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 https://archive.org/details/debateonconventi1821 nort 
 
/ S3 
 
 ON THE 
 
 CONVENTION QUESTION, 
 
 IN THE 
 
 V 
 
 of ^0mm0m 
 
 OF THE 
 
 LEGISLATURE OF NORTH- CAROLINA j 
 
 Dec. 18 ^ 19 , 1821 . 
 
 TAKEN IN SHORT-HAND BT 
 
 JOSEPH GALES. 
 
 jj. (Ol- iL , 
 
 T!llt ’ 
 
 ItALEIGff: 
 
 PRINTED BT J. GALES & SOR. 
 
 
 182 ». 
 
DEBATE 
 
 03T THE . 
 
 CONVENTION^ QUESTION. 
 
 HOUSE OF COMMONS, 
 
 Bee. 18, 1821. 
 
 The House formed itself into a committee of the whole, Mr. 
 Brickell in the Chair, on the following Resolutions, submitted 
 by Mr. Fisher, from Salisbury, on the 1 1th instant : 
 
 1. Jtesolved hy the General Assembly of JVorth-CaroUiia, That the repre. 
 sentation of the people of this State in both branches of the Leg^islature, 
 under the present Constitution, is greatly unequal, unjust, and anti-republican. 
 
 2. Itesolved, That the Constitution ought to be so amended as that each 
 citizen of the State should have an equal share in the rights of represen- 
 tation upon the principle of free white population and taxation, or of free 
 white population, including three-fifths of all other persons. 
 
 3. Therefore, Resolved, That, at the next Election for Members of the As- 
 sembly, the people of this State, who are entitled to vote for Members of 
 the House of Commons, be invited to vote at the said election, whether they 
 are in favor of a Convention, or not, by writing on their ticket. Convention, 
 or JVo Convention. 
 
 4. Resolved, That the Sheriff of each County in this State, or other re- 
 turning officers, be and they are hereby directed, immediatel}'^ after the next 
 election, to ascertain the number of votes given for or against a Convention, 
 and to make out a correct statement thereof, and transmit the same to the 
 Governor, to be laid before the next Assembly. 
 
 Mr. Fisher said, before be entered upon the subject of 
 the Resolutions, he must express bis thanks for the very cour- 
 teous manner with which the House had thus far treated his 
 proposition. He could not forbear contrasting their conduct 
 on this occasion with that of another body not far off ; and 
 he was proud that the comparison redounds so much to the 
 advantage of this House. When a member, said Mr. F. riseS 
 in his place, and submits a respectful proposition, it is nothing 
 but justice to give him an opportunity of delivering his rea- 
 sons in its favor — it is common courtesy to let him be heard. 
 But for the majority to arrest it at the threshold, and at once 
 put it down, is neither justice nor courtesy.=^ Majorities 
 
 * Mr. F. alluded to the conduct of the Senate. When Mr. Williamson 
 introduced Resolutions similar to those of Mr, F. that body refused to refer 
 them to a committee of the whole House, or even to lay them on the table, 
 but showed a disposition to reject them at once. On the next day, however, 
 they agi'ced to conaider the Resolutions. 
 
4 
 
 should reniemher, that minorities too have rights. And, Sir, 
 when the majority of a deliberative Assembly, in the true 
 spirit of tyranny, prohibits debate, gloomy indeed is the pros- 
 pect of an impartial decision at such a tribunal. In looking 
 in on sucl) a body, we are almost tempted to say, as is said 
 ot Dante’s Hell, “ Hope never enters here.” But, if one 
 brancli of tlie Legislature has shewn us that we have nothing 
 to liope from them, we may rejoice that prospects are more 
 promising here — that in this House, we will at least be de- 
 cently heard. Mr. F. said he regretted the occasion that had 
 called forth these remarks. He would now proceed to the 
 subject before tlie committee. 
 
 Sir, whenever a Convention is talked of, we immediately 
 bear the cry of the sacredness of tlie Constitution — that it is 
 the work of our forefathers, and, therefore, it is next to sacri- 
 lege to touch it. This cant is the chief argument used by 
 many against calling a Convention, and, as there are some 
 well-meaning persons on w hom it has influence, Mr. F. said 
 he would, in the first place, call the attention of gentlemen to 
 the circumstances under which the Constitution was formed, 
 and see if these were the most favorable for the accomplish- 
 ment of a woi'k of such magnitude. He would then proceed 
 to point out some of the defects of the Constitution requiring 
 amendment. 
 
 When we consider the state of things under w hich the Con- 
 stitution was framed, it would be a miracle were it otherwise 
 than defective. The whole continent was full of confusion j 
 in our own State moi-e particularly, the difference of opinion 
 among the people ran high. The majority, it is true, were 
 in favor of the new order of things, but there were many that 
 still adhered to the old ; — and all, from habits, from educa- 
 tion, and early feelings, were strongly attached to the princi- 
 ples of the British Government — they still thought that the 
 British Constitution and forms, were the wisest and the best. 
 Sir, if it w as necessary to stop by the way to prove the exis- 
 tence of these feelings, proofs are abundant. The very Con- 
 gress that framed the Constitution furnish pi-oofs. That 
 body, in the most solemn manner, signed a tc^t in which these 
 attachments wei-e declai-ed. The Congi-ess that met at Hills- 
 borough, only twelve months befoi-e, also furnish proofs : 
 they in like manner signed the test, acknowledging the Bri- 
 tish Constitution and Laws. [Here Mr. F. read several ex- 
 tracts fr-om the .Journals of the Congresses of Hillsborough 
 and Halifax, to shew the feelings that prevailed in those bo- 
 dies, and their high estimation of the forms and laws of the 
 mother country.] But, continued he, besides these feelings^ 
 
5 
 
 atrongly inclining that body to the adoption, in the new Con- 
 stitution, of British and Provincial forms and principles, there 
 were still many other embarrassments that surrounded them. 
 They were engaged in a work to them new ; — new indeed to 
 the world. History furnished no example where any people 
 liad met together, under like circumstances, to frame a govern- 
 ment for themselves. Constitution-making was, as yet, but 
 little known. They were without the light of experience, or 
 the benefit of the examples of the other States ; for, as yet, 
 but few of the States had formed their Constitutions. Under 
 circumstances like these, is at at all surprising that the Con- 
 gress at Halifax should form a Constitution partaking largely 
 of the features and forms of the British institutions ? Indeed, 
 it was their design and policy to do so, in order that it might 
 be the more acceptable to all classes of the people. In an 
 address published by the Congress of Hillsborough, to the 
 British people, we find the following sentiment. “ Whenever- 
 we have departed from the forms of the Constitxition, our own 
 safety and self-preservation have dictated the expedient” 
 
 But there is another fact that must be considered on tin's 
 part of the su ject. ‘Mr. F. said, until within a short time, 
 he had all along entertained the opinion, that the Congress of 
 Halifax had been chosen and convened for theexpi'ess and sole 
 purpose of forming a Constitution. This was far fi*om being 
 the case. Judging from the Journals of that body, the for- 
 mation of a Constitution seems to have been but a minor ob- 
 ject of their attention. The Congress met and proceeded to 
 business. In a few days, a committee was raised for the pur- 
 pose of draughting and reporting a Bill of Rights, and the 
 form of a Constitution. The Congress then resumed its other 
 business, of which it had a vast crowd, such as naturally 
 arose out of the state of the times, and the situation of the 
 country. Thus they went on, until the committee reported 
 the form of a Constitution and Bill of Rights, which were 
 examined, amended, passed at short intervals their several 
 readings, and finally adopted. Judging from the Journals, 
 the whole time bestowed by the Congress on that subject,, 
 could not have equalled more than three or four days, at the 
 most ; and, out of two quires of paper containing the Jour- 
 nal, not more than three pages are taken up with the pro- 
 ceedings on the subject of the Constitution. After the adop- 
 tion of the Constitution, the Congress continued in sessioir 
 for some time, devoting its attention to the many interesting 
 and embarrassing subjects before it: — such as raising troops, 
 providing the ways and means, hearing memorials, and set- 
 tling the inteimal condition of the State. These things, said 
 
 ( 
 
6 
 
 Mr. F. I only mention, to shew the pressing difficulties that 
 engaged the attention of tlie Congress, and how utterly im- 
 possible it was for them to bestow that time and deliberation 
 npon llie formation of the Constitution that its great impor- 
 tance required. Indeed, the examination of the journals con- 
 nected witli the consideration of these circumstances, must 
 satisfy every impartial mind, that the framers of the Consti- 
 tution only intended it as a temporary work — one that the 
 people would examine, alter and amend, when the troubles of 
 war would pass away, and the sunshine of peace be restored. 
 But grant, for a moment, that the Congress of Halifax design- 
 ed this as a permanent Constitution, then we must recur to 
 still other circumstances to shew how next to impossible it 
 was for them to form a Constitution that would suit the future 
 condition of tlic State. The same feelings that now are call- 
 ed Eastern and Western, then, and long before, existed in the 
 Province of North-Carolina. If they existed among the peo- 
 ple, it is reasonable to presume that they w'ere not absent from 
 the Congress of Halifax. Indeed the journals of that body 
 furnish j)roofs of the fact. In the several Congresses before 
 that of Halifax, the votes were always taken by “Counties 
 and Towns.” In that of Halifax, a proposition was made to 
 change the mode so as that each individual member should 
 have one vote. For this jsroposition every Westei-n County 
 voted — Against it, none but the smallest counties in the East 
 voted. In the Congress that adopted the Constitution, 36 
 counties were represented ; of tlicsc, only ten were Western : 
 All that wide range of countiy lying west of Raleigh, was 
 then divided only into ten counties. That body being thus com- 
 posed, suppose that an elfort had been made to fix the princi- 
 ples of rej)rcsentation on othei* basis than the present, what 
 would have been the result? The same feeling that will in- 
 fluence members on these resolutions would have put it down ; 
 the vote, in all probability, would have been 26 against 10. 
 
 These, Sir, said Mr. F. were the circumstances under which 
 our State Government was formed ; and this accounts for 
 Ihc features of aristocracy that appear throughout the Con- 
 stilulion. In fact, few indeed were the alterations that the 
 Constitution made in the then existing laws and polity of the 
 Province : even the names were retained. The judicial de- 
 paitnient was but little altered: — and the Legislature not 
 much moi-e, except that instead of the House of Burgesses,’” 
 the popular brand! is called “ llte House of Commons,” a 
 name as aj)propriate lor this branch, as the House of Lords 
 would be for the Senate. The GeneralJissembhj was the term 
 by which the Legislalure was called under the Provincial 
 
7 
 
 Government, and it is retained in the Constitution. The 
 qualification of fifty acres of land, and the representation by 
 counties, were taken from the laws of the Province. In short. 
 Sir, the Provincial laws and customs were the materials out 
 of which the Constitution was built, and the Constitution is 
 but little more than a compilation from these materials. And 
 this is the monument of wisdom that we are told it is sacri- 
 lege to touch ! Sir, it is right to reverence the work of our 
 forefathers, but its being their w ork does not make it perfect : 
 like ourselves, they were erring men ; nor do I Isold with the 
 maxim of the “ Holy Alliance,” that “ whatever is ancient^ 
 is good.’* Even admitting that the Constitution was the best 
 for the times in which it was made, sure its framers w'ere not 
 political prophets to foresee that it could suit equally well the 
 conditions of future generations. 
 
 The old Congress, said Mr. F. that framed the articles of 
 Confederation, the first American Government, was a body 
 of men never surpassed for warmth of patriotism, clearness 
 of intelligence, and force of sagacity ; and yet. Sir, these men, 
 with all their wisdom and foresight, formed a government 
 that in a few years began to tumble to pieces : — to save our 
 infant republic, a new Convention was called, and a new 
 Constitution was adopted. How is it then, that the sages of 
 the old Congress failed in their first government, and that 
 the Congress of Halifax, should, at once have reached tlie 
 point of perfection ! It is not so ; — our Constitution is full of 
 defects ,• and I will now proceed to point out some of them. 
 
 To dwell upon all the defects of the Constitution, said Mr. 
 F. w ould require more time, than he could at present command. 
 He would, therefore, only take up a part, and leave a wild 
 field for his friends to occupy. 
 
 Of all the objectionable parts of our Constitutioii, the system 
 of representation is the most unjust and oppressive. Upon 
 this, said he, I shall confine my remarks ; and for the sake 
 of being better understood, I* hall consider, 1st. The repre- 
 sentation of the people. 2dly. The representation of proper- 
 ty ; for the theory of the Constitution seems to be, the repre- 
 sentation of the people in one branch of the Legislature, and 
 of property in tlie other. 
 
 1st. Then as to the representation of the people. And here 
 be it said, that in practice, the people are not i-epresented at 
 all. It is not the people, in the true meaning, it is the counties, 
 that are represented. If the people were represented, num- 
 bers w'ould form th e basis of the system. The counties are 
 as much represented in this House as the States are in the 
 Senate of the LT. States ; but not upon the same principles. 
 
8 
 
 01 ’ with tlicsamc propriety. The States are distinct sover'eigti-' 
 tics, and it is by coin|)i’omise that they all have an equal weight 
 in tlie Senate of the Federal Legislature ; not so as regards the 
 counties. There is not a greater disparity between the popu- 
 lation of Rhode Island and New'-York, than there is between 
 Columbus .and Row'an ; and yet, in that branch of the Fede- 
 ral Legislature where the people are represented, Rhode 
 Island has only two members, \ijiile New-York has twenty- 
 seven : but here in both the Senate and Commons, Columbus 
 has as many members as Rowan — so that it is not the peo- 
 ple, as a relative part of the whole, but the counties, as a kind 
 of separate governments, that are represented. The original 
 of this feature in the Constitution will be seen, when it is re- 
 membered that counties in the first settlement of the province, 
 were separate and distinct governments — we have altered the 
 theory, but retained the practice. This then is a relic from 
 the old colonial system ; but, Sii’, come from where it may, it 
 is a system under the operation of which, our State govern- 
 ment has ceased to be a Republic, and become a complete and 
 perfect aristocracy. What is an aristocracy, but where the 
 few goxern the many ? Is it not essential in a Republic that 
 all the citizens of the same grade of qualifications should have 
 an equal participation in the rights and privileges of the go- 
 vernment ? — and that a majority shall rule ? No government 
 where these principles are absent, can merit the name of a 
 Republican government ; and. Sir, it will not be difficult to 
 prove that this is the case under our Constitution. To show 
 that it is, said Mr. F. I ask your attention to a few calcula- 
 tions bottomed on the last Census, and on the revenue laws of 
 the State. Let me here premise, that in all calculations made 
 on population, the free population alone is taken ; for that is 
 the only population entitled to representation under the Con- 
 stitution ; and, when gentlemen are contending for the per- 
 fection of that instrument, the^ surely will not wish to as- 
 sume data not recognised by it. Slaves are not felt in our 
 Legislature, either as population or as property ; and where 
 calculations are made to shew the operation of the system, wc 
 must confine ourselves to the provisions of that system. Mr. 
 F. said he made these remarks, because some gentlemen may 
 wish to assume the federal numbers as the data of calculations 
 — an assumption which he could not admit. 
 
 View I. The State is divided into 62 counties, of very 
 unequal extent and population, — yet each sending to the Le- 
 gislature the same number of membei’s — making in all 193, 
 including tlie borough representation. The free population 
 of the State is 433,912 souls, which, divided by the number 
 
9 
 
 of members in the Legislature, gives to each member 2248 
 souls : or, in other words, every 2248 souls, upon princi- 
 ples of equality, would be entitled to one representative. 
 Take this then as the ratio of one member, and Imvv will the 
 result appear ? — Why! The counties of Washington, Jones, 
 Greene, Chowan, Columbus and Brunswick, each would be 
 entitled to one member, while, upon the same calculation. 
 Rowan would obtain 9, and Orange 7 members. But take 
 the free population of Greene or SVashington, as the ratio 
 that shall send 3 members ; and, then, each of the little coun- 
 ties just named, will retain their 3 members, while Rowan 
 will send 27, Orange 22, and the other large counties in due 
 proportion. 
 
 View II. To the six counties just named, add Tyrrel, 
 Martin, Lenoir, Hyde, Gates and Carteret, making twelve 
 counties. These twelve counties contain a population of 
 38,037 souls, while Rowan and Orange contain 37,967, near- 
 ly the same amount ; but these twelve counties send 36 mem- 
 bers, and Rowan and Orange only 6, exclusive of the borough 
 representation. 
 
 View III. We have seen that twelve small counties con- 
 tain 38,037 souls ; contrast this with the population of twelve 
 large counties, viz ; Rowan, Orange, Lincoln, Guilfoi*d, 
 Mecklenburg, Stokes, Rutherford, Burke, Iredell, Randolph, 
 Surry and Wake, with a population of 156,726. Thus 38,037 
 souls in certain small counties, send as tnany members to the 
 Legislature as 1 56,726 souls, existing in a like number of 
 large counties — the twelve large counties contain 118,689 
 souls more than the twelve smaller ones. 
 
 View IV. The counties of Washington, Jones, Greene, 
 Chowan, Brunswick, Columbus, Tyrrel, Martin, Lenoir, 
 Hyde, Gates, Carteret, Ashe, Beaufort, Bladen, Bertie, Cam- 
 den, Currituck, Franklin, Hertford, Haywood, Moore, North- 
 ampton, Nash, New-Hanover, Onslow, Pitt, Pasquotank, 
 Perquimons, Warren, Wayne, Person and Richmond, in 
 number 33, contain 144,928 souls, just about one-third of the 
 free population of the State ; yet they send 99 members, whiclr 
 is a majority of the whole Legislature ! Does it not plainly 
 appear, from this view of the subject, that one-third of the po- 
 pulation of the State completely govern and control the other 
 two-thirds? What is this but aristocracy ? The few govern- 
 ing tlie many : one third controling two-thirds — making all 
 the laws — a])pointing all the officer's, judicial, executive and 
 military ? Again : the eleven large counties (omitting Wake) 
 enumerated in view 3d, also contain about one-third of the 
 free population of the State, viz. 144,041 souls : but these are 
 
 n 
 
10 
 
 ciiiilloci onij to 33 inombers, or G6 loss lliiiii what tlic sanie 
 aiummt of|)opiilation, iii another part of the State, is entitled to. 
 
 Is this, said Mr. F. justice, or is it j-epuhlicanisin ? Is this 
 .a;i\ in:; to the citizens of different sections of the State an 
 equal particii)ation in the rights and privileges of the goveni“ 
 nicnt ? Surely not. But perhaps this system has its jjallia- 
 tives ! Since wc have not an equal voice in making the raw-s 
 atid appointing the oUicers for their execution, perhaps, hy 
 Avay of atonement, w^e are exempted from hearing an equal 
 share of the hurdens of the State ? No, sir, we pay our full 
 shai’e of the taxes, and, in times of danger, w'e furnish our full 
 quota for the public defence.. Yes, we arc taxed hy popula- 
 tion — hut we ai’e represented by Counties. What would gen- 
 tlemen say, were wc to propose as a law, that each county in 
 the State should pay the same amount of Taxes into the Trea- 
 siny, and in times of war, that each county should furnish 
 the same number of men for defence ? We would soon be 
 stunned hy the cries of injustice ! injustice! And, sir, wdierc 
 would there be any thing more unjust or oppressive in this, 
 than that each county should have the same share in making 
 the law s ! But let us see the projjortion of taxes paid hy some 
 of the counties, in comparison with t!)at paid by othei-s. The 
 counties of Columbus, Carteret, Currituck, Ashe, Tyrrel, 
 Wasliington, Haywood, Hyde, Brunswick and Moore, ten in 
 luimher, in the year 1819, from all the sources of taxation, as 
 returned by the Sheriffs, paid into the Treasury S4,195 85 : 
 while Rowan and Orange themselves paid within a fraction 
 of §5,000. But nothing more strikingly exposes the injustice 
 of our system of representation, than the fact, that there are 
 a number of small counties that do not furnish taxes enough 
 to pay the wages of their ow n members. 
 
 The counties of Currituck, Columbus, Carteret, Ashe, Tyr- 
 vel, Hyde and Haywood, in the year 1819, paid into the Trea- 
 suiy §2,607, and for the same year their members drew out 
 §3,441, or §834 more than was paid into the Treasury. 
 
 Again : for the year 1820, 
 
 Hvde 
 
 Taxes paid into the Treasury. 
 fi40T 24 
 
 Pav draivti out by Members. 
 $466 90 
 
 Tvn'el 
 
 '384 29 
 
 435 40 
 
 Ha^ wood 
 
 245 87 
 
 530 
 
 Cavtevet 
 
 406 09 
 
 449 80 
 
 Columbus 
 
 345 55 
 
 383 20 
 
 CuiTituck 
 
 460 62 
 
 468 
 
 Aslie 
 
 259 77 
 
 472 80 
 
 
 $2,509 43 
 
 $3,206 10 
 
 From this sum of §2,509 43 deduct §168 50 repaid to 
 the Sheriffs of those Counties for mileage in attending to make 
 
41 
 
 settlement, and you have the sum of §2,340 93 as the amounl 
 paid into the Ti easury for that year ; while tlieir members 
 drew out the sum of §3,206 10, or §865 17, exceed! g the 
 amount of their taxes. The proportion of each county, the 
 expenses of the judicial and executive branches of the govern- 
 ment, is about §4 65 annually ; which added to the §865 17 
 makes these seven counties an annual expense to the State of 
 §4,120 over and above their taxes. At this rate, from the 
 taking of the census in 1820 to 1830, when another enumera- 
 tion will take place, they will have cost the Treasury beyond 
 their taxes, the sum of §41,000, a sum not very far short of 
 the whole amount of the taxes of the last year on lands and 
 slaves. Now, sir, is there any thing just or equitable in a 
 system that operates in this manner ? Is it not enough that 
 we must permit these small counties to equal powers with the 
 larger ones — Must we actually pay them for making laws 
 for us ? 
 
 I shall, now, said Mr. F. leave this part of the subject, and 
 proceed to the next branch of it — therepreseniation of property. 
 It is a principle now universally acknowledged, that property 
 ought to be felt in the councils of the government : not to have 
 a predominating influence, but a proportionate weight. One 
 of the great objects in establishing government is for the pro- 
 tection of property, and nine-tenths of all the taxes that sup- 
 port government, are raised directly or indirectly fropi pro- 
 perty. It is, then, nothing more than justice and good policy 
 that property should liave something like a relative represen- 
 tation in the councils of the State. Is this the case undci* our 
 Constitution ? Is the w eight of property gi’aduatcd ami repre- 
 sented as it ought to be ? Certainly not. One species of pro- 
 peidy only is represented, viz. land ; and the land-holders 
 have just double the weight in the Legislature, that popula- 
 tion and every species of ])roperty jnit togetlicr, have. And to 
 make the system still worse, even land is very unequally and 
 unfaii-ly represented : 1st, as to ^ aluo. The lands of Gates, 
 Columbus, Lenoir, Ashe, Haywood, Perquimons, Pasquo- 
 tank and Tyrrel, containg 1,300,000 acres of land, in 1815 
 were valued at §1,741.810. But the lands of Rowan alone 
 were valued at §1,870,142, and Halikix at §2,802,513 : And 
 yet each of these jioor counties have as nmch w eight in the 
 Senate as Rowan or Halifax. 2dly, as to extent. Row an lias 
 a greater extent of territory than somefour or five of the little 
 counties just named — but she has no more influence in the Se- 
 nate than either of them. Can tliere be any thing more unjust, 
 than that the holder of fifty acres of the barren sand banks of 
 Currituck, or the rocks of Hay W'ood, n«it worth one cent pet’ 
 
12 
 
 aci’e, should be entitled to vote for a Senator, wliile the saiuc 
 pi'i\ile,{;e Is denied to him that owns forty-nine acres of the. 
 rich bottom of the Roanoke wortli g50 per acre ! How, sir, 
 could this sti'ange and unequitable provision have got into 
 the Constitution ? Hike all the rest — a mere copy from tlie 
 colonial government. Under that government, fifty acres of 
 land was a qualification to vote for a Member of the House 
 of Burgesses. By the act of 1764, which established by law 
 the Cluircli of England in the Province, fifty acres of land 
 entitled a person to vote for Vestrymen; and by an act of 
 1723, only freeholders of fifty acres of land were permitted to 
 keep a liorse of a certain description. In fact, this freehold 
 of fifty acres, seems to have been the general qualifier for all 
 officers among the provincial law-givers ; and perhaps for 
 this rea^^on it was carried into tlie Constitution. Thus land 
 weighs down population, and all other kinds of property put 
 together, while slaves, our next valuable species of property, 
 is neither felt in the Legislature as property, nor as population. 
 
 Sir. said Mr. F. have I succeeded in siiewing that there 
 are defects in our Con.stitution, that ought to be amended ? 
 If so, why not do it now? Can there ever be a season more 
 favorable for such a work than the present ? We are at peace 
 with oursehes, and the world ; — no violent factions now har- 
 rass and vex the passions of the people ; — the public mind is 
 at rest, save on this one subject ; — feelings of harmony and 
 liberality reign throughout the land. It is a time, indeed, 
 that invites to a review’ of our political institutions. It would 
 seem as if the genius of our Republic had lulled to repose the 
 hydra of faction, on purpose to give her favorite people an 
 opportunity to jierfect their sy.stem of government; and, ac- 
 cordingly, w e see our sister States availing themselves of the 
 happy season. Massachusetts, that framed her government 
 under more favorable circumstances than we did, has, never- 
 theless, revised her Constitution. Maine, her eldest daugh- 
 ter, has erected a new one. Connecticut, the land qf steady 
 habits, the people that are fond of ancient things and preju- 
 dices, has re-modelled her government, and made it more 
 republican. The great State of New-York has just completed 
 the important work, and giv’en to the people a new and a bet- 
 ter Con.stitution. Besides these, all the other old States have 
 made important changes in their Constitutions, and all the 
 new States have held Conventions and framed governments. 
 What does all this pi’ove ? That the people of the other States 
 do not consider theii’ Constitutions perfect ! How^, then, does 
 it happen that ours alone should require no amendment ? 
 \nd. Sir, after all, what is it wc ask of you ? Not to lay 
 
13 
 
 violent hands on the Constitution, tear it to pieces, and scat^ 
 ter it to the winds of Heaven ! No ! only to put the question 
 to the penjjle. Will you, or will you not, have a Convention 
 to revise the Constitution ? Even if you doubt the propriety 
 of altering the Constitution, surely you will not withhold the 
 question from the )>eoj)le. If a majority of the people are 
 opposed to the calling of a Convention, we will at once sub- 
 mit without a murmur : — If a majority are in favor of the 
 measure, then, surely, there is Jiot a man on this floor, so un- 
 just and anti-republican, as to pi event it, even if he could. 
 Then let the question go to the ])eopie — to the source of aU 
 political powei-, and whatever they determine, let us, like 
 good republicans, submit to. What is it that our Eastern 
 brethren fear from a Convention ? Are they afraid to trust 
 the people with their own rights ? Are the people of North- 
 Carolina less enlightened, less virtuous, than those of the 
 other States ? Are they less enlightened and less virtuous 
 now, than they were forty-six yeai-s ago ? Say not so ! — It 
 is a libel on the State! — on the march of the human mind! 
 
 But, gentlemen apprehend, if a Convention is called, that 
 the power will fall into the hands of the people, and that a 
 majority of them live in the West. Admit it, and what then ? 
 Ought the power not to rest with the people ? And wdiat 
 have you to fear from the people of the West ? Are our in- 
 terests not the same ? Are we not the same people ? Are 
 we not brothers ? Can we in the West, adopt any measure, 
 or pass any law, that will injure you, w ithout, at the same 
 time, injuring ourselves ? Surely not ! No ; we expect no- 
 thing from a Convention hut justice, but equal rights in com- 
 mon w ith tlie people in every other section of the State ! 
 These, Sir, are our claims, and are they not just, and reason- 
 able ? We appeal to your magnanimity and republicanism. 
 The rights that we claim, were w on by the joint exertions of 
 our forefathers. Your fathers and our fathers mingled their 
 hlood in the same' holy cause : they w'on the boon together. 
 Why, then, will you, in dividing, claim the greater half? 
 Where is that lo\ e of justice, and of right, that fii’od the bo- 
 soms of our JS''ashes, Davidsons, and Moores, and their gene- 
 rous compatriots ? — Has it fled forever ? Say not so. May 
 it return and inspii-e our Eastern brethren with the ijifluence 
 of that sacred maxim, of doing unto others as you would w ish 
 others to do unto you. It is all we ask ; give us but an equal 
 participation with youi’selves in the rights of the government, 
 and we ask no more — this we ought to have, this we must 
 have, and, without the smallest intention to menace, I may 
 add, — this we roill have. 
 
Mi;. Alston saiil, as no otlici* gentlenuin seemed disposed, 
 at this time, to ocrupy tlie floor, he hejs^ged leave to submit a 
 few remarks for the consideration of the committee upon tliis 
 all-important question. He said he had listened with atten- 
 tion to the observations of the gentleman from Salisbury; but 
 liad not heard him state any grievance which any portion of 
 the citizens of the State experience under our present Con- 
 stitution. Ail that the gentleman complained of, is inequality 
 of representation. But he did not state that any thing like 
 oppression was felt in any quarter of the State on this account. 
 Nor w'as it likely that any real ground of com])laint on this 
 head ivould ever exist ; as the large and small counties were 
 so situated in relation to each othei-, as to possess an unity of 
 feeling with each other — their wishes were the same (-n most 
 subjects which come before the Legislature. For instance. 
 Rowan and Orange arc large counties; but they have Iredell 
 and Person adjoining to them, which are small ones ; and 
 so it is throughout the State ; wherever there is a large 
 county, there is a small one near it, wdiosc interests are the 
 same. So that notliing like oppression could be apprehended 
 under the present system. Wliy, then, asked Mr. A. call a 
 Convention, and by doing so convulse the State from one ex- 
 tremity to the other ? 
 
 Connecticut, it was said, had amended her Constitution, 
 and why not w'e do the same ? But what was the situation of 
 things there? Was it a mere inequality of representation 
 that was complained of ? No, it was a contest between 
 Church and State ; and the Church had been forced to the wall. 
 
 The State of New-York, who has lately revised her Con- 
 stitution, had also been referred to. There w'as thei-e to com- 
 plain of, a Couvicil of Appointment, cojisisting of four Sena- 
 tors and the Governor, which disposed of every ofiftce under 
 the government. But there is nothing of this kind in our 
 government ; no complaint know n here on the subject of ap- 
 pointment to office. 
 
 The gentleman from Salisbury commenced his observations 
 by saying that our present Constitution w'as foi-med at an 
 inauspicious period. For Ids part, if w'c were to have a Con- 
 vention, he should be glad it could meet under as favourable 
 circumstances as the framers of tins instilment met. At that 
 period, notliing was heard of Easterii or Western iitterests — 
 all were uidted as a band of patriots and brothers in the same 
 cause. But wei-c a Convention now to be held, tlic same 
 union would not exist. Some would insist on being repi'e- 
 sented according to free pojiulation, others according to fede- 
 ral numbers, others accoi-ding to the fertility of our soil. 
 
15 
 
 Ami, after all, he doubted whether so good a Constitution 
 would be produced as tliat which we now enjoy. This Con- 
 stitution guards and protects the rigiits, the property, and the 
 liberty of every citizen ; be he poor or rich, he is equally 
 prote<:ted. 
 
 The gentleman from Salisbury had made an exhibition of 
 large counties and small ones, in oi-derto shew the inequality 
 of our present representation. He would refer that gentle- 
 man to the Convention which sat at Halifax to form our pre- 
 sent Constitution, and to that which convened in Philadel-: 
 phia to form the Constitution of our General Government. 
 In neither of these bodies was the distinction made between 
 lai'ge a!nd small counties, or large and small states. Each 
 county liad an equal weight in the deliberations at Halifax, 
 as each State had in the Convention at Philadelphia. 
 
 In th • Senate of tl»e United States, the little States of Dela- 
 ware and Rhode-Island have an equal voice with the large 
 States of New-York and Virginia; and in case of no election 
 being made by the people, of the President of the U. States, 
 the choice is left to the House of Representatives, who vote, 
 not according to their numbers, but by States ; so that the 
 smallest States have as much weight in that important elec- 
 tion, as the largest. He believed the principle contended for 
 by tlie gentleman was new, and yet had to be tried, that is, 
 of being entirely represented by numbers. 
 
 The gentleman from Salisbury has undertaken to class the 
 several counties, according to their eastern or western loca- 
 tion, stating that one-third of the population of the State, in 
 one section, has more weight in the government of the State 
 than two-thirds in the other. Mr. A. could not accede to the 
 gentleman’s plan of dividing tlie State into eastern and wes- 
 tern sections. He denied the existence of an eastern and 
 western division. Once let us progress in the work of inter- 
 nal improvement, and if any sectional division existed, it 
 would be found very different from that suggested by the gen- 
 tleman. If he were to divide the State into sections, he 
 should class them into four sections, as follows, viz : Ashe, 
 Wilkes, Surry, Stokes, Rockingiiam, Caswell, Person, Gran- 
 ville, Warren, Halifax, Martin, Washington, Tyrrell, iNorth- 
 timpton, Bertie, Hertford, Gates, Chowan, Perquimons, Pas- 
 quotank, Camden and Currituck, on the Northern boundary. 
 He said he hoped to live to see the day when the produce of 
 each of these counties would find the way to market through 
 the same channel. There you find large and small counties 
 completely intermixed, all possessing tlie same interest, and 
 havdng the same object in view. A lai’ge county nothing te 
 
fcai* from a small comity, having an equal weight in the Le- 
 gislature. He tiierelbrc tliought it sin wise now to disturb the 
 rig'ht so long enjoyed, of counties being equally rcjiresented, 
 ■when nothing like oppression had ever been expeidenced under 
 the system. aive, Franklin, Johnston, Nasii, Edgecombe, 
 I’itt, Beaufort, ilyde, Duplin, Wayne, Onslow, Greene, Le- 
 noir, Craven, Jo les and Carteret, he considered connected 
 together in their views and interests. Orange, Giulford, Ran- 
 dolph, Chatham, Moore, Cumberland, Bladen, Sampson, 
 New-Hanover and Brunswick, lie classed as a third division, 
 possessing the same interests; and Buncombe, Hayw'oood, 
 Burke, Rutherford, Lincoln, Iredell, Rowan, Mecklenburg, 
 Cabarrus, Montgomery, Richmond, Robeson, Anson and Co- 
 lumbus, as a fourth division. Each of which divisions he 
 viewed as closely connected in interest, and in the various 
 plans of public improvement which had been contemplated in 
 the State. 
 
 Dividing the State in this manner, which he thought was 
 a natural and jn-oper division, there would be no danger of 
 small counties ojjpressing large ones, and it was unnecessai-y, 
 therefore, to provide against so imaginary an evil. 
 
 The remark of the gentleman, tliat the poor man’s fifty 
 acres of barren land, gave him a pi;ivilege equal to the rich 
 man’s fifty acres of the most fertile soil, he did not consider 
 as a defect, but an exccilcnce in our Constitution. Mr. A. 
 did not wish to live under a government where the rich and 
 the poor did not enjoy equal piivileges. 
 
 In conclusion, Mr. A. considered our jiresent Constitution 
 as a rich treasure, bequeathed to us by our ancestors, and lie 
 was desirous of handing it down to our children unimpaired. 
 
 Mr. J. Hiix observed, that the Resolutions before the com- 
 mittee, simply recommending to tiic pec pie the propriety of 
 calling a Convention, for the purpose of': amending our pre- 
 sent State Constitution, were such as he most willingly and 
 heartily concurred in : Resolutions well worthy the attention 
 and deliberation of the Legislature, and of vast importance to 
 the welfare and prosperity of North-Carolina. 
 
 That objections (said he) should be urged against an un- 
 dertaking of this kind is not much to be wondered at, parti- 
 cularly, when wc take into consideration the situation ol our 
 State, and the great diversity of interest which unluckily per- 
 vades it. But a more favorable opportunity for effecting an 
 amendment to our Constitution, he believed, never had, aud, 
 perliaps never wmiUl occur. And if gentlemen were no /. «iis- 
 posccl to view tiie subject with coldness and indifference, we 
 
17 
 
 might hereafter, look in vain for its adoption, and at once 
 make k surrender of all our pretensions to privilege and 
 equality. 
 
 Tliis (he said) was no new subject ; it possessed none of 
 the charms of novelty ; and, perliaps many gentlemen were 
 already so familiarised to it, that they were even now pre- 
 pared to vote upon it, without hearing its discussion. If 
 however, by discussing, (said he) any additional lights can 
 possibly be thrown upon it, convincive of its propriety and 
 expediency, it would afford to its friends a matter of some 
 consolation. 
 
 Ours is a government, said Mr. H. which happily places 
 all power and sovereignty in the hands of the people. Equal 
 rights and equal privileges are accorded to all our citizens ; 
 and such no doubt was the intention of the framers of our 
 present State Constitution. They wisely provided that each 
 district or county should be represented in the General As- 
 sembly upon fair and equitable principles, and all alike have 
 an equal number of representatives. But it was not at that 
 time foreseen (for human wisdom could not foresee all the 
 amendments that experience migiit prove to be necessary) 
 that the immense emigration to the western parts of North- 
 Carolina, and subsequent iiicrease of population, would ren- 
 der some change or altei*ation necessary, in order to sustain 
 that equality w Inch at first was contemplated. Hence it was 
 that sectional feelings and prejudices had arisen ; hence it 
 was tliat there existed in this State an eastern and western 
 interest. It became necessary, therefore, to correct the pre- 
 sent unequal representation of the people. And for tliis pur- 
 jiose, it is now proposed to submit to their consideration the 
 propriety of voting at our next election, for or against a Con- 
 vention. 
 
 Sir, (said Mr. H.) the right as well as expediency of re- 
 commending the measure under consideration, has more than 
 once been questioned. If, however, (said he,) the gentleman 
 from Halifax (Mr. Alston,) who was last up, or any other 
 gentleman, could show to the satisfaction of the committee, 
 that there existed no necessity for calling a Convention, he 
 was willing to submit. But if the weightiest arguments of 
 gentlemen in the opposition, were founded, as they seemed to 
 be, in their acknowledged prejudice and pre-possession, he 
 hesitated not to say that they were liable to the charge of in- 
 consistency, and were utterly regardless of the best and dear- 
 est interests of the State. 
 
 Government we are told, (said Mr. H.) was instituted for 
 the common good— -for the protection, prosperity and kappi- 
 
 3 
 
18 
 
 i>ess ol' the people. Tiiceciorc, the people alone liave an iu 
 contestable ami imalienahle i-ight to institute g-ovcniment. 
 and to eelbrni, alter or totally change the same whenever 
 their protection, prosperity or happiness may retpiire it. 
 Vml, it (said he,) there was^any thing improper, or inexpe- 
 dient. in recommending to the people the propriety of amend- 
 ing our present State Constitution, he for one, could not per- 
 ceive it. Tlie course, he tliought, was perfectly a Republi- 
 can one, as would readily he admitted by every one who had 
 any idea of representative government, and if adopted, would 
 not be attended with tliose dangers and diiiiculties which 
 some imagined, but would secure to the citizens of North-Ca- 
 rolina that degree of inlluence and power, proportioned to 
 tlieir numbers, to which they were fairly entitled by every 
 principle of honor and justice. 
 
 it has been said, Mr. Cliairman, (observed Mr. H.) by 
 those who are unfriendly to a Conve>ition, that they could not 
 supjjort tlie measure, because they could discover no practical 
 good which would result from it. 
 
 If sir, (said lie,) gentlemen really believe that our Consti- 
 tution is not defective, or that it is susceptible of no amend- 
 ment, then, they may well be justified in opposing an altera- 
 tion of it. But what (he would ask) was the object of a Re- 
 publican government ? Was it not to secure to the citizens of 
 a country equal rights and privileges ? And was this equality 
 secured to the citizens of North-Carolina ? Most assuredly it 
 was not. The practical good effects, therefore, which would 
 necessarily he produced hy an amendment of our Constitu- 
 tion, are simply these : Our I'^eprcseiitation would be regula- 
 ted in proportion to our population, and wealth, if gentlemen 
 pleased to have it so ; each section of the State would possess its 
 due weight and influence in the Legislature, and all parties 
 would be placed precisely upon an equal footing. But, perhaps, 
 even this arrangement would not be agreeable to ail ; for it 
 would he proposing to the members of the east, who at present 
 rule, to surrender up a portion of their power, and such applica- 
 tions were well known to he unw holesome, and seldom attend- 
 ed with success, whetiier to individuals or States. It was to 
 be hoped, however, that iqion the present occasion, all sec- 
 tional feelings and prejudices would be permitted to subside, 
 and the paramount consideration of the public good alone pre- 
 vail. 
 
 As to any objections (said Mr. H.) which may arise, rela- 
 tive to the constitutionality of this question, tliere can he no 
 doubt. We do not propose, said he, to violate the oaths 
 which we have taken to support the Constitution, by voting 
 
ourselves for an amendment of tliat ijistrmnent. Our object 
 is to shew to the people its defects, and to suggest a remedy. 
 And where he would ask, was the impropriety of such a mea- 
 sui’e ? Where the political profanation which was committed 
 by such a transaction ? Other States, said he, had never liesi- 
 tated to diange tlieir Constitutions whenever the public good 
 required it ; and lie could not conceive wliy Nortii-Carolina 
 should forever remain hehind, indifferent to her own interest 
 and her own dignity. 
 
 Mr. H. said he felt great anxiety upon tliis subject, because 
 he believed no course was better calculated to enhance tlie 
 credit and promote the general interest of the State. But ho 
 would now resume his seat, in order to afford to others, better 
 qualified than himself, an opportunity of expressing their sen- 
 timents upon it. 
 
 Mr. Hawks acknowledged the importance of the subject 
 under consideration, and rejoiced with the gentleman from 
 Salisbury, (Mr. Fisher,) that the House had manifested a dis- 
 position to give to it the consideration w hich that impoi-tance 
 demanded. The Resolutions before the committee contem- 
 plated nothing less than to demolish at once, tiie Yciierable 
 institutions of our fathers, and to substitute in their stead, 
 that which might result from the superior wisdom of their 
 sons ; and under such circumstances, it appeared to him that 
 the first enquiry ought to be, “ are there defects in our pre- 
 sent Constitution, and if so, what arethey ? The gentlemen 
 who had supported the Resolutions before the committee, had 
 represented that instrument as “ unjust and anti-republican 
 in its operations hut, Sir, (said Mr. H.) after scan liing in 
 vain for that long catalogue of grievances, of which wc liavc 
 heard so much, gentlemen seeui, by their silence on other 
 points, tacitly to admit that the inequality of representation is 
 the only obnoxious feature. Mr. H. said, he had been taught 
 to believe that it was among the difficult points in the scieiicc 
 of governmejit to fix upon a principle w hich should equalize 
 representation ; hut he had also been taught tiiat a system 
 founded upon a compound principle (if he migiit so term it) of 
 population and wealth, approached nearest to perfection, and 
 lie now called upon those gentlemen w lm w'cre wiliingto adopt 
 this basis, to shew the inequality and injustice of the present 
 system of representation. — He believed, that to shew' it was 
 impossible ; and if, as he had stated, the friends of the Re- 
 solutions could find no other principle of the. Constitution 
 objectionable, it behoved them to pause and enquire what 
 they wore about to do. Sir, I will answer the enquiry. 
 
20 
 
 Wc are about to touch with unhallowed hands the ark of (tin 
 political saf ty, to set in motion tl»e turbulent waves of fac- 
 tion, and throw the country into unparalelled confusion, 
 merely to gr^atify the caprice of gentlemen who fancy they 
 see evils which have no existence in reality. 
 
 Mr. H. said he would leave it to other gentlemen, who he 
 knew would take part in this Debate, to answ^er those 
 observations founded on official statements and numerical cal- 
 culations which had been made in support of these Resolu- 
 tions. But admitting, said Mr. II. that the complaint of our 
 western brethren is Just, that the jiresent I'epresentation is not 
 altogether equal ; another and not less important enquiry 
 suggests itself, “ Is it expedient, at this time, to alter the Con- 
 stitution ; to say to the people, assemble in Convention and 
 frame for yourselves a new form of government ?” He hoped 
 he should be excused for introducing to the consideration of 
 . the committee on the present occasion, as connected with this 
 view' of the Resolutions, an extract from the noblest state pa- 
 per in the world, the Declaration of Independence. “ Pru- 
 dence indeed will dictate that governments long established 
 should not be changed for light and ti'ansient causes, and ac- 
 cordingly, all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more 
 disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable, than to right 
 themselves by abolishing the forms to which they arc accus- 
 tomed.” 
 
 Forty -five years, said Mr. H. have rolled over our heads 
 since the establishment of this Constitution. 
 
 And here let me pause, to ask w ho w^ere its framers ? They 
 W'ere those w ho lived in the perilous times that tried men’s 
 souls, who fought and bled to secure the liberties of their 
 country, and who having once groaned under the oppressions 
 of tyranny, best knew, by contrast, Avhat liberty was. 
 
 When he called to remembrance these facts, he confessed, 
 that to him it was an hallowed instrument. He had not said, 
 nor did he mean to say, it should be deemed unalterable, but 
 he w'as unwilling to alter it until he could have a perfect as- 
 surance that he would thereby make it better. But it w'as 
 j said, this is a proper time for undertaking the work of revis- 
 ing our Constitution, that all is peace, that no party feeling 
 exists in the country. He thought very differently, and when 
 he called to mind the dictatorial language of the honorable 
 niembei- from Salisbury, he was confirmed in his ojiinion. 
 That gentleman had said, “ let the members of this committee 
 say what they please, w'e must and will have a Convention.” 
 W hen he heard such language as this, he was convinced that 
 this was no time for entering upon the delicate business of 
 
.ibrming a new Constitution. He must say, such lan.i^uage 
 pained his ear, and lie did not expect to have heard it in this 
 committee. Assemble a Convention, said Mr. H. and you 
 carry into it all the exas])erated feelings of the community at 
 lai'ge, and particularly of those who for many years have been 
 clamorous for a Convention. I tell you, Sir, those feelings 
 it would be found difficult to control. In the present embar- 
 rassed state of the country, what security have we, for in- 
 stance, that measures would not be adopted which would vio- 
 late the obligation of contracts ? I mention this as but a so- 
 litary example, which at tliis moment crosses my mind ; God 
 only knows the mass of evil which might result from a Con- 
 stitution framed by angry men, who forgetful of. what they 
 owed to themselves and posterity, sought only to bring with- 
 in their grasp political power. 
 
 Gentlemen say, give us a Convention, and w'e will give you 
 a much better Constitution tlian we have at present. 
 
 It has been said, with as much beauty as truth, that “ His- 
 tory is Philosophy teadiing by example.*’ Let us not, then, 
 shut our eyes upon the hand of Philo.sophy when it points to 
 the History of a sister State. Connecticut has lately formed 
 for itself a new^ Constitution. It was liis lot, Mr. H. said, 
 to reside in that State at the time its Constitution w’as form- 
 ed, and he had an opportunity of observing the result of an 
 experiment in political cl,j mistry : he had seen discordant 
 and heterogeneous particles thrown together, wiiich by no 
 pi-ocess could be made to combine, until ail that was good was 
 precipitated to the bottom, and there floated on the surface a 
 worthless scum. Sir, said Mr. H. Lbelieve the better part of 
 the people lamented the adoption of that Constitution, and 
 still sigh in vain for the restoration of that good which they 
 have lost. 
 
 The gentleman from Salisbury had referred to the old ai'ti- 
 cles of confederation, which having been found defective, had 
 given place to the present Constitution of the United States; 
 and this w as urged as a l eason why we sliould alter our Con- 
 stitution. Tliose articles, said Mr. H. were foi-med by good 
 and great men, but that which w'as built on theory it was found 
 would not stand the test of practice — The only conclusion, 
 tlierefore, faiidy deducible from this historical fact, is, that 
 exjterience is better tlian theory, and this conclusion is a wea- 
 pon in our hands. The merit of our Constitution has been 
 sanctioned by nearly half a century’s eocperience and w'e are 
 asked to desti'OA it to erect upon its ruins the speculations of 
 theorists. 
 
22 
 
 But it is said to be aristocratic and and anti-republican — 
 This is an extraordinary ebar^^e to be bi'ouglit against the 
 government of North-Carolina. There are two men now liv- 
 ing in the United States, who may be termed tlie high-priests 
 of Republicanism, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison — 
 They live in the republican commonwealth of Virginia, and 
 have had much to <lo in tlie formation of its government. And 
 how, he asked, were delegates to the Vii-ginia Legislature 
 elected ? No man is entitled to vote for them who is not in 
 possession of a freehold. No murmuring voice has been heard 
 to issue from these gentlemen at tliis state of things. I have 
 only to say, in conclusion, sir, we mmj live to see our Consti- 
 tution revised, and if we do, w'e will live to repent it. 
 
 Mr. Mokeiiead said, this subject was one of great interest 
 to the State, and on the decision of which no man could feel 
 indifferent. It is a (luestion which is calculated to call forth 
 that kind of public feeling wliich is necessary for the welfare 
 of the country. 
 
 Mr. M. was sorry to see any thing like party feeling intro- 
 duced into this argument. He must tell the gentleman liom 
 Newbern (Mr. Hawks) that he had misunderstood the remark 
 of the gentleman from Salisbury, (Mr. Fisher) when he said 
 we will have a Convention ; it was not the language of me- 
 nace, which he used, but prediction. 
 
 If he could prevail on his friends from the East to attend 
 dispassionately to a plain statement of facts, he should have 
 no doubt of convincing them tiiat our present representation is 
 unequal and unjust, though they might still doubt the jiolicy 
 of the proposed amendment. 
 
 But tlie gentleman from Newbern lias endeavored to excite * 
 an alarm in the committee, which was calculated to prevent 
 a fair discussion of the merits <-f the question. 
 
 Tlie gentleman from Halifax, (Mr. Alston) had comjiarcd 
 the situation of our lai-ge and small counties to the Slates of 
 New-York and Rhode-Island, under the General Government. 
 I^Mr. A. explained.] How are these States represented in 
 Congress ? Like the counties in this State in the General 
 Assembly ? No, Sir, tlie United St.ates are each of them dis- 
 tinct and independent Sovereignties, whereas our count ies arc 
 marked out by lines changeable at the will of the Lcgislatui'c. 
 Congress cannot divide a State, or interfere with it. at all. 
 Mr. M. iiopcd, therefore, this comparison will pass for nouglit. 
 
 Do we, asked Mr. M. see property represented in tlie Ge- 
 neral Government ? No ; the Senate is composed of men 
 representing the sovereignty of the several States. Go, then, 
 
to the House of Representatives. Is any thing' like property 
 there respected ? No ; notliiiig' but IVcemen, with the excep- 
 tion of three-fifths of other persons, which was a matter of 
 compromise with the Southern States at the time the Consti- 
 tution was formed. 
 
 And is there any i-easou, (asked Mr. M.) why property 
 should be represented in this government ? If so, how would 
 gentlemen liave property represented ? How is the Senate at'^ 
 pi-esent composed ^ Is it not the representative of the landed 
 interest of the country ? Is not this a sufficient representa- 
 tion of ])roperty ? Would you have your slaves represented 
 as in the general government? Would you have property 
 represented in both Houses ? If so, you would put it in the 
 power of wealth to dispose of the destinies of your country. 
 
 But the gentleman from Newbern says that Mr. Jefferson 
 and Mr. Madison, whom he calls the iiigh-priests of Repub- 
 licanism, live in Virginia, where no person unpossessed of 
 freehold property is permitted to vote for a representative, 
 yet he says they do not complain, nor are their unrepresented 
 people less ready to fight the battles of their country. Sir ? 
 in the late contest with Great-Britain we have seen the sturdy 
 yeomanry of Virginia ordered to Norfolk foi* her protection ; 
 we have seen them fall victims to the climate and to expo- 
 sure ; and they now lie mouldering in the dust, sacrificed 
 by the laws of a counti'y in which they had no voice ; sacri- 
 ficed by the laws of a State in which they were legislatively 
 annihilated. Mr. M. said he admired the character of Vir- 
 gitiia ; he reverenced her sages ; but he hoped he should not 
 be considered as a political infidel, when he told the commit- 
 tee, he shuddered to think, that the poor freemen of his State 
 should ever be excluded from the Legislative councils of the 
 country. 
 
 To whom, ask Mr. M. did this Country belong, when it 
 burst the British fetters and became independent ? It certain- 
 ly belonged to the whole community, and not to the wealthy 
 alone. Why, then, should the people be deprived of any pri- 
 yilege for which they jointly fought and to which they arc 
 justly entitled ? 
 
 Mr. M. believed, if he could assure himself that the situa- 
 tion of this State would always remain as it now is, he would 
 not be in favour of calling a Convention ; for no gentleman 
 of that committee held the constitution moi'e sacred than he 
 did. He approached it with that awe, with which Moses ap- 
 proach his God while the thunders of Sinai were playing 
 around him 5 he touched it with that diffidence with which 
 the Israelites touched the ark of the Covenant. But thft 
 
24 
 
 r<)imdalio)i of our politic al Fabi-ic is rotting ; \^c must repair 
 it ill time, or in time it will tumble. 
 
 Wbat, Mr. M. asked, was the situation of things at the 
 time when our present Constitution was formed ? The East- 
 ern part of the State was almost the only part which was in- 
 habited. The West had but few settlers. But our lands are 
 now rising in value, and our population is every day increas- 
 ing, while the Eastern pai-t of the State remains much the 
 same. Take us, said lie, poor as we arc, and where is the 
 boasted superiority of the East ? Mr. M. apologized for this 
 remark ; but said, the moment this subject was introduced, 
 the gentlemen from the East made it a party tpiestioii. 
 
 Mr. M. said, he had made a few calculations on this sub- 
 ject, which he would offer to the committee. In this estimate, 
 he had given Granville to the West, lie had considered 
 Wake as neutral, as she ought to be. She is as much the 
 darling of the West as of the East. He had made his calcula- 
 tion first as the gentleman from Newbern wished it to be, ac- 
 cording to Federal numbers. 
 
 The total amount of population (including slaves and free 
 persons of colour, is 638,829. The whole Federal population 
 of the State is 556,839. The Federal population of tlie 27 
 Western counties is 305,013, which reckoning 2,993 persons 
 to send a member, entitles them to 102 members, instead of 
 81, which they now send. The Federal population of the 34 
 Eastern counties is 234,100, which entitles her to 78 members 
 only, instead of 102, which she now sends. 
 
 The Federal population of Wake county entitles her to six 
 members. Representation, then, upon the Federal principle, 
 entitles the West to 21 members more, and the East to 24 less 
 than they now send into the Legislature, and Wake to 3 more. 
 
 Go to the next prineijile of representation ; that of free 
 white population and taxation. The taxes of the whole State 
 (exclusive of clerks and auctioneers) is S65,735 60. Taxes of 
 the Western counties arc S31,184 9 ; of the Eastern, S32,203 
 41 ; of Wake county, S2,348 7. Estimating $353 for each 
 member, and the Western counties will send 88 : the Eastern 
 91, and W^ake 6. 
 
 Go to the next branch of the principle, that of free white 
 population, to which the opposers of these resolutions have 
 the greatest objection, and the Western part of the State, will 
 lie entitled to 31 more members than she has at present, and 
 the Eastern part to 34 less. 
 
 For the total white population of tlie State is 419,200. The 
 Western counties have 253,235, vvhich, allowing 2,253 persons 
 to send a member, w ill give her 112 members. The Eastern 
 
25 
 
 counties have 154,014, which will give to them 68 members. 
 The white population of Wake being 11,951, gives to her 5 
 members. 
 
 So that upon the principle of free white population and 
 taxation combined, the Western counties are entitled to 100 
 members, 19 more than at present. The Eastern counties, 
 to 79 members, which are 23 less than at present. Wake 
 county, to 5 members instead of 3. 
 
 Then compound tlie representation of the Federal popula- 
 tion,, free white population and taxation, and the Western 
 counties are entitled to 101 members, 20 more than at pre- 
 sent, and the Eastern counties will be entitled to 79 members, 
 23 less than at present. So that, upon the very principles 
 upon wliich the o])ponents of the resolutions contend, the 
 West evidently labor under important grievances. But 
 wealth is sufficiently represented in the Senate to afford it-. 
 self prStection. The representation of our state should be upon 
 the principle of free white population, requiring certain qual- 
 ifications in the representatives, and in the electors of one 
 branch of the Legislature, barely sufficient to protect wealth. 
 
 Wealth fattens upon the necessities of poverty ; it can 
 bribe ; it can corrupt: and whenever it shall have a predomi- 
 nant weight in our government, we may bid farewel to the 
 boasted freedom of our Republic, andignominiously submit to 
 the yoke of Aristocratic Slavery. 
 
 Tlie 34 Eastern counties having a free white population of 
 154,014, send to the Legislature 102 members ; the 27 Wes- 
 tern counties send 8 1 members, which in the same ratio of 
 the East represent 122,229, leaving a balance of 131,024 free 
 wdiite' persons, together with all the negroes of the West 
 arrayed against the negroes of the East, and unrepresented. 
 Add to this. Sir, the vast extent of the West, the health of the 
 climate, the territory acquired from the Indians, the vast in- 
 crease of the value of the lands and wealth of tl)e West, from 
 internal improvement ; add these to tlie grievances under 
 which we labor, and ere long they will become intolerable, 
 not only to patriotism, but to patience itself. 
 
 When I predict, under these circumstances, a Convention 
 will be had, can the prophecy be doubted ? 
 
 We have now met the call of the gentleman from Newbern. 
 Here is our grievance, which we wish to be attended to. 
 
 No man would be more unwdlling, said Mr. M. than my- 
 self to touch the Constitution, if I did not think the occasion 
 called for it, and that the time is peculiarly favorable. The 
 proposition before the committee ought not to be considered 
 in the light of a contest for power. We do not ask from our 
 
 4 
 
■20 
 
 l^asU'ru ItroUiren any to wliicli wc are not entitled. 
 
 Nor woiilii wo ask tor acoiTOCtion of this grievance, ifit were 
 not coiistar.tly acrunuilating. For. to do our Eastern breth- 
 ren jiisiico, wc acknowledge they have wielded their power 
 witli a great degree of justice and moderation, and it is hoped 
 they will continue to do so. 
 
 It will be to the East, if we arc ever invaded. It may be 
 cx]iccted your j)r(dection will not be found in your negroes j 
 it will he found in yourselves, or in the strength of the West. 
 
 For equal i ig!)ts and privileges our fathers jointly fought, 
 and bled and died, and their bones now lie hallowing the soil 
 for the freedom of w hich they fell a sacrifice. 
 
 But give us these, and when the demon of desolation shall 
 hover ai'ound your borders, i?nd the tragedy of Hampton is 
 to be [)crformcd on your shores, cal! on your brethren of the 
 
 est. and the mountains will roll their might to the main, 
 carrying protection to your wives, your children, your homes 
 and your country. 
 
 ^Ir. BiiACKLEDGE observed, that he had not intended to 
 take any part in the debate concerning the resolutions on the 
 table 5 how imjwrtant soever their subject matter might be. 
 He was anxious that the discussion should be restricted within 
 very naiTow limits ; for he feared that our sectional feelings 
 and prejudices might be aroused and exasperated by a pro- 
 tracted discussion of this ungracious subject. On similar 
 occasions, it iiivariably eventuated, as he believed, in harsh 
 and angry recrimination. He dreaded these anti-national 
 feelings ; he deeply lamented their existence ; he still more 
 lamented, that our Western brethren should so studiously fos- 
 ter their growth, and increase their aciumony, by annually 
 thrusting upon us tiiis invidious contest ; when they must be 
 sensible, tliat it will prove both unprofitable and unavailing. 
 As he perceived, however, that the debate, contrary to his 
 wishes, was about to take a very w ide range, he felt it due to 
 the few gentlemen who opposed these resolutions, on the floor j 
 and also due to his constituents, not to remain entirely silent. 
 
 1 do not intend, (said Mr. B.) to enter into an examina- 
 tion, or attempt to detect and exjiose the fallacy of the gen- 
 tlemen’s arithmetical and statistical calculations. Though 
 compiled with so much care, and delivered with so much con- 
 fidence and complacency, he believed they were assailable. 
 But he left that task to gentlemen who were moi-e experienced 
 and more able to execute it than himself: he knew there were 
 such gentlemen, in their places, who were prepared to meet 
 them, in due time, on that ground ; and to oppose them with 
 statements of an opposite character. 
 
27 
 
 Mr. Chairman, (said Mr. B.) I bcc; leave to call the atten- 
 tion of the committee to some remarks, made by the gentle- 
 man from Rockingham, (Mr. Morehead,) in reply totlie able 
 address which his friend from Newbern, (Mr. Hawks,) had 
 delivered on the subject. 
 
 It will be recollected. Sir, that he (Mr. Hawks) had laid 
 down as the proper basis of representation, a ratio combining 
 both population and taxation — and, resting upon tiiis basis, 
 had called on the gentlemen in opposition to shew that our 
 present Constitution is inconsistent or unequal. The gentle- 
 man from Rockingham has essayed to do it. ISlr. B’s pre- 
 sent object was to examine whether he had done it satisfac- 
 toi’ily. That gentleman, (Mr. Morehead) had extracted from 
 his statistical budget, the facts, that there were, in the Wes- 
 tern counties of the State, upwards of one hundred thousand 
 freemen, more than there are in the Eastern counties ; and 
 that the Eastern have a greater number of representatives in 
 the Legislature, than the Western counties. From these data 
 he concludes that the representation is unequal ; and that the 
 Constitution should be altei-ed to remedy the grievance. 
 This, surely, is no answer to the argument of my friend from 
 Newbern. However correct the conclusion migiit be, were 
 we to assume population solely as the basis of representation, 
 he needed not now to say — it was irrelevant to the question 
 now in issue. But certainly wdien applied to the basis as- 
 sumed, to the question in issue, the couciusion shot wide of 
 the mark ; it was false and illogical. But if the gentleman 
 insisted that population, solely, should be the basis of repre- 
 sentation, he confessed he differed from him essentially as to 
 the correctness of the principle. He did believe, that in all 
 governments, w here the stability of its institutions w as deem- 
 ed important, it was found necessary that property, as well 
 as persons, should be represented in the national councils. 
 The protection of property was one of the strongest incen- 
 tives to the formation of political societies ; it w as one of the 
 most indissoluble links which bound us together as a society. 
 It is property which mainly swells the State and National 
 Treasury, by its liberal contributions; without which, iiideed, 
 both the State and the Union would crumble into ruins, from 
 their ow n imbecility. It surely, then, should be duly protect- 
 ed; and it could not be property protected w ithout l epresen- 
 tation. Our own colonial experience has taught us this max- 
 im, that nothing can be properly protected, unless its due 
 weight is felt in the' national councils ; and the experience of 
 all nations, who have bad any correct notions of rational li- 
 berty, has stamped it with the impress of truth. Onr govern- 
 
28 
 
 nient is not a tlemocrary ; a pure democracy ; nor did !ie 
 conceive that it was the intenti(>n of the framers of our Con- 
 stitution to make it such. It was impossible that a nation^ 
 as wealthy, as populous, and as widely extended as ours, ever 
 could exist under such a form of government. It is, and was 
 intended to he, a mixed republic ; in which, whilst the libe- 
 rality and freedom of its j)rinciplcs were carefully provided 
 for, its stability and duration were not neglected ; a foiin of 
 government as distinct from democracy, as anarchy was from 
 despotism. He hoped it would remain so — that the time ne- 
 ver would come, when the privileges of a citizen and a free- 
 holder, would be conferred on every vagabond who might 
 wander amongst us, for he distrusted this vagrant patriotism — 
 that we might never be reduced to tlie state desci’ibed by a 
 satyrist, more ])i*ized for wit than ingenuousness ; a state, 
 ** w here every blackguard rascal is a king.” 
 
 Mr. B. observed, that he believed the gentleman, (Mr. 
 Morehead) himself, was not willing to go the w'hole length to 
 which this principle of disorganization would lead him. He 
 was induced to believe so from the second division of his ar- 
 gument. In this he assumed poj)ulation and taxation com- 
 bined, as the proper basis of representation^ and contended 
 that out of our owoi mouths we are condemned. He begged 
 leave to call the attention of the committee to this part of the 
 subject. That gentleman, (Mr. Morehead) invites us to re- 
 view the Comptroller’s report. He tells us that from this it 
 is evident, that, (excluding the county of Wake,) the Western 
 counties pay into tlie State Treasury a sum exceeding w hat is 
 paid by the Eastern counties ; though by a comparatively small 
 sum ; in fact, by what we may, on this subject, call a mere 
 fraction, and hence concludes, that the representation is une- 
 qual, even on our own principles. Now, Mr. Chairman, 
 said Mr. B. admitting that the gentleman’s data are entirely 
 correct, he asked the committee seriously, whether, when 710 
 real or practical evil existed, it was prudent or w ise to demo- 
 lish a fabric as venerable and as time-honoured as our Consti- 
 tution, solely for the purpose of attempting to rear another, 
 whose symmetry or proportions might better please the eye ? 
 Whether it were proper to burn that noble “ Magna Charta” 
 of rights, which our ancestors have left us, because our self- 
 complacency induces us to believe, that we could write another 
 which might read more trippingly on the tongue, or look better 
 upon paper ? Whether, in a nation comprising nearly a mil- 
 lion of citizens, and many millions of wealth, because a mere 
 fraction of either may not be fully represented, the very bonds 
 of society should be dissolved ? the government itself should 
 
29 
 
 be resolved into its original elements ? and the Constitution, 
 the Law and the Gospel, sacrificed on the altar of political 
 expei-iinent. Yet all this is demanded ; and that, too, with 
 no security as to what will be the event of the convulsion : 
 with an utter uncertainty as to what may be the nature of the 
 “ shapeless monster,” spi'inging out of this chaotic confusion. 
 With a possibility, nay, I may say, a strong probability that 
 our situation will be deterioi*ated by the experiment. For I 
 fear, that at least our wisdom and our patriotism would be 
 found unequal to the task of presci-ving equal rights and na- 
 tional liberty, by throwing around them barriers as impreg- 
 nable as those which our ancestors have erected. But to re- 
 turn to the gentleman’s data. He denied that they were en- 
 tirely correct. With the greatest respect for the gentleman 
 from Rockingham, he must be permitted to observe, that 
 though he had scrupulously told us the truth, he had cau- 
 tiously abstained from disclosing to us the wlmle truth. It 
 will be remarked, that up to this period of the debate, no 
 mention has been made, by that gesitleman or any other, of 
 the vast sums of revenue which are poured into the lap of the 
 general government, by the eastern section of tlie State. But 
 without a reference to these, we could never arrive at a cor- 
 rect conclusion : for without them the premises were incom- 
 plete. He would submit a few remarks to the committee on 
 this subject, with a view of elucidating the question. He be- 
 lieved he might safely assert, that the individual towns of 
 !Newbern, Wilmington, Washington and Edenton, paid into 
 the national coffers more money than was derived from all 
 the wealthy and widely extended regions of the West. He 
 had no documents to which he could refer, for the establish- 
 ment of this or any other facts of the same nature. He had 
 taken no pains to j)rocure them, for he did not expect to have 
 shared in the debate. But he believed he hazarded nothitjg 
 in asserting, that the excess which the Eastern counties paid 
 into the general treasury, over and above what the Western 
 counties paid into the same fund, equalled, if it did not ex- 
 ceed, the ordinary revenue of the. State of North-Carolina. 
 He insisted that the committee ought to take this fact into 
 view, and to give it much weight, as bearing on the present 
 question. Our relative representation in Congress is not af- 
 fected by this excess of taxation ; and it ought to be felt 
 somewhere ; it ought to be felt in this legislature. It is this 
 sum paid into the treasury, which increases our navy, sup- 
 ports our army, and enables the administration of the union 
 to carry all its functions into due operation ; for the benefit 
 both of the West and the East j for the general good. Giv- 
 
30 
 
 ing^ then, this circumstanre its due wcig'lit, takinsj this view 
 of the subject, wo perceive, that tliou.a;!i tlicii- population ex- 
 ceeds ours, l)y more than one luindj'ed thousand, yet we pay 
 a double oi- triple (luantum of taxation. And hence we may 
 fairly conclude, that on the proposed basis of population and 
 taxation combined, tbe present representation is equally pro- 
 portioned between the Western and Eastern counties ; at ' 
 least as equally so, as is to be desired for any j)ractical pur- 
 poses. 
 
 Practical perfection, Mr. Cliairnian, is not to be expected 
 from sbort-siiyhtei) humanity ; least of all, is it to be expect- 
 ed in political combinations. It can exist no where but in 
 the fanciful visions of political theorists. On any practical 
 system of representation, there will always be a fraction of 
 population or Wealth, not as well rejiresented in some places 
 as in others. But if no ]M*actical evil result therefrom, or the 
 dispropoi'tion is not enormous, it is unnecessary, nay dange- 
 rous, to call into action the rude ami unsteady hand of re- 
 form. Both population and wealth, are necessarily very 
 fluctuating in a country so new as ours ; where such great 
 temptations are held out to enterprize ; where industry is 
 daily discovering new channels, into which it can be more 
 profitably directed; and where those local attachments exist, 
 in so slight a liegrce, w!iic!i, in older countries, bind tlieir 
 inhabitants, though poor and enslaved, with indissoluble ties, 
 to the liearth-stone of their ancestors. From the operation of 
 one, or of all these circiunstanccs combined, a section of coun- 
 try, w Itich now boasted of its population and wealth, might, 
 the next year, be drained of both ; and the ratio of repi-esen- 
 tation, which one year was precisely just, would the next 
 year in theory, at least, be odious and unequal. From the 
 operation of the same causes, it sometimes happened, that in 
 sections (^f the country where enterprize and industry had, 
 for a long time, languished and slumbered in inaction, and 
 wealth and j)opulation were at a dead stand ; that a new im- 
 petus was given to both, from the discovery of some new 
 source of employment. He believed that this was about to be 
 the case in the Eastern counties; and that it would eventuate 
 in equalizing the population of the Eastern and Western divi- 
 sions of the State. It is well knowm, tiiat there are immense 
 bodies of w ilderness in the Eastern ]>art of the State, some of 
 which have never been ti'odden by' the foot of civilization. 
 They afford the most fertile soils in the State, though now* 
 uncultivated. He believed they would not long remain so. ■ 
 The piercing eye of cupidity, was already attracted towards 
 them ; and gloated on tlie “ promised laud” with rapture and 
 
Si 
 
 delight. The genius of enterprise and iabor, wearied with 
 repose, had already aroused fi-om inaction — and was prepar- 
 ing with i-enewed vigor, to address liimselfto the grateful la- 
 bor. Experiments had been made ; and these lands had been 
 found to render an ample and abundant reward to the agri- 
 culturalist. Now, Sir, when under these auspices, our wide- 
 ly extended swamps and pocosons shall have been reclaimed 
 by tlie hand of (mltivation ; when our desarts shall smile ; 
 and our wilderness blossom as the rose ; (and ere long, I 
 trust tiicy will,) then Sir, I believe, that the scale even of 
 poj)ulation will preponderate in the East 
 
 But we are told, Mr. Chairman, (said Mr. B.) that now 
 is the accepted time to examine and amend our rotten Consti- 
 tution — that in this interval of peace ; tins cera of good feel- 
 ings, wlien no party excitement exists, we should address our- 
 selves seriously to the task of altering the rotten patch-work 
 of our ancestors ; we are told also, that we are as wise and 
 as pati'iotic ; ])erhaps wiser -and more patriotic than they 
 wei'e ; and consequently, pei-fectly competent to perform that 
 necessary, but irreverent duty. On tiiis occasion. Sir, (with 
 my friend from Newbern,) I cannot but advert with pain to 
 the bold and peremptory language with which the gentlemen 
 from the West denounce the Constitution ; and I had almost 
 said, menaced its supporters. We are plainly told, that if we 
 do not consent peaceably to the alteration of tiic Constitution, 
 they will forcibly alter it : if w^e do not vote for the resolu- 
 tions on the table — they will have a Convention : they will 
 destroy the Constitution. I have heard, (said Mr. B.) this 
 language held out of doors ; even there I heard it, with sur- 
 prise. But he was grieved and dismayed, that in the face of 
 the people in this hall, such sentiments and such language, 
 should be boldly uttered and seriously defended. Does this 
 ' language bespeak that cool and temjierate spirit, that total 
 absence of party feeling, or that noble disinterested- 
 ness, which submits to partial evil for the general good ; 
 which w^e ought to expect in a Convention ? Or did these 
 sentiments encourage us in believing, that in a Convention in 
 these days, we could hope to assemble legislators as cautious 
 and as wise ; or patriots as pure and as single-hearted, as 
 were they, wiiose names are subscribed to oiu* present Con- 
 stitution ? He feared not. Much as he respected the friends 
 of the Resolutions on the table : much as he respected his own 
 Eastern friends, he confessed, he respected the patriots and 
 heroes of ’"6 more: he had not sufficient self-complacency, 
 to believe that we are as wise or as patriotic as they were ; 
 far less did he believe, that we are wiser or more patriotic. 
 
32 
 
 Ami, oil this score, tiie sentiments, proclaimed by the gentle- 
 men in opposition, had perfected his belief — they had exalted 
 it to faith. lie feared, that tlie rapid increase of luxury and 
 M'caltli ; the wide-spread influence of Banks and other cor- 
 porations ; the prevalence of a spirit of faction in some pla- 
 ces, and of aristocracy in others, had tended to sap the foun- 
 dations of public spirit every where ; and had thereby, in 
 some degree, enervated and corrupted genuine republican 
 principles. 
 
 Mr. B. asserted that it was unwise and dangerous to tam- 
 per with old Institutions, on any occasions but those of the 
 most emergency ; it was most unwise to sacrifice a positive 
 good, for the existence of mere visionary evils. Constitutions 
 ought not to be destroyed, for trivial reasons, or imaginary 
 grievances. They were intended as a solemn record of prin- 
 ciples ; they should be fixed, lasting, durable, permanent. 
 Not like municipal lavvs, which being applicable to the 
 changeful transactions of ordinary life, should change as they 
 do; and wiiichthe same power that breathed them into exist- 
 ence one year, miglit annihilate the next. They should not 
 be placed in the power of the lordlings of faction — nor treat- 
 ed as tlie toys or playthings of ambition. He repeated it, 
 they should not be altered or destroyed for aught, but real 
 and serious grievances. None such existed. He called on the 
 Gentlemen from the West to point them out if there were 
 any. Though the preponderance of power is in the East, I 
 ask them if it has ever been ungraciously exercised ? Can the 
 West complain of any unbrotiicriy sentiment which we have 
 ever fostered? Any unkind, illiberal or unfraternal act, that 
 we have sanctioned towards them ? The Gentlemen from the 
 West admit they cannot. They well know, that we are always 
 ready to do their talents and merit ample justice, by the promp- 
 titude with wiiich we confer upon them the offices of Govern- 
 ment — in the improvement of roads and rivers, the public 
 purse has been devoted almost exclusively to the West ; its 
 contents ha\e been cheerfully distributed among them, with 
 the most liberal hand, and the most lavish profusion. 
 
 To conclude, Mr. Chairman, (said IVH*. B.) though my rea- 
 son were not fully convinced of the utter impolicy of the re- 
 solutions on the table ; which it most certainly is ; the 
 strong feeling of respect and veneration with which I have 
 always regarded that glorious instrument ; would induce me 
 to hesitate long, ere, under any circumstances, I would as- 
 sent to its destruction. When he called to mind, tiiat it was 
 the mantle, which was thrown around the first born of the 
 Revolution, on its natal day ; that it is the handy-work of the 
 ])atriots and heroes who achieved our independence — the rich 
 
33 
 
 reward of their toils, or the sacred price of their blood — and 
 that it has protected us from our revolutionary cradle to a 
 vigorous maturity, he confessed that he felt for it the deepest 
 veneration. Wlien he recollected, that it had resisted the 
 encroachments of power, and the turbulence of faction ; that 
 it shielded us through the storms and troubles of a second 
 glorious and bloody war, and still afforded its ample protec- 
 tion, whilst peace, and plenty, and happiness, smiled on all 
 our borders, the strongest confidence in its excellence, was 
 added to his veneration. Feeling these sentiments, and feel- 
 ing them deeply, he trusted that he should never stretch out 
 an unhallowed hand to assist in its destruction. 
 
 Mr. Leak — Never did I arise on an occasion in which I 
 felt a greater distrust of my own abilities, than the present ; 
 a feeling naturally arising in my breast when I consider tho 
 vast importance of the question that is agitated ; when I con- 
 sider the importance of that principle, that is about to be in- 
 volved in the final determinati^xn of the resolutions on your 
 table ; that principle that is about to receive a legislative 
 sanction so completely subversive of legislative rights. 
 
 Yet I must confess at the same time, notwithstanding this 
 self distrust, notwithstanding my own inability to wipe away 
 the local and sectional feeling already roused by the discus- 
 sion of this question, and which when agitated, seems to res- 
 pond with reanimated vigor from every bosom. I say I con- 
 fess I was never propelled forward by a stronger stimulus. 
 
 I never felt a more irresistible inducement on entering the ' 
 wide field of debate. Whether it proceeds from ignoi-anoe, or 
 that I am animated by the justness of the cause, I shall not 
 here determine. But here let me declare, that if I thought 
 our essential welfare and privileges as a free and enlightened 
 people demanded it not ; if I thought the principle of a repre- 
 sentative and popular government, corresponded with the si- 
 tuation in which the freemen of North-Carolina are placed ; 
 if I thought I could in any way discharge the duty which I 
 owe, the obligation which I conceive myself to be under to 
 the constituents whom I have the honor to represent, without 
 participating in the unpleasant discussion of a question which 
 has already given rise to a sectional and local feeling, I po- 
 sitively affirm it would be my choice. 
 
 In our taking a comprehensive view of the Constitution 
 under which we live, we need not have pointed out the defects 
 existing in that Constitution. We need not be told, as we 
 repeatedly have been this day, that some of its provisions 
 are deficient. We need not be told that equal representa- 
 
 5 
 
34 
 
 tion, Ibmuled upon the principle of free white population, or 
 upon tlie mixed |)i-inriple of population and wealtl), can ever 
 be attained under its fostering care. The most superficial 
 glance will corroborate tlie assertion, and prove to tlie world, 
 that it is not imaginary, that it is not the wild and capricious 
 whim of fancy, but that it is the steady and un- rring hand of 
 wisdom that tells us to suffer not tlie most minute infringe- 
 ment of our rights. “ For tlic leading defect in all popular 
 or republican governments, is the want of a proper jealousy 
 of tlie minutest infringements of popular rights.” 
 
 Let facts speak for themselves, and when these facts are 
 adduced, let that contracted and illiberal spirit of sectional 
 feeling which characterizes us this day, be thrown aside, and 
 let impartial feelings usurp the beam, and unprejudiced rea- 
 son determine facts. Let arguments be governed by tlu'lr 
 weight, hy the conviction they carry with them, and by that 
 criterion let them j-ise or fall. 
 
 When undei" the auspices and protection of Divine Provi- 
 dence, these former colonies ‘'ifeecame free and independent 
 States; when our forefathers resolved to shake off tlie shackles 
 of ministerial ojipi-ession, or sacrifice their lives on the altar 
 of liberty ; when those chains of oppression that held us down, 
 those bonds of political association, were burst asunder, it 
 became necessary to establish some laws to prevent anarchy 
 and confusion, to p»-event unrestrained liberty from degene- 
 rating into licentiousness, for licentiousness is nothing but an 
 ebullition, an excrescence of liberty ; it is a speck in the poli- 
 tical body, which if suffered to rage uncontrolled, spreads its 
 contagious influence, and, like “ Aaron’s serpent, swallows 
 up the rest.” It was then the people claimed to themselves 
 the riglit of establishing a free and independent government; 
 a right inherent in themselves, and “ formidable to tyrants 
 only.” At this time we had just emancipated from the colo- 
 nial shackles of England, we had just emerged from that po- 
 litical thraldom which had like to have enveloped us in the 
 besom of destruction. It was at such a time the Constitution 
 under v\hich we live was framed ; it was in times of difficulty 
 when it was impossible for that reflection and mature delibe- 
 ration to be exercised, which tlie imjiortance of the subject 
 demanded ; for at no time is it an easy task to frame a code 
 of laws which can buffet the billows of popular rumor and 
 discontent ; much less such an one as in its nature has to 
 accommodate the various changes through which we have 
 passed. The more simple idea of order and equity were at 
 that time sufficient to guide those venerable heroes in the 
 revolution, in the formation of a code of laws calculated for 
 the internal adiniilistration of justice. But equality of repre- 
 
35 
 
 sentation, the very basis on whicii all republican governments 
 are founded : equality of representation, that very principle 
 (which does not even appear to be well understood at this 
 enlightened day, or if understood, is treated with indifference) 
 is in its nature more intricate and perplexed, and requires 
 long experience, together with a conversant knowledge of 
 history, to be well understood by any person. 
 
 It has been stated to us by the gentleman from Salisbury, 
 (Mr. Fisher) that serious defects do exist in the constitution, 
 which cry aloud for redress, and that the only method by 
 which redress can be obtained, is by a Convention. This is 
 certainly true, fur if it is defective, it can be remedied only 
 by the delegated powers of the people. The sovereignty is 
 in the people, consequently the people have an indefeasible, 
 an unalienable and an incontestible right to modify, change 
 or annul any form of government w hich does not go to secure 
 the liberties of the governed. If this position, then, can be 
 true, and that it is there is »io gentleman on this floor w ill 
 deny, it is equally true, that every thing that comes in con- 
 tact with that power, that every thing that prevents the people 
 from having their due weight in legislative proceedings, is a 
 grievance contrary to the spirit of a Republican government, 
 and which the people certainly have a right to consult toge- 
 ther for the common good and redi-ess. 
 
 There arc in this State, 62 counties, containing a' white 
 population, according to the last census, of 4 19,200. Thirty- 
 live of these counties, (wiiich we will denominate Eastern) 
 contain a white population of 164,976 ; and the remaining 
 twenty-seven, which we will call Western, contain a white 
 population of 254,224. This division will be observ able on a 
 Map, by having drawn a North and South line from Warren 
 county to the South-Carolina line, which will intersect War- 
 ren. Wake, &c. 
 
 If the aggregate amount of wdiite population, viz ; 419,200 
 be divided by 186, the number of representatives elected by 
 the 62 counties, excluding the borough towns, it will give 
 2253, as the number each man ought to represent, and the 
 27 counties, which now have 81 representatives, by this mode 
 of calculating ought to have 112, .and the 35 counties which 
 now have 105, ought to have only 74. 
 
 But as we .stand at present, you will find, if you will take 
 the aggregate amount of the Eastern white population, and 
 divide it by the number of representatives they now have ; 
 and take tlie aggregate amount of the Western wiiite popula- 
 tion, and divide it by the number of representatives we now 
 have, you will find, I say, that every 1571 souls in the 35 
 counties before alluded to, have as great a share in enacting 
 
36 
 
 laws, aiitl have the same weight in our legislative body, aa* 
 every 3139 in the remaining 27 have. How to reconcile this 
 with my notions of a republican government, I confess I am 
 somewliat at a loss to determine, if the white population is 
 tahen as the correct principle on which to build a representa- 
 tive govej iunent, and it certainly should, in most cases, be 
 the very pivot on which they turn. The number of represen- 
 tatives tliat each county would be entitled to, upon the footing 
 of equal representation, would be as follows:' 
 
 Ansvn 
 
 3 
 
 Caswell 
 
 3 
 
 Lincoln 
 
 6 
 
 Robeson 
 
 2 
 
 \shc 
 
 1 
 
 Chotvan 
 
 1 
 
 Lenoir 
 
 1 
 
 Richmond 
 
 2 
 
 Beaufort 
 
 2 
 
 Duplin 
 
 2 
 
 Moore 
 
 2 
 
 Randolph 
 
 4 
 
 Beitie 
 
 2 
 
 Edgecomb 
 
 3 
 
 Montg'omery 
 
 3 
 
 Rutherford 
 
 5 
 
 Buncombe 
 
 4 
 
 Franklin 
 
 2 
 
 Martin 
 
 1 
 
 Rockingham 
 
 3 
 
 Burke 
 
 5 
 
 Guilford 
 
 5 
 
 Mecklenburg 
 
 5 
 
 Rowan 
 
 9 
 
 Brunswick 
 
 1 
 
 Gates 
 
 1 
 
 Nash 
 
 2 
 
 Stokes 
 
 5 
 
 Bladen 
 
 1 
 
 Greene 
 
 1 
 
 Northampton 
 
 2 
 
 Sampson 
 
 2 
 
 CabaiTus 
 
 2 
 
 Granville 
 
 3 
 
 N. Hanovel^ 
 
 2 
 
 Surry 
 
 4 
 
 Columbus 
 
 1 
 
 Haywood 
 
 1 
 
 Onslow 
 
 1 
 
 Tjurell 
 
 1 
 
 Cun'ituck 
 
 2 
 
 Hertford 
 
 1 
 
 Orang-e 
 
 7 
 
 Warren 
 
 2 
 
 Craven 
 
 2 
 
 Hyde 
 
 1 
 
 Person 
 
 2 
 
 Washington 
 
 1 
 
 Camden 
 
 1 
 
 Haliiax 
 
 2 
 
 Pasquotank* 
 
 2 
 
 Wake 
 
 5 
 
 Carteret 
 
 1 
 
 Iredell 
 
 4 
 
 Perquimons 
 
 2 
 
 Wilkes 
 
 3 
 
 Chatham 
 
 3 
 
 Johnston 
 
 2 
 
 Pitt 
 
 2 
 
 Wayne 
 
 2 
 
 Cumbe; and, 
 
 4 
 
 Jones 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 By this calculation, we have returned 162 members, omit- 
 ting fractional parts, which operates as much against the 
 large counties as the small. Which shews us the number 
 each county would be entitled to individually, and the 27 
 counties collectively, would have 100, and the 35 would have 
 62. But, as we stand at present, the Eastern counties, with 
 a white population of 164,976, have a greater share in enact- 
 ing laws, than the Western counties have with 254,224. If 
 this, then, is consistent with the genius of republicanism, I 
 confess it is a political phenomenon hitherto unknown to me, 
 and if it is, 1 sincerely hope that I may never belong to that 
 elan. But it is stated by gentlemen of the opposition, that 
 representation ought to be apportioned upon the mixed prin- 
 ciple of po])ulation and wealth. In answer to this argument, 
 I say, already have we the wealth of the State sulliciently 
 represented in the House of Senate ; and, indeed, it appears 
 to me, that this is another aristocratic feature which lugged 
 itself into our Constitution. In the 7th section of the Consti- 
 tution it is expressly declared, that no person shall be entitled 
 to vote for a member of the Senate, unless he is possessed at 
 the same time, of 50 acres of land. 
 
 But it is also stated tiiat in the representation for Congress, 
 the black population is taken into consideration. This 
 is certainly true ; but I will ask the gentlemen that advance 
 tdiis, whether it was done from motives of equity, or motives 
 
37 
 
 of policy ? whether it w'as done from a conscientious belief 
 that they were entitled to representation, or from a know- 
 led.^e that tlie Southern States would not enter into a com- 
 pact, would not enter into a political union, without some 
 guarantee of this species of property ? If, then, this is quoted 
 as a precedent upholding the principle of mixed representa- 
 tion, I answer that that precedent had its origin in necessity ; 
 that it was founded, not upon political right, but rather poli- 
 tical ex])ediency ; that had we not had that provision ia 
 our Constitution, that that species of property, then held as 
 valuable, and in w'hich our wealth mostly consisted, would 
 ere this have been loaded with excise upon excise, to such a 
 degree as would have rendered them a burthen on our shoul- 
 ders. In this light do I view that clause, as a sine qua non 
 condition, as a kind of compromise between the Northern and 
 Southern States. 
 
 I do not wish here to be understood as disapproving of that 
 priiiciple in the federal government, for the situation of the 
 times rendered it indispensable — but I do not wish it quoted 
 as a principle upon wliich we are to build our political tenets 
 of right or wrong, unless it undergoes this explanation. It is 
 rather an appeal to our interest than to our judgment; it is 
 an indirect attack upon that part of our political rampart 
 which of all others is most vulnerable, viz. our avarice.. 
 
 But for the res})ect I have for the opinion I entertain of the 
 gentlemen of the opposition, w hich compels me to bow with 
 implicit confidence to their superior talents, w'e will see how' 
 that affects the matter under discu.ssion. We will see whe- 
 ther in point of federal numbers, or any other calculation, if 
 the scale does not preponderate to the West. 
 
 The federal population of this State is 551,007, which, if 
 we divide by the same number of representative.s, 186 will 
 give 2962, which, if we then divide into the federal popula- 
 tion of each county, will give the following result : 
 
 Anson 
 
 3 
 
 CabaiTus 
 
 2 
 
 Tyrrel 
 
 1 
 
 Wilkes 
 
 O 
 
 Ashe 
 
 1 
 
 Caswell 
 
 3 
 
 W'^ayne 
 
 2 
 
 Wake 
 
 o 
 
 Buncombe 
 
 3 
 
 Duplin 
 
 2 
 
 Hertford 
 
 2 
 
 Mecklenburg 
 
 4 
 
 Burke 
 
 4 
 
 Edgecomb 
 
 3 
 
 Haywood 
 
 1 
 
 Martin 
 
 1 
 
 Beaufort 
 
 2 
 
 Franklin 
 
 2 
 
 Iredell 
 
 3 
 
 Moore 
 
 2 
 
 Bladen 
 
 2 
 
 Guilford 
 
 4 
 
 Jones 
 
 1 
 
 Montgomery 
 
 2 
 
 Berde 
 
 2 
 
 Granville 
 
 4 
 
 Johnston 
 
 2 
 
 Northampton 
 
 3 
 
 Brunswick 
 
 1 
 
 Gates 
 
 1 
 
 Lenoir 
 
 1 
 
 Nash 
 
 2 
 
 Camden 
 
 1 
 
 Greene 
 
 1 
 
 Lincoln 
 
 5 
 
 Robeson 
 
 2 
 
 Cumberland 
 
 3 
 
 Hyde 
 
 1 
 
 Person 
 
 2 
 
 Rowan 
 
 i 
 
 Currituck 
 
 2 
 
 Halifax 
 
 4 
 
 Perquimons 
 
 2 
 
 Surry 
 
 rv 
 
 o 
 
 Carteret 
 
 1 
 
 New-Hanover 
 
 2 
 
 Rutherford 
 
 4 
 
 Stokes 
 
 4 
 
 Columbus 
 
 1 
 
 Onslow 
 
 1 
 
 Rockingham 
 
 3 
 
 Sampson 
 
 2 
 
 Chatham 
 
 3 
 
 Orange 
 
 7 
 
 Richmond 
 
 2 
 
 Washington 
 
 1 
 
 Chowan 
 
 1 
 
 Fitt 
 
 2 
 
 Randolph. 
 
 3 
 
 Warren 
 
 L 
 
 Craven 
 
 3 
 
 Pasquotank 
 
 2j 
 
 
 
 
 
38 
 
 Tlio above table retinais 151 members, and slicws that th« 
 twenty-seven westci'ii counties wliich now liave 81. are en- 
 title<l to 88, and the thirty-five eastern counties which have 
 105, ou.u,'!it to liave only 63. In this, as in the other table, 
 fractional jiarts are omitted. 
 
 Haviiii;,- now sufficiently proven the inequality of represen- 
 tation, not only on the basis of white population, but on the 
 princijile of population and wealth; 1 shall next proceed to 
 touch at a few of those points in our Constitution, w hich, in 
 my opinion need amendment. This I am under the necessity 
 of doina;, having been already anticipated in some of the re- 
 marks, that 1 w ished to suggest to tiiis committee,^ on this 
 occasion, and which it is w ith pleasure 1 have seen, have been 
 placed in a more advantageous position, than 1 could have 
 done myself. 
 
 It has been stated by the gentleman fi*oin Newbern, as a 
 proof of the excellency of the Constitution, under w hich we 
 live, that exiiericnce has tested its utility — that it has pro- 
 tected us for ncai' half a century, from convulsions without, 
 5ind intestine divisions within — that under its fostering hand, 
 iKive w e arisen to almost the pinnacle of fame. This is part- 
 ly true, but, still it does not prove that the. people of North- 
 Carolina do not labor under any inequality in their represen- 
 tation ; it does not prove tliat 2 and 2 are not 4. All this 
 might possibly have been attained under a government more 
 aristocratic than our own, and experience is about this day 
 to teach us the cause of its duiation ; it is about to shew 
 us, that mankind are ever more disposed to endure evils 
 whilst evils arc tolerable, than to resort to new and untried 
 projects. 
 
 The Constitution, in the 14th section, declares, that the 
 Senate and House of Commons sliail have power to ajipoint 
 the general and field officers of the militia. Of the improprie- 
 ty, of tiiis section, 1 trust every gentleman in this House will 
 concur with me. 
 
 Whci'.ever any power is taken out of the hands of the peo- 
 ple ami vested in any other tribunal, it is done upon the prin- 
 cij)!c that the exeirise of that power would be abused by the 
 body from whence it is take)!. 
 
 Let us see how far this, then, accords with the office i)i 
 point. Can any gentleman on this flooi* pretend to doubt, for 
 a moment, that the peo])le of North-Carolina are not better 
 cai'adde of choosi)ig their militia officers, than the legislative 
 body is ? Can it be coiijecturcd, that the difterent divisions 
 and brigades of the militia, arc not l•easonab!y supposed to bo 
 belti'r capable of judging of the (lualitications of the opposing 
 
39 
 
 candidates, tlian this Lei^islature is ? Besides, it is one of 
 the principles of a popular .^oveiMiinent, where the power is 
 vested in the people, and where the people claim to them- 
 seltes the privilege of exercising that power — ^tjiat merit — 
 that qualification — that private respectabilit}’ should he the 
 only passports to honor and preferment. hicli, then, are 
 most liable to disregard these requisitions, the legislative body 
 or the people. Let a man but strut the soldier, or ape the 
 hero, a few days, and any ()ffice which this body can bestowq 
 will be tlirown u}>on him. It is not that we make a wanton 
 abuse of our authority, but it is that we have not the oppor- 
 tunity of judging. If you want a stronger proof of this abuse, 
 turn your eyes to the melancholy, to the degrading state of 
 your militia. See if you cannot recognise among its officers, 
 some men witijout one ray of military science, without one 
 claim to private respectability. 
 
 Then belbre you can witlihold from the people the right of 
 electing their own militia officers, you must give some addi- 
 tional proof of the benefits resulting from the present mode of 
 election. 
 
 There are cases in which certain powers would be best to 
 be lodged in the breast of this legislative body. Such, for 
 example, as the Judiciary appointments. And this is for the 
 best of reasons, for the people collectively are not presumed 
 judges of their qualifications. But the question before us is 
 one in which they are the only judges, where the different 
 merit of the candidates is the subject of every day’s discus- 
 sion. If gentlemen doubt the proj)riety of this mode of elec- 
 tion, I would refer them to South-Carolina for an example, 
 to that state fi-om which we may draw many useful lessons. 
 There the people are trusted to elect their own ofiicers, and 
 they never yet have abused that trust. To such a pride is 
 military discipline carried in that State, that men of the great- 
 est wealth and highest respectability seek even subaltern 
 commands. 
 
 The next question to which I would call the attention of 
 this committee is the appointment of Judges. The 13th arti- 
 cle of the Constitution declares, that the General Assembly, 
 by joint ballot of both Houses, shall appoint Judges of the 
 Supreme Courts of Law and Equity. My objection to tliLs 
 section is not the mode of appointment, for I have before said 
 that is and ought to be vested in this legislative body. But 
 it is the difficulty of removing them from office in case of ina- 
 bility or any other sufficient cause. I confess that I here 
 recommend the innovation of an important principle ; and I 
 wish that my experience enabled me to speak with greater 
 
40 
 
 certainty. But when we want expei’ience we liave to apply 
 to precedent; we look to see; if others have ever realized tlie 
 evils which we sti’ongly anticipate. In looking over the Con- 
 stitutions of tlie different States, we find that Vermont has not 
 only gone so far as to declare that no Judge should retain his 
 office after having attained the age of 70 years, but she has 
 declared that no Sheriff should ; considering that some limit- 
 ed time should be placed, at which it is reasonable enough 
 to su[!pose that they are incapable of discharging the duties 
 of the office. Kentucky can tell you in the 3d section of the 
 4th article of her Constitution, that in her State the Judges 
 hold their olficcs, as in ours, during good behavior ; but that 
 they, for any reasonable cause which shall not be sufficient 
 ground of impeachment, shall be removed from their offices 
 by the Governor, upon the address of two-thirds of both hou- 
 ses. And Kentucky can also tell you that it affects not their 
 independence. 
 
 On former occasions, the election of Chief Magistrate has 
 been urged, and I can see no impropriety in that being left to 
 the people. For a free and enlightened people to assemble 
 together and deliberately choose fi om among their citizens 
 some one to fill the executive chair is at all times a crisis of 
 re|)ub!icanism truly enviable. 
 
 The President of the United States is elected by the people, 
 and by those very men whom you refuse the right of electing 
 their own Governor. And if I mistake not, every State in 
 the United States, with the exception of five or six, elect their 
 own Governors. And are we so basely ignorant that w’^e 
 cannot be allowed this privilege ? I trust not. It is true it 
 may be said, that a tone has been given to that election, that 
 renders it little mol'e than nominal ; but let it be recollected, 
 that the fountain may be pure, although the stream may have 
 been polluted, and no matter from what source the pollution 
 comes, whether it fulminates from the dictatorial nod of a 
 caucus, or reveiberates from the still more dangerous spirit 
 of party, it ought not to destroy the correctness of the princi- 
 ple which has been bequeathed to us by our ancestors. 
 
 If none of these reasons have any influence with the gentle- 
 men of this House ; if a complete demonstration of the ine- 
 <juality of representation is treated by them with a sneer of 
 indifference; if you are predetermined to close every avenue 
 to your understanding, is no weight due to the opinion of a 
 respectable part of your citizens ? Do they come forward 
 with an imaginary evil, saying such and such exist, without 
 being able to prove it. No; no such thing. The very ground 
 on which they have taken an immoveable stand, is inequality 
 
41 
 
 ( 
 
 orropresentation ; and we call upon you to prove to the con- 
 trary. Where, then, is the impropriety of recommending it 
 to the people ? Are they less enlightened, or less patriotic 
 than those that framed the Constitution ? No, I trust that 
 the same spirit which animated that immortal Hero in the 
 revolution, whose portrait graces our Hall, is warmly burn- 
 ing in the bosoms of his sons. 
 
 Mr. J. D. JoifEs could but admire the zeal and perseve- 
 rance of the gentlemen who advocated the resolutions on the 
 table, in so often obtruding them on the notice of the Legisla- 
 ture, after their having been so repeatedly rejected ; it is a 
 zeal worthy of a better cause. Did the same spirit manifest 
 itself for compensating public officers, and promoting works 
 of general public utility, North-Carolina might vie with the 
 proudest of her sister States ; we would not so long have had 
 our feelings outraged by seeing the price of blood resorted to 
 for paying the prosecuting officers of the State ; and a petty 
 tax on auctions made a revenue for compensating one class of 
 Judges, while the other, literally the hack-horses of the pub- 
 lic, is without any adequate compensation at all. 
 
 It was, perhaps, his misfortune to entertain very serious 
 doubts, concerning the good policy, or the beneficial results 
 to be calculated on from the passage of the resolutions on the 
 table. To his mind, they were replete with mischief. To his 
 mind, they box'e within themselves, principles at war w’ith the 
 well-being of the community ; that they were calculated to 
 jeopardize the best ixiterests of the country, the safety and 
 happiness of the people. 
 
 It is an old, and well approved maxim too, said Mr. J. to 
 let well enough alone ; or, to borrow the language of the ve- 
 nerable Jefferson, just quoted by the gentleman from Rich- 
 mond, (Mr. Leak) “ it is better to suffer even evils, while 
 evils are sufferable, than to right ourselves by abolishing the 
 forms to which w e are accustomed.” After having progress- 
 ed thus far safely, and he might add, happily, under our ex- 
 isting Constitution, it really seemed to him a species of 
 phrenzy, exceeding madness, to attempt to new model the 
 Constitution at this time. The business of renovating a Gov- 
 ernment, was a task to which few were competent; it should 
 be resorted to upon the most pressing necessity only ; it should 
 be made tlie extreme medicine of a State, the last appeal of 
 oppressed humanity. But, Sir, to apply this harsh remedy, 
 this strong dose of mercury sublimate, on tiivial occasions, 
 could not be justified on any principles of sound policy. 
 
 
Tiic evils complained of in the resolutions, are but of arjt- 
 ideal, imaginai7 nature ; they appeared to him to have growft 
 out of that restlessness of disposition inherent in our nature^ 
 that fomhiess for change and innovation incident to t!ie clia- 
 racters of some men. It is Immaii nature never to he ac- 
 quainted with its ow n happiness : in the absence of real 
 afflictions, we go in searcli of fancied ills. Tiie Constitution 
 and the Government under wliich we live, are as mild as 
 meekness could w isli them ; and yet to licar gentlemen speak 
 of their grievances, you would really supj)ose, that tliis was 
 not the mild and i-ational Government of North-Carolina, hut 
 the meridian of Asia and of Asiatic tyranny. 
 
 What are the mighty evils complained of? The most pro- 
 minent among them is tlie inequality in the representation of 
 the counties. We are told tliat the great county of Rowan, 
 the Monsieur Tonson of the Legislature, magnified in impor- 
 tance almost to the dominions of the Great Mogul ; we are 
 told. Sir, that this mammoth county sends but three members 
 to the Legislature, while each trifling county in the East 
 sends as many, not adverting that they liave little counties 
 also in tlie West ; for it is equally a fact of record, that they 
 have counties in tiiat section of tlie State, so thin in popula- 
 tion, and lean in revenue, that they do not pay into the cof- 
 fers of the treasury enough to conqiensate their members of 
 Assembly. 
 
 Besides, the balance of population in favor of the West is 
 not so very frightful 5 and when we take into view the com- 
 parative wealtli of tlie East, the large amount of revenue paid 
 into the treasury, the inequality hetween the importance of 
 tlie tw o sections of the State is not very great, and he did not 
 think gentlemen should envy tlie Eastern members the little 
 weight they had in the Legislature. 
 
 But without insisting that wealth w as any basis of repre- 
 sentation at all ; even admitting all that gentlemen contend 
 for ; even conceding there is the inequality conijdained of, 
 still lie denied it as a just ground for new-modelling the Con- 
 stitution. 
 
 Is there not, asked Mr. J. a greater inequality in the repre- 
 sentation to the national Legislature ? Do not the petty states 
 of Delaware and Rhode-Island send as many Senators to 
 Congress as the great States of Virginia, Penn.sylvania, or 
 of New-York ? If the evil he tolerated in the General Gov- 
 ernment, much more is it to be suffered in a State Govern- 
 ment. It is impossible, in the nature of things, to apportion 
 political justice with matliematioal ])recision ; wc cannot 
 weigh it out in scales ; tliere must he some preponderance^ 
 
43 
 
 some inequality in the surface. Nature herself, the greal 
 mass of wisdom, is full of ii*regularities. 
 
 E\ ery member of this committee must know, that the pow- 
 ers to be delegated to this body are of a dictatorial kind, that 
 they are above law and above the Constitution ; but w'e are 
 told there is no danger that they will exceed the bounds of 
 pj-opiiety. Sir, we have no security foi* this ; can gentle- 
 men enter into a bond obligatory to the people, binding upon 
 the Convention ? Will any man dare to lay his finger upon a 
 limit, and say to them, as God said to the waters, “ Thus fai‘ 
 shall ye go and no farther ?” No, Sir ; once constitute them, 
 and they are supreme ; once organize them, and no man daro 
 prescribe them limits. 
 
 What is the temper, Mr. J. asked, of the present time ? 
 Will that temper justify a resort to the measure ? He thought 
 not. When our Constitution was formed, there was no talk 
 of Eastern and of Western interest ; our w ise forefathers took 
 a comprehensive, an impartial view of the whole ground, they 
 therefore formed a Constitution to suit the whole people, and 
 not a section of them. Not so now. Ill blood and jealousies 
 are stirring among us ; every member will carry into this 
 Convention, as into a common stock, his private passions and 
 his ])rivate j)artialities ; each section of the State will have 
 its local views to compass ; the West will be arrayed against 
 the East, and tlie East against the West, and out of these 
 jai-ring, discordant elements, what kind of a*compound of a 
 Constitution was to be protluced, he was unable to tell ; but 
 feared the birth w ould be of the monster kind. 
 
 If, said Mr. J. the East has the exercise of the political 
 power of the State, it must be acknowledged we use it with 
 moderation. HaAe the Western gentlemen evidenced the 
 same disposition ? Would they be equally moderate had they 
 the predominance ? He doubted it. For, Sir, said he, even 
 in this debate, with all their caution, unfortunate expressions 
 have fallen fi-om them, which sufiBciently betray how little 
 they are disposed to lenity in the exercise of power. Is it 
 not common talk, that unless we surrender our opijiions and 
 our judgments to these mighty men of the West, these sw ord 
 and buckler Myrmidons of the Mountains, that some modern 
 Tamerlane or Atilla from among them, would rise up and 
 overwhelm the devoted land of the East? That they wmuld 
 literally. Sir, sw'eep us from the tombs of our fathers ? Really, 
 Mr. Chainnan, said Mr. J. menaces of this kind are less cal- 
 culated to make an impression on the Eastern section of the 
 State, than arguments which have more temjierance and mo- 
 deration stamped upon the face of them. Menaces of this 
 
44 
 
 kind, Sir, are calculated to iri'itatc, not to sooth ; instead of 
 mifigatint;’, tliey increase contumacy. It is an old and some- 
 wliat musty, pi overb too, that “ a child may lead a horse to 
 water, but ten men cannot make him drink,” so it may be 
 with us. Sir ; vve may be persuaded into tliis measure, we 
 cannot be coerced ; we may be led, not driven. A little 
 more tlian twelve months ago, he could not in his heart 
 have believed, that there existed in tlie State of North- 
 Carolina, a man so utterly lost to its true interests — so utter- 
 ly dead to all sense of moderation, as to suggest even the 
 possibility that this question would be staked upon so ruinous 
 an issue. I say. Sir, said Mr. J. I could not in ray heart 
 have believed it ; until about that period, my eye caught a 
 paragrajib extracted fi'om a Western paper, where an anony- 
 mous writer calls upon the people of the West to take up 
 arms against the people of the East, and to dragoon them in- 
 to a compliance with their measures', if other means will not 
 prevail, and invoked the spirit of ’76 to aid them. He would 
 ask whether it was not the spirit of an incendiary, who ap- 
 plied a torch at midnight to his neighbour’s dwelling, of an 
 arch-fiend of bell, who delights to see brothers sheathing their 
 sw'ords in each other’s bowels, rather than of ’ 76 , which pro- 
 duced such a publication ? It is profanation. Sir, against the 
 purest spirit that ever was an inmate of the bosom of man ; it 
 is profaning the spirit which built up the very Constitution 
 which we are striving to pull to pieces, and to scatter to the 
 four winds of Heaven. Sir, said Mr. J. the framers of that 
 instrument were patriots, friends to the liberties of mankind. 
 They were men who had been just smarting under the lash of 
 European oppression — they were men who felt for their 
 posterity, what a father feels for the child of his bosom. In 
 the genius and spirit of liberty, they formed that charter of 
 our rights ; they handed it down to us as a rich inheritance, 
 which we, like prodigals, would wish to squander, and to sub- 
 stitute- — What ? — no man knows. The womb of time can 
 alone disclose the birth. But to say the most of it ; it is a 
 substitution of our own shoi't-sighted views — our interested lo- 
 cal jvrejudices, for the venerable and impartial work of our 
 forefathers. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, said Mr. J. I am not one of those who en- 
 tertain such a superstitious veneration for the works of anti- 
 quity, as to deem them too holy to be touched by the hand 
 of man. Yet, Sir, I really do entertain for them such a vene- 
 ration, that unless I see vei-y flagrant abuses growing out of 
 them, unless I see them entailing curses where benefits were 
 intended, I am the last man in the world that .would lend a 
 hand to their subversion. 
 
45 
 
 Feeling, and believing therefore, as he did, on this vnonaen- 
 tous question, that the adoption of the resolutions was calcu- 
 lated to jeopardize our best interests ; that tlie evils com- 
 plained of were but of an imaginary nature ; tliat the powers 
 to be delegated to this Convention were of too alarming a na- 
 ture to be entrusted to men, except called for by the most 
 pressing necessity, he felt it a paramount, an imperious du- 
 ty to give his vote against the Resolutions. 
 
 Mr. Mebane (the Speaker) said, it was his misfortune, 
 whenever he rose to address the house, to experience the 
 greatest difficulty, frpm being seldom called upon to address 
 a public body ; and, on the present occasion, he felt more than 
 ordinary embarrassment on account of the importance of the 
 question and his great inability to do justice to the subject 
 under debate. He felt embarrassed on another account. The 
 gentlemen who had preceded him in support of the Resolu- 
 tions before the committee, had taken up the ground so com- 
 pletely as to have left little for liim to say. They had clear- 
 ly proved to his view, that our present Representation is un- 
 equal, unjust and anti-republican. 
 
 t Mr. M. said he felt discouraged on another account ; that he 
 was addressing gentlemen, a majority of whom have their 
 reason blinded by what they conceive to be their interest, who 
 feel power and forget right, and wlio fear the approach of the 
 time when the Sceptre is to depart from Judah. He of course 
 could not expect any thing he might be able to say would have 
 any influence upon them, although Jie would wish to hope bet- 
 ter things, and that Eastern gentlemen would feel disposed 
 to observe the golden rule of “ doing to others as they would 
 tliat others should do to them.” Tlie friends of the present 
 proposition had been charged with bringing forwai'd a mea- 
 sure calculated to produce anarchy and confusion in the coun- 
 try. He could not help thinking, however, that gentlemen 
 viewed the subject through a distorted medium. 
 
 Mr. M. did not intend to detain the committee many 
 minutes, as he would not follow his friends in the calculations 
 which they had laid before tbe committee. He would state a 
 few circumstances to shew, what had already been more fully 
 stated, that our Representation is unequal, unjust and anti- 
 republican. 
 
 Take into view, said he, the whole population of the State 
 and it will be seen that sixteen or eighteen of the largest 
 counties have one-half of this population. No matter in what 
 part of the State they are situated, the citizens of North-Ca- 
 rolina having equal rights. And yet these Counties send no 
 
46 
 
 more Representotivcs to the General Assembly than the same 
 number of the the smallest Counties in the State. Is this just 
 or equal ? 
 
 A]^ain, as to the expences of the Government. The com- 
 mittee had been told, that the Representatives of each Coun- 
 ty in the General Assembly, together with the expences of 
 Judiciary, &c. cost the State about S700 a year. It will be 
 found, on reference to the Comptroller’s statement, that many 
 of tlie small Counties do not pay near this amount of taxes 
 into the Public Treasury. Who, then, pays the residue for 
 them ? It is the large Counties which pay it. Is this just 
 or equal ? 
 
 It will be found, that one-half the Counties in the State, 
 I mean the small Counties, do not contain one-third of the 
 whole population, while the other half contain upwards of 
 two-thirds. Yet each County has the same Representation 
 in the Assembly. Is it not right tliat a majority should rule ? 
 Yet in this case, the minoidty rules. One-third can govern 
 two-thirds. Rowan is equal in population to six or seven of 
 the small Counties, and Orange is not much less, and they 
 pay taxes in proportion. — And yet each of these small Coun- 
 ties send as many members to this house as Rowan or Orange* 
 Is this fair or equal ? 
 
 It appeared to Mr. M. to be useless to pi’oduce arguments 
 to prove things which are so self-evident ; and it must be in- 
 terest, or something else, which prevented the subject from 
 being viewed in its proper light. 
 
 It had been said, that the present time is improper for cal- 
 ling a Convention ; and alarming forebodings had been made 
 of the evils wdiich w'ould probably gro\v out of such a mea- 
 sure. All which he considered as devoid of foundation. 
 
 Something like a menace from tlie West had been alluded 
 to — that the Western people wa)uld rush from the mountains 
 and crush the people of the East. Gentlemen may have seen 
 in a newspaper, some such anonymous piece ; but whoever 
 might have widtten it, he was not a good citizen ; but far 
 from it. No, said Mr. M. however much the people of the 
 West desire a revision of the Constitution, they will never 
 resort to other than fair and honorable means to effect their 
 purpose. You wall never sec Mountain Men in Arms, except 
 it be to meet an Enemy: If such a])pcars, they will alw'ays 
 be ready to fly to the defence of tlieir Eastern brethren. 
 
 Mr. M. would have been pleased that this question could 
 have been viewed in its proper light, w'itliout reference to 
 either Eastern or Western interest, that every part of the 
 State might have obtained that just and equal Representation 
 
?n the Government to which they ii: c entitled. He despaired, 
 however, at present, of succeeding in his wishes. 
 
 Mr. Hillman was mnvilling to consume much of tiie time 
 of tlie committee, but he owed it to himself and his constitu- 
 ents, on so important a subject, to assign some of the mo- 
 tives which would govern liis vote, and to reply to some of 
 the arguments which had been offered in favor of the resolu- 
 tions on the table. 
 
 The gentleman from Salisbury had said, that our present 
 Constitution was imperfect, and tliat considering the inaus- 
 picious circumstances under which it was framed, and the 
 unfavorable period for deliberations of that kind, it was a 
 wonder it was not more so. ' He thought differently. It was 
 framed by patriots who had just broken the yoke of despo- 
 tism, who were pui-e from the revolutionary struggle which 
 ushered in the independence of the country; and who, there- 
 fore, knew well how to value the principles of civil liberty. 
 Every memorial presented to the Hritisli Throne or Parlia- 
 ment, about that time, shewed how well they were acquainted 
 with their political rights. How could it have been other- 
 wise, asked Mr. H. when the very cause in which they w ere 
 engaged, had for its objects the establishineut of the indepen- 
 dence of a people, the acknowledgment of the rights of a na- 
 tion ? A struggle, which, if it had proved unsuccessful, 
 would have I'cndered all who had embarked in it rebels^, and 
 exposed them to the penalties of the law. Nothing but the 
 most perfect knowledge of their rights, the most thorough con- 
 viction of the injuries they had sustained, could have induced 
 them to throw' off the yoke and incur such dangers. Napo- 
 leon was not more anxious to make his army familiar with 
 military tactics and the art of war, than the people of this 
 6ounti-y were, at that time, to become acquainted witii the 
 principles of civil liberty and the unalienable rights of man. 
 One of the most distinguished members of the British Parlia- 
 ment, at that time, did not hesitate to say, that thei*e w^ere no 
 people in any part of the world, who understood their rights 
 as well as the people of America. There were, then, no par- 
 ties; there was no such thing as sectional feeling — familiar 
 with the repeated and continued encroachments of power, and 
 having suffered much and suffered long in the struggle, they 
 knew well how to guard their riglits and protect the liberties 
 of the citizen. 
 
 But the gentleman from Salisbury has intimated, that the 
 patriots w'bo framed our constitution still felt an attachment 
 to the old government ; and to prove this position, he havS 
 
48 
 
 lead (IS un oxli-act Iroui the minutes of their proceeding's at 
 llalilax. It will be recollected by the coinmittce, that the 
 contest, even at that time, was somewhat doubtful. Consi- 
 dering tlie doubtfulness of the contest, and the many delicate 
 and tender ties which existed between the people of this and 
 the mother country, it is not a matter of very great surprize 
 that the jieople of this country should have been satisfied, with 
 a recognition of their rights by Great-Britain, to have remained 
 attached to that country. It was, howevei-, an attachment to 
 the ])eople to whom they were connected by the ties of feeling, 
 of affinity and of blood, rather than any attachment for the 
 government, which they felt. Docs the gmitleman mean by 
 such an insinuation to raise a prejudice against the Consti- 
 tution ? Where is the feature in it which will warrant such 
 a charge ? Our bill of rights, to be sure, is nearly a copy 
 from the Declaration of Rights of Great-Britain — and where 
 is a better? But is there any thing in our government which 
 savours of British attachment ? Have we, as in England, an 
 hereditary executive and peerage? On the contrary, our Go- 
 vernors arc elected annually ; our Senators are chosen for the 
 same period by freeholders ; and our Commonei's by every 
 man who is subject to pay taxes ; and the sessions of our Le- 
 gislatures arc held annually. No people could have been 
 placed in more independent circumstances than were our fore- 
 fathers at the formation of the Constitution. Having thrown 
 off the British yoke, they were at full liberty to form a new 
 system of government on correct principles. This Constitu- 
 tion has another recommendation. It has the test of forty 
 years experience, during which time, the State has flou- 
 rished and been happy without altering it in a single feature. 
 How is it with regard to our laws ? Is it not the business of 
 our session to repeal what a former one has enacted, and for 
 the next succeeding one to re-enact what the preceding one 
 has repealed ? If so, wffiat evidence have we that our Conven- 
 tion would not be composed of materials similar to those which 
 compose our General Assemblies. I should tremble for the 
 State, if its Constitution were to be new-moulded by the pre- 
 sent General Assembly. It would partake of all the imper- 
 fections of our legislation, and every few years a Conven- 
 tion would be necessary for the purpose of amending these 
 modern improvements. He would, therefore, prefer not to 
 meddle with the Constitution. It might have its imperfec- 
 tions, but he “ would rather bear the ills we now endure, than 
 rush to others which we know not of,” 
 
 The gentleman from Rockingham (Mr. Morchead,) tells 
 us thi'ro is a vast difference between the large and small States 
 
49 
 
 under the Constitution of the United States, and the large 
 and small counties under the Constitution of this State — ^that 
 the same reason does not apply to the counties as to the 
 States, because the latter are sovereign, the former are not. 
 Mr. H. thought differently. Both wei*e governed by the same 
 motives, to wit, self-preservation and self-defence. Previous 
 to the Revolution mider the old colonial government, the re- 
 presentation was according to counties. The Constitution 
 being a matter of mutual conciliation and of compromise, the 
 smaller counties were as anxious to preserve their integrity 
 and their influence in the State as the smaller States were to 
 preserve their sovereignty and their weight among the United 
 States. He thought the gentleman had furnished the answer to 
 his own argument, when he told us that the Legislature had 
 power to “ new mould, to lop off, and to annihilate, the coun- 
 ties at pleasure.” It was to prevent the larger counties, like 
 Aaron’s rod, from swallowing all the smaller ones, that in- 
 duced them to insist upon this principle of representation ; 
 and he thought the argument of the gentleman but illy calcu- 
 lated to induce the smaller counties to give up a principle sa 
 important to their safety. 
 
 Mr. H. admitted that there was some inequality in the re?- 
 presentation of the people of this State ; but he denied that 
 this inequality was either unjust or anti-republican. The 
 justice of the principle depended on the nature of the compact. 
 In 2i govenvment of compromise, there could surely be no injus- 
 tice in each county having the weight which it had been agreed 
 it should exercise in the legislative councils. As it regarded 
 the term republican, it was a kind of relative expression. It 
 did not follow of course, tliat because these was not an exact 
 equality of representation that therefore the Constitution was 
 anti-republican. Will any man say, asked Mr. H. that the 
 Constitution of the United States is unjust or anti-republican? 
 He presumed not ; and yet the inequality under our Consti- 
 tution is not greater than it is under the Constitution of the 
 United States. The weight which is given to the smaller 
 counties is not greater in proportion than the weight which, 
 is given to the smaller states. 
 
 The gentleman from Rockingham has laid before the com- 
 mittee, a calculation of the white population of the Western 
 and Eastern counties, and also of the federal numbers ; ac- 
 cording to which, he gave a majority to the West. Gientle- 
 men had also made calculations to shew that the West paid 
 more taxes than tlie East. Their statements were calculated 
 to mislead. It would be found, upon examination, that gen- 
 tlemen had taken Granville and Bladen into their calculation 
 
50 
 
 Ibi* tlie West, and had left oat Wake. Heretofore, Gran- 
 ville, Wake and Bladen, had been considered as central coun- 
 ties, and therefore left out of the calculation of Eastern and 
 Western streng-tli. This would make a very considerable 
 difference in the result of their calculations. Mr. H. could 
 see no good reason, why, as these counties generally voted 
 witli the East upon this subject, and were opposed to a change 
 of the Constitution, they should not be taken from the West 
 and added to the East, in the calculation. If this were done, 
 there would be a vast difference in tlie result. Although the 
 white population of the West, might be greater than that of 
 the East ; yet if federal numbers and property were taken 
 into the estimate, there would be a corresponding ascenden- 
 cy in the East, which would balance the majority of white 
 population in the West. The objects of government, being 
 the protection of property, as well as the security of the li- 
 berty of the citizens, it has been generally conceded that the 
 basis of rej)resentatinn ought to be according to population 
 and taxation. 
 
 Gentlemen, in order to shew the great inequality of repre- 
 sentation, even upon this basis, have taken some of the larger 
 Eastern counties, with some of the Western — Halifax and 
 Rowan, for instance, and compared them with Columbus, 
 Jones, and other counties. If tlie large counties in the East, 
 are satisfied with the present Constitution, wliy, asked Mr. 
 Jl. will gentlemen attempt to force upon them a change ? 
 
 Mr. H. thought there was much weiglit in tlie remark of 
 the gentleman from Halifax, (Mr. Alston,) that wherever 
 you find a large county, you generally find smaller ones 
 near it, whose representatives having the same interests, the 
 same feelings, and frequently the same connections, to repre- 
 sent generally, vote alike, upon all subjects which come be- 
 fore the Legislature. The interests of the larger counties, are 
 therefore, almost as much protected as they would be, if their 
 representatives were apportioned according to their relative 
 wealth and jiopulation. He agreed also pc'rfectly in opinion 
 with the gentleman from Wilmington, (Mr. Jones,) that it 
 w as impossible to weigh out political justice, in exact mathe- 
 matical scales. If this could be done, it would be necessary 
 to apportion the weight not only of each individual county, 
 but of each individual member of society. Viewing the sub- 
 ject with a mathematical eye, it is as unjust that the indivi- 
 dual w ho is possessed of scarcely any property, should have 
 the same weight in the political scale, as an individual who 
 is possessed of millions; as it would be to allow Columbus 
 the same weight with Rowan — but we are under the necessi- 
 
51 
 
 ty of submitting to inequalities of this kind. Some standard 
 must be found, and no better one can be pointed out, than 
 that which the Constitution has erected. 
 
 Tiie eentleman from Salisbury, has another objection to 
 the pr^nt Constitution. It produces an aristocracy of the 
 smaller counties, and gives them the power of exercising un- 
 due influence over the larger ones ! An aristocracy of a few 
 poor, insignificant counties ! Columbus is to tyrannize over 
 Rowan ! Who Mr. H. asked, had ever before heard of an 
 aristocracy of the peasantry, over the wealth of the country ? 
 He had been taught to believe that wherever an aristocracy 
 existed, it generally possessed the means of carrying ite 
 views into execution. He has thought it one of the qualities 
 of poverty to be sometimes dependent on wealth, and it was 
 the character of power to encroach upon the- weak and the 
 defenceless. 
 
 But the Gentleman from Rockingham has discovered 
 dangers from an aristocracy of a different kind. He says, if 
 slave property be represented in the House of Commons, and 
 land in the Senate, it is giving an undue weight to property, 
 and will create an aristocracy dangerous to the country. So 
 that gentlemen go to different extremes. But he believed it 
 an axiom so well settled, and so generally conceded, that taxa- 
 tion and property ought to be taken into the calculation in 
 fixing the basis of representation, that he did not deem it 
 necessary to trouble the Committee with any remarks of his 
 upon that point. 
 
 But some gentlemen seem disposed, in the new Constitu- 
 tion, if such is to be formed, not to respect property at all, 
 but to fix the representation according to population alone. 
 Mr. H. had an exalted opinion of gentlemen from the West. 
 They were, generally speaking, honorable and independent 
 men, and he had been proud to vote with them on those sub- 
 jects where the best interests of the State were at stake : hut, 
 he hoped gentlemen would pardon him for believing, if popu- 
 lation alone were made the basis of representation, that the 
 slaves of the East would pay most of the taxes into the pub- 
 lic treasury. The majority would have the power of so or- 
 dering things ; and if they had the power, it was idle to say 
 they would not abuse it. Whenever an extreme case shall 
 occur, they will use this power, and use it oppressively. 
 The Eastern counties already, paid more than their propor- 
 tion of taxes. The power, however, is now pretty equally 
 balanced, according to this combined principle of population, 
 taxation and property, and he preferred it should remain so# 
 
52 
 
 But we are told, said Mr. H. tliat the importance of the 
 Western counties is daily advancing, and that when the im- 
 provements are effected, whieh are now going on in the seve- 
 ral rivei-s, and the produce can be gotten to market, it^dll be- 
 come more prosperous and wealthy. It will be time enough 
 to mould our Constitution to this state of things when it shall 
 actually take place. He would venture however, to predict, 
 that the Eastern part of the State is destined to an improve- 
 ment, perhaps, equal to the West, from draining their 
 marshes and opening their country, which not only increases 
 its fertility, but renders it more healthy. There is no part 
 of the counti'y in which they have greater inducerhents to 
 make improvements in the science of Agriculture, than our 
 brethren in the East have. It will be time enough, however, 
 to provide for this state of things, when it shall hap]>en. 
 
 Ml-. H. Mould make one remark on the Resolution, which 
 directs the manner in which the people are to signify their 
 will in relation to a Convention. It proposes that the ques- 
 tion shall be decided by the voters for Members of the House 
 of Commons writing on each of their tickets, “ Convention” 
 or “ No Convention.” This would be losing sight entirely 
 of the combined principle— and the propriety of calling a 
 Convention would be decided by population alone. He M ould 
 make one or tM O statements, draM n from tbe last Census, to 
 shew what would be the effect of this vote, and how complete- 
 ly tbe principle before-mentioned, would be departed from. 
 He Mould suppose that each white person and person of co- 
 lor, in each county, were entitled to vote ; for although that 
 w'as not the case, and the number m'Iio are actually entitled 
 to vote, is much smaller, .as the proportionable diminution 
 would be about the same in each county, it would be suffi- 
 cient for his present purpose, and would save the necessity of 
 a calculation, Mdiich he had not noM- time to make. Tak- 
 ing this then as a data, merely to illustrate his idea upon the 
 subject, it will be found that the county of Burke has an ag- 
 gregate population of 13,411, and having only 1,917 slaves, 
 would give 11,594 votes, or in that proportion ^ while the 
 county of Granville has an aggregatepopulation of 18,222, and 
 would, upon the same pinnciple, give only 9,151 votes. The 
 county of Buncombe, with an aggregate population of only 
 10,542, would give 9,500 votes, while the county of Halifax 
 with an aggregate population of 17,237, M ould give only 7,787 
 votes. These calculations, as M'ell as many others which 
 might be made, prove very satisfactorily to my mind, that 
 upon the question, whether a Convention should be called or 
 not, the principle so (pueb contended for in the course of this 
 
53 
 
 discussion, would be completely conceded by adopting the 
 Resolution on your table ; and that an undue advantage 
 would be given to the Western over the Eastern counties. 
 Again, when this Convention is called, and the Legislature 
 undertake to j)rescribe- the number each county shall send, 
 what is to prevent their sending more ? When you once call 
 a Convention, that Convention is omnipotent. The Legisla- 
 ture can set no bounds to their authority. 
 
 In concluding, Mr. H. said, much feeling had been brought 
 to bear upon this subject. Gentlemen had discussed it as if it 
 were entirely an Eastern and Western question ; and a mere 
 contest about power. He felt no particular bias either in fa- 
 vor of the East or the West. The county which he had the 
 honor, in part, to represent, was a central county : it was 
 also a populous and wealthy county, and its situation would 
 not be much affe.( ted whether the Resolutions passed, or were 
 rejected. The citizens of Granville have no jealousy of their 
 neighbors ; they know their rights, and place too high a va- 
 lue upon the intei-est which they have in the present Consti- 
 tution, to be willing to jeopai'dize it for they know not what. 
 It appeared to him, that it was incumbent on the advocates 
 of a Convention, to shew that the present Constitution has 
 not only imperfections on paper — that it wants proportion and 
 symmetry, but to shew that some real practical evils have 
 been experienced by the people, from those defects. If they 
 can shew that the rights of any person hav^e been sacrificed, 
 or that any person has a claim upon the State which has been 
 unheard and unattended to, and that this is the fault of the 
 Constitution and not of the Legislature, then there would be 
 some plausibility in urging the adoption of the measure be- 
 fore us. But, though gentlemen had been called upon re- 
 peatedly during this discussion, they have not been able to 
 point to a single grievance — a single practical evil, which 
 has resulted fiom even the inequality of representation, so 
 much complained of ; he took it for granted that none existed, 
 except the want of a little more power. 
 
 Sir, said Mr. H. when we are about to call a Conv^ention 
 to amend our Constitution, it should be recollected that a di- 
 versity of opinion exists here and elsewhere, as to the amend- 
 ments which it is proper to make. Some are for making 
 white population alone j some, federal numbers — and others, 
 the combined principle, the basis of representation. Some 
 are for electing our Governors, Sheriffs, Clerks, ^c. by the 
 people — others, for making the Judges dependant on the Le- 
 gislature, and removeable at pleasure, upon tlie v ote of a cer- 
 tain number. In this wild rage for improvement, while the 
 
54 
 
 Convention are undertaking to amend its imperfections, wliat 
 senil ity liave we tliat they will not fritter aw'ay every valua- 
 ble feature of the Constitution. Mr. 11. would not deny the 
 right of the people to amend the Constitution froip time to 
 time ; but the Resolutions on the table, called upon us to 
 pi ouounce the, Constitution so perfectly defective, so rotten 
 in principle, so unequaU unjust and anti-republican, that they 
 ought to lay violent hands on it. Whenever an actual ne- 
 cessity shall exist, the people w'ill assert their power and ap- 
 ply the remedy. He did not believe the sentiment expi’essed 
 in the Resolutions w^as correct, and therefore, could not vote 
 for them. He thought the voire of prudence wmuld say to 
 the people, as you have enjoyed your rights uninterruptedly 
 for upwards of forty years under the present Constitution, 
 and have not a single actual grievance to complain of, you 
 ought not to consent to subvert it. 
 
 Mr. Stkange observed, that he hoped the committee w^oul J 
 not he alarmed : he would occupy their attention but a few 
 minutes. He had intended to have taken no part in the de- 
 bate, as he believed that every member came to that house 
 with a determination to vote as his individual interest led 
 him ; he would therefore as soon expect to move the State 
 from its foundations by the explosion of a pop-gun, as by ar- 
 gument to change the vote of a single individual on the com- 
 mittee ; for interest presents a shield as impregnable to ar- 
 gument, as that of the mighty Greek to the weapons of his 
 enemies. 
 
 Mr. S. thought the true question before the committee bad 
 not been fairly stated and met. Enquiries have been made 
 vvhether any grievances have been experienced under the pre- 
 sent system. It apjieared to him, that it would be the princi- 
 pal objects, and perhaps the only ones, of the proposed Con- 
 vention, to enquire into the grievances occasioned by the de- 
 fects in our present Constitution, and to recommend measures 
 suitable for their remedy. The inquiry is, therefore, at this 
 period, premature. 
 
 Gentlemen have said mucli of the evils that must necessa- 
 rily flow from calling a Convention, wdiich he considered as 
 without foundation. They speak of it as though, by the call 
 of a Convention, we should be turned loose into the wild and 
 trackless desart of political experiment ; that we should be 
 savage and lawless, as man is found to be where the bonds 
 of society have never been imposed. But Mr. S. consi- 
 dered the Constitution of the United States as the polar 
 star vyhich, liowcvcr we might he tossed about upon the 
 
55 
 
 wild and tempestuous ocean of political experiment, will 
 exentually serve to guide us safely into a haven at least 
 as commodious as that in which we are now moored. The 
 casquet of eloquence has been torn open and its various 
 jewels scattered abroad, to dazzle and allure us from the true 
 question, by exciting our alarm, and enlisting our feelings. 
 He would venture to assert, that whenever a Convention is 
 called, nothing like the rage and turbulence of j)assion will be 
 seen in it ; not a blast will pass over it to ruifle the delibera- 
 tive calmness of the scene ; it will be composed of materials 
 above the influence of sectional interest and individual feeling. 
 
 The question before the committee has iinpro|)ei-ly been 
 made one of conflicting interest between the Eastern and 
 Western counties of the State ; whei-eas it should be, and 
 really is, one of alleged injustice between the lai-ger and 
 smaller counties. There are small counties in the West, as 
 well as in the East, who have as much political power as the 
 larger counties. This is unjust ; and it is tlie duty of every 
 honest man, every lover of justice, to do all in his power to 
 remedy the evil, if he believes in its existence, no matter how 
 it may operate on himself individually ; it is of no consequence 
 to him whether he inhabit a large county or a small one. 
 
 Gentlemen say that lai’ge counties have no cause of com- 
 plaint on this ground, because they have small counties near 
 them. As well might you say to the poor man, under an 
 Aristocratic form of goverinnent, who complains that he is not 
 represented, “ Sir, you have no right to complain, you have 
 rich neighbors near you, who are represented, and who will, 
 consequently, take care of your interests.” Would such an 
 answer be viewed by him as consolation suited to his case ? 
 Would he not view it as the taujit of scorn ? As the mockery 
 of his grievance ? And so should this argument be view ed by 
 the inhabitants of large counties. 
 
 To him, this question a])peared simple and unanswerable. 
 Gentlemen opposed to a Convention have no right to open 
 their mouths upon the subject j they have no right to say we 
 shall have no Convention. In their open opposition to this 
 measure, they say to the supporters of the present proposi- 
 tion : “ Although your fathers have fought and bled to secure 
 your liberty and independence ; although for this your soil 
 has drank their blood, and their bones have whitened on its 
 bosom, you shall not enjoy the blessings secured to you by 
 their valor. Although we acknowledge you are not equally 
 represented, we will stand self-created guardians thereof, be- 
 tween you and the Constitution ; although it is the charter of 
 your OW'D liberties, purchased bj the blood of your ow^q an- 
 
56 
 
 ccstoi's. ;ilthouii;li \vc iicknowlcdge it to be youe own exclusive 
 peopei-ty, yet wc will take it upon ourselves to form a phalanx 
 around it, and bid you defiance; you shall not, unhallowed as 
 you are, obtrude yourselves into its presence, or touch it with 
 your polluted liands.” From wlience do these gentlemen de- 
 rive such high powers ? They have them not ; they have no 
 right to say to the free people of this State, you shall not 
 have a Convention. If, when tlie vote comes to be taken on 
 the subject, they think it inexpedient to hold a Convention, 
 they can put in a ticket to that effect. But it is our right, 
 (said Mr. S.) to have a Convention. 
 
 It is painful to look around upon tins respectable assem- 
 blage — the Legislative Council of the freest people on the 
 globe, and reflect that all who have spoken, and all who will 
 vote on this important question, have spoken, and will vote 
 under tlie sole influence of wliat they believe to be their sec- 
 tional and individual interest, without adverting a moment, 
 to tlie abstract question of right. If tlie question w'ere put 
 to evTry man in this committee, separately, individually and 
 alone, “ are those Resolutions reasonable ?” he would answer 
 aflirmatively ; but men, gentlemen, appear on this floor in 
 their representative capacity, borne away on the tide of sec- 
 tional and individual interest ; they can say there shall be no 
 Convention, and right and justice is lost in the flood. 
 
 Mr. J. S. Smith observed, that the proposition befoi’e the 
 committee w as important, as it proposed to submit to the citi- 
 zens of this State the propriety of calling a Convention to 
 amend their Constitution. 
 
 From remarks which had fallen from gentlemen in the 
 course of this debate, it seemed to be doubted whether we had 
 a right to .interfere w ith the Constitution. He presumed no 
 member of the committee meant seriously to assert such a 
 doctrine. All power, said Mr. S. belongs to the people, and 
 they have a right to meet and consult for the public good, 
 and to amend tlieir charter of government as they please. 
 This is a right secured by the Law of Nations. To prove 
 which, Mr. S. I'cad an extract from Fattel. 
 
 It is, said Mr. S. a well established principle, that the peo- 
 ple have a right to alter their Constitution at pleasure. But 
 although gentiemen acknowledge that we possess this right, 
 they are not for affording us any remedy. They ask wdiat 
 business the Legislature ha^i to meddle with it? And they 
 deny that the people have any right to act upon it. So that 
 we have a right, but no remedy. This, said Mi-. S. cannot 
 be so. And though the Legislature cannot compel the people 
 
57 
 
 to hold a Convention, they may point out the mode in which 
 it can be done. 
 
 But waving that point of the subject, it is said to be inex» 
 pedient to call a Convention provided we have the power ; 
 and he would endeavour to follow the course of remark which 
 had been made on that subject. 
 
 The gentleman from Halifax gave the following reasons 
 why it would be inexpedient to call a Convention. He said 
 it would convulse the people to throw into their hands that 
 power which is their own. It would convulse the State, and 
 jeopardize the best interests of the country. Where does the 
 gentleman find grounds fort las appreliension ? Is there any 
 thing so factious in the people of North-Carolina more than 
 in other States of the Union ? It has always been allowed 
 that this State is the Southern State of steady habits. 
 
 Out of twenty-four States, twenty he believed had lately 
 adopted new Constitutions, Connecticut (the land of steady 
 habits) amongst the rest. Even the factious State of Georgia 
 (as it has sometimes been called) has submitted the question 
 to the people, who had shewn that they were not anxious to 
 grasp at power; on the contrary, they are willing to let 
 things remain as they are. Was the State of New-York con- 
 vulsed by faction when the people of that State held a Con- 
 vention ? No such thing. The delegates met at Albany, and 
 proceeded to business in a manner becoming the Representa- 
 tives of a wise, Republican State. Nor lias any thing like 
 faction appeared in any of the other States on like occasions. 
 If, said Mr. S. you agree to submit the question to the peo- 
 ple, as is pi’oposed, and a majority be in favor of the mea- 
 sure, the question will be, what is to be done ? The people 
 will be told that the Convention, when assembled, will have 
 power to abolish such of our Constitutional provisions as 
 they think proper and to make new ones, and they will ap- 
 point for this purpose, the best qualified Citizens in the 
 State. 
 
 In the election of Members to the General Assembly, the 
 citizens are careless, believing that any man of good inten- 
 tions, and good common sense, will answer the purpose 5 
 but when a new Constitution is to be formed, you will see 
 every man repair to the poll, and the best and fittest men ia 
 the community wilt be chosen. No man in the State will be 
 exempt from serving in a Convention ; even your Governor, 
 or your Judges, or Ministers of the Gospel, might be elected 
 to that body. You may therefore bring together the great- 
 est talents in the State. And can it be supposed, for a mo- 
 ment, that such a body would be factious^ or adopt any mea- 
 
 8 
 
58 
 
 sui tMvliidi would not be for the welfare and happiness of the 
 State ? 
 
 But gontleincn have said, that under the ]>resent state of 
 filings, uotliiug like oppression takes place. Mr. S. admitted 
 tiiat we at present enjoy liberty and a good degree of hap- 
 piness ; and that the Constitution under which we live is 
 a good one, considering the time when it was made. But 
 since its formation, times and circumstances have changed. 
 
 Gentlemen call loudly on the friends of the Resolutions, to 
 shew any instance in which the people are deprived of their 
 1‘igbtsj and what necessity there is for calling a Convention. 
 
 Mr. S. said he would examine this subject. We allege 
 that our Representation is unequal, and we name two Coun- 
 ties to prove it, Row;an and Columbus. The citizens of Co- 
 lumbus have six times the portion of Representation in the 
 General Assembly that the citizens of Rowan have. What 
 are tlie rights of a citizen ? His lirst rights are his natural 
 rights, to life, liberty, and the possession of hajipiness. But 
 when he enters into the social compact, he surrenders some 
 of his natural rights for the sake of enjoying his political 
 rights. All men are born equal, and every man similarly 
 situated is entitled to equal rights and equal privileges. This 
 being a fact, we have a right to complain that the citizens of 
 the large counties do not possess equal political rights with 
 the citizens of small counties. And if lie must speak of East- 
 ern and Western (though he disliked the distinction) our 
 people believe that they do not possess their full share of Re- 
 presentation in the Legislature. That the Eastern Members 
 make laws for us, and tax us without our consent j and they 
 make our Governors, Judges and other Officers. The East 
 has the majority, and consequently the power, and though they 
 may not use it improperly, they may do so if it pleases them. 
 This we call a grievance. To deny to freemen an equal 
 voice in making law's, laying taxes, ^c. is Anti-republican 
 and Aristocratic. It may be called Republicanism ; but it is 
 Aristocratic Republicanism, just such as he would call the 
 Republicanism of Virginia, or that of any other State where 
 it is necessary to have a freehold to entitle a man to a vote. 
 
 Here, then, said Mr. S. we present a grievance. Here we 
 shew you something like oppression. What, asked Mr. S. 
 is more degrading to a man than to feel that he has less poli- 
 rights than Ins neighbour? To discover that the citizen 
 of a small county has five or six times the pow'er that he has ? 
 
 For what, asked Mr. S. did our forefathers fight ? It was 
 for a free Republican Government and equal rights. The 
 gentleman from Halifax had told the committee somethings 
 
59 
 
 about the stnig.^le which had taken place in Connecticut be- 
 tween the powers of Church and State. It was a liappy 
 stiTigi^le. He differed entirely in opinion from the gentle- 
 man from Newhern on this subject. It was, said Mr. S. a 
 struggle between the State and the Churcli, and he thanked 
 God that the State liad prevailed — That they had thrown off 
 the yoke of the Clergy, and established a free Government. 
 
 The gentleman from Halifax next makes a comparison be- 
 tween the situation of our small counties and the small 
 States — a comparison that is altogether inapplicable. A 
 State is a sovereign, indissoluble body politic. A County, 
 on the contrary, has no power but what is derived from the 
 sovereign authority of tlie State. As a State, Delaware is 
 equally sovereign with New-York. When the thirteen States 
 met to form a National Goverjiment, it became necessary to 
 make a compromise with the small States of Rhode Island 
 and Delaware, and they were accordingly allowed the same 
 Representation in the Senate with the other States. But has 
 the little county of Columbus any sovereignty ? Certainly 
 not. Why, then, is it entitled to more Representatives in 
 proportion to its size, than other counties. 
 
 The gentleman next alleges, that there would be great dif- 
 ficulty in a Convention about the proper basis of Represen- 
 tation. He (Mr. S.) had no doubt there would be some dif- 
 ference of opinion on this subject. But the members, after 
 some discussion, would come to an understanding on the sub- 
 ject. He did not believe the citizens of the West had any ill- 
 will towards their brethren of the East. He was certain 
 that he himself had none ; and if a Convention were to be 
 held, the basis of Representation would be fixed on the prin- 
 ciple of population, o)i the federal principle, or on population 
 and taxation combined. Let us, said he, come together, and 
 an opportunity will be afforded of conciliation and compro- 
 mise. But while the two sections stood aloof from each 
 other, nothing could be effected. 
 
 The gentleman from Newbern complained that the friends 
 of these Resolutions confined themselves to the unfair Repre- 
 sentation, and did not point out the defects in the Constitu- 
 tion. Mr. S. said, that was the pi-inciple defect, and was 
 considered a grievance which could not be denied. 
 
 But the same gentleman says, this is not a proper time for 
 amending the Constitution ; tliat the country is very much 
 embarrassed in a pecuniary point of view, and therefore unfit 
 to be entrusted witli the power of amending the Constittuion. 
 
 Mr. S. said, it was true that the embarrassments which the 
 .gentleman spoke of bad existed, and perhaps, in some degree. 
 
60 
 
 still exist ; but he did not see what this had to do with the 
 subject. The Constitutions of Connecticut, New-York, Mas- 
 sachusetts and Maine liad been formed during the state of 
 things alluded to, and we have heard of no disorder attend- 
 ant on the Conventions formed for those purposes. Nor 
 have any of them adoided any article growing out of the pe- 
 culiar situation of the country. The Constitution of tlie U. 
 States, indeed, forms a barrier tcj any such provision, as it 
 prohibits any thing from being made a tender in payment 
 but gold and silver coin. Tlie States cannot therefore emit 
 bills of credit. 
 
 Were a Convention to be held, said Mr. S. the subject of 
 the embari’assment of the times would not be brought before 
 it. We shall shew you, before the close of the present ses- 
 sion, that your new Bank scheme without a specie capital, or 
 any other wild scheme will be discarded by the present 
 Legislature ; and if it will not countenance projects of this 
 kind, how can it be expected that a Convention would act 
 less wisely ? 
 
 But gentlemen say our Constitution has had an existence 
 of 45 years, and therefore ought not to be touched. If an 
 argument of this kind ought to have any weight, it might 
 have been used with much greater force against amending 
 the Constitution or Charter of Connecticut, which had exist- 
 ed since the days of King Charles. But such arguments 
 had no weight there, and they are entitled to none here. 
 Time cannot sanctify error. If your Constitution have 
 nothing to recommend it but the rust of antiquity, that ought 
 not to protect it. If you are not able to shew that it is per- 
 fect in all its parts, or superior to any Constitution which 
 the present age can form, the people ought to have an oppor- 
 tunity of amending it when they express a wish to do so. 
 
 Mr. Jefferson had been referred to as authority for the 
 system of Representation adopted in Virginia. You are told 
 that a portion of the people in that State are disfranchised ; 
 that no man who is not possessed of a freehold can vote for a 
 Delegate to their House of Representatives. Mr. S. said he 
 objected to this system. He cared not who was in favour of 
 it. He respected Mr. Jefferson as mucli as any man ; but 
 he would not call such a system of government a Democratic 
 Republic ; but, in the language of Vattd, an Aristocratic Re- 
 public. [Mr. S. read a passage from Vattcl in support of his 
 opinion.] 
 
 What, asked Mr. S. constitutes the strength of the State ? 
 There are two kinds of strength ^ the one moral, the other 
 physical. The moral; is the good opinion which the people 
 
61 
 
 entertain of the goodness of its form ; the physical, is the 
 force and ability which it possesses to meet an enemy. Sup- 
 pose your Republic is invaded, all your citizens would be 
 called upon to defend it, whether they have land or not, and 
 if a man be obliged to fight for his country, he surely ought 
 to enjoy the rights of a citizen. 
 
 The next gentleman who addressed tlie committee on this 
 subject was ft-om Beaufort, (Mr. Blackledge.) That gentle- 
 man acknowledged that the Western people were not cor- 
 rectly represented. This was a generous acknowledgment, 
 and nothing more than he expected from the candour of that 
 gentleman. But he nevertheless demanded of us a catalogue 
 of our grievances. He admits we liavc not justice done us, 
 but demands of us to shew where we have it not. The gen- 
 tleman goes on to remark, tliat tliougli the East does not 
 e(jual the West in population, the towns of Newbern, Wil- 
 mington, &c. pay all the taxes paid by this State to the Gene- 
 ral Government. It is true tliat those places are the ports of 
 entry, and that the Revenue Officers reside there, and that 
 our merchants first pay the duties on shipping and on goods 
 imported. But if the gentleman had read a little more on the 
 subject of Political Economy, he would have found, that 
 though the merchant pays these duties in the first instance, 
 they are ultimately )>aid by the consumei-s of the goods im- 
 ported, who live in tlie interior of tlie country. 
 
 The gentleman from Wilmington, (Mr. Jones) next ad- 
 dressed the committee, vei-y eloquently and very feelingly. 
 He regretted that so much feeling and zeal had been shewn 
 by the advocates of these resolutions. Mr. S. said it was na- 
 tural that gentlemen should exj)r*ess themselves feelingly when 
 they had to claim the rights of freemen, of which they were 
 unjustly deprived. But the alarm which was taken in rela- 
 tion to our forcibly obtaining our rights, had no foundation. 
 We will bear the evil of which we complain, until our Eas- 
 tern friends can be prevailed upon to do us justice ; but we 
 shall never cease to claim our rights. 
 
 Gentlemen speak of threats which have appeai’ed in some 
 newspaper. This was no doubt the production of some in- 
 temperate person ; but a publication of this kind ought not to 
 be charged upon the friends of tiiese resolutions. So far as 
 he knew the Western people, he could pledge himself they 
 meant to use no other weapons but those of fair argument. 
 
 A Convention is objected to, because it is committing all 
 the political powers of the community into the hands of the 
 people j and it is feared that when the delegates to a Conven- 
 tion met, they might break down some of the old barriers of 
 
the Government. It is apjn’eliemled that certain powers 
 would be taken trom the Judiciary ami placed in the Lcs^isla- 
 ture. He did not fear any tiling of the kind. Though some 
 two or three gentlemen might liave given such an ojiinion, he 
 believed the people of the West are as much attached to our 
 Judiciary, as any other citizens in the State. No danger, he 
 believed, need be apprehended from that quarter. 
 
 Are you afraid, asked Mr. S. to trust the peojile with the 
 power which belongs to them ? The doctrine, that the peo- 
 ple are unable to govern themselves, cannot be tolerated in 
 this fi-ee country. It might suit the subjects of George IV, 
 or of the Emperor of all the Russias, but he hoped it would 
 find but few advocates w ith us. He should always be the 
 supporter of self-government. It is contained in the first 
 clause of our Declaration of Rights ; and the people have ne- 
 ver passed the sovereignty out of their hands, and he trusted 
 never would. 
 
 The next gentleman who addressed the committee was from 
 Granville, (Mr. Hillman) and he adopted the same strain of 
 argument with Ids friends on that side of the question. He 
 asks if the Governor be not now, in effect, elected by the peo- 
 ple, through their representatives. Mr. S. observed, that he 
 had already stated that the present majority of the Legisla- 
 ture elect the officers of Government and make laws without 
 our consent, which is a sufficient answer to the gentleman’s 
 remark. 
 
 But, asks the gentleman, if you form a new Constitution, 
 may not that also have its defects ? Mr. S. jiresumed it would. 
 It would be the work of man, and as man is imperfect, his 
 works will necessaiily be so. But what, said he, does this 
 prove ? Not that our present Constitution cannot be amend- 
 ed ? Cannot be made more conformable to republican princi- 
 ples ? It certainly proves no such thing. 
 
 The gentleman asks if the Constitution of the U. States be 
 not republican ? It certainly is, said Mr. S. and he would 
 be content to make ours as like it as possible ; for he consi- 
 dered it a good republican Constitution. But the gentleman 
 enquires if political justice can be weighed in a balance ? 
 Though this cannot be done, w e might come nearer to it than 
 to allow one man to have six times as much as another. We 
 can approach equal justice something nearer than our pre- 
 sent Constitution does. 
 
 But the question is asked, why a man with half a million 
 of dollars has not more political power than a man without 
 a dollar ? A rich man has no more pow'er in the election of 
 a member of this House than the poorest man of the commu- 
 
63 
 
 iiity ; but our Constitution provides for the security of the 
 ricii in the Senate, whose members are elected by landhold- 
 ers, and witliout whose consent no law can pass to injure the 
 man of wealth. The riches of a wealthy man give him also 
 an indirect influence in elections, as he can generally draw 
 after him a number of votes from men who, in some way or 
 other, are dependant on him, though this is contrary to our 
 principles of political Justice. Men are equal, and ought to 
 have equal j)o!itical rights. 
 
 The gentleman intimated that if the Western people had 
 the power they would abuse it. But he assigned no reason 
 w hy the people of the West would be more likely to abuse 
 power than those of the East. Mr. S. did not know that the 
 Eastern people had abused the power which they have. But 
 the better way is to distribute the power, and thus give nei- 
 ther section of the State an opportunity of abusing it. 
 
 But the gentleman asks, if any county has presented a 
 grievance to this Legislature which has. not been properly 
 attended to ? Mr. S. said the Legislature had not the power 
 of applying a remedy to the grievance which they presented, 
 except by adopting the Resolutions now before the commit- 
 tee. 
 
 Mr. S. apologised for detaining the committee so long j 
 but w'ould draw his remarks to a close. He would observe, 
 that most of the old States had held Conventions for the 
 amendment of their Constitutions, and in every instance the 
 Constitutions thus submitted to the people have been much 
 improved ; and he had no hesitation in believing, that if the 
 Legislature would consent to submit our Constitution in like 
 manner, the people have wisdom enough to present us with a 
 Constitution not inferior to any other in the Union. The 
 people of this State are as watchful of their rights as those of 
 any other State. When the Federal Constitution was pre- 
 sented to them for adoption, they did not embrace it at first ; 
 but after due consideration and considerable debate, they 
 finally accepted of it. They have, at no time, been regard- 
 less of the riglits and liberties of freemen. 
 
 The misfortune is, said Mr. S. that gentlemen will not be 
 convinced by argument, because they have the power and 
 are determined to keep it. No argument 1ms any effect upon 
 them. Political power to a Legislator, is like gold to a mi- 
 ser. He knew of no instance of persons surrendering politi- 
 cal power without a struggle. 
 
 Mr. S. concluded by observing, that it is very easy to in- 
 troduce plausible objections to any measure, however just 
 and reasonable ; to alarm the feelings of the timid,, and lead 
 
64 
 
 them to a])])i’chen(l the destruction of their liberties. When 
 the present Constitution of the United States was first pro- 
 posed, a great alarm was raised, and much evil predicted. 
 The Articles of Confederation were clung to. It was said 
 that tlie States were about to give up every thing, and that 
 the liberties of the people were about to be subverted. Yet 
 the event lias proved tiiat all the predictions then made had 
 no foundation ; for no man can now be found who does not 
 rejoice in the change, and feel grateful for the blessings which 
 we enjoy under the present government of the Union. 
 
 He hoped tlie committee would weigh the subject maturely 
 and dispassionately, and decide upon it according to the best 
 dictates of their judgment. The observations which he had 
 made, were such as his duty called for, and which he believed 
 to be founded in truth. Relying on the justice and magnani- 
 mity of the committee, he hoped they would allow tliis ques- 
 tion to be submitted to the people ; and with their decision, 
 whatever it might be, he should be satisfied. 
 
 Mr. Hii-LMAif explained. 
 
 Mr. Hawks. — I have watched with patient attention, Mr. 
 Chairman, the progi-ess of the gentleman from Hillsborough, 
 (Mr. Smith,) in his march over this wide field of controversy. 
 I have seen him, in the chivalrous spirit of reform, pass by 
 no combatant who has yet appeared in the contest, and, like 
 Gulliver among the Lilliputians, he has endeavored to throw 
 the pigmies who suri’ounded him, hither and thither, at his 
 own will and pleasure. The humble individual who now ad- 
 dresses you, has not escaped his animadversions, and there- 
 fore hopes the committee will pardon him for again entering 
 the lists. 
 
 For himself, Mr. H. said, he thanked the gentleman for 
 that ray of illumination he had thrown on the subject by quo- 
 tations from Vattcl on the Law of JWitions. The gentleman 
 deserved credit for the correctness of his quotations, and Mr. 
 H. said he had only to lament, that in his search for truth, 
 the gentleman had not proceeded far enough to discover the 
 whole truth. This eminent writer had been rejiresented to 
 the committee as laying down the principle, that in republics, 
 as the power belongs to the people, the people have the right 
 to make what Constitution they please ; and we, said Mr. H. 
 are called on to adoj)t, as a fair conclusion from this princi- 
 ple, the strange position advanced yesterday, for the first 
 time, by the gentleman from Fayetteville, (Mr. Strange) that 
 as mdividuals in t'le great mass of the community, we are en- 
 
65 
 
 titled to a vote on the subject, but when placed in a legislative 
 capacity, it is beyond the power entrusted to us. This novel 
 idea should be answered by Vattel himselfj he was too pro- 
 found in his views to lay down as a rule of action a proposi- 
 tion so indefinite as this ; it would therefore be found, upon 
 consulting liim further, that in all contemplated alterations of 
 an established form of government, the question of expediency 
 was expressly recognized as a previous one. And who should 
 answer the question ? The people, by their delegates con- 
 vened in supreme legislative council ; and when, said Mr. 
 H. this General Assembly shall have voted it to be expedient, 
 we will return to the ranks of our fellow-citizens, and, acting 
 on the principle read from Vattel, by the gentleman from 
 Hillsborough, will proceed to tlie exercise of our rights as 
 private individuals. 
 
 In directing the attention of the committee to the benefit 
 which might be derived from the history of the sister States 
 in the confederacy, Mr. H. said he had yesterday stated what 
 he had seen in Connecticut, at the time tliat State met in Con- 
 vention for the amendment of its Constitution. This state- 
 ment had been questioned. The cliange had been called by 
 the gentleman from Hillsborough, a contest between Church 
 and State, in w hich the latter obtained the victory. Mi*. H. 
 said, that a very slight acquaintance with the State of Con- 
 necticut, was sufficient to shew that this was not the case. 
 That Church which was represented as so obnoxious, con- 
 tained within its body a majority ot the people ; in the strug- 
 gle, therefore, it must have been triumphant. The fact was, 
 it was a mere contest for power between those who had it, 
 and those who wanted it, but who had no Constitutional right 
 to it. The demon of faction there stalked abroad, and its 
 ti*ack may now be seen by the mournful vestiges of desolation. 
 The wisest and best men in the State stemmed the torrent in 
 vain ; they could only mourn over the calamities of their 
 country, and the remembrance of its condition almost wrung 
 from them tears of blood. 
 
 It might not be amiss, Mr. H. said, here to advert to ano- 
 ther fact in the history of the adoption of the Constitution of 
 Connecticut, as it might, perhaps, convince gentlemen that 
 those States which had in this debate been applauded for their 
 independence in demolishing the fabrics reared by the hands 
 of their fathers, were not in all things wmrthy of imitation. 
 The Convention of Connecticut met, formed its Constitution, 
 sent it forth to the people, and called on them with insulting 
 haste to decide after the deliberation of a fortnight, on the 
 adoption of an instrument under w hich they and their poste- 
 
 P 
 
66 
 
 1‘ity woi-c to live pcrliaps for centuries. Changes in goveru- 
 mcjit were not to be made foi- light and transient causes, and 
 wlienever any change sliould be attempted in our Constitu- 
 tion, ^Ir. H. hoped it would be done with wisdom and deli- 
 beration. To make a Constitution, is not the work of a day, 
 nor ouglit it to be entrusted to common hands ; but no gentle- 
 man could say that in the present temper of the times, the 
 timid haste of tliose who might fear the loss of power, w'ould 
 not force upon us the precipitate course pursued by Connec- 
 ticut. 
 
 The attention of the committee had been called, by the gen- 
 tlejnan from Hillsboi'ough, to the Constitution of the Ujiited 
 States. We have been told, said Mr. H. that in every cor- 
 rect system of representation, it is necessai-y, in order to 
 equalize political power, to take into view both the population 
 and property of a community. This is the principle which I 
 recognized yesterday. The Constitution of the General Gov- 
 ernment, embraces this principle, and so does our Constitu- 
 tion ; but to make representation ■perfectly equal, is, as was 
 remarked by the gentleman fron» Granviile, (Mr. Hillman,) 
 impossible ; and therefore the Federal Constitution, so far as 
 representation is concerned, was formed in the spirit of com- 
 promise. And however gentlemen may ridicule the idea, 
 there must have been a principle of sovereignty in our coun- 
 ties 5 and when these several counties adopted the Constitu- 
 tion, it was done in the same spirit of compromise. 
 
 But it is objected against the presejit system, that the Le- 
 gislature appoints the Governor a>id Judges, and in this objec- 
 tion the real motive of opposition w as developed ; here was 
 seen the hand grasping for poTver. He did not think the gen- 
 tlemen from the West had any cause of complaint against 
 their fi-iends from the East, on this ground. The West had 
 certainly enjoyed its full share of honorable appointments ; 
 and from the county in which the gentleman from Hillsborough 
 lives, no less than six members of the bar had been taken, 
 within a few years, to grace the bench of our superior courts. 
 
 The gentleman from Granville had yesterday called upon 
 the friends of the resolutions to place their fingers on any ac- 
 tual grievance grow ing out of the present system. None liad 
 been shewm. The evils complained of, said Mr. H. exist only 
 upon paper ; and we are asked to alter our Constitution be- 
 cause the delicate ears of hypercritical gentlemen are offended 
 with its phraseology. But this morning, the gentleman from 
 Hillsborough tells us in general terms, that our Constitution 
 will be greatly improved by a revision, and at the same time 
 admits that the new system will probably be stamped with 
 
67 
 
 the impress of human infirmity. Sir, I thank him for the 
 admission, for on it we may build. I had thought, from the 
 remarks of the other friends of these resolutions, that we had 
 readied that era of intelligence, when we could not fail to bet- 
 ter our Constitution ; but if the labors of the present enlight- 
 ened age, like those of the last, are to be stamped with imper- 
 fection, I would submit it to the understandings of those who 
 hear me, whether it be not better to bear the evils tliat we 
 have, “ than fly to others that we know not of.” We know 
 what are the present defects in our government, but we can- 
 not foresee what may be the defects in any new Constitution 
 which may be formed. Mr. H. said he would point them to 
 the wisdom of these latter days as displayed in the new Con- 
 stitutions formed by Alabama, Missouri, New-York, &c. and 
 he asked to be shewn any one of them better than ours. 
 
 He had asserted yesterday, that if representation was to be 
 regulated by numbers and wealth, there was no inequality. 
 His honorable friend from Beaufort, (Mr. Blackledge,) had 
 repeated the sentiment, and declared that the revenue paid 
 into the public coffers, from the towns on the sea-board, ex- 
 ceeded all that was furnished by tlie Western counties. This 
 had been contested, and considered as totally irrelevant to the 
 present question. Mr. H. thought it had much to do with the 
 subject. North- Carolina, viewed as an independent State, 
 possessed tlie same common interest ; and that which tended 
 to diminish the wealth of individuals, inhabiting any portion of 
 her territory, tended at the same time to the common injury, 
 for individual wealth was the foundation of national wealth. 
 The Eastern section of the State, interested in shipping to a 
 vast amount, and continually importing goods subject to duty, 
 poured into the treasury chest of the Federal Government, a 
 sum which, superadded to the revenue furnished by the East 
 to the State Treasury, made an aggregate, compared with 
 which, the amount of revenue raised in the W'est was small 
 indeed. But some gentleman had been pleased to say, that 
 the Treasury of the United States was not the Treasury of 
 North-Carolina. True, said Mr. H. it is not our Treasiu’y, 
 Sir, but it serves in various ways to protect a portion of our 
 territory, which furnishes part of the funds in the State Trea- 
 sury, and thereby insures the permanency of those funds. 
 Mr. H. said that a comment on the remark of his friend from 
 Rockingham, (Mr. Morehead,) would illustrate his idea. 
 That gentleman had said that our countrymen of the West 
 were ready with their thousands of armed men, to defend us 
 in time of danger. For myself, Mr. H. proceeded, I thank 
 the gentleman I am sure that our countrymen in the West 
 
68 
 
 would act the part of brethren ; hut. Sir, with a defenceless 
 ■'sea-board of j^reat extent, unprotected by a naval armament, 
 (wliich armament the East now contributes to support,) our 
 Western coadjutors would find on their arrival, the vestiges 
 of a victorious enemy, in our desolated towns and smoking 
 villages. TItcy would find, too, that they were deeply inter- 
 ested in our weal or woe, because in the body politic, as in 
 the Jiatural body, the affection of any one part Mull be felt by 
 the M'liole system. 
 
 But the gentleman from Hillsborough, aw^are that the reve- 
 nue furnished by the East to the General Government, is in 
 its consequences advantageous to North-Carolina at large, 
 attempts to evade tlie conclusion drawn from the fact, by tell- 
 ing us that these revenues are paid by tlie Western people, 
 the consumers of the articles, and not the merchants. Mr. 
 H. said it was true that the consumer paid the duty, but it 
 M'as also undeniably true, that the tax did not fall on the peo- 
 ple of the West, for a very small proportion of the importa- 
 tions of the East ever passed to tlie Westof the spot on which 
 he stood. 
 
 When I reflect, Mr. Chairman, said Mr. H. that these re- 
 solutions are but an invitation to us to sit in judgment upon 
 our ancestors, I am forcibly reminded of the lines of a great 
 poet, alike remarkable for his knoM'ledge of human nature 
 and for the sarcastic powers of his muse : 
 
 “We think our fathers fools, so wise we grow, 
 
 “ Our sons in future times will tlunk us so.” 
 
 Sir, M"ere this nothing more than an invitation to charge 
 with folly those who have preceded us, I would now resume 
 my seat ; but I see in it something more, our as.sistance is 
 asked to unbind and let loo.se upon the calm surface of that 
 political sea on which we at present ride in safety, the angry 
 winds of faction. That surface may be lashed by those winds 
 into billows, on which some few may float in safety to office 
 and to honor, but when M'e would fain see its turbulent waves 
 once more at peace, M’e may look around in vain for the 
 master spirit who can “ ride upon the M’hirlM’ind and direct 
 the storm” of a political tempest. 
 
 One word more. In my soul I do believe the proposed 
 measure inexpedient ; and I beg my countrymen to bear in 
 mind, that to make a Constitution is one thing, to make a 
 good one is another. Our present Constitution is a fabric 
 reared by our fathers, and within its walls we have lived for 
 many years in safety ; in tearing it down, to erect a more 
 modern edifice in its place, we may be overwhelmed' in jts- 
 ruins, we may sow the wind only to reap the whirlwind. 
 
69 
 
 Mr. Stanly said, that rising under the disadvantage of 
 addressing tlie House, after tlic subject had been very fully 
 discussed, he would detain them but a short time, while he 
 humbly gleaned over the field which others had reaped. 
 
 The question under consideration is not one of the common 
 interest of legislation, an error in which admits of an early 
 correction. We have before us a proposition to abolish that 
 Constitution which we, and our fathers before us, have reve- 
 renced as the charter of our liberties, and to trust to the un- 
 certainty of chance for a better. Before we venture upon 
 this hazard, let us cast an eye upon the Constitution which 
 it is proposed to destro}^ The instrument we speak of, is 
 not the formation of yesterjtlay ; it is tijat institution under 
 which we have lived since the birth of our Independence ; 
 which has secured to us our lives, our liberty and the pursuit 
 of happiness ; w'hich has proved itself amply competent to all 
 the objects of national prosperity ; wdiich claims our venera- 
 tion and confidence for all the sanctions which time and ex- 
 perience can give, and from the assurance that under it we 
 enjoy every blessing which belongs to man in society. With 
 equal rights to acquire and enjoy property : the right to ho- 
 nor and office is also equal, and the poorest man in the com- 
 munity, presses his infant boy to his bosom, with the cheer- 
 ing reflection, that with industry, virtue and talents, his son 
 may aspire to the highest offices of the State. Such is the 
 Constitution we now possess : the work of man, it cannot be 
 perfect : like other human institutions, a mixture of good and 
 evil, it has its defects : but the evils imputed to it should not 
 only be manifest, but should be great, before we venture on 
 the dreadful experiment of destroying it, with no certainty 
 w’hat WT are to obtain in its place. 
 
 The gentlemen who advocate the call of a convention, al- 
 lege the evils of the Constitution are to be found, 
 
 1. In the unequal representation of the people. 
 
 2. In the want of power in the Legislature to remove the 
 Judges. 
 
 3. In the mode of appointing militia officers. 
 
 Other objections, if they have them, they have not thought 
 proper to mention. 
 
 The objection to the Constitution on the ground of unequal 
 representation, is attempted to be supported, upon the allega- 
 tion that the right of representation is equal ; that the same 
 number of persons have the same rights, and should have the 
 same influence in government, or in other words, that popu- 
 lation should govern representation. 
 
 In passing to an examination of the foundation of their 
 claims, M. S. said, he wmuld barely notice a difficulty which 
 
70 
 
 at the tlireshold met these advocates of equal rights of all 
 persons. If all persons have equal rigiits, why are women 
 excluded ? Wljy are minors excluded ? Because there are 
 other considerations tlian tlie mere existence of a person, to 
 support a claim to a share in government, his views of which, 
 it was his pui-pose to offer ; at present, he would without 
 levity say, that in his opinion, the exemption of the sex was 
 rather a privilege than an exclusion : their duties were of 'a 
 higher, a more important, and of a more interesting nature — 
 the instruction of their children, the care of their household, 
 and the happiness of their husbands. 
 
 The imputed erroi* of representation under the Constitu- 
 tion is divided into two parts ; first, tliat the counties of the 
 Eastern half of the State, with a less white population, have 
 a greater number of Representatives in the Legislature than 
 the counties of the Western half; and second, that particular 
 small counties have as many Representatives as the largest. 
 
 To test the solidity of these objections, it is necessary to 
 ascend to an enquiry into the elementary principles oe 
 SOCIETY. Society is not formed, said Mr. S. inei’ely to es- 
 tablish the right nor to regulate the conduct of its members, 
 in i-egard to j)crsonal liberty ; if this were the sole object of 
 government, the personal liberty being the same, the rights 
 of all would be equal ; but, (without seeking for higher or 
 older authority,) from the time when it was commanded, 
 “ thou shall not steal, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s 
 goods,” the right to acquire and to enjoy property is as clear-: 
 ly established, and is as essential to the enjoyment of life, as 
 the right of personal liberty. The rich are people, rs well as 
 the poor, and the right of property, whether large or small, 
 is alike sacred. This security equally benefits those who al- 
 ready possess, and those who seek to acquire property — it 
 stimulates to enterprize and industry. Revenue is the vital 
 principle of government : without it, its wheels are effectu- 
 ally stopped: this revenue, property pays. We hold it, 
 therefore, a fundamental principle in government, that bar- 
 riers should be erected for the security of property ; that the 
 possessors of the j)ropcrty of a State, or of a District, should 
 have a weight in its affairs, proportioned to the contribution 
 they make to its support, and to the State which they have 
 placed upon its prosperity. Not in government only, but in 
 every association for the management of propei'ty, this prin- 
 ciple is seen to operate. In Banks, in Navigation Compa- 
 nies, in estates held in common, the influence or control of 
 each proprietoi* is proportioned to the amount he has contri- 
 buted to the Common Stock. 
 
n 
 
 That no man’s property can rightfully be taken without 
 his consent, in. other words, that taxation and nEPRESEN- 
 TATiON are inseparable, w as the very basis of our Revolution. 
 The violation of tliis principle by the parent counti-y, first 
 provoked our resistance ; on this solid ground, that taxation 
 and representation were inseparable, our fathei’s planted the 
 Standard of Independence. To prove this, Mr. S. said he 
 wou'd read short extracts from some of those eloquent re- 
 monstrances addressed by tlie Colonies to Great-Britain at 
 the commencement of tlie Revolutionary contest. T. he Book 
 was a volume of Marshall’s Life of Washington, which he 
 found at hand. 
 
 [Mr. S. here read extracts from various addresses of the 
 American Colonies to the British Government, in which it 
 was claimed as a “ fundamental axiom, that taxation and re- 
 presentation aj*e inseparable from each other — “ Itiat the 
 security of i-ight and piojjerty is the great end of govern- 
 ment — “That such measures as tend to I'ender right and 
 property irrecarious, tend to desti-oy both property and gov- 
 ernment, for these must stand or fall together — That “ the 
 proprietors of the soil are lords of their ow n property, which 
 cannot be taken from tiiem without their own consent and 
 “ that it is essentially a right that a man shall quietly enjoy 
 and have the disirosal of his own property.”] 
 
 From what source more pure can authorities be drawn ? 
 But he would not limit the range of enquiry : In every coun- 
 try where the light of property exists, the rule must be found. 
 All Republics, ancient and modern, Sparta, Athens, Rome, 
 Venice, Bern and Holland, all had their separate body rejire- 
 senting property and rank. The majority in every country 
 are men without property ; if numbers alone should decide, 
 the greater number would take the property of the less. Cer- 
 tainly that government cannot be free, nor can it enjoy Con- 
 stitutional liberty, which excludes the people, how'ever poor, 
 from a shaie in its administration ; they are the bones and 
 sinews of the State, and their voice must be heard : yet assu- 
 redly all power of government is not to be trusted, uncon- 
 trolled, in such hands. In every age, and in every climate, 
 man is the same ; — unchecked, he is found unjust, tyrannical 
 and cruel. The rights of the minority must be protected j 
 Government must be balanced with a view' to the protection 
 of the whole, and (o that end, in a general sense, and in a 
 general form, property must have its w'eight and influence. 
 This principle for w hich he contended, Mr. S. said, had ex- 
 isted in this country from its earliest settlement. The gen- 
 tleman from Salisbury, (Mr. Fisher,) had reminded us, that 
 
72 
 
 ioiii^ ])i'ior to tlic Revolution, a freehold qualilication w as rc^ 
 quiied foi- electors of the Assembly and for i-eprescntatives ; 
 to the present hour, our laws hold no man woi tliy of the 
 trust of a juroi-, who is not a freeholder. It is found in tlie 
 Constitution of the United States, w'hich regulates represen- 
 tation by tlie rule of direct taxation ; and in the Constitutions 
 of all the States, which require a qualilication of j)roj)crty in 
 tiu- elector or tlie elected. He considered the principle for 
 wdiich he contended, as established and consecrated by the 
 authors of our glorious Revolution, of whom it was but just 
 to say, that their merits, as legislators, will remain inscribed 
 on the laii-est monuments, when the memory of their splendid 
 YjCtories shall have crumbled into dust. 
 
 It was upon tliis principle, Mr. S. said, he vindicated our 
 Constitution frotn tlie unjust attacks now made upon it, and 
 should support the claim of the Eastern half of the State to 
 the share which it possessed in the Legislature. 
 
 By consulting the very correct Map of the State, by I’rice 
 and Strother, it appeared, that the point midway between the 
 Ocean and the Tennessee line, on the northern boundary of 
 the State, was the north-western corner of Gi-anville county ; 
 suspending a plumb, or drawing a line south from that point, 
 it gave to the Eastern half of the State, thiidy-live counties, 
 including the whole of Granville, all Wake but a small sec- 
 tion on its south-west corner, the greater part of Cumbeidand 
 and Bladen and Brunswick. In his calculations, he rejected 
 Cumberland from the East. That county docs not go with 
 us, and we take no benefit of its weight in our scale. 
 
 From the Comptroller’s Report to the ju-esent session, of 
 the land-tax, at the rate of six cents of tax for every one hun- 
 dred dollars of the value, the value of the lands in the East- 
 ern 35 counties, rejecting fractions, is Sl8,7l0,000 
 
 And the value of the lands in the Western coun- 
 ties, at the same rate, is 1 5,252,000 
 
 The late census shew-s that the Eastern counties contain 
 113,891 slaves j estimate them at S250 each, the value is 
 
 S28, 472,750 
 
 The Western counties contain 91,026 slaves, \ alue 22,756,500 
 The i-esult of these statements, gives to the East a property 
 in lands and slav^es of B47,000,000 
 
 And to the West 38,000,000 
 
 Shewing the property in the East, in these items only, to 
 exceed that of the West, S9,000,000 
 
 A])portion the whole representation of the sixty-two coun- 
 ties in the House of Commons, (124 members) by this esti- 
 mate of property, and the East will he entitled to sixty-cigiit 
 members, and the West to fifty-six members. 
 
73 
 
 That part of the revenue of the State, collected by the she- 
 riffs, for the. present year, is sixty-six thousand dollars. Of 
 this the East ]>aid thirty-seven thousand dollars, and tlfe West 
 twenty-nine thousand dollars. Apportion the representation 
 by taxation, the East will be entitled to sixty-nine members, 
 the West to fifty-five members. 
 
 Upon the basis of property and taxation, then, the Eastern 
 half of the State would be entitled to thirteen representatives 
 more than the Western half. And permit me to say, that the 
 growing value and improvement of the Eastern section, will 
 continue to increase the difference in their favor. Before 
 leaving this view of the question, it was proper to remark, 
 that there was other property not brought into the estimate. 
 The West have their farms stocked; so have the East: but 
 the East have large towns, which possess and employ a con- 
 siderable commercial capital, in merchandize, vessels, &c. 
 They own too, unquestionably, nine-tenths of the bank capi- 
 tal of the State. Against these funds, amounting to many 
 millions more, the West have nothing to set off. 
 
 But the West claim the advantage of numbers. On this 
 point I was gratified, said Mr. S. to hear the gentleman from 
 Hillsborough, (Dr. Smith) admit the rule of federal numbers 
 to be the proper ground of calculation. Certainly this is cor- 
 rect, and objections to the rule would come with an ill grace 
 from us, who enjoy it as a l ight in our compact with the 
 Northern States, and under which this State sends three re- 
 presentatives to Congress, gives three votes in the election of 
 President, and which places in the hands of the Southern 
 States, the power to turn the scale in the election of Presi- 
 dent. By this rule of apportioning the one hundred and twen- 
 ty-four members, tlie West would be entitled to seventy -four, 
 and the East to forty-nine representatives. Upon the average 
 of the three modes, the East would have sixty -two, and the 
 West sixty-one members. 
 
 As to the other branch of the objection, arising from the 
 equal representation of counties of unequal size and popula- 
 tion, Mr. S. said, if any injustice resulted from this circumr 
 stance, it admitted a remedy without a Convention: the Le- 
 gislature was competent to regulate the boundaries of coun- 
 ties. But no rule cduld be adopted which would give equality. 
 The counties must vary daily, as well in population as in 
 wealth ; and if made equal, tlie equality could not be preserv- 
 ed for a day. In his view, no inconvenience or injustice re- 
 sulted from the existing state of the counties. Eacii section 
 of the State formed one great community, with common feel- 
 ings and interests ; there were small counties in both see- 
 
 10 
 
74 
 
 Uoiis; ami invai-iably there would be found such strong* aifi- 
 iiity belwoon llie great and general interests of adjoining 
 counties, great and small, that while all were represented, 
 ami while all were governed by the same laws, tliere could be 
 no just ground of jealousy ; although it might happen the re- 
 presentative was elected by three liundred men in one county, 
 and by three thousand in the next. 
 
 Mr. S. said iie could not believe that the Constih ,'jon was 
 imperfect, no!- tlie practice under it unjust, in regard to the 
 impoi'tant matter of repi'eseutation. Wealth, taxation and 
 jjopiilation each had its influence. For the opposite claim, 
 that population alone should govern representation, and give 
 laws to the. State, there was no pretence of reason, and no 
 sanction of authority. North-Carolina, he hoj)ed, would not 
 be the first to fall into a fanciful experiment, at the sacrifice 
 of a priitriple of the utmost magnitude. 
 
 Mr. S. said the complaints against the practice under the 
 Constitution, were as unfounded as tlic charges against the 
 Constitution itself. Our laws are eipial ; good or bad, we all 
 alike live under tliem : If our burdens are unequal, it is the 
 East that pays the larger part of tiie tax, and we do not com- 
 plain of it. Public money is not lavished upon the East ; 
 with the power in our hands, we have given money to improve 
 the West, and have taken notliing to ourselves. The honors 
 and otiices of the State, the loaves and fishes, so called, from 
 the frugality of our government, arc not of a kind to excite 
 those active principles of the human breast, avarice and am- 
 bition ^ but such as they are, the West have more titan an 
 equal share, and at this moment, as is generally the case, the 
 far greater jiroportion of those of impoidance are filled from 
 the S\ est. It is fit, also, to meniion one important particular 
 in whicli the East, have given the wltole power to tlie West: 
 I mean the power of choosing tiic electors of President and 
 Vice-President — since by the general ticket election, the 
 West having more votes than the East, can elect a ticl,iet, in 
 opposition to the unanimous vote of the East. This surren- 
 der of riglit and power, must be remembered as one of tln‘se 
 sacrifices of public good, which, in times past, party spirit 
 made to party purposes. 
 
 The next objection urged against the Constitution, is that 
 advanced by tlie gentleman from Richmond (Mr. Leake,) : 
 The want of a more speedy means of removing tlie Judges of 
 the Superior aud Supreme Courts, than that of impeachment 
 for crimes : in other words, the want of a provision to make 
 the tenure id’ t'u 4iice of Judgr to be not during his good be- 
 haviour, but during the pleasure of the Legislature. Mr. S. 
 
75 
 
 said, he had hoped a doctrine so dangerous to the best inter- 
 ests of the country, would never again have found an a<lvo- 
 cafe in tliis House. By the forms of government happily 
 adopted in these States, the Executive, Legislative and Ju- 
 dicial departments are made separate and distinct : the Con- 
 stitution limiting and superintending the operations of the 
 Legislature. The Legislature is bound to act within certain 
 prescribe^ limits ; its power is strictly defined. Can the 
 agent transcend the authority given by his principal ? — and. 
 if he does, shall not the will of the master, the people, be pre- 
 ferred to the. will of the servant, the Legislature ? With 
 power to make laws, and with power to execute them, the 
 Legislature would have been despotic. To prevent tliis evil, 
 to check the Legislature, to confine its acts within the limits 
 marked out in the Constitution, the Judiciary, as a separate 
 and independent branch of government was created. Impor- 
 tant as this department is, it has no control over the strength 
 or the wealth of the State, it has no capacity to injure ; it is 
 the least dangerous and weakest of the departments : yet as 
 it is its pi'ovince to protect the citizen against the oppression 
 of the Legislature, it is justly regarded as the citadel of 
 public justice and public safety. Experience has shewn that 
 passion and injustice, at periods, have influenced every com- 
 munity : the favorite of one day, has been the victim of the 
 next, and systems of policy and ambition, of folly, or of w is- 
 dom, have flourished and fallen with their authors. This de- 
 pai-tment, the Judiciary, has been created, separate, co-oidi- 
 nate and independent, to check the career of the Legislature ; 
 to bring us to pause, and by compelling reflection, to protect 
 us against our worst enemies, ourselves ! While you secure 
 its independence, you preserve its integrity and fii-mness : 
 and it remains what the Cotistitution intended it should be, 
 the ark of our safety : but if you render the Judges depen- 
 dent on the Legislature for the continuance of their offices, 
 and the supply of their bread, you barter independence and 
 virtue for servility and corruption : 3 011 convert the sentinel 
 into an enemy, and render that department a curse, which 
 was designed for a blessing. Mr. S. said, these truths were 
 so obvious, and the observations to enforce tliem so trite, 
 that he had believed a do< trine so dangerous as that he now 
 opposed, a doctrine w hich claimed omnipotence for the Le- 
 gislature, and dependence for the Judiciary, had ceased to ex- 
 ist, except as rare and melancholy instances of partial luna- 
 cy ; and he fervently prayed that the malady might not be 
 more extensively injurious to the individuals afflicted. 
 
76 
 
 The mode of appointing militia officers mentioned by the 
 same gentleman as an objection to the Constitution, Mr. S. 
 consi<Iered as of no consequence. As the militia ought to be, 
 the whole body of free men armed atid disciplined, the com- 
 mand would be interesting ; but as they are ! not unifoi'm ei- 
 ther in arms or dress, and without discipline ; who are their 
 officers, or liow they arc chosen, was not worth considera- 
 tion. 
 
 The gentleman fi'om Hillsborough, (Dr. Smith) is pleased 
 to say, tliere should be no objection to a Convention, for a 
 Conventio)! could not injure us. Surely I misconceived the 
 genth man’s meaning. Passing over tlie heavy expenditure 
 wliicl) must attend tlie measure, I ask will not a Convention 
 be unrestj-ained ? Will it not have absolute power ? Who 
 can control it ? Does not the foi-mation of a Constitution 
 I’equire the greatest effort of human genius, directed by the 
 purest virtue ? What secuiaty have we, that a Convention 
 to be now assembled, would be thus enlightened and guided ? 
 May they not authorise encroachments still further than we 
 have already made on the right of trial by Jury ? May they 
 not render the Legislature despotic, and life and property in- 
 secure, by destroying the independence of the Judiciary ? 
 May they not adopt the notion to day advocated, of regulat- 
 ing representation solely by population ? May they not, in 
 short, while they ])reserve the form of Republican Govern- 
 ment, mar the enjoyment of every right, and abridge every 
 blessing of prosperity ? We know that a Convention may do 
 these mighty mischiefs : this is sufficient to w^arrant. us in 
 withholding the power, until evils which do not yet exist un- 
 der the present Constitution, require so hazardous a remedy. 
 It is true other States have had Conventions, but Mi*. S. said, 
 he believ'ed it was also true, that, with very few exceptions, 
 they had not improved the condition of the States in which 
 they had been qallcd, but had left tliem worse than they found 
 them. 
 
 The authority of Vattel, read by the gentleman from Hills- 
 borough, Mr. S. said, he considered entitled to more respect 
 than was paid by those who sneered at his “ worm-eaten pa- 
 ges.” Vattel gives as his opinion, “ that a nation may change 
 its Constitution, by a majority of votes ; and whenever there 
 is nothing in this change that can be considered as contrary 
 to the act of the civil association, or to the intention of those 
 united under it, all are hound to conform to the resolution of 
 the majority.” Tfiat the power of the nation is unlimited, 
 cannot be denied — all power rests in the people : they made 
 the Constitution, and physically, a majority can destroy it. 
 
77 
 
 Yet the Constitution spoken of by Vattel, was that unwritten 
 form of government, resulting from usage, which alone had 
 existed at the period in which he wrote. And one view of 
 this subject Vattel could not take, because it results from a 
 state of things not existing in his day. I mean the formation 
 of written Constitutions by a free people. When the people 
 of these States declared that all connexion between them and 
 Great-Britain was dissolved, and that they were free, sove- 
 reign and independent, tliey reduced their act of civil asso- 
 ciation” to writing : they formed written Constitutions. By 
 the terms of this association, by this written Constitution, the 
 people surrendered their natural rights into the hands of the 
 Legislature, except so far as by express reservation they re- 
 tained them. With great caution the people of this State pre- 
 fixed to their Constitution a jBttt of Rights, which 1 under- 
 stand to be an enumeration of rights reserved, and of powers 
 not granted. Is this power to form a Convention and des- 
 troy the Constitution reserved ? Is the power reserved to a 
 portion of the people, without the consent of tlie reprasenta- 
 tives of tlie whole, expressed in an act of tlie Legislature, to 
 form a Convention ? And if the power is not reserved, would 
 not such a Convention, in the words of Vattel, be ‘‘ contrary 
 to the act of association, and to the intention of those who 
 united under it ?” A portion of the people may assemble, but 
 to me it seems, said Mr. S. it will be nothing more than the 
 exercise of the “ holy right of insurrection,” which, as it suc- 
 ceeds or not, may be termed rebellion or revolution. At all 
 events, the inference is strong, that the right to form a Con- 
 vention and to alter the Constitution, without the sanction of 
 the Legislature, is not believed to exist : since in every State 
 it has originated with the Legislature, and though often ap- 
 plied for, and repeatedly refused, no attempt has ever been 
 made to proceed without Legislative sanction. And the re- 
 peated applications from a portion of this State, to the Legis- 
 lature, for a Convention, shew beyond contradiction, that they 
 act under the conviction that a Legislative authority is neces- 
 sary, to justify the measure. 
 
 Mr. S. said he would recommejid to the gentleman from 
 Hillsborough, to extend his study of Tattel to the following 
 sections of the chapter he had read ; he would find Vattel 
 there inculcating “ that great changes in a State being deli- 
 cate and very dangerous affairs, and frequent changes being 
 in their own nature prejudicial, a peoj)le ought to be very cir- 
 cumspect in doing it, and never be inclined to make innovations 
 without the most pressing reasons, or an absolute necessity.’* 
 
78 
 
 Mr. S. said he believed a Convention to change the Con- 
 stitution, was unnecessary : tliat the grounds offered in sup- 
 port of tliat measure were unjust and untenable : that in go- 
 ing into a Convention, we put at hazard a Constitution which, 
 if not perfect, was upon the whole, a good one, while we could 
 have no certainty what we should obtain in its place. He felt 
 himself boimd to vote against tlie Resolutions. 
 
 The Committee agreed to rise, and, on motion, recom- 
 mended to the House a rejection of the Resolutions under de- 
 bate, which Report was concurred with, 81 votes to 47. The 
 Yeas and Nays were as follows : 
 
 YEAS. — J. Adams, Andres, Alston, Alford, Brickell, Bryan, Blackledge, 
 Blount, Ballard, Barringer, Blair, Bozman, Boykin, Bateman, Barden, Bur- 
 g'Css, T. Bell, Biu-ns, Copeland, Cowan, Dai'den, Dawson, Daniel, Dulany, 
 Forbes, Gregory, Gary, liardin, Hawkins, Hurst, Hillman, Hai’rell, Hooker, 
 Humphrey, Hassell, Hawks, Hastings, Hinton, Jordan, Jones, Jai'inan, Jef- 
 freys, Joyner, Lloyd, Lamon, Larkins, Moore, Mercer, M’Millan, M’Daniel, 
 Morgan, M’Leod, M’Eachen, Martin, Nixon, Pugh, Peete, Riddick, StjTon, 
 Shipp, Skinner, Simmons, Stephens, R. Sneed, Spencer, T. Sneed, Slade, 
 Sillers, ^Stanly, Turner, Tull, Vail, AVebster, Watson, Waddell, Watkins. 
 Wynns, Wilkins, Webb, Wilder, Whitfield. — 81. 
 
 NAYS. — Anderson, W. Adams, Benton, Barbee, Brittain, Beall, Brower, 
 Baird, Collins, Clement, Carson, Durgan, Edmonston, Freeman, Flynt, Fisher, 
 N. Gordon, J. Gordon, Graves, Henry, James L. Hill, Holland, John Hill, 
 Hampton, Isbell, Love, Lane, Leake, M’Neill, M’Lean, Melchor, Morgan, 
 M’Dowell, M’Neill, M’Comb, Morehead, Miller, Rea, Rats, Roberts, W. D. 
 Smith, Shaw, Strange, J. S. Smith, Tyson, Vaughan, White. — 17. 
 
 IN SENATE. 
 
 0 
 
 Resolutions for obtaining the same object were introduced 
 into tlie Senate by Mr. Williamson, from Lincoln County; 
 but owing to the pressure of business, and the Session being 
 near its close, tliey underwent no discussion. 
 
 On a motion to indefinitely postpone their consideration, 
 the Yeas and Nays were as follows : 
 
 YEAS — Messrs. Alston, Albritton, Bryan, Boddie, Beasley, Campbell, (of 
 New-Hanover) Davis, Daniel, Frink, Flowers, Gentry, Green. Gordon, Gavin, 
 Hoskins, Hatch, Hyman, Jordan, Kenan, I.eonard, Lamb, Lindsay, (of Curri- 
 tuck) Miller, Outlaw, Peebles, Pool, Robason, Richardson, Riddick, Spaight 
 (of Craven) Speight, (of Greene) Sumnei’, Smith, Seawell, Vanhook, Walker. 
 —36. 
 
 NAYS. — Messrs. Beard, Bray, Bradley, Campbell, (of Iredell) Deberry, 
 Graves, Jluckabee, House, Holt, Lindsay, (of Rowan) Marshall, M’Leaiy, 
 Perkins, PhaiT, Parker, Person, Raiborn, Ruffin, Scales, Thomas, Williamson, 
 Wade, Wellborn. — 33. / 
 

 ■Jii 
 
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