^ 
 
f 
 
THE INFLUENCE OF CHRISTIANITY. 
 
 REPORT 
 
 OP A 
 
 PUBLIC DISCUSSION 
 
 WHICH TOOK PLACE 
 
 AT OIiDHAM, 
 
 ON THE EVENINGS OF TUESDAY AND WEDNESDAY. 
 
 Febudaky 19th and 20th, 1839, 
 
 BETWEEN 
 
 THE REV. J. BARKER, 
 
 Of tlie Methodist New Connexion, Mo^sley, 
 AND 
 
 MR. LLOYD JONES, 
 
 Of Manchester, Social Missionary, 
 
 ^^ 
 THE INFLUENCE OF CHRISTIANITY. 
 
 REVISED BY THE DISPUTANTS. 
 
 MANCHESTER: 
 
 PRINTED BY CAVE AND SEVER, POOL FOLD. 
 
 1839, 
 
REPORT, 
 
 A PUBLIC Discussion took place in Braddock's Large 
 Room, Terrace-buildings, Oldham, on the Evenings of 
 Tuesday and Wednesday, February 19th and 20th, 1839, 
 between the Rev. J. Barker, of Mossley, Minister in the 
 Methodist New Connexion, and Mr. Lloyd Jones, of 
 ^Manchester, Lecturer on the Social Doctrines of ~SIy. 
 Robert Owen, on the influence of Christianity. 
 
 The discussion originated in an article on Socialism, 
 published in No. 5, vol. II, of Mr. Barker's Evangelical 
 Reformer. This article gave rise to a con'espondence 
 between Mr. Barker and the Social District Board in 
 INIanchester. This Board appointed Mr. Lloyd Jones, 
 their accredited missionaiy, to meet Mr. Barker upon 
 the questions as hereafter stated. As the correspon- 
 dence has been already published by both parties, and 
 may be seen either in Mr. Barker's Evangelical Refonner, 
 or in the New Moral World, it will be unnecessary 
 further to allude to it. Suffice it to say, that prelimina- 
 
ries were at length settled, and the Discussion agreed to 
 be held as above. 
 
 Admission to the room was by ticket, price sixpence 
 each, for each evening, of which an equal number was 
 taken by the Committees of the respective Disputants. 
 All the tickets issued were eagerly bought up, and there 
 was a demand for many more tickets than could be 
 supplied. 
 
 First Day, Tuesday, February \9th. 
 
 The Discussion commenced a few minutes after seven 
 o'clock, at which time the room was densely crowded. 
 The Disputants were placed at each end of a large table 
 upon the platform, where also sat the Chairmen and thej, 
 Umpire. 
 
 Mr. Halliwell first presented himself to the au- 
 dience, and said — I will begin the business by stating 
 the terms on which our friends Mr. Barker and Mr. Jones 
 meet this evening. The question, as you would see by 
 the printed handbills, is confined within very narrow 
 limits, and is to the following effect : — 
 
 " First, Whether Christianity be the cause of all the crime and 
 misery in our country ; and secondly, Whether Christianity be 
 not the cause of good wherever it operates, and good of every kind." 
 
 Mr. Barker undertakes to prove that Christianity is not 
 the cause of the 'misery and crime that abound in this 
 country ; that the tendency of Christianity is to pro- 
 duce only good ; that, wherever it operates it produce* 
 good, and good of every kind. 
 
 " Condition — That in the debate nothing shall be taken for 
 Christianity but the system of Jesus Christ, as laid down iu 
 the New Testament." 
 
5 
 
 This is the matter for discussion; and let it be 
 understood to this meeting, that if any dispute shall 
 arise between Mr. Connard and myself, who have 
 been appointed chainnen respectively for the parties, a 
 decision will be given by the umpire, Mr. Halliday, which 
 will be final. So that if Mr. Connard and myself 
 disagree, as to what may or may not be a point of 
 order, we shall not have to submit it to the meet- 
 ing, as on ordinary occasions, but to the umpire, who 
 will decide the matter ; and with his decision both we 
 and the meeting must be content. With regard to the 
 speakers, I have no doubt the language of each will be 
 kind and courteous, and such as to excite no ill feeling 
 in each other's mind. I am sure that I can vouch for 
 Mr. Barker, that he will conduct his speeches in such a 
 way as to give no offence to any one ; and I am sure 
 Lloyd Jones wdll do the same. ' With regard to time, 
 for the first two speeches, half an hour each will be 
 allowed ; and for the second, third, and fourth speeches, 
 on each side, twenty minutes each. It will be under- 
 stood by the meeting that it has been thought advisable, — 
 and I think it is exceedingly advisable,— that there should 
 be no approbation shown,— no disapprobation shown. 
 Therefore, the meeting will oblige the chairmen particu- 
 larly if they will hear the speeches in silence ; if they 
 will judge on the subject matter of those speeches 
 calmly, and will decide on the matter of those speeches 
 wisely. ^ That is all we require. I hope we shall not 
 have to interfere in any way to suppress ajjplause. I hope 
 the observations I have made will induce you to listen 
 attentively, and to show no signs of applause or dis- 
 approbation I am sure Mr. Barker's friends will concur 
 in the propriety of my remarks,— at least I hope so. 
 With regard to Lloyd Jones's friends, they are not in 
 the habit of giving either applause or disapprobation ; 
 therefore, if any expression of feeling take place, it will 
 at once be said that it arises from "the friends of Mr. 
 Barker. Hence, as a point of honour, you see you are 
 bound not to show the slightest approbation or disappro- 
 bation. The first speaker to-night is Lloyd Jones; the 
 a2 
 
6 
 
 first speaker to -moiTow night will be Mr. Barker. Unless 
 Mr. Connard has some observations to make to you, 
 previous to the commencement of the debate, I will now 
 call on Lloyd Jones to commence the discussion. 
 
 Mr. Connard : — I agree in all that Mr. Halliwell has 
 said ; and I am fully confident that if you pay strict 
 attention to what he has said, the discussion will prove 
 both interesting and beneficial to all. 
 
 Mr. JONES:— 
 
 Ladies and Gentlemen, — I would observe, before we 
 commence the proceedings of this evening, in addition 
 to what has been said by Mr. Halliwell, that it is of 
 the utmost importance to every man and woman in 
 this room, that they should pay strict attention to 
 what may be advanced upon both sides of this ques- 
 tion ; and unless due order be preserved, by each person 
 in the room, it will be utterly impossible to pay that 
 attention to the subject which* its importance demands. 
 The chairman has read to you, from the placards, the 
 subject matter for consideration : I have only to say, that 
 I am proud the day has arrived in which we can come 
 boldly and freely before the public, and canvass every 
 subject and every question that has any bearing, directly 
 or indirectly, upon human happiness ; and do it without 
 any degree of fear, as to our own personal safety. I am 
 well pleased that the day has gone by when personal injury 
 might be apprehended. It is only by according to each 
 other perfect freedom of opinion, and perfect liberty to 
 express such opinion, — it is only by granting to each 
 other advantages and liberties of this kind, that the 
 human family can ever arrive at such satisfactory arrange- 
 ments as are calculated to secure to them peace and 
 happiness. I hold no prejudice in common with the 
 generality of this meeting, or with the generality of 
 society. I come before you to speak what I consider 
 truths of the highest impcrrtance. As I before stated, 
 holding no prejudice in common with you, I expect 
 no very kindly feeling from you for the truths which 
 I sliall speak to you. Founded as your opinions are 
 
^upon a false conception of what human nature really is, 
 1 know it is utterly impossible for you, when such opi- 
 nions are questioned, to feel comfortable, or to extend 
 that feeling of charity to the individual who questions 
 those opinions, which it is necessary you should extend. 
 It is only from a deep conviction that you are most 
 lamentably astray relative to the real nature of your- 
 selves, that I come here in o})position to the estab- 
 lished opinions, fully prepared to meet whatever may 
 be offered in opposition to me. 
 
 It has been announced in the placard, and by jNIr. Bar- 
 kefs chairman, that the first point to be discussed is, — 
 Whether Christianity has produced all the misery and 
 crime in the country ? Now, my friends, I agreed to the 
 insertion of this proposition in the placard, solely, because 
 I could not get jNIr. Barker to public discussion on any 
 other conditions. I never made a statement of that kind"; 
 no person belonging to the society to which I belong 
 ever made a statement of that kind. The statement 
 only existed in the imagination of Mr. Barker : and as 
 he has a disposition to combat such statement, I have no 
 objection that he should do so, for half an liour, if he 
 thinks proper. But I have every objection to meet him 
 upon the subject of a proposition, which I believe to 
 be absurd and false. I have now to call on Mr. Barker 
 to settle this part of the matter with me before we pro- 
 ceed any further. I did not say that Christianity had 
 produced all the evils in the world ; but I do say that it 
 has produced a gieat portion of those evils, a great por- 
 tion of the sufferings and miseries which the human race 
 has gone through for huudreds of years. I am, tlierefore, 
 quite ready to meet him on the second proposition, and 
 •to contest it inch by inch ; but the first is but a ])hantom 
 of his own imagination. Mr. Barker alleges tiiis state- 
 ment to have been made by our writers : I deny the fact, 
 and defy him to prove it to be true. When the challenge 
 .was first given, Mr. Barker stated that Mr. Haslam had said 
 •%so in his " Necessity of a Change." I deny it. It is 
 not true that Christianity has produced all the evils in the 
 country; and no man in our society ever said so. If 
 
8 
 
 Mr. Barker can establish that, he will establisli a propo- 
 sition which never originated in the mind of any of our 
 society. I therefore put myself in this position ; that if 
 the first proposition be a falsehood, it is a falsehood 
 imagined by Mr. Barker, and not affirmed by us. The 
 second proposition is a truth, and upon it I am prepared 
 to meet Mr. Barker. \ 
 
 Mr. BARKER :— 
 
 Mr. Chairman, — I am somewhat surprised at the 
 course pursued by my opponent on the present occa- 
 sion. I expected that the question, as read over by 
 the chairman, would have been the subject for discus- 
 sion this evening ; I had not the least anticipation that 
 any question would be started here, as to whether cer- 
 tain charges had been made by the Socialist writers 
 or not. That point was understood to be entirely settled 
 and set aside, at the interview which I and my h'iends 
 had with Lloyd Jones and his friends. Those charges 
 were talked about at that interview, and Lloyd Jones 
 contended that they had never been made either by him 
 or by their writers, but he also added, " I make them 
 now, and I will prove them." And it was on the faith of 
 this declaration, and on the faith of his written engage- 
 ment to discuss the questions in the order in which they 
 have been read to you from the hand-bill, that I agi'eed 
 to meet him. What course to pursue, therefore, on the 
 present occasion, I can scarce tell. If it had been so 
 aiTanged, I should not have had any objection to dis- 
 cuss the second proposition. Of course, my expectation 
 was, that it would be discussed thoroughly in its turn, 
 and that the whole subject would be properly gone 
 through. But as Lloyd Jones sets aside the first ques- 
 tion, the only course that remains for me to pursue at 
 present is, to hear what Lloyd Jones has to say respect- 
 ing the miseries and crimes which he says Christianity 
 has produced : he says that it has not produced all the 
 crime and misery in the country, but that it has produced 
 a great deal. I will therefore wait to hear what those 
 miseries and crimes are, which, in his opinion, Christianity 
 has produced ; and after that I will reply. 
 
9 
 
 Mr. JONES :- 
 
 Friends, — We now come to the second proposition 
 to be discussed, — the amount of (ftime produced by 
 Christianity ; and now I am fully prepared to meet Mr. 
 Barker on this subject. One of the conditions of our 
 agreement was, "that nothing shall be taken for Chris- 
 tianity but the system of Christ, as laid down in the 
 New Testament." I am not about to take any thing else. 
 I will take from it those passages in which your mistake, 
 and the mistake of the early Christians, relative to the con- 
 stitution of human nature, is made manifest ; and from 
 those passages, I will trace the influence of that mistake, 
 from the first day of the establishment of this religion down 
 to the present moment. I have often stated to you, that 
 your convictions relative to any proposition were involun- 
 tary, — that they necessarily followed, when a sufl5ciency of 
 evidence was presented to your mind to cause conviction. 
 The New Testament pre-supposes the opposite, because 
 it is continually offering rewards for a certain state of 
 mind, or for the entertainment of certain convictions ; 
 and threatening punishment for an opposite stale of 
 mind, or convictions of an opposite description. I will 
 read to you, from the New Testament, those passa- 
 ges that I consider illustrative of that mistake ; and 
 then, as I before promised you, I will, by detailing to 
 you the conduct of those who acted under the influence 
 of such belief, prove to you that the entertainment oi 
 such opinions, or the entertainment of that mistake, 
 which is the groundwork of the Christian religion, has 
 produced in practice results of the most lamentable des- 
 cription. I will first refer to Acts xiii. 6 : and the 
 reason why I quote this passage particularly, is this, that 
 Beza, a reformed writer, wrote a book in favour of per- 
 secution, and to give countenance and authority to that 
 work, he quoted the passage I am about to read to you. 
 I will begin at the fourth verse : — " So they, being sent 
 forth of the Holy Ghost, departed into Seleucia; and 
 from hence they sailed to Cyprus. And when they were 
 at Salamis, they preached the word of God in ihe syna- 
 gogues of the Jews ; and they had also John to their 
 
10 
 
 minister. And when they had gone through the isle into 
 Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a 
 Jew, whose name "was Barjesus, which was with the 
 deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; 
 who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear 
 the word of God. But Ely mas, the sorcerer, (for so is 
 his name by inteq) relation ) withstood them, seeking to 
 turn away the deputy from the faith." 
 
 Now, I wish you to pay particular attention to this pas- 
 sage. This Ely mas, the sorcerer, obstructed Barnabas and 
 Saul, and sought to turn away the deputy from the faith. 
 " Then Saul, (who is also called Paul,) filled with the Holy 
 Ghq^t, set his eyes upon him, and said, full of all subtilty 
 and mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all 
 righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right 
 ways of the Lord ? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord 
 is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun 
 for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist 
 and a darkness ; and he went about seeking some to lead 
 him by the hand." The next passage I shall refer to, is 
 Galatians, i. 8, 9: — *' But though we, or an angel from 
 heaven, preach any other Gospel to you than that which 
 we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we 
 said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any 
 other Gospel to you than that ye have received, let him 
 be accursed." I will next refer you to Galatians v. 12 : — " I 
 would they were even cut off which trouble you." I will 
 next refer to Titus iii. 1 6 :— " A man that is an heretic, 
 after the first and second admonition, reject." Now, my 
 friends, what I have read to you here are the words of 
 the disciples of Christ. I maintain that they breathe a 
 spirit of uncharitableness ; that when they tell you to 
 reject a man because he is a heretic, it is because he 
 entertains a diflferent state of mind, or different convic- 
 tions from those which you entertain ; I maintain that 
 the rejection of a brother, in consequence of his being 
 heterodox and heretical in his opinions, is uncharitable- 
 ness of the worst description. But these passages, after 
 all, are from the writings of the disciples of Christ : 
 now I will read you, from his own mouth, words con fir- 
 
11 
 
 matory of those which I have read from the writings of 
 his disciples. This, I hope, will be authority sufficient 
 for every true and good Christian. 
 
 I will now refer to the 16th chapter of Mark, and 
 will begin at the 14th verse: — "Afterwai'd he appeared 
 to the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them 
 with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they 
 believed not them which had seen him after he was 
 risen. And he said unto them. Go ye unto all the world 
 and preach the Gospel to every creature." Now this 
 is the verse to which I wish you to pay particular 
 attention ; it is the verse which pre-supposes the vo- 
 luntary nature of belief. After desiring them to go 
 forth and preach the Gospel, he says, — ** He that be- 
 lieveth and is ba])tized shall be saved ; but he that 
 believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall 
 follow them that believe in my name : they shall cast 
 out devils ; they shall speak with new tongues." 
 
 I have now read to you passages from the writings of the 
 disciples of Christ, which prove that they countenanced 
 |>ersecution in this world ; and I have read to you, to crown 
 all, a passage from the mouth of Christ himself, which 
 positively asserts that if you do not believe certain 
 dogmas, — it does not say a single word about evidence, 
 about the necessity of inquiry — here is no neutral ground 
 to stand on — the positive and frightful assertion is made, 
 — " Go and preach these things : they that believe and 
 are baptized shall be saved, and they that believe not 
 shall be damned" The disciples here countenanced, as 
 I told you before, persecution in this world ; and Christ 
 has expressly declared that he will persecute and punish 
 in the next. It is, therefore, my duty and business to- 
 night, taking these passages as the groundwork of the 
 history of Christian persecution, to follow- the Christians, 
 from the first century of their establishment in this world, 
 dowTii to the present, and prove to you that the entertain- 
 ment of this mistake relative to the nature of belief, has 
 caused more crime, misery, and sorrow in the world, 
 than almost all other causes put together. I will then 
 go back again to the first century ; and here, according 
 
12 
 
 to St. Paul, we have them quarrelling, in the very first 
 century that Christianity had an existence ; for he says, 
 in the first chapter of his first Epistle to the Corinthians, 
 and the 11 th and 12th verses, — " For it hath been de- 
 clared unto me of you, my brethren, by them who are of 
 the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among 
 you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am 
 of Paul; and I of Apollos ; and I of Cephas; and I of 
 Christ." I will next refer you to the 3rd chapter and 
 the 3rd verse : — " For ye are yet carnal : for whereas there 
 is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye 
 not carnal, and walk as men ?" Here then we find, that 
 at the commencement of Christianity, there was, in the 
 Christian church, as it existed in Corinth, according to 
 the express declaration of St. Paul, divisions, strife, and 
 €nvyings. 
 
 I will then take up the Ecclesiastical history in 
 the second century, and prove to you, b}- the proceed- 
 ings of these men, who called themselves Christians, — 
 acting, mind you, all along, on these false principles as 
 to the nature of belief, — that the very moment they got 
 the least political power into their hands, that very mo- 
 ment they commenced, in the most violent and inhuman 
 manner, to force the consciences of their fellow men. In 
 the second century, a violent contention arose among the 
 Christians, as to the particular day on which Easter was 
 to be observed ; some would have it kept on one day, and 
 some were for observing it on another. And the very 
 moment that this contention arose, the very moment 
 that a difference of opinion took place between them, 
 that veiy moment they began to inflict pains and penal- 
 ties upon each other; for Victor, the Roman prelate of 
 that time, excommunicated all the Eastern churches. 
 Thus, between the churches of the East and the West, 
 there was a mere difference of opinion as to the observance 
 of a particular day ; and in consequence of that, what 
 does Victor, the Roman prelate, do ? He excommuni- 
 cates all the Eastern churches ; that is, he curses them, 
 and denounces all communication with them. Thus 
 you see, my friends, the religious feeling, existing as it 
 
13 
 
 did in his mind, grounded on a mistake relative to human 
 nature, caused him to tear asunder the bonds which unite 
 society together. As Shakespeare truly remarks — 
 
 ** One touoh of Nature makes the whole world kin." 
 
 But, while the whole family of man should have lived 
 and acted in the bonds of brotherhood, this Roman pre- 
 late, in consequence of a difference of opinion, cuts off 
 one half of the world from all sympathy with and feeling 
 for their fellow-men. Thus, where nature had tied and 
 bound the hearts of men together, religion has stepped 
 in and severed that tie. It may be objected by my op- 
 ponent, that it was not Christianity that did this, that it 
 was not a true intei-jiretation of the Scriptures. I have 
 nothing to do with what any man may call Christianity; 
 there are so many diflerences in the world as to what 
 Christianity is, that I cannot allow any man to set him- 
 self up here as an infallible judge of what it is. I take 
 the Testament, as it existed and operated upon the minds 
 of the men to whom it was given. I am about to speak 
 of its effect on them, and to trace that effect from that day 
 down to the present. 
 
 Here, then, we find I have merely to give you this 
 to work out my first statement : T have only to give 
 you those particular deeds of oppression, in illustration 
 of what I first laid down. I find, then, that during 
 the reigns of Commodus, Severus, and Claudius, they 
 excommunicated some for difference of opinion rela- 
 tive to the nature of Christ; but at that time, they had 
 not in their power any means of persecuting ; they could 
 not take a man then and burn him ; they could not im- 
 prison him for a particular opinion, because thay them- 
 selves were not then tolerated in the Roman empire. All 
 they could do was to hurl their anathemas upon his 
 head; and we may take those curses, those anathemas, as 
 indicative of the feelings which animated the men. I 
 have only to say, that if they did not, at that time, bum 
 men for their opinions, it was only because they had not 
 the power, not because they lacked the inclination. 
 
 B 
 
u 
 
 Mr. BARKER:— lia ,sim ai ti MtB^i .svoi £v 
 Mr. Ohairman, Friends,— Though I consider myself 
 l)erfectly prepared to give a satisfactory inteqjretation to 
 the passages which have been quoted, and to show that 
 not one of them inculcates or sanctions the doctiine of 
 persecution; I think it may not be the best way to 
 notice these separate isolated passages in the first instance. 
 In arguing upon the tendency of a system, it appears to 
 me to be the most rational mode of proceeding, to take 
 the system generally, the grand scope and drift, — the 
 leading injunctions, examples, and principles which that 
 system contains, and consider the probable influence of 
 the whole. If we pursue this course on the present occa- 
 sion, I have no doubt but the subject will be made 
 perfectly plain to every intelligent person present, and 
 that it will be manifest to all, that the doctrine and prac- 
 tice of persecution are as opposite to the doctrine, and 
 spirit of Christianit}'', as darkness is to light. 
 
 With respect to the doctrine of men's responsibility for 
 their faith, it is no part of our business this evening to 
 inquire whether it be true or false. That may be a 
 subject for consideration hereafter, but at present, so far 
 as that matter is concerned, my only business will be to 
 show that the doctrine, that a man is responsible for his 
 belief, as it is taught in the New Testament, is not 
 adapted to inspire the spirit of persecution, or in any 
 way to prompt those who believe it, to acts of cruelty 
 towards their fellow men. 
 
 With respect to the doctrine of persecution, no indivi- 
 dual that looks at the New Testament, and gives it a 
 patient and candid reading through, can entertain the 
 i^ea for a moment, that that book could ever make men 
 persecutors. The first thing that strikes the reader, is 
 the example of Jesus Christ, which is as far removed 
 from the character of a bigot or a persecutor, as the ten- 
 derness of an angel is from the ferocity of a savage. 
 The examples and instructions of the Apostles next pre- 
 sent themselves ; but there is nothing like persecution 
 ^^i11. There are no threats of imprisonment, of fines, 
 of despoiling of goods, or of death. All is meekness 
 
15 
 
 and love. Paul, it is true, shall strike a sorcerer blind, 
 when contending against him, and seeking to turn away 
 his hearers from the faith ; to prove to that sorcerer, and 
 10 those around, that his magic is imjDotent, and founded 
 in delusion, but that the power which he possesses is 
 from God, and that he can not only work miracles upon 
 men generally, but even upon a sorcerer, who, according 
 to the custom of the times, was attempting to demon- 
 strate the falsehood of the Apostle's pretensions by the 
 efforts of his own deceitful art. But nothing like unkind- 
 ness seems to have entered into the spirit of either Christ 
 or his Apostles. The judgment that fell upon Ely mas 
 was from the hand of God, — it was but "for a season ;" — 
 it was intended for his good, to cause him to cease from 
 perverting the right ways of the Lord ; and it was espe- 
 cially intended and adapted to convince, by the powerful 
 evidence of a miracle, those whom the sorcerer sought to 
 deceive, and so bring them to receive " the truth as it is 
 in Jesus." It had that effect; for when the deputy saw 
 what was done, he believed; and it contributed, along 
 with other singular miracles, to benefit the population of 
 all the surrounding country.* 
 
 With respectto another passage, " He that belie veth shall 
 be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned," my 
 opponent says that not a word is here said about inquiry 
 or evidence. I would observe, that something is said 
 here both respecting inquiry, and respecting evidence. The 
 first part of the passage is, " Go ye out into all the world, 
 aad preach the Gospel unto every creature." If there was 
 not inquiry on the part of those who received the Gospel, 
 there was information on the part of those who preached 
 it. Men were not called on to believe in something they 
 knew not what; the whole Gospel was unfolded to them. 
 Christ did, besides, inculcate inquiry. He called on men, 
 " Take heed how ye hear,'* " Search the Scriptures ;" he 
 wished them to examine and weigh all he said. With 
 respect to evidence, how strange it was that Lloyd Jones 
 should stumble upon the passage, "In my name shall 
 they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues," f 
 &c. and yet say that there was nothing said about evidence. 
 
 * Acts xiii. 12, t Mark xri. 16, to the end. 
 
16 
 
 " Lo, 1 am with you always," says Christ, working mi- 
 racles by their means, as evidence of the truth of what 
 they preached. Wherever the Gospel was preached, that 
 evidence accompanied it ; the Gospel came not in word 
 only, but in demonstration of the Spirit and with power. 
 It was on this account that they who heard it were called 
 upon to give the more earnest heed to the things which they 
 heard, because the Gospel was spoken unto them by the 
 Lord himself, and was confirmed unto them by those 
 that heard him, God also bearing them witness, both by 
 signs and wonders, and with divers miracles and gifts of 
 the Holy Ghost according to his own will. Heb. ii. 1 — 4. 
 The facts and principles of the Gospel were plainly 
 stated ; the truth was adapted to the capacities of men ; 
 and the evidence also was just of that kind which was 
 suited to that imperfect state of intelligence which then 
 prevailed in the world. They were not called upon to 
 believe against evidence, nor were they required to be- 
 lieve without it, but simply to receive those instructions 
 and convictions which nothing but vicious dispositions 
 and evil practices could hinder them from receiving. 
 
 With respect to persecution, I know not of one single 
 passage in the whole of the New Testament that incul- 
 cates any such doctrine as that a man shall be persecuted 
 by his fellow men, because he does not believe as his 
 fellow men may dictate. On the contrary, the Scriptures 
 teach us that every man is to judge for himself, (Luke 
 xii. 57,) and no man is to dictate to another. Thess. 
 V. 2L Rom. xiv. 2, 13—22. Matt. vii. 1—5. The 
 Apostles themselves declare, that they "were not lords 
 over men's faith, but helpers of their joy." 2 Cor i. 24, 
 They never attempted to compel men to believe, or 
 threatened to punish them if they did not believe. They 
 stated the truth, they produced their evidence, and by 
 the manifestation of the truth, commended themselves to 
 every man's conscience in the sight of God. " If you 
 will hear," said they, "you are happy; if you will not 
 hear, the j udg-ment of God awaits you : to your own 
 master you must stand or fall." 
 
 Still it has been said by my opponent, that Chris- 
 
17 
 
 tianity has inspired the spirit of persecution, and tliat 
 those who have professed the religion of Christ, have not 
 failed to persecute from tlie first century to the present 
 time. The Gospel could not inspire that spirit. If it 
 could have inspired it in the minds of any, it would 
 have inspired it in the minds of the Christian friends on 
 this platform. The Gospel is now more generally read 
 amongst us, more thoroughly understood, and more cor- 
 dially believed by people generally, and it is recei\?ed 
 with fewer mixtures of superstitious, pagan, and infidel 
 practices and principles, than at any fonner time since 
 its first promulgation ; yet where are the horrors of per- 
 secution ? It does not astonish me, that, when the 
 Gospel was received into minds not accustomed to ynve 
 truth, — minds that had been habituated from their youth 
 to dictate opinions to others, and to persecute such as 
 rejected them, — it does not astonish me that when it was 
 at first received by princes, who had already been accus- 
 tomed to enact and enforce laws against all strange gods, 
 and all strange worship, punishing all innovations in 
 religion with death, — we cannot wonder, I say, that w^hen 
 men like these first became favourable to Christianity, they 
 should sometimes persecute. But the Gospel was not 
 the cause of their persecutions ; the Gospel forbad per- 
 secution. They brought the spirit of persecution into 
 the church with them, they did not find it in Christianity. 
 On the other hand, the reason why they did not perse- 
 cute more was, that the Gospel in some degree counter- 
 acted the tendency of the persecuting systems to which 
 they had formerly been subject, and which still, in some 
 measure, remained within them. 
 
 I would now make an observation upon the passage 
 (juoted by my opponent from Titus iii. 9 : — " An heretic 
 after the first and second admonition reject.'' This direc- 
 tion simply means, " let him be no longer considered a 
 member oi" your society." There is no unkindness here : 
 on the contrary, it was a kindness both to the man and 
 to the church. By being admonished and disowned, 
 many heretics were probably brought to consider theii- 
 ways, and to renounce their errors and their wicked 
 B 2 
 
IS 
 
 practices ; and it had a tendency to induce others to ex- 
 amine and to inquire into the matter, and to guard against 
 the infection of the errors and evil practices of the 
 hei'etics. For the heresies that are condemned in the 
 New Testament, consisted more in had conduct than 
 in bad doctrine ; they were new and false systems, 
 quite opposite in doctrine and morals to the system of 
 Christ, and were therefore inimical to the interests of the 
 heretics themselves, and to the interests of the church at 
 lai'ge. See Titus iii. 9, 10. Gal. i. 6, 7, 8, 9. Gal. v. 
 1, 4, 7, and forward. Rom. xvi. 17, 18. 
 
 As a further answer to what Lloyd J ones says about 
 the tendency of Christianity to cause persecution, I 
 would refer to a statement made by him in his opening 
 speech. *' I am glad," said he, *' that the day of per- 
 secution is gone by, and that we can stand forth to 
 advocate whatever sentiments we believe conducive to 
 man's happiness, without fear." The day of persecution 
 is in a great measure gone by, and we may thank 
 Christianity for it. But the day of persecution had not 
 gone by some years ago : two or three hundred years 
 ago, persecution raged in our country with gi'eat violence. 
 But at that time the Gospel was little known ; copies of 
 the Bible were scarcely any where to be found ; there 
 were not more than one or two in a whole parish, or a 
 city, or very few more ; and there were very few people, 
 only one here and there, that had the power to read the 
 Scriptures. But now the day of persecution is gone by, 
 and yet the Gospel is now read by almost every child ; it 
 is preached from ten thousand pulpits ; it is the subject 
 of daily conversation; it is understood, believed, and 
 practised more than in any former age of the church ; 
 and the consequence is, as my opponent has stated, " the 
 day of persecution has gone by." 
 
 The two countries where there is the least persecution 
 are America and England, and yet these are the two coun- 
 tries where the New Testament is more read, more fully 
 understood, and more obeyed, than in any other coun- 
 tries in the world. The day of persecution has not gone 
 by in Spain. What is the reason ? The Gospel is little 
 
19 
 
 known there. It has not gone by in Italy. What is 
 the reason ? The Gospel is there proscribed. It h&s 
 not gone by in some more distant parts of the earth, as 
 China, Hindostan, and Africa. How is that ? The 
 Gospel has not gone thither. Wherever the Gospel is 
 made known and obeyed, persecution wanes; men's 
 hearts imbibe a better spirit. They leam of Him who, 
 when his disciples proposed to call down fire from heaven 
 upon certain persons that would not suffer them to go 
 through their village, rebuked them, and said, " Ye 
 know not what manner of spirit ye are of ; for the Son of 
 man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save 
 them." Luke ix. 51 — 56. 
 
 Jesus Christ gives his followers no power over other 
 men's consciences; he declares that all are brethren. " The 
 Gentiles," said he, *Miave their princes, and those that 
 exercise authority over them ; but it shall not be so among 
 you : whosoever will be gi'eatest among you; let him be 
 your minister ; and whosoever will be chief among you, 
 let him be the servant of all. He that will rise highest, 
 let him stoop to the lowest ofBces of kindness, and become 
 the servant and the helper of his brethren." Mat. xx. 20 
 —28. Matt, xxiii. 1—12. Luke ix. 46. Luke xxii. 
 24 — 26. From all this it is as clear as possible, that 
 Christ gives us no power over any man's conscience ; and 
 he assures us, that no such power shall be exercised among 
 us, on pain of condemnation. " For whosoever exalteth 
 himself shall be abased ; but he that humbleth himself 
 shall be exalted." Matt, xxiii. 12. Luke xii, 42—48. 
 Well might the Apostle exclaim, when certain professors 
 interfered with their brethren — "Why then dost thou 
 judge thy brethren r* or why dost thou set at nought thy 
 brother ? For we shall all sland before the judgment seat 
 of Christ." Rom. ii. 1. and Rom. xiv. 10. 
 
 Who are they that are most forward to persecute at the 
 present time ? Are they those who are most forward in 
 hearing and reading the Gospel of Christ ? No. Are 
 not they the great persecutors, who abhor the Gospel, 
 and who wish to keep it from being read, and to shut up 
 the Scrii)tures in a strange language ? Persecuting bigots 
 
20 
 
 dread tbe Gospel ; it shakes them to the very soul. The 
 man who sits on a throne based on tlie prostration of the 
 consciences of his fellow-men, trembles if the New Testa- 
 ment comes into his country. For he knows that it 
 opens men's eyes, that it teaches them their rights, and 
 makes them wise, independent, and free. 
 
 The sect called Quakers attend more, perhaps, to the 
 spirit and jDrecepts of the Gospel, than any other denomi- 
 nation of Christians ; and who are the persecutors among 
 them ? No such thing as persecution has any place in 
 their system. So far from persecuting, they live every 
 man Iree, without attempting to limit the freedom of 
 others. It is true, if a man discredit their society by 
 misconduct, they admonish him over and over again, and 
 if he pei-sist in his evil ways, they think it right to say, 
 '' He is no more a member of ours;" and very properly 
 so. But they never go further ; and is this persecution ? 
 (See Clai'kson's Portraiture of Quakerism; their Book 
 of Extracts, &c.) 
 
 I may further say, that the doctrine of responsibility 
 for our belief, as taught in the Gospel, has no tendency 
 whatever to make men persecutors. I believe that my 
 brother is answerable to God for his faith, but what like- 
 lihood is there that that belief should make me persecute 
 him ? Jusi the contrary. The only influence such a sen- 
 timent could have on me, would be to induce me to use 
 him kindly, and then leave him to God. We are expressly 
 commanded to seek the good of others, but to seek it only 
 by acts of kindness. The injunctions of the Gospel are 
 that we should preach, and teach, and let our light shine 
 in our good works, and use kindness and affectionate en- 
 treaty towards all, but nothing farther. The Apostle 
 says, " The servant of the Lord must not strive ; but 
 be gentle and charitable unto all men, apt to teach, 
 jmtient, in meekness instructing those that oppose him ; 
 if God, peradventure, will give them repentance to the 
 acknowledging of the tmth." 2 Tim. ii. 24, 25. Tha 
 charity which the Christian writers inculcate is a charity 
 *' that suffereth long, and is kind ; that envieth not; that 
 raunteth not itself, is not puffed up, dotli not behave 
 
21 
 
 itself unseemly, seeketh not her own interest or giatifica- 
 tion, is never provoked, thinketh no evil, rejoiceth not in 
 iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, 
 believethall things,hopeth all things, endnreth all things."* 
 It is even willing to die for the sake of another, but will 
 never do evil that good may come. 
 
 What sort of characters those individuals were, res- 
 pecting whose proceedings my opponent read his long 
 and frightful extracts, I can scarcely tell ; but of this I 
 am certain, that they were persons who knew little of the 
 New Testament, or who had little regard for its teach- 
 ings. They disputed about the time of observing Easter, 
 it seems; but what has this to do with Christianity? 
 Where, in the New Testament, is the time of observing 
 Easter mentioned ? The nature of the dispute proves to 
 me, that the contending parties were no true Christians. 
 We are told by Lloyd Jones that those people had no 
 power to imprison, or put to death, but that if they had 
 had the power, they would have used it for those ends. 
 Then this is another proof that they were no Christians ; 
 Christianity forbids all violence. Christianity require* 
 us to do unto others as we would that they should do 
 unto us, and teaches us, that instead of using force, w« 
 should meekly and kindly instruct all men ; and this is 
 the course true Christians pursue. Look at a few of 
 those individuals who have received the Christian doctrine 
 into their hearts. William Penn believed the Gospel, 
 and he also held the doctrine that a man is accountable to 
 God for his belief. But did he persecute ? He bore 
 himself the utmost indignities that his enemies could 
 inflict upon him ; he submitted to violence, and to fines 
 and imprisonments, time after time ; but he never lifted 
 up a hand to persecute others. He founded the state of 
 Pennsylvania ; but what persecution was there there ? 
 Christianity was never tried on such a general scale in 
 any other state ; and what was the result ? With the 
 exception of one imperfect law, there was not a shadow 
 of persecution in the whole code by which that state 
 was goreiTied. Christianity was believed and practised 
 by Howard, by Boyle, by Newton, by Locke, by Wil- 
 
 * 1 Cor. xiii. throughout. 
 
22 
 
 berforce, by Clarkson, by Sturge ; were these men per- 
 secutors ? They believed that men were answerable for 
 their faith, not to them, but to God ; and when they had 
 advised and instructed men, they left them to God. 
 Had they believed that other men were answerable to 
 them for their belief, it might have operated as an in- 
 ducement to persecute; but Christianity had taught them 
 that men were not answerable to them, nor to any other 
 man on earth ; and they had, therefore, no inducement to 
 persecution left. 
 
 A belief in the Scripture doctrine that a man is 
 answerable to God for his faith, is calculated to have a 
 happy rather than an unhappy effect upon the mind. 
 We believe that men are responsible to God for theit 
 faith ; and what is the conclusion which we draw from 
 this doctrine ? That it is our duty to teach them, to 
 extend to them all the means of knowledge we are able 
 to offer, to instruct, to give evidence, to use great gen- 
 tleness, to endeavour in an affectionate way to remove their 
 prejudices, and by all kind endeavoui-s to strive to win 
 them over to the truth, and not by violence drive them 
 farther into error. 
 
 The doctrine of responsibility for belief, so far as it 
 is taught in the passage — " He that believeth and is bap- 
 tized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall b« 
 condemned," is an article that is taught by every man. 
 It is taught by the Socialists as nmch as it is taught in 
 the passage just quoted. The Social institutions send 
 out missionaries ; and what is their commission ? "Go 
 into every town and preach the doctrine of Socialism to 
 all the inUkbitants ; those that believe them and enter the 
 community shall be happy; those who reject them will 
 remain wretched." This is as much as Christ said, in 
 the passage just quoted. There is no responsibility of 
 man to his fellow man here, or in the whole New Testa- 
 ment ; the responsibility that the Gospel does teach, is of 
 a kind that cannot cause persecution, but rather cause it 
 to cease. 
 
 Mr. JONES:— -^" *^ v 
 
 Friends, — Mr. Barker, in his discoiu'se, did nWffeny 
 
23 
 
 that the passages which I read to you existed in the 
 Christian Scriptures ; but he does deny that if the doc- 
 trines of persecution be drawn from them, they are justly 
 inteipreted. I have only to say, that if Mr. Barker be 
 inclined to draw from them doctrines of charity, I am 
 only sorry that Mr. Barker did not live a thousand years 
 ago. Enlightened Christians then existed, and then 
 persecuted, because they thought that those passages 
 sanctioned it. He tells me there are passages of an 
 opposite description in the Bible. I do not say there 
 are not : it is not my business to reconcile discrepancies 
 that may exist in the Testaments, not at all. I give you 
 the passages as I read them, and I prove to you that 
 Christians persecuted, that Christian men drew from 
 these passages the doctrine of persecution, and quoted 
 them to sanction such proceedings. No individual, he 
 says, that looks at the Testament with a proper eye, can 
 draw from it doctrines of this kind. I tell you that 
 honest and sincere Christians did look at it with such eyes 
 and understandings as they had, and did draw from it 
 doctrines of persecution. I have not to deal with what 
 Mr. Barker supposes may be drawn from these passages ; 
 I take them in their literal sense, and give you the con- 
 clusions that have been drawn from them. 
 
 Mr. Barker next alluded to the passage about the 
 striking blind of Ely mas, the sorcerer. Perhaps Paul 
 acted very right ; perhaps it was the power of God work- 
 ing through Paul to produce conviction in the mind 
 of the sorcerer; but I say it would have been much 
 better to have enlightened the man's understanding 
 than to strike blind his eyes. He has made one 
 slight mistake; and I do wish that Mr. Bai'ker would 
 pay particular attention to my language, that there 
 may be no dispute about the words made use of. I did 
 not state, as Mr. Barker has told you, that the day of 
 persecution is gone by: I said that the day when i)er- 
 sonal injury was to be appehended was gone by ; that was 
 my statement ; but that the day of persecution has gone 
 by I deny, and I will prove it. Those passages, Mr. 
 Barker told you, where it is said " let a man be rejected," 
 ** let him be accursed," on account of his opinions, 
 
24 
 
 eould not mean persecution, nothing of the kind ; they 
 merely meant that you should not have such a man 
 in your society. This is certainly very charitable 
 and very proper ; if you wish to attain a certain 
 end, it would be foolish to encumber yourselves with him. 
 But I am sorry to say that the Pope does not intei-pret 
 them as Mr. Barker does ; and perhaps I shall be able 
 to prove, before I have done, Mr. Barker himself does 
 not alwa3's put that construction on those texts. They 
 did persecute, he acknowledges, when fresh from Pagan 
 superstitions; but where the Gospel is known, he says, 
 they do not persecute ; they persecute in Spain and 
 Italy, where it is not known; but in England and Ame- 
 rica, where it is known, they do not persecute. I have 
 only to say that, while the English Parliament wa« 
 sitting to deliberate whether they should grant to the 
 Roman Catholics their right to sit in the national coun- 
 cils or not, the Italian Pontiff had agreed to protect the 
 Protestant worship in Rome ; and in America, with all 
 its Christian light, not many years since, a nunnery was 
 burned to the ground; and yet here they have the advan- 
 tage of the Bible. 
 
 But the Quakers, Mr. Barker has told you, do not 
 persecute. Have I not driven Christianity into a nar- 
 row corner, when they are the only sect that he can 
 bring forward to exemplify the truth of his principles— a 
 sect, let me tell you, that cares the least about the Bible, 
 and makes the least to do about it, of any ? He says 
 Penn did not persecute : I know he did not. Howard 
 did not persecute : I know he did not ; and I know there 
 liave been kind hearts, in every age, and in every country, 
 whom no doctrines, however bad, were capable of rousing 
 to .such a degree as to cause them to persecute their fellow- 
 men. I also know that there are temperaments and dis- 
 positions, amongst whom if a spark of wi'ong doctrine 
 fell, they were immediately roused into violent and 
 wicked action. Had all men's conduct been like that of 
 Penn, I should have had never a word to say againat 
 these principles, except in so far as they had operated as 
 an hinderance to their doing a greater amount of good. 
 But, I say, there are dispositions whom no doctrines 
 
25 
 
 could rouse into anger, and Penn's seems to have been 
 one of them. But there were others existing at the same 
 time with Penn, refonned Christians in America, who 
 earned out persecution to a most alarming extent ; and 
 that I will prove. 
 
 I will now go on from where I broke off when my 
 time was last up. I told you that during the reigns of 
 Commodus-SeveiTis, and Claudius, the Christians ex- 
 communicated one another, not on account of any dispute 
 respecting the time when Easter was to be observed, but 
 from a difference of opinion relative to the nature of Jesus 
 Christ. Eusebius tells us that Theodorit, Sabellius, 
 Paulus Samosatenus, Bishop of Antioch, and many 
 others, were excommunicated because they held some 
 heterodox doctrines relative to Jesus Christ. However, 
 as I before remarked to you, then they could do nothing 
 worse than excommunicate one another; that was all they 
 had it in their power to do. Constantine at last succeeded 
 to the throne ; and he became a convert to the Christian 
 religion. Now, I shall trace their proceedings from the 
 time that they attained to power, from the period when 
 they got the power to persecute into their own hands ; 
 and I shall prove that they exercised that power to a 
 most frightful extent. 
 
 When Const^intine became converted to the Christian 
 religion, there were many differences of opinion existing 
 among them, and those differences of opmion he found 
 it impossible to allay. We find that one of his first acts 
 after his conversion was to hinder the celebration of the 
 Pagan worship : thus, in the very first instance, denying 
 to his fellow-men — to the men who held the religion that 
 he had just renounced, the power of exercising their right 
 of worshipping according to the dictates of their con- 
 science, and depriving them, in consequence of their 
 belief, of the power to hold any situation or office in the 
 state. I will read to you the passage ; it is from Eusebius's 
 Life of Constantine : — "As to the heathens, soon after 
 the settlement of the whole empire under his government, 
 he sent into all the provinces Christian presidents, for- 
 bidding them, and all other officers of superior dignity, 
 c 
 
26 
 
 to sacrifice, and confining to such of them as were Clms- 
 tians, the honour due to their chai"acters and stations ; 
 thereby endeavouring to support the kingdom of Christ, 
 which is not of this world, by motives purely worldly, 
 namely, the prospect of temporal honours. And not- 
 withstanding the excellent law he had before published, 
 that every one should have free exercise of his own reli- 
 gion, and worship such gods as they thought proper, he 
 soon after prohibited the old religion, namely, the worship 
 of idols in cities and in the country, commanding that 
 no statues of the gods should be erected, nor any sacrifices 
 offered upon their altars." 
 
 Here, then, we have them, from the first moment 
 that they received power into their hands, exercising that 
 power for depriving their fellow-citizens of their rights 
 as citizens, because they differed from them in their 
 belief. But the first gTand difference that took place 
 among the Christians was caused by a man named Arius. 
 He was presbyter to Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria; 
 and he conceived some notion relative to the nature of 
 Christ different from that entertained by his bishop, 
 Alexander. In consequence of this, a general council 
 took place between the whole of them. I will read you 
 the passage wherein the nature of this difference is stated, 
 that you may see what beautiful things we, who call our- 
 selves rational creatures, sometimes differ about. Alex- 
 ander's doctrine, that is, the bishop's, as Arius represents 
 it, in his letter to E usebius of Nicodemus, was this : — 
 " God is always, and the Son always : the same time 
 the Father, the same time the Son. The Son co-exists 
 with God unbegottenly, being ever begotten, being un- 
 begottenly begotten. That God was not before the Son, 
 no, not in conception, or the least point of time, he 
 being ever God, ever a Son : for the Son is out of God 
 himself." That is Alexander's doctrine. Now here is 
 Arius's, in opposition to it : — " That there was a time 
 when there was no Son of God, and that he who before 
 was not, afterwards existed ; being made, whenever he 
 was made, just as any man w^hatever ; and that therefore 
 he was of a mutable nature, and equally receptive of vice 
 and virtue." 
 
?7 
 
 Now, my friends, this was the entire gTound-work of 
 their quarrel, which completely jsplit up the Christiaa 
 church into two grand divisions. I will read another 
 passage, from Dr. Chandler's History of Persecutions, 
 edited by Atmore, both Christian men ; for I am not giving 
 you any infidel account of those transactions ; I am con- 
 demning Christians out of the mouths of Christians them- 
 selves : — " The bishops o( each side had already interested 
 the people in their quaiTel, and heated them into such 
 a rage, that they attacked and fought ivith, icounded 
 and destroyed each other, and acted ivith such madness 
 as to commit the greatest impieties for the sake of 
 Orthodoxy ; and arrived to that pitch of insolence as to 
 offer great imlignities to the imperial images. The old 
 controversy about the time of celebrating Easter being 
 now revived, added fuel to the flames, and rendered their 
 animosities too furious to be appeased." In consequence 
 of this we find Constantine, immediately after he arrived 
 at the imperial dignity, was forced to call a council, wliich 
 was the first general council in the Christian church, to 
 decide whether Arius or Alexander was right, and to take 
 some decisive steps to put a stop to the proceedings I have 
 read to you ; for you hear that they had attacked, fought, 
 wounded, and destroyed each other. He then called the 
 Council of Nice, in Bithynia, in the year 325, at which 
 there were no less than 318 bishops, a vast number of 
 presbyters, deacons, acolythists, and so forth. Now, one 
 would naturally suppose, that when this number of 
 Christian men had met together, there would have been 
 something like Christian charity existing among them, 
 and that, according to JNIr. Barker's opinion of the matter, 
 they would have gone moderately and mildly to work, 
 and have endeavoured to set each other right. Well, we 
 shall see. 
 
 Theodorit says — " Those of the Arian party were subtle 
 
 and crafty, and like shelves under water, concealed their 
 
 wickedness" This, mind you, was when they were met 
 
 in council. " Amongst the orthodox party," he add*;, 
 
 "" some were of a quarrelling, malicious temper, and ac- 
 
 ^'Hbused several of the bishops ; and they presented their 
 
28 
 
 accusatory libels to the emperor." Socrates says that 
 '' very many of them, *the major part of them, accused 
 one another; and that many of them,' the day before the 
 emperor came to the council, had delivered in to him 
 libels of accusations, or petitions against their enemies." 
 Sozomen goes farther, and tells us, " that as it usually 
 comes to pass, many of the priests came together, that 
 they might contend earnestly about their own affairs, 
 thinking they had now a fit opportunity to redress their 
 giievances, and that every one presented a libel to the 
 emperor, of the matter of which he accused others, enu- 
 merating his particular grievances. And that this hap- 
 pened almost every day." Gelasius Cyzicenus's account 
 of them is, " that when all the bishops were gathered 
 together, according to custom, there happened many de- 
 bates and contentions amongst the bishops, each one 
 having matters of accusation against the other. Upon 
 this they gave in libels of accusation to the emperor, who 
 received them ; and when he saw the quaiTels of such 
 bishops with one another, he endeavoured to conceal the 
 wicked attempts of such bishops from the knowledge of 
 those without doors." Sabinus also says — " They were 
 generally a set of very ignorant men, and destitute of 
 knowledge and learning." Here, then, we have them, at 
 the very foundation, quaiTelling about a metaphysical 
 piece of nonsense of the most absurd description. Here 
 we have them, with all the charity of ministers of God 
 and of the established religion, because Arius differed 
 from his bishoj), hunting him like a wild beast, and 
 bringing accusations against one another. I will now 
 read you the edict of Constantine against Arius and his 
 followers, as given in an old edition of the "Ancient 
 Ecclesiastical History," translated by Dr. Hanmer, and 
 published in 15S5: — 
 
 " Constantinus the puissant, the mighty and noble Emperor 
 unto the bishops, pastors, and people wheresoever. Inasmuch as 
 Ai'ius traceth the steps of detestable and impious persons: it is 
 requisite that he be partaker with them of the self same infamy 
 and reproach. For as Porphj-rius, the swoin adversary and deadly 
 foe of divine service, who lately published lewd commentaries, 
 in the confutation and defiance of Christian religion, was rewarded 
 
29 
 
 according unto hia desert, and so recompensed that within the 
 compass of these few years he was not only grieved tvith great 
 reproach, and blemished with the shopneful spot of infamy, hut 
 also his impious and blasphemous works, perished and utterly 
 trere abolished ; even so now it seemed good unto us to call Ariiis 
 and his complices, the wicked brood of Porphyrius, that look 
 whose manners they have imitated, they may enjoy also the 
 privilege of their name. Moreover we thought good, that if 
 there can he found extant any work or book compiled by Arius, 
 the same should be burned to ashes, so that not only his damna- 
 ble doctrine may thereby be wholly rooted out : but also that 
 no relique thereof may remain unto posterity. This also we 
 straightly command and charge, that if any man be found to 
 hide or conceal any book made by Anus, and not immediately 
 bring forth the said book, and deliver it up to be burned, that 
 the said oflender for so doing, shall die the death. For as 
 soon as he is taken, our pleasure is that his head he stricken off' 
 from his shoulders. God keep you in his tuition." 
 
 So finishes this denunciation. 
 
 Mr. BARKER:— 
 
 j\Iy Friends, — There is one part of the foregoing speech 
 in which I perfectly agree, it is the testimony given res- 
 pecting the character of those persecutors who met in the 
 council of Nice, namely, that they were generally a set 
 of ignorant men, and destitute of true knowledge and 
 learning. Ignorant generally, I should imagine, but 
 above all things ignorant of the Gospel of Christ ; the 
 system which all true Christians love, and preach, and 
 practise. That testimony respecthig the ignorance of 
 those contentious and quarrelsome men, exactly agrees 
 with what the Apostle said respecting the contentious and 
 quarrelsome members of the church at Corinth : — " And 
 I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual 
 but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. For 
 ye are yet carnal ; for whereas there are among you envy- 
 ing, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and 
 walk as men?" I Cor. iii. 1—3. They walked not as 
 Christians, but as carnal, unregenerated men. Full 
 grown Christians would have acted differently : they 
 would have walked in all meekness and charity, peace- 
 fully instructing those who might be in error, if by any 
 means they might recover them from the snare of the 
 c 2 
 
m 
 
 Devil, who were led captive by him at his will. It was 
 not because they were Christians that they did wrong, 
 but because they were not sufficiently Christians, — be- 
 cause they were only babes in Christ. 
 
 There was also a contradiction in the last speech. 
 Those persecutors were " enlightened, honest, and sincere 
 Christians," my opponent said, but he never attempted to 
 prove them such. His historians say that they were quar- 
 relsome and violent, and a set of ignorant and unlearned 
 men ; and the whole case proves that the statement of the 
 historiansis thetrueone. " Honest and sincere Christians'.'' 
 It seems, then, that Lloyd Jones can read the hearts of 
 men for sixteen hundred years back. Why, this man is 
 fit to be the judge of the universe. " Honest and sincere 
 Christians" they could not be, or they would have trod 
 in the steps of their master, and attended to his instruc- 
 tions, who forbad his disciples to persecute, and who told 
 them, when they were disposed to persecute, according 
 to those old systems which Christianity came to sweep 
 away, — " Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." 
 
 "My kingdom is not of this world," said Christ; and 
 he would not allow his people to use any of this world's 
 weapons. " If I were an earthly king," said he, "my 
 servants should fight ; but I am simply the ruler of men's 
 minds, the teacher of truth, and truth and charity are the 
 only weapons I allow." We, therefore, his followers, 
 teach the truth ; if men believe it, we rejoice, and are 
 happy ; if they receive it not, though they persecute us, 
 and even take and hang us, we can only weep and pray 
 over them. This is the example left us by our Master. 
 They persecuted him, but he made no resistance ; and when 
 they hung him on a cross, the severest expression that 
 fell from his lips was — " Father, forgive them, they know 
 not what they do." Luke xxiii. 34. Stephen was a 
 Christian, both "enlightened and sincere ;" and he exem- 
 plified the same spirit as his Master. " They stoned Ste- 
 phen, calling on the name of the Lord ; and he kneeled 
 down, and cried with a loud voice. Lord, lay not this 
 sin to their charge. And when he had said this he fell 
 asleep." Acts viii. 59, 60. Ten thousand thousand Chris- 
 
31 
 
 tians have gone to the cross with similar composure, and 
 died without uttering a reviling word. They have wept 
 for those who were about to destroy them ; and it was the 
 meekness with which they suifered, the freedom with 
 whicli they shed their blood, in order to gain admis- 
 sion for the truth into men's hearts, that made even 
 infidels and idolaters say — " Truly, these men are the 
 sons of the living God." Their blood, so meekly and 
 charitably shed for the salvation of their enemies, was 
 the seed of the church. Such was the influence of their 
 disinterestedness, their unearthly courage, and their 
 spirit of self-sacrifice for the good of their fellow men, 
 over the beholders, that it overwhelmed the hearts of 
 thousands, and brought them over to the cause of truth. 
 
 Not so with those persecutors of which we have heard 
 from Lloyd Jones. They were ignorant of the Gospel, 
 as Lloyd Jones's historian tells us, or they could never 
 have written such stuff as we have heard read over. If 
 ihey had understood,^ Gospel, it would have taught 
 them better than'to dispute about such follies. I love 
 the Gospel ; I wish Lloyd Jones would read out of the 
 Gospel. We should then hear a severe sentence against 
 useless disputes and strifes about words. We should hear 
 the ministers of Christ exhorted to follow after righteous- 
 ness, charity, ])eace, and things by which we might 
 edify one another; to avoid foolish and unlearned questions, 
 knowing that they engender strife, and increase unto more 
 ungodhness. We should find them cautioned not to give 
 heed to false and endless genealogies, and commanded to 
 refuse profane and old wives' fables, and to exercise them- 
 selves rather unto godliness. See 1 Tim. i. 4, 5. and iv. 
 7, 8. and vi. 4, 20. 2 Tim. ii. 14, 16, 23. Tit. i. 14. 
 and iii. 9. &c. If we read the New Testament, we shall 
 be convinced that those men were unacquainted with the 
 Gospel, or else did not regard it; or the Gospel would 
 have found them better employment. The Gospel would 
 have taught them, that the business of a Christian is ta 
 learn his Father's v.ill, and do it. It would have taught 
 them to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and to live 
 soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. 
 
32 
 
 It would have told them to remember the Good Samari- 
 tan, who pitied even the Jew in his distress that would 
 have called him a dog, — who parted with his oil and 
 wine, got off his own beast, and set the wounded man 
 thereon, took him to an inn, expended his money and 
 his time, and could not rest till he had seen hhn in a 
 fair way to be safe and happy. It would have told them 
 to remember the Good Samaritan, and bid them " Go 
 and do likewise." This is the doctrine of the Gospel ; 
 " As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all 
 men, especially to those who are of the household ol" 
 faith.'* Gal. vi. 10. " Pure religion before God and the 
 Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their 
 affliction, and to keep ourselves unspotted from the 
 world." James i. 27. " As you would that men should 
 do unto you, do ye even so unto them." If a man 
 smite us, to pray for him ; if we receive evil, to return 
 good ; never to revenge ourselves, but to suffer meekly ; 
 to love as brethren ; to be pitiful and courteous ; not ren- 
 dering evil for evil, or railing fof'^lftiiling, but contrariwise 
 blessing ; to commit our cause into the hands of Him 
 that judge th righteously ; never to be overcome of evil, 
 but to overcome evil with good. See Matt. v. 38 — 48. 
 Rom. xii. 1 — 21. 1 Pet. iii. 8 — 17. and all through the 
 New Testament. 
 
 With respect to Constantine, w^e are told by Lloyd 
 Jones that he persecuted. He acted then in accordance 
 with the spirit and laws of the Roman empire, at the 
 head of which he was placed. There never was an age 
 of which we have any account, when persecution was not 
 the law of the Roman empire. From the infancy of the 
 empire up to the time of Constantine, laws were regu- 
 larly enacted against all new religions, and officers were 
 appointed to see them enforced ; and when those officers 
 did not prove efficient, other officers, of a higher order, 
 were directed to see that those persecuting laws were put 
 in execution, and that a system of uniformity might be 
 secured. And they did enforce those laws. They threvr 
 down the temples erected to other gods; they hunted 
 and banished or destroyed the Jews i they persecuted the 
 
33 
 
 Christians beyond all bounds. Look how they suffered 
 under the emperors that preceded Constantino ; not less 
 than two millions of them put to death, simply for their 
 religion.* 
 
 Persecution, then, was the law of the Roman empire ; 
 the laws enjoining persecution were innumerable. Con- 
 stantine was brought up under those laws, he was taught 
 to regard them as right, and he was placed at the head of 
 the empire to execute them. He did execute them to 
 some extent, and in so doing he acted in accordance 
 with the spirit of the unchristian world. But mark you, 
 when Constantine became a Christian, as my opponent 
 admits, he passed a law forbidding persecution, and 
 gi*anting to all men liberty to worship according to their 
 own consciences. It was Christianity that taught him to 
 pass this law. The first law against persecution, the first 
 law that was ever passed in Rome for such an object, 
 was passed by the first emperor that professed to embrace 
 Christianity There was no other system in the world 
 but Christianity, that could have led him to ])ass such a 
 law. But it is said that he afterwards revoked this law : 
 it is not surprising ; he acted throughout just like a man 
 who had learned something of the Gospel, but who had 
 not learned it perfectly. I honour Constantine for the 
 good he did; I am very sony that he was not perfect. 
 T would not execrate him, because he happened not to be 
 a good scholar as soon as he got into Christ's school. It 
 would have been strange if he had unlearned all his 
 Pagan lessons at once. Considering his circumstances, he 
 did well ; I am only soiTy that he did not drink deeper 
 into the Christian spirit, that he might have stood at the 
 head of the empire, an example of all goodness and 
 excellence at once. 
 
 The charges, then, which Lloyd Jones has brought 
 against Christianity from the conduct of the men that 
 assembled at the Council of Nice, and the conduct of 
 Constantine, fall to the ground. They prove nothing 
 
 * SeeLi\'y, B. 9, No. 30, B. 25, No. 5, B. 39, No. 16; Valerius Maxlmus, 
 Book 4 ; Dion. Cassius, Book 42 and 54 ; Tacitus Annals, Book 2, No. 85 ; 
 See Jews' Letters to Voltaire. 
 
m 
 
 against Christianity whatever. The contentious and tri^ 
 fling members of the council were not Christians ; they 
 could not be ; Lloyd Jones cannot prove them to have 
 been Christians ; the character which he himself has 
 given of them proves that they were no such thing. And 
 as for Constantine, his whole case is in favour of Chris- 
 tianity. When he had become partially a Christian, he 
 passed the best laws that had ever been passed up to that 
 time, by any mere ruler of this world, since the world 
 began. Let this be remembered to his honour, and to 
 the honour of the New Religion. 
 
 No doubt there were many persons eager to get money, 
 and anxious to obtain power, clustering round Constan- 
 tine at the time he embraced Christianity, who would be 
 ready to do anything or to recommend anything to Con- 
 stantine that seemed likely to further their ends. These 
 might call themselves Christians, and they might be 
 persecutors ; but they were not Christians indeed, or they 
 would have been better minded. There might be states- 
 men around Constantine, imbued more with the spirit of 
 the old intolerant laws of the empire, than with the spirit 
 of Christianity, who would prompt him to persecute; but 
 the mass of Christians, the gTeat multitudes of Chris- 
 tians then living, and every generation of Christians up 
 to that time, used no violence.* Indeed they were against 
 the use of violence altogether ; and one charge that used 
 to be brought against them by their enemies was, that 
 they would not fight nor bear arms. The}'' were re- 
 proached with being enemies to the commonwealth, 
 because they refused either to bear arms, or enter into 
 government offices. This was the conduct of the better 
 kind of professing Christians from the first. 
 
 But if we should find a great many imperfections 
 among the Christians of those early times, we need not 
 wonder. They had not the best opportunities of obtain- 
 ing a knowledge of Christian principles. There were no 
 printing presses then, and very few copies of the New 
 Testament writings : so that the people generally had to 
 
 * We refer to Mosheim's and Milner's Church Histories, &c. in proof 
 
 of these statements. 
 
 cr yiiui;^ i; .iiyi: 
 
35 
 
 take their instruction from the lips of their teachers. 
 And many of their teachers had been bred up in infidelity 
 and idolatry, both of them systems of a persecuting 
 character. And when Christianity became fashionable, 
 many were forward to become teachers for gain, who were 
 not well instructed themselves. If, therefore, nolence 
 crept into the church, it was all natural ; but no blame 
 attaches to the Gospel. Ignorant or hj-pocritical men 
 brought persecution with them into the church ; they 
 did not find it there. They added it to the Gospel ; it 
 was no part of the Gospel itself. And the prevailing 
 ignorance of the times favoured this degeneracy. But 
 when at length the printing press unfolded the Gospel, 
 and allowed all men to read its teachings, and discover 
 its beauties, a mighty change was effected. Men learned 
 that persecution, as well as profligacy and lying, belonged 
 to the world, the flesh, and the devil ; and that kindness, 
 forbearance, charity, and meekness were the charac- 
 teristics of the true followei-s of Jesus Christ: and from 
 that day to this, as the knowledge of the Gospel has 
 been spread abroad, and as its principles have been 
 received and reduced to practice, the hon-ors and cruel- 
 ties of persecution have passed away. 
 
 Again : the unfairness of representing persecution as 
 originating in the doctrines of Christianity, is plain 
 enough from this ; that persecution has been practised, 
 and is practised still, by individuals utterly opposed to 
 Christianity. Diderot, one of the leading infidels of 
 France, rejected the Gospel altogether, and was a be- 
 liever in the Socialist doctrine that man is not at all 
 responsible either for his belief or conduct. He was the 
 father of Robert Owen's system, Lycurgus might be iu? 
 grandfather : and he taught that the man who murdered 
 another man was no more to blame than a whirlwind. 
 Yet this man, who did not believe that men were respon- 
 sible at all, still taught that men should be persecuted. 
 *' They who do wTong," said he, " ought to be punished, 
 not because they deserve it, but to furnish good circum- 
 stances or motives to others, to prevent them from doing 
 wrong." On this same principle the Socialists can pei'se- 
 
36 
 
 cute ; this has been done by them, and they are prepared 
 to carry out the principle to a famous extent, as soon as 
 they have the opportunity. I was reading a work of 
 Robert Owen'^ lately, in which he says that " the 
 Socialists must all learn the use of arms," must all be 
 soldiers, skilled in " the destructive art," taught the 
 manual exercise, the use of fire-arms, and made to 
 understand and practise the more complicated military 
 movements. This is to be the law of every community, 
 and the plan is to be caiTied to its farthest possible ex- 
 tent, says Robert Owen ; for though men are not respon- 
 sible for tbeir opinions and acts, yet so long as any part 
 of mankind shall be irrational, that is, so long as any 
 remain Christians, unconverted to infidelity and Social- 
 ism, it will be necessary, even for the most rational, to 
 be thus armed, that they may over-rule the actions of the 
 irrational beings, maintain the peace, and, if possible, 
 cure them of their errors. Robert Owen, then, if he 
 should live, is to be the last soldier in the universe ; the 
 Socialists are to be the last in amis — the la.st fighting men 
 on earth. As long as there are any men that reject their 
 system, they are to be in arms to overrule the Christians, 
 and, if possible, convert them. And these are the men 
 that would charge all persecution and violence on Chris- 
 tianity. " But," say the Socialists, '' we are to bear 
 arms and fight in self-defence and to keep the peace." 
 But all men justify their arming on this ground : all ami 
 in self-defence, if we are to believe them ; all nations go 
 to war for the sake of peace. This plea is no more than 
 any statesman can make use of. 
 
 D'Alembert was not a Christian, he was as thorough 
 an infidel as any Socialist ; yet he also was a persecutor. 
 He cursed and swore because the Censor of the press in 
 France refused to suppress the writings of his adversary. 
 " It is curious to see this chief of the infidel sect/' as 
 his biographer obsei-ves, " thus early attempting perse- 
 cution, and using the first opportunity of power which 
 he obtained, in violating those principles of liberty about 
 which he had made such outcries, by peeking to suppress 
 th« writings of his opponents." The Censor of the press 
 
37 
 
 wrote D'Alembert a kind and prudent answer; but he 
 tore the letter to pieces in a rage, and cursed its author. 
 Persecution, therefore, is not confined to professing 
 Christians, nor to those who hold the doctrine of the 
 voluntary nature of belief, and that men are responsible 
 for their opinions. It belongs to man ; it is a part of his 
 animal nature ; and until men are regenerated by the 
 power of Christian principle, they must be persecutors. • 
 
 As to those long stories read to us about deeds of per- 
 secution, they are to no purpose. We know them all. 
 They were Christian authors who told Lloyd Jones about 
 those things ; but did they charge them on the Gospel ? 
 We know better : they mentioned them to show how 
 imperfectly Christianity was understood and practised in 
 those times, and they took care to leave it on record, that 
 the persecutors were ignorant and unlearaed men. When 
 Christianity takes possession of all men's hearts, there 
 can be no persecution. It is taking hold of men's hearts 
 now ; its influence is spreading in all directions ; and 
 persecution is passing away. Thank God, Christianity 
 is not driven into a corner, and confined to the Quakers ; 
 it is professed, and in some measure practised by a hun- 
 dred sects in dififerent parts of the world ; and all of 
 them, in proportign as they respect the Gospel, are ever 
 opposed to persecution. It is said that the Quakers 
 regard the Scriptures least of any sect : it is just the 
 opposite, I believe. They read them daily ; and, with 
 the works of their early Friends, they are almost their 
 only books. No man in his days seemed mightier in 
 the Scriptures than George Fox, the founder of the 
 Quakers ; no man could so readily baffle his persecutors, 
 and show that the religion of Christ was a reHgion of 
 peace, and that it -did not sanction the use of violence. 
 Penn, who founded the state of Pennsylvania, and those 
 'Other Friends who went thither to cultivate the wilderness . 
 and/found an asylum from the rage of their enemies, 
 have proved, along with the better part of the Christian 
 world generally, that the principles of the Gospel are 
 principles of peace. 
 
 But Lloyd Jones says, " Your Pariiament" did so and 
 
 D 
 
38 
 
 sp ; it is no paTliameiit of ours, any more thau of Lloyd 
 Jones's; nor are we, or Cliristianity either, answerable 
 for its acts. " Your parliament !" Go to our leaders', 
 our monthly and quarterly meetings; our yearly assem- 
 blies and conferences, these are our parliaments ; and 
 see if you can find any persecuting laws in their acts : 
 or rather, go to the Gospel, that is our book, — see what 
 j)ersecuting laws are there. You will find no such thing. 
 Parliament passed the Catholic Emancipation Bill. 
 Why ? Because public feeling, generated in the hearts 
 of Christian people, forced it upon them. They have 
 passed many an Emancipation Bill; because Chris- 
 tianity had so impregnated and strengthened public 
 feeling in favour of liberal measures, that they were 
 compelled to yield to its force, and support the cause of 
 humanity. Out of respect to the feelings of a people m 
 some measure Christianized, parliament was obliged to 
 say — Let the o])pressed go free ; and the yoke of o})pres^ 
 sion and persecution was shivered and scattered, like 
 dust, to the winds. I maintain, then, and I have proved 
 it already, that the Gospel system is a system of IolYSj 
 of mercy, and of gentleness throughout. ,( nfiil; 
 
 Mr. JONES :— 
 
 My Friends, — Mr. Barker, at the cbmmencement of 
 his address, took an objection to my stating that the 
 })arties who persecuted in the early ages of the churches, 
 were honest and sincere Christians. I hold it as a general 
 rule, that never can admit of a question, that the majority 
 of all bodies of men are honest ; and I say again, that 
 where 318 bishops were met in council, with a multitude 
 of presbyters, deacons, and the like — I maintain that, 
 (3ren there, the majority of these men, were honest, but 
 were guided by evil principles. I say they may have 
 ])een illiterate or ignorant, but that does not destroy their 
 lienesty and good intentions He has drawn you a 
 picture of the meekness of Christians : even if you nail 
 them to the cross, they will say— "Father, forgive them, 
 they know not what they do." If you smite them, they 
 HJ]! not smite again ; if you curse them, they will not 
 
39 
 
 curse a^in. Why, my friends, I tLought the gentleman 
 was reading a chapter from the Arabian Nights' Enter- 
 tertainnients, or some fairy vision, some " midsummer 
 night's dream." Has it any existence in reality ? Every 
 one of you knows in his heart it is a hollow mockery ; 
 it is a libel, a mockery on your proceedings. Instead of 
 walking in meekness, and turning the other cheek to 
 those that smite you, — instead of refraining from cursing 
 and smiting, you are doing nothing but cursing and 
 smiting and injuring. Oh, but the Parliament — they 
 granted Catholic Emancipation, when the demand was 
 made by Christian people upon them ! Yes, when the 
 Roman Catholics, who were demanding entrance into the 
 offices of the state, took up a threatening position, the 
 Duke of Wellington granted it, more as a matter of ex- 
 pediency than of right, as he said himself. And let me 
 tell Mr. Barker, that when they did take up that stand, 
 the Methodists were petitioning against it : I saw, in the 
 porch of their chapel door in Oldham -street, a petition 
 against Catholic Emancipation. So that, instead of u 
 Christian people demanding the concession from a Chris- 
 tian legislature, they were encouraging them in persecu- 
 tion and o])pression, with all the Christian feeling in 
 their Christian bosoms. 
 
 But Constantine passed good laws: I know he did • 
 he passed good laws when he first became a Christian ; 
 but, you see, the longer he remained in the Christian 
 school, the worse he became. -I say he was a persecutor : 
 I beheve he was sincere, and I pity him equally with 
 Mr. Barker ; but I say it is right to condemn the false 
 principles that led him astray. I believe the majority of 
 persecutors, in every age, and every country, were honest 
 men, but ignorant, in relation to the princi})les on which 
 they grounded their persecutions. I will now proceed 
 with my history of pei-secution. Mr. Barker knows it 
 all : to be sure he does ; you all know it all ; aye, but I 
 will tell it you again. You do not know it all : you do 
 not know the foundation which your religion had ; you 
 do not know the manner in which it has passed over the 
 world, tbe desolations, heart-burnings, and miseries 
 
which it has caused. I do not attribute this, — I tell you 
 again, — to dishonesty on the part of the men who per- 
 secuted ; but I attribute it to their being guided by false 
 conceptions of human nature ; and that false conceptions 
 exist in the New Testament, I have proved by reading 
 the passage. We find, then, that Arius was banished 
 by a decree of the council of Nice ; but Arius had a 
 multitude of followers, who were as determined to sup- 
 port his opinions, as the orthodox party were to support 
 theirs ; and wherever they went, the one would not give 
 way to the other. 
 
 I will now read you Athanasius's account of the pro- 
 ceedings of Arius. He says, when exclaiming against 
 the cruelty of the Arians — " Whom have they not used 
 with the greatest indignity that they have been able to 
 lay hold of? Who hath ever fallen into their hands, 
 that they have had any spite against, whom they have not 
 so cruelly treated, as either to murder or to maim him ? 
 What place is there where they have not left the monu- 
 ments of their barbarity ?" "' The Arians also, in their 
 turn, used the orthodox with no greater moderation than 
 the orthodox had used them. The Vandals, who were 
 partly Pagans, and partly Arians, had seized on Spain 
 and Africa, and exercised innumerable cruelties on those 
 who were not of the same religion with themselves.'* 
 Mind you, I am not gi^^ng you the conduct of these 
 different religious bodies only as such conduct was the 
 result of a difference of opinion on religion ; it is their 
 religious history I am giving. " Trasimond, their gene- 
 ral in Spain, and Genseric, in Africa, used all possible 
 endeavours to propagate Arianism throughout all their 
 provinces And, the more effectually to accomplish this 
 design, they filled all places with slaught,er and blood, 
 hy the advice of the bishops of their party, burning 
 down churches, and putting the orthodox clergy to the 
 most grievous and unheard of tortures, to make them 
 discover the gold and silver of their churches, repeating 
 these kind of tortures several times, so that many actu- 
 ally died under them. Genseric seized on all the sacred 
 books he could find, that they might be deprived of the 
 
41 
 
 ineans of defending their opinions. By the counsel ot 
 kis bishops, he ordered that none but Avians should be 
 admitted to court, or employed in any offices about hi5 
 children, or so much as enjoy the benefit of a toleration. 
 Arraogestes, Masculou, and Saturus, three officers of his 
 court, were inhumanly tortured to make them embrace 
 Arianism ; and upon their refusal, they were stri])ped of 
 their honours and estates, and forced. to protract a miser- 
 able life in the utmost poverty and want." 
 
 I will now show you that the orthodox party, to whopi 
 Arius was opposed, hesitated not in inflicting the worst 
 injuries upon the Arians. Athanasius, who was the man 
 who before complained of the persecutions of the Arians, 
 ,.(and of whom I may here remark, that he was only an 
 enemy of persecution when it was directed against him - 
 self and his followers, but was a particular friend to it 
 when directed against those who stood opposed to him,) — 
 in his letter to Epictetus, bishop of Corinih, says—" I 
 wonder that your piety hath sufl'ered these thiui^s (i.e, 
 the heresies he had belbre mentioned), and that you did 
 not immediately put those heretics under restraint, and 
 propose the true faith unto them ; that if they would not 
 cease to contradict, they might be declai'ed heretics ; for 
 It is not to be endured that these things should be either 
 said or heard among Christians." And in anotl. -r pl^ce. 
 he says that " they ought to he had in universctl hatred 
 for opposing the truth;" and comforts himself [hut tho 
 Emperor, upon due information, would put a stop to 
 their wickedness, and that " they would not be lont;- 
 hved." The Emperor Julian, who ws^s first a Christian, 
 and afterwards became a Pagan, and who was one of the 
 best emperors that ever reigned in Rome, makes this 
 declaration when commenting upon the conduct of th(^ 
 Christians : he says that " he found, by experience, that 
 even beasts ai'e not so cruel to men as the generality of" 
 Christians were to one another." 
 
 [Before going any further, I would here make ono 
 
 remark on something which Mr. Barker said, which had 
 
 slipped my memory. He speaks of the principles ot 
 
 Diderot, of D'Alembert, and of Robert Owen recom-^ 
 
 D 2 
 
42 
 
 mending men to become soldiers. Now, we have nothing 
 to do with those individuals to-night ; we are speaking of 
 Christians to-night ; with their proceedings and the influ- 
 ence of their principles I have to deal, and from that 
 Mr. Barker shall not stir me. I am ready to meet him 
 on the other question at any other time, if he thinks 
 proper.] 
 
 Under the emperors Theodosius and Honorius, the 
 Donatists gave sad specimens of their cruelty in Africa 
 towards the orthodox, as St. Austin informs us. " They 
 seized on Maximianus, one of the African bishops, 
 as he was attending at the altar, beat him unmer- 
 cifully, and ran a sword into his body, leaving him 
 near dead." And a little after he adds that " it would be 
 tedious to recount the many honible things they mad© 
 the bishops and clergy suffer : some had their eyes put 
 out ; one bishop had his hands and tongue cut off; and 
 others were cruelly destroyed." Oh, but, according t/) 
 Mr Barker, this was all the result of the influence of 
 pagan principles, which then contaminated the Christi- 
 anity these parties had. Ah ! but pause a while, Mr. 
 Barker ; I will come lower down, and will show you that 
 your brethren in America were not the good, forgiving, 
 forbearing people you said they were, but that they made 
 laws which I will show you were a refinement in cruelty 
 on those of the Romans, and that they were more violent 
 persecutors. I will prove, also, that the founder of the 
 Methodist religion, John Wesley himself, was a perse- 
 cutor ; I will trace the progress of persecution down to 
 the present day, and prove that blood, blood, misery, 
 and oppression, mark it all the way down. St. Cyril, — 
 a saint, mark you, — who was Bishop of Alexandria, in 
 opposition to the prefect of that place, Orestes, took 
 from the Jews their synagogues, deprived them of that 
 toleration which the Roman governor was anxious to 
 give, banished them from the city, and encouraged the 
 mob to plunder their effects. This the prefect highly 
 resented ; he would not succumb to the authority of St. 
 Cyril. What was the result ? This good, /)70W5 bishop, 
 who put an end to toleration among the Jews, so anxious 
 was he that the true faith alone should prevail, that 
 
43 
 
 Orestes, the governor, was attacked by the Christians,, 
 beaten with sticks, and wounded ; and a woman, out of 
 envy of her superior skill in philosophy, was brutally 
 murdered. 
 
 I will here draw your attention to the state of feeling 
 which existed among the Christians. Suppose for a 
 moment, (and here I address myself particularly to the 
 women) that some woman, feeling strongly the truth of 
 the doctrines she had embraced, and possessing a power- 
 ful mind, sha '.Id go about the world teachhig those doc- 
 trines; who will say that for this she ought to be mur- 
 dered ? Yet we find that this was the case with Hypatia, 
 a follower of the Platonic system of philosophy ; and so 
 strongly were the Christians excited at her, that, as she 
 was returning home from a visit, one Peter, a clerg^'man, 
 with some other murderers, seized on her, dragged her 
 out of her chariot, and carried her to one of. the churches, 
 stripped her naked, scra])ed her to death with shells, 
 then tore her to pieces, and burnt her body to ashes. 
 These things, according to Socrates, took place in the 
 ember days ; he reproaches Christian men for being 
 guilty of such conduct, and says they brouglit gi'eat 
 infamy on the church by their violent proceedings. 
 
 Before the schism created by Arius had subsided, 
 another arose, to add fresh fuel to the fire : it was 
 called the heresy of Nestorius. His great crime was, 
 that he would not consent to call the Virgin Mary the 
 mother of God ; he considered it not right that she 
 should be called the mother of God ; and I will 
 read to you the proceedings that took place when that 
 dreadful crime was brought to light. " Mary was a 
 woman," he says, " therefore God could not be bom ol 
 her;" adding, ''I cannot call him God who once was 
 not above two or three months old;" and therefore he sub- 
 stituted another word in the room of it, calling her 
 " mother of Christ.'* This would not be tolerated ; it 
 was deemed a frightful here.sy; and immediately upon 
 this, a council was again called of the bishops, to decide 
 whether JMary was the mother of God or of Christ. 
 This was certainly a matter of vast importance ; bishops. 
 
44 
 
 presb}^ers, and deacons, called from all parts of tbrf 
 country, met at Ephesus, to settle whether Nestoriu* 
 was right or wrong. The decision of the council of 
 Ephesus was, that the bishops and clergymen who held 
 the opinion of Nestorius should be expelled from the 
 churches, and that the laymen should be excommuni- 
 cated. " This was the occasion of irreconcileable hatreds 
 amongst the bishops and people, who were so enraged 
 against each other, that there was no passing with any 
 safety from one province oi* city to another ; because 
 every one pursued his neighbour as his enemy ; and," 
 mind you, friends, " revenged themselves on one another, 
 under a pretence of ecclesiastical zeal." It is all very 
 well for Mr. Barker to say that this is a mistake, and 
 that we shall not find these things in the Gospel. But 
 I say the story of the Miraculous Conception is in the 
 Gospel ; and in the state of mind which existed at that 
 time, the world did not properly understand those things ; 
 and, not knowing the structure of the human mind, they 
 quarrelled, and persecution followed. Now, it is impos- 
 sible that persecution can flow from difference of convie- 
 tions, because we know how those convictions are formed. 
 Instead of striking a man blind, because he does not 
 view things in the same light as we do, it is our duty to 
 lay such evidence before his mind as may lead him to 
 change his views. This is the rational mode of doing 
 the thing, — a mode which the Gospel does not teach; I 
 had nothing to do with the discrepancies of the Gospel. 
 
 Mr. BARKER :— 
 
 It has been twice insinuated that there are discrepan- 
 cies in the New Testament ; there are no such things a^i 
 discrepancies in the Gospel from beginning to end. 
 That is not the subject for discussion this evening ; but 
 I am prepared to prove the statement at a proper time,: — 
 that the New Testament contains no discrepancies ; but 
 tlmt its teachings, from end to end, are all in perfect 
 agreement. From first to last, the doctrine of the Gos- 
 pel is — " Blessed are the lowly-minded, for theirs is the 
 kingdoni of heaven ;" " Blessed are the meek — (those 
 who will bear injuries and persecutions themselves, but 
 
45 
 
 not inflict them on others) — for they shall inherit eartli '" 
 " Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy ;" 
 ** Blessed are the ])eace makers, for they shall be called 
 the children of God. Love your enemies, bless them that 
 curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pra}' for 
 them that dispitefully use you and persecute you ; that 
 ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven : 
 for he maketh the sun to shine on the evil and on the 
 good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 
 Be ye, therefore, perfect and merciful, even as your 
 Father which is in heaven is merciful." Matt. v. 3, 5, 
 7, 9^ 44, &c. " Come unto me, all ye that labour, and 
 are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my 
 yoke upon you, and leani of me, for I am meek and 
 lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls." 
 Ma^t. xi. 28, &c. 
 
 I will take the liberty to read to you a few passages 
 more out of the New Testament ; I may take this liberty 
 the more readily, as Lloyd .Jones seems resolved to lay 
 the New Testament aside altogether : — " Let him that 
 stole, steal no more ; but rather let him labour, working 
 with his hands the thing that is good, that he may have 
 to give to him that needeth. Let all bitterness, and wrath, 
 and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away 
 from you, with all malice ; and be ye kind one to 
 another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as 
 God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Be ye there- 
 fore followers or imitators of God as dear children, and 
 walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath 
 given himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God 
 for a sweet smelling savour." Ephes. iv. '28 — 32, v. I, 2. 
 The advice which St. Paul gives to the bishops and 
 deacons is of the same character : they must be no 
 strikers, nor brawlers, nor wrathful, but sober, just, 
 meek, patient, ready to instruct, examples of righteous- 
 ness, love, charity, peace, using all kind and prudent 
 methods to open the understandings of men, to gain a 
 reception for the truth, and so to present evidences of 
 the truth to their minds, that rational conviction may 
 follow. This was the course enjoined on all the minister* 
 
46 
 
 of the church of Christ in the earliest times, and this 
 was the course which they pursued. 
 
 But the description which I gave in my former speech 
 of the character of true Christians, is a mere picture, 
 Lloyd Jones says. The picture is drawn from reality, 
 thanks be to God. There are thousands and tens of 
 thousands such Christians at the present time, and there 
 have been such Christians from the day that Christ first 
 founded a church upon earth to the present time. Chris- 
 tianity has not been inefficient : it has done wonders. It 
 has been like a light shining in a dark world : it could 
 not at once chase away all the mists and shadows of 
 error and persecuting doctrine, bat it rolled back and 
 chased away great portions of them. And it still shines ; 
 and whei-ever its bright beams fall, the darkness of error 
 and cruelty is quickly dispersed. Whatever darkness 
 has surrounded it, or seemed to mingle with it, belonged 
 to the corrupt and persecuting systems of the world ; 
 whatever light and happy influences have mingled with 
 the systems of the world, checking and destroying their 
 bloody and persecuting spirit, came from the Gospel 5 it 
 did not originate with the world. -^-"^*^* 
 
 But we are doing nothing at pesent, says Lloyd Jone*> 
 but cursing and smiting one another, and shedding one 
 another's blood : blood, blood, blood, is still the history 
 of our doings. Whatever world has Lloyd Jones come 
 from ? There is nothing answering his picture of blood 
 where I live. I hear no cursing Christians ; I see no 
 deeds of blood. I hear nothing but the accents of peace 
 and charity. I hear the voice of praise and prayer ; I 
 heard Lloyd Jones himself meekly and affectionately 
 prayed for this day, and this is the spirit that animates 
 the circle in which I move. They are pleading the 
 cause of the slaves, and labouring to sweep the sys- 
 tem of slavery from the earth : they are uniting to effect 
 a temperance reformation, and banish drunkenness from 
 human society. Chrhtians are not shedding blood : 
 true Christians cannot shed blood. Christians are em- 
 ployed in better things. They are building Sunday 
 schools, and extending the benefits of education to the 
 
47 
 
 rising generation; which those persons who reject tlie 
 Gospel, and renounce the doctrine of responsibility, never 
 did. They are spreading the blessings of education 
 through the whole earth, sending Bibles and other useful 
 books into all parts of the world, translating books and 
 tracts into one hundred and fifty different languages, 
 making new alphabets for uncultivated tribes, constructing 
 iiew languages, and endeavourhig to impart the truth 
 and blessings of salvation to all the inhabitants of the 
 earth. The Christians of Euf^land and America are at 
 this moment preparing to place a copy of the Sacred 
 Scriptures in the hands of every man on earth, and to 
 furuish along with it the means to enable every one to 
 read and understand it. We have our hospitals also, our 
 infirmaries, and our asylums for the blind, the dumb, 
 and the destitute, and public charities without number. 
 These all originated, not with persons who reject the 
 Gospel and the doctrine of responsibility, but with those 
 who believed the Gospel, and paid some regard to its 
 teach'nms. 
 
 , If the Scripture doctrine that men are responsible to 
 God, makes men persecutors, how is it that now, when 
 that doctrine is more believed in England than it ever 
 was before, there is less persecution ? What else could 
 check persecution but the Gospel of Christ ? Infidelity has 
 notchecked persecution; she never dared to come forward to 
 plead the cause of liberty, until Christianity had conquered 
 the foe, and driven persecution from the field. When 
 Christian martyrs had forced the government to relent, 
 and obliged them either to abolish their persecuting sta- 
 tutes, or allow them to fall into oblivion, infidelity comes 
 forward, joins its clamours with the shouts of victory, and 
 claims the laurels won by Christianity. Infidel philoso- 
 phers cannot aflbrd to plead the cause of truth or equity, 
 when there is any danger. They have but one short life 
 to live, according to their system, and they must make 
 the best of it. " Your modern Socrates will not drink 
 hemlock," said the great infidel Voltaire. *' If I had a 
 hundred thousand men," says he, " I know what I would 
 dp ; but as it is, I shall still work secretly." Like the 
 
48 
 
 Socialists of the present day, Voltaire must have a mighty 
 army at his disposal, before he dares declare his principles, 
 or attempt to carry into effect his schemes ; and until 
 then he must act the hypocrite, and carry on his war 
 against religion in disguise ; and so he did. Christians 
 come forth boldly, foaring no man. So strong was their 
 love of truth and freedom, that they were willing to shed 
 their blood in the cause; and in this way it is that Chris- 
 tianity, wherever it has prevailed, has so far destroyed the 
 spirit of persecution. 
 
 Some professors of Christianity petitioned against 
 Catholic Emancipation, we are told. I do not dispute it ; 
 but no enlightened and sincere Christians can plead for 
 persecution. The question is liot what Wesley, or Wes- 
 ley's followers, or any one else did ; but what men acting 
 on the principles of the Gospel have done. Find me a man 
 acting on the principles of Christianity as laid down 
 by Christ, that persecutes and kills his brethren, and 
 brings forward passages from Christ's own Gospel as 
 his waiTant for persecution and murder ; that would be 
 like proof. But there is no such man. And even if 
 there were some madman, that pretented he had Christ's 
 authority for persecuting and killing his fellow men, it 
 would be no proof that the Gospel engendered a warlike 
 and persecuting spirit. 
 
 But the Gospel has been in the world nearly two thousand 
 years, it is said, and has not rid the world of persecution yet. 
 Let it be granted, and what then ? Christianity is not the 
 cause of all the evil which it does not cure. All Christian 
 sects are imperfect 3 but it is not the Gospel that cause* 
 their imperfections. Infidelity has been in the world 
 more than two thousand years ; but infidels are not yet 
 free from crime ; they have not learned to do without 
 persecution and war. But thanks be to God, our cause 
 eau do without such cruel arts, and make its way in the 
 world too. And it is gaining gi'ound daily ; and as it 
 unfolds its principles, and extends its influence, the hide- 
 ous phantoms of war and infidelity, with their cruel passion* 
 and savage deeds, pass away. We come forth irom dark- 
 ness and disorder into a world of light and harmony. 
 
4d 
 
 'We Wathe a purer air ; we come nearer and nearer to 
 the spirit of Christ; and in proportion as we advance in 
 "Christian knowledge, and acquire more perfectly the 
 Christian character, we study more and more to promote 
 " peace on earth, and good-will to men." This is our 
 only system ; and this system cannot fail, wherever it 
 operates, to regenerate and hless mankind. 
 
 But even if we were to leave the Gospel itself out of 
 sight, and try the question by the character of profess- 
 ing Christians, the result would be in our favour. There 
 never were so many professing Christians in England as 
 at this time, and there never was so little persecution. 
 Professing Christians never read the Gospel so much as 
 now, and yet they never were so much opposed to all 
 violent and cruel proceedings. Confining our observa- 
 tions to professing XDhristians, we find no body of religi^ 
 t)us people now that lay it down as a principle, that they 
 may lawfully persecute their fellow men for differences of 
 opinion in religion. There is no such body. The 
 'Baptists, the Independents, the Old Methodists, the 
 New Methodists, the Primitive Methodists, and the 
 "Quakers, all disclaim the right to persecute. Even the 
 'Church of England, though in consequence of its con- 
 nexion with the State, it is almost out of our line, — yet 
 th^ Church of England itself, I believe, will not lay down 
 such a doctrine, that it ought to persecute. Even the 
 "Catholics of Ireland disclaim persecution. O'Connell, 
 their representative in the House of Commons, declares 
 that that man is no Christian, who would atffempt to 
 dictate to others in matters of faith. There are fifty or 
 sixty different sects, or more, in this country ; but not 
 one of them understands the Gospel to teach or sanction 
 persecution. 
 
 But there have been persons calling themselves Chris- 
 tians, that have understood the Gospel to sanction per- 
 secution, says Lloyd Jones. We know it, and we also 
 know that there have been persons who have understood 
 the Gospel to sanction other things also, which we now 
 know to be quite contrary to the Gospel. We do not 
 ^eny that men have misunderstood the meaning of pas* 
 
 E 
 
50 
 
 sages of the New Testament, and have argued upon 
 their wrong interpretation in such a way as to be led 
 into the wildest mistakes ; but the Gospel is not 
 answerable for these mistakes. I attribute the abuses 
 which are found in professing Christians to something 
 wrong in themselves. In some cases I attribute them 
 partly to the natural temperament of the men, as Lloyd 
 Jones says : they were persons naturally prone to per- 
 secute ; they lusted after power ; they wanted wealth ; 
 they courted priestly domination ; and they wrested the 
 Sacred Scriptures from their plain and natural meaning, 
 and put a false construction on them, to make them seem 
 to sanction their wicked schemes. 
 
 I am sorry that the attention of the meeting should be 
 confined to one single point so long : but it seems that 
 Lloyd Jones has but this one argument, and that he is 
 determined to go through with his catalogue of horrors, 
 and leave the New Testament out of view. But he has 
 proved nothing to his purpose ; he has not proved that 
 one of those persecutors was like Christ : he has not 
 proved that any of them, in their spirit and conduct, 
 were acting in accordance with the doctrines and precepts 
 of the Saviour. I cannot be too emphatical in stating, 
 that all the facts which have been quoted by my oppo- 
 nent, have nothing to do with the question. That indi- 
 viduals have persecuted, we know; and that persons 
 calling themselves Christians have persecuted, we know ; 
 but did those people persecute under the influence of the 
 doctrine and spirit of Christ ? Other individuals were 
 persecutors who were enemies to Christianity, but yet 
 made use of the Christian name ; and such impositions 
 cannot be prevented. Infidels persecute, and yet cloak 
 themselves under a Christian profession, and we cannot 
 hinder them from doing so. I recollect at the Wrexham 
 Teetotal Festival, a number of drunkards and publicans 
 got teetotal medals and ribbons, and w^nt reeling about 
 the streets in a state of dmnkenness, and calling them- 
 selves teetotallers, in order to destroy the cause of Teeto- 
 talism. We could not help that. So numbers of infidels 
 have ranged themselves under the Christian standard. 
 
51 
 
 and gone under the Christian name to shed hlood ; other 
 carnal and wicked men have done the same. The ene- 
 mies of Christianity take advantage of this, and cry, 
 " These are the effects of yom* Cliristianity." Wicked men 
 will do these things ; but none except bUnd, evil-disposed 
 persons can be deceived in this way. If a man wants to 
 rob Africa of her sons, and make a market for slaves in 
 the West Indies, can we hinder him from saying that 
 he is a Christian, and that he understands the New 
 Testament to sanction such practices ? Men will lie, do 
 what we will ; " wicked men and seducers will wax worse 
 and worse," in spite of the Gospel, " deceiving and being 
 deceived." But what have those things to do with the 
 Gospel ? The Gospel always inculcates meekness and 
 charity ; these are its effects wherever it operates ; and 
 any thing opposite to these is not of the Gospel, but 
 of the world. 
 
 But Julian charged the Christians with being cruel to 
 each other, Lloyd Jones says. How this should be I 
 cannot tell, unless Julian had learned to distinguish be- 
 tween false pretenders to Christianity and true Christians. 
 This is certain, Julian commended the Christians, and he 
 wrote a letter to Arsacius, the Pagan high priest of Ga- 
 latia, recommending him to imitate the Christfans, and to 
 urge upon the Pagans generally to imitate them also, 
 especially in their love for one another, and in their 
 charity for strangers. " See how the Galileans prosper," 
 says he ; " we cannot prosper as they do, unless we 
 imitate their virtues. While we neglect our own poor, 
 they both support their own and exercise charity to stran- 
 gers and enemies. The people observe this," added 
 Julian, "and are led, in consequence, to join themselves 
 to the Christians." Such was the character of Christians, 
 as given by their enemy, Julian. But Julian was one of 
 the best emperors that had ev-er lived up to his time, 
 Lloyd Jones says I do not dispute it: Julian was a 
 Christian for a length of time, and he could hardly live 
 under such a mild and benevolent system as Christianity, 
 without being better than those who lived under the perse- 
 eating systems of antiq^uity. Christianity, too, had im- 
 
52 
 
 proved tlie spirit of the age, and Julian felt the force oi 
 an improved public opinion that surrounded him. But 
 others of the Pagans were against persecution, my oppo- 
 nent says : it is very likely ; but they leai'ned their tolerat- 
 ing lessons from Christianity, the same quarter from which 
 Julian learned his lessons of mildness. Whatever either 
 the Pagans of old, oi* the infidels of modern times have 
 learned, either of charity or toleration, they have learned 
 from the Gospel. There was no other system from which 
 they could learn them. There was not a tolerating 
 government upon the earth before Christ came : and if it 
 had not been for the influence of the Gospel, there is no 
 reason to believe that there would have been a tolerating 
 government on the earth at the present time. Though 
 there were infidels in the world before this time, they 
 never opposed pei'seculion, or stood forth, at the risk of 
 theh' lives, to plead for liberty. Christianity it is that 
 has broken the rod of oppression, and given to men 
 liberty in every age. And all that the enemies of Chris- 
 tianity have done has. been, to avail themselves of the 
 liberty which it has given them, to charge it with being 
 a persecuting system. I am sorry that there should be 
 so much blindness in men : I pity the men that have 
 such a total perversion of mind ; I will not say wilful, 
 for I know that men may be awfully blind, and yet be 
 sincere. But I am sorry that men in this room, with 
 the Gospel on the table, (T wish it were in their hearts,) 
 should stand forward before a company of persons like 
 this, who know that the accusation is utterly false, and 
 charge the Gos])el with inspiring a spirit of persecution. 
 If Lloyd Jones will prove that there is no persecution any 
 where but where the Gospel prevails, or that there is the 
 most persecution where the Gospel prevails most, — if he 
 wUl prove that the men who understand the Gospel best, 
 who read it the oftenest, and who practise it the most, are 
 the worst persecutors, — if he will prove that in propor- 
 tion as Christianity spreads, persecuting laws are passed 
 by governments, and that persecuting deeds are multi- 
 plied, — if he will prove that where Christianity is un- 
 known, or forgotten, persecuting laws do not exist,— it-be- 
 
53 
 
 will pove these things, there will be some reason, some 
 argument in his speechfis. In his present course of pro- 
 ceeding there is nothing but utter declamation, bold> 
 reckless, unsupported assertion. Let him bring forward 
 some argument ; let him show that there was a connexion 
 between the bloody stories which he reads to us and the 
 Gospel as taught and practised by Jesus Christ ; that is, 
 let him try to'do it; he cannot do it, for there is no con- 
 nexion between them. It would be as easy to prove that 
 the sun is the cause of all the darkness in our coal-pits, 
 and that the moon is the cause of the dimness and gloomi- 
 ness under the shadow of the forest trees, as to prove that 
 Christianity is the cause of persecution, merely because 
 it has not had time to remove the evil entirely from the 
 earth. 
 
 When I consider the unwillingness of men to learn ; 
 the slow progress of all improvements ; the strength of 
 those principles of sensuality and carnality to which men 
 are subject ; the lust of power, of wealth, and of domi- 
 nion, which reign over the souls of unconverted men, — 
 when I consider these things, and look at the endless 
 obstacles with which the Gospel has had to contend, I am 
 amazed that it has wrought such wonders as it has : I am 
 astonished at the happy effects it has produced : I rejoice 
 that such a system ever came upon the earth, that its 
 good tidings ever sounded in our ears and gladdened our 
 hearts. And I am glad that it is still making its way 
 among men, and extending its regenerating influence 
 through the earth. So far from Christianity being driven 
 into a comer, as Lloyd Jones would insinuate, either in 
 England or America, it is filling the whole world. It is 
 Persecution that is driven into a corner : it is become a 
 storj' of past days. Lloyd Jones has to travel into what 
 we call the dark ages for a history of persecution, when 
 the Gospel was almost entirely unknown. But he will 
 bring u]) his history to the present times, he says j he 
 may easily do that,* if he will only keep out of the way 
 of Christ's tme followers, and leave out of sight the New 
 Testament, and confine himself to the history of indivi- 
 duals, or communities who were in a gTeat degree igno- 
 e2 
 
54 
 
 rant of the Gospel, or strangers to its spirit. Nay, he 
 may even carry his tale into futurity, and tell of cniet 
 and unkind deeds till the last shades of darkness are 
 swept away by the light of thith ; but he will find nothing 
 to justify hia charges against the Gospel of Christ. The 
 path of the Gospel is marked with blessings only, and 
 blessings will follow its steps to the last. 
 
 And when the Gospel has finished its work, violence- 
 shall entirely cease. " Men shall not hurt nor destroy in 
 all my holy mountain, saith the Lord, for the earth shall 
 be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters 
 cover the sea." When the Gospel has finished its work, 
 all remnants of evil shall have passed away, " the wolf 
 shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down 
 with the kid, the calf and the young lion and the fatling 
 together; and a little child shall lead them." The savage 
 shall become a saint ; the murderer shall leave his deeds 
 of blood, become kindly aflfectioned towards his fellow 
 merL,and be unwearid in his efforts to do good: and those 
 inen that used to waste their property in base indulgences ; 
 who abused their power to the injury of those around 
 them; who spent their nights in devising malignant 
 schemes, and their days in putting them in execution, — 
 even those, when they fall under the transforming influ- 
 ence of the Gospel, shall throw their evil deeds away, 
 shall bring their violent appetites and passions under 
 wise control, shall learn to love as Christ loved,, to 
 labour as he laboured, and, like him, if needful, they 
 will learn to suffer unto death to benefit and bless the 
 world. 
 
 Mr. JONES:— 
 
 I believe, friends, I have only ten minuter to address, 
 you to-night ; and I shall occupy that ten minutes in 
 replying to what Mr. Barker has advanced during his 
 last twenty minutes' — I was going to say, speech, but I 
 may more appropriately call it a sermon. He calls upon 
 me to prove that Christianity has done this or the other, 
 •and that the Gospel has done this or the other. Now, 
 it is Mr.. Barker's business to prove that the Gospel- ha*. 
 
i^S5 
 
 done good, and nothing but good ; it is my business a> 
 show you that it has done things which are not good. He 
 tells you that what I have advanced is mere declamatioiv 
 statement without proof, and that I cannot connect those 
 things with the Scriptui;es. Mr. Barker, your Christian 
 persecutors have sa.ved me the ti'ouble ; they have con- 
 nected them themselves ; for I have given yon the title of 
 a work which is based upon Scripture-texts, and the 
 author brings those texts to prove that tlie doctrine ot" 
 persecution is scriptural. That work was translated from 
 the Latin of Beza, by Bogerman, a man who was afterwards 
 president of the Synod of Dort, and who recommended it 
 to the magistrates to guide them in the persecution of men 
 who differed from them. It does not wait for me to connect 
 it ; it connects itself. There was not a tolerating govern- 
 ment m the world before Christ came, says Mr. Barker. 
 I deny that, on the authority of Gibbon, who has stated, 
 in his Roman Empire, that tJiere were but two or three 
 governments that denied toleration to their subjects. And 
 I will tell Mr. Barker tliat, since Christ came, there 
 never was a tolerating government. But Julian has said 
 50 and so : I told you what he had said of the Christians. 
 Mr. Barker acknowledges that he had some excellencies, 
 but he says he got them from the Christian religion. 
 Here I stand : I give you, the conduct of governments 
 that were Christian. Were their acts bad ? Yes. Oh, 
 tlieu says Mr. Barker, they^ot them from the heathens. 
 Jjefer you to Julian, a Pagan emperor, whose conduct 
 was goodi yes, but, says Mr. Bai-ker> it was the Chris- 
 tian religion that taught him that conduct. Thus I am 
 hunted by Mr. Barker : if a Pagan's acts are good, 
 Christianity is to have the credit; if a Christian 
 persecutes, it is owing to Paganism. If this is not 
 argument with a vengeance, I know not what is. Mr. 
 Barker says, the supporters of the true church never 
 persecuted. I will prove that they did ; I will prove 
 that John Wesley and the Methodists were persecutors. 
 But " bide youi' time," Mr. Barker ; I have not tracked it 
 through all its effects yet ; I shall come to them by and 
 x\ij.^l will pvQye Xh^i all are persecutors; that Mjr. 
 
56 
 
 Barker's church, to which he belongs, are persecutors; 
 so far as obstructing the doing of good to others can go ; 
 and that Mr. Barker himself has made use of perse- 
 cuting language. 
 
 Now, friends, Mr. Barker has told you he wants me 
 to connect one thing with another, to connect the Bible 
 with pei"secution. I laid down a ground-work ; the texts 
 which I read were the gi*ound-work of it; Mr. Barker 
 has not refuted it ; and the facts that I have read to you, 
 will prove to your minds that they have erected a fright- 
 ful edifice on that gi'ound-work. Persecution stares you 
 in the face : you cannot impute it to the Fathers ; its fumes 
 and steam are at this day rolling around us. Oh, but, this 
 light of Christianity in the world has not had time to chase 
 away all the darkness ! What! not time ! Not time! Is 
 eighteen hundred years not time enough P How much 
 more time does Mr. Barker want ? Are we to have it in 
 the year 2000, in 3000, or 4000 ? If I can, as I shall 
 do, track you from the first establishment of Christianity 
 down to the present day ; if I can show that your track 
 is marked all the way with blood, blood, blood; if I 
 can do that, and can show that the same spirit exists 
 now, though curbed and kept in check by the enlightened 
 portion of the public, — not the religious portion: if I 
 can prove this with respect to the influence Christianity 
 has hitherto exercised, I shall prove that it will be the 
 same for one thousand years to come, except it is curbed 
 and bridled. Oh, but Mr. Barker heard them pray for 
 and pity me. I want neither his pity nor his prayers. I 
 stand upon the ground-work of truth ; I want to do you 
 good, not to awaken your prejudices. It is only by 
 striking the delusions out of your minds, which Mr. 
 Barker's sermons inculcate ; it is only by exposing the 
 fallacy of those delusions, and showing you the evil of 
 the false principles in which you have been tutored ; it i» 
 only by thus coming before you, and braving your censure 
 and prejudices; it is only by thus acting, that I can 
 hope to do, what I trust will soon be done, if not by me, 
 by others who will take the place I occupy. I know it 
 will he done ; I repeat it again and again. I repeat thaU, 
 
57 
 
 white I respect the good disposition that originated a 
 prayer on my behalf, I want not the thing itself. I want 
 you to meet me boldly and honestly, as a man, to dis- 
 pute on the facts laid down. I say the spirit of Chris- 
 tianity is the spirit of persecution. I have given you the 
 texts which are connected with their proceedings, and 
 you can connect them yourselves. I am showing you 
 what the influence of Christianity has been, that it has 
 not produced good, but an enormous amount of evil. I 
 am doing what I promised to do ; I promise you I will 
 do it effectually. I will give you the history of their 
 proceedings, such a history as I know you will not be 
 well pleased with. You shall hear it now, and you will 
 hear it again ; for I know it will go through the length 
 and breadth of the land ;. and I am glad that Mr. Barker 
 has put his shoulder to the wheel to help its circulation, 
 
 ..:;Mr. BARKER:— 
 
 - You have been told that it is my business to prove that 
 Chi'istianity has done good : I will do that, if spared, to- 
 moiTow evening. Reference has been made to Beza : it 
 is said that he understood some passages of the New 
 Testament to sanction persecution. That might be ; but 
 he was but one man, and a man that lived several hun- 
 dreds of years ago, when Christianity was little under- 
 stood generally, and but little understood by him. I 
 question the fact myself, as given by Lloyd Jones, but 
 if Beza did so understand one passage, it proves nothing 
 against Christianity. But if the question were to be 
 decided by theological writers, Beza's authority is no- 
 thing, as. Lloyd Jones himself knows, compared with the 
 authorities on the other side. For I could mention five 
 hundred Christian authors who have understood the pas- 
 sage differently from Beza : five hundred Christian 
 authors who have proved, not from one, but from five 
 hundred passages of Scripture, that Christianity is< 
 opposed to persecution ; and if Beza did hold the doc- 
 trine which is attributed to him, he was very much 
 mistaken. And those are the writers by which we go,. 
 03. far as we choose to follow any human authors ; but we 
 
58 
 
 follow no teacher in all things bat Christ himself, aiid" 
 his words are more pure from every thing like persecu- 
 tion than the words of men are accustomed to be. 
 
 Gibbon's authority has been given, to show that there 
 were but three persecuting governments in all the ancient 
 world before the time of Christ. To show that Gibbon 
 did not speak the truth, I will give you the following 
 instances among others, in which ancient governments 
 decreed and practised persecution. The Persians, who 
 admitted no statues in their temples, persecuted the 
 Egyptians and Grecians, and broke in pieces the statues 
 of their gods. The different Egyptian cantons perse- 
 cuted; and took up arms, fought most fiercely, some- 
 times against their vanquishers, sometimes against one 
 another, to defend or avenge their gods, 'to persecute or 
 to resist persecution. The laws of the Greeks and 
 Romans were absolutely intolerant. The decree of 
 Diopythes commanded that they who denied the exist- 
 ence of the gods should be impeached. Persecutions were 
 commenced against Protagoras; Diagoras was banished 
 by the Athenians, and a reward was offered for his head ; 
 Aristotle had to seek safety by flight ; Anaxagoras with 
 difficulty escaped death ; all the philosophers were perse- 
 cuted for having written or spoken against the gods of 
 the country; a priestess was executed ; Socrates was con- 
 demned to drink hemlock, because he was accused of not 
 acknowledging the gods of the state. These facts show 
 how intolerant were the persecuting laws of the most 
 polished nation of Greece. The Roman laws were not 
 less severe : they punished the worshippers of strange 
 gods with death. Decrees and acts innumerable of an 
 intolerant nature are to be found in their codes of laws ; 
 and frequent new measures for enforcing those laws are 
 related in their histories. Mecaenas, in his counsels to 
 Augustus, recommended him to compel men to honour 
 the gods according to ancient custom, and to ha,te and 
 punish those who should attempt to make any innovations 
 \jn religion. On those laws the different governments of 
 Rome acted ; persecution continued under the emperors ; 
 the Jews were banished or obliged to renounce theii; 
 
59 
 
 religion ; Christians were exiled, spoiled, given up to 
 all cruel torments, under Nero, Domitiau, Maximiniau, 
 Diocletian, Trajan, and others ; the blood of Christians 
 which was shed in ten persecutions was beyond ail 
 calculation. The philosophers themselves advocated 
 persecution. Even Plato and Cicero both lay down in- 
 tolerance as a fundamental law of states. The authority 
 of Gibbon, indeed ! who was an insidious infidel, and who 
 laboured to the utmost extent of his power to undermine 
 Christianity. Such an authority is worth very little. In 
 things conceiTiing Christianity, he has been proved guilty 
 of five hundred misrepresentations, and more. 1 will 
 give you my authorities in opposition to Gibbon's, to 
 prove the persecuting character of the Romans and the 
 other ancient governments I have mentioned. These are 
 Livy, Valerius Maximus, Dion Cassius, Tacitus (in his 
 annals of the Roman empire), the histories of Greece 
 and Rome generally, the codes of laws, — these works 
 remain to the present day, and may be consulted by any 
 individual. 
 
 I would observe, before I conclude, that I think it 
 neither wise nor kind in Lloyd Jones, to have recourse 
 to ridicule, and instead of producing arguments, cast out 
 sneers at his opponent. It would be more seemly to lay 
 such things aside ; still if they are continued, I feel dis- 
 posed to bear them, but I cannot imitate him in such 
 practices. My speeches are like sennons, he says; but 
 what has that to do with the question ? I have known 
 sennons do much good, and they will still do good. I 
 am thankful that our system needs no support but plain 
 truth ; that it is a system of benevolence, and teaches us 
 not to catch at words, or cavil about trifles, or fight for 
 victory, but to instruct, and benefit, and seek the salva- 
 tion of men. 
 
 We have now had a sample of what can be advanced 
 against Christianity : the arguments you have heard to- 
 night are just such as have been brought against Chris- 
 tianity from the first. Not one solid or well grounded 
 objection against Christianity is to be found in all the 
 works that have been written by its enemies from the days 
 
in which it was first published to the present time, t 
 have read the objections of Porphyry, of Celsus, of Julian, 
 of Hobbes, of Toland, of Tindal, of Blount, of Woolston, 
 of Hume, of Gibbon, of Burdon, of Paine, of Voltaire, of 
 Rousseau, of Diderot, of Helvetius, of Carlile, of Taylor, 
 of Owen, of Lloyd Jones, and of Haslam, and they are all 
 alike. Arguments there are none ; but false accusations, 
 bold and extravagant statements, without truth or foun- 
 dation, there are in abundance. Arguments there never 
 can be against the truth. There was once a man that 
 stood forth and contended that there was no matter in the 
 universe ; that every thing that we thought matter was 
 nothing but fancy ; and he advanced just such arguments 
 as Lloyd Jones advances to prove that Christianity is a 
 persecuting system. No sensible man believed the phil- 
 osopher, though he was followed by a few persons in his 
 time ; and no one that thinks soberly will believe Lloyd 
 Jones, or his arguments against Christianity. He may 
 have his admirers for a time, but both he and they will 
 pass away, and leave the Gospel conqueror and master of 
 the field. The worst that infidels can do, has been done; 
 they have tried their strength, and Christianity has still 
 triumphed. They may try again; they may muster 
 their forces, but they cannot prosper. Men may plant 
 their batteries against the sun, but he will still go forward 
 in his course, and his rays will, shed light and warmth 
 upon the earth as formerly : the enemies of Christianity 
 may shoot their an'ows, or play their artillery against the 
 Gospel, but like the sun it will win its way, and give 
 light and joy and salvation wherever it goes. Even now, 
 while these men oppose it, it is imparting blessings to 
 millions; it is giving liberty to exercise their reasoning 
 powers even to those who are seeking its destruction. It 
 is exerting a happy influence upon all lands ; it is send- 
 ing its light and blessings into every clime ; it is shaking 
 all nations, and changing and purifying the whole mass 
 of human society. It is emancipating slaves, it is re- 
 forming drunkards, it is cheering with its bright prospects 
 the hearts of believers, it is chasing away the shades of 
 superstition, and imparting its light and its blessings to 
 
6\ 
 
 thousands upcm thousands, both in our own country and 
 in distant lands. It is uniting together the most distant 
 nations in the bands of mutual charity ; and it is teach- 
 ing those that are near together, to befriend and help , 
 each other ; and it is giving light, and freedom, and 
 plenty, and peace, and temperance, and joy, — all the 
 comforts of time, and all the hopes and anticipations of 
 eternity, — to tens and scores of millions. And it will still 
 go on. Foolish and unhappy men may lift up their hands 
 and think to push back the sun ; but the sun will go 
 calmly and rpiietly on, as though those men had no 
 existence, ^o the enemies of the Gospel may think to 
 check in his course the Sun of righteousness; but it will 
 still shine on. And our Sun will never set : the world on 
 which He has risen shall never see night again. Its de- 
 cline may be foretold, but the prophecy will fail : it shall 
 shine brighter and brighter, till the last clouds of eiTor 
 and guilt shall have passed away, — till there is not a sad 
 heai't in the universe, nor a bad man to be seen upon 
 earth. It shall shine upon all lands and on all hearts, 
 till all men shall not only be glad to receive the prayers 
 of their brethren, but shall pray for themselves and for 
 their brethren too. It shall shine till strife and persecu- 
 tion and war shall cease ; and till affectionate and tender, 
 and delightful sympathies shall mix all hearts in one. 
 Then angels shall sing again, as once they sang, in pro- 
 spect of this blessedness — '' Glory to God in the highest, 
 and on earth peace ; good will towards men.'' Then the 
 gi'and chorus shall l3e sung on earth by millions of happy 
 voices, and be re-echoed from the heavens by millions of 
 happy voices more — " Hallelujah ; the Lord God omnK. 
 potent reigneth ; the kingdoms of this world have become 
 the kingdoms of our God and of his Christ, and he shall 
 reign for ever and ever.'* All nations shall be free and 
 happy, and heaven shall come down to earth. For, thanks 
 be to God, Christianity has not come merely to lift up 
 us to heaven, but to bring down heaven to earth. And it 
 has already made a heaven in thousands of hearts, and in 
 thousands of families. There are souls in this place who 
 know the truth of these things by their own experience, 
 
 F 
 
62 
 
 who can scarcely help expressing their gratitude, that tli^ 
 Gospel was ever sounded in their ears. AiVd| 1 thank 
 God, there are millions scattered up atid dowii the earth, 
 aiid their numbers are increasing every yeaiV who arie 
 gladdened with the same delightful feelings, and whose 
 full hearts prompt them to shout aloud for joy. This is 
 the fruit of Christianity. Thanks be to God, that ever 
 he gave his Word to enlighteti our minds, that ' ever he 
 gav6 his Spirit to sanciifV our hearts, and that ever he 
 gave his Son, t^at throi^^h bis death we might be par- 
 doned ; and blessed be his name, that by the establish- 
 ment of Christian churches, he has mode aiTangements 
 for spreading His Hght and purity and joy tlu'oughout 
 the earth. I love the Gospel more and more ; I nevel' 
 was so convinced of its tendency to bless mankind before; 
 I never saw so clearly how little can be said against it; 
 It is a system of benevolence from first to last ; its effects 
 are the joys of heaven itself; ,and its foundation is eter- 
 nal truth. It stands on a rock ; the floods cannot wash 
 it away ; the earthquake cannot shake it ; nor can the 
 winds and tempests throw it down. All the wrath of 
 devils, all the rage of wicked men, the ravings of super^ 
 stition, the deadly hatred of infidelity, the fraudulent 
 and interested treachery of carnal men, avail nothing 
 against it. It is unconquerable ; it is invulnerable ; it 
 lifts its head above every danger, and lives and spreads 
 for evermore. At this moment it is flying ticross every 
 sea, and finding its way into every land. Like the rivef 
 of the waters of life, it is rolling its life-giving streams 
 through a thirsty world, and the panting inhabitants drink 
 and live for ever. And as it hath blessed, so shall it 
 continue to bless ; as it hath rolled its healing waters 
 through the earth, so shall it continue to roll them ; and I 
 and my fellow Christians will still stand on the banks of 
 the living streams, and cry to our fellow men, " Ho, 
 every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters ; and he 
 that hath no money, come ; and whosoever will, let him 
 come and drink, and be happy for ever." 
 
 Mr. Halliwell : — Ladies and Gentlemen," on behalf 
 
of Mr. Barker's Committee, I have to return you mc^ 
 sincere thanks for the very great attention you have paid. 
 I trust the coming night's discussion will display the 
 same feeling, the same generosity, and that no excitement 
 from the appeals that may be made to your feelings, will 
 betray you into the expression of any disapprobation 
 which may prevent the harmony of the meeting. To- 
 morrow night, I beg to aimounce that we shall endeavour 
 to accomodate the public more comfortably, by admittmg 
 a larger number of friends to the platfonn, and thus 
 leaving more space in the body of the meeting. We 
 shall also endeavour to place forty or fifty more in the 
 female gallery, allowing the females to occupy the front 
 seats, with which an'angement, I doubt not, every gentle- 
 man will be perfectly satisfied. The doors will be open 
 to-morrow night at half-past six, and the discussion will 
 commence at a quai'ter past seven ; and I hope it will 
 terminate as peacefully and harmoniously as it has done 
 this evening. Perhaps, my friend, Mr. Connard, the 
 other Chairman, will address a few words to you. 
 
 Mr. Connard : — On behalf of Mr. Jones's Committee, 
 I return you our sincere thanks for the patient hearing 
 you have given to both disputants to-night; I trust, when 
 you leave the room, the same peaceable disposition will 
 be manifested towards one another, as long as you all 
 live. I trust that to-morrow night, you will obsei-ve the 
 same good conduct ; and if you do so, I trust you will 
 receive that benefit which will tend to your mutual good 
 at another time. 
 
 itfilii 
 
m 
 
 ■''f\rlqqB on 9cf faluorf? '5r'^f(* 
 
 liOffflfi i^nij99irr 9; 
 Second Day, Wednesday, /Tstz-ttary^'^ " 
 
 Mr. Conxard : — Previous to the gentlemen resuming 
 tlie discussion, it is necessary that I should read over the 
 terms and conditions of the questions to he discussed : — 
 
 " First, Whether Christianity be the cause of all the crinoie 
 and misery in our country. Secondly, Whether Christianity be 
 not the cause of good wherever it operates, and good of every 
 kind. Mr. Bai-ker undertakes to prove that Christianity- is not 
 the cause of the misery and crime that abound in the country; — 
 that the tendency of Christianity is to produce only good ; — and 
 that wherever it operates, it produces good, and good of every 
 kind. Condition, That in the debate, nothing shall be taken for 
 Christianity but the system of Christ as laid down in th.e New 
 Testament." 
 
 You must bear in mind, that when men diffet in opi- 
 nion, the only way to reconcile these opinions is by a 
 full, fair, and candid discussion. Such I hope you will 
 find this to be; and as you manifested the most peaceable, 
 orderly, and good beha\iour last night, I hope you will 
 do the same this evening. It has been remarked by 
 several of our Manchester friends, that they never wit- 
 nessed better behaviour, where so large a number of 
 ])ersons were assembled together, than they witnessed 
 here last night. I hope the same good disposition will 
 be manifested again this evening. It is not necessary 
 for me to say more ; previous to calling on Mr. Barker, 
 Mr. Halliwell, perhaps, may say something to you. 
 
 Mr. Halliwell : — Ladies and Gentlemen, — I am 
 sure it would be unnecessary for me to repeat the obser- 
 vations I made last evening; but as there are probably 
 great numbers here now who did not hear the aiTange- 
 u^ents then entered into, it may be necessary to mention 
 
m 
 
 ?ome of them. It was understood last evening, that 
 there should be no applause, however exciting the subject 
 might be ; that there should be no disapprobation, how- 
 ever unpleasant the speeches might be ; and throughout 
 the whole meeting, almost without exception, we were 
 enabled to proceed without either applause or disapproba- 
 tion. I trust it will be the same on this occasion : it is 
 much more pleasant to the feelings of the respective 
 committees, and ])revents the manifestation of that spirit 
 which, when manifested, produces sometimes the worst 
 consequences. I beg also to remark, that the time 
 allowed for the two first speeches will be half an hour 
 each, and afterwards twenty minutes each. I may also 
 i-emark, that as the discussion is confined to two nights, 
 Mr. Barker has not, as he ought to have, the chance of 
 the last speech ; Lloyd Jones, having begun the discus- 
 sion, will also conclude it ; but it was perfectly understood 
 that Lloyd Jones, in his last speech, should bring forward 
 nouiew arguments, but simply reply to Mr. Barkers 
 obsfel-vations. I mention this that we may be, at tli« 
 end of the meeting, as comfortable as we are at the 
 commencement. 
 
 During the day, I have been frequently charged with 
 not having discharged my duty last evening ; inasmuch 
 as many friends supposed I had pennitted Lloyd Jones 
 to sti-ay so far from the question, that they scarcely knew 
 on what part of the question, or on what subject, he was 
 speaking. For my own part, I rather chose to allow the 
 utmost latitude, than to interfere with the harmony of 
 the meeting. It is my intention to allow as great latitude 
 on this occasion as I consistently can. I shall not inter- 
 fere, unless interference be absolutely necessary. And the 
 jneeting must remember, that even if it should be neces- 
 sary for myself or Mr. Connard to interfere, after one or 
 both have been heard, our umpire will have to decide which 
 is right and which is wrong. Then again, there has been 
 a great deal of misa])prehension to-day, in consequence 
 of the manner in which the discussion was commenced 
 last night : instead of the two first speeches occupving an 
 hour, they occupied something short of ten minutes> 
 f2 
 
66 
 
 This arose in consequence of Lloyd Jones declaring off 
 from one-half of the question at issue. Of course, if 
 Lloyd Jones had a right to do that, Mr. Barker had an 
 equal right to declare off from the other half : so that, if 
 both had followed the same course, there would have heen 
 no discussion. But Mr. Barker did not follow that 
 course; therefore, although the discussion did not, at the 
 commencement, assume a regular fonn, it is hoped -that, 
 to-night, at least, having discarded one of the questions 
 proposed for discussion, the remaining part will be freely, 
 properly, and honourably discussed. 
 
 It was unjderstood, when the acceptance of the question 
 by Lloyd Jones occuiTed, that he had undertaken the oppo- 
 site side of the question to Mr. Barker : that was perfectly 
 understood, for the question was asked him ; and how it 
 is that the little word " all " should frighten Mr. Jones/ 
 I am perfectly at a loss to know. However, I think it 
 unnecessary, on my part, to enter further into the matter ; 
 but to state to you, that had Mr. Jones taken up the 
 whole question, either as a whole or only a part, 'Mr. 
 Barker was fully prepared to have met him on every 
 point. These explanations have become necessary, in 
 consequence of the rumours which have been afloat dur- 
 ing the day. I wish to cast no reflections, to make no 
 severe remarks, to produce no ill feeling in the minds of 
 Lloyd Jones's friends, or of the meeting; I have there- 
 fore endeavoured to clear up this matter in the best 
 manner I am able. I hope, however, on this occasion 
 to avoid interference ; Lloyd Jones will not forget the 
 condition of this discussion, contained in a written docu- 
 ment respectively signed by the parties, — that in the 
 debate, nothing shall be taken for Christianity but the 
 system of Christ, as laid down in the New Testament. 
 For my part, whatever persecutions, or whatever bloody 
 occurrences may have taken place in history, unless 
 Lloyd Jones is prepared to show that they have had their 
 origin in the system of that book mentioned in the 
 condition, namely, the New Testament, I shall consider 
 thein as having no bearing upon the question whatever. 
 I make these remarks merely for the purpose of direct- 
 ing Lloyd Jones's attention to the condition. 
 
987 
 
 ; ' Mr. Jones :— I shall mind my business. 
 
 Mr. Halliwell : — I will make no more remarks : 
 only if the condition, as well as the question, is not 
 adhered to, it may be necessary — I hope it will not — to 
 interfere in the further jiart of the discussion. I should 
 not have occupied your time so long, but it is two or three 
 minutes short of the time for commencement. I shall 
 now sit down by calling on Mr. Barker to commence. 
 
 Mr. BARKER: — 
 
 Mr. Chairman, my Friends,— I think it proper, before 
 I enter upon the great question for discussion, this even- 
 ing, to make some remarks in reference to what passed 
 last evening. An attempt was made to prove that Chris- 
 tianity sanctioned persecution ; and four passages were 
 quoted from the New Testament to establish this point. 
 These passages, I contended, sanctioned no such spirit 
 or practices as those of persecution ; and I wish to make 
 an additional remark or two in reference to those passages. 
 The first passage is in the thirteenth chapter of Acts, res- 
 pecting Elymas the Sorcerer : — '^ Sergius Paulus, a pru- 
 dent man, called for Barrdbas and Saul, and desired to hear 
 the Word of God. But Elymas the Sorcerer withstood 
 them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith." 
 In continuation, the Apostle addressed him, charged him 
 wickedness of conduct, and said — " Now, behold, the 
 hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, 
 not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there 
 fell on him a mist and a darkness ; and he went about 
 seeking some one to lead him by the hand." It is added, 
 " Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, 
 being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord." It may 
 be remarked, that sorcery was one of the greatest curses 
 of the Gentile world : it had spread itself throughout 
 society ; the inhabitants of the villages and cities were 
 held slaves to those pretenders to sorcery and witchcraft. 
 A gi'eater mercy could scarce have been given to the 
 Gentile world than to free them from the fetters under 
 which they were enslaved, in consequence of the preten- 
 
?ions of those mischievous impostors. The course which 
 Paul took to establish the truth of the Gospel, was to 
 put an end to all such pretensions, and thereby demon- 
 strate the truth and excellence of his religion ; to deliver 
 the population of the country from that bondage in 
 which they had been held to the sorcerers, as well as 
 aflford a suitable admonition to Elymas himself, that he 
 might have, for a season, a strong inducement to consi- 
 deration, and if possible, be turned to the faith. 
 
 Another passage was the eighth verse of the first chap- 
 ter of Galatians : — '' I marvel that ye are so soon turned 
 from him that called you unto the gTace of Cln:ist, unto 
 another gospel ; which in truth is not another : but there 
 be some that trouble you, and would pervert the Gospel of 
 Christ." " But though we, or an angel from heaven," 
 says Paul, "preach any other gospel unto you than that, 
 which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." 
 Here there is no persecution ; all that is implied is — 
 " Let him be disowned as a member of the church." 
 This is no more than is done in every society : if a 
 member of the Socialists adopts Christianity, and endea-. 
 vours to form a sect in their community on principles 
 directly opposite to Socialism, they disown him at once. 
 If Robert Owen was giving directions how his communi-, 
 ties were to be conducted, he would at once say — '* Let 
 the faithless and the apostates be disowned." If I were 
 advising my friends at Oldham, I should speak in the 
 same manner, and say — " If any man adopt infidel prin- 
 ciples, and become a Socialist of the Owenite school, 
 and attempt to fonn a society on principles opposite to 
 the Gospel, let it be known to the public that he is not 
 in connexion with you." This is needful in every 
 society ; further than this the Apostle does not go : and 
 there is no trace of persecution here. The next passage 
 is in the third chapter of Titus, and the tenth verse : — 
 " A man that is an heretic, after the first and second 
 admonition, reject." The Apostle adds — '' knowing that 
 he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being con- 
 demned of himself." Here he alludes to persons who, hav- 
 ing embraced entirely opposite opinions to tliose of the 
 
church and Christianity, and begun to pursue quite con- 
 trary practices, endeavour to form a sect in opposition to 
 the church of Christ. AVhat can the church do in such a 
 case, but disown such members ? The motive and wish of 
 the Apostle is to preserve the church and the name of 
 Christianity from dishonour, — to disappoint bad men in 
 their attempts to impose upon individuals, by having their 
 principles made known ; and the church would be highly 
 to blame to allow a man to deceive its members under these 
 false pretences, where by disowning him, they might make 
 an end of his delusions. Lloyd J ones might have quoted 
 another passage where those same heretics were referred 
 to, which would ha\e put the matter in a still clearer 
 light : — " Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that 
 cause divisions and offences, contrary to the doctrine 
 which ye have leanied, and avoid them : for they that 
 are such, seek not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own 
 belly ; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the 
 hearts of the simple." It is as plain as can be that the 
 parties here refen-ed to were the opposites of Christians ; 
 sensual men, seeking their own corrupt gratification and 
 gain; " and, by good words," says he, " and fair 
 speeches, endeavouring to deceive the hearts of the 
 simple." The truth is, these heretics were a kind of 
 Socialists, who adopted the Christian profession to gain 
 support to a sensual and corrupt system, and draw away 
 disciples after them. If there be no impropriety in 
 the modem Socialists disowning men, by merely telling 
 the public, " They are not members of our association," 
 then there was no impropriety in the ancient church dis- 
 owning the ancient Socialists. Impropriety, or persecu- 
 tion, ^ere is not in the whole affair. 
 
 The last passage was, the sixteenth chapter of Mark 
 and the sixteenth verse : — " He that believeth and is bap- 
 tized shall be saved ; but he that believeth not shall be 
 damned. And they went forth, and preached every where, 
 the Lord working ^^'ith them, confinning the Word with 
 signs following." Here it is as plain as possible that, so 
 far from an}-- one being required to believe without 
 inquiry or evidence, no man was required to believe until 
 
the whole Gospel had been unfolded, and its evidences 
 laid before him : he might be pemiitted, for any thing 
 said here to the contrary, to hear fifty, preachers, and lo 
 make inquiries for ten years, or he might extend them 
 to twenty : in fact, God only is to judge of a manV 
 sincerity, or to say when his unbelief becomes criminal. 
 Miracles were given, signs and wonders were wrought, 
 all suitable evidence was employed, so as to leave indivi- 
 duals without excuse; but it is for God to judge when 
 that time shall be that they have no further excuse for 
 unbelief left; it is not for man to judge, much less to 
 persecute or compel. 
 
 It was asked by Lloyd Jones, why did not Paul en* 
 lighten Elymas's understanding, instead of blinding his 
 eyes ? How could he have done more to enlighten him 
 than he did do ? Was he to use compulsion ? Had he done 
 that, he could not have left Elymasfree, as God would have 
 all men be; and compulsion would have been pei-secution. 
 Would an opponent of persecution plead for that practice ? 
 I also showed, last evening, that the facts which were read 
 to the audience by Lloyd Jones, had nothing whatever to 
 do with the point in question. They are not the history 
 of the effects of Christianity, any more than they are the 
 history of the moon. They are the history of the effects 
 of a system which is directly opposed to Christianity, — a 
 system which Christianity came to destroy, which it is 
 destroying, and in fact, will destroy utterly as it proceeds. 
 Call those cruel facts -the history of Christianity ! As a 
 friend of mine observed after the meeting last night, he 
 might just as well have read over to us the Newgate Ca- 
 lendar, or the lives of a number of noted highwaymen, and 
 calledit the history of Great Britain. With equal propriety, 
 he might give us the history of a wrestling-match, or a 
 dog-fight, at the last Oldham election, and call it the 
 history of the effects of the Reform Bill. There is just 
 as much connexion between those excesses and the Reform 
 Bill, as there is between the stories he has read over and 
 the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This point is therefore; 
 settled; not a single passage of Scripture which he has 
 quoted sanctions persecution in the least. All present, I 
 
think, who hav.e attended to the question, will see that if 
 these are the i^^mngest props of the system which my 
 opponent advocates, that system must soon come down. 
 When arguments like these are the very best which can 
 be found to prove Christianity a persecuting system, by 
 ten thousand inquisitive iiifidels, running through the 
 Ivicw Testament in search of arguments, it is plain enough 
 how hardly they are put to it : while on the other hand, 
 a thousand passages and more can be found, by any 
 simple man, which directly discountenance persecution, 
 and enjoin those tempers ; ,:d practices that are most 
 opposed to a persecuting spirit. Besides this, the examples 
 of the Apostles are against persecution ; the example 
 of Christ is against persecution; the history of Christi- 
 anity, and of the facts that present themselves to our view 
 in the world around us, prove that the Gospel is against 
 it. Where the Gospel is most read and best understood, 
 there is the least persecution ; where it is the least read 
 and least understood, there is the most persecution. Those 
 sects that pay the most regard to the New Testament 
 persecute the least; those that pay the least regard "to it 
 are the most prone to persecute. Those countries where 
 the Gospel is not known are the most savage and fero- 
 cious and persecuting; those where it is best known, 
 are the most gentle and forbearing. Every fact that we 
 can look upon, is in direct opposition to the charge that 
 Christianity is a persecuting system : a wilder and more 
 unfounded calumny could never have been invented or 
 uttered by man. 
 
 Before I come to the main question, I will just make 
 one remark respecting Constanline. Constantine was the 
 first Roman emperor that embraced Christianity, and he 
 was the first emperor ever heard of in the history of the 
 universe, who made laws against persecution. But it is 
 said that he grew worse as he went forward ; now I just 
 happened to open upon a passage which will show that he 
 did not grow worse. He was not only the first that 
 passed a law against persecution ; he also was the first 
 heathen emperor that passed a law to restrain the power 
 of the father over his children, to prevent the destruction 
 
n 
 
 oF tip-grown children by their fathers ; and humanely 
 ordered that those children should be maintained by the 
 public whose parents were not able to do it ; and in the 
 year 319, he put an effectual stop to the destroying of 
 children, by making it a capital offence. He passed 
 another act of gi'eat humanity : it was very customary to 
 expose children, to carry out new-bora babes into the 
 streets or fields, and leave them to take their fate. This 
 had been encouraged by a great many law-givers. Expo- 
 sure, or the murder of infants, had been enforced by 
 Lycurgus, and by the laws of Rome ; but Constantino 
 passed a law to restrain that practice wherever it prevailed. 
 He also abolished the savage custom of crucifixion. 
 
 We now come to the great question, Whether Chris- 
 tianity does not produce good wherever it operates, and 
 good of every kind ? I shrink from no part of my 
 engagement in this matter; I shall not lay aside the part 
 which says, " good of every kind," to make my task 
 easier. T agi'eed to the temis as they were read over, 
 and I«should think it improper to flinch one hair's-breadth. 
 I feel thankful that I have no need to do so : the cause I 
 advocate is capable of demonstration throughout. The 
 question, whether Christianity produces good wherever 
 it operates, may be decided by a reference to the princi- 
 ples and precepts of Christianity. The precepts of the 
 Gospel are directed against all crimes, which are the 
 cause of human misery. A great deal of misery originates 
 in evil passions, anger, envy, malice, and revenge; these 
 are the perpetual tonnentors of the soul where they dwell. 
 But these are all forbidden and discountenanced by the 
 New Testament. 
 
 A great deal of the disorder and confusion in society 
 originates in injustice and deceit, in oppression and 
 slander, in strife, and calumny, and revenge. In the 
 New Testament these practices are all denounced. The 
 Apostle forbids the master to oppress his servant; he 
 commands him to render to his servant that which is 
 just and equal. He forbids us to lie, — *' laying aside 
 lying, speak every man the truth with his neighbour.'* 
 The Gospd forbids strife and emulations ; commands us 
 
73 
 
 to speak evil of no man, but to render unto all their 
 dues, and to do unto others as we would they should do 
 unto us. 
 
 A great deal of the misery of mankind originates in 
 intemperance, in drunkenness especially, and a gi'eat deal 
 may be traced to other branches of licentiousness and 
 prodigality. Many poor creatures have been undone, and 
 many thousand families have been distressed and afflicted, 
 by seduction, by some heartless man taking away the 
 daughter of his neighbour, and leading her to sin and 
 ruin. Much misery is occasioned by Uie prevalence of 
 fornication and uncleanness. These also are forbidden by 
 the Gospel : we are commanded not to flame them, that 
 is, not to speak of them as common or allowable matters, 
 A great deal of crime and misery in many countries origi- 
 nates in bad regulations with respect to marriage, such as 
 one man being permitted to have many wives, or st man 
 being permitted to tuni away his wife at pleasure. This is 
 forbidden by Christ. God, says he, ordained that one 
 man and one woman should go together. It was so 
 ordained at the first, and he forbids any man to put 
 away his wife except for the cause of adultery. Let 
 these principles be acted on, and what will be the 
 consequence to our country ? Five-sixths of all our 
 crimes havebeen attributed to drunkenness by some writers. 
 A very great many violent deaths are caused by it 
 every year; and family troubles without end, are at- 
 tributable to the same prolific source of evil. It is 
 daily wasting men's property, injuring their health, 
 shortening their lives, ruining their characters, distressing 
 their families, and disturbing their neighbourhoods. It 
 is taking away not less than a hundred millions of our 
 money annually. To what an awful amount must this 
 single vice injure our country and mankind ! Let it be 
 entirely abolished, according to the directions of Jesus 
 Christ and his Apostles, and we shall be wealthy, and 
 peaceful ; thousands upon thousands of families will be 
 made happy ; death will come more seldom, and in a 
 milder form ; men will not so suddenly break asunder 
 the cords of ftiendship and brotherhood; while liealtb, 
 
n 
 
 intelligence, plenty, freedom, all the comforts of time, 
 and all the blessings of eternity, will follow in the train 
 of the temperance refonnation. Let but the principles 
 of Christianity be acted on, and every slave will be at 
 once made free ; there will not be a dishonest man, nor 
 an unjust master, nor an injured slave, upon the face of 
 God's creation. Let these principles be acted upon, and 
 mankind are free, they are united together as brothers; 
 and instead of injuring, they befriend, and help, and com- 
 fort one another. 
 
 But the New Testament does not stop at merely for- 
 bidding vices. It enjoins men to act with unbounded, 
 sincere, ardent, impartial, universal, and unwearied cha- 
 rity. I will just give you a short epitome of the Gospel 
 precepts, and a brief character of the Gospel morality ; 
 it is from the first Epistle of Peter. " And beside this," 
 says the Apostle, " giving all diligence, add to yoar 
 faith, virtue ; and to virtue, knowledge; and to knowledge, 
 temperance ; and to temperance, patience ; and to pa- 
 tience, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness ; 
 and to brotherly kindness, charity." Only fancy a man 
 who possesses these virtues, and acts on these principles ; 
 a man who believes the Gospel, and who adds to his faith, 
 courage, which enables him to profess it boldly before all 
 the world. He adds to his courage, knowledge, that he 
 may understand in what way to proceed so as to benefit, 
 to the best advantage, his fellow men. He adds to his 
 knowledge, temperance. Temperance keeps him in health, 
 prevents his resources from being wasted, makes him 
 strong and active in mind and body, and enables him to 
 use ail the wealth and influence God has given him 
 miimpaired and unwasted, to promote the welfare and 
 happiness of his fellow men. He adds to his temperance, 
 patience ; so that while spending his health, his time, and 
 his wealth in doing good, though he meet with opposition 
 and disappointment, he still perseveres, unaltered and 
 undiscouraged. To patience he adds godliness ; he prays 
 to his Father which is in heaven, and asks the assistance 
 of that blessed Spirit which can succeed all the eflbrts of 
 God's people. To godliness he adds brotherly kindness, 
 
76 
 
 which unites him closely with all Christians, so that 
 they form one band, to counsel each other, unite their ener- 
 gies togerther, and go forth like a well disciplined army of 
 benefactors, to scatter blessings through all the earth. 
 He adds to brotherly kindness, charity, — an affection 
 which embraces all the world, and \vill not rest until 
 every tear is dried, every want relieved, and every man's 
 body and soul blessed together, and all men made heir*; 
 of an everlasting inheritance in heaven. This is an 
 epitome of the Gospel morality. I might have read 
 larger quotations to the same purpose, but to read all 
 such passages would take up all our time, for the New 
 Testament is full of such exhortations. Those are the 
 precepts which are scattered up and down on every page 
 of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The tendency of this 
 Gospel must be to do good, — to do away with crime and 
 misery, wherever it operates, — to inspire all good affec- 
 tions, and lead to all happy practices, — to make man 
 happy himself!, and the means of communicating happi- 
 ness to others. 
 
 Having established this point, that Christianity does 
 good wherever it operates, I shall proceed to show that 
 it has actually operated, and that wherever it has operated 
 it has done good. Thus it is recorded in the New 
 Testament, that when the Gospel was preached, it was 
 believed by great multitudes ; and what were the effects 
 produced ? Every man began to love his fellow men as 
 himself, and to seek the happiness of all around. They 
 did not, it is true, give up their houses, and go into a 
 community ; but they parted with such of their posses- 
 sions as could not otherwise be made available for the 
 purposes of charity, and turned them into money. They 
 regarded their property, not as their own, but as com- 
 mon property, to be used for the good of the church and 
 the good of the whole world. As soon as they formed 
 themselves into churches, deacons were appointed to 
 look over the widows, the poor, and the orphans, and to 
 see that their wants were provided for ; — the very first time 
 that such an institution ever existed upon earth. Thus 
 was the organization of the church directed to the relief 
 
of the distressed, as well as to the propagation of the 
 truth : there were deacons to look after the temporal 
 necessities of the members of the church, and preachers 
 to go forth and promote the spiritual interests of the world. 
 
 We have other testimonies, besides those given in the 
 New Testament itself, to the excellence of the effects 
 produced by Christianity. We quoted Julian last night ; 
 he tells the high priests of idolatry, that it is a disgrace 
 to the Pagans to disregard those of their own religion, 
 while Christians are doing kind offices even to strangers 
 and to their enemies. Again, he proceeds to say — " Tne 
 Galileans (the name he gives to Christians) notice our 
 supineness, and they take advantage of it : while we 
 neglect the poor, they are ever kind to them; hence, 
 while they obtain influence every where, we lose it ; 
 and our cause must sink, and theirs must rise, unless 
 we imitate their beneficence." Lucian also, another 
 opponent of the Gospel, pointed to the Christians as 
 patterns of love and chai'ity ; their love for one another 
 Ijecame a proverb, and men used to say, " See how these 
 Christians love one another." 
 
 The influence of Christianity upon those who em- 
 braced it has been related, and painted in the most 
 affecting and glowing colours, even by the enemies as 
 well as the friends of the Saviour of mankind. I will 
 enter upon some particulars. 
 
 In the first place, by the influence of Christianity, 
 wherever it prevailed, the great superstructure of Idolatry 
 was shaken and thrown down ; the Pagan temples were 
 deserted ; purchasers of sacrifices for idols were no longer 
 to be found ; and hence all the cruelty, pollution, and 
 crime connected with every system of idolatry, ceased 
 at the same time. The people had been accustomed 
 to offer human sacrifices, and to prostitute themselves 
 to the vilest lusts, in the worship of their idols. They 
 had been in the habit of sacrificing themselves to their 
 idols, of wounding, mutilating, and destroying them- 
 selves. But when Christianity prevailed, these things 
 passed away. Instead of bowing down to wooden gods, 
 they worshipped the Maker of all things : instead of 
 
performing foolisli and unclean rites, and offering cruel 
 sacrifices, they worshipped the Father in spirit and in 
 truth. Rational worship was inculcated : the sacrifices 
 Christians offered were to do good and to communicate their 
 blessings to others ; for wiih these sacrifices, the Gospel 
 .taught them, God is well pleased. Instead of offering their 
 children as a sacrifice to idols, they consecrated them to 
 God, and trained t4iem up in his service. Instead of prac- 
 tising all uncleanness, the greatest purity was required and 
 maintained in the worshippers of the true Gcd. The sys- 
 tem was totally changed, and the benefits ro.-ulting to those 
 upon whom Christianity exerted its influence, were in- 
 numerable and incalculable. 
 
 Christianity also struck at the root of all kinds of sui>er- 
 slition. Superstition oppressed and afflicted the whole 
 world. Astrology, soothsaying, fortune-telling, sorcery, 
 witchcraft, omens, magic, the observance of lucky and un- 
 lucky days, of lucky and unlucky places and events, every 
 where prevailed. The sorcerers tyrannised over every 
 village ; they entered into the councils of the nations, and 
 directed the movements of armies. The whole world was 
 in slavery, abject slavery, to those pretenders to super- 
 natural powers. But when Christianity came, it swept 
 away those pretences, as the sun dispels the clouds of the 
 morning : it revealed a God that governs all things, 
 ordering all the affairs of the universe, and the preten- 
 sions to supernatural powers on the part of man were at 
 once exploded. Christianity taught them that there was 
 a powerful Being, by whom the very hairs of their head 
 were numbered ; a God that could keep tiiem from the 
 power both of sorcerers and devils; that nothing could 
 harm them while they were followers of God, and that 
 all the sufferings of this present life should be made 
 to work for their good. They were thus made free, 
 independent, and happy. 
 
 Mr. JONES :— 
 
 Mr. Chairman, Ladies, and Gentlemen, — Pennitmeto 
 Bay that I am extremely well pleased with the moderation 
 •xhibited by the meeting last night ; and it is. evident to 
 
 '—'-- '-■ g2 ''-'-''■'' 
 
78 
 
 me that some good will arise from this discussion. Whe- 
 ther the truth be on my side of the question, or whether 
 it rests on the side of the question espoused by Mr. Barker, 
 while you listen quietly to our ai-guments on both sides, 
 you will, I have no doubt, listen profitably. Mr. 
 Halliwell, at the opening of to-night's proceedings, made 
 some few remarks that I consider to be uncalled for. 
 When I gave you, last night, a history of the pro- 
 ceedings of the early Christians, I gave you the texts 
 of Scripture, from the New Testament, which they 
 themselves quoted in support of such proceedings. And 
 if the New Testament, or those texts of Scripture, as 
 they were interpreted by the parties that used them for 
 such purposes, had not the influence in doing what I 
 stated they had done, and if I did not trace out that 
 connection, then I did nothing. But will Mr. Barker 
 stand up here, will any member of any dissenting church 
 in England, get up and declare that he is an infallible 
 guide, — that he alone can give a just interpretation of what 
 Scripture means ? No church lays claim to that power 
 but the Catholic church. Mr. Barker discards infallibility; 
 he does not hold himself to be an infallible judge. There- 
 fore, he has no right to give me his interpretation, and 
 say it is a just interpretation. I have as good a right to 
 say, that the interpretation put upon those texts of Scrip- 
 ture by Beza, when he quoted them in favour of persecu- 
 tion, was a just interpretation ; and it was a just one to 
 him. 
 
 The course, then, that I took last night, is the course 
 I will take to night ; and I do maintain, that that course 
 having been sanctioned last night, cannot, with fairness or 
 ju'opriety, be disturbed or interrupted to-night. I am 
 sorry that Mr. Barker's friends are alarmed at the thing; 
 I tell him and them that the truth must prevail ; whether 
 they or my friends are alarmed, is a matter of little 
 consequence. Let the discussion go on, let the truth 
 prevail, for it will be triumphant. >My opponent's chair- 
 man seemed to cast imputations upon me for running 
 away irom the first part of the question ; and he said 
 that Mr. Barker had as good a right to run away from 
 
?9 
 
 tlie second part of the question. Allow me to state, 
 that the first part of the question, or the proposition 
 contained in it, was never assented to by me, or any one 
 of my party: it was an imagination of Mr. Barker's, 
 cast as a slander upon us. 1 never made any such asser- 
 tion ; therefore I am not abandoning any assertion I 
 ever made. The second proj)osition was laid down by 
 Mr. Barker as a true proposition ; therefore he had no 
 right to abandon it. There would be a wide difference 
 between Mr. Barker's abandonment of the second propo- 
 sition and my abandonment of the first. 
 
 I now come to a few of the closing remarks made last 
 night by friend Barker. He seemed to cast a doubt upon 
 the authority of Gibbon, and stated that he had been 
 convicted of five hundred errors. Allow me to tell Mr. 
 Barker, that with all the errors of Gibbon, and notwith- 
 standing all his errors, he has acted more fairly by the 
 Christian public than they have acted by him. So much 
 are they afraid of him, with ail his errors, that in the new 
 edition of his works, they have endeavoured to destroy his 
 arguments against the Christian religion. Do you call that 
 fairness or honesty ? If Gibbon was dishonest, you are 
 frightfully dishonest. Allow me to tell you, the edition of 
 Gibbon to which I allude is Milman's, lately pub- 
 lished. After enumerating a number of good precepts in 
 the New Testament, Mr. Barker went on to speak of 
 their effects ; and there was a spirit of benevolence rim- 
 ning through all he said. Very well ; as soon as we come 
 down to Mr. Barker, we shall see to that. He then 
 emimerated a great number of infidel writers whom he 
 had read. I am only sorry that JNIr. Barker was not a 
 little more coiTect in his enumeration ; for, at tlie head 
 of his list, he places Porphyry and Celsus. Mr. Barker 
 must be an extremely clever man, to have read the works 
 of Porphyry, which were out of existence in the reign of 
 Constantine : not a leaf nor a letter of them was then in 
 existence ; and the only knowledge we have of his 
 works is by their being mentioned in the edict of Con- 
 stantine against Arius. To prove the truth of this, I 
 will read a passage from the edict of Constantine. He 
 
says — " For as Porphyrius, the sworn adversary and 
 deadly foe of divine service, who lately published lewd com- 
 mentaries, in the confutation and defiance of the Christian 
 religion, 'vas rewarded according unto his desert, and so 
 recompensed that within the compass of these few years 
 he was not only grieved with great reproach, and ble- 
 mished with the shameful spot of infamy, but also his 
 impious and blasphemous works, perished and utterly 
 were abolished." And yet it seems Mr. Barker has found 
 them somewhere, and has read them. Allow me, also, to tell 
 Mr. Barker that the works of Celsus have no existence ; 
 the only portion of them which we have are those pas- 
 sages which have be&n extracted by Origen into his 
 writings, for the purpose of confutation ; the works 
 themselves were destroyed by the edict of the Emperor 
 Theodosius the Second. 
 
 Now to the subject matter of to-night's discussion, and 
 to a few of the remarks made by Mr. Barker, He has 
 endeavoured to put a different inteipretation upon the 
 passages of Scripture that I read to you last night for 
 your consideration ; and he maintains that the instances 
 I brought forward were not persecutions ; that striking a 
 man blind was not persecuting him, but a mode of con- 
 vincing him, and of convincing Sergius Paulus through 
 him. Now, I don't know what idea Mr. Barker may 
 have of persecution : but if I were struck blind by any 
 person, I should think that it was persecuting me. But 
 Mr. Barker seems to have a strange dictionary; I shall 
 comment on that, by and by. The next portion of Mr. 
 Barker's dictionary is in reference to this passage : — " If 
 any man preach any other Gospel unto you than that ye 
 have received, let him be accursed" Oh, but says Mr. 
 Barker, that does not mean any thing bad; it only means 
 tliat you are to reject him from your congTegation, not to 
 have him among you. But in another place we are told, 
 ** A man that is a heretic after the first and second admo- 
 nition, reject" Therefore, according to Mr. Barker's 
 definition, cursing and rejecting are exactly the same 
 thing. But, as I said before, it is not with Mr. Barker s 
 definition that I have to do. There was a body of men 
 
in existence, who held more power over the destinies of 
 the world than Mr. Barker holds, or ever will hold, — I 
 allude to the Popes of Rome, — who attached a very dif- 
 ferent meaning to the word " accui-sed ;" for with them it 
 meant not only rejection from the congregation, but at 
 the same time, a denial to the person rejected of all the 
 sympathy and aid which one brother can render to ano- 
 ther ; putting a whole nation into mourning, sackcloth, 
 and ashes ; and empowering the priests to rush in and 
 dissever the ties by which nature has bound every heart 
 in existence. Oh, but these heretfcs were very bad men, 
 they were bad and sensual men, in fact, they were Socialists, 
 according to Mr. Barker. Now, many of you heard Mr. 
 Barker, last night, preach about the charity that St. Paul 
 spoke of; indeed, it is such a beautiful thing, he told us, 
 it could not think any evil. Oh, no, but Mr. Barker 
 thinks that the Socialists are sensualists ; now he is full 
 of charity, and does not think any evil. Then he tries to 
 justify the passage in Mark, the 16th chapter and 16th 
 verse — " He that beUeveth and is baptized shall be saved ; 
 but he that believeth not shall be damned." When 
 Christ made use of these words, according to Mr. Barker, 
 he also supplied the nations with a sufficiency of evidence. 
 The answer is very easy ; if they had been supplied with 
 a sufficiency of evidence, behef would have followed, and 
 there would have been no occasion for hell. 
 
 The point, then, according to Mr. Barker, is quite 
 settled, there being no connexion at all between these 
 passages and the persecutions that flowed from ihem. 
 But if the persecutions were grounded upon them, if the 
 parties persecuting say themselves that they were grounded 
 upon them, and give the passages as their authority for 
 persecuting, then there was a connexion, — a connexion 
 which Mr. Barker can never destroy. Therefore, I say 
 to Mr. Barker, the point is settled ; but not settled ac- 
 cording to the manner in which he would wish to see it 
 settled. After giving these passages the nicest explana- 
 tion and interpretation which he could, Mr. Barker says 
 they are all that ten thousand inquiring infidels could 
 find out. I will tell Mr. Baiker that they did not wait 
 
33 
 
 to be found out by inquiring infidels ; Christians found 
 them out, and Christians interpreted them, and Chris- 
 tians founded persecution upon them ; it was not infidels 
 who discovered these passages, but Christians; Chris- 
 tians wrote in favour of such passages, they found them 
 out, and they found out that they sanctioned persecu- 
 tion. But, he says, these were not the effects of Chris- 
 tianity. I tell Mr. Barker these were the effects of those 
 texts which are a portion of Christianity, which exist in 
 the New Testament; and it is the eflfects of this that I 
 am speaking about. They are not, then, unfounded 
 calumnies; Mr. Barker cannot reason them away. It 
 is a very easy matter to draw a ^pretty picture; it is 
 very easy for Mr. Barker, as he did last night, to ima- 
 gine what he knows in his heart has no existence. But 
 it is not so easy to reason away i\\& facts I laid before the 
 meeting ; there they stand recorded as your actions ; the 
 printing press has made them eternal ; they will stand to 
 the end of time as witnesses against you. I last night 
 stated, that Constantino became worse the longer he 
 remained in the Christian school. This remark I made 
 in consequence of an expression which Mr. Barker had 
 made use of: he said that Constantine first passed a law 
 against persecution, but that his Pagan principles broke 
 in upon him, and then he passed laws in favour of per- 
 secution. I merely said, that while Constantine's first 
 acts, after he turned a Christian, were acts of toleration, 
 the acts that subsequently followed were acts of persecu- 
 tion, and, therefore, he got worse in the Christian school ; 
 and if those things are true, he did get worse in it. But 
 the laws Mr. Barker spoke of have nothing to do 
 with the matter. Can he trace them to the effects of 
 Christianity, because other emperors, who were not 
 Christians, have passed laws against Christianity ? Surely, 
 if I am from the question, Mr. Barker is a thousand 
 miles from it. 
 
 Then, a number of beautiful precepts were enumerated 
 by Mr. Barker ; and he says they form one bond of bro- 
 therhood all over the world, and they are doing good 
 kere and doing good there. Now, if we could, for a 
 
moment, abstract ourselves from the every-day occur- 
 rences of life, we might- imagine, from this description, 
 that we were dwelling in a most delightful Utopia, in a 
 Paradise, where all the flowers and birds that existed in 
 nature were congregated together to administer to our 
 happiness. I was almost led away by this vision, imtil, 
 bethinking me of the ties which bind me to earth, and 
 of the realities which exist around me, I said to myself. 
 Where is the picture supplied by Mr. Barker ? and 
 echo answered, " Where !" Does it exist in reality ? 
 No : it exists in the mind^f Mr. Barker alone, and only 
 there at the moment that he is speaking of the excel- 
 lence of Christianity ; for I will prove to you that he 
 thinks di/Terently at other times. That I will prove to 
 you. But Mr. Barker says, the Christians were ex- 
 tremely good at first; they were a perfect brotherhood, 
 tliey even sold their property, and brought it all together. 
 Yes, but even in bringing that property together they 
 were not a perfect brotherhood ; because, when one man 
 and his wife, Ananias and Sapphira, thought they had 
 better keep a little back, some of the Apostles were so 
 good as to strike them dead ; so you see what a good 
 feeling must have existed among them. But as Mr. 
 Barker's statements are merely views, and as I like to 
 deal in realities, I will give you the language of Paul 
 himself to the early Christians. Speaking to the Corin- 
 thians, he says, " For ye are yet carnal: for whereas 
 there is among you envying, and strife, and divisioUvS, 
 are ye not caiTial, and walk as men ?" Were it not that 
 .Ihe Apostle told me so, I should have been inclined to 
 believe Mr. Barker; but I cannot take his authority in 
 opposition to that of the Apostle Paul. 
 
 Now, my friends, I will proceed with my little history 
 of persecution, and T will run over it as briefly as I can. 
 I will take it up where I finished before, beginning with 
 the Council of Chalcedon. This council was called to 
 decide on the heresy of Dioscorus and Eutyches, who 
 had asserted that " Jesus Christ consisted of two natures 
 before his union or incarnation, but that, after this, he 
 had one nature only." He also denied that the body of 
 
Christ was of the same substance with ours. Well, the 
 bishops and others met, and sat, and you may suppose 
 what a very kindly feeling prevailed among them, for as 
 soon as they begun, some of the fathers cried out, — 
 " Damn Dioscorus, banish Dioscorus, Christ hath de- 
 posed Dioscorus!" 
 
 Mr. Halliwell: — I must certainly interfere. My 
 friends behind think that Lloyd Jones is pursuing a 
 course which is contrary to propriety. The meeting will 
 observe that no one has a right to interfere but ourselves 
 and the Umpire. If I am proved to be in the wrong, I 
 shall sit down quite willingly; of course, if I am right, 
 Lloyd Jones must change his plan. The condition of 
 this discussion, " that in the debate nothing shall be 
 taken for Christianity but the system of Christ as laid 
 down in the New Testament," must be adhered to. Can 
 Lloyd Jones prove that this is the system of Christ as 
 laid down in the New Testament ? If he can, then he 
 must proceed. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — Very well, my friend, I'll tell you. 
 
 Mr. CoxxARD : — Ladies and Gentlemen, — I believe it 
 is my duty to speak now. I fully agree with Mr. Halli- 
 well, that it is our business to interfere, and no other 
 person's. A gentleman at the back of Mr. Barker whis- 
 pered to the Umpire, and he called on Mr. Halliwell to 
 interfere. I say this is not honourable treatment. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — Allow me, before there is any more 
 contention about this matter, to say a word in my own 
 justification. The question is. Whether Christianity is 
 not the cause of good wherever it operates, and of goodk 
 of every kind. Now, we are only to look into the 
 Testament for the thing itself: and we are to look at the 
 acts of those who call themselves Christians for the influ- 
 ence of the thing. Therefore, I look at the Testament for 
 the thing itself, and I look at the church for its influence ; 
 and I do maintain that, in doing this, I am keeping 
 strictly to the question. If it is not so, I ask Mr. Hal- 
 liwell with what feeling of consistency he can interfere 
 to prevent the course to-night which he allowed me to 
 adopt last night. I say it is an unfair proceeding; and 
 
if allowed to be carried on, I shall appeal to the public 
 against such injustice. 
 
 Mr. Halliwell: — Ladies and Gentlemen, — Lloyd 
 Jones shall not have injustice : he shall have justice, but 
 not in his own way. According to the rules of dis- 
 cussion 
 
 [There was considerable uproar in the; meeting at this 
 time.] 
 
 Mr. .Tones : — Can you object to my argument con- 
 sistently ? 
 
 Mr. 'Halliwell : — I must remark, that the sugges- 
 tion that Mr. Jones was pui-suing a wrong course, was 
 not made to me by the Umpire, but by a gentleman who 
 sits here, giving me any assistance that I may require. 
 Now, he had a perfect right to do that, and it is very 
 unbecoming in Ll6yd Jones's friends to interfere ; because, 
 after Mr. Connard and myself have given our opinions, 
 the matter will be submitted to the Umpire, who will 
 state his reasons for the decision he may come to. Both 
 Mr. Jones's Chairman and myself are in the hands of Mr. 
 Hallidav ; to his decision we must bow. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — I wish to ask who is the gentleman that 
 whispered Mr. Halliwell. I say that no gentleman has 
 a right to whisper to him. Who is he, sir ? 
 
 Mr. Halliwell : — Ladies and Gentlemen, — Lloyd 
 Jones, last night, received assistance from half-a-dozen 
 friends ; so did his Chaimian ; and we will to-niglit receive 
 assistance from whomsoever we think proper, without 
 consulting any one. Lloyd Jones ought to sit down, 
 and leave the question to the Chainnen and the Umpire. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — Then, if the Umpire gives his decision 
 against me, I will have a meeting in this town to-morrow 
 night. I will go through my histoiy, and it shall be 
 published. 
 
 Mr. Halliwell (after consulting with his friends, 
 during which great confusion prevailed in the meeting,) 
 — I fancv this meeting must be aware that we can under- 
 stand from whom this disturbance comes. I shall exer- 
 cise mv best abilities to prevent disturbance on the part 
 of my friends; and I claim the exercise of the same 
 
 H 
 
influence from my opponents. When I interfered, I had 
 a right to interfere, occupying the situation which I do. 
 If I have unhandsomely, or ungentlemanly interfered, 
 Lloyd Jones can state it ; hut I must say, it is unbecom- 
 ing to attempt intimidation in the manner in which Lloyd 
 Jones has done, by threatening what he will do hereafter. 
 That is a matter for his own judgment, and caji gra- 
 tify his own feelings and those of his friends only. He 
 has a perfect right to meet here to-morrow night. Or for 
 three hundred and fifty nights to come, without our 
 interference, or any of our friends. But Lloyd Jones 
 shall not have the privilege of meeting here and laiinting 
 us with injustice. I and my fiiends have resolved that 
 Lloyd Jones shall pursue his own course, shall say what 
 he likes, and argue as he pleases. I will therefore sit 
 down, and permit him to go on. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — Now I am allowed to go on ; but I had 
 rather submit to the Umpire, if he decided against me. 
 1 would submit it to him and the Chairmen on those 
 grounds ; and T have no fear for my principles. 
 
 Mr. Halliwell : — If Mr. Jones wishes to do so, we 
 are willing. The Umpire was mutually chosen ; he was 
 the gentleman fixed on by both sides. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — I have no objection to take it either 
 way. I shall commence where I was interrupted by 
 Mr. Barker's Chaimian; and I hope I shall have the 
 time allowed. 
 
 Mr. Halliwell : — Very well : I think we have inter- 
 rupted you ten minutes. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — I told you what were the results of the 
 Council of Chalcedon. The next we come to is the 
 Council of Constantinople. They met because of the 
 opposition that had been made to the four former general 
 councils, and to take into consideration the writings of 
 Origen, which Eustachius, bishop of Jerusalem, accused, 
 as full of many dangerous errors. The first question 
 debated in that" council was this : — " Whether those who 
 were dead were to be anathematised, or accursed ?" So 
 strong was their religious feeling, that they were not 
 content with excommunicating and cutting off the living, 
 
87 
 
 but they wanted to dig into the very graves, and curse 
 the bones of those who were rotting in them. And we 
 are told that " one Eutychius looked with contem])t on 
 the fathers for their hesitation in so plain a matter, and 
 told them that there needed no deliberation about it ; lor 
 that king Josias formerly did not only destroy the idola- 
 trous priests who were living, but dug also those who had 
 been dead long before out of their graves. So clear a 
 determination of the point who could resist ? The 
 fathers immediately were convinced, and Justinian caused 
 him to be consecrated bishop of Constantinople in the 
 room of Meros, just deceased, lor this his skill in Scrip- 
 ture and casuistry." 
 
 The next was the third Council of Constantinople, 
 to decide whether Christ had two wills. Persecution 
 followed that. The next was the Nicene council of 
 787, to decide whether images should be set up in 
 churches. After deciding in the affirmative, they added, 
 according to custom, — "Damnation to all heretics; 
 danuiation on the council that warred against venerable 
 images; the Holy Trinity hath deposed them." 
 
 Thus, you see, friends, 1 have followed the early Christ- 
 ians from the first century to the eighth, and have tracked 
 them through blood and desolation, from the moment 
 they got the least power into their hands. It was then 
 found necessary, not to be calling councils occasionally, 
 to take into consideration new heresies, but to establish 
 the Inquisition, which should cut off every heresy in the 
 bud ; and such was the extensive use made of this 
 frightful institution, that it desolated that part of the 
 world where it existed. 
 
 Perhaps I am not offering any arguments against Mr. 
 liarker's system ; but I am taking the thing down from the 
 first to the last; and, as I told you before, I shall be at 
 home directly. One would have imagined that the men 
 who didered from the orthodox on those points, when they 
 got the power into their hands, would have been, at least, 
 tolerant ; ar»d that Luther, Calvin, and those parties 
 would have been good and tolerant men. But what was 
 the consequence, what was the real result of the Refor- 
 
88 
 
 mation ? That Luther himself sanctioned pei*secution, 
 and allowed that heretics might be con'ected. But 
 Calvin improved upon Luther, and absolutely wrote ^n 
 defence of persecution. He was the means of causing 
 Servetus, whom he called a heretic, to be burned ; and he 
 wrote a work, which was published in Geneva, to prove 
 that it was lawful to burn heretics : — " A Declaration for 
 maintaining the true Faith, held by all Christians con- 
 cerning the trinity of persons in one only God, by John 
 Calvin, against the detestable errors of Michael Servetus, 
 a Spaniard ; in which it is also proved, that it is lawful to 
 })unish Heretics, and that this wretch was justly executed 
 in the city of Geneva. Geneva, 1554." — That was the 
 title of the work. These were the Reformers, men who 
 had thrown off the shackles of Popery. His treatment of 
 Castellio is said to have been rude and cruel; and in 
 some of his writings he calls him — " blasphemer, reviler, 
 malicious barking dog, full of ignorance, bestiality, and 
 impudence, an impostor, a base corrupter of the Sacred 
 Writings, a mocker of God, a contemner of all religion, 
 an impudent fellow, a filthy dog, a knave, an impious, 
 lewd, crooked-minded vagabond, beggarly rogue !" 
 
 This is that nice bond of brotherhood which Mr. Barker 
 so beautifully pourtrayed to you : what a pity it is, that it 
 never had an existence ! One would have imagined that 
 the enlightened followers of Calvin would have exhibited 
 it. Did they do so ? You have all seen, I doubt 
 not, Combe's Constitution of Man, and have noticed 
 a representation of the head of Melancthon. This 
 head has been called by phrenologists the chef d'cEUvre 
 of the Almighty ; it possesses large benevolence, and 
 every good organ. Well, he actually wrote in his letters, 
 that he wondered how any body could condemn the pro- 
 ceedings of Calvin, about the burning of Servetus. So 
 you see that one of the noblest works of the Almighty, 
 in consequence of these bad principles, was led to act in 
 this malignant manner. Bucer, another Reformer, said 
 publicly in his sermon, that Servetus ought to have his, 
 bowels pulled out, and to be torn in pieces. There was, 
 a nice sentiment to come out of the mouth of a Christian 
 
89 
 
 preacher in the pulpit ! In fact, if I were to read you 
 all the passages of this kind, you would be sickened at 
 the proceedings of these extremely kind, charitable, and 
 good Christians. It may be said these were but indivi- 
 duals, and that I hare no right to charge Christian bodies 
 and churches with the proceedings of individuals, though 
 they might be leaders. Allow me to tell you, that these 
 practices were not confined to indinduals, such as Calvin, 
 Luther, and Melancthon, but were adopted by the whole 
 body, their churches and their councils. The council of 
 Geneva, in particular, in 1632, put Nicholas Anthoine 
 to death for heresy. This council was composed of 
 senators, ministers, and presbyters ; so that, it may be 
 supposed, all their piety and Christian love was congre- 
 gated together. V. Gentilis was forced, by Calvin and 
 othei-s, to walk naked through the streets, publicly to 
 denounce his own works, and bum them with his own 
 hands ; he was then taken prisoner, and was afterwards 
 beheaded for writing these works. At Basil also, heresy 
 \vus punishable with death since the Reformation ; one 
 David George, who was banished, had his body burned 
 after death, in consequence of his heresies. At Zurich, 
 Felix was drowned, for being a Baptist. John Sylvanus 
 was put to death, in 1571, for Arianism ; and the synod 
 of -Dort, on their inquiry into the dispute between 
 Anninius and Calvin, condemned Grotius to perpetual 
 imprisonment, beheaded the old advocate Baraevelt, and 
 banished numerous families without any notice. Turn 
 we ilow to our own country. We are, to be sure, much 
 more enlightened than the countries on the continent, an 
 exceedingly intelligent people ; but I will tell you about 
 our proceedings when I next get up : my time is now 
 expired. 
 
 Mr. BARKER:— 
 
 I would just observe, that when TJoyd Jones says 
 he gave the texts of Scripture on which those persecutors 
 up to the eighth century acted, or pretended to act, he states 
 what he knows to be untrue. He did state that Beza; one 
 man only, grounded the doctrine of persecution on one 
 h2 
 
90 
 
 text; that was all. But he never connected the evil 
 doings of those pretenders to Christianity with any single 
 part of the Gospel, throughout the whole of his hloody 
 speeches. I would further state, that I never meant, 
 and I never stated, that I had read the works of Porphyry 
 and Celsus. I stated that I had seen their objections 
 to Christianity. I read the sentence referred to, and 
 the manuscript from which I read it is present. I have 
 seen the objections where Lloyd Jones says they are to 
 be found, namely, in the quotations made from their works 
 by Origen, and in the fragments scattered up and down 
 the works of the ancient Christian fathers. I cannot stay 
 to ex])ose all Lloyd Jones's mis-statements, or attempts 
 to misrepresent my words ; but I think it necessary thus to 
 point out one or two, that you may be upon your guard. 
 With respect to the word " accursed :" in the third verse 
 of the ninth chapter of Romans, Paul, in expressing 
 his gi'eat anxiety for the welfare of his Jewish brethren, 
 says, " For I could wish that myself were accursed from 
 Christ for my brethren," that is, separated from the public 
 body of Christians, from the privileges of communion 
 with the church, — lor the sake of his brethren's advantage, 
 and that they might share those privileges. This is the 
 intrinsic, the correct, and original meaning of the word. 
 How the Popes may have changed the meaning of words 
 is no concern of ours ; that is its uniform meaning in 
 the New Testament. As to what the Popes of P»,ome 
 thought or did, we have nothing whatever to do with it ; 
 they never pretended to follow the New Testament alone; 
 they expressly professed to follow something else, they 
 shut up the New Testament in a strange language, and 
 set that something else above and against the New 
 Testament. Not one of the persecutors that has been 
 mentioned ever gave the passage of the New Testament 
 on which he acted; and if he had, as Lloyd Jones pro- 
 perly acknowledged, it would have proved nothing against 
 the system, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, nothing whatever. 
 If a child should get some medicine from a druggist, 
 and instead of applying it externally as a liniment, should 
 swallow it, and be poisoned, an outcry mi(/hl be made 
 
&\ 
 
 against the medicine, but the mistake would be that of 
 the child. So it is with those who misunderstand some 
 passages of Scripture: one man may misunderstand a 
 single passage, and suppose it to sanction perseclions, but 
 ten thousand times ten thousand have understood it rightly, 
 and, in accordance with the whole tenor of the Gospel, 
 have condemned persecution. But Lloyd Jones says, 
 Calvin and Luther persecuted. We know they did wrong, 
 and we pity them for it, for we know that the truth was 
 sufficient to make its own way ; but when he adds that 
 their followers have not condemned their ])ersecutions, he 
 speaks that which is not the truth. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — I said their contemporaries. 
 
 Mr. Barker :— All their followers to this day condemn 
 it; they condemn it on scriptural grounds, and quote the 
 passages which authorize its condemnation. 
 
 When Scripture was quoted by those persons whom 
 Lloyd Jones mentioned to justify persecution, it was not 
 the New Testament, but from the case of Josiah, who 
 lived under the Old Testament ; and we all know that the 
 system of the Old Testament was not and did not profess 
 to be a tolerant system. (Christ says, " You have heard 
 that it hath been said by them of old time. Thou shalt 
 love thy neighboiu', and hate thine enemy. But I sav 
 unto you. Love your enemies, bless them that curse yon, 
 do good to them that hate you, and ])ray for them which 
 despitefully use you." That is the uniform tenor of the 
 New Testament, which is the book that we at present 
 follow, and to which this debate was to be confined. I 
 will give you a iew more quotations from this book. " Let 
 love be without dissimulation," says the Apostle ; " abhor 
 that which is evil ; cleave to that which is good ; be kindl\- 
 affectioned one to another, with brotherly love, in honour 
 preferring one another : not slothful in business ; fer- 
 vent in spirit, serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope ; patient 
 in tribulation; continuing constant hi prayer ; distributing 
 to the necessity of saints ; given to hospitality. Bless thern 
 which .persecute you ; bless and curse not : recompense to 
 no man evil for evil ; provide things honest in the sight 
 of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, 
 
9SJ 
 
 lire peaceably with all men. Be not overcome of evil, 
 but overcome evil with good." These are the doctrines 
 of the New Testament. No man is a Christian, except 
 in so far as he conforms to these doctrines. Lloyd Jones 
 calls other people Christians, whose characters were the 
 opposite to those above described ; but he cannot prove 
 that they were Christians either in heart or in life. He 
 knows they were not Christians : he knows that he is 
 misrepresenting one of the plainest subjects in the uni- 
 verse, by attributing to our system the effects of another 
 system which we oppose. 
 
 He asks, where is the original of the beautiful picture 
 I have drawn of the effects of Christianity ? Thank 
 God, many parents here have it in their own houses : 
 many persons present feel it in their own hearts. They 
 also have it to a great extent in the South Sea Islands. The 
 happy effects of Christianity have been seen in different 
 forms, in various parts of the earth. If one of us quote 
 history, why may not the other ? And I could quote 
 ten thousand instances of persons professing the Gospel 
 who have loved their enemies, who have not persecuted, 
 but have prayed for those who persecuted them, where 
 Lloyd Jones can produce one who has done otherwise. 
 If Volney, the infidel, was a persecutor, and called 
 himself a Christian, can we help that ? According to 
 Lloyd Jones's plan of reasoning, an infidel has nothing 
 to do but kill his fellow men, and say that he understood 
 the New Testament to teach him to do so ; and he might 
 then proceed to lay all the murders in the universe upon 
 the Christian Scriptures. It is just the same about 
 Beza : we all know he was mistaken. It requires little 
 learning to know that. The Bible is not so dark as to 
 need an infallible interpreter; all is so plain that a 
 wayfaring man, though a fool, need not eiT therein. 
 
 In the remark which Lloyd Jones made about Ananias 
 and Sapphira, I was very sorry to see such a wilful perver-' 
 sion of facts. They were not struck dead by the Apostle ; 
 nor were they so much as blamed for keeping back part 
 of their property. I will read you the passage: — " But 
 a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife,," 
 
9^ 
 
 sold a possession, and kept back part of the price, hh 
 wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain parf, 
 and laid it at the Apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, 
 why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy 
 Ghost, and keep back part of the price of the land ? 
 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own ? And after it was 
 sold, was it not in thine own power ?" They were under 
 no obligation to part with it ; there was no reason wliy they 
 should not have continued to possess it, had they so 
 chosen: all was voluntary: — " Why hast thou conceived 
 this thing in thine heart ? Thou hast not lied unto 
 men, but unto God." It was for the lie that they 
 were punished ; and not for doing as they thought 
 proper with their property. And how were they punish- 
 ed ? Did Peter strike them dead ? Hear the passage : — 
 " And Ananias hearing these words, fell down, and gave 
 up the ghost ; and great fear came on all them that heard 
 these things." I wish all liars would take warning by 
 this solemn judgment. 
 
 I would just say that those statements about persecu- 
 tion may be true, but they have nothing to do with the 
 point ; and I shall not therefore follow Lloyd Jones any 
 further in this matter. I will proceed to show the influence 
 of Christianity. I was observing, in my last speech, that 
 Christianity struck at the root of all superstition, and 
 wherever it prevailed, swept it away. The Apostle cast 
 out the spirit of divination from a young woman at 
 Philippi, (Acts xvii.) and did away with her wicked 
 gains. Elymas, the sorcerer, was proved, by a mild and 
 merciful judgment, to be an impostor Great numbers 
 of others were led to abandon their black and mischiev- 
 ous arts ; they burned their books, to the value of 
 50,000 pieces of silver. To such an extent did the 
 Gospel prevail, at the very commencement of its career ; 
 and to such an extent did it prove a blessing to the 
 world ! 
 
 Another eflfect of Christianity was, that wherever it 
 operated, it overturned the whole system of priestcraft. 
 Priestcraft was another of the greatest curses of the 
 nations of antiquity : the priests possessed great power 
 
m 
 
 over the people's minds, and ruled them with a rod of 
 iron. No nation that I ever heard of was without its 
 priests, and there was not a nation but was in some 
 measure enslaved by them. But how does the Gospel 
 operate ? It gives power to no set of men over the con- 
 sciences of others ; it does not form any number of men 
 into a class, and call them priests, but makes all men 
 priests, and puts all on a level. The Redeemer says — 
 " Call no man master upon earth ;" that is, submit to no 
 authority but Christ's. " Call no man father, for one is 
 your Father, which is in heaven, even God, and all ye are 
 brethren." Every man is called on to judge for himself, 
 of those things that are proposed to him, which is right. 
 " Prove all things, hold fast that which is good," says 
 the Apostle. Implicit belief is discouraged throughout 
 the New Testament; men are directed to examine, to 
 weigh, to determine upon conviction ; so to believe and 
 obey in their hearts as responsible only unto God. 
 Every man must stand or fall to God ; no man is allowed 
 to come in between me and God; no man is my priest; 
 no man can exert God's power, or do my work for me. 
 The New Testament teaches that all men must stand 
 alone on their own merits, and those of Christ Jesus, 
 their Judge and Saviour. 
 
 The first preachers were forbid to be lords over God's 
 heritage ; they were forbid to take the oversight of their 
 flocks, from motives of a love of powder or wealth ; they were 
 to help their brethren, not to oppress them ; and with a 
 ready mind to promote their proficiency in knowledge, in 
 faith, in lowliness, and joy. Christ is our pattern, the 
 j)attern of all Christian ministers, a pattern which we are 
 all commanded to follow ; and so far as we follow him, 
 so far are we genuine Christian ministers. All ministers 
 of the Gospel are Christian ministers just so far as they 
 make proficiency in the right knowledge and right prac- 
 tice of Christianity, as taught and exemplified by Jesus 
 Christ. But there was no priestcraft about him, or 
 about his Apostles : they were all simple, open-hearted 
 men : they went forth unarmed with (jarnal weapons, to 
 publish the truth, to spread the doctrines of universal 
 
charity, which were to regenerate and make all men 
 happy. The true Christian is a free man ; he stand.-* 
 erect and independent ; he is the boldest and the haj»- 
 ])iest man in the universe. 
 
 Again, wherever Christianity has operated, it has 
 made men peaceful. War was formerly the business of 
 the world. There were vast numbers of slaxes, before 
 Christianity came, who tilled the ground and did the 
 drudgery, and all the free men were soldiers. The 
 wamor's glory was the height of men's ambition. Then 
 j)atriotism was a savage, pretended love of country, whick 
 gratilied itself in extending their country's dominions by 
 tlie destruction of other nations. Christianity opposed 
 this system of war : it pronounced its blessings on the 
 peace-maker, and gave no encouragement whatever to 
 the wai-rior. It taught men that the only method by 
 which they ought to rule over each other was by means 
 of truth, and by means of charity ; and wherever it has 
 operated, and made men true Christians, it has caused 
 them to be enemies to war. The chief part even of the 
 professing Christians in our country are opposed to war. 
 If a man in the army is converted to Christianity, he 
 strives to leave it instantly. True Christians are not ibund 
 enlisting into the army or nav}^; they feel that war is 
 opposed to their principles; and they have established 
 peace societies for spreading the Christian principles of 
 peace throughout the world. More than one sect of Chris- 
 tians have disavowed the propriety or necessity of war under 
 any circumstances. The principles of peace are still pre- 
 vailing where the Gospel prevails, and they will prevail 
 yet more and more, and one of the great flood-gates of hu- 
 man wretchedness will be thus stopped up. INIankind will 
 in consequence be gainers in commerce, in freedom, and 
 in wealth, and in all the hqjpy fruits of peace. Thus, 
 wherever Christianity operates, it is producing peace on 
 earth, and good- will to men. Christianity has also 
 given us a glorious instance of a whole state where war 
 was excluded. William Penn, a Christian, founded 
 the state of Pennsylvania, in the midst of six savage 
 Indian nations. All other states in similar circumstances 
 
9G 
 
 had perjietiial war ; they held the unchristian principle 
 that war was necessary, and tliey practised it. Penn 
 would have no war; and in the first place, when he 
 entered into the midst of his people, he would not have 
 their land, until he had bought it, though the King of 
 England had given him it. He would have nothing as 
 the fruit of conquest. He founded a state there, and, 
 for more than seventy years, that state, composed of 
 Christians, subsisted without the help of one single in- 
 strument of war, or striking one blow. What was more 
 remarkable, God so protected them under those circum- 
 stances, that not a single Quaker was injured, except 
 one who was shot by mistake, when caiTving arms, to 
 kill wild beasts. Thus peacefully has Christianity oper- 
 ated, where it has been fairly tried ; and wherever it is 
 allowed to operate, war must come to an end. It points 
 us to a time when men shall beat their swords into 
 ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks ; when 
 nation shall not lift up sword against nation, nor learn 
 war any more. The day is fast approaching, when 
 widows shall no longer weep, and orphans shall not beg 
 their bread, because their husbands and fathers have 
 fallen on the field of battle; but when all men shall 
 enjoy peace, and quietness, and assurance for ever. 
 
 Mr. JONES:— 
 
 Let me first remark, relative to the observation made 
 by Mr. Barker, that I knew well that these parties, of 
 whom 1 have been speaking, and who persecuted, were 
 not Christians, — allow me to tell Mr. Barker, that if 
 either he or I had lived at the time, and had said so, we 
 should have paid the penalty of our lives. I do say I 
 am fully persuaded that they were Christians, that they 
 bad the Gospel for the ground-work of their persecu- 
 tions; and that if we had dared to tell them that they 
 had not, or were not Christians, he or I would have been 
 added to the list of martyrs. But Voltaire was a per- 
 secutor ! Oh, I wonder where Mr. Barker comes by all 
 his valuable information. Allow me to tell Mr. Barker, 
 that when the Catholics and Protestants were persecuting 
 
97 
 
 and utterly destroying eacli other in the Idngdom of 
 France, Voltaire, out of his own purse, built a colony 
 to keep lliem from each other. Point to a Christian that 
 has done as much ; and yet Mr. Barker says Voltaire was 
 a persecutor. When they burned young De la BaiTe for 
 being an infidel,and broke Calais on the wheel, Voltaire, by 
 his CvSsay on toleration, shook priestcraft to the foundation. 
 It is to Voltaire, and those like him, that we must look for 
 the freedom we now enjoy. Voltaire, he told you last night, 
 did not openly attack the Christian religion, but struck 
 in private. He durst not do any thing more, or he 
 would have shared the ftite of De la Barre. Is it not a 
 mockery to hold up a dagger before a man, and then 
 charge him with having worked privately ? Had he 
 been allowed to express an opinion, he would have done 
 so. He knocked the idols of bigotry upon the head, 
 and very politely bowed and nodded to them as they 
 tumbled to the gi'ound. 
 
 But the Christian religion, we are told, is extremely 
 plain ; so plain, that the wayfaring man, and he who 
 runs, may read. This is the first time I ever heard 
 of this discovery. What, I should ■ like to know, is 
 the cause of the difference, not only between wayfaring 
 men, and running men, but men who study ? How 
 comes it that Mr. Maguire and Mr. Gregg, in Dublin, 
 were meeting one another in discussion ? All are split 
 up into little sections, who each read the Bible differ- 
 ently. But the story of Ananias and Sapphira would 
 be a w^arning to liars; so it should. But who quoted 
 it in favour of persecution? Beza, as I stated to j^ou 
 before, cited that and other texts in support of his 
 doctrine. Bear that in mind ; that comes from a Chris- 
 tian writer, not from Mr. Jones. But Mr. Barker 
 says I told you that up to the eighth century, they 
 quoted texts in favour of persecution. I told you no such 
 thing. I told you they acted as religious men, and 
 persecuted. Beza was the only man that I spoke of 
 quoting them. And I tell you that Bogerman, who trans- 
 lated Beza's work, and was president of the Synod of 
 Dort, recommended it to the magistrates, and hisrecom- 
 
9S 
 
 mendation was acted on. But Ivljave no right to speak 
 of the Popes : Mr. Barker has nothing to do with the 
 Popes. 1 wish the rest of the world had had nothing to 
 do with tlie Popes. I am sorry that ]VIr. Barker cannot 
 destroy the connexion between persecuting Popery, per- 
 secuting Protestantism, and the Christian religion. 
 
 ]3ut then, these persons were mistaken relative to what 
 these passages of Scripture mean. Granting that this is 
 proved, iuy argument holds good, and it helps Mr. Barker 
 nothing, no more than his illustration about physic : for if a 
 child takes physic, and it kills him, it has produced a bad 
 efiect. I am thus giving every latitude in the argument ; 
 and I say, that my ground is established in opposition 
 to that of Mr. Barker, and that Christianity has been 
 proved to produce bad effects. He has yet to prove that it 
 is not producing bad effects now ; I will prove that it is. 
 But then, Beza was the only one who mistook it. Now, 
 my friends, I like to deal in facts. Only one man was mis- 
 taken; very well; let us see what his mistakes led to. 
 By a work called '^Thoughts on Toleration," published at 
 Edinburgh, in 1780, we find that the whole number of 
 persons massacred on account of religion, during the space 
 of 1400 years, amounts to — what do you think ? Up- 
 wards of 50 millions of human beings ! 
 
 I told Mr. Barker that he misrepresented my language 
 when he spoke of the followers of Calvin. I spoke of his 
 contemporaries; I mentioned Melancthon as one, and 
 (juoted his letters to prove, that though most benevolent 
 he did not discountenance these wicked proceedings. Mr. 
 Barker then went on to enumerate the different benefits 
 produced by the Christian religion ; and amongst the 
 rest, said it had overturned priestcraft. 1 wonder you 
 could contain yourselves when you heard that,— that you 
 did not laugh outright. Where ? In England, Ireland, 
 Spain, France, Austria, Russia P No. Where, where ? 
 In America ? — Noivhere. — Priestcraft is as rife in the 
 world now as ever it was. It does not assume such a 
 frightful form as before philosophy began to check it ; it 
 competed with philosophy as long as it could, but it is 
 now beginning to hide its diminished head. The text I 
 
99 
 
 • 
 have quoted from Mark tells you, that you are not to 
 examine the evidence, that you are to have no oppor- 
 tunity of deciding properly. Now this is something 
 like what Mr. Halliwell charges me with ; I wanted to 
 intimidate the umpire. Christ says, " If you believe mv 
 doctrines, you shall be saved ; if no"t, you shall bedamned." 
 Dare to come to any other conclusion than in iheiv favottr, 
 and you shall be ^damned. There is freedom,— there is 
 toleration, and liberty of mind ! Twist it as you will, put 
 what construction you will upon it, it stands as a sentence, 
 breathing the worst spirit of persecution, not in time 
 only, because that may be borne with, or may be escaped 
 from by death ; but the human being is hunted into, 
 and tortured through an endless and never-ceasing e/er/?i7y. 
 But Penn was a Christian ; as I told you last night, what 
 a corner have I driven Mr. Barker into ; he has to run 
 into the wilderness to Penn for a bit of Christianity ; but 
 let me tell him that Penn was driven out of England, 
 because he was not a Christian. 
 
 But before I go any further, I will speak of the 
 excursions of the Spaniards into South America, and 
 of the manner in which they propagated their religion. 
 Here, again, the cruelties practised were almost too 
 horrid to enumerate. Mr. Barker may well call my 
 speeches bloody speeches ; but I ask again, who 
 furnished that blood ? Who created the bloody records, 
 through which I am going ? Christians. And it is 
 because I detest such proceedings that I am exposing 
 them, in order that you may avoid them. " Forth they 
 went," says Howitt, " bearing on their banner the figure 
 of a large cross, and this inscription, ' Let us follow the 
 cross, for under this sign we shall conquer.' " But Chris- 
 tianity is doing away with wars : I wonder, again, you did 
 not laugh when Mr. Barker told you so. " What half 
 century has produced more wars than the last ? How- 
 many Waterloos do the annals of the earth reckon ?" 
 Yet we are told that it has done away with war. 
 " So powerfully," says Robertson, in his history, " were 
 Cortez and his followers animated with both these passions 
 (religion and avarice,) that, no less eager to plunder the 
 
100 
 
 opulent country whither they ^ers b'oiltld, than zealous 
 to propagate the Christian faith among its inhabitants, 
 they set out, not with the solicitude natural to men going 
 upon dangerous services, but with that confidence which 
 arises from security of success, and certainty of divine 
 protection." " In his march through the country, from 
 Cholula towards Mexico, six thousand people were but- 
 chered in cold blood ; two days were employed in hewing 
 down trembling wretches, too fearful to even raise a single 
 weapon against the murderers." " He ordered the great 
 temple to be cleared from the gore of his murdered victims, 
 and raised there the standard of the cross ; after giving 
 the Cholulans, as he did all the other people among whom 
 he stopped, some idea of the Christian religion !" Mr. 
 Howiit very justly remarks, " What idea had he of Chris- 
 tianity himself ?" To use the emphatic language of Mont- 
 gomery, 
 
 " The cross their standard, hut their faith the sword ; 
 
 " Their steps were graves ; o'er prostrate realms they trod j 
 
 " They worshipped Mammon, while they vowed to God." 
 
 These, then, were the men who went to plant the 
 cross among the heathen ; and what do we find ? We 
 find that Peru and Mexico, two great flourishing coun- 
 tries, were steeped in the blood of forty millions of 
 their sons ! They came, they saw, they conquered : 
 they enslaved, and they destroyed. They scarcely left 
 a soul to breathe. The attention of Europeans was then 
 turned to Africa. " They had seized on almost all 
 countries, but they could not seize on the torrid regions 
 of Africa. They could not seize the land, but they 
 could seize the people. They could not destroy them in 
 their own sultry clime, fatal to the white men; they 
 therefore determined to immolate them on the graves of 
 the already perished Americans." 
 
 I come now to your own proceedings. I will begin 
 with the history of the Protestant Church, and will 
 run over it as soon as I can, because the time is very 
 short. Cranmer's hands were stained with the blood 
 of several. He had a share in the condemnation of 
 John Lambert, and consented to the death of Ann 
 
101 
 
 Askew, who were burnt for denying the Corporeal Pre- 
 sence, as we find from Burnett's history. Joan Bocher, 
 in 1549, was executed through Cranmer's instrumen- 
 tality ; and about two years after, George Van Pare, 
 a Dutchman, was bunied in Smithfield, for saying that 
 Christ was not very God. Eleven Dutchmen, who were 
 Anabaptists, were condemned to the fire for heresy : 
 nine were banished, and two were burnt alive, in Smith- 
 field. In the year 1583, Copping and T hacker, two 
 Puritan ministers, were hanged for nonconformity. The 
 laity, if tliey published books against the prelacy, Iiad 
 their ears cut otf, their noses split, and were tortured in 
 various ways. 
 
 In the reign of Anne, dissenters were prohibited from 
 teaching schools, or being tutors in private families. T 
 now turn to the persecutions of the Puritans, in America, — 
 those people who, Mr. Barker says, did not persecute 
 at all ; but just allow me to tell you what they did in 
 England. Under the Commonwealth, when they had 
 power in their own hands, in the time of Cromwell, the 
 dissenters expelled from their livings no less than ten 
 thousand Church of England clergymen. Clarendon 
 and the bishops, in Charles the Second's reign, impri- 
 soned and murdered eight thousand dissenters, ruined 
 thousands of families, drove multitudes abroad, and 
 robbed them of from twelve to fourteen millions of pro- 
 perty. So much for the kind spirit existing then : we 
 will now follow them over to New England. It is a 
 disagreeable task to enter into these details; but I have set 
 it for myself, and I will faithfully perform it. In Boston, 
 in 1656, the Puritans passed a law to banish from the 
 colony the followers of Penn, whereby it was enacted, 
 that " whosoever of the inhabitants" should, directly 
 or indirectly, cause any of the Quakers to come into 
 that jurisdiction, he should forfeit one hundred pounds 
 to the country, and be committed to prison, there to 
 remain till the penalty should be satisfied ; and whoso- 
 ever should entertain them, knowing them to be so, shoukl 
 forfeit forty shillings to the country for every hour's enter- 
 tainment, and be committed to prison till the forfeiture 
 i2 
 
MQ 
 
 should be fully paid and satisfied. And, further, that 
 all and every of those people that should arise amongst 
 them there, should be dealt withal and suffer the like 
 ])unishment as the laws provided for those that came in ; 
 viz. that for the first ofience, if a male, one of his ears 
 should be cut off, and he be kept at work in the house of 
 coiTection till he should be sent away at his own charge. 
 For the second, the other ear, and be kept in the house 
 of correction as aforesaid. If a woman, then to be 
 severely whipped, and kept as aforesaid as well, for the 
 first; and for the second offence, to bexlealt withal as the 
 first. And for the third, he or she should have their 
 tongues bored through with an hot iron, and kept in the 
 house of correction close at work, till they be sent away 
 at their own charge." 
 
 There, what do you think of that as a specimen of 
 Puritan persecution, — the people who, according to Mr. 
 Barker, did not persecute! They were dissenters, who 
 had the Scriptures, and understood them. Extremely 
 good and kind-hearled people they must have been, when 
 all they did on behalf of religion was to cut off the ears 
 of the Friends, and bore their tongues through with hot 
 irons. And, in pursuance of the before-mentioned law, 
 '' one William Brend, and one William Leddra, were 
 committed to the house of correction at Boston, where 
 they were kept five days without food, and after that re- 
 ceived twenty blows each with a three-corded whip. The 
 next day Brend, who was an elderly man, was put in 
 irons, and tied neck and heels close together for sixteen 
 hours. The next morning the jailer took a pitched rope, 
 about an inch thick, and gave him twenty blows over the 
 back and arms, with as much force as he could, so that 
 the rope untwisted. But he fetched another thicker and 
 stronger, and gave him fourscore and seventeen more 
 blows, and threatened to give him as many more the next 
 morning. Brend had nothing on but a serge cassock 
 over his shirt, so that his back and arms were grievously 
 bruised, and the blood hung as in bags under his arms ; 
 S9 cruelly was his body mangled, that it was reduced 
 almost to a perfect jelly." 
 
103 
 
 Mr. BARKER:— 
 
 That individuals who profess Christianity, and are even 
 fiincere m their profession, may not understand the whole 
 of religion, is readily acknowledged. We have to mourn, 
 that the New Testament, to which they ought to appeal 
 for direction, is not more read and more attended to. But 
 the Gospel is not chargeable with the crimes of those who 
 neglect its teachings. We can only repeat the truth, that 
 where the New Testament is most read and best known, 
 persecution is there at its lowest ebb; where it is least 
 known and least regarded, persecution rages most violently. 
 The laws that have been already quoted were abrogated 
 a long time ago, through the influence of Christians who 
 paid more attention than their forefathers to the authority 
 of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and who were more 
 actuated by Christian principles. With respect to the 
 Spaniards in South America, the explanation that Lloyd 
 Jones has given of their conduct, in the quotation from 
 Montgomery, is perfectly satisfactory : they were wor- 
 shippers of Mammon, and only talked of God. Now, 
 as Christ said, " No man can serve two masters ; ye 
 cannot serve both God and Mammon ;" if men serve 
 Mammon, they are o])posed to God, and to the Christian 
 religion too ; and such men may well persecute. 
 
 But we are told that the infidel philosophers have done 
 away with persecution. The best writings, and the earliest 
 in favour of toleration, were by Christian authors who 
 lived before Voltaire. Locke wrote before, and better than 
 Voltaire; Voltaire borrowed from him his best arguments, 
 and added only abuse and blasphemy of his own. Jeremy 
 Taylor wrote his Liberty of Prophecying, long before 
 tliese infidel writers wrote their works. Tlie infidel 
 writers never ventured to express their thoughts publicly, 
 until Christians had prepared the way, and secured 
 toleration. With respect to Waterloo, and the gi'eat 
 numbers who have fallen in late wars, who does not 
 know that these wars originated in the schemes of the 
 infidel French philosophers ? The horrors of the French 
 revolution were nothing more than the Socialist system, 
 «iarri«d out to its proper length of obscenity, profligacy. 
 
104 
 
 impiety, and cruelty. As to the Spaniards in South Ame- 
 rica, it is very likely they never read the Gospel ; there is no 
 proof that they did ; if they had read it, and attended to 
 it, they would have learnt not to persecute even those 
 who might persecute them. 
 
 I will now proceed to state the hapi3y influence exerted 
 by Christianity wherever it has operated. Where are its 
 effects to be found ? I am asked. I answer, wherever it 
 has operated. But before I enter fully on this subject, I 
 will read you one passage from a work of Robert Owen, 
 to show you that war may spring from other principles 
 than from mistaken notions about Christianity. Robert 
 Owen makes no profession of Christianity, yet he expressly 
 enjoins the warlike system upon all his followers. When 
 speaking of the formation of communities, he says — 
 "Were all men trained to be rational, the art of war would 
 be rendered useless. While, however, any part of mankind 
 shall be taught that they form their own characters, and 
 continue to be trained from infancy to think ar.d to act 
 irrationally" 
 
 Mr. CoNNARD : — You must keep to the question. 
 
 Mr. Halliwell : — The interruption now comes from 
 Lloyd Jones's Chairman ; and Mr. Barker is called to 
 the question for citing from Robert Owen's works, to 
 prove that other parties encourage a warlike spirit besides 
 the parties whom Lloyd Jones chooses to call Christians. 
 Now, if argument can be fairly pursued at all, I think 
 that is a fair mode of arguing ; at least, it is in my j udg- 
 ment. I am quite willing that the matter should be 
 submitted to the umpire ; his decision will be final ; but 
 so far as my o])inion goes, I think the interruption was 
 uncalled for, and totally out of place. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — You had better withdraw it. Go on, 
 Mr. Barker. 
 
 Mr. Barker : — I was going to show that people can 
 practise war and use arms, from other principles than 
 from mistaken Christianity. He says — " So long as any 
 remain iiTational, even the most rational must, for their 
 personal security, learn the means of defence ; and every 
 community of sach rational characl*^rs, while surrounded 
 
105 
 
 by men who have been thus improperly taught, should 
 acqmre a knowledge of this destructive art, that they 
 may be enabled to over-rule the actions of inational 
 beings, and maintain the peace. To accomplish these 
 objects to the utmost jn'actical limit, and with the least 
 inconvenience, every male should be instructed how best 
 to defend, when attacked, the community to which he 
 belongs." 
 
 He then proceeds to require every man to be furnished 
 with and learn the use of fire arms and other arms, and 
 says that they must be taught also to practise and to 
 understand the more complicated military movements. 
 " The boys," says he, " will be taught to consider this art 
 as absolutely rendered necessary by the partial insanity of 
 some of their fellow creatures ; that its use is to restrain 
 the violence of such niadmen, to prevent the evil con- 
 sequences of the acts of the insane, and, if possible, 
 cure them of their disease :"* that is, bring us all, by 
 force of aims, to turn infidel Socialists. This is the 
 most wholesale system of war and intimidation I ever 
 heard of. 
 
 I would observe, that all those persecutions, and all 
 those wars that have been referred to Christianity, ori- 
 ginate in those lusts, as the Apostle James says, to which 
 men peld themselves, — the lust of fame, the lust of 
 wealth, and the lust of power, all of which Christianity 
 condemns and destroys. 
 
 Christianity, wherever it has operated, has also pro- 
 duced happy effects in domestic life. Women used to be 
 ill-treated and abused ; wives were bought and sold ; aiid 
 several were possessed by one man. Under the influence 
 of infidel principles, men would abandon their wives 
 without regret, would seduce their wives' sisters, and give 
 themselves up to all kinds of profligacy. Christianity, 
 wherever it was embraced, produced a complete change : 
 it taught a man to unite himself to one wife, and to love 
 h«r as his own flesh. Wherever it has prevailed, it has 
 
 • "Essays ou the Formation of the Human Character. By- 
 Robert Owen." Pages 47-48. 
 
106 
 
 produced similar effects on parents and children, and has 
 taught all who come under its influence, that they should 
 be one in affection and in interest, and should delight in 
 promoting each other's happiness. 
 
 Christianity has also taught men truth and integrity, 
 has taught them to act on principles of strict fidelity and 
 punctuality to their engagements ; and wherever we find 
 a true Christian, we find a man who, without an oath, 
 is firm to his word, and steady to his engagements. 
 
 Christianity was the first system that taught men to 
 provide for the poor. Before it came into the world, hos- 
 pitals for the sick and alms-houses for the poor were not 
 heard of; the poor were universally neglected ; priests, 
 philosophers, and governments, all neglected them. 
 
 In the renowned works of those ancient philosophers 
 that have done so much good, according to Lloyd J ones, 
 there is not a word of pity for the poor. I have read 
 Seneca and Cicero, the great philosophers of Rome, and 
 Epictetus and several others of the Greek philosophers, 
 but more of the Latin philosophers, and I do not find a 
 word in them about pity for the poor. All their 
 beneficence was an interchange of favours with those 
 that needed none. Christianity looked especially to the 
 poor ; it brought glad tidings to the poor and blessed 
 them. The poor who welcomed the truth were made 
 happy by its influence. The Christian churches, from 
 the beginning, provided for the poor : officeis were set 
 apart to look over and relieve the sick, the fatherless, the 
 widows, and the destitute. Up to this period, the Chris- 
 tian churches still maintain their poor ; the Wesleyans, 
 the New Connexion, and the Quakers especially main- 
 tain their poor, or see them supported. These are our 
 laws ; and wherever Christianity operates, it teaches every 
 man to make the poor man's interest his own. 
 
 Christianity has also had a happy effect upon our laws 
 and public institutions. Nothing was more common than 
 slavery, formerly : one man in Rome, that boasted seat of 
 philosophy and liberty, had no fewer than twenty thousand 
 slaves ; and in some of the states of Greece, the land of free- 
 dom, there were twenty slaves to one freeman. Christianity 
 
107 
 
 put it iuto the hearts of men to emancipate their slaves. 
 Documents exist which show that men, on receiving 
 Christianity, emancipated their slaves ; and assigned as 
 their reason, that the Gospel had taught them, that, as 
 they were all the children of one heavenly Father, and 
 were brethren in Christ, they ought not to l;old their 
 brethren in bondage. Christianity has abolished the 
 slave trade. When Christians first undertook the agita- 
 tion against the slave trade, tlie infidels said, '' Oh, let the 
 blacks alone ; the negroes are not men ; their minds are not 
 formed like ours;" the Christians contended that they were 
 of the same flesh and blood, and that they ought to be treated 
 like men, and the slave trade was accordingly abolished. 
 Wilberforce, and Clarkson, who is still living, wei'e the first 
 advocates of the injured slave, and the unwearied opponents 
 of the slave trade and of slaveiy generally, were Christians : 
 I do not say they were perfect, but they were infinitely 
 beyond what they would have been without Christianity. 
 The Christians of this country it was that petitioned 
 for the emancipation of the slaves ; and it was the public 
 opinion, impregnated with Christianity, that swept aside 
 that system of cruelty and injustice. And wherever 
 Christianity efleclually operates, it produces the same 
 efiect. It has not operated every where, it is true ; it has 
 not operated freely upon the infidels, for they do their 
 utmost to resist it : but wherever it does operate, — and it 
 operates extensively in spite of them, — it produces peace 
 on earth, and good-will to men. 
 
 I now proceed to show that it not only produces good, 
 but good of every kind : and that my enumeration of 
 good things may be as complete as possible, I will read 
 a list of things necessary to happiness, as given by the 
 Socialists themselves. It is from the Socialists' Bible, 
 and considering that it comes from men who pretend to 
 know nothing of God or heaven, and who look no higher 
 than the clouds, and no farther than the present hour, it 
 is a tolerably good list. We shall find that Chris- 
 tianity tends to put all these things deemed requisite to 
 human happiness, within our reach. The first requisite 
 here specified, is a good organization, physical, mental. 
 
108 
 
 and moral. Let a- man live as Christianity dictates; let 
 him be temperate and industrious, and his whole constitu- 
 tion will be benefitted, and his offspring are sure to come 
 into the world under the most favourable circumstances, 
 both with respect to their body and their mind, as well 
 as their moral faculties. 
 
 Another requisite is, the power to procure all that is ne- 
 cessary to life, and to preserve the whole system in health, 
 such as food, exercise, and knowledge. Now Christianity 
 has given that power, in a greater measure than ever it 
 was possessed previous to its promulgation, and has ex- 
 tended it to those who never possessed it before. Look at 
 New Zealand : there the power to provide food is limited 
 to the supply of a hundred thousand people. Look, on 
 the other hand, on Great Britain, an island of similar 
 extent : we have the power to raise food for at least ten 
 millions ; and let Christianity have its full influence, and 
 it will give us power to obtain food for the whole of 
 our population, and with far less labour, too, than is 
 necessary now. This is its tendency — to give plenty, 
 without excessive labour; and to this it will bring the 
 world. It also gives to men the means of knowledge. 
 When men become Christians, they become temperate 
 and economical, and, along with the means of procuring 
 books, this gives the opportunities of reading them, by 
 enabling them to do with fewer hours of labour. Thus, 
 Christianity furnishes thousands and tens of thousands 
 in Our own country, with the means of raising them- 
 selves above a state of ignorance, and acquiring a know- 
 ledge both of the things of this world, and of the things 
 pertaining to the world to come. 
 
 The next requisite to happiness is a good education 
 for the physical, moral, and intellectual powers. Chris- 
 tianity gives us this. The best system of education is to be 
 found amongst professing Christians. Children are often 
 reared by them, when none else could rear them. Amongst 
 them we find ten children raised, while not more than five, 
 or perhaps six at most, are reared amongst those who 
 pay no respect to Christianity. In religious bodies, it is 
 a principle to teach every child to read, and generally t© 
 
.W9 
 
 write well, so that they may he afterwards able both to 
 instruct themselves and to instruct others. 
 
 Another requisite is the inclination and the means to 
 promote the happiness of our fellow -beings. Christianity 
 begets this inclination in every one that comes under its 
 influences ; from first to last its principle is love, — love 
 is the fulfihnent of the whole Gospel. Wherever you 
 find a man who feels the power of the Gospel, you find one 
 who is wishful to communicate his blessedness to others. 
 As to the means of promoting the happiness of others, 
 it gives them also. It gives us power; it gives us influ- 
 ence in society ; it gives us knowledge, and in some cases 
 wealth : it blesses us every way, and fits us for blessing 
 others. Who are the men that are blessing the world at 
 this moment ? The followers of Jesus Christ. 
 
 The next requisite is the inclination and the means 
 of increasing the general stock of knowledge. The 
 inclination to obtain knowledge, is as much a part of the 
 Christian's disposition, as the inclination for doing good. 
 It make us wishful to understand all useful truth. And it 
 gives us the means of knowing. We can search the heavens, 
 we can go back to the past, we can penetrate the future, 
 and traverse the whole world. Who but Christians have 
 taken the lead in all the paths of science ? Our best poeL*<, 
 historians, and philosophers, have been Christians. Such 
 men as Bacon, Newton, Boyle, Locke, and Clarke, and 
 all the most eminent names in our history were Chris- 
 tians. The best men and the greatest writers of the present 
 day are still, in some measure, under the influence of 
 Christianity, and owe their dignity of mind to the influ- 
 -ence of Christian principle. Lancaster and Raikes, the 
 founders of improved Day-schools and Sunday-schools, 
 were Christians. Under the influence of Christianity, 
 knowledge has taken the wings of the wind, and is flying 
 to all the ends of the earth. And thanks be to God, we 
 look forward to the time, when our knowledge, which is 
 here scanty and imperfect, shall be perfected in heaven. 
 JHere we cannot know all ; knowledge is long, and life is 
 fihort. The infidel may attain a little knowledge, but on 
 his system he soon forgets it. We shall go on learning 
 
 K 
 
110 
 
 for ever, until we get to comprehend the infinite, and to 
 know even as we are known. I wish all my infidel fi-iends 
 could indulge in the same hope. 
 
 Another requisite is, the means of enjoying the best 
 society, and more particularly, of associating at pleasure 
 with those for whom v/e feel the most regard and the 
 greatest aflfection. So far as this is attainable, Christianity 
 puts it within our reach. Christianity makes good society, 
 by regenerating men, and uniting us together in bonds of 
 brotherly love. A truly Christian church is as one body; 
 and if Lloyd Jones had a heart to feel, and could be among 
 us, he would find that truly Christian society is a heaven 
 begun on earth. But in heaven we shall have the society 
 of good and wise men to perfection, and on earth we 
 have much pleasure resulting from this hope also. 
 
 The next requisite is, the means of travelling at 
 pleasure. Christianity does a little towards this; for it 
 encourages all laudable efforts to improve and multiply 
 the useful arts, and countenances every thing which can 
 promote the temporal as well as the spiritual interests of 
 men. 
 
 Another requisite is, to be delivered from superstition, 
 from supernatural fears, and from the fear of death. 
 Christianity entirely delivers us from superstition ; it 
 teaches us that there is one God, the governor of the 
 world, and that when we do his will, and trust to his 
 wisdom, we are safe. His eye is over us by day, and he 
 watches over us by night; and like as a father pities his 
 children, so he pities them that fear him : he has pro- 
 mised to guide us by his counsel, and then to receive us 
 to glory. We have no superstitions; and as to super- 
 natural fears, the true Christian fears nothing ; he does 
 not fear even infidels. He knows that God can overrule 
 all things for good. Though Voltaire set up a press to 
 publish infidel works, and crush the cause of Christ, even 
 that was overruled by God for good ; and now, through tlie 
 influence of Christianity, that very press is at the present 
 moment employed in printing Bibles, and is thus spread- 
 ing a knowledge of that truth which Voltaire intended to 
 have overthrown. Again : as to the fear of death, we aife 
 
m 
 
 delivered from that also. Uhlike the infidel, we have not 
 even to fear annihilation, — the death of feeling, the death 
 of hope, the death of consciousness. We dread no such 
 horrible event as a return lo nothingness. We live, and 
 we expect to live for ever, and we hope to live in 
 everlasting glory, where all our tears will be for ever 
 wiped away, and wliere we shall rejoice with all our 
 happy friends, in joy unspeakable and full of glory. 
 
 Mr. JONES:— 
 
 Mr. Barker first set out by speaking of the wars, the 
 murders, and the crimes to which I have alluded ; and 
 he tells you that Socialism had produced them, that it 
 was the Socialists who had done them. Well, I have no 
 objection that Mr. Barker should say so ; but the thing 
 a|)pear3 so extremely ridiculous, that I will leave it 
 there, for I am quite well aware that such vague asser- 
 tions as that will produce no effect on your minds. Sup- 
 pose Mr. Barker chooses to charge our society with being 
 guilty of all these crimes; I say that Christianity has done 
 it, and I will there leave it. 
 
 Mr. Halliwell : — You are mistaken ; Mr. Barker 
 did not say so ; he did not say Socialism, but Infidelity. 
 
 Mr. Jones: — Well, Infidelity; I thought I heard 
 Socialism mentioned. Then he finds fault with Robert 
 Owen for wishing his followers to arm. But that passage 
 answers itself It is merely necessary while they are 
 surrounded by madmen, who fought tlie battles of 
 Waterloo and other places, who fell by the sword in 
 Spain, and are doing it now in Canada. But infidelity 
 is complaiwed of by ^Ir. Barker, as having countenanced 
 many crimes ; men have run away with their sisters, and 
 done many bad things. I am sony that Mr. Barker forgot 
 to tell you that there were eighty thousand women in the 
 metropolis living on the wages of prostitution. Let tts 
 not throw the stone of opprobrium at our neighbours, 
 unless we ai*e aware that we have no glass windows of onr 
 own. 
 
 But no party, he says, ever made provision for the 
 poor until Christianity did it. Mr. Barker has read 
 
in 
 
 Gicero, Seneca, and I don't know how many of the 
 ancient philosophers ; but he must have read them with 
 very queer eyes. Did he ever read of agrarian laws ? If 
 he has, he must have read of a provision made for the 
 poor by the division of conquered lands. I wonder he 
 has not read with a little more exactness. 
 
 But Christianity has destroyed slavery. Now, let us 
 try that question. I like to deal in facts, not in imagina- 
 tions ; as Sam Weller says, " it werges a little on the 
 poetical." If Christianity destroyed slavery. Christian 
 slave-holders compelled us to give twenty millions of 
 money first. What does George Thompson tell us ? 
 That houses of worship, in the southern states, are endowed 
 with slaves, who are let out at so much a day ; and he 
 says they are the worst used of all the slaves in America, 
 because those who hire them out whip as much work 
 out of them as they can, and then send them back again, 
 to be hired to the next bidder. Mr. Barker, has 
 Christianity destroyed slavery there ? A Methodist con- 
 ference was held in Cincinnati in 1836; the Rev. Dr. 
 Bangs, in a letter to the .Vew York Journal of Commerce, 
 said — '^ I rejoice to see so much good temper manifested 
 on a question so exciting ; and I hope it may terminate 
 in peace. Abolition, as it is now technically called, has 
 few advocates in conference ; and it will be condemned 
 by a very strong vote." So it was : one hundred and 
 twenty-three Methodist ministers voted against it, and. 
 only fourteen for it. But I will come home, and ask 
 Mr. Barker, has Christianity destroyed white slavery in 
 the factories ? No. There it exists, palpable and real; 
 and we may view numbers of our fellow creatures dwind- 
 ling into deformity, and pining into old age, before, by 
 rights, they should have aiTived at maturity. This we 
 see around us ; and it has been stated, as the result of an 
 inquiry into the circumstances of the population of the 
 West Riding of Yorkshire, and Lancashire, that there 
 are five hundred thousand people subsisting upon two- 
 pence farthing a day. But let us follow these Christians 
 to the South Sea Islands. I would tell Mr. Barker that 
 Horton James, who subscribed to a very large amount 
 
113 
 
 to the schemes of the Methodist missionaries, followed 
 ihem out to these islands. He says that the population 
 who, in the days of Captain Cook, were healthy and. 
 numerous, are dwindled to almost nothing; and'although 
 horses are plentii'ul, he saw the Methodist minister seated 
 on the shoulders of four black men, his fellow Christians, 
 and probably, his fellow-communicants on th? Sunday. 
 Now this is on authority, and good authority, — not the 
 authority of the Methodist minister, but of a gentleman 
 who was favourable to the scheme, and who had subscribed 
 to a large amount of money towards it. 
 
 But he says, if 1 had a heart to feel, I should be glad 
 of the practical benefits of religion. A thing must appear 
 lovely to me, before I can embrace i"t or love it. Chris- 
 tianity has never yet assumed that form in this country. 
 Let it acquire the quality of love, and I will be one of 
 the first, if I conceive it to be lovely, to embrace it. But 
 when I see it as I have dej)icted it to you, (and I have 
 given you authority for every statement I have made,) I 
 cannot love it, I cannot embrace it. Show me your 
 works by your laith, and I will show you my faith by my 
 works. It is not to vague declarations and statements 
 that I refer ; but to things which you see and know. 
 Christianity, we are told, has destroyed sorcery and 
 witchcraft. It is not fond of witches now ; but a hun- 
 dred years ago it very much adhered to them ; and one 
 of the greatest luminaries of the Christian bench, Judge 
 Hale, executed a number of old women at Bury St. 
 Edmnods. But the spread of knowledge has done away 
 with that. Christianity hugged th& delusion to her 
 bosom as long as she could ; she had her own Witch 
 of Endor for an example ; but philosophy tore it from 
 her grasp, or she would have been hugging it to her 
 bosom at this day. 
 
 Oh, but you have Voltaire's printing press. I wish 
 you luck with it; Voltaire did good with it while he had 
 it ; but there are hundreds at work now. There is tolera- 
 tion now, but not perfect toleration. I received word 
 from Leamington, last night, that one of our Socialist 
 uiissionaries had been obliged to fly through the windovr of 
 k2 
 
114 
 
 the room where he was lecturing. I happened to be 
 looking over the works of John Wesley, the other day, 
 and 1 found that he and a man named Taylor were 
 pelted out of Sheffield ; and that at Wednesbury he was 
 dragged through the streets, his clothes torn, and his 
 person abased. Very well : now, one would have thought 
 that John Wesley was a very meek man. So he was ; 
 and what a pity it is that ail the Christians existing at 
 the lime were not bound in one bond of brotherhood. 
 But before the dirt was well rubbed off his coat, — before 
 his wounds were healed, he turned round, and wrote 
 against his Catholic fellow-subjects; the Anti-Catholic 
 Association found in him a tool to work their purposes. 
 He wi'ote a letter concerning the principles of the Roman 
 Catholics, and in delence of the Anti-Catholic Associa- 
 tion ; and the only discrepancy between the spirit breathed 
 there and that of John Knox, is, that John Wesley could 
 not raise the same number of sanguinary followers as Knox 
 did. John Wesley had the spirit of persecution within him ; 
 and his followers have it, so far as they can show it. For in 
 1829, — and I am now coming home, — I saw their petition 
 in the porch of their chapel door, Oldham-street, Man- 
 chester, superintended by the chapel servants, — a petition 
 against the liberties of their Catholic fellow-subjects. 
 
 Mr. Barker, to be sure, is himself a complete per- 
 sonification of charity, there is no doubt of that ; a 
 i^irit of benevolence breathes through all he has to say. 
 Now, my friends, listen. Mr. Barker published " A few 
 Hints on various Subjects ;" and to the word " unobjec- 
 tionable" he gives this explanation : — " Christianity is 
 unobjectionable, that is true ; and it is the only system 
 of which so much can be truly said. It is not in Persia 
 nor in China, at Athens or at Rome, that aught worthy 
 of comparison with the Gospel can be found. Zoroaster 
 and Confucius, the philosophers of Greece and Italy, 
 must bow the knee to Jesus. As for those pretended wise 
 men who of late have appeared in England, France, and 
 Italy, from Herbert down to that nasty thing Carlile, 
 they stand as far below him as does hell below heaven." 
 
 There is a specimen of that pure spirit of beuevo- 
 
115 
 
 lence, charity, and kindly feeling for the mistakes of our 
 fellow-creatures, — ''that nasty thing Carlile !" He 
 says we are unprincipled men, governed by lust. There 
 is the " charihj that thinketh no evil.'' Speaking of 
 Voltaire he says — " One of the biggest and most abomi- 
 nable liars that ever lived." There is charity again ; how 
 it breathes through all he has to say ! Mr. Barker, it is a 
 mockery ; you have not this charity. It was not exhibited 
 in the first century, nor the second. I have tracked you 
 from that time down to the present day, and now, out of 
 your own moulh I condemn you. 
 
 It is very well to vaunt of this when you come before 
 the pubhc ; but it is in its assertion and embodiment in 
 conduct that we are to look for principle : principle 
 abstracted from action is not worth a pin's head. Shovr 
 me your principles when in action, and I will say 
 they are good if your actions are good. But while 
 your actions are what I have described, I say your 
 principles are a nonentity, a mockery. I have pointed 
 out to you that the ston(;s of your huge fabric are cemented 
 together by blood. You have given texts out of the 
 Scripture, and have refen'ed to things without a date, but 
 have given no proofs. The texts lay within the covers of 
 an old book, but have no existence in reality, no effect 
 on practice. It ii with principle embodied in human 
 conduct that T have to deal. 
 
 I have a few minutes more to speak. I would say, 
 that although Mr. Halliwell might consider Mr. Barker 
 right, when attempting to prove that other systems had 
 done evil besides Christianity, I say that that has nothing 
 10 do with the question. Mahomedanism may have done 
 evil; other systems may have done evil; but it is Chris- 
 tianity that we are talking about to night. After the 
 discussion is finished, I will meet him on our principles 
 if he likes. But he says that we dread a return to nothing- 
 ness. I tell Mr. Barker that we do not know what lies 
 entombed in eternity, — when we depart from this world, 
 what awaits us ; but this we know, that whatever there 
 may be in another world, whatever description of Being 
 may exist in eternity, if we have lived the life of good 
 
116 
 
 citizens, — been good parents, good husbands, good bro- 
 thers, and good sons, I have too good an opinion of the 
 Divinity to suppose that he will damn me because I do 
 not believe in some dark dogma which I cannot under- 
 stand. 
 
 This, then, is my religion, — Do good to every man, — 
 love every man, — place yourselves in such a position, that 
 every man may love you : do this, and then upon your 
 death-bed you may rest yourselves secure in the hands of 
 that wise Power which has brought you into existence, and 
 which will take you out. 1 am afraid of nothing myself: I 
 stand before the world as one desirous to injure no man, 
 whatever opprobrium may be cast upon me. I may be 
 told that I am actuated by lust; I tell you that I will 
 brave your prejudices to do good; and in the hour of 
 death I shall throw myself, with the fullest reliance, on 
 the treatment I shall receive from that Being into whose 
 hands I shall fall. I dread nothing, 1 fear nothing; I 
 love every one, and in that I find security whenever I 
 may go, or wherever I may go, from hence. 
 
 Mr. BARKER:— 
 
 I would urge all present to read the New Testament 
 for themselves. What Llo3'd Jones has said, that he has 
 confined himself to what was done by Christians, or, as 
 he ought to have expressed it, by parties who called them- 
 selves Christians, is true. He has done just so: all his 
 arguments refer to that one point: he has not said a 
 word about Christianity as taught in the New Testament, 
 though we agreed to make that book our only standard, 
 I may say, that had I only known Christianity from 
 what he has stated of it, or had I only studied it as I 
 found it imperfectly exhibited in the characters or writings 
 of some professing Christians, I too could not have loved 
 it. Or if I had only read what infidels have said about 
 it, instead of reading, the Scriptures themselves, I too 
 might have yielded to infidelity. Indeed, there was a 
 lime when I looked at Christianity as it is misrepresented 
 by infidels and false pretenders to Christianity, and I 
 had almost turned infidel myself; but, thank God, I,, 
 
117 
 
 went to the fountain head ; 1 read the New Testament; 
 r looked on Christianity as unfolded there, in the ex- 
 amples and doctrine of its first teachers, and I found it 
 to be— what I still find it to be— THE TRUTH. The 
 New Testament has truth without any mixture of en'or 
 for its contents ; it makes us wise, it teaches us to do 
 good; this is its sole end and tendency, and whoever 
 yields to its teachings, it makes holy and useful, — happy 
 for time, and happy for eternity. I am not answerable 
 for you ; but I wish you well, and I would have you, 
 when the business of this meeting is over, to sit down to 
 a careful and rigid examination of the New Testament. 
 If you do that once or twice in a proper manner, you will 
 be enlightened and directed; your souls will be struck 
 with the purity, and tenderness, and simplicity of the 
 Gospel system ; and unless your hearts are set against 
 the truth, you will be convinced in your own consciences, 
 that the religion of Christ is from God. I hope you will 
 thus examine the subject, and I pray that God's blessing 
 may rest on you all. 
 
 One passage has been repeatedly quoted by Lloyd 
 Jones ; I mean, that " charity thinketh no evil." This, 
 of course, does not refer to those thoughts and judgments 
 about things over which we have no control ; charity does 
 not hinder men from thinking that falsehood is false- 
 hood. The simple meaning is, that charity plans or 
 purposeth no evil : that would be sin ; but there is no 
 sin in thinking things to be what they are, and in speak- 
 ing of them accordingly. I feel thankful that in this 
 sense, I think no evil ; I purpose no evil to any one ; 
 charity does not puq^ose evil. 
 
 Allusion has been made to my pamphlet. The meet- 
 ing may see that that is an illustration of what I stated in 
 a former speech, that when we come into the school of 
 Christ, we do not learn every lesson in a day. Have I 
 made use of any such expressions in this discussion with 
 Lloyd Jones ? 1 thank God, Christianity has taught 
 me my duty better and better every year, and it is still 
 my wish to leave the things that are behind, and to go ou 
 to those that are before. Before I fell under the influence 
 
118 
 
 of the Gospel, I was a savage, as my father, here present; 
 can testify : I hope I have not spoken as a savage to-night. 
 The Gospel has softened my temper, and the power of 
 the Gospel to produce this change in all who yield to- its 
 influences, is most abundant. 
 
 But it is said that there are 80,000 prostitutes in 
 London. But is it Christianity that has sent them there ? 
 Are they persons who read the Scriptures and practise 
 them, that have made them or sent them thither ? 
 I will tell you who have probably sent them thither. 
 Rousseau, the great infidel Socialist, had five children, 
 and he exposed them all in the street, leaving them un- 
 protected to the contamination of the world, and some of 
 them might become prostitutes, and go to London. 
 An infidel in my neighbourhood had four children bom 
 to him about the same time, by four different young 
 women, to none of whom he was married ; and some of 
 these seduced and injured creatures might go to London. 
 Another infidel and Socialist, of whom I lately heard, 
 seduced his wife's sister, and abandoned his wife, and they 
 might become prostitutes and go to London. Many of these 
 abandoned characters may have come from infidel France, 
 or from families where the Bible is not read. Christianity 
 teaches purity ; it does not lead any astray, but recovers 
 such as have wandered from the right path. It is to the 
 filthy working of infidel and licentious principles that we 
 are to trace the prevalence of prostitution. 
 
 With respect to what Lloyd Jones stated about white 
 slaves, it is because the influence of Christianity does 
 not prevail as it ought throughout the country, that these 
 evils exist; the spirit and love of Christ would sweep 
 them all away. The Gospel has done much for thousands 
 already ; it has done much for every heart that has 
 opened itself to receive it; and if we all receive it, it will 
 make us a nation of free, happy, intelligent, and philoso- 
 phical beings, too; it will make us happy in time, and give 
 us a well-grounded confidence of happiness for eternity. 
 White slaveiy is not caused by the Gospel. My poor 
 friends, working men, I would impress upon you the 
 necessity of searching diligently what the New Testa- 
 
119 
 
 ment teaches: read it attentively, and practise it, and I 
 will be bound that you will find out the path to happiness. 
 It will not give you happiness in your sins ; it will re- 
 quire you to leave them. That is the great difficulty it 
 has to labour against : it cannot make people happy unless 
 they become good. But be good, be willing to try to 
 obey its precepts, and it will make you happy without 
 fail. And it is the only thing that will make you happy. 
 Government will never help you ; it can do nothing 
 for you, unless you help yourselves by embracing Christia- 
 nity Socialism will not help you; all that the Socialists 
 even propose to do is to form you into a community, 
 and furnish you with animal and sensual indulgences, 
 and they can never do even this ; and even if they could, 
 it would not make you happy. But Christianity will make 
 you happy every way. Give yourselves to religion, and 
 that will make you your own reformers, the framers of 
 your own happiness, and in some respects your own 
 governors. Lloyd Jones has quoted a hundred (he might 
 have quoted a thousand) dreadful histories to frighten you 
 from religion, but none of them had any connection with 
 the Gospel ; the Gospel would have prevented all such 
 cruelties, if its precepts had been practised. 
 
 As to his libels on the Christianity community, his 
 assertions that we are all bloody men together, &c., I 
 can only say, tliat I wish he knew us better : but I do 
 feel gratified by the reflection, that these slanders have 
 beeli uttered in a neighbourhood where 300,000 people 
 know them to be lies, — direct and palpable imtruths. 
 
 With respect to the press, I would not persecute one 
 infidel man on earth ; infidels shall have all the power 
 they can get, but where they have one printing press in 
 their service, we have twenty. We have printing presses 
 employed in the advancement of religion in every part 
 of the country ; and our associations for the spread of the 
 Gospel are rapidly increasing. We are publishing the 
 truth in more than a hundred languages ; and we ar<j 
 forming plans to supply with good books every nation on 
 the face of the earth. And we shall go on and prosper in 
 our schemes. Infidels cannot stop us. The sei-pent that 
 
120 
 
 bites our heels only makes us run the faster : and the 
 temporary movements of the corrupting systems of infidel- 
 ity, will only give fresh ardour to our zeal, and make us 
 labour the harder, till we have converted the last soul to 
 God. Never, until then, will they stay our progress. 
 We were born to conquer the world ; the world is the 
 heritage of Christ, and he will vindicate his right, by 
 bringing all men to a knowledge and belief of the truth. 
 
 I would once more press on every individual the neces- 
 ^hy of examining the subject for himself. Rehgion is 
 every thing, to man. Allow not yourselves to be robbed 
 or cheated of this treasure. Blot out Christianity, and the 
 sun and moon and stars of the moral world, will be 
 darkened forever. Do away with Christianity,and you stop 
 up the fountain of living waters, and dry up the only 
 stream that can refresh the fainting and perishing sons of 
 men. Blot out rehgion, and you will have done for the 
 moral, world just what you would do for the natural 
 world, if you could blot out and annul the first great laws 
 of nature : all would be darkness and disorder ; earth 
 would be a chaos, and every living thing would die. But 
 let religion spread its light and influence, — let the know- 
 ledge of God be universally made to prevail, and light, 
 and happiness, and freedom, and plenty, and heaven will 
 be the })ortion of mankind. I glory in the Gospel, and 
 am prepared to defend it against all the infidels in the 
 world. The only arguments that can be brought against 
 it are those we have heard in this place ; and e\^n they 
 are not against the Gospel, for the}^ all go to prove hovr 
 much need we have of the Gospel, to amend men's hearts 
 and to refonn their lives. Lloyd Jones's long and dismal 
 dissertations show the need we have to learn and practise 
 it more and more ; and I hope soon, either while I livy 
 on earth, or when safely fixed in heaven, to see the world 
 happy under the influence of universal. Christian benevo- 
 knce. 
 
 I leave these remarks with you. As to what may be 
 advanced after I have sat down, I shall not have an oppor- 
 lunity of replying to it to-night; but it may be necessary 
 for ma to give a lecture at a future period, and if I caw 
 
121 
 
 liave this room, I will do it next Saturday evening ; in 
 oi'der to set the people right as to a number of infidel falla- 
 cies that may have imposed upon the minds of unthink- 
 ing individuals. At present, I would say, let any indi- 
 vidual who can find fault in the Gospel, come forward and 
 declare it ; and I will answer him : but there is not one 
 in the universe that can do it. Whatever faults exist in 
 connexion with religion, belong to the men who profess 
 it, and not to religion. You may find many faults in 
 me; I find them myself, but Christianity is not to blame 
 for my faults. Christianity teaches me to acknowledge and 
 correct them. Christianity is a pure system, full of 
 benevolence, — benevolence that is universal in it extent, 
 which takes in every man, seeking the greatest happiness 
 of the whole human race, and that gives effect to its ardent 
 longings for their welfai'e, not in mere \^ords, but in 
 vigorous and ceaseless efforts, and in liberal and costl}- 
 sacrifices for the world's regeneration and salvation. It 
 is a system full of blessings, both for the bodies and the 
 souls of men. Its tendency is to bless all mankind, and 
 to bless them in every way. It softens down the asperi- 
 ties of governments, and improves the institutions of 
 the country. There is not a bad institution in the land 
 that the Gospel does not condemn ; not a good institu- 
 tion, that the Gospel does not support. There is not a 
 bad man, that the Gospel is not adapted to make good, 
 nor a good man, that the Gospel does not make better ; 
 there is not an evil under which man labours, but what 
 the Gospel removes, not a blessing that man can desire, 
 but the Gospel gives him ; there is not an obstacle to his 
 hopes or enjoyment of happiness, but the Gospel has the 
 power to remove. Like its author, it is Almighty, and 
 can save all, and save to the very uttermost. It is the 
 loveliest offspring of heaven, and the best friend of man. 
 In the truth and excellence of its moral principles, in the 
 power of its doctrines, and in the irresistible nature of 
 its evidence, and the happy effects which it produces, it 
 is like to God that gave it. It comes from heaven, and 
 it leads to heaven. It brings down heaven into the hearts 
 of those who receive it, and it lifts up those who are 
 
 L 
 
122 
 
 faithful to its teachings to the heathen of heavens, for 
 ever. i" ri:; bri9i7i /; ■■•; 
 
 However much men may fee'j Jenraged against the 
 Gospel, no man can say a word against it, without being 
 either a mistaken man, or the maker and utterer of a lie. 
 It stands on a rock ; the floods may roll, and the winds 
 may blow against it, but it can never be shaken. It has 
 a thousand advocates abler than I, and thousands more 
 are coming up, year after year, and its own character and 
 influence are greater advocates still. "We may perish, 
 but the Gospel remaineth ; we are but flesh, and all flesh 
 is grass, and the goodliness of man is but as the flower 
 of the field. The grass withereth, and the flower fadeth, 
 but the word of the Lord endureth for ever : and this is 
 the Word which by the Gospel is preached to you."* It 
 is firmer than the pillars of heaven, and it shall spread 
 and triumph when its enemies are " silent in darkness/' 
 Even now it is spreading east, and west, and north, and 
 south; it is pervading all lands; and extending its influ- 
 ence through all ranks. And though a black picture may 
 be drawn of it by its calumniators, — though some men's 
 eyes may, in consequence, see nothing in religion but 
 darkness and gloom, men will not be blinded for ever. 
 Let them tear away the veil that obstructs the light ; let 
 them examine the truth for themselves, and it will com- 
 mend itself to their hearts. Let them come into the 
 world where Christianity, true Christianity, operates, and 
 they will find that it is a world of light and order; that 
 though its disciples are still imperfect, we are nevertheless 
 advancing; that all sects are advancing in the path 
 of piety and truth, increasing in benevolence, in works 
 of charity, and in happiness ; and they will see reason to 
 believe that the day will soon come, when, through the 
 influence of the Gospel, the last remnant of darkness and 
 misery shall have passed away. O yes ; the day shall at 
 length come, when the last tear shall be dried from man's 
 eyes ; when the last fear or doubt that agitates the guilty, 
 or doubting, or infidel mind, shall have ceased to afflict 
 and torment; and when every man, renewed by the reli- 
 
 * 1 Peter i. last verses^ 
 
153 
 
 gion of Christ, shall iknow himself a child of God, aiad 
 feel himself to be a friend and brother of every man in. 
 the universe ; when every one shall esteem it his privilege 
 to extend his blessings to others, and, like his Master, shall 
 go about doing good, and shall feel, as his Master felt, 
 that it is more blessed to give than to receive. I lovef 
 the Gospel more and more, and I am persuaded that 
 every man wlio, with a thoughtful and candid mind, 
 examines it, will find it altogether lovely. Badness of 
 heart, blindness of understanding, or corruptness of prac- 
 tice, may cause men to become reprobate and undiscern- 
 ing, and an undiscerning mind may cause a man to be 
 unable to see that the Gospel is good, or to relish its 
 excellencies ; but let a man give up all in his temper 
 and conduct which is not excellent, let him abandon his 
 evil passions and wicked habits, and in(piire into the 
 evidences of the truth for himself, and he shall know the 
 doctrine whether it be of God ; he shall have evidence that it 
 comes from God, and experience will teach him, at the 
 least, that it leads to God. 
 
 triMr. JONES:— 
 
 < Friends, — I shall briefly notice the remarks made by 
 Mr. Barker during his last address. He stated, at the 
 commencement, that the stories I read to you had, no 
 connexion at all with the Christian religion. Now, my 
 friends, bear this in mind, that in the transactions I have 
 enumerated and laid before you, in giving you the details 
 which I have given you, I have not mentioned any prac- 
 tices but those which were the result of religious concep- 
 tions. I did not connect them with the Testament ; your 
 writers in favour of persecution, of whom I have spoken, 
 have done that forme. Therefore, if they did not belong 
 to the Christian religion, you must blame your own 
 Christians that gave that connection ; but I do" maintain 
 that they do belong to it. Mr. Barker promises that 
 Christianity will reform the world, and lead all men to 
 heaven. Well, I am extremely glad that we are coming 
 to that ; it has been endeavouring to reform the world for 
 1839 years, but the job is to be done yet ; and I wish Mr. 
 Barker every success in his attempt to accomplish it. 
 
m 
 
 But, says Mr. Barker, if you blot out religion, then 
 there is an end of eveiy thing that is good. My friends, 
 we are not desirous to blot out religion. False principles, 
 under whatever name they may exist — religious, moral, or 
 political — should be blotted out ; and it is our determina- 
 tion to blot them out; and however you may apprehend evil 
 from this course, if there is anything false in that religion, 
 it shall be struck down. It reminds me of the tale ol the 
 Roman soldier in Egypt, who determined to destroy the 
 image the people were in the habit of worshipping. The 
 people gathered round, and told him that if he touched the 
 image, the sun would be darkened, all order in society- 
 would be upset, and that it would completely derange the 
 order of nature. However the soldier went up and gave 
 it a blow; but the sun was not blackened, the stars did 
 not fall, it did not make the least difference. He gave 
 it another blow, and another, until he destroyed it, when 
 the people were sui-prised to find that every thing went on 
 as before. In this way, false principles, wherever they 
 exist in the room of true ones, must be struck down, 
 whatever consequences may be apprehended from it. 
 
 Having answered the last argument of Mr. Barker — 
 the sermon I have nothing to do with — I say, in sum- 
 ming up, you have literally fulfilled the Scripture of 
 Matthew — " Think not that I am come to send peace 
 upon the earth ; I come not to send peace, but a sword." 
 This, my friends, you have literally fulfilled. Peace 
 was not brought upon the earth, but a sword ; and that 
 sword, I have told you, in the destruction of fifty mil- 
 lions of your fellow-creatures, you have wielded with 
 most frightful celerity. Oh, but Mr. Barker says, the 
 remarks in his pamphlet, relative to us being unprincipled 
 and lustful men, were written a long time ago. 
 
 Mr. Barker : — I did not mean the remarks in refer- 
 ence to you. Those are the truth, and charity rejoiceth 
 in the truth. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — Oh, does it ? I am glad to hear it, my 
 friend. He told us that a man murdered his wife some- 
 where, but he did not tell us where. I gave you autho- 
 rity for every thing I stated ; and on the other side, we 
 have these little, gossiping tales, about the Socialist* 
 
125 
 
 having done this, and the infidels the other; hut 1 pay 
 no attention to such nonsense as that. To sum up all, us 
 I told you, at the commencement of this debate, I look 
 upon the majority of any society that ever existed as an 
 honest majority. I do believe that however the world 
 may have gone astray, they went astray upon principle, 
 they went astray believing that they were going right, and 
 that, whatever errors or mistakes, moral, religious, or })o- 
 litical, may have taken place among men, causing them 
 10 differ, they have differed honestly and sincerely, where- 
 ever bodies of men were concerned. I refer to the prin- 
 ciples of human nature ; T pity the ignorance that caused 
 the mistake, aud would do my utmost, at any moment, to 
 remove it. 
 
 In detailing the circumstances which I have detailed, 
 in running over the instances of persecution, which I say 
 are human mistakes, I wish not to awaken any unplea- 
 sant reminiscences ; I do not wish to call up any ill feel- 
 ing, or unpleasant sensation, in the mind of any individual 
 in the room. I merely do it to refer these evils to the 
 false principles from which they have arisen, and to re- 
 medy it, so as these mistakes may not again occur. I 
 tell you, then, that all these mistakes are the conse([uences 
 of a false conception of human nature; that your convic- 
 tions are not subject to your will ; but that you are forced 
 or impelled to believe that which appears to be true, to 
 reject that which appears to be false, and to remain in a 
 state of doubt as to the truth or falsehood of that of which 
 you have no positive evidence. This, then, is the manner 
 in which the human mind works ; that constitution of the 
 human mind is the work of the Creator; and to imagine 
 that he will punish you because you have acted in accord- 
 ance with the nature he has given you, is to imagine that 
 he will act in the most barbarous and horrible manner, T 
 tell you, friends, in all cases you should give each other 
 credit for sincerity in seeking after the truth ; in every 
 case, instead of persecuting, you should give each other 
 all the assistance you can, with charity and good-will, in 
 your efforts to discover the truth wherever it may exist. 
 Those are the principles on which we ground the system of 
 l2 
 
126 
 
 which I speak, — human love and human forbearance ; for 
 so long as you go on inflicting injury on others because 
 they differ from you in opinion, so long you are not acting 
 religiously, you are not acting in accordance with the will 
 of the Creator, nor in accordance with true religion. 
 
 I have pointed out, as I told you, your mistakes ; but 
 I do not condemn you for what you have done. I do 
 not, I tell Mr. Barker again, and I tell you all, I do not 
 condemn you; I do not wish that any injury should be 
 inflicted upon you; but I merely bring these statements 
 before you, that your minds may revert back to the cause 
 of the mistakes, and do away with it. This is all ; this is 
 the head and front of our offending ; and for this we have 
 called down upon us the opposition and enmity of those who 
 call themselves religious. We have no other object, but to 
 serve you physically, intellectually, and morally, to lead 
 you to see those mistakes which have rendered you unable 
 to afford that assistance which human beings, in whatever 
 countiy they may exist, should render to each other. All 
 hav^e the same wants, the same hopes, and the same neces- 
 sities ; there is a human heart in every bosom ; every 
 man is but a duplicate of every other man ; and we owe 
 each other a mutual duty of respect, reverence, and 
 love. Every man, being liable to go astray, should look 
 with charity on the mistakes of others; if we do so, 
 whether our opinions are orthodox or heterodox, we shall 
 do right. This is our religion : we are not the mur- 
 derers that you suppose, — not the " unprincipled and 
 lustful men" that we are represented to be. We grieve 
 for the world. It is stated that Christ sweat a bloody 
 sweat on the Mount of Calvary; and ever since that time 
 humanity has sweat a bloody sweat in consequence of 
 its mistakes. Enlighten each other's minds, love and 
 help each other, and whatever you be. Christians, infiidels, 
 or Socialists, I believe you may hope for peace and hap- 
 piness in another world. But if your conduct be as I 
 have pictured it, whether you call yourselv^es Christians or 
 not, you never can arrive at a state of bliss, unless the 
 state of your mind fit you to enter on it. And being 
 placed in a garden by the Creator, let us enjoy it as 
 
127 
 
 much as we can ; and then we shall be better prepared 
 to enter into the enjoyment of another. I believe too 
 well of the Regulator of the Universe, to think that he 
 would punish nie as a man, whatever speculative mistakes 
 I may fall into. 
 
 I thank you for your attentive hearing. I have no 
 objection to Mr. Barker lecturing here next Saturday 
 night, and every night for a week to come, if he chooses ; 
 for, however he may lecture, if the truth be forwarded, my 
 end is answered. I care not whether Christianity, or 
 Socialism, or infidelity, or any other creed, be triumphant ; 
 if the human family is made happy, my end will be 
 answered. 
 
 Mr. CoNKARD : — The last address of each of the dis- 
 putants has rendered it unnecessary that I should take up 
 time in addressing you. I will merely say, very briefly, 
 that I admire your conduct on both evenings. I have to 
 thank Mr. Halliwell for his impartial conduct to me and 
 my friend, Mr. Jones; I have also to thank Mr. Barker, 
 for the kind manner in which he has met Mr, Jones. I 
 hope that when you go from here, and when you have 
 occasion to meet each other, though you may differ in 
 opinion on many subjects, you will treat your differ- 
 ences in that friendly n^ianner in which Mr. Jones and 
 Mr. Barker have discussed this question. I wish you all 
 good night ; and I trust that when you all meet again, or 
 any portion of you, there will be the same brotherly 
 affection, the same peaceful conduct manifested by all, 
 as v/e have seen on this occasion. 
 
 Mr. Halliwell :— On behalf of the committee of 
 Mr. Barker, and on my own behalf, I desire to return 
 vou. our very sincere thanks for the kindness with which 
 you have heard Mr. Barker. T believe that with regard 
 to this discussion, it may be said, that each party has 
 had perfect fair-play, and that they have met on mutual 
 and equal terms. Mr. Barker, in his concluding speech, 
 announced that he should give a lecture : he announced 
 
128 
 
 il partly because, from the arrangements of the two niglits' 
 discussion, Mr. Jones would have one speech more than 
 himself. 
 
 Mr. Jones :-^No. 
 
 Mr. Halliwell : — That may be a mistake ; but as 
 Mr. Jones has adhered to the agreement, to adduce no 
 argument in his last speech, I have advised my friend 
 Mr. Barker that it is unnecessary, at present, for him to 
 lecture. However, if he should think it necessary, he 
 will announce his intention by public placard. 
 
 I think I may congratulate the friends of Mr. Barker 
 on the subject of Mr. Barker's readiness to meet Mr. 
 Jones, and his perfect willingness to enter into the whole 
 argument. On that subject, nothing more need be re- 
 marked. I may also observe, that this discussion has 
 been taken down by a short-hand writer, for the purpose 
 of its publication ; and as Mr. Jones emphatically said — 
 " I make these statements against Christianity, that they 
 may go the length and breadth of the land ;" / emphati- 
 cally say, that Christian principles will be coupled with 
 those statements, and will also go the length and breadth 
 of the land, and will produce an influence which I hope 
 will not only be ftstonishing, but gratifying to us all. The 
 j>rice of the publication will be announced by public 
 placard, and it will be issued at as early a period as 
 possible. You will then be enabled to judge calmly on 
 the subject, to see who has urged proper and who has 
 urged improper arguments, when you come to read 
 patiently, and study the matter fully. Until that time, 
 I need not ask you to reserve your judgment; for all 
 wise and sensible men judge after due consideration. I 
 wish not to boast — I wish none of our friends to boast 
 of this discussion ; but I do say that there has been 
 perfect fairplay ; each has made the best of his subject ; 
 and I hope, when the publication is produced, you will 
 all have the opportunity of judging who has had the 
 better of the argument. 
 
 On behalf of Mr. Barker's friends I return you our 
 sincere thanks ; and would remind all parties who may 
 have any claim on the committees, that all demands will 
 
129 
 
 be paid in a day or two. J have to express my regret 
 on one subject, that, last evening, the room was filled in 
 such a manner that we could not accommodate all who had 
 tickets. My friend Connard and I feel very sorry that 
 they did not get in last night ; and we should have 
 proposed that the money should be returned them ; but 
 on counting the tickets over, we found that only 90() 
 tickets had been received ; so that a good number, 50 or 
 60, must have come in without their tickets being 
 received by the door-keepers. Consequently, we are not 
 in a position to return the money. If we are ever 
 engaged in any future discussion, I hope this will be a 
 lesson to us all, so that there may be no dissatisfaction on 
 one side or the other. Having made these remarks, I 
 will conclude by again returning you thanks, and hojung 
 that all will be benefited by this Discussion. 
 
 Mr. Jones: — Previous to the meeting separating, as 
 an acknowledgment that the Chairmen have done their 
 duty impartially, I beg to propose a vote of thanks to 
 them. 
 
 Mr. Barker : — I beg leave to second that. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — Those who approve of it will signify 
 their approval in the usual manner. 
 
 The resolution was then carried unanimously. 
 
 Mr. Barker : I beg to move a vote of thanks to the 
 Umpire, for his kindness in presiding over the present 
 meeting. 
 
 Mr. Jones : — I beg to second that. 
 
 The motion being earned, the meeting peaceably 
 separated. 
 
130 
 
 « 
 
 ffoirfwiir' 
 
 bus gai^rrBqrn 
 
 APPENDIX^'- -^ 
 
 .'"orn eifiJ aoAW 
 [By Mr. Lloyd JoNE$>^3ao'> ?fiv/ fr ^sonir 
 
 Many of the readers of the Discussion no\Y stibmittea tji 
 the public will no doubt be aware of the nature of its 
 origin ; but there will also be many not acquainted there- 
 with. I shall therefore take the liberty of stating the 
 facts of the case, — why it took place, and the cause of 
 delay in its publication. jrov/jo- 
 
 About two years since a member of our society^ .Mr/ 
 C.J. Haslam, published a small pamphlet entitled "'The 
 Necessity of a (_ i ange," which by some means fell into the 
 hands of Joseph ] S-rker, who, considering himself a giant in 
 the cause of Chi anity, and having a desire, it might be, 
 to make himself p. alar, wrote a letter to the Editor of tha 
 " New Moral Wcr id," in which he stated that Mr. Has- 
 lam, in his pamphlet, had charged the Christian religion 
 with producing all the misery and crime that afflict our 
 country. In reply to this, iNIr. Haslam published a tract 
 called " The Evils of Private Property, being an Answer 
 to a Letter by the Rev. Joseph Barker," in which I find, 
 the following passage : — 
 
 " You must, sir, have a wonderfully deep and vigorous under- 
 standing. I challenge you to point out a single passage in the 
 * Necessity of a Change,' in which such a statement is made, or 
 where even the shadow of such an inference can he drawn. You 
 say that it is insinuated in my pamphlet from heginning to end. 
 Without any disrespect, sir, and without any impropriety of feel- 
 ing, I flatly deny it. It is a foul calumny." 
 
 The reverend gentleman being thus detected in a 
 faux pas, became silent, and no more was heard of him, 
 until September 1st, when a No, oC his "JEyangelical 
 
131 
 
 Reformer" made its appearance, containing an articie 
 headed "The Socialists," in which he reiterates a challenge 
 which had been previously given to, and declined by, Mr. 
 Haslam, accompanying such reiteration with the lollow- 
 ing language : 
 
 "They (the Socialists) are an ill- designing and unprincipled set 
 of men ;" and " they are persons that ai'e governed by selfishness, 
 by passion, and by lust." " They are such as have resisted truth 
 till they are given over to a reprobate mind." 
 
 When this most scun'ilous article had made its appear- 
 ance, it was considered that some means should be adopted 
 to put a stoj:) to a man's proceedings, who it appeared had 
 set at naught both truth and decency. The Secretary of 
 the Salford District Committee was instructed to write to 
 him to know what aiTangements he would wish to have 
 made for a Discussion, and also to inform him that I was 
 appointed to meet him. This led to a long coiTespondence 
 between Mr. Barker and myself, during which he mani- 
 fested every desire to wriggle out of the matter,-^ and 
 succeeded- for a time ; but our friends in Oldham shortly 
 afterwards issued a placard which so pointedly charged 
 him with a want of truth and courage, that he was forced 
 to come forward, and accordingly arrangements were made 
 in the presence of a number of the friends of both parties 
 for holding a discussion. }- 
 
 It will be observed by a reference to the question, that 
 it contains two propositions ; the first of which is founded 
 on the old calumny which had been so often denied, and 
 which Mr. Barker had never attempted to establish, 
 although he was the originator of it.t Mr. Barker 
 seemed determined to fight this man " in buckram," and 
 on no other condition would he come to a discussion ; I 
 
 * All who have read the correspondence as published in No. 
 11 to 20 of the " Evangelical Reformer," and noticed his long and 
 dishonest remarks, especially on my last letter, which he has 
 chopped up to destroy its effect, camiot fail to recognize the sly 
 hand of the cunning Priest. 
 
 f For question and conditions see page 4 of the Report. 
 
 I I have repeatedly, both in public and in private, taunted 
 Mr. B. with this calumny, and although he has gone on writing, 
 he haa never attempted to give the passage containing it. — L. J. 
 
132 
 
 therefore allowed it to stand, knowing that he could gain 
 nothing by it but an exposure of his trickery and deceit. 
 The discussion of the second proposition occupied the 
 two nights of February 19th and 20th; and I think I 
 may safel}'- say that there were not two opinions as to the 
 signal failure of Joseph Barker. 
 
 Here, then, was a discussion undertaken in consequence 
 of the most unfair attacks, ending in the complete over- 
 throw of the aggi'essor. What, then, was he to do to 
 prevent himself from sinking ? There was nothing which 
 he could do but take advantage of his right to correct the 
 press, and he did this so effectually, that it is impossible 
 to tell the original, it is so bedaubed with the honest 
 man's after thoughts. 
 
 When I saw the havock he was making of ihe Reporter's 
 manuscript, I objected to it. I told him repeatedly, in 
 the presence of Mr. Halliwell, his Chairman, that if the 
 Reporter had omitted any argument which he had used, 
 or had left any sentence unfinished, as will sometimes 
 happen, he should have every liberty to add the one and 
 mend the other ; in fact, that I would -allow him anything 
 fair and honorable ; but that I could not submit to a 
 total re-writing of the speeches, in which the original was 
 almost entirely lost in the mass that was superadded. 
 
 The press was therefore stopped. Mr. Barker then, 
 through the medium of his " Evangelical Reformer," 
 told the public that I objected to his correcting his 
 speeches ; he also went to the Reporter, and procured a 
 note which stated that the liberty he took was allowable 
 on such occasions ;* and likewise said that I had sent him 
 to the Reporter for such opinion, and that nevertheless I 
 would not allow the printmg to go on. Having no other 
 way of meeting the attack which Mr. Barker was weekly 
 making upon me, through his little paper, I placarded 
 the town of Oldham, where the discussion took place. 
 In this placard I gave the facts of the case, so far as they 
 had transpired, with a specimen of his corrections. It 
 
 • Those who perceive the nature of the additions, as I have 
 pointed them out, must decide this question. — L. J. 
 
133 
 
 was a passage from one of bis speeches, which in the 
 Reporter's manuscri])t consisted of 104 words, but in 
 Mr. Barker's corrected manuscript was swelled out 
 into 271 — being an addition of 167 words. I denied, 
 also, that I had sent him to the Reporter for an opinion. 
 He re-asserted that I had done so, and said I did so in the 
 presence of Geo. Gave, the printer. Believing Mr. Cave 
 to be a man who would nc-t lend himself to serve the base 
 purpose of Mr. Barker, I went to him, and asked him 
 if he had any recollection of such an affair, and from 
 him received the following note : — 
 
 " I certainly have no recollection of Mr. Lloyd Jones ever 
 referring Mr. Barker to the Reporter, for an opinion, in my 
 presence. Geo. Cave." 
 
 So much, then, for Mr. Barker's statements. But to go 
 through all the falsehoods and misrepresentations of ^Ir. 
 B., would take me more time ihan I am willing to bestow 
 on such an unworthy subject. 
 
 It must be recollected that all this dispute was about 
 Mr. B.'s speeches of the first night, and during its con- 
 tinuance he, held in his possession the Reporter's manu- 
 script of the second night, and would not allow me to 
 look at it. I called at the ])rinters' repeatedly for it, but 
 to no purpose; the answer invariably was, that Mr. 
 Barker had not yet returned it. At last I called upon 
 Mr. Halliwell, his Chairman, to know what Mr. B. 
 intended to do. ]\Ir. Halliwell expressed a desire to have 
 the thing amicably an-anged, and told me he had expected 
 Mr. B. would come to town that morning, biU that he }>ad 
 just received a note excusir^g his attendance, which he 
 would read for me. Upon this he drew from his pocket 
 the note, and read it ; and while he was doing so, I, seeing 
 my name mentioned in the postscript, took the liberty of 
 looking over it, and read as follows : — 
 
 " I wish you would call at Cave and Sever's, and at the Reporter's, 
 and caution them against letting Lloyd Jones have the manu- 
 script." 
 
 When Mr. Halliwell had jBnished reading Mr. B.'s 
 excuse for not coming, he folded up the note to return it 
 to his pocket, I then said to him — " What is that about 
 
 M 
 
inei'" *• Oh, nothing/* said lis ; *' it is only a little private 
 communication." "But," I replied, " I have read it ; 
 
 and I ask you as a man, have you bean to do what it 
 recommends ?" " No," said he, " I pledge you my ho- 
 nor as a man, I have not been, neither do I intend to go." 
 
 Here, then, was an evident design upon the part of 
 Mr. B. to use this secret and dishonest means to prevent 
 nie from seeing the manuscript which he held in his pos- 
 session for seven weeks ; could there be stronger evidence 
 of his unfairness ? . ^.Jij; o.. 
 
 The reverend gentleman then made a proposal for each 
 one to be left to publish his ov\ti side, or if I thought pro- 
 ])er, entirely to suppress the Report ; neither of which J 
 would agree to, and was at last (that the ])ub]ic might 
 liave the Report) forced to allow of all his alterations and 
 additions. 
 
 Having yielded the above point rather than disappoint 
 the public, I determined to take the best means at niy 
 disposal, to give to them as clear a view of the matter as 
 ]>ossible, so that they might be fully aware as to which of 
 the two was instrumental in causing the delay of tlie pnb- 
 lication. Mr. Barker said, in one of his " Reformers," 
 that I '' was ashamed to let my speeches appear in print, 
 as they v»ould not, there, have a confident, look an'd a 
 clenched fist to set them off;" — and tliis, too, he had the 
 boldness to say, when I was standing out for the Report 
 as the Reporter had furnished it, and when the only point 
 in dispute was as to whether he should re-write his 
 speeches and make the monstrous alterations which he 
 insisted on making ! To prove, then, that I was not 
 ashamed of my speeches, and that I threw no bar in the 
 way of publication, but that Mr. Barker really was 
 asliamed of his speeches, I shall merely state, that there 
 .are not twenty words altered in my speeches, and not a 
 single word added; while Mr. Barker has made so many 
 alterations, that it is totally impossible to point them out ; 
 his speeches are like the old gentleman's cotton stockings, 
 that were so darned with worslxl, that it vA'as a puzzle to tell 
 whether they were originally worsted or cotton. And as 
 to additions, I have gone to tlie trouble of counting the 
 words as they stand in tlie Reporter's manuscript, and a» 
 
135 
 
 tiiey have been added to in the printed speeches ; and I 
 tind the account stands thus between the Reporter and 
 Mr. Barker, for the first night alone : — 
 
 Mr. B.'s first speech, as given by the Reporter, contains. . '2000 
 To which Mr. B. has added 140:i 
 
 Making a total of 3403 
 
 Mr. B.'s second speech, as given by the Reporter 1!HC> 
 
 To which Mr. B. has added ..../... lo5<) 
 
 Making a total of 3o0.5 
 
 IkJr. B.'s third speech, as given by the Reporter 22*27 
 
 To which Ml*. B. has added .' lo77 
 
 Making a total of 3804 
 
 Mr. B.'s fourth and last speech, as given by the Reporter, 
 
 short speech on both sides 82-i 
 
 To which Mr. Barker has added 12K3 
 
 Making a total of 2107 
 
 Total of words for the whole night, a§ given bv the Reporter 6997 
 Total added by Mr. Barker ." .0822 
 
 Total 12819 
 
 which, as vvill be perceived, is nearly double the original 
 number of words, and vet Mr. Barker, "heaven save the 
 mark," calls himself HONEST ! 
 
 But we have not done with Mr. B. yet. When i was 
 in Sheffield discussing with Mr. Palli^^ter, I was cliarged 
 with keeping back the Report of the Discussion, where- 
 n\y<m I stated to the meeting that the only cause of delay 
 was, that Mr. B. had insisted upon re-u-riting his 
 speeches, and that I was not prepared to allow it. This 
 statement was connnunicated to Mr. Barker by some on^' 
 of his vSheffield friends, upon which he wrote to the " Shef- 
 field Tndepeudent" a most shamefully false letter, in 
 which, after stating that it was agreed by the Committee 
 
 '** that each disputant should coiTect his own speeches so 
 'fts to bring them as near as possible to the state in whicli 
 
 •riiey were delivered," he goes on to say — 
 
136 
 
 "This, both Lloyd Jones and I did; and Lloyd Jones made 
 ^five times more alterations in his speeches as reported (or what 
 amounts to the same thing, ffot the Reporter to make them) than I 
 did in mine. T, however, made no objection." 
 
 Made no objection ! " Good easy man." How unfor- 
 tunate it is for Mr. Barker that he should introduce a 
 third party, as, whenever he introduces a respectable 
 witness, I always catch him " fibbing." I sent the paper 
 containing this letter to the Reporter, and received from 
 him the following note : — 
 
 " 39, Greekstreet, Chorlton-on-Medlock, 
 Manchester, 23rd July, 1 839. 
 
 " Sib, — I have read with some surprise a statement in Mr. 
 Barker's letter, published in a Sheffield paper, four months since, 
 but which I had not before seen, to the effect that you " got the 
 Reporter to make alterations" in your speeches. What alterations 
 you and Mr. Baiker might make after the manuscript left my 
 hands, I have nothing to do with ; but in justice to myself, I must 
 denyiiaving made any, previous to that, by the suggestion of 
 either side; indeed, T never exchanged a word with you, or any 
 one else, on the subject till after the completion of the manuscript. 
 One other expression of Mr. B.*s, as he has introduced my name 
 into his letter, I must protest against. He says, " Where sentence« 
 had been half-reported," &c. There were none such: but this is 
 a matter of little importance, as no one who knows me will believe 
 it. — I am, Sir, yours obediently, J. Davison." 
 
 « To Mr. L.'joues." 
 
 In the same letter that contains the above outrage upon 
 truth, Mr. Barker further says — 
 
 " Lloyd Jones, however, objected to my alterations, and set 
 them aside, and made a few corrections himself instead, and so 
 got my first speech and part of another set up, corrected by him." 
 
 I appeal to the printers as to the correctness of this state- 
 ment. They know it is utterly false, so does Mr. Barkei' 
 himself; and I cannot help feeling the most unfeigned 
 ])ity for the man who has been forced to resort to such 
 meanness. 
 
 In reading over my speeches, the public should be 
 aware that I have neither added to, nor diminished from, 
 them. There are many things in them which, no 
 doubt, might be better said, and which, if I had availed 
 myself of the unwarrantable liberty taken by Mr. B., 
 would have read much better; but " what I have said 
 
137 
 
 I've said ;" aiid I wish not to substitute any thing else 
 for it. I have not even given my historical references, 
 knowing that the man who had caUunniated me wilh.out 
 any ground whatever, vvoukl, if I liad given the least 
 opportunity, have made a great deal of it. In argument 
 and illustration I might, if I thought this the projier 
 place, add much. In short, I did not during the two 
 nights say half of that which I hitended to say, especially 
 on the last night; but the time being past, I con-^ider 
 this no fair place to re-commence the discussion. 
 
 I see nothing at all in Mr. Barker's speeches but such 
 matter as w^e generally meet with in the common run ot 
 Metliodi>;t sermons, and I can only say of them, as the 
 mathematician said of Thomson's '' Seasons," " They are 
 very fine, but they prove nothing." Mr. B.'s continual 
 cry was, that the atrocities which I enumerated were not 
 to he»found in the New Testament ; and the attempt of 
 his Chairman to stop me on the second night deserves a 
 passing notice It sliould be remembered that " the in- 
 fluence of Christianity" was the subject; and that " nothing 
 should be taken for Christianity but the system of Christ 
 as laid down in the New Testament," was one of the con- 
 ditions. Now all who read the Discussion cannot fail to 
 observe that I took the doctrine of Christ as a ground- 
 work from the New Testament, as found in ^lark xvi. 
 from verse 14 to the end of the chapter, and traced the 
 influence of that doctrine in the history of the Christuiu 
 church ; and in doing so, any man who is not bliitded 
 f'ither by prejudice or ignorance, must observe that I had 
 not departed from the question. 
 
 I must also, in justice to the people of Oldham, 
 observe that although- 1 have travelled much in this part 
 of the country, and contended much on the unpopular 
 side of public questions, I have never met the same 
 candid and honourable treatment which I did at the 
 hands of the Oldham people. 
 
 Salford, August \2tk, J839. 
 
 LLOYD JONES. 
 
 a 2 
 
138 
 
 [By th^ R^v. J. Barker.] 
 Remarks on Lloyd Jones's Appendix. 
 
 Lloyd Jones haa frequently endeavoured to turn the 
 minds of the public from the great point in dispute, 
 namely, the influence of true Christianity, and to turn 
 the discussion into a personal quan-el. 1 have carefully 
 refused to follow him in this useless course of proceed- 
 ing. My desire has always been to keep the attention 
 of the public to the one great question, the influence of 
 Christianity, and from this one point I hope the readers 
 of this Report will not allow their attention to be diverted. 
 The question in dispute is — not whether I have acted 
 fairly in the discussion, but whether the practice of 
 genuine Christianity, as taught in the New Testament, 
 tends to produce good or evil. This is the question. 
 Suppose all Lloyd Jones says against me to be true, it 
 amounts to nothing; I am not Christianity. I do not 
 care much whether you take my character from Lloyd 
 Jones or from those that know me better, and that are 
 less partial j udges ; but do not let Lloyd Jones succeed in 
 his endeavours to turn your attention from the proper 
 subject to myself. 
 
 But my readers must not suppose that I plead guilty 
 to Lloyd Joneses charges. There is not one of them 
 which is not wholly false, as the friends who are 
 acquainted with .the history of this discussion well know. 
 To correct all Lloyd Jones's mis-statements would take 
 up too much room ; it would leave me no space for 
 the great question under discussion. I shall therefore say 
 little in my own defence ; that I may be the more at 
 liberty to say something on the proper question. 
 
 Lloyd Jones's principal endeavour is to persuade the 
 public that I have acted unfairly in correcting the report 
 of my speeches. A few words may put this matter in a 
 proper light. 
 
 \. It is true that I re-wrote my Jirst night's speeches ; 
 
139 
 
 but it is not true that I wrote new speeches. And what 
 would it matter if I had written them ten times over, so 
 long as I made no unfair alterations in them ? My rea- 
 son for re-writing the speeches was to save trouble to 
 the printers and myself: I found it difficult to make 
 the necessary corrections on the Reporter's small slips of 
 paper without rendering some passages illegible. The 
 second night's speeches I did not re-write at all, as Lloyd 
 Jones knows. 
 
 2. What Lloyd Jones says about me adding to my 
 speeches, and aUering them, is partly true and partly 
 fLilse, but all deceitful. 
 
 1. It is not true that I have altered the sense of any 
 pass.ige in my speeches. When Lloyd Jones objected to 
 my corrections, I got the Re])orter to examine them at 
 Lloyd Jones's request ; and when he had done so, he 
 wrote me the following note for Lloyd Jones's satis- 
 faction : — 
 
 " Pool-fold, Thursday afternoon. 
 " Sir,— At Mr. Barker's request, I have carefully revised his 
 re-written manuscript, and, although considerably alteration i» 
 made in the exprcsadun and structure of several sentences, I 
 cannot find that he has introduced any new fact or argument. 
 The liberty he has taken appears to be within the limits of what 
 is usually allowed on such occasions: of course I suppose you 
 have the same privilege. 
 
 " Yours obediently, 
 
 "J. Davisok," (Reporter.) 
 
 T may add, that after this I blotted out many of my 
 corrections, the most important part of them in fact, to 
 induce Lloyd Jones to allow the printers to proceed. So 
 far from exceeding my right, I gave up a great part of 
 it, to prevent the public from being deprived of the 
 report of the discussion. 
 
 2. But have I added as many words as Lloyd Jones 
 says I have ? Let any one count the words in the 
 Reporter's copy, and read the speeches as printed in this 
 publication, and they will see for themselves that I have 
 done no such thing. Again, I speak almost twice as 
 fast as Lloyd Jones, as those who have heard us both 
 speak are aware. If then I have nearly doubled the size 
 
140 
 
 oi'my speeches, they will be at least three times as long in 
 print as Lloyd Jones's. Just count the pages, and se& 
 how they stand. Mine will be found on an average to 
 be only about one third larger than his. With any one 
 acquainted with the two speakers, this will be proof suffi- 
 cient, that instead of doubling the size of my speeches, 
 I have not given them in full. 
 
 3. I have oidy added one passage to the Reporter's 
 copy in all the speeches ; and that thai passage had been 
 delivered by me and omitted by the Reporter, is proved 
 by the iact, that Lloyd Jones had answered it in his fol- 
 lowing speech. It was not till I found that Lloyd 
 Jones had answered the passage, that I recollected having 
 delivered it. 
 
 4. If there be another passage added, let Lloyd Jones 
 point it out. If there be a passage in which I have 
 altered the sense, let Lloyd Jones point it out. 
 
 •5. But why did I add any words at all ? I answer, to do 
 justice to the public and to the subject. In some cases, 
 the beginning of a sentence was left out in the Report, in 
 others the end. Som.elimes the first part of an argument 
 was given, and the latter part omitted. My historical 
 quotations were reported so incorrectly, that the sense was 
 lost or perverted ; and in other cases, just about one half, 
 OT hardly one half, of the quotations was given. Now 
 Lloyd Jones gave the books out of w'hich he read the 
 chief part of his speeches to the Re])orter, and the 
 Reporter transcribed the ])assages as Lloyd Jones had 
 marked them. But I did not give my books to the 
 Reporter, supposing that he had taken all down. 1 f the 
 Reporter had not corrected his report of Lloyd Jones's 
 speeches by the books Lloyd Jones put into his hands, 
 Lloyd Jones would have had to add three words or 
 more where I have added one. This is what I mean 
 by the Reporter correcting Lloyd Jones's speeches, and 
 that it was thus done, both the Reporter and Lloyd Jones 
 know and will acknowledge. But as I had not got the 
 Reporter to correct and supply my quotations, I did it 
 myself, and that I did it foirly, and kept within the limits 
 usually allowed on such occasions, the Reporter's own 
 note as given above will testify. 
 
141 
 
 I will just give a sample of the imperfect manner in 
 which my speeches were reported, and of the necessity 
 of some corrections. I read over in one of my speeches 
 the following passage, viz. '* I have read the objections 
 of Porphyry, of Celsus, of Julian, of Hobbes, of Toland, 
 of Tindai, of Blount, of Woolston, of Hume, of Gib- 
 bon, of Burdon, of Paine, of Voltaire, of Rousseau, of 
 Diderot, of Helvetius, of Carlile, of Taylor, of Owen, 
 of Lloyd Jones, and of Haslam, and they are all alike. 
 Arguments there are none, but false accusations, bold 
 and extravagant statements, without truth or foundation, 
 there are in abundance." In this ])as3age there are 
 twenty-one names, nine of which the Reporter had omit- 
 ted, together with about one half of the other words in 
 the sentence. I could fill many pages with instances of 
 similar omissions and imperfections in the Report, which 
 Lloyd Jones himself could not dispute ; and what could 
 I do in such cases, but as 1 have, partially, done, — con'ect 
 the Report, and restore my speeches in some measure to 
 the state in which they were delivered ? It is true, that 
 in their most imperfect form my speeches contained a 
 sufficient answer to Lloyd Jones's- speeches ; still I felt 
 desirous of doing the subject justice. I did not, however, 
 think it proper to add new arguments, or write new 
 speeches; if I had done that, I might have made my 
 speeches ten times as long as they are. 
 
 But •' G. Cave does not recollect hearing Lloyd Jones 
 refer me to the Reporter." T answer, I never said G. 
 Cave did recollect any such thing. It is possible G. Cave 
 did not hear Lloyd Jones refer me to the Reporter, and it 
 is very possible that he might hear it and forget. That 
 Lloyd Jones did refer the matter to the Reporter, is 
 nevertheless true ; and it is also true that any reasonable 
 man would have been content with the Reporter's de- 
 cision. 
 
 As to the account which Lloyd .Tones has given in his 
 Appendix, of the origin and history of the Discussion, I 
 can only say that it is not true, as those who are ac- 
 quainted with the facts of the case will perceive. 1. It was 
 not I that was the aggressor, but the Socialists. .3. It 
 
142 
 
 was C.J. Haslam that first wrote a letter in the " New 
 Moral World," and not I, as Lloyd Jones insinuates. 
 The first letter I wrote was in answer to C. J. Haslam. 
 3. As to what Lloyd Jones says about my desire to make 
 myself popular, &c. they are charges that I cannot 
 answer; but one may reasonably ask how Lloyd Jones 
 becomes acquainted with men's motives ? Would he have 
 people to believe that he can read the secrets of men's 
 hearts ? 
 
 As to whether Lloyd Jones has " overthrown" me, I 
 suppose the public will wish to judge for themselves on that 
 point. But if Lloyd Jones thinks he has " overthrown" 
 me, he surely will not so far imitate the folly of hi5 
 favourite Voltaire, as to imaj^ine that he has overthrown 
 Christianity also. If I have not triumphed in the debate, 
 the fault is certainly in me, and not in the cause I had 
 in hand. 
 
 I am glad there is one point in which I can agree with 
 Lloyd Jones, viz. the good behaviour of the people who 
 attended the Discussion. They did indeed conduct them- 
 selves in a very honourable manner. I the more cheer- 
 fully subscribe to Lloyd Jones's statement on this subject, 
 because the principal part of the persons present were 
 professed disciples of that religion which Lloyd Jones so 
 bitterly assailed as the great cause of all intolerance. The 
 patience, the candour, and the forbearance of the people, 
 did of themselves furnish a sufficient refutation of IJoyd 
 Jones's calumnies. Lloyd Jones could not have found 
 such a number of patient, candid, and tolerant men under 
 the whole heavens, except in a country where the Chris- 
 tian religion, to some extent, prevails ; so plain it is, 
 that the only true and efficient friend of freedom is the 
 religion of Jesus Christ. I honour the people of Old- 
 ham and the neighbourhood, and I have no doubt but 
 four-fifths of all that attended the Discussion will agree 
 with me, that they learned the exemplary meekness and 
 forbearance which they exhibited on that occasion, from 
 the lessons and examples of the Christian system. 
 
 I know nothing further that needs to be added in answer 
 to Lloyd Jones's Appendix. The full history of what 
 
143 
 
 Lloyd Jones has done to prevent or to delay the appear^ 
 unce of the Report of the Discussion, together with a full 
 answer to any ioolish slanders he has thrown out against 
 me, &c. &c. may be fonnd in my Evangelical Reformer- 
 Those who wisli to ascertain the truth on those personal 
 matters, may do so by reading that periodical, or the arti- 
 cles ranged under the head " Socialism," in tlie index of 
 that work : those who care nothing about sucli matters 
 may do as they please. 
 
 1 may just add, that to prevent delay in tiie publica- 
 tion of the Report, I offered to Lloyd Jones any of the 
 Ibilowing conditions : — 
 
 L Either for each disputant to correct his own speeches, 
 without interfering with the speeches of the other; or 
 
 2. For the s])eeches on both sides to be published just 
 as the\' were taken down by the Reporter, without the 
 addition or alteration of a single word on either side ; or, 
 
 ^]. For the whole to be refened to a committee, 
 (.•onsisting of equal numbers of men chosen from liotli 
 sides; or, 
 
 4. To refer it to the Reporter and leave him to decide ; 
 or, 
 
 o. To let the Report be dropped altogether ; or, 
 
 (i. To let ns discuss the matter over again, allowing 
 more time for the discussion, and each one to liave his 
 own Reporter. 
 
 To none of those proposals would Lloyd Jones agree. 
 What 1 conld liave jn'oposed more, I cannot tell, unless 
 it had been for Lloyd Jones -to correct both my speeches 
 and his own, and to write my appendix for me also. This 
 certainly appears to have been his wish from the be ginning, 
 and it is because I could not agi'ee to such a plan that the 
 Report has been so long delayed, and that Lloyd Jones 
 labours so mightily to fix some stain upon my character. 
 Poor man, I wish him a better state of mind. But he 
 should not expect to have all his own way in a world like 
 this. Neither vSocialist nor Christian can have every 
 thing as he could like here. However things may go on in 
 the Socialists' New World, the man is sure to be disap- 
 
144 
 
 pointed who expects to be the universal Dictator and 
 Judge in the Old World. 
 
 I would advi -e Lloyd Jones to moderate his hopes and 
 fancies a little, if he wishes to pass through life without 
 disappointment. In short, I would advise him to read his 
 New Testament, and to attend to that teacher which some- 
 times at least, I should hope, whispers instruction to his 
 soul in secret. I wish him well; I would not willingly 
 injure him for all the world. I freeh'- forgive him every 
 thing that he lias said or done of an unfriendly nature 
 towards me. He is a man of considerable powers in his 
 way ; I am sorry he should not employ his powers in a 
 better cause. It gi'ieves me to the heart to see a man 
 whom God has qualified for usefulness, exerting his talents 
 in the cause of a godless, hopeless, lawless system of infi- 
 delity. My worst wish is that he may see his error, and 
 enjoy with me and many thousands of others of his happier 
 countrymen, the pleasures and delights of genuine piety, 
 and the bright and gladdening hopes of a Christian's 
 immortality. 
 
 I now proceed to the proper business of the Appendix, 
 which is to lay such additional matters before our readers, 
 as may assist them in forming their opinions as to the 
 merits of the question. In reading over my speeches 
 the public sliouhl be aware, that I corrected the first night's 
 s])eeches so as to make them as much like what they were 
 when delivered as possible, and that the reason why all 
 the speeches are not what they should be is, that Lloyd 
 Jones made so many objections, that I blotted out a great 
 part of my corrections of the first night's speeches, and 
 did very little at the second night's speeches. 
 
 Observations on Lloyd Jones's last Speech. 
 
 ■ Lloyd Jones tells us, page 123, that in the details of 
 persecution which he has given, he has mentioned no 
 practices but such as were the result of religious concep- 
 tions. He should have said irreligious conceptions. He 
 has from first to last passed over those practices which 
 
146 
 
 were the natural results of Christian truth and feeling, 
 and picked up, from the history of eighteen hundred 
 years, all the misdeeds of inconsistent and faithless pre- 
 tenders to Christianity. If the persecutions he has 
 mentioned do not belong to Christianity, we must blame 
 our Christians, he says, that have given the connexion. 
 Our Christians have not attributed those persecutions to 
 Christianity; they have in variably' attributed them to the 
 want of Christianity. Why will Lloyd Jones thus 
 shamelessly utter those falsehoods ? 
 
 On page 124, Lloyd Jones gives us a story about a 
 Roman soldier and an Egyptian image : where he got 
 this fable, or whether he has made it himself, I know not, 
 Ijut it does not fit the subject in hand. For, I. Chris- 
 tianity is not a lifeless image ; it is a principle of mighty 
 operation. It has already, as I have shown in this dis- 
 cussion, shaken and thrown down many of the strong- 
 holds of sin and misery, and given birth to benevolent 
 and godlike institutions innumerable, which are filling 
 the earth with every kind of blessings. At this moment, 
 while Lloyd Jon9s is indulging his unseemly ridicule, it 
 is shaking the nations, and diilusing through the earth 
 a spirit of purity and truth and benevolence, unfelt 
 before. 2. The soldier is not yet born that has knocked 
 down Christianity. Many soldiers we have had, daring 
 and guilty enough to strike at it, but we have had none 
 strong enough to knock it down; — none have been so 
 successful as the Roman soldier was with his Egyptian 
 image. We have had Voltaire, and Rousseau, and 
 Gibbon, and Paine, and R. Owen, all mighty men in 
 the ranks of infidelity, and all aiming at it, not two 
 or three, but many thousands of blows ; — we have had 
 the infidel philosophers of old, Julian, PorphvTV, Celsus, 
 and others, together with the persecuting emperors of 
 Rome, and the bloody enemies of other lands, aiming at 
 Christianity their heavy blows ; — and now we have Lloyd 
 Jones exerting all his powers to knock it down, but 
 still it will not fall. Neither the swords of soldiers 
 bathed in the blood of Christian martyrs, nor the clubs 
 of infidels, aimed at the Christian system, have been able 
 
 N 
 
146 
 
 to make Christianity flinch or tremble for a moment. 
 Former generations of soldiers and infidels have passed away 
 one after another, leaving their swords of cruelty and their 
 clubs of falsehood to others, and those other generations of 
 infidels have spent their strength and craft in trying to 
 bring the system of the Saviour down, but st'ill it stands, 
 immoved and unmovable. It has w^itnessed the death and 
 burial of a hundred generations of its enemies, but it 
 still lives. And when Lloyd Jones and his party have 
 done their utmost, they will only succeed in knocking 
 down themselves; — Christianity will still maintain its 
 ground. 
 
 Lloyd Jones says, page 124, that " false principles 
 must be struck down." So say we. False principles 
 will be struck down : the number of infidel systems 
 already thrown down by the power of the Gospel, gives 
 lis assurance that infidel Socialism, and every similar 
 system of falsehood, must be quickly thrown down also. 
 
 On page 124, Lloyd Jones quoted a passage from 
 Matt. X. 34 — " Think not that I am come to send peace 
 on earth : I came not to send peace, but a sword." I can 
 scarcely believe but that Lloyd Jones, when he was com- 
 menting on this passage, knew that he was perverting the 
 words of Christ, and giving them a meaning quite different 
 from their true meaning ; a meaning which they were never 
 intended to have, and which no honest and understanding 
 man ever could give them. He insinuated that in this pas- 
 sage Christ meant to exhort his disciples to use the sword in 
 propagating his religion ; and he added, that his disciples 
 had followed his advice in this sense faithfully. Whoever 
 wishes to know the meaning of this passage, if he will 
 look at it, and observe the connexion in which it stands, 
 will see that its meaning is the opposite of what Lloyd 
 Jones insinuates. Christ has been warning his disciples 
 that they would have to meet with persecution while 
 preaching the Gospel, and then he repeats the passage 
 ^ferred to ; as much as to say, Think not that this 
 Gospel, peaceable as it is itself, will always be peacefully 
 received. However true and excellent a system maybe, some 
 will reject it, and they will persecute those who embrace 
 
147 
 
 it. The results of my visit to this earth, therefore, will not 
 be all peace. The son will be set against the father, and 
 the daughter against the mother. He therefore that will 
 be my disciple must prepare for trials and persecutions, 
 for he will be sure to meet with them ; he must be willing 
 to lose the friendship of his relations and friends, and to 
 see members of his own family become his foes. 'This was 
 Christ's meaning. He was not telling his disciples to 
 persecute others, he was foretelling his disciples that 
 others would persecute them. 
 
 In this sense, we acknowledge that Christ brought a 
 sword or divisions upon earth, and we see not how this 
 can furnish any rational objection to Christianity. Every 
 one who introduces any useful reforms into society, 
 must cause divisions in the same way. All will not 
 approve the new doctrine at once, and those who do not 
 approve, will often oppose those who do approve of 
 it. This was the case with the bills for abolishing the 
 slave trade and slavery, and with every other good mea- 
 sure. The persons that introduced and passed those good 
 measures, had an eye to the peace and happiness of their 
 country and of their kind, and these measures were adapted 
 to promote those desirable ends ; still, for the time, they 
 were the occasion of divisions and conflicts. If one should 
 introduce a measure to do away with drunkenness, it 
 would be the occasion of similar evils. The better the 
 law, the gTeater and fiercer would be the opposition from 
 those who live by drunkenness. But would the opposi- 
 tion and persecutions of beer-sellers and spirit-sellers 
 prove the law to be a bad one ? Would any honest man 
 say, that the law against drunkenness encouraged or 
 inculcated persecution ? 
 
 These words of Christ may be illustrated by a 
 passage in Williams's " Missionary Enterprize in the 
 South Sea Islands." " It is a remarkable fact," says 
 .T. Williams, page 184, " that in no island of any im- 
 portance has Christianity been introduced without a 
 war ; but it is right to observe," adds he, " that in every 
 instance the heathens, not the Christians, have been 
 the aggressors." But what sort of conduct is it in Lloyd 
 
Jones, a man who professes to belong to a new order of 
 beings, wiser than all that have gone before, to blame 
 Christians for all the injuries that infidels and wicked 
 people choose to do them ? 
 
 Even Socialism causes divisions in families. It has 
 already set the father against the son, and the mother 
 against tjje daughter. Wives are soiTowing over their 
 Social husbands, and parents over their children, and the 
 peace of many families is broken. Lloyd Jones knows it 
 is so ; and how does he account for it ? Does he blame 
 Socialism ? Oh no ; it is the enemies of Socialism that 
 make the mischief, he will tell you, by their opposition to it. 
 If they would all be Socialists, there would be no disputes 
 or separations. Lloyd Jones says that the introduction of 
 their system has excited persecution in some places ; but 
 does Lloyd Jones blame Socialism for those persecutions ? 
 Oh no ; he will tell you at once that it is the persecutors, 
 the enemies of the Social system, that are to blame, and not 
 the persons who are persecuted. How is it that Lloyd 
 Jones judges so differently when his own system is con- 
 cerned, from what he does when Christianity is con- 
 cerned ? Does it look like honesty ? If Socialists can 
 run the risk of disturbing society, in order to introduce 
 a system that robs men of God, of trust in Providence, and 
 of all hopes of future happiness, — a system that degrades 
 man to a lawless brute, and a mere machine ; surely 
 Chiistianity cannot be to blame for risking persecution, 
 when it comes to man laden with all the blessings of time, 
 and with all the hopes and joys of the immortal life to 
 come. 
 
 I would observe, therefore, in conclusion, 1 . That Christ 
 did not put a sword into the hands of his disciples ; he forbad 
 the use of swords, and commanded his disciples to use no 
 weapons but truth and charity, and they did as he com- 
 manded them. 2. That the persecutions which arose 
 about Christianity, were chargeable, not upon Chris- 
 tianity, but upon the enemies of Christianity. Christians 
 were persecuted, it was the enemies of Christianity that 
 were the persecutors. 3. If any have persecuted in the 
 name of Christ, they were wolves in sheep's clothing; 
 
men that either did not understand Christianity, or that, 
 like Vohaire, Hobhes, and some Socialists, pretended to 
 be Christians iui- their own unworthy ends. 4. Enlight- 
 ened and honest Christians never persecute. Christianity 
 is opposed to persecution from first to last. 
 
 Another passage like the former, which the Socialists 
 pervert, is Luke xiv, 26: — " If any man come to me, and 
 hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and 
 brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot 
 be my disciple." " Here we are required," say the 
 Socialists, " to hate onr nearest kindred." We observe — 
 I . That to hafe, in Scripture language, does not always 
 mean the opposite of kindness and good will ; it fre- 
 quently means no more than a less degree of love or 
 esteem. This is the meaning of this word in this pas- 
 sage. Hence this passage, as given by ^Matthew, reads 
 thus : — '' He that loveth father or mother more than me, is 
 unworthy of me : and he that loveth son or daughter more 
 than me, is not worthy of me," &c. (Matt. x. 37.) We 
 observe — 2. That any honest man who will read the whole 
 chaper, will see that no such thing as unkindness or ill- 
 will is required of Christians. Great multitudes, struck 
 with the excellency of Christ's doctrine, and the evident 
 divinity of his miracles, were preparing to follow him. 
 Christ, who knew that if they followed him they must be 
 persecuted and deserted by their relations, foretells to 
 them what they must expect to suffer if they would be 
 his faithful followers. " Ye shall be hated of all men," says 
 he, "for my name's sake; and they will deliver you up to 
 the councils, and scourge you in their synagogues; and 
 the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the 
 father the child ; and the children shall rise up against 
 their parents, and cause them to be put to death." And 
 then he proceeds to tell them, that if they would be true 
 to him, they must prepare to lose all things for his sake. 
 " You must prepare to forfeit the esteem and affection of 
 mother and father, of wife and child, and to sacrifice 
 even life itself." And then he adds the words of the pas- 
 sage — " He that loveth father or mother, &c. more than me, 
 cannot be my disciple." This w^as all plain, and it was 
 n2 
 
150 
 
 all true ; and the event of a few years proved it true. 
 And it is a proof that Christ's religion must have had a 
 deep and firm foundation in the conviclions and affections 
 of his disciples, or they could never have stood true to it 
 in the midst of such trials. They must have had dif- 
 ferent proofs of the truth of Christianity from what its 
 enemies have to offer for the truth of Infidelity. 
 
 On page 124, Lloyd Jones calls what I said ahout the 
 conduct of some of the leading men of his party, " little 
 gossipping tales without authority." If he wishes for 
 authority, it is at hand. The person who deserted his 
 wife and child, and seduced his wife's sister, and when 
 
 she was pregnant abandoned her, was , tlie 
 
 Editor of the , the Socialist newspaper, and 
 
 one of the first men in Lloyd Jones's community.* 
 Any that want to see other cases of infidel Social profli- 
 gacy, may see them in my pamphlet entitled " The Over- 
 throw of Infidel Socialism." The case of — was 
 
 published in a pamphlet by George Reece of Manchester. 
 I have the pamphlet by me. This pamphlet the Socialists 
 have never answered. Instead of answering it, they went 
 round to the booksellers, and threatened them with a pro- 
 secution if they did not desist from selling it, and in 
 this way those boasters of liberty and free discussion, 
 those professed enemies of persecution, suppressed the 
 pamphlet. 
 
 Lloyd Jones tells us, page 125, that all the evils 
 which he has enumerated are the result of " a false con- 
 ception of human nature." It is Lloyd Jones's concep- 
 tions on this subject that happen to be false. The 
 persecutions Lloyd Jones has detailed had no more to do 
 with any " false conception of human nature," than had the 
 " physical, intellectual, and moral hospitals" of Owenism. 
 The persecutions he has named had nothing to do witk 
 any " conceptions of human nature," either false or 
 
 * I gave the name to the printers, but they refused to insert it, 
 from a disinclination to incur the risk of a prosecution ; I have 
 the name in my possession, together with the names of a great 
 number of leading Socialists, who have acted in a similar way. 
 
151 
 
 true ; they originated in that love of power or wealthy or 
 in those instincts of man's animal nature, which nothing 
 but the religion of Christ can subdue or destroy. The 
 spirit of persecution is natural to man, in his uncon- 
 verted state, just as persecution and blood are natural to 
 wolves and tigers. Men in their natural state have always 
 been persecutors. The ancient Greeks and Romans were 
 persecutors; the ancient Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Per- 
 sians were persecutors ; the Chinese are persecutors; the 
 unconverted savages of the South Sea Islands, the wandering 
 tribes of Africa, the savages of America, the Greenlanders, 
 and the Esquimaux of Labrador, are all persecutors. All 
 men are persecutors in their natural state, even to Robert 
 Owen himself, who would have every Social community a 
 standing army, and all the armed communities to unite, by 
 the teiTor and the force of arms, to oblige the religious 
 part of the human family to give up their religion and 
 embrace the system of infidel Socialism.- 
 
 " A misconception of human nature," indeed ! What- 
 ever misconceptions of human nature a man may have, he 
 cannot persecute, if he be a genuine Christian; and 
 however coiTect a man's conceptions of human nature 
 may be, he will still be a persecutor, when tempted to be 
 so, unless brought under the influence of true religion. 
 But if, indeed, false conceptions of human nature did give 
 rise to persecution, true Christians could not persecute ; 
 for the Christian religion is built upon the truest concep- 
 tions of human nature. The true Christian's conceptions 
 of human nature are as correct as the Socialists' concep- 
 tions of human nature are erroneous. 
 
 Lloyd Jones would have us to believe that whenever 
 people persecute, it is because they think that people can 
 change their opinions at pleasure. But if Lloyd Jones 
 thinks so, he is under a great mistake. Persons may 
 persecute on any principles. A man in my neighbour- 
 hood was a Socialist. He believed that men could not 
 help tlieir belief, and that they were not therefore answer- 
 able for their belief. Yet this man persecuted his wife 
 
 * See his Essay on the Formation of Character, p. 47, 48. 
 
152 
 
 and 4?.hildren, and forced them to give up going to the 
 chapel and the Sunday school. Here was a Socialist 
 persecutor : did he persecute because he thought that his 
 wife and children were answerable for their belief ? How 
 could he ? He thought people were the creatures of 
 circumstances. He persecuted, because he thought 
 Sunday schools and chapels were bad " circumstances ;" 
 and he would beat them and turn them out of doors 
 rather than let them be surrounded with such circum- 
 stances. Beadle, of America, who held Lloyd Jones's 
 notions about human nature, and who was as free from 
 what Lloyd Jones calls " false conceptions of human 
 nature," as Lloyd Jones himself, nevertheless murdered 
 all his children and his wife in one night, and then mur- 
 dered himself. The doctrine of " circumstances," of 
 which the Socialists boast so much, is not only capable 
 of being abused to purposes of persecution, but its natu- 
 ral tendency is to prepare the way for persecution. This 
 is plain from the case of Diderot, the father of Owen's 
 system ; who, though he contends that no one deserves 
 blame, whatever his character be, yet contends that evil 
 doers ought to be executed, to famish motives or circum- 
 stances to prevent others from doing wrong. Hence also 
 those moral and intellectual hospitals recommended by 
 Robert Owen, and the utility of his doctrine of having 
 all the communities amied, that by such circumstances 
 (viz. the force and terror of their arms) they might oblige 
 to become infidel Socialists. 
 
 So with the founders of the Inquisition, and with all 
 the great persecutors of all ages ; all acted on Robert 
 Owen's doctrine of the influence of circumstances. They 
 professed, just as Robert Owen does, in reference to his 
 dungeon hospitals and armed communities, to have the good 
 of the people at heart, and they professed to put people 
 under the influence of their newly arranged circumstan- 
 ces, for this very end, to do them good. They had no 
 idea that people could believe error at pleasure; their 
 object was, by circumstances of terror, to change their 
 faith for them, just as it is with Robert Owen ; or else to 
 make them keep their belief to themselves, that others 
 
153 
 
 might not be misled by them. In short, there is nothing 
 can properly keep men from persecuting but the religion 
 of Jesus Christ : this, and this only, is the effectual and 
 thorough cure for the spirit of bigotry and persecution ; 
 but this is adapted, as it spreads, to do away with all 
 persecutions, whether superstitious, political, or infidel 
 persecutions. 
 
 On page 125, Lloyd Jones tells us that our " convic- 
 tions are not subject to our wills;" this is not true. 
 Thousands believe error at this moment, and all because 
 they will not search after truth. When information and 
 evidence are placed in a man's reach, he can either attend 
 to that information and examine that evidence, or neglect 
 it and tuni from it, just as he wills or pleases ; and so his 
 convictions depend on his will. When I heard of teeto- 
 talism 1 thought it would be a good system, if it were 
 practicable, but I thought it impracticable. But in order 
 to be certain, I tried it, and found it practicable enough. 
 By choosing to try and examine, I changed my belief. 
 So with Christianity : "if a man will do God's will, he 
 shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God." " And 
 this is the condemnation, that light is come into the 
 world, and men prefer darkness to light, because their 
 deeds are evil." 
 
 He says " we are forced to believe what appears to be 
 true," &c. Whoever doubted it ? But a man can make 
 falsehood a])pear to be truth, and truth appear to be false- 
 hood. A man by lewdness may so deprave his soul, that 
 the Christian doctrine of marriage shall appear to be false, 
 and R. Owen's unclean doctrine true; and another, by a 
 chaste conduct, can make the doctrine of Christ appear 
 to be true, and R. Owen's licentious system to be false. 
 And so in most things. A man's faith is under his own 
 control ; and this is the reason why men are answerable 
 for their faith as well as for their conduct. But as we 
 have shown, this doctrine of responsibility as taught in 
 the Gospel cannot produce persecution, but just the con- 
 trary, it produces meekness and charity. 
 
 On page 125, Lloyd Jones tells us " that to imagine 
 that God will punish men for acting in accordance with 
 
154 
 
 the nature which he has given them, is to imagine that he 
 will act in the most barbarous and horrid manner." This 
 is perfectly true, and Christianity teaches nothing to the 
 contrary. Christianity does not require us to act con- 
 trary to our nature ; its object is to lead us to act accord- 
 ing to our nature. All crimes against nature, Christianity 
 condemns. But man has two natures, be it remembered. 
 *' Man is a compound being ;" he has a body and a soul ; 
 an animal and a spiritual nature ; and that for which Chris- 
 tianity condemns men is, acting according to the animal or 
 carnal nature, instead of the spiritual ; letting the horse 
 ride the man, instead of the man the horse. It is Socialism 
 that calls us to act against nature, and seeks to convert us 
 into mere brutes. Christianity comes to make us act in 
 accordance with our full nature, and so to raise human 
 nature to perfection. Religion and uncorrupted human 
 nature are in perfect harmony ; human nature, in its per- 
 fect state, and Christianity are one. If men act according 
 to nature rightly understood, they will be accepted of 
 God. 
 
 An enemy is most to be dreaded when he pretends to 
 b& a friend. The devil can carry his craft no further than 
 to transform himself into the appearance of an angel of 
 light. And so with my opponent ; his last effort of mis- 
 chief is to wrap himself in pretensions of charity, and 
 exhort us to be good and kind. Can the same fountain 
 send forth sweet water and bitter ? Shall the same mouth 
 send forth blessing and cursing; blasphemy and Christian 
 advice ? Can a bramble bear olive berries, or a thorn 
 figs ? I am grieved with such mockery ; it is more offen- 
 sive than his open blasphemy. Still it is encouraging 
 to find, that when an infidel does begin to give good 
 advice, he is forced to go to the Gospel for it, and boiTow 
 his exhortations from the system which he persecutes. 
 But I would rather Christianity should be preached by 
 its friends alone. It would be more seemly in Lloyd 
 Jones if he would first retract his unproved charges 
 against the Gospel, and abandon his system of infidel 
 pollution, before he turns preacher of the Gospel. 
 
 But Lloyd Jones says his only aim is the happiness of 
 
155 
 
 mankind. How can he have the shainelessness to utter 
 such pretensions, while he is labouring to overthrow the 
 only system of unmixed purity and benevolence in the 
 wniverse, and bring in a system of absolute Atheism and 
 unrestrained licentiousness ? Let them, like the Author 
 and first preachers of Christianity, show their love toman- 
 kind by doing something for their good, by making some 
 sacrifices for their welfare, and by setting us an example of 
 chastity, temperance, and charity, and then let them 
 begin to preach and make professions of charity. That 
 you may know how to value these pretensions, read the 
 lives of our infidels, or see their character in the "Over- 
 throw of Infidel Socialism/' " Simpson's Plea," &c. 
 
 Lloyd Jones tells us that all their offence is recom- 
 mending kindness and forbearance. It would be wrong 
 to let such false statements pass without exposure. If 
 Lloyd Jones does not know the ground of our opposition 
 to their system, I will briefly inform him. We oppose 
 you, 1. Because you attempt to hijure a reUgion which we 
 have found by experience to be profitable unto all things ; 
 bringing with it the comforts of the life that now is, and 
 foretastes of the life to come. 2. Because you make 
 false charges against this religion, which you cannot prove, 
 and will not retract. 3. Because you declare that Christian 
 marriage, which we find one of the greatest blessings of life, 
 is a sin, an unnatural crime, " an accursed thing," and 
 recommend unbounded prostitution, unchecked and univer- 
 sal lewdness, absolute promiscuous intercourse, and point 
 us to the brutes for an example. 4. You wish to form 
 armed communities, in order to extirpate, in imitation of 
 your infidel predecessors, the religion of Christ from the 
 earth, and by force of arms compel the nations to adopt 
 your Godless, Soul-less, and Lawless system of infidelity. 
 5. You intend to break up single family arrangements, and 
 force men to live together like droves of filthy swine or packs 
 of hounds. 6. You aim at taking from parents their children, 
 and having them trained by unfeeling nurses. 7. You 
 are trying to induce governments to patronize those 
 schemes of cruelty and uncleanness, and use their fleets 
 and armies to bring them into operation. 8. These and 
 
156 
 
 many other abominations and cruelties, some of them too 
 indecent and horrible to be named, are parts of your sys- 
 tem, as is plain from your published works, and these are 
 the reasons why we oppose you. I am prepared to prove 
 these charges against your system before the public in 
 open discussion ; I have proved them already in my " Over- 
 throw of Infidel Socialism;" and the reason why I do 
 not fully prove them now is, that Lloyd Jones will not 
 allow me the space for my Appendix agreed upon by 
 the Committees. And these are the men who talk about 
 doing us good. The shamelessness and impudence of 
 infidelity know no bounds. 
 
 I cannot pass unnoticed Lloyd Jones's repeated men- 
 tion of a Creator, Divine Being, &c. It should be 
 known that Socialists do not believe in a God, or a future 
 life, and that they use these words only for a cloak. This 
 conduct is unmanly. Why be ashamed of their princi- 
 ples, if they be good ; and if they be bad, why want us 
 to adopt them ? To take the name of God, and apply it 
 to some unknown chemical power, is unworthy quibbling. 
 And to talk of a future life, when all that they mean is, 
 the passing of the matter of our dead bodies first into 
 worms, then into grass and flowers, and to call this im- 
 mortality, is conduct of which any but an unbeliever 
 would be ashamed. 
 
 Lloyd Jones says, page 127, that he " believes too 
 well of the Regulator of the universe, to think that he 
 will punish him as a man, whatever speculative mistakes 
 he may fall into." This was the way Pvousseau, one of the 
 fathers of the Social system, spoke, when he was spending 
 his days in licentiousness, exposing his new-bom chil- 
 dren in the street, and labouring to spread those principle* 
 which filled the Continent with pollution and blood. 
 " Speculative mistakes," indeed ! The Gospel never 
 teaches us that any will be punished for " speculative 
 mistakes," but it nevertheless teaches us, that neither 
 fornicators, nor adulterers, nor drunkards, nor unclean 
 persons, nor liars, nor revilers, shall inherit the king- 
 dom of God. Lloyd Jones says he cares not whether 
 Infidelity or Christianity or Socialism prevails; if the 
 
157 
 
 human race is made happy, he will be satisfied. But if 
 Lloyd Jones is still in doubt which system is best calcu- 
 lated to make men happy, he should not stand forward 
 as a reformer. It would be well for him to examine 
 Christianity, and try it for himself, and then he will not 
 be so careless as to which system ])revails. His careless- 
 ness is nothing to his credit. 
 
 Observations on some parts of Lloyd Jones's former 
 Speeches. 
 
 On page 7, Lloyd Jones says that he never said that 
 Christianity produced all the crime and misery in the 
 country, and that no other j)erson belonging to the society 
 to wliich he belongs ever made such a statement. To 
 this I answer, 1. I received a letter from Rowbottom, 
 Socialist lecturer, of Stockport, ollering to prove, if I would 
 meet him in discussion, that Christianity is the cause of 
 all the crime and misery of the country. 2 G. A. 
 Fleming, another Social lecturer, and Editor of the 
 New Moral World, in his " Infidelity of Professed 
 Christianity," page 6, says, " History remains to tell us 
 all what sort of fruit the Christian tree has yielded, — the 
 plunder, the oppression and the degradation of our race," 
 — and throughout his pamphlet he represents Christianity 
 as the cause of all our crime and miseries. 3. Robert 
 Owen charges i-eligion, and he mentions the Christian 
 religion by name, with introducing into society " angei-, 
 haired, jealousy, envy, strife, murder, wars and massa- 
 cres ; with maintaining ignorance, being the cause of 
 poverty, and the sole cause of all the wickedness and 
 misery experienced by the human race." (See his Man- 
 chester Lectures, page 16, 17.) 
 
 In his discussion with Alexander Campbell, of 
 America, R. Owen undertook to prove, " I. That all the 
 religions of the world have been founded on the ignor- 
 ance of mankind. 2. That they are directly o])posed to 
 the never-changing laws of human nature. 3. That they 
 have been, and are, the real source of vice, disunion, 
 and misery of every description. 4. That they are now 
 th« only real bar to the formation of a society of virtue, 
 o 
 
158 
 
 of iuteliigence, of charity in tiie most extended seiisp. 
 and of sincerity and kindness among the whole human 
 family." (See page 30, English edition.) On jDage 36, 
 he adds, " To me, they all (i. e. all religions. Christian 
 as well as others,) ajipear to be one and the same in 
 principle, and in general practice, except the difference 
 in the rites and ceremonies, which I deem mere forms." 
 
 To prove the falsehood of f.loyd Jones's statement 
 beyond dispute, I will give a copy of a handbill, put out 
 on JMonday, July 1st., by the resident missionary of 
 Newcastle-on-Tyne, named James Campbell, which I 
 have now in my possession : — 
 
 *' To the Clergy and others of all denominations, — A Public- 
 Discussion on the effects of Christianity, as hitherto and at pre- 
 sent taught and practised, -will take place this evening, in the 
 Music Hall, Nelson- street, when it will be contended that all our 
 political, social, and domestic evils arise from the practic'e of 
 Christianity. Chair to be taken at eight o'clock precisely. Twenty 
 minutes will be allowed for the first and second speakers, after- 
 wards ten minutes each, and no person will be allowed to speak a 
 second time wJiile there is another speaker on the same side. To 
 defray expenses, one penny will be taken at the door. — Printed 
 foi' D. France and Co." 
 
 I met this Socialist missionary myself in the discussion, 
 when this bill was fastened up before the audience as the 
 ground of the debate. I would add, that the Socialists, 
 when they do not openly assert that Christianity is the 
 cause of all our crime and misery, insinuate it in all 
 their writings, as a perusal of their pamphlets will show. 
 
 On page 12, Lloyd Jones tells us, that Victor, the 
 Roman prelate, excommunicated the Eastern churches, 
 and this he brings forward as a proof that Christianity 
 is a persecuting system. I would observe, 1. That what 
 Victor did in this matter was the conduct- of an indivi- 
 dual only ; Christianity had nothing to do with it, nor 
 had the Christian churches. In what Victor did, he went 
 directly against the doctrines and principles of Chris- 
 tianity, and against the wishes of the churches and the 
 ministers of the churches too. '* When Victor, Bishop 
 of Rome," says King, in his celebrated work on 
 the Primitive Church, " had excommunicated the 
 
m 
 
 Eastern churches, because they continued to obseiTe 
 that feast on a different time from the churches of the 
 West, not only the bishops of the adverse party, but 
 oven tliose of his own side, condemned him as rash, 
 heady, and turbulent." It would have been a wonder 
 indeed, if, in the course of nearly two hundred 3'ears, 
 Lloyd Jones could not have found, in all the churches, 
 consisting of many scores if not hundreds of thousands of 
 persons, one single individual that acted inconsistently 
 with his priciples. But what sort of an argument is 
 this ? He might as well have attempted to prove that 
 Christianity tended to make men theatrical performers, 
 lor surely one individual might be found, by examining 
 the history of the church for two hundred years, who so 
 far declined from his profession as to become a theatrical 
 performer. 2. Lloyd Jones should have told us that 
 this breach of the church's peace was healed by the mild 
 and Christian interposition of Ireneus, Bishop of Lyons. 
 
 3. The dispute was not about " a mere difference of 
 opinion," as Lloyd Jones says, but about a difference of 
 customs : there does not appear to have been any differ- 
 ence of opinion in the churches on this point at all. 
 
 4. False opinions as to the nature of belief had, therefore, 
 nothing to do with the matter, 5. What Lloyd Jones 
 says about cursing, about inflicting pains and penalties, 
 is all a falsehood. There were no such things. It 
 was a bare verbal communication. (See Mosheim, page 
 152, &c.) 
 
 In the third century, there was another Bishop of 
 Rome named Stephen, that excommunicated tlie Asiatic 
 churches on account of a difference of opinion, but he 
 too was censured by the other bishops as well as by the 
 churches, as a breaker and disturber of the churches' 
 peace, because that he would impose upon others the 
 belief of a disputable point, which, as Firmilian con- 
 tended, " loas never icont to he done, but every church 
 followed their own different ways ; and never therefore 
 broke the unity and peace of the church, which now," 
 says he, " Stephen dares to do, and breaks that peace whick 
 the ancient bishops always preserved in mutual love and 
 
160 
 
 honour." Such was the doclrme and practice of the 
 churches for three hundred years. The Council of 
 Carthage laid down the same peaceful and liberal doc- 
 trine at this time. " It now remains," says the act of 
 that council, '' that every one of us declare our judg- 
 ments concerning this matter, judging no man, and 
 removing no one from our communion, for thinking 
 otherwise than we do.'^ (King on the Primitive Church.) 
 Thus did the churches, consisting of innumerable thou- 
 sands of persons, live in peace and harmony, tolerating 
 one another, for nearly three hundred years ; while only 
 two men are found, in all that time, setting aside the 
 authority of Christ, and attempting, in defiance of the 
 spirit and precepts of the Gos])el, to usurp dominion 
 over the consciences of their fellow men. The history 
 of the universe besides cannot present another such an 
 instance of the long and extensive triumph of liberty 
 and love, as is here presented in the church of Christ. 
 There is no other system on earth that could have pro- 
 duced such effects: the religion of Christ alone could 
 thus turn the savage tempers of the Gentile world into 
 peace and love. And yet it is hither that Lloyd Jones 
 comes to seek for arguments to prove that Christianity is 
 a persecuting system. 
 
 A man sows wheat in his field — I know it is wheat 
 from its appearance and taste — and where he sows it, 
 wheat springs up : but it is found, after a while, that in the 
 field, along with the wheat, there has sprung up here and 
 there a thistle also. This is just as might be expected ; 
 for the gi'ound on which the wheat was sown, had borne 
 thistles previously, and it would have been strange indeed if 
 neither root nor seed had been left in the field. But now 
 a man comes forward and assures you, that the seed which 
 the fanner sowed was thistle seed, and that those two or 
 three thistles are the natural croj). You tell him. That 
 cannot be, for that in two hundred and fifty acres there 
 are but two or three thistles to be found, while all the rest 
 is nicely covered over with a healthful crop of wheat. 
 Still the man talks about the thistles ; he points you to 
 them ; he says they are there ; he takes them in his hands 
 
and holds them up ; he puts them in your faces, and witli 
 all the fierceness and fire of his enraged soul, he stares at 
 you, and shakes his clencheci fist, and dares you to question 
 the fact, and defies the worM to prove that they are not 
 thistles. What would you say to such a man ? You 
 would think him a madman or a deceiver. Just so it is 
 with my opponent. Christ sowed good wheat in his field, 
 and the crop was wheat ; only in the space of two hun- 
 dred«and fifty years there sprung up two thistles, Victor, 
 and Stephen, Bishopsof Rome. Lloyd Jones discovers this, 
 and contends that it was thistle seed that Christ sowed. 
 I produce the seed basket, containing samples of the 
 seed Christ sowed, and it is all wheat; I show him that 
 the thistles are not one in fifty thousand; and I also 
 give him pi'oof from ancient history that the ground on 
 which Christ sowed his seed used to bear persecuting 
 thistles before, and that therefore a few thistlas might 
 naturally be looked for. But all is of no use to the 
 new prophet; he shouts and raves and clenches his hands, 
 and repeats it, that there are thistles there, - and on 
 his \yord he assures you that Christ sowed them. What 
 can we do with him ? W^e must leave him v/ith his 
 thistles, and we will rejoice in the harvest of better things 
 which both in time and in eternity is ripening for us. 
 
 On page 13, Lloyd Jones pretends that there are so many 
 diflferences of opinion in the world as to what Christianity 
 is, that it is imporssible to tell what it is. He says this 
 in order to justify himself in taking the o})inions of a few 
 deranged or ignorant or depraved men, and calling them 
 Christianity, instead of taking the system as it is plainly 
 laid down in the New Testament. This is a most un- 
 worthy course of proceeding. 1. The differences existing 
 among people as to what Christianity is, throw no diffi- 
 culty in the way of deciding this question. Let a thou- 
 sand impartial persons read the New Testament simply 
 to ascertain whether it encourages persecution and blood, 
 and there will not be a difference of opinion among thena. 
 All will agi'ee that there is not a passage in fiivour of any 
 such thing, but that the book is full of passages of a con- 
 trary kind, which enjoin meekness, and gentleness, and 
 love. ' '''" o 2 
 
162 
 
 2. Suppose I sliould charge Socialism with encouraging 
 theft, and Lloyd Jones should ask me for my proof, 
 would it be enough for me,^to say, A man in Germany 
 understood it to do so ? Would not Lloyd Jones say. 
 The man misunderstood Socialism ? And if I should 
 say there were so many differences of opinion in the 
 world as to what Socialism really was, that I could not 
 allow him to be an infallible judge "what it was, would he 
 not charge me with quibbling ? Just such is Lloyd Jones's 
 conduct in reference to Christianity. 
 
 " There are so many differences of opinion about what 
 Christianity is," says Lloyd Jones. Either Lloyd Jones 
 knows very little about religious sects, or else he knows 
 that their differences of opinion about what Christianity 
 is are comparatively trifling. Take twenty of those sects 
 who regard the New Testament as the standard of Chris- 
 tian doctrine, and what are their differences of opinion as 
 to what Christianity is ? Does one sect, think it teaches 
 lying, another that it teaches truth ? Does one think it 
 teaches persecution, and another that it teaches love and 
 gentleness ? No such thing. There is not on any of 
 these points a single difference of opinion. They all 
 know that the religion of Christ is a religion of truth and 
 love and gentleness. They all differ from one another on 
 some less important matters, but they all agree that Jesus 
 of Nazareth went about doing good, and that every 
 Christian ought to follow his example. Nay, so plain is 
 the New Testament on those points, that infidels them- 
 selves have been generally agreed, that as a moral system 
 it has no equal in the universe. 
 
 Suppose a man should say that there were so many 
 differences of opinion about the laws of England, that 
 no one could tell whether they forbade theft and murder or 
 not, — what would people say of him ? They w^ould at once 
 answer. We grant that lawyers dispute about a vast 
 number of nice points of law, but that the laws forbid 
 theft and murder, the most ignorant in the country kno\r. 
 So with the New Testament. There are differences of 
 opinion about many matters of speculation, but the child 
 that is not five years old, the savage, who for the firit 
 
163 
 
 time in his life is leaniing to read and to think, the Jew, 
 the Mahometan, the Hindoo, men of all lands and of all 
 creeds can see, that the religion of the New Testament 
 is a religion of gentleness and love. So plain and palpa- 
 ble and unifonn is the doctrine of Christianity against 
 all persecution and bitterness ; so plain, so palpable and 
 uniform is its doctrine in favour of nniversal and impar- 
 tial and unwearied and persevering charity, that no man 
 can call its meaning in cpiestion, unless he has some bad 
 reason for so doing. Such attempts at misleading the 
 minds of men are unworthy of man. They show the 
 mind of the man that makes them to be in a very bad 
 state. 
 
 But Beza understood the passage in Acts to sanction 
 ]iersecution, says Lloyd Jones. I would be ashamed of 
 such a defence. If Beza did so understand one passage, 
 what then ? It would be strange indeed if there were 
 not a few insane men in the world, but whoever thinks 
 of setting the opinion of one madman against ten thou- 
 sand sane men, unless he has some unworthy object in view 
 in so doing ? There have been a few who have professed 
 to doubt of their own existence ; but is our existence 
 therefore a doubtful matter ? To what unworthy shifts 
 may a bad cause drive a man ! 
 
 One page 12, Lloyd Jones says, that the very moment 
 the Christians began to differ in opinion, they began to 
 inflict pains and penalties upon each other ; but on page 
 13 he says that they had not at that time any means of 
 ])ersecuting, because they themselves were not tolerated in 
 the Roman empire. Thus in the compass of one page 
 can my opponent contradict himself. 
 
 On page 23, Lloyd Jones says — " INIr. Barker tells 
 you there are passages of an opposite description in the 
 Bible." I said no such thing. I neither said nor meant 
 that there were some passages in the New Testament that 
 sanctioned persecution, and others of an opposite descrip- 
 tion which forbad it. This insinuation that there are 
 passages of opposite descriptions is of Lloyd Jones's own 
 making, and is altogether false. What I say is, that 
 tke passages Lloyd Jones quoted do not sanction persecu- 
 
164 
 
 tion ; that there is not a passage in the whole New Testa- 
 ment in favour of persecution, but that there are hundreds 
 against persecution. 
 
 On page 23, Lloyd Jones says — " Those passages, Mr. 
 Barker told you, where it is said *Let a man be rejected,' 
 * Let a man be accursed,' on acconnt of his o])inons." 
 This also is a false quotation, both of the Scriptures and of 
 my words. The Scriptures do not say " Let a man be 
 rejected" or " accursed," on account of his opinions, but 
 on account of heresy. And so far from calling heresies 
 mere opinions, I expressly stated, that heresies consisted 
 more in wicked conduct than in erroneous opinions. The 
 kind of heretic mentioned in Titus, iii. 59, was one who 
 was subverted, that is, turned entirely away from the 
 Gospel, to a system of an opposite character ; he was one 
 that " sinned and was condemned in his own mind," 
 (verse 10,) a self-convicted profligate. Those mentioned 
 in Gal. i. 7, 8, who v/ere to be '' accursed" or " cut off," 
 or in better words, disowned, separated from Christian 
 fellowship, were persons who preached another Gospel, 
 which, indeed, was not a Gospel, and overthrew the 
 Gospel of Christ. They were sensual, hypocritical 
 unbelievers. 
 
 On page 23, Lloyd Jones says, that the persecutors 
 whom he had mentioned, namely, Victor, &c. drew the doc- 
 trine of persecution from those passages of Scripture which 
 he read over, and that they quoted those passages to sanc- 
 tion persecution. I have examined the history of Victor, 
 &c. but I cannot find the least gTound that Lloyd Jones 
 could have for this assertion. There is not a word in all 
 the Church History to warrant Lloyd Jones's assertion ; 
 it is manifestly a pure fabrication, an unmixed untruth. 
 He tells us on the same page, " that the Christians of 
 those days drew from the New Testament the doctrine of 
 persecution;" this also is entirely of his own making; 
 there is not one word of truth in it. Lloyd Jones denies 
 afterwards, it will be seen, having made those charges. 
 How awful, that men should thus recklessly set at nought 
 the truth ! What must be the nature of that cause, which 
 requires such criminal efforts for its support ? 
 
165 
 
 On page 24, Lloyd Jones says — " iNIr. Barker liim- 
 self does not always put this construction on those text?." 
 Yes, always. If I ever gave any other interpretation, let 
 Lloyd Jones please to produce it. 
 
 On the same page Lloyd Jones insinuates that the 
 Quakers are the only sect I can bring forward as opposed 
 to })ersecution. Sec. No such thing. 1 refer to them 
 because thev are amonc,- the oldest of tlie Endish sects, 
 and because their principles are so well and so generally 
 known. 
 
 Lloyd Jones says, pages 24 and 25, that " there are 
 some dispositions which are naturally kind, and that some 
 are very kind. Penn's seems to have been one of this 
 description." Answer : — The freedom from persecution of 
 which I speak was not confined to Penn, it was the 
 character of the whole sect with which Penn was con- 
 nected. Penn was but the representative of scores of 
 thousands, all bearing the same character, and breathing 
 the same spirit. Penn is mentioned because his eminence 
 as an author, as a man of influence, and the founder of a 
 new empire, make him better known ; and not as being 
 superior in spirit to the tens of thousands of his commu- 
 nity. And many of those were not men that were natu- 
 rally kind ; they were men that had been naturally savage 
 and fierce, as men generally are. Some of them were 
 bred to arms, and were as ready to resent an injury, or 
 to join in persecution, as other men, as might be proved 
 from the history of the Quakers by many striking instances, 
 if I were allowed space; but Christianity had changed 
 their natures. It was their new nature, begotten in 
 them by the word of God, that made them such examples 
 of meekness and affection. It was because they were 
 Christians that they were so free from the spirit of per- 
 secution. 
 
 On page 25, Lloyd Jones says that one of Con- 
 stantine's first acts after his conversion, was to hinder the 
 celebration of the Pagan worship, &c. This is altogether 
 untrue. One of Constantine's first acts after he professed 
 to embrace Christianity, was, to give liberty to all persons 
 to adhere to what religion they thought proper, and to 
 
166 
 
 profess and exercise it unmolested. His designs with 
 resjject to Paganism, were only made known towards the 
 latter part of his life, by the edicts he issued for destroy- 
 ing the heathen temples, &c. (See Mosheim, 237, 
 edit. 1826. Constan tine's Life, &c.) 
 
 On page 27, Lloyd Jones says, that he is " condemn- 
 ing Christians out of the mouths of Christians them- 
 selves." This is not true. The Christians to whose 
 works Lloyd Jones refers never do condemn Christians ; 
 they simply give an account of anti-Christian persecu- 
 tions, to show men the danger of deviating from the 
 tolerant and loving doctrines of Christianity. 
 
 He then professes to give an account of the first gene- 
 ral council, and of the edict of Constantine against 
 Arius; of all which I would observe, that there is 
 nothing authentic or coiTect in the whole account. 
 Mosheim, the celebrated ecclesiastical historian, observes, 
 " There is no part of the history of the church that has 
 been unfolded with such negligence, or rather passed 
 over with such rajDidity, as the history of this council. 
 The ancient w'riters are neither agreed concerning the 
 time nor the place in which it was assembled, the 
 number of those who sat in council, nor the bishop who 
 ])resided in it. No authentic acts of its famous sentence 
 have been committed to writing, or at least none have 
 been transmitted to our times" (p. 304, 305.) Where 
 then did Lloyd Jones get his information ? As to what 
 he gives as the edict of Constantine, it bears the marks 
 of a forgery on its very face. It appears to me that 
 Lloyd Jones has an ecclesiastical history of his own, 
 made up of the calumnies and forgeries of a number of 
 quarrelsome and envious pretenders and unbelievers ; for 
 I look in vain for his representations of things in the 
 regular histories of the church. This should be borne 
 in mind by the readers of this debate, or they may be 
 gi-eatly misled. It is also well worthy of remark, that 
 persecution did not show itself in what is called the Chris- 
 tian church at all, until the bishops had begun to lay 
 aside the principles of Christ, and meet together to legis- 
 late contrary to Christ's doctrine. In all cases it is the 
 want of Christianity that gives rise to persecution. 
 
1^7 
 
 Another device of Lloyd Jones deserves notice : 
 when he gives you an account of any person, he doe.s 
 not give you the account of any impartial man, but the 
 account of his enemies. When he pretends to describe 
 the doctrine of Alexander, on page 26, he does it in the 
 words of Arius, the opjionent of Alexander; so when he 
 ])retends to give you an account of the proceedings of 
 Arius, on page 40, he gives you the words of Atlianasius, 
 the opponent of Arius. This is the course Lloyd Jones 
 uniformly pursues. Any slander that was ever uttered 
 by one person against another, however false, is brought 
 forward as good history by Lloyd Jones, whenever it 
 suits his unholy purposes. 
 
 On page 40, Lloyd Jones talks of the cruelties of the 
 Vandals, (who had no more to do with Christianity than 
 the savages of North America,) and shamefully insinuates 
 that their wars were the effects of Christianity. Witli as 
 much reason might I attribute the bnghtness of the sun to 
 the influences of Socialism. Lloyd Jones's statement, 
 that the Vandals were partly Pagans^ and partly Arians, is 
 an entirely groundless falsehood! 
 
 What Lloyd Jones says about Julian, on page 41, 
 appears to be another of Lloyd Jones's forgeries. Julian 
 had been dead from one to two hundred years at the time 
 that Lloyd Jones represents him as speaking against the 
 Christians. I am amazed at those endless falsifications 
 of history. I cannot find one fact honestly represented 
 in all Lloyd Jones's historical references, to expose all 
 his misrepresentations would recpiire a volume. The 
 story about Hypatia, on page 43, is another instance of 
 Lloyd Jones's utter disregard of truth. 
 
 On pages 41 and 42, Lloyd Jones says I have 
 nothing to do with the system of the Socialists in this 
 discussion. I answer, I have this to do with it ; Lloyd 
 Jones says, that the only root of persecution is amirstaken 
 notion of human nature, or the Christian doctrine that 
 man is accountable for his belief. T proved Lloyd Jones's 
 notion to be false, by showing that the Socialists, as well 
 as other infidels who reject this doctrine (which he calls a 
 " false conception of human nature") and every other 
 
168 
 
 doctrine of Christianity, are persecutors also, and enforce 
 persecution both by precept and example. My argument 
 is unanswerable ; it entirely overthrows the whole of Lloyd 
 Jones's theory, and this is the reason why he thus dis- 
 honourably evades the point. But Lloyd Jones is willing 
 to discuss with me the tendency of his principles, he says. 
 I have no objections to do so ; I have offered to discuss the 
 merits of Socialism with Lloyd Jones, and Lloyd Jones 
 shrunk from the discussion. I am prepared to prove it 
 to be an immoral, a licentious, and a cruel system ; the 
 true cause of those very evils which Lloyd Jones foolishly 
 charges on the religion of Christ: indeed this I have 
 already done in my Overthrow of Infidel Socialism. 
 
 Lloyd Jones says, page 42, that John Wesley wrote 
 against Catholic emancipation, and on page 1 14, he quotes 
 a sentence from an old edition of a tract, that I wrote 
 many years ago, in which he thinks I speak too strongly 
 of Voltaire and Carlile, and this to prove that Chris- 
 tianity produces persecution ! Did ever mortal hear 
 such arguments before ! John Wesley once, in sixty 
 years, wrote a pamphlet that Lloyd Jones thinks was not 
 as liberal as it should be — therefore the New Testament 
 causes persecution. Joseph Barker, when he was a youth, 
 wrote two sentences, which he thinks were rather strong, 
 which he left out in his next edition of his pamphlet — 
 therefore the Gospel is a system of persecution. And 
 these are the strong arguments of infidelity ! Because 
 the fire does not warm every corner of the house as soon 
 as it is kindled, the fire is to be blamed for all the cold- 
 ness in the country. Because the school-master does not 
 teach his scholars every thing in a day, he is to be consi- 
 dered the cause of all the ignorance in the world ! Such 
 is the reasoning of Lloyd Jones. When Socialism has 
 produced a few such men as Wesley, who nobly turned 
 aside his thoughts from ease and pleasure and selfish 
 interests, and gave himself, through the course of a long 
 life, to incredible and ceaseless labours and sufferings, to 
 promote the temporal and eternal happiness of the poor 
 and neglected, of his fellow men, — when Socialism ha$ 
 produced a few such men as Wesley, so noble, so cou- 
 
169 
 
 rageous, so disinterested, and withal so pure, that the 
 sharp malignant eye of infidelity can only find one spot 
 in all his character, and that a faint one ; I say, when 
 Socialism has produced a few such men as Wesley, who 
 by his disinterested labours has blessed all quarters of the 
 world, and secured a name for benevolence and purity 
 throughout all lands and throughout all time ; — when 
 Socialism has produced a few such characters as these, 
 then let it come before the world again, and men will 
 show it greater favour. 
 
 "It is all very well," says Lloyd Jones, on page 44, 
 " to say that we shall not find these things in the Gospel : 
 but I say the story of the miraculous conception is in the 
 Gospel," &c. Did ever mortal hear such reasoning 
 before ? The story of the miraculous conception is in the 
 Gospel, — therefore all people who persecute are taught to 
 persecute by the Gospel, Alas for humanity. 
 
 On the same page (44) Lloyd Jones says, " When a 
 man does not view ihinfifs in the same YvAit as we do, the 
 rational mode of proceeding is, to lay such evidence 
 before his mind as may lead him to change his views ; a 
 mode," he adds, " which the Gospel does not teach." 
 After all that I have seen of the blinding and corrupting 
 power of infidelity, I am still astonished at the reckless- 
 ness with which Lloyd Jones repeats his false charges 
 against the Gospel, and that in the face of persons who 
 can go to the Gospel and examine it for themselves. 
 The mode of proceeding towards those who differ from us, 
 mentioned by Lloyd Jones, is the mode taught by the 
 Gospel from first to last, (see page 45,) and it is the 
 ojily mode which the Gospel allows to be practised. If 
 Lloyd Jones will produce one single passage that teaches 
 any other mode, — if he will produce a single passage 
 from the whole New Testament that recommends any 
 thing like the dungeons recommended by Robert Owen, 
 called Physical, Intellectual and INIoral Hospitals, or 
 any passage recommending Christian conmmnities to 
 learn the use of arms, and to practise military move- 
 ments, in order to over-rule the minds and conduct of 
 mankind, let him do it ; if he cannot, and every body 
 p 
 
170 * 
 
 acquainted with the New Testament knows he cannot, 
 then let him come forwards Hke an honest man, and con- 
 fess his error or his guilt, in thus calumniating the 
 Gospel before the world. 
 
 What is said on page 65 by Lloyd Jones, against the 
 work of Beza, appears to me to be like the rest of his 
 facts ; I can find no proof that Beza wrote in favour of 
 Christian churches using persecution. If however he did 
 do so, it was Beza's own error, and not the fault of the 
 Gospel. 
 
 On page 55, Lloyd Jones says, that " since Christ 
 came there never was a tolerating government." What 
 does he mean ? Does he mean that our government 
 compels us all to adopt one set of opinions, and to follow 
 one kind of worship ? If so, every man in the country 
 can contradict him. Does he mean that there is no 
 government that has earned out toleration to perfection ? 
 Supposing this to be the case, is Christianity to be called 
 a persecuting system, because no government has car- 
 ried out its tolerant principles to perfection P R. Owen 
 acknowledges that iCmerica and England are the most 
 tolerant governments on earth, and yet these are the 
 countries in which Christianity is most prevalent. And 
 Lloyd Jones says, on page 6, that he is proud the day has 
 arrived, when we can come boldly and freely before the 
 public, and canvass every question that has any bearing, 
 directly or indirectly, upon human happiness, and do it 
 without any degree of fear as to our personal safety. Is 
 not this toleration ? 
 
 Is Lloyd Jones acquainted with the American govern- 
 ments which tolerated Robert Owen's schemes at New 
 Harmony ? Did he ever read the laws of the state of 
 Pennsylvania, as acted on for the first seventy years of 
 that state ? What does Lloyd Jones mean ? I think 
 he is attempting to deceive us, by using the word tolera- 
 tion in some new Socialist sense. Does he mean, that no 
 government is tolerant unless it will tolerate men in rapes, 
 and adulteries, and seductions, and unnatural crimes, 
 and child-murder ? This, I believe, is his meaning ; 
 this appears to me to be the toleration pleaded for by the 
 
171 
 
 Socialists in their writings, I wish Lloyd Jones would 
 speak his mind freely. 
 
 But if it were true that there had heen no tolerating 
 government since Christ came, it would prove nothing 
 against Christianity, unless it were also proved that Chris- 
 tianity is opposed to toleration. 
 
 On page 78, Lloyd Jones says that when he gave, on 
 the first night, a history of the proceedings of the early 
 Christians, he gave the texts of Scripture from the New 
 Testament, which they themselves t^uoted in support of such 
 proceedings. Now let me here remark, I. That the early 
 Christians did not persecute. 2. That those corrupt pro- 
 fessors whom he mentions, who in after ages did persecute, 
 did not ju'oduce those Scripture passages to siip]K)rt their 
 persecutions. When men hegan to persecute, they began 
 also to conceal the Scriptures from the public, well know- 
 ing that the Scriptures were against all persecution. 
 
 On page 81, Lloyd Jones says the popes attached a 
 very different meaning to the word "accursed" used in 
 Gal, i. 8, 9. But what does this prove ? If Robert 
 Owen should attach another meaning to the word, and say 
 it meant a " moral hospital," oi' a " complicated military 
 movement," what honest man would attempt to make the 
 Apostle or the Gospel answerable for his mistake ? I 
 wonder that any man should have the recklessness to 
 reason thus. 
 
 On page 81, Lloyd Jones says — " If they had been 
 supplied with a sufficiency of evidence, belief would have 
 followed." What will he assert next ? Who does not 
 know, that a man's belief does not depend upon the 
 amount of evidence which is offered him, but on the 
 attention and regard which he chooses to pay to that 
 evidence ? Offer the fullest evidence in the world to a 
 man who is wallowing in sensuality and drunkenness, 
 and it will have no effect on him whatever ; but offer 
 the same evidence to a man that is attending to his 
 duty as a rational and accountable being, and who is 
 desirous to know and obey the truth, and he will be 
 convinced at once. There has always been sufficient 
 <?vidence afforded of the truth of the Gospel, wherever it 
 
172 
 
 has been promulgated ; and when men with well-disposed 
 minds have attended to that evidence, they have been 
 convinced. But no evidence can convince a man that is 
 bent upon living in sin, and who disables and deranges 
 his mental powers by lewdness and intemperance. Evi- 
 dence is to the mind like light to the eye : all the light in 
 the world cannot make a man see that either shuts his eyes 
 or puts them out. If a man should say — " Give the man 
 light enough, and he will see," when he knew at the same 
 time that the man had put out his eyes, you would take 
 the man to be quibbling or else mad. No arguments will 
 have any effect upon dogs and swine, because they have 
 not capacities to take them in ; and there are some men 
 who so far imitate the dogs and the swine, that, as the 
 Saviour intimates, to offer them arguments or good advice, 
 would be worse than a waste of time. " Give not that 
 which is holy to the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls 
 before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and 
 turn again and rend you." (Matt. vii. 6.) It is no won- 
 der that such as follow the advice of Robert Owen, to 
 imitate the brutes, should at length be reduced to a level 
 with the brutes in point of capacity. But in vain will 
 be such attempt to lay the blame of their unbelief upon 
 a want of evidence. 
 
 On page 88, Lloyd Jones tells us that Luther sanc- 
 tioned persecution, and that Calvin wrote in its favour. 
 We answer, it would have been strange indeed if Luther 
 and Calvin, who had been trained up in ignorance of the 
 Gospel, under a system that in a great measure kept the 
 sacred writings in concealment, and set up man's traditions 
 in the place of Christ, — I say it would have been strange 
 if those great men had been perfect as soon as ever their 
 minds broke lose from the an ti -christian yoke. It is a 
 great honour to the Gospel that they had so little to do 
 with persecution ; and it is no dishonour to the Gospel, 
 but only to the evil system under which they had been bred, 
 that they were not quite perfect. But Melancthon, Lloyd 
 Jones said, could not condemn Calvin's conduct to Ser- 
 vetus. Indeed ; then if Lloyd Jones speaks the truth, 
 Melancthon once in his whole life got wrong,it seems. And 
 
173 
 
 SQy because a man in writing fifty books happens to let slip 
 one faulty expression, and because, in sixty years' good 
 conduct there is one flaw, Lloyd Jones would have us to 
 believe that the Gospel is a bad system. This is his argu- 
 ment. When such arguments as these will pass for demon- 
 strations, infidelity will begin to triumph. But liloyd Jones 
 talks about Melancthou's head. We would observe, that 
 a man's principles and practice determine the*fonn of his 
 head, so that he who was naturally fierce and bloody, shall, 
 by the influence of good religious principles and a good 
 conduct gi"Ounded thereon, become mild and charitable. 
 The organs of destructiveness and malevolence shall sink, 
 and the organs of benevolence and symj^athy shall rise. 
 " Since the introduction of Christianity into our country, 
 the general shape of the English head is altered," says 
 Combe ; '* destructiveness is smaller, and the opposite organ 
 larger." So with Melancthon : that beautiful specimen 
 of benevolent formation is probably owing to the influence 
 of Christianity, that system of love and tenderness to 
 which he had so uniformly subjected his soul and his con- 
 duct. What Lloyd Jones says about the council of 
 Geneva, ap])ears to be another of his own fictions. What 
 he says about V. Gentilis also appears to be false. 
 
 On page 98, Lloyd Jones tells us that the increase of 
 toleration, and the numerous improvements in the state 
 of society, which we attribute to the influence of Chris- 
 tianity, are the effects of philosophy. The folly and weak- 
 ness of this device of Lloyd Jones may be easily made 
 manifest. L How is it that philosophy has not produced 
 those happy improvements anywhere but w^iere Christia- 
 nity has been received ? Go amongst the nations where 
 Christianity is unknown, and you will find philosophy 
 has done nothing there. Go back to those ages when Chris- 
 tianity was unknown in our own country, and philosophy 
 did nothing for us then. How is it that philosophy does no 
 good anywhere but where Christianity prevails, and that 
 the good that is done in any country is in proportion t© 
 the regard which is paid to Christianity in that country ? 
 How is it that philosophy has done more for the Metho- 
 dists, the Q^iakers, and the Moravians, who seldom mea- 
 p 2 
 
174 
 
 tion philosophy, than for other parts of the community 
 who make gi'eat boasts of philosophy, and pay little res- 
 pect to religion ? Is it not plain that Lloyd Jones's 
 assertion is a mere device, or a flat contradiction to the 
 truth ? 
 
 But to make the folly and emptiness of Lloyd Jones's 
 talk about philosophy still plainer, we would observe, 
 that there are but three kinds of philosophy. 1. That of 
 the ancient Pagans. 2. That of modern infidels. And 3. 
 The philosophy of Christianity. Let us see which of 
 these kinds of philosophy has produced all those good 
 effects of which we have been speaking. 
 
 And first, with respect to the philosophy of the ancient 
 Heathens : this could not produce the good eflfects in 
 question. It could not do away with persecution, for the 
 greatest philosophers of Greece inculcated intolerance as 
 necessary to the welfare of the state. Maecenas, in his 
 counsels to Augustus, directs him to *' honour the gods 
 according to the customs of his fathers, and compel others 
 to honour them : to take and punish those who innovate 
 in religion, and to suffer no Atheists or magicians." Even 
 the laws which the philosophers of Athens and Rome 
 framed for imaginary republics, were intolerant. Plato 
 does not give his citizens liberty of worship, and Cicero 
 expressly forbids them to have any other gods than those 
 of the state. We might mention Tacitus, Pliny, Marcus 
 Antoninus, and many more of the gTeat philosophers of 
 ancient times, all of them opposed to toleration ; all of 
 them favouring persecution, and many of them besmearing 
 their hands in the blood of the noblest and best of men. As 
 to the abolition of slavery, the amelioration of slavery, the 
 relief of the poor, and the general improvement and eleva- 
 tion of the human species, these were things which the 
 great philosophers among the gentiles never dreamed of. 
 On the other hand, they taught the most unclean and 
 debasing sentiments, and practised the most infamous 
 vices without shame. Theft, the exposure of infants, 
 a community of wives, unnatural crimes, the resistance 
 of injuries, and other evils and abominations too numerous 
 to be mentioned, were inculcated and practised by them. 
 
175 
 
 Lloyd Jones will not choose to attribute much good to 
 this class of i)hilosophers, surely- 
 
 The next class of" philosophers are the infidel philoso- 
 phers. Those are the men of whom Lloyd Jones makes 
 his boast. Let us see what good is to he looked for from 
 this sort of philosophy. L If we examine the doctrines 
 of R. Owen, and of those other infidel philosophers 
 which come nearest to the system of Robert Owen and 
 Lloyd Jones, we shall find their doctrines to be nearly as 
 follows: — \. That there is no God. 2. That man is a 
 creature of circumstances. 3. That men ought to indulge 
 their passions and propensities without restraint. 4. That 
 man is not res])onsible for his conduct; that a murderer 
 and a kidnapper is no more to be blamed than the noblest 
 philanthropists and martyrs. 5. That fornication and 
 adultery are lawful and right, and that marriage is an unna- 
 tural crime. 6. That there is no benevolent and intelligent 
 ])rovidence. 7. That there is no future life of consciousness 
 for man. 8. That it is lawful to lie, or to do any thing else 
 that they may think right. 9. That self-murder is lawful 
 and right. 10. That parents are not fit to bring up their own 
 children. IL That man is a mere animal machine. 12. 
 That a desire to commit adultery, fornication, or any other 
 thing is no more shameful than to desire bread when 
 hungry. 13. That though men are not to blame for 
 murder, theft, &c., it is nevertheless right to put them into 
 moral, physical, and intellectual hospitals, to whip, starve, 
 chain, or hang them, either for their own good, or to furnish 
 good circumstances to form the characters of others. 14. 
 That men and women should herd together like brute 
 beasts; that promiscuous intercourse, like that which 
 prevails among other animals, is the only proper kind of 
 sexual intercourse. 15. That infidels should form them- 
 selves into armed communities, learn the use of fire arms 
 and other arms, as well as the more complicated military 
 movements, that they may be able not only to defend them- 
 selves, but also, b}' the terror and force of anns, compel all 
 others to abandon their religion, and join themselves 
 with the armed infidels. These and other doctrines which 
 decency cannot name, are the leading doctrines of modern 
 
176 
 
 infidel philosophers. These are the doctrines of Robei't 
 Owen, the founder of the sect to which Lloyd Jones 
 belongs. I will leave the public to judge how much good 
 this kind of philosophy is likely to produce. What sort 
 of effects it has produced thus far, one may learn from the 
 lives of the leading philosophers themselves, and from the 
 immoral characters of the leading persons in connexion 
 with the Social institutions in our country. The lewd- 
 ness, the bitterness, the deadly and implacable hatred and 
 malignity, the persecuting fury, the misanthropy, the 
 ungovernable enmity against religion, the cruelty and 
 blood which are unfolded in the history of this system of 
 philosophy, form the darkest and most horrible pages of 
 the history of mankind.* 
 
 The only remaining system of philosophy is Chris- 
 tianity. This system of philosophy, we are ready 
 enough to acknowledge, is the cause of all those blessed 
 improvements which have been effected in the world for 
 the last eighteen hundred years. The great founder of 
 this system was Jesus Christ, and his great principles of 
 truth, and temperance, and charity, are known to the very 
 children in the streets. The history of this kind of philo- 
 sophy is the history of beneficence and purity from first to 
 last. Knowledge and freedom and peace and temperance, 
 all temporal and spiritual blessings have followed its 
 steps ; and still to whatever country it goes, it carries in 
 its train a little heaven. This is the philosophy that 
 inspired Erasmus, and Grotius, and Luther, and Me- 
 lancthon, and Hale, and Taylor, and Milton, and Bacon, 
 and Boyle, and Newton, and Locke, and Fox, and Penn, 
 and Howard, and Clarkson, and Raikes, and Hannay, 
 and Reynolds, and Wesley, and vScwartz, and Wilberforce, 
 and Fry, and Eddy, and Williams, and thousands. of 
 others, who have consecrated their wealth, their time, 
 their health, and their life to the improvement of their 
 fellow men, to the diffusion of truth, and liberty, and 
 
 * For particulars as to the immoral and cruel tendency of the 
 philosophy of R. Owen and his followers, see " The Overthrow 
 of Infidel Socialism," second edition, and " The Gospel Trium- 
 phant," &c. 
 
177 
 
 peace, and joy, to the regeneration and salvation of man- 
 kind. This is the philosophy that is at present exerting 
 its salutary and renovating inliuence upon all the institu- 
 tions of our country, and upon almost all the nations of the 
 earth. This is the only philosophy that has ever essen- 
 tially benefited mankind. All the wise and salutary 
 principles that are to be found in other systems, are but 
 so many rays proceeding from this sun : this is the foun- 
 tain of all the true philosophical light of a moral kind 
 in the universe. 
 
 What then does Lloyd Jones's objection amount to ? 
 It is a mere play upon words. It is as if a man should 
 say, It is not the sun that makes the day; the day is 
 caused by the light which flows from a vast luminous 
 body in the heavens. What luminous body is there in 
 the heavens to give us so much light, except the sun ? 
 The whole is a mere evasion, an attempt to darken a plain 
 truth, by words of doubtful meaning. 
 
 On pages 96 and 97, Lloyd Jones says several things 
 in favour of Voltaire. I am soiTy to be obliged so often to 
 correct Lloyd Jones, but the w^hole is a misrepresentation. 
 The idea of Voltaire building a colony to keep the Pro- 
 testants and Catholics from each other, is monstrous. 
 But if Voltaire had done so, for Lloyd Jones to suppose that 
 no Christian had done as much, shows him to be strangely 
 ignorant of Christian history. W^hat did Penn do ? 
 What did the Pilgrim Fathers do ? W^hat did Wesley 
 do ? To think of comparing Voltaire with Christian 
 worthies, is out of all character. As Voltaire appears to 
 be Lloyd Jones's best man, I will give a brief outline of 
 his history. 
 
 He was educated by the Jesuits at the school of Louis 
 le Grand, and very early showed a leaning to licentious- 
 ness and infidelity. When he left the Jesuits, his father 
 sent him to the schools of law, but he formed a con- 
 nexion with a number of leading infidels, and all his 
 father's efforts to induce him to devote himself to some 
 regular employment were in vain. He soon became a 
 proficient in lewdness and infidelity. To break him off 
 from his associates, his father sent him into Holland, 
 
178 
 
 but there he seduced a young lady, and conducted him- 
 self in other respects so badly, that he was sent back to 
 France in disgrace. 
 
 He now pursued clandestine authorship, and meeting 
 both with protection and persecution, he rose to some emi- 
 nence as a wit. He went on in feasting and wantonness, 
 and writing anon\^nous pamphlets. He formed an ac- 
 tjuaintance with Rousseau, and quarrelled with him,, and 
 they were never friends more. He is next found throwing 
 his " Henriad," a poem he had composed, into the fire, 
 in a rage, because some friends whom he had called 
 together to hear it read before its publication, suggested 
 some improvements. He next quarrels with the 
 Chevalier de Rohan, and learas fencing that he may 
 challenge him to a duel, and is sent to the Bastile six 
 months for his pains* 
 
 He next came to England, associated with some 
 English infidels, got a large subscription made for him, 
 which laid the foundation of his fortune. He then 
 returned to France, and by lottery gambling and some 
 successful speculations in African wheat and Spanish 
 commerce, greatly increased his stock of money. By army 
 contracts he gained eight hundred thousand francs. He 
 now pursued his work of authorship briskly, but wrote 
 such works for obscenity and blasphemy, that he con- 
 cealed himself and his name. 
 
 He now retired with a lewd ^^'oman, of the name of 
 Chatelet, to Cirey, with whom he lived on terms of in- 
 famous intimacy. Here he feasted, and wrote, and 
 revelled in uncleanness, and quarrelled with his harlot, 
 corresponded with the infidel King of Prussia, was very 
 miserable, and had the mortification to see his harlot run 
 off with M. de S. Lambert. 
 
 He returned to Paris, visited the King of Prussia, got 
 distinctions, a good salary, gay suppers, but showing 
 himself over greedy, he disgusted the king, quaiTelled 
 with him, abused the king's literary friends, composed a 
 libel, called " The Private Life of Frederick II.," toge- 
 ther with other libels, returned to. Paris, but never 
 forgave his infidel brother king Frederick. 
 
179 
 
 He now took up his residence at Feniey, at the age 
 of sixty, where he lived for the last twenty years of his 
 life. Here he educated a daughter of Corneille the 
 dramatist, and got her married : he assisted the family of 
 Galas, and of Sirven. Two young officers, one of them 
 De Barre, were accused of blasphemy and obscenity in 
 their orgies, and with having destroyed a cross at 
 Abbeville. These young men were condemned to death, 
 and De Barre actually suffered. One of Voltaire's works 
 was found in the young man's possession, and had served 
 to corrupt him. Wlien Voltaire cried out against the 
 sentence, it was justly answered, that the guilt also 
 attached to him, for having corru])ted the young men's 
 imaginations by his filthy and impious writings. 
 
 His chief occupation at Ferney was a bitter and cease- 
 less war against the religion of Christ. Sometimes it 
 was a large book, sometimes a penny pamphlet ; now a 
 treatise on divinity, and then a tale or a song ; but hos- 
 tilities never ceased. Let it be remarked, that it was 
 after he was sixty years of age that his infidelity became 
 most shameless, his ribaldry most insolent, and his ob- 
 scenity most offensive. Yet with all his zeal for pollu- 
 tion and impiety, such was his timidity, or his conscious- 
 ness that he was wrong, that all his attacks on Christianity 
 came out with false names, and when they w^ere attributed 
 to him, he would deny them, even with an oath. " V^anity 
 and personal feeling," says my author, " mixed with all 
 his doctrines, and coloured his best works. A disposi- 
 tion to make light of every thing spoils all. He is also 
 ever wanting in impartiality ; the ])romotion of infidelity^ 
 is ever kept in view, and truth and history are made to 
 bend to this. ' I am tired,' said this poor creature, ' of 
 hearing it said, that twelve men were sufficient to establish 
 the Christian religion ; I am anxious to show that it 
 requires but one to destroy it !' " Poor man ! 
 
 His opposition to Christianity, as one of his biogra- 
 phers observes, did not arise from a love to truth or to man- 
 kind, but from the spirit of misanthropy and sensuality. 
 His whole conduct was unworthy of one who pretended 
 to be a reformer of mankind. " Not only was the moral 
 
180 
 
 conduct of Voltaire censurable," says one of his biogra- 
 phers, " and his conversation licentious, but his writings 
 were replete with gross indecency and insulting outrage 
 to all that is modest and uncorrupted. Nor was it merely 
 by the indulgence of sensuality that he was unfit to serve 
 as a model : he was subject to anger, and envy, and 
 hatred, and was full of malice, falsehood, and hypo- 
 crisy. Sometimes he would be seen tearing with his 
 teeth a stupid pamphlet, written to depreciate his genius ; 
 at another time we find him writing anonymous libels 
 against men whom in public he flattered. And as to 
 his pretensions to benevolence, what was he ready to 
 sacrifice, or even to risk, for the welfare of mankind ? 
 By the course he took he gained more power, riches, and 
 fame, than he could possibly have acquired in any other 
 way. As for any serious danger to his life or liberty, 
 there was none ; but when the smallest danger appeared, 
 even of his having to encounter the ecclesiastics, what 
 was his conduct ? He fled from the danger, made the 
 most hypocritical submissions, feigned what he did not 
 believe, and professed himself a disciple of that religion 
 which he daily insulted. In writing to Mr. and Mile. 
 d'Argental, he says, — ' My angels, if I had a hundred 
 thousand men, I know what I would do : but as I have 
 them not, I shall take the Sacrament at Easter, and you 
 may call me hypocrite as long as you please. No, 
 my dear marquis, no ! the modern Socrates will not 
 di'ink hemlock.' " In the same sense he wrote that, ** if he 
 lived at Abbeville, he would take the Sacrament every 
 fortnight." (Correspondance.) Is this the man that is to 
 be compared with Him who laid down his life for man- 
 kind, and freely sealed the truth with his blood ? Is this 
 the man who is exalted above those martyrs to the interests 
 of truth and human happiness, of which the history of 
 Christianity is full ? 
 
 That Voltaire did some good I do not pretend to deny : 
 the most malignant and selfish and debauched characters 
 in the universe will sometimes do a kind turn. Nero 
 himself was kind on occasions, and murderers and thieves 
 are kind and honest when it suits their interests, and it 
 
181 
 
 will sometimes happen that men are placed in such cir- 
 cumstances, that they are obliged to do some seeming act 
 of kindness, or fall into disgrace. This was the case with 
 Voltaire ; and hence, from the midst of a long life of 
 pollution, and deceit, and rage, and malignity, there 
 appear some particles of better seeming things, like here 
 and there a sjiark amidst the smoky clouds of a troubled 
 volcano. But none that had any regard to truth and 
 decency would ever think of comparing such a character 
 with the peaceful, the pure, the chaste, the benevolent 
 and godlike lives of such men as Howard, and Boyle, 
 and Penn, and Wesley, and thousands more, who have 
 made it their business and felt it their happiness to toil 
 and plan and suiier for the welfare of their fellow men. 
 
 I may just observe in conclusion, that what Lloyd 
 Jones says about founding a colony to keep the Pro- 
 testants and Catholics from each other, is the wildest 
 romance ; he never did any such thing. Lloyd Jones 
 must think his readei-s awfully ignorant indeed, or he 
 must be strangely regardless of his character, or he could 
 never hazard such unfounded statements. There is 
 scarce one statement of Lloyd Jones's in reference to 
 matters of history, which will bear investigation. 
 
 If the Bible be plain and easy to be understood, how 
 is it, asks Lloyd Jones (page 97,) that men do not 
 agree about its meaning ? We answer, 1. All have not 
 the same natural strength of understanding. 2. All have 
 not the same helps. 3. All have not the same time. 
 4. All are not of the same age. 5. All are not equally 
 fond of truth. 6. All are not equally diligent in their 
 endeavours to understand. 7. Some do not like the 
 truth at all ; it does not suit their vicious tastes and 
 ways ; and they therefore love darkness rather than light, 
 because their deeds are evil. 
 
 On page 23, Lloyd Jones says, " I am sorry Mr. 
 Barker did not live a thousand years ago. Enlightened 
 Christians then existed, and then persecuted, because 
 they thought those passages [i. e. the passages quoted 
 by him] sanctioned it;" and on page 78, he says, 
 " When I gave you, last night, a history of the proceed- 
 Q 
 
S8I 
 1^ 
 
 ings of tlie early Christians, I gave you the texts of 
 Scriptiiro from the New Testament, which they them- 
 selves quoted in support of such proceedings." But 
 mark how soon this man can contradict himself. On 
 page 97, he speaks as follows :—" But Mr. Barker 
 says I told you, that up to the eighth century, they 
 quoted texts in favour of persecution. I told you na 
 such thing. I told you they acted as religious men, 
 and persecuted. Beza was the only man I spoke of 
 quoting them." On page 23, he says, that a thousand 
 years ago, that is, up to the eighth century, enlightened 
 Christians persecuted, because they thought those pas- 
 sages sanctioned it. On page 78, he says again, " The 
 early Christians quoted those texts of Scripture in support 
 of such proceedings," meaning persecutions ; and yet he 
 says, on page 97, that he told us no such thing ; but that 
 Beza, a man, be it remembered, that lived only aljout three 
 hundred years ago, was the only man he spoke of quot- 
 ing those passages. What credit can be given to a man 
 who can so strangely contradict himself? 
 
 I would further observe if Beza, who did not live till 
 near fifteen hundred years after Christ, was the first 
 who quoted those texts as favourable to persecution, 
 what becomes of all Lloyd Jones's argument ? How 
 could those passages cause persecution among the early 
 Christians, if they were never quoted, or understood as 
 favourable to persecution till the days of Beza ? It is 
 plain that Lloyd Jones argues and talks at random, 
 without considering or caring what he says. 
 
 On page 98, Lloyd Jones tells us that '' the whole 
 number of persons massacred on account of religion 
 during the space of fourteen hundred years, amounts to 
 upwards of fifty millions." He might have added, 
 that most of the persons thus murdered were Christians, 
 and that such were their meekness and charity, that they 
 prayed for their murderers. How thankful ought we to 
 be for the religion of Christ, which is so rapidly bring- 
 ing those massacres to an end ! 
 
 Lloyd Jones also asks, on page 98, " Where has Chris- 
 tianity overturned priestcraft ?" I answer. Everywhere 
 
183 
 
 where it has been received and practised. Lloyd Jones 
 cannot mention a single relic of priestcraft, which the 
 Gospel allows. Bat priestcraft is not abolished in France, 
 >Spain, &c., he savs. We answer. No, because men do 
 not ])ractise the Gosjiel in those countries. Priestcraft 
 is abolished as far as the Gosi)el is practised, and when 
 the Gospel is fully and generally preached, it will be 
 abolished altogether. 
 
 On page 90, Lloyd Jones quotes Howitt on the 
 cruelties of the Spaniards in South America. I also 
 will quote Howitt, to show that he did not, as Lloyd 
 Jones foolishly does, attribute those atrocities to Chris- 
 danity, but to the want of it, " Christ appeared," says 
 Howitt, " a character and a religion were placed before 
 the eves of men hitherto inconceivable in the bounty 
 and philanthropy of their nature. Unlike all other 
 founders of a religious faith, Christ had no selfishness, 
 no desire of dominance; and his system, unlike all 
 other systems of worship, was bloodless, boundlessly 
 benevolent, inexpressibly pure, and most marvellous of 
 all, went to break all bonds both of body and soul, and 
 to cast down every temporal and every spiritual tyranny. 
 It was a system calculated for the whole wide universe; 
 adapted to embrace men of all climes, all ages, all 
 ranks of life, or intellect; for the rich and for the poor; 
 for the savage and the civilized ; for the fool and the 
 philosopher; for man, woman, and child; a religion 
 which, recognizing the grand doctrine, that * God made 
 of one blood all nations of the earth,' represented the 
 Almighty as the Father, and all men as brethren born to 
 one universal law, — to the same inalienable rights, — 
 to the same eternal hope. He himself was the living 
 personification of his principles. Demolishing the most 
 inveterate principles of men, by appearing a poor man 
 amongst the poor, — by tearing from aristocratic pride 
 and priestly insolence their masks of most orthodox 
 assurance, bv proclaiming that the truth which he taught 
 should make all men free, — by declaring that the Gentiles 
 iorded it over, and oppressed one another, but that it 
 5?hoald not be so with his followers, — by putting down 
 
184 
 
 with indignation spiritual pride in high places, and calling 
 the poor and afflicted his brethren, and the objects of his 
 tenderest regard, he laid the foundations of civil and 
 religious freedom, of mental power growing out of un- 
 restrained mental energies, and of love and knowledge 
 co-equal in extension with the world. This perfect free- 
 dom of universal man he granted by leaving no decrees ; 
 but merely gi'eat and everlasting principles, intelligible 
 to the mind and conscience of the whole human race ; 
 and on which, men in all countries might found institu- 
 tions most consonant to their wants. By declaring that 
 ' whenever two or three were met together in his 
 name, he would be in the midst of them,' he cut off for 
 ever every claim, the most specious, of priestly dominance ; 
 and by expressing his unqualified and indignant abhorrence 
 of every desire of his disciples * to call down fire from 
 heaven upon his enemies,* or to forbid those to preach 
 and work miracles in his name, who did not immediately 
 follow him, and conform to his notions, he left to his 
 church a light more resplendent than that of the sun, on 
 the subject of non-interference with the liberty and pre- 
 rogatives of conscience." Thus far W. Howitt, who 
 knew how to distinguish the religion of Christ from the 
 wicked pretensions and cruel deeds of infidel and bad 
 men. 
 
 *' What half century has produced more wars than the 
 last ?" asks Lloyd Jones, on page 99. And in what half 
 century had infidel philosophers and statesmen so much 
 *to do with the affairs of nations ? The horrors of the 
 last century should teach us what we are to expect when 
 power falls into the hands of unbelievers. Let any one 
 compare the history of Europe when power was in the 
 hands of such men as the infidel Frederick, and the 
 infidel philosophers of France, with the history of Phila- 
 delphia, for seventy years, while under the government of 
 Christians, and you find the secret of the world's trou- 
 bles, and you see that the only hope of mankind is in 
 the spread of the principles of the Gospel. 
 
 On page 102, Lloyd Jones charges me with saying 
 that the Puritans did not persecute. I said no such 
 
185 
 
 \hing. 1 said they understood and practised the Scrip- 
 tures better than their predecessors, and that they there- 
 lore persecuted less ; and Lloyd Jones proves the truth of 
 this, lor in the history of the American Puritans, extend- 
 ing over two or three hundreds of years, he can only find 
 two or three instances of persecution, and in those in- 
 stances, only a few individuals were concerned, out of a 
 number of millions, and those not Christians. 
 
 On page 112, Lloyd Jones refers to the Agrarian la\\s 
 as a proof that the Roman authorities had some charity 
 for the poor of the emjjire. A few observations on those 
 laws will show tbat they had nothing whatever to do with 
 charity for the poor. 
 
 I. Those laws decreed the distribution only of a portion 
 of the public lands, they had nothing to do with the land 
 or the property of individuals. Su))posing therefore the 
 Roman governors to have passed these laws to please or 
 benefit the poor, there was nothing in the affair like what 
 we may call the exercise of charity, because they w^re 
 not giving away any thing of their own ; they were simply- 
 giving a portion of the public lands, while they kept 
 their own to themselves, and kept also in their hands a 
 portion of the public lands besides. 2. Those public 
 lands, distributed by the Agrarian law, were chiefly 
 the lands of other states. When the Romans had con- 
 quered a people in war, they used to take from them 
 their lands or a portion of their lands, and these were 
 the lands which were distributed among the Roman 
 citizens. It is poor charity that is founded in robbery. 
 If there had been either justice or charity, such as the 
 Gospel requires, those lands would have been restored to 
 their irijured owners. 3. Those lands were not distributed 
 to the poor of the Roman empire, but only to the poorer 
 or less wealthy kind of the citizens, or freemen. Just as 
 if a piece of connnon land were taken in near Manchester, 
 and given, not to the poor people generally, but to the 
 voters only. This would leave nine -tenths of the poor 
 just where they were. 4. Those laws were passed by the 
 influence of those voters themselves, and the assistawct: 
 of two or three or a verv few of the wealthier party, wlio 
 Q 2 
 
186 
 
 wished, by favouring such measures, to bribe the free- 
 men to vote for them and support them in their political 
 measures. It was not so much the exercise of charity, 
 therefore, as on the one hand policy, and on the other, 
 a selfish appropriation of stolen property. The freemen 
 were the soldiers, and the soldiers having conquered 
 the land, were resolved that the chief captains and rulers 
 should not have all, but that they would have a share ; 
 and as they were voters in making laws, they could ac- 
 complish their will. 
 
 And this was the origin and character af the Agrarian 
 laws. 1. The lands were stolen. 2. They were not 
 given to the poor people, but to the citizens, that is, 
 in fact, the soldiers and the rulers of the state. 3. 
 They were given to the citizens by themselves. The 
 truth is, as I have stated it to be, the poor, both among 
 the Romans and other nations, were utterly unprovided 
 for. No such thing as provision for the poor appears 
 ever to have been thought of among the Gentiles till 
 Christianity began to exert its happy influence among 
 them. The idea of improving and regenerating the human 
 family originated with the religion of the Bible; the 
 great and glorious plan never entered the human mind 
 till the religion of heaven inspired it ; and infidels are 
 indebted to the Gospel for the very words — salvation, 
 regeneration, &c. ; the thoughts, the spirit, the language, 
 and the deeds of benevolence have this sole origin, 
 the religion of Heaven. 4. No one gave a pennyworth 
 of his own in the affair. Where then is the charity of 
 those Romans ? The whole affair was nothing more than, 
 1. A robbery of the weak; and 2. A distribution of the 
 plunder among the robbers. Suppose our goverament 
 should go and conquer the French, and take from them 
 half of their lands, and share those lands among the 
 soldiers that fought the battles, and among the members 
 of the House of Commons and their constituents ; 
 would you call this charity ? Just such is the charity of 
 the Agrarian laws, to which Lloyd Jones refers. (See 
 Universal History, vol. xi. page 425, and xii. 403, &c.) 
 
 On page 112 vve are told that among the Americans 
 
187 
 
 there are persons who profess Christianity and yet hold 
 men in slavery. And what does this prove ? Not that 
 Christianity causes slavery, but that some men act in- 
 consistently, and that Christianity has not destroyed all 
 the slavery in the world in one day. American slavery 
 is dying, and it is Christianity alone that has given it its 
 mortal wound. But a majority of a Methodist Conference 
 voted against what is called abolition. What then ? Did 
 they do as Christianity taught them? Does Christianity 
 speak against abolition ? We can mention hundreds if 
 not thousands of Conferences that have voted for aboli- 
 tion, and which were taught to vote for the abolition 
 by the Gospel. 
 
 W^e have then a tale from Horton .James about a 
 missionary riding on tlie backs of four black men, when 
 there were horses plenty to ride on. This whole tale 
 carries the marks of falsehood on its very face. Why 
 should a missionary prefer riding on four men's backs 
 to riding on a horse ? The story about the population 
 dwindling to almost nothing, is contradicted by every one 
 that has visited them for many years past. Some of the 
 South Sea islanders degenerated, I have no doubt, after 
 their discovery, in consequence of the introduction of 
 intoxicating drinks by ungodly and unchristian men ; but 
 since the visits of missionaries they have improved in all 
 respects, and intoxicating drinks are excluded from their 
 islands. The whole story about Horton James is a 
 fabrication. But if it were true, would it prove any 
 thing against Christianity ? A missionary might be 
 carried on the backs of four black men without any hann. 
 So thankful are the South Sea islanders for the blessings 
 of Christianity, that many of them would not only carry 
 them on their backs, if needful, but even risk their lives for 
 their sakes. When J. Williams happened to intimate to 
 a chief of the Navigators' Islands, that he was tired, he 
 was unexpectedly lifted off the ground instantly, and 
 borne along the crowd with delight ; and so anxious were 
 the natives to testify their respect to him, that those who 
 Gould not get hold of a leg or an arm, pressed round him 
 to support his body with tlieir fingers. Perhaps Horton 
 
188 
 
 James saw something like this, and was vexed, as many 
 an infidel voyager has since been, to find the missionaries 
 so much beloved, and the people so much improved that 
 tliey cannot persuade them to join with them in sensu- 
 ality and crime. 
 
 But one of the Social missionaries at Leamington had 
 to fly through the window of the room where he was lectur- 
 ing, says Lloyd Jones. I do not wonder at it. No one 
 could hear a lecturer denouncing marriage, recommending 
 universal and unrestrained prostitution, and other hoiTors 
 and abominations of infidel Socialism, without excitement; 
 and when people have learned enough of Christianity to be 
 shocked at debaucher3^,and not enough to imitate the meek- 
 ness of Christ, they would naturally enough make some- 
 thing to do when they heard for the first time the monstrous 
 and unnatural doctrines of Socialism. And then again, 
 the lecturer was perhaps afraid before he was hurt, like 
 his brother Voltaire. " The wicked flee when no one 
 pursueth; but the righteous are bold as a lion." It is 
 very possible that the lecturer might run out at the 
 window, but did any body run after him ? And if any 
 people did run after him, was it the Gospel that sent 
 them ? 
 
 But I once spoke strongly against Voltaire, therefore 
 Christianity is an uncharitable system, argues Lloyd 
 Jones, page 115. When will Lloyd Jones have done 
 with such arguments ? I might just as well say, the trees 
 in my garden are not as big as it is possible for them to 
 be, therefore the soil in which they grow is bad ; or my 
 children are not yet full grown men and women, there- 
 fore the food which they eat is poison, and there is no 
 such thing as health in the world. What reasoning this 
 would be thought, and yet this is the staple logic of my 
 opponent. Because I once in seventeen years wrote a 
 strong though true expression of a man who laboured to 
 murder the hopes and joys of the world, therefore Chris- 
 tianity is a wicked system. Alas for infidelity, if these 
 are its props ! All hail, Christianity, if these are the 
 woi-st weapons that thine enemies can wield against thee ! 
 
 But I have referred to things without a date, says Lloyd , 
 
189 
 
 Jones, and have given no proofs of the beneficial influ- 
 ence of Christianity. 
 
 I answer. This is not true ; in many cases I have given 
 dates; and in all cases the dates can be given. If dates 
 and authorities are wanted, I refer to " Ryan's History of 
 the beneficial Effects of Christianity," to "Bishop Por- 
 teus on the Effects of Christianity," to " Cave's Pri- 
 mitive Christianity," to the histories of Methodism, to 
 " Dymond's Essays on Morality," to " Claikson's Por- 
 traiture of Quakerism," to " Williams's Missionary 
 Enterprise in the South Seas," to the " History of tlie 
 Moravian Missions," and to the histories of Missions 
 and of the Church generally. From Williams's work I 
 will give a few extracts, which will tend to show in what 
 manner the Gospel has operated on the islands of the 
 South Seas, and in what way it must operate on all 
 countries where it is sincerely and generally received and 
 reduced to practice. 
 
 " The natives of the South Seas were proverbial for 
 their intellectual degi'adation and their cruel and ferocious 
 habits, and yet, since the introduction of Christianity 
 among them, their intellectual and moral character is 
 entirely changed, and the people who used to be the 
 terror or hoiTor of mankind, are now become the objects 
 of general admiration. There are the Tahitian and 
 Society Islands, — the Sandwich Island group, — the Aus- 
 tral Islands, — the Panmolu, the Gambier, and the Mar- 
 quesan Isles, — together with the Harvey, the Navigators' 
 and the Friendly Islands, the greater part of the po])ula- 
 tion of which have abandoned idolatry, with all its 
 barbarous practices, its honid rites, and superstitious 
 customs. Their sanguinary wars have ceased ; their 
 altars are no more stained with the blood of human 
 beings, offered up in sacrifice ; and mothers have ceased 
 to destroy their innocent babes." ( Missionary Enterprise 
 in the South Sea Islands, by John Williams-, p. 9.) 
 
 But the habits and character of the inhabitants of 
 those islands, previous to the introduction of Chris- 
 tianity, and the happy change which Christianity has 
 produced, may be learned from a few facts: — " I 
 
190 
 
 visited Hervey's Island in 1823, intending to place a 
 native teacher there, as I expected to find a considerable 
 population there ; but on learning that, by their frequent 
 and exterminating wars, they had reduced themselves to 
 about sixty in number, I did not fulfil my intention. 
 Some six or seven years after this I visited the same 
 island again, and found that this miserable remnant of 
 the former population had fought so frequently and des- 
 perately, that the only survivors were five men, three 
 women, and a few children, and at that period there was 
 a contention among them as to which should be king. 
 
 " Mauke is a small low island, discovered by myself 
 and Mr. Bourne, in 1823. It is about fifteen miles in 
 circumference. By an invasion of a large fleet of canoes, 
 laden with warriors from a neighbouring island, about 
 three years prior to our amval, the population, previously 
 considerable, was, by the dreadful massacre that ensued, 
 reduced to about three hundred. Mitiaro is a still smaller 
 island, of the same description. By famine and invasion 
 this island has likewise been almost depopulated, there 
 not being one hundred persons remaining.'' (Williams's 
 Missionary Enterprise, page 17.) By the influence 
 of Christianity those desolating wars have entirely 
 ceased, and the inhabitants neither slaughter one another, 
 nor live in fear of murderous invaders from their neigh- 
 bouring islanders. 
 
 Rurutu was an island of savages, but behold the 
 change effected there by the Gospel. " Some time after 
 the introduction of Cbristianity into Rarntu, Captain 
 Chase, who commanded an American whaler, and who 
 was in the habit of touching frequently at Raiatea for 
 refreshment, determined, on his last visit to us, to call 
 at Rurutu, on his way to America, in order to procure a 
 supply of yams, when, unfortunately, his vessel was 
 wrecked upon the rocks. The natives, who would for- 
 merly have devoured the wrecked mariners and plundered 
 the wreck, now, under the influence of those better 
 principles which the Gospel had taught them, aflbrded 
 ihe crew all the assistance in their power, from the 
 moment the ship struck upon the rocks. When landing 
 
m 
 
 things from the ship, they were put into the hands of the 
 natives, and canied up to the native mission house, a 
 distance of half a mile, and not a single article of 
 clothing was taken from any man belonging to the ship, 
 though they had it in their ])Ower to have plundered them 
 of every thing that was landed. While the captain and 
 his crew remained on shore themselves, the natives 
 treated them with the utmost kindness, and did their 
 ntmost to make them comfortable." 
 
 This island was visited by D. Tyerman and G. Bennet, 
 some time after the introduction of the Gospel. They 
 saw in every direction the pleasing effects of the religion 
 of Christ. The ])eople were decently clothed and living 
 iu neat-looking white houses, and were blessed with plenty 
 and ])eace. In the place of worship they were struck with 
 the orderly behaviour of the ])eople, as well as with some 
 signal trophies of the word of God. " These were spears," 
 as they observe, " not indeed beaten into pruning-hooks, 
 but converted into staves to support the balustrade of the 
 pulpit staircase; for the ])eople here learn war no more, 
 but all, submitting to the Prince of Peace, have cast 
 away their instruments of cruelty and their idols together. 
 So great a change effected in so short a time is almost 
 beyond credibility ; but we witnessed it witli our own 
 eves." (Williams's JMissionarv Enteqirise, &c. p. 45 — 
 
 Speaking of Aitutaki, another island, John Williams 
 says, after he had witnessed the happy changes produced 
 among the natives by the Gospel — " Little did I ex|)ect 
 to see so much accomplished in so short a time. Eigh- 
 teen months ago they were the wildest people I had ever 
 witnessed ; now they had become mild and docile, diligent 
 and kind." Next day he preached to from fifteen hundred 
 to two thousand people, just emerged from heathenism. 
 " Many of them were dressed very neatly, and I could 
 not help contrasting their appearance with that which 
 they presented on their first visit. At that time they 
 were constantly killing and even eating each other, 
 for they were cannibals ; but now they were all, with one 
 accord, bending their knees together in the worship of 
 
192 
 
 the God of peace and love." Mr. Bourne visited this 
 island some time after ; he says, speaking of the natives, 
 women as well as men — " They are diligent in learning, 
 and numbers can read. Family and private prayer is 
 verv general. Every thing has remained quiet since our 
 last visit : neither war nor rumour of war has been seen or 
 heard, although fomierly it was their greatest delight, 
 and the bodies of their slain enemies foraied the homble 
 repast at the conclusion of every engagement." (Willi- 
 ams's Missionary Enterprise, p. 61, 62, 111.) 
 
 "When Raratonga was first visited, the people were 
 found sunk in the gTossest licentiousness, and addicted 
 to the most ferocious and savage practices : but the Gospel 
 raised them to purity, and taught them lessons and habits 
 of affection and charity. While they were heathens, as 
 soon as a son reached manhood, he would fight and 
 wrestle with his father for the mastery, and, if he obtained 
 it, he would take forcible possession of the farm previously 
 belonging to his parent, and drive his parent in a state of 
 destitution from his home. The Gospel taught the son 
 affection for his parents. 
 
 " When a wife was bereft of her husband by death, the 
 relations of the husband, instead of paying the visit of 
 mercy and kindness to the fatherless and widow in their 
 affliction, would seize every article of value belonging to 
 the deceased, turn the disconsolate mother and her father- 
 less offspring awa}^, and take possession of the house, the 
 food, and the land. The Gospel taught then kindness to 
 the afflicted." (Missionary Enterprise, p. 137, 138.) 
 
 " Between each district was left a space of uncultivated 
 land, about half a mile in width, on which their battles 
 were most frequently fought ; but since the introduction 
 of Christianity, many of those wastes have been cultiva- 
 ted. Their wars were exceedingly frequent, and the sad 
 effects of them were every where apparent. There is not 
 an old cocoa-nut tree to be seen on the north-west or south 
 sides of the island. A few old bread-fruit trees still rear 
 their lonely heads, having survived the injuries they had 
 received from the hands of the desolating conquerors. 
 
 " Walking one day with the king among the groves of 
 
193 
 
 banana and bread-fruit trees, and observing the mutila- 
 tions, I asked him, while pointing to one of them, wliy 
 all the bark was stripped off; and turning to another, I 
 asked why so deep a gash was made in it ; and I ex- 
 pressed a wish to know what had become of the cocoa- 
 nut trees, airainst the stumps of wliich we were con- 
 tinually striking our feet. To this he replied, * You 
 know very well we were conquered, and why do you 
 banter me ? We were fools enough to fight with the 
 trees as well as with the men ; some we cut down our- 
 selves, lest the enemies should eat the fruit of them, and 
 others our conquerors destroyed. If it was possible, I 
 would put new bark on all the trees, and fill up the 
 gashes in the trunks of the others ; for wherever I go, 
 they stare me in the face, and remind me of my defeat. 
 However, young trees are growing fast, and I am plant- 
 ing cocoa-nuts in all directions ; so that my possessions 
 will soon be as valuable as those of our conquerors ; 
 and I am under no apprehension of having them destroyed 
 again, — tor the Gospel has put an end to our wars." 
 (Williams's Missionary Enterj^rise, p. 208, 209.) 
 
 " Female prisoners were very frequently put to death, 
 the poor little children had spears passed through their 
 ears, and were carried in triumph to the mara, and 
 other cruelties more homble still were practised, but all 
 of them were swept away by the Gospel of Christ. 
 
 "At Raratonga the females were treated as inferiors. 
 They were not allowed the same kinds of food as the 
 men, nor were they allowed to dwell under the same 
 roof with their tyrannical masters ; but were compelled 
 to eat their scanty meal, of inferior provisions, at a dis- 
 tance, while their husbands feasted on the * fat of the 
 land,' and the * the abundance of the sea.' The Gospel 
 changed the state of things entirely, teaching the hus- 
 bands respect and tenderness, and rendering the wives 
 abundant in their affectionate attentions. During the 
 sickness which prevailed shortly after our arrival, we were 
 delighted at beholding the tender sympathy and unremit- 
 ting attentions which the women showed towards their 
 husbands. Enter their habitations when we would, by 
 
 R 
 
194 
 
 ae noo 
 
 night or by day, the head of the afflicted husband was 
 in the lap of his affectionate wife ; while she beat off the 
 annoying flies, bathed the temples with water, or eased 
 the pain by the gentle pressure of the afflicted part with 
 her soft hands. Thus, in those places which so lately 
 were the abodes of savage and implacable furies, the 
 inhabitants now reside with their beloved teachers, sitting 
 under their bread-fruit and banana groves, no one making 
 them afraid." (Missionary Ent^rjDrise, p. 209 — 214.) 
 
 " It was a general practice among the inhabitants of 
 the South Sea Islands to murder their own children, but 
 the honible practice was quickly abolished by the Gospel. 
 ' Let us this afternoon remember our former state,' said 
 one of the native converts at a public meeting, ' how 
 many children were killed, and how few were kept alive ; 
 but now none are destroyed. Parents now behold their 
 three, five, and even their ten children ; the majority of 
 w4iich would have been murdered, had not God sent his 
 word to us. Now hundreds of these are daily taught 
 the word of God.' 
 
 " Another native rose and said — * There were two cap- 
 tivities amongst us fonnerly. The one was a captivity 
 to the gods, the other was a captivity to the king's servants. 
 Perhaps there is an individual present who understands 
 the former captivity ; for I know the very cave in which 
 he hid himself several times, when he was sought after 
 to be offered up to be sacrificed to the gods.* The other 
 captivity was to the servants of our chiefs. The master 
 of the house would sit as a poor captive, without daring 
 to speak, while they would seize his rolls of cloth, kill 
 the fattest of his pigs, pluck the best of his bread fruit, 
 and take the very posts of his house- for fire-wood with 
 which to cook them. Is there not a person present who 
 buried his new canoe in the sand, to hide it from these 
 desperate men ? But now all these customs are abolished : 
 we live in peace, without fear. But what has abolished 
 them all ? It is the Gospel of Jesus.' 
 
 " Prior to the introduction of Christianity, the old 
 people, of both sexes, were treated with the greatest 
 
 ♦ This person was sitting at the time in front of the speaker. 
 
m 
 
 cruelty ; for as soon as thay became burdensome, their 
 friends, or their own children, relieved themselves from 
 further trouble, by putting an end to their existence. 
 Under the pretence of can-ying the victim to a stream of 
 water to bathe, his relations would hurl him into a hole 
 previously dug for the purpose, and then throw a heap of 
 stones upon the body. The Gospel taught them to respect 
 their aged kindred, and now were seen numbers upwards 
 of sixty years of age, collected into classes and learning 
 the truths of religion, and enjoying its consolations. 
 Thus various and numerous are the blessings of the 
 Gospel, which it imparts with a liberal hand to people of 
 all climes, and under all circumstances; the new-born 
 infant, the hoary-headed man, the despised old woman, 
 the widows and the fatherless, the afflicted and the dying, 
 are alike the objects of its tender regards." (Missionary 
 Enterprise, p. 287, 288.) 
 
 *' We have a delightful instance of the beneficent 
 power of the Gospel in the case of the chief Vara. In 
 the times of their ignorance, he was a procurer of human 
 sacrifices, and on one occasion Pomare sent to him an 
 order to obtain one immediately. Vara was rather at a 
 loss to satisfy this imperious demand ; and as he was 
 going in search of a victim, his own little brother fol- 
 lowed him at a distance, and cried after him. So soon 
 as he saw him he turned round, struck his head with a 
 stone, killed him, and, having put him into a large 
 basket, made of cocoa-nut leaves, sent him to Pomare. 
 i >:When his mother bewailed the death of her child, and 
 •J < 'Charged him with cruelty for killing his brother, he 
 i I abused her. Another office held by Vara was to rally 
 Jfidispirited warriors, and many a night has he walked 
 i^ifrom house to house, to rouse the savage spirit of the 
 ■people. But this implacable and unmerciful heathen 
 was converted by the Gospel, and became a humble, 
 loving, and devoted Christian, and adorned his profession 
 to the day of his death. When near his end, he was 
 very happy, and gave earaest thanks to God for the sal- 
 vation of the Gospel. ' J grieve,' said he, ' that all my 
 children do not love the Saviour. Had they known the 
 
196 
 
 misery we endured in the reign of the devil, they would 
 gladly take ' the Gospel in exchange for their follies. 
 Jesus is the best King; he gives a pillow without 
 thorns.* 
 
 *'A little time after, 1 asked him," says the missionary, 
 " if he was afraid to die, when, with almost youthful 
 energy he replied, * No, no ; the canoe is in the sea, the 
 sails are spread, she is ready for the gale ; I have a good 
 pilot to guide me, and a good haven to receive me. My 
 outside man and my inside man differ. Let the one rot 
 till the trump shall sound, but let my soul wing her way 
 to the throne of Jesus.' Thus can the Gospel calm the 
 savage soul, and make the fierce and bloody, gentle and 
 tender in their lives, and impart to their regenerated 
 souls peace and exultation amidst the pains of death." 
 (Missionary Enterprise, p. 365, 366.) . 
 
 Many such pleasing instances of the saving and 
 comforting power of the Gospel might be given, but 
 our space does not permit us. — See other affecting in- 
 stances on pages 368 — 370, and 374 — 376, Williams's 
 Missionary Enterprise. 
 
 Makea, a converted chief of Raratonga, when on a visit 
 to the Navigators' islands, gave the people an account of 
 the introduction of the Gospel into his country, and of the 
 effects it had produced. " Now," said he, " we enjoy happi- 
 ness, to which our ancestors were strangers ; our ferocious 
 wars have ceased; our houses are the abodes of comfort; we 
 have European property; we have books in our own 
 language ; our children can read ; and above all, we know 
 the true God, and the way of salvation by Jesus Christ." 
 He concluded his address, by earnestly exhorting Malie- 
 toa and his brother chiefs to grasp with a firm hold the 
 word of Jehovah ; " for this alone," he added, " can make 
 you a peaceable and happy people. I should have died a 
 savage had it not been for the Gospel." Makea's address 
 produced a most powerful impression. Malietoa embraced 
 the Gospel, became a meek and loving follower of Jesus, 
 and a happy and useful prince. Malietoa had a beloved 
 daughter, who was barbarously murdered by another chief. 
 His sons urged him to go to war against the murderer. 
 
197 
 
 but he answered, "' Having embraced the Gospel, which 
 is a reUgion o( peace, I am determined, if possible, toliv* 
 under its influence." (428 — 439.) 
 
 It was a common thing in many of the South Sea 
 Islands, to offer up human sacrifices. At the feast of 
 Restoration no less than seven human victims were required. 
 Human victims were invariably offei*ed on the eve ol 
 war. Perhaps a coiTect idea of this dreadful system may 
 be given by a short account of the last Tahitian victim 
 that was sacrificed. Pomare was about to tight an im- 
 portant battle, and wishing to insure success, he sent twc 
 messengers in search of a victim. They went to the house 
 of the man whom they had purposed to sacrifice, and 
 asked the wife where her husband was. vShe told them, 
 he was in such a place, planting bananas. " Well/' they 
 continued, " we are thirsty, give us some cocoa-nut vrater." 
 She told them she had no nuts in the house, but tr.at 
 they were at liberty to climb the trees, and take as maiiv 
 as they desired. They then requested her to lend then: 
 the 0, which is a long thick piece of iron wood, wnii 
 which the natives open the cocoa-nut. She cheerfully 
 complied with their wishes, imagining no hann. • CJn 
 receiving the 0, the men left the house, and went in 
 seai'ch of their victim ; and the woman, having become 
 rather suspicious, followed them shortly after, a.nd 
 reached the place where her husband was working, ji^t 
 in time to see the blow inflicted and her husband lali. 
 She rushed forward towards her husband, but she v/as 
 immediately seized and bound hand and foot, while the 
 body of her murdered husband was placed in a long basket 
 of cocoa-nut leaves, and home from her sight. While 
 the men were canying their victim to the mavfe, he 
 recovered from the stunning effects of the blow, and, 
 bound as he was in the cocoa-nut leaf basket, he said to 
 liis murderers, " Friends, I know what you intend to do 
 with me ; you are about to kill me, and to offer me as a 
 iapu to your savage gods; and I also know that it Iv 
 useless to beg for mercy, for you will not spare my life. 
 You may kill my body, but you cannot hurt my soul ; 
 for I have begun to pray to Jesus, the knowledge of whom 
 
 p. 
 
 o 
 
198 
 
 the missionaries have brought to our island." Instead of 
 being moved to compassion by his affecting address, they 
 laid him down upon the gi'ound, placed a stone under his 
 head, and, with another stone, beat it in pieces. In this 
 state they carried him to their savage gods. " One of the 
 assassins, whose business it was to procure human sacri- 
 fices, sailed with me in my last voyage," says J. Williams, 
 " and not only confinned the foregoing statement, but 
 detailed many other transactions equally tragical, in which 
 he had been engaged. But painful as the incident is, it 
 is a relief to know, that this was the very last sacrifice 
 oflfered to the gods of Tahiti ; for very soon after, Chris- 
 tianity was generally embraced, and the altars of the 
 savage gods were thrown down." 
 
 **■ Another circumstance," says Williams, " which ren- 
 dered this practice still more dreadful, was, that as soon 
 as one of the family had been selected for sacrifice, all 
 the other male members of it were looked upon as devoted 
 to the same homd purpose. It would avail them nothing 
 if they removed to another island, for the reason of their 
 removal would soon be known there ; and whenever a 
 sacrifice was required, it would be sought amongst them. 
 I had in my own service an individual who was the last 
 of his family, of which every other male member had 
 been offered in sacrifice, and he had been eight times 
 hunted in the mountains with dogs, but being a cunning 
 fellow, and an extraordinary runner, he had eluded his 
 pursuers, until the inhabitants of his island embraced 
 the Gospel, and human sacrifices were abolished. These 
 very people," adds Williams, " who a few years ago were 
 addicted to all these horrid practices, now sit in thousands 
 in places of Christian worship, erected by themselves, 
 clothed, and in their right mind, and listening with intense 
 interest to the truths of the Gospel. A spectacle more 
 truly sublime it is scarcely possible for the human mind 
 to contemplate." 
 
 The murder of infants was another practice which 
 prevailed among the Tahitian and Society Islands, to 
 an extent almost exceeding credibility. " I never con- 
 versed with a female of those islands, that had borne 
 
199 
 
 children, ])rior to the introduction of Christianity," says 
 Williams, " who had not destroyed some of them, and 
 frequently as many as from five to ten. During the 
 visit of the deputation, our respected friend G. Bennett 
 was our guest for three or four months ; and on one 
 occasion, while conversing on this subject, he expressed 
 a wish to obtain accurate knowledge of the extent to 
 which this cruel system had prevailed. Three women 
 were sitting in the room at the time, making European 
 gannents, under Mrs. Williams's direction ; and after 
 replying to Mr. Bennett's inquiries, I said, ' 1 have no 
 doubt but that each of these women has destroyed some 
 of her children.' Looking at them with an expression 
 of surprise and incredulity, Mr. Bennett exclaimed, 
 * Impossible ! Such motherly respectable-looking women 
 could never have been guilty of so gi'eat an atrocity.' 
 'Well,' I added, ' we'll ask them.' Addressing the first, I 
 said to her, ' Friend, how many children have you 
 destroyed ?' She was startled at my question, and at 
 first charged me with unkindness, in harrowing up her 
 feelings by bringing the destruction of her babes to her 
 remembrance; jjut upon hearing the object of my 
 inquiry, she replied, with a faltering voice, ' I have 
 destroyed nine.' The second, with eyes suliused with tears, 
 said, ' I have destroyed seven ;' and the third infonned 
 us that she had destroyed five. Thus, three individuals, 
 casually selected, had killed one and twenty children ! 
 But I am happy to add, that these mothers were, at the 
 time of this conversation, and continued to be, so long 
 as I knew them, consistent members of my church. 
 
 " On another occasion I was called to visit the wife of 
 a chief in dying circumstances. She had professed 
 Christianity for many years, had learned to read when 
 nearly sixty, and was a very active teacher in an adult 
 school. In the prospect of death, she sent a pressing 
 request that I would visit her immediately, and on enter- 
 ing her apartment, she exclaimed, ' O, servant of God ! 
 come and tell me what I must do!' Perceiving that she 
 was sutFering great mental distress, I inquired the cause 
 of it; when she replied, ' I am about to die, I am 
 
200 
 
 about to die.' ' Well,' I rejoined, * if it be so, what 
 creates this agony of mind ?' ' Oh, my sins, my sins,' 
 she cried ; ' I am about to die.' I then inquired what 
 particular sins they were which so greatly disturbed her, 
 when she exclaimed, ' Oh, my children, my murdered 
 children ! I am about to die, and I shall meet them all at 
 the judgment seat of Christ.' Upon this I inquired how 
 many children she had destroyed ; and, to my astonish- 
 ment, she replied, ' I have destroyed sixteen ! and now 
 I am about to die.' As soon as my feelings would allow 
 me, I began to reason with her, and urged the considera- 
 tion that she had done this when a heathen, and during 
 * the times of ignorance, which God winked at ;' but 
 this did not afford her the desired consolation ; and again 
 she gave vent to her agonized feelings by exclaiming, 
 ' Oh, my children, my children !' I then directed her 
 to the faithful saying which is worthy of all accepta- 
 tion, that Jesus Christ came into the world to save 
 sinners. This imparted some comfort; and after visiting 
 her frequently, and urging upon her mind the consola- 
 tions of the Gospel, her troubled spirit was tranquillized, 
 and she died about eight days after my first visit, in the 
 hope of salvation." 
 
 " Frequently have our feelings been most powerfully 
 excited, at the examination of our school-children; and 
 scenes more affecting than some which have been witnessed 
 on such occasions it is scarcely possible to conceive. One 
 of these, v>hich occurred at my own station at Raiatea, I 
 will briefly describe. Upwards of six hundred children 
 were present. A feast was prepared, and they walked 
 through the settlement in procession, most of them dressed 
 in European garments, with little hats and banners made 
 by those very parents who, had not Christianity come to 
 their rescue, would have destroyed the little creatures. 
 The children added much to the interest of the day, by 
 preparing Sags with such mottos as the following : ' What 
 a blessing the Gospel is!' 'The Christians of England 
 sent us the Gospel.' ' Had it not been for the Gospel, 
 we should liave been destroyed as soon as we w^ere born.' 
 On some, texts of Scripture were inscribed — 'Behold, 
 
201 
 
 the Lamb of God, wliich taketh away the sins of the world.' 
 
 * Suffer little children to come unto me ;' and other 
 similar passages. After proceeding through the settlement, 
 they were conducted to the spacious chapel, and sung the 
 Jubilee hymn. The venerable old king then took the 
 chair. He had been worshi]i])ed as a god, and had led 
 fierce warriors to the battle and the fight, but he evidently 
 felt that he had never occupied a station so dclightfid or 
 so honourable as that of presiding at this examination of 
 the children of his people. The children were placed in 
 the centre, and the parents occupied the other seats. Each 
 class was then called up and examined, and after this, 
 individuals from the different classes were selected, and 
 questioned by the missionary. While this was proceed- 
 ing, the appearance of the parents was most affecting. 
 The eyes of some were gleaming with delight, as the 
 father said to the mother, or the mother to the father, 
 
 * What a mercy it is that we spared our dear girl !' Others, 
 with saddened countenances and faultering voices, la- 
 mented in bitterness that they had not saved theirs ; and 
 the silent tear, as it stole down the cheeks of many, told 
 the painful tale that a// their children had been destroyed. 
 In the midst of our proceedings, a venerable chieftain, 
 gi'ey with age, arose, and with impassioned look and 
 manner, exclaimed, ' Let me speak ; I must speak !' On 
 obtaining permission, he proceeded thus : — ' Oh that I had 
 known that the Gospel was coming ! Oh that I had known 
 that these blessings were in store for us ; then I should have 
 saved my children, and they would have been among this 
 happy group, repeating these precious truths ; but, alas ! 
 I destroyed them all, I have not one left.' This chief was an 
 arioi of the highest rank, and the laws of his class required 
 the destruction of all his children. Turning to the chair- 
 man, who was also a relative of the chief, he stretched out 
 his arm and exclaimed, * Yon, my brother, saw me kill 
 child after child, but you never seized this murderous 
 hand, and said, Stay brother, God is about to bless us; 
 the Gospel of salvation is coming to our shores! Then he 
 cursed the gods which he had foniierly worshipped, and 
 added, * It was you that infused this savage disposition 
 
202 
 
 into us, and now I shall die childless, although I have 
 been the father of nineteen children.' After this he sat 
 down, and in a flood of teai's gave vent to his agonized 
 feelings." 
 
 " This scene occurred in my own place of worship," 
 says J . AVilliams." I saw the man, and heard him utter 
 these expressions. Many other instances equally affect- 
 ing might be added, but I shall content myself with 
 mentioning but one more. This related to a chief woman, 
 who had been united in maniage to a man of inferior 
 rank ; and it was the universal custom to destroy the 
 children of such a union. The first babe was born and 
 put to death. The father wished the second to be spared, 
 but the mother and the mother's relatives demanded its 
 destruction. The third was a fine girl. The father pleaded 
 and entreated that it might be saved, for his bowels yearned 
 over it, but the mother and the mother's relatives again 
 carried their j^oint, and the babe was doomed to die. One 
 of the numerous modes of killing children was, to put 
 the babe into a hole covered with a plank, to keep the 
 earth from pressing it, and to leave it there to perish. 
 This method was adopted in the present case. The father 
 happened to be in the mountains at the time of the child's 
 intennent ; but on his return he hastened to the spot, 
 opened the gi-ave, and finding that the babe was not dead, 
 he took her up, and gave her in charge to his brother and 
 sister, by whom she was conveyed to the island of Aimeo, 
 about seventy miles distant, and there they brought her 
 up. The husband died, without having infonned his 
 wife that their daughter was still alive. After Christianity 
 was introduced, the mother was on one occasion be- 
 wailing most bitterly the destruction of her children ; 
 when a woman who was present, and who knew what the 
 father had done, told her that her daughter had been 
 saved, and that she was yet living at Aimeo. A short 
 time after receiving this intelligence she sailed to Aimeo, 
 and on reaching the shore, she hurried with excited feelings 
 to the house of her relatives, and as she approached it, 
 beheld with wonder and delight a fine young girl standing 
 in the door-way. She at once recognized her own 
 
203 
 
 image in the countenance of the girl. It was hef 
 daughter. She clasped her to her bosom, but no one 
 can describe her transport of joy. The mother is gone 
 to her rest, but her daughter is, at the present time, an 
 active teacher in our schools, and a consistent member of 
 a Christian Church." (Williams's Missionary Enter- 
 prise in the South Seas, p. 557, &c.) 
 
 Many other interesting facts, of a similar kind, are 
 given in this work, all tending to illustrate the happy 
 influence of the religion of Christ. Great numbers of 
 similar facts might be quoted from the histories of the 
 Moravian, and from the histories of Methodist missions, 
 in various parts of the world. The histories of Chris- 
 tian Missions abound with such pleasing facts, demon- 
 strating the truth of the great principle which I under- 
 took to prove, That the religion of Christ, wherever it is 
 received and practised, produces good, and good of 
 every kind. 
 
 I may also observe, that the influence of Christianity 
 at its first promulgation was the same as it is at the 
 present day. It would be easy to fill five or six hun- 
 dred pages with accounts of its benevolent and happy 
 effects both on individuals and nations ; and in a separate 
 work I shall furnish some of these accounts; but the 
 limits of this Appendix will not allow me to do it here. 
 I might begin with the Saviour himself, go down to the 
 first churches who used their property as common, sup- 
 plying the needs of every member. I might tell of 
 Dorcas, whose employment was making garments for the 
 poor, and other works of charity ; and of multitudes of 
 others, who by their charity astonished the world, and 
 made their enemies to exclaim, '' See how these Chris- 
 tians love one another !" I might tell of Pamphilius, 
 who, amongst other instances of his charity, expended 
 immense sums in circulating copies of the sacred 
 volume, — of Chrysostom, who out of his own purse sup- 
 ported many teachers of the Gospel to instruct and con- 
 vert the Gentiles, — of men who exposed themselves to 
 hazards and hardships innumerable to enlighten and bless 
 the dark nations of the earth, — and of some who sub- 
 
^4 
 
 initted to be slaves, to obtain the opportunity of instructing 
 slaves. I might show how the churches provided for 
 their poor, and for the poor of their persecutors, — how 
 they took up outcast children which the Gentiles had 
 exposed to death, and trained them as their own off- 
 spring, — how the church at Antioch helped strangers, 
 provided for lepers, redeemed slaves, and daily main- 
 tained three thousand helpless widows and maids. I 
 might mention Cyprian, who sold his estates to relieve 
 the wants of others, — how he left his house open for all 
 that were needy, — how he was eyes to the blind, and 
 feet to the lame, and the helper of all that were in distress. 
 I might make mention of Caesarius, who made only this 
 short will, " I will that my estates be given to the poor," — 
 of the father of Nazianzen, who not only bestowed the 
 sui*plus of his estate upon the poor, but even part of 
 what he reserved for necessary uses, — of his mother, 
 whose benevolence would have exhausted an ocean of 
 wealth, — of his sister Gorgonia, who was as the mother 
 of orphans, and whose estate was as common to the poor 
 as to herself, — of Epiphanius, bishop of Salamone, who 
 spent all his estate in reheving the needy, and such as 
 were shipwrecked and cast upon the coast, and then 
 fi'eely dispensed in works of mercy the treasures of the 
 church. I might tell of Fabiola, a Roman lady of high 
 rank and great wealth, who sold her estate and dedicated 
 the money to the use of the poor, — who built an hospital, 
 (the first that ever was built) in which she maintained 
 and cured the infirm and miserable, or any sick that she 
 met with in the streets, — who attended helpless and 
 afflicted creatures, which she had collected together by 
 hundreds, in her own person, carrying them sometimes 
 in her arms, sometimes washing and dressing their sores, 
 and at other times preparing food and giving them physic 
 with her own hand. I might mention Placilla the em- 
 press, who made the lame and the wounded her care, 
 would go home to iheii' houses, carry them all necessary 
 conveniences, attend and assist them, not by the ministry 
 of her servants and followers only, but with her own 
 hands, — who visited the common hospitals, attended at 
 
205 
 
 sick beds for their cure, tasted their broths, prepared their 
 bread, reached them their provisions, washed their cups 
 with her own hands, and performed all other offices which 
 fell to the meanest of the servants. I might tell of Deo- 
 gratias, the aged bishop of Carthage, who ])rovidtd for 
 the needy, took care of the sick, — of the Christians of Alex- 
 andria, and of others who nobly sacrificed and ventured 
 all for the welfare of their needy and afflicted brethren. 
 I might tell of Cyprian's efforts for the redemption of 
 captives, giving thousands of crowns at a time for that 
 good work, — of Acasius and his church, who ransomed 
 seven thousand Persians at one time at an immense ex- 
 pense, fed them and sent them to their homes, — of 
 Paulinus, bishop of Nola, who himself became a slave 
 to ransom a widow's son. I might tell of their plainness 
 of drerS; their rejection of ornaments and gay attire, 
 their temperance in meats and drinks, their patience 
 under insujis and pei-secution, their constancy and per- 
 severance, and give remarkable and many instances of 
 these virtues, all tending to sui)ply the resources, and 
 give efficiency to their plans of charity. Whole books 
 might be written on this subject, as well as on the endless 
 institul'ons of charity- to which Christians of modern 
 times have given being, and the prodigies of benevolence 
 to be found in the lives of such men as Howard, Boyle, 
 Gouge, Penn, Fox, Wesley, Whitfield, Hanway, Eddy, 
 Franck, and many more, as well as of many religious 
 bodies, all furnishing floods of evidence of the beneficent 
 tendency of the Gospel, and proving that wherever it is 
 reduced to practice it makes all things new. And of all 
 these things I could give dates and names, and the attes- 
 tation of authentic and creditable history. But I must 
 stop and reserve the particulars for another pam])hlet. 
 This pamphlet or little volume will probably be published 
 in February or March, not long alter the publication of 
 the Discussion. The title of the work will be, " The 
 Gospel Triumphant," &c. In this work I shall give the 
 arguments in favour of the happy influence of Chris- 
 tianity at greater length than I have been able to do in 
 this discussion, as well as unfold the atheistical and 
 licentious character of the Social system of Robert 
 Owen. The work will be published by Groombridge, 
 and may be had of any bookseller. 
 
 I shall now conclude this Appendix by briefly giving 
 
206 
 
 he substance of what I have proved in the preceding 
 pages, and by a few words of advice to my readers : — 
 
 1. I have proved that the passages quoted by Lloyd 
 Jones do not sanction persecution, but that they simply 
 require the churches to keep themselves apart from cor- 
 rupt and infidel characters ; and I may now add, that the 
 judgment which fell on Elymas was not inflicted by Paul, 
 but by God himself, and that the infliction was merely 
 announced by Paul. — (See the passage. Acts xiii.) 
 
 2. I have proved that the Gospel is a system of liberty 
 throughout; that it does not forbid free inquiry, but com- 
 mands it ; that it requires no blind faith, but such faith 
 only as has truth and proper evidence to rest upon. 
 
 3. I have proved that Lloyd Jones's accounts of the 
 proceedings of the early Christians, and of professing 
 Christians generally, are awfully incorrect, abounding 
 with the most shameful misrepresentations. 
 
 4. I have shown, that the persecutions of persons call- 
 ing themselves Christians, did not originate in the influence 
 of Christianity, but in the ivant of it ; that the principal 
 persecutors did not even profess to follow the New Testa- 
 ment alone. I have also proved, — 
 
 5. That Christ never once taught persecution, or any 
 thing of a persecuting tendency; but that he forbad perse- 
 cution, and taught meekness, merc}^ charity, and truth, 
 in scores of passages. 
 
 6. That Christ never practised persecution. He was 
 led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her 
 shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. He prayed 
 for his murderers. 
 
 7. The Apostles and first Christians did not teach or 
 practise persecution, but on the contrary, endured the per- 
 secution of their enemies with unconquerable meekness. — 
 (Sec Death of Stephen, Lives of the Apostles, and the 
 whole New Testament.) 
 
 8. Those sects, now-a-days, that pay most regard to the 
 precepts of the New Testament, are farthest from perse- 
 cution, as the Quakers, Dissenting Churches, &c. 
 
 9. Those sects which read and regard the New Testament 
 least, or profess to follow other guides, are most forward to 
 persecute, as the Roman Catholics, &c. 
 
 10. Those ages when the New Testament was least 
 understood were the bloodiest ages ; while in those times 
 in which it has been most read, persecution has in propor- 
 tion gone out of use. 
 
207 
 
 IL- Those nations where the New Testament is least 
 known at this day, are the most fierce and intolerant ; 
 while in those nations in which the New Testament is gene- 
 rally read, — ''the day," as Lloyd Jones observed, "when 
 men could not stand forth to declare their principles 
 without fear of pains and penalties," has passed away. 
 
 12. Persecution is practised in every nation where the 
 Gospel is at present unknown. 
 
 13. Persecution was the law and practice of all the 
 Gentile nations before the coming of Christ. 
 
 14. The first law in favour of toleration ever heard 
 of, was passed by Constantine, the first emperor that 
 ever professed Christianity. 
 
 15. The bloodiest persecutions were those of the Pagans 
 and the Popedom against Christians; and those of the 
 infidel philosophers and politicians of France, of Robert 
 Owen's persuasion, against all who refused to turn atheists. 
 
 16. Diderot, the modern father of Socialism, was a 
 persecutor, so was D'Alembert, his colleague, and the 
 Socialist infidels generally. 
 
 17. All men are persecutors by nature, and nothing 
 but Christianity can take the persecuting spirit out of 
 man. 
 
 18. No man can be found who was free from intoler- 
 ance before he became a Christian, and was made a per- 
 secutor by becoming a Christian. 
 
 19. The Socialists are persecutors, as I proved from 
 their own works, providing hospitals or dungeons for one 
 another, and preparing to force the rest of mankind to 
 renounce religion and tuni Socialists, at the point of the 
 sword and the mouth of the musket. 
 
 20. Professing Christians that persecuted, were perse- 
 cutors before they became professors. They did not find 
 persecution in Christianity, they brought it into the church 
 with them. 
 
 21. The first and best writers against persecution were 
 Christians, such as IMilton.. Taylor, Locke, &:c. 
 
 22. The men that broke the power of persecution in 
 England and America were professing Christians, Dis- 
 senters, Quakers, Methodists, &:c. 
 
 23. All sects become more and more tolerant, in pro- 
 portion as they advance in the knowledge and obedience 
 of the Gospel. 
 
 24. The most tolerant of all sects are the greatest 
 lovers of the Gospel. 
 
g08 
 
 These and some other arguments I used, not one of 
 which my opponent so much as attempted to answer. He 
 shnply went on reading bloody stories, never desisting 
 except to wrest my words, throw out some sneer, or utter 
 some startling and horrible blasphemy. This was the 
 work of the first night. 
 
 The second night the question was, " Whether Chris- 
 tianity does not produce good, wherever it operates, and 
 good of every kind ?" This point I proved by the fol- 
 lowing arguments : — 
 
 1, From the nature of its doctrines, precepts, and 
 examples, it is manifest that it cannot produce any thing 
 else but good. It forbids all crimes, the fountains of 
 all misery ; and enjoins all virtues, the fountains of peace 
 and joy. 
 
 2. The whole history of Christianity proves it to have 
 been productive of good wherever it was reduced to prac- 
 tice. — As to particulars, I showed that wherever Chris- 
 tianity prevailed — 
 
 1. It shook to pieces the prevailing systems of idolatry, 
 with all their cruel, intemperate, and unclean rites, and 
 established the pure and spiritual worship of the one true 
 God. 
 
 2. It struck at the root of all superstition, destroyed 
 magic, witchcraft, astrology, necromancy, &c., and 
 brought men to rest in peace under the providence of 
 one gi'eat and wise and merciful Deity. 
 
 3. It overturned all systems of priestcraft, and made 
 men free in soul. 
 
 4. It made men peaceful, forbad and extenninated war. 
 
 5. Broke down the partition walls of opposing nations, 
 castes, and tribes, and united men of all nations, ranks, and 
 castes, in one family of truth and charity. 
 
 6. Cured the evils of domestic life; raised woman from 
 slavery to be man's friend and equal ; ended the cruel 
 rigors of paternal authority ; and made for its disciples 
 happy homes. 
 
 7. It made men valiant in the cause of truth and 
 mercy, abolished fraud, lying, oppression, and robbery. 
 
 8. It made men benevolent, and formed its converts 
 into friends and benefactors of all mankind. 
 
 9. It extended the bounds of human liberty, softening 
 the rigors of slavery, and gradually causing systems of 
 slavery to pass entirely away. 
 
 These points I proved from the New Testament, from 
 
209 
 
 ibe works of the Fathers, from the Ecclesiastical histo- 
 rians, from the testimonies of Pagan writers, and from 
 the testimonies of our enemies ; from the history of Eng- 
 land, from the history of Missions, and from the character 
 of religious communities now existing. 
 
 T then came to prove that it produced good of eveiy 
 kind. Here I read over an account of the requisites for 
 human happiness as laid down in one of the Socialists' 
 standard hooks, and showed that the tendency of Chris- 
 tianity was to give all these requisites to men 
 
 As far as my limited time would allow, I showed — 
 
 1 . That the tendency of Christianity was, hy promoting 
 temperance, chastity, and the due exercise of the bodily 
 and mental powers, to impro\e the health and vigor of 
 the whole physical and intellectual system, both of the 
 present and future generations. 
 
 2. That it extended man's power over the elements, 
 increased his ability to procure Ibod, and to obtain all the 
 necessaries and enjoyments of lite. 
 
 3. That it made the right education of children the 
 duty of all parents, and enjoined Christians to seek the 
 instruction and improvement of the whole species. 
 
 4. That it awakened in every heart that yielded to its 
 influence, a desire to do good to all mankind, and that it 
 furnished even its humblest converts with some means of 
 contributing to the welfare of their fellow men. 
 
 5. That it tended to beget in the minds of men a de- 
 sire after knowledge, and led them to such pursuits as 
 were likely to add to their intellectual stock. That edu- 
 cation anil science trod in the steps ot piety, and that 
 Bacon, and Boyle, and Newton, and Locke, and Clarke, 
 and Berkley, and Baxter, and Milton, were but exam- 
 ples of what it was able to do for all mankind. 
 
 6. That it improved all our social pleasures, purifying 
 our souls and uniting us together by heavenly and holy 
 sympathies; forming a spiritual kingdom upon earth, and 
 fitting us by godly intercourse for the society of heaven. 
 
 7. That it favoured the progi'ess of all u.-eiul arts, ex- 
 tending man's dominion over all material things, and 
 placing in man's reach all the riches of the universe. 
 
 8. That it delivered its disciples from superstilion, 
 from supernatural fears, such as the fear of sorcereis 
 and demons, teaching us to rest in the hands of Him 
 who numbers the hairs of our heads ; — that it takes away 
 
 s 2 
 
210 
 
 the fear of death, so that the Christian neither dfestds tile 
 horrible phantoms of the Pagans, nor the revoking and 
 appalling annihilation of thought, of feeling, of hope and 
 consciousness of the infidel ; — that it gives, moreover, 
 a glorioue hope of immortality. 
 
 9. That it promotes liberty, — liberty of soul, liberty of 
 body, thus emancipating and unfettering the universe. 
 
 I was proceeding with this point, when I was told the 
 time was nearly gone. I was, in fact, unable, in conse- 
 quence of want of time, to bring forward more than one- 
 third of what I was wishful to say. 
 
 Lloyd Jones went on reading his tales of l)lood and 
 murder. He never fairly met one single argument, or 
 offered one singie valid objection. I may observe, in 
 conclusion, that Lloyd Jones, in his last speech, gave up 
 the whole point in dispute, and acknowledged that all the 
 evils of persecution of which he had been reading, were 
 produced through the mistakes of men. 
 
 The objections that Lloyd Jones made the second night 
 were — 
 
 L That priestcraft, superstition, &c. were not yet all 
 abolished ; which nobody of course denied. All I had to 
 prove was, that Christianity destroyed these evils wherever 
 it was properly received and reduced to practice, and this 
 I did prove. Lloyd Jones's objection only proved, what 
 all of us knew, that all had not heartily embraced Chris- 
 tianity, and that therefore Christianity had not yet 
 finished its work. 
 
 2. Another objection was, that philosophy had done 
 the good I spoke about. This of course was not denied : 
 the philosophy of Christ, the only philosophy that was 
 ever worth the name, had, under the blessing of its 
 Author, done it all. What Pagan or Infidel philosophy 
 can do, I have shewn in this Appendix. 
 
 My Christian friends, you will see from this debate, 
 that tile inconsistencies of professors are the whole strength 
 of infidelity. " Infidelity," says one, " is a monster 
 bred amidst the stagnant waters of a corrupted Chris- 
 tianity ;" and we may add, that the food on which this 
 monster lives, and from which it derives its strength, is, 
 the remaining imperfections and corruptions of professors 
 of Christianity of the present day. It should therefore 
 be the endeavour of every friend to rehgion, to free him- 
 self from every thing, both in his doctrine and in his 
 
211 
 
 character, that is at variance with the religion of Christ. 
 This is the only way by which we can thoroughly over- 
 throw the schemes of infidels. Let us, then, as the 
 Apostle exhorts, '* by well doing put to silence the igno- 
 rance of foolish men." This will deprive the monster of 
 its food, and bring its existence to a speedy close. This 
 will shame infidelity out of the world, and biing back 
 many of those who liave been unhappily led astray by the 
 craftiness of its advocates, to the ways of peace and hap- 
 piness. I know we cannot prevent insincere persons 
 fi-om taking upon themselves the Christian name, but 
 let us use our best endeavours to be free from blame our- 
 selves, and to keep as free as possible from faitliless per- 
 sons, and the power of the Gospel will wax greater and 
 greater, and every form of licentiousness and unbelief 
 will be driven from the abodes of men. The wonders 
 which Christianity has already accomplished, leave us 
 no room to doubt of its final triumph. The Gospel has 
 been sent forth to regenerate the whole family of man, 
 and it will not return to Him that sent it till it has accom- 
 plished its glorious object. All lands shall hear its glad 
 tidings; all hearts shall feel its saving power; and all the 
 tribes of earth shall exult together in the fulness and the 
 glory of its blessings. Earth and heaven shall sing 
 together, with their millions of united voices — ''Glory 
 to God in the Highest, on earth peace, good-will towards 
 men." 
 
 Lloyd Jones is to add a second Appendix to this 
 Discussion, which I am not to be permitted to see 
 or to answer till after the Discussion is published. This 
 does not look very much like a love of truth, or a love of 
 full and free discussion. What sort of statements they 
 are which Lloyd Jones is so afraid of being answered, 
 I do not know, but I shall have the opportunity of 
 seeing them when they are published, and I shall also 
 answer them in " The Gospel Triumphant." 
 
212 
 
 b^[By Mr, Lloyd Jones. — Reply to Mr. Barker.] 
 
 Glasgow, October 28, 1S39. 
 
 Some explanation may be required as to the reason 
 why our Appendixes should have taken the form of replies, 
 instead of being, as they should be, remarks on the Dis- 
 cussion and the incidental occurrences arising out of it. 
 
 It will no doubt be recollected that this Discussion was 
 preceded bj' a long and unpleasant correspondence, and 
 that subsequent to its occurrence there was a good deal of 
 angry altercation, as to the correcting of the speeches of 
 Mr. Barker, which has ultimately led to a long and un- 
 profitable delay in publishing the Report. During the 
 transaction of these matters, Mr. Barker (who publishes 
 weekly a periodical called the " Evangelical Reformer,") 
 took the advantage afforded him by such publication, to 
 represent my character in a most discreditable light, to 
 which representations I of course had no opportunity of 
 offering anything in reply. Up, therefore, to the writing 
 of the Appendixes, Mr. B. had every thing his own way. 
 
 Mr. B. furnished his Appendix to the printer first, and 
 the printer informed me that he had entirely confined 
 himself to the discussion. •^- The reason why he made 
 no reference in his Appendix to the disagreeable incidents 
 growing out of the Discussion, I cannot say, unless it 
 be, that he had said every thing he could say, in his 
 Evangelical Reformer, so that his readers were in pos- 
 session of his version of the affair ; and he must have 
 also known that our friends, who occasionally read his 
 Evangelical Reformer, could not place any, even the 
 least, reliance upon any thing that he might say, in con- 
 sequence of the manner in which he had belied them and 
 their principles. He had nothing to do, therefore, but 
 to endeavour, by resuming the argument, to make up for 
 the deficiencies he exhibited during the Discussion. 
 
 I, however, was placed in a different position. I had 
 no opportunity of re])lying to the calumnies pubUshed in 
 his Evangelical Reformer, and I therefore felt it my duty 
 to endeavour to set myself right with the public in my 
 Appendix. This I did ; but when I presented it to the 
 printer, he suggested the propriety of submitting it to 
 
 * His original Appendix commenced with his remarks on ray 
 speeches, and was written prior to my first Ajipendix. The pre- 
 ceding part of his Appendix is, as will be perceived, a reply to 
 my Appendix, and is, in reality, a second Appendix, and wa« 
 written subsequent to the last part. 
 
 J 
 
213 
 
 Mr. B., as it contained certain statements which placed 
 
 his character in a very questionable light. This, after 
 some hesitation, I consented to do ; whereupon Mr. B. 
 claimed the right of reply ; this was granted, upon th« 
 condition that I should write a rejoinder, which I now 
 submit.* I am charged in Mr. Barker's reply — 
 
 1. With a desire to turn attention from the point in 
 dispute, by turning the matter into a personal quarrel. 
 I repudiate such inteution altogether ; I have only endea- 
 voured to clear myself from the personal charges made 
 against me by Mr. B. in his Evangelical Refonner; and 
 having no other mode of doing it by which his readers 
 would see it, I felt justified in adopting the manner com- 
 plained of. This, then, was the reason, and not the one 
 alleged by Mr. B. And I would further add, that such 
 a charge comes with a bad grace from ]\Ir. Barker, after 
 he had rendered such course necessary by his foul attacks 
 in his Evangeiical Reformer. 
 
 2. Mr. Barker states that my charges are false, but he 
 has not time to reply to them fully, which excuse may 
 no doubt satisfy some of Mr. B.'s readers, but it certainly 
 cannot satisfy those who look for something more than 
 the priestly robe as a guarantee for truth-telling. 
 
 3. He says it is true he re- wrote his sjjceches, because 
 he found it difficult to make his corrections on the small 
 slips of paper upon which the Reporter had furnished the 
 report. No doubt he found it difficult to do so, when 
 he found it necessary to add as much more, within a few 
 words, as the Reporter furnished. The small slips of 
 paper did not inconvenience me. 
 
 4. He gives the Reporter's opinion as to the nature of 
 his alterations. First, I would say that I could not 
 allow the opinion of the Reporter to reason me out of my 
 conviction of the unfiiirness of the alterations which I have 
 exposed ; secondly, I cannot tell what parts of his 
 speeches he took to the Reporter for the purpose of re- 
 ceiving an opinion thereon. I am, however, persuaded 
 that he could not have taken those parts to which I ob- 
 jected, as. such an opinion given by the Reporter upon 
 such parts would have involved his own competency as a 
 Reporter. 
 
 * It may be proper to add, that Mr. Barkerwill not have the oppor- 
 tunity of seeing this rejoinder until the pamphlet is completed, so 
 that he cannot reply thereto ; but it has, according to arrangement, 
 been submitted to the chairman of his committee, Mr. Halliwell. 
 
214 
 
 5. " But/' Mr. Barker asks, " have I added as many 
 words as Lloyd Jones says I have ?" Yes, sir, you have. 
 " Let any one count the words in the Reporter's copy, and 
 read the speeches as printed in this publication, and they will 
 see for themselves 1 have done no such thing." Granted, 
 sir, let them do so, and if they do not find it as I have 
 stated it, I shall most willingly consent to be considered 
 all that you have taken so much trouble to prove me. 
 Cave and Sever have the manuscript, and I have a copy 
 of it, with which I shall most willingly accommodate any- 
 one who would like to try the question that way. The 
 gentleman, however, seems to be conscious that if he has 
 added as much as I state, he has done wrong, or I can- 
 not see why he should deny it. I would therefore recom- 
 mend the gentleman to consult them himself, that he may 
 become conscious of the enonnity of his sin, and endea- 
 vour, as soon as possible, to make the necessary atone- 
 ment. 
 
 6. What Mr. Barker has said about his fast speaking 
 will not answer his purpose at present, although I am 
 perfectly aware that he both writes and speaks much faster 
 than discretion can always sanction. But he should re- 
 member that I read a great deal from history, and that I 
 always did so in a hunied manner, knowing that it would 
 be furnished from my books ; and also, that he himself 
 stated in my presence that he spoke slowly in order that 
 the Reporter might take down his language correctly. 
 
 7. How does Mr. Barker attempt to justify his charge 
 against me of getting the Reporter to correct my speeches ? 
 By stating that the Reporter, in extending his notes, 
 transcribed my quotations from my books. I ask Mr. 
 B., is that making alterations, or is that the idea con- 
 veyed in his charge ? Mr. B. must know that it is not ; 
 and his attempt to shuffle out of it in such a manner, only 
 adds to the disgrace incuiTed by making such an unfounded 
 charge. But he states that in giving my books I had an 
 advantage over him, as he did not give his books. I 
 appeal to those who attended that Discussion, whether 
 Mr. B. had a book in his hand the whole night but the 
 Bible — a book which the Reporter had no occasion to ask 
 him for, as every man either has a copy or may easily 
 procure one. Mr. Barker's statements about the Re- 
 porter's omissions, I shall leave him to settle with 
 the Reporter, merely adding, that I consider that the 
 Reporter executed his work in a masterly manner, and 
 
215 
 
 also that I repeatedly told Mr. B., that if the Reporter 
 had made omissions of the kind complained of, I should 
 not object to his correcting them, but that I could not 
 think of allowing him to give to the public, as his 
 speeches, matter to which he never gave utterance. He 
 also states that his speeches, in their most imperfect form, 
 contained sufficient answer to mine ; and yet the gentle- 
 man has not only mended his speeches, but has also kept 
 up a running hre in his Evangelical Reformer, and 
 finished by a gi'and discharge of artillery in his Appendix. 
 I should think the gentleman feels quite satislied that I 
 ani quietly inurned. 
 
 8. How, I would ask, does Mr. Barker attempt to get 
 out of the difficulty in which his reference to Mr. Geo, 
 Cave involved him ? His first statement was, that I re- 
 ferred him to the Reporter. This I denied. He then 
 stated that I did so in the presence of G. Cave. G. Cave 
 is then called, and says that he does not recollect it. 
 *' Oh," exclaims Mr. B. "I did not say he recollected 
 it ; he might have heard it and forgot !" I say again, 
 how unfortunate it is for this man that he should have so 
 far forgotten himself as to call a respectable witness. 
 
 9. Mr. Barker, at page 143 of his Appendix, enume- 
 rates six propositions which he states he made to me for 
 the puii)ose of bringing the matter to a close. Of these 
 the first was never made ; the second also was never 
 made : nevertheless I have acted strictly in accordance 
 with it ; and I would ask him how it comes that he him- 
 self is the party who has violated it? The' third w^as 
 made and rejected for its impracticability, as the whole 
 of our previous delay was occasioned by having a com- 
 mittee of three on each side, who neutralized each other, 
 and rendered a decision impossible. The fourth was 
 never made. The fifth was made and rejected, because I 
 considered it was what the gentleman was aiming at 
 during the whole of the dispute, he being utterly ashamed 
 of tlie mode in which he had acted his part in the affair ; 
 and this being rejected, the only chance he had to save 
 his credit was to alter and amend, until, as has before 
 been remarked, the original features of his speeches are 
 almost lost in the patches and paint he has laid on. The 
 sixth was also made and refused ; because I considered 
 him, in consequence of the conduct* he had displayed, 
 
 * I offer the folloTviiig as a specimen of his shameless disregard 
 >f truth and decency, in justification of my declining any farther 
 
216 
 
 totally unfit for further communication; and I would 
 also state that such opinion h yet unaltered. 
 
 10. Mr. Barker then goes on to state that he knows not 
 what else I wanted, unless it was to coiTect his speeches 
 as well as my own. Let it, however, he understood, that 
 I have not coiTected my own, neither did I wish to correct 
 his speeches. In his unfortunate Sheffield letter he stated 
 that I did correct his speeches, and gave them to thtj 
 printer to set up. In my first Appendix I offered to 
 refer this matter to the printer ; this, however, Mr. B. 
 in his reply, has thought proper to piiss over in silence, 
 which proves that he was fully aware of the dangerous 
 nature of such appeal. 
 
 He concludes his reply hy wishing that I may yet 
 enjoy with Iwn and others of my happier countrymen, 
 *' the pleasures and delights o^ gemiine piety." — " Genuine 
 piety !" — Faugh ! After this, King Richard's — " I thank 
 my God for my humility," — hecomes stale and fiat. 
 
 I now drop this unpleasant suhject, sorry that the 
 necessity of ihe case has rendered such a lengthy . intru- 
 sion on the time of the reader indispensable. 
 
 LLOYD JONES. 
 
 p. S. — Since writing the above, my atientu»n ha,s been drawn to charges 
 made by Jlr. Bnvker (p. 150) against some Socialists, with a statement of 
 kis ability to make move. As the gentlemnn has not su i names in 
 
 any of these cases, I cannot pretend to say to whom 1 f believe 
 
 most sincerely they are every one false, and an hon Aould be 
 
 ashamed Lo make them. The only case in which we arst,nit)ifcci to discover 
 the parly aUud?d to is that taken from G. Rccs's panouMffi^ a, pamphlet 
 which he states the Socialists of Manchester suppressed wnMLimidating the 
 booksellers. This is as fal'^c as falsehood can be. I bejia^ that a private 
 friend (who was no Socialist) of the party alluded to served notices on the 
 booksellers ; but to say that the Socialists didji, i-^ to say what is very false. 
 If what this per- on is charged with exXTtat^jjlagu, 0* tiling I very much 
 doubt,) it mu'-t have been k^ng befoi-e he becaifie a Socialist ; for since then 
 my own experience tells me that he is both a good father and a good hus- 
 band ; and supposing it all to be true, it speaks loudly for the moralizing 
 effects of Socialism. 
 
 L.J. 
 
 communication with him ; it is from page 28 of his " Orerthrow^ 
 of Infidel Socialism:" — "No man on eari'i," he sajs, "who ha3 
 not read their (the Socialists') -worLs, can conceive the horrible 
 obscenity and jUthineas to be found in tliem. I should do -svTong 
 to repeat the sentimenls contained in their works : ^ mention 
 of them would confound you ; and cause every maa and womaa 
 to hang down their heads with shame. Every cocnmunity is- to 
 be one vast brothel; the children are to be sysicmaticaUy trained 
 to use the filthiest lanyuaye that Iforniption can utter, and to regard 
 shame and modesty as vic^. They are to he allowed to mix with 
 one another without restraint, as a lierd of sheep, or a community 
 of days ; and encouraged in evcnj kind of lawless and infamou$ 
 intercourse." His pamphlet abounds with passages equally false 
 and gross j and yet this man talks of his "^renu/ne^^ie^y.'" 
 
 Cave and Sever, Printers, Manchester. 
 
^'vB 
 
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