rREASUfti ROOM <9 a Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2018 with funding from Duke University Libraries https://archive.org/details/testimonytakenbeOOsout TESTIMONY TAKEN BEFORE The Legislative Committee Investigate the State Hospital for the Insane at Columbia April 28, May 4, 6, 7, 18, 19, 20, 1909 COLUMBIA, S. C. GONZALES AND BRYAN, STATE PRINTERS. 1910. TESTIMONY TAKEN BEFORE The Legislative Committee Investigate tke State Hospital for tke Insane at Columbia April 28, May 4, 6, 7, 18, 19, 20, 1909 COLUMBIA, S. C. GONZALES AND BRYAN, STATE PRINTERS. 1910 . 11 ,_ |tf . v: ' 9 7 4A.7 CONTENTS ^ O.' '/ Witnesses. page. *F'irst Ex-Inmate.35 ^Second Ex-Inmate.96 Ex-Nurse, Mr. Henry C. Wilson.134 Second Ex-Inmate recalled.150 First Assistant Physician, Dr. J. L. Thompson.150 Supervisor, Mr. J. M. Mitchell.196 First Assistant Physician, Dr. J. L. Thompson, recalled . . 257 Assistant Physician, Dr. Eleanora B. Saunders .... 269 First Assistant Physician, Dr. J. L. Thompson, recalled . . 297 Treasurer, Mr. J. W. Bunch.308 Dairy Manager, Mr. D. F. Hedgpath.339 Treasurer, Mr. J. W. Bunch, recalled.343 Foreman of Main Kitchen, Mr. Henry P. Earle .... 350 Superintendent, Dr. J. W. Babcock.361 Assistant Physician, Dr. H. H. Griffin.421 Hearings. April 27. April 28. May 4. ... May 5. May 6. May 7. May 18. May 19. 25 33 34 150 220 307 343 ♦Exercising discretion given by the Act (page 1) the Committee voted to withhold names of inmates and ex-inmates (page 25). 246253 REPORT. Columbia, S. C., 27 April, 1909. The Commission for the Investigation of the State Hospital for the Insane, composed of the following members, this day convened in session at the State Hospital for the Insane, to-wit: Senators—Niels Christensen, Jr., Chairman, P. L. Hardin, George H. Bates. Members of the House—J. P. Carey, George W. Dick, Olin Sawyer, W. C. Harrison. The Chairman called the Commission to order. The Chairman—The Legislature at its last session received a communication from the Board of Regents and the Superintendent of the State Hospital for the Insane, which we have not a copy of at present, but we will procure a copy and put it in the record at this point. The following is a copy of the communication referred to: “The Board of Regents and the Superintendent of the State Hos¬ pital for the Insane respectfully urge the attention of your honorable body to the inadequacy of the present provision for and accommo¬ dations of the hospital and the desirability of making certain changes affecting its welfare and management. “Among these changes are the regulation of the handling of cases of chronic inebriates and alleged insane criminals, as to which some misunderstanding has arisen as to the scope and proper conduct of the work of the institution, the better classification of patients and the development of a farm colony in the country, besides improve¬ ments in other conditions now unsatisfactory. “We accordingly request that a special committee be appointed to investigate and report upon the condition and affairs of the hospi¬ tal and its management in order that your honorable body may be fully informed with reference thereto. “Respectfully, “W. J. Gooding, “J. W. Babcock.” The Chairman—In accordance with the request the Legislature passed an Act, which had best go in the record at this point, and unless it is desired we will not read it, as all are familiar with it. The following is the Act referred to, page 403 of the Acts of 1909, entitled : 246253 6 “An Act to Provide for the Investigation of the State Hospital for the Insane. “Section i. Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of South Carolina, That a Joint Committee, consisting of three members of the Senate and four members of the House of Repre¬ sentatives, be appointed by the presiding officers of the respective houses, to investigate the affairs of the State Hospital for the Insane, and that such Committee make a report and such recommendations as they may deem proper to the General Assembly at the next session thereof: Provided, That the Committee shall keep a correct record of its acts and deliberations and the testimony taken before it. “Sec. 2. That the said Committee shall have full power and authority to investigate the past and present affairs of the State Hospital for the Insane. “Sec. 3. That said Committee be, and are hereby, authorized and empowered to call before them, by summons or notice, in such form as the Committee may adopt, and to be served by the marshal of said Committee, or such other officer of the State as may be by the Com¬ mittee required, such person or persons as the Committee may deem proper, and to require such person or persons to answer upon oath any and all questions that the Committee may deem relevant and may propound to him or them; and upon the failure or refusal of such person or persons to obey such summons or notice, or to answer such question or questions, such person or persons shall be deemed to be in contempt of the authority of said Committee, and may be imprisoned upon the order of the said Committee in the common jail, to be there held until he or they shall comply with the order of the said Committee. “Sec. 4. That for the purposes of the investigation herein pro¬ vided for, the said Committee are hereby authorized and empowered to elect a marshal, who, upon being sworn, shall be and become a peace officer of the State, and invested with all the power of sheriffs and constables in the services of any and all process issued by the Committee aforesaid, and with the power to arrest and imprison, upon the order of said Committee, or who shall be guilty of any dis¬ orderly conduct in the presence of said Committee during any session thereof, or who shall be guilty of any contempt of said Committee. “Sec. 5. That the said Committee be, and the same is hereby, authorized to send for and to require the production of any and all books, papers, or other documents, or writings which may be deemed relevant to said investigation, and to require said person or persons 7 in custody or possession of said papers to produce the same before the said Committee; and any person or persons who shall fail or refuse to act on the order or notice of said Committee to produce said books, or other documents, or writings, shall be deemed guilty of contempt of said Committee, and be punished as provided in Sec¬ tion 3. “Sec. 6. Said Committee shall have power to administer necessary oaths, and any person, who shall, after being sworn before said Com¬ mittee, swear falsely, shall be deemed guilty of perjury, and upon conviction, shall be punished as provided by law. “Sec. 7. That for the purpose of the investigation of the affairs of the State Hospital for the Insane, as herein provided, each and every member of said Committee be, and hereby is, authorized and empowered separately and individually, to exercise the power and authority herein conferred upon the whole Committee. “Sec. 8. That said Committee is hereby authorized and empow¬ ered to exclude any person or persons whomsoever from any one or all of its meetings, examinations, or deliberations, and may keep secret any or all of its proceedings, deliberations, and testimony taken : Provided , That the Committee may require any person or persons admitted to its deliberations or hearings to take oath that he will keep secret all that may be said or done in his presence during said meeting, deliberation or examination. Any person violating the oath herein provided for shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor: Provided, The Committee be, and are hereby, authorized in their discretion, to disclose such as they deem proper, and the public welfare may demand. “Sec. 9. That the Board of Regents and the Superintendent of the State Hospital for the Insane shall have the right to be present in person and to be represented by attorney at any session or sessions at which testimony is taken by the Committee: Provided , That the Board of Regents and the Superintendent and their counsel shall not divulge anything heard by them in said investigation; and in case of a violation of this Act, said Committee shall have the right to punish any violators as for contempt of court, by a fine of not less than five nor more than fifty dollars: Provided, further, That the Committee may, in their discretion, remove the seal of secrecy as to any or all of said officers. “Sec. 10. That said Committee is hereby authorized and empow¬ ered to employ a stenographer or stenographers, and any other 8 person or persons the Committee may consider necessary, for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of this Act. “Sec. ii. That the said Committee shall, as soon as practicable, organize by election of a chairman and secretary from their number; that the sum of three thousand dollars, if so much be necessary, be and the same is hereby, appropriated to defray the expenses of the said Committee, and the Treasurer of the State is hereby authorized and required to pay the said sum, or any part thereof, upon a warrant or warrants drawn by the secretary of said Committee. “Sec. 12a. No one shall be held to answer to any criminal charge or indictment by reason of testimony given by himself or herself as provided hereunder, nor shall any testimony given hereunder by any witness be used in any subsequent prosecution against said any witness: Provided, however, That this section shall not be deemed to prevent prosecution for perjury. “Sec. 12. That each member of said Committee shall receive five dollars per day, and five cents per mile for each mile traveled while engaged in the business of said Committee; that each witness sum¬ moned to appear before said Committee shall, while in attendance thereon, receive the sum of two dollars per day, besides five cents per mile for each mile traveled going to and returning from the meeting of said Committee. This investigation shall begin not later than April 1, 1909. “Sec. 13. This Act shall take effect immediately upon its approval by the Governor. “Approved the 27th of February, A. D. 1909.” The Chairman—Yesterday at a meeting of the Commission, a resolution was passed, which is as follows: “Mr. Carey moved that tomorrow the Commission take such testimony from the officers of the State Hospital for the Insane as does not bear upon any of the charges that have been made against the said institution.” The Chairman—Gentlemen, we are here to ask the Board of Regents and the Superintendent to give us the reasons which prompted them in asking for the investigation, and at our sugges¬ tion, at this point, we want to go over the situation in a general way, that is, the situation as to the equipment and the plant which you have here, the organization and the treatment of patients, and for the present we will not consider the complaints that have been made, the idea being to give a general idea of the situation, what you have to work with, and after that we will take in detail the complaints. 9 Mr. Carey—Mr. Chairman, I suggest at this point that you ought to state to these gentlemen what the charges are so as to give them a general intimation as to what charges have been made against the institution, so that they may be getting themselves in shape to show their side of it when those charges are reached, and I suggest that the Chairman briefly state the nature of those and the action of the Commission on yesterday as to the taking up of those charges, that is to say, that the parties making the charges will first be heard and the Commission will have the opportunity to examine them, and the authorities of the Asylum will then have an opportunity to reply to those charges. I would prefer that method. It is the usual one in taking up charges against any one. I think it is due to the board and to the officers that they should know at this point the nature of those charges, so that they can be getting their side of the case in shape. Dr. Babcock—As I understand it, the Board of Regents and the Superintendent asked for this investigation. We had, we considered, good and sufficient reasons for the investi¬ gation, regardless of any charges, and before we are officially informed of any charges, we would request the privilege of stating seriatim the reasons why we asked for this investigation. Subse¬ quently we will be glad to take up the charges and' reply to them, but unbiased by any charges, I think we should have the privilege of stating the reasons which induced the Board of Regents and the Superintendent to ask for this investigation. Mr. Carey—We have those reasons in writing, or do you prefer to state them? Dr. Babcock—I would prefer to state them. Mr. Carey—I move that we hear from them. Carried. Mr. Gooding—Dr. Babcock, who is familiar with all the questions • that have come up in the past and who has everything in hand will represent the Board of Regents in the matter, before the Chairman and this Committee. He has familiarized himself with all the facts, and is more familiar with the conditions than we are as members of the board. Dr. Babcock will explain the situation. Dr. Babcock—Mr. Chairman, I desire before I begin any remarks I may have to make to this Commission to apologize because I am somewhat unprepared to go seriatim into this matter, as you have kindly given me the privilege to do. IO First, I will do the best I can to make a clear statement on behalf of the Board of Regent officers here as to the real situation here. You gentlemen will please get clearly in mind that the State Hospital for the Insane of South Carolina is today the result of the honest efforts of three generations 'of South Carolinians. The institution was started in a small way, in a feeble way, and was a pioneer. The founders of the institution, the two men, Farrer and Crafts, who had the institution incorporated by the Legislature, did not live to see the result of their labors. One died in 1824, the other in 1826, and the institution was opened in 1828. Their work was taken up by a Board of Regents in an experi¬ mental way, and for nearly ten years the institution was an experi¬ ment. There were times when the board was so much disheartened with their work that they were willing to give it up. It was carried on finally by Governor Hamilton’s giving to the board all that remained of his contingent fund, but Dr. Trezevant, who was with it from the beginning, one of the first regents, and one of our best physicians, said that from the start the institution was always handicapped, that it never received the support either of the public or of the General Assembly, that although it started out as a pioneer, that adjacent States soon surpassed it in many points of excellence. The institution was started on a four-acre lot here in the northeast corner of Columbia, and to that small nucleus at our decennial period additions were made until about 1848, twenty years after it w T as opened, it had outgrown its location, and the question then came up whether this Asylum should be moved into the country, and from 1848 to 1856 that matter divided the physicians, split the regents, and the Legislature listened, and finally in 1856 the Legislature ordered that the institution should be stationary, that buildings should be erected across Pickens street to the east of the original building. That step, in 1856, made our institution a civic institution, and Dr. Trezevant had taken the side that it was better to sell out this plant and go to the country from three to four miles out. He had several locations in view, but he was defeated in his project, and the institution was anchored in Columbia. These two wings, these two buildings here, were built before the war, and the recent extension in this wing was built in Republican times. I don’t think that it is worth while, Mr. Chairman, to go into the personnel of the officials through these various periods, but briefly 11 the most important regulation that was effected during the Republi¬ can regime was the establishment in 1867 of the State County System. Up to that time the institution had pay patients and pauper patients. The money accruing from pay patients was applied to the pauper pati'ents, and what was over, the balance, had to be made up by the counties, but that system was never saisfacory, and in Republican times State care was inaugurated. Now, in the history of Asylum administration, that was a great advantage. The State of New York, about 1865, also took up State care, and one would suppose from the advertising that charity administrators in New York have gotten from this, that this State got the State care system from New York, and that that was the first State that had ever inaugurated it, but in that matter South Carolina was pioneer. In 1878 buildings were started on this system—in 1878, 1880, 1882, and this building was built in 1885. During that time the Board of Regents had succeeded in procuring three or four farms lying back here. Major Gooding was then a member of the board. They got the Wigg farm, the Black farm, the Parker farm, and down as late as 1896, they got this Wallace prop¬ erty. In 1903 they secured the Jones land, in 1904 the Seegers property, and in 1905 the Weir property. That represents the slow evolution of the Hospital. Some of you gentlemen may have had the honor of being members of the General Assembly in 1896, when the Wallace property was purchased, a hundred and ten acres with their house was bought for $27,000.00. That cost the State of South Carolina four thousand dollars a year for six years, the balance being paid by a private fund which had been raised by private subscription by Mrs. Dix, a friend of the insane throughout the world, but the cost to the taxpayers of South Carolina of this land was four thousand dollars a year for six years, and six per cent, on the mortgage which was carried. In 1868, Dr. Parker applied to the General Assembly to erect a brick building free from the danger of fire for negro men. That bill was railroaded by the Superintendent and the Board of Regents for twenty-nine years. That pathetic appeal went up to your predecessors to take these colored men out of wooden shacks and give them at least a brick building. 12 In 1897, the Legislature appropriated $7,000 to begin the building. There was no architect, there was no contractor, because it was the purpose of the Board of Regents to make every cent of that appro¬ priation apply to the long desired purpose. The building got in the air and the appropriation was exhausted. Governor Ellerbe came to the relief of the board, and said, you have waited twenty-nine years for this. You will have to put it under roof, and I will be responsible with you to the General Assembly. That was done. When the General Assembly met they looked into the matter and appropriated $13,000.00 towards the building. So that building which stands out there today cost the State of South Carolina $21,000.00. With the gain of this Wallace property the institution for the first time reached the position in which it was able to give to its patients some degree of privacy. Up to that time it had been a diversion of the negroes of Columbia to sit and gaze at insane white women. That disgrace was wiped out. The large building that was on that Wallace property was called the Dix cottage for the woman who had raised this $3,500.00. which we had always considered the entering wedge bv which the regents were enabled to purchase that property. But the white women have always outnumbered the rest of the population, and in 1904 they were so crowded that the Board of Regents built this two-story building for violent white women, and after that was finished, in 1907 this north building here was begun. In 1903 they built this building for white men. This north building here was only occupied in February of this year. It may be a little tedious to listen to this statement of bald facts, gentlemen, but the evolution of the Asylum has been very slow. One who has not studied into its history is rather inclined to criticise adversely many things that we have. The holding of this land is a proposition, the holding of farming lands so valuable almost within the corporate limits of Columbia is a matter for com¬ mon criticism, and propositions have been made at various times to dispose of this property. Of course, that is within the power of the Legislature, and I suppose it is within the duty of this Commis¬ sion to consider that question. I only want to ask you to remember that this property has been accumulated only with the very greatest effort on the part of the Board of Regents and resident officers, and I pray that you will not !3 commit yourselves to the policy of disposing of any of our present holdings, any of the present holdings of the State Hospital for the Insane until you have weighed it most carefully. Such lands as you now have must within the lifetime of the younger members of your Commission be absolutely necessary for some of the dependent classes in South Carolina. I say that after long study and deep reflection, and if there was to be only one thing that I might make an appeal to you for, it would be to handle that problem of the selling of any portion of the present holdings in real estate of this institution to proceed with the greatest caution, because your successors and my successors will in time need every available inch of it. These remarks, Mr. Chairman, lead up to the specific purposes for which the Board of Regents and the Superintendent asked for this investigation. When we first asked for this investigation we were very much in hopes that the investigation might be held during the session of the Legislature, that you gentlemen might be so thoroughly informed yourselves of the needs of this institution, or the increasing needs of this institution, that you could go before your appropriation com¬ mittees and procure such means as might relieve us of some of the pressure in some of the several departments which are embraced under the heads I am about to mention. Unfortunately, such an investigation was hot held, and so we are set back for a whole year, and we have over fifteen hundred patients crowding into a space which ought not to be allowed for but one thousand. That is, we have fifty per cent, more than we are able to take care of, than a good hospital administration ought to allow. We find ourselves today in such a position that in my humble opinion it is the religious duty of our Board of Regents to say that not another negro woman, not another white man, nor negro man shall be admitted to the State Hospital for the Insane until the Legislature has provided for their proper housing. That is the condition that you are facing today, gentlemen, that is the condition that we all ought to have faced during the session of the Legislature, and that it was not faced is not the fault of the Board of Regents nor of the Superintendent. I 4 On the first day of January, 1908, there were in this institution 1 ,3 77 patients : White men. 319 White women. 473 Colored men. 292 Colored women. 293 On January 1, 1909, there were: White men. 331 White women. 499 Colored men. 330 Colored women. 302 Making a total of.1,462 On April 27, 1909, there were : White men. 354 White women. 506 Colored men. 335 Colored women. l. 317 This is, on the first of January, 1908, there were 1,377 patients; on the first of January, 1909, there were 1,462 patients; and on April 27, 1909, there were 1,512 patients. I beg you to remember— Mr. Carey—That is.now? Dr. Babcock—That is today, sir. I beg you to remember that is fifty per cent, more than we have proper accommodations for. That is about five hundred more than we have proper accommodations for. Mr. Hardin—Five hundred? Dr. Babcock—More than we ought to be called upon to handle, and that no other State in the Union would take. I have been up at Staunton, Virginia, where a doctor friend of mine had a wife in a state of violent mania. He appealed to Dr. Blackwood and begged him to make room for his unfortunate wife. He replied that he had his full quota and could not receive another woman. He said, “I cannot receive another patient until a vacancy occurs, and if a vacancy occurs in the next week or the next month I will receive her,” and he said that and he refused to receive her. Gentlemen, this institution has a unique record. I want you to get that into your heads. This institution refuses no one. In the time that I have been here, seventeen and one-half years, not five i5 patients that have been brought to this institution have been turned away. I had five patients brought in here one afternoon, when Dr. -was there. He said that of the five patients that had applied he would send all away but one, and that he would receive but that one. Gentlemen, I have told some of you, I have defined this institu¬ tion to some of you in bald English, the State Hospital for the Iusane of South Carolina is a dumping ground of every form of humanity that is undesirable in any community. We receive feeble, broken-down old men and old women, who have worn out their welcome in their homes for no other reason under the sun than that they are untidy, and in South Carolina that has been a good and sufficient reason why they should be sent to the Asylum. Our patients are not picked. We take them all. Mr. Bates—Is that left to your discretion? Dr. Babcock—It is, but I have not turned away three patients since I have been here. We take them and do the best we can, if we have to crowd them until they cut one another’s throats. That is the record of the institution; but instead of getting any credit for what it has done, any credit for carrying this burden, some discriminating man says the Asylum has a high mortality. That is true, gentlemen, but you let the doctors go to the front gate and pick out such patients as are going to live three or four years, then you will indeed see a low mortality. I have had them to come in here and die in half an hour. Dr. Griffin complained of it, that they would come in here and die in twenty-four hours. They have died between the station and the entrance to this institution. The statutes will have to take care of this. With the means at our hands, with the means provided by the Legislature, we have done the best we could. I am not speaking for myself. I am speaking as much for my predecessors as I am for my associates today. Mr. Bates—Isn’t there another class that ought not to be here— inebriates ? Dr. Babcock—Nearly every session of the Legislature some mem¬ ber has come to me and said the State is imposed upon in receiving drunkards. The asylum is no place for them. I said, “I am with you, sir.” He says, “I will introduce a bill prohibiting their reception into the Asylum.” I said, “Very good, sir. That will be very satis¬ factory.” i6 Mr. Carey—Excuse me, one minute. It seems to me that all that the doctor is saying ought to go into this record as testimony, and that is what we will have to ask. I would suggest that the doctor give us briefly the reasons why they asked for this investigation, and that we defer any further testimony in order to save double printing. We are limited in our appropriation. Dr. Babcock—I don’t think anything has gone into this that I will not be glad to swear to. Mr. Carey—I want it in your testimony, every word that you are saying. Dr. Babcock—If it will make testimony, I will be very glad to make an oath to it after I am through. Mr. Carey—I think the proper way to bring this out is by question and answer, and we could make up our report better. The Chairman—As I understand Dr. Babcock, the statement here is simply a statement of the conditions that call for an examination, but you claim that this is going too far ? Mr. Carey—I think the statement is going too far. The motion was that we examine the officers upon matters not involved in the charges, and while I don’t mean to cut the doctor off at all, because this is very interesting to me, and I am satisfied it is to the whole Commission, but I wanted to make the statement that it would be preferred in the form of testimony, and if the doctor will be a little brief on the reasons, in order that we can get right down to the testimony, we will not have so big a record. Dr. Babcock—I was about to take up these several items when the doctor asked me the question. Dr. Dick—Maybe that question about the inebriates was one of the reasons that made you ask for this thing? Dr. Babcock—Possibly. Mr. Hardin—I recall you spoke just now of a good many people being sent here. Mr. Bates—I understood the doctor was making a survey of the whole proposition, and then was going to state why he called for the investigation. The Chairman—It seems that the doctor’s suggestion that when he finish he make oath to it, is all that will be necessary. Mr. Carey—I don’t regard that as testimony. The Chairman—It is not at present, but when he finishes it is suggested that he make an oath to it. i7 Mr. Carey—I think this ought to be carried out as nearly as pos¬ sible as a legal investigation. That was my understanding last night. I am perfectly willing to hear the doctor on anything he wishes to say, but the Commission very well knows that we are very limited in the amount of the appropriation, and that everything we take is expected to be printed, and if we print this statement we certainly will want to examine the doctor afterwards and it will be double printing. That was my reason for making the point. Now, that resolution last night, and our interpretation of it, simply calls for the reasons for asking for the investigation. The Chairman—Doctor, vour statement will not be very long, I suppose ? Dr. Babcock—I will be very glad to take up these. I preferred to offer my written letter. Pardon me for not going faster. Mr. Carey—I didn’t mean to cut you off. I stated my reasons. Dr. Babcock—These introductory remarks led up to the several reasons for which the Board of Regents and the Superin¬ tendent wished, not this year or last year, but for many years, for a little more active co-operation on the part of the members of the General Assembly in handling the several difficult problems of the State Hospital for the Insane. The first eight of these reasons were stated in the centennial issue of the News and Courier of 1903. One additional one was added in Watson’s Handbook of South Carolina, the edition of 1907, and were appended to a study of the history of the institution. The following are the reasons given: First. That is has become the policy of the State to maintain in Columbia a large central colony for the insane of both races. Second. That “State Care’’ is a better system than was afforded by the old method of County support. Third. That the separate or cottage plan of buildings or wards is better suited in our climate to the needs of the insane than are large, conglomerate buildings. Fourth. That the separation from the insane (properly speaking), of such classes as the inebriates, idiots, epileptics, etc., who are now associated with them, would prove advantageous to all. Fifth. That the improvement of the county alms houses by hav¬ ing hospital wards, etc., would relieve this institution from receiving so many helpless dotards. Sixth. The establishment of a farm colony for epileptics, a school 2— A. i8 for the feeble-minded and a hospital for inebriates, should form part of the future policy of the State. Seventh. That the erection of separate wards for the violent insane is desirable. Eighth. That the establishment of a farm colony for the chronic insane is an important problem for future consideration. Ninth. The means for separating the tuberculous from the non- tuberculous is at the present time a question of vital importance. Within the last year and a half the attention of the officers of this institution has been directed to the prevalence in our State of a fatal form of disease known as pellagra. This disease is becoming so common among us that I have twenty- three cases today among the negro women, and there are three cases among the white men in the institution. The Board of Regents has done all in its power t© secure th« co-operation of the United States' government in investigating this fatal malady. Eleventh. By reason of the overcrowding to which I have called your attention we are today forced to place patients in cells, and that, briefly, is inhuman. Twelfth. The dietary of the institution has not been satisfactory for some time, due to the fact that the population has far outgrown our kitchen and dining room accommodations, and the overcrowding is the fault in the dining rooms and kitchens as it it is in the wards and dormitories. The regents and officers here have felt that the appropriations given us by the General Assembly, in comparison with the appropriations allowed for the purpose of the insane in adjacent States, are meagre. The per capita cost in this institution last year was $109.30, and more than that is allowed in most counties of the State for the diet¬ ing of prisoners. At the Morganton Asylum in North Carolina, their per capita is $155.00, and the Raleigh Asylum is $165.00. Thus, you see, they get very much more than we do for the patients entrusted to us. The present condition of the laws of the State requires a revision, and I most earnestly hope that the legal members of your Commis¬ sion will take up this question. The regents have done the best they could with the money to pay the employees sufficient for their services. i9 Our payroll will bear witness to the fact that the pay allowed to nurses is meagre. The medical staff is too small for the number of patients. Each assistant physician has more than he can carry, and for several years the duties of assistant physician for one of the departments has devolved upon the Superintendent, interfering very seriously with his administrative duties. The medical department, because of a lack of money, has fallen very much behind, and our present heating plant and boilers are in an unsatisfactory condition. For the proper handling of so many patients this institution should be provided with an ice plant. The fire protection of the institution has been very greatly improved, and with a small appropriation, can be rendered entirely adequate. The present water supply is gotten from the city. Last summer the Board of Regents abolished entirely the use of surface wells and in that way has promoted very much the health of the institution. I have already referred to the criticism about the use of the valua¬ ble lands here for farming purposes, but through Mr. Bunch’s fore¬ sight and ability a sand hill farm has been brought to a high degree of efficiency, and we are enabled to maintain the stock here and cattle in a satisfactory way, and were it not for this land it would be impossible. The plant which you are called upon to investigate consists of 360 acres of land, upon which I should put a valuation of $400,000.00; and the buildings, I think, roughly, are worth $600,000.00. So that this plant represents a money value to the State of South Carolina of one million dollars in round numbers. These are some of the general heads, Mr. Chairman, that the board has wished me to call your attention to, and to invite your especial attention to those headings as arising from suggestions made by myself. I am sorry to have taken up so much of your time. Mr. Carey—I move that Dr. Babcock be requested to furnish to the Chairman of this Commission a statement of the reasons why the institution asked for this investigation. Dr. Babcock—I have twenty-one reasons here. Mr. Carey—The reasons which the doctor has assigned for asking for this inquiry I move that the doctor be requested to hand 20 to our Chairman and this Commission, so that it may go into the record, and so that the Commission may know exactly what they are asking us to go into. Dr. Dick—We have got those reasons. Mr. Carey—We have got them in a long statement. My object is to get them in a short form so that we may have in the concrete the points that they want us to go into. Mr. Carey—The doctor has made his statement. My opinion is that when we make this report to the Legislature, if we simply state that Dr. Babcock requested us to take up the hearing for twenty- three reasons, that would be insufficient. This is all we need and then we can go into the testimony. I would like to have it in brief form so that the Legislature can follow the matters looked into. Dr. Dick—I don’t think what Dr. Babcock has said is one whit too full and I would like for the whole thing to go into print. Mr. Carey—I don’t object to that. I would like to see any objec¬ tions or specifications in short form. Mr. Sawyer—Will all this be put in the final record? Mr. Carey—That is for us to determine when we go to make up the record. The Chairman—The motion, as I understand it, is that the doctor be requested to make this tomorrow. Mr. Harrison—I second the motion. Carried. The Chairman—I would like to ask whether the Chairman or other members of the Board of Regents would like to say anything in a general way, particularly along the line that Dr. Babcock has been following. Mr. Gooding—I don’t know that the individual members of the board have anything to say at this time. The ground has been covered by Dr. Babcock as far as he has gone, and it will only be taking up the time of your Commission, and he will answer for the Board of Regents. I don’t know that any other member of the board desires to make a statement. Dr. Ray—This board has made some recommendations to the Legislature and they have taken adverse action on it, and we wish they were more familiar with the situation. I wish that the entire Legislature could go through this institution as they did at the Citadel and the other State institutions. 21 I want the Legislature to be in position to act on the conditions here, and I do not believe they are now. For instance, the last appropriation we asked for was that $3,5°o. 0 °, I believe. Then we asked for a farm in the country here to put the tuberculosis patients in, and we were denied that. That is one reason I think the Legislature is not familiar with the situation out here. And that is the reason I wanted this investigation, so that they could form a distinct idea, and know of the conditions when we make recommendations. That is my reason. Mr. Carey—I hope I will not be considered officious in this matter, but I am so used to proceeding in the court house by rule, that I would much prefer to proceed that way here. We are very much in the nature of a court here, and I have got one more motion to make, and then I don’t propose to have much more to say, because I understand this meeting to be in the nature of an outline of what we are going to do and that we have got to inquire into. I move that at this point the Chairman appoint a committee of two to furnish Dr. Babcock and to each member of the Board of Regents a statement in writing of the charges which have been made against them without explaining the nature of any of the charges now, but that they be handed to them. This committee will have to prepare them so that they will be in position to know the nature of the charges against them, and that the thing be not delayed by waiting to read them, I move that we simply hand them to these gentlemen. Carried. The Chair appointed Mr. Bates and Mr. Carey to make this state¬ ment. The Chairman—Is it your purpose to go further into this matter this morning? You have covered the purpose outlined in your reso¬ lution ? Mr. Hardin—If any of the regents have anything to state we would be glad to hear from them. The Chairman—As we proceed from this point we will proceed as outlined yesterday, and I would suggest that we have an execu¬ tive session, and further consider our times of meeting and place of meeting, and the work from this point on, if that is agreeable to the Committee. I would like to ask Dr. Babcock if there are any reasons why it would not be desirable for us to meet here. Dr. Babcock—None at all. I think the Board of Regents of the institution would be glad for you to do it. 22 The Chairman—We appreciate the courtesy. Dr. Babcock—There may some exigencies arise in which you may be asked to meet in the amusement hall upstairs temporarily and then come back here to this room later. You understand the reasons that might arise. The Chairman—How many of the board are here? Dr. Babcock—All except Capt. Iredell Jones, of Rock Hill. Mr. Glenn—I wish to make a statement. I would like to ask whether it will be necessary for the board to remain here. I live some distance from here. I have been very much interested, and as an individual member of the board I endorse what has been said by Dr. Babcock and Dr. Ray. I think the main reason though for the regents or for the Superin¬ tendent and Chairman of the Board of Regents calling for this meet¬ ing was because of certain rumors, that was the only purpose of the investigation. We would not have asked for it if it hadn’t been for these rumors that were brought out by a certain individual who was once an inmate here. Of course, the Board of Regents endorsed the action of our Chairman and the Superintendent in asking for this investiga¬ tion because of these rumors, and I am glad as an individual mem¬ ber of the board that this Commission is here and that the investiga¬ tion is being held. The reasons that Dr. Babcock gave, while we didn’t give them in as short a form as Mr. Carey wished, I think as you have requested, he will write out these reasons and hand them to you very soon. Now, what I want to know is, is it necessary for the Board of Regents to be here another day. If it is not, I wish to go home tomorrow or as soon as I can get off. The Chairman—The purpose of our executive session now is to decide as to our further proceedings, and we will let you know in a little while. We will ask Dr. Babcock to furnish us with each one of these reasons this afternoon, and that Mr. Bates and Mr. Carey get up the charges against them and furnish each one of them with a copy, as soon as they can. Mr. Carey—I move that the charges against the institution be first taken up in the order of proceedings when the Committee meets again. Carried. 23 Mr. Hardin—I move that a list of the witnesses be prepared and handed to the Board of Regents. The Chairman—The Committee has decided to furnish you with a list of the charges, and, as you understand, this investigation runs along two parallel lines, there are the reasons you stated this morning explaining why you asked for an investigation, and then there are some complaints that have been made. We will furnish you with a statement of what these complaints are. We will try to get it this afternoon, and tomorrow morning, if there are any wit¬ nesses here that made these complaints, we will take them up, and as soon as we get their names we will furnish you with a copy of them. I would suggest that the testimony of these witnesses in a general way covers the whole institution and management and we will sug¬ gest that the regents will probably want to be here. If there is any further information we can give the regents we will be very glad to do so. Mr. Carey—My reason for that was that after hearing the state¬ ment from you all, we were satisfied that the matters embraced in the charges would in all probability be such that we would save time by taking up the charges and let you make your defense covering the whole field; and we also thought that while the charges were being made, you would rather hear the charges before entering upon the matter of improvements. I am sure I would, and I think the Board of Regents would like to see the same course obtain. Dr. Ray—Will we be permitted to be represented ? Mr. Carey—By attorneys? Dr. Ray—Yes, sir. We would like to be present by representation. Mr. Harrison—I don’t think Mr. Ray understands you. You thought this was to be done in executive session. The testimony will be taken publicly. The public will be here, you and the public. Mr. Carey—I thought Dr. Ray wanted to know whether they would be entitled to counsel. Dr. Ray—Yes, sir. Mr. Carey—The Act provides that the Board of Regents, if they desire, may be entitled to counsel, but if that happens the other side will also apply for counsel, and we had taken the precaution to select a man or men to bring out the testimony ourselves, but if you all want it we haven’t the slightest objection. If you demand counsel, those who are pushing these charges will 24 also demand them, and our idea was that we would bring out the truth for ourselves from both sides. Mr. Sawyer—We have only selected one of our number to question the witnesses. Mr. Carey—If they prefer outside counsel the other side will probably ask for counsel. Mr. Gooding—The board would prefer to be represented by coun¬ sel as this is a court, and with a lawyer we could carry on the pro¬ ceedings in a better form. Mr. Carey—They have that right undoubtedly under the Act. The Chairman—I don’t know in just what sense you mean to say this is a court. We are simply a legislative committee to inquire into the situation out here. We are hardly a court. The Chairman—If there are no further matters to come up we will adjourn. Dr. Babcock—In a private way, as Superintendent of the institu¬ tion, I would like to say to the Commission that the general moral discipline of the Asylum is very much weakened by the present condition, and whereas I do not wish at all to interfere with your proceedings or to make suggestions, yet for the good of the patients the sooner we can get through with this inquiry, this waiting for months for it has upset the patients themselves, has upset the employees, has made it very difficult for us to handle the affairs here. There is a spirit of unrest throughout the institution. If any of you have ever tried to administer a big corporation you can have some idea of the difficulties; the discharging of an employee or anything of that sort now is fraught with all sorts of complications. So, not to spare me or to spare the Board of Regents or to spare anybody, we wish the whole thing through, and if you can manage by any means to relieve us of the tension under which we have tried to live for the past four months here, I hope you will get through with this investigation as soon as you can. Mr. Bates—That is one reason why it may not be advisable for us to meet here. Dr. Babcock—There is just one little point which I thought of as a matter for the Board of Regents to decide rather than your Committee, and it is to what extent is it wise for us to allow news¬ papers to be circulated on the wards among the patients. We have a particular class of men who are always getting into 25 excitement and the circulation of all these papers among them stirs them up. The point I raise is whether the Board of Regents is not justified in ordering me to see that no newspapers are circulated among the patients now. In the situation we are now in it upsets them entirely. Dr. Sawyer—If you think it advisable I should think you ought to do it. Ordinarily I would do it, but this concerns the patients. Mr. Carey—As far as I am concerned I don’t think they ought to see them. Of course, that is for you all. Do you think our meeting here would tend to disturb them ? Dr. Babcock—I don’t think so. I think it is much better. If you want an officer, an employee or anybody, you can get them. I have to make my rounds and the doctors have to do so. If you go to the State House we will be embarrassed here. I don’t suppose the Commission has passed upon it. The Chairman—No, sir. Dr. Babcock—I wanted you to know how I felt about the matter. I will refer it to the Board of Regents, and will let them pass upon it. I didn’t want to act without your knowledge. The Chairman—The Commission stands adjourned until tomor¬ row morning. Columbia, S. C., 28 April, 1909. The Commission was called to order by the Chairman. Present: The members of the Commission, the Superintendent and the Board of Regents. The Chairman proceeded to swear in Mr. McGrady as Marshal of the Commission and Mr. A. D. McFaddin the Stenographer of the Commission. The Chairman—The witnesses ask that their identity be kept from the public. Dr. Sawyer—I would like to have the minutes of the first meeting read. The minutes were read by the Secretary. Mr. Carey—That matter has been left open until we see whether they are going to demand counsel in this investigation. The matter was brought up. The Chairman—This had better be considered in executive session. The Commission thereupon went into executive session. 26 EXECUTIVE SESSION. Mr. Carey—We decided that we would appoint a man to conduct the examination if counsel was not demanded, and for that reason there has been no report of it at all in the minutes until we see whether they are going to demand counsel. If they have, of course, they will conduct the examination. When those gentlemen come in, as I understand the matter, it is understood that if they do not demand counsel then Mr. Bates and I will take charge and put the questions in the main examina¬ tion, with the right to any member of the Committee to ask any question he pleases. I would suggest that that not go into the record until it is ascertained whether it will be necessary or not. There was one other thing I want to settle. They want to know whether they will be allowed the publication of the charges at this time. I think that is a matter we ought to pass upon while we are in executive session. Mr. Sawyer—Until we hear from the rest I don’t think we ought to publish them yet. This has been the first time I have seen them. I don’t know what they are. I don’t know who is making them. Mr. Carey—I move that we pass over the question of publication of these charges until some time later and before the adjournment of the executive session today. Carried. Mr. Hardin—I want to know the views of the Committee with regard to employing an expert to audit the books of this institution. I don’t know whether it would be wise or not to do it. Dr. Sawyer—Let us come back to the question of withholding the identity of the witnesses from publication. Dr. Dick—I move that the names and identity of the witnesses be withheld from the public prints. Dr. Sawyer—I move that this matter be passed over for the present. Dr. Dick—I move that the Chairman instruct the reporters to withhold the names of all the witnesses until further notice and then we can take this matter up afterwards. Dr. Sawyer—I move that we withhold the charges for the present from newspaper publication, the charges, names and identity of the witnesses, and their testimony. Mr. Hardin—I move to amend so that we will publish the charges and the names of the parties. 27 Mr. Carey—I move that the sessions be made public and the charges published, and the names of the parties making them, that the witnesses be sworn and the names published. I am in favor, of open sessions. Dr. Sawyer—I second Mr. Hardin’s motion. Mr. Hardin—I move that the charges and those making the charges, the- names of the witnesses and the testimony be allowed to be published. Dr. Sawyer—I second the motion. Mr. Bates—I move to amend so as to prevent the publication of the names and identity of the witnesses, who are inmates or ex-in¬ mates. Just say, a witness, a former inmate, or a witness, a former employee, or a witness now employed in the institution testified as follows. Or insert instead of that the relation that the witness sustains to the institution. On the motion of Mr. Bates the vote was as follows: Ayes—Messrs. Harrison, Dick, Bates and Christensen. Nays—Messrs. Carey, Hardin and Sawyer. Carried. Mr. Hardin—[ would like to ask the Chairman if the amendment has been adopted. I call for the vote on my motion. It has not been lost. Mr. Carey—I move as a substitute for the motion of Senator Hardin, as amended by the amendment of Senator Bates, that this Committee do not allow published the charges against the institu¬ tion, or the names of those preferring the charges, or the names of the witnesses giving evidence, or the evidence given unless herein permitted by the action of this Committee. Mr. Sawyer—I second the motion. Mr. Carey—I simply make this motion. I am willing for full publication, or I am willing for the publication of nothing. Mr. Carey calls for the ayes and nays. The vote was as follows: Ayes—Messrs. Carey, Hardin and Sawyer. Nays—Messrs. Harrison, Dick, Bates and Christensen. On the original vote, as amended, the vote was as follows: Ayes—Mr. Harrison, Mr. Dick, Mr. Bates and Mr. Christensen. Nays—Mr. Carey, Mr. Hardin and Mr. Sawyer. Mr. Harrison—I move that the Committee extend to the minority the right to publish the vote on these three motions. Unanimously carried. The executive session thereupon adjourned. 28 Columbia, S. C., 28 April, 1909. The Commission, having been in executive session, now resumes the open session. Mr. Carey—Under the action of the Committee yesterday, direct¬ ing Senator Bates and myself to furnish copies of the charges grow¬ ing out of the complaints, I ask permission of the Chairman to hand each of the gentlemen a copy. The Chairman—Certainly. Mr. Carey thereupon presented a copy to each of the members of the Board of Regents and to the Superintendent. Mr. Carey—There is one matter that I think ought to be stated and I feel we should state for Senator Bates and myself, because of ctie peculiar position we occupy in this investigation, and I ask permission of the Chair to state it now. The Chairman—Certainly. Mr. Carey—It is this. This Committee has requested us to take charge of the legal phases of this matter in so far as it tends to expedite the matter and dispose of the hearing, probably from the fact that we belong to the legal profession, but we both want to state right here that as we occupy the position of judges in this matter we want it to be understood especially by the Committee, by the regents, or anybody else embraced in those charges, that we have no feeling in the matter whatever. We simply propose to act with a view of bringing out the truth, and we will be glad to bring out anything that makes for any of the gentlemen as well as makes against them. We don’t want you to look upon us in the way of prosecuting attorneys, but simply as in the aid of the Committee, in bringing out any matter. Any member of the board or any member of the Committee, or the Superintendent, has the right to ask any question, or we will gladly ask any question they want, because we realize the fact that we have to vote on these matters before it ends, and we propose to accommodate ourselves entirely to this position notwithstanding the fact that we appear as conducting the investigation. I simply wanted to make that statement, Mr, Chairman. Mr. Gooding—Is it the aim of fhe board to go into the examina¬ tion of witnesses at this stage of the proceeding? Dr. Babcock—I desire to offer the following paper on behalf of the regents. 29 We have received a copy of the charges. We think it will be in the interest of fairness to give us time to consider them. We further insist upon the names of all the witnesses that have been subpoenaed, and of all parties who are bringing charges. I received a copy of the charges last night. The assistant has just received his and the other members of the board. We are not ready, Mr. Chairman, to go into this matter in as intelligent a way as we desire to do upon this short notice, and we would respectfully ask that you allow us sufficient time to familiarize ourselves with the charges that have been preferred. Mr. Carey—Mr. Chairman, I haven’t got the slighest desire in this case to rush the gentlemen in until they are ready. I am sure the other gentlemen feel the same way about it. I made that motion yesterday to get up these specifications because it appeared that these gentlemen had waived their right, under the Act of the Legislature in this matter, to have counsel of their own. I had supposed that they might have counsel here who would ask for the very thing that has been asked for. They, not having done so, and the Committee having asked Senator Bates and myself to inform them of the nature of the charges, we have done so as best we could, and they are now in their hands. Dr. Babcock—We think it will be in the interest of fairness to have time to consider them. We further insist upon the names of all the witnesses who have been subpoenaed, and of all the parties who are bringing the charges. Mr. Carey—As to that I desire simply to state this. We did not undertake to draw formal indictments in this matter for two or three reasons. In the first place, it would cover half a volume to put down all the names and charges that have been handed in. We, therefore, selected out of those the pertinent charges, and we propose each day to subpoena a certain number of witnesses, and let the institution or those managing its affairs then know who the witnesses are. We don’t know how many of these witnesses we are going to get, nor how many we will decide to examine. We are limited in our appropriation to $3,000.00. Our idea was each day those charged with the matter would notify them of the names of the witnesses against them, and of the matters they would testify to, and then if they wanted further time to look into the matters to be testified to by the witnesses it 30 would be granted by the Committee, and in that way it would amount to giving the gentlemen what they now ask for. If we give the names now, we will give them the names of those who will not be used, and that is the reason why I think it would be very difficult, at the outset of this matter, to furnish them with the names of the witnesses. That is in accordance with the practice in the court house. Witnesses are brought forward and put on the stand and the parties are then advised as to who they are, and there is only one class of cases in which the witnesses are furnished that I know of, and that is murder cases. As the witnesses are summoned and before they are examined we have not the slightest objection to handing to the gentlemen the names of the witnesses who will be examined on that day, but to furnish them now with all the witnesses who will be used during the investigation or who will be subpoenaed during the investigation would be impossible. I have no hesitation in saying that there are only three witnesses here today whom we expect to examine, and those are * * *. We haven’t the slightest objection to stating to you in advance the names of the witnesses that will be examined, but it is utterly impossible to give now the names of those who will be examined, because we don’t know. We haven’t gotten together the other witnesses. So far as I am concerned, if these gentlemen want time to con¬ sider these, time to go over these things with counsel or otherwise, I am perfectly willing to give them all the time they wish. I note the objection that they are not now ready. Mr. Gooding—We will not ask for a longer time than ten days. Dr. Babcock—As far as I am concerned I would like to get into it and get through with it. That is my position. If the Board of Regents want to adjourn until a later day it is all right. I have just got the charges, but as far as I am concerned I am ready to go on. The Chairman—Your request is that we adjourn to the 4th of May? Mr. Gooding—We will then be ready to answer the charges preferred, furnished yesterday by the Committee. Mr. Carey—Before making any motion to that effect I would like to know what the gentlemen do want. It is not the business of the Committee to require you to prove a negative by requiring you to produce evidence in advance of the charge. 3i The resolution already adopted is that the testimony against you will be first introduced, and then if you gentlemen want time to get ready to reply to it, the Committee will take pleasure in giving it to you. The only question is whether you want time to consider these matters before the testimony offered by those preferring the charges is introduced. Mr. Gooding—I would like to ask for information. The Chairman—If they want it we will be glad to give it. Mr. Gooding—Will we have an opportunity to cross-examine the witnesses at the first examination ? The Chairman—Certainly you will, now or later. Mr. Gooding—That is all we ask. Mr. Carey—You have the right to bring an attorney. Mr. Bates—We will ask any questions you suggest, that is, if you decide not to get an attorney and want the Committee to bring out the testimony. If you want time we are willing to give it. Speaking for the board, do you want that time ? Mr. Gooding—Yes, sir. Mr. Carey—I move that the Committee grant the time asked for by the board, and that this Committee meet here in this place on May 4, at 4 o’clock P. M., for the purpose of taking testimony. Mr. Sawyer—I second the motion. Mr. Carey—My motion is that when the Committee adjourn it adjourn to meet on the 4th of May. Carried. Mr. Carey—I think we ought to inform the gentlemen that up to this point there have been only three witnesses subpoenaed, and hereafter we will give you due notice when they are subpoenaed. I make a motion to that effect. Mr. Ray—Can you give the names of the parties who preferred the charges? Mr. Carey—I will come to that in a minute. I don’t know whether I know or not. I move, also, that as the witnesses who testify as to charges against the management of the institution are subpoenaed their names be furnished to the Chairman of the Board of Regents. That covers all the demands except as to the parties who are preferring the charges. Mr. Carey—So far as that point is concerned, I don’t know whether this Committee is in position to pass upon that question, 32 without knowing who the parties are. So far as I am concerned. I don’t know who they are. We have before us, Mr. Bates and I, from local men left with this Committee, the names of witnesses who would testify to certain matters. It does not appear that anybody is prosecuting the matter. The matter came up by a memorial being sent to the Legislature, which was afterwards withdrawn, and the institution itself, through Dr. Babcock, as I understand it, asked for it. The Chairman—And the Chairman of the Board of Regents. Mr. Carey—And it was passed by the Legislature on your motion. Dr. Ray—It would not have been had if we had not asked for it ? Mr. Carey—I don’t know whether you would have asked or not. So far as I am personally concerned, and I think I voice the senti¬ ment of the Committee, I have no reason for not stating who signed that memorial to the Legislature. Dr. Ray—I think we know who signed the memorial. Dr. Babcock—We would like to know officially. Mr. Carey—I am not making statements unless they are author¬ ized by the Committee. The Chairman—I would like to say that the memorial and the affidavits were put into my hands, and they were not offered to the Legislature because the institution asked for the investigation. Dr. Ray—The institution, yes, sir, asked for the investigation. There was an accumulation of evidence by some members of the General Assembly looking towards an investigation, and we had nothing to fear, and we then asked for an investigation. Had it not been for the memorial and for the act of some members of the General Assembly in accumulating testimony for the inves¬ tigation, I don't think the board would have asked for it. Mr. Carey—I don’t think the members had much to do with it until it was asked for. Dr. Ray—Some did, sir. I don’t accuse anybody, but we heard it. Mr. Carey—I think the Committee has shown its disposition to be fair. Dr. Ray—Certainly. I don’t deny that at all. Mr. Carey—I am drawing my motion to grant everything that we can grant, and I will further move, Mr. Chairman, that the names of the persons signing the memorial to the Legislature be also furnished to those gentlemen, and a copy thereof. That gives you all the requests. Dr. Sawyer—I am in favor of giving the names of everybody. 3d The Chairman—I would like to say that the memorial was put into my hands, and was withdrawn, and was never put before the Legislature, and I handed it to the Committee. It has not been offered in evidence, it is not a matter of record, and there is no one making charges. That is my understanding of the situation. Mr. Carey—My first motion was to give the time asked for. My second motion was that as the witnesses were subpoenaed that the names of the witnesses be given to the Chairman of the board and Dr. Babcock. My third motion was that a copy of the memorial to the Legisla¬ ture, asking for this investigation be given to the same gentlemen. Of course, a copy carries the name with it. The names of everybody else are given as witnesses. The memorial sets forth the whole thing. The Chairman—I would like to say, as the member who intro¬ duced the resolution in the Senate, that I would not consider Mr. Gibbes as the maker of the charges. He was not the one who brought the matter to my observation. Mr. Sawyer—I second the motion. I think it has not been put yet, about the witnesses. Carried unanimously. Mr. Gooding—The witnesses as subpoenaed? Mr. Carey—Yes; because we don’t know who we are going to subpoena. They have the right to cross-examine them on the stand, and they have all the right they want before they hear them. I don’t see how we can offer more than that. I have told them whom we had subpoenaed for today. As soon as we determine which witnesses will be brought here, we will furnish their names. The motion was carried. The names of the witnesses now subpoenaed are: Mr. Bates—I move that we adjourn. The Committee thereupon adjourned until 4 May, 1909, at 4 o’clock P. M. Columbia, S. C., 4 May, 1909. Pursuant to adjournment the Committee met today at the Asylum at 4 o’clock P. M. 3— A. 34 Present: The members of the Committee and the Board of Regents and the Superintendent. The Chairman called the Commission to order. Mr. Carey—I move that the Committee incur no further expense until we get through taking the testimony as to the charges pre¬ ferred against the institution. Mr. Hardin—I second the motion. Mr. Carey—Incur no further expense—incident to the taking of the testimony—that includes the witnesses, of course. Unanimously carried. Mr. Bates—I move that we adjourn until io o’clock tomorrow. Unanimously carried. The Committee thereupon adjourned until io o’clock A. M., 5 May, 1909. Columbia, S. C., 5 May, 1909. Pursuant to adjournment the Committee met today at 10 o’clock in the forenoon. Present: The members of the Commission and the Board of Regents, except Messrs. Dick and Sawyer. The Chairman called the Commission to order. Mr. Carey—Do you gentlemen want to file any reply to the charges ? Dr. Babcock—Just go into them. Before you begin the hearing I should like to make a statement. The Board of Regents and the resident officers recognize that it is their duty as well as their pleasure to have everything about the institution wide open to you, and I hope that you feel in your inves¬ tigation so far that no obstacle has been put in your way by any of us. Since it falls to my lot to represent the Board of Regents and the resident officers. I wish to call your attention, at the beginning of this inquiry, to the character of some of the evidence which will be brought before you. A former patient must necessarily give prejudiced testimony and we feel that you will recognize that. A discharged attendant, a discharged employee, or an employee who has been ordered to per¬ form certain duties and has refused is necessarily a prejudiced witness. Of course, these are mv opinions and you take them for what they 35 are worth, but I am writing this morning a communication which I will ask the privilege of having made a part of your record. [Dr. Babcock reads a letter from Dr. Wines.] Dr. Babcock—As I say, the regents and the resident officers wish to have this letter put in since Mr. Wines is an expert of your Com¬ mission, and we wish to have this letter incorporated in your proceedings. There are only two points here that I should like to dwell upon. In the first place, the course adopted of bringing discharged employees and former patients, for that is what it means, is not in accordance with the wishes of the regents; and in the second place the regents and the resident officers are not taking any steps from policy. Mr. Carey—I do not object to the letter being filed, but my position was that we are to take sworn testimony until that is closed. Do I understand that is what the doctor wants ? The Chairman—The proposition is before the Committee. Mr. Carey—It seems to me that it should be withheld until we get through with the witnesses. I just make that statement, as we have several witnesses that live out of town, and I want to insist that we examine them and take up these matters after the witnesses are gone. Mr. Hardin—I take it the Committee has not decided whether Mr. Wines would be here or not. The Committee has not yet decided. Mr. Carey—And it has already taken action that the first thing will be that we take the testimony, and we can take that up in executive session. Mr. -, sworn as a witness, testifies as follows: By Mr. Carey: Q. Where do you reside? A. Charleston. Q. What is your age now? A. Within a few months of 33, nearly 33. Q. Have you ever been an inmate of this institution? A. On twoi occasions. Q. When did you come here ? A. The first time was, I think it was a Fair Week, about Fair Week in 1900. The exact date I do not recollect. Q. Did you come here from Charleston County? A. I was a 36 patient from there, but I came down from Philadelphia where I was undergoing treatment in a sanitarium. Q. Were you committed, or come of your own accord? A. Com¬ mitted. Q. From Charleston County? A. Yes, sir, according to rtiy knowledge of that. It was all done by my relatives. Q. How long did you stay here? A. At that time, a year and a month, over a year. Q. Were you in a pretty bad condition when you came here? A. At first; yes, sir. Q. Were you committed as insane? A. That is my understand¬ ing of it. Q. What portion of the building did you occupy? A. Will you let me put this in, that I have never seen the commitment papers either time. Q. I am just asking for your understanding of how you got here. What part of the building were you put in? A. The first time? Q. Yes. A. I was on the second ward. I was afterwards moved to the fifth ward, and from that to the third, and then down again to the second. Q. How long did you stay here the first time? A. Something over a year, a little less than a month more than a year. Q. That was the first time? A. That was the first time. Q. How did you get out? Were you discharged? A. Well, sir, I was dismissed. After I got out, after the board meeting, but I don’t know the circumstances, but I know I went down and thanked two cousins for signing papers for me. Q. To get you out? A. To get me out. Q. How long did you stay out after you were released the first time? A. Five years. Q. Five? A. Five years. Q. And you came back the second time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Committed as you were before? A. The circumstances were these: I was at that time at Clifton Springs, New York. I was at Clifton Springs Sanitarium, a big hotel-like sanitarium, and I realized that I was all in, and I wired for my brother to come up and commit me here. I told him that was the only thing to do, which he did. Q. And you were received a second time? A. Second occasion. Q. How long did you stay then? A. Two years almost, I think. 37 Q. When were you released finally? A. 27th October, I think, of last year, 1908. 0 . While you were in here, Mr. -, did you see much of the other patients in the institution? A. Of course, a good deal. Q. You were thrown with them constantly? A. In certain ways, yes. 0 . On the same ward? A. On the same ward and with those on other wards, and in the yard. Sometimes I visited other wards. Q. On those wards are the better class of patients ? A. On the whole, yes. Q. The second was one of the best wards ? A. Yes, on the whole it is considered the best. Q. The best? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the ward known as the best ward? A. Known as the best. O. About how many of you were in that ward while you were there? A. I can’t state positively about that. It varied. I should say from twenty to twenty-five ordinarily. My memory, though, is not very distinct on that point. Q. How many nurses were assigned to that ward? A. Usually one to the ward. Q. Usually one? A. One. Q. Nurses and keepers are the same thing? A. Always known as nurses. They are about the same. Q. The same thing? A. Yes, sir. 0 . What keepers were in charge of the wards that you were in during the time you were here? A. There were various ones. They change them, you know, at certain intervals. I could not name all, but I could name some, if you wish. Q. Well, if you can name some, give us the names? A. First, there was Mr. Berry, who shortly afterwards left. I don’t know his initials, and Mr. Austin was on the ward. Mr. Stewart was on the ward, and Mr. Peter Brown was likewise on it, and Mr. Tidwell was on the ward. There was another Mr. Berry, and Mr. Kelley, and when I left Mr. Kennedy. I may have left out some. Q. You remember those names? A. I do remember those, sir. Q. What was the treatment, the general treatment of these nurses towards the patients in that ward ? A. On the whole pretty fair, but it varied with the nurses. Some of them were very objection¬ able. The others were considered pretty good fellows. 38 Q. Do you know of any specific instances in which any of these nurses mistreated patients? A. That I have observed on that ward by violence, do you mean? Q. Or any other way. Do you know of any assaults committed upon patients ? A. On that ward ? Q. Do you know of any on any other ward ? A. I witnessed one assault that was on the yard. O. Who was that assault made by? A. That assault was made by two keepers, Dickerson and J. S.-. O. Who was the assault made on ? A. Patient-. Q. Well, sir, what was the character of this assault? A. Patient - had gotten some way off, and he was down in the corner in the front yard, and apparently talking to people outside, really I suppose only imaginary people, and the'attendants went there to bring him away, and probably to put him inside. He didn’t come willingly, started to resist. He was thrown down and choked into submission, although he didn’t offer to do any violence that I saw to either of the nurses. Q. Was he injured in any way? A. Permanently, I should say no. He was choked, however, into submission by the two. Q. Were any bruises made on him ? A. I didn’t examine him. Q. After they choked him and threw him down, what became of him? A. He was choked into submission and then carried into the building. Q. Did you see any sign on his part of resisting the keepers? A. He didn’t want to go in. Q. He didn’t want to go in? A. No. Q. They wanted him to go in? A. Yes, sir. Q. They asked him to go in? A. Yes, sir. Q. Insisted upon his going in? A. Yes, sir. Q. And he refused? A. He refused to go in. Q. Then what did they do, take hold of him? A. Took hold of him, threw him down on the ground, and one choked him into sub¬ mission on the ground. Both threw him down, and one choked him. Q. After he submitted, did he go in without any trouble? A. He submitted. Q. And went in? A. Went in. O. Did they use any abusive language to him ? A. I don’t remember that. Q. Do you know where Mr. - was from? A. Charleston, I think. Charleston County, I know. 39 Q. What was the nature of the man? Was he quiet and peacea¬ ble, or disposed to be disobedient? A. Well, he was on a different ward from me, and it was my observation that he was sometimes very quiet and tractable, but always ready to become insulted in some way and get troublesome. Q. Easily insulted? A. Very easily at times. At times he was very violent, I believe. Q. Were these men acting under the rules of the institution by trying to get him to go in ? A. By getting him to go in; yes, sir. Q. Did he insist upon the right to remain out? A. He did. Q. What is the rule on that point, if you know it? A. I never have seen a copy of the rules of the institution covering patients, but it was customary whenever the patients got obstreperous out there to take them in. Q. Did he become obstreperous? A. He resisted. According to what I saw, he could have been taken in without being thrown down. Q. What is the custom among the keepers about taking them in ? Have they the right to take patients in whenever they want to, or have they a specified time to stay out in the yard ? A. The patients have certain hours for going out into the front yard. Q. They go out at certain hours? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was this one of those certain hours that they were trying to get him to go in? A. No, sir. They were trying to induce him to re-enter the building because he was becoming, I suppose you might say, violent out there. Q. Did he become violent before they tried to get him to go in?' A. That was what attracted their attention. He was speaking in a loud voice either to some person on the outside or to some imaginary person. Q. It was because of that loud noise that they were trying to induce him to go in ? A. For that reason. Q. Do you know what became of those nurses after that? A. I don’t know. One left. I don’t remember about the other. My recollection is that he was here when I left, but I could not swear to that. Q. Which one is here? A. Mr. Dickerson. I know he remained longer than the other. 0. Do you know whether or not that matter was ever reported to any of the officers of the institution? A. I don’t know positively 40 of that. One of the patients who was present said that he was going to report it. He told them so at the time. Q. You don’t know whether it was, of your knowledge? A. I don’t know. 0. Who was that patient? A. Dr. -. Q. He said he was going to report it? A. He said he was going to. O. You don't know? A. I do not. Q. Do you know of any other act of violence on any other patient ? A. I know of some acts of violence which I didn’t witness. Q. Do you know anything about them? A. I know from the effects. The after effects I saw. Q. \\ ho did you see present the appearance of having been violently treated? A. Patient -. Q. \\ here was he from? A. I don’t know that. He was from the upper portion of the State. Q. What condition did you see him in? A. His face was blue and black, to a certain extent on his body. One eye was red as blood. Q. Anything else? A. I saw no other signs besides his face, body and eye. 0. When did you see him in that condition? A. Several times in different parts of the building. The first time was at the entrance of the passageway leading into the eating department, the mess hall. Q. You don’t know what put him in that condition? A. Well, I know the admission of the nurses, made to me. Q. Who was the nurse? A. The nurse was Charlie Brown. 0. What did Brown say about it? A. He said he would do it again under the same circumstances. Q. Did he say what he did it for? A. He said the patient hit him first. 0. Do you know what became of Brown? A. He left the insti¬ tution. I don’t know any of the circumstances. 0. How long after that before he left the institution? A. Some time. Q. Do you know whether the authorities ever learned about that or not ? A. I don’t know, but it was done, people say. Q. You never heard them say they knew anything of it, the authorities? A. No, sir. Q. You never heard anyone say they had reported the matter to the authorities? A. I heard the nurses talking as if the authorities 41 had found out about it, but I never heard anyone of them say he had reported it to the authorities. Q. And you don’t know what became of the keeper ? A. I know he left the institution. Q But you don’t know how long after that? A. I don’t remem¬ ber exactly how long afterwards, but it was some time afterwards. Q. You were here when he left? A. Yes, sir. 0. What became of -? A. - was here when I left. Q. You don’t know whether they are here or not? A. No, sir; I have no knowledge of that subject. Q. Did you ever see any other instances of patients being assaulted by anybody? A. I saw the effects again. Q. On some other patient? A. Yes, sir. 0. Who? A. Patient-, of the first ward. O. -? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where from? A. I don’t know. Q. What condition did you see him in? A. The first time I saw him I was going down to supper and was attracted by groans. I' think he was an epileptic patient. My attention was attracted to some one looking through a peep-hole of the door. I went and looked in and saw this man lying on the floor with his back bare, his shirt pulled up over his head, groaning. I saw him and inquired of the circumstances, and they were explained to me at the time, and as I didn’t witness the assault I suppose it would not be pertinent for me to say, but I saw him a day or two afterwards as I was passing out into the yard, and there were some marks on his face at different places. There were more abrasions than bruises. Q. Were there any bruises on him when you first saw him? A. I could not say, exactly. The hole was not large and he was lying on the floor with his back bare. Q. Did he complain of any suffering? A. He was groaning like a man that was suffering. Q. Groaning? A. Yes, sir. Q. How old a man was he? A. I can’t say his age. I should say about thirty, between thirty and forty. 0. Did you find out how he got that mistreatment? A.- 0. Yes. A. I inquired of Mr. -, and he explained the cir¬ cumstances to me. Q. Who sits by you? A. Yes, sir. Q. You didn’t see it yourself? A. I did not. Q. You don’t know anything about whether the authorities found 42 it out or not? A. I don’t know of my own knowledge. I know parties that evening tried to get word out to Dr. Thompson, and ask him to come in at once and see the man. All my further knowledge of the relations of the physicians to the case was through Mr. - only. Q. Did you evef ascertain who the nurse was that did that? A. I ascertained in this way, that it was told to me. Q. What is the name? A. Durham Brown, and a nurse named Smith. Q. Smith and Brown? A. Yes, sir, Durham Brown. There are several Browns. Q. Do you know what become of them? A. I don’t know. Q. Do you know whether they left the institution or remained? A. No, sir. Q. How long had you been knowing -? A. By sight for some time. I didn’t know his name. I would know to see him. Q. What was his disposition? A. I don’t know much about that. He was in the first ward and I in the second. Q. In a different ward from you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever see him show any signs of violence or diso¬ bedience to the nurses? A. I think I have seen him try to get out into the front yard. Q. Try to get out? A. Yes sir. That is frequently done, though, by patients who have no right to go out. Q. Did he make any particular noise in trying to get out or anything? A. I didn’t hear any noise in particular. He was usually pushed back. I saw him wearing straps at one time, I think. Q. You don’t know what the straps were put on him for? A. They usually put them on for violence, but the specific violence I don’t know. As a matter of fact, I remember now seeing them put on him one time. Q. Do you know who put them on him and what for? A. I don’t know what for, but I think Mr. Wilson was putting them on him— some straps. Q. Mr. Wilson? A. Yes, sir. He is present here. Q. Was any other patient mistreated that came to your knowledge? A. Mistreatment, you know there are several kinds of mistreatment. Q. Tell me if you saw any violence? A. Violence? 0. Any assaults. Give them first. You spoke of -- and - and -, anybody else? A. No, sir; I didn’t see any- 43 body else mistreated, as I have stated. I saw another patient after he was mistreated. O. Who was he? A. -. Q. What condition did he present? A. What struck me was that his eye was very badly discolored. Q. Did he complain of any mistreatment ? A. He got word to his brother about it, I believe. He tried to. Q. Did he complain to you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Of any nurse? A. He did. Q. What nurse? A. Glover. Q. Glover? A. Yes, sir. 0. Do you know what became of Glover ? A. He was discharged. Q. For that? A. According to my knowledge, for that. Q. Your understanding was that he was discharged for that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who discharged him ? A. I suppose the Superintendent. I don’t know myself. Q. Was it immediately afterwards, that he was discharged? A. It was an assault. My memory is not clear. It was within a day or within a day or two. I can’t tell. Q. Anyway, a short time after that? A. It was within one day, according to my recollection, after the assault was committed. Q. Did you know - pretty well? A. He was on the fifth and came to the second. Q. What was his temperament? A. He was an epileptic and very hard to manage sometimes. Q. Hard to manage? A. Yes, sir. He is a very small man, though. Q. You don t know the cause of his getting his eye hurt? A. V\ ell, I know that he told me that he was down on the fourth ward, which is just below his ward, and he was being made to go upstairs to his ward. Q. You don t know whether he had to be made to go up or not? \ ou don t know what he was doing? A. Only that I heard he didn’t have a chance. He was inclined to argue. Q. You didn’t see it yourself? A. No, sir. Q. You don’t know anybody who did see it? A. T don’t know any one I could name who saw it. Q. What became of-? A. He was here when I left. O. Have you ever seen any straps on him? A. I am not sure 44 on that point, sir. It would be quite probable, but I don’t know whether I have or not. Q. What was the custom about putting straps on? A. I think I have seen him in restraint. As I understand it, it is partly to protect a patient against himself and partly to keep them from doing injury to others. Q. They didn’t put straps on any except those who were disposed to be violent? A. That was our understanding of what it was to be done for. Q. That is the rule of the institution? A. I can’t say. I have never seen them. Q. Do you know of an instance of straps being put on patients when they were not considered dangerous or violent ? A. I never saw straps put on anybody without cause. I was on the second ward and only went to the other wards occasionally. Q. Do you know anything about Mr. - treatment, - from Greenville? A. -? Q. - from Greenville County? A. I don't remember Mr. -, just at present. Q. You don’t know whether he was in there before you left or not? A. I don’t remember. Possibly he was there. Q. A lawyer from Greenville County? A. I don’t remember him. Q. Did you know a keeper or nurse by the name of Bryan ? A. I don’t remember any such name. Q. May be it was Brown ? A. There were several Browns. Q. Which one of the Browns made that admission to you ? A. About mistreating a patient? 0. Yes? A. That nurse was Charlie Brown. What his initials were I don’t know. I think they were C. W. Q. -. what was your treatment while you were here? A. Well, the first time I was here I was treated with violence two or three times, but the second time I have no complaint of personal treatment. Q. Who treated you violently the first time you were here? A. A nurse who has since left. 0. That nurse has left? A. Yes, sir. I think he has been away some time. Q. What is his name? A. Nesbitt. 0. What did he treat you violently about? A. There were three separate occasions, twice for offering some insulting act towards him, and once for insulting language. 45 I want to put in the record that I never cherished any ill-feeling towards him because he thought what I did was for pure meanness, and afterwards when he found out it was not that, he apologized and told me he was sorry, and I never have had anything but kindly feelings for him. Q. You accepted his apology? A. Yes, sir. Q. You think that treatment you received was a just one? A. I don’t think so, because I don’t think a nurse, according to my point of view, has a right to strike a patient. Q. Were you strapped? A. I was strapped on my bare skin. Q. What did you do to cause yourself to be strapped. A. It is necessary to say that? Q. Yes. A. I spit at him. Q. How close were you to him when you spit at him? A. I had just got out of the bath tub. Q. Was he doing anything to you? A. No. I thought I was ordered to do it by a divine power. That was the idea I had. Q. You were naked at the time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you remember those occasions distinctly after you come to be yourself again? A. I remember that distinctly, and practi¬ cally everything. 0. You must have been in a pretty bad fix when you were first brought here? A. I was. The doctors will tell you that I was all to pieces. All the time I was feeling these injunctions, but I didn’t yield until I left Philadelphia. Q. You were suffering from hallucinations? A. Yes, sir. That is what they are called. Q. Did you feel disposed to do violence to anybody? A. No desire to do harm. Q. No desire to do harm? A. For the sake of doing harm. Q. When you were put in straps, how long were you kept there? A. I was not speaking about being in straps, but being strapped with a strap on my skin. I was not put in straps. 0. How long were you kept in ? A. I suppose for nearly a month. There was no reason why I should not have been. That was the proper treatment. I asked my brother to put me in, and the straps were the proper treatment for me. Q. You have no complaint? A. Not the slightest. In fact, I was treated with consideration. Q. Have you any complaint against the institution for anv treat¬ ment? Do you think you received any unjust treatment? A. I 46 don’t think so, except what I have mentioned, which I don’t hold any grudge for. I don’t want to make a statement too absolute. I don’t think I received everything that I was possibly entitled to • from the point of view of charity and benevolence, but I did receive, I think, no positive ill-treatment for which I could express a grudge, and in some respects I received the greatest kindness. Q. Did you ever make any complaint of any mistreatment to Dr. Thompson or Dr. Babcock of any of these things? A. I made no complaint of the mistreatment of which I have just spoken. I made no complaint. Q. Of that? A. No, sir. Q. Of any other? Of any personal treatment, I don’t remember. Q. That is what I am asking? A. I don’t remember making any complaint. Q. Did you make any complaint to any of the authorities of mistreatment of any other patient, that any other patient was mis¬ treated? A. I did not. Q. After you came back the second time and remained here two years, did anything ever happen that you thought unjust to you, while here the last time? A. Unjust to me positively? Q. Yes. A. No, not at all. Q. Who had charge of your case? A. Dr. Thompson was the only physician that I saw. Q. Dr. Thompson was in charge of that ward? A. Except on one occasion. Q. These acts of violence you speak of. Were they when you were here the first time or after you came back the second, time, and these other patients? A. Those on other patients were all the second time. You know the first is a very long time ago, and I tried to forget them for five years, and I haven’t any very distinct recollection. Q. Were you at what they call the payable or the beneficiary table? A. I ate in what they call the little pay room. Q. Were you in as a beneficiary or pay? A. To my knowledge beneficiary. I have no exact knowledge. Q. That is your understanding? A. I was a beneficiary. I am morally sure that I was. Q. What kind of food did you receive? A. In this little pay room? Q. Yes. A. Well, I would consider it poor. Q. Poor? A. Poor. 47 Q. What did it consist of? What did they generally give you to eat? A. For breakfast it was hominy, usually; I am not up on the parts of the hog, but I called it fried ham or bacon; ham, I think, and biscuits with a kind of coffee, and sometimes for break¬ fast also, by way of variety, eggs, either poached or friend. As to the fried, I am not positive, but I think sometimes fried. Q. For dinner, what did they give you ? A. For dinner, it was ordinarily a rice cooked into a mush, and the same ham or bacon; that is, salt meat, I think it is called; also corn bread baked, very often, and during certain seasons, potatoes, and at one season of the year there were a good many vegetables, quantities sometimes. Q. What did you get to drink? A. Those were not all at once, usually four or five at once, milk usually. Q. Butter or sweet milk? A. Sweet milk. Q. Supper was light? A. It was light usually—bread and molasses and milk or the same kind of coffee. Q. What kind of bread? A. Sometimes pretty poor and some¬ times fair. 0. Your bread was baker’s bread? A. We speak only of baker’s bread in the low country. Q. How was it cooked? A. Baked, and it was sometimes good and sometimes poor. Q. How about the hominy? A. The hominy? I haven’t been used to that hominy, and I don’t know that I am a good critic. It was always yellow, but that may be due to the fact that it was ground yellow corn. Q. How about the coffee? A. That was pretty poor. Q. What the objection to it? A. I didn’t drink much of it, but what I did drink was very weak. Q. Is that the objection to it? A. I think so. It was very weak and tasteless. Q. The sweet milk was better? A. The sweet milk was usually very good, sometimes very nice. Occasionally I would see some sediment in the bottom, but that was the exception. Q. The milk that was served came from the dairy? A. Accord¬ ing to my knowledge, yes, but I don’t know. Q. That is your understanding of it. it came from the Asylum dairy? A. Yes, sir. Q. How about the rice, Mr. -? A. The rice was pretty poor. It was mush. It was rice mush. Q. You come from a rice country. What would you say as to 48 the cooking of the grits? A. Pretty poor, coming from a rice country. Q. How about the quality of the rice? A. That is pretty hard to tell. The taste was nothing. I don’t know that I could give an opinion about it because it was cooked in such a way I could not tell the quality. Any rice, the very best, is poor if the cooking of it is bad. Q. How many patients were at that table while you were here? A. The number varied. I should say in the neighborhood of ten. It varied, however, sometimes more and sometimes less. Q. Did you see any discrimination against the other patients in favor of you all were in there, in the matter of what they gave you and how it was prepared? A. The patients in our room ate those dishes that I have set forth, and they helped themselves. Right across in another room, the big pay room, the plates were helped for the patients, but they always said they got the same thing we did, but the big mess hall did not get the same thing. Q. What w’as the difference? A. What they ate? I am sure I never saw any fried meat. Q. The big mess hall ? A. Their meals were served in tin plates which were very greasy, and usually it was all put together in one plate. The patients in the mess hall complained very bitterly. Q. How were you all served ? A. We had china plates and had forks and knives. Q. Were the meals dished out? A. We helped ourselves. Q. Do I understand that in the big mess hall it was dished out and passed to the patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. And there is much complaint in the big mess hall? A. Those who speak about it at all say it ought to be better. Q. What do they say against it? A. They say it was very poor, and it was served in such a way that all the appetite they had was destroyed. At the same time there were patients in that mess hall who ate right along to my knowledge. Q. Did they have pretty much the same thing that came to those other tables, prepared in the same way? A. That is my idea of it, that they did. I don't think they have so much. I don’t think they had any milk at all. What they had was served in tin plates and tin cups. Q. Cooked in the same way? Was one cooked better or all in the same way? A. So far as I know. 49 Q. They had only one kitchen ? A. So far as my idea goes in that part of the building. Q. Were you in the kitchen while you were here? A. I never went in it once. I have looked at it from the mess hall, but never was in it. Q. What appearance did it present when you looked into it? A. Very dirty. Q. Dirty? A. Very dirty. Q. Do you know who did the cooking? A. I don’t know. You mean the cooks themselves? Q. The cooks themselves? A. So far as my observation went it was done by negroes, with white men in charge. Q. Hired or patients? A. That I don’t know. It was reported that they were patients. Q. The white man was not a patient? A. The white man was hired. Will you let me correct that on consideration. I don’t know whether those were hired or patients. Q. Those colored ones ? A. Those colored ones. Q. You know the white man was hired? A. As far as my knowledge goes, he was hired. Q. Did the patients in your room seem to enjoy their meals pretty well? A. Sometimes, and sometimes not. Q. Did they complain much? A. On the whole, no. It depended on the individual and on the dish. Sometimes there was complaint and sometimes they said they enjoyed the meal. Q. Enjoyed the meal? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they give you any dessert for dinner, usually? A. Occa¬ sionally, and during the berry season last year there was quite a number of times we had berries, and at the watermelon season we had watermelons. Q. Did you get pies for dessert? A. Christmas times and possi¬ bly a little at other times, but not as a usual thing. Last winter we had pork for breakfast and dinner, a small piece. Q. Were your vegetables furnished to you from the farm here? A. To my knowledge. Q. Prepared pretty well? A. I think not. The preparation did not impress me as good. Q. Did the food come to the table warm or cold ? A. Sometimes it was warm, but on the whole it had to wait on the table a good while before the patients got to it. Q. How did you know when your meals were ready? Did you 4—A. 50 have some signal? A. No bell. Somebody hollered. There was a fellow who hollered on each ward. Q. That the meal was ready? A. Yes, sir. Q. What time did you get breakfact? A. It varied with the seasons. It was, I should say, from half-past seven to half-past eight, somewhere along there, differed with the seasons; in the summer earlier and in the winter later. Q. At present early? A. Yes, sir. Q. You had soup for dinner? A. Sometimes. Q. How was it prepared? A. Well, I enjoyed the soup very much, the okra soup, for a time, the macaroni, but my taste was spoiled one time. Q. What did you find in it? A. A worm. Q. In the macaroni soup? A. Yes, sir. 0. Did you see anything at any other time in the soup? A. I didn’t investigate after that. Q. The soup didn’t appear to be clean? A. It is pretty hard to tell whether soup is properly clean or not. I could not answer to that definitely. Q. What time of the year was it you discovered that worm, what season of the year? A. I don't remember, sir. Q. You don’t know whether it was in the summer or not? A. I can’t remember. I remember the discovery. Q. That sometimes happens in the best regulated families? A. I mentioned that merely as explaining why I did not indulge again. I suppose that is the case. Q. What seasoned the soup, beef or chicken? A. We had no chicken, but the okra and the other soup we had was pretty good. Q. Pretty good? A. Yes, sir; it was pretty good. Q. Not what you would call hot water? A. On the whole, quite good. There were times it was poor, but on the whole it was good. Q. Did you get butter? A. I would not call it butter. It seemed to be some preparation of some oil. Q. Butterine? A. I think so. Q. You didn’t use the dairy butter. They gave you the milk? A. Yes, sir; in the little pay room, we got milk. Q. Was that pretty good ? You could observe it pretty well ? A. Sometimes it was and sometimes it was not. I rarely touched it unless I put sugar in it. Q. Was it clean ? A. Sometimes it was and sometimes it was not. Q. You disliked the butter? A. I disliked it. 5 1 Q. Did you go to the dairy any ? A. I never went to the dairy. Q. Do you know anything about where the hominy came from that they served? A. My idea was that it was ground on the place. Q. In a mill owned by the institution? A. That was my impres¬ sion of it. Q. Did you ever see that going on? A. I saw some corn being ground, and I was informed that it was for hominy. Q. Did you see anything wrong about that? A. It was full of weevils. Q. The corn was full of weevils? A. Yes, sir. Q. What time of the year was that? A. Towards the latter part of the summer or early fall. Q. Who was grinding it? Who had charge of the mill? A. I don’t remember. I happened to go down to the mill or shoe shop and stopped. There was no one in it at the time. Q. What bathing arrangements did they have in the ward ? A. In each ward is a bath tub and a wash basin in the bath room for the hands. Q There is one in each ward? A. Yes, and then some patients, some few patients, were permitted to have pitchers in their rooms with basins. Q. Do you know the rule about bathing the patients, and how often it is done? A. They were supposed, I think, to bathe once a week, and a change of clothing was made once a week under compulsion. Q. Who had charge of looking after the bathing of the patients? A. My idea was the attendant on each ward had to see that those in their care were bathed. Q. Those that were old and feeble and not sufficiently bright to look after bathing themselves, how about them? A. Very often patients bathed them, sometimes the nurses, assisted by the patients. Q. Do you know of any instance of more than one patient being bathed in the same water? A. I do. Q. How many instances? A. I saw on one occasion a tub full of water over on the fifth ward, and the patients on that ward bathed in it. I commented on the fact to one of them that they were bathing them all in the same water. I mentioned it to an attendant. I saw that. Q. Did the attendant know that it was being done? A. He was taking part in it. Q. Who was that? A. I don’t remember. 52 Q. Do you remember the names of the patients? A. Fifth ward. Q. Give the names? A. They vary so much on each ward. They were fifth ward patients as a whole. I didn’t stay there and watch it. I only noticed it was being done. Q. Do you know how many patients were bathed in the same water? A. I think all were on that ward. Q. Bathing in the same water? A. Yes, sir. I can’t swear to that positively. I can swear to the fact that there were several, and to my knowledge all that were being bathed that day. Q. Was that when you were here the first or the last time? A. When I saw it? Q. Yes. A. When I was here the last time. Q. Was any complaint made to the authorities about that? A. Not that I know of. It was done on the fifth ward. Q. You don’t know? A. No, sir. Q. You don’t know of its being made? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know whether the water supply is ample or not? A. Yes, sir. Q. There is no scarcity? A. It has been ample since the new water works system of Columbia has been connected with the institution, according to my knowledge. Before that I think it was sometimes poor. Q. When you knew that patients were being bathed in the same water, was that before or after you got the city water? A. I can’t remember, but I know several patients over on the fifth ward were bathed in the same water. Q. But you don’t know, at the time you saw this yourself, any¬ thing about the supply of water to the institution? A. My impres¬ sion is that there was something the matter. Q. With the water? A. Yes, sir. Q. A scarcity of it? A. Yes, sir. That is my impression. As I said, every week the fifth ward patients are bathed on a certain day, and they don’t change the water for the fifth ward patients. Q. They do not? A. No, sir. Q. What class of patients were those being bathed in the same water? A. The fifth ward patients are, on the whole, very weak and very feeble-minded. Q. The bath rooms, were they kept pretty clean? A. No, sir, it was not. Q. What appearance did they present? A. You mean five? Q. Of your own, first ward? A. On my ward it was fair, but 53 very often there were mops left in there on the floor, and the floor was wet. It was mopped, I think, once a day; and later on a patient came, and was very fond of cleaning, and he kept it pretty clean. Q. How about the fifth ward ? A. That bath room was in very bad shape. Q. What was the objection to it? A. There were a lot of ill¬ smelling mops. Sometimes soiled clothing was left in there, and sometimes mops with ill-smelling odors. It was very uncleanly. Q. How about the closets? A. They varied, sometimes clean and sometimes not. A great deal of this depends on the attendants. Some attendants were unclean and inefficient, and others ignorant and neglectful. On the whole, I would say it was very bad in the water closets and the bath rooms, unless the attendant was a par¬ ticularly energetic fellow. Q. A good deal would depend on the patients? A. It depended on the patients. If it was cleaned a patient had to do it. Q. Were the patients cleanly or uncleanly themselves? A. That depended on the patients. Q. Were there many in there that were filthy? A. Second ward? Q. Yes. A. No, I think not. There were three or four that didn’t care for themselves much, but ordinarily such patients were sent elsewhere. Q. How about the fifth ward? A. A great many of those could not take care of themselves. Q. Could not? A. No, sir. They were cleaned if possible, once a week, unless they defiled themselves, and then oftener. Q. That class of patients would necessarily be filthy? A. Unless watched very closely. Q. Were they pretty particular about the clothes? A. I think not. On the whole, they were not. Q. How often did they give them clean clothes? A. Once a week was the regular time. Q. Did they come from the laundrv in pretty good shape? A. No, sir. You are speaking about other wards than the second? Q. No, the ward you know about, your own ward? A. In some wards they have their own clothes, and change oftener, but the State’s clothes are given out once a week. On the other wards it was the same way, once a week. Q. When the clothes came in from the laundry, were they well washed? A. Sometimes they were, usually they were clean. The socks were not. The socks smelled very badly. 54 Q. It is pretty hard to keep clean socks ? A. Possibly so. They were never turned. I had to sort them, and it was all I could do sometimes to get through. Q. What kind of socks, woolen socks? A. Cotton, I think. There are some woolen socks, but most of the patients on my ward were patients wearing State clothes and they were cotton, very good socks. Q. Was the general clothing furnished by the State pretty good? A. Some of it was very good indeed. The summer underwear was very nice. I think it was army stuff, and the winter underwear was warm, and, I think, pretty good. Q. How about the beds? A. The beds depended on the patients or the nurse on the ward. Q. Did you have a good bed? A. I had a pretty good bed, yes. Q. Clean? A. I could not say, an old bed rather; old iron springs. There were bugs on it. Q. Many? A. A good many. Q. Did they disturb you much? A. Sometimes they would and sometimes I would use a liquid on it to keep them down some. Q. Were any efforts made to destroy them? A. The beds were treated or supposed to be treated. I can’t say that there was any definite time in our ward. It depended on the patient. Q. They were treated? A. Yes, sir. Q. By the attendants ? A. Sometimes by the attendant and some¬ times by the patient. It depended on the patient. Q. The patients could mash out a good many? A. I don’t think the mashing process would help much. Q. How did you get rid of them? A. They had a liquid for it that would keep them in some sort of subjection for a while. Q. Did they use a regular bedbug exterminator? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the liquid you speak of? A. Yes, sir. Q. Kills them and the eggs? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are the beds wood or metal ? A. Some wood and some metal. Mine was metal. O. The beds generally are wood? A. Yes, sir. My idea is that they were wood. Q. Have they been here a long time? A. Some must have been here a long time. 0. Do you know whether they have beds enough or not? Does anybody in your ward sleep crowded or on mattresses on the floors ? A. Yes, sir. 55 Q. Do they have single beds? A. Yes, sir. Q. Does each man have a separate room? A. No, sir. There were usually two in a room, ordinary size room, and then they had some large rooms. Q. Had a number in them ? A. A number in the large rooms. Q. Every man had a separate bed? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was there much complaint about the sleeping arrangements among the patients? A. none, except the bedbugs. I don’t think so. We usually had enough to keep us warm in the winter. They changed the bedding once a week. It depended upon the patient. I have seen some longer than that, some weeks perhaps. Q. Were the mattresses clean ? A. Infested with bugs. Q. Besides that they were pretty well kept? A. Pretty well. They were not sunned unless the patients did it. Q. I will ask you about the complaints about bugs, how general was it? A. To my knowledge the bugs were everywhere. Q. On the different wards? A. Altogether general. Q. Was the same true when you were here the first and second time? A. It was the first time I was here. I remember I had a room that was so infested that I finally got at it with plaster of Paris and whitewash. Q. Do you know anything about the difficulty of killing bugs when they get started in a place? A. I know it is generally pretty hard, but my room had bug nests all over the walls, and I went to Mr. Mitchell to see if he had any whitewash, and he said there was nobody to do the work, that Dr. Babcock was in Europe, and he could not do anything. Q. When was it you went to him? A. After Dr. Babcock went abroad. Q. Last summer? A. Yes, sir. Q. You went to Dr. Thompson ? A. He was the attending physi¬ cian here. Q. You went to whom? A. To Mr. Mitchell. Q. Who is Mr. Mitchell? A. He is the Supervisor. Q. Do you know how long he has been here? A. I do not. Q. A number of years? A. I don’t remember. Q. A pretty efficient officer? A. I found him pretty good. Q. Did you see much of him while you were in here? A. I saw a good deal of him and wrote him after I left a letter in which I told him he had given me a square deal. Q. That he gave you a square deal ? A. Yes, sir. 56 0. Did you have much talk with him while you were here? A. In a casual way. Q. He is the general supervisor? A. Yes, sir. Q. He does not go into the wards himself, often? A. Yes, sir. 0. What were his duties in the ward ? A. It was my idea he was charged with the management from the medical side. Q. Over these nurses? A. Over all the nurses. Q. Did you ever make any reports to him about mistreatment towards the patients, or complaints about the patients? A. No. sir. I did not. I have made two reports to him in the course of my stay. Q. What two? A. One about consuming eggs on the ward, the fifth ward, and the other about the consumption of eggs that were being furnished for food in the little pay room. Q. What about the eggs consumed on the fifth ward? A. Every night there would be eggs cooked over there. The second ward adjoins the fifth, and the cooking of eggs was going on over there regularly for several evenings, and I told him I thought he wanted to know that it was going on, that these nurses were cooking eggs. 0. What did he say ? A. He thanked me for telling him. At my request he promised not to reveal his source of information, because it would be unpleasant for me. Q. Did the cooking of eggs stop ? A. It did not. I will add that Mr. Mitchell told me that the nurses told him that they were only cooking the yellows of eggs which had been ordered beaten up to give to patients during the day, and he said he would rather see them eat those yellows than to have them thrown away. Q. What is the name of that nurse, do you know? A. I know the names of one or two on the ward at that time. Q. The nurse that told Mr. Mitchell that? A. Tidwell and one Kennedy. Q. Do you know where they are now? A. I do not. Q. You don’t know whether they are here or not? A. I do not. I think Mr. Kennedy is, from the information that I got, but I don’t know. Q. Do you know who the eggs were intended for? A. For the patients on ward five. Q. For the patients? A. Yes, sir, they were very feeble, you know. Q. You reported this to Mr. Mitchell? A. Yes, sir, and he said they claimed they were cooking the yolks, and that is what the 57 patients did not eat. They claimed that they ate the yolks and that the whites were given to the invalid patients. Q. To the invalid patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did the invalid patients receive pretty good care? A. Some¬ times. I don’t know that I can speak with authority about that, because I was not on the ward, on the fifth ward, and I only occasionally went there. I know a paralytic who was neglected by the ward nurses. Q. Who was he? A. -. Q. How was he neglected? A. I went over there one Sunday after twelve o’clock. He was paralyzed from the waist down, and could not hold his water, and I found his bed at that hour wet, and he was lying as far as he could over on the side. The nurse had let him lie in that condition, and with tears in his eyes, he pleaded for assistance. Q. Did you make any report of that ? A. I did not. Q. Why ? A. It was an unpleasant thing to do, and then ordina¬ rily one did not know whether it would get him into trouble or not. Q. Did it ever get you into trouble, those you did make? A. One of the nurses on the fifth ward, although Mr. Mitchell had not revealed his source of information, thought it was I who had reported him, and as I was coming through from somewhere else, he very roughly hurried me away. Q. He is one of the nurses? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was he? A. Tidwell, and ever afterwards he showed his dislike of me. Q. Was that your object for not making reports, because you thought it would get you into trouble? A. To be frank, I didn’t report because I did not know it would be any use. I would proba¬ bly only get myself into trouble. 0. You say you got a square deal from Mr. Mitchell? A. Per¬ sonally. Q. Was there anybody else you didn’t get a square deal from? A. I would like for you to be more specifiic on that question. Q. You are the man to specifiy. If anybody mistreated you, I would like to know it? A. You want to define mistreatment. Q. I will let you define it. In anything you don’t consider you got a square deal, in your own way tell about it, and when it was. You are at liberty to do that without my asking specifically? A. Before answering that question it will be necessary for me to state what I 58 consider a square deal. My idea of a square deal to a patient in here is that everything possible should be done to hasten his recovery, and that every possible effort within reason should be made by those in charge to speed his discharge, and I don’t consider 1 got a square deal or the others on that line. It is very hard to answer that without giving my particular experience in detail. Q. I will give you that chance. What efforts were made to hasten your recovery? A. I don’t know of any. I want to say that Dr. Thompson, to my knowledge, did everything he could to help me. Q. To help you? A. He did. But there was no treatment, and I think he will bear me out in saying there was no treatment, that 1 received no treatment. Q. No medical treatment? A. No medical treatment. Q. Do you know the reason why? A. I don’t know. But the institution where I was before I came here I received electricity and baths and things of that kind. Q. Did you have any physical trouble with your mental condition? A. No, sir. Q. No physical trouble? A. Not that I know of. Q. No physical trouble to be treated physically? A. No. Dr. Thompson always prescribed if I got sick at all. Once or twice I had a cold and a sprain and he looked after me carefully. Q. He was kind and attentive? A. Very indeed, to me. Q. And the other patients? A. Yes, sir; as far as I could see. Dr. Thompson was very kind. Q. Was he regular in making his rounds of the wards? A. Very. Q. How often? A. Dr. Thompson came around twice a day, Sunday included. Q. Morning and afternoon? A. Yes, sir. 0. Did he make a close inspection ? A. I think he did. He went over every ward and saw as many patients as wanted to see him, but I don’t think he had time to see them as much as he wished to see them. Q. Do you know how many were under his supervision ? A. The whole white male department there was assigned to him. Q. Six or seven hundred of them? A. No, sir, I don’t think that many. I don’t know the number. Q. Two or three hundred white male patients? A. The authori¬ ties can give you the number better than I can. Q. I am not asking for exact figures. You were among them? A. There were ten wards of them and the Taylor building besides. 59 Q. Did you ever hear any complaint among the patients on these different wards against Dr. Thompson? A. Well, sometimes there would be patients who were not satisfied, but the general feeling towards Dr. Thompson was one of the greatest respect. Q. On the part of all the patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there any act of absolute mistreatment or anything of that kind connected with him? A. None at all. I never saw any. No, sir. I never saw him mistreat any patient. Q. Was it a custom in there when a patient was sick to communi¬ cate with Dr. Thompson officially, was that a rule? A. The idea was, I think, that he would try to get the nurses to see if it was serious enough to report to the doctor, and if it was serious enough he would come in. Q. The treatment he gave you was satisfactory to you ? A. In connection with the little indispositions and the sprain ? Q. Yes. A. Entirely so. Q. Where were the medicines kept that were given to the patients ? A. In the medicine room. Q. Who is in charge of that, Dr. Thompson, on the wards ? A. The medicine room is in charge of the nurses. Q. That is the one on the wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. The nurses give the medicines? A. Yes, sir, they are sup¬ posed to do it. Q. Dr. Thompson prescribed? A. Yes, sir, and the nurses gave the medicines. Q. The nurses were pretty faithful in that? A. Well, not always. Sometimes they were fair. I have heard the patients complain of the nurses forgetting. Q. Was that room kept pretty nice? A. The medicine room? Q. Yes. A. Sometimes it was just the opposite. Q. When it was the opposite, what was its condition? A. Very dirty then. As far as that is concerned the vessels out of which we took the medicines was rather uninviting. For instance, the jar in which the water was kept on the second ward was positively indecent, it was so dirty. The dirt must have been on the outside. Q. That the medicine was put into? A. Yes, sir. Q. That was kept in bottles? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was medicine used much on patients in there, or just occa¬ sionally? A. Well, I think whenever the patient required it Dr. Thompson prescribed, and it was given according to his prescription. Q. During your entire stay here you never heard any complaint 6o against Dr. Thompson? A. As I have stated, I have heard patients complain against Dr. Thompson, but it was usually persons who were not themselves, and who, when they got to be themselves, spoke kindly of him. Q. Do you know of any patient ever being fed with a tube on the wards? A. There was one man fed with a tube, but I did not see him. Q. You know he was? A. My information is that it was Mr. Bean. Q. Do you know why that was ? A. Because he would not eat. Q. When they would not eat that was the rule, to feed them with that? A. I think so. I was threatened when I refused. Q. You were? A. Yes, sir. Q. But it was never used on you ? A. I suppose I ate enough to prevent it. I ate very little for a while, and it was only used as I understand in extreme cases. Q. When a patient will not eat ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you only know of that one instance ? A. That is my only knowledge of such a thing. That happened on the second ward. Q. As a general thing in there are they good eaters? A. No. I don’t know. That depends. Some don’t eat much and some do. To say that all are good eaters would be to make the statement too broad. Q. Did you ever hear of any abuse of the patients by any of these attendants? A. Verbal abuse? Q. Yes. A. Yes, I have heard that. I was playing cards one evening with two patients and a Mr.-, and it was during that time Mr.-broke a rule. He was smoking in the alcove. You are only allowed to smoke on the veranda. The nurse abused him heavily, so much so that I went myself and tried to quiet it. Q. Who was the nurse? A. Stewart. Q. Was it ever reported ? A. I think not. Mr.-would not report anything unless the provocation was extreme. Q. Do you know what the abuse was for? A. For breaking the rule. Q. What rule? A. That there was not to be any smoking except on the veranda. Q. And he was smoking in a room? A. He was smoking in the alcove which the second ward has in the middle. Q. Did he request him to quit before he abused him? A. He 6i came for him and without requesting him to quit, lit right into him. I asked him to stop. Q. Did he speak harshly to him ? A. Very. Q. Any other instance? A. Well, there was a nurse that has spoken to me in a way to get me pretty hard up. The exact words I don’t remember, but he was very much disliked—that nurse was— and everybody considered that he was a hard man to get on with. Q. Do you know what became of him ? A. I don’t know. He was there when I left, according to my knowledge. This same nurse once, to show his attitude, there was a Presbyterian minister who was in here, and the nurse knew his name, Mr. Henderson was his name, and he protested against the nurse calling him “old man.” He would say, “get up, old man, and take your medicine.” That was his style. Q. In bad weather—winter—how was the heating apparatus, pretty good? Did they keep you warm in there? A. I think pretty fair. Q. No complaints along that line? A. No, the heating was very good. Q. The drinking water? A. Good, I believe. Q. City water? A. City water is used on the wards, and for a while they used well water, but by the board’s orders, I understood, that was stopped. Q. What amusements were afforded the patients ? A. The only amusements the State recognized were cards and weekly dances. Q. Weekly dances? A. Yes, sir. Q. When is that held ? What part of the week? A. I don’t know. Q. Tuesday night? A. Tuesday night was what I had in mind. That is the night, I suppose. Q. Who attends those dances? A. Well, as many patients as wish to go and whom the doctor will permit. Q. Both male and female? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you attend those dances? A. The first time I was there I attended a few, and the second time I attended a few. Q. Who was in charge there? Who overlooked them while in there? A. The lady physician was there during this last time, and I think Dr. Thompson is always there, and I am not sure, but, I think, Dr. Mitchell is always there. Q. How long did those dances usually last ? A. I think they broke up about half past eight, somewhere between an hour and an hour and a half, may be longer. I may be underestimating that. 62 Q. Do the patients enjoy them? A. I think all who went went there because they enjoyed going. Q. Nobody was required to go? A. None required to go. Q. Were there any other amusements that you know of that were favored? A. There were no amusements, as I say, that were con¬ tributed by the State except card playing and the ball, but some of the patients bought themselves checkers. Q. Checkers? A. Or made them themselves checkers, and with Dr. Thompson’s assistance we got ball playing on the outside, sup¬ ported principally bv contributions from the patients, and by a large contribution from Charleston. We got that along last summer. Q. Last summer? A. Yes, sir, and the summer before, a small one. Q. Where did you play? A. Out here in the front yard. Q. Did the patients seem to enjoy it? A. Those who took part in it very much, and it benefited several, myself included. Q. Was there any objection to that by the authorities? Were they willing for the amusement to go on? A. I think they were willing always, sir. Q. You never heard any objection? A. I never heard any objec¬ tion. At first we got permission to get a bat and ball, and after that with Dr. Thompson’s assistance and other contributions we got our outfit. I ought to state that Mr. Gibbes, of the Columbia Baseball Club, made contributions to the baseball by sending the balls that the club had finished with. Q. How long was that kept up? A. That gift? Q. This ball? A. Well, it was going on when I left in October. Q. Summer is the main season? A. Yes, but they played right along until I left. In fact, after I left it was warm enough to play. Q. What was the rule while you were there about allowing patients to go out into the grounds for the purpose of recreation and amusement? A. Certain patients were allowed to go out into the front yard, this yard here. Certain others were allowed to go into the back yard. The ones that were allowed to go into the front yard were supposed to be patients who were able to conduct them¬ selves in an orderly way and keep themselves in a more presentable way. Q. That privilege was allowed to those who would behave them¬ selves? A. They went out under the supervision of the nurses. Q. They seemed to enjoy roaming around the grounds? A. Yes, 63 sir. I don’t know that enjoy would be the proper word. They pass the time away. Q. It seemed to help them? They seemed to get along better? A. I don’t know that I saw any particular case where that helped, just roaming around. There were a good many patients who wanted to go out every day. Q. Were you.ever obstructed in your wishes to go out? A. To the front yard? Q. Or anywhere else? A. You mean outside of the buildings into the city ? Q. Were you allowed to go into the city? A. I did not want to go, and I went. I only went with my father to a baseball game. On my way back we met Dr. Babcock, and he suggested that I go out twice a week to see the games, as he thought it would do me good. Q. That was Dr. Babcock ? A. That was his suggestion, and I asked the doctor if he would be willing and he said yes, if I would not bring anything into the building, and we made that agreement, but I never heard any more about it until I asked myself to go. Q. What did he say? A. Then I was allowed to go. Q. You were allowed to go? A. Yes, sir. Q. You did go by yourself? A. Well, yes, sir, that year, and then the next year I requested to be allowed to go, and several others at the same time, and we went several times, and then once or twice I went by myself. Q. What do you know about the employment of patients in the institution ? A. The employment of patients ? Most of the inside work is done by patients, but about patients employed on the outside I know very little. O. Those that are on the inside, most of them get some kind of light employment? A. If a man wants to work I think they can usually find work for him. Q. Do they prefer work, many of them ? A. Some do not. It is very much against the wishes of some to work and they will not work. Q. How did you consider that question? A. With me it was a matter of how I felt principally. I did not do much work towards the end. It was a question about how I felt. For a long time I was in such a condition that I had to seek some kind of diversion, and after I began to get better Mr. - and myself had charge of distributing the laundry, and I undertook to do all the marking for 64 the ward with indelible ink, after a while. That was after I got to feeling better. Q. Did you get on better with that light employment than with¬ out it ? A. I could not see that there was any difference. It was just that I was getting better, and wanted a little more to employ my time than I had before. Q. You seem to be entirely restored now? A. I hope so. Q. You feel no signs of the old trouble? A. I don’t feel any. I have to be very careful with myself. Q. Your mind is clear? A. Perfectly clear. Q. You attribute your recovery to your stay here? A. The only thing they did for me was restraint and baseball. Q. And restraint? A. The restraint and the baseball. Q. And confinement? A. The fact was I had to be confined. I had certain inclinations that were abnormal. Q. Did you have any inclination to do harm to anybody? A. Not, as I said before, I never had any inclination at any time to do harm for harm’s sake. Q. You thought that you were commanded to do things? A. The first time I was here I thought I was commanded, as I said, and once I felt that I was commanded to go up and take a man by the throat, but I did it very unwillingly. Q. Did you ever have any desire to harm yourself? A. On my first trip down from Philadelphia I felt that I was lost forever, and felt that I could save myself possibly by throwing myself from the train, and I made my way back to the rear end in spite of the efforts of mv brother to turn me (the conductor was out of reach), and I was finally restrained. I could have done it, but I was restrained by the thought that I did not want to leave my brother, and that I cared for him. I did not want to leave him. I think I can safely say I never got to the point where I could take my life. Q. That was on your way to the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. You never had the desire while here? A. No, sir. I never made any attempt to take my life. There was one thing I did that the attendants thought was an attempt to take my life, but it was not. I remember being, as I thought, compelled to fall backwards off the bed on the floor, but I never got up courage to do it, but I felt my eternal salvation depended on it, and they thought I was trying to harm myself. Q. When you felt that you were restored, did you have any 65 difficulty in getting out of here? A. I did not get out as soon as I wanted to. Q. Do you know the reason ? A. The doctor advised against it, I believe. Q. What doctor? A. Dr. Babcock, I was told, advised against it. Q. How long did they keep you after you thought you ought to get out? A. I think about a month. Q. One month? A. Yes, sir. Q. The rule, I believe, is that the Board of Regents discharges ? A. I do not know about that, sir. I have seen patients leave in the middle of the month. I did not leave right after the meeting of the Board of Regents, the second time. Q. Who interested themselves in getting you out—your folks at home? A. The first time? Q. Yes. A. I wrote to my brother, and he answered me in a way that I thought was rather cold. He afterwards explained to me that he would have to be cautious, and he immediately came with an uncle. They interested themselves in looking after me. Dr.- and my brother came down to see me. Q. What was done? A. They told me that Dr. Babcock advised that I stay until January, but they somehow or other; by signing papers, got me out by the 23rd of November, or about that time. That is the time I have in my mind. It was near the end of Novem¬ ber. I felt myself at that time. It was very urgent for me to get out. I wanted a change of occupation, and the effect was at once apparent. Q. How long did you stay out that time? A. Five years. Q. Did you get a full discharge at that time, or leave on parol or something like that? A. That is something that the physicians will have to tell you. All that I know is that two of my uncles signed papers. Q. When you came back the second time, were you in as bad a fix as at first? A. The doctors thought not. Dr. Thompson thought not. Q. But you staid longer? A. I staid longer. Q. Was there any trouble about your getting out the last time? A. The last time Dr. Thompson was away when I first made the move, and as soon as he came back I got out. But my brother made some inquiry. I did not learn anything until Dr. Thompson came back. 5 — A. 66 Q. Where was your brother living? A. In Marion. He was a physician. Q. Have you been living in Charleston since you got out? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know of any instances here where men were held that you thought ought to be let out? A. I do. I thought Mr. - was held after he ought to have gone. Q. From Abbeville? A. Mr.-, and furthermore, there was a man, a Mr. -, in here when I left. I did not see anything strange about his conduct. Q. Where is he from? A. I think he is from Marlboro, but I am not sure. Q. Are those the only instances that occur to you? A. Well, if it is the duty of the Regents to discharge when patients are restored, no matter whether he makes the request or not, I have seen one or two instances where I thought a patient was entitled to a discharge. One is Mr. -. Q. Where is he from? A. Charleston. Q. Is he in here now? A. I think I saw him this morning. Mr. -and Mr. Thompson told me. He said his mind was weakened permanently. Q. Those are the only instances that occur to you where you think parties ought to get out ? A. I can’t say that either. Q. Can you specify any others? A. There are a good many that I can remember the faces of that you could secure their release. Q. They all want to get out, then, don’t they, as a rule ? A. They want to get out? Q. Yes. A. If you will let me mention my own case, I did not. I realized I was in the right place. Q. Most of them do that? A. I think so. Q. They think they are imprisoned and want to get out ? A. They want to get out, I think. Q. A good many want to get out who ought not to be out? A. Absolutely yes, I answer to that, sir. I am not a doctor. I want to make the record clear that this is only the opinion of an observer on this thing. I do not propose to pass judgment. Q. It is charged that there are men in here who ought not to be here? A. I did feel in Mr. -’s case, that it was a very clear case of a man whose relatives ought to have been forced to take him. Q. Do you know whose fault it was? A. No, sir, I do not. I 67 know he wrote to Dr. Babcock. I don’t want to mention the doctor unless he was in here. Q. Do you know what effort the people of Mr. -had made as to his discharge? A. I don’t know. I know he told me he thought that his father-in-law was at the bottom of his staying here, being held in here. Q. His father-in-law? A. That is what I understood from Mr. -, that he was responsible for his being kept. Q. You made up your mind from your observation of Mr.- that he ought to have been discharged? A. I did. Q. Was he here when you came or did he come afterwards? A. I think he was here when I came. The first time I saw him was a very little time after I came. Q. Was he here after you left first? A. The second time. Q. Do you know when he got out? A. He got out just after I left. That is my recollection. He wrote me a letter saying that he was at home. He got out after I left. Q. Do you know of any mistreatment Mr. - received ? A. Mistreatment ? Q. Yes. A. I don’t know of any. That is the only kick which I have been aware of. Q. No other kick except the fact that he ought to have been discharged ? A. That is another thing that I would like for you to ask when the Superintendent is here. Q. How about Mr. Mitchell? Did you see much of him while you were in here? A. I saw him off and on regularly. He was open to see anybody. You knocked on the door and he was usually willing to give you a hearing. Q. What was his disposition towards the patients ? A. I thought it was correct. Q. Kind? A. He had the reputation of being brusque. Q. Kind and humane? A. So far as I know. I can say that he gave me a square deal personally. Q. Did the patients generally seem to like him? A. That is a question that depends on the man. Some disliked his manner and some saw further into the man. Q. Beyond his manner, did you see anything on the part of Supervisor Mitchell that you thought unjust to a patient? A. There is one instance that I cannot recollect that I have in mind. The details of it are gone. I can't recollect it. It may come to me. 68 I have a very clear recollection of the time I told him I thought he had been very hard on a patient. Q. What did he say when you told him that? A. I don’t remem¬ ber anything except that I know the occasion of it. He either oppressed or had been hard on a patient. Q. One occasion ? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember the patient? A. Now I do. The whole thing comes to me now. It was a fellow named -. He was on the front yard and suddenly became violent. He was playing a game of baseball, and he began to talk loud, and some of his friends got around him, and some of the nurses started to bring him in, and he said he would be quiet, and one of the nurses, as he was leaving this man who had promised to be quiet, said, if you don’t we will put straps on you, and to say you would put straps on that patient would always make him wild at once. I don’t know why it would do that, but that patient had that peculiarity. If you mentioned straps to him or said you would put him in restraint he went wild. Right after that I think the nurses brought him in and he was banished to the Taylor building. Q. Whose fault was it? A. I thought it was the nurse’s fault. Q. The nurse was the cause of his being put in the Taylor build¬ ing? A. He had just been in there. Q. He was put back in there? A. Yes, sir. There was a little trouble preceding that, too. This patient had begun to talk loud on the ward in the room where he was sleeping. Some of the patients complained about it to Mr. Mitchell, and Mr. Mitchell told him he would have to stop, and the next thing when there was some dis¬ cussion, the threat was made to put straps on him, and he began to fight at once. He was banished to the Taylor building for that. After he had staid there a while he was allowed to come back. He had quieted down and this other thing on the front yard happened after that. I considered that in that case, after I told Mr. Mitchell, I thought he ought to have had the matter investigated, to be sure that the inmates were not mistreated on the wards. Q. Is that the only instance you ever saw on the part of Mr. Mitchell ? A. That is all I have in mind. Q. All you can recollect? A. Yes, sir. I don’t know that I have made that as clear as I would like, because it has come to me on the spur of the moment. Q. Do you know of anything else? A. I do, of the conduct of Attendant Munnerlyn. 69 Q. What do you know of any mistreatment on his part? A. He was kind to patients, but he took a whole turkey and put it away last Christmas in his drawer. Q. Whose turkey? A. The State’s turkey. Q. Where did he get the turkey? A. Off the fifth ward, so far as our information went. Q. Was the turkey cooked? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did he do with it? A. He told me he had a piece of turkey, and that he was going to give me a piece, and he cut off a slice and gave it to me. Q. Did you see where he got the turkey? A. I did not ask him, but there was only one place he could have gotten it, and that was on the fifth ward, and he was a nurse on the fifth ward. Q. Why was the turkey sent there? Were the meals served there? A. Yes, sir. Q. And he had a whole turkey? A. He did. Q. Night or day? A. This was at night when he took me over and cut me off a piece. Q. What did he do with the rest of the turkey? A. I never saw. He put it away in his drawer. Q. Was that matter ever brought to the attention of any of the authorities? A. It was not, that I know of. Q. Did any other patient get any of it besides yourself? A. No, sir, not that I know of. It is but fair to say that Mr. Munnerlyn was afterwards discharged. Q. Was any ground meat served on the fifth ward? A. That was the way it was always served—beef. Will you let me correct just one minute. I did not mention that beef was served in the little pay room two days in the week. Q. For dinner? A. For dinner. Q. How was it prepared ? A. Boiled. Q. Was it palatable? A. Sometimes it was good and sometimes it was not. I thought on the whole there could not be any complaint except that the beef was cooked in that way. Cooked in that way it is hardly ever palatable to the taste. Q. How did the beef the first and second time you were there compare ? A. I don’t know that I could say that I have any definite recollection. Q. You don’t remember whether it was better the second time or not? A. I do not, Q. About the ground meat, how was it served ? A. The meat on 70 the fifth ward was always ground up, because the patients are sup¬ posed to be unable to eat it unless it is. Q. Go ahead. A. Do you want me to describe the whole process? Q. If you can. A. It is brought up on a dumb waiter and then is fed to the cutter with the hands by patients or nurses or both. There are generally the nurses of several wards on hand at that time, and there is no effort to have the hands clean beforehand, so much so that patients on that ward warned me when I got a little of that against eating it, and I saw for myself. Q. So, this is the process you mean? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever eat any of that meat ? A. I did not eat any after that. Q. You did before? A. Yes, sir. Q. What class of patients did they give it to? A. Invalid patients on that ward who could not eat meat at all. The fifth ward is the invalid ward. Q. The purpose of that was to keep patients from eating lumps of rough beef? They can swallow it better when it is cut up? A. To a layman it looks like it is because they can’t digest the other meat, but the doctors can tell, I suppose, whatever the reason is. Q. How much did you see of Dr. Babcock while you were here? A. I saw very little of him. Q. Do you know what department of the institution he gives his personal attention to medically? A. On information, he gives medical attention to one of the ladies departments—on that ward. This is only hearsay. Q. You don’t know for a fact? A. No, sir. Q. Dr. Thompson had charge of the male wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever see doctor in there? A. Dr. Thompson? Q. Dr. Babcock? A. I saw him in there rarely, occasionally. Q. Do you know what the rule there is in regard to going into wards outside of his own ? A. I don’t know. Apparently it is only when there is some urgent case. Q. Was that true when you saw him in your ward ? Was there a special reason? A. I saw him once when Dr. Thompson was away. I saw him just as he went through a side door. I saw him after that. My first stay I saw him three times and my second stay I saw him twice. Q. Did you have any personal conference with him? A. The only time I had a personal conference with him was when I met him coming from baseball, and when I was going away I thanked him 71 for letting me out. That was the second time. The first time Dr. Babcock saw me when I came in and talked my case over with my brother-in-law, and promised to discuss my case with me, but he did not keep his promise. I never had the talk with him. Q. You never had any talk with him after that? A. Except casually. Q. About your condition? A. None at all, sir. Q. Did any of your people ever talk to Dr. Babcock about your case ? A. I had visitors off and on, and I think whenever any come to see me they spoke to Dr. Thompson, because he was usually the only man that could be found. I can’t say but that they did some¬ times speak to Dr. Babcock, but as to the numbers who did it, I can’t say. Q. You don’t know as to your people going to see Dr. Babcock? A. I can’t be certain about that. I know of relatives who wrote to him, but I don’t know whether any relatives of mine talked with Dr. Babcock about me, except the first time. Q. Were your relatives satisfied with the treatment you received here? A. Well, comparatively, they were. Absolutely, they were not. You had better let me put in a little matter that I was trying to put in, and that is this, that I was talking about the subject too. You asked me with regard to who consulted Dr. Babcock. I remem¬ ber that Dr. Epting (?) came down here on my first stay, as I have already stated, and consulted Dr. Babcock about me and he advised me to stay until January. That was the first time I was here, and that is the report of Dr. Epting to me. Q. You got out before the first of January? A. I got out as near as I can come at it about the last part of November. Q. Did you get one of those releases or a discharge? A. I have never seen it. I only know that my uncles signed a paper for my ■elease. Q. For your release? A. Yes, sir. Q. As I understand it, you came here the second time at your quest? A. I told my brother this was the place for me. Q. And you wrote to your brother to bring you? A. I thought iwas all up with me in this world and the next, and a man under Bse circumstances knows what is best for him. Do you feel fully restored now? A. I feel that I am away frn that matter that was troubling me when I was brought here, bvl feel that I must take care of myself. I don’t dare overwork. Is your general physical condition good ? A. It is, sir. I have 72 gained twenty-five pounds since I left here. I gained fifteen before when I left. Q. Are you in any kind of business? A. I have just entertained a business proposition. Q. What kind of business are you going into? A. Is it necessary to tell that? Q. If you don’t want to? A. I don’t care to put anything on the record that would embarrass me in the business. Q. You expect to go into business? A. Yes, sir. Q. You feel able to go into business? A. Yes, sir. Q. You said something about the absence of Dr. Babcock. When was that? A. His absence last summer. Q. How long was he absent? A. Some months. Q. Do you know where he was*? A. He was in Europe accord¬ ing to the papers and the reports. Q. Did things go on better while Dr. Babcock was away? A. They did. Q. Nothing to complain of? A. That is a very broad question, in some respects things were better, and in other respects they were the same. Q. There was no material change in the way things were run while he was away and when he was here? A. That is the con¬ clusion I have made—in some respects better. Q. In no respects worse? A. Not that I know of. Q. In what respects better? A. Well, there was much more done for the diversion of the patients. Q. Who did that? A. Dr. Saunders and Dr. Thompson. Q. What was the nature of the diversion? A. They encouraged much more outside sport, outdoor amusements. Q. Who is Dr. Saunders—in charge of the female department? A. Yes, sir, and she was very much interested. Q. In outdoor amusements? A. Yes, sir. Q. That was during the summer months? A. Yes, sir. Q. I suppose there is a great deal more than that during the sun¬ nier months than during the winter months? A. Well, sir, that true as to part of your question. Dr. Babcock went away in t! summer, and it got better after he left and it stopped suddei' shortly after he came back. Q. Did he discourage amusements? A. So far as we could fi by indifference only. Q. By indifference? A. By indifference. 73 Q. Did you ever hear him say anything against it? A. No, sir, I never heard him say anything against it. Q. Nor for it? A. No, sir. Q. Did you make the baseball arrangements at your own sug¬ gestion, or did the doctor have anything to do with it? Not at his suggestion? A. I went out first with my father and I met Dr. Babcock coming back, and he made the suggestion as I have explained just now that I go to no more than two games a week. After that-always came for me. Q. Did he give any reason for your going? A. He said it would do me good. I would like to state here, in order that there may not be any obscurity, that the reason I say that baseball was not so favored when Dr. Babcock was here was because in his absence the lady patients came over once a week and were present on the outside at the baseball game, which we enjoyed all the more because they were present, and several of them came over, which gave an added enjoyment to the whole situation, and when Dr. Babcock came back that was stopped. Q. Do you know whether or not he ordered it stopped ? A. I do not. Q. You don’t know why? A. My opinion was that he didn’t have anything to do with it, but I have no right to say, but I merely know that it was stopped. Q. What time in the fall did he get back? A. I can’t testify as to the exact time. Q. In the fall season ? A. It was in the fall season. I think it was in September. Q. Baseball is stopped by everybody in the fall? A. Not here. Q. Not here? A. Not in this place. Q. It is a summer game? A. It is in a certain sense. Where people want to play it it can be played until it gets so cold that there is danger of the hands being hurt by the ball. Q. Do you know of any objection being presented by Dr. Babcock to ball being played? A. No, sir, I did not. Q. Or any other amusement? A. Well, we had some horseshoes at one time, and he objected to this. That was the first time I was here. I have heard of other things. Q. He objected to the horseshoes? A. He found we had horse¬ shoes, and the man who brought them told us he was put out with them for bringing them, and it was stopped. They were brought by somebody connected with the institution. 74 Q. Did you pitch horseshoes ? A. I did at that time. Q. What was the reason stated for stopping it? A. Considered dangerous. Q. To the patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where were the horseshoes kept, in the building or in the yard ? A. I think they left them in the yard. When the patients came in they would leave them out there, and when they went out they took them. Q. Were those horseshoes kept where the patients could get hold of them? A. Yes, sir, the patients who— Q. Other patients? A. No, sir. They were left on the yard. Q. When you got through with them where were they left? A. According to my recollection they were left right in the neighbor¬ hood of where they were being pitched. Q. Were these- patients that pitched the horseshoes—were they violent? A. No, sir. They were front yard patients. Q. In your judgment they could be trusted with instruments of that kind ? A. I think so, sir. It looked so to me. There never was any trouble of the kind while we were using them. I could not see how they are as dangerous as a baseball bat. Q. If an insane patient were to get hold of a horseshoe it would be pretty bad? A. So would a piece of glass broken out of a window, a broom or a mop handle. Q. How long did the horseshoe pitching last? A. I think it must have been two or three weeks, but that was my first stay, and the finer details I cannot recollect now. Q. Were the rules of the institution kept where the patients could see them ? A. I never saw a copy of them. Q. You never saw a copy? A. Not that I knew anything about. I saw a copy in the possession of Mr.-, but at the time I saw them, I was not caring much about rules or anything else. Q. After you got better, did you see any? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know where they were kept, or whether any publica¬ tion of them was made to the nurses? A. I don’t know. There are some rules posted in the nurses ward. They were not rules of the institution. Q. The nurses—as to the duty of the nurses? A. I have never read them very carefully. I think so. Q. Posted how ? A. On the nurses room where the patients have no right. 75 Q. Did you ever know of any neglect about that little pay room that you were in? A. A little. Q. Broken glass? A. Yes, there was just before I left a broken glass there. I moved my place at the table to get away as I didn’t like the draught on my back. There was a piece of window pane broken out, and I called Mr. Mitchell’s attention to it, and he said he had called it to the attention of the outdoor man three weeks ago, and he had not paid any attention to it. Q. How long did it remain in that condition? A. I left a short time after that and it had not been fixed up to the time I left. Q. That was in October, I believe? A. Yes, sir, that was in October. Q. You don’t know how long it remained out before it was fixed? A. Mr Mitchell said it had been called to the attention of the outdoor man three weeks before. Q. But it had not been fixed? A. No, sir. Q. How did the nurses and the attendants get along in there? A. Well, on the whole very well. I know of one instance where there was a disagreement, but even that, I did not see. I only heard of it. Q. How did they get along with the authorities over them, the physicians? Was there any complaint on their part against the physicians? A. I can’t say, sir. That is something that the patient has very little chance to know. Q. I mean the nurses and the attendants, did they ever complain ? A. Against the management of the institution ? 0 . Yes, against the management, or against anyone connected with the management, with Mr. Mitchell, the physicians or any of them ? A. I would not like to mention any specific detail, because I am not clear enough on the subject. Q. You don’t recollect any instance of the nurses? A. I do not now recollect any. Q. That is what I mean. Did they seem to be pretty obedient to orders from headquarters, these different under-tenants, nurses and keepers, did they seem to be disposed to carry out the orders from the head of the institution ? A. Not knowing what orders they got— Q. Did they appear to be in harmony with those above them ? A. I suppose so. I didn’t see any sings of any particular friction. Q. Were any turned off while you were here? A. They were. Q. Do you know what for ? A. I don’t know. I have heard of some cases. Mr. Glover, for assault, has been mentioned. I stated 76 to you that Mr. Munnerlyn, with whom I found the turkey, was afterwards discharged, and I think C. W. Brown was discharged. C. W. Brown, according to my information, was discharged, and possibly some others. The names I cannot remember at present. There was a good deal of changing in the nurses. Q. How many inebriates and dope fiends were in here while you were here? A. A good many. Q. Where did they take their meals? A. They took their meals, most of them in the little pay room. Q. The same room you were in? A. Yes, sir. Some of them took their meals in the big pay room, the big mess hall, and some¬ times on the ward if their condition was bad. Q. Were they all pay patients? A. They called themselves such. As to whether they were or not the authorities will have to answer. Q. You took them to be such? A. We sometimes took them at their word. Sometimes we did not. Q. Did they receive any different treatment from what the others received in here? A. I don’t think they received any better treat¬ ment than the other patients. They were always clamoring for better treatment, and insisting upon attention being shown them. 0. Did they get it? A. I think they got it as far as the doctor could give it to them. Q. How did they get along with Dr. Thompson? A. Sometimes they thought he was pretty hard on them, but usually when they got well they thought he was pretty good. They were always very anxious to get out as soon as they got free from the liquor or dope. Q. They were generally very impatient to get out? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they have any difficulty about getting out ? A. Some did. Q. Do you know the cause or excuse they had for not letting them go out? A. The doctors, they said, told them they were not sufficiently restored. That is something that I think the doctors can answer better. Q. All you can say is that there was considerable clamoring to get out? A. I—they clamored, yes, sir. I think the physicians will corroborate that. Q. I suppose all that class of patients were on your ward, were they not? A. I think they made an effort to keep them there, if they were really pay patients, but sometimes they would behave themselves in such a way that it would be necessary to send them elsewhere. Q. Can you give us an idea about how many were in here while 77 you were here? A. It would be hard to say on the spur of the moment. If you will give me time I will try to get at about the number here the last time I was here. Q. Twenty or twenty-five while you were here? A. I can't remember. I don’t know whether there were that many, but there must have been over a dozen. Q. Over a dozen? A. I would not be surprised if there were not between twelve and twenty-five. Such patients do not usually stay long. I am speaking of the last time I was here about this. Q. Do you know whether the patients, those that could under¬ stand them, had access to the rules or not ? A. They did not to my knowledge. I never asked for them while I was here. Q. You never asked for them? A. I never did, but there were not any to my knowledge. I don’t know anything about them. I know I never saw them. I don’t know anything about them except what I gathered from observation. Q. Is there anything further you would like to state to the Com¬ mittee? A. I have been through a pretty long examination, it is a pretty hard thing at once to say. I want to incorporate in the baseball statement, a statement that Mr. Bunch helped the team and Dr. Saunders and Dr. Thompson furnished us with materials for the uniforms, and the ladies made up our uniforms and made our games very pleasurable. Q. Did you know anything about meat being ground up in a bath tub? A. Ground up in a bath tub? Q. Yes. A. No, sir. Q. You never heard of that? A. No, sir, but the meat tub on one occasion was being washed in the bath tub. Q. In the bath tub? A. In the bath tub in which the ward five patients had bathed, which some of them defiled at times, and I mentioned that matter to Dr. Thompson as I was going out, and I saw it again when a patient was doing the washing. 0. Who was the patient? A. -. He didn’t have any better sense. Q. Did any of the attendants see it going on ? A. I think not. Q. Did you ever report it to anybody? A. I reported it to Dr. Thompson as we were going out to do some fixing on the baseball grounds one day. Q. What did Dr. Thompsorr say ? A. The doctor merely asked for details. Q. For details? A. Yes, and I told him. It was not in the 78 nature of a report that I made it. It was only a little information I thought he would want. Q. Was the patient pretty crazy? A. He is a well-intentioned fellow, but he does not know any better than to do that. The Chairman—As I understand, the only two cases of personal assault that you witnessed yourself was that of the patient Mr. -? A. Yes, sir, I saw that. Q. And the instance in which you were whipped? A. Yes, sir. Q. There was no other that you saw or know of personally? A. That I recollect. I think there were others, but I don’t recall them. 0. Was the patient- a large or a small man? A. A small man. Q. Who were the two patients that had that - fight? A. - and -. Q. Were they large men? A. - is not tall, but very sturdy and thickset, and Dickerson about the same size as -. Q. Your testimony, as I recall it, was that the patient, against the rules, was attempting to go from one yard into another? A. No. He was talking too loud, either to imaginary persons or persons on the outside in that corner of the front yard. 0. And the nurse heard him at it? A. They heard him, and told him to come away from there and stop talking, and my recollec¬ tion is that they started to take him in at once. Q. He was not trying to escape from the yard ? A. He was not. Q. Did he make any effort to strike out there ? A. He did not. Q. How did he resist? A. He simply struggled against their efforts to take him. Q. In his struggles he didn’t strike them? A. My recollection is that he did not. Q. Did he make any movement against them before they laid hands on him? A. My recollection is that he did not. Q. Just how did they lay hands on him? A. Well, one just took hold of one side and one the other, and started to pull him along, and he resisted, and when he resisted they threw him down, and as he was still resisting one of them choked him. Q. Did they strike him incidentally to choking him ? A. My idea is that they did not strike him. The reason there was the commotion among the patients about it, was because they felt that he could have been taken without the choking. We recognized that it was necessary to remove him from the yard. 79 Q. From your observation would you say that it was not neces¬ sary to use the force that they used? A. Not necessary to use the choking. Q. In speaking of the incident when you were strapped, as I understand it, that term is sometimes used to mean a certain kind of restraint? A. I meant that a strap such as is used to hold these things on the patient was used as a whip across my back. Q. Were you whipped first and strapped afterwards? A. I was whipped and the straps put on afterwards, I had the straps on, but they took them off to bathe me. I was just out of the bath. Q. It was not the strapping but the whipping that you complained of? A. The restraint I considered perfectly proper. Q. The only provocation was that you spat at the nurse? A. I did. I thought I was ordered to do it. I thought my soul’s salva¬ tion depended on it. Q. Did you offer any violence towards him? A. Except that thing. Q. Did you struggle any with him ? A. No, sir. Q. The only provocation for his whipping you with the strap was the spitting? A. It was. Will you let me put this on the record. One day the nurses were talking about that, and they com¬ mented on the fact that Dr. Thompson had better not see those marks, and he never did see them. Q. As to the treatment of patients there, with a view to recovery— was there any well-defined treatment, occupation or recreation look¬ ing towards recovery? A. Not that I ever saw. The inebriates and the dope fiends had a sort of drug treatment, and medicines were given to other patients—certain medical prescriptions, but I never saw myself any specific treatment. Q. As to the occupation of the patients, did it seem to be directed to the recovery of the patient, or to the usefulness of the institution ? A. I don’t think that there was any effort there that I was ever acquainted with to use the patients for the good of the institution. I don’t think I ever saw any such occupation. The patients were engaged simply for the purpose of cleaning up the wards, work in the field and things of that kind. I was not speaking of this. I was speaking simply of the accommodation for recreation and amusements. Q. Was there any well-ordered attempt to interest the patients in the various occupations? A. T did not see any. 8 o Q. The baseball games have been going on in some way for a number of seasons, have they not ? A. The first I saw of it was the first spring I was here. They began there a crowd playing around, and somebody suggested that we ask that we be allowed to play, and money w T as invested, being raised among the patients for that purpose, and it grew from that initiation by the patients absolutely. Q. That was when you were first here? A. That is the second time. Most of my recollection is of the second. Q. What time was baseball started that summer? A. It was pretty early in the spring. Q. And it was started, as you say, as far as you know, at the initiation of the patients? A. It was. Q. You spoke of one of the nurses taking a turkey that you understood was for the use of the patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know of other occasions where nurses ate delicacies that were sent to patients? A. I can’t recollect. I have heard patients complain of things being lost out of their baskets, but I know of no authenticated instance. Q. Did any of the patients ever complain to you of any of the nurses taking them? A. Not about that. I have heard a nurse speak about another nurse eating delicacies sent for patients. Q. What nurses made that complaint? A. I talked to several of them. I could not mention the names of them. The nurse of whom the allegation was made I can mention if you think necessary. Q. I w r ant to get the nurse that made the complaint? A. I can’t mention that, sir, for certain. I have an idea. I think I know. Q. I want to know if you are certain. You spoke of an instance of a Presbyterian minister who was called “old man”, a term that he objected to, by a nurse, and you said he started it. What occurred after the start? What was the result? A. Well, the circumstances I had better explain more in detail. This man’s name is - The nurse knew his name. He complained and the nurse did not give him any satisfaction. He complained to Dr. Thompson, and the nurse then said afterwards, I heard him not very long afterwards, “I didn’t know I was doing any harm.” Q. That was not a typical instance? A. I think there were very many instances where patients were treated very badly. It depends on the degree of intelligence of the patient and of the nurse. A man who is not able to take care of himself in the hands of a badly disposed nurse is bound to fare badly. 0. You knew of such nurses? A. Yes, sir. 8i Q. Were there many such nurses? A. There were a good many there that were not what they should have been. 0. You spoke about a patient playing ball who became noisy, and a nurse said he would use straps if he didn’t keep quiet. The point was that, as I understood, the nurse knew that would start him up, that particular patient ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And he frequently did so? A. No. I can’t say that, I didn’t see that, but at that particular time and that particular instance he did that. Q. Was that particular nurse given to disregarding the peculiari¬ ties of the patients in that way? A. I don’t think he had too much sense for one thing. If he had had more sense he would not have said it. I can’t say that. He was an ill-disposed fellow, however. Q. Were there other nurses who were ill-disposed in that way? A. There were several nurses who were very distasteful to patients and provoking towards them. Q. Did they do any teasing? A. Very often. Q. What form of teasing did they use? A. They teased patients that they knew would holler, scream or curse. Q. Tell me some of the patients? A. There is a patient named -, on the fifth ward. I have heard him teased pretty nearly a whole afternoon. Q. By whom ? A. By a nurse, so he told me. Q. Did you see the teasing? A. I didn’t see the teasing. I heard it, and recognized it from the patient’s voice. I knew it could be only that patient and only when he was teased. Q. Did you see any teasing? A. I have seen him teased a little, yes, sir. Q. Did you see any other patients teased? A. Yes, sir. Q. Tell about some instances that you saw yourself? A. As far as that is concerned I have to plead guilty myself. When I was feeling pretty bad and wanted some distraction I teased a bit. There was a fellow by the name of - that when he gets in a bad fix will curse at you. I never saw a nurse tease him, but I heard it was a custom on his ward. So far as teasing is concerned,-, of whom I have spoken already, I have seen nurses tease him, and then when he got obstreperous as a result of the teasing, they would yank him into his room. I can mention the name there and some of the details. Q. Give us the name and details. A. It started with the patient. The patient was requested by Mr. - for a light for his 6— A. 8 2 cigarette. The patient gave the light, and then just as Mr.- was about to enjoy his cigarette, he took the cigarette out of his mouth and held it. He became somewhat excited and finally spit at this other patient and ran over into another ward. Over in the other ward a nurse began to tease him, and he became obstreperous with this nurse, and they finally tried to make him go in, and he refused to go, and began to fight, and he was carried fighting into his room, and the fighting was the direct result of the teasing by the nurse. Q. Was he ever teased again? A. I think he was teased very often. It was a very common thing for him to be teased. Q. By other nurses and patients? A. It was. Q. Were there other patients used in that way for sport? A. I know of a case where a nurse—but the nurse can testify to that himself. Q. What is the nurse’s name? A. George Brown—on one occasion with -, where straps were put on him just as a matter of sport. Q. By whom ? A. By a nurse on the third ward. Q. Did you see that? A. I heard the facts. I was with Mr. George Brown on the piazza. He was at that time officiating on the second ward, and I heard him upstairs cursing, and he said he had straps on and that they were put on just for sport. Q. You say this bathing was done up there by a nurse or by a patient? A. Yes, sir, on the fifth ward. This was the case I was speaking of. Where men were able to take care of themselves they usually did their own bathing. Some would not bathe at all unless made to do so, and the patients on the fifth ward assisted the nurses in the bathing. 0. Did the nurses ever leave it largely to the patients ? A. I think they did largely. I think they left it mostly to the patients on the fifth ward. They have to see to it. Q. They stood there and saw it done? A. That is my under¬ standing, but I can’t swear to that. 0. Did you see it done yourself? A. Once a week I saw the patients standing around naked getting into the tub, and coming out, and putting on clean clothes on the fifth ward. Q. You say often more than one would bathe in the same water? A. Let me put this thing straight. I know they assisted, for I have seen the patients assisting the nurses. Often they could not come down and the patients would stay and help with the washing. 83 Q. You won’t know whether the nurse was there or not? A. I don’t know whether he was or not. Q. Was there any complaint about bathing more than one patient in the same water? A. I never heard of it. The men that they so bathed did not have sense enough to complain. Q. Only those that did not have sense enough to complain were treated that way? A. I don’t think that men that had sense enough to complain would have bathed that way, sir. Q. You say there was not any complaint? Why wasn’t there complaint ? A. Because the men that were being bathed that way did not have sense enough to complain. And the others that saw it, I know for my part, the reason I have given already is why I did not make reports if I could help it. Q. Why not ? A. I did not know whether it would not result only in incurring the dislike of some one in authority over me, I mean the attendant in authority over me. Q. The nurse? A. I mean the attendant that my report might concern. Q. Had you any experience that led you to believe that? A. I had seen cases where people had been up to make reports and nothing had been done, and I knew from the old patients who had made reports that they had quit making them because no result ever followed. Mr. Hardin—I don’t like to interfere in asking questions, but I think the testimony has been gone over, and there are a good many questions being asked that the witness has already been asked. I merely make that suggestion. The Chairman—I should say that my memory may not be good and I may not be as skillful as I ought to be, but in the best way I can I will have to proceed. 0. With reference to taking care of patients, was their hair brushed mornings, and were they generally well attended to? A. No, sir, not that I know of. Q. If a patient could not attend to himself he would have to go without being attended to? A. Yes, sir. I did myself. Q. You mean your hair was not brushed? A. Yes, sir. I had the straps on at the time. Q. Was it a common thing that nurses allowed the patients to go without their hair being brushed, and the clothing properly renewed? A. I don’t think there was any effort to keep it so. My observation was that they did not. There was a paralytic on my 8 4 ward attended to by a patient who looked after him. The nurse gave him the medicine. I never knew of the nurse looking after him in the way you mention. I did know of a patient doing it. Q. What is the name of that patient? A. Mr. Connor. I remem¬ ber seeing that patient get one all-over bath that I remember while I was there. Q. He needed it oftener? A. Well, I should think so, a man lying in his bed day in and day out. Q. Was he given any other kind of bath ? A. I think this patient that I speak of, I think they washed his face and hands for him, but even that I cannot tell. I never saw the attendant giving him any attention of that kind. He may have, but I never saw it. Q. What makes you think he was not bathed oftener? A. The question, if you put it that way, I will have to say that I don’t know whether he was or not, but I do know he was not bathed in my sight. If he was I think I should have heard something of it. Q. What was the name of the patient? A. -. Q. And the nurse? A. The nurses varied on the ward. Q. The nurses varied? A. Changed from time to time. They take the nurses off the ward at certain intervals. Q. Were patients furnished with special towels for their daily bathing? A. They were given towels if they wanted them, I sup¬ pose two or three a week. I suppose they were furnished to him if he asked for them. Q. Did many of the patients get special towels? A. No, most of them did not. In some cases where a fellow was in a very bad fix he would. Q. They had towels regularly? A. They furnished towels. Q. That is ward five. A. Two. Q. How about ward five? A. I was only on that the first time and a little while, and the patients from five attended to most of them. Q. You spoke of some trouble with the socks. What was that trouble? A. They smelled bad when they came back from the laundry. They were not clean. Q. Did you report that? A. I did not. Q. Why not? A. It was a matter of course. It had been going so for a good while. I did not report that for that reason. It never occurred to me to tell the doctor. I accepted it as a matter of course. Q. And that is why you never complained—because you accepted 85 it as a matter of course? A. Could not you specify a little? Q. I am speaking of your complaint? A. The report was not made by me. Q. What other work besides attending to the clothes did you do on the ward? A. After I got in a little better shape I made up my bed, and sometimes I got the patients to do that for me. I usually swept out my half of the room, and occasionally helped the nurse with his monthly report, writing it out for him. The things I have mentioned were all the things I did. For a long time the only rest I could find was in continually reading. Q. You say you made out the nurses’ reports? A. Sometimes they were rather illiterate, and sometimes wrote a bad hand. I had more facility with the pen, and that is the reason they used me. Q. What did those reports consist of? A. Reports of the number of patients on the wards, the names of the patients, and every month they filed requisitions for what they needed. They knew what articles were needed on the ward, and made out requisitions for it. Q. The making out of these reports was left largely to you by some of the nurses? A. No, the facts had to be kept and furnished by the nurses. They were always present when the report was made, and the requisitions I wrote I usually wrote after he had written them out himself or at his direction. Sometimes I helped them remember what was needed. Q. Was it customary to air your beds at stated intervals? A. It was not in ward-. Q. Second or five? A. Second. Q. How about five? A. I can't state positively, but my recollec¬ tion is that the patients, the beds of patients who defiled them, were aired. If anybody wanted to air his bed, he shouldered it and took it down himself. There was no effort to have it aired. Even then, I cannot say that it was done on the fifth ward regularly, but I have seen beds of such patients taken out or in. Q. Was the covering of the beds kept clean? A. I recollect they were washing them once. 0. \\ hen was that ? A. This year. I mean the last year I was there. Q. Do you remember what time of the year? A. I do not. I merely recollect the washing. 0. Do you recollect any washing any other time? A. I do not, but it was very rare. 86 Q. How was the washing done? A. I have no very detailed recollection of that. Sometimes a patient is employed for such work, but I don't remember the date. Q. The general washing? A. There was a general washing last summer by a negro woman. She came in and did the work. I don't know whether they washed the glasses or not. I don’t think they did. I don’t remember that as part of the work, but they did wash the rooms and the floors thoroughly. Q. Were the windows washed at any other time? A. The recollection that I have of the washing was another time and place. It was not the washing of the windows in my room, but the wash¬ ing of the windows in the room that might be called the reading room, the sitting room. Q. Were the walls of the rooms in pretty good condition? A. Mine were fearful. Q. In what way? A. Bedbugs, nests all over it. O. Had it been whitewashed recently when you first went there? A. Not for a long time. I didn’t complain about it until I began feeling better and taking more interest in life, and then, as I have already stated, Mr. Mitchell said there was no way to have it done at that time. Q. You spoke of a glass in the dining room. Are the repairs done well ? A. All broken glasses are repaired at pretty regular intervals. Q. How about other repairs in the building? A. They were made I think pretty well. My recollection of that is that they were made right along. Q. Speaking of those involved in the plumbing and heating, how about those? A. I think those were pretty promptly made. Some¬ times the bathrooms were closed for a few hours, but they did prompt work to the best of my knowledge. Q. You were speaking of your treatment there. Did you receive any treatment in the way of medicine or occupation or recreation except attending to the clothes and baseball that was devoted to your recovery? A. Nothing except of my own initiation. Q. You would say, then, your recovery was not by reason of any treatment you received there, but to the fact that you received none? A. That is the way I looked at it, the restraint being the whole thing, together with whatever exercise I took, and I took that in spite of the circumstances that were against me. Q. Was the fare on the whole you received nourishing? A. Well, it was not what I would consider nourishing. I have gained 87 twenty-five pounds since I left, and have been gaining steadily. I don’t know what others may consider it, sir. It was not, as I say, what I have been considering nourishing. Mr. Harrison—You said you made two reports, one to Mr. Mitchell and one to Dr. Thompson, about the condition of the food, and that was not brought out? A. On refreshing my memory on that it was about the eggs in the dining room, Q. Just state the nature of the reports? A. The eggs in the dining rooms that were furnished were often very dirty, and many of the eggs were in such condition that some of the patients would not touch them because of that, and one morning it was so bad that I saved an egg, black on the bottom, and took it to Mr. Mitchell, as he is supposed to have the management of such things, and he told me not to make the report to him, that the people in the kitchen did not respect his authority, that I must make the report to Dr. Thompson, and he went on to say that he didn’t know that they would pay much attention to Dr. Thompson’s author¬ ity, and I went and took the egg to Dr. Thompson, and Dr. Thomp¬ son went down and found the employee about the matter, and things went better for a little while, and then it got back again, and off and on they were black on the bottom. There was evidence of unclean preparation so far as those eggs were concerned. The Chairman—I did not understand whether you were not kept posted or your family was not? A. The facts are these: That when I first came my father wrote to Dr. Babcock, and got no answer, and he did not get any knowledge until he threat¬ ened to write to Dr. Thompson, but during the second time they knew to whom to apply, and they were kept informed except when I was about to get out, and in that case my brother could not get an answer. Q. Letters directed to whom? A. Dr. Babcock. Q. Were there several letters or one unanswered? A. That from my brother was one communication. Q. On the first, one communication? A. My father is not sure whether he wrote once or several times. Mr. Hardin—The witness made a reference to a particular friend of mine, Rev. Mr.-, and I would like to ask you—I understood you as saying that you were in the same ward with him ? A. Yes, sir. O. Do you think he was treated at the time you speak of unfairly? 88 A. He was not treated unfairly by Dr. Thompson. He was treated with discourtesy by the nurses. Q. Do you think that it was really meant as a discourtesy, or just in a pleasant way he said “old man”? A. It was in a very unpleasant way. Q. Whether said in a very pleasant way or not he took it that way? A. Mr. Henderson resented it very bitterly. Mr. Hardin—I want to say, Mr. Chairman, I have seen Mr. -since he has been discharged. He is preaching again, and his condition was not so serious as to make it necessary to keep him here. I consider that he is well now. I have heard him preach since he has been discharged. The only interest I have in this particular matter is that he once preached at a little church of which I was a member. Mr. Ray—I would like to ask you a question ? Has Mr.- ever complained to you of this treatment while here ? Mr. Hardin—No sir. Mr. Carey—This is a little irregular. The only witness on the stand is Mr. -. The question can come a little later. Mr. Carey—There is one question that Dr. Babcock wants you to answer. Have you ever been put in position to see and have you seen much medical treatment of insane people during your life? A. The only chance to see it I have had was here, and I haven’t seen it here. Q. Do you know of any method of treatment, I mean aside from the body, of insane persons? A. I am not a physician, but I have been to sanitariums where people in a low nervous condition were treated by certain methods, and I always have felt that a person whose mind is in a bad fix required every possible device that he could be supplied with. Q. I mean the treatment of the mind alone aside from the physical condition? A. It seems to me that my answer to that would be that I am not expected to know. Q. I am simply asking you. You are complaining that they don’t make sufficient efforts here to restore patients, and they simply want to know. We want to have the benefit of what you know about methods to restore patients. That was the reason I was asked to ask you that question. Do you know any way of restoring patients except that? A. My knowledge of medicine is slight, but my idea from my own experience and from watching others is that 8 9 a great deal can be done by proper diversion, exercise and fresh air systematically encouraged. Q. Do you think that was sufficiently encouraged while you were here? A. I do not. The fact that there were no diversions except by the patient’s initiative—this is my basis for that statement in part. Q. You think that the authorities did not interest themselves sufficiently in preparing those things? A. I do. I will qualify that. I found Dr. Thompson always ready to help me so far as he could, and I would like for that to go on the record, but the policy of the institution is what caused me to say this. No systematic effort is being made along that line. 0. Were they supplied with books? A. If they wanted to go down to the library and get them they could, but the library was not systematically run. Q. They did have a library? A. There is a library, yes, sir. Q. You are allowed to read the papers and magazines? A. If they took them themselves or could get them, and sometimes magazines were sent bv outsiders to the patients. Q. Any card playing? A. There was card playing and indoor amusements. Q. Checkers? A. Checkers were furnished by the patients. These were the diversions. Q. Baseball? A. Yes. Q. What other diversions do you think they ought to provide? A. You want me to answer from my knowledge of it? Q. Yes. A. I think they ought to have been furnished. There was once a bowling alley, and there should be a pool table. It seems to me those things would be very helpful. And on the outside they should be furnished with games that will not hurt them, and it ought not to depend on the patient, but the State of South Carolina should furnish those things. Q. Do you think of any regulations the State ought to provide? A. I forgot to mention the fact that Dr. Thompson assisted us in arranging a tennis court. The tennis set was supplied by a friend of mine who sent it to us. The place was supplied by the State and the court was laid out by myself and another man with Dr. Thomp¬ son’s assistance. Q. Is there anything you think ought to be provided, that you ought to have and do not have? A. Ought to have but don’t have? 0. Yes. I think the authorities ought to have looked out to see 90 that the men get to go on walks sometimes from the confines of the institution out into the fresh air. Q. Were they allowed that—those that wanted to go out? A. No. One man could go out with the attendants, but there was no organized effort to encourage anything of that kind at all. Q. You think they ought to be allowed to go into the city? A. If they are able to do so. Q. I mean generally, those like yourself? A. In my case it helped. Are not others it would help entitled to the same? There was one man that went out on my suggestion, and he was a different man after that. He went to the baseball games. Q. Who was he? A. -. Q. Is it your idea that it ought to be forced upon them? A. Not forced, but encouraged. Q. Encouraged? A. Systematically. Q. What class of patients do you think ought to be encouraged to do that? A. I think the physicians ought to use their judgment about that sort of thing. The matter that I am standing for, from my point of view, is that it ought to be a part of the policy of the institution towards such patients. Q. How about the opportunities to get away if they are allowed to come out of here? A. That has to be looked after, but it can be provided against. 0. How would you provide against that? A. By sending attend¬ ants along with them. In some cases it is not necessary. It seems rather hard for me to pronounce upon these things like an authority. I can only give it to you as the feelings of a man who has been on the inside. Q. That is what we have come out here for, to ge't you to tell us everything that you think would help these people. If you have anything further we would be glad for you to tell it, if you have anything not growing out of the questions we have asked? A. There is something that I asked you to postpone, and as it will appear in the testimony, it had better be taken up. You asked me if I ever tried to get an interview with Dr. Babcock, and I told you there had never been anything of that kind, but had written letters to the Superintendent which did not secure any notice at all. Q. About Dr. Babcock? A. Yes, and I asked you to postpone that question until the doctor returned. Q. When was it written? A. Just before I left, a month or six weeks. 9i Q. Did Mr. - write the letters? A. He dictated them to me. He gave it to me, and I put in the words, and he sent them. He asked me because I had more facility with the pen. Q. Who did he send it by? A. Mr. Mitchell, I think. I am pretty sure. Let me think a moment. Mr. Mitchell, it is my understanding of it, promised to put one at least into Dr. Babcock’s hands himself. 0. Do you know whether or not it ever reached his hands? A. I was so informed. Q. That they were received? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who informed you ? A. Mr.-. Q. Mr. Mitchell— A. Informed him. Q. He informed him? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was there any answer made to the request? A. None at all. Q. What was the request? A. The request was either to be dis¬ charged or to be given some work. Q. Some work? A. Some remunerative work. As he had had remunerative work, he asked that he be discharged from the institu¬ tion or given other remunerative work here. Q. How long was that before you left? A. A month or six weeks, within six weeks or possibly within a month, possibly a shorter time than that. Q. Was there no reply to the letter? A. No reply. Q. Did Dr. Babcock see Mr. -? A. Mr. - said he did not. Q. Is there anything else you want to refer to since the doctor has come in? A. I want to mention this. Probably later on testi¬ mony may be offered with regard to Mr. -, and since that matter was brought up I recollect the evening Mr. - came here that he was being teased by the attendant. Q. What is the name of the attendant? A. I think Stewart. He was teased. I think he had some peculiar hallucination about where he was. He was calling out something or other around there, and they took it up and teased him about it, and the attendant was one of those who took part in doing it. Q. Who were the others? A. Some of the patients. My idea was that the attendant ought to have stopped it, instead of that. Q. You think Stewart was the attendant ? A. I do, but I am not sure. Q. Did you participate in that teasing? A. I did not. Q. Any other time? A. Of him, no. 92 Q. Any other patient? A. I did. I confessed so freely. I want to say this in justice to myself—as I got better I got interested in other things, and did not. Q. Did the other patients also participate in teasing much? A. There were some individuals that were teased a good deal by the patients. Q. Did you know Mr.-? A. I did. Q. Did he get any mistreatment in here that you know of? A. By attendants? 0 . Or patients? A. He was in a pretty bad fix when he came and he was teased some. Q. Who teased him? A. I recollect one of the patients teased him. I don’t recollect any nurse teasing him. Q. Did you participate in any of that teasing? A. No, sir, to my recollection I did not. The Chairman—I didn't catch your answer when you were asked the question whether the teasing was done in a pleasant or an unpleasant way? A. I emphatically said it was distasteful. An adjournment was thereupon had until 3:30 P. M. Pursuant to adjournment the Commission met at 3:30 o’clock P. M., in the offices at the Asylum Building this 5 May, 1909. Present: The members of the Commission, Chairman Christen¬ sen presiding. Mr. -, recalled, testified as follows: Mr. Carey—Have you thought over your testimony, and would you like to make any explanation? A. I would like to express myself rather more clearly on the point about the square deal. 0 . What have you to say? A. I want to put it as follows: I was given a square deal by Mr. Mitchell personally, Dr. Thompson personally, but not by the institution, because they surrounded me with unhealthy conditions, and left me to struggle and get well the best way I could in spite of them. Q. Have you any fault to lay at the door of any specific part of the institution that you thought treated you wrong while here? A. I think that would cover it. The institution, the management, did not give me a square deal. If there is any way to change that, it is for you gentlemen to discover. Of course, I have my opinion, but it is only an opinion. 93 Q. How long were you in here before you saw signs of getting better? A. Well, I was in here and the unreal things became fainter and fainter until finally, probably a month before I left, I was ready to try again. Q. How long were you in here before you began to discover that you were getting better? A. I could find that out in this way for myself. It was two or three months before I would admit that I was better. I think, as I look back at it today, these unreal expe¬ riences became fainter and fainter, the abnormal things. Q. So you progressed while here pretty well towards recovery? A. It depends on whether two years was necessary or less time. Q. What do you think about it for the condition you were in when you came? A. I don’t see why, if they had better surrounings for me, the time could not have been shorter than that, because tbe breakdown came, that is to say, the specific breakdown followed an attempt on my part, while suffering—fooling yourself into feeling that you are not well, and a little Christian science using my whole strength to enable me to correct that. This puts you to great effort where there is nothing to call for any effort. Q. You were studying Christian science? A. No, sir, not at all. Q. Were you before you got down? A. No, sir. Q. Were you studying on any particular subject? A. No; I had been up in North Carolina working on a truck farm for about six weeks. Then I went to Niagara Falls. Q. Was your breakdown a nervous one? A. I suppose the doctors could answer that better than I could. Q. You know what part of your system gave you trouble? A. It was brain and nervous I suppose. That is a question the doctors can answer better than I can. The hallucination had a religious form. That is, I felt that I was lost forever. Q. You were despondent? A. Yes, and I felt that I was directed as if by a duty to do certain things. Q. How long before you came the first time had the hallucina¬ tion been troubling you ? A. The first time ? Q. Yes. A. Probably two or three days. Q. Two or three days? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you see anything of the Board of Regents while you were in here? A. Not as a board. I saw one individual at one time and then another. 0 . Where did you see them? A. I saw one—Dr. Ray—he came 94 through the building one day, and I saw this one, a member of the Board of Regents, Dr. Taylor. I saw him on the yard. Q. Was it the old doctor? A. The last time I was here it was the young doctor. Are you speaking of the first, or both times? Q. Did you ever go before them as a board? A. I did not. Q. Have you ever addressed any communications to them? A. No, sir. Q. You never brought any application for discharge before the board itself? A. Not that I know of, that I recollect, no, sir, I depended on my people to take the proper steps, and I spoke to Dr. Thompson and Dr. Griffin personally. Q. In this second attack, how long did you come to yourself before you got a discharge? A. Before I got that discharge? Q. Yes. A. I was better, taking interest in things for a good while, but I did not really think of getting out until I had a visit from a member of my family, and I went out to spend the day with that person with the permission of the physician, and I felt so well, as a result of that day, that I concluded that it would be better for me to try it outside. Q. How long was that before? A. I don’t know. That was about a month. Q. Something like a month? A. It was nearly a month. Q. Was it after that feeling came over you that you began to apply for your discharge? A. This member of my family, I think, spoke about it here to one of the physicians, and then I had my brother to come over here. He talked with the doctor and he talked with Dr. Saunders. He did not see Dr. Babcock, and Dr. Thompson was away, and he took steps after that together with my father. Q. What was the feeling of your father as to your being kept here? A. He thinks that I was dismissed as soon as it was proper to do so. Q. Your father thought so? A. Oh, yes, sir. 0 . How about yourself? A. I think so, and I heartily agree with them myself, for I was dismissed within a reasonable time. Q. Were any papers signed the last time? A. I understand not. Q. The last time, then, you got a free, unconditional discharge, did you? A. That is my understanding, sir. Q. As to your own case, you did not feel that you were unreasona¬ bly kept here after you were prepared to leave? A. No, I did not feel that. 95 Q. Is there anything else that occurs to you in the way of explanation ? A. I failed to make this answer to your question with reference to inside changes I thought ought to be made here. That is the whole object of this investigation, if there is to be anything changed. All the things I would have to set down here would take a small volume. Q. Of course, we don’t expect you to cover those things. That would come from other quarters. We are asking about matters embraced in the statements and affidavits made in connection with these charges. A. You asked me if I thought any changes ought to be made here. You asked the question and insisted on an answer from the point of view of a man on the inside, who had been on the inside as I had been. Q. You gave it. A. As I say, I did not feel that the answer covered everything that should be covered. I stand by what I have said. Q. Do you wish to add anything? A. I feel that I could sum it up without going into details too much. Q. Sum it up? A. I had a feeling that the management was behind the times in different ways, and that it ought to be changed to something progressive and showing interest in the patients. That sums it up. Q. Is the Legislature at fault or those running the institution? A. To our ideas it seemed to be those running the institution. That is my view of it. Q. Don’t you think if the management had sufficient funds they would make these improvements? A. I think if they had sufficient funds they would do better than they do. On this line, would you like for me to answer on ? Q. Do you know how much per capita the management had? A. No, sir, I have read of it since. Q. Do you know now? A. Yes. Q. How much per capita did they have? A. I don’t recollect. I have not held that in my mind. Q. You did know, but don’t remember? A. No, sir, I don’t remember it. The Chairman—I would like to ask Mr. - this question: Many of these matters of which you have spoken this morning in the way of complaint — may be they are a part of your hallucination ? A. Impossible. They were not, absolutely not. 9 6 Q. How are you certain of that? A. Because I can recollect my whole experience, and I know what is hallucination and what is not. For instance, I know that I felt that I was commanded to do a certain thing, and that that was a hallucination, but I also know of circumstances connected with it that were not hallucinations. Take the instance of the attendant that hit me with the strap. The hallucination was that I was commanded to show disrespect to him as I did. I remember that very distinctly, but there was no hallucination about the strapping. Mr. - , white, sworn, says: Mr. Carey—What county are you a native of? A. Abbeville. Q. Born and raised in Abbeville? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your age now? A. 43. Q. Have you a family? A. Yes, sir. 0 . Any children? A. Yes, sir, a wife and five children. Q. All alive? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were they raised in Abbeville? A. Yes, sir. Q. You reside there now? A. Yes, sir. Q. You have been residing there since you left this institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long ago was that ? A. That has been about five months ago. Q. About five months? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were, I believe, at one time an inmate of this institution? A. Yes, sir. O. Did your mind get wrong? A. Yes, sir. Q. You came here for treatment? A. Yes, sir. 0 . At whose instance were you sent here—your relatives? A. Yes, sir. 0 . They thought you were in such a condition that you would be benefited by coming here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Your wife thought that? A. Yes, sir. I suppose so. Q. Were you committed regularly by the county authorities, by the Probate Judge and examined by physicians? A. Yes, sir—I don’t remember. 0 . Do you remember what physicians? A. No, sir. I was too sick to know anything. I was down and did not know anything. Q. Do you recollect now those matters since you have got straight? A. Yes, sir. O. You know you were examined by physicians? A. Yes, sir. 97 Q. And brought here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you distinctly recollect when you were brought here? A. No, sir. Q. You can’t now? A. No, sir. Q. Can you recollect anything that took place in here while you were an inmate of the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is your recollection clear on the points? A. Yes, sir. 0. When you first came here where were you put? A. On the seventh ward. 0. On the seventh ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who had charge of you here medically? A. Mr. Bookman. Q. I mean physician? A. Dr. Thompson. Q. What attendants were on that ward, nurses? A. Bookman. Q. Any other one? A. Yes, sir. There was another, but I can’t think of his name. He was a young man. Q. Mr. Syfan, when you first came here, were you in pretty bad shape? A. I was in a terrible fix. I had been in Baltimore for cancer of the bowels, and I had the joint of my backbone taken out for cancer of my bowels. I could not tell you half. I was in a terrible fix. I was in great distress. Q. Did that bring on the cancer? A. Yes, sir. I was working hard. Q. How long after the operation was it before you were brought here ? A. I suppose five or six months, may be it was longer than that. 0. What institution did you have that operation performed in— Johns Hopkins? A. No, sir, St. Josephs. Q. How long did you stay up there? A. I staid up there about thirty days. Q. Was your mind in pretty good shape while you were there? A. Yes, sir. I came back and went to work on the Seaboard afterwards. I ran a stationary engine there for about seven months, I think. Q. Can you recollect the date you reached here ? A. No, sir. Q. How long were you in here? A. The first time? Q. Yes. A. I think it was about thirty days. Q. Meaning the time you came? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you recollect the time you first came? A. Yes, sir. Q. What month and year? A. No. I don’t think I can. 0. You can’t recollect the time ? A. No, sir. Q. You came back again? A. Yes, sir. 7—A. 9 8 Q. When did you come back again? A. In 1906. Q. Was the first time you were here in 1905? A. I think so. I went home and staid nine months and came back. Q. In 1906? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you stay continuously from the time you came in 1906 until you were discharged? A. Yes, sir. Q. You did not go home any more? A. No, sir. Q. When did you get discharged? A. I had to get a lawyer. Q. When was it you got out of here? A. In 1908. Q. What time did you get out in 1908—in October? A. It was a day or two before. Q. Of last year? A. Yes, sir. Q. Mr. Syfan, what attentions were shown you by the authori¬ ties here when you first came? A. When I first found myself I was in a pretty bad fix. In about three weeks I got up and wrote a letter on my knees to my wife. I found myself on the seventh ward on the naked floor, and I was sore from here to here (indicat¬ ing). Q. You were sore? A. I was galded to death. Q. Was that when you first came to yourself? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know what caused that soreness? A. Lying in my filth, I suppose. 0 . Can you remember lying in your filth during that time? A. Yes, sir. You see I have got no control of my bowels whatever. Q. You had not at that time? A. Not now. All my actions come on cotton. Q. Did the attendants over the ward you were in pay any attention to you ? A. Very little, only when Dr. Thompson would come around they would come around. I had laid there for hours and hours. Q. When you would be on the floor? A. Yes, sir. Q. They didn’t have room on the ward? A. I had a room on the seventh ward. Q. Did you have a bed? A. No, sir. Q. Where did you sleep? A. On the floor. Q. No bed provided for you? A. No, sir. Q. No pallet nor anything? A. You see they knew my bowels were in bad shape. Q. Is that the reason you didn’t sleep on a bed, the condition of your bowels? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did the attendants do to relieve you of that condition? 99 A. They didn’t do anything much. They would come and wipe me off. I remember once Dr. Thompson came around and saw what a fix I was in and he got one of those wall syringes and washed me off. Before that this fellow Harmon, a patient down here, came down there and I was so awfully sore. He sent and got a pan and was washing me off, just had an old cloth and was rubbing me, and I could hardly stand it, and I said please get away I could not stand that, and he rammed my head up against the wall. Q. He is here now? A. Yes, sir; and Dr. Thompson came along and I asked him to bathe me, and he had a tub sent, and he says, you must be more careful. I heard him on the outside of the door. Q. To whom, one of the attendants? A. He sent a solution to wash me with. The attendant did not come often enough and I got that fellow Harmon. I told him to come and get me some good water, and I would give him twenty-five cents a week to bring water and bathe me oftener, and he did it. He was anxious to get the money. I gave him the money. Q. After the agreement with Harmon, did he give you good attention? A. Yes, sir. Q. He kept you clean? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever make a complaint about the nurses allowing you to lie there in your own filth? A. Yes, sir, I did make complaints. Q. Who did you make complaints to? A. To old man Book¬ man. I told him he ought to be ashamed of himself. 0 . He was a nurse? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you make any complaint to Mr. Mitchell, Dr. Thompson or Dr. Babcock? A. I can’t remember. I will not say that I did. Q. You can’t say that you did? A. No, sir. Q. Did Dr. Thompson or the dispenser either see you in that condition, when you were lying there in that condition ? A. I don’t think he did. I could not be sure whether he did or not. O. How about Mr. Mitchell? A. Mr. Mitchell? No, I don’t think I ever saw him there. I have seen Dr. Thompson come to the door once, and I called him and lie asked me a few questions, and he says, “You are coming on very well. You are getting on nicely,’’ and then I began to get better attention. Q. You felt you were getting better? A. Yes, sir. I was a mighty weak man. Q. After you had that conference with Dr. Thompson you got better attention? A. Yes, sir. lOO \ Q. How long had you been here up to that time? A. I could not state exactly how long it was that I was here. Q. From then on you got good attention? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any other complaint of your own treatment against any of the authorities ? A. No, sir. After I got out so that I could walk I was treated all right. Q. By everybody? A. By everybody. Everybody seemed to like me. I was treated all right. Q. Did any other nurse ever mistreat you? A. Yes, sir, I had to report several nurses, and, of course, that would make them have hard feelings. Q. What did you report? A. I reported several. I reported Stewart for beating Mr.-. Q. Who did you make that report to ? A. Dr. Thompson. O. What was his condition? A. Well, I called Dr. Thompson in one morning. Let me explain. Mr. Stewart came down on the first ward, and we had some patients there that was mighty bad, and if you went into their room they would knock you down or beat you up. I was trying to toll him up towards the front door, and I met Dr. Thompson coming down stairs, and I says, “Dr., I was trying to get Mr. - out of the way,” I says, “What ward does he belong to?” He says, “The sixth ward.” He says, “Mr.-, I wish you would take him up to the sixth ward and turn him over to Mr. Stewart.” I says, “All right, doctor.” I had trouble with him. He was wild and contrary, but I coaxed and got him up on the sixth ward, and turned him over to Mr. Stewart. I says, "Here is Mr. -. Doctor told me to bring him up.” “Well, turn him loose,” he says, and I came on down. That Sunday afternoon Mr. - was back on that ward, and Mr. Stewart came down after him, and he says, “Go on, Mr. -, go up to your ward,” and he says, “No, I tell you Mr. Stewart—” Q. That was Mr. -? A. I says, “Oh, no, Mr. -, you 1 must go with your watchman now,” and I caught hold of one side of his arm and Mr. Stewart caught hold of the other, and as I caught hold of him he hauls oft" and hits him as hard as he could with his fist. My temper got up. I says, “You will never get me to help you with a man when you have got to beat him,” and it was all I could do to hold myself. I had to walk away from him. When the doctor came down I reported it to him. Q. What did the doctor say? A. He thanked me two or three times. He said he would attend to it. IOI Q. What became of Stewart? He is here. Q. Was he discharged? A. No, sir. Q. Did you tell him you had seen that? A. Yes, sir. He told me I was all the witness he wanted. Q. Was - doing anything besides refusing to go with him? A. No, sir. Q. He did not offer to strike him? A. Mr.-? Q. Yes. A. No sir. He was harmless. He would not hurt you. Q. You say he struck him with his fist and kicked him? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you walked off? A. Yes, sir. Q. What became of-. Is he here yet? A. No, sir. He went home after I left, so I heard. Q. How long after that before he went home? A. After what? Q. How long after that occurrence before he left here? A. I don’t know exactly how long, two or three months, I suppose. 0 . Do you know how long - had been here when that happened? A. I could not state that either. Q. Is Stewart here yet, or do you know? A. Stewart? Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir. Q. He is still here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever see any other assault on any patient by a keeper ? A. I saw the same man, but I can’t recollect the patient. He is in the Taylor building. 0 . Did you know all the patients Mr.-mentioned? A. No, sir. Q. -,-, -? A. No, sir. Q. None of them? A. No, sir. Q. Who made the assault on him ? A. Stewart. Q. This same man? A. Yes, sir. Q. When was that? A. That was about, I suppose, a month as near as I can come at it. He was coming down the ward, and this fellow in the Taylor building got after Stewart about locking him up on the fifth ward. He caught him up there and locked him up, and Stewart was sort of scared to tackle him, and he called Mr. Wilson to come up and help him, and they grabbed him, Mr. Stewart hit him and beat him like everything. Mr. Wilson says, “Look here, I can’t hold a man and let you beat him. You have got to turn him loose.” Q. Who is Mr. Wilson? A. He is here. 102 Q. Was he one of the nurses at that time? A. Yes, sir. I was on the ward with him for a year. Q. Is he connected with the institution now? A. No, sir. Q. How long since he left ? A. He says he has been quit about a month. Q. Did Mr. Wilson see that assault? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that is the same man sitting here? A. Yes, sir. . Q. Did you make any report of that? A. No, sir. Q. You did not report that to anybody? A. No, sir. Q. Did you see Pressley assaulted, patient Pressley? A. No, sir. Q. -? A. No, sir. Q. -? A. No, sir. I saw him afterwards. I did not see them when they did it, but I saw him afterwards. 0 . Saw which one? A. -. Q. Tell us about that? A. There were Smith and Durham who were on the ward. Q. Which Smith? A. Will Smith, I believe. Q. They were nurses? A. On the first ward, yes, sir. Q. Who assaulted him ? A. There was Smith. He was off that afternoon, and it was supper time, and I was helping to get out the food. I helped the plates and I put them all around, and I said, “Where is -?” and Smith says, “I don’t know where he is, I will go and hunt him up,” and I was busy fixing the plates and handing them around. The next thing I saw, here he came shoving him and kicking him, and the next thing he was down on the floor, and he kicked him on the shins. Q. -kicked him? A. Yes, sir; he was on the floor. Q. Both of the nurses? A. Both of the nurses jumped on him. They got on him and choked and kicked him from the lower part of the ward plumb up to the upper end, and threw him into his room. Q. What was the reason for assaulting him? A. He would not come as fast as Smith wanted him to come. Q. To the ward? A. To his meal. Q. That was the cause of the assault? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever report that to anybody? A. Dr. Thompson. I tried to do it that night. Q. When was it reported to Dr. Thompson? A. Next morning. Q. What did the doctor say? A. He thanked me for it, and went on and examined Bailey. He went from my room to his. Q. Was Bailey hurt much? A. He had a little scratch here (indicating). It was here and in the sides. He knew where to hit 103 to keep it from showing. I was watching them there inside of the room. I was standing at the door, and-came to me and says, “Dr. Thompson ought to see that man,” and I went to the second ward and searched to see if I could get Dr. Thompson. He was lying on the floor with his clothes up. Q. What was his condition? A. I could not tell you what was the matter. I could not tell you anything. Q. Was he harmless? A. Harmless? If you ordered him or shoved him around he would kick and cause trouble. Q. Was he disposed to be contrary, or would he mind the attendant? A. He always minded me. I bathed him every week and never had any trouble with him. I carried him to the bath tub and bathed him, and put on his clothes. Q. Did you see any other act of violence? A. Yes, sir, a sight of them. Q. Others? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know by what keepers they were, or not? A. Well, I will have to think awhile. Q. Give us such instances as occur to you, if you can remember. If you can’t, just make a general statement? A. I would rather wait awhile and go on with something else. Q. Can you tell us what became of Smith and Durham that assaulted that man? A. They were on the ward. Smith came to me after I reported him, the next night,, and he gave me some pretty rough talk. Q. Gave you some? A. Yes, sir, he said, “You didn’t have anything to do with it.” Came to me the next morning, came to me, to my room, and I says, “What is it you want?” He says, “I hear you are going to report us to Dr. Thompson.” I says, “What did I tell you when I came on the ward.” I says, “If you are in the right, I will stick by you.” I says, “My efforts are to help suffering humanity,” and I says, “I will go down and do anything for them, for I have been a sufferer myself,” and I says, “If you kill me all you have got to do is to kill me, but I will not uphold you in this.” Q. What about that matter of reports? Would they give you trouble when you reported these nurses? A. Yes, sir; yes, sir; they would give me bricks for awhile . Durham Brown came into my room, and he was begging me not to report them. He says, “Now, Mr. Syfan, don’t report us to the doctor this time. It will never happen any more.” I says, “I am going to do my duty, sir, and I 104 will feel that my skirts are clear. I am going to let it be known to Dr. Thompson.” Every man on the ward came to me. They all saw it. They gathered around me, and says, ‘‘You can get a hearing from Dr. Thompson, and it is your duty to go and report it.” Q. Those were the patients? A. Every one on the first floor says it is your duty. They said, ‘‘You can get a hearing from Dr. Thompson, and you go and make the report.” O. Did you get the hearing? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did the doctor do? A. He thanked me, and said as I said before, and went to see the fellow. Q. Do you remember any instances of teasing and cursing patients by any of them ? A. That was done a good deal. Q. Was it done without cause? A. Yes, sir. 0 . Did they do you that way any? A. No, sir. I never would allow them. I never would let them treat me in that way. They knew I did not take any stock in anything like that. O. Did you participate in that yourself, teasing and worrying patients? A. No, sir. I tried to be a help to them. Q. These keepers you spoke of, were they young men or old men? A. Young men, all but Mr. Bookman. He was the oldest man. Q. What was the general demeanor—kind to them—the nurses generally? A. Well, they were pretty rough to them, most of them. Q. Did any of them need rough treatment? A. Some did. Q. Some did? A. Yes, sir. I have helped to put them in their rooms myself. Q. For violent conduct? A. Yes, sir. I have fed them when the ward men were scared to go in. Q. Scared? A. Yes, sir. I attended to them and never got a scratch. They would knock the milk over me, but when I got the cup to their mouths they would drink it right down. Q. They would take it from you? A. Yes, sir. 0 . And would not take it from the nurses? A. It seemed like I could get it into them. I would have more patience, I reckon. 0 . The first is what is known as the best ward? A. No, sir. O. What is that? A. The first is the feeble ward. Q. The feeble ward? A. Yes, sir. O. How was the food on that ward? A. Well, sir, it was pretty tough. 0 . Did you all take your meals in the ward or in the mess hall? A. In the ward. io5 Q. Did you have a dining room in the ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. You say it was pretty tough. In what respect was it tough? A. The food, some of it, we could not eat. I could not. I served the food there for a year. Q. You served it? A. I helped fix it, and carry it and put it to the places. We would have hominy, and we would get three or four eggs and milk, sweet milk, and chicken soup. Q. Three or four apiece? A. No, sir, for the ward. There were from eighteen to twenty on the first ward, and we would have chicken soup, eggs and hominy and rice. Q. How was the rice cooked, pretty well? A. No, sir, I could not eat it. O. What was the objection to it? A. It was glue. Q. Glue? A. Yes, sir. Q. How about the hominy ? A. The hominy was pretty tough. Q. The coffee? A. It was rough. Q. Weak? A. Yes, sir, tasteless. 0 . Clean ? A. I could not tell whether it was clean or not. Q. Served in a clean dish ? A. Sometimes the dishes were pretty rough. The cups were greasy, black and beaten up. Q. Tin dishes? A. Yes, sir. Q. Cups tin? A. Yes, sir. Q. How about the soup? A. Sometimes the soup was very nice. We got very nice soup. Q. The vegetables? A. Pretty tough. Q. The vegetables themselves or the cooking? A. The cook¬ ing. The vegetables, when they came from the farm, were very nice. It was the managing of them after they came here. At times it was good, and then you would find hard lumps in the grub. Q. That was in the bread? A. Yes, sir, corn bread, pretty tough. Q. Meats? A. We didn’t get any. Q. They didn’t serve you meats? A. Nothing but boiled meats, and a little fried chicken occasionally. Q. Was the bacon raised on the farm? A. No, sir. Q. Bought bacon? A. Yes, sir. Q. Milk? A. Pretty tough. Q. What was the objection to the milk? A. Well, sir, when you go to pour out the milk you can see a great deal of settlement at the bottom, black, dirty settlement at the bottom. After you pour to the bottom it was pretty rough. io6 Q. All the time, or just at times? A. It was worse at times, you know. Q. What was that sediment—dirt? A. Filth. Q. Did you know where the milk came from? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever go to the dairy? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know how it was kept? A. Yes, sir. Q. How ? A. Pretty rough. O. Who did the milking? A. Patients. 0 . Colored or white? A. Colored. Q. Who was in charge of the dairy? Who was at the head of it? A. Mr. Hedgepath. Q. He was superintendent of it? A. I suppose so. He was the man that ran it. Q. How about the cows, good cows? A. Very good nice cows. Q. Did you ever see the milking going on? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were they cleanly in milking? A. No, sir. Q. How did they conduct it? A. I used to go out there and shell up the corn and everything. That is where we get our sacks to get corn from the corn crib, and Mr. Hendrix was to detail a man, and he says, “- come on and go with me to the dairy and get some sacks to put the corn in,” and I went there, and I saw those crazy fellows milking. During the time they were milking they were chewing and spitting across the bucket, chewing tobacco, and I saw a cow that had her foot in filth raise it and set it in the bucket, and I was looking for him to wash it out, and he just milked right on into the bucket. Q. Do you know the name of the negro? A. No, sir. I says, “I wish I hadn’t come here.” and he said this was nothing. Q. Did you ever see the milking going on on any other occasion ? A. Yes, sir, several times. Q. Did this man Hedgepath have the superintendency of the milking? Was he connected with the milking? A. He was down to the lower side. 0 . Was he superintendent of that part of the farm? Was that his business? A. That was his business. Q. Was he present when the milking was going on? A. No, sir, he was at the lower side. Q. Did you report it to him ? A. No, sir, I reported it to Hendrix. Q. Who was he? A. He was my keeper at the time. Q. What did Hendrix say? A. He says, “Oh, well, it is no use reporting anything.” I says, ‘‘Why don’t you report that?” He says, “Oh, it is no use. When it goes to the kitchen it is the same thing.” Q. Was it the same thing in the kitchen? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you in there much? A. I was in there several times. Q. What filth did you discover in there? A. Those patients. The work was mostly done by the patients. Q. Were they doing the cooking? A. Principally. Q. White or colored? A. Colored. Q. Men? A. Yes, sir. I w r ould see them come from the mill with our grits, and they never washed it at all. Q. They did not? A. Nobody did. Q. Hominy? A. Meal too. Q. Was the meal used by the institution ground here? A. Yes, sir. I have been to the mill while it was going on, and saw them when they got it from there, and saw them when they fed it to the patients without washing it. Q. When they got through milking, what did they do with the milk? A. They would bring it to the house. Q. Bring it to the house? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever go in there and examine the milk? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know how it was managed after it was brought here? A. No, sir. Q. You don’t know that? A. I don’t know. Q. You don’t know about that? A. I don’t know, sir. Q. Was it kept in an outhouse before it was called for, before it was called for to be served? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did the patients drink it up ? A. Some would, and some would not. Q. Did they complain against it much? A. Not a great deal. On my ward there were not very many that would eat enough to know. Q. Did they have pretty good appetites? A. Some did and some didn’t. Q. Most of them on your ward were epileptics ? A. No, sir, we had a good many who were not. Q. You had a very serious bowel trouble. How did the food agree with you? A. I ate very little. I had to drink milk. Q. And eggs ? A. Yes, sir, I got eggs. Q. How often did you get eggs? A. I got eggs three times a day. Q. Very nice? A. No, sir, pretty tough. io8 Q. How are they cooked? A. They would come in right hard around the whites, the yellow soft. Q. Fried? A. Fried, I suppose, on a pan, mighty dirty under¬ neath. I took a knife and peeled it off underneath before I would try to eat them. 0 . Did you ever have any instructions about extras down here? A. Yes, sir. I asked them to let me have coffee. I said I would furnish my own coffee if they would boil it down there, but they said if one started it, all would want to have it, and they would not allow it. 0 . Did they serve any butter on your ward? A. Oleomargarine. Q. Was it pretty'good? A. I could not eat it. Q. Was it clean? A. Well, it looked very well. Q. What kind of dishes was it served in? A. Tin plates. 0 . Each patient would have some on his plate? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did all the patients complain at the butter? A. Yes, sir, they said they could not eat it. Q. Who would bring this food into the ward to be served? A. I would help to do it sometimes. Q. From the kitchen? A. From the fourth ward. It would come up in an elevator. Q. Whose business was it to bring it? A. I suppose the nurses, but I helped them serve it. They would ask me to do it. Q. These patients that were doing the cooking down there, were they cleanly themselves ? A. Patients ? Q. That were doing the cooking, did they keep themselves clean ? A. No, sir. Q. How about the milking? A. They were dirty. They would be handling the meal, and they would be dusty with cottonseed meal (you know how a man looks with cottonseed meal on him), and they would be raking out the stables, and they would have cottonseed meal on them, and you can judge from that how they looked. 0 . Do you know whether all those milkers were patients or a fraction of them ? A. All were patients but two, the two watchmen. I turned them out of the gate every morning for two months. Q. Those two that were not patients, were they cleanly? A. Yes, sir. O. You saw no objection to their milking? A. No, sir. Q. This gentleman who was at the head of it, did he make any effort to correct that, show them how to do? Did he instruct them? log A. I don’t know about that. I was just in and out. I would be in and out. Q. Just occasinally? A. Just occasionally; I came there for sacks, and would come there and go around the crib. Q. These patients doing the work over there, were they such patients as labored on the farm? A. You mean those that went on the detail ? Q. Those that milked the cattle, were they allowed to do that all the time? A. Yes, sir, a certain number went there all the time to do the milking. Q. Did they have pretty good clothes? A. No, sir, some did and some did not. Q. You think they were too unsanitary to do the milking? A. Yes, sir. You can judge of that by this: There is a stream that goes between the laundry and the dairy by the back gate, and one of them took his hat and ran down and dipped it into the filth and things and commenced drinking it, and I said, “Don’t drink that, don’t drink that,” and he went right on drinking. Q. He drank the water with the filth in it? A. Yes, sir. Q. These cooks in the kitchen, are they all patients or are there some hired ones in there? A. Some hired ones. Q. How were they? Were they clean? A. They did very well. Q. They didn’t take any steps to make those clean who were handling the food ? A. I don’t know anything about that, about what steps they took. I just happen to see it. I would be around there, and would see. Q. Did you see these filthy cooks handling the dough, bread and meat? A. Yes, sir. Q. With their hands? A. Yes, sir. Q. How about the servants in the dining room when the food was brought in to be served to the patients, in the general dining room ? A. The big mess hall ? Q. Yes. A. I was in there several times, yes, sir; I have been in there a good many times. Q. Who were the meals served by? A. The man in charge, assisted by the patients. Q. The man at the head of the mess hall? A. Yes, sir. Q. He was not a patient? A. No, sir. The way they would do would be to put it on the plates first, and then put on each plate all the things that they were going to have. no Q. Was it cleanly served? Was it clean in there? A. It was just about like it was on our ward. Q. Like it was on your ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. Served in these tin plates? Yes, sir. Q. The patients ate pretty freely? A. Some would and some would not. Q. How was the ward itself in which you staid kept? Was it kept clean, or was it allowed to become filthy? A. I did a heap of work on my ward. It was kept clean. Q. How? A. I scrubbed it myself. We kept our ward in very good shape. Q. By the patients or nurses? A. Patients. I was on the ward with Mr. Wilson for a year, and we worked together and kept the ward the best we could. Q. Did the nurses help you? A. Mr. Wilson did. Q. You have no complaint at the way your ward was kept, have you? A. Of course, sometimes we could not keep it clean. Q. On the whole, was the ward kept pretty well? A. As well as— Q. Could be expected? A. Yes, sir. I worked hard to keep it clean. Q. You worked hard to keep it clean? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were the beds pretty good? A. I had a very good bed. Some of them we would have to change from four to five times a day. I have done it myself from four to five times. Take them and wash them, and put on clean clothes. Q. That was the epileptics? A. Yes, sir, and others. Q. Were the mattresses pretty good? A. Some. You would have to use some judgment about using the bedding. Q. Were they kept clean? A. Kept clean? You can fix them, and in half an hour’s time they are in the same fix. Q. The beds? You could not wash them? A. Extra beds. Q. How would you clean them? A. We would keep a rubber under them the best we could. Sometimes as soon as you turn your back they would be off. Q. As a matter of fact, it was almost impossible to keep them clean? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were there many of that class of patients on your ward? A. A good many. Q. Did you use wooden bedsteads? A. Some wood and some iron. Ill Q. Was there covering sufficient and clean? A. Well, that is one thing it was hard to do. Of course, I tried my level best while I was on my ward to see after my ward for these poor people, suffer¬ ers, the best way I knew how, and we would try to sun them. I would take them out there and sun them. I helped take them out, but it was sort of hard. It took a man. There was so much of it. It is hard work to keep their beds straight. Q. Did you have covering enough? A. Yes, sir. Q. Kept as clean as you could with that class of patients in there? A. I will not say that. Q. You will not say that? A. No, sir. Q. Kept fairly clean? A. Fairly. Q. Were there any bedbugs in your ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. Many? A. A good many in places, a sight of them. Q. Was any effort made to stamp them out? A. Just could not do it. We would go over it once a week, sometimes twice a week. Q. What did you use to try to stamp them out with ? A. I don’t know the name of it. It was— Q. A preparation? A. Provided for that purpose. Q. Carbolic acid? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who furnished it to you? A. Got it from the storehouse—Mr. Bunch. Q. From the storehouse here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Used for that purpose? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were they usually anywhere except on the beds? A. On the walls. Q. Weren’t the walls plastered? A. Yes, sir, you could see splotches as big as your hand on them. Q. Who used that preparation, the nurses or the patients there? A. I used it in my ward. Q. Did any one help you? A. I would get some of the rest of the patients. Q. Would the nurses do* it? A. Mr. Wilson would help me. O. The nurses would help you? A. Mr. Wilson would. Q. Was there much complaint about the bedbugs? A. A good deal, yes, sir. Q. That is a pretty hard thing to do—to stamp them out? A. About as hard a job as you want to undertake. I have white¬ washed myself two rooms on the fourth ward for George Brown. He asked me if I knew how to mix whitewash and I said, “Yes, sir.” I 12 Q. Would that destroy them? A. It helped out the matter won¬ derfully. I whitewashed a big room on the fourth ward and George Brown’s room. Q. Did that condition prevail in other wards besides the one you were on ? A. It was on all of them, every ward. When I was not busy on the first ward I would go on the fourth and help over there sometimes. Q. You made yourself useful while in there? A. Yes, sir. Q. I suppose you got along better when you were employed ? A. Yes, sir. I got along better, and felt better. Q. Was it satisfactory to the authorities for you to superintend and engage in these things? A. Yes, sir, seemed so. Q. And helped you? A. Yes, sir. The attendants knew of it. Doctor would come there and ask me how my bowels were, and he knew I carried them to the bathtub. Q. Did you ever see more than one bathed in the same water? A. Certainly, when I first went there, I had them in hand. I bathed ever}' man once a week. I changed the water, but before I had it in hand, I have seen fifteen or twenty go into the same water suffer¬ ing from itch and everything else. Q. Epileptics or those that had more sense? A. Yes, sir, we bathed everything on the ward. Q. You saw them bathing different patients in the same water? A. Yes, sir. Q. I was asking what class of patients they bathed that way ? A. They bathed all of them on the fourth ward. I suppose they were doing it when I left. Q. Who would do that ? A. The nurses that bathed the patients. Harmon was bathing them. Q. Did you ever bathe more than one in the same water? A. Sometimes I could not get through and I would bathe two at a time, but never went further than that. Q. Was there any scarcity of water? A. No, sir. Sometimes we could not get hot water. Q. There was a scarcity of hot water ? A. We could not get more hot water. 0 . There was always plenty of cold water? A. Yes, sir. O. Which did you bathe them in ? A. I would turn on the warm water and turn on the cold, and get the bath— Q. At the proper temperature? A. Yes, sir. JI 3 Q. How were the bath rooms kept, the rooms themselves ? A. At times pretty rough on the fourth ward. It was simply awful. They would take clothes stripped from those people sometimes and leave them there, and I would get after them, but they would pay no attention. They would strip those fellows that had bowel trouble. Q. Strip off their clothes? A. Yes, sir, those that had the bowels bad. Q. The clothes, how were they kept? A. The clothes were kept very well, I suppose. Q. The clothing that came from the laundry? A. We could not say anything against that. The clothing did very well. Q. How often did you change your clothes? A. The change of clothes was according to the patient. Sometimes would have to change a patient two or three times a day. Q. Would the clothing be furnished by the State or by a patient? A. By the State. Q. Did they furnish sufficient clothing for that class of patients? A. Yes, sir, very good clothing. Q. You ward seems to have been conducted pretty well? A.Yes, sir, as long as Mr. Wilson stayed on the ward we got along pretty nicely. No sooner than he would come in, Mr. Wilson would see what the patients needed and he would get it. Q. How long was he there? A. I was on there with him one year. Q. Was he here when you came? A. No, sir. Q. Was he kind and respectful to the patients? A. Yes, sir, the best man that I saw on the wards towards patients, seeing after them, and seeing that they got what was sent to them. Q. Where did Mr. Wilson come from? A. I don’t know, sir. Q. Mr.-, you seem to think that you were kept in here too long, is that true? A. I think so, yes, sir. 0. Were your folks at home willing for you to come out? A. Yes, sir, they were glad, but they wanted me to get a free discharge. O. Was there anything in the way of getting a free discharge? A. Yes, sir. 0. What was it? A. I asked the doctor to carry me in front of the board seven or eight times. He said he would carrv my name. Q. Which doctor? A. Dr. Thompson. Q. He said he would carry your name? A. Yes, sir. Q. This was after you came back the second time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you have any difficulty about getting out the first time? A. My brothers came and got me. They signed papers to carry me 8—A. home. The Judge of Probate had fixed the papers up there at home. Q. How long did you stay at home? A. The first time? 0. Yes. A. Nine months. Q. You staid at home nine months? A. Yes, sir. Q. Before you were sent back? A. Yes, sir. Q. You got off again? A. Yes, sir, the reason I was off, I had been very hard at work running a stationary engine there. I never got off from the railroad any night before ten or eleven, and then the condition I was in. I had a hard job there to work before I ran that engine, after I left here for nine months, and the Seaboard was glad to get me back. They gave me my job back as soon as I reached Abbeville. I went to work there with the Seaboard Railroad, and they got me to start up on the Saturday evening before I took this cold and my mind gave way. I was a mighty sick man then, I came to the foreman on the clinker pit at Abbeville, and said, “Mr. Leach, I am not able to see after washing out my boiler this after¬ noon, I wish you would get the apprentice boy to see about putting the plugs in the boiler,” and he said, “All right, go home and be at ease.” I went home, and I was a mighty sick man and laid down on my bed. That night I was annoyed by their running in there and saying the shops were on fire. They told me to get up and go down, but I did not pay any attention, I was feeling so bad. Q. You were in a pretty bad fix the second time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Worse than the first? A. I don’t know that I was. Q. How long after you came before you began to feel better? A. The only way I can judge was that my wife wrote me and in the letter she says, “What is the matter? I haven’t got a letter from you in three weeks,” and I got up at the same time and answered her letter. That is the time I said I wrote to her on my knees. Q. How long had you been in here before you thought you ought to get out of here the second time? A. I was anxious to get out I expect before I was able to get out. I was a mighty sick man. I wanted to get out in two months. Q. You wanted to get out too soon? A. Yes, sir. Q. All want to do that? A. Yes, sir. 0. All are that way? A. Yes, sir. Q. Usually they want to come out before they ought? That is your observation here? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you began to want to get out, did you make your wishes known to Dr. Thompson? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then he stated to you that your name would be brought before the board? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it brought before the board? A. He said so. Q. What was the decision? A. He said that Dr. Babcock wanted more time. Q. Thought you should stay longer? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was your name brought any other time? A. Several times, yes, sir. Q. The decision was the same each time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Thought you ought to stay longer? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you did get out, did you get a free discharge? A. No, sir. Q. What kind of discharge did you get? A. I did not get any. I had to get a lawyer to get out of here. Q. Did you have a lawyer to get you out? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you have a case in Court over it? A. No, sir. Q. But a lawyer got you out? A. Yes, sir. Q. How did the lawyer get you out? A. Well, I just sent for him, I suppose. I don’t know how it was. Q. You said they signed that usual paper they signed for parties when they got out ? A. I suppose so. I did not see any. Q. Did anybody else sign your paper besides your lawyer? A. I think Mr. Prince. Q. Where did Mr. Prince live? A. Lived at the factory, I think. Q. Lived at a factory here? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is his business? A. He is a machinist, I think, a loom- fixer. Q. Is he a relative of yours? A. No, sir, no kin. Q. How did he come to interest himself in your case,-? A. I was on the street once and saw him, and he seemed to take a favor to me. He thought I ought to be out. He said, “What in the world are you doing in there?” something like that. I can’t say his exact words. Q. When you were taken out, did anvtbody go home with you? A. No, sir. Q. Did you go by yourself? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you stay in the city any after you were discharged? A. One night. Q. Who did you stay with ? A. Mr. Prince. Q. Is Mr. Prince a man of character and standing in the com¬ munity? A. I suppose so. n6 Q. You don’t know anything against him? A. Only a short acquaintance. Q. He met you on the yard and interested himself in getting you out? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you have a job on the premises? A. Back gate keeper. Q. How long did you have that job? A. Two months. Q. Did you have it when you left? A. No, sir. Q. Was there any pay attached to the job? A. Yes, sir. Q. How much? A. Twelve dollars a month. Q. How came you to give it up? A. I never gave it up. They called me in. The old man, Mr. Green, he was sick, and I was put in his place, to fill his place until he got well. Q. Did you ever apply for a job again? A. No, sir. Q. Any other job? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you get it? A. No, sir. Q. Did you get any other job? A. No, sir. Q. Did you get anybody to try to get a job for you? A. Yes, sir, Wyatt Aiken. I got Wyatt Aiken. I wrote and asked if he could be any help, and he wrote to Dr. Babcock, and also wrote to me. Q. About getting you a job? A. Yes, sir. 0. He is from Abbeville? A. Yes, sir. 0. Mr. Aiken is also from Abbeville? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did Mr. Lyon ever interest himself in getting you a job? A. Yes, sir. Q. He is from Abbeville also? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever see Mr. Aiken or Mr. Lyon ? A. While in here ? O. Yes. A. I saw Mr. Lyon. Q. Where ? A. He brought a patient and came and called on me. 0. Were you allowed to go out into the city? A. With the nurses I was. Q. Did you ever go down to the State House? A. Yes, sir. 0. Did you see Mr. Lyon down there? A. Yes, sir, and Mr. Q. It seems you had several jobs while here? A. Yes, sir. I was in the laundry. I ran the laundry for three months. Q. How did you like that job? A. I liked it very well, but there was not enough pay in it. O. How much? A. One dollar a month and Mr. Clark gave me fifty cents. Q. Did you apply for another job just before you went home? A. Yes, sir, I wrote to Dr. Babcock asking him to give me some¬ thing after these men wrote to him. I asked how was he going to give me anything to do. Q. What did he say? A. He never did write any answer. He never sent me any answer. Q. Would you have been willing to stay if you had gotten a job? A. Well, I would have stayed, yes. Q. You would have been willing to stay with a job? A. In the condition I was in. I would have tried to make myself satisfied. Q. Was your wife satisfied with your remaining here up to the time you got out? A. I suppose so; yes, sir. Q. Your brothers in Abbeville? A. I can’t say they were, but they wanted a free discharge. They carried me out once and took the responsibility, and my brothers came here to see Dr. Babcock and Dr. Thompson, and they told him (this was -) not to take me out of here. Q. - is your brother? Q. Who told him ? A. Dr. Babcock. 0. Why? A. He said that I would cause trouble. 0. What did your brother say at the time? A. I don’t know, sir. 0. Were they willing to send for you and get you out? A. No, sir. 0. They were not? A. No, sir. They said that it was the duty of the doctors to give me a free discharge. 0. Did you ever make an application to the Board of Regents yourself for a discharge? A. Never could get to see them. I have done it through Dr. Thompson. 0. You did not know the names of the board ? A. No, sir. Q. You never addressed any communication to the board? A. No, sir. Q. 1 he only way you asked for a discharge was through Dr. Thompson? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did the doctor think of your condition ? A. The doctor has told me several times that they ought to give me something that would pay me or give me a free discharge. Q. A job or a free discharge? A. Yes, sir. 0. Did he think you were in condition to be discharged? Did he ever state that? A. That is the only satisfaction I got. He said he ought to give me something to do. Q. Or a discharge? A. A discharge. n8 Q. Did the doctor ever recommend your discharge? A. I could not say. Q. Did he ever state to you that he would recommend your discharge? A. He said he would do all he could for me in that matter. Q. Why is it your folks were not willing for your discharge— because this condition was attached? A. My affections, I suppose. Q. Your affections? A. Yes, sir. Q. They thought you ought to remain here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it the physical affection or your mental condition? A. I was all to pieces, you know, at the time. My bowels were in a terrible fix the time that I came here. I had no control of my bowels at all even at night. Even now all my actions come on cotton. I have got no control of my bowels at all. Q. And that affected your mind? A. Yes, sir, at that time. It did not last a very long time, as Dr. Thompson will state to you. Q. Are they in a better fix now, your bowels? A. Splendid. Sometimes I can hit my actions. If I feel a little pain I make for the closet. Q. Does it affect your mind now? A. Not a bit. Q. Your mind is perfectly clear? A. Perfectly clear. Q. Are you able to do any work? A. Yes, sir. Q. What sort of work? A. Most anything. Q. What are you engaged in now ? A. I am out on the farm with my brother helping him, building barns and see after his farm. I have stopped only a day or so since I have been there. Q. Your family is with you, I suppose? A. No, sir. Q. Where is your family, at Abbeville? A. Yes, sir. Q. Which one of your brothers are you on the farm with? A. Q. Was your father-in-law willing for you to come out of here? A. No, sir. Q. He was not willing? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know why? A. I could not say, only my disease. Q. Your disease physically or mentally? A. Mentally. Q. What is the business of your wife’s father? A. A doctor. Q. A practicing physician? A. Not practicing, no, sir. 0. He is a physician? A. Yes, sir. Q. He lives at Abbeville Court House? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you seen much of him? A. Passed and repassed him. Q. Frequently? A. Yes, sir. ii9 Q. And you are not living with your family at the present time ? A. No, sir. Q. Is there anybody else in here trying to get out you think ought to be let out at that time ? A. Yes, sir,-. Q. From Marlboro? A. Yes, sir; I think he is. Q. Is he in here now? A. I could not say. Q. Did he try to get out? A. Yes, sir; he was always wanting his name to go in front of the board. Q. You don’t know anything about how long he was kept in here? A. No, sir, I could not say. I came here and found him here when I came. 0. You think from general appearances he ought to be out, do you? A. Yes, sir, from his talk and acts. Q. Anybody else? A. There were a good many, but I can’t think of their names. I worked on the farm. They were picking peas sometimes. I can’t think of their names. Q. Were there many inebriates here at that time, who came here from drink and drugs? A. Not so many on our ward. Most of them were on the second ward. Q. Any of your nature? A. No, sir, not that I know of. Q. Did you take your meals in the little pay room or in the general mess hall ? A. On the first ward. Q. That applies to the feeble patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Their meals are brought to them? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you take part in any of the amusements around here, base¬ ball, etc. ? A. No, sir. Q. You were never in condition? A. No, sir. Q. I suppose your entire ward was the same way. How did you amuse yourself on the ward? A. I never was on the ward much. Q. On your own ward? A. I was working with those feeble patients. I would read a good deal. Dr. Thompson was mighty kind. He would bring down religious papers. O. Have you any reason to complain of the treatment by Dr. Thompson while you were in here? A. Not a bit. Q. Did the other patients have any complaints against Dr. Thomp¬ son ? A. You know some would. • Q. Not that you considered well founded? A. No, sir. Q. None? A. No, sir. Q. Was his treatment of the patients in there kind and humane? A. Yes, sir. Q. He did all he could for them? A. Yes, sir. 120 Q. He seemed to be a general favorite with the patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. You are willing to give him justice? A. I have never seen a more devoted man than Dr. Thompson was, because I went around with him, and those are facts, that he was kind to them. Q. How do you account for all of these complaints coming from the wards over which Dr. Thompson had charge, if he treated you that way? A. It was the patients. Q. It was the fault of the patients? A. I mean— 0. The keepers, you mean ? A. The keepers ? Q. The nurses ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do any instances occur to you at which Dr. Thompson was at fault in not seeing that these men were disciplined in here? A. Now, I will tell you, they knew Dr. Thompson’s time. Q. The keepers? A. Yes, sir. And they would be on their p’s and q’s when he came. 0. The bulk of these things you refer to were done while Dr. Thompson was absent, and they all knew that he was absent at the time? A. Yes, sir. Q. You had no complaint whatever against Dr. Thompson? A. Not a word; no, sir. Q. And you don’t know anybody else whp did? A. No, sir, I don’t see how anybody could. Q. Was he faithful in his medical attention to the patients there? A. Sure. Q. He came to see the sick? A. Yes, sir. 0. Prescribed for them? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who would attend to his prescriptions when given ? A. Some¬ times I would. Q. Sometimes you would ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you had any experience along that line? A. I would go for the medicine up to the fifth ward and bring it down. Q. I suppose you were very careful in carrying out the prescrip¬ tion? A. Yes, sir, I would always—in fact, if the doctor would come in to give them their medicines, I would help him give it to them. Some could not give it to them, and I would give it to them. 0. Did you volunteer or did the doctor request you to do it? A. The doctor would ask me sometimes about these things. The doctor knew that I had charge of those men up there on the ward. Q. Where would you keep your medicines that you gave to the 121 patients ? A. On the ward. Sometimes would not have any and would have to go to the fifth ward. Q. Did you look in that room, the medicine room, when you were looking for a prescription, to see that the room was well kept, and the medicines in order, or did the nurses have charge of that? A. The nurses, they had the keys. Q. Was the medical room kept in good order? A: Very good order. Q. Were the vessels clean ? A. I can't say. Sometimes they were clean, and sometimes they were not. Q. Who sent you up on the fifth ward to get medicines? A. Several of them. Q. Patients? A. Nurses. Q. Who were they? A. Most of them, every one, I suppose. O. They would send you up to get the medicines? A. Yes, sir. Q. Your services in that line were very acceptable to the patients and the nurses? A. Yes, sir. Q. They made no complaint of you? A. No, sir. 0. And the attentions which you showed them? A. No, sir. Q. How was the drinking water in there? A. The water w r as very good. Q. Clean? A. Yes, sir. Q. Served in clean vessels? A. No, sir. They had a cup and we would go to the place and get water—a sink. Q. Mr. Syfan, did you ever see any stealing up there in your ward, depriving the patients of food intended for them and medicines by the keepers? A. Stealing? Q. Intended for the feeble patients? A. I could not say that I did. 0. You could not say that you did? A. I could not say positively. O. So far as you know, that part of it was all right ? It was served under your own supervision ? A. I don’t know. Q. Did you ever see any thieving going on anywhere on the premises? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where? A. I caught up with it while I was gate-keeper. Q. Who did that? A. I did, sir. Q. Who did the stealing? A. A negro cook. Q. A patient? A. No, sir. Q. An outsider? A. Yes, sir. 0. Was she a patient in the institution? A. The cook was a negro man. 122 Q. Was he a patient in the institution? A. No, sir, a hired man. 0. What would he do? A. Well, he was going towards the door first to me at the back, and I did not know the rules of the asylum, and I sent for Dr. Thompson, and he came down, and he said every bundle must be examined by the gateman. And when he came down I asked him must I carry out those rules, and he says, certainly, every package that goes out of here. 0. What doctor was that ? A. Dr. Thompson. Dr. Babcock was off. This was while he was in Europe, and I says, “Now, doctor, I will sure carry out the rules. I have been seeing these things going on, and I thought I would see you.” He says, “All right, I know that, notify them.” I notified all of them to quit that carrying, and I said, “If you carry anything out I will report you.” I says, “I will not allow you a chance to carry anything out,” and I says, “Nothing will pass through this gate,” and I stopped several and turned them back and gave them a chance, and I took it up and told them that I was going to stop it now, and there was a negro in the kitchen, a heavy carrier, and he had something under his coat all the way round, and I would see him go with that coat loaded, and I came up one night and called doctor at seven o’clock, and I told him to come down that I wanted to see him. And I went up to the mess hall and told him about it, and I says, “Do you want me to arrest him or not.” I says, “I can catch him.” He said “I was a sort of weakly man, and that I had better not tackle him by myself.” He says,“I will place a man with you.” So, doctor sent Air. Sineath, the supervisor, down there to help me catch this negro. He came one night and the negro did not come that night. Something happened he did not come. So, I told Mr. Sineath to come down the next evening, and he came down and I had him behind a bank behind my little office there. I said, “When you see him get close up you will know he is loaded. If he comes down you will be sure to watch for him. If I see him loaded I will lock the gate if I have time. Sineath saw that he was a big, heavy, strong negro, and he came down the road. I says, “He is loaded, you can look out for him.” I says, “When he leaves that track I can see whether he is loaded or not by his coat, and when you see him get close, you can come,” and he said he would come. So. when the negro left the track, and I saw he was loaded, I shut the gate, and the negro came on me. He knew what was up. He got on me. I had a broom stick. He came up to the gate and I had it closed, and the darkey got close. I says, “Give up those things in your coat there,” and I says, “Come 123 on Mr. Sineath.” He says, “I will give them up.” He handed me a bundle of rice. I laid the stick down and he put the bundle of rice in my hands, and that kept me from using my stick, and then he grabbed hold of me, and jerked me away from the gate, and held me until he threw me up against the gate, and he broke and ran. Q. Whose property was that that he was taking? Did the property belong to the institution? A. Yes, sir, carrying it from the institu¬ tion. He had been doing that all the time I was down there. Q. Anybody else besides that particular man? A. A sight of it? Q. A good deal? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you catch up with much of it? A. Yes, sir. Q. It was taken by the cooks out of the kichen? A.,No. When I went down there there was a heap of this. He helped me. He would advise me. I remember that. I would come for advice to him and Mr. Mitchell. There were crowds of negroes down there that would come to the gate and stay there, and I would run them off. Q. You mean negroes that had no connection with the institution, -? A. Coming there bringing eatables, I suppose, and such things. Several asked me couldn’t they come to the back gate, and I ran them away for a good while. I finally told them I would arrest them, and I got it down so fine that they did not bother me any more, and the doctor told me not to pass anybody unless they had a note. Q. Who told you not to 'pass anybody unless they brought a note, Dr. Thompson? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know anything of the stealing of articles from patients inside the institution? A. No, sir. Q. On the wards? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know anything of that ? A. No, sir. I heard lots of it, but I could not say anything about it myself. Q. You don’t know positively? A. I heard it said that it was done. Q. Did you ever see the rules of the institution? A. No, sir. Q. The nurses’ rules or cards? A. No, sir. Q. You never read them? A. No, sir. 0. Were they posted anywhere in the institution that you know of? A. No, sir. Q. You never worked out on the farm any, I notice? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you receive any pay for that? A. Yes, sir. I was off and on all the time on the farm, when I was not at the laundry or gate-keeper, or overhauling furniture or something like that. I2 4 Q. What is your estimate of Mr. Mitchell, the Supervisor, how did he treat you? A. Mighty nice. 0. How did he treat the others? A. Very well. Q. Kind and humane? A. Yes, sir, all that I saw. Q. Were any complaints made against him by any of the inmates, that you know of? A. No, sir. 0. He seemed to be the right man in the right place? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you see a good deal of him? A. Yes, sir, I had a good deal of business with him while I was at the gate. Q. At the gate? A. Yes, sir. 0. He seemed to be the right man in the right place ? A. Yes,sir. O. He is the general supervisor of all the employees? A. Some¬ times. Q. Do you know who employed and discharged those under him, Mr. Syfan? A. Yes, sir, I think he was the man. 0. You thought he had the power? A. I don’t know about that. I only knew about this - matter. He changed a man off my ward, Smith, about-once. 0. What did he do? A. I will tell you about that. Smith got mad at me because I reported him about beating-. and I could not get to see the doctor, and I went right straight on to Mr. Mitchell’s room, and went right in there and told him what I had said to Smith, how Smith had choked him about this business, and he said he would see the gentleman about it. The next thing I knew of it he had sent him over to the Taylor building. Q. Did you ever make any reports to Mr. Mitchell besides that one? A. Not that I know of. 0. Did I ask you about the scarcity of water in the heating depart¬ ment? A. Yes, sir, we always got plenty of cold water. Some¬ times when it was real cold we could not get enough warm water. Q. There was a scarcity of warm water? A. Yes, sir. O. Did you ever see any partiality shown by these doctors, Mr. Mitchell, Dr. Thompson or Dr. Babcock, to some patients over others? A. I could not say that. Q. All received substantially the same treatment at the hands of these gentlemen? A. Yes, sir. Q. I understand you have no complaint whatever about the treat¬ ment you received at the hands of Dr. Thompson? A. No, sir, not a bit. Q. Any of that which you received at the hands of Mr. Mitchell ? A. No, sir. 125 Q. Your chief objection was to the nurses and keepers? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you anything to lay at the door of Dr. Babcock, in the nature of treating you that you thought he ought not to have done? A. I don't think he did. I wrote him two letters. I got-to do it. Q. You did write two letters? A. Yes, sir. Q. That was the letter that Mr.-spoke about this morning? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the contents of those letters? What were you writ¬ ing about? A. I was trying to get something to do. I think that they were due that to me, if they would not give me a free discharge. It looked like every effort I made to try to get work that I was kept out of it. I went to work at the laundry. I went there because I was a badly afflicted man, and I was not able to do anything else, and I went to the steam laundry and worked like a man, and showed them that I was sufficiently able to make my living, and I went on the farm and I took the lead row there. Q. About these letters you say you wrote to Dr. Babcock, you say you wrote two? A. Yes, sir. Q. For employment? A. Yes, sir. Q. At the time you had no employment? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wasn’t the work you were doing while in this institution satis¬ factory? A. Yes, sir. Q. There never was any complaint ? A. No, sir. When I quit the laundry Clark came to me two or three times, and said, “-, I don’t know how I can get along without you.” Q. Who was he? A. The man at the head of the laundry. He came to me and said, “I am feeling bad today, will you not come and help me,” and I said, “Certainly,” and I would go out and wring after him and the washers. He would go out to the institution and leave me for hours at a time, and when he got back he would find everything just the same. Q. Who gave you the jobs that you did get? A. I was working on the farm. I don’t think Dr. Thompson would have let me go to the steam laundry, knowing the work that I was doing, and I think he was uneasy and afraid that I could not hold up at that. I was working on the farm, and Clark had great confidence in me. I had been on the ward with him, and he saw how I worked on the ward, and Mr. Clark came to the doctor, hearing that I was able to be out, and says, “Where is-,” and 126 I says, “Here I am.” He says, “Come here, boy, come and go to the laundry with me. If you don’t do anything but pull clothes out of the wringer, come on.” I went down there, and he says, “I am going to keep you.” He had not seen the doctor. When the doctor came in, I says, “Well, I have been to the laundry.” He says, “Do you think you can stand that work?” I says, “Yes, I can get along fine, I think.” Doctor says, “Don’t overdo yourself. You know your condition. You know how you are.” I went on down there. I think doctor went to Mr. Clark once or twice, and he told him I was getting along with the work as well as anybody. Q. About the letters, what reception did they meet with? You say you wrote to Dr. Babcock? A. Well, I had worked on the farm and given perfect satisfaction. I had given perfect satisfaction at the gate, they all said. And they said I had done very good at that back gate. I did better work than anybody they ever had at the back gate, for I certainly did my duty, and I was attentive to my work there. It was the same way on the farm. They could trust me, and what I did I did right. 0. What did you ask for in the letters? A. I asked for a paying salary. Q. For a salary? A. For something. Q. Did you state the amount you would like to receive? A. No, sir. Q. Were your letters answered? A. No, sir. I never heard a word from him. Q. Neither of them? A. No, sir. Q. Who did you give the letters to? A. Mr. Mitchell. Here is the only thing Mr. Mitchell said: I went in and I said, “Mr. Mitchell,” I says, “I want Dr. Babcock to get this letter.” He says, “All right,” and he came back the next day. He says, “Well,-, I sent that letter to Dr. Babcock.” That is what Mr. Mitchell says, and he says, “He is not going to do it, he is not going to pay any attention to it.” I says, “I want a situation,” and my intention was, but I didn't tell what my intention was, but my intention was if he did not give me a position, to go home. Q. Did Mr. Mitchell tell you he had delivered the letters? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he bring you any verbal reply? A. No, sir. Q. At no time? A. No, sir. Q. And you got no answer by letter? A. No, sir. 127 Q. How long was that before you left here ? A. I waited on him, I suppose—I don’t know. It was a good long time. Q. Did you get employment after that time? A. No, sir. Q. No employment after you wrote those letters? A. No, sir. Only I could get work on the farm whenever I wanted to. Q. No paying job? A. No, sir. Q. Were many connected with the institution getting any pay? A. Yes, sir. There was Gilbert. He was a patient. He got a good salary, and this man at the front gate. Q. Do you know what salaries they got? A. No, sir. I heard what they got, but I don’t know whether it is true or not. I never heard from them. Q. Was your objection to being here that you ought not to be kept here or ought to have employment? A. With employment? Q. You didn’t mind staying here if you had employment in the institution? A. I was in this fix. I could, feeling in the condition I was in, earn something to get my proper food, and I felt that if I could do that I could enjoy myself and make a little something to help my family a little, that I would try and be satisfied here. Q. Here? A. Yes, sir. I have been a great sufferer, and I was willing to submit myself to anything for my family, and I was going to try to stay if they thought it was best. Q. Did you ever make any other request to Dr. Babcock? A. I tried my level best to get to see him, but I never could get to see him. Q. Did you ever notify him that you wanted to see him? A. I tried to get several to go and carry me to him. Q. Who did you try to get ? A. I tried to get most of the watch¬ men. Q. The nurses? A. Mr. Mitchell—Dr. Thompson was off. I never did ask him. I asked Mr. Mitchell. Dr. Thompson was off, Dr. Babcock had just got back, and Dr. Thompson went on his vacation, and I was getting sort of worried over the thing. I wanted to get out of here or get something to do, and I tried to get Mr. Mitchell to do so, and he says, “That is not my place. It is all right for Dr. Thompson to carry you.’’ I tried to get several of them to carry me. Q. Do you know what part of the institution Dr. Babcock gave his personal attention to? A. No, sir. Q. Colored women, is it not? A. I suppose so. I don’t know any¬ thing about that. 128 Q. You did not want to see him professionally? You wanted to see him about employment? A. Yes, sir. I wanted to have a talk with him. Q. Is that the respect in which you think Dr. Babcock did not treat you right, in not giving you employment? A. Yes, sir. I thought he ought to give me my freedom or something to do. Q. And that is all you have? A. Nothing else in the world at all. Q. Did you hear any of the patients complaining against Dr. Babcock much while you were in here? A. You know there was talk against him, of course, because they could not get to see him and talk with him. Q. It wasn’t his part of the institution? He did not come in there except on extraordinary occasions? A. No, sir. Q. When he was called in for a conference by Dr. Thompson? A. I never saw him on the ward but once. Q. On the ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who did he come to see? A. He came to see me while I was sick, when Dr. Thompson was sick too. Q. Was that when you were first in here? A. That was the last time. Q. The last time? A. Yes, sir. 0. Did your brother have an interview with Dr. Babcock here about your going home, that you know of? A. Well, they would come and talk to Dr. Babcock and tell me or write me that Dr. Babcock said he didn’t think it would be well to take me out, some¬ thing of that sort. O. They would come here and then go back and write you that from home? A. Yes, sir. 0. Did they promise to take you out, your brothers? A. Never did. Q. Did any of your folks at home? A. No, sir. Q. Did your wife’s folks? A. No, sir. Q. Did your wife come to see you while you were in here? A. No, sir. Q. Your father-in-law? A. No, sir. 0. Anybody besides your brothers? A. No, sir. Q. And you wrote to them? A. Yes, sir, to my wife and to my brothers. Q. How many brothers have you? A. Six. Q. All live in Abbeville? A. No, sir. 129 Q. Any living near here, around Columbia? A. A half brother. Q. In the city? A. Yes, sir. Q. What does he do here? A. I think he railroads. Q. Railroading? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he come out to see you while you were in here? A. Yes, sir, I think so. Q. Was he interested in getting you out? A.' No, sir. Q. Did you and he discuss the subject of your getting out of here? A. I hate to say it about my brother, but my father was opposed to his marriage. Q. Your father was opposed to your brother’s marriage? A. Yes, sir. We have never had much to do with each other since. Q. That is the half brother that is here? A. Yes, sir; so I don’t know much about him, nor can’t say much. Q. He only came to see you one time? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison—Did you ever see any body lice on patients? A. Many a time. Q. How about head? A. Yes, sir; I have seen them too. I have taken them off of them. Q. Was it a pretty general thing that they had body lice through the wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. Mr. -, are you suffering from any troubles besides the trouble now after this operation has been performed, any other physical trouble? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is it? A. They say my lungs have been affected since I have been in here. Q. They say you have consumption? A. Yes, sir. 0. Where did you contract that? A. Here. Mr. Carey—While an inmate here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know how you came to contract that ? Do you think you got it from the other patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were there any patients on your ward that had tuberculosis? A. I don’t know. I could not tell exactly how many there were. Q. Did you ever sleep in the same room with any of them while here? A. No, sir. Q. Did you stay in the same room with them ? A. No, sir. I always had a room to myself. Q. Did you ever sleep with any person that had lung trouble in your life? A. No, sir. Q. Have you in mind any particular person that you could have caught that from ? A. Outside of them ? I was thrown with them 9—A. 130 all the time, drinking and where they would spit on the side of the wall, something like that. Q. Was there any weakness about your lungs before you came here? A. No, sir. Q. How long after you got out before you discovered this trouble? A. I was coughing when I left here. I had that before I left here. I leave that to Dr. Thompson. He will decide that. He treated me for that. Q. You don’t know of your own knowledge, of course, how your lungs became involved ? A. No, sir. I went to Dr. Hill after 1 got to my brother’s, and he told me that if I was going to be with the children there I wanted to be very careful, and I felt that my lungs were affected, that I did not want to stay in the house, that it would not do for me to be thrown with his children, and the little fellows thought so much of me. I could not get in sight of the house unless one would come to me, and I thought it was best for me to get out in an outhouse away from them, and my brother had me to go and see Dr. Hill and let him decide. I said that Dr. Thompson had given me instructions enough .to know that something was the matter with my lungs, and I went to Dr. Hill and asked him, and he said he thought they were affected, and I said, “I am glad you told me; it will make me more careful where I spit.” He told me that and one thing and another and I went home and told my brother, and he said he could not bear the idea of my staying out there, and just before I came down here I was fixing to get out in the fresh air. The Chairman—You spoke about whitewashing some of the rooms. Did that seem to benefit the rooms? A. Yes, sir, a great deal. Q. In what way? A. It kept them down. I made the whitewash, and after I made the whitewash— Q. What I want to find out is what you mean—it kept down the vermin? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why didn’t you whitewash more than one or two rooms? You didn’t have time to whitewash a good many? A. I don’t know. I was willing to help them. O. Could you whitewash all the rooms, or your room? A. I told Mr. Mitchell I would be glad to do so, to whitewash my room. 0. How long had those rooms been unwhitewashed? A. I could not tell you. I was here three years, and it had not been since I was here. Q. You say that while Mr. Wilson was on your ward things went pretty well? A. Yes, sir. Q. How about after he went off? A. Tough, and I had a tough time too, let me tell you. Q. Who went on the ward after he went off? A. Durham Brown, There were one or two changes made, several times. One would come a month, just kept changing them around. 0. What was the difference in their management and that of Mr. Wilson? A. A big difference, rough to the patients, caused me more trouble getting them to bed and one thing and another, young men. You know how young men are. Q. The patients were very much easier for you to manage when you had a kind nurse? A. Yes, sir; I could get along with them and handle them. I never hurt them myself, and I don't think Mr. Wilson ever did. I had a nice time when he was there. Q. Did you ever report Durham Brown and Smith for eating eggs and other delicacies intended for patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you remember the incident? A. Yes, sir. I will tell you about that. The eggs would come in and they would keep eating them. They would take them from the poor fellows. I tried to get them to stop it, and then to raise no disturbance I would take my egg and put it on the other one’s plate. They would not pay any attention to me. They would eat the bigger portion of the eggs and the patients would have to go without them; so I reported that. Q. What was the result of your reporting that? A. There was something said to them about it. I don’t know what. Q. Well, go on. Did the nurses stop? A. Then they commenced to illtreating me. I would get ill treatment every time I would report. Q. You spoke of bathing some patients in the same water. Were any of them diseased? A. Yes, sir. Q. What disease did they have? A. Itch. They would come in patches on each side. I painted them every night. They had some varnish that I painted it with. They said it would kill it. Q. You spoke of the conditions on your ward while Mr. Wilson was there as being pretty good? A. Yes, sir. Q. At that time did you see the conditions on the other wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. Which were the good wards and which the poor wards, as far as cleanliness and the general condition they were kept in were 132 concerned? A. The fourth and seventh were probably the worst wards. They were just simply awful. You would have to hold your nose to go through sometimes. Q. Was that due largely to the plumbing or to not keeping the patients clean ? A. They did not keep the patients clean and throw¬ ing stuff in the rooms and letting it stay in there. Q. What were the conditions in the other wards? A. Which ones ? 0. You have spoken of the fourth and seventh, you were on the fifth ? A. The first and second—that was a parlor to this. That was the best ward in the institution, the second ward, then the sixth was next. That was a very good ward. They were all better wards than mine. Q. Would the patients on the white male wards have occupation of some kind or other, nearly all of them? A. Yes, sir. The patients would do all the work, you know, sir. Q. What was their occupation? A. Scouring, washing the patients, scouring out the spittoons, everything that was needed on the ward. Q. I was speaking of work like farm work, laundry work, and that kind of thing? A. They did not do anything like that, the patients. They had hired men for that. Q. Was the heat satisfactory in the winter time? A. Sometimes it was very good and then again it was cold at times. Q. How was it in the dining rooms ? A. Sometimes it was pretty cold. Q. That was only occasionally ? A. Occasionally, yes, sir. Q. Were some of the nurses illiterate, have a hard time reading? A. Yes, sir; a great deal, some of them. 0. Did you say all the nurses could read? A. No, sir. Some of them could not. I would have to do so for some of them. 0. Would you have to help them any time? A. Sometimes they could not make it out and I would make it out for them. 0. What? A. Directions on the bottles. Q. The labels on the bottles ? A. They could not read them. Q. Could they read the prescriptions that the doctor left for them—the prescriptions? A. I don’t know, sir. Q. Did you ever read the prescriptions for them? A. Yes. sir. 0. What nurses were those? A. Kelly was one. 0. What others? A. I believe John Abbot. He was not a regu¬ lar. I hate to give his name. He was a good fellow, but at the 133 same time he could not do it. He worked in the mess hall, but they would put him on when they would get in a tight place, when they could not get anybody on the wards. And Durham Brown. He has asked me several times to read things on the ward for him. Q. Was it the general idea among the patients that the Super- perintendent and the Regents were willing to let them get out of here? A. Yes, sir. I could not get out though. Q. Wasn't it the idea, or the rule here, after you came, that all your complaints to the Superintendent and the Regents would have to come through some of the officers? A. Yes, sir. That was the way. Q. All the complaints that you wanted the Regents and the Super¬ intendent to consider would have to go through to doctor or Mr. Mitchell? A. Yes, sir. Q. Mr. Mitchell or Dr. Thompson? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison—Where would they wash the pots that they kept in the patients’ rooms ? A. In the sink. Q. Was that done on all the wards in the same way? Would they ever wash them anywhere else? A. No, sir, only in the sinks. Q. That is the proper place ? A. Yes, sir. The Chairman—Were they ever put out in the sun? A. The spittoons ? Q. Yes. A. No, sir. Mr. Carey—Do you think of anything you would like to state of your own accord that you have not stated? A. Well, I don't know, sir. Q. In explanation of any part of your testimony, or any matter we may have overlooked. If you do you can state it. The testimony has been three hours long. I have been trying to bring out all that I thought you knew? A. I hope and always tried not to misrepre¬ sent anything, and if there is anything that you all doubt, I want you all to bring up the men, so that I can call in men that know these are facts. I would hate to mislead you in anything. I always try to be careful never to mislead in anything or misrepresent any¬ thing. Now, this man, Mr. Wilson, has been on the wards with me is the reason I asked for him to come. I met him on the street and I saw him on the corner, and if there is anything you want to ask I would like for him to state it. Q. We will examine him. 134 Mr. Henry C. Wilson, was thereupon duly sworn, and testified as follows: Mr. Carey—Mr. Wilson, where do you live? A. I live here in town. Q. In Columbia? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you ever employed in this institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. What position did you hold? A. I was on the ward. Q. Keeper on one of the wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. Which ward were you on ? A. When I first came here I was put on the first ward. Q. When was that? A. Three years ago. Q. How long? A. The fourth of June will be three years ago. Q. When did you cease to be an employee of the institution? A. The fourth day of April, I believe it was. Q. Last April? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were not discharged? A. No, sir, I did not quit. I was discharged. Q. Did you have any difficulty or any misunderstanding, or unpleasantness with any officer of the institution about the time you quit? A. Well, yes, sir. They had commenced to clean up the wards, giving out sandpaper, sandpapering the wards. I did not do that. I gave it out to some of the patients on the ward, and they sandpapered some. I took a broom and some Gold Dust and a brush, and went all over the rooms and washed myself, washed the ward as good as I could. Q. Did Mr. Mitchell instruct you to do that work yourself and you gave it to the patients? A. No, sir, not particularly. Q. Did you decline to do the work, any part of it? A. When they came to the whitewashing, I did. That was on Monday morn¬ ing, I believe. It was on the third or fourth, I came back from break¬ fast, and I mopped out the sitting room with the help of some of the patients, and I went from there. I had gotten some liquid to kill those chinches, and I went into the big room, and I had put it over about fourteen beds. I lacked about two, and they had been over some of the other wards, and Mr. Kelley came up there and told me that Dr. Thompson sent word for me and my partner to go and whitewash the walls, and I told him I was not going to do it. Q. That you were not going to do it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was there any hard feeling connected with your refusal, Mr. Wilson ? A. In what direction ? Q. Between you and any of the authorities of the institution 135 about this matter? A. No, sir, not a bit. I just did not think it was my duty to do it. Q. Did Mr. Mitchell tell you you would have to leave or do that work? A. No, sir. Q. Did any one else tell you so? A. After I got my clothes on I just stopped right there, and the patienfs that were helping me told me not to quit. They said we will do your work if you will stay. Q. Who were with you? A. Several patients. Q. Did anybody in connection with the institution speak to you about it? A. I went from there to my room and came down and met Dr. Thompson, and I told Dr. Thompson that I did not feel like I was able to do the whitewashing, and he said we need men that are able to do the work on the ward. Q. What did the doctor say? A. That was about all he said. Q. What was it the doctor said, that because you told him you could not do the whitewashing? A. I did that. I do not know what caused me to do that. I was at work is what caused me to say that. I just said it merely through a joke to Kelley. I knew he was not going to tell Dr. Thompson at all. Q. When you told the doctor you were not going to do it, did you say that was a joke? A. I did not tell the doctor I was not going to do it. I told him I did not feel it was my duty. I did not feel like it was my duty. Q. What did the doctor say? A. He said, as well as I can recall, he says, “We need men that will do the work that we want them to do,” and I did not think it my duty to go to whitewashing. That is the reason I told him I was going to quit, and I told him I was going to give my reason to Dr. Babcock. Q. Did you consider that a discharge? A. No, sir. I did not. No, sir. Dr. Babcock told me to go back to see Dr. Thompson. Q. You went to see Dr. Babcock? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did you tell him ? A. I told him I had come to hand in my resignation. Q. To hand in your resignation ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you tell him your reason? A. I do not recollect exactly what I told him. I recollect him telling me that I had better go back and talk it over with Dr. Thompson, and I told him I did not care to do it. Q. Did the doctor accept your resignation? A. Yes, sir. He told me—I forget what he said. He talked it over with me. He 136 told me to go ahead if it was my wishes. I asked if I could get my money and he said certainly. Q. Those are the circumstances connected with your leaving? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you consider yourself ordered to do that work? A. Yes, sir. I certainly did. * Q. And did you consider your conduct a refusal to do it? A. Yes, sir. I considered my quitting. That is the reason I went t.o Dr. Thompson. Q. Did you consider then that you were resigning because you were ordered to do work you were not willing to do, and that that was the occasion for your leaving the institution? A. Yes, sir. That was about it. Q. What ward did you have supervision of while you were in here? Were you in the ward where Mr. - was? A. I was about six months ago, I think, as well as I can recollect. I do not recollect exactly what time it was. I was on the ninth ward at first, not the ninth but the tenth. Q. I want to ask you about the one he was on, the first? A. Yes, sir. I was on the first with Mr.-about a year, I think. Q. About one year? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you see any of these things he testified to? These diffi¬ culties ? A. Which do you mean ? Q. With any of these patients and nurses, and abusing them. Did you see any of those things? A. I think that was done on the first ward after I left. Q. Did you ever call in anybody there to help you manage the patients there in the presence of Mr.-? A. Yes, sir. I don’t know who was there. Q. Who was the patient? A. I was on the veranda at the back door on the first ward, and I heard a fuss about the middle of that ward, and I looked around, and I saw something looked like some one fighting. Q. Beyond you? A. Yes, sir, and I ran up there, and I found Mr. Stewart, and I forget the name of the patient. I can not call his name now. 0. Bailey? A. No, sir. It was -, a man from the fourth ward, I think. 0. What did he do to him? A. He was making him go back, but Charlie, that was Charlie Stewart, and I ran up and caught him by the arm. I spoke to him and says, “You must not fight here,” i37 and he came up and caught hold of me by the other arm, and I told him we would carry him on to the ward, and he commenced knock¬ ing him, and I told him he must not do that. I did tell him I would turn loose if he did not quit hitting him, or something like that. Q. What was he knocking him about? A. I could not tell you. Q. They were in a fight when your attention was first called to it? A. Yes, sir. Q. You did not see the beginning? A. No, sir. I did not see anything until I heard this noise like they were fighting. Q. Who called to you? A. Mr. Stewart. Q. What did he want with you ? A. He wanted me to assist him. Q. To do what? A. Keep that man off him. I do not know what else. Q. Was the man on him ? A. He was going on him. Q. Was he mad at Stewart? A. Yes, sir, I think he was. Q. Was he approaching him in a threatening manner? A. Yes, sir. I think he was. He was making to get on him, I think. Q. He was making to get on Stewart? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was he a large man? A. Not very. Q. Young or old man? A. Charlie was a young man. 0. Appeared to be a stout man? A. Yes, sir, pretty stout. He was a stouter man than Mr. Stewart. Q. Than Stewart? A. Yes, sir, I think so. Q. What was the trouble between him and Stewart about? A. I could not tell you. I heard some one say it was some difficulty between them on the wards somewhere. Q. Did Stewart appear to be mad? A. Well, he did after he got hold of him. He knocked him once I know of. I do not know whether he hit him more than once or not Q. What did he hit him with ? A. With his fist. Q. What was the patient doing when he struck him? A. I had hold of one arm. but he struck him. Q. Was he making any effort to strike Stewart? A. No, sir. Q. You had hold of the patient with one hand? A. I had one and he the other. He took hold after I caught him. Q. Did he strike him on the head ? A. He struck him on the back of the neck or on the shoulder somewhere. Q. Did he appear to be angry when he struck him? A. Yes, sir. Q. 'Did he hit him more than one lick ? A. I could not tell you. I do not know whether he hit him more than once or not. I told him he must stop hitting him at once. 138 Q. How did the matter terminate? Did the patient submit to him? A. They carried him on. I forget whether they put straps on him or carried him to his room. I think, though, we locked him up. Q. Did you go on with Mr. Stewart? A. Yes, sir. I went on and carried him. Q. You only recall one lick or stroke? A. I do not think he struck him more than once. Q. Were you one of the keepers at that time? A. Yes, sir. I was on the first ward, I believe, at that time. Q. Did you report that matter to anyone? A. No, sir. Q. Why did you not do it? A. Well, that was something I never did do, to report anything. I did not think it was worth while to report it. I just know he hated to do it. Q. He disliked to do it? A. Yes, sir. £). You never mentioned it to Dr. Thompson? A. No, sir, never did mention it. Q. Did you ever see any other cases of assault upon a patient by a keeper? A. I declare I paid very little attention to the other keepers. I think I have seen some, but I cannot recollect. I cannot state. Q. You could not state who or when? A. No, sir. Q. That is the only instance you can recollect? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you recollect any instance of abuse or teasing or worry¬ ing of the patients by the keepers? A. Well, yes, sir. Q. Who did that ? A. I have seen where they have been abused. I do not know that I could say exactly who did it. Q. What character of abuse did you see? A. I saw one that looked like he had been cut with a strap. That is what he said. Q. Cut with a strap? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know his name? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who? A. -. Q. You saw where he looked like he had been cut with a strap? A. Yes, sir. Q. How did he claim the injury occurred? A. He said a nurse did it. Q. Did he say who the nurse was? A. Mr. Cantey, I think. 0. Cantey? A. I think that was his name. Q. Pretty severe? A. I saw two or three stripes on his leg. Q. Did he complain of its hurting him? A. Yes, sir. He com¬ plained of it. 139 Q. Did you report that to anyone? A. I do not believe I did. I think he had it reported. It seems to me like he told me he had shown it to Dr. Thompson himself. Q. You made no report of it? A. No, sir. Q. Do you recollect any other instance while you were in there? A. Well, no, sir. Q. Can you recall any instance of cursing, or worrying, or teasing patients by those keepers ? A. I have known this same patient to be teased a right smart. He is powerful mouthy. Q. Mouthy? A. Yes, sir. Mighty easy to tease. Q. Who teased him? A. Well, pretty well all over the ward. Very well every patient. Q. Patients and nurses? A. Patients and nurses, yes, sir. Q. What was the disposition of that patient, very touchy? A. Yes, sir, powerful mouthy, but there was not any harm in him in the world. Q. A big talker? A. Yes, sir. Q. Teased along that line? A. Yes, sir. Just teased him merely to hear him talk, and get him to speaking. Q. Did he seem to enjoy it himself? A. I do not know whether he did or not. His actions did not show like he enjoyed it at times. Q. Did he get mad? A. O, yes, sir, seemed to get mad. If you go after him he would make a powerful fuss and then go on. He never went in to fight any person though. Q. Just disposed to have a little fun, was he? A. Well, I do not know, sir. It must have been to the ones teasing him. 0. Did you participate in any of that teasing? A. Mighty little. Q. You joined in some, did you? A. I do not know. I have said something to him. He seemed to think right smart of me. He would be mighty good and kind for a while, and I could just say a word that would go against him a little, and he would be as bad on me as any person. Q. Was that teasing in a spirit of having fun or was it done for the purpose of worrying him, and making him mad, Mr. Wilson? A. I think it was done because they loved to hear him. 0. They loved to hear him talk? A. Yes, sir, just to see what he would do. Q. How insane was he? A. Well, that was about all the insanity I saw about him, just mouthy. Q. Did you ever mix up with any of the patients in any fights 140 or quarrels while you were in there? A. Mix up with any of the patients in any quarrels? Q. Yes. A. I have had to go about them when they got into difficulties amongst themselves. Q. Would they do much of that? A. Yes, sir. I have been in several. 0. How were they as to control ? Were they pretty hard or easy to control by the nurses? A. Pretty easy. I have had one or two to turn on me, but it is mighty seldom that they ever do. Q. Seldom that you could not control them? A. Yes, sir. Q. These nurses generally, while you were in here, how did they treat them? A. The nurses? Q. Yes, were they kind to them? A. Well, yes, sir. In some cases you know they had to be pretty rough. Sometimes you had to treat one pretty rough to let him know that you could boss him, something like that. Q. You did know of cases that you thought the nurses were not justifiable? A. Well, I have seen some cases that I did not think they were, but I could not state exactly what they were now. 0. Were there ever any complaints of your treatment of them by the patients, or did you get along? A. Not that I know of. I always got along pretty well. I do not know of any one that has notified against me. If they did I do not know it. Q. It is pretty responsible, especially to be over those wards? A. Yes, sir, it is so. Q. There are all sorts of patients in there, some noisy? A. Yes, sir; there is an old fellow by the name of-on the ninth ward. When he is all right he is just as nice a man as could be, but when he got off he was right the other way, hard to manage. Q. Did you try to do your duty towards them? A. Yes, sir, as near as I could. O. Did you get along pretty well ? A. I got along pretty well on every ward I have been on. I have been on the second, the tenth, the ninth, and on the first a long time. Q. Were they disposed to fuss much among themselves, the patients? A. Not very much. Sometimes they would get into a fuss. I have had to put straps on some of them, and lock some of them up. Q. What would that be for—fussing? A. Yes, sir. 0. Would they do better after that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Punishment seemed to do good? A. Yes, sir; lock one up and he does not seem to like it at all. He will agree to do right if you will let him out. I have locked them up in a dark room when they get to fighting there. Q. How did you get along with Mr. Mitchell? A. Well, sir; very well. Q. He seemed to discharge his duties? A. I think so, sir. Q. How did you get along with Dr. Thompson ? A. I do not know that I ever had anything against Dr. Thompson or him against me. If he has, I do' not know it. Q. Was there anybody else in your department that you did not get along with ? A. I did think once may be, I do not know whether it was Dr. Thompson or Mr. Mitchell, they did me wrong in send¬ ing me from the first ward to the fourth. I think they did me wrong then. Q. Transferred you, you mean? A. I do not know what they did it for. Q. Dr. Thompson was liked by his associates on the wards, nurses and patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. He inspected closely when he came through? A. Yes, sir, I think he did all that a man could expect him to do. He was mighty nice. Q. Careful in giving medicines and prescribing for the patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. How about foods for those feeble patients, was that pretty good? A. Feeble patients? Q. Yes. A. Well, do you mean sick? 0. I mean sick. Those who needed special attention, did they get it? A. It was always put on sick duty carriers, and on the carriers was put what they got. Q. Who looked after that, Dr. Thompson? A. He would give orders, and the man on the ward would get it. Q. Did you carry out the instructions which you gentlemen received from him in looking after that ? A. I tried to do it, sir. Q. How about the cleanliness on your ward? A. Well, there were some patients on the ward that were not very cleanly. Some¬ times they would be in bad shape, and sometimes they would not. Q. You would make it a rule to try to keep them in shape? A. I kept them the best I could. Q. Did you watch over them and care for them like you would if it were you while they were sick? A. Yes, sir, I think I did the best I knew how. 142 Q. The wards themselves where you were, did you keep them clean or not ? A. The wards that I was on ? Q. Yes. A. Well, yes, sir. I kept them just as clean as I could. There were some pretty filthy patients, you know, and it was a crowded ward, and we kept it in pretty good fix. 0. Considering the class of patients that were in there, do you think those wards were kept as clean as could reasonably be expected? A. No, sir, they could have been kept in a better fix. 0. Why did not you keep them in a better fix? What was the reason they were not ? A. I suppose it was the help. 0. The help was not sufficient ? A. No, sir; and very often you had the beds to scour, and you would have to do the scouring every day to keep them in a better fix. 0. Scour the floors? A. Yes, sir. Q. What about the walls? A. The walls could have been white¬ washed, and I think they would have been in better shape. Q. Was it done? A. Not until right here lately. Q. How long has it been since it was whitewashed? A. I do not know, sir. Q. Have you been through there lately? A. No, sir, not since I left. I have not been back at all. Q. Were not most of the walls cleaned up before you left? A. They had whitewashed the second and sixth and just commenced on the ninth to whitewash. An old colored man did the whitewash¬ ing generally. Q. What was the condition of the walls before they were white¬ washed there? A. Pretty bad condition. Q. What was the reason? A. Seemed to be dirty, patients rub¬ bing against them and spitting too, color-marked right smart. Q. It is a pretty hard job to keep the walls clean? A. Well, no, sir. I do not think so. Q. When had they been whitewashed before? A. I could not tell you. Q. You do not know? A. Not since I have been here, not until this last whitewashing, not that I know of. Q. Is that the only time you know of? A. Yes, sir. Q. That has been done this year? A. This year, yes, sir. Q. Were you down in the kitchen? A. No, sir; I hardly ever went into the kitchen. Q. How about the dairy? A. No, sir. 143 Q. About the big mess hall where the meals were served? A. Yes, sir, in the mess hall, pretty well, very well. Q. How were you impressed with the meals served? A. They got plenty. Q. How about the variety? A. I do not know hardly what to say about that. Q. The preparation of it, do you think it was prepared very well? A. No, sir; I do not think it was prepared as well as it could have been. Q. What was the reason of the bad preparation? A. The hominy very often came in with lumps in it, and I think it was rawer than it ought to have been sometimes. The greens, such as cabbage and turnips, came cooked pretty well, cooked most too much. Q. The rice? A. Hardly had any rice, only on one table. The farm hands table generally had the rice. Q. Was it an inferior grade of rice? A. I could not tell. It looked mighty poor at times. Sometimes it looked all right. Q. How was the coffee and milk? A. The coffee, I do not know, sir, much about it. I drank some we had ourselves. It was not very strong. Q. Was that cooked in the kitchen? A. I suppose cooked at the same place. Q. Any objections to the milk? A. Yes, sir; you could see some settlings in the bottom of it. Q. In the bottom of the cup you drank out of? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did the patients complain of the milk? A. I never heard any complaint, no, sir. Q. Did you hear any complaint of any of the other food ? A. Yes, sir; I heard them, while eating, say it was not fitten to eat or something like that. Said they could not eat it. Q. Did they eat pretty heartily? A. Most of them would. Q. Most of them? A. Yes, sir. Q. You have nothing to do with operation of the farm? A. No, sir. Q. Nor the dairy? A. No, sir. Q. Nor the kitchen? A. No. Q. Did you know who the cooks were? A. No, sir. I knew the man that attended to it, but I didn't know the cooks. Q. Do you know whether or not they were patients? A. Well, from what I could hear and see, I knew that some patients were out there, but then there were other hired cooks in there. 144 Q. Did you hear what this witness said about the bugs, lice and things? What efforts did you make to stamp that out in your ward? A. We just had to use the liquid. We had to go over and put it on the beds and bedsteads. Very often we would put it all over the walls. Q. Was it impossible to stamp them out? A. It looked so, yes, sir. Q. What was the effect of these efforts to exterminate them in the rooms? A. I have gone over it and then gone back in a day or two, and there were* as many as when I went over it. Q. They multiplied rapidly? A. Yes, sir. Q. Would they be on the mattresses or the bedsteads? A. On the mattresses and bedsteads too. Q. Did you all try to prevent that condition of affairs in there? A. Yes, sir. Q. As much as you knew how? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you report it as impossible to stamp them out? A. It did look like it. They got into holes in the walls. They got all in the walls, and around the facing of the windows and window sills. Q. It got to a pass where they could not be got out by the use of the liquid? A. It looked so. I went over it with a spray last year. I got a spray and went all over it. but it looked like we could not clear them out. 0. Did you ever see any body lice in there? A. No, sir. I do not know that I have, only on the heads of some of the patients. They are very bad on some patients, when they come in. Q. When they first come in? A. We clip their hair and find them on their heads, on the bodies sometimes, too. We clipped their hair, and stripped and bathed them, and put clean clothes on them when they first come in. O. Was it one of your duties to bathe the patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. What about bathing them? Did you do it regularly? A. Yes, sir. Q. How often ? A. Generally bathed them every week. 0. Did you ever bathe more than one in the same water? A. I could not tell you for certain whether I have or not; because up on the ward I would generally attend to the bathing myself, and I would let on the water and many times there would be three or four stripped and ready to get in, maybe two at once. Q. Would you let two in at once? A. Yes, sir; I have seen two, and maybe one would get out. i45 0. Maybe one would get out ? A. Maybe I would not be in there right at the time. I would not say but that two were bathed in the same water. Q. Would you allow it done when you could prevent it? A. No, sir. *Q. Did you ever bathe one and put another into the same water? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know of any keepers that did? A. No, sir. Q. Any scarcity of water ? A. I never did bathe up there. Q. Was there any scarcity of water? A. No, sir. I think we had plenty of water always. Q. Both warm and cold water? A. Yes, sir. No, sir, not warm water. I have explained to Mr. Mitchell, and he told me not to let them bathe in cold water, not to bathe them at all, if we could not get warm water for them. Q. Would you have allowed them to bathe the different patients in the same water? A. If I had been there I would have stopped it. Q. If it was done on your ward it was done against your wishes? A. Yes, sir. Q. And under the circumstances you could not stop it? A. I have bathed many a one of them, just washed them myself. Q. Did that occur much on the ward? A. Often I would have to go in there and make them get back, all going into it. Q. All in the same water? A. Yes, sir. Q. Certainly you were against that? A. Yes, sir. 0. Do you know of any of the other keepers doing it? A. No, sir. I do not, because I was always on the same floor, and all bathing at the same time. Q. Did you have a set of rules to go by? A. No, sir. I do not recollect ever seeing any rules. Q. You never saw any rules? A. Only about the water and the electric lights. There was a paper stuck up about that. Q. How did you know what your duties were? A. I just felt all the time I was to do what I was told on the first ward. Q. Who told you ? Who instructed you ? A. I forget who. He was on the first floor. Q. Did Dr. Thompson give you any instructions as to what you were to expect? A. Never, that I know of. Q. Who was the man on the first ward who did that? A. I think, as well as I can remember, it was Mr. Bookman. 10—A. 146 Q. Was he the man who was superintending? Was he at the head of it? A. Yes, sir, he was running that ward, Q. He ran that ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you got your instructions then from him? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the general feeling of the patients towards Dr. Thompson? A. Well, they seemed to think right smart of Dt - . Thompson, seemed to like him all right. I have heard several cursing him and abusing him, but I did not think they had any reason for it. Q. You saw no occasion for it? A. No, sir. Q. Did you hear any of them in their right mind doing that? A. I do not think so. I do not think that they would have done it if they had been in their right mind. Q. How did you regard Dr. Thompson as a public physician? You were under him? A. I always took him to be a mighty nice man, always treated me very nicely. Q. His heart seemed to be in his work? A. Yes, sir. Q. Careful with them ? A. I have spoken many a time about him having the patience he has had with the people on the ward follow¬ ing him up and abusing him, and he would never say anything but yes, yes, or something like that. Q. Was there ever any complaint against you by the patients while you were a nurse over them? A. If there was, I do not know it. Q. You do not know of any? A. No, sir. Q. I believe you were in there about three years ? A. Lacking two months. Q. So, that little difficulty that you referred to was the only unpleasantness you ever had with any of the authorities? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that was a slight difficulty in your estimation ? A. Well, I have had with Mr. Mitchell. He has talked, I think, a little abruptly to me, when I thought he should not have done it. Q. How did you think he had mistreated you? A. I have for¬ given him for that. He agreed that he did not think that I did not think that I was in the right about it. Q. About what? A. He wanted me to go off at night. There was some change in his wards some way, and there was a misunder¬ standing. He had told Mr. Tidwell to tell me to go off that night, and he wanted me to stay on next night. That was my night on, one night on and one night off, and we went on to supper and Tid- 147 well never said anything to me about it until I had eaten and every¬ thing was over with, and I was sitting on the veranda of the first ward with the patients, and he came to the door and asked me if Mr. Mitchell had not told me to go off duty, and I told him no, and then I asked him did he tell you to tell me, and he says no. I says, “Well, I will not go off, then.” Q. How did Mr. Mitchell treat the patients? A. Very nicely, I think. Q. He would go through the wards pretty often? A. Well, tolerably. Q. Were you all directly under him, receiving instructions from him ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was he thought pretty well of by the nurses and patients in there? A. Yes, sir. Q. And patients too? A. I think so, yes, sir. Q. How long has he been here ? A. I could not tell you. Q. A number of years? A. Yes, sir; from what I understand, he has. Q. Did you see much of the Board of Regents while you were in here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever see them coming through in the wards, inspecting the wards? A. I suppose I have, but I could not recall it to my recollection. Q. Did you see much of Dr. Babcock? A. No, sir; very little of Dr. Babcock. Q. Have you anything against the doctor in the way of treatment? A. No, sir, not a thing in the world. Q. Nothing? A. No, sir. Q. Mr. Wilson, about keeping patients in here, what is your judgment about patients being kept in here who ought to be released ? Can you tell us anything of that ? A. I have known of some, yes. Q. Were there a few or a good many of them? A. There are not many. I do not think there are so powerful many the time I have been here. Q. Can you give us the names of any you thought ought to be out? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who are they? A. Well, there was -. I think he has got as good sense as he ever had, seems like he has. He has been that way for a year. O. Is he in here now? A. Yes, sir. 148 0. You think he ought to be let out? A. It seems to me like he is all right. Q. Is there another name you can mention? What do you think of Mr.-case? A. Air.-I had just about concluded that he had just about as good sense as I had. I did not see any difference between us. 0. Anybody else? A. Well, one or two more; Mr. -, I think. Q. You think he ought to be let out? A. I think he has got his good mind all right. You can talk with a patient and think they seem all right at times, and then at times you think they are not all right. 0. Do not they, as a rule, want to get out? A. Yes, sir, most of them. Q. Do not they regard it as an outrage that they do not get out? A. A heap of them do. I have known them to walk after the doctor there and curse him. 0. Because he would not let them out? A. Yes, sir. Q. A good many of them, I suppose, would seem all right until you touch the weak point with them? A. Yes, sir. Q. And then they get all upset? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Harden—You spoke of the condition of the wards being very filthy, some of them. Is it the duty of the keepers to see that they are kept clean ? A. I suppose so. I do not know that I spoke of their being very filthy. Q. Some of them being filthy, and I just wanted to ask this question: Is it not due largely to the patients that some are more cleanly than others? A. Yes, sir. O. And it is much easier to keep the rooms of some of the patients clean than others? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is due, I suppose, largely to the condition or habit of cleanliness on the part of the patients themselves? A. I have had to clean out some of the rooms in ward one twice or three times a day. O. And others once a day? A. Yes, sir. 0. And that would be largely due to the condition of the patients ? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Carey—Was the conduct of Mr. Syfan on the ward such as he has described to us about what he did and things of that kind ? You heard his testimony? A. Yes, sir. 0. Was it satisfactory ? A. Yes, sir. 149 Q. Was he a help to the keepers? A. Yes, sir, he was. Q. Was he kind to the patients? A. He was. He was mighty good and kind. He was really nearly all the help I had on the first ward in that respect. The Chairman—You had no nurse? A. Sometimes I did and sometimes I did not. Q. How many patients did you have? A. I think there was about thirty, thirty odd. Mr. Carey—Have you any feeling in this matter against anybody connected with the institution? A. No, sir. Q. How did you come to appear as a witness in the case? A. I do not know, sir. Q. Mr. - asked you to come in? A. Mr. -told me that a gentleman there told me to come down here. Q. Do you think of anything you want to state of your own accord connected with your services here? A. No, sir. Q. What is your idea of the general character and fitness of the nurses that were in here while you were in here, Mr. Wilson? A. I would rather not say about that. 0. We would like to have the benefit of your judgment because you are one of them? A. Some of them, I think, that were here were all right, some that I did not. I would not like to call their names. Q. Without calling their names, what was the objection to those you did not think were all right? Were they not kind enough to the patients? A. In some respects they were. Some I have known to be discharged for drinking in here. Q. How much were you paid ? A. How much paid ? Q. What were your wages? A. $ 31 . 50 . Q. Was that the usual pay of keepers? A. I started in at $ 25 . 00 , and it was not long before I was raised a dollar and a half and that made it $ 26 . 50 , and the next year $ 29 . 00 . Q. Was that about the average pay? A. And the third year $ 31 . 50 . Q. Was that about the average pay? A. Yes, sir, as far as I know. Q. Does that system of promotion seem to obtain in the institution amongst you all ? A. How do you mean ? 0 . If there is a vacancy, does a man drop in according to rank and service? A. You mean when they first come in? O. Yes. For instance when you went out, was there another man, ranking man, on account of previous service to take your place, or would they bring in a green man? A. They generally had to get a green man. Q. They would get such as they could get? A. Yes, sir. Q. A good many did not like the work ? A. I do not know. Q. Did you like it pretty well? A. I can not say that I liked it. I always have had it to do. Mr. -, recalled, testified : The Chairman—The question was asked Mr. Wilson how he hap¬ pened to testify. I wish you would just state the circumstances under which he was called? A. Well, I wanted to be careful. I did not want, if there was anything that they denied while I was on the ward, I wanted him here so that I could call him. Q. You asked me if he would be permitted to go on the stand and testify? A. Yes, sir. Q. And I told you he would be permitted to go? A. Yes, sir. The Commission thereupon went into executive session and passed a resolution directing that Drs. Saunders and Thompson and Mr. Mitchell be notified that they would be examined tomorrow. The Commission thereupon adjourned. Columbia, S. C., May 6, 1909. Pursuant to adjournment, the Commission met this day at the State Hospital for the Insane, at ten o'clock in the forenoon. Present—The Chairman and the members of the Commission. Dr. J. L. Thompson was thereupon called, and being duly sworn, testified as follows: Mr. Harrison—Your name is J. L. Thompson? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your age? A. 55. Q. What has been the term of your services in this institution? A. Something over twenty-eight years. 0 . I would like for you to tell the Committee, if you please, the general organization of the Hospital, that is, beginning with the Superintendent, assistant physicians, treasurer, biologist, supervis¬ ors, trained nurses, attendants. If you can, just make a comprehen¬ sive statement that Will cover that ground? A. It will be a little hard to do that. You just want me to mention the names? Q. The names and duties to a certain extent, as a part of his business? A. The Superintendent is first, Dr. J. W. Babcock. His duties are supposed to be that of the executive officer of the institu¬ tion. Q. Under him are directly—under him I suppose you would take the assistant physicians? A. Myself, Dr. J. L. Thompson, Dr. Saunders and Dr. Griffen. Q. Three. Dr. Thompson, your duties are what? A. First assistant physician, in charge of the white male department. Q. Dr. Saunders? A. Second assistant in charge of the females, white females. Q. Dr. Griffen ? A. I suppose you would say he is third assistant in charge of the colored males. Q. Your biologist, who is the biologist? A. Dr. Griffen was supposed to be biologist. He was in charge of that department. Q. That, in other words, is the place to which he was elected by the Board of Regents? A. Yes, sir; that, in addition to being in charge of the colored male department. Q. Now, who are the supervisors? A. Mr. J. M. Mitchell is supervisor of the white male department, and J. W. Austin is supervisor of the colored male department. Miss Fannie Irwin is in charge of the white females, and Miss Willie Ouarels is in charge of the colored females. O. What trained nurses have you, graduate nurses ? Miss Irwin, is she a trained nurse? A. She is a trained nurse. Q. Is she a graduate? A. Yes, sir; she graduated at this institu¬ tion. Q. Mr. Mitchell, is he a trained nurse? A. Yes, sir; he went through the regular school here. Q. Have you, beyond him, any trained nurses in the white male department? A. Not to any extent. Q. Have you here any trained nurse in the female department, I mean graduate trained nurses, what is taken in the sense of hospital trained nurses? A. Not outside of this institution. Q. Is Mr. Austin a graduate trained nurse? A. Yes, sir; he . passed through the same according to my knowledge. 0 . Miss Quarles? A. The same as Miss Irwin. O. Who is in charge of your mechanical department? A. Mr. Sineath. Q. What assistants has he? A. He has none except just regular laborers, carpenters, etc. 152 Q. He is in charge, as I understand it, of all the mechanical end of the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. Will you tell me who is in charge of the financial end of the institution? A. Mr. J. W. Bunch. Q. What is his title? A.. Secretary and Treasurer and Steward. Q. What assistants has he? A. In his office? Q. At all ? A. A clerk. He has a clerk in his office. Q. Will you name the departments he is in charge of now? A. He is in charge of the finances, the farm, and the steward. I do not know whether you would call that the farm or put that under a separate heading. Q. He is is in charge of the finances and the farm? A. Yes, sir. Q. And he is steward? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is he in charge of the store room? A. Yes, sir; I think that comes under the head of steward, sir. Q. And the kitchens? A. Yes, sir; I think that is included under the head of steward. Q. You stated that you thought so? You are not really clear? A. That is my understanding. Q. That is your understanding? A. He is the steward as I understand, and as such would be in charge of that department. Q. Suppose we take your department. I think we have a clear idea from what we have heard, of the executive part of the institu¬ tion.. I want to ask you along the line of the department you have charge of. You say you have charge of the white male wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. What medical assistants have you? A. None except the supervisor. He assists me. He sends the medicines on the ward, and then the nurses distribute the medicines. Q. Is not the supervisor also the prescription clerk for the institu¬ tion? A. Yes, sir. Q. In other words, he fills all the prescriptions for the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is he a graduate pharmacist? A. No, sir. Q. You then have under the supervisor attendants, I believe, which you call nurses? A. Yes, sir; we call them nurses. 0 . How many of those have you? A. Fifteen today, sir. 0 . How many patients have you today? A. 357. O. I would like to take up the matter as to where your office is located as to its conveniences, etc. Your offices are where? A. In this building, the adjoining room. 1 i53 Q. Is that your private office ? A. That is the only office I have. We call it the general office, but that is the office I occupy. Q. That is the general office? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who is in that office besides yourself regularly, doctor? A. Dr. Saunders, Dr. Griffen, when he is here, and the stenographer. Q. You have, then, a stenographer employed by the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the stenographer for the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. Well? A. I do not know whether she is strictly the stenogra¬ pher for the institution. That is what I understood. She works in the office. She has never done any work except stenographer in the office. She has been here only two or three months, sir. Q. When was she employed? A. As well as I remember she was employed in November. It might have been the latter part of October. Q. In your office work and your other work it takes a good deal of time? A. Yes, sir; there is always a plenty to do. Q. Are you subject to interruptions? A. Yes, sir, very much. Most everybody that comes into the building sees some one there, and they come right in here. Q. That office is a sort of receiving room for the institution? A. To some extent. They are just as apt to go in there as to go into the parlor. Q. Does not that interrupt your business? A. It would naturally. Q. Yourself and the other physicians? A. I include those in the office. Q. In that office, doctor, what apparatus have you for the filing of your various records ? A. There is nothing there except for the filing of the commitment papers. Q. Have you a perfect system of filing according to the modern filing system? A. No, sir. We have nothing except for the regular commitment papers. Q. Are they put on shelves? A. Just shelves classified by the hundred. Take for instance, No. i runs to a hundred and would be in the first package, and so on from that. Q. You cannot, then, classify them according to the initials? A. No, sir; it goes by number. Q. They are arranged only by number? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you convenient desks? A. Not the most modern. Q. I mean, are they convenient ? A. Fairly convenient. 0 . I want to take a specific instance. If you wish to dictate a 154 letter to your stenographer or to do any writing on a case or any sort of letter, have you any private place where you can go to do that work? A. No, sir. 0 . In other words, if you were dictating that letter you would be subject to the interruption of any one coming in and attending to other business? A. Naturally would. Q. I want you to go on and explain, take up a patient that is brought here. What is your understanding of the purpose of an institution of this sort ? A. How do you mean ? Q. I mean the purpose as regards the patients? What is the object of this institution? This institution is for the treatment of patients, is it not? A. Yes, sir. Q. Should it not be the purpose of this institution to cure as nearly as possible? A. As far as possible. Q. And every means possible looking towards a cure of curable cases. I Believe there are a large number? A. A few. They claim that there are a few, a small percentage. Q. Quite a large percentage of cases can be so much improved or a recovery had that they can be sent back to their homes, or various places, after a more or less great length of time, is not that true? A. Yes, sir. Q. In the meantime the State would be relieved of their care? A. Yes, sir, in a great many instances they come back, but still the institution would be relieved for a time. 0 . And it is probable that they can be some use in the world while they are out? A. Yes, sir. 0 . How are patients admitted to this institution? A. Admitted? Q. Admitted. A. There is a regular form according to the State law. Q. You have a regular form? A. That the Judge of Probate as the acting officer fills out. Q. And the various counties commit them on the approbation of the Judge of Probate and the endorsement of two physicians, I believe?' A. Yes, sir. Q. What classes of patients do you receive from a mental stand¬ point? Do you receive criminals—criminal insane and inebriates? A. Yes, sir. Q. Idiots? A. Yes, sir. Q. Drug patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Epileptics? A. Yes, sir. Q. Cases of acute mania? A. Yes, sir. : 55 Q. From a physical standpoint, you receive almost every known disease, do you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. Paralysis, itch, measles, anything? A. Yes, sir. Q. As to the age of the patients, do you receive children? A. Yes, sir. Q. About what is the age that you receive children ? A. The youngest that I can recollect was five years old. Q. Five years old? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there any limit as to the age at which you receive people, so far as being old is concerned? A. No, sir. Q. You receive them no matter how old? A. Yes, sir. Q. As to the conditions, disease, do you receive patients in the last stage of disease frequently ? A. I could not say frequently. We have received that class of patients. Q. It has been done? A. Yes, sir. Q. A patient might die the first day after he arrived at the institu¬ tion? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is correct? A. Yes, sir. 0. Your receiving ward? Have you a regular ward for receiv¬ ing? A. The understanding is if the patient is suitable for the hospital—outside of that we have not. Q. You have no receiving ward? A. No, sir. Q. You just put them anywhere? A. Yes, sir; whenever we have a vacancy, we try to put them in a suitable ward. If they are suita¬ ble for a quiet ward, we put them there. Q. If possible? A. If possible. Q. As soon as possible they are put there? A. Yes, sir. Q. What receiving room have you for a patient suffering from a contagious disease? A. We have not any. Q. Then when a patient is received he is received directly on the ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. That patient as you have said may be suffering from any bodily disease? A. Yes, sir. Q. I want to ask you about the method of examining him, as to the physical and mental examination, how soon after he is received, doctor, before he is examined? A. Well, the first visit that the physician makes, but if he is very feeble the physician goes in right away. Q. In that case they make a special visit? A. Yes, sir. Q. If it is a very feeble patient? A. Yes, sir. Q. If not, he is visited on the next round, on the next regular round? A. Yes, sir. Q. After the examination, what would be done with him? A. If a feeble patient? 0. Yes. A. He would be instructed to be put to bed and given a stimulant, whatever stimulant might appear to be necessary. Q. That would be your instruction? A. Otherwise, he is put on the ward. He is given the privilege of the ward if he is in condi¬ tion for it, if not he is put into a room. Q. How soon is he bathed after he comes? A. The instructions are to bathe and change the clothing right away. Q. Immediately? A. Yes, sir. Q. On arriving on the ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. What place has the nurse to do that in? A. The regular bath tub in the bath room. O. Just take them to the bath room and bathe them in the bath tub the patients use regularly? A. Yes, sir. Q. What physical examination is it possible for you to make in addition to the other duties you have to perform. What physical examination is it possible to make in that case? A. Well, on the ward we fill out what is called a physician's card. Q. Now, do you strip him, doctor? A. As a general thing we take off the shirt, but not the pants and drawers. Q. Have you a chart. You are familiar, of course, with what I am speaking of? A. Yes, sir. O. A chart with the drawing of the patient on that chart, and do you fill out that chart showing the various bodily defects so that whatever the disease taken might be you would be able to observe its effects ? A. No, sir. We have nothing of that kind. Q. The doctor’s card is the only record you have of the physical examination? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that physical examination in the nature of the circumstances, is it complete from a hospital standpoint? A. Well, I cannot say that it is complete according to the modern plan. Q. It is not as complete as you would like it made? A. No, sir. Q. Now, have you scales for weighing them, doctor, conven¬ iently located? A. Not very convenient, but we have scales for weighing them. Q. You have scales? A. Yes, sir ; we stopped that sometime past. Q. That has not been done? A. For sometime past in my depart¬ ment. *57 Q. In making these physical examinations with the appliances and the facilities at your command, are you able to make a perfect— what I am after, are you able to make a test to determine that patient’s physical condition ? A. No, not in a complete way. Q. As to their mental examination, I believe there is a form of mental examination that is used by alienists in such cases, is that not so? A. I believe it is. Q. Are you able to make that? A. No, sir we are not provided to make that. Q. That is really never made? No, sir. Q. You tell me that as soon as he is received on the ward your instructions to the nurses are to bathe him? A. Yes, sir, that is the instruction to bathe and change the patient’s clothes as soon as he is received. Q. Do they carry that out-faithfully ? A. No, sir, they do not. Q. These patients that are brought in, are they ever covered with lice? A. They are. Q. Vermin? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it not probable that coming in that way they spread those things over the whole ward? A. They do do it. Q. As to the clinical records you keep, do you require them to keep any clinical records at this institution, in the first place? A. I cannot say we keep anything like a clinical record here. Q. It is not possible under the circumstances ? A. It does not seem to me that it is. Q. Is not that of the utmost importance in treating these cases ? A. It does seem that it is very necessary. Q. I would like to ask you to explain to the Commission just what a clinical record is. I have an idea in my mind, but I cannot explain it ? A. A clinical record would be one taken from the bedside of the patient from day to day or as often as necessary. O. In order to keep up with the patient’s condition, and hold him under observation from the first month that he is here—that would be absolutely necessary? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any facilities for keeping the history of a case after it is brought here? A. We have what is called a history book. Q. In that book what have you about the condition of the patient? A. We put down the history of the patients as they come in, and are supposed to add to it from time to time any changes that might take place. 158 Q. I will ask that a page of that book be placed in evidence, so that it will appear in evidence. Now, doctor, I want to ask you about the treatment for insanity. I want you to give me your ideas. You have had twenty-eight years’ experience in this hospital, and I want a man who is able to give an opinion on it. Is there any drug treatment that is efficacious in a case of insanity of the usual sort, doctor ? A. It is not considered so. Q. That it is not necessary ? A. There is not any treatment. Q. What would be the proper treatment do you think? You are able to to give an expert opinion ? What is the proper treatment for insanity? A. Well, as I see it, exercise as much as you can possibly give them, fresh air and nutritious diet. It takes little treatment. Q. How about recreations and amusements? Should they have that ? A. That is included. That is included in exercise, but if you want to separate them— Q. I just wanted to see if I could get it clearly in my mind. I know that exercise should come, work of some sort of diversion in that way? A. Yes, sir. Q. How about hydrotherapy, that treatment, do you consider it valuable? A. In a great many cases it would be very beneficial. In other cases it probably would not be of benefit. Q. In a good many cases it would be beneficial? A. Yes, sir. Q. As to the electric treatment. Would that be considered very beneficial? A. In cases, but I don’t think they put as much stress on that as on hydrotherapy, or the fresh air exercise. I think most institutions have it though. Q. Now, to get this thing in shape so it can be understood, the hydrotherapic treatment consists in giving baths of various sorts both hot and cold, hot packs and cold packs, does it not? A. The application of water in any shape. Q. To summarize that thing, the treatment for insanity would be exercise, fresh air, exercises in the way of amusements and employment and recreation? A. Yes, sir. You have not mentioned diet. Q. And a wholesome diet? A. Yes, sir. Q. Which of them do you place first? A. A nutritious diet. Q. What is done here in the way of amusements, providing amusements and recreation for the patients, I mean by the institu¬ tion ? A. The only amusements we have is dances regularly through the winter months, the fall, winter and spring months we have dancing. : 59 Q. Is that really the only amusement you have? A. Yes, sir. Q. Naturally that is done indoors? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there any attempt made to give recreation or amusement on the wards? A. We have a graphophone, that is the only instru¬ ment that we send on different wards. Q. You have one? A. One, yes, sir. Q. Is it sent on different wards at different times? A. Yes, sir. Q. I am speaking from the institution’s standpoint, how about baseball? A. Well, we have had the baseball team in operation for a year and a half or two years. Q. Are the materials for that furnished by the institution*? A. Only partly. I might say last year—last year the institution fur¬ nished suits for two teams. Q. Will you tell me how that work was done last year, the cir¬ cumstances surrounding it? A. How it was gotten up? Q. Yes, sir. A. Through Mr. - influence. Q. I understand that. Will you tell me what part you and Dr. Saunders took in that? A. We encouraged it all we could by getting up such things as the patients asked us for, having them made clothes. For instance, some of the suits they had would not fit, and some altering was done by the female patients through the influence « of Dr. Saunders. Q. You were acting Superintendent at that time? A. Yes, sir. 0 . I believe that it was said that when those teams were played the women were taken out to watch them? A. Once or twice a week. Q. You and Dr. Saunders took great interest in that part of it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Would not you think that would be beneficial to your patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Both sexes? A. Yes, sir, the ladies were anxious to see the play and the men were anxious to play for them. Q. When was it discontinued, doctoe? A. The 20th of October— the 20th of September. Q. Is that when you went on your vacation? A. Yes, sir. Q. Therefore, doctor, beyond the dances, would you be safe in saying there is no systematic effort to give nfcreation or diversion to the patients? A. None except walks and exercise in the yard. That is exercise more than diversion. Q. You just turned them out in the yard and let them walk around ? A. That would come under the head of exercise. i6o Q. As to employment, you would consider that necessary, would you not, and proper? A. It is considered a part of the treatment. Q. How are the patients employed? A. They work on the wards in my department. Some go on the farm, a few go on the farm. A few in what we call the little repair shop, not over half a dozen, ten at the outside. Q. About what per cent, of them would you say go on the farm, out of the 357, how many? A. Not more than a very small per cent. I do not suppose more than five per cent.—hardly amount to five per cent, of them. Q. 'In other words, not more than five per cent, of them, you would say? A. From twelve to fifteen, not over fifteen. Q. About ten employed in the small repair shop? A. Not over ten, as an average. Q. An approximation is what I am after ? A. That is an average. Q. On the wards how many would you say are employed, inside, you understand? A. Yes, sir. I would sav about ten per cent, are employed on the wards. Q. About thirty then? A. Yes, sir, on all the wards. I mean the whole building, you know. Q. That is at the outside about fifty-five out of the 357 that are under you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Would you be safe in saying any systematic attempt was made to give employment to them? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that there is any attempt made to reach individual cases, is there? In other words, to take a man and find out what kind of work he is likely to do to encourage him to do that work—any systematic attempt? A. No regular system. Q. You have no appliances for the hydrotherapathic treatment? A. No, sir. Q. It is not used at all? Never has been in the true sense? A. Of course, we use packs, etc., in certain cases, but not in the true sense. Q. That use of packs from what you tell me is in spite of the conditions rather than on account of them? A. Yes, sir. Q. I would like to ask you when you give a pack or any¬ thing, have you any# place to put the patient besides the bed he sleeps in? A. No, sir. Q. As to the electric treatment, have you static machines here? A. No, sir. Q. X-Ray machines? A. No, sir. i6i Q. In other words, you have absolutely no electric appliances ? A. None whatever. Q. Would you say under that statement this institution, so far as your department is concerned, is a custodian or a place for giving treatment? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it a mere custodian or a place for giving treatment, doctor ? A. Mere custodian. Q. In other words, there is really no treatment for insanity given here systematically ? A. No, sir. Q. I would like for you to tell the effect on patients from mixing these various classes that you spoke of, criminal insane, inebriates, drug fiends, epileptics, acute mania, etc., as I understand, are they mingled or mixed up together on these wards? A. Yes, sir; all mingled together. Q. Is the effect of mixing all those patients together bad? A. I know it would be with some. Q. In other words, it operates against some of the patients from a mental standpoint? A. Yes, sir. Q. So far as physical disease is concerned, is not your death rate from tuberculosis very high? A. Yes, sir. Q. It is? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is not virtually every ward in your department infected with tuberculosis ? A. Not every ward, a good many of the wards. Q. A good many are? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you have people to come here and contract it after they get here? A. Naturally would in the midst of it. Q. You have other contagious diseases in these wards, have you not? A. At times. Q. Have you any means of segregating those patients, any effective means? A. No, I cannot say so effectively. Q. You have no effective means of segregating contagious dis¬ eases of any sort? A. No, sir. If we had a small epidemic we could manage that, but in a large epidemic we would be helpless. Q. Helpless? A. Yes, sir. Q. As to the condition of your wards, you say you have fifteen attendants? A. Yes, sir. Q. For 357 patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are those wards kept clean? A. They could not be under such circumstances. Q. They are not clean? A. No, sir. Q. They could not be under those circumstances? A. No, sir. 11—A. Q. Are they kept in a sanitary condition? A. I cannot say that, not in a perfectly sanitary condition. 0 . Are the beds kept clean? A. No, sir, not as they should be. Q. I am speaking from a hospital standpoint. Would it be pos¬ sible under these circumstances? A. No, sir. Q. Have you any washable mattresses on these beds? You understand what I am speaking of, mattresses that can be, in case they are soiled by a patient, carried to the laundry and run through the mangle? A. No, sir. Q. Have you rubber sheets that you can fix on the beds so that the patients cannot slip them around? A. We have them with eyelets, but they cannot be secured permanently. Q. They cannot? A. For this reason, they can be torn. The patient will tear them loose. Q. Just follow out that a little bit, in case of a filthy man, a man that cannot hold his urine or his foeces, it is very probable that that bed is frequently soiled? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you have not assistants, or there is no force on that ward either to sun or clean that bed? A. Not sun, but we give the nurses instructions to change the beds. Q. Do they always do that? A. No, sir. Q. They do not? A. No, sir. I do not mean to say that is a general thing, but in many instances it is not done. 0 . In other words, the patient sleeps on the same bed after it is soiled? A. Yes, sir. O. As to the character of the beds, are they iron or wooden beds ? A. Mixed. Q. You have both iron and wood? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can a wooden bed be made sanitary? A. It is claimed that it cannot. Q. I am speaking from a hospital standpoint? A. Yes, sir. I understand. Q. They cannot be? A. No, sir. Q. As to the windows, are they kept clean? A. No, sir. Q. The walls, are they kept clean, in a sanitary condition? A. No, sir. 0 . The doors and floors and wood work generally? A. No, sir. Q. They are not kept clean and in a sanitary condition? A. No, sir. Q. Is the present state of affairs in those wards conducive to a healthful or an unhealthful condition in your opinion as a physician? A. As it stands now it is conducive to an uhealthful condition. Q. Are there bedbugs in the institution? A. Very prominent. Q. There are a good many of them, are there not? A. We have a good many times. At seasons we have not any, but at times a good many. Q. Head lice? A. Both. Q. I believe that last summer, if I am wrong put me right, you had a detail brought here to clean up that part of the department, did you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. That was done on your own authority? A. Dr. Saunders and myself talked it over. Q. You were then acting superintendent? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where did the detail come from? A. The colored female department ? Q. They went from ward to ward? A. Yes, sir, taking every ward in the male department. Q. Colored? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was that ever done before? A. Not since I have been here. Q. It has not been done since you have been here? A. No, sir. Q. How long since those wards, take the first ward, how long since it has been whitewashed? A. Several years. I cannot say positively, eight or ten years or maybe longer. Q. Is that the condition pretty generally throughout the white male department ? A. Generally. We had the second ward fixed up two years ago, a year and a half. 0. That is known as the best ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. Beyond that the condition that you speak of on the first ward is pretty general throughout the whole department, is it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are the pots of the patients ever left sitting around in the rooms with foeces in them and sticking about them ? A. That con¬ dition does exist. Q. It does exist? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there any provision for sunning those pots? A. None except to put them in the windows. Q. Put them in the windows of the room? A. They can put them out in the room, no regular place. Q. The patients or the nurses ? A. The nurses and the patients, the nurses and the patients together. 164 Q. I understand that. Do they do it ? A. They do not take them out in the yard. They do sun them in the windows sometimes. Q. I want to ask you now about the kitchens, where is the cooking for your department done? A. In the general kitchen, in the center building here. Q. What kind of a place is it, doctor, clean? A. No, sir. It is not kept clean by a good deal. Q. Is its condition proper from a sanitary standpoint? A. No, sir, I could not say that. Q. What is the nature of the employees? A. You mean in the kitchen ? Q. There are several cooks and several patients? Q. Several patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are those employees clean? A. No, not from a sanitary stand¬ point, not from a hospital standpoint. Q. How about from any other standpoint? A. Well, I suppose some of them think they are about as clean as they are at other places. Q. I was asking for your own opinion? A. Did you say, were they clean ? Q. Were they unclean? A. Yes, sir, unclean. Q. As to those patients that work in there, do they do a good part of the work in there ? A. I can not say that they do the biggest part. They work in there. Q. Do they handle the food? A. They do sometimes. Q. How often do those patients bathe ? A. The patients ? Q. Yes, sir. A. Once a week is the regular rule; oftener, if necessary. Q. You have been in there while they were at work? A. Yes, sir. Q. And observed the conditions? A. Yes, sir. 0. What condition were they in ? A. The patients that work in the kitchen? Q. Yes, sir. A. Generally very untidy. Q. Filthy? A. Yes, sir. Q. You said, I believe, that they did handle the food sometimes? A. Yes, sir. Q. It is not certain that those patients are bathed once a week, is it? A. I am not in touch with that department over there. They go to the colored male wards to take their baths. The supposition is that they do. Q. Have you ever been in that building, the negro men’s building, what do you call it? A. The Taylor building. Q. Have you ever been in there? A. Yes, sir. Q. What are the conditions in there? A. They are bad. Q. Very bad? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is the place foul and ill-smelling? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do the patients that do this cooking sleep in that place? A. Yes, sir. Q. Has the kitchen a door opening to the back yard? A. Yes, sir. There is a door opening into the back yard, towards the store room. Q. Does it stand open ? A. At times in the summer it is open. Q. Is there not a certain class of patients, idiots, lunatics, and various sorts of negroes that wander around in the back yard there ? A. A few. 0. Did you ever see them come into that kitchen and walk around in there? A. I cannot say that I have, not being there regularly, I do not know the number of patients that work there all the time. Q. Is there anything to prevent them? A. No, sir. Q. Anything to prevent them from going in there? A. No, sir. Q. I want to take up the question of the food that is served to your patients, is it wholesome? A. Well, I cannot say that it is altogether wholesome. Q. I am asking both for the present and past conditions as to that? A. What I have reference to as to its being wholesome is the preparation. Q. The preparation, that is what I am after. Is it appetizing? A. Not to a person of sound mind in many instances. Q. You made reference awhile ago to the diet, saying that a certain kind of food was necessary in the treatment of insanity? A. It must be nutritious. Q. Is this food nutritous? A. Some of it is. Q. Generally speaking? A. Well, I cannot say altogether that it is not nutritious. Q. You cannot say that it is and cannot say that it is not? A. For instance, there is a certain class of food that is nutritious, a certain class of it, and there is probably some that is not nutritious, if it is handled improperly, what I mean handling in the cooking. Q. Is there any examination made that you know of of those men in that kitchen, physical ? A. No, sir, unless attention is called by some one, no examination is made. Q. Is it not very possible that consumptives work in that kitchen ? A. It is probable, yes, sir; very probable. Q. In going in and out of the Parker building where you said 166 * the conditions were very bad, would they not be apt to carry the germs of all known diseases into that building? A. Very probable that they would if they existed in that department Q. Your patients always have enough to eat? A. They very seldom complain to me of not having enough to eat. O. Is the complaint made to you ? A. They may. A few patients complain now and again that they do not get enough to eat. Q. I would rather have your opinion? A. In a general way, I think they get enough, that is, the strong, healthy patients. Q. You have quite a good many ward dining rooms? A. Yes, sir. Q. Your fifth ward is the hospital ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. That food is carried into this building, I believe, and is sent up in a dumbwaiter? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever been at the foot of the dumbwaiter when they were sending up the food ? A. I cannot recollect an instance when I was there. Q. When it is taken out at the top, how is it taken out and served ? A. They take it out of the dining room and place it in the pantry. That is done in the dining room proper. Q. What is the condition of that pantry, clean and sanitary? A. Not any more than most other places about the male department. Q. Not any more than most other places? A. No, sir. Q. How about the dining room? A. A similar condition. Q. How many patients have you in that ward as a usual thing, doctor? A. Somewhere in the neighborhood of thirty or thirty-five. Q. Some of those men are bedridden? A. Yes, sir. Q. Don’t they sometimes sleep on a pallet on the floor? A. Yes, sir. Q. In bringing the food to them, it is brought in and placed where, where would the plate be placed? A. On the bed or on the floor beside. Q. On the floor beside him ? A. Provided he could eat the food himself. Q. That is done, is it not? A. Yes, sir. O. Is that food ever placed along beside the pot? A. Very probably it is. Q. Speaking of the dishes and the washing, how are those dishes washed in the dining room, are they washed by patients? A. Yes, sir. O. Is that washing properly done? A. No, sir. O. It is not? A. No, sir. 167 Q. Do the plates they eat out of ever come back to the table with the remains of the last meal sticking to them? A. I have never noticed that. I have occasionally noticed that the plates were not as clean as they should be, but I never noticed particles sticking to them. O. Are they greasy ? A. Yes. Q. Those plates are tin, aren’t they? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the cups are tin ? A. Yes, sir. Q. As to the employees in that kitchen, were they responsible to you or not ? A. The employees in the kitchen ? Q. Yes, sir. A. I have always looked at it as being under the charge of the steward?. Q. Haven’t you, or have you ever reported the condition of those to the management ? A. The condition of the force in the kitchen ? Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, sir, I complained about the food and the condition of it, the preparation, etc. Q. You have never made a report of that to the Board of Regents? A. No, sir. Q. You never made a report to the Board of Regents? A. No, sir. Q. I want to take up the subject of the main mess hall. You have such a mess hall where a certain class of patients eat? A. Yes, sir. 0 . About how many eat there, just approximately? A. About 275, I suppose, about 250 to 275, not over 225 to 250. Q. It does not matter particularly. Is that kitchen kept clean, doctor? A. No, sir. Q. Who waits on it ? Who attends to the dishing out of the food and placing it on the table, etc. ? A. Patients and nurses, a few nurses and the balance are patients. Q. Is there a competent man in charge of that department? A. No, sir. Q. The dishes are washed there, I believe, are they not, doctor? A. In the mess hall, yes, sir. Q. That is done by whom? A. Patients. Q. Your patients go down there and the food is served on plates on the table, and then they sit down to it, do they not. Is that the idea? A. The plates are served before the patients come in. O. The plates are served? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is done with the other parts of the food, bread, and 168 baked sweet potatoes, are they placed on the plates or on the table? A. On the table as a general thing. Q. Sometimes the beef is placed on the table, is it not? A. I have never seen it placed on the table. Q. What do they eat with? A. Spoons. Q. What is the condition of these plates and cups—tin, I believe? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are they greasy? A. As a general thing, they are. Q. Would you consider that as appetizing, doctor, an inviting place? A. Not to a sane man. Q. Don’t you have some men in there, quite a good many proba¬ bly, that can realize the condition? A. Very likely. I cannot recol¬ lect any speaking to me about this, very likely they realize that. 0 . You also complained about conditions in the mess hall, haven’t you, or have you, haven’t you ever complained about the conditions there? A. I cannot recollect that I have. Q. You did not feel inclined to press that question because you knew nothing about it? You have no authority over that depart¬ ment? A. Over the mess hall? 0 . Yes, sir. A. It is somewhat like it is on the wards, it is in my department because my patients eat there. 0 . Have you any authority over the kitchen force whatever, doctor? A. None except reporting to the higher officers. Q. You simply report? You have no authority to give orders directly in there? A. No, sir. Q. You had a complaint made to you by patients about the con¬ dition of eggs down there? A. Yes, sir. Q. The young man testified here that he sent a piece of an egg to you. What was the truth of that matter, doctor? A. When he showed it to me, he said he did not know what was the matter, but it did not look wholesome, and when I examined it there were coffee grounds where it had rested on the utensil it had been cooked in. O. That would show what method of cooking? A. Very care¬ less. Q. It would be unclean, would it not? A. I don’t know that coffee grounds are very unclean. The method is unclean. Q. You have visited the dairy, haven’t you? A. I have, but not often enough to express myself, because I have not been there for some little time. Q. I just supposed a man in your position would visit every part 169 of the institution ? A. I have not been out there for I don’t know how long. Q. Within a year? A. No, sir. Q. When you were there, doctor, did you see the milking going on? A. I cannot recollect that I have ever been there when they were doing the milking, because the milking time was about the time I was on my ward duties. Q. You have been there at other times? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the condition of the floor of the dairy, was it clean? A. As I remember it, they were in the act of cleaning up then. The}' were cleaning up and I could not judge very well at a time like that. Q. Have you ever been in the milk storage house? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is its condition? Is it kept clean? A. Well, I cannot say that it is clean. Q. Their method of cooling the milk is to pour it over a vessel in which there is ice, that is their way of cooling it, is it? A. A kind of drum. Q. Who attends to that work? Who does it? A. I think there is a patient that does it, did it one time. I have not been there and seen it, but I think a patient does it. Q. Then, what is done with the milk when it is cooled there, doctor? A. It is cooled there and put in cans and then put back in the ice in the refrigerator. Q. Who does the handling, a patient or an employee? A. I could not say. I would not be positive about that. Q. Did you not notice the condition of the men’s clothing that were handling that milk? A. I have from time to time. Q. Is it clean or unclean? A. Not clean. 0 . And their hands and bodies, do they seem to be clean or unclean ? A. Unclean, that is what you would call them from a hospital standpoint. Q. That is what we are speaking of now. That milk is brought from there to the kitchen, is it not? A. Yes, sir. 0 . What is the usual method of carrying that milk? A. I think they carry it in cans by the hand. O. Do the patients carry it or the employees? A. Principally by the patients. The housekeeper may carry it sometimes, but princi¬ pally by the patients. Q. Were those cans open top or close top at the time you observed them ? A. Open top. 170 0 . Were they cans really or buckets? A. My impression was that they were cans. Q. With an open top ? A. It has not been right recently though. O. Those patients carrying the milk, did you observe whether they were clean or unclean ? A. They were the kitchen crowd I have just spoken about. Q. The same kitchen crowd ? A. Yes, sir. Q. I want to ask your opinion as a physician, is it not necessary from a health standpoint that every care should be taken in the handling of milk? A. Yes, sir. O. Isn't it one of the greatest germ producers in the world? A. Supposed to be. Q. That is from a medical standpoint? A. Yes, sir. Q. And from a standpoint of health, ought not most extreme precautions be used to make the conditions surrounding the hand¬ ling of it sanitary? A. Yes, sir. O. That milk is taken into the kitchen, is it not? A. Yes, sir. Q. It is sent from there out on the wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the method of distributing it, in the kitchen for instance? A. Just distribute it in smaller cans. 0 . Pour it from larger into smaller cans? Who does that work, the same crowd? A. The kitchen crowd, yes, sir. O. Have you ever noticed them pouring that milk, doctor, have you ever paid any particular attention to that? A. No. I have been out there when they were distributing it, but I can’t say I noticed that particularly. Q. I want to talk to you on the subject of fire protection. What fire protection have you here? A. We have what we call the ward hose, distributed on the different wards. Q. You have city protection, have you not? A. Yes, sir. O. Those hose on the ward are kept how, please? A. They are kept in closets hanging on pegs or in racks there. Q. Are they efficient? A. I cannot say they are. They have not been tried to my knowledge recently. Q. How long since they were tried as near as you can tell us ? A. It has been several years. Q. Have you any chemical extinguishers of any sort? A. We used to keep them, and they are sitting around now. I don’t think they are any good. O. No good? A. No, sir. Q. Have you any sort of grenade or bottle affair that you keep on the wards? A. We used to keep them, but they are extinct now. Q. How about the chemical extinguisher about this big (indicat¬ ing). They are used a great deal around, that you invert? A. That is what I had reference to when I said they were not in use now. Q. How many has the hospital ? A. They used to have them sitting around a good many places, especially in the center building. The chemical has turned out useless. It sits so long it seems to have evaporated utterly. Q. Therefore, the only protection you have from the inside is the hose on the wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. When the old hose were taken out and the new hose put in, what was the condition of the old hose? A. They were rotten in many instances. Q. They would have been absolutely ineffective in the case of fire? A. Yes, sir. Q. What instructions have you from the management in case of fire? A. I haven’t any. Q. You have no instructions? A. No, sir. Q. What instructions have the nurses? A. None. Q. In case of fire really no one knows what to do ? A. Except to get the men out. We have a night watchman, and there is a firebox in front. Q. He can turn on the alarm ? A. Yes, sir. Q. He is the only man? A. Yes, sir, and notify the officers. Q. I want to suppose a case. Suppose fire were to break out in this wing here, would the nurses know about how to go about getting the patients out in a systematic way? A. No, sir. 0 . In case of a fire like that, wouldn’t everything burn? A. In what way? Q. In that case wouldn’t they burn like rats in a trap? A. Yes, sir. Q. I believe you said there was a watchman, doctor, do you know whether he makes his rounds or not? A. We have nothing to prove that he does. He makes his report. Q. You only have his word for it? A. Yes, sir. O. Have you a watchman's clock? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it in operation? A. No, sir. Q. How long since it has been in operation ? A. Six or seven years. I can’t say positively since the building was rewired. Q. There is no fire drill of the employees whatever? A. No, sir. 172 Q. Why is not that clock used? Can you tell me? A. My only knowledge is that it has no dials. Q. No dials? A. We had a man to look over the wiring after the electricians got through wiring the building, and it is my recollection that he reported the wiring all right. Q. It works with a paper dial? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is punched? A. Whenever he punches his station. Q. And you have none of those paper dials? A. No, sir. Q. We were speaking about exits from the wards. You have said, I believe, that there was an exit from each end of the ward, and one on the ward at some place? A. We have an exit into the center building, and an exit down stairs, and to the fifth ward. Q. In other words, there is an exit at either end of the ward? A. Yes, sir, and somewhere along the side. Q. Are those staircases safe for men to come down hurriedly? A. At present the steps are badly worn. Q. That is bad even for a sane man ? A. Likely to slip, something of that kind. Q. Is the location of the dumbwaiter near the location of those staircases? A. Yes, sir. The dumbwaiter is right along by the side of the staircases. Q. In case of fire that dumbwaiter would became a flue for the fire? A. Yes, sir. O. Would it render the staircase untenable? A. Yes, sir. Q. What reports are made to you in your department? A. They have a regular morning report. Q. The nurses do? A. Yes, sir, regular morning report. 0 . I will ask that one be put in evidence. Do they make that report to you or to the supervisor ? A. The supervisor. Q. To whom does the supervisor report? A. To me. Q. I will ask that one of these be put in? A. He has no report except the condensed nurses report. Q. He writes it in a book? A. Yes, sir. Q. He makes no regular report to you? A. No, sir. He just condenses it from the reports into the book. Q. What daily report do you make to the Superintendent? A. None. Q. Do you ever make any report to the Board of Regents? A. No, sir. Q. What is the nature of the report you make to the Superin- 1 73 tendent? A. Nothing that is filed. I go and look him up if I have anything. Q. The report is verbal? A. Verbal report. Q. Suppose you wanted to find him now, where would you go to find him ? A. I would go to his house. Q. That is the Superintendent’s office? A. Yes, sir, at his house. Q. Is he usually in his office or out? A. Well, if you go there early you can catch him in his office. Q. The Superintendent has no means of knowing the conditions in your ward except by your report, by your personal or verbal report, or a personal inspection? A. The supervisor sometimes reports verbally. Q. He is your subordinate? A. Yes, sir. Q. Some years ago the institution had a plot in Elmwood Ceme¬ tery, didn’t it? A. Yes, sir. Q. For burial? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know anything about bodies being buried there in the same grave? A. I never heard of their being buried in the same grave, in the space between they would put new ones. Q. In the space between two? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were the bones of the dead ever thrown up? A. It was reported. Q. You did not see it? A. No, sir. Q. But it was reported that that occurred? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you remember who made the report? A. I do not. I know that it was reported. I do not know whether it was done by the undertaker or by one of the employees from here going with the undertaker to bury the patients. Q. If that state of affairs existed, how was it possible—you say the attempt was made to bury the dead between two of the graves? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was there not enough room? A. No, the space was filled up. Q. The plot that belonged to the institution ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then they went back and dug between the graves? A. Yes, sir, that is my recollection. 0 . Of your own knowledge, you do not know that? You onlv know that it was reported? A. Yes, sir. Q. That the bones were thrown out? A. I did not see it. Q. You just know that it was reported? A. Yes, sir. Q. You said Dr. Griffin was the biologist of this institution? 174 A. Well, I don’t know that he is a biologist. He was employed to do whatever work we needed of a bacteriologist. Q. That is what I was after. I just got the word wrong. How much time does Dr. Griffin give this institution per day, doctor? A. Well, on an average I could safely say, not over two and a half or three hours. Q. On an average? A. Yes, sir. O. Is it usually so much? A. I never studied anything of that kind. I just wanted to be on the safe side. Q. Does he do this bacteriological work for you? A. Whenever I ask him. Q. Do you often ask him? A. Not very often. Q. Does Dr. Saunders do any of that work for you? A. Yes, sir, I sometimes ask her. Q. Have you a complete laboratory connected with the institution for that work? A. Not a complete one. Q. Have you an efficient laboratory? A. We got those things according to Dr. Griffin’s request. He asked for only those things. I am not a bacteriologist, and I do not know really what they need, but what he asked for he got. Q. I understand that most of the work for the institution is done by Dr. Saunders of that nature. Is that correct, doctor? A. She does all the work for herself, and Dr. Griffin does a little for me. I don’t think he does anything for Dr. Babcock. Q. What is the salary that Dr. Griffin gets? A. One hundred dollars a month. Q. $1200.00 a year? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many visits to this institution does he make? A. One. Q. He comes to the Parker building, does he not? A. Yes, sir. Q. The negro male department ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any operating room? A. No, sir. Q. In case of an operation, where are the patients taken? A. We scrub up a room on the ward. We do not encourage it. We try to have them taken to a private hospital. Q. Can you make that room on the ward aseptic? A. No, sir, not like it should be. Q. In other words, if you operate on a patient in one of those rooms, there is no telling what might ensue? A. That is one of the reasons we do not encourage operations. Q. Is it done sometimes? A. Well, we have to operate occa¬ sionally. We had one last year, brought it to the private parlor. i75 Q. In other words, then you have absolutely no appliances or anything of that sort for operating on a patient in case of emergency ? A. No, sir. Q. Do you ever recall a report to you about the cruelty to a patient? A. Yes, sir. 0 . Will you please tell the Commission the circumstances con¬ nected with it? A. That patient was working in the general mess hall with a nurse, C. W. Brown. There was something said by the nurses to the patient that irritated the patient, and the patient left the mess hall, that is, according to my investigation of the case. Q. That is what I wanted? A. He left the mess hall and went upstairs to the ward he staid on. The nurse, after dinner, after going through with the meal, went on to his own ward, which was beyond the patient’s ward. When he got to his own ward and started into the sitting room the patient was standing where he did not notice him, and jumped on him and struck him and threw him down. The nurses then managed to get him down and bruised him up a good deal. That was as it was stated to me, and after making the investigation that I could. Q. You saw him afterwards? A. Brown came down to the mess hall and reported the matter to me. Q. What was the patient’s condition afterwards? A. When I got up there, and I went as soon as he reported it, his eyes were pretty smartly gouged, some scratches, not deep, scratched about the face. Q. Did you report that to the Superintendant ? A. He and I talked it over. Q. Was the nurse discharged? A. No, because after I inves¬ tigated the facts, and learned that the patient had struck first and got the advantage of him, I think there was some excuse, and I did not ask doctor to discharge him. We talked the matter over and we thought he was justified somewhat at least. The Chairman—Did the nurse himself make the report? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison—Do you know a similar case of--? Was a report make to you of that case? A. Yes, sir. Q. He was a patient? A. Yes, sir. T think that was the patient’s name. Q. Was not the report that was made to you that he had been assaulted? A. Yes, sir. Q. Will you tell the Committee as to that case from your investi¬ gation, if you made one? A. It was reported to me that this man i ;6 had been attacked by the nurses, illtreated by the nurses. That was in the afternoon as well as I remember, and I went in and examined the patient, and saw that he was pretty smartly bruised up, and I was going the next morning on the early train, and I said to Mr. Mitchell, “I want you to call Dr. Babcock's attention to this case when he comes through, because I will not see him. I am going oft" on the early train.’’ Q. Your connection with it ended there? A. Yes, sir. Q. I want to ask you did you investigate that matter at all at that time? A. I investigated and found that the nurse had attacked him without any apparent—at least he jumped on him without any apparent cause, treated him that way. There might have been a cause at the first, but it appeared that he had treated him that way without any just cause. Q. In other words, it was an unprovoked attack? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the condition of this man Belcher’s face ? A. It was as well as I remember a slight bruise. I am not sure but what Mr. Mitchell had put a stitch in it, but I am not sure about that. Q. A stitch in the man’s face? A. Yes, sir. I will not be posi¬ tive about that. Sometimes when I am busy Mr. Mitchell takes charge of those little flesh wounds. That is the reason I am not positive as to the stitch being put there. Q. Who was that nurse? A. Johnson. Q. Was he discharged at that time? A. Not then, no, sir. Q. Do you remember how long he remained in the institution after that? A. As well as I remember it was several months. I could not say positively whether it was four, six, or eight months, several months. 0 . How much hot water have you in those wards? A. Well, sir, I can’t say exactly how much it is, but it is short. Q. It is short? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there not an order in the winter time to bathe no patient in cold water? A. Yes, sir. Q. In that case Friday is the bathing day, is it not? A. We have various days, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. We cannot bathe all in one day or two days. Q. Is the hot water very short when the bathing is going on ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it during that time that they sometimes bathe more than one in the same tub? A. I have never seen it. It is reported. i/7 Q. What would be the effect in that case? A. It would either be to bathe several in the same water, or not bathe them at all. Q. You would have to bathe two or three in the same water or not bathe them at all? A. Yes. The instruction is not to bathe two patients in the same water. Q. From your observation do they observe that instruction, doc¬ tor? A. I have never noticed that especially. Q. You make two rounds in your department a day? A. Yes, sir. Q. You go through the whole business twice a day? A. Yes, sir. There might be one, or two where there are any sick. Q. If there is no patient on a ward you might not go? A. Yes, sir. Q. You virtually get over the whole thing twice a day? A. Yes, sir. Q. You have under your charge thirteen wards, have you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. That includes the end of this and the Taylor building? A. Three in the Taylor building and ten in this. Q. What other inspection is made of your wards? A. Mr. Mitchell is supposed to make inspections. Q. He goes with you? A. He is supposed to go through at other times too. Q. Does the Superintendent ever inspect your department, doctor ? A. He has not been there for some time to my knowledge. Q. How long, couldn’t you tell us? A. No, sir, I could not 'sav, some time. Q. A month ? A. As far as I could say, some years, that is, a regu¬ lar inspection. Q. The Board of Regents has an executive regent. Has that executive regent ever made an inspection of your department? A. Yes, sir, he has gone through it. Q. Which executive regent was that that went through, that you remember in the last year or so? A. I took Drs. Taylor and Ray through last year, last summer. I cannot recollect which one has gone through since then. Q. What was the nature of that inspection? Do they just walk down the corridors or go into the rooms and look at the beds? A. My recollection is that they did not examine anything specially. 0 . Nothing specially? A. Yes, sir. 12—A. i7» Q. Just walked through the wards, is that it? A. Yes, sir, that is my recollection. Q. Did they stop and talk with the patients? A. Whenever a patient came up and wanted to talk they had a few words with him. Q. Did they inspect the water closets and the sinks? A. No, sir, not to my knowledge, not as I can remember. Q. That was Dr. Ray and Dr. Taylor? A. Yes, sir, two different times. Q. On different occasions? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you recollect any other of the Board of Regents inspecting your wards during that past year? A. During the summer? Q. During the past year? A. Well, I think some of the others have gone in, but I cannot recollect who they were. I recollect taking Drs. Taylor and Ray in and calling their attention to the condition of the flooring, etc. Dr. Taylor made a full report on that at the next meeting. Q. I just wanted to get at that point, the kind of inspections that were made. I was going to ask you if there were any further cases of cruelty reported to you? A. Well, those things occur occasionally. Q. I understand that. Where an investigation is made, and the nurse is at fault, is he promptly discharged? A. Not in every instance. Q. He is not always promptly discharged? A. No, sir. Q. Is he sometimes retained for a great or less length of time? A. For instance, after it is made, we are so cramped for nurses we cannot turn them off. Q. You had a man named Hinnant working here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wasn’t he twice discharged from the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was it done for? A. For abusive treatment of patients. Q. On both occasions for abuse of patients? A. Rough handling of patients. Q. In others words, he was discharged for abuse of patients, and later was discharged again for abuse of patients? A. Yes, sir. The Chairman—As to the cooking, you made the statement, as I recollect it, that sane and healthy patients in a general way got enough food? A. Yes, sir. Q. What would you say about the weak and sickly patients. As to quantity and quality? A. What I meant was the variety. Q. How about the preparation? A. The preparation is not as good as it should be. 179 Q. Is it nutritious for the sickly? A. I had reference to the others. Our principal diet for the sick is milk and eggs, and what I had reference to was the preparation was different, soups, teas and things of that kind for the sick in addition to the milk and the eggs. Q. Would you say they were properly prepared for the sick, doctor? A. The eggs? Q. Yes, sir, the diet you speak of? A. No, it is not properly pre¬ pared for the sick. Therefore, we have to rely principally on milk for our sick diet. Q. Are the unsanitary conditions of the beds, walls, rooms, halls and clothes generally that you have testified about, is that due in a considerable measure to the lack of discipline ? A. It is. Q. And an atmosphere of disorganization? A. It is. Q. Does that seem to pervade the institution ? A. I do not know about other departments. It is in mine, sir. Q. We have heard from other witnesses that you are careful, kind and tactful as an official. Do you think that you are responsible for this laxity of discipline? A. No, sir, I can’t say that. Partly I am, but not to the greatest extent. Q. Where would the responsibility lie to the greatest extent? A. I think I discussed the condition, too small help and the unloyalty of some of the nurses, not all, but some of them. Q. Would you say there are nurses here who ought not to be here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you complained of them? A. There is one that I have. 0 . When did you complain? How long ago? A. That nurse has been here some time, and it was probably several months ago that I complained of his being inefficient, of that particular nurse being inefficient. Q. If you were to have your way, would there be several attend¬ ants in your wards replaced? A. Yes, sir, if I could get them, if I could get others that were better. Q. Is it a part of your duty to employ nurses? A. No, sir. Q. You make complaint to the Superintendent and it is his duty to employ? A. It has always been that way. That has always been my understanding. Q. And to discharge? A. Yes, sir. Q. You say you would recommend today the discharge of a good many on your wards? A. Well, there are several that are not suitable for tbe place, but it would not do to discharge them and i8o get nobody in their places. That has been the condition for some time past. Q. You would recommend the discharge and leave it to the authorities to secure the kind of help you think you ought to have? A. Yes, sir. It has been the case that whenever I went to the Superintendent about these things he would say, well, as soon as we can get better nurses we will let them go. Q. How long have these objectionable ones been here? A. That particular one has been here some years. Q. What is your objection to that nurse? A. He is incapable. Q. What is his name? A. Mr. Able. Q. You can say that the insane generally do not know the con¬ ditions in the dining room? A. No, sir, as a general thing they do not. Q. If they were sane, do you think there would be a great deal of complaint from them ? A. Very probably there would be. Q. It is deserving of complaint? A. Yes, sir, there is cause for it. Q. In using the phrase “unclean” relative to the condition of the patients, their clothing, their beds, and their surroundings, you mean those conditions are a positive menace to the health of the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. You spoke of a graphophone, is that supplied by the institu¬ tion? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Hardin—Is it an easy matter to get suitable nurses? A. Well, sir, I do not know. I have always left that to the Superin¬ tendent, and in discussing it with him, when I would want them, he would say that he was trying to get suitable men, and as fast as he could get them in he would do so, sir. 0 . Is all the space occupied in your wards, all the rooms, doctor ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is all the space occupied in the hospital generally here? A. I think so. 0 . You spoke of not having a receiving room when patients came in? A. I think so. They have a receiving room for the female patients, I think, but of that I am not positive. 0 . You spoke of bugs being pretty general? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever received patients with lice? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever seen bugs on patients? A. Lice? Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir, they are almost constantly in there. Q. What year did you come here, in 1881 ? A. Yes, sir. O. How does the condition of the institution now compare with i8i what it was then, the growth, you have been here quite a long time, the buildings and things of that kind? A. I do not just exactly understand. Q. Is it much larger now? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are the buildings in a better' or in an inferior condition to what they were when you came here ? A. The buildings that we had then were in very good condition, the inside condition. Q. Have there been several buildings built here within the last ten years? A. Yes, sir. Afternoon, May 6, 1909. Commission called to order this afternoon. Present: The members of the Commission. Dr.. Thompson resumes the stand. Dr. Babcock—I don’t suppose anybody can appreciate more than I can the stress under which you have been laboring for some weeks past, and I am sorry that I have to prolong your ordeal by asking you any questions. Q. You used to have charge of both the white men and the negro men? A. Yes, sir. 0 . When were you relieved? A. In 1905. Q. Who relieved you of the negro men? Dr. Griffin. Q. And since then you have had a stenographer to help you about your duties in addition? A. Not a stenographer since 1905. Q. In December ? A. Some time along about the middle of Octo¬ ber. Q. Something was said about Mr. Hinnant having been discharged for abuse of a patient and subsequently coming back. We have occasionally given a man a second trial upon promise that he would reform, particularly when we have been shorthanded on the wards? A. When we are shorthanded we have to make a compromise, Q. We have to make certain compromises? A. Yes, sir. 0 . That is the case with a man you have now, George Brown ? A. Yes, sir. Q. He has been giving fairly satisfactory service since he came back ? A. Yes, sir. I appreciate, doctor, that we have quite a little trouble about those matters. 0 . When we are short-handed we have to do the very best we can, not to take in any violent person? A. Yes, sir. Q. I think in the list of witnesses who are to come into this case Mr. Hinnant’s name was mentioned? A. I understood that. 182 Q. He was also a brother-in-law of Kinard? A. Yes, sir. Q. In the past four or five months I think Hinnant has made application, or more than one application, for employment and been refused? A. I remember he came around before I left in the fall to see if I could not get him some: work. Q. And he was told it was utterly impossible for him to have any further trouble? A. That was about the words I told him. I don't remember the exact words. Q. And he told you he wanted you to recommend him? A. Yes, sir. Q. Last summer did you have all the help you wanted? A. We got in several new attendants. Q. Did you get a full complement of what you needed? A. I think there were one or two or three short, very few short though. Q. Were they any more satisfactory than the average run? A. No, sir, they drop down. Some of the ones that I employed were just as bad as some that were here before or since. They turned out just as bad. They came with high recommendations too. Q. That is to sav, we exercise all reasonable care in selecting these men? A. Yes, sir. Q. You did? A. Yes, sir. Q. You are satisfied with my general attitude when you recom¬ mended the discharge of a nurse, my attitude was to let him go without hesitation? A. Yes, sir. That is right. Q. If you recommended his discharge there was no use of that man appealing to me? A. No, sir. Q. Did I ever put anybody back that you discharged? A. Not that I can remember. Q. Since this investigation began, have you lost any nurses? A. Yes, sir. Q. Aren’t you short several men that left since this investigation began ? Aren’t you shorter on nurses today than when it began ? A. Yes, sir. Q. The very existence of this investigation has driven away some of your nurses? A. Three nurses in the last four days. Q. Able whom you reported to me for incompetence, the only reason you have understood I have allowed him stay was because he was not unkind to the patients? A. I don’t remember ever having a complaint of abuse from him. Q. And there were certain other things about Able that made him useful? A. Yes, sir. i8 3 Q. I think we would rather it would not go out of this committee, but Able is a man who when he knows of any ill treatment of a patient or abuse of him by another nurse. Able will report him. Is that so? A. Yes, sir, or other irregularities. Q. So that, although he was not as bright as some of the other nurses, besides our being short of nurses, there were other reasons for which he should be retained? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever known me to refuse to employ what you would consider to be a good nurse? A. Never. Q. Do you think I am reasonably careful about employing them? A. I think so. Q. We do not employ men who have guarded convicts, nor that class of men? A. Nor railroad men. We have never employed them. That is a class we have fought shy of. Q. Have I ever been indifferent to a complaint or a suggestion you wanted to make to me for the good of the institution, doctor? A. I cannot recollect that you have. Q. I was always glad to have you make suggestions? A. Yes, sir. Q. As to the kind of utensils used in the dining rooms, are not those the same that were in use when I came here? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is, in the rooms where they had china crockery, they have that now? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the other utensils are the same? A. Yes, sir, in the pay rooms china, and in the other rooms tin. Q. Just the same? A. Yes, sir. Q. That kitchen has a capacity of cooking for something like five or six hundred people. How many are we cooking in that kitchen for now ? A. I suppose in a general way, there must be 800, probably 850. Q. Don’t you think some of the defects about the cooking arise from the limited capacity of that kitchen ? A. Certainly, it is probable, very probable. Q. As these new buildings have gone up, they have separate kitchens except the Parker building? A. And the Taylor building. Q. You spoke of our trying to economize, don't you think that economy has been with us really a necessity? A. Well, I was never present in the discussion as to how much money you needed. Q. You remember in a previous examination the charge against the institution was extravagance. Is that not so? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the way Mr. Bunch and I came here. We came here 184 in the face of charges of extravagance against the previous adminis¬ tration, is that not so? A. Yes, sir. Q. And don’t you think that that has had its influence in making us unusually economical? A. No doubt. Q. It is not to be expected that we can maintain the institution of a per capita of $109.00 up to the standard that it was maintained at a per capita of $150.00? A. No, sir. Q. Now, this is a problem that interests all good people who wish to devise ways and means of relieving the institution of its so-called encumbrances, dotards, etc. Has not that experiment been under¬ taken previously? Have not the Regents sought to weed out and send to the poorhouse that class? Was not that done just before I came here? A. After the previous administration went out. Q. The Regents instructed you to send them out? A. Yes, sir, forty or fifty. Q. How many staid out? A. Comparatively few. Q. Ten per cent. ? A. I don’t think so. I could not say that it was that many that staid out. Q. Not as many as ten per cent.? A. I don’t think so. Q. Of the forty or fifty, five or ten, as much as that, doctor? A. I would not be positive, but I hardly think that number staid out. Q. Do you think it was in our present condition to send any patients that you have under your care to the poorhouse, any white patients to the poorhouse? A. I cannot recollect any that I would be sure could be kept there. Q. With all your good experience, doctor, in the charge of these helpless people, would you ever take the responsibility of recom¬ mending to the Legislature of South Carolina the placing of any white woman in any poorhouse or poorhouses that you know of? A. No, sir. Q. Would you, if you were ordered by the Board of Regents to do so, would you want the responsibility of sending any white woman now in this institution to any county poorhouse in South Carolina? A. I would not want that responsibility. Q. If you were ordered bv the Board of Regents to send them to the poorhouse, would you do it? A. Yes, sir. Q. You would ? A. I would try to do so. Q. Would you want the responsibility to rest on you or on the Regents ? A. On the Regents. Q. Did you ever recommend a patient to me to be discharged who was not discharged ? A. I cannot recollect the circumstances. Q. Have we any form of restraint, wrist cuff, belt or camisole, have we any form of restraint now in use that was not in use when I came here? A. No, sir, unless you would call restraining sheet. Q. Restraining sheet is the only thing I can recollect. That is for violent patients to keep them in bed? It is in use in general hospitals as well as asylums? A. Yes, sir. Q. All the several kinds of restraint, the books lay down that there are various kinds of physical restraint, chemical restraint and manual restraint. If a relative of yours was insane which would you rather take to restrain them by this sheet or the camisole or by the muff or by giving them drugs? A. By the muff or other restraint. Q. Physical in preference to other restraints? A. Yes, sir. Q. You would consider the kind of violence that you employ to restrain your patients, you would consider that a kinder method of treatment than the drug? A. Yes, sir, less injurious. Q. How about manual restraint? How about having a patient who is violent held by four attendants in bed? Would you consider a camisole preferable to that ? A. My experience would make me feel that way. Q. So, that there are times when a doctor has got to exercise the best of his judgment and discretion and use physical restraint, this apparatus, is not that so? A. That is so. Q. If you had more than enough nurses, would you still now and then use these physical means of restraint, instead of the manual and chemical ? A. There are cases where I don’t see how they can get along without them. Q. We have had such cases? A. Yes, sir. Q. A non-restraint asylum, the abandonment of these physical means of restraint, that ideal you think it is hard to attain? A. It would be I think with us. Q. The effort to maintain that form of asylums in this country— those who claim that they never use physical restraint, but they use drug restraints. As to treatment, have you ever thought of any line of medical ffeatment on the line of drugs, any line of treatment of that sort, which you think your patients needed, which tire institution did not provide any drugs? A. I cannot recollect an instance. Q. That is to say, whatever drugs you needed you ordered with¬ out any restraint? A. Yes, sir. Q. And has that always been done? A. No restraint. Q. Absolutely none ? A. No, sir. Q. About the nurses quarters ? Did the nurses have any different kind of quarters when I came here than what they have now? A. No, sir. Q. Just the same? A. Yes, sir. In fact, what they call the nurses wards were not in operation when you came. Q. Since you have been here don’t you think there is a tendency for them to use the Asylum as a temporary stepping-stone for some¬ thing better? They come here and stay awhile, and they can get nearly fifty per cent, higher rates on the outside, and they come and stay awhile and then quit? A. That is my belief. Q. A good deal was said about feeding tubes. Is it possible for a small asylum to get along without using feeding tubes, without feeding its patients with a stomach pump for any length of time? A. I don’t see how it could for any length of time. Q. Could we get along here without a stomach tube? A. No, sir. Q. Don't you think reasonable caution is exercised in the use of it ? A. As much as we possibly can do. Q. In spite of all caution, sometimes accidents happen. The head of the tube goes the wrong way? A. Yes, sir. O. Did it ever happen to you? A. Yes, sir. Q. I have had it to happen to me? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever know of a doctor that served long that it did not happen to? Did you ever compare notes with any of them, doctor? A. I don’t believe I have. Q. Very often they are violent and resist, and it is very difficult with the most experienced not at some time to have the tube go the wrong way, and the tube although soft may do some damage? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is a part of the fortunes of war in all asylums? A. Yes, sir. Q. When I was away Mr. Sineath, who is at the head of the mechanical department, did pretty good service here? A. Very— much about like he had before and since. Q. Was any suspicion entertained against him? Were any reports made of his being unduly intimate with a patient? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you investigate it? A. I did. Q. Was there any foundation for it? A. Not that I could ascer¬ tain. Q. Did the Regents investigate it? A. They left it with me. Q. Did you have Dr. Saunders investigate it? A. Yes, sir. i87 Q. What did she report ? A. That there was nothing definite, just a rumor. Q. Did Miss Irwin investigate it? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you were all satisfied there had been no wrongdoing? A. Yes, sir, as far as we were able to find. Q. When I came I also looked into the matter, conferred with you about it? A. Yes, sir. Q. And Dr. Saunders, and we were all satisfied that it was just a piece of spitework on the part of the party working with Sineath who had been discharged ? A. That is the way I looked at it. Q. That is, the Regents, yourself. Dr. Saunders, Miss Irwin and myself all considered that charge? A. Yes, sir. Q. In case of any sudden death in which we have any reason to suspect that the death is not from natural causes is there any hesita¬ tion about notifying the coroner? A. None. Q. Do we get the coroner here as expeditiously as possible? A. Yes, sir. Q. And ask his assistance in determining what is right to do? A. Yes, sir. Q. We always get that assistance? A. Always do. Q. Do you happen to remember the matter of difference before the Board of Regents and I got it referred to the Legislature? A. Something of the circumstances. Q. It came up and was referred to the Legislature ? A. I remem¬ ber it coming up before the Board of Regents, but I don’t remem¬ ber the time. Q. This little paper, “In consideration of the release,” etc. Read. Paper offered in evidence. Q. Is that the form of release we use? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it any advantage to us? A. A great deal of advantage in some cases, in most cases, I may say. Q. Do you remember where we got it? A. From some New York, or some other Northern asylum. Q. New.'York asylum? A. Yes, sir. Q. Dr. Heyman who used it out here sent it to us. This release is granted under the section in the statute referring to release and furlough, and this is our record of that release or furlough? A. As I understand it. Q. The patient going out on furlough or on trial and remain¬ ing and being carried on the books for ninety days, and at the end of ninety days is discharged. If in the meantime the patient 188 has relapsed he may be brought back on the original papers. This document is a protection for the patient, for the county and for us? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the way you look at it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where patients have been taken out and have committed suicide or homicide, patients taken out against our advice, do you recall cases where this has been our record and our protection that we had done all we could to guard the family and the public from the actions of that person ? A. I can recollect at least one case, may be more. I can only recall one now. Q. That is to say, since we have have used that document, you have found it very useful? A. Very useful for us. Q. Last summer when I was away I believe you gave Mr. -—-- a job at the back gate during the regular gatekeeper’s illness, did you not? A. He staid there sometimes, six weeks I believe. Q. Did he get into any trouble? A. No special trouble. He showed nervousness, and got restless about it. Q. When he applied to be given a remunerative job, you would not have thought it advisable to have given him such a place of responsibility? A. No, sir, not in a continuous job. Q. Do you think the institution has ever—the management of the institution has ever discriminated in regard to patients being pay or beneficiary? Does the beneficiary usually get the same treatment as the pay on the wards? Is there any difference at all? A. No, sir, unless it is in the classification on the wards, sir. My preference was pay patients when we can do so. Q. That applies to some of the white men? A. Yes, sir. 0. Does it apply in any other part of the institution that you know of? A. I am not familiar with them now. Q. Not as far as you know? A. No, sir. 0. No discrimination in favor of that class of patients? A. No, sir. Q. Do you observe that the pay patients get any better treatment than the others? A. Not a bit. That is the point I want fully understood, sir. Q. Do you think every effort has been made with the help that you have to destroy the vermin here? A. Yes, sir, I think so, with the help that I have had to do it with. O. There is a disease which has been recognized in the last year and a half, do you think the observations upon it have been of any practical value, our study of pellagra? A. Yes, sir, it has. 189 Q. Have those observations been worth all the time and attention and money that has been expended on them? A. I think so. Q. Do you think too much time could be given to it ? A. No, sir. Q. Don’t you think it is one of the great problems we have before us now ? A. I think it is. It requires all the time that we can give to it. Q. About fire protection, has not the institution in the last four or five years made every effort with the aid of the General Assem¬ bly to give the lives of the patients here and the property of the State of South Carolina every protection that we can? A. Yes, sir. Q. You recollect that a ten-inch pipe starts at Richland, comes from Pickens and makes a complete circuit around to Lumber? A. Yes, sir. Q. That has been done with an annual appropriation of five hundred dollars from the Legislature? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the fire department of Columbia is quite prompt when the asylum box strikes? A. Very prompt. Q. Do you think any great, and serious fire could get under way here except in extremely cold weather, when this institution would not be well protected by the present system of hydrants? A. I can’t see if it it detected in time. Dr. Taylor—How many years has Dr. Babcock been connected with this institution? A. Since 1881—1891. O. How many years has Dr. Babcock had a vacation during that time? A. I cannot recollect his having a vacation of any length of time except last year and the year before. Q. If he did leave the institution and his duties here he was only away two or three days at a time? A. Yes, sir. Q. In seventeen years? A. Yes, sir. Q. For twelve months in the year he has been here on the ground attending to his duties for seventeen years? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you been away every year? A. Yes, sir. Q. All the other employees have regular vacations? A. They can if they wish. Q. They usually wish? A. Yes, sir. Q. And Dr. Babcock has been here? A. Yes, sir. 0 . Didn’t he leave here last year, to your knowledge, at the earnest instance of the Board of Regents? A. I know he was urged to take a trip. O. Didn’t he hesitate about going and at first refused to go? A. 190 He considered the matter and did not decide to go until a few days before he went. Q. Don’t you know he was interviewed and his going insisted upon by the individual members of the Board of Regents? A. Yes, sir. Q. Does not Dr. Babcock assume all the duties voluntarily he is called upon to do as Superintendent of the asylum, doctor? A. Yes, sir. Q. Would you consider the designing of buildings, etc., as duties that he assumes voluntarily? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is not that ordinarily the work of an architect who is paid a pretty good salary for it? A. It is. Q. His assumption of that duty—does not that save the State of South Carolina a good deal of money? A. I should think so. I have not seen the figures. Q. Has not the State of South Carolina and the institution profited no small amount by the fact that he has applied his knowl¬ edge, etc., to the designing of the buildings he has, especially from the knowledge that he has gained there as Superintendent? A. Yes, sir. Q. The institution and the State of South Carolina have profited by devoting their time to it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you feel that this considerable time that he has devoted to other things than what were strictly to be done as his duties, do you feel that it has worked any injustice or injury to any patient in the institution? A. No, sir. Q. Do you feel that he has neglected any of his duties to do it? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what way? A. It calls him away to those things and he cannot get on the wards, overloading is where it comes in. Q. Do you think that works an injustice to the patients? A. It does on my side. Q. If he made more visits he would be better acquainted? A. He would keep in touch and see things as they are. 0 . Don’t you pretty well keep him in touch with things on your wards? A. In a general way. 0 . If you want him you can get him at once? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then he is pretty well in touch ? A. In a general way. There are a great minutiae he would know. If he would go through he would see for himself, he would get a better comprehension, and the impressions would be better. Q. Hasn’t Dr. Babcock been very insistent in his efforts to save the institution money and the State money by being posted and keeping himself posted as to army sales and all sorts of sales in large supplies? A. He has. Q. Didn’t he go out to St. Louis two or three years ago and there buy a great many- goods sold by the United States army, and in another auction did he not go to Savannah, or at least have some representative present in Savannah, and bought a great many goods from the United States army sales that saved the institution hun¬ dreds of dollars? A. He did. Q. Hasn’t it always been his policy to act in every way possible to get supplies for the institution as cheap as possible, in that way especially? A. As far as I am able to judge he has. Mr. Harrison—There is a point in connection with the nurses that Dr. Babcock did not bring out, and I want to bring it out by asking Dr. Thompson a question. In admitting these nurses, doctor, you have rather rigid requirements, haven’t you? I mean in regard to the references you require as to the nurses, a ministerial reference as to good character, do you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. As to the superintendent going off from the institution, and visiting other places. Don’t you think it would be highly beneficial to the officers of an institution for its superintendent and its other officers to go and visit other asylums? A. I think so. Q. And keep in touch with their methods ? A. Yes, sir. Q. To come in contact with the most improved modern methods of the day by visiting other countries and other institutions or asylums would be for the benefit of the institution and for the good of the institution. Don’t you think so, doctor? A. I think so. The Chairman—Have you made any such visits to other institu¬ tions ? A. I have some years ago. Q. How long ago? A. I visited the government asylum last fall when I was in Washington to the tuberculosis conference. In 1903 I visited some of the Northern institutions. I don't think I have been to any since. In fact, I know I have not. I have not since 1903. Mr. Carey—You say three or four nurses left since we began this investigation? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why did they leave? What reason did they give for leaving? A. I suppose they became nervous pending what would take place. One said he had a position. 0 . He was not discharged? A. No, sir. Q. Left of his own accord? A. Yes, sir. 192 Q. As to the condition of your wards, are they crowded? A. Yes, sir, very crowded. Q. Have you got room for any more? A. There may be room for one more. We are very crowded. Q. In a very crowded condition? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many patients have you got under your charge, how many violent patients? A. I have got at least fifteen or twenty violent patients in my department. Q. And those are the ones that you usually restrain? A. Some I have and some I have not, just secluded, a certain amount of restraint. Q. Your policy is to use as little restraint as possible? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that is the mildest? A. Seclusion, yes, sir. That is the mildest kind of all the restraints. Q. When you treat them that way does it have a good effect on the patients after that? A. Yes, sir, in some cases it does. Some never seem to take any notice of the previous treatment. Some¬ times it does have some controlling effect upon them. 0 . Two or three of the witnesses spoke of-being one who ought to have been let out of here. What do you think of that case ? A. - is demented. He is quiet. But we have had him here before, and sent him home and he spent several years. He drinks and then he gets into trouble, and they have to send him back. Q. Is he here now? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think he ought to be here? A. That is one of the cases that we might give a trial, but he will come back sooner or later. Q. How many times has he left and come back? A. Only once since I have been here, but his case—that has been some time back before I came here—he has been an inmate here several times in his life. Q. You would not take him to be a man entitled to an uncondi¬ tional discharge? A. No, sir. 0 . When you grant a discharge—I understand this paper is used when they are out on trial? A. Yes, sir. Q. If they do not return within ninety days, is there anything further done as to that case by the authorities of the institution? A. No, sir. Q. They consider him out? A. Yes, sir. 193 Q. They get no other paper? A. No, sir. Nothing more from the institution. Q. So that after they are out ninety days and do not return you consider them discharged? A. Yes, sir. O. And if they come back after that, do they have to start anew? A. Yes, sir. 0 . And go through all of the forms required as to the first admis¬ sion? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you ever grant in the first instance an unconditional discharge? A. Well, it is not customary now. There are some cases. Occasionally there is a case that we let out without that paper, while we are pretty sure that patient will return in three months. Q. What part do the Board of Regents take as to a discharge of a patient? A. As a general thing, no part, sir. Q. Your applications for discharges are brought before whom, doctor? A. If it is a case where the Superintendent does not like to take the responsibility, he will mention it to the Board of Regents. Q. But the custom is for the superintendent to grant discharges? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that usually on the recommendation of the physician in charge of the ward from which the applicant comes? A. Sometimes it is, and sometimes the family and friends insist on removing him. 0 . You know Mr.-, of Greenville, do you not? A. Yes, sir. 0 . How long has he been in here? A. He came in the fall. It was rather winter, some time in November or December. Q. Was any mistreatment of him ever reported to you ? A. Yes, sir. O. Who reported it? A. Some of the patients. O. Wasn’t it Lewis?. A. No, sir. Q. Was there any misconduct on the part of Lewis towards Mr. -? A. Some remarks. Q. What kind of remarks? A. He asked to be allowed to go to the closet to use his vessel during the night, and Mr. Lewis just said if you have anything to do of that kind use your hand, or something of the kind. 0 . One of the patients reported to you that Lewis told him that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you investigate that matter? A. Yes, sir. O. What did you find as to the truth? A. Mr. Lewis denied it. 13 —A. 194 He did not speak in the pleasantest terms, but he denied making that statement. Q. What was your conclusion as to there being any foundation for Lewis’s conduct? A. I thought his conduct was not altogether just to the patient. Q. What patient reported it? A. I think Mr.-. Q. Did Mr. - make any report himself to you? A. Mr. - spoke as if the nurse had been unkind to him. He did not say in what way. Q. As a result of your investigation you decided in favor of the nurse? A. To this extent, that I did not discharge him, but moved him to another ward. Q. Is he still in the institution? A. He is one of the ones that left the other day, in the last three days. Q. Did he claim to have a better job? A. No. He was one of the ones that did not say what he was going to do. Q. Was he one of the ones that you thought felt nervous about this investigation? A. He left since it began. I suppose that was one of the reasons, or the reason. Q. Was any complaint made to you about the bathing of Mr. -? A. No, sir, not that I can recollect. Since Mr.-has been here he has resisted everything that they attempted to do for him such as shaving, brushing his hair, changing his clothes, he has resisted, and we have had to get several nurses to come, and when he would see several nurses coming he would submit. He has been that way in everything. Bathing might have been mentioned. I cannot recollect it, however. Q. You do not recollect any report about his being bathed in water so hot that it burned him? A. I know I never treated him for any sores or anything of that kind. I do not know of any report about a hot bath being given to him. Q. Is he supposed to be violent? A. Very downhearted, very despondent, thinks everything that is done for him is meant to injure him. 0 . He imagines that? A. Yes, sir, and for that reason we have to force him to everything that is done out of the line of general treat¬ ment of him. Q. This paper that you handed us about the rules. Are you particular about the enforcement of those rules? A. As well as I can. Q. Do you look after that closely? A. No, as I told you this 1 95 morning, there are some of them in the nurses hands. I cannot say positively whether they have them or not. We expect them to take charge of them and become familiar with them, but I cannot say positively that they have. Q. Is there any set of rules promulgated by the Board of Regents ? A. Not recently, to my knowledge. There were some old rules here. I don’t remember whether they have been changed or not. It is just possible that I may be able to find a pamphlet containing the old rules. Q. At your leisure I wish you would look over this and see if they constitute the rules that have been enforced here at the institu¬ tion. Dr. Taylor—I believe you testified when you were asked if you had seen any of the Regents making the tours of inspection on your wards, you testified that you had seen two last summer? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long are you on the wards per day? How long does it take you to make your round in the morning? A. Generally by a quarter of eleven, or eleven, sometimes half-past eleven. Q. When do you go on? A. From a quarter of nine to eleven. Q. From nine to eleven on the wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. Anywhere from a quarter of nine to eleven? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then you are off until what hour in the evening? A. In the neighborhood of four o’clock. 0 . For about two hours? A. From one and a half to two hours. Q. In the meantime would not it be quite possible that Dr. Bab¬ cock or the Regents could come through there, through your wards, without your being aware that he was there at all? A. Yes, sir. Q. You are not always notified when one in authority wants to go through? A. No, if Dr. Babcock or Dr. Saunders wants to go they can do so. Q. Haven’t you known several times of Regents being on your wards and speaking about conditions when you were not present? A. Sometimes, I will admit. 0 . And you have known of their being present? A. Yes, sir. Q. Which you did not mention this morning when you testified? A. I think the question was, did I know or did I see them there. Q. In your presence? A. Yes, sir. Q. You knew of their being their without your being present? A. I cannot recollect whether it was last summer. I know there were instances where they were. 196 Q. They have been there without your knowing it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Frequently? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever had any cases in court growing out of the abuse of patients here? A. No, sir, I cannot recollect any instances. Mr. J. M. Mitchell, white, being duly sworn, testified as fol¬ lows : Mr. Harrison—What is your age, Mr. Mitchell? A. 47. Q. You have been in the service of the institution about how long? A. 24 years. Q. You are called the supervisor of the white male department? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any other duties besides that ? A. I fill the prescrip¬ tions for the institution with the assistance of another man. Q. You are the pharmacist? A. Yes, sir. Q. You have an assistant? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who is he? A. J. W. Austin. Q. What are his duties outside of assisting you? A. He super¬ vises the colored male wards. Q. I would like to ask you to give the Committee an idea of your duties. You understand the question. Just outline your duty on your own wards? A. I get in here between seven and eight o’clock, and the first thing I do is to make out my report. I make that out from the reports brought in by the nurses, make that on the book. I bring that up to the office after I get it ready. There are different little things that come up, and I attend to them. Then I get ready to go through the wards with Dr. Thompson, and he usually starts at nine o’clock. Then I go through the house with Dr. Thompson. I attend to various things as I go through, give the nurses instruc¬ tions, etc., and then when we complete the round, which we gener¬ ally get through with about eleven or half past. O. Eleven or half past? A. And then I fill the prescriptions for the house with the assistance of Mr. Austin for the whole institu¬ tion. Q. That is in the morning? A. That is in the morning. Q. About how long does it take to fill the prescriptions, Mr. Mitchell? A. We usually get through about one o’clock. Some¬ times we do not, but as a general thing we do get through by one o’clock. Q. Then what? A. In the afternoon the medicine is to be pre- i 9 7 pared for the next day, the supply of medicines. Different things have to be made, filling capsules of quinine, etc. Q. What is known as stock medicines, I guess? A. Such things as are prescribed regularly every day, kept in stock all the time. Q. Mr. Mitchell, in that pharmacy, are you alone in there, or are you subject to the visits of other people? Can any one else come in there? A. O, yes, usually two or three nurses. The nurses from the female department bring in the basket, and the nurses from the male department are frequent visitors in there. Q. Do they interfere in any way with your work? A. Yes, sir, at times they do. It is rather confusing at times. Q. Would not that state of affairs tend to cause you to make mistakes in filling a prescription ? A. Naturally it would. Q. What sort of order and arrangement, so far as a well ordered drug store goes ? In what state of order is that kept in your opinion, is it in a state of order or in a state of disorder? A. I would rather not give opinions. I will give you the facts as they are to the best of my knowledge. Q. You cannot help that, Mr. Mitchell? A. Do you consider that evidence, a man’s opinion about things? Q. We would consider your opinion on that subject as evidence in this inquiry. This is not a court of law. This is an inquiry, and you are the pharmacist of the institution, and I would like to ask you to tell us if it is in a state of order or of disorder? A. You mean in what respect ? Q. In respect to the bottles being on the shelves and everything kept clean, and everything like that. Is it possible under the cir¬ cumstances to keep it in a condition of order, Mr. Mitchell? A. Well, if I had the proper help, that is, if I had a man to attend to it, it would be possible. Q. I mean under the circumstances that you are now, that is to say, with the nurses coming in to get the medicines, and you having one man to help you, and I just wanted to know if you could keep it in an orderly condition ? A. No, I am not able to keep it like a regular drug store, and the things cannot be arranged like a regular drug store. In a drug store, you know, they have a regular prescription counter, and the druggist goes and fills his prescription, and he is not interrupted. Q. That is what I wanted ? A. I did not know exactly what you were driving at. I thought you wanted my opinion. I would rather not give opinions if you will excuse me from that. 198 Q. You say you have no regular prescription counter that you can go behind where you will not be interrupted while at work? A. No, sir. Q. What kind of counter have you? A. Just something like a table nearly in the center of the room. Q. Your prescriptions are compounded on that table? A. Yes, sir. Rather it is a counter. Is not a regular table. It has a marble slab on it. Q. Is it possible for other parties besides the druggist and his assistant, to pass behind and around that table, Mr. Mitchell? A. O, yes, sir. Q. Do they do that? A. They do that, yes, sir. Q. While you are filling your prescriptions? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is what you spoke of when you said that the presence of outside parties was liable to cause mistakes? A. Yes, sir, it is confusing, of course, yes, sir. Q. How is the prescription brought, and how are they carried on the wards, etc. ? A. The prescriptions are usually brought in a book, book form, not on regular prescription papers, as a physi¬ cian would prescribe in town today in general practice. Q. It is brought in a book? A. Yes, sir, in a book form as a general thing. Q. They write the formula in that book? A. Yes, sir. Q. And they write the name of the patient in that book also? A. Yes, sir. Q. Those are brought to you each day, the books from the various departments? A. Yes, sir, as a general thing. Q. Who brings you those books? A. Well, in the white female department the nurses or Dr. Saunders brings them, and Dr. Thomp¬ son brings them from the white— Q. Male department? A. He either brings it or sends it to me by the hall servant; when he finishes writing the prescriptions, he either sends or brings them. Q. From the Parker building? A. Dr. Griffin. Q. He brings it? A. He or Mr. Austin. Q. He is the supervisor of that ward? A. Yes, sir. 0. From the negro woman’s building, how do you get that book? A. Well, when that book come it comes in the basket. Q. What is that basket? A. It is made of tin. O. That basket is for sending out medicines? A. Yes, sir. 0. And it is brought by—? A. The hall servant. 199 Q. Are those prescriptions usually made out regularly, that is, according to the regular prescription form? A. From where, the old building? Q. Yes. A. Dr. Babcock makes up the form of prescriptions. Q. How was that done? He is the physician in charge at this building, how is that prescription brought to you? Just describe it as accurately as possible? A. Well, at times, the book, as I said a while ago, comes, and at times Miss Quarles just sends in for what she wants. I don’t know whether the medicine gives out or it is a new prescription. I could not say. Q. She just puts it in the book and sends it in? A. Often comes without it. Q. Not on the book? A. Or on a form, just a loose prescription, or, rather, writing. You could not consider it a prescription. Q. From the white male department, does it come in the shape of a prescription? A. Yes, sir. O. And from the white female department in the same way? A. Yes, sir. Q. And from the Parker building in the same way? A. Yes, sir. O. When you fill the prescriptions, is that book returned to the department with the prescriptions? A. Yes, it goes back with the basket. Q. What copy do you retain in your office of that prescription? A. I do not retain any copy. Q. You retain nothing? A. I take the label and put the name on it, and I can find it in the regular prescription book. Q. Is that prescription copied into a prescription book, Mr. Mitchell? A. No, sir. That would necessitate a great deal of work, and we do not do it. O. I understand that, but you spoke of a regular prescription book? A. That is the book that goes on the ward. It is called the ward prescription book. Q. Then you can turn to the day of the month and find the prescription? A. O, yes, sir; but if the book is destroyed, I could not do it. Q. If destroyed, it would be lost? A. Yes, sir. 0. In giving this medicine, issuing this medicine, is the standard dose used? A. Wha^ do you mean by standard dose? O. For instance, is it customary to mix your medicines in such a way that a tablespoonful or a teaspoonful shall be a dose, whatever it is? A. Yes, si r 200 O. There is a standard then ? A. We have a regular graduated glass to measure it. Is that it? Q. I have seen that method followed where on the bottle, on every bottle, was marked, dose, or tablespoonful. In other words, no matter what the medicines, the dose would be a tablespoonful? A. We have no such arrangement as that. The physician puts at the bottom of the prescription a tablespoonful for a dose, or a tea¬ spoonful for a dose, and I put it on the label on the bottle. Q. I only make that to convey the idea. It may be tablespoonful, one or two or more? A. As the case may be. Q. That is issued as you say along with the bottle? A. Yes, sir. Q. And those bottles are sent out to the various wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. On that bottle is written the name of the patient for whom intended ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is the formula written on that? A. No, sir, only dated. In most cases, not in every case, they have regular standard medicines on the w r ard and from time to time they write out prescriptions, say to get so and so, such and such a medicine as kino. It has several ingredients, but we have several standard medicines that it is under¬ stood what it is. Cholorine and those things have several ingre¬ dients, and it is known what is meant when that name is applied to a medicine. O. That comes in on the prescription book? A. So much cholor¬ ine. If it is not on the ward, the nurses have instructions to get it. Q. I was just going to take up the pharmacy, and I just wanted to get out the method of combining and issuing the medicines. They are sent out in a basket ? A. Sent in a basket. Q. And the book is returned with the medicines? A. Yes, sir. Q. Sent to each ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. You make the rounds with Dr. Thompson? A. I make the rounds in the morning. I do not in the afternoon. Q. In the afternoons you prepare the stock medicines, and do the other work that is necessary? A. Yes, sir. Q. You are, of course, thoroughly familiar with the white male department? A. Yes. I am pretty familiar with it. Q. How many patients have you? A. We have 340 whites. Q. I was asking for an approximation ? A. 340. Q. How many nurses have you on duty today, do you remember, Mr. Mitchell? A. I can tell in a minute, fourteen or fifteen. One 201 or two went on duty this morning. I will have to go out to get the exact number. 0. Are those attendants in your judgment sufficient to attend to those patients? A. You mean quantity? Q. Are there enough of them there to attend to the patients properly? A. As I said a while ago, I would rather not give an opinion. \ Q. That is a question that would naturally come in, you are the supervisor there? A. Yes, but an opinion in a thing like this could not be considered evidence. The Chairman—We want your opinion. A. I will say this. We haven't got the amount we should have here. Q. How many nurses in your department would do the work, and do it properly? A. You are going to force me into an opinion? Q. Certainly. A. Well, we should have at least twenty-four nurses in my department. Q. You mean that would be a minimum, the least number that you should have in your judgment? A. To handle them properly. Q. Mr. Mitchell, are all of your men competent nurses? A. Com¬ petent, sir, in what capacity? Q. In the capacity in which they are employed? A. No, they are not. 0. Are any of them illiterate? A. Yes, sir. 0. Will you tell the Committee here the illiterate nurses? A. Well, there are two on the wards. Q. Who are they? A. One on the eighth. Q. And the other? A. On the first ward. Q. Are there any other nurses on those wards with them? A. On the eighth there is not, on the first there are two of them. O. And on the first? Aren’t medicines issued to that man on the eighth ward ? A. He has only been there for a day or two. I have not filled a prescription for the eighth since he has been there though. O. Do those illiterate nurses ever administer medicines to patients that you know of? A. Well, not to my own knowledge. O. To your own knowledge? A. No, sir. 0. Is is possible that they should? A. Well, it is very probable that they would. O. Very probable that they would? A. Yes, sir. They could answer that easier than I. Q. I understand that. But it is possible they might do so? A. 202 Yes, sir, these medicines are given on the wards, and it is probable that he would give the medicine. Q. Probable that he would give the medicine? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there anybody else on the eighth ward? A. No other nurses. Q. Then, unless he administered it, or went and got some other nurse, they would not be administered? A. No. Q. Could he read the label on the bottle? A. No, sir. Q. He could not? A. No, sir. He can neither read nor write. Q. How does he make his report? A. Well, he has to get some¬ body to make it for him. Q. Have you ever reported that condition to the physician in charge? A. Yes, sir, I have. This man that I am speaking of now is the regular dining room man. Q. What is his name? A. Abbott. Q. What is his character? Is he a pretty good fellow? A. Yes, sir, he is a splendid fellow. Q. A good man? A. A good man, but is illiterate. Of course, he is unfortunate. Q. How about the other party? His name is what? A. His name is Brown. 0. He is on the first ward now? A. Yes, sir. O. As to his ability? A. Well, he can read some. Q. Can he read the label on a bottle, you think, in writing? A. Y ell, if it was written very plainly, I suppose he could read some of it maybe. Q. Does he make out his reports himself? A. Yes, sir. Q. He does? A. He makes out his reports. Q. What kind of man is he? A. Brown is a pretty good man, a very good fellow, so far as I know. Q. Mr. Mitchell, in the white male department are the floors kept clean ? A. They are scoured from time to time. Q. I understand that, but were they kept clean? A. No, not clean. Q. Are the rooms kept clean, the floors? A. Just about like the corridors. They are scoured from time to time. Q. But are not kept clean? A. They are not scoured as often as they ought to be, I guess. I haven’t got the help. Q. Is it possible under the circumstances for you to keep them clean? A. No, sir. Q. It is not possible under the circumstances? A. No, sir. 203 Q. And those circumstances would be what? A. More help. Q. Lack of assistants? A. Yes, sir. Q. The windows, are they washed with regularity? A. No, sir. Q. They are not? A. No, sir. Q. Are they dirty or clean ? A. They are somewhat dirty. Q. The bathrooms and tubs and closets, etc., are they kept clean? A. No, in bad condition. Q. They are in bad condition? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there a disagreeable odor connected with the bath room ? A. From time to time there is. Q. The atmosphere on the wards generally, does it smell well or ill? A. The closets? Q. Generally going through the wards, would the odor be unpleasant? A. That would depend upon circumstances. If a person is not accustomed to it, I guess it would. Q. After you get used to it you do not notice it? A. No, sir. 0. Mr. Mitchell, how about the beds that they sleep on, are they wood or iron? A. Well, sir, some wood and some iron. Q. You have quite a good many patients sleeping on the floor? A. I have several. Q. Have you enough beds to give every man a bed? A. Bed¬ steads or beds? 0. Bedsteads? A. No, I have not. Q. Would you say as many as fifty are sleeping on the floor? A. Well, now, some of those sleeping on the floor cannot sleep on bedsteads, I suppose. Q. I understand. On that subject, do you put a patient on what is known as a sawed off bedstead? A. Yes, sir. Q. They would be used? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is a narrow bed? A. Cots. We have them. We have not got a sufficient number now. Q. Now, Mr. Mitchell, on the seventh ward where you have the violent patients, how many attendants have you on that ward today? A. For several years that ward has been classed with the fourth ward. Q. The fourth ? A. That was always classed with the fourth after the Taylor building was completed. It was classed with-the fourth ward. There are two attendants on that. 0. One on the fourth and one on the seventh? A. Yes, sir. 0. About how many patients occupy those two wards? A. I think there are fifty patients there. I will not be sure. 204 O. I am after an approximation. Now, some of those patients are very destructive, are they not? A. Yes, sir. Q. About what bedding do they get on the seventh ward, Mr. Mitchell? A. Well, they usually have a straw bed, a couple of blankets, from two to three in cold weather. Q. Do they tear them up ? A. O, yes, sir, some of them do. Q. After they tear up that strawbed, do they ever sleep right on the straw? A. Yes, sir. Some you can’t keep a bedtick there. They will jump on it and tear it up as soon as it comes in. Q. Some are in restraint and some are not? A. All of them that tear, do it in restraint. Q. Tear it up anyhow? A. They tear it with theii teeth. 0. Those men are filthy, aren't they, in their habits? A. Most of them are. O. Don’t they get filth all over themselves ? A. O, yes, sir. O. Is it possible for one attendant to keep those men in that ward clean ? A. Not that number—on both wards. O. Is it not possible? A. No, sir, he could not attend to all those men. 0. Is it so that they lay for a good while in their own filth? A. They are neglected to a certain extent. O. Do you think your attendants do the best they can under the circumstances? A. No, not all of them. 0. But that is a very difficult class of patients to handle? A. Yes, it is a hard class to deal with. • O. Hard to control? A. Yes, sir. Q. If you had enough attendants down there, would you think it possible or not to keep them fairly decent? A. Yes, if I had a sufficient force. Q. Now, you say that these conditions that you spoke of, that the floors of the rooms were unclean, is that condition general all over the ward? A. Yes, sir, more or less. 0. How about the beds, are they kept clean at all ? A. You mean the bedclothes? Q. The mattresses, are you able to keep those clean, Mr. Mitchell ? A. Vermin? I want to get it clear what you want. O' Take the question of vermin. Have they bugs on them there? A. Yes, sir, there are bugs on the beds from time to time, sir. O. Is that a pretty general condition throughout the ward, or not? A. More or less, there is some vermin, yes, sir. 205 Q. Have they got head lice in that department? A. Well, they have, yes, from time to time. 0. Any body lice? A. They bring patients to the institution with them. Q. When they bring them to the institution they are received directly on the wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. When a patient would bring in body lice or head lice, bring them in on the ward, would not they spread throughout that ward? A. Naturally transferred from one to another, yes. Q. Is that the way there? A. The instruction is to bathe all new patients, but the instructions are not always carried out. It is in this place like it would be anywhere else. Q. They are not always obeyed? A. No, they are not always carried out. My instructions are to bathe all new patients, but in some instances it is not done. In that way vermin very often get through the wards, sir. 0. As soon as you find it out you take steps to check it? A. As soon as it is brought to my attention. Q. Whose fault is it that the instructions are not carried out? A. Well, that is a sort of a—I have repqrted these things to Dr. Thompson and Dr. Babcock both. 0. That is as far as you can state on the subject? A, I don’t know of any particular instances. I have reported them. 0. To both physicians, you say? A. Yes, sir. The Chairman—Have you any direct control of the nurses? A. No, sir, I have the supervision of them, but I have not the control, or the right of discharging, is that what you mean ? Q. You have no disciplinary control over them, if they do not carry out your orders or requests? A. The only thing I can do is to report them. 0. And when you report them, what is done? A. In some instances the nurse is discharged, and in some he is not. Mr. Harrison—Mr. Mitchell, how about those ward dining rooms? Are they kept clean or not? Are the ward dining rooms kept clean ? A. About as clean as the wards. Q. About the same condition prevails ? A. About the same con¬ dition as the wards. Q. How about serving? A. On the wards? Q. \\ hen they bring it up in the dumbwaiter, you sav there is a serving room for the food, how is that kept? A. Not very clean, could be kept cleaner. 206 Q. Would you say it was dirty? A. Yes, I would say it was dirty. O. Now, take the mattresses, while we are on that subject. You have a great many filthy patients to deal with? A. Yes, sir, on some wards; on some, not many. Q. Those patients have no control over their bodily functions at all? A. Some of them have not. Q. How do you protect your mattresses? A. That is done with a rubber sheet. Q. Is that rubber sheet kept in place? By what method do you keep it in place? Is there any method of keeping it in place? A. Well, no. You can tie it with strings, but that does not keep it there. O. Does it get moved off the mattress? A. O, yes, sir, they are supposed to be turned from one side to another. O. Does the patient ever soil the mattress ? A. O, yes, from time to time he gets the sheet off. A rubber sheet is very difficult to keep on a bed. O. Is that mattress when it is soiled always changed ? A. My instructions are to change them. Q. Are they carried out? A. Not in every case. Q. When those instructions are not carried out, does that patient just lie on that mattress in his own filth in this condition? A. In the soiled condition? ' Q. Yes. A. Not if I find it out. Q. Is it ever done? Do you ever find those conditions existing when making inspections? A. Yes, sir. I have found beds soiled, that is, with urine, especially. The Chairman—You consider the nurses to blame if you find those cases? A. Well, yes. it is, more or less negligence, because they could change them for feeble patients. Q. Can you in any way through discipline prevent that negligence? A. No, I have never thought of enforcing it. Mr. Harrison—Have you an office? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that in direct touch with the wards? A. It is in the same building. It is near the white male department. 0. You are familiar with the kitchen, are you not? You go in there? A. Yes, sir, I go there occasionally. O. Who has it in charge? Who is the chief executive in the kitchen? A. Mr. Earle has charge of the kitchen. 207 Q. What white assistant has he? A. Mr. Rabon is there with him. Q. How many hired employees has he, do you know ? A. No. I could not give the exact number. I do not remember the number. Q. They have a hired cook in that kitchen? A. O, yes, sir, they have a hired cook. Q. Have they any other hired help besides the cook? A. They have pati'ents there. Q. What is the general condition? Is the kitchen kept clean? A. Well, the kitchen is fairly clean. It will compare with the rest of the building. Q. I don’t mean that. Is it clean? A. No, of course, it is not clean. Q. How about the employees in the kitchen? Are they clean? A. You mean in their dress in cooking? Q. Dress. A. No, they are not so clean as they might be. Q. Would you say the patients employed in the kitchen are clean and their clothing clean? A. Well, of course, at times it is not and at times it is. The patient has to change once a week. Q. Where do those patients sleep? A. You mean white or col¬ ored ? Q. Some white? A. Some white and some colored. Q. I was speaking particularly of the colored at that time ? A. I could not tell about the colored patients. That is in Mr.— Q. They sleep in the Parker building? A. In the colored depart¬ ment. I can tell about the whites—in the white male wards. Q. How often are those men bathed that w'ork in the kitchen? A. They are supposed to do it once a week. Q. Is that really done? A. I could not answer that question. I cannot follow those things in detail. Q. Their clothing you say is changed only once a week? A. They are supposed to be. I do not know really whether it is done or not. Q. What kind of aprons do they wear ? Do they ever wear crocus sacks? A. Yes, sir. 0. Are those sacks they wear in front of them kept clean, Mr. Mitchell? A. Well, no, I would not consider the sacks clean. That is what they are worn for, to keep the dirt from the clothes. 0. The dirt, therefore, is on the sacks? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do they handle the food? A. O, yes, sir, they handle the food. Q. Is there a door to that kitchen that opens directly on the rear 208 hallway down there, that opens out on the yard behind there? A. Well, there is a door in the end of the kitchen and one on the side. Q. There is a door giving access to the store room, is there not, that goes out on the yard ? A. That is at the end of the kitchen. Q. Is that door kept closed or open? A. I could not answer that cjuestion. 0. Have you ever seen patients in the kitchen that did not belong there, negro patients? A. Now, I am not very familiar with the negro patients, sir. Q. You could not tell whether they were employed or unemployed ? A. No, sir. Q. Have you ever seen a white patient there that did not work there ? A. I have seen them sent down to get things. Q. They were not employed in the kitchen? A. Working in the mess hall and went to the kitchen for things. Q. You were speaking on the subject of the mess hall, that is located, as I understand, in the rear part of this building, the main mess hall? A. Yes, sir. Q. What kind of place is it—clean ? A. Well, it is not as clean as it might be. Q. Are the tables clean ? A. The tables are scoured once a week. 0. Is there any cloth on those tables? A. No, none at all. Q. Now, when the food is brought from the kitchen, who dishes it out to the patients? A. Patients do that. They do the principal part of it. Q. Is it put in a plate or on the table? A. What do you mean? The food ? Q. Yes. A. In the mess hall it is put on the plates. Q. The bread ? A. Bread is put on the table, and the hominy and vegetables and soups were put on the plates. Q. The vegetables, etc., are put on the plates? A. Yes, sir. O. And the bread on the table? A. Yes, sir. Q. What do they drink? A. Coffee for breakfast, water for dinner and tea for supper. Q. Is milk served in that dining room? A. No, not unless they have a surplus. I am speaking of the mess hall now. Q. You have a dining room of your own? A. Yes, sir. O. How do you find the food? A. Well, the food is not very palatable. 0. Do you eat there regularly? A. Well, I eat breakfast at home. 209 Q. How about dinner ? A. I eat dinner here. Q. You eat dinner here? A. Yes, sir, in my dining room. Q. And your supper? A. I seldom ever eat supper. The Chairman—Do you eat the asylum fare when you eat here? A. No, I have my dinner sent from home. Q. You don’t eat the institution’s food at all? A. No. Q. Why not? A. Well, I don’t find it very palatable. Q. Do you consider it unclean? A. The method of preparation is not as clean as it is in a private family. Q. Do you think it is wholesome? A. Well, it is not for me, but I am a dyspeptic, and different from a great many people. Q. How long since you have eaten here? A. I think it has been some three or four years since I ate here regularly. I do not remem¬ ber the date exactly. Q. Now, Mr. Mitchell, who is in charge of the mess hall here? A. At present Mr. Baxter. 0. Is he a competent man? A. No, sir, I don’t consider him such. 0. Do you consider the man in charge of the kitchen a compe- tant man, a capable man ? A. He is capable of working. Mr. Earle does not know anything about cooking. I don’t think he ever „ had any training in that line. 0. What was his business? A. In the navy. 0. What occupation in the navy? A. I don’t know. Q. You don’t consider him a competent cook? A. No. Mr. Earle does not know anything about cooking. He is a good worker. Q. How about his assistant? A. He has not been here very long. I don’t know much about him. Q. Is there any matron or man in charge of that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who are they responsible to—the kitchen employees, Mr. Mitchell? A. Who are they responsible to? 0. Yes, sir. Can you go down there and give directions, Mr. Mitchell? A. No. I don’t do that. Q. You have no right to do that? A. No. Q. Have you the right to give directions in the dining room, the mess hall? A. Yes, sir. Q. You can give directions, can you? Can you enforce it and see that it is carried out? A. Tt depends upon who is in there. Q. In what way is that? A. It depends upon who is in charge of the dining room. Q. If Mr. Baxter was in charge of the dining room, could you have it carried out? A. Well, no, not altogether. 14—A. 210 Q. Why is that? A. The man just has not the ability, that is all. Q. Do you ever go on the fifth ward when they are feeding patients there? When dinner is corning in? A. O, yes, sir. Q. What is the method of feeding the patients, that is the hos¬ pital? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where you have sick, feeble, weak, infirm, what is the method when they are bed-ridden, but able to eat? A. That is usually attended to by the patients. Q. The patients attend to that? A. Yes, sir. Q. No nurses to do that? A. You don't mean those who refuse food ? Q. No. A. That is carried on by one of the nurses with the assistance of the patients, and the other nurses stay in the dining room. Q. You have some of those patients in the fifth ward on pallets on the floor? A. Yes, sir, a few there. Q. When his dinner is taken to him what is it put on in case he is able to eat it himself? A. They have little tables to put the waiters on. Q. Do they use those? A. In some instances if a man is on the floor they just set the waiter on the bed or on the floor. Q. Do they always use a waiter? A. No, they haven’t got a waiter for every patient. Q. When they eat out of a plate, then, they sit it on the bed? Do they ever sit it on the floor? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is his pot ever sitting on the floor alongside of it? A. Not far away. The Chairman—Are these utensils sometimes filthy and smell? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison—The pot he is speaking of? A. Yes, sir, I under¬ stand. The Chairman—Is that often the case? A. Yes, sir, pretty often. Mr. Harrison—Mr. Mitchell, the question came up this morning in regard to a plot that the asylum owned at the Elmwood Ceme¬ tery and what happened there several years ago with reference to burying the dead, do you recollect that the bones of the dead there were thrown up in burying other people? A. I recollect that the bones were thrown up? Q. Yes. A. O, yes, sir. Q. How did that occur, Mr. Mitchell? A. Well, they just 211 simply dug the graves into the same old graves where they had been buried before. Q. Did you see that yourself ? A. Yes, I visited the plot. That is when that was the case, sir. Q. Was that in one grave or more than one? A. Did that happen more than one time? Q. Yes. A. That was the only time that I saw it. Q. Was it just one grave that was in that condition or several of them had been dug down into? A. O, they went over the whole ground, I think. This matter had been reported to me from time to time. Q. Who made those reports to you ? A. The nurses. Q. Will you give the names of those nurses? A. I can give the names of some of them. Q. Which are those that you can think of? A. They are not all here now. Q. It does not matter. I just want them. A. J. M. Raffle was one, G. W. Brown, E. J. Jones. That is all I can recollect now who ■complained to me. Q. Mr. Mitchell, how did you come to be out there and see this state of affairs? A. I was sent. Q. You were sent? A. Yes, sir. Q. By whom? A. Dr. Thompson. Q. What did Dr. Thompson instruct you to do? A. He told me to go up there and see that the bones were buried. There was a party to be buried who had some relatives in town, and he did not want the bones exposed there. He knew what was going on as well as I did and he told me to go and take charge of the corpse and have those bones buried. Q. Did you bury the bones? A. Well, I instructed the grave¬ digger to do it, but he said that he had buried the largest of them, and that the small ones were mixed up through the dirt, and he could not do it on that account. Q. Are you aware of what the intention was in doing that work? A. In that manner? O. Yes, that it was to dig down between graves? A. That was the intention of it, but they found that there was not space between the two graves to dig down for another one, and consequently they dug into both graves, and Mr. Fugle said it was better to just dig down into the old grave and put the body in there and put the con¬ tents back. 212 Q. You say they buried over the old grave in that manner, Mr. Mitchell ? A. That was my understanding. As I said a while ago, I only visited the place once. The Chairman—How long did that go on? A. I can’t give the date. I will say a year. Q. Those complaints were continuing through that year, w T ere they? A. I made three complaints. Q. During the year? A. Yes, sir, during the time it was going on. It might have been going on longer than a year. I cannot be positive about the time. Q. What are they doing now about that matter? A. They are burying at the Old Soldiers’ Home now. Q. On the asylum property ? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison—Did you report that matter to the authorities? A. I reported it to Dr. Babcock when -it was started. Q. What did the doctor tell you? A. He told me it was the best he could do. Q. He told you it was the best he could do? A. Yes, sir. Q. I want to ask about the fire protection in this institution. In case of fire what instructions have you from the authorities? Are any instructions given you as to your course in case of fire? A. No, sir. Q. Are any instructions given to the men on the wards? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Is there any fire drill of the employees? A. No, sir. Q. Are there hose on the wards? I believe you have hose on the wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where are they kept? A. Just hung around a peg, some of them. 0. Kept on pegs or on a table ? A. Kept in a box in the corridor. Q. That is what I was after getting. How often are they tested ? A. Well, I cannot answer that question. I have never tested them except when they were first put up. It did not fit. The joint did not fit together. Q. You don’t know whether they would work now or not? A. No, I have not tested them. 0. Have you any patent chemical extinguishers? A. They have some little glass bottles. They are nothing like up to where the new ones are. Q. How long have they been there? A. O, I suppose twenty years. 213 Q. You have never tested one of those, have you? A. No. The intention of that was just in case of a small fire to throw it against the wall and burst it. Q. Have you any patent fire extinguishers, these big fellows, you stand up and turn up and turn on the fire? A. No, sir. Q. Have you any chemical extinguishers of any sort? A. Two in the center building. 0. Can you work them? A. I have not tried. It does not look like it would would work now. Q. What are their condition ? A. The chemicals have oozed between the fittings and cannot be worked. They work with a pump. I have not tested them. Q. What would be the alarm of fire here, what fire alarm? A. Some of the fellows would holler out fire. Q. That is the only definite fire alarm you have? A. On the wards ? Q. Yes. A. There is no arrangement for that that I know of. Q. Is there any telephone communication, any method of com¬ munication except by a message to the executive building or to the employees? A. Not at this time. Q. You have a watchman, have you not, one or two night watch¬ men ? A. In the male department ? Q. Yes. A. I have two. Q. What time do they go on duty? A. Well, they go on at nine o’clock. Q. Do they make regular rounds? A. They are supposed to. Q. You mean to say you don’t know? A. No, I don’t know. They are supposed to make the rounds every hour. O. Have you a watchman’s clock? A. We have a clock. Q. Is it in operation? A. No. Q. Why not? A. That is a question I cannot answer. The Chairman—Would it be advisable to have that in operation? A. Yes, sir. Q. You can then know whether the watchman was on duty? A. Tell whether he made the rounds. O. Have you reason to believe they do not perform their duty? A. Well, I have reports coming to me from time to time that they have been asleep. Q. Did you go into those reports, investigate them? A. Yes, sir, in a general way, I did. 0. W T ere they true or not? A. Yes, sir. 214 Q. They were true? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you complain of them? A. Yes, sir. O. To whom? A. Dr. Babcock. Q. Was anything done about it? A. He did have the clock fixed up and the wires fixed, but he never did order a dial. 0. Was there improvement as far as those particular watchmen were concerned ? A. No. Mr. Harrison—You have been in this institution for quite a good many years? You say you are perfectly familiar with this wing of the building? A. Yes, sir, I am familiar with it. Q. And you know it necessarily pretty well? A. Yes, sir. Q. In case of a fire beyond control in this building, would it be possible that a panic among the patients would ensue? A. That would depend on where the fire occurred. Q. I understand, but a fire close to that, beyond control, would they fall into a panic or not? A. That is going back to an opinion. Q. That is what I am asking for? A. I don’t know. We have had fires here and did not have any panic. 0. You did not have any? A. No. Q. You had one? A. And the patients were all gotten off from this wing without any trouble at all, but the Taylor building was unoccupied. Q. There were no patients in that building? Would those condi¬ tions have prevailed if there had been patients in the building? A. They might not. Q. In case of a fire beyond control, say this first ward was to get on fire with the watchman asleep, the first floor, and a fire would break out pretty generally through that section of the building, what escape and what means of escape have you for the men on the upper wards? A. Nothing but a stairway, and a stairway on the back side. Q. Does that come through the first ward? A. There is a stair¬ way out of the first ward, and there is one in the sixth ward, and one in the back. Q. Does the stairway go through the first ward before it goes out ? A. It goes down through the first ward. Q. In case of fire that would be untenable ? A. But you could go back through the sixth. 0. There is an exit through the sixth, is there, an exit this way into the main building? A. No. The doors are locked. There is a stair on each tier. 215 Q. Is it at the end of these tiers or at the middle? A. The first section here is on the end. Q. Goes from the fifth to the sixth? A. Second near the end. Q. Then from the seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth? A. In the center. Q. Then the probable fire protection in the third section would be better than the probable fire protection in the first two sections, you think? A. That would depend on where the fire occurred. Of course, if the fire occurred on the first you could go through to the fourth Q. Would your nurses do it with the patients when they carry them out? What is the plan of action mapped out, M. Mitchell? A. There is no plan. Q. None whatever? A. They would know to turn them out in the yard. 0. There is no method of informing them when the fire is near in what direction to convey the patients, no plan of that sort? A. No general plan. Q. Is it possible that a fire might break out, presuming that the watchman was negligent in his duty—is possible that a fire might break out and get beyond control before discovered? A. O, yes, sir. Q. Are the patients in this institution ever bathed more than one in the same water? A. I cannot answer that question. 0. You do not know whether they are or not? A. I don’t know. Q. About what is your water supply from that department, in hot water? A. You mean at a time? Q. Yes. A. It is a continuous flow, you understand from the reservoir, from the city supply. Q. I am speaking of hot water? A. At a time? Q. Yes. A. I suppose eighty gallons would be the capacity. Q. How many gallons woidd it take to fill a tub? A. I would say thirty. Q. Of hot water? A. Well, that would depend on how hot the water was. You mean for bath purposes? Q. Under average conditions? A. Sometimes have to put on the hot water for the whole bath. If the water is real hot they mix it with cold water. Q. Under the conditions that prevail here? A. About half and half, but after two or three tubs the hot water is exhausted. 2l6 Q. How much will a tub hold? A. A tub will hold I guess 75 gallons, but it is not necessary to fill it. Q. Thirty gallons under ordinary conditions would be enough? A. Fifty I would say. Q. Fifty gallons of boiling water? A. Yes, sir, not boiling, but as warm as we usually get it out of the boiler. Q. As you usually get it out of the boiler? A. Yes, sir. Q. It will take about fifteen gallons to the patient? A. I am just guessing at that. I have never measured it. Q. Now, how many patients have you ever known to be bathed in the same water? What are the orders? A. The instructions are to bathe all except some few very feeble ones. There are very few too feeble to bathe. Q. Isn’t it necessary to bathe those? A. Yes, sir. O. Several times a week? A. Two or three times a day. Q. I believe the ordej- has been issued never to bathe a patient in cold water? A. Not in the winter. I issued that order myself. Q. Is it possible to bathe all those patients in warm water? A. Not at one time. Q. Not on one day? No, sir. Q. What is your bathing day? A. We have Tuesday for the top floor, Wednesday for the second floor, and Thursday for the bottom floor. We have it done by sections in order to get through with it at all. 0. Have you enough hot water to bathe all the patients in, one section in a day? A. No. 0. If you don’t bathe some of them two in the same water what is done? A. They will not get any bath at all unless they are bathed in cold water. They have to bathe certain days and certain days to carry the clothes to the laundry. In some sections the nurses have to go to the kitchen on the day that the washing is done, or they have to go down on the yard. Q. You say, then, it is either necessary to bathe several in the same water or not bathe them? A. More than one. Q. In the same water? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they ever have a patient named-in the white male department, that you remember? A. Yes, sir. O. Do you recollect the instance when - was assaulted? A. I remember on one occasion he was assaulted? Q. Will you describe that just as nearly as possible to the Com¬ mittee? A.-was on the second ward and the nurse told 217 him to get on his own ward, and he refused to do it, and the nurse tried to put him on his own ward, and the assault succeeded. T here were a couple of nurses. Q. Who were they? A. One Wheeler and the other Johnson, and Wheeler threw the man down and Johnson assaulted him. Q. In what manner did he assault him? A. He either knocked him or stamped him in the face with his shoe. Q. How did you find out that that was the case? A. A patient reported it to me. Q. Did you examine into the matter? A. I did. Q. Was-statement true? A. It was, according to the nurse’s statement. He corroborated his statement. Q. Which nurse? A. The nurse that did the deed was Johnson. Q. He said he stamped him in his face? A. He acknowledged it. Q. Did you report that? A. Yes, sir. The Chairman—What reason or excuse did he give? A. He said his temper got the best of him. He lost his temper. Q. Did you report that to Dr. Thompson? A. I did. Q. What action did he take in the matter? A. To the best of my recollection Dr. Thompson was going away the next day. It hap¬ pened about midday and I reported it in the afternoon. Doctor asked me to remind Dr. Babcock about the matter the next morning when he went through, as he was going away, and that he would forget it. Q. Did you report it to Dr. Babcock? A. I did. Q. When ? A. I can’t give you the date. Q. Relatively, did you report it the next day ? A. The next morn¬ ing when the doctor came through. 0. He came through ? A. And made the rounds for Dr. Thomp¬ son in his absence. Q. What action did Dr. Babcock take? A. He did not take any. Q. Did he examine the patient? A. No, to the best of my recol¬ lection he did not. Q. What did he tell you? A. He told me to dress the wound. Q. Did he tell you anything else in connection with it at all ? A. No, that is all I remember. Q. All you remember? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where was the patient at that time? A. He was out on the second ward veranda. Q. This was when you reported the matter to Dr. Babcock? A. Yes, sir. 218 Q. Did he go out and look at him ? A. He did not then. Q. How about these nurses? What became of Wheeler? A. Wheeler resigned. Q. Immediately? A. On account of his health. Q. Immediately following this? A. No. Q. Some time later? A. Yes, sir. Q. What became of Johnson? A. Johnson resigned. Q. What time? A. I don’t know. That has been some time ago. I don’t know the time. The Chairman—How long after the occurrence ? A. I don’t know, several months. Mr. Harrison—It is hard to fix things in your mind like that? A. Yes, sir. 0. Mr. Mitchell, have you ever been to the dairy? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever been there while the milking was going on? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who does the milking? A. The milking is carried on now principally bv the patients, colored patients. Q. In milking the cows they stood in the stalls, did they not? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are those stalls kept reasonably clean. A. Well, I don’t know much about dairying. Q. Does it seem to you that it was kept as clean as it could be under the circumstances? A. With the force they have got. Q. You think it is kept about as clean? A. You can’t expect to keep things clean with a patient’s work. Q. In the alleyways between those, I believe there is a concrete cement opening between each of those stalls? Is there not a floor, a cement floor, and the cows stand back to back at all times? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that is quite a wide expanse, almost as wide as this? A. Yes, sir, pretty wide. I don’t know the width. Q. Was it kept clean ? A. It was fairly clean. It had been swept ofif and sanded, in fairly good condition. Q. As to the actual milking, you say you saw that done, did you not? A. Yes, I have been there when they were milking. Q. Do they wash the udders of the cows before they milk them? A. I did not see them start. That would be done at the beginning. 0. You did not see it done? A. No. 0. Did the patients wash their hands before they milked the cows ? A. I would not answer that question. 219 Q. You did not see them do it? A. No. Q. How about those patients’ dress that did the milking, was it clean or unclean? A. Well, the clothes were fairly clean, con¬ sidering that they were colored patients. Q. You have stated that the milking was done by patients, have you not? A. The principal part of it, maybe one or two hired men. The gateman is hired and I think he helps to milk, and the man who fires the engine, but the principal work is done by the patients. Q. Are they dressed up in any different clothes from what they wear around the place every day? A. No. Q. The same clothing that they wear? A. Practically speaking, it takes them all the time over at the dairy. Q. Do you know of any change of clothes provided for them while they are actually engaged in handling the milk at the dairy? A. Not that I know of. Q. What duties besides the actual milking do they perform ? Do they handle the manure? A. I think they have hands for feeding, hands for milking, and some for handling the manure. Q. Do they have separate men ? A. I have been told so. Q. That is the policy? A. Yes, sir. Q. Special men to handle the ensilage, the manure and the milk? A. Yes, sir. Q. And, therefore, the patient that did the milking would not be in a soiled condition? A. Well, the clothing would not. Patients are like children. Today you can make them change and tomorrow they are all soiled up, and that is the way with these colored patients. You make them change today, and tomorrow his clothes may be soiled. They did not take care of their clothes. They are more like children than anybody that I know of. Q. They are liable to become filthy? A. Yes, sir, if they are not changed every day. Q. Then you would have to watch them pretty closely? A. Yes, sir, I guess you would. Adjourned until tomorrow at io o’clock. V 220 Columbia, S. C., 7 May, 1909 . Pursuant to adjournment the Commission met this day at the State Hospital for the Insane at 10 o’clock in the forenoon. Present: The members of the Commission. The Chairman presiding. Mr. Mitchell, recalled: Mr. Harrison—I wanted to ask you a few questions about the fire in the Taylor building. You said the Taylor building was burned? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it occupied at the time? A. It was not. Q. At what time was it built? A. You mean what time finished? Q. Yes, sir, completed. A. Well, I don't remember exactly. It was some time about April or May. Q. April or May? A. Yes, sir, that building was completed about April or May. Q. What time was it occupied? A. Well, it was not occupied until after it was burned and rebuilt. Q. What time w r as it burned? What time of the year? A. It was burned some time after Christmas, either January or February. Q. The following January or February? A. After it was com¬ pleted in the spring. Q. Why was it not occupied in the interval? A. I cannot answer that question. Q. When it was burned, how did it catch on fire, how did it origi¬ nate? A. That is unknown so far as I know. Q. Was there any suspicion as to the cause? A. There were some theories, but I do not know. My idea was that it caught from the furnace. Q. In the Taylor building? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it in operation? A. Yes, sir, there was fire in the build¬ ing. Q. Why was it in operation with the building unoccupied, Mr. Mitchell? A. That is something I had never thought about. I cannot answer that question. Q. Was the building gutted? A. Yes. Q. If there had been inmates in the building and they had not been removed, would they have been burned? A. O, yes, if they had not been gotten out. Q. How far was the fire under way before it was discovered, 221 Mr. Mitchell? A. It must have had a considerable start, because the night watchman detected it. Q. The night watchman detected it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Mr. Mitchell, was it the duty of the night watchman to go into that building? A. Well, I don’t remember about that, Mr. Harrison. I don’t remember. I cannot answer that question. Q. Have you an outside watchman here? A. We have at this time, yes. Q. Did you have one at that time? A. The gateman makes the rounds. Q. He makes the rounds? A. Yes, sir. He goes through the basement. The gateman was on duty at that time, yes, sir. They have a night watchman at the front gate. Q. Does he stay on duty only at night ? A. Only at night. They have a watchman at the front gate in the day time, and change at nine o’clock at night. Q. Have you any means of knowing that that man makes his rounds ? A. Not at present. Q. Not at present? A. No. Q. How long since you had means of knowing that he made his rounds? A. Several years. I don’t know. I would say eight or ten years. Q. Do you know whether he is always faithful on duty or not, Mr. Mitchell? A. He is on duty, but whether he always makes his rounds or not I don’t know. Dr. Sawyer—You don’t know whether he was asleep or not? A. No, sir. Mr. Bates—Mr. Mitchell, did you ever assist in giving nourish¬ ment by a tube? A. O, yes, sir. Q. Do you remember any instance of injury to a patient from the effects of it ? A. No, not when I assisted. You mean to say of my own present knowledge? Q. Yes. A. No, sir. Q. You never assisted? A. No bad results from any. Q. Did you ever know of a patient dying from the effects of it in .the institution? A. I have heard of it. Q. You have heard of it? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long ago has that been? A. Well, I could not say. It has been within the last two years, I should say. Q. Within the last two years? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you remember the name ? A. I cannot remember the 222 name. Dr. Thompson can give you that information. He tubed the patient himself. That is hearsay, now. Q. Tell what Dr. Thompson told you? A. The patient did not live very long after he tubed it. He did not say that was the direct cause though, but the patient was very feeble when he tubed him. He had been refusing food. Mr. Hardin—You testified, Mr. Mitchell, that meals were served patients in an enema? A. Yes, sir. Q. For instance, food was passed by the bowels? A. The question was put to me if I was on that ward, and I said I supposed I was. Q. Are you not superintendent of the wards? A. I am, sir. Q. Did you make any effort to correct that? A. I did not know anything about it in this particular case, but I have made efforts to correct things, and I have failed. Q. In this particular instance did you try to correct that? It was under your supervision, wasn’t it your duty to see that it was stopped? A. Yes, I suppose it was. Q. Did you do it? A. No. Mr. Sawyer—Mr. Mitchell, is not it the usual custom to feed patients when they have a form of paralysis of the throat with these tubes ? A. A form of paralysis ? Q. Isn’t it customary in hospitals of this kind and other kinds to feed patients—? A. O, yes, it is customary. Q. Have you ever had any practical experience in feeding them that way? A. O, yes, sir. Q. Do you see how it could hurt a patient? A. You should exercise a great deal of care in inserting the tube. Q. You certainly would have to be very violent and very rough to do a patient sufficient harm to kill him? A. Yes, sir, I would think so. Q. To your knowledge it is the custom to feed patients with a tube both in this class of institutions and in hospitals where the condition demands it? A. It has always been customary ever since I have been here, sir. Mr. Carey—Mr. Mitchell, I understand that you have charge of the pharmacy and are supervisor over the male white wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the extent of your authority? A. Yes, sir. Q. You have no authority over the kitchen? A. Yes, sir. Q. Nor the dairy? A. No, sir. Q. Nor anything else except those two things? A. No, sir. 223 Q. Has anything ever gone wrong in the pharmacy department, or have you made mistakes in filling prescriptions? A. Yes, sir, I have made mistakes. Q. What was the cause of it? A. if might have been my care¬ lessness, and it might have been that I was interrupted. I could not tell. That is something that I could not answer. Q. You are a practical pharmacist? A. Not a graduate; I have taken lectures. Q. Have you ever asked for any prescription in here that you did not get? A. Ask for any prescriptions? Q. Anything more than is in there in the way of a proper place to prepare your prescriptions? A. No. I have never made any sug¬ gestions. Q. Haven’t you got all you asked for? A. With the exception of one time. I did not have a room, and I thought I ought to have that as I had previously had it. 0. Have you ever made a mistake in combining a prescription that carried any bad results to any patient? A. Not to my knowl¬ edge. Q. Since you have been in there? A. No, sir. Q. Are you careful not to mistake such mistakes? A. I try to be careful. Q. Who sends these prescriptions to your department? A. They are sent. Q. The doctors of the different departments? A. Yes, sir. They write up the prescriptions in a short way and send in the books in the medical baskets. Q. And you fill them? A. Yes, sir. Q. As supervisor, isn’t it your duty to see that those wards are kept clean? A. Of course it is my duty, but as I stated yesterday, as Senator Bates said just now, it is my duty, but I can’t be there. I know that the thing exists. Q. Isn’t it your duty as supervisor of those wards to see that they are kept clean ? A. It is. That is my duty. Q. You have authority to require that? A. I have authority to require that. Q. The nurses have to obey you? A. They don’t always do it. Q. If they do not, what is your plain duty? A. To report them. Q. Do you? A. I do. Q. How many? A. I have reported several. I never keep any talley. 224 Q. Give us the names of any you did report? A. I can. Q. Who? A. J. K. Sims is one man I reported because he refused to obey orders. « Q. Who did you report him to? A. Dr. Babcock. Q. When was that? A. I can't give the dates. Q. About how long ago? A. I would say it has been less than five years. Q. What became of the case? A. The man left here. Q. How long after that before he left here? A. I did not keep any note of it. Q. About ? A. He was not discharged. Q. How long did he stay? A. He staid some time afterwards. Q. Why did he leave ? A. Because he wanted to, I suppose. Q. Did you ask that he be discharged? A. No, I did not. I never asked him to discharge a man since I have been here. Q. Who else did you report? A. As I said I have reported several. Some have been discharged and some have not been dis¬ charged. Q. Give us the names of some you reported. Didn’t you think it would be just to Dr. Babcock and Dr. Thompson? A. Yes, sir, I was just studying. Shuler was another man I reported. Q. Who did you make your report to? A. Dr. Babcock. Q. When ? A. It has been less than ten years; some time ago. 0. What did you report him for? A. I reported him for talk¬ ing insultingly to me, and refusing to do what I told him to do. Q. What became of that case? A. My recollection is that Shuler quit. 0. At that time? A. No, not at that time. Q. How long after? A. It was some time afterwards. Q. How long afterwards? A. I could not tell you that. I don’t remember. I did not take any note of anything, and it is impossi¬ ble for me to give the dates. Q. You have gone ahead in your general statements and made grave charges against others in the institution with you, and I want you to bring out specific instances so that they can explain them if they can. If you can’t give the names of all, all I ask is for you to say if you can give them? A. Shuler and Petrie and Simpson are the men I reported to the doctor. Q. When did you report Simpson ? A. It has been less than five years since I reported him. 225 Q. Who did you report him to? A. 1 just said I reported him to Dr. Babcock. Q. I understood Shuler? A. And Simpson. Q. Shuler at the same time? A. No. These things happened at different times. Q. What became of Simpson ? A. Simpson left the institution. I don’t know what became of him. Q. How long after that ? A. I don’t know. Q. Was he discharged, or did he leave of his own accord? A. Of his own accord. Q. Did you ever make any other reports? A. Other than those three? Q. Yes. A. Nurses who disobeyed orders? Q. Yes. A. I don’t remember of any just now. Q. No others except those three? A. No, sir. Q. Did you ever make any report to Dr. Babcock as to the cook in the kitchen being incompetent? A. No, that was not my business. Q. Did you ever make any report to him that the food that came into the wards was not well cooked ? A. I made reports to that effect to Dr. Thompson. Q. How frequently did you make them to Dr. Thompson ? A. I made them pretty frequently. Q. About how often ? A. Whenever the circumstances requried it. Q. What would Dr. Thompson do? A. I can’t answer that question. Q. Did he pay any attention to your reports? A. Well, he would listen to it. Q. Did he say he would do anything to correct it? A. I don’t remember as to that. Q. Did you ever make a report either to Dr. Thompson or to Dr. Babcock that they refused to look into and remedy if they could? A. That is more giving of opinions. Q. I don’t think so. You know what happened when you went to the men ? A. That places me in a very awkward condition. Q. I don’t think it places you in any more than you are. You have testified in a general way, and I am asking specifically. If there is any want of harmony between you and these men we want to know it. A. I reported these things to Dr. Thompson because it is more convenient. I am with him more. Dr. Babcock is more or less in another department. 15—A. 226 Q. What was Dr. Thompson’s custom when you reported these things? A. He would try to look into it. He has gone to the kitchen from time to time. I did not follow the matter up. I don’t know whether he went to Dr. Babcock about these things. Q. You never told us what you said to him and he to you? A. Is that what you are after? Q. Yes. A. I did not understand your question. Dr. Thompson told me he had tried to remedy the matter and could not do it. Q. Did you ever make a report that he did not try to remedy? A. That he did not try to remedy? Q. That he did not tell you he would try to remedy? A. He did not tell me he would not try. I don’t remember about that. Q. Yours and Dr. Thompson’s relations were entirely pleasant, were they not? A. Yes, as far as I remember. Q. I understood you to say yesterday or this morning that you go through the wards with him? A. Yes, sir, I go through the wards with him every morning. Q. You observe everything that he would observe? A. I am not right by his side all the time. He might see things I did not. Q. If you saw anything wrong would you point it out to him? A. Yes, sir. Q. What would he do? A. I have made reports and did not hear anything about it. Q. If. you saw they continued you would make further complaint, would you not, if you saw things going wrong? A. Yes, I continued to complain. If you complain about anything for a number of times and there is no change, of course, you get careless about it. Q. You admit carelessness on your part? A. Yes, sir. I do. I am obliged to do it. Q. You have described the conditions in the white wards. Where in your judgment does the blame lie for the bad condition of things you have described? A. The cause of it is the shortness of nurses and the want of discipline. Q. Did you regard any of you, any of the authorities, as guilty of negligence, as being the cause of the want of sufficient help? A. I will have to take a part of that on myself. I have tried to better things, and I could not do it because I did not have the help. Q. Was that the primary cause—the shortness of help? A. I said I thought it was and the want of discipline. Q. How much more help do you think you ought to have than you have got in there? A. That is an opinion again. 227 Q. You are an expert. We will take your opinion. We want you to tell us how we can better the conditions, how many nurses do you think there ought to be? A. We have formerly had 21 here. Q. I understood you to say you had about fifteen ? A. About that, more or less. Q. How many do you think you ought to have to keep it fairly neat? A. I could keep it in very fair condition with 20 . Q. Do you believe you could do it with less? A. No, we can’t do it. Q. The character of your patients and the number of them would require 24 ? A. I think so. Q. Have you any nurse in there you think ought to be discharged ? A. We have some there that are not competent. Q. Who are they? A. We went over that question, didn’t we? Q. No, sir, not a name given? A. They are incompetent. You mean those? Q. Yes, sir. A. I gave the names of some who could not read and write, sir. Q. Give them again? A. If you require it I will give them. I don’t want to be obstinate. Q. Is there anybody in there that you think ought to be out? A. Mr. John Abbott and Mr. C. G. Brown, and Mr. Baxter. He is an unfortunate man. Q. Any other that you can think of? A. Yes, Owen Able. He is incompetent. Q. Can you give us the names of any others? A. That is all I can think of now. Q. Why do you think they ought not to be in here? Why are they incompetent? A. Mr. Abbott is the dining room man. He is not fit for ward duty. He will do very w r ell. Q. Why? A. He can't read and write, and he cannot carry on the work as it should be done, and he cannot make out his morning report, or give the medicines. He does not even know how to read the medicine glass. Q. How about the others? A. Baxter is incompetent. His judgment is weak. Q. Have you ever complained to any of the authorities about these men that are incompetent? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who? A. I complained to Dr. Babcock when he hired Mr. Baxter. 228 Q. How long has that been ? A. I don’t remember. The records will show that. Q. Did you complain of any of the other three? A. I have com¬ plained to Dr. Thompson and Dr. Babcock too. Q. As to whom? A. Able. Q. And the others? A. The other man, I complained of him in this way. They both knew it. Both were acquainted with the circumstances. Last fall when they started up the courses, Mr. Brown said he didn’t care to take the course, and I said, why, and he said he could not write. He could scarcely read and write and if they forced it on him he would quit. Q. Are there any attendants in there that ought to be discharged by reason of cruelty to patients? Have you anybody here now that indulges in the mistreatment of patients? A. Not to my knowledge in the service now. Q. When that has occurred in the past, were they discharged? A. Some of them. Q. The cases were always looked into after the charge was made to Dr. Thompson ? A. As a general thing. Q. If Dr. Thompson found that they were in the wrong, what was done? A. They were dismissed. Q. If he found the charge well founded, Dr. Thompson reported that he had been dismissed? A. That was the custom. Q. Have you ever known Dr. Thompson to report a case that was not discharged since you have been here, to recommend a discharge that was not adopted? A. Doctor told me that he did recommend a discharge. You can get that from his testimony. Q. That was not for cruelty? A. No, sir, incompetence. Q. Don't you think you could have gotten the bugs out of there by a heroic effort? A. We could have got shed of the bugs by neglecting something else. Q. What do you assign as the reason for allowing bugs in here, want of help? A. Want of help. Many a time the nurses have to go upon the yard. Q. I want the causes. I want to help those people, and we want to know how to help them? A. I want to give you to the best of my knowledge. It is a big thing, going into this thing. Q. With those twenty-four nurses, do you think that you could put those wards and keep them in practically a good condition, in as good condition as the female wards over here? A. I don’t know that I could, because men have not the tact for housekeeping that 229 women have. I have never seen the male department in as good condition as the female since I have been here. Q. You could approximately? A. Could compare with them. Q. The floor and the walls could be kept clean? A. Yes, sir, the floor and the walls could be kept cleaner than they are. Q. Who is at fault? Is it the Legislature’s or your own? A. I will leave you to decide that. Q. Probably you can tell us something about the means. You know something about the means. You have been on these wards. You have servants that ought to keep things clean? A. I have no servants at all. Q. The ward has them? A. Yes, sir. We have no servants. We have nothing but the nurses. Q. Do you know what the nurses are paid? A. Yes, sir. Q. How much? A. $26 to $31. Q. Dollars? A. Yes, sir. Q. A month? A. Yes, sir, approximately. Q. Has there been a raise in the pay during the last few years? A. Yes, sir. There have been some two or three raises. Q. You had difficulty in getting suitable nurses? A. I am not in position to answer that question. I don’t do any hiring whatever. Q. You know something about labor conditions around Columbia? A. I don’t know very much about that. Q. It is an unpleasant matter to handle insane people as a nurse? A. Yes, sir. Q. And it requires men of peculiar fitness? A. Yes, sir. Q. Don’t you find that a great many that you do find are not fitted for the work, and do not remain? A. Yes, sir, they come and go. Q. It is hard to keep the nurses and especially the kind you want ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any suggestions to make of your own account by which the condition of these people can be bettered? What do you need? That has not been touched upon. What do you need that you haven’t got? A. We need more help. Q. That is the main thing? A. We ought to have scrubbers on our side just as they have on the female side. Q. Would that come in the 24? A. That would be in addition. Q. How many scrubbers? A. We could make out with two scrubbers. 230 Q. You think you ought to have two scrubbers in addition to the 24 nurses? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can't you whitewash the walls? Haven’t you help for that? A. Not at present. If we whitewash the walls, something else would be neglected. Q. How long since the walls were whitewashed? A. It has been several years. I don’t remember. Q. Is the reason it has not been done the want of help to do it? A. Yes, sir. I wanted to have the wards whitewashed about six years ago, and Dr. Thompson told me to wait until we could get the plastering done. The plastering had fallen off in places and he told me to wait until we could get the plastering done and then we could whitewash. It was customary to do the whitewashing in the spring, and it was left off from time to time and it was never done. Q. You haven’t as many beds as you need, bedsteads? A. No, we have not. Q. You need more? A. Yes* sir. Q. How many more do you need? A. Well, I don’t know. I haven’t counted them. Q. Bed covering? A. We have plenty. Q. Have you mattresses enough? A. Yes, sir, we have a supply of mattresses. Q. Is the laundry work satisfactory to the patients, the washing when it comes in ? A. Sometimes it comes in pretty bad. Q. What is the cause of that ? A. The laundry is operated prin¬ cipally or in a large measure by the patients, and from time to time the laundering is not very good. Q. Did you ever make complaint about the clothes of those in your wards about the washing? A. I have complained of the laundry, yes, sir. Q. Did you ever complain to Dr. Thompson or Dr. Babcock? A. I have talked with Dr. Thompson. I don’t know that I ever men¬ tioned it to Dr. Babcock. Q. Complained that part of it was unsatisfactory? A. Yes, sir, so far as I know. Of course, there will be things coming in that could be better, but as a general thing it is satisfactory. Q. Did you ever complain that the cook was incompetent? A. Not to my recollection. Q. Did you ever complain that the server in the mess hall was incompetent? A. I did. 231 Q. To whom? A. Well; I complained to Dr. Thompson. I have asked him three times to let me have that man back. Q. To let you have him back? A. To let me have him back, to send this man on the wards again. Q. Is a capable man in charge of the mess? A. Baxter is in charge of it. Abbott was formerly there. Mr. Abbott was the man I told you could not read. Q. The man in charge of the mess hall now, is he incompetent? A. Yes, sir. Q. You reported it? A. Yes, sir. Q. To whom? A. Well, this man that is in charge of the mess hall was formerly employed here and he left the institution and he reapplied for work. Dr. Thompson sent for me and asked me about this man, and I told him. I says, “That man was not any account when he was here before,” but he hired him, and I had to make out with him. Q. What does his incompetence consist of in the mess hall ? A. The man hasn’t got any judgment. Q. He has judgment enough to serve the meals? A. Judgment enough to sit down and let it be done, yes, sir. Q. Is that his work? A. No, sir, it is not his work. Q. What is it? A. To see that the dishes are clean, the tables and the floor clean, that is, everything clean. Q. You say he does not do that? A. Yes, sir, he doesn’t do it properly. Q. He is under you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why don’t you make him do it? A. How can you make a man do it when you have no authority to do it? Q. What would he say when you would tell him? A. He is a man that does not say very much of anything. Q. Did he refuse? A. He did not refuse. Q. He just did not do it? A. Just go and neglect it. He would do it in a way. Q. Did you make complaint to Dr. Thompson that he was doing that? A. I made complaint to Dr. Thompson that he was not satisfactory. 0 . \\ hat did the doctor sav was the matter ? A. Dr. Thompson ? Q. Yes. A. He would not do anything in it. He said he would not be here so very long. Q. How long would he say? A. Not over two months. Q. You have no authority over the dairy? A. No, sir. 232 Q. You stated yesterday that you went out there and saw it? A. I was passing along. Q. Have you seen that done frequently? A. Which is that? Q. Milking. A. No, not frequently, but I have occasionally been in the dairy. Q. Do you think that the patients who are doing that milking are fit to do it? A. The parties haven’t very much sense. Q. Are they clean or filthy? A. The milkers? Q. Yes. Is your knowledge sufficient to enable you to testify? A. As I said yesterday, 1 know very little about dairy work. That is out of my line. Q. I have confined my questions to your line for that reason, but you said you saw it? A. I also stated that I knew very little about dairy work, too. Q. Have you any suggestions to offer as to what you saw going on? A. The dress could be changed. Their clothing could be changed oftener. Q. Their clothing? A. Yes, sir. Q. Haven’t those you saw milking there sense enought to milk now? A. Their hired help? Q. That would be better, of course? A. I think the work is carried on fairly well with the patients. Q. As well as it could be carried on? A. Yes, sir; you can’t expect much out of patients. Q. Is that true of the employees throughout the institution so far as you know, where the patients are employed? A. Yes, sir, that has a great deal to do with it. Q. Furthermore, there is a great scarcity of male help? A. Yes, sir. Q. Attendants? A. Yes, sir. Q. You don’t know the cause of that scarcity? A. Well, Dr. Babcock told me he could not get nurses to suit him. Q. He told you he had great difficulty in selecting nurses? A. He said he had plenty of applicants, but he could not get nurses to suit him. Q. Did he ever discuss the question of being hampered for funds for putting in additional nurses? A. Yes, sir. Q. Don’t you know that was the reason for not getting more help? A. I don’t know that he assigned that as a reason, but that matter was mentioned. Q. By you or by him? A. By him. 233 Q. Did you ever see anything on the part of Dr. Babcock to indicate that he condoned cruelty to patients here in this institution ? A. I am uneducated, and I would rather you would be a little plainer. Q. The word condoned? A. I don’t exactly understand that word. Q. Have you ever seen anything on his part looking like he would sanction anything of that kind, allow it to go on if he knew it? A. No, I have never seen anything that led me to believe that he favored such a thing as that. Q. Don’t you know he was against such a thing as that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Don’t you know he and one of the nurses here had a difficulty about that very thing? A. Yes, sir, he told me he did. Q. Who was the nurse ? A. The nurse's name was Kinard. Q. Did you see anything in Dr. Thompson to indicate that he would allow such a thing, tolerate such a thing in here, Mr. Mitchell? A. No, sir. Q. Was it his custom to investigate those things or cases when they were reported to him? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it possible to deal with three or four hundred insane persons without occasional assaults and fusses arising amongst patients and nurses; in your judgment, do you think it is possible to run an institution without assault cases of that kind occurring? A. No, it will come up from time to time. Q. Have you ever visited other hospitals? A. Yes, sir. * Q. Do you think conditions here along that line compare favora¬ bly with those you went to ? A. The white male department does not. Q. In what respect? A. It is not kept as clean. Q. I was discussing the question of cruelty? A. I don’t know about that. I just visited, went in them and walked around. Q. What institutions did you visit? A. The State asylum of Maryland. Q. You could not expect this to be as fine as that? A. No. Q. Did you visit any other? A. Only the State asylum. Some time previous to that T visited the government hospital in Wash¬ ington. Mount Hope in Maryland. Q. Were you here under Dr. Grififin? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is the institution kept in as good condition now as then? A. The white male department is not. 234 Q. The rest? A. I am not in position to answer that question. 0 . So far as you know? A. So far as I know it is. Q. It seems that these complaints came out of yours and Dr. Thompson's white male wards? A. Yes. Q. Do you feel like you are doing your duty in there? How do you account for these complaints? A. I try to do my duty. As I stated a while ago. I don't get co-operation every time. It is very natural to become careless somewhat. Q. You get the co-operation of Dr. Thompson? A. Pretty well, yes, sir. Q. And of the patients, haven’t you? A. Yes, sir. Q. They all swear so. You are both held in the highest respect. What we want to do is to lay our fingers right on the weak spot. You have got the co-operation of the doctor and the nurses, so far as they are concerned, haven’t you? A. Well, not in every respect. I think I stated a while ago that some of the nurses did not obey my instructions. Q. You want to get rid of them? A. I do. O. I want you to tell us a little more about that -case you referred to? A. I went over the ground yesterday. I don’t want to be misled. That is one of the cases I reported that he did not take any action in. Q. When did that happen ? I don't think it was brought out yes¬ terday? A. It was brought up yesterday. Q. The time—when did it happen? A. That happened either in 1904 or 1905. I cannot be positive. Q. I understood you to say some patient assaulted-? A. Yes. some nurse. Q. Who was the nurse? A. Johnson. Q. What became of Johnson? A. My recollection is that John¬ son quit. Q. How long after that? A. Several months. Q. Did you report that matter to Dr. Thompson? A. I did. Q. What did the doctor say? A. Well, the doctor was going away the next day. I reported the matter in the afternoon, and he told me he was going away the next day, and for me to be sure to call Dr. Babcock's attention to it. Q. Do you know where he was going? A. He did not tell me. Q. Did you call the doctor’s attention to it? A. Yes, sir, I reported it the next morning. 2 35 Q. What did the doctor say? A. I don’t remember all that was said about it. I remember he told me to dress the man’s face. Q. Anything else? A. I don’t think. There was not very much conversation about it. We were going through the wards. There was not very much discussion, I think, about it. Q. Was the fellow hurt much? A. Yes, sir, he was pretty smartly gashed in his face. Q. Did Dr. Thompson take it up when he came back ? A. The doctor asked me when he came back. He asked me the question one day, and I told him I had reported it. Q. Did Dr. Thompson look into it after he came back? A. I can’t answer that. Q. Was the case ever investigated? A. I investigated it as far as I could. The nurse admitted it to me. Q. Admitted that it was unjustifiable? A. Yes, he told me that he lost control of his temper, and the other nurse interfered with him and stopped him. He would have gone further with the violence. Q. Do you know whether either Dr. Babcock or Dr. Thompson made a thorough investigation of that case or not, as it is their custom to do? A. 1 don’t know. I reported it to them and dis¬ missed it from my mind. Q. You don’t know what they did? A. No, sir. Q. I believe you described the difficulty to us on yesterday? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Sawyer—If he had been a sane man, could he have attended to his business after this assault? A. It was just a flesh wound. There were no stitches taken, more of a bruise than anything else. Q. What was he hit with? A. Shoe heels. That was the way the matter was reported to me. Q. The wound was a kind of bruise or a cut? A. More of a bruise. M. Carey—That grave yard again. When was that that you saw those bones out there thrown up ? A. That is where you trouble me as to dates again. Q. About how long? A. It has been within ten years. 0 . At that time the patients who died here were buried in that cemetery, Elmwood? A. Yes, sir. Q. Since that time they have a cemetery of their own right here on the asylum property? A. Yes, sir. Q. In which they bury? A. Yes, sir. 236 Q. How long have they been burying there in the new cemetery? A. Out here? Q. Yes. A. Well, I don’t remember. Q. About how long? A. They have been burying here over a year. Q. The conditions have been changed, and the patients who die are decently interred? A. So far as I know. Q. You have heard no such complaints since they have had their own cemetery? A. No, sir. Q. Where are the colored patients buried? A. Over here (indi¬ cating.) Q. They are decently buried? A. As far as I know. 0 . Do you know any more than those specific instances you mentioned of digging into the graves ? A. The matter was reported to me. I only saw one. 0 . That was all you ever saw? A. Yes, sir. Q. As I understood, that was in a crowded condition, was it not? A. It had been used up. Q. Practically used up? A. Yes, sir. Q. And in burying others the space was too small? A. The graves were dug too close together. Q. In digging a new grave between two others, that was how it happened? A. That was the original plan. Q. That is the only way it could happen? A. That was the doctor’s instructions as to burying the dead. Q. Between the two? A. Between two graves. Q. That was the only way you could bury them? A. It wasn’t the only way they did. Q. How ? A. They dug right down into the same grave. Q. Was it the doctor’s instructions to dig between the graves? A. That was his instruction. Q. Who was in fault in digging into any other grave ? A. There was not space enough, so they finally dug down into the same grave. Q. Who dug these graves? A. Different parties dug the graves. More than two dug the graves, had the contract. Q. Who actually dug the graves? A. A colored man, a hired man. Q. Do you know his name? A. No, I don’t know his name. Q. Is he here now? A. That part of the business is let by con¬ tract. 237 Q. Who lets out the contract? A. The authorities of the asylum. Q. The Board of Regents? A. I suppose so. Q. Did the Board of Regents have charge of that plat in the cemetery there? A. I could not answer that question. Q. You don’t know that. When they found it was in that crowded condition they provided a cemetery on the institution s own property, when they found that they did not have room there at all ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the board provided this place? A. I don't know that of my own personal knowledge. Q. That is your understanding of it? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Bates—How long have you been filling prescriptions for this institution? A. For twenty years, I think. Q. Where did you study pharmacy? A. I only studied phar¬ macy—the most I studied was here, except that I took a course by mail. Q. A correspondence school? A. Yes, in Chicago. Q. Did you graduate? A. No, sir, I did not. Mr. Sawyer—Mr. Mitchell, don’t you know that a good many men working in reputable drug stores and filling prescriptions are not druggists, that are not pharmacy graduates in this State? A. Yes, sir, I see drug clerks working. Q. Filling prescriptions? A. I don't know about filling prescrip¬ tions. I see them selling. Q. You never saw a drug clerk filling a prescription that was not a graduate in pharmacy? You don’t know of any such within your own knowledge? A. That is something I never inquire into. Q. You learned that business right here, how to put up these prescriptions? A. Yes, sir. Q. You can read a prescription all right? A. If it is written in the original. Q. I am talking about medical prescriptions? A. Yes, sir. Q. You understand the business, don’t you? A. Yes, sir, I can compound any ordinary prescription. In any complication I always refer it to the physician. Q. You have never poisoned anybody? A. Not to my knowledge. The Chairman—Do you receive any salary as pharmacist ? A. Well, my pay is $55.00 a month. Q. How long has it been $65.00? A. $55.00. Well, I got a raise about two years ago, I think it was. Q. Before that ? A. Before that it was $40.00. 238 Q. When were you made pharmacist? A. As I said a while ago, I have been filling these prescriptions for twenty years. 0 . Were you given any extra pay when you took charge of that work? A. Yes. The former custom was for the sick nurse on each side to deliver the medicines and help the physicians fill the prescriptions, and carry the medicines through, and administer them, but when Dr. Babcock came he changed that. I filled the prescrip¬ tions for the institution, and Dr. Corbett before Dr. Babcock came here. Q. What position did you then hold? A. The position was then called sick nurse. Q. You were filling the prescriptions as a sick nurse? A. I assisted Dr. Corbett in his department. I had nothing to do in there. 0 . What did they pay you then? A. $25.00. Q. Then you were made supervisor of the white male ward? A. Yes, sir, and they gave me the whole of the institution as to filling prescriptions. Q. What change did they make in your salary when that occurred ? A. That has been a good while ago. I don’t know whether I can make a correct statement along that line or not. I think I was given a raise. They raised it to $40.00 and gave me a house. Q. Was it at that time that you had your course in a correspond¬ ence school? A. After that time. Q. Sortly after? A. Yes, sir. Q. You say you did not report the cook as unsatisfactory? You did not consider it your duty to report the cook, was that it? A. I did not consider it was such. Q. That is not in your line ? A. That is not in my department. Q. Who does the mending for the patients on the wards? A. Mending of what? 0 . Clothes. A. There is very little done. Q. There is a good deal needed? A. Yes, sir. Q. How is that little done? A. We have an old gentleman over there that does a little, sews on buttons, sews up rips, and things like that. Q. Does he attend to it properly? A. O, no, it is not done properly at all. Q. Have you reported that matter? A. O, yes, I have talked that matter over with Dr. Babcock several times. Q. For how long? A. That has been going of for years. 239 Q. How many years, about? A. That occurred when they had smallpox here. That matter was stopped. They did not send the clothes to the sewing room as long as they had smallpox. Q. When was that? A. I don’t remember the dates. Q. How long? A. It has been several years. Q. Five? A. It has been longer than that. I was studying. It has been eight or ten years, I think, since we have had an outbreak of smallpox. Q. Has it been going on since then? A. From time to time. They did a little on the yard—the female patients. Q. How long since that has been stopped? A. Six years. Q. Since that time this old man has done all that has been done? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have the patients been badly neglected for want of more mending? A. O, yes, I have had to throw away a lot of things because I could not have them mended. Q. That has resulted in waste? A. Yes, sir. Q. You would make that recommendation again now, would you? A. Yes, sir. Q. What would be necessary along that line? A. It would be necessary to have a sewing room, and somebody to conduct it. Q. Do you think one man would be able to attend to it? A. No. Q. How many would it take? A. I don’t know very much about that, but I don’t think one man would be able to do the sewing that would be needed in the white male department. Q. It would take one man with an assistant or two assistants? A. I will have to decline giving an opinion, because I don’t know anything about it practically speaking. Q. Who can give an opinion? A. Some of the sewing room women. Mrs. Garrison could probably tell you. It is something I had never thought anything about. Q. Speaking of this matter of burial, did I understand you to say yesterday that you had complained about that at least three times? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that that was going on for at least a year? A. That went on for a year or more. Q. Did any other officials of the institution complain about it? A. I could not tell you about that, and other officials, I did not know of it. Q. Of the institution? A. I could not tell you. 240 Q. To whom did you make your complaint? A. I made my complaint to Dr. Babcock direct. Q. Didn’t the other officials tell you that they had also told Dr. Babcock about it? A. The matter was talked over by me and Dr. Thompson. I don’t remember that he told me that he had made any complaint about it. Q. It was generally talked about over the institution? A. Yes, sir, among the nurses it was. The nurses would complain to me after they would come back from the cemetery. Q. It was a matter of general protest? A. Yes, sir. Q. For a year? A. Yes, at different times. Q. Did you in your report state that the instructions of the superintendent could not be or were not carried out as to the digging of graves, and that they were burying in the old graves? A. Yes, sir, I made that statement to Dr. Babcock that they had buried in the same old grave. Q. Who was the contractor that had that in hand? A. Mr. McCormick had it when it started. Q. Who had it at the time we are speaking of? A. At the time I reported it? Q. Yes. A. Mr. McCormick. Q. Do you know who is the man that had it in direct charge, Mr. Mitchell? A. Mr. McCormick. Q. Yes? A. He has a grave digger, a regular grave digger. Q. Who is he? A. A colored man. Q. You don’t know his name? A. No, sir. Q. As I understood your answer before to some of the questions you admit that you are to blame to some extent in your work here? A. Yes, I am obliged to admit that a man after he sees that he can’t do anything is mighty apt to get careless. Q. And you have tried to remedy these conditions a good many times? A. I did the best I could, yes.. Q. The circumstances of which you think you are a victim are want of help and want of co-operation with those in authority over you? A. Yes, to a certain extent. Q. You say that you have repeatedly asked for more help, have you? A. Yes, sir, from time to time. Q. For many years? A. I have not said very much about that lately, because I learned it did not do any good, so I left it off. Q. When did you begin ? A. Several years ago, six or seven years ago. I used to complain very often about it. 241 Q. You say from seven years ago until you had complained so frequently that you found it did not do any good, and then you quit? A. Yes, sir, I left it off. I would talk to Dr. Thompson about it, about the condition of the wards and the scarcity of the nurses, and I also told Dr. Babcock, and he told me he could not get the nurses. Q. Did you also complain about the condition, the physical con¬ dition, not whitewashed and plastered? A. Yes, sir. Q. When did you complain about that? A. I have complained about that for several years. The last complaintl made to Dr. Babcock about that was this, Dr. Babcock was last spring a year ago, I think it was— Q. Did you complain very frequently? A. Well, I did not com¬ plain to him about the whitewashing, about the shortage of the nurses very frequently. Q. You complained to him about the condition, the physical condition, of the wards numbers of times in the last six years? A. I have made that complaint to Dr. Thompson. Q. Aren’t those conditions such that the Board of Regents or the Superintendent in casually walking through the wards would see? A. That is a matter of opinion. Q. I want your opinion? A. Do you consider that evidence? Q. I want your opinion as to the conditions in your wards, are they such that anyone making a casual investigation could see that these general repairs were very necessary? A. If they looked they would, if they looked. Q. I gather from your replies, then, that you have gotten to feel rather helpless about getting anything done after a number of years of complaint? A. Yes. It was disheartening. Q. Is that the carelessness of which you spoke? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did this feeling of apathy and helplessness extend to the nurses under you ? A. I will ask you to be more explicit. Q. This feeling that complaints did not result in any improve¬ ment, and consequently a letting down of the tone of the discipline extend to the nurses under you ? A. Will you repeat that again ? Q. I am trying to find out whether the feeling that you had that complaints were of no use had anything to do with the lack of dis¬ cipline of those under you that you spoke of? A. They got care¬ less first, and I tried to enforce it, and I could not do it. Q. ^ on say there is a lack of discipline among the attendants on these wards? A. Yes, sir. 16 —A. 242 Q. Is that due to lack of co-operation, this lack of discipline? A. As I stated a while ago, I could not enforce my instructions, and I appealed to the Superintendent, and it did not improve the matter in every case. Q. Did you consider this assault on patient Belcher an aggra¬ vated case? A. I considered it an unfortunate affair. Q. Did the fact that nothing was done about the matter result in any letting down of the discipline of your nurses? A. I would say it had a tendency to do so. Q. Is it a general fault among your nurses that you haven’t much authority over them? A. I never heard them express themselves, but their actions would tend that way. Q. You feel that you are more or less helpless to control them? A. Yes, sir. 0 . You say with 24 nurses you would have enough to keep your wards in good condition ? A. Fairly good condition. Q. Would there have to be some change in the system of con¬ trol of the nurses by you? A. O, yes, sir. Q. You need more authority as well as more nurses? A. Yes, sir. Q. You want more co-operation as well as more nurses, is that it? A. That is the idea. Q. You feel a lack of system? A. Yes, sir. Q. You say that you have reported the matter of these troubles to Dr. Babcock? A. Yes, sir. Q. Yon don’t know what he did ? A. I could not say in every case. In some cases he told me what he did and in some he did not. Q. It was your duty to report to him, and after you reported to Dr. Babcock your duty was at an end? A. Yes, sir, and I never questioned whether they did or did not. Q. Do you feel reasonably certain that after the developments of the last few weeks, that more than one patient has been bathed frequently in the same water? A. I have not looked into that matter. Q. You have not looked into it? A. No, sir, I have not looked into it. Q. Can any restraints be used in your department without your permission or the permission of Dr. Thompson? A. They do do it. Q. Is it against orders? A. It is the rule of the house. I always report the matter when they restrain a man and let the physician decide when the restraint is to be removed. 243 Q. Is that done? A. Not in every case. Q. Is it frequently not observed? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why is not that rule carried out? A. For the want of dis¬ cipline, I suppose. Q. The system seems to have become lax in that respect too? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever tried to carry it out? A. Yes, sir. Q. To whom do the nurses report? A. Dr. Thompson. Q. Not to you? A. They can report to me and I to Dr. Thomp¬ son. It was customary at one time to make an entry in the books, but that thing was lost sight of. Q. Dropped into disuse? A. Yes, just changed hands. That was when Dr. Hymen was here. Q. How long ago was that? A. Ten or twelve years, I reckon. Q. Since that has there been any record or reports of restraints? A. No, sir. Q. Since then restraints have often been used without the author¬ ity of the physician as required by the rules? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is the permission of the physician usually asked for and given ? A. As a general thing, yes. Q. Frequently it is not? A. Frequently. Mr. Hardin—Does that salary include in filling prescriptions and also for your work on the wards? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison—What report is made as to the dietary of the patient? A. There is not any report to my knowledge. Q. How would you know what your patient would have to eat? A. You mean sick? Q. Take it generally? A. I generally see it. I generally see what comes on the table. Q. In each ward? A. No, not in each ward. I visit the mess hall every day, and I visit the wards, the dining rooms on the wards occasionally. Q. Then you don’t know what the dietary is on all the wards, do you. A. No. O. Is there any written report made as to what the dietary there is? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Does the attending physician. Dr. Thompson, ever go into the mess hall ? A. He comes there occasionally. Q. Does he ever go on the wards when the meals are being served? A. I could not answer that question. I don’t remember ever striking up with him on the wards. I have been in there from 244 time to time. We would walk through, but I never paid any special attention to the time. Q. Does the Superintendent ever go into the main mess hall while the meals are going on? A. Never, sir. Q. In the ward dining rooms while the meals are being served? A. While meals are being served? Q. Yes, sir. A. Never to my knowledge. Q. Have any of the Board of Regents ever been into the main mess hall while meals were being served to your knowledge, Mr. Mitchell? A. Yes, I saw Dr. Ray down there once. Q. Any others ? A. In the mess hall ? 0 . Alain mess hall? A. No, Dr. Ray is the only one I have ever seen in there, sir. Q. When did you see Dr. Ray there? A. I think it has been within the last two years. Q. In the last two years? A. I think so. Q. Are you in there pretty often ? A. In the mess hall ? Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, sir, I go there every day. Sometimes I go there twice a day. Q. It is probable though that the Superintendent or the Regents might be there and you not see them there or hear them? A. Not at meal times. I don't think. They may go between times. Q. At meal times is what I am speaking of? A. No, sir. Q. You think if they went there during meal times you would see them? A. I would see them or hear of it. Q. How about the Regents in the ward dining rooms. Have you ever known them to go there? A. To examine the grub? Q. Yes, sir. A. No, sir. Q. Would you see or hear of that? A. I think so. Q. You have on various occasions taken members of the Board of Regents through the different wards, have you not, Air. Alitchell? A. Never taken them through the wards. I have carried them on the second ward to see friends and acquaintances that lived in their neighborhood inquiring about them. 0 . On one occasion you made a tour of inspection with two mem¬ bers of this Commission, did you not, through the white male department? A. Yes, sir. 0 . Have you ever accompanied a member of the Board of Regents on such an inspection? A. No, sir. 0 . Have you ever accompanied the Superintendent on such an inspection? A. Yes, sir. 245 Q. When was that? A. That has been several years ago. Doctor used to make his rounds through the white male department twice a week. That was before he took charge of the colored women and the Dick’s cottage. Q. How long has it been since he has had charge of those two? A. I cannot tell you. I don’t remember. That matter can be very easily ascertained. Q. From the records? A. Yes, sir. Q. It has been several years? A. Yes, sir, it has been several years. Q. Does Dr. Babcock ever go on the wards now for an inspec¬ tion? A. No. Q. He does not? A. No. You mean the white male department? Q. Yes, the Board of Regents, have they ever made a thorough inspection of those wards, go through from top to bottom, to your knowledge? A. Not since I have been here, to my knowledge. They might have done that and I not known it. Q. They might have gone through there and made that inspec¬ tion and you not know it? A. Yes, sir. There was one member of the board that went through probably since Christmas, Dr. Taylor. 0 . At what time was that? A. I don’t know. It has been since Christmas. I was told that he went through. I did not see him. O. Would you have had information if the Board of Regents had been through there? Would you have known about it? Is it possible that they could have gone through without your having heard of it, or would you probably have heard about it, if they had? A. In a general way I think I would have heard something about it. The Chairman—Dr. Babcock, as I understand, has charge of the colored women’s building? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are there not about 500 patients there? A. I don’t know what the number is. Q. From four to five hundred, about? A. Colored women? Q. Yes. A. I don’t know what the number is. Q. Do you think it is physically possible for any man to properly attend to the general supervision of an institution of this size and at the same time attempt to give the proper medical attention to one of the chief departments at the same time he is doing that? A. That is an opinion that is a rather difficult one for me to decide. I don’t consider that I am the person to give an opinion on anything like that. 246 Q. Does it require a good deal of time to go through your depart¬ ment for a physician? A. Yes, sir. Q. About how long? A. You can go through in a hurry or you can take a day to do it. Q. Properly? A. Two and a half hours, to go on every ward and see the patients that are complaining and hear the complaints that are made. Q. The rule is here? A. Twice a day, that is the rule. Q. Isn't it your information that it is not usual to require of a Superintendent that he should attempt to take charge of such work as that besides the work as Superintendent of the institution? A. In some instances the Superintendent does not have any care like that on his shoulders at all. Q. Isn’t it so in most instances? A. I never have gone into those things particularly. Mr. Carey—Who employed you? A. Dr. Griffin. Q. Who now elects the employees in the institution, who gave you your job? A. The Superintendent employs. Q. All under him? A. Yes, sir, Dr. Babcock selects the nurses. Q. Did you ever make complaint to the Board of Regents or to any board? A. No, sir. Q. None whatever? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know anything about any sheets here for filthy patients other than rubber sheets? A. We use rubber sheets to protect the mattresses. Q. They are in use in the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you know Mr. -? A. J. M.? Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, sir. Q. He testified that he tried to get employment, and could not get it. Do you think he ought to have had employment any more than he got? A. There comes an opinion again. Q. Didn’t you recommend that employment be not given to him? A. Yes, sir, I did. 0 . What was your reason for it? A. My reason for that was that Mr. - was very annoying. He would come to me with his reports and of course I would have to hear them. Q. You did not think he ought to be employed? A. Just from that standpoint. Q. He gave you a whole lot of trouble? A. I considered Mr. - rather officious and he persisted in it. That was from my standpoint. 247 Q. This medicine you used on the bugs, it is as good as you know of for that purpose? A. Yes, it is the best preparation I know of from an economical standpoint. Other things are all right, but they cost much more money. Q. You know of no better remedy? A. No, sir. Q. What is it? A. We use a preparation of turpentine and car¬ bolic acid, an ounce to the pint of carbolic acid. Q. When Dr. Hyman was here did you and he have charge of the dining room ? A. He had charge of the white male depart¬ ment. Q. That is the position he held. Now that position Dr. Thompson fills? A. Yes, sir. Q. You never did work up to the point of resigning? A. No, I never have. Q. Do you send requisitions for supplies in the dining room, supplies to the dining room? Is that a part of your duties? A. In my department it is. Q. In the general dining rooms, for all those supplies there? A. I send all that are presented to me. Q. Do you have any judgment in the selection of what it should be? A. Yes, I can strike out certain things and insert others, if I see proper. Q. The things that are supplied in there, do they meet with your approval? A. The things that are used there compare very well with the things used on any farm. I never made any charge. My instructions from Dr. Babcock were to let things rock just as they were going. Mr. Bates—Who writes out the requisitions? A. The nurse usually does. Sometimes I do myself. Mr. Bunch—Were not the requisitions always filled when pre¬ sented? A. To the store room? Q. Yes. A. So far as I know they were. I never heard any complaint, sir. Mr. Harrison—You had no right to make requisitions for food, did you? A. No, I never did anything like that. Q. Those requisitions that you made were for table supplies? A. Yes, sir. Q. Such as were fixed ? A. In the dining rooms. Q. Supplied to the ward dining rooms? A. Yes, sir. Q. Forks? A. We don’t use forks in the building. Q. Spoons and cups? A. Yes, sir. 248 Mr. Bunch—Mr. Mitchell, you stated yesterday that those patients that helped serve the meals in the dining room with food were not clean. Who selects those patients and sends them to the dining room? A. That is generally done by the dining room man. He asks for them. Q. Do you have anything to do with the selection of the patients that go there to the dining room? A. No, not directly, indirectly I have. Q. Aren’t those patients selected out of the best patients on the ward? A. We try to get the best men we can to do the work. If you get a man that is a bright man on the ward he will not work in the dining room. It is the class of patients that haven’t got very much mind that do the work in the dining room. As I said yester¬ day, if you fix a man up today, by tomorrow he has got his clothes soiled. A man that has got much sense is not going to work in the dining room. Q. You were here before I came here, some time? A. Yes, sir. Q. It has been stated that this dairy is in an unsanitary condi¬ tion. How does that dairy compare with the dairy that they had when I came here in 1881 ? A. Prior to that time? Q. When I came here? A. Considerable improvement, because at that time they did not have any concrete floors at all. Q. There is another question I would like to ask you. How does the supply of vegetables compare with the supply then obtained from the farm ? A. Prior to the time you came ? Q. Yes, sir, before I took charge of it, are we getting more vegetables or less vegetables? A. That is something I never had thought anything about. I never had charge of the vegetables. That was out of my department. 0 . You come through the farm every day? A. Yes, but I did not at that time, but I will say this, that we get plenty of vegetables when vegetables are in season. In fact, we have vegetables all the year round. Mr. Sawyer—Did you get just as many? You can’t see any improvement he has made? A. I was just thinking. We have a great deal more in the winter. In former times we did not get ruta baga turnips. In the summer when vegetables are in season we have always had them here, but whether they were raised or not before he came here I cannot say. v Mr. Bunch—It has been stated here that we ought to raise more food stuffs on the farm. Plow does the crop of corn compare with 249 the crops raised before I took charge ? You have had some expe¬ rience along that line? A. There is more corn raised now than in former days. Q. How does the supply of corn furnished for the table here, the asylum, compare to the supplies that were furnished previous to my incumbency here of this position as bread stuffs here? A. Well, the corn, as a general thing—the meal and hominy you have refer¬ ence to? Q. The corn generally used here? A. As a general thing it is better, because the meal ground here is better than bought meal. Q. How does the quality of beef compare to the quality of what was here when I came here? A. The beef is a great deal better. I can talk more freely on that than anything else you have men¬ tioned. The beef in former days was pretty rough. Q. How does the supply of bacon compare with that formerly fur¬ nished for the farm? A. We have had more bacon, more fresh meat since you have been here than we had in former days. Q. What do you think of the idea of raising flour enough to supply this institution on this farm? A. Mr. Bunch, that is an opinion. Q. Of course. Others have expressed opinions. We want your opinion. You have been here with me eighteen years, and I want you to give this Commission your opinion. Do you believe it is possible to raise all the flour that we use here in this institution on this farm in connection with the corn and vegetables we use? A. Not according to the present management. Q. Do you think it would be possible under any other manage¬ ment? A. No, I don’t think so. Mr. Harrison—Previous to Mr. Bunch’s administration, wasn’t hired employees used in that dairy? A. Yes, and during his administration too. Q. Since his administration you say that conditions are cleaner, more sanitary? A. Yes, sir. Q. Than they were before? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Bunch—Were any milkers ever reported that had syphilis or gonorrhoea when we had hired men? A. I don’t know. Q. Whether they were reported—do you know of anything of the kind? A. How is that? Q. Any of the milkers there, did they come under your observa¬ tion as having gonorrhoea or syphilis, those that were milking 250 there? A. There was one man with gonorrhoea that was reported, I think. I am not sure. Q. It is not possible with the patients provided? Dr. Griffin uses proper precautions in selecting patients to send out to milk? A. No, not if the matter was left to him. Q. Isn’t it his duty to select the patients that go out there or to do any other work on the place? A. If it was left to him. Q. It would be his duty to send out patients who were clear of syphilis, gonorrhoea or any other contagious disease? A. Yes, sir. Q. As milkers? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Sawyer—Mr. Mitchell, were you raised on the farm? A. Yes, sir. Q. Born and raised on the farm? A. Yes, sir. O. Just from your observation out there of the negroes milking, do you think those negroes are about as clean as the average negro on the farm? A. About as clean as those, I think so. That is an opinion though. Q. I am just asking for an opinion? A. I don’t consider I am an expert. Q. Do you think that in the course of the administration of the affairs of this institution they have treated you fairly? A. Who? Q. Dr. Babcock particularly? A. That is another opinion. That is not evidence. Q. I think you would come mighty near knowing about that, whether they paid you enough. Do you think you have had a square deal from the administration? A. I think they could have paid me more money. Q. Is that the only complaint you have got to make? A. That is the only complaint in addition to what I have already made. Q. I mean of a personal nature. We would like to get our ideas about things here now? A. No, I have no personal grievances. I have felt at times that they were a little close-fisted about money matters, but I make no complaint about that. Q. Did you think the Legislature was thinking more about the taxpayers than about these people? Did you think the Legislature was close-fisted with them? A. Yes, I thought so. Q. I believe you were here under the late Dr. Griffin? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long were you here under him? A. I came here in 1884. Q. And Dr. Griffin left here in 1891, if I am not mistaken. I think those are about the dates. Did you think more, not in a per- 251 sonal way, of the administration of Dr. Griffin or Dr. Babcock’s management? A. I have been here longer under Dr. Babcock’s management, and Dr. Babcock’s management was all right for several years after he came here. I had no fault to find. Q. In recent years ? A. In recent years he has appeared indifferent, and from some cause, I don’t know what. I haven’t got any personal grievance at all. As I understand, that is what you want to get at. Q. Well, not exactly. So often you take a man in an institution of this kind, and he feels like the Superintendent or head man is likely to show a little more favoritism to another fellow than to him? A. No, I have got no complaint. Q. Why didn't you think they did not give you enough authority on your ward? You said you lacked system and that Dr. Babcock and Dr. Thompson did not co-operate with you on this line? A. You misunderstood me. Q. You said they would not obey orders and they would not turn them off? A. You misunderstood me. I did not say Dr. Thomp¬ son would not co-operate. Q. He did? A. He did so far as his authority went. • Q. How was it then ? A. Dr. Thompson did not hire nor discharge those nurses, and I must say that Dr. Babcock was to some extent indifferent about discharging promptly the nurses that I reported from time to time. I have no personal grievance at all. That is a matter that I never did discuss with him, because Dr. Babcock is usually very busy, and he is not a man to discuss such things as that any way. Q. When he was talking about getting these nurses, you went on and did not get the nurses, and that cook you told him about and he would not turn him off. Did you make that with any good reason ? What reason did you think he had in your own mind ? A. I could give an opinion, but that is no evidence, and I did not see that it would amount to much. 0 . Why do you think he acted in that manner? Why didn’t he do something when you asked him? A. He either lost sight of it, or was indifferent. I could not tell you. I don’t think it is exactly just to ask a man a question like that, in my position. 0 . It is pretty hard on you, but this Committee has to get the facts, and the Committee has thrown guards around the witnesses to protect them as far as possible? A. I have no protection. If I commit myself like that, Dr. Babcock would criticise it. Q. You have said a good deal I would imagine if I was in his 252 position I would criticise. A. I haven’t said anything except what was pulled out. From the beginning I have objected to opinions, from the starting of the giving of this evidence. Q. If you hadn’t gave your opinions we would not have gotten at the absolute truth. You would not have told much. You said in answer to a question of some of these gentlemen, and I don’t want to ask any unjust question, but this was suggested by some other testimony that I imagine would be a little embarrassing? A. It has been, but I could not avoid it. Q. You said these things went on in here from bad management, bad food and a lack of system? A. Bad food? Q. These things you referred to—lack of system. What would you suggest as to changes in the way of system? You said you did not have things systemized, and that Dr. Thompson would co-operate, but Dr. Babcock would not. What would you suggeest? A. I would suggest that we have more nurses, and the nurses have better discipline, and that they pay attention to what I say. Q. You want more nurses first? A. Yes, sir. Q. And second, you want better men, better class of men? A. Yes, sir, more competent. Q. Next, give you in your position more authority? A. I think I ought to have more authority. Q. So that you could employ and discharge? A. I don’t say that, but I do say this about the nurses. We ought to have better discip¬ line, and they ought to obey me. When I give instructions they ought to carry them out. O. In the big institutions they have a superintendent who is responsible for everything, or he delegates it down to some subordi¬ nate officer next in rank, something of that kind, whether it be to hire and discharge or anything else. Do you think he ought to give you the right to hire and discharge? A. Yes, sir. Q. In your opinion would it be practical? You have been here and in touch with all these things. Do you think that things would go better on your ward with more attendants of the proper quality? A. And discipline. Q. You could discipline them if they were turned over to you? A. I know that. Q. Do you believe that if you paid them better wages you would get better ones? A. We would get better men. Q. You would? A. Yes, sir. 253 Q. Where do these fellows sleep, these attendants? A. They sleep on the wards. Q. Their sleeping quarters are no better than the patients? A. No, sir. Q. Aren’t most of those patients very poor people? Would you judge them to be so? A. I am not sure. Q. You spoke about the question of restraints just now. The rule is that they should not be used, that an attendant should not put on these, that he should never put on these without instructions direct from the physician ? A. I said that was the rule at that time. Q. It is not the rule now? A. It is not carried out, if it is the rule. Q. Strictly? A. No, sir. Q. Suppose you were on duty on a ward and a patient became violent, do you think it would be a better system to send out and get Dr. Thompson, and that fellow violent, and tearing everything up, as they sometimes do, rather than that the nurse should exercise a little common sense? A. I think that is a very good idea. They ought to report the matter, and they ought to wait for the physician to decide when those restraints should be removed: That is where the mistake is made. Q. It seems to me if the doctor made his rounds every day, if he came the next day, and thought it ought to come off, he could have the nurse take it off? A. Many of these nurses want discretion as to when the restraint should be taken off. Q. A man has got to assume some responsibility and exercise some judgment? A. Yes, sir. Q. The main thing is more nurses and better nurses? A. Yes, sir. Q. The main consideration is better? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you expect to remain in the service of the institution? A. So far as I know. Mr. Hardin—Don't you regard the meal and vegetables furnished from the farm, the bacon, beef and everything more wholesome than than that is sold? A. Yes, sir. Q. Than what you get from the city here ? A. Yes, sir. Q. \ou know Mr. Bunch. Do you regard him as a good business man ? A. Yes, sir. Q. A good farmer? A. Yes, sir. Q. He does the very best he can? A. Yes, sir. Q. He has charge, I believe, of the dairy? A. Yes, sir, he has the general supervision of the dairy. 254 Q. Do you believe he would tolerate any carelessness or anything of that kind if made known to him? A. No. Mr. Dick—Do you make any record of your reports, or do you make them verbally? A. Verbally. Q. You can’t refer to them any other time? A. No, sir. Q. There is no record of it at all? A. No, sir. The Chairman—Has it been the custom in times past to have regular reports filed daily by you? A. No, sir. 0 . Do you know whether any written reports are sent in from your wards? A. Reports of what? Q. Of daily reports as to conditions, the requisitions you make, etc. ? A. No, not daily. The requisitions come in regularly once a month, and emergency ones come in from time to 'time, of course, on the ward. Is that what you want? Q. That is one thing. A. The daily reports come out in the morn¬ ing. The nurses make out the reports and turn them over right after, as to the number of patients on the ward. That is all. Q. Do you make that now? A. Yes, sir. O. Do you keep a permanent record ? A. I make it out in a book. I keep that. I turn that over to the doctor, and he copies them from my book. Q. You don’t know what becomes of it after the doctor gets it? A. I keep the book, make it out every day. Q. As I understand, there is no complaint of the supplies, whether they be foodstuffs or clothing or others as they are supplied to the institution out of the storehouse? A. No complaint. Of course, complaints arise from different departments from time to time, yes. There is complaint, yes, sir. Q. Are they in your opinion justifiable? A. Sometimes they are. Q. Generally speaking you would say the goods are satisfactory as bought? A. Yes, sir, generally speaking. Q. About these special complaints? A. Sometimes they would get hold of a matter that was a little tainted or something like that, and there would be complaint about that. Q. No more than there would be in any line of business, would there? A. No, in that respect. Mr. Hardin—I want to remind the Regents that if they want to ask anything they can do so. Mr. Sawyer—Do you remember a patient you had here in this institution by the name of-? A. Yes, sir, I do. 255 Q. Did he ever talk to you about the affairs of this institution after he began to get better? A. The affairs of the institution? Q. How things were conducted around here? A. No, sir. Q. While in here he did not? A. No, he never mentioned that matter to me. Q. Did he complain? A. He complained about being kept here, and he showed me some letters he had received from Dr. Kester, and a reply to some he had written to him. Q. He did not complain about the fare and the surroundings to you while he was here? A. He complained about some furniture. He wanted a bureau in his room. Q. Is that all he wanted? A. That is all I remember he com¬ plained to me about while he was here. Q. How long did he stay here? A. I don't remember. Q. Approximately? A. I would say a year, maybe longer. 0 . He did not complain about the food served to him? A. I don’t think he ever complained to me about his food while here. Q. Did you make him eat in the left hand dining room or the other one? I believe there is a little preference in the dining rooms? A. I don’t have the assigning of them. Dr. Thompson does that, but he ate in the small pay room. Q. On the left hand side as you go to the main hall? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he make any complaint about the food? A. I don’t remember that he complained to me about the food. Q. Did any lawyer talk with you about this situation out here? A. No. Q. Did anybody else talk with you about this institution out here ? A. Anybody else? Q. On the outside, as to the affairs out here, before this Commit¬ tee got up here, come over here and talk with you about it? A. No. I have not been interviewed by anybody, not at all, sir. Q. Did anybody have an idea what you were going to testify this morning? A. I don’t think so. They may have had an idea, but I have not talked to anybody to tell them what I was going to testify, because I did not know myself. I did not know myself what I was going to be asked. Mr. Bunch—Mr. Mitchell, will you tell to the Committee as near as you can the circumstances surrounding Mr. - asking for a suit of clothes and what became of those clothes in the end. The matter was not brought up by me before? A. Mr. - asked me for some clothes and I made a requisition, and the requisi- 256 tion was signed. I don’t remember the ward. He was probably a second ward man, and I sent the requisition and it was carried to the store room, and I don’t remember what the occurrence was exactly, I don't think he got the clothes on the first requisition. It strikes me there was a second requisition, but he did finally get the clothes, and Mr. Bunch said he would not wear the clothes, and he said if he did not wear them he would see that he did not carry them out of the institution. So, when he got ready to leave the institution, I went on the ward and told him that I wished to go through his trunk, as it was the custom, and Mr. -, he did not like it. He showed signs that he did not like it, and I told him it was the custom, and he finally submitted to it, and I looked through his trunk and told him I would have to take out that suit of clothes, as he had never worn them. If he had worn them we would have let him carry them out, but as he had never worn them, I would have to keep them in the institution. That is the sum and substance of it as I recall it. Mr. Sawyer—Did he wear them? A. No, sir. Q. He left them? A. No, sir. Q. Did he tell you why? A. No, sir. Q. What is your opinion ? A. I knew he had not worn them. Q. Why did you think he did not wear them? A. I don’t think they were good enough for him. I had never seen him w r ear the suit. Mr. Bunch—Were those clothes made by the institution or bought clothes? A. Bought. Q. Better than the average? A. Yes, sir, they were. Air. Sawyer—Was-he paying anything to stay in here? A. I don’t know. Q. You don’t know whether he paid? A. No, sir. Q. A beneficiary? A. I don’t know, sir. Air. Dick—Do you generally know who the pay patients are? A. Unless I ask about it. Q. Can you tell whether the complaints came more from the pay patients or the others? A. Well, I would say they came more from the men who ate in the pay room. Q. Do you know why that is? A. They are men of better mind. They have got more presence of mind. They are better than those that stay in the mess hall. Those in the mess hall are not as intelli¬ gent as a rule as those that eat in the pay room. 257 Mr. Hardin—A good deal was said about bathing. If a patient wants to take a bath once, twice or three times a week, or would they have to make a request? A. A patient can go in and draw the water and take a bath whenever he feels like it, unless it is one of the epileptics. They are not supposed to bathe. Q. Sometimes they don’t like to be bathed? A. Yes, sir. Q. Not only insane people, but many that are sane are that way? A. It often happens that way. Dr. Thompson, recalled, testified as follows: Mr. Carey—I want to ask you about the assault on-, was that in 1894 or 1895? A. I think—that time is confusing. That man had been here two or three or four times, and I think the date must have been one of the previous admissions. Q. Was it before or after Dr. Babcock came here? A. After. Q. Do you recollect the circumstances of that assault? A. As I learned it, the nurse attacked him and bruised him up. I remember seeing him in the afternoon. As I remember it, it occurred after dinner, and as I was going off on an early morning train the next morning, I told Mr. Mitchell to call Dr. Babcock's attention to the case. Q. Did you look into the case when you came back ? A. I found out that the nurse had attacked him apparently without a cause. Q. Did you make any report of it to Dr. Babcock after you looked into it? A. Not after I asked Mr. Mitchell if he reported it. Q. Did you ever have any conference with Dr. Babcock about that? A. No, sir. Q. How long did the nurse remain here? A. Several months. I don’t remember, three, four or five months. Q. Was he discharged or did he quit ? A. He quit, as well as I remember. Mr. Sawyer—I wanted to ask the doctor this. If that nurse had assaulted this patient to the extent that has been described here in the testimony as I heard it yesterday by Mr. Mitchell, he being stamped in the face with his shoe, he must have been badly bruised ? A. Slight bruise on the face as well as I remember, amount probably to a facial cut. Q. In your opinion why was he retained in the institution, in the service of the institution, after acting in that manner with one of his patients? A. I don’t know. As I asked Mr. Mitchell to attend to it on my going off, I thought Dr. Babcock bad considered it. I 17—A. 258 left on the early morning train. I never mentioned to the doctor anything about it when I came back. Q. You have charge of the white males, have you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. Although you saw he was still here and knew he had assaulted the patient you never mentioned it to Dr. Babcock at all on your return? A. No, sir. Q. You don’t know why Dr. Babcock kept him on? A. No, sir, I do not. I found out from Mr. Mitchell that he had reported it. Q. You talked with Mr. Mitchell? A. Yes, sir. Q. But you did not mention it to the Superintendent? A. Not to Dr. Babcock. Q. Do you usually discuss anything of that kind that happens in the institution with the Superintendent? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you have any reason to believe that Dr. Babcock had any peculiar reason why he should retain this fellow after acting that way? A. I don’t think so. I don’t think it was any favoritism. He never shows any favoritism. Q. You thought he ought to be discharged? A. I thought he ought to be discharged. If Dr. Babcock had asked me, I would have said that he ought to go, but in my position, when the case w'as reported, I did not consider that I was any longer responsible for his being here. Q. Did Mr. Mitchell tell you that he had reported that? Did he tell you he had reported it to Dr. Babcock? A. I don’t know. I don’t remember whether he did or not. I think he just said, doctor did not say anything, or something like that. Q. He treated it in a light way? A. Something of that kind. I don’t remember exactly. That was my impression. Q. After long association with the institution, and with Dr. Babcock, do you mean to say that he generally overlooks such acts as that without looking into the conduct of the attendants? A. I don’t mean that, sir, that he overlooks them. As far as I can remember, that is the only exception. Q. That one case? A. Yes, sir. Q. The fellow staid here two or three months? A. At least two or three, may be four. I don’t remember now. 0 . Do you have a system here like they have in some similar institutions in order for a better discipline and for a better system, although your system is somewhat questioned by some, have you a way where these attendants have been discharged, are they dis- 259 charged summarily or are they given a chance? A. For an assault they are generally discharged without any chance of returning. Q. He did not do that in this case? A. No, sir. Q. Did that strike you as being out of the usual order or peculiar ? A. It was unusual. Q. Do you know where Johnson is now? A. He lived about Wagner, Aiken County. That was his home. I don’t know whether he is there now or not. Mr. Harrison—I want to inquire about the subject of the amuse¬ ments here. I believe you stated that last summer you had baseball games here by the patients, and also had women, white women, as witnesses at the games. Now, doctor, on whose initiative was that taken up? A. As well as I remember, Mr.-suggested it. Q. How were the funds for the balls and bats and mits and masks, etc., raised ? A. Some bv subscription, I think. I think some of the patients took up the thing, and also a friend from the outside sent something. Q. Did the institution furnish any of that stuff itself? A. Only the suits. Q. Only the suits? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you make a private contribution yourself to that fund, doctor? A. I did on different occasions, sometimes. Q. In other words, you made a money contribution? A. Yes, sir, personally. Q. Out of your private purse? A. Yes, sir, small amounts. It was not very much. Q. You say the institution furnished the suits. Who got up that—the suits? A. Dr. Saunders and myself got the matrons to have them marked, and cut off, and elastics put to the legs of the pants. Q. Regular baseball suits? A. Regular baseball suits, done bv the patients, some of the employees in the female department. Q. That part was done by yourself and Dr. Saunders? A. Mr. •-asked if we could get them. Q. Did she desire to contribute out of her own private purse? A. I think she did. Q. Did she do it ? A. I think she contributed once or twice, and told him in case he needed it, she would do so again. Q. As to the dances, doctor, who is present at those dances among the officers of the institution ? A. The matrons and the supervisor 26 o are always required to be there, and as many of the physicians as can. Q. You attend, do you not? A, As often as I can, a portion of almost every night. Q. Does Dr. Saunders attend? A. She takes an active part in it. Q. Does the Superintendent attend? A. Not recently, to my knowledge. Q. How long since? A. Not for some time back. I could not say positively how long. It has been some time past since I have seen him. Q. A year? A. Probably so. Q. Two years? A. I will not say two years; not within the past year, to my knowledge. Q. Do any of the Board of Regents ever attend those dances, sir? A. I don’t remember seeing any of them there. It is possible they might have been there, but I don’t remember. Q. Is that dance a diversion for your patients? A. We consider it so. Q. Do you think they enjoy it? A. They certainly do, a portion of them. Q. You have a graphophone on the wards, I believe. That is owned by the institution, I believe? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did the institution purchase it ? A. That is my understanding. Q. Do you say it is carried about from ward to ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do the patients enjoy that? A. They seem to enjoy it very much. Q. Have you cards, playing cards? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are they furnished by the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. I understand, then, that the dances and the graphophone—you have only one I believe? A. One only. Q. And the playing cards are the only amusements that the institution furnishes at all ? A. All I can recollect at present. Mr. Hardin—Do you allow male patients to round dance with the females? A. No, sir, neither nurses nor patients. The round dances are with the female nurses or the female patients. Q. I don’t ask with regard to the nurses, the male patients and the female patients? A. No, sir. Q. You did not allow them to round dance together? A. No, sir. Mr. Harrison—Dr. Thompson, there was something said yester¬ day about walks, and it was stated in the daily papers that the patients were taken to walk. Is that true? A. that is misleading. The only walks they take is walking around in the yard. Q. Is that done themselves, or is it done at the instance of the attendants? A. In the female side they walk them around a good deal. The female nurses walk them around a good deal, but it is not done on the male side. Mr. Hardin—Have the nurses time to take them to walk ? A. As we are situated now in the male department we could not do it. The walks that the men get are on the farm and around the premises. They take them out there sometimes. Mr. Dick—Is that done systematically every day? A. Pretty regularly. The Chairman—That is among the female wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you room here to provide those walks for the male patients? A. Within the premises? Q. Yes. A. It would benefit them even an acre or two. If they had walks around it would benefit them. Q. If you had more nurses could you partially give them walks around the farm? A. With plenty of nurses we could, yes, sir. Q. In your opinion can the Superintendent of this institution effectively direct the institution, and at the same time have charge of the medical treatment of one of the divisions of the institution? A. I don’t see how it can be done as it should. Q. Do you think it is reasonable to expect Dr. Babcock to give proper supervision, general supervision, of this institution, and at the same time try to give medical attention that is necessary to the colored women at the same time, doctor? A. No, sir, I do not. Q. How long has be been doing that? A. It was between 1895 and 1900. I am not positive as to what time. Q. About eight years? A. At least eight or nine. Q. I understand that in addition to that he has charge of the Dick’s cottage where some of the women patients are? A. Yes, sir. Q. And in addition has designed and overseen the construction of the new buildings? A. Yes, sir. Q. For the last number of years? A. Yes, sir. Q. Has he had charge of another building where there are some of the female patients, whites? A. The Dix cottage and the new building. Q. How many whites in the new building? A. I have not heard Dr. Saunders say. I think two wards probably. They accommo¬ date down there probably forty or fifty. I am not positive of that. 262 Q. How many white patients in the Dix cottage? A. There are accommodations there for from twenty to thirty. Q. Do you know how many patients are in the colored women's department? A. About 316, somewhere along there. I think 316 it is reported. Q. He is attending physician for one building where there are over three hundred? A. Yes, sir. Q. Another where there are forty? A. Yes, sir. Q. Another where there are between fifty and sixty? A. Yes, sir, probably. Q. Don’t you think that an attempt to do such work is enough to break down the health of any man? A. I do. Q. Don’t you think the time Dr. Babcock spent on his vacation last year in Europe was very well deserved and a much needed vacation? A. I do. Mr. Carey—How does it happen that he took charge of these other buildings, scarcity of physicians? A. As I understand, it was his offer to the board. Q. Were you scarce with physicians here? Could any of the rest take that on in addition to what you are already doing? A. It would have been overloading, just as it has been with him. Q. Do you think if any of the rest of you were in charge of the colored women it would be too much for you? A. Yes, sir, just the same as he has. Q. Did you get a copy of the rules? A. The old rules. Q. Were there any? A. None except thost “don’ts” and “nots.” The Chairman—What daily reports are now made to you by those under you in your department ? A. The supervisors make a report to me, first the nurses to the supervisors and the super¬ visors to the doctors. Q. What color paper is that slip? A. The nurses blue and the forms yellow. Q. Printed ones? A. No, sir, I was mistaken as to the forms being yellow. They are white. The physician’s report is yellow. Q. This is the blue report? A. Yes, sir. Q. The one made to you? A. Yes, sir. Q. This reports the number of patients, those sick in bed, feeble patients, those taking meals in the dining room and on the wards, those employed at work in the dining room, and various other particulars here, number at chapel service, assaults from patients, repairs needed. 263 Q. Those were filled out by the nurses and sent to you? A. Sent to the supervisor. Q. What did the supervisor do with it? A. He copies it into a book and brings it to me. Q. What does he do with the slip? A. He destroys it. Q. What becomes of the record, he keeps it in the report to you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what way? A. In the book. Q. He brings that book up to you? A. Yes, sir, daily. Q. What do you do with the report? A. I don’t do anything. Q. You look it over? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you copy it? A. Not now. Q. You send the book to the supervisor? A. He gets it next morning. Q. Does that report in any shape go to the Superintendent, Dr. Babcock? A. No, sir, it does not, unless there is some special item in it. That is filed as a record. Q. Like what ? A. Like it is reported that some one has been abused, or something like that. Q. How often is a special report made? A. Very seldom. Q. Once a month ? A. According to the way the patients are reported as being maltreated if it comes for that. Q. Will it average once a month? A. Yes, sir, I think it will average oftener than that. Q. Probably two or three ? A. Probably twice. Q. Not always abuse? A. Yes, sir, anything very important report oftener than twice a month. Q. Do you make that verbally? A. Yes, sir, make it verbally. Q. Where do you make that ? Where is the Superintendent’s office? A. At his home. Q. You go to his house and make the report? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the only office prepared for him? A. Yes, sir, his office is at his house. Q. Is any o'ther report made to you? A. No, sir, except verbal reports through the day if anything springs up. Q. And the yellow memoranda, who makes that out? A. That is made out from the book that the nurses keep. That comes up in a book there from the supervisor. Q. The same book just referred to? A. Yes. sir. Q. Who makes it? A. The physician. Q. From each ward you make it out? A. Yes, sir. 264 Q. The medical reports, etc., in your ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. You made that out this morning? A. Yes, sir. Q. I see at the bottom a space for the approval of the Superin¬ tendent. Do you take that to the Superintendent? A. No, sir. Q. “Care should be taken,’’ etc. Isn't that an instruction to take it to the Superintendent? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long since that has been done? A. I don’t think it was ever done. Q. Did not the Superintendent have to act upon that? A. When he resided in the building here he had access to it, and it was never conformed to, so when he moved over we did not attempt to keep it up by sending it over there. What I mean is that Dr. Babcock once resided in the center building. Q. When was that? A. That was when he first came, first four, five or six years, probably three or four. Q. He has not lived here for ten years? A. No, sir. Q. Since that time he has not seen this report? A. No, sir. Q. Who signs the report “approved’’? A. I generally sign it for the Superintendent. Sometimes just send it out and let the man¬ ager get it. Sometimes it is not signed at all. Q. You act for the Superintendent? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you act for the Superintendent in this respect for the other departments? A. White women. Q. Colored women? A. Their reports are all made on the same sheet, on the same or two. Q. You are the official acting for the Superintendent when you sign this written report of repairs needed? A. Yes, sir. Q. What report do you make to the Superintendent of repairs needed ? A. None. Q, Do you make any verbal reports? A. No, sir. Q. Do you ever call his attention to repairs needed? A. Some¬ times I go and speak to him about some special repair that is needed. Q. Have you called his attention to the repairs needed in your wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. To the unsanitary conditions? A. I don’t think I mentioned their unsanitary condition. I told him they needed repairs badly. Q. And the floors? A. Yes, sir. . Q. And the plastering? A. Yes, sir. Q. Whitewashing? A. I don’t remember saying anything about the whitewashing, sir. 265 Q. You did not call attention to the walls? A. I told him I wanted so much done. Q. You made those repairs continually for some years occas¬ ionally? A. Not frequently, but occasionally . 0 . You have taken over this matter? It is not under the special direction of the Superintendent? A. Which matter? Q. Of approving these repairs? A. They were always done in the same way in the office even when he was on this side, when he had access to them without going out of his office. It has always been done in the same way. Q. I see here the assistant physician’s daily report. Is that the report that you keep? A. We kept it at one time. Q. It is not now kept? A. No, sir. Q. How long since it has been kept? A. Something over two years. Q. Why was it discontinued ? A. When we had two assistant physicians, Dr. Sims, we kept it up. After she left, I think in November, 1907,the clerical work in the office got very heavy for me, and I dropped it off my side and then it was not kept on the female side. I had more clerical work than I could do, and I did not keep it up. Q. What did you do with it when you did not keep it up? A. Filed it away in the office here. Q. Did you ever show it to the Superintendent? A. No, sir. Q. Did he ever examine it? A. I cannot recollect that I ever saw him examine it. They would lay on my desk for, say, a month and then would bundle them up in a package, or might keep them two months on the table. Q. Has the Superintendent ever asked for it since you stopped keeping it? A. No, sir. Q. Are there any other reports made? A. No, sir. Q. These are the only ones that are or ever have been used for the last several years? A. Yes, sir. Q. What reports are made to you of restraints used on your wards? A. That is not made regularly. Q. Ts it the rule of the institution that it should be made to you? A. That is the understanding. No restraint is to be put upon a patient unless it is reported to the supervisor or the physician. Q. Why isn’t that rule observed? A. It is just one of those things that has just grown. Our constant change of nurses, and the nurses 266 being those kind that get indifferent, and they don’t report, and you cannot impress upon them the importance of it. Q. A lack of discipline? A. It must be. Q. This is rather interesting, especially as I understand it, you say that the laxity of discipline is due largely to the impossibility with the small number at your command to keep up to the mark? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that gradually during the last few years carelessness and indifference have grown up? A. Yes, sir. Q. That has resulted in a feeling on your part, has it, of power¬ lessness of improving the conditions? A. Not exactly powerless¬ ness. Q. I mean under present conditions? A. Under the present con¬ dition of affairs. Mr. Sawyer—The chairman asked you if you were practically powerless as to making improvement of these conditions here of discipline, etc. I ask, if under the present management, it is impossi¬ ble? A. I did not say under the present administration, under the present condition of things, and I answered yes to your question. Q. Are you practically powerless, and you answered affirmatively to the question the chairman asked. You have gone on to say that this lack of discipline and inefficiency has grown up on account of not having sufficient assistance, etc. You say that all these different reports have dropped out. I wish to ask if you are prac¬ tically powerless to improve that under the present administration and management? A. No, not that. I think it could be improved under the present administration. Q. You think it is possible under the present administration? A. Yes, sir. The Chairman—You don’t lay it to the doors of the administra¬ tion, but to the conditions? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Sawyer—Somebody must be responsible. That is certain. Somebody must be responsible for this lack of system and lack of discipline that you testify to. When you got through testifying, you testified that there was lack of discipline and lack of system. Who is responsible for that lack? Is it Dr. Babcock, or is it Dr. Babcock and his machine down there. Dr. Thompson, Dr. Saunders, Mr. Mitchell and all the attendants, or is it one doctor or all equally responsible in your respective places? A. I think it is due partly to all of us. Q. It kind of grew on you because you did not have the proper 267 facilities? You haven’t had enough help of the right kind? A. That is the way I feel about it. The Chairman—Have you felt that you had the proper support and encouragement from those above you? A. Not along that line. Q. That is to say, the Superintendent, the Board of Regents and the Legislature? A. I feel that there is not enough touch. I think if they could only have seen the thing we could have gotten help. Q. Do you have any conference between the heads of depart¬ ments and the Superintendent? A. No, sir. Q. Don’t you think that would be very helpful? A. I do. That is exactly what I am speaking of. Q. There seems to be a lack of co-operation ? A. I want them to know exactly what is going on, touch. That is what I mean by touch. Q. You think if the Superintendent and the Board of Regents had known more definitely about the conditions in the wards they would have remedied them? A. I believe so. Q. You have, however, kept them informed of these conditions, have you not? A. I have kept the Superintendent. Mr. Hardin—You sometimes act as Superintendent, do you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you were acting as Superintendent did you comply with the rules? A. In making up statements? Q. The question as asked by the Chairman? A. No, sir, there was no one to make out my report. Q. There was no report made at all? A. The same old reports from the wards and the supervisors. Q. Wouldn’t it require more clerical help to look after these matters? A. A good deal more. Q. And, after all, the whole trouble is due largely to the lack of proper finances in your opinion? A. Yes, sir, that will cover the whole thing. Q. You are a very hard worked man, T know. You are a very hard worked man, and it would not be safe for you to take any more work? A. I don’t know that I can. Mr. Harrison—In reply to a question from Dr. Taylor yesterday, if I am not right. I want you to correct it. You spoke of a tour of inspection that Dr. Ray made through the white male wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the nature of the inspection, doctor? A. As well 268 as I remember, I took the doctor through one story, and I think I took both through the Taylor building and through another story. I know I took Dr. Ray, but I am not certain as to Dr. Taylor. The trip was made through one story of the building and back through another story. Q. Do you know whether that was reported to the Board of Regents, the circumstances of that tour, whether a report was made? A. They made their report. 0 . They made their report? A. I happened to be present talking to the Superintendent. Q. Both Dr. Taylor and Dr. Ray made reports to the Board of Regents? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the nature of that report, do you remember? A. I don’t remember any words. Dr. Taylor, I remember, made a report that he found things in a condition in the white male department that needed attention, and to have that corrected as soon as possible or at once, or something like that. Q. Dr. Ray also made a report? A. Yes, sir, but I don’t remem¬ ber his report, because Dr. Taylor was more emphatic because I called his special attention to some things. Q. Dr. Ray’s report, do you remember whether it confirmed Dr. Taylor’s or not? A. I think Dr. Ray went through first as well as I remember, sir. Q. He went through first? A. He went through one month and Dr. Taylor the next. Q. They were executive Regents that month? A. Yes, sir. Q. You remember, however, that Dr. Ray did make a report? A. Yes, sir. It is always customary for the executive Regent to make a report. Q. You don’t recollect whether Dr. Ray made a report, or do you recall whether he made a report as to the condition of the building? A. I don't know. It is very likely he did. I remember I called his attention to the condition of the building as being bad. Q. Do you read the minutes of the executive session of the Board of Regents? A. No, sir. 0 . You do not? A. No, sir. Q. You have access to them? A. No, sir. I could ask Mr. Bunch for it. Q. If you wished to read it? A. Yes, sir. 0 . Are you supposed to make any report to the Board of Regents ? A. Yes, sir, the Superintendent always makes a report to the board. 269 Q. What is the feeling? Is there any feeling of illwill by the patients towards the officers of the institution in any way ? A. I think there is a feeling amongst them on my side. I can’t say anything as to it amongst the others. We feel that we don’t see the Superintendent and the Board of Regents as often as we should. Q. Officers or patients? A. Patients. Q. In case a patient requests to be discharged, what answer would be given him? A. It would be submitted to the Superintend¬ ent or the Board of Regents, if the Superintendent is not willing to decide himself. That is my answer. Q. You submit it to the Superintendent or the Board of Regents ? A. To the Superintendent, and if he is not willing to act on it, the Board of Regents will act. 0 . Is that the way? A. Yes, sir. Sometimes I take it right to the Superintendent, but as a general thing if a patient says he wants to be discharged, I tell them they must wait until the Board of Regents meets, and I tell the Superintendent, and if he is not willing to act, he will take it to the Board of Regents, and let them take it up at one of their meetings. When a request is submitted the Superintendent sometimes acts, but he directs that we wait for the Board of Regents as a general thing. Mr. Hardin—It is rather a common thing for all heads to be criticised, presidents, governors, all representative men in authority at the head? They are always more or less criticised, are they not? A. I think so, yes, sir. An adjournment was thereupon had until half-past three P. M. Columbia, S. C., Friday afternoon. Pursuant to adjournment the Commission met this afternoon at the State Hospital for the Insane. Present: The members of the Committee. Dr. E. B. Saunders, being duly sworn, testified as follows: Mr. Harrison—You say your name is? A. E. B. Saunders. Q. What is your age? A. 25 years old. Q. What was your preparation before coming to this institution? A. Medical, literary, or what? Q. Medical. A. I was four years at the Charleston Medical Col¬ lege. 270 Q. Did you graduate with honors ? A. I was first honor graduate. Q. After that you came direct to this institution? A. I did within four days after graduation. Q. I wish you would describe the duties of your position here? A. As I understand it, I am assistant physician in charge of the white female department, except the Dick’s cottage. Q. Are you in charge of the patients in the new building? A. Yes. Q. What office have you ? A. I am physician. Q. Office? A. I have no office. O. Office room? A. I have no office room. I work in the general office. O. You have a desk? A. Yes, sir. 0 . Conveniently arranged? A. It could be better, but I am very well satisfied as it is. Q. Have you a filing case of any sort? A. For filing? Q. Is there any system of filing according to the modern methods ? A. Filing what? Q. Reports. A. Reports of what kind? Q. From nurses, and reports from supervisors? A. No, I have no system of filing. Q. It is not possible under the circumstances ? A. I guess it could be done. Q. It could be done? A. Yes, sir, but I must say T would have to have help. Q. Under the circumstances it is not possible? A. No, sir. Q. What medical assistance is given? A. Two physicians. Q. To you, have you any medical assistance? A. I have no assistant, as far as a physician goes, and I have not many nurses. Q. I am not after that. The point I am trying to get is, have you an assistant physician under you? A. I have an assistant, a matron. Q. You are really the only physician on your ward? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any other place that you can go to dictate your letters privately? A. I dictate letters in the general office. Q. Are you subject to interruptions in that office? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what way, please? A. Answering the telephone, occasion¬ ally receiving patients, calls from nurses, emergencies of various kinds. Q. Visitors to the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. What effect does that have upon the efficiency of your work? 271 A. I don’t know. I have never known what it was to work without it. I don’t know what I could do without it. The two vears that I have worked here I have worked with it. I have never known the work without it. Q. Do you consider that working at an advantage or at a disad¬ vantage? A. I don’t think I have suffered particularly from it. Q. Your work has not suffered? A. I don’t see that it has. Q. Do you think that your office and your office arrangements, etc., are adequate? A. I should prefer a private office, so that my nurses could come to me for what is needed without going in with visitors and nurses from other departments. Q. Would that add to the efficiency of your service? A. A great deal to my pleasure. Q. How about efficiency, do you think it would add to that too? A. Yes, I do. Q. What hours are you on duty? A. I am on duty from nine until nine. Q. From nine to nine? A. Later, if necessary. All calls are attended to. Q. Describe your daily duties from nine to nine? A. Today is different from tomorrow or yesterday. In this institution where there are so many people all of whom by nature of their circum¬ stances are very likely to have accidents of various kinds, I have no regular routine duty or work except in a general way. I attempt to start out regularly each day, but often I am interfered with. I endeavor to start out at nine o’clock on my regular morning round. I am always accompanied by servants or nurses. It takes me any¬ where from nine to twelve or one, sometimes earlier, according to the amount of sickness on the ward, as to when I get through. When I come back, if I have any examination of any specimens of anything, I do that. After that I dictate letters to Miss Thompson, who is the stenographer. Then it is about dinner time, and when I finish, start again on the rounds about four o’clock. Q. How long does that take? A. It depends altogether on the amount of work. Q. What is the usual time? A. Three or three and a half, not so long as the morning, but it is not unusual for it to be longer. I have no set time. I stay as long as I think it is necessary. Q. On that inspection do you go through every ward? A. I do. Q. And you look into the rooms ? A. I don’t look into every room. 272 Q. You look into the rooms? A. Into the rooms where the patients are. Those on the outside are not allowed to stay in the rooms and lounge on the beds. Q. You look into the wash rooms, the bathing rooms? A. Not systematically. Q. I wasn’t asking that. Do you do it? A. O, yes, sir. Q. What recreation have you, if any? A. I have music. I am at present attempting a course in music. Q. Your music would have to be before nine o’clock in the morn¬ ing? A. No. I have music lessons twice a week. Dr. Babcock has kindly allowed me two hours, usually it is three hours. I am taking from a suburban college. Q. Where are your quarters, doctor? A. Above this floor. Q. Are they pleasant? A. I am satisfied with it. Q. Who does the bacteriological work for the institution, doctor? A. Dr. Griffin is the bacteriologist. Q. Does he do your work? A. No, I do mine myself. Q. Have you a proper laboratory for doing that? A. In com¬ parison with some it might not be so very good, but with us it is a great deal better than nothing. Mr. Sawyer—This bacteriological work, doctor, that you do, is it in the nature of general practice that you do it? Do you do it to assist you in diagnosis? A. For diagnostic purposes altogether. Q. Really, you would not, in the course of your work here, you w'ould not have a great deal of that work to do? A. I do a great deal of it. Q. Is it necessary? A. Yes, I do a great deal of it necessarily. Q. Necessarily you would not have a great deal? A. I don’t know. You can’t say. You can do much or little. Q. In your general practice you go ahead and do it yourself? A. Yes, sir. Q. Taking everything into consideration, the amount of money expended there and other things, you think the laboratory answers fairly well? A. Yes, sir. It compares favorably with the other equipment we have. Q. Just now the question was asked if some revolution as to the medical assistants was advantageous, whether she could do this work better without interruptions, while there were not exactly bad conditions, whether it was an advantage or a disadvantage in the work, state whether or not a doctor working under normal condi¬ tions his work is not subject to interruptions even in his office? I 273 want to ask you this, is it an advantage or a disadvantage for a doctor to be interrupted by the telephone or by patients, is it a normal thing for a doctor to be interrupted by the telephone or by patitnts? A. I think so. Q. Is it normal? A. Yes, sir. Q. That a doctor is interrupted? A. I don’t object to it seriously. Q. In his actual practice a doctor, like any other business man, is liable to interruptions? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison—I want to ask you to describe how the patients under your care are received into the institution. We have the commitment papers which have been put in evidence. It will not be necessary to go into that. Have you a receiving room, doctor? A. I have a receiving ward. 0 . Have you a receiving room in that ward? A. No, I have not. Q. Have you scales for weighing them? A. Yes, sir, we have scales. Q. That is done, is it not? A. Yes, sir, all patients are weighed. Q. Where are they examined, taken into some other room on the receiving ward? A. Taken into a room on the receiving ward. Q. Do you make a thorough physical examination? A. I do. Q. Of every patient ? A. I do. Q. And the physical defects are charted, are they? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you the drawing of a body on which to chart them? A. I don’t know. Q. What do you use, doctor, to take them down ? A. I have a regular book of sheets, you might say, in which this is entered and copied into the history book. Q. Is that examination, from your point of view, satisfactory? A. I do more than that records. I make out the card, and I have a copy of that, but I do a great deal more than that. I make a great many examinations of which no report is made. Q. Is that done on your initiative? A. The examinations? O. Yes. A. Yes. Q. You do it though it is not required for the institution? A. I do it because I feel it is my duty to do it. Q. There is nothing to compel you? A. No. Mr. Sawyer—I want to ask if this was when you took this position here in this institution, did you not conceive it to be your duty to make these diagnoses by means of a physical, bacteriological and pathological way in the light of your medical knowledge without 18 — A. 274 being compelled to do so strictly by the instructions of the Superin¬ tendent? A. I did. Q. You had that conception of your duty without being instructed to do so? A. If I had not had such an idea, it would be no use of my being here. Mr. Harrison—The idea I was trying to convey, is there a special form of the institution that would cause the doctors to make that examination? A. Yes, sir, and there is one for the nurses as well as for the physicians. Q. This examination is made, you say, in a room ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And then the patient is bathed? A. The examination is made according to the condition of the patient. If very ill or anything wrong he is examined at once. Otherwise, he is examined the next morning on the regular rounds. I receive the patients myself. I always receive the patients. I always take them and by a casual inspection I can tell whether or not the patient needs immediate medical attention, or let them be put on the wards. Q. As to your examining room, have you a special room set apart for that purpose? A. Yes, at the time. 0 . These patients, as they are received, are they frequently diseased? A. Some we have, though some we have not. The health of the department, though, is very good. Q. What is their condition as to vermin? A. I have none. It is nothing unusual for them to come. Three or four times they got in that way. The women's wards are in good condition. With a little vigilance on the part of myself and the nurses we have had no difficulty in getting rid of them. Q. You have no difficulty? A. It requires a certain amount of vigilance. At present we have none. It is nothing unusual for them to come in with them. We keep the regular treatment on hand for them always. Q. When these patients come in they are apt to spread the vermin? A. Unless we watch. They do it occasionally, not any¬ thing unusual for one patient to become infected from another. Q. Do they get spread? A. I would not say they were spread on the wards. 0 . On the ward? A. They are destroyed before they do that. Q. You stamp them out? A. Yes, I do. 0 . It is possible to do that? A. Yes. Q. Do you give them a mental examination ? A. With the mind, of course, Mr. Harrison, as I say, it requires months, not days. 275 We can give a person a physical examination and be perfectly satis¬ fied that a person is or is not well, it may require one or more exam¬ inations, but a mental examination calls for an investigation over a long time. Q. Are you able to give that? A. Yes, I do. New cases require quite a great deal of close inspection, not only for the sake of the patient but for my own good, because I am learning constantly, and the new cases are always interesting from the standpoint of mentality or lack of it, and for that reason they are always watched. Q. Do you keep a clinical chart ? A. I do not. Q. What is the advantage of them? A. It is always used in infectious diseases, in acute or infectious diseases. They are not used in mental cases, for the reason that they extend over such a long time, and on the acute ward we have anywhere from twenty- five to thirty according to the population. It varies now, and I have two nurses on the ward to do everything, and they make regular reports. Another thing, I don’t encourage it among certain patients on account of the patient’s condition, for very often there are some of them so that you can make sick and keep sick by constant atten¬ tion. Q. You say two nurses cannot do the work? A. No, sir. Q. If you had more you could carry that on better? A. I could, but I have always thought I had no right to ask for more than I got, as I could get along comfortably with what I had and do justice to the patients. Q. You think you do justice? A. I think, everything being taken into consideration, they do. Q. Do they get justice from a humanitarian standpoint? A. Yes, sir, they do. Mr. Sawyer—This clinical record that you speak of. Of course, we all know when a doctor is practicing and has the blessing of a trained nurse he keeps his clinical record, but with this class of diseases, isn’t it a fact, so far as you know as to other institutions, that they do not consider this disease even in a matter of diagnosis extending over such a long period and where you are in the house and see the patient and see him every day, don’t you know that a clinical record is not considered necessary for these cases, and where no acute changes are taking place? Where in cases like typhoid fever, where you see the patient maybe not every day, and this class of diseases, except in very acute cases which you do not see very often, long spaces of time, and where the temperature rises. 2/6 it is necessary to keep a clinical record? A. If I thought it necessary I would have them. I am on the ward always. I am not more than one or two minutes from a nurse in case of a rise of temperature, it is very unusual, if a patient has a fit or anything of that kind, it is very unusual that a nurse cannot get me. The only thing you can do is to protect the patient and keep it from doing itself any harm. Mr. Harrison—What class of patients do you receive here? Do you receive any criminally insane? A. I have never, so far as I know, received a criminal woman. 0. How about inebriates? A. I have had some. Q. Idiots? A. Yes, sir. Q. Drug patients? A. Yes, sir. O. Paresis? A. Yes, sir. O. Acute mania? A. Yes, sir. 0. I suppose that you receive almost every known disease? A. Xo. We have a few cases of tuberculosis, though tuberculosis, taking everything into consideration, in my department, does very well. I was surprised to find that I could not find a specimen of tuberculosis in the woman's ward, and my examination extended over two weeks for the purpose, and I could not find a specimen of it in the sputa, although I have seen some cases where it did not show up in the sputa. Q. Does your death rate from tuberculosis amount to anything? A. Very little. Q. Then, in your judgment, from your standpoint, you would not deem it necessary to make any further provision for tuberculosis? A. Yes, I would. 0. Would that be expensive or inexpensive? A. I know abso¬ lutely nothing about construction. I could not say. I have attempted since I have been here and have gotten with the kind permission of Dr. Babcock a kind of sun-porch has been erected in which the patients sleep. O. Then the treatment can be given for tuberculosis? A. In the milder case, with the construction we have now, they can be treated very well for a while. 0. It would take a very small appropriation? A. With a great many of them you would have to have more provisions than you have for a common one. For one thing, they are very excitable and hard to manage. Those people have got to be put in rooms where they cannot harm themselves or anybody else. You can’t put them in open rooms because they will do themselves harm. 277 Q. The only thing you could have would be closed rooms ? A. I object to the word closed room. Q. Not open? A. What we speak of as guarded rooms. We want them the regulation size and what we mean by guarded rooms we mean with heavy doors. We have the double door. The upper half has iron rods across it. We have usually two and then there is the soldered door. That room is to keep the patients from hurting themselves or anybody else. 0 . How many white women have you ? A. Five hundred white women. I have charge of 471 at this time. Q. How many trained nurses have you? A. Nurses in training or only trained nurses ? Q. Have you any graduates? A. Yes, sir. 0 . How many? A. I am sorry, but I can't name them. Q. About how many? A. Twelve or thirteen. Q. Graduate trained nurses? A. Yes, sir, I have junior, senior and probationists. The graduate nurses wear a black band. There is no distinction between junior and senior, the one is first and the other second. The probationers are out of uniform. Q. You have enough? A. We have four more coming Monday. Q. Is that sufficient to do the work on your department? A. As far as things go now, as compared with the rest of the institution, I have no right to ask for more. Q. Don’t compare. Speak of them from a hospital standpoint? A. From a State Hospital standpoint, not a plenty. Mr. Sawyer—Also take into consideration the taxpayers and the Legislature. The Chairman—We want to be in position to go back to the Legislature and tell them what we need, and we want you to tell us in view of your experience, what you need. We have not very much money. The Legislature will want to understand before it will look out for that end of the line, and if you will tell us, it will enable us to inform them of your needs. That is what we are driving at in this examination. Mr. Sawyer—You are to realize also that the acts of the Legisla¬ ture will come before the taxpayers when they go back home. Mr. Harrison—You say that you think the employment of 35 will be sufficient? A. 31 at present. Q. Four more coming in? A. Yes, sir. 0 . You think that will be ample for the needs of your depart¬ ment ? A. I should like to have more. 278 Q. How many? A. I should like to have two on every ward, and three on some. I have at present three on only one ward. On the fourth ward I have a feeble old woman. O. Have you any scrub women ? A. I have two in the morning. Q. For the floor? A. Yes, sir. Q. In addition to the nurses? A. They do nothing but scrub. Q. As I understand it they go through the ward ? A. Systemati¬ cally, ward after ward. Q. They scrub everything from the windows to the floor? A. The floor, the nurses do that, the nurses and the patients, largely the nurses. Q. You said you would like to have three to the ward, how many would that take? A. I have charge of fifteen. O. How many would you want? A. Taking into consideration everything, we should have two or more on each ward. Q. Was that included in your estimate? Your have fifteen wards? A. Yes, sir. 0 . How many would that be? A. We ought to have three on some. Q. Should be two on all? A. I should say so. Four wards should have three. I don’t mean that is necessary. Q. What you believe is proper? A. I believe it is. Q. From a hospital standpoint? A. State Hospital standpoint. Q. You ought to have how many, now? A. 38. Q. It would take 38 nurses? A. Yes, and we have 31 now. Q. You are then nearly supplied? A. It would require more than that, because I have several wards, in the house with only one nurse. There should be three on some, and that would take more than 38. Q. I was going on the basis of only fifteen wards? A. You forget we have night duty. I have night nurses. Q. They were included in the thirty-one? A. Yes, sir. Q. That would take how many in addition to the nurses you have now ? A. I should suggest that we need a supervisor for the whole- place. Mr. Hardin—Judging from your testimony upon the whole your department is pretty well equipped, is it not? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the treatment for insanity, as you understand it, doctor? A. As you know, or perhaps you do not, the victims of the disease are self limited. Taking into consideration that insanity cannot be cured in itself, it is self limited, and I know of no treat- 279 ment or medicine where more can be done. I know of no class of people who appreciate it more. Q. What would you suggest as to treatment by drugs ? Do they do any good? A. Properly used they do good. Q. There would be special cases where it could be used to advantage? A. In some of my cases I can't use very much, though in my department I would say that as far as I know, there is no case who has never received any treatment. Q. Is it used for insanity or for the body? A. It is used for the mental condition as well as the physical. Q. Mental as well as physical? A. You can readily understand that in cases of acute mania sulphurnal would do much good. Q. What other drugs do you use regularly? A. Armamente reine. Q. Are they in the nature of tonics? A. I use tonics, yes, sir. Q. Do you use bromides? A. Yes, sir, occasionally; very little. Q. And you do think drugs play some part? A. Yes, sir, they do quite a good part. Q. How about exercise? A. I believe in exercise, walking par¬ ticularly. Q. Do you believe in diversion? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you believe in working them here? A. Employment is a diversion for a good many. Q. How about amusements? A. I believe in amusements. Q. How about hvdrotherapeutic treatment ? A. Good in its place. Q. Good you think? A. Yes, sir. Q. How about electric treatment? A. When intelligently used it is good, when not, it is injurious. Q. What is done for them in the way of amusements? A. We have a weekly dance during the winter months. In the summer we have a variety of things. Q. What? A. They play cards by the wards, and they play games of all kinds. We have times too when we compel them to go out on the yard, and have dancing. Q. That is on the wards? A. Yes, sir, we dance on the wards, but usually go to the amusement room. Q. Is there any system of encouragement of amusements by the institution ? A. I encourage the patients all I can. Q. From the standpoint of the institution, are amusements encouraged ? A. I must say yes. 28 o Q. Does the institution do anything in the way of furnishing materials for the patients in that line? A. It furnished music for the dances. Last summer when the white male patients had a great idea of playing ball. Mr. Bunch furnished everything, and I had my white patients to make uniforms for them. We did that much. Q. Did you contribute anything to that fund? A. What fund? 0 . To the baseball team, to buy balls? A. The balls they got? Q. Bats, etc. ? A. I did not. 1 furnished some of the material, but a very small amount. Q. You did furnish some material from your private funds? A. So small an amount that it was practically nothing. Mr. Sawyer—With the baseball fever that has spread over the country I don't see how you could have gotten along without having taxes levied for these things. A. It is just this: The baseball team varies with the patients. Last summer there were quite a number who played very well, while this year they have very few. They are very changeable. At times they will play and at times they will not. Q. As I understand it—what do you understand in this institution— in other words, does this institution encourage those gentlemen, Dr. Babcock? A. Yes, sir. Q. It encourages it? A. Yes, sir. Q. The various exercises and amusements? A. Yes, sir. Q. This would apply to the white male department as well as to the rest ? A. I can't tell you anything about the white male depart¬ ment. It has never solicited as far as I am concerned. Q. As far as you know ? A. As far as I am concerned. O. As far as you know? A. Xo, whenever we want anything we usually get all we need, and I suppose they get as much as I do. O. When ? A. Since I came to the institution. Q. These dances, doctor, who attends them besides the patients? A. The nurses and I do. Q. Dr. Thompson? A. Yes, sir, irregularly. 0 . Dr. Babcock? A. No, sir. Mr. Sawyer—This morning in the examination of Dr. Thompson it appeared to me that some little emphasis was laid upon the fact that all the officers and Dr. Babcock did not attend the dances. I had the pleasure of attending one probably because I happen to be a dancing man. Can’t you have just as good dances there, in your judgment, if Dr. Babcock was not there as if he was there? A. Yes, sir. O. Don't they get ample supervision without requiring a man like the Superintendent to come to see them, to attend the dances with the patients? A. Yes, sir, and then everybody can't go one place. Some one has to stay elsewhere. Mr. Hardin—Dr. Babcock does not discourage anything of that kind? A. Certainly not. Mr. Harrison—In the summer of 1908 you were telling just a minute ago you and Dr. Thompson got up baseball games, did you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you take your patients out? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why were they discontinued? A. Because Dr. Thompson was away at the time. We took a vacation when he came back, and when Dr. Thompson came back the season was over. Q. In Dr. Thompson's absence you were here? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the baseball was not continued then? A. It was not. Q. Why was it stopped ? A. Because in the nature of things I could not be in two places at once. 1 could not stay in the office and go to the baseball field. It was against the orders for them to go unless Dr. Thompson or I could be there. Q. You had all the office work to do at that time? A. Yes, sir. Q. While Dr. Thompson was away? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you make the rounds for him at all? A. I did not at that time. Q. Have you ever done so? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Sawyer—I believe it is the custom with business people to give their employees a little vacation in the summer? A. As far as I know it is. Q. If you have visited the Government Hospital that some of this Committee has had the pleasure of visiting, 1 understand they give their employees, say, the Superintendent W. A. White one month, that is, one-twelfth of the year, for vacation. Does Dr. Bab¬ cock ever take over a month? A. Dr. Babcock, as far as I know, has had no vacation at all until last summer. Q. Have any of the doctors had over a month? A. I had. Q. Have you ? A. On one vacation I had. I made up my time. I took two in one. Q. You have to double up on the wards when some one is away? A. Yes, sir. Q. As I understand it, you and Dr. Babcock had to go on these wards in the absence of Dr. Thompson, and you could not still keep up this baseball? A. Yes, sir. 282 Q. There has been no strict local law passed in this institution that they should not play? A. O, no. We have already discussed getting up a game for the summer, but so far we haven’t got the players for this summer. Mr. Sawyer—Did Dr. Babcock discourage this baseball? A. No. Q. He encouraged it ? A. Yes. 0 . He did encourage it? A. As far as I know, yes, sir. I have never heard him say one thing against baseball. Q. You don't hardly see how he could get time to look after this and see around after anything else—he left that to the subordinates? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison—Doctor. I want to come to the question—the reason that I ask all these questions. Does the institution do all it should do to encourage amusements among the patients ? A. Taking every thing into consideration, we have, yes, sir. Taking into consideration the funds we have, yes, sir. Q. You have? A. Yes, sir; I don’t know anything about the busi¬ ness affairs of the institution. Q. Does the institution do all that is desirable for the amusement of the patients? A. It-depends altogether on what you mean by desirable. Mr. Hardin—The institution under the circumstances would you say it has done what it could? A. Yes, sir, you would be sur¬ prised to know the number of patients in the institution in my department who are happy. It is a rare thing to find patients who are unhappy, but I have several by reason of their disposition not to be happy or contented, but with the exception of those they are happy. They will ask you to let them go but rarely. They pine for home for a short time, and then get accustomed to it, and it is nothing unusual to have them loath to leave you. Mr. Harrison—I am asking, you know, for the information of the Committee. Do you think on the whole the institution encour¬ ages amusements and furnishes materials? A. As far as possible, not only from the patient’s, but from the nurse’s standpoint. 0 . As to the condition of your wards, are they clean? A. Yes, sir, as far as we can keep them, taking into consideration that in my 497 I have 158 who are habitually untidy. Q. From a hospital standpoint? A. From a State Hospital standpoint. Q. Clean and sanitary? A. As far as we can get them. Q. Do you consider them so? A. Yes, sir. 283 Q. How about the walls? A. The walls at present need painting. Though since I have been here some have been painted and are in good condition, sir. Q. Generally in pretty good condition? A. Yes, sir. Q. The woodwork and the floors and the doors of the rooms, etc. They are in pretty good condition? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Bates—How many did you say were untidy? A. 158. There are some more at times, but those are habitually so. Mr. Hardin—Isn't it largely due to the supervision and encourage¬ ment of the patients in things of that kind, doctor? A. Yes, sir. Q. It is the interest they take in it largely? A. Yes, sir. Q. That makes the conditions cleanly? A. Yes, sir, and the nurses are largely responsible for the cleanliness, because they do the work. Mr. Sawyer—And if there is untidiness and real uncleanliness on the wards, the parties in charge of that ward, the supervisor whether male or female, that supervision is personally responsible for the condition of that ward ? A. As I see it, yes, sir. Q. And he is not the right kind of officer if it is not done without the Superintendent having to come down and having a scouring broom to scour it? A. I will have to say there that the circum¬ stances will altogether govern. I can say in my department. Q. I am talking about the general conditions. You know what the supervisor is responsible for. You know if he is responsible for these conditions, and if that duty is properly attended to on that ward, they would keep those places clean as far as they were able with the number of nurses, would they not? A. As far as we can, I believe, yes, sir. Q. Have you ever made a suggestion to Dr. Babcock that would mitigate or improve the condition of these patients, a suggestion that he has not given you an ample hearing upon and shown interest in it? A. If it is possible I always get it; if not, I get a good excuse for it. Q. As to the beds, have you all the beds you need in your depart¬ ment? A. Yes, sir. Q. Good quality? A. And clean. Q. Cotton mattresses? A. There are a few patients that have not got cotton mattresses. Since I have been here all the cotton mattresses have been made over. Q. Do you have washable mattresses or a rubber sheet? A. Sheet. 284 Q. You don’t use the washable mattress? A. I don't care for it. I much prefer the rubber sheet. Q. Have you iron or wood beds? A. I have both. Q. Is it possible to keep wood beds in a sanitary condition? A. Yes, sir. They are heavy oak, and are fastened to the floor. They are very easily cleaned. Q. Are your bedroom walls kept sanitary? A. We keep them in a sanitary condition considering the type of the patients. A few of our wards are kept as clean as homes, taking into consideration they are put to here. We have sanitary conditions as far as we pos¬ sibly can. We try to keep all the untidy ones on the same ward. Mr. Sawyer—We were speaking about vermin just now, com¬ monly known as lice and bedbugs, getting into the beds. Is there much in here? A. I have none in my department. Q. It is charged that the walls have bedbugs in them, and that they let people come in with lice? A. They do come. Q. It has been charged that they come in here in this way. In the everyday actual life of a physician he would naturally come across such things as that among a certain class of people ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Some very good people, some of the very best, might get a little careless, and their hair might be a little long, and they might get inhabitants in their heads, and it would require, as you say, the strictest kind of vigilance and the use of some strong germi¬ cides, and it would require a great deal of work to keep them from getting into the hair sometimes, would it not? A. Yes, sir. 0 . And to keep the walls from being in a very unclean condi¬ tion? I know I have seen them in houses I have been into in my practice? A. Yes, sir. Q. Would it not require the strictest kind of vigilance to pro¬ hibit body lice from ever getting into this institution, into an institu¬ tion of this kind where they bring negroes of the slovenliest sort, and whites too. Would it not be almost impossible to keep them from getting in here? You can get them out, but they are obliged to get in here sometimes? A. Perhaps you would not take hearsay as evidence. You can take it for what it is worth. I was told by the head nurse that there was an old blind woman brought here last summer from Abbeville County, and her hair was in such a condition that it was cut as one mass. Mr. Harrison—There is one question I wanted to ask in regard to 285 bedbugs and body lice. It is possible to stamp them out? A. Yes, sir. Q. It can be done? A. Yes, sir. Q. It has been done? A. It has been done in my department as fast as they come. We do occasionally get them, but with the constant vigilance of the nurses it is kept down. As far as it is possible it is done. Q. It is possible that this kind of condition is not necessary that bugs should be throughout the wards? A. It is not necessary in my department. Mr. Sawyer—Of course, you can stamp it out at any given time. With the new patients it is constantly coming in all the time? A. You have to keep stamping it out. Every patient that brings them in makes it necessary for us to stamp them out again. Mr. Harrison—In receiving this class of patients, if you had a proper receiving room, would it be possible to so arrange it that patients could not bring in these bedbugs and other vermin ? A. If you examine the patients in there it is not. When they come with bugs their trunks are full of them. It is impossible at one stroke to do away even with the vermin, because even one cleaning of the hair will not exterminate them, and it is the rule not to cut the hair for that purpose. They germinate after that. Q. If you had a proper receiving room that you could put that patient into that, and put the clothing on him, and in that wav it would be possible to get that patient rid of vermin before putting him on the regular wards? A. We could not altogether exchange the clothes. The only thing to do is to keep stamping them out the way we have been doing. Q. In the case of bedbugs it is not necessary to cut the hair, is it? A. No. O. Is the patient’s clothing that is brought here disinfected? A. No. Q. It is not? A. No. Q. Fumigated? A. No. Q. Aren’t they bathed on the wards after they arrive? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Hardin—Would the friends or relatives of the patients be willing to let their names be put on the State clothes ? A. Some of them would object seriously. Just the other day a gentleman who had a daughter here clad in State shoes objected very seriously. O. Do you think the institution ought to listen to those com¬ plaints? A. From the public I do not. 286 Q. Do you think the institution should allow its physicians and nurses and their patients to suffer in order to please a whim of that sort? A. You have to take this into consideration. The patients are very destructive, and the private clothing is a great help to the institution, because when they furnish them we do not have to do it. One who is not accustomed to the institution would not know how very destructive they are in here. Q. If you were to destroy the clothing, would that stamp it out? A. They may come in in a state of incubation. Mr. Harrison—If you had a room on that receiving ward where you could take a patient and wash him, bathe him thoroughly, and dress him say temporarily in asylum clothing, or State clothing and then put him on the wards? I am asking if that is possible? Then take their clothing and disinfect them. Couldn’t that be done? A. You can if you have the help, the money and the equipment. As I say, it is not a necessity at all. Mr. Sawyer—It is one of those affairs that will take more money from the taxpayer without helping the inmates here? A. That is the idea exactly. Mr. Harrison—As to the food of the patients, where is it cooked? A. The food of my patients is cooked in several places, buildings. 0 . Where? A. The Dix cottage patients are served there at the cottage kitchen and those at the Taylor building are served at that building. The new building is at present serving for one ward only, and for the others on the end section. All the rest get their food from the main kitchen. Q. How is the food prepared in the new building, pretty well? A. Yes, sir, no objection. Q. Wholesome? A. Thoroughly. Q. No objection whatever? A. None. Q. The Taylor building? A. Also good. Q. Kept clean? A. As far as I know. Q. Sanitary? A. Yes, sir. 0 . You have charge of it? A. No, I have not. Q. Who has charge of that? A. I have not. Q. Who has ? A. I think, I am not sure, I think Miss Irwin has charge of that. Q. She is your subordinate? A. Yes, sir. I suppose so. Q. You are not sure ? A. I know I have not— Mr. Sawyer—The question was if Miss Irwin ordered the nurses, 28 7 whether she is literally your subordinate, and is it your duty to give her orders ? A. She is responsible to Dr. Babcock and so am I. Q. She is not directly under you? A. No, indeed. Q. She is not under you in any sense? A. Medically, but she has a great many other duties with which I have nothing to do. Mr. Harrison—You say you have eight wards served from the main kitchen? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the character of that food? A. It could be better with more money. With what we have I can’t find any objection. I think it does reasonably well under the circumstances. Q. You think it is well cooked? A. I cannot say well. Q. Well, is it properly cooked? A. No, but I will say that it is as well prepared as it could be under the circumstances. Q. Is it nutritious? A. I can only say so by telling the result of the food. There are few patients who come here who do not gain in flesh. Q. Have you ever been in the main kitchen ? A. I have been once or twice. Q. Is it kept clean? A. No, sir, I cannot say that it is. Q. Are the employees clean ? A. I know nothing of the employees of the kitchen. Q. From your observation? A. I have seen Mr. Earle only. As far as I know he is working in the kitchen. Q. Are there any other cooks ? A. I don’t know. I don’t know anything about the kitchen. Q. Did you see any other people in the kitchen? A. I saw some colored people. Q. Were they clean ? A. I did not notice them. I had no occasion to do so. Mr. Sawyer—You were born and reared in York County? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you been accustomed to negro servants ? A. My mother* was a German and rather disliked to have negroes around the house, and for that reason she did her own cooking. She would not have them. Q. Your mother was a German and would not have them? A. Yes, sir. Q. As a general thing these patients that you saw, were they not about the average of the negro cooks and help that you see anywhere else? A. As far as I know, yes, sir. Not having to take care of the men's department I never see into those things. I have 288 more than I can do to take care of over five hundred women. I think that is all that is required of me. Mr. Harrison—Didn’t the nurses complain about the food? A. I have heard complaints of the food. Q. Do you recollect an instance where a complaint was made to Dr. Babcock, took the Regents down there and showed them the rice ? A. Yes, sir. He told me he took the Regents. Q. You were not present? A. No, sir. The rice was improved, materially improved. Q. Do your patients always have enough to eat? A. At times the food on the wards is rather scarce on account of the number of patients. I have to change my patients a great deal on account of the nature of the patients I have a crowded room here, and I cannot put any more in there without over-crowding them, and the wards get congested, and if I get one or two more patients than I can accommodate I take them elsewhere. Q. That is really an abnormal condition ? A. The food is usually plentiful. Q. Nearly always? A. Usually the food is plentiful. Occasion¬ ally we get complaints of its being scarce. Q. That patients did not get enough? A. Yes, sir. That com¬ plaint is unusual. Q. You report that? A. 'Yes, sir. Q. To whom? A. Occasionally to Mr. Bunch and to Dr. Bab¬ cock. Mr. Dick—Do you make out an estimate every week for the patients for your wards? A. No, I have nothing to do with the provisions. O. You have not? A. That is not prescribed as one of my duties. O. Who prepares that for your wards and when is it given in, doctor? A. My services are divided regularly into wards, and then I have the fifth—that is the hospital ward. Whenever any patient is sick it is taken to that ward. There is where all the sick people are attended to. and that is the ward where we always have a crowd to nurse, and here we have junior nurses on this ward, and here we have a stove, an alcohol stove, and here the nurses prepare many things for the sick people. My sick people do not want for proper diet. Air. Harrison—Isn’t it rather a difficult matter, doctor? A. I don’t know much about cooking myself. Q. Isn’t it a rather difficult matter to cook large quantities of rice 289 or grits and at all times have them done as they should be ? A. I think so, yes, sir. When the food is cooked in as large quantities as we have here, it is almost impossible to expect to have it as nice as a private house. Mr. Harrison—You have satisfactory quarters for your nurses? A. I should like to have my nurses quarters improved. Q. I mean that you are getting on all right? A. Yes, we get along very comfortably. Q. It is a very nice place? It is not unpleasant? A. It is not unpleasant in the least. I cannot call it unpleasant. Q. It is not? A. It is not an ideal home. Q. Still, it is pretty good? A. O, yes, sir, they put up with it. Q. You have no trouble whatever in keeping help, do you, that you get in? A. I get unusally short of nurses at times. Q. At times you do? A. Yes, sir. Q. How low does it fall sometimes? A. I can’t tell how low, but it does run low at times. Q. And then you get an excess just as at present? A. I have had more attendants than I have had in quite a time. 0. You are increasing the number of your nurses, or are some of them leaving you? A. Yes, sir. I have had several to leave me lately. Q. You are constantly getting applications? A. Here? Q. For new places? A. Getting ready to open a ward in the new building. Mr. Sawyer—Don’t you have nurses to graduate, and stay here until they can get better positions, and then leave you? A. They don’t even wait until they graduate. Ours is a mere stepping-stone, because asylum work is not altogether pleasant work. They come and catch on, and after staying here a week or two weeks or a month, they get something better. Yon can’t blame the nurses. Q. Most of the institutions have fine nurses’ homes? A. Yes, sir, they do. Q. And they tell me it adds a great deal to the efficiency of the work, to the discipline and the interest of the nurses in the institu¬ tion. They stay better and work better? A. They put up with these things, but if they had a nurse’s home, of course, it would be better. 0. I wanted to ask you another question on this line. Some stress was laid just now on the kind of kitchen where the food is in— a. 290 prepared. It is an advantage to some extent to have different kitchens? A. Yes, sir, decidedly. Q. Not all from one kitchen? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Carey—You have a happy family on your side? A. Yes, sir, as I understand, as happy as we can expect to have. O. Perfect harmony between you and the nurses? A. I do not mean to say that it is possible to find perfect people. I do not mean to say that every nurse we have is satisfactory. Q. If not, what do you do? A. I go to Dr. Babcock and com¬ plain. Q. How does the doctor take it? A. The doctor always receives me and every complaint that I have kindly. Q. Has he ever shown a disposition not to do so? A. No, sir. Q. He always looked into the matters you complained of? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you and your nurses get along? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are there any in your department you think ought not to be there? A. I can’t say that there are. I am very well pleased with the service of my nurses, and I feel that I have reason to be grateful for their services. Q. To your patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. You have visited other hospitals? A. Very little. Q. Have you ever visited the woman’s department in- Hospital ? A. I have never. Q. Considering the circumstances, do you think your department measures up to what you would reasonably expect it to do? A. Under the conditions and the funds we have and everything, it is everything we could expect. Q. Are the relatives of the patients as a rule satisfied that you know ? A. Some are, and some are not. I get few complaints I cannot reasonably explain away. I sometimes find people who are not satisfied, but not often. I have very little trouble in that way. 0. Have you any that you think are being unjustly retained here? A. No. Q. None at all ? A. I have some I hope the doctor will be able to release. Q. Is it your rule to recommend a release as soon as you safely can? A. Yes, sir, and I have made some mistakes in recommending them too soon. Q. Is that a difficult question? A. Yes, sir. We had one woman who came here from McColl. This patient came in perfectly quietly 291 and seemed to have nothing wrong with her, and we wondered why they had sent her. Her husband took fever at home and was in a condition where he needed her. We were walking across the yard going to the new kitchen, and I asked the doctor to let her go home and he let her go. That woman was discharged on a Monday and within three days, I think, I got a telegram saying that he would have to bring his wife. He and two other men brought her. They got her as far as the steps and it took the hall servant to help bring her in. She was in such a condition at first that I found it impossible to move her. We had to put her in straps at first. I say that I was largely responsible for the woman’s going home. In another case which we had which came and staid quite a long time, and never showed any signs of insanity, and I wondered why they sent here here, and we began to wonder whether she ought not to be out, when she began to show her insanity and we had finally to put her on the acute ward. Then there was a case of a young woman. She was admitted as an emergency case. I received a message by telephone, and I prepared a room for her. She has not shown the slightest signs of insanity, showing how hard it is for us to know what to do. Q. Does Dr. Thompson and the supervisor of the white male department bear the same relation to the head of the institution that you do to the Superintendent? A. I am sorry 1 can’t tell you, because I do not know. Q. He is a physician? A. Who? Q. Dr. Thompson? A. Yes, sir. 0. And you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you an assistant? A. Second assistant. Q. And he is first? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you have a female supervisor on your side? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who? A. Miss Fannie Irwin. Q. Who has charge of the white convalescents? A. Dr. Babcock. 0. How many are there? A. 31 at present. 0. What building are they in ? A. Dix cottage. Q. Does Dr. Babcock give them his personal attention ? A. They are convalescent. They are usually sent home from the Dick’s cottage. It is a kind of sanitarium. We hold up the Dix cottage as an inducement. My patientss all have a regular treatment. Everv- body is received on my ward. I have no distinctions as far as social standing is concerned. Everybody rests upon a common level. Those who run a chance of getting well are put on the second ward. 292 The first ward is nice because it is clean. It is as clean as you can expect them to have it. The dining room service is nice. They take great pride in it. They stay there a little while before going to the Dix cottage. We hold out the Dix cottage as an induce¬ ment. They go there and stay under his own supervision. Q. Are they satisfied? A. Always. No reason why they should not be. Q. They are well treated out there? A. Always. Q. Is there any want of harmony between you and the head of the institution ? A. There has never been. I have always found him not only as a man— Q. Do you regard him as a competent man? A. I have never known a more competent man. Q. Is there any want of harmony between you and the Board of Regents? A. As far as I know there is not. I know very little of them. Q. You have practically charge of the female whites? A. Except 31 . Mr. Sawyer—This morning Dr. Thompson testified in here in answer to a question that there was a feeling—Dr. Thompson testi¬ fied, as I understand, I think that is correct, that there was some feeling among the patients, as I understood him to say, against Dr. Babcock, against the Superintendent, some kind of feeling. You have five hundred women under you, and I want to know if you know whether there is any such feeling among them? A. No. My patients always speak of him in the highest terms. They are constantly tell¬ ing me how much better he is to them than I am. Dr. Babcock is unusually kind to them, and if I have any complaint to make against him it is his excessive kindness. Q. Do you know anything of that kind? A. That is the only objection I can find to him on my wards. 0. Do you know anything of this feeling in the institution? A. No, sir. Q. Have you heard anything of it? A. No, sir. Q. Did you know Dr. Thompson felt that way? A. I did not know anything about it. Q. Do you come in contact with Mr. Mitchell? A. Yes, sir. O. Do you know anything about his relations towards the Board of Regents and Dr. Babcock? A. As far as I know, perfectly friendly. I personally feel as if Mr. Mitchell regards me in a very kindly manner and Dr. Babcock as well. I know of nothing else. 293 Q. And you think Dr. Thompson does too? A. As far as I know. Q. You have absolutely no knowledge of the feeling among the men patients? A. I never come in contact with the men only at the dances, and there they are not allowed to talk. 0. And you think he is just as competent as any man you know? A. I do not mean to say that he is perfect. He is fully competent. Mr. Harrison—The inspections of your wards? Does the Super¬ intendent make regular inspections? A. Not regularly. He is in close touch with my department, sir. Q. He goes through your wards irregularly? A. Irregularly, but frequently. Q. Goes through the whole ward? A. Not through the whole ward. He has been. Q. What I mean, he makes an inspection of your department, does he not? A. Yes, sir. Q. And he goes through the wards literally from top to bottom, would you say on an average of once a week? A. No, I do not, because, Mr. Harrison, I could not speak truthfully to do it. Q. The evidence I want to bring is whether he makes inspec¬ tions? A. He makes inspections, but not regular inspections. Q. He comes through the female department say once a month, is that so? A. I don’t know that he does that. Q. You report to him verbally, do you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. You don’t make him any written report? A. No, I do not. Q. The Board of Regents also come over the wards, don't they, doctor? A. I have never escorted any of these gentlemen through my wards except Dr. Taylor. I have taken him through. Q. Do you know if the other members of the Board of Regents have been through? A. They have inspected the wards, but I have not inspected them. Q. You were informed that they were on the wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. You escorted Dr. Taylor through the entire wards, did you’ A. Not the entire building. He has been through quite a number of the wards on my department, because whenever I get any unusual case in which I do not care to take the responsibility I always call on Dr. Taylor. I have seen the other gentlemen. Q. Dr. Taylor always came willingly? A. Always would. Q. Whenever you have a special case for medical treatment or 294 anything of the kind you call on the doctor? A. I always call on him. Q. Is he always prompt? A. Always ready to come, not only that, but he comes at irregular times, whenever we need him. The head nurse in the department frequently calls him. Q. Both in the day and at night? A. He has been known often to come in late at night without being called. Q. When you call him in he always comes? A. Always. Q. Then, you go on those wards at night, don’t you? A. Always when called, day or night on any trivial case whatever. Q. You make voluntary excursions in there at night, do you? A. I do. Q. Have you a night watchman ? A. I have two. Q. They perform their duties so far as they are able to do so? A. I have been on my wards at almost every hour to see, and I have never failed to find my nurses busy. Q. Have you a system with a watchman’s clock? A. No. Q. Of course, you don’t know absolutely that they are on duty at all times? A. I have every reason to believe it, because I have been on the wards all times at night, early and late at night, from time to time. Q. And you believe it from that? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Sawyer—So far as Dr. Babcock is concerned in his visiting your ward, he is not directly a medical attendant over that depart¬ ment? A. No. Q. And you think if he had confidence enough in you to put you in that position, he visits you enough to see if you are performing your duty? A. I have always been conceited enough to believe that it was not necessary for him to come on my ward for that pur¬ pose. Q. You think he visits as often as is necessary for a Superintend¬ ent? A. I do. Q. To see that everything is going on? A. Yes. sir. If the doctor had no other duties than supervising duties I should expect him to come on my wards and make systematic visits, but I cannot expect it with the work he has. Q. You don't see how it would be possible? A. I don’t think it would be possible, and I know that it takes all my time. Q. From your experience you don't think it would be possible for him to do it ? A. I don’t see how he can do as much as he does. Mr. Sawyer—In your judgment, doctor, is not it better not to 295 have a military rule about making these visits? A. A special time to come and go? Q. Yes. A. It does a great deal of good sometimes. Q. Not to let them know always? A. I object from a good many standpoints to regular visits. Q. Irregular visits really answer better? A. Yes, sir. Q. The same thing with you? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison—You have hose on the wards? A. Yes, sir. Q. In a box? A. Yes, sir. Q. They are tested, aren’t they? A. I have never tested them. Q. Do you know if they have ever been tested? A. I don’t know, but I am not on my wards at all times, sir. Q. Are your nurses instructed to test it? A. Dr. Babcock has charge of that. Q. You have never issued any instructions? A. I have never. Q. Are your nurses instructed just what to do in case of fire? A. I have never instructed them. Q. Are you instructed what to do? A. Ring the fire alarm. Q. What else? A. Nothing more. Q. Turn in the fire alarm on the premises? A. Yes, sir. Q. You think, do you not, that you could get the patients from the wards if a fire should get beyond control, do you not? A. In some of the wards it could be done easily, though I have never been in a fire in the institution since I have been here. Q. You think, on the whole, you could get them out in case of a fire at night? A. It is hard to say, because I have never been in anything of the kind. I might be able to do it, and still I might not. Q. I wanted your opinion. You don’t think, do you, that there is danger of their being burned through the need of adequate pro¬ tection? Don’t you think that on your wards full and sufficient protective precautions are taken to guard them in case of fire ? A. On some of my wards I think it would be very hard to save every¬ body, for the simple reason that I have a great many that are unable to carry themselves or to walk, and with the number of attendant I have, I don't know that we could get them out. Mr. Sawyer—You could hardly wake up in this brick building and find the whole thing in flames. You can’t conceive of such a thing, of how it might be burned, and the patients not be gotten out, if the people keep their heads—that would not be likely? A. It is not likely that we would have a fire all over the place at once. Mr. Hardin—If the same number of people that you have in here were in a hotel in this city or any other city and it was to be burned, isn’t it likely that some would be burned? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Sawyer—Would it be your duty for you to go down into those boxes to know whether or not the hose are tested? A. I don’t think that is my work at all. Q. You don’t think that it is? A. No, sir; I think I have all I can do to attend to what I have. Mr. Harrison—I did not conceive that it was your duty to look into that matter from a medical standpoint at all ? A. It is not my business to know. Q. How about chemical extinguishers, have you any of them here? A. As far as I know there are none on the wards. O. Your exits from those wards are stairways, are they not? A. Yes, sir. 0. You have them in this wing? A. It corresponds with this wing. Q. What would call the whole institution ? What is the fire alarm for the institution, the alarm to awaken everybody in case of fire? A. I don’t know. I have never been here in a fire. Q. You don’t know anything about what would be the general alarm? A. Unless it would be the ringing of the bell at an unusual hour. The Chairman—There is a general rule, I believe, is there not, in case of fire for the nurses that are connected with the institution to save the patients and leave it to the fire department to save the property? A. We have instructions to save life regardless of property. Q. That is the fire instruction? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Sawyer—Since you have been here looking over the institu¬ tion both as to the male side and the female side, and the knowledge you have as to conditions here, the shortcomings, if there be such, and the lack of system that has been testified to, about the lack of system and discipline, and these charges which you no doubt have read, about the mismanagement, unwholesomeness of the food, and everything of that kind, the vermin, and the walls being filthy, and all those things—comparatively speaking, so far as you are able to say, making a reasonable comparison, taking everything into con¬ sideration, those conditions are mainly due to whatever extent they are, whether or not little or much, to the lack of enough assistance— no trained assistance ? A. I cannot answer anything about the male department for this reason. I don't know anything of the working of the men at all, and I cannot tell the circumstances or anything like that, but I do take into consideration this, that on the wards where the women are and the work is done by the women, I do expect more of the women than of the men. Q. If anything is necessary, the greatest thing is more help? A. Yes, sir. Q. In one of the institutions I visited they have twelve hundred patients and they have twelve or fourteen physicians, and to the number of patients they have got two or three times as many nurses as we have here. So, if there is anything needed, it is more assist¬ ants? A. I would sum everything up in more money. With that, we could get nurses on the men’s wards. We could get better fare, and we could have more conveniences for them. But today my patients, as I understand, get everything they need. They do not suffer for any attention, medical or otherwise. Q. As a matter of fact, the most of this conmplaint has come out of the white male ward and the colored male wards. Dr. Thompson, recalled, testified as follows: Mr. Bunch—In your testimony yesterday you attacked the sani¬ tary arrangements around the dairy. When did you see the dairy? A. Did I attack the sanitary conditions? I don’t remember exceot in this way, from a hospital standpoint, and I had not seen any milking. Q. Who was managing the dairy when you saw it? A. I think Mr. Branham. Q. Don't you know, as a matter of fact, that Mr. Hedgepath, the present incumbent, has been there for a number of years, doctor? A. I know he has been there several years. Q. You attacked the mess hall and the serving of the food in the mess hall. You also attacked the dishes in the ward, in that hall. Who selects the patients that go there to serve? A. From my department ? Q. Do they or not come from your department? A. My depart¬ ment. O. Is it, or is it not a fact, that Dr. Hyman several years ago asked to have that department transferred from me to him? A. That is what I understood, sir. 0. Did you not succeed Dr. Hyman? A. Yes, sir. O. Isn’t it natural to presume that you succeeded to the duties of 298 Dr. Hyman? A. If you remember I asked you something concern¬ ing the mess hall and the kitchen and you said you did not know exactly where you stood, as Dr. Hyman had taken it from your hands. Q. You condemned in a general way, and pretty severely, the preparation of the food in that kitchen, did you not do that? A. I did, yes, sir, from a sanitary standpoint. Q. You have been Superintendent here a good many times, acting Superintendent? A. Yes, sir. Q. You had the full power of the Superintendent while you held that position? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever make any suggestions to anybody with regard to that department? A. I don’t remember. Q. Could you have? A. I don’t remember. I talked on several occasions about the food. Q. You were in direct touch with the Regents of this institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you made your reports to them as Dr. Babcock did, when he was away? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever make a report to them as to these conditions? A. I did not to the Board of Regents, because I never attempted to change anything during the doctor’s absence. We discussed that, not especially about the dining rooms, but we discussed other mat¬ ters, and thought best not to make any changes at all. Q. You did make changes in other matters? A. We could have got more help of the same material that was there. It would be patients similar to those that were working there. Q. When you went to that dairy, you say the conditions that you did not like—were those conditions better or worse than when 1 took charge of the dairy? A. I don't think I visited it when they were milking, but they were cleaning up, and I did not notice. 1 don't remember exactly the words, but I don’t think I attempted, I will not be positive of my exact words, but I said I did not go there when they were milking. Q. Is it possible to keep from a hundred to a hundred and fifty cows in a stable without those cows dropping, dropping some excrement on the floor? A. It is impossible. 0. We have got a cement floor? A. We have. Q. Have you ever been told how often that dairy has been scoured? A. I could not tell you how often it has been scoured, but it has been often. Q. As a matter of fact that dairy has been scoured every day. A. I had reference to the patients that did the milking, to their condition, and it was not sanitary. Q. Do you ever remember, when we had hired men there to do that milking, that some of them were reported as having syphilis and gonorrhoea? A. Yes, sir. O. Has any patient that has been milking in that dairy since ever had gonorrhoea or syphilis? A. Never reported. Q. It would not be possible if Dr. Griffin would do his duty to keep those patients who had syphilis or gonorrhoea from going to the dairy ? A. I can state this, that there have been employees working about the dairy, when in the last two years I stopped a man from working and reported it to Dr. Babcock. Q. What man was that ? A. One of the regular employees, not a patient. Q. Was it the time you reported it to me? A. Yes, sir. Q. Didn’t I turn him off? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he ever have charge of that department? A. No, sir, not that I heard of. Q. What did he do? A. I heard he was handling things about the dairy at that time. Q. He was discharged immediately after you reported him, was he not? A. Since then I have heard— 0. That he is working as a farm hand? A. I have heard he was employed on the farm. I did not hear that he was connected with the milking. I did not have any recollection of it, Mr. Bunch, when I made -the statement. I was asked was it in a sanitary condition, would I consider it in a sanitary condition. I know how he was situated. I could not say it was perfectly sanitary. We all know how milk is, how contaminated milk is under the most careful handling. The Chairman—As I understand it, you did not intend to say that Mr. Bunch was responsible for the condition of affairs there in the kitchen ? A. I was laboring under a misapprehension. Or. several occasions I have gone to Mr. Bunch about the fare, and 1 was under the impression that it was a part of his business to attend to the kitchen, but I have learned since that that is not his business, and I withdraw that statement as to his being in charge of the kitchen, as being the head officer of the kitchen. Mr. Sawyer—What would have to be done to make it sanitary from a hospital standpoint? What would you say would be neces- 300 sary ? A. As we understand it now, I don't see how it can be made so. Mr. Carey—Why? A. With the patients working there. Mr. Sawyer—The principal thing is that these dirty negro patients milk? A. That is the point. 0. That is the worst part of it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Haven’t they got sense enough to know how to wash their hands? A. That is the condition not only in the dairy but through¬ out the building. I have been dealing with them for twenty years. The Chairman—As I understand it, they use patients sent out from the Taylor building? A. Yes, sir, they select the neatest and healthiest patients, and those less apt to run away. O. They are selected by those in authority over the Taylor building? A. Yes, sir. When we give the supervisor or man in charge patients to go to the dairy or out on the farm to work we caution him to watch them so that they will not run away. We have in a good many instances sent them out and they have run away. Therefore, we are hampered in getting the most intelligent patients to go to the dairy. Mr. Bunch—Do you, or do you not, know that the patients that go out to that dairy are divided after they get there, and some of them they use for carrying manure from the cows, and that those are used for feeding purposes, and that the best of them are used in milking the cows? A. I know there was a division as to that work. Mr. Sawyer—You testified here this morning that you had made some complaints, various complaints to Dr. Babcock about things needed over in that white male department, and that he would not make much reply. Do you feel or is it your opinion that Dr. Bab¬ cock shows any favoritism towards the female wards as compared to the male wards, shows any more attention to these female wards, any more than the nature of the case would demand? A. It has been my feeling for some time that wherever the doctor is mostly at these are the places that get the most attention. It brings his mind, his attention, to things that he is looking after. Q. Do you mean that he or any other man would not do more for the women than for the men? A. No, no more. 0. You don’t think he would rather do for them? A. I don’t think he meant to show any favoritism, but that has been where he has been working, He has not been working on my side for a number of years. Q. You are first assistant? A. Yes, sir. 301 Q. He would not visit you very often? A. No, sir. Q. Was not it perfectly natural elsewhere and leave it to you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You don't think he has shown any favoritism? A. Except in this way, as I stated, where the doctor goes, where he attends the most, there will be the most of the work done because he sees it, and always keeps, in other words, in touch with it. Q. You testified this morning that you had found that the patients, if I understood you, that the patients in this institution had some kind of feeling against Dr. Babcock, in your department ? A. I have heard several patients, not two, but several, make the remark that they never could see Dr. Babcock, also the Board of Regents, and that they could not get their requests through to him for whatever they might wish. I go to him for different things, and in that way it makes me feel that while they don’t suffer, they have the feeling that they are not attended to by the head officer of the institution as they should be. Q. Is not that uncomplimentary to you that they are not satisfied with what you do? A. If they want to get out I cannot discharge them. I say, I cannot release you, you must go to the head officer of the institution. Q. Do you know of any that you thought ought to be turned out ? A. I cannot recollect a single one. Q. You don’t know of any? A. That complaint is unjust, and one that arises when any officer walks through. Some have the same feeling towards me. Naturally with the head of the institution and their wishing to see him for a long time, why it makes that feeling greater against him. Mr. Carey—Wasn’t that the proper and regular way to reach him—through you? A. The only way. Mr. Sawyer—Do you think it is practical for him, with those other wards on his hands, to go around ? I notice you spoke about that a little and passed on. I understand that is a rule you have got here, for you to report these things to Dr. Babcock. Do you think it is possible for Dr. Babcock to listen to all such things? I heard a man, Mr. Berry, talking out there. He wanted to get out of here. That man talks sensibly. Here it goes into print that these men have feeling against Dr. Babcock. In your department you say it is because they don’t get to see him, because they do not get to talk to him? A. Don’t you think that is a feeling? O. Yes, sir, but it does not strike me that that kind of feeling 3°2 ought to go in our report that they have a feeling against Dr. Babcock, because they do not have a chance to see and talk to him. A. Of course, when they do not see him at all. Q. They never do see him? In your wards they do not see him? A. I stated the other day that I had not seen him there. Q. I imagine that the doctor would say that, after your twenty- eight years of faithful service, if there is anybody he could turn these matters over to it ought to be you. You ought to be the man? A. These reports do come through me to the doctor. Q. And there is an opportunity for that to be done? A. There is some feeling as to their not being allowed to see the head officer. I see them daily, not every one, but I see a majority of them twice a day and they come to me with these complaints. I don’t think he does his duty in that particular. I would not expect him to go over that ward every day, or every other day, but I think that if he could visit my wards occasionally, it would make the conditions better. Mr. Carey—Did you ever ask him to visit the wards ? A. I have not asked him, but I reported the things that I thought would be sufficient for him to know how things were there. Q. When you made reports to him, did you consider that that implied that he had confidence in you, or that he was negligent ? A. He would say, all right, I will attend to it, look into it, or something like that. He would not say for me to go on and correct it. Q. There was some special stress laid on this walking exercise that these patients should be permitted to do around here. I under¬ stand that you say that that is not required, that these patients were not forced to take any exercise, any regular exercise on the grounds or on the outside, how about that? A. No, sir. Q. Do you think it would be advisable to walk these patients outside of these grounds? A. A good many of them, if we had plenty of nurses, we could walk a good many on the farm. Q. Do you know of any institution where they walk around on the streets? A. We used to do it. O. Do you think it would be advisable to walk them around and let the public look at them and stare at them? Wouldn't that have a tendency to irritate them ? A. In some cases. 0. I don’t think, it exactly the proper thing for women and children in all conditions to see these patients. A. Some of them it would not be. I am not insisting upon taking them on the out¬ side. But we should have better arrangements for walking. O. Isn't it better really for the patients? Here is a large ground 303 and a very creditable ground compared with other institutions. Here is a large ground and every opportunity. Do you think it would prove more satisfactory to let them have the liberty of just going as they feel disposed, than it would be for them to march around in two’s? After awhile the pleasure would turn into work, and they would think that they would have to go. A. That is a matter of opinion. Q. I am asking for your opinion? A. I think exercise is very important. Q. Exercise, sunlight and fresh air, which do you think is best? You are an expert on these matters. Which do you think is best, which is best or most important of them, if you can say? A. The greatest part of the time here I think it would be best to walk them out, a number of them, not all. It is impossible to get them all out. The Chairman—What was the suggestion, if you had more nurses, you would like to be able to give them walks around the 360 acres as well as on the yard of one or two acres, is that it? A. That is it. We don’t take them on the streets. Very seldom we take a single one. We take them on the farm. Q. How many acres have you employed now? A. Three or four acres in there. Mr. Hardin—Are they ever permitted to go to any shows or circuses or anything of that kind? A. Very few. We did let a few go to the baseball last year, and there have been one or two that have been allowed to go to the theatre. Mr. Carey—It would be too exciting? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Hardin—Parades or anything like that ? A. Circuses or anything in the nature of parade on the streets? Q. Yes, do they seem to enjoy or like that? A. They enjoy it very much. The biggest part of the patients are anxious to go. They clamor to go. That is something unusual to them, and any¬ thing-that excites them, they seem to enjoy more. Mr. Bunch—Doctor, it was the custom of this institution for a number of years for all the patients that were able to go attended to the State Fairs, is that not right? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why was it discontinued? A. Because the fair grounds were removed to such a distance that it was impossible for us to get there. That was three or four or five years ago. Mr. Sawyer—These charges go a good long piece about the filth that is kept in these corridors. Did you observe that I had called this to the attention of Mr. Mitchell, and he testified that he 304 did not have authority to make these people do it, and you are right over him? A. Yes, sir. Q. And in daily contact with him? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you complained to Dr. Babcock, and he did not do it. Mr. Mitchell testified, as I understood him, that soiled tubs or buckets with filthy matter in them were left sitting right outside of the patient's doors. He testified, I think, that he would have them removed. A. I have myself moved those things. O. While Dr. Babcock was away, or even if Dr. Babcock was here, and von knew of those things, could you not force those things to be cleaned without taking it up with Dr. Babcock? A. I tried to have it done, but I had lost control of these nurses. Q. How did you lose control of them? A. Their fewness in number, their not being loyal, and also being unreliable. Mr. Carey—Do you have the same control over your wards that Dr. Saunders has over hers? A. The same power? Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, sir, but I cannot get the nurses to do as they should. They would just as leave give up their jobs. I don’t mean to say that all are that way, but there are a good many instances of that kind. Mr. Hardin—Did you ever have any patients to scour the wards, any servants of any kind, either patients or hired help? A. We had some colored females that came over once last year. Q. Was there any demand to have them over after that? A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. 0. I believe you stated yesterday, and it is very true, I think, as a general rule, that female patients are more cleanly and easier to manage than male patients? A. They are. 0. They are more cleanly? A. Females are natural housekeepers. Then, they have over on that side several scrubbers that do nothing but scrub. They go from ward to ward, from one to the other, and in that way they can keep down a lot of the bad odors and dirt, etc. During the last few years we have had the principal part of that work done by patients on the wards. Q. Generally speaking most any building where there are no ladies at all will become more or less unclean, is not that so? A. Yes, sir. I would like to say that I have not the least ill feeling towards Dr. Babcock or any officer of this institution. I just do not feel that my department has been in touch with those who could have helped me out if they had come around oftener. That is the 305 way I feel. I have done my best. I admit that part of this condi¬ tion is due to me, but I have done my best to correct it. Dr. Ray—Are not there chances for the nurses on your wards to get more lucrative positions on the outside more so than on the female side? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you get hold of a man and he proves beneficial to the institution, isn’t he immediately hired somewhere else and you cannot keep efficient nurses here ? A. That is certainly the condition about keeping male nurses here. Q. Why did you discontinue allowing patients to go out in the streets ? I remember when I was up here I used to see them go out into the streets frequently. A. My recollection is that we did not want them exposed to the gaze and stare of the city. Q. Don’t you think if they were allowed to do it now they would be subjected to the same gaze and stare? A. Not in the yard or on the farm. Q. Have we any places? A. We have driveways, no walks. Q. Not very good? A. No, sir, at certain seasons they are not. Q. When you were Superintendent last summer, did you make any reports of any repairs made by you as acting Superintendent? A. No, sir, except the ordinary daily reports. Q. You called the condition of these floors to the hoard on several occasions? A. Yes, sir. Q. And we were regretting the fact that we did not have the means. Isn't there a plan on foot to take up these and replace them by cement floors, which are to be put in as soon as we can get the means? A. There was a plan on foot to put those floors in certain parts of the building as soon as we could get the money to do it with. Q. Uncleanliness is not due to a lack of co-operation on the part of the Superintendent? A. Not if he had gone through and seen it. Q. Don’t you think you could have superintended that yourself? A. I tried to. Q. Soap and water has been furnished? A. Yes, sir. Q. You can’t expect men to be as clean as women? A. No, sir. Q. The feeling of the patients against Dr. Babcock is largely due to the fact that when they apply to you, all you will say is that you will have to see Dr. Babcock, and because he has to refuse these requests, don’t they get vexed with him for that? A. Vexed? J don’t know. 20—A. 3°6 Q. Every fellow that he lets get out says he is a fairly good man ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And those people he cannot possibly permit to get out are against him? A. Yes, sir, the longer he stays away the stronger this feeling grows. Q. Isn’t it impossible to visit your wards and do all the work he has to do? A. It looks as if you could not expect that. Q. If you have seen a patient and want to consult him, it is all right? A. Yes, sir. Q. It is physically impossible for him to come in contact with these inmates regularly. So far as vermin is concerned, those who are immediately in charge in your judgment are responsible, and not Dr. Babcock, if he supplies the means? A. If he had had the work done he intended to do. It was taken up six months ago, but it has never been done. Q. You spoke about the patients employed in the dairy. As a matter of fact, weren't we forced to do it by reason of the fact that the appropriation had not been enough to carry on the work, and we had to put the patients there to do that work to save money? A. Yes, sir. At the same time I heard it was to overcome a strike, too. Q. Then there was a strike? A. Yes, sir. Don’t understand that I am censuring. The question was asked if it was in a sanitary condition from a hospital point of view. That is why I made the statement. I did not mean to censure Dr. Babcock. The question was asked if from a hospital standpoint it was sanitary, was it in a sanitary condition. Air. Sawyer—When you read this testimony it will impress you that you said some pretty hard things about these conditions in your ward, and that that condition is due to a lack of co-operation, and on account of the fact that Dr. Babcock would not go and visit, that you could not get him to do these things, that there was a lack of system and these nurses would not do their work, and that you referred it to him and he would not turn them off, and it puts you in the position of testifying that he has been inefficient in the discharge of his duty as Superintendent. Dr. Ray—A certain man says, Dr. Thompson gave Dr. Babcock hell yesterday. A. That is the way I felt about it. I feel I did my duty about it. The Chairman—You don’t retract any of the testimony you gave this morning? A. I don’t see how I can. 30 / Mr. Sawyer—I think it was your business to clean it up. A. I admit I am at fault. I am willing to bear my part of it. Dr. Ray—I think, as far as cleanliness is concerned, it is your fault as far as you are able to deal with it. It is up to you. (The Commission thereupon adjourned until 18 May, 1909, at 11 130 A. M.) Columbia, S. C., May 18, 1909. Pursuant to adjournment, the Commission met this day at 3 o'clock P. M., the Chairman presiding. Present: All the members of the Commission except Dr. Sawyer. The Committee was called to order. The Chairman—The Committee has decided to ask the Regents if they desired to make any statement. Dr. Taylor—The statement of the Regents will be made by Dr. Babcock in accordance with the understanding last week, and the reasons for the investigation. Dr. Babcock —1 have not made any special preparation to make a statement of the affairs of the institution to the Commission. If you wish me to do so in an off-hand way, I can do so now. The Chairman—Would you prefer to have it postponed until tomorrow ? Dr. Babcock—I think it might be fairer to the Board of Regents if I had some notes or something of that kind to present to you. What you would like to have me say would be an account of the administration of the affairs of the institution since I have been here under the Board of Regents. Mr. Carey—We would like to have it in the nature of an exami¬ nation. Dr. Babcock—That suits me very well. The Chairman—We wish to get your suggestions either now or later as to what the Legislature should do. Dr. Babcock—I should like a little preparation on that. Whatever questions you wish to ask me, I am as well prepared now as I ever shall be, but as far as any comprehensive statement as to what I think the needs of the institution are, I don't think I can do justice to that in an off-hand way. I ought to be better prepared than I am at the present moment. I had no notice that I was to be called upon this afternoon. The Chairman—Would the Commission prefer to wait until later? 3°8 Mr. Hardin—In view of the fact that a member of our Committee is absent, Dr. Sawyer, we had better postpone his examination. Mr. Dick—I move that we postpone the hearing from Dr. Bab¬ cock, not only on account of Dr. Babcock, but in deference to Dr. Sawyer. Mr. Bunch—I am not prepared to make any suggestions or anything of that sort. I am just the agent of the board. I run the farm. I would be glad to answer any questions you wish to ask. Mr. Hardin—I would like to hear you in regard to the farm. Mr. Bunch—I would prefer that you ask me questions, and bring out anything you want to know about it. I am as well prepared now as I ever will be. Mr. J. W. Bunch, sworn, says: Mr. Hardin—Tell us how many acres you cultivate? A. I really don’t know just how many there are. There are 360 acres in the tract. There must be something like one hundred acres in the grounds and yards, and cow lots and hog lots, etc. So, that would leave us something like 250 acres in cultivation. Q. Tell us what you make on the farm? A. What we make? 0. I mean your crops of corn, cabbage, and things of that kind what grows on the farm? A. We grow corn, cabbage, beans, all kinds of vegetables pretty much, oats enough for the cows, etc. Q. What do you do with the vegetables grown on the farm? A. Feed them to the patients here, and we sold last year about $250.00 worth. 0 . The corn is used here at the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many head of cattle have you? A. The cattle vary all the time because we are butchering. I find that we killed last month, I think about 132, something like that. Q. Do you make enough milk to supply the institution? A. No. we do not. 0 . How many did you say you milked? A. About 132, say 130 in round numbers. They vary. They are constantly going dry, and coming in fresh cqnstantly. Q. Do you make enough roughness on the farm to feed the cattle ? A. We make all we use and sell some. Q. Really, you think the farm is more than self-sustaining? A. Well, in the reports it looks like it, sir. 0 . Can you give us any idea how much corn you made last year ? A. We estimate that we made from 7.500 bushels to 8,000 bushels. I have got some notes in the other room. 3°9 Q. I think we want that information. There have been charges here, and you can tell us? A. The amount of corn produced last year was 7,500 bushels, we had on hand the first day of January of this year. That is estimated, of course. We killed $1,644.80 worth of bacon and pork during the year. The value of the milk last year amounted to $18,233.55. The value of the vegetables used at the asylum last year amounted to $19,405.93. The profit on the farm, charging up all that we produced, all that we had on hand at the beginning of the year, all the labor and all expenses of other kinds, and deducting—crediting ourselves with what we furnished to the institution and what we had on hand during the progress of the year, we had during the year a profit of between nineteen and twenty thousand dollars on the farm investment. I had the editor of the Southern Cultivator to go over these items with me, and I asked him if he thought I had charged too much for anything. He said that I charged too little, that they were worth really more than I charged the institution. I have my annual report here. Q. Your farm is in a high state of cultivation? A. Yes, sir. I commenced this farm in 1891. At that time it was estimated that this farm produced six hundred and fifty bushels of corn. I came here in March, and they did not have a grain of corn or a blade of fodder on the place. They valued the bacon that year at $521.40. The value of the milk amounted to about four thousand dollars, and the value of the vegetables nearly three thousand dollars. 0 . You have a supply of hogs on hand now, have you not? A. Yes, sir, we have about four hundred hogs on hand at present, and I want to state in reference to the bacon proposition that while we have only $1,644.80 to our credit for last year’s bacon, the last fall was very warm, more so than usual, and the bulk of the bacon has been killed since the fiscal year ended on the first of January. If we could credit ourselves with the amount of bacon killed after the first of January, due to the warm weather, this would be increased very materially. Q. You raised quite a quantity of oats on the farm? A. We usually thresh about twenty-five hundred bushels after feeding the mules in rough oats a month or so. Q. How many mules have you on hand now? A. We have about eighteen head of mules on hand at the farm now. Not all of those are used on the farm, because it takes some of them to bring the milk. One does not do anything except at the dairy. Two others 3 ID do not do anything but bring in the milk and take out the slops, etc., the swill. Q. How much corn do you make to the acre as an average? A. I don't know about the average on the level about the soldiers’ home. We ran from seventy to seventy-five bushels on the whole place there. On some of the acres we made over a hundred bushels, but there were other places where it got badly burned, got caught in a drought in August and September, and some of that corn was pretty badly injured. We ought to have made a good deal more corn than we did. Q. You furnish corn to be ground into grits for the institution? A. It is raised on the farm, all raised on the farm—not all, practically all. Sometimes the mill gets out of order and we buy a few sacks of meal or grits. Q. You have never sent any corn to be ground that had weevils in it ? A. I cannot say that. It is impossible almost to keep the weevils out, but the meal and grits is a good deal better than we can buy. I am always glad to get home-raised corn meal myself, I prefer it. Q. Don't you regard that as more wholesome? A. Certainly. It is sweeter and more nutritious. All Southern corn is more whole¬ some than Northern and Western corn because it has a longer period in which to mature, and it is fully ripened in the fields. At the North it cannot be done so well as here. 0 . You have charge of the dairy? A. Yes, sir. Q. Tell how you have the milking done there? A. The milking is done solely by patients. Q. Have you cement floors there? A. Yes, sir, we scour that dairy once a day. The men are expected to bathe their hands every time before they milk and bathe the cow’s udders. Q. Are your cattle in a healthy condition? A. I think they are in the best condition of anybody’s I know of at all. They have that appearance. Mr. Harrison-—Mr. Bunch, why is the milking done by the patients ? Explain to the Committee. A. I will be glad to. Several years ago we had great difficulty in keeping hired men. There was a strike on and they dropped out. That was one reason. I had been advocating this to Dr. Babcock before that, though. I said that the patients would be better for other reasons. One is a sanitary reason. When I had hired men there, negroes, it was impossible to get them to change their clothes at all. We could not force them to bathe, and they were frequently reported to me as being afflicted with gonorrhoea and syphilis, and I had to fire several men there on that account, and I think myself that the patient labor is decidedly the better proposition outside of an economical one. Q. Do you pay the patients for their labor? A. We pay them a nominal sum. We pay them a dollar a month, the regular patients, and then we have some that we pay more as they are getting better, and it is a step towards going home. We sometimes pay them a little more money for a short period. Q. You keep them there until you find out whether they are ready to go home? A. Yes, sir. 0 . It is charged that the operation of the farm connected with the hospital is expensive and not businesslike, and that by reason thereof many such articles as flour, bacon, meal, grits, cabbages and potatoes, and other articles have to be bought which are used, have to be bought instead of raised on the farm. That is one of the charges. That is one of the charges that you are called upon to answer? A. I would rather that some one else would answer whether it is conducted on businesslike principles. Q. You have charge of it. You can tell how you manage it? A. I do the best I can to conduct it on a businesslike principle. Q. The amount you raise strikes me— A. I study this harder than anything else in the world. 1 take more interest in it than I do in anything else besides my own family. I take four or five agricultural papers that I get through mv work here. I spend two hours on an average every night gleaning those papers for new ideas in farming, and I try to adopt all that I think are worth any¬ thing. Q. Would it be possible for you to raise wheat on that farm to make flour economically? A. No, not as an economical proposition. You can raise more of something else. Q. As an ecnomical proposition? A. No, not in my judgment. It has been tried, and in this section here it is not a profitable crop. Mr. Bates—Do you use any commercial fertilizers? A. Yes, sir. We use a small quantity. We have been using about six hundred dollars’ worth of commercial fertilizer each year. Q. Do you get any manure from the cows that you use on the farm? A. Yes, sir, we get thousands of loads of that. We are hauling all winter from those cattle. O. What do you feed your hogs on ? A. Almost entirely on the swill from the institution here. 3 12 Mr. Harrison—As I understand it, you are farming on the inten¬ sive system? A. Yes, sir. Q. And this fertilizer that you get from your cows is continually enriching the land? A. Yes, sir. Q. You are leaving out such crops as cotton and wheat, particu¬ larly cotton, to a certain extent just on that basis? A. Yes, partly so, outside of everything else. We could not make sufficient on the amount of land we have got here to plant all those things. In the crops that we are planting we have selected the most profita¬ ble ones to us, and tend the land as best we can so as to supply the institution. Q. In that connection, with a wider area, with more farming lands, say, one acre per patient, would it not be possible to carry on the institution with much more economy than it is done now, in your judgment? A. Well, if you get the right kind, yes; if the wrong kind, no, Q. Don't you think if you improve this land out here that way you can improve a larger one? A. Yes, with the same means. If we get a larger area, we will have to cut off the force here. Q. By raising ensilage, peas, corn, etc., that land would continue to grow better and more valuable to the institution, would it not? A. Yes, if we had more land we would have to resort to more legum¬ inous crops than we do. As it is now, we get a plenty of humus from the stable manure, and it is not necessary for us to do so. Q. To get at this thing from another point of view, the popula¬ tion at this time is fifteen hundred people. How much land would you think you must have—fifteen hundred acres? Would you think that would be sufficient? I mean average South Carolina lands. A. Yes, it would be better, provided you could get improved lands, but if you improve poor lands, you may be in a worse fix than now. Q. Taking an average? A. Yes, more lands would be an advantage. Q. Would it not be in your judgrrfent economical and profitable to the institution and the taxpayers of South Carolina to have at least fifteen hundred acres connected with an institution of this size? A. Yes, sir, I think so. I am satisfied, because we could raise more bacon and things of that kind than we do now. Q. With the prospect of further enlargement? A. Yes, sir. we would need that much at least. 0 . In that matter of bacon. You stated that you killed most of it in the fall of the year. If you had here a refrigerating plant, an 313 ice plant in which you would have brine pipes, w r ould it not be possible for you to kill meat at any season? A. Yes, sir, and the refrigerating plant would pay for itself in the meat we would save alone, outside of any other consideration. Q. About what does the institution expend for ice a year? A. They spent last year $1,532.00. 0 : Do you know anything about the cost of producing ice with the most modern machinery? A. I have been told that it can be produced at ten cents a hundred. This information is about six or eight years old though. Q. There is a machine built in Charlotte that guarantees a pro¬ duction for one dollar per ton. Suppose it guaranteed the produc¬ tion of ice at one dollar per ton, how much would it cost you to install such an ice and refrigerating plant here? A. I am sorry I can’t give that information. I am not posted. I know- we thought a plant that would make enough ice for our institution would cost eight or ten thousand dollars. That was some several years ago, six or seven years ago. Q. That class of machinery has been very much reduced in price since then? A. Yes, sir, not only that, but it is very much improved in efficiency. Q. About what number of tons per day would it take to run you. I am not speaking of ice you would have to use in the refrigerating plant, because if you had an ice plant that would not be necessary. What do you use here just as you stand—-simply the ice necessary to use on the outside for outside purposes? A. It is like other •things. You could use a whole lot, and then you need not. I believe eight or ten tons could be economically used here now. O. Per day? A. Yes, sir, a day. Q. Suppose you would eliminate the milk spoiling and the meat spoiling? A. That would reduce it. That would cut it in half at least, sir. 0 . Would a pound per patient, or say two pounds per patient a day, would that be sufficient, that much for the patients themselves ? A. That would be ample. 0 . Then, with a refrigerating apparatus, a two-ton machine would really do the work? A. Providing we had a refrigerating apparatus for other things, of course. Q. What I am trying to get out is this. The cost of a building containing refrigerating rooms and storage rooms necessary for this ice production, and the two-ton machine say, and storage 3*4 rooms for the milk, meats, etc., in connection with it, which, of course, would be an economy—that same machine would make ice for both? A. That would require a larger machine. Q. It would require a larger compresser. That woould be the only thing? A. It would require additional steam, etc. Q. I am speaking independently of the boiler plant, the compresser and the apparatus. Wouldn't it be possible under the present prices to put in such a machine as large as that for six thousand dollars? A. I should think so. Q. Don't you think it would be an economy ? A. I presume so from what I learn of the few companies that are making ice. I am not familiar with that at all. Q. At the present rate of buying ice it would mean an income of fifteen hundred dollars a year on a six thousand dollar investment? A. Well, it would be more than that for the reason that we some¬ times lose considerable meat here by spoiling, and if we had the appliances for saving this meat, that would add to the profits of the machinery, of course. Not only that, if we had a plant of sufficient size, we could save vegetables, turnips, etc., indefinitely, and that would be a considerable item in an institution the size of this. Q. The lack of an ice plant is an economical loss to the taxpayers? A. I think it is a positive necessity to this institution, sir. Mr. Carey—You have the farm and the dairy under you? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the extent of your authority? A. I don't know just what the extent is. Q. It covers those? A. It covers those all right. Q. Those are absolutely under you? A. Yes, sir. Q. You feel yourself responsible for both of them? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the farm making when you first took charge of it compared with now ? A. It made 650 bushels of corn then; 7,500 now. I get this from my annual report. This is the authority I am going by. The value of the bacon then was $521.40; this year $1,644.80; last year $2,492.90. Q. You are giving the respective yields before you took charge and now? A. Yes, sir. The value of the milk before I took charge was $4,202.72; last year it was $18,233.50. Q. The value of vegetables? A. It was $2,994.00; last year $19,405.93. 0 . That was the difference between 1891 and 1908? A. 1890 and 3i5 1908. You see the reports were printed. The printed reports were for two years originally—for 1890-91, etc. Q. Who had charge of it before you ? A. Mr. Green, I think, had charge of it, but I don't think he gave it his attention much at all. He was a very old man, from what I understand. Q. You cultivate more land? A. A good deal more. We have a good deal more land than he had. Q. In 1891 you got the Wallace land? A. O, yes, sir, the farm¬ ing operations have been very much enlarged since then. Q. Do you have to buy much corn, meal, and produce generally? A. We buy very little. We buy Irish potatoes. 1 am bound to tell you that I am a failure on Irish potatoes since I have been in Colum¬ bia. I succeeded very nicely on my farm near Augusta, but since I have moved to Columbia I have lost the art. Q. What about the soil? A. Partly the soil and partly the bugs, and it may be partly the management. I don't know just what it is. I have done the best I can, but this thing of planting ten bushels and getting from seventy-five to a hundred bushels is not a paying proposition. Q. It is cheaper to buy them? A. And then it is a fight against the bugs from the time they come up. We had to keep a squad of patients in there. We could not use Paris Green as I could out¬ side. If I had, possibly I might have made considerably more potatoes, but we had to eliminate that on account of the patients. Q. How about cabbage ? Do you buy any of them ? A. Buy very little. I suppose for this year we have bought cabbage enough to run us one month. Q. Corn and meal, do you buy that? A. Just a little when the mill breaks down, or something like that. Then we buy a sack or two until it is repaired. Q. You make corn enough to run you? A. Yes, sir. Q. You have more than enough corn to carry you? A. Yes, sir. We have sold several hundred bushels of seed corn. I give in the aggregate something like a hundred bushels for free distribution. Q. Do you buy much meat? A. Yes, sir, considerable. Our consumption of bacon amounts to from two to three thousand pounds a week. We have to buy quite a lot of bacon. Q. Your hog farm cannot furnish enough for that? A. No, sir, nothing like that. Q. How do you feed your cattle? A. The cattle are fed on ensilage, cotton seed meal and bran. 316 0 . Do you make that here? A. We do not make the cotton seed meal and the bran. We make the ensilage. We put up fifteen hundred tons of ensilage last fall. Q. Enough to last you? A. Yes, sir, through the year. We have been carrying over two or three hundred tons at the end of the year. We have a plenty of this all the summer. It would be better if we had pasturage, but we have no pasturage here at all. The cows are turned out for a little exercise, and then turned back. 0 . Your cows are in fine fix? A. In good condition. Outside of two or three they are fat enough for beef, I think. Q. How many are you milking now? A. About 130. Q. Who is the dairyman that you have out there in charge of that dairy? A. We have no practical man. Q. Is there a white man? A. One that overlooks and does the weighing, and sees that the men get in on time. 0 . Who is he? A. Hedgepath. O. Who selects the patients ? A. They are selected in the wards. I suppose Dr. Griffin does it. O. Where do they come from? A. The colored men’s depart¬ ment. Q. You have seen enough to know whether they are fit for that character of work or not—those that do the work? A. So far as I am concerned, I would rather have patients milk for me, for I know they bathe occasionally, and that is is more than you can get from an outsider. Of course, it is like all other things, there is some preju¬ dice about it. Q. It is charged here that those patients are dirty and filthy? A. They are not as much so as the hired men we had here, because I know when they go and come. They haven’t the same odor those other men had, nothing like it. 0 . Do you know whether the rule is carried out about bathing and bathing the cow’s udders? A. I am told that it is done and the appliances are there. I am not certain. I have not the time to devote to these details. Q. Is this a white man that has charge of the milking? A. Yes, sir, he has nothing else in the world to do. Q. Is he here now? A. At the farm, yes, sir. He weighs the milk and sends it over here, and sends me a report of the weight once a month, and I make monthly reports to the Board of Regents. Q. How do you make that—by weight? A. All weighed. 317 Q. And sent to you ? A. Once a month, at the end of each month we make a report to the board. Q. What is your method of dealing- with the institution? What¬ ever you turn over to the institution, you charge to the institution? A. Whatever it gets we charge up at wholesale rates. Q. And you make a report of that? A. Make a report of that once a month. Q. Who do you make the report to? A. To the Board of Regents. Q. And it is submitted to them at their monthly meetings, is it? A. And the annual report is made up from those monthly reports. Q. You keep it just like a farmer selling to the institution, do you not? A. Just exactly, and make a note of whatever we get from the institution, and charge ourselves with it. Q. You keep an account of receipts from the institution and of what you furnish to the institution, and in that way you know what the farm is paying? A. Yes, sir. Q. From your experience in the management of that farm and dairy, what, in your judgment, is it worth to the institution? I don’t mean in dollars and cents. A. It is absolutely necessary, in my opinion. Q. Does it serve a purpose nothing else would serve? A. It cer¬ tainly does. It would be impossible for us to get fresh vegetables from the Columbia market, and it would be impossible to get any¬ thing like the quantity of milk that we get from this dairy. Q. And you would have to buy it? A. Yes, sir; besides it is sub¬ ject to all the fluctuations of the market. Q. You use the milk instead of making butter? A. Use sweet milk entirely. We do not convert any of it into butter. O. How do you get your beef? A. We buy them and put them over there and fatten them, and they are killed there under our supervision. Q. Do you get a good quality of beef? A. We have an oppor¬ tunity now of inspecting the beeves that we kill, and if they are not all right we condemn them. When your Commission here was in session my son called me to the door. I went there and he stated to me that the butcher wanted to see me, and I went outside, and he stated to me that I had told him to report to me any time that he found that any beef was wrong at all. Now, I have killed one of the fattest beeves that I have ever seen and found that it had tuberculosis. He said he thought it was all right, but I had told him to report it, and I told him to take it and bury it. If we had 3iS put that beef on the market here in my opinion there would not have been any question about it at all. It would have been brought in here and used. Q. Who makes the inspection? A. The man that butchers the beef. We get the best man that we can find. 0 . You kill your own beeves? A. Yes, sir. Q. Turn them over to your butcher and he kills them for you? A. One of the employees here does the butchering, and he is paid extra for butchering. 0 . Is he the man that makes this inspection? A. Yes, sir; he is a very reliable colored man, a man with some little education. Q. And you fatten those cows ? Do you fatten them on ensilage ? A. No, that is for the milkers. 0 . On what? A. Stover and cotton seed meal. Q. How do you get that? A. That is the corn stalks, shucks, etc., that is run through the shucking and shredding machine. It is then packed into bales. It is the entire corn stalk, fodder and everything. We don’t strip fodder here at all. O. Is it good for the purpose? A. Nothing better. It is, I think, worth four or five times what cotton seed hulls are. Those sort of things are used mostly as fillers. Q. What do you do with the calves ? A. They are kept until they are five or six weeks old and are converted into veal for the insti¬ tution. Mr. Harrison—Tell the Commission why it was you adopted the plan of killing your own beeves? Explain that to the Commission. A. We adopted it for the reason that we found that we were being imposed upon, and we could not help ourselves very well. We adver¬ tised for the best beef and gave out contracts for the best beef we could procure on this market, and when we would give out the contracts we would have trouble constantly in getting the better quality of beef. It was reported to me, and we had constant trouble with regard to condemning it. We did not quit it, and could not quit it, and the asylum was a sort of clearing house. There is no question of it at all. If there was a crippled cow that no other butcher would have we got it. O. Your lands over there have been brought up and improved much within the last ten or twelve years? A. Improved very much. The property that we bought from the Wallace estate produced under good management the first year about ten bushels of corn, but since it has made from forty to fifty and up to seventy and seventy-five. Q. Your idea is that as long as this institution runs this farm ought to be kept and enlarged if possible? A. I certainly think so. Q. How about the chances of enlargement? Are there any lands around here? A. No, sir, unless you run out the land promoters. Q. For farming purposes it would not be a practicable proposi¬ tion to buy lands around here, would it, close around Columbia? A. No, I suppose not. I know there was a little piece of land that was offered here, and they wanted fifteen hundred dollars an acre. Dr. Babcock says it is two thousand now. If he had bought it two years ago he could have gotten it at fifteen hundred. Q. Most of the things you need, you make sufficient of them here, meal, vegetables—you are making nearly all you use now on the farm? A. Yes, sir, for our own consumption. Q. Your hogs, you feed them from the— A. Swill, mostly. Every little while we have to give them a change and feed them a little. Q. How many hogs have you now? A. Something like four hundred, that is, little and big. Q. Have you a man in charge of them? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is his name? A. We have three or four. They are not in charge of a white man, only a negro. Q. How about the use of those patients to labor on the farm? Do you use much of it, many on the farm? A. We have two squads there most all the summer. We don't have very many in the winter, but in the summer we have one colored squad and one white squad usually. Q. How many in a squad? A. From a dozen to fifteen. Q. The better class of patients? A. No, just such men as will consent to go out there, that type of men. Q. They are not forced? A. No, sir, not at all. O. They prefer to do that? A. There are some of the patients that prefer to go out. If they want to work, they do so; if not, they do not. Q. Is that the rule, they work when they want to and quit when they want to? A. Yes, sir, no compulsion at all. Q. No force? A. None at all. The doctor encourages them by giving them a little extra food, and extra tobacco and things like that, and extra clothing. 320 Q. That is true of both white and black? A. I assume the responsibility to do that myself. Q. Both white and black? A. Both white and black, yes, sir. They are treated exactly alike, from twelve to fifteen each. Q. Those things that are served in this institution, vegetables, corn, grits, and all those things, are they as good as you can buy in town ? A. They are better than you can buy in town. This meal that you are talking so much about, I would be glad to buy meal up town and swap it for this. Q. This grits and meal? A. Yes, sir, I would be delighted to buy it down town and swap it here. I have been a little afraid to do it because somebody would criticise me. Q. It is just as good as you can get on the market? A. Just as good, and it is on account of the lack of preparation which is not so good for the reason that there are so many to be served that it is impossible to prepare those vegetables and things as they are prepared in most families, and that is the reason of the complaint about them. Q. It is no fault of the material? A. None whatever. Q. Do you have anything to do with the kitchen? A. I go in there, I suspect, oftener than most anybody else does. Q. What is your judgment about the way things are run in there? A. My judgment is this, that the kitchen has a capacity for prepar¬ ing meals for about three hundred patients, and it is preparing meals for from one thousand to twelve hundred patients for the last several years. Q. That is the main kitchen? A. Yes, sir. The United States navy employs one cook to every fifty enlisted men. Each cook in this kitchen here has been preparing food for about two hundred patients and employees together. 0 . Do you know this man Earle? A. Yes, sir. . Q. Is he a pretty capable man ? A. I regard him so. I don’t say he is a first-class cook, or anything of that sort, but I recommended him to Dr. Babcock, and I would not hesitate to recommend him to you or anybody else. Q. Does he cook himself or oversee it? A. He just overlooks it. The cooks themselves are under him. He just overlooks it. Q. The hired cooks in there, how are they? A. There are some good, some bad and some indifferent. It is impossible to keep good cooks all the time at the wages we pay. 32 1 Q. The patients that work in there, what class of patients are they ? A. About as good as we have got. They are usually selected from the colored men. I think two white men work in there now. Q. Your idea is that the kitchen ought to be enlarged or a new one built? A. I certainly think so. Q. What part of the building would you put it in ? A. I don’t know. Q. If it remains where it is— A. There are two propositions that I would make along that line. Q. What are they? A. One proposition is that I would buy another large range and put it at the new building down there, and I would attempt to cook for all the white women there. Let all the white women from this kitchen aid that cook at the new building. I would then buy another range, and would put it into the Parker building, and would do all the cooking for the colored men there, and that would leave the white men and the outside employees for the center building kitchen. That is one proposition. Q. What is the other proposition ? A. The other proposition, and a better one, is to convert the present store room into a kitchen. It is a good deal larger than the kitchen we have over here, and it is better adapted in a good many ways. By coverting that into a kitchen we could build a store room elsewhere, and I think that would be sufficient. While you are along that line, I am absolutely opposed to steam cooking. When you come to quality, it is impossi¬ ble always to cook your meals satisfactorily with steam. You can cook more economically, and perhaps more thoroughly, but you can’t get the quality out of steam cooking. Q. That is the cooking system here? A. It is in the center building, but nowhere else. That is the reason that there is so much more dissatisfaction at the center building than anywhere else. The others all use ranges for their cooking. Q. Is the food better prepared in the others? A. Decidedly better. Q. What do you think the trouble in the kitchen is? You have stated the overcrowding of the cooks, in fact, that it was not big enough. What have you got to say about the stuff actually cooked, the actual preparation ? A. It could not be remedied with the means at hand. It is impossible to do it. Q. Is it a question of more money? A. I suppose that would be the solution of the question in the end. In the first place, we need 21—A. 322 more cooks, and if we got more cooks we haven't room enough for them. It is too much crowded and cramped as it is. Q. Is there any reason why they cannot cook rice and hominy as it is? A. Yes. Q. Why? A. Because they cook by steam. O. You think that accounts for the condition of the rice and hominy? A. I don’t think that there is any question that at the present time it is responsible for a large portion of it. Mr. Hardin—That is largely due to the large quantities that are cooked? A. Large quantities? Q. You can't code a large quantity of hominy in a large oven like you could in a private family? A. You can’t do the stirring. Mr. Carey—What is the trouble with the baker’s bread, Mr. Bunch? A. I don’t think there is much trouble with that. I think it will compare very favorably with what you buy on the market here. Occasionally it is off, but it is not as a general thing. Q. As a general thing you regard that as good? A. As a general rule as good as we can get in Columbia. Q. Would it pay to get a kneading machine for that purpose? It is kneaded with the hands here? A. Yes, sir, altogether. Q. When it comes to the dining room part of it, do you have anything to do with that? A. I believe it was proved by a witness here the other day that I did not have anything to do with it, but inasmuch as you ask the question, I will say that I go in there two or three times a week and oftener. Q. Having been here a good long while your suggestions ought to be worth something? A. The dining room is as good as it was when I came here, conducted on the same plans exactly for the class of patients that eat there. I don’t see how you could improve it very much. Q. How is the food served out? A. Served out by the patients, but these patients are selected from the Parker building. O. Served warm or cold? A. Usually served warm, nearly always warm. I don’t know that I ever saw it cold except at supper. We never have warm suppers, you know. O. Do you know anything about these complaints of cruelty by the nurses in there? Have you ever seen any of that going on? A. I have learned more since I have been in your committee room than I ever knew before. Q. Have you ever seen any nurses at it ? A. None whatever. O. What is the custom of Dr. Babcock in regard to those matters ? 323 A. He has done the best he could. I have gone to him and he has always co-operated with me. We have gone together repeatedly. He has come to me and I to him. At least he sent for me, and I went. Q. Did he ever show any unwillingness? A. No, sir. On the other hand, he has shown quite an anxiety to aid in anything towards the betterment of the affairs down there every time I went to him at all. Every time he sent for me we went together. Q. And you and the doctor co-operated in the farm department? A. Thoroughly. Q. Any friction? A. The doctor lets me have entire control of the farm. 0 . You are lord of all you survey on the farm? A. Yes, sir. Q. You are a practical farmer yourself? A. Born on it and raised on it. I know more about that than anything else. Q. You have been here since when? A. Since March, 1891. Q. Your judgment is that the farm and its operation is a suc¬ cess and not a failure, is that right? A. That is not my judgment. That is a truth. There is no question of that at all. Q. It is a fact? A. Yes, sir, it is a fact. There is no doubt about that at all. Mr. Harrison—In case the kitchen was moved as you suggested into your store room, you would have to use the upper part of that store room for some other purpose on account of the steam? A. Yes, sir, it could be used as an amusement hall or something of that sort. Q. In case that change was made and you constructed this house which you think could be done for, say, six thousand dollars, that would give you both a store house and an ice house together? A. I don’t know that a compound building could be erected for that money, and, really, it is just a matter of judgment on my part, remember. Q. Would not that allow a relief of Tie congested condition in the front part of this building? A. No question about that. Q. When that is done, could not you take your offices and shove them back ? A. Into the chapel ? Q. Yes. A. O, yes, it could be done. 0 . It would be impossible now on account of the steam from the engine? A. Yes, sir. Q. This part of the building could be used for reception, couldn’t it? A. Receiving and reception rooms, or anything else you choose 3 2 4 to use it for. Understand. I am saying this without consultation with the Board of Regents, the Superintendent, or anybody else. Q. To follow out that thought just a little bit—in your office arrangements here, is not the present congested condition of your offices here; does it, or does it not, interfere with your work? A. It reaches all departments of the institution. There is no doubt about that. Q. Are visitors liable to come in on you ? A. O. yes, they do. Q. Interrupt you? A. Yes, sir. 0 . That then would reduce your efficiency from that point of view ? A. It would add very much to my work, and to the efficiency of the office force. Q. I am trying to get at it from an economical standpoint. In case that was done, the chapel could be used, the present chapel and amusement hall could be used as a chapel? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the chapel is really unnecessary? A. I have always thought it. That hall is vacant nine-tenths of the time, and the preaching and the amusements are not going on at one and the same time, and for that reason it could very well be used for the same purpose. 0 . Does not the present location of the kitchen result in odors coming from the hall throughout that part of the institution? A. Odors where they are cooking down stairs permeate the whole build¬ ing. even to our offices at the front. Mr. Harrison—That chapel is used two or three times a week? A. Yes, sir, just about. Q. Would not the building of this ice plant and storage house that we decided would be a great economical gain to the institution and to the taxpayer—it would not be a very expensive proposition to move that kitchen, would it? A. No. Q. It would be a very inexpensive proposition, also, to divide that chapel and put these offices back there? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then, to combine the whole subject, is not the present system that is used there from the standpoint of equipment a very great economical loss to the institution and to the taxpayer, in your judg¬ ment? A. It certainly is. Mr. Carey—I believe you do all the buying? A. Yes, sir. I say all, practically all. I don’t buy the drugs and things of that kind in the medical department. O. The supplies ? A. I buy all the supplies. 0 . What quality of stuff do you buy? A. I buy the best meats 325 that I can get. Take the hams, for instance. I would pay more if I bought small hams, but it is not necessary to pay more, if we get the same quality, and at from two to three cents less per pound. Q. What kind of rice? A. It is called South Caolina small rice. It is small rice. They have it small, medium and large. I buy South Carolina small rice. Q. It is a pretty good variety of rice? A. I have been told by planters down on the coast that they use that grade of rice for their families, but I do not know this to be a fact. It is as good a grade, but a smaller grade. Q. How about the prices? A. It is less than the others. Q. Broken rice? A. We sometimes get it broken a little, but whenever we can we get what is called South Carolina small rice, small grains, of course, and more or less broken grains in that grade of rice. 0 . How do you account for the condition of the cooked rice in that kitchen? Some describe it as blue and gluey, and such as that? A. You know there is some art about cooking rice. If you take a lot of rice and put it in a pot and boil it like you were going to make a pot of glue, you get glue out of it. I suppose, on account of the rush, it has not had the attention that it should have had. I don’t know just how to account for it. I could not cook anything. I could not cook a hoecake to save my life. Q. Clothes. Are most of the clothes made in the institution ? A. Yes, sir. Q. By whom? A. The patients. O. How do you buy the material? A. Sometimes one place and sometimes another. It is so now that drummers come here. The last two years we have been able to pick up the most of these things at South Carolina mills. Whenever I can I give the preference to the home mills, the prices being equal. 0 . Quality? A. Strong but not fine. Q. Comfortable and strong? A. Yes, sir. In the line of clothes we have, for summer wear, been fortunate enough t o lay in a supply of khaki uniforms from the United States Government five or six years ago, and we have still enough to run us two or three years. The sizes are giving us trouble now, and we have only the small sizes left. O. Do you buy coal, too? A. The coal purchases are usually left to the Board of Regents, and they direct, when they don’t buy it 326 themselves, they direct Dr. Babcock to buy. We buy at the lowest figure always. O. How much coal does it take to run you ? A. About a thousand tons of anthracite and about a thousand tons of bituminous. Q. What is the average price? A. The average price this year? We are paying $6.27 for anthracite. We haven’t loaded ourselves with bituminous, but I suppose it will cost us something like one dollar at the mines, $3.45, that is the freight—that is for the- -coal. If we buy Tennessee, it is cheaper, but it is not economy to do so. Q. Do you buy in the summer time? A. Always buy in the spring. Q. You have it laid in? A. Yes, sir. Q. You have facilities for getting it to the buildings, have you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. You don’t have to haul it? A. Not at all. The institution put in a spur track about eight or ten years ago. 0 . That is on its own land ? A. It is owned by the institution itself. Q. How often does the Board of Regents meet? A. Once a month. Q. How long do they usually continue in session? A. That is owing to the amount of business they have to do. They are usually in session from four to five hours. Q. Do they divide out the work among them ? A. They divide it out into committees. Q. Who looks after your department? A. Mr. Glenn and Mr. Jones, I believe. Q. Those two? A. Yes, sir. Q. Both farmers? A. Yes, sir. Q. How much attention do they give to it? A. They come out there and look it over and see that I am doing my duty. They do that very often. Q. Do they make suggestions ? A. Yes, sir, sometimes. Q. That is, Mr. Jones and Mr. Glenn? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you submit these monthly reports—what is their custom with regard to that ? Do they go over that ? A. They go over that, and read it out themselves to the board. This committee reads the reports to the Board of Regents. Q. Do they consider them and go over them? A. Yes, sir. 32 / 0 . You make them at every meeting? A. Every meeting the board has had since I have been here, eighteen years. Q. Have they any system of passing upon your reports ? A. None whatever. They accept them as information as they do other things of that sort, and they always come down on the minutes of the board. Q. On the minutes? A. Yes, sir, there is a record kept on the minutes. Q. Do they meet in this building? A. In this room, yes, sir. Q. What department have the other members of the Board of Regents ? A. I don't know that I can recall them, two members on the medical department, and two members on the auditing depart¬ ment, who look after the auditing of the bills, etc., and other depart¬ ments, building and repairs, etc. Q. Two physicians? A. They are here sometimes on one and sometimes on the other. And there are sub-committees, of course, for special purposes from month to month. Q. Have they any set of rules for your guidance in the manage¬ ment of the farm, or is that left to you? A. It is left to me princi¬ pally. Q. It is left to you with recommendations from them? A. Yes, sir. Q. You and they are working in harmony? A. In perfect har¬ mony ; never had any friction at all. Q. What salary do they give you? A. A hundred and fifty dol¬ lars a month. I get the same that several men around Columbia, here, get for looking after a dairy or farm alone outside of anything else. Mr. Hardin—You keep the books? A. Yes, sir, I look after the bookkeeping, and these men furnish orders to the farm for every¬ thing connected with it, and everything is furnished there. O. You keep an account of everything outside of your depart¬ ment? A. Only relating to the finances and things of that kind. I do of the delivery of the goods from the store room, and I keep a book of accounts there. I keep a book with each department, and a book for what is called “personal book.” Any supplies that are issued to a patient I keep a personal account with him, showing the amount of shoes, clothes, and things that he uses during the year. Q. How much clerical help have you ? A. I have one man at the 328 store room. He charges it on his book as I call out for the institu¬ tion, and I write it down. Q. What salary does he get ? A. $25,000 a month. Q. Any one in your office? A. I have one assistant in the office that gets fifty dollars a month. Q. Do you make an annual report to the Board of Regents in addition tb the monthly reports? A. Yes, sir. Q. When is it made? A. The last meeting in the year. It is called the annual meeting. Really, I cannot complete that report at the annual meeting for the reason that the accounts are not all in, but I put that in in January. They have been recently meet¬ ing along about the first or second of January. They do that so that I can get in my annual report. Any earlier I can’t do it. I can approximate about how it stands, but I cannot give it exactly until the books are closed. Q. The annual report for the last year, where is that? A. I don’t know where it is. I turned over my part to Dr. Babcock. O. That was your annual report for 1908? A. Yes, sir. Q. About what time of the year did you turn that over? A. Two or three weeks ago. O. What is your year out here, your scholastic year? A. From the first of January to the first of January. The Chairman—What time is the report usually published, Mr. Bunch? A. Usually published for the Legislature when the Legis¬ lature is in session. Q. That is what we are inquiring into. We have not seen any report to the last Legislature. ' That is what we wanted to see. Do you know why the report of last year was not made to the Legisla¬ ture? A. It was made last year. I think it came in late but it was made last year, because I have a copy of it. I have nothing what¬ ever to do with the printing of the reports. 0 . You are on the stand and we can ask you for any information about it. What time did you get your report? A. My report, I am always ready on it. Q. At the end of the year? A. Sometimes we cannot make a balance the first day of the next fiscal year, but in a day or two. Q. How long since you turned over your last report to Dr. Bab¬ cock? A. Two or three weeks ago. 0 . Delayed this time? A. I was not delayed. O. You had it made? A. I think there was some hitch in the 329 medical report. All have to go in together. I don't know this as a fact. Q. As to yonr own, you were ready with it? A. My report was ready. Q. When was it ready? A, Certainly not later than the third of January. Mr. Hardin—You have been here since 1891 ? A. Yes, sir. Q. The Superintendent and Dr. Thompson and you are kept pretty busy? A. Yes, sir, we are kept pretty busy. We have all we can do. Q. You say you and Dr. Babcock get along harmoniously together? A. Perfectly. 0 . No friction between you? A. None whatever. Q. He co-operates with you when you call on him? A. I have no trouble at all in my department, Mr. Hardin, no trouble with Dr. Babcock or the Board of Regents. They have always given me what I asked for. I never asked for anything except what I thought was absolutely necessary for the department. They have always been very kind to me. Mr. Sawyer—Have you anything to do with the preparation of the menu card? A. No, sir, nothing whatever. Q. Who does that? A. I don't know. I suppose the Superin¬ tendent has charge of it. Dr. Babcock has asked me two or three times, and I have gotten it up for him, but I have no regular duties along that line. The Chairman—As I understand, you have charge of the farm of 250 acres ? Who have you on the farm under you ? A. I have an overseer who looks after the hands, follows the hands and keeps them at work. Q. How much does he get? A. Fifty dollars a month last year, fifty-five dollars this year. Q. Any other man ? A. At the dairy. 0 . On the farm? A. That is on the farm. Q. On the farm proper? A. No white man on the farm, no othef, yes, sir, I have a man that does the feeding of the stock. He looks after the feeding and things of that sort, a man that puts the feed in, and everything of that sort, and when the stock come in he looks after them. O. Anybody else that attends to the crops? A. Nobody else except the laborers. Q. You have a man in charge of the hogs? A. Yes, sir. 330 Q. What does he get? A. Twenty-five dollars and boards him¬ self. Q. In charge of the dairy and 130 cows, too? A. He gets twenty- five dollars also. 0 . That is what Mr. Hedgepath gets? A. $25.00. I think. Q. Outside of the hands, those that might be called farm hands, there are the hog man and the feed man ? A. And the dairy man. Q. Those three? A. Yes, sir. Q. One man to feed? A. One looks after the feeding of the cattle. He goes over there and looks after the stock on the farm, sometimes works, etc. O. That is your men? A. Yes, sir. O. On the farm? A. Those are all the white men I have. This overseer, the foreman of the dairy, the foreman of the hog lot and the feeder of the horses and cattle. Q. You have charge of the store room ? A. Yes, sir. O. And you spend a few hours there each day? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many hours? A. That varies. If we have a requisition to fill that takes two or three hours. That is outside of the kitchen supplies. If we have a requisition to fill from the wards we occupy from about half-past eight in the morning until one o’clock in the afternoon. He does Taylor in the afternoon. Q. Do you need more help in the store room? A. Well, yes, sir. If we had more help we could keep our goods in better condition. 0 . Do you think they are kept in a satisfactory condition now? A. No. They are not. We have no time. We don’t have time to keep things on shelves. It is very convenient to us and we can fill requisitions very rapidly, but the goods are not kept in as good con¬ dition as they might be if we had more help. Q. Would you think it desirable? A. In other institutions that I have visited they have two or three more men that stay in the store room. In Georgia they have two men who do nothing else except look after the store. Q. As a result would they keep things in very nice shape? A. Yes, sir, as good as you find them in an ordinary store on the streets. Q. I want to get information as to why it is desirable? A. I don’t think you would gain anything except that it would be more pre¬ sentable, if you had company to come in to see it. 0 . Do you think there is any waste in the present condition ? A. None whatever. There can’t be. 33 1 Q. In your reports to the Legislature, under the head of mainten¬ ance, could you divide up the amounts under different heads so as to show what they cost, clothing and food, etc. ? A. I could do that, but I have not had the help to get that up. Q. It would not be possible with the help you have? A. It would be possible by giving overhours to the work. In that way I could get it up. Q. What do you mean by overhours, working at night? A. Yes, sir, I would work at night. I have worked over here at night until after midnight frequently, and have worked on Sunday. If you want me to do it, I can do that in shipshape after this. Q. I want to ask if with the present force you can do it in working hours? A. No. Q. How many accounts have you with the patients? A. We keep a personal account book for each department. For instance, we keep a personal account book with the white women, a personal account book with the white men, a personal account book with the colored men, and an account book for the colored women. Q. In which you credit the amounts to your account and how paid out? A. Whenever those requisitions come in they are either for ward use or for personal use. When they are for personal use, they are entered personally, and when they are for ward use, they are entered accordingly. Q. About how many personal accounts have you? A. We have a personal account with every patient in the institution that we furnish anything at all to, anything, a hat, a pair of shoes, or anything else, we enter it in the personal account book. We don’t keep an account with those particular patients, but we can refer to them. If we think they are getting too much, we can go over the books, for instance, and tell how often they got shoes. Q. That is in the store? A. Yes, sir. Q. Different accounts? A. They have personal accounts where they have personal funds to buy special things, things not furnished. Q. With them? A. We keep personal accounts with those also. There are several hundred of them. Q. Five hundred? A. I should judge so, yes, sir. Q. You have a special clerk for that work? A. No. We have not. The board has provided one now, but that is in the last month. 0 . What is the clerk paid? A. No amount has been fixed as yet. Mr. Harrison—Those “commissions” I believe you call them? A. Yes, sir. 332 O. Does that not interfere very seriously with your work here? A. Yes, sir, it gave us about as much trouble as any other work we had to do. It is a very unsatisfactory work. Q. And I presume there is a great deal of complaint from the patients? A. The patients are dissatisfied with their things. It is impossible to go down the street with five or six hundred commis¬ sions and get every single item to please the party that sends for it. 0 . Is there any special day when they brought those commissions in, or did they come in one at a time? A. Originally they came in every day, but the commissions finally got so heavy that it was impossible for me with the help I had to attend to them regularly, and we then had two days of each week set apart for commission days, and we just devoted those days to commissions alone. 0 . In other words, those commissions as far as your work was concerned, were filled? A. With the help in the office I could attend to the outside work. I have not for the past several years had much to do with commissions, but my assistant in the office has not been able to do much else. Q. From the standpoint you have been able to observe, don’t you think it is a very bad plan, that of buying on commissions ? A. It is in a way, but it adds very much to the comfort of the patients. I don’t know very well how we would get along without something of the sort. I don’t know what the rules of other institutions are. Q. They do not permit it in the institutions you have seen ? A. In Georgia they do. 0 . I want to ask you something: There is a whole lot of talk about the sanitary condition of the dairy and the patients drinking the dairy milk. You have a steam boiler out there? A. Yes, sir. O. Would it be possible, at a very small expense, to pipe the steam from that boiler up to the dairy building? Could that be done? A. It would be possible. Q. Is it feasible ? A. Yes, sir. Q. With a small outlay you could keep clothing, say white cloth¬ ing, and dress them there? A. Yes, sir. Q. If those appliances were furnished ? A. Yes, sir. 0 . Is the milking perfectly sanitary? A. It could be made more so. It would be possible to make it more so, I suppose, if a person would take a good deal of time and discretion and get those patients to bathe. 0 . It really could be done ? A. It can be done, of course. 0 . That was what I was after. It would be feasible in your 333 judgment? A. O, yes, with the proper help to get them into it. They are very stubborn beasts. They are sometimes a little worse than the proverbial ox. Q. They could be really bathed and dressed for that work each time they did the milking? A. It could be done. I don’t know whether that would be profitable or not. I don’t know of a single dairy being run that way anywhere. I went down the other day to a dairy, that is one of the new dairies, and is doing it in a nicer way than any other dairy I know of in South Carolina, and they tell me that it is impossible for them to carry out any such plan as that. Q. That was just what I was driving at. That is exactly what I was asking about. A. If you go to the Borden people, who get out the highest priced milk they can and they do this sort of thing, but to go in and take a whole lot of patients and bathe them and put on a new suit, I don't think it is the proper thing in this institu¬ tion. 0 . From a sanitary standpoint you don’t think it would be feasi¬ ble? A. I don’t believe it would add anything to the safety or efficiency of the milk at all. If you want to go in for appearance and sell milk for seventy-five or eighty cents or a dollar a gallon, then it is necessary to have those things. O. From the standpoint of the hospital you don’t think it is an improvement that should be made? A. No, I do not. I have not thought it would be profitable. I think it is very well to have them bathe their hands, and have them bathe as often as possible. Q. The reason I brought this out is that it has developed that you had absolutely no control beyond the very business of milking, as I understand, you have no authority over the bathing of those patients? A. I have nothing to do with that at all as far as that is concerned, except in the way of coaxing, and things of that sort. They all have to come to me. I give them little extras, and I never have any trouble with them, but if I were to undertake to force them to that, I would have a job on my hands that I never had before. I realize that fact. Q. I wanted to ask you from a financial standpoint, in asking for an appropriation, do you think it the best method in asking for an appropriation for a hospital—what do you think is the best method in case of repairs and things like that? You are the financial officer of this institution, and I ask you ? A. My opinions are embraced right here. Q. Would it be better to ask for an appropriation from the stand- 334 point of general repairs or particular repairs? A. I think that every dollar of money that is appropriated to this or any other institution ought to be for a specific purpose, and it ought to be confined to the building, or whatever it may be, that it is given for. Q. In other words, when you ask for an appropriation, it should be asked for a specific purpose? A. Taking it as a rule. Q. That is the idea? I just wanted your opinion? A. That is my opinion. Dr. Taylor—You have farmed that farm for eighteen years? A. Yes, sir. Q. You have made a profit on that farm every year? A. Yes, sir. Q. A very neat, clear profit to the credit of the State? A. Yes, sir. Q. How much last year? A. Last year I made net about twenty thousand dollars. Q. Twenty thousand dollars made to the profit of the State of South Carolina on two hundred and fifty acres of land, is that right? A. That is right. Mr. Dick—Did you count interest? A. No interest, taxes or any¬ thing. Q. What is your opinion, from a financial standpoint, for the asylum—would you get any more work out of the patients than you do now, if you separated the races? A. My opinion is that if you want to run an economical asylum you had better leave the races together. It is impossible to get any work of any consequence out of white people, and the negroes do quite a lot of the drudgery. Dr. Taylor—How many pay patients do you think are working? A. I think about 25 or 30. Mr. Glenn—Have you ever visited any other hospital? A. I have visited two or three. I don’t do much of that. I saw more of the Hospital at Milledgeville than anywhere else. (Mr. Bunch thereupon read a comparative table of food supplies produced on the farm from 1890 to 1908, both inclusive.) Dr. Ray—You arrive at those conclusions from the market value? A. This is unfair to the institution, for the reason that the cabbage we are furnishing here now we have charged to the asylum, though- they are of a better quality—and we have charged at summer time prices for the vegetables we have furnished. Q. You get those prices in detail? A. Yes, sir. O. How much do you charge for milk? A. Twenty-five cents for the last two years. 335 Q. You could not buy that on the market at that price? A. I don’t suppose I could buy it for anything like that, on account of the fact that the price on feed is fast going up, and milk has gone up in price considerably. Dr. Babcock—How many suits of clothes did you buy from the United States Army? A. We bought on several occasions. I think we bought seven or eight thousand suits from St. Louis on two or three occasions. 0 . How much a piece did you give for those suits? A. About thirty cents a suit. Q. How much do you figure you saved on the transaction in watching out for a sale like that, and sending a representative out there? A. No, sir, I have not figured it out. I paid for the shirts about thirty cents and paid 3.49 cents, as well as can remember, for the suits. Q. And on the clothing you would have saved at least two dol¬ lars? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many suits? A. Seven or eight thousand—I don’t know just how many. We have several boxes of those khaki suits now. Dr. Taylor—You must have saved ten thousand dollars? A. It has been some years, and we paid, I think, from thirty to thirty- seven cents. Q. You saved at least eight thousand dollars on that purchase? A. There is no doubt of that at all. I am positive of that. We bought from Savannah a lot of blankets, army blankets, at fifty cents, that were worth two dollars and fifty cents, and we bought at lot of sheets for sixty cents, that were worth twenty-five cents a yard. We bought below cost there and at St. Louis also. 0 . Several thousand dollars—and that was due to the watch¬ fulness and carefulness of yourself and Dr. Babcock? A. Yes, sir, and I wish to say in this connection that Dr. Babcock went there, and he stood over those things day after day, and frequently without any meals or anything of that sort. He staid there and watched that thing for the interest of the institution. Mr. Hardin—The Superintendent has been superintending these buildings out here. Do you think the State has saved any money? A. There is no doubt about that, but I don't know just what the fees would be for architects. It must be considerable in the size buildings we have here. 0 . In connection with the sale at Savannah, weren’t you offered 336 a consideration to leave the sale? A. Yes, sir, we were offered five hundred dollars apiece. Dr. Ray—Don’t you think the quality of the buildings is better than we would have gotten from an architect? A. I don’t think there is any doubt about that. Q. They are not shoddy buildings? A. You were asking about buying property. I have had those things offered me two or three times. Q. In the way of rebates ? A. I had a party to come to me once to sell me shoes to be used at this institution. He came up here one afternoon, and said to me that he wanted me to go down to the hotel and look at his shoes, and I did not go as quickly as he wanted me, and he came and says to me, “I want to make a proposition to you. I don’t know how you will take it, but I would like to sell you shoes. We can sell you just as cheap as you have been buying elsewhere, and for every pair of shoes that you buy from us, we will send you a check. The amount will be charged so and so, and we will send you a check for twenty-five cents.’’ I says, “Hold on,” and I stopped the carriage and I went back, and told him I could not deal with any such firm. I reported the matter to Dr. Babcock and the Regents. Later, I don’t know just how long, I had a com¬ munication from a firm that wanted to sell me flour, and later came in and made a proposition that they would give me twenty-five cents a barrel for the flour bought for the institution. I wrote a reply to that which I think I can find on the letter book. I carried it over and showed it to Dr. Babcock, and he asked to answer it, and I sent it on to him. This man came back with a reply of twelve pages trying to explain that he did not intend to bribe us, and that I did not understand, and that he could explain how I could get it back to the institution’s credit. One day after that, I was out at the store attend¬ ing to my work there, and had a note from my daughter, who was my assistant at that time, saying that Mr. So and So, was in the office and wanted to sell me flour. I wrote on the back of the note that we did not need any flour, and besides that I could not deal with the man because he had offered me a bribe. Three or four times after that they tried to bribe me after he left. I am sorry I did not keep the letter. I had the letter on file. I reported the matter to Dr. Babcock and the Regents. I think they will bear me out in that. Dr. Ray—You always buy bv competition? A. I try to do it. Sometimes we run out entirely and have to buy. As a rule we do. Certain little things we have to buy from certain houses for the 337 reason that that house controls the supply of those things especially for us, things that we know nobody else carries. We know that house keeps that particular thing and we depend upon the house to furnish it, but the heavy things, such as flour, meat and lard are always bought by competitive bids. Mr. Harrison—How about the capacity of your storage house, your storage room, is it large enough for your purposes? A. No, sir, nothing is large enough. We have outgrown everything we have got. Q. Is it large enough for you to hold sufficient Hour on hand there to enable you to conduct the business satisfactorily? A. Yes, it is large enough for this reason : In our climate flour becomes musty, and it is impossible for us to buy more than two cars in the spring. We buy in the winter so as to carry us through and keep us from being dependent. Q. That is the best way? A. It would not be the proper thing to buy more for the reason that it would be more or less musty. Q. In other words, the storage space is sufficient under those conditions? A. Yes, sir. Dr. Taylor—You get no supplies from the storehouse, do you? A. No-, sir. Q. For yourself? A. For myself? Q. Yes. A. Sometimes I buy in a lot of things. I may want to take off one or two articles I take out for myself. The institution officially furnishes me nothing. 0 . That one hundred and fifty dollars covers everything, food, board and everything? A. I get nothing except what I pay for. If I buy vegetables from the farm I pay for them. Q. All the institution furnishes is your actual salary and the house, fuel and lights? A. Fuel and lighting. You were talking about the per capita expense in the institution. I have a statement here. (Statement read.) Mr. Carey—What was the highest year? A. 1889, $152.78. Mr. Dick—How many patients ? A. 754. Q. Flow many assistants do you think you need in your depart¬ ment ? A. That is owing to whether they are going to separate the departments or not. If I am going to be steward—steward, secre- retary and treasurer, and manager of the farm, general outside man. I need more than I have. The Chairman—Have you any other statement you would like to 22—A. 338 put in evidence? A. I don't know that I have. There are some things. Q. No other official statements? A. No. Mr. Glenn—You have some suggestions ? A. A lot of these might more properly come before the Regents. I can read them and offer them if you want them. Mr. Harrison—It is very important that he should file them. They should not be overlooked. Witness, after reading from report: The banks carry us from the thirty-first of December until the fifteenth of March. Mr. Sawyer—That is an arrangement that you have had for the last twenty-five years? A. I don’t know just how long, but it has been a long time. Under the present law we are obliged to show our expense accounts before we can get a warrant from the Comp¬ troller-General on the State Treasurer at all. In the meantime we have to run three or four or five thousand dollars in debt on account of bills coming in that have to be paid before that. Take the medical department, we have got to pay those bills every week. Sometimes it runs six or seven or eight hundred dollars a week. Then we have got to pay express and freight, and we have got to pay for poultry and eggs, such things as we have to buy and pay cash for. We have to go to the banks and borrow the money. That costs considerable interest. Outside of that, we ought to have some fund available so that we can meet a lot of bills, demands, where we are offered from one to five per cent, discount for cash. All that means a good saving. The Chairman—You want it added in the appropriation? A. I think there ought to be a certain fund set apart by which this institu¬ tion can in some way draw this money in advance. Under the old law, which was not perfect, but it was better in some respects than the new law, in that we could draw one-twelfth at the end of each month, and at the end of the year we could draw out the balance we had on hand, which was sufficient to enable us to carry the institu¬ tion until the next appropriation became available. Under the new law if we had ten, twenty or thirty thousand dollars we could not touch it. 0. Wouldn't a simple appropriation for twelve months solve the problem? A. To a certain extent, if we could draw out with a little surplus. If we had, say, ten or fifteen thousand dollars ahead, it would completely solve the problem, but we would be obliged to have a surplus. Q. That would tide you over? A. Yes, sir. 339 Q. Outside of that you want a special fund of about ten thousand dollars? A. So as to meet contingencies as they arise, contingencies as they come along. There are a number of things that we cannot touch at all unless we have the cash, eggs, poultry, fruit, etc. We are obliged to pay cash for those. We can’t draw that money until the middle of March. Q. You could save that interest? A. Yes, sir, we could save that. D. F. Hedgpatii, white, being duly sworn, says: Mr. Carey—You are in charge of the dairy? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you been in charge of it ? A. Three years. Q. How many cows are you milking now? A. 136. Q. How much milk do you get a day? A. From 180 to 190. Q. Gallons? A. Yes, sir. Q. What do you do, superintend the milking? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who does the milking? A. Patients. Q. Negroes or whites? A. Negroes. Q. Are they pretty clean, or dirty? A. Tolerable clean. Q. Do you try to make them keep clean ? A. I do. Q. What do you require them to do before they do the milking? A. I require them to wash their hands. Q. Anything else? A. I require them to go to milking then. Q. Do they wash the udders of the cows? A. I have a set that I send ahead to do that. Q. Those fellows that come are sent to you here? A. Yes, sir. Q. By the doctors? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you got any there that haven’t got sense enough to do the work? A. Those that we have to do the milking are picked out. Those that are a little off we have to clean up. Q. The better class do the milking? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are the cows in good condition? A. I think so. Q. Fat? A. Yes, sir, most of them. Q. There is a complaint here about your milking not being clean, that your milkers are not kept clean? What have you to say about that? A. The colored men we have to do the milking bathe here, I suppose, once or twice a week, and put on clean clothes about twice a week, and when they come there I have them bathe their hands each time. They always wash before they go to milking. We have two or three to go ahead and wash the bags. Q. The bags are always washed? A. Yes, sir. 340 Q. You stand there and see them washed? A. Yes, sir, the attendant I have stands there and sees to that. Q. Who is he? A. Willie Jacobs. Q. What does he do? A. Attends to the milking. Q. Helps you with the cows? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you milk, what do you do with the milk? A. Put it in cans and send it right up. Q. Do you weigh it? A. Yes, sir, from every cow. Q. Do you keep a record of what each cow is doing? A. Yes, sir, a daily and a monthly report. Q. Who do you report to? A. Mr. Bunch. Q. Do your cows average up pretty well? A. Yes, sir. Q. What do they average a day? A. I have 136 that I milk now, and I got two hundred gallons yesterday. Q. Do you feed your cows well? A. Yes, sir. Q. On stuff raised on the farm? A. Some raised on the farm, and bran and meal we buy. Q. You mix it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you have anything to do with the butchering? A. Yes, sir. Q. How is that done? A. It is done as often as necessary. Q. Is it clean? A. Yes, sir, it is done clean. Q. Who does it, a patient? A. A colored man brings some patients there and does it. Q. I mean at the head. Isn’t he a patient? A. No, sir. Q. Do they get good beef over there? A. Yes, sir. Q. After your milk is sent over here you have nothing more to do with it ? A. No, sir, I have nothing more to do about it. Q. The dairy is out on the farm? A. Yes, sir. Q. You milk twice a day? A. Yes, sir. Q. What hours do you milk ? A. Commence about half-past seven, between that and eight, of a morning, and about half-past three in the evening this time of year. Q. How long have you been in charge of the dairy ? A. About three years, a little over. Q. Those patients that do the milking, do they keep their clothes clean ? A. Pretty clean, the ones that do the milking. The others do not. They get mealy by handling the meal, and they clean up. Q. Do they milk in the stalls? A. Yes, sir. Q. While eating? A. Yes, sir. 0 . And when they get through milking what becomes of the 34i cows ? A. Before dinner we carry them to the pasture, or put them into the lot. Q. You haven’t got much pasture? A. Just room for a little exercise. Q. You rely mainly on feeding them? A. Yes, sir. Q. You think that farm over there is run pretty well? A. I think so. Q. Could you better it ? Do you need anything out there ? A. I don’t know that I could. I need a little bigger barn room. I haven't got quite room enough for my feed, but the complaint was that the appropriation was not big enough to build it. Q. You did not have money to fix it with? A. No, sir. Q. Have you charge of anything else besides the dairy? A. No, sir. Q. You are known as the dairy man? A. Yes, sir. Q. How much experience does it take in that kind of business ? ’ A. This is the only experience I have had, three years, outside of my own cows. Q. You were raised a farmer? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where ? A. Fairfield County, and in Lexington. I came from Lexington here. Q. How much do you get? A. Twenty-five dollars a tnonth and my board. Q. That negro, what does he get ? A. I don't know exactly what he gets. I never inquired about that. Mr. Hardin—jYou have a cement floor over there? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you keep it swept out? A. Yes, sir, clean it out once a day. Dr. Taylor—Is that dairy scrubbed once a day? A. Yes, sir. Q. With what? A. With shovels, brooms, etc. Q. Do you use water and sand? A. We sand it after we get it cleaned out. Q. It is scrubbed regularly and kept covered with sand ? A. It is scrubbed out with shovels, and then we run wire brushes over it, and brooms, and then put sand over it. O. Within the last year, wasn’t there over there a cow that gave milk to this institution that you thought was infected with tuber¬ culosis, and that you had examined to see if it had consumption? A. I don’t think so. We have had one or two that we thought had consumption. No, sir, we have not had any cows examined any more than Mr. Bunch and I examined them. 342 Mr. Bunch—Don’t you remember that we had a thermometer test of them? A. Yes, sir, I did not understand. Dr. Taylor—You can always tell whether a cow is healthy or not? A. Yes, sir. Q. If a cow is healthy and fat it has little chance of having con¬ sumption ? A. Yes, sir, I can always tell when it is healthy. Q. But all the cows that looked to be the slighest bit off have been tested with a thermometer which shows whether they have got fever or not? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did a single case appear in the dairy? A. No, sir, I don’t think so. Mr. Carey—Do you get your board besides the twenty-five dol¬ lars? A. Yes, sir. Q. Board and twenty-five dollars? A. Yes, sir. Q. You get a house to live in? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is on the farm? A. Yes, sir. Q. There have been some parties that claim here that you allow filth from the cows to get into the milk while the negroes are milk¬ ing? A. That is only imagination with outsiders. It is not so at all. Q. You are there to look after that part? A. I am there to look after that myself. Q. And you know it does not happen? A. Yes, sir. Q. You say it is not so about the cow’s filth getting into the milk? A. No, sir. That is not so. I make a report every month to Mr. Bunch. Q. And a daily report? A. Yes, sir. Dr. Taylor—Mr. Hedgepath, isn't it almost impossible to have milk that does not show some sediment no matter how clean or careful you are—the cow is bound to switch its tail? A. I don’t know how it gets in. It is almost impossible to keep out everything. Q. A cow is a pretty filthy animal anyhow, is not that a fact? A. In fly time they shake about a little bit and it will get in. My own wife would have it that way sometimes and she was about as clean as anybody else. I have known her to strain the milk the second time and still have some in it even then. Mr. Carey—You think the milk you send over is clean, do you? A. I drink it, and I think I am as timid as anybody I know of about it. Q. Did you send it over here clean? A. I tried to send it over clean. 343 (The Commission thereupon adjourned until tomorrow at io o’clock A. M.) Columbia, S. C., 17 May, 1909. Pursuant to adjournment the Commission met this day at the State Hospital for the Insane. Present: The members of the Commission. The Chairman called the meeting to order. Mr. Carey moved that all the officials, including Mr. Bunch, Dr. Babcock and the Board of Regents, be requested to file in writing with the Commission their recommendations instead of giving testi¬ mony as to them. Carried. Mr. Bates moved that the recommendations be filed within thirty days after the close of the taking of testimony. Carried. Mr. Bunch was thereupon recalled to the stand, and testified as follows: The Chairman—Mr. Bunch, I understand from your testimony yesterday, that your report for last year was made out by the first week in January? A. Yes, sir. Q. That statement was handed to the Comptroller-General, was it? A. The statement was not handed to the Comptroller General, but to Mr. Holmes of the Comptroller-General’s office. He called me up over the ’phone and asked me for the amount the board had asked for. He asked for it and I gave it to him over the ’phone. Q. So the Treasurer was in possession of the recommendations of the institution as to the appropriations necessary for the ensuing year? A. I don’t know about that. I cannot tell you that. I know he called me up, and asked the amount the board had asked for, and I read it off to him over the ’phone. Q. That was the Comptroller-General’s office? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was there any action taken by the Board of Regents last fall as to the money expended for repairs during the latter part of last year? A. No, there was no action taken, no direct action. In their meeting they decided that inasmuch as the building was just in condition that it would be necessary to complete it to get it occupied that it would be best to continue the work on it. 344 O. W hat building was that ? A. The new building for white women. Q. How about other repairs? What are their instructions as to other repairs? A. I don’t remember any at all. There might have been, but I don’t remember. Q. This was the women's department? Any others? A. The repairs on the white men’s department. Q. Wards, or other parts of the institution? A. Yes, sir, some with regard to the white men’s department. Q. What were they? A. That the work in that department be commenced and pushed as rapidly as possible, as well as 1 remem¬ ber. The minutes are in the other room. Q. Was that done? A. No, it was not done. Q. Why not? A. I don’t know. O. Who was the proper official to carry out those instructions? A. I don’t know that. Those are merely matters of opinion, sir. Q. You were secretary of the board? A. Yes, sir. Q. And how did you give those instructions? A. Dr. Thompson was acting as Superintendent at the time, and he understood the instructions, and my recollection is that 1 spoke to Dr. Babcock about it after his return. Q. What statement did you make to Dr. Babcock at that time, Mr. Bunch? A. I told him the board had recommended that the work on the white male wards take precedence of all other work as far as it could possibly be done. O. Did the Board of Regents themselves decide that there would be no further general repair work done? A. They decided that there would be no improvements, but, of course, the repairs would have to be done when it was necessary. They are going on all the time. There are certain repairs which are obliged to be done. Q. Were the repairs at the Superintendent’s residence done after that? A. Those were done previous to that, and they were done at my instance. I reported to the Board of Regents, I suppose, two and a half years ago, I reported that all the residences ought to be painted, repainted, and Dr. Thompson’s residence was repainted first on account of his daughter’s marriage and Dr. Babcock’s and the one I am occupying was never reached. When Dr. Babcock was sick two years ago last May, Dr. Taylor wrote me word, and asked me to push the repairs on Dr. Babcock’s house while he was off on his vacation, but I was taken sick in the meantime and could not do it. When he was off on his vacation last summer I wrote to 345 Mr. Gooding that it was necessary to repair the house as it was leaking badly, ruining the halls, and that the repairs should be made immediately, and he wrote me a letter and told me he would give me his authority to proceed with the work. Q. Those repairs on the Superintendent's residence were made in his absence on the initiative of yourself and the Board of Regents? A. Yes, sir. I am responsible for that. Q. Previous to this work, was there any other work ? A. Previous to that, when I went to Dr. Babcock, he objected to it, and when he came home he did not like it because I had done the work on his residence. Q. We cannot see why it was that the orders that the white men’s department be repaired were not carried out. Why was that? A. I can give you just one reason. Two or three men can get together in conference and give more orders in half an hour than can be carried out in six months. 0 . You don’t think it was practicable to carry it out last fall ? A. Certainly not, if they were going to continue the work on the Superintendent’s dwelling. They were then at work on that. Q. What time of the year did the Board of Regents order that work to be done on the white men’s wards? A. It must have been in July or August of last year. Q. And the work they then had on hand was so great that it was not possible? A. It was just in such condition that they could not well turn loose. Dr. Sawyer—I suppose this order meajit when they finished up what they were then working on? A. It was to have precedence over all other work, and this work was already in progress and nearly completed. Mr. Hardin—That order was made in July or August. Was the Superintendent at home at that time? A. No, it was in his absence. Q. What time did he return? A. He returned some time about the middle of September. I don’t recollect the date. 0 . You informed him when he returned? A. Yes, sir. O. Some time in September or October? A. It was in a conversa¬ tion I had with him that I told him they had ordered these things, but, as I tell you, this other work was in progress and nearing comple¬ tion at that time. ’ Mr. Bates—You say you rang up the Comptroller-General’s office, and gave him the amounts necessary to be appropriated for the 346 institution? Do you remember what amount it was that you gave him. What amount did you give him for the maintenance and sup¬ port? A. 1 think it was $170,000.00, may be it was $180,000.00, because I cannot keep those amounts in my mind. They gave us the full amount we asked for. Q. They gave you the full amount? A. I think they did. Q. They did not give you $170,000.00 for maintenance and sup¬ port? A. Yes, sir. Q. And three thousand dollars for the Superintenden’ts salary? A. That is not given in by me. We don’t ask for that. That does not come through my office at all. Q. You know that was appropriated, don’t you? A. I saw it through the newspapers. I had no official advice. Q. Twelve hundred for the Regents? A. Yes, sir. 0 . Do you remember the amount that was asked for for building and repairs? A. Thirty thousand dollars, I think, was asked for for building and repairs. Q. Last year? A. Yes, sir. Q. So you asked for thirty thousand dollars in order to repair the institution ? A. We made that request for the next year. 0 . And they gave you five thousand? A. The House, as well as I remember, cut it all out, but later five thousand was allowed. And then there was tw r enty-five hundred dollars asked for for fur¬ nishing the new building, and that was not appropriated. 0 . You are pretty sure you asked for that? A. I am quite sure of that. Mr. Glenn—Did we not, at a meeting of the Board of Reg'ents, issue an order again that the first work in the way of repairs be on that white men’s department? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Carey—What was the net income from the farm last year of that twenty thousand dollars you testified to, after paying expenses? A. The expenses were taken out, and that is the net income I gave. We are charged up with everything, feed on hand and everything, and credited with what we had furnished to the institution and sold off the farm, and what was remaining on hand at the end of the year. Dr. Dick—Did the Legislature ever fail to give you what you asked for for support and maintenance? A. I don’t know very much about what they did. We usually get it. I have been told that we were always asked if we could get along on less. The consequence is, that the Board of Regents—I get this from the 347 Board of Regents and the Superintendent, in their meetings here-— I don’t think you ever saw me in one of the Houses—I never bother down there—I have not for several years—in the discussions over the matter in the board meetings, they decided that it was the best policy for this institution to ask for absolute necessities. If they asked for more, the chances would be that they would not get it, and it was better to ask for absolute necessities only. Dr. Sawyer—About that five thousand dollars that the House cut you out of, and the Senate being a little further removed from the people, gave you. Have you any of that on hand now? A. No, we have a deficit in that department. Q. That five thousand dollars was used in repairs? A. Yes, sir, in buildings and repairs. We have a regular report of the building and repair work. Q. The Senate gave you that which the House cut out, being a little further removed, they having cut it from ten thousand dollars, is that right? A. For building and repairs they asked for thirty thousand dollars. Q. Dr. Babcock can answer those questions. He was before the committees? A. Yes, sir, I was not before the committee at all. The Chairman—What repairs was that five thousand dollars for? A. Everything that comes in the way of improvements or repairs. We get the labor in the mechanical department and run over the bills and take out whatever we think is used for building and repairs, for instance, ordinarily lumber, lime and cement, glass, putty, etc., and all those sort of things. Q. This five thousand dollars has been expended in general repairs? A. General repairs and improvements, I suppose, includ¬ ing cement walks and things of that sort. 0 . All repairs of the institution? A. Yes, and change of sewers. They come in, too. We asked for five thousand dollars for the completion of this water main, and we did not get it, as I remember. I don’t remember any other appropriation that we asked for. Mr. Sawyer—I would like for Mr. Bunch to get that a little clearer. It was brought out which work had priority over other work. There was an order made by the Board of Regents, and, as I understand it, because the work you had commenced was not completed, you could not take up the work on the white male wards ? A. That was my understanding. O. And this work you did on the Superintendent’s residence was 348 just under the head of incidental work? A. It was repainted and recovered prior to this order of the board. Q. In other words, there was no disposition on the part of the management to fix up the Superintendent's residence at the expense of this department? A. I am personally responsible for any work done on that. It was unsanitary. The gutters were rotten and the shingles were rotten, and the whole thing was in bad shape. 0 . You regarded that as incidental necessary repairs? A. I want to say that if Dr. Babcock had been here he would have objected, and I did it because it was necessary that it be done. Q. What was the character of the work ordered to be on the white male wards? A. The floors were to be renewed, and painting was to be done after the floors were renewed. Q. The floors the first thing? A. Yes, sir, because the walls would be defaced again. Q. Yesterday, that was yesterday, wasn’t it? A. Directed again yesterday. It was directed before in July or August of last year. Mr. Harrison—Do you know anything about the boiler plant here? A. O, yes, sir, 1 know something, but I am not a boiler man, you know. Q. Have you insurance on the boilers? A. On two, I think, and one without insurance. Q. Why is the other without insurance? A. They refused to insure it. Q. In other words, it has been condemned? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know what horse-power you have got? A. No. Q. Is it sufficient? A. No, sir. Q. Is your boiler capacity sufficient to meet the ordinary demands of the institution? A. Our boiler capacity is run to its limit to do the cooking, run the laundry, and the mill and things of that sort, and the planing machines. Whenever we undertake to run those things we have always got to shut off one or two of the depart¬ ments. We cannot run all at the same time with the power we have got. Q. In other words, it is inefficient ? A. Very much so. That was reported eighteen years ago really. Q. Although you are not a boiler man, you are a practical man. W'oud it not be a necessity to have a new battery of boilers here? A. I feel so. I have felt so for a long time myself, and the board was asked to bring the matter up, and they felt that they were not in shape to take that matter up. 349 Q. If you had the necessary horsepower and boiler capacity you could put hot water in the white male wards where there is com¬ plaint of a lack of water? A. My understanding is that that water is used for bathing purposes now—the water from the boilers is not used for bathing purposes in the white male wards. I don't know what the plans are, really—that is my understanding. Q. It would be possible by putting drums over the boilers to have that water? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wouldn't it be cheaper and more economical from a business standpoint than to use stoves and things of that sort ? A. Cer¬ tainly a saving of fuel. Q. Really to repair them would be a farce? A. I think so. Q. Have you got sufficient boiler house to keep your boilers in? A. The boiler house might be sufficient, but I don’t think it should be located there. Q. I would be glad if you would give us an idea of that, Mr. Bunch? A. My idea is, although I don’t know about boilers or anything of that kind, but my idea is, from a mechanical engineer's standpoint, that a boiler should always be set low enough so that the exhaust steam would go back into the boiler, and it would thereby save a good deal of fuel. That would go back as hot water, and it would save considerable fuel in keeping up the boilers, and it would keep the boilers at a more uniform temperature. Q. Would it be possible to locate the boiler more centrally or properly? A. I am inclined to think that a proper location would be lower dowm the hall. There should be an excavation made so that all the exhaust steam would come back, would gravitate back into- the boiler. Mr. Sawyer—How long had that residence been in that condi¬ tion? How long had it needed repairs? A. The roof was in bad condition when Dr. Babcock occupied it. It must have been—I don't know—about, I suppose, six or eight years ago, may be longer than that. Q. It had needed repairs for some time? A. It was needing repairs when the property was bought, but we were very much cramped up for money to pay for this property, and did not feel that we could afford to go into those repairs. Q. Just now a question was asked you about putting some kind of drum over these boilers and sending steam round through the wards, and that it would be cheaper than the present arrangement, cheaper and more businesslike in the saving of fuel? A. I don’t 350 know anything about the drum arrangement or anything of that sort, I am just saying that everybody has a view about these things, and that is my opinion without professing to know anything about it at all, but it does look to me like when you centralize these things it would be cheaper. Q. Why has it not been done? A. We haven’t got the boiler capacity. The boilers have all been overloaded. Mr. Harrison—With reference to your present boilers you have talked, I believe, to experts on that line and have their opinions on the subject, and isn't it an economic waste of the consumption of fuel with these boilers as used at present? A. I should think so. I don’t know exactly, as I told you, it has always appeared to me that if we had larger boilers we could save some fuel. I don’t know just how much. 0 . I believe that recommendation was made eighteen years ago? A. The old man who had charge of the mechanical department made a recommendation to that effect that the smaller boilers be dis¬ posed of, and larger ones bought here soon after I came here. Q. I was getting my information from the Superintendent’s report? A. Yes, sir. Q. On the whole you think the present boiler system is an economic waste? A. Yes, I certainly do. Mr. Sawyer—That question reverts back to the question, if you had the money to make these changes in these conditions, you would do so? You are not an expert, but if you had the money there are many things you would put in that you have not on that account? A. That is my opinion, but not an expert opinion at all. If it were my opinion might have been different. I have not studied this subject at all because it is not in my line. Mr. Henry P. Earle, white, being duly sworn, testified as fol¬ lows : Mr. Carey—What is your position here in the institution, Mr. Earle? A. I am foreman of the kitchen. I believe they call it that here. Q. How long have you been here? A. Three years the third day of next month. Q. Where did you come from? A. From the navy. Q. The United States Navy? A. Yes, sir. Q. What were you doing in the navy? A. Fireman. 35i Q. Did you have much experience in running a kitchen in the navy ? A. I had my first experience here. Q. Here? A. Yes, sir. Q. How much help have you in the kitchen ? A. I have eight hired people. Q. White or colored? A. Colored. Q. All colored? A. Yes, sir. Q. Eight? A. Yes, sir, except the man that helps me. He is white. That makes nine. Q. That are interested in the cooking? A. Yes, sir. Q. They do the cooking? A. Yes, sir. Q. You are not a practical cook yourself? A. No, sir. Q. How many patients have you in there helping you? A. I have about seven now. Q. Seven? A. Yes, sir. Q. What class of patients are they? A. Colored male patients, a very good class of patients. Q. Do they keep themselves clean? A. Yes, sir, practically clean. Q. You get them out of Dr. Griffin’s department? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who selects them? A. Mr. Anson and Dr. Griffin. Q. And send them over to you? A. Yes, sir. Q. There is a good deal of complaint about the cooking, with those patients there. How do you account for the cooking not being any better than it is? A. There are several reasons. One is that we are cooking with steam. I don’t think cooking can be done as well with steam, and another reason is that we haven't got enough room. We haven’t sufficient cooks, and we haven’t room in which to work. We have no room for our cooks, if we had more of them. Q. How many people do you cook for in there? A. We are cook¬ ing for about a thousand people, I should say. Q. About a thousand? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many cooks do you think are needed in there? A. If we had room to work them we ought to have eight cooks anyway. What we have now are not all cooks. Several are helping who are not. Q. You ought to have eight practical cooks? A. Yes, sir, to do nothing else but cook. O. Patients or ousiders? A. They should be good outside help. Q. These negroes that you work in there, where do you get them? A. Just wherever we can out of town here. 352 Q. Have you got them divided out, each man to have his special work? A. Yes, sir. Q. One for meats? A. Yes, sir. Q. One for bread? A. Yes, sir, and the meat cook cooks a lot of vegetables and hominy and rice. Q. Do they know how to cook rice in there? A. Yes, sir. O. How do they come to say it is not in good shape sometirms? A. As 1 stated, it is cooked by steam, and in large quantities. O. Does steam cooking have that effect? A. It has the effect that it is not cooked as well as it would by other processes, and it is cooked in too large quantities. Q. What is the grade of it? A. Very fair rice. 0 . What size quantities? A. The pot holds about thirty-five or forty gallons. Q. Gallons? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you attribute the rice not being palatable to the steam cooking and the large quantities? A. Yes, sir. Q. How w r ould you cure the large quantity part of it? You would have to cook it that way? A. In the conditions as we have them, our facilities compel us to do it. Q. How much larger do you think the kitchen ought to be? A. It ought to be any way three times as large as it is. Q. Three times? A. Yes, sir, any way. O. If you had a kitchen of that capacity, what would you use instead of steam? A. We would install pots with wood or coal. Q. Ranges? A. Yes, sir, cook on ranges. Q. Use coal? A. Coal or wood, either one. 0 . Would you use smaller vessels? A. Yes, sir. Q. You could make the food better with that? A. Yes, sir, decid¬ edly better. Q. What is the objection to the hominy that you cannot get that in good shape? A. The same objection. Q. Do you cook it in large quantities? A. Yes, sir. O. When it is turned over to you from the farm it is in good condition? A. Yes, sir. Q. Good stuff? A. I consider it good. Q. Is it ground on the mill here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Meal and grits? A. Yes, sir. Q. Ground out of good corn? A. Yes, sir. Q. Turned over to you fresh? A. Yes, sir. 0 . How about the corn bread? What is the trouble about 353 cooking the corn bread? A. I don’t see but what our corn bread is as good as it can be made for plain corn bread. Q. Have you a special cook that cooks that? A. Yes, sir. Q. You cook that in the furnaces, I suppose? A. In the range. Q. Do you use steam for the cooking of that too? A. No, sir. Q. How about the lightbread, what do you cook that in ? A. The bakers cook that. Q. Is that under you ? A. No, sir. Q. Outside of your department? A. Yes, sir, outside of my department. Q. The vegetables, they are all right if they are steam-cooked? A. The vegetables could be cooked better if they were cooked in smaller quantities. Q. They are fresh when they come from the farm? A. Yes, sir. Q. If there is anything about it that makes the vegetables unpala¬ table, it happens after they get in the kitchen, is that right? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there much complaint amongst the patients about the cook¬ ing? A. I hear complaints from time to time. Q. What is the nature of the complaints they make against you ? Do they claim that it is raw? A. Yes, sir, sometimes. Q. How about that? Is there any reason for its not being done? A. Any reason for not getting it done? I consider it done. We cook hominy two and a half or three hours, and it ought to be done. Q. How long do you cook rice? A. I don’t think I have heard any complaint about the rice not being done. Q. The complaint seems to be that the rice is gluey, sticky and gluey? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the cause of that, and that it seems to have a blue appearance? A. Blue appearance? That does not come very often. Q. What is the cause of it when it does come? A. It gets gluey and sticky—that will happen when it comes in large quantities. Once in a wdiile we get a sack in a large quantity. Q. What is the cause of the blue rice? You don’t mean that it is in the cooking? A. That is very seldom. Q. That blue appearance of the cooked rice does not occur except when you get a sack of the blue rice. Is that right, Mr. Earle? A. Yes, sir. Q. It does not happen with your good rice? A. Not with first- class rice. Q. Your coffee, who makes that? A. A patient makes it. 23 —\. 354 Q. A patient cooks the coffee? A. Yes, sir. Q. A man? A. Yes, sir. Q. Does he know how? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do they serve pretty good coffee in there? A. Yes, sir. Q. How strong do you make it? A. Strong enough to suit mt, very good coffee, I call it. Q. You drink it yourself? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you use a good brand of coffee? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times do you make coffee for them? A. I make coffee once in a large urn, and make coffee for dinner on the range in small quantities. Q. You can make that all right by the steam process? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you give them coffee for breakfast and supper, too? A. Tea for supper principally. A few patients get coffee besides. Q. Who makes the tea, the same cook? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do they give them good tea? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who is that patient? A. His name is Henry. I don’t know his last name. Q. Do you know how long they have had him in there? A. He has been here ever since I have been here. Q. Is he a pretty good negro? A. Yes, sir. Q. Clean? A. Yes, sir, he is clean, very clean. Q. Do you have any trouble about making the patients in there clean and keeping clean? A. I send them to the wards and have them washed. Q. In handling the food do they keep their hands clean? A. Yes, sir. The patients don’t oft£n handle the food, only one or two once in a while. Q. Who does the handling? A. The cooks. Q. The hired cooks? A. Yes, sir. Q. How much do you pay the cooks? A. Eighteen dollars a month. Q. Who makes the soup for you? A. George Bailey. Q. Who is he? A. A patient. Q. Does he know how to make soup? A. Yes, sir. Q. He serves pretty good soup? A. Yes, sir. ' 0 . What kind of soup? A. Tomato soup. Q. Tomato? A. Yes, sir. Q. What do you put in it? Beef? A. Yes, sir, make tomato soup on beef days. 355 Q. When it is cooked and ready to serve to the patients, who takes charge of it? Is it still under you? A. No, sir, we deliver it to the mess hall. We deliver it tO' the dumb waiter, and it goes to the mess hall and is served. Who serves it I don't know. Q. It goes up in large quantities? A. Yes, sir. Q. And it is taken out and served? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who takes it out of the dumb waiter and serves it? A. I suppose the nurses. I don’t know anything about that department. Q. That is out of your department? A. Yes, sir. Q. You have never gone in and seen them eating? A. No, sir. Q. Your jurisdiction is over the kitchen? A. Yes, sir. Q. Anywhere else? A. No, sir. Q. You have nothing to do with the loaf bread? A. No, sir. Q. That is done by the baker? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who is he ? A. Horace Lawrence, I believe. Q. Does it go into the kitchen at all? A. Yes, sir, served from the kitchen. Q. It goes up in your dumb waiter to the mess halls? A. Yes, sir. Q. What form is it in when it leaves you? A. Loaf. Q. You send it up in that way? A. To the female side that way. On the male side we always cut it. Q. Cut it in the kitchen ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And it goes up with the other food on the dumb waiter, is that right? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you a judge of lightbread? A, I think so. Q. What do you think of the lightbread? A. It is very good lightbread. Q. Is it the same bread that you serve throughout the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you got any authority over anything except the kitchen ? A. No, sir, except the cooling of the milk. 0 . The cooling of the milk? A. Yes, sir. Q. What do you do with that? A. Strain it, and run it over a drum with ice water in it and cool it and set it in the milk house. Q. That is when it comes from the dairy? A. Yes, sir. Q. When it comes from the dairy it comes to you? A. Yes, sir. Q. You take it out and strain it? A. I don’t do it myself. Q. You have it done? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who does that ? A. Ben Inabnett. Q. A patient? A. Yes, sir. Q. White man? A. Yes, sir. 356 Q. Clean? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where does he come from, out of Dr. Thompson’s depart¬ ment? A. Yes, sir. Q. If I understand it, when it is brought over from the dairy he strains the milk? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you see that process going on? A. No, sir, I can’t see it going on every day. I see it from day to day. Q. Do you see it when it first comes up ? A. My partner attends to that, but I see it from day to day, from time to time. Q. How does it look when you see it? A. In good condition. Q. Do you discover any filth in it? A. No, sir. Q. In straining it do you discover any filth? A. Very little. Q. If there was any filth in it, would it pass out or remain? A. It would be strained out. Q. When you finish straining it where does it go? A. Put it in cans, and put it in the ice house, in the refrigerator. Q. That is the sweet milk? A. Yes, sir. Q. When do you serve it ? A. Serve the morning milk for dinner and supper. Q. And the night? A. For breakfast next morning. Q. You give them milk three times a day? A. Yes, sir. Q. Coffee once? A. Yes, sir. Q. And tea once? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you give all the patients milk? A. No, sir, I don’t think all get it. We divide it up and send it up in large quantities, in large cans, and from them it is distributed around. I could not say what becomes of it after that. Q. The milk is served from the ice house? A. Yes, sir. It comes to the kitchen and is served from there. Q. Served cold? A. Yes, sir. O. How do you send it up in that dumb waiter upstairs, in pitchers or glasses? A. In cans, pour it into smaller cans. Q. Who does that? A. I do—either myself or my assistant. Q. What is the appearance of the milk when you take it out of the receiving cans? A. Good. Q. Is there any filth in it that you can discover then? A. No, sir. Q. Is it cold? A. Yes, sir. 0 . You pour it into smaller cans? A. Yes, sir. 0 . And send it up in the dumb waiter? A. Yes. sir. Q. When it gets there, who serves it ? A. I could not tell you that. 357 Q. How about your kitchen down there? Do you make your patients and hired help keep it clean? A. We scrape the kitchen twice a day. Q. Who does the scraping? A. The hired help and the patients. Q. They do it under your direction? A. Yes, sir. Q. How about cleaning the vessels ? A. The hired help and the patients do that. Q. Are you particular to have that done? A. Yes, sir. O. How about your dishrags and things of that kind, how are they kept? A. They are kept clean. New ones are used as soon as one gets filthy. Q. Where do you get them from? A. We wash flour sacks, and use the flour sacks as dishrags. Q. When they get filthy what do you do with them? A. We burn them up. Q. Do you ever have them washed? A. Every man takes care of his own dishcloths. Q. Every man washes his own cloths? A. Yes, sir. Q. How often does he wash them? A. Every time he washes dishes. O. He washes them in the kitchen? These same men that wait on you in the kitchen, do they wash the dishes? A. Yes, sir. Q. What kind of washer have you got? Do you wash with the hands? A. Yes, sir. Q. What kind of dishes do you use? A. Tin dishes. Q. Tin plates? A. We don’t use any plates. We send it up in pans and wooden trays. Q. In large vessels? A. Yes, sir. Q. All the food? A. Yes, sir. Q. Take it up in pans? A. Yes, sir. Q. Your coffee? A. In coffee pots. Q. And the tea? A. In teapots. Q. It is poured out after it gets there? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Bates—Do you ever allow any other patients to go into your kitchen except those that do the cooking? A. They can come in three times a day to carry food to the dining room of the Parker building. Q. Do you allow any one in the kitchen except those doing the cooking and the serving of the food? A. Once in a while one comes in. Q. I see that some statement has been made here that the male 358 patients from the negro wards come through the kitchen around there while the cooking is going on, and that you allow them to do so ? A. No, sir, with the exception, as I say—Perry Stevens brings the patients there in the morning—we have them to help cut the bread, and he brings in the patients to help to cut the bread. Q. What do they pay you? A. Forty-five dollars a month. Q. You get board in addition to that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you eat from the kitchen yourself? A. Yes, sir. Dr. Ray—You eat the same as the patients? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Sawyer—Are you married? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any children ? A. No, sir. Q. Does your wife eat there with you? A. No, sir, she lives at home. Q. These milk cans, have they covers? A. No, sir. Q. Regular milk cans? A. Yes, sir. Q. That rice that you were speaking about. You said you were not an expert cook, but some people like rice cooked differently from others. Some like it dry as in the low country, and some like it cooked soft. Are there complaints along that line? A. Too soft and gluey. 0 . Some like it cooked soft and others dry so that it rattles in the plate almost like dry peas? A. Yes, sir. Q. Would not the water make a difference in the color of it? You spoke of some sort of blueish tint? A. It might. Q. Where does your water come from? A. The city. Q. Regular city water? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the same water all the time? A. Yes, sir. Q. You said you had about seven or eight hired servants in there, cooks, dishwashers and help? A. Generally. Q. And seven or eight patients? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think if you had more room and did not have to cook with steam, and had more hired help, that you could cut out and do away with most of these little complaints? A. I could make it decidedly better. Q. Do you think the food that you are sending up to the wards is proper food for an ordinary person to have, for a sane person when they are sick ? A. I would think so. Q. You think it is pretty well prepared? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you consider it very good food, and wholesome for them? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Hardin—Is it possible to cook a large quantity of rice and 359 grits to a uniform standard when you are cooking it in such large quantities? A. Yes, sir. Q. Some rice cooks better than others? A. Yes, sir. Q. And hominy the same way, I suppose? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Bates—Do I understand you to say that you cook hominy from two and a half to three hours? A. Yes, sir, and sometimes longer. Mr. Bunch—Don’t you think that sometimes the cause of your hominy here being sent up a little underdone is caused by a lack of steam, that it is due to the fact that you are sometimes short of steam? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were not here before this new water system was put in, were you? A. No, sir. Q. You did not have charge then? A. No, sir. Q. But you were here in other departments and know that before the new water system was put in, that the water was frequently very muddy? A. Yes, sir. Q. And it continued after this? A. Yes, sir. Q. Of course, you had an idea of it some years before you went into the navy? A. Yes, sir, since you mentioned it, I believe it was bad once in a while. Q. You remember that there were filters put there to filter the water? A. At what time? Q. When the water was muddy at times? A. I think not. I don’t think there was. The Chairman—Who directs you as to the bill of fare, Mr. Earle? A. Nobody directs me at all. Q. You have a certain rule that you go by? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you that written, or is it just a custom that you go by? A. No, sir, I came there under Mr. Herring, and I learned what I know under him, and I have carried it along with the same bill of fare that he had then. I never have had any written bill of fare at all. Mr. Bunch—Mr. Earle, you have the handling of the fruits that come in there in the summer time, do you not ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Will you state to the committee about the quantities of fruit and the quality that comes in there in the summer, when we have any fruit? A. The quality is good, and the quantity is more than the patients consume. 0 . What kind of fruit did they get? A. Apples, peaches, black¬ berries. Q. Melons? A. Melons. 360 Q. Where did you get the melons from? A. I got them from Mr. Bunch. Q. While there is no written menu, or anything of that sort, for the meals, you have general instructions by which you know about what to get every time, and to vary it from time to time, do you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. You consult me as to what I have in the store, and you get pretty much what I have there, don’t you, from time to time? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you sometimes suggest things that you think you need? A. Yes, sir. The Chairman—You have eight paid cooks now? A. Yes, sir, eight paid helpers. They are not all cooks, though. Q. How long have you had them there? A. I have had seven since December, and one more came in January. Q. How long have you had seven patient helpers? A. It has been about two weeks. I generally have a few more than that, but they have run down now. Q. That is really more than you have room for as it is? A. We keep them. Q. Is that all you can use? A. We have got all the cooks we can possibly use in the kitchen now. Mr. Hardin—Do you keep a daily record of the number of pounds of meat and flour you use? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Carey—What do you do with that record? A. I have it on the book. Q. Do you make any report to anybody of it? A. No, sir. Q. You just keep it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who do you get it from—the things you get? A. From Mr. Bunch. Q. He gives it to you daily? A. Yes, sir. 0 . What kind of desserts do you cook? A. Cook pies and cakes. Q. Fruits? A. Dried fruits, yes, sir. Q. Who works that? A. We have a cook down there that has been a baker, and we have him to cook that. Q. A patient? A. No, sir. Q. A hired man? A. Yes, sir, a hired man. O. Does he understand how to cook desserts pretty well, Mr. Earle? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Bunch—You stated just now that you had a record of what you got there. Is there any other record kept of what you get from the storeroom ? A. Only the record that you keep, that I know of. Q. I want to ask you another question. Do you put up any pre¬ serves or jellies, tomatoes, or anything, and preserve them for winter use? A. Yes, sir. Q. About what quantities do you put up ? A. I put up about two thousand quarts of tomatoes last year, and up to last week 1 haven't got any tomatoes out of the store since tomato season last year. Mr. Carey—Is there any effort to prepare food for sick people? A. We have a woman cook that prepares that food. Mr. Sawyer—Separate from the others? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where do you get orders for the preparation of food for sick patients? A. It generally comes through the nurse from Dr. Thompson, or through the hall girl from Miss Fannie Irwin. Q. And there is a woman that prepares it? A. Yes, sir. 0 . Cook eggs in there? A. Yes, sir. Q. Does she know how to cook eggs any way? A. We gen¬ erally poach the eggs for the sick. Q. And send the milk to them? A. We send the milk up to the hospital wards, and they distribute it from there. Q. This woman makes a specialty of preparing food for the sick? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Sawyer—Is that done in the same kitchen? A. The small kitchen, just this side of the big kitchen. Q. A special cook, a special woman cook, to prepare special food for the hospital wards? A. The sick diet. We send the food generally from the big kitchen, but the sick diet is oat meal and eggs, corn starch and things like that, are prepared by this woman, chicken broth, gruel, etc. Q. Orders come from Miss Irwin over here, or the supervisor, or Dr. Thompson, or Mr. Mitchell, direct to the kitchen? A. Yes, sir. Q. You then separate the food prepared for the sick? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Hardin—Your department is not the only cooking depart¬ ment they have in the institution? A. No, sir. Dr. J. W. Babcock, being duly sworn, testified as follows: Mr. Carey—What is your age now? A. I was born in August, 1856. O. Where? A. At Chester, S. C. 362 Q. You are a native South Carolinian? A. I am, sir. Q. Have you lived here all your life in this State? A. I lived in Chester until I was eighteen years of age. At that time, as the negroes had all the educational institutions, I took the advice of a friend and went to school in New Hampshire, expecting to be there for one year. Q. How long did you go to school there? A. As I happened to be able to work my way through and get some encouragement in the way of a scholarship, instead of staying one year, I remained in that school and then went through Harvard College. Q. What year did you graduate? A. 1882. Q. Where did you take your medical training? A. In Harvard Medical School, working my way through as best I could. While in my third year I had an opportunity to do some work in an asylum. As I did not very well know how I was to pay my next week’s board I went to w’ork in an asylum in January, 1885. Q. Where was that? A. The asylum was then in the city of Summerville, practically a part of Boston. Q. How long did you work in that institution? A. From Jan¬ uary, 1885, until August, 1891. The first year I was an interne, and the rest of the time I was second assistant physician. Q. When did you come here? A. About the first of July, 1891, Governor Tillman informed me that he understood I was expected to be in Chester on vacation, and if I happened to be down in Chester, he would like to have me come to Columbia and have a talk with me. So I came down here and saw Governor Tillman, and he offered me the superintendency of this institution. Q. And you have been here ever since? A. I came here for duty—that was about the first of July—and I came, I think, about the 13th of August, 1891. Q. What special training had you had in this class of work before you came here? A. I had nearly seven years in a private asylum in Summerville. 0 . Asylum for the insane? A. Yes, sir. O. Of the State of Massachusetts? A. Yes, sir. Q. What position did you hold ? A. I was second assistant phy¬ sician. Q. Were you in charge of the male department? A. Yes, sir. Q. Whites ? A. All whites. It was a small asylum containing from 225 to 250 patients. 0 . And you came from there here? A. Yes, sir. 363 Q. You have been Superintendent of this institution ever since? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was your predecessor here? A. Dr. Griffin. Q. 1 want to ask you very particularly about the matters growing out of the charges here. Have you got a copy of the general charges out here ? I want to start out with the reception of patients. The first thing that come before you, I suppose, is an application for the commitment of a patient, doctor? A. Usually it comes in a printed form. Q. Who do you get them from? A. The probate judges. Q. In the different counties? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you get those blanks, what is the first thing you do? A. Up to last summer it was not expected that a physician’s report should be attached to it. Those papers would come to me, and according as we had room, the answer would be that the patient would be received within a certain number of days, usually ten. The only requirement in addition to that would be in the time of a small¬ pox epidemic, and then we would add a requirement that the patient will be received within ten days if properly vaccinated. That vacci¬ nation requirement is added only in case of an epidemic. 0. Only added in time of an epidemic ? As I understand it, no physician's certificate was required until last summer, is that right? A. Not necessarily. While I was away there came up some con¬ troversy about it. The Board of Regents took that opportunity to change the rules and notified them that two physicians must endorse that first before the application is received. That was the Board of Regents' determination about it. Q. Is that the rule now ? A. That rule, according to the board, is being carried out now. Q. When an applicant comes in now, his application has to be endorsed by two physicians? A. The only exception is what is called an emergency case. This is an important law that does not seem to be understood as well as it ought to be, by which any per¬ son violently insane may be received in the institution upon the request of two reputable physicians made to the mayor or intendant or any recognized official, and then and finally, from those two citi¬ zens a certificate that they will have the proper papers made out within five days. 0. And you hold them? A. For this five days. O. These papers are filed and then they furnish you with the regular papers? A. Yes, sir. 364 Q. Without the regular papers you receive them? A. Yes, sir, up to about 1896 or 1897, the immemorial custom here was that a patient would be received upon the written request of their friends. The Legislature about 1896 or 1897 passed a law at my request put¬ ting all patients on the same basis whether the person was a pay patient or a beneficiary patient. 0 . As to his reception? A. Yes, sir. He must be committed, not simply upon a request, but upon a sworn statement of two parties before a judge of probate or a circuit judge. Q. In this commitment do they state that the patient is dangerous to life or property? Is that embodied in the statment? A. That is the law. Q. Is that required to be embodied in the certificate from the doctors? We have had one of them put in here? A. The doctor is required to certify to it. Q. What I am trying to get at is whether you follow the law in that respect? A. Yes, sir. That is a part of the duty of the Board of Regents. I can speak for them. Q. One of the charges made against you and the Board of Regents, also, is that this institution, under the law, is for insane only, for that class of insane who are dangerous to life and property, and that you constantly violate that law. I want to get at the facts whether you do or not, and if you do, what is the reason for it? The part I am driving at is how people other than insane people get in here, if it is a fact that you have a class of patients besides the insane? A. This is a commitment paper. It begins with the application for commitment. O. I have read that. A. This paper says—(reads). 0 . When they are admitted here, do they come in under that paper? Do you receive any other? A. We do not receive anybody who does not come committed. I have not in fifteen years received any one who was not committed. Q. So, you have the certificate of the probate judge and of two physicians that they are insane? A. First the application to the probate judge, then the physicians go on to say, etc., and wind up subscribed and sworn to, etc. O. That is not the patient himself? A. No, sir; the applicant executes that; first, that he is dangerous; second, that the insanity is of a more or less permanent character; third, that he can not con¬ duct his usual work or business; fourth, that the patient has been a resident of South Carolina for the last two years. 365 Q. Do you require those things to be filled out when you receive those patients? A. I am just as particular as I can be. Q. Are your instructions to the probate judges throughout the counties to be particular about these commitment applications? A. Yes, sir; and they are particular. It is not a question of instruction, but the probate judges are particular about them. Q. That is your experience and your testimony? A. Yes, sir; they are particular. Q. Who got up that form? A. That was gotten up under the law by Judge Ray, who was probate judge of Richland County. He and I got it up. After that application goes back to those doctors, the doctors certify that they are registered in accordance with the State law, and they certify to the best of their medical knowledge that the patient is incurable at home, and that his being at large is dangerous to himself, etc. The applicant certifies to it. Then two physicians certify to it, making it absolutely sure by the authority of three persons that the person is dangerous. Q. Suppose they come here with those prerequisites not carried out? A. There are instances where persons are violently insane and they are permitted to be brought here without any compliance with the law ? 0 . Without these formalities? A. Yes, sir. Q. What do you do in those cases? A. I receive them with the proviso that if those papers are not here within five days the patient will be turned loose. Q. Where do they get the papers? A. I give them blanks. That does not happen a dozen times in a year. Usually we protest and say it is all wrong, but meanwhile here is the poor individual violently insane and suffering, and he could be admitted under that emergency law, and then they are received. It is very rare that we do not get the papers. Q. When you do receive that class of patients does it turn out that they ought to be received? A. Sure. Let me give an instance. I think concrete examples are better than generalities. A young physician in the lower part of the State was called to see a young girl who had been nursing her father — an aged father—for several weeks. The girl suddenly realized that her father was going to die, and she threw herself upon the floor, and said I am lost, I am lost. She then went into a state of excitement for two days. The doctor told her brother and brother-in-law to take her to Columbia, and the first that we knew of it was that this young girl, 18 years of age, 366 was brought here. I protested, but her brother said he would get the papers. The girl came in about the 20th of last October. On ad¬ mission I got her to take half a glass of milk. After that she refused to eat, and she was fed with a stomach pump for five months. She never took anything naturally. Three times a day this food was in¬ serted through a tube, a rubber tube, into her stomach. It was a running fight whether the poor child was going to live or die. Mean¬ while I could not get the papers. I appealed to the probate judge. He finally got the doctor who had sent her here to sign the papers. The law requires two physicians. I sent the papers back to the pro¬ bate judge, and said this commitment was not legal as two physi¬ cians were required. He wrote me that he would try to get the papers completed. Although I have appealed to him, he has not been able to get the papers signed by the one physician. So we have not commitment for that patient. That case is one out of a thousand, but I am personally, officially, individually, and every way responsible for receiving that girl, and I had to do it as a matter of humanity. It is not law. Q. Is she here now? A. Yes, she is getting well. Q. These dope fiends and inebriate people who are in here, not violently insane, how do they get in here? A. Under the same com¬ mitment. Q. Under the same? A. Yes, sir; we will not receive them. A dozen years ago when we were not so crowded, I had some most excellent and admirable men who had the curse of inebriacy upon them to come here and ask to be received, and we would take them on their own request, but the Board of Regents, after considering all these matters, ordered me to receive no inebriates who were not committed under that form, and for a dozen or more years, no one has been received who has not been committed regularly. Q. How about dope fiends; do they come in the same way as these others? A. We don't receive them except in emergency cases. O. These inebriates are received in the same way? A. As dan¬ gerous inebriates. Q. Insane? What about that? A. That is for the doctors and the probate judge. Q. Do they put that in there? A. Yes, sir; that identical paper. Q. A form of insanity? A. Yes, sir. Dr. Sawyer—Do you remember a case I sent you from George¬ town, the case of an inebriate about two years ago, Mr. -? Explain this point: Another physician and I made out this report. 367 He got so he would hide out behind doors, and shut out people, and thought his wife was trying to kill him, and they did everything they could to keep whiskey away from him. He was insane as soon as he had access to whiskey, and there was no way for 11s to handle him. We put him in jail. So we signed this. We signed that under oath, that under those conditions he was permanently insane. Of course, we understood under those conditions. We sent hipi up, and he staid three or four or six months and was discharged cured. Q. Does a physician have to sign that so as to come under the law? Is there no other way to do it? A. While you are on ine¬ briates. The law says that inebriates can only be received here as pay patients. Q. What I want to get at is how does the institution observe Sec¬ tion 2,249 th e General Statutes which provides that a person shall be considered insane or fit to be a patient in the hospital who exhibits in the first place such a degree of brain disability or mental aberra¬ tion as to render him or her dangerous to others, or dangerous to his or her own life or person, or dangerous to property; in the second place, this disability must not be transient like delirium in a fever, but of a more or less permanent character; in the third place, lack or loss of mental ability to properly conduct his or her usual work or business shall be considered along with aberrant conduct in deter¬ mining the question of a person's insanity. I want to know if it is your effort to observe that, and do you observe it? A. Yes, sir; just as far as we possible can. 0 . Do you keep a copy of the statutes in the institution? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you have a legal adviser when you need one? A. Former¬ ly there was an attorney on the board. Latterly there has not been one. If any serious question should arise I should not hesitate to go to an attorney for advice, and in case of doubt I have always gone to the resident regent or communicated with the others. Q. This form sets forth all the law that is required. Does the Board of Regents adopt this? Is this the form in use? A. It is always used except in emergency cases. It is the only form on which any sort of patient is admitted. Q. If a patient gets in who is not insane or dangerous to life or property, who is responsible? A. I suppose if you go to the bot¬ tom, the order reads for me to receive him. Q. The commitment then would be in the hands of the probate judge and the physicians? A. Yes, sir. 368 Q. Or both? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you question these certificates when you receive them here, or do you accept them? A. The board and I differ a little, there. The board say they do not want a patient received until they have the certificate as to his condition, but the superintendent’s re¬ ply is—(reading). That is put in there so that if the Board of Regents in conference with vour commission, say to me, as I from the bottom of my heart would be glad for you to say, for the white men’s department is full, it is overflowing, and we have not got room for another white man, therefore if you ordered me to receive no more white men than there are now, that would cover it, until there exists a vacancy, and that a probate judge's order will be filed and as a vacancy occurs the patients may be taken in. That is the custom in some States. 0 . Is there any effort made to go behind this certificate from the different counties to ascertain whether they are correct or not? A. Do I try? Q. Yes? Do you go behind those, or do you always accept them as true ? A. I have told you that I have been for 24 years in asylum work. I want to say for the credit of the people I -have had to deal with, that I have never had a suspicion in my mind that anybody was being unjustly committed to an institution. I want to say that in justice to the probate judges and to the physicians. I have never had the inquiry in my mind in half a dozen cases in that time. When two physicians and a probate judge say a person is insane I accept it as prima facie evidence that he is insane. Q. And you inquire no further? A. I don’t think I would be justified in the light of my experience with the men of this State to go further than this commitment? Q. If you had a suspicion that something was wrong, then you would go behind it? A. When I have had a suspicion, and I tell you it has been exceedingly rarely, I have gone further. Let me make it a little more clear. We have patients who come here com¬ mitted as insane, and those patients do not show any signs of in¬ sanity, and may be a month may go by, or may be two months, and we have an idea and we often say, the probate judge and the two doctors were mistaken, and then we have sent out those persons. I have a case in mind here where a patient remained several weeks and never showed any signs of insanity that Dr. Saunders or I 3^9 could detect and we sent her out, and a week she was back and has been crazy ever since. Q. One of the charges is that when patients come here that you don’t make any effort to find out whether they are proper subjects of the institution ? A. O, yes, we do. 0 . What steps do you take under these facts that you have testi¬ fied to? What do you do to ascertain? A. Those patients are ex¬ amined. Q. By the physician ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who? A. The physician of that department. Q. If a female, who examines her? A. Dr. Sanders. Q. White female?. A. Dr. Saunders. Q. White male? A. Dr. Thompson. Q. Colored female? A. Dr. Babcock. Q. Negro male? A. Dr. Griffin. Q. Do they go into that examination? A. Yes, sir. Q. How fully are they examined? A. Well, that depends a good deal on the patient’s condition. As I say we have patients to come in here like this one I have told you about. Dr. Saunders examined her, and I went in there, and could find nothing wrong with her. Q. Do you make a medical examination taking into consideration the state and the condition of the patient so as to ascertain whether the patient is a fit subject for this institution? A. We do. Q. Is that carefully looked after? A. To the best of my knowl¬ edge. Q. In your own department do you look carefully? A. I do. Re¬ member, I do not entertain a suspicion against the doctors or the judges of probate. Q. Here is just the question. Here are the charges that you have not gone into that- The Chairman—Have you known or expected that physicians ever signed the certificates without making a personal examination? A. If that is ever done, it is done when the physician is absolutely con¬ versant with the history of his patient, and knows exactly what he is doing. For instance, if a man is known as being notoriously a drunkard, or if his insanity is known to the whole community, I have no doubt that physicians at times have not made a personal examination, but I don't think that happens once in 500 times. The case that I cited to you of this little girl who was brought here as an emergency case, we have not been able to get the papers. Q, State whether it comes under your observation that physicians 24—A. 3/0 are careless ? A. They are not careless about their examinations. I think sometimes a doctor does not always write out those things. I remember this certificate was made by myself and Judge Ray from the New York law. It was taken bodily from the New York law, and this whole thing is based on the New York law, that is, from the New York Lunacy Commission. We decided that form was the best we could get. I don’t think physicians are careless about it, but I do think in the case of this young girl, when he realized the girl’s condition, I don’t think that he recalled for a moment that the law required two physicians to examine her, and I think he just picked her up and sent her here. Mr. Dick—Are records kept of those examinations, or not? When is it best to examine them, immediately after they come in? A. They are examined as soon as possible. Often, if they are violent, they can not be properly examined. Mr. Carey—What is the best time to ascertain their condition ? A. In a week. We have this feeling, Mr. Carey: When a patient comes in—very often they come in exceedingly violent, and in the course of a week their violence usually goes down. Q. That is the best time? A. Yes, sir. Q. You can tell us a little more about those inebriates. There is a provision of the statute that does not allow the reception of them when you are in an over-crowded condition. What do you do about that? A. Mr. Carey, as I told you— Q. Unless they are insane? A. There is a certificate by two phy¬ sicians and that certificate is accepted by the probate judge, and we are ordered to receive them. Q. Do you except these inebriates, etc., from your regular form? A. No, sir. Q. You do not receive them under that section that allows them to come in as voluntary patients ? A. The Board of Regents stopped it a dozen years ago. They told me never to receive them as volun¬ tary patients, but that they must come in directly in accordance with the rules for other patients, and I carry out those instructions of the board. Q. They are only received as insane? A. Yes, sir; absolutely. Q. When they are received, they come in as any other patients here? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the rule about pay patients?. A. The law says they must pay. O. Do you carry out that provision ?. A. As far as we can. 37 1 The county officials evade the law in regard to it! It is more hon¬ ored in the breach than in the observance.” Q. Do you breach it here ? A. We can notify the county officials, as is often done, sir. Q. What about that bond that is required to be given, and the $41 required to be paid? A. They usually evade it. It is usually not prepared. When the application is received as a beneficiary, we call attention to the requirement that they can only be received as pay patients—that is, as to inebriates—Very often the probate judges when it is called for evade it in some way. Q. Then the patient must be a pay patient under that section? Do you send them to the probate judges? A. Yes, sir. Q. They are sent by you? A. Yes, sir. Q. When it gets back to the probate judge what is done about it? A. The probate judge very often says I am going to refer this to the county commissioners, and when they reply we will send the money, but very often they do not do it. Q. Does not the record read against the county? A. Yes, sir, but they will not pay it. Q. You can sue them. What I want to get at is how particular you are? A. We are as particular as we can be, but in many of those instances the counties will not pay unless we sue them, you see. Q. Have you ever? A. Never have sued them. Mr. Sawyer—Have you had many of them as patients? A. Yes, sir; we average about twenty-five of them per year. Q. What about the $41.60 the statute says must be paid in ad¬ vance? A. We call attention-to it, and ask for it. Q. The statute says “no such beneficiary patient shall be admitted unless the county from which patient comes shall, at the time of admission and as a prerequisite thereto, pay to the said superinten¬ dent two months’ board ($41.60) in advance?” A. They come here without the money. Q. Do you receive them without the money? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many have you got in here now that you have decided ought to be pay patients and do not? A. I recall one right now. We think he is an inebriate, and notified the judge of probate of his county, and he says they refuse to pay, and that they insist that the man is crazy, that the inebriacy is a result of his being crazy, and not his being crazy of inebriacy. Q. They claim that he is received as insane? A. We say he is an inebriate, and he is committed as such here. 372 0 . If you pronounce him an inebriate, which says the money must be paid as a prerequisite to his admission, how do you get around the statute? A. We try to get it from the probate judge and the amount is not paid. In the meantime the man is brought here. It is an easy thing theoretically to say to them to take him back home, we will not receive him. We can’t do that. If a man is brought a hundred miles in the State of Georgia, an inebriate, if the law is not complied with absolutely and fully, he is not received. Q. You mean you haven’t got the heart to turn them away? A. I do. I mean I am not going to punish a man who has been brought a hundred miles, not at his own volition, and because the law has not been complied with, why should I punish him for it? Q. How many have you in here now who are not insane? A. I don’t suppose we have more than five or six now. Q. What is the average? A. We receive about twenty-five in the course of a year. Q. About twenty-five? A. More or less. Q. llow long do they usually stay ? A. Two months. The Board of Regents has worked very faithfully over this question of inebriates, and you gentlemen and everybody that has studied into this problem, know that it is one of the most serious questions that society has to deal with. Members of the Legislature for a number of years have wanted to pass a law that they shall not be admitted. They asked for a law to be passed prohibiting the admission of inebriates. My position is this: It would be a great blessing if we were so that we did not have to receive them, but until you provide some other receptacle for them for the protection of innocent women and chil¬ dren, we have got to receive them here. Q. If I understand you, if you make a technical violation of the statutes, it is in the interest of humanity? A. That is the sole pur¬ pose. We try to live up to the letter of the law, but I think we are likely to strain it. You know that human law cannot cover every case. Q. You mean you try to live up to the spirit of the law, not the letter? A. The letter, as far as you can. To go back to this diffi¬ culty, suppose I had said to those gentlemen, take her back to the sea coast. I will not receive her. You have not complied with the law ? 0 . If they commit an idiot as dangerously insane, and you dis¬ cover that idiocv is the trouble, what do you do and say, when there 373 are no signs of danger? A. Danger is susceptible to a wide inter¬ pretation. Q. As a rule are they that way? A. I have seven negro boys here so small that I am afraid to put them with negro men, and I have got those seven little idiot negro boys with the negro women. Q. The children who get in here, are they committed by the judge of probate under the regular form of admission into the institution? A. Absolutely. Since your commission was in session I submitted to your Chairman an application, a letter on which the names of a brother and sister appear, seven and six years old. I don’t say two, but one of them wanted those two feeble-minded children in here. The Chairman—I thought that indicated carelessness, doctor? A. I don’t think that was carelessness. 1 think that that was. made in good faith, and after you had considered it quite a while, and it did not come within your province, and 1 left it to two members of the Board of Regents who had served a long time, and who had held me responsible for receiving six hundred like these seven idiot chil¬ dren. I left it to this body of gentlemen. And they told me to inform the probate judge that those persons were not proper sub¬ jects for admission to this asylum. After that opinion from my superior officers I so notified the judge of probate. If it had been left to me I would have received them and done the best I could with them. Q. How many idiots do you think you have in here? A. We have little children in here five, six, seven and eight years old that no other asylum in the United States would receive. Q. How many? A. Off-hand, twenty-five. Q. About twenty-five idiots? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many epileptics? A. O, we must have one hundred and fifty. Q. Do you observe the same rule? A. Absolutely. Q. Committed as insane? A. Yes, sir. You gentlemen must understand that I am personally and officially responsible for receiv¬ ing these patients. The Board of Regents is not responsible, but I want to make it clear that I differ with the gentlemen of the Board of Regents for not receiving those two white children. Crowded as we are, I think it was charity to have those two patients come here and we would do the best we could for them. Bad as we are, we like to have an institution, and I feel that we are better than the poorhouse to which they have been assigned, though it is one of the best poorhouses in South Carolina. When you go through these 374 wards and find these paralyzed children who have worn out their welcome at home you find them here. It is very easy for you to say it is an imposition on the people. Theoretically it is. Practically the Board of Regents have not forbidden me, but my idea is to ad¬ minister the institution with the broadest charity, and that it is bet¬ ter to receive those children than to keep them at their homes. 0 . They charge that you will not let them out. Whose duty is it to discharge? A. That comes through the assistant physician to me, arid, Mr. Carey, it is a satisfaction to any doctor when his patient gets well, but it is the one single consolation that comes into the life of a doctor here to have an insane person recover. Q. Have you observed the statute that makes it the duty of the Board of Regents to discharge? A. When we had six, seven or eight hundred patients, all patients were discharged by the Board of Regents. When the Board of Regents came they divided them¬ selves up into committees, and considered each case when a patient came before the board, may be, thirty, forty or fifty, but with the population we have now, the effort is to keep them moving, and instead of having one day in the month to discharge them, we dis¬ charge them just as rapidly as we can. We try to keep the popu¬ lation moving. Q. Who does that now? A. The assistant physician and the su¬ perintendent. They discharge. Q. Has the Board of Regents vested the discretion in you as su¬ perintendent? A. They practically have, because they found that they could not. Q. Are they judges? A. They had to take our recommendation when they did discharge. Q. You act largely upon the recommendation of the physician in charge? A. I do. I think that was brought out from Dr. Thomp¬ son. He had no patient in his department that he could recall at present who could be sent out with any reasonable degree of safety. O. The complaint is that under the law they are entitled to an absolute discharge. Instead of giving them an absolute discharge, you qualify it? A. I will show you the law for that. Q. 2259? A. Whenever we can we like to recommend the dis¬ charge of patients and we do it. Under this law patients are dis¬ charged on furlough, Section 2259. Q. This is the form I wanted you to explain? A. This is our record under that law. Q. When a patient is out on furlough? A. That makes it clear 375 that the patient goes out on furlough, and on the request of the relatives and not because we discharge them as well. Q. When you give them this, it certifies that it is a case of fur¬ lough and not a discharge? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you discharge a patient as cured? A. Recovered, if you please. Q. When they recover and go out, do they go out under any conditions? A. No, sir. Q. It is an absolute and free discharge? A. None at all. Q. Have you a discharge? Do you ever grant them a discharge? A. Yes, sir, we do it constantly. Q. And the Board of Regents vests you with that power? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that is done mainly upon your advice? A. Yes, sir. Q. You don’t hamper a patient out on furlough with any state¬ ment that that is against your advice? A. No, sir, never. Q. What is the purpose of putting that in ? A. That again is a formula that comes from the New York Lunacy Commission. Let me give you an instance of the use of that. The most natural thing in the world when one finds himself locked up is to feel that an injustice has been done him, and our patients finding themselves locked up in the asylum, resent it as you or I would. They try by various means to get out. Very often their friends will not take them. Then, if they can get a lawyer, the lawyer comes and he takes out habeas corpus proceedings. Mr. Sawyer—On behalf of the patient? A. The superintendent says, I am not going to let him out, and the lawyer says, if you don’t turn him out, I am going to take out habeas corpus pro¬ ceedings. Now, I never care to drive anybody to institute habeas corpus proceedings. The Board of Regents tell me to do it, to let them institute habeas corpus proceedings, but knowing that it is at great expense to his family, I can’t tell you off-hand what it is right now, but I have got it into my head some way that it costs upwards of a hundred dollars. Now, when they wish to take a patient out that we do not consider well, we ask them to sign that receipt rather than go to the expense of a habeas corpus proceeding. Q. If I understand, the signing of that paper is in case of fur¬ lough, but when you discharge that as recovered, he goes free? A. Certainly. Q. Hampered with no statement of your advice? A. No, sir. 376 Q. You would not turn them out if your advice was that they would be retained? A. No, sir. Q. Do you report your recoveries anywhere? A. In the annual report. The Chairman—Does that also include this stay of three months if they prove to be well? A. Yes, sir. Q. Does it show those that are sent out annually and recovered? A. Not separately. Q. Your records would show that? A. These are recorded. Q. Those that are sent out annually and recover are recorded? A. Yes, sir. Q. But they are not separated in the report? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the rule with reference to inebriates—do they kick about being kept in here? .A. The law says sixty days, when a man comes as an inebriate the first time, he stays sixty days, and then goes out. Q. Does he go out under one of these forms? A. Not usually. The regents in studying this problem, tried to elaborate some prin¬ ciple, the first time sixty days. If they come back the second time, they double it to four months. They have been studying the ques¬ tion of chronic inebriety considerably. Q. The point 1 wanted to get at was whether they were unreas¬ onably kept in here after they ought to be out? A. No. I want to make it clear. I want to make it clear as to the seriousness of this problem. In the report for 1905 you will find this caption, “Modern Charity Administration.” That sums up as clearly and perfectly what you might call the inebriety problem as anything I have seen. Q. Have you ever kept inebriates that you thought ought to go out? A. No, sir. Q. Is it your rule to let him out as soon as you think it proper that he should go? A. Yes, sir. Q. When he comes in do you require a guaranty on the part of the county commissioners ? A. I do in some cases, the Board of Regents do in some cases. Q. That is another objection, that you require the same thing to withdraw a man if he is a notorious inebriate, whose history is that of an inebriate who has exhausted the patience of his family and friends. To withdraw him you require a certificate to that effect? A. Just the same in form. Q. Have you got one? A. That is the sole certificate. 377 Q. That is for the same reason you require those who are not inebriates? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that the custom among institutions of this kind to have some such form as that? A. As I tell you, this is the New York form. Q. What about other institutions? A. I cannot tell you. I know it is the form in Georgia, because the superintendent of the Georgia hospital introduced it from this institution over there. At least, he wrote me and said he wanted to introduce it. Q. It is the form used in other institutions? A. Yes, sir. In my experience there has been no board that has studied the prob¬ lem of insanity like the New York Lunacy Commission. They un¬ derstand this phase of the problem, and whenever I have been able, I have borrowed an idea from the New York Lunacy Commission. Q. Does that result in people staying in here who ought to be out ? A. The friends often demur. Q. They don’t want to sign? A. They very often do not. Q. Is it not because when they have applied they do not upon your advice? A. Because they know from experience. Q. They have their own reasons? A. Yes, sir. Q. In case where they are not dangerous, and where they have no reasons, do they readily sign those things? A. Often they do. Q. What is about the proportion of return patients that go out under those furloughs? A. Very often they come back. Q. When they come back, they do not come at the expense of the State? A. Yes, sir, this says so. That is the law, that they shall pay all traveling expenses of the patient from and back to the hospital. Q. How do they come, at the expense of the State ? A. No, sir. Q. A few come back? A. Yes, sir. This law of furlough is fair, in the first place, to the individual; in the second place, to the county, and in the third place, to the institution. It is an admir¬ able law. Q. It is charged that in your management of the asylum that you dominate the Board of Regents. Is there anything in that ? A. You understand that I came here after a long absence. I came here after a long absence from the State, and it was the most natural thing in the world for this board and myself to have been at logger- heads. I think may be for the first year there were certain members of the board who most honestly and naturally eyed me with sus¬ picion and sized me up. Gradually there sprang up between those 378 members and myself the pleasantest of friendships that I have had in a life of many happy friendships. I remember two physicians on this board in particular. The board often differs with me, but the difference is honest. They have always done me the honor to listen to my pet theories that I may have from the time I have been here advocating, but as for my dominating the Board of Re¬ gents, or for the Board of Regents to be dominating me, I think that is impossible. O. Are you working in harmony with each other ? A. The board ? Q. Yes, sir? A. From my point of view it has been extraordi¬ narily harmonious. Q. You are not at loggerheads now, are you? A. With this board ? Q. Yes? A. I think may be the only questions between this board and myself arises out of economy. Q. Do you undertake to dictate to the board what they should do and should not do, or are your relations in the form of a con¬ ference? A. It is the most sincere conference and confidence. I am the subordinate officer of the board, and I can say honestly in all my dealings with them I have never kept back from them one single matter of any importance connected with this institution. Uniformly I go out of my way to tell them of petty things that I think often bore them, but they listen to me with great patience. Q. As far as you are concerned, you undertake to keep within your own line of duty and dominate nobody? Do I understand that? A. I have no cause to interfere and try to force my opinions upon them. Q. Some seem to think that you have and that you have been asked about it? A. If I have done so, I have done so unconsciously. 0 . The questions I ask are from what is put before me? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who employs the nurses, and I am going to confine myself to the male side? A. I do. Q. You are vested with that authority under the board? A. Un¬ der the board. Q. Under the Board of Regents? You are appointed by the Gov¬ ernor? A. Yes, sir. Q. At a salary of how much ? A. Three thousand dollars. Q. They are appointed by the Governor? A. They are. Q. They control the money part of the institution, if I under¬ stand you? A. They are the trustees. 379 Q. And the employment of nurses comes to you? A. Yes, sir. Q. By virtue of the authority they have conferred upon you? A. Yes, sir. Q. What class of people do you get your nurses from? A. We have a great many applications from all walks of life. I think I will say almost every walk, but we prefer whenever we can to get young men, and young men right from the country. Those are our choice. Q. What do you pay the young men? A. Twenty-five dollars. Q. How many have you in the institution? A. We haven’t as many as we ought to have, because just at present— Q. I believe Dr. Thompson testified that there were about fifteen on his side, is that about correct? A. I think that is about correct. I think we have gotten in one or two more. Q. The character of those nurses, how particular are you about that? A. I did not know until Dr. Thompson testified, I did not know that the doctor wished to employ them. I have employed them, because it is an unpleasant duty. It is exceptional that I employ them without seeing them myself, and I have selected those young men with as much character as I possibly could do it. Q. Have they been satisfactory as a rule, or do you make mis¬ takes? A. I make mistakes sometimes. Q. What do you do when you find that you have made a mistake? A. I let them go. Q. Have you ever kept a nurse knowing that they were cruel to patients? A. I have never shielded a man who was brought up on the ground of cruelty. When the question of cruelty came up there was no defense. They were discharged. If there have been excep¬ tions it was because my attention was not strongly called to it. I think there was a case brought up of a young man named - abused by an attendant. I have gone over that matter with Dr. Thompson. Mr. Mitchell mentioned it to me, but Dr. Thompson says he never spoke to me about it, so the. matter was overlooked. Q. And other cases were mentioned, one of them resisted an at¬ tendant. Do you recollect what was done in that case? A. I can only tell you what my rule was. Q. What is your rule? A. To let them go without any defense. Q. Is it against the rules of the institution to allow violence? A. It is. Q. Without regard to the cause? Suppose that self-defense in a case should arise? A. If you accept self-defense, there may be 380 instances in which that is correct, but it is not fair to the patient to allow that as a defense. Q. You make no exceptions? A. Yes, I have made exceptions, but it has been from oversight and not from intention or habit. Let me trv to make clear what my feeling is about abusing patients. I want to make this clear, and I cannot make it clearer than by reiterating what has been brought out today. It is exceptional that I see an act of abuse. I caught a man named Kinard abusing a patient. I am a man of peace, but when I caught him I caned him. Q. Who was that? A. A man named Kinard. Q. How long has that been? A. It was when McSweeney was Governor. I went and reported it to him. Q. Was he discharged? A. Yes, sir; he went right out then. Q. Have you ever held a man in here after hearing of any cruelty by him? A. I would have said no, if these matters which completely escaped my recollection, had not been brought up here today. Q. That is only the Belcher case? A. Yes, sir. Q. That has been the only man retained? A. Yes, sir. If there have been others, it has not been from intention or habit or purpose, because that is one thing upon which I have convictions, and I act upon those convictions, too. Q. Was there any neglect in those things not reaching you, doctor? A. No, I don’t want say there was neglect on the part of anybody else. O. Was there any on the part of yourself that you never ascer¬ tained? A. Yes, sir, I think that was partly it, I think I should have looked into it, but when that Belcher case came up, it came up when I was being driven may be a dozen different ways. It was a very busy day, and all sorts of things crowding in upon me, and after Dr. Thompson came back he tells me he never called my attention to it. Q. What is your recollection as to Mr. Mitchell calling your at¬ tention to the case? A. Mr. Mitchell says he called my attention to it. If he says so it is probably correct, but you must remember that at that time I was probably doing three persons’ work, and the thing completely escaped me. Q. How long ago has that been? A. Four years approximately. Q. Have you since you have been connected with this institution ever condoned or winked at anything like abuse of any kind, teas- 3«i ing patients, assaults, cruel mistreatment or anything of that kind? A. If I have ever done so, it has been done unwittingly, sir. Q. Is your face set against that kind of thing in here, doctor? A. If I have any other reputation I am very much surprised, sir. Q. Would you have allowed it? A. I should not. Q. Have you any of that character of nurses in here now, work¬ ing here? A. I have a question mark after two or three individuals I am not satisfied with. Q. You are investigating those men ? A. Those individuals. Q. If you reach the conclusion that they are unfit, what is the result? A. They must go. Q. Have you power to discharge? A. I most assuredly have. Q. You employ and discharge? A. I do. Q. What has been your custom as to the investigation of these cases coming to you through Dr. Thompson? A. Dr. Thompson's report on that thing is final. If the doctor says a patient has been abused, reports that a nurse has abused a patient, that is final. Q. You accept that report? A. I do. and without question. Q. It does not require any separate investigation at all? A. Not at all. Q. Has Dr. Thompson and his corps of helpers the same author¬ ity in their ward as Dr. Saunders and her corps in her side? A. Surely. Q. The very same rules and regulations apply to both of them? A. Yes, sir. Q. How do you come in those departments? Do they consult you when matters come up ? A. They do constantly day by day, and several times a day. Q. You are always ready to enter into conference with them when consulted? A. If I am not very much mistaken. Q. Have you ever declined to? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. I suppose they don’t come to you unless it is something extra¬ ordinary? A. I have really felt that in handling these young men I was doing Dr. Thompson a favor in protecting him. If it had occurred to me that Dr. Thompson wanted the authority up there to hire and discharge, it would have been an immense relief to me to have given it to him. Q. What has been your impression as to having enough nurses in there? A. It varies in all institutions. Sometimes the supply is good and abundant, and at other times it is not. Just at this time we have an unusually good supply of young women. Q. I mean on the men’s side? . A. We have not got enough for the reason that I have not been able to satisfy myself that the indi¬ viduals applying were suitable persons. Q. Do you have much difficulty in holding them after you get them. A. Yes, sir, by the time a young man comes here and begins to be really useful to us, he finds that he can get better pay. It is a common thing for them to come and stay a few months, and then find something that pays them better, and so they go. Q. Who has charge, primary charge, of the cleanliness of those wards? A. Well, primarily, it is the nurses; secondly, it is the supervisor; and thirdly, it is the assistant physician of the wards. Q. Was there any complaint out of those wards about their being dirty, unsanitary, filthy, full of bedbugs, and things of that kind? A. I knew that they had bedbugs. We are always fighting them. They were here when I came here and are here yet, and the fight is daily, hourly, consistently going on. Q. How about the difficulty of removing them? A. I think that depends very much upon the individual. I think you will find that one nurse is efficient in making that fight, and another is not. Q. Is it impossible to stamp them out on the male side? A. I don’t know why it should be. Q. They can be got rid of? A. It can be done. The old build¬ ing over there you will understand is getting on towards eighty. Q. That is for the colored women? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are there any over there? A. Not many, but some. There is a daily fight going on against them. Q. Are there any in Dr. Saunders’ department that you know of? A. They crop out now and then, and then the whole ward is overturned and they are eliminated. Q. Stamped out? A. Yes, sir. Q. To what extent according to your observation do they prevail in these male wards? A. As I said that depends to a certain extent upon the vigilance of the nurses, but it is not necessary for me to call your attention to the fact that housekeeping comes more na¬ tural to a woman than it does to a man, and therefore the house¬ keeping department is better on the women’s side than it is on the men’s side. You see, you gentlemen are grappling with problems that have been fought out and threshed out from time immemorial in hospitals and asylums. The difficulty of getting proper nurses for men in all institutions is so great that one of the questions up at any asylum is the employment of female nurses in rhe 383 male wards. I have tried that here. I have had a man and his wife in. charge of the ward for white men. That matter is one of them, if you will allow me, fads of asylum life today. It is one of the problems that is being experiemented with. Q. Have any complaints ever come up to you about bathing pa¬ tients in the same water? A. I have heard of it in other institutions, but never in this. Q. Dr. Thompson told you he never, and Mr. Mitchell he never? You don’t know whether it is a fact or not that such things have happened? A. If such a thing has happened, it has been without my knowledge, or that of Mr. Mitchell and Dr. Thompson. Q. If you had known such a thing was going on, what would you have done? A. If I had known of an attendant doing such a thing 1 would have discharged him. Q. At once? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have any complaints ever come to you about the uncleanliness of the nurses? A. You mean of their clothing? O. Yes, sir? A. No, sir. Q. Have any complaints ever reached you that the patients were not kept clean? A. No, sir. Q. Allowed to lie in their filth? A. No, sir. Of course, we have a great many patients who are untidy, and the struggle to keep all bedridden and paralyzed patients clean, and remember we receive those patients that have worn out their welcome at home, and we do the very best we can for them, but any practicing physician will tell you that it is the hardest problem he has before him to keep that class of patients clean. Q. What are your instructions along that line? A. It is im¬ mediately when soiled to change them. Q. Immediately? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you keep the necessary clothing for them ? A. As far as 1 know. If there is not the necessary clothing it is the fault of the nurses on the ward, or the fault of the supervisor for not putting in the proper requisition to get the clothing. Q. Have you had complaints to reach you that they were feeding them with dirty food ? A. Not that they were giving them dirty food. You understand that the conditions which you are rather 1 emphasizing now are conditions which are inherent in the construc¬ tion of the building which I found when I came here, and those complaints have been made by Dr. Thompson and Mr. Bunch to 3*4 me, and we have done the best we could to remedy them with the facilities that we have had at hand. Q. That is as to the preparation of the food? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think the fault lies in the want of facilities, doctor? A. I do, and the Board of Regents is fully aware of the inadequacy of the arrangement. Q. Have they been trying to remedy it? A. We have been dis¬ cussing plans and taking them under advisement as to whether the present store room should not be made a central kitchen. You must get it clearly in your minds that these complaints of the food do not come from the buildings which I have constructed. That main kitchen and the dining room the Board of Regents for two years or more have considered whether we should not take the present store room and make a kitchen for the white men, and put the store room elsewhere. The mistake was made in making that kitchen a part of the central building. There should have been an air space be¬ tween the portion represented by the kitchen, the dining room and the chapel and the amusement room. They should have put that in this portion of the building. That was a mistake in construction. Then we would have had an opportunity for expansion and growth. The Board of Regents has gone to the kitchen and considered the plan to combine the chapel and the amusement hall, and try to develop the present chapel into an auxiliary dining room for white men. I think Mr. Bunch brought it out as one of the plans we had under contemplation. Q. We will take that as a recommendation. Q. The want of facilities you state is the cause of the food not being as it should be? A. Yes, sir. Q. What about the cleanliness in the kitchen? A. Mr. Bunch and I have gone over that matter. Four or five months ago we con¬ sidered whether it would be advisable to employ a man of some dis¬ cretion and judgment who should first of all be a dairyman for the dairy and the kitchen, who would simply have to go around, and go around and go around—not that we did not feel that such a person was needed, but it was a question where we could get the individual we wanted. Q. Did you employ Mr. Earle? A. I employed Mr. Earle. Q. Do you employ the rest of the kitchen help? A. Usually. Q. Do you think that it is competent ? A. It is the best we have been able to get. O. Do you think it is kept as clean as they can keep it? 385 A. We have had complaint about that. I told them to keep it clean, and, as I say, with all the other duties upon them, it seems to the satisfaction of the resident officers, and Mr. Bunch and I have debated this question whether there should not be a man who would be a sanitary dairyman, looking after not only the dairy, but the kitchen and all those things. Q. What is your observation about the running of the dairy, doc¬ tor? A. That dairy has been like other things in the institution. It has been a matter of slow development. It has been evolved not along the line of economy, and the question of the milkers was con¬ stantly a source of worry and trouble. It has been to the Board of Regents. The class of help that we were given there were just young negro men about town. Often they struck, and there would be no¬ body there, and there would be no milking done. So, after con¬ ference with Mr. Bunch, and finally with the Board of Regents, and we decided that the very best thing that we could do would be to first put a house over there and employ negro women to do the milking. The objection was that we did not have the money to put up a brick house, and we did not like to put negro women over there in a wooden house, if we decided to pull down an old shack we had here and put the lumber into a building, but negro women was the scheme. There were reasons why we did not like to see negro women of a helpless class so remote from the institution. Finally after that we selected these negro men to do the milking. Q. What is your observation as to the cleanliness over there of the men ? A. We have had Mr. Hedgepath over there. Q. Have you observed any uncleanliness? A. One of the most satisfactory features of the institution had been the milk supply. I regarded it as the very best thing we had. Q. Did any reports ever come to you that it was filthy, that milk? A. For a long time I used to go to the dairy and watch it strained and all that. Q. Was it ever reported to you, and did you ever look into it? A. No, it was never reported to me. Q. What is your judgment of the character of it? A. In spite of the criticism upon it, my honest opinion is that the milk is of an unusually good quality in every respect. It is wholesome milk. Q. Do your patients relish it? A. I think so, sir. Q. Is it watered? A. No, sir. ’ Q. You give it to them in the form of milk ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever discovered any filth in the milk? A. No, sir. 25—A. 386 Dr. Taylor—The danger from milk comes from the presence of fever germs? Typhoid fever? A. That is one of the dangers. Q. That is the principal one? A. Yes, sir. Q. That we fear in reference to milk? A. Yes, sir. Q. Has there ever been a case or an epidemic of typhoid fever in this institution that could be by any stretch of the imagination put upon the milk? A. Every year we have a few cases. In the time that I have been here there has been only one that I remember, and that was two years ago at this time. Q. If it was the milk it would be general? A. Yes, sir. Q. You never had a general epidemic here ? A. No, sir. Q. Confined to one ward ?. A. If it was the milk it would have been general. There has never been any evidence that there was any pollution of the milk, or any contamination, or any dangerous germs in the milk. Mr. Carey—Is that true of all the stuff that comes from the farm? Is it fresh and palatable? A. If it were not for the farm and its products it would be absolutely impossible, in my opinion, for us to get along at all. We would just simply have to do what most of the Southern asylums are on the verge of doing, open the doors and turn the people out. Q. How would your farm stuff compare with what you would have to buy as to quality? A. We can not buy the same quality. Q. If you could buy it in the city, would it be as good as this? A. No, sir. Q. Are the vegetables served fresh ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Good corn? A. Yes, sir. Q. And grown on the premises? A. Yes, sir. Q. So that everything that comes from the farm is just as good as a farmer would get at his home? A. Yes, sir. Q. So far as the raw material is concerned? A. Yes, sir. Q. They charge here that you retain patients here who ought to be discharged and make them work on the farm? Is there anything in that? A. No, sir, nobody in this institution has ever been forced to work. If they work it is of their own volition, and that entirely. Q. Is that a set rule? A. Yes, sir. Q. For blacks and whites? A. Yes, sir. I think now and then the only departure from that is occasionally some colored women would circulate among the colored women and say they should not work. Whenever I have known of that in my department, I have had those women who were stirring up strife locked up. 38 / Q. Are any of those laborers on the farm forced to work? A. No, sir, none that I know of. Q. Is it the rule that they shall not be forced? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there any case where you are paying a nominal salary to laborers? A. Yes, sir; and we have had some regularly hired laborers that have been discharged, who worked on the farm and received full pay. Q. What is your rule about paying employees for their work on the farm ? A. All the people who do a little work about the place they give a little something. The man who works with them is given a dollar to buy little knick knacks for them. Q. Mr. - made complaints about not being able to reach you? A. Application was made to me by Mr.-. He wanted to be gateman. I found that in my absence he had been gateman over there, and Mr. Mitchell said he gave him no end of trouble. He gave him more trouble than anybody else that we ever had there. Mr. Mitchell put it on the ground that it would be a personal favor to him not to appoint him. Q. You did not think he was fit for it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that your reason? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was he retained after you thought he ought to go out of here? A. When Mr.-left he left under those papers. Q. One of those receipts? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was he kept in here against the wishes of his people, doctor? A. He was not kept here against the wishes of his people to my knowledge. I applied to his brother myself to take him out and he would not do it. (The commission thereupon adjourned for dinner.) Columbia, S. C., 18 May, 1909. Pursuant to adjournment, the Commission met this afternoon to resume the hearing. Present: The members of the commission. The Chairman, presiding. Dr. J. W. Babcock, recalled, testified as follows, being examined by Mr. Carey: Q. Just as we adjourned before dinner you handed me this re¬ lease of Mr. -. Was that when he finally when out of here? A. Yes, sir, as far as we could understand. I applied to his brother. 388 Dr. Thompson had applied to his father-in-law. They were notified to have him come home before he got his attorneys, Mr. Gibbes and Mr. Prince, and they filed that in the Attorney-General’s office. Mr. Lyon was entirely familiar with the case, and rather objected to Mr. - going out under that form. He thought that it would be better to let him institute habeas corpus proceedings, but Mr. Prince and Mr. Gibbes agreed that he was not to go to Abbeville, but he told me he went home the next day. Q. I notice that it is dated November 23, 1908. Was that when he got out finally? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you regard that as a furlough or a discharge? A. A furlough. 0 . When he did not return in ninety days he was discharged from the institution ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are any conditions attached to that? A. No, sir. Q. Was there any trouble about Mr. - getting out? A. No, sir. Q. Do you think either got out too late? A. My recollection is that Mr. -himself testified that he got out within a month of the time of his recovery. Mr.-case is rather different. There you are dealing with a man who is suffering with a depleted con¬ dition. He is in a very unstable mental condition. You gentlemen, as laymen, must have observed how nervous he was, and how a little excitement would bowl him over. Those are the cases where great caution is to be exercised. 0 . Do you know of any cases where the proper parties have suf¬ ficiently recovered to go out? A. Yes, sir; I know of two cases. I know a case of a colored man and his wife. They got under a religious spell, underwent a period of fasting, and in the meanwhile felt that they were in close communion with the Almighty, and thought they received orders from him to sacrifice their child. So, they cut the child’s throat with the understanding that the child was to be restored to life at the end of three days. They were ar¬ rested and put in jail, and I think properly committed to the asylum. Q. Are they in here yet? A. They are in here. My opinion has been for a long while, and I have advocated it to legal members of the General Assembly, that when a case is to be committed to the asylum for a homicide, or for escape from a penalty of crime, that those cases ought always to be committed by the circuit judge. Q. We will take that along with your recommendations? A. And that they be discharged by a vote of the General Assembly. 3«9 Q. Are they committed in that way? A. By the circuit judge? Q. Many criminals? A. No, but the feeling in that community was that those people had been good citizens. They are well, and I have been talking it over with Mr. Gless whether it would not be better to give them a trial at home, there being no law in such matters. These homicide cases, these cases where they feel they have received a communication from God, are the most dangerous type of insanity. You may recall this phase in the Guiteau case, when he murdered President Garfield. Q. Do you think they ought to be out? A. They have recovered as much as they ever will recover. They have been here three or four years. I think the public opinion in their own community would receive them favorably for a trial. Q. Have they asked to be released? A. O, yes, sir. Q. Is there anybody else in here now? A. No; I just recollect those two cases. 0 . Do you recollect the case of-? A. Yes, sir; he has, Mr. Carey, recurrent mania. He gets excitable. Q. Mania ? A. He has recurrent attacks. Q. What form? A. He had homicidal tendency; he gets violently excited at times. Q. Has he ever applied to get out? A. Yes, I think so. Q. He is one that it is claimed is kept here unjustly. What have you to say about that? A. His case differs in that he has recurrent attacks of insanity. We have another young man who has recurrent mania. He killed his father. I think Mr.-killed his brother- in-law. Q. Is there any disposition on the part of the Board of Regents to retain them after they reach a point where they can get out? A. No, sir. Q. They are always willing? A. O, yes, sir. The board is more than willing to let them go. Q. Is there any difficulty about furloughs where the people are willing to take the risk? A. None, sir. In fact, but for that method, we would be very much more crowded than we are. Q. You let them out as fast as you feel that you safely can do so? A. Yes, sir; faster than we can recommend it. I don’t know that that form absolves us absolutely from responsibility, but it is a record here that we have not considered the individuals prepared to go out. Q. Is it your custom always to require it, or is it just in cases 390 where you ought to require it? A. Just in cases that we think it advisable. I call your attention to the facts in the case of an aged woman suffering from melancholia. She was here and her family insisted upon taking her out. We could not recommend it, so they signed this, and within two weeks after going home she drowned herself in a well. This is our record that w T e did not approve of that discharge. That may not absolutely absolve us from responsibility, but it is an evidence of the fact that we do not recommend the dis¬ charge of the patient. Q. If I understand you, you do not always require it? A. O, no, only in trial cases. Q. If you think a party is sufficiently recovered to go without a furlough, that is not used? A. Not used. The Chairman—Will you put in evidence the records from 1897 to 1908, and show how many were sent out as recovered, not on furlough, but recovered? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Carey—I want to ask you if there is anything like dis¬ crimination against patients in this institution—in favor of families? A. Favoritism ? Q. Yes, sir. A. Mr. Carey, as far as I know, after very careful deliberation, there has been no favoritism. Q. None? A. The patients are classified by their mental con¬ dition. Q. Do you separate them as far as your accommodations will allow? A. Yes, sir. Q. The more violent are placed to themselves? A. Yes, sir. Q. How about the idiots and the epileptics ? A. The epileptics are placed together as far as possible, not absolutely. Of course, that is one of the questions that we have been contending with. I think this institution is as free from favoritism as it is possible for such an institution to be. Q. Do they eat the same food practically? A. Yes, sir. This question of what is called the little pay room and the big pay room— these pay rooms are not qualified by the payment, and in the white male department there is absolutely no discrimination whatever. Q. Is the food prepared in the same kitchen? A. Not for the white women. Q. Is the food in the little pay room and the big pay room the same? A. Just a little bit better. Those conditions I found here and I have never interfered with them. Mr. Bunch and I found 39 1 them here, and we have never made any departure from it since we came. Q. Are they actually pay patients that go into those rooms, doctor ? A. No, sir. Q. Why assigned to them? A. Very often because they are from the upper classes, and the class that expects a little more. Q. The upper class? A. Yes, sir. Q. As far as the question of pay is concerned, as I understand it, there are not many of the actual pay patients in here. A. No. I think when I came here in round numbers the income from pay patients amounted to about ten thousand dollars. Since then it has dropped. Very often it is not much over five thousand dollars. O. That you realize from pay patients? A. And I make it my business to assure people that there is no discrimination on the basis of pay. Q. Have there been any reports from the inferior departments of the institution that such things have been going on—favoritism? A. I have never heard of any favoritism. Q. No reports to that effect have been called to your attention by the patients or their friends? A. As far as the classification is concerned. It is very hard for the doctor in making his rounds not to have his attention directed a little more to one patient than to another, and to speak to one patient a little more than to another. We are all weak enough to pet some one unusually unfortunate patient. As to myself, if a patient is in here insane, and coupled with the insanity is blind, I never allow myself to pass that person without singling him or her out and saying “good morning, how do you do,” or something of that kind. I don’t know whether any¬ body else is afflicted with that sort of favoritism, but I plead guilty. Q. The last of the charges against the institution is that you are neglectful in regard to the examination of patients in here to ascertain if they are able to get out? What have you to say? A. I don’t know that there is neglect of that. I think with more physicians we could do better clinical work than at least I have been able to do. I am speaking for myself. Q. Is it not a fact that you do make examinations ? A. We make examinations. I make them according to their indications, and direct the other physicians to do the same thing. Q. Do you make them with a view of restoring the patient? A. We do that. We do that as much as possible. Q. What about the question of restoration? Do many of them 392 recover? A. You will find that opinions on that subject differ very greatly. O. What is yours ? A. My idea about an attack of acute insanity, for instance, to bring it home, if mv little girl were to have an attack of acute insanity, and, in the course of six or eight months, were to recover, I should want that child to stay, if she had grown to young womanhood, I should want her to remain in that asylum from a year to eighteen months after she had seemed to be well, for this reason, that the brain is the most delicate organism of the body, and when it has so far lost its integrity that it is necessary to place an individual in an asylum, and, by the mercy of God, more than by the skill of the doctor, that unfortunate one has been restored, to use your word, I don't think that individual ought to be exposed to the wear and tear of ordinary everyday life for a good long period of time. In a crude way I might compare it to a man who has fractured his leg. A man breaks his leg and, in common language, the bones do not knit, and the straps are taken off of that person; what rest could he have before he began to walk? And if it is true of a fractured legbone, why it is very much more true of a delicate mind, the most delicate piece of mechanism, as far as we know, in the universe. I think they should rest for a long time. Q. Do you think, as far as these are concerned, that they remain in here long enough? A. I think all asylums make the mistake of sending the patients out too early. Q. You don’t approve of this furlough system very much, do you? A. I do and I do not. I do because it relieves the pressure here, but if that individual were a kinsman of mine I should want them to rest longer than the average patient is retained in the asylum for a permanent recovery. Q. Could you give us the percentage of recoveries, the average? A. I think it runs from twenty-five per cent, on of the admissions. Q. What is your death rate? A. It is high. Always has been. It is the history of the institution. Mr. Bates—What was the mortality last year? A. It was rather high last year. I cannot give the figures offhand. Q. I notice in the report 257? A. I think about that. Q. That is for 1907. I want to know the number of them for 1908? A. Yes, sir. Q. We haven’t been able to get hold of the report? A. It is in the hands of the printer. Q. How came it to be delayed? A. It was delayed largely by 393 me. There were a great many questions which 1 wished to discuss in that report, which I wanted to discuss, and I did not know just how to discuss them. Q. Can you have it ready in time for us to see it? A. Surely. 1 went to see Mr. Bryan yesterday, and he told me he was running it out then. Q. That is your annual report? A. I did not get it in in time for the Legislature this year. Q. Did you go before the Ways and Means Committee? A. I did in the Senate. Q. Did you lay it before them? A. Yes, sir. Dr. Ray and I did as best we could. Q. How much did you ask for? A. $180,000.00 for mainten¬ ance, $30,000.00 for improvements and repairs, $25,000.00 to furnish the new building, $1,200.00 for the Regents, and I think $500.00 for fire protection. Q. What did they give you? A. $180,000.00 for maintenance, $5,000.00 for improvements and repairs, and $1,200.00 for the Re¬ gents. I think that is all. 0 . They did not give you any for fire protection? A. I think not. Mr. Bunch—I think you have overlooked the matter of insurance? A. I think there was an item of $500.00 for insurance. Mr. Harden—How much did you ask the Finance Committee for for repairs? A. Thirty thousand dollars. I think they had cut that out altogether in the House, and I think we told the Finance Com¬ mittee that if they could not give us thirty thousand to get us ten, and if they could not give 11s ten, to give us at least five thousand. Q. They gave you five? A. Yes, sir. Q. I remember you and Dr.- A. Ray. Q. Five thousand was the amount you got? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Carey—Who put up the new buildings? A. Mr. Carey, that matter has fallen upon me from dire necessity. From 1869 to 1897 almost annually the question was left to the General Assembly to give the means of putting up a brick building for the negro men. My recollection is that Dr. Parker asked for that in 1869. When I came here those negro men were in wooden buildings. They were regular fire traps. And when we could not get a cent, we first made brick here. We excavated and got a supply of clay on the place, and we made brick with our colored men. It was an inferior quality. We got permission from the Legislature to employ convict labor. 394 After that we made a contract with Colonel Lipscomb to make brick. Between others and myself we got together, say from 1893 to 1897, something like two and a half to three million brick. In 1897 the Board of Regents asked the General Assembly to give them ten thou¬ sand dollars to start that brick building for negro men, and the Ways and Means Committee of the House sent for me and asked me if we would not be willing to start the building with five thou¬ sand dollars, and I said, “Gentlemen this has been before you about thirty years. We cannot make a beginning with five thousand dol¬ lars, and we cannot make very much of a showing with ten thousand dollars.” “Well,” they said, “will you undertake to begin it with seven thousand five hundred dollars,” and I says, “We will have to do it.” O. What year was that? A. 1897. Q. Is that the building, the Parker building? A. That building. With the seven thousand five hundred dollars we put those brick to¬ gether. There was not anything left for an architect, and the board says go ahead and do the best you can, and make the money go as far as you can. That let it devolve on me to plan that building, and I started to work on it, and that is the way I started into this thing of putting up the buildings. Q. Is that the Parker building? A. It got up in the year and the money was gone, and I went to Ellerbe and I said: “We have got it up in the air, and the money is gone, and if we leave it six months it is going to be ruined by the weather.” And he says: “How long have you been waiting for it?” and I said “Twenty-seven or twenty- eight years.” He says: “It is unconstitutional, but,” he says, “go ahead and put a roof on the building, and I will lay it before the General Assembly with you.” In that way the building was put under roof, and when the General Assembly met they gave us thirteen thousand five hundred dollars, in all twenty-one thousand dollars for that Parker building. Q. That is what it cost? A. Not what is cost, but that is what the appropriation was for it. Q. When did you build it? A. In a little over a year from the time we started the work on it. Q. Is that the Taylor building? A. No; the Parker building, because Dr. Parker had urged its erection in 1869. Q. Colored men in it? A. Yes, sir. Q. You put up another new building? A. The Taylor building. Q. That is a building for women? A. Yes, sir. 395 Q. Just about Completed? A. Yes, sir. Q. How does the putting up of that building relieve your con¬ gested condition so far as women are concerned ? A. White women. Q. You have ample accommodations for them now? A. Well, we would have ample accommodations if it was furnished as it ought to be. We have got the space, if it was only furnished. Q. What did these buildings cost? A. I will have to give it to you approximately, and I would like for Mr. Bunch to correct me if I am in error as to the amounts. I should say the Taylor building cost something like thirty-seven or forty thousand dollars. Forty thousand dollars, I would say. And the new building cost about fifty or fifty-five thousand dollars, say sixty thousand dollars. Q. That is the North building? A. That is the North building. Q. For women? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many rooms in the new building? A. There will be ac¬ commodations for a hundred patients in there. Q. The Taylor building? A. We have 886 in there today. Q. And there are accommodations for one hundred in the new building? A. I will correct that a little bit. It is a two-story build¬ ing. You gentlemen are familiar enough with the history of school building. For the sake of fire protection a school building is never over two stories high, and that applies not only to school buildings and hospitals, but to insane asylums. You can handle a crowd of in¬ sane people in a two-story building. When you come to three or four stories you increase the danger, the fire risk, very much. The Chairman—Is this price the actual money spent on them ? A. As near as Mr. Bunch and I can figure it out. Q. Twenty-one thousand, forty thousand and sixty thousand? A. That leaves out the Taylor building. I should say that cost about twenty-five thousand. The principal reason, Mr. Chairman, that this construction has been done as economically as it has been done was because we employed, as far as possible, the help of the negro male patients for hod-carriers, excavations and things of that sort. That labor has been utilized in all of these buildings. Q. The price you have mentioned includes just the amount that you paid out ? A. The actual cost. Mr. Ba^es—The Talley building cost forty thousand dollars? A. I would say from thirty-seven to forty thousand dollars. Q. How much did the woman’s building cost? A. I think about fifty-five thousand dollars. Q. Then there is another building? A. The Taylor building cost 396 about twenty-five thousand dollars and the Parker building cost about twenty-one thousand dollars. Mr. Hardin—If you had let those buildings out to architects, do you think you would have had as acceptable buildings as you have? A. I have had no experience with architects. The difference is this: Take this last building. That is all worked out from the inside. You know the English rule is that when an asylum is going to be built, they get the most experienced asylum doctor that they can get, and then they get the most experienced asylum architect, and then they make them work it out together. The doctor's point of view of a hos¬ pital is entirely different from the architect’s point of view 1 , and these buildings that I put up here are simply worked out from the inside. I have no doubt but that architecturally they are defective. They are not pretty to look at, but they are worked out honestly from within for the purpose of the particular class that has been assigned to them. I don’t know whether I make my point clear. A doctor who lives in a hospital has an entirely different idea of what a hospital ought to be from the architect’s idea, who comes at it from the outside, and who wants to have the building of a certain architectural style of architecture. Q. It is on the plan of a modern hospital. I notice that the cor¬ ridors are a good deal like those of Johns Hopkins. I was intimate with them for years? A. Those buildings are worked out for the particular spot of ground they occupy a little bit regardless of other institutions. That Talley building, for instance, is suitable for the class of patients in it in Columbia. S. C. The trouble about this great mass of brick, that is the center building, and these wings, is that this building was planned for Trenton, New Jersey, and the officers and this Board of Regents, through Dr. Kirkbride, who was a great asylum builder, furnished the plans for the asylum, and he had just finished the plans for the Trenton, N. J., asylum, and instead of saying, here is a town six hundred miles further south than Trenton, and wants something different, he gave them a dupli¬ cate here of the Trenton, N. J., hospital for the hospital here in South Carolina. Take these windows set in the hospital ward. A lot of them have been changed. It has been done very gradually. The sash is cast iron and stationary, so that all down through these decades in the hot summer these patients in this hospital have boiled for that reason. These buildings, as I said, are worked out for the spot of ground here in the City of Columbia, S. C., and they are arranged regardless of other places. The gratings on them are jail- 397 like, and an aesthetic asylum doctor would shrug his shoulders and say it was all wrong, and maybe it is, but I have a white woman’s ward equipped for this asylum. I have gone into the sandhills and hunted for escaped patients, and it is better to have the feelings wounded by the jaillike gratings than to tramp out in the sandhills chasing a patient who has made his escape because the gratings are defective. So, I am responsible for the jail-like condition, but it is an outgrowth of an unhappy experience on my part. Mr. Carey—How many are these new buildings designed to accommodate, the Taylor building, for instance? A. If it was com¬ pleted—it is only the center part and one wing—but it will accom¬ modate something like 125 or 140 patients. Q. How much did it cost to build it? A. As far as it is now, I think between twenty and twenty-five thousand dollars. Q. What is the accommodation of the Talley building? A. It has 88; it is completed. Q. It has its capacity? A. Yes, sir; we can crowd in a hundred, and in time we will probably have to do it. The Chairman—How many can the other buildings accommodate now as they stand, Taylor building? A. I would rather find out just how many are in there today. Q. How many is it designed to accommodate? A. When it is built? Q. I mean now. It can comfortably accommodate how many at this time? A. About sixty—between sixty and seventy. Mr. Carey—As far as white women are concerned, you have ample accommodations, so far as space is concerned, is that correct? A. As far as space is concerned, the white women’s department is in fairly good condition, but you must always keep in mind, in making comparisons, that they average more white females than males and others. Q. They come in more rapidly? A. Yes, sir; and they have resistance. Q. They live longer? A. Yes, sir; they have greater resistance. They don’t have the apoplexy and the paralysis and those other forms of insanity to which men are subject. Mr. Bunch—I think Dr. Babcock overlooked the Dix Cottage, and in connection with that the spur track of railroad. Mr. Carey—What about that? A. This is what is called the annex. It is a two-story annex put up to relieve the pressure as much 398 as possible. They authorized me to take Page Ellington and put two more stories there. Q. What about the Dix Cottage? A. When the Dix Cottage was opened it was a blessing to us. It was the old Wallace home, which was remodeled for the purpose of receiving white women. Q. Women? A. White women. If you will allow me to say so, the Wallace property cost the State of South Carolina four thousand dollars a year for six years, and the Dix Cottage has paid that in a manifold degree. We average about thirty white women. We try to keep the usual convalescent class over there, and for twelve years or thirteen years that building has been a blessing to the white women who have come here from time to time. Q. Have you kept the Legislature advised as to your needs out here in your reports? Have you been asking for these things? A. There the reports are. I would like to say that I am not robust, and I do not consider that it comes within the line of my duty to go down to the State House and pull the honorable members of the General Assembly out of their seats to listen to the needs of the asylum, but when they come into the front gate, then they are our legitimate prey, and we can talk to them, and we do. Q. The Committee is your legitimate prey? A. If they don’t come here. They don’t ask me. Q. Why don’t you go to them? A. I don’t consider that my business. Q. You appear before the Committee on the Insane Asylum, do you not? A. Yes, sir, whenever they have asked me. Q. Before the Ways and Means? A. When they ask me. They did not ask me last year. Q. You did not go before the Ways and Means? A. They did not ask me. Q. In your reports, do you ask for things, in your annual reports? A. I am not much of a man to write. The Board of Regents looks after those things as best they can, and I do the best I can. Q. The point I want to get at is this: If you wanted anything, why did you not ask for it ? A. They gave me an opportunity to say just what I wanted to say. When I came here the previous ad¬ ministration had been assailed on the ground of extravagance. Dr. Griffin was severely criticized because he hired an accomplished cook to come here and take charge of the kitchen, and paid him fifty dollars a month. I thought that was one of the accusations against Dr. Griffin. At least, I was told so by a prominent official in South 399 Carolina. So that my administration started with the idea that the money that was supplied for this institution must be made to go just as far as possible, and the Board of Regents have been handi¬ capped with that same tradition, that we must get down to bedrock and manage to scuffle along, and Mr. Bunch and I must go to this government sale and that auction sale, and stand around until we could pick up bargains and make this money go as far as possible. So, that is the spirit under which we had to labor. I am speaking for myself and how I had to labor. This money that is sent to the asylum comes from the people, from so many taxpayers, and it is by the special providence of God that you get a penny, and when you get it, get down on your knees and thank God, and make it go as far as possible; but, above all things, don’t go to the Legislature and say you haven’t got a plenty of it. Q. That has been the policy? A. That has been the policy under which I have had to administer. Q. Do you think that is a good policy? A. No, sir; not how cheaply, but how well. Q. Why don’t you go? A. Mr. Carey, I go and tell them. I say we have to live under a more or less sort of poverty. If there is any member here that has been on the Ways and Means Committee he has heard my story. Q. Individually you appeared before the committee? A. Yes, sir; the Ways and Means Committee. Q. Before the Finance Committee of the Senate? A. Yes, sir. 0 . What ought the appropriation to be ? A. I think one hundred and fifty to one hundred and sixty dollars is just as low as an honor¬ able State ought to try to administer to the wants of its insane. Q. A hundred and fifty dollars per capita? A. Yes, sir; that is the least. Q. How much are you getting now? A. As near as I can get at it, one hundred and nine dollars, sir. Q. Is that outside of the farm or do you know about that? A. That is outside of the farm. My hundred and fifty dollars is outside of the farm also. Mr. Bunch—All the running expenses of the farm comes out of the maintenance? A. Yes, sir. Q. I want to ask you a few questions about yourself. What de¬ partment do you give your personal attention to? A. With the growth of this population—as long as we kept down under a thous¬ and patients—I did the best I could to cover all the ground and 400 keep the run of them. But when w'e began to climb up, and tine population increased, then, with the consent of the Board of Regents, I took the old building which had some sixty or seventy white women in it and the negro women. Q. About what time did you take charge of them? A. I would say five or six years ago. Q. You are still in charge of them ? A. I am, although the Board of Regents are taking steps to relieve me of it. Q. Do you have any white women under your charge now? A. Yes, the Dicks Cottage. Q. How many in there? A. Twenty-seven in there today. Q. The new building, have you any in there? A. I propose to take the new building, at least if there is no other assistant phy¬ sician appointed. Q. That is where you have got eighty-eight ? A. No. That is the Talley building. This building has twenty-eight now, but it will eventually have a hundred patients. Q. How many colored women do you give attention to now, doctor? A. We run on an average of about 330 or 320. Q. Have you any assistant in that building? A. No medical assistant; I have a most efficient white woman as supervisor. Q. Who is she? A. Mrs. Quarles. Q. How much of your time does it take? A. I go over and make my regular morning rounds, and then I make my evening rounds. Q. You go over it twice? A. Yes, sir. Q. You go through that building every day? A. Yes, sir. Q. What state is it in? A. The colored women? Q. Are they in fairly good condition or are they crowded now? A. Crowded; we have got sixty or seventy in cellars. Q. Cellars? A. Yes, sir, patients; and until a year ago, just a year ago, there was a ward of white women still kept over there all squeezed in, and a ward of negro women. There were white women over there until the first of last May. Q. You haven’t them there now ? A. The Regents did it a year ago, but then we were not in position to do that before that. Q. The colored women’s accommodations are not ample? A. It is not fair that any single person should be put in a cellar, and that is the trouble about these building I have put up. Now, with the low cellar with these other buildings, we have to give as much attention to the cellar as to the other stories, and the result is that when 401 the crowd becomes overwhelming, then we are compelled to crowd these poor creatures into the cellars. Q. What is the condition as to cleanliness? A. Of the old building? Q. Yes? A. Well, Mr. Carey, there the housekeeping is done, as I say, under the supervision of an unusually intelligent woman, and in so far as she is able, she keeps that building in good order. Q. Is there any complaint about vermin and things of that kind over there? A. Vermin occur, but when they do occur the wards are overhauled and the attack is made and it usually results in the defeat of the enemy. Q. Where do they get their food from ? A. The kitchen over there. Q. Kitchen over there? A. Yes, sir. Q. The same class of food as the others? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who have you in charge of that? A. The housekeeper is Mrs. Dunn. Q. A white woman? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is she at the head of the cooking department? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is the cooking ample over there? A. The range that is over there was put in in Dr. Ensor’s time, but it was so well made, and so honestly made by some Philadelphia Quakers that it is better than some of the newer ranges. Q. They don’t use the steam cooking over there? A No, sir. Q. What is your judgment of that ? A. Well, I think it depends altogether on the distance that you pipe your steam. I think we could do fairly good steam-cooking if we had the boiler nearer. We have to pipe it several hundred feet. Q. In cooking with the steam you think that is the main trouble? A. I think it is not so much the steam cooking but the fact that the steam is brought through unsatisfactorily, as we have to pipe it several hundred feet. Q. You think it is more in that than in the cooking itself, do you? A. I think that you will find that in many hotels steam cook¬ ing is done, and done admirably. Q. What is your custom about visiting other departments ? Some complaint has been made about that? A. Dr. Saunders is the youngest member of the staff, and after taking care of my own patients, I have devoted my time and attention to the woman’s department, and done all I could to help her. Q. When you are called upon in the men’s department for assist- 26 —a. 402 ance or counsel, what is the result then? A. I give it to the best of my ability. Q. Are you often- called upon by Dr. Griffin and Dr. Thomp¬ son, doctor? A. I have not been, but when I am, I respond as well as I am able. Q. Haven’t you got about three times as much work as you ought to have? A. The burden I have taken upon me I have carried as uncomplainingly as a man can. I have no complaint. Mr. Sawyer—Dr. Thompson said that he did not feel that you were in touch with him over there in that department? A. I am very sorry that Dr. Thompson has had that feeling; I have never had that feeling towards him. I had thought that the doctor and I had gotten along here very harmoniously; possibly a little fric¬ tion the first year or two, but I accounted myself as one of the doctor’s good friends, and I certainly felt he was one of mine. When the troubles came upon me he stood by me and helped me to bear them. At any time when he has had trouble I did the best I could. The fact that we were not in touch is a revelation to me. Q. He also stated that there was a feeling among the patients on the white ward that you were hard to reach ? A. I did not know it. Q. Did you ever hear anything of that? A. If that is so I did not know it. Q. Did Dr. Thompson ever tell you that such a thing as that existed? A. I don’t think so; I have no recollection of his ever telling me. The Chairman—As I understand your duties, as you outline them, it would be practically impossible for you to give to the men’s departments the time that you give to the woman’s departments, and at the same time look after the general work of the institution, would it not? A. There is a limit to a man’s endurance and capability. I do not think I could cover the ground. Q. It is absolutely impossible? A. As long as you put it in that way, please let me state an example. About the last of November, 1906, Dr. Allen, who had been the woman physician here for a dozen years, had to go home by reason of sickness in her family. That put all the women, some nine hundred, on me, and for the following six months I had to take care of those nine hundred women. I made my rounds twice a day from the first of November until the first of May. Fortunately for the institution. Dr. Saunders was appointed by the Regents as assistant physician in Dr. Allen’s place, and she came on duty the first of May. I did not realize how heavy a burden it would be to try to take care of nine hundred patients for six months day in and day out, week in and week out, until then. Then, after Dr. Saunders came here I broke down and had an attack of fever, so that I say that there is a limit to a man’s, at least, there is a limit to my powers of endurance, and I think it would be unsafe to the patients or anybody else for me to try to cover the ground and take care of everything and the patients too. Q. Don’t you think the management would take up his whole time if he did it properly? A. If he had nothing to do other than administrative work he would have more than he could keep up with. Q. Do you know of an institution where the Superintendent is expected to do more than that? A. No, sir, I do not. Q. In addition to the duties of Superintendent, you are doing the work of the head of one of the other chief divisions on the medical side, and assisting in some of the other departments? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Carey—How many more physicians do you think ought to be here? A. Well. I think for the present if we had another assistant physician we could get along for the present? Q. One more? A. Yes, sir. Q. And have the Regents power? A. They have authorized an appointing committee to select such a physician. The Chairman—I may have misunderstood the drift of Dr. Thompson’s evidence, but it struck me that he was not charging or saying that there was a lack of desire on the part of Dr. Babcock to co-operate, or that he was out of personal touch, or that there was unfriendly or personal feelings, but that there was not that close supervision by the Superintendent over his department that he would wish, that he would like to have. Don’t you think, in view of the situation as you have outlined it, that you have not been able to give the supervision to that department that you would like to give it? A. That is absolutely true. I have just as far as my strength has permitted, I have given of it to Dr. Saunders as the youngest and least experienced member of the staff. While Dr. Saunders is absolutely efficient and entirely an accomplished all around official, asylum official, yet I have felt that in addition to my other duties as far as my strength permitted I would help her keep up her side. Mr. Sawyer—Would it be possible for you to go into the business of killing bugs and lice, and go in to see the patients being bathed? A. It would be possible. Q. Could you do it and attend to your other duties? A. I don’t 404 see how I can, but if the bugs have got possession of this place to the extent that they have described here, I have not the slightest objection to taking off my coat and going in and wiping them out. I think I can do that all right. Q. Do you believe they have possession as some people still think ? A. I think, at least I hope, that the conditions have been exag¬ gerated. Q. As to that part of it? A. Yes, sir, but if the bugs are there to that extent, and nobody else has yet had the inspiration to become a modern St. George and tackle the dragon, if the Board of Regents will relieve me from my other duties, I will be a St. George and tackle the bugs. The Chairman—My idea that I gather from your remarks is that if you could be placed in position, to carry out your figure of speech, in the way you would like, you would be general in command of these divisions, and give your orders whenever necessary, instead of being held down to do work that you ought to have subordinates under you to do, referring now to the physicians you say it is neces¬ sary to be provided with here? A. Excuse me, the reason there is no other assistant physician is not the fault of the Board of Regents. It is no fault of the Board of Regents. It is the out¬ growth of the ideas of economy that have been forced upon us. Mr. Carey—Don’t you think you have carried that a little too far—economy? A. I think, in the light of this investigation, which I have most earnestly courted, and I believe all the members of the Commission will give me credit for putting absolutely no ob¬ stacle in the way of bringing out the matter that has been brought out—I think not only the Board of Regents, but the Superintendent and the General Assembly also, will acknowledge the fact that the most honorable charity in their midst has not received the attention it deserves. 0 . For want of funds? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Sawyer—I did not hear all of Dr. Thompson’s testimony, but a different impression was made upon my mind than that which was made on the Chairman’s mind. I did not gather from his testimony that there was any unfriendly personal feeling? A. There could not have been. Q. I understood from his testimony—I just understood that he felt, and he did testify to that, and so did Mr. Mitchell, that they would make complaints and reports to you about nurses and attend¬ ants, and you would just say, “yes,” and they would hear no more 4©5 of it, and his attention was called to that fact and he went on, so that he did not mean to criticize you—you have testified that you did give more attention in your capacity as Superintendent to Dr. Saunders’s department than you did to his. Why did you do that? A. I thought I made that clear that Dr. Saunders was, although competent and efficient in every way, she was a woman and the youngest in the service, and, therefore, as Dr. Thompson had more experience as an asylum physician, a longer experience than I had, I felt that he was able to handle his department with less assistance from me than a later physician. Mr. Hardin—And you as a gentleman will give the ladies the preference? A. Mr. Hardin, I honestly admit that I have paid more attention to the white women here than I have to any other depart¬ ment, but at the same time I do not mean to apologize for it. With two hundred more women than white men, I think they were en¬ titled to the best we had, and if there has been any mistake made in giving them the preference, I have made it, and I am responsible for it. Mr. Dick—You spend practically two hundred thousand dollars? A. Yes, sir. Q. What per cent, of the patients are employed in work? A. I should say on an average of forty to fifty; I will say forty-five. Q. Forty-five? A. Yes, sir. Q. It is customary in all other hospitals of this kind that the families of the Superintendent and the subordinates are provided with the products of the farm; do they allow you that here? A. No resident officer gets anything from the institution without paying for it. It is charged to him, and then when the bill is rendered five per cent, is added to that for handling. We get nothing. If a man gets a bunch of radishes, a pint of milk, or anything like that, he has to pay for it. There is absolutely nothing of that kind. Q. You allow no use of cattle or anything of that kind in here? A. No, sir, the resident officers have their own cows. They are allowed the privilege of grazing them about the grounds, but they are not fed by the institution. There are some little sheds built for housing them. Q. On what basis do you make your estimate with regard to maintenance? A. The experience of the previous year. Q. Has the Legislature ever failed or refused to give for that particular branch—maintenance? A. If I had the time there is nothing that would give me more pleasure than to go to the State 406 House and dig out of the reports the history of the relation of the General Assembly to the institution. According to the means I think they have done well. Q. I mean for maintenance? A. They have not denied it. They might previously have cut down some request for maintenance, but I do not recollect it. Q. I just want that fact brought out. I am on the Ways and Means Committee? A. This last winter is the first time since I have been here that the Ways and Means Committee never sent for me. Why, I do not know. Q. You asked for a hundred and seventy thousand dollars a year ago, and ten thousand more last year? A. Ten thousand more? Q. And got it? A. Yes, sir. Q. For maintenance? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you asked for more medical aid from the Board of Regents? A. That matter has been discussed, and the only reason it has not been carried out is from lack of means to do it with. Q. Is that included in the estimate for support? A. I don’t think they have ever added the cost of any other physician, sir. I don’t recollect. Q. After you made a request and they put in their estimate for support, that you did not get it? A. I don’t think I understand the question. Q. After you made the request of the Board of Regents for med¬ ical aid, they did not put that amount in before the Legislature, and make that request? A. I have never made a specific request of the Board for more medical aid and they never gave it. The last was when Dr. Griffin came here five years ago. I don’t know that they added in Dr. Griffin’s salary at that time, and that particular time. Perhaps they did, because Dr. Griffin came the first of January. My recollection is that he came the first day of January, 1905, and the presumption is that they added this salary, but I do not know. Q. Have you ever asked for more clerical aid? A. We have added somewhat to our clerical aid the last three or four months. Q. You have got all the aid along that line that you want, have you? A. No, sir, I think we want more clerical aid all around, sir. Q. How many white male patients in the asylum? A. We are running up to about 354. Q. Female white patients? A. Five hundred and twenty. Q. Colored women? A. Three hundred and twenty-nine. Q. Do you know how many patients in the whole institution are 407 in mechanical restraint today? A. I can tell more definitely as to the colored women. I think we have got more in restraint than we usually have. Women are rather violent. We usually have forty or fifty; now fifty-seven. Q. Do you know how many in the female department, in the white female department? A. Since we have been able to get out of doors the restraint has been running higher. It is better to put them in a straight-jacket and let them go out of doors into the yard than it is. to restrain them in the house. So, the restraint is from forty to fifty, I should say. Q. Do you think if you had more of the modern methods given to you by the State and more attendants that there would be less restraint used, less mechanical restraint? A. I have worked long enough in an asylum to. have some convictions about restraint. I think that restraint is often a good therapeutic measure. By that I mean to say that I have patients who are restrained just as a sur¬ gical case is restrained in a hospital. Mechanical restraint is a legitimate means of treatment. Q. I do not mean to question that? A. I understand. I say I am old fogy enough not to want to advertise myself as a non¬ restraint asylum doctor. I believe that restraint is abused oftentimes, but I have not a bit of sympathy with the doctor who goes and gathers up all the means of restraint, and goes out in front of the asylum and makes a bonfire, and gets an immense amount of praise because he was foolish. I have visited asylums in which it was advertised that restraint was not used and seen a camesole in use. Q. Have you an operating room here? A. We have fixed up a room for the purpose of operation, but with the demand we have had for bed rooms, the several rooms which have been prepared as operating rooms have been really used as dormitories. Q. Do you find yourself handicapped with a population of this kind to work without an operating room properly fitted up? A. It seems to me that when an asylum reaches this population there should be entirely a separate building for an operating room. We should have a room that has no communication with the wards. Q. A separate infirmary with an operating room? A. Yes, sir. Q. Give us your opinion as to the separation of the institution as to the races? A. Well, of course, we have the example of Virginia in that matter. Q. We want to get at that from an official? A. We have the examples of Virginia and North Carolina before us with their 408 asylums for negroes on the seaboard, the Atlantic seaboard—in Virginia at Petersburg and in North Carolina at Greensboro. The negro population of those two States is somewhat different in geo¬ graphic distribution from ours. There are comparatively few ne¬ groes in the Piedmont section and the majority of the negroes are on the coast. In South Carolina and Georgia the geography of the States is different from North Carolina and Virginia, and it seems to me that the policies of the States is much more alike, that is, the policy of South Carolina and Georgia to maintain a centrally located place, a large colony for the insane—there are certain draw¬ backs to having negroes in the same institution. For instance, if we did not have negroes Here, we would get very much more work out of the white men, and work is a means of leading to restoration to health. There is nothing like it, but with white men the work is unpopular because we hire the negro man to do the hauling out of the slops, the shoveling of coal, and things like that, so the white male patients are handicapped in not having manual exercise which goes so far towards promoting bodily health. To me that is a very strong argument in South Carolina for the separation of the races outside of any other consideration. Mr. Bunch—What is your experience with regard to the manage¬ ment of negroes and white people? Do you think that the negroes are easier to manage than white people on account of their previous training? A. I think when a negro is insane that he becomes more dependent upon the white man, upon the white race, and while the white men in this institution may have suffered from the presence of the negro, I think the negro has been benefited by the presence of the white man. That is what I think; it is very much better for the negro to be near the white man than it is for the white man to be near the negro. Your question as to the separation itself is such a far reaching question. The report of these gentlemen here—r- Major Gooding came on the Board in 1883, and Capt. Jones in 1886. I think perhaps those two gentlemen served on the com¬ mittee of investigation that went to Aiken, Florence and Lexington and hunted up localities that might be suitable for an asylum for negroes. I think you will find the record of it, and these gentle¬ men will tell you when they studied that problem. It was long before I came here, and they can tell you why they reached the con¬ clusion they did. Q. Do they give you a private secretary? A. No, sir. 409 Q. It is customary at other institutions for the superintendent to have one? A. Yes, sir, when they can afford it. Q. It is essential that you should have one? A. Yes, sir, I think so. Q. Have you any system of getting a report from the super¬ visors and different physicians each day? A. As far as I can. I am in touch with them all. The systematic written reports I have not gotten lately. The mechanical department and all that sort of thing I get their reports regularly. Q. Under the present conditions, you could not overlook them if you got them? A. I think so. People think I am much nearer a physical wreck from my work than I am. I think it is not phy¬ sically impossible. Dr. Dick, the Chairman, has said that the Board of Regents and the Superintendent may put in a written list, and Mr. Bunch a written list of suggestions. I should like very much to take up that question, that big question—one of the biggest that the Board of Regents and your Commission will have to handle; that is, the separation of the negroes and the white people, but for me to sit and give off-hand the pros and cons of that ques¬ tion, I do not think I could do that justice. I don’t want you gen¬ tlemen to think I am evading the question. Mr. Harrison — In reference to the hydrotherapeutic treatment, the water treatment, you made some attempt to put that in? A. We have made preparations looking towards that end, Mr. Harrison. Q. It is in the Talley building? A. In the Talley building, the Parker building and the Taylor building. We have put them all there, and if there is anybody to blame why they have not been put in, I think the blame is mine, for the reason that I have studied hydrotherapy in asylums, and I think it is an agency for good, but to do that right here today, and to do it properly, to do it as it should be done, it would require four well-trained bathers and masseurs, and each one of them should have a competent assistant. Q. Bathers and masseurs? A. That would take four for our four departments. That would make eight individuals. To get those people we would have to pay them a good deal more than we pay our supervisors. What is going to be the effect of that? Here is a person who is limited to a certain line of duty, and here are these other people who have been toiling here and giving their life¬ blood to the work, and who are now getting small wages. You gentlemen get tired listening to it, and I surely get tired saying 4io that the reason that these things have not been pushed and carried out is what I shall have to call the unmentionable sin. Q. I will get you to tell the Commission the effect of that in reducing restraint. You could use less restraint if you had that, or could you? A. We could use less, but not so very much less. Let me illustrate what I understand by restraint. I visited a very fa¬ mous asylum in New York State some years ago. The doctor had announced that under no circumstances would he have restraint used in the institution. A man had an attack of violent epileptic mania, and the good doctor had four attendants two hours at a time holding this man, one nurse on each arm and leg. Here was a man in violent excitement with an individual hanging on each ex¬ tremity. When I reached that asylum that had been going on for three days, and the whole male insane force and the doctors were exhausted. Now, in my humble opinion if this accomplished phy¬ sician had simply sent in this case for a restraining sheet or for this case a camesole, he would not only have done himself and his institution, his insane force a great favor, but above all things he would have conferred a blessing upon that poor epileptic, because I am bound to think that in that length of time the men’s violent jerking, some of it must have been due to the irritation of manual restraint. I admit that we use a great deal of restraint, but I am not theorist enough to say through this Commission to the people of South Carolina that no person should ever under any circumstances be restrained. But, to come back to your question, I think there are certain cases, I think that there are very many cases of epileptic mania that would have been soothed by putting them in a bath. Q. Have they to be restrained in that? A. Yes, sir. Q. I was going to follow that question with one as to recovery. Is it or is it not a means of recovery, this hydrotherapic treatment? A. I think it is. Properly used hydrotherapy is helpful, but it requires skill, people who are professionals. For instance, I do not think I should be competent to administer hydrotherapy, although I understand it all theoretically, but to have competent men and com¬ petent women to administer that treatment here would be a great blessing to the institution, and I think, perhaps off-hand may be, $3,000 to $4,000 to equip and maintain them in those several depart¬ ments, I think it would be money well invested. Q. That is what I am after? A. That is my opinion. The Chairman—Did you say $3,000 or $4,000 to instal? A. To get these eight people. Q. Three thousand a year afterwards? A. Yes, sir. That is just off-hand. Mr. Harrison—I wanted to ask you about tuberculosis. Unless I am mistaken this institution is the first place where the separa¬ tion of the tubercular from the non-tubercular patients was in¬ augurated in the United States, is that correct? A. Yes, the studies that were made here by physicians begun here in the early forties led to the preparation of a report read in 1894 to the asylum superintendents about tuberculosis, and on the basis of that report which met with a good deal of opposition at first, on the basis of that report the modern plan—at least that re¬ port gets the credit of being the starting point in asylums for the insane in the fight against tuberculosis in America, and it ante-dated the English crusade four or five years. We have tried to separate them, but that problem is very much like the land problem and the building problem. You see the asylum did not have but forty acres of land. They had only forty acres of land in 1876 when General Hampton’s government came in, and the Board of Regents have simply for years been trying to lay the foundation for a hospital. They picked up in 1878 a little piece of land, and in 1883 a little piece, in 1896 a little, in 1902 a little, and in 1903 and 1905, so that we have had to expend our energies in trying to lay the foundation. In trying to build so as to receive all these classes which we are called upon to receive here, we have not been able as Dr. - said back in the fifties, we have not been able to keep up with the progress of the times. The energies of my officers have been ex¬ pended in trying to lav the foundation upon which future genera¬ tions might build. Our work has been like a man that plants a tree. He plants the tree that future generations may enjoy the shade of it, and we have been trying to do the best we can to lay the foundation, and with the means that have been permitted the foundations have been laid. Q. In case this idea that was brought up the other day was car¬ ried out to some extent—those questions that were asked Mr. Bunch relative to getting a site say of fifteen hundred acres of land, would not it be possible very cheaply, very economically, to build tuberculosis tents, wooden or other tents? A. The Board of Re¬ gents have grappled with the problem, and appointed the medical members to look into it. Dr. Ray was on the committee to see whether a modern cottage could be made to colonize the tuberculosis patients. The first problem was that of lighting that building. To 412 warm it and light it would cost a thousand dollars. Of course, that fund was not available for the purposes of that building. The Board of Regents ordered me yesterday to start colonies wherever I could establish them. To come back to your fifteen hundred acre prop¬ osition, and the tuberculosis colonies. The Board of Regents and myself have been hammering away at that proposition for years. The Regents have looked into it. It is not a question so much as to the policy of getting this tract of fifteen hundred acres or more. It is a question of agreement as to where that tract should be. Q. That was not within the scope of my question. The question I am asking is with reference to future development, and not what the action of the board has been or anything of that sort. I want your ideas as to whether it can be done, what are they? A. My idea is that the future policy of the State, and by that I mean the very early future, I would say the present policy of the State, should look towards securing a tract of land not remote from Columbia upon which these various classes, if you like, start it with the colored insane, but I think you could secure that land, and then spend many thousand dollars, I am not prepared to say how many, but not less than a hundred thousand dollars, in making a psycopathic hospital. Develop this plant here in Columbia as a hospital in which you receive acute mental cases. Then have in the country an asylum. Here is your hospital and there is your asylum so many miles out. Let that asylum be far enough out for you to develop all your colonies, tuberculosis colonies or epileptic colonies, if you like. Have a portion set apart for colored insane, and above all things your chronic colored insane, because the race as all physicians will tell you, as a race is very prone to tuberculosis, and they must be out where they can get sunshine and live out of doors. I don’t be¬ lieve there is a better climate in the world for the treatment of tuberculosis than this South Carolina climate, and this around Columbia. I think in many ways it is ideal. Take general paralysis, and I think these climatic conditions are exceptional for diseases of that nature, better than I have known it to be elsewhere. Q. I want to ask you about a specific instance or two. The first thing I want to ask you is as to this boiler plant? Is not that an economic loss to the institution and to the State? A. That matter of the boilers has been up before the Regents ever since I have been here, and I think, and the Board of Regents—their mechanical committee will tell you that they have wanted for some time to spend twenty-five thousand dollars in puting in a new battery of 413 boilers there. It would be immensely to the advantage of the in¬ stitution, it would really be an economic measure. Don’t you think so? I think so. Q. This ice plant. Mr. Dick—You mean a central heating plant? A. Yes, sir; this is simply for steam and for mechanical purposes. That is what you had reference to. Q. Yes, sir; the idea is to show that by retaining the present antiquated system that we are causing an economic loss to the State ? A. You see one of those boilers out there is in such shape that the boiler insurance company refused to insure it. Q. It is really dangerous to life and property? A. Yes, sir; there are two boilers, I think that were in operation when I came here, and the mechanic at that time condemned them. I think they are still using another boiler I picked up after it had passed through a fire. It is a large boiler, perhaps an eighty horsepower boiler. Mr. Harrison—Furthermore, with regard to the change of this building that we were speaking of this morning; the having of your offices in the front part of the building in a congested condition thus reducing the efficiency of your employees, that is also one of the most serious economic losses that this institution faces? A. I don’t think this ought to go out in the press, but our sessions are being held in a room over the morgue. The dead room is beneath us. Q. From a monetary point of view, that is, a man’s time being worth so much money, etc., would not it pay this institution and pay the State of South Carolina, which owns it, to make those repairs ? A. To do what ? Q. To make that change and make those repairs that I spoke of? A. Unquestionably. Mr. Carey—Your mention of the morgue suggested the question. There has been some criticism about the hospital burying grounds. I wish you would explain that to the commission? A. That grave yard was bought as a part of the cemetery by the Board of Regents many years ago, and was used for the purpose for which it was bought. There was some little competition here among the under¬ takers as to the contract for the burial of the asylum patients, and at one time there was a change made from the old undertaker who had had it for many years. The new man was not as careful, and he did not dig his graves with the care they had always been dug, and on one or two occasions it was reported that he had dug into pre¬ vious graves. The Board of Regents, when they learned of the 4H crowded condition appealed to the penitentiary to give them some land they had back of the cemetery. They gave them a portion of land, and after a trial of a few years the Regents were satisfied that that arrangement was not what they could stand for; so they set aside a piece of land over in the woods back of the veterans infirmary. Q. Was that an accident? A. The matter was just reported to the Board, and the Board had it looked into and they corrected it. Q. They corrected it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did it only happen on one or two occasions? A. That was all I ever heard of. The Board of Regents came to me about the matter, and we looked into it together, and the Board appointed a sub-committee and we handled it with all the care that we would if it had been our own flesh and blood that had been buried in those graves. Q. How long has that been? A. About three years, three or four years. Q. There has been some little intimation on the part of some of the witnesses that you are somewhat opposed to amusements. What about that? A. Mr. Carey, I only deplore the fact that we haven’t got a great many more. Q. I just wanted to give you an opportunity to explain your position. A. That is a misapprehension entirely. Q. You really are in favor of them? A. I am not only in favor of them, but I am very sorry that we haven’t got a great many more. In the good old days when there were two hundred and fifty patients in the institution it was possible to have the patients go driving and to give them all those little pleasures of life, but with this over¬ whelming population, how are we going to have patients go to drive without going up against the question of favoritism? To give those patients proper buggies and carriages, etc., to go driving, it would cost enormously. Q. Do you think amusements aid recovery? A. I would say, if I were asked for the proper treatment for the insane, out of doors life, occupation, amusements, and medicine. I put medicine down last. Amusements come before medicines. Q. Fresh air? A. Exercise, occupation and amusements. Q. Cleanliness? A. All of those things. Q. All ahead of drugs ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What part do drugs play in administering to mental diseases? A. If they are legitimately used they are very helpful. The curse 415 of the insane is insomnia, and you have first to grapple with that before you can do them any good, and they promote sleep. Q. What is your method here of promoting sleep? A. We give these preparations like sulphurnal, trionads, etc. Q. You don’t use chloral? A. We don’t use a great many, but what we do use we try to use intelligently, just as intelligently as we can. Q. How about physical treatment? A. That is done as far as possible, not as thoroughly as we would like or as we would do it if we had more space. For instance, take these negro women. They have a little back yard garden plot to occupy their time in. There is no opportunity for modern treatment. We keep them out of doors. They live out of doors. There are three hundred white women and for them we ought to have a half acre of ground. Q. Have you got many cases of pellagra? A. Yes, sir; about twenty-five. Q. How do you manage that class of patients ? A. Most of them are among the negro women, and it falls to my lot to handle them. Pellagra to me is very much of a mystery, sir. I have given an immense amount of time to the study of it since we recognized it, but we had it here a long, long time before we recognized it. I don’t think we are entitled to very much credit when we finally recogniz¬ ed it. Q. Do you separate them? A. We have a place built there, a sun room built for tuberculosis patients, and they are kept separate. The Italians who have studied the disease for a hundred and thirty years insist that it is not communicable. 0. Is it infectious? A. They say it is not. I am not prepared to answer that question. As I say, I studied quite a bit on that sub¬ ject in the last year and a half, but to me it is a great mystery, and we have got lots to learn about it, and there is a great deal more of it in this country than we realize at this time. Q. Are any white patients afflicted with it? A. One white wo¬ man, an old white woman. Q. How is she getting along? A. Men appear to do better than women, but to me pellagra is a plague. Those poor women, in spite of all that we can do, and whatever our other short-comings may be, I assure you that those poor pellagra patients have had the best attention that could possibly be given them, in spite of all that we can do, they simply waste aw r ay and become mummified. I can not express it in any other way. 416 Q. It does not yield to treatment? A. I think it does yield to' treatment in its early stages, if recognized early. I think the doctors around in Atlanta, Charlotte and Columbia recognize pellagra before it attacks the nerves, etc., and when you recognize it early it is cur¬ able. Q. What do you think is the cause of it ? A. I don't know; the Italians say damaged corn. They insist upon that almost to a man. Men of great acumen who have devoted life-long study to it like Lombroso, one of the great intellects of the world, he says it is corn and he does not tolerate any other suggestion. Mr. Hardin—Is it as fatal as leprosy? A. That is one of the names that it has gone by. You can take the case of Dr. Lavinder —the United States had a public hospital surgeon to arrive here to study this disease in and around here, and he has gone all over South Carolina studying it. Q. If I understand, you are not taking the risk of its being com¬ municated? A. We are not taking the risk. If it is communicat¬ ed, it is slightly communicable, if it is at all, but the authorities, the men that write, but have not proven, say that it is not communi¬ cable, but there are certain mysteries about it that have not yet been solved. Q. You are not taking any risk here? A. We are not taking chances. Q. Do you know how much these Georgia and North Carolina hospitals pay per capita? A. I read somewhere that the per capita at Raleigh was $165.00, at Morganton about ten dollars less. Q. About $150.00? A. $155.00. That is approximate. Q. You do not know positively? A. I think that is approximately correct. Dr. Taylor—I have approached you several times as a member of the Board of Regents to know if it would meet with your approval if the Board of Regents would ask the Legislature to raise your salary of three thousand dollars to what it should be, four or five thousand dollars for a man at the head of this institution, and you have constantly refused to allow it to be done. Is that true or not true? A. Yes, sir; I think I am paid all I am worth. Q. Haven’t I also mentioned the fact that I believed personally that the institution should supply you with food from the farm, supplies, fruit and vegetables, and you refused, saying that you did not think it looked well? A. I think that is proper. I do not like to go into personal matters, but since you bring it up, I think it 4i7 ought to be fully emphasized that no resident officer of this institu¬ tion to the best of my knowledge and belief, and under oath, has a resident officer of this institution in my time, or at any other time under any other administration, has ever gotten any perquisites out of the institution. Q. Any supplies? A. No supplies. Q. You have known or have met the heads of superintendents of most of the Southern institutions? A. Yes, sir. Q. I wrote letters asking the salaries of their superintendents, and whether they got anything from their institutions in the way of their support, and as I recall it, without exception, every man was given supplies, etc., from the dairy and the farm of the institution, and in addition to that considerably more salary with less in the institution, isn’t that so ? A. I don’t think anybody gets any better salary in the South. I don’t know of anyone. I am not posted because I have not paid the slightest attention to it. Mr. Sawyer—Have you ever been offered any other positions since you have been here? A. Yes, sir; I have been offered two positions since I have been here. Q. Did those positions carry any more salary? A. One of them did. Mr. Carey—Similar work? A. General hospital work at Cleve¬ land, Ohio. Dr. Taylor—Just illustrate the problem that you and the board have to deal with here, one of the problems, and one of the most important, the criminals. Could you give an example to show the problems that we deal with here in criminal cases? A. Yes, sir; the Board has been aware for a long time that the asylum was being used as a cloak for crime, and they have warned me against allowing that thing to happen, and I have done the best I could. Do you want a case in point? Q. I want a case in detail, if you will give it for the benefit of the commission'? A. Here is a case in point. I hope that the gen¬ tlemen will be careful and suppress the names. Here is the case of James T. Burrows who was committed here on the ioth of May, 1908. It states that he was in jail on many charges—fraud, etc., in financial matters the physicians’ certificate states? Mr. Bates—When was he committed? A. The ioth of May, 1908. The physicians state there that there was nothing to indicate insan¬ ity; that the patient acted normally, and appeared to be laboring under great mental excitement and great distress. Dr. Boyd has 27—A. 418 been connected with Mr.-in a business way during- the last year. This patient was received here. Application was made to me and I protested against his being received. Application was then made to Judge Cobb and he protested against committing him. Mr. Gibbes, who made the application, insisted that he should be com¬ mitted. Q. What Gibbes? A. Hunter A. Gibbes. Judge Cobb stated that he would only commit him if he would allow him to select the physicians. Dr. Taylor—May I ask what he was charged with, what crime? A. I think forgery, obtaining money under false pretences. I know there were many charges of fraud. Q. He collected money, and claimed to be connected with the in¬ surance company when he was not connected with it, isn’t that it? A. I did not know that. He was brought here in spite of the pro¬ test on the part of myself and Judge Cobb, having finally a certifi¬ cate signed by physicians selected by Mr. Gibbes. He was here for some weeks. Q. Give the names of the physicians? A. Dr. Robert Gibbes and Dr. Boyd. Q. He was a brother of Mr. Hunter A. Gibbes? A. Yes, sir. The Chairman—I would say to the members of the press present I understand the names of the patients and ex-patients are not to be mentioned. Mr. - name, under the view of the committee is the only name that will be left out. The Witness—Since I have expressed an opinion, I would like to add that I am very much in sympathy with the protection of the privacy of these men who have been unfortunate enough to be pa¬ tients in the asylum, and I make a special plea that nothing be done that discloses their identity. The Chairman—I think we interrupted you in the midst of this case? A. Mr. Chairman, as far as I am individually concerned I would very much rather discuss the whole matter of criminals in a general way. Dr. Ray—I think we ought to be able to prove the animus of those people that sent that memorial. As far as Mr. - is concerned we have letters from Mr. - thanking us for the kind treatment. Witness—Let me read this letter. When Mr. Gibbes took Mr. - out, he addressed this letter. He came in on the ioth of May and went out on the 9th of June. He says: (Letter read). Up / 419 to the time of Mr. - release from the asylum there was absolutely no feeling than that of friendliness on the part of Mr. Gibbes towards the asylum, towards this institution. Mr. Hardin—What date was that letter written, doctor? A. The 9th of June. Subsequently, if I may pre-judge Mr. Gibbes’s case— may I, Mr. Chairman ? Am I out of order in this ? The Chairman—Not at all. I understood that you wanted to take that up'? A. Mr. Gibbes, during the time that Mr. - was here, visited his client on the wards and it appears that he got into comunication with other patients. I was absent three days after Mr. Burroughs’ admission. I went on a vacation and this all occurred in my absence, but I understood Mr. Gibbes offered several patients to get them out for $35.00 apiece. When I got back I learned that Drs. Taylor and Thompson had gone to the Attorney General to see if that sort of conduct was not so unprofessional as to disbar Mr. Gibbes, and the Attorney General replied that he saw nothing in the charges that would warrant any such steps. At the same time Mr. Christie Benet, who was acting Solicitor for this Circuit, was making an effort with Mr. James Fowles to have Mr. Hunter Gibbes dis¬ barred, and Mr. Gibbes’s subsequent antagonism to the Board of Regents and the resident officers it appears grew largely out of his being reprimanded by Dr. Thompson for coming here and interfer¬ ing with patients and taking out patients. Most of it happened during my absence. I am only giving you hearsay evidence. The Chairman—Generally, you say, every now and then the in¬ stitution is made use of by those who are not fit to occupy places here ? A. That happens very frequently, so frequently that in one of your earlier sessions that I asked the two legal members of your commission to please look carefully into the laws which would prevent a man accused of crime from coming within the jurisdic¬ tion of the probate judge; that those cases have gone so far that they should be handled in the Circuit Courts, that is, homicide cases and these other crimes. It seems to me that that is a matter which in all common sense, when a man has placed himself outside of the pale of the probate court by committing a crime, it seems to me that the circuit court is the place. Q. And he ought to be kept in jail until his position is established? A. Yes, sir. Q. I think the legal members of the commission will understand from the simple rendition of it by the doctor what is necessary, and although I myself am not one of the legal members, I am profiting 420 very much by the discussion. A. It would relieve this institution very much if these alleged criminal lunatics could be placed in a special department of the penitentiary, which is not crowded, instead of having them come here. Would it be constitutional for that to be done? Mr. Carey—You don't want to be imposed upon? A. He comes here and stays awhile, and escapes, because we have not the means of holding. Mr. Hardin—Will you please state how Mr. - got out? A. He was taken out by his wife, against the advice of Dr. Thomp¬ son. Mr. Sawyer—We have gone on a good deal about what the doc¬ tor has asked the Legislature for. Have you directly asked the Legislature—that was before I got in there—have you asked them directly for more land upon which you could build a cottage or a colony for epileptics and tuberculosis patients? A. Yes, sir; that has been done. Q. By the Board and you? A. Yes, sir. Q. And they turned it down. It seems they are trying to give you everything. Mr. Dick—I spoke of maintenance and support. Mr. Sawyer—I was under the impression that this had been asked for several years ago and had not been granted. I want to ask if you had not taken some steps in that direction? A. There was one good opportunity we had some three years ago. The old King’s Mountain school buildings could have been bought for $16,000.00, and some efforts were made before the General Assembly. Some of the Board of Regents made an effort to secure that property for inebriates and the beginning of an epileptic colony. Q. They failed to do that? A. Yes, sir; they rejected that, and subsequently we made an effort to get what is called the Industrial School out here. The Chairman—That was the tract you drove me out to? A. Yes, sir. Q. At the time you came before the Finance Committee of the Senate and recommended the building of a cottage for inebriates? A. Yes, sir. Q. At that time did the Board of Regents back you up in that? A. There was some disagreement. Q. As to the general policy of buying land away from the in- 4^1 stitution? A. No, I think the policy of buying this particular piece of land. Q. It was a question of whether that was the right site, was it? A. Yes, sir. Dr, Ray—Was there any dissenting report filed? A. I do not know. Q. Was there any notice then that there would be a minority report? A. I don’t know. Q. Was not the Board of Regents a vote of four to one on that? A. I suppose our records will show. Q. Four in favor? A. I think that is the record. Q. But no minority report filed that you remember? A. No, sir. Mr. Dick—Did Dr. Taylor ever ask you to take another physician? A. Did he ever ask me to take another physician? Q. Add one to your staff? A. I think he has discussed that. Q. What do you think it would take to put this establishment in pretty good working order, $5,000.00? A. I could spend $25,000.00, and just make a decent showing. Q. What do you think it would take to put this in a proper con¬ dition to repairs? A. To put this in proper shape would take $150,- 000.00 at least. Q. Was not a resolution passed by the Board of Regents to pre¬ vent Mr. Gibbes from coming here? A. This is hearsay, and I have understood that there was such a vote passed. (The Commission thereupon went into executive session). Columbia, S. C., 20 May, 1909. After an executive session, the Commission decided to proceed regularly with the testimony shortly after ten o’clock a. m. this day. Present: The members of the Commission. The Chairman presiding. Dr. H. H. Griffin, being duly sworn, testified as follows: Mr. Carey—You are in charge of the colored male department, I believe? A. Yes, sir. 0 . You are a son of the Dr. Griffin who was a former super¬ intendent here? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your age? A. Thirty-three. Q. How long have you been in charge? A. Since January, 1905, four years. 422 Q. How many colored men have you under you? A. We have 330 today. That is constantly changing, however. Q. Where did you receive your training for this work? A. Where did I graduate? Q. Yes? A. I graduated from the Medical College of South Carolina in Charleston. Q. When did you graduate? A. In 1902. Q. Did you ever take any other course in addition to that? A. After my graduation I received an appointment as interne at the City Hospital in Charleston. I was there a year and a half, and I went to New York, and I was connected with Bellevue Hospital as an interne there. Q. Did you ever study pharmacy? A. Yes, sir; I graduated in pharmacy before I ever studied medicine. O. Where? A. At Vanderbilt University. Q. You were elected by the Board of Regents here? A. Yes, sir. Q. What salary do you get? A. One hundred dollars a month. Q. Do you have any medical assistant under you? A. No, sir. Q. You have nurses? A. I have a supervisor and nurses. Q. Colored? A. The supervisor is a white man. Q. Who is your supervisor? A. Mr. Austin. Q. Your nurses are colored? A. Yes, sir; the nurses are all colored. Q. How many nurses have you? A. We have nine nurses on the wards, and then we have two- men for the yard. Q. Eleven in all? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that sufficient to handle a crowd of men like that, doctor? A. I don’t think so. Q. How many do you need? A. I think we ought to have two or three times that number. Q. How much do the nurses get? A. The nurses are paid $17.50, except the hospital nurses, who get $21.50, I think it is. Q. Who employs them? A. Dr. Babcock. Q. Are those you have got capable? A. Some of them are. Q. Do you have much difficulty in getting them? A. A great deal. Q. What is the trouble? A. Because they are not paid enough. They are paid only $17.50. and they can go on the streets of the city and shovel dirt for a dollar a day. Q. Do you have much trouble in keeping them after you get them? A. No, I think not. 423 Q. They stick pretty well? A. Stick pretty well. We have to discharge a good many of them, though. Q. For what cause generally? A. Sometimes for inefficiency, general inefficiency. Sometimes we have had a few cases of mal¬ treatment of patients, too. Q. Have you had many cases of that? A. Not many. Q. When those cases did occur, did you look into them, doctor? A. Always, at once, and the matter was reported to Dr. Babcock. Q. Who looked into them? A. I generally investigated the mat¬ ter and reported it to Dr. Babcock and he invariably discharged them. Q. Did you make a recommendation when you reported? A. Yes, sir, I gave him all the particulars. Q. Did you ever make a recommendation that he did not grant? A. No, sir; he always acted promptly. Q. Is he in harmony here with the other members of the in¬ stitution? A. Perfectly, yes, sir. I have never approached him on a matter that he did not give perfect satisfaction. Q. No friction between you and him? A. No, sir, absolutely none. Q. What is the condition of your wards over there as to clean¬ liness? A. I think it is fairly good considering the fact that we have on some wards two nurses to 111 patients. Q. Two nurses? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you many filthy patients in there? A. A great many. Q. How about the vermin in that building? A. We have them but we are waging war on them all the time. They are being con¬ stantly brought in there as new patients come in. I never saw one come in here from the Charleston Hospital without them. Q. They bring lice? A. By the million. Q. Bedbugs ? A. O, yes, sir. Our practice when a patient comes in from Charleston is to strip off his clothes and burn them. That seems to be the only remedy. Q. When they come from other places they don’t have them so much ? A. I think they have more of them there than anywhere else, but the majority of these patients come from jails there, and I don’t think they are very careful about them there. Q. What efforts do you make systematically to get rid of them? A. Whenever we see any evidence of them, we get to work and use a mixture of carbolic acid and turpentine. That is usually effectual. 424 Q. It is pretty difficult to get rid of them? A. It is because of the fact that the walls are rough. If we had smooth plastered walls I think our efforts would be more effective. Q. The walls are not plastered? A. No, sir; brick walls. They were originally painted, but it has now worn off. Q. How long since it has been painted? A. I don’t think they have been painted since the construction of the building in 1897. Q. They could be plastered now, could they not? A. I think so, sir. There are so many cracks and crevices that harbor them that it is sometimes impossible to get them all. Now, we always in the event that a patient dies or is very sick, and is removed from one ward to another, we have that room fumigated with sulphur and washed down with sulphur or some similar solution. In that way we reach a great many that we would not otherwise reach here. Q. Have you iron or wooden bedsteads ? A. A few iron; most of them wooden. Q. Bugs are harder to manage in wooden bedsteads than in iron? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your judgment as to which is the best bed? A. I think the iron bedstead is the best, decidedly so, and I asked Dr. Babcock in fixing up this room in the basement if he could get iron bedsteads. He said that he would do so. Q. He bought them ? A. I think he said he would. Q. If you had it to furnish today, would you furnish it with wooden bedsteads or iron bedsteads? Which do you think would be most advantageous? A. I think it would probably be better, if you could get rid of those vermin it would be better, and you can get at them better when you have iron bedsteads. Q. Have you sufficient beds for the patients? A. I think so, ex¬ cept as I was just saying, we have just recently opened up a room in the basement that has not been occupied yet. Q. So far as the patients are concerned, then, you are not in an over-crowded condition? A. Very much, sir. Q. You are? A. Yes, sir; we have not a room for forty-five or fifty, and we have had as many as fifty-five in those three rooms, and the beds are literally touching each other. I do not think that is a good state of affairs. Q. What is the accommodation ? How many ought to be housed in there? A. I think we can comfortably put in that building pos¬ sibly about 200. Q. Two hundred ? A. Yes, sir. 425 Q. You have only one building, I believe. A. Just one building. Q. Are your help in there patients; do you have any of the patients to help? A. A good many of them help about the wards. Q. Do they help the nurses? A. Yes, sir; but, of course, we cannot rely on that. Q. Are they forced or do they do it of their own accord, doctor? A. The nurses frequently request them to help about the ward. If they show any unwillingness they are never pressed at all. Q. Do they prefer that? A. I think they do; at least, a great many of them do, sir. Q. Does it help them? A. Yes, sir, it diverts their minds. Q. Where is the cooking done? A. In the main kitchen. Q. That is in another building? A. Y'es, sir; that is in another building. Q. How is the food carried over? A. It is carried over in pans generally, on a little cart. The patients carry it over under the direction of the employees. Q. Do you have a common dining room on the ward ? A. A com¬ mon dining room, except on the second, the hospital ward. The food is brought up there. Q. Who serves the food, the patients or the hired help ? A. There is one hired man in the dining room, and the rest of the help are patients. Q. Do you require them to keep themselves clean? A. Yes, sir; I choose all those patients for the kitchen, the dining room, and the dairy. Q. Yourself? A. I do that myself. I put up notice sometime ago that no patient must be taken out to any of those places without consulting me. Q. What have you got to say about the food served to your de¬ partment? A. I think the food, considering the large number they have to cook for and the large scale it is done upon, I think it is fairly good. I think that in some instances it has not been. I recollect one case last summer, an occasion when the food gave a patient bowel trouble, and they attributed it to improperly cooked turnips. Q. The supplies that are furnished to the kitchen, are they in a fresh condition? A. Furnished to the kitchen? Q. From the farm here? A. Yes, sir; O, yes. Q. The fact that the food is not palatable is due to its preparation? 426 A. Yes, sir; I have passed through the kitchen and seen the vege¬ tables before preparation. Q. Have you had much complaint among your patients or their friends as to what you give them to eat? A. Only one instance, in which the man was from Columbia, a very well-to-do negro. He has a family that sends his meals to him. I don’t know whether it is because of the character of the food. The man I know had an idea that they were trying to poison him, and a great many of these patients have that idea, and he wanted his food brought from the outside, and his daughter comes and brings his meals. Q. Do you allow friends to send them food? A. Yes, sir; that is always inspected, though. If a man is sick, and we think he ought not to have it, it is withheld from him. Q. Who does that? A. The supervisor usually does that. Q. Mr. Austin ? A. Yes, sir. O. Is he a pretty capable man? A. Very. Q. Where did you get him? A. He has been connected with the institution for a long time. Q. With this institution? A. Yes, sir. He was a nurse on the white male wards for a number of years. I think he has been here eight or ten years, or more. Q. Was he under your father? A. I don't think he was. Q. Came after? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any method of training them over there; any system of instruction? A. No, sir. I instruct them generally as to their duties. I tell them what they must and must not do. Q. That is, your nurses? A. Yes, sir. You see, as a rule they are very ignorant. We have some over there that cannot write; but we have some I think that are more intelligent than the usual negro around is. Q. What system of bathing the patients have you? A. The bathing is done on different days, and that is according to the ward. We have four wards, and we have four bathing days; Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday of each week. Mr. Sawyer—On that question of training the nurses. In answer to Mr. Carey’s question, you said you did not have any method of training. You, perhaps, mean not by classes; but you do give them individual training? A. I mean we give them no lectures. Mr. Carey—You, in a conversational way, instruct them as to their duty? A. Yes, sir. 427 0 . Daily? A. Yes, sir; I do that every day when I go through there. I instruct all of the nurses, and inspect all the wards. Q. How often do you make that inspection? A. Every day. Q. In the morning? A. Morning. Q. Do you make a thorough inspection? A. Yes, sir. Q. You inspect the rooms and everything? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who goes with you on the inspection tours you make every day? A. The supervisor. Q. Mr. Austin? A. Yes, sir; and generally one of the nurses on the hospital ward. Q. What salary does Mr. Austin get? A. I think he gets forty or forty-five dollars a month, sir. Q. A month? A. Yes, sir. Q. His duties in your ward are similar to those of Mr. Mitchell under Dr. Thompson; that is, practically? A. The same, yes, sir. Mr. Mitchell does the putting up of the drugs in addition. Q. In your department—how is that drug department arranged? Who has charge of it? A. I have a book for the purpose of writing my prescriptions. I see all the sick and make my prescriptions in this book. Q. Who gives the medicine? A. The medicine is given out by the nurses on the hospital ward. He looks after the giving of the medi¬ cine in there, sir. Q. Are they men who can read? A. Yes, sir. I always choose a man who can read and write, and who has more intelligence than the rest of them. Q. Do you make any effort over there to separate the patients into classes, as far as you can? A. We attempt to separate the violent from the quieter patients. Q. That is what I mean. A. On one ward we have quite a num¬ ber of violent patients, on the hospital ward, and when a patient becomes very much excited and destructive I move them down to that ward. Q. Do you use much restraint? A. It is frequently necessary. Q. What form of restraint do you use? A. We usually confine their hands by means of straps. We use, in some instances, muffs, and in many instances the camesole. I prefer the camesole. Q. You use those on the violent class? A. Yes, sir; but there are a great many of them that can tear the camesole off with their teeth. Q. Comparatively speaking, are the negroes easier to manage than 428 the white insane, in your judgment? A. I would not say that they were easier to manage as a class. It has been my experience with the negro insane is that the phase of insanity they assume is either of excitement or mania. We have very few cases of melancholia among the negroes here. Q. With the whites that is very common? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is more likely to develop a more violent form than the other? A. Yes, sir. A large per cent, of our admissions here are very violent patients. When they are brought in they are so violent that we cannot make satisfactory examinations at the time they come in. 0 . What is your treatment of those violent fellows? What do you do for them? A. Well, when a patient of that character is first admitted we put restraints on them. We restrain the hands and feet and put them in a room to themselves, generally in a strong room. We have some rooms especially prepared for the reception of violent patients. Q. Does that tend to allay the excitement? A. Yes, sir, the restraints do, and they become quiet after a few days in many instances. Q. When you first receive them, do you make an examination into the case? A. Unless they are too violent. Q. If they are, what do you do with them? A. I see them, and even go into their rooms, but I cannot make a special physical exam¬ ination while they are in this excited condition. Q. After they get out of it do you make a complete examination? A. Yes, sir; I usually do so. Q. What percentage of recoveries do you have in your depart¬ ment? A. I suppose possibly fifteen to twenty per cent., maybe. Q. Do you adopt the furlough system in letting them out? A. Yes, sir. 0 . You use the same form? A. Yes, sir, as was testified here yes¬ terday. Q. Dr. Babcock has charge of that part of it? A. Yes, sir; I refer it to him. I make the recommendation, and he generally acts upon it. Q. Do you think it advisable to leave it to the doctor? A. Yes, sir, I think so; I think the Superintendent should know who goes out, and the condition they are in when they go out. Q. When you find that the patient is entitled to an absolute dis¬ charge, do you attach any condition to it? A. No, sir. 429 Q. They go free? A. Yes, sir; only those I am uncertain about are given the furloughs. Q. If they do not return within the time they are furloughed who pays the expenses ? Are they then treated as a new case ? A. It is treated as a new case, and they are regularly admitted. Q. If within the time, who pays the expenses? A. The family pays the expenses for him to go and come back. The institution is put to no expense. Q. But if they return after? A. After ninety days they are regu¬ larly admitted, and examined by two physicians. Q. Just as if they had never been here? A. Yes, sir. Q. I understood you to say that you selected the patients that went to the dairy? A. Yes, sir. Q. How particular are you about them? A. I always look these patients over, and see that they are free from any tuberculosis or syphilitic condition. If I suspect that there is any lung trouble I examine the lungs, and I often have them strip off, and I examine them after they are stripped, and I choose those men that show themselves to be tidy and cleanly. Q. You choose those men that have the best sense? A. The men who have the most amount of sense. Q. Do you recall ever sending any dirty, filthy, incompetent patients to do that work? A. No, I don’t remember. Q. You observed them when they came out and returned from milking? A. I see them occasionally; yes, sir. Q. What condition do you find them in then ? A. They are generally covered with this yellow cotton seed meal, I suppose it is; a good deal of that sticking to their clothes, but those patients, both for the dining room and kitchen and for the dairy, are bathed twice instead of once a week, and their clothes are changed twice a week. Q. Do you see that that is done? A. Yes, sir; I don’t personally see to it. Q. You instruct? A. Yes, sir. Q. That it be done? A. Yes, sir; I ask about it frequently. Q. Who has immediate charge of that, Mr. Austin? A. Yes, sir; I frequently give those instructions to Mr. Austin. Q. Have you ever seen the milking going on? A. No, sir; I have been over to the farm several times in order to see some sick patient over there. Q. Did you ever observe the milk when it comes in? A. Yes, sir; I have seen it being strained. 430 Q. Did you see any signs of filth in it? A. No, sir; I have seen a little sediment in the milk when on the wards. Frequently in giving this force feeding, I very often do that myself, and I have noticed a little sediment in the bottom of the vessels, but I think that happens at most any dairy. Q. Do you give them milk in your department just like they do in the others? A. The patients on the hospital ward get milk, and of course— Q. More than the other patients? A. Yes, sir; and, of course, I prescribe the milk for some others. We could advantageously use more milk than we do, but I think usually the supply is adequate. Q. How about the sick? Do you have any special food or atten¬ tion given to them when they are sick? A. Yes, sir; I prescribe eggs and certain milk, crackers and things of that sort. Q. Do you prescribe yourself? A. I always prescribe eggs—and I always prescribe milk, for that matter—but I always write down eggs, and that is taken down to the kitchen. I suppose it is referred to Mr. Bunch in making up the number of eggs necessary for the day. Q. You have no complaints of cruelty now in your department from any patient? A. No, sir. As I was saying, there have been some instances of it, and I have always reported that to Dr. Bab¬ cock, and he has always acted promptly, and I think if any one of you could have heard his reply to a question I put to him some time ago, you would have no doubt in your minds of his attitude towards cruelty to patients. Q. What is your attitude? A. Of course, I don’t allow it. I speak to them about it almost every day. Q. What do you do for the amusement of those patients? A. I don’t think they have any. Q. Do they have any outdoor exercise? A. Yes, sir; we have a recreation ground, and I make it a point to get them out there when the weather will permit it. Q. How much space have you there? A. Well, I have not much space, but it is large enough. There is a pretty large yard there. Q. Are they allowed to go out, or do you require special hours? A. We have a regular time. They can only go upon the yard when the weather permits. We generally get them out in the mornings shortly after breakfast, and they are out there until a little before dinner, and go again in the afternoon. 43i Q. Are they allowed to play cards or any inside game? A. They play cards. Q. Is there anything for them to read, those that can read? A. We allow some of them to have magazines and books. Q. Do they get those, or do you furnish them? A. I think Mr. Bunch has sent some over there on several occasions, and the rela¬ tives sometimes send them. We don’t approve of their being sent, because they scatter them about so. Q. The clothing furnished through Mr. Bunch, is it sufficient for them? A. Yes, sir. Q. Pretty good quality ? A. Yes, sir; we use those army suits to a great extent. We have other clothes, too. I think the clothing is sufficient. Q. What do you think as to' your crowded condition over there, doctor? A. I think we need more room. I think we have a great many patients in rooms together that should not be in rooms to¬ gether. Q. You need more nurses? A. I think we need two or three times as many nurses as we have. Q. What is your reason for trying to get along with so few nurses? A. I suppose it is lack of funds. Q. Lack of funds? A. Yes, sir. Q. What do you think would be a reasonable per capita for the colored patients per year? Would it be as much as for the white men? A. Yes, sir, I do. I don’t think there is any difference in the treatment in the two' departments. I think it would probably be the same. Q. The present amount you get, do you think that is adequate or inadequate ? A. Inadequate. Q. How much do you think would be adequate? A. I should judge a hundred and fifty-five to a hundred and sixty. Q. A hundred and fifty to sixty? A. Yes, sir. That is about the amount in the average institution. Q. Do you see much of the Board of Regents? A. I have in some instances had them to come over, the executive Regent. Q. Did you take them through? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they make an inspection? A. Yes, sir. Q. How often is that done? A. Well, I don’t think it is done at any fixed time. Q. Do you feel yourself primarily responsible over there for the 432 conduct of that department? A. Yes, sir; I feel that I have charge of the department over there. Q. You feel like you are doing the best you can under existing conditions? A. I feel so. Q. Do you think you are doing it? A. Yes, sir, I hope so. Q. In what character of cases do you call in Dr. Babcock to conference? A. Well. I frequently consult him about some case, sometimes some physical complaint, and sometimes some unusual mental condition. He has always responded. Q. Do you think the executive department of this institution enough for any one man alone, or do you think he could do depart¬ ment work in addition? A. I should think Superintendent. Q. He ought not to have anything except that, and these special conferences? A. No, sir. His time should be devoted to the gen¬ eral management, and not be burdened with any particular depart¬ ment of the institution. Q. In the matter of physicians, do you think another is needed here? A. Yes, sir; I think there would be if Dr. Babcock was re¬ lieved of that department. Q. The negro female department? A. Yes, sir. Q. Would you suggest a male or a female doctor over there? A. I should think a male. Q. You have nothing to do with the colored women? A. No, sir. I get specimens from them for examination, bacteriological examination. 0 . What kind of examination? A. Bacteriological. 0 . How is your death rate? A. Pretty heavy. Q. What do you attribute that to? A. Tuberculosis. O. Have you much of that over there? A. A great deal. Q. Did they come here with it, or develop it after they came here? A. Some come here with it, and a great many develop it after they came. 0 . What efforts do you make to separate them? A. I always*, when a case develops in one of the large rooms, put him into a room by himself, but we cannot do that in every instance. We have not the rooms. Q. Do you ever put them on the veranda? A. Yes, sir. In one instance, I remember, I had a bedridden case that I put on the veranda. He staid there day and night. Q. You have no separate department to put them in? A. No, sir. Q. Have you ever had any epidemic diseases there? A. Measles. 433 Q. How about fevers? A. A few cases of typhoid fever. I think it was last summer we had two or three cases. Each summer we usually have a few; not many, though. Q. What treatment do you give these tuberculosis patients? A. Well, as I say, I try to put them in a room to themselves, and in¬ sist upon their windows being kept open so as to give them as much fresh air as possible. I give them as much nourishing food as they can possibly eat; eggs, bread and butter; and that is all there is to do. Q. All you can do? No drug treatment is necessary? A. As the symptoms arise I give them something, and when the coughing is severe and various other symptoms that might arise. That seems to be the improved treatment of the day for tuberculosis. There is no other than fresh air and good food. Q. They go out pretty fast when it develops? A. Yes, sir. Negroes seem to be very prone to it. Q. To the disease? A. It always seems to run a very rapid course. In a great many instances it assumes an acute type. Another thing we have to contend with is the fact that they will invariably keep the blankets over their heads. You can tell them to remove it a thousand times, but still they leave it over them. Q. They can’t resist disease like a white man? A. No, sir, I don’t think they have the resistance of a white man. You find that among the half-breed, the mulattoes, too. Q. What is your judgment as to this climate for tuberculosis? A. I think it is prfetty good. The idea is that fresh air is what accom¬ plishes the cure, and I believe you can get as much exygen here as anywhere else. Q. Have you any patients in there you think are entitled to come out? A. No, sir. There is one instance mentioned here by Dr. Babcock of a man and his wife being here. The man is over in that department. I agreed to recommend his going, although I must say I feel a little doubt about his case at this time. Q. Have you any disposition to keep anybody here after they ought to get out? A. No, sir. We haven’t room for those we have, and we would like to get rid of about fifteen or twenty a day, because they are coming in almost at that rate. 0 . Is their coming on the increase? A. Yes, sir. Q. How rapid from one year to another? A. I don’t know that I can give any comparative figures about it. Q. Compared with when you first came here, in 1905? A. I think 28—A. 434 we are receiving a great many more than we were at that time; I think the actual number is greater. Mr. Sawyer—As to the general physical condition of your patients over there, are they in a generally fair condition, physically ? A. On admission ? Q. Now? A. Yes, sir, very good; very good, I think. Q. Would not that indicate that the food is ordinarily wholesome, sustaining food ? A. I think—I am sure of that—they look very well nourished. Q. If they were not pretty well nourished, wouldn’t they lose flesh? A. I think it is good, and, in many instances, better than they are accustomed to. Q. You said you made a thorough inspection every morning. You do not reside on the grounds? A. No, sir, but I am subject to orders here any time, night, day, afternoon, or any other time. If I have a desperately ill case I come back and see after it. Q. Just as in your private practice? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you do anything besides look after those colored male pa¬ tients? A. I do the bacteriological work of the institution. Q. You make bacteriological examinations for other departments besides your own? A. Yas, sir. Dr. Saunders does some of hers, but I think that is rather from preference. She likes the work, but I am here for that purpose and do the bulk of it. Q. If there is any general surgery, do you have anything to do with that? A. Yes, on the male department I do. We don’t attempt any abdominal operations; what we call major operations; but if amputation is needed, or an operation for piles, or painful glands, or anything of that sort, I do it. Q. General surgery? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any appliances for that? How do you arrange for that? A. Some time ago, in an amputation of the arm, I did it in this reception room down here. Q. You fixed up the room? A. Yes, sir ; the nurses on the female department fixed it up, and we did the operation, I think, in an antiseptic manner. There was no supuration. Q. The nurse that assisted you in that; was she competent for that class of work, general surgical work ? A. Yes, sir. I don’t think, as a rule, any of the nurses have any special training for that line. We haven’t but a little bit of that sort of work. We have a great many lacerated wounds. A great many of them come in here with them. A man was received with quite an extensive laceration on his 435 neck, where he cut himself on his way over here to the institution. He had a pretty ugly wound when he came. Q. Is he getting on pretty well? A. Yes, sir. I dress him myself every day. Q. At this time the profession is pretty well divided up as to surgery? You have said that you had charge of that class of work? A. Yes, sir. Q. Abdominal surgery? A. Yes, sir. Q. And are you equipped today for operations in general surgery? A. 1 don’t think that we are well equipped for that sort of work. In the department minor cases we do on the wards. We fix up a room. We have that room fumigated, and we have its walls wiped down with antiseptics, and try to make it as antiseptic as possible. Q. About as good as a general practictioner would have at his office? A. Yes, sir; or at home. Mr. Carey—There has been some testimony that Dr. Babcock— you may have testified to that—that is contained in the charges that are made, that he was not in touch with certain departments. Do you consider that Dr. Babcock, as Superintendent, and you as assistant physician in this institution, that Dr. Babcock is in touch with you and your department? A. Yes, sir. I have always felt so. He has certainly never ignored any suggestions or recommendations I have made with regard to it, or whenever I have consulted him he has always given me a hearing, and every other consideration. Q. Whenever you have - reported anything, as cruelty on the part of the nurses, he has always acted promptly? A. Yes, sir. Not long ago I went to him about a case, but I first asked him—I wanted to get his idea about the treatment of patients. I asked him under what conditions would a nurse be justified in striking a patient, and he answered, with a great deal of feeling and emphasis, “Under no conditions,” and I related this case to him, and he told me to have the man sent to him at once, and the man was immediately dismissed, and the whole transaction was completed, I suppose, in half an hour—the man was off the premises in that time. Q. You graduated at what might be termed one of the later medical schools, under modern medical conditions, and you have been here nearly five years ? Do you consider that Dr. Babcock has been guilty of inefficiency or incapacity, as is charged here, in the administration of the affairs of this institution? A. 1 certainly do not. Q. So far as you know, Mr. Bunch, in his department; is he an 436 efficient and capable manager? A. I certainly think so. Of course, I have very little to do with the commissary department, or anything of that sort, but everything that I have known of his department, it is as ideal as it could be under the circumstances. Q. It has been charged that two or three patients have bathed in the same water. Has that been done in your department? A. I heard a short time ago that something of that kind had been done in the winter time. In the winter the supply of hot water is not sufficient, and we have a great many feeble patients over there. On one ward—it is called old folks’ home—and those patients cannot be bathed in cold water. In other words, the hot water supply is inadequate, and I found that a good many patients, or some attendants—I never heard just how many; I don’t suppose more than two or three—have been bathed in the same water. Q. Was that in your department? A. Yes, sir; but as soon as I heard about it I got all the nurses together and gave them a talk about it, and I told them that if anything of that sort happened again that they would be reported to the Superintendent, and it would mean their expulsion. 0 . At once? A. Yes, sir. Q. And it has not occurred since then? A. No, sir. After that I stationed a nurse over the bath. • It is his duty to stand over the bathtub and see that it is not done, and I take the pains to see that that nurse is standing there. Q. You think, for an ordinary crowd of negro men, as the food is cooked, that it is wholesome and comparatively well prepared? A. Yes, sir, I think it is fairly well prepared. I would not just care to live on it myself. 0 . It could be better and could be worse? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison—This crowded condition over there I don’t think has been sufficiently brought out. About how many patients are on the fourth ward? That is, the first one? A. No, that is the third ward. We have one, two, three, and have been calling that lower ward the first, designated as the first. We have thirty-five out there. O. How many nurses there? A. Two. Q. Those are violent? A. Yes, sir. a great many are violent. We trv to put as many violent patients as possible over there as possible, and when they become quieted we put them upstairs. 0 . On the first ward above it? A. We have about 107. 0 . How many nurses on that ward? A. Two. 437 Q. Then on the second ward ? A. The second ward is the hospital ward. We have three on that. Q. How many patients? A. That varies. Q. Approximately? A. We have about 76, I think it is, on there today. I think that is the correct number. Q. The third ward? A. One hundred and eleven. Q. How many nurses? A. Two. Q. The nursing force, in your opinion, is absolutely inadequate to handle the situation? A. Yes, sir; I don’t think we have near as many as we ought to have. Q. As to the equipment that you have, have you any shower baths? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any appliances for water treatment of the patients? A. No, sir. Q. Have you ever made an estimate, or have you any idea, how much it would cost to install that system? A. No, I have not. I don’t know. Q. You could not give us an idea? A. I would say offhand that such equipment would cost several hundred dollars. Q. About what men would you have to have to operate it after it was installed ? A. I think it would require an expert. Q. A bathing master? A. A masseur; yes, sir. Q. He would have to have an assistant? A. Yes, I think so. Q. We are looking to the future policy of the institution. In case you had that, would not your percentage of recoveries, in your judgment, be larger, or would it resolve itself into a simple question of judgment? A. I think possibly it would in some instances, but I don’t think hydrotherapy is curative in every instance, by any means. Q. Not in every instance? A. I think it is an excellent thing. I think a great deal is accomplished through it. Q. In your judgment, would it not be money very well expended, other things being equal? A. Yes, sir, I think so. They are using it now in a good many of the institutions over the country. Q. You have a bathtub and a closet and arrangements for each ward, have you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. They are indoors, are they not? A. It is just in a large room. It is partitioned off from the bathtub. It is partitioned off from the wards. Q. Those bathrooms and water closets were in a measure separate? A. It is, of course, a part of the building. It is not set 438 off at all. One bathroom is right above the other. It is a sort of wing. Q. I was trying to get at the idea of putting the bathrooms in a tower of that sort. I believe that is a sort of tower that runs up? A. Yes. Q. Isn’t that true ? A. It is a sort of wing. Q. Isn’t that much better to have it so placed? A. You will have to undo it pretty near. It could not be separated. Q. I notice in all these new buildings that all the bathrooms are put in towers? Don’t you think that is an excellent idea, or do you not? A. Yes, sir, I do, in a measure; that is, separated from the main building; but there is an indirect communication there. Q. In other words, it is more sanitary? A. Yes, sir. Q. How about the heating system? A. We have a heating system over there, but it has not been satisfactory. Q. Is that from the boiler, too? A. It is steam heat. It has been necessary to keep the stoves. Q. That is very bad, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir; I think we should not have them. 0. The open stoves? A. Yes, sir. These patients hover around it in cold weather and expectorate on the stove and around the stove, and that dries, and everybody in there is breathing tuberculosis germs. That is one of the great dangers. Sometimes a patient falls. There is a kind of iron ring or cage, but if the heating system was sufficient it would be far better. 0. About the floors in that building, aren’t they in a pretty bad condition, or are they not? A. There is just one single layer of boards on the floors, and whenever we scour the water comes down from the floor above. Q. It is that that causes the plastering to come off, is it not? A. I suppose so. I don’t believe there is much plastering up there. Q. How about your verandas, have you enough? A. I have thought for a long time that we ought to have a veranda on the second ward, the hospital ward. That is the one where we have those old indigent patients that are unable to go up and down stairs, and I think we ought to have a place for them to go out into the open, and I think we are very much in need of it, and I think it would be well to have it up above the third ward. To my mind, it is very necessary for the hospital ward, and I think the idea was to ha^e it provided under the original plan on the east side of the building, but it was 439 never put there. The door, I notice, is cut down to- the floor. I believe I heard Dr. Babcock say that was the original intention. Q. Perhaps it has been for lack of funds? A. Yes, sir. Q. I wanted to ask you about your idea of the treatment of the insane—your ideas as to work. Do you think that beneficial? A. The treatment that we give? Q. I mean your ideas as to the future policy. What would be your idea of work, as treatment ? How do you consider it, good or bad—the value of occupation as treatment for insanity here? A. I think it is good. I think it is a diversion for the patient, and I think many of them improve when they are sent out to work. I find that to be the case in many instances here. Q. Any diversion would cause improvement—amusement or exercise? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where would you place drugs as a treatment for insanity in that list? A. That would come way down. I guess there are many cases of insanity that the conditions are dependent on physical con¬ ditions, but the mental condition is secondary to it. In many cases by building up the general health by means of tonics, etc., there is improvement in the mental condition, and insanity is due in some instances to a specific cause. By treating these conditions we get improvement in the mental condition. Q. In that line of cases I understand you do use it? A. Under the circumstances. Q. Under the circumstances in which you work you have to use quite a good deal of physical restraint? A. Yes, sir. Q. If you were able to divert them more, could give them more exercise, and the water treatment, that would be very largely reduced, would it not? A. It probably would to some extent, but I do not think to a great extent. In a case of excitement, that form of insanity called mania, I think they are going to be excited anyway. Q. You would consider restraint to a large extent a necessity? A. O, yes, sir. That is the only possible way we could control them. Mr. Hardin—As a rule you give them enough to eat? A. Yes, sir. Q. They are better contented and easier to manage than white patients? A. I think there is a good deal of discontentment among them. They want to go home. Many of them chafe under the con¬ finement. Q. I think, as a rule, negroes, if you give them plenty to eat, they are not as ambitious as white people, and are much easier to manage. 440 Mr. Sawyer—In studying psychiatry, you mentioned occupation, something about occupation, and you also mentioned sunlight and diversion—where would you put hydrotherapy in the list of treat¬ ments, at the head, as being the best thing, or where? A. Just above drugs. Q. Just above drugs? A. Yes, sir. Q. You put it down as incidental, as one of the things you can do to make up the treatment like you would one of the drugs? A. Yes, sir. Q. You do not think that hydrotherapy is in itself particularly a curative agent? A. No, sir; palliative only. Q. You spoke of this heating apparatus on that ward, and I understood you to say the patients would fall upon the stove. I thought I saw some grates? A. Yes, sir, I mentioned the cages. They cannot get directly on the stove, but I have seen them stick their hands through on to the red hot stove. Q. Do they get burned? A. Yes, sir. I have actually known them to climb over that grate to the stove. Q. As to this bathroom situation, you say these newer buildings have towers ? Do you think it would be good policy to so alter that building over there as to change it, considering the other needs of the institution, would you consider it good policy to change that to put baths, or let that stand and spend the money for some other things that are needed here? A. I would rather have more room. I would rather have a veranda than to have that change made. 0. If the taxpayers have got to put up more money, which they have got to do, do you think it would be the best policy to spend the money for tubercular patients in putting up canvas, or put in one of Dr. Barouche’s cabinets? Which would do the greatest good? A. I think shacks, wooden buildings, for tubercular patients. I think that is the most urgent need over there now. Mr. Harrison—Is it not a fact that every building that Dr. Babcock has built, including the Parker building, has towers? A. Yes, sir. Q. Hasn’t the Parker building those towers ? A. They don’t seem to be separate. Q. I don’t mean separate; built on to the building? A. Yes, sir. Q. Don’t you think that is a wise provision of the architect? A. Yes, sir, I do. Q. That was the thing I wanted to bring out, to show that in the erection of these towers that Dr. Babcock had acted wisely ? A. Yes, sir, I do. (The hearing thereupon adjourned until the afternoon.) *' i i fii ffl f Jf JPjjV^f 9 bUmm 1 M