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 A DEBATE 
 
 ON 
 
 Is Vivisection Immoral 
 Cruel, Useless . 
 and Unscientific ? 
 
 BETWEEN 
 
 WALTER R. HADWEN, Esq., 
 
 M.D., L.R.C.P., M.R.C.S., etc., 
 
 AND 
 
 STEPHEN PAGET, Esq., F.R.C.S. 
 
 HELD IN THE 
 
 Working Men's Hall 
 Shrewsbury, 
 
 DECEMBER 3rd, 1908. 
 
 Price 1/6 per dozen ; 10/- per 100. 
 
 Published by 
 
 The British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection, 
 
 32 Charing Cross, London, S. W. 
 
 r.*\KK*lKK+'*Z<*l*~*Z**'.*l*~+~-^^^^ 
 
 HB IB. KXftf ul 
 
 HISTORICAL COLl_SCTf«« 
 
The British Union 
 for the Abolition of Vivisection 
 
 ) ■ »>< 
 
 Foundress: FRANCES POWER COBBE. 
 
 Vice-Presidents : 
 
 H.S.H. Princess Ll'dwig Von 
 
 Lo WENSTEIN - WeRTHEIM . 
 
 The Lady Victoria Campbell. 
 The Countess of Dunraven. 
 Emma, Countess of Rayenswokth. 
 The Marchesa Lomellini 
 
 (Miss Mina Sandeman). 
 The Viscount Bangor. 
 The Viscountess Bangor. 
 The Viscountess Bolingbroke. 
 The Viscount Harberton. 
 The Viscountess Wolseley. 
 The Lady Wimborne. 
 The Lady Battersea. 
 The Lady Dunboyne. 
 The Lady Rosmead. 
 The Baroness de Knoop. 
 The Hon. Seymour F. Ormsby 
 
 Gore. 
 Sir Charles Skelton. 
 Sir George Kekewich, M.P. 
 
 Sir J. Bamford Slack. 
 
 The Dean of Clonmacnoise. 
 
 Col. Sandys, M.P. 
 
 Robert Cameron, Esq., M.P. 
 
 Judge Moss. 
 
 W. Field, Esq., M.P. 
 
 J. Hodge, Esq., M.P. 
 
 J. R. Clynes, Esq., M.P. 
 
 Gilbert McMicking, Esq., M.P. 
 
 Richard Bell, Esq., M.P. 
 
 James O'Grady, Esq., M.P. 
 
 A. W. Black, Esq., M.P. 
 
 K. E. O'Brien, Esq., M.P. 
 
 Dr. Macnamaka, M.P. 
 
 Mrs. Charles Thomas. 
 
 Mrs. Frank Morrison. 
 
 W. M. Roscoe, Esq., J.P. 
 
 Mr 8. Roscoe. 
 
 William Tebb, Esq. 
 
 Miss Janotha. 
 
 Miss Batten. 
 
 Hon. Secretary : 
 
 WALTER R. HADWEN, Esa., M.d! 
 
 Hon. Treasurer : 
 
 The Right Hon. VISCOUNT HARBERTON. 
 
 Headquarters of the Union 
 
 Secretary : 
 
 Miss B. E. KIDD. 
 : 32 Charing Cross, Whitehall, London, S.W. 
 
 Central Executive Committee : 
 
 Chairman : Rev. R. D. Monro, M.A. 
 
 The Lady Kathleen Bushe. 
 
 W. J. Cameron, Esq., M.D. 
 
 Madame Guerini. 
 
 R. W. Martindale, Esq. 
 
 Miss S. S. Monro. 
 
 R. D. Prankerd, Esq., M.D. 
 
 Mrs. Roscoe. 
 
 Alf. Rose, Esq. 
 
 The Lady Rosmead. 
 
 Rev. P. W. Sparling, M.A. 
 
 Rev. J. Verschoyle, M.A. 
 
 Harold Whiston, Esq. 
 
 Mies A. F. Whiteley. 
 
 Rev. J. S. Woodhouse, M.A. 
 
 Bankers : 
 
 Lloyds Bank, Limited, 16 St. James Street, London, S.W. 
 
A DEBATE 
 
 ON 
 
 Is Vivisection Immoral, Cruel, 
 Useless and Unscientific ? 
 
 BETWEEN 
 
 WALTER R. HADWEN, Esq., 
 M.D., L.R.C.P., M.R.C.S., Etc., 
 
 AND 
 
 STEPHEN PAGET, Esq., F.R.C.S. 
 
 HELD IN THE 
 
 WORKING MEN'S HALL, SHREWSBURY 
 
 ON 
 
 DECEMBER 3RD, 1908. 
 
 Price 1/6 per dozen, 10/= per 100. 
 
 Published by the British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection, 
 32 Charing Cross, London, S.W. 
 
YJ * 
 
 i 
 
 
 Digitized by the Internet Archive 
 in 2012 with funding from 
 Duke University Libraries 
 
 http://www.archive.org/details/debateonisviviseOOhadw 
 
IS VIVISECTION IMMORAL, CRUEL, 
 USELESS and UNSCIENTIFIC? 
 
 ( Verbatim Report by the official shorthand writer of the 
 " Shrewsbury Chronicle. "J 
 
 The Working Men's Hall, Shrewsbury, was well filled on 
 the evening of December 3rd, on the occasion of a meeting held 
 under the auspices of the British Union for the Abolition of 
 Vivisection. The front portion of the Hall was occupied 
 almost exclusively by a large array of local doctors with their 
 households, and a considerable body of nurses in uniform. 
 
 The Chairman, the Rev. F. Roberts, vicar of St. Giles', 
 Shrewsbury, contrasted the dimensions of the meeting with one 
 held 12 years ago during the Church Congress in Shrewsbury, 
 when also he was chairman. He went on to explain that the 
 present meeting had been called for the purpose of listening to a 
 lecture by Dr. Hadwen, but had now resolved itself into a 
 debate in response to a challenge from the medical men of 
 Shrewsbury. For his part he considered Dr. Hadwen had offered 
 very generous terms to the other side. Two questions would 
 probably be discussed that night. The first would be, " Does 
 the end sanctify the means ? " and the second would be, " Is 
 that end a satisfactory one ? " Dr. Hadwen was approached, 
 he understood, with a view to allowing an equal amount of 
 time to that occupied by himself. That was rather an unusual 
 request, where a lecture with a definite object had been an- 
 nounced, but it was immediately complied with by Dr. Hadwen 
 — (hear, hear, and applause) — who offered to turn the meeting 
 into a debate in which both sides were to have an equal amount 
 of time, Dr. Hadwen reserving to himself the right of a brief 
 ten minutes introduction in order to move a resolution and 
 explain the basis of its provisions. Afterwards he (the Chair- 
 man) would call upon Mr. Stephen Paget to speak for twenty 
 minutes, and then Dr. Hadwen would follow for twenty minutes. 
 Fifteen minutes would then be given to some medical supporters 
 of vivisection, to whom Dr. Hadwen would reply, oecupying 
 fifteen minutes. Afterwards Mr. Paget would have ten minutes, 
 and then Dr. Hadwen would close the debate in a speech of 
 similar length. 
 
(4) 
 DR. HADWEN'S INTRODUCTION. 
 
 Mr. Walter Hadwen, M.D., L.R.C.P., M.R.C.S., &c, said : 
 I must apologise for not complying with the published announce- 
 ment to deliver a lecture upon the subject which has brought us 
 together, but as Mr. Paget, who was to lead the opposition, has 
 refused hitherto to meet me except under ludicrously unfair 
 conditions, and as he has now offered to do so, I feel that there 
 should be no hesitation on my part in according to an opponent 
 the justice and courtesy which has so far been uniformly denied 
 to me. (Hear, hear, and applause.) I propose to put to the 
 meeting the following resolution to be voted upon at the close of 
 the debate : " That this meeting looks upon vivisection as morally 
 and scientifically unjustifiable, and contends that it ought to be 
 abolished." 
 
 By the term vivisection I use it in the broad sense, as 
 generally understood, signifying not only cutting operations, but 
 inoculations, which form a large proportion of the experiments 
 on animals, the injection of irritating matter into the eye, the 
 starvation of animals, or the feeding of them with nauseous 
 substances, the crushing of limbs, the extirpation of vital organs, 
 and so on. Vivisectors declare that the end justifies the means, 
 and the same reason has been given for the greatest tyrannies 
 and wickednesses which have disgraced the pages of history. 
 There could be no more immoral contention. (Applause.) 
 An intimate friend of Mr. Paget 's — Professor Starling — 
 told the Royal Commission recently that if there were no such 
 things as anaesthetics he would justify painful experiments 
 on animals, and men who had the moral courage to carry 
 out those experiments would be worthy of admiration rather 
 than condemnation. That is a cowardly utterance and contrary 
 to every principle of Christianity. (Applause.) 
 
 THE QUESTION OF PAIN. 
 
 But Mr. Paget may tell us, as he has said before at one 
 of his semi-private meetings, that he has never heard of a case 
 of intentional cruelty. I will not bandy words on the word 
 " intentional " : it is enough for me that there is cruelty, and 
 that if Mr. Paget knows nothing about it it is time he made 
 himself acquainted with the facts. (Hear, hear.) But what Mr. 
 Paget does not know there were some vivisectors candid enough 
 to admit. Prof. Pembrey, for instance, told the Royal Commis- 
 sion : " I think painful experiments are necessary ; I mean pain- 
 ful experiments as against experiments under anaesthetics. A 
 common-sense view should be taken of this question and pain 
 must be admitted. I admit I have done painful experiments, 
 and I am not ashamed of it. They are absolutely necessary." 
 
(5) 
 
 And yet Mr. Paget told a Torquay audience a month ago 
 that he had never heard of any. (Laughter.) Professor 
 Thane told the Royal Commission : " Animals experimented 
 on under Certificate B. do suffer severely while under observa- 
 tion after the experiment." And " in some cases, under 
 Certificate A, the injection is followed by great pain and 
 suffering." Dr. Power, Chief Medical Officer of the Home 
 Office, admitted " no doubt but that pain or uneasiness will 
 afterwards arise in cases where disease is the result of the 
 experiment." Further, Professor Thane declared in making 
 fistulas into pancreas, gall bladder, stomach, and so on, " it is 
 quite likely that the animals suffer to a certain extent." Those 
 were vivisectors' own statements, and yet Mr. Paget had never 
 heard of any such thing. Those are grave admissions, and I 
 deny the right of any man to do evil that good might come. 
 (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Further, I deny that any good has come from vivisection, 
 its cruelty and its blood have led only to blunders and contra- 
 dictions, and have discovered nothing at all for the amelioration 
 or cure of human diseases. More than that, it is unscientific. 
 The anatomical and physiological construction of the lower 
 animals is different from that of men. Sir Frederick Treves 
 admitted thst he was led astray on this account by his experi- 
 ments on dogs, and Charcot, the greatest brain surgeon that ever 
 lived, admitted, in view of errors in brain surgery through 
 animal experiments, that " the study of the brain, if it is to bear 
 fruit, must be on man " — the anatamo-clinical method was the 
 only sure guide — i.e., bedside experience, followed by ,an 
 anatomical study on the post-mortem table. Moreover, an 
 animal under fright upon the torture trough is never in a 
 normal condition ; the anaesthetic likewise tends to abnormality. 
 The effects produced by drugs are largely different in animals 
 and man. In fact, Professor Starling, Dr. Power, and Professor 
 Thane have all admitted that " the last experiment must be on 
 man." If, then, the last experiment, according to vivisectors, 
 must be on man, the first real experiment must commence there, 
 and all the previous experiments on the lower creatures, with all 
 their cruelty, are uncertain and calculated to be misleading. 
 
 I declare that the vivisection of living animals is immoral, 
 cruel, useless, and unscientific, and ought to be abolished. 
 (Cheers.) 
 
 MR. PAGET'S OPENING SPEECH. 
 
 Mr. Paget was loudly cheered on rising. He said : I am 
 very sorry I have lost my note-book. I had written a most 
 beautiful speech, and I cannot find it. What I have to say must 
 be said in a most halting fashion unless they find the note-book. 
 
(6) 
 
 This is a very funny debate. I have got to speak first. It is 
 rather like beginning with the dessert and working back from 
 the cheese until you get to the soup. (Laughter.) I never asked 
 to come here. I did not arrange anything. I am not here in 
 any particular capacity, except as a friend of doctors in Shrews- 
 bury. You know those doctors : they are here to-night. You 
 know the Shrewsbury doctors. You see them in and out at their 
 work ; at work all day and a good part of the night. You don't 
 know Dr. Hadwen, and he does not know Shrewsbury : I don't 
 know whether he knows the Abbey from St. Mary's, or the 
 Abbey from the Post Office. He is an ardent opponent of 
 vaccination — (Dr. Hadwen: "Hear, hear," and applause) — and 
 I hope if small-pox ever comes down among the Mardol slums 
 those who now applaud him will not have cause to regret their 
 decision to-night. I have to speak for 999 doctors out of every 
 1000. I am only going to tell you what every doctor believes. I 
 have got to tell you something about the real amount of pain 
 that is caused by all these experiments, and something about 
 the results that have been got from them. 
 
 Now let me first say, I have not the faintest wish to 
 see unrestricted experiments on animals in this country, 
 and I don't know anybody who has. (Hear, hear.) I 
 think that not only for the happiness of the public mind, 
 not only for the standard we always maintain in this 
 country of a decent care and regard for animals, but also in the 
 interest of science it is most desirable that experiments on 
 animals should be kept in the hands of experts. I cannot 
 imagine anything worse than if everyone were enabled to do 
 exactly what he liked without regard to his position in science or 
 in medicine, or anything else, or without regard to his previous 
 training or his mental gifts. If every ambitious young chap 
 wanted to discover a cure for something or other the whole 
 ground would be blocked by those who thought they had found 
 a wonderful cure, and half the time would be spent in proving 
 that what they had found was not true. Nothing better could 
 be done than the restriction of vivisectional experiments on 
 animals. For 12 years I was secretary of the Association which 
 looks after the working of the Act, and advises the Home Office 
 as to every application for a license or for a certificate under the 
 Act. That is to say, for 12 years I was in constant correspon- 
 dence with the Home Office over the whole business of experi- 
 ments on animals in this country. Now it is quite certain that 
 the working of the Act, and the administration of the Act, are 
 very different matters. If you read the text of the Act you will 
 see that all sorts of things are allowed. Nothing is said about 
 antiseptic precautions, nothing is said about killing the animal 
 if suppuration occurs, nothing is said as to the number of 
 
(7) 
 
 animals that may be used in a 'series of experiments, nothing is 
 said of the sending in of an interim report. All sorts of restric- 
 tions are in force by the Home Office which are not in the text 
 of the Act. There is a great deal of difference between the 
 administration of the Act and the text of the Act, and anybody 
 who has worked for as many years as I did for this Act will 
 understand that the Act is administered not only in the letter 
 but in the spirit. 
 
 THE WORKING OF THE ACT. 
 
 Now I come to say something of the work that is actually 
 done under the Act. Understand, I admire the Act. Of course 
 it is an antiquated, obsolete, and out-of-date old Act ; it is 32 
 years old, and it was drafted before there was any such thing as 
 inoculation. It was drafted by a lot of people who were not 
 prophets ; they did not know what was coming ; they had hardly 
 heard of Pasteur ; there was no provision for inoculation nor for 
 a good many other things which have been discovered. The 
 Act is out of date, and I hope the present Royal Commission 
 will put the Act into the melting-pot ; Certificate A and B you 
 hear so much about will go into the melting-pot, and the Act 
 will be brought into shape that will fit the needs of the present 
 day, and I have no doubt more inspection will be arranged for, 
 and a very good thing, too. When the Act was passed there 
 were but a few hundred vivisections. Then came bacteriology, 
 the work of Pasteur, and Lister, and their followers, and the 
 work went up by leaps and bounds. Now the amount of work 
 is a thousand-fold what it was. The result is that the inspectors 
 are overworked : there are not enough of them. It is not only 
 the work of actually looking on in the laboratory and seeing the 
 animals in the laboratory that have been inoculated : it is the 
 correspondence, etc. For my own part, I hope the new Act will 
 provide for an increase in the number of Inspectors — it is most 
 proper and right that it should. 
 
 Now I come to the work that is actually being done in our 
 own country at the present time under the Act. I am not going 
 to range over the whole history of the thing, as Dr. Hadwen 
 proposes. He may have heard of dreadful things a long time 
 ago and a long way off. Our business is with the work in our 
 own country at the present time. (Dr. Hadwen: Hear, hear.) 
 What is the fact about that work ? Of all experiments made on 
 animals in this country 96% per cent, are of the nature of 
 inoculations. In them there is no sort or kind of surgical 
 operation on the animal. It is not cut open, it is not 
 cut, it is not mutilated, and it is not put under an anaesthetic : 
 the actual inoculation is the prick of a needle. (Hear, hear.) 
 Now the results of the inoculation. These inoculations are done, 
 
(8) 
 
 a great part of them, for two great diseases which are the 
 scourge of our nation — tuberculosis and cancer. I may say- 
 that these two diseases are inoculated into animals not to please 
 any men of science, but to please you. They are done by the 
 Government, they are done by the Home Office, by the War 
 Office, and by the Board of Agriculture and its officials ; Muni- 
 cipal Corporations and County Councils order all these inocula- 
 tions. The testing of milk, the testing of cattle is part and 
 parcel of the service of the public health. It is you who 
 appoint, you who pay, you who approve the vivisectors. For the 
 mere testing of milk and meat, for the mere guarding of your 
 food supplies, thousands of animals are inoculated, vivisected if 
 you like : the work is part of the work of the Government, part 
 of the work of the public bodies. What is the pain of the 
 operation for tubercle ? How many of you are there who have 
 not seen a child with a tuberculous gland in its neck ? The 
 gland may suppurate, but which of you does not know children 
 with glands in their necks running about as happy as other 
 children ? Why should a tuberculous gland be painless in a 
 child and painful in a guinea pig ? (Hear, hear.) Besides, when 
 the guinea pig has got an enlarged gland the experiment is done, 
 and the pig is killed. Nothing is gained by keeping a guinea 
 pig with an enlarged gland in its neck. You inject the guinea 
 pig with tubercle, by-and-bye the gland enlarges ; if the pig gets 
 off its food you kill it. 
 
 Cancer — what is the pain of inoculation of cancer ? The 
 great increase — the number which seems so alarming to you 
 anti-vivisectionists — is the inoculation of mice with cancer. That 
 is the work of the Imperial Research Fund. There were 73,000 
 experiments made on animals in 1907. If I remember aright, 
 out of those no less than 40,000 were inoculations of mice with 
 cancer. Out of those 40,000, again I am right in saying, only 
 about 25 per cent, were successful — that is to say, 10,000 mice 
 got a little nodule of cancer under the skin. Now a nodule of 
 cancer under the skin is painless, and the doctors wish to God 
 it was painful, and then they would have a better story to tell of 
 the treatment of cancer. (Applause.) 
 
 PAINLESS VIVISECTION. 
 
 It is just because cancer in its early stages is painless that 
 it is such a damnably serious matter to have it. If cancer had a 
 painful right of way you would take alarm, you would have 
 something done, and you might never have it again. As it is 
 now, it happens that the doctor is saying to the patient, " Why 
 did you let it go on so long ? " And the patient says, " Because 
 it was not painful." And if that is the case with 'a man and a 
 
(9) 
 
 woman, how much pain does a mouse have with a little 
 nodule of cancer under the skin? Before the Royal 
 Commission the President of the Royal College of Surgeons 
 explained all about that. He told them the mice sleep, they 
 feed, they seem quite comfortable ; there are no nerves running 
 into the tiny little nodule, if you squeeze it they don't seem to 
 mind, and if they get a chance they breed. He said there were 
 two sets of mice divided by a little partition, and they nibbled 
 down the partition and bred. It is absurd to talk of torture in 
 that sort of work. (Hear, hear.) Ninety-six per cent, of these 
 sort of things are inoculations. I do not deny there is pain 
 caused by inoculation. There were rats inoculated with lock- 
 jaw : they were in pain for a quarter of an hour — the same sort 
 of thing as if you had set rat poison about the house. Have you 
 ever seen a case of lock-jaw ? If you had you would let a 
 thousand rats be inoculated — (hear, hear, and applause) — not to 
 save yourselves, not from any selfish motives, only that you 
 know that there are men and women who will die of it, a certain 
 number bound to die of it. You will do anything to save these 
 unknown men and women from dying of lock-jaw. (Applause.) 
 That is 96^ per cent, of all the experiments on animals. I don't 
 know whether there are any experiments being made with lock- 
 jaw now ; I hope there are. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Now about the remainder : the experiments in physiology in 
 which the animal is kept under ansesthetics. Professor Starling 
 said in the course of 17 years constant work he had never once 
 seen pain inflicted in a physiological experiment. He is a man 
 of the nicest honour, of the prettiest honour. He won't shoot — 
 he thinks it cruel. The President of the National Anti- Vivisec- 
 tion Society, which is eight times the size of Dr. Hadwen's 
 Society, is a great sportsman. He is known in the newspapers 
 for his big shoots, his country-house parties, and so on. 
 (Laughter and applause.) He is the President of Mr. Coleridge's 
 society and shoots, but Professor Starling won't shoot. 
 If you don't believe me, here are one or two other beautiful 
 Americans — you are bound to believe them. (Laughter.) Here 
 is Dr. Hodge. I don't know much about him, but I daresay he 
 is a great swell over there. He says in more than 10 years' 
 experiments in various laboratories in his country and abroad he 
 has never had occasion to perform or witness an experiment of 
 a painful class, and Dr. Carrel, who is a great professor, a pro- 
 fessor of physiology at Harvard, says, " I can testify to the same 
 experience in my own career of 12 years." 
 
 I want to speak about myxoedema, yellow fever, plague, 
 rabies. How can I do it in the time ? But you have got your 
 own doctors here ; if you don't believe me, and even if you don't 
 believe Dr. Hadwen — (laughter) — ask them. Here you have to- 
 
do) 
 
 night men whom you know and trust — no strangers, men you 
 know. Take their advice in this matter. Now I have no time 
 to talk science, I have only time to talk morality ; I am going to 
 talk a little about the morality of anti-vivisection. I don't 
 find it easy to see it. (Hear, hear.) Anti-vivisection is such 
 a fine thing — it makes such an appeal to you. But an 
 appeal made so ambitious as that is bound to regard the whole 
 moral law — it is bound to regard the law of peace, and the law 
 of charity, and the law of truth. Now, what has anti-vivisection 
 to do with peace any more than Jehu in the Bible story ? There 
 are 17 anti-vivisection societies — I believe there are 18 now, and 
 they quarrel like cats. (Laughter.) They are divided into two 
 great camps — one who wants to get everything they can, and 
 one who wants to get everything whether they can or can't. 
 (Laughter.) Some call themselves Restrictionists ; some call 
 themselves Abolitionists. They quarrel, they denounce each 
 other. No one has been more furiously denounced than Dr. 
 Hadwen by other anti-vivisectionists — (laughter) — and he has 
 done his share. Perhaps I should not say that, but, at any rate, 
 they don't have much to say to him, nor he to them. The only 
 thing they are agreed upon is getting in the money, and they 
 have got in £8o,000, and they have done with it nothing. I can't 
 find out what they have done. They have been at work 35 years ; 
 they began when the Act was passed ; there are 17 of them ; I 
 cannot find out what they have done. What have they done 
 with the money ? The biggest society of all accuses all the little 
 societies of spending it on entirely unnecessary salaries of 
 officers. The biggest society says : " I cannot be responsible 
 for a lot of societies that print a lot of extremely inaccurate 
 literature." (Laughter.) You cannot find out what they have 
 done. Experiments on animals with the discovery of bacteriology 
 have gone up by leaps and bounds, and really if you look at the 
 record from year to year of the number of experiments they 
 might all have been vivisection societies — 
 
 (At this point the bell rang, and Mr. Paget resumed his seat.) 
 
 DR. HADWEN'S REPLY. 
 
 Dr. Hadwen, replying, said ; Mr. Paget opened by telling us 
 this was a funny debate, but he has made it funnier. (Hear, 
 hear.) He has not attempted to tackle one point out of the 
 whole of the points which I laid down for him to meet, as to the 
 morality or the scientific character of vivisection. lie has had 
 twenty minutes, and up to the present time he has not proved one 
 single point. (Applause.) 
 
 He tells us that I have practically the whole medical pro- 
 fession against me. Well, I think if we look back through 
 
(II) 
 
 history we shall find that right never has been with majorities. 
 (Hear, hear.) But it does not follow because there are large 
 numbers against me that I am therefore wrong. What we have 
 to do with is to discuss not the question of majorities or minori- 
 ties, but whether vivisection is right or whether vivisection is 
 wrong. (Cheers.) He told us vivisection ought to be kept 
 in the hands of experts. My opinion is this — if there is 
 one person in the whole of God's creation that wants 
 looking after it is an expert. (Laughter and applause.) It does 
 not matter what department it is, an expert is one that requires 
 to be very closely watched. Mr. Paget has gone into the 
 question of the Act of Parliament. He appears to know a great 
 deal as to what the Royal Commission is going to do. He 
 appears to be in the secret of the Royal Commission. He says 
 they are going to put Certificate A and Certificate B into the 
 melting-pot. He does not tell us what it is going to turn out, 
 but he says we want more power in regard to bacteriology. 
 Considering there are 70,000 experiments in a year, as he tells us, 
 already, Heaven only knows what we are going to get to next, 
 if we are going to increase that sort of thing. (Hear, hear) 
 
 He says the present Act is antiquated. The present Act is 
 simply this ; The first part says that no person is to vivisect 
 unless the animal is placed under an anaesthetic, and that it is 
 to be killed before it recovers. But the second part of the Act 
 will allow a certificate to be taken out to perform any experi- 
 ments whatever that may pass the supervision of the Home 
 Office and the So; iety for the Advancement of Medicine by 
 Research. That is practically a Vivisection Society, composed 
 of vivisectors, to whom is referred every application for a 
 vivisection experiment. And that is the character of the 
 administration which Mr. Paget has dilated so much upon ; an 
 administration which is absolutely contradictory. 
 
 He tells us that at the present time the inspectors are over- 
 worked. I don't know how that can be, for according to a statement 
 made before the Royal Commission by no less a person than the 
 Chief Inspector himself, out of the 2,506 vivisections that were not 
 inoculations he himself had only seen in the past year 15. That 
 did not look very much like overwork. (Hear, hear.) There 
 are two inspectors for the whole of England and Wales. That 
 is the total staff, and it was acknowledged by the Chief Inspector 
 that no one complained at the present time of red tape as they 
 used to do. The Chief Inspector told the Assistant Inspector 
 that he was to visit registered places about three times a year, 
 and said " he expressly told me I was not to act as a detective." 
 So we are to have more of that kind of thing, says Mr. Stephen 
 Paget. The inspectors are to be increased ; we are to have men 
 who are not to be like other inspectors, but who are simply to 
 
(12) 
 
 look at the condition of the laboratories, and who are not to 
 exercise anything like detective powers over those who are 
 carrying on the work behind the laboratory doors ! My own 
 impression about the matter is that to increase the number of 
 inspectors will be one of the most dangerous things that can 
 possibly be done in regard to the vivisection of animals. And 
 why ? Because you are creating a great vested interest in vivi- 
 section itself, and the very men who will be appointed to look 
 after vivisection will be the men who are keenly and financially 
 interested in keeping this abominable system going. (Hear, 
 hear, and applause.) 
 
 THE PRICK OF A PIN. 
 
 He tells us that inoculation is nothing more nor less than 
 the prick of a pin. As Sidney Smith once said, " I should like 
 to know what the dog has to say about that." (Laughter, and 
 hear, hear.) It is all very well for him to say the mouse feels 
 nothing. Somebody comes and sees this creature swollen up 
 with a tumour three times its body weight. (Laughter, and cries 
 of " No " from the doctors.) 
 
 These medical men in front of me say " No." That only 
 shows what has been proved over and over again that medical 
 men who profess to speak with authority on this subject don't 
 know a bit what is being done in the laboratories. (Applause, 
 loud and continued.) Thank you, but pray don't waste my 
 time. These medical men don't know what they are talking 
 about. The tumour that is created in the mouse under the 
 Cancer Research Fund is not human cancer at all : it is Jensen's 
 tumour. And the character of that tumour shows conclusively 
 that it is no guide whatever to the elaboration of the human 
 cancer, because that growth extends in the mouse to three times 
 its own weight, and I challenge any one of these medical men 
 who are boo-ing at me to-night to disprove a single word of what 
 I say in regard to it. 
 
 Dr. Urwick : May I ask, have you ever seen it ? 
 
 Dr. Hadwen : Sit down ; sit down. 
 
 Dr. Hadwen, resuming : We were told it was only the prick 
 of a pin in regard to the pain that is actually caused. 
 Supposing the animals could themselves talk, we should have 
 some grounds for believing it. But animals don't talk. Vivi- 
 sectors do talk, — (laughter, and hear, hear) — and when they come 
 to judge the pain animals suffer with these tumours inside them 
 and profess to gauge that pain according to the suffering human 
 beings pass through, then I say they have no right to come 
 here and talk in that way, and say it means nothing more than 
 the prick of a pin. It may be only the prick of a pin to inject a 
 disease into that animal's body, but when that disease slowly 
 
(13) 
 
 generates, when that disease increases and goes on until, as 1 
 have seen them by the hundred in the Pasteur Institute in Paris, 
 the victims are in the greatest pain and agony, then I say it is 
 nothing but fooling to stand here and talk about the mere prick 
 of a pin. It is nothing more nor less than a discredit to 
 humanity to inflict such suffering and pain as I have seen upon 
 these poor, helpless creatures who cannot defend themselves 
 against a higher power. (Loud applause.) 
 
 Again, Mr. Paget spoke about tuberculosis. That it was 
 simply an enlargement of a gland, and all that sort of thing. 
 Very well, I don't know why we should give these enlarged 
 glands to these animals. If anything had ever been gained by it 
 all well and good, but has anything ever been gained by it ? 
 ^"Yes" and applause.) Very well, you cry "Yes." We will 
 turn to no less a person with regard to tuberculosis than Dr. 
 Koch. Dr. Koch in his " Cure of Consumption," page 8, refers 
 to experiments upon guinea pigs. Dr. Koch is the man 
 who is supposed to have discovered the tubercle bacillus, the 
 man who invented tuberculin, and who declared emphatically that 
 phthisis can be cured with certainty by this remedy, yet had to 
 acknowledge before a large number of scientific men in 
 London that after all his bombastic utterances there was 
 no cure for consumption but God's fresh air. (Hear, hear, and 
 applause.) He says, " Here again is a fresh and conclusive proof 
 of that most important rule for all experimentalists, that an 
 experiment upon an animal gives no certain indication of the 
 result of the same experiment upon a human being." (Cheers.) 
 
 THE RIGHTS OF ANIMALS. 
 
 Now Mr. Paget has quoted lock-jaw. He said, had you ever 
 seen a person die of lock-jaw you would be willing for thousands 
 of rats to suffer. Why ? Because you see a person die of lock- 
 jaw what right have you to go and torture a thousand rats, even 
 if they are only vermin? (Hear, hear.) He says he does not 
 know if lock-jaw experiments are being carried on now, but he 
 hopes so. I hope not. The fact is, they have been given up 
 simply because they have turned out to be a failure. 
 
 Mr. Paget : I only said as far as I know no experiments on 
 that subject are being made in England. 
 
 Mr. Hadwen : And I will tell Mr. Paget why :— The chief 
 adviser of the Board of Agriculture told the Royal Commission, 
 " I cannot say that tetanus serum is any advantage as a curative 
 agent," and " the serum used in a case of tetanus is not efficacious 
 after the symptoms are manifest." And Dr. Morris, the President 
 of the Royal College of Surgeons, said, " as a curative it has 
 been practically given up." Further, Dr. Whitla remarks, " not- 
 
(14) 
 
 withstanding all the reported successes, there is little evidence of 
 the value of injections of the anti-tetanic serum." Therefore, in 
 the face of the evidence of these men, vivisectors themselves, of 
 the absolute failure of tetanic serum, I ask why, because you see 
 a man die of lock-jaw, you should go and torture thousands of 
 rats, when according to their own evidence their own experi- 
 ments have proved to be futile ? (Applause.) 
 
 He says that Prof. Starling, whom he describes as a man of 
 such pretty honour that he will not shoot, in the course of 17 
 years, had never seen a case of pain in his laboratory. Here I 
 will quote from Prof. Starling himself. He wrote in his 
 " Elements of Human Physiology," speaking of nerve 
 stimulants, " They may produce one or more of four effects. 
 (i) Pain as evidenced by the movements of an animal not fully 
 under the influence of the anaesthetic." How does he know that ? 
 Prof. Starling speaks from personal experience ; he speaks of 
 pain being evidenced by the movements of the animal. On 
 another page he enlarges upon the fact of such stimulation 
 producing pain. How could Prof. Starling say that a painful 
 stimulation of the nerve produces a certain result unless he had 
 produced that pain and seen that pain for himself? And yet 
 Mr. Paget tells us for 17 years he has never seen pain in the 
 laboratory ! (Laughter and applause.) 
 
 We don't want to make this earth a hell for animals. It is 
 clear enough from the statements I produced from vivisectors 
 themselves when I gave my introductory remarks that there is 
 pain. That there is pain, and severe pain, is acknowledged by the 
 vivisectors themselves, not as he says years ago in lands across the 
 sea, but at home, and by the Home Office and Government Inspec- 
 tors who declared it not six months ago before the Royal Com- 
 mission. What we wish to see is this : There is Martin's Act at 
 the present time which says any person guilty of cruelty to any 
 animal shall be brought up before the Bench and punished for 
 his cruelty. A costermonger may be summoned for working a 
 donkey when unfit, or ill-using the animal. He may plead that 
 because he has got a wife and family starving at home he was 
 obliged to take and work that poor creature, although 
 it was suffering. But the magistrates will say " we have 
 nothing to do with the benefits you say are to be derived from 
 the results of your cruelty : you have been cruel, and therefore 
 we fine you and punish you for what you have done." And what 
 we declare is this, that the scientist has no right to be placed on 
 a higher level than the costermonger. It is a disgrace that in 
 this land of boasted Christianity and justice there should be one 
 law for the rich and influential and another law for the poor. 
 (Applause, long continued.) 
 
(15) 
 
 DR. URWICK'S SPEECH. 
 
 Dr. Urwick said : My only excuse for speaking to-night is 
 that I think amongst all the people present to-night of the 
 members of the profession, I may say I have seen more experi- 
 ments on animals than anybody else here, and I think it is only 
 fair that I should give you my experience, and afterwards my 
 opinion on the matter. First let me say that if anybody says 
 that no amount of benefit to humanity justifies cruelty to 
 animals, I honour that man to a certain extent, but I cannot 
 understand him. (Hear, hear.) I only honour him if he does 
 not use animals for any purpose of his own, if he does not eat 
 them or use them for any purpose by which they are put to pain 
 or inconvenience. (Hear, hear.) To be thorough he must not 
 do that, and I can only honour people who are thorough in that 
 manner. I have worked in the Physiological Laboratory at 
 Cambridge (where many awful things have been said to be done), 
 in the Pathological Laboratory at Cambridge (where more awful 
 things are said to be done), the Pathological Laboratory at St. 
 Bartholomew's Hospital under Professor Klein. I have worked 
 in these four laboratories, and may I testify to you, and swear if 
 you wish, that I have never seen any unnecessary pain inflicted 
 upon animals. (Hear, hear, and applause.) That is my own 
 personal experience. Some of you know me, I am not a habitual 
 liar — (laughter) — and that I will swear to — I have never seen un- 
 necessary pain inflicted. The medical profession cannot get out 
 of the responsibility by saying we don't know of the experiments. 
 (Hear, hear.) We do know. 
 
 A few years ago doctors and scientists were quite separate : 
 now, thanks to the improved education of doctors, a doctor and 
 a scientist are synonymous terms. All doctors are scientists, 
 and we are all obliged to know before we are qualified all that is 
 possible about these scientific facts and theories. I say we all 
 know these things are done, and no amount of quibbling that we 
 have not seen them can relieve us of our responsibility. This 
 attack on vivisection is an attack on the medical profession. 
 (Hear, hear, and applause.) We cannot get out of it, and there 
 are only two ways of looking at it : either we of the medical 
 profession are so ignorant that we don't know what is right and 
 what is wrong, what is scientific and what is unscientific, or, 
 knowing that, our love of blood and cruelty, whichever way you 
 like to put it, has so blunted our wisdom and knowledge that we 
 cannot apply it, and we cannot see that these experiments are 
 blind, blood-thirsty, and wicked. 
 
 THE VOICE OF AUTHORITY. 
 I should like to ask you, whether you signify your approval 
 or not of the resolution, whether you agree to that. There is no 
 
(16) 
 
 other issue : that is the clear issue. The medical profession as 
 a whole aoprove of these experiments, in spite of what Dr. 
 Hadwen says. They know them thoroughly, and know what is 
 being done, and if they don't oppose them, as Dr. Hadwen, to 
 his credit does, anybody who does not oppose them approves of 
 them, and the clear issue is either to prove to us you do or you 
 don't know. You are either ignorant, which is Dr. Hadwen's 
 phrase, or you are cruel and bloodthirsty. May I say also this ? 
 The experiments I have seen done are exceedingly unpleasant, 
 very very distasteful to me. I always hated them. Nobody 
 enjoys seeing operations on people. There is a scientific interest 
 in them, but it is unpleasant and loathsome. We do it 
 because we think it is right. (Hear, hear, and applause.) We 
 know it adds to our knowledge, and we think it is to the benefit 
 of humanity. (Hear, hear, and applause.) We may be wrong : 
 if Dr. Hadwen is cleverer than we are then we are wrong. Other- 
 wise if we are not fools we are knaves, and we are cruel, we are 
 heartless brutes, and that is the clear issue before you to-night. 
 That is the clear issue: the whole medical profession are ignorant 
 or else they are knaves. I have never seen unnecessary cruelty. 
 I have seen very unpleasant things done. I have seen them done 
 by people who have the same feelings as myself, and they have 
 always done them in the most humane manner possible. 
 
 You say the expert is a man not to be trusted. That does 
 not mean anything, but I will say this : you know the medical 
 profession among you, you know what lives they have saved. I 
 know myself from knowledge got from learning in other ways, 
 and learning got from experiments on animals. Those two facts 
 are bound up together: you cannot separate what is got from 
 experiments on animals and what is got in other ways. Any- 
 one who disapproves of experiments on animals and is a doctor 
 should at once give up practice, because he cannot separate the 
 knowledge got from experiments on animals and the knowledge 
 got in other ways. You cannot separate the two. Dr. Hadwen, 
 to be thorough and honest, should give up practice entirely. 
 (Hear, hear, and applause.) From time immemorial vivisection 
 has been done, and from time immemorial things have been 
 found out by it. They might have been found out otherwise 
 after many years, by other methods — that is impossible to prove. 
 Things have been found out lately. Things might have been 
 found out in ten or twenty years' time, but in the meantime how 
 many valuable lives have been lost ! (Hear, hear.) I hope you 
 will remember it is either a case of the doctors being honest and 
 straightforward, and wishing to do their best for humanity, or 
 not — there is nothing else. (Hear, hear, and applause.) 
 
(17) 
 DR. WHEATLEY'S SPEECH. 
 
 Dr. Wheatley (County Medical Officer of Health) said : I 
 shall confine myself in these remarks simply to the bearing of 
 the question on the protection of the public health. I shall not 
 deal with whether it is admissable in any circumstances to per- 
 form experiments upon animals. I shall take it for granted that 
 if we can see an enormous benefit to humanity by experiments 
 upon animals, and that those experiments are conducted with 
 the least possible pain, or without pain altogether, then it is 
 perfectly right that those experiments should be made. (Hear, 
 hear, and applause.) 
 
 Now I shall confine myself to the bearing upon three 
 diseases — tuberculosis, diphtheria, and small-pox. We shall 
 shortly be having in this county a large meeting, I hope, to 
 consider the prevention of tuberculosis. (Hear, hear, and 
 applause.) One aspect of the prevention of tuberculosis is to 
 provide milk free from the tubercle bacillus. Now it is perfectly 
 clear and well understood in the medical profession that at the 
 present time the only way we can tell whether the milk contains 
 tubercle germs is by inoculating an animal, say a guinea-pig, 
 with a portion of the milk treated in a certain way. If we wish 
 to have a pure milk supply to our town we have to sample the 
 milk that comes in, inoculate it into the guinea-pig, and in that 
 way we find out whether it is liable to convey tubercle or not, 
 and the farm will be visited and the animals eliminated. That 
 is being done at the present time in the large cities in this 
 country— in Manchester, in Liverpool, and to some extent in 
 Birmingham, and the milk is being freed from the poison of 
 tubercle. The experiments that have to be made for this pur- 
 pose are certainly painless except for the prick of the needle. 
 The growth that takes place is undoubtedly a painless growth. 
 We can judge this with certainty, because similar growths in the 
 human subject are painless. And yet by these simple experi- 
 ments we are able to detect the most serious poison in the milk, 
 we shall be able to free the milk supplies of our large towns, and 
 be able to prevent the serious diseases in our children which kill 
 .so many of them — (hear, hear, and applause) — phthisis of the 
 intestines and of the joints and bones that so commonly affect 
 children. Now is it an adequate result or is it not that we can 
 free our milk supply in this way, and that we can protect the 
 mass of the population from these diseases? (Hear, hear, and 
 applause.) I say it is an adequate result of these painless 
 injections. (Hear, hear, and applause.) 
 
 I wish to speak on the question of diphtheria. Personally, 
 I have an enormous experience of the value of anti-toxin in the 
 cure or the prevention of the spread of diphtheria. (Hear, hear.) 
 
(i8) 
 
 All medical men, I think, almost without exception, will admit 
 that the injection of anti-toxin, which we have only been able to 
 arrive at from these experiments, will cure diphtheria when 
 injected early enough, and will prevent it if injected before the 
 attack. (Hear, hear, and applause.) It is hardly necessary for 
 me to say anything with regard to vaccination, but I have no 
 hesitation in saying this county, since I have been in it, would 
 have had most serious epidemics of small-pox if it had not been 
 that the majority of the people were protected by vaccination. 
 Chairman : Now you have one minute more. 
 
 DR. SPRIGG'S REMARKS. 
 
 Mr. Sprigg, another local doctor, said : Recently we had a 
 man suspected of anthrax, who had a pustule on his arm. The 
 doctor very wisely took some stuff from that and injected it into 
 a guinea-pig. The guinea-pig died, and that proved pretty con- 
 clusively that the man had anthrax. That man would certainly 
 have been a dead man in a week if it had not been for what was 
 done to the guinea pig. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 DR. HADWEN ANSWERS. 
 
 Dr. Hadwen, replying, said : We have had now three 
 medical men who have dealt with the subject. The first one, 
 Dr. Urwick, has devoted himself nearly the whole time to en- 
 larging upon what Mr. Stephen Paget said in his first address, viz., 
 as to the value of the opinion of the majority of medical men. I 
 again assert I care nothing for the opinion of the majority of 
 medical men. (Laughter and applause). But what I want 
 proved is that the majority of medical men are right, and none 
 of these medical men have done so yet. (Renewed applause). 
 
 Dr. Urwick says he has never seen any unnecessary pain 
 inflicted upon animals. That blessed word " unnecessary " may 
 cover a multitude of sins — (hear, hear) — and what Dr. 
 Urwick may consider unnecessary pain and what another 
 person may consider necessary pain, and what the poor animal 
 may consider necessary are all vastly different things. 
 He says a medical man must be either ignorant or cruel. 
 I will tell you candidly from my experience of the matter I 
 don't believe my brother medical men are as a rule intentionally 
 cruel. (Laughter). I have given you instances of absolute cruelty 
 and acknowledged cruelty by vivisectors themselves, and no 
 medical man has dared to attempt to disprove these statements, 
 but I must candidly say that I do consider the majority of my 
 medical brethren are ignorant upon this subject. (Laughter and 
 applause). And what is more, out of scores and scores of my 
 brother medical men to whom I have spoken upon the subject, 
 
(19) 
 
 everyone of them up to the present time has candidly confessed 
 to me that he is ignorant. (Laughter). 
 
 Now, he says that a person has a right to vivisect because 
 it adds to knowledge, and he says " we think it is for the 
 benefit of humanity." It is all very well to consider it adds to 
 knowledge and that it is for the benefit of humanity, but what I 
 have tried to get at is, is this proved? (Laughter). It is all 
 very well to say it adds to knowledge ; I say it does not. It is 
 all very well to say it has been proved to result in the benefit of 
 humanity ; I say it has never been of the slightest benefit in the 
 amelioration or the cure of any human disease — (" No, no," from 
 medical men) — and I want someone to prove that it has. It is 
 no use making statements — we want proofs. (Hear, hear, and 
 applause). 
 
 He says " you cannot separate the knowledge obtained by 
 vivisection from other things." Then let me know definitely 
 what is the knowledge you have had from vivisection ; let me 
 know what you claim is the result of it. If you don't know, as 
 Dr. Urwick appears to admit, then we will leave the subject, but 
 if there are benefits be prepared to say what they are and I will 
 oe prepared to meet the assertions. (Applause). 
 
 TUBERCULOSIS FALLACY. 
 
 Now I admire Dr. Wheatley. (Laughter). Dr. Urwick has 
 done nothing but make assertions and has proved nothing, but 
 Dr. Wheatley has attempted to prove something and I admire 
 him for it. He says " vivisection is for the protection of public 
 health," and he instances first of all the case of tuberculosis. 
 Very well, then, let us look at tuberculosis. He lays great stress 
 upon the discovery of the tubercle bacillus. But supposing you 
 have the man who discovered the tubercle bacillus, Prof. Koch, 
 telling the Scientists in London two or three years ago that 
 bovine tuberculosis was not communicable to man at all ? If 
 that is the case, all these experiments upon the milk are absolutely 
 useless. (Hear, hear.). Then we have the Tuberculosis Com- 
 mission in London. They spent £48,000 to prove that Koch was 
 all wrong ; these English vivisectionists contradicted the German 
 vivisectionists, and came to the opposite conclusion. Last month 
 we had the International Tuberculosis Congress in Washing- 
 ton, and they were in such a hopeless muddle that they had been 
 experimenting upon some charity children in Hungary to try to 
 settle the question that way, and the Washington Council had 
 the audacity to provide ten more poor charity children to enable 
 those scientists to carry on their experiments and to try to come 
 to a scientific conclusion. And what was the result ? Why the 
 scientists, with Prof. Koch and, other savants of the Tuber- 
 
(20) 
 
 culosis Congress, came to high words and noisy squabbles, 
 and they left the whole thing absolutely unsettled after all. 
 And yet Dr. Wheatley told you it is absolutely necessary to be 
 examining your milk for the bacillus when the leading experts 
 upon the subject cannot agree among themselves as to its value. 
 (Laughter, and hear, hear). 
 
 But how does Dr. Wheatley explain this: — Moeller — a 
 scientist of European reputation, declared at Eastbourne in IQ02, 
 when Koch read his paper, that he had found a bacillus in the 
 dung of healthy cows that could not be distinguished from the 
 tubercle bacillus either by the microscope or by staining? Pray, 
 what value are Dr. Wheatley's investigations in guinea pigs, when 
 the cow itself declines to afford any satisfactory evidence upon the 
 subject? (Laughter and applause'. Why, actually Professor 
 Stockman himself, Chief Veterinary Officer of the Local Govern- 
 ment Board, told the Royal Commission in answer to question 
 3082 that he could not say positively that the bacilli he finds in 
 milk are tubercle bacilli. How on earth, then, can Dr. Wheatley 
 be positive as to his own conclusions in Shropshire ? Professor 
 Stockman owned that " owing to the similarities there is a great 
 possibility of error." Furthermore, he declared that mere 
 microscopical examination for the tubercle bacillus is not 
 reliable and consequently you can get no definite result. Now, 
 I will go farther and I will challenge Dr. Wheatley to prove that 
 the tubercle bacillus is the origin of consumption at all. 
 (Laughter and applause). 
 
 Dr. Wheatley went on to diphtheria, and he said the anti-toxin 
 was very successful if it was injected before the attack 
 (Laughter). That was one of the most remarkable statements I 
 ever heard m my life. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) 
 
 Dr. Wheatley : I mean in the prevention of diphtheria it is 
 extremely successful if injected before the attack. If a case of 
 diphtheria breaks out and you inject it into the rest of the 
 family it prevents it occurring. (Applause.) This distortion of 
 statements is extremely unfair. (Hear, hear, and applause.) 
 
 Dr. Hadwen (to the Chairman) : Take the time, please sir. 
 because I am having my time wasted by these gentlemen in front, 
 (Continuing). Dr. Wheatley says it prevents the disease in the 
 members of the family who are going to have an attack. How 
 does he know they are going to have it? (Laughter and loud 
 applause). 
 
 Dr. Wheatley : Do you wish me to answer that ? 
 
 Dr. Hadwen : That is the sort of logic we anti-vivisectors 
 have to fight. (" Nonsense.") I guarantee if I were to take 
 scrapings of the throats here to-night I should be perfectly 
 justified in certifying many of you as suffering from diphtheria 
 to the Medical Officer of Health. ("No." I say yes, and I 
 
(21) 
 
 have proved it. These gentlemen seem to talk as if they had all 
 the experience in the world. I am a medical man as well as 
 they. (Hear, hear, and applause.) I have had probably as much 
 experience in diphtheria as any man in this hall, and I know 
 what I am talking about. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 DIPHTHERIA AND SMALL-POX. 
 
 Now the whole of this antitoxin treatment is based upon the 
 germ theory of disease, and the germ theory in turn rests upon 
 the postulates of Koch, viz.: That the supposed specific germ 
 must always be found in association with the specific disease ; 
 that it must never be found apart from the disease, and that 
 when injected into the body of an animal it must produce a disease 
 of the same specific type. Now in the case of the alleged germ 
 of diphtheria, everyone or Koch's postulates is falsified. Con- 
 sequently, the antitoxin treatment has no scientific basis what- 
 ever to rest upon. Probably twenty or thirty per cent, of those 
 in front of me to-night have the diphtheria bacillus in their 
 throats at the present moment. (Laughter.) 
 
 Then, again, let us turn to the evidence of the Metropolitan 
 Asylums Board, and let us see what they have to say about the 
 subject. Only last January they published their statistics, and we 
 read that in the Brook Hospital they had 494 cases ; 359 were 
 treated with antitoxin, of which 41 died — fatality 1 1 '42. There 
 were 135 cases not treated with antitoxin, and all of them 
 recovered, but one, who died one minute after admission to the 
 Receiving Room. (" Quite Right.") What about anti-toxin there? 
 (Laughter, and hear, hear.) Furthermore, Prof. Woodhead 
 acknowledged before the Royal Commission that if the bacillus 
 is found, the injection of anti-toxin follows, without waiting for 
 the false membrane. That is, with every common sore throat, if 
 only they find the Klebs Loffier bacillus there, they at once inject 
 anti-toxin, and if the patient recovers, as our grandmothers 
 would have caused them to recover within 48 hours, then it is 
 glory be to anti-toxin. We have had thousands upon thousands 
 of sore throats in the present day magnified into " diphtheria," 
 and the attributes of anti-toxin have been magnified accord- 
 ingly. (Hear, hear.) For ten years before anti-toxin the 
 death-rate per million from diphtheria was 200 ; the death-rate 
 per million for the ten years since increased to 235. Instead of 
 decreasing diphtheria, anti-toxin has increased it. In the Park 
 Hospital the doctors declared the death-rate was lower than ever 
 before, and that " it was to be attributed to the fact that so many 
 had bacteriological as distinguished from clinical diphtheria" : in 
 other words, a large number of sore throats had been thrown into 
 the count. They had a larger recovery, but the cases of genuine 
 
(22) 
 
 diphtheria died off just the same. " There is nothing so fallacious 
 as statistics, unless it be facts!" (Cheers.) 
 
 As to small-pox, I can't go into that subject now on account 
 of time, except to say that probably I have seen more small-pox 
 and have visited more small-pox hospitals than any man in this 
 room — (laughter and applause) — and perhaps more than all the 
 medical men here put together. I have never taken small-pox 
 yet, and I have never been vaccinated. (Hear, hear, and loud 
 applause.) 
 
 MR. PAGET'S SECOND SPEECH. 
 
 Mr. Paget, in closing, said : What is the good of ten 
 minutes ? How :can you answer a man who comes down here 
 prepared to call every member of his profession stupid? He 
 has said all this before : I have it here in the Press Cutting 
 book. He goes and tells it to any towns he thinks will swallow 
 it. I suppose he attributes a certain amount of importance to 
 it, but doctors do not. (Hear, hear.) His talk about anti-toxin 
 and diphtheria : compare that with the experience of older 
 physicians and surgeons who have seen the children die like flies 
 before anti-toxin was discovered. (Hear, hear.) Take what 
 happened to the King's sister — the Princess Alice and her 
 children. That could not happen now to children of the poorest 
 pauper in the slum ; they would be better protected. (Hear, 
 hear.) Take the anti-toxin in use in the Metropolitan Boards' 
 area. They served a population of 6,600,000 people, which gives 
 75 per cent, of the infectious fever cases. Do you think the men 
 there are fools, the men who year in and year out see the cases 
 and treat them, and have done it since anti-toxin was invented 
 in 1894 ? It has been in use 14 years, the cases being treated 
 with it are numbered by hundreds of thousands. All over the 
 world the thing is being tried ! Will Dr. Hadwen say the whole 
 world is a fool ? (Laughter, and hear, hear.) That is what it 
 comes to. If he denies that still, and we have to argue with 
 him, ask him how is it that the mortality falls not only in the 
 lighter cases, but in the dreadful cases of laryngeal diphtheria, 
 where the larynx is involved, in which case you have to do 
 tracheotomy ? I say the mortality from these cases was 75 or 
 80 per cent, before the days of anti-toxin. (Hear, hear.) He 
 cannot get out of it — he has got to say something to you and he 
 raves. (Laughter.) 
 
 He can tell you all sorts of wonderful stories, but no one 
 will be able to answer him now ; he has got the last word to- 
 night. (Hear, hear.) He will leave you — he will leave behind 
 him that little shop on Pride Hill, that little shop which for 
 many weeks has been disgusting and shocking all Shrewsbury. 
 
(23) 
 
 (Laughter, and Nurse Cross : " A fortnight.") I am thankful to 
 hear it is not more — with its lurid sensational pictures and its 
 false literature. You will have to alter the name of Pride Hill 
 and call it " Disgrace Hill," " Shame Hill," " Hill of Falsehood," 
 " Hill of Lies." There is no other word for this anti-vivisection 
 literature. I have studied it for 20 years, and it is chock full of 
 lies. (A voice : Will you argue the points, sir? and applause.) 
 
 MYXCEDEMA AND MALTA FEVER. 
 
 I will take two diseases — myxcedema and Malta fever : 
 Myxcedema was discovered after many years' work. The work 
 was taken up by the London Clinical Society's Committee, and 
 then was discovered the use of thyroid extract. Now people are 
 cured by the thousand. The men and women who are 
 myxcedemic are slow, dull, cold, apathetic ; they lose their 
 memory, they lose their hearing, they get tired of their lives. 
 They are cured by thyroid extract. He says it is not thyroid — 
 it is the iodine. Well the Royal Society went into that, and they 
 did not mention iodine. Thyroiodine is something some German 
 invented many years after the other work had been done. There 
 is no answer. The people were cured, and they were not cured 
 until the mixture was introduced into apes. (Hear, hear, and 
 applause.) 
 
 Take Malta Fever. It had been studied for years un- 
 successfully, and was the pest of the garrison. The discovery 
 of the germ of Malta Fever was worked out absolutely by the 
 inoculation of monkeys. Dr. Hadwen will deny that : he will 
 say that Sir David Bruce, who did it, is a fool. (Dr. Hadwen : No.) 
 Then you will say it was because they drained the harbour, and 
 if you say that how will you explain that it was prevalent all 
 over the place and not only around the harbour ? How do you 
 explain the fact that when they were studying the disease at 
 Netley and a man scratched his finger with a needle with which 
 he was going to inject a horse he cured himself by taking some 
 serum from the horse ? Can Dr. Hadwen account for that ? He 
 says germs do not cause the disease : if he believes that why 
 does he not submit to inoculation ? He can have his choice — 
 anthrax, tetanus, or anything else. (Laughter and applause.) 
 He says the germs don't cause the disease, that they look in 
 somehow afterwards, just to see what is going on. He will not 
 believe that germs cause these diseases. Well, if a man does not 
 believe that — when he says, " I challenge you to prove that the 
 earth is not flat, or to prove that two and two don't make five," 
 which way is he to look ? No wonder he thinks doctors fools. 
 He has taken up a position absolutely unheard of. I believe 
 they did take up one man who said the same thing before the 
 
(24) 
 
 Royal Commission — that makes two. I challenge Dr. Hadwen 
 to give us the names of ten doctors out of 30,000 who believe for 
 one moment, or could ever dream, even in a nightmare, of taking 
 the same view as he does of disease. (Laughter.) It is not 
 possible. (Hear, hear, and applause.) But he comes down here 
 — he did not know the doctors were coming here. He thought 
 he would get an ignorant audience and give them a nice address ; 
 he thought he would have it all his own way. (A voice : " He 
 is not far off now." Laughter and applause.) He may have his 
 own way to-night, but to-night is not the last word spoken on 
 this matter ; it is not the last word you will hear. You will hear 
 more of this. (Applause.) 
 
 AN AMUSING EPISODE. 
 
 [At this point Nurse Cross, Organizer of the British Union, 
 walked up the Hall and seated herself in a vacant chair on the 
 front row in front of Dr. Urwick, and as soon as the cheering of 
 the doctors had subsided, the following dialogue took place]. 
 
 Nurse : " Mr. Paget, may I ask you a question ? " 
 
 Mr. Paget : " Eh, what is it ? " 
 
 Nurse : " May I ask you a question ? " 
 
 Mr. Paget : " Yes, what is it? " 
 
 Nurse : " Why have you come to Shrewsbury to-night, see- 
 ing that you have refused every challenge which Dr. Hadwen 
 has offered you to debate with him in London and elsewhere ? " 
 
 Mr. Paget : " I really don't understand you." 
 
 Nurse : Then I will repeat my question." (The question 
 was here repeated.) 
 
 Mr. Paget : " I suppose you mean, why has my Society — the 
 Research Defence Society, of which I am Hon. Secretary — 
 refused to accept any challenges from anti-vivisection societies ? " 
 
 Nurse : " No, I don't. I mean what I say." (The question 
 was again repeated.) 
 
 Mr. Paget : " Well, my Society—" 
 
 Nurse : " No, I don't mean your Society, I mean you " — 
 (after a pause) — '" y-o-u — you ! " (Cheers, and laughter.) 
 
 Nurse : " Is it not a fact, Mr. Paget, that you would not have 
 dared to face Dr. Hadwen to-night, had your father-in-law not 
 been a resident here and had you not been promised the support 
 of all the doctors in the town ? " 
 
 [No answer.] 
 
 Nurse : " It is no use beating about the bush. You were 
 informed all about it. Dr. Urwick told me last night that all the 
 doctors in the town had arranged to come, and bring their wives 
 and children and servants, and here they are, and I say it is a 
 most unfair proceeding." 
 
(25) 
 
 [Mr. Paget flung down his papers excitedly and resumed his 
 seat] 
 
 Dr. Urwick (to Nurse Cross) : " This is scandalous. You 
 have broken faith with me." 
 
 Nurse : " I have not. You asked me to say nothing about 
 the Research Defence Society, nor have I done so. Mr. Paget 
 did it himself." (Laughter and applause.) 
 
 DR. HADWEN'S FINAL REPLY. 
 
 Dr. Hadwen was received with rounds of applause. He 
 said : I consider the Nurse's question was perfectly justified. 
 Mr. Paget says in very blatant tones " You will hear more of 
 this." How are we going to hear more of this : will he be pre- 
 pared to come and properly debate these questions with me, or 
 will he not ? (Hear, hear, and applause.) I have challenged 
 Mr. Paget again and again to meet me on equal terms upon a 
 public platform, and he has always refused to do so except on 
 two occasions. The first occasion was at the British Institute of 
 Medicine. He put Prof. Starling in first with a 45 minutes' 
 speech. Mr. Paget followed with another 15 minutes. Prof. 
 Starling wound up with 35 minutes, and they gave me 15 
 minutes in between. (Laughter.) Down at Torquay a 
 month ago I challenged him to meet me on equal terms. 
 He refused. He had a meeting of his own next day — a ticket 
 meeting. It was advertised that they were going to meet the 
 arguments of the anti-vivisectionists — behind my back. We 
 asked to be allowed to go there and meet them. They said yes, 
 they would arrange a debate. How was it arranged? Mr. 
 Paget spoke for 45 minutes to start with, then a debate was 
 allowed for half-an-hour by six persons, three on each side, with 
 five minutes each. Then Mr. Paget was to have an unlimited 
 period to answer, and I received a letter to say that if Dr. 
 Hadwen liked to be one of the three to have five minutes in that 
 debate he could do so, but on no condition was his time limit to 
 be allowed to be exceeded. (Laughter.) That is the kind of 
 thing he calls fair play. (Shame.) 
 
 We have had this debate to-night, and I ask you, has a single 
 one of my arguments been met ? (" No " from the public, and 
 " Yes " from the doctors.) He has referred to our headquarters 
 shop on Pride Hill — the lurid, sensational pictures in the win- 
 dows. Let me tell you every one of the pictures has been 
 taken from the vivisectors' own books and drawn by the 
 vivisectors' own hands, and if they are sensational and 
 lurid, and if they are a disgrace to Shrewsbury, then they 
 must be a disgrace to the vivisectors themselves. (Hear, 
 hear, and loud applause.) He says our writings are chock full 
 
(26) 
 
 of lies. (Mr. Paget : So thev are,) Let him prove a single one 
 of our statements to be such as he describes them. He has not 
 done so yet. (Hear, hear, and applause.) 
 
 He has given two illustrations. Myxcedema is simply 
 this : that where the thyroid gland is removed patients 
 get into what Sir William Gull called a cretinoid state. 
 As far back as in 1877 there were 18 cases of patients who 
 had their thyroid glands removed in Berne Hospital, and it 
 was found that they degenerated into a cretinoid condition, 
 that is, it resulted in myxcedema, and if that was proved as 
 far back as 1877, I want to know what they wanted to torture 
 a lot of monkeys for in 1884 to find out the same thing. 
 (Hear, hear.) If it was shown that with the thyroid gland you 
 don't get myxcedema, but without the thyroid gland you do get 
 myxcedema, why, bless me, it is plain enough without perpetra- 
 ting cruel experiments upon the most sensitive of the lower 
 animals. And if it was shown that by giving the thyroid gland 
 you improve the patient, why should you not give it ? There 
 is no torture in that. They take the thyroid gland as a by- 
 product from the butcher's shop, and there is no cruelty to 
 animals in that as long as sheep are killed for food. 
 Mr. Paget has declared that I will say " iodine " answers the 
 same purpose, and I do say so. (Laughter and applause.) 
 Prof. Baumann has isolated the active principle of the gland, 
 and has found that it is simply iodine in an organic specific 
 combination ; and let me tell you iodine was given for myxce- 
 dema 20 years before Sir Victor Horsley performed the cruel 
 experiments Mr. Paget has referred to to-night. Hence he has 
 discovered nothing. (Appause.) 
 
 MALTA FEVER. 
 
 Then about Malta Fever. That is one of those fairy tales 
 that have come to us from the country far over the sea. 
 (Laughter). I take simply one instance. They inoculated a 
 cultivation of the so-called Malta Fever germs into some goats ; 
 the germs multiplied as might be expected. That proved, said 
 Sir David Bruce, that Malta Fever was produced in those animals 
 because the germs were there. But he goes on to say they had 
 no fever at all ! He says they underwent no change, they ate 
 the same as before and they gave just as much milk. Surely 
 any charity boy would have concluded that if no fever was pro- 
 duced after the inoculation of some millions of germs, that germs 
 could have had nothing to do with producing Malta Fever. And 
 this opinion would be still further established when it was made 
 known that numbers of people had drunk goats milk without 
 contracting the disease. 
 
(27) 
 
 Mr. Paget has referred to the harbour. The harbour has 
 been the despository of sewage for centuries. With better 
 sanitary precautions in the Island of Malta, Malta Fever began 
 to go down at the beginning of 1906, and other fevers which had 
 nothing to do with this germ, declined during the same period 
 showing that there was a common cause which was reducing all 
 the fevers in the island and that that common cause could be 
 nothing else than the better condition of sanitation. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 And this is what I say is one of the most serious matters in 
 connection with vivisection, that it takes the eye off the real 
 remedy for zymotic disease, viz., removing their causes, when the 
 effects will cease. Further let me say I consider it monstrous to 
 suppose that a great and a good and all-powerful God has so 
 arranged the plan of the universe as to make our freedom 
 from disease depend upon the torture of these poor 
 helpless and sensitive creatures who cannot defend themselves 
 against those who are stronger than they. (Hear, hear, and 
 applause). I am here to plead on behalf of those poor creatures 
 that cannot plead for themselves. Those creatures are dependent 
 upon us, we have no right because we are more powerful to adopt 
 the cowardly course of holding a sanguinary inquisition upon the 
 living bodies of fellow creatures as sentient and as sensitive as 
 ourselves 
 
 There were cries of " time " from the medical men present, 
 and Dr. Hadwen sat down amid vociferous cheers. 
 
 Mr. Paget : May I move an amendment ? I think it is very 
 important that we should separate experiments under the Act 
 from other experiments. 
 
 The Chairman : I think it is out of order. 
 
 [A good deal of excitement and confusion occurred when the 
 vote was taken, many of the local doctors standing up in the 
 front row facing the audience, and a large portion of the audience 
 refrained from voting. The Chairman subsequently announced 
 that the resolution was defeated by about 30 votes. 
 
 Dr. Hadwen moved a vote of thanks to the Chairman, and 
 Mr. Roberts, replying, said he did not think they had ever had 
 such an intensely interesting debate in Shrewsbury for at least 14 
 years, and he thought it had been conducted in a very fair way.] 
 
 ?K 
 
J2 
 
 a. 
 
 (§5©^ 
 
 ($;■ ts 
 
The British Union 
 for the Abolition of Vivisection. 
 
 Foundress: FRANCES POWER COBBE. 
 
 Hon. Sec. : Treasurer : 
 
 WALTER R. HADWEN, Esq., M.D. The Rt. Hon. Viscount HARBERTON. 
 
 Secretary: Miss B. E. KIDD. 
 
 Offices: 32 Charing Cross, London, S.W. 
 
 "To those of my readers who may desire to contribute to the 
 Anti= Vivisection Cause, and who have shared my views on it as set 
 forth in my numberless pamphlets and letters, and to those specially 
 who, like myself, intend to bequeath money to carry on the war 
 against scientific cruelty, I now earnestly say as my final counsel : 
 
 "Support the British Union." 
 
 —Autobiography of F. B. COBBE 
 
 In the case of benefactors desiring to bequeath legacies in sup- 
 port of the Cause, they are respectfully urged to clearly state in 
 their Wills, "The British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection," 
 and to make them payable to the Treasurer for the time being." 
 
 Form of Bequest. 
 
 To those who may he inclined to become Benefactors by Will to this Society, 
 the following form is respectfully suggested : — 
 
 _Z~ bequeath unto the Society called The British Union for the Abolition op 
 
 Vivisection, the sum of free of Legacy Duty, 
 
 and I direct that the same shall be paid to the Treasurer for the time being of such last- 
 mentioned Society, exclusively out of such part of my personal estate as may legally be 
 bequeathed for charitable purposes, and in priority to all other payments. 
 
 By virtue of the Act of Victoria, cap. 26, all Wills and Codicils must be in 
 writing, signed by the Testator, and attested by two witnesses in the presence of 
 the Testator and of each other. 
 
 A Donation of Five Pounds and upwards constitutes a Life Member. 
 An Annual Subscription of Ten Shillings constitutes an Annual Member. 
 Remittances by Crossed Cheque or Postal Order. Smaller Donations gratefully 
 accepted. 
 
 An Annual Payment of 2s. 6d. constitutes an Associate of the Union. 
 
SELECTED ANTI=VIVISECTION 
 
 LITERATURE. 
 
 Pamphlets by Dr. HADWEN. 
 
 Some Recent Vivisection Practices in English ^m. 100 
 
 Laboratories - 1/- 7/6 
 
 A Medical View of the Vivisection Question 2/- 12/6 
 Vivisection : Its Follies and Cruelties and 
 
 the Way to Fight it- = - = = 1/- 7/6 
 
 The Antitoxin Treatment of Diphtheria = 1/6 10/- 
 
 Vivisection at the Brown Institution - = 4d 2/3 
 
 The Cult of the Vivisector - - - - 4d. 2/3 
 
 The Humour of the Vivisector = = - 6d. 2/6 
 
 Tuberculosis and Cow's Milk = = =1/- 7/6 
 
 Was Jenner a Charlatan? = - - =1/- 7/6 
 Debate between Dr. Hadwen and Mr. Stephen 
 
 Paget - - = - = = =1/6 10/- 
 
 Debate between Dr. Hadwen & Dr. Eastham 1/- 7/6 
 Correspondence between Dr. Hadwen and 
 
 Sir Victor Horsley =- = = =!/- 7/6 
 
 Views of Men and Women of Note on the 
 
 Vivisection Question = = = == 2/- 12/6 
 
 (Illustrated with Portraits). 
 
 By Miss FRANCES POWER COBBE. 
 
 The Early History of the Anti-Vivisection Movement. 3d. 
 Why We Have Hounded the British Union, od. per doz. 
 Light in Dark Places. Gratis. 
 
 By BEATRICE E. KIDD. 
 
 Why We Object to a Restriction Bill. od. per doz. 5/- 100. 
 Anti= Vivisection Politics. 4d, per doz. 2/3 per 100. 
 Do You Know ? (Illustrated). 4d. per doz. 2/3 per 100. 
 
 By Miss A. F. WH1TELEY. 
 
 Some Medical Views of Vivisection. 3d. each, 2/= doz. 
 
 F. J. BROOKE, Printer and Bookbinder, 2 Westgate Street, Gloucester. 15153