alter the existing law, and of favour- ing an opposition to that law during its exist- ence. In this opinion, as I said before, the majority of the best informed and most conver- sant with the character and feelings of the Irish appear to me to concur. ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 325 Do you consider that the same objections that might be made to a commutation of tithe into land in England would apply equally, under all the circumstances of their state, to the Clergy in Ireland, if so provided for ? I have no doubt that many of the Clergy in Ireland, who, if they were as well off as those in England, and had as good a security for their revenues at the present time as the Clergy in England, would be opposed to any kind of commutation, would now accept this gladly. Many of them have expressed to me their willingness, if they thought their property was not to be confiscated, to accept any thing they could depend upon, instead of having their hves in perpetual insecurity in endeavouring to obtain any portion of their property, and in many cases obtaining nothing at all. The question was not with reference merely to the feelings of the Clergy themselves, but with reference to the general expediency of such a provision for the Church ; whether the same objections that might be entertained by some persons in England to the Clergy being made landed proprietors, would apply in the same degree to Ireland? I am not aware of any objection that could 326 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE be applied in one country that would not apply to the other. Supposing it to be, not in the hands of the commis- sioners, but in the hands of the incumbent, would not the Irish incumbent be in a better situation for the pur- pose of deriving his income from the land than the English ? I cannot say whether he would be absolutely in a better situation than the English : the ex- change would be more for his advantage ; he would be much more a gainer by the exchange, considering how obnoxious Tithes are in Ireland to the Roman Catholics. Would not the circumstance of the great bulk of the population being Roman Catholic, and the circumstance of the limited religious duties which the Clergyman of the Protestant Church in Ireland would have to perform, make his occupation of land less objectionable than it would be in a parish entirely Protestant ? It is possible it might ; but I should be sorry that the Clergyman should become, in either country, principally a farmer. In fact, however, if the Clergyman takes his Tithes in kind, he must be occupied in the very worst parts of the business of farming, because he must become a ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 327 general small dealer in a great variety of com- modities, which seems to me to be, for a Clergy- man, the most objectionable part of a farmer's life. He must collect the Tithes from a great many individuals, and then have numerous trans- actions to sell again the different kinds of pro- duce to different purchasers. Have you a knowledge of any instances, or have any been stated to you, in which any difficulty has been ex- perienced in obtaining the rent for glebe land being the property of the Church ? I have heard some instances ; 1 have none in the papers before me ; but there have been in- stances mentioned to me in conversation which I cannot precisely detail. There are, however, a vast number of instances in Ireland, in which it is to be easily ascertained that there was glebe land originally belonging to the parish. There are fields actually bearing the name of glebe fields, although they have been irrecoverably ahenated. There are now many parishes without any, or with a very small portion of glebe. Many hundred instances have been brought to my knowledge of that alienation. My objections. 328 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE however, are very strong against the investment of land in an individual who is a corporation sole, and has a life interest, and no more than a life interest, and has no share in the appointment of his successor. It appears to me to lead to a great deal of loss of church property, and to a great deal of injustice of various kinds. Was your Grace correctly understood to state that Tithe is ultimately paid by the landlord in all instances, and that it operates solely as a reduction of rent ? I conceive that it operates solely as a reduction of rent, except so far as it may prevent improve- ments which were not contemplated when the lease was granted, and the rent adjusted. In such cases, the farmer may not extend his cul- tivation to the high degree of exactness which he otherwise would, and some degree of loss is incurred, or rather some gain prevented. Is not the Tithe upon land, where the produce has been augmented by the application of increased capital by the tenant, a reduction from the profits of that tenant, during the continuance of his lease ? I apprehend that the tenant does not usually make such improvements, except in cases where ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 329 he thinks he is pretty well secured as to a mode- rate demand of Tithe : but, undoubtedly, there are cases in which he is mistaken ; and in those cases, during the continuance of the lease, un- doubtedly the Tithe falls in part on the tenant : for a tenant may be considered, during the con- tinuance of his lease, as a landoxvner. I mentioned, however, before, that a common fallacy occurs in computing the comparative value of Tithe and of Rent ; that Tithe is usually computed to be the actual tenth of the gross produce, in cases 'not only where it is not actually received, through the forbearance and kind feel- ing of the incumbent, but where it couid not be received, because the expensive cultivation would be immediately discontinued if it were ; whereas Rent is always computed at what might be obtained. Would not the check which would be thereby given to improved cultivation in consequence of the Tithe, during the occupation of such tenant, prevent the application of capital, and be a check therefore to production ? Without doubt it does operate in that way, to a certain extent ; but principally with respect to 330 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE those improvements which return a remote profit. Since it is not the interest of the incumbent himself to claim a Tithe when the claim would diminish production, I am incHned to think that in operations completed within a moderate period, the incumbent and the farmer usually come to an arrangement ; but even those ope- rations may sometimes be prevented, from the mere apprehension that the claim would be advanced. In arable land, would not your Grace estimate the value of the Tithe* as about a fifth of the tithe-free rent ? I cannot speak as to that, since it is so ex- tremely variable upon land of different qualities. Even portions of land that produce very nearly the same crops will, in one district, through the natural richness of the soil, and the facility of * I am uncertain to which of the three senses of the word "tithe" (above explained) this question refers. In any of these senses, it would certainly be possible, by examining every parish in the Empire, to obtain an average ; and by the same means we might ascertain the average rent of an acre of land ; but, in either case, we should be nothing the wiser, for any practical purpose. ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 331 obtaining manure, &c., produce these crops at so much less expense than in another, that the gross produce of the two districts will be far more nearly on a level than the net produce, on which last depends the rent to be obtained. Your Grace observed that the church cess was equally objectionable to the landholders with Tithe ; have you seen any of the printed forms demanding church cess that are distributed to the Catholic parishioners by the Protestant churchwardens in the diocese of Dublin? No, I do not think I have seen any. I have conversed upon the subject with several of my Clergy, but I do not recollect having seen any printed forms. You have stated that there is considerable opposition to the payment of Tithe in the hands of lay impropria- tors; would you include, in the relief you propose to extend to the Clergy, the same measure to be adopted with regard to the holders of lay Tithes ? I should be apt to say (so far as I have con- sidered that point) that they must be left to themselves to make their own bargain, if they found Tithe an inconvenient kind of holding. Do you not conceive, that if the kind of measure you 332 xMINUTES OF EVIDENCE have suggested were adopted with respect to clerical Tithes, and Tithe were to be so far extinguished, that the objection to the payment of lay Tithe would be very con- siderably increased ? I think very likely it might ; and might pro- bably lead to the same result, — an arrangement between the holder and the payer for redeeming the Tithe. The chief difficulty of arranging it, in the case of the Clergy, is, that they, being merely tenants for life, of course cannot make a bargain which shall affect their successors. This inconvenience must be remedied, either in the way I have proposed, or by some similar con- trivance, so as to secure the permanency of the endowment. But a lay impropriator may sell or lease his Tithes, like any other property. Would you extend the arrangement you have proposed to the Land as well as to the Tithes ? I am convinced of the utter inexpediency of leaving any endowment in land in the hands of a single individual, who has himself a life inte- rest, and only a life interest, in it. In the first place, he is exposed to a strong temptation to seek for his own immediate benefit at the ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 333 expense of a much greater injury to his suc- cessors.* The present system of letting the bishop's lands in Ireland is an instance of this ; and when such a system has once been begun, others, who never would have thought of in- troducing it, are forced to continue it in self- defence. Moreover, a person who enters upon any pre- ferment, especially if vacated by the death of his predecessor, will often be able to obtain only a very imperfect and confused knowledge of the state of the revenues of the benefice or see. * Some of my readers may need to be informed that this system is, to renew (viz. a twenty-one years' lease) every year ; so that there is seldom a less term than twenty years to run. Under such a system accordingly, when there is any probability of the death or translation of the ecclesiastical landlord, it is clearly his interest to accept, — and the tenant seldom fails to offer (declining to renew otherwise) — a grossly inadequate renewal-fine. If these terms are not accepted, and a renewal does not take place, it is then given out that the bishop is " running his life against the lease." But the proper sense of this expression, viz. the ecclesiastical landlord refusing to renew on equitable terms, and choosing to take his chance of the lease running out in his lifetime, is a transaction which, as far as I can learn, never takes place ; and, indeed, is so con- trary to his own interest, as to be almost a moral impossi- bility. 334 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Advantage will often be taken of this to encroach upon its lands or other property ; and when maps or other documents are wanting, or are imperfect, as is often the case, church property is often irrecoverably lost ; and in other cases, where it might be recovered by legal means, the incumbent is frequently deterred from resorting to these by a dread of law expenses ; expenses much less than the value of the land in fee, yet greater than his life interest in it. Accordingly, I have ascertained that there are many hundred parishes in Ireland, in which portions of land actually exist, bearing the very title of glebe land, yet irrecoverably lost to the Church. There are many persons, I am aware, who do not regret the impoverishment of the Church, and would even gladly see a further portion of its endowments withdrawn, and appropriated to other national purposes; but they should re- member that this spohation of the Church by individuals, confers no benefit whatever on the Public, and only holds out a bounty upon fraud. I would, therefore, place all church endowments, without exception, in the hands of boards of com- missioners, to be administered by them as trustees. ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 335 With reference to the letters your Grace read from Mr. Hardy and Dr. Bernard, did you mean to be under- stood to produce those letters in confirmation of the opinions you expressed ? I do not mean that I coincide with them in detail, but I referred to them as expressing a general coincidence as to the main outline of my views. Are not these two opinions in themselves distinct, Mr. Hardy proposing that the first step to be taken should be to make the composition compulsory, and to put it upon land, and then an ultimate commutation for land in the hands of the individual occupier; and is not Dr. Bernard's opinion that the commutation should be for an acreable land tax, and not for land ? Yes ; the coincidence I referred to was their both being desirous that some alteration of the existing system should take place ; — that in one way or another the tithe system should be done away. Is the plan that your Grace recommends one which you recommend as your own, without any reference to the opinions of the Clergy ? Without any reference to those particular per- sons. I do not say " without reference to the 336 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE opinions of the Clergy/' because I have con- sulted several of them upon this subject. Does your Grace mean to extend the power of the commissioners you propose to establish, generally to all the landed property of the Church ? I should think it desirable that it should ex- tend to the whole. If if applied only to the incumbents of livings it would be some relief, but I should prefer extending it to the whole. Your Grace has stated that the Clergy have found some difficulty in collecting the rents of their glebe lands ; have you heard more objections to pay the rent of glebe lands to the Clergy than to pay rent to lay land- lords ? I think I have heard more objections to glebe, than to other rent ; objections to payments of any kind to the Clergy as Clergy ; but the prin- cipal objection is to Tithes. Is not the resistance to the payment of them not as Clergy but as landholders ? I cannot say to what degree the resistance may have been greater or less to other landlords than to them ; I have heard complaints, but I ON TITHES IN IKE LAND. 337 have not been able to ascertain precisely the extent to which it has proceeded with respect to either ; but whether resistance has been made to the payment of rent of glebe, in instances where no resistance has been made to the payment of rent to lay-landlords, I cannot say. If the resistance to the payment of rent to the Clergy- man for the glebe is now only on the same footing as the resistance to pay rent to the landlord, what advantage would there be in taking from the Clergyman the posses- sion of his glebe land? The reasons I have mentioned are those that have principally operated upon my mind; the objections, I mean, which I pointed out as lying against the system of vesting endowments in an individual who has a life interest only in the property. Would not a compulsory enforcement of the compo- sition be a necessary preliminary even to your Grace's plan, in order to ascertain the proportion that ought to be paid to each Clergyman out of the body of the church land and Tithe, which would be placed, according to your plan, in the hands of commissioners ? I should think that probably some such mode of computing the values of different livings z 338 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE would be the best way in which it could be effected. Is there any probabiHty of your Grace's plan being generally effected, so as to avoid the necessity of collect- ing in the mean time from the tenants or from the land- lords whatever sura the composition may amount to ? My immediate step would be, in each district, (archdeaconry or diocese, or whatever might be thought fit,) to transfer all the church property at once, as it is, into the hands of the board ; and that they should then proceed to get rid of Tithes, where they think it advisable, according to the most convenient mode they could devise, and as gradually as might be wished. Die Veneris, 3° Februarii 1832. In your Lordship's last examination you referred to certain grounds which had satisfied you as to the inex- pediency of Tithe as a mode of endowment for the Clergy; have you any further ground which you wish to state as the foundation of your opinion upon that subject? There are some additional considerations which have long since occurred to my mind in ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 339 support of that opinion. In the first place, an association is created between the ideas of reli- gion, and compulsory payment, most injurious to the minds of the parishioners. It is true that the farmer pays, only in the sense in which a man pays an annuity charged on an estate left to him ; and that his landlord allows for Tithes in the rent : but it is equally true, that during the continuance of the lease, whatever he can succeed in withdrawing from the minister by flattery, by deceit, or by intimidation, goes into (or rather, remains in) his own purse ;* for when I speak of Tithe falling on the landlord, it should be observed that during the current lease I re- gard the tenant as being, to all practical purposes, the landlord; it is he who is burdened by any augmentation, and benefited by any diminution of the Tithes, and he is therefore tempted to feel and call a grievous burden whatever he cannot succeed in withholding from the right owner ; he is tempted, in short, to hate the minister if * Hence it has been justly observed, that tithe-property is peculiarly liable to spoliation ; because there is a precise and definite object to tempt the cupidity of each particular tithe- payer ; — the division of the spoil is, as it were, ready made. z 2 340 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE he cannot succeed in defrauding him, and to despise him if he does. It will be remembered that I am not bringing a charge against indi- viduals, but against the tendency of the system. Secondly, an incumbent, who may be in many respects different from what a Christian minister should be, but who, from indolence, ignorance, timidity, or any other cause, accepts a grossly inadequate composition, is likely to be more popular than, perhaps, a successor who may be a model for pastors, but who will not, or cannot, perhaps, in justice to his family, afford to forego his just claim. This must be not only a hard- ship to the individual, but a great detriment to the cause of rehgion. Thirdly, the existing system leaves an opening for multifarious frauds : for instance, a man is presented to a Hving by the 'squire of the parish, on an understanding that he is to accept such and such a composition ; the landowner lets his land tithe free, paying himself, perhaps, less than half the value of the Tithes ; and the incumbent (as Paley observes) not only buys the living, but robs the succession to pay for it. Again — a Clergyman is leading a scandalous life. ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 341 and several of the parishioners are disposed to present him ; but they are almost all of them tenants of one great proprietor, who, for good and weighty reasons, shuts his eyes to every such representation, and will not allow any complaints to be made. How many cases of this kind have occurred, I cannot of course pronounce ; but one has come under my own observation. Again — I have known an instance of an incumbent com- pelled to take a very inadequate composition, by a threat from the sole proprietor of planting the whole parish with wood. And a loss, again, is often unavoidably incurred of revenue which fairly belongs to the incumbent, especially of a vicarage : small scattered occupations lying at a great distance from the parsonage are not of unfrequent occurrence to a very considerable amount ; and the occupiers know well enough that if the Tithes were to be set out, the expense of collecting them would exceed their worth ; they consequently pay just what they please. Lastly, the trouble and vexation to which an incumbent is often exposed in obtaining even a small part of his due, may be regarded as a serious deduction from his income, since (as 342 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE A. Smith observes) every thing of this kind may be estimated at as much money as a man would give to be exempted from it. But this vexation, though a loss to one party, is no gain to the other, except when it gratifies a malignant and spiteful feeling. Do not all the circumstances your Lordship has just stated apply much more strongly to a case in which the great bulk of the tithe-payers are of a different religion to the tithe-receivers, and therefore more prone to that species of opposition which you have described ? I should think that in most respects all those evils are greatly increased. In one respect it may be said that they are of less consequence, as far as individuals of a different religion are concerned ; because, whether he accepts a small or a large composition, or even whether he conducts himself well or ill, will make (it may be said) no difference in his moral influence over the Roman Catholics, who, at all events, are not under his ministry. At the same time I am not sure how far he may not be prevented by the circumstances which I have been detailing, from conveying to them some degree of religious, or, at least, of moral instruction. There is no ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 343 saying how much influence a Protestant Cler- gyman, if there is no obstacle in his way, may have over parishioners, even of another persuasion, who do not forsake their church, but nevertheless may listen to his inculcation of those moral duties which every form of Chris- tianity would alike enable him to inculcate, if they have no extraneous causes of prejudice against him. You stated an opinion, in your former examination, that Tithe falls upon Rent ; are you of opinion, then, that the landlord is not able to remunerate himself for that charge by the increased price of produce arising out of it? I believe that when Tithes have long existed they have no influence on the price of corn.* * It is incalculable how much confusion of thought per- vades the reasonings of most persons on the subject of Tithes. On the one hand, I remember some years ago an ingenious and plausible article appearing in a Review, and attracting, at the time, much notice ; in which, besides other fallacies, the whole of the writer's reasonings assumed throughout, by implication, that the tithe-owners consume^ personally, the tenth part of the produce of the land, so as to diminish by one-tenth the whole supply of provisions, &c. in the same manner as if so much corn were annually burned, like the spices said to be destroyed by the Dutch in former times. On 344 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Their effect in this respect appears to me to be no gi'eater than would follow if we suppose the Country in which they exist to have been originally somewhat smaller than it is, or to have had lakes covering certain districts which are actually fertile valleys. If England, again, had been larger than it is — if, for instance, the Godwin Sands were, and always had been, corn- fields, no one will maintain that corn would have been cheaper. We should have had rather more corn absolutely, and a rather larger popu- lation, and rather a larger aggregate amount of the other hand, I have known an intelligent and -weU-in- formed man in other respects, urge that the appointment, under the Mosaic Law, of the maintenance of the Levites by Tithes, though it confers do divine right, yet affords a pre- sumption that such a mode of maintenance is convenient and advisable. So it was, no doubt, in that Country and age : but to infer that the same must be always and every where ad- visable, is as rash as it would be to recommend the culture of the vine, olive, and fig-tree in Great Britain, because these flourish in Palestine. If, when the Israelites settled there, in a country so much too ample for their numbers that there was danger of '* the beasts of the field increasing on them," land had been allotted as an endowment for the Levites, the case would probably have resembled that of the Clergy -reserves in Upper Canada ; patches of useless forest, which of course no one will rmf, where uncleared land may be bought for next to nothing. ON TITHES IX IRELAND. 345 rent ; but the price of corn and the rate of rent would have been just what they are. So, if Kent had never existed, the population of England would have been less by the amount of the people in Kent ; the total rental of the kingdom would have been less by the rental of Kent; but the price of corn would have been just what it is. Without doubt, if Tithes were suddenly imposed on a country whose popula- tion had grown up in their absence, or if they were suddenly removed from a country in which they had previously existed, the price of corn would be affected. So if the people of Kent were to be removed into the remainder of England, and the whole county, with all its corn, immediately sunk into the sea, the price of corn would rise ; or if, again, the Godwin Sands were to be suddenly left bare by the sea, in a state fit for immediate cultivation, the price of corn would fall ; but by the time the popula- tion had adjusted itself to the new state of the supply of corn, the price would again rise to its ordinary level. I apprehend that the opinion that Tithes fall on the consumer is founded on a confusion of the immediate effects of the sudden 346 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE imposition of Tithes, or sudden removal of Tithes, with the ultimate and permanent effects of Tithes after they have long existed.* Have you any means of stating, from the information you have received in Ireland, what are the ultimate objects of those who have taken an active part in pro- moting the resistance to the payment of Tithes ? The ultimate object of many is, I have no doubt, simply to get rid of the Protestant esta- blishment : some without even a wish, others without a hope, of transferring its revenues to the Roman Catholic Church, but thinking only of gratifying hostile feelings. Others contem- plate, or profess to contemplate, the application of these revenues to the establishment of a fund for the relief of the poor ; some, perhaps, holding out the prospect of this supposed benefit merely as a lure, in order to induce Protestants to join in the opposition to Tithes ; but many, probably, are persons of sincere but mistaken benevolence, who, having never witnessed the effects of the pauper system in England, look only to the bright side of the question, and do not perceive * See Encyclop. Metrop., Art. Pol. Economy. ON TITHES IN IRELAND 347 the tendency of the system to produce far more distress than it alleviates, by diminishing in- dustry, forethought, and charity, and by de- grading the pauper into a condition approaching that of a slave, fed, not according to the value of his exertions, but to his wants, and accordingly impelled to labour only by the fear of punish- ment. I am convinced that if a fund for provid- ing legal rehef for the able-bodied poor could be raised even without robbing the Establishment, or instituting poor-rates, — if, for example, a rich gold mine were discovered in Ireland, and ap- propriated to that purpose, — the distress in that Country would be increased many fold. Do those who hold out an expectation of such a provision for the poor do it upon the principle of Church property being liable to it in justice or in law at present, or upon any general opinion they may entertain of the expediency of revising the system of Church property? From reports of speeches, and other articles in the newspapers, it would appear that some persons have taken the one ground and some the other. Do many Protestants in Ireland take the former ground ; namely, that of the Church property being liable in justice to that charge ? 348 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE As far as I have observed, (and of course I have seen only a few of those papers and speeches,) that appears to be rather the tone of the Roman Cathohc priesthood ; and the other ground is chiefly taken by the Protestants. At the close of your Grace's former examination, in answer to a question, whether there was any probability of your plan being generally effected so as to avoid the necessity of collecting in the mean time from the tenants or from the landlords whatever sum the composition may amount to; you stated that your immediate step would be in each district to transfer all the Church property at once into the hands of the boards, and that they should then proceed to get rid of Tithes according to the most convenient mode, and as gradually as might be wished: how would that proceeding to get rid of Tithes, if done gradually, supersede the necessity of collecting them in the mean time ? Certainly it would not supersede the necessity of collecting in the mean time whatever was due to the Church. What means do you conceive the boards would have of collecting those Tithes which the incumbent has not ? None that the incumbent has not or might not have given to him. Then how would the difficulty be removed of getting ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 319 over the intermediate time with reference to the present resistance ? I did not propose it as a mode of getting rid of the immediate resistance, which indeed did not exist when the plan first occurred to me ; but I apprehend that it would tend to diminish the immediate resistance by the prospect held out of placing the Church property upon a system of commutation, if Government would, at the same time, evince a vigorous determina- tion to support the existing rights of the Clergy. Your Grace would, therefore, think it necessary, that during the time necessary for establishing the plan, Tithe or the composition for Tithe should be fully collected for the benefit of the Clergy ? I must repeat that the whole of my plan was drawn out long before this resistance to Tithes took place, and without any particular reference to Ireland. Your Grace's plan, therefore, even supposing it fit to be adopted, would not diminish the difficulties in the present state of Ireland on account of the resistance to the payment of Tithes ? No otherwise than so far as the prospect held out of removing the grievance of Tithes, as an 350 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE interference, or a supposed interference, with the proper cultivation of the land, might induce those whose minds are irritated by that impres- sion to withdraw their opposition. Would not the first step in your Grace's plan be, supposing the whole property was placed in the hands of boards, to estabhsh a compulsory composition for Tithes, which would be necessary in order to settle the amount to be paid to each particular incumbent ; and would not the ultimate object be the conversion into land of those Tithes so ascertained in money value ? The former part of the plan might, I think, be adopted with great advantage, though the latter were deferred, or even totally rejected. It was not merely with a view to the commutation of Tithe for land that I proposed it, but as bene- ficial even though no such commutation should take place. If the Tithes were actually collected in kind, I think it would be a great advantage that they should be collected by any one rather than by the clerical incumbent. My first object was to remove all money transactions between the parson and the parishioners ; and I think that even if all property remained exactly upon the same footing as it does now, as far as the ON TITHES IN IKKLAND. 351 question of payment goes, a great step would be gained, if the Clergyman were put upon a foot- ing with the fellow of a college. Some colleges possess Tithes to a considerable amount — if their tithe-payers are refractory, of course they desire them to set out the Tithes in kind ; and if any disagreement takes place, it is still between the college and the payers, but not with the individual fellows, who have not the management of the transaction. Much would be gained, in the removal of irritation, by the introduction of a similar system, even if the Tithes remained in kind which now are taken in kind, arid were compounded for where they are now com- pounded for. The Church property, just as it is, might be transferred into the hands of these corporations or boards, and they might then be left to make such arrangements as they found most convenient in each particular instance. One of the great evils of Church property, whether Tithes or land, in the hand of the in- cumbent, as a corporation sole, is, that he can- not make a permanent lease, or in fact make any durable arrangements, however convenient or even necessary. That would be got over, even 352 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE if no other change were made, by having corpora- tions aggregate substituted for corporations sole ; they could then be empowered by parliament to bind their successors, which has been attempted in various ways, but I think not in any other safe way. Do you think that the throwing the burden of the Tithes in the first instance upon the landlord is a neces- sary ingredient in the success of your plan ? I have not fully considered that point ; and probably in Ireland there would be more inte- rests to be considered than in England, and there might be difficulties of detail which the recency of my acquaintance with the nature of Irish holdings makes me unfit to discuss. Land is often let and underlet two or three times over. If any scheme of commutation were adopted, the different interests must be adjusted by the most equitable scheme that parliament could devise, enforced by some compulsory measure, so as to allot to each person a fair compensation ; but I am not prepared to enter into the details of such an arrangement. It would, in fact, require a long act of parhament. ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 353 Your Grace thinks it necessary that, previous to the establishment of any such plan, means should be found of indemnifying the Clergy for the losses they have sustained hitherto from the non-payment of Tithe ; do you limit that to the arrears that now exist, or do you extend it to the arrears that would be incurred previous to the general enforcement of the payment of Tithes which you think would be the probable consequence of placing the whole property in the hands of the boards ? I have contemplated the payment of only the present arrears ; but if resistance should con- tinue, and the arrears accumulate after the adoption of the measures which I proposed, further steps must be taken to meet that emer- gency. But I have already expressed my hope that a prospect of commutation, and an apparent determination on the part of Government to enforce the payment of the present arrears, will bring the tithe-payers to reason. I have already mentioned to the Committee the opinion ex- pressed to me by several of the Clergy who best knew the state of the Country, that the mere offer by Government to purchase the arrears would, in most cases, save them the necessity of availing themselves of it ; that the parish- ioners would come round, if they saw that the A A 354 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Government was disposed to support them in any effectual manner. Does it seem probable that if resistance is made to the half-yearly payment of Tithes at present, resistance would not be made to calling in arrears, which would, in some cases, amount to tw^o years' Tithe ? Certainly, resistance v^ould be made if the same parties required payment, and they had only the same means of enforcing it; but I proposed that the demander should be a dif- ferent person, — ^the Government, in the cha- racter of purchaser of the existing arrears. It has been suggested, from time to time, that Go- vernment should purchase all the Tithes, and for ever pay yearly stipends to the ministers, as has been done in some parts of Europe. I was never friendly to such a proposal, and I allude to it now only to show that my proposal of purchasing the existing arrears is not a perfectly new suggestion. Then your Grace's proposal goes to this, that Govern- ment should take upon itself the collection of existing arrears, or the arrears that might accrue before the plan should be put into execution ; but that the moment the whole property of the Church should be vested in the ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 355 boards, it should be the boards, and the boards alone, that should be charged with the collection of the Tithe ? The boards alone should be charged with the collection, and they should be armed with suf- ficient powers. Many of my Clergy have stated to me, that the power now enjoyed by the parson is insufficient. If I answer, that the Lord-lieutenant is ready (as I have always found) to do all that the law allows him, they reply, that if the assistance which the present law enables him to give is ineffectual, the law should be altered. Of course they do not agree as to the details of the provisions they propose ; one has suggested one plan and one another. Does not the law which prevents any person from breaking open a padlock to distrain cattle, effectually prevent the distraining of those cattle? It certainly does so in most instances. Could either the Boards or the Government effectually distrain those cattle as long as that law exists ? I do not know of any way in which they could. Another contrivance is resorted to, that of turn- ing out their cattle to feed by night, and shut- ting them up in the daytime ; sometimes they A A 2 356 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE place men upon the neighbouring hills, to watch for those who come to enforce a distress, and give notice by blowing horns. Is not the law the same with reference to landlords distraining ? I believe so ; and I have no doubt they will feel the effects of it before long. If a successful resistance is made to one kind of payment, I think it is almost inevitable that it will be ex- tended to another. Does your Grace continue to think that your plan would be desirable, notwithstanding the difficulties which must occur between this legislative enactment and its ulti- mate adoption? I do not mean to say that there will not be great difficulties, but I do not see how they could be avoided in any other plan. You have suggested the immediate or the speedy transfer of all ecclesiastical property to corporations in certain districts : do not you apprehend that the same difficulties would exist, if not in an increased degree, with respect to the collection of Tithes, as long as Tithes continued, that now exists with respect to individual Clergymen ? I should think that difficulties might still exist ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 357 under the present excited state of men's feelings, even after that transfer should have been made. I did not propose the measure as a sufficient remedy for the existing opposition to Tithes. For instance, an individual Clergyman is at liberty to accept, and in most instances generally does accept, a considerably less sum than the real value of the Tithes ; would a corporation, acting as a trustee, consider itself at liberty to take any thing less than the real estimated value ? That must depend, of course, upon the pro- visions of the Act. From all I have heard from the Clergy I have consulted, they would be very ready to take what they have hitherto been ac- customed to receive, and to be contented with. If the act therefore were so framed as to autho- rize the corporations to take less than the real tenth of the gross produce, which would be very fair, because the tenth of the gross produce would be often something enormously greater than our ancestors contemplated to be given to the Clergy, I do not think the Clergy would be likely to complain. Could they possibly exercise the same discretion with regard to lowering their^demands that incumbents do ? 358 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Of course not the same absolute discretion; and I think in many cases the incumbents have improperly suffered the Church property to be encroached upon. The occurrence of this in some instances, and not in others, would present a difficulty in detail. Would not the necessity of keeping up a certain standard of payment rather increase than diminish the existing dissatisfaction to the payment of Tithe? The necessity of adhering to any undeviating standard would create difficulty wherever such a necessity existed ; but I do not foresee greater difficulties in the execution of the plan which I have suggested than are constantly encountered and surmounted in the case of inclosure-bills, when land is awarded instead of Tithe. Is there not, in the case of an inclosure, one individual who has to look after his own interest, and who is there- fore less likely to accept an inadequate compensation than such a corporation as you propose, who are to manage affairs in which they have themselves no personal interest ? It certainly is the business of the incumbent to look after his own interest ; but on the other hand he has often to contend with his inaptitude ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 359 for business, and often, with the dread of offend- ing his parishioners, and the fear of impairing his own ministerial usefulness. You are aware that, in the case of Inclosure Acts, the proportion generally adopted is an eighth of the land : if any rule of that sort were adopted, would it not tend rather to increase the dissatisfaction than to diminish it ? Any undeviating rule must be inconvenient. Must not a rule of the sort alluded to in the last ques- tion establish upon the whole a higher average for the payment of Tithes than at present exists ? If any rule were established likely to occasion too high a demand on the part of the Church, of course some abatement must be made. And I am convinced that the Clergy would, for the most part, find themselves more comfortable if they even received a less amount of income than they at present do. You are aware that trustees, such as you have proposed, could not take less than the value, unless there was an authority given by Act of Parliament : do you think that the Clergy would be satisfied to leave it to trustees to put a value upon their j)roperty ? I am not prepared to say that ; but I have met with a great many Clergymen who have 360 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE conceived that they should be better off, if not in point of nominal revenue, yet at least in peace and comfort, if some such plan as the one now proposed were adopted. Many of the Clergy in Ireland have told me that they \vould be very glad to get any thing; since, in the present state of things, they have no chance, except at the risk of their lives, or even with that risk, of obtaining any maintenance at all. Would not the people of Ireland object just as much to pay the Tithes to the proposed boards as to the indi- vidual Clergy? The prospect of commutation for land would, I trust, diminish their objection to the payment of Tithe in the mean time. Do not you think the commutation for land in the hands of each individual incumbent may be effected without the machinery of establishing a corporation ? I should much prefer that to Tithes ; but I think there is a very great disadvantage in the holding of land by an individual, — a corporation sole, — with a bare life interest, and no voice in the appointment of his successor. Considering the great objection that is now made to the collection of Tithes, do you think that Church ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 361 property can be ever thoroughly secured till that property is commuted for land, and Tithe is forgotten ? I think nothing would conduce so much to its security as commutation for land; it seems to me the more secure and the less troublesome kind of property. By means of a composition in the first place, and then by corn rent in the next place, and then ultimately by commutation for land ; might not that be done without the establishment of a corporation ? I suppose it might be done ; but it seems to me that it would be more easily done by means of corporations-aggregate, and would be a better endowment when it was done. Your Grace will observe that your plan of a corpora- tion would not embrace any provision for the Tithes in the hands of lay impropriators : do you think that any mode of arrangement of the tithe system would be satis- factory unless it embraced the lay impropriators ? I think it would ; I do not see the same neces- sity of interfering with the lay impropriators, since they can help themselves; they can make permanent arrangements. The inability of the clerical tithe owner to do this, is, next to their moral evils, the principal inconvenience of clerical 362 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Tithes. It occasions the necessity of forming a new agreement with every new incumbent ; and the farmers often suffer from the very circum- stance of a Clergyman having long received much less than his due. When that has been the case for a considerable period, there is a tendency to a rise of rent, not quite equal indeed to the diminution of Tithe, but still bearing some relation to it. A change occurs in the incumbency ; a much larger composition for Tithe is required ; and the farmer finds himself engaged to pay a rent which, under the altered circumstances of the case, has become excessive. And the misfortune is, that in nine cases out of ten, he casts the blame, not on his own impru- dence, or on the exactions of his landlord, or on the carelessness of the former rector, but on the * avarice of the new rector; who is in fact the only person perfectly blameless. I do not mean to infer from all this, that, except by getting rid of the evils and incon- veniences which have been mentioned, no ad- vantage would arise from commutation of Tithe ; for though, where Tithes have long existed, they do not influence the price of corn, or its abun- ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 363 dance in proportion to the number of the people, yet, as I have already said, their removal would unquestionably produce present reUef. It would for a time occasion food to be more abundant and cheaper, and would increase the effectual demand for agricultural labour. In the present state of England, this temporary relief might be turned to inestimable advantage; it might be made use of for the purpose of amending both the provisions and the administration of our poor-laws ; amendments essential, not merely to the welfare, but almost to the continuance among us of civilized society. But it is to be observed that this relief would in great measure be afforded by the adoption of the first part of my plan ; the constituting the different benefices in each district into corporations-aggregate, with powers of leasing for long periods, and of bind- ing themselves and their successors by their contracts. It is the impossibility of doing this that, principally, if not solely, occasions Tithes to interfere with the progress of agriculture. No tax on the mere rent of land has any such effect ; nor do Tithes, (as I observed before) when held in fee-simple, differ much from a tax or rent. It 364 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE is the interest of the tithe owner to take, and to bind his successor to take, whatever the land- holder can afford, (how much soever less than an actual tenth,) rather than impede cultivation, and thus kill the hen that lays the golden eggs. Sufficiently long leases can be granted by an impropriator ; and the same could be done by a corporation-aggregate, empowered to grant long leases ; thouo^h it cannot be done bv a rector or vicar under our existing institutions, or under any other safe modification of them that I can think of. It is for this reason that I do not pro- pose legislating in respect to lay impropriators. Might not that be remedied by giving the Clergy a power of binding their successors for twenty-one years, with the approbation of the bishop ? It has been proposed very frequently; but there have been objections to it stated which have induced those who have thought most of it to consider the plan unadvisable. Without casting any imputations upon the character of individuals, it has been suggested, in answer, that it is each person's interest to find any con- trivance for raising an income during his own ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 365 time, or gaining some oblique and incidental advantage at the expense of the hving.* Your Grace has said that there is a deficiency in the law for the enforcement of the payment of Tithes : will you be good enough to point out what that deficiency is ? I have not had complaints brought to me of this or that particular defect in the law, but of its general inefficiency. Is not it rather from the difliiculty of carrying into execution the existing laws than any defect in those laws ? A law cannot have a greater defect than the impossibihty of carrying it into execution. When applications have been made to the Lord- lieutenant for assistance, the answer has been returned, that he is ready to give them all the assistance the law afifords, and that he can do no more. They have said, if that be the case, there ought to be some modification of the law which will render it more effectual. For instance, they have complained that the pohce are not * It is sufficiently proved by the example of the see-lands, that while it never can be the interest of a tenant to offer, for the renewal of a lease, more than it is worth, it is often the interest of the ecclesiastical landlord to accept much less. 366 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE authorized to assist them in any way, but merely to proceed against those that break the peace. Does not the difficulty of enforcing Tithes arise from a conspiracy against Tithes in Ireland ? I do not suppose that any alteration of the law would at once put down the existing resist- ance ; but it might be expedient, as allowing less facility for combining to evade or break it. Has it occurred to your Grace that there would be great difficulty in carrying into effect any law of that sort? Certainly ; we are beset by difficulties. In a letter which I read upon my last examination, a case was mentioned of a Clergyman who pro- ceeded by law against his parishioners, and ob- tained a decision in his favour. When the decree was made, he was informed that every means would be resorted to that the law would allow, for finding subterfuges and evading the payment of his claim, and would be defrayed out of a parish purse ; and he suggested that there was something defective in the law, though he did not explain precisely what alterations would have made it effectual. ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 367 As that would have been an indictable conspiracy, would not the only difficulty have been in convicting the parties of that conspiracy ? That would have been one difficulty. You stated that no assistance had been afforded to the Clergy in the recovery of their Tithes: is not your Grace aware, that whenever it has been stated to the Government, or to the local authorities, that the persons employed in serving process were in danger, protection was afforded to them in the execution of that duty ? The complaint has been, not so much of the want of protection, as of the want of assistance in carrying off the cattle. The cattle have been distrained, and in their way from one place to another they have been waylaid and rescued wherever an opportunity offered. Do you know whether in those cases application was made for a force to protect the driving away of cattle ? In some instances I know that the persons employed in effecting a distress have applied for and obtained that assistance ; but they have complained that when cattle have been distrained and rescued., and, in searching the villages in pursuit of the offenders, they have seen the cattle which they had actually distrained, and 368 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE pointed them out to the police, the answer has been, We have no right to touch those ; we have nothing to do with the cattle ; we are in pursuit of the offenders who have broken the peace." I have never heard of any complaint against the pohce as being unwilling to act in apprehending offenders. You were understood to say that the Act of Parliament might be so arranged as to give those commissioners the power of reducing the legal demand for Tithe in cases where it might be considered by them expedient to do so? They certainly must have that power. In cases like those of the nursery grounds near London, where the Tithe actually taken is half a guinea an acre, and the annual gross produce is worth two hundred times as much, it would be absurd to demand a tenth of the gross produce. Do you think that provisions might be made to guard such a power effectually against abuse ? I think they might be made, though it might not be an easy task. But it seems to me that the benefit of the proposed commutation would be so great that it would be worth purchasing at ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 369 the expense of considerable difficulty and a great deal of labour in the details. Do you think the Clergy would not object to leaving such a power in the hands of a board of that kind ? The most judicious of them that I have con- sulted, have said that they would be glad to see some plan like that v^hich I have proposed adopted. Is it not one of the great evils of the present tithe sys- tem, that it is very unequally collected, that a contrast often takes place between one parish and another, in conse- quence of there being too great a relaxation of the demand in one case, and too severe an exercise of the right in another ? That evil occurs even where there is no severity, and when the demand in both parishes is below the legal rate ; yet, because one incum- bent is more lenient than the other, the one taking perhaps half his due, and the other only a third, instead of the man who is paying only half his Tithe returning thanks for it, he murmurs because the other pays still less. Is it one of the advantages you contemplate by the plan you have proposed, that the church property being B B 370 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE managed upon an uniform principle, those inequalities would be done away with ? I do not hope that the chief benefit of it will be obtained till the commutation for land has been effected. We must expect inequalities even in the amount in different parishes of that commutation; but those inequalities v^ill take place once for all; the people will not be re- minded of them year after year; and in time the whole of the burden and grievance, real and imaginary, of Tithes, will be forgotten. Your Grace was understood to say that the plan you have described was a plan you formed some time ago, without any reference to Ireland? Without any particular reference to Ireland. Has your Grace, since you have been in Ireland, con- sidered the means of carrying such a plan into effect there ? I have ; but I have not had time to consider sufficiently the peculiar circumstances of the holding of land in Ireland, from which I appre- hend there might be more difficulties in the detail, on account of the number of the persons interested in the land; and I dare say there ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 371 would be many who would complain, because each of the parties concerned (as in the case of a road or a canal) puts forth his own claim in the strongest possible manner, and clamours loudly in order to get the most he can. It is probable, therefore, that there might thence be particular difficulties in Ireland : but to counter- balance that, I think the measure is more strongly called for in Ireland ; I think it is quite as well worth the trouble it would cost, as in England. With respect to the collection of arrears, has your Grace ever considered the means by which the Govern- ment would be able to effect that collection ? Several have occurred to me, but I considered it was rather out of my province to enter into the details of steps to be taken by the executive. I have already remarked, that as it is well known to have been a plan entertained by many states- men to purchase the Tithes once for all of the Clergy, it is evidently nothing extavagant to propose that they should purchase the existing arrears. Were those plans proposed in a state of things at all B B 2 372 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE similar to the present, and where the resistance to Tithe had become so general ? No ; nor did I ever approve of such a plan : but it is on account of the existing state of things that I propose the measure, because I think it is necessary to reassure the minds of the friends of the Estabhshment, and indeed to satisfy both parties, of the determination of Government to put down lawless violence, and secure to the creditor his just debt. It is not a mere question of Tithe or no Tithe, but of Government or no Government. Have you ever considered the amount of force that would be required to be put into the hands of the Govern- ment for such a purpose, and the manner in which it must be subdivided? It seems to me, that the resistance would be very much lessened, and would in a great many districts be entirely done away, when it was once understood that it was the determination of Government so to proceed. There is a strong feeling in many parts of Ireland that the Govern- ment are, as it were, by-standers, leaving the Clergy to recover their Tithes as they can, and that they care very little which party succeeds ; — ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 373 that the Clergy have the laws, and are to make the best of them, and get their Tithes as they can. And in many instances they have a sort of general impression that Government is against Tithes ; which has arisen, I apprehend, from the idea that Government is favourable to a commu- tation of Tithes. This is as gross a blunder as if the contemplation of an alteration in the law had been equivalent to a sanction of the breaking the law ; — as if the actual power of the existing parliament, for instance, was supposed to be destroyed by the proposal of a reformed parlia- ment. But still that sort of confusion of thought does exist in people's minds; and I think the removal of that, by evincing a determination in Government to use effectual means for securing their property, and making the arrears a govern- ment-debt, would put down opposition in most instances. I mean, that many, as soon as they found that Government had transferred the debt to themselves, would come to terms. Has your Grace ascertained, with a view to the resist- ance that might be continued, what would be the extent of force that would be required, and the manner of employing it, and the extent to which it must be sub- divided ? 374 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE It must depend upon the extent of the resis- tance, which in fact has extended, since I left Ireland, to many parts where it did not before exist. If it were to extend much more widely, I cannot of course pretend to say what amount of force would be necessary to put it down, and how far it might be necessary to call in other aids than the regular troops. Has not the prompt interference of Government, wherever it has been called upon to enforce the law, had any effect in removing the impression which your Grace states to prevail so unfortunately with respect to the feel- ing on the part of the executive power ? I should hope that it has in some instances ; but notwithstanding that, I have seen complaints actually in the papers of the atrocious conduct of some soldiers, in daring to purchase any cattle that were branded as tithe cattle, as if open to censure from Government for so doing. There is a feeling of the kind I have mentioned among many, both of the one party and of the other. If the friends of the Establishment themselves think that Government intends to favour the lawless demands of the resisters to Tithes, it is certainly, I should think, not prudent in them to ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 375 put forth that impression, and thus to strengthen the persuasion which encourages the opponents in that resistance : still I cannot but say that it is done to a considerable extent. Does not that impression appear to have been created by publications in newspapers ? I think the publications in newspapers are partly the cause and partly the effect. Is it not the fact, however, that the Government, whenever apphed to, have always furnished the neces- sary force, as far as they were able to do so? Of course the Government has not been enabled in every instance to send troops with sufficient promptitude ; but no instance has come to my knowledge of their refusing to make all the force they had available to the utmost extent. Are you aware of any other means which the Govern- ment could have used, under the existing law, in order to counteract the unfortunate impression which you state to have gone abroad ? In many places I understand that applications have been made to employ the yeomanry ; stating that the military were insufficient, and 376 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE that there were many persons ready to recruit the numbers of the yeomanry, and only wanting a supply of arms. Have you had any opportunity of observing the effect of employing the yeomanry ? I can only speak from report upon that sub- ject: but it is a measure I should very much deprecate, if any other effectual means could be resorted to; because, if a contest takes place between the regular soldiers and the rioters, a good deal of bloodshed indeed might ensue, but afterwards, when the country becomes tranquil- lized, those soldiers are removed, and the feeling in a great measure subsides ; whereas, if those employed to put down the rioters are persons living in the neighbourhood, the feelings of the people, from all I can collect respecting the character of the lower orders of Irish, are such, that they will cherish the most rancorous spirit of revenge, not only against the individuals who have been instrumental in putting to death any relations or connexions of theirs, but even against the most distant connexions of those individuals. In fact, I know no civil war that seems to me so ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 377 dreadful as that in which the inhabitants of the same neighbourhood are employed against each other. If, therefore, resistance could be put down by the regular troops from any distant parts, it would be far preferable. Do you contemplate in your arrangement that the same gross amount of Tithes should be levied as at present ? I had not contemplated any difference in amount ; my attention had been confined to an alteration in the mode of payment. You do not mean, then, that any alteration should take place in the amount of incomes attached to the several benefices ? It was not part of my contemplation, but I am not prepared to say that should not take place. You do not contemplate that any alteration should take place of the duties and labours to be performed by the several incumbents ? I have not taken that branch of the subject into consideration, but I am not prepared to say that it should not be. You have alluded to an impression that has gone abroad, that the Government do not give that assistance 378 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE to the Clergy which they ought to do in the collection of their Tithes : do you think the Clergy have any more right to require the assistance of the Government in the collection of their Tithes than the landlords have in the collection of their rent ? Not the least ; nor do I understand that they have ever put forth themselves any stronger claim than every creditor has on his debtor. Have you ever had any difficulty in the collection of the Tithes attached to the see of Dublin ? I have collected so very small a quantity, if any, that I can scarcely speak. I have not had any difficulty ; but it is a mere trifle that I have received. Is not the income attached to the see of Dublin chiefly from church land ? It is. Does your Grace know whether your predecessor ex- perienced any difficulty in collecting those Tithes ? I have not heard that he did. It appears from the return to the House of Commons in 1824, that the number of acres attached to the see of Dublin was 28,781 ? That is a higher estimate by a great deal than I have ever seen ; but having been so short a ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 379 time there, I am very little acquainted with the property. Mr. Palmer, who has been summoned before the Committee, is my agent, and is of course much better acquainted with the property than I am. Is your Grace aware at what period in Ireland the church revenue ceased to be divided into four parts ; namely, one part given to the Bishop, one to the Clergy, one to the poor, and the other to the building and repairing of churches? I am not aware of the existence of any such division. Are you not aware, that up to the period of the Re- formation that division took place ? I never heard of it. I am, however, but little acquainted with the circumstances of the Eccle- siastical History of Ireland. Can you state the number of Protestant communicants of the Church of England in the see of Dublin? I have had returns of the Protestant commu- nicants; but I do not consider that as at all affording a fair ground for estimating the pro- portion of Protestants ; the numbers of those who attend the communion regularly, of those 380 mNUTES OF EVIDENCE who attend irregularly, and of those who neglect it altogether, is so extremely variable in different parishes. Have you ever seen any returns of the proportion that the Presbyterians in the north of Ireland bear to the Church of England? I have merely heard it spoken of in the course of conversation, but I have never had any exact returns. The usual way which I find has been adopted of estimating the proportion of members of the Church of Ireland has always struck me, and has been acknowledged to me by the Clergy, to be extremely fallacious ; that of reckoning by the number of communicants : because there is hardly a Roman Catholic that does not attend mass, whereas a great number of the members of the Establishment do absent themselves, some constantly, and others occasionally, from the communion. It appears that the calculation of the number of Pro- testants, in the evidence given by Leslie Foster before the Committee of the House of Commons, was founded upon calculations of the number of children of the EstabHshed Church in the Education Report, and they were then estimated at 871,000: do you know what ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 381 proportion the Presbyterians bear to those that are attached to the Church of England in Ireland ? I do not; my own diocese has but a small proportion of them, and I have not made any particular inquiries, as I have had more than enough occupation in ascertaining the circum- stances of my own diocese. Have you had any return of the number of beneficed Clergy, with reference to the number of Protestants in the diocese? I have some such documents, but not with me. I have returns of all the beneficed Clergy, and I have seen returns of the population ; but the proportion of Protestants I have not been able to ascertain with any degree of certainty. I should mention, however, one circumstance ; that, to my knowledge, there are a great number of nominal Roman Catholics who receive not a little religious instruction from the Protestant Clergyman. In some parishes there are many Roman Catholics, in others very few, and in others none at all, that enjoy this advantage. The Roman Catholic children are, in many schools, taught, by the Clergymen of the Esta- 382 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE blishment, though not the Church of England Catechism, nor any points of doctrine that might raise scruples in their minds ; but still they derive benefit from his instructions in ex- plaining those parts of Scripture which do not lead to controversial points : I have been a wit- ness of that myself. I mention this, because it might be supposed that the Clergyman of the Establishment is of no benefit at all to any Roman Catholic, under any circumstances ; and I have ascertained the contrary. With reference to the collection of Tithes by the police ; has it ever been pointed out to you that there is an Act of Parliament, of 7 & 8 Geo. IV., which expressly prevents the police from interfering in the collection of Tithes ? I know perfectly well that they are not au- thorized by law to do so ; and I beheve that is generally understood; but this, it is urged, shows that either the law or the system pursued should be altered. Then what is required of the Government is to have a new law upon the subject? That has been proposed by several that have made complaints to me. ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 383 Are there any parishes in your Grace's diocese in which there are no churches at all? There are several benefices, consisting of three or four parishes united, with only one church ; there are also some single parishes without any church. Are the people in those instances obliged to attend divine service in the neighbouring parish ? Yes ; or divine service is performed in a barn or in a school-house ; several instances of that have come to my knowledge : and, in other cases, means are in the course of being used for building a church. Do you know, in those parishes, what proportion the Protestants bear to the Catholics ? It is usually where there is a small Protestant population that the people are destitute of a church ; but frequently I have known ministers have a great deal to do, nevertheless, from their Protestant parishioners being scattered about in extensive mountain districts. Is it intended to build churches in those parishes where none exist at present? 384 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE In several there are actually churches in pro- gress ; and in others they are intended. Is that without reference to the proportions of the CathoHc and Protestant population ? It is only where they expect that there will be a congregation enough to make it worth while, and the want is found to be pressing. In other cases they are usually left to resort to the neigh- bouring church. What amount of congregation would be sufficient to authorize the building of a church ? I have never had that stated to me. In some instances a very small and cheap church has been proposed; sometimes a church has been built in one parish, in which there has been a small population, and yet a considerable con- gregation has attended from other parishes, so situated as to be enabled to resort to it with convenience. Has your Grace any means of judging of the correct- ness of a statement that has been made, that wherever churches have been built, Protestant congregations have been found ? I have understood that frequently that has ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 385 taken place, where it was not expected that a congregation would have been found : my ex- perience has not been long enough to speak from my own knowledge ; but I have heard this stated in many instances, where I have had every reason to believe it true. Your Grace has said that the Catholic parishioners, in some instances, receive religious instruction from the Protestant Clergymen : has your Grace opportunities of knowing in what light the Protestant Clergy generally are regarded by their Roman Catholic parishioners, independently of the present excitement which is pro- duced by this question of Tithe? I have been very much struck by dissimila- rities in that respect, which I have been at a loss to account for. Much, I imagine, must depend upon the character, not only of the Protestant Clergyman, but also of the Roman Catholic priest; for I have known instances of different parishes, not far from Dublin, in each of which there shall have been a serious and active, and, as far as I have been able to judge, a judicious and well-conducted minister of the Establish- ment; in one of them, all the Roman Catholic children shall have been removed from his c c 386 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE schools, through the influence of the priest ; in another, scarcely any shall have been removed ; a great number attend, and the efforts of the priest are either not directed, or are directed unsuccessfully, against his instruction of them, — not, indeed, in the peculiar tenets of the Church of England, but in the knowledge of Scripture generally. It appears to me, that it can only be accounted for, in many instances at least, by a difference in the characters of the Roman Ca- tholic priests ; but I am not prepared to say what other causes there may be that occasion the difference, which has often struck me with great surprise. I am in the course of an inquiry respecting that very point; endeavouring, I mean, to ascertain how it comes that the recep- tion of the Clergymen of the Establishment is so very different in different parishes. Does your Grace understand that it is the general habit of the Clergy of the Establishment, where they have the means, to show personal kindness and charity to the Catholic inhabitants of the parish ? It certainly is, in all cases that have come to my knowledge. In many I have ascertained that they have been liberal in relieving their ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 387 wants, without (as far as I have observed) any distinction between Protestant and Roman Ca- tholic. And that the relief is willingly accepted by the Catholic from the Clergyman of a different persuasion ? I know that it is in general ; I am not pre- pared to say that it has never been objected to. Does your Grace think, that, supposing the Protestant religion were entirely abolished in parts of Ireland where Roman Catholicism prevails, and its revenues either taken away or transferred to another set of Clergy, that the population of that part of Ireland would suffer by it in point of comfort ? I should be sorry to say any thing derogatory to the character of the Roman Catholic priests ; but frequently, where they are of a lower de- scription of men than the ministers of the Esta- blishment, it is possible, that if such persons found themselves not dependent on the con- cihation of their parishioners, their conduct might not be so good, in these respects, as that of the ministers of the Establishment. I have scarcely enough knowledge, however, of the Roman Catholic priests to say, decidedly, what their general conduct would be. 388 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE If the Protestant Clergy were removed without being replaced at all, would it be a great loss, in a temporal point of view, to those parts of Ireland where there are few or no Protestants ? I should think that in many instances it would deteriorate the condition of the people in respect of civilization ; because I have observed a sort of nucleus of civilization, as it were, formed by the house of a Clergyman, who is perhaps the only gentleman within a considerable distance, and frequently the only one at least who takes as much care as many of the Clergy do, in afford- ing instruction, in promoting cleanliness, in en- couraging the progress of the arts of life, in improving the domestic habits of the parishioners, and in reheving their bodily wants. All that I personally know upon this subject relates to the Clergy in the immediate neighbourhood of Dublin : of other parts of the country I can in general speak only from report. Has your Grace heard of any particular occasions of distress in the Country, in which the Clergy of the Establishment have been eminently useful to the popula- tion by their liberality ? I have heard innumerable instances, — and ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 389 those not brought forward boastingly, but which have come to my knowledge incidentally, — of the very great and meritorious exertions of some of the Protestant Clergy ; even of many of them who are commonly regarded as the most bigoted against the Romish religion. I have found persons bearing this character, nevertheless active in relieving the temporal wants of Roman Catholics, and liberal to them, in many cases, even beyond their means. Then does your Grace think that the money expended by Protestant Clergymen in Ireland is expended bene- ficially to the country? As far as my experience goes, I should say certainly it is ; but I am not able to answer for other dioceses. There may be parts of the country where a very different state of society may prevail ; but so far as my own experience of Dublin and its neighbourhood goes, I should certainly say so. Have not the Catholic priests less means of affording relief than the Protestant Clergy ? I have not been able to ascertain correctly what their general revenues are. I have indeed 390 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE heard statements ; but I am loth to repeat any thing which I have not had an opportunity of verifying. The reports which have come to me have stated their income a great deal higher than I had any conception of, as from 100/. to 600/. per annum ; but I am totally unable to authen- ticate those statements. Have you ever heard that the general average is about 200L to 2501. SL year ? I have not heard any accounts I could suf- ficiently rely upon. It should be remembered, however, that they are necessarily single men. Are you aware that Mr. Leslie Foster estimated that the annual income derived from Tithes by the parochial Clergy of Ireland amounts to 600,000/. ? I may have heard that statement, but I do not recollect it. And that the glebe lands amount to 83,000 acres, valued at 1/. an acre? There are many lands known to have been originally such, but which are not in the pos- session of the Clergy, though they even bear the title of glebe. ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 391 Have not the Protestant Clergy much greater means of being charitable to the people than the Catholic Clergy ? I have already declared my inability to say what the income of the Catholic Clergy is : but I have heard, from sources that I think I can rely upon, that their income has considerably in- creased of late years ; that they receive larger dues than they used to do. Is there any thing in the nature of the Catholic priesthood that would prevent them from being equally charitable with the Protestant if they had the same means ? I do not know that there is, except cases where they may happen to be worse educated, and a lower description of people. Is not that mainly to be attributed to the incomes of the parishes being less? That circumstance would probably conduce to such an effect. So that if they were in the possession of Tithes, which in fact did once belong to the Roman Catholic Church, to the same amount that the Protestants now enjoy them, they would probably be equally charitable, and equally attentive to the wants of the Irish population ? 392 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE I have no reason to think that they would not give away as much among their parishioners. Is not there a Roman Catholic priest in every parish? More than one, in a good many.* Your Grace has stated, as one of the objections to Tithes being in the hands of individual incumbents, the jealousies which are created in different parishes on account of the greater or less strictness with which the Tithes are collected ? Not merely between different parishes, but between different individuals in the same parish. If one man happens to have a better crop, and another a worse, some particular year, when there is a general rate of composition laid down, the one who has the worse crop complains of paying at the same rate with his neighbour, though it may not be in itself an exorbitant payment, but perhaps even much below the legal rate. Do not the same causes of discontent exist, not only between the tenants of different landlords, but between * It is to be observed, however, that it is common to find one Roman Catholic parish comprising several Protestant parishes held by distinct incumbents. ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 393 the different tenants of the same landlord, with respect to the payment of their rent ? Something of the kind may take place. Is not this therefore equally an objection to the col- lection of all rent by all persons ? It is an objection to bringing the Clergyman and his parishioners in any way in contact in pecuniary transactions. Is there any peculiar objection upon this ground in the case of the Clergyman, which does not apply to the case of the landlord and his tenant? Yes, certainly ; because the tenant, if he has any cause to complain, when his lease is out may throw up his farm; whereas the tithe-payer must pay his tithe. The tenant has accepted his lease as a benefit ; and he pays a rent which he himself voluntarily offered to pay. The case of the tithe-payer is very different. I may complain that my landlord has not abated the rent as he should ; but I have originally offered to pay it. You have stated that in all instances which have fallen within your knowledge, the Government has been ready to afford assistance to individual Clergymen ? 394 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE I do not mean to say that assistance has always been in fact afforded; for in many in- stances the miHtary have not arrived in time to do any effectual service. Do you think that the affording assistance to indivi- duals in the manner you have stated is sufficient to remove from the minds of the people their erroneous impression that Government is not favourable to the collection of Tithes? If the means taken are not effectual, it is very possible that that which is in reality an unavoid- able delay may be interpreted as a designed one ; and the successful rioters or tithe subtracters may encourage themselves with the idea that Government does not choose to interfere, in cases where perhaps it was merely that the force could not be sent in time. Does your Grace think that erroneous impression would be removed in any other manner than by some general determination expressed on the part of Govern- ment to put down this resistance, not as applying to individual cases, but as a conspiracy against law ? It seems to me that holds out the fairest prospect of success. Is your Grace aware that, according to Mr. Leslie ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 395 Foster's calculations, grounded upon authentic docu- ments, the average income of the Protestant Clergy arising from Tithe and Glebe does not exceed SS2L a year? I may have seen his calculations; but if I ever did, I have not carried the precise sura in my mind. Is your Grace aware that, according to the calculations of the same gentleman, the average income of the Roman Catholic Clergy exceeds 150/. a year? I may have seen those computations, but I cannot be sure. Is it not your Grace's opinion that the Protestant Clergyman requires, at least, twice as large an income as the Roman Catholic Clergyman; the former being allowed to marry, and the latter not ? I should think it would probably make that difference, considering their incomes no greater than has been stated. Is your Grace aware that the Roman Catholic Clergy in Ireland are altogether dependent upon the Bishop, with respect to their removal from one parish to another ? I think I have understood so. Is it not your Grace's opinion that it is a great 396 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE advantage to the Protestant Church that the Clergy should be, to a greater extent, independent of the Bishops? To a greater extent than that, certainly. The fact of the greater income enjoyed by the Pro- testant Clergyman has been alluded to, with reference to his being married, as giving him a greater claim ; is it indispensable that the Protestant Clergyman should be married ? I presume I need not answer that; but I must say, that I consider it of very great advantage to his parishioners, supposing him to be the sort of person that one would wish to see in a parish ; and otherwise, whether married or single, he would not do much service there. But if he joins himself to the sort of partner that one would wish, I have usually found that the Clergyman's partner is almost as useful as himself, — that she acts the part of a deaconess, and does many things that he could not do in person. I should generally wish to see my Clergy married ; and I think those of them who are most calculated themselves to do service are those who usually find partners of the same description. Does not the value of that circumstance decrease in proportion as the country is more civilized ? ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 397 I do not know that there is any degree of civihzation in which it would not be very de- sirable. Although your Grace does not think that it is abso- lutely necessary for the Protestant Clergy to marry, are you not of opinion that constrained celibacy leads to evils of the most fearful description ? * Certainly, that is my opinion.f On the whole, is not the liberty to marry, which, according to the constitution of human nature, leads in * The question seems to have been this : some members of the Committee seem to have thought that a Protestant Cler- gyman should be considered — in computing what would be a reasonable income — as a married man, on the groimd that he is permitted to marry : others, that he should be reckoned as a single man, on the ground that he is not constrained to marry. I must say that the former appears to me the more reasonable mode of computation, and the most analogous to our ordinary mode of estimating any one's circumstances. If it be enacted that a certain class of men shall not have an income that will enable them to marry without sinking below the condition of gentlem.en, this is virtually to enact that they shall forego either the one or the other of the two things that are thus made incompatible ; — that they shall either be single men, or else men inferior to the class of gentry. A profession so circumstanced, therefore, will for the most part, when celibacy is not enforced by law, be filled by men of inferior grade. f See Note B, at the end of the Evidence. 398 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE most instances to marriage, more consistent with the apostolic recommendation ? I am convinced of it. Are not the landed possessions of the Church of Ire- land already very extensive ? If those are to be called possessions of which the right is vested in the Church, they are very extensive ; but I believe that much fallacy has originated from the circumstance of the actual revenues enjoyed by the Church being estimated or guessed at v^ith reference to its nominal property. For instance, a statement has been alluded to, which places the lands of the see of Dublin at 28,000 acres ; the estimates I have seen make them about 16,000 acres of arable and pasture land, and about 6,000 more of mountain and bog, worth very little indeed. In no instance, however, does the Bishop obtain more (taking rent and fine together), seldom so much as one fifth, oftener one sixth or one seventh, of the real rental. Four fifths and more of the rental go as a profit rent to the layman or other person who holds it under him; ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 399 accordingly, it is in a very modified sense that that land can be said to belong to the Church. Though their extent is very much exaggerated, and the revenue derived from them still more, yet are they not very extensive? The lands legally vested in the Bishops are very extensive. Is there any topic of popular attack more frequently or more vehemently urged than the extent of those landed possessions ? It is continually and most vehemently urged, and in many cases attended w^ith the grossest exaggerations, though perhaps unintentional. If, for instance, it be stated broadly, that the Arch- bishop of Dublin has 28,000 acres, it would be naturally supposed that his wealth would be enormous. Do not you think that the proposal to add to those landed possessions, by commuting the Tithe for land, would be liable to much odium and unpopularity ? I should wish to see some plan devised of putting the Bishop s lands upon a different foot- ing, so as to avoid the evil that has arisen from vesting land in a corporation sole. The result 400 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE of the system of leases for twenty-one years, renewing every year, has been, that though the land is very great, the income derived from it is comparatively small. I conceive that if the lands of the Bishops were properly managed, the same amount of income which they now enjoy might be derived from a much smaller extent of land, and would not, consequently, be open to the same misrepresentation. It appears to me, that there might be an actual division of the estates of each see between the Bishop and the tenants, in proportion to the value of their respective interests ; and that the Bishop might release to his tenants the reversion in one por- tion, on receiving from them a surrender of the leasehold interest in the other part. The ob- jections raised against the great extent of lands held by the Bishops might in this way be di- minished. Do not you think that making so much more land as would be taken in exchange for Tithes inalienable in the hands of perpetual corporations, would be liable to the same objection ? I think there would be many objections to the proposed scheme. ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 401 Would not that be a solid objection ? To make more land inalienable would cer- tainly be liable to a solid objection ; but the proposed corporations might have powers of sale and exchange, on the terms of investing the purchase money in the purchase of other lands to be held upon the same trusts ; and as I formerly remarked that the effect of Tithe is the same as would have resulted from the extent of fertile territory in the country having been originally less than it actually is, it follows that the proposed commutation, by removing Tithe, would virtually be equivalent to the creation of so much new land. Nevertheless, I have no doubt that not only apparent but solid objections to my proposal might be found ; but I conceive there are more and weightier objections, both to the existing system and to every other substitute for it that could be devised. Have you ever considered any advantage that might arise from substituting a corn rent, charged upon the proprietor, instead of the investment in land? I have considered that plan, and I think it would be an improvement upon the present system. D D 402 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Do not you think it would be an improvement even upon the plan of investment of land? I think it would be acceptable for a few years; and then, I have not the least doubt that the next generation, at the latest, w^ould raise a complaint, saying, " It is very hard that the landlords are alone to pai/ the Clergy; they ought, if they are to bear this burden, to be allowed such and such privileges and advan- tages, in the shape of corn laws or bounties ; or the burden ought to be in part taken from them and laid upon other classes of society." It would be quite forgotten, in the course of one or two generations, that they had in fact re- ceived an equivalent; — that their lands had been disburdened of the onus of Tithes ; and it would be represented, perhaps before the middle of this century, but certainly before the end of it, that the landlords were unjustly bur- dened by alone paying the Clergy, who were of equal benefit to all classes; and I think the church revenues would in consequence be in great danger; but for the present I think it would be of great advantage. How would the operation of an arrangement of this ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 403 sort affect the interests, as well of the landlords as of the Clergy, if a power were given to the landlords gradually to redeem this rent, charged at a certain number of years' purchase, to be invested in detached lands as glebe land for the different incumbents ? I have contemplated that as one of the modes of proceeding which might be adopted by those district corporations. I think it would be im- possible, with any prospect of securing justice, that this should be done by an individual in- cumbent ; but if there were a board, such as I have spoken of, established in each district, that mode might probably be adopted with great advantage. Does your Grace contemplate the operation of the board you propose to be simply to invest the amount of the Tithes in land for the purpose of supplying glebes to the separate incumbents, or to retain the aggregate amount of Tithe in Ireland constantly in the hands of the board, to distribute to the different incumbents in their proper proportions ? The latter was my intention ; but I should prefer the former to the present system. In this immediate crisis, before the operation you contemplate in the minds of the landlords hereafter shall take place, do you not conceive that the rent-charge D D 2 404 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE fixed upon the proprietors according to the proportions which would be deduced from the present Composition Act would give immediate and ready facility both to the incumbents and to the present occupiers ? I am hardly prepared to answer that question without more consideration. Would not the immediate or early extinguishment of Tithes for a corn-rent probably assuage the present irritation that pervades the country? I should think it would be a means towards that end. In such a plan, would it not be possible to extinguish the Tithes before any future Tithe to any amount shall have accrued? As far as I am able, at the first glance of the subject, to speak, I should think so. The question supposes that an immediate and universal application of the Composition Act should take place ; that that should be the basis of the measure of the corn rent ; and that a corn rent being fixed so soon as those valuations are made, the Tithes should be forthwith extinguished, and a rent-charge commence ; the landbrd letting his land from that moment tithe-free ? I wish not to be understood as giving my dehberate opinion, at the moment, on such a ON TITHES IxV IRELAND. 405 question ; but it strikes me that that would be desirable. The sooner Tithe is removed, the sooner we may hope this miserable state of excited feeling to be assuaged. Does your Grace think it likely that that which may be called prejudice in the landlords hereafter, in the event of their being charged permanendy with this rent-charge, would have as dangerous an effect upon the institu- tions of the country as the present irritation is likely to produce ? I can hardly speak with confidence in respect of any evil which is remote, as compared with one that is near at hand. Probably the danger might in fact be less ; but we are very liable to the error of under-estimating a danger which does not immediately press upon us, in com- parison of one that is at hand. I think the mode now referred to would put the property of the Church in an insecure position. Still, if there were no other alternative, I would rather incur a more remote than a more immediate danger. Would not the advantages of the extinguishment of Tithes be more readily obtained by such an arrangement 406 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE as has just been suggested than by any other plan your Grace has proposed ? So it seems to me at the moment, supposing such an arrangement to be preliminary to a commutation for land. Is your Grace aware of the number of years* purchase which is usually paid for a lease of land held under the Bishop ? 1 cannot say. When I have ascertained any of those points, they have commonly been com- mitted by me to paper ; and I have no me- moranda of the kind about me. I have intrusted the care of my pecuniary concerns to an agent whom I can fully rely upon both for experience and integrity ; and therefore I have not either furnished myself with documents, or burdened my memory with a recollection, of many things of that kind. Assuming that the boards were formed according to your Grace's suggestion, and were vested with a power of purchasing land, do you see any objection to the purchase of such leases in each diocese, and that leases so purchased should be again granted to the boards in perpetuity, reserving to the diocesan an interest equiva- lent to what he now has, that is, about one-fiflh ? ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 407 I can see no objection to it ; but the idea is new to me, and I should require some hours, perhaps days, to make up my mind decidedly upon it. My present impression is certainly in favour of such a suggestion. If a Bishop's lease is now usually sold at from fifteen to eighteen years' purchase, would not this give a con- siderable advantage to such a purchaser, if he would otherwise have had to purchase freehold property which varies from eighteen to twenty-five? I should think so. With respect to the boards your Grace proposes to institute, would you give them the full power of entering into a composition with the present tithe-payers ? Yes. Does not your Grace believe that the mere circum- stance of a composition would be so great a relief to the majority of small farmers that it would tend considerably to allay the present excitement? I rather doubt that ; because I have found the opposition now prevailing to be as strong against composition as against Tithe. I for- merly stated that I had inquired particularly upon that point. 408 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Did it, to your Grace's knowledge, originate at least in any instances in parishes compounded ? That is more than I can say ; it originated in a sort of secret combination, whose results ap- peared almost simultaneously in several places, and spread rapidly, but irregularly, probably with some reference to the character of the individuals in each parish. I can only say, that from all I have been able to collect, I have not been able to ascertain any difference between the parishes compounded and the parishes not compounded. Is it not probable that the hope held out of the extinction of Tithe, or of its being collected in a different manner by boards constituted as you have proposed, would tend, in a great measure, to satisfy the minds of the people, and to allay the present irritation ? It would satisfy, I should think, all, in pro- portion as they are actuated, not by a hatred towards the Protestant Estabhshment, but by a feeling that they are aggrieved by Tithe as Tithe. Have you paid any attention to the present state of the archiepiscopal lands in the vicinity of Dublin? ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 409 I can speak only from report : but my agent, Mr. Palmer, who is summoned as a witness by the Committee, has taken the most indefatigable pains in collecting all the information he can upon that subject. You stated you think it would not be advisable to appropriate any part of the present Tithe to a provision for the poor ; and that a provision for the poor, generally speaking, would not be a remedy for the present suffer- ings of the people in Ireland ? 1 believe it would be a great augmentation of them. Have you turned in your mind any method of bettering their condition ? I have thought of a great many, to enter into which now would occupy the time of this Com- mittee at great length : but I am convinced that to encourage industry and frugality and fore- thought among them, by whatever means it can be effected, would be most important ; and that providing them with a certainty of relief, on even the lowest scale, whenever they were out of work, would tend to extinguish what there is among them of industry and frugality ; in short. 410 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE that, with the prospect of such a provision, they would work as little as they could, and lay by nothing. Is not the present state of mendicancy and wretchedness among the lower orders such as to demand the serious attention of the legislature ? I have made it a great object of my own attention, and have taken an active part in the Mendicity Institution in Dublin, and in other charities ; and if it should ever appear to me that the legislature could take any step which would tend to better their condition, of course I shall think it my duty to propose it ; but I am not prepared with any such proposal at present. Are you aware that, notwithstanding the great pre- valency of mendicity in Ireland, the savings of a portion at least of the lower orders, as evidenced by the increased amount deposited in the savings' banks, has been latterly considerably increased? I have every reason to suppose, from what I have heard from various parts of Ireland, and from comparing their present state with what I observed when I was there fourteen years ago, that the condition of the poor in Ireland has ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 411 rather improved than deteriorated in that in- terval ; though it is still so much short of what we see in all the best parts or even the tolerable parts of England, that many new comers are apt (erroneously as it appears to me) to think they are in a sinking state. I am quite convinced that a system of poor-rate would throw them back more than any thing that could be devised. Do you allude to the poor-laws as they operate in this country ? I mean, as poor-laws on our principle must operate in every Country, even if administered as well as that principle will admit. Do you conceive there might not be some modified plan of poor-rate adopted in Ireland that might be productive of benefit to the country ? The name of poor-law of course might be extended to systems of a very different nature. A great distinction is to be drawn between legal relief of that kind which tends to increase the distress that it intends to relieve, and that which has no such tendency. The relief afforded to cripples, idiots, blind, deaf and dumb, does not tend to increase those evils. The relief that is 412 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE afforded to mere want, as want, tends to increase that want. That is the sort of relief which I deprecate ; a relief to those that are in distress but able-bodied. And you think that any legislative enactment of relief for that purpose would be injurious to industry, fore- thought, and charity ? Yes ; it would tend to make them leave their parents and their children to parish support, instead of attending to them as they now do, and to prevent them from laying by any thing for a time of distress. They would work as little as possible, and get all they could from the parish. I have seen that operate a great deal in England, and I think it would operate with much more rapid and destructive effect in Ire- land. But what I have said does not apply to the relief of the blind, the permanently infirm, cripples, idiots, and the like. Can your Grace state from general opinion whether the calculations of Mr. Leslie Foster are considered to be correct? 1 have not been able to collect any account I can rely upon as to the number of the members ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 413 of the Church of England ; it is extremely dif- ficult, if not impossible, to ascertain their pro- portion to that of the Roman Cathohcs, except in very small parishes. Are those calculations of Mr. Foster's much objected to as incorrect? I have never heard of any body that has been satisfied with any calculations that have been made v^^ith respect to the incomes of the Roman Catholic Clergy ; all I can say is, that I have understood from various quarters that they are greater than they used to be. Do they not vary very much, not only betvi^een parish and parish, but between one individual priest and another who may be his successor in the same parish ? I should imagine so ; but I have not been able to ascertain any thing satisfactory upon that subject. Is there not very great church patronage attached to the Irish Bishoprics ? * * The Clerical Almanacs will furnish exact answers to many of the questions asked by the Committee. 414 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. I have understood so. Have not the Bishops the nomination of 1400 bene- fices out of 2200 ? That is more than I can answer. NOTES. Note A. Page 298. Few persons would imagine that the revenues of any College at Oxford, Cambridge, or Dublin, would be placed on a more secure or convenient footing by allotting to each Fellow and Scholar, as a Corporation- sole, a separate portion of land, to be let or cultivated by himself. And yet even this course would be free from one of the greatest evils attendant on the present con- stitution of Church endowments ; viz. that of bringing the Clergyman into collision with his own parishioners in pecuniary transactions. Even if no other alteration were made but that of an exchange of endowments, so that each minister should be maintained by the Tithes of a different parish fi'om his own, I am convinced even this would be a great improvement. The measure of vesting the revenues of livings in diocesan boards, was recommended by the Committee of the House of Commons in 1832; and a further exten- sion of the plan was proposed, in the session of 1 885, by 416 NOTES the Hon. B. Baring, and was not unfavourably received even by those who thought the adoption of it at that time unadvisable. This extension was, the substitution of one board for several, and giving to that the power (on the demise of each incumbent) to re-distribute the re- venues according to the wants of the congregations in each district, instead of adhering to the mere territorial divisions. This appeared to me a most important improvement, considering how unequally the Protestant population of Ireland is distributed. No one can doubt how inef- ficient, in proportion to its cost, would be the military establishment of any country that should have a distinct endowment for each separate fort and barrack ; of which some would in course of time become nearly superfluous, while others were needed in situations where there were no means of supporting them. We should then perhaps be told of a surplus that might be withdrawn from the excessive amount of the military establishment : a local congestion (to use a medical illustration) being mistaken for a general plethora. To show how little of attentive consideration many persons have bestowed on the proposal in question, I will observe, that I have actually heard it urged as an objec- tion against it, that the property of Corporations is seldom managed in the best manner : a strong argument in favour of substituting one Corporation for the many hundreds now existing, and those the very worst of all Corporations in respect of the management of property, — Corporations-5o/^. ON TITHES IN IRELAND. 417 Note B. Page 397. In expressing this opinion of the system {an opinion in which many of the most judicious Roman Catholics concur), I beg to be understood as not meaning to cast any reflection on the character of any individuals. In- deed the evils directly arising from the actual profligacy of any individual priest, are by no means what I had principally in my thoughts. Not that any one would maintain either that instances of this are unheard of, or that those which are? heard of constitute the whole, or the majority, of what actually occur : to estimate the number of offences as only equalling the number of convictions, would be most extravagant. But the principal objection in my mind, is, that sort of general disrepute which a compulsory perpetual celibacy tends to attach to the whole class who are subjected to it, even including those of the most perfect purity. No one can be sure that any individual does not repent of the restriction under which he has placed himself ; because, if he does, he cannot extricate himself from it. And the suspicion of such repentance — a suspicion which, though in fact it may be groundless, he has no means of refuting — is, in such a case as this, of most injurious consequences. Of the numbers of men who live single by choice, (including, it should be remembered, the majority of the Armenian E E 418 NOTES ON TITHES IN IRELAND. Clergy, who, though in commufiion with the Church of Rome^ are allowed to marry,) there are probably very few against whom any suspicion of profligacy lies, except when it is deserved. But the very same men, if living under a system of comimlsory celibacy, could not have the same security of preserving their reputation free from all suspicion. I wish these observations to be received by Roman Catholics in the same spirit of candour in which they are oflfered. If there be no superior virtue in a life of celibacy, it should not be enforced on any : if there be, it must be an enhancement of the virtue that it should be the result of a voluntary resolution made day by day, rather than once for all to bind the agent for ever. Either a priest wishes to marry, or he does not; if he does, it is better he should be permitted : if he does not, it is superfluous, and worse than superfluous, to prohibit him. A SPEECH IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS, AUGUST 1, 1833, ON A BILL OR IHE REMOVAL OF CERTAIN DISABILITIES FROM HIS MAJESTY'S SUBJECTS OF THE JEWISH PERSUASION, WITH ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON SOME OF THE OBJECTIONS URGED AGAINST THAT MEASURE. VTroSore ovv ra Kaicrapog, Kaiaapi, Koi ra rou 0fou rtj? 0£(jT. M^tt. xxii. 21. E E 2 PREFACE TO THE FIRST EDITION. It appears that some well-intentioned persons have been taught to misinterpret the motives of those who supported the Bill lately before Parliament, for removing civil disabilities from His Majesty's subjects of the Jewish persuasion. It has been hastily inferred that the advocates of that measure must have been either wholly indifferent to Christianity, or at least, less strongly attached to it, than their opponents. And it is not unlikely that some of the less-educated portion of the community may even have been led to suppose that the question was as to the superior excellence of the Chris- tian or the Jewish faith ; or, as to the degree of intrinsic importance of the differences between the two : in the same manner as some persons, during the agitation of the Roman Catholic question, supposed that to be a question of preference between the Romish and the Protestant faith. Now every man of candour and good sense, whatever may be his opinion respecting the Bill in question, must wish that such erroneous impressions as these should be 422 PREFACE TO THE SPEECH removed; and that, as men of undoubted religious sin- cerity were to be found among the voters on both sides, so, both should have equal justice. Differences of opinion may exist, as to several points, among sincere Christians ; but a Christian spirit — a spirit of candour, courtesy, and charity, — is essential to all who are Chris- tians in any thing more than in name. It is very easy to brand, on the one side, the supporters of the Bill, as lukewarm in religion ; or, on the other side, its oppo- nents, as bigoted, or as hypocritical, or as thinking to atone, by standing forward in public as defenders of Christianity, for their neglect of its duties in their private life : but it is not so easy to reconcile rash imputations of this kind, with the prohibition of passing harsh judgments on our brethren. Since however such censures have been promulgated, I have thought it due both to my own character, and to the cause of truth and justice, to lay before the Public (reprinted from the report in the " Mirror of ParHa- ment,") the reasons which I assigned in the House for voting as I did; especially as the reports in the news- papers were extremely incorrect. And having had no opportunity, during the debate, of replying, I have subjoined a few remarks on the argu- mentative portion of what was subsequently urged on the opposite side. In one point I entirely and heartily concur with several of those who voted against the Bill : I mean in con- sidering the question, chiefly, as one of principle. The number, it was admitted, of native British Jews is too ON THE JEWS* RELIEF BILL. 423 small, to make a concession of their claims a matter of any great direct national importance, either for evil or for good. The chief importance of the question lies in the general principles of legislation which it involves. In taking this view of it, I agree with the opponents of the measure ; as I do also in my estimate of the paramount importance of the Christian Religion, and of the duty of legislating in accordance with the true spirit of it. Our difference consists in the one party considering the re- moval ; the other, the imposition or continuance, of the civil disabilities affecting the Jews, to be inconsistent with the spirit of the Gospel. To me, I confess, the whole question as to the treat- ment of persons of a different persuasion, seems to have been long ago decided, by our Lord's answer to those who alleged their scruples respecting the submission of men professing the true religion, to the civil government of a heathen prince. " Is it lawful," they inquired, " to give tribute to Caesar?" Our Lord's answer, " Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God, the things that are God's," lays down a principle which must surely be as applicable to the case of fellow-subjects, as of rulers. Caesar's being an idolater, did not, it seems, impair his right, as a civil governor, to the obedience and the tribute due to him as civil governor, so long as his commands did not interfere with the service due to God. Neither therefore can the religious errors of our fellow-citizens impair their rights as citizens, so long as the exercise of these does not prevent us from serving God after the dictates of our own conscience. 424 PREFACE TO THE SPEECH For, a prince can have but the same claim to the rights of a prince, that a subject has, to those of a subject. The plea of self-defence, indeed, may justify our with- holding either the one or the other ; as in the case of King James II. and his descendants; whose sovereignty seemed incompatible with the rights of their subjects : but no other plea can justify our withholding either. It might indeed be more unsafe, but would hardly have been more unjust, for the Jews of old to refuse tribute to a heathen emperor, than for us to refuse, on religious grounds, civil rights to our fellow-subjects, when no case of danger to ourselves from the concession can be made out. And although anxious that our Jewish fellow-subjects should receive what I regard as justice, I am still more anxious that Christians should manifest a readiness to practise it. Indeed, as far as the immediate object of the Bill is concerned, though it would be a satisfaction to me to think that claims which I consider reasonable have received any effectual support from my efforts, I do not apprehend that the absence of those efforts, even were they more powerful than I can presume to think them, would have materially affected the ultimate result. Most persons, however they may differ as to the advisableness of passing the Bill, seem to agree in having little doubt that within a very few years at the latest, if not within one year, it will be passed. Accordingly I do not ex- pect (considering that for the next three sessions I shall have no seat in Parliament) that an opportunity will ever again be offered to myself, of advocating the measure. . ON THE jews' relief BILL. 425 My anxiety is, that it may not appear to have been carried in despite of all who feel strongly in favour of Christianity : — that it may not be regarded as a measure forced upon sincere Christians, in opposition to Christian sentiments and principles ; but on the contrary, as the result of a clearer estimate of those principles, and as a just application of the maxim, to render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God, the things that are God's." I have been influenced however in no small degree by a desire to lay before the public my sentiments on another most important subject, slightly touched on in the follow- ing speech, and rather more fully in the one subjoined: — the anomalous situation in which our Church, considered, simply, as a Religious Society, is placed, in respect of the Legislature, constituted as that Legislature now is. SPEECH ON THE JEWS' RELIEF BILL, AUGUST 1, 1833. MY LORDS, Feeling myself bound in conscience to support this Bill, I feel myself also called upon not to give a silent vote, lest I should be open to misconstruction. Misconstruction, perhaps, I shall, at any rate, encounter from some; but I feel myself bound, as far as I can, to guard against it at the hands of the consi- derate and candid. I will not occupy your Lordships' time by protestations of the sincerity of my attachment to Christianity. Such protestations receive, in general, but little credit ; and deserve but 428 SPEECH ON THE little, unless they are borne out by the general conduct of those who make them ; and if they are, I consider them to be superfluous. I will take leave to observe, however, that setting aside all considerations of duty, it is not likely that a Christian Clergyman should be indifferent to the security of the Christian religion — that a prelate of the Establishment should be indif- ferent to the safety or the credit of the Esta- blishment,— or that a Member of this House would be willingly accessory to the degradation of the Legislature. I shall offer a very few observations on a part, and a part only, of the objections which have been taken to this Bill. And I shall con- fine myself to the consideration of objections, because it must be admitted, I conceive, that if these are removed, the Bill ought to pass. The presumption is evidently in favour of it ; and the onus probandi lies entirely on those who oppose it. The general rule, indeed, is, that the presumption is in favour of any existing institution, and that the burden of proof hes on those who call for a change. But in the case of all restrictions and disabilities, I consider the jews' relief bill. 429 rule to be reversed, and the burden of proof to lie on the other side. Disabilities, restric- tions, burdens, pains and penalties of various kinds, may sometimes be necessary ; but no one will contend that they are good in them- selves. I conceive, therefore, that it is not incumbent on those who advocate this Bill, to point out, in the first instance, the advantage of the relief which it proposes to give ; but rather to meet the objections that are brought against it ; because, if no sufficient reason can be shown for continuing them, it is clear that these and all other restrictions (their only warrant being that of necessity) ought to be removed. Now the objections which I have heard, — not in this particular debate only, but on other occasions also, — to the removal of the dis- abilities imposed on the Jews, may be divided into two classes, — those of a purely political character, and those of a religious character. The first class of objections has reference to the Jews, not as a certain body of rehgionists, but as a distinct Nation, looking forward with a confident hope to an ultimate return to the 430 SPEECH ON THE Land of their fathers, and having habits of thought, and feehngs of patriotic attachment so exclusively confined to their own Race, as to render them incapable of mingling as good citizens on equal terms with any other. On that class of objections, I shall say nothing on the present occasion ; being desirous of address- ing this House as seldom as possible on ques- tions purely political. I shall confine myself to the second class of objections, which has reference to the peculiar religious tenets pro- fessed by the Jews. It is urged that persons who not only do not acknowledge, but who renounce and deny — and some say vilify — the great Author of the Chris- tian religion, ought not to have any voice in the legislature of a Christian country. On this point arises a question, which I own I find it very difficult to answer. The Legislature of this country, — I mean the two Houses of Parliament, — is not confined to what may be called the Civil Government, — the imposing of burdens which all must bear, and the enacting of laws which all must obey, — but extends to the government of the Established Church also. jews' relief bill. 431 even in matters purely ecclesiastical. It is, in fact, at present the only ecclesiastical govern- ment ; since Convocation has long been in a dormant state in England ; and, in Ireland, does not exist even in that state. Whoever, therefore, is admitted to a seat in the Legis- lature, is admitted to a share in the government, not only of the State, but also of the Church ; and that, not only in respect of its tempo- ralities, but also of purely ecclesiastical affairs. If, therefore, the question be asked, " What right can a Jew have, under any circumstances, to legislate for a Christian Church ? " I know of no answer that can be given to that ques- tion, except by asking another : What right has a Roman Catholic to legislate for a Pro- testant Church ? or a Presbyterian for an Episcopal Church ? What right, in short, has any man to legislate, in ecclesiastical matters, for any church of which he is not a member ? This anomaly appears to me to exist in all these cases alike. The Jews, it is true, are much further removed from us than any sect of Christians ; but it does not follow that they 432 SPEECH ON THE are more likely to make innovations in our religious institutions. They never attempt to make proselytes, nor to introduce into Chris- tianity any admixture of Judaism ; nor is it likely they would attempt, in any way, to inter- fere with the doctrines or institutions of any description of Christians. Christians, on the contrary, of difiPerent persuasions, have often interfered, in the most violent manner, with each other's faith and worship. The Presby- terians did, we know, at one time, when they gained the ascendency in this Country, eject from every parish in England the Episcopalian Clergy ; and were in turn ejected by them : and I need not remind your Lordships of the many and violent struggles between Roman Catholics and Protestants in this and in many other Countries. In fact, the nearer approach to each other, in point of faith, between different denominations of Christians, than between Chris- tians and Jews, instead of diminishing, increases the risk of their endeavouring to alter or to overthrow each other's religion. Although, therefore, I cannot, in the abstract, approve of Jews being admitted to legislate for a Christian jews' relief bill. 433 Church, or of the ecclesiastical concerns of any Church, being, in any degree, under the control of such as are not members of it, I cannot on that ground consent to withhold civil rights from the Jews, when Roman Catholics and Dissenters have been admitted into Parliament ; since, in the case of the Jews, the anomaly is not greater, and the danger is even less. The nearer any class of men approach to ourselves in their faith, the more likely they are to inter- fere with ours. If, indeed, an erroneous faith be regarded in the light of a sin against God, and if we were authorized to visit this sin with civil disabilities, we might then look to the greater difference in faith, of the Jews, than of any Christians. But I trust I may dismiss, without argument, the notion of our having a right to punish men on account of their religious opinions, either with a view of forcing them to renounce those opinions, or of inflicting retribution on them for erroneous behef. Often as that principle — which is, in fact, that of persecution — has by many been implied in their practice — no one, I imagine, will be found in the present day, to defend it in F F 434 SPEECH ON THE the abstract.* If, indeed, we were to admit the principle of punishing religious error, then, as I have said, the greater error of the Jews might be consistently assigned as a reason for harsher and less indulgent treatment of them than of any sect of Christians. But the only ground which any one will distinctly avow as authorizing penalties and restrictions imposed on any class of religionists, is that of self-pro- tection— to guard ourselves either against reli- gious corruption, or against some alarming civil danger. And in this point of view, — looking to self-protection and not to punishment, — it is plain, that the nearer any persons approach to us in religion, the greater the danger, when there is any to be apprehended, of admitting them to an equality of rights with ourselves. We know that the Roman Catholics have per- secuted the Protestants, and the Protestants, in ♦ See Romish Errors, ch. v. § 7. A striking instance of men's tendency to regard with especial abhorrence those who differ from them in religious belief, is to be found in the pre- sent use and etymological origin of the word " miscreant;" which, from its primary sense of mis-believer, has come to be a term of the highest moral reproach. jews' relief bill. 435 their turn, the Roman Catholics ; — in short, we know that the various sects of Christians have done more, in molesting each other's faith and worship, than any Jews or Pagans have done against Christianity.* When, therefore, it is said, that although not an exclusively Protestant, we have still an exclu- sively Christian Legislature, I cannot but confess * Were it possible for any one to doubt the existence in the present day of such feelings and principles as I have here alluded to, he might but too easily satisfy himself by simply looking to the amount of calumny, insult, and execration, which have been, on party-grounds, within the last few years, (or even, months) heaped on some, not only members but prelates, of the established Church, not more by the avowed enemies of that Establishment, or of the Gospel itself, than by persons professing the deepest veneration,' and the most fervent zeal, for both. Not that this is any just ground of uneasiness in those who have been so assailed. The example, and the warnings, of their great Master, ought to have prepared them to regard it as a blessing " when men hate, and persecute, and speak all manner of evil of them falsely, for his sake." But a proof is thus afforded that the name of Christian furnishes no security that the spirit of the Gospel will be manifested ; since it appears but too plainly that those who thus revile and calum- niate every one who will not cooperate with their party, would not have been likely, any more than those who lived three centuries ago, to confine themselves to mere words, if their power were, in these days, equal to their will. F F 2 436 SPEECH ON THE that a Christian Legislature, as such — simply as Christian — does not necessarily afford religious, or even personal, security to a Christian. The most merciless persecutions, we know, have been (it is with shame and sorrow I speak it, but it is notorious) those inflicted by Christians on each other. From the mere circumstance, therefore, of being under a Legislature exclu- sively Christian, I can derive no security. And, what is more, I am certain that your Lordships think with me in this : for, there is no one of us, professing Protestantism, who would not prefer living in Turkey or Persia, where he would be allowed, on paying a small tribute, the free exercise of his religion, to living under an exclusively Christian government in Spain or Portugal, or any country in which the Inquisition was established. The mere cir- cumstance, therefore, I say, of our having a Christian Legislature, is not of itself any ground of security. But, on the other hand, there is not necessarily any danger, or any incongruity, in persons of any religious persuasion, different from that of the Church of England, legislating upon matters distinct from religion. jews' relief bill. 437 With respect to strictly Ecclesiastical affairs — to matters which do relate directly to religion, I admit that there is an incongruity in admitting any one, whether Christian or not, to have a share in the government of a chmxh of which he is not a member ; and I take this opportunity of declaring my opinion upon that point to be, that the purely ecclesiastical concerns of the Church, as distinguished from the secular, ought to be intrusted to the care of some persons, whether called Commissioners, or by whatever other name, appointed expressly for that pur- pose, and who should be members of that Church. But with respect to civil concerns, I do not see that we are justified in excluding from a share in making the laws which they are to obey, or in imposing the burdens which they are to bear, any set of men, whatever their religious tenets may be, until it can be proved that they are likely to abuse their power. It has been urged, however, that, over and above all considerations of self-protection, the Jews are under God's curse — that they are suffering a Divine judgment — from the effects of which we must not attempt to rescue them. 438 SPEECH ON THE It is true that they are, nationally, under a judgment. I look on that nation as an extraor- dinary monument of the fulfilment of prophecies, and as paying the penalty of their rejection of the Messiah. But we must be very careful how we, without an express commission, take upon ourselves to be the executioners of Divine judg- ment, lest we bring a portion of these judgments on ourselves. We are not to act on the will of the Lord, according to our own conjectures as to his designs ; but according to the commands He has expressly given us.* If we justify the * The last clause of our 17th Article seems to have been added in reference to such as might attempt to justify their own conduct, however immoral, by a reference to the decrees of Providence, on the plea that whatever takes place must be conformable to the divine will. To " do the will of our Heavenly Father," must mean, to do what He, by the light of Revelation or of Reason, announces as required of us : other- wise, all men alike, whether virtuous or wicked, would be equally doers of his will. And where his will is not thus an- nounced to us, our duty often leads us even to act in opposition to it. For every one would say that a child, for instance, does his duty, in tending the parent on a bed of sickness, and using all means for his restoration ; though the event may prove it to have been the will of God that his parent should die. Pilate, on the other hand, was, in a different sense, fulfilling the will of God, while acting against .tiie jews' relief bill. 439 exclusion of the Jews from a participation in those civil rights which the rest of us enjoy, on the ground that we are thus fulfiUing the judg- ment of Divine Providence, we must remember that on the same plea the infernal cruelties committed by the Romans and their allies, at the destruction of Jerusalem, might no less be justified. For these also were judgments pro- phetically denounced against the Jews. Nay, more; the Jews themselves would, on this ground, be justified for the very crime with which they are now upbraided, the crucifixion of Jesus: for this, also, was in accordance with prophecy, and in conformity with the Divine will. God's will we are sure must be done, and his purposes accomplished, without any need of our aid or consent : but we shall not stand acquitted before Him, on the plea that we are fulfilling his designs, if we presume, uncommissioned, to execute the judgments He has denounced. If it be the will of God that the Jews should dictates of conscience. And we should remember that the prevalence of the Mahometan religion in many extensive countries that were once Christian, is, in this sense, the will 0 of God. 440 SPEECH ON THE always be wanderers upon the face of the earth, we may feel assured that they will not long find a resting-place. Whatever the prophecies respecting them do really point to, we may be sure will come to pass. But it is plain, from their having been actually received by some nations to a participation of civil rights, that their perpetual exclusion from such rights can have been no part of those prophecies. And certainly we have received no commission to exclude them. Their religious errors we cannot but condemn ; but we must carefully guard against confounding together the two questions ; — as to the right of punishing men for their religious errors, however great, — and as to the right of defending ourselves against the conse- quences of those errors. To claim the former, is the very spirit of persecution. And if there be any such persons as perse- cuting Christians in this Country, I scruple not to say that I differ more from them in point of religion, than I do from the Jews themselves. The former beheve, indeed, that the promised Messiah has arrived ; but the others believe in such a Messiah, as in truth never has appeared : " jews' relief bill. they assign the name and the titles which belong to the true Jesus of Nazareth, to a phantom of their own imagination. Their Messiah is not that meek and humble Jesus who told Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world " — who repressed the mistaken and intemperate zeal of his disciple, when prepared to fight for him, by bidding him put up his sword into its sheath — who prayed for the pardon of his murderers ; — and who, when his followers would have called down the fire of heaven on those who rejected Him, rebuked them by saying, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye^ are of." I maintain, then, that it is only on the ground of self-protection that we can be justified in imposing, or in continuing (which is the same thing) any restriction on any class of religionists. But independent of the consideration of any apprehended danger, we are told that we ought to look to the scandal — the indecorum — of admitting to form part of a Christian Legis- lature those who scoff at the Christian religion, and treat the Founder of it with scorn, as an impostor. * vfielc. 442 SPEECH ON THE Now, if any Jews openly insult our religion, they deserve not merely to be withheld from civil privileges, but to be punished ; and under the existing law, they would be Hable to punish- ment for molesting the worship of their neigh- bours. But if no such charge is established against them, it seems to me that the scandal lies on the other side. For we ought to con- sider that this is not a Bill to entitle a certain number of Jews to a seat in ParHament as Jews; but to remove the restriction which prohibits Christians from electing, if they think Jit, a Jew for their representative. Is it not, then, a greater scandal, that we should think it necessary for the safety of Christianity to impose this restric- tion— a restriction not so much on the Jews, as on ourselves — to prohibit the people, if they choose it, from returning Jews as their represen- tatives? I do not place the question on the rights of the Jews ; nor on their moral or intellectual quaUfications, to which such high testimony has been borne by those of their opponents who have more knowledge of them than myself; but I place it on our own rights. For if any Jews are returned to Parhament, it jews' relief bill. 443 must be by the choice of a great majority of Christian constituents. I own it does, there- fore, appear to me to be a scandal rather on our own faith, to consider it so frail and brittle as not to bear touching — to proclaim that Christianity is in danger unless the hands of Christians are tied to preclude them from the election of Jews. I am not discussing the question whether Jews are the fittest persons to be returned to Parliament ; but whether Christians should be left free as to that question, or should be pre- vented from returning them, if they think fit. This Bill, it should be remembered, differs materially, in this respect, from that by which the disabilities of the Roman Catholics were removed ; because, by the latter, many persons, being already Peers, were, by that Bill, at once admitted to Parliament. That will not be the case in the present instance ; because no Jew can set foot in Parliament until he has been freely elected by a Christian constituency. But, as I have already stated, I do not think that the Jews, any more than the Roman Catho- lics, or any Dissenters from the Established 444 SPEECH ON THE Church, ought to be admitted to legislate, as to matters purely religious, for that Church. I think that every thing relating to the spiritual concerns of the Church should be intrusted to a Commission, or to some Body of men, mem- bers of that Church, having power to regulate these concerns in such a manner as may be most conducive to the interests of religion, and to the spiritual welfare of the people. I cannot but think that the members of the Established Church ought to have the same advantage, in this respect, as the Methodists, Quakers, Mora- vians, and other dissenting sects ; who are allowed to regulate the strictly religious con- cerns of their own religious communities, respec- tively, without any interference, in respect of these concerns, on the part of persons of a dif- ferent church. But no objection on this score can fairly be allowed to operate against the claims of the Jews, more than against various denominations of Christians ; to whom the same objection applies with at least equal force, and whose claims have been already admitted. And I can- not but think, therefore, that Jews ought not. jews' relief bill. 445 in fairness, to be excluded from all share in imposing the burdens which they are required to bear, and in enacting the laws to which they are to be subject, unless a much stronger case than any that I have yet heard can be made out for that exclusion. ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE JEWS* RELIEF BILL. It was alleged on the opposite side, I. That the case of the Jews and that of the Roman Catholics are not parallel, inasmuch as, 1st, The claims of the Roman Cathohcs were conceded under the pressure of urgent necessity, and no such case of necessity had been established in the case of the Jews ; and, 2dly, The Jews are not claiming any rights or advantages formerly enjoyed by them in this Country, and of which they have been deprived by positive enactment ; but were never in possession of what they now petition for. All this I readily admit. And I was so far from contending that there is a political neces- sity for granting the claims of the Jews, that I ADDITIONAL REMARKS. 447 expressly stated the reason why the burden of proving a necessity ought to lie on the other side. Can it be maintained that a restriction, disability, or inconvenience of any kind, affecting any class of our fellovv^-subjects, is a good in itself, and ought to be imposed or continued, without any necessity ? And yet, if this be 72ot maintained, it follows inevitably, that he who in any case opposes its removal, is bound to prove its necessity. To refuse a concession as long as we can, and at last to yield, reluctantly, under the pressure of unavoidable necessity, is a course which may sometimes be excused, but which I should have thought would hardly be reckoned a matter of boast It is not surely the course most dignified in the giver, or most conciliating to the receiver of a boon. Nor, again, did I rest the claim of the Jews on the plea of their having formerly enjoyed the advantages they now crave. On such a plea indeed they could hardly claim common humanity, from most nations of Europe. I looked not to the treatment they have actually received, but to what I thought they ought to 448 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE have received. They come forward, not as men claiming to be restored to what has been taken from them, but as fellow-creatures and fellow- subjects. And they make their application to us, whose religion teaches us to imitate the Samaritan in the parable, who regarded every one as a neighbour whom he had an opportunity of serving ; and to treat men, not necessarily, as we have been accustomed to treat them, but as we would have them treat us, if we were to exchange situations. Now I think if we were living in the midst of a people professing some other rehgion, we should think it reasonable to be admitted to all civil privileges, as long as we left others unmolested in their worship. II. But the Jews, it was further urged, are the descendants * of those who crucified our Lord ; * The expression actually used was much stronger — " they crucified our Lord :" they^ that is, their ancestors, eighteen centuries ago. But if their descendants at the present day are, on that ground, to be considered (if they do not embrace Christianity) as not only approving of a foul murder, but as actually guilty of it, we surely ought to go further, and punish them with death, as murderers. But if we also are to be judged on a like principle, we must be regarded as guilty of the deeds of rapine, cruelty, and murder, perpetrated by our jews' relief bill. 449 and as they still regard him as a false prophet, they are not to be put on a level with the Roman Catholics, or any denomination of Christians. This argument was expanded and dwelt on, and placed in every different shape in the course of the debate ; and constituted, indeed, the prin- cipal part, in quantity, of what was urged in opposition to the Bill. But no attempt was made to show why, if religious differences are, at all, to be made the ground of civil disabilities, and are to be estimated by their intrinsic impor- tance, and not by their political tendency, — why, if that is to be done, the line should be drawn in this particular place more than in another : — why, if the admission of Jews to civil rights is inconsistent with the character of a Christian country, the admission of Roman Catholics is not equally inconsistent with that of a Protestant country ; and so with the rest. Roman Catholics regard the Pope as holding ecclesiastical autho- rity over all Christians ; while Protestants regard ancestors (at a much later period) on the Jews ; and of the burning of Anabaptists in the reign of Edward VI. How little would some Christians like to receive the same measure as they deal to others! Matt. vii. 2. G G 450 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE his power as usurped, and its tendency as corrupt- ing : these, again, regard the Reformers as vene- rable martyrs, while the Romanists hold them pernicious heretics. And many other such points of disagreement exist. Yet it has been decided that these different descriptions of men may live on equal terms as members of the same civil community. It is in vain to say that the Jews differ more from Christians than Christians from each other. That does not answer the question, why the line should be drawn at that precise point. The whole argument, indeed, turns on the confounding together two distinct considerations; the intrinsic magnitude of each difference, and the peculiar bearing and tendency of each hind of difference. For example, every one knows that, during great part of the last century, many worthy and pious members of the Church of England advocated the claims of the House of Stuart, and aimed assiduously at the restoration of that family. These principles must have been, in the eyes of any loyal subject of King George, (though a member of the same Church), incom- patible with their fitness for civil office. Yet if jews' relief bill. 451 he had chanced to meet with any of these per- sons in a foreign country, there is no reason why he might not have joined in their rehgious worship, provided they would consent to keep clear of political questions. Yet he could not have joined in religious worship with Christians of other persuasions, whose loyalty, and conse- quent fitness for civil offices, he would never have disputed. Roman Cathohcs, Quakers, Anabaptists, Uni- tarians, &c. cannot all be right in their religious belief ; yet all are eligible, by our present laws, to a seat in Parhament ; while any one, not pos- sessing a certain amount of property, is disqua- lified even from being a voter. Now, no one surely would say that the possession of a certain amount of property is intrinsically more impor- tant than rectitude of religious faith. Every one would admit, in this case, the principle, — the admission of which in fact decides the present question, — that it is the kind, and not the degree, of agreement or discrepancy, that is in each question to be looked to ; and that it is for the civil community to regard merely political quali- fications or disquahfications. G G 2 452 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE III. It was urged, again, that there is no ground for complaining of injustice or intolerance in our precluding any but Christians from civil rights, inasmuch as every master of a family assumes the right of requiring all the members of his household to profess the religion he thinks best ; and requires, if he judges it proper, that his servants should attend family-prayers. And certainly every man has this right in his own house ; nor have any of his servants, or of those who may wish to engage in his service, any rights at all, relatively to his family, except what he may choose to grant them. He may determine what he thinks fit, not only as to the religion, but as to the stature and personal appearance of his servants. The argument is conclusive, if we admit (and not otherwise) that these islands belong to the king, or to the King and Parlia- ment, in the same manner as the house or land of any individual belongs to the owner. But no one, I apprehend, will, in the nineteenth cen- tury, openly maintain this. And that the above argument proceeds on such a supposition, is a sufficient refutation of it. The King and Par- liament are now, at least, universally admitted jews' relief bill. 453 to be the governors, not the owners, of the Country. And even the most absolute monarch in modern Europe, professes to govern, not (as a master does his servants) for his own benefit, but for that of his people ; and to impose no burden, privation, or restriction, on any class of his subjects, except what is counterbalanced by the general good of the community. It would not have been worth while there- fore to notice such an argument, but that it has, if rightly applied, great weight on the opposite side. Every one, it is admitted, should be allowed to do what he will with any thing that belongs to him ; provided he does not molest his neigh- bours. It would be unjust for any of them to interfere with the management of his household, on the ground that he does not lay down such rules for it as they think best ; and to impose restrictions on him, compelling or forbidding him to take into his service men of this or that class or religious persuasion. Now let it be observed that this is precisely the kind of inter- ference which at present exists, and which it was the object of the Bill to put an end to. It did 454 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE not go to compel the King to take Jews into his service, or electors, to return them to Parha- ment ; but to remove prohibitions. We may think that a Jew is not the fittest person to hold offices under the Crown, or to sit in Parhament, or to be a servant in a gentleman's family ; but that is a point for the Crown, — for the electors, — for the master, — to consider. He who would withdraw the matter from their discretion, and limit their choice, by maintaining a restrictive law, which says, "you shall not appoint such and such persons," is evidently interfering with their general right to appoint whom they please ; and is consequently bound to show that some danger to the community is likely to ensue from leaving them at Hberty. IV. The argument drawn from the Babylonian and other ancient States having employed Jews in civil capacities, without finding them disloyal, or experiencing any disadvantage from their national attachment, or their peculiar opinions and customs, was met by the reply, that the case of those ancient Jews is not parallel to that of Jews in the present day ; the former having jews' relief bill. 455 not been guilty of the sin of rejecting the Messiah, but being professors of the only true religion then revealed. This objection was urged by a member of the House, for whose judgment I have great defe- rence,— whom I never differ from without real regret, — and with whom I have been so happy, in almost every other instance, as to agree. But though I acknowledge the truth of what is alleged in the above objection, I cannot admit that it has any hearing on the question. This, I am aware, may be easily said, of any thing. And a mere unsupported assertion that a certain argument does not bear on the ques- tion, affords some degree of presumption that it does ; and that it is not easily refuted ; since its irrelevancy, supposing it were irrelevant, would otherwise, one would suppose, have been pointed out. My reason then for saying that the above objection is irrelevant, is that the whole question turns on the discrepancy likely to exist between the Jews and those of another religion ; and that, modern Judaism is not more hostile to Chris- tianity, than ancient Judaism was to heathen 456 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE idolatry. The religious opinions and observances of the Jews, in the days of Daniel for instance, do not appear (it has been urged) to have unfitted them for the civil service of Babylonian or Median princes. And as no one will contend that Daniel, and the rest, were less at variance, in point of religion, with the idolatry of Babylon, than the modern Jews are with Christianity, it is inferred (and surely with great fairness), that these last are as fit for civil employments under Christian princes, as their ancestors, under Pagan. If the question were, what judgment ought to be formed in a religious point of view, of the ancient and of the modern Jews, respectively, we should of course take into account the im- portant distinction which the advent of Christ places between the two. But in a question respecting civil rights and disabilities, this dis- tinction is nothing to the purpose. To allege that the ancient Jews at Babylon professed a true religion in the midst of falsehood, and that their descendants adhere to an erroneous religion in the midst of truth, does not impair the parallel between the two cases, in respect of the present jews' relief bill. 457 argument, so long as it is but admitted (which no one denies) that the Jews are not now led, by their religion, to entertain a greater repug- nance for Christianity, than their ancestors did for Paganism. V. In answer to the argument that other European nations have, without any evil result, admitted Jews to civil rights, it was strongly and repeatedly urged that we ought not to be led by foreigners ; and that it is more becoming the dignity of the English nation to set an example to others, than to follow theirs. Undoubtedly, if, merely because other Coun- tries had adopted any measure, we were required to do the same, without either considering the reasons for it, or judging by the results, this would be justly censured as servile imitation. But nothing of this kind was ever proposed. To observe the results of an experiment tried by our neighbours, and to profit by another's ex- perience, has usually been regarded as charac- teristic of zaise men : and if E?iglishmen have not hitherto adopted such a course, it is high time that they should. We have at least a proverbial 458 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE expression among us relative to a class of persons who will learn from nothing but their own ex- perience ; but the title that proverb applies to them is not one of dignity. But let it at least be conceded that we are not to be precluded, for ever, from adopting any measure, merely because our neighbours have adopted it. Else, our dread of following the lead of other nations, will compel us to pursue an unwise course whenever they may chance to pursue a wise one. And let some moderate limits be set to the interval which must elapse before we may be allowed, without incurring the charge of political plagiarism, to tread the same path which we have seen others tread with safety. The dread of thus compromising our dignity, in the case of the alteration of " the style," made us submit for a whole century to an ever- increasing inconvenience, lest we should be sus- pected of obeying the Pope. And if a similar feeling had been allowed to operate at the time of the Reformation, we should have disdained to appear imitators of Luther. But surely, in these days at least, we may venture to adopt a wise jews' relief bill. 459 measure as soon as we perceive it to be so, without fear of our conduct being imputed to any other motive. VI. Lastly, an objection was urged which ap- peared to me more worthy of consideration, and which I am incHned to think had more weight with the most discerning portion of the oppo- nents of the Bill, than any other. The Legisla- ture, it was said, by removing this, practically the last, barrier, that excludes any one from office on rehgious grounds, might be understood by the people to have manifested an indifference to religion, or a contempt for Christianity. The passing of the Bill might be interpreted as a deliberate public declaration, that the rulers of this Country consider religious differences as of no intrinsic importance. And far as such a thought may have been from the minds of those who advocated the measure, they cannot (it was urged) prevent the nation, and the world at large, from drawing, however unreasonably, that inference. Those who urged this objection, did not, if I rightly understood them, imply that they would 460 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE have advocated the introduction for the first time, of laws (supposing there had been none before), for imposing civil disabilities on the Jews. But they felt, I apprehend (and such certainly is my ow^n feeling) that the continuance of a law may sometimes be advisable, even when its en- actment would not have been : — that its abroga- tion does not necessarily place us in the same situation as if that law had never existed ; and that the effect of such abrogation is not always merely negative, but may be understood to convey a positive declaration of the sentiments of the Legislature (sentiments often liable to be misunderstood) as to each subject in question. All this I am ready to admit. And it is a consideration which should never be lost sight of ; inasmuch as it dictates an additional caution against unwise enactments, especially in matters pertaining to religion ; since there is so much difficulty and danger in retracing our steps. For example, there was a danger (though one which w^e were undoubtedly bound to encounter,) in removing the penalties imposed on such as should deny the doctrine of the Trinity ; lest this repeal should be understood (and probably jews' relief bill. 461 it was so understood, by many weak brethren) as a declaration that the doctrine of the Trinity is of no consequence.* But though I admit the existence of such a danger in the present case, I do not admit that it ought to operate, even in the smallest degree, as an objection to the proposed Bill ; because the danger in question exists in a much greater degree as the law now stands, than it would, if the Jewish disabilities were removed. If indeed the laws excluded from office all who are not of the established religion, the ob- jection would stand good against the relaxation of those laws. There would then be good ground for urging, — what was urged at the time — the danger of men's understanding the Legislature to have proclaimed their indiffe- rence about religious opinions. Not that this objection against removing religious restrictions * The custom, now almost disused, of stating, in the Preamble of a Bill, the reasons and designs of the framers, might be, I think, in some cases, revived with good ejQfect. Besides other advantages, which it would not be to ray present purpose to enumerate, those incidental and unde- signed effects on the public mind which I have been alluding to, might then be in great measure obviated. 462 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE would not have been, in my mind, greatly out- weighed by other considerations : but still I should have admitted it to be a fair and valid objection. I consider however the objection to be much stronger, — the danger much greater, — when some restrictions on rehgious grounds are removed, and some retained, than if all, without exception, were removed. For, the Legislature does, now, admit that religious differences may he a just ground for civil disabilities ; and yet it takes no account of any differences among those who do but profess Christianity. We lay ourselves open therefore to the inference, that we regard it as of little or no consequence what faith a man holds, provided he will acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. Suppose the Bill in question passed, which would, virtually, remove, in this Country, all disabilities connected with religion ; it may be hoped that men of common sense and candour will understand immediately, and the rest, in time, that we have adopted, not such a mon- strous conclusion as that religion altogether is a matter of no consequence ; but this ; that it is a matter between each man's own conscience jews' relief bill. 463 and God ; — that no one's religious opinions, so long as he does not molest his neighbours, ought to interfere with his civil rights — and that, as men, we should employ our conscience to sit in judgment on ourselves, not on our brother ; whose religious errors, however great, and scruples, however foolish, should not pre- vent us as civil legislators, from treating him as a good citizen, so long as he shows himself qualified and disposed to act as such. Such, I say, is the principle on which I think we should, before long, be understood to have acted. But on what principle can we be said to proceed now? How are we, as the law at present stands, to guard against the danger of being understood to proclaim the indifference of all forms of Christianity ? One sect of pro- fessed Christians admit the fallibility in religious doctrine, of the Apostles themselves ; and hold them inspired merely as to their declaration of the divine mission of Jesus Christ : another class refer to the Holy Scriptures and to nothing else, as the source of religious infallibility : another hold the perpetual inspiration and infallibility of their own Church ; and others 464 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE maintain the inspiration of Swedenbourg or of Southcote, or of the followers of Mr. Irving. And numerous other differences of no less mo- ment are to be found, unhappily, among pro- fessed Christians. " Yet all these," the people may say to the legislature, " all these you have pronounced, by admitting to office every pro- fessed Christian, to be matters of no conse- quence. And though men of any of these different persuasions, however erroneous, may, conceivably, be impressed with a sincere sense of religion, he who is indifferent about all these points, and, like Gallio, ' cares for none of these things,' must be indifferent to religion altogether. That abstract general Christianity, which is no particular kind of Christianity, and which pro- nounces the unimportance of all points on which any Christians have differed, can be only a very thinly-veiled Deism." What can we answer to such a charge ? Can we say, We do not declare the intrinsic unim- portance of religious differences; only, we will not allow them to be taken into account in questions concerning civil rights ?" This would be a most reasonable, and to all right-minded jews' relief bill. 465 men, satisfactory answer, if all religious distinc- tions whatever were thus waived in reference to civil concerns. But the one last-remaining barrier, which, on that ground, is so earnestly maintained by some, — the restriction affecting the Jews — precludes us from taking our stand on this, the only just and consistent principle. We are thus placed — as those frequently are who adopt half-measures — in a false position ; and debarred from occupying the post which is really defensible. We cannot evince our regard for religion, either on the one hand, by drawing the line (as formerly) between what we regard as the true, and all others ; since we have now admitted to civil rights the members of various churches : nor again, on the other hand, by drawing the line between religious and civil concerns ; since we exclude Jews, avowedly on religious grounds. We are left therefore to attempt drawing the line between the admitted and the excluded, with reference to the degrees of religious difference ; — to the comparative im- portance of each religious error. And while any class of men are excluded from civil advan- tages, avowedly on the ground of the importance H H 466 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE of their religious errors, we must never expect to convince the world that we do not regard as unimportant the errors which we do not make a ground of such exclusion. It appears evident therefore to me, that the danger apprehended from the overthrow of this one remaining religious barrier, — the danger of being understood to proclaim indifference as to religious truth in the minds of our legislators, — is a danger which exists in a much greater degree as the law now stands, than if we were to legislate throughout on a consistent and intelligible principle : and that to re- move that last barrier, is essential, — precisely because it is the last, — as a safeguard against that very danger. The above heads comprise the substance of all that I remember to have heard alleged — all, I mean, of an argumentative character — in op- position to the proposed Bill. And on the most careful and unbiassed re-examination of those arguments, it appeared to me, for the reasons I have assigned, that those of them which are properly applicable to the present question, do jews' relief bill. 467 in reality lead to an opposite conclusion to that which they were employed to support. I think it right to advert in this place to some principles — not indeed substantially novel, — but recently set forth in a manner that calls for respectful consideration, and which are at vari- ance with what I have been maintaining. Not that any reply to the foregoing arguments has been, as far as I know, even attempted : but the principles I allude to would lead, by implica- tion, to a conclusion opposite to mine ; and they are the more worthy of notice, as the opposition is not in points of detail, but in fundamentals. The system of admitting certain classes of men to no more than a state of imperfect citizenship, — or rather, more properly speaking, to the condition of subjects but not citizens, — has been vindicated and recommended by the example of the Grecian and other ancient com- monwealths ; and it has been proposed to make sameness of Religion correspond, in modern states, to the sameness of Race, among the ancients ; — to substitute for their hereditary citizenship, the H H 2 468 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE profession of Christianity in one and the same National Church, Now to me it does appear that this would be the worst possible imitation, of one of the worst of the Pagan institutions ; that it would be not only still more unwise than the unwise example proposed, but also even more opposite to the spirit of the Christian Religion, than to the maxims of sound policy. Of the system itself, under various modi- fications, and of its effects, under a variety of circumstances, we find abundant records throughout a large portion of history, ancient and modern ; from that of the Israelites when sojourners in Egypt, down to that of the Turkish Empire and its Greek and other Christian sub- jects. And in those celebrated ancient Republics of which we have such copious accounts in the classic writers, it is well known, that a man's being born of free parents within the territory of a certain State, had nothing to do with conferring civil rights ; while his contributing towards the expenses of its government, was rather considered as the badge of an alien (Matt. xvii. 25) ; the imposing of a tax on the jews' relief lilLL. 469 citizens being mentioned by Cicero as something calamitous and disgraceful, and not to be thought of but in some extraordinary emergency. Nor were the proportionate numbers at all taken into account. In Attica the Metoeci or sojourners appear to have constituted about a third of the free population ; but the Helots in Lacedaemon, and the subjects of the Car- thaginian and Roman republics, outnumbered the citizens, probably as much or more than the Roman -Catholics of Ireland the Protestants. Nor again were alien-famihes considered as such in reference to a more recent settlement in the territory ; on the contrary, they were often the ancient occupiers of the soil, who had been subdued by another Race ; as the Siculi (from whom Sicily derived its name), by the Siceliots or Greek colonists. The system in question has been explained and justified on the ground that distinctions of Race implied important religious and moral differences ; such that the admixture of men thus differing in the main points of human hfe, would have tended, unless one Race had a complete ascendancy, to confuse all notions af 470 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE right and wrong. And the prmciple, accordingly, of the ancient republics, — which has been thence commended as wise and good — has been repre- sented as that of making agreement in religion and morals the test of citizenship. That this however was not — at least in many instances — even the professed principle, is unde- niable. The Lacedaemonians reduced to Helot- ism the Messenians, who were of Doric Race like themselves ; while it appears from the best authorities, that the kings of those very Lace- daemonians were of a different race from the People, being not of Dorian but of Achaian extraction. There could not have been there- fore, at least universally, any such total incom- patibility between the moral institutions and principles of the different Races. If however in any instances such an in- compatibility did exist, or (what is far more probable) such a mutual jealousy and dislike originating in a narrow spirit of clanship — as to render apparently hopeless the complete amalgamation of two tribes as fellow-citizens on equal terms, the wisest, — the only wise — course would have been, an entire separation. jews' relief bill. 471 Whether the one tribe migrated in a mass to settle elsewhere, or the territory were divided between the two, so as to form distinct inde- pendent States, — in either mode, it would have been better for both parties, than that one should remain tributary subjects of the other. Even the expulsion of the Moors and Jews from Spain, was not, I am convinced, so great an evil, as it would have been to retain them as a degraded and tributary class, like the Greek subjects of the Turkish empire. For, if there be any one truth which the deductions of reason alone, independent of His- tory, would lead us to anticipate, and which again. History alone would establish, indepen- dently of antecedent reasoning, it is this : that a whole class of men placed permanently under the ascendancy of another, as subjects, without the rights of citizens, must be a source, at the best, of weakness, and generally, of danger, to the State. They cannot well be expected, and have rarely been found, to evince much hearty patriotic feeling towards a community in which their neighbours look down on them as an inferior and permanently degraded species. 472 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE While kept in brutish ignorance, poverty, and weakness, they are likely to feel, like the ass in the fable, indifferent whose panniers they bear. If they increase in power, wealth, and mental development, they are likely to be ever on the watch for an opportunity of shaking off a degra- ding yoke. Even a complete general despotism, weighing down all classes without exception, is, in general, far more readily borne than invidious distinctions drawn between a favoured and a de- pressed race of subjects ; for men feel an insult more than a mischief done to them ; and feel no insult so much as one daily and hourly inflicted by their immediate neighbours. A Persian sub- ject of the great King had probably no greater share of civil rights than a Helot ; but he was likely to be less galled by his depression, from being surrounded by those who though some of them possessed power and dignity as compared with himself, yet were equally destitute of civil rights, and abject slaves in common with him, of the one great despot. It is notorious accordingly how much Sparta was weakened and endangered by the Helots, always ready to avail themselves of any public jews' relief bill. 473 disaster as an occasion for revolt. The frightful expedient was resorted to of thinning their num- bers from time to time by an organized system of massacre ; yet though great part of the terri- tory held by Lacedaemon was left a desert,* secu- rity could not be purchased even at this price. We find Hannibal again maintaining himself for sixteen years in Italy against the Romans ; and though scantily supplied from Carthage, recruit- ing his ranks, and maintaining his positions, by the aid of Roman subjects. Indeed almost every page of History teaches the same lesson, and pro- claims in every different form, how long shall these men be a snare unto us ? let the people go, that they may serve their God ; knowest thou not yet that Egypt is destroyed ?" " the remnant of these nations which thou shalt not drive out, shall be pricks in thine eyes, and thorns in thy side." But besides the other causes which have always operated to perpetuate, in spite of expe- rience, so impolitic a system, the difficulty of changing it when once estabhshed, is one of the greatest. The false step is one which it is pecu- harly difficult to retrace. Men long debarred * Thucyd. b. iv. 474 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE from civil rights, almost always become ill fitted to enjoy them. The brutalizing effects of op- pression, which cannot immediately be done away by its removal, at once furnish a pretext for justifying it, and make relief hazardous. Kind and liberal treatment, if very cautiously and judiciously bestowed, will gradually and slowly advance men towards the condition of being worthy of such treatment : but treat men as ahens or enemies, — as slaves, as children, or as brutes, and they will speedily and completely justify your conduct.* But I have said not only that the policy of these ancient states was unwise, but that for Christians to make fellow-membership of the same Church the foundation of that agreement in religion and morals which is to be the test of citizenship, is the worst possible imitation of a bad example. * The Vaudois, oppressed as they have long been by their government, afford, if we may rely on statements which seem well worthy of credit, a remarkable exception to this rule. If the accounts we have be correct, of their near approach, both in the purity of their religion, and in their character, to the primitive Christians, we may infer that in both instances the same religion has operated to produce — as it was designed to do, — the same effects on the character. jews' relief bill. 475 The system of the ancient States, bad as it was, was exempt from one great evil, — that of holding out a bounty on hypocritical apostasy. When one race, whether distinguished by the colour of their skin, — their hereditary religious rites, — or otherwise — is excluded, permanently, generation after generation, from civil rights, pernicious and dangerous as such a system is, it is still far preferable to that of making the adherence to a national Church — a Church open to all who choose to profess adherence to it — the test of citizenship. For, under this system, whoever is in his heart indifferent about all religion, unscrupulous in point of veracity, and also dead to all sense of disgrace, will not fail to make an outward profession of the national religion, when allured by the prospect of advantage. He may be tempted by the wish for political privileges, or by a desire of inheriting an estate to the exclusion of the rest of his family, (as under the penal code), or of obtaining, if a priest, a pension of 40/. per annum. From such men, the ranks of the dominant Church are from time to time re- cruited. Some of the descendants of such men 476 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE are said to have proved valuable and worthy members of our Church. They deserve double credit, for being such in spite of such manifold disadvantages in respect of their parents ; but the experiment can hardly be thought a safe and desirable one. Hypocrisy however, I have heard it urged,, can never, do all we can, be rooted out of the world. This is true ; and the same may be said of many other evils ; but we do not on that account court them as goods, and study to increase their amount. Unavoidable evils, or those which can only be avoided by incurring greater, we submit to as far as they are unavoid- able, and because they are so. For instance, no vigilance can completely secure us against false professions of friendship, made from mercenary motives ; but there are few persons who would take measures to increase the number of insin- cere and pretended friends. And yet, in this case, there is some counterbalancing advantage : real services may be done, from mercenary mo- tives, by those whose affection is a mere pretence. And it is the same with insincere pretensions to moral virtue : one who abstains from bad jews' relief bill. 477 actions, not through any virtuous principle, but merely for the sake of worldly advantage, is a better member of society, though not a better man, than a bare-faced profligate ; and he who reheves the poor, not out of charity but ostentation, benefits them at least, though not himself. But religious hypocrisy is an un- mixed evil, and has no countervailing advantage ; since an insincere profession of faith benefits no one, and only tends to cast a suspicion, when detected, on the sincerity of others. But many, it may be said, — and no doubt with truth, — of the Roman Catholics in the times of the laws lately repealed, and of the Jews under the present laws, have embraced our religion with perfect sincerity, uninfluenced by any secu- lar motives. These persons then, by the very supposition, (and probably many others also who were prevented from becoming converts through a dread of the imputation of unworthy motives) would have joined our Church under a system of perfect religious freedom. The opposite system therefore has no effect on those of a disinterested character, except to present an additional ob- stacle to their conversion, and to visit it with an 478 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE additional penalty ; a penalty the most galling to a generous mind. When a man has the prejudices of education to encounter, and pro- bably the esteem and affection of his dearest friends to forego, he has surely enough diffi- culties in the way of an unbiassed judgment, and a resolution to act upon it, without our gra- tuitously superadding a still greater hindrance, — the impossibility of clearing his character from the suspicion, however undeserved, of being a hypocritical and mercenary apostate. The holding out of secular inducements there- fore, in the shape of admission to civil privileges, while it never can produce conformity, except in men of the basest character, must have the effect of preventing it, in many of those of an opposite character. When therefore we divide the subjects of any State into a privileged and a degraded caste, we are guilty of a grievous error ; but when, in addition to this, we make a provision for recruiting continually the ranks of the dominant class from the scum and refuse of the depressed class, and at the same time for excluding as far as possible the more high- minded of that depressed class, we have carried jews' relief bill. 479 to the utmost the perverse ingenuity of absurd legislation. It will be observed that in the present argu- ment I have all along spoken of the proposed bond and test of citizenship as consisting in " conformity to one and the same National Church;'' using this phrase, as being more pre- cise, in preference to that of *^ profession of Christianity," which evidently must be meant to convey, in the theory alluded to, the very same sense. For it is plain that this is the only sense in which the '^profession of Christianity" could tend to secure the very object proposed, of estabhshing that " agreement in religion and morals" which is to be made the test of citizen- ship. Nothing, it is evident, would be gained as to this point, by merely establishing the re- quisition that all the citizens should admit the mere title of Christians, while they were left to be Christians of distinct Churches, totally'inde- pendent of the State and of each other. The thing proposed therefore manifestly is, that some National Church should be established, so com- prehensive as to comprise as nearly as possible all Christians ; and that all who refused to join 480 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE this Church, whether Christians, Jews, or of any other denomination, should be excluded from civil privileges. This is important to be observed ; because though I should gladly see the terms of com- munion of every church placed on the most comprehensive footing that is compatible with internal peace, there are some differences among Christians (even supposing all difficulties re- lative to points of faith, to be got over) which I think must, even in the views of the most sanguine, preclude them from ever being mem- bers of the same religious community. Those, for instance, who maintain the absolute unlaw- fulness of endowments, could not, in any way that I can conceive, become members of a church possessing endowments. No one should therefore be so far misled by specious language as to calculate on none but Jews and Infidels being, under the proposed system, excluded from civil rights. But there is another circumstance also which must not be left out of the calculation ; viz. that many Christians who might be willing to conform to a Church constituted on certain jews' relief bill. 481 principles, provided it were left to their free choice, would utterly refuse conformity if en- forced under the penalty of jmlitical degradation, " It matters nothing," says Dean Swift, very truly, " how wide you make the door, for those who take a pride and a pleasure in not coming in." Now the very recipe for producing, in many minds, this pride and pleasure, is, to make conformity a test for admissibility to civil rights. Many would be found stickling for even minute points, (which, under a system of perfect freedom, they would have readily conceded,) lest they should be suspected of yielding from unworthy motives, and purchasing, by concessions against their conscience, the rights that were unjustly withheld. So that even among those brought up as Christians, as well as among Jews, the system would have the effect of alluring into conformity the worldly, the unscrupulous, and the shameless; while on men of the op- posite character it would have the opposite effect. Now this, as I have before observed, may be reckoned the very perfection of bad legislation. Yet unwise and unsafe in a legislative point 1 I 482 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE of view as such a system has been shown to be, I regard its poHtical inexpediency as a trifle, in comparison of its contrariety to the whole spirit of the Gospel, and the false and injurious impression it tends to create of the character of our religion. If, when Jesus at his examination before the Roman governor, declared his " kingdom to be not of this world," he is to be considered as having designed a reservation to his disciples of a power to establish, whenever they should be strong enough, the political ascendancy of his religion, reducing all who would not embrace it to the condition of vassals under tribute, without the rights of citizens, — let any one reflect, who attributes to Him this meaning, what a disin- genuous subterfuge they are imputing to Him. He meant, I have heard it said, not to claim for Christians, as Christians, any peculiar pohtical power beyond what was claimed and exercised by every tribe, race, or clan of men, in any Country in which they could possess themselves of sufficient influence. Now every Tribe having been accustomed (as has been above remarked) to establish, wherever they were able, a mono- jews' relief bill. 483 poly of political rights for themselves, keeping all other inhabitants of the same territory in a state of tributary subjection, this was probably the very thing apprehended by those who persecuted the early Christians as disaffected persons. They probably understood the renun- ciation by Jesus of temporal sovereignty, exactly according to the above interpretation ; and what is more, it would be hard to prove that they were not justified in their conduct, supposing that interpretation to be a true one. For to what would the disavowal, on the part of Chris- tians, of political designs, have amounted, on that supposition ? Merely, that they were con- tent to forego all such claims till they should be strong enough to enforce them : but that when- ever, and wherever, they might amount either to a majority, or a sufficiently powerful minority to exercise dominion (as the Lacedaemonians over the Helots, or the Romans over the Pro- vincials,) they would subjugate, in like manner, all who did not belong to their own body, and exclude them from the rights of citizens. These men, it might have been urged, and probably was urged by their opponents, profess their readi- II 2 484 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE ness to " pay tribute to Caesar," and to honour kings and all who are in authority : but when they acquire sufficient power, they will doubt- less enact that none but those who belong to their own body shall be in authority : Caesar, and every other sovereign and magistrate, they will pronounce disqualified, except on condition of embracing their faith, not only for his office, but for all the rights of a citizen : they really are aiming at the subversion of the existing governments ; and only waive their pretensions to political domination till they shall have be- come strong enough to assert them : we must endeavour therefore, in self-defence, to put down this rising sect. Such, I have little doubt, were the suspicions entertained (and, if the foregoing interpreta- tion be correct, justly entertained) by the early adversaries of Christianity. And how did the Apostles and early Apologists meet these sus- picions ? By earnestly disavowing all designs of political interference, and on that ground claimbig exemption from the censure of the civil magistracy, as not proper objects of political jealousy, since they did not aim at political jews' relief bill. 485 ascendancy.* But they did aim at political ascendancy, if, while seeking by conversions to increase their numbers, they secretly designed to monopolize, as soon as they should be strong enough, the rights of citizenship, and to hold in subjection as vassals all who did not belong to their Body. The conclusion therefore seems inevitable, unless we attribute insincerity to the early Chris- tians, and to their Master, that his declarations cannot bear the interpretation I have alluded to ; and that we must understand his description of his kingdom as not of this world in the plain simple sense, as debarring all Christians from any claim to monopolize political power to themselves, either as Christians or as members of any particular church ; — from making sub- scription to their creed a test of citizenship. If He and his Apostles did not mean to forbid this, I am at loss to conceive in what terms they could have forbidden it. Of course it was to be expected, that as * I need not cite the numerous and well-known passages to this effect which occur in the Acts, and in many of the Epistles. 486 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE Christianity succeeded in improving the tone of morals, many abominations — such as gladia- torial shows and impure rites — which were tolerated or even enjoined among Pagans, would, very justly, be prohibited by Christian legislators : but it is as being immoral and per- nicious actions that we are bound as legislators to the forcible suppression of these. It sounds, indeed, very plausible to speak of political society being ordained for higher purposes than the temporal welfare of mankind, and the security of their persons and property ; — the purposes, as they have been contemptuously styled, of mere police or traffic : but after all, it is plain^that external conduct alone comes directly and completely within the reach of the coercive power with which the magistrate is armed; and external conduct does not con- stitute virtue and religion. The very same action may be morally virtuous or vicious according to the motives of the agent ; and legislative enactments do not control motives. All lawgivers forbid us to steal our neighbour's goods ; but it is only a divine lawgiver that can effectuallv forbid us to covet them. It sounds JEWS* RELIEF BILL. 487 well to speak of political society deciding what is or is not essential and eternal, and giving to its decisions the sanction of the truth of God: but after all, this sanction can only extend to those who believe such and such an institution to be conformable to the truth of God : and a rational behef of this must be based on evidence very different from that of its being the law of the land. The legislator may, indeed, take upon him to choose for the people what their religion shall be, and to declare authoritatively that it is sanctioned by the truth of God : but though he can enforce outward conformity, he cannot enforce well-grounded conviction. And it should be remembered, that since it is a point of morality to submit to the ordi- nances of man for the Lord's sake," and to " render unto all their due, tribute, to whom tribute is due, fear, to whom fear, honour, to whom honour," it follows that, if it be a part of the province of the civil magistrate to enforce not only abstinence from crime, but religious and moral agreement among all the citizens, then, those Christians who adhered to their faith under Pagan governments, were trans- 488 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE gressing the precepts of their own Apostles; and the same with Christians in Mahometan, and with Protestants in Roman Catholic States. For right and obligation must be reciprocal : wherever the lawful magistrate has right to enjoin, the subject must be hound to obey. The Apostles, therefore, it is plain, must have had a far different notion of the proper province of the civil magistrate ; to whom they exhorted their followers to render the obedience due, without the least idea that this extended to matters of religion. For we cannot surely suppose that the Apostles intended to assign unquestioned authority in religious concerns to the magistrate, provided he were a Christian, but not otherwise. This would, indeed, have been to make Christ's kingdom emphatically a king- dom of this world ;" — by assigning to a Christian magistrate a degree of political power which they denied to a heathen; — and also a "king- dom divided against itself;" since it would have sanctioned the practice of which history pre- sents us with so many examples, of Christians of one persuasion employing the secular arm to put down those of another. JEWS RELIEF BILL. 489 The mode by which the maintainers of the above theory usually endeavour to avoid this difficulty is by alleging, that since, after all, we must obey God rather than man, subjects are bound to follow the magistrate's directions in respect of religion so far, and only so far, as they in their conscience believe these to be conformable to the Divine will. This may safely be conceded ; since it requires no more compliance towards the magistrate than is due towards each of our neighbours ; whom we clearly ought to agree with in respect of religion, so far as we conscientiously believe them to be in the right. But this also ought surely to be conceded ; that a man who con- scientiously differs in his religious behef, either from the magistrate or from any of his neigh- bours, ought not to be either compelled to disown his behef, or, so long as he shows himself an orderly, peaceable, and upright member of society, to be excluded from the rights of citizenship in all that relates to temporal concerns. Now this is all I contend for. And here it may be proper to observe, that in protesting against the claim of the civil 490 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE magistrate to prescribe to his subjects what shall be their religious faith, I have confined myself to the consideration that such a decision is beyond the province of a secular ruler ; instead of dilating, as some writers have done, on the impossibihty of having any ruler whose judg- ment shall be infallible. That infallibility cannot be justly claimed by uninspired man, is indeed very true, but nothing to the present purpose. A man may claim — as the Apostles did — infal- libihty in matters of faith, without thinking it allowable to enforce conformity by secular coercion ; and again, he may think it right to employ that coercion without thinking himself infallible. In fact all legislators do this in respect of temporal concerns, such as con- fessedly come within the province of human legislation. Much as we have heard of religious infaUibility, no one, I conceive, ever pretended to universal legislative infallibility. And yet every legislature enforces obedience, under penalties, to the laws it enacts in civil and criminal transactions ; not, on the ground of their supposing themselves exempt from error of judgment ; but because they are bound to jews' relief bill. 491 legislate— though conscious of being fallible — according to the best of their judgment ; and to enforce obedience to each law till they shall see cause to repeal it. What should hinder them, if rehgion be one of the things coming within their province, from enforcing conformity on the same principle to their enactments respecting that ? A lawgiver sees the expe- diency of a uniform rule with regard, suppose to weights and measures, or to the descent of property ; he frames, without any pretensions to infallibility, the best rule he can think of ; or perhaps, merely a rule which he thinks as GOOD as any other; and enforces uniform com- pliance with it : this being a matter confessedly within his province. Now if religion be so too, he may feel himself called on to enforce uni- formity in that also ; not believing himself infallible either in matters of faith or in matters of expediency ; but holding himself bound, in each case alike, to frame such enactments as are in his judgment advisable, and enforce comphance with them ; as King James in his prefatory proclamation respecting the Thirty- nine Articles announces his determination to 492 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE allow of no departure from them whatever. I do not conceive that he thought himself gifted with infalhbility ; but that he saw an advantage in religious uniformity, and there- fore held himself authorized and bound to enforce it by the power of the secular magis- trate. The whole question therefore turns, not on any claim to infallibility, but on the extent of the province of the civil magistrate, and of the applicability of legal coercion. I cannot quit this important subject, which has detained me longer than I had designed, without noticing an ingenious and well-written pamphlet, On the Law of Religious Libel," under the name of John Search.* In the author's general conclusion I heartily concur; and indeed I hardly know on what principle the present vague and inconsistent state of the law can be vindicated. But there are two errors in the work, which, though incidental, and not affecting the general conclusion, are of too much intrinsic importance to be left unnoticed. The first is, where it is assumed, casually and incidentally, that the fact of Christ's miracles * See Edinburgh Review, No. 118. jews' relief bill. 493 was denied at the time by those who rejected Him. It is strange that any educated man should be so ignorant, or should calculate on his readers being so ignorant, as not to know that the evan- gelists, with one voice, and repeatedly, describe the adversaries of Jesus as agreed in fully ad- mitting the miracles, — all but that of his own resurrection, — and ascribing them to the agency of demons commanded by magical arts. It is true we have no right at once to assume ^ the veracity of these Christian writers ; but, on the other side, to take for granted at once that their accounts are the reverse of the truth, is palpably begging the question. And if we seek for evidence of the denial of the miracles by adver- saries, at the time, we find it all on the opposite side. All the fragments and notices that have come down to us of the early attacks and apo- logies ; all the traditions of the Jews respecting the belief of their ancestors, concur in confirming the accounts of the Evangelists as to this point ; that the unbehevers of those days admitted the miracles, and ascribed them to magic. These Jewish traditions on the subject have been col- lected into a volume, which has been for ages in 494 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE circulation among that people, and which has been not long since translated into English by some person who thought it would do a dis- service to Christianity, under the title of the " Gospel according to the Jews." At whatever time the volume was compiled (which is un- certain, though it is unquestionably very ancient) it must have been compiled from existing tra- ditions, of no later date than the first origin of Christianity ; since it is morally impossible, that if the first opponents of Jesus had denied the fact of the miracles, all traces of their belief should have died away, and the hypothesis of magic have been devised afterwards, and substi- tuted for one so much more decisive. And so minutely does this volume coincide with the assertion of the evangelists, that it contains a laboured attempt to impugn the fact of the resurrection, while it denies no other miracle, and expressly mentions several. Now the whole of this branch of evidence is put on a totally different footing when it is thus ascertained that the miracles were admitted by opponents at the time ; for, credulous as that People were in regard to magic, this plea would jews' relief bill. 495 never have been resorted to if they could have thrown even any suspicion on any one of the miracles ; since the hypothesis of magic only went to prove that a man who wrought miracles might possibly not come from God, and left the question, whether he did or not, to be decided on other grounds : whereas the detection of a single imposture would have settled the question at once, and proved decisively that he could not be from God. A position then so rashly assumed (to say the least) without evidence, and against evidence, and which goes to change the whole face of the argument from miracles, ought to be imme- diately and publicly abandoned. The other error in the work alluded to, is a mistaken and invalid objection to a remark, — a very important one, — which appeared in an article in the London Review,* to this effect, — that in many cases, and not least in questions concerning the divine origin of Christianity, a * In 1829. Saunders and Otley. There is another peri- odical under the same title, at present, with publisher, con- ductor, principles, and, in short, every thing but title, totally different. 496 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE well-grounded belief may be based on premises whose truth we have not and could not have ascertained for ourselves, by personal investiga- tion ; and which again we do not take on trust from the testimony of those whom we have chosen to follow implicitly, but which we believe on uncontradicted testimony, inasmuch as the statements in question are open to every one's investigation, and would, we are sure, be im- pugned by many, if they were at all doubtful. The distance of the earth, for instance, from the sun is believed, and believed on good grounds, by many who are incompetent to make the requisite observations and calculations for them- selves, not on the bare authority of certain astronomers, but on the tacit confirmation of this by all the rest, many of whom would, we are sure, be glad to be able to rectify, if they could, any error into which their rivals in the pursuit of scientific fame might have fallen. Now, in the pamphlet alluded to, it is contended that this does not apply in the case of any evi- dences relative to Christianity, because the laws forbid the publication of a denial of the truth of Christianity. But this objection rests on a jews' relief bill. 497 palpable mis-statement of the argument, which refers to such points only as all persons are fully at liberty to discuss, even under the most rigid interpretation of the law. For instance, the existence and antiquity of certain Greek and Latin MSS., the fidelity of translations, the testimonies of Pagan writers, the existence of various monuments, &c., are points necessarily involved in the discussion of the external evi- dences of Christianity; and yet few of the educated, and none of the uneducated classes, ever saw an ancient Greek MS., or could read it, if they did : few can attest from their own personal knowledge, even the existence of such a city as Jerusalem. And yet it is maintained — and very rightly — that we are justified in be- lieving matters of this kind, on the testimony of those who have made the investigation, when no one has attempted to deny them ; for all men are fully at liberty to question the genuineness of any ancient MS., or the fidelity of any par- ticular translation, &c. The objection, therefore, is wholly inapplicable. But the general conclusion as to the law of Hbel is, I think, fully established ; and I would K K 498 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE add, that the present state of things, in reference to that law, is such as a judicious advocate of Christianity must lament, and an insidious oppo- nent ought to rejoice in secretly, while he pub- licly complains of it ; for it does in fact enable him, with a very moderate exercise of caution, to urge, in substance, all he has to say against our religion, and, at the same time, to hint that he could say much more, if the law would allow him ; and that Christians dare not run the hazard of a perfectly free discussion. There is, however, in reference to the removal of the civil disabihties of Jews, one consideration of great weight, and which, accordingly, I no- ticed early in the Speech, as one which would have constituted, considered in the abstract, a valid objection to the measure ; viz. the anomaly of making persons of a different religion eligible to situations in which they may have to legislate, in all matters, ecclesiastical as well as temporal, for our Church. The anomaly, however, already exists : the exclusion of the Jews serves not to prevent, but only to disguise, — perhaps dangerously dis- jews' relief bill. 499 guise^ — any danger that may arise from it. No practical objection, therefore, can fairly be raised, on this ground, against the present measure ; — a measure which, by rendering the anomaly, though not at all more real, yet more glaring, may answer the beneficial purpose of calling our attention to the providing a rational and effec- tual remedy. To attempt promoting the security and the welfare of the Church, by excluding from all power, — civil as well as ecclesiastical, — those who aire not members of it, would now be not less vain than unjust. But to aim at the same object, by entrusting the regulation of ec- clesiastical affairs (as contra-distinguished from secular) to the hands of members of the Church, would, I am confident, be as practicable as it would be evidently reasonable. And fortunately, the very circumstance which makes more glaringly evident the present incon- gruous condition of the Church, removes at the same time the chief obstacle to an alteration of that condition. It seems strange, at the first glance, that the Church should not possess the same advantage which is enjoyed by every other society, — whether religious, civil, literary, K K 2 500 ADDITIONAL REMARKS ON THE scientific, or of whatever other description, — of having its internal regulations revised, from time to time, with a view to the advance- ment of the proper objects of the society. The obstacle to this has been, that other objects were connected with these; — other interests involved. As long as the members of a certain church possess a monopoly of political power, there is the more reason for watching with a jealous eye, with a view to political objects, its internal regu- lations ; and for requiring it to be governed on political principles. But now that this monopoly is at an end, it seems but reasonable that the internal affairs of the Church should be regulated (as formerly) by her own members; and without exciting, as before, any of that jealousy which is not felt towards the Methodists, or the Quakers, or again towards our several endowed Univer- sities. It is from my anxiety to inculcate these prin- ciples, and from their close connexion with a portion of what has been above said, that I have subjoined the observations I made in the House, jews' relief bill. 501 on the occasion of presenting a petition from the Clergy of the diocese of Kildare. A petition of the same general tendency had been just before presented, and attention invited to the matter of it, by the Bishop of London. OBSERVATIONS MADE ON PRESENTING A PETITION TO THE HOUSE OF LORDS FROM THE CLERGY OF THE DIOCESE OF KILDARE, RELATIVE TO CHURCH REFORM. AUGUST 7, 1833. eTTiXvOndETai. Acts xix. 39. " Cum per se res mutentur in deterius, si consilio in melius non mutentur, quis finis erit mali?" Bacon. A SPEECH, MY LORDS,: I HAVE the honour to present to your Lordships a petition from the Archdeacon and Clergy of the Diocese of Kildare, signed by the Archdeacon in their names; and, as the petition is very short, I will read the whole of it : It states — " That your petitioners, aware that every thing human, civil, or ecclesiastical, requires, from time to time, revision and correction, do not consider the United Church of England and Ireland exempt from this principle. " That, in the humble opinion of your peti- tioners, the ecclesiastical laws, by which the 506 SPEECH ON THE PETITION Church is now governed^ require better adaptation to the altered circumstances of the Country. That the practice of our Ecclesiastical Courts, in matters connected with the welfare of the Church and best interests of religion, has ceased to be conducive to the important objects for which they were originally esta- blished. " That the Church of England and Ireland, viewed as an important integral part of the Church of Christ, ought, as such, to enjoy the privilege permitted to other Churches and religious Bodies, of being governed by such laws as best promote the performance of the sacred duties required of her ministry, and provide for the spiritual discipline of her members. - " That they consider it highly important to the safety and prosperity of his Majesty's dominions that the Church should be so governed, inasmuch as the doctrines and precepts which she maintains, when duly in- culcated, must always exercise the most im- portant influence over the consciences of his FROM THE CLERGY OF KILDARE. 507 Majesty's subjects ; teaching them, on the highest principle, the duty of submission and obedience to the laws which the wisdom of the Legislature may enact. " Your petitioners, therefore, humbly pray that your Lordships, if it should be deemed advisable, will be pleased to enact such laws as may appear most calculated to promote the spiritual improvement of our Church, and to renovate and reform its government, so as to render it more suitable and better adapted to the altered circumstances of the country." Now, my Lords, I am desirous to mention that the prayer of this petition, though entirely in accordance with the views of the Bishop of the Diocese of Kildare, — as I learn by a letter from himself, — yet was drawn up and agreed to at a public meeting, without any suggestions from that Venerable Prelate, and is the spon- taneous act of the petitioners themselves. In presenting this petition to your Lordships, I cannot refrain from troubhng you with a few observations on the very important subject to which it refers. I beg to observe, however, that 508 SPEECH ON THE PETITION in stating what I believe to be the sentiments of the petitioners, I speak merely my own belief, as grounded on my own observation ; — and, T must add, no hasty or careless observation, — but not as authorized by any express commis- sion from them. I can confidently say, then, that I am satisfied they are not, in the smallest degree, ill-disposed towards the system estabhshed by our Protestant Reformers, and towards the fun- damental doctrines of the Church of England and Ireland, I say, confidently, my Lords, that they have no hostile feeling of this kind ; and that even whatever difference on any point of religion may exist between any of them, they are all agreed in sincere attachment to the system. I am perfectly and entirely convinced also, that, as far as civil government is concerned, there is not a more loyal Body of men living. Whatever differences of opinion they may enter- tain with respect to several political questions, of this I am convinced, that they venerate the Constitution of this Country, — and, as a part of that Constitution, the union of the two islands. FROM THE CLERGY OF KILDARE. 509 Any disturbance of the union between Great Britain and Ireland, either in Church or State, is the last thing they would seek. I am convinced, also, that they have no thought of complaining of any act of encroach- ment on the part of the civil Government in purely ecclesiastical affairs, — in matters alto- gether spiritual ; and that they have no idea themselves of encroaching on civil affairs. They have no wish, I conceive, of creating any thing like an imperium in imperio, — a Body empowered, like the original Convocation, exclusively to con- trol the temporalities of the Church. Nor do they again complain that the civil Power is dis- posed to do too much in religious matters. On the contrary, they perceive that the Parliament of this country, although the fountain of legis- lation in all matters, ecclesiastical as well as civil, has not considered the more purely eccle- siastical matters as coming properly and suitably within its province. No one has the power, at present, to interfere in the affairs of Church government, except the civil legislature ; yet the petitioners feel that Parliament, — even when it consisted, as formerly, exclusively of professed 510 SPEECH ON THE PETITION members of the Church, — has always shown a backwardness in interfering with subjects con- nected with the forms and internal regulations of the Church. I understand then the wish of these peti- tioners to be, that some inquiry should be instituted, or some Commission appointed to make inquiries, with a view to making such alterations in these matters as may be deemed expedient. They are not, however, as far as I know or believe, anxious for any great or fun- damental changes ; nor, indeed, for any changes at all, if, upon inquiry, they shall be considered unnecessary. But they feel, — and it is a feeling which pervades the minds of many men of scru- pulous conscience, — that there is at present no individual, or Body of individuals, to whom any questions of doubt and uncertainty, or of scruple and objection, may be referred, — no constituted Authority to whom application can be made, in order to determine, on examination, whether an alteration is needed or not. And I am myself convinced, that it is highly desirable, (without pretending to say whether any change is neces- sary or not,) that as regards proposed alterations FROM THE CLERGY OF KILDARE. 511 in the Liturgy, or in the Articles, or the ap- pointed Lessons, or the authorized version of the Scriptures,* and other matters of a hke description, there should be some responsible person, or Body of men, to whom such points might be referred for examination and inquiry, in order to determine whether alterations are or are not called for. It should be observed, my Lords, that serious alarm may be excited, even in reference to trivial matters, if there is no competent autho- rity to whom to apply. Some points of exceed- ingly small importance in themselves may be left in such a state as to be indicative of a neglect and apathetic disregard of Church- affairs ; and it is this point particularly which I imagine the petitioners regard with anxiety. They do not, I apprehend, object to the main principles of the Articles of the Church ; yet they cannot, I think, but consider that some of these Articles require revision. For example, — one of them contains a declaration in respect of * This last point, it should be observed, is one which con- cerns not only members of our Church, but also Dissenters ; almost all of whom use our version. 512 SPEECH ON THE PETITION the Homilies, that they contain "godly and wholesome doctrine, and necessary for these times" Now it never can be contended that the framers of the Articles designed to exact of all future generations such a nugatory decla- ration, as that of the suitableness of these Homi- lies for the time of Edward VL Their intention must have been, either that new Homilies, suited to the wants of successive periods, should be put forth from time to time, or else (supposing no need of such a procedure to arise) that the Article in question should be withdrawn. Neither of these has been done : and it is, therefore, indicative of a general neglect of the affairs of the Church, that these Homilies are left in the state in which they were at first framed, though every thing else has been chang- ing around them, — that the Article relating to them remains unaltered, — and that no Power or Authority exists whose business or province it is to look to such matters. The Lessons, again, appointed to be read, — the authorized version of the Scriptures, — and the Liturgy, — may be, all of them, just as per- fectly adapted for the present day, as they were FROM THE CLERGY OF KILDARE. 513 for the age in which they were framed ; but what, I conceive, the petitioners complain of is, that there is no person, or Body of persons, to decide whether they are so or not. If any word be obsolete, or if any doubt exists as to the propriety of a phrase, which it may by some be thought advisable to change, there is no one competent to decide the point ; there is no Body of men whose proper province it is to inquire as to the propriety of making the alte- ration. Both these petitioners, and, as far as I can learn, many of the Clergy both of Ireland and of England also, feel this strongly in their own minds, and consider it to be, in others, one of the great causes of dissent and defection, or of indifference towards the Estabhshed Church. It is a common feeling (whether well or ill- grounded) in the minds of many men, that incongruities and inconveniences do exist, and that a reform, greater or less, is required ; but the natural question is, how, and by whose authority, is it to be accomplished ? And there are many who are open to a feeling of disgust from the knowledge of there being no such L L 514 SPEECH ON THE PETITION competent Authority to effect that object. There are many, perhaps, of these persons who do not seek unnecessary change ; and who would even be perfectly satisfied, though on this or that point no alteration were made, provided it were cer- tified on proper authority, that every thing, in respect of any such point, was right, and that no alteration in it was desirable. If any building were but suspected of being in a state of dan- gerous decay, much alarm would be excited by its being understood that no workmen could, or would, be sent up to inspect the condition of its roof. But if such an examination did take place, and the result was, that every beam and rafter was found perfectly sound, and needing no repairs, no one would say that the sense of security thus obtained was too dearly purchased. Such are the feelings with which I conceive these petitioners come forward. I know that the same feelings are entertained by many Cler- gymen of my own diocese; — it is, therefore, not a feeling peculiar, — nor is there, indeed, any reason why it should be pecuhar, — to the Clergy of Kildare. I beheve, indeed, that the same exists to a great degree, not only in Ireland, but FROM THE CLERGY OF KILDARE. 515 in England also ; and I would beg to suggest that this is a state of things which ought not to be suffered to continue. I am addressing your Lordships, not as per- sons who regard the Church as a political engine, rather than as a religious institution ; — not as men zealous for the Establishment, merely as an establishment ; — as men anxious for the means, and indifferent to the end ; — as careful guardians of Church-property, merely as pro- perty ; without any regard for the great objects for which the Church was instituted and en- dowed,— the moral and religious improvement of the people ; — as caring, in short, more about the gold of the Temple," than the Temple that sanctifieth the gold," — but I address your Lordships as men fully sensible that the im- portant questions relative to the Church, which have lately been, and which are likely to be, anxiously discussed in this House, derive nearly the WHOLE OF their interest from their connexion with the matters to which this petition relates ; the utility, in a religious point of view, of the Church EstabHshment. Whatever differences of opinion may exist, as to the best means for L L 2 516 SPEECH ON THE PETITION securing that end, I trust your Lordships are agreed as to the paramount importance of the end itself. I, therefore, ask your Lordsliips, — with a view not only to the safety^ but also to the security of the Church, — its immunity not only from danger, but from apprehension of danger, — whether the state of things, which I have been describing, should still continue ? I trust such steps will be taken that the Church may be made not only secure, but efficient ; so as to satisfy and to benefit, as far as possible, all those who are wilhng to be satisfied. I trust the suggestions conveyed in this petition will not meet with neglect, or inattention ; and that some measures, in accord- ance with it, will be resolved on. I presume not — nor do the petitioners — to dictate to this House what particular course should be adopted, but only to suggest that some should be adopted, — for instituting inquiry into those matters con- nected with the religious functions of the Church, which may be considered as needing inquiry. Then, should it even be decided, that nothing whatever should be altered, but on the contrary, that every thing had better remain as it is, such FROM THE CLERGY OF KILDARE. 517 a declaration, coming from a competent autho- rity, would satisfy the minds of many persons who are now not satisfied ; because, then, they would be given to understand, that if alterations were not made, it was from its being ascertained, on deliberate inquiry, that they were not needed; and not merely because there are no persons duly authorized, who care to introduce them. APPENDIX THE SPEECH ON THE PETITION FROM THE CLERGY OF KILDARE. I HAVE only to add, that the views which I took this occasion to express, were not recently and hastily taken up — without consideration of difficulties and objections — to be as hastily abandoned as soon as objections are pointed out ; but are the result of long and earnest reflection, and deliberate conviction ; a con- viction, every day more strongly impressed on my mind, that the present anomalous situation of the Church, tends not only, in many ways, to diminish its efficiency, but is pregnant with continually-increasing danger and discredit. By the Church, I understand, not its ministers and APPENDIX TO THE SPEECH, &C. 519 its endowments, any farther than these are means towards an end; but the Christian Com- munity, considered as such. Any kind of spoh- ation of the Church, no one can deprecate more than myself; but I consider as the worst kind of spohation, any thing that tends to impair the efficiency, in a rehgious point of view, of the Estabhshment. There may be perhaps some, though I trust not many, even of the professed friends of the Estabhshment, who will ridicule the expression of such sentiments; who perhaps laughed se- cretly at their own expressions of earnest zeal in the cause of the Church ; and laugh openly at one who refers the importance of that cause to the spiritual value of that Church. To seek " first the kingdom of God and his righteous- ness" was not, in our Saviour's time, a principle universally approved or respected. He did not however the less steadily maintain his principles in defiance of censure and of scorn : and the Pharisees, which were covetous, heard these things, and they derided Him." But independent of the real dislike or indif- ference to religion which may exist in any 620 APPENDIX TO THE SPEECH pretended friends of the Establishment, the popu- lar use of language presents an impediment to the inculcation of just notions on this subject. By " the affairs of the Church" is too often understood " Church-p?' opert?/ " alone. And I am the more anxious to bring forward the views which (in common with many other members of the same rehgious community) I entertain, in order that we may not be misunderstood, as seeking to set up an imperium in imperio — to withdraw the temporalities of the Establish- ment from the control of the general legislature of the Country ; — or to confer civil authority on some clerical Body. Never was there a time when men were more jealous of being priest- ridden, — or less in danger of it. It is therefore the more important that those who contemplate inquiries and regulations in such matters only as pertain to every religious community, strictly as such, should come forward to explain distinctly what their views are ; lest different ones should be falsely imputed to them. But things have gone on very well," (I have been told) " for a long time past, just as they are : why then seek for any change ? " Now ON THE KILDARE PETITION. 521 the question as to the well — how far all matters pertaining to the Church are in a satis- factory state, — is a matter of opinion; and on which I am constrained to acknowledge, though with unfeigned wonder, that opinions differ : but the question as to the " length of time " that things have been on their present footing, is a question of fact ; and one on which there can, I conceive, be but one decision. It is but a very few years that Parliament, which is in practice the only legislature for the Church, has consisted of any persons avowedly neither mem- bers nor friends of the Church. But if these " (I have been told) should obtain a predomi- nating influence, and should use it to attempt any innovations in the Establishment, it will then be for its friends to resist any such attempt." This seems to me, I must confess, like beginning to prepare an ark amidst the rage of a deluge ; or commencing a countermine when the match is applied to the train. I confess, however, that it is not, solely or chiefly, from any direct result of the change in the constitution of Parhament, that I am led to apprehend, as unavoidable, some change in the 522 APPENDIX TO THE SPEECH existing constitution of the Church. At least, if the altered character of the Civil Legislature is likely to accelerate such a change, it must be, principally, by rendering more glaringly and more universally apparent that want of an Ecclesiastical Legislature, which, virtually and in practice, has long existed. Complaints of want of reform, or of inquiry, or of regulating power, cannot indeed be so easily answered by a reference to Parhament, now that ParHament no longer excludes those who are not professed members of the Church. But I feel convinced that even if Parliament had remained unaltered, some inspection into Ecclesiastical affairs would have been more and more loudly, and at length effectually, called for. The number is great, and is daily increasing, of those who think either that some change is desirable, or that it is unavoidable, or that, if neither desirable nor unavoidable, it can only be escaped, by means of a declaration, issuing from some competent authority, such as may satisfy men's minds. I know too, that such views are not confined to the adversaries of our Church, but are entertained by many of its friends, both lay ON THE KILDARE PETITION. 523 and clerical. And what is more, some of these, whose sincerity I cannot doubt, are disposed to advocate what appear to me such destructive innovations, that for this very reason (though I know it has an opposite effect on some minds) I am even much the more anxious to come forward as early and as strenuously as pos- sible, to join with the more rational and sober- minded, in advocating such timely and moderate measures, as can alone, I am persuaded, pre- serve us from having intemperate and dangerous ones forced upon us from other quarters. We have only the alternative of calmly examining for ourselves the walls of our fortress, and deliberately repairing them where they may be found decayed, or of waiting to have them rashly undermined from within, or battered down by assailants from without. For a fuller discussion of this subject, the reader is referred to a masterly and judicious pamphlet on " Church Government," by the Rev. Dr. Dickinson.* * I think it but right to mention, that though the author is one of my chaplains, the work, of which I saw no part till published, was written in Ireland, while I was attending par- 524 APPENDIX TO THE SPEECH With those who deprecate wanton or violent changes, I fully concur. But those who declaim on the advantages of preserving every thing unchanged, must be aware, that their views, however right, are purely speculative ; unless indeed they are really ignorant, not only of the designs of our early Reformers, but also of the great, though undesigned changes, even in the system those Reformers framed, which have since then crept in, incidentally, through the agency of the " greatest Innovator, Time."* To say that no changes shall take place, is to talk idly : we might as well pretend to control the course of the Sun. To say that none shall occur except such as are undesigned and acci- dental, is to say that though a clock may gain or lose indefinitely, at least we will take care it shall never be regulated. And since " (says Bacon) " things alter for the worse spon- taneously, if they be never altered for the better designedly, where is the evil to end ?" liamentary duties in England ; and contains, I am persuaded, the unbiassed and long-matured opinions, not only of the writer, but of several other of the most enlightened of the Irish Protestants. * Bacon. ON THE KILDARE PETITION. 525 With these sentiments, I should feel myself wanting in duty to my Master, if I suffered any regard fqr personal ease or credit — any dread of popular obloquy or persecution — any fear of giving offence even to those whom I should be most unwilling to offend — or, in short, any personal consideration whatever, of a temporal character, to stand in the way of my exertions in such a cause, if the state of things which I have been deprecating, should continue, while any, the most painful sacrifices, — the most per- severing efforts, on my part, remained untried. THE END. R. CLAY, PRINTER, BREAD-STREET-HILL.