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Diseussio:^ 
 
 BETWEEN" 
 
 / 
 
 REV. JOHN: L. SHINN. 
 
 OF THE UNIVERSALIST CHURCH, 
 
 ELDER MARK H. FORSCtJTT. 
 
 OF THE REORGANIZED CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, 
 
 ROCK CREEK, ILLS., AUGUST 10th-1*Sth. 18T5. 
 
 PtANO, KENDALL COUNTY, ILLINOIS: 
 
 PRINTED AND PUBLISHED BY THE BOARD OF PUBLICATION OP THE R^GH- 
 QANIZED CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OP LATTER DAY SAINTS. 
 
 1 8 7 o. 
 
 tr 
 
sss 
 
PREFACE. 
 
 The discussion reported in the following pages arose from the Eev. J. L. Shinn 
 
 preaching against the doctrines in controversy as held by the Latter Day Saints 
 
 and by eminent christians of many other churches, and by his throwing out a 
 
 challenge to the christian world generally, and to Elder Forscutt in particular, 
 
 to discuss these points with him. ' Brethren Walter Head and Wm. Lambert 
 
 being present, accepted the challenge in behalf of Elder Forscutt. 
 
 These brethren wrote to Elder Forscutt to ascertain whether he would 
 
 meet Mr. Shinn,v and received the following reply : 
 
 Lewistown, Pulton County, Illinois, April 16th, 1815. 
 Bko. a. W. Head, Sonora, Illinois: 
 
 I am engaged for the present at this place, Bryant, St. David's, Cteton, and 
 Peoria — when through here, I can come to Sonora, if necessary, and if Mr. Shinn wishes to 
 debate with me the doctrine of the Resurrection of the Body, or any other doctrine we hold, 
 he can readily be accommodated. You can hand him an Epitome of our Faith,, and teU him 
 I am ready to aflSrm any part or all of it, or to deny if any chooses to affirm an opposing faith. 
 King James' Translation of the Bible to be the standard reference ,oq doctrinal matters, 
 standard authors on Antiquities of America, if the Book of Mormon be assailed ; time to be 
 equally divided, each to choose one Moderator, and the two Moderators and audience to 
 choose a Chairman, who shall not belong to the Church of either disputant. 
 
 Your brother in Christ, Makk H. Forscutt. 
 
 On receiving the foregoing letter, the brethren waited on Mr. Shinn, 
 who wrote the two propositions hereinafter found, and discussed between him 
 and Elder Forscutt. 
 
 It is to be regretted that Mr. Shinn did not accede to the request of 
 Elder Forscutt to extend the debate still further, as there would have been, 
 without doubt, very much of interest to the Bible student, which the limited 
 time given prevented the introduction of. 
 
 It is, however, now sent forth, with a prayer that the truths, thoughts 
 and views presented may be reviewed carefully by the reader in the light 
 of the revelations of God's Holy Word, and that in its perusal each reader 
 may obtain light and comfort from the promises of Him who is able to 
 ■ perform all that He hath promised. 
 
 HULES of' DISCUSSION BETWEEN M. H. FORSCUTT 
 . AND J. L. SHINN. 
 
 Ist. — The discussion shall be held at Rock Creek Township, Hancock County, Illinois, 
 tiommencing Tuesday, August 10th, 1816, and shall continue four days. There shall be two 
 
4 PREFACE. 
 
 sessions each. day. The forenoon sg^ion shall commence at ten o'clock, and the afternoon 
 session at two o'clock, and each sellKinbe of two hours* duration. The debate shall close 
 at four o'clock on Friday, August j|.3th. " 
 
 2nd.: — Each session shall b^e^omposed of two speeches by each disputant, which shall 
 be alternate half-hour speeches. The affirmative shall open, and the negative shall close the 
 debate on each proposition. In the final' speeches no new matter shall be introduced without 
 mutual consent. 
 
 3rd. — Each party shall choose a Moderator, and they two shall choose a third, if neces- 
 sary. Their duties shall be the^usual duties of Moderators of such assemblies. 
 
 4th. — ^Eaoh party shall occupy four sessions in the affirmative of his respective propo- 
 sition; but the time may be extended by mutual consent. 
 
 5th. — Bach session shall be opened and closed by prayer, the disputants alternating in 
 the opening service, either by themselves, or by s(3me one of their appointment. 
 
 eth.^The parlies mutually agree to be governed by "Hedge's Rules of Logic" in this 
 discussion, as follows: 
 
 "Rule 1st. — The term in which the question in debate is expressed, and the precise 
 point at issue, should be so clearly defined, that there can be no misunderstanding respecting 
 them. 
 
 " Rule 2nd. — The parties should mutually consider each other as standing on a footing 
 of equality in respect to the subject in debate. Bach should regard the other as possessing 
 equal ,l^ents, knowledge, and desire for truth, with himself, and that it is possible therefore 
 that 'lie jnay be in the wrong, and his adversary in the right. 
 
 fc "VlRule 3rd. — All expressions which are unmeanuig, or without effect, in regard to the 
 feet in debate, should be strictly avoided. All expressions may be considered as unmean- 
 fwhich contribute nothing to the proof of the question, such as desultory remarks, and 
 amatory expressions, all tecknical a/rnbigmties and equivocal es^ess/kma. 
 
 " Rule 4th. — Personal reflection on an adversary should in no instance be indulged in- 
 Whatever his private character, his foibles are not to be named, nor alluded to in a contro- 
 versy. Personal reflections are not only destitute of effect in respect to the question in dis- 
 cussion, but they are productive of real evil. 
 
 " Rule 6th. — No one has a right to accuse his adversary of indirect motives, 
 
 "Rule 6th. — The consequences of any doctrine are not to be charged on*. him who 
 maintains it, unless he expressly avows them. 
 
 "Rule 7th. — As truth and not victory is the professed object of controversy, whatever 
 proofs may be on either side should be examined with fawnes,s and candor, and any attempt 
 to ensnare an adversary by arts, or sophistry, or to lesson the force of his reasoning by wit, 
 caviling, er ridicule, is a violation of the rules of honorable controversy." 
 
 The following are the propositions agreed upon by disputants, and their, 
 
 . order : — 
 
 Prop. 1st. The Bible teaches that, the coming of 
 Christ to judge the world is now past. 
 
 J. L. Shinn affirms. 
 
 Prop. 2nd. . The Bible teaches the literal resurrection 
 of the body from the grave. 
 
 M. H. Forscutt affirms. 
 
 Signed, M: H. FOESCUTT. 
 
 J. L. SHINN. 
 
DISCUSSION BETWEEN 
 
 M. H. FORSCUTT AND J. L. SHINN. 
 
 ■PROPOSITION FIRST. 
 "The Bible teaches that the coming of Christ to judge the world, is now 
 past." J. L. Shinn, affirms; M. H. Forscutt, denies. 
 
 Elder J. L. Shinn, in his opening speech, said : 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I never enter into theological discussion without feeling my weakness and 
 my inability; but I am nevertheless proud on this occasion, that I have to meet 
 my worthy brother, in whom there is reposed the utmost confidence, in view of 
 his past efforts. From all that I had heard along the road from my home to 
 this place, of the giant powers of my brother, I began to feel that I should be 
 but a mere David in this contest; but I believe, being armed with the imple- 
 ments of truth, that God will empower the sling of David. 
 
 I have nothing to lose in this discussion; for I conceive the object to be 
 to gain knowledge of the truth, rather than victory. Truth never lost anything 
 by debate or criticism, and it never can. In order that the lines may be dis- 
 tinctly drawn, and our position clearly understood by this congregation, I take 
 the privilege here, to state what I conceive to be the popular view upon the 
 subject before us for discussion. I am willing to admit that my brother has an 
 advantage in this discussion; viz; the popular view taken by the people is in 
 his favor. | 
 
 I now state the popular view upon the subject of judgment. The popular 
 view of the coming of Christ is, that his coming in his kingdom, in power; in 
 glory; in clouds; with his angels, ro render judgment upon mankind according 
 to their works, will be a literal, personal coming at the end of the mediatorial 
 reign; or at the end of the world, in connection with the resurrection of the 
 dead, when all the dead will be congregated together and judged; yea, and re- 
 judged in a day; and this is represented as the final judgment. Upon this I 
 read from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, of the Church of Latter Day 
 Saints, section 76, par. 4. 
 
 " These are they who shall go away Into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and 
 his angels, and the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; * * *. And 
 this is thB gospel, the glad tidings which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us, 
 that he came into the world ; even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of 
 the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; that through 
 him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power, and made by him; who 
 
« FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who 
 deny the Son after the Pather hath revealed him; wherefore he saves all except them; they 
 shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal pun- 
 ishment." 
 
 Again, sec. 45,. par. 7: . 
 
 " But before the arm of the Lord shall fall, an angel shall sound his trump, and the saints 
 that have slept, shall come forth to meet me in the clouds; wherefore, if ye have slept in peace 
 blessed are you, for as ye now behold me and know that 1 am, even so shall ye come unto me 
 and your souls shall live, and your redemption shall be perfected, and the' saints shaU come 
 forth from the four quarters of the earth." 
 
 Par. 10: "And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew; no law 
 shall have part in the first resurrection ; and it shall be tolerable for them ; and Satan shall be 
 bound that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men. And at that day when 
 I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten vir- 
 gins; for they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for 
 their guide, and have not been deceived ; verily, I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down , 
 and cast into the fire." 
 
 Again, sec. 18, par. 2 : 
 
 " Again it is written eternal damnation ; wherefore it is more express than other scrip- 
 lures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory ; 
 wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine 
 apostles. I speak unto you who" are chosen in this thing, even as otte, that you may enter into 
 my rest; for behold, the mystery of Godliness, how great is it? For, behold, I am endless, 
 and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for endless is my 
 name ; wherefore — Eternal punishment is God's punishment. Endless punishment is God's 
 punishment. "Wherefore, I command you to" repent, and keep the commandments which you 
 have received by the hand ot my servant Joseph. Smith, Jr., in my name." 
 
 I am to affirm in this debate an opposite theory from the one already ad- 
 vanced. I am to affirm that the Bible teaches, that the coming of Christ to 
 judge the world is now past. By his coming, I mean his revealment, his pres- 
 ence in power ; his coming in his kingdom, in power, in glory, in clouds,, with 
 his angels;. to judge the world, and reward mankind according to their works. 
 
 From "Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, I give the following, on the Greek 
 word Crisis, it being the same so often translated judge : 
 
 " Crisis, from the root of Jrfco, to separate, to determine, to decide. First : In medical sci- 
 ence, the change of a disease which indicates its event; that change which indicates recovery 
 or death. It is sometimes used to designate the excretion of something noxious from the 
 body, as of the noxious fluids in a fever. Second : (Greek) Kriiw, (Latin) Cream, to separate, 
 to judge, to decree, to condemn. The decisive state of things, or the point of time when an 
 affair is arrived at its height, and must soon terminate, or suffer a material change." — See 
 "Webster on Crisis, and also on Crime. 
 
 Once more, I remark, that the Day of Judgment began with and is the 
 day of Christ's meditorial reign. It will have an end when that reign is finished, 
 and the kingdom delivered up to Grod, even the Father ; and will end with the 
 destruction of every evil, and the purification of all souls: 
 
 By the word world, in the proposition, I mean mankind in general ; but we 
 here give, as the Bible definition of the word judgment,, the scriptural laws, cr 
 commandments of God to the Jews, found in Deuteronomy 7 : 11, 12. 
 
 "Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, 
 which I command thee this day, to do them. "Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken 
 to these judgments, and keep and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the cov- 
 enant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers." 
 
 Second, as descriptive of punishment ; Isaiah 34 : 4, 5 : 
 
 " And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together 
 as a scroll : and all their host shall fall do wn as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling 
 fig from the fig-tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven : behold it shall come down 
 upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse to judgmerd." , 
 
F0R8CUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 7 
 
 Isaiah 5:9: "In mine ears said the Lord of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall he deso- 
 late, even great and fair, without inhabitant." 
 
 Isaiah 32 : 1 : " Behold a Zing shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in 
 
 Third, — Descriptive of government, rule : 
 
 1 Samuel 8:5: "And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy 
 ways; now make us a king to judge us like all the nations." 
 
 Judges 16 : 31 : " Then his brethren and aE the house' of his father came down, anft took 
 him, and brought him up, and buried him between Zorak and Eshtaol in the burying-place of 
 Manoah his father. And he [Samson] judged Israel twenty years." 
 
 Acts 24: 10: "Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, an- 
 swered, Forasmuch as I know that thoii hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I 
 do the more cheerfully answer for myself." 
 
 I presume that this explanation of the subject will be deemed sufficient. I 
 now allege my first argument; namely, that God judges in the earth. Here I 
 propose to establish a precedent in favor of the thought of Christ's judging the 
 world ; or of that judgment being pjst, my brother ; i. e., the coming of Christ 
 to judge. • 
 
 Proverbs 11:31: "Behold the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth; much more 
 the wicked and the sinner." 
 
 Genesis 15: 13, 14: "And he said unto Abrarn, know of a surety that thy seed shall be 
 a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them ; and they shall afflict them four 
 hundred years ; and also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge ; and afterward [now, 
 mark it, afterward, — after they are judgedl, shall they come out with great substance." 
 
 Ezekiel 21: 28-30: "And thou, sgn of man,.prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God 
 concerning the Ammonites, and concerning their reproach ; even say thou. The sword, the sword 
 is drawn : for the slaughter it is furbished, to consume because of tjie gUttering : while they see 
 vanity unto thee, while they divine a, lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that 
 are slain, -of the wicked, Whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end. Shall I 
 cause it to return into his sheath ? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, 
 in the land of thy nativity." 
 
 Psalm 58:11: "So that a man shall say. Verily there is a reward for the righteous : verily, 
 he is a God that judgeth in the earth." 
 
 Ps. 105:*?: "He is the Lord our God; his judgments are'in all the earth." 
 
 Eocles. 3:16, 11 : "And moreover, I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wick- 
 edness was there ; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there. I said in my heart, 
 God shall judge the righteous and the wicked ; for there is a time there for every purpose and 
 for every work." 
 
 • Prov. 7:11: "When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish : and the hope of 
 unjust men perisheth." 
 
 Jeremiah 9 : 24: "But let him that glorieth, glory in this that he understandeth and know- 
 eth me, that I am the Lord which exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness in the 
 earth." 
 
 My brother will plqase notice the tense here, "I am the Lord which exer- 
 cise," in the present tense, "loving kindness and judgment in the earth." If you 
 will turn to Deuteronomy, twenty-eighth chapter, you will there see the bless- 
 ings promised by God to the obedient, and the punishments promised by him to 
 the disobedient. I read Deuteronomy twenty-eighth, from the first to the sixty- 
 eighth : 
 
 "And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord 
 thy God, to 9bserve and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the 
 Lord thy God will set thee on high, above all nations of the earth ; and aU these blessings 
 shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy 
 God. Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field. Blessed shall 
 be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase 
 of thy kine, and the fioeks of thy sheep. Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store. Blessed 
 shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out. The 
 Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face; they 
 shall come out against thee one "way, and flee before thee seven ways. The Lord shall com- 
 mand the blessing upon thee in thy stbre-liouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto ; ■ 
 and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee." 
 
8 FORSGUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 I now omit from the twenty-ninth to the fifty-cighth: 
 
 "If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, 
 nhatthou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD; then the- Lord 
 
 will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long 
 ■ continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance. Moreover, he will bring upon thee 
 
 all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee. Also 
 ;«very sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the 
 
 Lord bring upon tliee, until thou be destroyed." i 
 
 This fixes the fact, my respected congregation, that God rewards mankind 
 
 in this earth, in this life ; and in this connection I call your attention to Isaiah 
 
 twenty-sixth, ninth : 
 
 ' ""With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I 
 seek thee early; for when thy judgments are m the earth, the inhabitauts of 'the earth will 
 learn righteousness." 
 
 Ps. 61:4:: "0 let the nations be glad and siiVg for joy; for thou shalt judge the people 
 righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah." 
 
 Ps. 62: 12: "Also unto thee, Lord, belongeth mercy; for thou renderest to every man 
 accordmg as his works shall be." 
 
 Ps. 119:15: "I know, Lord, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness 
 hast afflicted me." 
 
 Bzekiel 3G : 19 : "And I scattered them among tlie heathen, and they were dispersed 
 through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them." 
 
 "I JUDGED TIIEM." — Heb: 2:2. 
 
 Jly brother will remember the point I make here. Paul says to the He- 
 brews, "For if the word spoken by angels," (the law was given by angels), "was 
 steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence 
 of reward;" this settles the matter forever, in regard to the judgment of the old 
 world up to the time of the Jlessiali's reign. AVe read here from the "Christian 
 System," the views of that noted and scholarly man, Alexander Campbell: 
 
 " 'God made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions,' Adam rebelled. 
 The natural man became preternatural. Tlie animal triumplied over the human elements of 
 his nature. Sin was born on eaiili. Tlie crown fell from his head. The glory of the Lord 
 departed from him. He felt his guilt and trembled ; he saw his nakedness and blushed. The 
 bright candle of the Lord became a dimly smoking taper. He was led to judgment. He was 
 tried and condemned." — Christian System, page 28. 
 
 Once more ; Genesis 28 : 17 : 
 
 "And he was afraid, and said; How dreadful is tins place; this is none other but the 
 house of God, and this is the gate of heaven." 
 
 Now we notice, that the judgment canie upuii Adam, ih the day of transgress- 
 ion, as we learn from Cam|5bell in his criticism upon this subject. We remark, 
 that these arguments are abundant, showing that God judges in the earth, and 
 God would not remove his judgment seat from the earth, without giving his 
 children due notice; and this he has nowhere done. I will select here some of 
 the most remarkable instances of crime recorded in the Bible, showing that they 
 have received punishment in this life; in this world. The case of Cain. The 
 testimony clearly shows, that he was judged and punished in this life for the 
 crime which ho committed, in the murder of his brother. 
 
 Gen. 4:11: "And now mi thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to 
 receive thy brother's blood from thy liand. When thou tillest the ground, it shall not hence- 
 forth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth." 
 We calljjyour attention here to Genesis 3 : 14 to 19 inclusive : 
 
 "And the Lord God said unto the serpent. Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed 
 above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust 
 shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: and I will put enmity between thee and the woman 
 and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 
 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow, and thy conception- in sorrow 
 shalt thou bring forth children ; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 9 
 
 thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and 
 liast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: oursed i3 
 the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all tlie days of thy life; thorns also and 
 thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field: in the sweat of 
 thy face shalt thou eat bfead, till thou return unto the ground:' for out of it wast thou taljen; 
 
 for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." 
 
 '* 
 
 We notice here the fact, that God did judge mankind, according to his pur- 
 poses from that period or time; and there was in this instance, an immmediate 
 judgment and punishment. In regard to the punishment of the Antediluvians, 
 we call your attention to Genesis 7 : 11 to 24 : 
 
 " In the six liundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of 
 tlie month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows 
 •of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. In 
 the self same day entered Noali, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, smd 
 Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into tlie ark. They, and every beast 
 after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon 
 the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. And 
 they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and tWo of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. 
 And they that went in, went in male and female, of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and 
 the Lord shut him in. An* the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, 
 and bear up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and 
 were increased greatly upon tlie earth ; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 
 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth ; and all the high hills, that were 
 under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and 
 the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, 
 and of oatitle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every 
 man : . all in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And 
 every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and 
 •cattle, and the creeping things, and tlie fowl of the heaven; and tliey were destroyed from 
 the earth : and Noah only remained alive, and they that were witli him in the ark. And the 
 waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days." 
 
 Now we notice again, the ptinishment is in this life. There is not a word 
 said about any other punishment; about a future day of judgment beyond this 
 life; if there is a future day of judgment beyond this life, it is my brother's 
 •duty to show it; and in this connection I present again tie point upon which I 
 rely. The apostle Paul says, that every transgression and disobedience redeived, 
 in the past tense, a just recompense of reward, and he was doubtless correct in 
 this statement, as the evidence I have just adduced plainly shows. 
 
 Punishment of Sodom; Genesis 19 : 23 to 26 inclusive. 
 
 "The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. Then the Lord rained 
 mpon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heavelh ; and he 
 overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which 
 grew upon the ground. But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar 
 •ofaalfe" 
 
 Is it not remarkable, that all these accounts of punishment, leave out a judg- 
 ment beyond this life. 
 
 Second Peter, 2 : 4 to 6 inclusive : 
 
 "For if God sjiared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered 
 tliem into chains of darkntess, to be reserved unto judgment; and spared not the old world, but 
 saved Noah, the eightli person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the 
 world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemning 
 them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should hve ungodly." 
 
 Again we notice the correctness of the apostle's statement in Hebrews 2:2: 
 "Every transgression and disobedience, received a just recompense of reward." 
 '■If the word spoken by angels was steadfast," Jiow shall we escape now, a Just 
 recompense of reward, "if we neglect so great salvation, which in the beginning 
 began to be spoken by the Lord, and was conferred unto us by them that heard 
 him." 
 
10 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 Punishment of the Jews ; Lamentations 4 : 1 to 12 : 
 
 "How is the gold become dim I how is the most fine gold changed! the stones of the 
 sanctuary are poured out in the top of every street. The precious sons of Zion, comparable to 
 fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter ! 
 Even the sea-monsters draw out the breast, they give suck to their yonng ones : the daughter of 
 my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness. The tongue of the sucking child 
 cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man break- 
 eth it unto them. They that did feed delicately are desolate in -the streets: they that were 
 brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills. For thp ptinishment of the iniquity pf the daughter 
 of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in 
 a moment, and no hands stayfed on her. Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were 
 whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire : 
 •their visage is blacker than a coal; they are not known in the streets: their skin cleaveth to 
 their bones : it is withered, it is become like a stick. They that be slain with the sword are 
 better than they that be slain with hunger : for these pine away, stricken through for want of 
 the fruits of the field. The hands of the pitiful women -have sodden their own children: they 
 were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. The Ldrd hath accomplish- 
 ed his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath 
 devoured the foundations thereof" 
 
 Ezekiel 22 : 11-22 : "And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying. Son of man, the 
 Jiouse of Israel is to me become dross : pll they- are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst 
 of the furnace ; they are even the dross of silver. Therefore, thus saith the Lord God, Because 
 ye are all- become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the. midst of Jerusalem. As 
 they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow 
 the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in mine fury, and I will 
 leave you there, and melt you; yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my 
 wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof." 
 
 The moderator here called Time, and Elder Shinn took his seat. 
 
 Elder Forscutt's reply to Elder Shinn's first argument, was as follows : 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: ■ 
 
 It becomes my duty too, as well as" the duty of Elder Shinn, to explain 
 clearly, or as clearly as I may be able to do, the position which I expect to take 
 in this discussion. 
 
 At the outset, I would express to you the same thought that he did; name- 
 ly, that our desire should be the obtaining of truth, rather, than victory; and 
 with this as the object of the disputants and of the audience, the discussion is 
 sure to be productive of good to us all. If we let no desire other than the one 
 expressed arise over this discussion, the debate will terminate in feelings that 
 will meet my mind most heartily. To this end .may good order be established, 
 and remain with us. 
 
 In stating before you the position which I expect to take, I do so by read- 
 ing from "The Epitome," a printed fly-sheet declarative of our faith and'doc- 
 trines, article sixth, as follows: 
 
 " We believe in the doctrine of eternal judgment, which provides that men shall be judged) 
 rewarded, or punished, according to the degree of good or evil they shall have done." 
 
 I also read for your information and mine, in brother Shinn's handwriting, 
 the proposition we are now discussing: '-The Bible teaches that the coming 
 of Christ to judge the world, is now past." This, Elder Shinn affirms. 
 
 I have listened with some degree of pleasure, and with some little degree of 
 astonishment, to the line of argument adopted by our friend in presenting the 
 "evidence" which he has collated, to prove that the coming of Christ to judge 
 the world, is now past. Nearly all the evidences that he has produced, (and they 
 have been quite voluminous), from the scriptures, have been in support of a 
 theory that none of us will dispute, that God's judgments are pa'st and present, 
 as well as future. That the judgments referred to as having taken place in the 
 past ages, -were judgments which came upon God's people, upon those whom 
 
FORSOUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 11 
 
 God had before time blessed with peace, as a punishment for transgression, is, I 
 think,clearly manifest. They may be properly denominated temporal judgments, 
 or national judgments. The apostle Paul reasons thus upon this subject: 
 
 " Some men's sins are open before hand, going before to judgment: and some they follow- 
 after."— 1 Tim. 6 : 24. ■ 
 
 It seems that our friend has been collating, and presenting to us in evidence, 
 cases wherein the sins that men had committed, to a very great degree, went be- 
 forehand to judgment. 
 
 I believe that, in many instances, the. transgressions of God's people go be- 
 forehand to judgment; and that God imparts to them the blessing of pardon 
 for their obedience, or they suffer the penalty for their transgression. That they 
 may receive this pardon, or suffer this penalty, their transgressions go before- 
 hand to judgment. Some would have us believe, that they may be judged twice 
 by God for the same offense ; but I can not believe that God is so unjust as this . 
 theory would make him out to be ; first to punish for sin in this life, and still 
 lay up. their sin against those punished, in order that it may be punished by 
 him again in the life to flbme. 
 
 1 think, however, that the evidences presented to us teach some very good 
 things ; among the rest, the principle that when God pronounces a judgment 
 upon a people, that judgment is sure to follow, if the conditions upon which the 
 judgment is predicated remain attached to the people. 
 
 The doctrine therein contained is in harmony with the doctrine of "free 
 agency," or moral agency, if you please. The doctrine of man's agency must 
 be received and enforced, if need be, as a part of the statutory law on which 
 ■judgment is to be administered; otherwise, there could not justly come to man 
 any privileges for obedience, or any punishment for disobedience. God reserved 
 woes which he pronounced .against Israel, should they transgress against the law, 
 and promised them blessings should they obey the law ; and true to this princi- 
 ple, recognizing their moral agency, the things promised or threatened came 
 upon them, whenever the conditions upon which they were promised or threat- 
 ened attached unto them. This rule^we should keep in view while noticing the 
 argument of bur brother. 
 
 Now, just so sure as the woes pronounced by God to be realized in this life 
 were realized, just so sure the woes pronounced by him to be realized in the life 
 to come, will also be realized. The promises are of the same nature, and come 
 from the same source ; therefore they will receive a like fulfillment. Many woes 
 have been pronounced against individuals, that have not been realized in this 
 life, and either must.be fulfilled in the life to come, or will not be realized at all. 
 
 What the brother has read from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants is 
 very instructive to me, and the testimonies therein make clear to the understand- 
 ing the views held by the Latter Day Saints respecting this doctrine of eternal 
 judgment. The accent placed by the brother upon the words, "eternal," "end- 
 less," etc., is very proper, and will serve as a good introduction to the thoughts 
 I "wish to present before you. 
 
 If these words fprm the pith of the sentence in which they are found, then 
 we must find what original meaning the words have attached unto them in this 
 book ; (taking up the Book of Covenants) ; and I conclude that the extract read 
 for us is sufficient to make this known: "Eternal punishment is God's punish- 
 ment. Endless punishment is God's punishment," and the reason for this is, we 
 are told, that "endless is my name," therefore the punishment administered by 
 him is punishment by the endless one, or endless punishment. 
 
 Now, while we believe, with almost all christians, in future judgment and 
 future punishment, we do not agree with them in believing, that the punishment 
 
12 FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISGUSSIOK. 
 
 sentenced by that judgment shall be one that shall last throughout what is called • 
 all the eternities of God. . . ' 'I 
 
 We believe that that punishment is eternal punishment, because administer- .^^ 
 ed hy the Eternal One. 
 
 We believe it is endless punishment, because it is administered hi/ ilie Jlind- 
 less One. 
 
 This punishment may last an age, or it may be like the- punishment of 
 Jonah, spoken of in the Bible, where the word "foi-ever" is used, that lasted only 
 three days. — Jonah 2 : 6. Whatever it may be that it represents, whether a 
 long or a short period, it is, in the sense in which we apply it, an eternal^ pun- 
 ishment, because administered by an Endless, Eternal One. This rule will be 
 found of great service, in the examination and consideration of our views of the 
 scriptures on this question. 
 
 I do not exactly agree with my brother, respecting the judgments of God 
 being administared exclusively upon this earth, and that therefore, there is noth, 
 ing attaching to, or explanatory of, a future punishment. 
 
 The argument drawn from the statement, "I am a God that judges in the 
 earth," we believe to be a very good one. God does judge in the earth. We 
 believ^ with Brother Shinn that God's judgments, will be administered in this 
 earth; but we differ from him in the thought, that these judgments are all ad- 
 ministered while in the mortal state. We believe that mankind will be called 
 forth again, and that then the judgments of God will berendered and come up- 
 on them according to the deeds they shall have done. This judgment we, too, 
 believe will be rendered on earth, not in heaven. There is a difference between 
 as only as to the time when, and the conditions upon which this judgment shall 
 foe administered. 
 
 God's language is peculiar. "Every day, every year." He may be angry 
 with the wicked every day or every week, and yet his'judgment may be deferred , 
 until a stated time, instead of punishing them every day, or every week. Though 
 the nations are under condemnation every day, and some of the individuals in 
 them receive punishment of conscience every dayj' yet God's judgments, other 
 than this by the conscience, may be deferred. This judgment we may call a re- 
 proof of conscience, which is administered every day. Hence, taking these 
 thoughts into consideration, we can see how, without the use of any especial 
 figure of speech, God is angry with the wicked every day. His anger is mani- 
 fested in the threat of punishment', and yet this punishment may be turned away 
 J)y seeking and gaining the righteousness which is by faith, showing conclusive- 
 ly, that the punishment is not administered every day. 
 
 In the fifty-ninth chapter of Isaiah, the Lord deprecates the sad degener- 
 acy of Israel, in that' justice, judgment and truth have all departed, and equity 
 ceased to be ministered among them. He then declates with a beauty, a force, 
 ' and a grandeur, the unchangeable decree of his heart, to accomplish that in 
 which Israel has failed, both as to justice and judgment, as well as to salvation, 
 — aye, and as to vengeance also. Let us read this grand array of purpose in 
 Deity: 
 
 " And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: there- 
 fore his arm brought salvation unto him: and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put 
 oa righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation upon hil head ; and he put on the 
 garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak. According to their 
 deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to hia enemies; to the 
 islands he will repay recompense." — Vs. 16-18. 
 
 The reference to Isaiah 32 : 1, is a happy one for our view of the future 
 judgment; but a damaging one for Elder Shinn's, taken with the context in 
 thirty-first and remaining portion of thirty-second chapters, as it places the judg- 
 
FORSOUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 13 
 
 ment at the time of Israel's redemption, instead of now, as Elder Shinn argues. 
 We quote from 31 : 3-5 inclusive : 
 
 " When the Lord shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is 
 ' holpen shall fall down, and they shall all fail together. For thus hath the Lord spoken rrnto 
 me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is 
 caUed forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase liimself for the noise of 
 them: so shall the Lord of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof. 
 As birds flying; so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; 
 and passing over he will preserve it." 
 
 And from thirty-second chapter, thirteenth to seventeenth verses inclusive : 
 "Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns and briers; yea, upon all the houses 
 of joy in the joyous city: because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall 
 be left ; the forts and towers shall be for dens forever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks ; 
 until the Spirit' be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and 
 the fruitful field be counted a forest. Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and i%ht- 
 eousness remain in the fruitful field. And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the 
 effect of righteousness, jttieiness owd asiuronce FOR EVER." Isa. 32:13-17. 
 
 The quotation made by our brother from Psalm 58 : 11 is terribly explained 
 by verse ten : > ,„ 
 
 "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance : he shall wash liis feet in the blood 
 of the wicked." 
 
 Those made from Acts 24 : 10 and Proverbs I pass by, the one as irrelevan*, 
 the other as answered by my answer to Isaiah. Isaiah 32 : 1. 
 
 The brother asserts that, "His judgments are fixed in the earth." This I 
 think we shall understand more fully, when we realize how his judgments, so' 
 fixed, are to be administered upon the earth. Again, and in another and an im- 
 portant sense, His judgments are eternal ; because the punishment that we shalJ 
 receive, will probably afiect our condition for ever. .God will not add stripe to 
 stripe, but the punishment we shall receive, because we have disobeyed the law 
 of God, in its effects never can pass away, so as to requite to us for time and 
 opportunity lost. 
 
 The brother has told us, in connection with the quotation which he has 
 made, that there is nothing said about future punishment ; and argues from this, 
 that there is no s^t day, in which God will judge the world. He says that in 
 the case of Adam there is no intimation of any future punishment. Well; 
 grant it, for argument's sake. The words spoken to Adam, were concerning what- 
 was then his existence, his dwelling then on this earth; consequently, to that 
 place and the conditions upon which he might, dwell there, they only related. 
 The law, with its blessings and penalties, related to his dwelling on the earth ; 
 to his possession in the earth; to his inheritance on the earth. The whole prom- 
 ise, the whole comrnand, the whole condition or conditions, in the case of Adam 
 referred to the earth, and to the earth only. We think, therefore, that no par- 
 ticular argument can be logically drawn from this absence of reference to a dis- 
 tinct future state. 
 
 We are cited to the case of Cain. We will notice the testimony of the- 
 Scriptures in this case; which is, that after Cain had murdered his brother, God 
 talked with him, and pronounced upon him his curse ; to which Cajn replied : 
 
 " My punishment is greater than I can bear. * * * And it shall come to pass that, 
 every one that seeth me shall slay me. And the Lord said unto him. Therefore whosoever 
 slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him seven-fold." 
 
 Let me here ask the question, What could be a seven-fold punishment ? 
 If the death that came to Abel was a punishment due to sin, according to the 
 generally received idea ; if Cain had to be a vagabond in life, and afterwards die, 
 whence comes the punishment that could be seven-fold greater, if there be no 
 future punishment? Cain seems to have had prosperity principally in this life. 
 
14 FORSOUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUS SIOJST. 
 
 in so far as temporal things are concerned, 'tis true, yet his punishment was 
 severe, and in so far as his conscience condemned him, and banishment irom 
 Crod's presence deprived him of spiritual blessings, almost insupportable to one i 
 born to such high honors, Yet he could die but one death, or suffer but one 
 lifetime. If then there be no future punishment, how could there be punish- 
 ment seven-fold greater than his? How could it be multiplied seven times m 
 the life that now is ? • • • i +1, 
 
 Our attention is called to the testimony given by Paul in his epistle to the 
 Hebrews, 2 :2, 3: "For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, a,nd every 
 transgression and disobedience received," — (our brother says the word is in the, 
 past tense that refers to rewards ; but we have one here in the future tense im- 
 mediately following), — "a just recompense of reward; how shall we escape, if we 
 neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, 
 and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him." 
 
 Here we notice first that those who transgressed against the law which was 
 given by angels, were visited with punishments according to their transgressio^. 
 If that brought to the transgressor a just recompense of reward, how much more 
 80 shall it be with us, if we neglect the law of our Redeemer,that higher law, the 
 law of life in'Christ Jesus. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great sal- 
 vation." ■ ' _ , _ 
 
 If there be no punishment to be received, after or beyond this life, what 
 great salvation is referred to? What is the use of this adjective "great," in this 
 connection, if there is to be no salvation hereafter, which some will "neglect" to 
 obtain. 
 
 We all feel and know that there must be a dividing line drawn, between 
 this great salvation, or the condition of those who receive it, and the condition 
 of those who do not. A dlaSs is represented as having been called to this great 
 salvation, and in considering this we naturally ask, What is this great salvatioji? 
 Was it the salvation given under the law ? No, for the apostle tells us, that 
 that could never make the comers thereunto perfect. The blessings promised 
 under the law were chiefly earthly, pertaining to the earth — ^blessings of the 
 heaven abov6,'and of the deep bene^h; blessings on their lands, their flocks, 
 .a,nd their herds; everything which pertained to this life, wtis promised under 
 the law of carnal commandments. This "great salvation" must, then, be above 
 this present condition of things on the earth, and must be in the world to come. 
 If the reward is to be in a life to come, then the judgment must belong to that 
 life also, the result of which is to be condemnation or salvation. 
 
 If there is no greater salvation than the one given to us in this life, in the 
 ■condition we are in upon the earth, there is, contradistinctively, no great salva- 
 tion. 
 
 We pass alopg a little farther, and we find in the tenth chapter of Hebrews, 
 what the apostle understood, thus; .at least, I think so. Beginning with the 
 twenty-third verse and ending with the twenty-fifth verse, we read : 
 
 " Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering ; for he is faithful that prom- 
 lised : and let us consider one another, to provoke unto love, and to good works : not forsaking the 
 assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is ; but exhorting one another ; and so 
 much the more, as ye see the day approaching." 
 
 The definite article the, points out some especial day, — "as ye see the day 
 
 approaching." The Book of Covenants is right, Brother Shinn, for the next 
 
 verses describe exactly the class who shall go away into everlasting punishment: 
 
 " For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there re- 
 
 maineth no more sacrifiee for sins, Iriii a certain fearfvl hdldngfor of judgmekt and riERT in- 
 dignation which shall devour the adversaries." — vs. 26, 27. 
 
FOR^CUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 15 
 
 'Here, sir, are the conditions, and the kind of punishment attached ; name- 
 ly, the destructioA of life; for we again read,. twenty-,eighth, also twenty-ninth 
 to thirty-first verse, 
 
 " He that despised Moses' law, died without mercy under two or three witnesses : of how 
 much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under 
 foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, 
 an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him. that 
 hath said. Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again. 
 The LordSKALLjv4gehi3 people. It is afearfvithingtofaa into the hands of the living God." 
 That is, it is fearful because it is the Lord shall judge his people ; it is a 
 fearful thing to fall- into his hands, because he shall have power to pronounce 
 upon those who do so, -condemnation ; it is fearful because he shall not only be 
 judge to condemn; but shall also inflict upon them the punishment which attach- 
 es to those condemned. 
 
 We now call your attention, for a moment, to Hebrews 9 : 27 : 
 
 " And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the jttdgment." 
 We need not be told that the scriptures do not teach that there is a judj;-- 
 ment and punishment after death; for here is the direct statement that, "As it 
 is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." Why? Be- 
 cause, sir, at present the judgment is but a partial one, in a measure com- 
 pensatory, 'tis true, yet imperfect; but in future there shall be a just and a per- 
 fect judgment rendered. We may argue as we please, but beyond question, the 
 gospel of Christ contains provisions for a future judgment, necessitating bnth 
 future rewards and punishments. 
 
 If there is no judgment beyond this life, there are a great many good peo- 
 ple who go unrewarded, and a great many bad people who go unpunished; for, 
 on the one hand, there are a great many good people who pass their lives in com- 
 parative wretchedness, and end their career in misery; while on the other hand, 
 there are a great many wicked people who occupy the first position in soci. ty, 
 even in our land. Some of these are sent to Congress; .others are sent here and 
 sent there, as ambassadors, plenipotentiaries, envoys ordinary anti extraordinary ; 
 others are elevated to governorships, and to the highest ofiices in the gift of a 
 too-confiding and deceived people. Some of these, too, like those of olden times, 
 are ddubly dyed in wickedness, of whom the people become, or were made wil- 
 ling or unwilling slaves. Were we to receive in this life a recompense for our 
 deeds, I wonder that these men are so honored that they do not receive it. If 
 this life brings the reward of the christian ; if it were true that every man's sins 
 are here judged, or every man here rewarded for his acts of righteousness, we 
 should not find so great a disparity between the manner in which this is done. 
 Here the wicked sometimes flourish like the green bay tree, while the righteous 
 suffer ignominy^ poverty and reproach ; yet we learn that God will render to 
 every man according to his deeds. The expression is in the future tense, 
 "will render." ■• 
 
 For the testimony of Jesus Christ, upon this subject, we refer you to the 
 twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew, thirty-first to forty-sixth verses, to a sermon or 
 statement made by him to his disciples, concerning the last days, wherein is ex- 
 preSsed the same thought to which we have just referred. It is written of him 
 in Isaiah 40 : 10, that when he shall come, "His reward is [shall be] with him, 
 and his work before him." In Matthew it is written : 
 
 " When the Son of Man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then 
 shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shaU ie gathered all nations: and he 
 shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep frorn the goats : and he 
 shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Tlien shall the King say unto 
 them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the. kingdom prepared for you 
 
16 FOR&OUTT AND SHINN'S DISOUSEION. 
 
 from the fouudatiqn of the world : for I was an hungered, and yo gave me meat : I Was thirsty, 
 and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I 
 was sick, and ye visited me : I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shaU the righteous 
 answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave 
 thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 
 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee ? And the King shall answer 
 and say unto them. Verily, I say unto you. Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least 
 of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on his 
 left hand. Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 
 for Ijjwas an hungered, and ye gave me no meat : I was thirsty, -and ye gave me no drink : I 
 was a stranger, and ye took me not in : naked, and ye clothed me not : sick, and in prison, and 
 ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, 'Lord, when saw we_ thee an 
 hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto 
 thee? Then shaU he answer them, saying, I say unto you. Inasmuch as ye did it not to one 
 of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punish- 
 ment: [to endure God's wrath or whatever it maybe]; but the righteous into life eternal." 
 
 The tense is future; the time, when the Son of man shall come in his glory. 
 We gather from this what we supposed to be perfectly plain, namely, that there 
 will be a judgment in the future, in which the righteous shall receive a lawful 
 reward, and the wicked a just punishment. One class, everlasting life; and the 
 other, everlasting punishment. How, we ask, can this everlasting punishment, ' 
 and everlasting life, be administered, if there be no future judgment? We might 
 as well spend our lives in comparative ease and comfort, and care not for the life 
 hereafter, if there be no future judgment, no future recompense for righteous- 
 ness, or just punishment for wickedness. We might as well seek and take all 
 the privileges of men on earth, if there be no future judgment. We might as 
 well enjoy all the pleasures of this life, if there be no reward hereafter. If there 
 is no judgment to come beyond this life, then justice will have been frustrated, 
 and the purposes of God will have failed. 
 
 The Moderator's call of Time closed Elder Forscutt's argument. 
 
 Elder Shinn's sepond argument, was as follows : 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I confess I admire the frank, candid, manly maqner of my opponent. I 
 repeat that I feel myself proud to meet so able an opponent, as I believe my 
 brother to be. I do, therefore, sincerely hope, that this discussion may be con- 
 ducted throughout, in the most harmonious manner, and then it will be produc- 
 tive of much good, as I doubt not it will be, if we manifest that degree of 
 christian courtesy, we will be happy to manifest. 
 
 Some of the points made by our brother in his opening speech, which we 
 desire to notice. He admits that God's judgments are continuous; we are 
 agreed upon that point. But the words "eternal" and "temporal," it was my 
 object to introduce in my first speech, and to show that God's judgments are of 
 a temporal character, and were in the earth. The judgments and punishments, 
 administered under the Mosaic law, were of a temporal character. But again, 
 my brother attempts to show that they are to be rejudged, by first admitting a 
 judgment in this life, and then endeavoring to prove one in the life to come. 
 
 He also admits that the judgment is to be here, in this" earth, and that he" 
 does not believe they will be twice judged. How then can there be a. judgment 
 beyond this life ? Brother, persons differ with each other in their views, who 
 are not prejudiced; but let him show another judgnient beyond this life if he 
 can. Of this we might be convinced, if we could be convinced of the correct- 
 ness of his explanation in regard to the words "endless" and "eternal" being 
 synonymous. But he explains that it is endless punishment, because adminis- 
 tered by the Endless One, and says it may be for a day, a month, or a year. 
 Well, niy brother, let "endless punishment" bo of that character and I could 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 17 
 
 l)elieve in it myself; but othbrwise, I must forever object to it. It is endless, 
 fiays my brother, because administered by God, and God is endless. Everything 
 ■would be endless which God does, upon the same principle. 
 
 I have shown you that my brother acknowedged my first argument; name- 
 ly, that God's judgments are in this earth, and that there is punishment in this 
 life. I have called your attention to the fact, that he does not believe they will 
 be re-judged. Now let him come up with his re-judgment, if he can. And 
 again; if there is no punishment now, his position would be something like this. 
 You go around here to teach school ; you have a written article of agreement 
 along with you, which states the terms upon which you will teach, so much per 
 scholar. The children come, and you proceed to teach school. But mark, you 
 do not administer any punishment during the school, until the last day, when 
 you call them all up, and whip them like blazes. If there is a judgment and 
 punishment beyond this life, what is the judgment and punishment here for, 
 which my brother has admitted. But he can not prove we are judged hereafter, 
 without bringing that latter day into this discussion. 
 
 Genesis 2 : 17, my brother made a few remarks upon that. I maintain, 
 that the punishment senf" here upon Adam, was a spiritual death. In the day 
 of transgression he died. "To be carnally minded is death;" therefore, Adam 
 was punished in the day of his transgression. And it can not be shown that 
 Adam was brought before God's judgment seat, and condemned again. 
 
 Seven-fold punishment. My brother, however, said, that I declared there 
 was no future judgment. I affirmed all along through my first speech, that it 
 was your duty to show there was a day of judgment beyond this life. That was 
 what I said. I have not taken the position there is no future punishment. I 
 took the position and made the remark, it was yoiir duty to show there was a 
 day of judgment beyond this life, after the resurrection of the dead. And if 
 there is, as the brother has said, mankind are judged here, there will simply be 
 a re-judgment. 
 
 Seven-fold punishment I speak of now. I remark, that the punishment of 
 Cain was of a temporal character. It could not have been endless, according 
 to the usual acceptation of that word, otherwise he who had to sufier a seven- 
 fold punishment, would have had to suifer a seven-fold endless punishment. We 
 agree in regard to the nature of Cain's punishment, that it was merely of a tem- 
 poral character; he was to sufier physical pain and mental anguish for his trans- 
 gression. 
 
 Hebrews 10 : 2S-27, he read, and calls our attention to the 27th verse : 
 
 "But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour 
 the adrersaries." 
 
 Speaks of this death without mercy under Moses' law, and reads thirtieth 
 verse, and emphasizes thd word vengeance; when he knows, if he knows any- 
 thing, that the word vengeance means retribution. Let me call my brother's 
 attention to the thirty-seventh verse in this connection : 
 
 "For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and viill not tarry.^' 
 
 Here, my brother, we see that he that was to come and take vengeance, or 
 retribution, was to come soon, and not to tarry; but we have abundance of time 
 to canvas that ground before the close of this debate. 
 
 He calls my attention also, to Hebrews 9 : 27, 28. I read, my brother, from 
 the "Emphatic Diaglott:" 
 
 "And as it awaits the men, [Greek, tois anthropcyise], once to die, but after t!)is a judgment; 
 so ALSO the anointed one, having been once for all offered for the many, to bear away sin, 
 will appear a second time without a sin offering," etc. 
 
 He speaks about the great salvation spoken of by the Apostle, in connection 
 
18 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISGUSSION. 
 
 with, the just recompense of reward, visited upon all under the Mosaic law. I 
 believe he maintains, that as every transgression under this law, received a just 
 recompense of reward, we can not, after the gospel has come, escape a just re- 
 compense of reward. We have proved that men were judged and rewarded un- 
 der the Mosaic dispensation; so likewise shall they be, under the gospel dispen- 
 sation, for a great many considerations. He has added double force to my argu- 
 ment by showing that men shall be rewarded under the gospel dispensation. 
 That is what Ijpropose to prove in this debate. 
 
 "Also unto thee, Lord, belongeth. mercy; for tliou renderest to every man according to 
 his work,"— Pa. 62 : 12. 
 
 Mark the tense here, not wiU render, but renderest unto every man accord- 
 ing to his work. 
 
 Men are not judged, he says, in this life, and speaks of some wicked fellows 
 that have been sent to Congress, &c. My brother stands on one side, and the 
 word of the Lord on the other. "Verily, thou art a God that judgeth in the 
 earth." "Though the wicked be hand joined in hand, they shall not go unpun- 
 ished." 
 
 He calls cm- attention to Matthew 25 : 31. My brother,,. we win reach that 
 in due time. That is just the point at issue; whether this coming in power 
 and in glory has been fulfilled; and I think I shall be able to show before 
 the discussion closes, that it has been, and that is a description of the judgment 
 when he came. This I shall use as a precedent to my second argument, which 
 is, tjiat Christ's reign was to be one of judgment upon the earth. I presume my 
 brother will admit it was to be upon the earth. Daniel 2 : 31-45 : 
 
 "Thou, king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness 
 was excellent, stood before thee; and the form'thereof was terrible. This image's head was 
 of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, his legs of 
 iron, his feet pari of iron and part of clay. Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without 
 hands, which smote the image.upon his feet, that were of iron and clay, and brake them to 
 pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces to- 
 gether, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; that no place was found for 
 them : and the stone that smote the image, became a great mountain, and filled the whole 
 earth. This is the dream, and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Thou, 
 king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, powei-, and 
 strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and 
 the fowls of 'heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. 
 Thou art this^ead qf gold. And after thee shall arise- another kingdom inferior to thee, and 
 another third kii^dom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the fourth 
 kingdom shall be strong as iron: for as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things; and 
 as iron breaketh all'these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the . 
 feet and toes, part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided ; but there shall be in it of the strength 
 of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron miied with the miry clay. And as the toes of 
 the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong,. and partly 
 broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shah mingle themselves 
 with the seed of men : but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed 
 with clay."y 
 
 Now mark : ' 
 
 "And in the days of these Idngs shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall 
 never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in 
 pieces and consume aU these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Forasmuch as thou sawest 
 that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, 
 the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold'; the great God hath made known to the kmg what 
 shall come to pass hereafter; and the dream is certain and the interpretation thereof sure." 
 
 We see from this that it must be upon the earth, and that it is to be so 
 great and glorious, that it shall break in pieces and subdue all other governments 
 on the earth. 
 
 Again; Daniel t : 9-14: 
 
FORSCUTT AND SIILVN' S DISCUSSWK. 19 
 
 "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment 
 •was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was lil<e the fiery 
 flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before liim ; 
 thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before 
 him ; the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the noise 
 of the great words which the horn spake; I beheld even till the beast was slain, and liis body 
 destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had 
 their dominion taken away; yet their lives were prolonged for a season and lime. I saw in 
 night visions, and behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of lieaven, and came 
 to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given liim do- 
 minion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should servo him; 
 his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that 
 which shall not be destroyed." 
 
 Again; Daniel 4 : 34, 35 : 
 
 "And at the' end of the days, I, Uebuchadnezzar, lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and 
 mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the Most High, and I praised and honor- 
 ed him that liveth forever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is 
 from generation to generation: and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and 
 he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: 
 and none can stay his hand,^r say. What doest thou?" • 
 
 Isaiah 9:6: "For unto us a child is born, vmto us a son is given: and the government 
 shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall bo called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty 
 God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and 
 peace there shaE be no end upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom to order it, and 
 to establish it, with jiulgment and with justice, from henceforth, even forever. Tiie zeal of the 
 Lord of hosts will perform this." 
 
 That his work is to be on the earth, I refer you to Isaiah 11 : 1-9: 
 
 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out 
 of his roots; and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and under- 
 standing, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord; and 
 shall make hira of,quick understanding in the fear of the Lord; and he shall not judge after 
 the sight of his eyes, neitlier reprove after the hearing of his ears; but with righteousness 
 shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite 
 the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with ti^p breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 
 Arid righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The 
 wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall he down with the kid; and the calf 
 and tlie young lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. And tlie 
 cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat 
 straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, arid the weaned 
 child shall put his hand on the cockatrice's den." 
 
 This denotes reign upon the earth : 
 
 '■They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy moimtain; for the earth shall be full of 
 the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea." 
 
 Isaiah 42: 1-1: "BeliQld my servant,, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul de- 
 lighte,th; I have put my spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgment unto the GontiWs. 
 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed 
 shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench ; he shall bring forth judgment 
 unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth; and 
 the isles shall wait for his law. Thus saith the Lord God, he that created the heavens and 
 stretched tliem out; he tliat spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that 
 giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit, to them that walk therem: I the Lord 
 have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee 
 for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles. To open the blind eyes, to bring out 
 the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." 
 
 Jeremiah 23:5; "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,' that I will raise unto David a 
 righteous branch, and a king shall reign and prosper, and shall exeante judgment axid justice in 
 the eaHh." 
 
 Remember, my brother, this is the one in which David is to be king; it is 
 the branch, the character of David. 
 
 Matthew 4: 16, IT.— "The people wliich sat in darkness saw great light; and to them 
 
20 ' FOR SCUT T AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 which sat in the region and shadow of death, light is sprung up. From that time' Jesus be- 
 gan to preach, and to say, Eepent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." _ ^^ 
 
 Matthew 10: 7.— "And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 
 
 Mark 1: 14, 15.— "Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching 
 the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying. The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is 
 at hand; repent ye and believe the gospel." 
 
 Luke \H : 20, 21.— "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of 
 God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with obser- 
 vation; neither shall they say, Lo here, or lo there; for, behold, the kingdom of God is with- 
 in you." 
 
 I remark that among you is the marginal reading, and I believe that to be 
 the most truthful rendering that can be given of it. 
 
 Ps. 2:1-9. — "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, thou art my son; 
 this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheri- 
 tance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a 
 rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." 
 
 Once more-^ 2 Tim. 4 : 1^ : 
 
 " I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the 
 quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant ip. season, 
 ■out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctripe. For the time will 
 come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to 
 ■themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, 
 -and be turned unto fables." 
 
 When, my brother, is this judgment to take place under Messiah's reign, 
 but at his appearing and kingdom ? There is when it shall take place, and I 
 have shown beyond controversy, that his kingdom is here in this earth, that the 
 kingdom of heaven is upon the earth.] 
 
 The thought of its being established in the earth, makes clear the testimony 
 which I have read from Paul, "Who shall judge the quick and the dead at his 
 appearing and in his kingdom." Then the language is that Christ judged man- 
 kind at his appearing and his kingdom, which was eighteen hundred years ago. 
 
 I now reach my third argument. Christ becomes judge when he receives 
 ■the kingdom. Micah 5:2: 
 
 "But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judali, 
 yet out of thee shall he come forth vmto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth 
 have been of old, from everlasting." 
 
 I should have noticed this, however, in my other argument, to which it 
 properly belongs. I will now notice Acts 17 : 30, 31, under argument third, 
 that Christ is judge when he receives his kingdom. 
 
 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every- 
 where to repent: because he hath appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in right- 
 eousness, by that man whom he hath ordained; and hath given assurance unto all men in 
 that he hath raised him from tlie dead." 
 
 Thus you see that we have assurance that he is to be judge of the world, 
 because he hath been raised from the dead. The day spoken of, I believe to be 
 the gospel age. Again, Matthew 2:6: 
 
 "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: 
 for out of the shall come a governor, that shall rule my people Israel." 
 
 Luke 1: 31-33. — "And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb and bring forth a son, 
 and shall call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the High- 
 est, and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David." 
 
 Here is the branch spoken of by Jeremiah, in 23 : 5. And this king is to 
 reign forever, and his kingdom is to have no end. I will bring this properly 
 into the discussion before it closes, and I call my brother's attention to it now. 
 Again; Acts 10:40—12: 
 
 "Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; not to all the people, but to 
 witnesses chosen before'of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he arose 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 2V 
 
 from the dead. And lie commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify tliat it is he 
 which was ordamed of God, to be the judge qf quick and dead." 
 
 You will remember here, my brother, that the judgment was to take place, 
 "at his appearing and kingdom." 
 
 Matthew 16:27, 28.— "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his 
 angels; and then, [mark it now; we emphasize the word then], he shall reward [judgej every 
 man according to his works. Verily, I say unto you, there be some standing here, which 
 shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." 
 
 Then it is a fact, my brother, after all, that there wer^ Bome| living right 
 there, who heard these words fall from the lips of Jesus, who should not die, 
 until he came in his kingdom to judge mankind, according to their works. Un- 
 less you are able to prove that there are some living now whoVere living then, 
 you will utterly fail in this discussion. 
 
 Rev. 19 : 11-13.— "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat 
 upon him was called Faithful and True, and in rightousness he doth judge and make war. His 
 eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns: and lie had a name written, 
 that no man knew, but he himself And he wa.s clothed with a vesture dipped in blood; and 
 his name is called The Word of God." 
 
 Another presentation of the Messiah coming to reign in his kingdom. I 
 will call your attention, in this connection, to Matthew 25 : 31-34: 
 
 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then 
 sliall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations; [na- 
 tions, my brother, not individuals]; and he shall separate them one from another, as a shep- 
 herd divideth his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but 
 the goats on the left. Then shall the Xisa.^' fj 
 
 Then there is to be a kingdom, and this is something, which is to be fulfill- 
 ed simultaneously with his coming in the clouds, his appearing, his coming to 
 reward mankind. We have already proven that this coming was to take place 
 during the natural lifetime of some who were standing there when Jesus spoke 
 those words recorded in the sixteenth chapter of Matthew, and this fastens the 
 argument, that the kingdom of the Messiah was established upon the earth, over 
 eighteen hundred years ago, in justice and judgment. 
 
 Jesus says, Matthew 28 : 18, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in 
 earth." John 5 : 27, "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, 
 because he is the Son of man." My brother has acknowledged the precedent 
 which I laid down in the beginning of this discussion, that God judges in the 
 earth. I, having presented this argument, call his attention to the fact, that the 
 Father judgeth no man any longer, but hath given all judgment unto the Son. 
 
 John 9 : 39. — "And Jesus said. For judgment I am come into this world, that they which 
 see not might see; and tl>at they which see might be made blind." 
 
 John 12 : 31. — "Now is the judgment of this world : now shall the prince of this world be 
 • cast out." 
 
 My brother will notice that it says novj. Does that mean a thousand or ten 
 thousand years in the future ? 
 
 Elder Shinn yielded at the call of Time by the Moderator. 
 
 Elder Forscutt's reply to Elder Shinn's second argument. 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 In listening to the arguments we have just heard, I do not believe any of 
 you can tell how much gratified I was. If I could only have thought it right to 
 do so, and could have had the inspiration necessary, I believe I would have or- 
 dained my brother a Mormon Elder, right away; for I believe his positive argu- 
 ments were, some of them, at least, just about as good as though they were found 
 in a sermon preached by our own people, and in regard to a great many of the 
 positions which he took, I have but little to answer, unless I were to fall upon 
 
22 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 my own theory. Perhaps he expects me to branch off, and lead him a little in 
 the debate; but this it is not my province to do, for he tells us that he expected 
 I should prove there would be a day in the future, in the which God will judge 
 the world. 
 
 We will examine, then, some of his arguments, and notice, First; tnat ne 
 tells you, if endless punishment be endless punishment because administered by 
 an endless being, everything done by God would be endless on the same principle. ■ 
 In a certiiin sense we might subscribe to this. Again he tgUs us he has not taken 
 the position, that there is no future punishment, and whether he will or not we 
 have not yet learned; but if there be no future judgment, then it will be a diffi- 
 cult matter tO' show that there will be future punishment ; for, unless God shall 
 be so unjust as to punish without judging, there certainly will be no future pun- 
 ishment without a future judgment. That is disposed of so far as his argu- 
 ments are concerned. 
 
 Our friend tells you that I stand on one side, and the word of the Lord on 
 the other. I was really under the impression that the very reverse of this was 
 true, and shall endeavor to show, that the word of the Lord and I, both stand on 
 the same side. I think too, that the gentleman has helped me to some extent 
 in his arguments ; and that I shall be able to do so. I shall use some of his 
 arguments for that purpose. He quotes Psalm 62 : 12 : 
 
 "Also unto tliee, Lord, belongetli mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to 
 his worlc." 
 
 When we examine this psalm, we discover that there is something else 
 spoken of beside the mercy of God. "God hath spoken once; twice have I heard 
 this; that power belongeth unto God. Also unto thee, Lord, belongeth 
 mercy; for thoii rendcrcs/, to evert/ man according to Ms work." 
 
 Now this term also, certainly applies to something. The inspired Psalmist 
 tells us, that God hath spoken, that God hath power, and he tells them in a 
 preceding verse, to trust not in oppression, and set not their heart upon riches. 
 Why? Because these things can not save them. They should not trust in 
 them; but should trust in God. True, the theory presented io us is that God 
 is a God of mercy. "Also unto thee, Lord, belongeth mercy;" but there is 
 added very significantly, "for thou renderest to every man according to his 
 work." 
 
 When a criminal is charged with crime, and brought before the court for 
 trial, is it a question then whether or not it is mercy to him to punish him for 
 his crime? Or is it not a question of justice and judgment, as well as of mercy? 
 Is it not true, in a general sense, that that judgment and that justice which are 
 administered to him for his wrong doing, may be affected by mercy as well as j 
 by justice? May not justice, God's justice, be the foundation on which mercy' 
 may build? If there is such a thing as the justice of God, manifested by hig 
 judgments upon the ungodly, then we shall not be compelled to show that there 
 must be some kind of punishment, some kind of vengeance, which he will bestow 
 upon those who do not keep his law, but who are breaking it, for it follows as a 
 necessity of justice. 
 
 The wicked in this life stand an equal chance with the righteous, so far as 
 the things of this world are concerned. They live about the same period of life. 
 Good men are often imposed upon and subjected to wicked rulers; but these 
 rulers must, in justice, be punished, and the time will come when God wOl judge 
 them, that they may be justly punished; "for thou renderest to every man ac- 
 cording to his works," is the declaration of the inspired Psalmist. Now on 
 this point, I submit the question, If God is to render to every man according to 
 his work, how can it be that there is no future punishment; while lyino-, cheat- 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 23 
 
 ing, robbery, and wickedness of every name and nature are being practiced, and 
 receiving no punishment in tbis life. If these are not to be punished hereafter, 
 then the Psalmist's words are false, and Grod does not render to every man ac- 
 cording to his work. Everywhere wickedness is rampant, and crime triumphs. 
 If there is no judgment beyond this life for the wicked, then they do not receiv-e 
 the reward due to them for their works. 
 
 "We have introduced to us the prophet Daniel, where he is called upon to 
 give the interpretation of a dream or vision of king I^ebuchadnezzar, wherein 
 the prophet speaks of the establishment of the kingdom upon the earth. Our 
 friend thinks this had its fulfillment in the days of Jesus Christ, at least I con- 
 clude from the manner in which Mr. Shinn used it, that he meant to show that 
 Jesu^ came and established that kingdom upon earth. In this, I think the 
 gentleman has fallen- into an error; and, I apprehend, he will have as much diffi- 
 culty in proving this, as I will have in finding the man that was to live- until 
 Jesus comes. I pass the dream, and proceed to notice the interpretation. Dan. 
 2 : 38, 39, "Thou art this head of gold," Daniel says to the king. "And after 
 thee shall arise another, inferior to thee," which was represented by the silver. 
 A third was represented* by the brass, and the fourth by the iron. From the 
 legs of the image, which were of iron, grew ten toes, part of iron and part of 
 clay. Now the prophet's declaration, forty-fourth verse, is, "In the days of 
 ihese kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom. Where were these kings, 
 Sir, or these ten kingdoms, that should grow out of the feet of the image ? Did 
 they exist in the days when Jesus was upon earth ? 
 
 The fourth great power existed at that time, the Eoman, iron power. This 
 power was represented by the legs of the image, and had also feet attached to its 
 legs; to these feet were also attached toes. These toes represented ten kingdoms, 
 arising out of the Boman government. "In the days of THESE kings, shall the 
 God of heaven set up a kingdom." Let me say to you. Sir, tlfet in the days 
 when Jesus was upon earth, these ten kingdoms were not in existence. In that 
 day the Boman government was one, not ten; it was one; and one only. It was 
 not divided at all. 
 
 We read in the second^ chapter of Luke, that the proclamation went forth 
 for all the world to be taxed. From the Roman emperor this proclamation 
 went forth, from the iron ruler, Ceasar Augustus. This Roman government was 
 not then divided. It was one government, and only one, not ten. It was the 
 one iron kingdom that was to break into pieces, and bruise ; and after this iron 
 kingdom should have ruled for a long time, for many hundreds of years, it 
 was to be divided into ten divisions, represented by the ten toes, and to be ten 
 kingdoms instead of one. 
 
 We discover further that this kingdom was one for hundreds of ye^rs after 
 the death of Jesus. It then became gradually broken. One kingdom arose in 
 or about the year 356, and after this'down to about 450, or a little later, we can 
 trace the.ten toes very distinctly. But these, the gentleman will notice, had no 
 existence when Jesus was here. The toes were not yet developed, and it was 
 more than three hundred years before they were developed, and the Roman gov- 
 ernment divided. The language of the prophet is, "IN THE DAYS OF 
 THESE KINGS, shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom." Now, sir, if the 
 kingdom of Christ was established in the days of these ten kings, it could not 
 be before the year 350; and it may not be established yet; for these ten king- 
 doms yet exist in. some form. 
 
 These kingdoms passed through many changes, it is true, but still in their , 
 varied conditions they can be traced down through the history of the past to the 
 present age. This kingdom that Danief says was to be set up "in the days of 
 
24 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 these kings," is represented as having great power, and being a kingdom that 
 shall never be thrown down any more. "The God of heaven shall set up a 
 kingdom, that shall never be destroyed ; it shall break in pieces and consume all 
 these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever." How vastly different from the 
 spiritual kingdom which Jesus came to establish, when he came to earth the first 
 time. For instead of that bringing a kingdom to break in pieces and consume all 
 others in this world, he said, "My kingdom is not of this world, else would my 
 servants fight." If thfl^argument presented before us be a correct argument, 
 Jesus did not state exactly the truth ; nay, the very opposite of the truth. In- 
 stead of saying, "My kingdom is not of this world," he should have said, My 
 kingdom shall subdue this world, and break into pieces all the kingdoms thereof. 
 
 The argument is adduced by some, that because Jesus said, "My kirigdom 
 is not of this world," that therefore his spiritual kingdom was then set up in the 
 hearts of the people. My brother, I am very glad, understands this as I do. I 
 have often been amused at our friends of other churches who hold this view and 
 deny the future kingdom. A very strange thing indeed, for the kingdom of 
 God to be within (in the hearts of) those wicked Pharisees. The kingdom or- 
 ganized by Jesus had apostles, prophets, and a number of classes of officers with- 
 in it; surely these could not be within the heart. 
 
 But that was not the kingdom that was to break in pieces and consume all 
 other kingdoms. This was to be set up in the days of the ten kings. And 
 whether it is now set up, or will be set up in the future, it matters not; for so 
 long as the ten kingdoms remain, God's kingdom may be established. The 
 kingdom spoken of by Daniel is to be in the earth, and is to be a political king- . 
 dom. It will be established by the coming of Christ in glory; coming in }m 
 Mngdom, is implied, in the manner in which even Elder Shinn presented the 
 evidence concerning it, it must be by the personal coming of Christ in the glory . 
 of God; the glory of the Father manifested from heaven in and with Christ, 
 when the kingdom set up by himself will break in pieces all other kingdoms. 
 
 Lhave no disposition to doubt the testimony or statement in the fourth and 
 fifth of Daniel; for his kingdom must; aye, it shall be an everlasting kingdom, 
 and shall endure from generation to generation. His government is to be a 
 never ending one. "And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his- 
 father David," was the promise of the angel to his mother before his birth. — 
 Luke 1 : 32. He did not do this when he was here. He never entered the 
 sacred precincts of Mount Zion; he never went into the sacred spot, where 
 David and Solomon sat; therefore did not seat himself upon the throne of his- 
 father David. But the promise of God, sworn with an oath to David, that "He 
 would raise up Christ to sit upon his throne." — Acts 2 : 30. 
 
 He is to establish justice and judgment, while he is seated upon this 
 throne. Is not a special throne indicated by the expression, "The throne of his. 
 father David?" What kind of a throne was it? Was it a spiritual throne; a 
 throne of justice and peace in heaven? Oh no! It was a literal throne upon, 
 the earth, "the throne of his father David;" the throne the description of which 
 is given in the book of Chronicles. Upon this throne Jesus never was seated 
 while he was here in the flesh. 
 
 Again ; being seated upon the throne of David, implies the restoration of 
 the government or rule of David, or the government of the people which David 
 governed. But, Sir, he did not sit upon the throne of his father David in this 
 sense while here. When his disciples propounded to him this question, "Lord, 
 wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" he answered, "It is- 
 not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father hath put in his own 
 power." — Acts 1 : 6, 7. Sir, what a fine opportunity this was for him to declare^ 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 25 
 
 unto tliein that the kingdom was to be immediately restored; but his words rather 
 imply the thought, I am not now a king to have temporal rule, or a temporal 
 kingdom. He had already said, "My kingdom is not of this world, else would 
 my servants fight." And here he adds to his disciples, "It is not for you to know 
 the times and the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." If the 
 setting up of his kingdom in any sense was to take place during the life time of 
 his apostles, why did he not inform them of this most important event? They 
 viewed. the promises as relating to a temporal kingdom; he did not correct their 
 views, but confirmed them. If it be true that Christ's kingdom was then estab- 
 lished, then must there have been so utter a failure to establish it in the way in 
 which it was expected, that neither Christ nor his apostles recognized it. 
 
 We are referred again to the tenth chapter of Acts, and forty-second verse : 
 
 "And he commanded iis to preach uoto the people, and to testify that it is he that was 
 ordained of God to be the judge of quick and dead." 
 
 The Judge is then Jesus Christ, who after he had been put to death, arose 
 from the dead; and when the Spirit was given to the apostles, they, by the in- 
 fluence of that promisedHoly Ghost which they received, declared of him that 
 this "is he who was ordamed of God to be the judge of the quick and dead." 
 
 The time of this occupying the judge's seat as the gentleman quoted for us 
 from 2 Timothy 4 : 1, is to be at his appearing and kingdom. Now, if he was to 
 sit as j udge at his appearing and in his kingdom, when was that ? If it was in the 
 past, when was it? It can not be that Elder Shinn is right that Christ took 
 possession of the seat of judgment, at the time he ascended to the right hand of 
 God to commence his "mediatorial reign," and Paul's testimony be true; for this 
 testimony was given thirty-three years after Jesus Christ had ascended to 
 heaven, and the apostle then writes, "I charge thee before God the Father, and 
 the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing 
 and kingdom." Why should Paul say shall judge, if he had then been judge 
 for the last thirty-three years previously. 
 
 There has been considerable said about grammar, tense, etc., this morning, 
 and as I see that we have two or three school teachers here this morning, I wish 
 to submit to them the question, if in speaking of such an event thirty-three 
 years past, they would use the future tense, and say s/iaZ^ judge? Or instead of 
 saying, "I charge thee before God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who 
 shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing," would they not say, "I 
 charge thee before God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who has been 
 judging, or who is tww judging." Nothing of this kind is found in the declar- 
 ation, but the future tense only. Sir, was used in this declaration made thirty-three 
 years after Jesus had gone to heaven. The language we repeat is, "who shall 
 judge." If you are right. Sir, the kingdom of Jesus Christ had been upon the 
 earth for thirty-three years, and he therefore had been judge for that length 
 of time. Then instead of the terms here used by the apostle, he should have 
 used language that would convey the idea that Christ's judgment was partly 
 past and partly future. 
 
 The apostle's language immediately following that which we have just no- 
 ticed, we will leave for the present, as it properly belongs to the apostasy, and 
 will proceed to notice the testimony we are referred to, in the twenty-second 
 Psalm. I admit that this language has reference to Jesus Christ; but in order 
 to understand it correctly, we will read what precedes the language quoted by 
 Mr. Shinn : 
 
 ""Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing. The kings of the earth 
 set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anoint- 
 ed." 
 
26 FORSGUTT AND SHINN' 8 DISCUSSION. 
 
 The prophets in speaking of many events which were to take place i^it^e 
 future, frequently spoke of them as though they were present with them. The 
 Psalmist here is doubtless speaking of the time, when Jesus Christ will come 
 to take the throne of his father David. Then the heathen will rage, and the 
 kings of the earth take counsel together against the Lord, and againsthis 
 anointed. But notwithstanding this opposition, which is to be raised against 
 Jesus, the promise is, eighth verse : 
 
 "Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost 
 parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt 
 dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." 
 
 This is, evidently, yet in the future; for Jesus is to break the nations' when 
 this is fulfilled; but when he came before they broke him, commemorated by us 
 in breaking in pieces the bread at the sacramental altar. When this is fulfilled, 
 he will "break" the nations "with a rod of iron, and dash them to pieces like a 
 potter's vessel." 
 
 When he was here, he was the sufierer; when he comes again, he will 
 be the conqueror. 
 
 He was the "Lamb of Calvary" the first time; he will be the "Lion of the 
 tribe of Judah" the second time. 
 
 He came to die the first time; he comes to reign as "King of kings," blessed 
 forever more, the second time. 
 
 Two distinct characters. 
 
 Two distinct callings. 
 
 We now turn to the testimony given to us from the nineteenth chapter of 
 revelations. In this there are some evidences which, to my mind, are very clear; 
 and to those which the gentleman has quoted for us, we may pro^tably call your 
 attention again. We begin reading the fifth verse : 
 
 "And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Pjaise our God, all ye his servaiits, and ye 
 that fear him, both small and great. [6.] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multi- 
 tude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of many thunderings, saying, Alleluia, 
 for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." 
 
 Then occurs what is said about the marriage of the Lamb, and the garments 
 in which the bride is to be arrayed, which are of fine linen, clean and white. Oidy , 
 such will be there as are so arrayed. In that we will have to be arrayed, Sir, if 
 we enter into the marriage of the Lamb. We continue, eleventh verse : 
 
 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse ; and he that sat upon him was 
 called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge arid make war." 
 
 Does this teach that he will establish a kingdom which shall gradually over- 
 come the world? No, Sir. "In righteousness he doth judge and make war." 
 When he was here, he offered salvation and mercy; but now he comes to "judge 
 and make war." "He shall break them [the nations] with a rod of iron, and 
 dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel." John continues : 
 
 (12.) "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; [symbolizing 
 Iiis conquests] ; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was 
 clothed with a vesture dipped in blood : and his name is called the "Word of God. And the 
 armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white 
 and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that ivUh it he should sniiie the na&m; 
 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron : and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and 
 wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING 
 OP KINGS, ANi) LORD OP LORDS." 
 
 Sixty-three years, if the chronology of King James' Bible be correct, and 
 it is generally accepted as being so, sixty-three years after Jesus Christ had gone 
 to heaven, this was written. Was this. Sir, the history of Jesus having estab- 
 lished his kingdom, written sixty-three years after Jesus had gone to heaven, as 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 27 
 
 a history of what transpired when Jesus was upon earth ? Or was it a prophe- 
 cy ? We read in the first chapter and first verse of this book, that it was "The 
 revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants 
 thing which must shortly come to pass." Sixty-three years after Jesus had gone 
 to' heaven, these things were yet to come to pass, were yet in the future, were 
 yet to ha. 
 
 In the first three chapters of this hook, John • is commanded to write to 
 the churches then in Asia; but in the opening of the fourth chapter we read : 
 
 "After this I looked, and, behold a door Was opened, in heaven: and the first voice which 
 I heard was as it were of a trumpet, talking with mo; which said, Cpme up hither, and I will 
 shew thee thitigs which must he heeeaftbb." 
 
 Sixty-three years after the kingdom was established, if our friend be cor- 
 rect, the angel said to John, "it must be hereafter!' If the angel was right, 
 "Brgther Shinn" is wrong. I have no hesitancy in deciding. There was also 
 shown to John, sixty-three years after Jesus had gone to heaven, a vision of his 
 return to reign; his return "to make war" upon the nations, "to break them in 
 pieces;" his return to rulg, fulfilling the prophecies of Grod's holy prophets. 
 
 I again call your attention to the testimony given to us in the first chapter 
 of Luke, 31-33 verses. It is the testimony given by inspiration, the word of 
 the angel of the Lord, before the conception of Jesus took place: 
 
 "And, behold, thou shalt * * * bring forth a son, and shalt call Ms name JESUS. He 
 shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto 
 him the throne of his father David." 
 
 Notice carefully the reading of this verse; not the throne of his majesty on 
 high, but "the throne of his father David." 
 
 "And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever ; and of his kingdom there shall bo 
 no end." 
 
 When Jesus comes again, he is to reign over the house of Jacob. When 
 he came the first time, instead of reigning over that house, he said to Jacob's 
 children, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Our friend says he en- 
 tered upon his, reign. Strange way for a king to come and rule over a house, to 
 make the house desolate ! 
 
 "How often would I have gathered thy children together,' even as a hen gathereth her 
 chickens under her wings, and ye would not."-— Matt. 23 : 31, 38. 
 
 When Jesus comes again, Sir, in fulfillment of the prophecy concerning 
 him, he will reign over the house of Jacob ; not a desolate house, but ^ house 
 gathered together. God, through his prophets, declares in effect, Though I 
 have scattered you, yet will I gather you from the four quarters of the earth, 
 from the north, from the south, from the east, from the west, unto your own 
 land, I will establish you there forever; even forever and ever. This must be 
 done before Jesus can reign over them, and before he comes to reign; for the 
 testimony of the word of God is, that he shall find them in their land when he 
 comes; and praises be to his name, he is now gathering them there, in fulfill- 
 ment of the prophecies of the holy prophets. They are to be gathered in their 
 land, and the nations are to be gathered around them, to take a spoil and prey. 
 Then will Jesus be the defender of his people; "for he shall go forth and fight 
 against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle." 
 
 He shall gain the victory over their foes, and then he will reign over the 
 house of Jacob. 
 
 Then, too, those who have faithfully kept his word, and have endured the 
 trials of life for his sake, will he especially bless. 
 
 Then shall judgment be given, and -the Saints shall see fulfilled unto them 
 
28 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 the promise, that he would make them rulers and judges in his kingdom, when 
 he should come. 
 
 Then to the apostles will be fulfilled the promise : 
 
 "Ye which, have followed me in the regeneration, w/ie» the Son of man shall sit in 
 the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of 
 of Israel."— Matt. 19 : 28. 
 
 Then will the Saints realize the truth of Paul's utterance : 
 "Do ye not know that the Saints shall judge the world?" — 1 Cor. 6 : 2. 
 
 These, the tried servants of God, have passed through the trials of life; 
 they have endured the frowns of the world ; they have suifered as their Master 
 suffered when he was here ; therefore, when he comes, they shall rest and reign 
 with him, in the kingdom of his Father. 
 
 Elder Forscutt closed his argument at the call of "Time." 
 
 Elder Shinn, in further support of his proposition, said: 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I wish to resume our friendly discussion, by first reviewing my brother's 
 last speech. 
 
 He remarks that my arguments were, very correct, and that they were strong- 
 ly savored, if not all over, at least partially so, with what he was pleased to term 
 Mormonism, and remarks that if he had had the inspiration, he would have or- 
 dained me one of their Elders. I am very grateful indeed, for I like to be on 
 friendly relations; but would it not have looked a little better, after saying this, 
 if he had not reviewed me quite so closely. 
 
 My brother, I wish to make one correction here ; for Ve must understand 
 each other in this discussion. I have repeatedly called his attention to the fact, 
 that I did not believe in a future day of judgment, beyond this life, or beyond 
 the resurrection of the dead. That the day of judgment began; I understand 
 it began with, and is the day of Christ's mediatorial reign; and it will end when 
 that reign is finished, and the kingdom delivered up to God the Father. It is 
 to result in the destruction of every evil, and the purification of all souls. 
 
 Precisely the point of difference between my brother and myself is this ; 
 where he believes the reign to start, I believe it stops. I believe that judgment 
 ends with the mediatorial teign. I will now state farther, that I believe in a 
 personal coming of the Messiah, which will take place at the end of the media- 
 torial reign, when judgment ceases. P;s. 62 : 12, I will call your attention to. 
 I do not clearly understand my brother. I understand him to claim that some- 
 times men are rewarded in this world; and then again there are persons who 
 indulge in wickedness and sin, who go unpunished in this world; if I under- 
 stand him correctly, for I do not wish to misrepresent him. .This is quite a 
 different understanding from what I have of this passage of Scripture. "Also, 
 unto thee, Lord, belongeth mercy, for thou renderest, [renderest], to every 
 man according to his works." I will call your attention now to another passage 
 of Scripture, which treats directly upon this subject: 
 
 Prov. 11:31.— "Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the 
 wicked and the sinner." 
 
 Certainly; also, the wicked and the sinner. Again, I will quote: 
 
 John 15 : 20.— "The wicked man travaileth with pain all his days, and the number of 
 years is hid to the oppressor." 
 
 Isaiah 51:20, 21.— "But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it can not rest, whose 
 waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked " "But the 
 wicked are like the troubled sea. * * * There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked." 
 They are certainly punished, then, in this life. 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 29 
 
 Gal. 6:7, 8. — "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that 
 shall he also reap. For he that soweth to the flesh, [now mark], shall of the flesh reap cor- 
 ruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit, shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." 
 We quote again in this connection, Ps. 62 : 12 : 
 
 "Also unto thee, Lord, belongeth mercy, for thou renderest, [in the present tense, ren- 
 deres(], to every man according to his works." 
 
 We have an abundance of evidence to present upon this point, if it is re- 
 quired. I would remark in this connection, "Though the wicked be hand 
 joined in hand, they shall not go unpunished. 
 
 The brother spoke of Daniel 2, and thinks I will encounter some difficulty 
 here, perhaps, from the language, "In the days of these kings," perhaps as much 
 as he will in regard to the quotation I made from Matthew, in regard to there 
 being some standing here, that shall not taste of death until Jesus comes. I 
 will now call your attention to Daniel's interpretation again. I read from Rev. 
 Thoma^ Whitemore's Commentary on Eev. 13:1, where he refers to Daniel's 
 vision of the beasts : 
 
 "In explaining these figures Daniel expressly says, 'These great beasts, which are four, 
 are four kings which shall amse out of the earth.' — llv. Beasts, wild amd ferocious in their 
 character, are used to represent earthly kings or kingdoms. 'The fourth beast shall be the 
 fourth kingdom upon the earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour 
 the whole earth, and shall tread it down and break it in pieces.' — 23u. This must be the 
 Roman Empire, for no other ever had such wide dominion. Hence, Daniel's beast, like that 
 of the Apocalypse, had ten horns, which he explains to be ten Tangs, that shall arise. — Un. 
 The four kingdoms, represented in 7th of Daniel by fom- leasts, are represented in the second 
 chapter of that prophecy, by the differed pa/rts of the great image, the legs and the feet there- 
 of being of iron, and representing the fourth kingdom which was as strong as iron. But as 
 the Roman Empire was composed of heterogeneous materials, so the feet of the image were 
 in part of iron and part of clay, which showed the divisions of the kingdom, and the cause of 
 its fall. Now, it was when the Roman Empire was in its fullest glory, that Christ appeared 
 to establish his spiritual kingdom, and Daniel therefore says, 'In the days of these kimgs, shall 
 the God of heaven set up a kingdom, etc., which shall never be destroyed: and the Mngdom 
 shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, 
 and it shall stand forever.' — Dan. 2:44. This kingdom which the God of heaven set up, was 
 the kingdom of Christ, represented, not by a wild beast, but by the stone cut out without 
 hands; [that is, without earthly aid, as Christ's sflfritual kingdom was built up. — Heb. 9: 11.] 
 And if the reader will compare carefully the second and seventh chapters of Daniel, he will 
 see that it was the intention of that prophet to show, that Christianity was to arise in the 
 time of the fourth kingdom, terrible and powerful, which was the Roman Empire. Then 
 Christianity did arise ; and without any manifest aid from men, it prevailed over all human 
 opposition, and shall stand forever." 
 
 He says, "My kingdom is not of this world," making a quotation from Je- 
 sus. Then makes the argument to prove that Christ will reign as a temporal 
 king, at his second, personal coming. Now right here, my brother, is where 
 some one is mistaken in regard to this matter. For right where my brother 
 thinks he will begin to assume the government and reign as king, I believe he 
 will deliver up the kingdom to G-od the Father, which I believe he will do at 
 his personal coming, at the end of his mediatorial reign. 1 Cor. 15, beginning 
 with the 24th verse : 
 
 "Then oometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the 
 Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power. For he must 
 reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is 
 death." 
 
 Then his reign is to|oease with the resurrection of the dead, or with the 
 destruction of death, as I understand it ; for he hath put all things under his 
 feet; all things shall be subdued unto him that put all things under him. Thus, 
 you see, I beKeve that the time of his personal coming will be at the end of his 
 mediatorial reign, and that then he delivers up the kingdom to God the Father. 
 There is not one single syllable, or word recorded about a judgment in connec- 
 
•30 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'8 DISCUSSION. 
 
 tion with his personal coming. That is wholly confined to his spiritual, and that 
 is what I have been presenting to you. But I have an argument to make on 
 this point by and by. 
 
 My brother says that Christ is coming to reign upon the literal throne of 
 David. Talk about a throne of glory, does my brother ! For his Christ will 
 reign literally, upon a literal throne. The coming and reign I believe I am 
 speaking of, which is to take place in connection with judgment, is a spiritual 
 reign, spiritual coming; a coming in the clouds in his kingdom; a coming in 
 glory; a coming to. reward mankind, every one according to his works. 
 
 Acta 10:40. — "Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; not to all the 
 people, but to witnesses chosen before of God, even unto us, who did eat and drink with him, 
 after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify 
 that it is he which was ordained of God, to be the judge of quick and dead. To him give all 
 the prophets witness, that through his name, whosoever believeth in him, should receive re- 
 mission of sins." 
 
 Certainly it has reference to his spiritual reign, "To him_ give all the proph- 
 ets witness, that through his name, whosoever believeth in him, shall receive re- 
 mission of sins." 
 
 Again; 2 Timothy 4 : 10, my brother emphasizes the word shaU: 
 
 "I charge thee before God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shaR judge the 
 quick and the dead at his appearing and kingdom." 
 
 My brother, his kingdom was not fully established at that time, and the 
 coming of the judge was in the future, at the time the language was spoken. 
 Now, the kingdom of the Messiah was gradual in being established, as the old 
 Jewish order of things was gradual in passing away. The Christian dispensa- 
 tion was gradual in coming in; the dispensation of Messiah's reign was brought 
 in gradually. Alexander Campbell says : 
 
 "But aa the erection of the Jewish tabernacle, after the commencement of the first king- 
 dom of God, was the work of some time, and of united and combined effort on the part of 
 those raised up and qualified for the work ; so was the complete erection of the neiv temple of 
 God. The apostles, as wise master builders, laid the foundation, promulged the constitution, 
 laws, and institutions of the king, and raised the standard of the king in many towns, cities 
 and countries, for the spaeo of forty years." — Christian System, page 118. 
 
 Ps. 2 : 7. We will see before this discussion closes, whether Jesus did not 
 take vengeance, retribution, on his enemies, and dash all his enemies to pieces 
 during his spiritual reign. Revelation 19 : 11, refers to the same spiritual com- 
 ing: 
 
 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse ; and he that sat upon him was 
 called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." 
 
 Here is war in connection'with this coming, and this is certainly a spiritual 
 coming. 
 
 "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and lie had a name 
 written, that no man knew but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in 
 blood: and his name is the Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed 
 him upon horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp 
 sword, that with it he should smite the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: 
 and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." 
 
 This language is highly figurative, I must admit; but it certainly ^has ref- 
 erence to the establishment of Messiah's kingdom. In regard to the Apocalypse, 
 my brother, I want to make an assertion right now. I affirm that that book was 
 written before the estabUshing of the kingdom of the Messiah here upon the 
 earth. I affirm that that book was written before the destruction of the city of 
 Jerusalem; and I am prepared to prove these assertions by the learned men of 
 the world, and from the internal evidences of the book. If it is found neces- 
 sary, I will do this in this discussion. As this book speaks of judo-ment and 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 31 
 
 resurrection, he has to rely so much upon it to prove his position in this discus- 
 sion; while we claim that many of those events spoken of in this book, were ful- 
 filled nearly eighteen hundred years ago. 
 
 The brother says the Jews will be gathered, and says they are now being 
 gathered. Thank heaven, my brother, they are being gathered now; but I do 
 not think they will be finally gathered, until the deliverer comes up out of Zion. 
 who shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. I agree with you that all Israel 
 will be saved. I am happy to agree with you upon that ground. I hope to 
 meet at least half way. I hope we will finally meet with the redeemed, and be 
 gathered in the kingdom of our blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
 
 Elder Forscutt here said aloud, "Amen." 
 
 Elder Shinn continued, — But I will give you my view upon this matter, of 
 his servants assisting in the judgment: 
 
 2 Timothy 2: 11, 12. — "It is a faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall also 
 live with him: if we suffer, we shall also roign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny 
 us." 
 
 I read from Kev. Thomas Whitemore's Commentary on Rev. 20:4; having 
 referred to Rev. 5:9:, 
 
 "For thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, 
 and tongue, and people, and nation ; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we 
 shall reign on the earth." 
 
 St. Paul said: It is a faithful saying; for if we be dead with him, we shall 
 also live with him; if we suffer, we shall also reign with him. — 2 Tim. 2 : 11, 12. 
 - The revelator, of course, as was his custom, puts these things into a much more 
 metaphorical form. He says, "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and 
 judgment, [or the power of judging, or reigning], was given unto them. This 
 agrees precisely with what Jesus told his disciples before his death : 
 
 "Verily, I say unto you, that ye which have followed me in the regeneration, wJien, the 
 Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the 
 twelve tribes of Israel ; that is, spiritual Israel." — Matt. 19 : 28. 
 
 It was in this way that the Saints were to judge the world. — 1 Cor. 6 : 2. 
 Hence Jesus said to the church at Thyatira : 
 
 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my words unto the end, to him will I give power 
 over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter, shall 
 they be broken to shivers; even as I received of my Father.'' — Bev. 2: 26, 27. 
 
 And again to the church at Laodicia : 
 
 "To him that overcometh, will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also over- 
 came, and am set down with my father in his throne." — 3 : 21. 
 
 The New Testament is full of these figures. The thrones which John saw 
 were metaphorical, and so was the great white throne mentioned in verse eleven. 
 
 The kingdom of Christ itself was not real and outward, but metaphorical and 
 spiritual. The martyrs who had been beheaded, lived and reigned on the earth. 
 Christ lives and reigns on the earth nou\ and so do the martyrs, and every 
 faithful christian, the knowledge of whom has reached us. How little is there 
 of the good that can really die? Abel '^being dead, yet speaketh." — Heb. 11 : 4. 
 The poet has forcibly expressed this idea, on a slightly difierent subject: 
 
 "They never fail who die in a good cause; 
 
 The block may soak their gore; 
 
 Their heads may sodden in the sun; their limbs 
 
 Be strung to city gates and eastle walls; 
 
 But still their spirit walks abroad. Though years 
 
 Elapse, and others sliare as dark a doom, 
 
 The^ but augment the deep and swelling thoughts 
 
 T.'hich overpower all others, and conduct 
 
 TI>e world ^t last to Freedom." 
 
32 FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 When it is said of any, therefore, that they, reign with Christ, it is because 
 they are co-workers, or co-sufferers with him; for "if we suffer with him, we 
 shall also reign with him."— 2 Tim. 2 :]12. _ 
 
 I now resume my arguments. Christ's coming in glory, in power, with his 
 angels, to reward mankind according to their works, etc. His coming, ^^ no- 
 ticed, took place during the natural life time of some of those who heard him 
 utter these words. Matthew twenty-fifth chapter, beginning with the twenty- 
 third verse, "And he shall separate them, [the nations."] Now, my brother 
 knows that this can not refer to the future life, for all nations will not be sen- 
 tenced at a time. It is certainly figurative language. If it is not figurative, 
 then it refers to literal sheep and goats, and we will have to have literal sheep 
 and goats in this discussion. If it is figurative, then the sheep and goats may 
 represent men. 
 
 "Then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, Come ye bleaaed of my Father, in- 
 herit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was a hungered, 
 and ye gave me meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger and ye took me 
 in; naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and Jye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came 
 unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hunger- 
 ed, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? when saw we thee a stranger, and took 
 thee in;? or naked, and clothed thee? or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto 
 thee? And the king shall answer and say unto them, Yerily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye 
 have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall 
 he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting, [or age 
 lasting] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungered, and ye gave me no 
 meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; _ 
 naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." 
 
 Kemember, now, that this is a parable. I will call it the parable of the 
 sheep and the goats, for reasons already mentioned. Remember, it was to have 
 its fulfillment "when the Son of man shall come in his glory," and when he was 
 to sit upon the throne of his glory, and before him should be gathered all na- 
 tions; and he should separate, or judge them, one from another, as a shepherd 
 divideth his sheep from the goats. It was to have its fulfillment at that time. 
 I read in this connection, Matthew 16 : 27, 28 : 
 
 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels ; and then he 
 shall reward every man according to his works. Terily, I say unto you, there be some stand- 
 ing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." 
 
 The same coming, precisely. The same coming in his kingdom, which was 
 to take place during the natural lifetime of some of those who were standing 
 there, and heard Jesus utter these words. Once more, Mark 8 : 38. 
 
 "Whosoever, therefore, shall be ashamed of me and of my words, in this adulterous and 
 sinful generation, of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he oometh in -the glory 
 of his Father, with the holy angels." 
 
 This is the same coming spoken of in Mark 9:1: 
 
 "And he said unto them, Terily, I say unto you, that there be some of them that stand 
 here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with 
 power." 
 
 Was not this coming with power ; was not this coming in his kingdom, in 
 his glory ; coming with angels, coming to reward mankind according to their 
 works. This coming too, was to take place during the natural lifetime of those 
 who heard Jesus utter these words : 
 
 Luke 9:26. — "For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the 
 Son'of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the 
 holy" angels. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of 
 death, tin they see the kingdom of God." 
 
 John 21: 21-24. — "Peter seeing him, saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 
 Jesus saith unto him. If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee ? follow thou me. 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 33 
 
 Then went this saying abroad among tlie .brethren, that that disciple should not die; yet Je- 
 sus said not unto him, Ho shall not die; but, if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to 
 thee?" 
 
 Matthew 10: 16-23.— "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye 
 therefore wise aa serpents and harmless as doves. But beware of men : for they will deliver 
 you up to the councils, and scourge you in their synagogues. And ye'shall be brought before 
 governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when 
 they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you 
 in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your 
 Father, which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and 
 the father the child : and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be 
 put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to 
 the end, shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for 
 verily I say unto you, ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be 
 come." 
 
 This is the same coming that was to take place during the natural lifetime 
 of those who heard Jesus utter these words : it must have been, or I am incapa- 
 ble of understanding the plainest kind of language. I give some authority upon 
 this matter, 178, Christian System, Alexander Campbell, that noted and scholarly 
 man that we have referred'to before; that great reformer: 
 
 "Some of them not only saw the Son of man enter upon his reign, and the kingdom of 
 God COMMENCE ou Penteoost, and carry his conquests over Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost 
 parts of the earth; but they saw the Lord 'come with power,' and awful glory, and accom- 
 plish all his predictions on the deserted and devoted temple, city and people. Thus they saw 
 a bright display of the golden scepter of his grace in forgiving those who bowed to his author- 
 ity, and an appalling exhibition of the iron rod of his wrath, m taking vengeance on his enemies 
 who would not have him to reign over them." — Christian System, page 119. 
 
 Mr. Lewis and others present the same thoughts. 
 He closed with the call "Time." 
 
 Elder Forscutt's third reply was as follows; 
 ■GcntJancn Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I am sorry that my friend has used so much of his time, this afternoon, in 
 replying to my last speech. I had hoped that I should have a vast array of new 
 matter to consider. I shall be compelled, however, to either correct myself, or 
 correct him, for there is certainly a misunderstanding somewhere in relation to 
 the points of diflFerence between us. If I understand the reading of the resolu- 
 tion aright, the object of this discussion is to determine from the accepted word 
 of God, as found in King James' translation, whether or not Jesus has yet come 
 the second time to judge the world. 
 
 It does not very materially aifect the question what Mr. Lewis has to say, 
 or what peculiar statements have been made by Alexander Campbell, or any one 
 else. The question is. What does the word of God teach in relation, to this mat- 
 ter? If we are to bring Mr. Campbell on the stand in this case, Mr. Broadhurst, 
 Mr. Irwin, Mr. James, and others who were writer's against Mr Camp- 
 bell's views, will have to be brought also; who, instead of accrediting him with 
 a great degree of learning, speak of him as being lacking in that qualification, 
 and assign this as one of the reasons why he left the Baptist Church. However^ 
 I shall not now discuss Mr. Campbell, or his claims; that is not the object of this 
 debate. • No doubt he^did a good work, according to the ability that God gave 
 to him. 
 
 Elder Shinn should confine himself to arguments based on quotations from 
 the Bible, arguments to be made by himself; not using arguments made by oth- 
 ers as though the authors of them were my opponents. I am here to debate with 
 him, not with either Mr. Lewis or Campbell; their views, merely as men's 
 opinions, are of no more value to me in this debate than the views of ^Ider Lake, 
 
34 FOR SCUT T AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 my chairman, would be of any value to him. It is well you should know who- 
 i&ese authors are. Their testimony is allowable; but not evidence. 
 
 Now to the main question at issue. Has there been a revelation of the- 
 word of God unto us at any time, teaching that there shall be a coming of Christ 
 in the future, personally, to introduce what we may call the judgment age? That 
 is the gist of the whole discussion now pending. 
 
 The testimonies presented to us by our friend, in relation to this matter,, 
 are, it seems to me, supportive of the theory that Jesus Christ will come the 
 second time, in power. And, as the gentleman has intimated, the chief diflFer- 
 ence between him and me consists in this; that I regard his future coming as- 
 being the introduction of his reign, while he regards his coming again, in person,, 
 as the end of his "mediatorial reign." 
 
 I do not tinderstand, if I understand the language correctly, that a "medii- 
 ator," as such, does reign. A mediator is one who mediates between two .parties; 
 in the case of Jesus, between the monarch who saves or condemns, and he who- 
 B to be saved or condemned. When we speak of this mediation, we speak of aft 
 act performed by an individual who comes between a monarch and a subject, 
 lietween the ruler and one who is ruled. What scriptural right have we to 
 speak of Christ's mediatorship as a "mediatorial reign?" Such words are not in 
 God's book, nor such a thought, any where. Where is the authority for their 
 use, if they are not found in that book ? When Jesus reigns, his present medi- 
 atorial office will cease. He will then have ceased to stand as mediator between, 
 us and God; for the office work of his mediatorship will have been ended. He 
 will then come to take vengeance on those who shall not have accepted his 
 mediatorial work; to approve and exalt those who looked up to him as the Me- 
 diator, and honored him by keeping his laws. 
 
 The gentleman thinks I have taken, in my last speech, a po^tioiii 
 which is very strange. Probably it may seem so to him. The position objected 
 to is that Christ said, "My kingdom is not of this world, else would my servants, 
 fight," and yet that after quoting this, I should declare that he will reign as a 
 temporal prince. Again, Sir, I call your attention to the meaning of words. 
 What does the word temporal signify? That which is limited, not eternal;, 
 primarily, it relates to time. During the millennial age, which is for a limited' 
 time, a specified time, Christ will reign. Tempus is the root of the word, sig- 
 nifying, time; temporal is from that root, and indicates that which is not per- 
 manent; something that will last only for a time. But I never said that Jesus 
 would feign as a temporal prince; but I did say, and I repeat it, that he now 
 reigns as a Prince; for God hath exalted him to be a Prince and a Savior; he 
 is "Prince of Peace," "Prince of Life," according to the testimony'of God's 
 word, and he is now ruling under the Father as Prince, while he also sits as 
 Mediator between us and God. He is to come, not to rule as a Prince, but to 
 reign as "King of kings;" and not King of kings only, but as "Lord of lords;" 
 "God blessed for ever." He ceases his princely rights, they are ended then, 
 and his kingly rights begin. 
 
 To show that what our friend calls his "mediatorial reign," or the reign of" 
 Christ in his kingly rights, will end with the introduction of his^ coming on the 
 earth, we are referred by Mr. Shinn to the first epistle of Paul to the Corinthi- 
 ans, fifteenth chapter, twenty-second and twenty-third verses. There are some, 
 very beautiful thoughts here which have already been presented by my brother, 
 in relation to the resurrection of the dead, and to which I will again refer. We- 
 read : 
 
 "Por as in Adam all die, even so in Christ, shall all be made alive. But every man in his- 
 own order; Christ the first fruits; afterward they tliat are Christ's at his coming." 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISOUSSION. 35 
 
 Surely, if all these testimonies that have been collated for, and presented to 
 «s, respecting the coming of Christ, indicate his coming at the time when the 
 brother intimates these words of Paul were to have their fulfillment; surely, if 
 this was the coming referred to, we should look for a grand resurrection to have 
 taken place at that time, in which all God's people became Christ's; wickedness, 
 too, should have ended; but was it so? The apostle speaks first of the resurrec- 
 tion of the dead, Christ the first fruits; then right following, "They that are 
 Christ's at his coming." Afterwards cometh the end. Hero in the twenty- 
 fourth verse, we have the adverbs then and when, connecting the two events 
 there named, the end and the deliverbg up of the kingdom. In the twenty- 
 third verse, we have the resurrection connected with the coming of Christ, 
 by the adverb at; and in the twenty-fourth and twenty-fifth verses, we have 
 his reign, connected with the coming of the end, and the giving up of the 
 kingdom to God, by the adverbs then and when. 
 
 First: The first resurrection, and they' that are Christ's at his coming. 
 
 Second : His reign, and the conquest of all enemies. 
 
 Third: The end,jrhen he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, 
 even the Father; when be shall have put down all rule, and all authority and 
 power; for he must reign UNTIL Jie hath put all enemies under his feet. 
 
 Let us now enquire concerning these events, and see whether the testimony 
 ef the apostle corroborates the statement made, that at Christ's coming all the 
 dead are to be raised. 
 
 I think the gentleman is laboring under a mistake here. In the first place, 
 the apostle is reasoning on the subject of the resurrection; but I n^ust not say 
 much about this subject now, as we expect to debate that two days from this time, 
 at which time we expect to adduce what evidence we can in support of the doctrine 
 of the resurrection of the body. We only pause to remark here, that the apos- 
 tle's teaching shows us that what we have lost by Adam, we shall gain by Christ; 
 "For as in Adam all die; even so in Christ shall all be made alive." This is a 
 general statement of the resurrection. "But every man in his own order." 
 
 He does not tell us here, whether it is to take an hour, ten years, or ten 
 thousand years to raise all these dead. But we think we shall be able to gather 
 this information from other testimonies, if necessary, when the proper time 
 comes to examine that question. We think we shall be able to show that the 
 resurrection does not take place at any one time; but for the accomplishment of 
 the great purpose for which Jesus died, they that are Christ's, shall be raised at 
 his coming, and after the raising of the dead in Christ, then cometh the end, etc. 
 
 The different classes in the resurrection will be easily distinguished from 
 each other, in consequence of the judgment that shall be passed upon them ; for 
 some are to arise, we are told in the forty to the forty-third verses of this fif- 
 teenth chapter of first Corinthians, with bodies whose glory is typified by the 
 Bun, and their glory is to be one; others are to have boaies less glorious than 
 these, typified by the moon, and the glory of these is to be one; others still are 
 to have bodies, whose glory is typified by the stars in the firmament of heaven ; 
 and "as one star differs from another star in glory, so also shall be the resurrection 
 of the dead," placing it, you see, in the. future tense. 
 
 The judgment to be rendered then is not in this life, but at some future 
 time, when we shall be judged according to the gospel law, administered by di- 
 vines hands. This gospel law has come unto us in this life, and if we shall have 
 lived in accordance therewith, by being obedient unto God, we shall receive a 
 reward for our obedience. 
 
 'But shall every one receive the same glory? No, no; God is too just for 
 that. There are some who will arise to one glory, and some to another. Just 
 
36 PORSeUTT AND' SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 as diversified as our lives have been here, will our glory be hereafter. Just as 
 our faith to' God has been, and the interest we have manifested in yielding obe- 
 dience unto him ; so will our reward and glory be in the kingdom of our God, 
 when he comes to reign, whose right it is to reign. In the justice of this futttre 
 judgment will our fidelity or disobedience be rewarded. 
 
 We are referred again to Acts 10 : 40-43, which I had before reviewed; 
 and though I do not like to recapitulate, I must call your attention to the 
 thought expressed with it : 
 
 "Him God raised up thef third day, and showed him openly; not to all the 'people, but to 
 witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose 
 Trom the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he 
 which was ordained of God to be the judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets 
 witness, that through his same whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." 
 
 The thought expressed by Brother Shinn, in connection with the latter part 
 of this quotation, I can most fully and readily endorse. Yes, Sir ; it is by and 
 through Christ; through faith in and obedience to him, we do receive remission 
 of our sins. Through Christ and Christ only, we may receive this blessing; but 
 that does not affect the meaning of the preceding verse, that he was ordained of 
 God to be the judge of quick and dead. Nor will it do to argue, as our friend 
 ■does, that this judgment is continuous, and not special, or that it is special, 
 affecting us here only, and not general and specific in its relations to the future. 
 The ordination and appointment had been given ; but the time when Christ 
 ^'sJiall judge the quick and the dead" is to be "at his appearing and kingdom." 
 
 It is-evident too that the highly favored and inspired Peter, (see his second 
 Epistle 2 : 9), understood this judgment to be a future one, when he wrote, "The 
 Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the un- 
 just unto the day of judgment, to be punished." With Peter agrees Jesus, also, 
 in John 12 :48, "The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him, [or 
 be the basis of judgment], in the last day." 
 
 The theory of a future judgment was admitted by all the Jewish nation, 
 excepting the Sadducees ; even the Samaritans, in a certain sense, endorsed it. 
 The whole of the Chasidim branch of the' Jewish church, and a portion of the 
 Zadikim branch received the doctrine ; the latter as founded on the testimony of 
 the prophets, the former as founded on the testimony of inspiration as well as 
 the tradition of the Elders. As a nation, they looked for the Messiah, as evi- 
 denced by history, by the form and subject matter of questions propounded to 
 Jesus, and by the Talmud. Bousseut, Bishop of Dauphin, (on the Talmud), in 
 his Universal History, relates that the Jews expected a great prophet like 
 Moses to be raised up to prepare the way of the Lord, to be followed by the 
 Messiah himself, who should sit in judgment and execute' justice, punish their 
 foes, and restore their national greatness and prestige with God. Josephus is not 
 silent upon this question. 
 
 Yes, Sir; people ages ago looked for one who should come, who 
 should be some great one, and who should rule the nations, and sit as 
 a judge over them, to divide rewards unto them. This, Sir, was believed, long 
 before this declaration was made by the apostle, "And he commanded us to 
 preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which][was ordained of God, 
 to be the judge of quick and dead." ' Why should he say, "It is he which was 
 ordained of God," unless some idea was in their minds of such a one having been 
 appointed? The fact is, they did believe in such a one, and all that remained 
 for the apostles to do, was to prove that this Jesus was the anticipated on?. 
 
 Upon this expectation, rests the theory of a future judgment with Israel. 
 The apostles were of those who expected such a Messiah, and though the time 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 37' 
 
 seemed to them to be deferred by his instructions, the manner in which they learned 
 this expectation would bo realized, coupled with their experience in the past 
 while with Jesus, gave them, confidence to teach a future judgment. 
 
 W^ turn again to the testimony of Paul, writing to Timothy his Son, in 
 the gospel, second epistle, fourth- chapter, and first verse r 
 
 "I oliarge thee before God, and the Locd Josus Christ, -who shall judge the quick and the 
 dead at his appearing and his kingdom." 
 
 Now, if this appearing and kingdom were in the days of the destruction of 
 Jerusalem, by Titus Vespasian, I want the brother to answer the question. In. 
 what peculiar sense did the kingdom of God then come? 
 
 The gentleman, after making this statement in support of his views; read to 
 us Alexander Campbell's testimony. Unfortunately for him, Mr. Campbell, 
 makes the kingdom to have come prior to that time, namely, on the day of Pen- 
 tecost. Whether this is correct or not, Mr. Campbell and my friend must de- 
 termine. If it came upon the day of Pentecost, it did liot need to come when. 
 Jerusalem was destroyed. 
 
 That it was establiftied on the day of Pentecost more permanently as a spir- 
 itual kingdom, I am not disposed for one moment to dispute; for the apostles 
 then gave the evidence that they were commanded by God to preach unto the 
 , people, and commenced then, by successful and earnest effort, to labor for the 
 accomplishment of the great purposes of Jesus. They had been endowed with 
 power from on high, after that Jesus had ascended on high, in order to the pro- 
 mulgation of tlie gospel. But there was no personal coming of Christ on the 
 day of Pentecost. 
 
 I suppose that the brother will maintain that the coming of the Roman 
 army, at the destruction of Jerusalem, was the coming of the Lord. Strange 
 representation of the Son of God coming in clouds, with the holy angels ! Titus, 
 with the Roman hosts, the Lord and his angels ! 
 
 The Roman power was represented by the iron part of the image which 
 Nebuchadnezzar saw. It was described by Daniel as a power that should break 
 in pieces and bruise, a characteristic of the Roman power well represented by 
 the iron. These Roman soldiers to be the angels, and the coming of the Roman 
 army to take Jerusalem, the coming of Jesus Christ to reign in power and glory! 
 Strange glory, this ! Strange condition of things this ! If we are thus to under- 
 stand the word of God, and thus to interpret the Holy Scriptures, the hopes of 
 the .good and great in all ages will be blasted. 
 
 That the kingdom of God was commenced in the 'days of Christ and the, 
 apostles, I do not doubt. I believe that the spiritual kingdom was commenced, 
 when Jesus began t6 preach the things of the kingdom of God. I believe that 
 that spiritual kingdom, more properly called the church, was an organization, 
 but it was not the kingdom promised. When Jesu^ was here he taught his 
 disciples to pray thus : '?Our Father, who art in heaven; hallowed be thy name; 
 thy kingdom come!" Why should Jesus teach them to pray, "Thy kingdom 
 come," if it had been established? Why should the apostle Paul write and tell 
 the brethren to look forw.ard to the time of the coming of the Lord, and v:ait 
 for his coming and kingdom, if that kingdom had already^ come? 
 
 Jesus certainly did not instruct them that the coming of the Roman army 
 should be his coming ; for he said : 
 
 "0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent 
 unto thee, how ofc would I have gathered you, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her 
 wings, but ye would not. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." 
 
 The mistake which the Jews made then, is the mistake which you are now 
 making. This coming of which you speak, was the very coming their prophets 
 
38 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISGUSSIOK 
 
 prophesied of; the very theme their poets sung of; the very subject their 
 Psalmist wrote about; they were all antieipatirig that coming. . 
 
 ' Paul suffered death under the tyrant Nero about the year 66 of the Chris- 
 tian era, Jerusalem was taken by Titus in the year 70; was this the "coming of 
 the Lord" he waited for, hoped for? • 3 e • 
 
 Was that judgment upon the Jewish nation the judgment prophesied of la 
 Scripture ? Jesus said to his apostles : 
 
 "■fe which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit m the 
 throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 
 
 If, Sir, that was the time when the judgment was given to him, as prophe- 
 sied of in Scripture, what position, please, did the apostles occupy?_ His prom- 
 ise to them was, that when he came in his glory, they should sit with him and 
 judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Here, Sir, the servant's thrones were located 
 with the throne of Jesus, their Master. 
 
 If this was fulfilled at the taking of Jerusalem by the Roman army, tell us 
 how, and where the brethren, the twelve apostles, then sat. 
 
 If Jesus then came to judgment, tell us all how the judgment was passed 
 upon them. 
 
 If the books were then opened ; tell us how and what books they were. 
 
 Tell us how the records of heaven were then read. 
 
 Tell us how the people were presented at the court of truth before which 
 they were then tried. 
 
 Tell us how the good and the bad were separated, as they are to be separ- 
 ated at the great judgment day. 
 
 If that be the time of Christ's judgment, please tell us who were judged. 
 
 These things did not transpire, at the taking of Jerusalem by the Roman 
 army, as they should have done, had that been the judgment day. If they are 
 not to take place at the judgment day, what, we enquire, do the promises and 
 threats of inspiration mean ? 
 
 We are referred again to the nineteenth chapter of Revelations, which we 
 before read. The brother states, and earnestly too, that this language is highly 
 figurative, symbolical language; yet he knows, as you know, that all symbolical 
 language, to have clear ideas conveyed by it, must be correct in the harmony of 
 all its parts. There must be no disunity of parts. 
 
 John tell us in this chapter, that he saw heaven opened; and one of the 
 objects which he saw in .heaven was Jesus. Now, according to the chronology 
 of the Bible, whatever evidences you may bring to the contrary, this book was not 
 written until sixty-three years after Jesus had ascended to heaven ; and he was 
 in heaven at the time this was written, which was about twenty-five years after 
 the destruction of Jerusalem. 
 
 The voice said to John, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things 
 which must be hereafter." If Jesus was then in heaven, his coming was a 
 future event at that time. The nineteenth chapter of Revelations begins thus: 
 "And after these things." After what things? The things described in the 
 preceding chapters, among which is the destruction of some great city called 
 Babylon ; a city, too, which should make all nations drunk with the wine of the 
 wrath of her fornication. Jerusalem never did that. History did not then pre- 
 sent a precedent for such a history as this. Even Tyre, that great maritime 
 power, to which many of the nations sought for their luxuries, and their beau- 
 tiful wares, never had such power as this city was to have. This city was to 
 have commerce with all the nations of the earth, by means of her wickedness; 
 by means of her sorceries ; by means of the power she should wield. This Jerusa- 
 lem never had. 
 
FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 3» 
 
 After the description of the city's destruction, the nineteenth chapter opeir« 
 "with the language : 
 
 "And after these things, I heard a great noise of much people in heaven, saying, Allelub; 
 salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God. For true and righteow 
 are his judgments; for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with hep 
 ■fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they sai^ 
 Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever." 
 
 FoUowing this, we come down to the quotation made for us, "And I saw 
 heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called 
 Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." Twentj- 
 five years, if the chronology be correct, — and it is supported by the concurring 
 testimony of twenty-six authors, — if their testimony be correct. Sir, the destruc- 
 tion of Jerusalem had taken ji?oce* twenty-five years before this testimony wa» 
 written. And when this revelation was given, the testimony in connectioa 
 "therewith was, "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." 
 
 Among these things, John also saw heaven opened, and this Faithful and 
 True One, whose coming to judge is future yet, was seen clothed with a vestur* 
 •dipped in blood, and his name is called the Word of God. * * * "And he hath 
 on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING- OF KINGS, AND 
 I.OED OF LORDS." 
 
 After all this. Sir, the angel cries, "Come up hither to the feast of th» 
 kings and nobles of the earth." What is there to happen now? Why, the tes- 
 timony of ancient prophets is here confirmed that when this great one shall 
 come that is to come, he will make war with the nations. The prophets of old 
 tell us that the. Saints shall be gathered, and the nations too shall be gathered 
 around them, and that the Lord shall then go forth and deliver them. "H« 
 shall fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle." 
 
 In the thirty-ninth chapter of Ezekiel, we read of a people coming up 
 against Israel, who are to be slain, and to the flesh of the mighty, and the blood 
 of princes, the fowls of heaven and the beasts of the .fifeld are to be invited ! A 
 preparation for that terrible day is being now made. View the aggregate force* 
 of Europe, the strength of Russia, the consolidation of the powers of Germanj 
 into one. See the work of God with Turkey, and with Spain, yet occupying 
 their seats of power, from which they are then to be hurled. If we understand 
 these things, and the signs of the times, we can see, that when those northern 
 ^nations, of which the prophet foretold, that every one should takes its place, be- 
 fore the coming of Jesus in power, and the very testimony in the nineteenth 
 ■chapter of Revelations quoted against our position, will be fulfilled, and we wilt 
 be proven right, for Christ will come to commence his judgment. 
 
 "Time" was called, and Elder Forscutt sat down, 
 t 
 Elder Shinn's fourth argument. 
 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 My brother seems to be under the impression, that the testimony of scholar- 
 ly men like Alexander Campbell, has nothing to do with, and I do not know 
 as I would be going too far to say, is of no force in this discussion. I beg leave 
 to differ from my brother in regard to this matter. If the testimony of learned 
 men upon a passage of Scripture, is decidedly in my favor, I have a perfect right 
 to receive that testimony; and it is offeree, too, as the brother will find before 
 ■the close of this discussion. What these scholarly men have said upon these 
 j)assages of Scripture, he will find to be of force, before this discussion closes. 
 It is to be presumed that a person who has devoted nearly his entire lifetime to 
 ithe study of the Scriptures, to the obtaining of knowledge, and study of the 
 
40 FORSCUT,T AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 Bible, would be apt to know something of it. When their testimony agrees 
 with me, I have a perfect right to use it. 
 
 He says, Jesus Christ will reign as a temporal King, and tries to prove it 
 from first Corinthians, fifteenth chapter, commmencing with the twenty-second 
 verse, he reads for this purpose, and tries to prove that Jesus will reign as tem- 
 poral King at the end of his mediatorial reign; or at the end of his reign; I 
 will leave out the word mediatorial, since the brother objects to it. Twenty- 
 third verse of this chapter reads, "But every man in his own order; Christ the 
 first fruits; afterward they that are Chj-ist's at his coming." Then take the 
 brother's explanation of the adverb of time, "Then, cometh tjie end," the end of 
 Christ's reign, "when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the 
 Father." Now, precisely at the time my brother says he is to come and begin ixy 
 reign, the apostle says, "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up 
 the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule, 
 and all authority, and power." Even these ten kings, the brother emphasized 
 in his speech this morning, are to be put down. 
 
 'Tor he must reign, till lie hath put all enemies under his feet: the last enemy that shall 
 be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, All 
 things are put under him, it is manifest he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 
 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also be subject unto himi 
 that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." 
 
 This is the end of the Messiah's reign, his spiritual reign, when all men 
 shall have been constituted pure and holy, under the Messiah's reign, blessed^ 
 forever blessed. 
 
 But my brother supposes that he makes a point right here. - I do not un- 
 derstand him plainly. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be 
 made alive : but every man in his own order ; Christ the first fruits." 
 
 Now, my brother, there are but two orders in the resurrection, "Christ the 
 first fruits; afterwards, they that are Christ's at his coming." All mankind 
 shall be his at that coming, as I have shown you from this testimony you have' 
 introduced here. My brother refers again, to Acts 10:42,2 Timothy 4:1. 
 His coming at the destruction of Jerusalem. Here my brother emphasizes this 
 matter particularly, to make it appear out of place, and places a great degree of 
 stress upon the destruction of Jerusalem, when I have told him timie and again, 
 that tbe kingdom of heaven was to come in gradually. 
 
 Rev. 19. I will have to call my brother's attention to the date of the 
 Apocalypse. We might as well fix that up right away. My brother is aware 
 that this is a matter of great importance to him, the date of thg Apocalypse ; 
 for he must rely upon the Apocalypse being written before the destruction of Je- 
 rusalem, for his strong arguments in this discussion. I shall introduce a few 
 evidences in regard to this matter now, and more by and by. We find reference ' 
 made in the Apocalypse to the city of Jerusalem, as still standing at the time 
 that book was written. Speaking of those two who had been slain for the testi- 
 mony of Jesus, j^he revelator says : • 
 
 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called 
 Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." — Eev. 5 : 8. 
 
 It was the custom with the sacred writers, to call one city by the name of 
 another, to signify some particular point. Jerusalem was called Sodom and 
 Egypt, on account of its wickedness. "Spiritually called Sodom and Egypt." 
 But our quotation settles all doubt as to the place referred to, by adding to this, 
 "Where also our Lord was crucified." The bodies of these two witnesses were 
 to lie in the streets of Jerusalem. How could this be, if the city had been 
 destroyed at the time ? After three days and a half, the Spirit of life from God,. 
 
FORSOUTT AND SRINN' S DISCUSSION. 41 
 
 is to enter into them, according to the description of the Revelator. All this is 
 to take place in the city where our Lord was crucified. How could the Keve- 
 lator have given this description, unless he had written before the destruction of 
 Jerusalem. 
 
 Another argument, founded upon the mention made of the temple made in 
 eleventh chapter. After the mighty angel had sworn time should be no longer, 
 and John had received a commission to preach and prophesy before many 
 nations, then the temple was to be measured and prepared for its destruction. 
 
 "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod; and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and 
 measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which 
 is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and tho 
 holy_city shall they tread under foot forty and two mouths." 
 
 Our Lord said Jerusalem should be trodden under foot of the Gentiles. — 
 Luke 21 : 24. We have the testimony of learned men to bring forward if neces- 
 sary. I am now through with my brother's speech for the present. 
 
 I now reach argument Five. 
 
 Matthew 24th and 25th chapters is a continued prophecy or discourse of 
 Jesus to his disciples. Now I remark here, that there has been a great deal of 
 diflSoulty in deciding upon the verse, or passage of scripture, where the old Jew- 
 ish order of things ceases, and the Messiah's reign is ushered in. I do not 
 know as two do agree. Daniel's discourses, the prophet's discourses; and, mark 
 it, Jesus' discourses to his disciples. Shall we read them ? It is quite an un- 
 dertaking to read all this Scripture, but I do not see how we Ccan avoid it. 
 
 Matthew 24th chapter. — "And Jesus went out and departed from the temple: and hi-s. 
 disciples came to him for to show him concerning the buildings of the temple. And Jesan 
 said unto them. See ye not all these things? Verily, I say unto you, there shall not be left- 
 here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the Mount 
 of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying. Tell us when shall those things be ? 
 and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world." 
 
 Mark it, brother; the literal word is aioon, age. 
 
 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you; for many 
 shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of 
 wars and rufnors of wars : see that ye be not troubled : for all these things must come to pass, 
 but the end is not yet." 
 
 The end of what? The end of the Jewish age. 
 
 "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; .and there shall be 
 famine and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places. All these are the beginning of sor- 
 rows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afElioted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated 
 of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one 
 anbther, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall arise and deceive many. 
 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall en- 
 dure unto the end, the same shall be saved." 
 End of the Jewish age, certainly. 
 
 "And this gospel'of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness^ unto 
 allnatioiis; and then shall the end come. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of 
 desolation spoken of by Daniel the propet, stand in the holy place. (Whoso readeth, let him 
 understand.) Then let them' which be in Judea, flee into the mountains; let him which is on 
 the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house : neither let hini which is in 
 the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and them 
 that give suck in those days I But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the 
 sabbath day." 
 
 Mark it; ye, my disciples: 
 
 "For then shall be'great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world to 
 this time, no, nor even shall be." And except those days should be shortened, there should 
 no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake these days shall be shortened. Then if any man 
 shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe it not. For there shall arise, falso- 
 Christ's, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; inspmuch that, if it were- 
 
42 FORSOUTT 'AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 pbaaible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. _ Wherefore, if 
 they shall say unto you, Behold, he is iu the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret 
 •chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto 
 the west; so shall also the coming, of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcass la, 
 there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days 
 ;shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from 
 heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the 
 Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the 
 Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he shall send 
 his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the 
 ifour winds, from one end of the heaven to the othef. Now learn a parable of the fig-tree ; when 
 his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh. So likewise 
 ye, [my disciples], when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." 
 
 It. What? His coming; his coming in glory; his coming in clouds; it 
 is nigh, even at the doors. 
 
 "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, until all these things be fulfilled." 
 
 I will make an argument by and by, on the phrase, "this generation," that 
 my brother can work on all day to-morrow." 
 
 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that d»y 
 -and hour kuoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the 
 ■days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days befora 
 the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that 
 Noe entered the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall 
 also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field ; the one shall be taken, 
 and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the 
 ■other left." 
 
 The old Jewish custom was for the women to do the drudgery : 
 "Watch therefore ; for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, 
 that if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would 
 have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken, up. Therefore be ye als» 
 ready : for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful 
 and wise servant, whom his Lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat ia 
 due season? Blessed is that servant whom the Lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing. 
 Terily, I say unto you, that he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil 
 servant shall say in his heart. My Lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to smite his fel:- 
 low seryauts, and to eat and drink with the drunken; the Lord of that servant shall come ia 
 a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him 
 asunder, and appoint him his portion among hypocrites : there shall be weeping and gnashing 
 ■of teeth." 
 
 That this is connected with the twenty-fifth chapter, is evident, from the 
 manner in which the twenty-fifth chapter is introduced: "Then shall the king- 
 dom of heaven be likened to ten virgins," etc. Then comes in the thought of 
 the kingdom of heaven being compared unto a man traveling into a far country, 
 who called his servants unto him, and delivered unto them his goods. This 
 parable continues unto the thirty-first verse, where the parable of the sheep and 
 the goats is introduced. 
 
 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then 
 ishall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations, and he 
 ■shall separate them, [or judge them, as I have explained], one from another, as a shepherd di- 
 videlh his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats 
 •on the left." 
 
 It certainly is a fact, that the twenty-fourth and twenty-fifth chapters of 
 Matthew relate to one continuous discourse. Let us notice the context. The 
 twenty-fourth commences thus : "And Jesus went out, and departed from the 
 temple." The thirty-ninth verse of the twenty-third chapter reads thus : "For 
 I say unto you, ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he 
 *hat cometh in the name of the Lord." 
 
 Signs preceding his coming, were certainly fulfilled. Matthew 24 : 3 : 
 
FORSCUTT AND SfflNN'S DISCUSSION. 4« 
 
 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, 
 Tell us, when shall these things he? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the eni'' 
 of the world?" 
 
 The first sign was, many shall come in my name, etc. Mat. 24 : 4-6 : 
 
 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Far 
 many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many." 
 
 Tenth verse. — "Then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another." 
 
 Mark 13 : 5, 6, in this connection : 
 
 "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed, lest any man deceive you. Far 
 many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many." 
 
 This was literally fulfilled. Luke 21 : 8 : 
 
 "And he said. Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, sit- 
 ing, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them." 
 
 The second sign of his coming was, "Ye shall hear of wars and rumors." 
 Matthew 24 : 7 : 
 
 "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall b* 
 famines, and pestilences, and ea«thquakes, in divers places." 
 
 Hark 13: 8. — "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: ant 
 there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: thes* 
 are the beginnings of sorrows." 
 
 Mark 13 : T..— "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumqrs of wars, be ye not troubled); 
 for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet." 
 
 Luke 21 : 9. — "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified : for the«» 
 things must lirst come to pass ; but the end is not by and by." 
 
 From Matthew 24 : 7, Mark 13 : 8, Luke 21 : 10. 
 
 We note again as the third sign of his coming, famines and pestilencei. 
 Acts 11 :27, 28, is also in this connection. 
 
 Fourth sign of his coming was earthquakes. Luke 21 : 11 : 
 
 "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences, and fear- 
 ful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven." 
 
 Josephus, in his writings, testifies concerning the signs that showed them- 
 selves in the heavens. He says, among other things, that preceding the destruc- 
 tion of Jerusalem, a comet, with a tail in the shape of a sword, hung oyer tht- 
 city, and did not go down for the space of a year. That one of the ponderona 
 gates which required the united strength of twenty men to open it, was known t» 
 open of its own accord, (yet not of its own accord, hut without human aid.\ 
 That a Jidfer, being led to the sacrifice, was known to lie down and give birtk 
 to a lamh. That fierce, contending armies were seen in the heavens, marching 
 and countermarching, besieging cities, etc. 
 
 In this connection you might probably call the fifth sign, fearful sights and 
 great signs from heaven. Fearful and great signs was there to be from heaven. 
 
 Matthew 24 : 9, 10. — "Then shall tliey deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill yon; 
 and ye shall be hated Of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, 
 and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another." 
 
 Mark 13:9. — "But take heed to yourselves; for they shall deliver you up to councils; 
 < and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten : and ye shall be brought before rulers and.kings for 
 my sake, for a testimony against them." 
 
 Luke 21 ; 12. — "But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, 
 delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulem 
 for my name's sake." 
 
 And thus I believe the signs spoken of here were literally fulfilled. Let 
 us now notice MattheW 24 : 14: 
 
 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness, unt» 
 all nations, and then shall the end come." 
 
 I claim, my brother, that this is one of the signs of the fulfillment of that 
 
44 FORSGUTT AND SSUSTN'S,. BlSGirSSlOJV. 
 
 coming, and you will agree with me. I call your attention to the testimony of 
 the Scriptures upon this point. 
 
 Rom. 10 : 18.— "But I say, Have they not heard ? Tes, verily, their sound wentjnto'all 
 the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." 
 
 Here we notice the fulfillment of Jesus' words, "This gospel of the kingdom 
 shall be preached, in all the world." 
 
 Col. 1 : 23.4-" And be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, 
 and which was preached to every creature which is Under heaven; whereof I, Paul, am made 
 a minister." 
 
 The testimony of Paul then is, that this gospel was preached in all the 
 world, and Jesus' words are, when this is done, "then shall the end come," or his 
 coming take place. 
 
 Elder Shinn yielded the floor to the call of the Moderator. 
 
 Elder Forscutt's reply to Elder Shinn's fourth argument. 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 The testimony that has been presented to us, respecting the destruction of 
 Jerusalem, is testimony so well established that I have neither will nor power to 
 gainsay it; but the argument drawn from it, seems to me to be very far-fetched;3 
 to' fall very far short of the truth ; to be very deficient in illustrating that dis- 
 play of Grod's power which is prophecied of, and which is recorded in the ehap--j 
 ter read to us. 
 
 Before I call your attention to the consideration of that chapter, I will' 
 notice a very few of the thoughts expressed by our brother, at the opening of his 
 speech. 
 
 He tells us that if the testimony of learned men, like Alexander Campbell, 
 will aid him, (I do not pretend to give the words, but the idea), will aid him in 
 his argument, that he will use it in this discussion. Supposing that the testimony 
 of a number of other learned men should militate against his argument, or other 
 testimony of Mr. Campbell should do so, what then? Would he not reason, "I 
 do not want that which militates against me, only that which sustains me?" I 
 imagine his acts would so argue, whether his speech did or not. 
 
 "My brother" wishes me to be consistent. I like that idea in his argument; 
 for I admire consistency. If I go to the fountain of learning, I ought to drink 
 deep draughts. "A little learning is a dangerous thing," is said by a philosopher. 
 If I should take Alexander Campbell's doctrinal evidence upon one passage of 
 Scripture, as conclusive, I should upon all. If I regard him as competent to de- 
 cide upon one point, doctrinally, because he is a learned man, I should regard 
 him as being competent to decide upon other points. For instance, Mr. Camp- 
 bell was very earnest indeed, upon the subject of baptism; declaring, positively, 
 that no man could be saved without it. When he tells us that we are to be im- 
 mersed for the remission of our sins, and that sprinkling or pouring will not do, 
 my brother does not accept his testimony, because, as he would intimate, it does ; 
 not suit his argument. "Be consistent." 
 
 It is a rule in court, that when I bring a witness to the stand, in defense of 
 my position, I am bound by the, testimony of that witness. We have here seve-, 
 ral reporters for the courts, and they will tell you I am bound by the testimony 
 of the witness I have introduced in the case. If you introduce, in support of 
 your views, the testimony of Mr. Campbell, respecting the tingdom of God, I 
 shall hold you to his testimony throughout. 
 
 Alexander Campbell declares that the kingdom was not organized until the, 
 day of Pentecost. ^,e explains to us the work commencing with John theBap- 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DWCUSSION. '45 
 
 tist; but says that the kingdom was organized on the day of Pentecost. Yes, 
 Sir, your witness condemns your argument. When Mr. Campbell or others pat 
 my brother on the shoulder, he replies, "You are right; good fellows j" but 
 when they hit his theory a knock, he says, "Away with you, I want nothing to 
 do with you." If I brought a witness upon the stand, I would stick to him 
 through the trial, at least, or until one of us was dead. Be consistent, brother. 
 
 The gentleman made the statement, that I said Christ would enter upon his 
 reign as a temporal king. I do not call the brother's attention to this to again 
 review his argument in this connection; but to correct him. I should have 
 corrected him when he made the statement, but I did not wish to interrupt him. 
 You will all remember that I corrected him once befere, on the word temporal, 
 and traced the word to its origin, to its root, and showed from the very nature 
 and meaning of the word, that Christ would not be a temporal prince, because 
 anything temporal was not lasting. In contradistinction to this, the kingdom 
 will not be temporal, but eternal. The things we now call temporal, will have 
 passed through a change, which will make them eternal before Christ delivers up 
 his kingdom, about whicl^,the brother makes quite an argument, which, in some 
 . respects, I shall call your attention to again. 
 
 I thus review more carefully, because the brother does not give me enough 
 to do in reply to argument on his side. Let mo repeat my position. Christ will 
 establish his kingdom never more to be thrown down; his reign over it for the 
 specified time of a thousand years, without opposition, does not imply that oppo- 
 sition will end his reign after that time, and for the "little season," for the 
 season of conflict will be for him a season of conquest, and he will consume his 
 foes unto the end. 
 
 "The end !" What is this time of the end when the kingdom will be de- 
 livered up? When we examine the testimony given concerning it, it is to dis- 
 cover that Jesus is to have power to call from the dead those who sleep in their 
 tombs, and that they are to live with Christ. Why, Sir, the idea of living with 
 ■ Christ, is suggestive of time. You may say it takes but a moment of time, you 
 may reduce it to the smallest minimum possible, the shortest possible period of 
 time, and yet the idea of living, involves the idea of time to live in. Then there 
 is to be time, after the resurrection, and before he ceases to reign merely as king 
 in time. There is to be a period of time between these two events, whether it 
 be long or short, whether it be a year or a thousand years, as it is spoken of in 
 Scripture, a time in which Jesus shall live with his people. 
 
 And that I may make clear my thoughts upon this, I will call your atten- 
 tion to the twentieth chapter of Revelations, although I did not design doing so 
 in debating this proposition, as we will have an opportunity to discuss that more 
 fully in the examination of the resurrection. 
 
 Rev. 20: 4. — "And I saw tlu-ones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto 
 them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the 
 word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received 
 his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a 
 thousand years. Bid, Uie rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. 
 This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection : ' 
 on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and 
 shall reign with him a thousand years." 
 
 Yes; the apostles and prophets of Crod, the holy men of every age, who 
 have part in this blessed, this first resurrection, shall be permitted to "live and 
 reign with him a thousand years." 
 
 We discover, too, from this testimony', not only that there shall be a thous- 
 and years' reign of those who are called to life at the coming of Christ; "but," 
 that "the rest of the dead lived not again, until the thousand years were 
 
48 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 finished." This reign with Christ "a thousand years," is to take place before 
 the end. 
 
 There is a chain of events spoken of in this chapter, and among these the 
 jutdgment. First, Satan is to be bound through the thousand years' reign, so 
 4hat he shall have no power over the hearts of the children of men ; but at the 
 end of the thousand years, he is to be loosed for a little season. For what pur- 
 pose? In order that every opportunity niay be offered unto man for him to re- 
 ceive or reject the truth, before condemnation is passed upon him; for the whole 
 scheme, the whole polity of the gospel of Christ, the government of God among 
 •men, from the beginning of "the world, down to to-day, is based- upon the moral 
 agency of man. This millennium, or thousand years' reign, shall be what the 
 'Scriptures testify, a reign on the earth. 
 
 These naftions or peoples who are presented to our notice, will be gathered 
 before him. There will be children born through that age, as well as now, and 
 as the doctrine of man's moral agency, which we have announced, is necessarily 
 •true, the moral agency of these then born among the nations must be honored, 
 j»nd the opportunity given for development in evil as well as in goodness. In 
 that glorious time predicted by Isaiah, in his sixty-fifth chapter, from the, 
 eighteenth verse to the end, we discover that children will be born to Israel 
 when God creates "Jerusalem a rejoicing and her people a joy;" when "the 
 wolf," "the lion" and "the serpent" "shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy 
 mountain, saith the Lord." Jeremiah also describes in other language the re- 
 building of the city of Jerusalem with the palace thereof, when "their children 
 shall be as aforetime. * * * And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." 
 Bead carefully Jeremiah 30 : 18-24, Isaiah 27 : 6, and Ezekiel 36 : 8-15. The 
 nations who are not of Israel shall also exist, at the time of the end, though a 
 great change will have been wrought among and upon them during the millen- 
 nium, and they have been made, tributary to Israel, which could not be if none 
 were born unto them during that time, for their generation would all have died. 
 Nor does it follow that they who have died during the millennium will not have 
 ifceen tried, for only to Zion and the locajity called in Scripture prophecy "my 
 holy mountain," does the promise extend, "Nothing shall hurt., nor destroy." 
 Other nations will exist, and the gospel will be presented to them. Satan also 
 will work among these nations for a little season, for the purpose of trying them 
 and those newly born, and seeing whether they will abide in the truth, and walk 
 in the ways of God. After the thousand years' reign, and the intervention of 
 the "little season," "then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the 
 kingdom to God, even the Father, that he may be all in all." 
 
 We can not profit by reference to the Scriptures, if we take one isolated 
 passage, and make all our argument upon that; we should let one passage ex- 
 plain another passage, and in this way only can we arrive at proper conclusions! 
 If I call up Paul as a witness, as my brother has called up Alexander Campbell, 
 I must take his testimony throughout. 
 
 ' I must notice one more thing the brother says, and that is in regard to the 
 time when the Apocalypse was written. In all candor, notwithstanding his criti- 
 cism, which I think can be answered satisfactorily, let me ask my brother. Where 
 this book, called the Apocalypse, was written ? Was it not upon the Isle of Patmos^ 
 Let me ask again, my brother, What do historians tell us concerning the time 
 when John was banished to the Isle of Patmos? I have not only the testimony 
 of one man, but the testimony of probably twenty-five learned men such as Home, 
 Le Clercj Basnage, Dr. Mills, Dr. Lardner, Bishop Tomline and others, all of 
 whom testify to the one same truth, — (if it is wanted, I wi]l give othqr names)/ 
 
FOESCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. it 
 
 — all these testify that John was banished to the Isle of Patmos by Domitian, 
 about the ninety-fifth year of the Christian era. 
 
 If he wrote the Apocalypse on the Isle of Patmos, and did not go tJiere un- 
 til the year 95, I should like to to know by what evidence my brother will be 
 able to prove that the Apocalypse was written before the destruction of Jerusa- 
 lem. 
 
 We have the testimony also, that John returned in the year 97. The care 
 of Mary, the mother of Jesus,' was committed to him, and he doubtless remained 
 in the province of Judea till her death, or till about the year 65. From the- 
 65th to the 95th year of the Christian era, John doubtless, according to the best 
 human authorities we have, labored in Ephesus and Asia Minor, having there: 
 an opportunity of communicating with all the churches, Ephesus being the me- 
 tropolis of proconsular Asia, and having very extensive commercial connections, 
 such opportunity being necessary for him as the Revelator to the Church, Peter 
 and John being both dead. In or abput the year 95, he was banished thence to 
 the Isle of Patmos, by order of the Emperor Domitian, and remained there untiL 
 the year 97, when, Nerva having become Emperor, he returned to Ephesus, 
 where he wrote his gosfUl, i* being written after the Apocalypse. 
 
 Now comes the question again : If John wrote this Apocalypse on the Isle 
 of Patmos, and himself says he was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, on that 
 Island where he had been banished for the gospel's sake; if, twenty-five years- 
 after Jerusalem was destroyed the angel came to him and showed to him a» 
 stated in the introduction to this book, chapter one, verse one, "The revelation 
 of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things 
 •which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto- 
 his servant John : who bare record," how could this "revelation," given twenty- 
 five years after the destruction of Jerusalem, be a prophecy of things shortly to 
 "come to pass," if it related to that event? The prophecy is future, and in this 
 book John beheld Jesus coming in his kingdom. 
 
 I djid not know what the brother's peculiar faith was in regard to the kingdom 
 of God, but I supposed from his rendering of the words of Jesus to the Pharisees, 
 in regard to his kingdom, that he had a very just and true conception of what it 
 . took to constitute the kingdom of God. But from his last speech, and the argu- 
 ments and quGtations made, I learn that he believes it is a spiritual work in the 
 hearts of the children of men. 
 
 Now this, we think, is a very great mistake; for there never was such a 
 thing as a kingdom, there never will be, never can be, without a king to govern, 
 subjects to be governed, laws to govern by, oflScers to adminster those laws, a 
 locality and a name. The idea that an organization of this kind was in the 
 heart, or can be in the heart, is too preposterous to be for a moment received.. 
 
 The belief that the kingdom of God is spiritual, is founded upon a declara^ 
 tion of Jesus made to the Pharisees, "the kingdom is within you." This, my 
 brother stated,- he believed, was more correctly rendered in the. margin, "among- 
 you," If Jesus meant that his kingd6m, the fruit of which is "peace and joy 
 in the Holy Ghost," was -within those whom he addressed, then these wicked. 
 Pharisees, of whom Jesus enquired^ "How can ye escape the damnation of hell," 
 had peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. Our brother likes consistency ! 
 
 The kiqgdom of God is an organization into which people can enter, and 
 this kingdom in its ultimate triumph is to come, when Jesus shall be "King of' 
 kings, and Lord of lords." The expectations of Israel for that kingdom are 
 shared by us, Sir, in relation to the coming of Jesus, in some very important 
 particulars. It did not come_ when Jesus was here before; it is yet future, and. 
 with it, the Judgnient. Varied will be the scenes not yet enacted on the eartk 
 
48 FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISGUSSION. 
 
 before then ; the preparation of God's people, and the filling up of the cup of the 
 iniquity of their enemies whose doom is foretold in the sacred record, before the 
 judgment age sets in, are among the works necessary in order to fulfill prophecy. 
 
 To refer many of these prophecies to the events that transpired when 
 Jerusalem was destroyed, is to furnish doubt to the mind of the believer, 
 and weapons of great power, ofierisive weapons too, to the sceptic, for in tltose 
 events these prophecies were not fulfilled. The testimony concerning the destruc- 
 tion of Jerusalem, seems to be very conclusive, in some respects ; and it seems 
 to some of you, perhaps, as though it would be impossible to avoid the conclu- 
 eion Elder Shinn has arrived at, from the explanation which lie has given. If 
 this is the complete explanation, all the explanation which he is intending to 
 give of this event, it leaves out a great many of the events whici have yet to 
 take place, which are y^t to be fulfilled, which are yet in the far distant future. 
 
 My brother introduces to our notice here, some'testimony concerning the end, 
 and quotes for us what is said concerning this end by other writers, and what is 
 given as the proper rendering of the Gtreek word, '■'■Aion." The congregation 
 present will gather a much clearer idea of our views on the question in dispute 
 from the English, than they can from the Greek. Yet, and what his object may 
 be I have no right to judge, our friend refers so much to the Greek that I feel 
 compelled to notice it. 
 
 To Elder Shinn. — I suppose you read from the Diaglott? 
 
 Elder Shinn. — Yes, Sir. The Emphatic Diaglott. 
 
 Elder Forscutt.— Griesbach's ? 
 
 Elder Shinn. — Yes, Sir. 
 
 Elder Forscutt. — I am a little acquainted with it. Griesbach's Greek text' 
 has been adopted by Mr. Benjamin Wilson, and Mr. Wilson, in his very excel- 
 lent and useful Emphatic version, gives the literal meaning of this word; accord- 
 ing to the best and standard authors, as also does the Rev. John Groves, Horsely, 
 Greenfield, Dr. Adam Clarke, Scott, Campbell, Henry, De Wette, Jacobus, Liv- 
 crmore, Tholuck, Bloomfield, Wesley, Benson, Kuinoel, Olshausen, and Barnes, 
 and as they give the varied shades of meaning attached to this word, I will give 
 you that meaning as summarized from the united testimony, of these seventeen 
 learned men. Aion signifies, primarily, ever being; from aei ever, an on being; 
 also a, space or period of time; time; through lifetime; a period; life; one's 
 time of life; eternity; young in age; age; an age; a revolution of ages; dura- 
 tion, or continuance of time; a dispensation; a dispensation of providence; this 
 world; this present life; the world, or life to come; one's lot in life; a long 
 space of time; forever; an era; period of a dispensation; for one's life long; 
 generation ; duration, finite or infinite ; unlimited duration ; a period of duration, 
 past or future. 
 
 The effort of Elder Shinn to attach specific significations to this word, signi- 
 fications supportive of his own peculiar views, may be or seem to be laudable ; 
 but if such application of specific and arbitrary meanings to words found in the 
 original was allowable as evidence in this debate, I could, with less difficulty 
 than, my friend experiences on his side, unite several of the definitions given by 
 our learned expositors, to the overthrow of his favorite theme now under discus- 
 sion; but such evidence is not permissable. I must confine myself, as much as 
 my friend's wanderings will allow me to do so, to the evidence found in Kign 
 James' version; and I once more call his attention to the fact that that version, 
 amd neither the Diaglott nor any other hut that, is the standard of reference. 
 
 Whatever meaning may be attached by "Brother Shinn" to the word Aim, 
 or its derivative, the adjective, aionias, the audience, I trust, will not be influ- 
 enced thereby, unless such meaning agree with the context. Correlative pas- 
 
FORSCUTT AND SEINN'S DISCUSSION. 49 
 
 sages, and thoughts correlating to those in the passage quoted, as well as the 
 contextual relation of whatever occurs before and after the quotation made, must 
 be duly considered. How, then, of the twenty-seven meanings of this Ghreek 
 word, or different shades of meaning, which we h^ve given, can we consistently 
 select one only; and if but one, Which one must we select? By what right does 
 my friend select one, to the exclusion of all the rest? I think that the render- 
 ing given to this word by the learned bishops who translated this, (holding up 
 King James' version), is sufficiently correct. The term age, however, is sugges- 
 tive of some period. 
 
 We pass froto this to again notice the testimony concerning the destriiction 
 of Jerusalem. Josephus, Sir, has given to us testimony relating to this. Some 
 you have presented, and some you have not. He Spea-ks of one Jesus, the son 
 of Ananias, who for four years was seen and heard as one crying unto the people, 
 until finally he was smitten by the enemy at the siege, uttering a lamentable 
 "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house !" Several 
 different authors have given their testimony concerning the destruction of Je- 
 rusalem, forming an arr^ of testimony which shows the fearful troubles and ca- 
 lamities that came upon the Jews. 
 
 I have. Sir, a little book, published by the Young Men's Bible Society, 
 designed for the instruction of the young men who attend the theological semin- 
 ary, and in this book the testimony of these authors is given to us, showing 
 plainly the manner in which jbhe peculiar items of prophecy recorded in God's 
 book against Jerusalem were fulfilled. during the time of the troubles of the 
 Jews. Yet, Sir, notwithstanding this, I fail to see that that destruction is the 
 ' destruction spoken of as the destruction of the world. For instance, I read 
 in Matthew 24 : 26, 27 : 
 
 "Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold, ha is in the desert; go not forth : behold, 
 he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and 
 shineth even uuto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." 
 
 If the Roman army represented the coming of Jesus, they should have 
 come from the east to the west; but instead of this, they came from the west to 
 the east. If this is to be understood literally, you had better examine your map 
 a little. Was the coming of the Roman army like the lightning shining 
 from the east, even unto the west? When Jesus comes, as the lightning shin- 
 eth forth from the east, even unto the west, so his power will not be confined 
 to Jerusalem; but his glory shall go through all the earth. This will be literal- 
 ly, truly, a shining from the east unto the west. 
 
 Again, in evidence, we notice the testimony given by Matthew concerning 
 the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars before he comes to judgment; also 
 read in connection Mark 13 : 24-26, and Luke 21 : 25-27 : 
 
 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall 
 not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall 
 be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power 
 and glory." 
 
 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars ; and upon the 
 earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing 
 them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for tha 
 powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall thoy see the Son of man coming in a 
 cloud, with power and great glory." 
 
 There is no account published concerning the solar and planetary system 
 that would justify the assertion, that the sun was darkened, and the stars fell 
 from heaven, in any special or seemingly miraculous sense, (I use the term mi- 
 raculous in a theological sense), after the prophecy and prior to the destruction of 
 Jerusalem. No direct testimony is given to show anything that would justify 
 such a conclusion. 
 
50 FORSOUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 The great comet of 1843, whose train is said to have been two hundred 
 millions of miles in length, and which "approaphed so near to the sun as almost 
 «to graze his surface, and yet was of such intense brilliancy that it was seen in 
 •open day light, was something that has not yet been satisfactorily accounted for 
 <by the eminently scientific astronomers of our day; who only declare by way of 
 'explanation that there are but "one or two similar cases on record." This, what- 
 ever its origin, mission or object, is certainly, in the light of that philosophy 
 which existed when the prophecy of Jesus was delivered, a "sign in the heavens 
 above," and, I hesitate not to affirm, one of the signs that was to be seen before 
 lie comes "in the throne of his Father's glory. The celebrated comet of Dr. Hal- 
 ley, observed in 1682, he was able to trace as the same that had appeared in 
 1456, 1531, and 1607, and could on the basis of this computation predict the 
 reappearance of it again in 1759, failing only in between one and two years. 
 This same comet appeared again in 1835, and can now be traced back as far as 
 -eleven years before Christ; its periodical return aiding us in determining with 
 isome degree of accuracy the correctness of our chronology. The comets known 
 •as Olber's, Faye's, Brorsen's, and De Vico's are traceable. Encke's comet can 
 "be confidently looked for once in about three and a half years, and Biela's once 
 in six and three-fourth years; but that of 1843 is yet an unsolved mystery. 
 iDonati's return is predicted; but on this all are silent. 
 
 There is no evidence of any darkening of the sun, or falling of the stars 
 "having taken place, when this destruction came upon Jerusalem. This was to 
 happen; yes. Sir, this darkening of the sun was one of the events which was to 
 'precede the coming of the Lord. 
 
 Astronomy teaches us firstly that, owing to the necessity of the moon being 
 in the plane of the ecliptic in order that she may pass neither above nor below 
 the cone of the earth's shadow; total eclipses of the sun are less frequent than 
 they would be if she had not an angular inclination of about five degrees; second- 
 ly, that eclipses are of three kinds, 1st, annular, when a ring is visible round 
 the body of the moon; 2di, partial, when only a portion of the sun is invisible; 
 3d, total, when the sun is entirely covered by the dark disc of the moon; and 
 thirdly, that, therefore, a total eclipse of the sun is a very rare occurrence. If, 
 therefore, our "brother" should argue against the literality of this prophecy, it 
 will not avail him ; no, not even though he should attempt to prove that thpse 
 things "happen according to law," for he who created them is their Law-giver, 
 and his own Son who predicted these events as landmarks to us poor mariners 
 on the ocean of time, pointing to the period of his glorious return, is he by 
 whom they were also created. 
 
 In speaking of the darkening of the sun on May 19th, 1780, the editor of 
 the Portsmouth Journal declared that there has been nothing like it recorded 
 in the history of man. It was a total eclipse of the sun in the Eastern States. 
 How much further the eclipse was visible we are not advised. It was looked 
 upon then both by the religious and irreligious as one of the signs of an impend- 
 ing judgment. Nor was this the view of that event had by the uneducated 
 alone, if our history be reliable. Do you not remember in reading your school 
 boy history, that at that time there was one in the halls of Congress who has 
 since become justly celebrated for his firmness, when through fear it was pro- 
 posed to adjourn, as the day of judgment had surely come, and who then arose, 
 the advocate of a special faith in God, and said, "If the day of judo-ment is come, 
 let it find us at our posts, doing our duty, for we can not be better employed." 
 The sun was darkened, and "fear took hold upon the people, as of a woman in 
 travail." 
 
FORSOUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 51 
 
 But still later than this, have appeared "signs in the sun," premonitory of 
 the Savior's return. In the year 1816, they were visible to the naked eye for 
 many months, so history informs us at least; nor do we find any special record 
 •or explanation of those unseen hy the naked eye earlier than this in any scientific 
 ■works. The attempt at special, classification was made in our language in the 
 English translation of Guillemen's "Heavens," published in London, in 1866, 
 and on this, on Professors Airy's and Hind's "Astronomy" and "Solar System," 
 are our present text-books on the theory of "sun-spots based. Our American 
 astronomical works do not claim any thorough investigation of this phenomenon 
 till within forty-five years paat, nor at any date prior to 1816 do we find them 
 investigated or more than mentioned. These, Sir,, we also accept as another evi- 
 dence qfthe future coming and judgment, for they precede that in the order of 
 events in the Savior's prophecy. 
 
 There have been several important "signs in the heavens;" but I pass these 
 to consider the question involved in that part of the prophecy which teaches 
 that I'tbe stars of heaven shall fall." What does this signify ? Like the re- 
 maining part of the prijphecy, I regard this. Sir, as Kteral also; not literal in the 
 light of modern science, but literal in the light of usages of both the Savior's 
 time and our own. The falling of meteors was then called the falling of stars, 
 and by the common people is so called still. Yes, Sir, even our astronomical 
 works speak of "those evanescent meteors which dart across the sky at night in 
 all directions" as ^hooting stars, and the luminous shower of August, called by 
 the untutored Hibernian, "St. Lawrence's tears," is recognized as the "shower 
 of faUing stars." Surely then we may allow to Jesus the use of an expression 
 which, when made, conveyed, and still conveys a correct idea of the phenemenon 
 illustrated ,by the meteoric shower of 1833, which fell on the 12th of November, 
 which by multiplication of the actual number counted in a given time in Boston 
 alone, averaged thirty-nine thousand an hour, or an aggregate of nearly three 
 hundred thousand. The Latter Day Saints, Sir, will ever remen^ber that grand 
 display, for they were then encamped in the open air, driven from their homes 
 by an infuriated mob led by "religious" zealots. To them it was "a sign," to 
 me it is one still, one of the signs of the last days before the coming of Jesus to 
 that judgment and reign which our brother is vainly trying to prove is in the 
 past. Sir J. Herschel, Baron Humboldt, Professors Carrington, Philips,, Dawes, 
 Hind, Mayer, Thomson, and Tyndal have given evidence on this question in 
 their lectures and teachings of astronomy and meteorology, as also Helmholtz, the 
 able contributor to physical science who has written so ably on the theory of 
 solar heat, based on the Nebular hypothesis of Laplace, and among others, our 
 own Professor Olmstead, who, speaking of that time, says : The falling stars or 
 meteoric shower of 1833 was "such as to cover no inconsiderable portion of the 
 earth's surface" — these all. Sir, regard the phenomenon of 1833 as one of the 
 most interesting of all meteorological phenomena, and some of them regard it as 
 the grandest display of this nature ever witnessed. ' The only recorded meteroric 
 display approaching towards it is that described by Humboldt, as having taken 
 place thirty-four years previously. Kegard it, Sir, as you will; taken in connec- 
 tion with the signs in the sun in 1816, the darkening of the moon in 1848, and 
 of the sun in 1857, the unexplained comet of 1843, with^its two hundred mil- 
 lions miles of train, the position and movements among the nations, the preach- 
 ing of the primitive gospel, with all its ordinances, gifts and blessings by the 
 Latter Day Saints throughout the world, and the gathering of Israel to their 
 long forsaken home, to me it indicates the future coming, judgment and king- 
 dom of the Lord Jesus Christ. 
 
 To the call of the Moderator Elder Forscutt yielded the floor. 
 
52 FOR SCUT T AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 Elder Shinn's fifth argument. 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I appear before you a^aih this morning, to continue our friendly discussion. 
 I shall first hriefly review my brother's last speech. He feels a little disposed 
 to complain, because I appeal to Alexander Cabipbell and some others. I did 
 not" introduce these men, only for the purpose of showing their teaching Upbn the 
 point which I presented, and I am under no obligation to receive their testimony 
 upon anything else. I presume my brother is willing to endorse all that those 
 learned men have said, whom he , hafe introducted here to testify in relation to 
 particular points. If I find men, who bold, in most of points, views differing 
 froni mine, and who still agree with me upon one point, their vie* upon that 
 point is certainly of force, and is an evidence of candor and honesty Upon their 
 part. 
 
 "Christ's kingdom not tempora;!, but eternal." We pass that by for the 
 present. 
 
 "Does not have enough to do." My brother seems to feel that I 
 ought to branch out. Well now I do not think this is juSt the right *ay to 
 treat my arguments. Does not this congregation know full well, that yesterday 
 my brother acknowledged mankind were judged in this world, and in this life. 
 Have they forgotten the passages of Scripture that I read? That "I will judge 
 them in the land of their nativity, in the place where they were created?" That 
 the nation that they should serve, "afterwards will I judge that nation." He 
 admits that this judgment is in this life. I noted the passage of Scripture, that 
 under the Mosaic law, "every transgression and disobedience received, [past 
 tense], a just recompense of reward." Having admitted that men were all 
 judged in this life, he afterward declared that he did not believe in a re-judg- 
 ment, which we called attention to in this^iscussion. Now, you can not judge 
 them again. Concerning the coming of Christ to judge mankind, his coming 
 in glory, in the clouds, I proved that it was to take place during the natural life- 
 time of some of those who heard Jesus speak. I told him my position was, that 
 if he could not prove that some were living now, who were living then, he must 
 utterly fail in this discussion. Has he answered these arguments? I have pro- 
 secuted this discussion calmly, and have introduced these arguments calmly and 
 deliberately, and have given him an opportunity to answer them. Rev. 20 :4r-6. 
 I wish to say, that I believe man is a free moral agent now, and will be forever. 
 I believe that Grod works in harmony with men's will, to accomplish his salver 
 vation. I believe that salvation will forever be wrought out in harmony with 
 men's free moral agency. 
 
 My brother, upon the subject of the literal resurrection of the dead, you 
 will never be able to prove that the Bible teaches any such a doctrine. There 
 is too much concurrent testimony against the idea. A literal resurrection, you 
 will never be able to prove, in this discussion. But that matter will be canvassed 
 in due time. 
 
 "Date of the Apocalypse." I have something to say in regard to that. 
 He seems to be of the impression, that it was written in the year 96 : 
 
 ""We feel a much stronger confidence in the internal evidences which the Apocalypse 
 furnishes of its date, than we do in the historical testimony. It is for this reason, we think, 
 that the number of tliose who ieiieve that the Apocatypse was wriiien before the destructim, of Jem- 
 sidem is steadily increasing, among men of sound learning. Professor 8tuart has added the 
 weight of his great learning and influence, to the support of that opinion." — Whittemore'a In- 
 troduction, page 38. 
 
 "In respect to the historical testimony, the first thing that strikes the mind of the inquirer 
 is, that it is contradictory. Irenasua, wlio is the most ancient authority we have upon the sub- 
 ject, seemed to think that the Apocalypse made its appearance about the end ot Domitian's 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 53 
 
 reign, s^ A. D. 95. Epiphauiua said repeatedly, that John wrote the revelation during the 
 time of Claudius, the predecessor of Nero; and if this be true, it must have been vcritten be- 
 fore A. D. 54. Tertiilian, and, after him, Jerome, are supposed to have taught, that John 
 was banished to Patmos during the reign of Nero; and in the Syriac version of the Apoca- 
 lypse, the title page explicitly declares that it w^aa written in Patmos, whither John was sent 
 by Nero Cewsar. If tlie Apocalypse was written during the reign of Nero, it was but a few 
 years before the Jewish war; apd if would render very natural the language of that book in 
 respect to the immediateness of the threatened judgment. Among other writers who have 
 supposed the book to have been written before the destruction of Jerusalem, may be men- 
 tioned Sij; Is^ac Newton, in his 'Observations on the prophecies and the Apocalypse of St. 
 John,' London, IISS; Dr. Hammond, in his Commentary; the learned Lightfoot's works, 
 (edited by J. R. Pitman, London, 1825), vol. 3, pp. 331-371, and various other places. Bish- 
 op Thomas Newton, in his Dissertations on the prophecies, London, 1832, pp. 444, 441, and 
 to these we may add, we are told, the authority of Grotius, Wetstein, Bishrom, and many oth- 
 er learned men. The opinion is now becoming more and more general, that the Apocalypse 
 was written previously to the destruction of Jerusalem. Dr. Adam Clark, in closing his notes 
 on the Apocalypse, says, 'I think the book was written before the destruction of Jerusalem, 
 and not in the year 95 or 96.'" — 'Whittemore's Introduction, page 39. 
 
 "Irenaeua, it will be remembered, did not live until about a century after St. John. The 
 language of that father does not seem to be intended to deflae,iAe time when the Apocalypse 
 was written, so much as the %me of its first appearance, so far as he knew. The words are 
 these : 'The Apocalypse was seen not loug ago, but almost in our generation, near the end of 
 Domitian's reign.' Supposing Irenasus here to have intended that the Apocalypse, so far as 
 he knew, did not appear until near the end of Domitian's reign, would this prove, that it was 
 not written until that time ? or that none others had seen it until then? We think not. The 
 passage from Irenasus is evidently ambiguous; some authors take one view of it, and some 
 another." — Whittemore's Introduction, page 40. 
 
 Internal evidences of the book : 
 
 "The single question which we shall seek to settle now is, Was the Apocalypse written 
 before the destruction of Jerusalem ? Let it be observed that it was addressed to the seven 
 churches in Asia. We are not sure that these only were addressed. They may have been 
 used symbolically, for the churches at large ; seven being separated as a sample of the whole, 
 for the same reason that John speaks of the seven spirits, the seiven lamps of fire, seven seals, 
 Mven angels, sevm trumpets, seven thunders, etc. But the special point to be observed under 
 this head of our subject is, that the style of address to the churches of Asia, does not differ 
 greatly from that of the epistles of Paul and Peter. The revelator urges the church at Ephe- 
 aus, to labor to overcome their enemies, to sustain themselves well in the midst of persecutions. 
 And Paul surely urges the same thing in substance, on the same churches. He exhorted 
 them to be 'strong in the Lord, and the power of his might;' to put on the whole armor of God, 
 etc. Precisely the same state of the church is described in the second epistle of Peter, with 
 that described in the Apocalypse. It is such, it would almost seem, that these two books 
 were written about the same time; and the same remarks may be made to the brief epistle of 
 Jude." — Introduction to Apocalypse, by Thomas Whittemore, pages, 41-43. 
 
 Other evidences I have to introduce, but do not care to introduce them 
 now ; but will do so hereafter, if it is necessary. 
 
 "Kingdom of G-od in the heart." This, my brother, is the spiritual reign 
 of Christ in the heart's of men. 
 
 He says, "Any kingdom must have laws, subjects, territory," etc. Yes, so 
 we say of a literal kingdoni ; but of the spiritual kingdom here, we say it may be 
 in the hearts of men; a spiritual reign of Christ within them. Again we say it 
 is in the hearts of men, because "the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, 
 but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Can we not have 
 righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit within the heart? This is 
 tie spiritual reign of Jesus in the hearts of men, not a literal reign, as I have 
 shown by the authority quoted from Komans 14 : 17. As defined by my broth- 
 er a word is to be takenin its most primary, natural sense. Precisely then, as 
 I quoted in Corinthians 15 : 24. 
 
 Here is a little matter that troubles my brother. Precisely where he thinks 
 Christ commences to reign, and judgment takes place; yes, Sir, right at that time 
 Christ delivers up the kingdom to God, even the Father, and not a single syl- 
 
54 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 lable is said about judgment at that time. My brother tries to make it appear, 
 that after his coming he is to reiga with his people on the earth, and be their 
 King. I repeat that the reign of judgment commenced with the reign of Christ, 
 and will cease when that reign ceases, and he "delivers up the kingdom to G-od, 
 even the Father, that he may be all in all;" precisely where my brother says 
 his reign of judgment commences. Let us read this passage again: 
 "For as iu Adam all die, even so in' Christ shall all be made alive." 
 Call it whatever you will, my brother, there are but two orders in the resur- 
 rection. 
 
 "But every man in his own order : Christ the first fruits ; afterward they that are Christ's- 
 at his coming. Then oometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, 
 even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power. For 
 he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be de- 
 stroyed is death." 
 
 Here is the end of Christ's reign as Judge, instead of the beginning of his- 
 reign as Judge. There is quite a difference between me and my brother in re- 
 gard to this matter. 
 
 "Argument from Matthew 24 : 27." "If the Roman army came from the 
 east," etc. That this indicates his judgment, and that his coming to reign over 
 mankind is a figurative coming, is all I claim. 
 
 "Dark Days. May 19th, 1180, is known in the history of New England as the Dark Day. 
 Between the hours of 10 and 11 a.m. the sky became obscured with dense clouds of a smoky 
 hue that drifted from the southwest. The fowls went to roost, the birds sang their evening songs 
 and settled themselves to sleep in their hidden retreats, candles were lighted in all the houses, 
 while a silence and dimness as of night rested upon the face of all nature. A similar darkness 
 was experienced October 21st, 1116, 0. S. On this occasion, the day was so dark that people- 
 were forced to light candles to eat tlieir dinners by. This could not be from any eclipse, the- 
 solar eclipse being the fourth of that month. On October 19th, 1762, a remarkable dark day 
 was observed at Detroit. An officer stationed there described the day in a letter to a friend, 
 in these words: 'The 19th of this month was the most extraordinary dark day, perhaps, ever 
 seen in the world.' The cause of the unnatural darkness prevailing on these several days was 
 probably the extensive burning of western prairies and woodlands." — The Olio, H. S. Living- 
 stone, Publisher, Galesburg, Illinois. 
 
 This is all, I'believe, of my brother's speech. I now reach my sixth argu" 
 ment. 
 
 His coming was at a time of great trouble. Matthew 24 : 16 : 
 
 "Then let them which be in Judea, flee into the mountains." 
 
 Dan. 12: 1. — "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth' 
 for the children of thy people : and there shall be a time of great trouble, such as never was 
 since there was a nation, even to that same time : and at that time tliy people shall be de- 
 livered, every one that shall be found written in the book." 
 
 For a parallel we cite you to Matthew 24 : 17-22 : 
 
 "Let him which is on the housetop, not come down to take anything out of his house : 
 neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that 
 are with child, and to them that give suck in those days: but pray ye that your flight be not 
 in the winter; neither on the Sabbath day; for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not 
 from the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days- 
 should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall 
 be shortened." 
 
 Joel 2: 1, 2. — "Blow ye the trumpet iu Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain:, 
 let all the inhabitants of the land tremble : for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nioh at 
 hand." 
 
 Does that mean two, three, or ten thousand years in the future? 
 "A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morn- 
 ing spread upon the mountains; a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the; 
 like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations." 
 
 Ezekiel 5 ; 9, 10, in this connection: 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 55 
 
 "And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any 
 more the like, becauae of all thine abominations. Therefore the others shall eat the sons in 
 the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, 
 and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds." 
 
 Matthew 24, in this connection, 27th verse. Now mark it : 
 " For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall 
 also the coming of the Son of man be." 
 
 The brother has either misunderstood Father Campbell, or he does not wish 
 to understand him. I will read, showing that he places this coming here spoken 
 of, as having been fulfilled, and his authority is worth something as an able and 
 learned man. He is not the only one who is upon the part of the position we 
 take; we can bring many more. 
 
 "Some of them not only saw the Son of man enter upon his reign, and the kingdom of 
 God commence on Pentecost, and carry his conquests over Judea, Samaria and the uttermost 
 parts of the earth ; but they saw the Lord 'come with power' and awful glory, and accom- 
 plish all his predictions on the deserted and devoted temple, city, and people." — Christian 
 System, by A. Campbell, page 119. 
 
 Therefore it is in liarmony with the teachings of this eminent man, as well 
 as many others that we have here ready to bring forward, if it is necessary, that 
 the kingdom was gradual in being established, in being set up. Dr. Adam Clark 
 is in harmony with this. So is Dr. Lightfoot, and many other learned orthodox 
 critics, those who believed in the doctrine of future endless punishment, those 
 who believed in a day of future judgment, these did not believe that the coming 
 indicated here, was any other than a spiritual coming; a coming in power and 
 glory, as I have shown. 
 
 I do not know but it would be as well to give some other testimony here, 
 in regard to this matter. My brother speaks something about the stars falling: 
 from heaven. I want to give Dr. Adam Clark's view upon that subject. We 
 have it here some place — I guess I have lost it for the present — I thought I had 
 it in this book — I will find it somewhere else. 
 
 "Verse 27, of Matthew 16.— "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, 
 with his angels, and then lie shall reward every man according to his works." 
 
 Verse 28. — "Verily 1 say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of 
 death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." 
 
 I will read a parallel upon this, and call my brother's special attention to 
 the argument made upon it. Dr. Adam Clark says : 
 
 "This seems to refer to Daniel 7; 1.3, 14, 'Behold one like the Son of man came, to tlio 
 Ancient of Days, and tliere was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peo- 
 ple, and nations, and languages, should serve him.' This was the glorious mediatorial king- 
 dom which Jesus was about to set up, by the destruction of the Jewish nation and polity, 
 and the diffusion of liis gospel through the whole world. If tho words be taken in this sense, 
 the angels or messengers may signify the apostles and successors in the sacred ministry, preach- 
 ing the gospel in tlie power of the Holy Ghost. Verse 28.— This verse seems to confirm the 
 above explanation, as our Lord evidently speaks of the establishment of the Christian Church, 
 after the day of Pentecost, and its final triumph, after the destruction of the Jewish polity; as 
 if he said, 'Some of you, my disciples, shall continue to live till these things take place.' " — 
 Adam Clark, (Methodist), D.D. 
 
 Page's Selection of Eminent Commentators. 
 
 Dr. Hammond also agrees with Dr. Clark. 
 
 John 21 : 33. — "Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple 
 should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, if I will that he tarry till 
 I come, what is that to thee?" 
 
 "Matthew 24: 32-34.— "Now learn a parable of tho fig-tree; when his branch is yet ten- 
 der, and pulteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigti: so likewise ye, when ye shall 
 see all the.se things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, this gen- 
 eration shall not pass, till all these tilings be fulfilled.'' 
 
^56 FOBSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 Now, I call Bjiy biother's attention to another criticism here. All this 
 falling of stars from heaven, and the darkening of the sun, before the coming of 
 Christ in clouds, his coming in glory, his coming to reward mankind, to judge 
 mankind, was to be fulfilled, during the time of that generation. But I have an 
 argument to bring forward in regard to that matter presently. I am now ready 
 to present my seventh affirmative argument. 
 
 The coming of Christ was near at hand, over eighteen hundred years ago, 
 as shown by the following unmistakable language and phraseologies : 
 
 Rev. 22: 12.— "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every 
 ■man according aa his work shall b»." 
 
 "Mat. 16: 21, 28.— "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his 
 -angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, 
 there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man com- 
 ing in his kingdom." 
 
 Rev. 1 : 3.— "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, 
 and keep those things which are written therein.: for the time ia at hand." 
 
 Here the revelator testifies, and this is another of the internal evidences of 
 the book, showing it was written before the destruction of Jerusalem, that this 
 coming was ''ai hand." 
 
 Rev. 1:1. — "Behold, he cometh with clouda; and every eye shall see him, and they also 
 which pierced him ; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of liim. Even so. Amen." 
 
 Here the revelator speaks of the same coming spoken of in Matthew 16 : 
 27, 28. Matthew testifies that it shall take place during the natural lifetime of 
 those who heard him speak. My brother may be able to dispose of these strong 
 arguments, but I predict now that he will never be able to do it. 
 
 Time was called. 
 
 Elder Forscutt's reply to Elder Shinn's fifth argument. 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I have listened this morning to a recapitulation of a part of the evidences 
 of yesterday, and have heard, I suppose, some of the new and promised evidences 
 which my "brother" threatened me with yesterday, several timss, and which he 
 thought would certainly overwhelm me. I do not know what condition I may 
 seem to be in; but I am pleased to say that I feel just as tall now as I did 
 before these overwhelming evidences came. 
 
 It does not seem to me that there has been one particle of evidence present- 
 ed, this morning, in support of the proposition. I will call the attention of the 
 audience to the proposition, and let them judge : "The Bihle teaches that the 
 coming of Christ to judge the world, is now past." 
 
 In the review of the arguments of yesterday, our friend has introduced to 
 us again this thought; that Christ's coming in the clouds of heaven, was to be 
 during the lifetime of some of those then living. This thought is based upon 
 the declaration which is given to u.9 as having been uttered by the Savior, 
 (which declaration I too believe to have been uttered by him), "Verily I say un- 
 to you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death, till they see 
 the Son of man coming in his kingdom." This is the language, and it is sug- 
 gestive of two or three ideas other than that which the brother has presented. 
 There is such a power within the possession of Deity as that which can cause life 
 to be prolonged. The brother quoted for us the testimony concerning John, the 
 Kevelator, and the apostles understood, — whether they were less wise than my 
 brother or not, I am not prepared to say, — but they certainly understood that 
 the promise was made by Jesus, that John should not taste of death. It seems 
 that they had been questioning Jesus concerning John, to which he made this 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 57 
 
 significant reply, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee,'' And, 
 Sir, you will not be able to establish that they were in error in believing that 
 John's life would be prolonged; unless you can show from history an authenti- 
 cated account of his death. But supposing that writers testify that he did die, 
 that they even give an account of his death as having takien place a short time 
 after he wrote the Apocalypse, I shall then wish to know wTio these writers are, 
 and whether they were witnesses of his death, or whether they simply record 
 traditions and impressions concerning him, ox facts, "stuhborn facts." No such 
 witnesses as are reliable witnesses on this case have yet been produced. It will 
 not do to produce, as witnesses of his death, those who themselves did not live 
 till from one hundred to seventeen hundred years after the death they record 
 took place. Such witnesses would not be accepted in any court, nor could their 
 I testimony have weight with any jurors in the most trivial case; they can have 
 no weight here. Sir, against the testimony of Jesus, aijd the faith of bis apostles. 
 
 I apprehend you will not find any reliable historical account of the death 
 of John, the apostle ; if there is such an account, it being an authoritative one, 
 then I should ask thosq,who wrote that account, if they were here, to explain to 
 me why Jesus was sent to teach all truth, and did not correct the mistake of 
 the apostles, when they had received the idea that John was to remain. In- 
 stead of correcting it, he makes it more positive by saying, "If I will that he 
 tarry till I come, what is that to thee." 
 
 The gentleman may say, that it is very strange a man should live so long a 
 time; but the same God that raised up Jesus from the dead; that gave the 
 power and life by which he still lives, and by which he will live forever; the 
 same God who has made the promise, as the apostle tells us, that when Jesus 
 comes he will translate those who shall then be living, and that they shall be for- 
 ever with the Lord; — that same God could immortalize, or so change the body 
 of John, as would confer on him such power of continuity of life as that he could 
 remain according to the statement of Jesus, "If I will that he tarry till I come, 
 what is that to thee." I submit that point. 
 
 The brother says I "shall never be able to prove a second resurrection of 
 the dead." Had he made this statement early on yesterday, I might have had 
 sejious fears; but as in every speech since then, and upon every point presented, 
 almost, he has threatened me with that which would so seriously overwhelm me, 
 I have become used to it; and this has so much of the same spirit in it, that 
 really I begin to cease to have any fears; I am really losing all my apprehen- 
 sion concerning trouble. Whether I am to make this failure or not, will be seen 
 when we come to debate on that proposition. I am not accustomed to make 
 threats beforehand; ]put to work when the time for work comes. 
 
 The brother asks the question, "Was the fact that the Apocalypse was seen 
 at the close of the reign of Domitian any evidence that the book was not written 
 before that time ?" In answer to this, I propound another question, Is the fact 
 of its having been seen at the close of Domitian's reign, any evidence that it had 
 not thtfn been recently written? One question is just as worthy of consideration 
 as the other; no force in either worth the naming. 
 
 The "Kingdom of God is righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy 
 Ghost." It is true in the sense in which the apostle uses the language. These 
 are the fruits of the kingdom of God; but the apostle did not say the kingdom 
 of God was in the heart; he had too much sound sense, and was too good a 
 logician for that. The kingdom is an organization, the fruits of which are 
 "righteousness, and peace, and joy, in the Holy Ghost," and these fruits ought 
 to be in the human heart. If our hearts contain the kingdom, instead of the 
 kingdom containing us, we never shall, never can enter into that kingdom, neith- 
 
58 FOR SCUT T AND SfflNN'S 'BISCUSSIOJV. 
 
 er in a literal nor in a spiritual sense. Jesus reigns in the hearts of those who 
 do his will, % the power of his love, but that 'is not his kingdom. He has 
 promised that those who do his will a;nd triuiliph over every opposing power and 
 influence, shall dwell with him in his kingdom ; not his kingdom in them. 
 
 The brother ' tells you again, calling your attention to the twenty-fourth 
 chapter of Matthew, that I 'still certify that the reign of Christ is to begin ex- 
 actly where it is to end. I do not know on what hypothesis he founds this ar- 
 gument, unless it be in the testimony culminating in the word end. Here, I 
 judge, the position is taken on account of his translation of the Greek word 
 aionos, which he renders age; "sunteleias tou aionos, end of the age. Whether 
 it be the end of that age, or the end of the world, does not materially affect the 
 question at issue just now. 
 
 That the reign of Christ was to end at the time when I think it is to com- ' 
 mence, I have yet to heai*the evidences of. On the contrary side, the Scrip- 
 tures abound with testimony, and if I were on the affirmative side bf this ques- 
 tion, I should present that testimony to prove the affirmative of that view, which 
 I can now, as negativing an opposite view of Elder Shinn, only advance as coun- 
 ter evidence. It is not my right to present that testimony now. True, I might 
 jump out of the traces, and attempt to lead Elder Shinn; but it is not my privi- 
 lege so to do ; I can but rebut his testimony, and attempt to prove the opposite 
 of the position tiken by him. Were I on the affirmative, I repeat, I would 
 bring forward such an array of testimony, that I believe, if your hearts are hon- 
 est, and you desire truth, you would at once be able to see that the coming of 
 Christ to reign, and to judgment, will be when we suppose; it has not yet been. 
 Of this vast amount of evidence in the Scriptures, to prove this position to be 
 true, I submit: 
 
 That the Saints were to rest with Christ and the apostles, until the coming 
 of Christ in power and great glory. 
 
 That Christ was to be revealed in the future. 
 
 That there was to be a. future day, in the which God would judge the world, 
 according to the gospel. 
 
 That time was not when the apostle wrote; it was in the future. The apos- 
 tle, in writing to the Thessalonians, places the coming of Christ in the future. 
 
 2 Thess. 2:2,3, 4. — "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by 
 spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, aa that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man 
 deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, 
 and that man of sin be revealed, the Son of Perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself 
 above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of 
 God, showing himself that he is God." 
 
 I would like to know the name of the man who did this before the destruc- 
 tion of Jerusalem. I would like to learn it either from history or the Bible. 
 
 I think the brother is laboring under a mistake, by not noticing the condi- 
 tions under which the testimony contained in Matthew 24, was given to the dis- 
 ciples. The apostles presented to him a three-fold question, instead of a question 
 that was a unit. If you will turn to the previous chapter, you will learn what 
 "these things" are, about which Jesus was interrogated by his disciples. 
 
 Matt. 23 : 34-39. — "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and 
 scribes ; and some of them ye shall kill and crucify, and some of them shall yc scourge in your 
 synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteoiis 
 blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel, unto the blood of Zachariaa son 
 of Baraohias, whom ye slew between the temple arid the altar. Verily, I say unto you All 
 these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, theu that killest the 
 prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy 
 children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 59 
 
 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Te shall not see me hence- 
 forth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." 
 
 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." You will remember that a 
 good deal of the argument in this debate on "Brother" Shinn's side, has been 
 about the present tense. I do not know what he will do with the tense here, 
 "is left unto you desolate," and this, too, a number of years before Jerusalem 
 was destroyed. 
 
 Jesus said, "For I say unto you, ye shall not see me henceforth, until ye 
 shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." The disciples 
 wondering when these things were to transpire, came to Jesus to show him the 
 buildings of the magnificent temple, when Jesus replied, "See ye not all these 
 things ? Verily, I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon an- 
 other, that shall not be thrown down." Then the disciples came unto him and 
 said, "Tell us when shall these things be?" This was the part of the three-fold 
 question that referred to the things that had been before told; things concern- 
 ing the destruction of Jerusalem. Second question, " What will be the sign of 
 thy coming?" Third q^uestion, eliptical, "And of the end of the world?" Here 
 we now have before us this three-fold question, referring to three different facts, 
 three different periods of time. First, the destruction of Jerusalem, or the ac- 
 complishing of all those things which were before told them ; second, the reign 
 of the coming of Jesus Christ;, third, the end of the world. 
 
 Jesus then commenced to explain to them, as was common among the Jews, 
 giving to them the testimony in its entirety, and answering as though it were 
 but one question, instead of three different ones. But as the question is three- 
 fold, so is the answer ; and the question to be determined is, which part of the 
 prophecy was to be fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem ; which part at the 
 coming of Christ, and which part at the end of the world, the general judgment 
 approaching. In defining the matter, we notice that Jesus names an irregular 
 series of events which were to take place. The brother has referred us already 
 to many of them, and told us what was seen in the heavens before the destruc- 
 tion of Jerusalem, but there are many others spoken of as preceding the coming 
 of Jesus Christ, which have not received their fulfillment. 
 
 Firstly; I call your attention to the fact that it is said, "There shall arise 
 false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders." What 
 were the great signs and wonders which they showed, prior to the destruction 
 of Jerusalem ? Where is the history that relates to us the peculiar signs and 
 wonders shown by the false Christs and false prophets, to lead the people astray, 
 before the destruction of Jerusalem. 
 
 Secondly, Jesus says : 
 
 "Then, if any man shall say unto you, Lo here is Christ, or there; believe it not. * * * 
 Behold I have told you before. Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the 
 desert; go not forth. Behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. * * * Immediately 
 after the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give 
 her light, and the stars sliall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 
 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven : and then shall all the tribes of the 
 earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power 
 and great glory."— Matt. 24: 23-30. 
 
 The brother talks a great deal about certain terms in which is used the 
 present tense. The Scriptures furnish a great many terms used in the present 
 tense, which describe events which did not have their fulfillment for long peri- 
 ods of time. I do not know whether this is one of them or not; I am not pre- 
 pared to say. I dare not be so positive upon that point as my brother is. If 
 the Scriptures warrant me in being positive, I will be so ; if they do not, I dare 
 not be. 
 
60 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'.S DISCUSSION. 
 
 But there is certfi^nly something very strange, sind to me almost ridiculows,, 
 (my brother will notice the phrase, I am not calling him ridiculous), something 
 strange and almost ridiculous in the idea that the destruction of Jerusalem, was 
 the coming of the Son of man, in power and great glory. It is still more strange,, 
 still more ridiculous, to say that the coming of Christ at the destruction of Jeru- 
 salem, was the fulfillment of the prophecy, that he should come in the clouds 
 of heaven with power and great glory. 
 
 As to the quotation from Mr. Campbell, I have only this to say; Mr. Campbell 
 did not do aught else of interest in this quotation than reason on what was written, 
 and his statements are therefore his opinions only; we ought to receive them as 
 you will receive Mr. Shinn's opinions 3,nd my own, and sulgect them to the same 
 crucial tests, the word of God and the light thrown thereon by the revealments of 
 history. Mr. Campbell's opinions are of no more value in this discussion tha,n are 
 the opinions of Whittemore, the "learned gentleman" whose arguments friend 
 Shinn has borrowed so extensively in this debate, and . to whom he has sought 
 to refer you so often as to one so well qualified to determine points at issue, with- 
 out telling you from whom he quoted, or that his author, Mr. Whittemore, is one 
 of the stars of Universalism. Mr. Campbell may confirm Elder Shinn in his 
 views ; but simply because Mr. Campbell said this or that, his saying so does not 
 prove it to be truth. Ten thousand Campbell's "say so" is of no value as testi- 
 mony in this debate; but the Bible and the Bible only. Learned men [^have 
 their opinions, difi"ering from one another; each one holding his views, and 
 some times opposite and very distinct opinions from some other, or from all other 
 learned men. 
 
 The Savior promised to his followers an influence that should guide them, a 
 reliable guide, into all truth, and make them one. "If I go not away, the Com- 
 forter will not come." He told them he would send the Comforter ; that he 
 would leave, but the Comforter would come. He also commanded them to tarry 
 at Jerusalem, until they were endowed with power from on high- They did 
 tarry, in obedience to this command, until this power came from on high. Was 
 that the coming of Jesus ? When the apostles were assembled, on the day of 
 Pentecost, "There came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind." 
 Was Jesus to come personally and in glory; or as with the sound of a mighty 
 rushing wind ? I repeat it, "As of a rushing mighty wind." 
 
 Jesus had promised to send the Holy Ghost, and had given this as the con- 
 dition of the fulfillment of that promise, that if he went not away from them, the 
 Comforter would not come. This Comforter was to be with the church, if they 
 were faithful; to remain with the church; to comfort the church, and to teach 
 the church until Jesus should return in power and glory, in fulfillnient of the 
 prophecy contained in the first chapter of Acts, where his return is spoken of as 
 being on the same principle as his departure. 
 
 He said to his disciples : 
 
 '(But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall 
 be witiiesses unto me, both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the ut- 
 termost parts of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, HE 
 was taken up, and a doud received HIM out of their sight." — Acts 1:1, 8, 9. 
 
 What was this that was taken up ? Was it the power and influence ? 
 
 Or was it the person ? 
 
 Let us read further, and see again what the record says about him. When 
 he appeared unto the disciples, one of them could not believe it was he. Others 
 thought it was Christ, but this one could not believe until he felt the side where 
 the spear had pierced, a,nd put his hands in the prints of the nails, and after he 
 had done these things he exclamied, "My Lord and my God." See John 20 : 
 24-29. 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 61 
 
 To oiliers who seemed to think he was not a person, but a spirit, he made 
 this significant remark : 
 
 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath 
 not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." 
 
 Who was that Jesus? What was this said of him? "Thou shalt * * * 
 bring forth a son, and shalt call his ndme JESUS." — Luke 1 :31; also 35th 
 verse, "The Holy Ghost shall come Upon thee, and the power of the Highest 
 shall overshadow theej therefore also that Jioli/ thirty viJlichrshaU he horri of thee, 
 shall be Called the Son of God." This was the word of the angel to his mother. 
 That same "holt/ thing," "his name Jesus," was crucified ; and after the cruci- 
 fixion and resurrection, that same Jesus appeared unto the apostles; that same 
 Jesus was with them forty days; that same Jesus was taken up into heaven^ and 
 the disciples ga,zed after him; for though he had told them he should leave them 
 they were loth to part with him. But we read further: 
 
 "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood 
 by them in white apparel; which also said, te men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into 
 heaven? THIS SAME Ji^US, Which is talsen up from you into heaven, shall so come in like 
 MANHER as ye have Seen him go into heaven." — Acts 1:10-12. 
 
 Just as he went away, just so was he to return. 
 
 How did he go ? 
 
 "A cloud received him out of iheir sight." 
 
 How shall he return? 
 
 In the clouds. 
 
 How did he go? 
 
 With his body. 
 
 How shall he return? 
 
 With his body. 
 
 We read in Zechariah 13 : 6, that after his return with his body, the Jews 
 shall look upon him, "And shall say unto him. What are those wounds in thy 
 hands ? Then he shall answer. Those with which I was wounded in the house 
 of my friends." This same body that Jesus had before, he is to come with ; the 
 same wounds, the same prints of the nails are to be there, and are to be seen — 
 the same Jesus, the "holy thing," the body born of Mary. He is to come too 
 with the holy angels; and we read in the testimony of Jude, that he is to come 
 "with ten thousand of his Saints; he will come in power and glory; he will 
 come to take vengeance on his enemies, and to reign over his kingdom in the 
 midst of his people. 
 
 The brother refers to my remarks yesterday, in regard to the dark day, and 
 intimates that my argument amounted to nothing, from the fact that there had 
 been other dark days ; and he names three dark days from some work, and read 
 us the report of that. I am surprised that the gentleman did not notice the 
 testimony, as shown in the statement about these dark days, to which I referred. 
 It speaks of their having transpired, and the conclusions drawn from them by 
 the writer. In the account read by the brother, we are told at its close, after 
 reading about all these dark days, that perhaps it was occasioned ly the hurning 
 of the western prairies. Wonderful darkness! This first day I referred to yes- 
 terday, is described by a writer who witnessed it, as being a time of such intense 
 darkness "that a sheet of white paper held before the eye, was indistinguishable 
 from the blackest velvet." It is true, as Brother Shinn reasons, that with the 
 increase of knowledge many things once considered miraculous are now anticipa- 
 ted, and with an accuracy greater even than he has intimated, eclipses are foretold 
 years beforehand almost to within a second of their occurrence. It is a blessing 
 to our age that intelligence has spread so wide, and that truth is assuming by 
 
62 F0R8GUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 right the vantage ground of speculation; but in the enjoyment pf our increased 
 privileges, let us not forget that He who guides Nature , by his immutable laws, 
 also guided his Son, his prophets, and his servants to foretell hundreds of years 
 in advance of science, the events of our times. Skepticism may delight in natur- 
 al law and human discovery thereof, and become self-consequential ; but faith 
 delights equally as much in the discovery, and the more satifactorily, because 
 she sees fresh cause of gratitude to the author of all truth, and looks from Na- 
 ture up to Nature's^ Qod. It is much better to acknowledge G-od thereiti than 
 to say, "It was, perhaps, caused by the burning of the western prairies," as 
 Brother Shihn has done. 
 
 We are now referred to Daniel, twelfth chapter, and first verse. We are 
 told in the beginning the testimony of this verse : 
 
 "That at that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince which standeth /or fhejihUdren 
 of thy people." 
 
 Does the gentleman suppose that this was fulfilled at the coming of Ves- 
 pasian and Titus to destroy Jerusalem ? At the time when the Roman army 
 came against the children of Daniel's people ? Is that standing for them ? At 
 which part of this eventful time Michael stood up for them, the gentleman did 
 not define. I should also like to know at which of these times referred to by 
 Daniel in this verse, the gentleman places the coming referred to. He referred 
 to it in his argument, as though it was fulfilled at the coming of the Roman 
 army. If it was, there is something very strange in the testimony. 
 
 From the prophet we learn that this is to be an event to transpire at what 
 he calls, and what I call, the "time of the end.'' 
 
 "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of 
 thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation 
 even to that same time : and oi that time (hy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be 
 written in the book. And maay of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." 
 
 We might venture into the examination of the previous chapter, because it 
 should be connected with this; but we have not time. 
 
 Taking this in connection with the testimony given to us, (and which we 
 have before referred to), in the second chapter of Joel, first to twelfth verses, 
 we will be better able to understand its bearings. 
 
 "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the in- 
 habitants of the land tremble : for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand. , A day 
 of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, ss the morning spread up- 
 on the mountains; a great people and a strong; there hath not Ijeen even the like, neither 
 shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations." 
 
 Now if you will come with me to the first chapter of Joel, perhaps we may 
 come to a better understanding of this matter,^commencing at verse one. 
 
 "The word of the Lord that came to Joel, the son of Pethuel. Hear this, ye old men, 
 and give ear all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days 
 of your fathers? Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their 
 children another generation. That which the palmer- worm hath left hath the locust eaten; 
 and that which the locust hath left hath the caukerworm eaten ; and that which the canker- 
 worm hath left hath the caterpillar eaten." 
 
 In this comes to us the testimony, that Jerusalem and Judea were first to 
 suffer before the events spoken of in the second chapter should take place, and 
 in the far distant future only could that then have been. 
 
 Joel was one of the prophets of God to Judah ; there is no question about 
 that. 
 
 We find in referring to this chapter, further, that it gives an historical ac- 
 count of the events that shall transpire ; and from the very nature of them w« 
 conclude that they are not to take place until the time when Israel shall be restored 
 
FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 63 
 
 to their own land. This is evident fnom; the twenty-lfth verse of the second 
 chapter, "And I will restore tp you the years that the locust hath eaten, the 
 cankerworm and the caterpillar, and the palmer-worm, my great army which I 
 sent among you," followed by the twenty-sixth verse which closes with the 
 declaration, "And my people shall never be ashamed. 
 "Time," called the speaker to a close. 
 
 Elder Shinn's sixth argument. 
 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 According to the custom which I have adopted throughout this discussion, 
 I shall notice my brother's arguments, before proceeding with my affirmative 
 argument. I would first notice Matthew 16 : 27, 28. The brother has referred 
 to this argument at last, and you will notice the manner in which he attempts 
 to avoid the force qf that argument, is to throw upon me ths burden of proving, 
 from some reliable historian, that the disciple John ever did die. Why, my 
 brother, are not you aware that can be done. I presume Dr. Fleetwood would 
 be considered reliable in this matter. , Now this is the only fprce, as sure as you 
 are living, it is, the only way he can do anything against my strong argument in 
 regard to Ohrist's coming taking place ^Jjring the natural lifetime of those who 
 heard him, is to challenge us here, to bring forward from reliable^historians, that 
 John the revelator did die. 
 
 "St. John died, and was buried near.Bphesus, in the beginning of Trajan's' reign, in the 
 ninety-eighth year of his age." — Life of Christ, by John Fleetwood, D.D., page 667. 
 
 The very thing the brother said we could not do. I call your attention 
 again to that passage of Scripture': 
 
 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels, and then he 
 shall reward every man acoording to hia works. Verily I say unto you, There be some stand- 
 ing hsre, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in hia kingdom." 
 
 Now, then, he was to come in that kingdom, and reward mankind accord- 
 ing to their works. A positive declaration that he is to come during the natural 
 lifetime of those who heard him. We have proved that coming to have been 
 quickly ; not eight or ten thousand years to come, and for the brother to attempt 
 to get rid of this, by claiming that John is still living, looks very much like 
 straining a point. Now, the brother must support the idea, by proving to this 
 intelligent congregation that John is still living. His success or failure depends 
 upon his proving that the disciple, John, is still living in the body. Matthew 
 twenty-fourth chapter; he reads two or three verses here, and speaks about the 
 signs that were to precede the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have some' 
 thing short to quote in regard to that. I hold in my hand a work, written by a 
 noted and scholarly Methodist Presiding Elder, Brother Goodwin. My brother 
 seems to look over the fact, from what he has said, that he being of a different 
 view from me, his evidence, which is given in favor of the position which I oc- 
 cupy, is doubly strong, and candor aild honesty require that I should receive it, 
 and I assure you, that my view must be sustained by these principles. 
 
 "There are three questipna in one, yet but one question. Those who have a theory to 
 maintain, assume that in the minds of the disciples, the coming of Christ, and the end of the 
 world, were to be synchronous, and the- destruction of the temple another event; hence they 
 orbUrarUy, divide the triple question into two, whereas it is certain, that all were associated 
 together as composing one grand ircmsaction." — Mode of Man's Immortality, by T. A. Goodwin, 
 A.M., page 127. 
 
 This is the testimony of the noted Doctor, and a more scholarly man the 
 Methodist Church does not to-day afford. This view which he presents, I en- 
 dorse. My brother says that the true Jesus is the body. What a position ! 
 
84 FORSCUTT AND SEINISTS DISCUSSION. 
 
 What a dilemma my brother will find himself in, when he takes up his other 
 question. Then I presume the body of Jesus came down from heaven. 
 
 John 3: 13.— "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from 
 heaven even the Son of man which ia in heaven." 
 
 I believe Jesus came down from heaven. He was with the Father, yet my 
 brother will say, his body came down from heaven. Something more in regard 
 to that point, before this discussion closes. 
 
 He refers to the sun being darkened, and the moon, etc. Matthew 24. I 
 wish to read a little there again j there is a way to settle this question from the 
 Bible itself: 
 
 Matthew 24:30. — "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and 
 then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the 
 clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great 
 sound Of a trumpet." 
 
 Now mark, the coming of the Son of man spoken of here, is his coming in 
 the clouds of heaven, in his kingdom with power and great glory, with his angels; 
 a coming to reward mankind, to judge them. My brother,, is it an event that 
 was not to take place for a thousand or ten thousand years in the future ? Or 
 is it an event that is near at hand ? This is the point between my brother and 
 me. It is all important that we should settle this point. Matthew continues, 
 24:32: 
 
 "Now learn a parable of the fig-tree; when his branch is yet tender, and putteth. forth 
 leaves, ye know that summer ia nigh. So likewise ye, [my disciples], wheft ye shall see all 
 these things, [STow mark you, these disciples were to see all these thiigs], know that it is 
 near, even at the door." 
 
 Does that mean ten thousand years yet in the future ? Further : 
 
 "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." 
 He genea ante, translated, "this generation." Does that mean for two or 
 ten thousand years yet in the future ? Then the darkening of the sun and 
 moon; the falling of the stars here, have reference, not to the literal sun and 
 moon and stars, but to something of which they were tjrpical. In regard to this 
 matter we submit a quotation from Dr. Adam Clark's Commentary on Matthew 
 24 : 29 : 
 
 "In the prophetic language, great commotions upon the earth, are often represented un- 
 der the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens : the fall of Babylon is represented 
 by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light: and the sun and moon be- 
 ing darkened. See Isaiah 13 : 9, 10. The destruction of Egypt, by the heavens being cover- 
 ed, the sun being eclipsed with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32 : 7, 
 8. The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes, is represented by casting dawn some 
 of the host of heaven and the stars to the ground. Daniel 8:10. And this very destruction of 
 Jerusalem is represented by the prophet Joel, chapter 2 : 30, 31, by showing wonders in 
 heaven and in earth, darkming the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode 
 of describing these judgments, haves us no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the 
 present case." 
 
 "The Jewish heaven shall finish, and the sum, and moon, of its glory and happiness shall be 
 darkened, — brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the church; the moon is the gov- 
 ernment of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13 : 
 10; Ezekiel 32: 1, 8."— Lightfoot, as quoted by Dr. Adam Clark, on Matthew 24: 29. 
 
 We have other authority also. We give Brother Goodwin, and many oth- 
 er learned orthodox commentators. The best talent and learning of the world 
 are in favor of this position, and my brother knows it. 
 
 T now resume my affirmative argument. I introduce my seventh argument. 
 
 "James 5 : T, 8, 9. — "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, 
 the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, un- 
 til he receive the early and the latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the 
 coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be con- 
 demned: behold, the judge slandeth lefore the door." " 
 
FOR SCUT T AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 65 
 
 Does that mean two or ten thousand years yet in the future ? Were they 
 to look forward for two or ten thousand years ? 
 
 1 Peter 4 : 5-1 . — "Who shall give an account unto him that is ready to judge the guich and 
 the dead. For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they 
 might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But 
 tho end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." 
 
 Over eighteen hundred years ago the "end of all things" was at hand. I 
 suppose that means two or ten thousand years yet in the future, does it? I 
 suppose it must be so, if my brother is not defeated in this discussion. 
 
 Acta 10 : 41, 42. — "Not to all people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even 
 to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us 
 to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the 
 judge of quick and dead." 
 
 My brother spoke something yesterday, about ordaining me a Mormon 
 Elder. Had he done so,, would not I have been one immediately after I was 
 ordained? Jesus was (ydained the judge of quick and dead over eighteen hun- 
 d»ed years ago. According to the testimony in 2 Timothy 4; he was to judge 
 the world at his appearing and kingdom. 
 
 Matthew 10 : 23. — "When they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another; for verily 
 I say unto you. Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son man of be come." 
 
 Heb. 10: 24, 25. — "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good 
 works: not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, as the manner of some is; but 
 exhorting one another; and so much the more as ye see the day approaching." 
 
 Heb. 10:36, 31. — "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of 
 God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, 
 and will not tarry." 
 
 Does that mean that his coming will take place away in the future, yet 
 several centuries ? Again : 
 
 2 Peter 3: 10-14. — "But the day of flie Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the 
 which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with 
 fervent heat. The earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing 
 then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in aU 
 holy conversation and godUness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, 
 wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fer- 
 vent heat." 
 
 Not the literal heavens, my brother; not the literal elements; it was some- 
 thing unto which they were hastening, coming unto rapidly. 
 
 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, where- 
 in dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be dili- 
 gent, that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot and blameless." 
 
 1 Peter 4:11. — "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: 
 and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God." 
 
 Mark it, now, the apostle says the time is come. Then the time was at 
 hand centuries ago, that judgment did begin at the house of God. This closes 
 my seventh affirmative argument. 
 
 My eighth argument is, The coming of Christ was to take place in the gen- 
 eration in which he lived. Matthew 24 : 27-35 : 
 
 "For as the lightning cometli out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall 
 also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles 
 be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be dark- 
 ened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the pow- 
 ers of the lieaven shall be shaken : and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven : 
 
66 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S, DISCUSSION. 
 
 and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the 
 clouds of heaven with power and glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of 
 a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of 
 heaven to the other. Now learn a parable. of the fig tree; when his branch is yet tender, and 
 putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these 
 things, know that it is near, even at the doors." 
 
 Now, mark the language that follows, my brother; it is certain, unmistak- 
 able, clear as can be. It can not be misunderstood : 
 
 "Verily, I say unto you, this generation, [this generation], shall not pass, till all these 
 things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away." 
 
 In this language we learn that his coming in power and glory, to judge 
 mankind, and reward them according to their works, was to take place during 
 that generation. We have some criticisms upon that, which we will read you 
 by and by. Mark thirteenth chapter. I do not know but I ought to read the 
 whole chapter : 
 
 "And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him,_ilaster, see what 
 manner of stones, and what buildings are here ! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest 
 thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be 
 thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, over against the temple, Peter, and 
 James and John and Andrew asked him privately. Tell us, when shall these things be? and 
 what shall be the sign when all these things shall ,be fulfilled? And Jesus answering them, 
 began to say. Take heed lest any man deceive you : for many shall come in my name, saying, 
 I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, 
 be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation 
 shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom : and there shall be earthquakes in di- 
 vers places, and there shall be famines and troubles : these are the beginnings of sorrows. But 
 take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye 
 shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony 
 against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when th,ey 
 shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand'what ye shall speak, neither 
 do ye premeditate : but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye : for it is 
 not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, 
 and the father the son : and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them 
 to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake ; but he that shall 
 endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye ■ shall see the abomination of 
 desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth 
 imderstand), then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains : and let him that is on the 
 houae-top not go down into the house, neither enter therein to take anything out of his house : 
 and let him that is in the field not turn back ^ain for to take up his garment. But wo to them 
 that are with child, and to them that give siiok in those days ! And pray ye that your flight 
 be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the begin- 
 ning of the creation which God created imto this time, neither shall be. And except the Lord 
 hath shortened those days, no flesh should be saved : but for the elect's sake, whom he hath 
 chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is 
 Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not; for false Christ's, and false prophets shall rise, 
 and shall shew signs and wonders to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye 
 heed: behold, I have foretold you all things But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun 
 shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, 
 arid the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man 
 coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and 
 shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to 
 the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig-tree : when her branch is yet 
 tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near. So ye in like manner, when 
 ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say 
 unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven and earth 
 shall pass away ; but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and thati hour knoweth 
 no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ' ye 
 heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. I'or the Son of man is as a man 
 taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave autliority to his servants, and to every man 
 his work; and coramandsd the porter to watch. 'Watoh ye therefore: for ye know not when 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 07 
 
 the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cock-crowing, or in the 
 morning: lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I saj' unto you, I say unto 
 aU, Watch." 
 
 These things settle the matter almost as did Dr. Goodwin. Does not his- 
 tory prove, that many did come in the name of Christ back there in those days? 
 In the twenty-ninth verse of this chapter the language used, unmistakably 
 shows, that these things of which Jesus there speaks were to take place during 
 the lifetime of the apostles, for they were to see them. "When ye shall see these 
 'things," ye, my disciples, "Verily I say unto you." Hero I clinch the argument 
 for ever in my favor in this discussion. "Verily I say unto you, that this gen- 
 eration, [THIS generation], shall not pass until all these things be done." I am 
 willing to risk the entire discussion upon the meaning of the phrase, "This gen- 
 eration." The brother has complained that he had not enough to do. I think 
 I will be able to meet him upon this matter. Let hini take hold of this strong 
 argument I have presented here; let him take hold of the meaning of the phrase, 
 "This generation," let him prove, if he can, that id means anything more than the 
 natural lifetime, or th« period of thirty years, or the end of the age. Let him 
 come up to the work like a man. If he is not able to do this, he will fail, and 
 the proposition must stand forever against him. I have introduced Matthew 24, 
 and Mark 13 in this connection. Now I quote Luke 21 : 20-33: 
 
 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation 
 thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which 
 are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.. 
 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things whicli are written may bo fulfilled. But 
 wo unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days; for tliere shall 
 be great distress in the land, and wrath upon liis people; and they shall fall by the edge of 
 the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations : and Jerusalem shall be trodden 
 down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there sliall be signs in 
 the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars ; and upon the earth distress of nations, with per- 
 plexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing tliem_,for fear, and for looking 
 after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 
 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And 
 when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your re- 
 demption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable ; behold the fig-tree, and all the 
 trees; when they now shoot fortli, ye see and know of your own selves, that summer is now 
 nigh at hand. So likewise j/e, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the king- 
 dom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you. Tins generation shall not pa.ss away, un- 
 til all be fulfilled. Heave'h and earth shall pass away; but iDy words shall not pass away." 
 
 Matt. 23 : 34, 35. — "Wherefore, Behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and 
 scribes, and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your 
 synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteous 
 blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel, unto the blood of Zecharias, son 
 of Barachias, whom ye .slew between the temple and the altar." 
 
 Right here I stake my argument upon the meaning of the phrase, "This 
 generation." Take it from me if you dare. Hence we have brought the matter 
 down to a single point, the meaning of the phrase, "This generation." Let us 
 see what the Bible view is in regard to it : 
 
 Matt. 1 : n.— "So all the generations from Abraham to Daniel, are fourteen generations; 
 and from David until the carrying away into Babylon, are fourteen generations; and Irom the 
 carrying away into Babylon unto Christ, are fourteen generations." 
 
 "The original word has for its first or primary meaning, family or generation, meaning 
 the offspring or children of one parentage; second, an age or race of men, including a space 
 ' of about thirty years." — Greenfield. 
 
 Time was called, and Elder Shinn closed hisavpument. 
 
68 FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 Elder Forscutt's sixth reply. 
 
 Gentlemen Blodcrators, Ladies rind Gevilemen: 
 
 My friend has grown quite earnest; he is anxious that we "come down to 
 our work like men." I think, if we have not done so, it is about time we did; 
 for, if we have not been worJcinf/, we certainly have been playing long enough. 
 
 The testimonies that have been quoted during the latter part of the Elder's 
 speech, I shall leave for the present, and proceed to notice, first, his statements 
 that I had challenged him to produce evidence that John the Revelator had 
 died; on which he comes with a great show of "force," and some flourish of 
 trumpets, and confidently enquires, "Does not my brother know that I can do 
 it?" I answer, I did not, and I have not learned it yet. 
 
 After asking that question in this manner, he presents us the testimony of 
 Dr. Fleetwood, who lived perhaps from twenty-five to fifty years ago. What 
 wonderful testimony ! John, he says, died near eighteen hundred years ago, 
 and a man born seventeen hundred years after he died is brought on the stand 
 to bear witness that he did die. Wonderfully reliable account this ! Wonder- 
 ful evidence this I 
 
 Are we to bring individuals living only, and not until now, Sir, to answer 
 questions concerning occurrenees which are said to have taken place near eigh- 
 teen hundred years ago ! Such testimony, unless corroborated by witnesses then 
 living, I would not receive, neither would you, nor would any man in his sane 
 mind. Dr. Fleetwood simply gave his opinion ; and all the weight there is at- 
 tached to his statements is the weight of a man's opinion. It makes no differ- 
 ence how learned or good Mr. Fleetwood may have been, it does not help my 
 friend one particle. 
 
 He tells me that it devolves upon me to prove that John the Revelator is 
 still living ; and that if I fail in this, I fail throughout. This is a new principle 
 in argument. If a man should fail in one point, he fails in everything. In 
 such peculiar condition do we find mankind to-day, that I do not believe there 
 is a man living but what fails some times in some things. If it be true that 
 man fails in everything, when and because he fails in one thing, I am sorry for 
 the race. If I fail in one point, by not proving that John still lives, and con- 
 sequently fail in everything; I fear, Sir, you' will fail totally by not sustaining 
 your position, by not proving that John did die. But I will let this novel idea 
 of failure, urged^by the Elder, pass for what it is worth. The onus probandi'Js 
 yours, Sir. You assume that all have died who heard the Savior declare that 
 "there be some of them that stand here which shall not taste of death, till they 
 have seen the kingdom of God come with power," and it rests with you to prove 
 that^^Ae^ did die, and especially that John died, of whom the Savior said to 
 Peter, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee." 
 
 Dr. Goodwin is quoted, a Methodist gentleman, who gives his view, like the 
 rest have done, about what was meant by Jesus in his testimonies to his disciples, 
 and that view is hrouglit as evidence that Jesus did mean just what Dr. Good- 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 69 
 
 win supposed him to have meant. Sir, you may bring Dr. Goodwin, Dr. Camp- 
 bell, and any or all the doctors you please, and their testimony does not weigh 
 as much as the weight of a straw with me, unless that testimony accords with 
 the word of God. Theirs is the testimony of men only, and may be received 
 and valued as man's testimony only. 
 
 The brother tells you, that I shall find myself in a very difficult place, be- 
 cause I say that the body was Jesus. Well the angel is just in the same place, 
 so I shall be in good company there. 
 
 "Behold, tUe angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son 
 of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary, thy wife; for that which is conceived in her is of 
 the Holy Ghost. She shall hriug forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS." 
 
 Was not that the body, Elder Shinn? 
 
 I presume Brother Shinn, even, would not venture the argument, that 
 Jesus never had an existence in spirit before this life. If he had had an exist- 
 ence before the existence in the body, then the phrases, "that lioly tiling 
 which shall be horn of thee" and "thou shalt call his name Jesus," had refer- 
 ence to the body, for tlat so born was the body, and nothing but the body. My 
 brother may find himself in the difficult place he assigns to me. 
 
 As to the question of his coming down from heaven, Christ said, "I came 
 forth from the Father." — John IG : 28. "Before Abraham was, I am." — John 
 8 : 58. What do we understand by this? — That his body was before Abraham? 
 Where is the sane man that could be made to believe such an argument, as that 
 Jesus meant that his body existed before Abraham lived? It was something 
 then beside the body, it was the spirit that came down from the Father ; not 
 the body, but the spirit then within the body. 
 
 The same kind of testimony was borne of John : 
 
 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." — John 1 : 6. 
 
 Similar testimony is borne also concerning Jeremiah. Jer. 1:5: 
 
 ' "Before I formed thee * * * J knew thee; and iefore thou comest forth out of the womb 
 I sanctified thee, and ordained thee to be a prophet unto the nations." 
 
 jSTothing more strange in the case of Jesus, than in these cases. 
 
 Again, we are referred to the twenty-fourth chapter of Matthew. The 
 brother tells us he rests his whole argument on the phrase, rendered in King 
 James' translation, "This generation." 
 
 I do not know that it very particularly concerns me as to what he rests his 
 argument upon, but is his argument truth ? is the question with me; what "this 
 generation" indicates," whether the generation then living, or the generation 
 that shoitld lire when these things should come to pass, is the point of difference 
 between us. I think if we will examine carefully the testimony given in this 
 chapter, we will conclude that it does not refer to the generation then living, 
 but the generation that should live when these things should come to pass. 
 
 As the brother has referred you to the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew, for 
 evidence, I also refer to that, commencing with the thirty-first verse, desiring 
 you to bear in mind that the brother said this refers to the time of "this genera- 
 tion," in the twenty-fourth chapter, to the same time "when the Son of man shall 
 come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the 
 throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations, and he shall 
 separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats." 
 
 Now, Sir, at or after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, was there 
 then gathered before Jesus all nations ? If it be referred to the time v:hen Jem- 
 
7.1 FOES GUT T A. YD SIIINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 salem icas taken hy Titus; or if it be referred to the time when Jerusalem was 
 besieged by the forces under the generals of the Roman army, did Jesus then sit 
 upon the throne of his glory? It is certainly a very strange position to take; 
 for instead of all nations being gathered, not even the Christians were there, as 
 the gentleman himself told us yesterday; for in obedience to the commandment 
 of the Lord Jesus Christ, they had fled to Pella, because Jesus had instructed 
 them, that when they should see Jerusalem encompassed with armies, they were 
 to flee to the mountains. I think we are safe in saying that all nations were 
 not gathered at that time. Some of the minor nations, under one of the great 
 nations, namely, the Eoman nation, were represented there by the Roman army, 
 that army representing, perhaps, the proudest nation upon the earth. And why 
 were they there? To bring destruction upon Jerusalem, upon the people of 
 God. Surely, Sir, this furnishes no argument that this was a fulfillment of the 
 declaration that all nations shall be gathered before him, when lie shall reward 
 the righteous, and bring condemnation upon the wicked. Surely, Sir, none will 
 presume to say, that the Jews were the only wicked people upon the earth, and 
 therefore the only people to be brought to judgment. True, they were wicked, 
 and they were made to feel the chastising hand of God; but at the time prophe- 
 cied of by Jesus, not the Jews only, but all nations are to be gathered before 
 him; and all were not gathered at iior after the destruction of Jerusalem. 
 
 When he comes in glory with his angels, he is to sit upon the throne of his 
 glory, to judge the nations, all of which have to bebrought before him, and the 
 wicked, all the wicked, are to be punished. At the taking of Jerusalem, this 
 was at best only partly fulfilled. 
 
 We learn from V(hat was road to us in the last speech we listened to, that 
 when Jesus comes to sit in judgment, his sign is to appear in heaven, and all the 
 tribes of the earth arc to mourn. But, are "all the tribes of the earth" the few 
 people who were gathered together in Jerusalem ? Does "all the tribes of the 
 earth" comprise only that part of the Israelitish nation that was there, two and 
 a half tribes? Are they the "all the tribes of the earth" that were to mourn 
 when they see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven. The gentleman 
 takes strange ground in presenting to us such an incongruous idea. 
 
 The latter part of this verse is directly connected with the first part by the 
 conjunction "and," and the adverb "then." 
 
 '^And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven : and then shall all the tribes 
 of the earth mourn: and tliey shaU see Vii% Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with 
 power and great glory." — Matt. 24: 30. 
 
 " When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, ffiera 
 shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered oS nations: and he 
 shall separaite them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats." — 
 Matt. 25:31, 32. 
 
 Did all the tribes of the earth named in Matthew 24, and all the nations of 
 the earth mentioned in Matthew 25, see the Son of man come with power and 
 great glory, at the time when Jerusalem was taken ? Did they see the Son of 
 man come with power and great glory, when the Holy Ghost was sent upon the 
 day of Pentecost? Decidedly not. When the people live who are spoken of in 
 the Savior's prophecy as "this generation," they are to see all these things ful- 
 filled ; that generation did not see all these things fulfilled. The aro-ument pre- 
 sented by my brother, is one that scepticism may delight to receive ; for it fur- 
 nishes a firm basis for the falsity of prophecy, and it is one too which sceptics 
 have used effectively. Let us now consider these scriptural evidences in jux- 
 taposition, and we shall discover that they are synchronistic : 
 
FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISOUSSION. 
 
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72 FORSOUTT AND SEINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 We have the declarations affected hy this clause, "this generation," yet to 
 be fulfilled. There were many of the events referred to in these chapters fulfill- 
 ed in the history of the destruction of Jerusalem; there have been others of 
 them fulfilled in the history of events since that time. It is argued by Elder 
 Shinn that all these events spoken of, were to take place at the destruction of 
 Jerusalem ; if this were true, I should reject the Bible as not being an inspired 
 record, for all these things were not fulfilled at that time. The first part of 
 them only was fulfilled then; but the words of Jesus were true. The second 
 part has been fulfilled since, and the remaining part is yet to be fulfilled. 
 
 At the time when Jesus comes in power and great glory, some great events^ 
 will take place ; hefore it, the darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of 
 the stars; distress of nations ; unusual perplexity of the mind froni fear ; the sea 
 heaving herself with convulsive sighs and bursting beyond her limits; and if you 
 will allow my personal opinion, based on a study of prophecy, a deep-laid plot for 
 Catholic supremacy will create a confederacy of forces for confederacy of inter- 
 est in Catholic unity; and while Turkey's effeminacy makes her become'a prey 
 to Eussian intrepidity, amid the dynastic changes of the old world, there will be 
 felt the bondage of debt to the Jews by the governments of Europe, which some 
 of them will redeem themselves from by payment, while others, unwilling or un- 
 able to pay, will gladly join in an enterprise that looks to "a spoil and^a prey" 
 from Israel and promises release from unpaid obligations. These are all pre- 
 figured in prophecy, and as past events have taken place as prophecied of, so we 
 believe that every future event spoken of will have a like literal fulfillment; "for 
 no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." 
 
 The testimony of the prophets concerning events of old was literally fulfill- 
 ed; it will be also concerning events of the last days, making of course due al- 
 lowance for such descriptions as are metaphorical, such phrases as are metonymi- 
 cal, in reference both to fulfilled prophecy of the past, and predictions of the 
 future. To illustrate: — When the prophets spoke about the destruction of 
 . Babylon, they foretold the manner of its being besieged, the name of Cyrus be- 
 fore he was yet born, as he who should conquer its people and possess its strong- 
 holds, the manner and fact of its decline, even to the names of certain animals 
 which should inhabit it; and. Sir, they are found there to-day — literally there, 
 the very birds and beasts which the prophets said should inhabit the ruins of 
 Babylon. The prophecies of scripture which have been fulfilled in this age, 
 have had a literal fulfillment also, which is known to many now present. 
 
 Dr. Adam Clark is presented to us again. If the brother had, in this con- 
 nection, read or quoted Dr. Adam Clark a little further, he would have seen that 
 the Doctor declares his belief in a future day of judgment, and that that future 
 judgment will take place at the coming of Jesus Christ in glory. The brother 
 did not quote that point. 
 
 Elder Shinn tells us that the end spoken of in Matthew twenty-fourth chap- 
 ter was the end of the Mosaic order of things ; that the departure of the old 
 heaven and the old earth, was the end. of the Mosaic order of things. I sup- 
 pose he concludes that the earth and the heavens were to pass away. What the 
 earth is he has not told us; but the heavens, he says, were "the Mosaic, order of 
 things." Has not the Mosaic order been among the Jews since these "heavens" 
 passed away? If the testimony given to us in this chapter be true, there is to 
 be a sudden, not a gradual passing away. 
 
 "For as in the days that were before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying 
 and giving in marriage, until the day that IToe entered into the ark. And knew not until the- 
 flood came, and took them all away: so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." — Matt.. 
 25:38, 39. 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 73 
 
 After the tribulation of the Jews, during the continuance of which we 
 learn from history that one million one hundred thousand perished, while more 
 than a million were sold as slaves, they were scattered all over the inhabited 
 earth, in fulfillment of prophecy concerning them; but they are to be gathered 
 together again, as testified by the prophet Joel, in his second chapter, before the 
 terrible ^^day of the Lord." Hear the prophetic command : 
 
 "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in myjholy^mountain : let all the in- 
 habitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand And 
 
 the Lord shall utter his voice before his army : for his camp is very great : for he is strong 
 that executeth his word : for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible ; and who can 
 
 abide it? Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea, the Lord 
 
 will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye 
 shall be satisfied therewith : and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen .... 
 Pear not, land; be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things. Be not afraid, ye 
 beasts of the field : for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, 
 the fig-tree and the vine do yield their strength. Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and re- 
 joice in the Lord your God : for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will 
 cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. 
 And the floors shall be fu^ of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I 
 will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the canker-worm, and the caterpillar, 
 and the palmer-worm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, 
 and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with 
 you: and my people shall never be ashamed. And ye shall know that I am in the midst of 
 Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else : and my people shall never be 
 ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, 
 and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your 
 young men shall see visions : and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those 
 days will I pour out my Spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heaven and in the earth, 
 blood, and fire, and pillars of Smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon 
 into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, 
 that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered : for in mount Zion and 
 in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and the remnant whom the Lord 
 shall call."— Joel 2:1, 11, 18, 19, 21-32. 
 
 Whatever, Sir, may have been, or may now be Zion's desolation and Jeru- 
 salem's sorrow, the day of their redemption cometh. And after their restoration, 
 after fruitfulnesa is again upon their land, which thank Grod has already come, 
 afterwards the Lord will pour out his Spirit upon them, and miraculous gifts 
 and heavenly blessings shall attend them, and they shall nevermore be afraid 
 nor ashamed. How cheering the prospect; how much grander this thought 
 than that of Elder Shinn, that their national judgment is past, and their national 
 destiny ended. . I will give the brother a few passages relevant to this: 
 
 2 Samuel 1 : 10." — Moreover, I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant 
 them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more: neither shall the chil- 
 dren of wickedness afflict them any more as beforetime." 
 
 Isa. 33:11. "Thine eyes shall see the King in his beauty: they shall behold the land 
 
 that is very far off. * * * Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see 
 Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes 
 thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken. But there 
 the glorious Lord will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams, wherein shall go no gal- 
 ley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby. For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is 
 our lawgiver, the Lord is our King; he will save us."— 20-22ra. 
 
 Jer. 33 : 10-11. — "Thus saith the Lord: Again there shall be heard in tliis place, which ye 
 say shall be desolate without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the 
 streets of Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man, and without inhabitants, and without 
 beast, the voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice 
 of the bride, the voice of them that shall say. Praise the Lord of hosts: for the Lord is good; 
 for his mercy endureth forever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the 
 house of the Lord. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith 
 the Lord. Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Again in tliis place, which is desolate without man 
 and without beast, and in aU the cities thereof, shall be a habitation of shepherds causmg their 
 flocks to lie down. In the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the vale, and in the cities of 
 
74 FORSOUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 the south, and in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and ia the cities of 
 Judah, shall the flocks pass again under the hands of him that telleth them, saith the Lord. 
 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have 
 promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days, and at that time, 
 will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David ; and he shall execute judg- 
 ment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall 
 dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our Righteousness. 
 For thus saith the Lord ; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of 
 Israel." 
 
 Isa. 1 : 24-21. — "Therefore, saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, 
 Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries,' and avenge me of mine enemies. And I will turn my 
 hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin : and I will re- 
 store thy judges as at the first, and thy counselors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt 
 be called. The city of righteousness, the faithful city. Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, 
 and her converts with righteousness." 
 
 Jer. 23 : 5-8. — "Behold, the day is come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a 
 righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice 
 in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his 
 name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be- 
 hold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say. The Lord liveth, which 
 brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; but the Lord liveth, which brought 
 up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all coun- 
 tries whither I had driven them ; and they shall dwell in their own land." 
 
 Jesus is now in heaven, where he must remain till the times of the Gentiles 
 are full, till the times of restitution, as Peter declares in Acts 3:21: 
 
 "Whom the heavens must receive, until the times of restitution of all things, which God 
 hath spoken by the mouth ot all his holy prophets, since the world began." 
 
 He is now, we are told in Rev. 3:21, on his father's throne; but he will 
 return to judge and reign, as we read in Isaiah 9 : 2-4. His coming to judge is 
 not past, Elder Shinn, but future. The preparation is being made for his return 
 now. 
 
 The preparation is gradual and progressive; but the end, or coming of 
 Christ, is to be sudden. 
 
 1. The sun is to be darkened. 
 
 2. The moon is to refuse to give her light. 
 
 3. The stars are to fall from heaven. 
 
 4. The powers of the heavens are to be shaken. 
 
 5. The sign of the Son of man is to appear in heaven. 
 
 6. All the tribes of the earth are to mourn. 
 
 7. All the tribes are to see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, 
 ■with power and great glory. 
 
 "Tell us what shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the world." 
 In answer to this latter part of the apostles' three-fold question, Jesus said, 
 "Now learn a parable of the fig-tree; when his branch is yet tender, and putteth 
 forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all 
 these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." — Matt. 24 : 32, 33. So 
 will be the coming and the end, even at the doors; 
 
 When the predictions concerning the sun and moon and stars shall have 
 received their fulfillment; 
 
 When the sign of the Son of man is seen in heaven ; 
 
 When ALL the tribes of the earth shall mourn; 
 
 When, (as John tells us), the great and the mighty shall call for the rocks 
 and the mountains to fall on them, and hide them from the face of him who 
 shall come. 
 
 When these things are fulfilled, then it will be nigh, even at the doors. It 
 will be just as Jesus said, " When ye see all these things," not now, but "when ye 
 see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors ;" which is equiva- 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 75 
 
 lent to when these things will be fulfilled. If you take the adverb then, you 
 must also take the adverb when with it. 
 
 The gentleman quotes for us 1 Peter -1 : 17, 18 : 
 
 "Tho time is come, when judgment must begin at the house of God. * * * And if tlio 
 righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear." 
 
 This I think to be a very proper quotation indeed, and though in the pres- 
 ent tense, does not affect the future judgment; for judgment had begun at the 
 house of God. The house of Israel is called his house, and he had decreed that 
 Israel should be cast out of their city, and that it should be trodden under foot 
 of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. They were to lose 
 their inheritance, and be scattered to the different parts of the earth. Jesus 
 had declared all these things concerning that house ; the Holy Spirit declared 
 too, through the apostle, as you have heard it read to us this morning, that judg- 
 ment had begun at the house of God at that time. The Jews, as of Israel, were 
 the house of God at that time, and they were to be punished; butwnEN he shall 
 come, "where shall the wicked and the ungodly appear ?" Those that have not 
 been numbered among God's people? 
 
 Does it follow from this declaration, that the great judgment, tho "day of 
 judgment," spoken of in the word of God, has been fulfilled, or was then fulfilled 
 upon them? No, sir, if the judgment was then fulfilled, God's people, his 
 chosen people, whom he has covenanted and sworn to save, are lost. If the 
 great judgment had then been fulfilled, his people would not have been scattered 
 and driven from their homes; but would have met a different kind of punish- 
 ment than a national one, in fulfillment of Jesus' declarations. "We find many 
 descriptions prophetic of their redemption, and their restoration to Palestine, in 
 Bible prophecies, yet to bo fulfilled ; notwithstanding, therefore, the reference 
 made to judgment on the house of God, (an expression then used, and properly 
 used to describe Israel), the chosen people of God will yet be restored. 
 
 The prophets of old, the prophets of God had dreams and the interpretation 
 of dreams, the gift of prophecy, visions, ministration of angels, the word of the 
 Lord by the Holy Ghost, for we are told by Peter, that "holy men of old spake 
 as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost." 
 
 The Holy Ghost declared things that should come to pass, not things 
 that needed a private interpretation, for Peter adds, "that no prophecy of the 
 scripture is of any private interpretation." The things which were revealed 
 were to have a literal fulfillment, as history shows that the declarations of the 
 prophets, referring to what is now past, did have. So is it all through the 
 J3ible, even to the last book, the book of revelations. In this book, metaphorical, 
 and filled with beautiful imagery as it is, we read the testimony of John to the 
 seven churches in Asia, and though his book is filled with symbols of deep and 
 mystic import, like the words about the candlesticks being moved out of their 
 places, yet the metaphors employed symbolize that [which was literally true, 
 which have been or shall be accomplished; for "these words are true and faith- 
 ful." If the events spoken of in the Bible that have already been fulfilled, have 
 had a literal fulfillment, confirming that which is either plainly predicted, or 
 eymbolicaly presaged, will not those which are yet to be fulfilled have the same 
 kind of a fulfillment? 
 
 Coming back to the question of the time when Jesus was to set up his 
 kingdom, (and I call your attention to it again. Sir, that you may clear this 
 point up, or confess your inability to do so), I call your attention to the fact that 
 at the time when Jesus was upon the earth, there was no division of the Boman 
 empire, in the sense of its territory being divided into independent kingdoms. 
 It was one, and only one. I quote here from Dr. Nelson on Infidelity, whose 
 
76 FORSCUTT AND SHINJSrS DISCUSSION. 
 
 able work was written with a view to convince unbelievers of the truth of scnp- 
 ture. I quote from his description of the divisions of the Roman government in 
 the eighth century, not as scriptural, but as historical evidence. 
 
 "This fourth empire was governed in another manner, by other maxims, than any of the 
 preceding, and in process of time it was divided into ten kingdoms, which have been thus 
 numbered in the eighth century. 1. The Senate of Rome; 2. The Greeks at Ravenna; 3. 
 The Lombards inLombardy; 4. The Huns in Hungary; 5. The Alemanes in Germany; 6. 
 The Franks' in France; 1. The Burgundians in Burgundy; 8. The Goths in Spain; 9. The 
 Britons; 10. The Saxons in Britain. They are indeed reckoned up in several ways, by dif- 
 ferent writers, according to the date assigned to their enumeration, but in general, it is clear 
 that they were nearly the same witla the principal kingdoms in Europe at this day. It is cer- 
 tain that the Roman empire was divided into ten kingdoms, and though they might be some- 
 times more and sometimes fewer, yet they were still known by the name of the ten kingdoms 
 of the "Western empire." 
 
 Bishop Lloyd gives them thus:— The Huns, about A.D. 356; Ostrogoths, 
 377; Visogoths, 378; Franks, 407; Vandals, 407; Sueves and Alans, 407; 
 Burgundians, 407; Herules and Kugians, 476; Saxons, 476; Longobards, from 
 426 to 483. 
 
 Mr. Mede, thus : — Brittons, Saxons in Britain, Franks, Burgundians in 
 France, Visogoths in South of France and part of Spain, Sueves and Alans, 
 Vandals, Alemanes, Ostrogoths and Greeks. 
 
 Sir Isaac Newton, thus: — Vandals and Alans, Suevians, Visogoths, Alans 
 in G-allia, Burgundians, Franks, Brittons, Huns, Lombards, Ravennas. 
 
 The continually changing dynasties of this period and the scantiness of his- 
 toric details, make it difficult to determine accurately the names of the ten di- 
 visions; but the division is on all sides conceded to have taken place. Mr. 
 Nelson, still further elaborating this subject, gives many testimonies concerning 
 the time of the setting up of the little kingdom before whom three others were 
 to fall, as well as other data on which I might base a lengthy argument, if this 
 was the subject of debate. As, however, I only follow Elder Shinn on this sub- 
 ject to prove that the scriptures teach that this division must take place before 
 the time of the preparation for Christ's return, I can not amplify. 
 
 After all these things shall have been fulfilled; after the time and times 
 and dividing of times that this little horn should reign; after all this Daniel says: 
 
 "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose gar- 
 ment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool : his throne was like the 
 fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before 
 him : thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten tliousand times ten thousand stood be- 
 fore him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. * * * i saw in the night 
 visions, and behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to 
 the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him do- 
 minion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peeple, nations, and languages, should serve him: 
 his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that 
 which shall not be destroyed." — Daniel 1 : 9, 10, 13, 14. 
 
 Here we learn that the Son of man was seen to come in the clouds, and af- 
 ter he came, there was given to him a kingdom, not before, but after this twelve 
 hundred and sixty days; after this time, times and dividing of times had passed 
 away; after this Daniel saw given to this Son of man a kingdom, and then "the 
 kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom, under the whole 
 heaven, shall be given to the people of the Saints of the Most High." — Daniel 
 7 : 27. "And they shall possess it forever and ever." — 18u. 
 
 Sir, was this fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem? Were the Saints 
 then put in possession of the kingdom ? Has Jesus ever ruled as King over all 
 the earth since that time? Have his Saints ruled? 
 
 My friend has said that the gospel was to be preached in all the world, be- 
 fore the reign of Jesus began, and as what Elder Shinn calls "his mediatorial 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 77 
 
 reign" commenced when he ascended to teaven, the gospel must have been 
 preached in all the world as early as the year 33 of the Christian era. What 
 think you? 
 
 It is true that in Col. 1 : 23, the apostle testifies that the hope of, or the 
 gospel, it is not clear which, was preached in all the world ; but when consider- 
 ing this testimony, we must remember that but a portion of the world was then 
 known. That which was the world to them, is but a portion of the world to us. 
 A great many nations were not known to them. Paul also says in Hebrews 
 third chapter in connection with fourth chapter that the gospel was preached to 
 the Israelites under Moses ; both of these utterances must be taken in a qualified 
 sense. If the gospel was preached to all nations, tell me who went to the Indies 
 and preached the gospel to the inhabitants thereof? Who went to Australasia, 
 until our own time, to preach the gospel ? Tell me, Sir, who came to the abori- 
 gines of this country? Who went to farther India and preached the gospel? 
 Tell me. Sir, who went to China, and preached the word of God in China ? 
 Who preached the gospel to the Japanese? Tell me, Sir, when, and by whom 
 the Islanders of the Paiific, the peoples of Oceanica, heard the gospel preached 
 unto them? The truth is, it had- not been preached in those lands; some of 
 them will but open their doors partially for it to be preached unto them even 
 now. 
 
 Did not Paul tell the truth where the gentleman quotes? Yes, he told the 
 truth in the same sense in which it is told, where we are informed that John 
 was baptizing in Jordan, and all the people went out and were baptized of him. 
 Now the gentleman will not believe a word of it, I know, as a literal truth, that 
 all the people were baptized. It is simply a synecdochioal form of speech, put- 
 ting the whole for a part, and used to indicate that a great many of the people, 
 a great multitude came to John's baptism here, as before it indicates the exten- 
 siveness of the preaching done. We can not believe it in its literal sense fully|; 
 firstly, because when the Pharisees came to his baptism, John called them a 
 "generation of vipers ;" secondly, because when Jesus asked the Pharisees this 
 question, "The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?" They were 
 afraid to answer him, lest if they said it was from heaven, he should condemn 
 them, because they had not obeyed it, and if they said it was of men, they feared 
 the people, because so many believed on John; so they dared not answer him; 
 and, thirdly, Luke tells us that "the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel 
 of G-od against themselves, not being baptized with John's baptism." 
 
 We discover then, when the scriptures states that all the people were bap- 
 tized of him, the writer does not mean to convey the idea that all the people, in 
 the broadest acceptation of this phrase, were baptized of him ; for some were 
 condemned for not being baptized of him. 
 
 I wish to refer again to Thessalonians, and see whether the coming of Christ 
 there spoken of was fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem : 
 
 2 Thess. 1 : 1-10. — "And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the lord Jesus 
 shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on 
 them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be 
 punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of 
 his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his Saints, and to be admired in all them 
 that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." 
 
 What do we understand from this ? Is it not that those who were dis- 
 tressed, troubled, and sufiering, should rest with the apostle, until the time when 
 the Lord Jesus should be revealed from heaven, in flaming fire, taking vengeance 
 on them that know not God? Sir, the very opposite of this took place at the 
 destruction of Jerusalem. 
 
 This apostle, in another place, speaks of the heathen as those "who know 
 
78 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 not God." The heathen were not taken vengeance on, but Jerusalem was taken, 
 and the Jews, who were the people of Grod, were scattered; and. Sir, the heath- 
 en were the instruments who did this work. They were the instruments of 
 Grod's vengeance on those who, as a nation, believed on him; the very opposite. 
 Sir, I repeat, to what is spoken of by the apostle, "Taking vengeance on them 
 that know not Grod, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." When 
 is this to be? " When he shall come to be glorified in his Saints, and to be ad- 
 mired in all them that believe." 
 
 In the opening portion of the next chapter, this same apostle writes : 
 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our 
 gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by 
 spirit nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the dmj of Christ is at hmid." 
 
 Now, brother, you and Paul differ widely this time, you have told us that 
 the day of Christ was then right at hand, and have urged upon us that your 
 understanding pf those words was right; emphatically, you say, "at once; not a 
 thousand or ten thousand years in the future; not a long way off." Now, Sir, it 
 is "you and Paul for it." 
 
 "Be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by 
 word, nor by letter, as that the day of Christ is at hand;" that is to say. Be not 
 troubled, it is not at hand yet, "For that day shall not come except there be a 
 falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition ; who op- 
 poseth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped ; so 
 that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." 
 This must all be fulfilled before the day of Christ, before Jesus comes; he, there- 
 fore, did not come at the destruction of Jerusalem. 
 
 Elder Porscutt yielded to the call of "Time." 
 
 Elder Shinn's seventh argument was as follows. 
 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 Again we continue our friendly discussion. T shall first review my broth- 
 er's last speech, before I introduce my other affirmative arguments, or proceed 
 to finish the one last under consideration. My brother seems to question the 
 evidence I introduced, in regard to John not being now living. If you remem- 
 ber, I introduced evidence from Dr. Fleetwood. Of course the evidence of Mr. 
 Fleetwood, in regard to that matter, is not what is given, simply, but it was the 
 strongest evidence in that direction ; the best testimony given by ancient his- 
 torians. I introduce now the authority of Eusebius, upon the death of John : 
 
 "In this manner St. John continued to labor in the vineyard of his great Master, until 
 (kath put an end to all his toils, and sufferings, which happened in the beginning'of Trajan's 
 reign, in the ninety-eighth year of his age." 
 
 And according to Eusebius, his remains were buried near Ephesus. Sacred 
 Biography and History, by J. W. Harding, D. D. 
 
 This is the evidence of that ancient historian, in regard to this matter. If 
 John is living, I remark again, that my brother must stand or fall upon that 
 point. If John is not living to-day, then my brother's argument, I repeat it, 
 must fall. If John has met his death, then my brother must evidently relin- 
 quish his position. But if John is not dead, if he is still living, where is he? 
 Why is not some one able to point him out? I can tell you there is a great 
 many men, in this day and age of the world, who would be very anxious to see 
 John. Again I remark, if John is still living in this world, here, in mortality, 
 it certainly would be known ; some one would certainly be able to point him 
 out. I notice Brother Manford, in his "Twenty-Five Years in the West " in a 
 
F0R8GUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 79 
 
 discussion with a gentleman belonging to the same denomination as my brother 
 does, upon this very point he claimed that John was still living ; and when 
 pressed as to where he is, he replied by saying, "He is up north." Again I 
 remark, my brother, your success or failure depends on your making the point 
 clear, that John is still living in mbrtality. We consider the position he has 
 taken to be, that John was not to die. Again I call my brother's attention to 
 the argument which I presented from Matthew 16 : 27, 28: 
 
 "Verily I say unto you, there be some standing hero, which shall not taste of death, till 
 they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." 
 
 He claims that John was one that was standing there, and was not to taste 
 of death, until he should see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. He places 
 that kingdom still in the future, and wants to make us believe that John is still 
 living. But there must be more than John, brother, for there be some standing 
 here, which shall not taste of death, until they see the Son of man coming in his 
 kingdom. The word some means more than one. The declaration is here, there 
 be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, until they see the Son of 
 man coming in his kingiom. Again to analyze that matter, the word is equiva- 
 lent to the word generation; as when it is said, "This generation shall not all 
 pass away until all these things be fulfilled," it means more than one individual 
 at least, and places the coming of Christ as a past event. Let us see the Bible 
 testimony in regard to this matter : 
 
 John 21 : 21-23. — "Peter seeing him, saith to Jesug, Lord, and what shall this man do ? 
 Jesus saith unto him. If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou 
 me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die; yet 
 Jesua said not unto him. He shall not die; but if I will that he tarry till I come What is that 
 to thee." 
 
 The Jews supposed that Jesus was a king, to come and reign as a literal 
 king, a temporal king. In this they were disappointed; and my brother is la- 
 boring under the same mistake that the Jews were then. 
 
 "Yet Jesus said not unto them, he shall not die;" Jesus never said he 
 should not die ; this was only n saying that went out, a misapprehension of the 
 Jews, in regard to the nature of the reign of the Messiah, supposing it would be 
 a temporal reign. "Jesus said not unto them he shall not die, but if I will that 
 he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" If there was some standing there 
 who should not taste of death, until they should see the son of man coming in 
 his kingdom, then that event is in the past. 
 
 "All nations," my brother says, "were not gathered together at Jerusalem." 
 What does he mean by this ? He makes reference to where it is said, "All Je- 
 rusalem and Judea went out to Jordan, and were baptized of John in the river 
 Jordan, c nfe.ssing their sins," etc., and then wants to know what sort of defini- 
 tion I would attach to it. I would use it precisely in the very sense in which it 
 is used in the Bible. Let us see what sense it is used in. The brother says 
 positively in his last speech, that the gospel was not preached in all the world, 
 only in n limited sense. Then you deny the positive words of the apostle Paul. 
 I here afiinii, that precisely in the same sense all nations were gathered together 
 at Jerusalem, that all the people went out and were baptized of John in Jordan, 
 and the gospel was preached in all the world. Is the word "all" to have a dif- 
 ferent signification iu the passage in dispute, from what it does in these others? 
 
 Matt. 25:31, 32. — "When the Sou of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels 
 with him, then simll he .sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all 
 nations: iind lie shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from 
 the goats." 
 
 Halt. 24; 14 —"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a 
 witness unto all nallons, and then shall the end come." 
 
 ■'I will <;at!ier all nations against Jerusalem to battle." 
 
80 FORSGUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 How does it happen that the word all in this passage is a mistake, or has 
 a' different meaning from what it has it has in the other passages? It can 
 not he. We understand it to be in the. familiar sense, precisely in the same 
 sense in which we understand Matthew twenty-five. The same as the all in the 
 other passages. It was an event to transpire during that generation I have 
 shown. My brother defined the word all, and defined it correctly too, and says 
 it means a great many. He being the standard, I believe this matter decided. 
 As for me it is all that I claim. 
 
 "That generation never did see these things." I am a little astonished at 
 my brother, when I have shown and established that all these events were to 
 take place during that generation. "Verily I say unto you, all of these things 
 shall come upon this generation." Again, "Verily I say unto you, this genera- 
 tion shall not pass, till these things be fulfilled." Does the word this mean 
 that? He would make it appear that "this generation" means a generation to 
 come into the world, in eight or ten centuries. The word this never means that. 
 This generation, or the generation living, never has any other meaning than a 
 period of thirty years, or the lifetime of man, and these things did take place 
 during that generation. I take the view infidels take, my brother says. The 
 view that infidels take is precisely the view, that same view that you take, my 
 brother, in this discussion; for they view the stars there spoken of as literal 
 stars ; the darkening of the sun, as the darkening of the literal sun. They say, 
 "We see by the Bible, that the literal moon has to be darkened." Thus you 
 see that infidels take the same literal view that my brother does of this matter. 
 Do you know the meaning of literal ? Dare you take the position that the stars 
 of heaven shall fall ? Your position crowds you to say that the literal stars of 
 heaven will fall. We say still, that this is highly figurative language. My 
 brother referred to the stars of heaven falling. I remember an account of that, 
 which states that an old man said, he saw the north star fall right plump into 
 his yard, yet we know no such a thing took place. The idea of my brother 
 leads to this. 
 
 But before this age, ancient people thought they saw the stars fall from 
 heaven, and how ridiculous it does seem. 
 
 "The end of the world." I want to look at that matter a little. 
 
 "Dr. Adam Clark, who believed with tiie best of modera Biblical scliolars, that the book 
 of Revelation was written iefm-e tlie destruction, thus disposes of three favorite proof texts of this 
 dogma, 'Behold he cometh with clouds.' — Rev. 1 : 1. This relates, perhaps, to his coming to 
 destroy Jerusalem. 'Behold I come quickly.' — Rev. 22:12. I come to establish my cause ; 
 comfort and support my followers, and punish the wicked. 'Surely I come quickly.' — Rev. 
 22 : 20. 'This may be truly said to every person in every age.' We repeat that the phrases, 
 'the end,' 'end of the world,' 'last day,' 'day of the Lord,' and kindred phrases, nowhere occur 
 in the Bible, referring to the closing up of earthly affairs. They can not be so applied, with- 
 out doing violence to the opinion of eminent commentators, both ancient and modern, who are 
 entitled to a respectful consideration." — T. A. Goodwin, Mode of Man's Immortality, page 141. 
 
 Dr. Adam Clark says, the end of the world means the end of the age. We 
 have still a more ancient commentator, namely, Paul, who speaks in Hebrews 9: 
 26 of the end of the world as the end of the age ; also in Hebrews 11:2, "Hath 
 in these last days spoken unto us by his Son." 
 
 Now the argument of my brother from Acts. I call his attention to the 
 fact, that Peter says, "This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel," 
 this Pentecostal season, this outpouring of the Holy Spirit; "This is that which 
 was spoken of by the prophet Joel, saying, in the last days;" that is, it was fulfilled, 
 "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel." Now the brother comes 
 with an argument xtpon Joel, "This is that which was spoken of by the prophet, 
 Joel, saying, in the last days it shall come to pass," etc. This was fulfilled up- ' 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 81 
 
 on the day of Pentecost; this prophecy of Joel. , Dr. Adam Clark and Goodwin 
 both take this view; and many others. of the learne(^ orthodox oommeBtators, 
 and it shows candor and.honesty upon their part. So away goes his argument on 
 Joel. 
 
 "Holy men of old/' says my brother, "spake as they were moved upon by 
 the Holy Gho^t," in support of the view he takes of the ten tings. I have ex- 
 plained, as you will see by reading Daniel, second chapter, in connection ,with 
 the seventh chapter, that the kingdom of , heaven was to be set up during the 
 time of the fouf kings, and that this is wjiat is meant by the declaration, "In 
 the days of these kings." By reading those parallels closely, you will see that 
 this is the true meaning. '- 
 
 My brother says ^b gospet'Jias not been preached in all the world. I have 
 noticed this before, twice. Calls our attention to the first chapter of second 
 Thessalonians, seventh verse : 
 
 ' "And to you who are troublM, rest with us When the Lord Jesus shall he revealed from 
 heaven with his mighty angels." . ■ ■ 
 
 We see this is the^same revelation, the same coming, which I have shown 
 joii is confined to the natural lifetime of those who heard him. The same com- 
 ing ■with his angels, that is to take place during that generation, to take ven- 
 geance upon the ungodly. He calls our attention to the second chapter : 
 
 "Now we bfeseeoh yon, brethren, by the coming of our Lord' Jesus Christ, and "by our 
 gathering togethpr'unto him, that ye bo not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,, neither 
 by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter asifrom us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." 
 
 The Diagl'ott says, "as the day of the Lord was present." It, was sixteen 
 years off, this great judgment spoken pf as much as sixteen or eighteen years off. 
 There would; be great propriety in his saying, be not soon shaken, in mind, 
 neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the 
 Lord was present;" It was not present fpr sixteen or eighteen years yet. 
 
 I am now^eady to resume my affirmative arguments. This generation : 
 
 '■■He genea ante, this generation. Notwithstanding tihe dissent of some, this phrase can 
 only mean this very generation, the raoe of men living." — ^Blpomfield's Greek Testament, with 
 English notes. 
 
 "Our Lord himself limits the interval within which Jerusalem shall be destroyed, and. his 
 coming take place, to that same generation, 'Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not 
 pass away, till all these things be fulfilled.' The language here, is plain, definite and express; 
 it can not be misunderstood, nor perverted." — From Dr. Robinson, quoted .by Crosby, page 
 142. 
 
 " 'This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be fulfilled.' — Matt. 24:34. All 
 who are at present living, shall not be dead whein this shall come to pass. There are some 
 at this day living, who shall be witnesses of the evils I have foretold shall befall the Jews. 
 The men of this generation, the men now living." — Cruden's Concordance. 
 
 Thus we might go on and multiply testimony. 
 
 "Precisely parallel to this verse is chapter 23:36, 'Verily I say unto you, ail these things 
 shall come upon this generation;' and by 'these things' of that verse were plainly meant the 
 destruction of the city and state. , And this parallelism, it might be rernarked by the way, goes 
 to show the incorrectness of the interpretation which some have adopted, by which the word 
 generation is made to signify race. Were it to signify race, what race is indicated? It might 
 mean the human race, or the Jewish race, or the Christian, as Dr. Clark supposes; and thus 
 we are thrown into a state of perfect vagueness. But this rendering of the word has met 
 with but little favor among scholars." — Dr. D. D. Whedon, Com., Matthew 24: 34. 
 
 Those are all the testimonies or the affirmative arguments, except in rela- 
 tion to Christ's personal coming at the end of his reign, his spiritual reign, 
 which is not connected with the judgment- 
 
 Acts 1 : 9-11. — "And when he had spoken these things,' while they beheld, he was taken 
 up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward 
 heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Te 
 
82 FORSCUTT AND SHmiTS IHSOUSSION. 
 
 men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is talcen up fronn 
 you into heaven, shall so come in lilce manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." 
 
 My brother has advanced the idea that this coming was at the end of the 
 world, or at the end of his reign. I shall first proceedto notice 1 Cor. 15 : 24 : 
 
 "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom .to God, even the 
 Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power." 
 
 This is the work to be done at the end of Messiah's reign. He is to deliver 
 up the kingdom to God, even the Father, at the; time of his^ personal coming, 
 which is at the end of his reign. Not a word nor a syllable said about judgment. 
 We read on in 1 Corinthians 15 : 21 : 
 
 "Behold, I show you a mystery, we shaU not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a 
 moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the 
 dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [Shall have been raised, is the 
 correct translation.] I'or this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put 
 on immortality." 
 
 This is to be in the future, at the end of Messiah's reign, as I before showed 
 you. With this we pass to 1 Thess. 14 : 13. Notice this parallel, my brother ; 
 
 "For if we beUeve that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus 
 win God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which 
 are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep. 
 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, 
 and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 
 
 This is the order of that personal coming; and this personal coming is to 
 take place at the end of Messiah's reign, when he shall have subdued all things 
 unto himself, when the last enemy, death, shall have been destroyed. 
 
 "Then we which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the 
 clouds, to meet the lord in the air; and so shjill we ever be witii the Lord." 
 
 Then the living that remain upon the earth, are to be changed, to undergo 
 a change equivalent to death, and are to be caught up with the Lord in the air. 
 This is to be at the end of his reign, when he is to "deliver up the kingdom to 
 God, even the Father, that he may be all in all; for he must reign till he hath 
 put all enemies under his feet, and the last enemy that is to be destroyed is 
 death." The argument is complete. There is not a single syllable, not a word 
 said about judgment in connection with that personal coming, at the end of Mes- 
 siah's reign. But the other coming, his spiritual coming, his coming in power 
 and glory, his coming in clouds, to reward mankind according to their works, I 
 have shown you was to take place during the generation in which Jesus lived. 
 I have shown you that Jesus said some who were then living should not taste of 
 death, until they saw the "Son of man coming in his kingdom," to reward man- 
 kind according to their works ; that this coming did take place at what is called 
 the end of the world. Matthew 23 : 34, 35, 36 : 
 
 "Wherefore, behold, I send you prophets and wise men. * » * Verily I say unto you, 
 All these things shall come upon this generation." 
 
 Mark it, "Upon this generation," which evidently meant the generation 
 then living; the persons who heard Jesus make this declaration. Mark 13. 
 You remember I introduced from the twenty-fourth to the thirtieth verses, and 
 I maintained that was figurative. I want to give you Clark's view upon this. 
 
 Elder Shinu did not finish his quotation, as the call of Time was heard, 
 and he yielded the floor. 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 83 
 
 To Elder Shian's seventh argument Elder Forscutt replied : 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I am charged with affirming in the fore part of this discussion, that judg- 
 ment is inflicted in this life, and yet that there will be a future judgment. This 
 has been repeated three times and I have not noticed it; but now I think it due 
 to myself that I should notice it. In noticing it, I am aware that I am noticing 
 it before those who heard just what I did say, and I am satisfied that both they 
 and the record of the reporters will deny that I made any such statement. The 
 statement that I made was this, and the only statement I made, and the only 
 reference I made to it was supportive of the idea I sought to impress upon you 
 by giving an illustration from our experiences, and the experiences of others, 
 that "if a man doeth wrong, his own conscience condemneth him." That j udg- 
 ment is now, because his conscience condemns him now; but that is not the 
 judgment that is to coifie, when the Judge shall sit, and the books shall be open- 
 ed. I wish this correction to stand, and if it be necessary to examine the rec- 
 ord, it is before us in phonography, I am pleased to say. 
 
 Mr. Shinn. Do I understand you to say that men were not judged in this 
 life, only by their consciences ? 
 
 Mr. Forscutt. Judgments came upon men and nations at times, which 
 I have before said may be called temporal judgments. 
 
 We are referred by the gentleman, in sup'port of the theory that John died, 
 to Eusebius. He has gone back riow fifteen hundred years further, and pro- 
 duced us a new witness. Eusebius did not live till the third and wrote in the 
 fourth century. This the congregation may not all be aware of. Now of what 
 value is Eusebius as a witness that John died ? He did not live until nearly 
 two hundred years after John wrote. This is the heaviest witness we have on 
 this question, and he did not live until nearly two hundred years after the event 
 about which he is called to testify had transpired, if it transpired at all. The 
 brother is anxious to prove that John died, because some then living were to 
 live till the kingdom should come with power ; and if all then living are now 
 dead, the coming of the kingdom is in the past. He tells us that Jesus did not 
 say that John should not die; but he might as well^ave said so, brother, as to 
 have said to Peter, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" 
 
 In relation to the Savior's testimony, "There be some standing here, which 
 shall not taste death," &c., the gentleman tells us, that the word some does not 
 mean one; but more than one. I will have to go back to my dictionary, I 
 early learned that the word some was indefinite, applying to one or more ; but I 
 have something new to learn in regard to this, if this new interpretation be cor- 
 rect. I have no dictionary here. 
 
 The brother informs us that in the very same sense as "all the world," and "all 
 baptized," in the passages I referred to, apply to "all the world" and "all baptized ;" 
 so does the word all in the passage before presented by me, apply to "all nations." 
 I expected this retort, and I purpose to examine it to see whether it does ap- 
 ply in the same sense. I am glad that my brother has given me credit for the 
 honesty of my statement, respecting the gospel being preached in all the world. 
 I shall not try to take a very serious advantage of the testimony that the gospel 
 was preached in all the world. You will remember that I made the statement, 
 that the gospel was not preached in many nations. 
 
 I have at home an ancient geography, which, at the time of its publication, 
 
84 FORSaUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 in the eighteenth century, is said to have cost two hundred and fifty dollars. _ It 
 is biographical, chronological, geographical, historical, genealogical, pantalogieal, 
 and synchronistic in its wonderful comprehensiveness. It gives an account of all 
 the nations of the earth, and their history as far as possible, as well as the history 
 of every important event connected with them, embracing all lands known from 
 the Arctic to the tropical regions, after the plan of the celebrated jM. Lavisgne. 
 After a careful examination of that work, and a study of the positions of locali- 
 ties, with their ancient as well as their modern names, I am forced to the con- 
 clusion that there are many nations which I did not name to-day at all, of whom 
 the people living in the days of the apostles had no knowledge whatever. They 
 and their countries have been since discovered ; and their manners and customs 
 indicate, unmistakably, that the story of the gospel had never been told among 
 them, had never reached them at the time of their discovery. When the apos- 
 tle spoke of preaching the gospel in all the world, it was in all the parts then 
 known. 
 
 Now in regard to this "all nations." We have examined that so much al- 
 ready that the friends perhaps will get tired of it; but they must remember, 
 that my brother told me last night that he would give me an argument that I 
 could work on a whole day; so you must expect me to expend a little extra time 
 upon it. 
 
 You will remember, I trust, the statement I made concerning "all nations 
 being gathered together." This statement is one of positive prophecy, "And this 
 gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all 
 nations, and then shall the end come." I submit the thought in connection with 
 this statement, that if there were nations of the earth then undiscovered, if there 
 were nations then unknown, the gospel certainly was not preached in undiscover- 
 ed and unknown nations; but at the time when the end is to come, the gospel 
 is to have been preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations, that 
 they may be brought to trial, and proven worthy or unworthy of the blessing or 
 condemnation then to be given. 
 
 The brother, in noticing the argument in regard to all nations being gath- 
 ered before him, and endeavoring to prove it was at the destruction of Jerusa- 
 lem, quotes for us a prophecy of Zechariah in regard to all nations being gather- 
 ed to Jerusalem to battle. A good quotation. 
 
 The statement in the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew, however, is very 
 clear, and very distinct from this, "When the Son of man shall come in his 
 glory, and all the holy angels with him ;" not the Roman legions; not the wicked 
 heathen; not heathen idolaters, but "all the holy angels with him, he shall 
 sit upon the throne of his glory, and before him shall be gathered all nations, 
 and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep 
 from the goats." The result of this judgment, we learn, is to bring to them 
 upon his right hand the blessing described in the following words, "Come ye 
 blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundations 
 of the world." While to those who have not done good deeds, will come the 
 damnatory clause, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire." This 
 sounds very much like the judgment decree, when all the nations are to be 
 gathered before him, and he who is found worthy is to inherit the kingdom, while 
 he who is unworthy is to depart into everlasting fire. 
 
 Either the judgment did very gross injustice, as the brother has told you 
 our view of the judgment would do, or else the gathering at Jerusalem was not 
 the gathering here spoken of. 
 
 In regard to Joel, the brother has quoted what Peter said on the day of 
 Pentecost, and then adds. Away goes his argument on Joel. Well we will see 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 85 
 
 whether it goes away or not. I thank my brother for calling attention to it, fox 
 I think I can make it a little stronger now. 
 
 The statement is made that the Spirit was received by the apostles, and that 
 they were enabled to preach to other nations and people who had come to Jeru- 
 salem. These tongues which they spake they had not learned ; for it was by the 
 power of Grod they were enabled to speak them. Some supposed they were 
 drunken. "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said, 
 Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, 
 and hearken to my words, for these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is 
 but the third hour of the day." Peter understood this matter. Sir, as I do. 
 Hear him : 
 
 "This is (hat which was spoken by the prophet Joel, And it shall come to pass in the 
 last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your 
 daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream 
 dreams : and on my servants and on my handmaidens, I will pour out in those days of my 
 Spirit; and they shall prophesy." 
 
 We will pass all the rest of the declarations to notice the eliptical one with 
 which it is introduced, *'This is that." That what. Sir!" Here we have some- 
 thing indicated, but not clearly pointed out; an elipsis unsupplied. "This is that 
 which was spoken by the prophet Joel." What was spoken of by the prophet 
 Joel ? Peter tells us, "I will pour out of my Spirit." Does that supply the 
 elipsis ? Yes, sir. "This is that" Spirit "which was spoken" of "by the proph- 
 et Joel." It is not drunkenness that affects these; but it is that Spirit prophe- 
 cied of. 
 
 But does our friend take the usual position that Joel's prophecy -wasjulfill- 
 ed on the day of Pentecost? If you maintain it was. Sir, you will find yourself 
 in a very sorry position. Joel gave the prophesy; and if Peter quotes it cor- 
 rectly, it was that Spirit spoken of by Joel, that was received on the day of 
 Pentecost, which God, by the prophet Joel, had promised to pour out. Let us 
 go back if you please to Joel, second chapter, twenty-eighth verse, and see how 
 this will fit our friend's theory, "And it shall come to pass a-i-t-e-r-w-a-r-d," 
 "afterward?" After what? We read in the context before it, that G-od before 
 then will have scattered his people among the heathen, in all the nations of the 
 earth; and also that, according to his promise, after their having been so scat- 
 tered, he will gather them. And it shall come to pass "afterward," after they 
 are gathered from their scattered condition, and restored to their own land, 
 "that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh." Was all flesh there upon the 
 day of Pentecost? To confine this prophecy to those gathered at Jerusalem, Ms 
 a very strange kind of rendering of the phrase, "all flesh;" a very poor conceA- 
 tion of God pouring out his Spirit upon all flesh ! 
 
 But, again, "And your sons and your daughters shall .prophesy." Yes, sir; 
 "prophesy." "Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy. Your old men 
 shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions." Pray tell us. Sir, if 
 tJiis was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. WJio were the old men who dreamed 
 dreams on the day of Pentecost? Who were they who had these dreams while 
 they were standing or sitting there, "wide awake," listening to Peter. Strange 
 way of dreaming. Sir, is this wide awake style ! Who were the young men who 
 saw visions on that day? Is there a record of such a thing as either a dream or 
 a vision on the day of Pentecost ? No, sir, there is not. 
 
 The servants and the handmaids of Israel were to have the Spirit poured 
 out upon them, so that they should prophecy; did any of them so prophesy on 
 that day? The only statement we have on record as having been made that 
 day, of even the nature of a prophecy, is the statement made in the sermon of 
 Peter, given by inspiration, that should they observe to do that which he com- 
 
86 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 manded them, they should receive the remission of sins, and the gift of the 
 Holy Ghost. Peter was right. It was that Spirit promised through. Joel; but 
 not the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel. Joel's prophecy of spiritual gifts can 
 not be fulfilled until Israel are gathered to their own land again, and established 
 in the home of their fathers ; for these gifts are to be poured out "AFTER- 
 WARD," and ON ALL FLESH. 
 
 The brother has presented in his last speech, quite an array of commentators' 
 comments on the various passages of Scripture that have been quoted in this de- 
 bate, or on some of them at least. Once more I call his attention to the article 
 of debate. Let us read it: — "Resolved that the commentators teach that the 
 coming of Christ to judge the world, is now past." Is that the question, Sir ? 
 No, Sir. But, "Resolved that the BIBLE teaches that the coming of Christ to 
 judge the world, is now past." It does not matter what the opinion of this man 
 is, or that man ; men's views are not involved in this question at all. The ques- 
 tion, and the only question is, what the Bible teaches. I do not care what the 
 opinions of men are in regayd to the matter, nor does this audience; we only 
 want to know what the Bible teaches, and we are here to show what it does 
 teach in regard to it. 
 
 The Elder says that the kingdom spoken of by Daniel, which was to be es- 
 tablished in the days of "these kings," was to be established in the days of the 
 four kings. I do not see where he gathers this idea from. As set forth in 
 Daniel 7 : 7, the fourth beast (or kingdom) is shown to be diverse from all the 
 others. We are told by the prophet that this beast shall devour and break in 
 pieces. This beast had ten horns, and the prophet writes, 8th verse : 
 
 "I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another little horn, be- 
 fore whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots ; and behold, in this 
 horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." 
 
 Daniel was unable to understand the matter, but had great anxiety to learn 
 about the fourth beast, and in answer to his enquiry; the following interpreta- 
 tion was given in the vision : 
 
 "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the Saints of the Most 
 High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the kingdom. And he said, The fourth 
 beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and 
 shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten 
 horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and anothef shall rise after them; 
 and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak 
 gr/at words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think 
 tqf change times and laws : and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and 
 tjte dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion to 
 consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness 
 of the kingdom under the .whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints oE the Most 
 High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominion shall serve and obey him." 
 
 It would seem to be sufficiently clear that the kingdom was not to arise in 
 the time of the fourth beast; but in the time of the ten kings; (24i;.) to arise 
 after the beast, yet out from him, and after the eleventh horn, {not a king, but 
 diverse from the ten who are called kings) shall have subdued three of the kings, 
 and shall have reigned,— as you argue. Sir, for a few years, or until the destruc- 
 tion of Jerusalem, a period of six hundred and twenty-five years ? No, Sir • but 
 until a time and times and the dividing of times. The Jewish year is said to 
 consist of three hundred and sixty days; a time represents one day, one day, a 
 year; "time" therefore represents a year, "times" plural, two or more years, di- 
 viding of time, half a year. Add time, one year, and times, two years, to the di- 
 viding of time, half a year, and we have three and a half years; multiply by 
 three years and a half, the number, 360, the number of days for each year, and 
 we have the number 1260, 1260 days, and according to the testimony of the 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 87 
 
 angel to Daniel, in 10 : 13, (wLen the hindrances had been twenty-one years, he 
 calls it twenty-one days), we reckon one day for a year, and we have 1260 years 
 as the period during which that power should exercise dominion over all the 
 earth. 
 
 It was to be after this power should arise and have ruled 1260 years, and 
 that would not arise till after these kings came into authority, further yet then 
 than even now, yet in the very days of these kings or governments, the little 
 horn will perish, and the kingdom of heaven will be set up. 
 
 In the second chapter of Daniel we read of a great image that was present- 
 ed in dream to king Nebuchadnezzar, and to Daniel. The image had two 
 legs, and two feet, and on the feet ten toes. From the interpretation given by 
 Daniel, we learn that the legs represented the fourth power, which we recognize 
 as the Roman power. The divisions of the Roman empire commenced in about 
 the year 356, and since the time when the Roman empire commenced to be di- 
 vided, these toes have been forming on the image ; gradually forming, we notice 
 them as we view one kingdom after another split off from the Empire. Thus 
 we see that as the Roman power is represented by Daniel's fourth beast and the 
 legs and feet of Nebuchadnezzar's image, so the ten kingdoms are represented 
 alike by the ten horns on the beast, and the ten toes of the image. 
 
 That part of the prophecy based on Daniel's vision, which speaks of anoth- 
 er little horn arising, before whom three of the ten were plucked up by the 
 roots, was fulfilled, without doubt, in my mind, when the Pope obtained temporal 
 power, when he subdued three kings. He was a temporal prince, as well as a 
 spiritual supervisor. All the parts of the two visions synchronize; but to 
 Daniel's vision, he being a prophet, there was added the representation of an 
 -ecclesiasticism, which had no correlevant in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. He was 
 a king; and to him was shown only political matters, and the setting up of the 
 Great Kmgdom, of Christ — the universal kingdom, yet to be established, whose 
 king shall reign in righteousness, and judge with equity. 
 
 The dream of Nebuchadnezzar was had B.C. 603, and his was the first of the 
 four empires, and he the head of gold; 2d, the Modes and Persians took Baby- 
 lon B.C. 538, and under Cyrus represented the breast and arms of silver; 3d, 
 the Macedonian or Grecian empire, established by Alexander the Great invading 
 Persia B. C. 335 j represented the belly and thighs of brass; 4th, the Romans 
 reduced Greece into a Roman province, naming it Achaia B. C. 146, Cappadooia 
 in 31, Egypt in 30, and Augustus Ceseser was made emperor of Rome 28 B. C, 
 thus establishing the Roman Empire, represented by the legs of the image of 
 iron, and the feet, part of iron and part of clay. If, Sir, this fourth empire was 
 to possess its dominions for time, times, and dividing of time, add to 28 B. C. 
 the period of 1260 years, and where. Sir, is your theory of the coming of Christ 
 over eighteen hundred years ago, at the taking of Jerusalem. Even if your own 
 strange theory were true, that the kingdom had to be set up when the Roman 
 empire was a unit, instead of when divided into ten, inasmuch as there had to 
 be 1260 years of occupancy before the kingdom is possessed by the Son of man, 
 it could not have been then set up. But, Sir, your theory is not true, there had 
 first to be the division of the Roman power into ten governments; secondly, an- 
 other power had to possess three of these ten; and thirdly/, this last power had 
 to occupy 1260 years before that can take place; but, glorious hope ! then Com- 
 eth the end, when this mighty image shall be destroyed, the kingdom of heaven 
 fill the whole earth, and peace and righteousness flow as a river. Then, Sir, will 
 be fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 1 : 25-27, redemption to Zion, and restoration 
 ■of the seats of the judges of Israel. 
 
 The brother repeats to us again, that Christ will come at the end of his 
 
88 FORSOUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 mediatorial or spiritual r^ign. He says the dead in Christ will then have been 
 raised. He refers to 1 Cor. 15 : 51 : 
 
 "Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but 'we shall all be changed." 
 I ought to read the previous verse, and see how it agrees with the theory 
 of the kingdom being now inherited by us. I think I will do this. 
 
 "Now this, I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; 
 neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." 
 
 If this be true, the kingdom of God, as a kingdom, is not established yet, 
 at least we are not members of it; we are yet flesh _and Wood. 
 
 The question may arise in the minds of some, How shall we obtain salva- 
 tion, if flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God? I reply, that the 
 promise of inheritance refers yet to the future. We look for it. We look for 
 the time to come, when, "at his appearing and kingdom," this mortal shall put 
 on immortality, and we be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God. 
 
 "Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed,^ in a 
 moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trump shall sound and the 
 dead shall be raised, [not shaU have been raised], incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For 
 this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." — 1 Cor-. 
 15:51-53. 
 
 We understand from this testimony, that there will be a time when Jesus 
 will come to establish his kingdom, and that this time of the coming of Jesus 
 will be accompanied by the raising of the righteous dead. 
 
 The brother quoted for us 1 Thess. 4 : 14^17. We have read this before: 
 
 "If we believe, [says he] that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep 
 in Jesus, will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the lord, that 
 we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall' not prevent them which 
 are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of 
 the archangel, and with the trumji of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 
 
 I pass this now and leave it to be considered under the head of the resur- 
 rection. 
 
 We will notice, however, whether there is to be a judgment connected with 
 the coming of Christ. In the fifth chapter of first Thessalonians, second verse, 
 I read : 
 
 "For yourselves know perfectly, that tlie day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night'. 
 [That is, when unlocked for, suddenly.] For when they shall say peace and safety, then sud- 
 den destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child, and th^ shaU not escape. 
 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." 
 
 And in connection with this again we quote : 
 
 "And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from 
 heaven, with his mighty angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance on thein that know not Gqd^. 
 and dbeijnot the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." 
 
 Will there be no judgment then ? Will not this be a judgment day? But, 
 again, as to the time : 
 
 "Let no man deceive you by any means : for tlmt day shaU not come, except there come a- 
 faUing away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the Son of Perdition." — 2 Thess. 2 : 3. 
 
 As much as to say, it shall not come unless this power referred to shall first 
 obtain ascendancy; unless this man of sin be revealed. Do not imagine that- 
 that day is close at hand, this power must arise first. 
 
 _ la.— "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth will let, 
 until he be taken out of the way. 8v. — And tlien shall that wicked be revealed, whom the' 
 ZordshaU consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with tlie iDrifiitness of his 
 coming." ° 
 
 We all see clearly that there is, or seems to be, some judgment, and some 
 execution of that judgment too. Yes, Sir, these testimonies of Scripture show 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 89 
 
 plainly that there will be a judgment in connection with this coming. Accord- 
 ing to the testimony of Paul, those who have not obeyed the goepel, shall be 
 punished ; for that which is not in accordance with, the will of the Father, 
 Christ will never save. Those who have worked iniquity, who have practiced 
 abominations, who have done contrary to the revelation of God unto them, — they 
 will be consumed; they will be destroyed by the brightness of the coming of the 
 Lord Jesus Christ. 
 
 We also notice again in connection with the testimony that has been pre- 
 sented to us from the first chapter of Acts, verses six to eight, that the time of 
 the restitution was future, and what do we learn respecting it here ? Is it not 
 that the disciples wanted to know whether Jesus would at that time restore the 
 kingdom to Israel? What a favorable opportunity to undeceive them, if they 
 were deceived, as Elder Shinn argues they were, by teaching them that God did 
 not intend to establish a literal kingdom at all. But he did not undeceive them, 
 any more than he has undeceived me; on the contrary, instead of correcting 
 their views, he confirmed them by saying : 
 
 "It is not for you to lcA)w the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put iq hia own 
 power. But ye shad receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be 
 witnesses unto me, both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in. Samaria, and the uttermost 
 part of the earth." 
 
 We must now discover, as a correlate to this, what happened when the 
 Holy Ghost had come upon them. Peter says, speaking of Jesus, Acts 3 : 21 : 
 
 "Whom the heaven must receive, until the times of restitution of all things which God 
 hath spoken by the mouths of all his holy prophets since the world began." 
 
 How is this to be understood ? Is Jesus to remain there until the times of 
 restitution? Were these the "times of restitution of all things which God hath 
 spoken by * * all his prophets ;" a time of restitution that when desolation 
 came on Israel ! If I understand this word correctly, to restore is to bring back 
 that which has been lost, not to destroy that which exists. 
 
 Peter says the heavens must receive or retain Jesus, until the times of the 
 restitution spoken of by all the holy prophets, such as Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, 
 Joel, who with many others speak of these things of restitution as the times 
 when Israel shall be restored to their own land. All the prophets who speak on 
 this subject, as also the apostles, speak of it as the restoration unto the children 
 of Israel of the kingdom God had promised to ]>avid, when he said that there 
 should "never be a man wanting to sit upon his throne." The kingdom had 
 been taken from Israel; they were oppressed by their enemies. But the proph- 
 ets had declared that the Lord should "establish the throne of David;" should 
 "order and establish it with justice and with judgment " and that he of whom the 
 prophets witnessed should be "king over all the earth." Even the heathen na- 
 tions are to bow down before him, when he comes to reign as king of Kings and 
 Lord of lords ; and all nations and peoples are to submit to his decrees, and join 
 join in one loud anthem of praise to his name. 
 
 The brother will notice that these and following events that are to trans- 
 pire, are very successive in the method of their transpiration. Jesus is to come, 
 and in connection with this, the resurrection of the dead is to take place. The 
 dead in Christ are to be raised first. Those that died in Christ are to be raised 
 in Christ, and live and reign with him a thousand years. During that thousand 
 years' reign, they are to be under his direct and personal instruction. After the 
 thousand years' reign shall have passed away, then will come the final overthrow 
 of all nations; then shall the end come. During this time "the law shall go forth 
 from Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." Jesus shall occupy the 
 
:90 FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 ithrone of his father David. Jesus shall send forth his word, and there shall 
 then come forth from Zion the law to govern the whole earth. 
 
 The brother has quoted the testimony of Paul, "Eathin these last days," 
 >eto. This was very correct language, from Paul's standpoint. They were the 
 last days to him, the same as these are the last days to us, or as this is the last 
 day of the world, and until to-morrow comes. "In the last days," "In these last 
 days;" the first refers to the last days of man's existence before the end; the 
 second expresses the time of man's experience in the earth whenever spoken. 
 The "these last days" and "these last times" of the apostle Paul referred to the. 
 time in which he lived; but the phrase, "the last days" in his prophecy referred 
 to the future. 
 
 Elder Forscutt's time having expired, he closed his remarks. 
 
 Elder Shinn enters his eighth argument. 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I appear before you figain to continue our friendly discussion. If I have 
 misrepresented my brother, in regard to hisViews upon the subject of judgment, 
 I have certainly not done it intentionally. He corrects himself, however, or 
 corrects some one, and says, that men are only judged then by their consciences. 
 Now I beg leave to differ with my brother in regard to that. I call the atten- 
 tion of my brother to Genesis 15 : 13, 14. We will see if this is a judgment of 
 conscience. 
 
 "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger In a land 
 that is not theirs, and they shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 
 and also that nation will 1 judge." 
 
 Again, Ezekiel 21 : 28-30 : 
 
 "And thou, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God concerning the Am- 
 monites, and concerning their reproach; even say thou, the sword is drawn; for the slaughter 
 it is furbished, to consume because of the glittering. * * * I will yi«^e thee in the place 
 where thou wast created, in the land of thy naiiviiy." 
 
 I want to know if that is not more than a judgment of conscience. The 
 difficulty with my brother seems to be this. He has acknowledged a judgment 
 in this life, and has also declared that he did not believe in a rejudgment. 
 
 Again I press this question upon my brother. Will they be rejudged ? I 
 do maintain you have not answered that question positively. Again the 
 brother turns to Matthew 25 : 31, 32, and says it has not been fulfilled, because 
 all nations were not gathered together to battle against Jerusalem, if I under- 
 stand my brother. 
 
 In the sense, I take the position, that all nations were to be gathered to- 
 gether, is precisely the sense in which the Bible allows it to be taken. He sets 
 it forth as follows, "Then shall they deliver youjup to be afflicted," etc. "And 
 this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto 
 all nations, and then shall the end come." Again, "For I will gather all nations 
 against Jerusalem to battle. The city shall be taken, the hoHses rifled," etc. 
 Precisely in the same sense in which it is used intone instance, I claim it is used 
 in the other. Why should it, my brother, mean only a few in one instance, and 
 all mankind in the other ? A little clear criticism upon that would not be amiss. 
 My brother still says John is still living. All I have to say in regard to that is 
 to show him to me. Where is he ? Is he up north ? I will give all my old 
 boots and shoes if you will bring him on. I want to see him. All my folks 
 want to see him. I expect all would like to see him. If he is here, it msly be 
 ithe Masons know something about him. Probably they can assist you some. 
 
FORSGUTT AND SHINITS DISCUSSION. 91 
 
 They are a skillful community, and know a good deal about such things. Per- 
 haps they can bring him on. I want to see him, and others want to see him. 
 
 My brother runs to Acts 2 : 16, 17, then to Joel. Well now I want to 
 read you first what Joel said. Joel 2 : 28, "And it shall come to pass afterward, 
 that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh." Before what we are going to 
 read. "Your sons and yoiir daughters shall prophesy." The pouring out of his 
 Spirit upon all flesh, is that which is to come to pass afterward. "Your old men 
 shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions." The pouring out of 
 the Spirit was that which was to come in afterward. Now Peter upon the day 
 of Pentecost said, "For these are not drunken as ye suppose, seeing it is but the 
 third hour of the day." As I understand it, there was not time to get drunk 
 before that hour of the day, nine o'clock. The pouring of the Spirit, enabling 
 them to speak in all the languages of the earth. "This is that which was spoken 
 of by the prophet Joel, saying, in the last days I will pour out of my Spirit." 
 
 Let it mean spirit, brother, or what it may, "this is that which was spoken 
 by the prophet Joel, sajing, in the last days I will pour out of my Spirit upon 
 all flesh." The last days were eighteen hundred years, and over, ago. He says 
 he cares nothing for men's opinions. If we have not respect for other's opinions, 
 how can we expect them to have respect for us ? There is the point. When I 
 have the opinion of an honest man upon a passage of Scripture, and it accords 
 with mine, reason and honesty compel me to receive it. He may be a believer in 
 endless punishment; in a special day of judgment beyond this life; yet his view 
 upon this passage of Scripture, agreeing with mine, shows candor and honesty 
 upon their part. 
 
 "In the days of these kings." I want to go back to Daniel, and read brief- 
 ly from his second chapter. The kingdom was to commence, you remember, in 
 the days of the four kings. That was my position. I read from Daniel to prove 
 it. Dan. 2 : 38 : 
 
 "Thou, king, aaweat, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness 
 was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. This image's head was 
 of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thiglis of brass, his legs of iron, 
 his feet part of iron and part of clay." 
 
 Daniel goes on and gives the interpretation of these different parts of the 
 image, and says that four kings are represented. Then that in the days of these 
 kings the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom. Now, brother, I can not let 
 you speculate with the days, for in the days of these four kings the kingdom was 
 to be set up. I told you my view was that the feet being composed of hetero- 
 genous materials, represented the divisions of the Eoman empire, and the cause 
 of its fall; and that the kingdom was to be set up in "the days of these [four] 
 kings." 
 
 First Corinthians, fifteenth chapter, I want to notice one thing in my re- 
 view. I will call your attention to it in Thessalonians now. The brother read 
 first Thessalonians, fourth chapter, "Now I say unto you by the word of the 
 Lord," etc. The brother read that, and read it precisely in connection with 
 second Thessalonians, where his coming in judgment is spoken of to reward man- 
 kind. I do not think that is a very honorable way of conducting controversy. 
 He is speaking of two difierent comings. One to judgment, the other at the 
 end of his reign. The brother read them and blended them, so as to produce 
 the impression that they were both one coming. But that is not correct, broth- 
 er. I have shQwn you that one of these comings is to reward mankind accord- 
 ing to their works, and the other at the end of his reign. The apostle besought 
 them that they should not be soon shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither 
 by spirit nor by letter, as that the day of Christ or the Lord was present. It 
 
92 FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 was sixteen years off yet. But at the other coming which I have proven, they 
 that live and remain upon the earth, are to be caught up to meet the Lord, but 
 not a single syllable or word about judgment in connection with it-_ _ 
 
 I now review the course of argument I have followed in this discussion. 
 First, I claimed that the day of judgment began with and is the day of Christ's 
 mediatorial reign. It will end when that reign is finished, and the kingdom 
 delivered up to Grod the Father. It is to result in the destruction of every evil, 
 and the purification of all souls. I then gave, if you remember, the Bible defini- 
 tion of the word judgment, showing that it was used descriptive of punishment, 
 of government, etc. In my first argument I showed that mankind were judged- 
 in the earth, and that God's judgment seat was in the earth. To prove this 
 I introduced various passages of Scripture. 
 
 Gen. 15 : 13, 14. — "And lie said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a 
 stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them fouf 
 hundred years; and also that nation whom they shall serve, will 1 judge: and afterward shall 
 they come out with great substance." 
 
 "I saw under the sun the place of judgment," etc. "His judgments are in 
 all the earth." "Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth; much 
 more the wicked and the sinner," etc. Having introduced an array of Scripture 
 evidences, which the report will show, clearly showing that God judges in the 
 earth. 
 
 I remarked, that God would never have changed his judgment seat from, 
 the earth, without having first notified his children of the fact, which he has never 
 done; but on the contrary, his Son comes, the kingdom of heaven is among men, 
 the kingdom of heaven is established among men. Jesus is the judge ; when 
 the kingdom is established, Jesus is established in his reign as judge. That the 
 Father no longer judgeth any man, but has committed all judgment to his Son, 
 and his Son's testimony is "Now is the judgment of this world," over eighteen 
 hundred years ago. And that Jesus said, "For judgment am I come into this 
 world." With this I introduced an argument in this connection. 
 
 My friends, he was ready to judge mankind over eighteen hundred years 
 ago. He was to "judge the quick and the dead, at his appearing and kingdom." 
 The argument was that Christ became judge when he received his kingdom. 
 
 Argument four, that Christ's coming in glory, in power, with his angels, to 
 reward mankind according to their works, took place during the natural lifetime 
 of some of those who heard him speak. Under this head I referred you to 
 Matthew 25 : 31-46 ; also Matthew 16 : 27, 28, which I read again : 
 
 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then- he 
 shall reward every man according to his work. Verily I say unto you, There be some stand- 
 ing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." 
 
 The only way that my brother has to avoid this strong argument, is to stan4 
 up before this congregation, here, to have them believe that John is still liviDg 
 in the fiesh. Again I quote the parallel passages in this connection. Mark 
 8:38: 
 
 ""Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and my words, in this adulterous and sin- 
 ful generation, of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of 
 his Father, with the holy angels." 
 
 Now, when should that coming take place in the glory of his Father, with 
 the holy angels? Mark 9 : 1. 
 
 "And he said unte them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some standing here, which 
 shall not taste of det/th, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." 
 
 The brother says he will have to go back to his dictionary to learn that 
 some means more than one. The brother certainly knows that in the sense in 
 which it is used here, that it means more than one. "Verily I say unto you, 
 
FORSOUTT AND SEINN'S DISCUSSION. 93 
 
 there be some standing here." A collection it certainly means here, my brother, 
 more than one; yet I presume my brother -will not undertal^e to prove that more 
 than one of those who heard Jesus speak is now living. If John is living now 
 we all want to see him. I will give all my old boots and shoes to see him. 
 Bring him forward, and I have no more to say on the subject. That is all you 
 have to do. If you are not able to do that, we shall say that your proposition 
 is lost in this discussion. We have now reviewed our fourth argument; namely, 
 that Christ's coming in glory and power, with his angels, to reward mankittd, 
 was to take place during the natural lifetime of spme of those who heard him 
 speak. I also introduced the testimony of some learned authors, showing that 
 ■his coming was past. 
 
 Argument fivel Spoke of the difficulty of learned orthodox divines, in find- 
 ing a separating place between the twenty-fourth and twenty-fifth chapters of 
 Matthew. It is perfectly amusing to see the discussion of orthodox critics upon 
 this point. I claimed that they were one continued discourse of Jesus to his 
 disciples, relative to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the Jewish order of 
 things; the destruction of the temple. Then I spoke in regard to the world, 
 you remember. As a proof, you remember, I showed you that the gospel was 
 to be preached in all the world, and then the end was to come. — Matthew 24. 
 I showed from CoUossians 1 : 5, 6, that the gospel had come into "all the world." 
 
 Col. 1: 23. — "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away 
 frofn the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, arid which was preached to every creature 
 under lieaven," etc. • 
 
 My brother has acknowledged in this discussion, that as soon as thfi gospel 
 should be preached to every nation, the end should come. The apostle testifies 
 that it has been preached in "all the world," to every nation under heaven. The 
 sense in which the apostle used it, I use it, my brother, in this discussion. The 
 reference in this discussion is to King James' translation. The references I 
 have given you will for ever stand out clear and conclusive, that the gospel was 
 ■preached in all the world, to all the nations ' of the earth. Keferred you to 
 ■Rev. 1:7. i 
 
 Sixth argument. His coming at a time of great trouble. 
 
 My seventh. His coming was near at hand over eighteen hundred years 
 
 ago. 
 
 Eev. 22 : 12. — "And, behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me to give every 
 man according as his works shall be." 
 
 Rev. 1 : 3. — "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, 
 and keep those things which are written therein : for the time is at hand." 
 
 Does that mean eighteen hundred or two thousand years yet in the future? 
 
 James 5 : 8.— "Be ye also patient; stablish your [hearts; for the coming of the Lord 
 Sraweth nigh." 
 
 Does that mean two or ten thousand years yet in the future ? Again : 
 
 "And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testifly that it is he which was 
 ordained of God to be the judge of quick and dead." 
 
 We have shown you that he became judge when he received his kingdom. 
 He received his kingdom and it has been established for centuries. 2 Timothy 
 4 : 1, and many passages we introduced in this connection. 
 
 Eighth argument. The coming of Christ was to take place in the genera- 
 tion in which he lived. You will remember I introduced several arguments up- 
 on this matter, and told my brother that I was willing to risk the entire discus- 
 sion upon the meaning of the phrase, "this generation," and that it means those 
 living at that time, the people whom Jesus addressed. Those with whom he 
 had this conversation. I read again from Matthew 24 : 29-35 : 
 
 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon 
 
94 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall 
 be shaken ; and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven ; and then shall all the- 
 tribes of the earth mourn, and they shsdl see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heavea 
 with power and great glory." 
 
 You remember that I gave you Br. Campbell's views upon this, showing that 
 it was a past event. 
 
 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather to- 
 gether the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a par- 
 able of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that 
 summer is nigh." So hkewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even 
 at the doors. Verily, I say unto you, this generation, [now mark it, 'this generation,' not (hat 
 generation to come, Hhia generation,' the generation then living], shall not pass, till all these- 
 things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away." 
 
 You remember also the parallels which I introduced in this connection. 
 Mark 13, Luke 21, Matthew 23. 
 
 First I gave the Bible view or meaning of this word generation. Matt. 1 1 
 
 "So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David, 
 until the carrying away into Babylon, fourteen generations," etc. 
 
 You then remember I introduced some authority upon this matter, showing; 
 thatjit is a fact that it means the race of men then living, and my brother did 
 not dispute this. Let me say in no instance in the New Testament, under 
 heaven, among men, will he find it means anything more or less than the men< 
 of this age, the generation of people living at the time, including a space of 
 about thirty years. This generation, the present generation, can present to iia 
 but one meaning; the men then living, the people who were alive when the 
 words were spoken. No instance in the Bible can be found where it means 
 more than the men then living. Hence Jesus meant this generation of men 
 now living shall not all pass away. Hence that generation was to see the com- 
 ing of the Son of man, and the rewards of eternal life and everlasting punish- 
 ment, my brother has spoken of, occurred or took place eighteen hundred years 
 ago. Let him who can, show to the contrary. This matter is proven plainly, 
 let those who choose doubt. In regard to this matter, I have other authority. 
 Alexander Campell, Clark, and a great many. As I have told you, I am willing, 
 to risk this discussion upon the meaning of that word "generation." 
 
 Has he came up to that mark? It remains for you to decide. My con- 
 cluding argument was, that a personal coming of the Lord was indicated andl 
 clearly taught in the Bible, at the end of his mediatorial reign. In connection 
 with that personal coming he was to deliver up the kingdom. Instead of re- 
 ceiving the kingdom and judging mankind, he was to cease to judge, was no- 
 longer to be judge of the world, but was to deliver up the kingdom to God the 
 Father. Precisely here is where my brother and I differ. I believe he delivers 
 up the kingdom to God the Father. My brother believes he will take the king- 
 dom. I introduced the following Scripture : 
 
 1 Cor. 15. — "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, 
 even the Father ; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he 
 must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet, the last enemy that shall be deatroyedi 
 is death." 
 
 The destruction of death is the universal resurrection from the dead. 
 
 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under 
 him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all 
 things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that, 
 did put all things imder him, that Sod may be all in all." 
 
 I have showed that this coming was not in connection with judgment, but 
 at the end of Messiah's reign, when he shall have accomplished his work the 
 object of his mission, to purify all souls by his truth. Not one word is said 
 
FORSCUTT AND SEINN'S DISCUSSION. 95 
 
 about judgment in connection with this coming. Judgment began with, and is 
 to end with, Messiah's reign. AH souls are to be constituted pure and holy un- 
 der Messiah's reign; then the kingdom is to be delivered up to God, the Father; 
 then the personal coming of Jesus is to take place, but not to judgment. 
 
 1 Cor. 15:51-53. — "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall 
 be chaDged, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trump shitll 
 sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this cor- 
 ruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 
 
 Friendly hearejrs, in connection with this, 1 Thess. 4 : 15. In the thir- 
 teenth verse he says he would not have them ignorant concerning those who are 
 asleep. Read this passage for yourselves. 
 
 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain 
 unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself 
 shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of ^le archangel and with the trump 
 of Grod, and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 
 
 All the dead are in Christ at this time, my brother. "Then we which are 
 alive and remain, shall be caught up in the cloud" — 
 
 Time was here called. Upon which call Elder Forscutt said to Elder 
 Shinn, "You can finish '^our speech. You can have ten minutes to finish it in 
 if you desire it." 
 
 Whereupon Elder Shinn continued — "to meet the Lord in the air." Mean- 
 ing that at this glorious time, they who are alive shall be changed, and caught 
 up to meet the Lord. "And so shall they ever be with the Lord. Wherefore 
 comfort one another with these words." This is the closing up of Messiah's 
 reign; this is the time of the resurrection of the dead. Mark you, the resurrec- 
 tion of the dead is spoken of by the apostle in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. 
 This is a parallel to that. Here the Messiah ceases to be judge, and delivers 
 up the kingdom to God, the Father, instead of taking the mediatorial thousand 
 years, and becoming judge, as my brother imagines. 
 
 This closed Elder Shinn's argument upon the first proposition ; leaving the 
 closing effort in reply to Elder Forscutt; which reply is as follows: 
 
 Gentlemen, Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 Arising before you to give the closing speech on the question that has been 
 at issue between Elder Shinn and your speaker, I have brought to my mind by 
 my brother, the entire list of arguments which he has advanced during this de- 
 bate, to sustain his position, that "the Bible teaches that the coming of Christ- 
 to judge the world, is now past." 
 
 You have heard his nine propositions, by which he purposed to prove that 
 one proposition, "The coming of Christ to judge the world, is now past." You 
 have also had repeated in brief, the arguments and passages which he introduced 
 to support this proposition. I think I may safely leave it with you whether he 
 has proven that which he has attempted to prove, "that the coming of Christ to- 
 judge the world," not the Jewish world, "is now past." 
 
 You can judge too, from the testimonies he has given, and from the argu- 
 ments he has produced, whether he has proven that the judgment of the Jews 
 in the past was the judgment of the world. 
 
 He tells us, as he did when he commenced the debate, that ho does not be- 
 lieve in a personal coming of Christ at the end of his reign to judge the world; 
 but he believes that at the end of his mediatorial reign, he will give up the gov- 
 ernment to God the Father. In answering this position or argument, whichever 
 you may be pleased to call it, I referred you to some quotations from Matthew 
 twenty-fourth and twenty-fifth chapters; first Thessalonians, fourth chapter;. 
 
96 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 second Thessalonians, first (jhapter; first, Corinthians, fifteentt chapter, as well 
 as to Peter and the prophets, and I think these furnish a sufficient amount of 
 evidence in favor of the position which I take, as negativing his proposition ; 
 namely, that instead of Christ giving up the reins to the Father when he comes 
 the second time, he will then come, as the Scriptures declare, to judge the 
 world; to execute judgment and justice. He is to come, as I quoted to you 
 from Jude, with ten thousand of his Saints, to execute yudgm^nt upon all the un- 
 godly, and frorOi qther passages, to give rewards, to reward every man according 
 to their works, to bless according to the good they shall have done, or to punish 
 according to the evil they shall have done. If I understand the Scriptures, and 
 the time and object of his coming aright, it will certainly be in the future, at 
 the time when he shall come without sin unto salvation, come as the executioner 
 of this judgment of which the prophets have written concerning him. 
 
 The brother has told us that he has proven that God would judge in the 
 earth. In proving this he has only proven the position our people are always 
 accustomed to take. So far as the place of judgment is concerned, he need never 
 have presented the first argument; and so far as I was concerned, it is lost, 
 all lost, ever^ word of it. This is what the Latter Day Saints have been preach- 
 ing ever since they were a church, and it seems our brother is a believer in the 
 theory of the Saints, as to locality; but not as to manner and time. He claims, 
 however, to have proven to you, that the judgment of Grod is executed while 
 you are in the fleSh, that the judgment is not in the future at all, and that all 
 punishment mankind receives, is the punishment for sin as executed now and 
 continuously in the flesh. Here we differ widely. 
 
 At the time when Jesus shall come and call forth the dead, I understand it 
 to teach, in the book of Revelations, that <Aey who are to come forth, will come to be 
 judged according to the things written in the books; and that then the judgment 
 shall take place, — not in heaven or hell, — but on the earth. According to this, 
 the judgment is to take place after the dead are raised, instead of its being con- 
 fined exclusively to this life, as our friend teaches. 
 
 The brother has proven to us that judgment and justice are attributes of the 
 Deity, and so far we are agreed there; but there is nothing in his argument to 
 prove that the judgment written is passed upon men in this life. On the con- 
 trary, as I argued in the first part of this discussion, we have evidences every 
 where presented, clearly proving that the righteous are not rewarded fully in this 
 life, nor the wicked fully punished. If the judgment is in this life only, and is 
 now in the flesh, then the judgment is very unjust, and is neither justice nor 
 judgment. In all the history of mankind, in that of the Lord Jesus Christ not 
 excepted, the wicked have triumphed. It was one of the grand legacies left by 
 Jesus to his faithful Saints, and the Latter Day Saints, Sir, know by sad experi- 
 ence how faithfully it has been honored, "Ye shall be hated of all men for my 
 name's sake." The Saints were persecuted and oppressed on every hand, ancient- 
 ly, and are so still; though thank God, not so bitterly as beforetime. Good has 
 almost always had to succumb, while evil has triumphed. If the judgment be 
 here, then do I again declare there is no justice in this judgment. 
 
 We are agreed on the term "endless punishment," seeing the brother has 
 accepted the definition I gave of it, or has said to you, that the view I gave of 
 it he would h^ve no objection to. For the benefit of those not here then I will 
 state what that view is. When the terms 'feternal," "endless," "for ever" are 
 used in Scripture, they have reference to the full period of time in the mind of 
 the spea7eer,yrh.et\ieT it be man or Deity. A period of three days only was 
 spoken of by the prophet Jonah as for ever. Eternal judgment may be for a 
 few years, a thousand or a few thousand years' duration. Endless and eternal 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 97 
 
 are sometimes relative, and do not neoessarily signify what our orthodox friends 
 think they do, a condition of things that never shall terminate. They may he 
 absolute) or relative, the context and correlevant passages must be consulted for 
 their meaning. 
 
 Another position the brother has attempted to prove, is the establishment 
 of the kingdom spoken of by Daniel in the early days of Christianity. It has 
 formed quite an important link in the chain of "evidences" presented by him. 
 He has claimed that it began to be established on the day of Pentecost, and has 
 been in existence ever since. This is the theory presented, if I did not mistake 
 the statements. I think we can amply prove by the Bible and history, and I 
 should have done so more fully than I have done, had we had further time, that 
 the kingdom spoken of by the prophet Daniel was not set up, and could not he 
 set up, by any possibility, until after the toes of the image had been formed. 
 The head appeared first; then the breast and arms; then the lower parts of the 
 body, and lastly down to the feet and toes. The toes, ten in number, are the last 
 part in the image, the last formed. They were to be formed after all the rest of 
 the image had passed away, and then, during their existence, the kingdom of 
 God was to be set up; ihe kingdom, that kingdom spoken of by Daniel, by the 
 prophets, by Jesus, and by the apostles in the days of Jesus Christ. The king- 
 dom was to be set up in the days of these ten kings, not one of which was in ex- 
 istence in the days of Jesus Christ or his apostles. I think I have recapitulated 
 the proof of this sufficiently, and that my position is successfully established. 
 
 The brother asked in relation to some quotation about "at hand," and asked. 
 Does that term signify eighteen hundred years in the future, or two or ten 
 thousand years yet to come ? Not with us; but with him with whom "one day 
 is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day," it sometimes does ; 
 for example, as he quoted to you from Joel ; in the beginning of his second 
 chapter Joel say, "For the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand." 
 Now, my brother, if you, because the words "at hand" were used by the apostle, 
 say, and can prove, that it must of necessity take place immediately, or very 
 soon, brother Joel's prophecy, delivered eight hundred and sixty-five years be- 
 fore the coming of Christ, must go down into the waste-basket of rejected mat- 
 ter, as false; for he said, "It is nigh at hand." The very same phrase, the very 
 same expression, u^ed eight hundred and sixty-five years before even Elder 
 Shinn acknowledges its fulfillment, is used by Joel, as was used by Peter and 
 Paul, and quoted by me. But again we notice that Joel not only used this 
 phrase ; but used it in the present tense also, "For it is nigh at hand. 
 
 We might present a number of passages of like nature. We will quote 
 Isaiah 13 : 6. Here the exact phrase, "The day of the Lord is at hand," is 
 used, and it is used too concerning an event not yet fulfilled. Of Cyrus in Isa. 
 44 : 28, the Lord said, "He is my shepherd;" and in 45 : 1, "To Cyrus, whose 
 right hand I have holden," an event one hundred and seventy-six years o£F. 
 Jerepiiah, also, in his thirty-third to fifty-first chapters, which I have quoted 
 from, is predicting by the testimony of the word of the Lord, the destruction 
 that is to come upon the enemies of Israel, and he states that the time is "very 
 near," "not afar off;" yet these periods of time are very dissimilar ; some of 
 them reach out a few years, some a few hundred years, some until long after 
 Christ, and some are not fulfilled even now; yet it was intimated then that the 
 time was near, equivalent to at hand. We pass that question. 
 
 The brother thinks he makes a strong point on the subject of judgment by 
 the quotation '■'■Now is the judgment of this world." I think we had better 
 read that verse, as he did not read it all. It may be politic, whether it be 
 profitable or not, to quote part of an author's statement, and apply a meaning to 
 
98 FOR SCUT T AND SHIJSTM'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 the part quoted which the unquoted part would destroy. John 12 : 31, "Now is 
 the judgment of this world," — the gentleman read to this and then stopped, — 
 "Now is the judginent of this worldj now shall the prince of this worid be cast 
 out." When it is all read we see it refers to some especial circumstance, and 
 that which is predicated thereon. The judgment of this world, not of Christ, 
 and as the result of that judgment, "Now shall the Prince of this world be cast 
 out." 
 
 Who was the Prince of this world? In Revelation 1 :5, Christ declares 
 himself to be "Prince of the kings of the earth;" and in the verse following 
 quotation from John, he says, "And I, if I be lifted up will draw all men unto 
 me." 33?;. "This he said, signifying what death he should die." Does' not 
 this verse which immediately follows the one quoted by Elder Shinn, indicate 
 that he was "the Prince" who would be cast out? I also quote for you from 
 Peter's testimony, as recorded in the fifth chapter of 'the Acts of the Apostles, 
 thirty-first verse. Speaking of Jesus he says, "Him hath God exalted with his 
 right hand to be a Prince and a Savior." Who was the Prince? In the first, 
 as in this question, I believe it to be Jesus; and when Jesus was cast out, the 
 judgment was of this world. The judgment rendered by any judge or court, is 
 according to the judgment of him rendering it, and therefore his judgment, not 
 the judgment of the one tried, but judgment on him. Judgment had been de- 
 creed when the law had been declared, "Thou shalt not kill." If the brother 
 be right, Jesus should have said. Now is my judgment — I will not be taken now. 
 But not so. Sir, "Now is the judgment of this world." In the very same sense 
 it is applicable to, "Now shall the Prince of this world be cast out." To 
 the judgment of the world Jesus Christ was then to be taken, to be judged, con- 
 demned and die upon the cross, that you and I through him might find life. 
 
 The brother found a little fault with me, because I said in one of my argu- 
 ments, that the wicked had so much prosperity in the world, and the righteous 
 had so little. He brought a passage of Scripture from Isaiah 57 : 21 to prove 
 that I was wrong. I did not notice it at the time; for I really thought he was 
 joking, "There is no peace saith my God to the wicked." He might as well 
 have quoted Ps. 37 : 35, "I have seen the wicked in power, and spreading him- 
 self like a green bay tree," right along with it. He understood very well that 
 the Scriptures, as well as our own observation, testify very plainly, that the 
 wicked do prosper and thrive often here, and I thought therefore that his quo- 
 tation was designed for nothing but as a bit of a by-play, and passed along by 
 it. I can hardly think him serious about it yet. 
 
 The brother tells us that the kingdom of God was established on the day of 
 Pentecost, and during the time of Christ and the apostles; but yet, though it 
 was established, it was not perfect. 
 
 In a spiritual or ecclesiastical sense, I shall not difier from him; but, in a 
 legal sense, I would like to know, very much, whether, as we had it in the argu- 
 ment presented by him that the judgment is now past, and was continuous from 
 the beginning of the world, I would like to know whether the judgment was 
 passed before the court of the church was organized, as it must have been if the 
 brother be correct in arguing that the kingdom and the church are one and the 
 same. I do not understand that there can be, justly, with a perfect Being, such 
 a thing as recognition of a judgment passed upon transgressors, when there is 
 neither a court to try them by, nor authority to organize such court by law. I 
 do not see how it can possibly be that the law can be executed before the "judg- 
 ment shall sit." The time is set; and there can be no authority by which the' 
 decrees of that law can be executed before judgment is rendered. If Sir there 
 was in existence no law governing his spiritual kingdom, or church how could 
 
FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 99 
 
 there be a judgment passed upon the people for their deeds in relation to that 
 church? How could there be a punishment for the breaking of a condition, 
 when that condition is not known. Either then this law must first be made 
 known to all who have not yet heard it, before they are judged, or there will be 
 injustice. 
 
 The gentleman also attempted to prove, because of some evidence I brought 
 from the book of Kevelations, establishing the theory that the judgment will be 
 at the coming of Christ, that that book was written long prior to the time when 
 it is said to have been written. You know how well he proved his point ! He 
 gave you the opinion of some men who are said to be groioing into this idea ; but 
 as the evidence has not been given to us, the opinions of his authors weigh noth- 
 ing in the scale of your judgment. Surely, Sir, the Apocalypse was written on 
 the Island of Patmos, and written by John after he went there, and there is 
 nothing defipite in the history either of nations or of the individual, history ec- 
 clesiastical or secular, to show that John ever went to the Isle of Patmos before 
 the year 95. There is no proof of an opposite view before us anywhere, only 
 bare statements like that«presented to us yesterday. 
 
 Bollin, Sir, is a standard author of ancient history in England, in Prance, 
 and in all parts of "Christian" Europe, except, perhaps, in Germany, where one 
 or two others are esteemed equally as reliable collators as he. He is the stand- 
 ard in America, his writings are permanently established as those of a very care- 
 ful and very thorough historian. This is manifestly the view generally enter- 
 tained, from the fact that nearly all the leading historians who now prepare our 
 school and academical histories, when referring to the ancients, appeal to KoUin 
 for evidence. And, now Sir, whose view of the prophecies of the past does Rol- 
 lin sustain; yours, or mine? So far as relates to the four great monarchies, or 
 universal empires, mine most decidedly. You tell us. Sir, that John returned 
 from Patmos, and died. Your authors, Sir, have not one particle of evidence to 
 furnish you in proof of your statement, hence you can give us none. They con- 
 jecture it, and you admit it. Bollin, Sir, gives no direct testimony upon this 
 point at all. When, Sir, you give us testimony concerning Nerva ; when you 
 say there were certain decrees passed by him, under which John returned, you 
 possibly state the truth; but you can find nothing,, ahsoluteh/ nothing, Sir, about 
 John in any history other than an ecclesiastical history, in either the reigns of 
 Nero, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus, Domitian, Nerva, or Trajan. Coming to eccle- 
 siastical history, we discover a reference to him by Eusebius in his third book, 
 eighteenth chapter; but what is it. Sir? I have proved that Eusebius depend- 
 ed on others' testimony, and was not, therefore, a witness; and yet. Sir, even 
 your boasted reference from Eusebius is explained by this : "In this persecution, 
 [that by Domitian], it is HANDED DOWN BY TRADITION, that the apos- 
 tle and evangelist John, who was yet living, * * * was condemned to dwell on 
 the Island of Patmos;" and in thirty-first chapter of same' book, is your reliable 
 testimony of his death, quoted by Eusebius from an epistle of Polycrates, written- 
 not more than twenty years before to Victor, where we are told that "John, a 
 priest that bore the sacredotal plate, a martyr and teacher, rests at Ephesus," so 
 that the last testimony that we have that John died is a testimony that was given 
 ly a man that did not live tiU nearly a hundred years after the supposed death 
 took place; and this testimony our friend sustains (!) by Dr. FliiHwood, who did 
 not live till about seventeen hundred years afterward. So much for this "over- 
 whelming argument." (!) 
 
 As, however, our friend has quoted Eusebius, I will introduce him on an- 
 other point, and being my friend's witness, I will cross-question him. In reply 
 to my first enquiry. Where did John write the Apocalypse? Eusebius gives no 
 
100 FORSOUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 answer but the answer of Dionysius, that John, himself, says that it was while 
 "he was on the island, called Patmos, on account of the word of God, and the 
 testimony of Jesus." In reply to my second, When did John go to Patmos? 
 Eusebius answers, that tradition says he was exiled during the persecution in 
 the reign of Domitian, (the second Nero in cruelty), and that "those who have 
 accurately noted the time" say it was in the fifteenth year of Domitian's reign, 
 which would be the year 95. In reply to my third, When did John return to 
 Ephem^ from Patmos ? Eusebius says it was "after Nerva succeeded to the gov- 
 ernment, when the Eoman Senate decreed that those who had been unjustly 
 expelled should return to their homes. We have, then, some reason for believing 
 that the testimony of Christ to John in the Apocalypse was received in the year 
 96, as the chronology of King James' version of the Bible teaches, for it was 
 certainly received on the Isle of Patmos. That fixes the judgment about which 
 John wrote future from that day; and friend Shinn's witness, Eusebius con- 
 demns him. 
 
 The brother charged me a little wrongly last time; probably it was a mis- 
 take ; he could not have designed it. He declares that I said, I must go to my 
 dictionary to learn that some means more than one. He either did not intend 
 to say what he did say, or has charged me with what I did not say. I have no 
 such simple idea to learn as the meaning of this word. This is what I did say, 
 in substance, that I had something more to learn from my dictionary, if the 
 gentleman's view was right that the word some meant omly more than one; not 
 that it did not mean more than one, but that it was indefinite, and applied to one 
 or more. I think you will remember that was my statement, in effect at least. 
 
 "The law of conscience !" Some fault was found with me for advocating 
 the law of conscience. I reasoned that the condemnation of conscience was 
 men's condemnation, prior to the day of judgment. Now, Sir, when I made the 
 statement at the outset of this debate; also when, at your request, I explained 
 my meaning of that statement in my last speech in this debate, I explained then 
 that in this life judgment at times came upon nations and men, judgments which 
 might be classed under the name of temporal judgments; for when I argued 
 that temporal laws were given, and temporal punishments offered to them, I 
 quoted in support of that position the testimony of our own experiences, ;and 
 also urged that while the judgment of our own consciences is now, the great 
 judgment which shall affix the penalty will be hereafter, when THE JUDG- 
 MENT shall sit and the hoohs shall he opened. 
 
 It will be remembered that our friend's argument of God's being daily 
 angry with the wicked, is unsupported by any proof that he punishes them, every 
 day with the only punishment they shall ever receive ; and Bible proof being 
 absent, the argument fails. 
 
 The "seven-fold punishment of Cain" is left unexplained by Elder Shinn, ' 
 and is unexplainable on the negative hypothesis of no future judgment. 
 
 The quotations concerning the "mercy of God," made to destroy your con- 
 fidence in a future judgment, are illustrative of one attribute of Deity, witt 
 whom are Justice and Judgment also; and the gentleman has failed, and ever 
 must fail, to prove that it would be merciful either to the righteous or the sin- 
 ner, to destroy the moral agency of the sinner, by forcing him into the society of 
 the righteous, while between him and them there is no affinity, nothing in com- 
 mon; and equally as signally has he failed, and ever must fail, to prove that 
 men are rewarded according to their works, if in the future the righteou8%re 
 not honored, and the wicked not punished. ; 
 
 ^!^The gentleman told us his object was to prove that the kingdom of the 
 Messiah was established ; but you are all witnesses that the greater number of 
 
FORSOUTT AND SHINNS DISCUSSION. 101 
 
 passages quoted by him from the Bible refer to events yet future, and that 
 therefore, failing his purpose, I took occasion to thank him for fumishin"' them' 
 as evidence to me against his anomolous position. ° 
 
 In his shifting about effort to prove that the coming of Christ to judgment 
 was, first, the coming of the Koman army against Jerusalem; second, the Pen- 
 tecostal season; and third, the "mediatorial reign;" you have seen how signally 
 he has failed to prove either one of the three; or that anything on earth has yet 
 had aught to do with that judgment which is to be given into the hands of Jesus 
 and his Samts, a judgment reserved for him to execute, and for them, as well 
 as for you and me, to receive the award of. If Jesus be right, every man, 
 whether Jew or Gentile, shall then appear before the judgment to give an account 
 for the deeds done in the body, whether they be good, or whether they be evil • 
 and even Brother Shinn will not dare to say that Jesus is wrong. ' 
 
 The gentleman denies a future judgment, a judgment after this life. We 
 that are living since the destruction of Jerusalem are better off than the poor 
 Jews. 
 
 EtDER Shinn internpsed. "My position is, that judgment belongs to the 
 reign of the Messiah. We are judged daily; judged all the time." 
 
 Eldek Forscutt. Precisely so! Of course then, if "we are judged 
 daily; judged all the time," and there is but one judgment, there can be no 
 judgment in the future. It would be quite interesting now, to know what kind 
 of a punishment is passed upon a man who goes, cruelly and maliciously, and 
 slays his fellow man; and who, perhaps at the very time while his hands are yet 
 dyed with his victim's blood, turns around and takes his own life. Whence 
 does the judgment come which decrees the punishment affixed to wrong doing 
 in this man's case? Strange position ! That this man can do as he pleases in 
 this life, go from it when he pleases, and yet no judgment in the hereafter for 
 him; no condemnation, no recompense! If we are judged as we pass along, 
 judged every day, every moment, for the deeds of that day or moment, and re- 
 ceive then our reward whether we do good or evil, it does not matter, it seems 
 to me, how each day passes, and the old exploded and discarded dogma, "The 
 end justifies the means," had better be revived. But, thank Grod, it is not so. 
 
 Elder Shinn interposed again. "Allow me to correct you. I have said 
 all day through this discussion, that that judgment belongs to the reign of 
 Christ, and that he reigns over the living and the dead; carry that into the fu- 
 ture world, that at last when the time comes, rewards shall be given. I tried to 
 make it clear, that there are two comings of Christ, one coming to judgment, — 
 
 Elder Forscutt interrupted with, "The other coming to give rewards?" 
 
 Elder Shinn replied, "Yes, Sir. One coming to judge and reward; an- 
 other at the close of his reign." 
 
 Elder Forscutt resumed, I really understood you differently, and thought 
 you were affirming that "the coming of Christ to judge the world, is now past." 
 I am glad to learn that (though I think your answer mystifies your argument 
 and position) you yet hesitate to deny all future judgment, and that your eyes 
 are opening to discover this ray of truth. Your position now, Sir, does both 
 your head and heart more credit than did that of yesterday; so. Sir, we will let 
 that point pass. 
 
 "Judgment belongs to the reign of Christ, and he reigns mediatorially now," 
 is our brother's argument still. I would like to know where there is anything 
 in God's book, justifying this opinion. The testimony quoted for you by both 
 Brother Shinn and me tells us that he is now sitting upon "Ms Father's 
 throne; but in the reign of Christ, they who shall have overcome are to sit with 
 him on His throne." If he is now reigning on his throne, and the righteous 
 
102 FORSGUTT AND SHLNN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 at this time are reigning with him, and this spiritual reign is all the reign he 
 and they shall enjoy, then the testimony of the Lord given concerning Israel in 
 thirtieth to thirty-third chapters of Jeremiah, promising, in connection with his 
 reign, the restoration of Israel to their own land, has failed. The promise of 
 God to them, elsewhere recorded, that a man should not be wanting to sit upon 
 the throne of David, to rule over them; that there should be one Lord, and his 
 name one; and he should be King over all the earth, have also failed. If the 
 brother had said that they who have overcome are now enjoying rest and peace 
 in the presence of Christ, who is now on his Father's throne; or that they are 
 awaiting his return to earth to occupy his own throne, he would have been much 
 nearer the scriptural idea. Hear the promise in Isaiah 1 : 25-27 : 
 
 "And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy -dross, and take away 
 all thy tin; and I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counselors as at the beginning; 
 afterward thou shalt be called the city of righteousness, the faithful city. Zion shall be re- 
 deemed with judgment, and her converta with righteousness." 
 
 The Lord will then restore all Israel to their own land; and then Messiah 
 will have ascended the throne of his father David, and will reign over all the 
 earth. Then he will execute judgment and justice in the earth. If that be 
 true. Sir, the judgment is still future; though it will be upon the earth, it will 
 be either in a future state, or in a future time, under conditions that do not yet 
 obtain. 
 
 In reply to the brother's view about the time of Christ's coming, I quoted 
 Acts 3 : 19-21, showing that the heavens must receive, or retain (as some trans- 
 lators render it) Jesus, until the times of the restitution of all things spoken of 
 by the mouth of all the holy prophets. I proved that Israel had been scattered; 
 but that, when the restitution time comes, they will be gathered again, the Jews 
 and Israel be one nation, and Jesus sit upon the throne of his father David as 
 their King, then he will execute the judgment and justice written of him. 
 Then, too, all the wicked nations spoken of will be gathered together, and their 
 judgment be the closing scene of this mission in connection with the coming of 
 Christ to judge the world. This all proves that the coming of Christ to judge 
 the world is not in the past; but in the future. 
 
 The brother is very anxious to see John. I am glad he is so liberal.(!) 
 I did not know that he had quite so big a heart.(!) He is willing to give all 
 his old boots and shoes to see tfohn ! Could you have believed it, if you had 
 not witnessed the measure of his liberality. (!) Well, I apprehend John is not 
 very much in need of your old boots and shoes. Perhaps you'll need them. 
 
 In regard to these questions asked concerning John, "Where is he? and 
 what is he? Where his locality, and what his conditions, faith does not deter- 
 mine, and to the believer it does not matter. What does the Bible, the word of 
 God, say about him, is the question, and the only question for us now. I have 
 taken the two testimonies of Scripture, of Jesus, who said, "There be some stand- 
 ing here which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in 
 his kingdom;" I take this, and I take the testimony of Jesus again, where, in 
 reply to the apostle who understood Jesus to intimate that John should not die 
 till the Son of man should come in his kingdom, "If I will that he tarry till I 
 come, what is that to thee?" Jesus would not deceive. I believe Jesus, Sir. 
 I believe the apostles would not have been allowed to entertain that view con- 
 cerning John had it not been a correct one, nor would Jesus have confirmed a 
 false impression on them. I, Sir, think too highly of Jesus, to believe him 
 guilty of complicitly with deceit. I care not where John is, north, south, east, 
 or west, so far as faith in the word of Jesus is concerned. He is where God 
 permits him to be; but wherever he is, he will be living when Jesus comes; 
 
FORSOUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 103 
 
 kept by Omnipotent power. Elijah too, and it may be others who never were 
 (permitted to taste of' death, will be living when Jesus comes, though undoubted- 
 ly they will have undergone a change in their conditions of life, or life forces. 
 There may be a difficulty in the way here for those who disbelieve the testimony 
 of God's word; but for those who believe it there can be none. 
 
 When Jesus comes, there will then be a number living, who, we are told, 
 will be changed; others whose lives will be prolonged to the "age of a tree," 
 and who, though they should die, will never sleep. God, the source of life, can 
 prolong life or change its conditions. 
 
 Unbelief is not new; nor is Elder Shinn the first who has wanted some one 
 of other than mortal man to create faith in him. Jesus once had a question of 
 this kind under consideration, when he spoke of the rich man in torment want- 
 ing Lazarus sent to warn his five brethren on earth; but he replied, "If they 
 hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one 
 lose from the dead." So say I; if you will not believe Jesus, neither would you 
 believe John. Were he to come here to-day, sir ; you would probably ask dis- 
 dainfully concerning the«man to whom you generously proffer your old boots 
 and shoes, "What old fellow is that?" And if he should answer, "John the 
 Eevelator," you would reply, "You, John the Kevelator ! Get away With you." 
 Sir, if you do not believe without seeing him, you would not with. 
 
 "Time" was called by the Moderator, and the discussion of the first propo- 
 ■•sition was over. 
 
 Elder Forscutt began the discussion of the second proposition in debate on 
 the morning of the 12th, after the usual exercises, in the following speech: 
 
 Proposition. "The Bible teaches a literal resurrection of the body from 
 the grave." 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I arise this morning to introduce to you the second proposition of this dis- 
 cussion, which reads, "The Bible teaches a literal resurrection of the body from 
 the grave." In presenting the evidence as the affirmative of this question, I 
 shall endeavor to support it by four propositions, as follows : 
 
 First, That the Resurrection is one of the principles, and therefore, neces- 
 sarily, a constituent part of the gospel of Christ. 
 
 Second, the Eesurrection was believed in and foretold by the ancient proph- 
 ets, and understood by the ancient Saints. 
 
 Third, That unless the doctrine of the resurrection be true, the promises 
 found in both the Abrahamic and the Christian covenants will fail. 
 
 Fourth, That the righteous will be raised to glory, and the wicked to con- 
 demnation ; and that, therefore, there will be a resurrection of all men. 
 
 In presenting these as the features of what may constitute the discussion 
 on my side of the question, I do so with a consciousness of solemn responsibility 
 before God, the onus prohandi resting upon me; yet, satisfied as I am, and have 
 teen for many years, that unless the doctrine of the resurrection be true, I have 
 no hope in Christ, and can have no hope in eternity; that without it religion 
 would become but a blank, a plaything to pass with the hour, or the service for 
 a time only, I essay the task. . ,„ t 
 
 First then, what do we understand by the term "resurrection.'' In the 
 
104 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 sense in which I shall employ it in this debate, I understand it to mean a rising 
 from the graTe, or a bringing back to life of that which has once been dead, an^ 
 with this view I proceed to notice my first proposition j — That it is one of the 
 principles of the doctrine of Christ; and being one of the principles of the doc- 
 trince of Christ, it becomes a constituent part of the gospel of Christ. 
 
 In support of this, I read the testimony of Paul to the Hebrews, which was- 
 quoted last evening: 
 
 "Therefore leaving the principles of the dodrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not 
 laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God, of the- 
 doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternat 
 judgment." 
 
 Our "Six-principle Baptist" friends consider these six principles to be the 
 gospel of Jesus Christ; and in a general sense, so far as the doctrine of Christ is 
 the gospel of Christ, we agree with them. And the apostle certainly has taught, 
 as one of these six principles, that which is here called the "resurrection of. the 
 dead." — Heb. 6:1, 2. Now, if the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead is^ 
 doctrine of Christ, then is it truth. For, though I agree with Brother Hughes, 
 that the gospel of Christ is but one, yet we divide that gospel, as a doctrinal 
 system, into parts; and as parts of the doctrine by which the gospel is preached, 
 we sometimes call each of those parts a doctrine of Christ: it will be understood, 
 therefore, that I call it, the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, "the doc- 
 trine of Christ" in this sense. 
 
 In presenting the doctrine of the resurrection, as a constituent part of the 
 doictttne of Christ, as one of the principles of that doctrine; I also present to you 
 this thought. If the doctrine of Christ is one, and it is in its entirety, as such, 
 the doctrine of Christ, does it remain the doctrine of Christ, after the taking 
 away or casting out of a part of it? Is not every individual principle of it as 
 essential to its existence, as the existence of any principle of science, is essential 
 to the perfection of that science ? Or the existence of every feature, every indi- 
 vidual part of the body to the existence of the body, as a perfect body. Tor, 
 when we speak of that which is of Christ, as of the principles of the doctrine of 
 Christ, we speak of that which is, like Christ, necessarily perfect. When we 
 speak of the doctrine of Christ, we speak of a perfect system. From that which 
 is perfect nothing can be taken away, without disturbing the harmony, -without- 
 destroying the perfectness of the whole. 
 
 I learn further, too, from a consideration of the testimony presented to us 
 in this sacred book, the record of the New Testament, that this doctrine was 
 preached by Jesus, as one of the constituent parts of his gospel. In the fifth 
 chapter of the testimony of John, twenty-eighth and twenty-ninth verses, he 
 says : (I should read, too, that which precedes it, to make the statement clear tO' 
 you): 
 
 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear- 
 the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in 
 himself, so hath he given unto the Sou to have life in himself; and hath given him authority 
 to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this : for the hour is 
 coming, in the which aU who are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that 
 have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrec- 
 tion of da/mnation.'" 
 
 The theory of the resurrection, or rather the doctrine of the resurrection, 
 as presented by Paul, seems to have Jesus to support it; and in the testimony w& 
 have just read, Christ presents to us two features of the resurrection; the resur- 
 rection unto life, and the resurrection unto Condemnation, or^ as we have it here^ 
 damnation. 
 
 Again in the sixth chapter of John, thirty-ninth verse : 
 
FOR SCUT T AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 105 
 
 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I 
 should loae nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." 
 
 40v. — "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and 
 believeth on him, may have everlasting life; and I iciS raise him up at the last day." 
 
 This testimony is very conclusive to my mind, both as to the revelation of 
 the doctrine, and the acknowledgment of it, as being a part of the doctrine of 
 Christ. 
 
 Still again in the testimony of John 6 : 39 : 
 
 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I 
 should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." 
 
 I read this before; but now I call your attention to the statement found in 
 it, _" Of all which the Father hath given me I should lose nothing, but should 
 raise itup&tih& last day," and will predicate thereon this argument; that if 
 God has given the world to Jesus; if to him he has deeded all men, unless there 
 be express conditions on which the benefits of that gift or deed shall accrue to 
 the party God hath given to hhn to whom the gift is given, then will Jesus 
 resurrect or raise up the jDodies of man from the beginning of the world down to 
 the end of time. I present this in consonance with the same thought presented 
 by the apostle Paul, in the fifteenth chapter of his first epistle to the Corinthians, 
 twenty-first verse : 
 
 "Since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22. For as 
 in Adam all die, even so iu Christ shall all be made alive." 
 
 And in the thirty-second verse, Paul queries, "If after the manner of men I 
 have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise 
 not? Let us eat and drink, for to-morrow we die." If there be no resurrection 
 of the dead, Paul considered that there would be no advantage accrue to him 
 from the labors he had bestowed upon the cause of Christ, his labor was in vain ; 
 for he would receive no advantage from it. He thought that he might as well 
 have not labored as to have labored, as to have sacrificed all his interest, all his 
 ease in this world, which he had had to do in receiving and accepting Christ, if 
 there he no resurrection of the dead." • 
 
 Paul says when he is speaking of himself, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a 
 Pharisee." When he makes this statement, he makes known that which covers 
 a great deal of ground; because the Pharisees believed that there were both 
 angels and spirits, and that there would be a resurrection of the dead; and 
 when he makes the statement that he is "a Pharisee, and the son of a Pharisee," 
 a Pharisee of the Pharisees, he endorses' the doctrine of the Pharisaic church or 
 sect on the point in question, and confesses a belief in the doctrine of the exist- 
 ence of spirits, in the doctrine of the existence of angels, as such, and in the 
 doctrine of the restoration to life of those who are dead. Should he fail in any 
 one of those three principles of their doctrine and accept the other two, he is 
 not a Pharisee. If a Pharisee, he embraced these three tenets, in so far as a 
 belief in them is concerned. If he believed only in the doctrine of the existence 
 of angels and not in the existence of spirits, or .the doctrine of the resurrection 
 of the dead, he would be only a one-third Pharisee, a partial Pharisee; not a 
 Pharisee proper ; not a Pharisee of the Pharisees. If he believed in the doc- 
 trine of the resurrection of the dead, and in angels, but not in spirits, he would 
 then be only two-thirds a Pharisee, not a Pharisee, and a Pharisee of the Phari- 
 sees. It required the acceptance of the three distinguishing principles accepted 
 by the sect of Pharisees, to constitute him, in opposition to the Saducees, a 
 Pharisee, so that he might be contradistinguished by their especial name, a 
 Pharisee, and hii hope in the resurrection of the dead be recognized as that of 
 the Pharisees. Paul then certainly believed in the doctrine of the resurrection 
 
106 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 of the dead, in the same sense, that is to say, in the same general sense in which 
 the Pharisees believed, it and with this acceptance, he seems to be perfectly satis- 
 fied; for when he comes into the assembly before which he is accused, and they 
 are divided among themselves, he presents the testimony of his accept9,nce of 
 that doctrine then, as one of the reasons why his doctrino was called in question. 
 Paul has been charged by some, with "playing off a little ;" some have said, 
 "he only made this statement, because he discovered both Pharisees and Sadu- 
 cees in the assembly, and thought that by this avowal, he should gain the good 
 •opinion of the Pharisees in his favor, but Paul was a God-fearing man all his 
 life. Even before he received the gospel of Christ, he did what he did, he tells 
 us himself, in all good conscience before God. Paul, therefore, would not make 
 any reference to a doctrine which he did not subscribe to, which he did not 
 fully endorse. 
 
 I now refer you to the testimony of Jesus, as relating to the dead. Mark 
 12:26,27: 
 
 "And as touching the dead, that they rise; have ye not read in theljook of Moses, how 
 in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, 
 and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye there- 
 fore do greatly err." 
 
 As certified by Luke 20; 37; it reads thus: 
 
 "Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the 
 "Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." 
 
 And this is carried out the same as presented by Mark 38th verse : 
 "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living; for all live unto him." 
 
 I apprehend that our friends who believe in the unconsciousness of the 
 spirit after the death of the body, would find some difficulty in avoiding the force 
 of the last clause in this statement. It is certainly not to be said by me, what- 
 ever it may be by my friend on the left, that Abraham, or Isaac, or Jacob, when 
 Moses made the declaration at the bush, had then received a resurrection from 
 the dead. And if they had not received a resurrection from the dead, if the 
 bodies of these men had not been raised, then there had been living within those 
 bodies that which existed after death, not in an unconscious state, but in a state 
 of living unto God, as the statement here made is, "For he is not a God of the 
 •dead, but of the living ; for all live unto him." This is an explanatory state- 
 ment made by Jesus, and recorded by Mark in his twelfth chapter, twenty- 
 'seventh verse, relating to these three conditions of man. 
 
 First, as man in and of the body. " 
 
 Second, as conscious man out of the body. 
 
 Third, as perfected man in his resurrected state. 
 
 That man exists in the body as a man, spirit and body united becoming 
 •one living soul; that, at death, the body resolves itself, or is resolved into its 
 primitive elements, to the condition it existed in before it became flesh and 
 blood, and before yet it passed through the conditions requisite to prepare it to 
 become the flesh and blood of mortality, is conceded by all. When the body 
 -dies, the spirit still lives, though out of the body, and possesses all the powers 
 which it possessed while in the body, while in connection with the body; eb 
 then the spirit does not die, it is not the spirit which is raised from the dead, 
 but the body in which the spirit has once existed. 
 
 As also the body possessed powers of life in connection with the spirit; so 
 again it shall be raised to life, and the spirit and the body again be united, and 
 •appear before Christ and exist in the hereafter, in a conscious state. Conscious- 
 ness, they shall have; bringing to them condemnation for past misdeeds; or 
 happiness for past good deeds. 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 107 
 
 i 
 
 Then, as underlying these three principles, we ask the question here. If 
 there be a resurrection of the dead, what is it that shall be raised from the dead? 
 The spirit certainly is not dead; that possesses power of life within itaelf. In 
 the statement of Jesus, we learn that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had passed 
 away, had then ceased to exist in the flesh, and yet they lived; but they lived 
 unto God. The spirit theii dieth not, but has an existence independently of the 
 body. It was the body, and the body only, which died ; and if the body was 
 that part only of man which died, and there is to be a resurrection, and the term 
 resurrection signifies a raising to life, then that which has died is that also which 
 must be raised to life. If the spirit had died, then might we speak of the 
 resurrection as the raising of the spirit to life. In order to sustain our view, we 
 need but to show that the raising to life of the body, is the resurrection of the 
 dead, and this I have done. 
 
 I do not know what position my brother may take, nor shall! anticipate him; 
 but I have heard those who, in fact and in principle, declare there is no resur- 
 rection of the dead by declaring that when the body dies, the spirit goes to some 
 realm far above, called '^eaven;" or to some realm equally far below, called 
 "hell," and that the spirit that goes to either of these places, is doomed to abide 
 there forever and forever. This precludes the possibility of a return to con- 
 sciousness of the body, inasmuch as the spirit lives independently of the body. 
 
 I do not suppose Elder Shinn will deny that the spirit may exist independ- 
 ently of a body, and that, therefore, it may preserve its identity in spirit form. 
 Now, if the body, as I have shown that the body will be restored, — if the body 
 has restored to it the powers of life, and in the enjoyment of those powers, has 
 an existence upon earth, (I know that this may not seem to be relevant to the 
 subject, yet I introduce it here to make myself clearly understood, and because 
 I believe this will be its home), if we are to live here, and this be our home in 
 our future state, this earth, and this earth only, not in its present condition, but 
 in a changed and glorious condition, then we argue therefrom, that a restoration 
 of the spirit to the body is essential. The restoration of the body is the calling 
 of the body from death to life, and it must be prepared for and adapted to an 
 existence on the new earth, that then, as now, the body may be affiliated with 
 the earth on which it dwells. The body has now all the elements in its compo- 
 sition which exist in this earth, so much so, that man was called by some ancient 
 ■ philosopher a "microcosm of the earth," by others "microcosm of the universe." 
 
 The law ^ adaptation is everywhere strikingly manifest now, where the 
 rude hand or vulgar policy of man has not wrought disharmony; it will not be 
 less but more so in the resurrected state ; for then, whatever its station or use, 
 each existence will be in perfect harmony with all things in its own sphere, %nd 
 sustain congruent relations to all things else in a perfected state. If the spirit 
 only should live, it would bear too insufficient relationship to its residence, the 
 earth, for the sympathies of its nature to be called forth by its surroundings. 
 The flowers would bloom, the fruits would ripen, and the luxuriance of the earth 
 adorn its fair face in vain, for its spirit occupants would have nothing in their 
 natures adapted to the enjoyment of its more than Edenic loveliness. The spirit 
 will be in harmony with its origin, and the body the medium by which will 
 be transmitted to it the joys of earth-life; then as now. When you review these 
 thoughts, and consider the bearings of the arguments that may be presented 
 before you, think of this as of one of the reasons why the spirit should not be 
 "Unclothed, but clothed upon." 
 
 I here return to the promise that there shall be a resurrection. That there 
 shall be a coming forth from the grave, is evidenced by the quotations I have al- 
 ready read, as having been uttered by Jesus : 
 
108 F0R8CUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 "Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming, in the which all who are in the graves, shall 
 hear his voice, and shaU wrAe forth.'''' 
 
 There has been an objection urged against the acceptation of this as a liter- 
 al truth, to this effect; that those who are in their graves in a decomposed state, 
 can not possibly hear; for as they would have none of the faculties or organs of 
 hearing, they would have no power to hear, no power to understand, no power 
 to conceive the meaning of an utterance made by either Jesus or his Father, and 
 that, therefore, the philosophy of the resurrection of the dead, as based upon 
 the deblaration that they who are in their graves shall hear his voice, is a phil- 
 osophy very poorly founded. 
 
 While there may be some credit given to this argument; -while it may seem 
 to be a very conclusive argument to some, it lacks in the essential which belongs 
 to all arguments which should be used in respect to the things promised by God, 
 and that essential is "Faith in God." All the hopes of the ancients; all the 
 joys and blessings of the promises; all the triumphs of Christ in the gospel, are 
 predicted on the exercise of faith in God. "He that believeth," "According to 
 your faith be it done unto you," etc. Therefore, while we may not be able to 
 comprehend Iww the dead shall be raised, or how the dead shall hear his voice, 
 faith ia the testimony of Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, the Creator of the 
 world, for by and through him all things were created that do exist; faith in 
 his utterance who first formed man, would lead the true believer to say, that the 
 very same being who first formed man, and gave to him powers of hearing, 
 powers of sight, powers of speech, the joints and limbs that belong to the body, 
 can again call them from the dust, clothe them again with those or similar 
 powers; can cause that which now sleeps in the dust to revive and possess all 
 the functions now belonging to man, and enable man, thus endowed, to exercise 
 all the faculties peculiar to him, that he may hear and live when God shall spqak, 
 and all in accordagce with the laws of their renewed nature. 
 
 The declaration of Jesus that the dead shall hear, is an evidence that we 
 shall be raised to life in the exercise of the faculty of hearing, with all the func- 
 tions of our bodies and faculties of our minds. The condemnation or the 
 blessing of God will come upon us in vain, unless in the exercise of those facul- 
 ties we can feel the reproof of condemnation, or enjoy the fruits of blessing. 
 They are the very powers in fact that belong to the body in this state, and will 
 belong to it in a resurrected state, or man will not be restored. 
 
 I now pass to consider my second proposition, which is, thafc the doctrine of 
 the resurrection "was foretold and believed in by the ancients." 
 
 That the oldest book, or that which is supposed to be the oldest book, in 
 the Bible, contains evidence that the ancients did believe in the doctrine of the 
 resurrection, and that therefore Jesus was right when he intimated that Moses 
 believed in this doctrince, I am well satisfied. 
 
 We read that Job believed in it, and it is thought by some that Job lived 
 contemporaneously with Abraham. In the Septuagint version his is fifth from 
 Abraham, and it seems according to the testimony of the Septuagint^ and the 
 calculations of Ussher, that the book of Job was written before the exodus from 
 Egypt, some twenty-nine years, and that therefore the book of Job is the oldest 
 book in the collection of books called the Bible. 
 
 Job, in his nineteenth chapter, commencing at the twenty-third verse, after 
 addressing himself to his friends on their persecution of him, and desAibing his 
 agony while passing through the trials through which he did pass, says : 
 
 "Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! 24. That 
 they were graven with an iron pen and lead in tlxe rock for ever! 25. For I know that my 
 Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. 26. And though 
 
FOR SCUT T AND SHINN' 8 DISCUSSION. 109 
 
 after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shaU I see God. 27. Wliom I shall 
 see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed 
 wiUiin me." 
 
 Here faith expresses itself at the early day in which Job lived; faith too 
 that has not been excelled even by that of the apostles of Jesus Christ, faith in 
 the existence of his Kedeemer, and the power of his resurrection. 
 
 It was with no little, no ordinary degree of confidence that Job, in the 
 presence of his spiritual persecutors said, "/ know that my Redeemer livethj" 
 when as there would arise before him the possibility of his dying before the Re- 
 deemer should come; he yet declares, notwithstanding this, that he knows that 
 he would ttand with him wpon the earth in the latter day. Yes ; though skin 
 worms should destroy his body, though his reins should be consumed within 
 him, yet in his flesh, in his flesh, he should see God, and his eyes should be- 
 hold him, and he should stand in the presence of God, in the presence of Christ, 
 his Redeemer. Although the power of life which he then had should be lost in 
 death, though the powers of his body should be destroyed; yet, he should re- 
 ceive again those powers with his body, with which he should realize all the joy 
 that he had anticipated, and realize it too with his Redeemer in the flesh. 
 
 The half hour here expired, the Moderator announced "Time," and Elder 
 Forscutt gave way. 
 
 Elder Shinn's reply to Elder Forscutt's first argument is as follows : 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 We continue our friendly discussion this morning, but the laboring oar is 
 in the hand of my brother. I would be very glad, indeed, if there would be 
 clearness of understanding existing between us in regard to the point at issue, 
 especially in regard to the thought of the resurrection of the literal body, of 
 which my brother speaks. Whether it is to be an event that is to take place 
 some time in the future, or whether the resurrection of the animal body is pro- 
 gressing now. I confess I do not clearly understand my brother in regard to 
 that. I will state, however, the question as I understand it. 
 
 First I would say in regard to the proposition, under discussion, that the 
 word literal, as therein found, means, according to the letter, primitive, real, not 
 figurative or metaphorical. The natural body, my brother will notice, if he will 
 look at the Diaglott, is translated, and I consider it much better, "animal body;" 
 therefore you will bear in mind, that my brother having affirmed the resurrec- 
 tion of the literal body, has mutually affirmed the resurrection of the animal 
 body. I do not agree with my brother in regard to his definition of the word 
 resurrection. You remember he says the word resurrection, this is translated 
 from the Greek noun Anastasis, or it is so often translated resurrection ; and my 
 brother says this means a rising or rising from the grave, or the being brought 
 back again to life of that which was dead. I hope I have not misstated my 
 brother here. I have not done so intentionally. According to my idea of the 
 word it has no such meaning. 
 
 "The Greek noun (Anastasis) is from ana, again, and s^isis, the act or state of standing, or 
 causing to stand, or being caused to stand. Anakasis, therefore, signilies the act or state 
 of rising, raising, or being raised." 
 
 Greenfield's definition of anasiasis, "A rising up, a resurrection." 
 
 '^Anastasis never signifies or implies a resurrection of the same body." — Bishop Newton. 
 
 "-iljMMtosMjisually denotes our existence beyond the grave." — Dr. Dwight. 
 
 '^AnastaMs denotes properly, no more than a renewal of life to them, (the dead) in what- 
 ever manner this happens." — Dr. Campbell. 
 
110 FORSGUTT AND SEINE'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 "Eesurrection. A rising again; chiefly, the revival of the dead of the human race." — 
 "Wpbster. 
 
 Now the view is before us this morning of the resurrection of the animal 
 body, and I call your attention to that event: 
 
 "This summons shall speed through every corner of the universe; and heaven, earth, and 
 hell, and all their inhabitants, shall hear and obey. Now, me thinks I see, I hear the earth 
 heaving, charnel houses rattling, tombs bursting, graves opening. Now the nations imder- 
 ground begin to stir. There is a noise and shaking among the dry bones. The dust is all 
 alive and in motion, and the globe breaks and trembles as with an earthquake, whilst this vast 
 army is working its way through, and bursting into life. The ruins of human bodies are 
 scattered far and wide, and have passed through many and surprising transformations. A limb 
 in one country, another in another; here the head and there the trunk; and the ocean rolling 
 between. But now at the sound of the trumpet, they shall aU be collected, wherever they 
 were scattered; all properly sorted and united, however they were composed; atom to its 
 fellow atom, bone to its fellow bone. Now, me thinks, you may see the air darkened with 
 fragments of bodies, flying from country to country, to meet and join their proper parts. 
 Scattered limbs, and all the various bones, obsequious to the call, self-moved advance ; the 
 neck perhaps to meet the distant head; the legs the distant feet. 
 
 "Dreadful to view, see through the dusky sky. 
 
 Fragments of bodies in confusion fly, 
 
 To distant regions, journeying there to claim 
 
 Deserted members, and complete the frame. 
 
 The severed head and trunk shall join once more. 
 
 Though realms now rise between and oceans roar,_ 
 
 The, trumpet sound each vagrant mote shall hear, ' 
 
 And, whether fixed in earth or free in air. 
 
 Shall heed the signal, wafted in the wind, 
 
 And not one sleeping atom lag behind." 
 
 — The Columbian Orator, pps. 98, 99. 
 This is the view here given, and I believe it is a correct view, of the popu- 
 lar notion of the resurrection of the literal body. This is the usual way of un- 
 derstanding it. I do not know as my brother understands it precisely so. He 
 may make a diflFerent statement of it, but the result is certainly very nearly the 
 same. 
 
 He calls our attention to Hebrews 6 : 1, 2. We will notice our brother's 
 
 "Therefore leaving the first principles, not again laying down the foundation for reforma- 
 tion from works causing death and of faith in God, the doctrine of immersions, the imposition 
 of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and agelasting judgment." 
 
 Now, my brother can not possibly fix up this passage of Scsj-ipture to apply 
 to the life beyond this present life. He certainly will be unable to do that; 
 because the aioon judgment, closes the matter, with the mediatorial reign, and 
 fixes it there. The death spoken of is a moral death. It is something which 
 was to transpire during the mediatorial reign. That is all I wish to notice in 
 regard to it now. 
 
 John 5 : 24-29, my brother reads, beginning with the 24th : 
 
 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent 
 me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death un- 
 to life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall 
 hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." 
 
 Certainly, my brother will not maintain that this is in the next world. 
 "Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is, [mark it], NOW 
 IS, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear 
 shall live." My brother, do you think the dead body is here meant? If you 
 do not, why notice this passage? What is meant here? A close and critical 
 definition will be in place in the commencement of this discussion. Mark "The 
 hour is coming, and now is." Well now, my brother ought to know very well, 
 that these graves are toombs. How many are living in the tombs ? Are all 
 
PORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. Ill 
 
 mankind? Will they be in the tombs? Then it would be only a partial resur- 
 rection at last; will not embrace all mankind, unless you can show that all will 
 be in the tombs. Tombs means the state or place of the dead. "And shall 
 come forth, they that have done good to the resurrection of life; and they that 
 have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation, or damnation." 
 
 That is all upon this passage. We might add something by way of expla- 
 nation in regard to this passage. This certainly is a moral resurrection ; not a 
 literal resurrection from the dead, beyond a doubt. 
 
 As we shall use this, for the purpose of better understanding each other, I 
 will offer something in regard to this matter. 
 
 John^;^.— "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting- 
 life." ° 
 
 John 6: 54.— "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; a«d I 
 will raise him up at the last day." 
 
 Luke 20. This the brother quoted in connection. 
 
 1 John 3:14.— "We know we have passed from death unto life, because we love the 
 brethren." 
 
 The death and life here spoken of is here in this world. Let the brother 
 prove, if he can, from John 5; it is a resurrection to immortality. 
 We read again, Colossians 3:1: 
 
 "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth 
 on the right hand of God." 
 
 _ The believer here, is spoken of as being risen, having received the ever- 
 lasting life of the gospel. More we have to bring forward on this subject, at 
 the proper time. 
 
 John 6 : 39, 40. He predicates an argument on the meaning of the phrase, 
 "last day," as I understand it. Let us look at that term, and see whether he 
 has a right to predicate an argument upon it, and say that it has reference to- 
 the life beyond this life, or the resurrection of the dead to immortality, simply 
 because the last day is indicated or used there. Let us look at the usage of that 
 term. 
 
 John 6:44. — "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw 
 him; and I will raise him up at the last day." 
 
 I presume, piy brother, it would be fair to say, predicates his argument 
 upon the meaning of the phrase, "last day." 
 
 John 6 : 39, 40. — "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he 
 hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is. 
 the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may 
 have everlasting life : and I will raise him up at the last day." 
 
 Now let us see what is meant by the last days, whether life beyond thi» 
 life, immortal life, or whether it can not be applied to this life. 
 
 Heb. 1:1, 2. — "God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake unto the fathers- 
 by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken'nnto us by his Son Jesus Christ," etc. 
 
 This fixes the last days precisely at the time Peter fixes them on the day of' 
 Pentecost. He said, "This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel," 
 mark you, "this is that," "saying it shall come to pass in the last days." John, 
 says, 1 John 2 : 18 : 
 
 "Little children, it is the last time. * * * Whereby we know that it is the 4m< time." 
 
 But he calls our attention to the fact, that there shall be a resurrection 
 both of the just and the unjust. This I believe. Then he spoke something 
 about the Pharisees, and about the belief of the Pharisees and Sadducees. I 
 have something to say in regard to this matter now, more by and by. I know 
 the Sadducees not only rejected the Pharisees' view of the resurrection; but also 
 contended that all of man dies at the death of the body. . The Sadducees' view. 
 
112 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 Josephus declares, expressed the doctrine of souls dying with the body. Again 
 he tells us they take away the belief in the immortality of the soul, and prove 
 the soul not to be immortal. We read the Sadducees say there is no resurrec- 
 tion, neither angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees confess both. The Sadducees 
 denial of the resurrection was equivalent to a denial of life after death. Their de- 
 nial of spirits was the denial of the existence of spirits, or souls of earthly bodies. 
 They seemed to believe that the old body died, and the spirit died with it, and 
 man had no further existence. The Pharisees thought the spirit continued to 
 exist. I do not know but it would be well enough to read the definition of the 
 word spirit. Angels the brother seems to think are different from spirits. But 
 they can not be, my brother, according to your own speech. Do you not believe 
 with me that spirits may be messengers? And that that is the meaning of the 
 word angel? Then, if you do, there is no necessity of keeping up the division, 
 and trying to create the impression here that there is a difference. Being as the 
 word angel means messenger, it may not be, or it may be a man. It may be a 
 spirit sent from God. It may be a person here in mortality. 
 
 But my brother calls my attention to Luke 20 : 35-38. I think this was it: 
 "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrectloQ 
 from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; neither can they die any more." 
 
 Mark that, my brother, "Neither can they die any more," when they have 
 reached the resurrection state : 
 
 "For they are equal unto the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of 
 the resurrection." 
 
 Now that the dead are raised; "now that the dead are raised}" — is it not 
 a little remarkable, that my brother should appeal to this passage of scripture in 
 favor of their bodies being raised in the future ? What does he believe in re- 
 gard to this matter ? That the bodies are already raised? "Now that the dead 
 are raised," not that they shall be some time in the future. I wish he would 
 be plain in regard to this matter. I believe in a progressive resurrection. We 
 can not proceed properly, unless we do understand each other. I took a position 
 squarely yesterday. I believe in a progressive resurrection. I believe that this 
 was evidenced by the testimony here given by Moses : 
 
 "ISTow that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he called the 
 Lord, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of 
 the dead, but of the living; for all live unto him.'''' ' 
 
 And, the time I believe to be now; that is, the day of the dead living unto 
 him, but not the dead bodies. 
 
 The brother calls my attention to the fact, that our future state will be on 
 this earth, after it has been renewed and changed. I expect to take a great 
 many grand lessons on this earth, in a future state or condition. But I am in- 
 clined to think I will not remain here always. I do not know how long God 
 ■will permit me to remain upon this earth and view its beauties and wonders. I 
 have not been able to ascertain that. I expect to remain here for some time, 
 but I do not expect to be confined here throughout all eternity. 
 
 The brother refers us to Job, and makes a point strong as he can. Now 
 for Job, nineteenth chapter, "Oh that my words were now written ! oh that they 
 were printed in a book ! that they were graven with an iron pen and lead in 
 the rock forever !" I now leave out the italics. Look at your Bible. "For I 
 know that my Kedeemer liveth." 
 
 You wiU never be able to prove that the Redeemer named is Jesus Christ, 
 or that Job had anything of the kind in his mind. You must prove your posi- 
 tion as you go along. Remember you are on the aflSrmitive now. It requires 
 something more than mere denial. 
 
FORSUUTT AND SHTNN' S DISCUSSION. 113 
 
 I know my Redeemer liveth, and he shall stand at the latter day upon the 
 earth, "And after my skin destroy this;" the word "worms" is not here, my 
 brother, only in italics. I am not mistaken. "After my skin destroy this; 
 (the word "body" is not here, my brother, only in italics.) 
 
 Job had a disease, perhaps the small pox; some very sore disease. He was 
 covered with sores, and very probably seriously afflicted. "Yet in my flesh;" 
 though his skin be destroyed with this disease, "yet in my flesh shall I see God." 
 The brother predicates his argument on the fact that Job was to see God in his 
 flesh. Turn to Job 42 : 5, and I think the laugh will be turned the other way. 
 Job says to God, here at the last of his work, "I have heard of thee by the hear- 
 ing of the ear; but now mine eye seeth thee." It was fulfilled. All about car- 
 rying Job into a future existence, with his old body lugged up, has failed of its 
 point. Pleave that for the present. 
 
 Now, my brother, if I have misunderstood you in any way, I have not 
 aimed to misrepresent you. I have some counter arguments to throw in, some- 
 thing to present, by way of opposition to my brother's views of the literal resur- 
 rection of the body. , 
 
 My first argument is, "Man is created in the image of God;" therefore the 
 true man is a spirit entity. 
 
 John 4; 24. — "God is a Spirit; and they that worahip him must worship him in spirit and 
 in truth." 
 
 Gen. 1: 21. — "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he 
 him; male and female created he them." 
 
 Gen. 5 : 1, 2. — "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God crea- 
 ted man, in the likeness of God made he him; male and female created he them." 
 
 Now if God is Spirit, and man is created in his image and likeness, the 
 true man is a spirit entity. It makes no difference what kind of a body he may 
 be clothed upon by, or clothed with. I have something here from, would it do 
 for me to call him Brother Smith, or Joseph; for really I do not entertain that 
 hatred towards him that a great many do : 
 
 "And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light, is under condemnation; for man is , 
 spjriif." — Book of Doctrine and Covenants. 
 
 Well, now, I believe that. This being the case, the first argument being 
 the true man is a spirit entity, it matters but little how he is to be clothed upon 
 5fith a body. He may be clothed upon with an earthly body. At present, I 
 believe man is a spirit, clothed upon with an earthly body, but he has in heaven 
 a spiritual body; not the same old body. You can see our view by this. 
 
 Now in regard to the record of man's being formed, etc.: 
 
 Gen. 2: 19. — "And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and 
 every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them." 
 
 Gen. 2 : 1. — "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into 
 his nostrils the breath of life ; and man became a living soul." 
 
 Job says something about this matter. Job 10 : 11 : 
 
 "Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast formed me with ;bones, and sinews." 
 "Thou hast clothed me." Job, the independent spirit man stands out as 
 clear as can be, "with skin and flesh, and hast formed me with bones and sin- 
 ews." Again, Psalm 103 : 
 
 "For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth we are but dust." 
 That is the frame, not the spirit entity, the true man; but the form, the 
 frame, the house that man lives in. Now Paul's understanding. We call your 
 attention to 2 Corinthians 12 : 2, 3 : 
 
 "I Imew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; 
 or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third 
 heaven." , 
 
114 FOR SCUT T AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 Now mark you, Paul makes the point very distinct, between the man and 
 the body; showing that the true Paul, man, himself, may be in the body, or out 
 of the body, showing conclusively, that the true man is the spirit man. "I knew 
 such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body, I cannot tell; God know- 
 eth); how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, 
 which it is not lawful for a man to utter." 
 
 "Time," called the Moderator. 
 
 Elder Shinn asked, "Let me just read'one passage." 
 
 Elder Forscutt. "Certainly; go on." 
 
 Peter's view, 2 Peter 1 : 14 : 
 
 "Knowing that shortly I must put off this tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath 
 shewed me." 
 
 Elder Forscutt's second argument. 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I rise with a great deal of pleasure this time, as I see my friend is disposed 
 to help me in this debate. He has been doing his very best to sustain the argu- 
 ment put forth in my first speech. He has spelled well, and I thank him for 
 his assistance. I hope that the arguments by me, sustained by him, will have 
 their duo weight with you all. 
 
 The brother claims, however, that i am not suificiently clear in stating my 
 views on the question of the resurrection. The gentleman himself wrote the 
 proposition for me to affirm, and if he did not write it sufficiently plain^ you 
 must blame Brother Shinn, not Brother Forscutt. I am speaking to the propo- 
 sition as he wrote it. It is this, "The Bible teaches a literal resurrection of the 
 body from the grave." It is for me to lead this time, as I happen to have the 
 front harness on, and the brother must not kick out of the breeching. 
 
 The brother wishes to know, however, whether I believe in a progressive 
 resurrection, or a resurrection at some stated time. I will be equally as frank as 
 he in stating my views. I do not believe in what is ordinarily called a "pro- 
 gressive resurrection," but I do believe in the very opposite to what my brother 
 does; I believe in a resurrection at stated times, instead of at a time, making 
 the word time plural. n 
 
 The brother introduces, as supportive of his view of this subject, the Greek 
 word anastasis, and quotes from Mr. Lewis' work on the resurrection, his defini- 
 tion of that word. 
 
 (To Mr. Shinn.) Did not you quote from Lewis on the resurrection? 
 
 No reply. 
 
 Mr. Forscutt. I think you did. Sir. 
 
 Mr. Shinn. I quoted from several learned authors. 
 
 Mr. Forscutt. I think you quoted from Mr. Lewis. That is the book 
 there, is it not? (putting his finger on the book.) 
 
 Mr. Shinn. Yes, Sir. 
 
 Mr. Forscutt. Yes, Sir; I thought so. I have Lewis' work, and am 
 acquainted with its arguments. Mr. Lewis is a Universalist writer. We 
 are not arguing the question on the basis of Mr. Lewis' views as to the meaning 
 or application of the word anastasis, from which, he tells us, we have the 
 word resurrection wherever this word is presented to us in the English transla- 
 tion of the Bible; but from the Bible. Of course, if I wished, I might run to 
 other authority, and quote other Greek writers if it were wished; but that would 
 not determine the question; as when we agreed upon this debate, it was stipu- 
 lated that King James' translation of the Bible should be the standard referenOe 
 
FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 115 
 
 «n all doctrinal matters. Therefore, thougt we may quote other authors, and 
 ma,y use those authors as supportive of our arguments; yet King James' trans- 
 lation of the Bible, whatever value my friend may attach to that translation, 
 becomes the reference to us. 
 
 He tells that the word anaUasis signifies to rise, or a state of rising. Very 
 true. I believe that ; but it also signifies resurrection. There never will be 
 any resurrection, unless there be a rising. The resurrection state is that state 
 into which the rising introduces, whether it be a rising of the body or of some- 
 thing else. I have argued that it has reference to the rising of the body. Our 
 friend quotes for us from Greenfield, and gives as one of his definitions of anas- 
 tasis, the word resurrection. I thank Mr. Grreenfield for this, and our brother 
 for quoting him, as I have just as good a right to use his quotation as he has. 
 Webster tells us, it signifies a rising again; chiefly, or specially the rising again 
 from the dead, — the rising of the human race. I thank the brother for quoting 
 Webster also. His definition describes exactly what I understand the resurrec- 
 tion to be, in the proposition now presented and affirmed by me. 
 
 In reply to my ^end's criticism on tombs or graves, it may perhaps 
 startle some of you, because he tells you that if I understand the statement of 
 Jesus correctly, "All who are in their graves shall hear his voice," it will be but 
 a partial resurrection after all, because there are many who are not in their 
 graves. There are some who are burned, who are reduced to ashes; there are 
 others drowned in the depths of the ocean. True; but with the great majority, 
 the generality of mankind of all nations, christian and heathen, civilized and 
 uncivilized, the general plan is to bury their dead. The Savior chose a word 
 expressive of a principal condition, to represent a general idea. The word graves 
 or tonibs represfents the place to which the dead are generally consigned; either 
 word is a general term ; and if there be exceptions, they do not afi'ect the rule. 
 To meet these exceptions, as though such objections as this would be urged, 
 though I consider them very superficial, and the using of them nothing but mere 
 quibbling, we have the testimony given to us, that not only those who are in 
 their graves shall come forth, but likewise those that are in the sea, death and 
 hell also; in fact, John saw, as it were, every place deliver up its dead. "I saw 
 the dead, small and great stand before God." — Kev. 20 : 12. The question, then, 
 as to whether people are in their graves of earth, or graves of water in the seas, 
 is not the important question. If the Savior gave the general idea, and used 
 the word which expressed this general idea, be used the proper word, even if it 
 did not express every condition in which men would be found in death. There 
 "is no necessity for this puerile kind of presentation, which arraigns Jesus for his 
 use of language. 
 
 Then the brother says of me. Let him prove it a resurrection to immortal- 
 ity. When I say it will be a resurrection to immortality, I will try and do so. 
 I have not yet said it was ; nor does the proposition require it. 
 
 The brother now introduces what seems to me the veriest quibbling. He 
 tells you that I base my argument upon the statement fas< rfay, "I will raise 
 him up at the last day," — the words of Jesus, — and then to overthrow that ar- 
 gument, he turns and quotes from Hebrews, "Hath in these last days," and from 
 John's testimony concerning "these last days." Now I would like to submit this 
 point to any intelligent child, who should read these three testimonies, v The 
 testimony of Jesus, when he spoke of the resurrection, was "Marvel not that I 
 said unto you, all that are in their graves shall hear his voice ;" when Martha 
 came to Jesus he said of her brother, "Thy brother shall rise again." Martha 
 said, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection, at the last day." Martha 
 did not express any other idea, in the using of these words "last day," than that 
 
116 PORSQUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 of their pointing out a time future from them, afar off, the time of the resurrec- 
 tion, whenever that may be, nor did Jesus correct her. Several others used tW 
 phrase Paul does, or a similar one, "in these last days," and I repeat what I said 
 before, they were the last days to them, the same as these are the last days to us. 
 Should this earth stand a thousand years longer, people living then would, from 
 friend Shinn's standpoint, look back to our speeches, should we be so fortunate, 
 or unfortunate, as to have our words and thoughts recorded and preserved, and 
 would ask of these men of a thousand years ago, they thought they were in the 
 last days ; for here is a brother who used the phrase in the time that he wa» 
 living "in these last days," and that a thousand years ago. Yet Sir, such a use 
 of this phrase now would be a correct use, on the same principle on which the 
 apostle Paul used the phrase, ''these last days" then; those days then were "these- 
 last days" to him. These days, will not be the last days a thousand years hence; 
 but they are now "these last days." 
 
 The brother gives the definition of angel and spirit, and wants to know if I 
 try to make an argument upon that. If he has a mind to find fault with Broth- 
 er Paul, the time may come when Paul will answer him. An angel is spirit, or 
 a spirit;- man also is spirit, or a spirit; but neither man as such, nor spirit as 
 such, is necessarily an angel. Angel is in the Latin angelus, Greek aggelos, sig- 
 nifying primarily a messenger, and changes neither its form nor its signification 
 materially in either the Anglo-Saxon, German, Danish, Italian, or French lan- 
 guages. The use of it in connection with Paul's appeal, is true to that definition. 
 An angel is sometimes a messenger, spoken of particularly as such. We, at least 
 I, speak of all beings that have life in themselves, and say of them that they are 
 spirit. I am glad our friend read from Brother Joseph on that point. You 
 might have read a little farther. Sir, and you would have learned just what we 
 do believe on this question. You would not only have learned that "man is 
 spirit," but you would have also learned that the elements are eternal, and that 
 spirit and element inseparably united, receive a fullness of joy; and that, when 
 separated, they can not receive a fullness of joy. We do not believe, that he 
 who created our bodies, and placed the spirit within them, created them to live 
 but a few years, or perhaps a few months, days, hours, minutes, or seconds, if 
 even to live till birth at all, and then or afterward to die, and be done with. 
 We believe that God does no such imperfect work. We believe that He is too 
 good, and too wise, and his workmanship too perfect for such undeveloped or 
 imperfect results. 
 
 The brother quotes for you the twentieth chapter of Luke, from the thirty- 
 fourth to the thirty-eighth verse, and expresses surprise that I quoted that or 
 introduced it, and well he may do, for I never quoted it. Which has the ar- 
 gument upon it, I do not know. I will leave that for him to say; for I made no 
 reference to it, and did not intend to do so for the present, nor shall I now dO' 
 so. I may save it as return fire for some of the big guns the brother has re- 
 served, which he has hinted about. 
 
 The brother quotes for us the testimony of Job, nineteenth chapter, and 
 leaves out the words printed in italics, "For I know (that) my Redeemer liveth, 
 and (that) he shall stand at the latter (day) upon the earth ; and (though) after 
 my skin, (worms) destroy this (body), yet in my flesh shall I see God." I 
 would like the gentleman to open his Bible, and read that again, and see if there 
 is not a mistake somewhere, either in his reading or interpretation. There cer- 
 tainly is a mistake somewhere on that question. Sir. I read it before just as it- 
 is in our standard authority in this debate, as it stands in King James' transla- 
 tion. He reads it, "For I know — my Redeemer liveth, and he shall stand at 
 the latter — upon the earth : and — after my skin — destroy this — ^yet in my flesh 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 117 
 
 shall I see God: whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and 
 not another," and thinks thereby to overthrow Job's testimony for the resurrec- 
 tion. But we see that, even leaving out all the italicised words, Job yet declares 
 he will see God IN HIS ELESH. If he sees God in his flesh, is there any 
 possibility of gathering from this statement, the argument that he will not have 
 his body? Talk about the body not being involved in the resurrection of Job, 
 and yet in his flesh he is to see God! Who cannot see that the flesh spoken of 
 here is the flesh of his body? What do we understand was the reason why the 
 translators placed the word "body" after the word "this?" Was it not simply 
 because that was the plain and evident sense of the passage? "This" what? 
 What should be destroyed? Evidently, this body; hence the translators have 
 ■supplied the proper ellipses. 
 
 The brother tells us the true man is a spirit entity. Of coure he is; but is 
 he not also something more? He is not spirit entity only. I claim to be a true 
 man. Sir ; and I am sure there is something more solid about me than mere 
 spirit. There is something besides spirit here. There are flesh and bones here, 
 and these. Sir, are mine, dfid part of me. 
 
 Quoting for us the testimony, that God created man in his own image, and 
 that in his own likeness created he him, he says that man is therefore a spirit 
 entity. He might also have quoted for us the testimony that God made man 
 out of the dust of the ground. What, Sir, did he make out of the dust of the 
 ground? Man. What; the "true man" of our brother? the spirit entity? 
 This creation. Sir, was the body. That same body, Sir, shall die, that which was 
 made out of the dust of the ground. What then phall be resurrected. We read 
 here, "Dust thou art, and to dust thou shalt return." The same that was made 
 from the dust, will return to the dust; the same that returns to the dust, will 
 be called forth from the dust; that is, on general principles. 
 
 The brother tells you, after quoting Job, the Psalms, and Paul, in his sec- - 
 ond epistle to the Corinthians,- that the body is but the house, or the frame the 
 spirit dwells in. In one sense only is this true. God placed the spirit of man 
 within him. The ancients sometimes spoke of their bodies as being a part of 
 themselves. Their bodies being of the earth, earthy, had ^ die; but they will 
 ■come forth again and have new life infused into them, when the earth and all 
 things therein reach their higher positions, and are perfected according to the 
 wisdom of God; that is, all that is good. 
 
 I pass on now to the consideration of the theory I was presenting. I had 
 read for you the testimony of Job, and I will now read for you the testimony of 
 David, concerning the resurrection or restitution. 
 
 Psalm 49: 15. — "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave; for he will 
 receive me." 
 
 There are some who have argued from this, "God will redeem my sovl from 
 the power of the grave," that it does not refer to the resurrection. "Does the 
 grave hold any power over the soul 1" they inquire. We read in King James' 
 translation that God, after he had created man, "breathed into his nostrils the 
 "Ireath of life; &nA man became a living soul." Before this "breath of life" 
 was infused into it, the body was called "MAN;" but when the breath of life 
 was received into the body, the rnxxn became a living soul. The body, then. Sir, 
 was at least a part of the "living soul." The "breath of life" was not the at- 
 mosphere, for that, before this breathing process took place, necessarily occupied 
 the interminable avenues, ducts, and pores of its organism, or it would have beeu 
 <!rushed by atmosheric pressure. The "breath of life" was not then merely the 
 aerial particles of the atmosphere; but something distinct, giving life, which the 
 atmospheric breath could not do, and that something is necessary to life, some- 
 
118 FORSGUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 thing without which the body is dead. The apostle James says the body with- 
 out the spirit is dead; I conclude then, as another translation renders it, that 
 when Grod breathed into man the "breath of life," he put a spirit within him. 
 The spirit within him, "Man," spirit and lody, "BECAME A LIVING 
 SOUL." Then, at death, the soul is in the power of the grave, because the 
 body, a part of this once living soul, is confined there. Hence the statement of 
 David, "Grod will redeem my soul from the power of the grave; for he shall re- 
 ceive me." Not my spirit, nor my body, but "ME ;" the perfect, living soul;, 
 body and spirit. 
 
 Again, Isaiah in his twenty-sixth chapter, beginning with the nineteenth 
 verse, writes: 
 
 "Thy dead mm, shall live, together with my dead Ixdy shall they arise. Awake and sing, 
 ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast ovt the dead."' 
 
 What is it that is spoken of here, that shall be cast from the earth ? Is it 
 not that which shall live hereafter? "Thy dead men shall live, together with 
 my dead body shall they arise." Certainly, then, it is the body that shall be 
 literally restored. I do not say that the literal body shall be restored, but that 
 the body shall be literally restored; and- 1 urge the argument and the claim, that 
 the Scriptures, in all these points I have presented, bear me out in taking this 
 position. We notice again that statement, "Thy dead men shall live, together 
 with my dead body shall they arise," as I am aware that by some it is argued, 
 and it may be argued here that this has reference to a restoration of Israel to a 
 condition of blessedness; but I do not see how the dead body of a man can have 
 any representative fitness at all in this case, or how, if it was merely thought 
 or intention, the thought personified as "my dead body," can be properly em- 
 ployed with reference to the restoration of a people to conditions of life from, 
 death, before their death takes place. 
 
 I now call your attention to the statement of Jesus to Martha, John 11 : 
 23, 24: 
 
 "Jesns saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that 
 he shall rise again in the resurrection, at the last day." 
 
 Now, Sir, what was the understanding among the people at that time when 
 Jesus addressed Martha ? You have heard from the commencement of this dis- 
 cussion, that we should be governed in the interpretation of Scripture, by the 
 understanding of the language Had by those to whom it was addressed at the 
 time the language was spoken. It is a correct rule, and we must be governed, 
 in respect to the understanding which Martha and others would have of the Sa- 
 vior'S'Words, by this rule. 
 
 Josephus writes concerning the resurrection, and connects with it the very 
 same judgment day spoken of in this discussion, and advocated by me. In his 
 Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades, Josephus says : 
 
 "We have therefore believed that the body will be raised again; for although it be di^ 
 solved, it ia not perished. * * * For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brougl^ 
 before God. * * * Minos and Ehadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, 
 but he whom God even the Father hath glorified. * * » This person, exercising the righteous 
 judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one accord- 
 ing to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, 
 they shall send forth one voice, and say just is thy judgment." 
 
 In introducing this subject, Josephus informs the Greeks that God hath 
 determined to "make a resurrection of all men from the dead, not procurring a 
 transmigration of souls from one body to another, but raising again those very 
 bodies, which you Greeks, seeing [them] to be dissolved, do not believe." 
 
 Josephus is described by Scaliger, in the prologue to his De Emendaiim 
 Temporum, as "the greatest Ibver of truth of all writers," as one whom we may. 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 119 
 
 safely believe "because his fidelity and his compass of learning are everywhere 
 conspicuous," It was then a settled principle of the faith of the Pharisees, and 
 of those who believed in the resurrection, that the resurrection would consist in 
 the bringing back the body, and uniting together body and spirit once more aa 
 "a living soul," and Josephus in this discourse but expresses their settled convic- 
 tion, when he says : 
 
 ""We have not rashly believed [in] the resurrection of the body; for although it be dis- 
 solved for a time on account of the original transgression, it exists still, * * * and to every 
 body shall its own soul [spirit] be restored." 
 
 Let us then. Sir, be governed by the "rule of interpretation," and with Jo- 
 sephus as expositor of the manner in which the resurrection was understood, 
 what did Martha mean by the exprfession, "I know that he shall rise again in 
 the resurrection at the last day?" "We understand from this quotation from 
 Josephus, that he believed there would be a restoration of all men to the bodyj 
 that they would then, in the body, be brought before the judgment seat, and be 
 judged. Martha, in common with others of the Jews, believed this, and Jesus 
 said to her, "Thy brother#AaZZ rise again." In answer to him she said, Yes, "I 
 know that he shall * * * at the last day," — at the the resurrection of all men 
 we believe he will rise. This was the thought expressed by the reply made to 
 him. Jesus did not correct that thought ; nor did he tell her it was then the 
 last day, and that the recall to life Lazarus was then to receive would be that 
 resurrection; nor that that resurrection, instead of being at a future day, always 
 had been, and then was a progressive resurrection. He might have corrected 
 her, had the thought she expressed been wrong. He might have told her the 
 using of that phrase "last day," was improper; but he did not. 
 
 I will now quote Acts 24 : 15. Paul declares that he had "hope toward 
 Grod, which they themselves also allow, that theje shall be a resurrection," not 
 there is now being, not there has already been, not after this there is to be going 
 continually on, not the progressive future tense, but entirely, absolutely, the fu- 
 ture, there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. , 
 
 And again, in the twenty-sixth chapter, fifth and sixth verses, speaking of 
 the acquaintance with the Jews with his former manner of life, he says : 
 
 ""W"hioh knew me from the beginning, (if they would testify), that after the most straight- 
 est sect of our religion, I lived a Pharisee. And now I stand, and am judged for the hope of the 
 promise, made of God unto our fathers." 
 
 In 24 : 15, he states this "hope" was touching the resurection; and he said 
 also, twenty-first verse, "Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in 
 question by you this day." Consider this in connection with fifteenth verse, 
 "Now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our 
 fathers," and the conclusion must be that Paul then believed that there was 
 ground for hope in the promise made, because there should be a resurrection of 
 the dead. 
 
 The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead, did not be- 
 lieve that there were either angels or spirits, or life hereafter. "With our friends, 
 some of the materialists of the pf esent age, they seemed to delight in the theory 
 of unconsciousness after death; and did not accept the doctrine of the resurrec- 
 tion. They claimed that the body dies, and that then we are done with. No 
 further life, no further existence for us. Paul was reasoning with them, after 
 being called in question by them. Seasoning on — what ? The subject of a 
 progressive resurrection ? Or on the subject of a resurrection at some futitre, 
 some especial time or times? The answer does not come from the statement 
 made by Paul in this place; but it certainly does come from what we before 
 read. Paul did not change or explain away the testimony of the prophets and 
 
120 FOBSGUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 the Psalmist David, as friend Shinn tries to do; but all the way through his 
 statement, the argument is made in their favor. Hear his declaration : 
 
 "This I confess- unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the 
 God of my fathers, teWeving aB things which are written in the law and in t?ie prophets: and have 
 hope toward G-od, which they themsekies also allow, that there shall le a resurrection of the 
 dead, both of the just and unjust." 
 
 And again in the seventh and eighth verses of the twenty-sixth chapter, the 
 apostle further says, "Unto which promise," — what promise was that? The 
 promise of Grod made unto the fathers, that the dead should be raised ; "unto 
 which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to 
 come, for which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. Why 
 should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that Grod should raise the 
 dead." 
 
 Again, Hebrews 11 : 19, as illustrating the ground of this hope, Abraham 
 "accounting that God was able to raise him [Isaa'c] up, even from the dead; 
 from whence also he received him in a figure," offered his son Isaac, and thus 
 exemplified his confidence in God, and in the promise of God, prefiguring the 
 hope of Israel in the resurrection, as I just quoted concerning that hope from 
 Paul. 
 
 The evidence from the testimony presented to us is this : 
 
 Finthj. — That the fathers believed in a resurrection. 
 
 Secondly. — That God ^a,di promised to them that resurrection. 
 
 Thirdly. — That Paul and the brethren had hope in that promise. 
 
 Fourthly. — That he was called in question becaicse he had hope in this 
 promise. 
 
 Fifthly. — That the assurance of the fulfillment of that promise had been 
 given by the raising up of Jesije from the dead. 
 
 And Sixthly. — He closes this connected series of thought by an arguinent- 
 um ad judicium, "Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you that 
 God should raise the dead?" If God has made the promise that he would raise 
 all men from the dead; if the fathers believed that promise; if in fulfillment of 
 that promise he raised Jesus from the dead, why should you doubt f "Why 
 should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the 
 dead ?" A very pertinent argument ! 
 
 In Hebrews 11 : 35, Paul testifies: 
 
 "Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting 
 deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection." 
 
 What was this better resurrection ? I hope we shall learn what the views 
 of our brother are in relation to this matter. I will give you mine frankly. 
 The resurrection in which those received their dead to life again, was a resur- 
 rection to mortality. Lazarus was raised from the dead; but only in the sense 
 of his being raised to receive temporarily a fresh lease of life. In the same sense 
 one of old, who was on his sick bed and expected to die, prayed to the Lord, and 
 the Lord gfive him a fresh lease of life, to continue only however for a certain 
 number of years. Just in this sense were these spoken of by Paul received to 
 life again, being received through faith. The apostle Paul tells us that others 
 exercised their faith, and endured their trials, that they might obtain a better 
 resuricction. 
 
 What follows this thought, "a better resurrection?" It seems as though 
 something hinges upon that which ought to be considered. In the thirty-ninth 
 verse of this same eleventh chapter of Hebrews, Paul informs them that: 
 
 . "These all having obtained a good report through mh'recevjed not the promise: God 
 havmg provided some better thing for us." = piomioo. >ju 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 121 
 
 Why better? Because a promise of a resurrection to continuity of life had 
 been made, not a resurrection to mortality, nor a progressive' one; but one to 
 take place at the great day, at the "last day" of their bondage to death; at the 
 time when the great power of God shall be exercised,— his miracle-working, 
 wondrous power,— when he shall call forth the righteous dead to their inheri- 
 tance; at the time when the grave shall cast forth its dead. Tlien, those who 
 are raised will not be raised to mortality; but to immortality. Those were still 
 mortal of whose being raised Paul speaks; their resurrection had been only to 
 mortality; but in the better resurrection, those who are raised will be raised to 
 immortality, will have become immortal beings. This will be the resurrection 
 unto immortality and eternal life reserved for those who shall be found worthy; 
 for those who shall have waited patiently for it; for those who shall have trust- 
 ed in Grod and have had hope in his promise, and who having this hope in 
 them shall have purified themselves. They looked for the better resurrection; 
 and when the dead shall be cast forth, their bodies, being raised, shall no more 
 be subject to decay; they shall no more have pain and suffering, neither shall 
 they die any more; buti*hey shall rest forever-more with the angels, in the pres- 
 ence of God. 
 
 "Time." 
 
 Elder Shinn's reply to Elder Forscutt's second argument is as follows : ' 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 It certainly does appear to me, that our brother has introduced a great deal 
 of matter here that is not definite, so far as the proposition is concerned; but 
 we shall endeavor to review briefly, of course, all that he has said. He first 
 starts out by telling us, that he does not believe in a progressive resurrection, 
 bat believes in a resurrection at stated times. He does not believe in a resur- 
 rection day. 
 
 I presume then according to this view, that the dead may all have been 
 resurrected up to the present, by having been resurrected at different times. I 
 assert in this connection, that I believe in a progressive resurrection. I think 
 we will come to understand each other by and by. I have something more I 
 wish to say upon this subject of a progressive resurrection, but not just yet. 
 My brother affirmed in his first speech, that resurrection meant a bringing 
 back to life of that which was dead. 
 
 He grumbles because I quoted Brother Lewis' testimony. He is certainly 
 a very scholarly man, and his testimony is worth something. I gave Green- 
 field's definition which is a rising up, a resurrection. You will see he uses it in 
 the sense of rising, not being brought back to life from the dead, or a resurrec- 
 tion of the dead. Other evidence I gave in this connection you will remember. 
 I gave from Bishop Newton, that it never signified the resurrection of the same 
 body.] 
 
 "Anaatasia usually denotes an existence beyond the grave." — Dr. Dwight.j 
 "Anastasis denotes, properly, no more than a renewal of life to them, (the dead), in what- 
 ever manner this happens." — Dr. Campbell. 
 
 Then I gave "Webster : 
 
 "A rising again; chiefly, the revival of the dead of the human race." 
 Not their dead bodies. John 5 : 28. The brother quotes this passage very 
 triumphantly. There is one little matter I wish to call his attention to now, in 
 connection with this: 
 
 "Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming in the which all that are in tlmr graves — " 
 The brother quoted it both times. Let me call attention to the fact, it is 
 
122 FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 not their graves, but the graves. The brother so quoted it, and read it from the. 
 book. I call his slttention to the fact now, that it is not their graves, but the 
 graves. Something will depend upon this by and by, in the bringing out of 
 these questions. But he says it is not a resurrection to immortality; he has 
 taken no such position. Why then introduce it? It might as well have never 
 been introduced, if it has no reference to a resurrection to immortality. I ex- 
 pect him to prove his proposition in this debate, that they are raised to immor- 
 tality. Mark it now, my brother must not take any other position upon this pas- 
 sage of Scripture during this discussion. He says it has no reference to immor- 
 tality. 
 
 He does not like my view upon the meaning of "last day." I read from 
 the Scripture in regard to it, saying : 
 
 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the. fathers by 
 the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son Jesus Christ." 
 
 Does that mean the last days to come for a thousand or ten thousand years 
 oflF? The word of the Lord does not take that position. My brother takes it 
 because he has to, to sustain his doctrine. I say now, "in these last days," does 
 it mean that which is to take place ten thousand years in the future ? No, you 
 all say, it means now. 
 
 "Mieahi 4: 1. — "But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house 
 of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountain." 
 
 This alludes to the government of the world by the Messiah. To the Mes- 
 siah's reign. Isaiah 2 : 2, gives the same testimony. Now "no man can come 
 unto me, except the Father draw him." Again, "at the last day," during my 
 gospel reign, during the gospel age, you shall have this moral resurrection. I 
 will raise him up when he comes to the knowledge of the truth, which brings 
 life to the believer therein. 
 
 It seems to me very singular indeed, that the brother should try to make it 
 appear, that Peter would say as he did, "This is that which was spoken of by the 
 prophet Joel, saying, in the last days;" that phrase, "last days," used by Peter, 
 had any other meaning than what it evidently has. It would certainly have 
 the same meaning, the same as the other apostles meanj and is that a thousand 
 or ten thousand years yet in the future. No, Sir, it can not be. It meant the 
 days in which they lived, not days to come. The age and generation then, not 
 the age and generation to come ten thousand years in the future. So, my 
 brother, you will bear in mind, that there is a little difference between this and 
 that. "i%ese last days" were the days in which the apostle spake. Away back 
 there when this thing was spoken of. 
 
 The difference between us on angels and spirits. Why, my brother, are 
 not spirits angels. Then, I maintain they may be messengers. The meaning I 
 gave of angel you will remember. I told him it simply meant messenger. A 
 spirit may be a messenger. Was not there an angel sent to Joseph Smith? 
 Was not that Nephi? Therefore, according to my jbrother's last speech, he is 
 not a believer in Joseph Smith. I believe there are distinct classes of beings, 
 but because I believe spirits are angels, do not think that I believe all spirits are 
 angels. A spirit may become an angel. All men may be messengers. All that 
 are sons of God, certainly will become angels, messengers. 
 
 The true man is a spirit man. He believes that in a certain sense, but 
 thinks we must have this old body to have the true man there. I am glad we 
 are a unit upon that. It is only a little matter, that stands in connection with 
 that, that n^ikes the point of difference between us, which we will notice by and 
 by. Luke 20. The brother says I read too much. True; for it proves the 
 resurrection is progressive, as I understand it : 
 
FORSGUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 123 
 
 "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living; for all live unto him." 
 How plain this view seems when we read the passage before this, "I am the 
 God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob." The force of this is seen when 
 we remember, that he was then the God of Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob. 
 They were alive unto him, although they had been dead nearly twenty centuries. 
 Jfotwithstanding this, Jesus speaks of them as being alive, and he was the God 
 of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Away back there in the days of Jesus Christ, 
 this view of a progressive resurrection was presented. When the Lord appear- 
 ed unto Mos»s in the burning bush, he said, "I am the God of thy father, the 
 God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." They were then 
 alive unto God in the Spirit world, the spirit state. We shall show you that 
 they have a spiritual body, by and by. I am glad this truth was reiterated by 
 Jesus* himself in Luke 20. I do not blame my brother for grumbling at this. 
 It does not suit him very much. I can not help it. It does not suit his theory. 
 I can not help that. 
 
 Job 19, he calls our attention to again, and says there must be some mis- 
 take. Let us read it agSn. It may be I have not read it just right. I want 
 to be fair and candid in regard to this matter : 
 
 "For I know my Redeemer liveth, and he shall stand at the latter npon the earth. And 
 after my akin worms destroy this, yet in my flesh shall I see God, whom I shall see for my- 
 self, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another, though my reins be consumed within me." 
 
 The idea is, that there was some disease preying upon Job. Now the argu- 
 ment is, Job should see God in his flesh, "Yet in my flesh shall I see God." I 
 turned to the last chapter of Job, and showed my brother that he did see him in 
 his flesh. Job was still alive. But he predicates the idea of the resurrection 
 of Job's material body, upon the fact that he was to see God in his flesh. You 
 have lost it, my brother. He did see him, my brother. He saw him in the 
 flesh before he died. 
 
 Job 42:5. — "I have heard of thee by the liearing of the ear; but now mine eye 
 
 We think there is no mistake about it. We may look in vain for the ful- 
 fillment of this prediction in the future world, for it was fulfilled while Job lived. 
 Psalm 49 : 15. I do not know that I ought to notice that. I do not see that it 
 is very much to the point, or has much to do in this matter : 
 
 "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me." 
 
 I believe that as much as my brother does. What is meant by the soul? 
 Is it the body? Why did he quote that passage if it is not the body? I be- 
 lieve that the soul will be raised from the power of the grave. 
 
 Isaiah 26. I expected my brother would notice it. How much time 
 have I? 
 
 Moderator. Fifteen minutes. 
 
 Elder Shinn. I will review as long as I have time. I want to notice 
 my brothers's views, candidly and fairly, in this discussion ; for I desire to be 
 fair and honest, if any one does. I hope that we shall be frank and candid with 
 each other to the close of this discussion. 
 
 Isaiah 2G: 19. — "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. 
 Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth 
 shall cast out the dead." 
 
 Now it will be necessary for me to go back to the twelfth verse, and I ex- 
 pect it will be necessary for me to leave out the italics. The Lord is spoken to 
 by his own people : 
 
 "Lord, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. O 
 Lord our God, Lords besides thee have had dominion over us; by thee only will we make 
 
124 FORSCUTT AND SEINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 mention of thy name. Dead, [tlie God's, you know, who had dominion over them, he here 
 declares have been desRi], they shall not hve; deceased, they shall not rise; therefore hast 
 thou visited and destroyed them; [that is, the Gods who have had dominion over them], and 
 made all their memory to perish. Thou hast increased the nation, lord, thou hast increased 
 the nation; [mark it now, this is a national matter, he is speaking of the nation]; thou art 
 glorified ; thou hadst removed far all the ends of the earth. Lord, in trouble have they visited 
 thee; they poured out a prayer thy chastening upon them. Like as a woman with child, 
 draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, crieth out in her pangs; so have we been 
 in thy sight, Lord. [We. Who? The people here the prophet spoke of, the Jews. They 
 have been in pain.] Thy dead shall live, my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye 
 that d-well in dust; for thy dew, the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 
 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thy- 
 self for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For behold, the Lord cometh out 
 of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity : the earth also shall dis- 
 close her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." 
 
 A national event, clear and plain as can be. It has not one particle of 
 reference to the resurrection of the dead to immortality. It is strictly a nation- 
 al matter, as any one can see who will read it candidly and carefully over. 
 
 John 11 :24. Martha said she knew her brother should rise again in the 
 resurrection, at the last day. Then the brother reads Josephus to introduce the 
 idea here that was among the people then. Not among those who strictly read 
 and understood the Bible; however, it did not mean that; but to those who did 
 not strictly understand that. It is an argument against . himself. He does not 
 believe in a progressive resurrection, but one that takes place at stages along. I 
 wonder which will be raised first? He does not believe the popular idea noticed 
 by Josephus, not a bit more than I believe it will be at stages; so he discards, 
 his own author. 
 
 1 call your attention to the twenty-fifth verse of the chapter referred to. 
 What does Jesus say in reply to Martha ? 
 
 "I am the resurrection, and the life ; he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet 
 shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou 
 this?" 
 
 The resurrection was clearly different, from what my brother had presented, 
 as I understand him to present it. Paul says, however, that there shall be a 
 resurrection of the dead. Grant it, my brother. And at the time of the resur- 
 rection, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and un- 
 just. The brother urges, that it was to be a resurrection future from the time 
 that Paul lived. Paul's resurrection is progressive. It will continue to be a 
 resurrection of mankind, the same as it has been. The brother's view is, that 
 all mankind shall be resurrected; but the time he says is 'future from the apos- 
 tles' day. A part of them had been raised, however, when the words upon 
 which the brother places his point, were uttered. The brother places his point 
 upon shall he. We readily grant it. It is all right enough. It was future 
 from that time. But mark the difference between "of the dead," and "from 
 among the dead ones." See Emphatic Diaglott. Does it mean dead bodies? 
 That is the point in view. Does it mean dead bodies ? I maintain it does not. 
 
 Hebrews 11 : 19. He speaks there of a resurrection to mortality. "Women 
 received their dead brought to life again," etc. The brother talks about not ac- 
 cepting deliverance, that they might obtain the better resurrection ; that is, be- 
 come immortal. The better resurrection he believes to be a resurrection to im- 
 mortality. We are perfectly agreed in regard to that passage of .Scripture. I 
 believe I have reviewed as candidly and carefully as I have time to, at present, 
 my brother's arguments. I will now continue my counter argument. 
 
 Third argument. The true man is the inner man. 
 
 2 Corinthians 4 : 16. We want to find the teachings of the apostle Paul, 
 what they were truly. 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 125 
 
 "For which cause we faint not; hut though eur outward man perish, yet the inner man is 
 renewed day by day." 
 
 Mark you here, the apostle speaks of an outward and an inner man. 
 
 Ephesians 3 : 1-H6. — "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus 
 Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that he would grant you, ac- 
 cording to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the irmer 
 man." 
 
 The strengthening of the spirit is to take place in the inner man. 
 
 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. — "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are 
 at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight): we 
 are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the 
 Lord." 
 
 See how clearly that "loe" stands out from the body, "(For we walk by 
 faith, not by sight): we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent 
 from the body, and to be present with the Lord." The true man, the inner 
 man, the spirit entity, which is in the image and likeness of God, which wiU 
 live forever. 
 
 2 Corinthians 5 : 1-4. — ifcFor we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were 
 dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 
 For in this [that is, the fleshly house, the body] we 'groan,*[earnestly desiring to be clothed 
 upon with our house which is from heaven." 
 
 Is it the same house ? The house we will be clothed upon with, is this 
 earthly house ? No, no, it can not be; for "in this earthly house we groan, 
 earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven. If 
 so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked." See how independent 
 that is from the inner man, the true man. Brother Smith calls the man, the 
 true man, spirit. The apostle Paul says : 
 
 "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not that we would be un- 
 clothed but clothed upon; that mortality might be swallowed up of life." 
 
 This mortal body is to be put off, and we are to have a spiritual body. 
 That we will talk about in due time. This inner man, this spirit entity, will be 
 clothed upon with a spiritual body, and this arising, anastasis, resurrection, is 
 the passing from mortality to immortality ; the being clothed upon with that house 
 which is from heaven. This house which is from heaven is eternal, and is to be 
 the spiritual body in which the true man, spirit entity, is to dwell. 
 
 2 Corinthians 4: 18. — "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things 
 which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not 
 seen are eternal." 
 
 Hebrews 11:3. — "Through faith we understand the worlis were framed by the word 
 of God, so that things which are seen, are not made of things which do appear." 
 
 Now I can not help but believe here, the apostle speaks so plainly of that 
 which is eternal, that it is the inner man, this spirit man, this spirit entity, 
 which is eternal. "That which is seen is temporal," says the apostle; but "that- 
 which is'not seen is eternal." Therefore I must believe that the spirit man 
 which is invisible, is eternal. The true man is invisible. Repulsion is invisible. 
 We find the powers and forces in the universe, electricity is invisible, but it is a. 
 known law, and for aught I know, the world's material was drawn out of that. 
 The element? that composed this earth, and all the planets, for aught I know. 
 
 Time. ,, 
 
126 FOR S GUT T AND SHINE'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 Elder Forscutt's third argument was as follows : 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 In tlie prosecution of the debate now pending, I shall first call your atten- 
 tion, this afternoon, to some of the remarks of Brother Shinn, when last address- 
 ing us. The brother rightly states my position, in that I do not believe in what 
 is called a progressive resurrection; but he does not correctly give the idea that 
 I would have you receive, in relation to this belief of mine. 
 
 While I discard the idea of what is called "a progressive resurrection," 
 which he has hinted at to-day as being believed in by himself, and which is be- 
 lieved in generally by the people whom I suppose him to represent, I yet do be- 
 lieve in a progressive state hereafter, as respects the spirit, while separated from 
 the body, and as respects the united soul-man, after that which we call the resur- 
 rection shall have taken place, when the body and spirit shall again be united, 
 and become one grand whole, what the Scriptures call "a living soul." 
 
 He again refers to Greenfield's interpretation of the Grreek word anastam; 
 also to Webster's definition of the word resurrection. I do not see that he 
 makes anything for his view, however, by this "review;" for Greenfield inter- 
 prets anastasis as signifying a resurrection. If anastasis be a rising up, a resur- 
 rection, whatever may be the gentleman's view in regard to the meaning of the 
 word resurrection, the subject of this debate being the literal resurrection, I 
 shall certainly avail myself of the word Resurrection, according to the Webster- 
 ian definition, as well as the true interpretation of anastasis. Webster defines 
 the resurrection, as being "A rising again, especially the rising again from the 
 dead; from re, again, and surgere, to rise." As we use the word, it signifies, 
 the rising again of the human race. The gentleman adds a word to Webster's 
 definition, and says these are not the literally dead, but the morally dead. Now 
 I am desirous of knowing, by what right, my brother, scripturally or philological- 
 ly, you make this change, and instead of saying simply, "from the dead," say 
 from the m,orally dead. 
 
 The brother wants to know why I quoted some testimonies of Scripture, to 
 prove a resurrection, when they had no reference to a resurrection to immortal- 
 ity. I quoted them. Sir, for two purposes; first for the purpose of showing the 
 power by which a resurrection was effected to a mortal state; and secondly to 
 base thereon the proposition that the very same power which called life back in- 
 to the mortal frame, though it was still mortal, — that that same power could call 
 forth the body from the power of death, and infuse therein the power of life in 
 perpetuity, or eternal life. Whether I make the point or not, relative to it, this 
 is the chief object I had in view. 
 
 The brother still harps upon the term "these last days." He has several 
 times spoken about presenting arguments "before this intelligent congregation." I 
 have never yet spoken about the intelligence of the audience, and perhaps you 
 may think I do not appreciate you as much as he does; but I think he pays a 
 very poor compliment to your "intelligence," and proves that he does no? think 
 you are quite so intelligent as he would flatter you that he does, when he 
 will try to make you believe that the "these last days" of the apostles' ao-e have 
 reference to the same period as "the last day" of prophecy; to try to make you 
 believe this is, I think, a very poor compliment indeed to your iatelligence. 
 
 In reference to Luke twentieth chapter, I reminded the gentleman that I 
 
.FOSSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 127 
 
 had not yet quoted that, and corrected his reference to my quoting it by urging 
 that I had not referred to it at all. He calls attention to it in his last speech, 
 and says that I said he had read too much. Now I would be willing 
 to submit it to our reporters, to see if they can find any such words, or any such 
 idea having been uttered by me, or to you as having been so understood by you, 
 as that I charged the gentleman with having read too much. I would like to 
 have had him read a little more. I said this— I had not yet named it, but in- 
 dicated that I expected to do so; and was reserving it against some of the "bin- 
 guns" my brother hinted about in his speech previous. I thinkfyou will all re^- 
 member it now. 
 
 The brother calls our attention again to Job. ' I must look at it once more, 
 for he arg^es that he has in fact cleared all my argument away. Job, chapters 
 nineteenth and forty-second. The nineteenth chapter we will notice first, and 
 as the standard of reference is King James' translation, I submit that . these 
 words supplied by the translators, even though they may not be a part of the 
 originaltext, and yet a part of the text in evidence, seeing they are found in that 
 translation ; and I therefore submit them in their entirety. 
 
 _ Yet — ^we will notice how the gentleman's claim that they are answered by the 
 testimony quoted from the last chapter of Job is sustained, "0 that my words were 
 now written ! that they were printed in a book !" — I will pay a compliment to 
 the "intelligence" of the congregation just for once. I suppose this congregation 
 is sufficiently intelligent to know, in these intelligent times especially, that it 
 was customary to write or make indentures upon the rocks with iron tools, such 
 as is called here an iron pen ; also that into this incision, or writing, molten lead 
 was then poured, and that thus testimony was preserved from destruction in the 
 engravings made in the rock. I have heard the brethren of difi'erent churches 
 quote this as though Job had said "laid in the rocks forever;" but his words 
 are, "That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock forever." 
 He^had a desire that his words should be recorded iii a firm and lasting manner. 
 
 The brother told us in his last and first speech that Job was sick ; had some 
 disease, and that the event of which he spoke was to have its fulfillment in a 
 few months from the time he spoke. What, he was to take the iron pen and 
 engrave in the rock, and then take lead, melt it and pour into the engraving, to 
 tell the people that he had been sick six months before that time ! ! Our friend 
 does not pay very much o:£a compliment to Job's "intelligence," surely. 
 
 Job, Sir, had reference to something that was afar ofi' in the future; to 
 something a long period in the future; to something not to receive its fulfillment 
 while he should live in the flesh; to something in reference to that period of 
 which himself refers, when he says, "I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that 
 he shall stand AT THE LATTER DAY upon the earth." 
 
 Job was a believer in the God of Abraham. Job was one of those who 
 lived contemporaneously with Abram, or at most was removed only a short peri- 
 od from him. For a note to the Greek version of the Seventy, he is considered 
 a son of Zave, a son of Esau, and named as Jobab, king of Edom, an Arab prince 
 or emir, who had learned the plan of salvation sufficiently to look for and expect 
 a Redeemer ; who had been taught of the Lord, and whose knowledge of the 
 planetary system, of the government of the universe, was so accurately conveyed 
 to him by Deity, that expressions of scientific value and import are found in his 
 book which are in advance of the utterances of the proud scientists of to-day. 
 Job's descent from heaven-instructed patriarchs, and his perfect life before God, 
 as well as his exalted rank and heavenly communions, had given him such reli- 
 able evidences, as that with all his soul he believed in a God, and in a Redeemer. 
 
 When we take these facts into consideration, we understand the reason 
 
128 FORSGUTT AND SEINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 why he uttered the words, "0 that my words were now written ! O that they 
 were printed in a book ! that they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the 
 rock forever ! For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at 
 the latter day upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this 
 body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." 
 
 Having the faith of the servants of God, and realizing the grand truth that 
 his Eedeemer lived, — that though his body should die, it should be called forth 
 again from the tomb, and, made alive, be permitted to stand in the presence of 
 God; — ^realizing this grand truth of the far distant future, how reasonable that 
 he should desire that the rocks should be engraved, and the lead melted and 
 poured into them, to show to future generations that he knew whereof he 
 affirmed. 
 
 The gentleman tells us, however, that in this last chapter of Job, we read 
 that. Job did see the Lord. If he will notice the chronolgy of the book, he wiD 
 find that, according to Ussher, it was written fifteen hundred and twenty years 
 before ChMst. Remember that no man, unless inspired with the Holy Ghost, 
 knoweth God or Christ; in other words, no man, without revelation, knoweth 
 him. It is strange then if Job should receive a revelation imparting to him a 
 knowledge that he should see God, that he should desire that information 
 "graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock forever" and yet that it should 
 only refer to six months hence, that we should read the fulfillment of it in the 
 same book ! But God inspired Job with the power of his Spirit, and by it gave 
 to him a revelation of the knowledge and existence of his Redeemer; a knowl- 
 edge of the power of the resurrection; a knowledge of his restoration from the 
 tomb ; and these things he reasonably desired preserved. Why should he de- 
 sire them preserved, if in the same book we read them, we were to read their 
 fulfillment? Let us see, however, what Job says. The gentleman reads with a 
 great deal of emphasis, "I have heard of Thee with the hearing of the ear; but 
 now mine eye seeth Thee,"" and then tells us that as we have here the evidence 
 that he saw God, therefore this old body of ours need not be taken up again 
 from the earth. I think we had better turn back to the thirty-eighth chap- 
 ter and first verse, and we will then see whether Job did see God or not ; that 
 is, .whether he saw him personally and stood with him, or not, "Then the Lord 
 answered Job" — ^how? By personal appearance? No; "out of the whirl- 
 wind." When Job saw this wonderful display of God's power in nature, in 
 the whirlwind circling around him; and when the voice came out of the whirl- 
 wind, and he realized that the voice was the voice of God, and that he was in 
 the presence of God while in the presence of this wonderful manifestation of 
 power, he exclaimed, "Now mine eye seeth Thee." There is not one word of 
 evidence that either Christ, his Redeemer, or God, persbnally appeared to him. 
 God then speaks to him by his majesty out of the whirlwind; but does not stand 
 with him on the earth. 
 
 Let us look at his former testimony again, "Though after my skin worms 
 destroy this body." The gentleman leaves out the words in italics because they 
 are supplied by the translators, though they were evidently needed to make the 
 sense complete. Let us read it without them, therefore, once more; "And after 
 my skin — destroy this — , yet in my flesh shall I see God." "Destroy this" — 
 What? The gentleman claims that Job had "the smallpox." Wonderful thing 
 for a revelation in God's book to be preserved in lead in the rocks, that Brother 
 Job had the small pox ! The gentleman nervously leaves out the words in ital- 
 ics; so we will supply them according to his explanation instead of the transla- 
 tors, "And though after my skin destroy this smallpox; yet in my flesh shall I 
 see God." Wonderful argument ! Wonderful definition, this! 
 
Missing Page 
 
130 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants 
 of the earth fallen." This is to be their lamentation; but the encouraging re- 
 sponse is, "Thy dead men shall live." Notwithstanding all this trouble, "Thy 
 dead men shall live, together with my. dead bodyshall they arise." Inspired 
 with the hope of redemption from the grave to inherit the promises, Isaiah could 
 make this declaration, "Together with my dead hody shall they arise;" and an- 
 ticipating the mandate of restitution to life, exclaim, "Wake and sing, ye that 
 dwell in dust; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the 
 dead. 
 
 Leaving this, we turn again to the testimony our brother tried to answer in 
 the fifth chapter of Job, twenty-eighth verse; and as this is a favorite quotation 
 of his, we call his attention again to it : 
 
 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all who are in. their graves 
 shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of 
 life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." 
 
 Jesus introduces this statement by saying, "For as the Father hath life in 
 himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." Because his 
 Father, God, hath given unto him to have life in himself, he is enabled to make 
 the promise that the dead shall be brought forth by his power. 
 
 The brother tells us that this is a moral death. He does not accept this as 
 referring to the literally dead. He thinks these morally dead were in their ' 
 moral graves, and that the Savior's idea was, and that the Scriptures furnish the 
 proof that they were to be raised therefrom, and that this is the resurrection 
 here spoken of It is not a new theory that our friend thus puts forth ; but it 
 is certainly a peculiar one. The scripture in question contains neither the adjec- 
 tive, literal nor moral; but by supplying the word moral we make it inconsist- 
 ent, while by supplying the word literal, the sense and harmony are both pre- 
 served. A doctrinal and prophetical declaration ought always to receive a literal 
 interpretation when consistent; never a private one, and a metaphorical one only 
 when it is clear that a metaphor is employed. Let us read it as friend Shinn 
 explains it for us. "The hour is coming, and now is, when the mjoraXly dead 
 shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall m/orvXIy live. 
 * * Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in the which all that in their 
 moral graves shall hear his voice, and shall morally come forth; they that have 
 done good, unto the moral resurrection of moral life; and they that have done 
 evil, unto the mora? resurrection oi moral damnation." We can all see that a 
 moral death and a moral resurrection are inadequate here, and equally so else- 
 where, where death and the resurrection are taught and prefigured. We die 
 literally; we must be raised literally; or the power of death will be greater than 
 the power of life. What is the reason Jesus speaks of two resurrections, if 
 resurrection be mora? only? What kind of a resurrection is a resurrection to 
 moral damnation, or condemnation '{ If condemnation is a state of death, how 
 can one be raised by the power of the resurrection, the power of life, from moral 
 death in sins, to moral death, the resurrection of damnation? 
 
 The terms life and condemnation are expressive of conditions which are to 
 afiect us in the life-state, or in the death state hereafter. There are no such 
 conditions in this moral resurrection, as applying to all. But, Sir, what is moral 
 death? I have yet to find the first word spoken of it in the Bible. I do not 
 know anything about this theory from the Bible; I never read the words moral 
 death, or anything intimating such a death in the Bible, otherwise than meta- 
 phorically. There is a spiritual death, and a natural death referred to; but I 
 do not know anything about this moral death. Of course, the brother's idea of 
 a moral death, is the idea of such a condition as that ia which the moral faool- 
 
FORSOUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 181 
 
 ties are lifeless; but I do not know of any such a general condition in the human 
 race. Some will say I suppose, as others have done, that moral death is the soul 
 im a state of death, soul-death, therefore; yet I do not perceive the force, though 
 I do the fallacy of the term. ■> t .5 
 
 But does the quotation in question teach, in any sense, a moral death? 
 Hear it again : 
 
 ^•o A^S^^l ?,°u *' ^¥^- ^°^ *'^® ^°"'^ '^ coming, in the whiok att who are in, THEIR 
 •WKAV^S shall hear his voice, and shaU come forth; they that have done good unto the resur- 
 ■redvm of hfe; and they that have done evil, unto the reamrection of drnnnaiion." 
 
 I would like the dividing line drawn just here by my brother; I would like 
 to have it drawn very closely; I would like it to be a very nice and clear line, 
 running between these two resurrections, characterizing and classifying those 
 who receive a resurrection unto life from this moral death, and those who, though 
 they receive a resurrection, receive it unto moral damnatwn, who are resurrected 
 unto moral death. If it be a moral resurrection ; I declare, brother, I would like 
 to have this explained and cleared up in your next speech. Perhaps when I 
 (hear the explanation by my brother I will understand it myself. 
 
 The brother tells us that I speak about this earth being the place where 
 man shall dwell; but says he does not think he will wish to stay here always. 
 My brother and I differ in this. This is the very place where 1 would like to 
 live. I want no other spot in the universe. I will be satisfied here. The Scrip- 
 tures tell us that the Lord hath created the earth for the children of men, and 
 I am satisfied with what God has done for me. If the children of men would 
 only be good and upright, and do their duty one to the other, this little earth 
 would soon be a very paradise, as at the beginning. I would not want a better 
 Leaven, if every creature on this earth was good. When the curse pronounced 
 Hpon it in consequence of sin and transgression shall be" taken oflF; when the 
 laws of Gk)d shall be honored here, and his Son and his people reign upon it, as 
 we read they will do, in the word of God, when the glorious change to be 
 wrought upon it by the power of God shall have taken place, I want to be here. 
 I have no idea of, and no wish to go far away "beyond the bounds of time and 
 epace" for my home, — that is too far away, too long a journey for me, it would 
 take too long a time to reach there. There are stars which have been faintly 
 discovered far within the bounds of space, yet so far within the "milky way," 
 that it takes more than ten thousand years for light to reach us from them, and 
 if I traveled as fast as light does, I should then be more than ten thousand 
 jears on my journey home. Too long a journey, brother, to undertake in going 
 home. No; God has made the earth for me, and I am satisfied with what my 
 Father has done. ' 
 
 The brother tells me that he expects me to prove my proposition, "raised to 
 immortality." I must remind him once more, that I have not yet made such a 
 proposition. Kespeoting the righteous being raised to immortality, I believe 
 that for them there will be such a life; but I have not yet made my argument 
 in relation to it; nor am I under any necessity to do so. I have grown into the 
 habit of reseirve by following Elder Shinn. It is a good idea, sometimes and 
 •often, to remind the brother of the subject of debate, which is "the literal resur- 
 irection of the body." 
 
 He tells you that I do not believe in a day for the resurrection. Well, well ; 
 l>nt I do. He is wrong again. I believe that there is a "day appointed, in the 
 which God will judge the world." My view of this term day, is like that I ex- 
 ]pre8sed of eternity, exactly. The term is a period of time, as here used; not a 
 ^period of twenty-four hours; it is like the days of creation. I do not believe 
 4hat Gxid created this earth in six times twenty-four hours of our time. These 
 
132 FORSOUTT AND SHINIPS i)lSCUSSIO!N: 
 
 days, to me, represent ages, periods of thne. God's judgment day is. also like? 
 his gospel' day; it is a period of time. The gospel period is metaphorically 
 called a" day; the judgment'period is called a' <14^, but I do not understand it,to 
 be merely twenty-four hours. How long, it will last God has not. told us. I 
 dare not venture a' guess upoti it.. The Eld^r tells you that I discard my author 
 Josephus on this point. I do not believe I discard him. Josephus d'oe^s no^^ 
 confine it to ahy thing like a period of twenty-four hdiirs. He simply leaves t)ie 
 question open, by using the broad general term^ "day aforetime determined," "a 
 future judgment." We think in the same broad, general terms, there will be a. 
 "day of judgment." 
 
 On consciousness beyond death, I really ought not allow myself to be led. 
 But that there is a conscious existence of the spirit after death, we fully believe, 
 as well as the eviaence brought forward from God's word in support of it. 2; 
 Corinthians 4 : 16; 2 Corinthians 5 : 1-3, and Hebrews 11th chapter, where the; 
 visible and invisible powers are spoken of. 
 
 Elder Forscutt closed at the call of "Time." 
 
 Elder Shinn's reply to Elder ForScutt's third argument is as follows : 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Qetitlemen: 
 
 I am glad to have accomplished thus much in a right direction so far in^ 
 this discussion. My brother refers you to Luke 20. I understand him clearly 
 to have admitted, this morning, of a conscious state of existence for spirits be- 
 yond this life. Having admitted that fact in his last speech, you will therefore ; 
 remember, that we are agreed in regard to the fact that there is a conscious state ; 
 of existence for spirits, hum^n spirits after death. That is all I wish to say up- 
 on that subject just now. I have no further reference to make t^Luke 20 now. 
 I will wait for the brother to call that up, which he has promised us to do in < 
 good time. : . 
 
 I call your attention at once to Job 19. The brother is determined to hold '•■ 
 me to King Jatnes' translation. He even wants to go so far as to bring all thp- 
 italics, when he knows as well as I do, that in many instances they have no - 
 place there. But if he is determined to have the King James' translation, 
 italics and all, we still have the argument. For the marginal reading of this ■ 
 translation makes quite a difference in the sense, "Though after my skin worms • 
 destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." liTow look at the margin, , 
 my brother, and you will see it makes quite a difference in the sense, "Though . 
 this body be destroyed, yet out of my flesh shall I see God." There is King • 
 James' translation, marginal notes, italics and all. Though his body be de- , 
 stroyed, yet out of the body he should see God. He might just as well have 
 left out the italacs in the first place. It is against him, 1 do not care which 
 way he takes it. You remember I called your . attention to the fact here, that . 
 Job did see God in his flesh, "I have heard of Thee with, the hearing of , the , 
 ear; but now mine eye seeth Tliee." This is Job's own language addressed, .to 
 God. If Job , has not told us a straight story I am not responsible for it. He 
 goes back to the thirty-eighth chapter, and talks about God speaking to Job out - 
 of the whirlwind, "Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind." We do 
 not know, but what he might have spoken to him again. Turn to., the, end 
 of the book, the last chapter, and there we find Job declares, "I have heardi 
 of Thee by the hearing of the ear; but now mine eye seefh Thee." Square audi 
 clean as can be. You see this removes the necessity of Job's literal body b,eing 
 raised up in a future world, in order that he may see God. The brother tells - 
 about the use of the iron pen; about cutting holes in the rocks and pouring : 
 
FORSCUTT.AND, SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 133. 
 
 lead into them. I wonder if Job had reference to the i-esurrection of the literal 
 "body, when tating' about that. liTo, Sir. Job was ascribing his punishments to 
 the Lord. His enemies did not believe in the existence of a true God, and Job 
 is tr^in^ to enforce the argument in favor of his existence, and that he render- 
 •etli j'ud^ent. Let us gol)ack and see how he commences his nineteenth chap- 
 ter. We will commence with the 13th, verse, "He hath put my brethren far 
 from tiae, an'd mine acquaintances are verily estranged from me." Job's wife 
 -died not believing. God rendereth judgment. Job thoiight that he did. 17?'. 
 "My breath is strange to my wife." 19. "All my inward friends abhorred me, 
 and they whom I loved are turned against me." Let the brother blame me for 
 it. Job was suffering under some disease from the crown of the head to the soles 
 of his feet. Now we know what he had been talking about, that there was 
 power with the God of heaven. "0 that my words were now written ! that 
 "they were printed in a book ! that they were graven with an iron pen and lead 
 in the rock A)rever !" ' What did he wish preserved ? Namely, the .grand truth 
 that God renderetlh judgment. ■ "For I know that jpy Redeemer liveth," I 
 would like to read this as I understand it, if my brother will not be put ^side, 
 "And he shall stand at the latter upon the eartb : .and after my skin destroy this, 
 yet in my flesh shall I see God." Then Job testifies over here, "I have, heard 
 of Thee by the hearing of the ear ; but now mine eye seeth Thee." How plain 
 aild clear it is then, "Whom I shall see for myself, -and mine eyes shall behold 
 and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." I presume this is 
 all that is necessary; hpwever, I will put in the close of the chapter, "But ye 
 rshottld say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in 
 me? Be ye afraid of tbe sword; for wrath bringeth the punishments of the 
 jsword, that ye may know there is a judgment," or a retribution. 
 
 Isaiah 26 ; he refers to 25 : 6-8, "Arid in this mountain will the Lord of hosts 
 'make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things 
 ■full of marrow, of wiiies on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in. this 
 mountain the face of the covering," under the reign of the Messiah, under the 
 ■gospel reign, "cast over all people, and the vail that is oast," th^t iS spread "over 
 all nations." , Paul describes this vail to be a vail of unbelief "He will swal- 
 low dea& in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; 
 ■and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth; for the 
 Lord hath spoken it." This has reference to the grand and glorious consumma- 
 ■tion of the gospel reign ; wben Jesus shall have accomplished the object of his 
 mission, to Seek and to save thjit which was lost, and save it forever: ■■ This points 
 'to the grand consummation, my brother. ''And it shall be said in that day," 
 in the day of the gospel reign ; in the day of the Messiah's reign, "Lo, this is 
 our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we 
 have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation," under the 
 great Messiah's reign. There were to.be judgments. ppon the Jews, in fact up- 
 on all mankind; but these were to be before this gmnd prophecy from the sixth 
 to the ninth was to have its fulfillment, or be realized. "In that day," the day 
 of the Messiah's' reign, the' day that„jpsus was to judge mankind by his king- 
 dom, by iis tru'tli', mart it, that is tbe day spoken of, "In that day shall this 
 «ong be sung ip the land of Judah:, we have a strong city; salvation will God 
 appoint for walis and bulwarks! !Qpen ye the gates, that the righteous nation 
 ■which kee^ieth the truth may ente)^ in." So we might read on, until we come 
 •to the ^a^Sage the brother refers to, '.!Thy dead men shall live," etc- Let us go 
 back to%e twelfth verse, ''Lord.. tboi; wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also 
 iiast wrought all oiir works in us., OLord, our God, other lords besides Thee 
 ^ave had dominion over usj^bu^, by.j^ee, only will we .make mention of Thy 
 
184 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 name. They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, and they shall 
 not rise/' These lords that have had dominipn over them, they shall not rise,, 
 as the brother says, therefore he has taken the position that all mankind wil 
 not be raised from the dead, "Therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, 
 and made all their memory to perish. Thou hast increased the nation." Now 
 you see he speaks of the nation, "Q Lord, thou hast increased the nation ; tho» 
 art glorified; thou hast removed it far unto all the ends of the earth;" that is,, 
 the nation. "Lord, in trouble have they visited thee; they poured out a prayer 
 when thy chastening was upon them." Now we read the verse the brother 
 speaks of, "Thy dead men shall live;" the nation that the old prophet speaks of 
 here shall live, "Together with my dead body shall they arise." If we take the' 
 literal sense, that the nation is to arise, the dead body of Isaiah will never do s* 
 anywhere. The nation was to do this, "Awake and sing ye that dwell in dust; 
 for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, 
 my people ;" my people here, is used in a national point of view, so it is still a 
 national affair, "Enter -thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee y 
 hide thyself as it were for a little moment until the indignation be overpast. 
 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the 
 earth for their iniquity; the earth shall also disclose her blood, and shall n» 
 more cover her slain." The same subject is continued, in the next chapter, "la 
 that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword," etc. 
 
 In the twelfth verse of the next chapter we read, "And it shall come t» 
 pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river intc^ 
 the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, ye children." 
 
 Thus we might read sketches from different chapters, referring to the 
 gathering of the Jews under Messiah's reign, and what I conceive to be a moral 
 resurrection of them under Messiah's reign. It has nothing to do with the 
 resurrection of this old body. That has nothing to do with the resurrection of 
 mankind from the state of the dead, according to the teachings of the holy 
 Scriptures. But let us see. I hold here in my hand a work by a very eminent 
 and scholarly man. Brother Goodwin, a presiding Elder of the Methodist de- 
 nomination. You see my views are sustained by good authority. I have noted! 
 scholarly men on my side. In support of the view I have given you, I will read 
 you his view : 
 
 "We have yet to lind a commentator of respectability, who assumes that the doctrine aS 
 a future resurrection can be proven by this passage. They uniformily apply it to some de- 
 liverance of the children of Israel, but generally follow Bishop Lowth in saying, "The deliver- 
 ance of the people of God from the lowest depression is explained by images plainly taken, 
 from the resurrection of the dead." Indeed ! But that is assuming the very thing whiok 
 needs proof. The Bible nowhere teaches such a resurrection; why should prophetsrepresent 
 temporal deliverances by the creatures of uninspired imagination? Identical in import is the 
 prophecy of Hosea, written a few years after the prophecy of Isaiah. Hosea 13 : 12-16." — 
 Uode of Man's Immortality, page 65. T. A. Groodwin. 
 
 Then he understands these passages of Scripture as I understand them. 
 
 The brother speaks about the earth as a future heaven; and he seems glad,, 
 and becomes quite eloquent at the thought of its becoming renewed and purified, 
 and made a fit dwelling for the redeemed human spirits. Well, brother, I hop^ 
 to be with you in that heaven, or another like it, here upon this earth so far as 
 that is concerned. But I do not suppose I shall be confined herk if it should 
 take a thousand or ten thousand years, with the speed of light to i^each some 
 other planet. I might stop at a nearer place, and learn of the |bekuties and 
 glories of it first. I might take the solar system to begin with, as far as that is 
 concerned, and drink in of its beauties and glories as they were unfolded to me 
 from one stage of progression to another, drawing nearer and still nearer to God 
 
FORSUUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 135. 
 
 Aronghout the endless oyoles of eternity: This looks like a heaven to me. 
 Drinking in new beauties, and viewing the grandeur of God, manifested in his 
 goodness and excellent works. I agree with you, brother. All the heaven we 
 can ha,ve upon this earth, we must make. Then let us try to make, help to 
 make it as much like heaven as we can. Let us work on, hoping for better 
 things. '^ 
 
 Day of judgment. He explains it to be an age or a period. We are 
 agreed. That is my first view and my last view, all the time. The word day, 
 the day of judgment, is an age or a period. It does not fix a day to judge the 
 world by Jesus Christ, a day of twenty-four hours. Whoever advocates such a 
 view as this, I must forever differ with. 
 
 My brother speaks of his quotation from Josephus. I will simply remark, 
 my brother, that your quotation you have referred to in your last speech, is a 
 spurious quotation. 
 
 Once more I want to make a correction, my friendly hearers. Because I 
 do not believe the same old body will be re-animated, after being scattered to 
 the four winds of heaven, will bo brought up again in the future and made the 
 home for the spirit to dwell in again, some have the impression that I do not be- 
 lieve in a resurrection. All the resurrection that I suppose is taught in the 
 Bible I do believe in. I believe that the spirit man is the true man. That 
 when death comes, this spirit man is clothed upon with "the house which is 
 from heaven," that the apostle Paul speaks of; a grand, glorious, spiritual body. 
 
 This is the word you know we have some difficulty with; had some little 
 contradiction in our views, a question at any rate, about the meaning of the 
 word translated resurrection. Anastam, my brother would define as a reanima- 
 tion of the dead body. I claim that to this word no such meaning as being 
 brought to life belongs. It means rising; that is what it means. How beauti- 
 ful the word when we understand it. When delivered from the mortal body, 
 the spirit will rise, and will be clothed upon with a spiritual body, a house that 
 is from heaven. We simply move out of this old body, and move into that 
 spiritual body, that house which is from heaven, which is not made with hands, 
 eternal in the heavens. This is my view of the matter. There is no sleep of 
 the spirit. The spirit man , lives right on. I will show you by and by, that 
 there is no such thing as death, when we reach it. I should have attended to 
 this before I commenced reviewing my brother's speech. I left off speaking on 
 the subject of the inner man being clothed upon by the house from heaven. 
 You remember I had just quoted Hebrews 11:3. I had only just time to make 
 a remark or two about it. I want to read it again, to refresh your minds, 
 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, 
 so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." I 
 took the position hera, ttat that which is seen is temporal; but that which is 
 not seen is eternal. I want to conclude my argument. Attraction and repul- 
 sion are mighty forces in the universe. They are invisible, but real. Electric- 
 ity is a mighty force in the universe. It is material, something, though invisible. 
 It is real, and I believe it is eternal, as well as all the other forces in this earth. 
 Man, I believe, represents in himself all these forces and elements. I believe 
 electricity, that invisible power, that agent of God, is spirit, because it is invis- 
 ible. And now my argument is, that that which is invisible, is alone eternal. 
 The invisible man, the invisible spirit man, the inner man, the true man, must 
 be the eternal man. All of man is in that germ folded up there, and though 
 separated from the body it lives on, it is himself. All of man is in that spirit- 
 ual germ; it is the power, it is the principle, this image that corresponds with 
 the inner man, the spiritual entity that the apostle speaks of in the fifteenth 
 
136 FORSCUTT AND SHIiVN' S 01)^0113810^. 
 
 chapter of first Corinthians. This old body will die, and return to its primitire 
 elements, dust; biit the inner man, t^le germ, the soul, we read of, the invisible 
 man will live on. Here is the clothing. Here, is the body from heaven, the 
 spiritual bo,dy- Our Lord Jesus Christ brought arguments from the Old Testa- 
 ment in support, of this view, "Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed 
 at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the G-od of Abraham, and the God of 
 Isaac, and the God of Jacob." What does he mean here if it is not'true that 
 Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were then living, "I am the G-od of Abraham, 
 and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;" "God is not a God of the dead, 
 bu,t of the living. This proves that the resurrection is progriessive. That when 
 !this body is laid off, we are clothed upon with that spiritual body,- that house 
 which is from heaven, as I showed you before. It was true then away back 
 there, that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, although they have been dead for 
 centuries, lived unto God, "God is not a God of the dead, but of the living; for 
 all live unto him." This was truth, glorious truth understood by Moses. 
 Again ; I call your attention to Genesis 37 : 31-35 : 
 
 "And they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the 
 blood; and they sent the coat of many colors, and they brought it to their father; and said, 
 This have we found ; know now whether it be thy son's coat or no. And he knew it, and 
 said, It is my son's coat; an evil beast hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in 
 pieces. And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his 
 son many days, And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him ; but he refused 
 to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unio my son mourniog.!' 
 
 Now he knew that his son had been sacrificed, had gone'to the state of the 
 dead, but he was going to him He knew his son was there. Mark you, his 
 son. Not his literal body, for his literal body did not go there, but the spirit 
 man, the true man was there. And here we have the old Patriarch Jacob, go- 
 ing to his son, whom he thought to be in the state of the dead,' I understand to 
 be in the spirit life or world; in that eternal real world. "For the things which 
 are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." 
 
 Again; 2 Samuel 12 : 23. David says here, "But now he is dead, where- 
 fore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he 
 shall not return to me." Another example, as I understand it, of the conscious- 
 ness of the spirit in the spirit land. Whether these have any bodies or not we 
 shall see by and by. 
 
 The Moderator's voice calling "Time" closed the reply. 
 
 Elder Forscutt's fourth argument : 
 Messrs. Moderators. Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 At the close oi my last speech, I was about to review some of the brother's 
 thoughts on conscious existence; but while I have listened to his criticisms upon 
 my last speech, and the new evidences our brother has presented to us, in sup- 
 port of his theory of a conscious state of existence beyond the grave; I have . 
 concluded that to nearly all that he has said this time- I can say "Amen." I 
 presume nearly all the Latter Day Saints can; for we have all the same gfelieral 
 views. 
 
 I gave him credit day before yesterday in this way, and he did not like .my 
 criticising him afterwards; and he has said so much in this speech that pleased 
 me, that I will have to be careful this time; but yet there are some things that 
 he presented to us in this last speech, that I must criticise just'a little. I will 
 be as tender as I can. I am naturally sympathetic, I am told. 
 
 We learn from what the gentleman has said, that he still decides as bfefore 
 in respect to the testimony of God to Job. We will only answer one poitit in 
 
FORSOUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 137 
 
 this reference, namely, that Job, saw the Lord at the time he spake to him out 
 of the whirlwind. He says we do not know but what he might have spoken to 
 him again., In the thirty-eighth chapter we first read that God Bpake to 
 him, oift,qf the whirlwind, and then follows the reply of God: In the fortieth 
 chajpter we thus read of Job's answering the Lord, after the Lord had spoken, 
 *^Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, turice; but I will proceed no 
 further." , Tl^en we read the answer of the JLord as before, "Then answered the 
 Lord unto Job out of ^e whirlwind, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man." 
 That speech continues right .along down to the end of the forty-first Chapter. 
 In the begiiinipg of the forty-second chapter. Job commences his answer to the 
 Lord ; and in that answer occurs the words you have quoted. We will dispense 
 with that argument now, and let it pass as sufficiently answered. 
 
 The brother quoted the testimony of saiah; and says that it points to the 
 general consumma,tion, when all shall have been brought unto a state of salva- 
 tion, I give his idea, not his words. This is in relation to thetwenty-fi^h of 
 Isaiah; I have the same underatan^bg of it; and on the twenty-sixth chapter 
 of Isaiah, I agree with him partly too. I do not know whether I would say 
 that they would all b» raised then, or not. Except they change, they will not 
 then all be raised. I have already said, that there are times, set times, for the 
 resurrection. And at this time, when Israel will be restored to his land, the 
 wicked will not be raised. 
 
 Illustratively, we find, right here in the next chapter, a distinction marked 
 ■out plainly between the righteous and the wicked; Israel is to "blossom and bud, 
 and fill the face of the world with fruit;" (27 : 6), "Yet the defenced city shall 
 be desolate, and the habitation forsaken and left like a wilderness;" (lOv), "for 
 it is [occupied] by a people of no understanding; therefore he that made them 
 will not have mercy on them, and he that found them will shew them no favor." 
 — 11«. There is then to be destruction to the foes of Israel; there is then to 
 be pain to the enemies of Judah; but in the land of Judah shall the new song 
 be sung; for God shall have planted on the mountains of Israel his people, in 
 fulfillment of the promises to the fathers. These enemies will not then .arise. 
 The time for their resurrection will norhave come. It will not take place for a 
 thousand years at least after that, as we shall bring evidence of in the course of 
 the debate, if time permit. 
 
 The brother tells us at the close of his argument, that the old body drops 
 ofi', and we have no more use for it. I wonder whether it, ever "dropped" on. 
 I can not understand the phildsophy of the thought, that God should give to us 
 a being in this state, in order that we might enter into the conditions of our 
 earth-life, pass through them in such varied forms, in such unequal stages, and 
 in such unequal circumstances, with such unequal capabilities for good or evil, 
 and all just for the sake of being burdened and grieved for a few days or years 
 here; which is the case if the body serves no other purpose. Truly, Sir, if the 
 body be only for this life, then can we not ascribe to God, its author, wisdom, as 
 we have been accustomed to ascribe to him wisdom. Here is a child that is 
 born and lives but a moment. Where is the wisdom in the creation of that 
 child, if there be no resurrection of the body? Of what use is earth-life to that 
 child, or to its suffering mother, if there is to be no resurrection of the, body? 
 If the conditions designed for this life are not to be repeated by an existence in 
 the body in a sublimated form, the body is a worse than a useless creation. It 
 eeems to me that the work of a careful man would excel this work of creation, if 
 there is to be no resurrection. Yet, in fact, if there is to be no resurrection, it 
 matters but little whether we are born at all, or how long a time or how short a 
 time we stay here, — th^t is, according to Scripture, or what he may call "Mor- 
 
138 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 mon philosophy;*' for as that teaches a pre-existence of spirit, there is no nece». 
 sity for birth here at all, in order to existence of the spirit. With the philoso- 
 phy of our friend, that this condition in the body i§ the only one we shall ever 
 have in the body, and that we are going to leave the body to perish or decay m 
 the grave through eternity, and we exist only as spirits in a spirit condition for- 
 evermore, it is another question. We believe that God does nothing in vain, 
 and that as the body is essential to ultimate happiness in a perfect state, so it 
 was created for union with the spirit to form the perfect soul-man. Given, the 
 claim that the body is not essential, and its creation is a work of folly, and a 
 cause of pain and grief. When we consider the two propositions, we are satis- 
 fied with our position that the body will be restored. 
 
 As touching the question of the restoration of the body, |the brother telb 
 us, that these bodies drop off, and are done with; that they shall not be raised 
 again. Let us see. We have just heard from Br. Shinn, and will now hear 
 from Br. Paul, from Jesus, from Br. James, and from a few others of the an- 
 eient brethren. There is certainly a very serious disagreement between them 
 and him somewhere. 
 
 The apostle Paul says, "If we have been planted together in the likeness of 
 his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." He is referring 
 here to Jesus Christ. What was the resurrection of Jesus, — a spiritual or moral 
 one? No, Sir. A literal one. Yes, Sir; a literal one; for after he had been 
 raised from the dead, the disciples thought that it was a spirit that had appeared 
 unto them, but Jesus made this demand of them, "Handle me and see;" and 
 afterward explained to them, "A spirit hath -not flesh and bones as ye see me 
 have." Now, Sir, in this resurrection, Jesus had his flesh and his bones with 
 him, and these are certainly a part of the body. There was a little difference in 
 the body of Jesus, I grant you. One of the elements in the body when Jesus 
 was a mortal being, was not in the body in a resurrected state. This that was 
 in the natural condition of Jesus, as a mortal, was not in the condition of Jesus 
 as a resurrected being. In the mortal state he had flesh and bones, and blood 
 circulate,d through his veins; but we do not read of his saying or intimating 
 that a resurrected being had blood, when discriminating between himself and a 
 spirit, in the phrase, "a spirit hath not flesh and bones," no blood named, but "a 
 spirit hath not^s7i and bones as YE SEE ME HAVE." There is a distinc- 
 tion between the mortal or natural body, and the spiritual or resurrected body. 
 
 Now, Sir, was this body the same that Jesus had before on earth? Let us 
 go for evidence to the words of Jesus to one of the disciples, who could not be- 
 lieve that Jesus could have a literally resurrected body. Like my brother, he 
 thought that the body was "done with" after this life had been spent in it. He 
 did not believe that the body of Jesus would be raised again ; perhaps not that 
 the body of any one else would be; and unless he saw the prints of the nails in 
 the hands and in the feet of Jesus, and saw where the spear had pierced his 
 side, he would not believe that the body of Jesus had been raised from the 
 dead. Jesus appeared, however, and showed him. He saw the prints of the 
 nails; he saw the spot where the spear entered. He saw the marks in his feet 
 and hands, and exclaimed," "My Lord, and my God." Jesus said, "Thomas, be- 
 cause thou hast seen me, thou hast believed ; blessed are they that have noi 
 seen, and yet have believed." 
 
 I believe with all my heart in the literal resurrection of Jesus. I dare to 
 believe the, word through Jesus, and the word of the Holy Ghost through Paul, 
 "If we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, welshall be also 
 in the likeness of his resurrection." 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 139 
 
 , iJ°^V*''^°^''e °^^ *^*' "^^e thought, this apostle says in the forty-ninth 
 and fittieth verses of the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians : 
 
 "Aa we have borne the image of the earthly, we slioM also bear the image of the heavenly. 
 Now thw I say, brethren, that flesh and blood, [Jlesh and BLOOD], can not inherit the king- 
 dom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." 
 
 What is corruptible in man's nature? What is the corruptible that can 
 not inherit the kingdom? Flesh and bones can; for Jesus had them. What is 
 thehfeofthemortalflesh, the natural man? Is it not blood ? Blood is the 
 element of natural life within the body. Take a person and deprive his body of 
 blood, and supply the more than electric force of spirit, and every purpose of 
 life could be served. Take this body, and fill it with that spiritual electricity 
 which flows from the Spirit of God, and we have, instead of a corruptible body, 
 one like unto the glorious body of Jesus in his resurrected state. The blood 
 was not there. Flesh and blood were not there, but flesh and hones were; the 
 veins were filled with, and the body animated with spirit; just such waa the 
 body of the Lord Jesus Christ; just such are we to be. Our mortal bodies 
 while animaJized by blood, can not inherit the kingdom of God; but they are to 
 be changed, to be made immortal, and yet they will be in fact the same bodies ; 
 but animated by another element. 
 
 The apostle says on this subject, commencing at the forty-second verse of 
 the fifteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. 
 It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption." What is it that is sown 
 in corruption? Is it the spirit? Is that sown in corruption? There is no 
 reference here to the spirit. You, Sir, have told us that the spirit lives on; and 
 I believe it. The spirit then is not sown in corruption; but the body is. That 
 is "sown in corruption, and raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor." 
 Surely, Sir, it is no dishonor that the spirit is sown in, if your theory be true. 
 You tell us that from this state the spirit rises to a more exalted one, and cer- 
 tainly there is no dishonor attaching to that. The body alone is sown in dis- 
 honor, because its death, or sowing, is a sin-penalty for the works of the flesh in 
 this earth; because man has corrupted himself through sin. "It is sown in dis- 
 honor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness," yes, in weakness, because 
 subjected ; but "it is raised in power,"— in triumph. It is sown a natural body, 
 a lodi/ of nature, a body afflicted with the sins of our earth-life; — "It is sown a 
 natural body," a body of the life of the natural flesh ; but "it is raised a spiritual 
 body," a body filled with spiritual life, renewed flesh and bones, but filled with 
 the element oi spirit, and for that reason "it\s raised a spiritual body. And so 
 it is written, The first man Adam was made a living sovl; the last Adam was 
 made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual; but 
 that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." The natural con- 
 dition of the thing sown, the body, comes first. It came first to our Lord; it 
 comes first to all; and after the natural conditions have been passed through, the- 
 spiritual condition follows. If we are sown in dishonor, sown in weakness, we 
 only in so far as our bodies are concerned, we shall be raised in glory, raised in 
 incorruption to endless life, with spiritual bodies, if we be worthy. 
 '1 The brother tells us something about a spiritual body; about that which is< 
 not seen being eternal. • The body, the idea is, is seen ; so that it is a material 
 substance. Yes, it is a material substance, and there is' no such a thing as an 
 "immaterial substance." I know a great many talk about an immaterial sub- 
 stance. I think my brother, however, has too much good sense for that. I dO' 
 not think he will take this position; but if he does I will "go for him." 
 We discover from the reading of the words of Paul, that not only did his hope- 
 centre in the resurrection, not only did his highest and best aspirations point in 
 
140 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 "that direction; but lie seemed to realize that all the sons of Grod waited for it. 
 I -vsjill give you his words, Komans 8 ; 19 : : . . i ... •' 
 
 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the ilnanifeStatiori of the sons of 
 <xod. 20. For the creature was ma^esutgect, to vanity, [my brother perhaps will try to 
 turn this aside by sayiflg that he may have travailed in^ sin], was made subjept to vanity, not 
 willin^y, but by reason of hini 'who hath subjected the' same in hope; because the ereature 
 itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruptipn into the glorious hberty of the 
 •childreti of God." ' ' 
 
 ' ' What is the creature? The spirit? No. The body? Yes. The crea- 
 ture, the body was made svtbjegt to vanity; ndt the Spirit. "The spirit is wil- 
 ling," one has said, "but the flesh is weak." I do hot know but I believe that 
 Jepus made that remark : I am not positive. It is true, whoever made it. We 
 may be willing in spirit to do good; to become more like Christ; but the flesh, 
 hinders. It is the flesh that is weak; it is the flesh that deprives the spirit 
 within of the native dignity which it had when it came from its God. Through 
 our parentage, through the associations of life we have here in the body,- in the 
 flesh, the body, ie "made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him 
 who hath subjected the same in hope." What kind of hope? . The hope that 
 though now it be made a subject of vanity and weakness, it shall be raised in 
 glory and power. All these idiosyncrasies, all these pre-natal, natal, and associ- 
 ated inharmonies now attaching to it through weakness, through the lack of 
 knowledge, through the poor selection of each qther for companions, through 
 I the conditions of the past and present, through the circumstances attending our 
 birth, through and in a thousand causes serving to make us what we are; in 
 which, did we but give them a proper consideration, we would discover the 
 source of our present subjection; but it is a gubjectioii in hope that in the 
 hereafter we shall, if worthy, be raised ; freed from all these conditions. Hence, 
 though made subject to vanity, the body has been so made in hope of the resur- 
 rection of that body, the deliverance of the body ; as Paul testifies in Romans 
 :8:22, 23: 
 
 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth iu'pain together until now. 
 -And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first. fruits of the spirit." , 
 
 What spirit? Evidently, the spirit by which our bodies are to be raised; 
 the spirit by which they are to be governed; with which they are to be sur- 
 charged and renewed; — having now the first fruits of that spirit, "Even we 
 ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption 
 •of our hody. 
 
 Brother, I would like to have Brother Paul here just five minutes to talk 
 with you upon this subject. The brother says this old body drops off, and then 
 Tve are done with it,, we have no more use fpr it, !'let it go." Good Brother 
 Paul thought differently. He was groaxdng for the acfopitbn. of the body. ' He 
 was «7ai<OTgr in this condition of mort3.1ity for the adoption of the body. ' He 
 was tjue to the work given him jyjiile waiting, that he might attain to that re- 
 demption. He had hope that his body should be changed, and be;faBhioned in 
 the likeness of the body of Jesug, and that he should be permitted to live with 
 nJesus and reign with him when he comes, r,., , 
 
 Now. still further, proceeding with this subject, I will call the attention of 
 my brother to the statement made concerning Jesus- in Golossians 1 :18. The 
 apostle here tells us that Christ was "The first horn\irom the dead." '; The 
 brother has told us that he belieyes in. a "progressive resurrection." He has 
 not defined just what he means by a progressive resurrection; but in hisittfgu- 
 ment he has intimatpd that it is a successive resurreetion. In his last speech he 
 i^struoted us that when death came the spirit took its flight to a place prepared 
 
FORSG^UTT AND S^II^JfS DISCUSSION. 141 
 
 for it, and was clothed upon with a'spiritlial body, and that this is the resurrec- 
 tton. I do not pretend to giy« his words, but his idea. I think this was the 
 thought expressed. If this be true, then I *buld like t^is idea of the resurrec- 
 tion being "progressive," and the statement that Jesus was the "first born from 
 the dead," j-eeonoiled. For, Sir, Jesus was not raised from the dead, until the 
 world was over four thousand years old. If Jesus was not raised fronl the 
 dead, until the world was more than four thousand yearfe old, and the resurrec- 
 tion had been fgoing on from the time of Adam down to his time, I would like 
 you to instruct us how he could be the '■yirst bom from the dead." If that be 
 true, there were thousands who had been raised before him. How, Sir, and in 
 what sense was Christ "the first fruitg" the "first bom froih the dead? 
 ' Again ; in Acts 26 : 22, 23, the apostle tells us that the prophets had bqrne 
 witness that Jesus "shmdd he THE FIRST tJiat shovM rise from the dead."' 
 Were the prophets wrong? Would it not be a very damaging discovery to- 
 make that he who "should be the first that should rise from the dead," had been 
 preceded by millions in a progressive resurrection, a resurrection that com- 
 menced four thousand years before his birth ? Thejgentleman told me yesterday 
 that he was going to hold me to this thing, and to that thing, and that if 1 did 
 not make this and that clear, I had lost the whole argmeht; I now want him to 
 tell me how that "progressive resurrection" had been going on for four thousand 
 years, and yet the scriptures be true that Jesus was "the first born from the 
 dead," "the first that should rise from the dead." 
 
 John 6 : 39-45.i— "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he- 
 hath given mo, I should lose nothing, but should rais^it up again at the last day. And this 
 ia the will of him that sent me, that' every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, 
 may have everlastipg life : and I wiUraise'him up at the last day." 
 
 I wish to, ask the question here of the gentleman, if this is a promise, this 
 statement made by Jesus Christ, how could Jesus make such a promise, such a 
 statement, provided the resurrection of all men took place in "the last times" that 
 the brother has been telling us about. I would like him to inform us how this 
 testimony could be of any value to the believer; if aU men men are raised in, 
 the resurrection as soon as they die, of what benefit is a promise that tJiey thxt 
 believe on CAmi, should be raiped. Where are all the wicked who die ? They 
 are raised, I suppose, aocording to Elder Shinn, as soon as they die; their resur- 
 rection to glory is going on "progressively." If then the righteous have to wait 
 until "the last day," I do not know but the wicked will have the finally better 
 chance; decidedly the better now, for they do not have to wait any such a 
 length of time as the righteous do. I can not arrive at such conclusions by the 
 word of God, but by the arguments of my brother. 
 
 . Again, as regards this progressive resurrection idea. I remember reading 
 M a circumstance that occurred during the lifetime of Jesus. A certain man 
 whom he loved^died, and Jesus, having before learned of his sickness, was made 
 'aware of his death by inspiration. He then went over into Bethany^ that he 
 might raise .him from the^dead ^ and thus show forth his power over death. Ar- 
 riving at Bethany, he learned that this man had lain in the grave four days al- 
 jready. This man had two sisters who loved him. These sisters wept over him, 
 and one of them came to Jesus, with whom Jesus returUed to, the other, and 
 thence to the grave. Jesus then raifeed their brother from the dead. Now, if 
 Jesus raised the body of this man from the dead, and he had also been raised 
 According to the gentleman's theory four days previously; if, I say, four days ' 
 tefore Jesus raised bim, he had been resurrected in this progresive resurrection 
 which we are told is going on all the time, what was the nature of this double 
 resurrection? If a man is resurrected as soon as he dies, four days before Jesus 
 
142 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'8 DISCUSSION. 
 
 raised Mm, this man had been raised, and had had given unto him the spirituid 
 body our friend talks about, while the natural body was in the grave; then, Sir, 
 at the resurrection of his natural body, this man had two bodies at the same, time, 
 his natural and his spiritual body. But if our friend denies the possession of 
 two bodies to Lazarus, what became of the spiritual body when the spirit came 
 back to take the natural body? When Jesus called the dead body forth, I wish 
 to know what then became of the spiritual body. Two bodies in one, a spiritual 
 body and a natural body, and a spirit within the two; how is this, friend Shinn ? 
 
 In the same chapter quoted from by the brother, verse 44, we read: 
 "No man can come to me except the'Father which hath sent me draw him; and 7iw 
 raise him up ai the last day." 
 
 It is so very strange that Jesus did not give any kind of an idea of the 
 matter, if it was the intention that the dead should be raised as soon as they die. 
 It is very strange that the Great Teacher did not give some clear idea of this 
 matter, and in speaking to them at this time say, "I will raise him up as soon as 
 he dies," instead of saying, "I will raise him up at the last day," is it not? 
 How is it my brother has become so much wiser than Jesus ? How is it that 
 Elder Shinn is able to discriminate so much more closely than Jesus ? 
 
 How is it that he will be able to get along without the body, while he is to 
 be wandering upward or around from world to world, during this ten thousand 
 year's journey, and for ever; while all the brethren of old looked forward to the 
 adoption or redemption of the body, that they might dwell here? It is because, 
 perhaps, he has made up his mind on this question, as did the Sadducees of old, 
 that there is no resurrection of the body, and therefore, adopting the modern 
 spiritualistic view, he discards the Savior's doctrine of the resurrection. It may 
 foe that he has come to that conclusion, and in adopting ■'it, the Bible is laid 
 aside; for it certainly teaches that the bodies of the Saints shall be raised again, 
 as glorified bodies. Jesus too will reign with those who are glorified, for they 
 will be glorified with him, and their bodies be raised in the likeness of his body. 
 His body is the same body he had on earth, there being missing from it only 
 the element of blood. If the Saints have not their bodies, they will not be raised 
 in the likeness of Christ's glorious body, and the promise will fail. There can 
 be no' powers to reign with Christ on earth, without the body in its resurrrected 
 state. They are to be like Jesus. His body was there, when resurrected ; the 
 flesh was there, the bone's were there, the spirit was there, and his body, being 
 filled with and quickened by the Spirit, was a spiritual body; yet it had sub- 
 stance and parts, and all the essentials of a body, when Jesus showed himself to 
 his disciples, and made himself known to them; ours must possess all these ele- 
 ments, or we shall not be like him. 
 
 "Time" was here called. 
 
 Elder Shinn's fourth reply. 
 
 Gentlemen Moderators,, Ladies and ^Gaitlemen: 
 
 I wish to make one more reference to Isaiah 25 : 6-8. My brother certain- 
 ly dops not understand me, or at any rate he does not fairly represent or present 
 my view. I believe that that prophecy of Isaiah, brother, has reference to the 
 reign of the Messiah here, in the earth. What I meant by consummation was 
 the time when he shall have wrought out under that potent power, that great 
 power of love, which shall finally rule all men, the salvation of all souls, and 
 shall have brought all souls to God. I believe the grand consummation spoken 
 of there, is to be wrought out, my brother, before his personal coming, before, 
 he delivers up the kingdom to God the Father. For the time of this gloriora 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 143 
 
 salvation, I would refer you to 1 Corinthians 15 ; to Thessalonians, relative to a 
 personal coming of Jesus, to take place at the end of his reign, when he shall 
 have wrought this salvation for all, and delivered up the kingdom to God the 
 Father. , * 
 
 The brother seems to be impressed with the idea that this literal, animal 
 body will be necessary; especially so far as the future life is concerned. Well, 
 I presume that this view of the matter will do until old Babylon falls, and all 
 such speculation with it; but where is the evidence produced that the Bible 
 teaches a resurrection of the animal body? I can not see, so far as I am con- 
 cerned, that the same body will be necessary there. 
 
 Brother, is the same body necessary here for identity? Do you have the 
 same body to-day, that you had seven years ago? Not one particle do you have 
 to-day, that you had seven years ago, according to scientific reasoning upon this 
 matter, perhaps. I will give that matter due notice, however, before the discus- 
 sion closes. I shall speak of it again. I will state, however, that the character- 
 istics of the body, which we dwell ,in now, are not necessary for our identity, 
 and will not be hereafter,, in the future, spirit world. 
 
 Paul's teaching, "if we have been planted together in the likeness of his 
 death, we shall be also Tn the likenesss of his resurrection." 
 
 I maintain that this is a moral resurrection plainly, in which we are to be 
 raised in the likeness of Jesus. The apostle's view upon it. The apostle Paul's 
 teaching upon the subject of the resurrection, brother, I will introduce in due 
 time in this discussion. We will see fully what they are. He admits, however, 
 that Jesus, in his resurrected body, lacked one of the elements that the animal 
 body has. Well if it lacked one of the elements, it was not the same body, 
 literal body. 
 
 Elder Foescutt. "It does not require all the parts to constitute a body." 
 
 Elder Shinn. I am frank to say, so far as I am concerned, that I believe 
 the literal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. I believe it was necessary 
 it should have been done, to convince mankind at that age of the world, of the 
 truth of a resurrection to immortality. 
 
 First Corinthians, fifteenth chapter, the brother refers us to. I want to 
 notice some of the things he has said. He called especial attention, I notice, to 
 the 49th and 50th verses; also the 42-48th; 49th verse first, "And as we have 
 borne the image of the earthy," the independent spirit man stands out again, 
 "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that 
 flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of Grod." The brother understands 
 the phrase, "kingdom of God," to apply to the future immortal state. "Neither 
 doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold I show you a mystery; we shall 
 not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." I do not wish to read any farther. 
 I believe that is as far as the brother read. Then he called attention again to 
 Corinthians, forty-second verse of the same chapter, "So also is the resurrection 
 of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption." What is 
 sown in corruption, the brother asks, and answers, the body, the literal body, 
 is to be raised in incorruption. I deny its being the literal body that is sown 
 here. The forty-first verse reads : 
 
 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of th» 
 stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the 
 dead." 
 
 That which is denominated dead, is the same that is sown. I believe it is 
 the same. There is not anything in the original answering to the pronoun it, 
 that I am aware of. I believe it would be better to say sown, than "it is sown." 
 But the construction of the sentence requires something right at the beginning, 
 
144 FORSOUTT AND SHIKJSrS DlSOtrSSlON., 
 
 and would it not be right to say, "we are sown," or something answering' to that 
 which is the subject of raised is "sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body." 
 Sown in dishonor, raised in glory; sown in weakness, raised in power." One 
 criticisjtn here, my brother. I want it distinctly understood now, that the sow- 
 ing here is not death.- We are sown now. We are in the natural body', sown a 
 natural body now. It answers to that which is to be raised. Now is the time 
 we are sown; sown a natural body; by and by, we will be raised a spiritual 
 body. We read further, "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?" 
 This is a question in the very same chapter, thirty-fifth verse, "But some man 
 will say. How , are the dead raised up? atid with what body do they come? 
 Thou foolish man." I will read it this way, it sounds better in speaking to an 
 opponent, "That which thou sowest is not quickened except it die." Then thi& 
 body must be dropped off; it must die. Then that which is within, answering 
 to that which is to be raised, this germ that grows, that is to be clothed upon 
 with a spiritual body, "For thou sowest not that body that shall' be." For all 
 the brother thinks it is the same body that shall be. There is the a^bstle Paul's 
 teaching, here is the subject of the resurrection defined at last, and Paul declares 
 positively, "Thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may 
 chance of wheat or some other grain: but God giveth it," answering to that 
 which is within, represented by the germ in the grain, "a body as it hath pleased 
 him, and to every seed his own body." Then he read the fiftieth verse, "Now 
 this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God; 
 neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." How clearly then the same 
 animal body can not inherit the kingdom of God. This body is corruptible ; 
 the heavenly body will be spiritual and incorruptible. 
 
 He says he does not charge me with teaching the idea of an immaterial 
 body, but if I do, then he will go for me. Thinks I have more sense than to 
 teach apy such a body. I am very thankful, brother, I do happen to know better 
 than that. I do not believe in an immaterial body, neither do I believe. Sir, 
 in going, beyond the bounds of time and space. Neither do I believe that the 
 same body we have now will be a material body in the resurrection. I speak of 
 this, so that we may be distinctly understood iii regard to this matter. 
 
 Roman 8 : 19, calls my attention to. I want to notice that closely: 
 
 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of 
 God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not wiffingly, but by reason of him who 
 hath subjected the sanie in hope." , . , ■ ' 
 
 The brother spends considerable time on the word "creature," and claims 
 that it means body. If you will allow me that it means the whole, body bf hu- 
 manity, J will; agree with you. What body is it? I believe it is the whole 
 body of mankind, but not the literal body. "For the earnest expectation of the 
 creature," that which was made subject to vanity, "waiteth for the nianifestation 
 of the sons of God. For the creature was • made subject to vanity," the same 
 creature, which the apostle Paul was commanded to preach the gospel toi Mark 
 you, the same word in the original is found in both these places. What ! to the 
 dead bodies of mankind? The literal bodies? "For the creature was made 
 subject to vanity." These bodies? . "Not willingly, but by reason of him who 
 hath subjected the same in hope." Can the literal body hope? "Because the 
 creature itself also shall be deliverfed from the bondage of corruption into the 
 glorious liberty of the children of God." "For we know that the whole creation 
 groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Had it been here the whole 
 literal body; of mankind I might submit to my brother's criticism! "And not 
 only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the spirit,. even. we 
 ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to-wit, the redemption 
 
FORSGUTT AND SEINN'S DISCUSSION. 145 
 
 of our body." It is the whole body of mankind; all men; mankind is the body. 
 It is "our body," the whole body of mankind. The same body the apostle refers 
 to when he says, "Sown in corriqttipn, raised in incorruption." I did think I 
 would read something from the Biaglott in refereilce to that, but I will not do 
 so. You can see what the Diaglott says yourself, when you refer to it again. 
 
 He referred us to Colossians 1:18. I merely wish to read the passage, 
 that is aU, "Who is the beginning, the first born from the dead; that in all 
 things he might have the pre-eminence." I do not believe that Jesus was the 
 first born from the dead^ in the sense that he was the first who was raised from 
 the dead; but it is by way of pre-eminence. This is the sense I take it. Jesus 
 is the Mediator, the chief one among those that have died. The one having the 
 pre-eminence over all creatures. Not the first ftuits, only in the sense of pre- 
 eminence, that is all. There is not the first reason for believing it in any other 
 sense. Thousands had been raised before him, if your theory be true. If your 
 Book of Mormon does not teach that' all piankind from Adam up to the year 
 before Christ had been resurrected — 
 
 Elder Forscutt interrupting, "Some of them after Christ, not before." 
 
 Elder Shinn resuming. Well, it teaches it before. I have it marked andt 
 paged. It certainly does teach it. Those who live in glass houses ought to be 
 careful how they throw stones, or they will get their windows broken. The 
 brother seems disposed to throw odium Upon me because I am a Universalist. I 
 do not think that is altogether right, my brother. If I was disposed to, I could 
 throw a good deal of odium upon you beftre this congregation. He tries to 
 make it out, that the wicked, according to my theory, are better off than the 
 righteous. You know that I have been teaching that all mankind are strictly 
 rewarded according to their works. The Universalists believe that all mankind 
 are rewarded according to their works. Do not try to misrepresent me any 
 more. 
 
 My friend teaches that the wicked, as well as the righteous, will all be 
 raised. But he says, "If the progressive resurrection be true." The progress- 
 ive resurrection is true. I have shown you some testimony in regard to that, 
 and will show you more in due time. 
 
 Lazarus raised from the dead. The brother supposes he was not raised to 
 a stat« of immortality. Then, certainly, my brother, he must have been raised 
 to a state of mortality. The brother would find a diflaculty in claiming that was 
 a resurrection to immortality. He wants to know of me where his spiritual 
 body was, after having been brought back to his literal body. I reply by asking 
 him another question, Yankee way of doing business. Where do these spirits 
 dwell, after they leave these bodies, and go into the hereafter? I leave it there 
 for the present. 
 
 Now do not try to create the impression that I do not want to have any 
 body in the future world, because I do not want this old literal body brought up 
 again. God bless you, I believe in a body, a spiritual body. Do not try to 
 create the impression that I do not want any body, because I do not believe this 
 animal body will be brought up again in the future world. I have asked you 
 several times to prove in this discussion, that a resurrection of the dead, means 
 a resurrection of the dead bodies. Why do you not make your points few and 
 pointed? 
 
 In regard to the matter of a progressive resurrection, 1 contmue my argu- 
 ment in that direction by reading 1 Samuel 28 : 13, 14 : 
 
 "And the king said unto her: Be not afraid ;»for what sawest thou? And the woman 
 ■said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What forni is 
 
146 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 he of? And she said; An old man oometh up, and he is covered with a, mantle. And Saul 
 perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed himself."' 
 
 There was Samuel, the same old man. Not with his old literal body, but 
 his spiritual body. "Well it is Bible, whether you receive it or not. I see some 
 of you with a scornful smile upon your faces, and I expect you are thinking 
 about Spiritualism. Well it is the Bible declaration, and shows that Samuel 
 had an existence. He was seen by this woman and by Saul. The Bible saysi 
 it was Samuel that said to Saul. You see he could hold conversation : 
 
 ""Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? I am sore distressed; for the Philistines; 
 make war against me, [aays he in answer], and I have called thee, that thou mayest make 
 known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel, "Wherefore dost thou ask of me, seeing 
 the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy. And the Lord hath done to him, 
 as he spake by us: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy 
 neighbor, even to David. * * * Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was 
 sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and thefe was no strength in him; for heliad 
 eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night." 
 
 That presents the idea of a progressive resurrection. He is not only the 
 God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, but all the dead live unto him; and 
 the truth of the matter, after all, is simply this : at the time of death, "The dust 
 returns unto the dust, and the spirit to the Grod who gave it," to be clothed up-, 
 on with that house which is from heaven, which is a spiritual body but not an 
 inmiaterial body,' in my opinion. 
 
 I now reach my fourth counter argument. Immortality and a progressive 
 resurrection are eternal truths. Truth of truths. God's truth is eternal. The 
 sun is the center of the solar system, whether the uninformed believe it or not. 
 The best brain, the best read men, the most scholarly men believe it, whether 
 the uninformed understand it or not. Jesus' declarations are true, and because 
 some one happens to not believe them it does not destroy truth. I will read 
 John 18 : 37. 
 
 "Pilate therefore saith unto him, Art thou a king then ? Jesus answered. Thou sayest 
 that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I 
 should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." 
 
 Mark'^ou, Jesus came to create no new truth, but he came to_bear witness- 
 to the truth. 
 
 2 Timothy 1 : 9, 10. — ""Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not accord- 
 ing to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ 
 Jesus before the world began; but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus 
 Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality into the light through 
 the gospel." 
 
 Then they are eternal truths 'of the gospel, and before existed through all 
 the ages. God was the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob. Jesus did not 
 create the truth of immortality. He brought it into the light, and demonstrated 
 immortality to the world of mankind; therefore it is as true as the sun shining, 
 whether people see it or not. 
 
 Matthew 11 : 1-3. — "And after six days, Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, 
 and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart, and was transfigured before them: and his 
 face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appear- 
 ed unto them Moses and Elias talking with them." 
 
 There Peter, James and John and Jesus from the earth; and Moses and 
 Elias from heaven, constituted this friendly group. Some from heaven, the 
 spirit world, and some having on their earthly bodies; and yet, p,coording to the 
 popular view of the resurrection, it had* taken place. Yet here was Moses and 
 Elias holding converse with the Redeemer and the disciples. I read in this, 
 connection Mark 9 : 14 : 
 
 * We think that Elder Shinn intended to use the word "not" here ; but it was not in the MS. — Ed. 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. HI 
 
 "And there appeared, unto them Elias with Moaea: and they -were talking with Jeaus." 
 They were clothed upon with that house which is from heaven, with that 
 spiritual body, Moses and Elias. Luke 20 : 37 : 
 
 "Now that the dead are raised, [this is the language of Jesua himseiq, even Moaea ahowed 
 at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of laaac, and the 
 God of Jacob. For he ia not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." 
 And thejtime is now. I read injthis connection a parallel : 
 
 "Matthew 29-32. — "Jesua anawered and aaid unto them. Ye do err, not knowing the 
 Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the reaurrection they neither marry nor are given 
 in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven — ' 
 
 "Time" was called. 
 Just let me read, this? 
 Elder Forscutt. "Certainly." 
 
 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which waa spoken 
 unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of laaac, and the God of 
 Jacob? God ia not thejgod of the dead, but of the living." 
 
 Elder Forscutt's fi^h argument: 
 Messrs. Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 At the cljosing part of our investigations on last evening, Mr.Shinn, having 
 the closing speech, presented to us some thoughts which I propose to notice be- 
 fore I proceed with the affirmative of the question before us. And that there 
 may be no mistake respecting the question which is' before us, and that it may 
 be known when we are speaking to the question, and when we are not speaking 
 to it;' that it also be known to the audience when we are keeping within the line 
 of evidence, and when we are straying from it, I again read the proposition, 
 "The Bible teaches a literal resurrection of the body from the grave." King 
 James' translation the standard of reference. 
 
 During the course of the last speech we heard on last evening, the brother 
 contended against the doctrine of a literal resurrection from the dead, on the 
 hypothesis that the body changes once in every seven years. In the first place, 
 I do not grant the hypothesis. Able medical men dispute it, it is therefore not 
 a tenable ground on which to base a theory ; yet it is true, as can easDy be dem- 
 onstrated, that the body is undergoing a change. But instead of seven years 
 being the time in which this change is accomplished, it is owing to. the degree 
 of activity of the body, and to the expenditure of its force or the reservation of 
 its force; and the period ranges from five to twelve years; that is, according to 
 the testimony of experiences as given in "the observations" of some of our best 
 and ablest medical men who have written on medical jurisprudence. 
 
 The brother tells us that the body is not necessary for our identity, and 
 then asked of me, "My brother, have you the same body that you had seven years 
 ago? I answer, relatively speaking, Yes; but I answer, in an absolute sense. 
 No. The gentleman may use the answers as he pleases. When he speaks to us 
 of a person's identity, he uses this argument, that as we change every seven 
 years, therefore the body is not a sufficient guide for our identification. This is 
 the argument ; but is it true as borne out by experience ? I have lived now 
 forty-one years in this world, and though I have past through six different 
 changes, and have had nearly six different bodies, if his idea be correct, yet my 
 mother would be able to recognize me, to identify me, notwithstanding the six 
 different bodies his theory would make out I have had. But after all this theo- 
 rizing about the changing of the body, and the argument that we lose our iden- 
 tity here, because we do change; yet it does not affect the question that in the 
 
148^ FORSOffT^T, ANp.SHINN'8 mj^CUSSIOm 
 
 resurrection we. shall be able to identify each, other, notwithstanding the change 
 we shall have passed through here, when the body, after being raised by the 
 power of God, will not be suWfeet to the ctangfes to which it is subject in this life. 
 
 There are many things in philosophy which we do not understand; many 
 things in our every day experience which we can not comprehend. Why then 
 should we take uncertain philosophy to explain or repudiate the statements of 
 the word of God? Why attempt to show that he will not raise us from the 
 dead, because of the absence of philosophical evidence, seeing his word promises 
 it shall be done? That which in nature was supposed to "be accounted for a few 
 years ago by philosophical evidences of a certain character, is to-day accounted 
 for by philosophical evidences of a different character, and. certified tq with equal 
 assurance. Truth is always philosophical, whethA the developriients of our 
 minds qualify us to understand it philosophically or not; but that which passes 
 current among philosophers, so-called, as philosophy, is not always truth. God, 
 the author of all trtith, has inspired his Son and his servants to teach the doc- 
 trine of the resurrection ; and, though it may seem to be a summary manner of 
 answering "philosophy" on this point, my answer to the objection of philosophy 
 to God's word on this subject is, God has declared it, and he can not lie. 
 
 The brother asks of me, "Why do you not make your points few and point- 
 ed ?" Why, my brother, I can not make them few, because I have so many of 
 them to make; i;hat I do not make them as pointed as you or I would like, must 
 be charged to my inability; not to the doctrine I hold. That I do not make 
 the points you wish me to make, is partly from a consideration for the well-being 
 of the community, to whom I wish to present the truth, rather than what i/ou 
 suppose to he my views of the truth; afad partly that I may not appear to be too 
 personal in anticipating your viewfi, in the remarks I make. As'to the pointed- 
 ness of the arguments, that I submit to the audience for their decision; Elder 
 Shinn is not th£ judge. If we should judge each other very particulgixly, as to 
 the pointednes^f remarks made, I think I should have something to say on that; 
 if it were to be investigated, I think I should be entitled to have something to 
 say on that question; neither yOu' nor I are the judges, however, so we will let 
 that remark pass. • ' 
 
 The brother calls our attention to first Corinthians, fifteenth chapter, and 
 seeks to make out an argument from that, which, at first sight, does seem to 
 have some force. But let us look at it a little closer, and see whether it realli/ 
 possesses the force which it S^^^ to possess when he called our attention to it. 
 He first said it is not the deWTsody which is sown, which is to be raised ; and 
 yet, afterward read for us from the thirty-fifth verse of this chapter, as follows : 
 35. "But some man will say, How are tli& dead raised up? And with what bodydp 
 they come ? 36. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is Hot quickened, except it die: ST. 3Bll 
 that which thou sowest, thou spwest not that body that shaU be." 
 
 In reading this the gentleman was careful to stop at the word "he," and 
 make "his argument". upon it, before he read the rest of the clause. We will 
 read it aS he read it, and then read it in connection with what follows, and see 
 whether or not his conclusion can be properly drawn from it. He reads, "Thou 
 sowest not that body that shall be," and then he .stops and tells us that the apos- 
 tle does not say thou. sowest the body that shall be, but the opposite, "Thou sow- 
 est not." Hence, the gentleman announces, tjiis old body is not the one that is 
 to be ours in the resurrection. That would be quite a clinching argument, if, 
 my brother, this did not depend on something else, or if something else was not 
 given for its explanation. "Arid that which thou sowest," — What did they sow? 
 The body Paul told them of before. Hear him, "Thou sowest not that body 
 that Bha;ll be, hut BARE GRAIN, it may chance of WHEAT or OF SOME 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. , 149 
 
 OTHEK GRAIN;" The apostle here, Sir, was presenting to them the testimo- 
 ny of a fact of their experience; which was known to and borne out by the ex- 
 perience of the farmers then, as now, namely, the sowing and bearing of grain. 
 The grain seed which is sown, bears grain. It germinates and springs forth in- 
 to new life. "But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to eaery 
 seed his ovm body." To have the seed sown without producing, would be fruit- 
 less, and would be no simile, no likeness of the resurrection, truth. God gives if 
 the seed, a new Body; he will do so to man. Paul here simply refers to a phys- 
 ical fact, an experienced fact, to illustrate a tmth by; andj.when the gentleman 
 draws the conclusion froiii this, that he does, he does that which the Scriptures 
 do not warrant him in doing. I will merely remark that the whole statement 
 made, so far as it involves the comparison of the sowing of a man's body to the 
 sowing of wheat or pther grain is concerned, if this be its design, it shows that 
 the body sown is as the seed of the body that will be raised in a body of the same 
 form, as is the grain which we sow the body of in the earth the seed of the fu- 
 ture body. 
 
 Very strange, v*y strange, indeed, I admit, is the doctrine of the sowing 
 of this body the soaring the. seed of the future body; but still more strange, if 
 indeed the spiritual body we are to have supplied to us is to be no part of the 
 body sown ! A very strange kind of sowing, Sir, in the light of Paul's theory. 
 If the body rising", be a spiritual body, in the sense in which you use the term 
 "spiritual body,',' is the body raised any part of the body sown. As the grain 
 sown is to bear grain; so is the body, by some mysterious agency, to generate, 
 spring forth and, be filled with spiritual life and power. This is the idea pre- 
 sented in the text. 
 
 The ,aJ)ostle tells us what kind, of bodies we shall have, so far as their dif- 
 ferent characters, and their personality is concerned, and from his language we 
 can plainly draw an inference in favor of our view of the resurrection of the 
 dead: "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened except it die; and 
 that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but bare grain, 
 iVmay chanee of wheat, or of some other grain. But ,God giveth it a body as 
 it hath, pleased hijia, and to every seed his own body." This all applies tothe 
 sowing by man, and, God's blessing upon it; inferisntially, and partly analogical 
 ly, to the resurrection. • . " , ' 
 
 The brother says we are sown now in corruptible bodies. Yes; but we 
 shall be raised in incorruptible bodies. I do not know what force the brother 
 sees against the resurrection of the body, however, in the consideration of this 
 statement that we are sown now in corruptible bodies. I do not know how he 
 understands the word "sown," and to what it applies in his theory. If by the 
 using of this term he wishes to make us believe or to understand that it r^ers 
 to the spirit .vfithin man, and that it is theispirit which is sown, I can not un- 
 derstand or gather the idea clearly from ihis argument. The Spirit,, it seems to 
 me, is planted in man; and as the gentleman wishes to hold me to th^ analogy 
 in the words, as well as in the idea, I suppose he uses the correct word analog- 
 ically; but I can not conceive of the idea, with the little knowledge I have ot 
 the process of sowing, that the spirit being planted within us, is our being sown, 
 or that the spirit being planted within man is the spirit being sown within hmi; 
 I really fail to comprehendi-the brjother's view., The force of the ; comparison 
 between this, sowing as sowing, and the sowing of; grain I can not see. 1 do 
 not know how mufeh ground the gentleman thinks we will be scattered over in 
 this sowing-process, or in the rising in iricorruption., If the apOstle speakf ot 
 the sowing of the spirit of man within man, I must confess that I fail utterly 
 to comprehend either the apostle's argument or meaning. 
 
150 FOR SCUT T AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 The gentleman tells ns the same body is not to be raised, because of the 
 statement found in the thirty-seventh verse of this fifteenth chapter of first Cor- 
 inthians, "Thou sowest not that body that shall be;" hut that we receive a new 
 body. Yet, just a little before this, he tried to make us believe that it was the 
 spirit which was sown, and not the body. I trust he will try and make this 
 clear to us. 
 
 We are again referred 'to Romans 8:20: 
 
 "For the creature was made subject to vanityv'not willingly ,^but byjreasou of Mm who 
 hath subjected the same ia hope." 
 
 In reply to my argument that the creature here spoken of is the body, he 
 asks, Does the literal body hope ? It is not the body, if I understand the mean- 
 ing or the force of the reading of language at all, it' is not the hody, the thin^ 
 acted upon that hopes, but he who, or that which acts; "and the actor in this 
 case is G-od, — the one who had planted us in this condition of life, who gave to 
 the body its life by implantiiig the spirit within it. If you believe that this be- 
 ing here called "the creature^" is the spirit, and that it is subjected in hope, it 
 involves both contradiction and absurdity, in my view, at least. Is the spirit 
 "the creature" of the body? If the answer be in the affirmative, then is the 
 tody superior to the spirit, its creature; and our friend, in denying the resur- 
 rection of the body, denies life to the superior, the creator; but concedes it to 
 the inferior, the creature. Granted, our view of the relations of the spirit of 
 the body, and the relations of the spirit and body conjoined to the past, present 
 and future, and we have a reason for our present earth state. "For the creature 
 was made subject to vanity, not willingly, (was it the body that' subjected the 
 spirit?) but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope." It is not 
 the body that subjects the spirit; but it is God who subjects the body, and if 
 you will receive it, the spirit also, in hope of their re-union and glory in a future 
 state. 
 
 The brother charges me with trying to throw odium upon him, anchmakes 
 the remark that "those who live in glass houses ought not to throw stones, for 
 they might get their windows broken." The gentleman doubtless thought there 
 was some thing very smart and clever in this ; but it seems to me^ brother, that 
 glass houses do not need to have any windows. You might have left the win- 
 dows out, if you had wanted to say something really smart and clever. The 
 idea that I was trying to throw odium upon him ! I would like to have him 
 find any man or woman in this congregation, one of his own friends here, that 
 will say I have in any sense tried to throw odium upon him. 
 
 In referring to the ttventy-fifth chapter of Isaiah^ I endeavored, from the 
 statement of the prophet of the Lord, to show that the righteous should be re- 
 stored to life, that the grave should give up its dead, that death should be swal- 
 lowed up in victory, and that following this there should be a restoration of 
 Israel to their own land, and that then the song of the house of Jacob should 
 be sung. ' I also spoke of the condition in which Israel is to-day, and in which 
 he has bp^m for hundreds of years, comp&,ring their present with the future after 
 their restoration from their graves. I also made the argument that if in this 
 life the people of G-od are suffering such difficulties, trials and persecutions as 
 are in keeping with the legacy left them by Jesus, and if in the next life aU the 
 wicked, as well as the righteous, attain to the same glorious resurrection, and 
 there is no distinction there, according to the gentleman's theory of the resur- 
 rection, between the wicked and the righteous, then is justice a misnomer. And 
 I repeat it, and add that as in this life the righteous are suffering all kinds of 
 ignominy and reproach, as Jesus said they should, if Mr. Shinn's' theory be 
 true, then the righteous are not so well off as the wicked are. I do not know 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 151 
 
 ■why, and I do .not see how that that is throwing any odium upon the brother, or 
 any reflection upon him. It is merely the answering of his argument by another 
 which he has failed to meet. If we are to take it as casting odium on each other, 
 when we try to answer each other's arguments, we might conclude there has 
 l)een a great deal of odium thrown upon each other in this debate. 
 
 The gentleman tells us, unqualifiedly, that the Book of Mormon teaches 
 that the resurrection of the Saints took place at the crucifixion. Brother, I 
 liave brought the Book of Mormon, and I want to hear that statement read 
 .from it. ^ 
 
 Mr. Forsoutt here handed the book to Mr. Shinn. On receiving the book, 
 Elder Shinn turned over its pages, and said, "This is a different edition and I 
 can not find it." 
 
 ■ Elder Forsoutt. No, Sir, I am well satisfied of that; for it is not there. 
 
 Mr. Shinn quotes for us the testimony to Saul; let us examine it. Saul 
 went to the "witch of Endor" to enquire concerning what he wished to know of 
 Tiis future, — and the brother brings this circumstance to prove, I suppose, (I do 
 not know that I correctly understand him, but I think this was the idea), that 
 when the spirit departs from the body, it is then enolothed with a spiritual 
 Ijody. Was not this the idea, brother, or do I misrepresent you? Is not thjit 
 the idea of a future existence you wished to support by this quotation. Brother 
 -Shinn? 
 
 Elder Shinn, in reply, "The spirit is enolothed with a spiritual body after 
 •death." 
 
 Elder Forsoutt. Very good. "We will take the testimony here quoted 
 by the brother in support of this theory, as found in the chapter the brother re-' 
 ferred us to, 1 Samuel 28. We find on examining it that Saul had ceased to 
 serve God, and that God tad ceased to answer him by Urim and Thummim, or 
 by dreams, or by prophets. And when he had ceased to receive favor of the 
 Lord, when he could no more learn from him in ^any manner by which he 
 ■had learned from him beforetime, Saul then went to enquire of the woman. Yes, 
 Sir, God would not answer him, so he goes to — the — witch — of— Endor. She 
 is here certified to have called up Samuel. But was this Samuel? Was this his 
 spiritual body that was seen by the woman? Did Said see Samuel? If he 
 did, then we are not fully advised by the record, and his questions propounded 
 -to the woman are, to say the least, very peculiar. Hear them. Saul enquired 
 of the woman, "What sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, / saw 
 ■GODS ascending out of the earth." Saul pressed her a little closer, as she 
 had claimed to see Samuel ulso, and enquired, " What form is he of? The wo- 
 man replied, "An old man comethup; and he is covered with a mantle." It 
 •seems that Saul never saw him at 'all. When this description of the man or 
 spirit seen, was given by the woman, we merely read of Saul that he "perceived 
 -that it was Samuel." Perception does not depend on sight. 
 
 Three years ago, I was witness to an illusion of this kind. Another woman, 
 •a medium, in whose company I chanced to be, claimed to see a relative of mine, 
 whom she described, and described so accurately, that I perceived it to resemble, 
 in all his external features and in every pecTiliarity of form, the person whom 
 the medium declared it to be. She claimed to se'e him, I did not see hmi; but 
 I know that the description answered in every respect to one who had gone 
 from earth, and had I been a believer in or a convert to Spiritualism, so-called, 
 I should without any hesitancy have declared the person she described, to be my 
 father, for I should then, doubtless, nave perceived that it was he. Learning 
 from the word of (^oA that fallen spirits can assume even the character of angels, 
 I could easily believe they would, for the purpose of deception, assume the char- 
 
152 FORSOUTT AND SSINN'S DISCTfSSldK 
 
 acter and appearance of mortals; or I might have been deceived a"s easjlj^s ^aul, 
 or Elder Shinn. , ' ,; -, i 
 
 It was soihething like this in the case .of ,Saul, at the appeariiig.of Samuel 
 to the witch of Endor. If the gentleman takes the position that it was Samuel 
 that appeared,, because he told Samuel the truth, it does not afept tW question. 
 If lie wants to know how much truth ha^ been told by thie spirits of falsehood, J 
 Tiave a little book which gives samples of a hundred truths told by the spirits, 
 and ten hundred lies told by the same spirits, on the back of them. , 
 
 The brother quotes from Ecclesiastes, that the spirit returns to God, and 
 tte dust whence it came. It is true. The dust does return to the earth whence 
 it came, and the spirit returns to God. The spirit does not die ; and if it returns, 
 it had been there before — it must have been there before, if "returns" be a cor- 
 rect word to use in this connection. 
 
 The body then, and only that, was made from the dust of the earth; and 
 •it only will be resolved into dust. It is resolved into its primitive conditions; it, 
 and it only, dies, according to the gentleman's own theory; for he quoted this 
 to prove that the spirit lives on. Therefore the tody is the ow^ part of man 
 that does die, according to his own showing. If then the body is the only thing 
 that dies, and there is to be a resurrection of the dead, 1 would like to know 
 what there is that can be raised from the dead except the body which dies. 
 
 [The idea of rising, as presented in the question of the resurrection of the 
 dead, is something more than the mere raising of anything, it is a raising of 
 something from the dead. 
 
 The gentleman quoted for us the testimony of some learned men as regards 
 the meaning of the word resurrection. I am not so fortunate as my brother; as 
 I have no books with me except my Bible and two qr three other books. But 
 I am happy to say I have one testimony here from a standard author of the 
 Methodist denomination. He quoted "a vpry able and learned man" of the 
 Methodist Church; I will quote one also on the meaning of this word. I will 
 read fi/om Mr. Buck, who is considered a standard author by all Christians, from 
 Buck's Theological Dictionary : 
 
 "Eesurredion. A rising again from the state of the dead; gener^rlly applied to the resur- 
 rection of the last day." 
 
 Now, Sir, we will let the one author . answer the other on this point, andi 
 there leave it. 
 
 When the spirit returns to d-od, the gentleman says it is clothgd upon with 
 a spiritual body, I want the proof of that statement. & wants to know wherfr 
 John is. "If Joh^ is alive show him to us," he says; "I will give all my old 
 bciots and shoes to see him." Now, Sir, as you maintain that there is a spiritual 
 body, let us see it, or the evidence of it; we want to know something about it. 
 Just exactly the same demand as tliat you made; but no argument.^ If John, 
 lives, his body was changed, and was made after the fashion of the eternal, by 
 tlie ch9,nge it passed through ; it is no longer mortaj. The spiritual bodyyoui 
 say, is also eternal, made so by the change. You challenge our faith, I,, chal- 
 lenge yours; and 1 ask you for the proof, if it be true th^it the spirit, has,, a spir- 
 itual body when it digs. , I do not expect you to furnish any, however, any 
 more than we will stow John ; they are both questions of /aiV^. ,, ,, ' ; 
 
 The brother, guptes for us the testimony of Matthew.: "Behold there appesar- 
 ed unto them Moses ^nfl Elias, talking with them." . Here he claims we have 
 the eyidpoe that th^se men had. been raised from the dea4. "We ha,ve here 
 two fi'oin heaven, and four froni earth that constitute this friendly group," he 
 informs us. Now then,if two from heavpn and four from earth met Jtherg, sup- 
 posing that it be so, does it argue conclusively that these two had spLrituai' 
 
FORSGUTT AND SJSINN'S DISCUSSION. 15$ 
 
 bodies? Certainly tie brother Jcnows full well, that the tewn,Elia& in the- New 
 Testament, is the same as Elijah in the Old Testament. , He . knovf^, full well 
 that, according to the scriptures, Elijah carried up, hip, body into he^yen, took 
 his body with him. If, therefore, Elijah appeared in his body, the brother was. 
 arguing on bur side in introducing him. «/ ... ^ 
 
 Now as to Moses. If Moses died, it is something strange that he should 
 write the account of his own death. Writers have written histories of thew lives, 
 but_ whoever wrote the account of his own death? It is a good thing Joseph 
 Smith did not write such an account as that; a good thing it is not found in 
 what are specially our books. If we accept this account we must accept it on 
 the hypothesis that it' was either written by himself, or introduced by another 
 into the writings bearing his name. The account given to us is tl^is: 
 
 "Deut. 34: 5, 6.— "So Moses, the servant of the lord, died there in the land of Moab, ac- 
 cording to the word of the Lord. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over 
 against Beth-peor: but no man knoWeth of his sepulchre unto this day." 
 
 It was no doubt written by Ezra, and not by Moses. Though in one of the 
 books of Moses, it was, written o/him, rather than 6y him. If God h^d inspired 
 this record of him, he might have revealed the place of his burial, but unto this 
 day no man knoweth of his sepulchre." 
 
 "And Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, 
 nor his natural force abated." 
 
 Was this death, as we use the word, or death only to a mortal state — a 
 change analagous to death? 
 
 I want the gentleman to explain to me one peculiar phrase found in the 
 book of Jude; for we certainly, have a right to some degree of doubt in reading 
 the account in an unqualified sense. The ministiratiop to whiflh he referred us 
 in Matthew was by one changed from mortality, yet having his earthly body, so 
 changed as to be glorious; why not by two instead of one? If for some pur- 
 pose Elijah was sent in a glorified body to minister to one in a mortal state, why 
 not for the same purpose Moses be similarly preserved, ,and similarly sent, and 
 Johij too ? Let us look at the testimony concerning Moses, Jude, 9t) : 
 
 "Yet Michael, the Archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed dbovt THE 
 BODY OF MOSES." 
 
 I would' like to know what dispute they could have legitimately- had about 
 the body of Moses, if that boc(y died, and was buried, as were the bodies of oth- 
 ers. When the sin that visited the earth brought the penalty death; th© penal- 
 ty was due from all men, Moses included; if he triumphed over death, there was 
 ground for dispute. Think you not according to this, tb^t^e must have received 
 power over death, and that when this cpndition Became due, which we call^leath, 
 the adversary, being resolute to maintain his claim upon him, disputed against 
 the sacrifice of that claim? , If Moses died, in the same sense as do- other men, 
 the same condition in which all men are involved, came upon bim as comes upon 
 all, and there could then be no dispute about his body. If Mpses only received 
 the spiritual body at de^th T^hich friend Shinn says we.g,}l receive, what ground 
 for dispute would exist between Michaei the Archangel, or chief angel of lif^ 
 and Satan the, chieftain of the powers of death, about THE BQDYi of Moses? 
 Reason answers, there could be none. Accept my position, that, th^ death of' 
 Moses was a 4e,ath only to mortality, instead of a death in mortality ; a change- 
 of the elements of the body from a mortal to a glorious state, instead of: a deatiji 
 or dissolu^tion of those elements; and the cause for contention between Miehaei 
 and Satan is ibund; the Scriptures are harmonized; the unity -of thought in, 
 considering the object, supposable though unrevealed, why both wha ministeredi 
 to Jesus on the Mount of transfiguration should be embodied yet glosious beings,, 
 
154 FOItSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 standing in the same relationship to heaven by the spirit, and to earth by the 
 body, that he did, when he was transfigured before them is established j these 
 three formed a grand,- triune representation of the glory with which God will 
 ■crown humanity in its changed or resurrected state. 
 
 The brother quotes for us Luke 20:37, "Now that the dead are raised," — 
 "Time," said the Moderator, and Elder Forscutt ceased speaking. 
 
 Elder Shinn's reply to Elder Forscutt's fifth argument : 
 QenH&M&n, Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 It is a little remarkable this morning, that my brother should place him- 
 self on the negative of this question. I want this audience to bear in mind that 
 his place in this discussion to-day, has been to ^ke the lead, take the affirmative. 
 I, not fearing to develop my theory of the resurrection; not fearing that my 
 brother and all the rest of the world might know my position, have frankly pre- 
 sented it, and the result has been to place my brother on the negative side of 
 this question. 
 
 It looks a little to me, as though he was afraid to develop his theory, and 
 would rather discuss on the negative, and shows that I had done something in 
 his estimation at any rate. 
 
 Well, the body does not change every seven years, he says. It has been 
 recently discovered, that all the particles of the body except the bone, or two or 
 three of the particles which help to make the bone, would be changed in seven 
 years. Suppose it does take from five to twelve years, my argument is the same. 
 If we have a new body every ten years my argument stands unansweted. 
 
 The- brother has talked something about pointedness. What I meant 
 •by that, my brother, was I would be glad for you to develop your theory of the 
 resurrection, that we might all fully understand it. That is all I meaJit. I do 
 think you have been a little cautious in developing your theory of the resurrec- 
 tion in this discussion. I think this people think so also. He calls my atten- 
 tion to 1 Corinthians 15:35-38: 
 
 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with, what body do they 
 come ?" 
 
 Precisely so. That is the question at issue here between my brother and 
 myself; - "How are the dead raised up ?" especially, "with what body do they 
 flome? Thou foolish man, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it 
 ■diei And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be." 
 Here the apostle draws an analogy between the sowing of grain, and the spirit, 
 or resurrection of mankind. The analogy being drawn from the grain he says, 
 "Thou sowest hot that body," not that same body of the grain you sow, "Thou 
 sowest not that body that' shall be." Now, I reason from the analogy thus: 
 Having declared, "That which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall 
 be; but bare grain, it may chance of wheat or of some other; but God giveth it 
 a body as it hath pleased him." I maintain, here we have evidence, "Thou 
 sowest not that body that shall be." Now here is the body sown. What I said 
 about sowing was, we are sown now. That within us answering to the germ in 
 the grain, and the germ of the grain answering to that within us, which' is to be 
 raised. It is the spirit entity in man, not the body. "Thou sowest not that 
 hody that shatibe." I want my brother to remember that I make this argument 
 here and emphasize it. I have an argument to present from the fifteenth chap- 
 ter of Corinthians,' as soon as I can get to it. I want to answer what my broth- 
 er says first. I hope my brother understands me by this time in regard to the 
 sowing. I do not understand my brother, that this sowing can be at death. Is 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 155 
 
 it common for dead grain to grow ? When the germ is dead in the grain when 
 it is sown, you might sow it but it never colild sprout anywhere. You destroy 
 the analogy forever in speaking of this sowing. The sowing is now in the living 
 body, in this body. Now is the time we are sown. 
 
 Komana 8 : 20-23 I wish to notice : "For the creature was made subject to 
 frailty, not by its own will." "What he says the ereature means is the body. 
 Has the body volitionary powers? Has the body will powers? The creature 
 has. "But for sin, who subjected it in hope. The creature itself also shall be 
 delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the chil- 
 dren of God. _ For we know that every creature groaneth, [Does the literal body 
 groan ?], in pain together until now. Not only £hey, but ourselves abo who have 
 the first fruits of the Spirit." 
 
 The creature is that which has the first fruits of the spirit. Is that the 
 body, the literal body? Does he say that of the literal body? "Even we our- 
 
 of our ' 
 
 bodies. I want to read in connection Philippii 
 
 "But 6ur oitteenship is in" heaven, whence also we look for the Savior, the lord Jeaua 
 Christ, 21. who will transform our humbled body, and make it like his glorious body, accord- 
 ing to that power hy which he is able to subdue all things to himself." 
 
 I have-read from Br. H. T. Anderson's translation. Isaiah 25 ; I wish to 
 make this explanation in regard to Isaiah 25 : 6, 7, 8. It represents the govern- 
 ment of the world by Jesiis Christ. When his government extends over all, he 
 will swallow up death in victory, and the Lord God shall "wipe away tears from 
 off all faces." This refers to the establishment of the reign of the Messiah, the 
 gospel reign, here in the world, and also to its final consummation. Now the 
 brother would try to make you believe, — mark it, — the point of difference is as 
 to the time of Jesus coming to be judge of the world. ' I called his attention to 
 Corinthians, showing the end of his reign, and certainly presented my view of 
 that consummation spoken of in Isaiah 25; at the end of the reign. 
 
 In Corinthians it is said, "Then cometh the end," at the end of the reign. 
 At that time he "delivers up the kingdom to God, the Father, that he may be 
 ' all in all." He then ceases to be judge forever, precisely ivhere my brother 
 says he becomes judge. A little difference between us you see in regard to that 
 point. It might be well enough if he wants to work upon the negative of this 
 question, to take that point of the matter and work upon it. 
 
 He tries t^ make light of Samuel coming up, and tries to get up a laugh if 
 he could.. Samuel being presented, he then turns and he blusters some about 
 Spiritualism. My brother says he has a book giving some truths the spirits 
 have told him, and many falsehoods. I believe that Spiritualism teaches some 
 beautiful truths, and some falsehoods. But as it regards this inatter, here in 
 first Samuel, twenty-eighth chapter. It shows enough to induce a belief in a 
 present resurrection, or a continuation of the life of the s{)irit. I do not think 
 he could have been seen unless he had a body, and that passage says he was 
 seen. He was seen, or the account is false. Let him settle the trouble with 
 the Bible. The presentation of this case, indicates that they believed in a con- 
 tinuation of the life of human spirits. 
 
 I call my brother's attention in this connection to some other passages of 
 Scripture, showing our view, the view of Mosep, of Jesus Christ, and of Davidj 
 that there was a continued existence. Of that in the case of Jesus Christ and 
 Moses, Moses declared God was "the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob." 
 Jesus shows afterward that they were living; for he says that God was "the God 
 
156 FORSGUTT AND SmNJSF'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 of • Abraham, and, of Isaac, and (?f, Jacob;"- and then says,, "For ke is not the 
 God of the. plead, but of the living; /or aZ^ZiVe M»^o^i>n.."i.i ? - ,^ 
 
 EcclesiasteB 12 :7 the brother quotes. I claijn-thfit,>fhich]I presented, that 
 at death the spirit returns to (jojd, and the body to t]^e|dust. I «laiin it jp con- 
 clusive, i^ is plain, showing at the time of the death of the" body, that the earth 
 claims that which is earthy, and heaven claims Jt^ own, the spirit entity. The 
 declaration i.s,j*'The(iu^t returns to t^e dust, and th^,spirii^ returjis tp God who 
 gave it." Theretheihatter rests upon the very same; foundation of truth. It 
 was true then, it is true now. ' , ; 
 
 Whai is meant, by the dead. . Brother, I w:ouId.Jike tp have you prove in 
 this discussion, "before you go much farther, that the dead means, dead bodies. 
 If you do, the poipt stands against you in this declaration, "Thou sowest not that 
 bp^y that shall be. The brether's bpdy is sown, this is the literal bedy sown; 
 it is now sown, and the positive declaration is, "Thpu spwest ,not thai body that 
 shall he." Npw get it in if ypu can, that same bedy. But, he talks about John 
 again. Wpuld like tp get up a laugh about my saying I weuld give all my old 
 boots and shoes to see him. Well they are about all I have to spare. I think, 
 however I am liberal still. I think there are otJiers who would like to see John 
 as well as myself, if he is now living. It would end this matter, as far as the 
 first proposition >s concerned., if you can only produce John. , . 
 
 fle wante me to give proof of the spiritual body., I give proof, from the 
 first epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, fifteenth chapter, "There is a natural 
 body, and there is a spiritual body." I want to intrpd.nce secend Corinthians 
 in this connection. 
 
 "For we know that, if our earthly house of this tabernacle be dissolved, we have a build- 
 ing of God, a house ijot.made with hands, eternal in the heavens." — 2, Cor.. 5:1. j ,„ 
 
 What is meant by this house?; *'Grod givdth it a body, as it hathi pleased 
 him." You can have a body. God will give you a spiritual body, a house 
 which is from heaven. It is of the heavenly, because it is spiritual. This body 
 is of the earth, earthy. That which is to come is, of. heaven, is spiritual, it is 
 heavenly. ... 
 
 I pointed you to -the appearance of Moses and Elias. , He blusters about, 
 that, and tries to make it appear simply because Elias was translated, Moses 
 might have^been. M^akes light of the idea that Moses could have recorded his 
 own death. Talks something abputin^dels, Thinks it must have been record- 
 ed by Ezra. 
 
 We find in "the hply record, as the brpther read, spmething'regprded abput 
 the death pf Moses; and if TElzra. recorded the fact that Moses did die ' that set- 
 tles the matter, whether he was translated or not, my bi'other. 
 
 Then there was Moses and Elias, Peter, James, John find Jesus, four ,frpm 
 earth and two frpm heayen censtituting this friendly group. The disQijples saw 
 Moses and Elias there. They we>re clothed upon, I 4oubt not, with tha't body 
 which is frem heayen. If not, they could not have.. known them.' They saw 
 them, according, to the record, , 
 
 Let me call my brother's attention to anpther passage in this ccnnectien : 
 
 Rev. 22: 9. — "Then said he unto me. See that thou do it ijipt; fpr I am thy fellow ,ae:;vant 
 and of thy brethren, the prophets, and of them which keep'the savings of this book- wofshio 
 God." -■-.-. : ! :: -.■ . ', .■ ■ ' - ■ :;<• 
 
 Did not this angel possess form ? Is it not a gi-arid testimony of the Scrip- 
 tures, that angels possess form? Hpw did Jpseph Sinith cpme tp know' Nephi 
 when he 'appeared tp- him; if he had np fprm. The truth of it is, he had a ferm, 
 if Jpseph Smith ever saw him. The truth pf it is, the angel here had a' form, a 
 bpdy. 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 157 
 
 V \' 1. / '/. . . - ■■ 
 
 "I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. Then 
 saith he unto me, See that thou do it not; for I ana thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren, 
 the prophets." 
 
 Then he was a person who had lived on the earth. '^I am thy fellow ser- 
 vant, and of thy hrethren, the proiphets ; and of them which keep the sayings of 
 this book : worship God." Work on that a while. That is all we haye to in- 
 trbduoe pn that matter now. ■ . ' 
 
 ■ I propose now to finish the development of my theory of the resurrection, 
 to introduce Corinthians, fifteenth chapter. I shall begin with the twelfth verse. 
 Now, remember, that this is in support of my view of a progressive resurrection. 
 
 "Nowif Christ be preacHedthkt he rose from the dead, how say some among you that 
 there is no resurreetion Of the dead? But if there be' no resnrrfeotion of the dead, then is 
 Christ not risen.'V 
 
 Look at that closely, my brother, and mark the language : 
 
 ', ",If tjiere be no resurrection c^f' the dead then ia Christ not risen. And if Christ be not 
 risen, then is our preaching vaiUj and- your faith 'is also vain. Tea, and we are found false 
 witnesses of God; beoanse we-have testitedof Gfod that he raised up Christ; whom he raised 
 not up. If so be tlat tlie deiSd risp not. Fgr if;tl^e dead.rwe not, tjien is Qhrist not raised; and 
 if Christ.ba not raised, your faith, is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also-which are 
 fillen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we tave hope in Christ, we are of all 
 men niost miserable.' But now is Cthrist risen from the dead, and Ijecome the first fruits of 
 them that slept. ■ ' ' ' ' 
 
 So were the others that were dead at the time risen, and the fact of their 
 being risen from the dead, was predicated upon the fact of Christ's resurrection. 
 If he be risen from the dead, others ar6 risen from the dead.' 
 
 "And now is Christ risen from the dead and become the first fruits of them that slept. 
 For as in Adam all-die ; even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But 'every man in his own 
 Order; Christ, the first fruits; afterwards they' that are Christ's at his comingi" 
 
 Some translators' say, "being as Christ' is the first fruits." Mark you, 
 Christ, in the order that will- be here, is the first fruits; afterward "they that 
 are Christ's at his coming." This cotiiing' when 'he w*!!! bring the dead with 
 him, I lunderstand this to mean. ■ 
 
 I will read this again^ and I wish you to notice this point closely, my 
 hearers: '' -'' ' "/•;!"'' ■ ,• • ' ".■ 
 
 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive; but every man in his 
 own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." 
 
 All are Christ's at his coming is indicated here. This coming indicated is 
 at the end of the mediatorial reign, when he shall have, accomplished the object 
 of his mission, and constituted all souls pure. Then cometh the end of that 
 mediatorial reign, when the kingdom ahxill be delivered up to God the I'ather: 
 
 ""When he shall have put down ail rule, and all authol-ityand power;' for he must reign 
 till he hath put all enemies under- his feet, i The last enetny that shall be destroyed is death. 
 For hs h^th put all things under big feet. But wlien he saith ail things are put under him, it 
 is iganifested that he is excepted which did put all things undsr him.. And when all things 
 shall'be sulidued unto him, the.n shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all 
 things undet- him, that 'G6d m'ay be! all in all. Else what shall-they do Which ,are baptized for 
 the dead, [What does the brother think the dead means here? The dead bodies !] if the 
 dead rise not at all? 'tt^hyare they then baptizedifor 'the .dead? -And why stand we in 
 jeopardy eyeryhour? I jprpfest by your rejoicing which.I have in Christ Jesus our. Lord, I 
 die daily." " ' 
 
 .Now, I wish to be understood in regard to this matter. 
 
 Terse 35. — "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what 
 body do they come ?, Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened except it .die : and 
 that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may 
 chance of wheat or of soine other grain; but? G-od giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and 
 to every 'seed his own body. All flesh is not the saine flesh; but there is one kind of flesh of 
 
158 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 men, and another flesh. Of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. * * * Sc^bo is the 
 resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is.raised in incorruption." 
 
 I call my brother's attention to this now. I remark, that there is nothing 
 in the original answering to the pronoun "it." I have no objection, however, 
 of receiving it, with the understanding that it relates to the germ which is to be 
 raised. Let me explain. The whole theory of the resurrection rests upon this 
 fact, "thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain." The "it" repre- 
 sents the part of the grain which germinates and springs forth. "It is sown in 
 corruption." The "it" answering to what becomes unfolded in the plant. 
 "Raised in incorruption." The brother can certainly understand this. If the 
 sowing be at death, you would have to have it that matter was raised in gloiy. 
 Sown in weakness," matter, raised in power; sown animal matter, raised a spiritual 
 body." That is certainly my understanding of that matter. 
 
 The body here spoken of, according to my understanding of the matter, is 
 the natural, animal body. "There is a natural body." It is an animal body in 
 fact, which is a better translation. "And there is a spiritual body." I doubt 
 not myself, that Elias was clothed in that spiritual body at the time he was 
 translated. The angels that have come from heaven to earth, have been clothed 
 upon with that house from heaven; that spiritual body. "There is a natural 
 body, and there is a spiritual body." I will read in this connection, i 
 
 PhiL 1 : 23, 24. — "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart and be 
 
 with Cliriat; which is far better: nevertheless, to abide in the flesh is more needful for yon." 
 
 You remember the evidence that I introduced in this connection from 
 Corinthians 12, "I knew a man above fourteen years ago, whether in the body 
 or out of the body I can not tell," showing that the man, the spirit entity might 
 be in the body or out of the body. "Such an one was caught up to the' third 
 heaven." Other testimony I introduced in that connection, and called my 
 brother's attention especially in Corinthians 15:35-38, "But some man will 
 say. How are the dead raised up ? And with what body do they come?" And 
 the declaration, "Thou sowest not that body that shall be." One other point I 
 want to notice. 
 
 Elder Shinn's half hour had expired; and "Time," from the Moderator 
 prevented further speech. 
 
 Elder Forscutt proceeded with his sixth argument. 
 Messrs. Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 My brother does not seem to feel pleased that I am taking what he calls 
 the negative in this discussion. He does not like my answering and removing 
 his objections; this is the secret. He says I am moving very cautiously. True; 
 I am. I expect to move cautiously in the things of God. I think we ought to 
 be cautious, very cautious in these things. I shall not notice this time but very 
 little of what has been said by him, but proceed to unfold our own theory, as he 
 wishes us to do. 
 
 The cases of Moses and Elias I leave. The question about the angel com- 
 ing to John I leave. The question about angels appearing in ancient times L 
 leave, and simply state, that as much as the brother believes it, so much more 
 do I believe it, and so does the Church I represent. But one thought I would 
 give here, which may be new to the brother, in relation to our faith, and that is 
 this: There is a possibility of spirit existence without a body of any sort. He 
 says the spirit must Seenclothed in form. We believe the spirit tfee^ has a 
 J form, and that the spirit within man is of the form of the body of man, in every 
 particular; so far as relates to its individuality, its size, and its general features, 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN' 8 DISCUSSION. 159 
 
 it is in appearance, to those in its sphere, the same as the body is to those on 
 earth. 
 
 My third proposition is this : TMess the doctrine of, the resurrection be true, 
 the promises of hoth the Abrdhamic and the Christian covenants wiUfaU. 
 
 In regard to the Abrahamic covenant, I will simply observe, and leave my 
 brother to refute me if he can, — 
 
 Firstly; that God made to Abraham certain distinct promises, representing 
 inheritance in the land of Palestine; that he again made to Isaac and Jacob 
 those same promises, and repeated them or renewed them to others in Israel. 
 
 Secondly; that those promises never were realized ; that Abraham himself 
 was a stranger in the land; that he never did inherit it; though God had said, 
 The land whereon thou standest will I give to thee for an inheritance," etc., and 
 on this base the argument that if there be no resurrection of the dead, that they 
 may be restored to the land which God promised they should inherit, then will 
 the promise of God fail,, so far as the Abrahamic covenant is concerned. 
 
 It will not do for our friend to change the location from Palestine to 
 heaven; God did not say that inheritance should be in heaven, but on "this 
 land," — "th^ land whereon thou standest." Unless the children of Israel are re- 
 stored to the body, so that they can inherit that land, then will this promise 
 have failed. _ • 
 
 In relation to the promises of the Christian covenant. God made specific 
 promises to the believers, as a people, through Jesus and the apostles; among 
 the rest of them, is that of Jesus Christ found in the fifth chapter of Matthew, 
 and fifth verse, "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." This 
 is a promise of Jesus Christ, the highest and "best developed" spiritual being in 
 heaven or on earth, the Father only excepted; and however materialistic it may 
 appear, it is a promise in the Christian covenant. There are also other prom- 
 ises and prophecies which our brother has quoted, which, we believe, never can 
 be realized, unless the body be restored to life. 
 
 Proposition 4th. Tim righteous will be raised to glory; the wiclced, to con- 
 demnation. _ • _ ' 
 
 The gentleman wants me to state distinctly, what will be lraised._ I have 
 already said it is the body. I repeated it this morning, and now again. It is 
 the body, and THE BODY ONLY that shall be restored to life. _ By the arguments 
 of yesterday, it can be plainly seen where I stand. I said then it_ was the 
 body; and that as the body is now "quickened" by blood; so then it will be 
 quickened by Spirit. I quoted, I think, first Corinthians, fifteenth chapter. 
 
 The brother seems to have gathered tl^e idea himself, and tries to convey 
 that idea to us, that the body in the resurrection will be a spiritual body, and 
 that therefore it shall be, if not immaterial, so nearly so that it may be seen or 
 may be not seen at pleasure, as Samuel was when brought up by the "witch of 
 Endor," when he could be seen only by the woman, while Saul, the man there^ 
 could not see him. That^is his view. 
 
 Our view is that the righteous will have a spiritual body hke the body^ 
 which Jesus had. This body was essentially a spiritual body, yet the body 
 raised from the dead was the same body that he had in mortality. It was_a 
 spiritualized body; filled with the Spirit of God. The central governmg Spirit 
 who rules in heaven is God. He is a Spirit; yet he has personality. Jesus is 
 the express image of his person, and his body, therefore, wasa spiritual body. 
 It was governed by spiritual influence; it had spiritual life infused into it; it- 
 was purely spiritual in all its aspirations; all its thoughts, all its powers were 
 spiritual; and, therefore, it was a spiritual body. It was, however, none the 
 less a real, tangible body, as evidenced by the testimony, (a testimony never 
 
160 FORSGUTT AND SSIff^.S DISCUSSION. 
 
 iborne about Samuel, Elder Stinn's .prototype), "A spirit hath not flesh and 
 bdnesas'ye see me havei' The testimony teaches us, that though it was clearly 
 a spiritual body, it was also a material body, equally as material as when it was 
 in mortality. It was a body of matter ^till, but it had more power, because the 
 true force Was within it. " 
 
 There are secondary forces in nature which operate upon matter with a 
 wondrous power; elpptrieity jfor instance. Introduce a little superabundant elec- 
 tricity into this rpom, and it will be instantly manifest in its effects. Increase 
 the volume, and the room will tremble; augment it still, and its parts will separ- 
 ate; add to it again, and it will grumble to atoms. All forces are governed by 
 the same laws; but tte spirit force is higher than all, governs all. 
 
 The Spirit of God is thte controller of this force; aye, the very essence of 
 power over all substance. This Spirit, when infused into a body, can transport 
 it from realm i to realm, though the body be as .material and as heavy as now. 
 Nothing in the world can hinder its operations. By that Spirit we are to be 
 raised. 
 
 The apostle reasons in the quotation read by my brother, twelfth verse : 
 "Now if Christ be preacliecl that Tie' rose from the dead, how say some among you that 
 there is no reaurreotion of the dead ?" 
 
 He presents here an argument for me. I thank my brother for, part of the 
 time, helping me with my subject. 
 
 "13; But if there be no resmrection of the bead, [Paul says],, then is Christ not risen:- 
 14.. And if Christ be notriseny fcre is our preaching vain,.ahd yOur faith is also vain. 15. 
 Tea,' and we are found /a&e iirUnesses of God-; iecause we have testified of G-od that he raised up 
 Christ; whom he raised not up, if so he thai the dead rise not." 
 
 If the dead rise not, if the doctrine of the resurrection be not true, these 
 five results are to follow: 
 
 First, Our preaching is vain; 
 
 Second, Tour faith is also vain; 
 
 Thied, Te are yet in your sins; i. c, have no spiritual life; 
 
 Fourth, We are found false vntnesses; 
 
 Fifth, All who are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 
 
 ' These five conclusions are inevitable, provided there be no resurrection of 
 the dead,"and sad indeed is man's condition. The apostle's method here is the 
 logician's reductio ad absurd-urn, that is, proving a proposition by showing the 
 opposite to lead to irrational conclusions, literally reducing it to an absurdity; 
 and well does he do this. 
 
 Provided too, that there is no literal resurrection of the body; provided 
 that the bpdy had on earth is no more to be restored; then, indeed, may we ask 
 the questions, Are our resurrected bodies to be like unto the body of Christ? 
 Are there to be the same conditions attaching to them as to his? If not, the 
 Christian promises fail too. , 
 
 Turn to the- testimony read yesterday evening from Luke 24 : 36— 44:, and 
 you will see that the argument can be very clearly drawn from it that I present- 
 ed last evening : 
 
 "And as they then spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, 
 Peace be unto you. (31) But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had 
 seen a spirit. (38) And he said unto them, "Why are ye troubled ? and why do tljoughts arise 
 in yotir' hearts? (39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is / myself: handle rae and see; 
 for a spirit hkth not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (40) And when he had thus spoken, 
 he showed them his hands and his feet. (41) And while they yet believed not for joy, and 
 wondered,. he said unto them, Have ye here. any meat? . (42) And they gave him a piece of 
 a broiled fish and, of a honey comb. (43) And he took it, and did eat before them." 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 161 
 
 The body of Jesus wf.s exactly the same that he had in his earthly estate, 
 his mortal state, so far as flesh and bones were concerned. Ours are to be like 
 his. 
 
 I think, too, as we gather from other evidence, especially from the testi- 
 mony of Paul to the Coloseians, 1 : 18, that as Christ "is the first horn from the 
 dead," he was the first resurrected being. Further, that if he is the t'irst born 
 frovi the dead, and we are to be raised in his likeness, we too shall be raised; 
 our bodies will be raised from the dead also, and raised in glory, if we serve him. 
 But I pause here to ask the gentleman. What was it that was raised ? What 
 was it that was dead of Fesus? Was his Spirit dead. Sir? Was there any 
 of the germ principle dead, that you have spoken of, Sir? What was it that 
 was dead ? The body only. The only part about him that was dead, was the 
 body. "If Christ be not raised," if the body be not restored, if Christ's natural 
 body be not restored by divine power, "then is our preaching vain and your faith 
 is also vain." These sad cesults are to follow if the natural body of Christ be 
 not raised, if it has not had given unto it new life from God. 
 
 The expression, '■yirst born," would be a very improper phrase to use. Sir, 
 if there never was to be another one born in like manner. It would seem ridic- 
 ulous to talk about the first born of a family, if there was but one child born in 
 the family. Yes, Sir, Jesus is "the first born from the dead;" and therefore, 
 instead of your progressive theory being true, which teaches that the resurrec- 
 tion has been going on ever since Abel died, Christ was the first that rose from 
 the dead; — instead of the resurrection having been going on from the time of 
 Adam down to Christ, there were none raised before Jesus; no, not even Adam. 
 You promised. Sir, to prove from the Book of Mormon that some men were 
 raised before Jesus, at his crucifixion; but. Sir, you can not find it in that book, 
 ^nd I expect you. Sir, to take that statement back before this people, or find it. 
 Again, in Acts 26 : 22, 23, we find the statement made that "Christ was 
 \!b.& first that should rise from the dead." 
 
 How Christ was the first, the appointed first that should rise from the 
 dead, — and this word fiist is properly used here, for the Holy Spirit certainly 
 used correct language, eertainly did not aim to deceive, — ^how then this word 
 should be used in refercEce to Christ first rising from the dead, and yet there is 
 never to be another that «hall rise, is a mystery for Elder Shinn to solve. If 
 Christ is to be the only one that shall rise from the dead; if his body, and his 
 only will be restored, why is this statement made that Christ should be the first 
 that should rise from the<dead? If he is the first, there will be, or has been, a 
 second and a third, and tfiere may be millions, for he is called "the first born 
 among many brethreB-"' 
 
 John, in the sixth chapter, thirty-ninth to forty-fifth verses,_ which were 
 read to you yesterday in my affirmative argument, tells us that Christ speaks of 
 the resurrection as being an event that shall take place at the "last day." In 
 order for the resurrection ito be "at the last day;" of course it would be after 
 this word was spoken, after this statement was made, "I will raise them up at the 
 last day." It was a day 5®t future, clearly and distinctly future from that time, 
 and a long time in the futwe, too; at the great day to be. 
 
 The audience will remember how Elder Shinn tried to twist around this 
 last day question; but Hhen," at that time, then shall they see the sign of the 
 Son of man in heaven; iheii they shall see the Son of God coming with power 
 and great glory; then shall the dead arise and be brought to judgment. Each 
 event in its order. 
 
 We now turn to the quotation that has before been made, from 1 Thessalo- 
 nians 4 : 13-17 : 
 
162 FORSGUTT AND SHINJSTS DISCUSSION. 
 
 "13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are 
 asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that 
 Jesus died and rose again, ewn «o." ,, 
 
 Here the argument can be made the same as in the fifteenth of first Corin- 
 thians, where the apostle says that "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall 
 all be made alive." Here we have it, "If we believe that Jesus died and rose 
 again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will Grod bring with him." They 
 which SLEEP in Jesus. Are these the ones you told us about yesterday, Sir, 
 ■who, as soon as their bodies die, have their spirits clothed upon with a spiritual 
 body, and return to God in this condition, without sleep ? If this be their con- 
 dition directly after death, it surely is not sleep; Enjoying the rich spiritual 
 power and blessings of association with God, surely there is no sleep in that con- 
 dition ! What then is the sleep referred to ? It is the sleep of the body. The 
 body dies, it is then asleep. Sleep is a very proper term to represent the un- 
 ' conscious state of their bodies by. The promise of God is that as Jesus rose 
 from the dead, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 
 
 "15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and re- 
 main unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord 
 himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with 
 the trump of God : and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 
 
 Why are these two terms introduced? The first term is, "They which 
 sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Not bring all the world at that time? 
 Oh I no. Not that Christ as the first fruits and they that are Christ's at his 
 coming constitute all, all mankind? Oh! no. They consist only of those wJio 
 sleep in Jesus. Not those who shall have perished in their wickedness, who 
 shall have been rebellious against the laws of God ; not they, but the obedient 
 will Jesus bring with him. Those who "sleep in Jesus," are those who kept 
 the commandments of God, those who glorified God in their bodies and in their 
 spirits which are his ; these are the ones whom God shall bring with him; these 
 are the ones whom Jesus shall raise from the dead at the time of his coming; 
 these are they who "shall rise first" from their sleep of death. 
 
 Now, take the second sentence or term, "And the dead in Christ shall rise 
 first." They are dead in fact, as to the body; but they sleep in Christ, because 
 that Christ who died and rose again according to the Scriptures, has promised 
 to raise them up; they were baptized into Christ; while living, they lived to 
 him, hence they are also «aid to sleep in him, and their dust, I believe under 
 the promise here made, will be restored to form, new life be given to it, be in- 
 fused into it, and it, as a living body, be clothed with powers of eternal life 
 when thus brought again into being. 
 
 This resurrection, this "first resurrection," this "resurrection to life," is 
 something to be attained unto; something growing out of spiritual conditions; 
 something following the existence of spiritual life which affects us here; it is 
 soniething to be attained unto by an observance of God-given laws. 
 
 I call your attention now to the fifth chapter and twenty-first verse of John, 
 "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son 
 quickeneth" — "all men?" No, Sir. There are no such words there; but 
 "even so the Son quickeneth whom he will," WHOM he will. Perhaps the 
 brother will tell us that Jesus "wills" the salvation of every creature in the 
 world, and therefore wills that every creature should come with him. We will 
 search and find out whether this is the case or not : 
 
 "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quicken- 
 eth whom he will. 22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment,, 
 unto the Son: 23. that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. 24.1 
 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, 
 
FORSGUTT AND SHINW S DISCUSSION. 163 
 
 Jbath everlasting life, and sliall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto 
 'iliie. 
 
 There are certain conditions presented, upon which we may pass from 
 •death unto life; if we honor these conditions, we shall be accounted among the 
 lighteous who will be raised to glory; but if we honor them not, among the 
 •wicked who will be raised to condemnation. The hearing of the word, not mere- 
 ly audiently, but submissively; (granted, of course, the opportunity of hearing); 
 the believing on God, not merely assentingly, but practically, faith leading to 
 obedience; the possessing already the Spirit, which is the power by which eter- 
 nal life will come, are the conditions on which the Saints are said to have ever- 
 lasting life; the earnest ef it makes it sure, because the promise is, Komans 8: 
 11, "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, 
 he that raised up Christ from the dead shaM also quicken YOUR MORTAL 
 BODIES;" — that is, they will be quickened by that same spirit. "Even so, 
 'the Son quickeneth whom he will." 
 
 I will now read the twenty-eight and twenty-ninth verses of the fifth chap- 
 "ter of John, and see whether we can discover the two resurrections, or resurrec- 
 tions to glory and condemnation." 
 
 "28. Marvel not at this ; for tlie hour is coming, in the which aU that are in the graves shall 
 hear his voice, (29) and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of 
 life ; [here is one kind of a resurrection] ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection, of 
 ■damnaiion." ' 
 
 Here is another kind; that. Sir, makes two. If I understand the meaning 
 of the English language at all, we have presented to us in this text, the two fol- 
 lowing resurrections, 1st, a resurrection of the Saints, called a resurrection unto 
 life; and 2d, a resurrection of others, called a resurrection of, or unto damna- 
 tion. The first is a resurrection of those who are dead in Christ, who shall at- 
 ■tain unto the resurrection of life. And they who wish to attain to that resur- 
 rection, must be the children of God, heirs of God, for these only are they who 
 ■ will attain unto this resurrection of life; otherwise they will bear part only in 
 the resurrection to condemnation. 
 
 And in support of this. Sir, I turn again to Romans 8:11: 
 
 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised 
 up Christ from the delad, shall also quicken your mortal bodies hy his Spirit that dwelleth ia 
 you." 
 
 Now, Sir, if you wish to know what kind of an argument I will make upon 
 "this, I will inform you. I am not going to argue that this proves that there 
 'shall be a resurrection of the dead ; but that it shows that only those who receive 
 the Spirit of God in this life, that only those whose bodies are alive to God, but 
 dead to sin because of obedience, of whom Paul speaks in the preceding verse, 
 tave the promise that this spirit which raised up Jesus from the dead, should 
 -quicken them by that same spirit that resurrected Jesus. If the same spirit 
 that raised up Jesus dwell in us, it will quicken these mortal bodies; and while it 
 does so, it becomes also the seal of "the adoption of the body" which Paul waited 
 for, and the earnest of our inheritance in a glorified body on a glorified earth. 
 
 And in connection with this, I read in the ninth verse of the eighth chap- 
 ter of Romans, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the 
 •'Spirit of God dwell in you. I understand that this applies also to those who 
 Tiave the Spirit of Christ in this life, and I draw the inference from it, and quote 
 it for the purpose of making the argument, that those who are "dead in Christ," 
 "asleep in Jesus," have the promise of being also raised in Christ; and that 
 those who have the Spirit of Christ, and those only, are entitled to the blessings 
 •of "the^TOC resurrection.".^ 
 
164 FORSGUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 The twenty-third verse I also read in this connection, in which the apostfo 
 uses some very strange argument if he does not refer to the restoration of th& 
 body before referred to : 
 
 "And not only they, but ourselves also, whieh have the first fruits of the Spirit, even 
 "vfe ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adtvption, to-wit, the redem^wn of our 
 body." 
 
 We learn from these evidences, Sir, that those who are dead unto the 
 world, receive the Spirit of Grod unto life, "They are passed from death unto 
 life," are become as you read from John yesterday, lovers of God and the breth- 
 ren. But if the apostle be correct here, though they had received this testi- 
 mony of the spirit, and had passed from death unto life, in a spiritual sense, yef 
 they all groaned within themselves, waiting for the redemption of the body. 
 
 You tell us. Sir, that our body is in heaven. Will you tell us when that 
 body was lost ? Nothing can be redeemed, unless it has once been lost. Tell us 
 how that body in heaven was lost. If we have one there, that can not be re- 
 deemed, for it never was lost; and it is surely something strange if we are to 
 look for, and wait for the "redemption" of something which never has been 
 lost. Strange that it should be said, we are "waiting for the adoption, to-wit, 
 the redemption of our body," when that body never needed redemption. And 
 these who waited, were those who had the first fruits of the Spirit that should 
 reveal the things of God. 
 
 We also turn to Philippians 3 : 9-12 : 
 
 9. "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but. 
 that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. 10. 
 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, [mark it, please, very partioulariy], 
 and the power of his resurrection. [Why distinguish his resurrection from any other resur- 
 rection ?] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of 
 his suffering, being made conformable unto his death. 11. If by any means I might ATTAIN 
 UNTO the resurredicm'cf the dead." 
 
 I see that one other translator has it, "the resurrection of the just," agreeing 
 with the testimony of John. The apostle certainly had two kinds of resurrec- 
 tion in his mind, and whether this be rendered the resurrection of the dead, or 
 the resurrection of the just, it does not ma,terially affect the question. The^ 
 apostle seemed to realize that this resurrection unto which he desired to attain,. 
 was a resurrection to the same state and degree as the resurrection of Jesus. 
 And to attain unto this he was willing to sacrifice everything in the world, to- 
 give up everything else, if hy any means he might attain unto this resurrection. 
 Surely, Sir, even you will concede that there was present in his mind some spe- 
 cial view of the resurrection, some special resurrection to be attained unto, for- 
 which he was willing to endure the sufferings of Christ, that he might be found 
 in him, that he might receive this resurrection in Christ, and in Christ only> 
 Certainly you will not argue that Paul had your views of the resurrection, in the- 
 light of such testimony as this ; he certainly did not believe that the only resur- 
 rection attainable was this which all have, according to your theory, at the time-- 
 of death. 
 
 Another statement, as found in the fifteenth of first Corinthians, twenty- 
 second verse, is: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made 
 alive." The brother understands that this is "even so;" he believes that all 
 will be made alive in Christ. I understand it a little differently to my brother. 
 When the apostle said that all'mankind was to be raised in Christ who died in 
 Adam, he evidently had in his mind the difference between the resurrection 
 that should come freely and unsought unto all mankind, and the resurrection to 
 he attained unto by obedience to God. This is evident from the twenty-fourth 
 chapter of Acts, and fifteenth verse, where he clearly divides the resurrections^ 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINJSrS DISCUSSION. 165 
 
 tand speaks of one as the resurrection of the just, and the other as the resurrec- 
 tion of the unjust. Thus by letting the apostle Paul explain himself, we gather 
 iis true meaning. 
 Time. 
 
 Elder Shinn's reply to Elder Forscutfc's sixth argument : ' 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I shall notice as closely as I can, and as [lengthily as time will admit, my 
 Ibrother's points in his last speech. 
 
 He first calls our attention to the Abrahamic promise, and claims that the 
 Abrahamic promise can not have its fulfillment independent of the resurrection 
 •of the literal body. That simply shows to me, that the brother is sadly mistaken 
 in regard to the nature of the Abrahamic promise. 
 
 The great and glorious truth standing out in the Abrahamic promise, 
 throughout, was of a spiritual character, as well as of an earthly Canaan, an 
 ■earthly possession. There was a spiritual possession, or rather this promise 
 spoken of was to be in Christ, as it is explained by the apostle Paul. This ar- 
 gument or talk of my brother's is a new view of the matter, this far, that it is 
 fulfilled at the resurrection of the dead. I believe I understood you to say it 
 would be fulfilled at the resurrection of the dead, or does he mean at the resur- 
 rection of the Saints. I do not believe this promise will be fulfilled, the one 
 spiritual promise here made to Abraham, the promise of the blessing that was 
 to come upon all kindreds, tribes and languages, untirthe grand Messiah's reign, 
 and until all souls be constituted pure and blessed. That reign of righteousness 
 extends into the future world, over the living and the dead, and Jesus will have 
 to reign until all things are subdued unto him, as I showed from the fifteenth 
 ■chapter of first Corinthians. Then death will be swallowed up in victory, 
 .according to Isaiah, twenty-fifth chapter: "And in this mountain shall the Lord 
 ■of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things," etc. I understand my 
 ^brother to apply it to the resurrection. I understand the apostle Paul makes 
 the same use of the expression, "Death is swallowed up in victory," that Isaiah 
 ■does, in reasoning upon the subject of the resurrection of the dead. It seems to 
 ibe the point all along through my brother's speech, that there may be one, two, 
 or three resurrections of the dead. It may be at stated times, at stages or peri- 
 ods along through the history of the world. Paul speaks of a resurrection of 
 the dead, but he does not seem to know anything about the multiplicity of 
 Jiesurrections my brother has been talking about all along through this discourse. 
 " I will simply refer him to 1 Corinthians 15 : 51-55 : 
 
 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a 
 ■moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the 
 • dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put 
 on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corrnptiou shall 
 have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought 
 to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy 
 ■ stmg? grave, where is thy victory?" 
 
 Now the victory that is to be gained over death, is its utter destruction. 
 The destruction of death, is the universal resurrection of the dead. After the 
 destruction of death, there is no enemy beyond death. I think it woald worry 
 my brother to get in his second death, or fourth death beyond the resurrection. 
 
 Eemember Paul is pointed upon this matter. He places the resurrection 
 at the end of the reign of the Lord, and when he comes at the end of his reign, 
 those that sleep in Christ will God bring with him. I remark that this is 
 ■equivalent to saying that the dead shall have been raised. You will see the 
 
166 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 force of ttat, brother. It is said he shall bring them with him. How could he^ 
 bring them with him, unless they shall have been raised, resurrected ? 
 
 I want to notice my brother's points as closely as I can, however. The 
 Abrahamic promise. That part of it that is literal, pertaining to temporal 
 things, I maintain has been fulfilled. What has all these dead bodies from the^ 
 grave to do with it? Not a single thing. 
 
 He quotes, "A spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have," the lan- 
 guage of Jesus. The brother yesterday made a quotation, "Flesh and blood can 
 not inherit the kingdom of God," and thought that that kingdom had reference 
 to a future state. 
 
 The brother says it does not say flesh and bones can not inherit the king- 
 dom of heaven. Does it not say flesh can not inherit that kingdom, as much as. 
 it says blood, my brother. I repeat it, Does it not say, "Flesh and blood caa 
 not inherit the kingdom of God?" Yet, my brother, in order to sustain his 
 theory, would say that flesh can inherit it, and he brings in electricity and puts- 
 it to work upon the body, and has it soaring from sphere to sphere. He is 
 making progress. My brother is going up to-day. We may be able to go to- 
 gether yet, brother. 
 
 Well, he comes to the body of Christ, and he predicates the resurrection of 
 our material bodies, upon the fact that Christ's material body was raised. I 
 have admitted that the literal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. I be- 
 lieve that, my brother, most heartily. But that he is the exact type of our 
 resurrection, as the brother has tried to make it appear, I do not admit. I 
 showed from the progressive theory that Christ is raised, the dead are raised, it 
 is something that has already taken place. Look here, now. Now as you have, 
 introduced this matter in this light, I proceed to say this, that he did not sea 
 corruption. That is diflFerent from us. We see corruption. Do not our 
 bodies see corruption? Our bodies moulder away and return to their 
 primitive elements, earth. I believe the body, the brother acknowledged 
 yesterday, is something like all matter, changing, and is passing away from 
 one body to another. He did admit it. I called it forth. If he would 
 resurrect that body from the grave, he must bring back all those particles of 
 matter from somewheres. He admitted that it returned to dust every twelve 
 years, and therefore it is being constantly renewed. I remark that it returns to 
 the dust from whence it came, and the spirit returns to God, and is clothed, 
 upon with that house which is from heaven. It is for you to judge who has the. 
 argument. The resurrection of Christ. Not only he did not see corruption^ 
 but he was there such a short time in the grave. Only three days. According 
 to my brother's belief, these spirits are somewheres while the bodies are in the 
 graves. They are somewheres, but where are they? He admitted in his last, 
 speech, that he believed in a spiritual existence as far as I believe it. And I 
 believe it as much as you do, so we are agreed in regard to that matter as sure- 
 as the world stands. I have shown you here, that this type, Christ, is not an» 
 exact type of our resurrection. It cannot be. 
 
 He quotes Christ "is the first born from the dead," "Christ was to be the 
 first fruits that should rise from the dead." 
 
 There was something said in regard to the Book of Mormon. I took down, 
 that. The Book of Mormon, page 553-4, and nearly down to the bottom of the;- 
 55th, teaches what I said it did. It was a book nearly the size of this one, bxtfr. 
 the pages are not the same in that book I notice, as they are on this one. So L 
 have nothing to take back, and he bound himself in his letter to sustain any tenet- 
 taught in that hook ; and if that does not have'some effect in regard to this mat- 
 ter, it is a strange thing to me. 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 16T 
 
 The very place there, the very pages in that book I took down ; and if it 
 does not teach what I said it did, I am unable to understand the English lan- 
 guage. I will never take it back. It tells us that all the Saints, from the time 
 of Adam to the resurrection or crucifixion of Christ. That is the way I under- 
 stand. I might have misunderstood it. 
 
 Elder Fokscutt here said, "I presume you did." 
 
 Elder Shinn resuming. Very likely I did, but I have given you my un- 
 derstanding of it. I have no desire to misrepresent. I might have misunder- 
 Otoodit. 
 
 Thessalonians 4: 13-16. — "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concern- 
 ing them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope. For if 
 we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God 
 bring with him." 
 
 I believe that all sleep in Jesus, and that God will bring all with him at 
 that time. All the dead. For this, we say, is at the end of his reign, when he 
 comes in person here upon the earth. The mediatorial reign of the gospel is 
 ended. "For this we sgy unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are 
 alive, and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which 
 are asleep." Mark you, "Them which are asleep." Wants to know if they 
 have not been dead. I believe the word sleep is equivalent to the word death, 
 in this sense; certainly I do. Does it mean bring their dead bodies when he 
 comes, I want to know whether it was these, or the spirits. It has no reference 
 to the dead bodies. All the dead are in Christ; but are not until the accom- 
 plishment of his mission, at the end of his reign. When he comes in person all 
 the dead are in Christ; they come with him; with the Lord; God brings them 
 with him. How will he bring them with him, if they are still in their graves, 
 my brother ? How in the name of sense is God going to bring them with him, 
 if they are sleeping in their graves ? You will have to go back to your Book of 
 Mormon, and acknowledge that there has been a resurrection to get out of this 
 dilemma. The truth of it is, all mankind will have been raised up at that time, 
 except those who live upon the earth, and they will be changed in a moment, 
 in the twinkling of an eye, as is spoken of by the apostle in the fifteenth of first 
 Corinthians. | 
 
 All the dead bodies shall have been raised up to that time, otherwise they 
 could not be brought with him, and those alive upon the earth are to undergo a 
 change, equivalent to death, and are to be caught up in the clouds to meet the 
 Lord in the air. Let him get in another resurrection if he can. The last 
 enemy, death, has been destroyed by the universal resurrection of the dead. 
 
 John 5 : 21. Romans 8. There are some points here I wish to notice. I 
 wish to notice John 5 : 21, "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quick- 
 eneth them, even so the Son quiekeneth whom he will." I told you this was a 
 moral resurrection, and had its fulfillment in this life during the time of Mes- 
 siah's reign. The coming forth to condemnation or damnation, spoken of in 
 this chapter, had its fulfillment, according to the doctrine of the book of Daniel, 
 in this life, "And many that slept in the dust awoke, some to everlasting life, 
 and some to everlasting shame and contempt. According to Daniel it was to 
 have its fulfillment at the scattering of the holy people. Daniel, twelfth chapter. 
 It has reference to a moral awakening in the resurrection. They that have done 
 good come forth in the resurrection to life, and they that have done evil, unto 
 the resurrection of damnation. Same thought is presented in Matthew 25, be- 
 ginning with the 31st verse. They that have done good have the welcome 
 words presented to them, "Come ye blessed of my Father," etc.; those that were 
 willing to receive truth, light and knowledge, went into the gospel kingdom. 
 
168 FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 Those who were wicked and rebellious, hardened in heart, and unbelieving, come 
 forth to a resurrection of condemnation. Christ judges during his mediatorial 
 reign, as I have shown all along in this debate. This is what I understand in 
 regard to this moral resurrection. 
 
 He refers to Philippians 3 : 10, 11 : 
 
 "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his suf- 
 ferings, being made conformable unto his death ; if by any means I might attain unto the 
 resurrection of the dead." 
 
 Do you think Paul had reference to the obtaining of the resurrection of the* 
 literal body? Is it a fact that we have to work in tlat direction? I thought 
 this eternal life, this future life, was a gift of Grod. I did not know that we 
 could earn it. 
 
 But when is this to be? Under the gospel reign; under the Messiah's 
 reign. This is what the apostle has reference to; for he says, "Not as though I 
 had already attained, either am already perfect ; but II follow after, if that I may 
 apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of C3irist Jesus." 
 
 This was the moral resurrection, my brother. 'Ihe resurrection under the 
 gospel reign : 
 
 "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead and Christ shall give thee light." — 
 Eph. 5:14. 
 
 Ephesians 2 : 5. — "Even when we were dead in sins, hath he quickened us together in 
 Christ." 
 
 Mark you, "He hath quickened us together ia> Christ." All that the 
 brother has tried to prove in regard to the future state of mankind, is useless. 
 Now, right now, we are risen with the Lord. Now hssiving been quickened to- 
 gether with him. This takes the force out of his text in Romans 8 : 11. 
 
 He admitted he did not take that to prove a general resurrection of man- 
 kind. He knows it would not do to apply that to mankind universally. It has 
 reference to a moral resurrection. That is what it has reference to. Not a par- 
 ticle of proof in that in regard to immortality. But he has admitted this, so I 
 don't know as it is necessary for me to notice that any farther. 
 
 Thessalonians 4 I have noticed. 
 
 Romans 8 : 20. The redemption of our body. B maintain it has reference 
 to the body of humanity. 
 
 Colossians 1 : 18. Christ the "first born from the dead." I want to notice 
 that a little. I do not think the brother fully understands me. I take the po- 
 sition that Jesus was not the first raised from the literal dead. If the brother 
 can convince me, let him. I present a passage of scripture to prove my position 
 now. 
 
 2 Timothy 1: 9, 10. — "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior, Jesus 
 Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the- 
 gospel."! 
 
 He has illustrated immortality; brought it into the light. It is true, no 
 matter whether men believe it or disbelieve. But that does not make Jesus 
 create any new truth, as I told you yesterday. Immsrtality was a truth before 
 Jesus came and entered the world. For God declarecF he was the G-od of Abra- 
 ham, and the Grod of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. They were living unto him. 
 Immortality was a truth, and Jesus is only represented as being raised from the 
 dead, that he might have the pre-eminence in all things. Not because he was 
 the first that was raised from the literal dead. Thene are instances in the Old 
 Testament of men being raised from the literal dead ; but I do say to immortal- 
 ity. You can take that for what it is worth, I do nof) stake much on it. This 
 other truth I do. I remark here. Immortality must have been a truth, 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 169 
 
 althougli it miglit not have been illustrated, brought into the light, as Jesus did 
 bring it. 
 
 Acts 24 : 15, "Shall be a resurrection of the de&d." Placfes his argument 
 upon the tense. Now, my brother, at that time it was future; that is, according 
 to my view. It does not destroy my view. It can not. The resurrection was 
 not all past away back there. There shall be a resurrection of the dead, for it 
 continues. That "shall be" did not confine the entire resurrection to the future, 
 because Elias and others away back before Paul had rose from the dead. On 
 the subject, too, of the resurrection of the literal dead, I would like to know 
 tow many resurrections you do believe in. At least two? I do not think you 
 can sustain the proposition from the Bible of two resurrections of the dead. 
 The literal dead I mean; those moral resurrections I do not refer to. I want 
 him now, when he speaks this afternoon, to prove from the Bible, the doctrine 
 of two resurrections of the literal dead. But I affirm here from the Holy Scrip- 
 tures he can not do it. Jesus in his conversations with the Sadducees about 
 the resurrection, Luke 20 : 30, makes no mention of two resurrections. Thess. 
 4 : 16, Romans, Corinthians 15 presented by the apostle Paul, do not give the 
 idea of two resurrections of the literal dead. 
 
 Acts 24, 1 want to notice in this connection. Two resurrections he claims 
 are presented here- That these that shall be raised, shall be raised in two dif- 
 ferent resurrections. 
 
 I claim it is not two resurrections, one of the just, and the other of the un- 
 just. It is distinctly a resurrection of the dead. The just and the unjust are 
 to have part in it. 
 
 The brother may read all that in Eomans, and Corinthians; the ground of 
 the testimony of the Scriptures I introduce here. I do not attempt to forestall 
 my opponent, however. 
 
 I call your attention to Daniel 12: 
 
 "And many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some to everlasting life, and 
 some to everlasting shame and contempt. 
 
 Mark you, '■'■many." 
 
 John 5 : 28, 29. — "Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in 
 their graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the 
 a?esurreotion of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." 
 
 Eev. 20. — "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto 
 'them; and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for 
 the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, netiher his image, neither had re- 
 •ceived his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with 
 iChrist a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again, until the thousand years 
 were finished. This is the first resurrection." 
 
 Now, my brother, I want you to take a position, and in the name of reason 
 and common sense plant your stake and stand there. Take up Daniel 12, John 
 5, Kevelations 20, and plant your stake there, you can take all of them. 
 
 One says, "many;" the other says, "All in the tombs." It says "many in 
 Daniel, and "all in the tombs" in John. He has taken Paul to prove the resur- 
 rection of the literal dead. I want him to take one of these proof texts, and 
 plant himself down, and stand there, if he can. 
 
 "The first resurrection, the second resurrection," etc. As to the language 
 of that matter I will look at that by and by. I know my brother plants himself 
 in regard to this second death. 
 
 Jude 12. — "These are spots in your feasts of Charity, time, dead." 
 
 How much diflFerence is there between twice and second. I read that the 
 Eevelator speaks of second death. Jude speaks of twice dead. Does not that 
 
170 FJDRSOUTT AND SHINN'S DJSCDSSIOJSl.. 
 
 affect us in this life? He can not find any other testimony bearing upon that 
 matter in the book. 
 
 The apostle Paul, who had shunned not to declare the whole counsel of 
 God, had preached the whole truth, said not a single word about the resurrec- 
 tion of the literal dead. If my brother's theory be true, the apostle Paul testifies, 
 falsely; for he says he shunned not to declare the whole counsel of God, yet 
 said not a single word about the literal resurrection of the dead. Let him bring 
 forth his evidence from the book of metaphors, and see how much they are worth. 
 
 (Time.) 
 
 Elder Forscutt's seventh argument. 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I am somewhat sorry that I have to announce this, and the speech of my 
 brother following it, as the last speeches in which arguments of a new, or un- 
 presented nature can be presented by either of us without mutual consent, as 
 there is yet a vast array of evidence, to the point, that I should like to introduce, 
 and which I shall have to introduce very rapidly, which I must crowd a little 
 just now. 
 
 I must, however, just notice one or two objections of my brother that he 
 presented to-day. He has contended in respect to some expressions in regard tO' 
 the resurrection, that they show that the dead are being raised, and that these 
 expressions are in the present tense instead of in the future. Especially does ■ 
 he refer to the twentieth chapter of Luke, and the thirty-seventh verse. The 
 words are these : 
 
 "Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the 
 Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God 
 of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."^ 
 
 il^ All 1 have to say now about this being in the present tense is, that it does 
 not convey to my mind anything like the idea it does to my brother's mind ; be- 
 cause the evidences in other scriptures prove to me clearly, that the time of the 
 resurrection was then considered to be in the far distant future. Beside this, if 
 we are to be governed by the tense in this particular verse, we ought to bear in 
 mind the testimony of Paul to Romans in the fourth chapter and seventeenth 
 verse, where he says : J 
 
 "Before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the',cleaxl, and calleth those things- 
 
 which BE NOT, AS THOUGH THEY WEEE." 
 
 This is right to the point, right on the subject. God, who raiseth the 
 dead, or who has purposed to raise them, or in whose mind the raising of the dead 
 is present, speaks of raising the dead, although it be a thing not yet in being, as 
 though it really was. He speaks of these things not yet in being, as though they 
 really exist. 
 
 One more objection I wish to notice. The brother has referred to it some 
 two or three different times. John 5 : 28, 29. He has repeated, two or three 
 times, that it has reference to the moral death and mx)ral resurrection. When 
 he first made the statement yesterday, I thought surely he was making a mistake. 
 I thought I would not answer then fully, as the brother would surely correct 
 himself in time ; but instead of correcting himself, he has again repeated it. I 
 am forced, therefore, to again notice it; and in doing so, we will look at it in 
 the light which it would present if we were to supply the word "moral" accord- 
 ing to the theory of the brother and see whether or not it will read as in reason 
 we understand it should read. While listening to this reading we must remem- 
 ber that there is a judgment connected with this resurrection; that Jesus is to 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 171 
 
 be the Judge; and that he is raising the dead and bringing them to judgment. 
 
 "28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all who are in the moral' 
 graves shall hear his voice, (29) and shall moroEj/eome forth; they that have done good, 
 morally, unto the moral resurrection of moral life ; and they that have done evil, moraUy, unto- 
 the moral, resurrection of moral damnation." 
 
 Can we understand the view thus presented as representing the thought of 
 the one who uttered it? "Those who have done good," in a moral grave ? The 
 good, morally dead, needing a moral resurrection ! All who have died and are' 
 in their graves, to come literally forth is not unreasonable; but the other view 
 is decidedly so. If we supply the word literal there, it would not destroy the 
 sense. Let us try it : 
 
 "28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the liUraV. 
 graves, shall hear his voice, (29) and shall liieraUy come forth; they that have done good^ 
 literally, unto the literal resurrection of literal hfe ; and they that have done evil, lUeraUy, unto 
 the literal resurrection of literal damnation." 
 
 You perceive the difference in. the rendering, when you supply the word 
 which makes it a mojjil death and resurrection, and the one which makes it a, 
 literal death and resurrection, supplying the words in the same places. 
 
 I submit whether the reading of it which gives with the supplied word the 
 view of my brother, that with the word moral supplied ; or the reading which is-- 
 given without any supply, or with the supplied word, our view, that with the- 
 word literal supplied, gives most accurately the view intended to be conveyed by. 
 the Savior of a resurrection and a following judgment. After a moral resurrec- 
 tion there could be no judgment; after a literal resurrection there may properly 
 be one. 
 
 The brother made an argument from first Corinthians, fifteenth chapter, 
 which I wish to notice also. I leave out the italics to suit my brother's taste,, 
 as he does not like them when they oppose his views. "But some will say, How/ 
 are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" 
 
 Here we notice two distinct questions. Question number one, "How are the 
 dead raised up?" The answer to this question must relate to manner, answer- 
 ing to the adverb "how." The next question is, "With what body do they 
 come ?" The answer to this must pertain to the nature of the body with which 
 they are resurrected, and not to the manner of their resurrection. I think the; 
 brother will submit to this as being correct. 
 
 "But some will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?' 
 Thou fool, that which thou soweat is not quickened except it die. And that which thou 
 so west, thou so west not that body that shall be, hut bare grain; it may chance of wheat or- 
 of some other grain. But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his^ 
 own body." 
 
 The next verse I will not read, as the brother I am sure would not wish me- 
 to do so. 42«>. — So also is the resurrection of the dead," answers to manner. 
 
 The resurrection will be by the power of Christ; some being raised m him^ 
 will be raised in glory, in honor; others raised by him, but not in him, will be- 
 raised to condemnation, in dishonor; for Peter informs us, 2 Epistle 2 : 9, that 
 the Lord "reserves the unjust unto the day of judgment, to be punished," and- 
 they will be raised to "the resurrection of damnation," or as rendered in the 
 Emphatic Diaglott, to judgment. It was to this first resurrection Paul desired, 
 in his letter to the Philippians, to attain, the exanastasin of the dead, literally 
 out of the dead ones, to which he had not attained, but which he was pursuing 
 that he might lay hold of it. Those who attain unto this will be raised in the 
 glory of Christ, and the bodies with which they shall come, will be fashionedi 
 like unto his glorious, risen body. How are they raised up? is the question,, 
 and the answer is, in incorruption. With what bodies do they come? is answer- 
 
172 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 :ed .very beautifully in the forty to the forty-second verses, where we are told of 
 the three distinct glories in which they are raised. The glory of the sun, the 
 moon, and the stars. These questions, "How and with what body, do they 
 come ?" are still further illustrated by the statement concerning the body, that 
 it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption." Yes, Sir, it is the body, 
 I repeat, and only the body that "is sown in corruption, and raised in incorrup- 
 tion; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it 
 is raised a spiritual body." "We think this answers really and truly the ques- 
 tions how and with what body do they come ? 
 
 One thought more. The brother has given us this, that, and the other 
 rendering, and quotes for us considerable from the Greek. I have avoided quo- 
 ting from the Greek all through the course of this discussion until this speech, 
 except in reply to him; but just for the purpose of seeing whether the Greek 
 sustains his view better than it does mine, I will quote from it for the rendering 
 of the answers to these questions, and give the translation as it is furnished in 
 the English interlineary translation of the Diaglott. "But will say some one, 
 How are raised up the dead ones?" Question' one. "0 foolish one, thou what 
 •sowest not is made alive, if not it should die." ^^All erei tis; Pos egeirontai oi 
 neJcroi; poio de somati erehontai; Aphron su o speireis, ou zoopoieitai, ean me 
 apothane." "Some one will say, how are THE DEAD ONES raised up ?" is 
 the precise language, the words placed in such relations are as consonant with 
 the English, and the answer is, "0 foolish one; what thou sowest, if it should 
 inot die, is not made alive" — the exact language being preserved. How now 
 :about Elder Shinn's anastasis, rising out from the old body the elements of the 
 new one, formed during life, as he interprets the word arbitrarily ; that is a ris- 
 ing out of the living to prepare a body against death; but the apostle's view is, 
 & rising of the dead ones. His anastasis signifies the same as his exanastasis in 
 Philippians 3 : 11, rendered properly not merely a rising, but a resurrection out 
 •of, or from among the dead ones. This exanastasis was the same anastasis he - 
 had hope of before Felix, as recorded in Acts, twenty-fourth chapter, which was 
 ■to be a rising or resurrection of the dead ones, both of the just and also of the 
 •unjust. 
 
 I wish to notice once more, but briefly, Elder Shinn's argument on the 
 present tense about the resurrection, by furnishing him a few passages in the 
 :present tense to occupy his thoughts with. In Isaiah 25 : 8 we read, "Death is 
 .-swallowed up in victory" — perhaps he will tell you the tense is prophetic; but 
 I hold him to his tense argument. In 2 Corinthians 6 : 2, we read, "Now is 
 the day of salvation." I hardly expect to hear that the day of salvation ended 
 1815 years ago; but he ought to state so, with his theory." In Hebrews 4 : 3 
 we read of Paul writing, "We which have believed do enter into rest." Will 
 the Elder tell us that the present tense here indicates that Paul and the believ- 
 ers then entered into rest, and that there then was no future rest, as he tells us 
 there will be no future resurrection? Even his favorite, "Now is the judgment 
 ■of this world," will not stand the test of his own logic on the tense of the verb, 
 ■even with his own church writer's explanation, that the judgment referred to 
 was the destruction of Jerusalem, for that did not take place then, nor until 
 about thirty-nine years afterwards. He had better abandon that position as soon 
 as possible. 
 
 When the brethren advised me that my time was out this morning, I was 
 •quoting, or about to quote, from Acts 24 : 14, 15. The brother, I think, in an- 
 swering that, made some very strange admissions. He says,5"my brother is 
 right. When Paul made that declaration, the term 'shall be' was a proper phrase 
 to use." Yes, Sir, and if right then, why not now also? Jesus had been raised 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 173: 
 
 up to glory, or had brought life and immortality into the light," as he quotes it. 
 Jesus then had been raised seven years when this was written. 
 
 Now if all who had died had received their spiritual bodies then, in Paul's- 
 day, instead of writing they "shall be," Paul should have written, "They are 
 being raised now as they die; and have been raised from the time of Adam 
 down till now; for from the first the brother has urged the thought, at least he 
 did so yesterday, strongly, and I do not know but he repeated it this morning, 
 that the resurrection had been progressing from the beginning. 
 
 _ But, Sir, if the resurrection had been progressing from the beginning,' and 
 Christ was the first fruits only in the sense of his having the pre-eminence, what- 
 a pity that you were not there to prevent him from making such a mistake then I 
 Or if Christ was not the ^^ first fruits" "the first horn," what a pity you were not 
 there to correct the mistake when made, right at that time. Paul tells us that 
 he was "the first born of every creature," "the first born from the dead," and 
 that of him the prophets bore witness that he should be the first that should 
 rise from the dead." If you are disposed to believe the inspired apostle Paul, 
 this is strong testimony indeed. The fact that some were raised from the dead' 
 temporarily, or raised into the life that now is, does not aflFect the subject of the: 
 resurrection to the life that shall be. 
 
 I will now present the testimony found in the twentieth chapter of Luke, 
 thirty-fifth and thirty-sixth verses, the testimony of Jesus : 
 
 "35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrec- 
 tion from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: (36) neither can they die any 
 more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of 
 the resurrection." 
 
 "They are the children of God." What do you understand by this? First, 
 these are certainly the ones that shall attain unto the first resurrection. The 
 brother tells us about a general rising; and gives the idea of a universal resur- 
 rection in Christ. If his position be correct, I wish to know of what value a 
 sentence like this one in the Bible is, "They which shall be accounted worthy" 
 contradistinguishing this class from all other classes as "they which shall be 
 accounted worthy V — "accounted worthy!" Why such a phrase as this, if, as he 
 tells us, all are accounted worthy. It is a useless one if there be no distinction,, 
 the one from the other. Paul desired this resurrection; all the apostles and. 
 holy men of old valued this statement, "They that shall be accounted worthy." 
 It was a talisman, encouraging them to attain to that resurrection, to that world, 
 where they neither marry nor are given in marriage, where they can die no- 
 more. 
 
 The brother said something about the second death. There is no second 
 death nor first death in our proposition. That relates to the resurrection of the 
 body, but I will tell you what I think about it as here indicated. Jesus here 
 describes a class who shall be accounted worthy to obtain a resurrection, and 
 who'shall not die any more; and I think it not unreasonable from this to infer 
 that there will be some who are not worthy to obtain this resurrection, who may 
 die again. 
 
 The brother, in speaking of the fact that I had produced the example of 
 one who was raised to a resurrection into this mortal state, was very anxious to- 
 have me prove that it was a resurrection to immortality. I replied that I had 
 not said that that was a resurrection to immortality; yet I believed there was to. 
 be such a resurrection, but had not yet made my argument upon it. 
 
 Here the statement is made by Jesus, that "they that are accounted worthy 
 to obtain that world, and the resurrection [that resurrection] from the dead, * 
 * * shall not die any more." Does not this expression justify the idea that 
 
174 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 ■some ■will not attain to this resurrection, who will die again, and these will not be 
 raised to immortality. If this be true, how will the brother sustain the point, 
 4hat the second death has reference only to this life? 
 
 I now call your attention, in connection with this, to Matthew 22 : 30 : 
 
 "For in tlie resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the 
 =angels of God in heaven." 
 
 In connection with these two quotations, I call your attention to Mark 
 12:25: 
 
 "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage ; but 
 are as the angels which are in heaven." 
 
 The same thought presented, and in almost the same words. I have heard 
 ^the argument adduced, that of all these three testimonies in regard to the resur- 
 Teotion of the dead, Luke is the only one who says anything about there being 
 ■•worthiness attached to a promise ooncerniiig the resurrection. I do not know 
 •what view my brother takes. Were there any one of the evangelists that wrote 
 all the words of Jesus ? I think not. But if it be my brother's moral resur- 
 rection, or spiritual conversion, here referred to, I would like him to tell us 
 whether the morally resurrected do not marry. 
 
 The brother asks whether or not eternal life can be earned. "I always 
 "thought it was a gift of God," says he. So I, too, had always thought. It is a 
 gift, brother, but it is one which, with the blessings belonging to it, are to be 
 -obtained by an observance of the terms and conditions upon which they are 
 promised, and in this way only. God has placed these blessings before us, and 
 'promised to give them upon certain conditions; and we, in order to obtain them, 
 must observe those conditions, or in other words keep the commandments of 
 •God. It is a gift offered unto us ; but we are expected to reach out our hands 
 ^nd take it when it is offered, by an observance of God's law. 
 
 I think I will again notice the "Emphatic Diaglott." This time just to see 
 whether the idea of the brother's, that the Greek is stronger testimony 
 against us than the common version of the Bible on Luke, twentieth chapter, is 
 ■correct. The "improved" rendering is, "B'at those deemed worthy to obtain 
 •that age, and that resurrection from the dead." Why distinguish by the word 
 ihat? — "that age;" "that resurrection ?" Are not these contradistinctive from 
 -another resurrection, from another age? If not, what mean the words here, 
 "Those who are deemed worthy to obtain that age and that resurrection from the 
 ■dead?" 
 
 " Oi de Icataxiothentes tou ainoas eJceinou tuchein, Tcai tes anastq^eos tes ekioute ekgamiskoniai 
 'vute gar apothanein eti dunardai isaggeloi gar eisi kai uioi eisi tou tlieou, tes anastaseos vioi ontes." 
 
 The translation literally is, placed according to our manner of speech: 
 
 "But those having been aocounted worthy of the age that is to obtain, and of thai resur- 
 rection out of (or from among) the dead ones, neither marry nor are given in marriage : nor are 
 ■able to die any more, for they are like angels, and Ihey are ihb sons OI' god, leing sons of the 
 
 SESITBEBOTION." 
 
 It is true that all will be resurrected ; but, as the apostle Paul tells us, 
 every man in his own order;" — only the sons of God will attain to the glory of 
 •that age, that resurrection. 
 
 The brother referred to what I said about electricity. My object in speak- 
 ing about that was simply this. I regard it not as a primal force of nature ; but 
 •as a force in nature, as one of the secondary forces through which the control- 
 ling force, the Spirit of God, operates on matter. Our resurrection bodies will 
 he material, and the world they occupy a material world. In that world all the 
 "forces of nature" will exist as now, but in different, though not dissimilar 
 iforms. The most powerful agent of this controlling force man has yet discover- 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 175 
 
 •ed, is electricity; and in bringing it to your notice, my design was to indicate 
 that however great its powers, those of the Spirit of God are so immeasurably 
 greater, that it is but one of the agents of this Spirit. And as the brother 
 ■doubts the possibiUti/ of a resurrection, I wished him to think it possible, as the 
 resultant of this Spirit power, so immeasurably greater than the greatest power 
 known in nature. 
 
 One argument that I heard urged by one speaker concerning the testimony 
 ■we have read this morning from Luke is, that had it been of a very important 
 character, then either Matthew or Mark would have presented it to us. The 
 brother has presented the same kind and quality of an argument, in the state- 
 ment which he has made to us concerning the testimony of the apostle Paul. 
 Because Paul said to the Ephesian brethren who visited him at Miletus, "For I 
 have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God," Acts 20 : 27, the 
 brother argues to the effect, that if a thing can not be proven by the apostle 
 Paul, it can not be proven at all. 
 
 Now we know that there are many things presented by some of the other 
 apostles, that are not mentioned by the apostle Paul. If he did declare all that 
 needs to be declared; if not one word more of the Bible needs to be declared 
 except the verbal testimony of the apostle Paul to the Ephesians, for he did not 
 write his epistle to them even till four years afterwards, if that contains all wis- 
 dom, all knowledge, all truth, all that is ever to be learned of God, some other 
 questions ought to be asked and answered by the brother, such as, — Are his 
 epistles to be rejected? Are even all his words, all his writings combined, and 
 all his instructions by writing and by word of mouth to others to be rejected ? 
 The apostle Paul went among the Ephesians, and preached to them; but, un- 
 fortunately for our friend's position, notwithstanding he declared to them all the 
 counsel of God, there is not one word of those verbally-given counsels that is left 
 to us. Paul did declare everything that was necessary to be known by them as 
 the counsel of God to them, no doubt; but there are many things which he must 
 have presented to them and in his two years' preaching elsewhere, and all during 
 his thirty-one years of preaching, that are not to be found in his writings. Paul 
 did teach all that was necessary to be taught by him. He did declare all the 
 counsel of God, the'brother is right about this, that is all that they needed then 
 to know of the counsel of God, all he had then to say to them ; but to confine 
 ourselves to what he has said to the Ephesians, or to any one, or all the church- 
 es, is quite unwarranted. 
 
 The brother in his last speech says he wants me to state definitely my posi- 
 tion. I really wonder what he wants me to say. That I have, in a great many 
 respects, stated whether or not I believe the body will be raised, which is the 
 topic now under consideration, 1 believe you will all bear witness. That the 
 dead are to be raised, I have proven; and I submit whether I have not, 
 by the explanation which I gave of the proposition, and the evidences I gave, in 
 stating my position, of its truth, substantiated clearly the proposition itself, 
 "Resolved that the Bible teaches the literal resurrection of the body from the 
 grave." 
 
 The brother wishes me to be definite still farther, and tell him how many 
 resurrections there are to be. Well, brother, I can not tell you. God has not 
 told us; and I dare not be so positive upon things which are not revealed as I 
 would have to be to tell you that. What God has said I subscribe to; but that 
 which he has not taught I can not teach to you. 
 
 The Bible teaches very distinctly, Matthew 27 : 52 and 53_, that after Jesus 
 arose from the dead, the graves were opened ; it does not call it a resurrection, 
 — but that which amounts to the same thing, — the graves were opened, and 
 
176 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 many of the Saints who slept awoke, and came out of their graves. This does 
 not teach the idea of a spiritual resurrection, the theory of the resurrection you 
 advocate, but it declares that the graves were opened, and they came out of them. 
 What came out, my brother, their real or spiritual body ? 
 
 When Jesus ascended on high it was with 7m real body, raised from the 
 dead, and quickened by the power of God. He left on record exhortations and 
 entreaties, we have them on record now, to his followers, promising them that if 
 they would heed them, that they should dwell with him. I do not want a resur- 
 rection any grander than being raised to immortality and eternal life, one in the 
 likeness of the resurrection of Jesus, and this is promised. There is no other I 
 wish but that; that and that only will satisfy me. 
 
 John 5 : 28, 29, was read in connection with Daniel 12 : 2. Before I quote 
 these I wish to say that Luke 20 : 35 and 36, Matthew 22 : 30, and Mark 12 : 
 25 are parallel passages, or texts. Mr. Home lays down the rule, "Where par- 
 allel passages present themselves, the clearer and more copious place must be 
 selected to illustrate one that is more briefly and obscurely expressed." Luke 
 alone has the clause making worth a condition to the obtaining of this resurrec- 
 tion; hence I use Luke's statement to explain the others by. Had not Jesus 
 intended to teach that only those who are accounted worthy shall attain to that 
 resurrection, called elsewhere "the resurrection of the just," "the first resurrec- 
 tion," the "resurrection unto life," he would not have designated them as testi- 
 fied to by Luke. To accept any other view, is to make Jesus a trifler, and Luke 
 an unfaithful, an untruthful historian. These are the first fruits unto Christ, 
 and they only who are followers of Jesus, will attain to that resurrection, and 
 the glory thereof. 
 
 We will now quote the passage referred to. John, fifth chapter : 
 
 "28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves 
 shall hear his voice, (29) and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection, 
 of life; and they that have dpne evil, unto the resurrection of damruatwn" 
 
 Two distinct resurrections are here pointed out, whatever my brother may 
 say to the contrary. A resurrection to life, and a resurrection to condemnation. 
 I repeat it, "They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they 
 that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." The definite article 
 "the" goes before one resurrection the same as the other. Two distinct positions 
 are occupied; two distinct afiairs are to transpire; two distinct effects are to 
 result therefrom. 
 
 I now quote Daniel 12:2: 
 
 "And many of th6m that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting 
 life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." 
 
 Perhaps the brother will ask me to locate this resurrection; but God has 
 not told me. I think there is nothing in the word of God that would justify 
 anything more than an opinion in regard to this passage. There is a part of 
 the testimony of Daniel, that would seem to justify the thought, that it might 
 have taken place when Jesus arose; but the other part does not, so I can merely 
 give my opinion; my view, and as that view is not the doctrine or view of the 
 Church I am now representing, I do not wish it reported as such; you will 
 recollect that this is only my view, that this resurrection wiU take place when 
 Jesus comes again to reign personally. This view I present at my own expense. 
 
 The brother read again from 1 Thessalonians 4:16: 
 
 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the 
 archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead m Christ shall r]s& fvrst." 
 
 It is wonderful that,the apostle should say, "The dead in Christ shall rise 
 first," if there be none to rise first. Why should he declare that there is to be 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 177 
 
 a first rising or resurrection, if there is to be no second one ? We might as well 
 boldly strike this word "first" out, and have nothing to do with it. 
 
 "The dead in Christ" are those who have followed Christ in the regenera- 
 tion ; and these are to have the preference, a special blessing. These, — when- 
 ever they die, — these fall asleep in Jesus, and they will be raised. Sir, when he 
 comes to reign, and they will reign with him too. 
 
 Elder Forscutt yielded at the call of "Time." 
 
 Elder Shinn's reply to Elder Forscutt's seventh argument is as follows: 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I wish to notice first, my brother's criticism on John, fifth chapter. He 
 read it, putting in the word moral for me, because, I presume, I believe it to 
 teach a moral resurrection. "For the Father judgeth no man." I afiirm again, 
 it is a moral resurrection. Now we will prove it from the word itself: "For the 
 Father judgeth no man; but hath committed all judgment unto the Son." — 
 John 5 : 22. There was a time when the Father judged the world himself; 
 judged the nations "irPthe land of their nativity, in the place where they were 
 created." By and by all power is given to Jesus "in heaven and on earth." 
 He declares that he judgeth in the earth. When he is first established in his 
 kingdom he comes to be judge of the living and of the dead. Now, under this 
 reign, at the beginning of this reign, eighteen hundred years ago, when Jesus is 
 judge of the world, in his reign he says: 
 
 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son. That 
 all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the 
 Son, honoreth not the Father which hath sent him. Terily, verily, I say unto you, he that 
 lieareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come 
 into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." 
 
 Is that literal? Is it not moral? Keep this in your minds. "Verily, 
 verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is," at the establishment of 
 Jesus' reign, over eighteen hundred years ago, "when the dead shall hear the 
 voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live." That glorious work 
 has been going on ever since Jesus became j udge in his kingdom. "For as the 
 Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself" 
 Remember all power in heaven and in earth is given unto the Son, "And hath 
 given him authority to execute judgment," retribution also, because he is the 
 Son of man. "Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in the which all that 
 are in the graves," the graves, graves of moral pollution, "shall hear his voice 
 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; 
 and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation," or damna- 
 tion. This is all to take place under the mediatorial reign of the Messiah, 
 remember that. It is to have its fulfillment under the reign of the Messiah, 
 who is to reign until all things are subdued, till all mankind are filled full of 
 this moral life; and when all have received this moral life, then he is to come 
 personally at the end of his reign, when he delivers up the kingdom to Grod the 
 Father, and ceases to be judge, ceases to reign. He has accomplished the object 
 of his mission. It is therefore a moral resurrection, because it is under the reign 
 of the Messiah. My brother never will be able to show it has its fulfillment at 
 any other time. He cannot drive me from the position I have taken upon this 
 proposition, and which I have taken all along, that Jesus was to reign until he 
 delivers up the kingdom to God the Father, and that then he ceases to be judge. 
 
 He refers to Acts 24: 15. The argument is upon the tense, I believe. 
 Paul says there shall be a resurrection. The resurrection was future at that 
 
178 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 time. It was to be future. It was not all past. A portion of it was to be in 
 the future. This is the understanding I have of the argument on "shall be." 
 
 Luke 20 : 35-38. I see he claims the dead will be raised at the coming of 
 Christ. My brother misunderstands here. He thinks the dead will all be 
 raised at that special time. I showed you this morning, that the true sense of 
 it was that they should all have been raised. The declaration is, "All that sleep 
 in Jesus will God bring with him." How could he bring them with him, un- 
 less they had been raised from the dead. I proved to a demonstration that the 
 dead shall have been raised, when the Messiah comes personally at the end of 
 his mediatorial reign. Luke 20 : 35. 
 
 The brother has called your attention to the reading of the Greek transla- 
 tion, "Those who are deemed worthy to obtain that age," mark you, my brother, 
 the resurrection is denominated an age, the future life of men, that period be- 
 yond this life is denominated an age. "Those who are deemed worthy to obtain 
 that age," future life. How many will be permitted to obtain that age ? My 
 brother being judge, all will be. Paul being the judge, all mankind will be per- 
 mitted to come in to the future spiritual world; "and that resurrection from the 
 dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage." They do not marry nor are 
 given in marriage, in the spiritual world, the resurrection age, "for they can die 
 no more, because they are like angels, sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 
 
 "Now that the dead are raised," mark you, the resurrection is in the pres- 
 ent tense, "even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God 
 of Abraham, and the G(Jd of Jacob ; for he is not a God of the dead, but of the 
 living; for to him all are alive. Stronger, brother, if possible, from the Greek 
 than from King James' translation. 
 
 "All are alive." This proves positively that all the dead are alive. To 
 die is to only shuffle off this old mortal body, and be clothed upon with a spirit- 
 ual body, with that house which is from heaven. But he speaks of Paul, about 
 the tense, and the resurrection from the dead. That was not a resurrection to 
 immortality. Philippians 3 : 10-12. My friends I will read it to you. I claim 
 it is a moral resurrection. Now we will see: "That I may know him and the 
 fellowship of his sufferings," he is speaking of Christ, "being made conformable 
 unto his death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the 
 dead. Not" as though I had already attained, neither were already perfect," 
 showing positively it is a moral resurrection he is speaking of here, "but I fol- 
 low after, that I may apprehend that for which I am apprehended." I shall 
 present this in my recapitulation, and some other passages with it. 
 
 [Matthew 20, and Mark, bearing upon the subject which he has read from 
 the Diaglott. We will let that pass. Matthew 27 : 52, 53. I wish to look at 
 that. It is new scripture, as far as this discussion is concerned. At the time 
 of the crucifixion of the Savior, "And the graves were opened, and many bodies 
 of the Saints arose," mark you, "many bodies of the Saints which slept arose, 
 and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, 
 and appeared unto many." Now, my brother, you notice here, that it is but a 
 partial resurrection after all, for the graves here is tombs. You do not know 
 how many bodies of the Saints arose. If it is a partial resurrection, how can 
 you prove it a resurrection to immortality? How do you know but what they 
 died again ? You will never be able to prove it a resurrection to immortality. 
 
 If it was a literal resurrection at all, then they may have died again. If it 
 was a resurrection of the literal bodies, it was only a partial one. But you must 
 prove it a resurrection of the literal body. This may have reference to a great 
 many, to bodies, as the passage I have read. It may be divided and sub-divided 
 into bodies of that kind. It may not be literal bodies after all. "And came 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 179 
 
 out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appear- 
 ed unto many/^ I notice the opinions of a good many learned men upon that 
 passage of Scripture, and they do not place very much confidence in its being 
 right genuine, — 
 
 Elder Forscutt to Elder Shinn. "Will you give the names of some of those 
 learned men ?" 
 
 Elder Shinn to Elder Forscutt. "I do not care to do so just now." 
 
 Elder Forscutt again. "I ask if you could, by courtesy." 
 
 Elder Shinn in reply.- Yes, Sir, I will." 
 
 Argument resumed. John 5 I shall not notice again at this time; perhaps 
 it may not be as well to. I want to notice something in regard to that in 
 Daniel, that the brother called your attention to again. Daniel 12 : 
 
 "And many that sleep in the dust of the earlli shall awake; some to everlasting life, and 
 some to everlasting shame and contempt." 
 
 • John 5 says, all that are in their graves or tombs. My brother has ac- 
 knowledged that the graves here means tombs, at least so I understood him. 
 Then I consider this is a partial resurrection. Daniel says, "Many of them that 
 sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to 
 everlasting shame and contempt. 
 
 This is parallel with John 5, where it is said, "jMarvol not at this; for the 
 hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall come forth, shall 
 hear his voice, and shall come forth." 
 
 In one instance it is the "dust of the earth," and in the other it is "the 
 graves." Graves of moral pollution, it does not mean literal graves. I have no 
 idea it does. It means moral graves, and a moral resurrection therefrom. 
 
 Daniel 12 : 1-6. We pass on after it speaks of this resurrection, to the 
 sixth verse, where a question is asked, "How long shall it be to the end of these 
 wonders?" Mark you, it is a parallel to John 5, whether my brother believes it 
 or not. This fixes it forever as a matter of the past. 
 
 Well, my brother, I have just one question to ask in conclusion. In your 
 last speech you have claimed that there was a resurrection of many of the Saints 
 to immortality, in connection with the crucifixion of Christ. Now, if these 
 were resurrected in their bodies, and the earth is heaven, where are those bodies 
 now? 
 
 I have tried to follow my brother so closely in this discussion, and I have 
 been as honorable and fair as I know how to be, that I have failed to get in 
 many of my counter arguments. I present now, as my fifth counter argument, 
 the resurrection of the literal body, is positively contradicted. First Corinthi- 
 ans, fifteenth chapter. The resurrection is compared to the sowing of grain, 
 Man's spirit represents the germ, and the body represents the body of the grain 
 that dies. "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall 
 be." There is the point I want to notice. "Thou sowest not that body that 
 shall he, God giveth it a body as it hath pleaseth him, and to every seed its own 
 body." 50t). — "Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God ; neither 
 doth corruption inherit incorruption." These bodies are earthy, they are cor- 
 ruptible. They are flesh and bones and blood and muscle, etc., they are corrupt- 
 ible, and the declaration is, "flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of 
 God." This pertains to the life beyond this life, the brother says. He talks 
 about the body being raised, and having electricity infused into it or something 
 else, but here we learn that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." 
 Flesh aracZ blood, mark you, brother. And again, 12:19, "Now if Christ be 
 preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no 
 resurrection of the dead?" Mark it, now. "But if there be no resurrection of 
 
a^O FORSOUTT AND SHINJSf'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 the dead, then is Christ not raised." See how strong it is here. The resurrec- 
 tion of the dead up to that time, predicated upon the fact that Christ himself 
 tad been raised. All the dead are raised. "And if Christ be not risen, then is 
 our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." Mark it, now. If there is no 
 resurrection of Christ, there is no future life. If there is no future life, Christ 
 is -not raised, and all mankind will have no resurrection. But the argument is 
 clear and conclusive, that all are raised, and proves progressive resurrection. 
 "For if the dead rise not, then is Christ not raised; and if Christ be not raised, 
 your faith is vain ; ye are yet in your sins." Now, my argument has been all 
 along that "there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." The point 
 is this. There is a spiritual body, and we will be clothed upon with that spirit- 
 ual body. When we lay off this body, that spiritual body, represented by Paul 
 as being a body from heaven, which is incorruptible, will clothe us. That we 
 are correct in this, is seen from Eeclesiastes 12 : Y, "Then shall the dust return 
 to the earth as it was;" that is, this body, this corruptible. "And the spirit," 
 the true man, the living entity, "shall return to G-od who gave it," clothed upon 
 with a spiritual body, not the animal body. • "Thou sowest not that body that 
 shall be," but it is a spiriual body. 
 In this connection Luke 20 : 37 : 
 
 "Now that the dead are raised, even Moseg showed at the bush, when he calleth the 
 Lord the God of Abraham, and the G-od of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is npt a God 
 of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." 
 
 I will remark here, that the analogy used by Paul in the fifteenth chapter 
 of first Corinthians, is against my brother's theory of the resurrection of the 
 literal body. He demonstrates the true theory clearly and conclusively, from 
 the sowing of the grain. Grain is sown when it is alive. We are in the sown 
 state now. That within the grain, answers to that within us which is raised in 
 the resurrection. The old body, the body sown drops off, and returns to its 
 primitive elements; the same as my brother said, this earthly body dies, refer- 
 ring to Eeclesiastes 12. It passes off, and helps to form other bodies. Let him 
 bring back all these particles if he can, from all parts of the world. The body 
 is changing, and once in seven years we have a new body. My brother says 
 from five to twelve years. Then if he lived to be ninety-six years of age, he 
 would have at least eight bodies; and all the time you have been living here, 
 effete matter has been passing off continually from this body, and going unto 
 other bodies, and finally at death the body is dropped off. The question is, my 
 brother, if the literal animal body is to be raised, now in the name of heaven 
 tell us which of these bodies you will take up again. Will it be the last one? 
 or will it be the first one? I want to know which it will be. Will it be the 
 first, the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth, the seventh, or the 
 eighth ? 
 
 If you are going to have this animal body raised, it must be one of these. 
 I remark that we must have some other body in the resurrection. Science and 
 reason are against the resurrection of the literal body. 
 
 The old body returns to the dust, to its primitive elements, but the living, 
 spirit entity, the immortal part of man, is the only part that returns to Grod, who 
 gave it. It is the spiritual man, and that, only, that returns to God; but this 
 earthly body goes down to the earth where it belongs. 
 
 Many, many, have been made to stumble, because they could not believe 
 in a resurrection of the literal body; because it was contrary to reason. Why, 
 then, try to provoke the world into infidelity? The days have come, Sir, when 
 the Bible is supposed to be at least by some men, in harmony with reason. God 
 would certainly never give an unreasonable revelation. Men are borne from one 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 1811 
 
 place to another. Some are eaten by cannibals; tbe particles of their bodies 
 scattered to the four winds of heaven. One body is passing into another body. 
 The fishes eat a portion of the bodies, and they in turn are eaten up by other 
 bodies, etc. Sq one hundred different bodies may have the same particles of 
 matter in their composition. It is unreasonable to suppose, that all these will 
 be gathered together again. There is no necessity for it. Identity does noS- 
 require it, although my brother's mother would know him, who knew him seve- 
 ral years ago. Perhaps she would recognize his voice, and would not have to- 
 look at his body. Something in regard to this matter. I know that for iden- 
 tity, this body is not required. My brother told you that we wear out the body 
 in from five to twelve years. The theory is the same, whether twelve or seven. 
 If our identity can be preserved in this life, when we may have from ten to- 
 twelve different bodies, it will not be required for our identity in the future- 
 world. "God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own 
 body. I want it understood that my objections are to the resurrection of the 
 literal animal body. 
 
 This kind of a resurrection is positively contradicted by the Bible, by 
 analogy, by science, b;f reason, and finally I object to it because it is utterly im- 
 possible. But the brother may say, that which is impossible with men is pos- 
 sible with God. I admit, that that which is impossible with men may be pos- 
 sible with God. That does not destroy the argument I presented in this connec- 
 tion. I do not believe that God has ever promised that he will bring up this 
 old body. I snppose if a person should be lame, without a limb, that he would 
 be raised up in this condition in the resurrection. 
 
 My brother has got to prove that the Bible teaches that the literal animal 
 body will be resurrected from the grave. 
 
 Elder Forscutt interposed. "I beg to correct you, brother. That is not 
 the proposition; please read the proposition." 
 
 Elder Shinn reading. "The Bible teaches a literal resurrection of the body 
 from the grave." 
 
 Elder Forscutt. "Do you find 'animal body' there?" 
 
 Elder Shinn- "It is just the same thing." 
 
 Elder Forscutt. "That is your interpretation." 
 
 Elder Shinn. "It is Webster's interpretation. He says the word literal 
 means real, that which is not figurative. In that case it means animal, of course." 
 
 The moderator here called "Time." 
 
 It was announced to the audience that Elders Forscutt and Shinn had 
 agreed that either speaker should be allowed to introduce new matter in his last 
 speech on the proposition now under consideration; when Mr. Forscutt arose 
 and entered upon his eighth and closing argument upon the second proposition: 
 
 Messrs. Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I have been both pleased and amused at the efforts made by our brother 
 during his last speech. It does seem to me, that so far as his mediatorial reign 
 theory is concerned, it is the one insisted on from first to last, notwithstanding 
 it has been answered several times during the discussion; but I purpose to say 
 nothing about this, further, now. 
 
 On the question of moral pollution, as the grave, I wish you to notice the 
 brother's argument. - He tells us, these graves are graves of sin and moral pol- 
 lution. In that case it does, in the light of the Savior's argument on the death 
 and resurrection of the body, it does seem strange that a man is accounted dead 
 
182 FORSGUTT AND SIIINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 and buried, while still alive; true, we are to understand it hypothetically ; but 
 the difficulty is this, and our brother must remove this difficulty out of the way 
 ■before we can consistently give to these utterances a metaphorical meaning, ^'■AU 
 who are in the graves are to come forth," aome, shall come forth to life, and others 
 ■ to condemnation. What! brother, come forth from moral impurity to damna- 
 tion? To remain in pollution and be condemned, would be reasonable; but to 
 come from it, and yet be condemned, is monstrous. And again, "they that have 
 done good" to come forth from moral pollution ! It is too absurd a proposition 
 to come from a heathen, and shall I consent that the Son of God be charged 
 with such folly ? God forbid ! 
 
 As to the question which I have answered once, tliat the body changes 
 once in seven years, I merely again deny the proposition, and again repeat that 
 the latest discoveries of science do not justify it. Infidels, philosophers, first 
 announced it; and then others took it up, and adopted it. It is not an estab- 
 lished principle in physiology; it is rather a doctrine than a demonstrated scien- 
 tific fact, that the body ever changes in its entirety. Those who have argued 
 on that point, have done so in opposition to Christianity. It was first adopted 
 in the French school of infidels, and was by them propagated, until it has come 
 to be received even by some ministers, who are infidels on the doctrine of the 
 resurrection. There is nothing in the history of man that justifies the idea. 
 That the incorporation of all the material which has formed a part of the earthly 
 body, is impracticable, I do not deny. That the renewal of the body in some 
 respects, every few years, or of a portion of it, would, if all this material had to 
 be restored in the resurrection, render the resurrected body a cumbrous vehicle 
 for the spirit to occupy and use, I am fully aware. That the receiving back all 
 that has ever existed in the corporeal body, and that only forming the resurrect- 
 ed body, would involve great and fearful-to-contemplate diiferences in size and 
 volume, in the resurrected body, I willingly concede. But does the doctrine of 
 the resurrection of the body necessarily involve the restoration of every particle 
 that has ever entered into its combination? I see no necessity for it whatever, 
 either in the statements of Scripture, or in the philosophy of the church I 
 represent in respect to those statements on this subject. I have already intimat- 
 ed that the inheritance of the Saints will be this earth in a purified, and if you 
 will allow me the term, a rarified state; if then the new earth shall part with 
 its grosser forms, and only the primal elements and their chemical properties, 
 such as carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, etc , be incorporated in the new form of the 
 renewed earth, why not this be the case also with the new body, the renewed or 
 resiirrected body of man, as well as of the earth; and yet his new body partake 
 of the elements of the old one, as does the grain of its seed? Man is now assimi- 
 lated with the earth, his present home ; in his resurrected state, he will also be 
 assimilated with the redeemed earth, his new home. Harmony and adaptability 
 are everywhere apparent in the appointments of the All-wise God. We may 
 not know the modus operandi by which the resurrection will be accomplished; 
 but the doctrine is taught in the word of God, and exemplified there sufficiently 
 to justify our faith, and unbelievers only, infidels only, will disbelieve that word, 
 and they are only infidels who try to throw away and destroy the word of God, 
 which plainly and positively teaches that there shall be a resurrection of the 
 body. Jesus declared, positively declared, that there would be a resurrection of 
 both the just and the unjust; and though the self-wise and vain philosopher be 
 an infidel to his theory, yet, notwithstanding this, God will be proven right yet, 
 and the resurrection will take place. 
 
 The brother asks the question whether, if the Saints were raised to immor- 
 tality in the day when Jesus was raised, and this earth is to be heaven, where 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 183 
 
 •did they go to? All, Sir, that I read in the word of God on this subject, I be- 
 lieve; it does not matter what is there said about it, I believp it; and I read in 
 that word that others were translated in the body, taken up to the place where 
 God dwells. I believe, Sir, that the same God who could provide a resting place 
 for those translated, could also provide one for those who were resurrected when 
 Jesus his Son was raised, and yet believe too, the promise of Jesus, that "The 
 meek' shall inhert the earth." 
 
 The brother repeats to us that the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians 
 teaches a progressive resurrection. I find nothing in it that justifies the idea 
 that the resurrection is progressive; nothing at all. If the brother's theory be 
 true, there would be no necessity for the raising of Christ at all. For he tells 
 us that all are raised and clothed upon with a spiritual body, immediately after 
 ■death. If that be true, Sir, Paul is wrong where he says, "i/" Ch-ist he not 
 raised, your faith is vain ; ye are yet in your sins." 
 
 But it does not matter whether Christ was raised or not, if your theory be 
 true; it is immaterial about Christ, altogether immaterial. If men are raised, 
 and have been ever since the creation, as soon as they die, the resurrection does 
 not depend on his po#er; Christ was only a partaker in the resurrection, and 
 •not its author and first fruits. The brother gives to us as the reason why we 
 are raised and clothed upon with a spiritual body as soon as we die, that this is 
 in accordance with a spiritual law in existence long before Christ. Will the 
 brother point us to that law, or quote it for us. 
 
 I believe that our all depends upon Christ. I do not want any other resur- 
 rection than the one God's word promises to me. God's word tells us that if 
 Christ be not raised, we are dead, lost, perished, and I believe all Ms word. 
 The resurrection of the dead depended upon him, and he holds the keys thereof, 
 as the first-born from the dead. 
 
 I now notice as briefly as I can, a number of scriptural evidences, by which 
 I prove that the righteous will be raised first to glory; the wicked afterward to 
 condemnation. 
 
 I. THE aESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS WILL BE THE EIRST RESURRECTION. 
 
 1 Theas. 4: 16. — "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the 
 voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise pikst." 
 
 Rev. 20 : 4-6. — And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given 
 unto them: and I saw the souls, of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for 
 the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had 
 received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands ; and they lived and reigned with Christ 
 ■a thousand years. 5. But the best op the dead lived iwt again urdU the thousand years were 
 ■finished. This is the eiest BEStfRKEOTiON." 
 
 The brother asks me to make an argument upon my view in regard to the 
 ■times of the resurrection. Here is the testimony, that the Saints shall rise first, 
 and that they shall live and reign with Jesus, and I "dare to believe" it. Sir. 
 I "dare to believe" anything I find given by inspiration in God's word. I 
 "dare to do," yes. Sir, I "dare to do" anything God tells me to do: — anything. 
 Here we have the testimony of God's word, that the dead in Christ shall rise 
 first, and that the, rest of the dead shall not live again, (you make out that they 
 are living all the time), "till the thousand years are finished. This is the first 
 resurrection. 6y. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrec- 
 tion: ON such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God 
 and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thouaand years." 
 
 II. thet shall be raised to the glory op the son. 
 Phil. 3:20, 21. — "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the 
 ■Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ who shall change OITRIVILE BODY, tlwi IT may be fashioned 
 ■Wee unto his glorious body." 
 
184 FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 Rom. 6:5. — "For if we have ieen planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall 
 be also in the likeness of his resurrection." 
 
 Psalm 11 : 15. — "As for me, I will hehold thy face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied, 
 when I awake, with thy likeness." 
 
 1 Peter 5 : 4. — "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of 
 glory that fadeth not away." 
 
 They are crowned to reign. 
 
 1 John 3 : 2. — "Beloved, now aire we the sons of God, [so by adoption], and it doth not yet 
 appear what we shall be ; but we know that, when he shall appear, we shoU be like him ; for 
 we shall see him as he is." 
 
 Jolin says we shall be like him. He already has a body of flesh and bones ; 
 we then will have bodies of flesh and bones also. We will not have the kind of 
 spiritual bodies our friend contends for, if we are "like him." Jesus himself 
 said he had flesh and bones, as we read to you before. Yes, it is the testimony 
 of God's word, not only that he had a body of "flesh and bones," but that he 
 ascended, and will descend with it too, and that "we shall be like him," and it 
 does not matter who opposes it. 
 
 2 Tim. 4:1, 8. — "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the 
 faith : henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the right- 
 eous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that, love his 
 appearing.'' 
 
 Paul is to reign with Jesus, and a crown was laid up for him. 
 
 III. ALL WILL BE RESURRECTED; BUT IN THEIR OWN ORDER. 
 
 We might introduce on this an argument from the testimony of Ezekiel, 
 37 : 1-12; but for the purpose of saving time, will omit reading it; and pass to 
 1 Corinthians 15 : 22, 23, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be 
 made alive." As we die in Adam a physical death, — a physical death, I repeat, 
 — ''even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23. But everi/ man in his own 
 order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." 
 Not all, then; but they that are Christ's. Hosea 13:14, "I will ransom them 
 from the power of the grave." Moral grave? No. "I will redeem them from 
 death; deatJi, I will be thy plague; O GRAVE, I will be thi/ destruction; re- 
 pentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Repentance in that resurrection shall 
 be hid from the eyes of the Lord, therefore it will not be a restoration from 
 moral graves; from which even our brother will tell us, repentance is a pre- 
 requisite. 
 
 IV. THERE WILL BE NO MORE DEATH TO THE RIGHTEOUS. 
 "And Jesus answering, said unto them. The children of this world marry, and are given 
 in marriage : but they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resur- 
 rection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage : neither can they die any 
 more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of 
 the resurrection." — Luke 20 : 34-36. 
 
 V. THE RESURRECTION WAS THE HOPE OF THE RIGHTEOUS. 
 
 "0 that my words were now written! that they were printed in a book! That they 
 were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever ! For I know that my Redeemer 
 liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth; and though after my skin 
 worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall 1 see God: whom I shall see for myself, and 
 mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." — Job 19: 
 23-21. 
 
 Ps. 49 : 15. — "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall re- 
 ceive me." 
 
 Acts 24: 15. — "And IvMe hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that tha-e 
 shall he a reswrrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust." 
 
 Talk about the just being in graves of moral pollution ! Is this, Sir, a 
 moral resurrection? A resurrection of those who are morally polluted? No, 
 no! The just and the unjust alike will be raised. Those who have polluted 
 
FORSGUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 185 
 
 themselves, and those who are free from pollution, all will be raised, and brought 
 to judgment; as in Romans 8 : 23 : 
 
 "And no* 07% fhey, but otoselves also, which have the first fruita of tlie Spirit, even 
 we ourselves groan within ourselves, waging for the adoption, to-wit, the redemption of our 
 body." 
 
 VI. THOSE OBTAINING THE FIRST RESURRECTION SHALL REIGN WITH 
 CHRIST ON THE EARTH. 
 
 R.omaOa 5:11. — "For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they 
 which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in h'fe by one 
 Jesus Christ." 
 
 2 Tim. 2: 12.— "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, [let all take 
 this home], he also will deny us." 
 
 Rev. 20: 6. — "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the 
 second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign, 
 with him a thousand years." 
 
 Rev. 5 : 10. — "And hast mjide us unto our God kings and priests: (wd vie ehaU reign on 
 (he earth." 
 
 VII. IN ORDER THAT THESE MAY REIGN; THE DOMINION OP THE WORLD 
 
 WILL BE GIVEN TO THEM, WHEN CHRIST COMES, AND AFTER THE 
 
 THOUSAND tears' REIGN, AND THE LITTLE SEASON, THE 
 
 NATIONS WHO ARE DEAD WILL BE RAISED, AND 
 
 THEY WILL REIGN OVER THEM FOR 
 
 EVERMORE. 
 
 Rev. 11: 15. — "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, 
 saying. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Cliriat; 
 and he shall reign forever and ever." 
 
 The wicked will rise to judgment, and to subjection. The brother wanted 
 to know about this second resurrection ; and notwithstanding his apparent dis- 
 like to evidences adduced from the book of Revelations, yet we notice, though 
 recorded there, that death and hell delivered up their dead; the sea gave up the 
 dead which were in it, and they were all judged according to their works. 
 
 By way of conclusion, I wish to call your attention, by way of review, to a 
 few things. Firstly, Mr. Shinn has been very personal in his manner. First, I 
 was the giant Goliah, and he was the little David with his sling and stone. 
 David was to come out with his stone, and Mark was to go down. He started 
 out with this; but it really seems that he was the one panoplied in the giant's 
 coat of mail, with weapons and ammunition forged and made in the workshops 
 of Greenfield, Griesbach, Wilson, Whittemore, Cobb, Goodwin, Clark, Campbell, 
 Lewis and others, while I came armed only with the sling of faith, and the 
 stone of truth, as found in history and revelation. You will all remember his 
 boasting expressions, "7 will show you," "/ have before proven," "7 have 
 shown," "7 am going to show," "7 will let you see," ''7 am going to prove it 
 again," "Let him prove it if he dare," "Let him show me if he can," "I will 
 teach you," "7 will dare you," time after time, speech after speech, all the way 
 through ; fret, boast, threaten, until I should have sunk beneath him, had I 
 happened to be scary. 
 
 At the closing up of these arguments presented by us, I have not the time 
 I wish to review the arguments ; but I hope you will read the Scripture, and 
 learn what the word of God teaches tipon the questions we have discussed; for 
 our position must stand 6r fall in this debate according as the word of God sus- 
 tains or does not sustain them. 
 
 The proposition is, "Resolved that the Bible teaches a literal resurrection 
 of the body from the grave." The Bible was to be the standard of evidence, 
 King James' translation. But instead of following this, the gentleman has 
 
186 FORSCUTT AND SEINN' 8 DISCUSSION. 
 
 quoted as much as possible from the "Emphatic Diaglott," as though it were the 
 standard. I quoted from it in my last speech this afternoon, in reply to him, or 
 I should not have even referred to it ; but he has given us so much Greek, so 
 many translations from the Q-reek, that if we did not know any better, we wCuld 
 suppose he was himself half G-reek. He has brought forward the arguments of 
 infidels against the word of God, to sustain his position. The representation of 
 this writer is presented when favorable to his views, and of that writer as though 
 they were infallible. Mr. Campbell is quoted, and thus is a bid given for the 
 good will of the Campbellites; Dr. Adam Clarke's and Mr. Goodwin's are quoted, 
 and thus there is a bid made for the Methodists and other orthodox churches; 
 Mr. Whittemore, a Universalist, and Mr. Lewis also a Universalist, are quoted- 
 as learned men, and their views are given without informing you that they are 
 his own church expositors; and these he intersperses with scriptural quotations, 
 and strained arguments thereon, finally closing with an infidel argument to wind 
 up on. 
 
 With myself, the resurrection of the dead is clearly established by the word 
 of God. God has declared that the dead shall rise, and I believe him. I dare 
 not deny it, since he has declared it. 
 
 The gentleman talks about a spiritual rising, a rising of something that 
 never has had an existence, before it has the one he claims for it in the death 
 state ; there is no resurrection about it. It is impossible to recover that which 
 never has been lost; to resuscitate that which never has been dead. The body 
 only has died ; the body only can be restored. This will be done ; God will be 
 glorified, and his word be established in the fulfillment of his promises made by 
 the apostles and by Jesus his Son. 
 
 The brother presents for us the phrase, "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the 
 kingdom of God," as conclusive evidence against the resurrection of the body. 
 The brother doubtless knows the difi'erence between a conjuctive conjunction, 
 and a dii-junctive conjunction; and yet presents to us the wonderful argument, 
 that because flesh and blood can net inherit the kingdom of God, therefore flesh 
 can not inherit it. Because the Scriptures teach that "flesh and blood" can 
 not, does that prove that "flesh and hones" can not? Why, Sir, if flesh and 
 bunes can not inherit the kingdom of God, Jesus is lost; for he took with him 
 his body when he went to heaven; the angels saw him; the disciples saw him; 
 and those angels declared, that this same. Jesus, Jesus with his body of flesh and 
 bones, who had ascended into heaven, should in like manner descend. 
 
 If flesh and bones can not inherit the kingdom of God, Elijah, too, is lost; 
 for he was taken up with his body. Enoch is lost also; for he was translated 
 with his body to heaven. That flesh and bones can not inherit the kingdom of 
 heaven, the Scriptures nowhere declare; flesh and blood, only. 
 
 One of our brother's strong arguments is presented to us in relation to the 
 testimony of Job. I do not call it up again for the purpose of making a counter 
 argument upon it; but I will read the testimony, leave out the italicised words 
 to which Elder Shinn objects, and supply the one suggested by the gentleman's 
 remark, that you may see the force of his argument: "And ( — ) after my skin 
 ( — ) destroy this small pox," — grand argument! "Destroy the small pox?" 
 Yes, Sir, this is the rendering, with the Bible word omitted, and your wonder- 
 ful delineative word "small-pox" supplied in the place of the word "bodi/." 
 Wonderful interpretation of Job's words ! Job had the small pox, the brother 
 said. Job's true words evidently were, "And though after my skin worms de- 
 stroy this boby, yet in my flesh shall I see God." And a grand utterance it 
 was, Sir, too. Does your rendering improve it, think you? This small pox? 
 Not a word about small-pox there. It is a shameful perversion. I do not know 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSIOJ^. 187 
 
 that I wish to make any further particular argument in reference to this now; 
 and I need not attempt to review so flagrant a violation of truth. 
 
 The brother wasted a great deal of time in the discussion, to show that we 
 have an existence beyond the grave; and he presented his arguments to you 
 upon this theory as though his opponent did not believe in it. He did likewise 
 concerning the doctrine of angels and spirits. We also believe in them, and the 
 brother knows we believe in them; aye, too strongly for him. The promises of 
 God are yea and Amen ; and the time will come when the angels can come to 
 us personally, as they did to others in ancient times. 
 
 We believe all the word of God from the beginning to the end. There is 
 not a principle, not an ordinance, not a doctrine, not a teaching, not a command- 
 ment, there is nothing in the word of God, nothing that the Saints believed in 
 ■ in ancient days, but we receive it. Whatever God has spoken, we believe it is. 
 our duty, as a people, to receive, and it is a part of our faith to accept it. 
 
 The brother argues that the body can not be restored, because there are 
 some who are lame on earth, and they would come up cripples in heaven. God 
 never made any cripples at the beginning. These conditions came from 
 unnatural causes. These came not by the keeping of God's law, but by the 
 breaking of it. When Jesus comes, the first law that he gave to man will be in 
 force, and everything will be restored as it was at the beginning, and everything 
 will be good. The present conditions affecting this body in mortality will be 
 removed, and new conditions will obtain with the new life which will be infused 
 into it. Yet every essential part of the body now, will be a part of the body 
 then. There will therefore be no more cripples, no more lame ones then. It is 
 a lame argument, Elder Shinn. The brother asks, if the body is scattered here 
 and there, how can it be gathered up again. Almighty power can do many 
 things which finite power can not do. The chemist can reduce precious metal 
 to powder, scatter it among earth and refuse matter, and gather it again. God 
 diffuses the waters from the clouds throughout the earth; but he gathers them 
 again. Nothing is lost; nothing, elementarily, is annihilated; all therefore can 
 be recovered. The wisdom of the Infinite is sufficient for both the preservation 
 and restoration of the essential particles of the elementary substances of this 
 body, and the embodiment of them in a form suited to the higher and better 
 expression of the powers of the spirit which shall then inhabit it. 
 
 I see no difficulty in the way at all, only the difficulty of unbelief. An ex- 
 ercise of that principle which is commanded by Jesus, in his words to Peter, 
 "Have faith in God, would keep us from doubting the promises of the word of 
 God; and would enable us to know that he who hath promised, is able to pre- 
 pare the way for the fulfillment of his promises. Will my brother hold, that be- 
 cause it is impossible with men, that it is impossible with God ? With men 
 many things are impossible, with God all things are possible. 
 
 He who preserves this vast creation around us, and the laws by which it. 
 exists; he who causes the sun, the moon and the stars to move in their proper 
 orbits; he who preserves a perfect balance between the forces in nature; he who- 
 created man with all his wondrous endowments; he who has done this, and who 
 preserves all things by the one through whom they were created, has also given, 
 unto that one other powers, power to perform other things, even to call the dead 
 to life again, to refashion them, to renew the earth, and to make a new earth 
 and a new heaven. The Holy Ghost, in the word of God, has promised that all 
 these things shall be done. 
 
 Away then with the infidel theory of impossibility. Such a negative argu- 
 ment might be made on every subject. A thousand things transpire around us. 
 unseen in nature, that we might consider as impossible, did we rely on our un- 
 
188 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 derstanding of them. Even some things that are familiar now, would onc» have 
 been deemed impossible. The time was, and but a few years ago, when our 
 fathers would have thought it a thing impossible, to have carriages go without 
 horses or some beast of draught. That the elements of fire and water would 
 ever generate steam that could be so applied as to furnish the power of transit 
 round the world, would once have been disbelieved in, and laughed at. The 
 idea of fire and water drawing thousands of tons of weight over land and sea, 
 would have been disbelieved, and that such results could obtain from the use of 
 these elements, would have been thought impossible. If it had been said some 
 years ago, that iron would swim in water, the speaker would have met the same 
 incredulity that Mother Shipton did, yet the effectiveness of the iron clads of 
 advanced nations leaves us no room to doubt. This, though an age of advanced 
 and advancing thought in scientific and philosophical matters, is far behind the 
 earlier ages in matters of faith; but when those who now "contend for the faith 
 once delivered to the Saints" shall have secured what they seek after; when 
 angels shall again visit and companioniate with man as in days of yore, we may 
 learn sufficient of the operations of the power by which the dead will be raised, 
 to leave no more room for doubt on that subject, than we now have to doubt 
 what our fathers deemed impossible. That which is presented by me, as taught 
 in the word of Grod, may now seem impossible, yet in the great future, my 
 brother, even you will believe the word of God; for it will be realized in the 
 resurrection of the dead, by calling forth the particles essential for restoring the 
 body, and either making it glorious for immortality, or bringing it forth to con- 
 demnation. The power of Grod, however impossible it may seem to you now, 
 will be sufficient, and will accomplish this. 
 
 In presenting the arguments which I have presented, I have done so, as I 
 doubt not my brother has, in perfect honesty. Whatever his mannerisms or 
 errors may be that I have referred to, I have no doubt of his enJire honesty in 
 the matter. In coming to present these things, it was not of my own seeking; 
 it was not of my own desiring. I have come only in the defense of the truth as 
 I believe it to exist in Christ Jesus. I have come, because I felt that duty de- 
 manded I should come, and do the best I might be able. Under a sense of duty, 
 I have done the best I could to present the truth, and to do it in that way that 
 would harm nothing but error. If I have ofiended any one, in all sincerity, I 
 ask for forgiveness ; for I have desired to hurt the feelings of no one. My ob- 
 ject has been to present the truth in the true spirit of truth. My ruling desire 
 is to save souls for Jesus, and I know, as I know that I live, that in presenting 
 the doctrine of the church I represent, I present the doctrines of Jesus ; hence 
 I call your earnest attention to the consideration of them. I am very anxious 
 that you should read on the subject of the resurrection, and you will find that 
 without it, the race perishes, and our hope is hst. If there be no resurrection of 
 the dead, "All who have fallen asleep in Christ are perished," is the apostle 
 Paul's argument. The Greek word here, is Apollumi, rendered some thirty 
 times in the New Testament lose and lost. 
 
 There is one statement made by Elder Shinn which I unintentionally 
 passed, viz., that if Saul and his sons went to Samuel, the Elder wonders 
 whether they were not like him, having a body. He predicates the theory of 
 Samuel having a body, on the appearance of the one claiming to.be Samuel, who 
 appeared to the witch of Endor. I reject the theory, and deny the predicate. 
 The "small-pox" of Job," the "witch's" representation of Samuel, the offer of 
 "old boots and shoes" to see John, are poor arguments, Elder. 
 
 Remember that the doctrine of the resurrection is one of the principles of 
 the doctrine of Christ, one of the six principles, one of the essentials of the 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINIT S DISCUSSION. 189 
 
 doctrine of Christ. Destroy one of the essentials of any system, and it is 
 damaged; this is worthless. It is because I believe in the gospel system in its 
 entirety; it is because I believe in the Bible, and accept all the promises in the 
 gospel, that I have defended this doctrine of the resurrection. 
 
 I tell my brother I have seen the time when I thought very much as he 
 now does. I tried to reason myself into the mysteries of the doctrine of the 
 resurrection ; but I failed. I then went on my knees humbly before my God, 
 and asked him for help, and praised be his name, he did not withhold it from 
 me. I am now as satisfied of the truth of the doctrine of the resurrection of the 
 body, as of that of faith, or of the son-ship of Jesus. Light shed its influence 
 upon me, in answer to earnest prayer, to such a degree, that I am changed very 
 much in my views on this subject, so much that in submitting the question of 
 the resurrection to you, I am established in the doctrine; and like Paul, my hope 
 is vain, if the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead be not true. 
 
 The resurrection of the dead ! I have already sufficiently explained my- 
 self. It is a "resurrection of the dead ones," of that which is dead, and that is 
 the body; if that be not raised, my hope is vain. With Paul, with the ancients, 
 I feel that I am lost, pei-ished, should there be no deliverance from the grasp of 
 that monster, death. 
 
 We are told that Jesus preached to the dead, and the Bible gives the 
 reason why he preached to them. This, brother, Jesus did say, as you have quo- 
 ted, "Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall 
 hear the voice of the Son of God." The very same year as that in which he 
 uttered that saying, the Jews put him to death, and Peter tells us that in the 
 spirit he preached to the spirits in prison, (1 Peter 3 : 18-20), to those whose 
 bodies were dead, who died here; yes, in that very "hour," in that very year, 
 the dead did hear the voice of the Son of God, and Peter says he preached the 
 gospel to them, not only that they might receive the gospel, but that they might 
 live to God in the spirit, and be judged as men are judged in the flesh. 
 
 May God bless his truth to your enlightenment and salvation, is my prayer 
 for you in the name of Jesus, our risen Savior. Amen. 
 
 Elder Eorscutt closed, as the "Time" of the Moderator warned him that 
 his half hour had passed. 
 
 Elder Shinn's closing reply is as follows : 
 
 Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: 
 
 I really do not understand my brother. I thought he manifested a little 
 ill feeling; I think, he was a little out of humor during his last speech. 
 
 Elder Forscutt. "Not at all." 
 
 Elder Shinn. He says he was not. I am glad to hear he was not very 
 much out of humor. I thought from the stress he placed upon his accusations 
 of me standing before you and teaching infidel doctrines, that he was out of 
 humor. 1 tell you. Sir, that the doctrines presented here are not infidel doc- 
 trines. The doctrine of a moral resurrection, is the doctrine that was taught by 
 Jesus Christ. If it is infidel to teach that the body changes, brother Goodwin 
 was a tremendous old infidel. He must have been. A noted scholarly Method- 
 ist. What a noted infidel Dr. Hitchcock must have been, Edward Hitchcock, 
 D. D., late president of the Amherst College., I will read an extract from him : 
 
190 FORSGUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 
 
 "The chemist can demonstrate that the body laid in the grave is decomposed into its ul- 
 timate elements, and that these, by almost endless transmutations, pass through, or rather 
 constitute a part of other bodies ; so that the successiveness of men that appear on the globe 
 consist at least in part, of the same particles which entered into the composition of their pro- 
 genitors. This makes it physically impossible, that the identical particles or atoms which 
 constitute the body laid in the grave, should belong to the resurrection body as a whole." — 
 Phenomena of Pour Seasons, page 29. 
 
 So much for tliat infidel in the brother's estimation. Because we do not 
 believe; because we can not believe, that this animal body will be resurrected 
 from the grave, we are all infidels. How do you like to have that rung in your 
 ears by my friend at the close of this discussion ? The most sensible, and the 
 most scientific men of the religious world to-day, have all gone over to the infi- 
 dels. The brother is welcome to all that. 
 
 He talks about buncomb and represents that I took a great deal of pains to 
 manifest buncomb during this debate. I do not think that looks very well after 
 all that he has said about pinning me down. "O consistency, thou art a jewel." 
 If you are dissatisfied with this debate, you can have the chance of debating it 
 to your heart's content. 
 
 Elder Forseutt, in reply. "I accept it. Let it be understood that I ac- 
 cept it." 
 
 Elder Shinn. He says in this connection, that our religion does away with 
 Christ. What a discovery ! All these noted and learned men who agree with 
 us, have no use for Christ any longer. Why? Because we' discard the idea of 
 the old body being brought up again. That is the reason of it. I will say to 
 my brother, for a wonder, we believe in Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world, 
 of all mankind. We dare to say it, and he does not. How does that sound, in 
 comparison with his buncomb ? 
 
 "A thousand years." I would like to present my view in regard to that en- 
 tire revelation; but I will just read a commentary on the thousand years: 
 
 "There is some difficulty in determining what particular time is intended by the thousand 
 years. The only aid furnished by the other sacred books in coming to a right understanding 
 of this matter is, they seem to show that the number, a thousand, was used proverbially for 
 many. Hence we read of a thousand generations for many generations ; and one chasing a 
 thousand, for chasing many. Again G-od says, 'The cattle upon a thousand hills are mine,' 
 where no one will pretend that the exact number of a thousand is intended. . We read also, 
 'A day in thy courts is better than a thousand,' to which the same remarks will apply. 
 Lightfoot says, 'The Jews counted the days of the Messias a thousand years.' And Auruob 
 speaks of it as a thing of undeniable knowledge and entertainment. And so speaks R. Eliezer, 
 'The days of the Messias are a thousand years.' " — Thomas "^''hittemore. Commentary on 
 Revelation, 20:3. 
 
 The thousand years, then, does not refer to an exact time, but only means 
 some, or many. That is all there is about it. In regard to the exact time, I 
 have my opinion that it refers to the reign of the Messiah here on this earth ; 
 to his kingdom here on this earth, and I believe I am correct about it. 
 
 He says because all mankind die a physical death in Adam, therefore the 
 literal body must be brought up from the grave. I cannot see the analogy in 
 regard to that. To be made alive is a new creature. The old creature is gone, 
 and there is a new creation. The spirit lives on in the spiritual body, that 
 house which is from heaven. 
 
 The brother finds fault with me because I furnish authorities for what I 
 say. Did you not read from twenty authors ? 
 
 Elder Eorscutt. "No, Sir; I deny it. I gave you what I said was the de- 
 finition of twenty authors, and said I could furnish them if it was desired. I 
 did not present the twenty." 
 
FORSaUTT AND SHINN' S DISCUSSION. 191 
 
 Elder Shinn. "Did not you give those authors?" 
 
 Elder Forscutt. "I will leave it to the Moderators." 
 
 Elder Shinn. "Besides that, you have submitted other authority besides 
 King James' translation." 
 
 Elder Forscutt. "Not until to-day." 
 
 Elder Shinn. "Well, that shows you have done just what you abused me 
 for doing, and that is all I want to prove in regard to that matter." Resuming 
 his argument — Finally, my brother tries to throw an analogy between the rail- 
 road traveling, and so on and so forth, and the resurrection of the literal animal 
 body. In relation to this analogy, I can not see the point. He says this debate 
 was not of his seeking. In relation to this matter, I have but little to say. 
 The matter of the debate was stirred up, and we have had the debate, and that 
 is enough. He has stood, however, nearly where I stand. What if he did 
 stand nearly where I stand. Tried to remain there, he says, or rather tried to 
 gain a knowledge of the truth. 
 
 Elder Forscutt. "That is it." 
 
 Elder Shinn. "I presume that was in Canton, about a year ago. I have 
 some testimony here, from a lady in Canton. I do not know — perhaps it would 
 not be very respectable to read it." 
 
 Elder Forscutt. "Perhaps you would better read it, or the people may 
 think it is worse than it is." 
 
 Elder Shinn. "I do not do this out of any ill will or ill feeling, but just to 
 show you why he stood so nearly where I stand now." 
 
 "One year ago, — the evidence is from a lady friend of yours, and from a 
 gentleman also, both friends of yours, told me that Br. Forscutt, in preaching in 
 regard to this matter, said that men died and were buried, and the grass grew 
 upon their graves, from the material of their bodies, that this was nipped off by 
 the sheep, and the sheep eaten by men, and finally confessed himself to be afloat. 
 This was only about a year ago." 
 
 Elder Forscutt. "I believe that now." 
 
 Elder Shinn. "Perhaps he was not very thoroughly converted, was the 
 reason he stood so nearly where I stand now." 
 
 Resuming his argument. Now I must commence my review. I have not 
 time to get through, however. I will not be able to review all my brother's 
 arguments. 
 
 The word anastasis, I showed, did not mean a revival of that which was 
 dead; but simply signified a rising. I believe my brother has admitted, all 
 along through the discussion, that the word anastasis, translated resurrection, 
 did not mean a bringing to life of that which was dead. You know the mean- 
 ing I gave, and the authors which I presented. It means rising, standing up, 
 and so forth. Acts 24 : 15. He places his argument here upon the tense being 
 future. I showed that the resurrection was future at that time, and that this 
 did not destroy the theory of a progressive resurrection. Neither does it to-day. 
 The resurrection is still future. Job 19 : 22-27. The brother argues that Job 
 was to see God in his flesh. I showed you that he did see God in his flesh, "I 
 have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; but now mine eye seeth thee." 
 The brother did not want me to leave out the italics, and to strictly adhere to 
 King James' translation. I told him that it would be against him still; for the 
 
192 FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 marginal, reading is, "Out of my flesh." Isaiah 26; I showed you conclusively 
 that this pertains to the nation. 
 
 Romans 8 : 20. The word creature there spoken of, that is made subject 
 to vanity, is that which is to be delivered from the bondage of corruption. I 
 think I showed conclusively, that it was the whole body of humanity; and not 
 the physical, literal animal body we live in. 
 
 1 Corinthians 15 : 35-38. I called his attention to the fact, that "Thou 
 sowest not that body that shall be," showing conclusively, that this old body 
 would not be raised; that it corresponded with the part of the grain that died 
 and mouldered away, and the spirit corresponded with the germ of the grain, 
 and that that arose in accordance with the meaning of the word "anastasis," 
 therefore, "Thou sowest not that body that shall be," but "God gives it a body 
 as it pleases him, and to every seed his own body." That the spirit will be 
 clothed upon with a spiritual body, "for there is an animal body, and there is a 
 spiritual body." That spiritual body, I told my brother, was the house not 
 made with hands, eternal in the heavens. It is of heaven, heavenly. 
 
 Ecolesiastes 12 : 7. My brother referred to this, and I also referred to it. 
 The point upon that was, I believe, about this body returning to the dust as it 
 was, and the spirit to God who gave it. 
 
 Then my brother quotes, "Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of 
 God," and says that it means blood, but does not mean flesh. He says, it no- 
 where is said, that flesh and bones can not inherit the kingdom of God. I tell 
 you, my brother, flesh can not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Blood can not 
 inherit the kingdom of heaven. It is just as conclusive that flesh can not in- 
 herit the kingdom, as it is that blood can not inherit the kingdom. I have not 
 a particle of doubt, but the apostle meant to show that this animal body, couldi 
 never inherit the kingdom. 
 
 Abrahamic promise. I showed you that that part of it that was temporal, 
 had been fulfilled to the Jews, and that the fulfillment of the spiritual part of 
 that promise, would result not only in the blessing of the Jews, and will result 
 in the purifying and making holy of all souls, which will take place before Jesus 
 comes personally, at the end of the world, or at the end of his reign, when the 
 living will undergo a change equivalent to death, and will be caught up in 
 clouds or flocks to 'meet the Lord in the air, and then he will deliver up the 
 kingdom to "God the Father, that he may be all in all." It is remarkable, that 
 right where I believe Jesus ends his reign, my brother thinks he com- 
 mences it. I read Thessalonians in regard to this matter. I showed my broth- 
 er in regard to the body of Christ, that it could not be an exact type of our 
 bodies. Christ was only three days and three nights in the grave, and we lay, 
 according to our brother, a longer period of time than that. How many thous- 
 ands of years has there been since the creation of mankind, and men have died 
 and their bodies were buried in the graves. There is no resemblance between 
 Christ's body being in the grave only three days and three nights, and other 
 bodies lying for thousands of years. I admitted that Christ's literal body was 
 raised from the dead; but what became of that literal body that ascended to 
 heaven, I do not know, neither does any other man know. 
 
 The moral resurrection. I showed you that much that is said in regard to 
 the subject of the resurrection, pertains to the moral resurrection of the believer 
 in this life; represents his being made alive from the dead, and receiving ever- 
 lasting eternal life now. Paul was trying to attain unto the resurrection Phil 
 3:10-12: 
 
 "JTot as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if 
 that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." 
 
FORSCUTT AND SHINN'S DISCUSSION. 193 
 
 This has no reference to the resurrection of the literal body, but to the 
 moral resurrection under the reign of Jesus Christ, as I have shown. 
 
 Two resurrections of the literal dead, I have denied all the way through 
 this debate. I wanted him to explain himself. There may be a resurrection 
 now, or there may be one by and by. A resurrection now, a resurrection then, 
 and another by and by. I wanted him to distinguish the two. I do not think 
 the Bible teaches any such doctrine. Paul speaks of a resurrection of the 
 dead, of all mankind; again, he speaks of a resurrection of the dead, both of the 
 just and the unjust, It is one resurrection, not a half a dozen. John 5; Rom- 
 ans 20. It would be partial if John 5 is taken, "Marvel ,not at this; for the 
 hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves," tombs, showing that it 
 would be partial. In Revelations two resurrections are spoken of, but not of 
 the literal dead. That is not a literal resurrection, but a moral resurrection. 
 It represents the reign of the Messiah on the earth, as I understand it. 
 
 Thus have I recapitulated my brother's arguments. Now I have a recap- 
 itulation of my own to present. 
 
 I showed first, in opposition to my brother's view of the material animal 
 body, that man was fiuet made in the image of God. That Grod was spirit, and 
 man being in his likeness, the true man was a spirit entity. 
 
 I showed that man was given a form, that he was clothed upon with skin 
 and flesh, and "fenced with bones," in the language of Job. I showed that this 
 was in harmony with Paul, where he says, "I knew a man about fourteen years 
 ago, whether in the body or out of the body," showing that the true man was a 
 spirit entity, and that Paul understood that he could live in the body or out of 
 the body, and that he could be caught up to the third heaven. I showed you 
 Peter's testimony in harmony with this, and drew this argument from it, that 
 the true man is the spirit, or inner man. 2 Corinthians 4:16; Ephesians 3: 
 14-16. 
 
 The spirit in the inner man, I believe to be the true man, a spirit entity. 
 
 1 also read 2 Corinthians 5 : 6-8, "We are confident I say, and willing rather 
 to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Mark you, the 
 true man is to be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. Same 
 chapter 1-4, "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were 
 dissolved," referring to the animal body, "we have a building of God, a house 
 not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. "For in this we groan, earnestly 
 desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven, * * * that 
 mortality may be swallowed up of life." This destroys the infidel objection 
 against Christianity, and explodes the idea of a resurrection of the literal body. 
 
 2 Corinthians 4 : 8, "While we look not at the things which are seen," etc; 
 Hebrews 11 : 3, "Through faith we understand the worlds were framed by the 
 word of God, etc. 
 
 Then I showed you the testimony of others, showing you they had at least 
 some idea of a future life. I showed you that Moses and Elias were living 
 away back there, and that it was demonstrated to Moses at the burning bush, 
 that all live unto God, according to the testimony of Jesus Christ. This is in 
 harmony with a progressive resurrection, that "all live unto God." 
 
 My brother presented the view that Christ was the first one resurrected 
 from the dead. I presented the theory that Christ came to create no new truth, 
 but to bear witness to the truth. That he brought life and immortality into the 
 light. That those truths existed before he came into the world, that they were 
 eternal truths. 
 
 I presented as my fourth argument, thit immortality and progressive resur- 
 rection are eternal truths. 
 
194 FORSCUTT AND SSmJV'S DISCUSSION. 
 
 I shall be compelled to omit further recapitulation. I ■would say to my 
 brother in conclusion of the discussion, though we may have differed, I accord 
 to him perfect honesty; and, my brother, I offer you my hand in perfect friend- 
 ship at the close of this discussion. I thank you, G-entlemen Moderators, for 
 the candor which you have manifested during the debate. And to you, ladies 
 and gentlemen, who have so kindly listened to us, I return my heartiest thanks. 
 
 The inexorable call of "Time," closed the discussion as Elder Shinn yielded 
 the floor. 
 
 Elder Forscutt. "Messrs. Moderators, — In behalf of the negative of the 
 first question, and the affirmative of the second, I move that a vote of thanks be 
 tendered to the Gentlemen Moderators, who have conducted this debate with 
 such credit and precision. ^^ 
 
 The motion was put by the reporter, at the request of Elder Forscutt, and 
 
 carried unanimously. 
 
 D. F. Lambert, Beporter. 
 
 Elder John H. Lake, of Farmington, Iowa, acted as Moderator in behalf 
 of Elder Forscutt, and Rev. J. Hughes, of Table Grove, Illinois, in behalf of 
 Kev. Shinn. 
 
 PBINTED AT THE TBUE lATTBR'DAT SAINTS' HEEALD OFFICE, PLANO, ILLS.