Cornell University Library S 441.C2R6 Evidence of James W. Robertson, Commlsslo 3 1924 000 339 121 'Sim ^ork g>tote Ololkm? of Agrlrulturi? At ©nrnfU IniBwrattB iCtbrarg ^.^ H\ Cornell University Library The original of tiiis book is in tine Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924000339121 EVIDENCE OF JAMES W. ROBERTSON COMMISSIONER OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING BEFORE THE SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE AGRICULTURE AND COLONIZATION APRIL 1898 PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT OTTAWA GOVERNMENT PRINTING BUREAU 1898 OONTEKTS. Page. DOMINION DAIRY STATIONS 5 As Dairy Schools , 6 Their Influence on Co-operative Dairying 6 Government Creameries in N. W. T 7 Butter for Japan and West Indies 3 COLD STORAGE 11 Cold Storage and the Export Trade 11 Early Apples in Cold Storage 13 Ventilated Cool Storage 14 Cold Storaige on Steamers 15 Cold Storage on Railways i 16, 21 Cold Storage a/t Creajlnerles 17 VISIT TO GREAT BRITAIN 22 ILLUSTRATION STATIONS FOR FARMERS 25 InstruQtion by Object Lessons 26 Cultivation of the Soil ." 28 Probable Benefits to Agriculture ' 30 ADDRESS BY HON. MR. FISHER 35 Discussion by Mr. Robertson ■ 39 Farmers' Institutes 39 TRIAL SHIPMENTS OF FRUIT 43 The Packing of Fruit 44 Quantities in Trial Shipments 46 Agreement -with the Shippers 47 Supplying Manitoba 50 No Market yet for Grapes 51 DAIRY LEXJISLATION 52 Difficulties of Enforcement 53 Parties who would (be Affected 54 Speculation and Gambling in Futures 55 POULTRY • 59 Proper Fattening of Poultry ■ - 59 Method of Killing.. 60 Superficial Information Misleading '. .» 61 Birds should be Sorted Into Sizes .-. .■ 62 Value of Imports by Great Britain 63 EGGS 6* Prices of Different Grades 64 Infertile vs. Fertile Eggs 66 ^ Preservation of Eggs 67 Committee Room No. 46, House of Commons, April 20th, 1898. The Select Standing Committee on Agriculture and Colonization met at 11 a.m. to-day ; Mr. Bain, Chairman, presiding. Mr. James W. Robertson, Commissioner of Agriculture and Dairying, was present by request of the Committee, and made the following statements : — GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE TO FARM INTERESTS. Mr- Chairman and Gentlemen of the Committee, — The Department of Agri- culture is giving direct assistance to farmers in several ways. One of these is by carrying on investigations to find out the principles and methods that may be applied in their own work on their own places. Then the Department is also giving illustrations in various ways as to how these principles and methods can be carried on economically. Our Dominion dairy stations, from their very beginning, and in every province and territory, have been illustration stations — not research stations — to show the farmers how a particular thing can be done to get the best return in product at the lowest cost to themselves. The Department has added to that work a cold storage service, which is intended to furnish the best class of transportation facilities for perishable products. The Department has also been looking into markets for these products and by trial shipments finding out how much might be gotten back for the farmers, for kinds of products that they have not been sending to these places. The imparting of information to the farmers about these markets and the conditions existing in them has been done to make their labour on their farms more profitable to themselves. That leads me this morning, to give a very brief summary and review of the illustration work of the Department in connection with the dairy stations. I would like to make it quite clear at the beginning that an illustration station is different from a research or experimental station. The Government, all governments, maintain research stations for finding out things; these have to be conducted in scientific ways, and; the work carried on regardless of expense, so far as immediate revenues are concerned; but that is quite different from the work of illustration stations, which are always to be conducted with an eye to the cost and the revenue, conducted for a return, and an immediate return at that. Dominion dairy stations which are illustration stations — not research stations to 5 6 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER find out things, but illustration stations — ^have been provided so that what we know can be put into operation and produce a return at once. I will not burden my statement with many details. Dominion dairy stations were started for a definite purpose; we had a particular plan and object in view. The first object was to in- troduce the making of butter through the winter at cheese factories; the second object was to introduce co-operative dairying in large districts where the farmers did not know how to conduct that system; and the third object was to grade up the quality of butter and cheese in all the provinces. Working towards the realiza- tion of that plan, these have been the results so far: We are now out of that business in Eastern Canada, excepting that we have one little station at Nappan, Nova Scotia. The Department has done what it started out to do, with the result that this winter there were running in Canada more than 150 creameries, making butter^ll winter and turning out about $10,000 worth of butter, each. The Department has no further expense in that work. The illustra- tions were so successfully carried out that they resulted in that short time in found- ing an industry which must become increasingly profitable to the farmers through- out Canada. DAIRY SCHOOLS. The dairy stations were used also, incidentally, for dairy school purposes. Par- ticularly in Quebec was that kind of work needed — not schools to impart general information or even to turn out men who would be skilled or learned in what you might call dairy or agricultural lore, but schools where a man would have object lessons, illustration schools where he would see for a short time in practical opera- tion the best methods of carrying on his work. To indicate the success of this work in Quebec, I may say that at the school of St. Hyacinthe there were, during 1892- 93, the first year of that work, 214 pupils; 1893-94, 268 pupils; 1894-95, 328 pupils; 1895-96, 274 pupils. Since that time the Department has dropped that work, and given it over to the charge of the Provincial Dairymen's Association. After having got it well going, and it perhaps would not have been started at all otherwise, the Department properly leaves to the provincial authorities the provincial work of education. Thafi was an incidental work of the dairy stations. They were not organized for that purpose because we had a specific object in view, but, as the opportunity for doing other good work presented itself, we availed ourselves of it and tried to do that work. PROGRESS OP CO-OPERATIVE DAIRYING UNDER GOVERNMENT SUPERVISION. An effort was made to introduce co-operative dairying in the provinces where that had not been carried on before. That work was taken up in all parts of Can- ada, and perhaps a summary of the operation^ in Prince Edward Island will show what was done and how the Department can easily do a lot of work, and then, at the proper time, drop it. I am saying this because I think a great many Members of Parliament have a feeling that when a new plan is adopted by which the Govern- ment can give assistance to farmers, the country is being saddled permanently with expenses which may go on increasing from year to year. On the contrary, I may tell you that a good deal of this work need not be always maintained by the Gov- ernment. When we have completed a certain work, have stuck to and followed out the plan laid down, the country may have confidence that when any further new plan has been proposed, it will be carried through to a successful conclusion. I beg to submit the following statement : — OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. Statement showing Progress of Dairying in Prince Edward Island in Stations under control of the Department of Agriculture. Year. Summer Season. 1892. 1893. 1894. 1895. 1896 1897 Winter Season. 1894-95. 1895-96. 1896-97. 1897-98'. No. of Stations. 1 11 18 30 13 No. of Patrons. 143 1,187 1,505 2,957 739 206 650 646 Lbs. of Butter made. 44,512 68,664 Lbs. of Cheese made. 28,991 108,016 97,704 63,018 457,224 802,418 1,737,269 336,289 Value of Product. $ cts. 6,381 98 48,168 79 86,242 78 159,650 47 30,885 81 5,989 26 21,053 98 18,588 65 * Nine of these were separating stations only. In 1897 there were no dairy stations managed by the Government in Prince Edward Island, but the people themselves carried on these cheese factories and cieameries. They turned out about 40,000 boxes of che,ese and had in operation themselves this past winter no less than 19 creameries running all winter, on a sound commercial basis. A similar work was begun in regard to winter dairying in Prince Edward Is- land in 1894. The Department has dropped out of that also with the result I have mentioned, of there being no less tiian 19 creameries in operation during the whole of last winter. That is a very fair record of work for one pro.ince since 1892. By Mr. Macdonald (King's) : Q. Have you the value of the output for each factory? A. I have not the value, but I assume that the value of the output of the factories for the year would be about $250,000. I have no means of getting the figures as to the output, because we have now no responsibility for these factories. GOVERNMENT DAIRIES TO ASSIST FARMERS OP THE NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES. That work led to the application of a similar system of giving assistance to farmers in the North-west Territories. That work has been very successful in the Territories, considering all the drawbacks. Last season there were in operation in the Territories 16 fully equipped creameries. I shall put in the following state- ment: — JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER Summary of the Business for the Season of 1897 at the Dominion Experimental , Dairy Stations in idle North-west Territories. Name of Station. Calgary Sdmonton . . . Grenfell Iu(}ian Head . Itinisf ail Maple Creek . Moosejaw. . . Moosouiin . . . Prince Albert Q.u'Appelle . . Red Beer . , Regina Wetaskimn. . Whitewood . . Wolseley .... yorkton .... o 31 90 80 61 81 21 57 113 43 97 66 74 47 131 47 109 I a, ' S- I 3 7,065 13,901 35,319 20,362 19,143 9,943 35,277 35,331 8,601 27,020 22,079 31,864 2,669 48,908 5,888 54,586 a St3 S Si M ^1 n s^ BB Hi Hi 168,957 327,451 390,645 191,077 261,891 225,067 342,980 '339,330 14,071 27,S64 39,706 22,715 38,621 9.921 49;2.65 31,583 20,104 25,960 30,148 30,502 17,691 46,871 20,029 49,352 ^=3 o Cts. O e8 S3" -^ CD >Ss -§§ ■gP3£ Cts. 15-4 12-68 11-50 13-43 13-91 12-72 14-04 12-68 12-95 13-52 14-70 13-65 13-68 10-50 13-09 9-94 m cts. 4 4 4 4 4 ■4 4 4 4 4 4 ■4 4 4 4 4 ■sl . P- o o 143 148 120 156 150 100 168 135 144 127 150 150 122 120 122 144 m O C3 S cts. 2,729 80 4,840 26 - -7,047 20 3,959 21 7,304 36 2,033 99 8,887 74 5,586 09 3,409 34 4,808 85 5,639 83 5,383 63 3,306 43 8,340 03 .'?,624 91 8,362 48 We had experimental dairy stations at Caigary, Edmonton, Grenfell, Indian Head, Innisfail, Maple Creek, Moose Jaw, Moosomin, Prince Albert, Qu'Appelle, Red Deer, Regina, Wetaskiwin, Whitewood, Wolseley and Yorkton, at which we had in all 1,148 patrons. These turned out creamery butter up to the end of October to the value of $85,264. The prices of dairy butter were good and farmers sold dairy butter readily, all the way from 18 cents to 25 cents, whereas two years ago, when butter sold readily down here, it was not more than seven or eight cents a pound out there. By Mr. McGregor : Q. Do the gold fields take to that butter? A. Yes; but they prefer creamery. Incidentally, the sale of dairy butter is important, as men owning dairy farms write to friends and say " We get so much." In that way information about that country as a dairy country, and the locali- ties suitable for cattle, gets conveyed abroad. To each of the patrons of these creameries we send a statement of business, which shows every farmer's account, and he learns what every other farmer's herd realized. These statements are of great educational value. If one man's yield of butter is smaller than others, he looks after getting better cows and giving them better management. I sent trial shipments from the creameries to Great Britain, partly to test the market and partly to advertise the country. The results in that latter sense were satis- factory though the prices were not, for the reason that in England, owing to the engineers' stpke and the mild weather of last fall, prices dropped four cents a pound while bur butter was on the ocean. Canadian creamery sold better last winter, in proportion to Danish, than ever before. In January the quotations of the Danish were from 98 shillings to 104 shillings, while Canadian were from 98 shill- ings to 102 shillings. Four years ago our butter was 20 shillings below theirs. Q. I saw there had been a shipment from St. Mary's which brought one and sixpence above the best Danish. OF AaRICULTURU: AND DAIRYING. 9 A. That is very satisfactory. A circular letter was sent to the patrons of all creameries giving a summary of all the business; and from the reports I have re- ceived the business was satisfactory to the farmers with the exception of two creameries where they expected more than they got, but even there they could not have got more than they did. We expect to get more this year. We are running two creameries all winter in Alberta to get winter dairying founded, and the farm- ers are thoroughly satisfied with their operation. BUTTER FOR JAPAN AND WEST INDIES. We have been shipping butter to Japan, from them, and the last letter which I received — it was last week — from a large firm in Yokohama, tells of the result, and I will read it to the Committee. They say : " The butter in boxes ex-'Empress of India' is excellent, and if you send us the same quality in tins we can do m.ost of the butter trade in Japan. We trust that the packers will send nothing but the best quality otherwise the trade will be lost. I may remark for your information, that after twenty years' experience we find that butter packed in tins, hennetically sealed, arrives in good condition ; but if packed in so-called patent tins, which are opened by tearing off a strip of tin round the top, the butter is too frequently bad, owing to defective soldering of the strip. We should be glad to know the best time of year to order butter in tins and wood boxes. In wood boxes we can only order for our winter trade, say October to April, and in tins for the summer. May to September." Another firm in Kobe, Japan, writes as follows : — " Consignment per ' Empress of China ' re- ceived in good order and disposed of at once. We shall be able to pay you your invoice price of 24 cents. If you feel disposed to send another shipment by next steamer, we should be pleased to receive the same, but are somewhat afraid of such large packages in warm weather." By Mr. Calvert : Q. How much was the net price? A. The price I have given you was net. Butter tins cost about 3 cents a pound for small sizes in addition to the cost of an ordinary package. These are better than the ordinary packages, and they are very satisfactory. Here is five-pound tin, and I will spoil one of them to show the Committee how they are opened. With an instrument which is sent for that purpose the tin cover is punched through and pulled out. The slight bulging up of the centre loosens the tin all round and it slips out, whereas it cannot be pulled out or up by the edge. Other tins have the covers soldered on and the bottoms are! put on by machinery after the butter is filled in from the bottom. This other style, with pressed-in cover, will be satisfac- tory for the Klondike trade, but they stick so to forms over in Japan that it would not be wise to risk using them for that trade, for the present, at all events. By Mr. McNeill : Q. What did you say it would net per pound in tins in Japan? A. The winter price' was 26 cents, 25 cents and 24 cents a pound put on the cars at Calgary station. By Mr. MacLaren : Q. What sized packages do you use? A. We put the butter up in 14-Ib. and 28-lb. wooden boxes, and they please well in winter; but in summer the warm weather brings a risk of the butter being melted, and we use tins of 2, 5 and lo-K). sizes. 12 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER Storage buildings, from the small ice-house for the farmer up to the large cold stor- age warehouse for the merchant, with full details in each case, so that they can build from the drawings. Merchants who have been holding perishaible products in poorly-constructed cold storage buildings have complained of dampness; and we have given them information how to keep their cold storage buildings dry and cold. In the cold storage buildings at the creameries there is no trouble in keeping the temperature in summer at 34 degrees Fahr., and the walls so dr}- that a man may strike a match anywhere on the floor. In my report I point out clearly the methods by which the building is kept dry. It should be dry. Explanations and line-cut drawings are printed in full in the report. By Mr. Calvert : Q. How are these to be distributed? A. We have had no general distribution yet. We have sent out blue prints only, and those only in reply to appUca^ions for them. We have a maiUng list for the report with about 15,000 names; and in former years the Committee have recommended an extra edition for use of Members of Parliament. By Mr. McMillan : Q. What is the best material to put into a cold storage building ? A. Spruce and odorless paper for insulation. The best insulating substance is still air, and we use the paper to confine it within the hollow spaces in the walls and to prevent circulation. The best odorless lumber is spruce. Q. Have you ever tried cement ? A. No ; that would rl^quire further insulation by hollow spaces inside. There must be at least two hollow spaces in the walls. That the building can be managed without waste, the insulation must be thorough. Q. We found last year that cement buildings would keep out frost and that a cement building would keep out heat? A. Take this illustration. To build a cold storage buildiwg with regard to economy, the room must be large enough to hold half a carload of butter. This is cooled by ice. The great loss is from the penetration of heat from the outside. Seven-eighths of the ice will be consumed in taking up the heat which comes through the walls ; and only one-eighth will be required to cool the butter in the building. Ice has a wonderful cooling power; and in melting, a great capacity for absorbing heat. Take a pound of water at a temperature of 32° and a pound of water at 142°. Put these together and you get exactly an average of the two, 32° and 142°, viz., 87°. Take a pound of ice at 32° and put it in a fjound of water at 142°, and when the ice is melted the temperature will be 32°. The water has not raised the tem- perature at all. In changing froml a liquid to a solid it gives off heat; and in changing from a solid to a liquid it absorbs heat. By the Chairman : Q. What has been the cause of the most conspicuous failures in putting up cold storage buildings? A. Failure to effectually insulate the chamber. Any warm air from outside will deposit moisture on the walls and produce dampness. By Mr. McGregor : Q. If you went in from the top would it not be better? OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 13 A. The cold storage should not be ventilated at all; there should be no pro- vision for letting warm air into a cold storage building. Q. But if a person wanted to enter the room, would it not be better to go in from the top? A. The best way to protect the building from the admission of warm air is to have a receiving door or ante-chamber, so that the inside door would be closed when the outside door was open. The door of the cold storage room should be a foot above the floor, and a heavy curtain of canvas should be hung in the doorway so that a person passing in or out could push that aside. This would check the exit of cold air and the entrance of warm air. When warm air gets into the cold storage room it produces dampness. Cold storage on steamships, largely, with other cold storage service, has re- sulted in this, — that while in 1894 the shipments from Montreal were 32,000 odd packages of butter, last season thJe shipments were 220,000 packages of butter. EARLY APPLES IN COLD STORAGE. In regard to the use of cold storage for the shipment of other products, let me give this one illustration: A shipment of early soft apples that would not have kept well was made from western Ontario early in the season. There were 592 barrels in the lot; 267 of these barrels were sent in cold storage and the remainder, 325 barrels, were sent in the usual way, without cold storage. Let me explain this point. I am not speaking of late fall or winter apples ; I am referring to perishable apples that do not keep long, but which can have a good market in England. These apples which went in cold storage brought 18 shillings a barrel, and there were no damaged barrels in the lot — none reported wet or slack. Of the 325 barrels that went, not in cold storage the average prite was 8,Shillings a barrel, and no. less than 205 barrels were reported back, "wet or slack," or 63 per cent. The salesmen in England said that they were badly packed. The complaint in England all along has been that apples are badly packed. Q. You said they were taken from the same orchard? .A Yes, but the salesmen said the packing was the cause of their condition. As a matter of fact, the injury is not done in the packing, but in the shipping. These apples were put in a warm hold where they got warm and slack. This is a simple instance of the possibiUties of cold storage on ships for carrying early fall apples. By Mr. McNeill : Q. What prices were received for the different lots? A. Those that went in cold storage brought 18 shillings, and those not in cold storage, 8 shillings a barrel. These prices were not so high as those obtained for later shipments of winter apples which were of a better variety. Q. What was the variety of the shipment to which you referred ? A. I do not know that. Q. What was the difference in the cost of shipment between tliose in cold storage, and those out of cold storage? A. Twenty-three cents a barrel. 14 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, jCOMMISSIONER By Mr. Clancy : Q. Were those sold at a low price in bad condition? A. Yes, in the proportion of 63 per cent being reported back, as " wet and slack." There was no damage from breaking at all. I think at least 30 per cent of all the apples that have gone from Montreal in past years have been reported back like that, and the fruit packers and shippers have said: "These* men over there are thieves, because our apples are packed all alike and there should not be any wet or slack apples in ours." They could not understand how it occurred. The injury is caused between the point of shipment here and the destination, and by removing the cause of that injury the shipments will arrive in better condition. By Mr. Rogers : Q. Was the cold, storage space all takefi at the time that shipment was made? A. At that time of, the year it was all taken. There has been great difificulty in securing space in August and September. There is a great congestion of traffic for cold storage in these two ftibiitils. '" ' VENTILATED COOIj STORAGE. By Mr. McGregor : Q. Are they proposing to increase the space? A. Some of the steamship companies are enlarging their space, and the Gov- ernment has arranged for four new steamships from Montreal. With the view of making provision for later shipments of apples, a circular letter was sent to the steamship agents in regard to the ventilation of the holds of their vessels. It was suggested that they should provide ventilating shafts to the bottom of the holds, and electric fans, in order to suck the air out through the top. For late apples I think this is as good as cold storage — keeping the hold of the vessel at a tempera- ture of 40 or 50 degrees. One thing that has received attention is the treatment of products after they have left the cold storage compartments. One shipper who had sent eggs across in cold storage was "informed that they looked sooty when they came out. That shipper sent word across to his consignees in England to keep the eggs closed up in the cases for two days after they came out of the cold storage. When taken out of the cold storage immediately the surface of the eggs became coated with moisture, condensed from the air, which produced discoloration. These eggs were reported as sweating from within, but the fact is that there was simply a condensation on the outside of the eggs. Shippers were advised to keep the cases closed for two days after being removed from cold storage; and after that they were found to be in faultless condition. Mr. Wilson, of Seaforth, one of the largest egg shippers said that there was not a single complaint when that practice was followed. By Mr. MacLaren : Q. In putting the eggs into cold storage would that apply ; do you think it is advisable to place them in the cold storage at once? A. I think it would be a good plan to put them in a cooling room for a day and then put them into the cold storage. OF AGRIGULTUPK AND DAIRYING. 15 By Mr. McMillan: Q. Is it not a fact that instances have occurred that the temperature was so low that the eggs became partially frozen during shipment: A. It is so reported, and that was the cause of nearly the total loss of one of our trial shipments of fruit. It went with a shipment of egj;s. A former shipment of eggs had been reported as arriving with some of the cjises frozen. When the steamer was leaving the wharf instructions were sent to the engineer to take no risk on those eggs, and to keep the temperatur.e of the cold storage at 48° Fahr. That practically spoiled the tender fruits. By Mr. Rogers : Q. Have you made any trial shipments of meat in cold storage? A. One shipment of beef went on the steamer I crossed by last year, but I will touch on that later. Butter and fruit and eggs are three things the packages of which! should be kept closed for one or two days after being taken out of cold storage, otherwise condensation spoils the surface, and it is by the surface appear- ance and condition that they are tested. * COLD STORAGE ARRANGEMENTS FOR OCEAN TRANSPORT. I now come to cold storage on steamers. We have cold storage on seventeen steamers sailing from the port of Montreal, to Bristol, to London, to Liverpool, almost weekly, and it will be weekly this year by an additional steamer being put on to Liverpool and to Glasgow fortnightly. Arrangements are being made for three steamships from Halifax and St. John. Last summer they would have been' put on but they could not get the machinery for them owing to the engineers' strike. Then there is the " Beta " plying from Halifax to the West Indies. In steamship service, what is needed most in addition to cold storage is regularity in delivery in Great Britain, not so much the getting of our products there sooner or later, but getting them there on the same day of the week, every week. It was only yesterday that I had a merchant in to see me who is over here looking for business, and he said to me that one thing they found difficult was to get Canadian goods in Cana- dian vessels to arrive on a known day; and so they ordered their goods to come by New York. By Mr. Wilson : Q. There would be a difficulty any way ? A. No, because from New York they land their goods on Tuesday or Thurs- day every time. I may say this, without breach of faith, that the William Davies Packing Company, of Toronto, the largest pork packing firm in Canada, send, weekly, one train load of bacon by way of New York because they are accustomed to have them arrive on a certain day in the week. Q. Have strong representations been made to our shippers to that effect? A. Last year there were. Q. What reason was given for their not doing so? A. They had several reasons. Mr. McMillan : — Fog is one reason. Mr. Wilson : — ^There is no reason why it should cause a delay. 16 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER The Minister of Agricui-Tuee : — The facilities in Montreal for loading are not sufficient ; that is the largest reason. COLD STORAGE ON RAILWAYS. Mr. Robertson : — The next point in relation to cold storage is that provided on the railways. We have ten routes on the Canadian Pacific Railway, and eight on the Grand Trunk Railway leading to Montreal. The) financial arrangements are, in brief, that the railway companies have a guarantee from, us that every car sha.U earn two-thirds of a carload rate, and then every shipper along the line can get his products carried at the usual less-than-carload rates. The earnings on freight carried are deducted from what would be two-thirds of a carload rate, and the Gov- ernment pays only the difference. On some of the routes the Government has rio responsibility now, as they are self-sustaining; but on others the Government still has to pay something. It is not possible, apparently, to get business until these cold storage facilities are given. By M,r. Wilson : Q. Has the loss been heavy? A. The payment to the Canadian Pacific Railway in 1896, was $805.08; and to the Grand Trunk Railway about $250 more. The accounts for 1897 are not settled yet. By the Chairman : Q. And they find their own cars? A. Yes. Q. And control the kind of cars? A. Yes. All we did was to give them plans by which they could alter common cars into cold storage cars, and they did so with a number of cars. That cost them about $200 per car. The Government keeps a cold storage inspector at Montreal and he examines the refrigerator cars and contents. We had complaints that some- times there was not enough ice in the ice-chamber, or that the doors had been open; and the result of the appointment of this inspector has been very satisfactory. By Mr. McMillan : Q. It is an important point that goods by Canadian Unes should be landed upon the same day as via New York; is anything being done in that regard? A. This will be done. Some of the companies are now keeping cold storage warehouses on the wharfs at Liverpool, and also at Bristol, and they can get ship- ments in one day ahead sometimes and keep them there. It is only in the last few years that this great demand for regularity of arrival has arisen in England, and the- demand that goods should arrive on the same day every week. The vessels which; are supplying cold storage are : To Bristol, the Elder-Dempster line ; to London, the Allan and Thomson lines; to Liverpool, a joint service by the Allan and Domin- ion lines; to Glasgow, a joint service by the Allan and Donaldson lines; and the service from Halifax and St. John will be by the Fumess line. By Mr. McNeill : Q. Do I understand you to say that for soft early apples there is a big market in England, in cold storage? A. I do ; there was a capital demand^ OF AQRIGULTURE AND DAIRYING. 17 COUD STORAGE AT CREAMERIES. Then another part of the cold storage service is that of assisting the owners to put up cold storage chambers at their creameries. It is no use having cold storage cars on the railways and cold storage chambers on steamships, unless the butter is kept in good condition from the time it is made until it is put upon the market, and so illustrations and plans have been gi\ en, showing the methods of improving and of putting up cold storage chambers. Last year the bonus was paid to sixty- nine creameries. By Mr. Wilson : Q. Out of how many ? A. There are some 300 altogether, I think, and Quebec has the largest share of them. A bonus of this character was offered, amounting to $100, of which $50 was payable the first year and $25 in each of two succeeding years if the owner kept the building in use, and according to regulations. It is hard to get a new thing into practice, or even to have it understood; and so, by sending out circulars, just sixty- nine availed themselves of the information last year. But there were 107 applica- tions from Quebec alone, by the end of November last, asking for information. By Mr. Parmalee : Q. These will get the full bonus? A. Yes, they will get the full bonus, if they fulfil the conditions. They will receive $50, and $25 a year in two succeeding years. By the end of this year we expect that more than two-thirds of the creameries will have put in cold storage. By Mr. MacLaren : Q. Have you any system of keeping butter cool between the creameries and the stations; that is a place where it is often injurel? A. The only thing we did was to send notice to the creamery owners to bag the boxes and cover them in the wagons. With canvas bags on the boxes and wooden boxes on the butter it should stand two hours' exposure, at a summer temperature, without harm. Mr. Talbot : — We treat our butter that way in Quebec. By Mr. McMillan : Q. Seeing the benefit of these bonuses in encouraging the construction of cold storage in creameries it would be well to extend it for another year? A. It has been extended for this year. By Mr. Wilson : Q. These people will have to use the cold storage at their creameries to get the full bonus? A. Yes, they get $50 at once if they provide it, and the rest in two payments of $25 each. Each creamery owner must send in a report of the daily temperature. Q. He keeps a record, and how often does he send it in ? A. At the end of every month. 2 18 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER By Mr. Stenson,: Q. Only sixty-nine creameries have taken advantage of this bonus? A. Sixty-nine had cold storage in operation at the end of 1897 and were paid the bonus, but this last winter some 140 altogether have applied for plans, saying that they were going to put cold storage in. Q. That is apart from these sixty-nine? A. Yes. ■Q. And the total number of creameries is about 300 ? A. Yes. They are mostly in Quebec, and some sometimes make butter and sometirnes cheese. Q. So that nearly the whole number made application? A. I think by the end of 1898 that two-thirds of all the creameries in Canada will have cold storage rooms in use. Then, to complete the cham from the railway to the steamships there was a cold storage guarantee for a warehouse at the differ- ent ports. Quebec was the only port that availed itself of the offer. Nothing was done at Halifax, Charlottetown or St. John. Q. Have they a cold storage building at Quebec? A. Yes. Q. And in Montreal? A. Yes, Montreal has sufficient cold storage accommodation. By Mr. McMillan : Q. What is the difference in the price of butter at? the creamery with cold storage ai:d at creameries that ship without cold storage ? A. I have no means of getting at that, except that the Montreal buyers insist on creameries having cold storage even if they ship every week. Mr. McMillan : — I am told that a shipper averages lyi cents a pound more for his butter on account of having cold storage. Mr. Robertson: — -Butter begins to change from the time it is one day old, if it is kept warm ; when it is kept at a low temperature, the different forms of low life in the butter cannot act. Q. How many make both butter and cheese? A. Very few make both at the same time. There are between 150 and 165 creameries that make butter all winter, and most of them make cheese in summer. In addition to those there are about 300 creameries making butter in the summer. By Mr. Talbot : Q. Is the butter made in the winter as good as that made in the summer? A. Butter made in winter can be made quite as nice, but more care is required. I have put directions in my report on winter dairying — instructions as full as possible, how to feed the cows, handle the milk, make the butter, and so forth. By Mr. McNeill : Q. How much can an ordinary farmer put up an ice-house for in which to cool his own milk? OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 19 A. A cold storage building to hold twenty tons of ice, with a cold storage chamber fit to hold the milk, and about a ton of products, would cost, complete, about $120. By Mr. Wilson : Q. Is that the kind you give a bonus for? A. No. We give a bonus for a creamery only. Q. Could you put up a building similar to what you give a bonus for, for the same price? A. No, because that would require about 50 tons of ice instead of about 20 tons, and a creamery would need enough space to hold about 5,000 pounds of butter. The other building is similar to a small skimming station. By Mr. McNeill : Q. What would be the dimensions of that farm building ? A. The dimensions would be about twenty-four by sixteen ; that is with ice in one end and cold storage in the other. By Mr. McMillan : Q. Does your report give an explanation of this building ? A. Yes, we have gone to a little expense to make drawings and plans of build- ings so as to have everything plain. Q. Do you deal with a cheese factory also? A. Yes, in a special bulletin. Q. How about a refrigerator for groceries? A. Yes ; we have, one suitable for that too. One end would have accommoda- tion for about three carloads. We have plans for a building with ice overhead, suitable for holding two carloads of miscellaneous products. Q. Have you any designs for small refrigerators? A. Yes, we have what is meant for that pui-pose, with a capacity of less than a carload. We have the drawings, and if anybody wants them in the meantime, be- fore the report is printed, we have blue prints and can send to anyone who really wants to use them. By Mr. Stenson : Q. As I understand, there are 300 creameries making nothing but butter, and 165 besides making butter and cheese ; that will be a total of 465? A. Yes, that is, the two together; but the figures are not exact, for the number of creameries varies from time to time. Of cheese factories, there are altogether in the Dominion about 2,700. By Mr. MacLaren : Q. What is the difference between the quantity of cheese produced in Ontario and the quantity produced in Quebec? A.. The quantity of cheese made in Quebec is now quite as large as the quan- tity made in Ontario. 20 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER Q. How is it with regard to butter? _ . A. The butter made in Quebec in creameries in the summer time is about three times as much as the butter made in Ontario. There are more than three times as many winter creameries in Ontario as in Quebec at the present time. By Mr. Clancy : Q. How do the proportions stand between that made in v>?inter compared with summer? A. Speaking subject to correction, I would say that butter made in creameries in Quebec in summer time would be about three and one-half times the quantity made in Ontario in winter creameries. By Mr. Calvert : Q. Is it a mistake to make cheese too early in the season? A. I took the liberty of giving an interview to the press last week on that subject. One' of the greatest mistakes dairymen could make this year would be to open cheese factories in April or May. I am of opinion that they should hold off till after May, and make butter, raise pigs and calves. They would get more money for their cheese than if they started the factories earlier. By Mr. MacLaren : Q. How long would you have the factories closed in that case? A. We should keep cheese factories closed from the middle of October to the end of April as a rule. By Mr. Stenson : Q. What is the proportion of cheese made in Quebec? A. I believe now that the quantity made in Quebec is a little larger than the quantity made in Ontario. By Mr. MacLaren : Q. That is within recent years? A. Within the last four years, largely. I have made an examination of that in this way: I take the total exports from Canada, then I take the statistics of Ontario, which are pretty accurate. I take off the maritime provinces product and credit Quebec with the balance. In that way I find that Quebec turns out a little more than Ontario. Q. We have better cheese factories? A. Oh, yes, bigger ones. By Mr. Wilson^: Q. You have said something about the proper care of butter from the day it is made. I understood you to have made the statement that you could keep butter without losing its flavour for two or three months, after its production, if properly kept? A. Yes, it is quite possible to do that. If butter is to be kept for three months it should be kept at a temperature of 20 degrees Fahr., which is 12 below the freezing point of water. I had some butter made at Moose Jaw, N..WT., in May of last year, and May butter is not supposed to be the best keeping butter; it is supposed OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYIXG. 21 to be about the worst for keeping purposes. That butter was put in cold storage and shipped to Montreal. I held it, instead of sending it on with the first shipment, until the last shipment at the end of October. Some of that blitter was sold for 102 shillings in November, in the market in which the best price was 104 shillings. I may add to what I have said in regard to cold storage, that the Government provided a cold storage building at Revelstoke, B.C,. chiefly for the purpose of as- sisting the farmers of Manitoba and North-west Territories, and to facilitate the delivery of their products in the Kootenay country in good condition, and the results have been most satisfactory. It gave the Canadian dairymen an opportu- nity of sending butter, and other things into the mining country. These used to come from Spokane Falls; and now some of the merchants themselves offer to lease the cold storage building there and take it off our hands. If desirable, that may be done this year or next year, it having served its purpose. By Mr. Sproule : Q. I understood you to say there were nine routes on the Canadian Pacific Railway on which cold storage cars were run ? A. Ten, I think, on the Canadian Pacific Railway. I have not the list, but I will try and give them to you from memory. There is one from Windsor, Ont., to Montreal. There is one from Owen Sound and Teeswater on alternate weeks. , Q. They run weekly from Owen Sound? A. They run alternately from Teeswater and Owen Sound, and that gives you a weekly service from Orangeville. Then there is cold storage from Cookshire way. There is one from Pembroke, via Ottawa, to Montreal; from Labelle to Montreal ; from Quebec to Montreal. Q. That is weekly? A. Yes. Then there is a cold storage service from Scotstown, Warden and Mansonville to Montreal. By Mr. Stenson : Q. Have you any cold storage service on the Quebec, Central? A. I had an inquiry in respect to that last week, and I was instructed to write to the manager saying that we would be prepared to make the same arrangement with that road as with other railways. Then there is a service from Edmundston, New Brunswick, to St. John. As to the Grand Trunk, there is a weekly service from Sarnia via London, Hamilton and Toronto to Montreal, and an alternate ser- vice from Wiarton and Goderich via Stratford. From Meaford via AUandale, weekly; from Orillia via Belleville, weekly; from Chaudiere Junction, weekly; from Massena Springs, weekly ; and from Coaticook, weekly. By Mr. McNeill : Q. Did you sav alternate weeks from Wiarton and Goderich? A. It starts from Wiarton one week and Goderich another, and is consolidated at Stratford. By Mr. Calvert : Q. There is a weekly service from Sarnia? A. Yes. Circulars are sent out to all the shippers stating the day upon which the cold storage cars will pass their station. 22 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER By Mr. MacLaren : Q. Have you an inspector at the different wharfs where shipments are made? A. We have an inspector at Montreal, who makes an examination of refrig- erator cars and cold storage chambers on steamships. Q. How about Halifax and St. John ? A. We have only had one car running to Halifax because there is no cold storage building at tlsat place yet. If anyone sends a shipment to go into cold storage the inspector will look after the shipment from the time it gets to Mont- real until it is. put on the ship. If it misses the steamer he is authorized to have it put in a cold storage warehouse. Nothing has been done at Halifax or St. John. By Mr. Rogers : Q. Have you not made some successful attempts with the shipment of toma- toes? A. Yes; I have a statement to make on the trial shipment of fruits. By Mr. Talbot : Q. What are the possibilities for securing a market for condensed milk? A. In condensed milk there is a fair demand in England. The importation amounts to $6,805,000 worth, but I do not think that Canada can compete in Eng- land in sending over condensed milk. That is a conclusion which I have arrived at after looking into the question. First of all, they can get sugar in England much cheaper than we can, and they can get tin cans cheaper than we can get them made here. These two things are against us; there is the freight charge against us, and there is also this, that in only a few places in Canada can large quantities of milk be delivered to condensing factories twice a day. Unless it can be got twice a day milk is not so nice for long keeping. Q. Have we any market in South America ? In Brazil, for instance ? A. I think not. So far we have not had much trade with Brazil. Some years ago we did some trade in cheese and butter, but the want of commercial agencies made collections slow and difficult, because the consignments were sold on nine months time. By Mr. McNeill : Q. Where does the main supply come from ? A. From France, Switzerland, Sweden and Norway. Q. How about the cost of tins ? A. They are made cheaply in France. There is one place outside Paris where they are made very cheap. I bought some last year for butter. PERSONAL INSPECTION OF THE BRITISH MARKET. 1 would like to say a few thingsl about my visit to Great Britain last year, and I might Sgive a statement lof thd chief objects of my visit, leaving a statement regarding the products to Mr. Crandall, who joined me there and stayed after I left, as a special agent to look into the market for farm products. I went^ first to observe the conditions of the markeit in regard to all thin'gs that went from' OF AORICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 23 Canada ; to learn the latest preferences for packages, which is an important point in marketing things, and then to give information on cold storage, so as to attract attention of consumers and excite expectations of getting our products in better condition ; and also to give information through the press and at meetings, and to plan for the work of our agents. I had only a month over there, landing at Liverpool on the 5th July and leaving Londonderry on the 6th August. I at- tended a large educational congress in London and gave an address on agricul- tural education in Canada. As the report was published widely it may do service for those who are thinking of emigrating. I was called before the Parliamentary Committee on the Agricultural Products (Marks) Bill, and gave evidence along the line that Canadian products if sold in their own name could do the British farmer no injury. The unfairness now was because our products were named " Best English " and '' Best Scotch " to their injury and our loss. By correcting the impression we have removed some hostility among the British agricultural class to Canadian products. Because our products get in there in good condition they do not injure the reputation of theirs ; and the British consumers must get from somewhere more than the home grown foods. By an hon. Member : Q. How is it our loss ? A. In this way. So long as Canadian cheese is sold as " Best English " and there is a demand for it the grocer keeps that with the extra price to himself, whereas if the cheese was sold as " Best Canadian " it would create a demand for " Best Canadian " under its own name. One good thing was accomplished by legislation last year, that is getting registration numbers for the cheese so that one cannot help seeing it on the face of the article. Then I addressed a meeting in Manchester, and a meeting in Dublin, at the Mansion House, the Lord Mayor in the chair. I wish to say that while the Irish are hostile to any emigration to Canada, because they want to keep their own people in their own land, no man ever got more courteous consideration in Dublin than I did, because I was Canadian. I had a good many conferences with business men, making plans for the disposal of North-west butter, for trial shipments of fruit from Grimsby, and other business matters. I gave a good deal of time, thought, and labour to interest the newspaper men and women in Canadian resources, products, and in Canadian methods. There is great difficulty in getting matter into the British press owing to the exclusiveness of their columns. For example, the London " Times " and the Manchester " Guardian " would not accept £50 a column for matter they did not want. Nevertheless, in order to give the Committee an idea of the results of my labour in this direction, I have here a large number of clippings from some of the best newspapers in Great Britain, which did not cost us anything. I secured th*e publication of a great many articles and the insertion of some paragraphs about Canadian butter, bacon and poultry, with the hope of granting informa- tion about these subjects into the common talk of the people, which I find is a very effective method of disseminating the knowledge we want to circulate. I am going over again this summer to do the same thing. In my opinion that kind of thing is one of the best ways of getting the people to talk among themselves of our products. The grocer speaks to his customer, and the customer to his neigh- bour, and so on, and so you get a circulation of comment which cannot fail to redound to our advantage. By Mr. McNeill : Q. Do you think from what you have seen over there that there is an opening for a finer grade of cheese if we could get the manufacture of that ? a4 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIOXER A. I am quite sure there is ; because last season when over there I found the price at which the finest Scotch Cheddars were selHng in London was 62 shillings per cwt., while the finest Canadian sold in the same warehouse at 42 shillings. It is true that the Scotch Cheddar was a little finer than the Canadian, due to its being kept cool the whole time. By Mr. McGregor : Q. Does it cost much more to make the finer grade here ? A. Only the extra cost of constructing better curing rooms. By Mr. McNeill : Q. I went into one of the largest shops in Belfast and I saw the best Cana- dian Cheddar and the best English Cheddar, the latter being put up with a label as they do, the one being sold at one shilling a pound and the other at ninepence per pound, the Canadian product being ninepence. I took home some of each. I had several people taste each sample without letting them know which was which, and they, all pronounced the Canadian cheese better than the English cheese at a shilling. But what I wanted to refer to was rather such classes of cheese as the Stilton cheese. We have a superior grade of cheese put up in little pots. I would just say in regard to that inferior (?) cheese that I have brought it to the notice of some of the people in the old country who have received it with the greatest possible satisfaction. They think so much of that cheese that I am speaking of. A. Yes ; several of our friends from Great Britain have been making inquiries about potted cheese, having got it on the railway cars here. Having been the judge at Chicago, at the World's Fair, of what they called foreign cheese, my Scotch conscientiousness compelled me to score that cheese one hundred points and that was the only cheese I scored in that way — Imperial cheese. I am authorized to say that while results have proved the value of illustration work as applied to dairying, there are many other parts of farm work in regard to which illustrations can be equally useful, and I shall be prepared to put before the Committee at its next meeting, a plan for getting a great deal of illustration work started through different stations all over Canada, which I think will have the effect of increasing the yield from farms perhaps more than anything we have yet done. Mr. Fisher, Minister of Agriculture. I would like to say to the Com- mittee, lest I should not be able to attend another meeting, that the report of Professor Robertson, the first complete one he has made in some years, will shortly be ready for distribution. That report will be a compendium of information for the farmers of Canada such as was never put forward before in Canada. It is a report that deals with all the work done in the last two or three years. It makes a large number of suggestions to our farmers which I think it is of the utmost importance should come before them, and gives details of the work which is -necessary for our producers in Canada to do, if they are going to take advantage of the tremendous stimulus to the export trade now possible in the English market. The attention of England is turned to us. Englishmen are demanding to know what they can get in Canada and Englishmen are coming out to Canada by the score, possibly by the hundreds, searching for our products ; and if we are to capture that market it is necessary for producers to understand how to prepare the products for the English market, and it is of the utmost importance that in- formation should be forthcoming as soon as possible. For the departmental dis- OF AGRICULTUBE AXD DAIRYINO. 25 tribution we have a mailing Hst of 15,000 or 16,000, but I would suggest that a large number of that report should be ordered by this Committee in the usual way for ordering such special reports, and that they should be distributed from the House of Commons. Members could do nothing better in the interests of their constituents. Committee Room No. 46, House of Commons, Friday, 22nd April, 1898. The Select Standing Committee on Agriculture and Colonization met at 1 1 o'clock a.m., this day ; Mr. Bain, Chairman, presiding. Mr. James W. Robertson, Commissioner of Agriculture and Dairying, was invited to continue his statement to the Committee. By Mr. McNeill : Q. Does that $130,500,000 of imports of dressed meats by Great Britain dur- ing 1897, shown on your chart, include tinned meats? A. It includes all meats, beef, mutton, bacon, tinned meats and meats pre- served in any way. ' Mr. Robertson proceeded as follows : — Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen : — I am authorized to put before the Committee this morning a possible plan for enlarging the work of the Department of Agricul- ture. In doing that I would like to present a very brief statement of the main lines along which the Department of Agriculture is helping the farmers now — just a statement, without explanatory elaboration. The Department is helping the farmers directly through the establishment and maintenance of dairy stations and illustration work, not necessarily by experimental research but by illustrations of how things can be done profitably. The Department is helping agriculture by cold storage, by providing for the safe carriage of perishable products after they are made. It is helping agriculture by carrying on investigations into markets and getting information as to what certain markets can give and what they want. It is maintaming experimental farms. It is giving some help to agricultural societies, especially in the North-west Territories; and it is giving protection to live stock interests by veterinary service and quarantine. These are the big branches in which the Department is now giving practical aid to agriculture. During the past ten or fifteen years there has been a very marked improvement in the way of handling the manufactured articles of the farm. The cheese trade of Canada has been im- proved in quality at least 50 per cent ; that is the quality of cheese on the average made ten or twelve years ago would fetch only two-thirds the price in the market to-day that the average of cheese brings. The quality has been graded up. The same is true of our butter. There is a Ijetter understanding in the country of h:m to feed live stock profitably. A great many farmers now know what only the best men knew ten or fifteen years ago. 26 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER INSTRUCTION BY OBJECT LESSONS. There has been very much less progress in the methods of tilHng the soil, in the selection and general use of the varieties of seed, and in maintaining the fer- tility of the soil. In these three respects we have made very little progress except- ■ ing in a few of the leading localities. I think if we do not make progress in these directions that agriculture cannot be as prosperous as it might be, because, before you can get finished animal products at the lowest rate of cost, the farmer must be able to grow the largest possible yield of crops at the least expenditure of labour, while still maintaining the fertility of his soil. We all know that every experiment has two possible purposes, that of research — to find out something which is not yet known ; and that of illustration — to show how what is known can be applied economically. I do not think it is desirable to try to do these Iwo things together under the name of experiment. When Edison was working at the improvement of ■ the telephone, I dare say he must have spent more on one telephone instrument than the cost of putting in the whole telephone system of Ottawa. It is needful to spend money in research work; it is not needful to spend money in the same way on illustration work. If an experiment combines the two purposes in one the people are apt to be left between two stools, and not get much service. I think they should be kept separate. There should not be a multiplication of experiments under Government control, except under a clear, definite plan, looking towards the gaining of some knowledge. There is, a tendency, particularly noticeable to one who looks at the agricultural institutions of the United States and Canada, to make show places of experimental stations, where people go and see things which make them think it all very marvellous, btit from which they are not able to get much helpful information for their own work on their own farms. ILLUSTRATION STATIONS. I think there is need for the Department of Agriculture to give farmers infor- mation of a simple illustrative sort which they can take into their farm practice. Information should be given in a taking way — as far as possible, in a way that will take a man so much into the illustration that he will gain something for himself out of it, and use it afterwards. The information should be given in a taking way ; it should not be confined to printed reports, otherwise the information would often be buried beyond hope of resurrection. I read my own report through twice after having written it, and then, thank the Lord, I do not have to do it again. The farmer is not a man, except to a limited extent, to learn by his reading. Men engaged in handling farm tools and farm products should get their illus- trations in this way : First, where they can see them. In meetings where I had the good fortune to address farriiers, I have conveyed more information through coloured charts than in any number of words I could put together. In this way I could leave an impression on the minds of the farmers which I could not impart by spoken language only. Second, in such a manner that they will readily understand thdm. Alen who handle material objects should have material object lessons, and thus learn to put the ideas into practice. Take another illustration. There was no winter dairying at creameries in Canada a few years ago. I had been called at the Agricultural College a winter dairying crank. By giving illustrations at the Dominion dairy stations of how it could be done in a few places, the farmers saw how it could be done, and did it; and there are now 150 of these winter dairying stations in opera- tion. The movement started with illustration stations, and they copied them. In starting illustration stations for farmers it seems desirable to get local organizations to co-operate with the central authority; because, if one tries, in a OF AGRICULTURE AXD DAIRYING. 27 big country, to manage anything in all its details from the central authority, the management is less efficient and a good deal more expensive than under local direc- tion. In France they have no less than 4,000 " Example Plots " spread over the country. In twenty-five years the yield of wheat per acre has been practically doubled in a country said to be cropped out. They have doubled the yield per acre in about that time; and the example plots were not the least valuable agencies in bringing that about. Then, if in any or every county a Farmers' Institute or Farm- ers' Association, or an Agricultural Society, or a Farmers' Club would provide the land for an illustration station, or illustration field, the organization could be utilized to secure the co-operation of the people most directly interested in promoting the improvement of agriculture. In any county, if the Farmers' Institute would not take it up, perhaps the Agricultural Society or the County Council could get the necessary assistance to provide an illustration station. I think that no property should be purchased by the Government ; and the local superintendent should not be put on salary. SIMPLICITY AND DIRECTNESS OP PURPOSE. I think the station should be of a size between ten acres and twenty acies, neither less nor more. It should be beside a public road and near the market town ; and, if practicable, close by a school-house. That plan would give the people a chance to see whatever was done there. The land itself should be fairly uniform in character. The Farmeis' Institute, or Society, or Farmer's Club, might arrange with the occupier of such a piece of land and choose either him or some other man recognized as a competent good farmer, to conduct a certain amount of work under the directions he would receive. The directions and plans should be made so clear that he could do it and do it exactly without any risk of failure, except from causes beyond human control. The illustration Station need not be permanent in any place. It might be for one or two years in one part of the county and then, after serving its use in the first place, for a few years in another part. No loss would be entailed by quitting such a place. The Government would not own the property ; and there would be no loss of capital by stopping at any time after the station has once served its purpose. The Government should provide a plan for each station that would be definite towar'ds doing something that the locality needs, and doing it in such a way that the farmers would get the advantage and benefit at once. I mean the illustration stations would not be to experiment as to whether a certain crop might or might not grow in that locality. The object would be, in a locality where oats are an important crop, to give illustrations of the best sort of oats and the best way of growing oats; in a locality where carrots grow, to give illustrations of the best kind of carrots — which is one of the crops lamentably mismanaged in many parts of the country. There is not one farmer in a hundred who manages that crop right. It gives excellent cattle feed, excellent horse feed, and is a good root for sheep. Take an illustration of the kind of work that might be done at an illustration sta- tion in varieties of grain : Grow four varieties of oats side by side on plots of one- fourth of an acre each, and never more than four varieties of anv one kind of grain. If you give a farmer an illustration of fifty varieties of grain he will be at a loss which to select. Here is where the experimental farm system would be of value to the country in rather a new sense. After the experimental farms have discovered by scientific experiments and comparisons four of the best varieties of each kind of grain, illustrations of how these grow might be given where the farmers could see 28 JAMES W. ROBEETSOX, COMMISSIOXEE for themselves, and in that way learn from these illustration stations. _ In that way the illustration stations would give farmers a large amount of practical informa- tion. The same may be done with other crops; but I need not enlarge upon them. CULTIVATION OF THE SOIL. Another matter of farm practice that needs improvement is tillage^ or cultiva- tion for the production of the best crops. I am not going to complain that the farmers are behind the age, but I am stating that the average yield of many crops in Canada is rather less than one-half of the yield of the same crops in England and in France, where they have no better soil, and not quite as good a cHinate. While we have virgin soil they have what is called played-out soil. For illustration of methods of tillage, this might be done : Take some suitable variety of Indian corn for fodder purposes — a crop that should be grown much more widely than it is in Canada. Take one-quarter of an acre and sow it broadcast as is still done in some places ; one-quarter of an acre and plant it in rows two feet apart, with the seeding quite thick in each row ; another fourth of an acre with the corn in rows three feet apart and cultivated according to the best known methods; and a fourth one- quarter of an acre with the corn three feet apart, but left uncultivated. Such an illustration of methods of corn-gfowing would result in a general adoption by the farmers of the best methods. Similar illustrations should be given of methods of cultivating other crops. Similar illustrations could be applied to potatoes. You could have a spraying scheme with half an acre of potatoes to show how to keep blight from the leaves and rot from the roots. The farmers would be able to see it and would be able to appreciate the value of the work. AN ESTIMATE OF COSTS. The Department of Agriculture should do one thing more, it should provide for the expense incurred by the local superintendent who would be the occupier of the land, in the extra labour of cultivating and sowing these comparatively small plots. The man would own the crops, but for the extra work he should get some compensation. I estimate that the expense to the Government, for the seeds which would be furnished free, in order to have them of the right sorts, and com- pensation for labour would amount to from $50 to $100 per illustration field accord- ing to the size and work. The man who got the seed free from the Government would not need much compensation for his extra labour. I am confident that that could be done for from $50 to $100 per station. This is not a large expen- diture considering the amount of information that you will be able to give to the farmers. By Mr. Erb : Q. Would that cover the expense the farmer was put to for threshing out the dififerent kinds of grain separately ? A. It would be expected to cover everything. Q. That would be an important part of the work ? A. That is an important part of the work, but I would not say that it is the most important. By Mr. Richardson : Q. He could sell the product ? OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYIXG. 29 A. Yes, and he would be able to sell the seed grain for twice the price of common grain. By Mr. Erb : Q. I meant that it would be the most expensive part of the work. A. Yes, and it is most important to keep the records accurate. But you would find that the man who only read the records would not have as useful an impression as the man who had visited the station. Take the case of the corn crop which I mentioned by way of illustration. The impression from seeing the crops grow would be most lasting and instructive. By Mr. Rogers : Q. I think the best medium for disseminating information about methods and results would be the local papers ? A. Yes. This is a plan which would give us a large amount of volunteer service by the leading farmers of Canada in their own localities. I do not think that $50 would pay the occupier of the land who would be local superintendent for the extra time he would have to give to the work ; but a farmer would give a large measure of volunteer service .free: if he were recouped for his actual ex- penditure. This compensation might be supplemented by local Institutes, and I would prefer that the local Institute should bear some part of the expenditure. By Mr. McGregor : Q. Would he not have to give a lot of time to explaining the work ? A. He would have to give some time to explain it ; but in each case a placard would be put up as they do in France. A simple statement of varieties and me- thods of culture would be on a placard on the roadside so that any one seeing could understand it for himself. INSPECTION. There would need to be a number of travelling inspectors and lecturers who would be in the employ of the Dominion Department of Agriculture. I regard very highly the good work that is being done by the Provincial Farmers' Insti- tutes ; but the tendency of late years in these Institutes is towards a repetition of what has already been said. In many Institutes now you will hear the very same statements about the very same things ; there has been much exchange of opinion and little progress in getting new information from the locality and for the locality. Even the stories to illustrate the points are nearly the same at all Institutes. These Institutes have done good work, and they will do good work in the future if they continue to advance. The illustration stations will furnish new information and new ways of presenting it. A practical farmer with a good knowledge of business methods, and ability to express himself in writing and in public speaking, should be secured as travelling inspector and lecturer for each group of twenty or twenty-five illustration stations. The information which he would gather at these stations during the summer, would furnish most useful material for meetings of farmers held to discuss agriculture during the winter months. Such men would furnish some material for all Institute speakers in the locality which would be valuable to them and which they would pass on to other people. 30 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER By Mr. Douglas : Q. Is it not a fact that the superintendents of our experimental farms do a large part of this work now ? A. They do ; but the superintendent of an experimental farm has not time in the summer by reason of his research work. Q. But he has in the autumn and winter ? A. Yes, he does a great deal of it then. But in Ontario and Quebec and the Maritime provinces one man cannot cover the ground, especially in the Maritime provinces. He could communicate with the Inspectors, give them the benefit of his researches and in that way the information would be passed on through them to the different localities. Q. A great deal of good work is done in the North-west Territories by our superintendent of experimental work along these lines ? A. It is very valuable. I estimate that if lOO illustration stations were in existence in Canada at suitable centres, each would be visited during the year by from 50Q to 1,000 farmers who would examine the work carefully for the purpose of learning all that could be transferred into the management of their own farms. The Dominion Dairy Station at New Perth, P.E.I., was visited by over a thou- sand farmers during the first summer. If from 500 to 1,000 men visited each of the illustration stations that would not interfere with visits to the Experimental Farms of those wlio could reach them. I would like to see- the excursions to the Experimental Farms become larger than they are ; but fifty people will see these illustration stations to one who visits Ottawa, or Brandon, or Indian Head, or Nappan, or Agassiz from outside places. I think the cost for travelling expenses of inspectors and of administration would be just as much per station as the expenditure on the land and the cost of the seed. PROBABLE BENEFITS TO AGRICULTURE. From that work, I do not think I am too sanguine in saying that it is quite reasonable to expect an increase of 25 per cent in the yield of crops in Canada in less than 10 years. If we had an increase of 50 per cent we would still be a long way below other countries that have no better soil or climate. An increase of 25 per cent in the yield of crops in Canada means a great deal. First, you have an annual increase established for all time without further expenditure of time, labour or money. If farmers once get into the methods of cultivating and selecting seeds, it become traditional in the family and you have to spend nothing to keep that up. The value of these Illustration Stations, from an educa- tional standpoint, could not be estimated in dollars and cents. The educational value on the boys and girls will be very considerable. It will lead them to learn and to do many useful things they otherwise never would take up — unless they got started by something like this. The annual value of the field crops of Canada, leaving out cattle and their products, is estimated, by three different methods of arriving at it, variously from $220,000,000 to $270,000,000 a year — taking crops, "ereals and hay, not counting pastures or gardens, but including fruit. Mr. McMillan : — In Ontario where they have a system of statistics the whole field crops in 1896 were in value estimated at $88,000,000 and from an ad- vance report I have, they are estimated in 1897 at something like $99,000,000. Mr. Robertson : — Taking, in the whole of Canada, the acreage under culti- vation, taking the average yield and figuring at market prices, it comes to OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 31 about $270,000,000. If even 10 per cent of an increase in the crops can be got, there is an increase of $27,000,000. In 10 years the increase will be, I think, at least 25 per cent, and that estimate is founded on what we have been able to do in other illustration work. The total cost of these illustration stations will be from $ico to $200 a station ; and in 3 years time there should be at least one illustration stations in every county in Canada, so that people would be able to see it for themselves. As a matter of expenditure and revenue, I have this to say with regard to that part of the country which is being stupendously advertised all over the world at the present time. The Klondike may yield Canada $30,000,000 of gold a year. It may do that by a tremendous expenditure by the people who go in, and a large mitial expenditure by the Government. If you can increase the yield of crops in Canada by 10 per cent you have $30,000,000 a year in round figures for all time from inexhaustible resources. So, as a means of increasing the national wealth uf the country, the Klondike would not be in it with these illustration stations. In all the different walks of life appreciation from one's neighbours is one of the strongest forces making for progress in civilization. If a man be selected by his fellows in a county, by a local organization for a position of honour and re- sponsibility, he will do a great deal in consequence of that. I would recommend gold medals, which mean a tremendous lot to farmers — if you have talked to a man who has won a gold medal with his cattle or other products, you will find him very proud of it, proud to hand it down to his boys — I would recommend a gold medal for every group of illustration stations in each province ; and a bronze medal for every single station where the work was well done. Then I would have one provincial medal for the best kept station in the province. A man would prize that, I warrant, having won it on the merit of work done at his station. Then, there might be one grand medal and diploma each year for the whole Dominion, for the man who did the work on his Illustration Station in the most careful and exact way, presenting the best record, and in every way carrying out his part faithfully. By Mr. Rogers : Q. Who would be the judge? A. Perhaps a report from the inspector and reports of the men in charge of each station could be laid before all the inspectors as a jury of award. The De- partment might give the final award on the rhedals for the provinces, or some other method might be devised. After two or three years there could be joined to that variety of seeds and cultiva- tion work, some illustrative work in regard to maintaining fertiity, not so much by the application of fertilizers, which are costly, as by growing such crops as clover, pease, and other nitrogen collecting plants, and ploughing the roots under. One of the wisest men, at all events one of the most sagacious statesmen in the world, I think, is Lord Salisbury, who is a renowned chemist, and who said lately that the problemn of humanity was how to maintain fertility of soil by making plants or bac- teria gather the elements of it from the air. In that way the illustraion stations could show how plants do gather those and maintain fertility. That could be joined to the other two things, and you would have variety of seeds, tillage and fertility illus- trations. When the farmer saw the actual application of the best methods in these three regards, and saw those methods often, he would become a more competent farmer than if he had not had that opportunity. I would not at first encumber the scheme with any plan for carrying on illustration work with live stock, with the exceptions of poultry and swine. With simple modifications suited to the needs, I 32 MES W. EOBERJiiOX, COMMISSIONER think illustration could be given in live stock management of pigs and poultry — these two only. When you come to carry! on illustration work with cattle and horses, I do not think the illustration stations of which I am presenting an outline to-day could be made serviceable to the country. These two branches of live stock can and would yield large results, and illustrations in their management could be made serviceable to the people. This is the outline of a plan which will yield more material benefit to Canada at this present stage of our history than anything I know of in connection with agricultural movements. It is not new — that is, I did not think out all of it myself, nor did I think of it only last week. It has been grow- ing for several years, waiting for a favourable time in our progress when this step could be taken. It could not have been taken years ago, without some research work from experimental stations behind it ; but now I think that it can be taken successfully and economically, and with great benefit to the Canadian farmers. By Mr. McLennan : Q. Do I understand that one Dominion experimental farm would suffice when these illustration stations have been established? A. I have not considered that matter, nor have I made any statement about it. Mr. McMillan: — Before you introduce illustration stations, I think a part of the experimental farm here should be set apart and conducted entirely as a farm, so that the fanners of Canada may know the exact results that it is possible to obtain from the crops put under cultivation in the different fields. I believe myself that you want to bring the farmers to the experimental farms before you undertake to establish separate experimental stations throughout the country'. This may not be as pleasant a statement to make as the statement to which we have just listened, but the farmers who get their reports from the experiihental farms, do ncvt get that amount of information that they should get. We are put to a large cost in obtaining information and in sending out reports, and I think that these reports should contain records of the amount of labour employed, the amount of manure, and everything else of that kind, so that people would know from the Govern- ment what the Government was in reality doing for the farmers. A portion of the farm should be set apart and carried on in the same manner in which one of the most advanced farmers in the country would carry on his own farm, and the actual results of the expenditure of labour and everything else in each particular field should be given. Mr. Cochrane: — It seems to me that the experimental -farm should be ahead of every farm in this country. I am not complaining of the expenditure on the ex- perimental farm at all, but it appears to me that it should be ahead of any other farm in Canada. We should have some way of showing that they can make the farm pay. I understand that the farm can be made to pay from a scientific point of view, if the science is properly applied. I am willing to pay all necessary money for ex- perimental purposes ; but I think that part of the farm should be run on the lines that Mr. McMillan has suggested so that we may see if, with the application of science, it can be made to pay. I agree with Professor Robertson that there is a good deal in this proposition if you can put it into efifect upon Ijnes that will not arouse prejudices in the minds of the people. I agree, as far as illustration work is concerned, that it will be practical and do a lot of good, but Professor Robertson must take into his serious consideration that it is possible that other things may become mixed up with it that may interfere with its success. It appears to mf- that the farm should be separated. I suggest that, with a practical man at the heafl of it, an effort should be made to run a part of the farm on practical lines and make OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 33 it pay, if possible. There is no experiment now about making butter. You know what strain of cows you require. Mr. Rogers : — What percentage would you want on your capital invested ? Mr. Cochrane: — I am not talking about capital, but I am talking about taking the expenditure upon the experimental farm, charging it up and seeing if we can make that farm pay. It may be all wrong, but it strikes me that we can do it, and if we can it will do more for -my boys than anything that has_been done in Canada. You will show -them by practical illustration that farming can be made to pay. There is no experiment to my mind about making butter. You have the cows and the appliances; and if you can show me that you can take these cows and appli- ances and make them pay, you convince me that I can make that industry pay on my farm. You can take a piece of the experimental farm, set it apart, and show me by your report of results that you can make it pay outside of your experimental plots. I i Mr. Robertson : — I would ask the Committee to bear this in mind, that any discussion of th^ policy or the management of the experimental farms does not touch this plan for establishing illustration stations. Even if a part of these farms were made to pay directly and made to pay handsomely apart from research work, you will remember that in my statement I said that it would be well to keep re- search work apart from illustration work. If part of the experimental farms were made to pay well, that would not take the information of varieties of seeds and methods of culture to the farmers as much as the illustrations in their own locality. I would not like to be considered as exciting any discussion of the plan and policy of the experimental farms. That is an entirely different matter and is not part of the plan for illustration stations in different localities. Mr. Douglas : — I may say, from the North-west standpoint and in the light of the results of the experiments conducted upon the farms in the North-west Terri- tories, that the scheme that is proposed by Professor Robertson is, to my mind, highly commendable. I have noticed that in the neighbourhood of Indian Head and Brandon the farmers are away in advance of people generally. They observe what is taking place upon the experimental farm and they follow out the instruc- tions that are given to them. It seems to me that this scheme is just extending the benefits of our experimental farms to the country generally, and that is what is , needed. I see a great deal in the scheme to commend it. It need not cost much. I have no doubt about the result. I have attended some of those meetings where our superintendent gives a lecture. They are interesting gatherings attended by the farmers, their wives and daughters; and in connection with these they have a pleasant entertainment and some tea, a nice programme and, altogether, the one which I am referring to was one of the finest meetings I attended during last winter. I was present and spoke at the meeting. They really enjoyed themselves. Well, we want new life put into our agricultural societies. And if we could operate through agricultural societies in the North-west and carry out such ideas as submitted here in establishing illustrative plots, it would put new life into these agricultural societies in the North-west. These societies are too weak and the prizes they are able to award too small to pay men to spend time preparing their animals and farm products for exhibit, so that the work of these societies is very largely lost. This scheme would put new life into them. Again, we have a large class of people trying to make a living by farming who have had little experience, many of them are foreigners who have settled down amongst us. I met an English- 34 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER man in the North-west who said to me: "I have now got to the bottom. I have spent $8,000 in experiments, and now I am rising." There was a waste of money and time, and if he could save that by illustrative methods it is the quickest way of reaching results. I see a great deal in the scheme which commends itself to my judgment. Mr. Talbot: — I entirely approve of the idea contained in Mr. Cochrane's re- marlcs. It is really wonderful what questions are asked in the province of Quebec about the experimental farm here. In the course of a single evening they persist in asking you the details of the work of the Experimental Farm at Ottawa, and there is hardly one of them but asks if they have some part of the farm where they prove that these experiments are profitable to the farmers, and I think this is proof of the value of the plan submitted by Professor Robertson here to-day. Mr. Edwards : — I am in accord with this scheme. I do not agree with some of the other members of the Committee with reference to the experimental farm. It is too large. There is a great big farm there. I have thought this matter out, and the views I entertain are very much those put before you to-day by the Pro- fessor. I believe, being an experimental farm, it should be confined to experiments. A very small farm will do for that; and very large experiments have taken place on that farm which have not been very beneficial to Canada. Mind, I do not condemn it, for while much has been done of no utility, much has been done that has utility, and the experimental work has been of the greatest utility. With regard to the farm itself, suppose we could make it scientifically a success and bring it down to that, how many farmers in Canada could see that? In my view, it would be better in the interest of the farmers if there were smaller farms distributed throughout Canada. Professor Robertson's suggestion disposes of the difficulty and puts the thing in a nutshell. If carried out on the lines he has suggested it will do immense good for Canada. I am in perfect accord and sympathy with the scheme, though I think it requires great care in thinking out — evolving a perfect system before put- ting it in motion. I am not in accord in carrying on the experimental farm as a farm ; but I am in perfect accord with reducing its proportions and carrying it on as an experimental farm. Mr. Fisher, Minister of Agriculture : — I am very glad that the Commit- tee has practically decided to further discuss this plan which Professor Robert- son has put before us. I will not say anything about that now, though I hope to do so at the next meeting. Neither will I go into the matter of experi- mental farms, which I think is a little apart from this proposition laid before you to-day. It is better not to mix the two subjects up. I will be very glad to receive hints or suggestions in regard to arrangements at the experimental farm, and if the Committee wishes I will be pleased to say something about that on another occa- sion. OF A GEICUL T URE A ND DA IR TING. 35 Committee Room No. 46, House of ComjlOns, Wednesday, 4th May, 1898. The Committee met at 1 1 o'clock a.m. ; Mr. Bain, Chairman, presiding. The Chairman : — We have the Minister of Agriculture with us this morning, who desires to make a few statements to the Committee concerning the Illustra- tion Stations, the plan of which was explained to the Committee the other day by Professor Robertson. Mr. Fisher, Minister of Agriculture: — Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to make any prolonged statement in regard to this matter, which was so clearly put before the Committee a little while ago by Professor Robertson, but perhaps it is just as well for me to state shortly how that was come to. Ever since I have been in office there have been received applications from various parts of the country for some sort of extension of the Experimental Farm System. These applications, in a general way, have stated that the Branch Farms have been hardly sufficiently within the reach of the ordi- nary farmers of the country ; that while most of the intelligent and best-to-do farmers visit these Branch Farms in their districts — and we know that a great many farmers come to the Central Experimental Farm at Ottawa on excursions arranged for that express purpose — still a great number of those most in need of assistance and lacking the information which can be given to them at these farms, and which they could obtain for themselves there, are not able to see them. Applications of this kind have been received from Prince Edward Island, from Cape Breton, and from New Brunswick, stating that the Nappan Farm was really of no great use to the people in those districts.' Applications have also been received from the province of Quebec, urgent applications from the Lake St. John district away to the north of the city of Quebec, and from the section away in the direction of Gaspe, where the farmers find it very difficult to visit the Central Farm. Urgent applications have also come in from what is known as the new Ontario, that portion of the province lying north and west of Lake Superior ; also from the eastern part of Manitoba, saying that the Brandon "Farm is not easily visited by farmers east of Winnipeg. From Alberta we have been asked to estab- lish some sort of experimental station there, and in British Columbia the people there seem to think that the Agassiz Farm is only of use to certain sections of the people. On the Island of Vancouver especially, they think that a farm on the mainland is not of much use to them. AH this indicates a desire on the part of the people of the country to see for themselves and study the grand work otit- lined by Professor Robertson ih his scheme. We also have had applications for special stations. For instance, the fruit men in southern Ontario have earnestly desired the establishment of fruit experimental stations in that part of the province, which is adapted to fruit growing, about which, they say, they get no information from the Central Farm at Ottawa, the climate and other conditions being so different. In the province of Quebec, around the city of Quebec especially, where they grow varieties of fruit under conditions different from those which exist at Ottawa, the same idea exists. Since the stimulus given last year to the growth 3/2 36 HON. ME. FISHER, MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE. of tobacco, invitations have been received for illustrative stations for those who desire to go into the successful cultivation of that plant, in order that tney migiit see how it can be cultivated and how they mig'ht best undertake that new work. These things have led me to believe that something which would illustrate to the people in the different sections of the country the best system of dealing with certain plants and cultivating certain crops would be advantageous. I might say that long ago, in the inception of the experimental farm system, as is well known to those who were in the House then, I, a member of the then Opposition, strongly supported and endorsed the establishment of the farms. I upheld the hands of Sir John Carling in all the work he then did, work which I believe has redounded to his own credit and been of great service to the people of this country. When the details of that work were being discussed at that time, it seemed to me that it would be very advisable indeed if some effort was made to bring the work home more to the different localities in various parts of the country, and I suggested then, that, instead of establishing large branch farms, something like what Pro- fessor Robertson now suggests should be established in the different counties, that is to say, experiments carried on here at the Central Farm should have been ex- tended, on some cheap and informal plan perhaps, to every county in the Domin- ion. The views I then expressed were not carried out. I have no complaint to make of that, but at the same time after the successful operation of the Central Farm and the branch farms that have been established, I think, perhaps a slight recurrence to that original idea might not be out of place. Now a scheme has been carefully worked out. I do not mean my scheme of that day. It was a little different, being one of experimental stations in each county and not illustra- tion stations. Still, I think, we have reached a point when we may make this step in advance, and supplement the work doiie for the farmers of the country on our experimeiital fartns. I may remind the Committee of the fact, that these pro- posed stations are illustration stations, because I see from some letters which have been received, and from some statements that ha but, as I understand the scheme which Professor Robertson has put forward, I do not see how it can possibly interfere with that work, or in any sense minimize it. We must not forget, myself as Minister for the whole Dominion, the Department dealing with' matters affecting the whole Dominion, or Parliament, or a Committee of Parfiament which deals with matters affecting the whole Dominion, that while this kind of work, I have just alluded to, is being done in Ontario, it is, I befieve, the only work of that kind that is being done in the Dominion of Canada, and that other provinces, at all events, have not even that aid in improving their methods of farming. I would just like to say that I have been studying for a great many years, everything connected with agriculture in our country, partly because it is my own business, and partly because my lot has called me to various public positions in connection with farming. We have made enormous strides in this country in what I may call the industrial or manufacturing side of our business. I believe that the dairy industry in this country especially has made greater strides probably than it has in any other country in the world and we have now reached a high point of excel- lence in it. Our farmers have become eminent stockmen ; we have vastly im- proved in the care of our stock, until quite recently, I regret to say, it has rather run down thkn otherwise, but we have obtained a great degree of excellence in the feeding of our stock and the work in connection with it is very good as a general rule. I do not think, except in certain sections of the country, that quite so much progress has been made in our treatment of the soil and in what may be called the ordinary field operations of the farm. In the course of my travels around Canada, which have been very considerable during a number of years back, the loose methods of dealing with our land, the lack of clean culture, and the extraordinary and very unfortunate mass of weed 'growth which is visible everywhere you go, seemed to strike me as things that it is now time for us to combat and fight against. I think the time has arrived when, in our country, the attention of the farming class must be more drawn to agriculture pure and simple, by which I mean the treatment of their soils and the management of their crops. I do not know any other me- thod which would bring that about any better or any more quickly than by the institution of such a series of illustra,tion stations as Professor Robertson has here outlined, and I feel that perhaps, somewhat, at all events, of a solution of what I have long considered to be a great difficulty in our agriculture in Canada may have been found. I will not detain the Committee longer ; I thought it well and right that this short statement should be made before the Committee undertakes to discuss this matter. I may say that I am simply searching for light ; I am searching for the way in which the agriculture of our country may be improved and benefited. It is a scheme that has occupied the thought of Professor Robert- son for a while; he has worked it up to a certain point. Pts details are not fixed ; it may be that they may have to be modified in the working out of them, but there is one point in connection with the scheme which, I must say, appeals to me very strongly, and it is this, that, if decided upon and if proceeded with, there is no necessity of capital expenditure. A small vote would have to be asked from Parliament for starting it and carrying it out for a year. If we found that it was successful and that it seemed to meet with the approval of the people, if the people showed that they appreciated it by coming to visit these illustration stations, and showing their interest in them, it can be extended and continued; if not it can be dropped and there will be no investment of capital, no property to be left idle on 38 HON. MR. FISHER, MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE. our hands or to be got rid of, and the commencement of the scheme does not require any heavy investment. Professor Robertson has indicated that if the scheme works satisfactorily, it ought perhaps to reach dimensions of having an illustration station in every county in the Dominion, but there is no need of our commencing in that way at all. We can make a modest commencement, see how it works, and ascertain whether it seems to be meeting that demand of the people which, as I pointed out at the commencement of those few remarks, appears to be indicated by the requests made to me as Minister of Agriculture for the establish- ment of other and more numerous branch farms. I would be glad indeed of a thorough, general discussion of the proposal before the Committee, that the Committee should give us the benefit of their criticism, of their views, and of any ideas which might add to the continuation or success of the plan, and if it seems to meet with the approval of the Committee, I should not at all hesitate to take the responsibility of asking Parliament to grant a small sum for carrying out this plan in the season of 1899. Any preparation for it would have to commence this fall. The arrangements necessary to put it into thorough operation would then have to commence, and therefore a vote would have to be asked at the present session of Parliament if it were thought best to go on with the mattr. Thanking you for this opportunity of putting the matter before the Com- mittee I will now leave it open for discussion. Mr. Sproule: — Do I understand that it is contemplated to put one station in every county in the Dominion ? The Minister of Agriculture : — Eventually, but not at present. Mr. Sproule: — Have you any knowledge of the number of counties. The Minister of Agriculture: — There are 213 members of the House of Commons of whom about 50 or 60 represent ridings which are towns and cities, and which could hardly be expected to have such stations as these. I should think that probably 150 or 200 of such stations would eventually be required if the scheme was elaborated to its fullest extent. But I have no idea of anything of the kind as a commencement. Mr. Calvert: — You would not think it would be necessary to have one in each electoral district ? The Minister of Agriculture: — Hardly. Mr. Sproule: — Do I understand that these stations are to give the results of experiments, but are not to do experimental work? What could be done without actual experiments on these farms ? The Minister of Agriculture: — What I mean is this: At the farms we now have perhaps 30 or 40 dififerent varieties of potatoes or grains or roots grow- ing, side by side, to see which do the best. Mr. Sproule : — Is that not experimental work ? The Minister of Agriculture: — Yes, that is what we are doing on the farms. I would not think of doing that at these stations ; I would take perhaps two of the best varieties that we have found by a series of experiments on the farms, show them to the people and let them see the difference between these and the ordinary kinds of grain or roots they grow on their own farms. Mr. Sproule: — You would grow them on these farms and show what could be done with certain grades of grains and roots. I want to get at the distinction between experimental and illustration work, because they become experiments in my judgment, just as soon as you put them into the ground and trv to show what can be done with them. ILL USTRA TION ST A TIONS. 39 Mr. McGregor: — Every farm is experimental to a certain extent. Mr. Meigs : — Would it necessitate buying a farm ? The Minister of Agriculture: — No ; I would make an arrangement with some good farmer, who is noted for being intelligent and being a good workman, that he would carry out certain instructions and directions for the treatment and management of say, ten or twenty acres of his land, and that he should grow certain things that the Department should supply the seed for. He would own the crops and the land. He would simply do the work and the work would be inspected to see that it was properly done. The people of the neighbourhood would see the difference between that kind of work and the common work of the farms in the district. Mr. DuGAS : — Would he be paid ? The Minister of Agriculture: — He would be paid slightly for his time. Mr. Burnett: — If he is a good farmer, is he not doing that all right. The Minister of Agriculture: — If he is doing it on a good system. He may be a good farmer in his own neighbourhood, and yet in many cases not be following the best system. Mr. McMillan: — The best farmers in Ontario are adopting a system of their own. There are farmers who are leading not only their neighbours, but I believe are leading some of your experimental farms. The Minister of Agriculture: — I do not say that we are going to teacli the best farmers of Ontario. There are some sections, however, where the farmers do not know so much and who would like to have an opportunity of seeing in practice the system of the best farmers in Ontario. Mr. Featherston: — ^Where do you find those weedy farms ? The Minister of Agriculture: — Pretty nearly everywhere. Mr. McMillan: — The other day Professor Robertson told us that at these illustration stations four or five varieties of grain would be grown and four or five varieties of roots, and I would like to know would a farmer be expected to keep these separate, thresh them separate and give the results of each? Mr. Robertson: — I think it would be exceedingly useful to have that in- formation, but even if not obtained, the growing of these varieties, side by side, would give much information. The intention is to keep each plot by itself and have a record kept on forms furnished for that purpose so that they could easily be collated afterwards. FARMERS' institutes. Mr. J. W. Robertson, Commissioner of Agriculture and Dairying, was in- vited to address the Committee, and in response proceeded as follows: — If you will allow me a personal explanation, and I am quite anxious to make one I did not intend to be understood as uttering a single word or syllable in any way reflecting upon the good work of the Farmers' Institutes. They are the agencies in Canada which have done most good for the farmers. My own opinion of them is that I do not know anything that the Government has done which has benefited the farmers so much as the work of the Farmers' Institutes, particularly in Ontario. Let me say further I, myself, speaking at the Institutes, find myself bare of information needful to help the farmers who attend them; and I said, in addressing the Committee the other day, that these illustration stations placed 40 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER around the country would furnish the Institute workers with the very information they might give to the farmers; and the Institutes would be more useful than ever. I did not, and do not, hint that these illustration station would displace them anywhere. THE? PROPOSALS IMPROVED BY DISCUSSION. I desire to express my appreciation of the valuable information given by mem- bers of the Committee who have spoken. The scheme, as outlined, was only a skeleton, and the discussion to-day will enable those who are to put these stations into operation to do so with the advantage of that information to make the scheme more effective than it would otherwise be. The suggestions given here to-day are all in the direction of improving the scheme. I have not changed my opinion of the illustration stations being valuable and necessary to. the farmers, although doubtless there are many difficulties to overcome. No Government plan can be- come a Providence to remove all \hh difficulties of climate and markets. The plan may help the farmers to overcome them, and make them more capable in their eflforts; but it cannot remove all obstacles to success. There are difficulties in the nature of droughts or blight, or something else, and every farmer would be more equal to meeting these difficulties incident to his calling, if he receives the assist- ance we propose to give him. The poor farmer is the man we need particularly to help ; and this scheme will help the poor farmer. In going through the country I find that the good farmers are willing to impart the information they have to their neighbours. In my native country the farmers are very secretive and will not readily impart information to their neighbours. For instance, a Scotch farmer will not tell his neighbour his method of making cheese. In Canada the farmers are different; and this scheme will encourage them to exchange information and secure better results than they have hitherto been able to obtain. The part that is most difficult in the whole scheme — and there will be difficulties, and because there are difficulties it needs skilful planning and capable administration — the great difficulty would be to find the right class of men to carry on the work. The great difficulty, in most cases, is, not to make a plan, but to find men of the spirit and ability neces- sary to successfully carry out the plan that is made. I do not fear that we shall not find a sufficient number of men to carry out this idea. I do not know a county in Canada where there are not ten men, each doing so well in methods of agriculture, that if all farmers of Canada did as well, the improvement would be 25 per cent on next year's crops, or about $67,000,000 of increase in Canada's yield of farm pro- ducts. I believe that we have men patriotic enough to undertake this work and give their time and service without apparently being paid for all the volunteer work they do. I want to make another point from the discussion to-day. It would not be the best plan to take varieties of seeds for illustration at these stations wholly from the Experimental Farms. The inspector for the locality would learn from the farmers of that locality the kinds of grain or roots that do best with them ; and these varieties might be dififerent from those that have given the best returns at the experimental farms. Those found suited to the locality would then be given illus- tration under their correct names for service of the people of the county. SELECTION OP LOCATION FOR ILLUSTRATION STATIONS. Another point i4 the selection of places for such illustration stations. That would doubtless have to be carried out after full information of each locality was obtained. The proposal was that the fields, first of all, should be on the roadside. OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 41 The experimental plots which are managed by the Ontario Experimental Union are not necessarily on the roadside. That is another department of the work of the province that is producing the most admirable results for the farmers; but it is devoted chiefly to experiments and not to illustrations. These stations should necessarily be near a market town or a central place. To some extent that would obviate the difficulty which has been pointed out and which might be a serious one if the farmer had to entertain at his table all those who come to visit the illustration stations. Most of us know that the farmers are not forgetful to entertain strangers ; but this is a characteristic virtue that should not cause them to be imposed on. You are embarrassed in the country by being pressed at every place you stop at to stay for a meal. I do not think that- the danger which has been indicated will be met with, if these plots are near a town where people can get their meals at a hotel and get their horses put up. I think that each station should' be visited at least once a month by the inspector to see that the whole plan in that locality was being carried out evenly.. .Twice a year the visit from the inspector could, and should, be made known beforehand to the farmers in the locality. A Farmers' Institute meeting held in the field in the summer time would give the farmers more informa- tion than a two-day meeting in a hall, although in saying that, I do not wish to be understood as saying a word in disparagement of meetings in i. hall. Mr. McGregor: — ^That is if the crop is good. Mr. Robertson: — Well, if the crop were poor it might show wrong vai-iety of seed or a wrong system of culture. It would be an object lesson for those who saw it. The next thing I wish to say is that it was suggested that the plots should be near the school-houses.. I know the predatory habits of boys; but you will impart more valuable information to country boys by showing them things growing, when they are not taken there on purpose, than you will by taking them once a month to the plots. In France ,where they have made great progress in agriculture — and I say this to relieve members of the Committee from the idea that these stations might be too numerous to be useful — in France they have over 4,000 example plots, at a cost of $60 each, paid by the Government. They are for work somewhat like this, and they are put near the school-houses in order that the children may see the crops growing. By and by, in this country, I expect to see illustration stations close to the school- houses, and part of the school system so that the boys and girls, as they grow up, will see the reality of things and know them by something more than mere names. We will come to that in Canada. Placards will be put up at these stations so that not only he who runs, but he who drives by, may read and be instructed. The cost will vary according to the amount of work undertaken; and I hold that for every dollar spent in work that gives the farmers practical information which they can turn to account, the country will gain $100 in return. I do not think this countr}' can spend money more wisely than by giving farmers the kind of information they can use in a way they are will- ing to receive it. Suppose this plan, when fully applied, should cost $30,000 annually. The vote for "Dairying Service" has been $30,000 for several years; and in a few more years, as soon as the service in the North-west Territories, and perhaps one other district, is finished, there will be no further need of Government dairy stations in Canada, where illustration lessons have been given. When the Dominion Government has entirely gone out of that after having accomplished the work of development, leaving the stations to be carried on by others, that ex- penditure can be devoted to improvements in crop culture and tillage, thus carrying 42 , JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER forward on these lines the educational work so necessary to the progress and devel- opment of agriculture. I desire to repeat that some of the considerations presented this morning by members of the Committee will help materially in furnishing ideas for the more efficient carrying out of the plan proposed. Mr. Fisher, Minister of Agriculture: — I want to say two things: One is, that I regret to hear the intimation that apparently this scheme was one which was •aimed at or was intended, or was in any way connected with the depreciation of Institute work. I think that Professor Robertson has already explained his own views in regard to that matter, and I want to say that the Institute work is some- thing which I have been most enthusiastic about. I have been holding up to ihe local Government of Quebec the Institute work of the province of Ontario, and be- seeching and insisting that they should adopt such means of agricultural advance- ment in Quebec. Since I have been Minister of Agriculture here I have come into contact with the local Governments of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, and I have been urging this matter constantly upon them, and they are taking steps ^o carry it out. There is no idea in any way whatever of depre- ciating the Institute work. The Institute work in Ontario has been one of the glories of that province, and the work which has contributed more than any other thing to the splendid agricultural position of Ontario to-day. The other thing I wish to say, is, that I do not want members of the Com- mittee to go away with the impression that I am suggesting an immediate expendi- ture of $30,000 a year. Dr. Sproule seemed to hit upon that as a likelihood. It is possible, in the event of the idea being successful and profitable, that it may develop into an expenditure of $30,000 a year, but the idea I had in my own mind was a modest one in comparison .with that. I thought the other day, when talking the matter over, that, as Professor Robertson suggested, if we started on a consider- able scale, $10,000 would be all we would think of asking this year, but if we started on a more modest scale, perhaps $5,000 would be sufficient. It would only be after we had found it profitable and successful that any further sum would be asked. Mr. Bell (Pictou): — These illustration stations would be distributed amongst the diiiferent provinces ? The Minister of Agriculture: — Oh, certainly, whether they were very great in number or not they would be distributed in those parts of the country in which it would seem they would do the most good. Mr. Calvert: — Those are the parts farthest away from the experimental farms? The Minister of Agriculture: — They should be established first, at all events, where there seems to be the greatest need of them. OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING, 43 CoMMTiTEE Room No. 46, House of Commons, Wednesday, 27th April, 1898. The Select Standing Committee on Agriculture and Colonization met this day at II o'clock a.ra.; Mr. Bain, Chairman, presiding. Mr. James W. Robertson, Commissioner of Agriculture and Dairying, ad- dressed the Committee as follows: — I have to report a. little upon the TRIAL SHIPMENTS OF FRUIT from Grimsby. These were not apples, but I might be permitted to make two or three remarks in regard to apples. On the whole, in England, I did not find more than two or three per cent of the apples, not honestly packed ; I mean by that, barrels that are faced by fine apples and filled witl^" poor ones. There has been a large percentage of our apples landed in Liverpool in a damaged condition, by heating on the voyage, or otherwise, but I do not think that more than two or three per cent were packed dishonestly; but if you listen to all that the fruit buyers in England say, they will tell you all the faults in connection with packing and with the apples, and not any of the good things. The tendency to find fault is made too conspicuous. To show you the standing of our apples in England, I need only say that the prices last year of 20 shillings and 25 shillings a barrel were proof that the apples were good — good right through in most cases. In Great Britain, in the fruit trade perhaps more than other trades, the value depends upon everything being in a faultless condition, because if that is not the case the retail dealer runs more risks than he is willing to take, and he wants bar- gains. That is the reason why tender fruits brought such low prices in England last year. The retail dealers thought they ran risks and wanted to purchase at bargains; and think they got them. At the end of the season they wanted more similar fruit because it paid them handsomely. That is one of the results of our experi- mental shipments. Fruit in Great Britain sells at high prices, if it is in good con- dition; and some classes of fruit in doubtful condition will fetch ruinous prices. The value is determined by three things : first', keeping quality, then the appearance, and then the flavour. I do not think that fpr a long time to come the English buyer will care to discriminate much between therilavours of the diflferent varieties of peaches. They will look to their appearance and condition. The fruit must look nice, be sound and have a good flavour. In sending peaches, tomatoes, pears and grapes, the first consideration is the packing. The package must be suitable for safe carriage. The Grimsby fruit growers thought that the package must not only be safe but suitable for a showy appearance in retail shops in England as well. They bought 2,000 cases made for safe carriage and strong to the extent that every man who tried to open them was swearing mad, with his fingers torn. The very strong package was one of the first points raised against them in England. The pack- age should be of a shape for convenient handling, and there is no one kind of pack- age suitable for all kinds of fruits. The package we shall use this year and used suc- cessfully last year was a good deal like that fexhibiting a box to the Committee) for peaches and pears carrying about 25 pounds of fruit, according to size, and packed from the side so as to escape the need for facing a large surface. If you 44 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER face a comparatively large surface of tender fruits anH cover so as to hold them tight, it will squeeze and damage some. If you pack from the side you face a comparatively small surface, and the spring of the side piece will hold the fruit firmly in position. Last year shippers used boxes with four trays deep inside; and the movement during transit ground the surface of the peaches and pears. Fruit should be taken over wrapped in paper and packed in from the side. Each package of warm fruit, when filled, becomes a slow burning stove. Each individual fruit in ripening consumes oxygen, and generates heat. If you were to fill a cellar with apples and close it up, and go back in two or three days you would find that the fruit had raised the temperature from 5 to 1 5 degrees, by generation of heat in the ripening. In cooling fruit, if the package be close, the fruit in the middle will generate so much heat that it will take a week to cool a package twice as big as this box in a cold storage room; whereas, if you have provision for ventilation it is cooled rapidly and evenly, and the generation of heat is prevented. In one' trial shipment last year we put fruit into the cold storage warehouse at Montreal where the temperature was held at 36° Fahr., and after forty-eight hours the fruit in the middle of the packages was quite warm, and still generating heat. Cold storage, in such a case, is like throwing water on the outside of a building on fire where there is plenty of fuel in the middle of the building which is keeping up enough heat to counteract the water on the outside. There is need for having the package provided with thorough ventilation, with room for the escape of hot air from the top. That we learned thoroughly last year by our trial shipments. By Mr. McMillan r Q. Would apple barrels be better if they were bored on the top so that the warm air would be allowed to escape? A. Certainly; either that or .using the packages constructed such as this one I have been describing, or by having a little shaving taken ofi each stave. There is no safety for apples on board ship in the autumn unless that is done. By Mr. MacLaren : Q. Even that has not been done? A. No, and that is why as many as 35 per cent of the apples sent over to Great Britain have been reported slack or wet, even when well packed, because of the generation of heat. THE PACKING OF FRUIT. I come next to say something about the packing of fruit — not merely the package, but the packing of the fruit. For tender fruit to be carried a long dis- tance, it is very important that it should be plucked and packed in a right condi- tion of ripeness, and that can be learned only by experience. In ]-)icking peaches in warm weather a common practice seems to be to go around and feel the fruit and leave the ones that do not yield a little bit when pressed. I held a few boxes of peaches in cold storagel for two months after the others were shipped, and I found that those which had decayed had decayed at the places where they had apparently been pressed. There is no likelihood nf having fruit treated in that way landed in Great Britain in good condition, no matter how good the conveniences for carriage may be. Then iq Canada there is no accommodation for cooling peaches before they are wrapped. In California the peaches are cooled before they are wrapped, while in Canada they have been wrapped immediately after they have been taken from the orchard while in a warm condition. The wrapping keeps the OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 45 peaches from being cooled and generates! heat very quickly. In California they have cold storage rooms at the orchards, and the fruit is cooled before it is packed. So far, in Canada, we have been packing fruit warm and 'trying to cool it after- wards, and have found it much more difficult. In packing there should be just as little handling as possible. Last year wq had the leading fruit growers in the Niagara district making shipments. I found that peaches were, in most cases, handled five or six times before they were put into the cases. You can understand how the handling of delicate fruit in a warm condition increases the risk of injury. Fruit should be cooled as soon as possible after it is picked, and it should be picked firm, because that is the safer way to keep it until it gets to England, not in a condition that is called " sleepy," but in a condition so green that the fruit will not be fit to eat for several days. JThat will fetch twice the price of fruit that is in con- dition to go on the table immediately after leaving the ship. CAREFUL GRADING. Great care should be exercised in selecting the specimens of fruit in order that none may be sent from Canada that are not quite sound, of good shape, and of the right size. I do not hint that the farmer should waste anything, but I think that he should keep the inferior kind of fruit by itself. By Mr. Rutherford : Q. Send it to the North-west ? A. It makes very good fruit for evaporating. By separating the grades of fruit there will be more money obtained for the fruit that is sent to Great Britain, and then the farmer may make what he can out of the smaller fruit in some other way. He will really make more money by the separation. Another result will be that the individual shipper in Canada will gain in reputation on the British market, and his brand will be waited for and bid for in the markets. In the markets in Great Britain men wait for a certain brand and they would give four shillings a barrel more upon the brand alone although the fruit might not be any better. In the fruit trade, which more than any other is risky, a retailer will buy only what he can handle with the least risk. I have one word only to say in regard to the size of the fruit. Every kind of fruit that goes to Great Britain from Canada should be of the largest size we can send, and reasonably uniform. The grading of, apples in two sizes will make the whole lot worth more money. An exception to this statement is tomatoes, because in this class of fruit, the large sizes bring the low prices. Large tomatoes will sell for smaller prices than small tomatoes. All the communications and advices that we sent out last year were to send small-sized tomatoes to Great Britain. By Mr. Bergeron : Q. Why is that ? A. We found by actual test that of the tomatoes marketed in equally good condition and from the same place the small size netted at Grimsby one-third more than the large ones. The small size sold at 9s. 4d. per case, and from the same ship tomatoes of a large size sold for 6s. 8d. per case, or nearly one-third less in England, and there were the same freight charges across the Atlantic. Q. Was the taste of the two sizes the same ? A. They appear to have the same taste, but the small size is wanted. 46 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER By Mr. Featherston : Q. In apples the i^edium-sized Spies would not be better than large ones, would they ? A. I have found a preference for large apples, pears and peaches. But when I say large pears I do not mean those of monstrous sizes. But the larger you get the Bartlett or the Buerre D'Anjou the better. QUANTITIES IN TRIAL SHIPMENTS. That brings me to speak of the quantity of fruit we sent in these trial ship- ments. We sent last year 1,400 cases of peaches early in the trial shipment season, 1,696 cases of pears, 638 cases of tomatoes, 47 cases of apples, 55 cases of plums, 3 cases of quinces and 2,700 cases of grapes. By Mr. Bergeron : Q. That is not the whole exportation of fruit for Canada during the season ? A. That is only the fruit that was sent over as trial shipments to test the methods of carrying these tender fruits. The shipments comprised pears, peaches, tomatoes, apples, plums, quinces and grapes. By Mr. Featherston : Q. What varieties of apples did you ship in crates ? A. The Duchess, the Mackintosh Red, and St. Lawrence, early ripening fall apples. Q. Was there any Duchess ? A. They were scarce last year. Of these shipments there were three ship- ments to Glasgow, three to Liverpool and four to London. The object was to follow one shipment with another in two weeks, so that the men who got a bargain the first time would pay better prices the next time. The first shipments wei-e chiefly peaches and pears, and later on grapes. Now, there were pretty heavy losses on the shipments of fruit for these reasons. The loss on peaches and pears was due to two things, unsuitable packages, and want of experience of the cold storage for tender fruits on the ships. When we got a knowledge of these the season for shipping those two kinds of fruit was nearly past. GRAPES DID NOT SUIT. Mr. Crandall mentioned shipments of grapes which arrived in bad condition. A few did; not more than 50 packages out of the 2,760 packages shipped. =Some shippers said : " Let us send a few cases in the first shipment to see how they will carry." These grapes were pulled before they were ripe and they fell off the stems. Grapes are not like pears, which ripen better off than on the stem. These grapes the British merchants told us, they did not want as the people did not like the taste. Some of them were put on the table in a hotel and the Americans and Canadians present ate them readily, while the others would take a couple of grapes and spit them out. But by the Saturday they were cleaning the plates off. An Englishman coming out here does not like the taste of our grapes at first, but he does after he has been here a short time. It is like the taste for tomatoes ; you have to cultivate it. In response to strong representations from fruit growers the Government sent over grapes to see whether we could create a good market. I think that should be done this year again even if we have to give away some grapes. It is good for the country, as it gives the people an object lesson of our! climate and what our horticultural and agricultural resources are. OF AORICULTUBE AND DAIRYING. 47 AGREEMENT WITH THE SHIPPERS. The arrangement with the shippers was that the Depai Iment would guarantee the wholesale price at Grimsby and take the risk, as the si lippers were not ready to take it. At Glasgow, for instance, we made arrangements to distribute some grapes to Newcastle, Carlisle, and other North of England cities, so that next year we would know whether there was any market there. The loss was great* because the grapes were practically given away. I don't think that was a total loss to the country ; it was a loss on the shipments, but it made a beginning for a business which may grow to large proportions. More grapes are grown than we have a market for here, and we can well afiford to give some of them away if thereby we can create a market for future use. It already has resulted in this, that one large maker of jellies, and you know that some of these businesses are very large indeed in the old country, has made inquiries if he could get large quantities of grapes from Canada. Any outlet in that way would be good for the country. The next thing I would like to put before the Committee is a brief statement of the returns of the several kinds of fruit that were landed in good condition, together with the cost of shipping them. The statements are as follows : — • Sales of some Fruit by Garcia, Jacobs & Co., London, England. PEACHES. Shipper. Geo. Smith C. W. VanUuzer , . L. Woolverton . . . Geo. Smith L. Woolverton D. J. McKinnon. . C. W. VanDuzer. W. J. Andrews L. Woolverton E. J. Woolverton . . D. J. MoKinnon. L. L. Hagar D. J. McKinnon . . . A. H. Pettit & Son 21 7 4 10 Price Realized. s. d. 1.0 4 12 14 12 $ cts. 3 68 2 88 3 36 2 88 Expenses per Case. $ cts. 88 84 87 84 Net Preoeeds per Case. % cts. 2 80 2 04 2 49 2 04 Sis Date of Sales. Oct. 15 ■1 15 M 15 „ 15' PEARS. 6 16 3 84 89 2 £5 5 5 14 3 36 87 2 49 5 3 12 2 88 84 2 04 5 Oct. 15 15 15 TOMATOES. 7 9 4 2 24 81 1 43 8 3 9 4 2 24 81 1 43 8 6 6 8 1 60 78 82 8 Oct. 22 22 22 GRAPES. 5 4 96 74 22 8 14 3 8 88 74 14 8 12 3 6 84 74 10 5 Oct. 22 22 15 PLUMS. 15 6 3 72 89 2 83 5 Oct. 15 48 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER Sales of some Fruit by Thomas Russell, Glasgow. PEACHES. Shipper. L. L. Hagar A. H. Pettit & Son . L. L. Hagar SO S5 13 6 13 Price Realized. 4 4 3 () 8 ots. 06 96 84 Expanses per Case. 8 cts. 67 07 67 Net Proceeds per Case. S cts, 29 29 17 Sod Date of Sales. Oct. 15 „ 15 „ 15 PEARS. E. J. Woolverton . . 8 2 7 4 3 8 6 8 3 9 15 11 2 04 1 98 2 16 3 60 2 64 74 74 74 82 76 1 30 1 24 1 42 2 78 1 88 6 6 10 10 10 Oct. 15 W. J. Andrews E. J. Woolverton W. J. Andrews „ 15 Nov. 2 2 L. Woolverton 2 TOMATOES. C. W. VanDuzer 9 2 5 5 2 5 4 1 1 24 1 20 98 67 67 67 57 53 31 6 6 3 Oct. 15 L. Woolverton C. W. VanDuzer „ 15 Sept. 27 GRAPES. L. L. Hagar . . .». D. J. McKinnon L. L. Hagar . . . 2 3 9 90 67 23 10 8 3 72 67 05 10 88 3 72 67 05 10 Nov. 2 2 The Committee will bear in mind that I am not giving the averages because a good deal of the first shipments landed were over-ripe before the people knew what could be done. You will notice that 2i cases of peaches shipped by George Smith, sold in one lot for 15s. 4d. a case, each case holding about 45 to 50 pounds. This was equivalent to $3.68. The actual expenses per case taking, were 88 cents, so that the net proceeds at Grimsby were $2.80 per case. From L. Woolverton four cases were sold at 14s., or $2.49 net at Grimsby. Another lot from C. W. Van Duzer sold for 12s. a case, netting $2.04 at Grimsby. Another lot from George Smith, ten cases sold at 12s., netting $2.04. The peaches that went to Glasgow did not sell so well, because there were very few peaches sent to Glasgow, the shipments there were chiefly pears and grapes. By Mr. Parmalee : Q. What was the cause of the fluctuation ? A. It was a difference in the condition. I had these sales followed to some extent by Mr. Crandall, and through some commercial connections I have on the other side I received a report from the retailers. These said that the Canadian fruits pleased their customers well, and said they could sell large quantities if they got them in good condition. One object of my going over to England th'.s summer is to make further arrangements in this direction. OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 49" By Mr. Feather ston :. Q. You got good prices for peaches ? A. Yes, for some of them. By Mr. McMullen : Q. Did you use boxes for them ? A. The small packages, like this one I have snown you ; most of the pack- ages last year were too large. There is no occasion for display or home-carrying packages except for grapes. For these we use four small veneer boxes with handles and put them inside a case like this. We will have these this year. The case with trays inside last year cost 46 cents a case ; that was the best price thev could be got for, the shippers got them themselves, although with the cost guar- anteed by the Department. These cases which we have ordered for this year are better every way, and cost 6j^ cents each. They hold about half the quantity of those used last year. By Mr. Cochrane : Q. That is for peaches ? A. For peaches, pears, and also tomatoes. We have packages of different depths in accordance with the kind of fruit. The intention being to have as nearly as possible three layers of fruit in each case, packed from the side. In the case of pears you will obsrve one lot of these cases sold for 16 shillings, that being $2.95 net at Grimsby, Ont. Another lot brought 14 shillings, netting $2.49. Then another brought 12 shillings, netting $2.04. Q. How much would these packages be in weight ? A. About 45 or 50 pounds. The weight was not ascertained in every case. The fruits were in trays, and the numbers were stencilled on the ends. Generally there were from 150 to' 200 in each. I could not find that one variety of pears was preferred to another. The great thing which applies to these is to have them in good condition, of fine keeping quality, attractive appearance and of good flavour. That appears to be the order they value the qualities in. Tomatoes sold for 9s. 4d., netting $1.43 at Grimsby, while the large varieties sold for 6s. 8d., netting 82 cents at Grimsby. The difference between these two kinds was entirely owing to the size of the tomato without any regard to the quality or flavour. These are vefy handsome prices, and pay well, because that was getting at Grimsby $1.43 for rather less than a bushel. Growers can provide them for 50 cents a bushel at a profit. Mr. Pettet: — They sell them for 25 cents. Mr. Robertson: — Now, as to plums, some sold at 15s. 6d., netting $2.83 at Grimsby. EXISTING COMMERCIAL AGENCIES TO BE USED. For these perishable fruits there seems to be a capital opening, now that we have discovered the best method of packing and shipping. I think we can this year further improve the methods of shipping and of selling. In sending fruit from Canada to England it does not seem advisable to antagonize any of the wholesale people who handle our fruits and those df other countries. If we open up new channels in direct opposition to them we would meet them at everv 50 JAMES W. ROBERTSOX, COMMISSIONER point in such a way as to hinder us from getting the best class of customers. The fruit is sold in auction markets and in some cases the ring of buyers is very small. These buyers send it to the outside towns to supply the merchants there, and some of them are getting rich, almost as rich as those who handle our Canadian cattle. There are no business men who have made so much money in the last few years as those who have stood between the exporters of our cattle and the consumers of beef in England. I heard lately of men in it who in a few years have rolled up fortunes. All we have to do to improve the channels for the sale of our fruit is to get some of the fruit merchants in the surrounding towns to come to the auction sales and buy direct, and if they do that we can get full value. This year we hope to have the sales on certain days even if the fruit has to be held in cold storage for a few days. If some 50 or 60 of these merchants come to the sales then we will have better competition in tlie bidding and a largely increased market We do not want to ignore the existing channels of trade, and if we help to widen them and the British merchants fight it out between themselves we can get better prices. By Mr. MacLaren : Q. How about the system here ? Do you not think there could be an im- proved method of handling the fruit ? Let the farmers pick it themselves at prices agreed beforehand ; not have to fight for a price afterwards ? A. There is this to say about that, that unless the farmer be a special grower of fruit he has neither the time nor the conveniences to sort and pack well. If the dealers will adopt better methods of sorting, the fanner will get more by allowing them to do the picking. Take pears, for instance. A man not accus- tomed to handling them will not put them up in the best shape for the English market. The California fruit merchants have skilled men in their packing houses. By Mr. Rutherford : Q. Up in our country, our fruit supply comes from California and it seems a strange thing that fruit should go from Ontario over to England and that just on account of the ignorance of packing here our fruit in the west should come from California ? SUPPLYING MANITOBA. A. We are urging upon the railway companies to have a fast service for cooled fruit from Ontario to Manitoba. The fruit growers, at St. Catharines have 800 tons of ice put up and with a good railway service should get the fruit into the western markets in good shape. By Mr. Bain : Q. How do the plums stand ? A. Very well, indeed. Some of them sold at 15s. 6d. I think hitherto, also, we have had very serious difficulty because of the want of cold storage at certain points and the want of a cold storage service on the railways. The fruit dealers at Winnipeg give a decided preference to the California fruit because there is less risk with it. ' With the Ontario fruit they say " we have often one-half bad, and we do not want that." Now that the cold storage system has been established and there is a reasonably fast train service we should get it out there in good shape. OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYINO. 51 By Mr. Rogers : Q. Is their fruit as good as ours ? A. The California fruit ig tough in fibre and not nearly so tender as ours nor so fine in flavour. Last year the average number of days in transit from Grimsby to the port in Great Britain was 20 days, or, to be exact, 19 -.9 days. That is a great deal too long. The California fruit was landed there in South- ampton in less than 12 days, while oursl took an average of not less than 20 days from Grimsby to the same place. We expect this year to reduce that by at least five days so as to have a fourteen days' service from Grimsby to the other side ; and with the improvements made in the cold storage service, after seeing the needs of the business last year, I am confident from the beginning to end we can send over peaches, pears and tomatoes in good condition so as to get the highest price going there. NO MARKET YET FOR GRAPES. I would recommend the sending of some grapes. I do not see any prospect of getting full value out of. them yet. I will give you an illustration of how difficult it is to sell Canadian grapes in England. There is in Manchester a large co-operative society that handles about £24,000,000 worth of stuff annually for its members. When I was there I met the committee. My main business with them was to induce the committee and buyers to use more Canadian flour, bacon, butter and cheese. They handle a great deal now. I said to them : If you will arrange to receive one or two carloads of choice grapes and will give us what money they will fetch, we will send them. They politely told me that they did not wish to have anything to d owith grapes, that they could not handle them. By Mr. Featherston : Q. Is there not a good deal of rivalry between that co-operative association and others ? A. Yes ; but the Wholesale Co-operative Society do a large trade. They are one of our best customers., Their turnover reaches about $120,000,000 a year. I offered this concern practically two carloads of choice grapes, to give us what they would fetch, in order to introduce them to their customers, and the result was as I have stated to you. By Mr. Semple : Q. Would it not be unnecessary to ship these grapes over there merely in order to cultivate the taste of the British people ? A. Our grape growers cannot in many cases get two cents a pound for their grapes, and very soon they will not get even that unless there is another opening. If by sending a few carloads of them to England we could create a de- mand for them over there, such as has grown for tomatoes, I think it would be a capital investment. A few years ago you could not get tomatoes in the market, and now there is a large trade. Mr. Featherston: — A great many of our grapes are sold here for $20 and $25 a ton. Mr. Roberston: — I dare say, and let me say this, while on the subject of grapes — I would not mention it otherwise — that I think there is a promising opening for grape juice, unfermented, to drink with such things as Radnor Water or ApoUinaris Water. No drink in warm weather is, in my opinion, more refresh- 52 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, C0M2IIS8I0^ER ing or so soothing as that. I have been trying to get our grape growers to go into it, as they have done to a considerable extent in California. DAIRY LEGISLATION. Mr. Robertson was invited by the Committee to make a statement in regard to Bill No. 83, introduced by Mr. Parmalee, intituled "An Act to prohibit im- proper speculation in the sale of' butter and cheese," referred by the House of Commons to the Committee on Agriculture. (For copy of Bill here iiteired to, cide Appendix to ihis r port.) Mr. Robertson said: — Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen: In offering some evidence on the existing conditions of the cheese and butter business as this Bill may affect it, I would like to say a few words in regard to the dairy legislation that has been enacted. I think every one will assent to this proposition that ail laws relating to commerce should aim at preventing fraud ; and in the second place all such laws should aim to protect the public interest even if no fraud be intended. Whether dealing in futures be fraudulent or otherwise, if it injures the public interest I think it is a fit subject for such legislation as will prevent that. In 1893 the Dairy Products Act was passed to meet an existing danger. At that time a United States concern was going to make filled cheese in Canada and a law was promptly put on a statute-book prohibiting that practice in this country. I say that because it is not best to put any laws on the statute-book in reference to dairying to meet purely theoretical evils ; but when you meet an actual evil that is the time for action. At that time there was a good deal of fraudulent branding of the word " Canada " on United States cheese going through Montreal. The fact that that was very often done was verified by an actual examination of the goods, and a law was enacted to prohibit the branding of the word " Canada " or " Cana- dian " on any cheese not made in this country. This has helped the dairy business a great deal. The same law required that the name of the country of origin should be branded on all cheese coming into Canada, and now we keep an inspector in Montreal to see that the brand of the United States is on all cheese from that country going out from Montreal. This has all been useful although some ob- jected at the time, fearing that it would be prejudicial to the cheese trade. The Dairy Act of 1897 went a little farther and made provision for the regis- tration of cheese factories and creameries. There were before the Committee on Agriculture and Colonization at that time, persons who expressed different opin- ions as to the need of that legislation. In the brief time that the law has been in force over 600 applications have been received at the Department and certifi- cates have been issued to that number of cheese factories and creameries who want registration numbers in order to presei-ve the identity of their goods. That law provides penalties for misrepresenting the dates when cheese is made. The practice that was carried on to some extent in Montreal, chiefly, by which cheese made in August would be branded " September " or sold as the finest " Septem- bers " was doing our trade some harm in Great Britain. That had the effect of making the English importer rather suspicious of the superior quality of Septem- ber cheese and entailed a good deal of annoyance and some litigation. The law further required the branding of the word " Canada " or " Canadian " on all cheese made in Canada for export before it left the factory. That law is in force this year so that cheese from Canada will have the word " Canada " or " Canadian " branded on it. That will make it difficult for our cheese to be sold as the best English or Scotch or the best anything else except Canadian. I think you will agree with me after what I have said in this connection that that legislation was all very necessary and all very useful. OF AGRICULTURE AXD DAIRYIXG. 53 By Mr. Rogers : Q. Does it provide for compulsory registration ? A. Not for compulsory registration. That is optional, but it provides icr the compulsory branding of " Canada " or " Canadian " and the total prohibition of misrepresentation of dates. By Mr. MacLaren ; Q. They have all to brand the proper date ? A. Yes, if any date. DIFFICULTIES OF ENFORCEMENT. Some men in every business are usually reluctant to admit the need for any legislation that touches it. The remark of old John Bright, when he said that there were people who objected to the ten commandments as harassing legislation, because they ran across their own practices too often, might be true of some of those in the cheese trade. The only serious objection raised against a Bill like this from any quarter has been that it will be difficult of enforcement. The leaders of humanity have been trying for over 3,000 years to enforce the ten commandments, with only partial success, but still they have been of benefit to the world. To some extent it would be the same with this Bill. All bargain making of the people should be touched by legislation in a very careful way. That does not mean timidly ; it means cautiously but not in a cowardly way. There are too many of us frightened from doing things because people say in awe-stricken tones we should be careful. In a case like this to be careful means to be courageous and to put a wrong thing down. People say that the sale of " futures " is common in Chicago and New York ; and perhaps that is an intimation that it should not be put down in Canada; on the other hand the fact that a practice is common in Chicago need not commend it to Canada. Bargain making is commerce, — ^bargaining how things shall be exchanged, and exchanging them. There is no other commerce except bargain-making for, and the exchange of things. I can make a bargain with a man that if a certain horse does not win a race I will pay him $10 ; and perhaps I have a perfect right to do so, but that is not commerce. Legislation that would touch and prevent that would not touch commerce, which deals only with the handling of things and bargain making in connection with them. In commerce there are three classes, producers, middlemen, and consumers. By Mr. Sproule : ^ Q. Have you considered the question whether it would not be ultra vires of Parliament to pass a law that would interfere with the right of contract, that is evidently the duty of the provinces ? A. I would not express an opinion beyond saying that I understand that any legislation dealing with commerce which is interprovincial and extra-provincial would be competent for the Parliament of Canada. Q. But practically you make a contract to sell or deliver so and so? A. I am not prepared to express an opinion of any value on that. If the provinces have need of it and the provincial legislatures are the proper authorities, let us press the matter there. The point is, not to allow a good thing to be left undone if it can be done ; but to find out who should do it and have it done even if there are difficulties in the way. 54 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER By Mr. Douglas : Q. The matter has been taken up in England ? A. Yes. Q. And also in the United States ? A. With only a limited amount of success there. By Mr. Talbot : Q. What is the effect on the cheese trade by selling short ? A. I am coming to that. The Chairman: — Would not the Abbott Bill to suppress bncket-shoixs liave the same effect ? Mr. Sproule: — The one thing is gambling in stocks, but this is distinct from that. The Chairman: — The one is gambling in stocks, while this is gambling in cheese. Mr. Sproule: — It appears to me it would be important to have a competent authority to express an opinion on the Bill.. I draw a distinction that so long as gambling is practiced we have a right to interfere, but so long as the sale cf futures is practiced it is a matter for the provinces. The Chairman: — Sir John Abbott introduced legislation with a view to suppress futures in other hues, what is popularly known as bucket-shops, and I was suggesting to Mr. Sproule that this was the same line in dairy products, and possibly the same rule would apply in both cases. In the meantime Professor Robertson might finish his statement to the Committee. WHO WOULD BE AFFECTED BY THE ACT. . Mr. Robertson: — It is thought that the middlemen are the people to be affected by this bill. The man who is a middleman in commerce is a man who handles things and facilitates trade. He is entitled to a fair profit for the handling of things and no more. Just as far as he does his part in commerce he is as necessary and useful as the producer and the consumer. It is all nonsense to say that he is unnecessary. He is as necessary as the one or the other because he makes it possible to get things from one to the other. The selling of cheese and butter is done, in the first instance, by salesmen who are appointed to represent the patrons of the cheese factories and creameries. These salesmen may sell direct to a merchant, who may export the cheese or butter, or they may sell to an agent of such a merchant, or cheese buyer, who may in turn sell to an exporter. Many of these salesmen belong to a dairymen's board of trade, which may meet at some town or city in their district weekly or fortnightly. The cheese and butter are sold by auction or otherwise at these boards. In Western Ontario, cheese and butter are mostly sold subject to inspection of quality at the factory before they are shipped. In Eastern Ontario and portions of Quebec, cheese and butter are sold with the quality and weights guaranteed in Montreal, which, means that they are subject to the inspection of the buyer after they are in warehouse in Montreal. The factory salesmen do not as a rule sell any cheese or butter before these are made, with the exception sometimes of cheese and butter, which may be made OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 55 in the months of August, September, October, and later. Frequently the factory salesman agrees to^sell what is called the " fall make " at one time, and the contract is often made before all of these fall goods are manufactured. The exporters of cheese usually sell to merchants in Great Britain, by cable, at a price, C.I.F., which means at a certain rate in shillings and pence per cwt. of 112 pounds, with cost, freight and insurance paid to the port designated. The ex- porter may make a bona fide offer of cheese or butter which h^e has in his posses- sion, or he may make a bona fide offer to sell cheese or butter which he expects to buy, after his offer is accepted. When an exporter makes an offer of cheese or butter which are not then made, offering to deliver them at some future date, he is said to be offering " futures " or selling " short." A transaction of that sort, where the butter or cheese are not then in existence, is quite different from that of an exporter offering to sell for future delivery cheese which he owns or which at any rate are then in existence and can be owned by him. I want to make one illustration more. The handling of goods by the middle- man who facilitates the exchange of things — that is commerce — is a distinct ser- vice. Every man is entitled to his pay for just as much service as he renders, and no more. If a man has goods in his shop, where I can get them as I want them a pound at a time, he is entitled to profit for the risk he runs, for his time, for his capital and for the rest of it, under any honest system of economics. The point is as to whether any man has a right to stand on the avenues of commerce, with- out doing anything, and compel payment to himself for no value given. Take, for instance, those engaged in carrying goods from Toronto to Montreal — the collecting merchant, his employees, the railway men, the brakemen, the book- keepers and the other classes of labourers of all kinds do ren'der some service. Suppose at a certain point in the journey there came in certain men who held up the train, saying " You cannot get by until you pay us." They do not handle any- thing, they do not render any service to commerce or production, they do not contribute anything. They obstruct ; they interfere with trade ; they make it unsafe. Those men should be abolished whether on a railway or in a counting- house, if they block the exchange of goods and do not facilitate their exchange. That is what a man who deals in futures does. A man sits in his office in Mont- real, and in May he will cable over to England offering to deliver i,ooo boxes of July cheese to be delivered in August at a certain price. That has' been done often. At the time he cables there is not a box of July cheese of that season in existence. That man's offer will not be accepted in England; it very seldom is; but he offers to deliver the cheese at a lower price than the existing price, and every man who gets an offer of that kind says, "Well, I will not buy; the price is evidently going down and I will wait." This was what the dealer in futures de- sired. His object was simply to depress the market here. That is not speculation. A DIFFBHBNCB BETWEEN SPECULATION AND GAMBLING IN FUTURES. When a man speculates he hopes to gain something. When he buys something he hopes to sell it at a better price; when he buys what exists and puts his money into it, he hopes to gain something and has a right to do so. He is essential to the safety of commerce, just as essential as the fly wheel on the engine to keep it going steadily. But the man who does not contribute anything, but merely threatens that by and by he will sell a thing cheaper than others, is not a desirable factor in commerce. His object is to break the market down. The efforts of the other men are directed towards holding up the price of the articles. The speculator is steadying the market. On the other hand everyone who gambles in futures has 56 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER a tendency to keep the price down and to break the market. His influence on the trade is evil, evil only, and that continually. Last summer when in Great Britain I went with the remembrance of what had been dinned in my ears for two years on this side of the water by exporters of cheese, to the effect that we were making more cheese than the English market could take care of, and that the consumption was gomg off to meats, tinned goods, jams and jellies. Last year I went to the wholesale and retail dealers and they all told me that the trade had been improving and they were getting rid of our cheese as fast as we were making it here. Then there came two things, mild weather and we had admirable weather in August in Canada for making cheese — and the engineers' strike. There came some offers that cheese would be delivered in Nov- ember, and later, for less than it was selling for at that time. What was the result of that? Everyone wanted to get from under. It produced a panicky feeling and put the price of cheese down by three cents a pound. There was a first-rate con- sumptive demand in 'England ; and yet our producers or merchants lost three cents a pound. That would not have come at that particular time or with so much severity except through this practice of selling futures for the purpose of depress- ing the market here. Take a man who is a large exporter of cheese and who was last year president of the Cheese and Butter Association of the Board of Trade of Montreal, a city where the bulk of this is done. In his annual report last fall_ he deplored this practice of selling futures, thought it was on the increase, was a griev- ous injury to trade, and last year had done a great deal of damage. These words also express my views. By Mr. Featherston : Q. Who was the president.? A. Mr. Brice. By Mr. MacLaren : Q. Still, they make enough to get rich ? A. We do not want them to get rich too fast. We want them to work. The Bill deals with three things; first, a man shall not sell what is not in existence. That does not interfere with a man's right to make a contract, because a man has no right, natural or acquired, to contract to deliver to another man cheese and butter which do not exist. The next thing is that a man shall not sell a thing that he does not own. That is a question that is open for debate. He should not, in my opinion, offer to sell what he does not own until he has some good prospect of owning it. The Bill expressly exempts (clause 6) from that prohibition a man who represents the material and means for making cheese and butter, so that when a man represents the factory and the cows and the farms he has a right to sell what these will produce, because the materials for making the products are in ex- istence and subject to his action. That is quite different from a man offering to sell something that he does not own, and that he has no means of producing or of acquiring. I think that the Bill must do good; and the only difficulty I see is the difficulty of administering it effectively. As to that point, if a copy of this Bill, after it is passed, were sent to every importer in England they would see that this practice is illegal in Canada, and.no one could tempt them in such a way as to weaken the market by an offer of futures. By Mr. Frost : Q. How can you tell the difference between a man offering to sell cheese as a speculator and a bona fide producer? OF AGRICULTURE AXD DAIRYIXG. Ul A. A man could not offer to sell July cheese until July cheese are made. Q. Could he not make a contract? A. The Bill would prevent it, unless he represented the patrons or salesman. By Mr. Talbot : Q. Suppose I want to make a contract with the leading hotel to supply five or six thousand pounds of butter during the ensuing season, I am prevented from doing so by this law? A. No, not by this law. The last clause exempts that. Q. Any person who offers to sell " any butter or cheese which at the time such sale, offer or agreement is made has not been manufactured and is not his property or the property of some person for whom he is duly authorized to act, is guilty of an offence " ? A. But the last clause exempts the person who represents the producing factors. Clause 6 provides: " Nothing herein shall be deemed to prohibit any per- son who is duly authorized to act for the person or persons who supply milk to any dairy or butter or cheese factory, from selling, or offering to sell or agreeing to sell, any butter or cheese to be manufactured at such dairy or cheese factory or butter factory." By Mr. MacLaren : Q. If I wanted to contract for i,ooo boxes of July cheese, could I make that contract under that Bill ? . You could with the salesmen of cheese factories, regularly appointed. Q. How would any person know whether I had that cheese sold in England or not? A. Because if the Bill were in force nobody in England would accept an offer for this reason: He would say, "The Canadian law makes that illegal, therefore if the price goes up the Canadian is not required to deliver the goods, but if the price goes down he will hold me to the contract. Thank you, none of that for me." Q. How are you going to know, supposing I cable from my office to ten men in England offering i,ooo boxes of cheese; and if any of these offers are accepted, how are you going to tell that I have done it when I am using my cipher? A. The English importer would not accept the offers, or be affected by them if he knew this law was in force. Q. I think this will require some sifting out? A. It is quite possible that this law might not be altogether effective in stop- ping the practice which is acknowledged by everybody to be an evil one. If this law is not sufficient, then let us make a law that will be sufficient, or let us confess ourselves unequal to do the duty that lies upon us of protecting the farmers and this large interest. Let us try this law for a year or two and if it is not sufficient let us make it sufficient. Mr. GiLMOUR : — If the whole deal was in this country we could prevent it, but seeing that the main portion of the deal is in another country — England — we cannot prevent it. The only effect would be to remove the agencies to Eng- land. 5S JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER Mr. Sproule : — We could prosecute here but not in England. Mr. Gilmour: — And as a consequence the agencies in Montreal could remove their place of action to England. Mr. Talbot : — But the people over there would not buy from them. Mr. Gilmour: — They could if they wished, through agents. Mr. Talbot: — But no one would sell, because tHey would be equally guilty. Mr. McMillan: — The buyer on the other side would be very careful in buying from persons here when he knew the law of Canada would not allow him to punish the man, because the law prohibits that sort of thing here. Mr. Gilmour: — Business knows no law. If a man wants a thing he will have it whether it contravenes the law or not. If I was in England and bought something I would not care whether the seller contravened any law or not. Cheese is a thing which has to be bought ahead, and this Bill acknowledges that when it allows a man to sell ahead, through proper agents. It would break up trade alto- gether if you could pass this Bill, but I tell you you cannot. Mr. Campbell: — Is it desirable to do so even if you can? Mr. Gilmour: — No, I do not think so. Mr. Sproule : — Another thing that is growing up is for a man to go through the country and contract to take milk from a number of farmers, and then to go into the city and contract to deliver it. He does not own the milk, but he is acting as a middleman. That is the practice too in selling fish, but the men who sell do not own them. They hire men to fish for them. Mr. Campbell: — Through men selling wheat short millions of dollars have been given to the farmers of Canada and the United States last year. Mr. McMillan: — As our time; is up, I move that the Chairman take the advice of the Minister of Justice. Mr. MacLaren: — With regard to asking witnesses to come here, is such action before the Committee? The Chairman : — That is for the Committee to consider. Mr. MacLaren: — It would be a good thing to have dealers and salesmen from different markets come here and give evidence. Mr. Calvert: — If the Bill cannot be put into eflfect there is no use having anyone come here to discuss it. OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 59 Committee Rooii No. 46, House of Commons, Friday, 29th April, 1898. The Select Standing Committee on Agriculture and Colonization met this day at 1 1 o'clock a.m. ; Mr. Bain, Chairman, presiding. Mr. J. W. Robertson, Commissioner of Agriculture and Dairying, was called, and in response addressed the Committee on the sul^ject of poultry and eggs, as follows : — The poultry trade of Great Britain is a large trade. There are counties in England where people are still growing rich from the enormous sales, particularly of chickens. Great Britain imports altogether of poultry nearly three and a half million dollars worth. In 1896 $30,000 worth were sent from Canada and about $90,000 worth credited in the British returns to United States ports was actually from Canada. IMPORTANCE OF PROPER FATTENING OF POULTRY. One defect in the management of this business is that people in Canada do not properly fatten their poultry. So important is this considered in England that the rearing and fattening .of poultryl are carried on by two distinct classes of people in most cases ; therefore poultry is finished to a very excellent condition. The fattening takes from three to five weeks time. With hens, cockerels, pullets, it is impossible to get them into the; condition of fatness they require them in across the water if they are allowed to run at large. They have to be penned up in crates during the last three weeks. Our chickens do not compare favourably with the home grown chickens and cockerels of Great Britain, or the birds from France. It does not follow, however, that we cannot equal them. We are trying to publish the details this year for the information of farmers here, and after the home market is supplied I think we will have a large supply of chickens for ex- port. In fattening turkeys we do not do as well as we might, though Canadian turkeys that went to Great Britain compared very favourably with those there. It should be remembered, however, that the choice birds are taken for export and the best we had were sent there. But they were not as good as they might have been, in many cases, if they had been fattened properly. In fattening turkeys it is to be observed that sweet meals, such as sweet oatmeal, barley and rye meals only should be used. They are best. Cornmeal should not be used because it has a tendency to give the birds, turkeys particularly, a yellow colour to which the English purchaser objects, but which people in the United States prefer. If you ask about it in the United States they will tell you that; they prefer the yellow: but the English people object and are willing to pay a price proportionate to their own taste being met. Mixed meals are best and they should get them both morn- ing and afternoon in a soft steamed condition. If the meal is cooked it is pre- ferable ; if not it should be steamed until soft during the fattening period. The birds do not grow a soft flesh on whole grain fed raw. Turkeys cannot be fatten- ed in coops like chickens, and in England they are out in a shed with a screen in front, ten square feet being allowed to each bird. There is room for exercise and also for letting in fresh air and sunlight. 60 JAMES W. EOBERTSOX, OOMMISSIOXER By Mr. Broder : Q. A comparatively cheap shed would do, I suppose ? A. Oh, yes. By Mr. McMillan : Q. Ten feet square ? A. No, ten square feet ; so that ten feet square would give you room for ten birds. Then one important thing that should be known about this is that feeding skim milk sweet, or sour, with meal will add to the quality of the flesh and cause a rapid increase in weight. It helps the colour very much also, and gives a white- ness which is very desirable. I did not learn these points in England from the dealers but from the men and women — and a great many women are engaged in this business — who fatten poultry. One thing more, the best turkeys are fed with nearly half an ounce per day of the' commonest fat that can be found. That 's fed to them during the last ten days of the finishing period. It has the effect of softening the flesh and of giving it a juicyness that notliing else will give. That is fed with the soft food. S3; Mr. Broder : Q. Scraps ? A. Yes, they are sometimes fed lean scraps ; but that does not answer the purpose. The fat is a good thing. It makes the flesh softer. HOW THE BIRDS SHOULD BE KILJLED. Then in the killing of the birds dealers insist upon the birds being killed by wringing their necks instead of bleeding them. They would not buy them at all, except at half price, if the heads were chopped off. Q. Is that the English market ? A. Yes. I have an illustration here which is going to the printer now show- irxg how to kill a turkey. We find that where we cannot have a dressed turkey sent about the country to illustrate the idea, it is a good thing to publish illustra- tions of every part of the process. I have said that the English people prefer certain things without always having full information as to why they prefer them, and consequently they very often give us mistaken advice as to their needs. A service can be done to Canadians not so much by repeating what they say in Eng- land as by analyzing what they say they want and supplying them with that. In talking with English dealers I did not find a single man who wanted turkeys bled in the mouth. They wanted the neck wrung and the birds hung up by the legs, letting the blood coagulate. Now I did not find one who did not want the whitest of white flesh. It seemed to me to be incompatible that they should want the whitest of flesh and yet want them killed without bleeding. When I came home I had turkeys killed both ways, cooked at my house, and served on my table together. I had some friends in. The turkey that had its neck rung had a pinky white flesh, and a higher flavour, and the men liked that turkey the best. The ladies decidedly preferred the whiter colour and the more delicate flavour of the other bird. Of course that was not an absolute test, because you never can tell whether the two birds have been brought up under identical conditions and fed in the same manner. However, I repeated the test with the same result. There is no doubt but that a certain amount of blood is left in the flesh in the one case causing a decidedly pinky shade. So I am modifying the bulletin in this respect. OP AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 61 By Mr. Moore : Q. If you treat one-half in one way and the other half in the other you will suit both preferences ? A. I am afraid you could not separate the two classes in England very well. I mention that for this reason : We find that the English importer gives you the most emphatic advice without having analysed altogether the causes of what he desires. SUPERFICIAL INFORMATION MISLEADING. The other night in the House of Commons we had a very . important in.- porter of eggs who is in this country making his plans for getting shipments from Canada. He said : " We don't want cold storage on the ship for our eggs," and he was very emphatic about that. When we came to analyse the question raised by this statement, he said : " We do not want to keep eggs in England at all, but we want to sell them immediately." When we came to analyse it we found that every lot of eggs sent to England were usually 12 days in process of distri- bution before they were consumed and that these eggs could not be so good if they have not been kept cool on the ship. He said that eggs that did not come in cold storage had sold for the best prices over there. When we came to talk over the subject he said that one lot that were not in cold storage came from one part of Canada and that the other lot in cold storage came from another part of Canada. You see there was no comparison there. Some of the eggs in cold storage he said were rotten. Cold storage does not make eggs rotten, but it prseerves them if they are originally in good condition. He came to the conclusion that because in some cases eggs not carried in cold storage had been sold for higher prices than eggs carried in cold storage, that, therefore, cold storage was not necessary. A great many men in England arrive at conclusions without analysing the causes which have produced them. By Mr. McMillan : Q. Are the eggs taken out of cold storage right away when they arrive ? A. That is one of the causes of the sweating of eggs. We propose to advise shippers to put a label on every case on which the following direction is given : " Please leave this case closed for two days after being removed from the ship." During that time the eggs become wanii and there is no condensation on the surface. They do not sweat by exudation ; it is condensation on the sur- .face. I need not detain the Committee on that subject, because illustrated direc- tions for packing poultry will be found in the report to be issued. By Mr. McGregor : Q. When will this be out ? A. The Queen's Printer promises that it will be out about the middle of May. By Mr. Calvert : Q. Would you advise wringing the neck instead of bleeding ? A. I find that the turkeys- that pay best are the English killed turkeys, and they are killed by striking the fowl on the head with a stick; first stunning it and then bleeding it by cutting a deep incision through the roof of the mouth into the brain, lengthwise and crosswise. By stunning the fowl there is no spluttering of blood over the feathers, and by cutting a slit in the roof of the mouth there is no 62 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER mutilation of the head. You have the head as they want it, and the flesh as tliey want it, white. Q. Will a stunned bird bleed quite well ? A. Quite. That is really all I want to say about poultry. There are a good many things about packing poultry which are important, but we have given very full information about this in the bulletin sent out last fall and republished now. The three things of importance are that the birds ought to be defeathered, that is that the feathers should be taken off. By Mr. McGregor : Q. Would you prefer taking them off cold or after they have been dipped in warm water? A. They should not be put in water at all ; dry picking is best, and it should be done at once. By Mr. Calvert : Q. Does it make any difference whether the bird is warm when picked or not? A. It should be picked immediately after being killed. The feathers come out easier, it gives the skin a nicer appearance and there is far less risk of tearing the skin. There is a limited demand in a few places for birds in feathers, particularly in Liverpool. A few people who were familiar with Canadian poultry will take them in that way when they can get them in barrels; but poultry dealers, as a rule, will not take birds in feathers now, except at bargain prices, for they have no time or conveniences for plucking them, and housekeepers do not want them with their feathers on. BIRDS SHOULD BE SORTED INTO SIZES. The next thing of importance is to sort the birds into sizes, allowing no greater difference in weight than two pounds per bird. In one case birds weigh- ing from ten to twelve pounds should be packed; in another, birds from twelve to fourteen pounds; and in another, birds from fourteen to sixteen pounds; and the weight should be labelled on each. The birds should be sorted as to sex, the cocks and hens being separated. The third point is that big birds ought to be sent before Christmas time. A turkey weighing as much as eighteen pounds will sell for twice as much by the pound as the bird that weighs nine pounds, whereas, later on, after the festival season has passed, there is a good demand for smaller-sized birds, weigh- ing from eight to twelve pounds. I am confident that sending over birds of this size at the proper season to Great Britain will create a demand on the part of a class of people there who have not been using poultry, except in feast times. Our turkeys will go to supply the artisans who have been consuming lamb and other meats. This will result in an enormous demand for as many turkeys as we can send them in good condition. By Mr. McGregor : Q. Is there any difference in the breed? A. The large Bronze is the one that we recommend for use in Canada. It gives size and a good quality of flesh. Q. And just as hardy? A. Yes. There are a few places where they have white turkeys, but they are not preferred to the others. The preference that used to exist for colour in the legs OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 63 has disappeared and now they are willing to take even the black-leg birds. Some of the finest birds in France have yellow, bronze and even black legs. By the Chairman : Q. Does France supply a large share? A. Yes, a large share of the poultry that goes to Great Britain. Q. How about Denmark? A. I will just give you a statement of the imports of poultry into Great Britain, and the countries from which it came, for the year ending December 31, 1896 ; From Value. Canada , $ 30>504 Other British possessions. ... 25,472 United States 92,564 Russia 698,775 Norway 31,901 Denmark ,59.728 Germany 102,049 Holland 208,147 Belgium 697,821 France 1,474,122 Egypt 10,561 Other foreign countries 1,682 Total $3,433,326 By Mr. Calvert : Q. The United States only shipped $90,000 worth ? A. Yes, and the practice is to put in the trade I'eturns in England the last port of shipment, and most of that $90,000 worth of poultry credited to the United States was doubtless Canadian, shipped through the United States in bond. By the Chairman : Q. Did you ever see Egyptian poultry? A. No, I did not. There is likely to be an enlarged consumption of poultry during the next few years in England. It is one of the things in which I think there is going to be a very large trade. That is the reason that we are trying to encourage the farmers to give attention to it and why we are giving all possible information that we can gather,, particularly as to fattening them properly after they are grown. By Mr. Broder : Q. Would it be a good thing to buy them grown, fatten them, and ship them afterwards? A. It might be a good thing in the case of pullets and cockerels ; but I doubt if it would be the best plan with turkeys. I think turkeys should be fattened by the farmers who raise them. Q. There is a man in Boston who has a place three or four miles from the city to feed them and after taking them there he gets the biggest price. He will take a goose, soak it over night, and put it on the market as white as a turkey? 64 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER A. There is certainly room for improvement in the way of treating our poultry in preparing them for the market. EGGS. Great Britain imports eggs to the value of $20,000,000 a year, or nearly six times as much value as poultry. Of that Canada sent $870,poo, or less than one million dollars' worth in 1896. llie returns for last year, 1897, "P to the end of December are not yet available. By Mr. Calvert : Q. We do better in eggs than poultry.'' .A.. Yes, they are gaining in favour. By Mr. Ratz : Q. Do the Americans not pay duty on our poultry? A. Yes, but not when they go through in bond on the way to England, where they are credited to the United States, just as we get the credit in the British re- turns for their shipments of .cheese or cattle via Montreal or St. John, N.B. By Mr. Parmalee : Q. Do they, as a general practice, sell eggs by weight in England? A. No, it is a very rare practice. They are sold wholesale, according to grade, which has a basis in weight; but they are sold wholesale by the case, and a case contains 120 dozens. A long hundred, or great hundred, is 120 eggs. By Mr. McMillan : Q. When they sell on the standard, don't they weigh them? A. They have a certain tgg grade, extra quality, 17 pounds to the long hundred They test them for that; 15 pounds per 120 eggs is the average. There are 120 eggs to the long hundred; that is ij4 pounds to the dozen, or two ounces to the egg. When they get a smaller size than 15 lbs. per great hundred, for every half pound of weight less than 15 poimds per great hundred they are worth one cent per dozen less. You lose 10 cents on the lot by the half a pound in weight. There is a very much larger percentage of broken and rotten eggs among small white shell eggs than is the case with the large eggs. They all say that the albumen of the large eggs is thicker and more likely to keep than the smaller eggs. I have no informa- tion as to percentage, but that is the opinion expressed by every dealer. By Mr. Moore : Q. Is there any difiference in the flavoi;ir between the large and the sm.aller ones ? A. I do not know. The opinion is that there is mofe water in the smaller eggs and that they therefore spoil more readily. By Mr. Calvert : Q. Do they separate these or average them ? A. They try to make three grades, which are called " extras," " bests " and " seconds." In England the " extras " are very large, the " bests " are 15 pounds IPF AomcULTUttM AND DAIRYING. 65 and the " seconds " are smaller than this. I can give you the prices last winter that were quoted in Great Britain about December, per dozen : — Country. t i Cents. French, extra 31 to 34 " best 28 to 30 " seconds 24 to 26 Danish 26 to 31 Italian, extra 29 " best 23 to 26 Hungarian 16 to 22 Russian 18 to 20 Canadian 20 to 22 " pickled 17 to 18 By Mr. Broder : Q. The Danish quotation, that is for best ? A. There is only one quotation for Danish. ; By Mr. McGregor : I ^ 1 ■ Q. Why is there that difference between the eggs of dififerent countries ? A. The French eggs are fresher, more uniform and put up better for the market. The Italian and Russian eggs are more like Canadian. By Mr. Parmalee : Q". The trouble is our people are not edhacated up to sending theiis eggs in a fresh condition. The country merchants are in the habit of keeping them on) hand for some time, and taking it altogether the eggs have a very good chance of going off flavour ? A. That is no doubt so in many cases. By Mr. Calvert : . Q. If people were to kill off the cocks early, would, the eggs not be better ? A. If the cocks and hens were kept separate they would be better. By Mr. Broder : Q. The hens run about the barn and lay here and there, and everywhere, and sometHnes the eggs are not found for two or three days. Instead of having the hens shut up and the eggs gathered every day the hens are allowed to- rum at lar^e ? A. The eggs should be collected every day and pl'aced by themselVes wSen they are to be sold for export. Those that are found out of the regular nests should be kept for home consumption. By Mr. Calvert : Of. Don't you think they are usually taken to the store ? A. I dare say they are. 5 . • : ' ' I eggs? 66 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER INFERTILE VS. FERTILE EGHJS. By Mr. McMillan : Q. Would there be any benefit in keeping the male birds shut up, away from the others ? A. It is claimed that the tgg that is not fertile will keep much better, and they say that if kept apart from the male birds the hens will usually lay more eggs. By Mr. Parmalee : Q. Did you find that the case at the farm ? A. They all kept well there so that there was no difference between fertile and infertile eggs. It is said that hens kept apart from the male birds will lay 20 per cent more eggs. By Mr. Broder : Q. Is there any difference in the price between fertilized and unfertilized ? A. There is no difference in the quotations. Mr. Parmalee: — It is the general impression that fertile eggs do not keep as well as infertile. By Mr. Steuson : Q. Did you prove at the farm that hens would lay 20 per cent more if they were kept apart from the male birds ? . A. I do not know whether the experiment was continued long enough to ascertain that. That statement is made by ordinary poultry men and egg gather- ers, but I do not know the exact experimental data to support it. Q. They are the only authority you find for it ? A. Yes. i By Mr. McMillan : Q. That is a point that should be taken up and settled ? A. The next question that I want to speak of is the question of the colour in eggs that is preferred. In every case they prefer a brownish egg to a white one. i By Mr. McGregor : Q. Is there not something in the feeding of the chicken in producing the colour of the shell ? A. I think it is in the breed. By Mr. Stenson : Q. Is it not a fact that white shells are thicker than brown ones ? A. No ; the dealers say there is a larger proportion of white eggs broken than brown ones. • If there was more brittleness about the brown eggs there would be more broken and there is no evidence of that at all, they say. Of course the thickness of shell depends upon the fowl having access to enough lime to make shell. OF AGRICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 67 I come now to THE PRESERVATION OF EGGS. The ^gg will change unfavourably for food purposes in one or two ways; either by putrefaction from fermentation or by the process of hatching. The two are entirely distinct. The object of preservation is to prevent both of these chan- ges from occurring. Cold storage will entirely prevent fermentation. So lon.ij as the tgg is kept in cold storage it may evaporate but it will not spoil by putre- faction. Hatching will take place only when the egg is kept at a temperatui-e of about 96° Fahrenheit. In this country there are times when the atmospheric temperature is about that, and then the eggs get warm and if fertile they will go on hatching. ' ' I I Q. Supposing they are not fertile ? A. They would not spoil unless there had been handling so that germs from die atmosphere or elsewhere got on the shell and caused fermentation. Q. Therefore, heat will not spoil the egg unless it is fertilized ? A. No, unless contaminated frorfi the outside through the shell. Q. Heat itself will not spoil it ? A. It will hasten decay when any germs get on the egg and through its shell. By Mr. McMillan : Q. Would you advise that eggs should be kept in a cool place in order to protect them from the air ? A. Yes, as cool a place as they can be put into immediately after they are collected. A great many methods have been tried for preserving eggs, but only three can be recommended. Cover the shell with vaseline which prevents the germs from getting upon it. Then eggs can be kept in lime-water, which is the usual method of keeping pickled eggs, and eggs have been kept in a solution of what is called water glass or silicate of soda. The pickling of eggs does not mean putting them in a pickle of salt, because that would spoil the eggs utterly. When you speak of pickling eggs you mean keeping eggs in lime-water, which does not impart any flavour. Q. There is a good deal of salt in it? A. A little, but not enough to impart a flavour. Mr. McMillan: — There is lime, a certain quantity of salt, and some other ingredients which I do not know anything about. By Mr. Calvert : Q. Do you believe that the eggs should not be packed in salt? A. If that is done, the eggs will taste decidedly salt inside. By Mr. Dugas : Q. What method would you recommend in keeping eggs tjver winter for home use? "^ A. The best way is to keep them in as cold a place as you have, down to 34° Fahr., and to wrap each egg in tissue paper. 68 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER Q. What about putting them in bran? A. If you put them in bran there is a risk of the bran becoming slightly damp and mouldy, and if so the eggs will tasty musty and mouldy. Q. If you put them in oats? A. The same thing happens; the oats are not so apt to become mouldy, but there is no use putting them in oats unless to prevent the breaking of the eggs. The safest plan is to wrap each tgg in tissue paper or when they are gathered fresh to rub them with vaseline and keep them in a cold place. By Mr. Stenson : ' ' Q. Is there any degree of strength which should be given to the lime-water to make it most useful for the preservation of the eggs? A. Yes, but the shippers and dealers have their own private formulae for making that. Q. But v/hen farmers want to keep their eggs themselves, what are your in- structions to give them in order to preserve them in lime-water? A. The better plan is to v/rap each eg.g which the fanner wishes to keep for his own use in tissue paper and keep it in a cold place. Those men who keep eggs for export have their tanks in which the eggs are placed in cold storage so that the lime-water itself is cooled down as low as 40°. The lime-water keeps the air from the eggs and the low temperature keeps fermentation from going on. By Mr. Calvert : tj. Would a newspaper answer as well for wrapping the eggs in? A. Yes, but it is a little stiflf, and does not conform to the shape of the egg as well as the tissue paper. By Mr. Stenson : , Q. Probably the ink would have an efifect? A. It would if it were damp, and it might impart an odour to the egg. If eggs are carried in cases in the hold of a ship along with apples, the eggs would absorb the apple flavour. By Mr. McMillan : Q. The pores of the pickled eggs are closed up, I suppose? A. They are less susceptible than other eggs. By Mr. Stenson : ! Q. How much lime would it take to prepare the water to a sufficient strength to treat a certain quantity of eggs? A. The formula is as follows : — Dissolve 1 lb. fresh slaked lime, 2 oz. salt, i oz. saltpetre in one gallon of boiling wator. The soluHon is to be thoroughly cooled before the eggs are put In it ; and afterwards kept at a temperature as near 35° Fahr., as practicable. The next thing is to have eggs collected frequently from the nests and taken to a cool place, either a shop or the storehouse of the exporter. We have prepared dravnngs and will publish them, that will give the farmers and the ordinary coun- try merchant information as to how best to provide a cheap cold storage ware- house. OF AGRICULTUBE AND DAIRYING. 69 Q. Do you mean to have them taken warm from the nest to a cold place? A. Yes, collected once a day and placed immediately in the coolest place you can have. Q. There^ is no danger of any detriment to the egg from the sudden change of temperature from the heat to the cold? A. None whatever. A moment ago the question came up as to the eggs ot pullets and hens. One of the drawbacks is that the farmers do not ring their pullets to tell which are pullets and which are old hens. After three years old the hen does not give any profit from egg-laying. It is not easy to tell unless a ring is put each year, one year on the right leg of all the pullets, and next year on the left leg of all the pullets. There is going into my report this year the report of a piece of experimental work done at one of the experimental stations in the United States by a Canadian over there in charge of the work. It struck me as good work and I have transposed it to my report, giving him credit for it. I thought it a most creditable piece of experimental work, done by a boy from Gait, Ont., who is doing this work in Utah, United States. I have taken about two-thirds of his bulletin and I am embodying it in my report. It is one of the best pieces of experimental work with poultry I have ever examined for comprehensiveness of plan, thorough- ness of execution and vividness in presenting results. Q. Do they give the food in that report? A. Yes, but the experiment was not to discover the difference between differ- ent kinds of food, though that is given with the actual cost in each pen, the number of eggs, and the price per dozen. I think the country will be very much served by it, and I had no trouble in .getting permission from the director of the station to publish it in Canada. By Mr. Calvert : Q. What is his name? A. James Dryden, formerly of Gait, Ont., and it was intimated that if there was a good chance he would not be unwilling to return to Canada. Having examined the preceding transcripts of my evidence of April 20th, April 22nd, April 27th, April 28th, and May 4th, 1898, I find them correct. JAS. W. ROBERTSON, Commissioner of Agriculture and Dairying. 68 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER Q. What about putting them in bran? A. If you put them in bran there is a risk of the bran becoming slightly damp and mouldy, and if so the eggs will tasty musty and mouldy. Q. If you put them in oats? A. The same thing happens; the oats are not so apt to become mouldy, but there is no use putting them in oats unless to prevent the breaking of the eggs. The safest plan is to wrap each egg in tissue paper or when they are gathered fresh to rub them with vaseline and keep them in a cold place. By Mr. Stenson : ' ' Q. Is there any degree of strength which should be given to the lime-water to make it most useful for the preservation of the eggs? A. Yes, but the shippers and dealers have their own private formulae for making that. Q. But v/hen farmers want to keep their eggs themselves, what are your in- structions to give them in order to presei-ve them in lime-water? A. The better plan is to v/rap each egg which the fanner wishes to keep for his own use in tissue paper and keep it in a cold place. Those men who keep eggs for export have their tanks in which the eggs are placed in cold storage so that the lime-water itself is cooled down as low as 40°. The lime-water keeps the air from the eggs and the low temperature keeps fermentation from going on. By Mr. Calvert : Q. Would a newspaper answer as well for wrapping the eggs in? A. Yes, but it is a little stiff, and does not conform to the shape of the egg as well as the tissue paper. , By Mr. Stenson : ' Q. Probably the ink would have an efifect? A. It would if it were damp, and it might impart an odour to the egg. If eggs are carried in cases in the hold of a ship along with apples, the eggs would absorb the apple flavour. By Mr. McMillan : ; Q. The pores of the pickled eggs are closed up, I suppose? A. They are less susceptible than other eggs. By Mr. Stenson : 1 Q. How much lime would it take to prepare the water to a sufficient strength to treat a certain quantity of eggs? A. The formula is as follows : — Dissolve 1 lb. fresh slaked lime, 2 oz. salt, i oz. saltpetre in one gallon of boiling wat.'^r. The BoluHon is to be thoroughly cooled before the eggs are put In it ; and afterwards kept at a temperature as near 35° Fahr., as practicable. The next thing is to have eggs collected frequently from the nests and taken to a cool place, either a shop or the storehouse of the exporter. We have prepared drawings and will publish them, that will give the farmers and the ordinary coun- try merchant information as to how best to provide a cheap cold storage ware- house, OF AORIGULTURE AND DAIRYING. 69 Q. Do you mean to have them taken warm from the nest to a cold place? A. Yes, collected once a day and placed immediately in the coolest place you can have. Q. There, is no danger of any detriment to the egg from the sudden change of temperature from the heat to the cold? A. None whatever. A moment ago the question came up as to the eggs ol pullets and hens. One of the drawbacks is that the farmers do not ring their pullets to tell which are pullets and which are old hens. After three years old the hen does not give any profit from egg-laying. It is not easy to tell unless a ring is put each year, one year on the right leg of all the pullets, and next year on the left leg of all the pullets. There is going into my report this year the report of a piece of experimental work done at one of the experimental stations in the United States by a Canadian over there in charge of the work. It struck me as good work and I have transposed it to my report, giving him credit for it. I thought it a most creditable piece of experimental work, done by a boy from Gait, Ont., who is doing this work in Utah, United States. I have taken about two-thjrds of his bulletin and I am embodying it in my report. It is one of the best pieces of experimental work with poultry I have ever examined for comprehensiveness of plan, thorough- ness of execution and vividness in presenting results. Q. Do they give the food in that report? A. Yes, but the experiment was not to discover the difference between differ- ent kinds of food, though that is given with the actual cost in each pen, the number of eggs, and the price per dozen. I think the country will be very much served by it, and I had no trouble in .getting permission from the director of the station to publish it in Canada. By Mr. Calvert : Q. What is his name? A. James Dryden, formerly of Gait, Ont., and it was intimated that if there was a good chance he would not be unwilling to return to Canada. Having examined the preceding transcripts of my evidence of April 20th, April 22nd, April 27th, April 28th, and May 4th, 1898, 1 find them correct. JAS. W. ROBERTSON, Commissioner of Agriculture and Dairying. 68 JAMES W. ROBERTSON, COMMISSIONER Q. What about putting them in bran? A. If you put them in bran there is a risk of the bran becoming slightly damp and mouldy, and if so the eggs will tasty musty and mouldy. Q. If you put them in oats? A. The same thing happens; the oats are not so apt to become mouldy, but there is no use putting them in oats unless to prevent the breaking of the eggs. The safest plan is to wrap each t:g^ in tissue paper or when they are gathered fresh to rub them with vaseline and keep them in a cold place. By Mr. Stenson : ' ' Q. Is there any degree of strength which should be given to the lime-water to make it most useful for the preservation of the eggs? A. Yes, but the shippers and dealers have their own private formulae for making that. Q. But v/hen farmers want to keep their eggs themselves, what are your in- structions to give them in order to preserve them in lime-water? A. The better plan is to v/rap each eg-g which the fanner wishes to keep for his own use in tissue paper and keep it in a cold place. Those men who keep eggs for export have their tanks in which the eggs are placed in cold storage so that the lime-water itself is cooled down as low as 40°. The lime-water keeps the air from the eggs and the low temperatxire keeps fermentation from going on. By Mr. Calvert : Q. Would a newspaper answer as well for wrapping the eggs in? A. Yes, but it is a little stiff, and does not conform to the shape of the egg as well as the tissue paper. 1 1 ! , By Mr. Stenson ; ' ! I 1 Q. Probably the ink would have an effect? A. It would if it were damp, and it might impart an odour to the egg. If eggs are carried in cases in the hold of a ship along with apples, the eggs would absorb the apple flavour. By Mr. McMillan : , , ; Q. The pores of the pickled eggs are closed up, I suppose? A. They are less susceptible than other eggs. By Mr. Stenson : 1 Q. How much lime would it take to prepare the water to a sufficient strength to treat a certain quantity of eggs? A. The formula is as follows : — Dissolve 1 lb. fresh slaked Ume, 2 oz. salt, i oz. saltpetre in one gallon of 'boiling watir. The soluHon is to be thoroughly cooled before the eggs are put In it ; and afterwards kept at a temperature as near 35° Fahr., as practicable. The next thing is to have eggs collected frequently from the nests and taken to a cool place, either a shop or the storehouse of the exporter. We have prepared drawings and will publish them, that will give the farmers and the ordinary coun- try merchant information as to how best to provide a cheap cold storage ware- house, OF AGBICULTURE AND DAIRYING. 69 Q. Do you mean to have them taken warm from the nest to a cold place? A. Yes, collected once a day and placed immediately in the coolest place you can have. Q. There^ is no danger of any detriment to the &gg from the sudden change of temperature from the heat to the cold? A. None whatever. A moment ago the question came up as to the eggs ot pullets and hens. One of the drawbacks is that the farmers do not ring their pullets to tell which are pullets and which are old hens. After three years old the hen does not give any profit from egg-laying. It is not easy to tell unless a ring is put each year, one year on the right leg of all the pullets, and next year on the left leg of all the pullets. There is going into my report this year the report of a piece of experimental work done at one of the experimental stations in the United States by a Canadian over there in charge of the work. It struck me as good work and I have transposed it to my report, giving him credit for it. I thought it a most creditable piece of experimental work, done by a boy from Gait, Ont., who is doing this work in Utah, United States. I have taken about two-thirds of his bulletin and I am embodying it in my report. It is one of the best pieces of experimental work with poultry I have ever examined for comprehensiveness of plan, thorough- ness of execution and vividness in presenting results. Q. Do they give the food in that report? A. Yes, but the experiment was not to discover the difference between difTer- ent kinds of food, though that is given with the actual cost in each pen, the number of eggs, and the price per dozen. I think the country will be very much served by it, and I had no trouble in .getting permission from the director of the station to publish it in Canada. By Mr. Calvert : Q. What is his name? A. James Dryden, formerly of Gait, Ont., and it was intimated that if there was a good chance he would not be unwilling to return to Canada. Having examined the preceding transcripts of my evidence of April 20th, April 22nd, April 27th, April 28th, and May 4th, 1898, 1 find them correct. JAS. W. ROBERTSON, Commissioner of Agriculture and Dairying.