E. C V5 - • CORNELL UNIVERSITY LIBRARY DATE DUE J ' TO J/MV" • : GAYLORD PRINTED IN U.SA The original of this book is in the Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924088421569 KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION f-. HEARINGS BEFORE THE JOINT COMMISSION OF THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES SIXTY-THIRD CONGRESS SECOND SESSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS MARCH 21, 1914 PART 9 Printed for the use of the Joint Commission 0&i WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1914 13 £ Congress of the United States. JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS. Senators : Representatives : JOB T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas. HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma. CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota. R. B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary. Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk. n KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. SATURDAY, MARCH 21, 1914. Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, Washington, D. 0. The joint commission met in room No. 128, Senate Office Building, at 7.30 o'clock p. m. B Present: Senator Lane (acting chairman) and Eepresentative Stephens. Chief Ishiti, Mom-Sue-Quat, Charley Buffalo, and several other Kiowa and Comanche Indians were duly sworn by Senator Lane. Wilbur Peowa and James Waldo were duly sworn by Senator Lane as interpreters. Senator Lane. Who is the first witness ? Mr. Peowa. Chief Ishiti. Eepresentative Stephens. Where is he from? Mr. Peowa. The Comanche Tribe of Oklahoma. Representative Stephens. Where is the agency? Mr. Peowa. The agency is at Anardarko. Representative Stephens. Who is the agent there? Mr. Peowa. Ernest Stecker. Representative Stephens. How long has he been agent ? Mr. Peowa. About six years. Representative Stephens. Who was agent before him? Mr. Peowa. Mr. Blackman. Representative Stephens. Who was agent before him? Mr. Peowa. Mr. Randlett. STATEMENT OF MR. W. S. FERGUSON, ANADARKO, OKLA Senator Lane. They want to tell us something about conditions. Is that it? Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. That is what we want. Are you the interpreter? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. All we want to know is the facts without prejudice. We are not trying to hurt anybody or do anybody any injury; but we want to get the right thing for the Indians — to be fair. And that is all an Indian wants — just the fair thing. Mr. Ferguson. I want to say this much. They have filed with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs a list of things that they wanted. I think they filed about eight articles. I will tell you how it came about. They met Mr. Sells at Okla- homaCity, the train was late, and they had only about 20 minutes' talk with him. Mr. Sells told these boys to put it in the form of a 921 922 KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. petition and send it to him (what they wanted) and he would take the matter up. Well, they became kind of leary about this petition proposition. They had had no many of them come up and be pigeon- holed. So they said they were going to come up here themselves, and that is what brought them up here ; they have not asked for a thing only what is on that petition here. Representative Stephens. I will have a copy of that petition here Monday. Mr. Ferguson. I didn't know we were going to meet you this even- ing, and ; in consequence, I have not got the petition with me. Senator Lane. When are you going away ? Mr. Ferguson. To-night at 11 o'clock. We want to be as brief as we can. Senator Lane. What is your relation to them? Mr. Ferguson. None whatever; only a friend, sir. Senator Lane. You live down there? Mr. Ferguson. I live down there, and I have been doing business with them for 13 years. Senator Lane. What is your business ? Mr. Ferguson. No business now at all. I used to be in the hard- ware business. Representative Stephens. What is your name? Mr. Ferguson. W. S. Ferguson. I have been a representative of the Indian Credit Association there. I was at one time president of the Indian Credit Association. That is an association formed for the purpose of procuring information and fixing it so the Indians could procure credit with the business men. There was 18 months there that conditions had been such that they could not get any credit. They don't make any payments to them, you understand, so it became necessary for us to make arrangements whereby these In- dians could live and so we could be protected. That is what formed this association. We had an understanding with the agent that we would not foreclose any of the notes or mortgages they might have had on those Indians' property for a certain time. He had an ap- propriation of $250,000, and sent a commission down there to pay them, which was very unsatisfactory, I must say, as far as getting them out of debt was concerned. It did not reach far enough. In the meantime they have had their lease moneys and the $40 payments, and they are in fine condition at the present time. There are 60 per cent of these men, represented by these men here, that are prac- tically out of debt now. Senator Lane. Lease money for what ? Mr. Ferguson. On their land rentals. Senator Lane. Farm lands? Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Have they fairly good farm lands ? Mr. Ferguson. The finest you' ever saw, I think. The finest in Oklahoma. I will say that much. Senator Lane. Are any of these men farmers ? Mr. Ferguson. Every one of them. Senator Lane. And successful farmers? Mr. Ferguson. No, sir. Senator Lane. Why? KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. 923 Mr. Ferguson. For the simple reason they have never had the proper instruction, or no instruction whatever. Senator Lane. Do they have tools and implements? Mr. Ferguson. Some of them. Senator Lane. Do not all of them ? Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir; I will say the majority of them have. Senator Lane. Are they good workers? Mr. Ferguson. Some of them; the majority are not. Senator Lane. Don't they like the farm ? Mr. Ferguson. They have never been instructed in regard to this line of work. I would rather for you to ask these Indians on that point, because they might say I was leading them. I would like you to ask them. Senator Lane. What is the first line you want to take up? Mr. Ferguson. The first -is in regard to the minors' moneys that is retained in the banks now under the present ruling. They want that money paid to the parents or to the minors when they are married. There are several of those minors that are married, and they ask that the minors' moneys be paid to the parents for their maintenance and support. Senator Lane. Where are the moneys deposited now ? Mr. Ferguson. In the banks. Senator Lane. What money have they got deposited in the banks at present ? Mr. Ferguson. That is something they can not tell you themselves. Senator Lane. Is that $600,000 fund'? Mr. Ferguson. All their lease money will be deposited. That is an order from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I wish you would ask Chief Ishiti what he wanted in regard to the minors' moneys, how he wanted it paid. # TESTIMONY OF CHIEF ISHITI. Senator Lane. Now, go ahead with the answer, Mr. Ishiti. Chief Ishiti (through Interpreter Peowa). We want the chil- dren's money to be paid to their parents. Senator Lane. What is being done with it now that you object to? Chief Ishiti. The objections that we have is the putting of the children's money in the banks. Senator Lane. What would the parents do with it for the children now ? What use would they make of it if they had the money for the children ? What does the chief say about that ? Chief Ishiti. This money, if the parents get it, would help to sup- port the families. Senator 'Lane. Is their condition such that they need this money in order to support the families ? Are they so poor as that ? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. If the parents could support the children until the children became of age, would it not be better for the children to have this fund when they are grown to start in with, to buy them- selves a farm or set themselves up in life, if there is enough of it, rather than have it expended for their support now ? Are not their parents able to support them ? 924 KIOWA AND COMANCHE EESERVATION. Chief Ishiti. That would be a good idea, but the funds that they receive is not sufficient to support the families. Senator Lane. How much is there in this children's fund ? How much does it amount to for each child, about? Chief Ishiti. I have no idea. Senator Lane. Did any of you ever look into it? Do they make you a report on these things and show you where you stand ? Mr. Peowa. No, sir. Senator Lane. Do they draw any funds? The chief himself — does he draw any from the Government? Mr. Peowa. It is this way. We have been getting what we call the annuity payment. That has been in the past, and this comes every six months. Senator Lane. How much is it? Mr. Peowa. Fifty dollars ; but that has been abolished for two or three years, and these payments that we are getting, it seems to be special payments, and the average- is different. Senator Lane. Have you had any this year ? How much have you had this last year ? Mr. Peowa. They had about $40, I think. Senator Lane. When did you get that ? Mr. Peowa. That has been paid in February. Senator Lane. When do you get the next payment, do you know ? Mr. Peowa. I don't know. That is what we can't understand. Senator Lane. How do these Indians make a living? You say they are farmers mostly. Are they stockmen, any of them ? Mr. Peowa. Some of them. Senator Lane. Are they better at farming or better at stock rais- ing? The Comanches, you know, used to be great horsemen in the old days. . Mr. Waldo. They might be just as good workers as any white men — farmers — but they don't have anything to start with. That is the trouble with a great many Indians. Mr. Peowa. That is the main trouble. Mr. Waldo. If the Government wants them to do that kind of work, let them have the money; let them buy the team and buy the provisions with it, and they can farm and do something. But the way they have been held down, how can a man do the thing without having any money ? Senator Lane. That is the opinion of you folks generally, is it ? Mr. Waldo. Yes. Senator Lane. You think if you had the plows, the horses, the teams, and other things you need you could go out and work a farm successfully, do you ? Mr. Peowa. There are many able-bodied young men down there, able to do any kind of work, but on account of being short in every- thing it is impossible for them to do anything, and the right instruc- tion they need. Mr. Ferguson. You understand, they have no industrial farmer. They have a district farmer, but about all he does is to take the checks around. representative Stephens. What is his name ? Mr. Ferguson. They have several down there, you know. Eepresentative Stephens. How many do they have? KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. 925 Mr. Waldo. About five or six of them. Senator Lane. How many Indians are there that these five or six supply? . Mt ; Waldo. I couldn't tell you exactly, but there are about five or six oi them. Senator Lane. I mean how many Indians are there— Kiowas and Comanches ? Mr. Waldo. Oh, about 3,300. Representative Stephens. What are the names of these farmers t Mr. Ferguson. George Hunt is one of the farmers, and a man by the name of Eay. He is at Anadarko. Mr. Bell— that is three. Mr. Peowa. Mr. Bergson is another one. Mr. Ferguson. I am not acquainted with them. Senator Lane. I want to ask you about that. Do not these farm- ers go around and show these people how to farm ? Mr. Waldo. None whatever. Senator Lane. Are you a farmer ? Mr. Waldo. Used to farm. Senator Lane. You have not seen them go around and show the Indians how to farm? Mr. Waldo. Not at an times. They never come around to my place. Senator Lane. What is your name ? Mr. Waldo. Waldo is my name. Senator Lane. Ask the chief if he has ever seen these farmers, and whether or not they go around and teach the Indians how to farm. Chief Ishiti (through Interpreter Peowa). I never have seen the district farmer come around to show the Indians how to do their work. Senator Lane. How long have you had these farmers on your reservation ? Chief Ishiti. I don't exactly know when the time was when they began to have district farmers. Senator Lane. About how old a man is the chief ? Mr. Peowa. Seventy-five. Senator Lane. Have there not been farmers on the reservation pretty nearly all the time that he has been on the reservation ? Chief Ishiti. I don't exactly know the time. Senator Lane. The reason I was asking, out where I live I think we have had farmers there among the Indians all my life, and I sup- posed the same conditions applied everywhere. Mr. Ferguson. I think about 20 or 25 years. I would like you to ask Waldo the same question. Mr. Waldo. As I said, I don't know. I don't monkey with this. Senator Lane. How long have you known of there being farmers ? Mr. Waldo. About six or seven years. . Senator Lane. Before that did they have no farmers ? Mr. Waldo. I don't know whether they did or not. Senator Lane. Do any of these other Indians know? Ask the rest of the boys. Mr. Momo-Sue-Quat (through Interpreter Peowa). I know a farmer to be there some time. I don't know the number of years. It has been quite a while. , Mr. Ferguson. I was going to ask Mr. Millett there the same question 926 KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. Mr. Peowa. He says he don't exactly know. Senator Lane. Has it been a number of years or just a short time? Mr. Momo-Sue-Quat. I know that to be ever since they opened up the country. Mr. Ferguson. That is 13 years ago. Senator Lane. That is right; it must have been. Now, don't all of these gentlemen speak English? Mr. Peowa. Not all of them ; not very well. Senator Lane. How are your school facilities there ? Do the young Indians all speak English? Mr. Peowa. Most of them. Senator Lane. And go to school? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Have you good schools there? Mr. Peowa. They have a boarding school, and then they are be- ginning to attend public schools, most of them. Senator Lane. Going to public schools ? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What are the conditions as to health there? Do a good many of the Indians have consumption — tuberculosis? Mr. Peowa. Not so very many. Senator Lane. How about trachoma — sore eves. Is there a good deal of that? Mr. Peowa. I don't know. I don't see very many of them. Senator Lane. Ask the chief if he notices much of that among his people. Chief Ishiti (through Interpreter Peowa). There is a few cases. Senator Lane. What do you say about that, Mr. Millett ? Mr. Millett (through Interpreter Peowa). I know a few cases. Senator Lane. They are a pretty healthy lot of people, then, are they? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. I want to ask you another thing. Is the agent good and kind to them? Does he treat them fairly? Does he look out for their interests or not? Have they any complaint to make? Chief Ishiti (through Interpreter Peowa). That is one of the main reasons for my coming up here. Senator Lane. They do not have confidence in him? Doesn't he treat them kindly and justly? Chief Ishiti. I went up to the agency once upon a time to find out when a payment was to be made, and this agent was writing upon a piece of paper when I came in his office, and he had us standing there before him quite awhile before he looked up and asked us what we wanted, and I said that the people asked me to go up to the agency and find out about the payment, so we came there to see when the payment was going to be made. And the agent told me to go home and stay there. He says he will make the payment some time. Senator Lane. Then, they don't like the agent. Is that right? What other complaint have they to make against him ? Chief Ishiti. For those reasons we don't want the agent there. I heard that he drinks, and I think that is why he gave us those talks the way he talked to us. Senator Lane. Is there much drinking at the agency among the Indians ? KIOWA AND COMANCHE EESEEVATION. 927 Chief Ishiti. I don't know. Senator Lane. What do you know, gentlemen, about "this agent? Is he satisfactory to the Indians ; and if not, why not ? Mr. Waldo (interpreting). Well, they said if he is a good man they would not be up here at all. Senator Lane. What is the trouble ? Mr. Waldo. Well, they had some trouble with him by answers, they say, roughly, and like that, which he ought to advise them in such a way in order that they may live. Senator Lane. Do they go to him for advice ? Mr. Waldo. Yes ; they go to him and ask him for information of whatever they want — why, he would not give no good answer at all. Kind of looked to them as he was in charge of soldiers, the way he was treating them. Senator Lane. I want you to tell the Indians that we are Mr. Waldo (interrupting). The agent's place was to go out amongst the Indians and see for himself just what they are doing — how they live. If he wants the Indians to be living in such a way or doing the way that he wants them to do, why doesn't he go out and advise them and not be sitting in the house at all and send farm- ers out and let them run through the Indians' country without stop- ping at any houses, but just going as far as their lines go and come right back by the office and report everything is all right? Senator Lane. Does the agent ever go out around the reservation ? Mr. Waldo. No, sir; not any time. Senator Lane. Have you ever seen him at all ? Mr. Waldo. No, sir; not any time. Senator Lane. I was going to say to you a moment ago that we are putting an amendment in the Indian bill so as to allow the Indians to have a voice in the selection of the agent after this. (The foregoing statement was interpreted to the Indians by Mr. Peowa.) Senator Lane. Now, has the agent ever visited the chief's house to see how he was getting along? Chief Ishitt (through Interpreter Peowa). No. Senator Lane. Has he ever consulted with him about how things ought to be managed for the benefit of the Indians ? Chief Ishiti. No. Senator Lane. Has he ever been to that gentleman's house there [indicating another Indian] ? Mr. Waldo. No, sir. Senator Lane. Has he ever been to any of your houses to find out how you were getting along and to advise you ? Mr. Waldo. No. Senator Lane. Have the farmers ever been to your, house to see how you were getting along and look over your ranch ? Mr. Peowa. Chief Ishiti says he never seen a farmer come to his place. Senator Lane. Has he never been to your places to consult with you — none of you ? Mr. Waldo. It is a fellow says that one of the farmers comes over to his house one time. Senator Lane. What is his name ? Mr. Waldo. Ed Cable. 928 KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. Senator Lane. How many times? Mr. Cable (through Interpreter Waldo). About five or six times. Mr. Ferguson. What did he come for? Mr. Cable. He brought applications to be signed up. Senator Lane. He did not come to consult with him? Mr. Cable. No; just brought the applications to be signed. Senator Lane. Now, does the agent or superintendent ever come to your places to see how you are getting along, whether you have plenty to eat, whether you get your crops in, whether you have plenty of clothing, and how your children are getting along? Ask them that. (The question was interpreted by Interpreters Peowa and Waldo.) Mr. Waldo. No ; not any of these people here ; no. Senator Lane. He does not apparently take any interest in any way at all then ? Mr. Waldo. No ; sir. No ; not any time. Senator Lane. It is suggested to me here that these Indians have had trouble about collecting their lease money for their allotments. Do you know anything about that, whether they have or not, whether they have been able to collect their rents or not ? Mr. Peowa. Some places they have a pretty hard time. Senator Lane. How far back does that extend? How far back have they failed to pay you your lease money ? Mr. Waldo. The agent is always reporting when Indians come to him and want to know whether this money is paid in. The agent says, No ; it is not. And it will probably be the same Indians com- ing over for the same things five or six times, and the agent answer- ing the same answers over and over. Senator Lane. That is, after the rent is due. Sometimes the rent was not collected in for a way along a year or two. This is how come the Indians don't like him in that line, which is the lease money should be collected and in the proper time. But he passed him on — went on and extend him so many day. If they don't pay the Indian, the Indian come back. The agent says, " No." He say, " You write to the party I want that money immediately." The agent says, " How can I collect? They don't got no money." Why should the agent lease to such people that are not prompt pay? That is the objection they have. Senator Lane. Do these Indians have to borrow any money ? Mr. Waldo. They have to borrow money, if they know just when they get their pay. They got so they couldn't borrow a penny from any bank. Senator Lane. How much interest do they pay ? Mr. Waldo. Twenty-five to fifty, to a dollar. Senator Lane. Twenty-five to fifty cents on a dollar? Mr. Waldo. Yes. Senator Lane. For how long a loan ? Mr. Waldo. A month. Senator Lane. Oh, I have known that to be done. I have heard that a number of times. Is that really the case ? Mr. Peowa. In some places. Senator Lane. How about goods — when you buy groceries and clothing ? KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. 929 Mr. Waldo. Double price. Well, Indians get an order to buy the groceries in a certain store. You know, the agent has got an ad- vantage of the Indians by giving orders out. They have to pay a big price. If the Indians have the money they can go anywhere they please. Senator Lane. That is what I mean. Whenever they take an order and go to get goods they have to pay extra ? Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How much extra? Mr. Ferguson. Well, it is owing to the man's conscience. Senator Lane. And it is liable to be double price? Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. That makes it very hard to get along? Mr. Ferguson. Very hard, sir. Mr. Peowa. The same way with all the implements they buy. Whenever they are going to buy a team, we will say, they ask for a certain amount, and they get authority from here — from the Indian Office. The agent turns it over to the farmer and the farmer goes to the Indian and tells him that authority is there for him to buy a team. Well, this Indian goes around and finds a team that he thinks suits him, that he likes, and gets the farmer to inspect the team. The farmer tells him that he couldn't buy the team. He goes to certain places that the farmer want the Indians to buy their teams at. Senator Lane. That is right, is it? Mr. Ferguson. That is .right. Senator Lane. Now, these Comanche Indians used to be great horsemen on the plains. They ought to be as good judges of horses as anybody. Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir; I think so. Senator Lane. They used to be. Mr. Ferguson. Now, your honor, I want to call attention to one thing which these boys here are failing to bring out, and that is this : He spoke there about having to sell a dead Indian allotment. Mow, they get authority to build them a house, to build a barn, to buy a nice team of horses, and they allow them to spend about so much money for them. Buying this span of horses, they pick out a span of fine, corn-fed horses that are worth $300 or $400, but they don't make any provision for the Indian to buy any feed. He picks them out, and in a year the three or four hundred dollar team is not worth $100, simply for the reason that they do not allow them anything to buy grain and things to take care of this team, and the farmer does not show them how. They do not understand that this horse is a different kind of animal from the little pony that can live on mesquit grass and that it must have a certain care that the native horse is not used to. They do not realize those things. There is a great loss there every year to these men on that line. Senator Lane. Is that the fact, as you understand it? Mr. Waldo. Yes. Senator Lane. I have heard it stated that the farmers sometimes make a commission or make a profit on the selling of these horses. Is there any truth in that statement? Mr. Ferguson. Not to my knowledge, sir. I don t know. Senator Lane. Thev have matrons there, too, do they? 930 KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. Mr. Ferguson. Yes ; they have matrons. Senator Lane. How many do they have? Mr. Ferguson. They have the missionaries. Senator Lane. I mean matrons. Mr. Ferguson. They are all the same. They are the only matrons they have there. . . Senator Lane. Do they look out for the Indians and advise their families and show the women how to keep house and how to live in the right way? Mr. Waldo. No, sir; they don't. Senator Lane. What do they do? Mr. Waldo. Stay at home, wherever there is a place to stay. Senator Lane. What benefit are they to the Indians? Mr. Waldo. Nothing. Senator Lane. Don't they come to your house and talk to your wife and show her about taking care of the children, one thing and another ? Mr. Waldo. No. Senator Lane. Is that true with all of you? Has the matron never been to the houses of any of these Indians to show their wives how to take care of the babies Mr. Waldo. No. Mr. Peowa. No; they never come to visit them to show them any- thing. Mr. Ferguson. I want to ask Wilbur a question here. Wilbur. I want for you to state to these gentlemen in regard to the matron that some of your folks asked to learn them how to make a cake. Senator Lane. What is that ? Mr. Ferguson. Some of his folks asked a matron to show them how to make a cake, or something like that. Tell these gentlemen what you told me. Mr. Peowa. This field matron is located near our place, and the time this happened I was not home. She came over to our place, and my aunt asked her to show her how to make a certain kind of a cake, and she refused, saying that she was not out for that kind of work. I don't know what kind of work she is doing. Of course, we are pay- ing her out of our Indian fund, and have her a buggy and, I suppose, a team. Representative Stephens. Do they act as nurses when you are sick? Mr. Peowa. No, sir. Representative Stephens. Do they look after the women in any way? Mr. Peowa. No, sir. Representative Stephens. Do they give them any advice and con- sult with them in any way that you know of? Mr. Peowa. No, sir. Senator Lane. Have you good doctors there? Mr. Peowa. I don't know nothing about the doctors. They are at the agency. Senator Lane. What do you do when you are sick? You get a physician, don't you ? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir; we get a physician from the towns we are living nearest. KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. 931 Mr. Ferguson. They hire them and pay them themselves. Senator Lane. Is there a reservation physician there? Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir; but they are 35 or 40 miles from some of these people. Senator Lane. What do they do in Cases of child birth? Don't they always have a physician to attend the women ? Mr. Ferguson. No, sir. As I understand, some have a physician, but the majority of them have midwives. Senator Lane. Indian women? Mr. Ferguson. Yes ; Indian midwives. There is another thing they are asking for. They do not want the general restrictions removed on their lands, only on certain condi- tions. They don't want general restrictions on their lands, so that they will have to pay taxes on them. They want to still hold it according to the Jerome treaty that is in the petition. Senator Lane. I am in favor of that, as far as I am concerned. Mr. Ferguson. Of course, they claim that wherever there is a man that is qualified and a competent man, and if the restrictions can be removed from a dead quarter where he can sell it and build up the other home, it is all right. But the general restrictions is what they mean ; they don't mean these isolated cases. Senator Lane. Is there any attempt being made to do that that they know of? Mr. Ferguson. In some cases I notice that some of them have the restriction removed that I don't think should be done. Some should be removed. Senator Lane. Now, in building houses for these Indians, who undertakes to do that ? The agent or superintendent ? Mr. Ferguson. They let them out by contract, sir. Senator Lane. Is that satisfactorily handled? Mr. Ferguson. I am not in a position to state. Ask them. Senator Lane. How is that? Do you get your houses built at reasonable prices and well constructed? (The question was interpreted to the Indians by Interpreters Peowa and Waldo.) Mr. Peowa. Chief Ishiti says that the houses are not very good that are built for them through contracts. Senator Lane. Did any of you ever see the agent under influence of whisky? I have been informed that he sometimes took too much fire water. Mr. Peowa. Chief Ishiti says that he never seen the agent, for the reason that he is far away from him. Senator Lane. Do any of these other gentlemen know anything about it? Mr. Peowa. No ; they say they never seen him personally, but they say they heard from another Indian that he offered him a drink. Senator Lane. Is there any whisky allowed to be carried onto the reservation ? Mr. Peowa. Mom-Sue-Quat says he don't know. Senator Lane. Do you Indians have any trouble to get a drink of fire water when you want it? Mr. Peowa. Chief Ishiti says he thinks it is hard to get. [Laugh- ter.] 932 KIOWA AND COMANCHE BESERVATION. Mr. Ferguson. I can say for these gentlemen that there is very few of these boys that indulge in anything like that. They are very temperate people. There is some of them that take a drink when they can get it, but, take them as a general rule, they are very tem- erate. I will say that much for them. If they was not, I would not be up here helping them at all. Senator Lane. There are millions of white people, you know, that will drink whisky if they can get' hold of it. Kepresentative Stephens. Is there anything else? Mr. Sloan. Have there been any instances where banks have signed bonds for the white people who have leased the Indian lands ? Mr. Peowa. Why, I was working over at the agency for a while, and while I was there when a man comes to lease a place they have a bondsman — two men to go on his bond. But in many cases — I don't know how it is, but the bondsman seems to get out of it when the fellow gets away from them. Mr. Sloan. Were any of those who signed the bond bankers in the towns around there, and the agent refused to enforce the collec- tions against them? Mr. Peowa. I don't know. Mr. Sloan. There were a great many leases that were never paid at all? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Some running back four or five years? Mr. Peowa. Some running back four or five years. Mr. Waldo. Some longer than that. Mr. Sloan. And that is one reason why the Kiowas and Co- manches are hard up? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And another thing is that the farmers and agents are partial to certain stores. That is, on the orders they give out they send them out to the stores that charge double prices? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Mr. Waldo. Sure. Mr. Sloan. And the fault of that is with the agents and farmers who handle those orders? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do any of you Indians know what your accounts are, either for annuities or rents or other moneys that the agent holds ? Mr. Peowa. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. He refuses to tell you how much money you have got there? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Is that right? Does he refuse to tell you how much money is coming to you? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Ask the chief about that. Chief Ishiti (through Interpreter Peowa). He never tells me. Mr. Sloan. If you go there and ask him how much money vou have, he refuses to tell you this? Chief Ishiti. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Would you like to have that remedied, so you would know what you have got and what belongs to you? Chief Ishiti. Yes, sir. That is what we wanted. KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. 933 Mr. Sloan. Now, then, if you men were allowed to go out and pick out your own teams and make your own bargains for them, could you do better than the farmer does? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Put that question to the rest of them. Mr. Peowa. He says he thinks they could buy a team that suit them if they pick it out. Mr. Sloan. Does the farmer down there who looks after the buy- ing of horses want you to buy from a certain man all the time— the same person? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan ._ Put that question to the rest of them. (The question was interpreted to the other Indians.) Mr. Peowa. They all said yes. Senator Lane. He just picks out the man for you to buy a team from ? Mr. Peowa. Yes. Mr. Sloan. And is that same thing true as to the farming imple- ments and other things? Mr. Ferguson. I don't think so, altogether. Of course, I am not in a position to say. I don't know. Mr. Sloan. Now, I heard it said that this money that was paid you down there by the commission was not satisfactorily paid. What was there in that that was not right to the Indian people ? Mr. Peowa. I don't quite understand you. Mr. Sloan. Mr. Ferguson said that the money that was paid down there was not satisfactory. There was an appropriation made for some money to pay the Indians down there, because they had gotten behind and had not been getting their rents. What was there about that payment that was not right ? Mr. Ferguson. It was being held up so long. Chief Ishiti (through Interpreter Peowa). The only thing they don't like about it is that it has been delayed too long. Mr. Sloan. And who delayed it? Chief Ishiti. They think it is the fault of the agent. Mr. Sloan. Now, whose fault is it that the rent moneys are not collected ? Chief Ishiti. The agent is supposed to collect the rent money, but it seems like he don't collect it. Mr. Ploan. I would like to say to the members of the commission this, that the Omaha Indians made the same complaint about their moneys held by the agent at our agency — that he refused to tell them how much was due them or give them any information regarding it at all, whether it was drawing interest, or otherwise. I took that up with the office and asked that each Indian be issued a statement or account, and they agreed to do that for the Omahas. Senator Lane.' How long ago was that? Mr. Sloan. That was yesterday. Senator Lane. Well, they ought to do that. I do not know any reason why they should not. Mr. Ferguson. Your honor, when we was coming up. of course we had a long ride on the train, and we talked this matter over; and Chief Ishiti, through the interpreter there, told me that one great objection he had to the moneys being placed in the bank was that 934 KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. none of the Indians ever knew how much money he had — could not tell whether he had any or whether he had $100, nor what per cent it was drawing interest. He was absolutely void of any way of keep- ing any record of what he had. He did not know anything about it at all. Kepresentative Stephens. He knew no more about it than a 10- year-old child. Mr. Ferguson. They have another thing in regard to those deferred payments. 1 think we can enlighten this board on that question somewhat. You must remember that down there we have had five years of drought. The men that leased these lands from the Indians were men that were poor men, and had men of their same caliber on their bonds. The men on the leases did not raise anything, nor the bondsmen did not raise anything. The consequence was they had straw bonds. They were honest all right, and they would have got- ten it had it been a crop year. In other words, the bondsmen were so crippled by the deferred crops that they were not able in some instances. I think you will find that that is perhaps the reason for the majority of these deferred payments. I am almost certain that is the reason. Mr. Sloan. Do you know of any instances in which bankers had signed bonds '( Mr. Ferguson. Xo, sir; I do not. I don't think those bankers do that. Senator Lane. Now, when it comes down to the last analysis, the Indian who owns the land suffers as well as the farmer that is on the land ? He has to stand the brunt of it ? Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir; but understand, down there they don't rent those lands crop rent; it is money rent. We don't lease any Indian quarters down there for a grain rent at all. Representative Stephens. Is it not a fact that they have had a series of droughts down there ? Mr. Ferguson. They have not had a good crop there for five years. The white man has not made it. They are all in the hole. Ninety- nine per cent of the farmers down there are mortgaged for every dollar they are worth. Senator Lane. How is it going to be this year? Mr. Ferguson. The prospects are brighter than I have seen it since 1906. Senator Lane. What season do you have to have your rain to pull your crops through ? Mr. Ferguson. In the wintertime and the spring. We had a 7-foot season this year. We thoroughly soaked down this year. If we can get the rainfall we had last summer we will have a bountiful crop. We did get a little rain last year, but there was no moisture in the ground, and it would dry from both ways. The consequence was they never raised anything last year only in the sandy countries. In the Washita country and the cattle country — that is, the sandy land above the rivers — they had a fine crop of corn and a fine crop of cotton. But out of the sandy land, in the black land where these gentlemen live, they don't have anything. Senator Lane. I don't understand that. Mr. Ferguson. Well, sir, the sand there — last year it would just blow over. KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. 935 Senator Lane. It was mulched with sand? Why can't they do that m their country ? Mr. Ferguson. I don't think it would have done any good last year, because our white farmers tried it and didn't raise anything. Senator Lane. The sand would hold the moisture ? Mr. Feeguson. The sand is the only place they raised anything. Senator Lane. How deep do you plow down there? Mr. Ferguson. Men differ. I plow about 10 inches. Some of those boys plows with a lister about 3 inches. Representative Stephens. "Who raises the best crop ? Mr. Feeguson. I do always. Another thing— what I have tried to tell these boys when they farm. "We plow about up to 11 o'clock. If we are listing we list to about 11 o'clock, then we stop and hitch to the harrow and drag that down till noon. In that way if we have got any moisture we hold it. But they have not been instructed to do anything like that. I have seen boys out there in the spring of the year — we have lots of hail out there, and I have written lots of hail insurance out there, and when I would go out I would see these Indian boys ; I would see the condition of their land, and I would give them a talk about it. They would be running the lister on the point. If they had had somebody to show them how to get it down level Senator Lane. "What is a lister ? Mr. Feeguson. That is what we call it in that country. It is a double plow, and it throws up a ridge on both side. "We have to plant in a furrow down there, you know. Then, we used what we call a " snake " or a " go-devil " down there that goes in this furrow and covers it up. Representative Stephens. Can you tell us what benefit the money is to the Indians that we are spending on these farmers or matrons, according to your understanding of the matter ? Mr. Ferguson. "Well, sir, so far as industrial farmer is concerned, and industrial matron, you are not getting anything. Representative Stephens. The Indians would be just as well off without either? Mr. Ferguson. So far as industrial farmer and the industrial matron — to learn them anything — I think you would get along just as well without them. Representative Stephens. Is it not a fact that there are white farmers pretty well mixed up with these Indians? Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir Representative Stephens. And is not that the best object lesson in the world, for the Indian to see what his white brother is doing ? Mr. Feeguson. Yes, sir; I think so. Mr. "Waldo. But they have not anything to work with. They have no tools. Mr. Ferguson. He may have a plow, you know, and maybe two little ponies. Representative Stephens. Have they harness? Mr. Feeguson. He generally has harness and a wagon all right, but in that country they need four good horses to farm with. They need four horses to pull one of those listers. If you don't plow deep you are just fooling your time away. 35601— pt 9—14 2 936 KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. Now, I went down there — the first three years I was there if I had farmed the way I farmed in Illinois I would have starved to death. I never saw a lister until I went there. I believe in plowing deep, and mulching. Now, these gentlemen own the cream of that country. They h av ® the creek bottoms and the river bottoms — subirrigated lands, all or it. It is an alfalfa land. Now, if we had a farmer there, somebody ithat would show those boys how to put out an alfalfa crop, and let >them raise stock, they will prosper on stock where they won t begin to prosper on this farming proposition. They want to raise forage, !kafir corn, milo maize, and sorghum, and then in a year or two they will be able to build a big silo. If it rains on this alfalfa they can put it in the silo, and it is never damaged a cent. Those conditions can be brought about if they will put a man there that will show these men what to do. Senator Lane. They were stockmen a long while before they were rarmers? Mr. Ferguson. They are natural stockmen. If they go to raising corn and cotton they will starve to death. Eepresentative Stephens. Would it be practicable for each one of these tribes to select a business committee to look after their business in connection with the agent? Mr. Ferguson. They have that, sir. Eepresentative Stephens. Does the agent pay any attention to the business committee? Mr. Ferguson. Not very much. Senator Lane. Ask them that. Have you a business committee there ? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir; I am a member. Senator Lane. What does that amount to? Mr. Peowa. It don't amount to anything. Senator Lane. Why? Mr. Peowa. Because he won't listen to us. Representative Stephens. How often have you gone to him? Mr. Peowa. We are supposed to meet every quarter, but he seems to have put the meeting off, postponed it, and we have not had any meeting for nearly a year. Representative Stephens How many of you compose that com- mittee ? Mr. Peowa. Well, there is five Kiowas, two Apaches, and six Comanches. Eepresentative Stephens. How often do you meet? Mr. Peowa. Well, we don't meet ourselves, but we are supposed to meet at the agency Eepresentative Stephens. Oh, I see. You consult with the agent with reference to what ought to be done with reference to each in- dividual Indian? Mr. Peowa. We are supposed to do that, but whenever we have a meeting he will tell us just what is going to be done for us, and that is about all we do in the meetings. Representative Stephens. He does not aid you or cooperate with you? Mr. Peowa. No, sir. Representative Stephens. What reason does he give for that? KIOWA ANH COMANCHE RESEKVATION. 937 Mr. Peowa. I don't know. Representative Stephens. Does he ask you to look after the Indians for him in any way, or to advise with them ? Mr. Peowa. No; he never said anything in that line. The only thing he does when we have a meeting is to just tell us what the rules are, made at the Indian office, and what is going to be done for us. That is about all I know since I was a member. Kepresentative Stephens. Does he consult with you in any way about what crops should be raised ? Mr. Peowa. He never spoke about crops or anything in that line. Kepresentative Stephens. You say you have never seen him on the reservation looking after the Indians'? Mr. Peowa. No, sir ; I have not. Representative Stephens. Where do the farmers live? Mr. Peowa. Well, they live in different parts of the reservation. There is one there at the agency. Eepresentative Stephens. Are any of these farmers raising stock or crops of their own? Mr. Peowa. No, sir. Eepresentative Stephens. What do they do? What do they live on ? Mr. Peowa. They live for the money we pay them. Representative Stephens. All this money comes out of your funds? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Then if your business committee had an opportunity, the first thing you would do would be to discharge the whole bunch? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Would you fire them ? Mr. Peowa. Yes, sir ; fire them. Mr. Sloan. I would like to ask a couple of questions. How would the Indians prefer to make the leases for their lands; make them themselves, or let the agent go ahead and do it all for them ? Chief Ishiti (through Interpreter Peowa) . I would prefer that the Indians lease it themselves. Mr. Sloan. Would they learn something about business and the ways of farming if they did that themselves ? Chief Ishiti. I think the Indians could learn more of business. Mr. Sloan. Would they be able to pick out good farmers ? Chief Ishiti. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do you think you could find men who would deal honestly with you ? Chief Ishiti. I think that if I know a man for a certain length of time, and I see that he has been doing all right, why that is the fel- low that I think I would rent my place to. Mr. Sloan. If a man beats you once would you rent it to him again ? Chief Ishiti. No. Mr. Sloan* Do you think you could make any difference as be- tween getting cash rent and crop rent ? Have you men studied that so that you could know any difference in it ? Chief Ishiti. I think we could get more out of crop rents than the cash rent. 938 KIOWA AND COMANCHE EESEEVATION. Mr. Sloan. And do you have trouble going any great distance to the agency to make your lease and get your money, when 3*011 do get it, under the present system '{ Chief Ishiti. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Would your business committee, if that might come, be able to figure on prices and credits so that they could get their food and farming implements and seed at reasonable prices? Chief Ishiti. That is what I want. Mr. Sloan. I would like to tell you gentlemen a little experience on our reservation just a few years ago. I think it is not only interest- ing, but entertaining. We had quite an old Indian, some 65 years of age. He sold 40 acres, and out of it got authority to buy a team. Then he wanted to rent his land to a certain farmer that he knew, but the agent refused, and leased it to a man who could not pay the rent. We had our rent payments there every Wednesday, so the Indian ran over every Wednesday to see about getting his rent. Once in a while he would go between times. Now, some 10 months after- wards he went and said to the agent, " I would like to have au- thority to buy another team." The agent said, " What did you do with that team you bought about a year ago ? " He says, " That team I bought out of my land-sale money ? " " Yes." " Oh," he says, '" I killed them running here to get my rent, and I haven't got it yet." [Laughter.] Mr. Ferguson. In connection with what these gentlemen have told you, I will tell you what I believe would happen. There is so many of those men down there that are incompetent ; they are not intelligent like these fellows. They will all tell you that. They are not as smart as these men are. There are some wild white men down there that take advantage of them and hand them an old revolver or an old buggy, or cow, or something, and get them to sign up a lease, and they would not get as much as if the agent handled it. Now, there is some of these men perfectly qualified to lease their lands, but I am speaking of the general run. Representative Stephens. How would it be if there were a busi- ness committee among the Indians to approve all that ? Mr. Fekgttson. That would be all right. Representative Stephens. To supervise all the other Indians, in- stead of having an agent. Mr. Sloan. Thirty years ago the Omahas and Winnebagos were as backward as these men. At that time the Omahas and the Winne- bagos were permitted to make their own leases and collect their own rents. A hail storm came along that wiped out every bit of crops that there was, and the runners, some of them, went into the timber and chopped wood for the Omaha Indians to pay their rent. Others gave a cow. Others had credit at the store, and they gave provisions. The result was that the Indians and white people divided up their misfortunes, and I know the Indians and white men were brought closer together through the doing of that, and that experience in business and charity and good will did them more good than anything else that has occurred. And I believe that if the Indian is permitted to exercise the ability he has he will be better for it. Mr. Bentley. If you will give the Indians the benefit of just a little further legislation along that line, permitting the Indian to lease his land for a period of one year, without any restriction from KIOWA AND COMANCHE BESEEVATION. 939 year to year, providing by statute that the lease received by him shall be in keeping with the custom of the country, then if some man rents a quarter section of land of him for $25, or for a horse and buggy, it becomes the duty of the United States attorney down there to see that he is properly paid. In the bill I have been advocating we pro- vide that in all cases the result received by him must conform to the literal thing. I believe you can throw absolute protection around him in that regard. Representative Stephens. That is the same bill I introduced last Congress. Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. I want to say this further : These men are my neighbors, in a way. They are as notoriously temperate as In- dians are generally intemperate, and I believe, gentlemen, that they are as fine a group of native people as there is on this Continent. I know many of the young men among them, and I feel that their lack of progress is due to the Government and not to them. No kind of people could succeed under the kind of agent these men have. He may be honest ; he may be all right, but God Almighty never intended him for an Indian agent. He is a man of military bearing. He is the last person in the world that should ever have charge of the In- dians. Instead of going among them, and instead of his relations be- ing cordial, he is distant; he has no sympathy for them. I don't think he has any use for them. He sits there in his military dignity, and the Indian can live or die. If you will give these people their farms, if you will permit them to lease their land if they want to, they will accumulate stock, and a relationship will exist of this kind : If there is a failure and the crop is lost, the Indian and his tenant go down together. If it is a bounti- ful year the harvest is big, they enjoy the reward of the land together, and it makes a community of feeling that is good. And it is in the interest of these Indians that you give them an agent who is in sympathy with them. Then give him some farmers to assist him, and give him the right kind of help, and these men will do something. Again, I want to call attention to this fact. They have more than $4,000,000 here in the Treasury of the United States ; yet if they want to buy anything they must pay two prices. I believe the first duty of the Government is to give them an agent that is qualified to handle them ; then give them the use of their own money to equip themselves; let them go ahead, and they will take care of themselves. Eepresentative Stephens. You know the reason why the Indians should not be permitted to select the matrons and the farmers as well as a superintendent? Mr. Bentley. None in the world. And if you will do it, I will guarantee to you that there won't be any matrons among them who will refuse to show a woman how to make a cake. There is many a farm woman in that country who would be delighted. She is in- terested in them, and they are interested in her. And the same thing is true of the farmers. If you will permit them to select their own farmers you will never see a bad one down there. Eepresentative Stephens. With reference to a business committee, why should they not, in addition to taking care of their own lands, etc., be permitted to take care of the land of the Indians whose re- strictions have not been removed ? 940 KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. Mr. Bentley. There is no reason in the world, except this : The business committee as now permitted and recognized by the Indian Department, is the agent's committee, selected by him. You let the Indian tribe select their own committee out there, free from the domi- nation of the agent, and then you make the leases subject always to the ratification of the business committee, and it is my opinion that you will find leasing conditions will improve. In other words, give the Indian that liberty of action and that inspiration that have led us to accomplish what we have, and he may do something. But, with his hands tied, forever dependent, he would be the most remark- able man on earth if he succeeded. He would be superior to any other known breed or kind of men if he succeeded under such condtions. I think he should be given all those things. Mrs. Kellogg. The idea that every one of these people is advocat- ing is contained in that measure I am proposing. Give the Indians their money to do something with; let these men, through their business organizations, among themselves, learn how to handle those things, and, by actual doing learn what precautions to take in the future. Representative Stephens. Your tribe desires that, as well as these Indians ? Mrs. Kellogg. I have approached quite a number of tribes in the United States and put to them this idea : How would you like to be an organization by yourselves, and have a certain per cent of your money held out for you to use among yourselves, for you to make reports upon, for you to be instructed how to use every penny of this money and make reports to the Secretary of the Interior? And there is not one that does not jump at the idea. Mr. Ferguson. In regard to these appointments, you must under- stand that that is all under the civil service. That would have, to be reorganized. There is the great secret about this civil-service proposition — getting what we call a real farmer, a practical farmer. He has got to be a schoolmaster and a college graduate almost to pass the civil-service examination, and if he is smart enough to do that he Avon't go out and farm. Senator Lane. You came here with these Indians? Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. As a friend ? Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And you paid your own expenses ? Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir. Senator Lane (to interpreters Peowa and Waldo). I want you to say to the chief and all these Indians that this commission has been investigating the conditions of the Indians all over the United States, and will continue to do so for quite a little while, and we find this same condition to exist among all of the Indians. The only Indians that we know of that are doing real well are the Navajos, out in the desert, on the plateau, running sheep with no white men over them much to bother them. And we are going to try to get this thing arranged so that the Indians can have a chance to use their own property for their benefit and have a voice in the way things are going to be done. And that is going to come. (The foregoing statement was interpreted to the Indians by In- terpreters Peowa and Waldo.) KIOWA AND COMANCHE EESBEVATION. 941> Senator Lane. Tell the chief that 25 or 30 years ago this man here— Judge Stephens— who is a Member of Congress from Texas, U£ tA° £ one . of the Texas rangers, and he fought with the chief, and the first time he comes down on the reservation you ought to scalp him. [Laughter.] Eepresentative Stephens. I would like to ask Charley Buffalo, How long have you had trouble with your eyes? Ask him that question. Charley Buffalo (through Interpreter Waldo) . Seven years. Eepresentative Stephens. Can you see ? Charley Buffalo. Yesj I can see a little, but light hurts my eyes. Eepresentative Stephens. Has any physician ever attended to his eyes? Has he ever had any physician to look after it— the agency doctor or any other ? Charley Buffalo. There is one doctor out there who treated me. Mr. Ferguson. Was he employed by the Government ? Charley Buffalo. No. Eepresentative Stephens. Ask him if he has ever gone to the agency doctor and asked for medicine. Charley Buffalo. Yes; I did come to him one time, but he gave me eyewater, and that is about all he did to me. Eepresentative Stephens. Ask him why he does not go back to him and have his eyes treated? Charley Buffalo. I wanted to go, but did not have time. Eepresentative Stephens. Ask him how many Indians have sore eyes like he has. Charley Buffalo. Not very many. Eepresentative Stephens. Ask him if he has been in Mr. Sells's office down there. Has he been among the physicians of the Com- missioner's office in this city? Has anyone there asked him about his eyes? Charley Buffalo. Yes. Eepresentative Stephens. Did they give any medicine or treat him in any way? Charley Buffalo. No ; they didn't give no medicine. Senator Lane. There was a measure came up last year in which they wanted to sell every other allotment belonging to the Indians. Do you want that done ? Ask the chief. Chief Ishiti (through Interpreter Peowa). They want to keep all their land. Senator Lane. Good. Tell him that is right. Mr. Bentley. May I ask the chief one question? I want to ask him if he knows that the man whom he fought with in Texas, who has been asking the questions, is the man who made the great sum of money for him that is in the Treasury now. Chief Ishiti (through Interpreter Peowa). I am glad that he done that for me. Mr. Bentley. Where you would have got less than a million dol- lars, by the fight he made for you you got about $6,000,000. The proposition was that the lands were to be sold at an arbitrary price. Judge Stephens got the law changed so it would be sold to the high- est and best bidders. Senator Lane. He deserves their gratitude. Tell him he need not scalp him when he goes back. [Laughter.] 942 KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. Mr. Bentley. I -want him to know that he has fallen among friends here. (The foregoing statements were interpreted to the Indians by In- terpreters Peowa and Waldo.) Mr. Sloan. Charley Buffalo, how often have you been over to the Indian Office where the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the assistants are? Charley Buffalo (through Interpreter Waldo). Not very often. Mr. Sloan. More than once? Charley Buffalo. Second time. Mr. Sloan. Did you stay there two or three hours one of the times you were over there ? Charley Buffalo. Not that long. Mr. Sloan. An hour, was it ? Charley Buffalo. An hour — something like that. Mr. Sloan. Who was it spoke to you, if anybody, about your eyes ? Charley Buffalo. The commissioner asked me about it. Mr. Sloan. Commissioner Sells? Charley Buffalo. Commissioner Sells. Mr. Sloan. What did he say to you? Charley Buffalo. He didn't say much to me. He only asked me what the trouble was. Mr. Sloan. Did he call in any of the doctors of the Indian Office to look at your eyes? Charley Buffalo. No. Mr. Sloan. Did any one of the Indian Office doctors come around and see you about your eyes ? Charley Buffalo. No. Mr. Sloan. How long have you been in the city ? Charley Buffalo. A week and a half. Mr. Sloan. And you are of the delegates from your tribe ? Charley Buffalo. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Have you authority from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to come here for tribal business ? Charley Buffalo. No. Mr. Sloan. The commissioner sent you permission to come here? Mr. Waldo. He didn't send for us to come up. Mr. Sloan. He was willing that you should come? Mr. Waldo. He was willing; yes. Mr. Sloan. That means authority? Mr. Waldo. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Has anybody done anything for your eyes since you have been in the city here ? Charley Buffalo. No. Mr. Sloan. Have you seen some of the Indian Office officials every day since you have been here? Charley Buffalo. No. Mr. Sloan. Does he understand my question? Did he see some of the Indian Office people every day ? Mr. Waldo. No ; not every day. Mr. Sloan. Every other day? Mr. Waldo. Every other day — about every two days. (Thereupon, at 9.35 o'clock p. m., the joint commission adjourned to meet at the call of the chairman.) KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESEKVATION. 943 House of Representatives, Committee on Indian Ajtairs, Hon. J. T. Robinson, Washington, March 20, 1911,. Chairman Joint Investigating Commission. nJS^^ : n Us W i U i nt i'. oduce y° u to Mr. Ferguson, of Oklahoma, also Ishiti, * ?£ n ^ v^ T^ ch 1 IniLans m Oklahoma, and other Indians,' one a graduate « • ,«? S e ^I 1001, wh0 have called UDM1 m e. and from what they say, I think they should be heard by our commission and their evidence or statements taken down as it will be beneficial to us in going over matters pertaining to their tribes in Oklahoma. Very truly, yours, Jno. H. Stephens. „ TT „ Washington, D. C, March 21, 191 'i. Hon. John H. Stephens, Bouse of Representatives, Washington, D. C. My Dear Sir : I am inclosing you a copy of petition of the Kiowa and Coman- che Indians, also affidavits of charges preferred against their agent. The originals are filed with Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs. As we will not be able to meet with the Joint Committee of Indian Affairs, we are leaving to-night for home. Any further information you may desire on this subject, please write me at my address. Respectfully, yours, W. S. Fergusox, Mountain View, Okla. Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Our Dear Friend : We, the undersigned members of the Kiowa, Comanche, , and Apache Tribes, in Oklahoma, hereby submit to you our petition in regard to some of the affairs of our tribes, which represents the opinion of the major- ity of our members, and respectfully ask your help and assistance, so that those things which we believe are for our best interests may become effective. First. In regard to our tribal and rental moneys, will say that in the past four years payments have been made at very irregular periods. When a payment is made we try as well as we are able to pay our debts and make the balance of our money go as far as we can ; but when payments are seven, or even eight, months apart it is impossible for us to live, pay our debts, and get along. We have learned with a good deal of interest of the system used at the Osage Agency with the Osage Indians. We understand that the Osages receive their money quarterly, and are paid promptly. If this is done at the Osage Agency, we ask that the same system may be put into effect at the Kiowa Agency. We believe, if our payments could be thus arranged and made promptly on stated dates, that it will be for our best interests. Second. In the past it has been the practice to withhold from the rental moneys the payments to minor children. This is not just to us, for many of the minor children have families of their own, and it costs as much to sup- port the minor children as it does the adults; so, if the minor's money is not paid to them or their parents, the minors must of necessity live off of their more fortunate friends or relatives. We therefore request that all moneys, both annuity and lease, be paid direct to the parents, or to the minors, if married. Third. We ask that the payments be made at the pay stations, as was done from the time we came under our first agent until about three years ago. We lose no more time from home under the old system than under the new one of delivering the checks at each person's home. By the old system we can find why certain moneys are not paid, while under the present system, if we believe any mistake has been made or we fail to understand something about the payment, we have to make the trip to the agency to find out about the matter, at additional cost and expense. Fourth. Resolved, That we are not in favor of raising restrictions on our land until the 25 years have elapsed, as per agreement in Article V of Jerome treaty. 944 KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. Fifth. We ask that where Government positions on our reservations are filled by Indians, that they be filled by members of our tribes. Sixth. We regret, that our present agent, Ernest Stecker, who has been at the head of our agency for about six years, has failed in nearly every way to show the interest in our welfare which his position demands. Favoritism to a. few Indians at the expense of a majority, intimidation when our ideas fail to suit him, failure to protect the rights of the Indians in leasing their lands, his military bearing toward us makes us at all times afraid to approach him on affairs material to us, his many unfulfilled promises cause us to distrust him. We believe if an agent could be sent us whom we could trust and respect, that many of our complaints would cease to exist. Seventh. We believe if a thorough and impartial investigation of existing affairs was made, and proper action taken thereon, the result would be bene- ficial to the Indians and the whole service. Eighth. Payments on the sale of lands in the big pasture have been ex- tended from time to time. We ask that these deferred payments be collected as soon as possible. Lawton, Okxa., March H, 19H. State or Oklahoma, Comanche County, ss: William Ifulbright, first being duly sworn, deposes and says that he is a resi- dent and taxpayer of the city of Lawton, Okla. That he knows Ernest Stecker, who is superintendent of the Kiowa Agency in Oklahoma. Further deposing, the affiant avers that on or about the 26th day of January, 1912, I was at the chamber of commerce rooms in the city of Lawton, Okla., when Ernest Stecker was present and made certain statements about the adjust- ment of Indian indebtedness. At this same time and place the said Ernest Stecker was intoxicated and much under the influence of liquor. My reasons for so stating are that he could not stand erect while talking, but needed contin- ually to support himself on a table while addressing the audience, and his voice was stuffed and it was difficult for his hearers to hear him. However by re- peated questioning he finally made himself clear. The affiant remarked to others who were near that Stecker was " pretty badly shot," to which they readily assented. , Further deposing, the affiant states that the said Stecker is generally reputed in this locality to be given to the excessive use of alcoholic liquors. (Signed) Wi. Fulbright. Subscribed and sv»orn to before me, a notary public in and for Comanche County, Okla., this 14th day of March, 1914. (Signed) R. B. Morfoed, Notary Public. (My commission expires August 23, 1915.) Copy original filed with Commissioner of Indian Affairs. State of Oklahoma, County of Caddo, ss: O. M. Topley, being first duly sworn upon his oath, says he is 47 years of age and a resident of Anadarko, Okla. ; that he is well acquainted with Ernest Stecker, superintendent of the Kiowa Indian Agency, at Anadarko, Okla. ; that during a session of the Federal court at Lawton, Okla., in October, 1913, the said Stecker was, to the personal knowledge of affiant, a frequent visitor to a dive in the basement of the Midland Hotel, at Lawton, Okla., and there frequently purchased and drank intoxicating liquors in company with others, one of whom was M. Bristow, of Anadarko, Okla., an attorney at law. Further affiant saith not. (Signed) O. M. Topley. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 14th day of March, 1914. (Signed) L. M. Gilbert, Notary Public. (My commission expires Nov. 5, 1914.) Copy original filed with Commissioner of Indian Affairs. KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. 945 Lawton, Okla., March lit, 1311,. State op Oklahoma, Comanche County, ss: W. H. Dry Bread, first being duly sworn, deposes and says that he is a resi- dent and taxpayer of Lawton, Okla. That he knows Ernest Stecker, who is superintendent of Kiowa Agency Okla -■^o J? er denosin S th e affiant avers that on or about the 26th day of January, 1912, the said Stecker was in the chamber of commerce rooms in the city of Lawton, Okla, when the said Stecker proposed to the business men of this locality that if they would not press their obligations against the Indians under his supervision that he had funds enough and authority enough to pay all the legitimate debts of the Indians by July, 1912, and in any case not later than the end of the year 1912. The business men accepted his proposition at this meeting and organized the Indian Creditor's Association at that time and place and did their part to cooperate with the said Stecker. Further deposing, the affiant says that at the time and place when the said Stecker made this promise to the creditors of the Indians he was in a drunken condition, as was shown by his staggering and unsteady condition; his manner of speech and continual hawking and spitting is further evidence to me that he was intoxicated and he showed other signs of drunkenness, which I, myself, have been subject to in the past when I used intoxicating liquors to excess. Further deposing, the affiant says that the said Stecker is generally reputed, in this locality, to be given to the excessive use of alcoholic liquors, and an in- vestigation along these lines I believe will show that many people of this com- munity will testify to the fact that the said Stecker is often in a drunken and unfit condition while attempting to perform his duties. (Signed) W. H. Dry Bbead. Subscribed and sworn to before me, a notary public in and for Comanche County, Okla., this 14th day of March, 1914. Wm, Fullbbight, Notary Public. (My commission expires January 22, 1917.) Copy. Original filed with Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Lawton, Okla., March l) t , 191!,. State of Oklahoma, County of Comanche, tsx: A. D. Lawrence, first being duly sworn, deposes and says, that he is a resi- dent and taxpayer of Lawton, Okla. ; that he knows Ernest Stecker, who was superintendent of the Kiowa Agency in Oklahoma. Further deposing, the affiant avers that on or about the 20th day of January, 1912, the said Ernest Stecker at his own request caused a meeting to be called of the business men of this country in the Chamber of Commerce rooms in the city of Lawton, Okla., for the purpose of securing the consent of the various creditors of the Indians under his charge, to an extension of their debts with the said Indians, and at that time and place he did voluntarily offer and promise the business men of this country, that if they would not press the Indians for their obligations that he (Stecker) had funds enough, and authority enough to pay all legitimate debts of said Indians by the 1st of the following July, but in no event would the settlement of said debts be deferred longer than to the end of the year 1912. Under this agreement and promise the creditors formed what was known as the Indian Creditor's Association and attempted to cooperate with the said Stecker in all things which he had promised. Further deposing, the affiant says that at the time and place when the said Ernest Stecker made said promises he was in a drunken condition as was evidenced by his staggering and unsteady condition ; his manner of speech and continual hawking and spitting were further evidenced to the affiant that he was intoxicated. Further deposing, the affiant says, that from his acquaintance with, knowledge, and observation of said Stecker, covering a period of some six years, he believes is informed, and therefore avers that said Stecker is not a fit or proper person to be superintendent of said Kiowa Agency; that his habits, temper, temperament, and character are such as to especially disqualify him 946 KIOWA AND COMANCHE RESERVATION. for the Indian Service, and are of evil example to the members of the India" tribes under his supervision, and such is the general opinion of the people at large In this vicinity; that the said Stecker is generally reputed to be given to the excessive use of alcoholic liquors, and that divers complaints and charges, covering his unfitness as such superintendent, have been heretofore filed with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and that Special Indian Agent P. N. Wadsworth, deputed to investigate said charges in the spring of 1910, reported to the affiant that said Stecker was not a fit person to hold the office of said superintendency and the deponent is informed and believes, and there- fore avers, that said Wadsworth so reported to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, as will undoubtedly appear from the files and records of the Indian Office. (Signed) A. D. Lawrence. Subscribed and sworn to before me a notary public in and for Comanche County, Oklahoma, this 14th day of March, 1914. (Signed) Wm. Fullbbight, Notary Public. (My commission expires Jan. 22, 1917.) Copy. Original filed with Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Lawton, Okla., March H, 1914- State of Oklahoma, Comanche County, ss: Wayne White Wolf (Cho sic wa), Comanche No. 156, first being duly sworn, deposes and says that he is a Comanche Indian under the supervision of Ernest Stecker, superintendent of Kiowa Agency in Oklahoma. Further deposing, he states that when Walter Silcott was subagent at Fort Sill subagency that he was one of the police under Silcott. On one of the visits of said Stecker to this subagency the affiant took the said Stecker from the subagency to the railroad station, and at this time the said Stecker was under the influence of liquor and took from his pocket a quart bottle of whisky and offered the affiant a drink. The affiant then told the said Stecker that he did not drink whisky. Further deposing, the affiiant says that about six months after the above occurrence he again took the said Stecker from the subagency to the railroad station, and on this occasion also the said Stecker was in a drunken and in- toxicated condition, his breath smelling of liquor, his eyes were red, and his other actions caused me to know that he was drunk. On this occasion also he offered me a drink of whisky from a quart bottle which he drew from his pocket. (Signed) Wayne White Wolf (Cho sic wa). (Comanche No. 156.) Subscribed and sworn to before me, a notary public in and for Comanche County, Okla., this 14th day of March, 1914. (Signed) Wm. Fullbbight, Notary Public. (My commission expires 22d of January, 1917.) Copy of original filed with Commissioner of Indian Affairs. State of Oklahoma, County of Caddo, ss: O. M. Topley, being first duly sworn, upon his oath says that he is 47 years of age, and a resident of Anadarko, Okla. ; that he is personally acquainted with Ernest Stecker, superintendent of the Kiowa Indian Agency, at Anadarko, Okla., and has known the said Ernest Stecker since January, 1908. Affiant further states that on the day of , 1913, affiant was engaged in litigation in the county court of Caddo County, Okla., in a certain case wherein J. W. Johnson was plaintiff, and affiant was the defendant, and various Indians were garnishees, and the Anadarko State Bank was interpleader ; that at the conclusion of said trial, while a large number of persons were still present in the court room and offices adjacent, the said Ernest Stecker became abusive and vile in his language, finally calling affiant a " liar " ; that the said Ernest Stecker used oaths, and was loud and boisterous in his conduct; that the language and manner of the said Ernest Stecker was heard and observed by KIOWA AND COMANCHE EESEEVATION. 947 various persons, among them being Hon. C. Ross Humbe, county judge; Hon. Guy R. Gillett, clerk of the county court; Mi^s Linnie B. Biles, stenographer to the court ; Hon. L. E. McKnight ; Elmer E. Gish ; and Hon. Spencer Hilton, clerk at the said Kiowa Agency ; and also numerous Indians, wards of the Government; that at that time the said Ernest Stecker was intoxicated and unfit to appear in a court of justice ; that his conduct was unwarranted and inexcusable, and was without provocation. Affi ant further states that he knows of his own knowledge that the Said Ernest Stecker is a habitual user of intoxicants. Further affiant saith not. (Signed) O. M. Topley. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 14th day of March, 1914. (Signed) L. M. Gilbert, "Notary Public. (My commission expires November 5, 1914.) Copy of original filed with Commissioner of Indian Affairs. X OMAHA INDIAN RESERVATION ft SERIAL ONE / HEARINGS BEFORE THE JOINT COMMISSION OF THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES SIXTY-THIKD CONGRESS SECOND SESSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS MARCH 18, 1914 PART 10 Printed for the use of the Joint Commission rn TO A" J. WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OEFIOE 1914 r 93 pi. ft) Congress of the United States. JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS. Senators : Representatives : JOB T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas. HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma. CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota. R. B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary. Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk. n OMAHA INDIAN RESERVATION". WEDNESDAY, MARCH 18, 1914. Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, Washington, D. G. _ The commission met at 8 o'clock p. m., with Senator Lane (presid- ing) and Representative Stephens present. TESTIMONY OF HIRAM CHASE. Hiram Chase, being duly sworn by the acting chairman, was ex- amined and testified as follows : Senator Lane (presiding). You said in the committee room that you had something that you wanted to present to this commission. I do not know what it was. I told you to come over and let us hear it. Mr. Chase. We have grievances. We get no satisfaction before the Interior Department. Senator Lane. Where is the agency? Mr. Chase. The country where we live is in Thurston County, on the west banks of the Missouri River, about 87 miles north of Omaha, and about 35 miles south of Sioux City. Senator Lane. In Nebraska? Mr. Chase. In Nebraska. Representative Stephens. What- tribe do you belong to? Mr. Chase. The Omahas. Representative Stephens. How many of those Indians are there? Mr. Chase. About 1,250. Representative Stephens. What is the size of the reservation? Mr. Chase. The reservation has been reduced in area to about 24 by 18 miles. Representative Stephens. What is your agency, at what place? Mr. Chase. They call it a " mission." The original proper name is " Omaha Agency." Representaive Stephens. What is the superintendent's name? Mr. Chase. The superintendent's name is John Spear. Representative Stephens. Is he also the agent? Mr. Chase. He is acting in the capacity of an Indian agent. We call him the " superintendent." Representative Stephens. Have you a school there? Mr. Chase. No school.— no tribal school, as we used to have. That has been done away with. Representative Stephens. How many farmers have you there- paid farmers by the Government? 949 950 OMAHA INDIAN EESEKVATION. Mr. Chase. We have two, I think. Representative Stephens. How many farms have you on the res- ervation — Government farms and experimental farms ? Mr. Chase. Just one. , Representative Stephens. It takes two superintendents tor one farm ? Mr. Chase. They have work in different parts of the reservation, as I understand it. , „ Representative Stephens. They look after the Indians iarms, then? Mr. Chase. They are supposed to. Representative Stephens. Why do you say " supposed ( Do they work at the job very much? Mr. Chase. I do not see them around teaching the Indians, which is the purpose for which they were appointed. Senator Lane. How are the Indians, pretty good farmers? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; they are good farmers. Senator Lane. And make a success of it? Mr. Chase. Many of them do. Senator Lane. How many school children are there, and do they go to public schools? Mr. Chase. They go to public schools, and many of the children are sent away to school at Carlisle and to Haskell and the other Government institutions. The youngest ones remain at home and attend the district schools. Senator Lane. Are the Indians increasing in population ? Mr. Chase. The Omahas are, I believe, on the increase. The cen- sus has been stationary for the last 25 years, anyway. Senator Lane. Have you much tuberculosis? Mr. Chase. We have some. Senator Lane. More than the white people do ? Mr. Chase. I could not say. Senator Lane. Have you much trachoma — sore eyes ? Mr. Chase. Some of them are affected ; the older ones. Senator Lane. Go ahead. Mr. Chase. Senators, the original reservation contained about 300,000 acres and was established for the tribe under a treaty of 1854. It is an agricultural country. We raise all kinds of grain; good stock country ; well watered and plenty of timber along the streams and over next to the river. The rougher part of our land is lying in a strip, say, about 2\ or 3 miles west from the west banks of the river. The agency is situated 3 miles from the river. This reserva- tion was occupied — in 1865 a treaty was made with the Government and on behalf of the Winnebago Tribe of Indians of Wisconsin, who were moved there, and under that treaty the Winnebagos were given the northern portion, a strip on the northern portion of the reserva- tion, something like 125,000 or it might be 100,000 acres that was given to the Winnebagos. Up till 1880 or 1881 or 1882 the Omahas were progressive in the way of agriculture and self-supporting, and, strange to say, when the annuity moneys due them under the treaty were reduced to a per capita of about $3 per head annually each of the prominent farmers had horses and some of them had stock, cattle, and hogs; and they were living and supporting them by their own exertions. An agitation followed, and the Poncas were practically OMAHA INDIAN BESEEVATION. 951 driven from their northern homes in the northern part of Nebraska and inveigled into some arrangement with the Government by which they were transferred to the Indian Territory, and some of them, after many of them were reduced through sickness, returned back to their old homes in Nebraska, and on their way they visited the Omahas. I am telling this to show this commission why it was that this agitation came about. The Poncas were arrested under an order of the Secretary of the Interior, supported by the military, and the chiefs were arrested and held as prisoners by the military at the city of Omaha. Mr. Sloan. Old Fort Omaha? Mr. Chase. Old Fort Omaha, and it seemed that friends were active on their behalf, and they employed Benton & Webster, the ablest attorneys living then in Omaha, and under writ of habeas corpus they applied to Judge Dundy, and Judge Dundy declared that the Indian was a person under the Constitution, and the mili- tary and the Secretary did not have any authority by their own orders to arrest Indians, and he released them. Great interest was manifested in this case by eastern people, and Mr. Standing Bear and his crowd were paraded through the public in the East, and got up a sentiment, and the sentiment was that the Indians should be given the rights the same as any- American citizen, and that they should not be molested in their person or property or anything else; that they should stand before the law the same as any white men. Under that agitation Senator Dawes, of Massachusetts, was en- listed in sympathy with the measure of making the Indians citizens and giving them allotments as a solution of the Indian problem, and the Omahas were placed in the vanguard, as it were, in reference to this new system, and a bill was passed in 1882. After certain people had been among our people agitating the matter and before our people, and our bill of August 7, 1882, was passed, up to this period, Mr. Senators, I want it distinctly understood that lawyers of note in the State of Nebraska, having examined this treaty of 1854, say that the Government has no title or interest whatever in our reserva- tion; that the treaty of 1854 confirmed unto the Omaha the title to these lands and they were the permanent owners of these lands. This act of 1882 was an agreement between the United States Gov- ernment and our tribe, as a political body, to allot these lands in this way — 160 acres to each head of the families, 80 acres to a single per- son, 80 acres to orphan children, and 40 acres to minors. In this bill it was also provided to sell the western portion of the reservation, lying west of what is now the Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha Eailroad, and that land was sold at the highest appraised value, which was about $13 an acre, and netted the Omahas some- thing like $500,000. That land was sold, and in the provisions of this act of 1882 there was a provision there that this money should be held in trust and in the Treasury of the United States, and 5 per cent per annum was to be paid under the direction of the Secretary of Interior for the benefit of these Indians. This act has a limita- tion affixed to it that these lands alloted to those Indians would be held in trust for the period of 25 years and no more. This act of 1882, if the Senators will examine it, is nothing more than a solemn agreement on the part of the Government of the United States to carry out its provisions. 952 OMAHA INDIAN BESEKVATION. Representative Stephens. That treaty expired in 1907—25 years after 1882 ? Air. Chase. The allotment was completed in lss-t. Representative Stephens. In 1909 — it was after the allotment, then, and not after the passage of the act that the 25 years begun? Mr. Sloan. The period runs from the day of the patent. Mr. Chase. From the date of the patents ; yes. The Senators will understand that there is no provision in this act for any modification, any power vested in the Government of the United States to extend this trust, It was a scheme for the winding up of the Omaha In- dian affairs, breaking up and destroying their tribal government, meting to each individual his home, with the right of self-govern- ment, with the right of maintaining himself, with the right the same as any other citizens, I should say, cutting away from his old tribal government, with the idea — and Senators will also understand that that act of 1882, the question as to whether the Indians would ever become competent to handle their own affairs and shift for them- selves, was fixed at the limit of 25 years, with no power of revoca- tion. Representative Stephens. Has there been any change in that in any way? Mr. Chase. I am coming to that, Senator. In 1909 our people, as a body, desired an extension of that 25 years, and what did Congress do? They passed a law by which they gave the President of the United States discretionary power in the matter, and under that extension of 10 years, giving the President authority to extend the trust 20 years longer. The authorities here, at the Secretary's Office, and the Indian Office, made up a scheme Avhereby our people were dealt with unfairly. They were segregated into three classes. One class was denominated as competent, another as a second class, an- other as a third class. Those that were declared competent in the first class were given their patents, and under the provisions of the act of 1882 were not given the privilege of extension. As it were, the extension was granted to the second and third classes. There is a discrimination there, Mr. Senators, and I understand that class legislation of any description, even by the Congress itself, is uncon- stitutional, and why should an executive officer classify our people in the three classes and not treat us alike ? Representative Stephens. Did they do that by virtue of the act of 1909? Mr. Chase. 1909 or 1910 ; I do not know which. Mr. Sloan. By rules and regulations of the Interior Department? Mr. Chase. Rules and regulations of the Interior Department. Representative Stephens. The act permitted rules and regulations to be made ? Mi'. Chase. Xo. Representative Stephens. That would be an act of legislation by an executive of the Government ? Mr. Chase. It looks like it very much. Representative Stephens. Under the Constitution it would not be permissible. Mr. Chase. Xow, Mr. Senators, it happens thus: The second and third classes are people that are being held up by the department in violation of the original act of 1882. I do not care if Congress did OMAHA INDIAN RESERVATION. 953 extend the time, there was no power of revocation, no power of ex- tending the trust. The limitation was fixed, and if Congress can give the President the authority to extend the trust one hour, it can extend it for a thousand years. Representative Stephens. Have you ever brought the matter be- fore the courts? Have you ever brought a suit? Mr. Chase. Not yet; we want relief from the law-making power. Eepresentative Stephens. Let me suggest that you could do this very legitimately. The department buys the land and takes pos- session of it, and then let the Government bring a suit to dis- possess, and you could very quickly bring the matter before the courts. It seems to me that is your remedy — before the courts and not Congress. Of course, the act that you complain of could be set aside. Whether you want to do that, is the question. You can repeal the act that you speak of — 1909 — and that would restore the patents, but do you want to do that ? Mr. Chase. Restore the patents ? Representative Stephens. Restore the 25 years and would set aside the Executive order that you complain of or rules and regulations that you complain of. Mr. Chase. That is what I am contending. That is the condition as it is now that this act extending the time is unconstitutional, and the Secretary assumed to himself the power to declare me competent and the power to declare my brother, Omaha, an incompetent is going into the powers of a judicial character. We were to be given the rights of citizenship; were to be given this allotment; and no power of government, so far as our rights were concerned, was to be administered except by the local authorities. Representative Stephens. I agree with your contention along that line. I believe you are a lawyer, are you not ? Mr. Chase. I think this, I think a good deal of our fault, Mr. Senator, is through legislation that has been thrust upon our people without or consent and without due consideration even on the part of Congress itself. Representative Stephens. I understood you to say a while ago that the Omahas themselves asked that this law be passed in 1909? Mr. Chase. It was done through a petition. The Indians, instead of being gathered together in council and applying for this, and ask- ing for a modification under the character of a tribe, some people that were interesting in extending this time went from house to house and got a petition, and that is not the way to deal with this matter. The way to deal with this matter of modification or exten- sion of trust should have been with the Indians in council. Representative Stephens. Is there some old law, some act of Con- gress or regulation by the department, which requires it to be done in that way by the council ? Mr. Chase. No; but so far as our internal affairs are concerned and our matters are concerned, when we come to deal with the Gov- ernment upon any arrangement we want them to carry out, we must; be represented in council, we must on one side agree to it and the Government on the other. Representative Stephens. Then, there was no agreement of that kind? 954 OMAHA INDIAN RESERVATION. Mr. Chase. There was no agreement of that kind when this exten- sion was made. So the extension was made, Senators, and I contend that if they were to extend the trust at all they should have treated each one of us equally, and instead of giving the Secretary of the Interior power to do as he pleased with our people in segregating them, the extension should have been made with the proviso that any Indian who called for his patent could have it. That is what ought to have been done, and that is the situation as it is now. This act of 1882 is being violated right now by the Interior Department holding up our people into these three classes. Their moneys are held up. The men the Government, impliedly at least, agreed should be free should be free from control of the department. Their property is being held up. They can not use it ; they can only get $10 a month out of this fund, and our people, Mr. Senators, say that the evils that are befalling them as they now are can not be any worse ; that the patents and individual moneys tied up in the banks be given to them and they make out their own destinies. Representative Stephens. Do you think if the patents were given to them and they were permitted to sell the lands that they would soon dispose of them and dispose of the proceeds ? Mr. Chase. There will be many of them, Senators, no matter how you fix it. Representative Stephens. And they would go back on the Gov- ernment ? Mr. Chase. The Government, so far as we are concerned, never has lost a cent. Every cent that we own to-day is money that our ances- tors secured for us by our properties. What the Government should have done — they have made a mistake in thrusting upon our people this idea of citizenship when they were not ready for it. Representative Stephens. That act of 1882, then, was a mistake? Mr. Chase. It was a big mistake, and if I knew then what I know now I would have been one of them that would have been fighting against it. Representative Stephens. Then you are in favor of the repeal of the act of 1890 or 1909 ? Did you sign that petition ? Mr. Chase. I do not know whether I did or not, and it makes no difference. Representative Stephens. You said you made a mistake then, didn't you ? Mr. Chase. I did ; but if my own people were to get an extension of that trust, I claim that we ought to have the extension as a people, not giving the Secretary of the Interior power to segregate our people into three parts. That is my contention. And my idea, Senator, is this, that the big mistake of the Government — it is no use to dwell upon it. They should have been kept on the reservation, on a terri- tory of their own, to work out their own existence. And this thing of holding them up on land such as we have — you give them a tract that is inalienable to any outsiders, a community of their own, and they would have marched with the progress of the days, perhaps better than they are now. Representative Stephens. But you must remember that the damage is already done. Mr. Chase. The damage is already done, and we are ready to face it. We contend for our brothers of the second and third class that OMAHA INDIAN RESEEVATION. 955 they should be given their lands and their moneys, and they can never be any worse on than they are now. Representative Stephens. Is it not a fact that if you find anyone that is not permitted to sell his land and wants to sell it and is compe- tent, you can make proof of that and come to the department here and get his restrictions removed? Mr. Chase. Yes ; but that all rests with the clerks down there, and the whole power is virtually taken away from those to whom they have given power. Representative Stephens. I agree with you on that, and I would be in favor of having the Indians themselves to designate a commit- tee of three to act in connection with the department here, and let the Indians first segregate those who are competent from those who are not. You know better who are competent. Mr. Chase. Surely ; that is the very thing that Mr. Webster spoke about to the Indian Office, that discreet men of our tribe should be ap- pointed to sit upon — if this system is to be carried on — to sit in judg- ment upon what this Indian should have of his money that is being tied up. Representative Stephens. I have introduced a bill along that line. Mr. Chase. Another thing. Senators, one of the greatest evils is that Congress passed a law giving the Secretary of the Interior ju- dicial power to sit upon and judge heirship estates. Representative Stephens. You prefer going to the local courts, then? Mr. Chase. I prefer giving only just such powers as he always had of issuing the patents to the rightful owners ; but when he goes be- yond that, the act provides— — Representative Stephens. Suppose, for instance, a man was a settler and entitled to the land, but he should die and leave two sets of heirs. He might have been married twice, and one of the mar- riages possibly was not legal. You get a complication there that would require some person with judicial discretion to determine to whom the land should descend. Mr. Chase. Surely. Now, the authority given by the act is con- fined to the finding of heirs. He is given no discretion in the matter, any further than to find, as a matter of fact, not as a matter of law, who the heirs are. Representative Stephens. There is no appeal from his decision i Mr. Chase. There is no appeal from his decision. Now, they tell me over there that I can be heir to a piece of land with another, and I can go before the Secretary of the Interior and he can make a find- ing that I am not heir when in law I am, and say that the other fel- low is heir. And they say I have no remedy. The Secretary of the Interior, as I understand it, is only a branch of the executive department, and this authority that assumes to give him the right to sit upon the question of heirship of the Indians is no more than what he had before, and therefore it is merely declaratory of what he had before. Now, why is it that his authority should be conclusive upon the Indians ? . Representative Stephens. Now, as a lawyer, would it not be well to frame up a case and go to the Supreme Court with it? Mr Ch^se. What is the use of putting the Indians to all that trouble? Isn't the Secretary of the Interior, upon the matter 01 956 OMAHA INDIAN RESERVATION. law— what is the Attorney General's office for in this country if he is not to advise the heads of departments as to what the law is in- stead of forcing the Indians to litigate these questions that have been piled upon them, not by themselves but by an Interior Department officer I There is where the wrong is. The Indian should not be put to the trouble of hiring lawyers'to test these questions. The Gov- ernment here has promised, the Senate has promised, every branch of the Government has promised that these Indians at the expiration of 25 years should have their fee simple patents, or, if the Indian was dead, his next nearest blood relative. Representative Stephens. You must remember that the Indians themselves asked for that to be revoked ; and Congress, agreeable to the request of the Indians themselves, did revoke the old law and made the new law, and you are complaining now of the new law. Mr. Chase. We have that situation anyhow, Senator, and it is working bad, and our people say that rather than live under ex- isting circumstances they are willing to meet their fate by taking their fee simple patents and having their moneys paid to them and living as any other people should. Representative Stephens. I agree with you along that line. I think they are supervised entirely too much. Mr. Chase. Now, what did Congress do after the passage of this extension '( Without the consent of the Indians, they fixed up a bill here to tax these trust lands. Representative Stephens. Not until after the 25 years expired. Mr. Chase. Before the 10 years extension expires. There is a bill in existence. Representative Stephens. They can not do that. There is a case in Oklahoma. Mr. Chase. They are doing it at home. Representath T e Stephens. The Supreme Court held recently that they could not do that during the trust period. Mr. Chase. We are here to complain of these things, and under existing circumstances our Senator from Nebraska, Mr. Brown, was prevailed upon by politicians and people who knew not our condi- tions, to pass a bill in the nature of a tax bill — we call it the " Brown tax bill " — to tax these lands that the trust was extended on. And the act of 1882 provides that no encumberance — that these lands shrould be given to the Indians free of all charge or encumbrance, and if a tax is to be levied against these lands it would be an encum- brance, which would be a charge upon the land, but they voted that. And Congress passed a law giving the Secretary of the Interior — if I had a piece of land that the trust was extended on, and I hap- pened to have some funds in the hands of the Secretary of the In- terior, that Indian agent can take it out of my pocket and pay it over to the county authorities without my consent. I say that is in violation of our rights as human beings. Representative Stephens. I think if you will examine the Okla- homa case you w T ill find out the matter has been determined and they can not do it. It is on all-fours with your case. Mr. Chase. We know that; but here is money in the hands of the Secretary of the Interior, and there is the Attorney General to OMAHA INDIAN EESEKVATION. 957 advise that that tax law is absolutely unconstitutional. Let the other fellow strike for that money and put us on the defense. Eepresentative Stephens. Why do not your Senators and Con- gressmen introduce a bill to repeal the law of Congress that permits that land to be taxed? Mr. Chase. I presumed this matter would be called to the atten- tion of Congress. Representative Stephens. You must understand the situation this commission is in. This commission is only to investigate matters not of legislation, but that are injuring the Indians where some wrong has been committed. This is in obedience to law, absolutely, and I do not see what jurisdiction we would have in the matter. This is a legislative matter, or a judicial matter— one of the two— and we are not examining into those things. Of course, we can hear it and make a record of it, and we are glad to hear you on it ; but it seems to me your remedy is through legislation or through the courts. I do not know what Senator Lane thinks about it. Senator Lane. I was about to suggest that if he will prepare a little brief on it and let us have it, I will undertake to pass it on to Senator Norris and get him interested in it, and maybe we can get something started to relieve you. Representative Stephens. I think so. Senator Lane. Will you do that? Mr. Chase. Yes ; we can do that. Representative Stephens. You gentlemen are all voters, are you not ? Mr. Chase. Supposed to be. Representative Stephens. You ought to be very close to the poli- ticians if you can vote. Senator Lane. Are these gentlemen with you all Omahas ? Mr. Chase. All Omahas; yes. Senator Lane. Now, if you will make a brief of it — boil it down — and let us have it, we will present it Mr. Chase. We thought that this commission ought to guard Senator Lane. We will help you. Mr. Chase (continuing). Ought to guard Congress from passing any laws violative of existing agreements with the Indians without their consent. And this thing of people running down here and thrusting upon our people legislation which is uncalled for — and then, if our people did agree to it, it was in violation of some exist- ing treaties, which is not fair. Senator Lane. Well, if it is working a hardship on you, you want it corrected. Mr. Chase. And we think that Congress ought to bend its forces to winding up our affairs instead of extending the time. We have to meet it sometime, and this generation is better fitted to meet what is coming than our youngsters, who will be left without anything to meet these conditions. Senator Lane. Then you will brief the case for me ? Mr. Chase. Yes ; I will. (Thereupon, at 9.45 o'clock p. m., the joint commission adjourned to meet at the call of the chairman.) 958 OMAHA INDIAN RESERVATION. Washington, D. C, October .13, 1913. Hon. Joe T. Robinson, United States Senate. Sir : I have been requested by Mr. W. E. Estill, of the Omaha Reservation, Nebr., to hand the inclosed letter to you. I have heard of the action of this man Preston from another source, and it would seem that his conduct should be looked into by some one in authority who is independent of the Indian Office. The trouble with investigations made by the Indian Office seems to be that they are made from the inside, and on that account are not independent enough to result in much good. I trust that you may be able to do something for the benefit of the Indians on the Omaha Reservation as to Mr. Preston. Yours, truly, Robt. T. Lang. Walthiix, Nebr., October 16, 1913. Hon. Joe T. Robinson, Washington, D. C. Dear Sir : The farmers of the Omaha Reservation are now struggling to up- hold their rights against the unreasonable theories of a young man named C. 0. Preston, who holds the position of boss farmer on the Omaha Indian Reserva- tion. It is through him and under his supervision that all leases are now made and approved and the farmers here charge him with being arbitrary, dictatorial, and unreasonable in some of his rulings, to the extent of damage and great injury to some of us who have held leases here for years and who have taken pride in our farming operations. A number of affidavits from leading farmers have been collected and some of them forwarded to Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs. These should have been forwarded to you for the reason that any complaints going to the office of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs are referred back to the superin- tendent for adjustment and report. While we believe in our superintendent and have faith in his integrity he is a little disposed to uphold Preston in some of his acts, although it is said Preston has been hauled on the carpet by him for others of his rulings and general conduct. A number of acts of Preston may be and will be cited to you for investigation, if you wish, but I think you can get enough at the office of Mr. Sells to satisfy you that investigations should be made of Preston's acts independent of any report made by the superintendent here upon the matter. One instance of an injustice to me and to the Indian dealing with me on land adjoining my holdings may be cited, and I ask to have this investigated at once by Mr. Sloan or some one close at hand while the facts are fresh- and easily obtainable. Mary White is an old decrepit Indian woman on list 3, and her leases are made at the office for her, she being privileged to sign the same. Preston, the farmer, gave it out, as he did with other good farmers, that no more leases would be made at the office for me. I asked by letter to Preston for a reason for this, admitting, as he did to my men, that the lands leased by me were splendidly farmed. My letter was ignored. Threats were then made by Preston to cancel all my leases. One of these leases does not expire until March 1, 1916, on which land — 160 acres — I have about $3,000 worth of improvements belonging to me until the expiration of said lease. Preston gave it out that he had asked for authority to cancel my leases. Now, under these circumstances, I went to Mary White and asked to lease her land and offered the sum of $3.75 per acre for it. I explained to Walker, her son-in-law, the situation. He talked to Mary and she was willing for me to have the land and waited over 60 days for me to make up lease with her. I agreed to sow all the land to alfalfa the first year also. Mr. William Tompkins wanted the land and had offered $3.50 per acre for it. Last week he went to the office, and with the aid of Preston, secured a lease on the land (NW. i SE. i 1-25-8) at his price, Preston telling Mary White the office would not lease to me. My lands are the SW. \ 1-25-8, adjoining Mary White's land. Mary White, by this ruling, is chiseled out of the sum of $10 per year on her 40 acres for five years, making a total of $50. I would like to have a comparison made between the farming done by me and that done by Tompkins. I asked Mr. Sloan to look into this, but he said he had no orders to do so, although he thought it ought to be done at once. To others Preston said he was going to cut out the automobile farmers. This meant that the farmers living in town would be cut. I know of a lease OMAHA INDIAN RESERVATION. 959 recently made to a man in town and who lives in town and in the mercan- tile business, who is not a farmer, under the direction of Mr. Preston. This man told me recently that I would have to get down on my knees to Preston and talk nice to him and I would likely get all my leases back, as that was the way he did it. I will say that we had twins come to us and I moved to town to take care of them, although much of my time is spent at the farm. This is why I moved to town, and I want to stay here this winter on that account. I intend going back to the farm on March 1, Preston to the contrary notwithstanding. As to his arbitrarily canceling my leases, he will have to fight over every inch of territory between here and perdition before he will succeed. "This is an Indian reservation, but it is no kingdom," quoting from a paper published in a neighboring town, a clipping of which I am mailing you. To one of our best citizens Preston recently made this remark, on being told that I was bitterly protesting against his ruling: "I will show him what a real Government official is." He meant, no doubt, that his power and privi- lege is indisputable. Mr. Robinson, I wish to say that I fought Republican rule since I came to this country from Kentucky 15 years ago. I have lived to see this county, always Republican, in the hands of Democrats for the past 10 years. It has taken fighting to do it. We told the Indians that our wrongs and theirs was the result of misrule and it would be remedied when the Democrats took the reins of power. The Indians of the country voted with us. Is this the result of our efforts for Democracy? Kindly let me hear from you as soon as possible. With best wishes, I beg to remain, as ever, Sincerely, yours, Will E. Estill. (Paper referred to follows.) Octobeb 24, 1913. Hon. Robebt T. Lang, 600 F Street NW., Washington, D. C. Deab Sib: Your letter inclosing communication from Mr. W. E. Estill, of the Omaha Reservation, addressed to Senator Robinson, has been received. Senator Robinson is at present in the West on the business of the joint com- mission and will not return to the city for several days. As soon as he returns your letter and the letter from Mr. Estill will be called to his attention. Yours, very truly, R. B. Keating, Secretary. Macy, Nebb., 22, 1913. Mr. Joe Robinson, Washington, D. C. ... „ Deab Fbiend: I am Omaha Indian. I make complaint to your committee about Mr. Preston, boss farmer. He try to make me sell land through Macy office. I ask for patent in fee for 200 acres. Preston try to make me sell land through the office. He say if I fight him he put me back on list 3, so Government lease all my land for me. I got 335 acres land. I try to keep it for my boy I don't sell. I can get $5 acre, 5 years, for 200 acres, to lease it Lease money pay my debts on home and all my stuff. I wish your committee look at my case in Indian Office down there; see all my letters for two years now. Indians don't want Mr. Preston ; white men don't want him. Our people want Mr. Tom Sloan down here right away. He knows about things here. Tour friend, Fred Mekrick . I wish you write Mr. Sloan come here right away. We want him here pretty bad. Washington, D. C, Octooer 29, 1913. Hon. Joe T. Robinson, *«■.,, Chairman Joint Commission, United States Senate, City. Sib- You will find inclosed a letter addressed to you in my care, the writer no doubt beiS in doubt as to how to reach you and thinking that I would know how to do so. 960 OMAHA INDIAN RESERVATION. The Indians of the Omaha Reservation, Thurston County, Nebr., are, I am advised, very much concerned about the actions and statements of Mr. Preston, a boss farmer of that reservation. From all accounts he should be looked a rter, as he does not seem to be a proper person for the responsible position he has at present. Respectfully, „ m T Robt. T. Lang. November 10, 1913. Mr. Feed Merkick, Macy, Ve&r. Dear Sir : Your letter, addressed to Senator Joe T. Robinson and forwarded to this office by Mr. Robert T. Lang, has been received. Senator Robinson is at present in the West on the business of the joint commission to investigate Indian affairs and will not return to the city for some time. As soon as he returns your communication will be called to his attention. Very truly, R. B. Keating, Secretary. Walthiil, Nebr., March 19, 191/,. Will E. Estill, Washington, D. C. Dear Sir : Inclosed James McKeegan letter. It was sent in this form instead of affidavit, and affidavits can be supplied later if desired. You will note he requests that the Indian Office furnish all data on Preston and all complaints to the committee. There are undoubtedly many letters there from Dunn and others. He also requests that Preston make a written reply. Put this up to them strongly, and if they can be made to see the actual facts they will dispose of Preston. This letter does not make his case half as strong as it could be made and does not do real justice to the facts. If the committee could know Preston as we know him he would not hold his place 15 minutes. Please acknowledge receipt and oblige. Yours, very truly, E. W. Rossiter. Walthill, Nebr., March 19, 191/,. To the Senate Investigating Committee, Wasliington, D. C. Dear Sirs : I wish to lay before you briefly some facts with reference to the leasing of lands on the Omaha Indian Reservation in Nebraska, and particularly with reference to the conduct of one C. O. Preston, so-called expert farmer of the Omaha Indian Agency. For seven years past I have leased and farmed the S. J of the NE. i of 9-25-8 and other Indian lands adjoining my home farm of 120 acres. The lease on this piece of land expired on March 1, 1914. In the fall of 1913 I secured a new lease from the Indian owner, Margaret Pappan Grant. This lease was forwarded to the Indian office for approval, and held for a period of 60 days before the same was finally returned to me disapproved. A telephone call to the Indian office at Macy, Nebr., brought the Information that if the sum of $380 was paid for certain buildings In lieu of erecting same the lease could be returned and approved; that this was the only obstacle that stood in the way. Reports circulated in my neighborhood were to the effect that another individual was to have the land. Upon hearing this report, the agency was again phoned to to learn If there was anything further necessary to secure the approval of the lease, and the reply was to the effect that it was being considered. The matter so stood until Saturday, December 27, 1914, C. O. Preston drove to my farm to say that they had received an Increased offer for this 80 acres of land and unless I met the offer it would be leased to the new man. I asked him until Monday, the 29th of December, to consider, and he assented. On that day my son drove to Macy, Nebr., and called at the agency office to accept the new, terms of lease, only to learn that the lease to the new man had been approved on this same land on Wednesday, December 24, 1913, three days before C. O. Preston ever came to my place. OMAHA INDIAN EESEEVATION. 961 This is only one instance where O. O. Preston has been known to misstate the facts. He thought he would appear to give me an opportunity to meet the new bid, as is customary with the old leaseholder, and at the same time give the land to the new 'man without an opportunity for me to actually meet his bid. This new man offered to pay the Indian owner money for signing the lease and agreed to buy her a team of horses, contrary to the rules of the office govern- ing leasing. Affidavits of this fact were filed with the office, but were not con- sidered, it being alleged that the Indians were influenced to sign same. In addition to this fact C. O. Preston has held up all my leases and my son's leases. In fact, he has endeavored to secure other renters for all my lands, and endeavored to compel the Indians to lease to others. At the present time I have only one 40-acre Indian lease. The last lease made to my son has been in the agency office six months, and only after every effort was made by C. O. Preston to get some one to take it from him, and he was unable to find such a man, did he permit the lease to be approved. Now, gentlemen, I am not able to cover the facts as fully as I should wish in a brief letter. I wish, however, that you would call upon the Indian Office for a statement of the facts in this case as they have them ; also, call upon Mr. C. O. Preston for a written reply to this statement. I have lived on his reservation for 25 years and never had any difficulty with the Indian office in any of my transactions with the office or the Indians. This man Preston is not the proper man to have such discretionary powers as are given to him. He is continually abusing his authority, and will not hesitate to use questionable methods to advance himself in the eyes of his superiors. He does not hesitate to misstate facts to bolster up his case. A man of his char- acter should not be permitted to exert his influence among a tribe of Indians when it will certainly work ill among them. There is too great a tendency to make a record on a part of many employees by stirring up trouble and making lots of noise, regardless of the best interests of the Indian. This man has had much trouble on this reservation and the Indian Office is undoubtedly the recipient of many complaints, but no satisfactory action has been taken. Nothing less than removing such a man from the service would be sufficient in this case. Tour careful consideration of this matter will be greatly appreciated. Yours, very truly, James McKeegan. Washington, D. C, February U h 1914. Senator J. T. Robinson, Washington, D. G. My Dear Mr. Robinson : I am forwarding to you a request from Winnebago, Nebr., located in my district, asking for an investigation of the Winnebago and Omaha Agencies. I think it would be a good idea to have an investigation made there, and if your committee has not finished its work I would recommend a special inspector to these two agencies, both operated under one superintendent, and let him make a thorough investigation as to their method of doing business. I have had a great deal of demand for this sort of investigation for sometime. Kindly advise me whether or not you can make this investigation. Yours, very truly, Dan V. Stephens. February 18, 1914. Hon. Dan V. Stephens, House Office Building, WasJiington, D. C. My Dear Sir : I am in receipt of your letter of the fourteenth instant, inclos- ing a letter signed by W E. Whitcomb and John Ashford and affidavits by John Ashford and W. E. Whitcomb, Jane Hill Earth, and John Painter, relative to matters in connection with the administration of affairs at Omaha and Winne- bago Agencies. , .... An investigation of these agencies will be considered by the commission at the earliest practicable date, and your recommendations will be given careful attention. Yours truly, „ „ ,,, . Joe T. Robinson, Chairman. 962 OMAHA INDIAN EESEKVATION. Winnebago, Nebr., February ?', 191-'/. Hon. Dan V. Stephens. Member of Congress. Washington, D. C. Dear Mr. Stephens: 'Your letter asking for specification of charges against Mr. Upebureh as a basis for asking for an investigation of matters here re- ceived, and would have had more prompt answer but for the fact that a] 1 in- spector lias been here and had said in the beginning that he would take these matters up though he had no orders to do so; but yesterday he informed us that he was in doubt as to what he ought to do and intimated that he would not go into the matters without instructions. This man's name is Rosencrans. I had always undersood that Congress was investigating generally all Indian agencies, and did not understand the necessity of filing charges of corruption or otherwise to obtain an investigation. It is distasteful to us to file complaints and charges against officials of the department, they have a hard enough time to manage their job, and naturally dissatisfaction is occasioned by their action. Absolute corruption or gross incompetency is about the only thing I think that justifies a man in filing complaints with the Indian Office. I inclose you affi- davit of John Painter, which will explain itself. Dr. Painter is a helpless old Indian, one of the few left who needs special care to protect bis interests, and investigation of the matter will convince anyone that tbis deal was corrupt. Jane Hill also received a patent to land, a fee simple patent. Jane Hill has never seen this patent, her land has been sold at a low. figure; Jane Hill does not know to whom it was sold, says she never saw him. Now, Mr. Stephens, we want you to try and see to it that Mr. Sloan be sent here to examine these matters mentioned and also any and all other irregu- larities and acts of corruption that may be called to his attention or discovered by him. There are many other allegations of graft and wrongdoing that I might mention, but what I have called attention to is certainy sufficient to call for an investigation. The congressional investigation asked for will bring back to us an official of the Indian Office who will likewise undoubtedly investigate the same matters. We have tried to have the present inspector examine into this without telling him or disclosing to him fully the exact situation of affairs, for we know by past experience how these people stick together, and while we believe the inspector is probably all right we did not care to give him the ex- act facts as to what he would find, but wished him to go to examine the wit- nesses by whom these facts could be proven, and this he has declined to do. Hoping you will be able to get us the investigation as we desire it, we are, Very truly, yours, W. E. Whitcomb. John Ashford. affidivit. State or Nebraska, Thurston County, ss: John Ashford and W. E. Whitcomb, of Winnebago, Nebr., of lawful age, and each being first duly sworn, on oath states: That Jane Hill Earth has made all of the statements contained in a paper hereto annexed and marked " Ex- hibit A" for identification; that these statements were freely made by the said Jane Hill Earth ; that Jane Hill Earth declined to sign the said affidavit, stating that she was afraid to sign it, but that the statements were all true. Affiants state that they have examined the land sold by Upchurch of Jane Hill Earth, and that the value of the land is $80 or $85 per acre, at least. Affiants state on information and belief that the sale of said land was first made to John S. Spear in trust; that the said John S. Spear then deeded the land back to Jane Hill Earth, who then deeded the land to Charles Guernesey; that Charles Guernsey is not the real owner of the land, and that his name appears in the title for the purpose of covering up and concealing the real transaction, which in truth and in fact affiants believe was a transaction between Mr. Up- church and Mr. Small. And that Jane Hill Earth, in connection with the deal, did and has done only as she has been told to do by Mr. Upchurch, and received $700 less than the land could be sold for ordinarily for eash. Further affiants sayeth not. John Ashford. W. E. Whitcomb. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 7th day of February, 1914. [seal.] A. M. Smith, Notary Public. OMAHA INDIAN RESERVATION. 963 Exhibit A. State of Nebraska, Thurston County, ss: Jane Hill Earth, being first duly sworn, on oath deposes and says that she is a full-blood Winnebago Indian woman of lawful age and living on the Winne- bago Indian Reservation in Nebraska; that Charles Earth is her husband; that on or about the 1st day of December, 1913, she was told by the officials at the agency that she had received a fee-simple patent to the SE. J of the SW. i of sec. 7, T. 26. P. 7, Thurston County, Nebr. ; that she never saw this fee-simple patent which she was told had been sent there to her in the name of Jane Hill ; that some time after the 1st of December, 1913, deponent was called into the office by Mr. Upchurch to sign some papers which she was told were to give the land to the agent, Mr. Spear, and that on the representation made to her by Mr. Upchurch she signed papers and left them there ; that she was after- ward called again to the office and was told that she had sold her land, and was asked to sign papers again by Mr. Upchurch, which she did. After this was done she was told to go to Homer and that she could get the money. She said that she did not wish to go to Homer, and so Mr. Upchurch got money and gave it to her the next day in the amount of nearly $700 ; that shortly after receiving this money deponent gave nearly all of it to C. J. O'Connor, to whom she was indebted, and who claimed that she owed him this amount. Deponent does not know how much exactly she gave to O'Connor, and does not know other than by the statement of Mr. O'Connor, verbally made, how much she owed him. Deponent states that she never saw the purchaser of the land and does not know of her own knowledge how much he gave for the land; that she was never given a patent to the land in her own hands, and never saw this patent. The whole transaction was arranged by Mr. Upchurch between Mr. Upchurch, Mr. Small, and Mr. O'Connor. And further affiant sayeth not. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 7th day of February, 1914. Notary Public. State of Nebraska, Thurston County, ss: John Painter, being first duly sworn, on oath deposes and says that he is a Winnebago Indian and a son of Dr. Painter; that Dr. Painter is a full-blood Winnebago Indian; that Dr. Painter needed to buy hay for feed for his ponies, and the agency farmer, Mr. Upchurch, bought the hay for him from a man by the name of C. C. Frum. The hay was bought in the stack and was worth about $10 a ton; that the stack bought actually contained not more than six nor less than four tons of hay ; that Mr. Upchurch said that stack of hay con- tained more than 13 tons, and induced my father, Dr. Painter, to pay C. C. Frum $148.50 for that stack of hay, and the hay is pretty nearly all used up now, and I don't think it had more than 4 tons in it. Deponent states that he is certain that his father was cheated on this little hay deal almost $100, and further affiant saith not. John Painter. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 6th day of February, 1914. [seal.] A. M. Smith, Notary Public. 35601— pt 10—14 2 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL t* = HEARINGS BEFORE THE JOINT COMMISSION OF THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED^TATES SIXTY-THIRD CONGKE SECOND SESSION [ ^"G 2 1Q§Q (P / INVESTIGATE INDIAN AF FEBRUARY 6, 7, 8, and MARCH 25, 1914 PART 11 Printed for the use of the Joint Commission ^y PRESENTED TO Hartwick College ^Jj^ ^feONEONTA, N. Y. , ^^ &;&<':,..> J- P. KINNEY • WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFEIOE 1914 X £ 9 3 Congress of the United States. JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS. Senators : Representatives : JOE T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas. HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma. CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota. R. B, Keating, Arkansas, Secretary. Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk. CONTENTS. Testimony of— Page Mrs. Rosa B. La Flesche (outing manager) 9 6 5 Hiram Chase 97 o John Gibson osg Alvis Martin 993 Louis Braun gn fi Peter Eastman '.'.'.'.'. 999 Edward Bracklin 1003 Henry Broker ]*" ^qq9 Zephaniah Simons '. 1011 Montreville Yuda 1016 Wallace Denny (assistant disciplinarian) 1049 Mrs. N. R. Denny ^56 Mrs. Bertha D. Canfield (teacher) 1058 Mr. John Whitwell (principal teacher) 1063 Re Julia Hardin 108i ' ' Stolen pies " [.[.[..[.. 1083 Industrial training 1086 Health and sanitation 1088 Correspondence and comments 1089 Miss Julia Hardin HOo Mrs. Angel Dietz (teacher) 1106 Louis Schwiegman 1111 Mrs. Lydia E. Kaup (normal teacher) 1112 William H. Miller (financial clerk) 1114 Re organization of athletic association and system of accounting 1115 Identification of various checks 1116 Identification of checks on account of Supt. Friedman 1121 Mileage books 1122 Expenditures for arrests, prizes, clippings, etc 1126 E. L. Martin (press agent) 1131 William H. Miller, resumed 1133 Reorganization of athletic association 1133 Statement of receipts from games 1136 Method of accounting for receipts 1140 William B. Gray (farmer) 1144 C. K. Ballard (second farmer) 1148 W. J. Ryan (dairyman) 1151 Dr. E. A. Knoble (president Dickinson College) 1154 Fiske Goodyear (merchant) 1162 Rev. George M. Diffenderfer (minister) 1167 Dr. A. R. Allen (visiting physician) 1172 J. W. Henderson (attorney) 1178 Rev. Alexander McMillan 1180 George Abrams (gardner) 1186 William Nonast (tailor) 1187 Miss Emma C. Lovewell (teacher) 1182 Miss Hattie M. McDowell (teacher) 1185 Edward McKean (disciplinarian) 1189 Miss MargarefM. Sweeney (teacher) 1193 Miss Anna H. Ridenour (matron) 1195 Re Julia Hardin 1196 General conditions 1199 Dr. Walter Rendtorff (school physician) 1203 m IV CONTENTS. • Testimony of— Continued. Pa s e - Harvey K. Meyer (superintendent's clerk) 1204 Charles H. Cams (painter) 1205 Martin L. Lau (carriage maker) 1208 John A. Herr (carpenter) 1206 William 0. Shambaugh (blacksmith) 1207 H. Gardner (assistant carpenter) 1209 Harry B . Lamason (mason) 1210 John Boltz (shoemaker) 1211 Robert B. George (tinner) 1212 R. C. Renneker (baker) 1213 Miss Virginia Penrose 1215 Mrs. Emma H. Foster (teacher) 1219 Glenn S. Warner (athletic director) 1222 Re discipline 1226 Work of Supt. Friedman 1233 August Kensler (quartermaster) 1238 Claude M. Staufrer (band master) 1241 Dr. Moses Friedman (superintendent) 1246 Re relations with principal teacher 1248 Discipline and work of disciplinarian 1250 Julia Hardin 1251 Article in Public Ledger 1258 Athletic fund 1261 Industrial training 1268 Farm produce 1273 Mattresses 1275 Montreville Yuda 1276 Departments discontinued 1277 Meals, etc 1278 Miss Lelah Burns (teacher) 1280 Miss Adelaide B. Reichel (teacher) 1285 S. J. Nori (chief clerk) [ 1292 August Kensler (quartermaster) 1325 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. friday, february 6, 1914. Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, Carlisle, Pa. The joint commission met in the Y. M. C. A. hall at the Carlisle Indian School, Carlisle, Pa., at 4.30 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Robinson (chairman) and Lane and Represent- atives Stephens and Carter. The Chairman. The Joint Commission of Congress to Investigate Indian Affairs visits the Carlisle Institute for the purpose of inspect- ing the same and making an investigation of the conditions prevail- ing at the institute. TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROSA B. IA FLESCHE. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. What is your name ? Mrs. La Flesche. Rosa B. La Flesche. The Chairman. Are you employed in the Carlisle Institute ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In what capacity are you employed ? Mrs. La Flesche. My title is manager of the outing department. The Chairman. How long have you been connected with the institute ? Mrs. La Flesche. This time I have been here nearly two years. The Chairman. Were you formerly employed here ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. The Chairman. How long ago and for what length of time % Mrs. La Flesche. Why, I came here in 1889, and was a student for one year. I then graduated and then took a position and was here 12 years. The Chairman. Where was your home before you entered the Carlisle Institute ? Mrs. La Flesche. Michigan. . The Chairman. What is the general character of the duties you perform, Mrs. La Flesche ? Mrs. La Flesche. Why, principally clerical work and directing the outing— pupils going out and coming in, and looking after them while they are out. The Chairman. Do you live here at the institute ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have you lived here ? Mrs. La Flesche. Nearly two years. The Chairman. Are you familiar with the conditions in the scnooi « Mrs. La Flesche. Why, so far as my department is concerned. 965 966 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Ciiaii.wi sx. Have you observed the progress and conditions that obtain in the school generally? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The state of discipline among the pupils? Mrs. La Flesche. It is better now than when I first came here, although it is lax yet. The Chairman.' How long is it since it began to improve ? Mrs. La Flesche. Well, this fall. The Chairman. What do you mean by "lax " ? Describe it ? Mrs. La Flesche. Well, the pupils seem to have no regard for the orders that are issued, and, of course, that seems to be the cause for much of the trouble. The Chairman. You know Supt. Friedman, of course ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In what estimation is he held by the pupils ? Mrs. La Flesche. I think that is where the trouble is; they do not regard him highly. They have no respect for him. The Chairman. What evidence do you see of the fact that he is not highly esteemed by the pupils? What circumstances lead you to that conclusion ? Mrs. La Flesche. Why, there has been times when he has asked them to do things that they positively refused. The Chairman. Tell us something about those things. Mrs. La Flesche. At one time last summer there was a party of girls, two or three, I think, being sent home. They were sent from the office building. The carriages were at the office, and a group of girl friends followed them up to the office and were sitting out on the campus, and they wanted to say good-by to their friends, and Mr. Friedman, of course, did not want them to speak to the girls that were being expelled. At first he sent Miss Ridenour out to tell them to go back to quarters, and the girls would not go. There must have been about 8 or 10 girls there. So she went into the office and told him, and he came out on the porch and asked them to go to the quarters, and they defied him, and just stayed right there. The Chairman. That is one incident. Do you know of other instances when the pupils have openly shown a contempt of his authority ? Mrs. La Flesche. No; I don't know of any — that is, I don't know of my own observation, but I have heard of other cases. The Chairman. Here about the premises ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. The Chairman. From whom did you hear it ? Mrs. La Flesche. From Mr. Denny, the assistant disciplinarian, and Mr. McKean. The Chairman. Who is the disciplinarian here ? Mrs. La Flesche. Mr. McKean. The Chairman. How long has he been here ? Mrs. La Flesche. I think he came last June — May or June — some time last summer. The Chairman. Do you know anything about the number of female pupils who have been sent home during the last school year ? Mrs. La Flesche. I know there has been several, but I do not know the exact number. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 967 Ti ^ 9^ AI]RMAN - Do y° u know the causes for which they were expelled? J Mrs. La Flesche. Not fully; they did not come under my de- partment. J The Chairman. That did not come under your jurisdiction ? Mrs. La Flesche. Of course, I heard of those things; but I do not know definitely about them. The Chairman. How is the culinary department, the feeding department, of the school run ? Under whose authority is that « Mrs. La Flesche. I really do not know. I think perhaps Mr. Kensier has charge of that department. The Chairman. Do you know anything about what kind and quality of food is served the pupils ? Mrs. La Flesche. I do not. I know the pupils are not satisfied. The Chairman. Is the complaint general ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. The Chairman. What is the general nature of the complaint « Mrs. La Flesche. They do not get enough to eat. The Chairman. Is there any complaint as to the quality ? Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know about that. The Chairman. I asked you awhile ago if you knew of any other instances where the authority of the superintendent had been held in open contempt by the pupils. Do you know anything about their calling him opprobrious names or jeering at him? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, I do. I know that he passed by the boys' quarters one evening, and the boys were supposed to be in bed and all quiet, and all of a sudden there was quite a racket, noise, and hollering, and I heard that they threw old shoes at him — sticks and things they could get hold of. The Chairman. Do you know if they called him any names ? Mrs. La Flesche. No. The Chairman. Did he know it ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; he knew it. The Chairman. What was done about it ? Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know. Mr. McKean and Mr. Dickey were in their cottage. They lived in that small cottage. The lights were out and boys supposed to be asleep, and they heard this racket, and they jumped up and went out and met Mr. Friedman, and he told them they had better look after their boys. I do not know what was done in regard to that. The Chairman. Do you know whether domestic science is taught. in the school, or anything pertaining to housekeeping ? Mrs. La Flesche. Not that I know of, no. The Chairman. Do you know what effort is made to instruct the male pupils in farming or dairying or kindred occupations ? Mrs. La Flesche. The outing department is supposed to give the boys experience on the farm and the girls experience in housework. The Chairman. That is, instead of giving the instruction in house- keeping to the girls and in agriculture to the boys here in the school, they are sent out to receive that instruction ? Mr. La Flesche. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know whether that is in fact given them, and how many of them receive that kind of instruction ? 968 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. La Flesche. Why, I know they go out and work on the farm and work in the homes, and in some cases the idea for which the outing department was started is carried out. Again, there are other cases where they get the boys and girls; that is, the farmers and people get the boys and girls for the work they can get out of them. The Chairman. They hire out both boys and girls to farmers ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir; the boys to farmers, and there aie only a few farm homes for the girls. The Chairman. Are they supposed to receive salaries or pay for their work ? Mr. La Flesche. They do. The Chairman. What is done with the income from that source ? Mrs. La Flesche. We have certain rules that govern that, and half of their wages are to come here to the bank and to be saved for them until their period of enrollment expires, and then the other half they are allowed to spend. The Chairman. Do you know how many boys were hired out to the farmers last year, during the last school year? Mrs. La Flesche. I can not give you the exact number. The Chairman. Do you know approximately ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; we have something over 500 boys and girls together. The Chairman. How long are they permitted or required to remain out on the farm ? Mrs. La Flesche. We have an outing party in April, and those boys and girls usually stay out until the last of August. Then they come in and begin school the 1st of September, except those boys and girls wishing to remain out and attend school in the country. The Chairman. Do they attend the public schools ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is the average wage that the boys receive ? Mrs. La Flesche. The boys get from $12 to $15 average, and the girls about $8. The Chairman. You mean a month ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. That includes board and washing. The Chairman. Do they get any salary when they attend the pub- lic schools ? Mrs. La Flesche. No, sir. The Chairman. How are they clothed % Are they clothed by this institution? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; they just work for their board when they are out in the wintertime. The Chairman. Do you know of many pupils in this school who have been taken from places where they have had advantages of homes before they came to this school? Mrs. La Flesche. Do I know The Chairman. Do you know how many pupils were in the pub- lic schools where they had the advantages of homes before they came here ? Mrs. La Flesche. I should think about one-half to three-fourths of the pupils who are here have the advantage of public schools. Of course, I may be wrong about that, but a great many of them have. The Chairman. That is your estimate 1 Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. QQQ ;™ e rU C T R ?t£ Whe ,V he 7 ^, on the siting what arrangement is made about the pupils' railroad fare ? hn™ " if/r SCI ^- The .P atrons P a y their fare out to their country l!l!u wi PUpiis V & l™ 61T wa ^ back - The fare sel dom road fire several homes where it takes $4.23 for rail- The Chairman. Now, Mrs. La Flesche, I would like for you to make a general statement as to your observation of the conditions here, and set forth any facts that you think ought to be called to the attention of this commission, if you please, without restraint. Mrs. La Flesche. One thing especially that I have felt was deplor- able in my department was this fact, that Mr. Friedman has always pressed me— and, I thmk, likewise pressed Mrs. Denny, when she had charge of the outing department— to put a great many pupils out. lhat seems to be his special desire, to make the number large regard- less of the kind of homes or the quality of students we send out. I he idea of the outing, as originated by Gen. Pratt, was to teach the Indian boy and girl how to live and come in contact with white people in their own homes, how to learn the economical ways of housekeep- ing, farming, etc. That was the idea, to place them not as servants, but sort of helpers, getting wages for what they did, and to receive help by the patrons by their association. That was the original idea of the outing. That principle has been lost, it seems to me. When I was here as a student I went out. I was out two different summers, and at both times I was in good homes, and I gathered a great deal; I gained a great deal from my experience. I find that in many cases — of course, the boys do not talk to me as much as the girls, but the girls will tell me about their outing homes, and they tell me where they have been benefited, and others tell me where they have not been. My idea of the outing would be this, to place the pupils in well- selected homes, and improve the quality of the pupils — make it a privilege to go out, rather than send any boy or girl in order to swell the numbers. The Chairman. The object of the outing is, of course, as you have said, or should be, to give the pupils the advantage of training in good homes ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. The Chairman. And you think that class of work can only reach the highest degree of success by carefully selecting the homes to which the pupils are sent and then also carefully selecting the pupils, in order that the advantages may properly be availed of ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. I know there were times last summer when Mr. Friedman said to me, "Put them out ; put them out." He kept on pushing me to put them out. And there were cases where pupils that I would not have in my own house that we had to send out in order to make the numbers that he wanted. The Chairman. If I understand you correctly, the only idea that seems to prevail among the present management is to put out as many students as possible in order that the income from that source may be increased, largely losing sight of the benefits to the pupils, which was the original purpose of the outing work ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 970 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Do you know whether there is much drinking among the pupils ? Mrs. La Flesche. Very much. The Chairman. What observation have you made of that ? Mrs. La Flesche. We had a great deal of trouble out in the coun- try. Of course, the lax discipline here, I feel, is the cause of much of our trouble in the country. Mr. Dickey is the outing agent. He visits the homes of the boys and he spent most of his time— instead of encouraging them to work, etc., he spent most of his time after runaways and taking care of the drunks, and there was a great deal of di'inking here last winter, more than there has been this winter. The Chairman. Is liquor sold in this town legally ? Mrs. La Flesche. I suppose so. The Chairman. Is it, Mr. Rupley? Congressman Rupley. Yes; under a high-license law. It is sold simply in hotels. The Chairman. Have you any information as to how this liquor is procured by the Indian pupils ? Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not know. I have heard they can get it any time they want it. The Chairman. Have you seen the Indians drunk about the school grounds ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. The Chairman. To what extent? Mrs. La Flesche. I happened to be passing — I heard them yelling around, and then I was passing out the gate one evening and I met a couple of the boys drunk. And last winter, down on the skating pond, and several times when they had their receptions here in the gymnasium I smelled liquor on some of the boys. Senator Lane. Do any of the girls drink ? Mrs. La Flesche. Not that I know of. The Chairman. What is the state of discipline among the girls, Mrs. La Flesche; the general state of it ? Mrs. La Flesche. Why, from all I can gather they are very hard to control. Last year there was very lax discipline, but this year they seem to have a better hold of it than they had last year. The Chairman.. What is the state of feeling of the young lady pupils and the girls in the school toward the superintendent ? Mrs. La Flesche. They have no respect for him. The Chairman. What evidence have you of that fact ? Mrs. La Flesche. Just their general attitude. The Chairman. Do they hold him in contempt? Senator Lane. And why? Mrs. La Flesche. I don't know why. I don't know really — I do not talk to the children about those things. Senator Lane. From your observation, why? Mrs. La Flesche. It seems as though he is not fatherly. He does not seem to care anything for the children. That seems to be the general feeling. Representative Stephens. You say there is better discipline now than last fall ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. What do you attribute that to? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 971 Mrs. La Flesciie. Well, last year when I first came here there was — the disciplinarian and matron at that time were not in harmony with the superintendent, and, of course, they were pulling and hauling both ways. The Chairman. Do they complain of instances of injustice upon the part of the superintendent? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. The Chairman. Can you state some of the instances ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; there are individual cases where he seems to have been unjust. I do not know as a whole that I could state anything, but there are individual cases where he has not dealt fairly with them, and of course that has spread around among the pupils. They all feel it. The Chairman. They take that view of it, do they, that he has been unjust ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; I think perhaps you could get a better idea of this by speaking to the children about that. They know more about it. The Chairman. How about the employees ? Have there been com- plaints about injustice to them on the part of the superintendent — that is, against the superintendent ? Mrs. La Flesche. Why, of course, he has his favorites. I do not know whether they complain about any unjust treatment or not., I know they do not cooperate with him ; that is, a great many of them do not, and they have no respect for him. There are a certain few that do. The Chairman. Do you know of any instances where pupils of this school have been confined in the county jail recently ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many ? Mrs. La Flesche. There were one or two girls, I think, and several The Chairman. Do you know upon whose complaint they were confined ? Mrs. La Flesche. I do not. The Chairman. Who are they ? Mrs. La Flesche. One girl by the name of ; 1 do not re- member her first name. The Chairman. What was the charge against her i Mrs. La Flesche. Immorality, I think. Senator Lane. How old a girl is she ? Mrs. La Flesche. I would say about 17 years old. ,-••,, The Chairman. Do you know how long she was confined m jail? Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not. I think there was another one. She is a younger girl, and was sent to— not Glen Mills, but some place up there. . , , , .,-, * The Chairman. What is the condition m the school with refeience to morality among the pupils, Mrs. La Flesche? Mrs. La Flesche. So far as I know now, it is better than last j car. The Chairman. What was it last year? Good or bad i Mrs. La Flesche. Pretty bad, I think. The Chairman. Was there general complaint here about the con- dition in that particular ? 972 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mrs. La Flesche. No The Chairman. General discussion? Mrs. La Flesche. Well, I did not hear very much about that. The Chairman. When did the improvement in the morals begin ? When did you first observe it ? Mrs. La 'Flesche. Last fall, when they had their change of disci- plinarians and matrons. I think then Mr. Friedman began to coop- erate with his disciplinarians and matron. Before that there was no cooperation at all. There was open warfare Senator Lane. Who was the matron formerly ? Mrs. La Flesche. Miss Jennie Gaither; it is now Miss Ridenour. Senator Lane. Where is Miss Gaither now ? Mrs. La Flesche. Down at Phoenix, Ariz. The Chairman. Who was disciplinarian last year? Mrs. La Flesche. Mr. Henderson and Mr. Rudy. Mr. Rudy lives in town, and Mr. Henderson lives at Cherokee, N. C. Senator Lane. Now, these girls that were in jail. How did they come to be sent to jail? Was that by request of the superintendent here, or complaint from the outside ? Mrs. La Flesche. I don't know just how. It must have come from here, because there was no complaint from outside. Senator Lane. In cases of immorality among girls, can you not take care of them here instead of sending them to jail ? Mrs. La Flesche. Why, I should think so. That does not come under my department. Senator Lane. Or the institution — in a general way, you would know, wouldn't you ? Mrs. La Flesche. I have heard something about it, but I do not know definitely about those things. Those meetings and those doings were done by Miss Ridenour, and Mr. Friedman, and Mr. Stauffer, and Mr. Denny, and Mr. McKean, and Mr. Kensler. Those are the faculty, and they had meetings there quite often in Mr. Friedman's office, and they would conduct the affairs. Senator Lane. Are these what they call incorrigible girls, hard to manage, head strong, willful children ? Mrs. La Flesche. Why, I do not know. Senator Lane. Do you know them at all personally? Mrs. La Flesche. I just know of them. I do not know them personally. Senator Lane. How many girls are there here? Mrs. La Flesche. There must be something like 265 or 270. I deal principally with those that are going out in the country and coming back. Senator Lane. Those girls that you handle outside, how do you find those ? Are they good girls ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. Senator Lane. Are they amenable to advice and kind treatment? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir; I think so; the majority of them are. There arc girls — there wore a number perhaps that were placed -out that should not have gone, because they were not good girls; they were incorrigible, and they should have been kept here. Senator Lane. Sending them out that way, an incorrigible girl is liable to get into trouble, is she? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 973 Senator Lane. That is what they say? Mrs La Flesche. Yes sir; and that is what I protested against, but it did not make any difference. The result of that was we had °J 1° CaS6S of ™ na ways, girls running away from their good homes, uke that W6re glrlS ' ° Ur b6tter girls d ° n0t ^° an 3 Tthin g Senator Lane. What became of them afterwards « Mrs La Flesche. They returned, most of them, and were brought back here to the school. Senator Lane. And they are back in here now ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. Senator Lane. Do they behave themselves now since the V came back ? J Mrs. La Flesche. So far as I know. The Chairman. Mrs. La Flesche, is there a state among the pupils here bordering on insurrection ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In your opinion, do you think it is liable to become flagrant ? Mrs. La Flesche. I certainly do. The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for it, if you have one ? Mrs. La Flesche. The only remedy now is to remove the superin- tendent. It has gone too far. The Chairman. You think it is bevond his power to restore discipline ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; he never in the wide world could get their confidence. The Chairman. Is he lacking then in the confidence and respect of the pupils generally ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What do you mean by "insurrection," Senator? Defying authority? The Chairman. Yes; open rebellion. Represents five Stephens. Those girls you spoke rf us being sent home at the time this came under your personal observation, did they defy him at that time, and if so, what did he do when they defied him ? Mrs. La Flesche. I really do not know the real cause for sending them home. Representative Stephens. You do not know the cause? Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not know. I do not wish to state that, because I might not get it straight. Representative Stephens. What did he request them to do that they refused to do ? Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know. Senator Lane. Mrs. La Flesche said that these were girls that were going to see these other girls off, and he ordered them to quarters and they refused to go. Representative Stephens. What did he do to those girls then ? Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know what he did. They just stayed there on the campus. I do not know whether they were disciplined after that or not. 974 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Senator Lane. Ho has the power and authority to see that they do go to quarters ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Is he merely good natured and careless, or — m that ease how was it? Mrs. La Flesche. He seems to lack — he lacks something; 1-don t know what it is. Senator Lane. Backbone? Mrs. La Flesche. He lacks the power to control. He ]ust does not have it. Representative Garter. Executive ability; is that it ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; he does not have it. When I was a student here we would no more think of defying Gen. Pratt— when Gen. Pratt would tell us to do something we would go and do it in a hurry. But with Mr. Friedman, not any of them seem to care any- thing about him. They just seem to laugh in his face and walk on.. The Chairman. Do they ridicule him? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. The Chairman. Do you know of their getting up a petition and sending it to Congressman Rupley ? Mrs. La Flesche. I know — that is, I heard of it. The Chairman. That is one evidence of insubordination and dis- satisfaction that you regard as general throughout the school ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. The Chairman. I think that is all. Representative Carter. I want to ask a few questions. Representative Stephens. I want to ask a question or two. Have any of them complained that they did not get their money when they came in ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. Representative Stephens. How many? Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know, but they find many complaints. Representative Stephens. You have no authority to investigate or say anything about it, but you know they have made those com- plaints ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. The money comes in from the country and I turn it over to Mr. Miller, and further than that I have not any control over it. Representative Stephens. Have you ever traced up any of those individual cases where the money coming in from the country and through you was turned in here, to know whether the student did get any of it or not ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. I looked up one case — John Jackson or Jacob Jackson. He is a boy that lived in my home in Michigan. He wrote to me asking about his money, so I went to Mr. Miller and asked why John could not get his money. He said it was on account of some ruling of the Indian Department in regard to individual Indian moneys ; that only a certain amount could be allowed during the year. Representative Stephens. How much was due him, if you know? Mrs. La Flesche. I do not remember just exactly, but the figures can be obtained Representative Stephens. They keep books, do they? Mrs. La Flesche ■, Yes. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 975 Representative Stephens. Do you keep any check on your work to know how much is turned over to them ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. Representative Stephens. Can you look that up ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. Representative Stephens. When was that? Mrs. La Flesche. When did the boy write? Representative Stephens. Yes; that boy turned in the money to you and failed to get it. Mrs. La Flesche. The boy went home last August or September. He spent the summer out in the country, and each month the man he was working for sent me his wages, and it was turned in to the bank, to Mr. Miller. Then after that he went to his home, and about a month ago he wrote me asking for the money, and I went to Mr. Miller to find out, and that was what I got. The Chairman. Were any of the children disciplined for making complaints against the management here ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many, and what was done with them ? Mrs. La Flesche. Why, one girl was sent home. The Chairman. Who was she ? Mrs. La Flesche. : . The Chairman. Do you know where she is from ? Mrs. La Flesche. She is from Wisconsin, I think. And I heard that Gus Welch was considered a leader among the boys. I do not know that he was sent home, but he went home anyway. Representative Carter. Gus is not here now? Mrs. La Flesche. No; I think you can get him, Mr. Carter. Representative Carter. Mrs. La Flesche, you stated that the rail- road fare for the outing students was paid by the people who took them into their homes, and the students paid their own fare when they returned ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. Representative Carter. Is that always true? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. Representative Carter. Is it not a fact that funds are sometimes used from the appropriation for the school for that purpose ? Mrs. La Flesche. Not that I know of. Representative Carter. Now, we make an appropriation every year by Congress for that purpose. Mrs. La Flesche. For the outing? Representative Carter. Taking children to and from the outing— to and from homes on the outing system. Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know anything about it. Representative Carter. I wanted to ask you how many girls you said were here ? Mrs. La Flesche. I think about 2G5 or 270. Representative Carter. How many boys ? Mrs. La Flesche. i do not know Representative Carter. Do vou know what the enrollment was ( Mrs La Flesche (continuing). I think, between 700 and 800. Representative Carter. What was the enrollment last year * Do vou know ? Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know. 976 CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Representative Carter. But you know the average, don't you ? Mrs. La Flesche. No. Representative Carter. Or the per capita cost ? Mrs. La Flesche. No : I do not know those things. Mr. Meyer would be able to tell vou that. Representative Carter. Now, Mrs. La Flesche, I think you can give us a little clearer statement as to the cause of this bad discipline here if you would refresh your memory. There must be some direct cause for it outside of the fact that the superintendent has not executive ability. Mrs. La Flesche. The children do not like him. Representative Carter. They do not respect him ? Mrs. La Flesche. No; they do not like him; they do not respect him. Representative Carter. Do you know why they do not respect him ? Mrs. La Flesche. I think one of the things is that he misrepresents things Representative Carter. Those are the things we want to know. Mrs. La Flesche. He misrepresents things. Representative Stephens. What do you mean by that — that he misrepresents things ? Mrs. La Flesche. For instance, we received a boy from the West, James Holy Eagle or Holy Elk. He is a young man about 17 of 18 years old and a good musician. He came here last fall and entered the band and orchestra. He is one of the leaders now. Well, in the papers frequently you read where James Holy Eagle, a pure-blood Indian, just arrived from the West, was placed in the band, and was an expert musician, or something like that, and the inference is that he received that during his short stay here. That is the idea — to give out a good sounding article. Senator Lane. Boosting the school? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; and it is that way in everything. Representative Carter. Well, Mrs. La Flesche, are there any rea- sons why they should not respect Mr. or Mrs. Friedman ? We want you to be perfectly plain with us. Mrs. La Flesche. I do not think — he is not a fatherly, you know. They go to him, for instance —there is a time when a child feels that they like to have a talk with a mother or father, and perhaps a boy will go to him and ask him something, and he will say "Go to Mrs. La Flesche," or "Go to Mr. Meyer." They will come to us, and, of course, we can not decide. There are certain things that are not in our power to decide; and they feel hurt because he does not come closer to them. Representative Carter. Is his conduct bad in anyway before them < Mrs. La Flesche. I do not think Representative Carter. Has he any bad habits f Mrs. La Flesche. I do not think that he has a good influence, but not any bad habits that I know of. I could not say that he was bad. Representative Carter. He has not any bad habits 1 Mrs. La Flesche. Not that I know of. Representative Carter. Have you ever had any difference with Mr. Friedman ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 97 7 Mrs. La Flesche. No; I have never had Representative Carter. There is no animosity Mrs La Flesche Nothing at all. So far as I am concerned he is friendly with me. I have nothing against him . Representative Carter. Is he addicted to the use of whisky* Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know that ' Representative Carter. You do not know whether he has an V habits of that character at all ? y Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know anything about it chndrenT y ° U mean 1S that he ls not res P onsi ™ to Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; he just turns them over to somebody else. t R ep™sratative Cabthsk. Do you consider anybody else responsible tor the bad discipline here except Mr. Friedman * v Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not. Representative Carter. There are no other influences in the school ? Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know of any, Air. Carter Representative Carter. Indian children, as a rule, are not verv dmicult to control, are they ? Mrs. La Flesche. No. Representative Carter. Haven't you always found them much more easy to control than white children ? Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. I feel certain that if we had a head here that would take an interest in the pupils, that they could care for and respect, I think there would be no trouble. Representative Carter. Who can tell us about the girls ? Mrs. La Flesche. I should think, Miss Ridenour. Representative Carter. I mean the girls you spoke of as having been sent home for some cause. Mrs. La Flesche. Miss Ridenour ought to be the one to tell. She knows those. The Chairman. We thank you very much, Mrs. La Flesche. (Thereupon, at 5.30 o'clock p. m., a recess was taken until 6.15 o'clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. At the expiration of the recess the commission reassembled. The Chairman. A number of young men students in the school are present, and I am informed by Inspector Linnen that they rep- resent the male pupils in the school. Inspector Linnen. Gentlemen of the committee, I have to state that since I came here on this investigation a large number of the student body, both boys and girls, have requested of me permission to hold meetings, at which time they would select members of their student body who would be representative of them to appear before me or before your commission to state their grievances. Igave them permission to appoint such a committee, and the boys are now here present, with one exception. They have stated that the matters which they desire to complain of are, first, laxity of discipline; sec- ond, unjust expulsion of students without reason and the withholding of some that should be expelled; third, misrepresentation of the school to the public and to the authorities in Washington; fourth, 35601— pt 11—14 2 978 CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. insanitary conditions in the school; fifth, insufficient quantity and quality of food; and, sixth, unjust punishment. , (All the witnesses present were thereupon duly sworn by trie chairman.) TESTIMONY OF HIRAM CHASE. Mr. Chase. May I have notes ? The Chairman. You may proceed and make your statement. Mr. Chase. Mr. Friedman has expelled many students The Chairman. One moment. A number of young gentlemen are present here with you, and T desire to know whether you purport to' represent the student body in the Carlisle Institute. Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And if so, upon what authority you appear before the commission ; what authority from the student body ? Mr. Chase. At a meeting of the male students of this institution they appointed a committee. The first time a committee of four was appointed, but after an interview with Mr. Linnen they decided to have eight at least, and we called another meeting, and there was eight, the committee which is here now, with the exception of one member. The Chairman. Now you may proceed and submit the matters of which complaint is made by the student body which you represent, and all the facts and circumstances in connection with it that are within your knowledge. Mr. Chase. Mr. Friedman has expelled a great number of students from this institution. Many have been expelled with just cause, while there have been others who have not had a just cause for which to be expelled. I have the names of about 26 students who have been expelled since last March. The greatest cause for expelling these students, those that deserved it, is that boys and girls nave met at the various times. And the student body as a whole, they wish to have such students expelled from the school. We do not want to have such students as that. They held meetings with the girls when that should not be. On the other hand, there have been a great number of students who have been expelled unjustly. For instance, there is Montreville Yuda. At one time he was very highly thought of by Mr. Friedman. Mr. Friedman thought Yuda was all right. That was the time they had a play here, entitled "The Captain of Plymouth," and Mr. Yuda had the chief part in this play. He was a boy— I can say that I believe he is the smartest boy I have seen from this school — that is, that has not went any further in the out- side schools than this school. He was very highly thought of by Mr. Friedman. He is a boy of influence, and stood for the right. A few of the disciplinarians and Mr. Dietz, they started to bring charges against Montreville that he had been spending nights — they brought charges against Yuda being at town and being at the school only about once a week. When Yuda found out about this he went to Mr. Friedman — he went to the disciplinarian and asked the disci- plinarian if the charges had been made. The disciplinarian said yes, but why punish a boy when he is not guilty ? Yuda, he wanted these charges to be proven, and he went to Mr. Friedman and he asked him. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 979 [ ?j Bt £4$- " Do you make these charges against me?" Mr. Friedman said. Yes, sir." He said, "You prove them." He said, "We don't need to prove them; we know it. You don't have to prove them " Yuda said, You let me prove it." Mr. Friedman said, "No, vou don t need to prove that." Yuda said to him, ' < What kind of justice do you call that? Are you going to stand by the disciplinarians when they bring cases to you that way and want to punish me for unjust causes?" And he said, "Yes; I will stand by my disci- plinarians to the letter T,' whether they are right or wrong " This statement came from Montreville Yuda. Montreville told him, 'You take my name off the roll." He said, "No, sir; I will not do any such thing, but I will consider you later." Yuda stayed around here a couple of days, and I think he went to Washington to see some one. I did not find out who it was. When he came back to Carlisle he came back to the grounds. In the mean- time Mr. Friedman had heard about this. The Chairman. About what ? Mr. Chase. About Montreville going to Washington, and he gave him two or three hours to get off the grounds. He said, "You leave the school and leave the town, and not come back." The Chairman. What are the facts with reference to the charges against Yuda ? Do you know what the facts are ? Was he absent from the school the greater part of the time ? Mr. Chase. They claimed that he stayed here about one night of the week. The Chairman. What are the facts ? Mr. Chase. It is not true; he stayed here more than that. The Chairman. Was he away from home any considerable time ? Mr. Chase. Not a great part. I suppose he was away once or twice in a week probably. The Chairman. What was he doing away, if you know ? Mr. Chase. I am sure I don't know. Senator Lane. Is that against the rules? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. He had broken the rules then? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. The Chairman. All right. Are there any other cases of expulsion of pupils which the body which you represent feel were wrongful ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. Louis Schweigman was expelled on January 9 of this year. He returned to school this fall and started to work for Mr. Whitwell, the principal teacher. He worked in the office a con- siderable time, and Mr. Whitwell said he is one of the best boys he had work in his office. He worked there a good deal of the time, and finally Mr. Friedman wrote a letter to Mr. McKean and said, "I want you to take Louis Schweigman out of Mr. Whitwell's office." Representative Carter. Who is Mr. Whitwell, and who is Mr. McKean ? Mr. Chase. Mr. McKean is head disciplinarian, and Mr. Whitwell is the principal teacher. He had Louis Schweigman removed from the principal teacher's office to work half a day. He did, and that did not suit Mr. Friedman, so he had him taken out the whole day, and Louis was taking sign painting and he had to study hard to get it. Finally they claimed that he was loafing, and I know for a fact that this boy was studying this sign painting. He had a book that he got 980 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. from the instructor in painting, Mr. Cams, and lie was studying this* and they claimed that he was a loafer. They threatened to expel him, so he wrote to Washington, and they arranged to send him home. He had written to his father for money, so Mr. McKean got him ready, and they taken him to Harrisburg. He got on the train at Harrisburg, and as soon as the train started he got off on the other side — or he did not go very far — and he got work there. He worked for a little while and he came down to Grayson; that is down here about 6 miles, and he is working for a man he had worked there for before while under the school. We think that is very unjust on the part of Mr. Friedman to make that boy sacrifice what might be his life's work. Senator Lane. Where is his home ? Mr. Chase. South Dakota. The Chairman. What are the personal habits of Yuda and Schweigman ? Mr. Chase. Well, personal habits — there is nothing disgraceful in their habits that I know of. I do not think either of them drink, but I know Yuda smokes, and like that. The Chairman. How old is Yuda % Mr. Chase. I could not say how old he is; probably 22 or 23. The Chairman. How old is Schweigman ? Mr. Chase. About 20. The Chairman. Go ahead. Mr. Chase. Mr. Schweigman came back here, intending to learn something about his trade, and at the same time he might have planned that for his life's work, to be a painter, or something, be- cause I know he was not very far advanced in books. To send him away that way, it might mean that he would give it up or change the boy's whole life. I have another one. Harrison Smith Senator Lane. Where is he from ? Mr. Chase. From West De Pere, Wis. Harrison Smith went home when the home party went last year — the 1913 home party, And in this hall Mr. Friedman called the boys that were going home together to give them a little talk before they left the institution. He got them up here and got to talking to them, and he says, "Harri- son Smith," he says, "Mr. Smith, you have been disloyal to this school. Now you are going home. I don't care what becomes of you. I don't care even to say good-bye to you. You may be excused." And this boy is a graduate, and is one of the most influ- ential boys in our Y. M. C. A., and is one of the most thought of boys. The Chairman. Did you hear him when he said that ? Mr. Chase. No, sir. The Chairman. How did you know he said it ? Mr. Chase. I heard several of the boys that were in the room. The Chairman. Is there any one here ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. So Harrison Smith took his hat and he left the room. It certainly must be he was a good boy, or else Mr. Friedman was doing wrong in giving a diploma to a boy that did not deserve it. The Chairman. Are there other cases of wrongful expulsion « Mr. Chase. Philip Cornelius; he is an Oneida from Wisconsin. He went to Chambersburg, Pa., under the outing system, and worked CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 981 as a carpenter there His time was up and he wanted to o-et a ninTon th^th^/f T ^^lip <£ld me. I went home^th him on the 25th of June last I went home last summer and I rode with him to Chicago. He told me that he went to ChambersbuS and was working as a carpenter, and he came back here and wanted to get his release and go back to Chambersburg and make his own ?W °W ■ A N h W ' & \ l \?' Mr - Friedman does not want them to do" that. He don't want them to be in this part of this country unless they are under the school rules. Mr. Friedman called hiih up to £?,« % The 7 had a little talk and they put him in the guard- house. He was also a leader m our Y. M. C. A. and the captain of £? P U' ancl one of the best b °y s in our quarters. J j^i 1 ™^'. D ? yOU know wfa y lle was P ut in the guardhouse* Wh y did they claim he was put in the guardhouse ? Mr. Chase As I understand, he was going to go back on his own hook going back to Chambersburg, and they just kept him in the guardhouse for three or four days, and then shipped him home— let him go home. A , 1 is a young lady. I don't know whether to leave that to the women or not. The Chairman. If you know anything about it vou can state it Mr. Chase. January 14, 1914, was expelled. Some- time ago one of the societies gave a reception. She did not go. I am not sure whether she went or not, but the next day the matron she complained about being tired to the girls, and she had been going around the rooms and jerking the girls out of bed, and one thing and another. They go to sleep with the other girls, of course, when they are alone. It is natural for the girls to be afraid. So she shook up the girls. was an officer in one of the troops. She stepped out of the troop, and she said, "Miss Ridenour, if you were in the room where you belong you would not be tired." Miss Ridenour said, "Well, there is some officers here that are not fit to- be officers." So she stepped into ranks, and later on she went back to her place as an officer. In the meantime, on New Year's Day, I think it was, the girls wanted to go skating. They have been rather strict about letting the boys and girls talk to each other. The girls wanted to go skating, and it seemed as though was a kind of leader, and they wanted -to get up a petition to see whether they could go skating. I am not sure whether they went or not; I was not here at the time. Finally one morning she was going to the schoolroom, on January 14. She was going to school with the girls, and she saw the matron standing at the bottom of the staire. The matron said, " — ■■, I want to see you. " .She said, " I have waited long enough, , for an apology. " She wanted the girl to apologize to her for her actions. ■ • — said she would not apologize. She said, "I have waited long enough for this apology, and Mr. Friedman and I have decided to send you home . ' ' • said , " All right . " So one of the matrons — there is three matrons in the girls' quarters — one of the matrons went up with • to pack her trunk, and stood at the door. When she was ready they brought her downstairs and kept her in the office and did not allow her to see anyone before she wen home. They kept her in the office and pulled down the curtains, and would not even let her look out. 982 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. What reason was assigned for sending her home? Mr. Chase. On the official reports that were made by the matron— and, of course, she must have authority from the superintendent — they had her registered, "Sent home as a graduate." The Chairman. As a graduate ? Mr. Chase. Graduated, and sent home. At this tune she was going to the business department. She was a graduate here of last year's class. She was going to the business department and trying to learn something so she could do something for herself in the world. The business students took it up. Two or three of the young men in there went to Mr. Friedman and asked him why he sent home. Well, he told them some little story, and he said, "Well, she is a graduate." If that applies to her it will apply to more of them in there because the school rules are that no one shall go to that business school unless they can pass the senior examinations. Senator Lane. All you know about this case is hearsay, isn't it? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. One of the young men is here that took the petition to Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. I wish, Mr. Chase, when you make a statement of matters that are within your personal knowledge and observation you would say so, and when you are referring to matters that you have no personal knowledge of, I wish you would mention that. And it is best to let those who have personal knowledge of matters to testify to them, because you may be misinformed, you know. Go ahead and make any further statement. You wish to testify about the other complaints ? Mr. Chase. I want to say something else about this expulsion. I know for a fact that Mr. Friedman has practically expelled these students, and a great many of them who have been expelled have been registered "home on leave," "failed to return," or "dropped." Now, if they are expelled they ought to put it on there "expelled." The Chairman. Do you mean to say that he makes a fraudulent and false record? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That is an important statement, Mr. Chase, and I would like to know what specific proof you have of that statement. What pupils have been actually expelled and sent home from the school that were marked on the record, by his or anyone else's direction in the school, as having been dropped or failed to return, or anything of that sort, other than the mere statement ? Mr. Chase. James Baker was expelled. On the report he is " home on leave; failed to return." Bakei was expelled outright. He gave him about three or four hours to get away from the grounds. Senator Lane. How long ago was that ? , Mr. Chase. I forget how long that has been. It must have been 15 months; a year ago, at least. Representative Stephens. Where was he from ? Mr. Chase. North Dakota. The Chairman. Do you know what he was expelled for ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir." The Chairman. What was it ? Mr. Chase. He had written to his agent for money, as I understand it. Now, I am not certain about this, but this is the story that CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 9g3 came to me. He wrote to his agent for money, and his agent ignored his letter, and he wrote a letter, which is businesslike. At the same time it was impudent, The agent wrote to Mr. Friedman about this and Mr. Friedman called him up there; and James, although he was not «, voter or anything, he believed in socialism. Representative Stephens. How old was he? Mr. Chase. I could not swear to his age; about 20, I suppose The Chairman. Go ahead. Mr. Chase. He was expelled. He says, "We don't want any such student as that here." So James got ready and he went home He had him marked, "Time out; failed to return." Philip Cornelius was expelled and they had him marked, "Time out." Louis Schweigman was marked "Dropped," although he was practically expelled. The Chairman. You are speaking about their being marked oh the record falsely or erroneously. What record do you refer to ? Mr. Chase. Why, the quarterly reports that are made out in the principal teacher's office; the reports that are sent from the quarters. That is, when anyone leaves or comes to this school a report is sent from the quarters — girls' quarters, large boys', or small boys'. The Chairman. Sent where ? Mr. Chase. To the principal teacher's office. This report, I should think, would come from Friedman, telling whether they went' home or on leave or what. The Chairman. Who keeps that record ? Mr. Chase. I do not know whether there is two of them or not, but he is on that record. The Chairman. Who keeps it ? Mr. Chase. Mr. Whitwell, the principal teacher. Representative Carter. Who makes the record ? Mr. Chase. The principal teacher, and he has two stenographers there. Representative Carter. Does he make the entry himself ? Mr. Chase. No, sir. Representative Carter. Who makes the entry ? Mr. Chase. I do not quite understand. Representative Carter. You say the principal teacher gets the report. Who does it come from ? Mr. Chase. It comes from the quarters to him and then to Mr. Friedman. Representative Carter. From what quarters ? Mr. Chase. Any quarters — large or small boys or girls. Representative Carter. Who does make it out ? Mr. Chase. The disciplinarian. Senator Lane. The report would naturally be the superintendent's. It would not make any difference who made the entry. The Chairman. If he specifically directed it to be done it would make a difference, you know, as to the moral turpitude of it. You do not know of your own knowledge of any circumstances in which the superintendent personally directed these false entries to be made ? Mr. Chase. Notpersonally. Senator Lane. That report becomes an official matter of record here? 984 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. On the roster? Mr. Chase. On the quarterly reports. I am not sure whether the quarterly report is sent to Washington or not. I know they make out a report which is called quarterly. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, it is sent to the Indian Bureau, isn't it? Senator Lane. It must be, yes. Mr. Chase. Harrison Smith, June 1(5, 1913. He was officially re- ported a graduate, but he is practically expelled, because Mr. Fried- man said he did not care to say good by to him or anything; he just sent him away. Senator Lane. He had his diploma \ Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; Mr. Friedman signed his diploma. The Chairman. He is the one that you say was called into this room and lectured by Mr. Friedman I Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And told he had been disloyal to the school all the way through? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And yet he permitted him to graduate ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. I want to say something about Yuda. Yuda had gone to town after Mr. Friedman told him to leave the town; this is the statement which was made by Mr. Yuda. He told me this morning. He runs a little store over here. He told me that when he was expelled he went home. His home is in New Jersey some place, or New York The Chairman. Mr. Yuda is going to be here, and he can make that statement. Is there anything further? Mr. Chase. That is about all I have on expulsion. The Chairman. All right; go ahead on your next subject. Mr. Chase. Expulsion is my subject. Ea^h one has a subject. The Chairman. Just a minute. How long have you been in the school ? Mr. Chase. I came here on the 15th of October, 1911. The Chairman. What class are you in now ( Mr. Chase. Junior. I graduate with the class of 1915. The Chairman. Have you ever had any personal difference with Sunt. Friedman ? Mr. Chase. No, sir. The Chairman. Have you ever been disciplined for any alleged misconduct since you have been in the school ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Was it serious ? Mr. Chase. No, sir. The Chairman. Have you any personal animosity toward Mr. Friedman? Mr. Chase. I do not quite understand. The Chairman. Have you any personal animosity toward Mr. Friedman ? Any hatred of him ?' Mr. Chase. Not personally. The Chairman. How does the student body regard Mr. Friedman, as a whole ? CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 985 Mr. Chase. The student body as a whole don't think very much of him. He is a man that is not true to his word. The Chairman. Is that the way he is regarded ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; by the students. The Chairman. Do you know anything about the discipline fenerally in the school on account of the lack of respect for Mr. 'riedman? Does that tend to create bad discipline in the school? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have you seen instances of insubordination among the pupils displayed toward Mr. Friedman ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Will you tell us about when and what they were ? Mr. Chase. One night he made an inspection of the large boys' quarters. He said he came through to see how conditions were in the rooms, but the boys seemed to think there was some other rea- son, because that was the time about New Years, when the boys- it seemed like they were on a strike. He came through, and he said he wanted to see how the conditions were in the large boys' quar- ters, and consequently somebody turned off the lights, and they threw shoes at him i and one thing and another, and that is the way it will be until something changes. The Chairman. Is that feeling general among the pupils ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; among the boys especially. 1 don't know about the girls. They jeer — they used to, and they do yet, but not nearly as much. The Chairman. What do they say ? Mr. Chase. "Who let him out?" and one thing and another like that. The Chairman. Do they call him any names ? Mr. Chase. I could not say any names, only "The old Jew "and "Damned Jew." The Chairman. Do they call him that publicly ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And in his hearing ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; they called him that when he was in the large boys' quarters. The report comes to me that after he made the inspection of the large boys' quarters he went to the girls' quarters and had the girls at assembly, and told them he found a young man over there in bed with his clothes on in bed. That is the report The Chairman. You mean, found a boy in the girls' bed ? Mr. Chase. No; found the boys in their building in bed with their clothes on. The Chairman. That is about what would happen if they were up after hours, isn't it? They would just about be scooting off to bed with their clothes on ? Mir Otta se "Y©s sir . The Chairman. Have you participated in these acts of insubordina- tion toward the superintendent ? Mr. Chase. I did at one time. The Chairman. When was that, Mr. Chase '. Mr. Chase. Probably a month and a half ago. The Chairman. What occasion was that? Mr. Chase. I was alone with another boy. Andrew Condon was the boy's name. 986 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Representative Stephens. What did you do ? Mr. Chase. I ring the bell at 4 o'clock. I was coming from the dining room and was out on the porch. I do not know what tempted me to do it, but I took a pasteboard box, and I stood up on the third floor porch, and I let it sail like that, and it hit him in the back. The Chairman. You don't think you were doing right then? Mr. Chase. I don't know The Chairman. I want to make this statement right here, that the Government and this commission in calling you before us is in no sense to approve or give countenance to the insubordination which we believe, from your statements and other information in our posses- sion, has become quite general in this institution. This investigation is being conducted for the good of this institution, for the benefit of the pupils, and for the school in general, and not for the purpose of wreaking vengence on anyone who happens to have become the victim of the contempt or disrespect of the pupils in school. We are here to get information and facts, and to do what we can to improve condi- tions. But the students in this school must not get the idea that Congress, or this commission of Congress, regards them as wholly blameless for this widespread insubordination. It is simply a ques- tion with us as to what is going on and why, and what is the best remedy for it. Now, have you any further statement to make about that that was not made ? Mr. Chase. No, sir. The Chairman. It was stated in the beginning that this committee represents the student body. How many students were in that meeting that selected this committee ? Mr. Chase. I should say 200. I could not say just how many large boys there are; but there were 225, I should judge. This hall was full; that is, of male students. The Chairman. Do you know anything about whether there is much drinking among the boys or not ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; there'is. The Chairman. Do many of them become intoxicated at times ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What efforts are made by the management of the school to stop that, and how do they handle that, Mr. Chase ? Mr. Chase. I do not know only one time that they tried to put a stop to it. They had an assistant quartermaster here and some policemen that were working, and they tried to play detective. They took a bunch of boys down town and gave them a dollar a piece, and told them to go and buy some whisky. That was by Mr. Friedman's orders I presume. They told the cops not to bother them, but the cops did not want to see anybody get in trouble, and they went around and told the saloonkeepers to be wise. The Chairman. Do the saloon keepers sell the Indian boys liquor ordinarily ? Is that the way they get it ? Mr, Chase. No, sir. The Chairman. Where do they get the liquor ? Mr. Chase. They have bootleggers mostly. The Chairman. Is there a feeling of sympathy among the student body for that kind of business ? Do the students generally connive at it v CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 987 Mr. Chase. They have tried to put a stop to it. The Chairman. Have you any organization among the young men looking toward trying to stop that ? Mr. Chase. No, sir. The Chairman. Of course, I suppose, drunkenness or excessive drinking, or drinking at all, encourages disorder and lack of discipline ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Just as much as anything can. Do you blame the superintendent for this drinking — the frequency of it among the pupils ? Mr. Chase. Now, I could not hardly answer that. Representative Carter. Mr. Chase, this young man, Montreville Yuda — did you say he was expelled % Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. He was expelled for being down town at nights, was he ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; and Mr. Friedman knew that he was a boy that was influential among the other boys. ' Representative Carter. Can you tell the committee what he did when he went down town ? Mr. Chase. Why, Mr. Dietz and Mr. Denny, they originated the charges that he had been staying at undesirable places in the city of Carlisle. The Chairman. Was that true ? Mr. Chase. I am sure that I could not swear to that, but his statement is that it is not true. He told me this, that he had his night watches, his section officers, and his troop officers that could prove that he was there. Representative Carter. But he did stay out from the institution some nights during the week ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. About two, you said ? Mr. Chase. Probably two. Representative Carter. Does your student body approve of him doing that ? Mr. Chase. They did not know it at the time. Representative Carter. Would they approve of it ? Mr. Chase. No, they would not; no, sir. • Representative Carter. Would not your student body think it would be for the best interests of the institution if he were disciplined for breaking the rules in that manner? Mr. Chase. Your honor, I think there is other things to resort to besides expulsion. I think that is the last thing to do. Representative Carter. Was he ever given notice about it before he was disciplined ? Mr. Chase. No, sir. Representative Carter. But he had violated the rules and was expelled ? Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. What tribe do you belong to ? "•"■ Mr. Chase. Omaha, of Nebraska. 988 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. TESTIMONY OF JOHN GIBSON, STUDENT. The Chairman. You were sworn ( Mr. Gibson*. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Where is your home >. Mr. Gibson*. In Arizona,. Senator Lane. What tribe do you belong to '. Mr. Gibson. Pima. The Chairman. You may proceed and make your statement. Mr. Gibson*. I have for my subject the misrepresentation of the school through the different papers, to the authorities in Washington, and to the public. I have found that through the school catalogue, which is published in- there is one catalogue which is published in about liiOfi, and it is circulated among the students out on the reser- vations from the office here, and up till 1912 they had no other new catalogue, but the circulation of the old catalogue has done much toward bringing students to this school. They have those different things which 1 do not think existed at that time, and in the 1912 catalogue there are certain things that were put in that catalogue that were connected with this school, but are now out of existence. The Chairman. Tell us what they are. Mr. Gibson. One thing is the harness shop, which has been abolished. The Chairman. When was that abolished ? Mr. Gibson. I have no idea when it was abolished. It was out of existence when I came, a little over two years ago. The Chairman. Is that in the catalogue? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Does it appear to be a part of the school yet? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Published in 1912? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Go ahead. Mr. Gibson. Then, another thing is the telegraphy department. Well, the telegraphy was in existence up to a year or so ago. That is all right. They had the telegraphy department — I mean the school catalogue was published when the telegraphy department was here. The Chairman. It was all right to publish it, then? Mr. Gibson. Yes. Then there are articles in the catalogue which state that the pupils, the young men and young women who should attend this school, must be from the age of 14 years old and under 20, which means they should come here between those two ages. And yet to-day you can see boys here under that age, not even 10. You can see boys here, and girls too. The Chairman. Are there any here over 20 ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir; there are lots of them here over 20. The Chairman. You have stated that that relates to the time of their coming here ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. Of course. I know that common sense would tell us that any student who has lots of brain, you call it, and can go to school at a very early age and acquire an education, they woidd admit him to the departmental grades here. Of course, this is clue to the public schools within a short distance of their homes. And in this catalogue I notice that they call a special student — they CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 989 admit the students here for two years. Tliey are supposed to have taken academic courses here, taken the senior examinations and passed ready to enter the two-year term to take the business course and the telegraphy. The Chairman. Are there many cases where that is not conformed to, and those who have not taken the senior examinations are ad- mitted to that course % Mr. Gibson. I could not say; I could not tell you that. But there are pupils here that have come and taken the examinations and passed. Next, I want to refer you to the trades. I spoke of the harness shop being abolished, and the telegraphy department is abolished. There are several connections to the telegraphy department which I will bring in later. Photography has also been abolished. There has been a general complaint among the boys in regard to a carpenter shop here — the inefficiency of the carpenter shop and the manage- ment of it. They say they do not learn enough here, and as a result most of them go away disappointed, and yet some of them come here just for the purpose of learning the trade. Sometimes they run away or go back. Of course, I can not recall any of them that ran away just on account of that, but I have heard complaints of the manage- ment of the shop. Next are the farms. We have tw8 farms and they both together range somewhere in the neighborhood of 311 acres, and it is advertised that agriculture is carried on extensively. Of course, it is; but again in the catalogue, agriculture, dairying, hog raising, and poultry culture are advertised, and I see by their reports that are being printed now over in the printing shop it brings the net proceeds of §7,283. And there have been recorded on the report of the first farm and the second farm — that is the way they are distinguished — the report is that so many eggs are produced. And yet where those eggs go to we have no knowledge of. Senator Lane. You don't see them around on your breakfast table ? Mr. Gibson. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you mean by that that there are no eggs pro- duced on the farm? Mr. Gibson. No, sir; I don't know about that; I won't say that is a feet. What I am getting at is that we don't get them. Senator Lane. They never get any to eat. I suppose they are not edible eggs. The Chairman. Do you get any pork from the farms I Mr. Gibson. No, sir; very seldom. The Chairman. Do you get milk from the farms % Mr.'GiBSON. No, sir. Where we get the food I don't know. Not to my knowledge. The Chairman. Have you ever had a teacher of agriculture here ! Mr. Gibson. Do you mean as a part of the study ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Gibson. No, sir. The Chairman. Was that abolished? Mr. Gibson. I have no knowledge of any surh establishment It is stated in one of the catalogues that pupils are brought here and whenever they show enougli knowledge and training along a 990 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. certain line or occupation here, they are allowed to go out and work at their different trades. I just want to refer you to a few instances which conflicts with those. Xow, there were two telegraph depart- ments. There were several operators gone out from the telegraphy department and took positions, and there was some made good, and yet a year last spring there were two telegraph operators, one in the Postal Telegraph and one in the Western Union down town — this was last spring. I don't know whether there is something the matter the administration, but these two operators went in right at the time they were making good and those operators down town needed them the worst — that is, when they were getting on sending and receiving messages — and they were taken out of the telegraph offices and brought back to the school. An explanation has been asked by these two operators, but no definite explanation can be given. There is one boy that came here just for the purpose of learning telegraphy. This was a boy in the Western Union office. When he was taken out of there- he was sorely disappointed, and he told Mr. Friedman he was going home if he was treated that way. Well, the operator in the Western Union office down town got him a posi- tion at Trenton, N. J., and he went there — I think he told me that he went there as assistant manager, and yet he had not had sufficient training here to take him that far. He done the best he could, but he said he could pretty nearly come up to the standard of good operators, but not quite. So he was obliged to leave and go home. Now, another person that was taken out of a trade was one of the. boys that is here now. He is an automobile machinist. He is down, town working in the garage. Right at the time he was learning to be a machinist to prepare himself to go out in the world he was taken out in a similar case. He was taken out, and he is here at the school- now, and a definite explanation has been asked for and he has not received it yet. I don't know what has been wrong, but last spring — I for myself, have gone down town in hopes I could get a start in my trade and have been turned down likewise. I tried to help out the outing office by getting myself my own position. The Chairman. What is your trade? Mr. Gibson. Printing. 1 went out to Mount Holly, Pa., and got a position there, and notified the outing office to get permission to go out to that position, and L was denied on the ground that there was no boys to- be allowed around Carlisle and the vicinity in these towns. I don't know why. Again, I went clown to Hanisburg and 1 got me a place in the Har- risburg Telegraph, and there I was denied again, and yet there were boys working at that time— when I applied for the positions thase boys were down town working as mechanics and some down at Har- nsburg. I don't sec any reason why I should not go down there. Representative Stephens. Who denied you that right? Mr. Gibson. Mr. Friedman. Representative Stephens. He denied you the right to work there? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. And gave no reason for it? Mr. Gibson. No reason whatever. Now, I want to refer you about this Y. M. C. A. As a charter mem- ber of the Y. M. C. A. I have taken a great thai of pride in this asso- CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 991 ciation, and two years ago we had a resident general secretary here Dr. James W. W. Walker, from Philadelphia. We had our Y. M. C. A. flourishing, and it was a good organization, about one of the best organizations that was ever connected with this school; and he was training missionaries and field secretaries, and doing all of that, and and yet Mr. Friedman, just because he would not — of course, I don't know definitely what the trouble was, but he was discharged, and tha Y. M. C. A. dissolved — practically dissolved. And we had a paper in the interest of the Y. M. C. A. published— published down town and edited by the students — and this was discontinued. For the religious part of it— why, I don't see anything in that, but I don't think that ought to be done. The Chairman. How many members did the Y. M. C. A. have when it was nourishing ? Mr. Gibson. We had 275 members. The Chairman. What was it accomplishing ? What was it doing ? Mr. Gibson. Dr. Walker had a class for field secretaries, training them for field secretaries to go out to their homes, and one boy went. The Chairman. Is it a moral force, a good moral force in the school ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Arid there is now no Y. M. C. A. to speak of? Mr. Gibson. No, sir. Why, there is a few boys get together, and we are trying to establish some kind of a Y. M. C. A., but we can not. There are very few in attendance each evening. Kepresentative Stephens. Have you anj T leader ? Have you any- one to take the place of the man who was discharged ? Mr. Gibson. Mr. Friedman has taken that into his hands, and he has appointed whoever he pleased. He has appointed Mr. Mann, our mathematics teacher, and he has relieved him about two weeks, and he has appointed the clerk, Mr. Morris. Representative Stephens. Was that Y. M. C. A. a force for good among the boys, you say ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. What stand did the Y. M. C. A. take with reference to the sale of liquor among the boys ? Did they endeavor to prevent that ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. They had just taken steps. It was a young organization — not quite a year. Kepresentative Stephens. Did they discountenance the drinking of whisky and bootlegging ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Did this man who was discharged teach the boys that it was wrong to drink whisky and to bootleg ? Mr. Gibson. Why, he would sometimes take the boys and talk to them, and he had a great "deal of influence among the boys, such influence that they would listen to him whenever he was talking to them. The Chairman. How do the pupils generally regard Mr. Friedman i Do they respect him ? Mr. Gibson. In a certain way, they do. On account of his author- ity they do respect him, but as a whole they do not regard him as a man of authority. The Chairman. Do you know why that is true '. Mr. Gibson. I could not say definitely why. 992 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Do the students generally recognize the necessity for discipline and for authority in the management of the school? They understand that, do they ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, do you know why it is that he seems to have lost the influence that he should have here, if he ever had any ? Mr. Gibson. It is all on account of his management of the school, I guess. I do not know just how to put it. Representative Stephens. Have you heard them jeer him and names called when he was passing by ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. How often? Mr. Gibson. Whenever they would see him. Senator Lane. Did you ever call him any? Mr. Gibson. I have, frequently. Senator Lane. What did you call him? Mr. Gibson. I called him "Jew;" that is about all. Senator Lane. Are you the man that called him a " damned Jew" ? Mr. Gibson. No, sir; I was not. The Chairman. Is there any estrangement among the pupils fenerally and Mr. Friedman? Do the pupils generally dislike fr. Friedman ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What did you have for dinner to-night? Representative Stephens. Yes; give us the bill of fare. Senator Lane. What was the bill of fare ? Soup Mr. Gibson. Sirup. Senator Lane. Soup ? Mr. Gibson. We didn't have any. Senator Lane. What did you have for dinner? Mr. Gibson. I forget what we had. Sirup and tea, and prunes — Senator Lane. Sirup, tea, and prunes Mr. Gibson. Bread. Senator Lane. Butter? Mr. Gibson. No, sir. Senator Lane. Potatoes? Mr. Gibson. No, sir. Senator Lane. Nothing but sirup ? The Chairman. Did you have any meat ? Mr. Gibson. No, sir; we didn't have any meat. Senator Lane. Hold on; let me get that down. Sirup, tea, prunes, and bread ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Any kind of gravy? Senator Lane. Did you have gravy ? A Pupil. Yes; a meat stew, made in a kind of broth. Senator Lane. Beef stew, was it? A Pupil. Yes. Senator Lane. Any vegetables in it ? A Pupil. No, sir. Senator Lane. What did you have for breakfast this morning? Your memory is not good for your meals ? Mr. Gibson. No, sir. Senator Lane. How many prunes did you have for your ration? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 993 Mr. Gibson. I don't remember. The Chairman. Is there complaint here about the food that is served ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. . The Chairman. Has it improved recently ? Mr. Gibson. It has improved since Mr. Linnen was here. The Chairman. Much ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir; immensely. The Chairman. It is better sinc^ Inspector Linnen came than it was before ? Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is the difference between what it is now and what it was before he came ? Mr. Gibson. There is another man here can give that. TESTIMONY OF ALVIS MARTIN, STUDENT. The witness was reminded that he had been sworn. The Chairman. Where are you from ? Mr. Martin. Wisconsin. The Chairman. Now, Mr. Martin, you may go ahead. Mr. Martin. One of the reasons for the discontent in this school is that insufficient amount of food; that is, for us to eat at the meals. Bread is the main food which we are continually clamoring for. During the football season I ate on the training table so I do not know what the students' fare was, but I heard some of them remark they must have been saving up for Thanksgiving. On Thanksgiving day we get a feast, and on Christmas day. They must have been getting poor food then, because they said they must have been saving up for Thanksgiving so they could afford to give us a great deal. Immediately after Thanksgiving I heard that again. About this time the training table was dropped, and I went on the regular tables with the students, and bread — every other day we would have to cry for bread in the hall. It is a regular uproar the way the boys yell sometimes, but no bread is given them. It is in the bakery, it is in the shelves, sometimes in the kitchen, but none is there for the students. The Chairman. Let me understand you. You mean the supply of bread for the tables was so short that they made an outcry in the dining room ? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Eegularly ? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And that after the outcry was made they were unable to secure sufficient bread ? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Go ahead. Mr. Martin. There was no extra meat— not very much. On some tables nothing but a bone, and when 10 men get there there is noth- ing to eat, and they try to send in for more, and there is no meat Senator Lane. Hold on. What do you have for breakfast ordi- narily? What is the ration for breakfast? Coffee? Mr. Martin. Coffee. 35601— pt 11^-14 3 994 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Senator Lane. What else ? Mr. Martin. Oatmeal. Senator Lane. Good oatmeal ? Mr. Martin. Well, there is no sugar. It does not taste bitter, but there is no milk Senator Lane. You have sirup for breakfast? Mr. Martin. No, sir. Senator Lane. What else for breakfast? Mr. Martin. Gravy. Senator Lane. Meat gravy Mr. Martin. No, sir; just gravy Senator Lane. What meat do you have for breakfast? Mr. Martin. Tough meat. Senator Lane. I know; but how is it cooked ? Mr. Martin. I don't know how it is cooked. Senator Lane. You know the difference between roast meat and fried meat ? Mr. Martin. Roast. Senator Lane. Roast beef for breakfast ? What else do you have ? Prunes ? Mr. Martin. No, sir; no prunes. Senator Lane. Bread and butter ? Mr. Martin. No, sir; no butter. Senator Lane. How often do you have butter? Mr. Martin. Once a week. We had it here when Mr. Linnen came, however. Senator Lane. Now, what do you have for lunch, ordinarily ? Mr. Martin. Before Mr. Linnen came we had meat. Senator Lane. What do you call that, lunch or dinner? Several Boys. Dinner. Senator Lane. Now, what do you have for dinner — meat? Mr. Martin. Gravy, bread, water Senator Lane. I mean to eat. Butter? Mr. Martin. No, sir. Senator Lane. Potatoes? Mr. Martin. Once in a while, for breakfast, we have sirup. Senator Lane. I am talking about dinner — the noon meal. Mr. Martin. That is on Sunday dinner. Senator Lane. I mean on week days. Mr. Martin. Once in a while. There is nothing in the gravy. Senator Lane. Coffee or tea? Mr. Martin. No, sir; just water. Senator Lane. Any fruit of any kind ? Mr. Martin. No, sir; no fruit. Before Mr. Linnen came, if we did not have beans we had rice. Senator Lane. Rice? Mr. Martin. Rice, or else peas. Senator Lane. At night what do you get? Mr. Martin. Tea, gravy, bread — sometimes that gravy is a kind of broth. Senator Lane. What else? Mr. Martin. Once a week we get ginger cake. Senator Lane. Sirup at all times on the table ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 995 Mr. Martin. We always used to get two pitchers of sirup until a couple of months ago, but now only one once a week. Senator Lane. That is, two pitchers apiece ? Mr. Martin. One pitcher on the table. Senator Lane. How much does it hold ? Mr. Martin. One of those little pitchers. Senator Lane. How many students to a table? Mr. Martin. Ten. The Chairman. How long is that supposed to last ? Mr. Martin. Through the meal. The Chairman. How many times a week? Mr. Martin. I think we get sirup once. The Chairman. Is it a fact that students have been compelled to leave their meals hungry? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. And then they go to the store in town. There is a back store down here. The Chairman. The conditions, however, have improved since Inspector Linnen came ? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. There are always two dishes of prunes. The Chairman. You get all the gravy you want, I believe ? Mr. Martin. No, sir; not all we want. We did a year or so ago, but lately we hardly ever get the second dish. The Chairman. You were on the football team ? Mr. Martin. On the scrubs. The Chairman. They .put you on a diet ? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You were supposed to get food especially prepared, I presume ? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is there a sufficiency of knives and forks and tea- cups, and things of that sort ? Mr. Martin. There has not been. Yesterday, I think, Miss Zeamer announced that there was enough. The Chairman. How do you get along when you do not have a sufficient number to go around ? Mr. Martin. Go from one table to another, if there are any absent. Sometimes we have to go without. We' have no milk, no eggs, no buttermilk — which the farm pro- duces — and cream. Representative Stephens. Do you have sugar ? Mr. Martin. It never comes in the form of sugar. The Chairman. Do they grow potatoes on this farm ? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. This last year there were 2,330 bushels raised. The Chairman. How often do they serve potatoes ? Mr. Martin. As a rule they come on Wednesday breakfast and on Sunday dinner. Once in a while there is a couple in the gravy. The Chairman. Twice a week, then, potatoes are served ? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How often is meat served ? Is there meat served at every meal ? Mr. Martin. No; breakfast and dinner. And there is a broth at supper — gravy, and sometimes broth. 996 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Was there anything else you wanted to speak about, Mr. Martin ? Mr. Martin. Pork. This year there were 100 hogs driven to mar- ket, and they are raising hogs down here, and we have no pork from that source — no meat of that kind. The Chairman. What vegetables are supplied at these meals ? Mr. Martin. Black beans; brown beans. The Chairman. Don't they serve you turnips, onions, and salads or greens ? Mr. Martin. No salads. Senator Lane. Cabbage ? Mr. Martin. Not now. Senator Lane. In the summer time, in the season when vegetables are growing good, you have plenty of vegetables ? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir — I have not been here when they had. The Chairman. Do you have milk or sugar for your oatmeal in the morning ? Mr. Martin. No, sir. The Chairman. Do they serve oatmeal in the morning ? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir; every morning except one. Senator Lane. Have you no sugar for it ? Mr. Martin. It does not come in the form of sugar. Sometimes it is a little sweet, and other times it is not. Senator Lane. It is mixed in the kitchen ? Mr. Martin. I don't know; it must be. The Chairman. Do the boys sometimes use the same knife and fork, or drink out of the same cup ? Mr. Martin. No; they generally go without it if they do not have it. Representative Stephens. Do most of the students who come here come from the district schools on the reservation or from reservation schools ? Mr. Martin. Most of them, I think, are from the reservations. Representative Stephens. Did you come from the reservation? Mr. Martin. I lived on it all my life, but when I came here I was not. Representative Stephens. You do not know, then, of your own personal knowledge, whether they came from district schools here to this school? Mr. Martin. No. Representative Carter. What degree of blood are you ? Mr. Martin. Quarter blood. Representative Stephens. What tribe ? Mr. Martin. Chippewa. TESTIMONY OF LEWIS BRAUN, STUDENT. The witness was reminded that he had been sworn. The Chairman. Where are you from, Mr. Braun ? Mr. Braun. South Dakota. The Chairman. How long have you been in the Carlisle Institute? Mr. Braun. I came here in September, 1911. The punishments here in some cases have been brutal. There are a number of small boys who have been hit by the disciplinarian with CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 997 his fist, and there is a number of them here yet, and some of them have run away. I have the. names. Ira Cloud was hit in the eve and he has a scar by this eye where the ring on our disciplinarian's finger cut him across the eye. The Chairman. "What disciplinarian was that« Mr. Braun. The small boys' disciplinarian, Mr. Dennv Senator Lane. When did this happen ? Mr. Braun. Here lately, about two weeks ago. He has the scar Representative Carter. Mr. Denny is an Indian himself isn't he? Mr. Braun. Yes, sir. There was three boys, Eddie Adams, George Morrow, and Paul Black (Spotted Horse) were taken into Mr. Denny's office and whipped with a baseball bat, and one of them the arm was hurt so he had to go up to the hospital. Senator Lane. Struck him with a baseball bat ? Mr. Braun. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How old were the boys ? Mr. Braun. They were about 16, I guess. Representative Stephens. Which one was it that was hit with the baseball bat ? Mr. Braun. I think that was Eddie Adams. George Morrow, one of the boys, is here now. Then there is two boys, Herbert Bradley and James Kalawat. James Kalawat was punished one time for dropping a rag on top of the floor. That was on Halloween night. Mr. Denny caught him up- stairs and hit him and knocked him clear down the first flight of stairs. The Chairman. What did he hit him with ? Mr. Braun. He hit him with his fist. Milton Brave was hit in the face with his fist. Marion French was hit with his fist, and Edward Woods, a very small boy, was hit with his fist. Milford Henderson, another very small boy, about, I believe, 10 or 12 or 14 years old, was hit in the face with his fist. John Cox and David Crow The Chairman. All those were struck with the fist ? Mr. Braun. Yes, sir; the boys that are here. And then some time, two years ago, there was a boy here by the name of Louis Bear was hit over the head by a shinny club. Mr. Denny was taking the boys in there to punish them — he don't give them any chance to explain. The boys are mocking him most of the time: "What did you do?" "Why did you do that?" And if they say anything, he says, "Shut up," and he hits them. Some time ago there was two boys stole a violin, who were from the same tribe — the Skindore boys, and they took the violin down town and pawned it. Afterwards the boy that lost the violin found out about it, and Mr. Denny went down town and bought the violin, or got it out of the pawnshop, and gave it back to him, and he put the boys to work about an hour and a half that afternoon and let them go. And the boy whose violin they stole was indignant, and he reported to one of the officers here and asked him for a court-martial, and after- wards when there was a court-martial here for some other boys the other boys refused to be court-martialed unless the Skindore boys were court-martialed, and they took them up to the court-martial. Otherwise they would have gone unpunished. 998 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. That is all I have. One of the boys spoke about Sylvia Moon's case. I was one of the boys that went up to Mr. Friedman about that case. When we asked him why she was expelled, first he got mad and gave us a lecture for coming up. Finally he said she was not ex- pelled, that she was sent home as a graduate. Afterwards we wrote to her, and she answered our letter, and she said that when she was sent home she was under guard from here to Harrisburg, and had to pay the fare of the matron to Harrisburg and pay for her meals and pay for her fare to return back to the school. jpThe Chairman. What is the general condition of the discipline in the school, Mr. Braun? Mr. Braun. It seems to me as though it is partial. Some of the boys are punished very severely for merely nothing, while others are letgo for doing something The Chairman. What is the order in the school ? Mr. Braun. It is poor. The Chairman. Is it getting better or worse ? Mr. Braun. Getting worse. The Chairman. How long has it been growing worse, within your knowledge 1 Mr. Braun. When I fiist came here the order was fairly good, and there was very few cases where the boys showed any definite disre- spect for the people in charge. But here lately it is a very common thing for a boy to holler at the disciplinarian or holler at Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. What do they say? Go right ahead and tell it. Mr. Braun. "Who let him out?" One time we were having our picture taken, and Mr. Friedman was there. He had long hair, and the boys were hollering, "Why don't you get a hair cut ?" and offering to cut his hair. And they show disrespect to Mr. Denny, who is our disciplinarian over there. He talks broken English. I was talking to most of the boys — I know most of the boys — in their quarters, and I don't know one boy that respects Mr. Denny, and his influence over the boys is very poor. The Chairman. Why is that? Mr. Braun. The only reason they have for obeying him is fear of him, and the boys don't seem to have much fear. The Chairman. Do they feel any attachment toward Mr. Fried- man? Mr. Braun. None of them like Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. He is unpopular throughout the school, is he? Senator Lane. This man Denny, the disciplinarian, did he ever punish you ? Mr. Braun. He has reprimanded me, but has never punished me. The Chairman. Do you know of anybody else whipping the pupils here? Mr. Braun. I think it was last spring, about a week before we went to Washington — that was some time in the latter part of February- there were four boys in the guardhouse, Charlie Williams, Charles Bellcourt, Robert Nash, and Thomas Nicholas. They were in the guardhouse, I believe, on just cause, for they refused to play in the band. They were band boys. Sunday night at 11 o'clock Mr. Stauffer, the music teacher here, and Mr. Rudy, who was then assist- ant disciplinarian at the large boys' quarters, and Mr. Dickey, who was the outing agent here and was in charge of the large boys' quarters CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 999 as disciplinarian over there, and Mr. Warner, the athletic coach, and Mr Dietz, who is the art teacher here, went down to the guardhouse and whipped those boys. There is three of them who have gone home, but one is here yet, and I was speaking to him and he said he nad scars on him yet. The Chairman. What is his name ? Mr. Braun. Robert Nash. The Chairman. Do you know upon what authority they went and whipped them ? J Mr. Braun. I do not know, but I do know that Mr. Friedman knew about it afterwards. Representative Stephens. How do you know that? Mr. Bratjn. Because the boys reported it, and there was quite a stir around. The Chairman. Who did the whipping? Mr. Braun. Mr. Dickey. The Chairman. Do you know of the bandmaster here whipping a girl pupil ? Mr. Braun. Yes, sir; that is, I have heard about it. The Chairman. What was that case? Mr. Braun. Julia Hardin. She is here now. The Chairman. You do not know of your own personal knowledge ? Mr. Braun. No, sir; only what she has told me and what I have heard from the rest. TESTIMONY OF PETER EASTMAN, STUDENT. The witness was reminded that he had been sworn. The Chairman. What tribe do you belong to ? Mr. Eastman. The Sioux. The Chairman. How long have you been in the Carlisle Institute ? Mr. Eastman. About three years. I came about the same time Mr. Brau did. The Chairman. What class are you now in ? Mr. Eastman. Attending Conway Hall. The Chairman. Go ahead and make your statement. Mr. Eastman. I have a statement on the same subject as Mr. Braun. The first one I know personally about is strapping four boys in the guard house. I am one of the band members. The way it happened, they were supposed to have a reception here, and some- thing came up and they postponed the reception. Instead of that they wanted to have a band concert, and the boys, thinking that Mr. Stauffer was the one that caused them to postpone the recep- tion, because he was the band leader, some of them made up their minds to refuse to play and asked the band members if they would play. Some thought they would, that it was all right, and some said they would not. These four boys were considered leaders. There were three of them; one of them apologized, and the others got punished. They were taken down there and strapped. One of the boy officers, William Garlow, is here, and he knew about this. He had been advertising in the catalogue to have court-martials here. These men went down there illegally. They did not have any court-martial at all. The student body did not know about it at all: it was the officers. I understood Mr. Garlow to state that 1000 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Friedman did not know a thing about it until the next day. They were strapped, and one of the boys especially is a young man who was taken out of the band. He was the best baritone player we had, and he was taken out of the band and they won't let him play. The Chairman. Is he here now ? Mr. Eastman. No, sir; he is at the hospital. The Chairman. Where are the other boys ? Mr. Eastman. One is here with us, and the other has gone home. Senator Lane. When did this happen ? Mr. Eastman. This was last spring, just before the band went to Washington. The Chairman. What is the general state of discipline and order in the school ? Mr. Eastman. It is corrupt. They have no respect for high au- thorities here at all, especially for Mr. Friedman. I remember instances — the time I think it really started was when they took Mr. Walker out of here. They had an athletic meet out there, and he came in front with somebody and stood up in front and they told him to sit down. They kept hollering "down in front" and he sat down. And an instance that happened here lately was when he was going through quarters. He went through the quarters one night first and the boys never knew it. Of course he waked some boys up and talked to them in the middle of the night. The second time he came up it was one night in December. He came through again and the boys came out and threw shoes at him and called him names. The Chairman. Were you in on that ? Mr. Eastman. No, sir; I was not. The Chairman. You say the insubordination practically began with the dismissal of Mr. Walker, the Y. M. C. A. man ? Mr. Eastman. Some of it did. The Chairman. The students were attached to Mr. Walker, were they? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. He had the interest of the boys at heart. He had his picture taken with the student body here. And he had a little paper for the Y. M. C. A., and they had meetings here. Now you very seldom get any meetings here at all. The Chairman. The dismissal of Mr. Walker practically destroyed the Y. M. C. A. influence in the school ? Mr. Eastman. Practically destroyed it. The Chairman. Do you know why he was let go ? Mr. Eastman. No, sir; I have no personal knowledge. The Chairman. The boys were attached to him ? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. In fact, some of the boys wept when he left. The Chairman. How long has it been since he left ? Mr. Eastman. He left last spring some time. It is almost a year. The Chairman. Have you anything further ? Mr. Eastman. Well, about the boys throwing shoes at Mr. Fried- man. They told him to get out, and "Who let him loose?" and everything. They called him "Christ killer," and "Pork dodger," and "Jew." s ' About the Y. M. C. A. After the Y. M. C. A. started the boys came back this fall and I was vice president and one of the boys was president, and we tried to do all we could to get them together. We GABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1001 got a secretary here, Mr. Mann. Personally I have spoken to him quite a bit, but he is no example to the boys at all. He does not speak good English to the boys and the boys have lost all interest. Eepresentative Stephens. What is the trouble with the secretary? Mr. Eastman. He was not the man for that position. Representative Stephens. Why? Mr. Eastman. Well, I don't thhik he was fit for that position, because I have seen him speaking to boys and talking with them and the English he used was not good. Senator Lane. Is there much profanity being used on these premises ? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Is there more or less drinking ? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir; there is some drinking. Senator Lane. Is it just occasional ? There is no regular drinking on the part of anyone ? Mr. Eastman. Well, in some instances there is boys that gets drunk almost any time they want it. I have seen instances — I don't really think there is any great step taken in trying to stop this, because anyone that would try could stop it — and being in town I know very well they could stop it, because I myself coming back from school have seen boys in the hotels, and I know very well they got it. Senator Lane. You are pretty sure of that ? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir; I saw the boys, but not myself. Senator Lane. This young man says he knows the boys got this whisky at the hotels. Eepresentative Stephens. What hotels? Mr. Eastman. The Thudium House. Representative Stephens. Any other hotel ? Mr. Eastman. No; I do not recall any other hotel. Representative Stephens. What boys did you see go in? Mr. Eastman. There is one of the boys, I think, under punishment now. Representative Stephens. What is his name? Mr. Eastman. Peter Wilkie. Senator Lane. How is he being punished now ? Mr. Eastman. I do not know. He was in the guardhouse. The Chairman. Do they keep a watchman about the grounds here, or make any effort to find out when the boys come in drinking ? Mr. Eastman. Not that I know of. They have a night watchman here that is just a student watchman. The Chairman. You have no organization within the student body that is designed to protect the good name of the school from that kind of reputation ? Mr. Eastman. No, sir; the only step that was taken was that Y. M. C. A. The Chairman. You say the Y. M. C. A. did that? Mr. Eastman. The only thing that had any influence at all. Dr. Walker had an office over in the large boys' quarters— he did not stay there all the time— and in the evening he had reading and entertained the boys there himself. Senator Lane. Do you have a library here ? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir; we have a library. 1002 CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Senator Lane. How many volumes? Mr. Eastman. I do not know. Senator Lane. A large-sized library? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Are you allowed to go there in the evenings ? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Up to what hour? Mr. Eastman. From 7 to 8; and during the day, of course. Senator Lane. Now, do your hours of study here permit of your making use of that in the daytime ? Mr. Eastman. I do not, personally, now, because I do not stay up here. Senator Lane. What time do they go to bed here ? What is the hour? Mr. Eastman. Nine o'clock. The Chairman. The Y. M. C. A. appears to have been a great influence for good here ? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. At least all the students who have expressed themselves about it say so. Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And since Mr. Walker left the Y. M. C. A. has gone to pieces ; the organization has practically dissolved ? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And now you have no organization within the school that is calculated to be a moral force for the preservation of the good namaof the school? Mr. Eastman. No, sir. We have the Y. M. C. A. yet. It is called the Y. M. C. A., but it is not the same thing. The Chairman. It is not accomplishing anything ? Mr. Eastman. No, sir; it is not accomplishing anything. Representative Stephens. Who is manager of the Y. M. C. A? Mr. Eastman. Mr. Meyer. They have had three since Mr. Walker left. But the boys, knowing what Dr. Walker did for the students, found out when these other men came that they were not doing the same, so they could not take the same interest. They had Mr. Bryan from the college, and then Mr. Mann, and now they have Mr. Meyer. They used to have different speakers from town come around, and they had good meetings. The Chairman. Does Mr. Friedman take any interest in the Y. M. C. A.? Mr. Eastman. Not that I have known. He may personally, but he does not show it that I know of. I remember I was a member of the Y. M. C. A. last year until toward spring, and then I was vice president until I left. I left in April. The Chairman. How often did you have meetings? Mr. Eastman. Every Sunday evening. The Chairman. Did you have programs ? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir; we carried on a program. Sometimes somebody would speak. Other times there was testimony from the boys, what they wished to say. During the day Dr. Walker used to entertain the boys at the office there, reading and whatever they wished to do. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1003 The Chaibiiak. Did Mr. Friedman attend the meetings of the Y. M. C. A. ? Mr. Eastman. Not very frequently. During last summer I do not remember seeing him in here but just three times. One was at a reception and they had a little program in here. Another time he was m; I don't remember just what occasion it was. And the last time I have seen him here during last fall and last spring when they had a program here just for the benefit of the seniors. The seniors were supposed to give their ideas of things and speak, and after the seniors spoke he rose and spoke and gave his idea of it, and he prac- tically knocked us all on the head, almost the same as calling us a liar or something. The Chairman. He took the contrary view ? Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What were the seniors trying to do ? Mr. Eastman. I was one of the speakers, and Harrison Smith, one of the boys that was expelled. We told him what the Y. M. C. A. did for us, and I myself explained how much the boys really thought of Dr. Walker, and I think that was the first Sunday Dr. Walker was here. Of course, the boys regretted it, and they asked me to an- nounce it in the meeting, and I did. And when Dr. Friedman spoke The Chairman. What did he say ? Mr. Eastman. He said he could not prove what it did for us unless we went home and showed it among our people, I can not just say The Chairman. Anyway, he antagonized the position taken by the pupils ? Mr. Eastman. There was one instance of unjust punishment. A senior boy that was here was supposed to write a composition on citizenship. I suppose he was in the writing room, that seemed to be what he was doing, and he gave his answers, and he was put in the guardhouse. He is in there now. He is one of the boys that will talk to you. The Chairman. He was put in the guardhouse for what? Mr. Eastman. For reading a letter, I think it was. I don't ex- actly know what it is, but he is in here and could tell you about it. Senator Lane. Which one? Mr. Eastman. Alvis Martin. About the meals: We have beef. I have been in the room where they prepare this beef downstairs, where they cut it up, and it has a cement floor and everything. I was in there one time when they were cutting it, and it fell on the floor, and then they just picked it up. And sometimes we have fish and it is salty — you can hardly put it in your mouth. One time the fish smelled so you could hardly touch it, and some of the boys had to leave. Senator Lane. What kind of fish is it ? Mr. Eastman. I do not know. It is salty, I know. The Chairman. Is there anyone else who wants to be heard ? TESTIMONY OF EDWARD BRACKLIN, STUDENT. The witness was reminded that he had been sworn. Senator Lane. Where are you from? Mr. Bracklin. Wisconsin. The Chairman. How long have you been m school at Carlisle ( 1004 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Beacklin. I have been here four years. The Chairman. Have you ever had any trouble with Superin- tendent Friedman? Mr. Bracklin. No, not to amount to anything. Last spring when I wanted to go home, my time had expired then, and I asked him if I could go home, and he said no. I had to wait untilJune,but finally he gave me consent, and that is the only trouble I have had with him. The Chairman. What is the estimation in which he is held by the student body in Carlisle ? Mr. Bracklin. According to what I have seen I do not think it is a very high estimation. The Chairman. What in your judgment is the reason he is not respected by the students, if he is not ? Mr. Bracklin. All of it has been referred to, but it is this unjust punishment that has been referred to that led the boys to sort of rebel, and not giving the boys a voice that they should have in the office over there. Any time a boy goes over there and wants to make a complaint he threatens them with punishment. Of course, the boys come back to quarters here and kind of go to the other side of the question and take it in their own hands. The Chairman. He refuses to hear their grievances ? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And consider their complaints, and they then become resentful? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And, as you say, try to take the matter into their own hands ? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Go ahead and make your statement. Mr. Bracklin. The statement I want to make is on the health conditions. Over here in the large boys' quarters they are not sup- plied well enough with towels. We get one towel a week to wash with, and some get a bath towel. The way the boys go around here, that is not sufficient for anybody. Senator Lane. What is it ? A roller towel or ordinary size ? Mr. Bracklin. One little towel it used to be, but now they have this sanitary towel in rolls. It is a kind of blotting paper. Senator Lane. Don't you get enough of that? Mr. Bracklin. I don't really know over there, but lots of times they do not get enough of it. I room over in the athletic quarters, and I have heard the boys complain that they do not get enough towels. This paper runs out, and they have to go up in their rooms and wipe their faces with the sheets or pillow cases or anything they can get hold of. This gymnasium down hire— this place here should be kept just as clean as anywhere else, because the students come here and drill, and hire they spend their social evenings all together. Of course, I hold Mr. Friedman responsible for that condition, that he should keep it clean. You can go right down there and look around the pipes and it is nothing but tobacco spit and dirt all around the pipes and wall. Senator Lane. The students do that themselves, don't they? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Do they chew tobacco ? CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1005 Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And smoke cigarettes ? Mr. Bracklin. Yes. Senator Lane. Can not the boys have a rule to regulate the con- duct of the students ? Mr. Bracklin The way we look at it that would be stepping over Mr. Friedman s head, taking the authority into our own hands Senator Lane. You think that is for him to do ? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Did you ever complain to him about the condition of it and call his attention to it ? Mr. Bracklin. Not that I know of. Senator Lane. Does he ever inspect the place ? Mr. Bracklin. I do not think so. If he did he would have it cleaned. About fire drills, there is not enough of that, which, of course, treats under health conditions. Now, the only time they have fire drills over here — -they never have them over here in the boys' quarters. They have them over in the girls' quarters . The only time they have a fire drill is when a moving picture man comes over here and takes the picture. The Chairman. Is that literally true ? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is the object in having fire drills in the girls' quarters and not in the boys' quarters. Is there any reason assigned for it ? Mr. Bracklin. In my opinion it is just to cause a little excitement on the campus through the moving pictures. The Chairman. To make a show ? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, have you a fire organization among the boys in the school ? Who is the fire chief ? Mr. Bracklin. The fire chief is Mr. Weberton, the plumber. The Chairman. Have you a fire company among the boys? Mr. Bracklin. Not that I know of. I do not know of any. They might have. The Chairman. Did you ever see them drill here on the premises? Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. The Chairman. What fire escapes are there on the girls' buildings ? Mr. Bracklin. Well, on those porches there is two, I think. They are made out of this pipe, and they only lead down to the second floor and there the girls have to slide on this pipe down to the second floor, and from there I suppose they go inside and run down the stairs. The Chairman. There is no way to get out on the fire escapes from the second floor at all, then ? Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. The Chairman. Are the fire escapes on the girls' buildings ade- quate otherwise than that? Is there enough of them? Mr. Bracklin. I do not think so. The Chairman. There are only two on the building, you say ? Mr. Bracklin. Two on each floor coming down. The Chairman. What fire escapes are there on the boys' buildings ? Mr. Bracklin. The same thing. 1006 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Do you know how long they have been in use ? Mr. Bracklin. No, sir; they were here when I came. The Chairman. The fire-escapes on the boys, building extend to the ground, or near enough, don't they? You do not know about that? Mr. Bracklin. No. The Chairman. Go ahead. Mr. Bracklin. The fire escapes over in the athletic quarters on the east side — I think there is five or six of those steps taken out. If there should happen to come a fire, how is a boy going to escape down those fire escapes ? Senator Lane. How do they come to be out? Mr. Bracklin. I think Mr. Friedman gave an order to take them out because the boys oftentimes went down these stairs to go out on the athletic field. Senator Lane. Are they wooden steps? Mr. Bracklin. No ; they are iron. The Chairman. Don't the boys use them to slip out sometimes and steal away from school ? Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. I don't know whether to speak of the girls' quarters or not. The girls' windows are nailed down. The bottom sash is nailed solid to the top, and the only way they can get any fresh air is to have a little opening on top and they can not open the bottom sash up. The Chairman. Do you know why that is done ? Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. The Chairman. I presume that is done to keep them from passing in and out of the rooms through the windows. Mr. Bracklin. I do not think they could pass down there and jump to the ground. The Chairman. You do not think it would be necessary to fasten the windows for that purpose ? Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. The Chairman. On the second floor, you mean ? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. The girls do not room on the first floor, only on the west side. The Chairman. What about the bedding in the boys' quarters ? Mr. Bracklin. The bedding is all right, I think. Of course, it is a little hard, and there is no springs to it. The Chairman. But you think you can make out on that very well ? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You have no complaint on that account ? Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. The boys' punishment in the guardhouse — the boys go down there being punished for some mischief of any kind, and they put them down there, and if he has done any serious crime they feed him on two sandwiches a day — meat sandwiches. The Chairman. Do you mean to say that part of the punishment imposed on a refractory student is starving him ? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is that universally done ? Mr. Bracklin. It has been done here for the last two months. If these boys work they get one regular meal a day at the noon hour. The Chairman. The boys in the guardhouse ? CAELISLE INDIAN SCIIOOL. 1007 Mr. Beacklin. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. If they work ? Mr. Beacklin. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What kind of work would that be ? Mr. Beacklin. The boys that work in the guardhouse have to go down to the boiler house and shovel coal. Senator Lane. Firing? Mr. Beacklin. They have a place where they can haul the coal from and get it handy to the boders. TheCHAiEMAN. They do not work them on two sandwiches a day ? Is there anything else Senator Lane. What are the sandwiches composed of ? Mr. Beacklin. Meat. And their bedding — they do not get any mattress, just these iron strips. No bedding, only their mattress. Possibly, sometimes they steal a pillow and take it down there, but no mattress. TheCHAiEMAN. Part of the punishment, then, is a bad bed? Mr. Beacklin. Yes, sir. Representative Caetee. How many boys have been put in the guardhouse within the last three months ? Mr. Beacklin. I could not say for certain. There has been some there all through. Representative Caetee. How many have been in the guardhouse during the last month ? Senator Lane. Does anybody know? A Pupil. Probably eight or nine. Representative Caetee. How many were in there last week? A Pupil. Four, I think. Representative Caetee. How may are in there now ? A Pupil. I am sure I can not say. Three, I think. Representative Caetee. What are they in there for ? Mr. Beacklin. There was seven in there this noon. Representative Caetee. What are they in for ? Mr. Beacklin. Some for being drunk; most of them for being drunk. Representative Caetee. Anything else ? Mr. Beacklin. No, sir; I don't know anything. Representative Caetee. What is the procedure for placing the boy in the guardhouse ? Do they give him a trial or anything ? Mr. Beacklin. Why, there used to be, but it has not been done lately. They used to court-martial him, but it has not been done for a long time — since last spring, I think. The Chairman. Who has the power to send him to the guard- house Mr. Beacklin. Sometimes these boys, when they were court- martialed, they were fined possibly $2; possibly $10. Senator Lane. Cash fine ? Mr. Beacklin. If the boy has cash, he pays. Sometimes he has money up here in the office, and they take it out. Senator Lane. What is done with that money ? Mr. Beacklin. They claim that they buy magazines and papers for the large boys' quarters. Representative Caetee. You have not told us who sentences these boys to the guardhouse. 1008 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Bracklin. Who takes them down? Representative Carter. No; who has the right to say that they shall or shall not go there ? Mr. Bracklin. Why, I think the disciplinarian has that part 01 it. Representative Carter. Who is he? Mr. Bracklin. Mr. McKean. Representative Carter. Does Mr. Friedman have anything to do with that ? , , Mr. Bracklin. I should judge that Mr. McKean has orders from Mr. Friedman. Representative Carter. But you don't know that? lhat is your judgment ? Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. Representative Carter. Do they always put a boy in the guard- house when he gets drunk ? Mr. Bracklin. Why, that is if they know he is drunk. Lots of them they do not find out. Representative Carter. Do you know anything about how these boys get this whisky ? Mr. Bracklin. Not positively; only what I have heard. Representative Carter. What do you hear about it ? Mr. Bracklin. Sometimes they go down here in town and get these bootleggers, of course. They are blacks mostly. They get them to go and get the whisky for them, and the negroes bring it to them. Representative Carter. The negro goes to the saloon and buys it? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir; possibly sometimes the whites. Representative Carter. What does the boy pay for it ? Mr. Bracklin. I could not say, sir. Representative Carter. But the negro gets a profit. He does not do that through friendship ? Mr. Bracklin. Possibly not. Representative Carter. You never bought any yourself ? Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. Representative Stephens. Do you know the names of any of these fellows that do that ? Mr. Bracklin. No ; I do not know them. Representative Carter. Can you give us the name of anybody that could tell of us of any ? Mr. Bracklin. I think Mr. Charles Kelsey could tell you. Representative Carter. Is he a student? Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Is there anybody else ? Mr. Bracklin. I could not say for sure who would tell, but there is lots of them that gets it, I guess. It would be pretty hard to get them to tell who they get it from. Representative Stephens. Can any of you young men, or ladies either, give us the names of any of these bootleggers in this town, black or white, male or female? Don't all speak at once. Mr. Eastman. I could not say any name, but I have seen boys at this house I told you about — the hotel. Representative Stephens. Can you give us the names of boys that would know ? Mr. Eastman. I do not know whether I could give the name or not. Representative Stephens. You gave his name a while ago ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1009 Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. us thf^ tat r e S ™phen S . Can any of the rest of you boys hav; mads, for the way people look down on the rest of we girls that are trying to do right. & The Chairman. Do you want to give them ? Miss . Yes, sir. The Chairman. AH right. Who are they ? Miss • — . They are , — ■ , , and — — . These girls met the boys down in the bathroom, and they were only put in the lockup for a week. The Chairman. What bathroom do you refer to ? Miss — — — . Our bathroom in the girls' quarters. Then there has Deen some girls expelled for bad conduct, that is, for the same reason, but it did not give right out what they were expelled for. To just go back, they certainly deserved to be expelled, but they just put down "time out." Here is one case : . She got into trouble out in he country, and she was sent home from out in the country; also this — . She came in the fall of 1911, and she was in the condition that she ought not to be with younger girls here, and she went to the country, and she came- back and stayed until Christmas in the hospital, I think it was. She was taken to the hospital, and from there, I guess, after she had childbirth, she was sent home. Representative Carter. What was her name ? Miss — . . She was a Sioux girl. Senator Lane. When was this? Miss . 1911. The Chairman. Have there been many cases of that sort? Miss . There has been, similar to that; but we think it is Mr. Friedman's place to find out the conditions of the girls when they come here. And such cases have existed before; that is, the girls have been in that condition before coming here, and they are not here long enough before they are sent back home. Of course that reflects on the school. The Chairman. There is no doubt about that. Senator Lane. What did she say about this young lady that became a mother? Miss . Just sent home on leave. Eepresentative Carter. How long was she here, Miss ? 35601— pt 11—14 5 1026 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Miss I really don't know just when she came, and I w as at the hospitnl at the time she returned from the country. That was in the fall. Representative Carter. Can you estimate how long it was? Miss . I was there all whiter during the year of 1911, and she came along about October. Representative Carter. And when did she leave? Miss . She was sent to this hospital — the Maternity Hospital in Philadelphia — along about Christmas time. Representative Carter. In 1911 ? Miss Yes, sir; or February, and she was not there two weeks when she had her child; and I guess after she was able she was sent home. Mr. Friedman was going to allow this girl to stay here at this hospital and have her child, and of course all this time the stu- dents were laughing about it and taking it as a joke. Some of the girls got up a petition and took it to Mr. Friedman, but he did not pay any attention to their pleas about this thing; but finally they got up a petition and got the girls to sign it, asking for this girl to be sent to some hospital in Philadelphia. Of course, after he saw this peti- tion, he had the girl taken to the hospital; but I think that if the girls had hot got this petition he would have left her here; and, of course, that would have been some disgrace to this institution. The Chairman. There is no doubt. That is a very embarrassing and regrettable incident. Wherein do the young ladies blame Mr. Friedman for that ? What do they think he should have done that he did not do or that he did do that he should not have done ? Miss . I should think he would have sent this girl home as soon as he found out she was this way. Instead of that he kept her here at the hospital and had her promenading from the hospital to his office. The Chairman. And then, when she was sent home, the entry in the record was a false one ? Miss . Yes, sir. The Chairman. As to the reason? Miss . Yes, sir. Another incident is • . She worked for the Warners, while her sweetheart was a photographer down here. Of course, he was an Indian boy, and he was studying the photograph trade. I worked at Warners myself, and — was working up there, and she was left alone, I suppose. Mrs. Warner had gone to Harrisburg, or somewhere else, and Mr. Warner was attending to his duties around on the grounds, and this young man went over there and paid her a visit, and Mr. Weber saw him go in there, and he knew that the Warners were not home, and he reported it to the head- quarters up at the office, and Mr. Friedman said it was all right, there was no harm. Shortly after that that girl was sent home in disgrace. Senator Lane. Where was she from? Miss . She was from Wisconsin. Representative Carter. She was a student at that time ? Miss . She was a student. Representative Carter. What was she? A Chippewa? Miss . Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Are you a Chippewa ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1027 Miss . Yes, sir. That is about all about expelling. Of course, these other girls had reasons for being expelled. Thev were put down "expelled" and some, "failed to return." The Chairman. Do you know why that is done? Do you know what the reason is for making that false record ? Miss ■ The only way I can see is that Mr. Friedman has expelled so many students with such little reason he is ashamed to put down on the record "expelled." The Chairman. But hi at least some of these cases the expulsion was imperative. What is the motive, if you know it, or can explain it, for not stating the actual reason for the expulsion? Miss . As the girls were expelled, I guess he saw he had expelled some girls without reason, and when he came to the real reason he was so ashamed to put down what the reason was The Chairman. He thought that to disclose the real facts in con- nection with that would reflect upon the students of the school ? Miss . Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, I take it you are a representative student here, from your appearance and manner, and the fact that you act as one of this committee. How long have you been in this school ? Miss . I am going on my fifth year. I came August 27, 1909. The Chairman. Have you had any trouble in the matter of dis- cipline since you have been in the school ? Miss . No, sir; I have always tried to carry myself as a lady. The Chairman. And you have never been disciplined seriously ? Miss . No, sir. The Chairman. What is the estimation in which the superin- tendent is held by the young lady pupils in the school ? Miss . Well, as a rule, I don't think you will find one out of every ten of the girls that have any respect for Mr. Friedman — or for his wife, as far as that is concerned. The Chairman. Both of them lack the confidence and the respect of the pupils ? Miss . Yes, sir. In the first place, his wife is not the woman that ought to be on the grounds for we girls to follow the example, because the way she goes around here on the campus sometimes is simply disgraceful. We girls have seen her time and again when the boys were playing on their instruments over here, when they happened to be coming from the club she would go out here and skirt-dance and kick until you could see up to her knees. Mr. Denny was standing there one time when she was performing these acts. Senator Lane. Was her husband around ? Miss . Once, that I remember of. He was coming up here when he had just come out of the dining hall, and he was coming up, and he called out to her, "Oh, honey, I will pay for it," and she said, "I have paid for it already." And it just happened some of the boys were playing on their trombones, and she started on her skirt-dance, and she went on — well, she carried it a little too far, and after Mr. Friedman got up on the porch they started to play peek-a-boo around those pillars there, and they acted what I would call silly for a man that was ruling over the students that are here. 1028 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. They went in, and they have presented such conduct at our evening gatherings here on different occasions. Senator Lane. You know of occasions, you say, when they set that kind of example before the students ? Miss . Yes, sir. At these dances when the orchestra is playing Mrs. Friedman goes around with her skirt up to her knees. Anybody could tell you that she has presented herself m that respect. Representative Stephens. Was he there ? Miss . Yes, sir; he was there, and he would go around. And the way Mr. Friedman yells at the girls — he does not speak to us like a gentleman should speak to young girls that he was trying to make ladies of. He would yell, "Hello, there," instead of saying "Good morning," or tipping his hat. He would talk to us as if we did not have any manners. The Chairman. And those instances have caused the young ladies in the school to lose all respect for him ? Miss . Yes, sir. Another incident: One day I was coming over from one of the teacher's rooms, and there was several girls playing on the band stand, and he happened to be coming up on this farther walk, and he was coming down the middle walk, and these girls were playing. Of course, that is the only recreation time we have, after school. And it happened they were playing up there puss-in-a-corner, and they were screaming and enjoying themselves. And he said, "Oh, there, you savages," or, "Oh, you savages" — -he called them savages anyhow, and I thought it was very rude of him. Another time as I was coming up the steps, he said, "Hello, there," and I spoke to him. I said, "Good evening." He went on; I don't know where he was going. That is not the only time he called the girls savages. The Chairman. What age are you ? Miss . I am 19. I will be 20 next month. The Chairman. You eat with the pupils in the dining room, do you? Miss . No, sir; at the big dining room. The Chairman. Where the young lady students eat ? Miss . Yes, sir. The Chairman. What about the food that is being served over there? Miss — . The food we have been having lately is somewhat better than it has been. The Chairman. Since when ? Miss . Since Mr. Linnen has been there. The Chairman. Since the inspector came ? Miss . Yes, sir. The Chairman. Can you tell us in what particular it has been improved ? Miss . For a while here we students were not allowed a second helping of bread at all. Of course, we girls do not need it as much as the boys, because the boys work harder, and they do not allow the boys as much bread— well, in fact, the whole student body did not have enough bread at all. And there would be lots of bread in the kitchen, as one of the boys stated. Representative Stephens. What do they do with it? OABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1029 \ 11SS ~T : j I don't know. And when we asked the dining-room ■ matron she said that was Mr. Friedman's orders. He would cafl them Xw §T th T^w Ctl °, n r S - J^ en we asked Mr - Zeamer about ^tead he said, "That is Mr. Friedman's orders " ihe Chairman. What is one helping? Miss Two plates on each table. The Chairman. And how many ladies « Miss . Ten at each table. The Chairman. How many pieces of bread are there on it i What 1 am trying to get at is whether they were making a reasonable allowance. Senator Lane. More than one slice apiece? Miss '-. Sometimes just one slice. Representative Stephens. How large a piece would that be« Miss • . About that large, I suppose [indicating!. Kepresentative Stephens. About 3 inches square ? Miss . Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. How thick? Miss . Just the wav the girls cut it— sometimes an inch thick. Representative Stephens. Never over an inch thick? Miss . No, sir. Lately we have been having two or three vegetables. Senator Lane. That is something unusual? Miss . Yes, sir; that is unusual. Representative Stephens. Since when did you get vegetables ? Miss . We have canned tomatoes, canned peas, corn — since Mr. Linnen has been here. As to knives and forks and spoons, we have not had them until yesterday morning, I think it was. Representative Carter. You had to use your fingers ? _ Miss . We use our bread to sop up our gravy. When a girl would get through with her spoon, if we happened to have a dessert we would wash it out in our cups and use that. Now, about Mr. Stauffer. Last spring he bought a mandolin from one of the girls, and this mandolin was a $25 mandolin; that is, with a leather case, and the instrument. And the girl, while she is a food player on the instrument, she wanted the use of the mandolin erself , and she wanted to buy this mandolin, and she made arrange- ments with the girl, and the girl was going to sell it to her for $5, and she was willing. The mandolin had a little repairing to be done. She had it all that summer, and then she took it to Mr. Stauffer, and Mr. Stauffer had it, and sent away and had it repaired, and this girl told Mr. Stauffer she was going to buy this mandolin, and he asked her for how much, and she told him $5. Miss Bradley was the one that wanted to buy this mandolin. In the meantime Miss Bradley spoke to the owner of this mandolin and told her she need not pay any attention to the repairs, that she would pay for them, and this girl was going to sell it for $3 without the repairing. So this girl, Miss Bradley, wrote to her father and explained the matter of the mandolin to him and told him how much she was going to pay for the mandolin, and her father wrote and told her not to take advantage of the. girl, and so she wrote again and 1030 CAHUsr.E INDIAN SCHOOL. told him about $1 5 was what 4io was going to pay. In the meantime her father wrote, and he was going to send her the money. In the meantime Mr. Stauffer got hold of this Miss Simpson and told her he wanted to buv the mandolin. "Of course," he says, "it will be sometime before "Miss Bradley will pay you," or something like that. He made some kind of excuse. So this girl gave him the mandolin, and he paid her right there cash $5. And this fall when he organized a new mandolin club for the year he sold this same man- dolin, that he paid $5 for, to one of the girls that had been out in the country — and I guess she had very little means herself — for $15; and thereby he made $10, when the girl was going to pay the full price herself. And Mr. Stauffer told Miss Bradley about it. Of course, Miss Bradley could not do anything about it then. She had to drop it then. Representative Carter. Miss — , you made a very serious charge there against Mrs. Friedman, and I want to ask you, Is she always in those moods, doing those things ? Miss . Every time I see her she is carrying on somewhat simple. She does not carry herself as a woman ought to for us to follow an example by, but she always has those simple ways about her. Representative Carter. Is she always in that hilarious mood of Avantmg to kick? Miss . Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Nearly all the time? Miss . Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Is that just animal spirits ? Miss . I guess so. Senator Lane. Full of life, is she? Miss . Yes, sir. They always talk about we girls and the way we comb our hair, and using powder and paint, and some of the girls see Mrs. Friedman with this paint and powder, and blacking her eyebrows, and I think if she does it they ought not to blame us. Of course, you could not blame any of the girls that see anyone with high authority over there doing such a thing. The Chairman. That Mr. Stauffer that you referred to — do you know of his beating a young lady pupil here ? Miss . I heard of it. The Chairman. What was her name ? Miss . . The Chairman. Is she here now ? Miss . Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Who is he < The Chairman. He is the bandmaster. Representative Stephens. Is he still in the school ? Miss . Yes, sir. As to the lockups. When Miss Ridenour puts the girls in there she gives them very little exercise and very little fresh air, and very little water or food to eat and drink. The Chairman. What does she give them ? Miss . Just what they get in the dining room, but not as much as they would get if they went to the table. This lockup is in the back part — what we call the sky-parlor hall. It is a very dark room, and there is no ventilation there at all. It is anything but CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1031 sanitary. There is only one window, and that leads into the uniform room, and one or two windows are left in that uniform room, but our uniforms collect all the fresh air. The girls that I stated being put in there for meeting these boys, at the time they were in there, they did not have enough water the greater part of the time the}' were there, and the girls in the next room had to pour water through paper funnels those girls had made, and that is the way they had enough to drink. Whereas when the other matron was here -Miss Gaither- she showed the girls some respect, and she talked to them as a mother would, and during the day she would let the girls go down to the laundry and work — and of course, the girls got plenty of fresh air and exercise — and in the evening they would go back to the lockup and stay there for the night. She did not keep them there a week, but two or three days. We girls thought it was a disgrace then, when Miss Gaither was here, to put anyone in the lockup, but since Miss Kidenour has been here we girls have not looked at it in that way. The Chairman. How many young ladies or girls have been con- fined in the lockup during the last school year? Miss 1 am sure 1 could not tell, but there is more than all the while Miss Gaither was here. The Chairman. How long was Miss Gaither here >. Miss . She was here three or four years. Anyhow, she was here before I came; she was here all the while I was here up to last spring. The Chairman. Do the rules of the school prescribe what offenses shall be punished by confinement ? Miss — . No, sir. The Chairman. That is left to the matron, is it not? TV/ficc ~V"CS SU'. The Chairman. For what offenses are the girls usually confined in the lockup ? Miss . Miss Gaither Tho Chairman. I mean now. Miss . Oh, for "sassing," and different things like that. And sometimes Miss Eidenour is really to blame for the girls sassing her, because she really does not speak to we girls as a matron ought to. We realize that she has 200 or 300 girls to look after but at the same time she ought to treat us as our own mothers would, for that is th^. intentions of her being here. And instead of that she nags at the girls and snaps at us when we go to ask her for anything, until it is just through fear that we go to her. I think the other girls have more to say. TESTIMONY OF MISS ■ The witness was reminded that she had been sworn. The Chairman. Where are you from ? Mi ss My home is in Kansas. The Chairman. How long have you been in Carlisle '. Miss ■ Two years in December. The Chairman. What is your age ? Miss • I was 18 in December. . . Tli? Chairman. What do you want to present to the commission £ 1032 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Miss - I want to talk more about the expelling. When I came hero Miss Gaither was the matron. Of course, Miss Gaither — we used to go in Miss Gaither and confide in her and tell her our troubles, and sh" was willing to tell us what to do, to tell us the best thing to do, and help us in every way she could. And we girls loved Miss Gaither. Representative Carter. When did Miss Gaither leave here? Miss . Last January. Representative Carter. A year ago* Miss . A year ago. Representative Carter. Where is she now? Miss . In Phoenix, Ariz. Representative Carter. Why did she leave here ? Miss . They said she did not control the girls right, what I heard. So Miss Gaither used to always talk to us girls. When we heard Miss Gaither was going to leave us, everybody — the girls all cried, they felt so bad she was going away. When she told us she was going away, of course, we did not want her to go, and we asked her where she was going. She told us one time she did not have the support of Mr. Friedman. In the spring, when I came here, there was — I can name the girls, but I can not count them: , — , , and they made dates with the boys, and the boys came over to the girls' quarters and met them in an empty room. The Chairman. When was that? Miss . In the spring I came here; that was 1912, I think it was. The Chairman. Are there many other instances of that sort that come to the knowledge of the young lady pupils that you hear of ? Miss . There is not many, but there is a few. The Chairman. What suggestion have you young ladies who want to preserve your own reputation and the reputation of the school blameless, for the prevention of those things ? What do you think ought to be done that is not being done ? Miss . We think they ought to be expelled. We think we do not want to associate with such girls. The Chairman. You regard that as the most serious offense that could be committed ? Miss . Yes, sir. The Chairman. And instead of expelling the girls for mere displays of temper, or what they call impudence, a premium ought to be placed on refined moral conduct by expelling those who are guilty of lax morals ? Miss . Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know of cases where those things have occurred and where there has been no serious discipline of the offend- ers? Miss . This is just the case I am trying to tell you about. These girls met the boys for quite a while, and Miss Gaither wanted the girls to be expelled, and Miss Gaither asked the girls what we thought about it, and we told her that we thought that the girls ought to be expelled, and Mr. Friedman did not expel them. They were sent home, and one girl, , was charged with forgery. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1033 It was up in town, and they sent her home, but did not oxpol her. She was in the courts down town, or in Harrisburg, and the school got her clear of that. Then she went and got in this trouble, and they did not expel her. She went home. The Chairman. Were all the young ladies in that trouble you referred to — meeting young men in the vacant room — were they all permitted to go and sent home without expulsion ? Miss . I think so. The Chairman. Do you know of other cases that you want to present ? Miss . When Miss Ridenour came here, of course these girls were, here, some of these girls were here that were in this, and of course Miss Gaither did not have the support of Mr. Friedman, and when Miss Gaither was here there was another case of a boy meeting a girl, and her name was , and the boy came to this girl's room. They did not find it out — Miss Gaither did not find it out, and the day Miss Gaither found it out — the next day this girl was going to go to Philadelphia to sing in some kind of church meet- ing. The day before she was to go Miss Gaither took this case up to Mr. Friedman, and Mr. Friedman became angry with Miss Gaither and said she should not have brought that case up until after the girl came back. We think Mr. Friedman used to let those girls go because they had some accomplishment in a certain way; he wanted put them up before the public and represent them as the school's best. Senator Lane. She had a good voice, had she ? Miss . She had a good voice; she had a loud voice. But Miss Gaither would not consent to this girl going, so she did not go. She was expelled, though. Representative Stephens. Did they send her home? Miss . Yes, sir; she was expelled. There is another girl out in the country now. Her name is — - . She ran away from here. I don't know just when she ran away, but they caught her, and she went to the country, and when she was in the country she ran away, and I guess she was loafing around the highways; she was on a track, and she met a tramp, and she was with a tramp a couple of days. She stayed all night with him in the barn. And some people took it up, and she was brought back to- the school and put in the lockup, and Miss Gaither wanted her expelled, and Mr. Friedman would not expel her. Senator Lane. How old was she? Miss . She is 16 or 17. Miss . She is out in the country now. The Chairman. Still in connection with the school? Miss . Still in connection with the school. I want to say a little about the general feeling. The girls do not like our matron. The Chairman. Why? Miss . She treats us mean. The Chairman. She is not congenial to you, and I believe you stated she would not receive vour confident e? Miss . The girls here ar(; afraid of her. I hey won t go to her. Of course, we realize that some people are gifted with quick tempers, but she always snaps us up when we go to her. lf).°)4 CARLISLE INT>T.\X SCHOOL. The Ch.urm.vx. SJio does nol invile your con:h\ien< o, and does not give you tliat friendlv supervision that you believe you are entitled to ? Miss No, 'sir. The Chairman. But you did appreciate Miss Gaither ? Miss - - . Yes, sir'; the girls all loved Miss Gaither. Senator Laxk. Wen 1 there more eases of immorality during Miss Gaither' s time than there has been since then, or not? Miss - -. The ease that the lady told you about — the girls are still here yet. Senator Lane. Is the percentage of immorality on the increase since Miss Gaither left, or is it about the same ? Were all these cases you have told us about when Miss Gaither was here ? Miss . No; there has not been so many, but we girls think that would not have been so if Miss Gaither had had the support of Mr. Friedman. Representative Stephens. If he had supported her and expelled the girls Miss . Yes, sir. But there has been one case. When Miss Ridenour came here — of course, she has been around, and she talked as if she would stop everything like that, but there was a case after she came. Representative Carter. Do you know how many ? Miss . No, sir; I do not. Representative Carter. Quite a good many ? Miss . No; there has not been so many. I just think of that case that the girls told me about. The Chairman. You think that if severe penalties were promptly enforced against young ladies who offend against the moral proprie- ties, that would tend to prevent the frequency of those incidents? Miss . Yes, sir. The Chairman. You think that is the remedy for it ? ■ Miss Yes, sir. We girls do not agree to putting girls that are impudent in the same class as those immoral cases. And the girls do not respect our matron. They do not respect her. The Chairman. What sort of quarters have the young lady pupils ? Are your quarters satisfactory ? Miss . Yes; we have very nice rooms. The Chairman. Is domestic science taught in this school? Miss . No, sir. The Chairman. What do you learn here? What do you study? Miss . We go to school, and we take sewing. We choose — we can go to the laundry, we can take sewing The Chairman. You have no opportunity to learn housekeeping? Miss . We can work in the house. The Chairman. You are not taught that? Miss No; you are supposed to go to the country. The Chairman. On your outing parties? Miss . Yrs, sir. Representative Stephens. Do you know anything about cooking? Miss . Yes; but they do not teach it here; they do out in the. country. Senator Lane. Were you out in the country? Miss , Yes, sir. Senator Lake. What did vou do? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1035 Miss . Most everything. Senator Lane. Housework? Miss . Yes, sir. Senator Lane. On the farm? Miss . No, sir. Senator Lane. In the city? Miss . Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What salary did you receive i.>r that; what compensation ? Miss . The first year I went out I went to Ocean City, and I got $12 a month, and the last time $10 a month. The Chairman. What work were you assigned to at Ocean City? Miss I took care of the house and did the washing and ironing. The Chairman. Who were you with? Miss . George Patten, of Philadelphia. The Chairman. Of whom did his family consist? Miss . Why, he, his wife, and a little girl, and a grand- mother and an old maid aunt. The Chairman. Were they refined people? Miss . Very refined. The Chairman. Did they treat you well and were you pleased with your service among them ? Miss . Yes; they treated me very nice. The Chairman. Did you feel you were benefited by that experience? Miss Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who selected the home for you to go to % Miss ■ Miss Jennie Gaither. The Chairman. The outing agent? Miss . No. The Chairman. How long has Mrs. La Flesche been here ? Miss . I do not know. She was here when I came. The Chairman. What is her position ? Miss . I do not know what you call it. She gets the homes for the girls. Representative Carter. Did you know anything tbout the voting lad)" that was in jail down in Carlisle during the holidays- -was there a young lady in jail ? Miss — . Down town during the holidpys? Representative Carter. Yes. Miss . No; I do not know any thing .about that, only what I heard. That is another case. Whe met the boys in the girls' quarters. Another thing we do not approve of. We do not think cr.-its like that ought to be taken outside and be made public, end go to court every time. We think there are wpas they can punish the students in a way without taking them and letting the public know (.bout such things. Representative Carter. Was she punished for what happened here on the school grounds ? Miss . She was in' the lockup for awhile. The Chairman. In the county jail? Miss . Yes: in the county jail. The Chairman. With the general criminals? 1036 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Miss . I don't know. Representative Carter. Was it for sonething that happened here on the school grounds '(■ Miss -. For something that happened here on the school grounds. The Chairman. Do you know who made the charge against her and had her confined in the jail ? Miss — . I think Miss Ridenour did. Senator Lane. What has become of the child now ? Where is she ? Miss . I am sure I don't know. Senator Lane. How old a girl is she ? Miss . I don't know her very well. Miss . 18. Senator Lane. Mr. Rupley states that under the laws of the State of Pennsylvania the offense for which this young lady was imprisoned was what is commonly known as fornication, and under the laws of Pennsylvania is a crime punishable by fine and costs. TESTIMONY OF MISS . The witness was reminded that she had been sworn. The Chairman. Where are you from, Miss ■ — ? Miss — . I am from Oklahoma. The Chairman. How long have you been in this school ? Miss . I came here September 10, 1911. Representative Carter. What part of Oklahoma are you from ? Miss . When I left home my home was between the towns of Shawnee and Tecumseh, about the center part of the State. Representative Carter. What are you ? A Pottawatomie ? Miss . Yes, sir. Representative Carter. What have you got that you want to tell us about? Miss . I have the case regarding our religion. This last fall in September the Catholics were denied the privilege of going down to confession and communion. Since the time of Col. Pratt Catholic students have always been allowed to go to early mass alternately, the boys one Sunday and the girls the next. The early mass is at 8 o'clock. When we asked the reason why we were deprived of this privilege they said we had no chapcrone. Well, since the time of Col. Pratt the Catholic students have always been allowed to go to mass in care of their officers, and that practice has been kept up from his time until last fall, and there never has been a case that we could trace back of any student making dates or doing anything wrong when they went down to early mass, and they have always been in the care of their officers. When we asked where we would get a chaperone the matron told us that she did not know. Well, if we are deprived of going to mass be- cause we have no chaperone, I should think it would be the superin- tendent's place to provide a chaperone for us, since he cut that out. On Saturdays we go to town every other week, the boys one week and the girls the next. We go to town in groups of three without a chape- rone, and we are there, and we meet all kinds of people on the street, are in and out of the various stores, and in the moving pictures, and other places, without a chaperone. Now, because 15 to 30 girls CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1037 want to go to early mass to receive the sacrament and confession and communion, we are denied that right because we have no chape- rone, but we are allowed to go to town without a chaperone. The Chairman. How many Catholic girls are there in trie school * Miss . I could not say how many Catholic girls. The stu- dents are about half Catholics. The Chairman. What is Mr. Friedman's religion? Miss He joined the church last fall. He is an Epis- copalian. Senator Lane. How many hours off do you have in the afternoon these every other Saturdays ? Miss . We go to town right after dinner as soon as we can, and are supposed to be back at 5 o'clock. That is another case I would like to speak about. Senator Lane. What happens if you don't come home on time? Miss . We get bad marks. Senator Lane. How late can you return without getting into serious trouble ? Miss . Half past 5. When Miss Gaither was here— on our town days we go as soon as we can get ready and be back by 5.30. Before we were denied the privilege of getting down town on account of quarantine; the last time I was down town, there was quite- a number of girls who were late. We did not get back until after 5 o'clock, but before 5.30, and Miss Ridenour taken our names. She did not tell us we had to be back by 5 o'clock. We always had the understanding we had to get back before 5.30; we did not under- stand we had to be back by 5 o'clock. And because we came in after 5 o'clock and before 5.30 our names were taken, and we were denied the right of one of our privileges; that is, she gave us our choice: We could either stay home from the next social, or stay home from our next town day. Senator Lane. Which did you take? Miss • — . I took to stay home from town the next town day. Mr. Whitwell made out the calendar for this year, and he put m the calendar that these meetings should be held during the week between the hours of 7 and 8. I understand that those hours were changed from 6 to 7 o'clock by Mr. Friedman, and that was denying all the students who were at work between 6 and 7 the right of attending those meetings. While Miss Gaither was here the Protestant students had their meetings on Thursday evening and the Catholic students on Wednes- day. And she gave the girls substitutes that had to go to the religious meetings on the different nights. For instance, if the Catholic girls were working in the dining room the nights they were to go she would substitute Protestant girls on that evening, and the same way in the Protestant girls' case. But this year all those meetings after supper — say on Monday night, all the students who are at work can not go. They have to be deprived of that during that month. Representative Carter. Miss , what time do you have Catholic church'? Miss . Early mass ? Representative Carter. I mean all along, different times during the day. 1038 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mins - — . For early mass we have to leave here at 7 o'clock, and we have mass down there at 8 o'clock. Representative Carter. That is the first mass ? Miss . The first mass for the students. Representative Carter. When is the next? Miss . Half past nine. Representative Carter. Then the next ? Miss . Well, we want to go to two masses. Representative Carter. You have your regular service at 11 ? Miss . No; they have set a time for the students to attend, the 9.30 mass. Representative Carter. They do not object to your going to the 9.30 mass, do they? Miss . No; that is the mass set for us. Representative Carter. You have to go to that one, and they won't let you go to the 8 o'clock mass? Miss . The priests and sisters would not object for us to attend the 10 o'clock mass, but it is the regulations of the school to attend the 9.30. Representative Carter. But you want to attend the early mass ? Miss We want the right of going to confession and com- munion on our different days whenever we are supposed to go, the girls one Sunday and the boys the next. Senator Lane. You can go, though, to the 9.30 mass without a chaperone ? Miss . No; there is one Catholic woman on the grounds, and she chaperones the girls to the 9.30 mass. She is the only Catholic woman on the grounds, and it is too much for her to chape- rone the girls at 8 o'clock, and we have to fast from midnight Senator Lane. That is the reason, is it ? You want to get back and get something to eat ? Miss . It is too much on the students to fast from midnight until dinner time. Senator Lane. That is why you object to it? On account of being deprived of your early meal ? Miss . Our complaint is it has caused them to stop us from going to early mass, because we had no chaperone, and yet since the time of Col. Pratt until last fall we have always went in charge of our officers and the girls have always conducted themselves as ladies. Senator Lane. What else have you to say about the general welfare of this institution ? Miss . You have heard the case brought up. She was a girl that was not of a very good character. She had a very good voice, and she was taken out several times with the band, and on one occasion she sang for the governor in Harrisburg and was put as a model for the school. And she was also the star here at commencement time, 1912, I think it was, when she sang. When they put up girls of that character that is only leading weaker girls to evil doings, because they think if a girl of that standing can rise up and be put as a model before the school they also can do those things. Senator Lane. You think it puts a premium on misconduct? Miss Yes, sir. If we have somebody to represent the school we want their character also to be recognized, because it is CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1039 reflecting on our characters us w e!l; not only on we students that are now here, hut those that come after is, and the whole Indian race. The public gets the impression that if that can happen to the girls here, all the school must le of a lower standing. About — 's case. You have something said about that. She is now on the outing system, and she was not expelled when she had good reasons to be expelled, while other girls were expelled for almost nothing. ■ — 's case — that started when they had the pageant in Philadelphia. There was a number of students went there to represent the school and the Indians. I understand they did not have a very good location, their boarding place where they stopped was not looked after in a proper way, the girls and boys were thrown in together, and that is where she got her start. After she came back to the school she kept it up. Then there was a request from Philadelphia from some church to send a delega- tion over there to represent the school. Representative Carter. When was it these girls and boys were sent to Philadelphia ? Miss . The time of the pageant. Representative Carter. Do you remember what year ? Miss . It was 1911, I guess. Representative Carter. Who were they % Miss . Mrs. Meyers is one of them. Representative Carter. One of the chaperones % Miss . Yes, sir. Representative Carter. What does she do. Is she one of the employees % Miss . She was. Miss . She was assistant matron at that time. Representative Carter. And she was with the girls at that time ? Miss . Yes, sir. And this is what we think about that. If Mr. Friedman made arrangements for them to go down to Phila- delphia he should look after their welfare while they were there. Representative Carter. Undoubtedly he should. Where did they stay % At a hotel ? Miss ■ . I don't know where they stopped. Representative Carter. Was there a chaperone with them ? Miss ■ . I don't know whether she was with them all the time; I guess she was. I did not go myself. Representative Carter. Is there anybody here that was on that trip « There is a young lady here that knows about it. Miss — — . I started to tell you about the time when they asked for a delegation or a music committee to go down to some church fair. I was selected as one of them. I do not remember whether it was a trio or quartet of girls. I was supposed to go down and play on the harp, and Fred Carden on the violin, and other girls were to sing. Mr Friedman issued an order that Fred and I were not to go because we were Catholics, so I did not get to go that time Representative Carter. Was that a written order that he issued? Miss. ■ — . He sent it to Mr. Stauffer. Mr. Stauffer was the one ^Representative Carter. He told you you were denied because you were Catholics % 1040 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Miss . Yes; because this place they were going was for a Protestant church. And the day before she was to go, Miss Gaither learned of 's trouble, and reported it to Mr. Friedman, and he became furious, and asked her why didn't she wait until after she came back. It just looks to me like they don't care what kind of girls they take to represent the school, just so they have a girl that is accomplished in some way. We want girls whose characters shine as Avell as their accomplishments do, because it throws a reflection upon us just as well. The Chairman. What about the college spirit here at Carlisle? Miss --. The students do not seem to have much respect for cither Mr. Friedman or Miss Ridenoi.r. Senator Lane. Are they proud of the institution? Miss — -. I do not know. I can not speak for the rest < f them, but for myself I would be ashamed to t»ke my diploma away from here. I am n senior, and I don't know whether I will pass or not, but the way things are going now I would be ashamed to get a diploma, because the public are getting the impression we are not a good kind of people. Senator Lane. I do not think so. I think Carlisle has a good repu- tation. So far as I know, I think the school is spoken highly of throughout the country. Miss . That is my impression (if it, but from things I have seen going on here I can not help that impression. Miss . We think the school is misrepresented. Mr. Fried- man writes stories that brags up the school, and we do not think it ought to be done that way. We think lie misrepresents the school. He has used these girls with low characters just to make a name for himself. He has all these girls up in public, and it seems like he selects the very lowest girls to represent the school. Miss . Iu connection with the religious subject. I think it is a regulation of the Indian schools that any Protestant should not proselyte any students to their religion or say anything about it to them. They have the right to believe any church they wish; and Mr. Staurfer has argued religion with me several times. The Chairman. Has he much influence with you ? Miss . No ; he could not have influence with me. That is not the point. It is because he has argued religion with me, and if I was weak enough to think his way he might have been able to influence me on his side, but if he can get hold of some student that is weaker than I am he is going to use his influence. He is going against the regulations of the Indian schools by proselyting, and it is not his business to talk about our religion. The Chairman. Have you been going out on the outing system since you have been here ? Miss -. Yes, sir. I was out last summer. My first summer. The Chairman. Where did you go ? Miss . The first three months I was out I went to Brookline, a suburb of Philadelphia. The last three months I went to Morris- town, N. J. The Chairman. What did you do at Brookline? Miss . Housework. The Chairman. What did you do in New Jersey ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1041 Miss — . Housework; but it was much easier. When I went to the country I told Miss Johnson I wanted a home where I would not have to work very hard, because I had had a great deal of trouble with my back and I could not stand the work. When I got out there she told me just what I had to do, and the woman of the house did not know how to cook very much, and I don't know anything about cooking, and I was depended upon to do the housework and do the cooking. I did not know how to cook, and she could not teach me Senator Lane. Was there a husband in the family » Miss . Yes, sir. Senator Lane. He had some pretty poor grub, then, didn't he « Miss — . I don't know about that. Their food seemed to be all right, as far as that goes. Representative Carter. How did you like the places ? Miss ■ The first home I did not hke; the last home I did. Representative Carter. You had too much work at the first ? Mlss ■ I had more work than I could stand. I was not able to take up all that work. The first Monday I was there she told me I would have to help her with the washing. I told her I told Miss Johnson I could not do the washing, and Miss Johnson told me, too, I would not have to do the washing, and if I had any washing it would be very little. But when I got there the first Monday Mrs. Roach told me when I got there I would have to go down and help with the wash. I told her what I told Miss Johnson. I thought 1 would try it, anyhow, and I turned the wringer around once, and I knew I could not stand it, and 1 told her about this. She said I would not have to help with the washing, but I would have to help with the ironing. The last week 1 was there I worked very hard. The oldest child was about 14 and the youngest was about 2\ years old. TESTIMONY OF MISS . The witness was reminded that she had been sworn. Representative Stephens. Where are you from? Miss . Oklahoma. Representative Stephens. What tribe ? Miss . Osage. Representative Stephens. What do you wish to speak about? Miss . The rudeness and harshness of Miss Ridenour's man- ner, and the way she speaks to the girls, and the way she treats them. The majority of the girls at this school can not go to Miss Ridenour the way they would go to their mothers, because she speaks rudely to them. She does not give them time to explain or tell their side of the story until she snaps them off and probably gives them what they call a demerit mark for what she calls "impudence." There is a little girl here, , and I guess the way she combed her hair did not please Miss Ridenour. Miss Ridenour told her to change it, and she took her hair down and combed it and tied it. She went upstairs into her room and took her hair down and combed it the way she wanted it, and she came downstairs and Miss Ridenour slapped her right and left and told her she would have to do what she wanted. She rules most of the girls in that way. When she was out 35601— pt 11—14 6 1042 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. in Phoenix, I guess she was used to ruling the full-blooded Indians, and when she came here she did not realize that the most of the girls were not full-blooded Indians. Of course, she should not treat the full- blooded Indians any different from the others. Another case is 's case. She went to the reception, and one of her friends asked her if she would not sleep with her. Miss Ridenour inspected during the night, and she struck with a strap and woke her up. She could have awakened up in a nice way instead of pounding her. The Chairman. Was she in a different room from the one she was supposed to stay in? Miss . She was in my room; she is my roommate, but she was in the wrong bed. The Chairman. The regulation is that only one shall sleep in a bed? Miss Yes, sir. Miss . The girls that were expelled from here last spring, had just come in from the country. She had a sore foot. They had a circus down town, and the student body was allowed to attend the circus. It was a very windy day, and the tents were flying, and the man in charge of the circus tent told Miss Eide- nour that she should not let the girls take seats until she saw every- thing was all right. Miss Ridenour told the girls they should not take seats, and then again she told the girls they should. started to get a seat, and she walked up to and shook her, and got after her for trying to take the seat. And her sister walked up and said, "Miss Ridenour, has a sore foot, and if you want to shake anybody around here I would rather you would shake me." And Miss Ridenour, in public, when the people were all around there, she threatened to break an umbrella over their heads if they did not keep quiet, and she brought them back to school, and put them in the lockup, and finally expelled them. Representative Stephens. Expelled them from the school en- tirely ? Miss . Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How long ago was this ? Miss . Last spring, in the month of May. Representative Stephens. Were all these girls expelled ? Miss . No, sir; just the last case. Representative Stephens. What else have you ? Miss . While Miss Gaither was here she had an office girl — the office girl did not always do it, but the assistant matron and the office girl and Miss Gaither used to take turns inspecting the girls' rooms during the day, and each girl that did not have her room clean used to get a demerit mark, and in that way — they would also put up a notice on a bulletin board that a certain girl's room was not clean. As it is, we never have inspections, only the Sunday inspections, and it is natural that some of the girls would fall short on keeping their rooms clean if they do not have to. As a general rule, the most of them keep their rooms clean, but there are those who do not, whereas if we had general inspections every day perhaps they would keep their quarters in better condition. When the girls are sick she does not speak to them like she ought to. My own case — I was sick one time. I did not feel like working or CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1043 going to school. I walked down to the office and told Miss Eidenour ma nice way that I was sick, and asked her if I could not be excused, hhe spoke up and told me m a very harsh way that she did not allow sick girls to hang around the girls' quarters, and she would send me to the hospital. I told her, "Very well." They have the idea around here that the girls play off when they get excused from work, so they sent me over to the hospital. I went over there and they put me to bed, and they did not give me anything all day but a bowl of soup. They usually keep the girls over there all day. When I came back to quarters that evening I had to ask for medicine. They did not give me anything at all but the bowl of soup for dinner. Representative^ Stephens. Were you examined by a doctor? Miss No, sir. The next morning I was sick and I went down to the dispensary and I asked the doctor what the hospital was for; that I was over there all the day before. He said he did not know I was over there, and that if he had known he would cer- tainly have done something for me. I supposed Miss Eidenour would have told him. Representative Stephens. Have you any complaint against the doctor? Miss . No, sir; we have a very nice doctor. Representative Stephens. These circumstances you have related, did you make them known to Mr. Friedman ? Miss . No, sir. I did not think it would do any good to present such facts. It seems as though he is right in with Miss Ridenour, and it would not do any good. Take, for instance, any time the girls want to get permission to do anything. He will send them right back to Miss Ridenour, as if she was the head of the school. Take New Year's Day. The girls wanted to go skating. Miss Ridenour said she had not any orders, that she would notify them when she had. She was not taking any steps toward getting orders. The girls wanted to go skating, because they had not had any priv- ileges. The boys were enjoying the skating, while the girls stayed home. They felt that this one day would not be much of a sacrifice for the boys. The girls came the second time to ask if they could go skating, and Miss Ridenour said she had not had any orders yet. They went to Mr. Friedman, and while they were there the phone rang, and it was Miss Ridenour, and the girls came down and she reprimanded the girls in a very harsh manner for taking the steps they had taken, and she told the girls she had asked before when they knew very well she had just phoned over. Representative Stephens. Do the girls geneially have respect for either Mr. Friedman or Miss Ridenour ? Miss — — — •. No, sir; they do not. Representative Stephens. For what reason ? Miss — • — - — . Miss Ridenour never treats the girls right. She nevet trusts the girls. She should take into consideration that the girls here are young ladies; they know how to conduct themselves. She can see that there are some that do not care to conduct themselves in a right way, but the majority do. She does not even trust them with the other employees here. If you ask to go to an employee's room she will ask you whom you are going to see Representative Stephens. Why do you distrust Mr. Friedman then? 1044 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Miss — ■ — • — -. Well — -nobody has any respect for him. Representative Stephens. What is the cause of it '. Miss — — — -. For instance, last spring they were having a little trouble here about cutting out the different gatherings they had, and Mr. Friedman called the girls down to the gymnasium and got them all down here, and they began to holler and hiss, and he could not get them quiet, and he lined them up in companies, and as soon as one company would stop, another would start, and he would call them down. He got them quieted down, and he gave them a talking to, and he came out in plain words that the faculty were not their friends because they wanted to be, they were paid to be, and also on that evening he called us "savages." Representative Stephens. Were there any other persons present besides the girls ? Miss — • — ■ — -. The student body and Miss Ridenour. When Miss Ridenour first came, the first evening she was at Carlisle she did not speak to the girls nicely at all. She came in the assembly and spoke to them in a very harsh manner. She left an impression, but, how- ever, it was not the right kind. No girl can go to her. For my part, I think a lady who is placed over several hundred girls should be a lady of more delicate qualities. I guess she feels as long . as Mr. Friedman is back of her, that she is just as good as the superintendent himself. Representative Carter. You mean she speaks to the employees in a dictatorial kind of way, or that she does not use proper language that should pass between ladies and gentlemen % Miss — • — • — . She does not speak to them as a lady should. Miss ■ — ■ is here, and she was present at the time Miss Ridenour spoke about Miss Canfield in a very unladylike way. Miss Canfield is an employee • The Chairman. What do you mean by "unladylike" way? Miss — ■ — ■ — •. You go to her and ask her a question; you would think you were going to get your head bit off. Representative Carter. She speaks roughly and abruptly ? Miss — • — • — -. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Were you on that trip % Miss . No; I was going to say that there were some girls who were present. C M was one of the girls to go to the pageant. The Chairman. Any others that you know of ? Miss . No, sir; I think that she is the only one. TESTIMONY OF MISS . The witness was reminded that she had been sworn. Senator Lane. Where are you from % Miss . Minnesota. Representative Carter. You are a Chippewa % Miss . Yes, sir; I have the same subject as Miss , about how Miss Ridenour treats the girls. Senator Lane. Tell us what you know. Miss . She does not seem to treat the girls right when they first come. Some new girls just arrived here some few weeks ago. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1045 I guess she thought they did not know very much, and she did not make them feel at home. They had a chaperone that came with them, and she just came from town, I think, and they were going down there to meet her, and I guess she thought they were running away, and she jerked them by the arm, with the boys out on the campus and everything, and she slapped one of the girls Senator Lane. How old was the girl ? Miss . I do not know how old the girls are. They must have been 18 or 19 years old. Senator Lane. In public was it ? Miss . Yes, sir; down on the main walk. Senator Lane. They were just coming here ? ^ ss • They were here already. They had been here about a day or two. Senator Lane. Is she a heavy, muscular woman? Miss -. Miss Ridenour? Yes, sir; she is. Whenever they would see this chaperone thy would go to meet her. They were crying all the time, and instead of trying to make them at home or getting the girls together, like Miss Gaither would — when new girls came she would tell the girls to go in and entertain them, and she has never done that with any new girls. She starts to scold them right away, the first day they get here. That does not make them feel very good. She could have talked to them in a different way than that. Of course, Miss has told you about her slapping those girls in bed. None of us girls ever feel like going to Miss Eidenour with any of our troubles The Chairman. That complaint seems to be quite general among you, and it does seem that Miss Ridenour must be tactless, to say the least, in not having the confidence of some of the young ladies. Did you ever try to win her confidence and affection? What has been the attitude of the young ladies in the school in that regard ? Did it ever occur to you that she might have a pretty hard road herself ? Miss . When Miss Ridenour first came she did not speak to us girls as if she was glad to come here or anything, but she snapped right at us, and, of course, that gave us the impression that she was not the kind of a woman to rule over girls. We know that Miss Ridenour has a record of good discipline, but she did not exercise her discipline in the right way when she first came. From that time she has just nagged at the girls. The Chairman. You say that when new pupils come here she does not make an effort to make them comfortable ? Miss . Not that I know of. The Chairman. But censures them, and does not treat them kindly ? Miss . Yes, sir. I know most of the girls feel that way toward her. When they get into trouble at all they fear her. They would not tell her like they would in former years, like they did with Miss Gaither. She would take us to her room and explain right and wrong, but we do not feel that way about Miss Ridenour. ' I know there was a time when we went to get that permission to go skating. I was the one that went and asked. It seemed that the boys had the privilege to go down and skate for a whole week, and 1046 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. * the girls had not had permission, and I thought the boys ought to sacrifice one day for the girls, as the girls had been kept in the house so much. So I went down and asked her, and she snapped me off, saying, "I have not had any orders for you to go skating." Of •course, when we want anything like that we might as well stay out of the office all together. The Chairman. How about the feeling toward Mr. Friedman? Could you go to him with your troubles ? Miss . I have not thought much about it. He would send me back to Miss Kidenour; I thmk so. The Chairman. What is the feeling generally among the young ladies toward Mr. Friedman ? Miss . Well, I guess The Chairman. Do they like him? Miss . I do not think any of them that I have heard. Nearly every girl I know seems to dislike him. They do not seem to show any respect toward him. Something about music: Some of the girls came here — I know I «ame here with the impression we could take music — piano lessons or something. I was anxious to take lessons and I went to Mr. Stauf- fer. The first year I came here I went to him and asked him if I could take music lessons and he said he would take my name. He took my name, and he never let me in. So then I let it go and my mother kept wilting to me telling me I ought to take music lessons. I asked him again this year to take my name and he said he would take it, and he did. I have known lots of girls, and he has taken other girls in — new girls — and he has left me out. This is my third year here, and he has never given me a chance. Senator Lane. Why ? Miss . I don't know why. representative Carter. Does he have the naming of the music pupils ? Miss . Why, I don't know. I have heard it said that he does not want to take anybody in unless they are advanced in music. Representative Carter. Who selects the pupils that take music ? Miss . Nobody that I know of. The Chairman. Are they permitted to take it when they want to ? Miss . I know the catalogues say we can take music if we come here. Senator Lane. You appeal to him because he is the music teacher ? Miss . Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you ever bring the matter to the attention of the superintendent ? Miss No, sir; I have not. The Chairman. Why don't you do that? Miss . I just neglected. He has sent girls to Mr. Stauffer. I have known girls that went to him and he said, "See Mr. Stauffer." The Chairman. What interest does he take in the school— Mr. Friedman ? What does he do about you ? Miss . I do not know. I could not answer that, I guess. The Chairman. What class are you in ? Miss . I am taking business. The Chairman. Are you a graduate of the school ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1047 Miss . No, I am not, I finished at home in the eighth grade. The Chairman. How often do you see him about your class rooms ? MitiS ; • Sometimes once in three months he comes' around. He comes into the rooms. The Chairman. What does he do when he comes to the rooms ? I mean to the study rooms. What does he do when he comes there ? Miss . He comes in there and asks how you are getting along and how long you have been there. The Chairman. How many girls are there in the business depart- ment ? . Miss . There must be eight or nine. The Chairman. Wio is at the head? Miss . Miss Moore. She stays downtown. The Chairman. You think he comes around about once in three months and asks how you are getting on ? Miss . I could not say it is once in three months, but he has not been in there very often. The Chairman. How long have you been in there ? Miss ■ Three years now. The Chairman. How long does he stay when he comes around, as a rule ? Miss . About five minutes, as a rule. He comes in and takes off his hat, and Miss Moore shows him papers and he walks off. Representative Carter. What are you taking ? Stenography ? Miss • Yes, sir. Representative Carter. How long have you been taking it? Miss ■ Three years. Miss Moore was just a student herself. She started in there, and she had a large class and she had to teacli each one individually. It was kind of discouraging at first. Of course I have been in the hospital quite a while since I came, and I went home last year before commencement, and I missed about three months. Representative Carter. You have been in the hospital ? Your health is bad ? Miss • It has been. I caught cold and I was over there three weeks at a time. The Chairman. I believe we have one more witness yet. TESTIMONY OF MISS . The witness was reminded that she had been sworn. Senator Lane. Where are you from ? Miss . Michigan. Representative Carter. What tribe ? Miss . Chippewa. My subject is the feeling of the girls in general. The feeling of the girls in general toward Miss Ridenour is anything but kindness. It seems we can not go to her as we would like to go to a mother and speak to her about our troubles because of her rude manner of speech and thoughtlessness of others' feelings. On many occasions when we want something we go in the office and ask her for it in a kindly way, and she never gives us a nice answer, as she should. One time I went in there asking for some ink, and I 1048 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. did not get it. She gave some of her answers, and I came out with- out getting the ink. Representative Carter. Miss , is this feeling universal among the students, or are there some of the students that this matron likes and some that like her ? Miss . No, sir; I don't think you will find many. Very few. Representative Carter. Are there any at all ? Miss . I don't think so. Representative Carter. Not a single one? Miss . I don't think so. Representative Carter. They are all opposed to her? Miss . All opposed to her. Representative Carter. Even these girls that the other young ladies have told about, who have committed infractions of the rules for which they should be expelled, they do not like her ? Miss . None of them. Representative Carter. What is the feeling toward Mr. Friedman? Miss . It seems they have no respect for Mr. Friedman — the manner in which he talks to us like savages and all that. Representative Carter. He does not have any respect for an Indian, }'ou think ? Miss . I mean the students. Representative Carter. I say, you think Mr. Friedman does not have any respect toward an Indian ? Miss . From my standpoint, I don't think so. Representative Carter. Do you think when he is calling them savages he is really in earnest about it, or is just joking ? Miss . It does not seem that way. Representative Carter. These fellows here sometimes call me a savage down at Washington, but I never got very mad at them about it. Miss . Another thing about Miss Ridenour: We have not any recreation hours here, whereas when Miss Gaither was here — the former matron — we had two nights out of each week to go to the gymnasium to play in there, and ever since Miss Ridenour has been here we have never had a night. The only exercise we have is going to school and to work. When we ask her to go to the gymnasium for exercise she says, ' 'Go to work; that is enough exercise." That is the answer we get. Representative Carter. Have you anything else, Miss ? Miss . I think not. The Chairman. What about the food ? Miss . There has been a great change since Mr. Linnen has been here. The Chairman. He has helped that much, has he ? Miss . We have had enough bread, I know, since he has been here. The Chairman. I think that is all. I thank you very much. Thereupon, at 11 o'clock p. m. the commission stood adjourned to meet to morrow, Saturday, February 7, 1914. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1049 february 7, 1914. Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, t J^ ^ oomm^on met in the Y. M. G. A. hall at the Carlisle Indian School, Carlisle, Pa., at 8.30 o'clock a. m. Present: Senators Robinson (chairman) and Lane; Representa- tives Stephens and Carter. TESTIMONY OF MR. WALLACE DENNY. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You are assistant disciplinarian at the Carlisle Institute ? Mr. Denny. Yes. The Chairman. How long have you been so engaged « Mr. Denny. Since 1907. The Chairman. Were you at the school or in any wise connected with it prior to that time ? Mr. Denny. I was a student. The Chairman. How long were you a student in Carlisle? Mr. Denny. Ten years. The Chairman. Where were you from when you came here ? Mr. Denny. Oneida, Wis. The Chairman. Are you a full-blood ? Mr. Denny. Well, I do not think so; I think about seven-eighths, or something like that. Representative Stephens. Of what tribe are you ? Mr. Denny. Oneida, of Wisconsin. The Chairman. Have you, during the time you have been em- ployed here served in the same capacity you are now serving ? ♦ Mr. Denny. Yes, sir. Assistant disciplinarian. _ The Chairman. You have been, I presume, familiar with condi- tions in the school during your whole time as assistant disciplinarian ? Mr. Denny. Yes. The Chairman. What are the general conditions now prevailing at Carlisle with reference to discipline and good order among the pupils? Mr. Denny. The discipline in our school here has been very poor; very poor. The Chairman. Is it improving, hi your judgment ? Mr. Denny. Growing worse. The Chairman. How long has it been growing worse ? How long has that condition existed ? Mr. Denny. I should say from one to three years. The Chairman. Who is the chief disciplinarian ? Mr. Denny. Mr. McKean. The Chairman. To what do you attribute the bad order and its increase in the school? What is the cause of this lack of discipline that is growing worse ? Mr. Denny. Going a little way back The Chairman. You may state anything you desire. Mr. Denny. We had a superintendent here — Maj. Mercer, and during his time the pupils were allowed to dance as many as two to 1050 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. throe times a week, and just a general good time, and that lasted four years. When Mr. Friedman came here he reduced those social privileges at the school, and it seems that the pupils have turned against him ever since. It seems to me the pupils were here just to have a good time. We have students here — more students 15 to 20 years of age, and of course they just looked at the fun and good time. Mr. Friedman, the superintendent, got to the point where he gave one reception during the month, and one sociable. Well, then they just thought he was against them all the time, and he put harder work in their school. He substituted from a quiet hour to a study hour— regular school work in the evening and less sociable. And their meals — the} 7 do not get a very good meal here. I must admit that, because I was detailed in the dining room. Every third day I go in there. The Chairman. As I understand you, the following are among the causes: First, the curtailment of social privileges; second, an increase of the students' work Mr. Denny. Well, harder work. The Chairman. Harder work; third, the poor meals that are served them; and, fourth Mr. Denny. I want to mention the fourth. I do not know whether this will come under that, but the fourth is that the employees do not work in harmony with the superintendent. I am safe to say that about three-fourths of them are against the superintendent; in fact, perhaps more. And those employees — I have heard it myself — ■ have discussed freely the superintendent's work before the students, and of course, that arouses them. The Chairman. Now, there is a feeling of general hostility on the part of the students and on the part of the greater part of the em- ployees toward the superintendent ? Mr. Denny. Yes. The Chairman. You have oxplainod some of the reasons that have caused this feeling on the part of the pupils toward the superintend- ent. Now, what is it that has so arrayed the employoes against him ? Why is it they do not cooperate with him % Mr. Denny. The superintendent, his intentions are all right, as far as I know. He has got his heart in the work, and he is a hard worker; but it seems to me he is unfortunate; he is not a man that appeals 1o people. The Chairman. He can not secure the confidence of the pupils and the employees ? Mr. Denny. Yes; that is it; I can not express it. The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for these condi- tions ? You may express yourself freely. What can be done % Is it necessary that something be done about the school; and if so, what do you think ought to be done ? Mr. Denny. Yes. The only thing that has got to be done— that is, you have got to change the head. The Chairman. Got to get a new superintendent? Mr. Denny. Yes; a new superintendent, or something has got to be done, to tell you the truth. The Chairman. What do you think of the school in its general conditions and work* Do the pupils take hold of their studies with interest? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1051 Mr. Denny. Yes; those I have, they take hold of their work; but of course — I can not tell you, but there certainly is funny atmosphere around here. The Chairman. Now, would you characterize that atmosphere? Is it one of mutiny or mere dissatisfaction and discontent ? Mr. Denny. Dissatisfaction. The Chairman. The dissatisfaction is general, is it ? Mr. Denny. Yes. The Chairman. Now, you have referred to the meals not being satisfactory when you were detailed to the dining room. I wish you would be a little more explicit about that and tell wherein they were not satisfactory. What did they serve, and how was it served ? Mr. Denny. As far as I could see — -I walked around the dining room, all over the dining room, and we are short of grub, we are short of bread; everybody would be asking for bread, and before the matron comes they tell the students there is no more bread in the dining room, and we know that there is plenty of it in the bakery shop. There is plenty of it in the cupboard, but they are allowed just so much. Then we go to work and tap the bell to get them quiet, and at the tap of the bell begin to send them out. They are dissatisfied and kind of unruly. I don't say they are bad, but they are hungry, and it is a mighty hard thing to please them. The Chairman. Now, you are a man of experience and had long been a student at the school before you were an employee here. You say you believe a sufficient quantity of bread has not been served to the pupils, and they were forced to go hungry on that account ? Mr. Denny. Yes. The Chairman. Why is that true? Bread is cheap. Do you understand why the policy of the administration of the school per- mits a condition like that ? Mr. Denny. I did try to trace it back, and pretty near got into trouble about it. I went right straight to the superintendent and I reported, so he called a meeting, I think, twice — yes; twice— and they tried to look into it. It included the quartermaster, the cook, the matron, the dining-room matron, and the girls ' matron, and the large boys' disciplinarian, and Mr. Stauffer, the music teacher, and the baker, and they tried to remedy that. It went all right a day or so, and then went right back. The quartermaster says to the superin- tendent he is allowed to feed them just so much, and he is going to stay at that limit. The Chairman. Who fixes the limit? Mr. Denny. He told me that there is a rule set for them, and he can not go beyond that. The reason why I took this up to the superintendent, because I know something is going to bust in the dining room— something is going to give somewhere. The Chairman. There is great dissatisfaction there, and you think there is liable to be serious trouble about it? Mr. Denny. Yes; I realize— for instance, there is 10 large boys weighing from 150 up to nearly 200 pounds, 10 at a table, and they are growing from 18 to 21, and they need to eat a lot more than I do, because I have stopped growing and those fellows are just growing. They have lots of life and lots of exercise outside m the air. 1052 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Their period of life calls for an abundance of food, of course? Mr. Denny. Yes. The Chairman. And they do not get it ? Mr. Denny. They do not get it. The Chairman. Have you noticed the service there with reference to knives and forks and cups ? Has there been trouble about that ? Mr. Denny. Yes. The Chairman. Tell us what it is. Mi - . Denny. I complained to the dining-room matron about it, and she says she could not get it. The Chairman. You mean there was not a sufficient supply of them ? Mr. Denny. They have them here at the storehouse," as far as I understand. The Chairman. I mean in the dining room. Mr. Denny. In the dining room they do not have enough, and, of course, the boys — the boys, they are not going to eat the proper way. They are going to make the best of it. Excuse me, I started to make a statement a while ago that the boys realize — they say in a report that Congress appropriated 1170,000 or $172,000 for the school, and we have plenty of hogs here at the school, and they are sold. They realize that. The Chairman. Are the products of the farm here used on the table, or are they sold ? Mr. Denny. We use all of the vegetables right here. They can them in the fall, and then they used them to the students. The Chairman. What about the meats ? Mr. Denny. The hogs are sold, and, of course, they do not butcher here any cattle. The cattle we have here they use for butter and milk. The Chairman. How often do they serve butter here ? Mr. Denny. I can not say. I suppose about twice a week or three times a week. In summer time they serve more, because then they do not have so many students. The Chairman. How often do they serve milk 1 Mr. Denny. I do not think they give them milk. The Chairman. Do they get any eggs ? Mr. Denny. No; we do not have any chickens. There are a few. The Chairman. They do not serve any eggs on the table ? Mr. Denny. No. The Chairman. What are the moral conditions in the school ? Is there much drinking among the boys ? Mr. Denny. There has been. The Chairman. Is it increasing or growing less ? Mr. Denny. It has been better this year than it used to be, but the moral condition of the school here — it is better — well, it is a little better than I have known that it was, than what it ought to be. The Chairman. What is the drinking attributable to? Is there much drunkenness ? Mr. Denny. No. Those pupils that are drunkards before they came here are the ones that are carrying on that. The Chairman. What do you do with a boy when he gets drunk? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1053 Mr Dexxy. Put him in the guardhouse. We have a guardhouse tor that purpose. The Chairman. How long do you keep them there, as a rule '' Mr. Denny. I tell you my position here. I am in charge of the small boys, and of course they do not get drunk. The Chairman. You do not get any of those ? T ^. r - D ? NNY - Tliat J ust runs to the 'large boys. As far as I know I think, from one week to 10 days, or something like that, The Chairman. What are the regulations of the school with refer- ence to the punishment of the boys under your jurisdiction ? What right have you to punish them and what kind of punishment are you authorized to inflict ? Mr. Denny. Well, I have locked them up at times when it is nec- essary for a few days. I had one drunk this fall, and I locked him up, I think, about a week or so. The Chairman. Do you whip them? Mr. Denny. Mr. Friedman gave me orders, and I don't whip them any more. They are sometimes a little tart, you know, and I put them across my knee and spank them. The Chairman. What is the name of the boy that was said to have been struck by your fist and hit by a ring above the eye here I Inspector Linnen. The boy who testified, his name was Braun. Mr. Denny. That was Ira Cloud. The boy came back here— he served here five years. He paid his own way, and when he got back here he went to the hospital. Right away he had chicken pox, and he was unruly in the hospital, and they could not control him. Of course, as soon as they released 'him I got him back, and before I had a chance to put him in the shops at his trade I kept him around the quarters, and I could not make him work. I can not put him to work. Well, while he works, he will shirk, and during the summer he told me himself he was drinking heavily — he was doing as he pleased. He has not got a father — well, he has a father, but not a legal one. When I did go for him I asked him what was the reason he was doing this, and he told me that he paid his way back to Carlisle and could do exactly as he pleased — a boy about 17 years old. I told him to do the work, and he deliberately refused. I tried to put him to work in the afternoon, and he went to the store. I sent for the boys and we got him back, and he was very impudent to me. He showed fight right away, and we had a regular boxing match. The Chairman. Did he strike you ? Mr. Denny. Yes; right straight in my face. I was not ready; he could not have hit me if I was ready. He certainly did soak me. The Chairman. You struck him when he struck you ? Mr. Denny. I struck him, and I locked him up for a day. The Chairman. Did you knock him down ? Mr. Denny. No; he went backward. The Chairman. Did you have on a ring that cut his eye >. Mr. Denny. No; only this one here [exhibiting a plain band ring]. The Chairman. He struck you first ? Mr. Denny. Yes ; he struck me first. The Chairman. There weresome other boys that you were said to have struck and knocked down a stairway. You remember that? 1054 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Denny. Yes; I threw him down stairs. We had a kind of little insurrection here. One night the lights went out, and I got my officer around the quarters there to control the door, and the boys liked to jump out of the quarters, carrying on high. It was on a masquerade night. I was standing in the hallway. There was no lights, and they threw a stone — they knew where I was standing. They threw a stone and just happened to miss me, and they threw coal, in there near my office. It was pitch dark. I came out on the porch. One of the boys back in the quarters he came up on the porch, and he hit me with all his might, and he jumped back in the quarters. I saw the boy. I recognized him at once, and I went up, and he lied to me, and I told him to come down in the office. Kef er- ring to this boy — James Kalawat — he came from jail to Carlisle, right from jail, and I always had trouble with him ever since he has been here. The Chairman. When you went back there Mr. Denny. I brought him down and we had a tussle. I told him to come down in the office. I wanted to see the boy — what was the object of his hitting me like that. I brought him down; I got him down the steps, down the stairway, and got him down in my office by force. We had to tussle. He was a pretty good-sized boy. This was last fall. The Chairman. You were trying then to suppress disorder ? Mr. Denny. Yes, sir; to suppress insurrection at the school. The large boys went to work and they tore the bleachers down. They cut Mr. McKean's head that very same night. Somebody hit him with a stone. The Chairman. What did that boy hit you with? Mr. Denny. He grabbed hold of the stuff that was lying up there in that trash box. I saw him running there, and the boys told me about it, but I did not lock them up because they threw everything down. I was trying to catch the boy. The Chairman. Are you charged with any responsibility for the conduct of the larger boys ? Mr. Denny. No; I am not. I went by here last week and a fellow on the third floor hit me with a chair — just missed my head. That is the condition we have here. I have never done anything to the larger boys. That is the attitude we have here toward those who are trying to control the boys. For my part, I am trying to control those boys. I myself admit I have some pretty bad boys. The Chairman. Have you thought of a plan to stop so much drinking in the school among the pupils ? Mr. Denny. The only way you could stop that is to have a stand- ard. Before the pupil would enter the school you would have some standard The Chairman. And not admit drunkards and drinkers to the school ? Mr. Denny. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You think they do not contract the habit of drink- ing here, but contract it before they come here ? Mr. Denny. Before they come here. That has been proven in every case. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1055 The Chairman. If it is true that the drinking habit is not con- tracted here but is contracted before the student comes, your sugges- tion would seem to me to be a very intelligent one, because it would prevent a demoralization that naturally results to refuse to admit pupils who have a record for drinking. Do you know whether any effort is made to ascertain the habits of boys before they are admitted to the school ? Mr. Denny. Not to my knowledge. The Chairman. Anybody is admitted without regard to his record? Mr. Denny. Yes; we have some desperate cases" hero. I waiit to make a suggestion here. This driuking goes on here, and a kind of insurrection is always started by something like what we call the "white trash" here, boys with just a little Indian Mood. Like bootlegging — those boys could put their citizens' clothes on and go to town in any saloon and get the whisky and bring it back here and give it to the boys, or give it to them hi town. The Chairman. How many of that class of beys are in the school? Mr. Denny. Not so very many. I could not say in round numbers. The Chairman. Don't you think that by calling the attention of the officers to these boys the persons who sell liquor in the town could be prevented from furnishing them liquor? Mr. Denny. You can hardly tell. The "bartenders in town will not — I know there is not one bartender that will whisky to an Indian boy. The Chairman. If he knows it ? Mr. Denny. Yes. The Chairman. It would seem that if the officers could become acquainted with the boys in school who have so much white blood in them that there in no noticeable Indian blood, it might be very easily prevented. Mr. Denny. Yes. I give you an instance. This Louis Braun that was here last night —I sent the boys in full uniform to chapel with the rest of the students. That Louis Braun sneaked out back of my quarters, and another large boy, a white boy, a cousin of his, passed him his citizen's clothes through the window, and he was changing his clothing to leave the grounds for the night. Those are the kind of characters we have here. The Chairman. Is Louis Braun among the tough boys in the school ? Mr. Denny. No; not really. He has never done wrong here. He goes to school all day and eats and sleeps largely. The Chairman. What is the relationship between the superin- tendent and the bandmaster ? Mr. Denny. A very close friend, as far as I could understand. The Chairman. Does he appear to exert any influence or control over the superintendent ? Mr. Denny. Yes. The Chairman. In what particular? Mr. Denny. Well, his suggestions; the suggestions that he makes; his general stand. This bandmaster is just a bandmaster; he is not a disciplinarian, but he is taken in about the discipline of the school. 1056 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. TESTIMONY OF MRS. NELLIE ROBERTSON DENNY. Vr ? tne "rK M Y^a^e^Sf°S?S£^ disciplinarian? S-H^^S^^^i^^O^ yourself* Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In what capacity' Mrs Denny I entered as a teacher, taught four years, and then I was clerk and assistant clerk for eight years, and in charge of the outing system for two years. ' The Chairman. Do you live on the school premises? Mrs. Denny. Yes sir. The Chairman. How long nave you lived there s Mrs. Denny. You mean, taking my time as a student? The Chairman. All together, yes. Mrs. Denny. All together, I came here in 1880. The Chairman. Have you been here practically continuously since ? Mrs. Denny. I was three years at home and about four years at a normal school, but while I was at the normal school my name was kept on the rolls here. The Chairman. Are you familiar with conditions prevailing in the Carlisle Institute ? Mrs. Denny. Pretty well. The Chairman. What is the condition here with reference to discipline among the students? Is it good or bad? How do the pupils esteem the superintendent and what is the relationship between students as a whole and the superintendent? Mrs. Denny. I think they do not like him in the first place and they do not seem to be afraid of him. The Chairman. Do they respect him? Mrs. Denny. They do not respect him. The Chairman. How long has this condition been prevailing in the school. Mrs. Denny. It has been growing. I can not say just when it started, but last year and this year it has been pretty bad. The Chairman. What are the moral conditions ? Mrs. Denny. Pretty good now among the girls. Of course, I can not tell very much about the large boys. The Chairman. Do you hear of much drinking among the boys ? Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir. Not among our boys. The Chairman. The larger boys ? Mrs. Denny. No. The small boys. We have had only one drunk in small boys' quarters this year. The Chairman. What ages are embraced within the small boys' quarters ? Mrs. Denny. I think from 8 or 9 years up to about 20 Some of our officers are about 20 years old, X think. I he Chairman. What are the characteristics of the di««,v^,. +W you observe and hear of among the pupils * disorder that Mrs Denny. One of them is drunkenness, and °v>; W.n A P crmi l s ™'\ and not in uniforms as they aio £° ln £ fc ,° town Well, tluxt is what I can see outwardly 7 ° rec Unred to be. CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1057 The Chairman. Have you seen or heard manifestations of dis- courtesy or disrespect from the students to the superintendent ? Mrs. Denny. Just lately I heard. The Chairman. Tell us about it. Mrs. Denny. I think it was Mr. Denny that told me about it. I forget where I got my information. The Chairman. You do not know of your own personal knowledge ? Mrs. Denny. No. The Chairman. Well, you need not state it then. Have you observed how the children are clothed and fed ? Mrs. Denny. I have heard that they have not always had enough food, and in my experience while I was outing agent I know they do not get sufficient clothing while out. The Chairman. When was that? Mrs. Denny. This was about two years ago. The Chairman. What about shoes ? Mrs. Denny. In very bad condition. We had more requests for shoes from outing pupils, but they refused to furnish them. They said they had used up their allowance, and consequently they either had to take their earnings or patrons would give them shoes. The Chairman. Have you ever visited the dining room while pupils \ are being served ? Mrs. Denny. Not recently. I have now and then taken visitors ui there. The Chairman. Is the complaint general among the pupils that they are not properly fed ? Mrs. Denny. I have heard it from the girls, and I have heard it from the boys. The Chairman. Do they complain they do not get enough bread ? Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; that is the complaint, and that the food is not always properly cooked. They have a sufficient amount, but not well cooked sometimes. The Chairman. What is the general state of feeling on the part of pupils at Carlisle now toward the management of the school ? Mrs. Denny. I think they are — well, discouraged. The Chairman. Are they rebellious ? Mrs. Denny. At one time last spring they showed very strong evidence of it. And this spring, too— of course I do not see this myself, but I heard that they were, and I know that last year that spirit was very strong, and now it seems to be. There is an under- current that we all feel, but we just can not explain. The Chairman. What is the relationship between the superintend- ent and the employees ? Do you know how they regard him ? Mrs. Denny. There is great discord, I think, in a great many cases. The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for the condi- tions here ? . , , ■, F i ^ Mrs. Denny. It would be either the removal of several employees, or the removal of the head; one or the other. The Chairman. One of those two remedies might prove successful in restoring order in the school and bringing better conditions ? Mrs. Denny. I hope so; yes, sir. . The Chairman. Have you any antagonism or personal animosity toward the superintendent ? 35601— pt 11—14 7 1058 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mrs. Denny. Not any. The Chairman. Your relationship with the employees was pleasant ? Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; it is, and always has been. Representative Stephens. Have you a bakery here in the school ? Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; quite a good bakery. Representative Stephens. Where do they get their flour and ma- terials ? Mrs. Denny. I really do not know that. Representative Stephens. Do they have any flour ground from wheat raised on the school farm ? Mrs. Denny. I do not know that. Representative Stephens. They raise vegetables on the farm, don't they? Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; most of the vegetables are raised in the garden we have down here. Representative Stephens. Are those used on the tables ? Mrs. Denny. I think they are. Representative Stephens. Do they make butter, and have you milk from the cows that belong to the school ? Mrs. Denny. They have separated milk, I think, and butter about once a week, I have heard the girls say. Representative Stephens. Do they sell any of the butter from the cows belonging to the school ? Mrs. Denny. I could not say about that. Representative Stephens. Do you know anything about the sys- tem of getting students here from all over the country? Do they send men out from this school to collect students ? Mrs. Denny. Now and then they do; but I think most of that work is done by correspondence, which Mr. Meyer handles. Representative Stephens. Mr. Meyer then writes to the reserva- tions and parents of the children ? Mrs. Denny. Yes; and to ex-students and graduates. He works through them. Representative Stephens. Works through the students that have been here, and they collect the students that are sent here ? Mrs. Denny. Yes; and then, I think the agents 1 know that agents and other employees have brought several parties here. Representative Stephens. Are they brought here against their will? Mrs. Denny. I do not think so. I do not think any pupils are re- ceived before they sign what they call an application blank. Representative Stephens. Do you know anything about the girl that was beaten by Bandmaster Stauffer ? Mrs. Denny. I heard about that last spring. Representative Stephens. You did not see it? Mrs. Denny. I did not see it; no, sir; I do not know much about the circumstances. TESTIMONY OF MRS. BERTHA D. CANFIELD, TEACHER. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. Mrs. Canfield. I have been at Carlisle 14 years and in the Indian Service 20 years. My experience entitles me to stand in protection of these children. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1059 Mr. Friedman has given his first attention to the outside appear- ance of the school, but there is nothing in buildings when the moral standing of the school is neglected. He has used the good name Gen. Pratt made for the school to ad- vertise himself. I feel that he is wholly unfit for superintendent, that he has neglected his duty to the pupils in talking to them and advising them. Gen. Pratt never failed in talking to them each day and telling them what to do ; helping them in ways that were uplifting in char- acter. The moral side of the school has never before been as low in the history of the school as under Mr. Friedman. He failed to assist and cooperate with Miss Gaither in most serious cases of discipline with the girls. He ordered Miss Gaither to go with the girls to the gymnasium. She protested, saying there was no one on duty at girls' quarters; that it was unsafe to leave the punished girls there alone. But at his request she was obliged to go ; the result was that some boys got into girls' quarters and spent the evening with the girls. , whose immoral character was well known, was one of these girls. After all this — was allowed to sing in public entertainments before the pupils and was taken to public places with the band, to Harrisburg to sing before the governor, and other public places, singing "Redwing" and dressing in Indian costume. This was done against the wish of the matron. Miss Gaither had requested before this that be sent home. If the matron's wish had been complied with in the beginning, it would have been better for and her associates. At the pageant at Philadelphia a year ago last fall a number of these girls were taken for public display with a large number of boys. There was an excellent chaperone with them, but it was not safe for the girls to be out of her sight. The first downfall of one of our best girls occurred there. After her return to the school Amos Komah, one of the boys who was with her at the pageant, went to her room and spent the night. This was reported the next day to Miss Gaither. : — was to go to Philadelphia again to sing, but Miss Gaither said she should not go with her permission. Mr. Friedman was very angry, just furious, that she had made the report until after she had been to Philadelphia and returned. Both Amos Komah and were sent home, each to their own home without being compelled to marry. , a returned student, came back to take telegraphy, but was not allowed to enter this department. They would have admitted her as a pupil; she refused to be admitted as a pupil in the regular school course; she would not sign for anything else except for telegraphy. She went to town to the hotel. The people at the hotel asKed the school to see that she was removed from there. The disciplinarian was requested to take her to Harrisburg. This he did. Mr. Friedman refused to purchase a ticket to take her farther than Harrisburg. The girl said she had no money to buy a ticket to take her to her home. The disciplinarian gave her what change he had in his pocket, which was 40 cents, and told her to look up the Salva- tion Army headquarters for protection. So she was left unaided and unprotected in Harrisburg. 1060 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The superintendent has gone to the extreme in cooperating with Miss Ridenour, the present matron. Sixteen or more girls have been expelled within the past year. Some of these girls who have been sent home have been unjustly treated. -, who had a food record in the country and here was a good little girl. So far as know her only misbehavior was that she was impudent to the matron in defending her sister. Mrs. Posey, who saw the treatment of the child when she was expelled, said she would never forgive them for such treatment to the child. , one of the girls who had graduated, was here taking the commercial course. She has made a good record and many friends. She was taken out of Hue, expelled from school, sent home immediately without chance for defense. The school should help and build up character rather than condemn these girls. If the superintendent had done his duty it would not have been necessary to have expelled these girls. Mr. Friedman gave Miss Gaither to understand that she had nothing to do with the discipline of the girls at the hospital, although at that time the discipline there was very lax. was here at the school taking training as nurse. After she graduated in the academic course and returned home she made known her condition and that Joseph Loudbear, one of the boys at school was the father of the child. The school did not compel Joseph to marry her although his conduct and record here had been such that no one doubted that what she said was true; instead he was recommended to be sent as an employee to some western school and he did not marry her until some Christian people followed the case. , one of our favorite Alaskan girls fell the victim of a football boy; Sampson Bird met her in town on girls' day. The amusements, such as dancing and receptions, have been detrimental to the school as they have been carried to the extreme. It is useless to maintain a school like this without having a strong moral Christian man at the head as superintendent. Mr. Friedman has never had the confidence or respect of the pupils. He does not work in sympathy with employees. When I have gone to him about matters concerning myself and the school he has told me to get out; that he would sign my transfer. He would talk in a loud tone, growl, and be heard by the orderlies all over the house; try to frighten and bluff us by such manners. He posed as a friend to the Indians. At the time my third assistant, Mrs. Parker, resigned, October, 1913, I wrote to Mr. Friedman asking if I might put Ada Curtis in charge of the mending room under my supervision; that she was an all-day worker in the sewing room and had been an employee in the West and was a nice deserving girl and needed the money. I was informed by the office that pupils were not put in charge of work. I was ordered to put Miss Searight in charge of the mending, leaving her class, which was more important work, without a teacher. This showed his lack of interest in the pupil. Without consulting me he sent Miss Ridenour, a stranger, to town to get a woman to act as assistant. He also sent her to town to buy 20 yards of material for dresses when we had material in stock. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1061 Drunkenness: I have seen many boys brought home from town just as drunk as they could be. Under this administration there has been more intemperance than ever before. I make these statements with the thought in mind that they may help to make conditions better for the school. The Chairman. It seems that there has been recently quite a number of cases of young lady pupils in the school who have been unfortunate in the worst way possible. What do you attribute, these incidents to, and what do you think is the remedy for it ? Mrs. Canfield. I think the first thing we need is a father over the school, or somebody whom the children will trust and respect. The Chairman. What is the relation of the pupils in the school to the superintendent? Mrs. Canfield. As I have stated, they never have had the proper respect for him, and no love for him whatever. The Chairman. How does he treat them? What occasions that* in your judgment ? Mrs. Canfield. Well, he never has talked to them, never has been a father over them as he should have been, and he has evaded the responsibility. The Chairman. Do you think it is due to natural temperament or indifference and lack of interest? Mrs. Canfield. I think it is just lack of interest. It has im- pressed me so that it is. The Chairman. How do Miss Ridenour and the young lady pupils of the school get along ? Mrs. Canfield. Not at all well. The girls are very unhappy under her. I think Miss Ridenour is a good worker, but she seems to be unfortunate as a mother over them. The Chairman. There is a general state of hostility, is there? Representative Stephens. What do you mean by "unfortunate" ? Mrs. Canfield. She does not seem to have tact with them. I think she has been accustomed to a very different class of girls from what she has here. The Chairman. How about her temper and disposition? Mrs. Canfield. She seems not to have very good control of her temper. Representative Stephens. Does she have the confidence of the girls in any respect ? Mrs. Canfield. No; not at all. I am sorry to say she has not. Representative Stephens. They do not consult with her about any of their troubles? Mrs. Canfield. The girls say that when chey go to consult with her she does not see them; she is not willing to consult with them. The Chairman. You say there were sixteen girls expelled m less than , Mrs. Canfield. That is just the ones that I have track of. The Chairman. There may be more? • Mrs. Canfield. I do not know how many more. Ihere may have been some sent home from the country. The Chairman. What are the reasons principally lor these ex- pulsions? , , . Vi , ,1, Mrs. Canfield. They are mostly for immorality except three or four, and 1062 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. What are the relations of the employees toward Mr. Friedman ? Mrs. Canfield. I think they generally feel that he is not capable. The Chairman. Then there is no cordiality of feeling between the pupils and the superintendent or the employees and the super- intendent ? Mrs. Canfield. No. The Chairman. The relations are strained both as to the pupils and the employees ? Mrs. Canfield. Yes, except just a few employees. The Chairman. Is the discipline in the school improving or grow- ing worse? Mrs. Canfield. Well, it is not any better. Things have been rather obstreperous the last few weeks. The Chairman. Explain a little bit more in detail what you mean. Are the pupils rensentful and rebellious or mutinous ? Mrs. Canfield. Yes, they seem to be rebellious, a good many of them. Boys have been drinking. The Chairman. Do you know of loyal friends of the superintend- ent among the young men? Do you know who they are? Mrs. Canfield. The pupils? The Chairman. Yes. Mrs. Canfield. No; I understood that William Garlow was. I do not know that he is a loyal friend, but I understand that he waa ready to betray his fellows. The Chairman. Now, you have supervision of the sewing de- partment? Mrs. Canfield. Yes. The Chairman. How many persons are engaged in that depart- ment? Mrs. Canfield. I have three assistants. The Chairman. They detail girls to take instruction in that work? Mrs. Canfield. Yes. The Chairman. How many girls are usually detailed ? Mrs. Canfield. I have, I think, 42 in one division now, and 46 in another; 46 in the morning, and 42 in the evening. The Chairman. Do they make pretty good progress in that- work? Mrs. Canfield. Some of them do pretty well. Of course, they are children, most of them. The Chairman. What about the clothing that is supplied to chil- dren here ? Is it sufficient and comfortable ? Mrs. Canfield. Yes, I think so. I think that the clothing is satis- factory, as far as I know. There is great destruction of clothing here. The Chairman. Naturally, I suppose ? Mrs. Canfield. Yes. The Chairman. Is the clothing of the small boys sent to you to be repaired ? Mrs. Canfield. Everything, except their trousers and coats. They are not sent to us. They used to be, however, and I do not know why they stopped sending them. The Chairman. You never had any information about it? Mrs. Canfield. No. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1063 TESTIMONY OF ME. JOHN WHITWEII, PRINCIPAL TEACHER. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. T Jie Chairman. You are the principal teacher at Carlisle Institute ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. _ The Chairman. How many pupils are there in this school * What is the average dailyattendance now? Mr. Whitwell. We have 816 on the roll. I have not a report on the average to-day. The Chairman. Any given day that you have it for. Mr. Whitwell. At the present time all except eight are in attend- ance, so that there are on the roll about 708. There is 160 of those in the country. The Chairman. How long have you been employed as principal teacher here ? Mr. Whitwell. About six years. The Chairman. What are your duties in a general way as principal teacher ? Mr. Whitwell. Well, to outline programs for the whole school ■ The Chairman. How many teachers are there under your super- vision ? Mr. Whitwell. There are 15. The Chairman. All these you refer to now give class instruction, do they? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is the general state of the school with reference to academic work and progress in studies? Is it satis- factory to you, Mr. Whitwell ? Mr. Whitwell. It never has been. The Chairman. Do you think it is improving, or not ? Mr. Whitwell. I have noticed an improvement, lately, due to the fact that I am now giving all of my time to the academic work, whereas for two or three years previously I was spending half of my time up at the office on clerical work. The Chairman. Do you visit the various class rooms ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; that is part of my duties. The Chairman. How often do you get around ? Mr. Whitwell. Well, I have no stated time to visit. Now, for instance, this last three days we have been writing compositions on "citizenship," according to instructions from the Indian Office. We had very explicit instructions, and I made a point to visit the rooms a little more during the writing of those compositions than I otherwise would. But, as a rule, my duties in the office and the demands made of me in the office, of course, you realize that every serious case of discipline comes to me, and I must be ready when they come. As a rule my office work keeps me from spending very much time in the class room. Then I have other ways of supervising the work of the teachers. Their work must come in daily, so I know what is going on in every room every day. The Chairman. Do many cases of discipline come to you ? Mr. Whitwell. Not many serious cases; quite a number of what I would consider — the teachers sometimes considers them serious. The Chairman. To what do you attribute the fact that the progress in class-room work is not satisfactory ? 1064 OABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Whitwell. First of all, there has been considerable pressure put on the industiial work. One of my own main efforts as principal teacher has been to correlate the academic and industrial work, but still the superintendent, leaning almost entirely that way himself, has made it a little harder. Teachers have said to me that it seems he cares nothing about the academic side of it. Then the athletic influence too — the pupils do not seem to fully realize the advantages they have in that line. The Chairman. You think undue prominence is given to athletics ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes; I do. The Chairman. Are pupils taken away from the industrial work and out of the classes for athletic engagements ? Mr.- Whitwell. Yes; they are taken directly, but there is more what I might call taken indirectly. For instance, if there were not so many boys on the football squads — our best boys and the boys best able to do the work — it would not be necessary to take students away from their half day in school. The Chairman. How many boys are there on football squads, for instance ? Mr. Whitwell. It would be hard for me to say, but I have seen five and six teams playing at once and a number on the side lines. It looks like practically the whole school is over there. I do not very often go over there to look at it. The Chairman. Have they the baseball spirit pretty well devel- oped ? Mr. Whitwell. There is practically no baseball. They substi- tuted "la crosse" for baseball. The Chairman. Relative to the accounts of the pupils and the sending of checks. What have you to say about that? Mr. Whitwell. At one time after Mr. Friedman first came here he had me sign the pupils' checks. I signed them for him. As you can see, there is a large number of checks. For instance, every town day, as we call it, if it is a boys' day to go to town it is boys' checks, and if it is the girls' day to go to town it is the girls' checks. It took quite a little of his time and he had me sign those checks. The regu- lations were that they were not to draw more than one-half of their savings account— so much allowed each week. I kept on sending those checks until the time of the Pennsylvania game. Then there was an unusual number, more than four times as many as had been coming to me, and I inquired of the clerk, or made the remark, how it was there were so many and if all these were entitled to draw. He said, " WelLwepayno attention to the regulations for the Pennsylvania game; we allow them to overdraw. If they have any money at all we allow them to get it." I studied that over and realized that that was hard on some of them. Of course, it was only natural they would want to go to the game whether they could afford it or not. "Then I realized it was vio- lating the regulations, and if I did it once I would establish a prece- dent, so I refused to sign them and explained to Mr. Friedman why. He says, "Well, that is nothing; somebody else will sign them." The Chairman. Is it not a fact that pupils spend a considerable amount of their own money, that they can ill afford to spare, in rail- road fare and personal expenses attending these football games ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1065 Mr. Whitwell. Not any extent, except the Pennsylvania game. There is a particular effort made then, because they charter a special car and they have to have so many in order to get the car. The Chairman. What special privileges are accorded the boys on the football squads ? Mr. Whitwell. Well, m the first place, they have a separate building. For instance, comparing the athletes with the officers, the officers have to room with the rest of the boys and take just what the rest of the boys take. The athletes have their own special building, specially furnished rooms, and their own training table, and they are looked up to quite different from an officer. An officer is nothing compared with an athlete, so much so that few boys care to be officers. The Chairman. What effect does that have on the other pupils ? Mr. Whitwell. It naturally leads the others to think that if they can get into athletics there is something to gain by it. The Chairman. Do you know of instances of boys being put on the student roll, sometimes as employees, to play football ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes; I do. Bruce Groesbeck was carried on the roll as an employee until the football season came. He was carried as a student during the football season. He was put back on the employees' roll after the football season. The Chairman. Is there an agricultural department ? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; there used to be. The Chairman. Why was it abolished ? Mr. Whitwell. Well, there seemed to be nobody to push that side of it, and it seemed as if the superintendent did not care for it. Prob- ably the trades were more in his mind at that time. I do not know. Representative Stephens. When was it abolished ? Mr. Whitwell. That must have been, as near as I can state, three or four years ago. We had an agricultural teacher and a nice depart- ment. The farms are over there now. The Chairman. You used to have a department of telegraphy and a department of harness making? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Why were those both abolished ? Mr. Whitwell. Telegraphy practically abolished itself. It did not have any success. It was evidently a mistake to put it in. For instance, we had to give up one of our schoolrooms to it and put the class in a less desirable room. There were never more than five or six boys in it. The teacher could not be there more than an hour, and the pupils were resting the remainder of the time. Representative Stephens. They still carry that in their catalogue i Mrf Whitwell. Yes; it is in the catalogue, and the agricultural department, too. The Chairman. And harness making, too ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes; and harness-making. . The Chairman. Do you know how the athletic fund is handled, in a ge M? a WmTWELL. All I know is that we outsiders only kno w that four of them have anything to do with it-the superintendent the football coach, our athletic director, and Mr. Miller, who keep? the accounts and is paid something for keeping them out of the athletic money; and then they are audited by John W. Ray. 1066 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Are additional salaries paid Government employ- ees out of athletic funds ? Mr. Whitwell. It is commonly reported so ; and I know that when Maj. Mercer was leaving here he expected to retire, and he was fighting to come back; and he asked me if I would be willing to be assistant superintendent when he came back, and I said I preferred my own line of work. "Well," he said, "you can work over there, and I will see you get $500 more out of the athletic money." So, I judge from that and I know from questions asked me by the coach — it seems he is in touch with those who draw salaries out of both places. The Chairman. The coach occupies a Government building? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And receives a salary of $4,000 ? Mr. Whitwell. I do not know. The Chairman. He is not a Government employee ? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. Representative Stephens. What is his name ? Mr. Whitwell. Glenn Warner, the coach. The Chairman. Do you know the assistant quartermaster, Mr. Stewart ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What are his habits with reference to drinking? Mr. Whitwell. Well, from rumors here and from what I do know, I would consider him a man of very poor habits. The Chairman. What did he do that gave him that reputation? Did he drink ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes; he drank. He was found drunk on the premises with one of our football boys. The Chairman. Was he drunk on the grounds here, you say? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; he was found drunk by Mr. Dickey. The Chairman. With one of the football boys ? Mr. Whitwell. One of the football boys. The Chairman. What was his name ? Do you remember? Mr. Whitwell. Gus Welch. He is not here now; he has gone home. The Chairman. Stewart is not here either, is he ? Mr. Whitwell. No. The Chairman. What is the state of feeling between you and the superintendent ? Mr. Whitwell. It is anything but what it should be. The Chairman. It is not good ? Mr. Whitwell. It is not good. The Chairman. What caused that? Mr. Whitwell. Well, in the first place it is a pretty long story to give it to you as it ought to be. The Chairman. Give it as briefly as you can. Mr. Whitwell. I doubt if there was ever any extra good feeling between us, although I was glad when he came here as superintendent, and even when others began to criticise him I stood up for him. When pupils wrote "the Jew" and such things on the blackboard, and the teacher reported it to me, I took it up before the whole student body, roasted them as well as I knew how, and tried to shame them. But, of course, he never took any great interest in academic work, CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1067 and I am an academic man, pure and simple, and, as I have tried to show, I have tried to correlate the industrial work with it. We got along fairly well — that is, we had no serious trouble — until he began to run for Commissioner of Indian Affairs, I might say. It seems there had been a protest sent in against his appointment as commissioner on the grounds that he had falsified the attendance reports here. When I first came I had nothing to do with the at- tendance reports, although I had kept them at Haskell all the time I was there. Here it was arranged for in another way. A clerk in Mr. Miller's office had complete charge of it, and it did not fall to the academic department. So, I was somewhat surprised, when some- time in 1910, one of these reports, completed, was sent down to me to sign. I did not want to be obstinate, and while I thought it quite likely there were some names on there that should not be on it I did not have time to look into it. So, I simply signed the report and decided I would look into it before signing another if it was sent to me. The next time it was sent again. Then I had made inquiries, and I asked the clerk who made it out — I said, "Are you carrying any names on here that are not present?" "Oh, yes," she said. Well, she was only a clerk, and not responsible for the reports, so I sent a note to Mr. Miller like this: "Is there any authority for carrying pupils on the roll who are no longer present? If so, I would be glad to sign the report. If not, I can not sign it, because I have had experience in these things before" — or something like that. I got no answer to the note. The report was signed by some other person. Then about a year from that time Mr. Peairs made an investigation and found a large number of students on the roll The Chairman. How many? Mr. Whitwell. If I remember right, it was pretty nearly 200, on the roll whose names should not have been there. I understand that he made a very detailed report in regard to it. Well, that did not affect me, because I do not have anything to do with making the reports, but when Mr. Friedman was called to task for it he gave the making of the reports to me. Now, there was nothing unreasonable about that; the principal teacher does that in other schools, although up to this time the thing had been planned in an entirely different way in this school. For instance, the attendance was kept by this clerk, and not only the attendance, but all the data. It was a historical record, and it was combined with the attendance, so it was impossible to separate one from the other. I said, "I will have to take these reports over to my office. He said, "No; you can not do that, because we want to use them here." I protested, and said it would make it very hard for me to supervise my own work under those circumstances. "Well," he said, "we have to have this thing kept right," and I told him he could keep it. So I commenced then to keep those records in the financial clerk's office, the records that had been kept by a special clerk up to that time. Consequently, I was away from my regular work. I have kept those reports ever since. But about a year ago Mr. Friedman allowed me to have a duplicate set of cards made and keep the at- tendance only in my own office, and that is the way the academic work has improved, because I am here to look after it. 1068 OABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Now, Mr. Whitwell, the effect of representing the enrollment as largely in excess of what it actually was, if I under- stand the matter, was to make a better showing for the school as to expense per pupil than it actually would bo under the facts ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes; that is the idea. Every superintendent likes to show up a large enrollment. Then, at that time, he was running for commissioner The Chairman. In that connection, I am going to insert in the record a copy of the report of Mr. Peirce as supervisor, and you need not go into that in further detail at this time. (The report referred to is as follows :) Report op Charles F. Peirce, Supervisor. Carlisle, Pa., February BO, 1911. In comparing the actual attendance reports, as shown by the daily reports from the matron and disciplinarian, and the quarterly report for the quarter ending Decem- ber 31, 1910, it became evident that there were many more pupils on the attendance report than were actually entitled to enrollment. As shown by the quarterly report for the second quarter, the enrollment was 1,042 pupils, while the records of the matron and disciplinarian showed that there were actually on the premises at that time 645 pupils, in addition to 211 who were on the outing list. This left a discrepancy of 186 pupils, 96 of whom were carried as "On leave" and 90 as "Runners," some of whom had been absent from the school for nearly three years. In looking into the daily records for the month of January, it was found that 90 pupils were dropped from the rolls on the 23d of tlut month. The cause of this action was not learned until I reached the Indian Office on February 17, and found that the same had been taken in accordance with orders from the department, as a result of an inspection made by Inspector McLauglilin some weeks before. Inasmuch as the cases, so-called "Runners," has no doubt been thoroughly investigated and reported upon by the inspector, I will make no further reference to them, except to say that the period of absence from the school in their cases exceeds that of the so-called "On leave" pupils. The following shows the exact enrollment and attendance on December 31, 1910, and on February 7, 1911, when the discrepancies were first noted: On prem- ises. Outing pupils. On leave. Runners. Total. Dec. 31, 1910: Girls 240 405 119 92 46 50 1 89 406 636 Total 645 211 96 90 After dropping 96 pupils on January 23, 1911, as ordered by the department, the records on February 7, 1911, showed the following: On prem- ises. Outing. On leave. Runners. Total. Feb. 7, 1911: Girls 246 415 117 81 33 48 396 4 543 Total 661 198 81 4 In looking into the " On leave " records, I found that many of these had been absent from the school for months and years, as some were dead, others married, and others employed in the Indian School Service. The names of the "On-leave" pupils, with date of departure from the school and number of days carried on rolls after the same, is as follows, the same having been taken from the daily records of the disciplinarian and matron: CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1069 Name of pupil. Time of de- parture. Number of days car- ried on roll. 1. Roy Feeder 2. Henry Sutton 3. Wm. P. Cook 4. Lawrence Poodry 5. Ed. Williams 6. Walter Robertson 7. Harry Woodbury 8. Jas. Lydick 9. John Doyle 10. Ned Stevenson 11. Mitchell Moscow 12. Howard Purse 13. Sampson Burd 14. Wm. Beaudion 15. Oscar Boyd 16. Joe Cannon 17. George Chew 18. Jas. Crowe 19. Judson Caby 20. Earl Dextate 21. John Dond 22. John Ginnes 23. Michael Gordon 24. Walter Hamilton (married) 25. Peter Houser 26. Abel Hopkins 27. Leonard Jacobs 28. Joseph Libby 29. Oce Locustt 30. Elsworth Manning 31. Wm. M. Bull 32. John Menhart (penitentiary) 33. Wm. Newashe 34. Jacob Paul 35. Elbert Payne 36. Walker Peune 37. Howard Peirce 38. Allison Pollock (no record— several months) . 39. Chas. M. Ross 40. Curtis Redneck 41. Reno Howland 42. Chas. W. Ryan 43. Asa Sweetcorn 44. Hulsie Seneca 45. Arthur Smith 46. John White 47. John Weslebear 48. Mitchel White 49. Arline Allen 50. Elizabeth Baird (employed at Pipestone) . . . 51. Bessie Button 52. Esther Browning 53. Grace Burnette 54. Emma Clairmont 55. Agnes Cabay 56. Lizzie Cardish (married) 67. Rachel Chase 58. Olive Chisholm 59. Marv Cox 60. Edna Dextate 61. Lucy Desautel 63. Mamie Bilstrop 64. Olive Gordon 65. Flora Jones (married) 66. Betsy Johnnyjohn 67. Helen M. Eagle 68. Mollie Mantel 69. Fleeta Renville 70. Germaine Renville 71. Grace Sampson 72. Ida Lands 73. Lizzie L. Eagle 74. Eva Symonds "75. Rose Simpson 76. Julia Terrence 77. Celestine Types 78. Susan Wright 79. Romena Waggoner 81. Rose Pleets(dead) Total. May 13,1909 July 4, 1909 Apr. 28,1910 May 16,1910 June 22,1910 ....do June 7, 1910 June 2, 1910 July 12,1910 Dec. 1,1910 May 10,1910 June 30,1908 Nov. 28,1910 Aug. 31,1909 Mar. 15,1910 Jan. 9, 1911 Nov. 7,1910 Sept. 23,1910 July 12,1910 4, 1909 6, 1909 7,1910 15,1910 25. 1909 23,1910 3,1911 June 23,1909 Jan. 7,1911 17,1911 5, 1909 27. 1910 1,1910 28, 1910 24,1911 12, 1909 July 22,1910 June 20,1908 Mar. Nov. Nov. Apr. Oct. Nov. Jan. Jan. Aug. Jan. July Nov. Jan. Jan. Oct. Sept. Dec. ' June Oct. Nov. May Jan. Dec. 1,1910 Nov. 26, 1910 Nov. 3,1910 Apr. 1,1910 Nov. 28,1910 June 24,1910 Mar. 3,1909 Jan. 24,1911 16. 1909 8, 1910 19. 1910 1909 21', 1910 17,1910 17,1910 19,1911 July 12,1910 Dec. 6, 1910 Dec. 7,1910 Feb. 4, 1911 Dec. 7, 1909 June 20,1909 Nov. 25,1910 Nov. 23,1910 Oct. 12,1910 15,1910 8, 1910 24,1909 4,1911 June 23,1909 ....do July 9, 1909 July 27,1910 Sept. 10, 1910 Dec. 19,1910 June 23,1910 Mar. 7, 1910 Nov. 25,1910 Nov. 8,1910 Sept. 1,1909 Feb. 4,1911 Aug. Apr. Aug. Jan. 22,071 1070 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. There being no record as to the departure of Allison Pollock (No. 39) this would show that 90 "On-leave" pupils have been carried on the rolls for a total of 22,071 days, or that the 80 pupils have been carried for an average period of 275.9 days each. As stated heretofore, the "Runners" had been carried for a still longer period before being dropped, January 23, 1911. The record as to runaway pupils absent without leave on February 7, 1911, give the following information: Name. Departure. Days absent. Dec. 27,1910 Jan. 24,1910 Dee. 23,1910 Jan. 3, 1911 43 15 47 36 Total 144 The above shows that the four runaway pupils absent on February 7, 1911, have been absent for an average period of 35.2 days. It appears that it has been the custom to carry the "On-leave" pupils for a time, in order to "keep the average attendance up to the proper figure," and this has been passed over from time to time, doubtless, until the number of days such pupils were absent reach such an enormous figure. "Upon the attention of Supt. Friedman being called to this matter and he made to understand that average enrollment was not considered, instead of average attendance the 81 " On leave' ' pupils were dropped from the rolls on February 8th, so that the actual enrollment of the school on February 9, 1911, was as follows: On premises. Outing. Runners. Total. Girls 246 415 117 81 363 4 500 Total 661 198 4 863 I would say here that the record of issues of rations from the commissary does not show that rations have been issued in excess of the number actually present. As is shown on the quarterly report for the second quarter, no less than 85 tribes were enrolled, coming from all parts of the United States, and one is lead to believe that either Carlisle has been quite active in discovering Indian tribes in Massachu- setts, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Virginia, Louisiana, and other States heretofore unexplored by representatives of the Indian School Service, or that the school has been remarkably well advertised. Believing that there were pupils in attendance who were not entitled to enroll- ment, an individual examination of each pupil was decided upon, and in company with Supervisor Peairs a careful examination of every pupil on the premises was made. This examination proved that our doubts as to eligibility of certain pupils were well grounded, for a number of positive ineligibles were found. A report covering these cases, as well as those whose homes are within reach of and who have attended public schools, will be made special as soon as additional data can be obtained. The matter of necessity for enrollment of New York Indians is also made a subject for special report. This individual examination of pupils also revealed the fact that the ages as given on the quarterly report are not correct, the report generally showing the age at admission from one to four years ago instead of at the present time. The scheme for industrial training* seems to be well carried out, for time is given regu- larly to instruction, as well as to productive work. A copy of a letter from Superin- tendent Friedman to heads of all departments is herewith inclosed, and I find that the order is being well carried out. The industrial force of employees is an exceptionally strong one, and good results are being obtained. It is noted, however, that in the sewing room too much manufacturing of articles furnished on the annual estimate is done at the expense of instructive work. Such articles as canton flannel underwear, boys' wool and white shirts, are made here, CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1071 while .it other phcee they are secured with the annual estimate supplies, thus reliev- ing the sewing room of a vast amount of unnecessary work, and giving time for the desired regular instruction. The outing system as managed here seems to be a very important feature of the work, and can not help but be very valuable training to the yourg Indians who are given the opportunity offered them. I have gone over the records of the office of the outing department very carefully and believe that the school is keeping in very close touch with pupils and patrons. It is evident that care is taken in placing the pupils in homes of good character; also that the character of pupils, religious affilia- tions, etc., are taken into consideration in all cases. Two outing agents, one for boys and one for girls, give their whole time to this work, being in the field nearly all of the time, visiting the pupils in their homes, and making drily reports as to their con- dition, etc. At this date, February 11, 1911, there are 202 pupils "placed out," and arrangements are being made whereby several hundred more will "go to the country-" about the 1st of April. At present 24 States and Territories are represented in the outing list, as is shown by the following: Home State of outing pupils, Feb. 11, 1911. New York 65 New Mexico 15 Michigan ] 5 Oklahoma 12 South Dakota 12 Wisconsin 11 North Dakota 10 North Carolina 10 Washington 9 Louisiana 6 Nebraska 6 Wyoming 5 Arizona 4 Massachusetts 4 Montana 3 California 4 Idaho 2 Maine 2 Oregon 1 New Jersey 1 Minnesota 1 Utah 1 Alaska 1 Kansas 1 From the foregoing it will be seen that the country from Maine to California and from Alaska to Louisiana is represented. It is also to be noted that the State of New York furnishes 65, Michiganl5, Louisiana 6, Massachusetts 4, Maine 2, and New Jersey 1, or nearly one-half of these outing pupils, who are supposed to be placed out in order to be surrounded by civilizing influence, and it seems to me to be rather of a severe comment on these States to have it reported that their children are sent to the State of Pennsylvania to be civilized. I am of the opinion that while the outing system is getting excellent results, it is not being handled eo as to reach the children of the so-called "Indian country," whose homes are not in cities and towns or to be reached from the trolley cars therefrom. It would seem as if this matter should receive careful consideration, and that pupils from the far West or "Indian country" be given the advantages of the outing system, and that those enrolled from eastern cities and towns, or from eastern reservations, located in the heart of civilized communities, be kept at the school to carry on the work of the institution. Samples of correspondence with patrons as to pupils, monthly report and rules for out- ing system are herewith inclosed for your examination. Respectfully submitted. Chas. F. Peikce, Supervisor of Indian Schools. Department op the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, March $1, 1911. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: I respectfully call attention to certain portions of a report on the Carlisle Indian School recently submitted by Supervisor Charles F. Pierce. Under section 3, student body, the superior lists 81 pupils who were carried on the rolls at Carlisle for periods varying from a few days up to almost three years after their departure from the school, making a total attendance of 22,071 days, during Which time pupils, although carried on the rolls, were not in actual attendance. I call attention to this matter because it seems to me of very great importance that all 1072 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. schools follow the same rule with reference to the dropping of pupils fro 1 either when they go on leave or when they desert from the school. A circular giving instructions on this particular point was recently sent out from the office, and I trust that in the future the quarterly attendance reports which are sent to the office may be more carefully studied than they have been in the past, in order that the instruc- tions issued in the late circular may be in fact carried into effect. The quarterly school attendance reports c ive a great deal of information which has not been care- fully examined and used, and it seems to me that it should be made the duty of some particular person to examine the quarterly school attendance reports with very great care. The supervisor also calls attention to the enrollment at Carlisle of a great many stu- dents whose horne3 are in communities where there are good public schools; for instance, from the State of New York, 214; Massachusetts, 17; Maine, 3; New Jer- sey, 3; Louisiana, 17; Virginia, 1; and Michigan, a large number. The fact that there are so many pupils enrolled at this particular school who could attend public schools is certainly not in harmony with the effort that is being made to eliminate such children from the Indian schools and to enroll them in public schools. I feel very certain that there is no need whatever of the Government expending any money in educating Indian children from the State of New York. In this connection I desire to call attention to a special report submitted by Super- visor Pierce on school facilities for Indians in the State of New York, dated March 14, 1911. At my suggestion Supervisor Pierce went to New York and spent several days visiting and inspecting the State schools for the Indians, and his report cer- tainly indicates that the State of New York is providing very liberally for the educa- tion of its Indians. I recently visited the little band of Chittimatchie Indians of Louisiana, from which tribe 17 children are enrolled at Carlisle. I found that they all lived within easy reach of public schools. However, there is considerable opposition to their enroll- ment in such schools. The smaller cnildren are attending a day school conducted by the Catholic sisters, and are therefore quite well provided for. It is probably jus- tifiable to enroll a few of the older children of the tribe at Carlisle, in order that they may have industrial training, but there should not be any of the younger children enrolled in any Indian school. An examination of the list of pupils enrolled at Carlisle, whose homes are within reasonable distances of the public schools, will show that there are a great many children who live in villages and towns in the various sections of the country. I am of the opinion that one-third of the pupils enrolled at Carlisle could have public-school opportunities equal to thoae of their white neighbors if they were debarred from enrollment in Indian schools. I desire to call attention also to the fact that the ages of pupils given in the quar- terly school-attendance report for the Carlisle School are, in a great majority of of instances, incorrect. It seems that the custom of giving the age at the time of enroll- ment at Carlisle has been followed, and that those ages have not been changed at all on the quarterly attendance report. Under these circumstances, there are pupils at Carlisle who, having been there five, six, seven, or eight years, are that much older than shown on the attendance report. This matter certainly should be cor- rected at once. In section 5 of the report the supervisor calls attention to the fact that the pupils' records are not being kept at Carlisle in accordance with instructions sent out last year. The method now in use is such as to make it very difficult to get full information concerning any one student in the school, and I strongly indorse the recommendation of the supervisor that the Carlisle pupils' records should be kept in the same manner as they are in other schools. Respectfully, H. B. Peairs, Supervisor. Mr. Whitwell. Yes. Mr. Peairs asked me to substantiate some of those facts. I gave an affidavit as to what I knew about the reports. Of course, it was given confidentially, but as soon as it was brought up I showed the whole correspondence and affidavit to Mr. Friedman to let him know I was doing nothing underhanded. Kepresentative Stephens. When was this report made ? Mr. Whitwell. This report must have been made, I think it was in 1911; about February, 1911, if I remember. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1073 Novv, when Mr. Friedman found that these things had been said in regard to keeping the report he went into my office. I should say that before that Mr. Meyer told me that he had given Mr. Fried- man an affidavit against Mr. Peairs and I told him that I was some- what surprised when I saw the affidavit. Well, he said that if Mr. Fried- man went away from here he was not sure that he would be wanted around. He made some such remark as that, and I took it to mean that it might be well for me to watch out. I went in to see Mr. Fried- man, and I asked him, "You remember the time when Supervisor Conser visited Haskell and found seven names on the report there that should not have been there?" He said yes, and he said, "1 want you to give an affidavit to that effect." I said I would be glad to do it. I said, "You write me what you want and I will be glad to do it." Then he says, "You remember that Mr. Conser told Mr. Peairs how to keep those reports in the future?" I says "Yes," and he told me — well, he says, "You remember you went on keeping them just the same as you did before?" I said, "No, sir; Mr. Friedman, you are mistaken. T kept the reports, and I know that from that day on, from the time that Mr. Conser visited Haskell, those reports were kept strictly to the letter," and I said, "the records will prove it." "No," he said, "you know that is not so." I said, "I know it is so; and if that is what you want me to do, you have got the wrong man. I will neither lie for you nor anyone else." We had some words about it, and the trouble started right away. He said that Mr. Warner and that Mr. Meyer had both given an affidavit worth having. In the meantime I had prepared my affidavit. Representative Stephens. When did that occur? Mr. Whitwell. That occurred at the time he was running for commissioner. Representative Stephens. Last fall some time? Mr. Whitwell. Last fall, I think. The Chairman. What is the general state of discipline in the school, Mr. Whitwell ? Mr. Whitwell. It is very poor. The Chairman. Is it improving or growing worse ? Mr. Whitwell. It is growing worse. The Chairman. To what, in your opinion, is it due? Mr. Whitwell. First of all, disrespect to the superintendent. The Chairman. Is that general among the pupils ? Mr. Whitwell. Very general. The Chairman. Does the same condition prevail among the bihdIovcgs ^ Mr. Whitwell. It does; perhaps not to as great an extent, but still it is very manifest. . The Chairman. Have you seen or heard manifestations ot dis- respect or discourtesy from the pupils toward the superintendent I Mr. Whitwell. I have heard of it. The Chairman. But you have not heard or seen it yourself* . Mr Whitwell. The only thing I have seen is, the last entertain- ment we had, when he was speaking to them, trying to get their ap- plause, they showed a determination not to give it; not a single clap, for instance, to things that under other circumstances would 35601— pt 11—14 8 .e 1074 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. have brought forth applause — talking about appropriations for the school, and other things. And, of course, I saw that writing on the blackboard, which I tried to rectify. That was years ago, as much as four years. The Chairman. Were there frequent complaints of injustice on the part of the superintendent toward the pupils ? Mr. Whitwell. Very frequently. The Chairman. Do you know anything about the character and quantity of food served ? Mr. Whitwell. Well, the children complained a good deal. Of course, I have no duties in the dining room, so I never go. The Chaibman. The complaint is quite general ? Mr. Whitwell. The complaint is general. The Chairman. What interest does the superintendent display in the schoolroom work ? Mr. Whitwell. Practically none until my trouble commenced with him, and then he commenced to write me letters as to what should be done, and I would like to leave the letters with you. The Chairman. Have you got them here ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; it will take considerable time to go over them, but it will show that among the charges he made was that I had neglected my duty, and until he undertook to reorganize my work it had been constantly going down. As I have already explained, it had been going down during the time I was working as clerk. Then he started to write letters to show that he was taking taking care of it. He came through the school rooms, but he would do more harm than good. If he found quite a number of pupils in one room, he would say, "Why don't you promote some of them?" and the teacher would say, "They are not ready to be promoted." We must have the proof that they are ready for it, and if they are demoted we must know that they are not able to go on. Otherwise it spoils the discipline of the school. Then he said, "Demote some of them." That is his idea of running the school. If a room is a little crowded, he will let it stay crowded rather than provide more room. The Chairman. Under date of April 14 this appears to be a copy of a letter from the superintendent to you calling for two separate reports relative to the enrollment and the attendance at Carlisle. Mr. Whitewell. Yes; that is the affidavit that he wished me to give in regard to that very thing. The Chairman. This appears to be a copy of your reply to that letter and the reports which you made. Mr. Whitewell. Yes, sir; that is the reply which he told me was not worth anything; that Mr. Miller and Mr. Warner had given him an affidavit that was. The Chairman. That will be inserted in the record. (The correspondence referred to is as follows:) ,, _ _ Carlisle, Pa., April 14, 191S. Mr. J. W. Whitwell, Principal Teacher, Carlisle, Pa. Dear Sir: The question of enrollment and attendance at Carlisle has been raised, and I would be pleased to have you make two separate reports to me, giving me the exact facts with reference thereto, in accordance with your knowledge. First. A statement covering your experience at Haskell in making out the quar- terly reports, how they were made there, and Superintendent Peairs's connection CABLISLB INDIAN SCHOOL. 1075 ■ with the making of them, whether or no deserters and students on leave were carried and whether this was done under the specific instruction of Mr. Peairs or not. Second. An affidavit stating at which time the making of the enrollment and attendance reports of the Carlisle Indian School was first placed in your hands, and whether or no they were ever taken out of your hands at any time from that time to the present. In this connection it will be well for you to state who sent you a copy of the quarterly reports for a period previous to the time when you took them over, by whom they were made up, and just why I told you it was unnecessary for you to sign the reports as requested by the clerk. Will you please say specifically whether I have at any time since you first began making the reports ever in any way interfered with your making them? Please also say whether or no you have closely followed the regulations and the facts in making out these reports. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendents United States Indian School, Carlisle, Pa., April 15, WIS. Supt. Friedman, Carlisle, Pa. Dear Sir: In reply to your letter of the 14th instant, stating that the question of enrollment and attendance at Carlisle has been raised and that you would be pleased to have me make two separate reports to you, giving you the exact facts with reference thereto, in accordance with my knowledge — First. A statement covering my experience at Haskell in making out the quarterly reports, how they were made there, and Supt. Peairs's connection with the making of them, whether or no deserters and students in leave were carried, and whether this was done under the specific instruction of Mr. Peairs or not. Second. An affidavit stating at which time the making of the enrollment and attendance reports of the Carlisle Indian School was first placed in my hands, and whether or no they were ever taken out of my hands, at any time, from that time to the present; that in this connection it will be well for me to state who sent me a copy of the quarterly reports previous to the time when I took them over, by whom they were made up, and just why you told me it was unnecessary for me to sign the reports as requested by the clerk; also, to say specifically whether you have, at any time, since I first began making the reports, ever in any way, interfered with my making them and to say whether or no I have closely followed the regulations and the facts in making out these reports — I submit the following as the facts in each case. Very respectfully, John Whitwell, Principal Teacher. United States Indian School, Carlisle, Pa., April 15, 1913. "To Supt. Friedman: Reports with reference to correspondence of April 14, 1913." First. I kept the attendance reports during the four years I was employed as prin- cipal teacher at Haskell Institute, under H. B. Peairs, superintendent. As this time was my first experience in a nonreservation school, I simply followed the instructions of the superintendent until such time as I had positive instructions from higher authority. At the end of each quarter a list of names of students no longer present was sent to Superintendent Peairs. He indicated those to be dropped by placing the letter D after their names. Some were not dropped, and when Supervisor Conser called my attention to this, I showed him the lists of names as submitted to Superin- tendent Peairs at the end of each quarter, and also showed him that I had complied strictly with Superintendent Peairs's instructions as to who should be dropped. Supervisor Conser then gave specific instructions as to how the report should be kept, so that during the remainder of my stay at Haskell I kept the reports strictly in accordance with these instructions. . . As I have already indicated, while acting under the superintendent s instructions, several students, some of whom were deserters, were carried on the rolls as present several months after they had left the Institute. Very respectfully, Jqhn Whitwell> Principal Teacher. 1076 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. [To Supt. Friedman: Second report with reference to correspondence of April 14, 1913.] United States Indian School, Carlisle, Pa., April 15, 191$. To Supt. Friedman: Reports with reference to correspondence of April 14, 1913. " Second. In regard to your request for affidavit relating to my experience with at- tendance reports at Carlisle, I find much of the information called for is already given in affidavit furnished by me to Supervisor Peairs in compliance with his request of March 19 on this same subject. To make this affidavit clearer and to give the extra information required, I will call attention to the fact as then stated; that it was on July 26, 1911, that the enroll- ment and attendance reports at Carlisle were first placed in my hands and that I have made or supervised the making of all reports since that time. I will add, that while circumstances have made this a very trying duty, I have no charges to make as to interferences on your part, and the reports have been made strictly in line with the regulations. As to who sent me a copy of the quarterly reports for a period previous to the time When I took them over, by whom they were made up, and just why you told me it was Unnecessary for me to sign the reports as requested by the clerk, the fact as already stated in my affidavit to Supervisor Peairs that, 'It was sometime in 1910 before I even saw one of these reports, that they were sent to me for signature, without any explanation, and that at that time I knew absolutely nothing as to how they were made up, ' makes it impossible for me to give a conclusive answer further than to add that I knew the reports were being made where they had always been made, viz., in the office of the financial clerk, and that Miss Reichel, an assistant in this office, brought the reports to me. Very respectfully, John Whitwell, ~Principal Teacher. Representative Stephens. How many names did they pad the -rolls with ? Mr. Whitwell. About 200, as well as I can remember. The Chairman. There is a statement in the affidavit. I find here among the letters you have submitted what purports to be a copy of a letter from Supt. Friedman to you as principal teacher, October 14, 1913, referring to charges against you for an abusive and insub- ordinate attack upon Supt. Friedman on the afternoon of October 7 in his office, by calling him a "dirty skunk. " Was that the occasion you told about ? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; this was after that. That was between both of us. There was a want of cordiality at least between us up to the time this happened, and he was doing everything from that time on to make me work hard and discount what I was doing. You will be able to tell from the letters what provocation led up to that. The Chairman. Did you reply to that letter ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Under date of October 15, the following day, you wrote the Commissioner of Indian Affairs what appears to be a communication inclosing Mr. Whitwell (interrupting). I would like to say there that I first of all wrote to the Supervisor of Indian Schools. I realized that I had done something I should not have done, and I wrote a full explanation admitting what I had done and telling him what had led up to it, and I expected and requested him to place it before the com- missioner. But that was not done, and nothing was done about it until the superintendent filed his charges. Then I sent both my let- ters to Supervisor Peairs and another one to the Commissioner in regard to the charges. They were both filed at the same time. ' The Chairman. What is the copy that I hand you ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1077 Mr Whitwell This is ^a copy of the reply to the charges men- tioned; also the letter of Supervisor Peairs, which I wish to inclose with, the others. (The letters, etc., referred to are as follows:) Indian School, „ T TT, _ . . , „ Carlisle, Pa., October 14, 1913 Mr. Joan Whitwell, Principal Teacher: ' In a letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs you are charged with making an unwarranted abusive, and insubordinate attack on the superintendent on the after- noon of October 7 m his office and calling him "a dirty skunk " It also charged that your work has not been satisfactory or up to the standard; that you have been derelict in your duty; that you have not visited the classrooms, as you should, and given instruction to the students or properly observed the work of the teachers; and that, until I undertook to reorganize your work during the past summer, it was constantly growing worse instead of better. You will be given three days to prepare such statement and give answer in such way to the charges above mentioned as you desire. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent, Indian School, ,, T Carlisle, Pa., October 15, 1913, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Dear Sir: Doubting the legality of the form of the charges as presented to me by Supt. Friedman and knowing from experience his ability to distort the truth, I am sending under separate cover this copy of letter sent through the superintendent, with, the superintendent's letters previously mentioned; also a copy of the Arrow of Septem- ber 5, 1913, the sample outlines mentioned, and copies of letters written by Mr. Stauffef and Mrs. Lovewell, as well as the program and Bongs in question. Very respectfully, John Whitwell, Principal Teacher. Indian School, Carlisle, Pa., October 15, 1913. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D, C. Dear Sir: Please rind inclosed a letter from Supt. Friedman which (unless the regulations have been changed) seems to me a new procedure in such cases. How- ever, as there is nothing in the letter which can not be explained, and as delay would be detrimental to the best interest of all concerned, I proceed with the explanations: I. I am charged with having made an unwarranted, abusive, and insubordinate attack on the superintendent on the afternoon of October 7 in his office, and calling him "a dirty skunk." Answer. I respectfully submit the inclosed letter addressed to the supervisor of Indian schools, as evidence in this matter, also the additional evidence bearing on the matter which is here given in my answers to the other charges. II. "It is also charged that your work has not been satisfactory or up to the standard." Answer. The charge should have stated which one of these is meant, or if all are meant, viz: (a) My regular work as principal teacher. (6) My work in the financial clerk's office, of keeping the students' record cards. (c) The different details to which I have been assigned. Because of their far-reaching effect I will take up the second and third of these first: (6) When Supt. Friedman instructed me in July, 1911, to do the work in the finan- cial clerk's office, formerly done by a separate clerk, viz, that of keeping the students' record cards and attendance reports— I protested but said I could do this if allowed to have the cards and books at my office. After consultation with the clerks the superintendent decided the cards and attendance book could not be moved from the 1078 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. financial clerk's office. This meant that from that time on at least one-half of my time had to be spent in the financial clerk's office away from my regular work. The affidavit which I gave to Supervisor Peairs regarding attendance reports at Carlisle, and which I showed to Supt. Friedman, contained another protest as to the trying circumstances under which I was making these reports and keeping these record cards. On July 28, 1913, I received instructions to "transfer at once the attendance books and all other papers needed in connection with the work to my office" and keep the attendance reports there. I went to the superintendent's office and showed him that the Carlisle system of keeping attendance reports made the cards, attendance book, and reports inseparable, but suggested, since he had consented for me to take the book, we might get another Bet of cards, make duplicates. The superintendent agreed to this, and as soon as the cards reached me I called in two teachers and the librarian and we had them ready for use in a few days. Since that time, which was at the beginning of the school year, I have kept the attend- ance records in my own office, consequently I have been able to again attend to my school duties as I used to do before the change was made in July, 1911. I wish to emphasize the fact that previous to July, 1911, the principal teacher had had nothing whatever to do with the keeping of the record cards, the attendance book, or the attendance reports. It was t' e circumstances under which I had to do this work rather than the work itself that I objected to — the reasons are self-evident. (c) As to the different details to which I have been assigned I wish to refer to the following: 1. Before my leave had expired in 1909, the superintendent called me by telegram from Jackson, Mich., to take the place of the quartermaster, when an employee on the grounds fully acquainted with the work was available and willing to fill the posi- tion. ' ' I had had no experience whatever in the position, but was required to fill it even after school started. I simply did all that any one could have done under the cir- cumstances. In September, 1912, just as I was getting my school into shape and without any previous intimation, I was given written order to be ready within a few hours to pro- ceed to Pine Ridge and Rosebud Reservations to escort pupils to this school, a work which any one of the 60 employees here could have done, as the pupils were gotten ready by the day-school inspectors on each reservation. On July 28 this year (see superintendent's letter of this date) I was detailed to large boys' quarters. I had just given up part of my educational leave to get back to my school work. (a) But more than this; my regular work at the school building has been seriously lindered. 1. By abolishing teachers' positions and reducing salaries; e. g., that of senior teacher, salary, $900; assistant normal teacher's position abolished; teacher of rOom JSo. 3, position abolished; agricultural teacher, salary first reduced, afterward position abolished. 2 . By pushing the teaching of telegraph and art at the expense of the school. One of the regular school rooms had to be given up for telegraphy when another room was available. This meant an average class of 50 pupils were forced to use a less desirable room. The room previously used for supplies and as the office of head janitor was fitted up lor art without any regard for the supplies or the janitor work. Without even notifying me teachers have been detailed to all kinds of work (except School work) during t 1 e summer months, and sometimes during the school session, ■and even after I had made arrangements for having some necessary school work done before teachers went on their vacation the arrangements were ignored, the teachers' regular requests for leave were ignored and teachers were ordered to take their leave at once. The instruction in gardening has been changed so that practically all it amounts to now is detailing boys and sometimes girls to do the work — the gardener makes a fine showing, but the instruction part has to be neglected. The Arrow of September -5 says the garden has afforded excellect instruction. This is misleading to say the least. No doubt it is a good object lesson, but the instruction has been very meager. The musical director who has charge of teaching vocal music classes in school has received more recognition, both financially and otherwise, than any other teacher; yet despite the fact that he makes an excellent showing at commencement and other public occasions, his work with the classes is hardly worth mentioning, which can not be otherwise in the face of his many other duties; and what means more, some of CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1079 his work is direct opposition to the kind of training which we all agree is of more value than any other— moral training. I inclose copy of a letter written me by Mr. Stauffer regarding Mrs. Lovewell, and another copy of Mrs. Lovewell's reply to this letter, together with a copy of the program then under question; also a copy of a song given at a literary meeting. When the superintendent has left the grounds, even if it was for weeks, he has . neglected to give the required official notice as to who was in charge. Being the next in order I did the best I could under the circumstances until I saw plainly he did not want me to take charge. My best efforts and the work of many others is devoted for three months during each year toward making what in many ways is a false snowing for commencement. III. "That you have been derelict in your duty." As some of the alleged dere- lictions follow I will simply say here that I have been true to my highest convic- tions, and when a question of duty presented itself I have, as already shown, tried to stand for right whatever the cost. Judging from what I have already said it would seem I would have been derelict in my duty if I had stood for all that Supt. Friedman has stood for. Then again, the unnatural details forced on me by the superintendent plainly pre- vented my doing my full duty to my own department. IV. "That you have not visited the classrooms, as you should, and given instruc- tion to the students or properly observed the work of the teachers." Visiting class- rooms: Up to the time of my detail to the financial clerk's office in July, 1911, I found time to visit the classrooms as often as was necessary. Since then and until recently I have found it extremely difficult to find time even to visit the rooms of new teachers. The latter I have made a point to visit whenever possible. The superintendent evidently forgets or does not know that each teacher prepares a daily program (I inclose samples); that these are sent to the principal teachers' office, and that the work as a whole can be much better supervised in this way than by trying to visit 17 different rooms with the same object in view. As to instructing the pupils, the work of the principal teacher here has never included teaching in the classrooms. His work is to organize and observe the work of other teachers, which I have care- fully done. There never was a time when I could not give a detailed report as to the efficiency of any one of my teachers, The fact that the superintendent did not call for such reports did not prevent my being in a position to give them at any time. Going back to the charge of not visiting school rooms, I have not done as the superin- tendent did last night — after sending me the charges at noon he personally inter- viewed the teachers as to their correctness on this point. V. "Until I undertook to reorganize your work during the past summer it was con- stantly growing worse instead of better." During thiff time I have but once received oral instructions from Supt. Friedman. He was passing by my office and I asked him what was to be done with the Bible - classes. After saying he intended to have a. secretary to look after them as usual, he said, "Just saw wood." As to written instructions, I am forwarding under separate cover all the written instructions I have received from the superintendent during this period. The super- intendent has a copy of them. To the man who knows they speak for themselves If this claim to organization of my work is based on what Mr. Stauffer did, as would appear from an inspired article in the Arrow with the heading "School building made ready," I wish to repeat what I have already said in regard to Mr. Stauffer's work in my office, viz, that he did more harm than good. I might have added that during my absence of six weeks he did not even start the work which the superintendent had ordered done before I left, viz, oiling the floors, although the quartermaster says he told him the oil was ready. . , From another inspired article in the Arrow of the same date I judge Mr. btauner s work on the calendar may be meant. I wish to state that the calendar manuscript practically completed on lines sug- gested and approved at faculty meetings at which I was present, was left by me before going on vacation in the hands of the printer. In fact, when the superintendent told me to leave my keys with Mr. Stauffer I suggested leaving the calendar too, but he said no, to hand it to Mr. Brown, the printer, so that the latter could begin work on it, -and I did so True, several changes were made, but aside from that of study fiour which at faculty meeting I had objected to, purely on the grounds that I understood the Indian Office was not in favor of it; aside from this, I repeat, the changes were immaterial so far as construction and organization are concerned. It remains to be seen whether or not the change in religious services will prove benefidal - John Whitwell. 1080 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. I see what purports to be a copy of a letter from the superintendent to you, dated July 23, 1913, relative to personal oversight of instruction in the class rooms. Mr. Whitwell. This was written in July, while I was on my vaca- tion, and I had not then removed the attendance records to my office, so that the overseeing of the classrooms had been somewhat neg- lected, owing to my being at the other office. (The letter referred to is as follows:) July 23, 1913. Mr. Whitwell: One of the paramount duties devolving on the principal teacher in connection with his work is the personal oversight of instruction in the classrooms. It is therefore directed that as much time as possible be spent by the principal teacher each day in visiting classrooms, so as to definitely ascertain the progress which is made by the students, and listening to the recitation work conducted by the teacher with a view to raising the standard of the academic department. From time to time the principal teacher himself should take a class and quiz the students with a view to ascertaining the practical results which have attended the instruction by the various teachers. Important matters needing adjustment will thus come before the personal attention of the principal teacher which can be discussed and properly corrected either in a personal interview with the teacher or at one of the teachers' meetings. The matter is one of the greatest importance, and as very little or no visiting of this kind has been done in the past, the matter should have definite attention. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. The Chairman. July 28, 1913, you were detailed to the large boys' quarters ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. (The letter referred to is as follows :) July 28, 1913. Mr. Whitwell: You are hereby detailed for duty at the large boys' quarters, beginning at once. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. The Chairman. What was the import of that ? Mr. Whitwell. I had been attending chautauqua, but the teacher who had been keeping the attendance records was away and I knew what it meant, and I gave up a part of my institute leave to hurry back to my own work, and I had not been back but a day or so when he detailed me to the large boys' quarters, although there were very few boys here at that time and no special need for it. The Chairman. There also appears to be a letter of January 28, 1913, from Supt. Friedman to you. What is the significance of that communication to you ? Mr. Whitwell. This is in regard to the change of keeping the attendance records at my own office instead of in the financial clerk's office, and he seems to be specially desirous of having them kept accurately, and I challenged him to show where they had ever been kept, since I took them, any other way than accurately. Of course, it is all a matter of evidence as to the way they were kept before I took hold of it. I thought I had the answers to these with me. The Chairman. Were you charged with the condition of the class- rooms ? Mr. Whitwell. You mean in regard to janitor work, etc. ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; that is part of my duties. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1081 The Chairman. I see a letter of August 26, 1913, in which the super- intendent criticises you for the condition of the rooms. Mr. Whitwell. There is already on record a reply to this, showing that the only windows that were not cleaned at that time were two in the back part of the chapel, and as the teacher said he was doing the work, there was no need of doing them then; we could do them when we had boys to help us. And not only that, there was more important work for the teacher to do than cleaning such windows. We ought to have been getting our school work in shape. The other windows were just in the shape you would expect to find them after the summer's vacation. They had all been cleaned before the pupils had been dismissed. There is a reply here to this about the windows. It is, of course, written much better than I could remember now. (The letter and statement referred to are as follows:) August 26, 1913. Mr. Whitwell: I have gone through the rooms of the school building carefully and, while the oiling of the floors and the general cleaning is progressing satisfactorily, it will be necessary to spend quite a bit of time and labor in cleaning the windows. The windows gen- erally were dirty, a condition which is not only unsanitary but obstructs the proper light and sunshine which should enter the schoolrooms during class recitations. Very respectfully, Moses Friedman, Superintendent. [Notes on Superintendent's letter of Aug. 26, 1913.] The front windows of the chapel had been washed a few days before this inspection was made. The windows the superintendent saw the boys washing before he wrote this letter, were put in new a few days before. They were gummy and needed wash- ing; the other windows of school rooms were in the condition anyone would expect to find them in, after the dusts of the summer vacation. The windows in the storeroom at the rear of the chapel did need cleaning, but it was not necessary that they be done then, when there were not pupils that could do this, only teachers who could have had this time for better use. The Chairman. That was not a letter to the superintendent. This is a correct statement ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; that is in regard to the actual conditions. And I would like to say that there are answers put in the evidence. - The Chairman. Were they furnished to the superintendent ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes; they were furnished as a reply to his charges, so that they are a matter of record in Washington. The Chairman. Do you know why Miss Gaither was transferred from here % Mr. Whitwell. She and Mr. Friedman did not get along very well together. I know no other reason why she should have been transferred. I considered her a very capable matron. The Chairman. At the time of her leaving here did you know any- thing about a controversy arising from the manner of keeping the accounts % Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; I never heard that. The Chairman. Do you know Julia Hardin ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who is she % .,.,,. , Mr. Whitwell. She is one of our pupils m the business department. The Chairman. Did you see her during June, 1913 ? On an oc- casion when she was being whipped ? 1082 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. State the circumstances under which you saw her, and what her condition was. Mr. Whitwell. Shall I read this ? The Chairman. I have no objection. Mr. Whitwell. Of course, I would like to say that this was given from my memory, but I know that the vital parts are correct. There may be a word or two that is a little different. The Chairman. Just read it. Mr. Whitwell (reading) : I found the girl sitting on the floor sobbing and crying. Mr. Stauffer was standing near, very much excited. So was Miss Ridenour. I had learned on the way over, from Mrs. La Flesche, something of the trouble. I walked up to Julia and said some- thing like this: "Julia, you know I wouldn't advise you to do anything against your best interests if I knew it. Now, you have got yourself into this trouble and it is up to you to get yourself out of it. I couldn't tell you what is right or wrong, any better than what you yourself now know it, and I am not going to waste time talking to you, but I advise you to do as you are told, whatever that is." I turned to the matron and asked what they wanted her to do. The matron said she would have to go to the lock-up. I said, "Julia, will you go to the lock-up?" She said, "I will go for you, Mr. Whitwell." I knew the girl meant what she said. I turned to the matron and said she was ready to go, but the matron did not seem to realize it. I said again that she was ready to go and told Julia to rise and go with her. She went and that ended my connection with the case. The Chairman. Did you see Mr. Stauffer that evening? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; he came to the house. The Chairman. What conversation occurred between you? Mr. Whitwell. He evidently came to explain his connection with the case. He said that the girl has been very bad, or something like that, and I said to him, ' ' Well, I am afraid you have made a mistake to use corporal punishment. You ought to have had permission of the superintendent." He said that he had gone to Mr. Friedman after he found out the girl would not do what they wanted, and told Mr. Friedman that there was only one way to do it and that was to spank her, and Mr. Friedman said, "Now, don't talk to me about spanking. If you are going to spank, all right; but don't bring me into it." I had very little to say about the case, and could not approve of it. He evidently was worried about it, and I could not say anything that would make him feel any better. He added, however, that the girl was ready to go when he came over, and I told him that so far as that was concerned, I did not claim any credit. The Chairman. Did you take hold of the girl ? Mr. Whitwell. I do not remember even touching her. The Chairman. Did you pull her up from the floor ? Mr. Whitwell. I do not remember that I pulled her up. If I did it was simply to help her. From what Mrs. La Flesche told me, I realized it was a case that the more they were punishing the girl the more stubborn she was becoming. I would not use corporal punishment under any circumstances. The Chairman. Did you threaten to punish her? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. The Chairman. Did you tell her that she had not had enough punishment ? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1083 The Chairman. Did you order her put in the detention room over night? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. I did not know anything about whether they had a detention room. I did not know the next move. The girl went home. I was ignorant of the whole situation. The Chairman. Do you know what she was punished for? Mr. Whitwell. I know now, yes. The Chairman. What was it ? Mr. Whitwell. For not going to the country after she had prom- ised to go. The Chairman. Did you see the board with which she is said to have been whipped? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. That was all over when I went there. The Chairman. Do you know of pupils of the school being con- fined in the county jail, Mr. Whitwell? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many have jou known of in the last year or two ? Mr. Whitwell. Something like seven or eight. The Chairman. For what offenses, if you know ? Mr. Whitwell. One while I was helping over at the large boys' quarters — I assisted them. In fact, under Mr. Friedman's orders, I took a boy down and had him arrested. I went down and really acted the part of the complainant. The Chairman. "What did you charge him with ? Mr. Whitwell. Stealing pies out of the bakery. They make pies every Saturday afternoon. The Chairman. How long was he confined for that ? Mr. Whitwell. I think for 30 days, as near as I can remember. The Chairman. Did you charge him with petty larceny or grand larceny ? Mr. Whitwell. I think it was petty larceny. The Chairman. Did you think that punishment as commensu- rate with the degree of the offense — to take a schoolboy charged with stealing something to eat ? It looks to me almost like the case of Jean Valjean again. A case where you knew, and it was generally known, that the pupils were not getting enough to eat, to take one of the boys down and put him in jail for 30 days. Mr. Whitwell. Of course, they threw the plates away, but that was all secondary. The Chairman. How much pie did they steal ? Mr. Whitwell. Oh, quite a number of them. The Chairman. Were there a number of boys in it ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes; they took the pies down near the lake here and told the boys where the pies were. I think the poor girls had to go without the next day. ' Representative Carter. You have been to a boarding school, haven't you ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; I have been in all kinds. Eepresentative Carter. Did you ever take part in any such transaction as that? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. Representative Carter. Never stole a pie ? 1084 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, those offenses are quite com- mon in all boarding schools ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Especially where the food is inadequate or un- wholesome and general complaints exist. Don't you think that a case, of that sort could have been handled and should have been handled with the discipline that prevails in the school rather than appeal to the criminal authorities of the county? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; there were those two things I thought pf at the time; that it showed our weak discipline in the first place, in not being able to handle a thing like that ourselves; and again, that our grounds were not being policed right. The judge himself asked why the boys could do that. Representative Carter. Do you have a night watch? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, but only an Indian boy. For all I know, he might have helped. Representative Carter. You were acting under orders, I believe, of the superintendent? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; the superintendent gave me orders. Representative Carter. Were the orders written, or merely verbal ? Mr. Whitwell. I do not remember. Representative Carter. Will you look and see if you have any written instructions concerning that, and bring them back? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Why was this work put on you? Mr. Whitwell. You will notice that at that time I was detailed to the large boys' quarters. Representative Carter. Was the counsel or advice of the dis- ciplinarian sought or obtained in the matter — what was that boy's name ? Mr. Whitwell. I could find out. Representative Carter. Did you visit the boy while he was in jail? Mr. Whitwell. No. Representative Carter. Did Superintendent Friedman? Mr. Whitwell. I do not think he did; I do not think anyone did. I know I told the prosecuting attorney — he said there was a nominal fine, as I understood. There had to be a nominal fine, and I told him that probably the boy would not have it, and if he would let me know I would pay it. Then I inquired when the time was out of the disci- plinarian, and he said they were going to let the boy go home. Representative Carter. So they kept him in jail 30 days andthen fired him for stealing pies ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. What do they do with the drunks and the boys who enter the rooms of the girls and debauch them ? Mr. Whitwell. I have heard mentioned the case of Gus Welch. Representative Carter. He is a football man? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Do you know about the four boys who during the last year entered the girls' building and met some girls in a vacant room, and stayed there a long time ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. OAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1085 Representative Carter. What was done with those boys? Mr. Whitwell. They were put in the guardhouse. Representative Carter. They were not taken to the county jail and confined for debauching those girls? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. Those boys evidently had not been pun- ished as they ought to have been. Just day before yesterday one of them met a girl over at the school building — one of the same boys met one of the same girls in the back part of the chapel. There was nothing done bad that we know of, but it was because we caught on to it in time. The Chairman. Of course, the inherent weaknesses and character- istics of human nature make it impossible to prevent those things from occurring whenever the opportunity can be obtained and the disposition exists between boys and girls, but it does seem to me like it discloses an utter lack of sense or due proportion to confine a boy in the county jail for 30 days and expel him for stealing a few pies, and then to minimize an offense of the character mentioned in connec- tion with those boys who met the girls improperly and debauched them. Will you give me the name of that boy that was sent to jail for stealing pies? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I want to ask Mr. Friedman something about that. Does he admit giving you those orders ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, I think he will, because they have had trouble about boys stealing pies. And, as I say, they do not have anyone to watch the place. The Chairman. Do you know anything about an alleged pig roast by the football boys in which they are said to have taken two pigs and roasted them ? Mr. Whitwell. It is common report. The Chairman. What was done with them for that vicious offense ? Mr. Whitwell. Nothing, so far as I have known. The Chairman. They were not sent to the county jail? Mr. Whitwell. No. Representative Stephens. Do you know of cases of drunkenness in the school by the boys, and disorderly conduct by boys, who were not sent home or expelled ? Mr. Whitwell. On, yes; quite a number. If we sent them all home that have gotten drunk I am afraid we would not have many left. Representative Stephens. As I understand you, some boys would be sent home and others kept here ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Then that constituted a gross viola- tion of the rights of certain boys, did it not? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; and that was what led to the feeling ot the student body toward the superintendent. They see the injus- tice being done. For instance, there have been very few drunks sent home. „ Representatiye Stephens. It showed partiality m the extreme t Mr. Whitwell. Yes; that is how they look on it. Representative Stephens. I believe you stated that the agricul- tural and harness departments had been abolished. Have any other departments been abolished? 1086 CAELISLE INDIAN" SCHOOL. Mr. Whitwell. The Indian art department. Eepresentative Stephens. What else? Mr. Whitwell. Telegraphy, harness-making, photography Eepresentative Stephens. What else? Mr. Whitwell. That is all, I think. Mechanical drawing has been taken up again. Representative Stephens. It was abolished a while ? Mr. Whitwell. It was abolished a while, and the mechanical drawing teacher put on the farm. Representative Stephens. What did they do with the teachers that were teaching all these special branches ? Mr. Whitwell. There was no regular employees for photography; the physical culture teacher used to do that. The agricultural department was abolished entirely, and I don't know where the money went. The rooms were turned into the music department. Representative Stephens. A conservatory instead of an agricul- tural department? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. What is in that conservatory? Mr. Whitwell. Pianos and musical instruments and so on. The part where we raise plants, however, the gardener uses that to raise plants for his garden. There is now practically no instruction given, and the agricultural work seems to De almost ignored, so much so that it has seemed they treat it almost as a punishemnt to go to the farm. We had a potato farm, and the boys would not go there. We had a fine lot of chicken houses built and and an expert from town come here to supervise it, and they did not get the eggs, and they tore up the chicken houses. Representative Stephens. Have they abolished the raising of chickens ? Mr. Whitwell. Abolished it entirely. Of course, the boys prob- ably did get the eggs. The Chairman. Do you know about the case of ■ and Paul Jones ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. That is the case that the boy and girl were sent to jail for 60 days. The Chairman. What for ? Mr. Whitwell. I understand, for immoral relations, but I do not know the details. The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with that case ? Mr. Whitwell. Nothing whatever. The Chairman. Did you ever examine the record of the case ? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; I never had an opportunity. The Chairman. Do you know upon whose complaint they were sent to jail? Mr. Whitwell. I think it was the disciplinarian. Of course, he does all that by the superintendent. Representative Carter. How many industrial departments have you now? You know, don't you? Suppose you just put them in the record there. Mr. Whitwell. There are about 15 here that we have yet. Representative Carter. Name them for the record. Mr. Whitwell. Baking, blacksmithing, masonry — that includes bricklaying, of course — -carpentry, wagon making, painting, plumbing, CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1087 and steamfitting, printing, shoemaking, tailoring, tinsmithing, laun- dering for the girls, sewing, and the agricultural work, which is hardly worth mentioning. There is no instruction. Representative Carter. How many teachers have you in those different departments ? Mr. Whitwell. One for each. Representative Carter. How many children have you in each of those ? Mr. Whitwell. It varies so much it would be very hard to tell. The engineer will have something like 10 boys in the morning and 10 in the afternoon. He has one of the largest details. Then the car- penter, he has a large detail on account of the large amount of repair work to be done, but the others will probably average four or five boys each. Representative Stephens. Is there any one looking after stock- raising ? Mr. Whitwell. No. Representative Carter. Then there would not be over 75 or 100 boys m the industrial work ? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. I have a record that I compiled. We are using a new blank now to give their grade and the trade they work. We have them all itemized. Representative Carter. In your opinion, then, the school is not very much of an industrial school ? Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. The boys change too much from pne place to another, too. Representative Carter. The difficulty is they do not keep the boy in one department long enough to learn a trade? Mr. Whitwell. That is it. They won't make him stick to it. Representative Carter. Could they do it under the present discipline ? Mr. Whitwell. I doubt it very much. Representative Carter. What can you tell us about the general health of the students? Mr. Whitwell. As a rule that does not come under my observa- tion, any more as we happen to see it in the schoolrooms. Representative Carter. But you have an opportunity to observe it, of course ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes. We have quite frequently sent boys and girls out of the schoolroom to the hospital for treatment — adenoids and such cases as that. They are sometimes run down. Representative Carter. Are there any children in the school now afflicted with tuberculosis? Mr. Whitwell. I could not say positively. I know there was a little while ago. Their plan is to send them home. Representative Carter. They send them home as soon as they get it? , ,, Mr. Whitwell. Yes, especially — perhaps not as soon as tney get it, but as soon as they show the case is developed. Representative Carter. What do they do with cases of trachoma « Mr Whitwell. I have seen very little done. Of course, it may be done. I know when Dr. White came back the second time he complained very much. 1088 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Representative Cartek. Is there very much trachoma in this school ? Mr. Whitwell. I think there is. Representative Carter. Are the children who have trachoma segregated from the others ? Mr. Whitwell. Not that I know of. Representative Carter. What system of towels have they, and bath rooms ? Mr. Whitwell. I do not know of any special system, any more than to give each boy a towel once a week. Representative Carter. Only once a week? Mr. Whitwell. Once a week, so I understand. Representative Carter. Is he required to keep that towel separate, or can any other boy use it ? Mr. Whitwell. No; he does not pay much attention to it. Representative Carter. So there is a wide opportunity for the spread of that disease. Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. And nothing being done to check it ? Mr. Whitwell. No. Representative Carter. In the way of sanitation I mean. Mr. Whitwell. Yes. One boy in particular, George Marks, is in the business department, and I ought to have seen it sooner. I noticed he had a squint, so I sent him over to be examined, and he had a very severe case of trachoma and had been in school right along. Representative Carter. What was his name ? Mr. Whitwell. George Marks. Representative Carter. Is he still here ? Mr. Whitwell. Yes, he is still here. Of course, he is getting treatment now. Representative Carter. Is he segregated? Mr. Whitwell. I do not think he is ; I think he goes with the other boys. He is in the business department. Representative Carter. Do you know of any others ? Mr. Whitwell. No; I do not know of any, but there may be a con- siderable number that I do not know of. Of course, that does not come under my special department. (The following correspondence was submitted by Mr. Whitwell and ordered to be printed in the record:) Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Principal Teachers Office, Carlisle, Pa., March 27, WIS. H. B. Peairs, Supervisor in charge of Indian Schools. Dear Sir: These are the facts regarding my experience with attendance records at Carlisle. When I reported for duty as principal teacher at Carlisle, July 1, 1907, I found, contrary to the usual custom in other schools, that the principal teacher had nothing whatever to do with the attendance reports. It was some time in 1910 before I even saw one of these reports. Consequently I waa naturally somewhat surprised when without any explanation one of the quarterly re- ports for this year (1910) was sent to me for my signature, I at the time knowing abso- lutely nothing as to how it was made up. I signed this report, at the same time resolving in the face of past experience to in- vestigate a little before I signed another, if called upon to do so. Consequently when the report for the following quarter was sent to me for my signature and I found some CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1089 names on the roll that should have been dropped, I immediately wrote a note to Mr Miller who was then in charge of the report, asking if there was any luthoritv for carrv mg such pupils on the roll. Not receiving a reply I mentioned th P m»Sr tf«^7" intendent Friedman explaining why I dil notVgk thTreport and reS i SS of ft* SmftT^l* Ha l ke11 ^ amnte When Su Pervisor Conser found™ few mmeT on the roll that should have been dropped. Mr. Friedman answered, " It is noT necessary for you to sign them, some one else will " u necessary . When Supervisor Pierce informed me of the condition of the attendance reports I simply related in substance what I have written, to show him that I was It in a position to give him any definite information ou^rsame^rT^vl^lqn 118 rT* 8 ™Y hen * Was aasi S ned to the work ° f ^king reports sfnTe XSe ' ^ * *™ ""**• °* m * e ™ Bed the ™ ki ^ and Bi S ned a » Very respectfully, John Whitwell, Principal Teacher. Department of the Interior, United States Indian Industrial School Mr. John Whitwell, Ph ° miX ' A ™-> March 19 > 191S - Principal Teacher, Indian School, Carlisle, Pa. My Dear Mr Whitwell: You will recall, no doubt, the- visit that Supervisor Pierce and I made to Carlisle in February, 1911. I believe it was when we examined toe attendance records and found a discrepancy between the enrollment as shown by the quarterly attendance reports and the actual attendance, plus the actual number of pupils outing. I have not the report we made, but as nearly as I can recall there were nearly 200 more names on the roll who were shown as having been in attendance during the full quarter just previous than were actually present and outing. A careful examination proved that many pupils who had been at their homes for periods varying from one or two months up to several years were still carried on the roll and were given full time in the attendance reports. This was brought to your attention, and you stated to Supervisor Pierce and myself that because of that fact you had refused to sign the quarterly attendance reports, and that Superintendent Friedman told you that you did not have to do it for he could get some one else to sign them; that, thereafter, the attendance reports had been made in the superintendent's office and had been signed by one of the clerks, Mr. Miller, I believe it was. The discrepancy in the attendance reports was reported by Supervisor Pierce in his report to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and I was informed that pupils who were at their homes were dropped. No further action was taken by the office in the matter except to make a general ruling applying to the service at large, with refer- ence to dropping pupils from the rolls at the end of not to exceed 30 days after leaving the school. I always felt that the action taken by Superintendent Friedman in taking the attendance reports out of your hands because you would not sign reports which were padded and having some other employee sign them was entirely wrong, in fact, that it was an intentional and deliberate falsification of the school records and accounts. Since Superintendent Friedman has become a candidate for promotion to the office of Commissioner of Indian Affairs, I have made a statement that Superintendent Friedman wilfully falsified his records and accounts, the particular instance being the one herein mentioned, the statement which I made found its way to the Secretary of the Interior and finally to the Office of Indian Affairs, and I am now asked to prove the statement. I will do so by giving the substance of Supervisor Pierce's report upon the attendance at Carlisle at the time he visited the school. That I may prove that part of the statement in which I say that padding of the accounts was wilfull, intentional and deliberate, I want your sworn statement with reference to Superintendent Friedman's taking the making of the attendance reports out of your hands because you were unwilling to sign them when they did not portray the facts, but showed a padded attendance. As nearly as I can remember, I have given you the substance of your conversation with Supervisor Pierce and me about this matter. I dislike to bring you into this fight, but it is absolutely necessary to do so. I hope, Mr. Whitwell, that you will realize the real necessity of giving me a very carefully worded and full sworn statement covering the incident, because if you fail to do so, 35601— pt 11—14 9 1090 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. it will be impossible for me to substantiate the charge made. You have the key to the situation. The records I can easily prove and that the attendance reports were padded intentionally must be proved by securing your sworn statement. I will get a sworn statement from Supervisor Pierce verifying my statement that you made such a statement to both of us, but a statement from you will make the case positive. You need not have any fear of the result— you will be protected. Please prepare the statement and mail four copies of it to me at Lawrence, Kans.,care of Haskell Institute, at the earliest possible date. I hope you will consider this matter entirely confidential at the present time. Sincerely yours, H. B. Peaihs, Supervisor in charge of Indian Schools. (N. B. Signed by himself.) (N. B. Written in lead pencil: Lawrence, Kans.) Office of Principal Teacher, Carlisle Indian School, October 8, 191$. Supervisor H. B. Peairs, Indian Office, Washington, D. C. Bear Sir: Due to either malice or ignorance on the part of Supervisor Friedman, I am greatly hindered, in successfully carrying on my work as principal teacher at the Carlisle Indian School, and I ask you as one fully acquainted with the facts concerning my work before coming here, the circumstances attending my appointment here, the commissioner's promise made at that time to consider favorably any request I might make for transfer, also your further acquaintance with some of the difficulties I have encountered here, to lay before the Commissioner of Indian Affairs at the earliest possible date the following as a part of the evidence which will go to prove the correct- ness of the foregoing charges and conclusions. 1. My treatment when I reported as to conditions at athletic quarters during the quiet hour. I believe Supervisor Peairs and Mr. Carter can explain this. 2. The refusal of the superintendent to support me in refusing to approve of requests for boys to visit girls at girl's quarters. 3. The ignoring of my suggestion made at a meeting of all employees, that we follow the old rule of the school and keep boys and girls apart as much as possible. 4. Ignoring my repeated assertion in the face of immorality that the highest test of the school is its result in moral training. 5. My refusal to approve of a certain boy visiting a certain girl at the hospital at the request of Miss Guest. Superintendent Friedman suggested over the phone that I had better approve of it so that he would not have to go over my head. I still refused.. 6. My refusal to indorse the moral side of Maj. Mercer's administration. I believe this to have antagonized those who are now acting as the superintendent's tools more than it has the superintendent himself. The effect, however, is the same. 7. My approval of the Y. W. C. A. secretary's plan to provide amusement during dancing hours for those who did not wish to dance. The superintendent called me into his office and in the presence of the secretary said that while it might be a good thing in some ways it was probably impracticable and wanted my opinion. He seemed disappointed when I gave it to" him. 8. My open criticism of the veracity of a letter which the superintendent proposed to send to Miss Richards regarding the writing of a letter to the Indian Office by John Jackson, a pupil. In the letter which he proposed to send and which he laid before the faculty for indorsement, he did not state the facts as they were and I told him so. 9. My attitude of withholding indorsement or approval of matters concerning the school which have been exaggerated or misrepresented. There has been an unlimited amount of such matter. Past issues of the Red Man and Arrow will prove this. 10. My challenging the assertion on the part of the superintendent at a faculty meeting to award diplomas— that there was no difference between a pupil teacher and a teacher. He said the difference was one of tweedledee or tweedledum. Such assertions naturally discount the excellent work done in the training of pupil teachers in our normal department, a work which has always been a strong factor in academic work. As in other cases the assertion was clearly due to malice or ignorance. 11. My affidavit regarding attendance reports at Carlisle given Supervisor H. B. Peairs. I wish to say this as an official duty solely. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1091 .tnJfill W^J" gl Q- fals t t ev ^ denCe as t0 - ? he keeping of the attendance reports at Haskell Institute Since this time my position here has been well nigh unbearable and only the conviction that I had stood firm for the right has kept me from resigning _ 13. During the summer months the interests of the academic department havf been ignored so far as the detailing of teachers is concerned except oiling floors and cleaning windows, other than this the work done by the director of music in the principal teacher s office was more harmful than otherwise; books were placed on shelves so as to look nice instead of being arranged ready for use as they formerly were by teachers especially detailed for that purpose. 14. My open criticism of the small amount of agricultural training given the students and the undue prominence given to art and telegraphy, both of which have proved failures at the expense of the academic department, while as the same time the teachers of these and the music department have received special mention and teachers who were faithfully performing their duties almost ignored. 15. Two weeks ago I commenced to follow that part of the commissioner's letter of instructions in citizenship" which suggests using the following topics at opening exercises: Obedience, cleanliness, and neatness," etc. Last week I received a three-page letter of instructions regarding chapel exercises, which provided for noth- ing but what had already been done, except as regards the leading of the singing, but which did order the elimination of recitations by pupils from the higher grades, such recitations being specially selected for the moral lesson they contained. As regards the music, the director of music is to lead in person. This he did on Monday last while the superintendent was present. He selected for singing one of the hymns for- bidden by the Indian Office regulations. Before reading the Scripture lesson I felt it my duty to call attention to this error, but this did not prevent the superintendent lauding the music and ignoring the rest of the program, even if it did provide for carrying out the commissioner's instructions. The same letter contained such ridiculous instructions regarding dismissal that I felt compelled to go to the superintendent's office before the next chapel exercises (after spending considerable time trying to find a way out of the dilemma) and asked to have them withdrawn, which was granted and the dismissal was conducted in the usual manner. The fallowing quotation was used at the chapel exercise: "Training in good habits of thinking and acting is of more value to pupils than the learning of all that the best text books contain concerning the whole circle of the sciences." 16. I wish to state here that while the preceding incident and many similar ones have made my position here a very trying one I still had hopes that I would be able to do just what I have always done in the past and pull through without having to defend myself, but the following incident which happened yesterday, made it impos- sible for me to longer remain silent and at the same time preserve a spark of manhood or honor. Last year, at my suggestion a series of debates was carried on between our literary societies and Carlisle High School students. Supt. Wagner of the city schools, Supt. Friedman, and myself met at Supt. Friedman's residence and arranged the details. The principal teacher at Carlisle has always had supervision of the literary societies and weekly reports are sent to him by the official visitors. The debates passed off very satisfactorily and the results justified our planning for another series of debates. I found Supt. Wagner willing and glad to help out. Sometime in the forenoon of yesterday word was sent me from Mr. Meyer's office that Supt. Wagner wanted to speak with me over the phone. I found he wanted to speak about the debate, which is to be given on November 8. He said Mr. Stauffer had interviewed him, but he wanted to know when to come out to see Supt. Friedman and myself so as to arrange details of debate. I told him to hold the phone and I would try to arrange the date. I asked Supt. Friedman what date would be suitable. He replied he had instructed advisory members to see Supt. Wagner and make all arrangements. As I was then planning for another debate which is to take place Saturday evening 'between members of our different societies, I asked if he had sent out instructions in regard to this too; he said the head of the department would do that. I asked him why the head of the department should not do as had been done before and attend to the other debate, or at least be notified that his services were not needed ; he made no direct reply. I told him I could not go on with my work under such conditions, that I wanted to charge him right there with malice or ignorance so far as his attitude to- ward my work is concerned, and I admit I said some things I should not have said, among them that he was a dirty skunk. He called in Miss Rice, the stenographer, and asked me to repeat what I had said. I repeated the charge m these words; turn- ing to Miss Rice, and pointing my finger at. Superintendent Friedman, I said, You 1092 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. can say that I charge this man with being guilty of either malice or ignorance so far as my work is concerned." „ Superintendent Friedman replied that he would prove I was incompetent. I answered I was fully aware that he had been distorting the truth and sending me. letters with some such purpose in view, that I had kept the letters and would prove, when the proper time came, that it was either malice or ignorance that prompted the writing of them. I came back to my office and took charge of a meeting of the advisory members and presidents of the literary societies which are to debate on Saturday evening, outlined a program and sent it to Superintendent Friedman for approval. I have not heard from it and I do not know what to do for the best. Very respectfully, John Whitwell. United States Indian School, Carlisle, Pa., October 14, 1913. Mr. John Whitwell, Principal Teacher: In a letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs you are charged with making an unwarranted, abusive, and insubordinate attack on the superintendent on the after- noon of October 7th in his office and calling him "a dirty skunk." It is also charged that your work has not been satisfactory or up to the standard, that you have been derelict in your duty, that you have not visited the class rooms as you should and given instruction to the students, or properly observed the work of the teachers; and that until I undertook to reorganize your work during the past summer, it was constantly growing worse instead of better. You will be given three days to prepare such statement and give answer in such way to the charges above mentioned as you desire. Yours, respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. 1612 State Street, IIarrisburg, Pa., October 15, MS. Bishop Darlington. My Dear Bjshop: If you wish to inquire about Mr. 'Whitwell from the teachers directly, write to Miss McDowell, in charge of the juniors, high-school department; Miss Lydia Kemp, head of the normal-training department. These two teachers are of long standing in the Indian Service and are as concerned over the deplorable conditions as Mr. Whitwell or me. I trust you can exert a strong influence and help at this time. Very respectfully, Josephine W. Hart. [No. 8.] August 4, 1913. Mr. Whitwell: I am sending you herewith copy of a note to Mr. Washington with reference to the condition of the large-boys' building some days ago. I was over in the large-boys' quarters Sunday morning and found this condition, if anything, worse. He has evidently left it at the time of his resignation completely in the hands of the boys. It is directed that you and Mr. Collins make a business of getting the building in shape. For this purpose it will be necessary to utilize a detail of boys and give the building a thorough cleaning up. It would be well to call the boys together and give them a talk about the matter, so that they keep their rooms in better condition. But for the present, and until the disciplinarian returns, it will be necessary to make a daily round of inspection to see that these instructions are carried out. The "leaves" of one or two teachers expire this week, and if you can utilize their services in this work let me know and I shall detail them to the large-boys' quarters without delay. Please give the matter your immediate attention. Very respectfully, Moses Friedman, Superintendent. CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1093 [No. 8.] „ ,„ July 12, 1913. Mr. Washington, Acting Disciplinarian. v Dear Sir: I have been through your building several times within the last few- days, and I find a very filthy condition of affairs. Beds are unmade, old clothing is lying around, the rooms are being used for toilet purposes, the halls are littered, and the building generally is unkept. You are directed at once to take a detail of boys and clean this building up from garret to cellar,' and you will see to it hereafter, while you are in charge of the building, that at all times all the rooms, the halls, and the immediate premises, are in a neat condition, clean and sweet smelling. The matter is not one which can be delegated to boys. It should have your personal attention. Very respectfully, Moses Friedman, Superintendent. Copy to Mr. Kensler. [Notes on superintendent's letter of Aug. 4, 1913, made by Whitwell.] This shows the character of the work to which I was detailed, and the way in which other teachers were brought into it. Of course there was nothing to do but use the other teachers. The interests of the academic department were not to be even considered. [No. 9.] August 8, 1913. Mr. Whitwell: I am transmitting to you herewith circular lettere from the Indian Office with reference to the preparation of compositions on "Citizenship." Youare directed to carry out the instructions given in this letter, transmitting as many as are necessary to the teachers in whose classrooms these compositions are to be prepared, and complying in every way with the directions given by the office. The composi- tions should be prepared on time and mailed in the way designated. This should be made an opportunity for the development of sound ideas and the giving of thorough instruction along these lines to our students. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. [Notes on superintendent's letter of Aug. 8, 1913, transmitting commissioner's circular regarding "Citizenship."] Evidently the superintendent did not read the circular. As I have already shown he ignored its instructions regarding using such topics as obedience, etc., for talks at chapel exercises, and sent instructions of his own. He has taken no further steps to see if this important work is being done, such as he has taken in many minor matters. [No. 10.] August 12, 1913. Mr. Whitwell: It is directed that you resume your regular activities at the school building, so as to have all the rooms prepared in the best possible shape, ready for the school year. The lower floor has been rather badly mussed up on account of repairs of windows in the hall, and it will be well to lock the doors leading from the ' hall to the schoolrooms on both sides. It may be necessary before putting oil on to have these rooms mopped. The work should be done thoroughly and just now be resumed so that the entire building is given a chance to dry. Miss McDowell is detailed to assist in this matter. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. i " From garret to cellar " should read "from cellar to garret " (in original copy). 1094 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. [Notes on superintendent's letter of Aug. 12, 1913.] The superintendent evidently thinks my regular activities are as he has here outlined them. He told me before I left for vacation he was anxious to have the floors oiled as soon as possible, and Mr. Kensler procured the oil right away and notified Mr. Stauffer then in charge. The head janitor told me he also had advised Mr. Stauffer, as he knew that I would have started the work before I left if the oil had been on hand. [No. 11.] August 12, 1913. Mr. Dietz: During the coming school year you will be detailed to take charge of the mechanical-drawing classes in the shop building in the room which has been fit- ted up for that purpose. You should go over the matter thoroughly with Mr. Collins in order to get a close insight into the work, and it is directed that you do everything necessary this summer to prepare yourself to carry on this work successfully. It may be the classes will not begin promptly after the 1st of September, but they will be started as soon thereafter as possible. There is a good library on hand in the mechanical-drawing room for suggestive use. Possibly certain materials will be needed to carry on the work, and you will ascertain the facts with regard to this by consultation with Mr. Collins. Go into the work thoroughly, so that all necessary preparations can be made for the proper conduct and success of instruction in mechan- ical drawing during the first few months that we shall conduct these classes this year. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. Copies to Mr. Kensler, Mr. Whitwell, Mr. Collins. [Notes on superintendent's letter to Mr. Dietz, Aug. 12, 1913.] , For many months Mr. Collins (for whom the superintendent claims he obtained a promotion to Riverside School) had been detailed by the superintendent to the farm. „ Mr. Dietz, with little or no experience in teaching mechanical drawing, is to take up the work that an experienced teacher was forced to give up to do farm work. [No. 12.] August 18, 1913. Order: The telephone now in the principal teacher's house is not needed for official use. It is directed that this be removed to the teamster's house, where it will be in con- stant requisition. M. Friedman, Superintendent. Copies to Mr. Whitwell, Mr. Kensler, Mr. Foulk. [Notes on superintendent's letter of Aug. 18, 1913.] Evidently the ignoring of the principal teacher, as was done in the matter of arrang- ing debates, was a premeditated plan. [No. 13.] August 19, 1913. , Mr. Whitwell: I noticed on Monday that several of the boys working in the school building were preparing to oil the floor in the business department without' mopping and giving it a thorough cleaning. Such use of the floor oil is worse than useless. As there was none apparently looking after these boys at the time, it is directed that whenever floor oiling or any cleaning of this character is done, the boys have definite personal supervision. You will find that best results can be obtained by working with the boys. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. [Notes on superintendent's letter of Aug. 19, 1913.] I admit I was not in the school building at the time the superintendent poked his head in at the window and said to some boys who were getting ready to oil, "You are not going to oil that floor without mopping, are you? " The boys had not so far oiled CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1095- any floors without mopping, and at that time mops, buckets, and brooms were in the room, and Miss McDowell, who had attended to all the mopping, was preparing to attend to this. [No. 15.] September 3, 1913. Mr. Whitwell. As there seems to be a misunderstanding with reference to what ia to be expected of the students in the business department, these instructions are issued. Those students who are regular students of the business department by virtue of being graduates of this school, or the graduates of some other school, and have passed an examination here for proper entrance as regular students in the business depart- ment, will attend classes in that department both morning and afternoon. The princi- pal teacher, acting in conjunction with the business teacher, will decide whether certain other students who have been in the business department for a year or more shall be considered as regular students. All regular students of the business depart- ment will be expected to take care of their rooms and perform other domestic duties such as will not interfere with their attendance on their regular classes during the day and the study hour in the evening, which duties will be assigned them by the matron or disciplinarian. All students who are in the business department for part time, and are undergrad- uates, will be permitted to attend school only one half day, and will be detailed to some regular industrial department the other half day. It will be well, hereafter, not to extend special permission to students in the departmental grades to attend the business department. The business teacher will have sufficient work to take up all her time by handling the regular students of the business department and looking after the special classroom instruction, which is to be given to all the departmental grades. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. [Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 3, 1913.) This is in a large measure explained in my comments on superintendent's letter of May 26, 1913. [No. 16.] September 4, 1913. Mr. Whitwell. It is desired that you submit a program showing hours, etc., so that the moral instruction mentioned in the communication herewith submitted can be given. The work can commence Monday morning, November 10, and continue for the next four days thereafter. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. (Dr. Fairchild's program attached.) [Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 4, 1913.] I Bimply submit this as showing I am still called on to do the organizing of my work, despite the superintendent's claim that he has undertaken such work. [No. 17.] September 9, 1913. Mr Whitwell- I have been visiting the various class rooms during the study hour period, and several things have crept in which are inimical to the best interests of the study hour period. , .-,.+■ ■ ^ c For instance I note one of the class rooms spends a period of time singing before the studv hour work begins. This is unnecessary, breaks into the study hour period, and interferes with the study of the other classes which do not happen to be conduct- ing similar work, and prevents concentration on the part of the students in these other In. visiting the library, I noticed that the four upper or departmental grades are permitted to spend one evening each week in the library.. It is presumed that this 1096 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. was for the purpose of real study or for reference work under the personal direction of the teacher in charge and of the librarian. Last evening I saw one of the classes there and a large number of the students were reading the comic section of the Sunday newspapers. This can hardly be termed studying. The students have ample time to read newspapers in the quarters during their spare time. If the departmental grades are permitted to go into the library, the librarian should have all the maga- zines and newspapers out of the way, and it should be insisted upon that the stu- dents spend this time in studying matter pertaining to their class-room work. It is di- rected, therefore, that these practices be stopped and you will give your personal attention to the matter. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. Respectfully forwarded to teachers for their information and guidance. Very respectfully, John Whitwell, Principal Teacher. [Notes on superintendent's letter of September 9, 1913.] Paragraph 2. Several teachers had suggested to me that five minutes might well be given to opening exercises. Any teacher knows the value of a few minutes spent this way. I approved their request on condition that the work of other rooms was not to be interfered with. It was which could only be for the first five minutes, then the superintendent's instructions were in line with my own. Paragraph 3. Since this was written the superintendent has silently indorsed these students being in the library at this time . The freshmen are going on Monday evening, the sophomores on Tuesday evening, the juniors on Wednesday evening, and the seniors on Thursday evening. The class in question was the freshman class (their teacher, who was promoted over my protest as not being "staid" enough for this position, although a good teacher in a lower room). There were other teachers better fitted for this room. This proves it. For a while her class had to be kept out, and no later than Monday evening last the librarian complained that they were not as well behaved as the others. [No. 18.] September 9, 1913. Mr Whitwell: For the safety of the girls and for proper discipline it is directed that hereafter when the girls go to study hour that they all march in through the front hall and go to their various class rooms by passing through the downstairs rooms, and if they attend classes upstairs they shall go by way of the inside stairways. It has been found that boys on several occasions linger around the hat rooms on the outside of the porch when the girls march in. You should be on duty yourself in the hall to see that proper discipline is maintained. Very respectfully, ,,. t, M. Friedman, Superintendent. MlSS RlDENOUR. Mr. McKean. Mr. Denny. Respectfully forwarded to teachers for their information and guidance very respectfully, John Whitwell, Principal Teacher. [Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 9, 1913, regarding safety of the girls and proper discipline.) wvPS *£ t + 1 J. i8 1 , time * h J ad ? t , ood eve , ry evenin g outside the building, opposite the center, when both boys and girls marched in. I could see them enter their schoolroom doors. The teacher was mside, and if a boy loitered in the cloakroom that teacher was to blame. The superintendent's instructions have been carried out. Some teachers have to leave their rooms to stand at the head of the stairways as the girls enter intendent'fiStracti "m teacher8 ' ^^g 8 we ha ™ been able to carry out the super- When he says, "You should be on duty yourself in the hall to see that proper disci- pline is maintained," he evidently wants to give the impression that I had not been on duty and was not looking after the discipline. A boy may loiter any time, but there is a way to remedy it. ' CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1097 W « e tL h ? 8 n r el be f D T t n l Seri0 V 8 trouble about gating the pupils to their rooms but if the teachers and I had not planned in detail at teachers' meet me j « to how w were to assemble all the girls at one time in the hall for dismissal af instructed bv the superintendent, there would have been a grand mix-up; the 'same wi?h the boys^ [No. 19.] ,, ,„ _, ,. , September 18, 1913. «f^£ ^ mTWELL - The lights in the office of the school building and in one or two of the rooms are not always turned off after study hour in the Ivening. You will find it desirable to stay at the school building until all lights are turned off property and the building properly closed for the night. Experience has shown that it £ unsafe to allow matters of this kind to boy janitors pcrleuce nas snown tnat n ls Very respectfully, M. Fmedman, Superintendent. [Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 18, 1913.] ThfhJSfl?^ Stau ^ er wa * us i a e t^ ^hts in the music room after study hour. I-ftHr,' TS. 1 * 1 " - - Wl - th a11 the other U 8 hts turned out - wh y should not he, with the help of of the head janitor, attend to his own lights I simply mention this to show the circumstances under which some lights may be burning after study hour. 6 ' [No. 20.] September 23, 1913. Mr. Whitwell: Bruce Goesback, who was dropped some months ago as a student when he was taken up on the Government pay roll, was dropped from the Govern- ment pay roll beginning with September 1, and he is to be taken up again on the rolls as a student beginning with this date, the 23rd. Very respectfully, n *.%,■., ■„■ ^- Friedman, Superintendent. Copy to Mr. McKean. (Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 23, 1913.] I simply send this to complete the list of. letters sent to me by the superintendent since the time he claims to have undertaken the work of organizing my department. Department of the Interior, United States Indian School, Carlisle, Pa., December 12, 1913. Mr. Whitwell: As per instructions from the superintendent, Bruce Goesback is to be dropped from the school rolls on November 30, 1913, and will be taken up as an employee beginning December 1, 1913^ Very respectfully , Chief Cleric. [No. 21.] Carlisle, Pa., September 29, 1913. Superintendent Friedman: The reports from girls' quarters have been returned without the health of the girls being reported. The matron advises this is to be done at thehospital. I have no, instructions to? this effect. The disciplinarians have made their reports just as they have always been made, and. it is evident that the hospital officials are not in a position to report on boys and girls they do not even see, but of course I simply want to know how to do it and will be guided by the instructions from the proper authority. I inclose reports showing how the matter has been handled in the past. Monthly letters are being held. Very respectfully, John Whitwell. 1098 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. [Notes on principal teacher's letter to Supt. Friedman, Sept. 29, 1913.) Anyone versed in school matters will realize what it means to have to take this method of "finding out" as to a procedure which I judge has been in vogue here ever since the school was organized. [No. 22.] September 29, 1913. Mr. Whitwell: While the monthly school entertainment on Saturday night was a distinct improvement on the poor programs which have been given at times during the past year or two, it was not of the high order and excellence which should characterize a monthly program by a school of this character and size. Some of the numbers had distinct merit and were well rendered, while others were far below par. So that these programs can be further improved, and the students obtain the maxi- mum amount of benefit from them, you will initiate at once the following plan: One number should be given by the students of each class, including one from the business department. This will mean that ei ch month every teacher in the school building will have one number on. These numbers may be readings, recitations, orations current events, or of similar character. All the vocal, instrumental, and musical numbers will be given by the music department, under the director of music as here- tofore. This will provide a program of proper length. I noticed that the program on Satur- day evening was of hardly half an hour's duration. It is further directed, and the teachers will see the importance of this, that the stu- dents be carefully trained. It is not sufficient that students memorize the words of whatever piece they give. It is of great importance that they get the meaning of the piece, the proper intonations and gestures, and that they speak in a sufficiently loud tone to be heard distinctly in all parts of the room. In order to get these results, the students must be given their numbers at an earlier date, and they must be trained. I also desire that the band be present at each of these monthly entertainments, instead of the orchestra, to occupy the stage and intersperse several selections. 1 am sending you a sample program, which was given at Carlisle, Thursday, April 21, 1904, which will indicate how these programs are to be prepared in the future. In having the program printed, I not only wish the number of the room printed, but the name of the teacher as well. These monthly entertainments are of great import- ance. The program should be prepared early in the month, so that when it is given the last Saturday of the month, both students and teachers will have had sufficient time for preparation . These monthly meetings should provide an evening of recitation, song, and enter- tainment, Buch as will enthuse and inspire the entire student body, and nothing short of the best should be given. I feel very confident that the teachers at Carlisle will cooperate thoroughly to bring these programs to such a high state of efficiency as will accord with the age and advancement of the student body and the size and standing of the school. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. [Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 29, 1913.] Paragraph 1. The superintendent evidently forgets or does not know that the primary object of these entertainments is to train pupils from first grade to senior in the art of speaking in public, and of memorizing things worth remembering. It is not for show, and it was the fact that many teachers and the superintendent at the time thought that the programs were unnecessarily long, that led to the program's being shortened. However, I believe the old plan of having a representative speaker from each room, is better than the present plan of alternating each month; but it is not to be expected that all numbers from all classes of pupils will always be perfect. It is more important ■ that they be the right kind of numbers and afford material for character training, than that they should be showy and at the same time detrimental to the best interests of •' the school and the speaker like the numbers Mrs. Lovewell complains of in her letter to Mr. Stauffer, which I am inclosing. The fact that the superintendent lauds Mr. Stauffer and censures Mrs. Lovewell, would seem'to indicate his neglect to appreciate • this side of the question. I will be glad, however, to do all possible in the way of improving our programs. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1099 September 30, 1913. Mr. Whitwell. For the improvement of the regular chapel or assembly exercises, which are held in connection with the work of the academic department, and for the guidance of all those concerned when there is a general meeting of the student body, either at the time of the monthly program or when I speak to the students, or have outside speakers, the following instructions are issued: The following program will be followed for the Monday chapel exercises: 1. A selection by the orchestra. 2. The singing of a carefully selected song with a good theme. 3. The reading of the Bible lesson. 4. Repeating the Lord's prayer. 5. A talk by the principal teacher. 6. General instructions to students, or announcements with reference to changes, schedules, etc. 7. The singing of a song. 8. Dismissal. The Bible reading should be of sufficient length — usually a chapter — so that a definite lesson is conveyed, and it should be varied from week to week. These Bible readings should be in accordance with the regulations, as follows: "Sec. 13. (a) Substitute the revised version for the King James version of the Bible for scriptual reading, and confine these to the four Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles." The talk indicated by the principal teacher should be at least 10 minutes long, carefully prepared, and on some well-defined subject which will point out some ideal or lesson in life, or on an educational theme, or on some current event, which should be discussed at length and a definite lesson drawn, either in civic \rirtue or leading toward citizenship, or for character building. The various student numbers by students of the upper classes will be eliminated in the future. In order to obtain the best results and to have proper direction given to the sing- ing, all singing at chapel exercises, or at the general assemblies of students, will be led personally by the director of music, you to announce the number of the song. These same instructions will govern at meetings where the superintendent presides. When the time comes for the dismissal of students, it will be done by the principal teacher, or whoever is in charge, calling on each section of the students to rise in turn — small boys first, large boys next, girls third — with instructions to the student officers to march off their troops; it is not desired, hereafter, that the students be stopped, or that time be marked for them by the snapping of fingers. If the officers do not march off their students properly, a note Bhould be made of the fact and they should be instructed privately, or by gathering all the officers together and giving them proper instructions. As a matter of fact, whenever I have dismissed the students I have followed this procedure and have never had occasion to criticize the way the students marched out. When the superintendent is in charge of a general assembly he will look after the dismissal of the students himself. When the principal teacher is in charge of the chapel exercises or an assembly he will dismiss them in the way above mentioned, and after calling on the sections to rise will stand off at a distance and allow the captains to take charge. The careful carrying out of these instructions will be of material assistance, not only in gwing proper instruction and in enthusing and inspiring the student body, but in creating that initiative and proper conduct during assemblies as is of most value to students. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. [Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 20, 1913.] (See also copy of my letter of October 15, bearing on this matter.) In this letter he directs that recitations by pupils in the chapel exercises on Mondays be discontinued. While this request has been complied with, it is not a change for the better. These recitations were helpful not only to those who committed and recited them, but to those who listened to them. They were carefully selected recita- tions, upbuilding in character. They did require extra work on the part of both pupil and teacher, but it was work that was worth while . Sometimes those recitations were printed in the Arrow under heading as essays. . A teacher protested to the clerk at the printing office that they were not original essays but recitations copied, committed and recited, the reply was, we are to print them as directed. 1100 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. (Comments on superintendent's letter of May 2(i, 1913, which was addressed to Miss Moore through Mr. Whitwell.J Paragraph 2. No instruction in business training was given to departmental stu- dents at this time simply because to make a place for the assistant art teacher and assistant coach, the time formerly given to business training was given to drawing by special order of the superintendent. When the assistant coach was made teacher of mechanical drawing then the business classes were resumed just as they had been before the drawing classes were begun. Paragraph 3. These rules were suggested by me at faculty meeting and are now in the calendar word for word just as I wrote them. Paragraph 4. No other student with as little preparation as James Thorpe has ever been admitted to the department. He was never recognized by me as a business stu- dent, but spent part of his time in the department. He did not enter his regular classes. Reports to disciplinarian of his absence from his regular class brought no results. All the superintendent would say was that he should attend school all day. TESTIMONY OF MISS JULIA HARDIN. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. Your name is Julia Hardin ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are you a pupil in the Carlisle School ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have you been studying there ? Miss Hardin. Three years next September. The Chairman. What class are you in ? Miss Hardin. Business department. The Chairman. What is your age ? Miss Hardin. Eighteen. The Chairman. Where are you from ? Miss Hardin. Shawnee, Okla. The Chairman. What tribe 1 Miss Hardin. Pottawatomie. The Chairman. Are you full-blood % Miss Hardin. One-quarter. The Chairman. Where did you go to school before you came to Carlisle? Miss Hardin. Sacred Heart, Oklahoma; convent school. The Chairman. What have you been stydying there ? Miss Hardin. In the business department, taking .up law, short- hand, typewriting, spelling, arithmetic, and English. The Chairman. Who is your teacher % Miss Hardin. Miss Moore. The Chairman. What is your relationship with her ? How do you get along ? Miss Hardin. Very well. I have always gotten "excellent" in my reports. The Chairman. You have gotten "excellent" on all your reports? Miss Hardin. Every month since I have been in there. The Chairman. How do you get along with her with reference to being friendly ? Miss Hardin. We are all right. The Chairman. You have had no trouble whatever ? Miss Hardin. No, sir. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1101 The Chairman. Did you desire to go into the country and work in somebody's home 1 Miss- Hardin. I wanted to go after I found out the girls were all going'. I asked if I could go — the outing agent came to me and asked me if I wanted to go to the country. I said, "I don't want to go right away." She said, "Come and sign, and we will look up your country home." I said, "Wait until I get a trunk and some clothes." I did not want to sign right away, but she said to sign so she could be looking up my home in the meantime. The Chairman. When were you informed you had to leave to go to the country ? Miss Harding. One morning, I think it was the 2d of June. They told me that morning just before dinner that I was to leave the next morning on the early train. The Chairman. Who was it that told you that you must get ready to go to the country ? Miss Hardin. The report came here from the matron's office. I did not know who sent it, but it said, "You are to go to the country to-morrow morning. Come out and get your things ready." The Chairman. Were you ready to go then ? Miss Hardin. No ; I had no trunk, and not the clothes thatl wanted. The Chairman: What did you do ? Miss Hardin. I came over and I saw our matron about it. She said she had nothing to do with it; that I was supposed to go to the country. She sent me up to the office, and I went up to Mrs. La Flesche. Mrs. La Flesche said I was to go to the country, and if I did not want to go I was to see Mr. Friedman about it. So after dinner I ran up and met Mr. Friedman and asked him could I wait, and I stated just how it was. He said, "I have not anything to do with it; go to your matron." The Chairman. The matron sent you to Supt. Friedman and he sent you back to the matron ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you go back ? Miss Hardin. I went back to her and I told her. She said she had nothing to do with it; that I had to go to the superintendent. So neither one gave a definite answer and I did not know what to do. I went to school that afternoon; so she sent for rrfe from school. I came over, and she told me I was to get my clothes ready and take them in a bundle if I did not have any trunk. The Chairman. What did you do ? Miss Hardin. I came over and I went in the sewing room— the clothes room, rather— and I told her that I did not want to take my clothes in a bundle. She told me to sit on a chair, and I sat there. I waited there until she got through packing up the clothes. Finally Mr. Stauffer came in. He said, "Julia Hardin, you are going to the country " I never said anything else. Finally he said, Go in the office there " I walked in the office, and there was a check to sign for my train fare. He told me to sign the check. I said, "I have not got my clothes ready." He said, "Don't mind about your clothes. . I refused to sign the check; so he grabbed me and said, iou are going to sign it." So he slapped me. The Chairman. With his hand ? Miss Hardin. With his hand. 1102 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Where did he strike you ? Miss Hardin. On my face. The Chairman. Go ahead. Miss Hardin. Then 1 stepped back and he said, "You are going to sign this check and go to the country to-night at 5 o'clock. We are not going to let you wait and go with the other girls." They had my uniform there. He said, "We are not talking about your clothes or anything. You are going to the country." I just sat there. He said, "1 am going to give you a sound thrashing, and I will stand the responsibility." I told him, "Well, if you had let me get ready I would sign it, but not until." He said, "You will go as I say. We won't make any arrangements for you." So I stayed there, and all of a sudden he jerked a board down from one of the window sills and he pushed me down on the floor, and two of the matrons held me ; Miss Kidenour was one, and I don't know who the other was. They put down the curtains, so no one could see in, and they locked the door. The Chairman. Who locked the door ? Miss Hardin. I think it was Miss Kidenour. The Chairman. Well, they held you. What did he do ? Miss Hardin. He whipped me. The Chairman. What with ? Miss Hardin. With the board off the window sill. The Chairman. How many times did he strike you ? Miss Hardin. He whipped me for at least ten minutes. The Chairman. Did he hurt you ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; he did. The Chairman. How large was the board ? Miss Hardin. It was one of those boards off the window; that long and that wide [indicating]. The Chairman. About three inches wide Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And 2 or 2\ feet long ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What position was you lying in on the floor? Miss Hardin. I was lying on the floor and he would keep pushing me up against the wall. The Chairman* Were you on your back or on your face ? Miss Hardin. I was on my face, because I had my hand over my head. The Chairman. Where did he strike you ? Miss Hardin. On the head, and every place. He hit me in the face, and every place, so I laid with my hand like this so he could not touch my fac<\ The Chairman. How did he come to whip you ? Was he con- nected with the discipline in any way ? Did he explain to you ? Miss Hardin. He did not explain anything. He came in there, and just as soon as he said "Sign that check," and I never signed it, why he said, "I will stand the resnonsibility." And Miss Ridenour said, "Yes, go ahead." And he said, "Shall' I whip her some more?" He said, "Well, I will stand it; I will not bt her get ahead of me " The Chairman. Did Mr. Whitwrll come over there? Miss Hardin. Yes. Finally Mr. Stauffer got through whipping me, I guess he got tired. He sat down, and he said, "Are you going?" CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1103 and I said, "Not on condition the way you are treating me." He sent for Mr. Whitwell, and Mr. Whitwell came over and he came up to me, and he said, "Julia Hardin, are my eyes deceiving me, or what?" He came over to me and spoke in a nice way, and said, "Come on, Julia; come over and sign this check and go to the country, and show them you are a lady." I said, "All right," and I signed the check, and I went to the country the next morning. After Mr. Whitwell left, Mr. Stauffer and Miss Kidenour took me to the lock-up. I stayed there until after supper, and I went out to get my clothes. When she took me back it was awful hot in there, so I asked her if I would apologize to her would she take me out on condition I was going to the country; She said, "If you apologize to us we will let you out," so I apologized to her. But she said, ' 'We don't want you with the girls," so she put me I own in her room that night. The Chairman. Where did you go in the country ? Miss Hardin. Merchantville, N. J. ; Mr. and Mrs. Crawford. The Chairman. How long did you stay there? Miss Hardin. Three months. The Chairman. What did you get ? Miss Hardin. Six dollars a month. The Chairman. What did you do ? Miss Harding. Washing, scrubbing, housecleaning, and cooking. The Chairman. Did you pay your railroad fare one way ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What were your railroad expenses ? Miss Hardin. $3.79. The Chairman. How did the people with whom you were staying treat you? Miss Hardin. They treated me nice. The Chairman. Have you had any trouble since you came back? Miss Hardin. No. The Chairman. Have you ever had any trouble with the teachers or matrons before ? Miss Hardin. No, sir. The Chairman. Didn't you use some offensive language or some- thing to cause them to loose their temper ? Miss Hardin. No, sir. The Chairman. You got mad, of course ? Miss Hardin. Yes, I got mad, of course. The Chairman. Did you come here with the expectation or inten- tion of being sent out into the country ? Miss Hardin. I knew nothing about it. The Chairman. Did you know how to do housework before you came here ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. • The Chairman. Did you consent to study housework ? Miss Hardin. Why, no ; I knew nothing about it. The Chairman. After you came, you say, you understood some of the girls were going, and you did consent to go on condition you would have an opportunity to get ready ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. But at the time the report came for me to go Miss Johnson was not here, so I did not have any proof that 1 did intend to go on these conditions. 1104 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Do you know whether Mr. Stauffer has whipped any other pupils or not ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; he has whipped several of his band boys in the guard house. The Chairman. Can you name some ? Miss Hardin. Two, and I forgot the other boys' names. The Chairman. He whipped them in the guard house? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; while they were in there, he and Mr. Warner. The Chairman. Do you know the names of the other boys? Miss Hardin. Robert Nash. The Chairman. Is he here now? Miss Hardin. He is here now. The other one is away. The Chairman. Do you know of other girl students in the school who have been struck or whipped by any other person at Carlisle ? Miss Hardin. There is a lot of girls over there. The Chairman. You have named Robert Nash as one of the boys that were whipped in the lock-up by Mr. Warner and Mr. Stauffer. Were the other boys Thomas Nicholas and Charles Bellcourt ? Miss Hardin. I do not know of them. The Chairman. Did you know of Miss Ridenour and Miss Rosa Knight having a difference ? Miss Hardin. Rose Whipper — yes, sir. The Chairman. What do you know about that? Miss Hardin. One Sunday morning I was in my room — I got excused from church; and Rose Whipper — I don't know whether she got excused or not; I won't say; but I was in my room, and I heard a noise in the next room, and Miss Ridenour slapped Rose. So Rose got out, and the first thing I saw was them scuffling right out in the hall. They were down on the floor with each other, so I saw Rose — she had her hands in Miss Ridenour's hair, and she had her hands around Rose's neck. They were what you would call regular scuffling. Miss Ridenour would say, "Let go of my hair," and Miss Rose would say, "Let go of my neck." Finally she called Miss Knight up there, and she and Miss Knight whipped Rose. The Chairman. How old is she ? Miss Hardin. Nineteen or twenty. Then they put her in the lock-up. The Chairman. You have had no further trouble since the incident you have already narrated ? Miss Hardin. No, sir. Representative Carter. Miss Julia, did you ever have any trouble at other schools before you came here ? Miss Hardin. No, sir. Representative Carter. Were you ever corrected or chastised in any way at other schools ? Miss Hardin. I was corrected for little things I have done, but never for anything that was serious. Representative Carter. You were never chastised ? Miss Hardin. No, sir. Representative Carter. You say that you got "excellent" in everything ? Miss Hardin. I got "excellent" ever since I have been here every day of school. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1105 Representative Carter. "Excellent" in deportment ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; that is what I mean. Representative Carter. You did not get "excellent" for the month that you had the trouble over there, did you ? Miss Hardin. Why, that was the month that— the 2d of June I went to the country, and I never got my report. Representative Carter. You have had "excellent" in deport- ment ever since you have been here, while you were in the school and while you were out in the country ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. When I went out in the country my country people knew all about this, and when I arrived there she told me, she said: "Julia, we will have to go rather hard on you." I said, "Why is that?" She said, "Because we have a report from school that you had some trouble in coming out here. You are not allowed to go out and visit your friends or anything." The Chairman. Did they tell you who had sent that report out there? Miss Hardin. Thev never said, but they knew the whole story. They knew all about it when they met me at the station. She said, "If you are not what they say you are you will have to prove it." The Chairman. So you went out there with a bad reputation ? Miss Hardin. Yes. The Chairman. From the school here ? Miss Hardin. Yes. The Chairman. How did you get along with them ? Miss Hardin. I got along fine. She said — when Miss Johnson came out there Miss Johnson tried to explain the troubles I had. She said, "I don't want to hear anything about it. Julia has always been good as long as she has been out here, and I have got a good opinion of her, and I don't want anyone to change it." And she would not listen. She called me right in and told me. Miss John- son started in again, and she said, "Miss Johnson, I don't want to know anything about it." The Chairman. How long had you been there when Miss Johnson came out and made that statement? Miss Hardin. The second day. The Chairman. What was her object in coming out? Miss Hardin. I don't know; I know nothing about it. Representative Stephens. What position does she hold here? Miss Hardin. She is outing agent. Representative Carter. How many times did this fellow Staufter throw you down and whip you ? Miss Hardin. He must have thrown me down five or six times. Representative Carter. Are your mother and father living now, Miss Julia ? Miss Hardin. No, sir. Representative Carter. Both are dead ? Miss Hardin. Yes. Representative Carter. How long have they been dead I Miss Hardin. My father has been dead five or six years. Representative Carter. Did he die before you came here ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. And your mother died earlier i 35601— pt 11—14 10 '- J 1106 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Miss Hardin. Yes. Representative Carter. You are an orphan girl ? Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. How did you happen to come to this school, Miss Julia ? Miss Hardin. Well, there are several of my friends, girl chums, that were coming, and one day they came over and asked me if I would not come along. My guardian said he thought it would be a nice trip and everything. He said we could come if we wanted to. Representative Carter. Who is your guardian ? Miss Hardin. Mr. Bunton, at Shawnee. Representative Carter. How many times did this fellow strike you ? Could you give us an estimate ? Miss Hardin. About 60 times. Representative Carter. Did he leave any marks on you ? Miss Hardin. He did when he hit me on my face. Of course, I had my hands over my face. TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANGEL DIETZ. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. Representative Carter. Mrs. Dietz, can you tell us about the discipline and the general conditions in the school at Carlisle ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes; it has been more or less neglected. It is just practically herding them together, and never giving them advice or counsel. The general outward discipline has been kept up, punish- ments and that sort of thing, but there is the underlying general neglect of advice and talkings-to they would seem to need. Representative Carter. Mrs. Dietz, what about the morals of the school and the attempt to enforce morality in the school ? Are the morals of the school good or bad ? Mrs. Dietz. I think it is, according to this list of names I have; it is pretty bad. * Representative Carter. What is this list of names you have, Mrs. Dietz ? Mrs. Dietz. It is an incomplete list of names of girls that I have taken, given me by the girls. They are girls that have been ruined morally. Representative Carter. In the school ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. Representative Carter. How many of them are there, Mrs. Dietz? Mrs. Dietz. I have 28 here. Representative Carter. How long a period of time has that been running ? Mrs. Dietz. This covers I do not know how many years, but it is just since Mr. Friedman's time. We did not expect any names that came before that. Representative Carter. Those girls have all been ruined in the institution and sent back to their several homes ? Mrs. Dietz. And out in the country, in the outing districts, some of them, and here in the school. Representative Carter. They were ruined in the outing districts and at the school ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes, sir. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1107 Representative Carter. About what proportion of them Mrs Dietz, were ruined m the school, and what proportion in the outing? Mrs. Dietz That I failed to put down here, but these names writ- ten in ink (the first 22) were the names given me by the girls who had been here at least four years, and these names I put down after- wards as ones I remembered and others suggested to me— these names in pencil. I do not know which ones were ruined in the out- ing districts. I failed to put that down. (The list referred to is as follows:) 1 . 2. - 3. - 4. - 5. - 6. - 7. - 8. - 9. - 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. Representative Carter. Mr. Friedman knows of all this trans- action, does he ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes; and they punished the girls — -put them in the lock-up. And in cases where it was impossible to keep them in the school I think they sent them home, but the punishment of expul- sion was never pronounced on them until this case took place. I have her name here. That occurred last year. I was highly interested in her case; she was a relation of my mother's. When she was sent here she was sent somewhat in my care, and I kept my eye on the girl for a couple of years. Then when she went wrong I went up to Mr. Friedman. I asked him what he was going to do in case, and he said he was going to have her sent out to the country. I said, "What good will that do, Mr. Friedman, because I understand the girl rebels against that, and she threatens to do worse. She has got to the point of recklessness r" And Mr. Friedman said it was because she did not want to go, that that was punishment. He was not going to allow her to marry the 1108 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. young man, bccauso they wanted to get married. He was one of the school boys here. Then he asked mo what reason I had for taking an interest in this case. I said, "For the reason that she is a cousin of my mother's, and when she was sent hero she was put under my observation." Then he changed his attitude, and he asked me what suggestions I would make, and as I could not make any suggestions, because he was the head of the school, and I just waited his orders, because I wanted to know so I could send word out to the people. That was the first case they ever expelled. I suggested to him that no punishment would be great enough for a girl who went wrong, because she had learned better before she came here. Representative Carter. Was this boy that she wanted to marry the boy that had ruined her? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. Representative Carter. And Mr. Friedman prevented that, or tried to ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes; he said he would not allow them to marry, because that is what they wanted to do. Representative Carter. And where is the girl now, Mrs. Dietz ? Mrs. Dietz. She is home. Representative Carter. With her mother ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. He expelled her, and that was the first time that the sentence of expelling was pronounced on a girl that went wrong. Representative Carter. That was the first girl that was expelled for that kind of offense? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. Representative Carter. That was done because you objected to him keeping her in the school? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. I told him that if the school rules had failed to keep her straight it was time she was under the care of her mother and grandmother, and he said: "That is what I will do; I will expel her." Representative Carter. And he then sent her home ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. Representative Carter. You neglected to state to begin with what your position is. Mrs. Dietz. I have charge of the art department. Representative Carter. You are an art teacher? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. Representative Carter. You are an Indian, are you not? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. Representative Carter. What degree of blood ? Mrs. Dietz. I am three-fourths Indian. Representative Carter. What tribe ? Mrs. Dietz. Winnebago. Representative Carter. Now, Mrs. Dietz, can you tell us about the unjust treatment of the boys and girls by the management here? Mrs. Dietz. I do not exactly know how to answer that question. Representative Carter. Do they treat them all alike ? Mrs. Dietz. I hardly think so. A good many students complain of|the treatment, and it hardly seems just to me sometimes. CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. HQQ ^ Representative Carter. Can you give us some of the instances . Mrs. Dietz. Well, an instance came under my observation iust this fah\ It was the case of a boy, WiUiam ZaL; he £ Sioux ?„ y +}, n ? l I \ and h 1S ° Ver a ^ e for this s « hool > according to the rules, so he got special permission from the Indian Office I think, to come here, He came here with the view of studying under Mr. Djetz starting his career as an artist. He is rThef WfWlf tha VT', H , 6 had that understanding before he came here, that he was to study drawing, and when he came here Mr Fried- man told him he could work under him. I remember the day that Francis Zahn came to me and told me he was to work that day in my department. Mr. Friedman took back his word when he started in, and the boy had to go through a good deal of trials and punish- ments because Mr. Friedman denied that he had given the bov permission. ' J Representative Carter. Let me understand that, Mrs. Dietz I he : boy says that when he came here he came with the understand- ing fromMr. Friedman that he was to study drawing and horticulture? Mrs. Dietz. No, just drawing. Representative Carter. To study drawing. And he started to work under you to begin with, to prepare him for the course which Mr. Dietz was to give him ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. Representative Carter. And then Mr. Friedman stopped him from that, did he ? Mrs. Dietz. I don't know — he told me that he had the under- standing with the Indian Office — he got special permission because he was over age, and I do not know whether he had an understand- ing with Mr. Friedman or not, but he come up with that under- standing, and Mr. Friedman was willing to have him study his whole time with us. Representative Carter. Then when did Mr. Friedman object to his studying ? Mrs. Dietz. No; he gave him permission, but just verbal per- mission, and when he was started in, thinking that that verbal permission was enough from the superintendent, Mr. Friedman denied that he had ever gave him permission. Representative Carter. Did he ever try to to take him out of the drawing department ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. He gave him just half a day, and I told him to be satisfied with that. I kept him in my department on the half-day work. Representative Carter. Then the boy got a little refractory because he thought he was not getting Mrs. Dietz. No; he has been very patient about everything. Representative Carter. But in spite of that, Mr. Friedman put little punishments on him occasionally ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes; made it rather hard for him at times; but I told him to just take whatever they put on him because that was the only way that he could get along. Representative Carter. The boy is still in the school ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. 1110 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Representative Carter. Is he still being discriminated against by Mr. Friedman now ? Mrs. Dietz. Well, I don't know. The boy is very quiet, and he does not say very much. He has been punished for little things Representative Carter. That other students were not punished for? Mrs. Dietz. They said he was loafing one day, and he was pun- ished for that, but I did not inquire into that very deeply, because that only came under the disciplinarian's part of it. Representative Carter. Do you know of any other cases, Mrs. Dietz, of discrimination ? Mrs. Dietz. There was a boy that belonged to a cousin of mine out West. He made the mistake of coming here — I mean, he meant to go to Hampton, and came here instead. When he got here he found he had had all the work that the senior class of the school was doing, and he wanted to go back, and Mr. Friedman told him he could go back if he reimbursed the fare from Winnebago, Nebr., to Carlisle. The boy's father was perfectly willing to reimburse the school for the travel expense of the boy, and then Mr. Friedman changed his mind again. He would not let the boy go, and the boy was kept on here doing nothing, and after a while the boy got sullen, and it kept on. and he was punished more or less. Finally, he went home just two or three weeks ago. Representative Carter. Wbat was his name ? Mrs. Dietz. Francis Lamere. Representative Carter. You did not give us the girl's name either ? Mrs. Dietz. ■ — — — — ■. Representative Carter. That was your relative ? Mrs. Dietz. Yes. Representative Carter. Are these cases of discrimination that you speak of, Mrs. Dietz, the rule? Is that a common thing among the children, or are these just exceptional cases? Mrs. Dietz. There have been a good many complaints just on that order, but I have not been around very much over there. The complaint is general. Representative Carter. What can you tell me, Mrs. Dietz, about the food that is furnished the children ? Mrs. Dietz. The food has been complained of a good deal. There were times that the students, no matter how hungry they were, could not eat the food that was placed before them. It was badly cooked, and it was rather short. Representative Carter. Do you go to the childrens' dining room at any time? The pupils' dining room? Mrs. Dietz. No, I have not been there very much. Representative Carter. You do not know then specifically what food they have to eat ? Mrs. Dietz. No. Representative Carter. What can you tell us about boys drinking ? Mrs. Dietz. The boys have told me they can get whisky any time they want it. I asked them where they get it, and they say they get it in town from negroes. Representative Carter. Has there been attempt, so far as you know to prosecute these boot-leggers, these negroes, who furnish whisky to the boys ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1111 Mrs. Dietz. I do not think they have done that Representative Carter. But a great many of the boys have been placed in the city jail for getting drunk, haven't the Y » I tWnk theJ haV6 ' tW ° CaSGS that * ^ ow of - Twice > Representative Carter Mrs. Dietz, what is the attitude of the children toward Mr. Friedman? Mrs. Dietz. Why, they have no respect for him at all. Dietz P ? re Carter. What do you attribute that to, Mrs. stude^tF IETZ " I thlnk ** iS JUSt HiS P ersonal bea ring toward the • Representative Carter. Do you think he has any interest much m the chudren? Mrs. Dietz It does not seem to me that he has. He has not led them as head of the school. _ Representative Carter. Do you think he is very much interested m or has any respect for an Indian ? Mrs. Dietz. I do not think so. Representative Carter. Is there anything more vou wanted to say? Mrs. Dietz. No, sir. TESTIMONY OF LOUIS SCHWIEGMABT, FORMER STUDENT. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. Were you a student formerly at the Carlisle school ? Mr. Schwiegman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. For how long? Mr. Schwiegman. Three years. The Chairman. Were you dismissed from the school? Mr. Schwiegman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. For what were you dismissed? Mr. Schwiegman. I can not tell you exactly why I was expelled. The Chairman. Tell me what you know about it. Mr. Schwiegman. Well, sir, I attended school here three years. Then last summer I went home, and in the fall I brought some stu- dents back here with me, and Mr. Friedman wrote me and said I should bring some students with me, and he would pay my fare here and home again, providing I brought 12 students. So while I was home last summer I got 14 of them, but of course they were turned down, with the exception of 6, so I brought them along with me. Besides, I intended to take up sign painting this year while I am back here. Of course, the rest of the three years I was here I went to school half a day and worked at the trade the other half day. I had to quit school last spring on account of my eyes. They had released me from school, so I did not intend to go to school, but I came back with the intention of taking up sign painting, but after I came back the painters were very busy, and I could not take it up right away, Mr. Friedman told me. So I was detailed over to the school building, and I told Mr. Fried- man about this trade I wanted to take up, and he did not seem to look into it right away. So I stayed over at the school building, and 1112 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. worked over there for Mr. Whitwell. Finally, here just lately, he knew I was working down there, and He said I should be up to the shop working at my trade, so then he sent me up there, and I stayed up there for about three weeks. I was talcing up the trade as a sign painter. One day I was called up to the office, and he told me then 1 had to leave the grounds. He said he did not want me around here, that I was loafing; he said I was just simply wasting my time here. The Chairman. So you were discharged? Mr. Schwiegman. Yes, sir. He never even gave me any warning beforehand. The Chairman. Have you seen Mr. McKean since you came back here to testify before the commission ? Mr. Schwiegman. Yes; I saw him. The Chairman. Did he give you notice of the fact that the superin- tendent had ordered you from the grounds. Mr. Schwiegman. He did not, but the assistant disciplinarian told me this morning. The Chairman. Did you tell him that you wanted to appear before the joint commission? Mr. Schwiegman. Yes, sir; I told him I would like to be here this morning, as I saw Mr. Linnen yesterday morning. Representative Stephens. Who ordered you off the grounds? Mr. Schwiegman. Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. Just put this letter in the record. (The letter referred to is as follows:) February 6, 1914. Mr. McKean: It has been reported to me that Louis Schwiegman, a boy that was not permitted to remain at the school as being undesirable, was on the campus last evening and slept in the quarter's, leaving early this morning. This is decidedly against the best interests of discipline here, and its repetition should not be permitted. Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. Representative Stephens. Did some of his employees order you off the grounds yesterday or to-day? Mr. Schwiegman. No ; that was the first time. The letter was read to me this morning. The Chairman. Have you been disturbed in your position by any representative of the school here — where are you working now? Mr. Schwiegman. At Grayson, just above Carlisle here 6 miles. The Chairman. Have you been disturbed any way ? Did anybody try to get you fired ? Mr. Schwiegman. No one has so far. TESTIMONY OF MES. LYDIA E. KAUP, NORMAL TEACHER. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. In what capacity are you employed at Carlisle, Mrs. Kaup ? Mrs. Kaup. Normal teacher. The Chairman. How long have you been working in that capacity? Mrs. Kaup. As normal teacher, I think, 4 or 5 years. I am not quite sure. I think this is my fifth term, or fourth, but I was a teacher in the grades before. OAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1113 The Chairman. What are the relations between Superintendent Friedman and the pupils in the school? Mrs. Kaup. Well, I do not know so much about that, but I am afraid, tney are not very good. The Chairman. Do you know how he is looked upon bv the em- ployees in the school ? J Mrs. Kaup. By some I suppose, all right; and by some he is not. ine Chairman. Would you say that the relations between the superintendent and the employees generally speaking are amicable or otherwise ? ° Mr. Kaup. Otherwise. The Chairman. What is that due to ? Mrs. Kaup. I think to his insolence to us. The Chairman. Is he disagreeable at times ? Mrs. Kaup. Yes. Tlie Chairman. How many pupils have you in your department ? Mrs. Kaup. I have, since last September, enrolled 141; but some went to the country, some ran away, and I promoted a few, and I have now 115, I think. The Chairman. What progress is being made in the normal departs ment ? If it is not satisfactory, tell me briefly why you think it is not so. Mrs. Kaup. Why, the crowd is too big. I have too many. The pupils that come to my department are the beginners. Some are adults; and this year they brought in quite a number of small ones, and they are just a class of pupils without any individual attention, and the crowd is too large. I have six girls that are pupil teachers, and I am supposed to train those, and they are to have classes. The understanding is that each pupil teacher shall have about six, and then I am to oversee and give them training. There was a time when there was an assistant, but that was abolished before I took the position. It so happens that the number is so big that I have 53 pupils of my own that I teach, and they are of three different grades. That makes the work harder, too. I have five grades, so that makes a great deal of planning. I have 53 of my own, and then I am obliged to give the pupil teachers my pupils, those they ought to have. Two of my most advanced pupils, those I have had two years — one is 16 and the other is 13. They need so much individual attention that I am not able to give the pupil teachers the same attention that I ought to give. I have what I call observation lessons. I keep the whole school in the room, and I give a drill lesson for the pupil teachers to observe. They must be present. Then what little time I have I oversee the work, and I try to keep in touch with it. For /example, when I have third- grade pupils, I have to give to two of the pupil teachers third pupils. Then I keep in touch with that. I consult with them and explain to them how to handle the lesson. If I think it is something special, I call the pupils out and give the drill in my room, and then I require them to hand in a program every day. When they are excused the girls have so little time. There was a thro when the normal teacher was allowed a half hour each session to consult with her pupil teachers on methods, but when the whistle blows the girls must go. Once in a while I just keep them a little and give them some extra training. I get my class started, and take the pupil teachers, and give them instructions. But I can not look after 1114 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. them, because I have too many of my own. I can not look after them as I would like to. The worst is the scholars are getting rid of the attention they ought to have. There are too many that need indi- vidual attention. Some of them when they come can not understand a word of English, and they especially need attention. The Chairman. How does the discipline now prevailing compare with what it formerly was ? Mrs. Kaup. It is very good to what it was. The Chairman. When did it begin to improve ? Mrs. Kaup. Since last September, about. The Chairman. It is very much better now than it was up to last September ? Mrs. Kaup. Yes. The Chairman. What is the cause of that improvement; do you know? Mrs. Kaup. No; I could not tell, unless they have made stricter rules. The Chairman. How does the discipline compare under Mr. Fried- man's administration with that of other administrations you have known here ? Mrs. Kaup. I came here just shortly before Mr. Friedman came. Well, I think it was — I know it was better before. TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. MILLER, FINANCIAL CLERK. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. What employment have you now, Mr. Miller ? Mr. Miller. My official position is that of financial clerk. The Chairman. At the Carlisle School ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. As such clerk do you keep the records of the ath- letic association? Mr. Miller. I do. The Chairman. What is that association? Is it a corporation? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; it is a corporation, consisting of the employees and the pupils who are entitled to wear the "C." The Chairman. How many are there ? Mr. Miller. I do not know. I do not know what the requirements are. The Chairman. Do you know any pupils who are members of the corporation ? Mr. Miller. Practically all the players, I think, are. The Chairman. Who are the officers of the corporation ? Mr. Miller. The officers are Mr. Warner, president; myself, as secretary and treasurer; we two together with Mr. Friedman compose the executive committee. The Chairman. The athletic association is kept separate and apart from the school, I believe, in a way ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; that is, the accounts. The Chairman. That is what I mean. Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How are the accounts kept and what records do you keep ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1115 Mr. Miller. I keep them in regular ledger form. This is the ledger. ?r he £ HAIRMA o- Ho ^ } on S have y° u been keeping this account? Mr. Miller. Since February 9, 1907. ?] le , ( i- HAIRMAN - You do ail ttle wor k on the books yourself? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You have made all the entries in the ledger since that time ? b Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Just explain briefly how you keep the accounts of receipts and expenditures. Mr. Miller (indicating). Credits are taken up in this column, the gams on the nghthand side here; and the expenditures are written in here on the lefthand side, all by check. There is nothing paid out except by check. Those are the check numbers, and this is the payee's name that appears here. The Chairman. And the checks are your vouchers ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You use them as receipts, of course ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. In most cases we have receipted bills in addition to the checks. The Chairman. You take itemized accounts ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. So as to show what enters into the expenditure as indicated by the check ? Mr. Miller. That is it. The Chairman. Where do you keep your account ? In a bank ? Mr. Miller. In the Farmers Trust Company, Carlisle. The Chairman. What are the sources of income to this fund ? How is the fund obtained ? Mr. Miller. The main source is the proceeds derived from the games — football games, and lacrosse and basketball. The Chairman. How do your annual accounts run ? From what dates ? Do you run by the calendar or by the school year ? Mr. Miller. Neither. It all just runs right along. The Chairman. When do you strike a balance ? Mr. Miller. At the end of each month I strike a balance, and the ■ balance is certified to by an auditor. Well, the committee is com- posed of Mr. Ray, Mr. Warner, and Mr. Friedman, but recently it has dwindled down to Mr. Ray, an attorney of Carlisle, who audits my accounts monthly and certifies the fact on my ledger. The Chairman. Does Mr. Ray render any other services as attor- ney other than services as auditor? Mr. Miller. He did during the incorporation. The Chairman. I mean since the association was organized. Mr. Miller. No, sir. The Chairman. What is he paid ? Mr. Miller. $100 a year. The Chairman. Quarterly ? Mr. Miller. $25 quarterly. The Chairman. What does he do ? What does his work consist of ? Mr. Miller. Simply verifying my accounts. The Chairman. I know, but how does he verify them ? 1116 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Miller. He takes the statements we get from the games, verifies the receipts and other moneys that are taken up. There are other minor entries, such as trunks that are purchased from this fund and kept in the storehouse and sold. That money comes back. And at one time umbrellas for the pupils were handled that way. He verifies all the receipts and takes the cancelled checks and checks them off, and obtains the outstanding checks each month and com- pares my balance with the bank balance. The Chairman. He does that every month ? Mr. Miller. He does that each month. The Chairman. What day of the month does he usually do that ? Mr. Miller. As soon as I have the accounts ready for him, usually within two or three days after the close of the month. The Chairman. How long does it require him to do it ? Mr. Miller. I should say not more than an hour. The Chairman. He comes out to your office, or do you take your books to him ? Mr. Miller. He comes here. The Chairman. What was the total income from the games- football, basketball, and other sports — chargeable to the athletic fund for the year 1913 ? Can you tell me that? Mr. Miller. Not exactly. I could approximately. The Chairman. The book would show? Mr. Miller. The book will show, certainly; yes, sir. The Chairman. What do you think it would amount to ? Mr. Miller. I should say between $20,000 and $25,000. The Chairman. For the year 1913 ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What charges are paid out of this fund? How are the expenditures governed ? Who regulates what shall be paid out of it? Mr. Miller. Anything except transportation charges or anything that Mr. Warner looks after ■ — the others usually come to the super- intendent, who passes on them, and I write the check, and Mr. Warner signing it, that gives the approval of all three members of the execu- tive committee. The Chairman. Do you yourself sign checks ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; as treasurer, and Mr. Warner as president. The Chairman. He countersigns them as presid nt? Mr. Miller. We both sign them; yes, sir. The Chairman. The superintendent 0. K.'s the accounts or bills? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And you draw the checks, and the coach — what is his official position ? Mr. Miller. He is the coach, the athletic director. The Chairman. The athletic director countersigns the checks. How have the expenditures been running with reference to the income of the fund ? They have a balance each year ? Mr. Miller. Oh, yes; they have had a balance each year, excepting one year I recall we ran short when there was a thousand dollars advanced by Mr. Warner and Mr. Friedman. Just now there is a surplus of $25,000. The Chairman. You have produced* here and presented to tho commission what appears to be stub check books, numbered from CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1117 1 to 7„; inclusive. These books appear to be the stubs of the checks you nave drawn Mr. Miller. Drawn since the date I have given. The Chairman. Since you hrst became treasurer « Mr. Miller Well, I was treasurer of this fund before this date but it was not kept m this way. The funds were kept in another The Chairman. From what date is this ? Mr. Miller. This date is from 1907, February 9. The Chairman. So that for every expenditure you have made vou have the checks paid and also the stub of the check ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And in many instances you itemized statements of account s Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. So that you can tell what payments were made for any month, to whom they were made, and for what ? Mr. Miller. In every instance; yes, sir. The Chairman. Sunning over some of these accounts, I want to ask you about some of the expenditures. Who is Mr. Hugh Miller ? Mr. Miller. He is an attorney in Carlisle whose main work is that of newspaper reporting. The Chairman. I see here under date of January, 1908, a check No. 552, "Camera, $140.68, for Mr. Miller." Was that a moving picture camera ? Mr. Miller. No, sir. It was a camera that was purchased for him to take pictures of games. It was a large box camera. The Chairman. Then under the same date, January, 1908, check No. 578 Representative Carter. Where is that camera now ? Mr. Miller. In his possession. He always has had it. Representative Carter. Is he a member of the association ? Mr. Miller. He is not. He is a newspaper man. The Chairman. I see also a check, No. 578, to Hugh Miller, $100, and No. 579 Mr. Miller. No. 578 is Shoemaker, isn't it ? The Chairman. Well, 580 was to whom ? Mr. Miller. To Wallace Denny. The Chairman. No. 578 was to Hugh Miller? Mr. Miller. Oh; to Dr. Shoemaker for additional services. The Chairman. Who is Mr. G. M. Diffenderfer ? Mr. Miller. I would like to explain in regard to that $100 in favor of myself, if there is any exception to it. The Chairman. I do not know that there is any exception to it. While attention has been called to it, we have not raised any question about it. Mr. Miller. That came about this way: During Gen. Pratt's time he came in the office one day and told me he was going to pay me $100 additional salary for athletic services. I had practically written the history of the Carlisle School in a card system. If you wanted to find a pupil's record you had to refer to probably 100 different places throughout the book. I decided to put in a card system and arrange the cards by tribes for pupils no longer connected with the school, and those that were I arranged alphabetically. The old general appre- ciated that very much, and he gave me $100 additional that year. 1118 CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The next year, rather than have me fall down, he paid it again. In both cases it was paid from the charity fund, or emergency fund, and thereafter each year I received that amount until those funds were abolished, and then from this fund. It was always considered a part of the salary. The Chairman. Why was it paid out of the athletic funds ? Mr. Miller. Because those other funds had gone out of existence. The Chairman. The athletic fund, as a matter of fact, is a kind of Mr. Miller. A cure for all diseases. The Chairman. A good many things are paid out of the athletic fund that have no relation to athletics ? Mr. Miller. Yes. The Chairman. In that connection, what other items do you know of that are payable out of the athletic fund that are not directly con- nected with athletics? Do you pay any employees who are also receiving Government salaries? Mr. Miller. Yes; that item just above these to Dr. Shoemaker. That was for his services in accompanying the teams, as I understood it. The Chairman. If he accompanied the teams on their expeditions, that might be considered directly connected with the athletic work. Do you pay Mrs. E. H. Foster ? Mr. Miller. Recently ? Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much does she receive ? Mr. Miller. She gets $15 per month for looking after the Y. W. C. A. work. I do not know her salary. She is a teacher. The Chairman. Mr. E. L. Mann is another, I believe, who is a teacher, and he receives $15 a month? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir, he was paid up until last fall. The Chairman. Has that been discontinued? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Why? Mr. Miller. I believe he was relieved from the work. He had charge of the Y. M. C. A. work. The Chairman. You receive a salary as financial clerk, and in addition to that you receive from the athletic fund $35 a month for keeping these accounts? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Mr. Dietz receives a salary, too, as Indian art assistant, and gets a salary as assistant coach, does he not? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; he does. The Chairman. How much does he get as assistant coach ? Mr. Miller. I really do not know the amount, unless you have made a note of it there. Inspector Linnen. About $500 each year. Mr. Miller. I think that is it. The Chairman. I asked you a moment ago about the item for Mr. Diffenderfc-r. January 8 he appears to have received $20 salary. What is that for ? Mr. Miller. At that time he had charge of the afternoon services in the chapel. The Chairman. Is he a minister ? Mr. Miller. He was a Lutheran minister in town. CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1119 The Chairman. What salary was paid him « Mr Miller. He got $5 for each service— $5 a Sunday. Since that time it has been divided up among all the ministers of the town and they get $5 per service. The Chairman. How many ministers have been paid for that service s r Mr Miller. I believe all of them. All the ministers in town take their turn at takmg charge. The Chairman. Why is that ? Mr. Miller. I could not say, sir. The Chairman. You have nothing to do with that ? Who makes that arrangement ? Mr. Miller. The superintendent. The Chairman. An arrangement is made, then, that every minis- ter in town gets an afternoon in his turn, for which he receives $5 for his services ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who did you say Hugh Miller is ? Is he related to you? Mr. Miller. He is not related to me. The Chairman. He is in the newspaper business ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is he on a local newspaper ? Mr. Miller. I think not. The Chairman. Is he a correspondent for papers ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. He appears to have received generally $200 a year during the last two or three years for services. What kind of services does he render ? Mr. Miller. Nothing more than sending out reports about the games. The Chairman. Look at the check No. 1183, January 2, 1909. It appears he received $50 at that time. What was that for ? Mr. Miller. I do not recall that item. Here is my record. I did not know at that time, and I do not know yet. The Chairman. I see you have an interrogation mark there on that stub under date of January 2, 1909. What does that mean? Mr. Miller. I do not know what it was for. The Chairman. You were not furnished information at the time as to what it was for, and you made that memorandum ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You do not know what it was for ? Mr. Miller. No, sir. The Chairman. By check No. 2112, under date of September 19, 1910, it appears that Hugh Miller received $100 for advertising. Mr. Miller. It is probably for the same purpose. The Chairman. You mean for sending out news ? Jux Milt eti Y"ps sir The Chairman. Now, by check No. 2231, October 31, 1910 Mr. Miller. On No. 2112 the stub is marked, "Advance on account of advertising." The Chairman. What other advertising did the team do ? Mr. Miller. Now, there were several games that he advertised and got a percentage from the game. I do not recall that this was just 1120 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. one of those occasions or not. It probably was, on account of being marked here ''account of advertising." The Chairman. Do you know what he did? Mr. Miller. He passed bills about town and had placards printed, etc. The Chairman. Now, turn to check No. 2231, October 31, 1910. The. total of that check was $1,509.22. Mr. Miller. That is in my favor. I had charge of a game that was played at Wilkes-Barre, and this is reimbursement for my ex- penses there. In other words, that is the total expenses that I paid out, and this is reimbursing me. The Chairman. Mr. Miller did not get any of that ? Mr. Miller. No, sir; I personally received nothing. Inspector Linnen. Your bills show that Mr. Miller got $300 of that. The Chairman. You have an itemized bill of that expenditure, and you say now that Mr. Miller received $300 ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. I recall that now. The Chairman. Now, by check No. 2215, under date of October 29, 1910, I find another item of $295.65. What is that for? Mr. Miller. I believe that is the balance on the same account, settlement in full. The Chairman. Was that for one game ? Mr. Miller. I believe it was, to the best of my recollection. The Chairman. Now, by check No. 2812, 1-6-1912, I find another item of $150 to Hugh R. Miller for services. Mr. Miller. That was not in connection with any special game. It was the amount paid him for the season's work. The check following it The Chairman. What work did he do during the season ? That is what I want. Mr. Miller. I think that was simply newspaper work, without anything special. The Chairman. What kind of work? Can you inform us about what he is expected to do ? Mr. Miller. I do not know what he was requested to do, if that is what you mean. All I know that he did was to send out matter for the papers that he represents. The Chairman. That was published as news, was it not, as a matter of fact? Mr. Miller. Yes. The Chairman. What association did he represent? Does he represent the Associated Press? Does he represent the Scripps- McRae ? Mr. Miller. I do not know. I was informed that he corresponded with probably as many as 200 papers, but whether that is true or not I could not say. The Chairman. The probability is that he would represent an association of newspapers, and what I am trying to find out is what association it is. Mr. Miller. I do not know. The Chairman. Who is Mr. J. L. Martin ? Mr. Miller. That was his assistant at that time. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1121 The Chairman. I find by check No. 2813 under the same date as the last check mentioned to Mr. Miller, Mr. Martin was paid $150 What was that for ? Mr. Miller. That was the same class of work, he being Mr. Mil- ler's assistant. The Chairman. By check No. 3174, dated December 3, 1912, it appears that Mr. Miller received $150 as correspondent. Is that the same kind of work ? Mr. Miller. The same thing. The Chairman. And under the same date, by check No. 3175 you paid Mr. J. L. Martin, as correspondent, $150. Mr. Miller. The same thing. The Chairman. Do you know anything about how those accounts, the correctness of those accounts, is arrived at? How are the amounts determined ? Mr. Miller. I do not know. The Chairman. Do you know whether he is on a salary — who o.k.'s these accounts ? Mr. Miller. The superintendent o.k.'s them. The Chairman. Now, by check No. 3571 under date of November 2, 1913, there is an item of $200 to Hugh R. Miller, of which $100 went to Mr. Miller and $100 to Mr. Martin. Mr. Miller. That is the same thing. The Chairman. Then by check No. 3578, 12-2-13, there appears to have been another check issued to the same Mr. Miller for $100. Mr. Miller. That was the same thing. The $200 and the $100 taken together made the $300 for that year. The Chairman. Now, let us look at some items of this account uhat relate to Mr. Friedman, the superintendent. Check No. 1181, under date of January 20, 1909, appears to have been issued to Mr. Friedman for expenses to Washington, in the sum of $70.90. On what theory were the expenses of the superintendent paid to Washington paid out of the athletic fund ? Mr. Miller. It was paid at his request, he submitting a bill for that amount. The Chairman. What I am trying to find out is why he required you to pay that out of the athletic fund. What was he doing in .Washington for the athletic association? What was his rule about that, if you know whether he had a rule, Mr. Miller ? Maybe you can explain the whole thing by a general statement. I see here a great many items of expense for Mr. Friedman to Washington charged to the athletic fund and paid out of it. Now, if you can make a general statement as to the theory upon which that was done, I would be glad. Mr. Miller. I could not tell that. The Chairman. You do not undertake to pass on that ? Mr. Miller. No, sir; he submitted the statements and I wrote the check. The Chairman. Without question ? Mr. Miller. Without question, and Mr. Warner signed them. Representative Stephens. Who O. K'd the statements? Mr. Miller. Mr. Friedman. I attach a little slip to the bills, re- questing authority to pay them, and he signs those slips. I have 35601— pt 11—14 11 1122 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. those slips in all cases on those bills, which are kept on a Shannon file in numerical order. , The Chairman. Further than that you were not charged with the duty of auditing his accounts ? Mr. Miller. Oh, no. The Chairman. He audited his own accounts? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, I find check No. 1534, under date of Sep- tember 4, 1909, expenses to Washington, $16. Mr. Miller. That is marked, "Expenses to Washington, $16." The Chairman. I am going to call your attention to a large number of items of the same character, and you may verify them all at once. Check No. 1633, October 28, 1909, expenses to Washington, $87. That is correct, is it? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then, check No. 1806, January 29, 1910, expenses to Washington, $27. Mr. Miller. Eight. The Chairman. Check No. 2001, May 24, 1910, expenses to Hamp- ton, $16. Mr. Miller. Hampton and Tuskegee Institute, $16. Eight. The Chairman. Check No. 2016, January 28, 1910, expenses to Philadelphia, Pa., $17. Mr. Miller. Eight. The Chairman. Mileage books, $40. Mr. Miller. What date is that ? The Chairman. It appears here. Mr. Miller. That is for $17. That is right. At the close of each month I pay the bill to the Cumberland Valley Eailroad Co., and the mileage books are included in that. The Chairman. Do you know what amount of mileage books you bought for Mr. Friedman ? Mr. Miller. Not exactly. There are eight. Inspector Linnen. There are a lot more besides those. The Chairman. Just give the dates. Mr. Miller. March 3, 1910, one book, $20; July 15, 1910, one book, $20; October 23, 1911, one book, $20; July 31, 1911, one book; September 11, 1912, one book; September 21, 1912, one book; June 25, 1913, one book; November 14, 1913, one book. The Chairman. A memorandum furnished me here is a receipt under date of February 19, 1910, "To one mileage book, No. 125135, to Superintendent Friedman, $20." That is correct, is it? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, I also hold in my hand a receipt under date of July 31, 1911, "one mileage ticket (Mr. Friedman), $20; Cum- berland Valley Eailroad." Is that correct too ? Mr. Miller. That is one we just mentioned. That is correct. The Chairman. I also hold a receipt under date of October 23, 1911, "mileage ticket for Mr. Friedman, $20." That has also been mentioned and is correct ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Under date of September 11, 1912, "one mileage ticket, Mr. Friedman, $20; Cumberland Valley Eailroad." That, too, has been mentioned, I believe, and is correct? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1323 Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Under date of June 25, 1913 "mileae-e ticket tnv Mr. Friedman, $20." That is correct, is it ? g Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. + . Tt e Chairman. Under date of November 14, 1913, "mileage ticket for Mr. Friedman," with others in the same receipt $20 Thlt is correct, is it? ' ' ' Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have you assisted and cooperated with Inspector Linnen in checking up these mileage accounts charged to the athletic association on account of Mr. Friedman ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You have also assisted him, I believe, in checking up his accounts of expenses and expenditures as superintendent o? the school, have you not? Mr. Miller. Government vouchers ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have you also gone through the accounts in the office of the auditor of the Cumberland Valley Eailroad and checked the items there with reference to trips made by Mr. Friedman to ascertain what mileage was in fact used in connection with his accounts as superintendent and special disbursing agent ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. Both the Cumberland Valley and the Pennsylvania. The Chairman. Is it true or not that your investigation as stated disclosed that Mr. Friedman was furnished with these mileage books and used them on these trips to Washington, and at the same time charged the expenses as railroad fare in ms accounts as superintend- ent against the Government? Mr. Miller. Some of them. The Chairman. Which ones ? Mr. Miller. Mileage books Nos. 125135, 125300 The Chairman. Now, will you mark them ? There are only three Mr. Miller (continuing). And 923319, I believe The Chairman. Let us make sure of that. Mr. Miller. I have made a memorandum now, and can give it to you: 125135, 125300, 923319. The Chairman. Just take your memorandum there and state what you checked with reference to those mileage books and what the books in the office of the auditor of the Cumberland Valley Railroad and the Pennsylvania Railroad disclosed with reference to those charges. Mr. Miller. Book No. 125300 was used on Cumberland Valley train 13, March 5, 1910, Harrisburg. Allow me to start again: Book No. 125135, used on train No. 4, March 3, 1910, Conductor McCleary, Carlisle to Harrisburg, 38 miles, two passengers. Book No. 125300, used on train No. 13, March 5, 1910, Harrisburg to Carlisle, 38 miles, lifted, two passengers, Conductor Snodgrass. Book No. 125300, train No. 4, March 17, 1910, Carlisle to Harris- burg, Conductor Lynn, 19 miles, lifted, one passenger. Book No. 125300, train No. 11, March 18, 1910, Harrisburg to Car- lisle, number of passengers 1, mileage 19, Conductor Wetzel. 1124 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mileage book 923319, train No. 8, October 23, 1911, Carlisle to Har- risburg, two passengers, mileage 38, Conductor Lynn. Over tbe Pennsylvania Railroad I found the following, upon checking the auditor's accounts: Mileage book 125135, March 3, 1910, train No. 64, Conductor W. D. Schubert, Harrisburg to Phila- delphia, two passengers, 196 miles; beginning 805, ending 1,000. Book No. 125300, same date, train, conductor, and points, 12 miles; beginning 1, ending 12. Book No. 125300, March 3, 1910, train No. 124, Conductor C. W. Parks, Philadelphia to New York, two passengers, number of miles 180; beginning 13, ending 192. Book 125300, March 5, 1910, train No. 7; A. L. Priser, conductor; between New York and Philadelphia, two passengers, 180 miles; mileage beginning 193, ending 372. Same book, 125300, March 25, 1910, train 27, Conductor H. W. Harding, Philadelphia to Harrisburg, two passengers, number of miles 208; beginning 373, ending 580. Same book, 125300, March 17, 1910, train No. 20, Conductor A. B. Wherley, Harrisburg to Baltimore, one Dassenger, 84 miles; mileage, 638,721. Same book, 125300, March 17, 1910, train 321, Conductor C. T. Sparks, Harrisburg to Washington, one passenger, 40 miles; mileage 722 to 761. Same book, 125300, March 18, 1910, train 320, Conductor J. W. Smith, Washington to Baltimore, one passenger, 40 miles; 762 to 801. Same book, 125300, March 18, 1910, train 21, Conductor J. H. Mill- stead, Baltimore to Harrisburg, one passenger, 84 miles; 802 to 885. Mileage book 923319, October 23, 1911, train No. 8, Conductor J.B. Hunt, Harrisburg to Baltimore, two passengers, 168 miles; beginning 38, ending 206. Same book, 923319, October 23, 1911, train No. 11, Conductor B. F. Dennis, Baltimore to Washington, two passengers, 80 miles; mileage 120 to 206. The Chairman. Then it appears from the records in the office of the auditors of these two railroads r.nd the authenticated copies of the accounts of Mr. Friedman as superintendent and special disbursing agent of the Indian Industrial School, that on these occasions and trains, while the mileage books Avhich are paid for out of the athletic fund were actually used, he also charged the Government in his expense account for his railroad fare ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I have a memorandum in my hand showing other expense items paid to Mr. Friedman from the athletic fund, which I am informed you have checked on your books. Check No. 2615, July 11, 1911, expenses to New York, $22. Is that correct? Mr. Miller. Right. The Chairman. Check No. 2622, July 28, same year, expenses to Washington, $17. Mr. Miller. Right. The Chairman. Check No. 2747, November 20, 1911, expenses to Philadelphia, Pa., $55. Mr. Miller. Right. The Chairman. Check No. 2800, July 26, 1911, expenses to Boston, CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1125 Mr. Miller. Eight. wl h hi n C g rn R m20 CheCk N °- 2848 ' JanUary 27 ' 1912 ' 6X P enSeS t0 Mr. Miller. Right. The Chairman. Check No. 3138, November 14, 1912, expenses to Washington, $75.65. Mr. Miller. Right. The Chairman. Check No. 2929, April 9, 1912, expenses, $58.60. What was that for ? Mr. Miller. My memorandum is marked "expenses." The Chairman. Do you know whom it was paid to 8 Mr. Miller. To Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. Do you know what it is for? Have vou an itemized statement of that ? Mr. Miller. I may have; I have not here. The Chairman. When you go back to the office, will you take a little time and look for that? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Check No. 3138, November 14, 1912, expenses to Washington, $75.65. That is correct, is it? Mr. Miller. Correct. The Chairman. Check No. 3139, November 15, 1912, expenses to Philadelphia, Pa., $69.20. Mr. Miller. Not paid to Mr. Friedman direct, but to Bellevue- Stratford Hotel. The Chairman. Was there an item in there of $10 for theater? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I notice another memorandum there, additional expenses to Philadelphia, Pa., $22, in the same account. Mr, Miller. That is right. The Chairman. Check No. 3508, October 4, 1913, hotel bill at Philadelphia, Friedman, $54.05. Mr. Miller. Right. The Chairman. The face of those checks would not show the actual dates he was in Washington ? Mr. Miller. The bill shows. The Chairman. Turn to check No. 3311, April 9, 1913, $102.70. What was that for ? Mr. Miller. That check book is in my office. The Chairman. Look at the memorandum there and see if you can tell. Mr. Miller. That was for entertaining guests during commence- ment. The Chairman. By whom ? Mr. Miller. By Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. Was there an itemized statement of that presented ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Will you furnish that ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I find five checks as follows: No. 1499 — maybe you can just tell from this— No. 1499, August 31, 1909, $90. No. 1533, September 2, 1909, $60. No. 3025, August 10, 1910, $60. No. 3028, August 10, 1912, $60. No. 3188, December 9, 1912, $7.20. What were all those checks issued for ? 1126 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Miller. For the purpose of insurance on the buildings. The Chairman. What buildings ? Mr. Miller. The athletic buildings. The Chairman. The Government does not carry any insurance on the buildings, I believe ? Mr. Miller. I could not say. The Chairman. Would it not be paid for through you? Mr. Miller. Mr. Warner keeps the accounts. The Chairman. That is on the athletic buildings ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I think it is all on the athletic buildings. The Chairman. I find a number of items of $2 for the arrest of each Indian boy or pupil found in Carlisle without a pass, paid to the chief of police John L. Boyer, who appears to have received various checks aggregating quite an amount for such arrests. Is there an arrangement whereby the athletic fund is required to pay $2 for every boy anested? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; when the boys have no money in the bank. The Chairman. Do you know upon what theory that is done ? Mr. Miller. To prevent the boys going into town without a permit. The Chairman. Why should all that be charged to the athletic fund, if you know of any reason? Mr. Miller. I think I do. The police would not be interested in de- taining the boy if they received $2 sometimes and not on every occa- sion. When a boy has no money in the bank the police would be out the cost of the arrest; so the athletic association is called upon to pay it when the boys have no money in the bank. The Chairman. How is the amount of $2 arrived at as proper? Mr. Miller. I could not say. The Chairman. As a matter of fact they do not get anything like that when they arrest on a warrant, do they ? I do not know what the statutes of Pennsylvania are, but in many of the States with whose statutes I am familiar the fees of sheriffs for making an arrest would not be anything like that. Anyway, that is just an arbitrary arrange- ment that the superintendent has effected with the chief of police, and is designed to keep the boys in and prevent them from stealing away ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have loans or advances been made to boys on the football teams at vauous times? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. $200 appears to have been advanced to Albert Exendine. Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And $300 to Louis Tewanana, and also $50? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. There are other items of that kind. Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are those loans or advances iepaid, or in the nature of a bonus ? Mr. Miller. Those were not repaid. The Chairman. How did you pay them out — upon what authority ? You do not just voluntarily make the payments, I assume. I will say in this connection that your books show very clearly indeed, even to a man who is not an expert accountant. CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1127 Mr. Miller. They are authorized by the superintendent, and, as I said before, the bills are approved by the president and by signing the check. The Chairman. Have you checked up to see how much was paid to the football boys in 1908 ? Mr. Miller. I have. The Chairman. It appears from the memorandum furnished me that on December 10, 1908, the total amount paid on this account was $4,283. Mr. Miller. That was the amount of the check. The Chairman. That was to pay football boys, was it ? Mr. Miller. Yes. The Chairman. I find also by check No. 508, December 4, there is an item of $3,667.63. "What account was that paid from, and what was it for ? Mr. Miller. From the athletic account, and for the boys. The Chairman. For the football boys ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What other advances in the nature of bonuses are usually made to the football boys ? What other allowances ? Mr. Miller. Since the practice of paying the money was abolished, they have been allowed an overcoat and a suit of clothing each year. The Chairman. And that is paid out of the athletic fund ? Mr. Miller. They are given orders on the merchants of town to secure this clothing, and the bills are paid from this fund. The boys get no money. The Chairman. It appears that by check No. 1051, November 21, 1908, an item of $15 was paid to the Postal Telegraph Co. What was that for ? Mr. Miller. For election returns. The Chairman. I believe the business department and the academic buildings were constructed out of the athletic funds, or do you know ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I think the most of it. The Chairman. That cost approximately $7,000, didn't it? Mr. Miller. Those were Mr. Warner's estimates. The Chairman. The material for the building was paid for out of'the athletic fund, and the work done by the Government ? Mr Mjller Ygs sit. The Chairman. 1 see a check here, No. 3394, June 25, 1913, to George Walker, sheriff, and another Mr. Miller. One moment. The Chairman. George Walker, sheriff, $10. What was that for? Mr. Miller. That was for arresting a girl in Chambersburg, as I recall. The Chairman. Have you an itemized statement of that ? Mr ]\£lLL, fl barter Representative Stephens. We can not tell without the charter and the by-laws. 1144 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM B. GRAY. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. Are you connected with this school? Mr. Gray. Yes, sir; I am the farmer. The Chairman. How long have you been serving in that con- nection? Mr. Gray. As farmer about eight years next spring. The Chairman. What are your duties, and how are they defined ? Mr. Gray. My duties are to attend strictly to my own farm, as a rule, but I am required oftentimes to go over on the other farm and help. The Chairman. How many farms are there ? Mr. Gray. Two. The Chairman. Where are they located with reference to this school ? Mr. Gray. The farm that I am on is just northeast of the school about three-fourths of a mile, and the other is just down here south- east of the school. The Chairman. How many acres ? Mr. Gray. The campus takes up part of the farm. There is sup- posed to be 199 acres. The Chairman. How many acres in the farm then exclusive of that ? Mr. Gray. 176 acres. The Chairman. What is the character of the land ? Mr. Gray. It is limestone land. ' It is not very fertile; it has been farmed pretty hard. The Chairman. Do you know how long it has been under cultiva- tion, Mr. Gray ? Mr. Gray. Yes, sir; it has been under cultivation for a great many years. The Chairman. How long have you had charge of it ? Mr. Gray. Eight years. The Chairman. Do you do anything to build up the land? Mr. Gray. We get very little barnyard manure, and we have to depend largely, almost altogether, on commercial fertilizer, and we do not get as much of that as we should have. The Chairman. What crops did you grow last year? Mr. Gray. We had corn, oats, potatoes The Chairman. How many acres of each, approximately? Mr. Gray. Corn, last year we had 29 acres. The Chairman. How much did you grow? Mr. Gray. One thousand five hundred and sixty-seven bushels. The Chairman. What was done with that corn ? Mr. Gray. That was all used here at the school. What has not been used is down at the farm in the crib. The Chairman. How is it used ? Mr. Gray. Fed to the horses and stock. The Chairman. How many horses are there on the farm ? Mr. Gray. I have eight head of horses and mules on the farm. The Chairman. How many acres of wheat did you have in? Mr. Gray. I had 48 acres of wheat in last year. The Chairman. How much of that did you grow ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 114:5 Mr. Gray. I had 973 bushels. The Chairman. What was done with that ? T v^'t^l" \ h f e , was "J 1 hundred and some bushels of that sold I kept 150 bushels for seed and the rest of the 100 that I did not use for seed was used for chicken feed, and the rest of that was used to pa ^ n man that freshed the wheat. He took wheat for his pay 1 i' HAIE ^ r If ' How man y acres of oats did you have ? Mr. Gray. We had 21 £ acres last year. The Chairman. How many bushels of oats did you grow? Mr. Gray. Seven hundred and ten bushels, I believe The Chairman. How much potatoes ? Mr. Gray. One thousand one hundred and eighty-nine bushels Senator Lane. How many acres ? Mr. Gray. It was between 10 and 12 acres— about 11 Senator Lane. And averaged 100 bushels to the acre* Mr. Gray. Almost; yes, sir. The Chairman. What kind do you grow ? Mr. Gray. Why, we grow Rural New Yorker. The Chairman. What did you do with those potatoes ? _ Mr Gray. They are all used up here at the school, with the excep- tion that I have 120 bushels in my cellar at the farm for seed. The Chairman. How many chickens have you ? Mr. Gray. I carry 90 on my quarterly report. The Chairman. Is that the number you have ? Mr. Gray. I raised 195, I believe, and I killed 106 for Christmas. The Chairman. That is for the pupils ? Mr. Gray. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How do you cultivate the land under your control ? Mr. Gray. In regard to what do you mean ? The Chairman. By what labor ? Mr. Gray. It is all done by the boys here at the school. The Chairman. How many are detailed for that purpose ? Mr. Gray. Well, quite often there is not enough detailed to do the work. It depends upon what I am doing. I had a great deal of trouble last summer here. The Chairman. Do you have difficulty in getting enough help 1 Mr. Gray. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Your idea is, I suppose, to run a kind of demonstra- tion farm there and show the boys how to farm ? Mr. Gray. That is what we are supposed to do. The Chairman. Are you doing much in that line ? Mr. Gray. Well, we try to do all we can, but we are supposed to raise crops at the same time. We are supposed to teach the boys, but we can not raise crops and teach the boys if we have to do the work ourselves. If we get plenty of help it makes all the difference in the world, but when we can not get the help, and it is no use to go to the superintendent Senator Lane. Why not go to the superintendent ? Mr. Gray. Well, if you go to him he says to go to the disciplina- rian. Of course, I have been to the disciplinarian in the first place — the commandant, I suppose I should say. Senator Lane. Do you mean to imply by that that the boys are put on the farm as a kind of punishment ? 1146 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Gray. They certainly are. If the boys are good for anything he is allowed to go to the shops, but the boys we work with as a rule are boys that have failed in the country, and we get them and work with them on the farm. Just as soon as we report they are good, as a rule, they are taktn away from us. The Chairman. Then, as a matter of fact, the management here is making no effort to r< ally develop these boys into farmers, are they? Mr. Gray. I can not see that th'.y are. The Chairman. You do not understand, being in charge of that farm, that that is a part of the policy at all? Mr. Gray. They take a boy away from you when he gets an interest in the work, and put in there boys who have made failures in the country, and it looks to me that it is in the nature of a penalty for a boy to have to go on the farm. And the better ones would reluctantly go there; they look at it that way, too. The Chairman. If you had a larger and proper detail you think you could give some instructions to the boys that would encourage them to become farmers? Mr. Gray. Now, I have been here for a good many years, and as a rule I do not have any trouble to get along with any of the boys as as long as I have the number I ask for. But when you can not get the number it creates a disturbance all around if you try to get as much work out of a few boys as you would like to get done. Senator Lane. How many do you think you ought to have ? Mr. Gray. In harvest time or time of that sort I ought to have down on my farm anywhere from 9 to 12 boys. Senator Lane. How many acres have you? Mr. Gray. One hundred and seventy-six acres. The Chairman. Now, in plowing time or seeding time, how many? Mr. Gray. At times like that I generally like to have a boy for each plow. Oftentimes I take a plow myself. We have heretofore had only six head of horses. Senator Lane. How many boys do you get? Mr. Gray. Why, two, and three, and four in times of that kind. Senator Lane. I mean in the time of seeding. Mr. Gray. Seeding time it is like that. Senator Lane. What other help do you have ? Mr. Gray. There is no other help. Senator Lane. Why do you confine your attention to corn and wheat when this school has hundreds of students who need vegetables ? Why don't you raise vegetables ? Mr. Gray. This farm down here always used to be a truck farm, and they had so much trouble getting anybody to do the work. Senator Lane. What kind of work ? Mr. Gray. Hoeing. It takes considerable work. The man they had there did not seem to be able to manage it, so he cut it out and said he was going to raise the truck hereafter on this little tract down here. Senator Lane. How much have you got in truck ? Mr. Gray. I suppose 3 or 4 acres down here that they can truck. Senator Lane. I mean how much do you truck? Mr. Gray. There is no trucking done on the farms at all. Senator Lane. Where do you get your garden stuff? Mr. Gray. Right down here by the coal house. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1147 Senator Lane.. All off of 3 or 4 or 5 acres ? Mr. Gray. Yes, sir; outside of the potatoes. Senator Lane. The potatoes, you raised how many bushels ' Mr. Gray. 1,189 bushels. Senator Lane. That is not enough to do the school, is it? Mr. Gray. No, sir. Senator Lane. How many should you raise ? Mr. Gray. About 2,000 bushels. Senator Lane. It would not do it, would it ? Mr. Gray. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How many people have you got here ? Mr. Gray. I would judge 800 or 900 pupils now. During the most part of the year there are many of the pupils out in the country. Senator Lane. Carrots, cabbage, onions — how many onions do you raise a year? Mr. Gray. That all comes under the florist over here. Senator Lane. You do not raise any of them? Mr. Gray. You could raise them. I suppose I could raise them. Senator Lane. And parsnips? All good to eat? Mr. Gray. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How did it use to be here five or six or seven years ago ? Were you able to get more boys to help you ? Mr. Gray. Yes. Senator Lane. When did you drop this into a sort of rut here ? Mr. Gray. That has always been done on that farm — not on that farm, but they used to have a farm at Middlesex. Senator Lane. How deep can you plow your land ? Mr. Gray. Eight or nine inches. Senator Lane. Do you disk? Mr. Gray. I have a double-action harrow. Senator Lane. What is your worst pest in the way of weeds ? Mr. Gray. We have a little quack grass there, but that is just in spots. We have Canada thistle, and some years we have wild carrot. Senator Lane. What do you do with Canada thistle? Mr. Gray. We are getting rid of it. We keep it cut off. There are just a few patches. Senator Lane. Is it increasing ? Mr. Gray. No; we do not aim to let it make much growth. Senator Lane. How long does it take to kill it out that way? Mr. Gray. I judge, a long time. Senator Lane. A hundred years ? Mr. Gray. I do not know anything about that, but wo do not aim to let it do much harm. Senator Lane. Are the other farmers here? Mr. Gray. Yes. Senator Lane. You keep about eight horses ? Mr. Gray. Four teams; yes, sir. Senator Lane. What kind of p]ows do you use? Mr. Gray. Twelve-inch Imperial, wide beam. Senator Lane. What is your soil ? Mr. Gray. Limestone. _ Senator Lane. Some clay in it? Mr. Gray. Clay soil. ■ Senator LAne. When do you begin to work on it ( 1148 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Gray. Sometimes in March. Senator Lane. Do you fall sow, or spring? Mr. Gray. Fall. Senator Lane. Does it winter-kill much here? Mr. Gray. No, sir. TESTIMONY OF C. K. BALLARD. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You are the second farmer ? Mr. Ballard. Yes. The Chairman. You have only been here a short time ? Mr. Ballard. Four months. The Chairman. Where did you come from ? Mr. Ballard. I came from Colorado down here. My home is in western New York. The Chairman. Have you had experience in work similar to that which you are now doing ? Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. The Chairman. For how long ? Mr. Ballard. Practically all my life. The Chairman. How many acres are there in the farm you have charge of? Mr. Ballard. This campus cuts off some of it, but I believe there is about 85 acres. The Chairman. How much did you have in actual cultivation this last year ? Mr. Ballard. Very little of it. The north side is in pasture. I should say about 75 to 80 acres. The Chairman. How much of it is in actual cultivation? Mr. Ballard. Eleven acres of alfalfa, about 7 or 8 acres is seeded down to clover and timothy mixed, I think — clover anyhow. The Chairman. Who preceded you in charge of this farm ? Mr. Ballard. Mr. Snyder. The Chairman. When did he leave? Mr. Ballard. He left the day I came. The Chairman. How many head of stock have you there? Mr. Ballard. Two mules and three horses. The Chairman. Any cows. Mr. Ballard. The dairyman has charge of those. The Chairman. Are they on your farm ? Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many cows are there there? Mr. Ballard. Forty-odd head. The Chairman. Have you any chickens on your farm ? Mr. Ballard. No, sir. The Chairman. How many hogs and pigs? Mr. Ballard. One hundred and twelve. That varies greatly. The Chairman. What has been done with those hogs ? Have any of them been sold since you were here ? Mr. Ballard. I killed 5 yesterday, and some in December; the 29th of December, I believe, I killed 2. The Chairman. What was done with the meat from those 7 hogs? Used at the school ? CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1149 Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many have been sold since you have been here ? Mr. Ballard. Ninety-seven. The Chairman. The policy of the administration then is not to use the meat products raised on the farm but to sell them in the market ? Mr. Ballard. Since I have been here. The Chairman. Have you been informed as to why that is so « Mr. Ballard. No, sir. . The Chairman. Who has supervision or control of your operations ? Mr. Ballard. The quartermaster, Mr. Kensler. The Chairman. Have you and he agreed upon a plan of procedure for this year? Mr. Ballard. He told me I was running the farm. The Chairman. Have you agreed what you were going to do this year? Mr. Ballard. Myself; that is all. The Chairman. He leaves that to you ? Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What are you going to do ? What are your plans generally ? Mr. Ballard. My plans have been to keep it on the lines that it was. Mr. Friedman told me the man that had been here before me, his work had been very satisfactory, and he wished me to keep it on the same lines and not go into anything that he had not done ? The Chairman. What is that ? Mr. Ballard. They filled the silo, and raised, with the exception of 9 acres, all potatoes, and the balance of the farm is for the dairy and these horses, with the exception of a few acres of pasture for the hogs. The Chairman. Don't you think it would be a good plan to make a practical demonstration farm out of that and teach some of these boys, especially those who have a disposition to learn it, how to farm? Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, most of these boys are hired out into the country on farms, are they not? Mr. Ballard. I don't know how many; I know there is some. The Chairman. Don't you think it would be for the better inter- ests of the boys to keep them here at the school and teach them how to farm? Don't you think that is better than hiring them out for small salaries ? Mr. Ballard. As far as that was possible. I don't know how many would wish to stay. I think it is the best thing for the boys. The Chairman. How'large is your salary ? Mr. Ballard. $60 a month. The Chairman. What does the other farmer get? Mr. Ballard. I think he gets $65. The Chairman. They are paying here, then, in salaries to farmers about $125 a month and there is practically no demonstration work being done ? Is not that true ? Mr. Ballard. I try to show my detail The Chairman. What does jom detail consist of ? 1150 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Ballard. Usually about four boys — that is, four in the morn- ing and four in the afternoon. The Chairman. Why would it not be a good plan to put enough of this land hi your charge in vegetables, and especially potatoes and crops of that sort, to supply every demand of the school for that char- acter of food ? Mr. Ballard. I do not think this is good potato land. Their yield seems to be about 100 bushels to an acre, which they consider a good yield. In a potato country I should consider 200 a fair yield. The Chairman. You think it would not be profitable, then, to cultivate land in potatoes that wo .-Id not grow more than 100 bush- els to the acre? What do they pay for potatoes here when they buy them? Mr. Ballard. I think the retail price is about $1. Senator Lane. At $1 a bushel for potatoes and 100 bushels to the acre would pay first rate, wouldn't it? Mr. Ballard. Potatoes is rather expensive to raise. The Chairman. Have you investigated to find out the total yield of that arm last year — the value of the total product of the farm you have charge of ? Mr. Ballard. No, sir. They put 12 acres in potatoes The Chairman. As a matter of fact, those 12 acres of potatoes yielded more in value than all the rest of the farm ? Mr. Ballard. They did not get 100 bushels to the acre. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, did not those 12 acres of potatoes yield a greater value than all the rest of the stuff grown on the farm ? Mr. Ballard. I would not go so far as that. It would compare favorably with them. The Chairman. There would be no difficulty in cultivating these farms with skilled labor under your supervision ? Mr. Ballard. No, sir. The Chairman. You could cultivate an area greatly in excess of the area under your charge, with skilled labor, if you had the opportu- nity of doing it ? Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And you could cultivate it in any ordinary crops that would grow in this climate ? Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, what I do not understand is why a man who is in the business of farming does not grasp the idea, without even a suggestion, that if his services are to be valuable to the school he ought to plan first; that the work that is done on the farm ought to be for the instruction of the pupils, and that the crops that are grown there ought to be for the use and benefit of the school. I can not understand the system that seems to prevail of working these lands indifferently and of discouraging rather than encouraging the produc- tion of such food stuffs as may be required. Mr. Ballard. I think the farmers are ready to do this at any time. The Chairman. If you were an expert farmer here for the purpose of teaching farming, don't you think you ought to plan out just what crops you can grow there, how much labor it is going to require to do it, and what instruction may be given to the boys who are in the CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1151 school? You say you have already been instructed to pursue the lines followed by your predecessor? Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Have you ever gone to the superintendent and sug- gested to him that you could get more return for the land if you were allowed to plant other crops ? Mr. Ballard. No, sir. Senator Lane. Have you an idea that if you were left with your hands free you could take the lands you are using now and get a greater return ? Mr. Ballard. I might in a way, but you see there is that dairy. That takes practically the whole farm. Senator Lane. How much milk do you get ? Mr. Ballard. I could not tell you. Senator Lane. How many boys do you use ? Mr. Ballard. I have nothing to do with the dairy. Senator Lane. How much land does the dairy take from you ? Mr. Ballard. With the exception of those 11 acres that they have in potatoes, the balance is all devoted to the dairy. Senator Lane. And you are really cultivating 11 acres of land? Mr. Ballard. There are 11 acres of land devoted to potatoes, and the balance is devoted to the dairy. Senator Lane. How much is that ? Mr. Ballard. Thirty acres, I think. Senator Lane. What do you make ensilage out of ? Mr. Ballard. It was made out of corn; that was before I came. TESTIMONY OF W. J. EYAU. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. How long have you been dairyman of the Carlisle School ? Mr. Ryan. Since the 29th of September of this year. The Chairman. Whom did you succeed? Mr. Ryan. I succeeded a boy who was there. Mr. Hardin was supposed to oversee it, but that boy was put in there to oversee it. The Chairman. Where are you from ? Mr. Ryan. I am from Rapid City, S. Dak. The Chairman. You were transferred here ? Mr. Ryan. No; I was never in the service; I just took an exami- nation. The Chairman. When did you reach here ? Mr. Ryan. About the 27th. I think it was a Sunday morning. I went to work Tuesday morning. The Chairman. Did you have any misunderstanding with tUe superintendent upon your arrival here or any controversy ? Mr. Ryan. Shortly after, I did. The Chairman. Tell us about it . Mr Ryan. I went to work Tuesday morning. Thursday he came down and said I was not getting results from the cows That was three days afterwards. I told him I did not think I had had ^ chance yet as I had only been there three days "Well, he said, the cows are going dry." " Well," I said, "they were pretty dried up 1152 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. when I came." He told me I would have to get better results, and he would give me four days to do it in. The Chairman. How many did he detail to help you to take the milk? Mr. Ryan. I was supposed to have five. The Chairman. Did you have them ? Mr. Ryan. I had them at the start, but they kept dropping off. Some was put in the lockup, some ran away, some was drunk. I generally got down to about three. The Chairman. Were the boys that were required to do the work under you — was that in the nature of discipline or punishment to them ? Mr. Ryan. It seemed to be in the nature. of punishment. The Chairman. It was not done, then, to instruct them or en- courage them in dairying or anything of that sort ? Mr. Ryan. No. I heard the boys tell what they did to be pun- ished. Some was drank, and some ran away, and some would not work at the school. The Chairman. How many cows have you in the dairy ? Mr. Ryan. We have 48 cows and one heifer. The Chairman. What do you do with the milk ? Mr. Ryan. There is about 6 gallons or 10 gallons a day comes down to the school, whole milk; and we separate the other, save the cream, and send the skimmed milk down to the kitchen. The Chairman. Is that milk that is obtained in the dairy used at the school ? Mr. Ryan. Yes, sir; as far as I know. Senator Lane. How many cows do you milk? Mr. Ryan. We are milking 32 now. Senator Lane. How much milk do you get a day ? Mr. Ryan. We get about 40 gallons a day. Senator Lane, is that the average ? Mr. Ryan. Yes — no; that is not all the milk — that is the skimmed milk. We get about 50 to 55 gallons average, the milk I send to the school and the other milk, too. Senator Lane. What kind of cows are you milking ? Mr. Ryan. All kinds mixed up. Some are Durhams, some Here- fords, some Holsteins, and some Jerseys. Representative Carter. What kind of bull have you got ? Mr. Ryan. A little bull, a yearling. Representative Carter. What kind ? Mr. Ryan. A Holstein. We had an old Jersey bull before that, but they are a very poor class of cows. Some have two teats and some have three teats. Senator Lane. Have you any garget among them? Mr. Ryan. Yes. You mean that thick milk? Senator Lane. Yes. Mr. Ryan. Once in a while, some of it. I aim to get it out. Senator Lane. What do you do with your calves ? Mr. Ryan. We butcher them or save some. Senator Lane. How did you make out in the five days ? Did the cows come up on the milk ? Mr. Ryan. No; our feed we had was very poor. Senator Lane. What was it ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1153 Mr. Ryan. It was oat straw, we had then, the oats cut when it was ripe. And we had some alfalfa. But they told us to feed that oats hay, and then the ensilage was very poor at that time. Senator Lane. Did you chop your hay ? Mr. Ryan. No. Senator Lane. What kind of barn have you got? Mr. Ryan. A good barn. Senator Lane. Good drainage? Mr. Ryan. Yes. Senator Lane. Have you any tuberculosis in the herd? Mr. Ryan. Not that I know of. Senator Lane. Have they ever been tested ? Mr. Ryan. Not since I have known them. Senator Lane. Do you keep a record of your milk? Mr. Ryan. Yes. Senator Lane. Do you keep a separate record of each cow ? Mr. Ryan. We did, back awhile, but the boys got to tearing up the sheets. I had a lot of boys that I could not do anything with. I got discouraged, and I could not do anything with them. Senator Lane. So you are not keeping a record now? Mr. Ryan. Not of separate cows now. Representative Stephens. Have you ever asked for better boys ? Mr. Ryan. Yes, sir; a good many times. Representative Stephens. What do they tell you ? Mr. Ryan. They say, "All right; we will attend to it." Representative Stephens. How do they attend to it? Mr. Ryan. They send the same boy over again, or somebody worse, if anything. Representative Stephens. You say the boys get drunk? Mr. Ryan. Yes. Representative Stephens. Have you any idea where they get the whisky ? , Mr. Ryan. Some times right in the saloons. Representative Stephens. Have you ever seen them go into the saloon yourself ? Mr. Ryan. No, sir; only what the boys tell me. One boy told me he went into a saloon. Representative Stephens. When they work in your dairy do they work with the school uniform on or citizen's clothes ? Mr. Ryan. The school uniform part of the time. They wear white clothes when they milk. Representative Stephens. Where do you make your butter * Mr. Ryan. Right there in the milk house adjoining the barn. Representative Stephens. What do you do with the butter you make? Mr. Ryan. We send it to the school. Representative Stephens. Who gets it in the school here ? Mr. Ryan. I deliver it to the quartermaster. Representative Stephens. And the quartermaster then distributes it? Mr Ryan Yes- they generally take it right to the kitchen. Representative Stephens. How much land have you got to run these cows on ? 35601— ft 11—14 13 1154 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Ryan. I do not have any land; I just run the cows, but I get the products from both farms. I get the corn fodder and the oats, and nay, etc. Representative Stephens. Do they have any green meadow to run on ? Mr. Ryan. Regular pasturage ? Yes. Representative Stephens. How large? Mr. Ryan. I judge about 10 or 12 acres, or something like that. Representative Carter. What is the meadow? Mr. Ryan. It is a pasturage where wild grass grows; wild native grass. Representative Carter. Twelve acres is not enough of this native grass for 40 cows, is it ? Mr. Ryan. No. TESTIMONY OF DR. EUGENE A. NOBLE. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. Doctor, your name was handed me by Mi 1 . Wetzel, with those of a number of other gentlemen. He informed me that you were familiar with some of the conditions prevailing in the Carlisle school and an intimate friend of the superintendent. You are the president of Dickinson College ? Dr. Xoble. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have you been at the head of that institution, Doctor ? Dr. Noble. Three years. The Chairman. Are you a native of Pennsylvania ? Dr. Noble. I am not. The Chairman. What State are you from? Dr. Noble. New York State. The Chairman. Have you been connected with school work the greater part of your mature hfe ? Dr. Noble. Yes. The Chairman. Where else have you been ? Dr. Noble. The Women's College of Baltimore, president of the Women's College of Baltimore. The Chairman. You are acquainted with Supt. Friedman, are you? Dr. Noble. Not in the way you represented a few moments ago. The Chairman. Your name was handed to me, with those of three or four other parties on this list — Dr. Allen, and Mr. J. W. Henderson, and the Rev. Mr. Diffenderfer— by Mr. Wetzel, an attorney whom I chanced to meet this morning, who stated they would be glad to appear before the commission to make a statement, and we said we would be glad to have you come. Dr. Noble. That is what I understand, and it is a voluntary statement on the part of these gentlemen who come. They have not been invited by the commission to come and offer testimony concerning certain specific things. Representative Carter. How does the commission know that you know those things ? Dr. Noble. I am not sure that I do. Representative Carter. Then why should we invite you ? CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1155 Dr. Noble. It seems to me thcat if you are here to get information there may be certain collateral things it might be well for you to find out about, but I would not presume to come without the invita- tion of the committee. The Chairman. You are invited to appear, Doctor ; just consider that as final. We want any information you have that will throw any light upon the conditions in Carlisle College, if you desire to submit a statement of facts that are within your knowledge as to that. We want all the information that we can get that is germane, and I had no information from Mr. Wetzel as to any particular state of facts about which you had knowledge. I merely understood you were friendly to the institution Dr. Noble. That is correct. The Chairman. And I also understood that you were a friend of Mr. Friedman, and that Mr. Friedman — at least that Mr. Wetzel thought that Mr. Friedman would be glad to have you here. We would be glad to hear any statement you may make. I do not know what your idea is. You say you were not informed you were invited by the commission. You were invited in that way, and you are invited, and we want all the information we can get. Dr. Noble. Mr. Wetzel called me up and said there was no invita- tion from the commission. He thought it might be well for some of the men of the town to meet the commission and say what they thought about the Indian school. And, as one of the citizens of the town who by virtue of his position is regarded as perhaps contributing public sentiment, I am perfectly willing to come and make such a statement as I can about conditions at the Indian school. I have read no formal charges Senator Lane. Pardon me there. I don't think we understand one another's position. This commission was appointed by Congress to investigate Indian affairs throughout the country. It is a joint commission specially delegated for that purpose. Dr. Noble. I did not know that. Senator Lane. Now, as matters arise, where attention is directed to any particular institution, at the first opportunity that presents itself, at a few hours' notice, we make a trip and look into it. We did not know we were coming here until about an hour before we came. So we are here now to find out all we can, and if you have anything we want to get it from you. It is purely informal; at the same time it is official. You can understand perfectly well it would be very hard to send notice ahead under those circumstances. Representative Carter. We are here on official business, making an investigation of the school, and we are glad to get information from anybody that has information to give; but we have not any way in the world to know whether you have information or not unless you tell us. . in , , The Chairman. Shall I interrogate you, or will you proceed to make a statement, Doctor ? ,11 Dr. Noble. You go ahead, and after you have asked me ques- tions I may want to make a general statement. The Chairman. What opportunities have you had of observing the conditions and the work that is being done at the Carlisle School ? Dr. Noble. I have been a frequent visitor here. The relations between the Indian school and Dickinson College have been intimate 1156 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. since I came to Carlisle. Fundamentally those relations are athletic. There have been times when they were not cordial, but during the last three years they have been very cordial; and in order to show good will, I have been here frequently as a visitor. The Chairman. How often do you think you have been here ? Dr. Noble. Oh, I should say — you mean in three years? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Dr. Noble. I should say from 15 to 30 times. The Chairman. What has been the extent of your opportunities for observation, and what has, in fact, been your observation of con- ditions ? Dr. Noble. I have seen the school in their general assembly. I have seen the different departments of the work of the school. I have seen them in their dining hall. I have seen them in their social functions. I have seen them in their athletic contests. I think I have seen them rather generally. The Chairman. What were the occasions of your visit ? I mean, what prompted you to come ? Dr. Noble. The interest in athletic games, which is general, prompted that, of course. Then I have been asked over here to make addresses two or three times, and asked to participate in the commencement. I have come without invitation, voluntarily, in order to know the educational value of the work done at the Indian school. That has been, I think, the chief method of coming, except- ing when I have come on some special occasion, like then commence- ment. The Chairman. What conclusions have you reached with refer- ence to the education value of the work done here % Dr. Noble. Of course, it must be understood by you gentlemen that I am not looking at the work solely as a resident of Carlisle. I am trying to estimate the education value of this kind of work. It is right at hand. There is a general agitation concerning vocational training and that kind of thing, and I have been interested to see how it worked here. And I have come over and gone into their shops and seen what the boys were doing, and tried to get hold of the educational value of the kind of work they are doing here. Now, as to my knowledge of it, I think it is mighty good work. I think it is very much better work than in other institutions which I have visited. There is a coordination between studies and prac- tical work in shops that I do not find in other places. Of course, I do not regard conditions in any school as so ideal that they could not be improved, but I have approved in my own thought and in public speech the work of the Indian school as it is now being done. The Chairman. That relates to what constitutes the vocational training, Doctor ? Dr. Noble. Take your printing shop here. It has seemed to me that perhaps that might be a test of the mental quality of these In- dian boys, and I have been a good many times to see whether they could read manuscript, set type without too many blunders in spell- ing, how they could do press work, what their abilities as practical printers might be, but always with the thought that the printing was related to their educational training. The Chairman. What number, approximately, have you observed that are securing this training in printing? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1157 Dr. Noble I should say there have been perhaps 15 to 20 in the place at the different times I was there; whether the same group of students of course, I would not know. They might have been the same or different ones. The Chairman. Have you visited other shops ? Dr. Noble. Yes. I have gone in the various other shops and seen what they were doing, but it has not seemed to me that the thing I was looking lor was as clearly indicated as in the printing shop but there has been an attitude of understanding and an air of diligence I do not know the teachers personally, so that I can not call them by name, but it has seemed to me— of course, I am not discriminating now against any teacher. It has seemed to me that the quality of some of the school work I have observed was very inferior. The Chairman. What do you mean by the school work? Dr. Noble. I mean the ability of the teacher to teach. The Chairman. How does that compare with the capacity of the pupil to grasp, as a rule ? _ Dr. Noble. Of course, that would raise a very big question. But it has seemed to me— sizing up teachers— as one does as a matter of business— that there was not quite as good a grade of teaching ability. I do not know the teachers personally, so that I could not say that the teacher of this is better and the teacher of that is inferior, but I have not been impressed with the ability of some of the teachers in their teaching work at the Carlisle School. The Chairman. Are you in any way interested in agriculture or any of the kindred arts ? Dr. Noble. Yes. The Chairman. What do you think about what has been done here to teach these boys those subjects ? Dr. Noble. I do not know enough about it to have a definite opinion. It is one of the things I have not investigated. The Chairman. You know they have two farms here ? Dr. Noble. Yes; I have never visited them. The Chairman. Have you observed the difference among the pupils ? Dr. Noble. Yes. The Chairman. What do you think of that ? Dr. Noble. It seemed to me to be pretty good. Of course, I know school work well enough to understand there will be breaches of discipline, but as I have observed the school in its social functions, in its athletic contests, in its shop work, and schoolroom work, it has seemed to me to be pretty good. The Chairman. Are you intimately enough acquainted with the conditions to know how the superintendent feels toward the pupils, and how they feel toward him, as a rule ? , Dr. Noble. Well, in this particular: Every time I have heard him speak, either in personal relations or in public, it has seemed to me he had a rather high conception of his job. He has championed the Indian sometimes in a way I have thought was very enthusiastic. The Chairman. Have you received any information of widespread hostility existing among the pupils toward him ? Dr. Noble. No; I knew nothing of it. 1158 OABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. You do not know that on some occasions in pub he they had jeered and hissed him, and called him "Jew," and names of that sort '< Dr. Noble. I did not know until after your representative from the Indian Department was announced as having come to Carlisle. That would not be a basis for judgment with me. I think the senior class of La Fayette College last year walked out when President War- field rose to speak; but I know President Warfield as a high-minded educator. The Chairman. I am asking as a matter of fact. It would not be a matter of judgment with me to know who was censurable, but it would reflect upon the conditions as they actually exist here if throughout the student body there was a feeling that Mr. Friedman was not in sympathy with them and their work, and did not encour- age them, and if on divers occasions he had called them "savages." These facts would disclose a state of feeling between the superintend- ent and the pupils. Now, I can say to you, Doctor, that it has disclosed that for many months there has been a condition here bordering on insurrection among the pupils. It has manifested itself in acts and marks of dis- courtesy for the superintendent, and it presents a condition that must be taken notice of. We are trying to find out, and it is a matter of surprise to me that one who has as much interest in the institution as you have should not nave known something about it. Dr. Noble. I knew nothing until the investigator appeared. Eepresentative Carter. How did you learn it after the investiga- tor appeared, Doctor ? Dr. Noble. It was told me by one of the citizens of the town that such a thing had occurred, and he, as I recall, gave a special reason for it. The Chairman. What was it ? Dr. Noble. That there was some friction in connection with the administration of the school. The Chairman. You mean among the employees ? Dr. Noble. Yes. The Chairman. Which had prompted or encouraged lax discipline ? Dr. Noble. So is my inference. The Chairman. Can you give any more definite information than that « Dr. Noble. No; I do not know the names of the employees here, excepting, perhaps, two or three. I know Mr. Warner quite well. Then I have heard the names — I know two others. The Chairman. But in any event your information is not definite enough to go into that ? Dr. Noble. No. The Chairman. When was your last visit to the school when you observed the work ? Dr. Noble. I was here sometime in December; it must have been toward the end of the month. I had a visitor from somewhere out of Carlisle, and I brought him over to see the Indian school, and Mr. Friedman was not here. So I felt as if I had some rights in the prem- ises, and I walked around with this visitor. The Chairman. Did you in that way inspect the quarters occu- pied by the students ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1159 Dr. Noble. No, sir. The Chairman. Have you ever been present while a meal was being served ? Dr. Noble. In the dining hall ? Yes, sir; last fall. The Chairman. Did you know that complaints are universal that an insufficient quantity of food, and especially of bread, is served, and that those complaints have been extended over a period of sev- eral months ? Dr. Noble. I had not heard of it; but I used to be the head of a boarding school years ago, and such complaints at certain times of the year were not infrequent. The Chairman. From your experience, there is no reason why a schoolboy ought not to have all the bread he wants ? Dr. Noble. He ought to have all he needs. The Chairman. There may be good reasons for depriving him of other things, but not bread. I can state to you, doctor, that it ap- pears from the testimony of a very large number of witnesses — per- sons who have observed it, and pupils, and employees of the school — that that condition has extended over a very long period, and the complaint is so widespread and uniform among the pupils as to the insufficient quantity of bread that there has been no conflict what- ever in the information that has come to us on that point, and we have been unable so far to ascertain why that sort of condition should have occurred. Dr. Noble. Of course, that information would come from people more intimately related to the school than any of us on the outside. The Chairman. Now, when you went around and made that — I will call it inspection, for want of a better term — what places did you visit ? Dr. Noble. We visited some of the rooms in the school building. We came over here and saw the gymnasium — this building. We went into some of the shops; I do not know that I could say just which shops. We looked around to see what the students were doing. I did take my friend, who was connected with an educational institution, into the printing department, and asked the gentleman in charge — his name, I think, is Smith — if he would explain to us just how the students did their work, and that was about the extent of our visit. The Chairman. I want to ask you a question that is quite a gen- eral question, and I do not know whether you will feel like answering it or not. In your various visits here, and especially on the occa- sions that you were observing the pupils at work and study, how were you impressed with the general character of the pupils, and what was their conduct as a whole ? Did you see evidences of dis- order or disquiet? Dr. Noble. No; I have never seen evidences of disorder. I have been rather favorably impressed with the behavior of the students as I have seen them, here and in town at night gatherings, or at church, or anything of that sort. The Chairman. On the whole, you think the conduct of the stu- dents, so far as you have had an opportunity of observing it, has been commendable? Dr. Noble. I have seen nothing objectionable, benator. 1160 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Senator Lane. This being a school for the general education for the Indian, and in addition to fit him for vocational work in life, if some sort of standard can bo set as to what ought to be obtained, everything being considered, there ought to be, then, a certain amount of result obtained in that direction? Dr. Noble. There certainly should; but I believe that funda- mentally it should be a matter of instruction. I think the results should relate fundamentally to instruction. Senator Lane. He should receive the instruction? Dr. Noble. He certainly should receive the instruction. Funda- mentally it is a matter of instruction. I am going to say to your committee quite frankly that it seems to me there is a weakness here. I know the Indian is a peculiar educational subject, but it strikes me, as I look at the work of the school from my point of view, that there is a weakness here in the teaching of the Indian girls and boys. Senator Lane. And in so far as it fails therein it lacks fulfilling the function it should fulfill ? Dr. Noble. Certainly; that is what our investment is for. Senator Lane. Now, then, assuming that the Indian is to go out and become useful as a farmer, as a mechanic, as a printer, whatever it may be — let us take the dairy; that is a useful vocation, and it is profitable, too, in some parts of the country. We find, as a matter of fact, that the boys are not sent there to learn that part of it, but as a punishment, and regard themselves Dr. Noble. Will you just make that statement again ? You mean that the dairy work is not a part of the curriculum ? Senator Lane. No, sir; they are sent there as a punishment, if you please, as a penalty, for getting drunk; punished, if you please. Consequently they come there dissatisfied, do not like it, and then tear up the milk records. Dr. Noble. Why, gentlemen, that is surprising to me, because the chance for agricultural education Senator Lane. Now, Doctor, and to show that they did not expect that they ripped up the records of the dairy cows so that the milkman in charge is unable to keep the record of the milk product of his cows. That is not a proper spirit. They come, they go; no one stays there long enough to become proficient. As they become good workers they are removed and sent somewhere else. In the carpenter shop it is the same Dr. Noble. Carpentering is not a punishment ? Senator Lane. No; but the head carpenter tells-me they are taken away from him. Dr. Noble. Senator, a course that lasts a certain number of weeks Senator Lane. But no one ever finishes it. Dr. Noble. But, gentlemen, at the commencement exercises there is always an ocular demonstration of the work that is done. The Chaieman. Have you read the catalogue, Doctor ? Dr. Noble. Yes. Senator Lane. They inform me — I have been through the shops this morning and they did not know who I was. I asked," Where is your finished workmen?" and they answered, "We have .one or two, but they do not remain long enough." He said, ' ' I could go out there and build their buildings for them." The tinner told me the same. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1161 The blacksmith is in a similar condition, and the farmer told me that ne can not get young men to work for him that are useful to work anywhere else. It is all down the line, apparently told in good faith L7?l?h° W > ?? the coofan ? department, and I found for a ration mn tt^ ♦ \ J° U I considera tion, 5 pounds of oatmeal mush for 1?r H ^- IRMAN - Have y° u an y authority to whip? Mr. McKean. WeU I don't know. I tell you, it is like this: I do not make a practice of whipping any boys. I taught school before I came into the Indian Service, and occasionally a little whipping does a boy good; but, as a general proposition, it is a bad thing, and I avoid it. , f T ^ Chairman. Do you know of being whipped by Mr. Stauffer? e> rr j Mr. McKean. I heard that she was. The Chairman. Do you know whether he had any authority to admimster punishment to her? Mr. McKean. A@ I say, I do not think that in his capacity of musician here— it would be a different thing than if he were disci- plinarian or matron. I do not think that he would have any authority to administer any corporal punishment. The Chairman. You were not present at any time while that occurred ? Mr. McKean. No, sir. The Chairman. Were you present while some boys were whipped in the jail? Mr. McKean. No, sir; that was before I came here. The Chairman. Do you know a former student by the name of Montreville Yuda ? Mr. McKean. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you look into his case ? Mr. McKean. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Under whose instructions ? • Mr. McKean. Mr. Friedman's. The Chairman. What were your instructions ? Mr. McKean. The first I had to do with Montreville, I was in- structed to take him off the school grounds; that he was expelled or sent away from here. I did so; and it seems that he struck a job in Carlisle with some ice-cream firm there, and the superintendent told me he was an undesirable character to have in the Carlisle School or its vicinity, and he was convinced that he had practices and was doing things that were detrimental to the boys. The Chairman. Did he tell you what they were ? Mr. McKean. Why, he thought, for one thing — the only thing that was definite that I could say was that he had' been getting them whisky, but that was a surmise. The instructions I got were to find out something tangible upon that boy by which the court could get hold of him and order him out of town. The Chairman. You were instructed to get evidence against him ? 1192 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL Mr. McKean. Yes. The Chairman. Did you do it ? Mr. McKean. I tried it. The Chairman. Did you succeed ? Mr. McKean. I interviewed the policeman down town about this boy, and he told me that he thought — that he was quite positive that Montreville Yuda had been getting whisky himself, and that he could find out all about it. That was before I went on my vacation. After I came back I learned that during this time this big, tall, red-headed detective — Bentley is his name, I think — had .ordered him out of town; by whose instructions I could not say, whether it was the court's or not. He went to a town up the railroad here a short distance. The Chairman. Chambersburg ? Mr. McKean. I think so; yes, sir; and found employment up there. The next time I saw Montreville Yuda on the street here he was limp- ing along; and I spoke and shook hands with him, and asked him what the trouble was; and he told me he had dropped a cake of ice on his foot; and he wanted to know if I was going to try to drive him out of Carlisle. I told him I had nothing against him, and as long as he behaved himself I did not think he would have any trouble, but what- ever instructions I got I would have to carry them out. But so far as my personal relations with him were concerned, they were all right. The Chairman. Did you find any evidence that the young man had been getting whisky for the Indian pupils ? Mr. McKean. I found that he had, while he was a student here, before this time, brought some of the boj^s down into a disorderly house down in Carlisle, had brought several of them there, but they were boys that were then away from the school and have gone back hom<\ That was the only evidence. The Chairman. You did not find anything with reference to stu- dents ? Mr. McKean. No, sir; not of recent date. The Chairman. You have not put in the record the trouble you had with that boy who hit you. Mr. McKean. That is an individual case. I think he did that him- self , and I am convinced that does not represent the school. Representative Stephens. Do you know of any case where Mr.' Friedman has ordered Yuda or any other boy, after leaving the school, to leave the town or leave the county when they had employment ? Mr. McKean. This is the stand Mr. Friedman told me the school took: Students, after they left this school — he did not want them around this vicinity. He wanted them away from here, and took means to send them away. I do not think he ever gave me any in- structions to drive them away or disturb them in their occupations, but he told me that when students quit the school he wanted them away from here and not around Carlisle or its vicinity. Representative Stephens. Did he give any reason for that ? Mr. McKean. The only reason that he gave was that on account of the girls going down town and that young man there, there might be serious trouble in that respect. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1193 TESTIMONY OF MISS MARGAKET M. SWEENEY. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman Representative Carter. What is your official position « Miss Sweeney. Teacher. Representative Carter Miss Sweeney, could you tell us anything ?J- y °S WOuld be for the g° od of tbis institution i Miss Sweeney. I presume I can not add very much more to what you have already heard. Representative Carter. We would like to have any suggestions you might make. s& Miss Sweeney. I think if there were tact used in discipline we would have a much better school. That is what is lacking Representative Carter. That you are short on discipline « Miss Sweeney. The superintendent^in my opinion— he has no discipline. He evidently has not had very much experience in that lme, because he does such funny things, you know, that are detri- mental to the discipline of the school. Representative Carter. Do you know anything of his attitude toward the students and their feeling toward him ? Miss Sweeney. Now, I have been here four years. I came here four years ago in November, and there were students here at the time I came that I had known before, and I was shocked at the feel- ing of those students toward Mr. Friedman at that time. It seems they had an investigation the May before I came. I could not tell you the nature of the trouble then, but I was told by the pupils at that time that they very much — that the feeling of the pupils was that they were going to have an uprising among themselves and drive him off and any employee that was in sympathy with him. Representative Carter. Do you know anything of their expressing their dislike in the way of hissing, etc. ? Miss Sweeney. You could ask that better from somebody who was here at the time; but I understood that the band refused to Elay for him. I could not give you any definite idea about what appened, because 1 only heard it second handed. Representative Carter. Have you any direct information about the morals of the school and the pupils ? Miss Sweeney. You see, it requires a very strong man in the school, and I presume we get the worst class of pupils; a class of pupils that can not be controlled in other schools. Now, during the time Miss Gaither was here Miss Gaither had what we considered very good tact in controlling those girls, and she gained the love and esteem of the girls; but she had no support from the superintendent. Representative Carter. Why did she leave? Miss Sweeney. He was instrumental in getting her to leave. Representative Carter. He had her transferred ? Miss Sweeney. So far as i can see, if he takes a personal dislike to you it makes no difference how good an employee you are or how well you are doing your duty toward the Government. Representative Carter. What do you know about Mr. Stauffer? What is his influence ? Miss Sweeney, i do not consider Mr. Stauffer a very great addi- tion to our faculty. 1194 CARLISLE IK MAX SCHOOL. Representative Carter. Do you know. of any specific things he has done? Miss Sweexey. There was a lady, Mrs. James Thorpe, told me a story; she was not going into details, more because she knew I had already heard it; but she went into details with the sisters, and the sisters told me; and she spoke of it again to me, and I did not ask her to go into details because I had already heard the story. It was a, very immoral story, and it was in connection with the— he said, what I understand, that the sisters and priests were living an im- moral life. Representative Carter. Who said that ? Miss Sweeney. Mr. Stauffer. I understand she went to his room to take her lesson, and he talked in such a way to her that she got frightened; and she said that she sat there and took this language from the man simply because he was an employee and she was a pupil. Representative Carter. Indecent language ? Miss Sweeney. Inde.ent language; and she said, "I felt like clawing his face." Representative Carter. And he said that the priests and the sisters were living immorally ? Miss Sweeney. Yes; and he talked in such a broad way to her that she was horrified. She, of course, was brought up by the sisters, and she knew he was telling what was false. I think he has been in- strumental in making considerable trouble here between Mr. Whitwell and Mr. Friedman. Representative Carter. Have you ever had any trouble with Mr. Friedman yourself ? Miss Sweeney. I have never had any words with him, but he has treated me very badly since the first of September. Representative Carter. In what way, Miss Sweeney? Miss Sweeney. Now, to go back, I think that when I got my pro- motion- this automatic promotion you know, and the fact I was a Catholi'j - he did not speak to me after I got it for some five or six weeks. Then when he got into trouble with Mr. Whitwell he was very anxious to get my friendship. Representative Carter. When did he and Mr. Whitwell get into trouble ? Miss Sweeney. Sometime in October. Of course, he had been so disagreeable over the school work. It was an old grudge, it seems. And then, of course, Mr. Whitwell lost his temper, and he made a charge against him Representative Carter. What charge ? Miss Sweeney. Mr. Whitwell called him a "dirty skunk." Representative Carter. Does Mr. Friedman attempt to discriminate against people on account of their religion? Miss Sweeney. He did; I think he is very anxious — you see, Father Stock and Mr. Friedman had some trouble in regard to religious matters in regard to pupils going to confession. Father Stock took it to Washington. The commissioner had ordered Mr. Friedman to send the children to church with their officers, and I think that made him very angry. Representative Carter. Does that extend to the students too ? Does he discriminate against the children too ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1195 Miss Sweeney. Since the time of Col. Pratt, when the children went to confession and communion every second Sunday, they went down in charge of their officers, but Mr. Friedman said that the girls could not go down unless they had a chaperone, and he detailed me to chaperone the children at half-past 9 to the regular mass, where the boys went too. Of course, Father Stock could not get any lady to come up for them from the town and make it a regular work. So I think that was really his motive, for it was taking revenge in a way upon Father Stock. TESTIMONY OF MISS HANNAH H. RIDENOUR. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You are the matron at Carlisle School ? Miss Ridenour. I am the matron. The Chairman. How long have you been here ? Miss Ridenotjr. One year and a few days. The Chairman. How long have you been in the Indian Service, Miss Ridenour ? Miss Ridenotjr. About 16 years. The Chairman. Where did you serve before coming here ? Miss Ridenotjr. Mascalero, N. Mex.; Hoopa, Cal., and Phoenix, Ariz. The Chairman. How did you find the conditions among the pupils under your jurisdiction with reference to discipline when you first came here? Miss Ridenour. Pretty bad. The Chairman. How would you describe it ? Miss Ridenotjr. Impudent, saucy The Chairman. Was there much immorality among them? Miss Ridenour. Yes, sir; there was some. I could not tell you how much. Right at first I did not find this out. I was here a short time before I discovered the first cases. The Chairman. What is the condition now with reference to the same subject? Has it improved any ? Miss Ridenotjr. It seems to me that it is better. The Chairman. Have you had much difficulty m handling the girls? Miss Ridenotjr. I have had some. . The Chairman. Have you had many conflicts with them <■. Miss Ridenour. Several. ,..-,, 1 The Chairman. What is your relationship with them in a general way ? Is it cordial or rather strained ? Miss Ridenour. It has been very strained of late. The Chairman. How long has it been since that began i Miss Ridenour. Sometime before Christmas I think u started up. Just since New Years it has been the worst. The first outbreak was on New Year's Hay. The Chairman. Describe that outbreak Miss Ridenour. It was not just an outbreak. Realh they dis obeved me and went over my head. _ The Chairman. Appealed to the superintendent over vou? Sts Ridenour. Yes; appealed to the superintendent without permission, and I would have given them that permission. 1196 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Was that about the skating expedition? Miss Ridenour. I was trying to get permission at the time over the phone, to find out if he would allow us to go, but I happened to see them sneeking out to go, and I did not know where they went, I followed them to the door to see, while I was waiting for Mr. Fried- man to come to the telephone. The Chairman. Did you hare a controversy with them ? Miss Ridenour. I just called them in and talked to them about it and asked them why they did it. The Chairman. You reproved them? Miss Rjdenour. I reproved them; yes, sir. The Chairman. Did the superintendent sustain you? He sent them back to you, did he not ? Miss Rjdenour. That was not taken up with the superintendent at all. The Chairman. They never did get their appeal before him? Miss Ridenour. He told the girls he would see me about it. That is, he sent word to them by his wife. She went to the door. The Chairman. How many girls have you under your jurisdiction? Miss Ridenour. Two hundred and thirty-five right here on the grounds. I have 87 in the country that I have a good deal of work to do for. The Chairman. Do you reside in the same building where they do ? Miss Ridenour. I do. The Chairman. What is their general conduct in their rooms with reference to being orderly or disorderly? Miss Ridenour. In the way of keeping their rooms ? The Chairman. I mean in the way of being quiet and reserved. Miss Ridenour. As a rule, they are very good. The Chairman. Now, how do they keep their rooms? Miss Ridenour. If we keep after them, they keep them prett} good. The Chairman. You have some trouble? Miss Ridenour. Certainly; we have to be after them. The Chairman. Do you remember the case of Julia Hardin ? Miss Ridenour. The girl who was whipped by Mr. Stauffer; yes, sir. The Chairman. I wish you would tell about that. Miss Ridenour. Begin at the beginning and tell the whole thing ? The Chairman. Yes; briefly. Miss Ridenour. Julia signed to go to the country for the first party last spring. Everything went along all right until the day every- thing was prepared to go, and when the time came to pack trunks and get ready those for whom places had been assigned — I think we packed the trunks the day before. When I sent for her to come and pack her trunk she refused to come. In the first place, I announced in the morning that the girls who were to go were not to go to school. When it came time for her to pack her trunk I sent to the school- house for her and she did not come. I had to send Miss Austin for her. It was getting late and all, and she would not hurry at all. She just lagged along and said she was not going and we could not make her, so I appealed to Mrs. La Flesche, the outing manager, and she said that Julia must go. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1197 Then we took it up to find out what her excuse was. She wanted to wait for the next party, and I believe she said she did not have a trunk; that she wanted to get the money that she expected for a new trunk, as her trunk was not good. Then we excused her, and I rushed aroung and got another girl ready on short notice to go in her place. So it went on until the next time came. When the next party came The Chairman. How long was that after the first occasion ? Miss Ridenour. I think there was about four or six weeks between. When it came time to pack trunks again I announced to her that they had secured a place for her and that she would have to go the next day. She told me she was not going. I did not pay much atten- tion to it ; I just supposed it was some of her folly and that she would go. She went off to school again and we had to send for her. We had to go for her three or four times that day, one or the other of us, and it was almost train time; that is, just time to get her packed to go when the rest were to go. I did everything to try to pursuade her that I could and to show to her that the only thing to do was to get ready and go, and she still refused. I went up to Mr. Friedman and told him I could not do anything with Julia; that she refused to go and said she would not go for any- body. Mr. Friedman sent Mrs. La Flesche down, and she would not do anything for her. Mr. Friedman said she must go. I went up to her room and took her up there; I had almost to push her to her room. I told her she must go anyhow and keep her promise this time, and she would not do it. Representative Carter. Did she have a trunk then ? Miss Ridenour. No; she had drawn her money and spent it for other things. I went down and called Mr. Friedman again, and Mr. Friedman sent Mr. Stauffer, I think, and he said he happened to come into the office at that time, so he called him. Mr. Stauffer came down and I took him up to her room, and he talked to her, and we both talked to her and tried to pursuade her, and she just talked back to us and told us there was nobody would make her do what she did not want to do. Mr. Stauffer went back and went to Mr. Friedman again, and she ran off outside and told the girls how she talked to us, right in front of the building here, and declared she would not go. But I went after her and got her back in the office, and I was talking to her when Mr. Stauffer came back. He took the case then and began to talk to her and asked her if she would go and she said she would not. He told her what she would have to do, and she got smart and imper- tinent and said saucy things back, and he slapped her face. I think he slapped her a couple of times, and she doubled up and dropped down on the floor. 1 think he tried to get her up; we both tried to get her up and we failed, and he pulled her over and spanked her. ° The Chairman. What did he use % A board % Miss Ridenour. I went and got a piece of kindling. The Chairman. How many times did he strike her ? Miss Ridenour. I do not know, but it was not halt enough. The Chairman. You think she did not get enough punishment ( 1198 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Miss Ridenour. Mrs. La Flesche, she came in, and Mr. Stauffcr told her how the thing was, and she said that was what she deserved. She said too that she had not got half enough. The Chairman. Really, don't you feci in a case like that — she is about 18 years old, I believe — don't you think such a case had better be handled in a different way than by having a man take a young lady and spank her with a board? Do you think it helped the discipline of the school ? Miss Ridenour. I certainly think it did. The Chairman. Was that your intention in having it done ? Miss Ridenour. To do the right thing for the school and the girl. Mrs. La Flesche came in and she talked to her again and she would not get up. Then Mr. Whitwell came in and he talked to her and she would not get up for a long time. He told her she would have to go and sign the check, and if she did not we would have to send her to a reform school. So she finally got up and signed the check. The Chairman. What is the rule about those outing parties ? Miss Ridenour. It is their own free will to go if they want to, but after they sign and all arrangements are made they are compelled to go. The Chairman. They are given the option ? Miss Ridenour. They are given due consideration, and they are given one chance to go back on their word, if they want to, and the next time they are made to go through. Representative Carter. She signed up a second time, did she ? Miss Ridenour. This was the same time; she promised to go the next time. In the meantime Mr. Whitwell said she should be locked up. We did that, so that the girls would not get to her and persuade her to do something else. Mr. Whitwell went with me and took her to the little lock-up we had, and locked her up in there. One of the matrons went into the little clothing room, which is right off that room, and she called to the matron and asked if she would send for Mr. Stauffer. Mr. Stauffer came right back and he and I went right back to the little lock-up and she apologized to both of us, and said she would go on and be no more trouble at all. Then, rather than leave her in the lock-up over night, we both told her we had forgiven her — she asked us if we would, and if it would make any difference to any one else, and we told her we knew it would not. I took her to my room and kept her in my room, because I did not want her out where the girls were, for fear the girls would get hold of her and persuade her to go back. In the meantime the boy she had been infatuated with during this time, he found out she was in my room. He went up to the window and had— she told the whole story. I trusted her and let her stay in my room, and then she saw the boy — by the way, he has caused more trouble than anything else. The Chairman. Who is he ? Miss Ridenour. Tony Largeknees. The Chairman. How did she get along ? Miss Ridenour. When she first went out she got along splendidly. She got very good reports. She wrote me a letter thanking me for what we had done for her and said she was glad we bad done it, and it had done her lots of good. And when she came back she walked into OABLISLB INDIAN SCHOOL. 1199 the office and said she was glad Mr. Stauffer and I made her go, and she has been one of the best girls up to about New Year's that we have ever had. The Chairman. Did you ever have any trouble with her other than that time ? Miss Ridenour. I came in January, and that was soon after I came. Before that she was— I always thought she was— one of the leaders in throwing things. That is what they did when I first came here. The Chairman. They do not do that now ? Miss Ridenour. No, sir; they have been very good. The Chairman. Was her conduct reported to the people she went to ? Miss Ridenour. Yes, sir. She was taken out to the country all the way by Mrs. La Flesche, so they would know what they had to deal with. I suppose she took her to Philadelphia The Chairman. Were they instructed to curtail her privileges on account of her conduct before she left the school ? Miss Ridenour. I could not toU you that. The Chairman. You do not know anything about what information was communicated ? Miss Ridenour. No. But I know some of the letters that were written back. She wrote to this boy some postal cards with all sorts of stuff on them The Chairman. Anything improper on them ? Miss Ridenour. She wrote to this Tony what she would do, that she would run away and stay out all night — put it on a postal card and sent it through the post office. The boy was under punishment at that time, and Mr. McKean noticed this card. The Chairman. You are satisfied there was no foundation for her statements that she had been so imprudent in her conduct ? Miss Ridenour. They made a thorough investigation, and I think they found out. The people said that she and another girl ran away to a dance. Both the country mothers said she had never been out of the house to then knowledge, they could not find out anything. Nothing was ever said to the girl about it at all. The Chairman. Do you know the feeling between Mr. Friedman and the pupils generally? Do you know whether the relation be- tween them is strained, or cordial ? Miss Ridenour. Well, at present it is strained, and at one time be- . fore it was. We opened up school with a very good feeling in Septem- ber. Everything just seemed to be going on splendidly until the last four or six weeks. The Chairman. To what do you attribute the disaffection among your pupils ? Miss Ridenour. Well, I am not real positive, but I have felt that there were employees that have influenced the children. I have felt that there was outside influence somewhere. The Chairman. Have you any information as to that, or any proof of it? Miss Ridenour. I do not know that I have. The Chairman. Is there much drinking among the boys, Miss Ridenour ? 1200 Carlisle Indian school. Miss Ridenour. I can not say. They have had a good many cases of drunkenness here, I think. The Chairman. Of course, you have no special jurisdiction over things of that sort? Miss Ridenour. Only keeping them away from the girls. Tho Chairman. Do you have much trouble in keeping the boys away from the girls ? Miss Ridenour. I have had lots of trouble. The Chairman. What precautions do you take, and what plans do you pursue to prevent immoral relations between them 1. Miss Ridenour. Well, I do not allow them to go anywhere un- chaperoned if I can help it. I keep as close a watch upon them in every respect as I can. The Chairman. I think it is in evidence that you reprove them whenever you can. Miss Ridenour. I think if you ask* them they will know why. They have done a great many things. The girls themselves opened the door. The last case we had, one of the girls said in a letter that the girl did it, and it was not the boys. They had to take a hasp off the door, and they had to get a key some way. This was after this trouble seemed to take hold of them. I attributed it mostly to this quarantine business. We were quarantined on account of measles. We were quarantined here for two months, and we have not been allowed to go down town. We had to close the socials, and the boys and girls said it was a pretext just to keep them from having socials. That is the way they would talk, and I think that is the way that door was opened. The Chairman. On that occasion was there evidence of improper relationship between them, or was that just an effort to associate together ? Miss Ridenour. I do not know. The girls said — the four that we caught in this affair claimed that they were in a spirit of fun, and the boys said they came there for that purpose. The Chairman. How were the boys punished? Miss Ridenour. They were locked up for a few days. I locked up the girls here for a week, and they were told they were to be deprived of all privilege of socials, going to town, and drawing money until after commencement. I have carried that out so far, but one of the boys has been to three receptions. That is what the boys are angry ■ at me about, because they think I am punishing the girls, and the boys have been so rebellious against me. The Chairman. I. have not found any evidence of that. Miss Ridenour. I can not go across the campus here that they do not all shout, "Put her out." The Chairman. Have you heard them make similar displays toward the superintendent? Have you. heard them call him "Jew," etc.? Miss Ridenour. I have noticed the boys doing it. But they do it to me every time I go on the campus, if there are a few of them together, or even one. One was passing the dining room the other evening, and he shouted at me, "Let them out, " meaning, I suppose, that I was keeping the girls too close. The Chairman. For my part, Miss Ridenour, I feel you have had some very hard work, and you have been very unfortunate in this strained relation that has arisen. I would like to ask, if you care to CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1201 suggest it, just what you think are the remedies for these conditions 1 do not mean to urge it, because you are not charged with that responsibility If you have anything you want to suggest I would like to have you do it. Miss Ridenotjr. I feel positive that there is somebody irfluencinc the children, both against me and Mr. Friedman. If you can not find that out and remove it I do not think there is any remedy That is what I feel. ' Eepresentative Carter. You think it is not confined to the chil- dren? Miss Ridenotjr. I am almost positive it is not. Whenever I have trouble with the children they go across to a certain teacher's room Representative Carter. Would you mind telling us which one ? Miss Ridenotjr. Miss Sweeney is one of them, and the Catholic children are the ones she gets over there. And it appears that if I correct a girl for something the next thing I know she is slipping out and going over there, and she is not supposed to go without permis- sion. When I found out the things that were going on, I got after them about it. They think I am harsh. The Chairman. Do you think it would be possible to establish more amicable relations with them by relaxing that harshness, if you will call it that ? Miss Ridenotjr. My harshness ? My discipline ? The Chairman. Your method of discipline. Miss Ridenotjr. Yes; if I just let them go The Chairman. You think the primary consideration is that they want more privileges ? Miss Ridenotjr. They would just as soon I would go down to my room and stay all day and let them run the office. They have told me that Miss Gaither did that. They would come in — 5, 6, 8, or 10 — and sit on my desk, and I had to order them out. I told them the office was a place of business, and they could not come in there and talk about one thing and another. Whatever I have done, I have tried to do for their interest. Of course, sometimes I have been angry, and I have had occasion to be. If anybody else can go in there and do it, I would like to see them. Representative Stephens. Do any of the girls come to you and con- sult with you in a motherly way ? Miss Ridenotjr. Some of them. Representative Stephens. How many ? Miss Ridenotjr. I could not say. Representative Stephens. As a rule, they refuse to come to you unless they have to ? Is that correct ? Miss Ridenotjr. I do not think so. There are some that do not come around. Representative Stephens. Do you believe it would be possible for Mr. Friedman, in the condition you know the school to be in now, to reinstate himself in the good graces of these children ? Miss Ridenotjr. I do not see why not. I positively feel it would be the downfall of this school if Mr. Friedman is removed now. I do not see why he could not. He has done everything that he could for those children so far as I can see. 35601— pt 11—14 16 1202 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Representative Stephens. You say there is an estrangement now ? Miss Ridenour. It seems to be. They are calling him names Representative Stephens. The relations will have to be changed from what they are now before the school will be put upon a proper footing. Is that true ? Miss Ridenour. I suppose so. I have seen several little things that have caused me to think, but I could not positively prove it myself. I have heard one girl say that she was called into Mr. Whitwell's office Representatvic Carter. Mr. Whitwell has always assisted you in correcting the girls ? Miss Ridenour. I do not know that I ever called upon him. Representative Carter. Didn't you call upon him in the Julia Hardin case? Miss Ridenour. Mr. Friedman called on him. Representative Carter. He assisted you then, didn't he? Miss Ridenour. He came over; yes. Representative Carter. The conduct of the girls toward you has been very bad, you say? Miss Ridenour. Yes, sir; at times. Representative Carter. Did that begin as soon as you came here? Miss Ridenour. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Can you give us any idea about what the cause of that was ? Do you know why they seemed immediately to take a dislike to you? Miss Ridenour. No; I do hot. Representative Carter. I would like to know something about this trouble that you said started in January. Miss Ridenour. Well, they just got unruly, and disobeyed. Representative Carter. Do you know any cause for that ? Miss Ridenour. I attributed it to the quarantine. That is what I thought all the time it was, because they said we were using that as a pretext to keep the boys and girls from getting together. Representative Carter. How long has Julia Hardin been in school ? Mi-s Ridenour. I could not tell you. Representative Carter. Was she here when you came? Miss Ridenour. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. What is her school rating ? Do you know ? Miss Ridenour. 1 could not tell you. Representative Carter. Do you know what her ratings were for deportment ? Miss Ridenour. No. Representative Carter. Have you ever had any trouble with her except this one time ? Miss Ridenour. Not any special trouble. When I first came here I thought she was one of them — I have more trouble with the girls in the business department than any other girls. Representative Carter. What do you attirbute that to ? Miss Ridenour. Liberties they take. Representative Carter. You do not think there was anyone in the business department trying to prejudice you ? Miss Ridenour. Oh, no; I think they were given liberties over there. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1203 Representative Carter. How many girls have been locked un since you have been here ? Miss Ridenour. I could not tell you. A good many have Representative Carter. Where do you lock them up « Miss Ridenour. In some rooms in the building Representative Carter. Is this the only girl you have had occasion to inflict corporal punishment on? Miss Ridenour. No, sir. Representative Carter. You have had to punish others ? Miss Ridenour. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. How many ? Miss Ridenour. I do not know. I have slapped several of their mouths for impudence, and I have spanked two, or strapped them. Representative Carter. This is the only time that anyone has been called in to assist ? Miss Ridenour. That is the only time. I called Mr. Denny in one morning, but there was nothing done. He just talked to the girl. The Chairman. Who was that girl you heard say Mr. Whitwell called her in his office and told her what to say over here ? Miss Ridenour. It was not the girl that was called in; it was one of the other girls that was. Maud French, I think, was the girl. The Chairman. Where was she when you heard her make that remark ? Miss Ridenour. It was in the hall at the quarters. TESTIMONY OF DR. WAITEE RENDTORFF. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. How long have you been here, Doctor ? Dr. Rendtorff. I came on the 1st day of January. The Chairman. Where did you come from here ? Dr. Rendtorff. Anadarko, Okla. The Chairman. You are the physician at the school ? Dr. Rendtorff. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is the general condition of health in the school ? Dr. Rendtorff. Generally pretty fair. The Chairman. How were you received when you came by the superintendent and others ? Dr. Rendtorff. Oh, with anything but the courtesy that I thought was due me. The Chairman. Tell me about it just a little in detail. Dr. Rendtorff. Well, sir, I stepped to the door and rang. Mr. Friedman came out and shook me very warmly by the hand, and called me by some name which I have forgotten. I said, "You have made a mistake; I am Dr. Rendtorff." His entire demeanor changed im- mediately. He asked me to step in. He said a few words — asked me why I came down here when there was a $40,000 hospital building where I was coming from, and spoke a few more words. He then told me to go to the hospital with Dr. Allen, who was present in the room at the time. I went with Dr. Allen, and my conversation with Mr. Friedman was not very long. The Chairman. Do you know why he resented your coming down here? 1204 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Dr. Rendtokff. I can not say that I know of any reason. The Chairman. Is there much tuberculosis in this school ? Dr. Rendtorff. From my own observation — -I have not had a very good oportunity to look all the children over. I have been pretty busy here with measles. I did look all the records over though, when I first came, which is quite a job. At that time I made some notes, which I had not intended to use in this way at all. There are 18 cases of glandular tuberculosis. The Chairman. How many cases of pulmonary tuberculosis ? Dr. Rendtorff. I do not know; I have not got that down. But I have discovered since I came three cases of pulmonary tuberculosis, two of which were so far along that I had to send them home. The Chairman. Is there much trachoma ? Dr. Rendtorff. I really can not tell you the. percentage. There is quite a bit. They have been pretty well taken care of. The Chairman. That was the statement of Dr. Allen. He said, however, that about 70 or 75 per cent of the pupils have trachoma in some of its stages, but that it is pretty well under control. Dr. Rendtorff. Yes, sir; it has been taken care of well. There are seven cases of trachoma which should be operated upon. Some of those are comparatively new students. Two, I know personally, have just come in. The Chairman. Why don't you operate ? Dr. Rendtorff. Oh, I am going to. I have made four tonsil operations here lately. The Chairman. What is the discipline of the school ? Dr. Rendtorff. Why, I have been led to think it has not been extra good. TESTIMONY OF HARVEY K. MEYER. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. What is your business, Mr. Meyer ? Mr. Meyer. I am clerk here ; generally called Mr. Friedman's clerk. The Chairman. Have you observed the discipline in the school recently ? Mr. Meyer. Yes; I ha\e. The Chairman. Is it good or bad ? Mr. Meyer. I would say it was quite bad. The Chairman. Have you seen manifestations of disrespect on the part of pupils toward the superintendent? Mr. Meyer. Yes, sir; I have. The Chairman. You have heard them jeer him and call him "Jew"? J Mr. Meyer. I have not heard that. I have heard it spoken about; yes. The Chairman. What demonstrations have you seen and heard ? Mr. Meyer. There was an instance when two of our girls were sent away, and it was about 5 o'clock in the evening, so they could take a tram at 5.41. They were brought to Mr. Friedman's office and held there some little time, and taken out the east entrance to our office building. A number of the girls had congregated on the campus because work had been discontinued. Mr. Friedman went out on the campus and asked the girls to go back to the quarters. They refused to do so, and openly called good-bye to those girls, which was the CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1205 very thing he wanted to prevent. That was the most flagrant case of disobedience that I could mention. The Chairman. Do the students claim they do not get enough to eat ? Mr. Meter. I have heard that complaint; yes. The Chairman. Do they complain they do not get enough bread ? Mr. Meyer. Yes; I heard that complaint about two weeks ago. The Chairman. What has been your experience in the service heretofore ? Mr. Meter. I was at the Haskell Institute three and a half years, under Supt. Pierce. The Chairman. Do you think this school is progressing satisfac- torily ? Mr. Meyer. No; not at present. The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for the troubles ? Mr. Meyer. I believe that we have to get a bigger man than Mr. Friedman is; one who can get the respect of the students and can get employees who are willing to do good work, so they can work together. The Chairman. Is the feeling of disrespect toward the superin- tendent pretty general throughout the student body ? Mr. Meyer. I think so; very much. TESTIMONY OF CHARLES H. CAKNS. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. What is your business? Mr. Carns. Painter. The Chairman. You are employed at the Carlisle School? Mr. Carns. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What are your duties? Mr. Carns. Painter. The Chairman. To give instruction in painting ? Mr. Carns. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many pupils are detailed to you ( Mr. Carns. From 20 to 30 or 35. , The Chairman. How long should a pupil be permitted to remain with you to receive proper training in the trade ? Mr. Carns. Not less than three years. The Chairman. How long do they stay here, as a rule i Mr. Carns. Two years and a half, or longer. The Chairman. What percentage of them? Mr. Carns. Oh, I could not say. I have four at the present time that have been with me a little over two years. The Chairman. The rest of them have been there a shorter time i Mr. Carns. Yes, sir. . * The Chairman. Very few of them are permitted to remain under vou long enough to learn the trade ? Mr Carns. I do not think I ever had any over three years. The Chairman. They are detailed somewhere else i Mr Carns. They are taken out at times; yes, sir The Chairman. And detailed to some other duty i Mr. Carns. Yes, sir. 1206 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Have you ever been able to turn out a pupil that has been able to do the class of work you seek to teach him to do ? Mr. Carns. I have; yes, sir. The Chairman. How many 1 Mr. Carxs. I do not remember. Probably I could name a dozen or so if 1 look over my list. The Chairman. That is a good trade, is it not ? There is quite a demand for skillful carriage painters ? Mi-. Carns. We do not get much chance on carriage work, because tiiere is a carriage maker on the ground here most of the time outside. TESTIMONY OF MARTIN I. LATJ. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. What is your employment ? Mr. Latt. Carriage maker. The Chairman. Have you a shop here for the instruction of pupils ? Mr. Latj. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many pupils are detailed for your depart- ment? Mr. Latt. It is different; they run from 18 up to — at the present I have 25. The Chairman. How long does it take you ordinarily, or should it take you, to properly instruct your students in that work ? Mr. Latj. Not less than three years — that is, actual work. The Chairman. What is the custom here, with reference to per- mitting them to remain, or detailing them to other work ? Mr. Latj. The students are detailed to other work before they get a right start. Some few stay there until they are pretty good wagon makers. The Chairman. What per cent of them stay there and learn the trade ? Mr. Latj. Not over 2 per cent. TESTIMONY OF JOHN A. HERR. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You have charge of the carpenter shop ? Mr. Herr. Yes, sir; the carpenter shop. The Chairman. Is the shop pretty well equipped ? Mr. Herr. Yes; very well equipped. The Chairman. Properly equipped for instruction work, is it ? Mr. Herr. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many pupils are usually detailed for insttrc- tion in your department ? Mr. Herr. I could average in the winter time 40 to 41 ; sometimes 42. The Chairman. Do the pupils here take to the carpenter's trade pretty well ? Mr. Herr. Oh, a certain per cent; not all. The Chairman. Do you know how they are chosen; how the superintendent or disciplinarian, or whoever it is makes the detail, determines what number shall come to you ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1207 Mr. Herr. As far as I know, I think the boys are allowed to walk around and select their place. The Chairman. They are given some option ? Mr. Herr. Yes, sir; I think so. . The Chairman. I believe I asked you how long it took to teach a boy to become a fairly good carpenter ? Mr. Herr. No. They should be there from two and a half to three years, at any rate. The Chairman. Are the boys that are detailed to you permitted to stay there that long ? Mr. Herr. No, sir; may be 7 per cent, may be 6 per cent, out of these 40. The Chairman. Have you made any suggestions to the author- ities in the school here that that system ought to be changed and you be given a chance to teach the boys so as to make them capable of following the trade, and thus vindicate your position as instructor? Mr. Herr. I have mentioned that to them frequently; yes, sir. We have talked that matter over, that to make practical mechanics of them they should be kept in the shop. The Chairman. How is the construction work on the new build- ings done, by student labor or by outside labor ? Mr. Herr. Some of them. The Chairman. What percentage of it ? Mr. Herr. Since I am here most of it has been done by student labor. The Chairman. Is it not a fact that all of the new buildings were constructed by outside labor ? Mr. Herr. Yes, sir; all the new buildings — no, sir; there is two new buildings that was not. There is two buildings done here that was not. The Chairman. If you had a proper detail and were permitted to keep boys long enough to teach them, you ought to be able to con- struct such buildings almost entirely by student labor ? Mr. Herr. Certainly; we could do that during the summer season if the boys were left here. The Chairman. The boys are entitled to that instruction? Mr. Herr. I think so; yes, sir. Representative Stephens. You think the outing system, then,is the reason why none of the boys can graduate in these industrial pursuits ? Mr. Here. I think undoubtedly that is the reason. Representative Stephens. Many of them do not return at all, I understand. , , . „ .. . „ The Chairman. Does the football work interfere with your work i Mr. Herr. Yes, it does to some extent. They are taken away from there, you know. TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM C. SHAMBATJGH. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You are the blacksmith here? Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir. ., , The Chairman. Do you teach blacksmithmg to the pupils * Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir; I do the general work for the school, too; yes, sir. 1208 CARLISLE INDIAN" SCHOOL. The Chairman. How many pupils do you instruct? Mr. Siiambaugh. Now, last month I had 26. The Chairman. Do they learn it pretty well? Mr. Shambaugh. Not the full blacksmithing. I do not pretend— I try to make them good, efficient helpers. The last year they got a number of applicants for boys to go out in shops for the summer, and they get the real work there of a general blacksmith. The Chairman. What length of time does your course contemplate ? Mr. Shambaugh. Three years — that is, out in the shop. That is what I served. The Chairman. What do they pay you here? Mr. Shambaugh. $800 a year. The Chairman. How many boys do they detail, you say? Mr. Shambaugh. I had 26 last month, I think. I think I had 13 in the forenoon and 13 in the afternoon. This month, now, I have had one or two more. The Chairman. Are you furnished with quarters here? Mr. Shambaugh. No, sir; I asked, but they refused to give me quarters. When I came here I came under the conditions that I was to get my $900, the same as the other men, and they said they did not have quarters; and, of course, Mr. Mercer left, and this man — I asked this man also, and he did not give me any quarters, and I did not get my raise either. The Chairman. Neither the wagon maker, the tinner, the painter, nor the carpenter get quarters ? Mr. Shambaugh. No, sir. I don't know whether the others asked. I know some of the rest did ask and were refused. The Chairman. What percentage of the boys detailed to you learn the trade ? Mr. Shambaugh. A very small percentage. The Chairman. Why ? Mr. Shambaugh. Of course, this last year or so it is not so bad, but heretofore they used to change the boys and take them out, and the boys had lost interest in the business, and only a boy that had aptitude would stick to it and learn the business. It is about three years now that they have had the outing system now, and they go out and earn a little money and also learn. There might be 8 or 10 boys I could mention that are carrying on business for themselves and working that have made a success of it. The Chairman. Does the superintendent appear to be interested in the boys who engage in this work ? Does he come around the shop there? Mr. Shambaugh. He walks through, but he seldom stops and gives any encouragement. He finds fault s metimes with things that are absolutely unnecessary, in my estimation. The Chairman. He does not give you much encouragement, or the boys either ? Mr. Shambaugh. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you know that the boys complain that they do not get enough to eat ? Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is their feeling generally, so far as you know it, toward the superintendent ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1209 Mr. Shambaugh. The majority of them have lost respect for their heads. The Chairman. And they manifest that ? Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Are there any buildings on the grounds belonging to the school that would be available for housing you gentlemen ? Mr. Shambaugh. I do not know. They have one right up here, next to the superintendent, that is empty, for friends. I don't know whether the friends have more money than the industrial men here or not. Down here is Mr. Warner, the athletic man; he has got one. Here is a nice place where a man has a whole house; that is, Mr. Stauffer. The Chairman. Room could be provided for both families ? Mr. Shambaugh. I think so. Up here is a nice house that the assistant superintendent used to be in. It would be a nice house for a man that had a family. Representative Stephens. Have any of you ever represented these facts to the authorities ? Mr. Shambaugh. When he put up the double cottage that the carpenter spoke of I asked them for quarters, and he said that he could not give individual quarters to the industrials at that time. TESTIMONY OF H. GARDNER. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. What are your duties here, Mr. Gardner? Mr. Gardner. Assistant carpenter. The Chairman. Do you give any instruction to the pupils ? Mr. Gardner. I do. The Chairman. Would it be practicable, in your judgment, for the carpenter and assistant carpenter with proper details of students to do the work on the buildings — the repair work and construction work? Mr. Gardner. New buildings ? I do. The Chairman. How is it now done, generally? Mr. Gardner. Here of late we have been hiring a good bit of outside help, and the boys are sent out on farms. That is about why we do not get our buildings accomplished. The Chairman. Who constructed the old buildings here ? Mr. Gardner. I did, sir. The Chairman. How was that done ? Was that done with student labor principally ? Mr. Gardner. The biggest part of it. The building you are in now was built by the boys. The Chairman. Who was superintendent at that time? Mr. Gardner. Gen. Pratt. The Chairman. How is the discipline compared to what it was under other administrations ? Mr. Gardner. Well, it is not what it ought to be. The Chairman. What is the feeling among the pupils toward the superintendent? Mr. Gardner. Well, I could hardly tell you that. 1210 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Do you know whether they respect him or not? Do you have any evidence of their feeling toward him ? Mr. Gardner. No; nothing more than I was told. I did not see it, but I was in the quarters here some time ago and they hooted at him. TESTIMONY OF HARRY B. LAMASON. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. What is your occupation here? Mr. Lamason. Mason. The Chairman. Brick mason ? Mr. Lamason. Brick, stone, plaster, and cement. The Chairman. Do you give instructions to students in this work? Mr. Lamason. I try to. The Chairman. How many are usually detailed to your depart- ment ? Mr. Lamason. Sometimes I have as high as IS or 20, and some- times none. The Chairman. How many could you properly handle? Mr. Lamason. As many as they could give me. The Chairman. Within what limit ? Mr. Lamason. Well, I could handle 50, if I had the room, very nicely. The Chairman. Have you had an opportunity of completing the training of the pupils assigned in this work? Do they take them out from your detail, as in other cases, and send them somewhere else? Mr. Lamason. That is it. The Chairman. Have you ever suggested to the management here that that was an injustice to you and the pupils, in that it gave you no opportunity of showing what your abihty for this training is, nor what the pupils could accomplish under it ? Mr. Lamason. I have had a great deal of trouble in that respect. The Chairman. To whom have you applied about it ? Mr. Lamason. The quartermaster, from whom I get most of my orders, and also the superintendent. The Chairman. What information do you get from them ? Mr. Lamason. It is not very encouraging. The Chairman. In your judgment, does the management of the school take a sincere interest in developing this work in this insti- tution ? Mr. Lamason. It is not instruction; it is a producer. Instruction is a secondary matter. The Chairman. Instead of using it chiefly to train the boys to learn the trade they use it for a source of profit to the institution ? Mr. Lamason. Yes. The Chairman. Have they ever hired outside masons and plas- terers to do the work you and the boys could have done ? Mr. Lamason. Not in the last two or three years. These cottages was all done by outside labor, and the school building. We could have done it. The Chairman. Do you know the relationship between the super- intendent and the pupils generally ? CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1211 Mr. Lamason. From my general experience, it has not been very pleasant. The Chairman. Do the pupils seem to respect him ? Mr. Lamason. Not very much. Representative Stephens. Do you mean to say the reason why so many boys are sent away from these trades to the country is because of the fact that they want the money for the school ? Mr. Lamason. No; I don't mean that. The outing system, in my line of business, is the finest thing they could get. I have applica- tions that they have refused to have go for $3 a day. One of them tells me that he is getting $4 a day. Representative Stephens. The outing agent interferes with the boys ? Mr. Lamason. He does in that respect. The Chairman. Why did he want them to take less than they were offered ? Do you know ? Mr. Lamason. Well, I can not tell you, unless it is this: He talked to me afterwards. He says, "I spent $1,000 and three years in school, and I don't think it is right for these boys to go out and make more than I make." That is the answer he made to me. TESTIMONY OF JOHN BOLTZ. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You are the shoemaker ? Mr. Boltz. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have you been shoemaker at the Carlisle School? Mr. Boltz. Since three years last December, about the 15th of the month. The Chairman. Do you give instruction to pupils in making shoes ? Mr. Boltz. Yes, sir. ' The Chairman. Do you also do repair work for the school ? Mr. Boltz. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you make shoes ? Mr. Boltz. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many pairs do you make m your shop in a given year % Mr. Boltz. I think, close on to 200 pair last year. The Chairman. How many boys are detailed to study shoemakmg ? Mr. Boltz. During last month, something like 11. The Chairman. They can not learn that business very quickly, can they ? How long does it take 1 Mr. Boltz. Of course, they could come and get an idea in a couple • of years, but they ought to have three years. The Chairman. How many have worked that long i Mr. Boltz. Very few. The Chairman. What per cent of those assigned to you i Mr. Boltz. I should say, of the 18, there would not be more than f ° TIi^ChTirmTn! 1 i/they gave you plenty of work and the work was encouraged so that the pupils took. hold of it and pursued it with interest for the purpose of making it a trade, could you do all the shoe work necessary for the school ? 1212 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Boltz. That is quite a hard matter for me to settle. Of course, if I hail more experienced boys we could make more. The Chairman. Would it not be a good plan to try to develop the work so as to do that '. Mr. Boltz. I think it would; yes, sir. The Chairman. How long do they let the boys stay there? Mr. Boltz. They make very frequent changes. The Chairman. Do they consult you ? Mr. Boltz. No; they do not. The Chairman. Do they come to you to find out what progress a boy is making before they change him? Do they sometimes take away your very best employees ? Mr. Boltz. Very often. That is where I think they make a very big mistake, by not consulting me before they make a change. The Chairman. To a man that confesses that he does not know anything about it, it would seem if they were trying to give instruc- tion they would not take anybody out of the work that was making rapid progress and had a chance to become skillful in the trade. Mr. Boltz. A certain boy I just had last month, he takes a big interest in shoemaking — they took him out, and the boy promised he would come back next month. That is very often the case, and that is a drawback in the shop. The Chairman. You get a salary of $660 ? Mr. Boltz. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You have to pay your rent? Mr. Boltz. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you get any supplies from the farm ? Mr. Boltz. No, sir. TESTIMONY OF ROBERT B. GEORGE. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You are the tinner here ? Mr. George. Yes. The Chairman. Have you a shop and do you give instruction to pupils in your work ? Mr. George. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many men can you instruct in that trade at a time ? Mr. George. Well, I had 16 last month. This month I am 2 short. The Chairman. Is that the capacity of your shop to instruct? Mr. George. It is according to my tools. I have not tools enough, in fact, for that. The Chairman. How long does it take to learn the tinning trade? Mr. George. They ought to be there three years. The Chairman. How long have you been there? Mr. George. Three years the first of last January. The Chairman. How many boys have you under you now that have been with you continuously or approximately so ? Mr. George. I have two boys that were with me part of last year. Then, of course, they went to the outing and stayed out. The Chairman. So that you have not had an opportunity of com- pleting anyone in that course? Mr. George. No, sir. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1213 The Chairman. Have you complained or suggested to the manage- ment of the school the inadvisability of this system that makes it impossible for you to show your efficiency as instructor ? Mr. George. I spoke of it to the quartermaster. The Chairman. What does he say? Mr. George. Well, we don't get any satisfaction from him. He seems to think the plan is to keep them moving about. Especially when we have some big work in the summer time and not many boys, I would go to him and make a real complaint and tell him we would have to have more. The Chairman. Most of the boys you had last year you have al- ready said are on farms? Mr. George. Yes, sir. TESTIMONY OF R. C. RENNEKER. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. Do you run the bake shop for the school? Mr. Renneker. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In connection with that do you do any work in instructing the pupils? Mr. Eenneker. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Has the shop capacity enough to make enough bread to supply the school? Mr. Renneker. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much bread do you make daily ? Mr. Renneker. Well, it runs different. Some days I could average about 1,000 loaves a day, and other days about 1,500 to 1,600 a day. Last week I had two days that it ran 1,500 or 1,600, and the other days 1,000 loaves, but this week it ran three days 1,500. I can bake more. It is just as easy to bake more. The Chairman. Do you bake the amount you are instructed to bake, or do you Mr. Renneker. That is the thing. I generally do the best that I know how. I figure on so many pounds of bread, or so many loaves to a meal. The Chairman. Who determines how many loaves shall be baked for a meal ? Mr. Renneker. We run it this way. One day last week the dining- room matron — she will say "We had bread left over for dinner." The next day it may be they will be a way short. It is hard to reg- ulate. The Chairman. Are you not furnished a regular ration to bake and prepare for the tables ? Mr. Renneker. Well, they are telling me right along that I am running over on the flour. So I estimate one day what I should do. He says, "You are only supposed to use 600 and some a day." Well, they were kicking for more bread and I was trying to get along the best I knew how. The Chairman. There was great complaint ? Mr. Renneker. Oh, yes; there was complaint about the bread and yet I was still issuing more. And then when I would hand my report in they would say, "I don't know what we will do. Your are going 1214 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. over your allowance." Last month it ran, I guess, 300 pounds over the allowance. . . The Chairman. On the one hand the pupils were complaining greatly that they were not getting enough bread, and on the other hand the quartermaster was complaining that you were consuming too much ? I suppose it is needless to ask you if you were baking all the flour you were consuming ? Mr. Renneker. Oh, yes, sir; I was cooking from 700 pounds a day to 1,100 pounds a day. I averaged some days 1,100 pounds. This week I averaged three days 700 pounds. The Chairman. What caused you to bake more recently ? Mr. Renneker. The dining-room matron said Mr. Linnen said they were not getting enough bread and they should have more. So I said, "We will give them all they can eat." I don't know what to do. Senator Lane. Haven't you got a regular ration of bread? Mr. Renneker. Just the allowance of flour. Senator Lane. But you knew definitely how many loaves that will make ? You know how many slices it will cut ? Mr. Renneker. A barrel of flour will average 300 loaves. This flour is weak— it is county flour. It does not produce the bread that western flour does. Western flour produces maybe 310 to 312 or 315 loaves to a barrel. This runs sometimes not 300. Senator Lane. It is short in gluten ? The Chairman. What else do you bake besides bread? Mr. Renneker. Now, I bake gingerbread, corn bread, and pies. The Chairman. How long have you been doing that ? Mr. Renneker. That I have been doing all along, and rolls. I always baked rolls until about January. The quartermaster said to give them rolls, but it does not seem to make any effect on the bread. It seems to me to take just as much bread. They seem to carry them out in their pockets. So he said, "Don't make any more rolls until we catch up with the flour." Well, I have been catching up, and I have not made any yet. We made rolls on Wednesday, corn bread on Thursday, gingerbread on Friday, and pies on Saturday. The Chairman. How many pies do you make on Saturday. Mr. Renneker. To-day I made 155. The Chairman. Is that the regular number you have been making ? Mr. Renneker. One hundred and fifty I was running. The Chairman. What kind of pies were those? Mr. Renneker. To-day I made plum pie. The Chairman. I think I can testify that they were very good. Would 150 pies go around to the pupils and employees? Mr. Renneker. Just the students. The Chairman. How many students are there here? Mr. Renneker. Now, I don't really know; I think 816. The Chairman. Eight hundred and sixteen pupils. That would not make a slice around, would it ? Mr. Renneker. They are only figuring on 509, or something like that. The Chairman. So they get pie once a week, ginger bread once a week, corn bread once a week ? Mr. Renneker. And rolls; they always did until January. The Chairman. And the rest of the bread served is light bread ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1215 Mr. Renneker. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Have you turned out any accomplished bakers, who have learned their trade from you ? Mr. Eennekee. I tell you the boys here can not go quite far enough to go m a shop and run it. My boys, two of them, was here when I came, and they asked me to get them work, and I got both of them work m bake shops last summer, and the summer before, and thev are holding their jobs. Representative Stephens. Have you heard any complaints among the students about not having enough food to eat ? Mr. Rennekee. Oh, lots of them. Representative Stephens. For how many months or years ? Mr. Rennekee. I have been here a year last May, and ever since I have been here I have heard them complain for more bread. My shop is not altogether sanitary for baking. Representative Caeter. What is your judgment ? Do you think the boys were getting enough bread f Mr. Rennekee. I really don't know. The boys stick the bread in their pockets, maybe half of them, and the other half won't get the bread. They carry the bread out of the dining room, and there is where they run short of bread. The matron tells me if they would not carry that bread out of the dining room they probably would have enough to eat. Senator Lane. How many students are there ? Mr. Rennekee. Eating in the dining room ? Five hundred and sixty, they tell me. Senator Lane. How many altogether ? Mr. Rennekee. Really I couldn't say. The Chaieman. Eight hundred and sixteen, somebody says. Senator Lane. Where do the rest of them eat ? Mr. Rennekee. At the hospital and the teachers' quarters. The Chaieman. Don't you bake bread for them? Mr. Rennekee. No; they get flour from me. They feed the students at the teachers' quarters, but I issue them flour, about 100 pounds a month. In January they got 100 pounds a month. I don't know how much they are allowed, but when the quartermaster tells me to I give it to them. Thereupon at 6.30 p. m. a recess was taken. AFTEE EECESS. The commission reassembled at 8.15 o'clock p. m. at the New Wellington Hotel, Carlisle, Pa. TESTIMONY OF MISS VIRGINIA PENROSE. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chaieman. You reside in Carlisle ? Miss Peneose. Yes. The Chairman. Are you acquainted with Supt. Friedman? Miss Peneose. I am. The Chaieman. Are you familiar with conditions existing at the Carlisle School? Miss Penrose. I am. 1216 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Do you know the present conditions in the school with reference to discipline? Are you in the habit of visiting the school '< Miss Penrose. Oh, yes. I go out quite often. We have guests staying with us, and it is one of the things we have that we take them out to see. I was out there only last fall. I went through the kitchens. My guests and I went out there, and we went through the kitchens just before they served dinner, and my aunt made the remark how fortunate those men were to have such good food. The Chairman. Were you in the dining room at the time the meals were being served ? Miss Penrose. We went through the kitchen before, and then when the meal was being served we were in the dining room, and my aunt made the remark how fortunate those men were. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not the complaint is made that the food is insufficient in quantity ? Miss Penrose. I have not heard it. I have only heard it from the "fanatics" I call them. Senator Lane. How long since ? Miss Penrose. Only recently; only since this last trouble. Senator Lane. Do you eat oatmeal gruel for breakfast? Miss Penrose. Every morning. Senator Lane. Then let me ask you something. The oatmeal ration there is 5 pounds of oatmeal for 100 people. Miss Penrose. Is it gruel? Senator Lane. No; it is put with enough water to make a porridge for 100 people. Would that strike you really, as a housekeeper, as being enough ? Miss Penrose. Well, I hardly know. I think if they made it very soft, I think it would be. Senator Lane. You think that would be enough? Miss Penrose. Of course, I only supply for a few people — just two or three. Senator Lane. Now, then, a half pound of 20-cent tea — you don't buy that kind, do you ? Miss Penrose. We buy 50-cent tea. Senator Lane. 20-cent tea, Oolong, black, for 100 people Miss Penrose. Well, I don't know. I have an aunt who is very rich, in Philadelphia, and she buys what they call "charity" tea from Christison in New York for 25 cents a pound. She uses that. Senator Lane. Would that strike you as being good rich tea? Miss Penrose. I should not think it would be; no. Of course I could not tell, because I do not drink any tea. I could tell you more about coffee, perhaps. Senator Lane. That attracted my attention; and when you spoke about the meal being well prepared Miss Penrose. I saw what they had for dinner that day. They had very good meat, and potatoes The Chairman. Do you know how often they have potatoes ? Miss Penrose. No. The Chairman. Do you know how often they have meat ? Miss Penrose. I thought they had meat every day. Senator Lane. They cooked up to-day 415 pounds of meat for 615 people. Now, I used to be superintendent of a hospital. I CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1217 cooked for 600 people — just the same number. I cooked 600 pounds, and they used meat for two meals. Miss Penrose. Are not things a good deal more expensive ? Senator Lane. Yes, they are; but that does not satisfy your appetite. The Chaikman. You were stating a while ago, before the com- mission met, that you would give something about the circumstances that led up to the disturbances. If you know what they are, I would be glad to have you state. Miss Penrose. The statement was what I had gathered of these women that I think are fanatics, and they started up because they are against the Roman Catholics. The Chairman. You think all the trouble, in the school is due to religious dispute? Miss Penrose. I think it is. I wish to say another thing. When they found Mr. Friedman went to the Episcopal Church last year, I think it made it more so. The Chairman. Do you know how many of the children are Catholics ? As a matter of fact, the number of Catholic pupils in the school appears to be only about one-fourth of the pupils. Miss Penrose. I feel myself that it would be a great deal better for them to go to the Catholic Church — the Indians. That is what I told Miss Richards when she asked me last year. She said, "Do you go out to the Indian school and take any interest in the boys and get them to go to your church?" I said, "No." I said, "What are you doing with them at your house ?" "What right have you ?" She said, "Well, I am going to keep him from going to the Catholic Church." I said, "Well, if he wants to go to the Catholic Church, let him go there." The Chairman. You think it would be well for him to go to church somewhere ? Miss Penrose. They would do anything against the Catholic Church. The Chairman. Who is that ? Miss Penrose. Miss Jean Richards. The Chairman. Who is she ? Miss Penrose. She lives here in town. She lives on West Pomiord Street. I used to see quite a little of them; I used to go down there; and the older sister, Miss Ann Richards, I was very fond of; but I got into such a violent discussion I made up my mind I would never go into the house again, if I could help it. The Chairman. Are you personally familiar with conditions at the school ? What opportunity have you had of knowing ? _ Miss Penrose. Well, I have been out there. I have been a visitor. The Chairman. How long ago was the last time ? Miss Penrose. To go through the school ? The Chairman. Yes; to make observations? Miss Penrose. I was out there last October. I went through the school, as I said, taking my friends out there. The Chairman. Have you ever examined the beds ( Miss Penrose. No; because I never went mto those quarters, except just simply to pass through different departments. 35601— pt 11—14 IT 1218 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Do you know what the state of feeling is between the pupils generally and the superintendent '? Miss Penrose. No; I do not. I have only heard recently of this feeling, since the Indians have been persuaded by certain parties in town to sign a petition against Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. What people are you speaking of? Miss Penrose. These fanatics, the Richards and all those fanatics. The Chairman. T can not be expected to know all the fanatics, you know. Senator Lane. And you think they interfere ? Miss Penrose. I think they have interfered decidedly. Senator Lane. And they are not Catholics ? Miss Penrose. No; they are Presbyterians, the bluest kind. Senator Lane. We had not heard of this. Miss Penrose. Dr. Walker went down to this auxiliary last winter that I went to in Mechanicsburg. He said he felt really that the superintendent favored the Catholic churches. Senator Lane. The Catholic children out there complain that they are not getting theprivileges of their church. Miss Penrose. This is what Dr. Walker said. He said he thought they entirely sympathized with the Catholics, and allowed the Catholics — ■ — - The Chairman. They complain the other way. Miss Penrose. He states the girls feel as though they are cut out. The girls are not allowed to go to the early morning mass, because they are not allowed to have a chaperone, and they could not get a volunteer to take the girls in to church in the early morning. Senator Lane. Something of that sort. Now, there is out there, I will say to you, a great deal of dissatisfaction among the students against the management of the institution. How it arose we do not know. Miss Penrose. I think it is incited by these people in town. Representative Stephens. Have you seen any drunkenness among the pupils ? Miss Penrose. I have never seen one. Senator Lane. Now, last night there were seven boys in the guard- house locked up for drunkenness. Miss Penrose. It is probably very hard to control. Representative Stephens. You do not know anything about the moral conditions? Miss Penrose. No, I do not. The Chairman. Do you know anything about the academic or vocational work that is done ? Miss Penrose. I have been through the school just to see the school. I have only been through the school to see the children doing their work, like dressmaking, and things like that. They seem to be doing well. That is all I can tell you. The Chairman. Are the people in the town attached to the Car- lisle school generally ? Miss Penrose. Yes, I think they arc attached to it. They are rather proud of it ; they take their friends out to see it. The Chairman. Thank you very much. We are very glad to have had your statement. CABLISLB INDIAN SCHOOL. 1219 TESTIMONY OF MRS. EMMA H. FOSTER. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You are one of the teachers at the Carlisle Insti- tute ? Mrs. Foster. I am. The Chairman. How long have you been employed there? Mrs. Foster. Eleven years next September. The Chairman. Are you familiar with conditions at the school and with the progress that is being made in the work generally ' Mrs. Foster. Why, I think so. The Chairman. What is your assignment ? Mrs. Foster. I have the senior class. The Chairman. You are teacher of the senior class ? Mrs. Foster. Yes. The Chairman. What salary do you get? Mrs. Foster. I get $810. I get $810 for teaching in the academic department, and since last September I have had charge of the Y. W. C. A. work, and I am paid $15 a month for that. The Chairman. That is out of the athletic fund ? Mrs. Foster. I do not know. The Chairman. I would be very glad to have you go ahead and make a statement as to what you know concerning conditions out there ? Mrs. Foster. In my own way? The Chairman. Yes. Mrs. Foster. In what respect? The Chairman. You prefer to bo questioned? Mrs. Foster. Yes; I want to do the right thing, and I wish you would ask me questions. The Chairman. What is the condition of the discipline in the school ? Mrs. Foster. Why, I have been there eleven years under the three superintendents, and always during that time— without cast- ing any reflections on the superintendents at all— we have had more or less immorality, we have had runaways, drunkenness, and all those things more or less. The Chairman. What is the condition in the school now com- pared with other administrations with reference to discipline ? Mrs. Foster. I was under Gen. Pratt two years, and Gen. Pratt was fortunate in having a splendid disciplinarian who was intensely loyal to him Mr. Thompson. He had a personality that made the children fear him ? The Chairman. Did they respect him? Mrs. Foster. I think they did. The Chairman. Do the pupils in the school generally respect the present superintendent ? Mrs. Foster. Yes, they do — well, let me go back. Up to De- cember sometime the school was harmonious, and we were all happy ; and we were congratulating ourselves on the way things were going. Suddenly there were rumors that the children were getting up peti- tions, and they were unhappy and doing all sorts of things. I know Indian children. If I talk too long I don't know whether Twill say too many things — but I will go on in my own way. 1220 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. You know, wo have had the measles. The children were quaran- tined, and they became restless. They naturally crave excitement — they have had a great deal of it — and it seems to me it was more for excitement than anything else. When Mr. Friedman came there the children seemed to like him, and of course there were murmurs every once in a while. There were under the three superintendents for that matter, if anyone listened to them. And they were growing in respect for Mm until just before the holidays. What brought about that change I do not know; I could not swear to that. I sur- mise, but I could not swear to that. I do know that I have heard employees speak disrespectfully of him. I have heard people call him "Moses" before the children. The Chairman. You mean employees there at the school ? Mrs. Foster. Yes; I have heard Miss Canfield speak of him as "Moses." I have heard Mr. Whitwell find fault with him and throw all the responsibility on him and speak as though he were hampered and could not have his own way about anything at all, right before the children, and of course the children are very susceptible to those influences. So of course the discontent has grown. The Chairman. There is now a feeling of hostility between the superintendent and the pupils quite generally? Mrs. Foster. Quite generally, but if they feel they are not listened to — I speak from long years of experience The Chairman. I do not care to argue it; I am simply asking about the facts. Mrs. Foster. Yes; that is recent. The Chairman. You think it is due to efforts on the part of em- ployees of the school to arouse them in insurrection ? Mrs. Foster. I think it has a great deal to do with it; and I think that that atmosphere of opposition, that they can feel at once, has influenced them. The Chairman. How do the girls get along with the matron ? Mrs. Foster. They find a great deal of thought because she wants to do right by them. The Chairman. You think she is right and they are wrong. Mrs. Foster. I do; I do. She may be a little hasty sometimes, but she has their interest at heart, and she is trying to bring order out of chaos. There is no doubt about that. The Chairman. Has she succeeded, in your judgment ? Mrs. Foster. She has, up to Christmas time when this discontent arose. The Chairman. When did this trouble begin ? Mrs. Foster. Just about the holidays. The Chairman. Up until the holidays conditions were fairly satis- factory ? Mrs. Foster. I say, we were congratulating ourselves upon peace- ful conditions. The school had started right, and we were generally quite happy. The Chairman.. What is the general character of the student body there with reference to being orderly or disorderly ? Mrs. Foster. Why, they are orderly. The Chairman. Are Indian pupils easily controlled or difficult to control ? OABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1221 Mrs Foster. Oh, easily controlled. They have the greatest sense ot justice. I have never sent a pupil to the principal myself. Never until the last few days have I felt any opposition in my schoolroom Now, Rose Lyons and some of the girls have been sent for to come down to the office. I do not know what it is, but certainly they have changed. It is the first time in 22 years that I have ever had such an experience as that. The Chairman. When was the first time you began to discover opposition ? Mrs. Foster. Not strong opposition; it was just the girls. Three or four of them— Marguerite Chilson, Rose Lyons, and one or two others- showed a difference in their manner, and yet at the same time they acted a little ashamed of it. The Chairman. Do you have any trouble controlling your pupils? Mrs. Foster. I never have had. ' I think they are the easiest ckil- dren to control. I think discipline is whatever the head of the depart- ment — the attitude of the head of the department toward the children. It takes patience and considerable vigilance. The Chairman. Do you think Mr. Friedman is affectionate toward the pupils ? Mrs. Foster. I am positive he has their interest at heart. The Chairman. I asked 3 T ou if he was affectionate toward the pupils. Mrs. Foster. Yes; I think he has an affection for the pupils. He is not a demonstrative man. Representative Carter. You say you think the pupils are wholly to blame in their trouble with Miss Ridenour ? Mrs. Foster. Wholly to blame? Representative Carter. Yes. Mrs. Foster. I tell you, I think like this, if I may go back. The change from Miss Gaither to Miss Ridenour was very great. They are entirely different personalities. Miss Gaither is fond of a joke. In the first place, I want you to understand that I am ver}^ fond of Miss Gaither, but she is not the disciplinarian that Miss Ridenour is. When Miss Ridenour first came they naturally resented the manner she took with them, because she would be obeyed. I do not hear them myself, but I know she has had trouble with them and they were disrespectful. Representative Carter. She has had to inflict corporal punish- ment upon quite a good many of them, has she not ? Mrs. Foster. I never knew it. Representative Carter. We got that from her herself. Mrs. Foster. It has not come to me. I think that is Rose Whip- per. She is a full-blooded Sioux girl. Representative Carter. Do you know an3^thing about the trouble she had with Julia Hardin ? Mrs. Foster. Chdy from hearsay. She did not come to me, but Rose did. Rose came to me and wept bitterly. I said, "Rose, were you not in the wrong too ?" And she saw it as I did. Representative Carter. Without criticizing either side, what do you think about corporal punishment for grown girls? Mrs. Foster. I have a daughter of my own, and I have never touched her, nor would I permit anyone else to do so; but I have never been tried that way. I do not know— of course, I think it is an 1222 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. indignity, but when a girl herself owns up she needed it it seems to me it is the right thing. Representative Carter. How do you feel toward a person who does inflict corporal punishment'? Mrs. Foster. I would not have it with my own daughter, but my daughter was brought up differently. I have heard these children say, "I like people that are strict." Indians very often say that. They like people that are strict, if that strictness is tempered with justice. But when Miss Ridenour came, to go back to that, most of the girls were fond of Miss Gaither, and they resented the change; but Miss Ridenour is a woman who is trying to do right. I do not see how anyone can look at her and doubt that. She has an affection for the girls. She has made a wonderful change in those quarters. Oh, I certainly feel this. I don't know what the outcome is going to be at all, but I certainly feel this strongly, that it would be a dreadful thing to take away Miss Ridenour or Mr. Friedman now. The child- ren would have a cinch on the situation. They are sensing that now, saying "See what we can do." Mr. Friedman is a clean man, and he has improved perfectly wonderfully since he came. He would be a hard man to succeed. Representative Stephens. Is there any complaint about their not getting enough to eat? Mrs. Foster. Oh, they do that at every school. Under Mr. Pierce there were the bitterest complaints. That is the general complaint at every Indian school. Representative Stephens. They always have good bread over here, and they have plenty of it'? Mrs. Foster. I have never heard them say that they did not have enough bread; 1 never have. They often make fun of the gravy. Representative Stephens. Do you know how often they get butter ? Mrs. Foster. I think only twice a week. Representative Stephens. Potatoes ? Mrs. Foster. No; I don't know. They have had more vegetables under tnis administration than ever before. Representative Stephens. They get meat, and bread, and broth, as a rule ? Mrs. Foster. And gravy, always gravy; and pie certain days. The Chairman. Thank you, Mrs. Foster. We are glad to have had your testimony. TESTIMONY OF ME. GLENN S. WARNER. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You are what is called the ''coach" ? Mr. Warner. I am athletic director of the Carlisle Indian School. The Chairman. How long have you filled that position ? Mr. Warner. I came to the school in 1899, when Gen. Pratt was there, and stayed there until he left in the spring of 1904. Then I went to Cornell in the same capacity, and came back to Carlisle in January, 190 7, and was there one year under Maj. Mercer. Then Mr. Friedman came there, and 1 have, been there ever since. The Chairman. The athletic work at the college is kept, in lar^e degree, separate from the institute proper, is it not ? CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1223 Mr. Warner. Well, the athletics are managed by the athletic association under the supervision of a superintendent. The Chairman. What is the athletic association ? Mr. Warner. It is composed of the boys who have won their school letter — the ' 'C" we call it. The Chairman. What does that mean? Mr. Warner. That means that they have represented the school in an intercollegiate competition; that is, they have been on one of the teams. It is composed of those boys, together with the super- intendent, the athletic director, and the secretary and treasurer. The Chairman. It is a corporation, is it not? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. When I first came there there was no association; it was called the athletic association, but Gen. Pratt was the association. Then when Maj. Mercer came there it was formally organized and adopted a constitution and by-laws, etc., and since Mr. Friedman has been there it has been incorporated. The Chairman. Did you prompt or inspire the incorporation? Mr. Warner. Why, we talked it over The Chairman. I mean, did ;\ou suggest it? Mr. Warner. No, sir. The Chairman. How did you come to incorporate ? What was the idea ? Mr. Warner. Why, most of the associations we have relations with at colleges and universities are incorporated athletic associa- tions, and it gives them a little more standing and enables them to transact their business in a little more businesslike manner. The Chairman. You are employed, I assume, by the athletic association ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You have no direct connection with the Govern- ment whatever ? Mr. Warner. No more than I have to conduct the athletics there under the supervision of the superintendent. The Chairman. What are the sources of income of the association ? Mr. Warner. Why, they are practically — well, all the sources, I would say, are from the receipts of games which we play out of town. The Chairman. 1 wish vou would explain to us how those games are handled and how the fund is accounted for. Mr. Warner. Why, I arrange the games with the athletic directors or managers of the various college teams, and agreements are made as to how the receipts shall be divided. Sometimes we play for a guaranty for a certain amount and sometimes with a guaranty and an option of a percentage of the gate receipts. Sometimes we have just a percentage of the gate receipts and no option. The Chairman. You have been in charge of that work how long ? Mr. Warner. I have been in charge of it since 1899, with excep- tion of 1904, 1905, 1906. The Chairman. Have you played many games that you did not come out on ? That you lost money on ? Mr. Warner. The only games that we lose on are the home games.. We do not charge our students or employees any admission, and of late years we have had nil our home competitions free to the general public out there. 1224 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chaieman. And always when you go away from home you make something? Mr. Warner. I would not say always. The football team does, but the other teams — football is the money-making game and it finances our whole athletics. Of course, lacrosse and track athletics are losing sports. It is all outgo. Quite often we make trips at a little loss- Senator Lane. How many football games do you play in a season, on an average? Mr. Warner. About 11 or 12. The Chairman. You go pretty well all over the country? Mr. Warner. Of late years we have had no western trips. While we play quite a number of games away from home, they are with few exceptions, games where we either leave the morning of the game and get home the same night, or we leave in the afternoon of Friday and always get back either Saturday night or Sunday. So, with the exception of one or two trips on the schedule, the boys lose very little time on that account. Senator Lane. I want to ask you there, do you make a search through the Indian reservations and comb the Indians over for good material ? Mr. Warner. No, sir; that has been charged against us. Senator Lane. You never heard of it? Mr. Warner. Newspaper reporters follow us who are interested in other colleges, and they insinuate that we try to induce fellows to come here. As a matter of fact, I have never made a trip in the West to look for athletic material, and there has been nothing of that kind done. The Chairman. How is your material chosen? Mr. Warner. We take the boys that come here and try them out. Every boy is entitled to come out and try and see what he can do. Our boys have had practically no experience in lacrosse — our sports are now lacrosse, track athletics, and loot-ball; they are all practically developed right there. The Chairman. I suppose when you get a good man you hold him as long as you can on the team ? Mr. Warner. I think the records will show that the average length of service for the last five years would be less than two years. The Chairman. I am not talking about the average; I am talking about the exceptional cases. Mr. Warner. There were exceptional cases in years gone by, before we adopted eligibility rules, where boys played on the team five or six years, but they were not held there for that purpose. Boys used to stay at the school longer than they do now. They came there, and were induced to stay there until they graduated. Since 1907 we have had no boy on the team over four years. The Chairman. Do you personally select the players, or how are they selected ? Mr. Warner. Yes; I have the final say as to who shall play. Ihe Chairman. How many boys during the last year were in the various football squads, for instance, and trying to get on the team « Mr. Warner. I think there were about 60 this last year. The Chairman. Coming back to the question of the finances of the association, how do you settle with the representatives of the other CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1225 teams when a game is played ? What is the process ? Do they pay you by check ? Mr. Warner. As a rule, they do. As a rule, in those college games, of course, you rely — that is, they are college players and college men you are dealing with. You rely upon their honesty and squareness, and we never have a man on the gate. Sometimes they settle right after the game if they have the receipts figured out and all that, but as a rule they send a statement of the number of seats sold, at what price, and total receipts, and our share, and send us a check. The Chairman. Payable to whom ? Mr. Warner. To the athletic association; sometimes payable to me as athletic director. The Chairman. What do you do with it? Mr. Warner. If it is payable. to me I indorse it over to the treasurer of the athletic association. The Chairman. And it is deposited with him ? Mr. Warner. He deposits it. The Chairman. Do you know how much you took in last year ? Mr. Warner. Well, just an estimate. I have not figured it up, but I would say our total receipts were around $25,000. The Chairnman. Did you have a good season, a successful season. Mr. Warner. We had a good season as far as the record of the team was concerned, but I think the receipts were a little smaller than the year before. We had bad weather some of the days. The Chairman. Who controls the disbursement of that fund, Mr. Warner 1 Mr. Warner. Why, the executive committee of the athletic association. The Chairman. Who are they ? Mr. Warner. The superintendent, and Mr. Miller, and myself — the officers of the association. Mr. Friedman is not an officer, but he is an honorary member of the association. The Chairman. Do you three determine what accoonts should be paid, what bills should be paid ? Mr. Warner. Yes. The Chairman. Do you have meetings to do that or is it purely informal. Mr. Warner. Well, we are all right there in the office, and it there is anything special comes up — of course, there are little bills— we all know they have to be paid. The Chairman. Of course, your salary comes out of that fund, I take it ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are there any other employees paid out ot that fund? . , , . . Mr. Warner. The treasurer of the association— part ot his salary comes out of that, I think. He gets a very small salary. The Chairman. He gets $35 a month? Mr. Warner. Yes. , Senator Lane. Practically, you are the executive? They depend upon you, don't they? Mr Warner No; of course, we consult together. It there are things of the ordinary routine, of course, there is no discussion; but any important matter, why, we discuss it. Now, as an instance of 1226 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. lliut, wo had just a short while ago a letter from a former player of the team who was in very hard luck and lost all his money and had a bad leg and he wanted to go to the hospital, and he thought that the athletic association might help him out. Well, we discussed that as to whether an act of charity it would be wise to do that. There are things like that that come up. The Chairman. There is paid to Mrs. Foster, a teacher, out of the athletic fund, $15 a month, and to Mr. K. L. Mann, another teacher, $15 a month for Y. M. C. A. work. Mr. Warner. We pay Mrs. Foster. Mr. Mann did have charge of that work until he was relieved from it on account of his evil influence with the boys. The Chairman. What do you mean by that, "his evil influence" ? Mr. Warner. Mr. Friedman found that he was a bad influence with the boys, coming in late at nights and talking about the girls he had been out with, and giving the boys cigarettes, and things like that. The Chairman. Did he drink with them ? Mr. Warner. I do not know that he did. The Chairman. How did he ever come to be chosen for that kind of work ? Who chose him ? Mr. Warner. I do not know who chose him, but he was rather a new man there and was not very well known, and he was given that position. Senator Lane. Did he have a bad influence in the way you speak of ? Mr. Warner. Oh, yes. Senator Lane. You know that he did ? Mr. Warner. Yes; Mr. Friedman wrote him a letter and called his attention to all these things, and moved him out of the athletic quarters, where he had been staying, where he had been with the boys, and he never answered the letter and practically admitted by not replying that it was all so. Some of the boys told Mr. Friedman about it. The Chairman. What is the object of paying nominal salaries to all the ministers in the town for services there ? Mr. Warner. Well, I do not know that I could — they have serv- ices in town, you see, and the boys and girls that belong in their churches, they could go in to town to their churches ; they could go in to Sunday school, but it has always been a custom, even in Gen. Pratt's time and Maj. Mercer's time. It has always been the custom to have afternoon services at the school, and the preachers have always been paid. When Gen. Pratt was here I think they were paid out of a charity fund which he had. The Chairman. He had a man he called "chaplain," didn't he? Mr. Warner. He had one man part of the time, and others at other times. Mr. Diffenderfer was — he had him here quite a while. He was hero under Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. What I mean is, he did not haA T e all of them at once. What I urn trying to find out is, What is vour idea of having them all? Mr. Warner. Oh, instead of having one denomination I think it was thought that if you would have the preachers from the different denominations alternate it would be a variation in the service to the students, and give all the denominations the same recognition. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1227 The Chairman. I find in looking over that account a good many items for funds paid to Mr. Hugh Miller and Mr. J. L. Martin for serv- ices as correspondents. Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How is that handled, and what services do they perform ? Mr. Warner. They do a lot of extra work in sending out photo- graphs and stories about the football teams during the football season. As most of our games are played on the percentage basis, of course, all the publicity we can get in the newspapers, especially in the cities where we are going to play, swells the receipts; and for the extra work that they do along that line, and for photographs and extra work, they have been allowed — that was allowed by Mr. Mercer be- fore Mr. Friedman came here — I think they wore paid more at that time than they have been in late years. The Chairman. I also find a number of items showing payments of various amounts to clipping bureaus. What is the idea about that? Mr. Warner. Why, it is customary with all teams of importance to have clippings. For instance, during the football season I have a certain bureau send me all the clippings pertaining to the Carlisle Indian School football team, and it gives me an idea what is being said, and if anything is being said that is detrimental and untruo, it gives me a chance to deny it. And it gives me a chance to learn what other teams are doing in preparing for our games. Those clip- pings are always turned over to the boys for them to read. The Chairman. I see that an attorney, Mi-. John M. Ray, receives about $100 per annum for auditing the books of the athletic asso- ciation. What service does he perform? Mr. Warner. Well, we thought that to assure ourselves that the athletic books were kept in a businesslike and straightforward manner, it would be well to have an outside man of good standing in the community, recognized as an honest man, etc'., to audit those accounts and see that they were all right. The Chairman. Do you know what he does when he audits the accounts — what he actually does? Do you know how he does his work ? Mr. Warner. He checks up, just the same as Air. Lmnen did when he went over the accounts. Senator Lane. Does he give you a report ? Mr Warner. He just signs — at the end of each month he says, "Audited by John M. Ray." The Chairman. He does not undertake to go behind the receipts in the office there to ascertain whether or not the amount reported in the books there is the amount actually paid by another association to your association ? . . Mr. Warner. Well, of course, a statement comes in by the official in charge of the other team, and he has that. He sends that with the checks. • ^ T TTT , iU The Chairman. I see also an item lor J. W. T\ etzel, who is another attorney, and Wetzel & Hambleton, for $50 and $100. What services do thev perform? Mr Warner Now, as to that, I do not exactly remember, but 1 think there was a case— some girl got into trouble; something m 1228 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. connection with that ; sonic legal services that they did, I think . Well, I think Mr. Friedman had them look over my contract. The Chairman. Yon do not know what it was for definitely? Mr. Warner. No: I could not explain that. The Chairman. What salaries are paid the members of the team? Any ? Mr. Warner. No, sir. The Chairman. What do they receive that other pupils do not get ? Mr. Warner. Well, at the close of the season the boys are given a $'25 suit of clothes and a $25 overcoat; that is, the first team. And the first team also get a souvenir of some kind. Senator Lane. Is that charged in? Mr. Warner. Tt is on the books: yes, sir. That custom was introduced by Gen. Pratt when I first went there, and it was reestab- lished under Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. That is in addition to their regular athletic cloth- ing, which, of course, you buy and pay for? Mr. Warner. Yes. The Chairman. Now, you pay the transportation of the football team and the necessary attendants when they go out to play games out of the athletic funds, of course ? Mr. W\rner. Yes, sir. The Chairman. 1 see a good many items of expenses for the super- intendent in various places, which I assume were — many of them, at least — while lie was attending the games. Mr. Warner. Some of them were, I should think; yes, sir. The Chairman. How were those audited ? By whom ? Air. Warner. How were they audited ? The Chairman. Yes: how do you know the amounts are correct? Mr. Warner. He puts in a statement of what the expenses con- sisted of. The Chairman. He does not file an itemized statement? Mr. Warner. Well, I think they are pretty well itemized. I know thev are much more so than his predecessors. The Chairman. Who would know whether they were itemized or not? Mr. Warner. You can tell by looking The Chairman. The man that keeps the accounts savs they are not itemized. Who approves them ? Mr. Warner. Well, T sign the checks for it. The Chairman. Now, I find a number of items there for transpor- tation books furnished to Mr. Friedman at the expense of the athletic association. How does the athletic association come to be furnishing those mileage books ? Mr. Warner. Some of them are for those trips. The Chairman. He is supposed to use those only in the trips in the interest of athletics? Mr. Warner. I think he uses them for other purposes — students being sent away when they have no money, or something of that kind. The Chairman. Has your attention ever been called to the fact that on a number of occasions when he used those books, paid for by the athletic association, that he also charged in his account ren- CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1229 dered to the Government, as superintendent of the school, the same items ? Mr. Warner. No; I never heard of that. Senator Lane. Before you leave that, the athletic association pays his traveling expenses by issuing him these mileage books, and they are not to be used for any other purpose except in the interest of the athletic association, are they? Legitimately, I mean? You inti- mated he used them for other purposes. Mr. Warner. Only occasionally, for a charity case, or something like that. I know he has used athletic association mileage to bring a party of Indians from Washington to commencement, and things like that that would not be legitimate Government expense, but he would do it from the athletic association funds. Senator Lane. Has he been authorized to do that by the asso- ciation ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know the amount of money that is spent annually for his expenses and the expenses of himself and friends and family out of the athletic funds? Mr. Warner. No; I never figured it up. I think it is very small; very small, compared to what his predecessors used to use. The Chairman. Have you examined the books to see whether that is true? Mr. Warner. Oh, yes, sir. The Chairman. How does it compare with the amounts his prede- cessors used ? Mr. Warner. It is much less. I could not quote the figures, you know. Mr. Friedman, I think, has used the funds of the association for himself very little. I think occasionally he has taken his wife on trips. Senator Lane. Out of this fund? Mr. Warner. With the athletic association; yes. Senator Lane. Did the others do it to a still greater extent ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Then, it is customary ? Mr. Warner. It has been; yes, sir. Senator Lane. How do you account for that method of using the Mr Warner. I suppose they justified it on the ground that they thought it was perfectly right for the superintendent occasionally to accompany the team away to play a game. Senator Lane. And pay his family's expenses because somebody else did it to a greater extent ? Mr. Warner. How they figured it, I do not know. Senator Lane. But I understood you to be accounting for it that way here. I understood you to say he had done that less often than his predecessors. Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. .,,,.,, • .: ,„„ j Senator Lane. Were they m the habit of using association tunds tot* nnvfltip use ' * Mr Warner'. They have been, on occasions like that; yes. sir Senator Lane. According to that, then, this fund is a kind of fund at large that may be used for any purpose The Chairman. Who do you think that fund really belongs to? 1230 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Warner. It belongs to the athletic association. The Chairman. Yes. to the athletic association. Whom do you mean by that ? Mr. Warner. I mean the boys who compose the team The Chairman. Just to make the point clear, when Mr. Friedman goes to Washington on Government expense on Government business and charges the' Government his railroad fare, he ought not to use the mileage books that your fund pays for on that same identical trip, ought he ? Mr. Warner. No; I do not think he has. The Chairman. Have you investigated the records in the office of the auditor of the Pennsylvania Railroad and the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. ? Mr. Warner. No ; I have not. The Chairman. Now, i suppose you would not have any memory as to different expense items incurred by Mr. Friedman on trips to Washington and charged to the athletic fund ? Mr. Warner. I would not; no, sir. The Chairman. Of course, you have no connection with the disci- pline of the school ? Mr. Warner. No more than that I try to keep discipline when I am in charge of the boys when T have them away on trips and out on the athletic field. The Chairman. Were you present on an occasion sometime ago when some boys were whipped in the lock-up down there ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you participate in that? Mr. Warner. I was there simply to see that the boy — that the man that was doing the whipping The Chairman. Who was that? Mr. Warner. Mr. Dickey; he was acting disciplinarian at that time. The Chairman. What was he punishing that boy for? Mr. Warner. It was on a Saturday, and some of the boys, I think, had got hold of some liquor, and they were raising a lot of "cain " down there and had openly defied them : and one of the boys — I think two of the boys — almost threw him off the upper balcony. They pretended they wore going to. 1 do not know whether they really intended to. The Chairman. Were you there by the instruction or with the knowledge of the superintendent ? Mr. Warner. No, sir. The Chairman. How did you come to go there? Mr. Warner. Well, the boys had acted so and defied the disciplina- rian to such an extent that they sent several of us The Chairman. Were you present when that infraction of disci- pline occurred ? Mr. Warner. No, sir. The Chairman. Who was present when that punishment was inflicted ? Mr. Warner. 'There was Mr. Dietz, and Mr. Rudy, and Mr. auffer, and myself. The Chairman. Did the superintendent know anything about it ? Mr. Warner. No, sir. The Chairman. Whv was he not informed ? CARLISLE INDIAK SCHOOL. 123J n&' Earner. ! thmk he disapproved of corporal punishment. The Chairman. You do not mean to say that you participated in a punishment that you knew the superintendent would disapprove of at the time ? Mr. Warner. Well, wc knew that the department was opposed to corporal punishment, but we thought it was a case where there was nothing else that would do as good; and it did have a wholesome effect upon those boys. The Chairman. How many of them were whipped ? Mr. Warner. I think there were three or four. The Chairman. Were they sober when they were whipped ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How were they whipped ? Mr. Warner. With a small strap. The Chairman. Did they make a fight ? Mr. Warner. No. The Chairman. How many lashes were given them ? Mr. Warner. Oh, I could not say. The Chairman. Have they been good boys ever since ? Mr. Warner. They have; yes, sir. I think they have all been pretty good.' The Chairman. Now, going back to that fund just a moment, I see that in January, 1908 — were you there then ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. The Chairman (continuing). A camera costing $140.60 was bought for Hugh Miller, the newspaper correspondent. Mr. Warner. That was January, 1908 ? The Chairman. Yes, sir; that is the information I have — a minute from the records. Do you remember how they came to buy that expensive camera ? Mr. Warner. My impression was that that was bought in 1907 instead of 1908 no, that was right. That was during Maj. Mercer's administration. Mr. Miller had been to a lot of expense to get photo- graphs, and especially action photographs. There was no camera in town that would take rapid-action pictures, and the papers were all the time calling for that kind of pictures, and he spoke to myself and Maj. Mercer about it and prevailed upon us to buy him a camera that would do that work. The Chairman. I notice, too, that on November 21, 1908, a bill of $15 was paid to the Postal Telegraph Co., alleged to be for election returns. Mr. Warner. What year ? The Chairman. That was in 1908. I suppose that was the presi- dential election ? Mr. Warner. That was the presidential election. I think they had the returns out there for the students and employees. The Chairman. What is the present financial condition of the athletic association, Mr. Warner ? Is it prosperous ? Mr. Warner. Why, we just about — I think our receipts perhaps a little more than pay our running expenses. I do not just know what our balance would show now. The Chairman. How are those athletic funds handled at Cornell ? You were there a while, I believe ? 1232 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Warner. Yes. sir; they have an incorporated athletic association. The Chairman. Is il separate from the school? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And paid out for any purpose that the directors wish ? Mr. Warner. I think that up there it is all confined strictly to athletics. I will tell you, this athletic fund, the surplus that is not needed for athletic purposes has been vised by the association for whatever purpose they thought would best benefit the school, and in doing charitable work of different kinds. So far as we have been able in our judgment to do it, we have spent the money as best we could to the interests of the school. The Chairman. Do you ln:\ r c much trouble with your boys on account of drinking? Mr. Warner. The football boys ? Very little. The Chairman. I notice yon are paying out of the athletic fund small items of $2 to the chief of police here, Mr. Boyer, for the arrest of each Indian caught down town without a pass, and also notice an item of $10 paid to Bentley, a detective, and $10 to a sheriff, for the arrest of somebody. Mr. Warner. That has been one way of preventing the boys from going to town -getting the policemen to pick up these boys who wont down town without permission, and to reimburse them for their work in doing that and in cooperating with the school, that has been done. There is no other fund, as I understand it -no Government fund — where that would be a legitimate expense, and so that is taken out of the athletic association the same as other things are in that line. The Chairman. Did I ask you if there was much drinking in the school ? Mr. Warner. Yes, if there was among the athletic boys. The Chairman. Is it general among the male pupils ? Mr. Warner. There is more now than I think there used to be. The Chairman. What do you think that is due to ? Mr. Warner. It is due to the fact that the boys are not so easy to manage as they used to be. They are a little more up-to-date boys, they come there with a little more education. They are a little" harder to keep track of. And it is also due to the fact that the disciplinarian does not take any extreme measures, or does not try to keep the boys from getting to town. The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for that? It must be evident, of course, that whatever the cause may be and however difficult it may be to prevent it, it is very demoralizing to any school, especially where girls are going to the same school. Mr. Warner. There is altogether too much latitude given the boys in coming to town. That is, they are not punished, and there is no effort made to keep them from coming to town by the discip- linarian, so far as I can learn. If you are going to allow boys to run in town without permission they are going to get into more or less mischief. Another thing, I think, would be to drop the white boys, the boys that can not be distinguished from whites. Those are the boys that get the liquor. The people down town would not sell an Indian liquor any more than they would poison, but a white CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1233 boy that has almost no Indian blood in him can go down there and buy it. The Chairman. Are there many white boys of that class out there ? Mr. Warner. There are quite a few. Senator Lane. These men down town that sell whisky, do they sell to boys even if they are white ? Mr. Warner. Oh, no. But some of these boys would be over 21. If they did not know that they were Indians it would be perfectly right to sell them liquor, but if one of these boys goes in a place and they find that they are from the school they will kick them out. These people in town — the white boys usually put one over on them. Some new students comes here, and they may get him to work it for them for a while, or he may get some friend down town to go and get it for him. I think if the disciplinarian would be more strict about the boys going to town it would help in the discipline out there a whole lot. Senator Lane. Did you ever suggest it to him ? Mr. Warner. Yes, t have suggested it, and I have reported it when I saw boys in town in the evening without uniform. I have reported such boys, and others of the employees have. We found that the boys were not even called up about it, and we got tired in making reports. Senator Lane. The present disciplinarian, I understand, has done everything he could to prevent it. Has Mr. Friedman the power to compel him to ? Mr. Warner. He can issue instructions. Senator Lane. Does not the disciplinarian obey those ? Mr. Warner. Yes; but I suppose he says he is doing all he can. Senator Lane. If he finds out he is not Mr. Warner. Well, I suppose he could write to Washington and ask that he be relieved, but that would not mean that he would be relieved. Senator Lane. But he could present a case that would almost compel them to dismiss him ? Mr. Warner. Well, if he had the cooperation of the Indian (Jmce, as I think the superintendent of a school ought to have to get rid of incompetent and disloyal employees, that would be done, but it has not been the case. , Senator Lane. Do you mean to say that if the superintendent ot the institution notified the authorities at Washington— that is, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs— that there was a disciplinarian who would not, after he had been warned of the facts, prevent the boys from going; down town in such a way that they could get liquor, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs would fail to support the superin- tendent in his efforts in that direction 1 Mr Warner. I can onlv judge by what has been done. Senator Lane. They have faded heretofore ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir; in some cases they have faded to act on it °sS°ator Lane. Then, the logical deduction from that statement is that if the boys drink here and come down town without proper dkciphne from the man employed for that purpose, the fault lies 35601— ft U— 14 18 1234 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs ? There can not be any- other explanation. Mr. Warner. I think to a certain extent. The Chairman. Is there anything else, Senator ? Mr. Warner. I would like to be neard about the general situation. The Chairman. Very well. Mr. Warner. Practically all you have asked me about is the athletics. I have been athletic director there, with the exception of 3 years, under all the different superintendents that the school has had, and I feel that I know something about the condition of affairs under all the administrations, and as long as Mr. Friedman's admin- istration is being questioned I would not feel that I had done my duty unless I had called attention to the work he has done there. He has built up the school, added to the plant, as you may see, to a large extent; he has improved sanitary conditions and the comfort of the students to a great extent The Chairman. Now, just s&j what he has done in detail, without expressing an opinion. Mr. Warner. The students' dining room used to be a dingy old room, poorly lighted — that whole building was an old building. The rooms upstairs, where they had the sewing room, etc. — that has all been remodeled and improved and made a decent place for students to eat — metal ceilings put in, and floors and things lighted up so they don't have to go up there in the dark. That is simply one. Of course, when Mr. Friedman came there he found that there had accumulated in the athletic association quite a large fund. He had certain ideas as to how the grounds and the school could be improved, but he did not have the appropriation from the Government to do the work with. We talked it over — the executive committee of the athletic association — and this surplus fund of the athletic association was used to a large extent to build several buildings there which Mr. Friedman thought we needed. The Chairman. Tell us what buildings were constructed from that fund. Mr. Warner. What is called now the athletic quarters was an old hospital. They built a new hospital up on the other end of the grounds. That old building was an old, insanitary, tumble-down affair, which would probably have been torn down as useless for any purpose whatever. As the dormitory facilities for the boys wero crowded during the winter, and as that building was favorably situated to the athletic field, we thought it would be a good idea to remodel that building into a place for the boys to room; that they would have better facilities, etc. That building was remodeled and reconstructed, practically built over, at a cost of ten, twelve, or thirteen thousand dollars. Then the printing office, which used to be over in one of the shops- Mr. Friedman wanted the shop room for the other shops, and that building where the printing office is now was built from athletic funds, and that addition to the school building in which the business depart- ment is was also built out of the athletic money. Then the heating system has been changed; all those things. The girls' and boys' dormitories have been better lighted. The school building has been repaired and put in good shape, and better lights put in for the students. OABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1235 Representative Carter. What is j^our salary, Mr. Warner? Mr. Warner. $4,000. Representative Carter. Do you get your expenses when you are on trips with the boys ? Mr. Warner. My expenses are paid; yes, sir. Representative Carter. Do you get any other emoluments at all from the athletic funds ? Mr. Warner. No, sir; except a place to live. Representative Carter, That does not come from the athletic funds ? Mr. Warner, That was built by the athletic association. Senator Lane. Are you supplied with forage ? Mr. Warner. No, sir. Representative Carter. You do not get anything further than your salary and the things you have just mentioned from the athletic fund? Mr. Warner, No, sir; not a thing. Representative Carter. You understand, of course, that there are no accusations implied in any questions we are asking ? It is the only way we have to get at the facts. If I understand correctly, the secretary of the association with whom you play a game, when it is away from home, files an account, sending you your part and a check to correspond ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. That is all there is to that ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. There are no other payments at all made to anybody except that ? Mr. Warner. No. Representative Carter, And that is the way the games are settled, is it, by all the colleges ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Is it customary among all the colleges to have publicity men like you have here ? . Mr. Warner. In think nearly all of them. I know the University of Pennsylvania has a press representative, they call him. He has a salary, and he devotes all his time to that work. Representative Carter. How long have you been at Carlisle, the last time ? Mr. Warner. Since 1907. Representative Carter. When did you come here the first time « Mr. Warner. I came in 1899. Representative Carter. How long did you stay i Mrf Warner. From 1899 to the spring of 1904, and then 1 came back in January, 1907. .. , Representative Carter. Have you stated anything at all about the feeling that seems to exist between Mr. Freidman and some of the students? , , ... Mr Warner. No; I have not touched upon that. Representative Carter. Tell us what you think about it. Mr Warner. I want to say that everything has run along smoothly at the school. Mr. Friedman did not go on a vacation last summer He stayed here and worked last summer. Last fall we all remarked about how smoothly everything was going, and how there seemed to 1236 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. be a good feeling in the student body, and everything was going on line until Mr. Friedman's trouble with Mr. Whitwell. Representative Carter. When was that? Mr. Warner. That was along just before the holidays, T think. Representative Carter. What was the trouble ? Mr. Warner. Mr. Friedman found, or thought, that the academic department had been running down and that Mr. Whitwell had not been doing his work as well as he should; so Mr. Friedman thought he would take a personal interest in building up the academic depart- ment. Mr. Whitwell had — for instance, he had abandoned the study hour, which is the hour from 7 to 8 at night, when all the students must go to their rooms to study. They had been doing that until Mr. Whitwell abandoned that and instituted what he called a ' ' quiet hour," when the boys and girls had to stay in their rooms and do their studying there. Mr. Friedman saw that that was a farce; they did not do their studying, and it just gave them the whole evening to themselves, and it was a farce. That was one of the things that Mr. Friedman reinstated. Of course, that was against Mr. Whitwell's recommendation, and there were several other instances of where Mr. Friedman issued orders in connection with the school and tried to get Mr. Whitwell to cooperate with him in strengthening that department, and Mr. Whitwell evidently resented Mr. Friedman's orders along that line and sort of took things into Ms own hands over there and tried to straighten things out, and the result was finally, as I understand it, that they had a wordy battle in Mr. Friedman's office, in which Mr. Whitwell called Mr. Friedman some dirty names, and one thing and another. Mr. Friedman preferred charges against Mr. Whitwell for his insubordination, and those charges were not acted upon for nearly a m nth — three weeks, at least, as I remember it -and when they were acted upon, Mr. Whitwell, I think, was told that if it were not for his long years of service he would be summarily dismissed, but in view of the fact that he has been in the service so long, and his previous record, they would transfer him to another school, and he would be transferred as soon as another place could be found. Representative Carter. lie was reprimanded and notified he would be transferred ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Then in taking the case up with the Indian Office at Washington there was accomplished then a reprimand and the notification that he would be transferred ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir; the letters are on file and can be looked up. In spite of the fact that he was told that, he has been allowed by the Indian Office to remain there; and in my estimate and in Mr. Fried- man's, and all who are loyal t<> Mr. Friedman, it is Mr. Whitwell who has been instrumental in stirring un all this insurrection. Representative Carter. Y»u blame Mr. Whitwell for it? Mr. Warner. Mr. Whitwell and three or four other employees who have a spite against Mr. Friedman. Representative Carter. Who are the three or four others? Mr. Warner. Well, Miss Sweenev and Miss Canfield, and Mr Mann, I think, are the ones. The Chairman. Very well, Mr. Warner; that will be all. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1237 Mr. Warner. I would like to add to that, if I may — as 1 under- stand the discipline has been one of the things that has been criticized. I would like to say that I think the investigation will show that the discipline at the small boys' quarters has been good, and the disci- pline at the girls' quarters under Miss Ridenour has been good, and the only complaints there have been that she has been too strict. My opinion is that the discipline at the large boys' quarters is respon- sible for the whole situation out there. Those boys have disciplinari- ans out there, and instead of running the large boys' quarters and telling the boys what they should do and what they should not do, they have allowed the boys to run them and tell them what they shall do and not do ; and they have had such good success at that that they have got so they think they can tell the other employees and even the superintendent what he can do. It seems to me if the large boys are going to run that school up there and run the disciplinarian, it is time a change was made. I know Mr. Friedman has done everything in his power to stiffen up the disciplinarian at the large boys' quarters and get him to stiffen up things down there. In my estimation, if the students and these disgruntled employees are allowed to feel that they can oust the superintendent or any other employee, nobody is going to be able to come there and get any results unless he allows the students to run things and do as they please. Representative Stephens. What remedy would you suggest ? Mr Warner. I would suggest that the superiutendent be given power by the Indian Office at Washington to remove the people that nave stirred up all this dissension. It is necessary to dismiss some of the ring leaders among the students. This thing has all been worked up by Whitwell and his crowd and a few of the students. The Chairman. Is that a matter of evidence, or just your opinion 1 Mr Warner. Well, there are facts to substantiate it. The Chairman. Well, tell us the facts. Mr. Warner. I do not know that I could state facts of my own knowledge. I have heard- Senator Lane. I would like to ask if things will be better until the superintendent can make make th^m better, with the cooperation of the Department of the Interior ? Mr. Warner. No, sir. . Senator Lane. You say that will require a new disciplinarian and the cooperation of the Interior Department, but it seems as though you also tell me that the present superintendent is unable to secure that cooperation. Will this go on indefinitely « Mr. Warner. Unless the superintendent has the cooperation ot tne Indian Office at Washington. Senator Lane. He has not secured that yet, although he has tried, you tell me ? Mr Warner. That is as I understand it. Senator Lane. Then it looks to me like it is a hopeless case. Mr Warner. Unless the Indian Office can Representative Carter. Are these the only people who are in col- lusion with Mr. Whitwell— the three you mean ? Mr Warner. Oh, no; there are others. I also want to state that this committee, as I understand it-the committee of boys and grrls that have been to see this committee-are supposed to represent the boys and girls. I do not know whether you understand it or not, but 1238 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. those committers were appointed by a faction among the student body. They do not represent the whole student body. They were elected by those who were against Mr. Friedman and do not represent but one side of the question among the student body. Representative Carter. You know when they were elected and about the meeting they had? Mr. Warner. Since Mr. Linnen came here. Representative Carter. About the meeting they had ? Mr. Warner. Yes, sir; several of the boys told me that at that meeting they were asked to leave the room. Represetative Carter. Who were they, Mr. Warner ? Mr. Warner. Joe Guyon and William Garlow, two of the best boys we have here. I don't know of any others. TESTIMONY OF AUGUST KENSLER. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. Representative Stephens. How long have you been connected with this school ? Mr. Kensler. For one year and seven months. Representative Stephens. What is your position here % Mr. Kensler. Quartermaster. Representative Stephens. What are your duties here ? Mr. Kensler. To receive and issue supplies and to lay out the work in the shops. Representative Stephens. What shops do you have control of % Mr. Kensler. The industrial shops — the carpenter shop, the black- smith shop, and all those. Representative Stephens. You furnish them the supplies that are needed in those shops ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir; and direct what work shall be done there. Representative Stephens. Do you know why it was they dropped the agricultural work ? Mr. Kensler. No; that was before my time. Representative Stephens. That is, about three years '. Mr. Kensler, Yes. Representative Stephens. Do you know why they dropped the telegraphy department ? Mr. Kensler. No; I am not acquainted with that. Representative Stephens. Do you know why they dropped the photography department ? Mr. Kensler. No; that is all on the other side, under the academic department. Representative Stephens. Do you know why thev dropped the department of Indian arts and sciences % Mr. Kensler. I believe they have that yet. I thought Mrs. Dietz was still working at that. You see, they work over there in the. school building under charge of the principal, so, of course, I don't know what is going on over there. Representative Stephens. Do you know what the feeling is between the different teachers and the superintendent of the school? Mr. Kensler. I could honestly -say I don't know anything about that any more than I hear whispered about. CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1239 Representative Stephens. Do you know what the feeling is between the body of the students and the superintendent? Mr. Kenslek. It has been very bad of late beenT 686111 ^^ SrrEPHElf 8. Can you explain to us why that has . Mr. Kensler. I might be able to. We unfortunately haye no dis- ciplinarian. The last one wc had was very lax. He was a very fine gentleman but he had not the ability to control the pupils Or in other words, he was rather too tired to do it. He could not control them at all. Another part of it is, for a long time before this man Jmedman came here Mr. Mercer was here, and he left the boys and girls have dances every week, and they came in together and it had bad results. The morals became very bad— that is the plain speak- ing of it Then he cut that out, about a year and a half ago, since Miss Ridenour came here. They stopped the dances. That set them wild right then and there. Representative Stephens. Who did they blame for that ? Mr. Kensler. Mr. Friedman. Representative Stephens. What is the state of feeling at the pres- ent time between Mr. Friedman and the body of students ? Mr. Kensler. The feeling is not very good as far as I hear. Representative Stephens. Do they jeer or make fun of him? Mr. Kensler. Not in my presence, but I have heard they have done so, but not of my own knowledge. Representative Stephens. Do you know anything about the moral condition of the school 1 Mr. Kensler. Well, it is about as good as it has always been. Representative Stephens. Do you know anything of any trouble among the female students, any of them being bad and sent home in & delicate condition, etc. ? Mr. Kensler. I have heard they have been. Representative Stephens. About how many have you heard ? Mr. Kensler. Of late, not over three, I think, but there might have been more. My duties are outside of the quarters, and I have nothing to do with the boys and girls except when they come down. I have four boys detailed in my place. Representative Stephens. Have you heard any complaint about their not getting enough to eat ? Mr. Kensler. The only complaint I have heard is that just as soon as the football is over there is a howl that there is not enough to eat; but it is only in the bread that I have heard it. Representative Stephens. Is there any reason why they should not have bread enough ? Mr. Kensler. They can not go over the allowance, you know. Representative Stephens. Is it not a fact that we give them a lump-sum appropriation ? Do you think they are not able to supply the students s Mr. Kensler. Oh, we are able, if the superintendent has the authority. Representative Stephens. Hasn't he the authority? Mr. Kensler. No; the Indian Office issues a regular provision table, so much allowed for each 100 rations. Representative Stephens. How much is allowed, then, by the Indian Office ? 1240 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Kenslee. They have reduced it again. They have reduced the flour to 90 pounds for 100 rations, and the beef 85 pounds to 100. We had a special allowance for a long time while Gen. Pratt was there and up to a short time ago, but one day they sent in the new school regulations, about four months ago, and said that that would take the place of all former regulations in regard to food. But actually we have not got the bread. The baker should bake as much bread as they can eat. To-day he came to me again and figured up — he used more than the allowance last month, and I showed him if I put the amount down which is necessary per 100, then we overdraw very nearly 300 pounds of flour in a month. That flour is not alone for bread, but they use a lot in the kitchen for mak- inpup pies and dumplings, etc. Representative Stephens. That is taken away from the body of students ? Mr. Kenslee,. They eat it in another form. Representative Stephens. You say you have not funds sufficient to furnish bread enough for the students ? Senator Lane. That is an arbitrary arrangement of the depart- ment? Mr. Kenslee. Yes. Representative Stephens. Is there not a supplemental fund that these boys can be given enough bread out of ? Mr. Kenslee. We have to have authority. Representative Stephens. You do not have to have authority to use those football funds ? Mr. Kenslee. I never saw that er heard anything of it. Representative Stephens. You do not think that could be used for buying bread when it can be used for every other purpose? Mr. Kenslee. I don't know what is going on about the football fund. I never saw it, I know. It does not come under the Govern- ment, I understand. Representative Caetee. You say tliev allow 90 pounds of flour to 100 rations? Mr. Kenslee. Yes. Representative Caetee. How long is a ration supposed to last? Mr. Kenslee. The ration is a day's provision. Representative Caetee. Thev arc allowed 90 pounds of flour a day for over 100 students? Mr. Kenslee. Yes, sir. Representative Caetee. That is the maximum? Mr. Kenslee. The maximum of the Indian Office; yes. Representative Caetee. Who makes that allowance? Mr. Kenslee. I guess Mr. Lane. Representative Caetee. What do you think about the athletic association and the way it is handled ? Mr. Kenslee. Well, my belief is this, that as long as it is a Govern- ment institution it should be handled by the Government. If I had the doing of it cf course, it is only my'opinion— it ought to be han- dled just the same as the Army and Navy teams. Representative Caetee. They play on the grounds, and not out- side. That does away with all that money business. There are plenty of teams that will come here and play our boys. The Army does not go outside, and neither does the Navy. The only game they do not play on their own grounds is the game they play together. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1241 TESTIMONY OF CLAUDE M. STAUFFER. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. What official 'position do you hold in the Indian, school, and how long have you been employed there ? Mr. Stauffer. I have been employed there since 1P04; about 10 years. I have been the bandmaster and musical director there ever since I have been there. The Chairman. How many pupils are in the band? Mr. Stauffer. About 40; in the neighborhood of 45 or 48. The Chairman. What do you teach; what instruments? Mr. Stauffer. I instruct them in a general way on all the instru- ments, but my principal instruments, that I play myself, are the stringed instruments, the piano and organ, and I have a general knowl- edge of the brass instruments and reed instruments of the band, sufficient to be able to instruct them. The Chairman. Do you issue diplomas in your department? Mr. Stauffer. No ; that has never been the policy. The Chairman. How long does it take to complete the work which you do in the course which you give there ? Mr. Stauffer. Well, the course we give in music has never been an outlined course. There never had been odo before I came there, and never one handed me by anybody else. I have these pupils for a certain length of time — for the time they are there, with the excep- tion of the summer months. During the summer time they go out, The Chairman. Have any of them completed the course to your satisfaction ? Mr. Stauffer. We have a number of students, yes, that have become very proficient. The Chairman. Do they teach now? Mr. Stauffer. Yes; I have a number of boys in the Indian Service at the present time. The Chairman. Were you ever connected with the Department of Agriculture ? Mr. Stauffer. No; I never was. The Chairman. Did you ever have the position of instructor m agriculture? Mr. Stauffer. I never did. Now, I looked that matter up. Mr. Linnen asked me that question, and I looked that up through some of our files out there, and came across a note written to me by Mr. Friedman saying that I should arrange to take some classes in agri- culture. I went to Mr. Whitwell, and consulted with him about the matter, and he objected to any more classes being introduced in that department. He said that at present their courses were broken up sufficiently with music, and the business, and drawing. I reported the matter to Mr. Friedman, and it never was carried out. The Chairman. Are you skilled in scientific agriculture ? Mr. Stauffer. No, sir. . The Chairman. Do you know anything about agriculture* Mr Stauffer. Only what I have taken m the schools that 1 have been in. I am a graduate of a normal school, and I took a course there in physics, and took physics in college. The Chairman. I am talking about agriculture. 1242 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Stauffer, So fur as agriculture is concerned, I am not an agriculturist. The Chairman. Why did the superintendent instruct you to take classes in agriculture if you had no special training? Mr. Stauffer. The position of agricultural teacher had been abol- ished, and he thought they ought to have some practical knowledge. The Chairman' . Why was that done? Mr. Stauffer. I never went into that with him. The Chairman. Do you know a Miss Julia Hardin ? Mr. Stauffer. Yes; she is a pupil of mine. She studied piano under me, and also in the mandolin club. The Chairman. Did you administer corporal punishment to her? Mr. Stauffer. I did. The Chairman. Under whose instruction? Mr. Stauffer. Mr. Friedman's instruction. The Chairman. State the circumstances. Mr. Stauffer, May I read them ? The Chairman. No. You remember what you did? Mr. Stauffer. I remember what I did, but if I could submit this to you, it is a clear and concise statement of the case, and covers it to the b'^st of my ability. The Chairman. Is this the statement which you made to Inspector Linnen ? Mr. Stauffer. That is the statement that I gave him. The Chairman. You made one statement to him, and the follow- ing day declined to sign it ? Mr. Stauffer. I asked Mr. Linnen whether that was to be regarded as my final testimony. He said that for the present it was. I said I preferred not to sign it until I had rendered my entire testimony, and I requested that I be allowed to submit a fuller statement in justice to myself regarding the Julia Hardin affair. That has been about a year ago — not quite a year ago. I never expected to be called upon about this case and I had not refreshed my memory of the case at all, and in thinking it over I realized that I had not cov- ered the ground sufficiently. The Chairman. Did you make any statements in the affidavit you gave Mr. Linnen and did not sign that were not true? Mr. Stauffer. No, sir; I did not. The Chairman. So far as the statements in that go, they are correct? Mr. Stauffer. So far as they go they are correct; yes. The Chairman. They did not sufficiently cover the case ? Mr. Stauffer. They did not sufficiently cover the case, in my estimation. The Chairman. Now, after you had made this affidavit and were asked to sign it by Mr. Linnen you made some offensive statements to him ? Mr. Stauffer. I did, and I have a transcription of that that I have written down that I am willing to submit and swear to as to what occurred, to the best of my knowledge, in there. The Chairman. Have you the statement with you ? Mr. Stauffer. Yes ; I have the statement, and I want to say, Mr. Robinson, that I could not see why Mr. Linnen's attitude should be offensive to me at all. I was not shown CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1243 The Chairman. Can you explain why your attitude should have been offensive to him? You knew he represented the Government of the United States Mr. Stauffer. He did not tell me that he represented the Gov- ernment. The. Chairman. You did not know that he was a representative of the Department of the Interior, of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and of the Joint commission of Congress ? Mr. Stauffer. Ihad no knowledge whatever. The Chairman. But did you think he was ? Mr. Stauffer. I knew he was there for the purpose of investigat- ing this matter. The Chairman. Whom did you think he was representing ? Mr. Stauffer. I thought he was representing the Indian Office; that he was sent here from the Indian Office to make a fair investi- gation of the school. And in my estimation, Mr. Robinson, I don't see how a man who was a fellow Mason could treat me The Chairman. The Masonic business has nothing to do with that. Did you state to Mr. Linnen, "You can not bluff us the way you have been doing things around here?" Mr. Stauffer. I said, sir — I mentioned that he could not bluff me into signing an affidavit. The Chairman. What did he say in reply to that ? Mr. Stauffer. He said, "I told you I was through with } T ou." The Chairman. He told you you were excused? Mr. Stauffer. He told me he was through with me. The Chairman. What did you say in reply? Mr. Stauffer. I said, "Very well." The Chairman. Didn't you say to bim, "You can not bluff any- body around here ?" Mr. Stauffer. I made that remark. The Chairman. He told you you were excused. Why didn't you go on about your business ? Mr. Stauffer. Mr. Robinson, I admit I was hasty in what I said. The Chairman. You also made the statement, "You are no gen- tleman? " Mr. Stauffer. Yes; I did. The Chairman. And that was after he told you you would not be required to sign the affidavit ? The Chairman. And as you passed out the door you made the statement again ? Mr. Stauffer. Yes; I admit that. The Chairman. Now, let us get down to the facts about that Julia Hardin case. You say you had instructions from Supt. Friedman to administer corporal punishment to that girl ? Mr. Stauffer. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What was his language and what did he tell you Mr Stauffer. He just simply said, "Go ahead." The Chairman. Did you ask him for permission to do iW Mr Stauffer. I came back to the office and reported that I had been over there, and there was nothing that could be done with the girl 1244 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. at all, in my estimation, and I thought she ought to be made to mind, even if it were necessary to give her a spanking. Senator Lane. How old is she? Mr. Stauffer. I judge she is about 17 or 18 yoars old. Senator Lane. Were you really going to spank a 17-year-old girl"? Mr. Stauffer. Now, I feel — and I have conclusive evidence there in my statement that I have sworn to as the whole truth, that that girl admitted afterwards — that was the best thing that ever hap- pened to her. The Chairman. Let me go ahead. You said you made a state- ment of the facts to Supt. Friedman, and he told you to go ahead and punish her. Did you tell him you were going to use a board ? Mr. Stauffer. I did not use a board, Mr. Robinson. The Chairman. What did you use? Mr. Stauffer. A little stick that Miss Ridenour handed me, a little piece of kindling wood about a foot long, two inches wide, and a quarter of an inch thick. Senator Lane. Did you strike a 17-year-old girl with a stick of that kind ? Mr. Stauffer. Yes, sir; T did. I did not think I did anything that was cruel to the girl. The girl The Chairman. How many times did you strike her? Mr. Stauffer. About eight or ten times. The Chairman. Did you throw her down? Mr. Stauffer. No; 1 did not. I slapped her The Chairman. Struck a girl Mr. Stauffer. I slapped her across the mouth when she became insolent to me. The Chairman. Did Superintendent Friedman give you authority to slap the girl ? Mr. Stauffer. He did not give me any authority except what I told you. He said to me The Chairman. When you slapped her, what else did you do? What did you do after you slapped her ? Mr. Stauffer. She covered her face with her hands and got down on her knees, and as she did I pushed her over so that she was on her hands and knees — with my hand. The Chairman. When did you hit her with the board? Mr. Stauffer. After that Mrs. La Flesche came in, and Mrs. La Flesche had the check she had refused to sign in her office previous to this, which was for her transportation out to her country home. Mrs. La Flesche came in, and I told her the circumstances, and Miss Ridenour also did, and she still was defiant and still insisted she would not go. And I said to Mrs. La Flesche that I did not see any- thing that we could do. She said, "The only trouble is, she has not had enough." I said, "I am willing to give her some more if you think so." and Miss Ridenour brought this stick and said, "Bfere, use this." The Chairman. How much experience have you had as a school- teacher ? Mr. Stauffer. I am a graduate of the Bloomsberg State Normal School, holding a diploma as teacher in the State of Pennsylvania. The Chairman. Have you ever whipped a young lady in that man- ner before or since ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1245 Mr. Stauffer. No, sir. The Chairman. Did it occur to you that that was a manly and courageous thing to do ? Mr. Stauffer. I have regretted ever since that it was necessary for me to do it, but I did it as my duty prompted me to. The Chairman. You were moved solely by a sense of duty « Mr. Stauffer. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You mean you slapped a voung lady in the face from a sense of duty, and expect anybody to believe it ? Mr. Stauffer. Well, that is my version of it, Senator Robinson. The Chairman. Well, I have been a school-teacher myself, and am a man of some temperament myself. I can sympathize with a man that has a temper, but I never would make oath that I slapped a young lady 17 years, and then spanked her with a board, or what- ever it was, purely from a sense of duty. I want you to describe that stick, or board, or whatever it was, that you used. Mr. Stauffer. I have described it in there. It was about a foot long, 2 inches wide, and a quarter of an inch thick. The Chairman. Didn't you say in the affidavit you gave Mr. Linnen it was at least 3 inches wide and 3 feet long'* Mr. Stauffer. No; I did not say that. The Chairman. Did you ever whip a 17-year-old boy with your fist? Mr. Stauffer. No, sir. The Chairman. You would not do that, would you ? Mr. Stauffer. No; and I regret that I did this other. The Chairman. You would take your vengeance out with your fists on young ladies. You have seen boys around that school drunk, heard them insult the superintendent and call him a "Jew" Mr. Stauffer. No, sir; never in my presence. The Chairman. And you never struck any of the boys 1 Mr. Stauffer. I never heard them do that in my presence. The Chairman. You have handed me a typewritten statement which you say represents your view of the matter after you had carefully studied it over. Did you confer with anybody when you prepared this statement ? Mr. Stauffer. No, sir; not about this statement. The Chairman. Whom did you confer with before you prepared it or while you were preparing it ? Mr. Stauffer. I did not confer with anybody about the state- ment. The Chairman. Have you exhibited it to anyone since you pre- pared it ? Mr. Stauffer. No, sir. The Chairman. You make the statement here: By this time Mr. Whitwell had arrived on the scene and was told of what had taken place. He pulled the girl up from the floor and told her she would have to make up her mind to go, and that she had not had half enough, and threatened to give her more himself. After considerable persuasion on the part of all she finally consented to sign the check and agreed to go to the country if we would let her wait until the morning train. As it was then too late to make the evening train, it was agreed she could wait, but Mr. Whitwell ordered her put in the detention room over night so she could not be persuaded by the other girls to change her mind. He then accompanied Miss Ridenour to the room where she was to be kept. 1246 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Is that statement correct * Mr. Stauffer. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, it is. The Chairman. Now, Mr. Whitwell swears as follows: I found the girl sitting on the floor sobbing and crying. Mr. Stauffer was standing near, very much excited. So was Miss Eidenour. I had learned on the way over, from Mrs." La Flesche, something of the trouble. I walked up to Julia and said some- thing like this: "Julia, you know I wouldn't advise you to do anything against your best interests if I knew it. Now you have got yourself into this trouble and it is up to you to get yourself out of it. I couldn't tell you what is right or wrong, any better than what you yourself now know it, and I am not going to waste time talking to you, but I advise you to do as you are told, whatever that is." I turned to the matron and asked what they wanted her to do. The matron said she would have to go to the lockup. I said, "Julia, will you go to the lockup?" She said, "I will go for you, Mr. Whitwell." I knew the girl meant what she said. I turned to the matron and said she was ready to go, but the matron did not seem to realize it. I said again that she was ready to go and told Julia to rise and go with her. She went, and that ended my connection with the case. That evening Mr. Stauffer came to our house and explained his connection with the case. I told him that he would likely be blamed for using corporal punishment on the girl. He said that he had first gone to Mr. Friedman, and that while Mr. Fried- man didn't give him direct permission, he took it for granted that he was willing that the girl should be punished. He also added that the girl was ready to give in when I came over. I said so far as I was concerned I felt I had not done anything worth mentioning. Now, is the statement in that affidavit true that Mr. Friedman did not give you direct permission, but you took it for granted that he was willing ? Mr. Stauffer. The remark Mr. Friedman made — when I said the only thing I saw was to give her a spanking, he said, "Go ahead." The Chairman. That was direct instructions to do it, was it not? Mr. Stauffer. That is what I understood. The Chairman. Did you tell Mr. Whitwell that Mr. Friedman had not given you direct permission ? Mr. Stauffer. I do not think I ever told him that. Tho Chairman. Did you go over to his house that night and explain your connection with the whipping of the girl ? Mr. Stauffer. I do not thmk that I did. The Chairman. Do you remember going over there that night ? Mi-. Stauffer. I do not remember going over there that day at all. The Chairman. Do you remember makmg any explanation? Mr. Stauffer. No; I think the explanation was made right there in the room at tho time. The Chairman. You do not remember about it ? Mr. Stauffer. No. TESTIMONY OF DR. MOSES FRIEDMAN, SUPERINTENDENT. Tho witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You are the superintendent of the Carlisle Indian School ? Dr. Friedman. I am. Tho Chairman. How long have you served in that capacity, Doctor ? Dr. Friedman. Since April 1, 1908. The Chairman. Now, there has been presented to this joint com- mission complaints as to tho management and control of the institu- tion. Among them are these: That there is a general state of dis- CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1247 order in the school, a strained relationship between yourself and the Eupils and between yourself and many of the employees; that you ave not manifested a friendly sympathy for the pupils in your admin- istration of the affairs of the school ; that the food supply furnished is inadequate; that in the accounts which you have rendered the Government the same have been falsified in this, that you were fur- nished mileage books at the expense of the athletic association and used the same in travel on the Cumberland Valley Railroad and the Pennsylvania Railroad to and from Washington; that for the same trips and on the same travel you submitted an item for railroad fare in your accounts rendered the Government; that you have caused or permitted the number of pupils actually attending the school to be misrepresented for the purpose of reducing the average cost per pupil; and perhaps some other matters, to which your attention may be called. We will be very glad to have any statement or testimony that you may care to offer in connection with your administration there espe- cially touching these matters. If you wish, we would be glad for you to go ahead and make a statement. Dr. Friedman. I made a few notes with reference to it to guide me, but I presumed that probably you would want to ask mo some questions first. The Chairman. I think I will do that. What is the total number of pupils in the school ? Dr. Friedman. At present? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Dr. Friedman. I could not give you the exact figures. There are probably — I think there is an actual attendance of 816, but there is a larger enrollment of students' names, students who have been there this year. ... The Chairman. What are the general conditions prevailing m the school, with reference to order or disorder? Are they satis- factory to you ? Dr. Friedman. They are not satisfactory to me, sir; no. The Chairman. In what respect? Dr Friedman. The discipline among the boys is not satisfactory, and among a great many of the students in the various quarters there has been a condition of unrest created by employees who are disloyal and who are incompetent, who have been repeatedly reported to the Indian Office, and who have been kept there regardless of my reports. The Chairman. Now, when did this condition as to laxity in disci- pline arise, Dr. Friedman? When did you first observe it * Dr Friedman. Now, the present condition goes back to about Christmas time, possibly a little before, possibly a month before. There was a certain amount of unrest about the time some difficulty arose between myself and the principal teacher. I shall narrate that difficulty if you want to hear it. It is a very important matter. The Chairman. Very well. Dr Friedman. When I first came to Carlisle nearly six years ago I was told to build up the school, which was in % M ^"«n-down con- dition, in the mechanical plant, in the course of study, ui the indus- tries, and in the general tone of the discipline. But I realized it could not be done at one time, and I took it up department by department, I took up the various industries, the farms, the health, the discipline, 1248 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. the morality, and I left the school work go until a later period, be- cause the Carlisle School had always had a rather good reputation for its academic work. During the last year I became convinced of laxities in the administration of the school budding. The failure of incentive on the part of the head there in that building to inspire the teachers and the general laxity of conditions in the building were affecting the re3t of the school. I thought this should be remedied, and I took that matter up. I was there all the summer, with the possible exception of a day or two. I have for several years been suggesting to Mr. Whitwell that they install an evening study hour, which he had abolished with the approval of Supt. Mercer the year he came there, and which is a fun- damental need in any institution. Instead of that he had an even- ing study hour in the dormitory rooms, and it was not a study hour. The hoys lay around on the beds and told stories, and it created dis- order rather than improved their intellect. Every time I asked him about the study hour he indicated that he was unfavorable to it and that the Indian Office was unfavorable to it. But the thing got to such a pass that I finally wrote the office nryself to find out whether the office was opposed to an evening study hour. I told them the general conditions. They wrote back and said they were not, that they had issued no instructions that it be discontinued, and that, as a matter of fact, they were favorable to it. I thereupon instituted it. I realized it was a large step, because it meant taking up the evenings' of a great many teachers in the academic budding. They had been free in the evenings. I realized that Mr. Whitwell was opposed to it. I worked out a plan during the summer, and started out at the be- ginning of the year. I took up other matters, such as the general monthly entertainment, which was badly conducted, and improved them by having every department represented. I took up the Mon- day chapel exercises and arranged that so that it would be of some use to the students by giving them a Bible reading and giving them a good talk on some practical subject. A great many of the minor matters in the building were taken up. Mr. Whitwell chafed at that. He had previously spent a great deal of time away from the building. He is really an assistant super- intendent, but he is really of no assistance whatever. He went to the school in the morning, and went back to his house at 4 o'clock, and nobody could find him after that. Under the new conditions he chafed, and finally came into my office and insulted me. The Chairman. What did he do and say ? Dr. Friedman. If you insist upon the words, he called me a dirty skunk, and he said a number of other things along the same line. I am convinced from his manner that he came in there to do it. Now, I am not an active man, understand, nor a prize fighter, and any blackguard can come into my office and say anything he pleases. I took the matter up with the office, and reported the matter, both by letter and by telephone message to the commissioner, and I insisted that this man be suspended at once. Senator L\ne. How long ago was this, please ? Dr. Friedman. About four months ago. It was more than four months. I called up the commissioner on the telephone, and he was not in favor of suspending anyone. He said it was a very serious thing. I sent a full report in, and gave Mr. Whitwell a chance to CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1249 answer the charges, as I had to do in every case of that kind. The same process has to be gone through with any employee on the •grounds. If conditions warrant their removal, it is up to me to prefer charges. They have a chance to answer them and prefer counter- charges; and as a general thing it means an investigation and dis- ruption of the school, and in this matter it was even more serious than anything of that kind, because this man went around bragging about what he had done. It was current information around the grounds. I called the Indian Office up a few days later, and I did not get any satisfaction. After waiting for several weeks, I went down to Wash- ington and there was nothing done, and after a wait of about two months after this thing occurred I finally went down there deter- mined that some action should be taken. I saw Commissioner Sells, and he said, "Why, I have not had a chance to go over this man's statement at all. I promise you to reply in three days." Well, in three days Mr. Whitwell got a letter telling him that he would be transferred, that he had been insubordinate and insulting, and that he would have been dismissed except for length of service. There was nothing mentioned about the character of his service in his letter. I believe that was the 25th of November. It was just like threatening a child with a_ licking and holding it off until some time in the future. This man was angry, and he knew that the worst that could happen to him was a transfer, and he had already been active, and he became even more active. The Chairman. What did he do ? Dr. Friedman. He inspired the students with agitation. He called the students repeatedly into his office over there near his rooms. He got a matron by the name of Miss Sweeney, who was over there as a teacher, and who had been refused leave at a certain time because she was acting contrary to the regulations and not in accordance with previous instructions, and she united with him in the matter. And he got another teacher over there in the school building, a young fellow by the name of Mann, who I found to be a disrupting element on the campus, with him in the same work. And by degrees he got two or f nT'Pf* ol" n (*ts Those things spread. Mr. Whitwell was on the campus there; he had insulted his superintendent, and he was openly declaring that the superintendent would leave and that he would win. One of their general remarks was that they would "see the tail feathers of the superintendent going out of the place," and I was helpless. I have reported these things to the office continually, sir. Now, they have gotten these students in there— this thing com- menced then. There never has been a condition of this kind on those grounds. I have been there six years this March, and this is rather a late day for a condition of that kind to be suddenly brought about by natural conditions. If I had been unpopular with the students it would have been manifested the first year. If there had been such trouble or laxity of discipline it would have been manifested the first year, because one of the complaints against the former ad- ministration was laxity of discipline. But here was a condition that was fomented by employees on the campus, one of whom is assist- ant superintendent. 35601— pt 11—14 19 1250 C'AUI.Ibl K INDIAN SCHOOL. Now, coupled with that, I think, is the inefficiency of the. disci- plinarian- Air McKean. Mr. McKean is a good young fellow, he has a hearty laugh, he likes the out-of-doors. But he is phlegmatic rather, and 'his tendency is to let the boys alone. He won't correct the hoys. If something comes up that the students want to do or do not 'want to do, and they come to him, why, he says, "I can not do anything about that; those are the superintendent's orders.'' I just recently had a case of that, just the other day— a thing that has never occurred there before, Four boys came up into my office. They were detailed from the masonry department to fix some pipes, and they complained to Mr. McKean 'that there were some boys in the guardhouse who ought to have been detailed for that. "Well," he says, "I can not do anything for you; I have orders from somebody else. You go down and see the quartermaster." They went down to the quartermaster, and the quartermaster told them to go to work. He notified Mr. McKean that that work was to be done, and the students were to perform it. They again com- plained to him, and he said, "Go up and see Mr. Friedman about it," and they came to me. I said, "You boys are here to do what is expected of you. You are here to go to school and attend to your work both. The Government does not conduct this school so the students can run it, and when you are given a certain task to do the thing to do is to go to work aad do it." And I sent Mr. McKean word that the shifting of responsibility in that way must cease. Senator Lane. Did you send him word or tell him orally ? Dr. Friedman. I wrote out a little note and turned it over to the stenographer to typewrite, in order not to allow the students to hear me doing it. Now, gentlemen, I have here a mass of 100 orders that I have sent to Mr. McKean — smoking, going to town, lack of cleanliness in the building. I have talked to him personally about these things re- peatedly. He corrects them for a day, and then they go ahead. I have reported them to the office. I think he recognizes that he can not do the work, and he recently asked for a superintendency, or position as supervisor of farming; arid in submitting the indorsement I told the office that possibly as assistant supervisor of farming he might render some service. My experience has been that the average man who can not fill a place usually wants a position as supervisor or something of that nature. The Chairman. Now, you have an assistant disciplinarian there — Mr. Denny. Who assigns their work ? Is that fixed by statute ? Dr. Friedman. Well, they have charge of the buildings under the regulations of the school. Mr. Denny is a very good disciplinarian. Mr. Denny's difficulty was a tendency toward harshness with his boys. I had to reprimand him several times about that. The Chairman. What do you mean by "harshness?" Dr. Friedman. Well, he is a big, husky Indian, and he used his hands on the boys. The Chairman. Did he knock them down occasionally ? Dr. Friedman. When I first came to Carlisle I knew the conditions of corporal punishment there before. I knew that the boys and girls were whipped right along, and they were put in dungeons there, in an old guardhouse that was a disgrace. It had wooden floors in it, and the sanitation was awful. I had that thing fixed up and had CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1251 cement floors put in, but even at that the conditions were dreadful. They were put in there for two or three months at a time on bread and water. These things have come to me from employees who were there. A superintendent had one of the girls take her clothing off and put a nightgown on and got her out there in the middle of the court in front of the girl's building to whip her, and have the girls lined up m front of the building there. The Chairman. To witness it? Dr. Friedman. The thing is general information among the people who were there. It was told me by Mr. Ridenour, who had been told by a girl who was there at the time. The Chairman. What superintendent was that? Dr. Friedman. Do you want his name? Pratt. One of their favorite methods of punishment was to put a big sign on the front and on the back of a boy if he had committed a theft or told a false- hood: "I am a thief" or "I am a liar" and march him up and down that campus. The Chairman. To humiliate and degrade him? Dr. Friedman. Yes. The Chairman. What is your theory of punishment proper to be enforced in a school of that kind, taking into consideration the ex- perience you have had there and your knowledge of the pupils ? Dr. Friedman. When I came there I had had experience in other schools. Before I entered the Indian Service I had taught many white students in Cincinnati. I had classes in the University of Cincinnati settlement, and I was at Phoenix, in the Philippines, and at Haskell. I am opposed to corporal punishment; and one of the first things I did when I came to Carlisle was, in speaking to all the members of the faculty, to tell them that I did not want any corporal punishment there; that if it became necessary for a student to be whipped, the thing to do was for the employee to come to me and first obtain my permission; that it was to be done in a humane way, and that I wanted them to understand that as a general proposition I was opposed to that; that in a large institution where there was 85 em- ployees coming from various walks in life, some one is going to abuse that authority, some one is going to extremes, and it simply could not be permitted. I did not let that be known among the students, because I have been a teacher and I have been among boys, and I knew the bad effect anything of that kind would have, but I allowed it to be under- stood among the employees. Representative Carter. I want to ask you if you knew of any cases of corporal punishment that have been reported to this commission, some of them verified by teachers who are loyal to you. Dr. Friedman. Well, I know of some of this difficulty with Mr. Denny, and I wrote him a letter which I have here. I think you will be interested in it. I wrote the letter about a year ago. The Chairman. Do you know of the Julia Hardin case, and of Mr. Stauffer's punishment of her? Dr. Friedman. Yes, Senator. The Chairman. Did he get your permission to do tnaU Dr Friedman. He did not exactly get my permission to do it, but I indicated that he should handle that thing in the way that he found best after ho got over there. 1252 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. What representation did ho make ? Dr. Friedman. He said something to me — there was a great deal of difficulty about it. The girl was stubborn, and I was trying to find Mr. Whitwell, who was the proper man to handle a matter of that kind. He was busy at the office at the time and the matron said she could not do a thing and Mr. Stauffer happened around there and I sent him over. Mrs. La Flesche was there too. She is the outing manager, and it was a matter concerning the outing. The girl had given a great deal of trouble. The Chairman. You do not know this of your own knowledge? Dr. Friedman. She is a very nice girl, and you would not ordinarily think it that way. Her record, so far as disclosed by the teachers, is almost perfect. The Chairman. Now, you do not really know of your own personal knowledge ? Dr. Friedman. I was not there, Senator. The Chairman. What representations did Mr. Stauffer make to you when he came and told you about that case and you tacitly agreed that he should whip her ? Dr. Friedman. It is a long time ago, but as I recall it, nothing could be done. The Chairman. What did he have to do with it ? Dr. Friedman. He volunteered to do it, Senator. He was an employee in the school, and here was a girl that the matron could not do anything with. The Chairman. You have had a great many cases where the boys have defied you and openly violated your instructions. Mr. Stauffer does not go around whipping the boys for that, does he? Dr. Friedman. I do not ask anyone to help me out, Senator. The Chairman. That is the very point I am making. I am trying to find out where he got on. Dr. Friedman. Why, Senator, he was over there trying to help the matron who was in difficulty, and there were several other em- ployees there with him. The Chairman. You approved of this course? Dr. Friedman. It was a rather unusual case. The Chairman. But you approve of this course? Dr. Friedman. After he explained the circumstances to me, and knowing it was done in a proper way, it seemed to me at the time to be a proper punishment, especially in view of the fact of the employees that were there as eye witnesses. The Chairman. You knew that he slapped her first? Dr. Friedman. I do not recall. The Chairman. You thought that was proper, for a man to slap a young lady ? Dr. Friedman. No; I do not think it is proper. The Chairman. You knew that he slapped her? Dr. Friedman. No. The Chairman. Well, he admits that he did. Do you think that is proper ? Dr. Friedman. Well, I am not favorable to slapping students. The Chairman. Well, you might give me a frank answer. Dr. Friedman. I do not think there is any occasion where it is proper to slap. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1253 nT h + >, CH f R , MAN - H e s& y & that he spanked her with his bare hand Mi fell , a Stl f ' t- P16C 1 i kilKUin ^ which was handed him by !I™>5 t ' ? n jI h ? P ? e i h , er; and she was sti11 stubborn and somebody remarked that she had not had enough yet, and he whipped her some more. W, do you think a man who practices corporal punishment on a young lady 18 years old, whose record was good Dr. Friedman. Her record was not good. The Chairman. You just said it was. Dr. Friedman I said she was a nice kind of girl. The matron can give you that information. The Chairman. She said that her record was good. Dr. Friedman. She signed up for the outing party, and signed up again, and refused to go. => x- j > & i . The Chairman. Aside from that— that was an act of insubordina- tion. What I am trying to find out is whether you approved of the action of Mr. Stauffer and the manner in which he punished that girl, and whether it was done with your knowledge in advance ? Dr. Friedman. I am frank to say The Chairman. I am frank to say to you that I do not believe you or he either would have treated a man that way, or an Indian boy of that age. You would not have had the courage to do it, to slap an 18-year-old Indian boy in the face. Dr. Friedman. I have told you my general attitude, that I disap- prove The Chairman. But in this particular case. Dr. Friedman. In that particular case it was done by a loyal em- ployee, doing what he considered to be in the best interests of discip- line, and I shall share the responsibility. The Chairman. You may have to take it all. Dr. Friedman. I shall share any responsibility connected with it. The man's motives must be considered; the man's record must be considered; the man's influence among the boys and girls must be considered, and the effect of that particular case must be considered, and the fact that there was a superintendent teacher there, the head matron there, and the manager of the outing system. Senator Lane. Some of them came in afterwards. Dr. Friedman. They were all there, Senator. Two employees tried to manage that girl — the matron and the manager of the outing system. The Chairman. You only know what you have been told, of course ? Dr. Friedman. I do not know; I was not present. I simply know what came to me from those employees. Mrs. La Flesche came to me and told me she did not think that girl had got enough. The Chairman. Why didn't you have Mr. Stauffer go and whip her again ? Dr. Friedman. I have indicated my general feeling with reference to that. I will tell you another case now. There is a case that hap- pened just a few months ago where the farmer here took a stick and broke a boy's arm in view of a little altercation he had had with him. And I reported the matter to the Indian Office and recommended that the man be dismissed, and the man is there now. Representative Carter. What is the farmer's name ? Dr. Friedman. Mr. Gray. 1"254 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Representative Carter. Is he the head farmer or assistant farmer ? Dr. Friedman. He is head of one of the farms. I am opposed to corporal punishment, Senator. I do not want you gentlemen to get the wrong idea of StaufFer. He is not a ruffian or a man of that type. Senator Lane. But is he the man to slap a girl? Dr. Friedman. I am opposed to any kind of punishment meted out to girls. It may have been that he just simply lost his temper. I was not there. Senator Lane. It must have been something like that. Dr. Friedman. I went through the boys' building here a month or so ago. You say the boys have been doing these things to me. I do not think there is any danger of an Indian boy getting into a thing of that kind. 1 went through the boys' building about 10 o'clock- late at night. I went through because I had continually complained to the disciplinarian about conditions in that building, and they were not remedied, and I wanted to see for myself just what they were. I found some of the boys sleeping two in a bed. There was not many of them had their night gowns on. They were all furnished with night gowns. They had the ventilation windows closed, and a num- ber of them were sleeping in other rooms, where they had no right to be. When I got up to the third story some boy downstairs suddenly turned out the lights while I was in that building with 250 or 255 boys. Some fellow started to yell and before I knew it they were all yelling. They never tried to do me any harm. The Chairman. While you are speaking of that, have they mani- fested any insubordination in your presence ? Dr. Friedman. That was the only occasion I have ever seen of that kind. The Chairman. You have not heard them call you opprobrious names or any names, for that matter ? Dr. Friedman. No; I have not. There may have been something of that kind without my knowing it— in letters or something of that kind. I recently saw a letter written by an employee who was doing that — a man who was mixed up with this fellow Mann. The Chairman. Who was that ? Dr. Friedman. A fellow by the name of Bainey. They were stay- ing over at the athletic quarters — employees, mind you. They were getting the boys in groups around them and telling how this, that, or the other department of the school ought to be run, and using language that was absolutely foul. One of these men was a man by the name of Bainey, a temporary employee. The other fellow was a man by the name of Maim. I moved him out of that building and reported that matter to the office. The Chairman. He is gone now, is he ? Dr. Friedman. No; he is there. Inspector Lixnen. He has been referred to twice 1 , and, in justice to him, who has not had an opportunity to appear before your body * n d« a y anything, I will have to say that I have his affidavit, which I shall be glad to furnish you. He absolutely denies all of these charges that are made. Dr. Friedman. Well, three of the boys came up to my office, and one of them was the caretaker of the building. They came up there (wm.Tsr.E Indian si.'iiooi . 1255 separately and their stories absolutely agreed. 1 know from my own personal observation that he was not a man of good influence. He had charge of the Y. M. C. A. and simply made a joke of it. He never had any regular meetings. The Chairman. Do you remember the case of and ? They were charged with fornication and confined in the county jaii for 60 day. Dr. Friedman. Yes; I recall it. As I recall that case— I think that was the case — these students both had bad records. The boy came from one of the far Western States. The disciplinarian wrote me a note at the time, stating that this boy had been sentenced for horse stealing, or something of the kind. He had been in trouble repeatedly on the reservation. The girl had been in trouble under the outing system and at the school. She lived on a reservation up in New York, and their influences were extremely bad, and it was a very severe violation of the rules — their getting together. After going over the matter thoroughly we thought an example ought to be made of those students. I turned the matter over to Mr. McKean and asked him to take the matter up with the local county judge and see what could be done. Personally I was in favor of their being sent to a refor- matory, in view of their record and the conditions surrounding the case, but they were sent to the county jail. After that they were returned to their homes. It was done as an example for the other students, as well as a matter that concerned them personally. The Chairman. That was done at your expensed Dr. Friedman. At my expense; yes, sir. I want to say in that connection that we sent about four students away in that way — several of them were boys — and that has been done repeatedly in the past, and the court records of Carlisle show that there have been fewer instances of that kind The Chairman. Have there been other cases where they have been imprisoned for these offenses ? Dr. Friedman. There was a boy sent to jail. I had him sent to jail because of continued thievery of some kind. The Chairman. Stealing pies, was it not '( Dr. Friedman. It may have been; but he had been guilty of steal- ing repeatedly. The Chairman. You had Mr. Whit well make that charge. Who did you have make that charge ? . Dr. Friedman. I think that matter was discussed m faculty meeting. The Chairman. Some one made the charge. Dr. Friedman. I do not recall who it was. The Chairman. Do you know that the laws of Pennsylvania do not provide imprisonment for the offense of fornication; that it is only a fineable offense under the laws of Pennsylvania i Dr. Friedman. It may be they were fined The Chairman. No ; it shows, just as you say, that the county judge ordered them to jail for 60 days. Dr Friedman Of course, I am not a lawyer, gentlemen, had 1 took it for "ranted that the judge was doing what ho had authority to do. TheCHAntvvx. While those pupils wrro in ]iul was there any attention paid to them bv the school authorities, or were they left 1256 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. to such punishment and surroundings as surrounded them in the jail. Dr. Friedman. They were undoubtedly looked after by the authorities in the jail. The Chairman. Do you know whether the boy was provided with any change of clothing or not ? Dr. Friedman. I presume any jail looks after conditions of that kind. The Chairman. The statement has been made — and there is some information, though I do not state it as that — that he stayed there 70 days without a change of clothing. Dr. Friedman. That is cause for investigation of the jail. The Chairman. I don't know — if you nave people put in jail you are chargeable with some knowledge of their rights, I think. Now, let me ask you this question. You did not nave any idea of taking those people back after they came out of jail, did you? Dr. Friedman. Oh, no; there was no desire to have them back. The Chairman. You not only did not want to have them there, but you did not intend to let them return ? Dr. Friedman. We did not want them on the grounds. The Chairman. Why would it not have been better to send them on home ? Dr. Friedman. I tell you, a great many of those students come there with very bad records. Once there was a boy sent there who had been sentenced to jail for murder. They send us the worse students on the reservation right along. How can we tell ? The Chairman. I don't know; I am trying to find out. If you can not tell, how do you know ? Dr. Friedman. Because I have the letters after they are there, when some little question arises. For instance, there is a girl there by the name of Minnie Apache. She was at Haskell, and whipped a matron there and-ran away. She eats peyote. She came to Carlisle and started to stir up things with the matron there — and we have a very excellent matron there. The Chairman. Miss Ridenour? Dr. Friedman. Miss Ridenour, a woman that is thoroughly con- scientious, who looks sterner than she is. She has a good heart, and I think she has the sympathy of the students except when they are agitated and aroused against her by persons on the grounds. This girl did everything she could to get the matron to send her home, and I wrote to the agent—Mr. Stoker. He says, "We do not want her here. She has been running everybody around here, and what she needs is severe discipline." "On one occasion she had som? difficulty with the matron, and the matron locked her up here, and when they brought her some food she took the whole tray and dashed it right at them. She had a very stubborn will. We found out on one occasion that her parents were sending her peyote. I just mention that to show the character of some of the students. This boy that I mentioned was sentenced to the reformatory for lolling a man— a very shrewd bov; a man really. Before he got through there he was raising Cain; getting drunk. We have had cases of that kind repeatedly. The Chairman. Do you have many cases of immorality? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1257 Dr. Friedman. I think we have fewer eases of immorality, Senator than yon would have with the same number of white boys and o-irls under similar circumstances. The Chairman. That is a very gratifying statement. How many cases have you had m your administration ? Dr. Friedman. I presume there is a record over there; I do not think there are very many. The Chairman. I presume you do not carry them in your memory ? Dr. Friedman. For instance, in the last year we have had, I think, three or four cases. I can not recall with accuracy; possibly four or five. We have some cases of students who are sent homo who are not- immoral; they are simply incorrigible. While the records may show they have been sent home, it would not necessarily indicate that they have been engaged in immorality. The Chairman. But is it not a fact that in a good many instances where they have in fact been sent home the records show that their time was up, or that they did not return, or something of that sort? Dr. Friedman. J\To; I think when they are sent homo they are sent home on that basis, as a general thing. The Chairman. Do you know of any case in which the record was made to reflect some other cause? Dr. Friedman. I do not have charge of those records, but the clerk who has charge of that knows the conditions, and I do not think he would The Chairman. Who is that ? Dr. Friedman. Why, Mr. Meyer. The Chairman. He is the clerk that keeps that? Dr. Friedman. Yes. The Chairman. I suppose he has to get his information to make those entries from somebody ? He can not make the records up from his own knowledge ? Dr. Friedman. He gets the information from the disciplinarian. Senator Lane. Doesn't he get it from you? Aren't you responsi- ble for those records? Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir; and whenever there is a case of immorality he gets the information from me. (Here followed an informal discussion relating to morality in the school, which was not reported.) Dr. Friedman. Most of these cases of immorality which you speak of happened under a previous matron — Miss Gaither. This is a specific case that I think will interest you. A woman there by the name of Miss Jennie Gaither, who came in under Maj. Mercer's admin- istration — she left a small school in Minnesota where she had less than 100 girls, and where she was inefficient, and she was sent to Carlisle. When I came I saw very soon that she was not a good matron, that she was lax in discipline, and that she allowed the girls to do as they pleased. In fact, she was extremely careless and negligent, On one- occasion all of the officers in her building came to my office and com- plained of the laxity of discipline on her building. I wrote to her about it. She is a woman with a sunny smile and troubles never bother her. I reported that woman every six months for four years and nothing was ever done. I finally told the office that a change had to be made ; that I was responsible for those girls and boys, and that a change was funda- 1258 CAKl.rsi.K INDIAN SCHOOL. mental if the girls were to he properly protected. There was a. heart- rending investigation; everything was twisted upside down, and the result of it was°thal Miss Jennie Gaither was transferred and pro- moted to the position of matron of another large school, and from a salary of $800 to a salary of $840. She is now at Phoenix, and word comes to me from Phoenix — because I was employed there — that she is absolutely helpless. The Chairman'. Who made the "heartrending investigation" that you spoke of '*. Dr. Friedman. I think it was Map McLaughlin. It was the kind of investigation where there was a tremendous amount of bitterness, and she and her sister wrote a lot of villifying letters, and wrote to Senators and Congressmen, and they stirred up that kind of stuff, and it was prolonged. They were sent there some weeks after the investi- gation was made. I simply point that out to you to show that I have been watchful of these questions of discipline', and that they have been brought prop- erly to the attention of the office, but I have no power of removal of employees there. The Chairman. Did you see an article published in the Public Ledger, of Philadelphia," under date of January 2,8, 1914, under the heading of i'Gen. Pratt alleged to be seeking revenge on Moses Friedman"? Dr. Friedman. I saw it; yes. The Chairman. Do you know who wrote or inspired that article ? Dr. Friedman. I think there was a staff correspondent down from Philadelphia. They sent me a telegram, I believe, and wanted me to write something, and I never answered the telegram. The Chairman. Did you give them a statement? Dr. Friedman. No; I gave them no statement. This man came down and spent a whole day and night in town looking around, and he was talking to people in town, and he came out to the school and spoke with me a few moments. I told him I could not enter into any discussion of this matter. The Chairman. Who was this man, this correspondent ? Dr. Friedman. I do not recall his name. The Chairman. Did you ever know him before ? Dr. Friedman. No. The Chairman. You say the article was written by him. Did you refer him to anyone ? Dr. Friedman. I referred him to no one. The Chairman. The article contains the following and other expres- sions: "Politics and revenge and ambition are behind the charges." Did you authorize' Dr. Friedman. I authorized nothing with reference to that article. The Chairman. The statement is also made: Carlisle accuses Gen. Pratt of having invented the charges made by the Indian Rights Association. The big citizens of the town say he is hiding behind the associa- tion, and that he is also using Congressman Arthur Rupley to pull Pratt chestnuts from the fire. It is Gen. Pratt's ambition to return as superintendent of the school. Do you know whether that is true or not ? Dr. Friedman. I have heard it stated on a number of occasions. I heard it stated by a very prominent gentleman in Carlisle. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOCM . 1259 The Chairman. Who was it that you heard state it ? Dr. Friedman . I would prefer not to The Chairman. Why? „ Dr Friedman. Simply because I do not want to involve anyone in Carhsle in the matter. I have heard it from three or four people The Chairman. Who were they ? Dr. Friedman. I would prefer not to give them. The Chairman. I want to find out what they know about it. Dr. Friedman. One gentleman— John Hayes— told me on three or four occasions that he had been together with Gen. Pratt during the summer, and that Pratt said he expected to come back here at Carlisle as superintendent; that conditions now were such in the Indian Office that that could be done. The Chairman. You have read that article that I have referred to ? Dr. Friedman. I read it Thursday. _ The Chairman. Is it or is it not a fact that much of the informa- tion contained in the article came from you or with your knowledge and consent ? Dr. Friedman. No. The man came up there and had his story practically prepared. He came out there and saw me for a little while. The Chairman. Did you see the story? Dr. Friedman. I have seen it; yes. The Chairman. Did you see it when he came out there ? Dr. Friedman. No; I saw it in the newspapers. The Chairman. What do you mean ? Dr. Friedman. He told me that he had seen people in the town and talked with them. He told me at that time that in his judgment it was Pratt and Rupley. The Chairman. Did you tell him what you thought about it? Dr. Friedman. I told him I did not care to venture into a dis- cussion of it. The Chairman. Did he talk with the newspaper man who repre- sents the athletic association — Mr. Miller or Mr. Martin ? Dr. Friedman. I would not be prepared to say that; I do not know. The Chairman. Did he tell you where he got his information? Dr. Friedman. He said he had seen a great many of the men in town. The Chairman. Did he tell you whom he had seen and talked with ? Dr. Friedman. He did not tell me. The Chairman. Did he ask you whether the information he had was authentic or untrue ? Dr. Friedman. He did not tell me what information he had, except what he thought about Rupley and Pratt. The Chairman. You expressed no opinion to him, and would not give him any information ? Dr. Friedman. I talked to him about general conditions, yes. ■ The Chairman. He was a staff correspondent of the Ledger, I believe, but you did not know what his name was ? Dr. Friedman. I do not know who he was. The Chairman. He was sent down from Philadelphia, you say? Dr. Friedman. Yes. 1260 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. You have, no knowledge whether there is any foundation in the statements in that article or not, you say? Dr. Friedman. I am frank to say, as I stated before, that I have heard it repeatedly stated from different sources that Gen. Pratt made those statements. I know from personal knowledge that he has been in correspondence with Mr. Kupley. Now, for instance The Chairman. What are the other sources of information ? You mentioned Mr. Hayes. Dr. Friedman. Mr. Stauffer repeated it to me that he heard it from Mr. Denny, who was a close friend of Gen. Pratt's. The Chairman. Is there any one else you recall? Dr. Friedman. I think not. I heard it talked about in town, you understand. I would not care to mention any other names. The Chairman. I would like to have all the names. I do not know why you give some of them and withhold others. Dr. Friedman. Simply because I do not want to involve anybody in this controversy. Ido not see that there is anything to come of it. The Chairman. We want full information about it, and I do not know any reason why you should give some names and not all of them. Dr. Friedman. You insist upon the name of that gentleman there, and I have no objection to mentioning Mr. Denny's name. The Chairman. Do you remember anybody else that communi- cated that information to you ? Dr. Friedman. I do not remember any specific names, no. I recall a gentleman speaking to me about a visit Gen. Pratt made here last summer, and another gentleman from northern New York spoke to me about The Chairman. Tell us the names of them as you go along. Dr. Friedman (continuing). About having a visit with Gen. Pratt in which Gen. Pratt was condemning the school. The Chairman. Who was it ? Dr. Friedman. Dr. Lake, up in New York. The Chairman. What was he doing here? What are his initials? Dr. Friedman. I do not know his initials. The Chairman. If Gen. Pratt is conspiring to wrongfully oust you from your position here and is actually attacking the school, why do you not want to give us all the information you can ? Dr. Friedman. Simply because I feel that is a matter I will have to attend to myself. I feel that you gentlemen are not particularly interested in it. The Chairman. We are interested in it, of course. Dr. Friedman. I feel that that is a matter that concerns me and Gen. Pratt, and that — The Chairman. All right; we will see whether it concerns you and Gen. Pratt alone. You are a representative of the Government, as we are, and the Government has an interest in it. Did you know that charges had been filed against you for investigation, charging that you had inspired that article and caused it to be published, and that the charges in the article are false and libelous ? Dr. Friedman. I read some such statement in the paper, and when I read it I said this, that if Gen. Pratt was sincere and had a grievance there was a better way than that of getting at it The Chairman. And what is that? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1261 Dr. Friedman (continuing) . Than, by sending charges to the Indian Office and publishing them in a newspaper. That was to settle them in the courts. There is a slander, and he is accusing me of slander and the courts of Pennsylvania take notice of that. The Chairman. When one thinks he has more than one remedy he chooses his own remedy, you know, usually? Dr. Friedman. Yes; I know. " The Chairman. And you can not choose your antagonist's rem- edy every time. Now, can you give the commission any further information tending to show that Gen. Pratt has been attacking the school or attempting to injure your reputation in connection with it, or cause you to be ousted from the superintendency of the school? Can you give the names of any other persons who have communicated this information to you from whom we may get the information? Dr. Friedman. It is a matter I have not given any thought to, and I could not give you any information at present. The Chairman. You state under oath that you had no connection with the article ? Dr. Friedman. I state that. The Chairman. And had no responsibility for it ? Dr. Friedman. No. The Chairman. You are a member of the executive committee or board of directors of the athletic association, are you, Dr. Fried- man ? Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That is a corporation, is it? Dr. Friedman. Yes. The Chairman. Who are the other members of the board ? Dr. Friedman. Mr. Wafner and Mr. Miller, and there is an advi- sory committee, composed of a number of gentlemen Walter Camp, Mr. McCormick, of the University of Pittsburgh; James Sullivan, secretary and treasurer of the Amateur Athletic Union; Dr. Noble; and one or two other gentlemen. The Chairman. It has the actual control of the athletic asso- ciation ? Dr. Friedman. The association is under the immediate jurisdiction of the executive committee. The Chairman. Who are they? Dr. Friedman. I have given their names. The Chairman. Who controls the disbursement of that fund, the payment of expenditures? Dr. Friedman. The executive committee. The Chairman. What individuals ? Dr. Friedman. The entire executive committee. The Chairman. Do you have meetings whenever an account is to be paid, and formally present that to the committee ? Dr. Friedman. No; it does not go through the formality of a meeting, but there is an understanding. Everybody is consulted in the matter. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, when you present an account for expenses for a trip to Washington, you simply make out a state- ment, "Expenses to Washington," giving the date, and hand it to ] 262 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Miller, the clerk or treasurer, and he gives you a check for it; is that the way? ,. , T Dr Frieomyn There was a general understanding when- J came there that on trips of that kind they were to be handled that way. They had always been handled that way in the past. As a matter of fact undo- the former administration of the school that entire fund was handled personally by the superintendent, and he asked no one any questions regarding it. lie handled it himself, and the records show it was handled in u very high-handed fashion. The Chairman. What accounts are properly payable out of that funcK Is there any rule or principle? Dr Friedman. The account exists for the benefit of the school. The Chairman. It ought to be under the control of the school, as a matter of fact, ought it not ? Dr. Friedman. I have no objection to it The Chairman. What do you think, as a matter of policy? Dr. Friedman. I do not see how you can take up the funds. I do not see how you can conduct an athletic association when you have to get bids and proposals on all these little supplies, and get author- ity for this and authority for the other. Your association would be killed. The Chairman. You think the red tape that would be required would so embarrass the administration of the fund that you could not accomplish anything? . Dr. Friedman. It would not embarrass it; it would hinder it, hin- der the proper conduct of business. The Chairman. Why is not that true of the general business? Dr. Frie >m.yn. In the general business of the school you do not have to spend a certain sum of money at once. If you have to spend it you take it out of your pocket, and you are reimbursed. Here area great many athletic supplies which do not permit of obtaining bids, and there are many trips that have to be taken by different teams, and sometimes the per diem expenses exceed the Government regulations. There are many conditions of that_ kind entering into it which wo ild make it impossible for the association to exist if the funds were handled under the regulations of the Gov- ernment . The Chairman. Under what conditions do you charge your ex- penses to Washington and elsewhere to the athletic association? Dr. Friedman. I have done it very seldom; when I go down on some matter of business for the school, or when I visit some institu- tion, or when I attend a game, I have occasionally paid expenses for Mrs. Friedman, in accordance with the custom that has been in vogue there. On some occasions I have had the former superin- tendent of the school there as a guest of the association. I have a very meager salary of $2,650 a year, and I have to pay for my bond out of that. Formerly superintendents there had a salary of more than double what I draw — their regular Army pay of $4,000 and $1,000 extra from the Interior Department, and in addition to that a certain sum of money provided for entertaining. And I simply could not go to these games if I did not go in this way. The Chairman. I see that by check No. 3508, dated October 24, 101.3, a hotel bill at Norfolk was paid by you of $54.05. Have you any r< coll., ction of that item? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1263 Dr. Friedman. Why, y,s; Major and Mrs. Mercer were there As 1 recall it their expenses were included. The Chairman. How long were you there? Do you know' Dr. Friedman. I do not know. Two or three days The Chairman. Was that a football game ? Dr. Friedman. Yes. The Chairman I see here check No. 3139, November 15 1912 expenses to Phi ade phia, Pa, $69.20; theater tickets, $10; additional expense to Philadelphia, Pa, $22. I presume that was a football trip j too ' Dr. Friedman. Yes. The Chairman. That expense, I suppose, embraced your hotel bill * Dr. Friedman. Yes. The Chairman. Also check No. 3138, November 14, 1912, expenses to Washington, $75.65. What was that trip for? _ Dr. Friedman. I do not know whether it was a game or something in the interest of the school. I do not recall. The Chairman. When you went in the interest of the school would you charge it to the expense of the athletic fund ? Dr. Friedman. Why, on several occasions I did; yes The Chairman. Why did you do that? Dr. Friedman. Why, I was there in the interest of the school, and that fund was there for that purpose. The Chairman. That is what the fund was for, is it? Dr. Friedman. The fund has always been used for expense of that kind. Gen. Pratt made a trip to Europe with his wife and family and friends, and spent $3,000. The Chairman. Out of the athletic fund? Dr. Friedman. Yes. The Chairman. Do you think that was proper? Dr. Friedman. No, I do not think that was proper. That was purely a pleasure trip. The Chairman. What sort of business were you on in Washington ? Dr. Friedman. Probably up at the department with reference to school matters. The Chairman. I see here check No. 2848, January 27, 1912, expenses to Washington, $42.20. Also check No. 2929, April 9, 1912, expenses $58.60. I suppose you have no way to refresh your memory. Do you know what that was for ? Dr. Friedman. To where ? The Chairman. It does not say. Dr. Friedman. I do not recall. The Chairman. I think the stub shows it was for some entertain- ment at your home. Dr. Friedman. Why, it was probably a student wedding. There are only two or three occasions when expenses of that kind have been incurred. This last year and for the past six years every commence- ment there is a tremendous amount of entertaining to be done, and a great many guests, and I have always defrayed that out of my salary. As a matter of fact, I have no money, gentlemen; I am a poor man. I have had to live up to my salary limit because of the tremendous expenses out there; and this year for the first time, after consulting with some of the people out there, the general expenses of the com- mencement entertainment were handed in to the association. It was 1'264 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. something like $100. That was a perfectly legitimate expense, and I ought to have collected it every year, but I have always been very timid about using those athletic funds, and I have used them very seldom. In fact, I have gone to three football games this last year, and I have paid for those expenses out of my pocket. I have done that repeatedly; I have paid for those entirely legitimate expenses out of my pocket. The Chairman. I always pay them out of my pocket. Dr. Friedman. But you are not connected, Senator, with an insti- tution The Chairman. I have been — well, we will pass that. Take check No. 2800, July 26, 1911, expenses to Boston, $48. Do you know what that trip was for? Dr. Friedman. I presume it was a game. I do not recall. The Chairman. Do they play football in July? Dr. Friedman. July? The Chairman. Yes. Dr. Friedman. It must have been something else then. There are track meets and things of that kind. The Chairman. I wanted to see if 'you had any memory of it. You stated awhile ago that you had not made many trips at the ex- pense of this fund. There are a good many recorded — not a great many, but quite a number. I call your attention to check No. 2747; November 20, 1911, expenses to Philadelphia, $55. Was that a football trip ? Dr. Friedman. Yes. The Chairman. July 28, 1911, expenses to Washington, $17. Do you know what that was for ? Dr. Friedman. Department business. The Chairman. July 11, 1911, $22, expenses to New York. Dr. Friedman. I visited New York several times for the purpose of visiting schools up there. That is quite a distance back, and I could not recall it. The Chairman. That would probably be school business proper, do you think, and not athletic business ? Dr. Friedman. Why, the athletic fund is available for that pur- pose. The Chairman. It seems to have been available for almost every purpose — newspaper correspondents, clipping bureaus, telegraphic returns from elections, commencement expenses, mileage books Dr. Friedman. I am exceedingly sorry that you did not go bach in the account and look into it m former years. You would have gotten some interesting information. The Chairman. I did not think you would be responsible for that account. Dr. Friedman. I think, Senator, you will find this fund has been legitimately used. The Chairman. Now, let us see. Under date of May 24, 1910, you made a trip to Hampton; at least, there is a check of that date. What was that for? Dr. Friedman. Visiting Hampton, I presume. The Chairman. I imagined it might have been that, but what wore you doing there? Every time you took a trip you did not •charge it to the athletic fund, did you? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1265 GovernST^oum. S ° me ° C(aSi0nS * Charg6d Jt t0 the General The Chairman Do you remember a trip to Hampton? Dr. Friedman. I do not recall it fl J/ 16 C 1 f A / RM f? f - Was not that at the time of. the return of the fleet— what is that Hampton? Is that Hampton, Va ? Dr. Friedman. That is where that favorite school of Judge Ste- phens is. They call it an Indian school. The Chairman. What were you doing down there? Looking for pomts s ° Dr. Friedman. I thought I might pick up some ideas. The Chairman. Check No. 1633, October 28, 1909, expenses to Washington, $87; check No. 1534, September 4, 1909 expenses to Washington, $16; check No. 11S1, January 30, 1909, expenses to Washington, $70.90. Have you any idea or any wav of tellino- for what purpose those trips were taken? Dr. Friedman. They were generally taken in the interest of the school and department affairs. The Chairman. On any of these trips that vou made to Washing- ton over the Cumberland Valley Railroad and the Pennsylvania Rail- road and back, did you use mileage books furnished vou by the ath- letic association ? Dr. Friedman. I may have done that. I have purchased my own mileage books, and used them from time to time for different pur- poses. I never noticed which books were used. The Chairman. On the occasions that you used mileage books furnished by the athletic, association did you ever charge the ex- penses of the railroad fare also to the Government in your account as superintendent ? Dr. Friedman. Whenever I travel on Government expense I use personal mileage; I may have had some one with me and used athletic mileage, but whenever I have charged up mileage to the Government I have used my own mileage. The Chairman! Then you have never on the same occasion used the athletic mileage book Dr. Friedman. I may have used mileage The Chairman. Of course, you know the records in the office show the number of the books, and the records of the railroads show the number of the books used. And they show that on certain occasions those mileage books were used, and your accounts in the bureau show that on the same day and for the same trips you charged that as an item of expense to the Government. Dr. Friedman. That is entirely possible, that I used that mileage, and I may have used a mileage book of the association. I told you a moment ago I have had my own mileage books from time to time, and I have used my own mileage on several occasions. The Chairman. Yes; but when you did use the athletic mileage books you should not also charge the Government with the expense of it, should you? Dr. Friedman. I do not recall any time that I have ever done that. Just as I say, I have had my own personal mileage from time to time, and I have had other persons traveling with me and on my own personal mileage. 35601— pt 11—14 20 1266 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Where do you buy your personal mileage books? Dr. Friedman. In Now York and Washington, on a number of occasions. I have got into New York sometimes on some matter and did not have enough mileage, and I have gotten mileage and I have used that mileage on a number of occasions. The Chairman. These mileage books are always numbered, are they not, so that the book that was actually used on a given trip can bo shown in the record ? Dr. Friedman. I presume they can. The Chairman. Do you know what the state of the athletic fund account is ? Dr. Friedman. What do you mean by that ? The Chairman. What are the assets to the credit of it? Dr. Friedman. I do not know— $25,000 possibly, or something like that. I do not recall the exact figure; in fact, I do not keep close tab on it. _ The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for the conditions that exist in the school that ought to be corrected ? Dr. Friedman. If you will just allow me, here is a letter here with reference to this corporal punishment. It was written to Mr. Denny, March 18, 1913, after the complaint had been made by one of the boys about his being severe in his punishment [reading] : March 18, 1913. Mr. Denny: I have your report of March 17 with reference to a communication received from William Bishop. While no special credence is being placed in the veracity of Bishop, whose record at this school was distinctly unfavorable and whose record since he left the school has been unsatisfactory, I deem it advisable to let you know definitely what the situation is with reference to punishment at this school. About five years ago, when I first came to Carlisle, I allowed it to be known at a faculty meeting that I was not in favor of corporal punishment; that other methods of punishment, such as confinement in the guard house, additional work and depriva- tion of town, drawing money, and social privileges, were more humane and more desirable, because more salutary. I want to place myself definitely on record with reference to this matter to the extent that under no circumstances is corporal punishment to be inflicted by you or any other employee of this school without first obtaining permission from the superintendent. I am frank to say that it will be a, very difficult matter to obtain such permission, because I am not in favor of corporal punishment, believing that it is a relic of bar- barous age, which should be eliminated from every Indian school in the country. The mere fact that such punishment has been abandoned in penitentiaries and re- formatories indicates how unwise it is to permit its promiscuous use in this school. Very respectfully, Superintendent. The Chairman. Before you answer the question that I submitted to you, you said that among the first things you took up when you went there were the health conditions. What did you find in that regard, Dr. Friedman? What were the health conditions \ Dr. Friedman. The health conditions were fair, but there were no such facilities as sleeping porches for tubercular students, and I immediately took that matter up and had some sleeping porches constructed on both sides of the hospital, and on the second story in the rear. I had the entire hospital equipped with the most sanitary equipment. I have pat in a system of records of students so as to keep track of the various diseases. Careful efforts were made to segregate the tubercular patients and to send them home when they did not improve. I went further than that. There were a number (if CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1267 places around the grounds that were insanitary. The dining hall was in a very insanitary condition, and the dishes were not washed properly. I put in a dish-washing machine there so that boiling water could be used. The kitchen was improved and a new floor put in, and the dining room was brightened up and made a better and cleaner place. I found the sanitary arrangements in the large boys' quarters were awful. I reported those repeatedly to the office, and finally we have obtained funds to put up a toilet building there, with the \ riper toilet facilities, separate towels, etc. The same action was taken in the dairy barn. When 1 first came to Carlisle the dairy barn was in a bud condition. The cows were dying from tuberculosis, and a new barn was put up. Some improvements have been made in the girls' build- ing, and also some in the small boys' quarters, although we have not had funds enough to go far enough for that. There was a very bad flooding down beyond the school building, which was a breeding' place for mosquitoes. It was a very, very bad nasty place. I had that drained, and during the last year they raised $2,400 worth of vegeta- bles on that one plot. It was originally made as a place for the school garden, but the principal teacher failed to send students there for that instruction, and it was put in the control of a detail of boys detailed under the florist for instruction in gardening. It is a model truck garden, and a tremendous number of vegetables and other things are raised there. In this last season the amount was $2,400 as I suggested. Other places in the school were drained and made more sanitary. I also sent for a trachoma expert from the Indian Office, and he came and carefully looked into the trachoma situation among the students, and efforts were made to handle that by segregation and by proper treating. The Chairman. Did you find much trachoma there? Dr. Friedman. I understood the expert to say on his investiga- tion that he found a smaller percentage there than at other places in the service. The Chairman. Dr. Allen stated to-day that between 70 and 75 per cent of all the pupils in the school were affected. Dr. Friedman. 1 think he is off on that. The Chairman. How much tuberculosis is there ? Dr. Friedman. There was an examination made of the school just recently, under the direction of Dr. Dixon, head of the State Medical Board of Pennsylvania, one of the Nation's foremost authori- ties on that subject, and he spoke of the medical conditions at the In- dian school with the highest possible praise, and said that the condi- tions were favorable. He compared the death rate during my ad- ministration of an average of about four with the death rate in the early years of the school, which was as high as 18 and 20. The Chairman. Does that correctly state the death rate since you have been here, Doctor? Dr. Friedman. Yes, about four. The Chairman. What was the number of deaths last year ? Dr. Friedman. They were larger last year than they were before. I think there were six or seven. 1 think there were six. The Chairman. What was that due to, if you know? 1268 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Dr. Friedman*. Something that you can not tell. Sometimes these students get a hasty ease of consumption. The Chairman. Do von know how. many died year hefore last; that is, 1912? Dr. Friedman. I can give vou the records. The number of deaths in 1909 was 1; 1910, 3; 191lJ 1; 1912, 1; 1913 to November 1, 3. I think there were a total of about 6. In 1888, with about half the number of students, there were 21 deaths. In 1889 there were 18 deaths. That is the way they ran back there. The Chairman. I vs ant to ask you briefiv about the vocational training at the school. Is that a feature of the school ? Dr. Friedman. It is. The Chairman. What vocational work is done there ? Dr. Friedman. We give instructions in about 20 trades and in agriculture. I can tell you about that. I am very much interested in the vocational training, and it has greatly improved during the time I have been there. When I first came they had an agriculture instructor who was giving instruction in chemistry, etc., in the school building, and he had general supervision of the farm, and was allow- ing the- farm to grow up in weeds. I felt that ought to be rectified, and we made efforts to get a better agriculture teacher, but the results were bad. We w T ere allowed $2,000 a year for an agriculture teacher, and a man was obtained who was inexperienced. You can readily see the situation when you remember that in most institutions agri- culture teachers will get from $1,200 to $5,000 a year, generally nearer $4,000 a year. I felt that we could better results by having nature study taught in the schoolrooms under the teachers and have them go out on the farm, visiting the farm in classes, and having them given general instruction from the farmer, and also sending the boys out there under the regular conditions. The Chairman. Is that the reason the agriculture feature of the school was abandoned ? Dr. Friedman. The agriculture feature of the school has never been abandoned. The Chairman. Didn't you use to have a man giving instruction ir it? Dr. Friedman. There is a man there. We have two instructors. The Chairman. They are called farmers. How many pupils were instructed in agriculture on those farms last year ? Dr. Friedman. If the people there in the school building were doing then duty, every student in the building would visit the farms regularly. The Chairman. Do you know, as matter of fact, that both of the farmers were unable to get a sufficient detail to work the small crops that they produced, and that the pupils that were actually sent on the farm were sent there in the nature of a penalty? Dr. Friedman. If that was done, it was entirely without authority from me. The Chairman. That would be a very bad system. Dr. Friedman. Certainly, it would be a bad system. The Chairman. That is what the evidence shows, that the instruc- tion of it is nihil. Senator Lane. If that condition existed, would not you know it from personal observation? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1269 Dr. Friedman. That was claimed by one of the men at one time and 1 went after one of the people in charge of the dormitory Senator Lane. I know; but if it existed last year Dr. Friedman. I think if it existed it would come to my knowledge benator Lane. Would you not absolutely have to know it * Dr. Friedman. No; I would not. There are several hundred boys there, but only a small number of boys can be detailed out there because they would simply be loafing around doing nothing The disciplinarian is the man who makes out those details The boys work where they are supposed to work. Senator Lane. So it might go on without your knowing about it« Dr Friedman. It might, but not long, because the boys would complain about it. The Chairman. Do you know whether the same conditions prevail m the shoe shop, or similar conditions; and in the paint shop, the carpenter shop— that is, that boys are detailed there for a short time, and as soon as they begin to show proficiency they are taken out « Dr. Friedman. I do not think that condition prevails. They may be taken out for a month on duty some place where they are needed and where every boy on the grounds must take his turn. For instance, there is a certain number of boys in the laundry and a certain number in the kitchen. That is routine work. Senator Lane. I am not talking about that. We are talking about stone masonry The Chairman. Where the trades are taught? Dr. Friedman. They are kept in there, I believe, pretty regularly, unless a boy asks to be changed. The Chairman. If the condition did not prevail, would you know .Dr. Friedman. I see the details. The Chairman. Take the tinner's statement. He states he had with him this year only two boys that were with him last year. Dr. Friedman. The boys may have gone home. The Chairman. Doubtless some of them did, but they did not all go- Dr. Friedman. And a great many students go out to the country, and a great many are likely to stay there for a whole year. The Chairman. Don't you think it a bad policy to send them on those outings when they are studying those trades, unless they are going to have an opportunity to practice the trade ? Dr. Friedman. It has been the policy for students to go out on those outings, and it may break in occasionally on the trade work; but I tell you, Senator, I believe that our trade instruction is thor- oughly organized, and we are getting splendid results with the men we have. The Chairman. Those that are giving the instruction say they are accomplishing nothing. 1 will say to you frankly that we have had every one of them. Dr. Friedman. Did you see Mr. Heir? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Dr. Friedman. And he was accomplishing nothing? The Chairman. He said that so many of the boys were taken away from him and placed elsewhere that it was very unsatisfactory. 1270 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOHI Dr. Fiuedman. I think in the last few months there was complaint to Mr. McKean, and that complaint has not been met -properly. I have had the industrial teachers in my offce, .Senator — Senator Lane. Didn't you go out and look? Dr. Friedman. I go through the shops every day. Senator Lane. You ought to be able to tell. Dr. Fiuedman. As far as I can see, the boys are there. Senator Lane. If that condition went on "and you could not see it— I went through there to-day myself, if you will pardon me, .and I found that condition prevailing. I found the same information was volunteered to me. They are either detailed to something else, or go to the country. Dr. Friedman. They are detailed to go to the country. Senator Lane. And they are accomplishing little or nothing in that way. That is the statement of all of them. Dr. Friedman. I want, with all due respect, to say that I have watched that training, probably many thousand boys. I have watched their careers after they 'have gone out. I have got 50 to 100 of them places at their trades each year. Senator Lane. You have a tin shop there? Dr. Friedman. Yes. Senator Lane. What kind of tin do you use? Is it X, XX, XXX Dr. Friedman. I presume, all kinds. Senator Lane. You can not do that. Dr. Friedman. I might want to make a heavy bucket. Senator Lane. Then over in your blacksmith shop — who is your best mechanic there? Who is your best student in blacksmithing ? Dr. Friedman. They go through a course of exercises. Senator Lane. What is he perfecting himself at now? General forging work ? Dr. Friedman. They get a try at blacksmithing, wagonmaking Senator Lane. Blacksmithing? Dr. Friedman. The making of tires for wheels. Senator Lane. Have you noticed his progress lately in bis work? Dr. Friedman. I have not been over there for some time, but pre- vious to Mr. Linnen's coming I have gone there every day, and have not missed a day. Senator Lane. Have you noticed the brick department, where they are laying brick ? Dr. Friedman. I do not know Senator Lane. And the plastering department. Dr. Friedman. They put this brickwork up, and they pull it down, and they use a very weak mortar, so they do not ruin anything. They have a place erected there for plastering. They put it up, and when they are fairly proficient at it, if there is outside work to be done they are put at that. I will just give you an example, Senator. The boys did all the plastering over the dining hall, every bit of it. They have done every particle of the mill work on nearly $200,000 worth of work on the buildings there in the last six years. They have done every particle of painting there. This year was the first year we have hired paint- ers, and we have 50 buildings.* The Chairman. How does it happen you are hiring painters? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOI . 1271 Dr. Friedman. We had a tremendous job in the girls' building, and I did not want the boys there while the girls were there. Every particle of painting work there is done by the students. The build- ings are repainted every two years, and practically all that is done by the students. Senator Lane . They should be doing it. Dr. Friedman. Why, certainly. That shows they are getting instructed. You can not say they are not getting instruction when they are doing those things. Senator Lane. You said awhile ago that since Mr. Lumen had been up here things had been upset. What did you mean by that ? Dr. Friedman. I want to be very frank Senator Lane. Let me tell you something about that. I used to be superintendent of an institution myself, and we built buildings with insane people. Dr. Friedman. We have an expert mason there. Mr. Lamason is one of the weak men over in that industrial department. The in- industrial departments are generally manned by strong men. We have two men in the carpenter shop. Mr. Herr, the head carpenter, is a very active man. Mr. Gardner, when I came to Carlisle was drawing the same salary that Herr was and there was no one in charge of the shop. I felt that one of the men should take charge, and after observing their work for some time and making inquiries I selected Mr. Herr, and his salary was made $900 instead of $800. Mr. Gard- ner, of course, did not iike that very much, and any testimony from Mr. Gardner will reflect that fact. Senator Lane. The tailor Dr. Friedman. The tailor is a fairly good man. We make the clothing for the school, but very few boys go out in that trade. We do not make civilian clothing. The Chairman. Does the tailor repair the clothing for the small boys ? What do you do with them ? Dr. Friedman. A certain amount of that clothing is repaired in one of the sewing rooms, I think. You mean the outside clothing ? The Chairman. I mean for the small children; yes. Dr. Friedman. I think all the outside clothing is repaired over at the tailor shop. The people at the quarters are supposed to send it over there. . , The Chairman. He says it is not done there, and the lady m the sewing department says it is not done there. Dr. Friedman. They send it down— what is the matter with the disciplinarian ? The Chairman. That is what we are trying to find out. Dr. Friedman. What is Mr. Denny doing with his clothing I Inspector Linnen. Selling it for old rags, thousands of dollars worth a year. , . . , ,, Dr Friedman. I did not finish what I was going to say about Mr. Linnen, gentlemen. Mr. Linnen came to Carlisle m an extremely critical and antagonistic mood. I came there a day or two after he was there, and he did not come into my office until I asked to see him— did not come near me. I have met Mr. Linnen on a number of occasions, and he has hardly been polite. I met torn one day some days ago on the outside of the office Vlding, but he did not recognize me His attitude has been one of hostility, and it has been shown 1272 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. towards the management of the school before both the students and the employees. Senator Lane. Mr. Linnen has not made these statements. They came from the employees. Dr. Friedman. I am making them now, sir. I am entitled at least to a fair deal. T have been investigated before, but I have never seen anything that has been done in the same high-handed manner that has characterized the conduct of Mr. Linnen since he has been at Carlisle. He has objected to certain things that employees were doing, before the students — which is vicious, and any one that has had anything to do with students know how quickly those things will travel. He has talked about the number of people he has gotten out of the service and seems to feel that that is a proper thing to discuss with the employees. His attitude toward the men who he found out the day after he got there were friendly to me has been one of hostility. I think you gentlemen should know that, and I intend to go on record. Representative Stephens. If there is nothing wrong he can not hurt you. Dr. Friedman. What is the tendency of conduct like that? The students take these things up; employees take these things up. They are influenced by actions that begin on one side or the other. Inspector Linnen. You are under oath now. Lr. Friedman. I am under oath. Inspector Linnen. I desire to say that your statements are abso- lutely false, each and every one of them, that you have made here. Dr. Friedman. I contradict you here, and 1 can prove what I say. For instance, Mr. linnen had picked up a paper with this account in it regarding this story of Pratt's, and he and Mr. Warner were going down in the car together Representative Carter. How do you know ? Dr. Friedman. Mr. Warner told me. Representative Carter. You just heard it, Mr. Friedman? Dr. Friedman. I have personally observed these things. The Chairman. That is not testimony, what somebody else told you. I have not objected to your repeating anything that you know, but what somebody comes and tells you Dr.- Friedman. Well, I have seen with my own eyes- The Chairman. You can tell what you have seen with your own eyes. Dr. Friedman. I think if you would examine these employees, gentlemen of this committee, you would find what I say would be borne out. I mention that because that sort of thing is of great importance. A thing like that in the Army would not be tolerated— a man coming around, making an inspection, criticizing employees before students and finding fault with the employees before students. i he Chairman. How is it you can not get along with any of your students and but few of your employees ? Dr. Friedman. Why, that is not true, if you are making the asser- tion by a- king the question. The Chairman. What is the state of feeling of the pupils toward YOU ? r l CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1273 Dr. Friedman. I think, at present The Chairman. I am not asking you what it was last year. Dr. Friedman. At present, from the agitation of certain employees, there is a feeling of unrest. The Chairman.- What is the state of feeling of the employees toward you, as a rule ? Dr. Friedman. It has always been good. The Chairman. What is it now, do you know? Dr. Friedman. There has been a good deal of business going oil here in the last few weeks; a lot of statements made that I am going to be charged The Chairman. You know whether the relationship is cordial or not. That is what I want to know. Are you cordial toward them, and they toward you ? Dr. Friedman. My relations with the employees have generally been indorsed by them. The Chairman. How much did you have in the garden there last year ? How much area did you have in the garden ? Dr. Friedman. We had a little over 6 acres in the garden. The Chairman. You did not have a garden sufficient to supply the school with the necessary vegetables ? Dr. Friedman. In addition to that we had 20 acres in potatoes. We have been the last two years raising enough potatoes. The Chairman. How much potatoes did you raise last year? Dr. Friedman. They raised 236 bushels on the first farm and 425 on the second farm. Last year was not a very good year. The Chairman. That would make, all told, about 700 bushels. Do you think 700 bushels Dr. Friedman. Just a minute; excuse me a minute Senator Lane. Take this year; take it right there in that spot. You raised about 700 bushels of potatoes ? Dr. Friedman. Yes. Senator Lane. You raised really about 1,100 bushels. Dr. Friedman. I must have read the figures wrong. The farmer makes a report here. This is a report for the fiscal year 1913. Representative Carter. Seven hundred bushels would not be enough for the school, would it ? Dr. Friedman. No. The Chairman. That would be a little less than a bushel lor each pupil, would it not? How much do you figure it would take ? Dr. Friedman. They are not there a year, Senator. They are only there from September to April, and they eat a lot of bread. Regard- ing that food business, the students are on a ration. The Govern- ment furnishes a ration, and you can not exceed it. We have to account for the potatoes and everything we raise. Senator Lane. And they say you must not feed them more * Dr. Friedman. No; you have to account for everything. I hose are taken up on the accounts. In this connection I want to say to you, gentlemen, that 1 do not get any vegetables or any stuff from the farm. My predecessors did, but I continued it for a year or two, and every time there was any difficulty with an employee that was one of the charges brought against me, that I was eating Government food, and we get no vegetables or milk or butter at all. 1274 CARLISLE INDIAN" SCHOOL. Inspector Lixxex. If the records show you do, then, they are false, are they? Dr. Friedman. The records do not show we do. The Chairman. Have you examined the records? I will state this to you: I do not regard it as important, and did not intend to call attention to it, but I saw two old reports made by the former dairyman, showing a certain number of pounds of milk delivered to you on different occasions. Dr. Friedman. There may have been some special occasion for delivering that milk for students' use. We have had half a dozen weddings in our house, and we have had 150 to 250 students there, and thev have been looked after. The Chairman. Now, I want to ask you about the use of whisky among the boys in the school. Do they use much whisky ? Dr. Friedman. I do not think they use anything like the amount of whisky that white boys do. The Chairman. Do you know how many boys were in the lockup last night, each one having been sent there for using whisky? Dr. Friedman: I understand there are some boys there. The Chairman. Plow many? Dr. Friedman. Something like six. The Chairman. I understand there were seven. Dr. Friedman*. I did not understand they were charged with drink- ing whisky. The Chairman. What were they in there for? Dr. Friedman. I did not understand they were all there for drink- ing whisky. The Chairman. What for? • Dr. Friedman. For difficulties in the grounds. Senator Lane. If a boy is in the lockup don't you go to see him? Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir; I go through the lockups. I generally go through the lockups once a week, whether there are students there or not. My interest in the lockup is shown by the fact that we had a miserable old guardhouse, and we put up that new lockup. Senator Lane. You have a nice, pretty lockup for them now? Dr. Friedman, it is a lockup; it is for that purpose, Senator. Senator Lane. Home like ? Dr. Friedman. Why, you don't punish these students with cor- poral punishment. What are you going to do with them? Senator Lane. I thought you being the superintendent it would be your duty, a kind of fatherly duty, to go down there and see what the young fellow was in for. Dr. Friedman. I go down there, Senator, from time to time. Whenever there is a very severe case of discipline it generally comes to my attention. Senator Lane. What are your duties, general supervision? Dr. Friedman. General supervision and keeping the condition of the plant in good shape; looking after the finances, the purchase of supplies, the handling of about $200,000 a year, supervision of the work in the industrial departments, general supervision of the aca- demic work, and general supervision of the health. Senator Lane. And keeping up the moral tone of the students ? Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir; I speak to the students continuously, and J see the students in my office when they have any difficulties of their CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL 1275 own I obtain employment for a great many of them on the outside I write a great many letters to former students, encouraging them I write from 6,000 to 7,000 letters a year to former students encour- aging them in right methods of living. Senator Lane. Do you check out through the quarters, down through cook house, and here and there and everywhere « Dr. Friedman. I am always around the grounds. I go through the quarters. b s Senator Lane. Do you examine the beds ? Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What kind of mattresses are you using there ? Dr. Friedman. They are mattresses sent by the department Thev are not very good. Senator Lane. What are they made of ? Do you know ? Dr. Friedman. I do not know what they are composed of. Senator Lane. Did you ever cut one open? Dr. Friedman. I do not know what the material is. Senator Lane. Did you ever lie on one ? Dr. Friedman. They are not very good mattresses, Senator. They are purchased by the department for the Indain schools in the service and they are sent there. ' Senator Lane. And you accept them ? Dr. Friedman. We can not help it. Senator Lane. Can't you ask for a different sort? Dr. Friedman. We have done that with a number of things. We are taking that matter up with regard to coal. Senator Lane. Let us hang on to the mattresses. When a mat- tress gets hard and so it is very uncomfortable, do you remake it and loosen it up ? Do you have a mattress shop ? Dr. Friedman. We have no mattress shop. Senator Lane. Do you work over your mattresses there ? Dr. Friedman. We have no upholstery department. Senator Lane. How long have they been there ? Dr. Friedman. Six years. Senator Lane. Well, if you stay there six years more they will be hard as rocks. Dr. Friedman. Thev are thrown out. Haven't vou condemned a few? Inspector Linnen. Some old double mattresses; not single mat- tresses. Dr. Friedman. That is the general method. It is not desirable to keep mattresses in the school there year after year. How are you going to clean them, Senator ? Senator Lane. If they are hair mattresses it is easy to steam them. Dr. Friedman. How are we going to steam them We have no steaming apparatus. Senator Lane. Well, there are the hair dealers. Dr. Friedman. The general feeling is, I thought, that when those mattresses have been worn out a little bit they are to be replaced. I am very thankful for that suggestion. That stuff is in there, Senator. Senator Lane. And they stay there until they are condemned? Dr. Friedman. Until they are condemned. Senator Lane. And you never cut one open ? 1276 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Dr. Friedman. I have seen what was inside of them, but I do not recall. We get all our supplies from the department. We formerly- purchased a good many of them, and we could select the material with a great deal more care. For instance, our coal — we have always purchased coal, and we have gotten good coal. This year the depart- ment insisted upon the coal being purchased away, and we have a tremendous amount of coal there and it has not given satisfaction. A great deal of our supplies in the way of dried fruit and other food supplies are just beginning to come in, in the last month or six weeks — half of the year gone by — breakfast food, for instance. We have sent letters and telegrams, and the supplies are just coming in, and half the year is gone. The students are there, and we have had to substitute something else. The Chairman. I want to ask you about a boy who used to be a pupil by the name of Yuda. Do you remember him ? Dr. Triedman. Yes, I remember him very distinctly. He is more negro than Indian. The Chairman . He was a pupd there under you, was he ? Dr. Friedman. He was a pupil there, and the question came up with reference to his graduation last year, and he was finally allowed to graduate because Mr. Whitwell strongly urged it against my own better judgment and the better judgment of the senior teachers. The Chairman. How did the question arise ? Dr. Friedman. He is a boy that is a very T shrewd fellow. He had been a janitor there in the school building. He had not been paying much attention to his studies. He took advantage of his teachers, and Mrs. Fester did not feel The Chairman. It was a question whether he had mastered his work sufficiently ? Dr. Friedman. Yes. He was a janitor down in the school building, and he had been in difficulty with boys — taking boys clown town. It was claimed he had taken boys to bad houses there, and helped them to get liquor. When he left there I furnished him transportation to his home, and instead of staying there he came back, and he has been a source of annoyance and trouble to the school ever since. He has opened up a little restaurant near the school there, encouraging the boys in all kinds of evil business . The Chairman. He was employed down there one time by a man engaged in the ice cream business ? Dr. Friedman. Yes; I did everything I possibly could to get him out of town. I told the man the kind of influence he was having on the students, and asked him to let him out, because Yuda had prom- ised me when the transportation was furnished him to his home that he would stay there. You can see the situation with all these In- dian boys around the town — our girls going down town every other Saturday. The Chairman. He is a land of agitator any way, isn't he ? Dr. Friedman. Oh, he is a bird. I have seen a great many boys— I don't know whether it is darky blood or not, but he is one of the shrewdest young chaps I have seen. He got the best of me on that; I did not get him out of town. I have recently been trying to find out whether he has been disposing of liquor to boys, and I had a watch placed on his store, and the man that was watching said he saw boys CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL., 1277 coming out with bottled liquor, but could not prove they got it in Representative. Stephens. Was there a young man that was a telegrapher that you also ordered to leave the town ? Dr. Friedman. I do not recall any boy that was a telegrapher Ihere was a boy down town who was married and getting along nicely. I did not interfere with him. Representative Stephens. When did you abolish that department ol telegraphy ? Dr. Friedman. This year, for this reason Representative Stephens. You still give it in your catalogue don't you? & ' Dr. Friedman. We do not print the catalogue every year. Representative Stephens. Wasn't it abolished last year' Dr. Friedman. No; it was abolished at the end of last year, and we have not printed a catalogue for more than a year. Representative Stephens. You have no photography department here? Dr. Friedman. No photography. Representative Stephens. You have a building? Dr. Friedman. That building was put up before I came, and was for art work and photography. There were no facilities for teaching photography, and it was being used more or less as a loafing place, and my plans are to remodel the building and use it for teaching the girls cooking. Representative Stephens. You eliminated also Indian art? Dr. Friedman. That was done by direction of the department — the Indian Office. Representative Stephens. Since when was that order issued ? Dr. Friedman. Some years ago they asked me about the abolish- ment of the two positions occupied by Mr. and Mrs. Dietz. I told them I thought they were an asset to the school and I did not think the positions ought to be abolished. Representative Stephens. How about the harness department? Dr. Friedman. The harness department was abolished for this reason: Harness is not now made by hand; it is generally made by machinery. They had been having 30 or 40 boys there ; the harness was cut out for them, and they were sewing up harness, and when I looked into their future careers they were not following up the harness trade. So that was combined with the shoemaking. Representative Stephens. Don't your catalogue show also that you have a horticultural department ? Dr. Friedman. Well, that has reference to the florist's work and work of that character. Representative Stephens. Is there anything of that kind taught in this school ? Dr. Friedman. We have a greenhouse. We have a man who is a German and a very competent man. Representative Carter. He is a gardener, too, is he not ? Dr. Friedman. He is a gardener, too. In this greenhouse they start these cabbage plants and various plants for the garden during the spring months, and then they set them out when the proper time comes. 1278 OAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. About the catalogue, Congressman, we have no facilities for printing a new catalogue every year, and the last one that was printed was some time in 1011. Representative Stephens. But your report shows you have a de- partment of telegraphy there. Dr. FniEDM.vx. The telegraph department was abolished the be- ginning of this year, or the latter part of last year, and for this reason: There was no way of keeping tab on the boys. The man who was giving instruction in telegraphy was employed most of the time in the office, and he was not giving any supervision to the boys. So it was found best, on account of the small number of boys taking up that work, to abolish it. The Chairman. Do you know how many hogs have been sold from the farm during this year i Dr. Friedman. I could not tell you the exact figures. There has been a recent sale of a number of them. I presume from $1,000 to S2.000 worth of hogs have been sold each year. The Chairman. Do you know how many have been consumed by the school ? Dr. Friedman. A good many of them. And I spoke to the quarter- master about killing the hogs, and he said that on a previous occasion they lulled a good many of those hogs and fed the students this meat and there was a breaking out of some skin disease. The Chairman. He was afraid to feed them pork? Dr. Friedman. Yes; that is, too much. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, there have been only .-even hogs killed there this year for the use of the students ? Dr. Friedman. The records will show. _ Senator Lane. But you would not have to kill them all at one time '? Dr. Friedman. No. The Chairman. Why would it not be a good plan? Dr. Friedman. That is his idea. Mr. Kensler has been in the work for years. He is a very competent man, and takes a personal interest in the students. Why, gentlemen, to look at those students — you hear so much about this food— look those students over. Do they look like they are starved ? Do (hev lrok like they are not taken care of ? I want to tell you about this food. Since this food business has been started— why, they kicked about the food there in the club where the employees have their own club. I was at one of the biggest hotels in the country not long ago and a bunch of four men sitting at the table next to me said, "The food is rotten." Just the other ?if y ? n £ ° f ^ stl ^ e . nts complained about there not being any food on " " ' 3 agita- )ecause tor the matron." And they got down under the table and dug it out. The Chairman. Of course, each pupil should be provided with a cup and knife and fork and the necessary utensils. Did you know there were many instances there of two or more pupils using the same utensils and quarreling about it ? Dr. Friedman. I presume that has been very current just recently. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1279 ^ The i 9 EIAIRMA f •■■ When an y° ne g° es in to the dining room and sees tnose things and knows that the table is not supplied, it is not quite an answer to say that those things have been very current quite recently • Dr. Friedman. I will tell you what the matron told me She said it was a very difficult matter to keep knives and forks on those tables. I he students take them to their rooms. In one room she found a large number of knives and forks stuck away in the corner and napkins that had been taken out. We are supplied with a cer- tain amount of that material. The Chairman. Of course, some of them get lost and broken, but when a man sits down to a table under ordinary conditions he ou because the maS 1 spoke of was a business matter pure and simple, and I conducted it as such and have regarded it as such ever since. conducted TESTIMONY OF MISS ADELAIDE B. REICHEL. The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane. CarKthoX H ° W l0ng haVG y ° U been COnnected with the T ^W?? CHEL ' : C - &m ? in Au S ust > 1907; almost six and a half years. 1 taught two years m the public schools in the northwestern part of Pennsylvania. F Senator Lane. What do you know about the institution? Miss Reichel Well, I think I know quite a good deal; but I would rather you would ask me questions first, and if there is anything that you have not thought of Senator Lane. Are you under the supervision of Mr. Whitwell « Miss Reichel. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What grade do you teach? Miss Reichel. I teach the four upper grades in history, civics, and spelling, and I have special charge of the freshman class in room 11. Senator Lane. How do you find the students, comparing the Indians with the whites ? Miss Reichel. I think it is scarcely a fair comparison, because some of the Indian students have not always spoken English. I think as far as mental abilities are concerned they are about the same. Senator Lane. Mr. Whitwell and you get along nicely, do you? Miss Reichel. We always have. Senator Lane. You have respect for him as a teacher ? Miss Reichel. As a man. Senator Lane. Do you fail to respect him as a teacher ? Miss Reichel. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. For what reason ? Miss Reichel. Well, I have a number of specific reasons that have come under my own notice — and this is nothing personal. There is no personal feeling. Senator Lane. I want to ask you before you go further, is it in relation to his ability as a teacher ? Miss Reichel. His work in general. In the first place I do not think, Senator Lane, that Mr. Whitwell is loyal to the superintendent. The reason I say that is because in public assemblies, such as the chapel exercises, he has said things that could not be considered as anything except as disloyal to the superintendent. The teachers could notice it and the students could notice it. I do not think it is right for an employee to criticize any other employee in the presence of the students. Ho has also made disloyal remarks in the teachers' meetings, when the teachers were all assembled. I do not know — I can not swear Senator Lane. What did he say ? 1286 CAKLISLB INDIAN- SCHOOL. Miss Reichel. Things being carried over his head, and not having any say about this sort of thing. I think it is largely because he has not asserted himself as principal teacher in his school. I think Dr. Friedman has been very just. I can not say he has made disloyal remarks to the students personally, but this I do know, that the attitude of students who go into that office changes in an indefinable way. There is a difference in their feeling toward Dr. Friedman. So far as you can feel it, there is a subtle influence Senator Lane. Do you think he says something or does something that prejudices them against him? Miss Reichel. I think so. Here is another thing. There are cases of boys — I can mention five boys who have worked in Mr. Whitwcll's office as janitors who did not have enough to do to keep them busy — and these boys have practically gone out of Carlisle dis- graced — those who did go — not because he had a bad influence, but simply because they did not have anything to do. You know this, that idleness will breed almost anything. These boys were Montre- ville Yuda, for one; Benedict Cloud, for another; Joseph Loudbear, for another. The teachers, one after another, put in protests against keeping that boy in the office. Augustine Knox is another. Louis Schweigman is another. Those are definite instances of boys who certainly have not gained by staying in there. Senator Lane. Were they good boys before they went in there ? Miss Reichel. So far as I know, Joseph Loudbear has never borne a good reputation, and he should never have been put in the school building where the girls come back and forth. Senator Lane. Who would detail him there ? Miss Reichel. I do not know. Senator Lane. Whose duty would it be ? Miss Reichel. The disciplinarian usually details his boys, but he usually sends them where they are asked for. Senator Lane. Has Mr. Whitwell ever had them detailed to his service without having requested them ? Miss Reichel. Yes; but if he had requested them to be taken out they would have. Those, are instances. Here is another thing: Mr. Whitwell, so far as I know, is a good man and all that; I have nothing personal against him, but he does not use good English, for one thing. Expressions such as "I have wrote" and "I will learn him" are common. He is at the head of the academic department in a great school. These things are excusable in some people, but not in the principal teacher of a school like that. Another thing that has happened to me — this is personal, but I do not have a personal feeling in regard to it — I have gone into Mr. Whitwell' s office and had him tell me, "Oh, you are crazy; get out of this." I understand it was in fun, but it is not dignified. Those are little things, perhaps, but I think they go to show Senator Lane. That the school is not being managed properly? Miss Reichel. I do not think it is being managed properly. I have nothing personal whatever against Mr. Whitwell. Here is another thing : I have been in Carlisle six and a half years, and during that time, to my recollection, Mr. Whitwell has never con- ducted a recitation in my room. He has never been present in my room to hear an entire recitation. So far as my work as teacher is concerned, I do not know how he can judge it. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1287 Senator Lane. He has not gone through and checked the work you have done ? Miss Reichel. He has not. When the study hour in the school buildings was resumed this fall, after having been discontinued for six years, the order came that the teachers should be on duty in their recitation rooms. He was to go in every evening and note just the work that was done. I do not think he has been through a dozen times. I have not kept a record, of course. When I am there, I cany out his orders; but I do not go around the campus trying to locate the principal teacher. Senator Lane. Do you think the efficiency of his department is not being kept up at as high a standard as it should be ? Moss Reichel. I know it. Senator Lane. It is deteriorating ? Miss Reichel. I do not see how it could help it. Senator Lane. Has he been there as long as you have ? Miss Reichel. Yes; he came shortly before I did. Senator Lane. You have had no chance to compare his work Miss Reichel. No, sir; I have not. I compare him with school superintendents I have known on the outside. Representative Stephens. Are the matron and the young lady pupils in harmony ? Miss Reichel. I think some of them dislike her, and yet I have heard others say they did not. Representative Stephens. What is your feeling toward her? Miss Reichel. My opinion is that she is absolutely just. I think she treats all the girls alike. I think she is a conscientious woman. I think perhaps her manner is misunderstood by the girls, but I do not think we can overestimate the difficulties that she faced when she came in there. Representative Stephens. Do the girls go to her and consult with her as they would a mother ? Miss Reichel. I can not say as to that; I do not know. Representative Stephens. It seems to be a fact that they do not do that; that they are afraid of her. Miss Reichel. A great many of those girls won't go to any of us. I have tried to make plain to all of them that I am first their friend and then their teacher, and yet few of them come to me for anything. Representative Stephens. Do you think there is any d]fference in teachers and matrons in that regard ? Miss Reichel. I think it would really be easier for a teacher than it would be for a matron, simply because a teacher has to do with a smaller number. She only comes in contact with a smaller number of pupils, and naturally is in more personal touch with them. Representative Stephens. What is the' feeling between the matron and Mr. Friedman % Miss Reichel. I think she is very loyal. Representative Stephens. How is it between her and Mr. W Jut- well ? n . , . Miss Reichel. I think she is loyal to him. Representative Stephens. Is there not a bad state oi feeling, in fact, between a good many of the employees of the school and the head of the school ? 1288 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Miss Reichel. I think there is a great deal of disloyalty there. I think the disloyalty on the part of the employees has caused all this trouble. There are employees there — I can not swear to this, but it is a matter of common talk that there are employees on the campus who will speak of the superintendent as "Mose." I never allow any of the students — I can not swear to that, but that is a matter of common talk. Representative Stephens. Why do they call him Mose t Miss Reichel. That is his name, but it implies a lack of proper respect, and I think it is caused by disloyalty among the employees. I think that is the root of the whole thing. If I could not be loyal to the superintendent I would have the decency to get out. Representative Stephens. Then there must be quite a difference between the pupils and the superintendent ? Miss Reichel. I do not know that there is. Those are just a few instances that I have heard. Representative Stephens. Have you ever heard him jeered as he was passing around the quarters ? Senator Lane. Have you ever heard of its being done ? Miss Reichel. I have heard of its being done, but I could not say that it is true. Senator Lane. I want to ask you young ladies if you were requested to come here ? Miss Reichel. No, sir; we came of our own free will. Senator Lane. Were you? Miss Burns. No; I was not. Senator Lane. Was it suggested that it would be a good idea for you to come ? Miss Burns. No. Senator Lane. What was the motive ? Miss Burns. I supposed that the committee wanted to see me. I knew that employees were going over to the Y. M. C. A. hall all day yesterday, talking to the committee. Senator Lane. They sent for those; they were all subpoenaed, and you are the first voluntary witnesses. Miss Reichel. There has been no suggestion. We came volun- tarily. Miss Burns. When I came down last evening I wondered why the committee had not sent for me. When I came I was told that I was to hold myself in readiness to speak if the committee wanted to hear me. And I stand perfectly willing to answer anything I am asked. Miss Reichel. I understand that before we signified our willing- ness to come down somebody phoned for us, and Mrs. Warner came to the gymnasium for us, and we signified our willingness to testify; so while they sent for us last night, it was not a case of anyone else asking us. There is one more thing I would like to mention. It is a peculiar state of affairs to me, and I would like to bring it to your notice. I am not accusing anybody. Perhaps it has been brought to your notice with variations that there is a little trouble about girls meeting boys. Two of the boys in my school were involved in this matter, so I know whereof I speak. The boys were put in confinement in the guardhouse and the girls were put in confinement in the rooms they CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1289 have for that purpose. If I am not mistaken, one of the boys by the name of Irvin Sherman was released from punishment on Friday, the day of the officers' reception. That evening Irvin Sherman danced with two of the girls and those girls concerned in this affair were not present. The following night was a Saturday night and they had a reception, and the other boys who were in this same affair came over there. One of the boys, who was really the worst of the whole lot and who had made remarks injuring the reputation of one of the girls very severely, came in and spent quite a little bit of the evening dancing with that same girl, and he has since been at two dances, and he has spent a good deal of time dancing with the sister of that girl. That was a queer state of affairs. Senator Lane. How do you account for that? Miss Reichel. The boys are not being punished as severely as the girls. Senator Lane. Whose fault is that ? Miss Reichel. I do not know. Representative Stephens. What remedy would you suggest? Miss Reichel. Punish the boys the same as the girls are pun- ished, or even more severely. Representative Stephens. Who is guilty of that discrimimation against the girls ? Miss Reichel. I do not know. I think the girls are being pun- ished as hard as they should be. Senator Lane. Would not the superintendent be the one really to correct them? . . Miss Reichel. I do not think so. I think the disciplinarians are placed there for the purpose of administering punishment. I do not think the superintendent lays down this punishment. Senator Lane. Assuming they do not administer it equally, then it is the duty of the superintendent to see that they do ? Miss Reichel. In case it is reported to him. Senator Lane. Does he not know of this? . Miss Reichel. I do not know whether he does or not. 1 hat is outside of my province, and I feel a hesitancy about interfering with other people's pusiness. _ , , Senator Lane. Do you think it is harmful to the welfare of the institution? „ T . , . x1 , -, .1 _ Miss Reichel. Certainly I do. It is placing the boys where they can get into trouble and get out in a few days, and the girls have to gTlff pp Senator Lane. It is an injury to the institution ? Miss Reichel. Certainly. . , , Senator Lane. Then, if it were an injury to the institution and the superintendent had no means of finding it out and you had the infor- mation, would it not be your duty as a loyal assistent to him to M S rSchel. I suppose it would. I suppose in a way it is a re- flection upon any employee, but still we do not know just how far that has eone, what steps have been taken. Senato?LANE. If you have adopted the course of letting those tbSS go and other employees do the same, would not the superm- Snf after a while get into a lamentable condition where he could not defend himself ? 1290 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Miss Reiciiel. I do not know. Of course, this is an unusual case- Senator Lane. If then- are those things being done, and that is the esprit de corps you have there, is not that detrimental, and oughtn't you to be cooperating? Miss Eeichel. We ought to be. Miss Burns. I have just thought of a case of discipline that I think would be a good thing to tell. I spoke of Mr. Whitwell as h-. ad of the school. This is one case I was concerned in, and, so far as I know, no one else. It never was settled to my satisfaction. There was a boy at the school by the name of Leo White. Ho boarded at the school, and attended Conway Hall. I r' ported to Mr. Whitwell that this boy met a girl outside of the school building— in broad cLnylight, of course, but he stayed there 10 minutes and met her. Mr. Whitwell sent for the girl, and she denied it, and the boy denied it. I saw th-m mc( t, and I was positive that I was reporting the truth when I r< ported it, and I felt it was my duty to tell it. Mr. Whitwell told h"r that she should not deny it, because it had been told by one of the tcachrs, and that they were seen to meet, and it would do no good to deny what was absolutely true. Wh< n h - call d up the boy the boy denied it, and he was allowed to go. That boy afterwards told one of the employees he would like to meet the teacher that told about that. Miss Wilson was the one that was talking to him, and in talking to her afterwards I told her I was perfectly wiling to meet the boy. Then the two girls from the busi- ness department that did Mr. Whitwell's office work went to these students, or at least to the girl — I am not positive they went to the boy — and told them Miss Burns had reported them. I was never called into the matter. The same thing occurred again, and I called Miss Wilson, and she saw them meet. She was a personal friend of Leo White's and he told her it was not so. After he had denied it, she told him she had seen it, and then I called Mr. Whitwell. I really felt it lowered my pro- fessional dignity to allow a boy to say that I told what was not so. The girl was finally suspended, not for any immorality, but for general disobedience and impertinence. Leo White seemed to be a sort of will-o'-the-wisp. He attended Conway Hall. We were having les- sons at one time, and for some reason he was at liberty, and the order came around that the boys, in charge of the large boys' disciplinarian — that is, the boys in my room — should go out to rid the campus of dandelions. So I released the boys, and I had four or five girls left in my room. So I spoke to Mr. McKean and asked him what part of the campus the boys were going to work on. He told me, and I said that the day was very warm, and suggested that I take another part of the campus and have the girls out. Mr. McKean said, "Very well." So we sent to the kitchen for knives, and went out back of the teach- ers' quarters and started to cut these dandelions. They were be- coming ripe and were really a menace to the lawn. I took the girls right back of my own quarters. The day was extremely warm, and very soon one of the girls came to me and said, "Miss Burns, Leo White is sitting up there on a lawn mower, and he is making motions and signalling down here, and we don't like him." So I took them back into one of those courts out of his line of vision, and then I noticed that as the girls went from the school building to OAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1291 the girls' quarters, this Leo White sitting on the lawn mower kept passing remarks to them. Some of the girls flung their heads and acted rather insulted about it. One started to stop, and I just motioned to her and she went on. Then I started over to the school building to report to Mr. Whitwell, and, of course, I suppose I was rather excited. I went into his office, and Augustine Knox was in there. Rather quickly I told him that Leo White was sitting out there and annoying the girls that were being excused from the school building to the girls' quarters. Mr. Whitwell said, ' ' We have enough to do to attend to our own depart- ment." I said, "This is our own department. When the girls are being excused from school to quarters a boy sits there annoying them." He said, "Give me a particular instance. Don't come in here chewing the rag unless you know what you are talking about." I said, "Just stand here by the window and look, and you will get your particular instance." Just on the spur of the moment I said, "Here comes a girl down the stairs now. You look and you will see that that fellow will annoy her as she passes." So Mr. Whitwell and Augustine and I stepped to the window, and, sure enough, Leo spoke to her. Augustine coughed, and Leo was notified that somebody was watching him, and the girl passed by. Mr. Whitwell said, "We can not be annoyed by things of that sort. We have to attend to our own affairs." I became indignant about it. I said, "If that is the way you feel about it, I certainly shall not belittle myself by reporting things to you." So I went back to my girls, and in the meantime a telephone message had come to the superintendent's office to Miss Ridenour to get out of her office and take care of the girls on the campus and send the boy back to the boys' quarters. When I spoke to the girls about it they said that this fellow had been whistlmg and hollering at them. It was a lazy combination: A lawn mower, a mule, and a boy, and a hot summer day. He had a sort of smooth, suave manner, and no matter what I said about it he said it was not so, and I really did not enjoy having my students belittle me in that way. Senator Lane. What 'are the moral conditions out at the school i Miss Burns. That is another thing that I know nothing about at first hand. Senator Lane. We need not enter into it, then. Miss Burns. I hear things, of course. I never have seen boys meet girls except in this instance. .. Then in regard to Augustine Knox. Augustine came over to Mr. Whitwell's office as janitor, and he was a nuisance. He knew more than any teacher, and he bossed the teachers. He would walk into our rooms in front of our students and order us to do things. 1 had to order him to take his hat off one day. I have charge of that line going back at the quiet hour, and it has been rather a worry. There has never been anything happened during that march that I have been able to discover, and the girls have been agreeable, but it has been a worry, because the responsi- bility, I feel, is rather great. During the first part of the year I was rather annoyed at boys who would step from the rooms out to the porches and watch the girls go by. I reported that to Mr. Whitwell the first evening, and he said that we could not have that. He told me to remind him of that the next mornmg, and he sent a note 1292 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. saying that the teachers must keep the boys in the rooms until the girls are at their own quarters. That has been done ever since. Then I complained to him about Augustine. I said, "Augustine comes out into this hall, and he feels it his bounden duty to be pleasant and pass the time of day with every girl that he qan speak to." I knew of nothing wrong that he said, but it was a breach of discipline and an annoyance, and he would step back into the office and watch the companies go. I reported that to Mr. Whitwell, and he sort of laughed at it. 1 reported it again, and Augustine was there, and he said, "The teachers are cranks," which may be true. Then at the teachers' meeting I reported it and said to Mr. Whitwell, "I simply can not have Augustine in your office when the girls are going, or if he is in your office he must stay in there and close the door." I would see that one uniform here and there, and, so far as I knew, there might be dozens of boys in those halls. There is one main hall, with a cross hall halfway down. Augustine would dart about, here, there, and everywhere. At the teachers' meeting he said, "Well, we will have to get rid of Augustine; he is getting girl struck," which was true. The next day Augustine was still there, and he was rather impertinent about the quiet hour. And Augustine remained for two or three weeks. Representative Stephens. Don't you think that the most of your trouble arises from the fact that you have coeducation there, and it is hard to keep the boys and girls separate ? The troubles of both you ladies seem to be along those lines. Don't you think it would be for the good of the community to make this either a girls' school or boys' school ? Miss Burns. I have thought of that myself. I think we are rather sensitive on that subject of the boys and girls meeting, because we feel we have to be eternally vigilant along just that line. (Thereupon, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., the committee stood adjourned.) WEDNESDAY, MARCH 25,' 1914. Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. The joint commission met in its office, room 128, in the Senate Office Building, at 10 o'clock, a. m. Present: Senators "Robinson (chairman), Lane, and Townsend; Representatives Stephens and Carter. TESTIMONY OF S. J. NORI, CHIEF CLERK. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. What is your full name ? Mr. Nori. S. J. Nori. The Chairman. You are the chief clerk of the Carlisle Indian School, Mr. Nori ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have you served in that grade ? Mr. Nori. Why, since, I guess it was, the last part of Maj. Mercer's administration — 1907, up until the present time, I should say. OAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1293 , The Chairman. You are an Indian « Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What tribe do you belong to « Mr. Nori. To the Pueblo Tribes of New Mexico. llie Chairman Were you employed in the Indian Service before you became chief clerk at Carlisle? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir; I was chief clerk since September, 1900. fhe Chairman. About what salary do you receive « Mr. Nori. I received when I first entered $660, and now I am receiving $1,300. The Chairman. As chief clerk, what are your duties, Mr. Nori« senator Lane. If I may interrupt, does that include subsistence? Mr. Nori. No; just payment of bills. Senator Lane. Your salary of $1,300, does that include board and lodging i Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. What are your duties as chief clerk and how are they defined ? Mr. Nori. I pay all Government biUs— all bills coming under the head of administrative affairs. The Chairman. What other bills are there besides Government bills or bills coming under the head of administrative affairs ? Mr. Nori. Bills of a miscellaneous character, which are not appro- priated by the Government at times, according to the direction of the superintendent. The Chairman. Have you any other duties besides the payment of bills, and do you keep vouchers to cover them? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How do you keep your vouchers and what records or books do you keep to show what payments you make ? Mr. Nori. For the vouchers covering payments on Government affairs, I use the prescribed form — regulations that are involved in Government transactions. The Chairman. Do you keep a ledger or book of accounts ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir; cash books, showing receipts and disburse- ments. The Chairman. Do you keep separate accounts as to the different classes of funds ? Mr. Nori. They are all in one book, each having a different head of a different appropriation and different designations. The Chairman. What is the "class 4" fund and what does it comprise ? Mr. Nori. "Class 4" fund comprises funds, that are received from various sources, such as subscriptions to the paper, any products of the school from the manufacture of articles in the various depart- ments, products of the farm, or anything that may be manufactured in the school. The Chairman. That is, when the school manufactures any product or the farm produces any product that is sold, the proceeds of that sale go into class 4 " ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And those funds are paid to you and you keep the account; is that correct ? 1294 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Noel I receive it from different sources — from the party who sells these things, and it is brought up to me. The Chairman. Do the regulations contemplate that all the pro- ceeds of funds that are to go into "class 4" at that school should come into your hands ? Mr. Nori. Most generally all come to me. The Chairman. I know. Has anyone besides you the right to retain those funds ? Mr. Nori. No, sir; I do not think so. The Chairman. You keep the vouchers on the regular blank forms prescribed by the Government ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have }^ou those vouchers now? Mr. Nori. No, sir; they are on file, I presume. There are copies made — two copies are sent to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and one copy of the voucher is retained for our file. The Chairman. Have you destroyed any of the vouchers that you made in the handling of this "class 4" fund ? Mr. Nori. " Class 4 " funds ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. Have you destroyed any vouchers that you took there? Mr. Nori. No, sir; I have destroyed some receipts that are not in — on the Government vouchers; and I have changed some vouchers that are Government. The Chairman. Why did you do that? Mr. Nori. By intimation and admonishment of Friedman. The Chairman. You mean Supt. Friedman of the Carlisle School? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. When was it that he first intimated to you that these vouchers should be destroyed or changed ? Mr. Nori. It was soon after he had received a letter from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs regarding the athletic fund. The Chairman. Was it before or after the joint commission was over at Carlisle ? Mr. Nori. It was before. The Chairman. Do you know about how long before? Mr. Nori. Well, I could not say very well. I just know there was a letter received from the office relative to the athletic account. *-j(f The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Linnen, the inspector, had been over there before Mr. Friedman first told you to destroy or change those vouchers ? Mr. Nori. I did not quite catch that, Senator. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Linnen, the inspector, had been to Carlisle before Mr. Friedman told you to destroy or change those vouchers. Mr. Nori. Well, he told me before and after. The Chairman. Before and after ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What I am trying to do is to locate as nearly as possible the first time that he told you to destroy those vouchers. Senator Townsend. Will you just ask him what he means by "intimation?" CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1295 The Chairman. I am going to in just a minute, when I get the time fixed. Can you give me a little more definitely the first time that he gave you those instructions ? Mr. Nori. Well, the first time that he gave me those intimations was, as I stated, soon after he had received a letter, and it seemed that he had received word from Mr. Abbott, I believe — of course, I do not know, but — telling him that he should fix up his accounts, as he thought they would be investigated. Then he came to me and said, "If the accounts are not all right, you better fix them up," and that was soon after he had received a letter. And then, from time to time, he asked me if the accounts were all right, and I told him the accounts had gone in, and there can not be nothing done to them, and I guess it was — when Mr. Linnen arrived he then asked me again about these records, intimating that they ought to be fixed up; and after he left — after Mr. Linnen left — then he told me that "You had better fix them up, because you will be implicated." The Chairman. Where were you when he made that statement to you? Mr. Nori. I was in his house alone with him. The Chairman. What time was it, as near as you can state ? Mr. Nori. I took some papers over to him about 1 or 2 o'clock in the afternoon. The Chairman. How did you happen to go oyer there ? Mr. Nori. I had to take some papers for his signature. The Chairman. You say that he had received a letter or word from Mr. Abbott ? Mr. Nori. He had intimated so. The Chairman. Who had intimated so ? Mr. Nori. Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. Mr. Friedman ? Mr. Nori. Yes. . Senator Townsend. What do you mean by 'intimated, so that we may judge ? Senator Lane. You said Abbott ? Mr. Nori. Abbott. The Chairman. You say that he had had a letter from Abbott stating that the accounts were not all right and that they had better be fixed up. - Now, what did Mr. Friedman say? Mr Nori. He does not directly say anything. He just say 1 believe they will; I understand they are going to go over our accounts; you better fix them up. I have reasons to believe that they will be The Chairman. Did he say what reasons he had to believe that i Mr. Nori. No, sir. , , The Chairman. How did you get the impression that he had had word from Abbott ? . Mr. Nori. Well, it was— it was a topic of conversation. The Chairman. What ? Mr. Nori. It was a topic of conversation. The Chairman. Yes; but when I asked you specifically what he said to vou vou did not even mention Mr. Abbott's name. What want to £owl now you couple Abbott with his statement What was it he said about Mr. Abbott that led you to believe that Mr. Abbott had sent him that word ? 1296 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. ^ Mr. Nori. Well, he just said he received a communication. The Chairman. From Mr. Abbott? Mr. Nori. From Mr. Abbott. The Chairman. You, of course, did not see the communication ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you remember about when that was that he said he had a communication from Mr. Abbott ? Mr. Nori. Why, I should judge, about two weeks after the office letter came. The Chairman. After the office letter came? Mr. Nori. Regarding the athletic association. The Chairman. That was a letter from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs regarding the athletic fund ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you see that letter? Mr. Nori. No, sir; I do not believe— I believe I did — I am not certain; but I think it was held by Mr. Friedman and Mr. Warner, so I do not recall. . . The Chairman. When was the last time you talked with Mr. fried- man about these vouchers which you destroyed and changed ? Mr. Nori. Well, it was about three or four days before Mr. Linnen came back the second time. The Chairman. Between the time that the joint commission was at Carlisle and Mr. Linnen's second trip there, was it? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Where were you when that conversation occurred? Mr. Nori. We were talking on the walk — in my office there for a while. The Chairman. What did he say to you then about the vouchers? Mr. Nori. He said they ought to be fixed up, and he inferred he wanted me to destroy any evidence there was in connection with them. The Chairman. Why did you infer from that statement that he wanted you to destroy everything in connection with them ? Mr. Nori. I do not suppose he wants to bear the responsibility of it. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not he knew the vouchers and receipts were not right ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. ' The Chairman. How do you know that? Mr. Nori. Because he instructed me to make those. The Chairman. He instructed you to make false vouchers? Mr. Nori. Yes,. sir. The Chairman. What was the character of those false vouchers and receipts that he instructed you to make ? Mr. Nori. Well, in regard to the transportation, especially during the years 1908, 1909, and 1910. There was a regulation prohibiting soliciting of pupils, in a general way, and there was times when pupils had to pay their transportation home on account of them not being there the whole length of time — for instance, if they wanted to visit home. Now, in order to get publicity of the school, he intimated, or, he said, that he had on understanding with these pupils that they should interest themselves in behalf of the school, or in some way to help along the cause of the school, either by gathering pupils or escort- ing them, he would refund their transportation money that they had deposited. These — when the tickets; the tickets are all charged to CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1297 the school, and when the — when the bills are presented, Meyer, the clerk, designated on each one just how they were to be paid and whether from personal funds or Government funds. Then those that were marked "personal" I took over to Mr. Miller, the financial clerk, who has charge of the individual Indian moneys, and secured from him the funds. These moneys received and bills I take into Mr. Friedman; then he designates any that he has an understanding with regarding; solicitation of pupils. These are held out. Their tickets are paid by the Government; but these are held pending their return or whatever— if they have escorted a pupil or if they have inter- ested themselves for the school; that is a matter between him and the pupil, no doubt. In that time there accumulated quite a sum. The Chairman. How much ? Mr. Nori. I should judge between $500 or $600 and some cents. The Chairman. What was done with the $500 or $600 accumu- lated funds, vouchers for which were held out in the way you have stated ? Mr. Nori. When Mr. McLaughlin, the inspector, came there in 1911, I believe — or 1910 or 1911, I don't just remember — to investi- gate certain irregularities regarding his pay roll, Mr. Friedman asked me for the statement of these funds, which is kept in sort of a slip- shape, showing each of the pupils with the amounts and the tickets which they used — a statement, I presume, he may want to show to Mr. McLaughlin. The Chairman. If you do not know what he did with it, you need not state. Go ahead and tell what you did. Mr. Nori. I made the statement and gave it to him, with the money, in an envelope. The Chairman. Gave it to whom ? Mr. Nori. Gave it to Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. Where had this $500 or $600 that you have described been kept prior to your giving it to Mr. Friedman ? Mr. Nori. In the safe. The Chairman. You say it was in an envelope? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know what he did with that $500 or $600 ? Mr. Nori. I do not know what he did with it. The Chairman. Did he ever return it to you ? Mr. Nori. No, sir; I imagine he disposed of it as it was intended. The Chairman. You imagine, but you do not know. What became of the vouchers that related to this $500 or $600 ? Mr. Nori. They were vouchered previously. The Chairman. That fund had already been vouchered— credit had been taken with the Government, but the money had been held in the safe there in an envelope and was finally paid over by you to Friedman ? Mr. Nori. Turned over to him. The Chairman. Sir ? Mr. Nori. Turned over to him. Senator Lane. Is that the regular procedure and the propel thing to do? _ ., . , , Mr. Nori. That is a matter I can not question— the superintend- ent— I do not think it is proper. 35601— pt 11—14 22 1298 CARLISLE INDIAN" SCHOOL. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you knew it was not proper ? Mr. Nori. I do not think it was. The Chairman. You knew that when the voucher of any person was taken for money that the money should go to that person ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long had that fund been in the safe before you delivered it to Mr. Friedman ? Mr. Nori. Of course, it accumulated from time to time — from 1908 to 1910. The Chairman. Do you know of any cases where the Government fund was charged with the transportation of pupils for trips that they never made ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much of that class of funds was there, and how was it handled ? Just explain that as you did the other. Mr. Nori. In that respect, for instance, if a boy or a person had interested himself, that is, for the school, it was — whatever it was, the amount that he had incurred or supposed to have incurred, was made up in a ticket form and charged to the Government. The Chairman. His voucher was taken or a voucher was taken for transportation which was not used, in order to pay him for some- thing else? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know what he was supposed to have done Mr. Nori. To receive the money? The Chairman (continuing). To receive any money at all? Mr. Nori. He should have presented a traveling expense voucher. The Chairman. A what ? Mr. Nori. He should have presented a traveling expense voucher against the Government. The Chairman. Did he do that ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. Did the Government actually pay those items of money that you have referred to on tickets 'and transportation that was not actually used, and who got the money ? Mr. Nori. You mean The Chairman. I mean this: When a voucher was taken for a ticket for, say, John Smith, from Carlisle, Pa., for instance, to some point in Idaho, and he never made the trip at all, was the money actually paid out on the voucher ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. What was done with it ? Mr. Nori. It was placed in that envelope. The Chairman. In which envelope ? Mr. Nori. Mr. Friedman's. The Chairman. In the envelope that was finally delivered to Mr. Friedman ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did the superintendent get credit for the Gov- ernment voucher? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In his accounts ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1299 The Chairman. So that the method was, if I understand you, to draw money out of the fund on a voucher showing that the pupil had taken the trip at the Government expense ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The money drawn on that voucher was placed in an envelope and kept in the safe ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Along with other funds similarly drawn ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Until finally $500 or $600 had accumulated and you delivered it to Mr. Friedman in an envelope ? Mr. Nori. Just a moment. In that respect, Senator, there were, of course, other funds received, such as the sale of old iron, old bones, old rags — which are not "class 4" money, you understand. The Chairman. What are they? Mr. Nori. ' 'Class 1 " money, revertible to the Treasury Department, which the disbursing officer can not receive any claim for disburse- ment; that is, it reverts back into the Treasury. The Chairman. How much of that "class 1 " money, coming from the sources that you have just described, was received there that you know of ? Mr. Nori. Oh, I should judge between — maybe about $300. The Chairman. That should have gone into the Treasury ? Mr. Nori. That should properly have gone into the Treasury. The Chairman. Did it go into the Treasury ? Mr. Nori. Not unless he put it in without my knowledge. The Chairman. What did you do with it? Mr. Nori. I gave it to Friedman, supposing he would dispose of it, or, if he wanted to use it for some purpose, I would not be able to state. The Chairman. Since you have been there, have you ever paid anything out of this "class 1" funds back into the Treasury? Have you covered any part of the moneys received from such sources back into the Treasury ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. But there has been about $300 received from the sale of bones and rags and scrap iron that you paid over to Friedman ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you take any receipt for that ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. How did you come to pay it over to him ? Mr. Nori. I believed he was responsible for it, and if he— I was his subordinate— I could not very well . The Chairman. How did you come to pay it over to him i Did you just go and say to him, "Here, Mr. Friedman, is $271 that you can take and use' ' ? . Mr Nori He asked me for a statement of this particular fund, as I stated, and I made out the statement showing in detail all these transactions, debit and credit, and he said he wanted— he would like to have it, and that is all there was to it. The Chairman. He asked you then for the tund i Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. ,,. , A Senator Lane. What is your usual custom of turning this tund over into the Treasury— do you turn it in or does he turn it m ? 1300 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Nori. The custom? Senator Lane. What is the custom or the habit? Do j r ou turn these moneys over to him, funds from "class 1," or do you turn them over to the Government, as a rule ? Mr. Nori. I take them to him first. The Chairman. What do the regulations require? Mr. Nori. They should be turned into the The Chairman. I know, but by whom? Mr. Nori. By the disbursing officer. The Chairman. Who is the disbursing officer? Mr. Nori. Friedman. The Chairman. The regulations require that he shall turn it into the Treasury ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know how any part of that approximately $300 was used by him ? Mr. Nori. Well, I believe the purchase of stamps was one item, the payment of affidavits under exceptions and various sundry articles that may be used for the office or for purposes that he did not want to go through the regular formality of securing authority for, but how much of that I am unable to state. The Chairman. Do you know of any sum, in addition to this ap- proximately $300 to which you have referred, of the same class, that was received by Friedman and used for a personal purpose ? Mr. Nori. I can not say. The Chairman. Do you know of a fund of about $271 that was paid out on the furniture ? Mr. Nori. That is from sale such as old iron, and so forth. The Chairman. That is " Class 1 " funds, is it not ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. All right. What became of that $271, and how was that handled ? (After a pause.) Come along with it. Mr. Nori. That was paid out of that fund to buy some furniture for Superintendent Friedman's house. The Chairman. Why did you not tell me that a while ago, when I first asked you ? Had you forgotten about it ? (No response.) The Chairman. Did you handle that fund ? Mr. Nori. No, sir — Kensler. The Chairman. Kensler handled that? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Was that ever turned over to you? Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. Were there other moneys besides those you have described that were received from individual pupils that were paid over to Friedman by you ? Mr. Nori. At the end of every month this matter was always taken up with the superintendent, and, as I say, he designates on there which to hold back and the rest — the tickets were paid for — what was held back was vouchered on the Government. The Chairman. How did that happen to be done? Mr. Nori. What did you say? The Chairman. How did that happen to be done, who caused it to be done ? CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1301 Mr. Nori. The superintendent, The Chairman. What was done with those moneys which were voucnered against the Government by you ? Mr. Nori. It was turned over to Mr/Friedman Senator Lane. For my information, is not that the regular custom for them ? mone y s over fc o him, and do:s he become responsible Mr. Nori. Yes, sir; he is responsible for them. Senator Lane. Does this differ from any other transaction « Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Lane. Are these false vouchers « Mr. Nori. What did you say ? Senator Lane. Are these false vouchers ? Mr Nori. Well, if he had an understanding with a pupil that he would interest himself for the school Senator Lane. That is against the regulations ? Mr. Nori. Yes. Then, he would voucher his ticket and hold the money. The Chairman. You understand the pupil had already paid his money for the ticket and deposited it there ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. So that that was drawn upon a voucher that was false, if the pupil had already paid his money ? Mr. Nori. Yes. The Chairman. You said awhile ago there was a regulation against soliciting pupils for the schools ? Mr. Nori. Yes. The Chairman. Was that a printed regulation ? Mr. Nori. I believe it was a printed regulation. Senator Townsend. Who issued that regulation ? _ Mr. Nori. The department; I think it is issued from the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs' office. Senator Townsend. That is, they did not want the superintendent to get any more pupils down there at the school ? Mr. Nori. Did not want them to solicit — did not want anybody to go out and solicit — had to devise some other means. There was no solicitation allowed all over the service. Mr. Carter. When was that regulation issued, Mr. Nori? Mr. Nori. It was during 1908 or 1909 — I can not recall. The Chairman. Do you recall about the total amount of money claimed to have been paid over to Mr. Friedman on false vouchers ? Mr. Nori. Well, I should judge about $1,500, more or less. The Chairman. Do you keep any account of it ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. What is the total amount of vouchers and receipts that you destroyed since this investigation began? Mr. Nori. I destroyed receipts that I had given to Mr. Miller, the banker. . The Chairman. Where did you get them ? Mr. Nori. I got them from Mr. Miller's office. The Chairman. How did you get them ? Mr. Nori. I went in there and just took them. The Chairman. What time was it when you got them? Mr. Nori. One evening about 8 or 9 o'clock. 1302 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Was he there? Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. He did not know you were getting them? Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. How many times did you go there and take receipts and vouchers for that purpose ? Mr. Nori. Twice. The Chairman. When was the last time ? Mr. Nori. The last time was just before Mr. Linnen arrived on his last trip. The Chairman. Now, I want you to tell me as definitely as you can what vouchers and receipts you took the first time from Mr. Miller's office. Mr. Nori. Well, I took the receipts that I thought would involve the years of 1908, 1909, and 1910. The Chairman. Receipts for what ? Mr. Nori. Receipts for tickets that I had given to Mr. Miller. The Chairman. Do you mean for the tickets covered by both accounts that you have referred to ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. They were the false vouchers that you had issued for those years ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Why did you take those for those particular years at that time ? Just explain that to me. Mr. Nori. Because it would involve that amount that was turned over to Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. At whose instance did you get those vouchers, and what did you do with them ? Mr. Nori. At the instance of Mr. Friedman, and I burned them. Senator Townsend. What did Mr. Friedman say to you about those vouchers that caused you to go over there and get them ? Mr. Nori. He said, "You should destroy them," or "Destroy the evidence." Senator Townsend. Where did he tell you that ? Mr. Nori. He told me that in a private conversation. Senator Townsend. Where ? Mr. Nori. On the walks between his house and the office. Senator Townsend. That was something more than an intimation; that was a direct order to you to do that, was it not ? Mr. Nori. He said it would involve me, and told me that the evi- dence had better be destroyed ; that is all. The Chairman. Will you give, as nearly as you can, the exact lan- guage that Friedman used, and what you said to him? Just give the conversation in detail, as near as you can. Mr. Nori. He said, "Well, Mr. Nori, what have you done about those vouchers that we spoke about?" "Well," I said, "Mr. Fried- man, there is really hardly anything worth while doing, because," I said, "the only thing that can happen now is to — is to offset this investigating committee here, but," I said, "it won't change the vouchers that are in the auditor's office." I said, "The only thing, probably, would be to destroy the evidence." He says, "You better destroy the evidence, because," he says, "you are involved in it, and you will be liable for it." CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1303 The Chairman. How long was it after that before you went after them? Mr. Nori. Well, I guess it was three days after. The Chairman. Was that before the joint commission visited Carlisle ? Mr. Nori. No; that was after. The Chairman. How long after? Fix the time as definitely as you can. Mr. Nori. About three days before Mr. Linnen arrived. The Chairman. You mean the second time ? Mr. Nori. The last trip. The Chairman. Then you got the false vouchers for the three years you have spoken about. What did you get the second time, and how did you happen to go back ? Mr. Nori. Well, I went back and took those from there on, some of them. The Chairman. Why did you not get them all the first time? What did you want to make two bites at it for ? Mr. Nori. I was more concerned — Friedman was more concerned about that, as I thought that sum of $500 or S600 The Chairman. That was what you especially had in mind when you first went down there ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How did you come to change your mind, and think that you ought to get them all ? Mr. Nori. Well The Chairman. Did he say anything to you about it after that that caused you to think you had better go back and get some more ? Mr. Nori. He told me, he said, "You are going to be liable for anything that may be found — any irregularities." The Chairman. Then, he did know Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman (continuing). That you were going to get those vouchers and receipts and destroy them ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Was it after you got the first vouchers and receipts that he told you or made the statement to you which you have just quoted ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That you were going to be liable I Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. . The Chairman. When did you go back the second time to get the additional vouchers and receipts ? Mr. Nori. It was in the evening about 8 o'clock. The Chairman. Can you tell what date it was ? Mr. Nori. I can not say. . The Chairman. How long was it after that first trip down there to get the vouchers and receipts ? Mr. Nori. About a week between, I guess. The Chairman. About a week between ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. . +;™„9 The Chairman. Was Mr. Linnen m Carlisle at that time t Mr. Nori. I don't recall; he was in and out so much— I am not certain. 1304 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Now, what did you get the second trip you were down there— what vouchers and receipts, please, sir? Mr. Nori. The second trip? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Nori. Why, I just explained that I got the 1909—1908, 1909, and 1910 receipts. . The Chairman. No; if I understood you correctly, you explained that that was what you got the first time. Now, I have asked you what you got the second time. Mr. Nori. The receipts thereafter. The Chairman. Well, what were they, for what years? Mr. Nori. For 1911 and 1912, I believe. The Chairman. What was the character of those receipts— were they for false vouchers, too ? Mr. Nori. Not exactly; they were not for false vouchers, but there might be some of them that might have been vouch ered against the Government. The Chairman. How many, all told, did you get? Mr. Nori. Oh, between 12 and 13, I imagine. The Chairman. Where did you find them? Mr. Nori. In Miller's files and office. The Chairman. Were they Government records filed there by Miller ? Mr. Nori. Well, I do not know whether you would call them Gov- ernment records, but I imagine The Chairman. You imagine they were? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What was the bulk of the papers that you got the first time —what sized volume was it ? Mr. Nori. They were just tabulated papers, that is, showing the names of the pupils and the amounts they had deposited with Miller and turned over to me. Senator Lane. I want to ask him a question right there. Did you take a list of the names with you, so you would know which vouchers to take back with you ? Mr. Nori. Did I take the list? Senator Lane. You knew which ones you were going after, did you ? Mr. Nori. I just imagined that the years would indicate just Senator Lane. Did you take all that covered those years? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Were you familiar enough with that office to go and pick those out without any trouble ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. You knew where he kept them ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. All right. The Chairman. There was no one there either time when you got those papers ? Mr Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. You went secretly and you did not want anybody to know it ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman What did you do with them after you got them ? Just tell where you took them and what disposition you made of them. CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1305 Mr. Nori. I took them to my house and put them in the stove. The Chairman. You did not go over them with anvbodv ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. How many papers, all told, were there that you destroyed in that way ? Mr. Nori. Well, all of those receipts— 12 or 13 of them. The Chairman, About how many names were there on those receipts, do you know? Mr. Nori. Well The Chairman. What? Mr. Nori. It is pretty hard to tell— might be 200 or more or less. The Chairman. Were any vouchers drawn among the list of those destroyed that had not been approved by Friedman ? Mr. Nori. Any vouchers drawn? The Chairman. That had not been approved by him? Mr. Nori. Everything is approved by him. The Chairman. Yes. Is there a place on the vouchers for his approval in writiDg ? Mr. Nori. No; he has to sign The Chairman. He has to sign them? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. All of these vouchers that you destroyed were signed by him ? Mr. Nori. No; these are just receipts between Mr. Miller and myself. The Chairman. Receipts between Miller and yourself ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What have you to show that you did not get those moneys and keep them ? Mr. Nori. I have nothing to show. Senator Lane. I want to ask him, right there, a question. Are these receipts in triplicate or duplicate, and one set filed over here ? Mr. Nori. No; it is just the receipts between myself and Miller. Senator Lane. When you destroyed them all evidence disappeared ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Lane. Where is the rest of it? Mr. Nori. You see these vouchers and things are in the auditor's office here. Senator Lane. The auditor in Washington? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Duplicates of these? Mr. Nori. One is kept by the Indian Affairs, I imagine, and the other is in the auditor's department. Senator Lane. These receipts ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Then your destroying them there would not destroy the evidence still existing here ? Mr. Nori. No, sir; it is only just to keep them out of the sight of the investigating committee. Senator Lane. At the school ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Eepresentative Carter. Do you mean that you destroyed dupli- cates or triplicates of the receipts that passed between you and Miller ? 1306 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Noei. No, sir; only one. The Chairman. If the commission or its agent could not get tne receipts to show what boys had paid their transportation, for instance, in advance, it would be very difficult to check it, would it not? Mr. Nori. Yes, s ; r. The Chairman. They could not check it? Mr. Nori. Could not check it. The Chairman. Do you know anything about the accounts of the superintendent for traveling expenses, and do you know whether there is any duplication in that or not? Mr. Nori. You mean his personal traveling expenses ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How was that handled ? Mr. Nori. Well, if there were expenses that he had incurred for traveling expense that he could not pass through the regular channel of the Government voucher, why, he would utilize the athletic fund; and then, for instance, he might get a mileage book— he would get the mileage book, and then charge the mileage on account, and then the athletic account would be charged for the mileage book, and the Government would be charged for the mileage used. The Chairman. Do you know whether that was frequently prac- ticed by him or not ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The athletic fund would buy a mileage book, and he would use that, and then when he made his account as superin- tendent, he would voucher that against the Government? Mr. Noei. Yes, sir. The Chairman. So that it was paid twice in that way ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know about his trip to California? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How was that handled — the expense of it? Mr. Nori. I think he got a sum of money from the athletic fund, and it was my impression that he used some of this fund — about $150. The Chairman. Some of which fund, do you mean? Mr. Nori. That he had in hand. The Chairman. Do you know whether he vouchered the Govern- ment for it? Mr. Nori. I think it all came on one voucher. The Chairman. Did you know at the time you made those vouchers for Friedman for his traveling expenses that they were false ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you ever say anything to him about it or call his attention to it ? Mr. Nori. I gave him — I say, I do not think it was proper, but he would say, "Oh, let it go; it will pass"; he says, "The athletic fund is something that has nothing to do with the Government, you know." The Chairman. He said the Government had nothing to do with the athletic fund ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Were there many cases where vouchers were presented there, where questions arose as to the right to charge them against the Government, where he insisted on passing them that way? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1307 Mr. Noki. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That was frequently done « Mr. Nori. Frequently. The Chairman. What was the class of expenditures covered by those vouchers mostly ? Mr. Nori. For instance, anything he would like to get for his house such as curtains or rugs, etc., I generally sent down to Kensler the quartermaster, for his 0. K., and he would send them back, saying 1 don t know anything about this— can not pass, because don't know anything about it." So I would take it to Friedman and say, Kensler does not know anything about this; he does not want to pass— does not want to O. K. it" "Well, just leave it here for me for a while. I will think it over." Maybe a week or so, he will say, Put this on Government voucher, and make it for fitting up em- ployees' quarters," whereas it was fitting up his own house, and if he could not pass it then, it was charged to the athletic fund. The Chairman. He first sent it down to Kensler, and Kensler would refuse to O. K. it because he knew it was not properly charge- able against the Government? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And then Friedman would hold it awhile ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And instruct that it be vouchered against the 1 ovjrnment ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And charge it to fitting up employees' quarters, and it was known it was for his own quarters ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then, if that would not go, it would be charged against the athletic fund? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know anything about that typewriter account ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Have you ever had any trouble with Miller or Friedman ? Mr. Nori. I do not stand very well with either one of them. Senator Townsend. Why ? What is the trouble ? Mr. Nori. Well, Friedman has endeavored to have me removed since these things — he had an examination by the civil service insti- gated, I believe; and then he has asked me to secure a transfer if possible. I believe he wanted to get me away, so in case sometime it would come up — and put the whole blame on me for these irregu- larities. Senator Townsend. You knew they were irregular all the time, did you ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Why did you not complain about them ? Mr. Nori. Well, I thought I was implicated in it, and I was doing it for my own protection, in a way. Senator Townsend. Did you get anything out of it ? Mr. Nori. No, sir; not — not directly. Senator Townsend. Well, indirectly, did you get anything? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. 1308 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Senator Townsend. What did you get? Mr. Xori. Used about $100 to pay for expenses of my wife when she went out West- Senator Townsend. What else? Mr. Nori. Purchase of stamps and other material used for office. Senator Townsend. What else did you get out of it ? Mr. Xori. That is all I can recall. Senator Townsend. Oh, you know whether you got anything more than that, don't you ? Mr. Xori. Oh, yes. Senator Townsend. Did you not get anything besides that ? Mr. Xori. Xo, sir. Senator Townsend. You did not make any complaint to any inspector when he came around there that Friedman was issuing false vouchers or anything of that kind? Mr. Xori. Xo, sir; because I knew that it would come in time. Senator Townsend. What would come in time ? Mr. Xori. Any irregularities that may be found. Senator Townsend. You knew you were causing those irregu- larities, did you not ? Mr. Xori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. And yet he wanted to get rid of you after that? Mr. Xori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Did he tell you not to tell on him? Mr. Xori. Xo; he did not say that. Senator Townsend. He knew you would tell on him, did he not, if he turned you off? Mr. Xori. I believe he would — he knows that. Senator Townsend. You said at the start that he "intimated" he wanted you to do certain things. Did he ever tell you right out and out to do certain things that were irregular? Mr. Nori. No — you mean as far as making accounts? Senator Townsend. Yes. Mr. Xori. Xo; he would ask me if I fixed them up — "Are they fixed all right" — yes, sir. Senator Townsend. What did you understand when he asked if they were fixed all right? Mr. Xori. Why, fixed the way he would like to have them passed through. Senator Townsend. He did not tell you, you say, about that — how he wanted them fixed? Mr. Nori. I do not just know what you have reference to. Senator Townsend. He never told you how to fix them, did he ? Mr. Nori. Sometimes he did. Senator Townsend. What did he tell you ? What did he say to you about fixing them? Mr. Nori. Well, he would say, "Fix them so they will pass, according to regulations. Change the — change the bills, or change the form to come within the prescribed way. Senator Townsend. Did you make any such changes ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. You have not told us about that. What did you change? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1309 Mr. Nori. Well, lots of things — I can not just recall. Senator Townsend. Tell me about some things that you changed to make it correspond to the regulations. Mr. Nori. Well, if there were 250 pounds of lead bought and we had only authority for 200, why, that voucher was changed to read 200 and maybe another item placed there, too. Senator Townsend. Another item placed to Mr. Nori. Yes; to make up the amount. Senator Townsend. What item would you substitute, for instance ? Mr. Nori. Something of a similar character. The Chairman. Excuse me. You mean that an item that was not purchased would be charged up to make up for that ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Do you keep any stock account up there ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Who does that? Mr. Nori. Mr. Kensler. Senator Lane. Mr. Kensler here ? Senator Townsend. Does not your account have to correspond with his — do you not check up against each other ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Have you done that ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Has he fixed his books to correspond with yours, too? Mr. Nori. Well, he has a book of his own there. Senator Townsend. Well, has he fixed it ? Do you know whether he has or not ? Mr. Nori. I do not know. Senator Townsend. He would have to do it in order to make your accounts come out all right, would he not ? Mr. Nori. I reckon so. Senator Townsend. He would have to be a party to this corrup- tion down there, whatever it was, just as you would ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. How long has that been going on? Mr. Nori. Ever since he [Friedman] has been there. Senator Townsend. Since 1907 ? Mr. Nori. 1908. . Senator Townsend. Things have been going along in this way that you have described all the time since then ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Do you actually know whether this man ' Friedman has had any money and expended it for his own use that he was not entitled to use ? Mr Nori. No: I do not know personally, but from— he is very adverse to paying any bills of his own. That I know-he will not pay for anything if he can help it Senator Townsend. What biUs, for instance, do you refer to now? Mr. Nori. Bills that may be in a nature convertible to the brovern- m Senator Townsend. Do you know whether he has purchased any- thing and charged it up to the Government for his own individual use? 1310 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Nori. Well, he has purchased furniture. Senator Townsend. You know that ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Do you have to make an entry of that? Mr. Nori. If it comes within my jurisdiction. Senator Townsend. Well, did it come within your jurisdiction? Mr. Nori. Jt did not. Senator Townsend. How ? Mr. Nori. It did not in one instance. Senator Townsend. In any instance, now, did any item of that kind come within your jurisdiction of which you made the entry? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. And you knew it was false at the time you made it ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Has Friedman ever called your attention to the fact that you were making false entries ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Did he tell you when he wanted your resigna- tion that it was because you were Senator Lane. Let me ask him a question there. Did you ever call attention to the fact that you were making false entries ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Did he say to you that that was one of the reasons he wanted you to leave, because you had not been doing things right ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Townsend. This money you mention here, $500 or $600, is the money that has been paid in by the students for transportation purposes. Was it your business to turn this money over to Friedman ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. That was a proper regulation to do that, was it ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Who kept track of it after it went into his hands ? Mr. Nori. If tickets are to be paid, I paid the tickets. Senator Townsend. Is there any account kept of that on your books after the money goes into his hands ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Townsend. How do you know that he has expended any of that money improperly, then ? Mr. Nori. I do not know. That is up to Mm. I could not say how he used it. Senator Townsend. These receipts that you went over there to get from Mr. Miller — went into his office when Miller was away — did Friedman tell you to go there and get these receipts ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir; intimated. Senator Townsend. There was nobody interested in those receipts except you and Miller, was there ? Mr. Nori. 1 and Miller ? Senator Townsend. Yes; you and Miller. You had given Miller the money and Miller had given you the receipts ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1311 Senator Townsend. Nobody else's name was on those receipts « Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Nobody else was connected with it in any way? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Why was Friedman interested in destroying that ? Mr. Nori. Well, I suppose — I imagined it was for that lump sum of $500 or $600. Senator Townsend. But that had passed into your hands ? Mr. Nori. Yes; but that was handed over to him. Senator Townsend. Did you get any receipt from Friedman when you handed it to him ? Mr. Nori. No, sir; he wanted the statement, and I just gave him the statement and the money. Senator Townsend. Did you not ever take a receipt from Friedman when you turned money over to him ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Townsend. How were you going to protect yourself if you were receiving large sums of money down there and took no receipt for it from anybody? Mr. Nori. I went only on the supposition that he was my superior, and I could not ask him. Senator Townsend. Did you give a bond ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Miller insisted on taking your receipt, did he not? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Townsend. When he paid you money, did you not receipt to Miller? Mr. Nori. Sometimes. Senator Townsend. Those are the receipts you went over there to to get to destroy ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Do you mean to say that Miller ever received any money from you or ever paid any money to you that he did not take any receipt for ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. What money ? Mr. Nori. This particular money — individual Indian money for transportation. Senator Townsend. That was first paid to Miller ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. And then turned over to you without any receipt ? Mr. Nori. Sometimes. Senator Townsend. And you turned it over to Friedman without any receipt ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. How was it possible to check up what money you received at that institution ? Mr. Nori. Well, I do not know— pretty hard, I guess. It a man would not take my receipt, he must have a record of his own. 1312 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOi-. Senator Townsend. Did you try to destroy anything but receipts? Mr. Nori. Nothing but receipts. Senator Townsend. You did not try to find his book record or anything of that kind and destroy that? Mr. Noel No, sir. Senator Townsend. And Friedman told you to do that? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. How long ago was it that he told you to do that? Mr. Nori. Well, it was about three or four days before Mr. Lrnnen was there. Senator Townsend. What did you mean when you started out by saying that he "intimated," when you now say that he told you to do certain things ? Mr. Nori. He had previously spoken about it — every now and then intimated. Senator Townsend. For some time had that been going on ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. He was worried about things, down there ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Were you worried at any time ? Mr. Nori. Certainly. He was so worried that he had me arrested, because he knew Senator Townsend. What did he have you arrested for ? Mr. Nori. Well, I guess he thought maybe I had not destroyed those papers — he thought I might have them in my house; and he found out I had given testimony, and then he had me arrested for taking papers. Senator Townsend. What papers? Mr. Nori. These specific papers we are talking about. Senator Townsend. When did he have you arrested? Mr. Nori. The day after I gave my testimony. Senator Townsend. To whom ? Mr. Nori. To Mr. Linnen — had me arrested and placed in jail, and then had a search warrant issued to search my house for those papers. Senator Townsend. He thought you had not destroyed them, maybe ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. He took a whole lot of my personal papers. I presume he will use that; I do not know. Senator Townsend. What do you think he can use against you ? Mr. Nori. It is hard to tell; he is liable to use anything. Senator Townsend. Have you something there that you would not like to have used against you ? Mr. Nori. Nothing at all; he can use whatever he wants. The Chairman. Did he know when he had you arrested that you had already destroyed these papers? Mr. Nori. I do not think he did, because he would not have had me arrested and tried to get those papers. Senator Townsend. If he asked you to destroy those papers, what do you' suppose he wanted you arrested for in order to get them ? Mr. Nori. He thought maybe I did not destroy them. Senator Lane. That would be bringing the evidence to the light, would it not ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1313 Mr. Nori. Yes. ■^j- ^Townsend. He wanted those papers to convict himself with, did he? Mr. Noei. I do not know. Senator Townsend. You say he wanted them destroyed because they were damaging to him. Now, be arrested you and had a search warrant issued for the purpose of finding those papers? The Chairman. That was not, Senator Townsend, until after he had already given his testimony to Linnen. Senator Townsend. I recognize that. The Chairman. That is argumentative, of course. Senator Townsend. Yes; that is argumentative, but what occurs to me is that he must not have known you were going to get the papers and destroy them ? Mr. Nori. He knew it all right. The Chairman. He had you arrested before a justice of the peace, did he not ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. He did not call it to the attention of the bureau or the Department of Justice; he did not call you into Federal court, but had you arrested before a justice of the peace in Carlisle? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Had you already told him that you had destroyed these papers ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. He must have filed a charge against him in order to have had him arrested. Has this case been settled in court ? Mr. Nori. I have a hearing to-morrow at 10 o'clock. Senator Lane. Are you out under bond ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How much ? Mr. Nori. $1,000. Senator Lane. What is the charge ? Mr. Nori. I can not remember. I think for abstracting papers and embezzlement. The Chairman. Mr. Nori, have the traveling expenses of pupils who had already paid transportation been vouchered against the Government and the money drawn from the Treasury when the money had already been paid by the pupil? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. It had been paid by the pupil himself ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. As to the traveling expenses of Mr. Friedman him- self, that you have referred to, that was vouchered against the Gov- ernment in his accounts, as superintendent, when, as a matter of fact, he had traveled on mileage paid for out of the athletic fund ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. When you prepared these vouchers, did you know they were false ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. At whose direction did you prepare them ? Mr. Nori. At the direction of Supt. Friedman. 35601— pt 11—14 23 1314 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Senator Lane. Senator Robinson, right in there I want to ask him this: You knew that he had been making false vouchers, putting in double charges for his traveling expenses ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How long have you known that ? Mr. Nori. Well, ever since 1908, along there. Senator Lane. This commission was over there about six or eight weeks ago, and you were a witness before the commission ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Lane. You were not called ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. The Chairman. No; he was not. Senator Lane. All right. The Chairman. I believe that is all, unless there are further ques- tions by members of the commission. Representative Stephens. Who was the first one that you told that you had destroyed these vouchers that you had got from Mil- ler's office ? Mr. Nori. I told Friedman. Representative Stephens. Was that the time you went for the second lot of vouchers ? Mr. Nori. That was the last time. Representative Stephens. You did not tell him that you had gone there first and got some of them and destroyed them ? Mr. Nori. I did not tell him until I finally destroyed them. Representative Stephens. Until you finally destroyed them ? Mr. Nori. Yes. Representative Stephens. Then when was it that you went back after the second lot of vouchers, and why did you go back after the second lot ? Mr. Nori. I went back because I thought — he had said I would be responsible for them, and I went back again in the evening. Representative Stephens. Who told you that you would be re- sponsible ? Mr. Nori. Dr. Friedman. Representative Stephens. Did he know at the time when he told you that you would be responsible that you had already got some of them and burned them ? Mr. Nori. No; I had not destroyed them then. Representative Stephens. You had not destroyed them, but still had them in your possession ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Did you tell him that you had them? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. That you had gone to the office and got them? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. But that you had not got the last lot of vouchers ? Mr. Nori. Receipts. Representative Stephens. Receipts ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. And those are the ones that he wanted you to go back after ? CAELISLB INDIAN SCHOOL. 1315 Mr. Nori. He wanted me to go for those receipts, I believe, of 1908, 1909, and 1910. Representative Stephens. Did you do it? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Then when you came back with these, what did you do with them ? Did you burn them ? Mr. Nori. I burned all of them; yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Those and the first ones you brought also, at the same time ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Then when did you tell him that you had burned them ? Mr. Nori. I think it was the next day after I burned them. Representative Stephens. What did he say about it? Mr. Nori. He did not say anything. He said, "All right." That was all. Senator Townsend. Will you let me ask a question right there? Representative Stephens. Certainly. Senator Townsend. These receipts you destroyed were receipts for money that you paid to Miller ? Mr. Nori. No; they were receipts that I had given to Miller. Senator Townsend. For money that Miller had paid to you? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. You got no receipt from Friedman for this $500 ? Mr. Nori. No, sir; I just turned it over to him. Representative Stephens. What entry did you make on your books with reference to that ? Mr. Nori. I did not make no entry, because we did not keep no special book for it. Representative Stephens. You did not keep any special book? Mr. Nori. We just kept it in an envelope, with a statement. Representative Stephens. You turned over the statement, envel- ope, and money and all to him ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. In the presence of anyone? Mr. Nori. No, sir; everything was done between him and I per- sonally. Representative Stephens. And no one else except you and Mr. Friedman knew of that transaction ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Representative Stephens. Why did Friedman want you to leave the school? You said that he wanted you to resign, transfer, or something. Mr. Nori. I believe it was just on that — he might want Senator Lane. I want to ask you a question. Representative Stephens. You do not know, then? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Senator Lane. Did Mr. Miller discover the absence of those papers or how did the thing happen to get out ? Mr. Nori. Why, I believe the inspector discovered that. Representative Stephens. You spoke about Friedman when he first spoke to you about fixing up the accounts and said he had 1316 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. received a letter of instructions from Abbott. Did you see that letter ? Mr. Xori. No, sir. Representative Stephens. How did you know about that? Why do you say that there was a letter? Mr. Nori. Because I heard his naive in connection with it. Representative Stephens. In connection with what? Mr. Nori. To the effect that he had Representative Stephens. How ? Mr. Nori. He had a letter — to the effect that he had received a letter from Mr. Abbott. Representative Stephens. Who was Mr. Friedman telling that? Mr. Nori. I do not recall. I believe it was just in a conversation I overheard. Representative Stephens. Oh, you overheard it '. Mr. Nori. Yes. Representative Stephens. Who was he talking to ? Mr. Nori. I believe he was talking to Warner, the athletic man. Representative Stephens. Who ? Mr. Nori. I believe he was talking to Warner, the athletic man; I think so ; I am not certain. Representative Stephens. Where were you and where was Warner and Friedman when you overheard that ? Mr. Nori. They were in their office, when I wa< in my own office adjoining. Representative Stephens. Was there a door open between you ? Mr. Nori. Yes. Representative Stephens. State that conversation, as near as you can. Mr. Nori. Well, they were talking about what was best to do — I think, about the matter, and if I can recall, I heard him say some- thing about a letter from Abbott, advising or telling him — I could not say the word — and then I heard the words "athletic account" and "fixing up" — that word I heard — those are the words that I heard. Representative Stephens. Was that before or after he had given you instructions to fix up your account — Friedman had given you instructions ? . Mr. Nori. That was before. Representative Stephens. How long after that did he give you those instructions about your books ? Mr. Nori. He spoke to me, I guess, about two or three days after- wards, then. That is when it started. Representative Stephens. That started the whole matter of fixing the books ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. How many conversations did you over- hear about that, a,bout this investigation and about Abbott requir- ing it? H Mr. Nori. That is only the one time. Representative Carter. Mr. Nori, were there vouchers destroyed besides the receipts that passed between you and Miller ? Mr. Nori. Vouchers ? No, sir. CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1317 Representative Carter. No other vouchers were destroyed except the receipts ? Mr. Nori. Except receipts. Representative Carter. That passed between you and Miller ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Representative Carter. There were no vouchers destroyed that had Friedman's name to them ? Mr. Nori. No vouchers that had his first name were destroyed — none whatever; just the receipts. Representative Carter. First you had destroyed the receipts from 1908 to 1910? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. On your first trip, you secured those ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Then, on the second trip you secured those running after 1910 ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. When did Mr. Friedman come to Carlisle ? Mr. Nori. April, 1908. Representative Carter. Can you tell us just about the time that you heard of this letter Abbott had written — about the date ? Mr. Nori. I did not see the letter, Mr. Carter. Representative Carter. I want to know about the time you over- heard a conversation about a letter coming from Abbott to Friedman. Mr. Nori. The letter from the office came first, and they were talking about it —discussing it, and I think the letter came subse- quently, though just how long after, I do not know. Representative Carter. What letter was it came from the office ? Mr. Nori. Relative to the athletic fund. Representative Carter. From what office ? Mr. Nori. From the Indian Affairs. Representative Carter. From the Commissioner of Indian Affairs ? Mr. Nori. Yes. Representative Carter. What was the contents of that letter 1 Mr. Nori. I could not just exactly say, because Mr. Friedman kept that, and I believe gave it to Warner for an answer, and I believe I only saw it one time, but I did not read it. Representative Carter. But it was asking for an accounting of the athletic funds ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Do you know the date of that letter ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Representative Carter. Do you know anything about the date or about the time? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Representative Carter. Was it in February ? Mr. Nori. I could not say. Representative Carter. Was it before Christmas ? Mr. Nori. I am not positive— I can not— I know the circum- Representative Carter. How long after that letter came before you heard Abbott's letter mentioned ? Mr. Nori. Oh, a week or three or four days, maybe. 1318 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Representative Carter. That was before Linnen came to Carlisle, when you first heard it ( Mr. Nori. Yes, sir; quite awhile. Representative Carter. State specifically, as you never have, Mr. Nori, what it was that was said about Abbott's letter and who said it — was it Warner or Mr. Friedman who spoke of it? Mr. Nori. Mr. Friedman, I believe, was talking. Representative Carter. What did he say about the letter? Mr. Nori. As I say, it is just a mere chance remark that I heard; that is all, his name was mentioned. Representative Carter. I know you said that. I want to know what he said. You ought to know what the remark was, if you heard it, Mr. Nori. Mr. Nori. You see, I was not close enough to hear it. Representative Carter. How did you know that the Abbott let- ter was relative to Mr. Nori. What is that? Representative Carter. How did you know that the Abbott letter was relative to the athletic account, then ? Mr. Nori. 1 heard him say — he said — what 1 could hear — just slightly that it was a letter directing him to look into his athletic account. Representative Carter. Was that while Abbott was Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs or since ? Mr. Nori. I believe it was after he left. I do not know when he left, but Representative Carter. Do you know about what date you destroyed these papers ? Mr. Nori. No, sir; I can only go by the time. Mr. Linnen has been either three or four days — the first one, and then Representative Carter. When was the first time Friedman spoke to you about destroying these papers ? Mr. Nori. It was soon after the letter from the office regarding the athletic account. Representative Carter. Before Linnen came there? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. What did he say? Just see if you can not tax your mind and tell us what he said, Mr. Nori. Mr. Nori. He said, "About the accounts, Nori" — as near as I can recall. "Well," I said, "of course, you know how they are." I said, "They are not altogether right in a whole lot of instances." "Well, had you not better look into it and try to fix them up as far as possible." That, maybe, would be the end of the conversation, and maybe a day or two again the subject would be brought up, just casually, and he would say, ' ' Well, how about those accounts ? Have you done anything?" I says, "We can not do anything, because they are all in the auditor's office," and that is all that I could tell him. Representative Carter. These receipts that passed between Mil- ler and you were not in the auditor's office, were they ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Representative Carter. Those are the only things you say you destroyed ? Mr. Nori. That is all. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1319 Representative Carter. Then, why did you tell him that nothing could be done; that they were all in the auditor's office? Mr. Nori. There was not anything that he could do with his official accounts. Representative Carter. What did you understand him to mean Nori? Did you understand him to mean that he wanted you to destroy vouchers, or that he wanted you to make false entries? What did you understand by "fixing." Did he not make any expla- nation at all ? Mr. Nori. He just told me, from what I can recollect, he wanted me to destroy any evidence. Eepresentative Carter. Did he tell you that he wanted you to destroy "any evidence?" Mr. Nori. Sir ? Representative Carter. Did he tell you that he wanted you to destroy any evidence ? Mr. Nori. No, sir; he just told me he wanted me to destroy any papers that would complicate — I mean that would involve these things. Representative Carter. He told you to destroy any papers that would involve you or him ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Which one of you — involve you or involve him — which one did he say ? Mr. Nori. I suppose him. He said I would be liable as well as him. Representative Carter. Oh, he did? He said it would involve both of you ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. How many times did he tell you that, Nori? Mr. Nori. Well, two or three times, I think. Representative Carter. How many times did he tell you before went to get the papers ? Mr. Nori. He did not tell me but once — except — about once, I guess; and after that Representative Carter. You went and got the papers as soon as he told you ? Mr. Nori. Not exactly. Representative Carter. Did you not tell me that he told you away back there when Abbott wrote this letter that you had better do something about it ? Mr. Nori. Oh, yes, he told me — he intimated lots of times, but then he did not tell me directly. Representative Carter. When was the first time he told you directly to get the papers and to destroy them ? Mr. Nori. It was after Linnen had been there. Representative Carter. Did you get the papers before he toldyoM to do it, directly ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Representative Carter. You did not get them until he had instructed you to get them and destroy them ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. 1320 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Representative Carter. When did Friedman first have a conver sation with you about making these false entries in the book, and about carrying this matter along, as you did carry it ? Mr. Nori. I guess it was the first year that he came, pretty nearly. Representative Carter. How long after he came there was it, Nori ? Mr. Nori. About six months, or so. Representative Carter. What did he say ? Mr. Nori. He said — he would say "tickets for pupils." Now, he had an understanding with them, if they would interest themselves with the schools — "I have an understanding with them. We will pay their money and charge their tichets to the Government and hold them until they return with whatever expense, or if they have inter- ested themselves." Representative Carter. Interest themselves in getting scholars to come to school 1 Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. And what did he tell you and what kind of an entry did he tell you to make about it ? What did he tell you to do about it ? Mr. Nori. We just merely — we just merely kept the money in an envelope, and whenever the boys Representative Carter. I am not asking you what you did. I am asking you what he told you to do. How did he tell you to handle it ? Mr. Nori. I would present these bills to him and show him how they were marked, and then he would say, "Now, this boy will be" — he would have an understanding with him to interest himself for the school — "charge his ticket — let the Government pay it." Representative Carter. What was that ticket for — for the boy's return home ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You already had the money from the boy yourself to pay it ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Did you begin handling this thing this way just as soon as he told you ito ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. How long had you been in the service then f Mr. Nori. I went there in 1900. Representative Carter. You had been there eight years ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Had it ever been handled that way before, prior to the time Mr. Freidman came there ? Mr. Nori. I have no knowledge of it. Representative Carter. Were you acting then in the capacity of chief clerk, as you are now ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. How long had you been acting in that capacity ? Mr. Nori. One year before. Representative Carter. Had any such thing occurred prior to that time s Mr. Nori. There was some cases like that, but that was settled by Mercer. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1321 Representative Carter". Just the same as Friedman did ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Did you find them settling them that way as chief clerk ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Did it not occur to you that it was wrong ? Mr. Nori. It was customary, I guess; that is all I know. Representative Carter. What degree of Indian blood have you, Nori ? Mr. Nori. Full-blood. Representative Carter. Your mother and father were both full- bloods ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. Could you speak English when you first went to the school ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Representative Carter. Where were you educated? Mr. Nori. At Carlisle Indian School, and Dickinson for a little while. Representative Carter. Your whole experience has been at Carlisle, has it? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. And you know nothing of white men's ways and white men's business except what you learned at Carlisle ? Mr. Nori. That is all. Representative Carter. As chief clerk, did you consider it your duty to do whatever your superiors asked you to do ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir; I was there to follow instructions. Representative Carter. Would you consider it your duty to follow instructions whether you were violating the law or not? Mr. Nori. Well, I— I tried to work against what I thought it was, but I did not think- if my superior officer would pass them- Representative Carter. Why did you not complain about these thing before now, Nori? Just tell us. You have a reason, why did you not? Just tell the committee frankly why it was. Mr. Nori. I would be blamed for it; that is all I know. I did not want to complain, because I would be blamed for irregularity, because I believed that Friedman would throw the responsitility on me in every way, shape, and form. Representative Carter. What did you consider would have hap- pened if you had made a complaint? What did you think would be the result ? Did you ever study about that ? Mr. Nori. Why, I suppose I would suffer the penalty of, whatever it was. The Chairman. Miller was a bonded officer, was he? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And Friedman was the disbursing officer? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And they were chargeable with the correct keep- ing and paying out of those funds ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I want to find out, now, just what happened when you first told some one besides Friedman about having destroyed those receipts. Do you know whether or not Linnen went to Mr. 1322 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Miller's < ffiec and got the remaining files there of receipts or not, and did he show them to you and show you where receipts had been torn from the files ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And did he confront you with them and accuse you of having done it? Mr. Noei. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And you then admitted it? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not you got all those receipts that related to cases of individual Indian pupils who had paid their transportation, and in which cases it was still vouchered against the Government? Do you know whether you got them all or not? Mr. Nori. I only got what I could; that is all. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you lacked about .1909.59 of getting all the receipts, as appears from the records still on file in Miller's office, of cases where individual Indian pupils had paid their own transportation in advance, and in which vouchers were made against the Government for their transportation ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Take as an illustration the case of Lafe Allison. Does the Government pay the transportation home of a pupil who has deserted or leaves the school and runs away? Mr. Nori. Hardly possible. The Chairman. That is never done, is it? Mr. Nori. There might be sometimes, but I can not — I do not think generally. The Chairman. Do you remember the case of Lafe Allison? Mr. Nori. No, I do not think I do. The Chairman. Do you know of any cases where pupils had, as a matter of fact, deserted and run away and their transportation was vouchered against the Government, when, as a matter of fact, it was not used by the pupil? Mr. Nori. Yes; there have been cases like that. The Chairman. There have been cases like that? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Can you reach from memory now any of those cases ? Mr. Nori. No; because there are so many of them. The Chairman. A large number of them? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know whet er Lafe Allison was one of those pupils or not ? Mr. Nori. He was one of the chronic ones. The Chairman. What ? Mr. Nori. Chronic ones — might have taken bis name as one. The Chairman. What do you mean by "chronic"? I do not understand just how you use that word. Mr. Nori. If he had been in the habit of running away, his name would be used even if he did not run away. The Chairman. There was a habit there, then, of vouchering for the transportation of pupils who had run away? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1323 The Chairman. Did h" voucher for a pupil who had iuh awav more than once ? Mr. Nori. Sometimes. He may run three or four times. _ The Chairman. What I want to know is, in a case of a pupil who is m the habit of running away, if the administration there has the habit of vouchormg this transportation and making the Government pay it ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And would th'v charge him with running awav when he had not been guilty of it ? " Mr. Nori. Would he charge '( Senator Lane. Would they accuse him of running away more times than he really did and draw vouchers when he did not? Mr. Nori. No. The Chairman. They would not charge him with running away, in that connection ? Representative Carter. They would not charge him with running away when he did run ? The Chairman. Charge him with going home and paving his ex- penses out of the Government fund. How old are you, Nori ? Mr. Nori. Thirty-eight years old. The Chairman. You knew that the joint commission was investi- gating those funds ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You knew that Mr. Linnen was sent there for that purpose ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You knew if he got hold of these records that they would enable him to check up these false accounts ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. If I understand you correctly, it was your idea and purpose to destroy the evidence that would implicate you and the superintendent in making these false accounts, and thus prevent the matter being correctly checked up I Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Has Mr. Friedman ever complained to you that you had kept the money instead of turning it over to him ? Mr. Nori. No; I do not think he did, but I think it was his inten- tion if ever anything should come of this character. Senator Tow t nsend. You are sure you did not keep any of that money ? Mr. Nori. Only as I stated. Senator Lane. He said he kept some. Senator Townsend. Yes. The Chairman. You were not arrested until after you had made your statement to Mr. Linnen and you were arrested the day fol- lowing ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Before a justice of the peace in Carlisle? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Lid Mr. Friedman know that you had made a statement to Mr. Linnen ? Mr. Nori. I do not know. I suppose he thought I did. I suppose he would know 1 would tell what I know about it. 1324 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman-. Do you know whether or not Mr. Friedman, when he had you arrested, knew that you had been in conference with Lin- nen or had made a statement to him? Mr. Nori. I suppose he did. The Chairman. Where did you make your statement to Linnen? Mr. Nori. In the office of Mr. Lipps. The Ciiairmax. Tn the office of the superintendent there at the school ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. You say you got $100 from some of these funds to send your wife west? What funds was the $100 taken from? Mr. Nori. From this transportation of pupils. Representative Stephens. Then you sent your wife the sam> way as had been customary to send the pupils ?_ Mr. Nori. Yes; to interest any prospective students. She went to Seattle and then went to a school in Oregon — -I have forgotten- Sal em, and from Salem down to Riverside. Representative Stephens. What was she doing at all these places — influencing pupils to come to Carlisle ? Mr. Nori. She went honr. Her father wanted her home, and he paid her way, and then her uncle lives in New Mexico, and she went down as far as San Francisco with him. Representative Stephens. Then, how did you get this $100? Her father paid her way, and then you got the $100 out of the Treasury besides ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. You kept the money? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. That is the same thing as many others have done when they sent persons out for the purpose of enlisting pupils — they were trying to avoid the law, were they not? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. The rules and regulations? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. I am anxious to know how that is done. How do they cheat the law by getting pupils to Carlisle, solicit them ? Mr. Nori. When the regulations cam" out that they should not solicit, this, of course, was one form to interest pupils, but there was no direct authority given to anybody. They only asked the people out in the field to do as much soliciting as possible, without going over the regulations. Representative Stephens. Was any amount of money paid to those people who sent students ? Mr. Nori. I can not say; there may have been out of the athletic fund; I could not say as to that. Representative Stephens. Who had charge of the athletic fund? Mr. Nori. Mr. Miller, the gentleman who has charge of the indi- vidual Indian accounts. The Chairman. Who was present when you made your statement to Inspector Linnen ? Mr. Nori. Miss Herrman, the clerk, took down the testimony. The Chairman. Was she a stenographer ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1325 Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In whose employ had she been previously— whose employ was she in ? Mr. Nori. She was in my office. The Chairman. In whose employ ? Mr. Nori. In the United States Government. The Chairman. Under Friedman ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. The Chairman. She had been his stenographer? Mr. Nori. Well, she takes dictation from him. Representative Carter. Was this $100 given to you on account of your wife's visit to the West ? Mr. Nori. What did you say ? Representative Carter. Was this $100 3-ou took out of the fund, was that taken out of the fund for your wife's visit to the West ? Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. To pay her expenses? Mr. Nori. No, sir; such as may be required to interest pupils. • Representative Carter. She went to the West to interest pupils to come to Carlisle; was that the purpose of her mission? Mr. Nori. As others were. Representative Carter. What authority did you have for taking that $100. Who told vou to take it — that you might take it out of the fund ? Mr. Nori. I did not have no specific authority. Representative Carter. Did anybody tell you that you might take it out of the fund ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Representative Carter. Did you tell anybody that you had taken it ? Mr. Nori. It was in the statement I gave to Friedman. Representative Carter. Friedman did not authorize you to take that out for your wife ? Mr. Nori. No, sir. Representative Carter. ■ Did he know that you took it out for your wife? Mr. Nori. He had a statement, I think. Representative Carter. Did he make any objection to it? Mr. Nori. No, sir. TESTIMONY OF AUGUST KEUSIEE, QUAETEEMASTEE. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. Your name is August Kensler ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is your employment ? Mr. Kensler. Quartermaster. The Chairman. At Carlisle Indian School ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have you been so employed there ? Mr. Kensler. I have been there since the 1st of July, 1882 — storekeeper and quartermaster. The Chairman. What is your age « Mr. Kensler. Seventy. The Chairman. How long have you been in the Indian Service ? 1326 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Kensler. Since the 1st of July, 1SS2. The Chairman". You have charge of the good-; und supplies . Mr. Kknsler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And what else? Mr. Kensler. And shops. The Chairman. Did you have charge of the soles of Government prop -rty < Mr. Kexsler. Government property; yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know how the proceeds of the sales of Government property "have been accounted since you have been there ? Mr.' Kexsler. They have be<-n all turned in to the chief clerk or whoever it is, you know, with the exception of a lot of furniture, which was bought by Mr. Friedman and paid for out of the money received from sales of rags and old iron. The Ciiairmax. What fund did that money belong to ? Mr. Kenslee. The "class 1" fund. The Chairman. And that should have gone into 'the United States , Treasury ? Mr. Kenslee. Yes. The Chairman. You say the most of that furniture was paid for out of "class 1 " fund? Mr. Kensler. $270. The Chairman. From whom was that furniture purchased? Mr. Kensler. From the different parties in town. The Chairman. Various furniture dealers? Mr. Kensler. Yes. The Chairman. Do you know their names, some of them ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Give their names. If you have a statement of the furniture I would like to have it. Mr. Kensler. Here it is, sir. (Handing papers to the chairman.) The Chairman. The witness here presents what purports to be an itemized list of the furniture, with what purports to be receipts for the bills and attaches the same to his testimony as a part thereof. *"\ (The itemized statement and attached receipted bills are as fol- lows:) Take up on Mr. Friedman property reference, supplementary, as follows: 1 extension table] 7 chairs, dining. J §46. 00 1 chair, arm. . . J 1 chair, upholstered 10. 00 1 chair, upholstered, rocker 8. 50 1 chair, oak, rocker 4. 75 1 parlor suite, 3 pieces 39. 00 2 chairs, parlor 17. 00 1 Turkish leather rocker 35. 00 1 oak frame rocker 15. 00 1 arm chair, rocker '. ' 6. 00 1 davenport 37. 50 1 rocker 2. 75 1 table 3. 00 3 tables, porch 12. 75 3 rockers, porch 8. 25 1 cabinet 4. 00 1 refrigerator 29. 50 Total 270.00 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1327 , ,. _, . . o , , Carlisle, Pa., May 26, 1908. Indian 1 raining School, by Moses Friedman, superintendent, to H. L. Shapley, Dr. To parlor suite, three pieces ,,„ n „ To upholstered green chair in no To rocker, green upholstered akn Tooakrocker °-™ 4. 75 Total 62.25 Mr. Friedman: Please examine if this is 0. K. Respectfully, Paid. H.L. Shapley. June 1, 1908. A. Kemsler. Carlisle, Pa., June 1, 1908. Carlisle Industrial School, Moses Friedman, bought of M. A. Sierer. Dining-room suite, consisting of — 1 pedestal extension tablel 7 leather-seat diners 1 leather-seat, arm June 10. Received payment in full. M. A. Sierer. Carlisle, Pa., November 19, 1908. Superintendent M. Friedman, bought of M. A. Sierer. 2 roman chairs _ $y[ 1 Turkish leather rocker 35 1 oak-frame leather rocker 15 1 reed armchair 6 Total "73 December 5. Paid in full. M. A. Sierer. Carlisle, Pa., February 20, 1909. Carlisle Indian Industrial School, bought of M. A. Sierer. 1 leather upholstered davenport $37. 50 Received payment. M. A. Sierer. Per Jacobs. Carlisle, Pa., October 12, 1909. Mr. M. Friedman, bought of M. A. Sierer. August 16, 1909: 3 porch tables, at $4.25 $12. 75 August 27: 1 porch rocker 3. 25 1 porch rocker 3. 50 1 porch rocker 1. 50 1 cabinet, special 4. 00 Total 25.00 Received payment. M. A. Sierer, Pr. Jacobs. Carlisle, Pa., March 29, 1909. Mr. Moses Friedman, bought of M. A. Sierer. 1 rattan rocker $2. 75 In residence of Mr. Friedman, table 3. 00 Total 5 - 75 Received payment. M. A. Sierer, Pr. J. // 1328 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Carlisle, Pa., July 15, 1910. Mr. August Kinsler, bought of G. W. Rinesmith's Sons. July 11, 1 refrigerator ' sjL>9 - 50 Sold to Mr. Friedman. Paid. G. W. Rinesmith's Sons. July 15, 1910. The Chairman. The total amount of this furniture appears to be $270. Who paid for the furniture? Mr. Kenslei:. I paid for the furniture. The Chairman. How did you come to do that? Mr. Kensler. When I wanted to turn in money at the office he says, "Here is some bills here. I have been buying some furniture here'; there is very little furniture in the house." "Well," I says, "I don't know about that." "Oh," ho says, "that will be all right. When I leave that furniture will remain here just the same. There will be no trouble about it." The Chairman. Who said that? Mr. Kensler. Mr. Friedman, the superintendent. The Chairman. When you wanted to turn the money in, Superin- tendent Friedman presented these bills? Mr. Kexslkr. Presented some of the bills; yes. The Chairman. Some of the bills ? Mr. Kensler. Yes; you know they were not all bought at one time. The Chairman. And you objected to paying them, or you ques- tioned it? Mr. Kensler. Questioned it; that is the only thing I did. Well, it was all right, he says. I knew he had no furniture except one room furniture, for that large house. I did not know hardly what to say to him. I says, "I don't know about that." "Oh," he says, "that will be all right. When I leave that furniture will remain right here." The Chairman. What accounting was made of that $270 paid for Mr. Friedman's furniture in the way you have stated ? Mr. Kensler. What accounting? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Kensler. No accounting at all, except what bills you have. The Chairman. It was never entered upon the books at the school ? Mr. Kensler. No, sir. The Chairman. Nor paid into the Treasury of the United States? Mr. Kensler. No, sir. The Chairman. But was paid out of these bills and no account kept of it? Mr. Kensler. No account except what you have there. Senator Lane. That would complicate the accounting of your receipts ? You made an accounting of your receipts to the Govern- ment of these moneys which were expended for this ? Mr. Kensler. No, sir; it would not complicate anything, because the money was not turned in, you see. The Chairman. How were these bills paid? Mr. Kensler. By cash. The Chairman. Receipts were taken and you attached them ? Mr. Kensler. Yes. CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1329 The Chairman. Did you pay these bills with your own hand and take the receipts ? Mr. Kensler. I paid these bills myself with my own hand. The Chairman. Did you take up the property thus bought on the Government property returns ? Mr. Kensler. You mean this here ? The Chairman. Yes. That was taken up by the clerk, as I under- stand, on the last property return Mr. Friedman made ? Mr. Kensler. Yes. The Chairman. When? Mr. Kensler. That was about a month or so ago. The Chairman. Since the joint commission was over there? Mr. Kensler. I think it is; yes, sir. I am pretty sure. The Chairman. I see one bill here, receipted, under date of May 26, 1908, for $62.25 from H. L. Shapley, dealer in furniture and bedding; another receipt for $46, under date of June 12, 1908, from M. A. Sierer; a second for $73 under date of November 19, 1908, from the same person; a third from Sierer under date of February 20, 1909, for $37.50 ; a fourth from the same dealer under date of October 12, 1909, for $25; a fifth under date of March 29, 1909, for $5.75; and another bill for $29.50, receipted by G. W. Kinesmith's Sons, dealers in stoves, ranges, and furnaces, under date of July 15, 1910. Do these bills and receipts correctly represent the dates upon which they were paid ? Mr. Kensler. On which they were paid ; yes, sir. The Chairman. These items were never taken up on the Govern- ment property return until about a month ago ? Mr. Kensler. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you know how they came to be taken up then ? At whose instance were they put on the property returns of the Government ? Mr. Kensler. Why, Mr. Friedman then talked about going away, and I sent word up. I said that this property must be taken up now. Then he directed that it be taken up. The Chairman. That was done at your instance ? The Chairman. Why was it not taken up at the time or about the time of the transactions ? Mr. Kensler. It should have been, if the money had been taken up, which it ought to have been. Otherwise I don't see how it would work out very well. It did look funny to me too, I assure you. That has worried me more than enough. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you knew that the transac- tion was improper, Mr. Kensler ? Mr. Kensler. I did, sir; I felt it all the time, that it ought to be done right at first. . , The Chairman. Of course, you had no authority, and there was no authority, to expend that money for any purpose? Mr. Kensler. No . To verify my statement, I leave it to this man here [indicating Mr. Nori]. I said some time shortly after that, 1 says, "I am paying for some furniture for Mr. Friedman; I don t like that." Didn't I? (No response.) 35601— pt 11—14 24 1330 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. You may just make your own statement, you know. Now, do you remember another transaction relating to the proceeds of the sale of some bags ? I believe they were cement bags. Mr. Kenslee. Yes, sir; I do. The Chairman. Do you know about when that transaction occurred ? Mr. Kensler. Well, that was bags that we had from Bixler & Sons, and I spoke to him again about that. "Well," he says, "it is very often you need things we haven't got here in stock, and it is a mightynice thing to have it so you can just send on for it, such as locks, etc., which we needed considerable of." I said, "All right, then, if that is your orders" The Chairman. Do you know the amount of those purchases ? Mr. Kensler. I don't know the exact amount. The Chairman. Have you the receipts for them ? Mr. Kensler. No; I have not, because the balance of it also was taken up. It was $176 taken up on the last account current. The Chairman. On the property accounting to the Government? Mr. Kensler. On the account current to the Government. The Chairman. When did the transaction actually occur ? When was the money actually expended and the property bought ? Mr. Kensler. You mean the sacks ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Kensler. That was from time to time; we were dealing with those people in purchasing cement. The Chairman. Give me about the years. Mr. Kensler. I could not very well say that; but anyway it is in the last three years. The Chairman. Within the last three years ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. You would save up these moneys, and then use them to purchase supplies ? Mr. Kensler. No ; I never took the money out of the firm's hands; never. They checked up against it. I sent a regular request down on our request blanks and checked on that blank to credit account. The Chairman. What would you purchase ? Mr. Kensler. Locks or whatever they needed around the shops. Senator Lane. Something that was used there on the premises for the benefit of the school ? Mr. Kensler. Yes. The Chairman. That was property, "Class," just the same as the other ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And should have gone into the Treasury of the United States. But, if I understand you correctly, at the direction of the superintendent it was used for the purchase of articles there at the school ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What was the total amount of it, if you remember ? Mr. Kensler. The total amount of the purchases ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Kensler. I should think between $40 and $50. The Chairman. What was the total amount of sales of the sacks ? CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1331 Mr. Kensler. Well, the balance of the money received for the sacks was $176. The Chairman. What was done with that ? Mr. Kensler. It was turned into the Treasury, I presume. I sent the check up, anyway. The Chairman. When? Mr. Kensler. That is on the last account current. The Chairman. About when was it ? Mr. Kensler. Oh, it is about the 15th of February. The Chairman. Of this year ? Mr. Kensler. Yes. The Chairman. Since the joint commission and Mr. Linnen were over there ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know how that came to be done ? Mr. Kensler. Well, I wanted to do that long ago but he put it off all the time, and he says, "There is no hurry about it." The Chairman. Who had that balance of $170 ? Mr. Kensler. The firm. The Chairman. What firm ? Mr. Kensler. Bixler & Sons. We never handled a dollar of it. The Chairman. They are in Carlisle ? Mr. Kensler. In Carlisle, yes. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, the proceeds of those sacks, amounting to $220 or $225, never came into your hands at all? Mr. Kensler. No, sir. The Chairman. But was retained there in the hands of a local dealer in Carlisle ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And part of it used for the purchase of tools and supplies there at the school, and the remainder kept until since the investigation began, and then was turned into the Treasury ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The whole sum was not turned into the Treasury, I assume; or was it? Do you know what amount was turned into the Treasury on account of the proceeds of those sacks ? Mr. Kensler. $176, I think. The Chairman. By whom? Mr. Kensler. By the firm; I sent the check up. The Chairman. To the Treasury ? Mr. Kensler. No ; to Mr. Friedman. The Chairman. Was the check payable to Mr. Friedman? Mr. Kensler. Yes; the superintendent. The Chairman. Did you see the check yourself ? Mr. Kensler. No ; I did not. The Chairman. How do you know that was done, then ! Mr. Kensler. That I could not say now. The Chairman. It is not within your personal knowledge J Mr. Kensler. No, sir; I didn't handle any cash payments. The Chairman. Do you know of any other property that was dis- posed of there, Mr. Kensler, the proceeds of which should have gone into the Treasury that was not paid into the Ireasury ( Mr. Kensler. No, sir. 1332 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The Chairman. Can you state whether or not there were any other funds of that kind * Mr. Kensler. None but was turned in. The Chairman. Does anyone else want to ask any questions ? Senator Townsend. This furniture that was bought for him, is that in the house ? Mr. Kensler. It is in the house yet; yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Is it all there ? Mr. Kensler. Supposed to be all there, and no doubt it is, too. Senator Townsend. Do you know of any case where Mr. Fried- man himself personally got any advantage of the money? Mr. Kensler. I do not. Senator Townsend. The holding of the money due the Govern- ment in the hands of that firm, was that doing Mr. Friedman any good? Mr. Kensler. Not a bit. Senator Townsend. He was getting nothing out of that? Mr. Kensler. Not a thing. Senator Townsend. What was there wrong about that ? Mr. Kensler. There was this much wrong, as the Chairman says: It should have been turned in right off when the sacks were sold. Senator Townsend. But it was not used by the superintendent. Mr. Kensler. No; not a thing came up to his house. Senator Townsend. Was there any furniture in the house ? Mr. Kensler. When he came there ? Senator Townsend. Yes. Mr. Kensler. No more than one employee's furniture — one room. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, the Government allows a certain amount for the furnishing of those buildings, does it not? And this was in excess of that ? Mr. Kensler. Oh, yes, sir; this was all in excess. The Chairman. You knew, and Mr. Friedman knew, as a matter of fact, that he had no right to divert that money from the Treasury of the United States to buy furniture for his own use ? Mr. Kensler. His reasons, as I am telling you — he intimated he did not have the money to furnish the house, but, he says, "It will be all right." He says, "I will leave every bit of it here." The Chairman. In any event, the Government should have been credited with the property if it was bought for the Government ? Mr. Kensler. I know, but there was this trouble about it. The money should have been turned in first, and then authority asked to expend it. The Chairman. Certainly. Mr. Kensler. And I wanted to have that. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, there never was any intention to account to the Government for either that furniture or the money until this investigation was begun ? Mr. Kensler. Yes; according to his statement, it was the inten- tion, as soon as he left Carlisle. That is what he said to me; that is the excuse he made. "As soon as I am relieved as superintendent" or "When I leave this house, I will leave all that furniture there." The Chairman. Yes; but that is not what I am asking. As a mat- ter of fact, this $270 fund that should have gone into the Treasury, and which no one had a right to touch, would never have been CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1333 accounted for ; the property would have been left there, but it would not have been accounted for unless through fear of exposure ? Well, that is a matter of argument. Senator Lane. The fact is this: In the first place, they had no authority to retain the money at all. It was their duty to turn it into the Treasury. In the second place, they had no authority to buy the furniture without getting the permission of the officials here. They committed two wrongs there. Representative Carter. And in the third place, no accounting was contemplated at all. Senator Lane. No. Senator Townsend. You paid for these goods, didn't you? Mr. Kensler. Yes. Senator Townsend. You paid for them as a Government official ? Mr. Kensler. Yes. Senator Townsend. What kind of entry did you make in your books? Mr. Kensler. I have the receipts there. Senator Townsend. Didn't you make any entry except those receipts ? Mr. Kensler. These I held intact, because, I said, when he leaves, or if I leave before he leaves, I will turn these receipts over to the party that is my successor. Senator Townsend. Did you pay for the goods ? Mr. Kensler. I didn't buj^ it; he bought it. Senator Townsend. You paid for it? Mr. Kensler. I paid for it. Senator Townsend. You paid for the property, and you knew •that it belonged to the Government or else you would not have paid for it? Mr. Kensler. Yes ; that is right. Senator Townsend. That is what I understand. I am not excus- ing the proposition that this money was not properly turned over in the first place, but .1 see the other view. The Chairman. When Mr. Lipps came there after Dr. Friedman was suspended, do you know whether there was a checking up of the Government property ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you assist in doing it? The Chairman. Do you know whether or not there was other property found there which had not theretofore been taken up by the Government which was then taken up on the Government prop- erty list ? Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir; there was quite a lot. The Chairman. How much ? ,,.-,• Mr Kensler. That is partly the fault of mine when it comes down to it. I had no way of taking an inventory for years, being all bv myself. There was some wagons there— two mail carts and a herdic wagon— and a horse. That all came in during Gen Pratt s time. During his time he purchased a great deal of that stun out of the athletic funds, you know— or the "charity fund rather, speaking more plainly. Representative Carter. What was the charity fund? 1334 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Kensler. Oh, quite a charity fund, you know. They used to go around collecting money from citizens outside — that is, in the different cities. Representative Carter. For the support of the school « Mr. Kensler. For the support of the school. Representative Carter. They do not do that any more ? Mr. Kensler. No; that was done away with. (Thereupon, at 12 o'clock m., the joint commission proceeded to the consideration of other business.) Report on the Carlisle Indian School. [By Inspector E. B. Linnen, Feb. 24, 1914.] Department of the Interior, Washington., February 24, 1914. The Secretary of the Interior, Washington, D. C. Dear Sir: In compliance with your instructions, dated January 19, 1914, I pro- ceeded to Carlisle, Pa., and made an investigation of the Carlisle Indian School and all matters in connection therewith. I now have the honor to report as follows: One of my first duties after arrival at Carlisle was to check up the funds books and accounts, viz, the "Athletic funds" and "Individual Indian moneys,' being the funds of the various students and the Government funds from various appropriations, etc. One of my first duties, also, was to visit the dining room, shops, domitories, etc., and acquaint myself with the conditions then existing. I then visited the hospital, schoolroom, and every department, and acquainted myself fully with conditions from personal observation and talking with the heads of the various departments, with the employees, and with the student body. After I had become thoroughly conversant and acquainted with the conditions then existing and in accordance with previous agreement, I conveyed the information briefly to Hon. Joe T. Robinson, chairman of the Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, that I had secured sufficient data and information and had wit- nesses ready to impart the information whenever the joint congressional committee appointed by Congress to investigate Indian affairs chose to come to Carlisle to con- duct their investigation. Subsequently four members of said joint congressional committee came to Carlisle, Pa., and conducted their investigation. These members were: Senator Joe T. Robinson, chairman; Senator Harry Lane; Congressman John H. Stephens; and Congressman Charles D. Carter. Said joint commission remained at Carlisle for a period of two days and took testimony of many witnesses, which testimony is em- braced in volumes 1 and 2, Carlisle Indian School, marked "Hearings before Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs," which volumes contain 692 typewritten pages of testimony of 61 various witnesses. Same are herewith transmitted and marked "Exhibits A and B," to which your attention is respectfully invited, as the same contains valuable testimony of members of the student body appointed to present the grievances of said student body and numerous employees bearing on the condition of said school, the treatment of the stu- dents and employees by the superintendent, and has a direct bearing and imparts information as to lack of discipline, morals, lack of interest and proper management in practically every department of said school, lack of sufficient food for the student body, and shows the disrespect and contempt in which Supt. Friedman is held by the student body, as also by a majority of the employees. Same also shows the cruel and unjust treatment inflicted on certain students, corpo- ral punishment, the placing of students in the comity jail, and the sentencing of some of them in direct violation of the law, and shows such an unsatisfactory condition of affairs to exist at said school as convinced all the members of said joint commission that Supt. Moses Friedman had not been conducting said Carlisle Indian School in a proper manner, and that in the best interests of said school and of the Government service he should be removed. Said joint committee's investigation also convinced them that in the best interest of said school and the Government service, one Claude M. Stauffer, musical director, who inflicted corporal punishment on a young lady student by the name of Julia CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1335 Hardin, 17 years of age, and was thereafter grossly insubordinate to me, should also be removed from the Government service, and that the matron, Miss Anna H Riden- our, should be reprimanded and promptly transferred. This judgment and recom- mendation on the part of said commission has my hearty and unqualified approval These are the recommendations which I here make, and should have made regardless of the investigation of said joint commission. _ I also make other recommendations hereinafter which I believe to be in the best interests of said school, and desire to direct your particular attention to the abuses which have for many years occurred m connection with the athletic fundsof said school and I submit that the evidence herewith transmitted shows that the athletic coach Mr Glenn S. Warner, is not a proper person to longer be associated with said student * ?7 ^ r f a 5°\ 0f hl ? d ° mlnatlon °^er the athletic boys, his foul language and cursins of the athletic boys m the presence of the student body and outsiders who happen to be present on such occasions. His influence at said school is demoralizing, and it is the consensus of opinion of the heads of the industrial departments of said school the principal, and the majority of the teachers that football and athletics have dominated said school; that all other departments have been made to be subservient thereto and that the manner in which athletics have been conducted has been extremely bad for the academic and industrial training of the student body I desire to draw your particular attention to the fact that in practically every depart- ment of said school there has been a lack of proper interest and proper management- that there has been a lack of individual interest in the student bod v for their welfare 1 that there has been no systematic effort made to teach the various trades to the youn^ men; that they were detailed from one shop to another or to the farm or outing and that but a very small per cent of the students detailed in the various shops ever became proficient or learned any trade, because of lack of sufficient length of detail or interest- that there is almost an entire lack of agricultural training, and that the boys have been made to feel that they were being punished when detailed to work on farm, garden, or dairy; that some of the trades have been abandoned which the catalogues of said school advertise. There has been no human side exhibited by the superintendent at said school, and his relations and conduct toward the pupils have been overbearing and very unfriendly and unsympathetic. The students could not go to him with their grievances or receive kindly advice; neither could the girl students go to the matron and receive sympathy or motherly advice. The management of the school appeared to be exceedingly strained and unfriendly toward the student body, who were almost in open rebellion by reason of the treatment received and injustice practiced on some of their members. This strained condition of affairs could not have much longer obtained. An open break and rebellion was imminent upon my arrival at said school. It is sufficient to say in this connection that the members of the student body had held meetings, both the boys and the girls, and that 276 members of the boys had signed a petition request- ing an investigation of said school. This petition was handed over to Congressman Arthur R. Rupley, whose home is at Carlisle, Pa. After my arrival at said school I was called upon by the members of the student body, both young men and young women, requesting permission to hold a meeting of their student body and select therefrom members to present their grievances to me. I believed that in justice to said body it should be allowed, and I granted such permission, with the distinct understanding that the members of said student body to be so selected must represent the majority of the students; that they must state only the truth and the facts, under oath, and matters which are material to the welfare of the student body and the school. Such committees were appointed by the student body and they appeared before the joint congressional committee and gave testimony, to which your attention is respectfully invited. In this connection I desire to say that my observation convinces me that there is a high class of students at said school; that there is the making of many good, true men and women out of the majority of said student body if they be properly handled and their better natures appealed to; that they have a high sense of honor and justice, and can be properly developed and molded with sympathetic, kindly teaching. With respect to the feeling exhibited by the various members of the student body toward Supt. Moses Friedman, it is sufficient to say that the majority of the student body have the utmost contempt and disrespect for him; that they have publicly hooted and jeered him, and have called him "Old Jew," "Christ-killer," "Mose," "Pork dodger," etc., and have thrown old shoes at him and treated him with the utmost disrespect. They state that members of their student body have been unjustly and cruelly treated; have been expelled and sent home from said school simply because they had complained of the food and treatment accorded them at said school 1336 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. and had taken part in gatherings, and had signed petitions requesting an investiga tion, etc. Also they complained of corporal punishment of some of the members of the student body; of the placing of some of the students in the county jail, etc. ATHLETIC FUNDS — MISAPPROPRIATION OF SUCH MONEYS — DOMINATION OF ATHLETICS OVER SAID SCHOOL — GLENN S. WARNER IMPROPER COACH. The athletic funds of said school which' have been improperly handled for many years past is the bone of contention, and has caused more to disrupt, to disorganize, said school and create a bad feeling and a feeling of unrest and injugtice among the student body than all else combined. Everything about said school has been made subservient to football and athletics. It has been considered an honor to be on the first football team and to be connected with the athletics of said school. Young men of the student body who were so for- tunate as to be equipped with great strength, health, and bodily vigor to take part in the strenuous sports were granted every consideration and privilege. They had special quarters in which to reside, a special training table, and a separate cook, and especially good food was provided for them. They were given watches, medals, suits of clothing, overcoats, and money as well. They spent the major portion of their time in training, to the detriment of their education, both academic and indus- trial. If members of the athletic team were in some of the shops, as was frequently the case, they got off at half past 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon and went to train. If they were in the schoolroom, they left the schoolroom for such purpose. During the football season they were away much of the time, and, as a consequence thereof, their education, both academic and industrial, suffered, and when it is taken into consideration that at least 60 or more of the student body were engaged in athletics and constantly in training, it may be noted what effect the same would have on a school of this character. The other young men of said school who were not so fortunate as to be members of these football teams or athletics have felt that they were being unjustly treated and slighted; that these athletic boys had more and better things to eat, more and better clothing to wear, were better housed, and favored in every way, which created a spirit of jealousy, dissatisfaction, and unrest. The receipts from games for said athletic funds from the year 1907 to 1913 were: During the year — 1907 - $58, 032. 30 1908 32, 175. 05 1909 30, 619. 94 1910 19, 374. 36 1911 23, 990. 47 1912 33, 275. 88 1913 26, 321. 83 For your information I inclose herewith an itemized statement showing the receipts from the various games in said athletic fund for the years 1907 to 1913, inclusive, which I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit C." I have prepared a list comprising 23 typewritten pages, single spaced, of checks showing payments made out of this athletic fund from February 9, 1907, to date, to which your special attention is invited. This list of checks shows hundreds of pay- ments made to various football players, many payments made to ministers, many payments made to Government employees who were receiving Government salaries, payments made to newspaper correspondents, payments made to attorneys, press- clipping bureaus; insurance; hotel bills and club dues at the mess for visiting per- sons; moneys paid to jewelers, clothing men, etc., for football players; $580 worth of mileage books for Supt. Moses Friedman; numerous hotel bills and expense trips for Supt. Moses Friedman, including theater tickets, etc., amounting to many hun- dreds of dollars; New York Times and other daily newspapers for Supt. Friedman; expenses of Supt. Moses Friedman to Washington and elsewhere, when he also charged up the Government with his expenses; moneys paid to chief of police of Carlisle and to the sheriff and detectives for arrests of pupils; Mary B. Friedman, wife of Supt. Moses Friedman, expenses, entertainment of guests, $102.70; pay of musicians, etc. These checks so listed are only a few of the checks drawn during said period and are simply noted to show questionable payments made and payments made to foot- ball players, and show that an effort was being made to subsidize the public press through these newspaper correspondents who have been paid many hundreds of CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1337 dollars out of this athletic fund and have been supplied with cameras out of said fund; that ministers have been paid; attorneys have been paid (some of whom have appeared at the Indian Office in Washington recently in behalf of Supt. Moses Friedman); and these ministers and persons who were so paid out of said athletic funds were the persons who appeared before the joint congressional committee to give testimony in behalf of Mr. Friedman. Check No. 508, in the sum of $3,667.63, and check No. 1103, in the sum of $4,283, were checks to pay cash to football players, to say nothing of hundreds of other checks drawn for a like purpose. One Hugh Miller, newspaper correspondent, who sends out Associated Press dis- patches and who is connected with the Carlisle Evening Herald; and also one .T. L. Martin, a newspaper correspondent, were paid hundreds of dollars out of said athletic funds for sending favorable reports about Supt. Moses Friedman, the school, and the football team, when they were being paid by the Associated Press for such work. Attorney John M. Ray, of Carlisle, was paid $100 a year, ostensibly to audit the ath- letic accounts; and Attorney John Wetzen, of Carlisle, received attorney's fees — for what purpose nobody appears to know — but he is now one of the active defenders of Supt. Friedman and has recently made a trip to Washington in his behalf, to see the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs. The Springfield Canning Co. received various large checks for canned goods. This is a company in which Coach Warner is interested. Note the extravagant expense bills paid to Glenn S. Warner, amounting in some instances to over -111,500 for a single trip. Note the large and numerous railway transportation bills, amounting to many thousands of dollars (which include not only railroad transportetion for football players but large amounts for Pullman, etc.). While the expenses of the football members were very properly paid out of such funds, hundreds of pupils, students of the Carlisle School, spent annually thousands of dollars, which they could ill afford, payiug for railway tickets, hotel bills, and other expenses to see the games which were played anywhere in the vicinity of Carlisle. The money used by these pupils for such pur- poses was generally furnished to them by their parents, or were moneys paid them as annuity payments or from the sale of allotments, etc. Attention is called to the fact that in both of said annual salary payments for pro- fessional football the name of James Thorpe is included. Glenn S. Warner, athletic coach, has been receiving a salary of $4,000 per annum, payable from the earnings of this athletic association. In addition to this, he has been furnished with a comfortable house, heat, light, fuel, and water. All of his expenses of every character have been met, amounting to thousands of dollars per annum. The majority, or nearly all, of his trips have been made as a coach, or in connection with athletic business, presumably. Government employees who have been receiving an extra salary out of these athletic funds are as follows: , . Will H. Miller, financial clerk, salary $1,000 per annum, has been receiving $35 per month out of the athletic funds for keeping the books and accounts. R. L. Mann, teacher, $720 per annum, has been receiving $15 per month extra out of these funds for doing Y. M. C. A. work. < Mrs. E. H. Foster, teacher, $810 per annum, has also been paid the sum of $15 per montli for doing Y. M. C. A. work. William H. Dietz, Indian assistant, salary $540 per annum, has generally been psid the sum of $500 per annum additional out of the athletic funds for acting as assistant Various ministers residing at Carlisle have received $5 for each Sunday service. This payment for Sunday services usually amounts to $25 per month. It is noticeable that all denominations other than the Catholic Church have been receiving said pay- ments. One minister who seems to have been especially favored is Mr. M enderf er . Some moneys have been paid to the Dickinson College at Carlisle to cover the tuition fees of various football pupils who were boarded and housed at the :tok, Indian School and kept for the purpose of playing football Some of these pupils so favored were James Thorpe, /rank Mountp easant, William Garlow, Gus Welsl , Antonio Lubo, Peter and Frank Hauser, Lewis Tewanama, and others. These foot- ball players were generally also paid irom $10 to $15 per month out of said ^ Aside from the cash paymente made to football players, they have been furnished wKrfKf overcoats, shoes, watches, charms, medals, and other equip- ment to addition to .the regular athletic clothing, viz, sweaters, trunks, stockings, shoes etc Xch are always furnished the teams. These suits of clothing, overcoats, watches etc , ^er payments indirectly, instead of money to these football players. 1338 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Supt. Friedman spent hundreds of dollars per annum out of said funds in expenses incurred l>y himself, wife, and friends in visiting these games. Note — < 'heck No. 1181, Jan. 20, 1909, expenses to Washington $70. 90 ( licck No. 1534, Sept. 4, 1909, expenses to Washington 16. 00 Check No. 1633, Oct. 2S, 1909, expenses to Washington 87. 00 Check No. 1806, Jan. 29, 1910, expenses to Washington 27.00 Check No. 2001, May 24, 1910, expenses to Hampton 16.00 Check No. 2016, Jan. 22, 1910, expenses to Philadelphia, Pa 17. 00 Mileage bocks 40. 00 Check No. 2314, Dec. 6, 1910, expenses to football team 211.00 Check No. 2412, Feb. 8, 1911 56.86 Check No. 2615, July 11, 1911, expenses to New York 22. 00 Check No. 2622, July 28, 1911, expenses to Washington 17. 00 Check No. 2747, Nov. 20, 1911, expenses to Philadelphia, Pa 55.00 Check No. 2800, July 28, 1911, expenses to Boston 48.00 ( "h?ck No. 2848, Jan. 27, 1912, expenses to Washington 42. 20 < 'h -ok No. 2929, Apr. 9, 1912, expenses 58. 60 Check No. 3138, Nov. 14, 1912, expenses to Washington 75. 65 Check No. 3139, Nov. 15, 1912, expenses to Philadelphia, Pa 69. 20 Theater 10. 00 Additional expenses to Philadelphia, Pa 22. 00 Check No. 3508, October 24, 1913, hotel bill, Philadelphia, Friedman 54.05 Etc. In addition 'to the above, he always had mileage books, which were paid for out of this athletic fund, used by himself and wife. Also, we find by check No. 3311, April 9, 1913, $102.70 for entertaining by Mrs. Friedman. The Government does not insure its buildings and has never made a practice of doing so, still I find some of these buildings covered by insurance and checks paid out of the athletic funds, as follows: Check No. 1499, dated Aug. 31, 1909 $30.00 Check No. 1533, dated S^pt. 2, 1909 60.00 Check No. 3025, dated Aug. 10, 1912 60.00 Check No. 3028, dated Aug. 10, 1912 60. 00 Check No. 3188, dated Dec. 9, 1912 7.20 I also find that it has In en customary to pay the chief of police of Carlisle the sum of $2 for the arrest of each Indian boy student found in Carlisle without a pasB. Also, the sheriff and detective, have been paid for making arrests of students. Loans of money have been made from said athletic funds to members of the foot- ball team, as follows: Albert B. Exendide, $200; Lewis Tewanama, $300; Gus Welsh, ^50; and others, knowing when said loans were made, or feeling absolutely sure, that they would never be repaid. Check No. 1051, dated November 21, 190S, was to pay the Postal Telegraph Co. 515 for furnishing election returns. During the years 1907-8 Northern Pacific & Pleading Railway bonds were pur- ■ hiised by the former superintendent, Maj. W. A. Mercer, out of these athletic funds. This investment appears to have been a fortunate one, in that all of those bonds or railroad stocks were later sold at a, profit, as per lists herewith inclosed, marked "Exhibits D and E," which lists give the number of the bond, date of purchase, purchase price, date of sale, sale price, and the profit, which aggregate $1,588.25. However, I do not deem it advisable to thus speculate with funds which have been derived from school athletics or any other Government source. This list of checks, showing payments made oat of the athletic fund, I inclose herewith and mark "Exhibit I," and respectfully invite your attention to same. Attention is invited to various copies of bills rendered for clothing, shoes, etc., for the athletic boys, and particularly the football players. These copies of bills I attach and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit F." I also inclose itemized list, showing amount of money paid each football player during the years 1907-8 out of the two checks, aggregating $9,233. These I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit G." I also call your attention to the fact that out of the $9,233 paid to football players during the years 1907-8 James Thorpe, a professional, received the sum of $500. lnese football games were played in various parts of the country— in Minnesota, Nebraska, Missouri, Colorado, Pennsylvania, Illinois, New York, Massachusetts, Ohio, District of Columbia, and other points. The receipts generally have been quite large, varying from a few dollars to nearly $17,000 for one game for the portion CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1339 awarded the Carlisle Indian School. In almost every instance the manager of the athletic field where the game was played rendered a statement showing the total proceeds derived from the game, the total amount of expenditures of every nature, and the amount due the Carlisle team, which generally ran from 33$ per cent to 50 per cent of the proceeds. These statements are generally on file in the office, from which I could verify the books. The material for the business department of the academic building was built out of athletic funds, costing approximately $7,000. The material for the printing office was also paid out of said athletic funds, costing approximately $2,500. The old hospital was remodeled into athletic quarters and the material paid from said funds. This remodeled building cost approximately $13,000. The two-story frame cottage occupied by Glenn S. Warner, coach, was' built out of said athletic funds. This building cost approximately $3,400. The studio, or art building, a one-story cement-block structure, was also built out of said athletic funds and cost approximately $3,500. The grading of the athletic field, which cost approximately $1,000, was paid from said athletic funds. The fire engine and hose house was built from said funds, which cost approximately $300. The material for the construction of these buildings was furnished and paid for out of the athletic fund, but the construction work was largely paid for by the Govern- ment. All payments have been made out of said fund by check, and generally a bill or statement furnished covering the items paid. In many instances these bills appear to be extremely liberal, and the moneys have been used for paying all class of ex- penses, such as entertainments of various characters, lectures, salaries, transportation of pupils to play football, paying for tutorage for football boys at Dickinson College, paying them salaries, buying them clothing, etc., paying for newspaper press clip- pings, paying newspaper correspondents, attorneys' fees, druggists' bills, ministers' bills, athletic goods of all descriptions, periodicals, insurance, watches, medals, arrests, loans of money, etc. Articles of incorporation for a charter for said athletic association were filed April 11, 1911, with the recorder of deeds of Cumberland County, Pa., which, by said arti- cles of incorporation, was entitled "Carlisle Indian School Athletic Association." The names of the incorporators were: Moses Friedman; Glenn S. Warner, coach; Will H. Miller, financial clerk; William Garlow; D. H. Wuseka, football player. The first three named reside at Carlisle, Pa. The officers of said organization are Glenn S. Warner, president; Will H. Miller, secretary and treasurer, and these two officers, together with Moses Friedman, superintendent, constitute the executive committee. The books and accounts are being properly kept, except they are not quite as full and complete as should be for information. The balance in said athletic fund on February 13, 1914, was $25,640.08, for which check in said amount was made to O. H. Lipp, supervisor in charge. . The rules and regulations of the Indian Office approved by the Secretary ot trie Interior June 14, 1910, specifically provide that the athletic funds be taken up as class 4 funds by the superintendent and special disbursing agent at each Indian school and on each Indian reservation, and under the heading of class 4 funds, para- graph 289, appears the following: "(g) School entertainment, band concerts, athletic contests, sales ot curios, or fancy articles manufactured by pupils * * *." It will be noted that the articles of incorporation were filed after the amendment No. 30 to the regulations approved June 14, 1910, which were at all times since that date on file in the superintendent's office at Carlisle, Pa. Section 250 of the Eevised Statutes, 5488, provides that— . "When an agent deposits any public money in any public place not designated for the purpose by the Secretary of the Treasury, or any employee converts, loans, transfers, or applies public money, he will be deemed guilty, etc „„„ hlo Amendment 30 of the regulations dated May 16, 1910, approved by the honorable Secretary of the Interior, provides, among other things, that— „ nT , 00110 onllrPP , "Funds coming into the hands of disbursing officers from miscellaneous sources are divided into the following class and must all be taken up and accounted for m compliance with the act of July 1, 1898 30 Stat. L., 595 , which provides that here- aZlXn agente shall account for all funds coming into their hands as custod an from any source whatever, and be responsible therefor under their official bonds - Upon my arrival at the Carlisle Indian School one of my first demands was lor the books a y nd accounts of the athletic funds for investigation I .made > such demand of the financial clerk, W. H. Miller, who is secretary and treasurer of the athletic 1340 CAEL1SLE IXDIAN SCHOOL. association in the absence of the superintendent, Moses Friedman. He was loath to turn said books and accounts over to me for investigation, and stated, as did also Glenn S. Warner, coach and president, of said athletic association, that the same was a private fund of which the Government or its officers had no control, and I had to insist quite strenuously in order to obtain the books and accounts of said athletic association for the purpose of checking them up. The result of same is herein indi- cated . While it is true that some of the funds derived from these football games have been put to a very good and worthy purpose, viz, the construction of various buildings on the school grounds, etc., still a large amount of such funds have been improperly used and various interests have been subsidized by the use of such moneys. In conformity with telegram, dated Washington, D. C, February 17, 1914, received by me from Hon. Gato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, I obtained the written consent of Glenn S. Warner, president and director; Will H. Miller, secretary, treasurer, and director, and Moses Friedman, superintendent and director of the Carlisle Athletic Association, to turn over the funds of said association to the supervisor in charge, which was done, and I have the honor to inclose herewith copy of said agreement, signed by said three officers and directors of said association, which I mark "Ex- hibit H." The principal teacher of said school, Mr. John Whitwell, stated to me, in referring to the influence of athletics on the shop and school room work in general: " I wish to add that so long as the school boys are allowed to play on teams and pub- licly represent the school without any regard to their progress or standing in shop and school room work, just so long this influence will continue to be a menace to the best interests of the pupil and the school." This opinion is concurred in by Charles H. Cams, painter; Martin L. Lau, carriage- maker; John A. Herr, carpenter; H. Gardner, assistant carpenter; William 0. Sham- baugh, blacksmith; Harry B. Lamason, mason; John Boltz, shoemaker; Robert B. George, tinner ; Ramond Reneker, baker; each being a Government employee in charge of the various shops; William B. Gray, farmer; C. K. Ballard, second farmer; W. J. Ryan, dairyman; George Abrams, gardener; William Nonnast, tailor, and a majority of the other employees at said school. In this connection your attention is respectfully invited to the testimony given by these various employees, as embraced in "Exhibits A and B " before the joint commit- sion which testimony is properly indexed. The fact is that athletics at said school rank first, the band second, and commence- ment exercises third. Everything was done for advertisement, show and glitter, all at the sacrifice of the schooling, farming, gardening, dairying, trades, and industrial teaching. Everything was made to be subservient to athletics and football. This as to the academic and industrial work. The boys were taken out of the school and out of the shops, and special privileges were granted to football players. Now, with relation to Glenn S. Warner, coach. As heretofore stated, Mr. Warner, coach, has been receiving a salary of $4,000 per annum, house rent, heat, light, etc., for many years past, his salary being much greater than that of the superintendent. His work during the football season as coach probably covers a period of three months. Mr. Warner appears to have had a great influence over Moses Friedman, superinten- dent, and exhibited to me a three-year contract entered into January 14, 1914, between himself and Moses Friedman, superintendent, under the terms oi which he was to receive a salary of 54,000 per annum, house rent, heat and light for a period of three years from January 1, 1914. This contract or agreement, in writing, between him- self and Moses Friedman was without authority of this department and does not in any manner bind the Government or Supt. Friedman's successor in office. Six members of the first football team led bv Elmer Bush, the captain of said team, appeared before me and made affidavits with relation to Coach Glenn S. Warner, their complaints being in substance as follows: The affidavit of Elmer Bush, captain of the first football team, is in substance as follows: "Mr. Warner is kind of rough to the football players, using profane language to them I heard him curse a boy named William Hodge; called him a son of a bitch, like that; said he was not doing his duty; said all that we think of was eating and did not give a damn if we played or not. He cursed Wallette. He cursed the foot- ball boys in the presence of the students and spectators. He cursed Aleck Arcasa when playing at the John Hopkins University. His influence among the student body and football boys is bad. "I know he is kind of good to the football boys during the season, and when he gets out of humor he calls them all kinds of names. As long as they play football he is their friend, but after they leave school he has nothing to do with them. After CAELISLB INDIAN SCHOOL. 1341 football season he has nothing to do with the football boys; in fact, he has nothing to do with the students who do not take part in athletics. I do not think he is honest. The boys have been displeased because they never know anything about the athletic receipts or disbursements. He has the say of the football boys whether they are to be sent home or to come back. I do not believe a man who curses and swears at the boys has good influence over them." (Affidavit marked "Exhibit J.") The affidavit of Gus Welsh, member of the first football team, shows in substance that he has been enrolled at said school as a student for a little over five years. He believes Mr. Warner is a good football coach, but a man with no principle; that he does not have the right influence over the student boys; that he is detrimental to their cause; that so long as he can use you he is all right with you; but the minute you voice your own sentiments and speak up for them he abuses you; that he uses profane language and curses the boys; that Coach Warner has cursed him and others; that he has used the worst cursing and swearing that he could use; that Coach War- ner would say to football boys he was vexed at: "You God damn bone head," or "You son of a bitch"; that he would use such language most every day on the ath- letic field; that he thought he was superior to the athletic boys, and that they would stand that kind of language; that he jumped the boys for making minor mistakes; that he saw him strike a football player named John Wallette; that he heard him once threaten a boy in Pittsburgh that he would knock his "damn block off." The boy's name was Roy Large. After having been associated with him for three years, he considers him no man for the place that he holds. His language is not what it should be. " I have one criticism to make. In each large game we have 50 to 75 complimentary tiekets which he is supposed to issue to the patrons of the school, and we have seen him sell these tickets outright in the hotel lobbies, and I think he kept the money. I regard him as being dishonest, and so do the other boys. The general opinion among the football boys is that Mr. Warner has been receiving a rake-off, or something of value, on account of purchases with athletic moneys, because the accounts have been so concealed there must be something wrong. Coach Warner practically controls the students who play football and take part in athletics, rather than the superin- tendent. A number of the prominent football boys have mentioned that they were in favor of discontinuing athletics if Mr. Warner was retained as coach. A short time ago, prior to your coming, I took a leading part among the student body in pro- curing a petition, which was signed by upward of 200 of the schoolboys, to have an investigation made of this school. Shortly thereafter I had a telegram that my brother was very ill in Wisconsin. I had another brother here at the school who was anxious to go home, and I wanted him to go home rather than myself; but Superin- tendent Friedman and Coach Warner were insistent that I should go, and they paid my expenses home out of the athletic fund, my idea being that they wanted to get rid of me during this investigation and not have me appear, as I am now doing." Your attention is invited to this affidavit, which is marked "Exhibit K." Edward Bracklin, a football player and member of the first football team the past two years, states, in substance, that Coach Warner is an abusive fellow when he is playing with the boys on the field; that he is not a very desirable leader, often uses profane language among the boys; that during the football season it is a daily occur- rence that he calls the boys "sons of bitches," and also other names; that he saw him strike a football player, John Wallette, with a stick, and in 1910 saw him kick one of the football boys and curse him. The boy's name was Lewis Dupois; that he uses profane language before the students, football boys, and curses them before the spec- tators; that Warner has full control of the football boys, makes them go and come to and from their homes as he wants to and sees fit, and controls them, rather than the superintendent of the school; that he writes the football boys about their coming back and handles the whole matter, pays the expenses out of the athletic association, and has the boys enrolled at the school simply to play football; that he believes he sells the complimentary tickets and keeps the money; that he is not a true sportsman, sending out scouts to get the other team's plays in advance and showing them to the boys, etc. This affidavit I mark" Exhibit L." Joseph Guyon, member of the first football team, says he has heard Coach Warner curse the football team and use profane language on the grounds of Carlisle and where they are playing football in the presence of students and spectators; that he would curse the boys and say "God damn" to them; that his influence over the boys was not good; that the boys had to take it, but they did not like it; that he has full control of the students who play football, regardless of the superintendent; the football boys do not feel that he is the proper person to have charge of them. 1342 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. This affidavit I mark "Exhibit II." John Wallette, member of the first football team, says that Coach Warner came up behind him and lashed him with a switch on one occasion when he was practicing football and had a sore shoulder, and that he has said things to the boys that lowered their reputation to the student body; that he said all they thought of was the good things to eat the football boys were getting, etc. This affidavit I mark "Exhibit X." Peter Calack, a member of the first football team, says he has heard Coach Warner curse the football boys on various occasions; that this occurred on the side lines when students and spectators were watching the plays; that his fare has been paid out of athletic funds, and he returned to the school, he believes, at the request of Coach Warner, who has more to do with the athletic boys than the superintendent. This affidavit I mark "Exhibit 0." William Newashe, a former student and football player at said school, states, in substance, that he played football during the years 1909, 1910, and 1911, when he was not enrolled and no longer a student; that he came back at the request of Coach Warner; that it was generally given out and supposed that he was a student at Carlisle during those years; that on one occasion his expenses were paid back to Carlisle and that he was given $50 worth of credit at different stores, and given a watch or souvenir medal, or something of that sort; that he has heard Coach Warner curse the football players. This affidavit I mark "Exhibit P." Elmer Bush, captain of the first football team, also makes affidavit that he and some of the other football boys were called over to Coach Warner's house quite recently and suggestion was made there to the boys present to get up a petition in favor of Supt. Friedman to offset the petition which had been gotten up by the student body. This affidavit I mark "Exhibit Q." Joseph Guyon also makes affidavit that he was called over to Coach Warner's house and suggestion was there made that the football boys should get up a petition to send to Supt. Friedman to offset the petition which the student body had gotten up. This affidavit I mark "Exhibit R." I also inclose statements of Glenn S. Warner, Elmer Bush, Charles Coons, and Wil- liam Carlow, which were handed to me by Glenn S. Warner. These statements 1 attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit S." In connection with the affidavit of Gus Welsh, it is also worthy of mention that it was he who, as a representative of the boys of the student body of Carlisle Indian School, presented a petition, dated January 7, 1914, Carlisle, Pa., addressed to Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, comprising 214 names of students, and that while he was at the home of - 'ongressman A. R. Rupley with said petition spread out before him, Rev. 0. M. Diffenderfer appeared, and said Gus Welsh states that he is satisfied that Rev. Diffenderfer reported such matter at once to Supt. Friedman, which was the cause of Supt. Friedman and Coach Warner being anxious to get rid of Gus Welsh. This petition which was delivered by said Gus Welsh to Congressman Rupley was never filed with the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, but was handed to me by Congressman Rupley for my information, he stating that he had not filed said petition with Commissioner Sells for the reason that he did not desire to put on record with the department anything which might reflect on members of the student body. I now hand you herewith this petition for your information, with the understanding that it is not to be considered a-, being filed With this department but is only turned over for information and is to be returned to Congressman Ruplev. Attention is also respectfully invited to the affidavit of E. K. Miller, printer, at Chilocco, Okla., formerly in charge of the printing establishment at Carlisle Indian School, with relation to football boys and athletic boys being unsatisfactory as printers, interfering with the discipline of the school, being paid, etc. This and other affidavits secured by Supervisor Brown at my request and forwarded to the Indian Office, are attached together as one exhibit, which I mark "Exhibit T." Among other things, Mr. E. K. Miller states that: "The athletic spirit was urged and allowed to predominate to such an extent that everything else seemed of a subordinate consideration. In fact, it was easy to imagine 'Pop' Warner the real superintendent, and never knew of his orders being counter- manded; that his power after Mr. Leupp left the service was absolute. "When it came to boys of my department joining the athletic teams, or the boya going to practice all hours and being away on trips, I had no voice in the matter. The statement so often seen that 'the Carlisle students' interest in athletics does not detract from the legitimate work of education,' that 'the time devoted to training comes out of the students' playtime,' and 'students are not allowed to neglect their studies and school work for this purpose,' are misstatements of facts, as my detailed records there will show. My work and that of others was secondary to these things. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1343 "Reports such as the above are easily understood when it is known that the head of the newspaper reporting bureau downtown was in the pay of the athletic association . "I have often heard the superintendent extol the director of athletics and hia work in such a way as to lead one to believe that that was Carlisle's important work. I have lost as many as six boys over my protests. Brought this matter up once at a faculty meeting, but the superintendent in a speech said the filling of the school was of first importance and that it was impossible to accomplish this if we did not allow students to have things more or less their own way. Both the athletic director and the director of music seemed independent of other departments." Mr. Miller in his affidavit also states that beer wagons stopped and carried cases of beer into the homes of Mr. Nori, chief clerk; Mr. Stauffer, bandmaster; and Mr. Warner, athletic master, on the grounds. From the foregoing, with relation to the athletic coach, Glenn S. Warner, I believe it is herein shown that by reason of his cursing and swearing at the athletic boys in the presence of students and spectators, and striking football players and various students, that his influence among the student body is not good. I believe, also, that his con- duct in handling the athletics has been demoralizing to said school and has been detri- mental to the teaching in the academic and industrial departments of said school, and for such reasons I believe that in the best interests of said school his services should be promptly dispensed with, and I have the honor to so recommend. For years he has been residing in a Government house on the grounds, furnished with heat and light, with a salary of $4,000 per annum for practically three months' service, while instructors in the trades and industrial lines who receive but a very nominal salary, from $700 to $900 per annum, have been compelled to pay house rent, heat and light, in the town of Carlisle, and pay their street car fare to and from the school. This also has been the cause of much unfavorable comment on the part of Government employees attached to said school. ACCOUNTS. I checked the books and accounts at said Carlisle Indian School and find that the same are being properly kept. The individual Indian moneys, being the funds of pupils which are deposited with the Farmers' Trust Co. of Carlisle, Pa., aggregated a total balance to the credit of said pupils at the close of business on February 12, 1914, of $28,811.71. At the close of business on said date the balance at said bank, as given to me, was $30,421.28, the difference of $1,609.57 being made up of outstand- ing checks which have been drawn against said individual Indian moneys and not yet cashed at said bank. A list of said outstanding checks is herewith inclosed for your information and marked "Exhibit U." The individual Indian accounts are being handled in a proper manner by the finan- cial clerk, Will H. Miller, whom I believe to be absolutely honest and competent, and who gives proper credits to the various students for all moneys turned over to him for deposit to their credit. ' Likewise they are given proper credits for accrued interest on their funds from the bank, and checks drawn against their accounts are properly charged. . , . Some complaint has been made by various pupils to the effect that they have not been receiving interest on their moneys, and also that they had not received proper credits for moneys received, etc. I could not ascertain any foundation for such charges. It is true, however, that a good many checks and drafts for various pupils, sent to them by their parents or guardians, are made payable to Moses Jmedman, the superintendent, and do not have to be indorsed, so that such moneys might be improperly converted, although I could ascertain no such instances. I learned that complaints of the pupils had been quite general that until quite recently they had not been provided with bank books to show their balances. Inere are between 600 and 700 accounts of pupils' individual moneys, aggregating a total of about $30,000. The bank probably does not feel justified m furnishing bank books showing monthly balances to each pupil, on account of the large number of small accounts, and so for about a year last past the financial clerk has been furnishing the students with little books resembling bank books, showing their balances ma like manner to a bank. These little books have been printed for the Carlisle Indian School and resemble a bank book in every way, except that they are simply state- ments of Xe Carlisle Indian School, showing the bank balance rather ^an tiiebank and these books and balances are kept and made "P^ p ^ e . t b ? ^ n ^ l s S b ^ t3 tll e the financial clerk showing each pupil's balance, and where it is understood by me Pupils a^ not being the bank's statement and balance, it is not deemed satisfactory "feSSfid bfnitX to Z Sent, showing their deposits, checks drawn a^ttTaS balances is an aid to the pupils in learning to keep their accounts 1344 CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. and a matter of just pride in being able to show a cash balance, and I believe it should be encouraged, and that the bank having such accounts should be willing to furnish bank books showing balances of all pupils. At the close of business on January 31, 1914, the balance chargeable to Moses Fried- mau, superintendent and special disburaing agent, was $41,698.10, which was made up from the balance in the following funds: Individual Indian moneys $27, 551. 09 Miscellaneous receipts : Class 1 786.45 Class 4 5,054.24 Indian moneys, proceeds school labor 363. 20 Indian school transportation in 1914 2, 297. 92 Indian school, Carlisle, Pa. . 1913 .62 1914 5,621.40 Purchase and transportation of Indian supplies, 1914 18. 72 Relieving distress and disease among Indians, 1914 4. 46 Total • 41, 698. 10 The above accounts do not embrace the athletic funds, the balance of which was $25,640.03, on February 13, 1914, and which has now been turned over to O. H. Lipp, supervisor in charge. The outing moneys earned by various pupils are received in the first instance by Clerk Mrs. Rosa B. La Flesche, and then turned over to the financial clerk, W. H. Miller, for deposit and credit to the various pupils. I have found also that the disciplinarian, Edward McKean, had an account which was moneys obtained by him for fines levied on various pupils for various offenses by court-martials. Since he has been at said school as disciplinarian for about a year, he has received $58.49 as such fines, and has disbursed $42.27, leaving a balance of $16.22, which I suggested should be turned over to the acting superintendent. This account of the disciplinarian I inclose herewith for your information, and mark "Exhibit V." FALSE ACCOUNTS AND VOUCHERS PRESENTED BY MOSES FRIEDMAN, SUPERINTENDENT OF THE CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL, SHOWING VOUCHERS FOR WHICH RAILROAD TRANS- PORTATION HAS BEEN CHARGED TO AND PAID BY THE GOVERNMENT, AND ALSO SHOWING THAT MILEAGE WAS USED WHICH HAD BEEN PURCHASED FROM THE CUM- BERLAND VALLEY RAILROAD CO. FOR MOSES FRIEDMAN, SUPERINTENDENT, AND PAID FOR OUT OF THE ATHLETIC FUNDS OF SAID CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL BY CHECKS DRAWN BY WILL H. MILLER, TREASURER, AND SIGNED BY HIM AND BY GLENN S. WARNER, PRESIDENT, IN PAYMENT FOR SAID MILEAGE, GIVING THE DATE OP TRAVEL, BETWEEN WHAT POINTS, NUMBER OF TRAIN, NAME OF CONDUCTOR, NUMBER OF MILES USED, NUMBER OF MILEAGE BOOK, AND SHOWING RECEIPTED BILLS OF THE CUMBERLAND VALLEY RAILROAD CO. FOR SAID MILEAGE AS PAID FOR BY THE ATH- LETIC ASSOCIATION FUNDS. Cash voucher No. 113, third quarter, 1910, being traveling expenses of Moses Fried, man, in the sum of $38.71, shows that March 3, 1910, he bought one ticket, Carlisle Pa., to New York City and return, for which he paid the sum of $8.93, as embraced in said bill. Said voucher shows that he returned from New York City to Carlisle, Pa., on March 5, 1910. On March 3, 1910, mileage book No. 125135 was used on train No. 4, Cumberland Valley Railroad, McOleary, conductor, between Carlisle and Harrisburg, Pa., for two passengers, 38 miles. The records in the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. show ttiat on March 3, 1910, mileage book No. 125135 was used on train No. 64, W. D. Shubert, Harrisburg to Philadelphia, Pa., for two passengers, and that 196 miles of said numbered mileage was pulled out of said book, the beginning number of the pulling of said mileage is 805 and the closing number is 1,000, using up balance of said mileage book. Also, on said date, March 3, 1910, mileage book No. 125300 was used on train No. 64, W. D. Shubert, between Harris- burg and Philadelphia, Pa., for two passengers, 12 miles, beginning with No. 1 of said mileage and ending with No. 12 out of said mileage book. On said date, March 3, 1910, said mileage, No. 125300, was used on train No. 124, C. W. Parks, conductor, between Philadelphia and New York, for two passengers, and 180 miles, beginning with No. 13 and pulling to No. 192 of the mileage in said numbered book. On March 5, 1910, mileage book No. 125300 was used on train No. 7, A. L. Prizer, conductor, between New York and Philadelphia, for two passengers, 180 miles, begin- ning with No. 193 and closing with No. 372 miles in said mileage book. Again, mileage CARLISLE INDIAX SCHOOL. 1345 book No. 125300 way used March 5, 1930, on train No. 7, Pennsylvania Railroad H W Harding ; conductor, Philadelphia to Harrisburg, for two passengers, 208 miles begin- ning with No. 373 and ending with No. 580 mileage in said book. On same date March 5, 1910, mileage book No. 125300 was again used on the Cumberland Valley Kailroad, tram No. 13, between Harrisburg and Carlisle, two passengers 28 miles Snodgrass, conductor. 6 ' • These are the dates-March 3 and March 5- of travel by Supt. Moses Friedman between Carlisle, Pa., and New York City, and between New York City and Carlisle Pa., as charged in said cash voucher 113, third quarter 1910 Mileage book No. 125135 was issved to Moses Friedman, superintendent, by the C uniberland \ alley Railroad Co. , February 19, 1910, and paid for on February 28 1910 K.7 ,™ s of . the athl etic association of the Carlisle Indian School. Mileage book No. 125o00 was issued to Moses Jriedman, superintendent, on March 3, 1910, by the Cumberland \ alley Railroad Co., and paid for April 1, 1910, by the treasurer and funds of the Carlisle Athletic Association. Said cash voucher No. 113, third quarter, 1910, being for the traveling expenses of Moses Friedman, superintendent, shows further that on March 17 he purchased one round-trip ticket, Carlisle, Pa., to Washington; D. C, for which he charges $7 18 Said voucher shows that he went to Washington from Carlisle on March 17 and returned from Washington to Carlisle on March 18, 1910. The records from the auditor's office of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. show that on March 17, 1910, mileage book No. 125300 was used from Carlisle to Harrisburg, one passenger, 19 miles, Conductor Lynn, and was again used on March 18 on train No. 11, Harrisburg to Carlisle one passenger, 19 miles, Conductor Wetzel. The records in the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co show that mileage book No. 125300 was used March 17, 1910, on train No. 20, A. B. Whirley, conductor, between Harrisburg, Pa., and Baltimore, Md., one passenger, 84 miles! beginning pulling with No. 638 and ending with No. 721, and said mileage book No! 125300 was again used on March 17, 1910, on Pennsylvania train No. 321, C. T. Sparks, conductor, between Baltimore, Md., and Washington, D. C, for one passenger, 40 miles, beginning pulling mileage with No. 722 and ending with No. 761. On March 18, 1910, mileage book No. 125300, was used on train No. 320, Pennsyl- vania Railroad, J. W. Smith, conductor, between Washington, D. C, and Baltimore, Md., one passenger, 40 miles, beginning pulling mileage with No. 762 and ending with No. 801. Again, on March 18, 1910, mileage book No. 125300 was used on Penn- sylvania, train No. 21, J. H. Milstead, conductor, between Baltimore, Md., and Harris- burg, Pa., for one passenger, 84 miles, beginning polling mileage with No. 802 and ending with No. 855. On March 18, 1910, mileage book No. 125300 was again used on the Cumberland Valley Railroad, on then- train No. 11, between Harrisburg and Carlisle, one passenger, 19 miles, Wetzel, conductor. This checks out mileage used by Supt. Moses Friedman on both of these round trips, Carlisle to New York City and return, and Carlisle to Washington and return, as embraced in voucher No. 113, third quarter, 1910. This mileage book No. 125300 was issued March 3, 1910, by the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co., at Carlisle, Pa., to Moses Friedman, superin- tendent, and was paid for April 1, 1910, by Will H. Miller, treasurer, from the funds of the Carlisle Athletic Association. Cash voucher No. 118, second quarter, 1912, being for the traveling expenses of Moses Friedman, superintendent, in the sum of $19.73, shows that on October 23, 1911, said Supt. Moses Friedman charged railroad fare to Washington, D. C, from Carlisle, Pa., $3.59. The records in the auditor's office of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. show that on Octobr 23, 1911, mileage book No. 923285 was used on train No. 8 between Carlisle and Harrisburg, Pa., one passenger, 19 miles, Conductor Lynn. The records of the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad show that on October 23, 1911, mileage book No. 923285 was used on Pennsylvania train No. 8, J. B. Hunt, conductor, between Harrisburg, Pa., and Baltimore, Md., one passenger, 84 miles, beginning with No. 822 and ending with No. 905 of said mileage book. Again, on October 23, 1911, said mileage book No. 923285 was used on Pennsylvania train No. 11, B. E. Dennis, conductor, from Baltimore, Md., to Washington, D. C, one passenger, 40 miles, beginning pulling mileage with No. 906, and ending with No. 945, of said mileage book. The records of the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad show that on Octo- ber 25, 1911, mileage book No. 923285 was used on Pennsylvania train No. 320, C. W. Hall, conductor, between Washington, D. C, and Baltimore, Md., one passenger, 40 miles pulled out of said mileage book, beginning with No. 946 and ending with No. 985. The auditor's records of the Pennsylvania Railroad also show that said mileage book No. 923285 was used on Pennsylvania train No. 21, October 25, 1911, between 35601— pt 11—14 25 1346 CARLISLE LXDIAX SCHOOL. Baltimore, Md., and Harrisburg, Pa., E. E. Miller, conductor, one passenger, and that the last 15 miles of said book was used, commencing with pulling No. 986 and ending with No. 1000. Also on said Pennsylvania train No. 21, between Baltimore, Md., and Harrisburg, Pa., on October 25, 1911, E. E. Miller, conductor, mileage No. 923321 was used for one passenger, 69 miles, beginning with No. 1 and ending with No. 69 of mileage in said mileage book, making a total of 84 miles pulled by E. E. Miller,, conductor, between Baltimore, Md., and Harrisburg, Pa., on train No. 21, October 25, 1911, out of mileage books Nos. 923285 and 923321. The records of the auditor's office of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co., show that mileage book No. 923321 was used on October 25, 1911, on their train No. 11, between Harrisburg and Carlisle, Pa., for one passenger, and that 19 miles were pulled out of said mileage book by Wetzel, conductor. The records of trie Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. at Carlisle, Pa., show that mileage book No. 923285 was delivered October 14, 1911, to Supt. Moses Friedman, and that mileage book No. 923321 was delivered to Supt. Moses Friedman October 23, 1911, and that both mileage books were paid for by Will H. Miller, treasurer, from the Carlisle Athletic Association moneys, by check No. 2720. Cash voucher 117, second quarter, 1912, for traveling expenses of Moses Friedman, superintendent, in the sum of $23.58, shows that he charged on September 18, 1911, railroad fare, Carlisle, Pa., to Washington, D. C, $3.59. The records of the auditor's office of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. show that on September 18, 1911, mileage book No. 723670 was used on train No. 6 between Car- lisle and Harrisburg, Pa., Kuhn, conductor, for two passengers, and that 38 miles were pulled out of said mileage book. The records of the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad show that on Sep- tember 18, 1911, the same mileage book, No. 723670, was used on Pennsylvania train No. 2, between Harrisburg, Pa., and Baltimore, Md., J. B. Hunt, conductor, for two passengers, that the last 57 miles of said mileage book was pulled from No. 944 to No. 1000, inclusive. Also, on said trip between said points, on said date and on said train No. 2, the same conductor, J. B. Hunt, pulled mileage out of mileage book No. 772763 fortwo passengers, 111 miles, beginning withNo. 474 and ending with No. 584 mileage of said book, making a total of 168 miles pulled out of Baid two mileage books for said two passengers between Harrisburg and Baltimore. The records of the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad further show that said mileage book No. 772763 was used September 18, 1911, on Pennsylvania train No. 15, between Baltimore, Md., and Washington, D. C, L. W. Ragan, conductor, for two passengers, and that 80 miles was pulled out of said mileage book beginning with No. 585 and ending with No. 664. Mileage book No. 723670 was delivered by the agent of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. at Carlisle, Pa., May 18, 1911, to Supt. Moses Friedman, and was paid for by Will H. Miller, treasurer, Carlisle Athletic Association, by check No. 2591, and that mileage book No. 772763 was delivered by the agent of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co., Carlisle, Pa., July 31, 1911, to Supt. Moses Friedman, and was paid for by Will H. Miller, treasurer of the Carlisle Athletic Association, from such funds, by check No. 2627. Cash voucher 142, second quarter, 1913, for traveling expenses of Moses Friedman, superintendent, in the sum of $14.02, shows that November 23, 1912, he charged 143 miles mileage at 2 cents a mile to the Government, $2.86, in going from Carlisle, Pa., to Washington, D. O, and on November 25, 1911, charged 143 miles at 2 cents a mile, $2.86, returning from Washington, D. C, to Carlisle, Pa. The records of the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. show that on November 24, 1912, mileage book No. 269235 was used between Baltimore and Wash- ington, W. B. Lynn, conductor, one passenger, 40 miles, and that mileage was pulled from No. 604 to No. 643. Said mileage No. 269235 at mile No. 604 shows the punch mark of Conductor C. R. Miller, who runs on the main line of the Pennsylvania Rail- road between Harrisburg and Baltimore, Md., showing that said mileage book had been used between said points, although the identical mileage pulled could not be located. On November 25, 1912, mileage book No. 269235 was used on the Pennsylvania Railroad, tram No. 308, between Washington, D. C, and Baltimore, Md., H. G. Duvall, conductor, one passenger, and 40 miles was pulled out of said mileage book, beginning with No. 644 and ending with No. 683. Also, on same date, November 25, 1912, said mileage book No. 269235 was used on Pennsylvania train No. 55, between Baltimore, Md., and Harrisburg, Pa., C. W. Rhodes, conductor, one passenger, and 84 miles was pulled out of said mileage book, beginning with No. 684 and ending with No. 767. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1347 The records of the auditor's office of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. show that on November 25, 1912, mileage No. 269235 was used on their train No. 13, be- tween Harrisburg, Pa., and Carlisle, Pa., Snodgrass, conductor, and that 19 miles was pulled out of said numbered mileage book. Mileage book No. 269235 was delivered by the agent of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co., Carlisle, Pa., on October 19, 1912, to Supt. Moses Friedman, and was paid for by Will H. Miller, treasurer, out of the Carlisle Athletic Association funds, by check No. 3127. For your information in connection with these trips showing mileage used, the date, number of train, between what points, number of passengers, number of miles, conductor, etc., on both the Cumberland Valley Railroad and the Pennsylvania Railroad, I inclose herewith copies of the memoranda furnished by the officers of said railroad companies as taken from the auditor's offices in the passenger department of said Cumberland Valley and Pennsylvania Railroads. These papers I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit W," and invite your attention to same. List of mileage purchased from the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co., Carlisle, Pa., and paid for by Will H. Miller, treasurer, from the funds of the Carlisle Athletic Association for Moses Friedman, superintendent, viz: Paid by check No. Feb. 19,] 910 Mar. 3,1910 Nov. 23,1910 Mar. 3,1911 Apr. 13,1911 May 18,1911 July 31,1911 Oct. 14,1911 Oct. 24,1911 Nov. 10,1911 Nov. 24, 1911 Dec. 14,1911 Mar. 9, 1912 May 29,1912 July 3, 1912 Aug. 30,1912 Sept. 12,1912 Sept. 21, 1912 Oct. 12,1912 19, 1912 4, 1913 23,1913 . 6, 1913 Mar. 11,1913 May 16,1913 June 26,1913 Oct. 24,1913 Oct. 29,1913 Nov. 14,1913 Oct. Jan. Jan. Feb. 1 mileage book, No. 125136. . 1 mileage book, No. 12:300. . 1 mileage book, No. 458567. . 1 mileage book, No. 671831. . 1 mileage book, No. 672628. . 1 mileage book, No. 723670. . 1 mileage book, No. 772763. . 1 mileage book, No. 923285. . 1 mileage book, No. 923321 . 1 mileage book, No. 923732. . 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book. No. 269235. 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book 1 mileage book Total. Jan. Feb. 21,1914 12,1914 1 mileage book for M. Friedman 2 mileage books for M. Friedman (Nos. . 497698 and 497699). Total. S20. 00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 580. 00 20.00 40.00 1861 1914 2301 2486 2550 2591 2627 2720 2720 2752 2752 2801 2909 2991 3047 3047 3083 3083 3127 3127 3240 3240 3275 3293 3378 3405 3528 3528 3573 60.00 Bills for the last three mileage books in the sum of $60 were rendered by the Cum- berland Valley Railroad Co. to Mr. Will H. Miller, treasurer of the athletic association, for this mileage purchased by Moses Friedman. I took these bills from Mr. Miller and instructed him not to pay the same. Thereafter, Mr. Miller talked with Glenn S. Warner, coach, about these bills, and the bill of George W. Shuler, detective agency, Harrisburg Pa which had been rendered in the sum of .$53.75, and which I had also taken,' and said Warner unquestionably notified Moses Friedman that I had taken these railroad bills for mileage furnished him, and said Moses Friedman then notified the officers of the Cumberland Valley Railroad CV at Carlisle, Pa., that he would pay for said mileage books personally. Then the officers of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. called me up over the telephone and requested the return of these bills, advising me that Moses Friedman would pay for the same lii W A Bender and Mr. Robert K. Wise, agents of the Cumberland Valley Rail- road Co. 'at Carlisle, Pa., who have been employed with said company at said point 1348 CARLISLE INDIAX SCHOOL. for many years past, both informed me that said Moses Friedman has never until now paid for any mileage or railroad transportation through their office. I inclose herewith 32 bills as rendered by the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. for railroad mileage furnished to Supt. Moses Friedman. The first 2!) bills, aggre- gating mileage for Supt. Friedman in the sum of $580, have been paid for out of the athletic association funds for the Carlisle Indian School. The latter three bills have not been paid out of such funds for the reason as herein explained. These 32 bills I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit X." This Cumberland Valley Railroad mileage is interchangeable and good over the Pennsylvania Railroad, where the same was used more extensively by Supt. Fried- man than over the Cumberland Valley Railroad. His wife often traveled with him, which accounts for the pulling of niile'age for two passengers in the instances as set forth. I inclose the triplicate cash vouchors of Moses Friedman, superintendent, for his traveling expenses, as follows: Voucher No. 113, third quarter 1910 Voucher No. 118, second quarter 1912 Voucher No. 117, second quarter 1912 Voucher No. 142, second quarter 1913 as these vouchers show Government accounts filed and payments made for trans- portation, when he was using mileage that had been paid for out of the Carlisle Ath- letic Association funds, as above shown. I also inclose triplicate of cash voucher, No. 148, fourth quarter, 1910, of Moses Friedman, superintendent, which shows that in addition to the payments made by the Government he charged and collected $16 additional expenses from the athletic association for said trip, which was paid for by athletic association check No. 2001. These five cash vouchers I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit Y." The foregoing I consider absolute and conclusive proof establishing the fact that Supt. Moses Friedman has presented false accounts to the Government. If I had been able to secure the numbers of other mileage books which are embraced in the $580 worth paid for by said athletic association funds, as herein shown, for Supt. Moses Friedman, I could unquestionably have checked up other trips showing wherein he had charged up railroad fare to the Government in his accounts and used said mileage. I took from the athletic association bill book of said Carlisle Indian School accounts rendered as follows: w Expenses of Moses Friedman, superintendent, going to and coming from New York, and while there, June 22-23 $22. 00 Expenses to Washington, D. G, July 25-26, Moses Friedman, in interest of school 17. 00 Bill of the Daily Sentinel, Carlisle, for furnishing daily papers to Moses Fried- man, superintendent, from January, 1911, to January, 1912 4. 50 Bill of the Central Book Store, Carlisle, Pa., Dec. 31, 1913, for Philadelphia Press for Moses Friedman, Jan. 1, 1913, to Jan 1, 1914 5.72 which bills have been duly paid out of the athletic association funds. These checks are shown in payments of said athletic association funds in "Exhibit I," to which attention is respectfully invited. These four bills I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit Z." I inclose, also, bill of George W. Shuler, Detective Agency, Harrisburg, Pa., Feb- ruary 5, 1914, in the sum of $53.75. This bill is rendered for services January 23 to February 1, 1914—10 days at $5 a day and expenses, and is said to be "For services rendered to discover illegal furnishing of liquor to Indians." My private opinion is that this detective was employed by Supt. Friedman to watch me after my arrival in Carlisle. Certain it is, he rendered no service and secured no evidence with relation to the furnishing of liquor to any Indians at Carlisle. Coach Warner said that he employed this detective under instructions of Supt. Friedman. Inasmuch as this department has a fund of $75,000 or $100,000 per annum appro- priated, and a large number of special liquor officers whose duty it is to suppress the furnishing of liquor to Indians, which fact was well known to Supt. Friedman, I did not believe said bill to be a just and proper one, and I instructed the secretary and treasurer of the athletic funds, Will H. Miller, not to pay the same. I inclose said bill herewith for your information, and mark the same "Exhibit A-l." CARLISLE IXDIAN SCFIOOL. 1349 CORPORAL PUNISHMENT— CRUEL WHIPPING OP JULIA HARDIN BY MUSICAL DIRECTOR CLAUDE M. STAUFFER— WHIPPING OF POUR STUDENT BOYS IN THE LOCKUP BY DAVID H. DICKEY, OUTING AGENT— CRUEL TREATMENT BY DISCIPLINARIAN WALLACE DENNY STRIKING BOYS WITH HIS FIST— INSUBORDINATION TO INSPECTOR LINNEN BY MUSICAL DIRECTOR CLAUDE M. STAUFFER. It came to my knowledge that a young lady pupil at said school by the name of Julia ™™i? 8 y eai 's of age, had been whipped by Bandmaster Claude M. Stauffer. I called this young lady to the office and took her sworn statement with relation to same which I herewith inclose for your information and mark "Exhibit B-l." Briefly stated, this Julia Hardin is a member of the Potawatoroi Tribe, about three-fourths white blood. She is 18 years of age and a bright, intelligent good girl Prior to coming to the Carlisle Indian School she had attended the Sacred Heart Convent near Shawnee, Okla. She is an orphan and her conduct at said school has been exceptionally good. Her teachers and: every one with whom she has come in contact speak highly of her. It appears that she refused to go on an outing in the coun- try during the summer of 1913, for her stated reason that she did not have proper clothing and did not have any trunk or suit case in which to carry her things. Because of her refusal to go, the matron reported the matter to Supt. Friedman, who sent over Bandmaster Stauffer and he tried to induce the girl to go on the outing. She steadfastly refused, when said Stauffer returned to the office and reported the matter to Supt. Friedman and said to Supt. Friedman: "What she needs is a good straight- ening out. I think she should have a spanking." Supt. Friedman said to him: "Why don't you give it to her?" Stauffer said: "I will give it to her if you say so." Supt. Friedman said: "Goahead." Then, Bandmaster Stauffer went back and talked to Julia Hardin, struck her in the face with his hand, and got a slab, or board, which Julia Hardin said was about 4 inches wide and 2J feet long, and struck her over the head, shoulders, and back, after he had thrown her on the floor; and she says that he struck her as many as 40 or 50 times; that she was held by the matron and was on the floor while he was whipping her; also, that he spanked her with his hand before he got the stick to whip her with. She also says he threw her on the floor several times. It appears that subsequently, the principal, John Whitwell, was called in and by kindness he induced Julia Hardin to do as was requested by the matron. She finally did go on an outing in the country after she had been put in the lockup at the school, and worked for Mr. and Mrs. Crawford in Merchantville, N. J., for §6 a month; working in their kitchen, doing their cooking, dish washing, and washing of clothing, etc., for a period of three months, paying her railroad expenses one way. In this connection I desire to state that a white girl who performed a like service would probably have received $5 or $6 a week instead of $6 a month. Your attention is invited to the affidavit of Julia Hardin, "Exhibit B-l," and also to her sworn statement given before the joint commission, which will be found at page No. 229. I then called Claude M. Stauffer, bandmaster, to the office and took his statement," but prior thereto I put him under oath so that the testimony which he gave was under oath. Subsequently, -he refused to sign the same and tried to substitute another statement which is attached to his affidavit and which I herewith inclose and mark "Exhibit C-l." I respectfully invite your attention to same as said affidavit gives his statement, under oath, of which actually occurred when he whipped this young- lady. He admits telling Supt. Friedman that she needed a spanking and that Supt. Friedman instructed him to give her one. He admits smacking her over the mouth, spanking her, and paddling her with a stick. The day following the giving of this testimony, under oath before me, by said Claude M. Stauffer, I called him into the office to sign this affidavit, after his state- ment had been put in typewriting. He refused to sign it, and handed me a two- page typewritten copy of a statement which he said he desired to substitute. Know- ing, as I did, that the joint congressional committee was to be in Carlisle withina day or two thereafter, and not caring whether he signed the affidavit or not, as I would have him brought before said committee to testify, I told him that if he did not choose to sign the statement he had made before me under oath that he was excused, to which Mr. Stauffer replied : "I'll give you to understand you are not superintendent here. You can't bluff us the way you have been doing things around here." I again stated to him: "I told you that you were excused." Mr. Stauffer then got up and said: "You can't bluff anybody around here. We know you. We are onto your game. Furthermore, you are no gentleman ; you are no gentleman, do you hear that" ? making these remarks in a very loud and angry tone of voice, to which I made no Mr Will H Miller, financial clerk, was present in the room and heard this conver- sation and this insubordination on the part of said Claude M. Stauffer. His affidavit 1350 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. with relation to this matter is inclosed herewith for your information and marked "Exhibit J )-!.." Subsequently, I called the principal, Mr. John Whitwell, to the office and interro- gated him with relation to the statement which Stauffer desired to insert in his affi- davit, which was, in effect, that he (Whitwell) had pulled Julia Hardin up from the floor, saying that she did not have half enough of a whipping and threatened to give her more himself, and ordeied her detention in the lockup over night. These statements made by Claude M. Stauffer, Mr. Whitwell states under oath, are false. Mr. Whitwell's affidavit, which I inclose herewith and mark "Exhibit E-l " also gives his version of the whipping of this young lady, to which your atten- tion is invited. Said Claude M. Stauffer also appeared before the joint congressional committee and gave testimony, under oath, which is shown on page 587, et al., in relation to this matter. Your special attention is invited to this sworn statement of Mr. Stauffer wherein he states under oath that he administered this corporal punishment to Julia Hardin under Supt. Friedman's instructions; that the statements he made in the affidavit which he gave to me were true. He also admits making offensive statements to Inspector Linnen; admits slapping Julia Hardin across the mouth, pushing her over on her knees, spanking her with his hand and striking her with a stick and slap- ping her in the face, from a sense of duty; and when he requested instructions from Supt. Friedman about spanking this young lady, Supt. Friedman told him to go ahead and do it. I also desire to draw attention to the evidence of Miss Rose Lyons, as given on pages 128 and 129, joint commission, showing how Mr. Stauffer procured a mandolin from a girl pupil and sold same at a profit. I hereby charge said Claude M. Stauffer, musical director, with insubordination by his having made insulting, ungentlemanly, and offensive remarks to me, in my presence, without cause or justification, exhibiting extreme anger and a very insulting disposition. 1 further charge that this occurred while he was attempting to substitute a statement in lieu of the one which he had made under oath before me, which state- ment he desired to substitute contained statements as to one John Whitwell, prin- cipal, which said Whitwell states under oath are untrue. (See also the sworn testimony of Principal John Whitwell before the joint commis- sion, p. 194 et sett.) By reason of his conduct in the whipping of this young lady, his general attitude at said school, and his insubordination toward his superior officer, I have the honor to recommend and request that his services be permanently dispensed with. In thu connection, with relation to the whipping of this young lady, Supt. Fried- man directed same without just cause and in violation of the expressed wish of the department prohibiting corporal punishment. David H. Dickey, outing agent of said Carlisle Indian School, inflicted corporal punishment on four Indian boy students, named Thomas Necklace, Charles Belcourt, Robert Nash, and Charles Williams, ranging in age from 17 to 23 or 24 years; that he whipped them in the jail on the grounds at Carlisle while he was acting as disciplin- arian during the winter of 1913-14. He whipped these boys with a trunk strap, after having made them stoop over in a reclining position, holding their hands over a stationary washbowl, giving them in the neighborhood of 50 lashes, or strikes, apiece. During this whipping there were present, besides Mr. David H. Dickey, who administered the punishment, Coach Warner, Bandmaster Stauffer, John M. Rudy, and Mr. Dietz. It appears that Coach Warner and Bandmaster Stauffer were present in the jail when this whipping was administered to see that it was properly done, and it appears that Coach Warner commanded the boys to put their hands over the washbowl and bend down to receive the punishment. \ So, again, it appears that Bandmaster Stauffer was lending his presence and support in the whipping of four young men students in the jail at said institution, and Coach Warner was also lending his presence and support, and compelling the boys to stoop over so that they could be properly thrashed. This affidavit of Mr. David II . Dickey I mark "Exhibit F-l." I have the honor to recommend that Outing Agent David H. Dickey receive a repri- mand and be instructed to inflict no further corporal punishment on the students of said Carlisle Indian School. Assistant Disciplinarian Wallace Denny, who has charge of the smaller boys' dormi- tory and who is a Chippewa Indian from the Oneida (Wis.) Reservation, has on occa- sion struck some of the boy pupils with his fist and knocked one boy down a stairway, cut one boy over the eye with his ring by striking him in the face. My judgment is that he should receive a reprimand and be instructed not to strike the students with his fist. CARLISLE TXDTAS SCHOol . 1351 The testimony of some of the pupils, particularly that of Lewis Braun, at pa^e 63 volume 1, joint commission testimony, complains about Disciplinarian Denny striking the boys with his list. b COMMITMENT OF STUDENTS TO THE COUNTY JAIL AT CARLISLE, PA., FOR TRIVIAL OF- FENSES, AND IN SOME CASES HAVING THEM SENTENCED UNJUSTLY AND IN VIOLA- TION OF LAW. Some of the pupils, both boys and girls, have on several occasions been confined in the county jail of Cumberland County, Pa., at Carlisle. * desire to draw y° ur particular attention to the case of Paul Jones and Ethel Williams, who during the month of September, 1913, were placed in the said countv jail and remained there for a period of 70 days. Paid Jones is about 20 years of age. He is from the Umatilla Reservation, in Ore- gon, and arrived at the school at Carlisle February 1, 1912. Ethel Williams is 18 years of age and from the Onondaga Reservation, R. F. D. No. 5 Syracuse, N. Y. She arrived at said Carlisle School in November, 1912. These children were charged with fornication by E. E. McKean, disciplinarian at said school, on September 20, 1913, who swore to such a complaint before a justice of the peace, under instructions from Supt. Friedman. These children were then re- moved from the jail on the school's grounds at Carlisle to the Cumberland County Jail, Carlisle, and placed in charge of the sheriff, Mr. Walters. Paul Jones was brought to the county jail in Carlisle from the school with no coat or vest. _ An incident under said charge was prepared by the district attorney, but was never signed by him. These children were never brought into court, but were induced by the district attorney to enter pleas of guilty in the county jail, as I am reliably informed by Disciplinarian E. E. McKean. They were induced to enter pleas of guilty, so Mr. McKean says, in order that they might commence serving their sentences right away, and thereby be enabled to get out of jail earlier. The judge, in his own handwriting, put this statement on the back of each of these unsigned indictments: "And now, 23d of September, 1913, the sentence of the court is that defendant shall pay the cost of prosecution and to suffer imprisonment for 60 days and remain com- mitted in the county jail until this sentence is complied with. "By the court. "W. F.Sanders, P.J." I have the original court papers in these cases in my possession and herewith file true copies thereof for your information, which four papers I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit G-l," and respectfully invite your particular attention to same. The laws of the State of Pennsylvania provide that the crime of fornication is a misdemeanor and not a felony, punishable by a fine and not imprisonment; therefore, the sentence inflicted upon these pupils was without warrant or justification in law and in direct violation of the statute of the State of Pennsylvania. Furthermore, Paul Jones was brought to said jail handcuffed like a criminal, aiter he had been held in the school jail for tnree days. He was brought there without a coat or vest and remained in said jail for a period of 70 days, without any change of clothing whatever and without having been visited by any person from the Carlisle Indian School. He was turned in among a lot of hardened criminals, negroes, and jail birds, in a filthy, insanitary jail that is alive with vermin, and made to associate with these criminals for a period of 70 days. The girl, Ethel Williams, fared better, because of the fact that the sheriff's wife, Mrs. Walters, appears to have had a kind heart and took Ethel into her house and let her assist her in doing the housework, so that she was not compelled to remain among the criminals in the jail very much of the time. After the 60 days' term had expired these children were compelled to remain from 7 to 10 days longer in said jail. I inclose herewith three pictures taken in said Carlisle jail on November 27, 1913; one being a picture of Paul Jones; one of Ethel Williams, and one taken of a group of the persons in said county jail at that time. These three pictures I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit H-l." After being taken out of jail, these pupils were sent home. There are numerous other instances where pupils of the Carlisle Indian School have been incarcerated in the countv jail at Carlisle, Pa. On one occasion Principal John Whitwell took a boy pupil from ths school down town and had him arrested, under instructions from Supt. Friedman, and charged him with petit larceny for stealing pies from the bakery. The boy was kept in the county jail for 30 days, as he now reinember.5. 1352 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Another caw lliat came under my observation was that of Charles Kelsey, a Winne- bago Indian boy. about 23 years of age. He is a bright, capable, good boy generally, but about the time of my arrival he procured some whisky from some bootlegger in Carlisle and be< ame under the influence of it, and thereafter had an altercation with Disciplinarian E. E. McKean, in which lie struck McKean over the head with 'a skate, cutting him quite badly. Said Charles Kelsey was placed in the jail on the grounds, and the next day removed to the county jail at Carlisle and a warrant of complaint sworn against him by Disciplinarian McKean, at the request of Supt. Friedman, charging him with assault. . I visited this boy in the county jail and found him to be very penitent tor his act which he had committed while under the influence of liquor; found that he had no bad feeling toward Disciplinarian McKean and was very anxious to get out of jail; said he would apologize publicly before the whole school, sign a pledge, and give his word of honor not to touch another drop of liquor. I felt that this boy was sincere and truly penitent, and believing it might be the turning point m his life for good to give him another chance, I requested that Disciplinarian McKean withdraw his charge and return the boy to the school and let him apologize publicly before the student body and give him another chance. To this request Disciplinarian McKean was heartily in accord and bore no ill will toward the student, knowing that the whole matter had been occasioned by reason of his having been under the influence of liquor. This student was returned to school, did publicly apologize, and I feel that his con- duct henceforth will be exemplary, and that this will be the making of this boy, while if he had been compelled to serve a sentence and expelled, as was the expressed wish of Supt. Friedman, no good would have resulted to him. There have been numerous cases where pupils have been incarcerated in said county jail for trivial offenses, when such cases should have been taken care of by the superintendent at the school, and the pupils should have been properly disciplined there. The jail at the school is sanitary, heated by steam, lighted by electricity, clean, provided with running water and all conveniences, with concrete floors, and in every respect a much more desirable place to confine and discipline students than is the county jail, which is extremely filthy, insanitary, filled with vermin, and the association of these students wi h hardened criminal and nogroes in a filthy, dirty jail is anything but good and elevating, and, in my judgment, should not be resorted to except in extreme cases. Again, it appears that in other instances where boys at the school have gotten drunk and where they have broken into the dormitories in the girls' building and have debauched them, that no such severe punishment was inflicted or meted out to them, thus showing that no justice has been shown in these cases; that a boy would be thrown into the county jail, made to serve a sentence of 30 days, and expelled from school for stealing pies when he was hungry and ill fed at said school, and then they would minimize the offenses of boys who met girls improperly and debauched them. I might here add that this is one of the injustices that has caused the student body to rebel; they felt that some of their members leaders of the boys and girls, were expelled or sent home unjustly because they had criticized the school or taken a lead- ing part in getting up petitions to have said school investigated, while others, guilty of these serious offenses, went unpunished. In consideration of the foregoing, I believe that Supt. Moses Friedman has been guilty of gross injustice to members of the student body by having them placed in the county jail and made to associate with criminals, and in some cases in direct violation of law and the statutes of the State, and I believe that Judge Sanders, who rendered such unjust and unwarranted sentence against Paul Jones and Ethel Wil- liams, in violation of the statutes of his State, is wholly unfit to be dignified with the position of judge. THE DINING ROOM — LACK OP SUFFICIENT FOOD FOB THE PUPILS — LACK OF NECESSARY DISHES, KNIVES, SPOONS, CUPS, ETC. — LACK OF CLEANLINESS IN THE KITCHEN — COM- PLAINT OF THE STUDENT BODY GENERALLY THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE SUFFICIENT QUANTITY OF FOOD, ETC. Shortly after my arrival at Carlisle Indian School, I visited the dining room and investigated conditions there. Subsequently, during my stay at the Carlisle Indian School, I visited the dining room as many as 15 times while the pupils were eating their meals. On my first few visits I noticed that there was a lack of sufficient food foi the Btudents. Many of them complained to me that they did not get enough to eat. This complaint was made to me at various times by as many as 400 pupils of said student body. I made it a point to go from table to table in the dining room to look over conditions and talk with the pupils. The complaint was general that they did c.vkusij*, i>tdian school. I353 not have sufficient food— until I had made two or three visits to said dining room when they commenced telling me that they were now getting more to eat ' „i«t A a msta ; l ? e ! th ? students complained of not having enough broad. One uiSTn? fr T 10 ^ i 4 , Bl ! ceB . would ** P^ced on each table, which was occupied by 10 pupils. A second helping, or plate of bread, was not furnished, but the one plate of bread would have to suffice; consequently, many pupils cot but one slice of bread They held up their plates and called in vain forXKnd helping ol bread lhe complaint was general among the students that they did not have sufficient bread to eat. The students were given one helping of bread, a little oatmeal, which amounted t0 „nve-eighths of an ounce per pupil, served without milk or sugar, a cup of weak coffee (2 pounds to the 100 ration) of an inferior grade, which was colored with a little milk and in which a small but insufficient quantity of sugar was placed For breakfast, generally, beef was served which was cooked by steam in » large kettle *or dinner, generally, bread and gravy, prunes, water, and sometimes a little meat for supper, tea, gravy, bread. This was practically the ration served at the time of my arrival, except that pupils would be given an insufficient quantity of sirup twice a week, gingerbread once a week, and pie on Sunday. Shortly after my arrival they commenced baking more bread and serving more bread to the pupils, so that they could get a second helping. They also furnished them with some rice or beans. Potatoes were served twice a week, generally on Wednesdays and Sundays; butter once a week. When sirup was served twice a week one little pitcher of same would be placed on each table for 10 persons. There was just about enough sirup to supply five or six of the pupils and the balance went without. There were practically no vegetables served; no milk or eggs; butter once a week; no cookies or doughnuts. The pupils began getting more to eat after my arrival, and hundreds of them stated to me that they were so glad that I came, because they were getting more food. On many of the dining-room tables, when I first arrived, there were no spoons. On many tables I noticed a lack of four to six knives out of 10 places set; five or six cups for 10 pupils to drink out of; some of the pupils would have to wait until their next neighbor at the table got through using his knife so that they could borrow same to cut their meat; many times two pupils were drinking out of the same cup. Napkins appear to have been furnished once or twice a week, but were seldom used by the pupils and no attempt was made to teach them table manners. Hundreds of the students told me that many, many times they had gone away from the table hungry, and that they had been compelled to go to restaurants down town and to purchase from the bakery wagons, with the little change they had, pies, cookies, doughnuts, and other food, because they were hungry. Shortly after my arrival and first visits to the dining room, when the students got through their meals and left the dining room there would not be a scrap of anything left to eat on the tables and many went away hungry — so they informed me. In thiB connection I desire to refer to the testimony of 14 of the pupils of said student body who testified before said joint commission, as embraced on pages 26 to 163 of the hear- ings before the joint commission, "Exhibit A," and particularly to the testimony of Alvis Martin, contained on page 57 et al. These pupils represented the student body in their complaints. But 6 acres at said school are used as a school garden, and the vegetables raised therein are mostly for summer use, green stuff furnished, to the tables in the summer time, when the majority of the pupils are absent. About 1,000 bushels of potatoes were raised at said school for the present fiscal year, and by the middle of winter there were no vegetables for use at said school to supplement and assist in the regular ration furnished. Instead of having 6 acres in the garden they should have from 60 to 100 acres; and instead of raising 1,000 bushels of potatoes, raise 10,000 or 12,000 bushels; 8,000 or 10,000 heads of cabbage; several thousand bushels of beets, carrots, rutabagas, onions, turnips, and other vegetables that will keep for winter use. This would help out the ration greatly. The dairy herd should be increased so that the pupils could have milk to drink occasionally and have butter oftener than once a week; likewise the raising of poultry should be encouraged, so that some eggs could be supplied to the pupils. Many pigs are raised at said school, and since October, 1913, 97 hogs from said school have been sold and the proceeds deposited in class 4 funds, instead of these pupils getting some of the pork to eat and having the benefit of the lard for cooking purposes, making doughnuts, etc. The money derived from the sale of these hogs is not used for the table. There is no fruit raised at said Carlisle Indian School; no instructions given to the pupils in horticulture; no small fruits or apple*, which could and should have been 1354 CARLISLE IKDIAX SCHOOL. raised, have ever been provided for said pupils, to say nothing of the teaching and instructions which would be thus afforded. I am firmly convinced that the ration furnished by the Indian Office is insufficient to cover the needs of this school at the present time, because there are no fruits or vegetables, milk, butter, eggs, pork, or lard to assist in said Government rations. The pupils of this school are generally grown-up men and women who are healthy, vigorous, and active in their work and play and require fully as much or more of a ration than does the ordinary person. The former ration of 110 pounds of flour for 100 rations has been reduced to 90 pounds. The beef allowance has been cut down from 110 to 85 pounds per ration, and the ration as a whole is insufficient. There is not enough tea, coffee, or sugar allowed for 100 rations. I noticed that no soup was served to the pupils in the dining room, and observing the vast number of bones from which some meat was being cut for hash, I wondered what was becoming of the soup stock, there being quire a large amount of meat left on the bones, which I learned was being thrown away. This soup stock was not being used because of the lack of soup bowls, and a great deal of nourishment was being wasted which the pupils would have been very glad to have. At times during the serving of meals there is no man-disciplinarian in the dining room. The assistant cook, Mrs. Sadie A. Richey, only receives $360 a year. She is a good, hard-working woman; admitted that the pupils complained often that they did not have enough to eat; were not getting enough bread; she believes that improvements could and should be made in the cooking; that it should be better and more cleanly; that the kettles are not kept clean; that the boys in the kitchen are not taught cleanli- ness, etc. This assistant cook should receive an increase in salary, and I have the honor to so recommend. The daily ration for pupils amounts to: Four-fifth ounce of rolled oats, with no milk or sugar. Seventeen-twentieths pound meat. Nine-tenths pound flour. 1 pint sirup for 12 pupils. 2 pounds coffee for 100. One-seventh pound onions. Three-fourths pound potatoes. One-half ounce butter. When it is considered that they do not even get all of this ration and only get potatoes twice a week, butter once a week, sirup twice a week, onions occasionally, with occa- sionally some beans, rice, dried apples, and without any vegetables to supplement this ration, it can readily be seen that same is not satisfactory. During the training season the athletic boys have a separate cook, separate tables, plenty of good food to eat, which is served in the dining roon with the other boys, and is a further cause for complaint by the many students who are not receiving such good fare. I am firmly convinced that in order to have a happy, contented, well-disciplined lot of pupils they must be better fed, and not go away from the table hungry and disgruntled and not be compelled to use their scant means in the purchase of food or have a school of this character charged with not properly feeding the students, as could now be very properly charged. The large kettles, or stewpots, in which most of the cooking is done in the kitchen were covered with grease and dirt, and the kitchen, also, was lacking in cleanliness. I called the attention of the cook to this latter and had these pots and kettles and the kitchen scoured and cleaned and put in order. I also drew the attention of the dining-room matron, Miss Susan Zeamer, to the lack of sufficient cups, knives, spoons, and dishes, and had her make requisition for the proper number. I also condemned and had carried- from the dining room quite a large number of large porcelain pitchers which were cracked and chipped and were unsightly and insanitary and had them replaced. Mrs. Zeamer admitted that the children often complained that they did not get enough to eat; that they complained they did not get enough bread many times; that they did not have enough fruit; that the gravy did not reach, and that they did not get enough meat. She stated that she went to Mr. Kensler, the quartermaster, for cups, spoons, knives, forks, etc., but that he would not give her enough. She said that she believed that was the cause of bad discipline in the dining room; that many times some of the large boys got up and went out to a store to get their meals. She said the pupils did not even have eggs on Easter Sunday for the past two years; that CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1355 they never got any eggs, cookies, or doughnuts; no ham or bacon. She complains that they need more and better dishes and a better dishwasher. She says the table linen is changed twice a week; there are not enough napkins to go around, and she admitted that the pupils were getting more to eat after my arrival; that they bought lots of food from the bakery because they were hungry. The superintendent, Moses Friedman, rarely ever visited said dining room to ac- quaint himself with these conditions, and his absolute neglect in this connection is inexcusable and indefensible. This is but another instance of his lack of interest in the welfare of the student body; lack of humanity when these poor students were clamoring for bread and enough to eat. I have the honor to recommend that the rations for this school be increased suffi- ciently to properly feed these pupils until such ration may be supplemented with vegetables raised from the farm and garden, as should have heretofore been done. I also recommend that the dairy herd be increased so that the pupils may have milk occasionally and butter oftener than once a week; also that the poultry be increased so that the pupils may have eggs occasionally; and that instead of selling the pigs fattened at said school, at least half of same be used on the tables for the benefit of the pupils, as well as the lard used for cooking purposes. DORMITORIES — LACK OF PROPER MATTRESSES, TOWELS, ETC. — BOYS BREAKING IN GIRLS' DORMITORIES — LACK OP PROPER NIGHT WATCHMEN, ETC. I visited all of the dormitories and made a careful inspection of every room and bed in said dormitories. These dormitorv buildings are cut up into small rooms in which there are three or four single beds, "occupied by three and four students. These are old single beds without any bedsprings, but, instead, iron slats. Over the iron slats were placed mat- tresses, the majority of which had been in use three to six years and were worn down so they were about an inch in thickness and hard almost as the floor. These mattresses placed over the iron slats made a very hard bed, indeed , and there was great necessity for doubling up on these old mattresses or putting new mattresses over the old ones, or entirely condemning the old ones. I had quite a number of old mattresses con- demned and replaced with 80 new ones from the commissary, being all the mattresses which were on hand. There is a great necessity for 250 to 350 new mattresses to fix up In a few instances complaint was made by some of the pupils that they did not have sufficient blankets or covering. The bed linen is changed one sheet a week, one new sheet being furnished and the top sheet being placed on the bottom for the second week; one change of pillow slips a week; and the pupils have been furnished with one towel a week, which had to suffice for their bathing as well as other use— this in the face of the fact that there are a large number of bath towels in the quarter- master's department which could have been had by making proper requisition I respectfully submit that one towel a week is not sufficient tor these pupils, and that there should be a complete change of bed linen once a week at least. - Some of the rooms in the dormitory buildings were kept none too neat or clean. This was especially true in the girls' dormitory building. . I desire to call particular attention to the lack ol proper fire escapes on the girls dormitory building. While there is an opening or place fixed to slide down on poles on the porches from the third to the second stories, there is no opportunity of escape from the second floor of said building except by the stairways, which, m case of fire would become congested and undoubtedly a large loss of life occur. 1 believe that special provision should be made to provide proper fire escapes for this bailing It may be that the reason this has not been done heretofore has been because of the opportunity it might afford the boys to enter the girls' dormitory building. P fn this connection I desire to say that it is my best judgment ^ a couple o com- petent white men should be provided as night watchmen at f jaid , choc ,1, that thi , is one of the crving needs of said institution; that the lack ot having had such propei watchmen oXfse grounds has been the cause of much immorality, lack of discipline, h °^StCe g % l ontr^l'^n policed at night with a detail of the boy pupUs Such g^rif were changed two' or three times each night, and these stu- Imt^uarffl would allow their friends to go and come at their pleasure Thus it SJld do thines which could not obtain under a proper guard of night watch- men who would enforce strict discipline. 1356 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Ill the boys dormitories 1 noticed the knobs off a great many of the doors; many of the rooms were untidy; the boys said they bathed whenever they saw fit; there was no one to enforce their bathing once a week or ofteuer; that they were fur- nished with one towel a week and one sheet changed on each bed. Some of the bovs complained they did not have enough blankets. jn the small boys' dormitory four boys generally occupied a room, and the stove to heat the water' in the tank for bathing was too small to provide sufficient hot water for bathing purposes during the winter months. I desire also to call attention to the fact that for the past two yeare none of the suits of clothing from the small boys' dormitory has been brought to the tailor shop or sewing room' for cleaning or repairing. There was no one to see to the gathering up of this clothing or having it properly repaired, and I am reliably informed that many good suits have been condemned and sold as old rags. This great waste in clothing should be stopped and the pupils' clothing should be repaired and cleaned. This lack of proper mattresses for the beds, lack of proper changes of bed linen, the use of one towel a week, lack of having the boys' suits cleaned and repaired, lack of proper fire escapes on the girls' dormitories, and the lack of proper night watchmen on the grounds is but another instance of neglect and indifference on the part of Supt. Friedman to look after the proper conduct and management of such school. AGRICULTURE, OR RATHER LACK OF AGRICULTURAL TRAINING, DAIRYING, GARDENINGS- POULTRY RAISING, HORTICULTURE, ETC. The Carlisle Indian School is supplied with two farms; one containing about 160 acres and the other about 110 acres; also a garden tract of 6 or 7 acres. William B. Gray, one of the farmers, has been employed at said school for about 20 years. Last year he had planted on the farm he has charge of, 48 acres of wheat 28 acres of corn; 21 acres of oats; 9J acres of potatoes. The wheat raised, 973 bushels, was sold; the corn and oats were used, or are on hand; a little over 1,100 bushels of potatoes were raised, of which he is keeping 120 bushels for seed, leaving about 1,000 bushels for the school. He raised 195 chickens and has 90 on hand, having killed 160 for Christmas dinner. He worked 4 horses and 4 mules. He now has a detail of 2 boys in the morning and 1 in the afternoon. In the summer time he needs 9 to 12 boys, especially at harvest time, but he is handicapped, he says, because they do not send him enough boys. During the summer season he does not have enough boys detailed to properly do the work. The same boys are not generally sent long enough to learn anything. Usually he has sent boys who have been failures in the shops and they are sent out to work on the farm as a kind of punishment. He says there is not enough interest taken in farming; that it is a secondary consideration; that he could teach a large number of boys improved methods and instruct and help them if he had a proper detail, but they will not send them to him. He states that in October, 1913, an Indian boy by the name of Anthony Spottedhorse attacked him and he struck him with a club and broke his arm. The other farm, containing about 110 acres, is in charge of Olive K. Ballard, who is a recent arrival, having only been in charge of said farm for about four months. He states that when he took charge of the farm all of the crops for the year 1913 had been harvested, excepting a few potatoes. On this farm the hogs are raised. At the present time there are 113 hogs and pigs, 51 of which are small pigs; 46 of them are shoats. Since October, 87 hogs have been sold. About four boys have been detailed to him each half day. On said farm they have been raising corn, wheat, alfalfa, timothy, and a few potatoes. Since he has been here he has never had any instructions from Supt. Friedman. He was advised by Mr. Kensler, the quartermaster, that he was running the farm and to do what he considered best and planned what he thought was best on the farm. There are about 150 tons of silo on the place. The dairyman lives on this farm, also. Mr. W. J. Ryan is the dairyman. He came to said school in September, 1913, and claims that he was unjustly treated by Supt. Friedman three days after he arrived, and was reprimanded by him for not getting more milk from the cows. He states that he was not furnished with a sufficient detail of boys to do the work, and that the boys sent to him on detail were those sent for punishment and discipline. He com- plains that the boys have broken into the milk house and taken the cream and milk because proper locks have not been furnished to him. February 4, 1914, Dairyman W. J. Ryan addressed a letter to me detailing conditions and making complaint, and inclosing two dairy reports; one for the week ending August 27, and the other for the week ending September 3, 1909, said dairy reports showing that Supt. Friedman had received milk and butter from the dairy. CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1357 This letter, with reports attached, I inclose for your information and mark "Exhibit George Abrams ia the florist, having been employed in said school for about 15 months last past. He states he has about 6 acres in garden; works five and six boys each half day, could work more to a good advantage, but in the summer time when he wants them he can not get them. They are all out working. He has to get girls to pick peas, beans, etc. He states he should have ten times as large a garden and raise much more for the winter months, such as cabbage, beets, turnips, carrots and other vegetables; that all the vegetables raised are now gone. He states that a large garden would furnish instructions for a large number of boys, and that those boy pupils are needed here for gardening, farming, and instructions, as bad or worse than they are needed by the farmers where they go. He could use 30 to 50 here and give them in- structions in gardening; he could also raise small fruits, apples, pears, strawberries, raspberries, etc. He says that in the summer months he does not have a sufficient detail of boys to do the work on the grounds in a proper manner. Up to a few years ago there appears to have been a department at said school de- voted to instructions along agricultural pursuits, but same appears to have been abandoned some two or three years ago, and no instructions are now given the boys as to agriculture. It is the opinion of the gardener, both farmers, and the dairyman that the boys detailed to the farms, gardens, and dairy have been made to feel that they were being punished and disciplined ; that a sufficient detail has not been given them to do their work in a proper manner, to say nothing of giving the boys proper instruc- tions; that during the summer months when they need help, they do not have a suffi- cient detail of boys for even the crops which they have been raising, such as wheat, oats, corn, etc. Intensified farming should be carried out and instructions along agricultural lines should be given the boy students, and they should be made to know and to feel that farming is an honorable employment. They should be taught that it is of first impor- tance to them to understand agriculture along its various lines. I have the honor to recommend that such teaching be given. Most of these boy students have allotments and farms at home and the majority of them will have to depend on farming for a livelihood. Thus, they should be given instructions in agriculture, stock raising, dairying, gardening, etc., which has been almost wholly neglected at this school. As heretofore stated, 60 to 100 acres should be used for a garden, and at least 50 boys be given instructions and employment in such garden, and a large amount of vege- tables be raised for the benefit of the school. Intensified farming and the raising of crops other than wheat, oats, corn, rye, etc., should be carried on on these farms, and the better portions should be selected for the good gardening. Horticulture should be encouraged, fruit trees and small fruits set out, and the boys given instructions and encouragement along these lines also. Same is true as to the dairymen. The herds should be increased and an interest created among the boy students in farming, garden- ing, dairying, stock raising, horticulture, poultry raising, etc. Instead of these boys being sent out under the outing system of Carlisle at a nominal wage, usually from $12 to $15 a month, they should be employed and instructed along- agricultural lines and gardening at said school, when they have come there for that purpose. These farmers who employ these outing students generally are not philanthropists, and their whole idea is to get these boys to work for them because of the cheap wages paid them, which generally amounts to about one-half what they would have to pay a white man for the same work. If these farms were divided up into 5 or 10 acre tracts and a sufficient detail of boys put in charge of each small portion and they be encouraged by giving them one-third of the value of the crop raised , it would create an interest in agriculture and each detail would strive to outdo the other, which would result in good work and instructions in intensified farming, and the two-thirds which the school would obtain as the result of such work would undoubtedly greatly exceed the proceeds which have heretofore been obtained from said farm. At the same time it would encourage the students and give them something to work for. This method has been successfully employed elsewhere and could be here. . This lack of interest and almost absolute neglect on the part of Supt. Moses Iried- man along agricultural lines, dairying, and stock raising is but another illustration of his utter disregard of the proper teaching of these pupils, and shows his incapacity and failure to properly instruct these Indian pupils along proper lines. In his annual reports he lays special stress on instructions which he gives to students in agriculture He says they are given most practical and comprehensive training, etc., "which is absolutely disproven by the statements of the farmers, gardeners, dairy- men, and pupils themselves. 135 b CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. ACADEMIC WORK — STUDENT BODY — PRINCIPAL OF SCHOOL — GENERAL CONDITIONS. The total number of pupils enrolled at said school is 816, of which number 492 are boys and 324 girls. The number of outing pupils is 160, of which 73 are boys and 87 are girls. The number of deserters at present, 1 boy; number on leave, 7; 6 boys and 1 girl; number enrolled with less than one-half Indian blood, 133; number enrolled with less than one-fourth Indian blood, 13; number of graduates in attendance, 6, being 4 boys and 2 girls; number of pupils who have attended public school prior to coming to Carlisle, 234; number of pupils who have public school facilities at home, 245; number of pupils who live over 2 miles from public schools, from the present list, 225. Twelve of the 18 boys and girla who will graduate next year with public school facilities at home, are: Edward Morrin, William Thayer, Kenneth King, Hiram Chase, Arnold Wilkey, Lilian Walker, Minnie Charles, Minnie O'Neill, Bessie Gilland, Nettie Kingsley, Naomi Greenskey, and Eva Williams. Fifteen of the 18 boys and girls who will graduate this year have public-school facilities at their homes. Out of the 13 pupils enrolled at said school who have less than one-fourth Indian blood, two have been authorized for enrollment by the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, as follows: May Beck, Cherokee, one-eighth Indian b'ood; Addie Hoderman, Assiniboine, one-eighth Indian blood. These students whose names are listed below were transferred to Carlisle by agencies and school superintendents without any specific authority: Oliver Gregory, one-sixth Chippewa, 1911; Colder Lamoreaux, one-eighth Sioux, 1911; Miguel Little, one-eighth Apache. 1010; Lewis Little, one-eighth Apache, 1910; Lewis Palin, one-eighth Flat- head, 1910; Susie Lacy, Chippewa, 1911; Anna Roulette, one-eighth Chippewa, 1907; John Bouchard, one-eighth Kootenai, 1911: Ella Cueller, one-eighth Shawnee, 1913; Anna Loren, one-eighth Mohawk (New York State), 1909; Delia Edwards, one-eighth Onondaga (New York State;, 1909. From the foregoing, it will appear that 245 of the present pupils enrolled at Carlisle have public school facilities at home, and that there are at present 234 pupils in said school who have attended public schools prior to going to Carlisle. In many instances pupils enrolled there have been in attendance at public schools in towns and rural districts for several years. In a good many cases these pupils are the children of well- to-do mixed breeds, who have made their homes in towns and cities adjoining reser- vations, and in many instances their fathers are successful business men and ranchers, with public-school facilities at their homes. The question arises, why then should these pupils be taken from their homes where public-school facilities are readily obtainable, and from parents who are well capable of caring for them, brought to Carlisle at an expense to the Government, and, in a large number of cases, farmed out under the outing system to farmers and housewives and there given public-school facilities for a period of 75 or 100 days a year that are probably no better in the majority of instances than the pupils have at their homes? In response to my request, the principal teacher, Mr. John Whitwell, furnished me with a list of students who have been expelled or dropped from the rolls, showing within a short period that 22 pupils have been expelled and quite a few others sent home or dropped from the rolls. This list shows that the records have been falsified in many instances. The report of Mr. John Whitwell shows how this was done I inclose said data herewith for your information, which I mark "Exhibit Jl." The number of pupils under 14 years of age who are now enrolled at said school are 18, bemg 13 girls and 5 boys. Inspector McLaughlin's report on the Carlisle School, dated November 26, 1910, shows that 91 deserters were carried on the pupils' roll of said school and given credit lor the full time and attendance, although they had been absent from the school for periods ranging from two months to as long as two and one-half years Inbupt. Inedman's letter, dated January 23, 1911, he states: \\ e have aimed constantly, and by every possible effort, to keep our rolls clean and have them based on records." He also stated in said letter: ''There are being dropped to-day the names of 101 students, including all deserters, which reduces our attendance to 943," etc. In February, 1911, only about a month after this office had given instructions to bupt. Friedman to drop deserters who had been absent from the school 30 days, Supervisor Charles F. Pierce made a careful examination of the attendance records pi said school and found that 186 pupils who were marked as being "on leave" and runners were carried on the attendance reports and given credit for full time and CARLISLE INDIAN SCflOGi. 1359 attendance, although they had been absent during periods ranging from a few months in length to as long as five years. This report of Supervisor Pierce shows that credit was taken for approximately 22,000 days' attendance, not a single day of which had actually been earned. In other words, the attendance rolls have been padded to the amount of over 22,000 days. The normal teacher, Mrs. L'ydia Kaup, stated to me that' the superintendent had not encouraged the employees, but had hindered the progress of the academic work. She stated that he did not use good judgment and that the scholars received no indi- vidual attention; that she had over 100 pupils in her schoolroom and could not do justice to them; that the pupils were not being treated fairly; that the dicipline was poor and too lax, and not up to the standard of what it used to be; that no support had been received in the academic department; that the employees had no respect for the superintendent and did not fear him; that athletic sports, receptions, dances, etc., interfere with the academic work and unfitted the pupils for such work. Mrs. Kaup also gave testimony before the joint congressional committee, which is contained on page 323, to which attention is invited. Mrs. Emma O. Lovewell, teacher, stated to me that there was very much dissatis- faction among the pupils; that the dicipline was very bad; that the employees were not encouraged, and that the academic work received no encouragement o; support; that the pupils dislike the superintendent very much; that his action in expelling Sylvia Moon and other pupils greatly angered the student body; that the superin- tendent is unjust to employees and pupils. She stated that he had been insulting to her and abused her shamefully. She does not approve of putting the pupils in the county jail. She states that many pupils have complained to her that they were hungry and did not get enough to eat; that there never was enough bread; that Supt. Friedman had shown favoritism toward employees; that he had lost all prestige among the pupils and the best employees; that pupils afflicted with trachoma had been sent as outing pupils to various homes. Mrs. Lovewell also testified before the joint commission. See her testimony at page 470. Miss Hattie M. McDowell, teacher, stated to me that the employees of the school felt that Supt. Friedman had not dealt justly with them or with the pupils; that he had not the welfare of the students at heart; that he had no interest in the school, pupils, or employees; that he is just busy advertising himself and does nothing for the general good of the school. She stated that if it had not been for Principal Whitwell the school could not have stood up so long. The school and academic work is of secondary importance. Everything is done for show and to make a good- appearance. The band, football, commencement exercises, and improvements of the buildings are the things which have received consideration and attention, and the essential things have been neglected; total neglect in the agricultural depart- ment and gross misrepresentation in the catalogues and advertisements sent out by Baid school; that the pupils were all up in arms against the superintendent; that they had complained to her repeatedly that they did not get enough to eat; that Principal Whitwell had been shamefully treated. Miss McDowell also testified before the joint committee. See her testimony at Pa Mrs Bertha D Canfield, seamstress, who has been at said school for 14 years, and who is a good woman and good employee, says: " Conditions at this school are deplor- able as to morality and discipline, the lowest now it has ever been ; that every- thing has been done to advertise the superintendent and to beautify the grounds; that the failure of the superintendent to cooperate with the former matron, Miss Gaither resulted disastrously, in sacrificing the morals of the school and mining the girls; that the superintendent neglects the human side, the talking to pupils and leading them; that m less than a year 16 girls have been expelled, generally for immorality; that the superintendent has been unjust and has expelled pupils without cause, and named Sylvia Moon as one. She states that he has not the love, respect or confidence of the pupils; that the superintendent turned one : Myrtle Sullivan loose in Harrisburg without any money or protection, a girl about ,18 years of age, that he tells employfea to get out of his office If they do not like it; that he will not cooperate with Tim for the lood of the school. She speaks of unjust treatment to Genevieve Evaux and Elizabeth Lavata. She believes the school should help the girls and pupUs instead o Sing them out to destruction; that she knows of one instance E the former matron Miss Gaither, was ordered to the. gymnasium leaving the ^auarterTaTl Tlone and that, as a result, two boys got in and spent the evening with tie gMs- that the superintendent has sent out girls like Agnes Jacobs with the band bovB^-an immoral girl who was unfit to represent the school; that girls have been rSbKX ™ pageants and visiting cities with the band and football team. She 1360 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. speaks -if the lack of discipline at l.lie hospital; that the conditions there: were very deplorable; that one girl was mined there; that the boys were protected while the girls were not; that the moral conditions of said school are very bad; lots or drinking; students almost in open rebellion, complaining that they do not get enough to eat; that if conditions are not rectified soon, something desperate will likely happen. Mrs. Canlield states that she has detailed 53 girls in the morning and 41 girls in the afternoon in her department and is doing a good work. She says that none of the suits in the small boys dormitory have been mended for the past two years; that her department makes the white shirts, nightshirts, and underwear, which she believes should be purchased. Mrs. Canfield also gave testimony before the joint commis- sion; see same at page 186. Mary Yoos is an assistant seamstress; salary ijWIQ per annum. She has a detail of about 1'5 girls in the morning and 12 girls in the afternoon. She states that the girls detailed to her are very apt and are making good progress. This seamstress has had no promotion in four years and is desirous of getting a transfer so that she may get more salary. Miss Alice Hecknan, assistant, seamstress, is filling a temporary position. She has charge of the mending department, and about 18 girls are detailed to her each half day. She, like the other employees, states that the superintendent never talks to her, gives her any instructions, talks about the girls or their work, or takes any interest in them. Miss Elizabeth Searight, an assistant seamstress, who is receiving $400 per annum, has been at said school for 12 years and has received no promotion or increase in salary for the past five years. Her home is in the town of Carlisle. I have the honor to recommend that her salary be increased. She is a good, competent, faithful employee. Koy L.Mann, teacher, says there is a great lack of discipline; that the discipline at the athletic building is bad; that there has been much unjust treatment of the boy students- speaks of one who was locked' up for writing to his parents; that pupils are allowed to go out without guard passes; that there is lack of proper night watchmen; that the boy students are very bitter against the superintendent; that they have hissed him and called him "Old Jew"; told him to get out when he was visiting the classrooms; says he is unjust to the boys; that the whole school is in an uprising and open re- bellion. Miss Margaret M. Sweeney, teacher, says that she lias been treated by the superin- tendent with extreme contempt in her schoolroom in the presence of students; that the superintendent has charged her with going away from the grounds without leave, which is untrue; failed to-send her letter of explanation to the commissioner, and sent in charges against her. She states that Bandmaster Stauffer is instrumental in making trouble at the school; that he has great influence with Superintendent Friedman, which is bad for the school; that the student body dislike the superintendent very much; that he is unjust and unkind to the students and to certain employees; that he shows favoritism; that he was very unjust to the former matron, Miss Gaither; that morals are bad at the school; the students hiss the superintendent; that a few weeks ago the students broke into the girls' quarters again; that the superintendent has been very unjust to Principal Whitwell, who is a good, honest man, and has the respect of all the pupils of the school; that the boys at the school are getting desperate; some- thing must be done; that if this continues for another month there must be an out- break. "Your coming at this time is a God send." Miss Sweeney also appeared before the joint commission and gave testimony. See same at page 492. Miss Sweeney also made affidavit before mo with relation to her taking leave at one time, wherein she claimed she was unjustly treated by Superintendent Friedman. I transmit this affidavit for your information, and draw your attention to same, marking it "Exhibit Kl." John Whitwell, principal teacher, states that all academic and industrial work is made subservient to athletics and football, and that the boys are taken out of the school- room and shops for this purpose; that the teachers have the girls, but not many of the boyB, at times; that special privileges have been granted to the football players and that this is bad for the discipline of the school; that certain boys have been put on the students' roll just to play football; that there is no agricultural department now, it having been abolished; that the department of telegraphy has been abolished, also the harness-making department; that Coach Warner and Bandmaster Stauffer have been influencing the superintendent; that additional salaries have been paid to Government employees out of the athletic fund; that debates are not encouraged or held with outside schools; that attention is given to training the body in athletics, but not the mind; that not all football players are bona fide students; that the training table in the dining room causes bad feeling; that partiality has been shown; that on CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1361 one occasion an assistant quartermaster, named Stewart, a white man, was drunk on the grounds; that nothing was done to him; that Gus Welsh and other football boya have been drunk without being disciplined or reprimanded; that there are no proper night watchmen at the school; that injustice is being done to the pupils and certain employees; that there is no interest taken on the part of Superintendent Friedman in the individual pupil; no human side; no efforts made to teach the boys trades; that the corporal punis hm ent of the students is bad, as is also the placing of pupils in the county jail; that the boys are allowed to go down town without their uniforms on, and by reason of some of them being nearly white they can get liquor without question; that certain of the school reports have been falsified; that there is lack of proper food and that the pupils complain of not getting enough to eat; that there is lack of interest in the schoolroom work; lack of interest in the employees, as well as the individual pupils; that a great injustice was done to a former matron, Miss Gaither; that corporal . punishment should be abolished; that the outing system has been overdone, and that Eupils have been sent home unjustly, etc.; that the failure to give instructions to the oys in agriculture, farming, dairying, etc., is to be deplored; that the work on the majority of the buildings constructed on the grounds has been done by outside mechan- ics, and the training of the school boys, who should have received such instruction, has been neglected, etc. Mr. Whitwell also testified before the joint congressional committee. See his testimony, pages 194 to 250, inclusive. It is my best judgment that pupils who have the advantages of good public schools at home should not be enrolled at Carlisle or other boarding schools, but that the Indian pupils who do not have the advantages at home should be given such opportunity. I am convinced that Mr. John Whitwell, principal, is a good, honest, conscientious, efficient employee. He is loved by the pupils and has the respect and confidence of practically all of the employees. I believe it to be a fact that his influence at the school has been exceptionally good and that conditions are now much better there than they otherwise would have been if it had not been for his presence. He has the best interests of the student body and the school at heart. It is true that he was insubor- dinate in a slight degree to Supt. Friedman, who aggravated him to such an extent, after months of persistent fault-finding and nagging, that he lost his temper and called him a "dirty skunk." I do not approve of insubordination or of this statement on the part of Mr. Whitwell, but, under all circumstances and conditions, I believe his offense should be condoned and excused with a reprimand. I believe it to be in the best interests of the Carlisle School and the Government service that he be retained there and continue the good work in which he has been engaged, and I have the honor to so recommend Generally, I believe the teachers to be competent and painstaking, and with proper influence and encouragement will perform a good service. One exception I believe to be Miss Adelaide B. Reichel, teacher, who, I am advised, is flighty and frivolous, and whose influence at said school is not good. INDUSTRIAL TRADES, SHOP WORK, ETC. Carpenter.— There are two carpenters at said school, Mr. H. Gardner and Mr. John A. Mr Gardner has been in the service at Carlisle for about 30 years. He states that instead of his taking charge of the buildings, with Mr. Herr, the other carpenter, and constructing them and working the Indian boys outside carpenters have been em- ployed on practically all of this work of the new buildings and all large repairs. He states that most all of the old buildings on the ground were construe ted by . him viz, the office and other buildings; that the boys' instructions consist moe jfly + of ■ ^°P work making fu^iture, sash, doors, etc. ; that the outside buildings are constructed lately by outsiders; that the discipline of the school is worse than i ever has been,^ ^ good deal of drinking among the boys; that the detail of boys is not surhcientl> large and they have not been detailed for ong enough periods for many of them to learn the trade; tlat the feelfng Zj !&e boy fupfls toward the superintendent is very bad ; that they have hooted him and called him names. , ,. ,.. „,, f Carpenter John Herr states that he has been employee, at the Carlisle bchooi tor aborMO Tears Ihat he had charge of the carf entry work under Supts Pratt and Mercer and noW under Supt. Friedman; that the detail of boys us now 41-19 in the forenoon andTin the afternoon; out of that number possibly 8 or 9 migh t tay and learn the trade. Generally, it takes three years to learn the . *»d^^ ^ o^y 35601— pt 11—14 26 1362 CARLISLE ISDIAX SCHOOL. the building i« bi iiig done; that the construction work on the new buildings has been largely done by outside men, such as carpenters, bricklayers, plumbers, etc.; that the athletic building was built entirely by contract: "We carpenters, with the boys, do only the repair work, and the little work. Thousands of dollar" have been paid out for help, which work should have been done by the pupils here and they should have received that training. When we need the boys in the shops they are gone. In the winter we have them when we do not want them. Last summer we had only six boys on the detail, just when I needed them most and they should be given the advantages and instructions. In the shop we make all the furniture work, such as tables, etc. The superintendent grants special privileges We shop men have no benefits. Some of the employees here have house rent, heat, and light furnished them . I have none or the other tradesmen have none . We have to pay rent, fuel, and light. The percentage of boys who learn the trade is very small indeed. No interest on the part of the superintendent seems to be manifested toward the individual students. The detail of the boys is made by the disciplinarian without regard to the boys and without keeping the same detail so that the boys can learn the trade . ' ' Painter.— Mr. C. H. Cams, the painter, has been employed at said school for 13 years past. He has now a detail of 12 boys, each a half day. He states that the boys do not stay long enough generally to learn their trade. He has only three boys now, who have been with him for two years. They generally stay only one season, when a boy ought to stay three or four years to learn his trade, working only the half day; that in the past six years they have not had more than six boys to learn the trade and to stick to it and work at it out of the detail of over 180 boys; that they keep changing the details and putting the boys in other places, in the kitchen, on the night watch, on the farms, etc. No one can learn a trade the way the disciplinarian makes up the details of the boys without regard to their learning the trades; that Supt. Friedman never talks with him as to the details or discusses the trades for the boys or appears to take any interest in their welfare ; that he has charge of the carriage painting and upholstery; that there is a great demand for good carriage and automobile painters, but these boys are being given no o importunity to learn the trade. Tailor. — W. M. Nonnant, whose salary is $900 per annum, has been at said Carlisle Indian School for about 12 years. He is a good, competent tailor, and interested in his work; says that during the winter months he has a detail of about 15 boys, on an average of seven to nine each half day, and in the summer months he does not have half that many; sometimes during the summer months he only has one or two boys. As a rule only 3 or 4 boys out of 15 or 20 stay long enough to learn the trade; some boys are detailed to him only a few months; that certain boys have been detailed to him just a few months before they knew their school term had expired and they were to go home; in the summer months the boys detailed to his shop go on outing in the coun- try and work on farm or attend to horses, wash dishes, wait on the table, etc. ; just now he has a boy in the shop named Gilbert, who has been at said school for three years; he is just detailed to him and has never been in a shop before, and he will soon have to go home as his term expires; that the boys should stay at least three years in the shop to learn the trade; that the work in the shop is making uniforms; never has enough boys to do the work. 'I could work now, at least, 40 boys — 20 or more in a shift. We are now getting coatmakers down town because we have not enough help in the shop. This work should be done here. We could also make the work for other schools. The boys should be encouraged and paid a little money during the summer months, rather than send them out on farms on outings. There is no repairing done on the clothes and there is at least one-fourth more clothing used there than is necessary. There seems to be no one to look after the clothing of the boys. Good clothing h* been con- demned and sold as rags. This great waste should be stopped. ' ' Tinsmith shop.— Robert B. George is the tinner. He has been employed at said school for about three years and receives only $600 per annum; does not have quarters furnished on the grounds, but has to live down town and pay car fare, pay rent, fuel, and light; he asks the superintendent for quarters, but he tells him he does not have any for industrial trades, but when he entered the service he was of the opinion that quarters would be furnished him, with heat and light. He complains that some people who live on the grounds and are not Government employees are so provided (meaning Coach Warner). His present detail consists of 12 large boys and 4 small boys— 7 in the forenoon and 9 in the afternoon; they change the detail of the boys too often; most of the boys who were in the shops last year are now on the farm; the large majority of them do not stay long enough to learn the trade; the boys should remain in the shop at least three years. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1363 "I have no boys that have been here two years and have only two in the shop who Z r nf 6 tl T laSt r a [V- he T 6tails are f " rnished b y *e disciplinarian and are changed too often. In a short time I suppose these boys will go into the country again. They do not stay and learn the trade and they do not have tools for each boy. I take pains in instructing the boys and explaining the use of the tools and all work to them The boys have complained to me that they do not get enough to eat. They speak very badly of the superintendent. They do not like him. They have no respect for him 1 believe 1 should receive an increase in salary." _ I am of the same opinion, that this tinner, Robert B. George, should have his salary increased, and so recommend. ' Carriage maker.— Mr. Martin L. Lau is the carriage maker. He has been employed at said school for nine years and is receiving a salary of $800 per annum. He states the superintendent does not cooperate with the employees; that he will not stand by what he says; that he tells you to do something and then before you can do it, changes mind; is not fair and honorable with the employees; shows favoritism, especially toward Bandmaster Stauffer; that the superintendent gives him no quarters on the ground, but gives to persons not in the Government employ house rent, heat, and light (meaning Coach Warner); also increases the wages of his pets. "The discipline here at the school is much worse than formerly. I have a detail of 9 boys in the forenoon and 12 in the afternoon. The boys generally do not stay long enough to learn the trade. They change the details and take them out to do outside work. The athletic boys won't work. Those who are detailed at the shops leave at half past 3 or 4 for track work. The percentage who stay in the shop to learn the trade is very small. Supt. Friedman sent Dubries Skenendore, a good boy, away from the school. My brother has him down town now, employed, learning a trade. The students are all disgruntled as to the superintendent. He does not treat them fairly or properly. They claim they do not get enough to eat, and that asking for the second helping does no good. A good superintendent who will be in harmony and accord with the employees and pupils is what is needed. " Blacksmith. — William C. Shambaugh, the blacksmith, is a capable, competent work- man, receiving 1800 per annum. He has 13 boys detailed to him every half day. Generally but few of the boys remain long enough to learn the trade. The details are changed too often and are made by the disciplinarian. The superintendent takes no interest in the boys or in the details, or in their learning their trade. The boys com- plain of Supt. Friedman; they say they do not get enough to eat; they are very much disgruntled; the athletic boys have a special cook and special table and food; this also makes other boys feel badly. "I am not given quarters on the ground in which to live, but the coach for football is, and is not a Government employee. Once when I took leave due me, the super- intendent took it out of my salary, and once he refused me leave to attend the funeral of my sister's child. When quarters were available here at the school, I asked for them but he would not give them to me. I think the following industrial teachers are entitled to quarters, heat, and light, the same as other employees. These are the ones who do not have them: Mr. Lau, wagon maker; Mr. Boltz, shoemaker; Mr. George, tinner; Mr. Cams, painter; Mr. Gardner, carpenter, and Wm. C. Shambaugh, black- smith. Mr. Kensler, the quartermaster, curses very much in the presence of the boys. " Bakery. — Raymond Reneker is the baker. He is a competent man and bakes good bread. On Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday of each week he bakes about 1,000 loaves of bread. On Thursday and Friday, about 1,600 loaves each day; a total of about 6,200 loaves a week, which averages about five barrels of flour each day. Since about October he has had 10 boys detailed to assist him, 5 in the forenoon and 5 in the afternoon. Some of the boys on his detail can do the baking. Mr. Kensler, the quartermaster, told him he was short on flour. " I have made an increase in bread of about 15 loaves for each meal, or about 50 a day, since you came here. I did so at the request of the dining room matron, Mrs. - Zeamer, who told me that you had complained that the boys were not getting enough to eat. Quartermaster Kensler told me he could not get any satisfaction from the superintendent; did not know what to do. Saturday I baked about 160 pies for Sunday dinner, generally make them out of raisins, apples, peaches, etc. I have no eggs furnished for cakes on holidays, but very little lard and very little sugar. " This bakery was badly in need of a bread room, which could be constructed by utting in shelving and a door. There is also need of six steel racks for proofing bread, which should be 2 feet wide, 6 feet long, 6 feet high, with 10 shelves on rollers. There was also great need of two trucks, each about 6 feet long, 2\ feet wide, placed on rollers, to hold bread pans and for use in the bakery. There was also need of wash- bowls and a wash and dressing room, a place fixed for the boys and baker. I suggested 1364: CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. to the quartermaster that these repairs be promptly made, and the same were being done prior to my leaving the grounds. This baker, Ramond Reneker, has a family, is a very competent baker and faithful employee, and he can not well live on his present salary of 5600 per annum. I recommend that the same be increased. Shotmah r shop.— Mi. John Boltz is the shoemaker, and is a very faithful and compe- tent employee. He has a del ail of about nine boys each forenoon and afternoon. He has had some of those detailed for six or seven months for the past two years. The work in said shop consists mostly of repairing shoes, but he makes about 200 pairs of new shoes a year. The harness shop has been abolished and he does what little harness repairing is needed. He states he could work a larger detail and make shoes which would be better for the pupils than those which are purchased; that this would afford instructions to a large number of pupils and be a saving to the Government; that his ■detail is made bv the disciplinarian and no attention given by the superintendent to the individual teaching of the boys; that his salary is SO'iO per annum and he has had no increase since there, although he was promised it for doing extra harness- maker's work; he has heard the boys complain that they did not get enough to eat. Masonry. — Harry B. Lamason is the mason. His salary is $750 per annum. He has detailed at times 18 or 20 boys, and again has none. The details are changed so often that he can not teach many of the boys the trade or give them instructions; says he could handle 50 boys; states that Supt." Friedman takes no interest in the welfare of these boys or the trades; that the details are made by the disciplinarian, and no attention whatever is paid to the keeping of boys long enough to learn the trade; that the work in the cottages and school buildings is done by outside persons and paid for, when the pupils should have the benefit of such work. Laundry. — Miss Ella Albert is the laundress. She has been employed at said Car- lisle Indian School for about 16 years. She has two assistants, Mrs. Ida Boger and Mary Nixon, the latter a colored woman. She has a detail of about 20 girls each half day, and about five boys. She states that the discipline of the girls is good and that some complaints have been made as to the superintendent. The equipment of the laundry is good and the work in connection therewith is good. It is oi.e of the best conducted institutions on the place. Engineering. — Harry F. Weber is the engineer. He has been employed at the Carlisle Indian School for about 21 years. His present compensation is $1,100 per annum. He looks after the general repairs in plumbing, steam fitting, boilers, laun- dry, machinery of all kinds, makes all repairs, looks after the electric lights, etc. He states that it is cheaper to purchase electric power than for them to make it; that the boiler capacity is now barely sufficient for heating all the buildings; all the power at said school is electric power; that his detail runs from 9 to 14 boys every half day; the detail made to him at times is not satisfactory. Two boys are detailed to fire at night. He states that at times it is hard to get material to make the necessary repairs; that Supt. Friedman generally ignores him, passes him by and will not speak to him. The superintendent takes no interest in the boys. " I am instructing the boys all that I can. They generally give me the same detail, and I have had some boys two and three years. The superintendent never says any- thing or gives any instructions as to anything. I am supposed to smell it. The discipline of the school is very bad. It is better just now that you are here. The boys came home all hours of the night until you came. The boys dislike the super- intendent very much. I have never heard aboy say a good word of him. I believe Principal Whitwell is an honest and worthy man. "He has been persecuted by Mr. Friedman because he is supposed to have given information to Mr. Pearis. Athletics are given first consideration, and professional athletics are not good for the students. These athletic boys are unable to work, or won't. The school and industrial teaching is made a secondary consideration to athletics and football. In my judgment, instruction in gardening, dairying, school, academic, and industrial work should come first." Print shop.— Arthur G. Brown is the printer, and I must sav, in justice to him, that he runs a very good institution. The printing office is exceptionally clean and neat, and everything is in order. He has a detail of 20 boys in the forenoon and 21 boys in the afternoon at the present time. Fourteen of these boys have been in said print- ing office for two or three years, and 25 boys are new detail. The disciplinarian makes the details, but he insists that the same boys be detailed right along, and he is generally supported in his wishes; says Supt. Friedman seems to take very little interest in the work of the boys, except that he sent some as outing printers. This printing office is one of the best conducted institutions in connection with "said school. In connection with this printing office, I desire to draw your attention to the affidavit of the former printer, Mr. E. K. Miller, "Exhibit T." Mr. Miller iB is now occupying a smaller position at Chilocco. In said affidavit Mr. Miller tells CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1365 of seeing beer wagons deliver cases of beer at trie houses or quarters of Mr. Nori, chief clerk; Mr. Claude M. Stauffer, bandmaster, and Mr. Glenn S. Warner, coach. He also tells of being present at Supt. Friedman's house at an entertainment where liquor was served; that he does not consider Supt. Friedman truthful or reliable; that he has practiced methods deceiving the public in issuing statements from the printing office; that he made printed statements which were false; that he made misrepre- sentations to the Post Office Department in connection with the entry through the mails of the Redman; that he saw more drunkenness at Carlisle in one year than at Chilocco in seven years among the boy pupils; that he lived next door to Supt. Friedman and that he and his wife would often hear Mr. and Mrs. Friedman quarreling, and that the language of Mr. Friedman was anything but that of a gentleman, and was profane and obscene; that he has seen a lady guest of Mrs. Friedman smoking cigarettes on the front porch of the superintendent's house; that Supt. Friedman's method of securing complimentary newspaper notices was to write them up himself and send them in copy form to the newspapers, where they would be printed, and then reprinted in the Carlisle papers and the Redman and credited to the other news- papers; that some of the matter which was thus sent out, he printed himself for Mr. Friedman; that this was a common practice of getting complimentary notices. He states that certain football boys were enrolled at said school for the specific purpose of playing football; that he was at Coach Warner's house, on the grounds, on one occasion when they served beer. He complains that there was lack of backbone or discipline; insincerity of purpose; desire to see the students have a good time; absolute power in the hands of a man who had no connection with the service other than to make athletes (Coach Warner), a man with no interest in the moral welfare of the Indians, letting the nonessential, superficial side of life have the right of way, which brought about a condition that was deplorable and against which it was next to impossible to achieve character-building results. The athletic spirit was urged and allowed to predominate to such an extent that everything else seemed of a sub- ordinate consideration. It was easy to imagine "Pop" Warner the real superintend- ent. "I never knew of Coach Warner's orders being countermanded. His power after Mr. Leupp left the service was absolute. When it came to members of my depart- ment joining the athletic teams or the boys going to practice at all hours, being away on trips, I had no voice in the matter. Social affaire were carried to the extreme. Expenditure of money by the students to dress and the cost of parties were beyond all good sense. Extravagance seemed to be encouraged. It was no uncommon thing for the*boys of the athletic teams to be drunk and cause trouble. Thorpe was among them. Once I was told that the students had stolen liquor from the refrigerator on the porch of the residence of Supt. Friedman and became drunk. This came from a young lady who worked there. Both the athletic director and the director of music seemed independent of other departments." These industrial teachers all appeared before the joint committee and gave testi- mony, the pages of same being indexed. Your attention is respectfully invited to same. . „ , From the above you will observe that it is the opinion of practically every one of the industrial teachers connected with said school that Supt. Friedman paid no attention to the industries or to the welfare of the individual students or to their being taught trades; pays no attention to the details, allows them to be changed so often that only a very small percentage of the boys become proficient in any of the trades, and I respectfully submit that there is no justification for such neglect m the teach- ing of the boy pupils' these important trades. On page 17 of the Annual Report of the Carlisle Indian School for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1912, appears the following: _ "Carlisle Indian School lays special stress on instruction m agriculture. The instruction in agriculture is of the most practical character. Thorough instruction is given in the classroom in nature study and the elements of agriculture Again, on page 21, of said annual report: . . " The Indian boy and girl can obtain here such a knowledge of the useful industries for which there is a demand in the section of the country in which he lives, as will enable him to earn a good living for himself and family * . * ■ "In all forms of constructive work, in building construction, carpentry, plastering, blacksmithing. machine work, shoemaking, bricklaying, painting, the Indians have W, SS^^^&^ would be very good indeed if they were but true The annual report of the Carlisle Indian School for the year ending June 30, 1912, at page 12, states, among other things: 1366 CAELISLE IXDIAX SCHOOL. "During the year 976 were placed at work at their trades and 2 of the girls were training as nurses." Practically all of these pupils were working on farms as laborers and the girls in kill-hens as hired help, as I am reliably informed. OUTIXC, SYSTEM. The outing system, if properly handled and carried out, is undoubtedly beneficial to Indian students. In this connection, however, carefully selected homes to meet the requirements of each pupil should be considered, for the welfare of each individual pupil, as to his moral, religious, social, and school training. Too frequently it has been the case that but Utile attention has been paid to this feature of the outin" system, the idea seemingly having been to send out as many pupils as possible and make as good a showing as possible in the amount earned by the outing pupils. Force of numbers rather than carefully selected homes to meet the requirements of each individual pupil has been the case. The girls who are sent on outing receive wages varying from $5 to $12 per month. A general average of $7 or $8 a month would be about what they receive, while the boys receive an average of about $14 or $15 per month. Mrs. La Flesche, the outing matron, states that the idea of Supt. Friedman seems to be to make the number of outing pupils each year larger rather than to take pains to procure proper homes for the pupils: that Supt. Friedman is constantly urging that pupils be sent out under the outing system; that the boys and girls are forced out to work on the farms and in the kitchens. When the pupils go to the public schools under this outing system they receive no salary. The pupils have to pay their railroad fare one way when they go on the outings. The moneys are all turned over to the superintendent and they receive one-fourth of the salaries which they earn while in the country on outings; then they can use one- half of what is deposited and the balance is turned over to them when the period of their enrollment expires. Many pupils who have been taken from their homes, where they had public-school facilities are forced into the country on this outing system to work for a mere pittance, and in many cases attend country public schools tnat are no better, or as good, as they left at home. The patrons of this school who are anxious to employ these Indian boys and girls are, as a rule, not philanthropists. Their idea is to procure cheap labor on their farms and in their kitchens, and the fact is that these Indian pupils receive about one-half of what they would have to pay white labor for performing the same service. The majority of these pupils are sent to said school by their parents witn the under- standing that tney are to receive academic and industrial training at the school, but instead of same, and being taught some trade, they are forced on these outings to work on farms and in kitchens, and in many cases attend public scnools, when they might better be at home attending public schools. Mrs. La Flesche, the outing matron, says that conditions at tne Carlisle Indian School are very bad as regards the discipline, morals, etc.; that the pupils as a body have no respect for Supt. Friedman; that his influence with them is not good and not elevating; that they have jeered him and have called him names; have thrown shoes at him; that the food is bad and not sufficient; that many pupils have so complained; some pupils have been sent home or expelled for no just cause; and that in the best interests of the Indians and the Carlisle Indian School a new super- intendent is badly needed. Mrs. La Flesche is a highly educated, fine, cultured Indian woman, honest and competent, and she has the best interests of this school and the Indians at heart. Mrs. La Flesche testified before the joint commission, and her testimony will be found on page 1 et al. Your attention is respectfully invited to same. Miss L. M. Johnston is the girls' field agent. She has been employed at the Carlisle Indian School for seven years and for the past one and one-half years nas been acting as field agent. She states that last summer they had about 250 girls on the outing system; that at present there are 84 girls on outing. She states that these girls are employed as assistants and perform practically the same duties as a hired girl— cook- ing, washing dishes, sweeping, making beds, etc; that these girls generally receive from $6 to $10 a month, while white and negro girls for the same service receive generally $5 a week; that many of the girls attend public schools for 100 days each year, during which period they receive no pay; that they are in -the country and in suburban homes; generally their conduct is very good; there is not much trouble with the girls that are out in the winter, but in the summer with a large number tnere is a good deal of trouble. She says the greatest trouble is from indifference, untruth- fulness, imprudence, carelessness, etc.; that the girls generally are in good homes CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL 1367 and there is but little immorality now among them; she has known of but one case this winter. She says the patrons are not philanthropists and, with few exceptions simply want cheap labor; that generally the influence of the patrons is good- that the pupils generally make good progress in the public shools; that the Government furnishes the pupils with their clothing while on these outings; that the girls and boys are persuaded to go on the outings by Supt. Friedman and he urges her to send them out, the object being to have more wages and make a better showing She believes the pupils should be influenced and taught here to do what is right and not be made to go into the country; that there is no domestic science taught on the grounds, no house instruction; that many of these pupils who go on the outings come from homes just as good as those in which they are placed and have just as good public schools at home. David H. Dickey is the boys' outing; agent, his present salary being $900 per annum. I have heretofore in this report mentioned Mr. Dickey as having whipped four boys in the jail when Coach Warner, Bandmaster Stauffer, and others were present. Mr. Dickey is out in the field most of the time looking after the boys. In the sum- mer he states he has about 400 boys out in the country, and mostly all working on farms; that probably not more than 20 or 25 are employed at trades, and those who are so employed are principally helpers, blacksmiths, carpenters, and painters; that he arranges for and places the boys in the homes, and adjusts their troubles at the farms; looks after therunaways, etc.; that he generally tries to put the boys with patrons of their own religion, and tries to see that they are placed in good homes with good people. Mr. Dickey also states that he whipped two boys in the country at the request of the school-teacher. He states that the discipline at the Carlisle Indian School is very bad; that the feeling of the students against Supt. Friedman is very bitter; that the boys are rebellious; that the officers and boys are all in rebellion; that there is no head at the school; that the girls are very bitter against the matron, Miss Ridenour. He states that he had once been instructed by Supt. Friedman to get evidence against John McGinness, a former Indian boy student at Carlisle, who had returned to Carlisle and obtained employment. He believes that some bad, outlaw boys are sent to said school. It appears also to have been one of the rules of Supt. Friedman to permit none of the students or graduates of the Carlisle Indian School to remain in the territory in the vicinity of Carlisle, the boundaries of which he arbitrarily fixed as his outing district. Students whose terms of enrollment had expired or graduates or students who might have learned trades at the Carlisle Indian School were prohibited from seeking employment or procuring situations within said outing district, and numer- ous instances were related to me where Indian pupils who were no longer students of the Carlisle Indian School had been forced out of their positions and made to leave the district, on the theory that their influence was bad on the outing students. Also, these former students have been denied access to the grounds of the Carlisle Indian School by Supt. Friedman. One Sam Sonock, who has for the past eight years been employed in the Pennsyl- vania Railroad shops at Altoona, Pa., and who received his education at the Car- lisle Indian School, was denied access to the grounds, and he told me that Supt. Friedman had written to the foreman of the Pennsylvania Railroad shops, trying to have him dismissed from the service of said railroad company, charging that he influenced pupils to run away from the Carlisle Indian School, which he strenu- ously denies. He speaks of the case of Francis Greanbaum, a student who had run away from the Carlisle school and who came to him at Altoona, and for whom he secured employment in the railway shops. This pupil was later arrested and returned to said school. Sonock says he was returned on the order of Coach Warner last fall because he was a football player. Subsequently he again ran away from the said school and went to St. Louis, Mo., where, on January 3, 1914, he was found in the railway yards with both legs cut off below the knees, and Sonock says this boy would be all right and at work in the Pennsylvania Railroad shops at Altoona to-day if he had been left alone. Another case which I desire to bring to your particular attention is that of Montreville Yuda, a former pupil and graduate of the Carlisle Indian School, and who is now running a small store in Carlisle. After his graduation he returned home, up in northern New York, but subsequently returned to Carlisle where he was acquainted,, and obtained a job. He states that Supt. Friedman made him lose job after job m Carlisle put trie police on him, and tried to have him put in jail or run out of town. Your 'attention is invited to his testimony before the joint commission, page 102, Another case is that of Morris Huff, whose five-year term at said Carlisle School expired in July, 1913. This boy is 20 years of age and is employed by some good 1368 'A.KT.TSI.E INDIAN SCHOOL. people out in the country. He has been forced by the superintendent to again sign up at the school against his earnest protest, and the money derived from his labor to go through the superintendent's office. . This is no way for these Indians boy pupils to acquire independence and sclf- "'"' Lewis' Schweigman is a Sioux Indian boy from the Rosebud (S Dak.) Reservation who completed his term at the Carlisle Indian School during the sumn-er of 1913 and returned home. At the solicitation of Si.pt Friedman, who wrote him he brought back some student* from the reservation to the said school, and he was told by Mr Friedman Hint he could take up the trade of sign-painting ; instead, he was put to work as a janitor in the school building, and finally expelled, or sent home, without 3ll This V boy obtained emplovment as a painter at Grayeon, 6 miles from Carlisle, and he was fearful that he would be disturbed by Supt. Friedman in his position, and he appealed to me for protection. I told him to hold up his head like a man and go to work and so lone as he behaved himself, did not drink any liquor, and obeyed the laws' of this country, no one would bother him. This boy is of age, good habits, a good, clean, bright, intelligent boy, has high ideals, is living with a good family as a member thereof, and working for the man. _ _ This boy gave testimony before the joint commission. See his testimony at page 600. When he came to the Carlisle Indian School, at my request, to testify before said joint commission, he was ordered off the grounds by the disciplinarian under instructions from Supt. Friedman. STATEMENTS AND COMPLAINTS BY OTHER CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL EMPLOYEES. Mr. E.E. McKean, the disciplinarian, states that conditions at said school are very bad indeed; that the pupils have no respect for the superintendent; they jeer him and call him names, and have thrown old shoes at him. He can not maintain dis- cipline under present conditions; that some of the boys are being put in the county jail unnecessarily and boys have been whipped wrongfully. "I filed a complaint against Ethel Williams, Paul Jones, and Charles Kelsey, who were put in the county jail at the request of Supt. Friedman. This dirty, filthy jail is no place for these pupils. The association with criminals there is undoubtedly bad. I have received instructions heretofore from Supt. Friedman to try _ to get evidence againBt Montreville Yuda, a former student of this school, to get him run out of town. "The only thing that will relieve conditions at this school is to have a good super- intendent placed in charge, or the school will go to the bad." Disciplinarian McKean also testified before the joint commission. See his testi- mony at page 492. Mrs. A. Dietz, Indian art teacher at said school, states that the general conditions there are very bad as to discipline, morals, and drinking; that many of the boys and girls have been unjustly treated; that Principal John Whitwell is a good, honest, faithful employee, who has the best interests of the school and the student body at heart; that a new superintendent is needed in the best interests of said school. Mrs. Dietz also testified before the joint commission. See her testimony at page 310. Harvey K. Meyer, clerk, salary $1,260 per annum, who was transferred to said Bchool from the Haskell Institute, and who is a competent, conscientious, faithful official, says: "There is great lack of discipline at said school. The student body have no respect for the superintendent, who appears to take no real interest in their welfare. There have been many cases of wrong action on the part of the superintendent, and I men- tion those against Lewis Schweighman, Morris Huff, Montreville Yuda, Sylvia Moon, Gus Welsh, and others. Supt. Friedman told me that some of these students were mixed up in a movement against him. Conditions are gradually getting worse this past year. The former matron, Miss Gaither, was not properly supported by the superintendent. Many students complain that they do not get enough to eat. There is great lack of discipline and cooperation with employees. The superintendent does not seem to care. The solution of the problem is that we need a good superintendent who can handle the situation, a big man as a leader, one who will get the best out of the employees and the students. Let our work, instead of the newspapers and maga- zines, spread our glory. Some students were put in jail unjustly; others who did things worse were not hurt. There is no justice and no like treatment in similar cases. The students are not being helped, and are losing valuable time. In some cases the boys are being hurt." CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1369 Mr. Harvey K. Meyer also testified before the joint commission. See his testimony at page 514. J Wallace Denny, assistant disciplinarian, in charge of the smaller boys' quarters is an Indian and received his education at this institution. Mention has heretofore been made that he had struck ths boys with his fist on various occasions, which should not be permitted. Mr. Denny stated to me, in substance, that the student body were all against Supt. Friedman; that he can not get along with the pupils or control them; that the discipline is bad and continually getting worse; that some bad boys who are nearly white have been admitted to said school who had formerly been in reformatories; that some of (he boys had been whipped and fined. "The feeling is better now that you are here, but this thiDg can not continue, and there is going to be an outbreak. Many pupils complain they do not get enough to eat, and the boys are continually asking for more bread. It is much easier to control a bunch of well-fed boys, who will then feel better. There is a continual fight between _ the superintendent and the students. 'What is needed is a good, strong man, who ' will reach the heart of the student body, and students of better characters should be entered — Indians, not nearly white people. No suits of the pupils in my dormitory have been mended for the past two yeai-B." Mr. Denny also gave testimony before the joint commission, page 107, to which your attention is respectfully invited. Mrs. Wallace Denny, a former employee and outing manager, and the wife of the assistant disciplinarian, Wallace Denny, stated to me that she received her education at the Carlisle Indian School and had its best interests at heart, as also that of the Indian pupils; that she had never seen such a bad condition at said school as now; that there was a great lack of discipline and morals; that the pupils did not like or respect Supt. Friedman; that the girls complained of the meals served, they did not get enough bread to eat; many employees do not like the superintendent; that he is influenced by Bandmaster Stauffer; that some of the pupils are short of shoes and clothing, and there is a great demand for better food; that the pupils are in an ugly rebellious mood. Mrs. Denny also testified before the joint commission. See her testimony at page 180. Mrs. Ora L. Knight, assistant matron, who sometimes stays in the dining room during the service of meals, says that she has heard complaint as to lack of bread, . knives, forks, spoons, etc. ; that napkins are only issued once a week; that the dining room is not what it ought to be. Dr. Walter Rendtorff, physician at said school, has only been there since January 1 of this year, having been transferred to said school from Anadarko, Okla. I believe Dr. Rendtorff to be a capable, courteous, conscientious official and a good doctor. He stated to me that he was not courteously received by Supt. Friedman on his arrival; that he was made to feel at once that he was not wanted; that the treatment accorded him by Supt. Friedman was not just or proper. He stated that he believed there were some pupils at the school with mental defects and some with such poor eyes that they should not be in school; that he found on arrival two pupils — Susan White and Steel Slansback — with advanced cases of pul- monary troubles; that they had to be sent home at once. He states that the general health conditions at the school are pretty good; that there has been quite an epi- demic of measles recently, and there are 18 cases of glandular tuberculosis, quite a little trachoma; that there are seven cases of trachoma which should be operated on; some of them are comparatively new students; that the equipment of the hospital is good, the nurse is good, and so are the hospital girls; considers the discipline at the school now very bad; has had to send one girl home recently on account of her condition. In connection with the health conditions of said school I desire to refer to the testi- mony of Supt. Friedman before said joint commission, at page 643, wherein he says the number of deaths at said school in 1888 was 21 and in 1889, 18. That is very true. He picked out the two years when the Apaches were transferred to Car- lisle regardless of their condition, and picked these two years to reflect on the admin- istration, if possible, of Gen. Pratt. He failed to state, however, that during the fol- lowing years the death rate was very low, and that some years, with a larger attend- ance of pupils at said school, there had been no deaths. For your information I here give the following: In 1892 there were 6 deaths out of 926 pupils. In 1893 there were 6 deaths out of 911 pupils. In 1894 there was 1 death out of 818 pupils. In 1895 there were 8 deaths out of 842 pupils. In 1896 there were no deaths out of 898 pupils. 1370 CARLISLE IN WAX SCHOOJ . In 1S97 there wore 2 deaths out, of 020 pupils. In lSflS there were 4 deaths out of 1 ,080 pupils. In 1899 there were 4 deaths out of 1,090 pupils. In 1900 there were 6 deaths out of 1,218 pupils. In 1901 there were 4 deaths out of 1,174 pupils. In 1902 there were 2 deaths out of 1 .234 pupils. In ]90:i there were no deaths out of 1,298 pupils. In 1904 there were 8 deaths out of 1,173 pupils. 1 simply quote the above figures to show the unfairness attempted by (superintend- ent Friedman in his testimony. ... . . , , , T John M Rudey, who was former assistant disciplinarian at said school from June, 1910 to December 1912 and acting disciplinarian from then until April 7, 1913, at the large boys' quarters, told me that he was never supported by the superintendent, Moses Friedman; that he is capable of instilling military discipline, which is not allowed He states that the students hate Superintendent Friedman have no respect for him and that both the boys and girls call him " Old Mose, ' "Old Sheeny etc. He says that Principal Whitwell is a good, honest, earnest man, and a hard worker. On June 28 1913 Mr Rudey wrote a letter to Secretary Lane giving his views as to conditions at the Carlisle Indian School, » copy of which I herewith inclose for your information and mark "Exhibit LI," to which your attention is respectfully Nelson D. Simon, a pupil at said school for five years past, president of the Y. M, C. A. work a good earnest, honest young man, stated to me that about a year ago, when Dr J W W Walker was in charge of the Y. M. C. A. work of the Carlisle Indian School they had a membership of 269 ; that great good was being accomplished among the pupils by Dr. Walker, and that the influences of the Y. M. C. A. were exception- ally good for the young men. He states that. Dr. Walker was treated unjustly and compelled to leave the school work, and that now the Y. M. C. A. work has dwin- dled down so that they have only 28 members and only three or four paid-up mem- bers; that the superintendent, 'Mose3 Friedman, keeps appointing different em- ployees to act, but none can seem to handle the situation, which is now going to the bad; that Superintendent Friedman lent no aid or encouragement to said associa- tion', which association was a great help and encouragement and doing a great good among the pupils. Nelson D. Simon filed with me two letters, one addressed by the student boys, former members of the Y. M. C. A. at Carlisle Indian School, dated April 2, 1913, to Dr. James W. W. Walker, and the other a reply from Dr. Walker, dated April 16, 1913, to which your attention is invited as showing the good effect this Y. M. C. A. teach- ing by Dr. Walker had on the pupils of said school and its employees; that such influence should be encouraged rather than killed off, as in this case, by Superin- tendent Friedman. These letters I attach together and mark "Exhibit Ml." MISCELLANEOUS. Mr. August Kensler has been at said school for about 21 1 years. He has charge of the general supplies and storehouse, issues all supplies, and has charge of the property list. Mr. Kensler has had a very good system in vogue and has been doing a fairly good work. He has resigned, I am informed, to take effect March 1, and I desire to state that his resignation was not occasioned by reason of my investi- gation, and so far as I am advised I know nothing in regard to his property accounts being wrong. On February 4, 1914, I convened a board of survey, which condemned a lot of worth- less articles. As members of said board I appointed August Kensler, quartermaster; Henry Gardner, carpenter; and William C. Shambaugh, blacksmith. Several tons of worthless articles were condemned and destroyed by fire and a few articles con- demned for sale, of which your office will be duly apprised by the superintendent's office at Carlisle. With relation to there being no quarters for the industrial teachers on the grounds at Carlisle, I will state that there is a two-story house between the superintendent's magnificent home and the small boys' dormitory, which is a frame building in which two small families might be comfortably housed. This building, I understand, has been kept for the use of guests and only a small portion used at a time for this purpose, while these employees have been compelled to pay house rent. The art building, a one-story cement-block structure, has been vacant for about a year. One large- family could be housed in this building. Mr. Claude M. Stauffer, the bandmaster, has had double the room assigned to him that he needed. The athletic coach, Mr. Warner, who was not a Government em- CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1371 ployee, had a very large house assigned to him, which he occupied with just his wife. It is my judgment that these vacant buildings and other buildings herein mentioned should be allowed to be occupied by the employees and industrial teachers of said Carlisle Indian School, who receive very meager salaries. As heretofore stated, there are no domestic science or housekeeping apartments on the grounds. I believe this is one of the essential things, and that possibly some of these buildings might be utilized for such purpose if not used for these employees. During nearly one month while I was at Carlisle I did not hear the band play. There was never any flag salute, and the records of the athletic fund show numerous payments made for music furnished, while this Bandmaster Stauffer was receiving a salary of $1,400. I believe that the flag salute which the band would attend, and play while the pupils thereafter marched to the dining room to their meals, would inspire patriotism in the pupils and produce a good feeling at said institution. The jail at said school is a good, clean, cement building, with six cells, lavatories, running water, shower bath, steam heat, electric lights. The athletic building is well equipped. The roof on the athletic cottage is not good, leaks and needs repairing, and the building needs painting. The grandstand has been torn down and needs repairing. The barn is in need of repairs and painting. One of the great necessities for said school is two night watchmen. Mr. Frank J. Veith, the former gardener at said school, now at the Sherman Insti- tute, California, made affidavit to which he attached letters received from Supt. Friedman addressed to him at Riverside, Cal. His affidavit shows, in substance, that during his stay at Carlisle he gave vegetables to Mrs. Friedman, at her written request, and often without request; that his assistant, Mr. Murray A. Collins, had received written requests for vegetables from Mrs. Friedman and helped him gather them for her; that on one occasion when taking the basket of vegetables to Mrs. Friedman he met Quartermaster Kensler coming from the office building, and when asked by Kensler who was buying those, told him they were for Mrs. Friedman. He also gave flowers to Mrs. Friedman. These vegetables were not paid for, still this did not prevent Supt. Friedman from charging him with giving vegetables to the teachers' club. This affidavit, with letters attached, I mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit Nl." I also inclose affidavit of one Stella V. Bear, an Indian girl, formerly employed at Supt. Friedman's house, which was sent to me by Supt. W. R. Davis, Bismarck (N. Dak.) school, at my request. This affidavit I mark "Exhibit 01." I also inclose affidavit of Clara Spottedhorse Yellowtail, also an Indian girl, who formerly worked for Supt. Friedman, now at Grass Lodge, Mont. This affidavit I mark "Exhibit PI." I also inclose letter dated February 6, 1914, addressed to me by Stella Bradley, and another letter of even date addressed to me by Anna Miller. These letters show that Bandmaster Stauffer purchased a $25 mandolin from an Indian girl, named Rosa Sampson, at said school for $5 and immediately sold it to Stella Bradley for $15. These letters I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit Ql." I took the affidavit of one Davis Sawmick, a Chippewa Indian boy, 15 years of age, who has been enrolled at the Carlisle Indian School since 1908. This affidavit shows that this bov worked on a farm for $5, $7, $10, and $12 a month, up to November, 1913, and after five years, when his term is about to expire, he is now put to work in a blacksmith shop to learn his trade, and although he attended various public schools for a portion of this five years, he is now only in the second grade and has had three weeks' experience at the trade at said school. This affidavit I mark ' ' Exhibit Rl . " . I secured from August Kensler, quartermaster, a list of small surplus clothing which is not required at the Carlisle School, and this excess clothing for small pupils should be shipped to some other school where they can use same, rather than have it go to waste there at the Carlisle Indian School, and I have the honor to so recommend. There are 126 overcoats, various sizes; 115 shirts; 300 canton flannel drawers; 93 pairs pants- 10i dozen boys' merino undershirts; 7 dozen boys' summer drawers; 20 dozen boys' summer undershirts; 40 dozen boys' long hose; 4 dozen misses winter vests; 250 Tarn o' Shanters. These unnecessary supplies for this school should be promptly shipped where they are needed. This list I inclose and mark as "Exhibit SI " . . In accordance with instructions received from the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, I delivered a telegram to Musical Director (laude M Stauffer, sus- pending him. Copy of my letter quotii.„ said telegram is herewith inclosed and marked ' ' Exhibit Tl . " 1372 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. With relation to optical and dentist bills, I have to state that pupils having money on deposit at said Carlisle Indian School are required to pay for the same, but the Government pays for those who have no money in the bank. This is inconsistent and no encouragement to pupils to have a bank account. It does not seem quite fair. It appears that two legacies were left to the Carlisle Indian School. Mary P. Ropes, of Salem Mass , who died in 1903, willed to the said school $2,500. Ihis money has been'paid over and now amounts, with interest, to $2,664.03. The will of Anna E Peale, Philadelphia, dated December 7, 1905, bequeathed to said school the sum of $3 000 'for the maintenance and education of Indian girls. I am advised that the trustees of said latter fund are Moses Friedman, John Lindener, and J. W. Wetzel, attorney. I am also advised that the trustees of the Ropes fund are John Ray, attor- ney, of Carlisle, Pa., and John W. Wetzel, an attorney of Carlisle. The data in relation to these trust funds are embraced in statements which I here- with attach and mark "Exhibit Ul." CASE Or C. B. BEHNEY. Bv letter dated February 3 , ±914, the honorable Secretary of the Interior transmitted to me letter of C. B . Behney , a former employee of the Carlisle School, for consideration and investigation. . Mr. Behney addressed a letter, dated January 27, 1914, Harnsburg, Pa., to the honora- ble Commissioner of Indian Affairs, complaining about his dismissal from the Carlisle Indian School and asking to be reinstated. me to Miss Anna La Fernier, an Indian pupil < mers, " which letter is written by said 0. B. Behney. Miss Ridenour opened this letter addressed to this Indian girl pupil, being suspicious that it was not a proper letter. The letter addressed to this Indian girl also inclosed a copy of a letter addressed to the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs. In his letter addressed to Anna La Fernier he uses endearing terms, and says, among other things : "Anna, if you loved me just half as much as I hate the 'Israelite ' we would be mar- ried by this time. Don't you think it would make the 'Jew' sit up and take notice? Don't you remember how I picked the burrs out of your hair and how slow I went about it? I know you don't want me to call you Chippewa Squaw and I feel much closer when I call you Anna. You know if I were superintendent you would have lots of dancing. When are you going to teach me to tango? The next girls' town day, couldn't you meet me in Spahr's restaurant? " etc. Thus, it appears that this former employee was engaged in making love to one of the school girls and is undoubtedly not a proper person to be employed at said school, and I have the honor to so recommend . I inclose the letter addressed to the honorable commissioner and the letter which he wrote to Miss Anna La Fernier attached together, and mark as "Exhibit V-l. " I also received a letter from the honorable Secretary of the Interior, dated February 6, 1914, inclosing a letter from Moses Friedman, superintendent, addressed to the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, wherein he recommended that Charles Kelsey, a Winnebago Indian boy who committed an assault on Disciplinarian McEean when he (Kelsey) was intoxicated, should be returned to his home without delay. I have heretofore mentioned this case of Charles Kelsey in this report and stated that he had publicly apologized to the school, and that I believed it to be to the best interests of the boy to have him retained at said school, and I have the honor to so recommend. This letter I inclose and mark "Exhibit Wl." I inclose the affidavit of Alice Guest, a former employee of said school, now at Riverside, Cal., with relation to Supt. Friedman, which I mark "Exhibit XL" By letter dated January 30, 1914, the honorable Secretary of the Interior trans- mitted to me the file in connection with the complaint made by Supt. Friedman relative to the conduct of Roy L. Mann, teacher at said Carlisle Indian School. I investigated this case and took the affidavit of Mr. Roy Mann, which I inclose here- with for your information and mark "Exhibit Yl." As late as September 19, 1914, Supt. Friedman wrote of Mr. Mann in the Carlisle Arrow, who was selected as secretary for the Y. M. C. A., that the selection was a most admirable one; that — "He is a young man of splendid education and experience in teaching. * * * He is a man of clean habits and strong character, with high ideals and pleasing per- sonality * * *." CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1373 It appears that shortly thereafter Supt. Friedman had a sudden change of heart with relation to Mr. Mann, because he believed him to be friendly with Principal John Whitwell, and he charged Mr. Mann with criticizing the school, in conjunction with Miss Sweeney and others, forming a coterie with Mr. Whitwell to stir up unrest among the student body, etc. In order to pave the way for writing this letter derogatory to Mr. Mann, he wrote a couple of letters to Mr. Mann which are attached to said correspondence, charging him with disturbance in the athletic building and using obscene and profane lan- guage, etc. Mr. Mann states, under oath, that all of the charges are absolutely false and untrue and that he never criticized the conduct of the superintendent of the Carlisle Indian School until two or three week? ago; that he knows Principal Whitwell to be a good, true, honored man; that Mr. Whitwell had never criticized his school- room work; that his conduct in the athletic building was entirely proper; that he is a Christian young man and does not use profane language; that he never has had any- thing to do with Miss Sweeney and nothing in common with her; that he has not been engaged in stirring up trouble, nor talking about the superintendent or encouraging or influencing the students in any manner against Supt. Friedman; that Supt. Fried- man some time ago called him to the office and told him that he should not believe things he heard against him on the grounds, "and hinted about my being friendly with Mr. Whitwell," and he believes that Supt. Friedman's charges against him have been because "I am a friend of Mr. Whitwell and he has seen me talking to Congressman Rupley." I also talked with several of the boys who roomed at the athletic quarters to ascer- tain whether they had ever made complaint about the conduct of Teacher Roy L. Mann in the athletic quarters, as complained of by Supt. Friedman. Edward Bracklin said he never complained to anybody and had no cause to complain. Peter Jordan said he never complained of Mr. Mann and never had any cause to do so. Elmer Bush, captain of the football team, said that Supt. Friedman sent for him and questioned him about Mann, and he said he was all right in every respect except that he sometimes smoked in his room. Fred Broker said that Mann came in one night and talked loud and woke him up; that he talked of same to Mr. Mann and to the janitor of the building-, Mr. Hill, but that he never complained to Supt. Friedman about it. Peter Calack stated that Mr. Mann came in late one night and made a noise and woke him up, and he complained of it to the janitor, Mr. Hill. Joe Guyon said that he had never made any complaint. Charles Coons said that Mr. Mann came in late one night and laughed and made some noise, and that he spoke of it to some of the boys but never complained. Gus Lookaround said that Mr. Mann stayed up late and made some noise, but that he had never complained. , _, , William Garlow, a football boy, who appears to have had some trouble with \eacher Mann, said that Mann made a noise in the quarters, came in late and that he had cursed Supt. Friedman; that Supt Friedman asked him about it and he told him so So, it appears that the only person who actually made any complaint about 1 eacher Mann was William Garlow, with whom Mann had had some trouble; that barlow did not complain until he was questioned by Supt. Friedman. I am convinced that Roy L. Mann is a clean, capable young man, of good habits, does not use liquor, and has smoked some in his room. I do not believe he is a man who uses profane language and I do not believe there is any justification for the cha lg es brought against him by Supt. Friedman. This is the opinion, also, of a number of other employees of said school with whom I talked. ,, . V| ,, , I attach his affidavit to the papers transmitted and mark this Exhibit Yi, and direct your attention to same. CHARGES BY R. H. PRATT, BRIGADIER GENERAL, UNITED STATES ARMY. There were transmitted to me by Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs Januarv 29 1914 charges preferred against Moses Friedman, superintendent of the i ,"i y T V y 3 XZ<\ W T! H Pratt who charges malicious, false, slanderous Carlisle Indian School, by a. u. rran, »" u > -" c ''& c °. „ ffi • , I™,^^ qaid Moses accusations unbecoming a gentleman and Government official, against said woses Sman Ve particulaf specifications being that said Moses Friedman did prepare Jmedman tne pariicui ai 'J 1 believe him to be responsible for the article which appeared m the newspaper reiterating the very same charges which he made There has been considerable bootlegging going on in Carlisle and the student boys have been able to secure a good deal of liquor, and in some cases have returned to the grounds under the influence of liquor and brought liquor on the grounds I have the honor to recommend that the superintendent be instructed to issue an order to all oi the boy pupils that they will not be permitted to go down town in the town oi C arlisle, or to Harnsburg, or towns adjoining Carlisle, unless thev are dressed in their umtomis, the reason being ths.it many of thete young men are nWly white and when dressed in citizens' clothes can not be distinguished from a white man and could easily obtain liquor, but with the uniforms on it will advertise to everyone that they are members of the student body of the (.'arlisle Indian School and then there can be no excuse for selling or giving them liquor. Furthermore, I belie.ve that it would be wise to send some special liquor officer to Carlisle, under cover, every once in a while and see if he can not secure evidence against these bootleggers and persons who sell liquors to these Indian boys. There are about 15 saloons in Carlisle and the boys seem to have had no trouble in securing liquor. There are other affidavits included in "Exhibit T" herewith which were secured by Supervisor Brown, as follows: Mrs. E. K. Miller, James Fdward Jones, Julia Jones, Fred Bruce, Harry Roberts, to which attention is invited. The affidavit of Mrs. E. K. Miller corroborates her husband's statement as regards the quarreling indulged in between Mr. and Mrs. Friedman. The affidavit of James Edward Jones relates to being induced by Coach Warner to go to Carlisle to play football for a consideration. The affidavit of Julia Jones corroborates that of her husband. The affidavit of Fred Bruce is, in effect, that some football boys, viz, James Thorp and Gus Welsh, drank beer at the school while he was there; that liquor was brought there by a fellow employed in the quartermaster's office (meaning Stewart, assistant quartermaster, who has been known to be drunk on the grounds and not prosecuted); that the football boys James Thorpe and Gus Welsh were not punished; and another boy, a football player by the name of Williams, was drunk on the grounds and not punished. Said affidavit also indicates that the letter written by James Thorpe with regard to being a professional was prepared by Coach Warner. The affidavit of Harry Roberts is with relation to his having been induced to go to Carlisle by Coach Warner to play football, for which he received pay. This was in the fall of 1911. The records show that Harry Roberts, 23 years of age, was enrolled as a student at said school October 8, 1911, and discharged January 1 5, 1912. The books of the Carlisle Athletic Association show that he was paid $75 per month, and he states that he did some clerical work in the superintendent's office; that he was placed in the office by Coach Warner; he did not attend school. This affidavit of Harry Roberts shows conclusively that he was employed by Coach Warner to play or assist in football games at the Carlisle Indian School, for which he received a salary, paid from the athletic funds, and that during such period he was enrolled as a student at said school. The testimony given by the young lady pupils of the Carlisle Indian School before the joint commission charged Miss Anna H. Ridenour, matron, with being harsh, cruel, unkind, and unjust to the girls. They said that she would not speak to them kindly but was harsh and rude toward them and that she was unjustly severe with many of the girl pupils and she had been the cause of having had expelled or sent home certain of the girl pupils without just cause, etc. Miss Ridenour's predecessor was a woman of kindly disposition and was much loved by the girl students at Carlisle. It was evident that she treated them kindly and was a sort of a mother to them. They could and did go to her for motherly advice and were kindly and considerately treated. These girl pupils claim, as do also a large number of employees, that Miss Gaither, the matron, was unjustly treated by Supt. Friedman and compelled to transfer, which was very displeasing to the girl students. They regarded Miss Gaither very highly and desired her to stay, and when she was transferred and Miss Ridenour came to Carlisle as matron, they were not prepared to receive any- body who would take the place of Miss Gaither; so it is undoubtedly true that Miss Ridenour was not received very kindly by the girls. This, coupled with the informa- tion she received from the superintendent, made her harsh and severe toward the girl pupils. Miss Ridenour is a good woman and undoubtedly means well, but she is unfortunate in her disposition. She is harsh and severe and a strict disciplinarian. She probably 1376 CAliLISLK INDIAN SCHOOL. felt that she had to be this way in order to properly control these girls. Many of these young ladies are refined, with high ideals, and they naturally resented such cruel treatment. They have not had the same feeling toward her as they had for the former matron; have not felt toward her like a mother or gone to her with their troubles, feeling that they could not do so. On occasions her severe discipline in putting girls in the lockup and keeping them there for some time; in permitting the whipping of Julia Hardin by Bandmaster Stauffer; in having had a personal altercation with one Rose Whipper, a student at said school- with having had Sylvia Moon expelled without just cause; and by her general harsh treatment of the girls, she has gained their ill will and enmity to such an extent that her usefulness at said school is a thing of the past. The student boys have taken up the cause of the girls and every time they see Miss Ridenour on the campus, going to meals, or whatever the case may be, they hiss and jeer at her and yell " Put her out," and treat her very discourteously. For those reasons, and believing also that it is in the best interests of Miss Ridenour herself, I recommend that she be transferred elsewhere and. a good, kind-heartod, motherly woman be sent as matron in her place. This opinion is concurred in by the members of the joint commission. Will H. Miller, financial clerk, has been employed at said Carlisle Indian School for many years. Aside from keeping books and accounts of the individual moneys of the pupils of said school, he has kept the athletic accounts and performed other services. He is faithful and obliging. I regard him as one of the best and most trustworthy employees at said school. His salary is but $1,000 per annum, but for several years past he has been receiving an additional sum of $35 per month, which was paid to him from the athletic funds. This payment of additional salary from tho athletic funds will now undoubtedly cease, and for such reason I believe he should receive additional compensation. I therefore have the honor to recommend that his .-.alary be increased to $1,440 per annum and that he be retained as financial clerk unler the superintendent who may take charge of said school. I believe that if the "city school plan" were adopted at said school, whereby the pupils and officers of the various companies would govern their own student body, that conditions regarding the discipline of said school would improve. I believe that the majority of the student body are honorable and high-minded and that the right kind of a man as superintendent who would treat them kindly and appeal to their ^ense of honor and better natures would bring out the good and accomplish a wonderful work for good at said institution. They would be loyal if properly handled and would aid in having good discipline and suppressing liquor and in making this school, in far-t as well as in name, an institution to be proud of. Attention is also invited to the fact that Congressman Rupley had made complaint to the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs with relation to the proper conduct of said Carlisle Indian School, and he states that he did so solely in the best interests of the school and considered his communication a privileged one, and that shortly there- after it became known to Supt. Friedman that he (Congressman Rupley) had filed complaint against the way said school was being conducted, and Supt. Friedman shortly thereafter had three of his friends, viz, Dr. A. R. Allen, of Carlisle, Pa., who was the temporary physician at said school; Rev. George M. Diffenderfer, to whom many payments, aggregating hundreds of dollars, had been paid out of the athletic tunds; and Fisk Goodyear, all three residents of Carlisle, Pa., circulate a petition in the town of Carlisle and procure signers to same, which petition stated, in substance, That the conditions at said Carlisle Indian School were never better as to discipline, morals, health, food, use of liquor, etc. I am also informed that these three men and the public press of Carlisle, Pa., and elsewhere, by words and publications, circulated false and damaging statements against Congressman Rupley and charged him with being an enemy to Carlisle, trying to injure the school, etc., which conduct on the part of Supt. Moses Friedman was highly improper and unjust, and done with the intention of reflecting unjust cri- ticism and discredit upon said Congressman A. R. Rupley; and, further, that Supt. Moses b riedman made wrongful use of the information he thus obtained from Govern- ment sources for the purpose of injuring Congressman A. R. Rupley. SUMMARY. It is herein shown by the testimony of the farmers, gardeners, dairymen, carpen- I'-ra, mason, carnagemaker, shoemaker, tailor, tinner, blacksmith, painter, engineer, seamstress, disciplinarian, assistant disciplinarian, former disciplinarian, principal ot the school, various teachers; by 14 boys and girls representing the student body; by the outing matron, girls' field agent, certain clerks, former employees of said school, and others, that Supt. Moses Friedman has not the best interests of the „ CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1377 Government at heart or the welfare of the student, body of said Carlisle Indian School; that he has been neglectful of his duties in properly supervising and looking after the various industrial departments of said school; that he has neglected the best interests of the student body in not having them taught agriculture, gardening, farm- ing, dairying, poultry raising, horticulture, etc.; that he has been neglectful of his duty in not naving boys properly selected and detailed to the various shops and in- dustries, such as the tailor shop, paint shop, carpenter shop, blacksmith shop, car- riagemaker shop, shoemaker shop, and tin shop, for a sufficient length of time to enable them to learn the trades; that he took no personal interest in such matters, but allowed these details to be made haphazard by the disciplinarian without any regard whatever to the qualifications of the boys or their desire to learn certain trades, and permitted them to be shifted from one shop to another and to the farms, kitchen, and on outing, to the detriment of and against the best interests of the future welfare of these boys. It is also herein shown that the students did not have sufficient to eat; that there was generally a Jack of bread on the tables prior to my coming to Carlisle; that there was an insufficient number of knives, spoons, cups, and tableware, all of which was caused by the neglect of Supt. Friedman. It is also shown that the Government rations allowed could and should have been properly supplemented by vegetables, which could and should have been raised at the school and which would have provided education and employment for the pupils as well; that there are no vegetables, no milk, eggs, pork, or other articles of food being served to supplement said ration; that butter is furnished only once a week; an insufficient quantity of sirup twice a week and a little canned fruit occasionally; that the pork raised at said school and the lard has been sold and the moneys placed in class 4 fund and used for purposes other than for the tables of the pupils. It is also shown that the mattresses on the majority of the beds in the dormitories were unfit for use; hard, packed down, and matted from years of use and should have been condemned and replaced by new mattresses; that but one towel a week was furnished for each pupil for face and bath; that the general conditions in the dormitories were not good. It is shown that on my arrival the discipline of said school was very bad indeed; that there was almost open rebellion among the student body against the superin- tendent of said school, which had been brought about by lack of proper cooperation with employees; lack of sympathy and unjust treatment of certain members of the student body; unjust treatment of certain employees; lack of individual interest in the pupils or their welfare; lack of proper details to the various industries; lack of proper night watchmen; lack of any human side or fatherly interest in the welfare of this student body. , It is further shown that football and athletics were allowed to predominate and obtain first place at said school, and that the academic, educational, industrial, agricultural training, etc., of the student body were iri consequence allowed to surfer and were made a secondary consideration. It is shown by reference to Exhibit I that Supt. Friedman used and permitted the athletic funds of said school to be improperly used It is shown that professionalism was employed in the athletics of said school and the football players were brought back to said school and enrolled as members of the student body for the express purpose of playing football and taking part in ath- e iUa shown that the football players of said school received payments in cash or indirectly in some other manner. . . ., It is shown that Supt. Friedman had students of said school put m the county jail Cumberland County, W, some for trivial offenses, such as stealing P™,™* treated others unjustly in violation of the law, viz, the case of Paul Jones and Ethel Wilhams It is. shown that Supt. Moses Friedman permitted corporal Foment at said school and encouraged same-as an example the whipping of ^a Hardin ^band- master C. M. Stauffer and the whipping of four boys in the jail by Mr. Dickey, t£S2tte testimony of former Printer E. K. Miller that liquor has been served at the Carlisle Indian School in the home of Supt. Friedman and that beer rTbeen Slivered on the grounds at the homes of Coach Warner, Bandmaster S 1tifsho 1 wn C1 that I fa voritism was shown toward the football players and certain emnlovees Tnd that certain football players who were intoxicated and brought nZ« on the grounds were not disciplined, while others have been severely dis- d|Zed for trivIZffenses-viz, the putting of the boys in the county jail for steal- ing pies. 35601— pt 11—14 27 1378 CARLISLE INDIAN SjCHQOL. It is shown that the school records have been falsified, and that prior tp the date of the last investigation by Supervisor Charles F. Pierce, February 20, 1911, pupils had been carried on said roll's for a period of upward of 22.000 days when they were not in attendance, some of whom had been absent for periods as long as 5 years. In this connection I desire to refer to testimony of the joint commission, pages 226 It is shown that former students and graduates of the Carlisle Indian School who sought employment within the arbitrarily fixed lines of the Carlisle Outing Sys- tem were improperly treated by Supt. Friedman and made to lose their jobs. It is shown that Supt. Moses Friedman has lost the respect, confidence, and good will of practically the entire student body, as well as of the majority of the employ- ees of said Carlisle Indian School, and that he is unsympathetic and overbearing in his conduct toward the pupils and certain of the employees; that his manage- ment of the school is inefficient in practically every department It is shown that the outing system has been exaggerated and abused; that pupils have been forced on outings at a nominal wage against their best interests. It is shown that there are a large number of pupils enrolled at said school when they have public school facilities at home and who were attending public school prior to coming to Carlisle, and it is my best judgment that these schools should accommodate Indian pupils who have not the advantages of public schools at then- It is shown that the records have been falsified with relation to pupils who have been sent home or expelled. It is shown that the morals of said school have been very bad and tnat a large number of girl students were ruined, caused, generally, by the boys breaking into the girls' dormitory building, because of lack of proper night watchmen and proper policing of the grounds, through the neglect and lack of proper administration of Supt. Moses Friedman. It is shown that Supt. Moses Friedman has presented false accounts to the Government in that he has charged and collected railway fares for certain trips which are embraced in his Government vouchers, when he used mileage for the iden- tical trips that was bought and paid for out of the athletic funds pf the Carlisle association. , In view of the foregoing I have the honor to recommend that Supt. Moses Fried- man be dismissed permanently from the Government service. CHIEF CLERK J. S. NORI. While making my investigation, I became suspicious that all was not just right with Chief Clerk J. S. Nori. It had come to my knowledge that he had likely been living beyond his salary, and rumors were afloat connecting him with certain women in the town of Carlisle. He is a competent chief clerk, writes a good hand, keeps a nice set of books, records, etc. The Government accounts, on their face, appear to be all right, and I began making such investigation and inquiry as would develop anything to show where he might have procured moneys for which he rendered Government vouchers and accounts. I ascertained that Financial Clerk Will H. Miller had on a very large number of occasions turned over moneys to Chief Clerk Nori for the purchase of railway tickets for various pupils. These railway tickets might be to pay the transportation of pupils either to their homes from Carlisle or from their homes to Carlisle, or both, and this cash so turned over to Chief Clerk Nori by Financial Clerk Will H. Miller was in some instances charged to and paid by the athletic association funds, and in other cases these moneys were advanced from and charged to the individual account of the pupil if he had funds to his credit. Thus checks would be drawn and signed by the pupil and charged against his individual account, or a check would be drawn against the athletic association funds, and in most every instance these checks were cashed and the cash turned over to Chief Clerk Nori to purchase the railway transportation for such pupil. I was suspicious that there might be instances developed wherein the transporta- tion of the pupil was charged against the Government and Government voucher and account rendered covering such transportation, and that some of the moneys thus turned over to Chief Clerk Nori might have thus been retained by him. I found that to go into this matter thoroughly it would take a large amount of time and checking, because it would necessitate going into each individual account and picking out all the transportation charges, as also from the athletic association books, and then picking out all the transportation vouchers from the superintendent's ac- counts as rendered for the past several years, in order to make a proper checking. CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1379 I did not have the time to go into this matter thoroughly myself, and therefore I instructed the financial clerk, Will H. Miller, and Clerk Harvey K. Meyer, in both of whom I have confidence, to take this matter up and check it thoroughly just as soon as they could find time, and advise me of their findings. I am now in receipt of a letter, dated March 10, 1914, Carlisle, Pa., from Financial Clerk Will H. Miller, in which he indicates that Chief Clerk Nori is loath to turn over the Government vouchers to him and Mr. Meyer for the purpose of checking, but that he did turn over some vouchers and that a check on the first one of them showed th^t tforee items appearing on said voucher as being paid by Government check had heretofore been paid by Mr. Miller, financial clerk, and the moneys charged either against the individual Indian account of the pupil or against the athletic association funds. This cash turned over by Financial Cleric Miller to Chief Clerk Nori he kept an account of, but did not take Chief Clerk Nori's receipt for same. I am well satisfied in my own mind that Financial Clerk Miller has been absolutely- honest in this matter, and that he has turned over these moneys to Chief Clerk Nori, for wbich the chief clerk, in some instances, has rendered Government vouchers and accounts and has retained the cash thus turned over for his own use and benefit. Of course, this has to do with the accounts of Supt. Moses Friedman, and I am satisfied that quite a large amount of money which has been turned over to Chief Clerk Nori has not been accounted for, but that the Government has paid the identical transporta- tion which has been paid to him and charged against the accounts of the individual pupil, or paid by the moneys of the athletic association fund. I, therefore, deem it wise to return at once to Carlisle and thoroughly check this class pi accounts and make supplemental report covering same. I am satisfied this will further complicate the accounts of Supt. Friedman and that he is likely to have quite a large amount to reimburse to the Government, and that this will develop that Chief Clerk Nori is likely to be dishonest and unfit to further remain in the Government service. M r - Nori is an Indian — from Laguna, N. Mex., Pueblo. RECOMMENDATIONS. That Moses Friedman, superintendent, be permanently dismissed from the Govern- ment service, for the many reasons herein set forth. That Claude M. Stauffer, musical director, be permanently dismissed from the Government service. ' ' That Glenn S. Warner, athletic coach, be dismissed, in the best interests of the school. (He is not a Government employee . ) That the transfer of Miss Anna H. Ridenour, matron, be made, in the best interests of the Carlisle Indian School and the Government service. That Mr. John Whitwell, principal, be retained in the best interests of said school. That corporal punishment at said school be abolished, and that proper reprimands be given to David H. Dickey, boys' field agent, for whipping boys, and to Wallace Denny, assistant disciplinarian, for striking boy pupils with his fist. „,„„„*«,,,,„ That the salary of Will H. Miller, financial clerk, be increased from $1,000 to $1,440 per annum, and that he be retained. This is about the same salary that he has been receiving with the extra compensation heretofore paid from the athletic fund. That an order be issued whereby all boy pupils must wear their uniforms when they visit the town of Carlisle, or any other city away from the Carlisle Indian School; this to advertise that they are students of the school and prevent their obtaining liquor, That special liquor officers be sent to Carlisle, under cover, frequently, to secure evidence against bootleggers and saloonkeepers who sell liquor to the Indian boy U That proper night watchmen, white men, at least two good officers, be placed on the rolls and properly police said school grounds. , ,,.. ... , That proper fire escapes be placed on the girls' dormitory buildmg, leadmg from the second story to the ground. •.„„„, That students be not placed in the county jail, except under extenuating cncum- stances and for crimes wherein the State should step in and take charge. That certain of the industrial teachers be provided with quarters on the grounds in which to live, as are provided for the other employees That the suits and clothing of the boys be properly looked after and mended, cleaned and pressed, instead of being discarded and sold for rags as heretofore That the old worn-out mattresses be replaced . with new mattresses, and that the punils be furnished with bath towels and a sufficient number of face towels; that the bed linen be changed at least once a week, entirely, and changed oftener when found necessary. 1380 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. That the salary of Robert B. George, tinsmith, be increased. That the salary of Sadie A. Richey, assistant cook, be increased. That the salary of Elizabeth Searight, assistant seamstress, be increased. That the salary of Ramond Reneker, baker, be increased. That C. B. Bi'hney, former employee, be not reinstated. That the surplus small clothing, unnecessary at this school, be shipped to some other school. That the bill of Detective George W. Shuler be not paid. That the moneys derived from the athletic sports be handled by the superintendent and properly accounted for. Do not believe there is any justification for Supt. Friedman's charges against Roy L. Mann, teacher. While not proven, believe Supt. Friedman to be responsible for the false charges published against Gen. R. H. Pratt in the Philadelphia Ledger. That the Guvemnient ration at said school be increased because of lack of vegetables, milk, butter, eggs, etc., and that the pupils be given enough to eat; that the dining- room tables be supplied with a sufficient number of knives, spoons, cups, and dishes for each individual pupil. That the greater portion of the pork raised and fattened at said school be used on the school tables, or in lieu thereof other articles to the value of the pork sold. That the garden be increased from 6 to 80 acres. That the dairy herd be increased to double its present size. That the poultry be increased. That horticulture be engaged in; the raising of small fruits and the setting out of apple and other fruit trees. That special attention be given to the qualifications and wishes of the boys to learn the trades; that details be made for a sufficient length of time to enable the boys to learn the various trades, and that individual attention be given to the pupils. That a sufficient number of boys be detailed to the various trades and industries, and to the farms, garden, dairy, etc., to enable them to receive proper instructions and perform the work in a satisfactory manner and learn the various trades and arts. That first consideration be given to instruction in farming, gardening, dairying, etc. The members of the Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, who took the testimony at the Carlisle Indian School, join with me in the recommendation of the dismissal of Supt. Moses Friedman, Claude M. Stauffer, musical director, and the transfer of matron, Miss Anna H. Ridenour. I have not consulted with the joint commission about the other recommendations, but I feel quite sure that it is the judgment of said commission that Coach Glenn S. Warner should not be retained at said school, and I believe they would cooperate and join with me in these other recommendations as herein set forth, if they had knowledge of same. I have the honor to remain, very respectfully, your obedient servant, E. B. Linnen, Inspector. I also return herewith to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs certain papers and data which he furnished me prior to my going to Carlisle, having a bearing on this investi- gation. E. B. L. Washington, D. C, March %3, 1914. Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Dear Sir: Under instructions dated March 12, 1914, from the honorable Secretary of the Interior, I was directed to again return to Carlisle, Pa., and make a general investigation of the accounts of the United States Indian School located there, and I now have the honor to make supplemental report to my report addressed to the hon- orable Secretary of the Interior dated February 24, 1914, as follows: As stated in my original report I was suspicious that further accounts on file at the said Indian school were false, and it was my opinion that Chief Clerk S. ,T. Nori had prepared for presentation to the Government false accounts ■.nd vouchers, and that he had vouchered certain pupils a said Carlisle Indian School for railway tickets which the Government had no right to pay and had retained the moneys deposited by those certain pupils for their railway tickets. This matter of moneys derived from individual Indian or pupil's accounts involved a search of between six and seven hundred individual accounts and the checking of all transportation vouchers to ascertain whether pupils had deposited moneys for railway tickets which were afterwards vouchered to the Government. I was assisted in such checking by the financial clerk, Will H. Miller, and by Clerk Harvey K. Meyer. After several days of checking and discovering quite a number CABLISLB INDIAN SCHOOL. 1381 of false accounts and vouchers, it became apparent that certain of the records of said Carlisle Indian School were missing, some ot which we remembered having seen on prior occasions while engaged in this checking, and I became convinced that some person was engaged in destroying certain evidence with relation to these false accounts. I did succeed, however, in securh g evidence showing duplications of payments on 16 vouchers involving 39 subvouchers wherein payments had been made by the pupils to Financial Clerk Will H. Miller, and such moneys turned over by him to Chief Clerk S. J. Nori for the purchase of railway tickets for various pupils wherein the Govern- ment was not authorized to pay for such transportation. These moneys were retained by Chief Clerk Nori and governmental vouchers pre- pared and the transportation charged up to the Government in the accounts and vouchers of Superintendent M. Friedman. A list of the false vouchers and subvouchers which I prepared is embraced on four typewritten pages which I inclose herewith and mark "Exhibit A," and invite your attention to same. This list aggregates a total of 1909.59. I then put Chief Clerk S. J. Nori under oath and after a short time succeeded in obtaining his full and complete confession regarding all of these transactions. The substance of his two affidavits which I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit B," to which your attention is respectfully invited, is as follows: Chief Clerk Nori states that he has been chief clerk and had charge of the books and the preparation of the accounts and vouchers during all of Supt. M. Friedman's administration at the Carlisle Indian School. He states that he has prepared, under the direction of M. Friedman, superintendent, false vouchers and accounts for pre- sentation to the Government, and that he commenced making said false vouchers under instructions from Supt. Friedman soon after he assumed charge at said school. During vacation periods, when certain pupilB would return to then homes prior to the expiration of their term at school, they would deposit moneys for the payment of their railway tickets to and from their homes, the Government not being authorized to pay such transportation and paying only their transportation when they first came to said school for enrollment and paying their transportation home from said school after their term had expired. These moneys were deposited by the various pupils with Financial Clerk Will H. Miller, who turned over such moneys in cash to Chief Clerk S. J. Nori, who was to purchase the railway transportation for such pupils. He swears that in many instances he did not use such money so deposited by pupils and turned over to 'him by Financial Clerk Will H. Miller, but retained same and presented false vouchers to the Government for said railway transportation for these various pupils, and that a large majority of all such moneys so received from Will H. Miller, financial clerk, he turned over to Supt. M. Friedman, and at Supt. Fried- man's request prepared these false subvouchers and vouchers, and included same in the accounts of Supt. Moses Friedman, who swore to same. . Clerk Nori says that he believes he turned over between eight and nine nundrea dollars in cash to Supt. M. Friedman, which moneys he had received rom Financial Clerk Miller, same having been deposited with Financial Clerk Miller by various pupils to pay their railway transportation. Clerk Nori states that he made these false suovouchers, vouchers, and accounts with the knowledge of and at the request of Supt. Moses Friedman, who subsequently swore to said accounts and Presented them to the Government for payment. He swears that he did this at the special request of Supt. Friedman, who asked him to fix up these accounts ^ to manner and thereafter, during my investigation at said Carlisle Indian S *ool, Supt. ftiedman asked him, Nori, to fix up said accounts, knowing that they had been wrongfully prepared and presented for payment at his request. dhief Clerk Nori swears that he told Supt. Friedman he didn t think they could be fixed up now because they had been rendered but Supt. Fne dman toW himt o fix them un anvhow, and told him he was liable to be dismissed; and from the talk he had ^hSu P pt. Friedman he had the understanding that Supt.. Friedman mean for hun to destroy all evidence of receipts that were given to Financial Clerk Mlteand such nther natters as would have any bearing on the matter that he took it irom tne tall The had P w?tl SupT F riedman that he was to destroy all evidence m the nature of receiDte that would implicate either Supt. Friedman or himsel ; and that following outtt t undemanding with Supt Friedman he .^ ce^ rec^^d Gov«i^nt r.ar.e™ from the official files of the financial clerk's office and destroyed tne same, tS he searched these records on two various evenings after office hours, went through Frfedman that he had gotten away with the evidence and had destroyed it. 1382 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Chief Clerk Nori says he would not have taken and destroyed these Government receipts and papers except at the suggestion, encouragement, and request of Supt. M. Friedman. Chief Clerk Nori also states that he prepared for presentation to the Government false vouchers and accounts at the request of Supt. M. Friedman which were for his, Friedman's, personal accounts and traveling expenses, knowing at the time that Supt. Friedman was using mileage bought and paid for by the funds of the Athletic Association of the Carlisle Indian School. Chief Clerk Nori testifies that when Supt. Friedman and his wife made their west- ern trip to California some two or three years ago that he prepared vouchers at the request of Supt. Friedman to cover his personal expenses on said trip, which included transportation purchased by the Carlisle Athletic Association funds. He also swear's that he prepared at the request of Supt. Friedman false vouchers and accounts including railway transportation for certain students who never made the trips or used the transportation. He testifies that the amount of moneys which Supt. Friedman would likely get credit for from the Government by reason of having presented false vouchers in his accounts for transportation of pupils which had never been purchased or used would likely aggregate more than $500. He also swears that certain vouchers show tickets for certain pupils to read to places other than their homes, where tickets were not procured, which were vouchered' to the Government. He swears specifically that the items falsely vouchered as con- tained on "Exhibit A" herewith were prepared by Mm under the direction of Supt. M. Friedman. He testifies that 18 or 20 receipts which he destroyed contained probably as many as 250 names of pupils whose railway tickets had been vouchered to the Government, and these lists or receipts would aggregate from $150 to $350 each, and that probably one-half of the names were the names of pupils who had deposited money to pay for railway transportation whose transportation was vouchered and paid, for by the Government. He believes that transportation so vouchered, the names of which were contained on these receipts which he destroyed would probably aggregate' $600 or S700; that some of the tickets would run from $30 to 550 each according to the location of pupils in the West. He believes the total aggregate of moneys turned over to him by Financial Clerk Miller and the moneys which were received by the superin- tendent for rendering Government vouchers for tickets which were never purchased would aggregate from $1,500 to $2,000. He states that the large majority of this money, practically all, with the exception of about a hundred dollars which he believes his wife, Mrs. Nori, once used on a western trip, and moneys for postage, car fare, and incidental expenses which he personally spent, in all aggregating probably $200, and the other moneys so received were turned over to Supt. '"M." Friedman. Chief Clerk Nori also swears that about $200 turned over to him by the quartermas- ter, August Kensler, which were class-4 funds derived from the sale of rags, old iron, bones, etc., was never entered on the books or accounts of Supt. Friedman, but such moneys were turned over to Supt. Friedman by him. He also swears that he knows that Quartermaster August Kensler paid about $270 out of such class-4 funds for fur- niture for Supt. Friedman's house, said funds never having been turned over to him as chief clerk by Quartermaster Kensler and never having "been accounted for to the Government. He also swears that certain curtains, rugs, furniture, electric fixtures of various kinds, which were for Supt. Friedman's house were vouchered to the Government as being purchased for guest rooms, etc., when they were for Supt. Friedman's personal use- that these amounts would aggregate $200 or $?;00. He further swears that during the time of Inspector McLaughlin's visit at Carlisle School about three years ago that he had at that time between $500 and $000 cash on hand which was in an envelope in the safe in his office, which moneys had been re- ceived irom Will H. Miller, financial clerk, to purchase tickets for various pupils and a portion ot such moneys from August Kensler, quartermaster, from the sale of Govern- ment property such as rags, bones, old iron, copper, etc., which should have been class-4 funds but were never so deposited or taken upon Government accounts; and that at the request of Supt. M. Friedman he made an itemized list of these moneys showing from what source received and for what purpose and turned said moneys over to Supt. M. Friedman; that he did not take receipts frcm £i:pt. Friedman for the moneys he turned over to him on this and other occasions. Supt. Friedman told him he would hold this money until Inspector McLaughlin left, and that he has never seen any of it since and he does not know what disposition he made of it. He states tnat it was his custom at the end of each month to (.urn over to Supt. Friedman the m °5 e /s £? h , ad received from Financial Clerk Miller for the purchase of railway tickets. Chief Clerk Nori states that after destroying these Government records at the request ot bupt. id. Friedman he advised said Friedman of same and told him he had destroved CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1383 When it became known to Supt. M. Friedman, or he suspected that Chief Clerk Nori had confessed to me, and knowing well that it implicated himself, Supt. M. Friedman had a warrant sworn out for the arrest of Chief Clerk Nori, charging him with embezzle- ment of several hundred dollars and also with destroying Government records. Chief Clerk Nori was arrested and taken before a justice of the peace in the borough of Car- lisle and his bond fixed at $1,000, which was given, and he is now out on bail. Supt. Friedman also had a search warrant gotten out for the searching of the premises of Chief Clerk Nori for the Government papers and records which Chief Clerk Nori had burned up and had, as he states, informed Supt. Friedman that he had destroyed same. The case is set for a hearing before Justice of the Peace Hughes, of Carlisle, at 10 o'clock a. m., March 26. It is my belief and best judgment that inasmuch as these are Government accounts and Government records which were destroyed that the local and State courts of Pennsylvania have no jurisdiction. It is also my belief that Supt. M. Friedman was wholly unwarranted in swearing out a warrant for the arrest of Chief Clerk Nori for embezzlement and having a search warrant issued to search his house for missing records, the matter being one entirely for the Government to act in. It would thus appear that Supt. M. Friedman is trying to becloud the issue; trying to take the jurisdiction out of the hands of the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Department of Justice, and trying to prejudice the public against Chief Clerk Nori and to discredit him in every way, being fearful that Chief Clerk Nori, who has confessed, will act as a witness against him if this matter ever comes to an issue. Quartermaster Kensler made affidavit before me under oath, in which he states in substance that during the years 1908, 1909, and 1910 that he knows that there were certain moneys which were derived from the sale of rags, bones, iron, etc., which he turned over to Chief Clerk Nori that were never taken up in the accounts.- He also swears that out of this class of moneys, which was properly class 4 moneys and which was not accounted for by Supt. Friedman, that he paid the sum of $271 out of such funds in cash for certain furniture for Supt. Friedman's house. He swears that the moneys derived from such Government sales, which were class 4 moneys, which were not taken up on the books and accounts of Supt. Friedman would aggregate between $400 and $500. Quartermaster Kensler also testifies that other class 4 moneys which should have been received and accounted for from the sale of cement sacks, etc., were not taken up, but that the money from such sales was used to purchase articles for use in the carpenter shop, and that this would amount to between $50 and $60; that this trans- action was had with Bixler & Sons, hardware dealers of Carlisle, Pa. This affidavit of Quartermaster Kensler I inclose herewith and mark "Exhibit C," and invite your attention to same. In my search of the receipts of the Carlisle Athletic Association, I found further mileage and railway transportation which had been purchased for M. Friedman, superintendent, not mentioned in my former report, as follows: Mileage and transportation purchased of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. for Supt. M. Friedman, and paid for from the funds of the Carlisle Athletic Association. Dec. 20, 1908, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 771439 $20.00 Oct. 5, 1909, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 18789 20. 00 Dec. 5, 1909, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 104637 20.00 Oct. 19, 1909, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 104180 20.00 Oct. -19, 1909, 2 tickets, Carlisle, Pa., to New Paltz 14. 02 Feb. 18, 1910, 2 1,000-mileage books, No. 125133-125134 40. 00 Mar. 3, 1910, 1 1,000-mileage book 20.00 July 17, 1910, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 309099 _ 20.00 July 19, 1910, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 309625 (paid by athletic association check No. 2092) 20. 00 Sept. 24, 1910, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 298486 - - - - - - 20. 00 Sept. 24, 1910, 1 ticket, Carlisle, Pa., to Louisville, Ky. (paid by athletic association check No. 2154) - - - - - - - - ----- - - - - - - - - - - - u - bs Oct 14 1910 1 1 000-mileage book, No. 458130 (paid by check, athletic association, No. 2221) 20.00 Oct. 17, 1910, 2 1,000-mileage books, No. 458143-458144. . . . . . ---------- 40 - 00 Oct. 17 1910! 2 tickets, Carlisle, Pa., to New Paltz, N. Y. (paid by check, Athletic Association, No. 2221) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -. .- - - - - 14 - ^ Nov 5 1910, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 458414 (paid by athletic association check No. 2260) ; - - - : : - v ---;-" y V T ' ' U- W Jan. 16, 1911, 1 1,000-mileage book (paid by athletic association check No. noci \ &"• U" Feb. 11," 1911,' 1 l,bbb-mileage book. No 572318 20. 00 Oct. 3, 1912, 2 tickets, round trip, Carlisle, Pa., to Columbus, Ohio 43. 12 1384 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. The accounts of the Carlisle Athletic Association also show that the sum of $56.86 was turned over by Financial Clerk Will H. Miller to Chief Clerk S. J. Nori by Athletic Association check No. 2412, to pay for two railroad tickets for Supt. Friedman and wife, from Carlisle, Pa. , to Lawrence, Kans. ; at the same time the Government voucher No. 179, of the third quarter, 1911, shows that Supt. Friedman charged this transporta- tion for himself, viz, the sum of $28.43 to the Government, and collected payment for same, when this amount was paid to him by the Carlisle Athletic Association funds. The railroad transportation above noted aggregates a sum total of $407.84, which, together with mileage purchased for Supt. M. Friedman from athletic association funds, is embraced in my original report, aggregating a Bum of $580, is $987.84 all told, transportation which was bought for Supt. M. Friedman from Carlisle Athletic Association funds, expenses for some of which traveling he vouchered to the Govern- ment. I inclose also Cumberland Valley Railroad bills for transportation furnished Gus Welsh, Sam Bird, James Thorpe, Peter Jordan, and Joel Wheelock, football players, aggregating a sum total of S270.94. These additional bills of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. for transportation are attached together and marked as one exhibit, being Exhibit "D." Inasmuch as the majority of these mileage books delivered to Supt. Friedman are numbered 1 am well satisfied that if I were again to check with the auditor's office of the Cumberland Valley and Pennsylvania Railroads, I could show that some of this mileage was used by Supt. Friedman for further trips and transportation which he has vouchered the Government. While making a further investigation of the bills rendered to the Carlisle Athletic Association, I discovered the following additional expenditures for Supt. M. Friedman: July 13, 1910, The Outlook for Mr. Friedman $3. 00 July 13, 1910, The Sentinel for Mr. Friedman 6. 25 Paid by athletic association checks No. 2071-2072. Mr. Friedman's expenses to Washington, May 16-17, paid by athletic associa- tion check No. 3377 22. 00 Annual dues for M. Friedman to American Association for the Advancement of Science, paid by athletic association check No. 3599 3. 00 Expenses of M. Friedman to Washington, Mar. 4 and 5, 1913, paid by athletic association check No. 3279 26. 00 New York Times for M. Friedman, paid by athletic association check No. 3249" 8 50 December, 1912, expenses of M. Friedman to Philadelphia, for Pullman, meals, theater tickets, etc., paid by athletic association check No. 3172 22 00 Volume of "Who's Who in America," A. N. Marquis & Co., Chicago, 111., "for M. Friedman, paid by athletic association check No. 3024 4 75 Dues of M. Friedman to the National Society of Industrial Education, paid by athletic association check No. 2849 2. 00 Nov. 21, 1911, expenses, M. Friedman to Harvard game at Boston 48 00 Expenses, M. Friedman, football season, 1910, paid by athletic association check No. 2314 211 00 Feb. 5 1912, New York Times for M. Friedman, paid by athletic association check No. 2857 g cq Expenses to Columbus, Ohio, Society of American Yndi~ans,'M~.* Friedman "(por- tion of this expense is Hotel Raleigh bill, Washington, D. C ) paid bv athletic association check No. 3138 75 65 Nov 3, 1911, M. Friedman, Bellevue-Stratford Hotel", Philadelphia', "paid" bv ' ' athletic association check No. 2747 55 00 Nov 15, 1912, M. Friedman, Bellevue-Stratford Hotel," Philadelphia", "paid" by athletic association check No. 3139 69 20 Expense to Philadelphia, M. Friedman, July 17-18 17' 00 Expense to Philadelphia, M. Friedman, July 9; to Washington July 12 and 13 '. 22. 00 Nov. 30 and Dec. 1, expense to Philadelphia 24 00 Jan. 26, 27, and 28, expense M. Friedman to Washington. 27 00 Jan. 3, 1910, M. Friedman, Piper's Book Store, Carlisle, daily and Sunday papers 4 75 A check No 2 '2929 Friedmai1 ' expense to Washin gton", "paid" by athieticassociation Dec 16, 1911, M. Friedman, expense to Washington," paid'by athletic associ- ation check No. 2848 ..... ... 42 20 exhi h b?t e "E" ti0nal expense accounts : attach together and mark as one exhibit, being CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1385 mL?^T in - C l, 08e t tW0 l ece k U ^v^S *e character of some of the papers which Chief Sit «?F?' destroyed ' These * attach tQ g ether ^d mark as one eS^eing ex- wA 1 !? 68 ? t^Supt- M. Friedman and Musical Director Claude M. Stauffer have been busy trying to have employees and pupils on the grounds sign papers which thev S'5l M$ Tnt 63 ^ t0 ?T. ure si g ners t0 his Petitions^ favor .f tv,o P ^ f d Clau { d f M - Stauffer marie himself quite obnoxious to a majority of the employees and some of the students, who threatened to throw him off the grounds it he persisted in his actions. 6 Miss Anna M Ridnour, the girls' matron, took Julia Hardin out of line one evening when she should have gone to the study room and brought her to her room in the girls' building. This is the same young lady who was cruelly whipped by Claude M. Staf- fer and who has heretofore testified before the joint congressional committee and mj Jni juof? 11 s ' ^ 1S ? Rld nour's, room that evening was this notary public and Claude M Stauffer, and also a stenographer, Miss Herman. Miss Julia says that when she went into Miss Ridnour's room she was directed to sign a paper which had all been written out; that Miss Ridnour directed her to do so; that she did not read it; that it was not read to her; and she did not know the contents of said paper. Subsequently on two occasions Miss Ridenour, the matron, again brought Julia Hardin to her room and tried to have her sign an additional statement in favor of Claude M. Stauffer, bandmaster, who had whipped her, which statement Miss Julia Hardin states as prepared for her signature was untrue. They cautioned her to say nothing about the matter. She refused to sign any additional papers and does not know the contents of the first paper which she signed. They told her they had de- stroyed the paper which she originally signed and wanted her to sign this additional paper which they had prepared, the contents of which she said was untrue, as it contained many statements which were false. She stated that Miss Ridenour told her that I, the inspector, had told her (Miss Ridenour) everything that she (Julia Hardin) had testified to before the joint congres- sional committee and myself and told here that the statement she made before 'said committee and myself under oath was false, and they used this and other means to induce her to sign a statement the contents of which was untrue and known by them to be untrue, as same contained statements, she says, even to the effect that Mr. Whitwell, the principal, had kicked her. She states that since she refused to comply with the request of the matron, Miss Ridenour, that she has been treated unjustly and cruelly by her and has been degraded ; has had her conduct card returned as being poor, and in other ways she has shown her displeasure toward this pupil. Julia Hardin states that she was not sworn to by the notary public or any other per- son when she signed the original paper at the request of the matron, Miss Ridenour, which they told her they had destroyed. I took the affidavit of Miss Julia Hardin covering this matter which I inclose here- with for your information and mark "Exhibit G," and invite your attention to same. From the foregoing it appears that the matron, Miss Ridenour, has been unduly active in attempting to coerce Miss Julia Hardin into signing papers in the interest of Bandmaster Stauffer, who whipped her, knowing well when she was doing so that Julia Hardin had testified before the joint congressional committee and myself, and I can not refrain from saying that such conduct on her part is reprehensible and that she should be properly censured for same. I further desire to emphasize the fact that the sooner that this matron, Miss Ridenour, is transferred from Carlisle the better it will be for said school. The principal, John Whitwell, filed with me a letter dated Carlisle, Pa., March 18, 1914, with relation to the procuring of the signing of Julia Hardin by the matron, Miss Ridenour, and the action of Clarence Liggett, the notary public, in trying to secure signers at the Carlisle Indian School. This letter I mark "Exhibit H." Gus Welsh, one of the football boys, made affidavit before me with relation to the letter signed by James Thorpe, former Carlisle student, with relation to his being a professional athlete, which letter he states was prepared by Coach G. S. Warner and Supt. M. Friedman. This affidavit I mark "Exhibit I." Miss Herman, stenographer, also made affidavit with relation to Clerk Nori, which affidavit I inclose and mark "Exhibit J." I inclose 29 slips showing payments of various pupils as turned over by Financial Clerk Will H. Miller to Chief Clerk S. J. Nori, which were vouched to and paid by the Government after these moneys had been paid by the pupils for their transporta- tion and turned over to said Nori. These 29 slips I attach together and mark as "Exhibit K." 1386 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. I also inclose letter from the Pennsylvania Railroad Co., dated Philadelphia, Feb- ruary 24, 1914, addressed to Mr. M. Friedman, signed by H. P. Conner, assistant treas- urer, which has attached thereto individual Indian money check No. 20950, dated July 16, 1913, drawn in favor of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. in the sum of $8.68, signed by James Bearchild. The letter attached to this check explains itself. The money had once been paid to the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. for this ticket, and they would not indorse the check for second payment and return same to M. Friedman. As stated by Chief Clerk Nori in his affidavit before me, if this check had been indorsed by the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. and returned to Supt. Friedman he prob- ably would have retained such moneys for his own personal use and benefit. This letter with check attached I mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit L." I checked from the cash book at said Indian school the amount of moneys which have been paid to outsiders for employment as carpenters, painters, steam fitters, and laborers from January 1, 1913, to January 31, 1914, a period of 13 months, and find that the sum of $6,539 was paid for such outside help, when this work should very prop- erly have been performed by the pupils at said school and they to have received the benefit of the instruction and trades. Instead of so doing, these young men who should have been learning these trades and had the benefit of this work were working on farms in the vicinity of Carlisle at a nominal wage, while over $6,500 of the Gov- ernment's funds was paid out for such work. This statement of such payments, ag- gregating $6,539, I inclose, and mark "Exhibit M." By letter dated Carlisle, Pa., March 21, 1914, 55 of the boys of the Carlisle Athletic Association addressed a letter to Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, protesting against the further employment of Athletic Director Glen S. Warner, for the reasons — 1. That he possesses a weak moral character. 2. That he continually uses profane and abusive language in the presence of the boys. 3. That the way in which he performs his duties, the small amount of instruction that he gives the boys, is not in proportion to the large salary that he is paid. 4. That the attitude he has shown toward the school, the influence and method that he has employed for the purpose of Mr. Friedman's retention as head of this institution, is injurious to the school and detrimental to good discipline among the student body. 5. That he has proven himself selfish, abolishing branches of athletics that he was not capable of coaching, such as baseball and basket ball. 6. That he in one instance used the football team for the purpose of gambling, bet- ting heavily in the Dartmouth-Carlisle game, giving the boys a small per cent of the money which he had won. 7. That he is at the head of the athletic association in which the boys are supposed to have a voice, but through his influence and suppression they have been deprived of that privilege. 8. That he, as president of the association, has failed to perform his duty, as he allowed the officers of the same organization to use the association's money for their own enjoyment and for the entertainment of their friends. 9. That as a result of the foregoing statements we hold him to be dishonest and we can not respect him, holding him to be an incompetent leader. This petition is signed by the leading football and athletic boys at said Carlisle Indian School, 55 in number. In view of the foregoing, I again respectfully submit that Coach G. S. Warner is not a proper person to continue in the employment of said school as coach. This letter I inclose herewith and mark "Exhibit N." The foregoing additional evidence proves conclusively that further false accounts have been submitted by Supt. M.Friedman, and the sworn testimony of Chief Clerk Nori is that he prepared said false vouchers and accounts under the direction of Supt. M. Friedman and that he also took from the files of said office official papers and burned them,*also at the request of Supt. Friedman. The accounts of which I have absolute proof as contained in Exhibit "A" amount to $909.59, for which false vouch- ers have been rendered. Chief Clerk Nori testifies that he had prepared vouchers and false accounts which would aggregate from $1,500 to $2,000 under the instructions of the superintendent. In relation to Chief Clerk Nori I have to say I am advised that he has been at the Carlisle Indian School since he has been a little boy 6 years of age; that he received his education and training at said institution. He is a full-blood Indian, belonging to the Laguna, New Mexico pueblo. He, like most other Indians, has followed blindly the _ instructions of his superintendent and did largely as he was directed to do. While he is by no means blameless and is implicated in making these false accounts and vouchers and has admitted using some of such moneys for himself and his wife, CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1387 S?,T^#riS ly th ??h TH porti011 of 8aid mone y s was tur ^d over by Mm to Sugg^S M? USX** G0Vemment PaPerS ^ deStr ° yed *» at *»"*«* Supt Friedman now attempts to make him the "goat" by having him arrested for rttfafq" 1 ? W^S 8 hl8 P remis es searched under a search Arrant when as a matter of fact Supt. M. Friedman has no evidence other than his own guilty conscience with relation to these false accounts and vouchers which have blen premred by Chief Clerk Nori under his direction. The search warrant was also a blindfasIbXve 7 to throw dust in the eyes of the community, because Chief Clerk Nori states positively under oath that he had informed Supt. Friedman that he had destroyed these Gov^ ernment papers as he had requested .ISr^ 110 ™]^ Ch i ef £ lerk S - J - Nori should be suspended at once and undoubtedly dismissed from the Government service, and I have the honor to rec- ommend that indictments be secured against the guilty parties as here noted, if the facts herein presented will warrant, as I believe to be justifiable I inclose also triplicate copies of false vouchers filed by Supt. M. Friedman as. follows: Voucher No. 2, fourth quarter, 1908. Voucher No. 2, second quarter, 1909. Voucher No. 2, third quarter, 1909. Voucher No. 2, fourth quarter, 1909. Voucher No. 2, first quarter, 1910. Voucher No. 2, second quarter, 1910. Voucher No. 2, third quarter, 1910. Voucher No. 2, fourth quarter, 1910. Voucher No. 2, first quarter, 1911. Voucher No. 2, second quarter, 1911. Voucher No. 179, third quarter, 1911. Voucher No. 2, fourth quarter, 1911. Voucher No. 2, second quarter, 1912. Voucher No. 2, third quarter, 1912. Voucher No. 2, third quarter, 1913. Voucher No. 12, third quarter, 1913. Voucher No. 2, fourth quarter, 1913. » These 17 vouchers I tie together and mark as one exhibit, being Exhibit 0. I have the honor to remain, Very respectfully, your obedient servant, E. B. Linnen, Chief Inspector Indian Service. ATHLETIC FUNDS. The rules and regulations of the Indian Office, approved by the Secretary of the Interior, which have the force and effect in law, specifically provide that the athletic funds be taken up in Class IV funds by the superintendent and special disbursing agent at each Indian school, and on each Indian reservation. Under heading of Class IV funds, paragraph 289, in parentheses (g) appears the following: "(g) School entertainments, band concerts, athletic contests, sales of curios or fancy articles manufactured by pupils, subscriptions to school journals or adver- tising therefrom, job prinling, or any other like enterprise." "No. 290. These funds should be taken up in the accounts as miscellaneous receipts, Class IV, agency; or miscellaneous receipts, Class IV, school, as appropriate. They may be held by disbursing officers for expenditure as provided in the succeeding section, and not to be covered into the Treasury except on a change of disbursing officers, or the filing of a now bond, when they must be deposited to the credit of the United States." The last order pertaining to these miscellaneous receipts, Class IV, covering spe- cifically moneys derived from athletic contests, is amendment No. 30 to the regula- tions, dated Washington, May 16, 1910, approved by the Hon. Secretary of the Inte- rior, June 14, 1910, and has been on file in the superintendent's office, Carlisle, Pa., at all times since said date. Section 242 of the Begulations of the Indian Office provides that "Public funds of all classes, no matter from what source received, must be immediately taken up in the agent's accounts. No expenditures whatsoever shall be made therefrom except , by the authority of the department." Section 250 and Revised Statutes, section 258, provides that, "If an agent deposits any public money in any place not designated for the purpose by the Secretary of the 1388 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. Treasury, or unlawfully converts loans, transfers, or applies public money, he will be deemed guilty of embezzlement and shall be punished by imprisonment at hard labor for not less than lor more than 10 years," etc. Amendment No. 30 to the regulations, dated May 16, 1910, approved by the hon- orable Secretary of the Interior, provides among other things that " Funds coming into the hands of disbursing officers from miscellaneous sources are divided into the following classes and must all be taken up and accounted for in compliance with the act of July 1, 1898 (30 Stat. L., 595), which provides that hereafter Indian agents shall account for all funds coming into their hands as custodians from any source whatever, and be responsible therefor under their official bonds. Amendment No. 28 to accounts, dated March 23, 1909, provides: "Each Indian agent shall keep a book of itemized expenditures of every kind, with a record of all contracts, together with the receipts of moneys from all sources, and the books thus kept shall always be open to inspection, and the said books shall remain in the office, * * * not to be removed from said reservation by said agent, but be safely kept and handed over to his successor * * *. Should any agent knowingly make a false entry in said books, or shall knowingly fail to keep a perfect entry in said books, as herein described, he shall be deemed guilty of misdemeanor, and for conviction by United States courts having jurisdiction of such offense, shall be fined," etc. United States Statutes at Large, volume 36, part 1, page 1335, provides that falsifi- cation of accounts and making false reports by any officer, clerk, agent, or other person of any Government account, is guilty of felony, punishable by 10 years at hard labor. This is chapter 270, relating to Government employees. This act was approved March 4, 1911. February 9, 1914. Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D .C. Mr. Commissioner: Some time ago, at the request of this commission, Inspector E. B. Linnen went to Carlisle, Pa., to investigate conditions prevailing in the Carlisle Indian School. A number of complaints had been filed against the management and conduct of the institution. On Friday last this commission visited Carlisle, made an inspection, and took testimony of a large number of witnesses, including several students and employees of the institution and citizens of the town of Carlisle. We regret to say that the affairs of this institution are in many respects unsatisfactory, and call your attention to same in detail, as follows: 1. The relationship between Supt. Friedman and the pupils generally appears to be strained and unfriendly. The same is true as to the feeling between the super- intendent and the majority of the employees. The testimony is conflicting as to the causes of this. Much of the evidence tends to show that the superintendent is unsympathetic and overbearing in his conduct "toward the pupils. There is also testimony indicating that this attitude on the part of the pupils is encouraged by some of the employees. On some occasions large numbers of pupils have publicly hooted and jeered at the superintendent, calling him "Mose" and "Old Jew," and using other expressions of contempt. The super- intendent seems to have lost the respect of the student body, and is unable to exer- cise a wholesome influence over them. 2. The general condition in the Carlisle institute as to discipline is unsatisfactory; there are now many cases of drinking among the pupils and occasional instances of intoxication which are very demoralizing in their influence. There are a large num- ber of saloons in the town of Carlisle. Some of the pupils in the school have so little Indian blood that it is difficult to distinguish them from white persons, and it is claimed that these pupils are able to buy whisky and furnish it to the other pupils who are disposed to drink. The evidence discloses that many of the pupils who drink to excess have acquired the habit before entering the school. There is little effort to police the grounds. Many of the pupils secretly and in violation of the regulations go to town at night in citizens' clothing. Sometimes pupils appear in an intoxicated condition on the school premises. It would seem imperative that safeguards be taken to prevent the admission to the school of pupils who are in the habit of drinking. In this connection it is proper to state, however, that there has always been more or less drinking among the pupils. It appears to be more common now than heretofore . 3. There are many instances of flagrant immoral conduct among the pupils at Car- lisle. Male and female pupils meet clandestinely, sometimes in the girls' quarters. A large number of female pupils have been expelled on this account. In some instances where expulsions were in fact made for this reason the records of the school appear to indicate that the pupil failed to return or was discharged for other reasons. This is one of the perplexing and important problems connected with the discipline CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1389 in tie school. The superintendent thinks there are not more cases of this character than occur in any coeducational institution. The commission, however, regard this as erroneous. 4. Especial attention is called to the case of Ethel Williams and Paul Jones, who were arrested on a warrant procured by the disciplinarian of the Carlisle School, Mr. McKean, on a charge of fornication. These two pupils were placed in the county jail. They entered pleas of guilty and were sentenced to confinement for a period of 60 days. The laws of the State of Pennsylvania do not authorize imprisonment for this offense. The whole proceeding appears to have been irregular and indeed in violation of law. Paul Jones was confined for 70 days, and some information has reached the commission that during the entire time he was not provided with a change of clothing. Immediately upon the expiration of the jail sentence both pupils were sent away from the school. 5. Another instance which we regard as worthy of mention is the case of a pupil who was arrested on an affidavit sworn out by Principal Teacher Whitwal and confined in the jail, we believe, for a period of 30 days for " stealing ' ' pies. The arrest in both of these cases were ordered by Supt. Friedman. 6. Especial attention is also called to the case of Julia Hardin, a pupil about 18 years old, who has an excellent record. She had agreed to go on an outing into the country, and when the matron instructed her to go she declined to do so on the ground that she was not provided with a trunk. Some delay was had, and the matron again in- structed her to prepare to go on the outing. The young lady declined, and the matron attempted to coerce her. Bandmaster Stauffer, who is not directly connected with the discipline in the school, informed Supt. Friedman that he thought the girl ought to be "spanked," and the superintendent acquiesced in the suggestion, although he stated he was opposed to corporal punishment in any case. Mr. Stauffer, in company with the matron and one other employee, took Miss Hardin in a room, closed the blinds, and urged her to go on the outing. She refused, and Mr. Stauffer slapped her. Ac- cording to his statement, she dropped down on her knees, he spanked her, pushed her over on the floor, and whipped her with a stick. According to his statement, he struck her 10 or 12 times. According to her statement, he threw her on the floor a number of times, struck her in the face with the stick, beating her very severely, and striking her 40 or 50 times. Principal Teacher Whitwal was sent for and had little trouble in persuading her to yield. She was confined in the lockup. While Miss Hardin was not without fault, we think that Mr. Staufl'er's conduct must be severely condemned. It is in evidence that the girl offered no physical resistance, but was merely stubborn, and did not desire to go on the outing. When she went into the country, information preceded her which caused her employer to inform her that she would be given no privileges and was under suspicion. It appears, however, that she succeeded in endearing herself to the family. 7. The management of the school is inefficient. This appears to be true as to every department. The superintendent regards vocational training as one of the strong features of the work. It is totally unsatisfactory to us. Harness making, instruction in telegraphy and in agriculture have been discontinued, save with the school farms, which are presumed to be run as a demonstration farm. As to demonstrations on the farm, the farmers in charge of the same testified that it is wholly inefficient and that the pupils are detailed to perform this work as a kind of penalty for some misconduct. There is absolutely no effort to stimulate a love of agriculture among the pupils. When one becomes proficient in any of the trades, he is frequently detailed to other work, and thus loses all interest. This is true as to the carpenter's shop, the tinner's shop, the paint shop, the show shop, and the bakery. The instructors in charge of these various departments say they have frequently complained to the disciplinarian and to the superintendent that the pupils detailed to this work should be permitted to complete their training, but in spite of their complaints the management of the school persists in a policy which makes it impossible for many of the pupils to sue- ppqofii 1 1 "\r lpfl,T*T\ 3, 1"TF|,(iG The value of the system of outing has been exaggerated. While in many instances it has no doubt proven beneficial, we do not think that pupils who are interested in trades should be detailed to farm work or sent upon outing where no opportunity is afforded them to continue the study of their trade. The school garden is inadequate. No reason appears why ample supplies of garden products should not be produced for the use of the school. The gardener takes this view of the matter, and it appears that the supply of last year was inadequate As an illustration of the absurd policy prevailing as to the farm, it appears that the soil is depleted and becoming less productive. These farms, as now operated, have prac- tically no demonstration value to the school. 1390 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 8. It is the opinion of some who have given study to the subject, including Dr. .E. ,A- Knobel, president of Dickinson College, that class instruction in the school does hot approximate a high standing. 9. The commission, with the very able assistance of Inspector E. B. Linne, in- vestigated and checked the athletic account. This is controlled by the executive committee of the athletic association, which is a corporation. The executive com- mittee appears to be the superintendent of the school, the athletic director, Mr. Warner, and the treasurer of the athletic association, Mr. William Miller. The accounts appear to be very accurately kept, but the disbursement and expenditures are open to very grave criticism. 10. It appears that the superintendent has falsified his accounts in this: While actually traveling to and from the city of Washington on mileage books purchased from the athletic fund and furnished him free of cost, he has, for the same trips, charged his transportation expenses to the Government in his accounts as superintendent and disbursing agent. This appears from the records of the treasurer of the athletic associa- tion and the records in the office of the auditor for the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. and the Pennsylvania Railroad. 11. The matron, Miss Ridenour, in charge of the large girl pupils, is earnest in her work, and appears to be prompted by good motives. She, however, inspired the beat- ing of Miss Hardin by Bandmaster Stauffer, and was present assisting in the same. She is harsh and unkindly in her demeanor toward the pupils, and as a result of this the relationship between the pupils and the said matron is strained and unfriendly to such an extent that it is doubtful whether her continuance in the service there will be for the good of the institution . Upon a consideration of the whole case, the joint commission recommends that Supt. Friedman and Bandmaster Stauffer be suspended and tried. We further recommend due consideration be given to the advisability of reprimanding Miss Ridenour and transferring her. These recommendations are concurred in by all members of the commission who were present. Very truly, Joe T. Robinson, Chairman,. V 1 OSAGE RESERYATIOISr HEARINGS BEFOKE THE 1/ JOINT COMMISSION OF THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES SIXTY-THIRD CONGRESS SECOND SESSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS * MARCH 9, 1914 PAET 12 Printed for the use of the Joint Commission ■WASHINGTON GOVEBNMENT PRINTING OFFICE MM t 73 U6>±3y JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS. Congress of the United States. Senators : Representatives : JOE T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas. HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma. CHARLES B. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota. R. B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary. Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk, n 184352B OSAGE RESERVATION. MONDAY, MARCH 9, 1914. Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, Washington, D. G. The joint commission met in the committee room of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Robinson (chairman), Lane, and Townsend and Representative Stephens. TESTIMONY OF MR. JAMES ALBERT CARROLL. SUPERINTENDENT OF THE OSAGE INDIAN RESERVATION, OKLA. (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) The Chairman. You are the superintendent of the Osage (Okla.) Agency, I believe, Mr. Carroll? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have you served in that capacity? Mr. Carroll. Since the 18th of July, 1912. The Chairman. How long have you been in the Indian Service, all told? Mr. Carroll. Secretary Hoke Smith appointed me in 1895— De- cember. The Chairman. What other positions did you hold before you be- came superintendent of the Osage Agency? Mr. Carroll. I was appointed to a clerkship by Secretary Smith, in charge of the Indian warehouse at Valentine, Nebr. That was my original appointment. That was a station where we received all the supplies consigned to the Rosebud Agency, S. Dak. I received those supplies and shipped them out to the agency by wagon. After nearly two years in charge of that warehouse I was sent to the Pottawatomie Agency, in Kansas, where I served about a year. The Chairman. As superintendent? Mr. Carroll. As clerk— chief clerk. Thence to the Ponca Agency, Okla., in the same capacity— clerk— where I served about six months. Thence to the Kiowa Agency, Okla., in the same capacity, where 1 served about two years and a half. Then I was appointed, or pro- moted I should say, to the position of superintendent of the Mes- calero Agency, N. Mex., where I remained 11 years I went from the Mescllero to my present position as superintendent of the Osage. The Chairman. Do you know the total number of Indians under your jurisdiction as superintendent of the Osage Agency? Mr. Carroll. I do not, Senator. 1392 OSAGE RESERVATION. The Chairman. Do you know about how many? Mr. Carroll. The total number allotted — what we called the ap- proved roll— contains the names of 2,230. Of course, a good many of those are dead, and the children born since allotments have no properties other than that they have inherited The Chairman. When was that roll closed? Mr. Carroll. In 1906, I think. The Chairman. There have been no allotments since that time? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. Could you state approximately now how many Indians are under your jurisdiction ?_ Mr. Carroll. I should say approximately 2,000. The Chairman. What is the area of that reservation, Mr. Carroll ? Mr. Carroll. The present Osage County was originally the Osage Indian Reservation, embracing an area of approximately a million and a half acres. Osage County was created out of the Osage Indian Reservation, as I recall it. The Chairman. Your headquarters are located where? Mr. Carroll. At Pawhuska. The Chairman. What is the general condition of the Osage Indians — I think that would indicate in a general way what I want to know. Are they prosperous ? Mr. Carroll. That is a very broad question, Senator. I might answer that by saying that I consider the Osage Indians cursed with wealth and cursed with special legislation. The Chairman. Now, you say they are cursed with wealth. What property do they own, in a general way? As a matter of fact, they are about the richest Indians in tribal funds and resources that we have, are they not ? Mr. Carroll. I think they are regarded as the richest people per capita in the world. I have been so informed. The Chairman. Do you know about what their per capita wealth is? Mr. Carroll. It is impossible to determine that at present. They have an immense area, over 800,000 acres of land, that has never been leased for oil and gas mining purposes; and if it is as rich in minerals as that part that has already been exploited — at least partly exploited — they are certainly very rich people. The Chairman. What part of it has been exploited, approxi- mately, since you have been connected with the agency ? Mr. Carroll. Mining operations, since I have been connected with the agency, have been very limited. Most of the lands had already been drilled on, you know. That is, the operations under the Foster lease — what we sometimes call the "blanket lease" — there has not been a great deal of development under that lease since I have been connected with the agency. The Chairman. Very little operation? Mr. Carroll. Under the blanket lease. The Chairman. What is that? Do you know ? Mr. Carroll. I believe the operators claim that they can not afford to pursue active development when they have such a short tenure of lease. The Chairman. When is the expiration of their lease? Do you know ? u»A(iJii KESEK.VATION. 1393 Mr. Carroll. I believe it expires the 16th of March, 1916. The Chairman. Do you know how long the lease was for ? Mr. Carroll. The lease was for 10 years. The lease was made originally during the administration of Mr. Cleveland. The Chairman. What was the area of the Foster lease ? Mr. Carroll. The original lease in 1895 embraced the entire reser- vation. But the renewal 10 years after that, in 1905, covered approxi- mately 680,000 acres, leaving the balance open. The Chairman. What is the extent of the operations that have been conducted under that lease, and what has been paid to the Indians on account of that Foster lease, if you can remember? Of course, the lease itself would be the best evidence of that ; I presume you are familiar with it. Mr. Carroll. I expect that that lease is producing to-day approxi- mately 38,000 barrels of oil, of which the Osages receive one-eighth in royalty — say about 4,750 barrels a day, or about $4,750 a day. Oil is worth now $1.05. Now, we have leased some territory since I have been in charge of the agency The Chairman. I wish you would tell the commission about that. What leases have been made since you have been there, and what is the approximate area of that, and in a general way to whom the leases have been made ? Mr. Carroll. I hate to speak of these things without having the records. My memory is not clear on all those points. I will give it to you as best I recall, of course. The Chairman. Of course, we understand that it will be purely from memory. Mr.CARROLL When I took charge of the agency I found that the department had, a few days before, promulgated regulations for leasing the unleased portion of the Osage lands for oil and gas mining purposes. Soon after that I was directed to prepare a map showing the properties, 100,000 acres, for lease. That map was prepared, and before the advertisement was inserted in the papers there were requests from different sources to put up certain other tracts; and I believe that the total amount of land was something like 107,000 acres that we advertised at that time. Those bids were opened on the 11th of November, 1912, as I recall, and I think probably we leased about 25,000 acres of land— something like that. I can not be sure. The Chairman. The total area that has been leased since you have been connected with the agency is about 25,000 acres ? Mr. Carroll. No; in September last, Senator, the office having had before it some time another map of 100,000 acres which the council had requested be leased, sent me a map of about 12,000 acres— not quite 12,000, as I recall it. I was directed to advertise that land. That was cut up into rather small subdivisions; nothing exceeding 160 acres I think we leased under that advertisement about 10,000 acres. So I should say that since I have been in charge of the agency something like 35,000 acres have been leased. ,,,,■,, The Chairman. The other 25,000 related to the leases that had been made prior to that last leasing in small holdings? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What are, in a general way, the terms ot those last small leases? Are they required to operate them a given time, 1394 OSAGE RESERVATION. and what royalty or other consideration do they pay to the Osage Indians for the leases? Mr. Carroll. They provide a one-sixth royalty for the tribe; that a well shall be begun, or operation shall be begun, within 90 days from the date of the approval of the lease by the Secretary of the Interior, and that within a year from that time the lessee shall have drilled a well to such depth as the oil inspector of the Osage Nation shall say is a proper depth, on every subdivision contained in his lease regardless of its area. The Chairman. What is the largest area? Mr. Carroll. Well, the regulations of July 3, 1912, fixed the areas from 320 to 5,120 ; 5,120 acres under those regulations would be the maximum, but under this last letting, as I say, this area was 160. I rather think that was due to some extraordinary development in that vicinity; some very large wells had been brought in, and it seemed to be the psychological moment to sell the stuff in proximity to this production, and I assume that the commissioner thought it advisable to cut it up into very small tracts. In fact, that sale seemed to justify his action anyway. It brought an exceedingly large bonus. The Chairman. What did it bring, if you remember ? Mr. Carroll. The bonus offering on that land wa$/a little in excess of half a million dollars — the 10,000 acres sold in September last. The Chairman. So that, whether or not there were any operations at all on that 10,000 acres last leased in 160-acre tracts, the Indians got a little more than half a million dollars ? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, supposing there are no operations within the time fixed in the lease, do you know what will be the result? Will the leases be forfeited, or what is the result ? Mr. Carroll. The regulations provide a penalty of $2,000 for fail- ure to drill a well on any one subdivision, and also that the Secretary may cancel the lease. The Chairman. It is optional with the Secretary whether or not the lease shall be canceled? Mr. Carroll. I should so interpret the regulations. The Chairman. Now, as to the 25,000 acres of other lands that you leased, not including these leases of 160 acres in each tract, thtj area in those ranged from 320 to 5,120, if I remember you correctly? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Why was that distinction made? Whv was there such a difference in the areas ? Mr. Carroll. That was in strict conformity with the regulations, which provided that these subdivisions— the maximum should be 5,120 and the minimum 320. In laying these out, the oil inspector who prepared the maps suggested the smaller areas of 120 acres in proximity to production, the maximum areas remote from pro- duction. The Chairman. Now, as to these several tracts that were leased before you went to the agency, or afterward, do you know whether or not there has been an effort on the part of any of the lessees to suppress development and prevent production for the ostensible purpose of discrediting the value of the lands and securing a new OSAGE RESERVATION. 1395 lease? Do you know whether that is true as to any of the Foster lands or not? Mr. Carroll. I do not. i Th f G = AIR ™; P? y° u know of cases where the wells that have ™ ^ been dnUed have been Pegged, as you might call it? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. _ The Chairman. Have any complaints been made to you as super- intendent of the agency? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. Your attention has never been called to that at alls Mr. Carroll. No, sir. _ Senator Lane. Do you know of any such action in any instance, in the case of wells that would flow oil if they were not plugged ? Mr. Carroll. I can not conceive that would be possible, that a man with a lease with only two years to run— if he had an oil well it seems to me he would let it flow, when oil is $1.05 a barrel. The Chairman. You have said that there has been very little de- velopment of the Foster lease because of the fact that the lease expires pretty soon. That was a 10-year lease in the beginning, was it not? ■ to Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that statement that you can not conceive of a thing of that sort happening ? Mr. Carroll. Just let me get your point. The Chairman. You said awhile ago that the development of the Foster lease had been very slow because the lease was soon to expire ? Mr. Carroll. Yes. The Chairman. Why would not the same rule apply to that lease as would apply to the alleged plugging of wells ? Mr. Carroll. If I remember, I said that these operators claimed they could not proceed with active development because of the short tenure. Senator Lane. That was 10 years? Mr. Carroll. That was 10 years. I remember that argument was advanced in their briefs to the Secretary of the Interior in last June when the lessees assembled here and presented their petitions and arguments for a renewal. They said that with such a short tenure they could not proceed with active development; that it took about three years on an average for a well to pay for itself. The Chairman. They do not put down the wells any more, then; but you do not know of any instance where a well that has been flow- ing has been plugged in order to lessen the rental or royalty value of the oil land? Mr. Carroll. I know, on the contrary, that where wells have re- cently, or comparatively recently, been drilled, and where an oil pool was formed, we have had the most active development. I know of 55 acres of land in that country that has been producing for more than three months over $15,000 a day. Now, I can not conceive how or why a man should The Chairman. It is not a matter of argument, you know. I am simply asking as a matter of fact, Of course, if you do not know 1396 OSAGE RESERVATION. that and it has not been called to your attention, that is another }3roposition. I myself would have some difficulty in understanding it if it were true. Now, do you know how many wells are in operation on the Foster lease? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. What is the average length of oil leases, and what is the period of the leases that are now being made down there — those that have been made since you went on the reservation ? Mr. Carroll. These leases are what we usually call perpetual leases. They are for 10 years, but as long as oil and gas are dis- covered — as long as oil flows. You understand, of course, that as to the Osage Indian Reservation, before allotment, a lease could not be made for a longer period than 10 years under the United States statutes. That is the reason those leases had to be for 10 years originally, and had to be renewed for 10 years, because at the time of the renewal it was still an Indian reservation, and under the law the lease could not extend bej'ond 10 years. The Chairman. Do you know how many wells are in operation on the Foster lease? Mr. Carroll. Senator, I have some data down here at the Indian Office. If I had it with me I could tell you exactly how many wells have been drilled on the Osage Reservation. The Chairman. Your memory is not sufficiently fresh to state it? Mr. Carroll. .No, sir. The Chairman. Do you know whether any wells have been drilled on that lease since you went there? Mr. Carroll. On the Foster lease? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes, The Chairman. Do you know how many? Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I do not. The Chairman. Where is the Barnsdall lease wtih reference to the Foster lease? Mr. Carroll. It is about half of the Foster lease. The Chairman. Which part of the Foster lease? Mr. Carroll. It is all through it, Senator. It is fine territory. The Chairman. It is the pick of the oil lands in the Foster lease, 1S -J* ■ Would you say that, in your opinion, roughly speaking? Mr. Carroll. In my opinion— I do not think my opinion is worth much on oil and gas matters, but if you ask for my opinion it is that the Barnsdall people control probably as valuable territory as there is in the Osage country. The Chairman. How long has that been true ? Mr. Carroll. That has probably been true since 1907, since the Barnsdall Oil Co. was organized. The Chairman. What other companies, if you remember, have leased oil lands and gas lands within this reservation ? Mr. Carroll. A great many of them. I wish I had known the character of this inquiry, because I could have brought from the office a set of maps and accompanying schedules showing every oper- ator and every well that was ever drilled, showing whether that well is dry, oil-producing, or gas-producing, and could answer these questions very quickly. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1397 Senator Lane. Are there large numbers of them, or just a few? Is there more than a dozen down there altogether? Mr. Carroll. Oh, there are probably a dozen companies, with an acreage each exceeding 5,000. Senator Lane. Would they have more than one well ? Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes. Senator Lane. There would be more than a dozen wells altogether down there, then ? I do not know anything about it, you know. I would like to get some kind of an idea. Mr. Carroll. I guess the Barnsdall Co. has drilled approximately a thousand wells. The Chairman. Is there anybody else operating on the Foster lease except the Barnsdall people? Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes. I should say there are a dozen companies that control exceeding 5,000 acres, and that there are more than a hundred companies and individuals that have less than 5,000 acres. There are probably 140 individuals and companies subleasing, oper- ating under the Foster lease. The Chairman. Do you know whether these companies are organ- ized in conjunction with one another, or whether they have any com- mon directorates or interests in common, or are they independent of one another? Do you know anything about that? Mr. Carroll. I know something about the Barnsdall Oil Co., because I have recently investigated that. The Chairman. Did you make the investigation that was recently made regarding the Barnsdall Oil Co. ? Mr. Carroll. I made one, Senator. I do not know whether it is the one you are talking about or not. If that investigation disclosed that the Barnsdall Oil Co. is controlled by the Standard, then I made the investigation. The Chairman. Then, as a matter of fact, the Barnsdall Oil Co. is owned and controlled by the Standard? Mr. Carroll. No question, sir. The Chairman. Do you know whether the other smaller com- panies there are in the same position or not? Mr. Carroll. I hardly believe it. There is one other company operating there, but not under the Foster lease, but having a lease under the letting of November 11, 1912— the Carter Oil Co.— that is a Standard Oil corporation. . The Chairman. Have you ever gone through the list o± the lessees there with a view to ascertaining whether and what number of them were connected with the Standard Oil Co. ? Mr Carroll. Yes; I have a list of their stockholders and directors I have examined these lists, and that is the reason I am satisfied that the Carter Oil Co. is a Standard corporation. . The Chairman. Has the Uncle Sam Oil Co. any leases m that "Mr. Carroll. Yes, sirfthey are sublessees of the Foster Co. The Chairman. Do you know what area they control' Mr. Carroll. Well, it is less than 5,000 acres. The Chairman. All told? . Mr Carroll. I can not tell you exactly. The Chapman. Do you know whether they are in any way con- nected with the Standard? 1398 OSAGE RESERVATION. Mr. Carroll. I should not think they were. The Chairman. Were you there in charge of the agency when the controversy arose between the Standard and the other people and the Uncle Sam Oil Co. as to the lease that the Uncle Sam Oil Co. was claiming on certain of those lands ? Mr. Carroll. No, sir : I inherited that. The Chairman. Do you know what area the Uncle Sam people claim to have leased from the Osage Indians through the council? Mr. Carroll. Why, I should say two of those 201,000-acre leases; probably 400,000 acres. I think they had only one lease of 201,000 acres, but I believe that they were to get, or did get, another one of the same size. I do not recall. The Chairman. You say you looked into the question of the Barns- dall Oil Co. and found it was controlled and operated by the Standard? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Can you state from memory some of the circum- stances that led you to that conclusion — some of the facts? Mr. Carroll. I had been told by a number of people that Mr. Barnsdall had borrowed from the Standard Oil Co. something like $7,500,000 back in 1907, and had mortgaged all of his holdings in the Osage and a lot of other equities for this loan, and that this loan was due in February. I think, of this year, and that the prob- ability was that he would not be able to pay it. Now, who told me that I don't know. It is just one of those things that one will hear from a number of sources in a community. It was general talk that the Standard owned the Barnsdall — controlled it — by virtue of this vast amount of money that thev had advanced. I went direct to the Barnsdall people about it when I received a letter from the office directing me to investigate it. I got very little information from the Barnsdall Oil Co., but I finally got the information from Mr. Barns- dall himself. I wrote him in Pittsburgh. Representative Stejmexs. Who is he What office does he hold in the company ? Mr. Carroll. He has nothing to clo with it, Judge. Representative Stephens. How would his information be reliable, then ? Mr. Carroll. I asked him to furnish me copies of his contract with the Standard; just asked him to play his cards face up on the table. The Chairman. Did he furnish them to you? Mr. Carroll. Yes. sir — copies of his agreements. The Chairman. By records which are in the possession of the commission and the Bureau of Indian Affairs, it appears that Mr. Barnsdall represents a total area that that company owns leases on of 323.1(10 acres approximately. Do you know W. J. Young? Mr. Carroll. I have never met him. Senator. The Chairman. He is the vice president and general manager of the Barnsdall Oil Co. ? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And he is also representative for the Standard Oil Co. ? Mr. Carkoll. He has the management of the Barnsdall Oil Co. under contract, at a salary of $15,000 a year, I believe; and he also OSAGE RESERVATION. 13QQ has &e right to nominate anybody in his place when he wanta to companS^riTor'SaeSS^otX "f^T "»- Mr. Carroll. I hardly think that is true. ' the PrSriTSi- t^'n ^ J Want to ^^ ^ ' Of course, ThV^o^selvIs 00 ' " admittedly a Staird OH company.' the T Stan!aST AN ' ^ ^ ^^ ™ de -tood to be a subsidiary of Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. u^SZ^fg^ffi' What — ° f la » d do they control &Gas. CAER0LL ' Why ' J 6XpeCt abOTt 3 °' 000 acres - th e Prairie Oil The Chairman. Are they operating? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Extensively? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Developing? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. When do their leases expire ? Mr. Carroll It will expire on that area subleased from the ia?a E^lf at n the same time tlle Foster lease expires— March 16, l»lb. .But they have some lands leased under existing regulations ihey have, I think, about 400 acres. The Chairman. What companies leased those 160-acre tracts « Was that leased by independent operators or was it leased gener- ally by operators already in the field ? Mr. Carroll. A great deal of that— about 4,500 acres as I recall it, or somewhere along there— went to a West Virginia man. The big companies, what we call the pipe-line companies— the Prairie Oil & Gas, the Gypsy, which is a subsidiary of the Gulf Pipe Line— they did not get a great deal of territory. They got what was con- sidered the best territory, but it has turned out to be a pretty bitter disappointment to the Prairie people. The Chairman. Why? Mr. Carroll. Because they have developed very little oil. The Chairman. It did not prove as good as they thought it was ? Mr. Carroll. No. The Chairman. Are they trying to develop it ? Mr. Carroll. Yes. It seemed that they had nothing to do but offset wells that were producing from 3,000 to 4,000 barrels a day. The Chairman. What do you mean by " offset " ? -Mr. Carroll. Drilling 600 feet aAvay just across the line. The Chairman. Trying to tap them ? Mr. Carroll. Yes. And yet, I think, they have drilled four or five or six wells, and I believe their total production is something like 110 barrels. The Chairman. Which, of course, is small for that territory? 1400 OSAGE RESERVATION. Mr. Carroll. Small for the bonus they paid — $220,000 bonus. The Chairman. Have they already paid that? Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes. They had to pay that before we would make a contract with them. I think the most of that 10,000 acres went to independent operators. The Chairman. Now, I would like to know your view as to whether it is desirable to permit this field to be monopolized by one concern ; or do you know of any disadvantages that would accrue to the service if that were done ; or would you think it best to require operations to be conducted by independent companies; and if so, why ? Have you given thought to that ? Mr. Carroll. Well, I have thought this way, Senator, that if this were Government land, if this were public domain, and the Govern- ment could apply to this country as well as to all its other country, a certain fixed economic policy of development, it would be all right and a good thing to do. For instance, exclude pipe-line companies from bidding. But the situation is this: The land belongs to the Indians; and it seems to me that we occupy the position in that matter that the guar- dian does toward the ward, and that it is our duty to lease his lands at the most advantageous price. In other words, to make a personal matter of it, if I owned the Osage country individually, if it were my personal property, it would not make a bit of difference to me who got the land, so he paid me the most money. If Mr. Rocke- feller liimself offered me more than you or Judge Stephens or Senator Lane, Mr. Rockefeller would get my land. The Chairman. That is what I wanted to know. In your opinion, then, it is purely a matter of how and from whom the best price can be obtained for the Indians? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is the total amount of royalties and other incomes that you are now receiving per annum from oil-land leases on account of the Osage Indians? Mr. Carroll. Well, it is approximately $5,000 a day. The Chairman. That would be how much per annum ? Mr. Carroll. About $1,800,000, wouldn't it ? The Chairman. $1,800,000 per annum? Mr. Carroll. Yes. The Chairman. Are there other lands to be leased that have not yet been leased? Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes. The Chairman. What is the area of those lands — the oil and eras lands? Mr. Carroll. Well, we don't know, Senator, whether they are oil and gas lands. The Chairman. Do you lease them as oil and gas lands without knowing whether they are or not? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I mean to say, does the lessee take that chance? Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes. The Chairman. And the Prairie Co. made a bad bid? It took some lands that did not prove as productive as they expected? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1401 The Chairman. Now, what is the probable area of the additional oil and gas lands that have not yet been leased, if you know? Do you know whether the department has made an effort to determine that or not? Mr. Carroll. Well, I think it is a difficult matter to determine from a surface investigation. It is a hard matter to look at the surface of the country and say. The Chairman. You have leased a large quantity of lands, for instance, throughout the last year as oil and gas lands. Now, yon have determined in some way that they were oil and gas lands. What I am anxious to know is whether there are additional areas there; and if so, what is the extent of the area that may still be leased as oil and gas lands? Mr. Carroll. Well, I should say that this entire unleased portion of 800,000 acres is worth testing for oil. The Chairman. And may be considered of prospective value in that particular? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, are any other leases pending that have not been approved; I mean, have leases been let that have not been approved ? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. Whatever became of those Uncle Sam leases? Were they rejected finally? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; they were disapproved. The Chairman. Did you ever make any investigation into those leases yourself? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. That was done before you went there ? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I suppose you only know what somebody has told you about that? Mr. Carroll. That is all. The Chairman. Do you know whether the lands that were cov- ered in the leases claimed by the Uncle Sam people have since been leased, or any part of them? Mr. Carroll. Yes; a part of them. The Chairman. What area, do you know? Mr Carroll. I expect a considerable part of this entire area we have leased— 25,000 and 10,000, making 35,000 acres. I wont be sure about that. . . T The Chairman. That is my information, that that is true, l presume I can get a list of these lessees of the small tracts from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I do not suppose you would have that, would you ? You probably would not have it in your office t Mr Carroll. You mean the lands that were leased lately « The Chairman. Yes; for instance, since Mr. Sells became commis- ^Mr 1 *' Carroll. Yes; I have that information in my room at the Kaleish I shall be very glad to let you have it. Thf Chairman. The royalties under those leases are very high? Do vou know the amount? Mr. Carroll. That is a sixth in the new lease The Chairman. And the bonus is also very large? 1402 OSAGE RESERVATION. Mr. Carroll. Well, that depends The Chairman. Upon what? Mr. Carroll. The bonus depends entirely upon the proximity of a piece of land to production. If there is a producing well close by, naturally this piece of land that we are offering that is adjoining or near production will bring more bonus than land that is 2 miles or 5 miles away. The Chairman. Because there is that much more chance that the distant land will not have oil? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. But there is also this fact, that the more you in- crease the number of wells in a small area the more you decrease the production of the wells already existing near it ? Or is that true ? Mr. Carroll. I think that is hardly considered to be the case by operators. I believe that on a 40-acre tract, we will say, that is pro- ducing oil they consider about eight wells sufficient to take care of that area. The Chairman. That any greater number would not be profitable ? Mr. Carroll. You could not get any more oil by drilling a greater number. Representative Stephens. That is a well to 5 acres ? Mr. Carroll. Yes, Judge; about that. The Chairman. Do you know the total number of wells now in operation in the Osage territory? I mean on the Osage Reservation. Mr. Carroll. No ; I do not, Senator, but I can get that information for you, The Chairman. Can you furnish me with a list of them for the record ? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I wish you would make a note of these things as we go along. Now, this Gypsy Oil Co. you have referred to — do you know who controls that? Mr. Carroll. Well, Secretary Fisher maintained that the Gulf Pipe Line Co. controlled it, and he turned down the leases of the Gypsy Oil Co. made under the letting of November 11, 1912. The Gypsy Oil Co. was a very active bidder, and that company secured most of the lands that were offered. That is, they offered the highest price and the council accepted the bids and we made out the leases and sent them in for approval, and Secretary Fisher disapproved them on the ground that the Gypsy Oil Co. was so closely allied to the Gulf Pipe Line Co. The Chairman. Who is that company? Is that a Standard concern ? Mr. Carroll. I do not think so, sir. But the regulations at that time forbade pipe-line companies bidding. Now, the Secretary said that the Gypsy was practically the Gulf, and therefore he would not approve those leases. The regulations in that respect, as you are probably aware, have since been changed. The Chairman. Yes. What are the transportation facilities for oil from this field to the markets ? Mr. Carroll. There are three pipe-line companies. The Chairman. What are they ? Mr. Carroll. The Gulf, the Prairie, and the Texas. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1403 The Chairman. Are they supposed to be* independent companies and operating in competition with each other, or are they Mr. Carroll. I think so, sir. The CHArRMAN. What about the rates? Do they operate upon uniform rates? I mean, does each company charge the same rates for the same service ? Mr. Carroll. You see, the pipe-line companies buy the oil and they fix the price of oil. The Prairie Oil & Gas usually takes the initiative in advancing the price of oil. I will get a telegram, say to-day, from the Prairie Oil & Gas that beginning to-day the Prairie Oil & Gas will pay so much per barrel for crude. Well, immediately the Gulf Pipe Line Co. and the Texas Co. issue notices meeting that. Just as soon as the Prairie advances the price the other two pipe- line companies immediately meet that price, so that they are paying the same thing all the time. The Chairman. There is really no apparent competition between them? Mr. Carroll. There does not seem to be. Kepresentative Stephens. Do the prices fluctuate ? Mr. Carroll. The price when I went to the country, Judge, was 70 cents, and it has gradually advanced. That was in July, 1912. It has gradually advanced to $1.05. Representative Stephens. Has the production decreased in accord- ance with that? Mr. Carroll. No, sir ; the production has increased. Representative Stephens. What do you attribute the advance to? Mr. Carroll. I think the demand for oil. The Chairman. Do you know what the total output of that field is, Mr. Carroll ? Mr. Carroll. The total output of the Mid-Continent field? The Chairman. I mean of the Osage Reservation. Mr. Carroll. It is nearly 43,000 barrels a day right now. The Chairman. How are these leases made, Mr. Carroll ? Explain briefly the method of handling them. Mr. Carroll. Now, we have advertised only two pieces of land since I have been there ; one on November 11, 1912 The Chairman. And the other was since? Mr. Carroll. September. The Chairman. Tell just how that was done. Mr. Carroll. The office directs me to insert a certain advertise- ment, which is prepared here, in the following newspapers and periodicals for a certain period. And I send to these periodicals a copy of this ad. with instructions to run that from a certain date to a certain date, and this advertisement sets forth that the fol- lowing-described lands are offered for lease for oil and gas mining purposes on the Osage Reservation, Okla., and that bids will be opened at 2 o'clock p. m. on a certain day. Then it recites that these bids must conform to regulations promulgated under date of July 3, 1912, a copy of which will be furnished upon application to the superintendent of the Osage Agency, etc. Then, on the day of the letting, promptly at 1 o'clock, we gather in the council room and the bids are brought in and opened and read before such members of the council as desire to be present, or m the presence of anybody. 1404 OSAGE RESERVATION. The Chairman. When .you say .the " council " you mean the Indian council ? Mr. Carroll. Yes. The Chairman. And then you accept the highest bids, if they are acceptable ? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. We then make an abstract of those bids, and the council is called into regular session, and the abstract of the bids is presented to the council, and it is explained to the council which are the most advantageous bids. The council takes the action, whatever that may be. The Chairman. So it is the policy of the bureau to make no leases except those that are approved by the council ? Mr. Carroll. The bureau can not. The Chairman. That is another question, whether they can or not. Anyway, since you have been there, it has not been done? No bids have been accepted except those approved by the council ? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. Now, were you there when the alleged action of the Osage Council was taken with reference to repudiating some oil bids and leases, or had you taken charge of the agency at that time? Mr. Carroll. Those leases had been disapproved, you know, before I took charge of the Osage. The Chairman. Were you there when the new council was formed and when the old council was dispersed? Mr. Caeeoll. I was there when this council was elected and when their predecessors were dismissed. The Chairman. Why were they dismissed? Do you know? Mr. Carroll. Well, I should say that you ought to consult the let- ter of the Secretary of the Interior, who dismissed them. The Chairman. You did not do that? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. This is a matter of record, and you had nothing to do with it? Mr. Carroll. Nothing to do with it. The Chairman. Do you know anything about that convoking or organizing of the new council? Mr. Carroll. Not a thing in the world. The Chairman. Were you present at their meeting? Mr. Carroll. I appear at every council meeting. The superintend- ent calls the council in session, or the call may be made by the chief It is usually done by me on my own initiative when I think we have some business before the council to attend to, or when the chief or some members of the council request that they be called for some pur- pose. Then I appear before them and give them what I have to give them and retire. I do not remain in the council room. The Chairman. Were you superintendent of the agency when the former council was dismissed by the Secretary ? Were you there at that time? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know about what date that was, Mr. Car- roll? Mr. Carroll. I believe it was in January. The Chairman. Of 1913? Mr. Carroll. Of 1913. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1405 The Chairman. Do you know when the other council was called? Mr. Carroll. Well, there was an election, you know, called right away. The Chairman. How was that election held? Mr. Carroll. That election was held as provided in the act of 1906, in the office of the agnecy ; and the adult male members of the tribe, you know, have the right of voting. The Chairman. Do you register those who are going to vote? Just give me an idea us to what actually occurs. Take, for instance, that election at the time the new council was chosen. Tell me what oc- curred there. Mr. Carroll. There was a general notice of an election sent out. The Chairman. Where was it sent, and to whom was it sent? I suppot.e yen pre aware it has been claimed by some that that election was partial, and no general notice was given, and that its integrity has been assailed by some. Now, tell me what notice was given, and how it was given. Mr. Carroll. Notice was sent out to Fairfax, Hominy, and Pawhuska, Indian villages, and to what we call " dogie camp." No- tices were sent to every field man to post conspicuously. The widest kind of publicity was given to that election. The Chairman. That is within your control ? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many Indians attended that election? Do you know? Mr. Carroll. I think the vote was 163. Senator Lane. Out of a total of how many Indians — 2,200 ? Mr. Carroll. Not 2,200 voting Indians. Only the adult males are permited to vote. Senator Lane. That is, 163 out of how many that would be en- titled to vote ? Can you approximate ? Mr. Carroll. Probably 300 — something over 300. The Chairman. Has a list of the voters been made, Mr. Carroll, or do they just come in and vote from time to time? How is the voting done ? How was that election held ? Mr. Carroll. Well, we had a box that I found there when I went there ; a box with a padlock on it ; such a box as you would find at an ordinary polling place. The Chairman. A ballot box? Mr Carroll. A ballot box. The ballots were printed There were "judges of election. The polls were opened from o clock .in the morning to 6 o'clock in the evening, as I recall it. I believe that was the regulation. Everybody was permitted to vote that wanted °The Chairman. That is, those that were entitled to vote? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you have more than one ticket? You saj the tickets were printed. Did you have ]ust one ticket with the n Tr S cl^LTS™! ticket, as I recalh There were mass meet- ings held at Hominy, and Gray Horse, and Pawhuska, and then these *S?S£££?. S^STiSSbSS that ^i ^ <*«! 35601— pt 12—14 2 1406 OSAGE RESERVATION. Mr. Carroll. There are eight councilmen. The principal chief and assistant principal chief do not vote. The Chairman. Has the Secretary of the Interior the power to dis- miss any council, and under what conditions has he the power to dismiss a council, if you know ? Mr. Carroll. If I recall, the act says he may do so for cause to be by him determined. The Chairman. Which, you think, practically leaves it discretion- ary with him? I assumed you thought that. Mr. Carroll. It seemed to me that way, Senator. The Chairman. That would seem to me, from the language you used. Eepresentative Stephens. Do they permit women to vote? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. Representative Stephens. What are the requirements for men? Over 21 years of age? Mr. Carroll. Over 21. The Chairman. Who has charge of the trust funds of the agency — ■ what official? Mr. Carroll. Well, I guess I am responsible for it, Senator. The Chairman. Who keeps the accounts ? Mr. Carroll. Oh, the accounts are kept by three or four clerks. The Chairman. I want to know exactly how you handle the trust funds of the Osage Indians. Just assuming now that I do not know anything about it, tell me how you handle them. Mr. Carroll. The applications for the withdrawal of the funds are made to the assistant superintendent. An Indian comes in, for instance, and expresses a desire to make his application to withdraw funds. He is referred to the assistant superintendent, who takes his application and prepares a report and recommendation on the case. When the claim is allowed, if it is allowed, when the funds come out, they either come to be paid directly to the claimant and the check or warrant is turned over and a receipt taken, or if they are to be deposited and disbursed under my supervision the claimant is asked to indorse the warrant, when it is deposited in some one of the bonded banks that we have. Then authority is asked to approve his checks for certain specific purposes. It may be for buying a team of horses, $400, or we approve his check for $60 to buy a cow or $1,700 to build .a house The Chairman. You have to get that authority from the Interior Department here, the bureau? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is the total amount of the funds that you handle on account of this tribe? Do you know? Mr. Carroll. I do not know what it would amount to. You mean the trust funds ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Carroll. The trust funds that they withdraw, do you mean? The Chairman. No; I mean all the funds that you control. Mr. Carroll. Every member of the Osage Nation, if his funds have not been withdrawn, has in the Treasury to his individual credit $3,819.76. That resulted from a segregation some years ago, when they were allotted of the different tribal funds. That was segregated, and each member of the tribe on this approved roll had OSAGE RESERVATION. 1407 this amount placed to his credit. That draws 5 per cent interest, which is payable to him quarterly. The Chairman. Where is that fund actually carried? Mr. Carroll. In the Treasury of the United States. The Chairman. Now, you take these moneys that they collect on account of the agency, including the oil royalties, etc., which you say exceed approximately a million and a half dollars a year now. How do you handle that? What do you do with it ? Mr. Carroll. That is deposited with the assistant treasurer at St. Louis to the credit of the United States. When I get money from any source it is deposited there. That is our nearest depositary, you see. The Chairman. What funds are carried, then, in local banks? Mr. Carroll. We have no funds there except the funds of indi- vidual Indians — individual Indian moneys. The Chairman. What is the amount of that? Mr. Carroll. Well, it is a considerable sum. I do not know that I could tell you. We have probably 14 or 15 bonded banks; some even outside the State, some up in Kansas. A bank that qualifies as a depositary may receive as much as its capital stock, but no more. The Chairman. Do you collect interest on that ? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; we make a contract with them. We adver- tise when we want depositaries, and ask for bids — bids on checking accounts and bids on time deposits. Those bids are submitted to the office, and the office accepts or rejects these bids, and finally advises us that such and such a bank is now qualified as a depositary. Representative Stephens. Is that a ruling of the office, or is it an act of Congress? Mr. Carroll. I am inclined to think it is the rule of the office. Representative Stephens. I think so, too ; that is my remembrance. Mr. Carroll. I do not recall any statute covering it. The Chairman. Can you tell me about how much of those kind of funds the agency is carrying now in the different depositaries? Mr. Carroll. I can not offhand. The Chairman. Who actually keeps the account? You do not do it yourself? Mr. Carroll. Oh, no. Mr. George Beaulieu. The Chairman. He is a clerk in your office? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. He is a Chippewa Indian. The Chairman. Under what conditions are these Indians permit- ted to withdraw their funds? Mr. Carroll. Well, all of them under some condition or other may be permitted. That depends; each individual application has to be judged on its own merits. The Chairman. I know ; but an Indian can not just go and draw a check on those depositaries? Mr. Carroll. No. I say, I have to get specific authority. The Chairman. He applies to you, and recites the purpose for which he wants to draw his money? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You approve it, or make a representation to the bureau, and the commissioner then passes on it. and either approves it or rejects it? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. 1408 OSAGE RESERVATION. The Chairman. At all events, in all cases the authority is given to draw for a specific purpose? Mr. Carroll. Yes. sir. The Chairman. To buy stock, to buy machinery, to build a house, or some other purpose supposed to be for the benefit of the Indians? Mr. Carroll. For the benefit of the Indians; yes, sir. The Chairman. Now. after that permission is given, and the checks are authorized to be drawn, who actually draws the check? Do you do it, or the Indian himself? Mr. Carroll. We draw it in the office. The Chairman. What do you do with it ? Mr. Carroll. We have him sign it. I countersign it; and if it is for a team of horses, for instance, we have the horses inspected, and draw the check to the man who furnishes the horses, etc. If it is to build a house, we usually, on approval of a contract for the house, withdraw the amount when the house has been inspected by one of our men and pronounced built according to the plans and specifi- cations. The. Chairman. Who gets actual possession of the check? The man to whom the obligation is due, or the Indian himself? Mr. Carroll. The man to whom the obligation is due. The Chairman. Have you, in any instance that you can recall, gotten authority for Indians to build houses and then enabled them to use their checks for the payment of other indebtedness ? Mr. Carroll. Well, I do not think so, Senator. The Chairman. Do you know Brenner & Bird, at Pawhuska? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What business are they in? Mr. Carroll. I think in business of loaning money to Indians. They are officers of banks and different business enterprises. The Chairman. Do you know whether they are in the habit of loaning money to Indians at excessive or exorbitant rates of interest ? Mr. Carroll. I am inclined to think they loan money usually at the rate of 10 per cent a quarter. The Chairman. That would be 40 per cent per annum ? Mr. Carroll. Forty per cent per annum. The Chairman. That is an exorbitant rate of interest, of course. Mr. Carroll. Unquestionably. The Chairman. What is the legal rate of interest in Oklahoma? Mr. Carroll. Ten per cent per annum. The Chairman. They construe that into 10 per cent a quarter. Do you know the extent of their operations in that particular? Of course, I do not suppose you could state it exactly, but have you looked it up to see how much money has been paid to Brenner & Bird on account of these loans through your office ? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. Would you have any means of finding that out? Mr. Carroll. We could find it out." I think they would be very glad to give me the figures if requested. The Chairman. Who ? Brenner & Bird ? Mr. Carroll. I think so. The Chairman. Why would they be glad to give you the figures? Mr. Carroll. They claim they are not making any money out of the business. USAUE RESERVATION. 1409 The Chairman. At 10 per cent a quarter ? ti^T^LlS-JoZir Senator ' there is no doubt that on The Chairman I should think it is-on the face and on the inside. Mr Carroll. Just a minute. I am not defending Brenner & Bird 1 ]ust want to make this statement: There are people in Osage County who are charging even more than that. For instance, I in- vestigated a case one day- Senator Lane. To whites or Indians ? Mr Carroll To Indians. I investigated a case one day where I am satisfied a fellow never got but $10, but yet he said he signed a note for $190. b The Chairman. How many cases of that sort have come to vour attention ? J Mr. Carroll. I have had a good many cases of the rottenest kinds of deals. The Chairman. I have never had such a case as the one you state, but I have found a number of cases where it appears to me they have given a note, for instance, for $200 and got $100, half the amount they agreed to pay interest on, and then paid $50 and were sued for $(5. That is to say, they only got half the money they were sup- posed to have borrowed, and got credit for half the money they paid. Mr. Carroll. No doubt about that at all. The Chairman. Those operations, you say, do occur? Mr. Carroll. Oh, I know they do.' Senator Lane. You are the superintendent of the Indians there, are you, and put there to look out for their welfare ? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Have you done anything to stop this? Mr. Carroll. I have preached to those people, Senator, ever since T have been there to stop signing notes. I said, " You are the richest people in the world per capita, and you are correspondingly the deepest in debt. You are hog tied. You can not get away, not a one of you. If you had $1,000 a day it would not do you any good." Senator Lane. Have you any authority to stop these loans? Mr. Carroll. Not at all. Now, here is what I started out to say with reference to the 10 per cent a quarter. An3^ Osage Indian who has the proper security, who can furnish the proper collateral or proper indorsement can borrow money from any bank clown there as cheaply as I can. I will make that statement to start with. I have a man here, Fred Lookout, who can go to the First National Bank at Pawhuska any time and borrow two or three or four thousand dollars, because they know Fred has got the stuff and he will pay his obligations. There are a lot of people who have not got that security, many of whom are not going to pay when they borrow, and, aside from that, who are going to be an interminable trouble every day from the time you get their names on your books. And when you remember the trouble that yon are going to have with some people in collecting these obligations, and when you bear in mind that the death of an Osage Indian automatically cancels his debts — because the law itself provides that neither the lands nor the funds of an Osage Indian are liable for debt — you will see that 10 per cent a quarter is not as big as it looks when you first think of it. 1410 OSAGE RESERVATION. The Chairman. The idea being that the fellows who do pay, in the end, must make up the losses occasioned by the fellows who die, and for that reason fail to pay, and those who for any cause fail to pay? Mr. Carroll. The fellows that do pay have to pay at an enormous rate. The Chairman. Do you know Rosa Baconrind? Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes. The Chairman. Do you know how her trust funds are handled? Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I do not. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Bird handled these funds privately and dealt them out as he desired ? Mr. Carroll. I know that he did not. The Chairman. How do you know that? Mr. Carroll. Because I know that nobody ever did that while I have been superintendent of the agency. The Chairman. Do you know the Citizens' National Bank there? Mr. Carroll. I do. The Chairman. Who is the president of that bank? Mr. Carroll. Mr. Vandervoort. The Chairman. Do you know John and Mary McFall and know of their making a loan direct? Mr. Carroll. No, sir ; I do not know of any loans from the banks. The Chairman. You would not know of that? Mr. Carroll. Not unless it was brought to my special attention. The Chairman. How would it be brought to your attention? Mr. Carroll. Well, suppose we had authority to settle the debts of an Indian. Suppose an Indian came in and said, " I want to with- draw my funds and use part of it paying everything I owe. I am harassed by my creditors." I have had cases like that. I have taken him at his word, and where I thought he was sincere, where I laiew he was involved and lie wanted to use his money for that pur- pose, I thought it was a proper purpose to let him use it for, pro- vided that he had somebody to determine what he justly owed. In other words, I have taken the position that it was a proper use of trust funds to pay honest debts. I think any man ought to pay his honest debts, whether he is a white man or an Indian or anybody else. And I have recommended a good many applications for claims for that purpose. Now, where we have paid claims of different per- sons through my office I am very sure that we have not paid any exorbitant rate of interest. In fact, if I had my books The Chairman. How would you find out about that? What would you do? Supposing you were doing just what you say you think you ought to do, and supposing Brenner & Bird, for instance, had an Indian's note, signed by him for $200. Would you go back of the note and find out that he actually got the money? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How would you go about it ? Mr. Carroll. I ask the Indian first when he borrowed this money. " How did you happen to owe Brenner & Bird $200 ? " " Well, I borrowed so much at a certain time." " How much did you borrow? " " One hundred and fifty dollars." " When was this?" I get out and find out when it was he got the money and calculate it at the legal rate of interest from that time. -r^r^r- RESERVATION. 1411 The Chairman. Supposing he tells you one tale and the banker tells you another tale? Suppose the teller of the bank says, " He owes us $200, and here is his note." Mr. Carroll. We always settle on the word of the Indian. Here is the point. Senator: To find out what the Indian wants to pay. If there were 10 accounts here presented against him, " Now, what is it you want to pay ? You say you want to pay your debts. What is it you want to pay ? " Let him tell me that, and then go into that claim and find out whether it is a just claim or not. Representative Stephens. In other words, you select the claims? Mr. Carroll. Let him select them. The Chairman. Do you recall the case of Paul Albert, of Paw- huska, an Osage Indian who bad been given a certificate of com- petency and who made application for part of his trust fund — $1,800 — for the purpose of building a house, fencing his land, and buying a horse and buggy ? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. You do not recall anything about that case? Mr. Carroll. In the handling of these- trust funds. Senator, I have had three people in immediate supervision. First was Mr. Whiting, who resigned last May. He was succeeded by a Mrs. Rap- ley, who went out from the Indian Office. She was succeeded later by Mr. Haygood. the assistant superintendent. Personally, I have handled very few cases. The Chairman. Who does handle those cases? Mr. Carroll. As I say. the assistant superintendent. These three people have had that particular work. The Chairman. You could not tell me anything about that case then? n , Mr. Carroll. I should be glad to tell you what the records show as to Paul Albert, if you want that, sir. The Chairman. I should like very much to know. Do you know George Tayrien ? . Mr. Carroll. I do not believe I do, sir. I know William Tayrien pretty well. The Chairman. Do you know anything about a land transaction in. which George Tayrien was interested down there? Do you recall anything about it? Was it ever called to your attention? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. We have not sold any land since I have been there, Senator. The Chairman. I am not informed. Mr. Carroll. I did not think it was advisable to sell any oi those Vhe Chairman. I really did not know when you went there, and I am inclined to think that this transaction may have occurred, and probably did occur, before you went there. Mr Carroll. You see, they had four years of continuous drought, and I thought it was bad policy to sell those lands. They were not ^ffi^^Sf K^know about the case of an Indian by the name of John A. Fugate, who took his trust fund and bought some mares and an automobile, and claimed that he got robbed in the deal? Mr Carroll No, sir. I could not say that that is so I expect he w^bbSaU right. As a matter of fact, Senator, while we are on 1412 OSA.CE RESERVATION. liiiit, more than half the Osage Indians are what we call on the roll " mixed bloods." The great majority of those people, of those mixed bloods, are as competent, from my point of view — you under- stand I am giving you my opinion — are practically white people, as competent as the average citizen of the community in which they live, and should be absolutely divorced from governmental supervision. The Chairman. Of course, if they are that competent, that ought to be done, but if it has not been done, you know, and we are assuming to exercise- a guardianship and espionage over them, that raises a different question. Mr. Carroll. Here is the point. Let us take the matter of trust funds. The act provides that these funds may be withdrawn in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior when he thinks it is to the best interest. Xow, I have been endeavoring for some time to get the office — not lately, but under the former administration when I took charge of the Osage, I endeavored to get the office to give me its view of a competent Indian. What do you mean by the word "com- petent 1- ? Do you mean the man who has made a success? If you are measuring competency by the yard stick of commercial success, if a man must show two talents for every one that he has ever re- ceived, I can count the competent Osages on the fingers of that hand. Representative Stephens. Who determines the competency, Mr. Carroll? How do you arrive at that? Mr. Carroll. That is a question of opinion, Judge. My point of view is, as I say, that a great many of those people are competent; that it would be to their best interests if they had everything in the world they have got and went through with it — if they went broke. I regard it as unfortunate — maybe I am getting too enthusiastic here ? The Chairman. No; go ahead. Mr. Carroll. I do not like to put too much of this in the record, Senator, but I do feel that the solution of the Osage situation, which is the most serious thing I have ever seen in my 18 years of Indian experience, where you do not see the results, where a man knows that he is not accomplishing anything — do you get the idea ? The Chairman. Yes : I do. Mr. Carroll. Suppose, you were engaged in a business and the time never comes when you feel that you have clone anything, when you have accomplished anything, when you have done any real construc- tive work? Why, out tbeie on that little Apache Reservation that you gentlemen visited, as you rode up that canyon there, that good road that was built by those Indians — — The Chairman. The Mescalero? Mr. Carroll. Yes. When those poor devils, who have been pinched witli cold and hunger, were intV.rnied that there was money available thev would climb over each other to go and work on that road at a dollar and a quarter a day. Show me a condition like that and I will show you where a man can accomplish something. The Chairman. Well, the Osage Indians are rich. They have more money than any community of white people in the world that I have heard of. As you said at the beginning of your statement, they are the wealthiest people in existence. They are restricted, are they? Is it your idea that the restrictions ought to be removed, and that they ought to be practically all turned loose? OSAGE RESERVATION. 1413 Mr. Carroll. Not practically all of them; no. I say the great majority of what we call the mixed bloods. The mixed bloods out- number the full bloods a little. Now, I say the majority of those mixed bloods and some full bloods should be diverced from govern- mental supervision, turned loose— give them their lands and their money — and with the balance I would exercise a litle closer super- vision than we are exercising. The Chairman. Take the numerous cases of Indians who have bor- rowed a certain sum of money and have been compelled to pay 10 per cent per quarter interest on amounts largely in excess of the amount they actually got. Is that class of Indians competent, in your judgment? Mr. Carroll, Some of them are, Senator, I think. The Chairman. Your idea is that they are going to be robbed any- way and they had better be turned loose, and tlie sooner it is over with the better? Mr. Carroll. I do not think that, Senator. The Chairman, I am curious to know your viewpoint. I realize it is a great problem. Mr. Carroll. When I find out, for instance, that an Indian who is practically a white man has taken his trust fund and bought an auto- mobile and landed up in Chehalis, in the State of Washington, and hocked his automobile and begins to telegraph for money, I think he has done the proper thing. I think he is in a good plight. I do not see how you can regulate or legislate frugality into anybody. The Chairman. But here is the point: When we assume that he is not frugal and that he can not be frugal, and we appoint somebody to supervise him. we are under some obligation to see that the man that supervises him is frugal for him. That is a distinction, I think, that needs to be made. Mr. Carroll. Yes ; that is all right. The Chairman. Now. is it not a crime against the laws of Okla- homa to take an Indian's note for $:i00 or $190 and let him have actually $10? . Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many of those cases have you known? Mr. Carroll. That one case was the most exaggerated. The Chairman. How many similar cases have you known? Mr. Carroll. Oh, probably two or three dozen cases that have been reported to me, where my investigation leads me to a point where I am morally sure and yet unable to prove the fact. The Chairman. 'How many of those cases have you called to the attention of the United States district attorney? Mr. Carroll. I do not think I have called any. The Chairman. Have there been no prosecutions of that kind? Mr. Carroll. No, sir ; I do not think so. The Chairman. Don't you think that if you had reported those cases to the district attorney he might at least have checked that fraud on them— that is, such a common and coarse form of fraud ! Mr. Carroll. Is that part of the duties of the district attorney ( Wouldn't that be a civil action in the county courts? The Chairman. You have just said it was a crime, and 1 should think that a superintendent of an agency who has had a dozen cases of that sort with the Indians under his supervision would feel dis- 1414 OSAGE RESERVATION. posed to call it to the attention of the district attorney. That would be a matter, however, for your determination. I have an idea, though, that if I were superintendent of an agency and one case of that sort was called to my attention I would call it to the attention of the district attorney and let him see Mr. Carroll. What he could find out? The Chairman. Yes ; what could be done about it. Mr. Carroll. I make it a rule, of course, to bring to the attention of the attorney every case where we think there is any chance of prosecution. I do not feel we have been remiss in that respect; but to write the district attorney that I believe that John Jones actually loaned this fellow $10 and got his note for $190, and I wish you would investigate — I am afraid the attorney would think I was quite a nuisance. The Chairman. No; I do not think so. I do not think there is an officer in the United States that would not be glad to have that kind of a case called to his attention if he wanted to do his duty, because, under the laws of every State in the Union that I have examined, it is plainly a criminal offense. In any event, I feel that if those Indians are under your supervision and those cases are called to your attention, you might do something to try to stop that kind of transaction, and that a failure to call it to the attention of any proper prosecuting officer or grand jury or court of the United States tends to acquiesce in it, to encourage it, to promote it. Now, I want to ask you about another matter. Mr. Carroll. I was just going to say this in relation to com- petency. I was discussing this sometime ago in my office with the employees. I made the statement that if a man's competency were to be determined by the yardstick of success in business, that the only employee at the Osage Agency Avho would come within that classification would be the old negro messenger. Senator Lane. That applies to whites as well as Indians? Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes, Senator. Senator Lane. Over 90 per cent of all business enterprises fail, do they not? Mr. Carroll. None of us in the office, save this old negro mes- senger, who gets the smallest salary, have anything to show for the money we have made. Senator Lane. You are not beating the Indian much, then, on your record in that respect? Mr. Carroll. Well, no; but I mean this — I would be offended with anybody who said I was not competent. Senator Lane. I understand. The conclusion is that if you fail, and the Indian fails too, you are all going down the same road. I do not see where the distinction comes in. The Chairman. That is just what he says. He does not make any distinction. Mr. Carroll. I say I think a man may be competent and yet be a business failure. Representative Stephens. Mr. Carroll, is it not often the case that a rich man dies and leaves his sons with a large estate, and they squander it and never do any good until the last dollar is gone, and very often those fellows go to work and make good men? Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1415 Eepresentative Stephens. I have seen that often myself. Mr. Carroll. I wanted to say this further, Senator, with refer- ence to your point about the district attorney: We have had quite an anomalous situation down there for some time. In fact, it was there when I went there and still exists. Our tribal attorney, who, of course, gets the lion's share in the way of salary — $5,000 a year The Chairman. Who is your attorney? Eepresentative Stephens. Mr. Shinn. Mr. Carroll (continuing). $5,000 a year and traveling expenses, against $2,750 for the superintendent, and $150 of that for a bond — but the superintendent is not making any play for more salary • The Chairman. Of course, Mr. Carroll, some of the biggest prob- lems in the service are connected with that agency. It is due to a culmination of circumstances. The large amount of property and the controversies that have arisen over the leases are only two of the circumstances that affect that problem. Is there a feeling of hos- tility between the white people and the Indians in that country ? Mr. Carroll. Why, I do not think so, Senator. You must remem- ber this — don't forget this all the time : That so many of those In- dians are white people The Chairman. To all intents and purposes. Mr. Carroll. I am living next door to a member _ of that nation whose children are in my house every day, whose family far outdress mine. I can not afford to dress my little girls as he dresses his. The Chairman. He is rich ? Mr. Carroll. He is rich and I am poor. They are intelligent; they are refined. Why, there are a lot of those people, you know, who are white people. They are not blanket Indians. Eepresentative Stephens. Chief Brown himself is a white man ? Mr. Carroll. Yes ; he is a white man. You have to divide those people into two classes before you can do anything. Now let me finish this. I started to tell you about this condi- tion of the tribal attorney. I have felt that the attorney should be in the office of the Osage' Agency ; should have his office right there and his library there: and that every legal question that is involved in any communication or any complaint that involves a matter ol law or investigation ought to be turned over to that attorney. Me can be furnished with a good library, a good stenographer, and be the legal adviser to the office and the department and to the Osage Nation and to any individual Indian who wants advice. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, how is it handled now? What does the attorney do? Where does he live < Mr Carroll. He lives in town. He has an office down town. The Chairman. Does he do a general practice? Mr Carroll. He does a general practice. . The Chairman. Have you known of cases where he took retainers, or his firm where the interests of his special clients proved adverse to those of the Osage Indians? « OT1Q+Ar t have heard it Mr Carroll. I do not know of cases, Senator. 1 ha™ heaici it intimated once or twice that he had done things of that kind. I W0 Tt S£SS!w^S,T"cSS[-iae for you to state anything you can lor the record. If it is a matter of opinion, of course, it 1416 OSAGE RESERVATION. would not be proper, perhaps, to put it in the record. If you have knowledge about it Mr. Carroll. I have no knowledge. I think that if the tribal attorney in the future — if his relation to the office were such as I think it should be. the work down there would be very much facilitated. The Chairman. Is it not a fact that the tribal council is insisting upon the retention of the present attorney? Mr. Carroll. I do not know what the attitude of the council is. The Chairman. I have some information to that effect. Mr. Carroll. I imagine the council feels friendly toward the attorney. (Here followed a short informal discussion which was not re- ported.) The Chairman. What official duties do you know of the tribal at- torney for the Osages having performed during the time you have been superintendent of that reservation. What has he actually done that you know of? Mr. Carroll. I think he has filed a supplemental brief in one case, involving title to a piece of land on the Arkansas River — an allot- ment; that he has made a few trips to Washington, Guthrie, and around on official business in the interest of matters which he evi- dently considered justified him in incurring these expenses; also that he has met with the council in its various sessions and drawn reso- lutions for them, assisting them in the preparation of their minutes, and in general, that he has discharged the duties imposed by his contract. The Chairman. What is the total number of employees at your agency ? Mr. Carroll. I think about 15. The Chairman. Are you doing any demonstration work in agri- culture or anything of that sort? Mr. Carroll. Xo. sir. The Chairman. Have you a school there, an agency school? Mi-. Carroll. We are doing a litle there at the school; that is all. The Chairman. What is the total number of pupils in that school? Mr. Carroll. I think probably 7f> or 80. The Chairman. Are there other schools on the reservation? Mr. Carroll. Not for the Indians; but they are admitted to any public school. The Chairman. How do they seem to get along in the public schools ( Mr. Carroll. I think they are getting along pretty well. The only question is their attendance. It is difficult to secure regular attend- ance. That is the trouble. The Chairman. Do you know what the school population of the Indians of that tribe is. approximately? Mr. Carroll. Probably 900. The Chairman. What are the health conditions among the Osages? Mr. Carroll. I think thev have pretty good health, comparatively speaking. The Chairman. Have they much tuberculosis among them? Mr. Carroll. Xot a great deal; not as much as some of the achan tribes. The Chairman. Trachoma? OSAGE RESERVATION. 1417 Mr. Carroll. We do not have that to the extent that some of the southwestern Indians do. The Chairman. Trachoma is reputed to be quite common among most of the Oklahoma Indians. Mr. Carroll. They have some there; but I am only comparing it with the Apaches, for instance, with whom I lived so long. I would say it is not so prevalent there as among the Apaches. The Chairman. Do you know an Indian described by the name of Nora Childers, with a guardian by the name of Millard ? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Has any disposition been made of her property? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. An application was formerly pending for author- ity to sell it ? Mr. Carroll. Yes. The Chairman. That action has been suspended? Mr. Carroll. It was not taken. There was something that stopped it. We have a special man there, and have had him for several months, going through all those old guardianships and administra- tions. The Chairman. The commissioner has been investigating that very fully. Mr. Carroll. I wrote the commissioner some time ago and put that up to him, and recommended that he send a man out there, and he promptly complied with my request. The Chairman. Have you many professional guardians or admin- istrators among your Indians? I mean, who are appointed for the Indians ? Mr. Carroll. Well, I do not think so. The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Ed. Kennedy? Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know how many he is guardian or admin- istrator for? Mr. Carroll. I do not. The Chairman. Do you know how many Brenner and Bird are guardians or administrators for? Mr. Carroll. I do not. They could not be for more than five. That is the State law. The Chairman. How long has that been in force ? Eepresentative Stephens. I think that is a recent rule. The Chairman. Yes; quite recent. Have you many farm-land leases on .that reservation? Mr. Carroll. A great many, Senator. The Chairman. Who approves them ? Mr. Carroll. They are approved by the Secretary of the Interior. The Chairman. Do you know of any cases where oil wells have been sunk on land not leased by the trespassers ? Mr. Carroll. The lands not leased ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. Your attention has never been called to any cases where they have just gone out and put down a well on lands they did not have a lease on? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. 1418 OSAGE RESERVATION". The Chairman. Do you know Met-See-No or Mary Mudd, an Osage Indian widow? Mr. Carroll. I think I do. The Chairman. What is her condition? . Mr. Carroll. It seems to me we sent her off to Hot Springs or somewhere else recently. I won't be sure. The Chairman. Is she indigent? Is she needy? Mr. Carroll. I do not think any of them are what you would call indigent. The Chairman. Do you know whether she has suitered tor any of the necessities of life or not? Mr. Carroll. I have not heard so. The Chairman. Has that case been called to your attention? Mr. Carroll. No, sir. The Chairman. There has been some information here that she has been unable to get sufficient of her trust fund to provide the T"lPpAQQ"l"f"l PS OT 111© Mn Carroll. I do not think that could be so. In any emergency, you know, we always telegraph, and the authority is always forth- coming. The Chairman. How is medical assistance procured for the In- dians? Mr. Carroll. We have a contract physician there at the school who looks after the pupils there, but they provide their own — people outside of the school, you know. The Chairman. Are they paid out of the trust funds in some instances ? Mr. Carroll. Not unless it is some specific case. For instance, we might want to send a man to Oklahoma City for an operation, or Tulsa'or Arkansas City, or Kansas City, or some place like that, where we guarantee the fee. In that case we have a check drawn to cover that. The Chairman. What do you consider the most serious problem surrounding the service at the Osage Agency ? Mr. Carroll. I think, as I said in the beginning, the wealth of the Indians and the special legislation that applies to the Osage, par- ticularly the act of April 18, 1912. I think that is an unfortunate piece of legislation The Chairman. What provision of it do you refer to? Mr. Carroll. I think it was unfortunate that the determination of heirs was taken away from the Secretary of the Interior and de- volved upon the county court. I think that was unfortunate. The Chairman. Do you know of cases where it seems to have worked evil? Mr. Carroll. Well, it takes about 14 months now to wind up an estate, to determine the heirs, you know. The Chairman. You know there are some cases of heirship that have been pending in the department here for a great many years, the theory being that the force in the office has not been sufficient to properly investigate the cases and wind them up. I think there are some cases that have been pending five years, so that would not seem to be a tenable objection. Mr. Carroll. No ; that would not seem to be. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1419 The Chairman. What has this to do with it? One of the great troubles in any country where Indians own any considerable amount of property is that, very naturally, a long-continued trouble arises out the disposition of the white man to go after what he has got and to get it. And I imagine that local courts may in some instances be, unconsciously at least, subject to local influences. Mr. Carroll. Do not understand me as saying that the courts are corruptible. I do not charge that, of course, at all. The Chairman. I have no hesitancy in saying that, so far as the administration of Indian funds in the probate courts of Oklahoma is concerned, they are open to any sort of attack that imght be made upon them Mr. Carroll. I mean this particular court. The Chairman. I understood you that way. I am speaking now of the general trouble. Why should not a local court, residing in the immediate locality of the parties, and having such knowledge as necessarily comes to one who is necessarily associated intimately with the circumstances surrounding the case be better able to determine it than somebody in the bureau? Mr. Carroll. I think the principal trouble with the act is its obscurity. The courts, the office, and the department are unable to reconcile their views. They do not know how to determine it, it seems. Section 6 of that act, relating to partitions of estates, seems to be calculated to work a very serious hardship on the Indians. An in- competent Indian can be made a party to a partition, whether he wants to be or not. A lawyer can induce any heir to file a partition suit, not consulting other heirs or my office, and make every other heir a party to it and pile up attorneys' fees ; and it does not seem to me right that it should be done that way. The Chairman. I do not think I have any further questions now. I may want to confer with you again about some different matters. Eepresentative Stephens. Osage County, I believe you stated, is all Indian country ? That is one of the counties of Oklahoma I Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. The present Osage County was formerly the Osage Eeservation. Representative Stephens. The Indians are all voters there, are * Mr. Carroll. I do not believe they all vote, but I should think they had a right to. , T , „ Representative Stephens. As a matter of fact, they have. I hey do not vote in the election of the county officers? Mr Carroll. A good many of them do. I saw one member of the Osage Nation the other day sitting on a Federal grand jury Representative Stephens. Do they hold any ol the county offices? Mr Carroll. I do not believe any of our present officers are Osages, but there are some of them who are quite as capable as the present officers, I should say. u, 1Q ; noco ^ (The joint commission thereupon proceeded to other business.) Department of the Interior, Office of Indian Superintendent, Pairhuska, Okla., march 26, 19Uf. Mr Dear Senator: In ^ ^t«^^ ^^^^Xn of T^l^tZt T^tliT^ZVlZS^ZXo^a you personally to send you some 1420 OSAGE RESEBVATION. information from the records concerning the cases of Rose Bacon Rind, Paul Albert. John and Mary MeFall, George Tayrien, and John A. Fugate, and have attached a separate memorandum in each case. I also inclose a paper which each Indian and creditor was required to sign — the creditor under onlh — before any check would be drawn. In all cases Indians were cosely questioned as to items and amounts, and unless an Indian was reasonably certain that the account was correct and he wnnted to pay it there was no settlement. If the creditor and the Indian could not agree, the creditor h.;d to accept what the Indian said he owed or nothing. The burden of proof w.-is always upon the creditor, but if he proved his claim and did not convince tin- Indian the Indian was not allowed to pay through the office. It was the voluntary payment of an acknowledged and seemingly just debt or there was nothing paid. Rose Bacon Rind has never asked to ha\e a house built. She did ask to have her debts paid, and all facts were before the Indian Office and the department when her claim was allowed. Although Rose does not read nor write she is an intelligent woman, and has spoken and understood English from childhood. If you care to have a state- ment from her I will ask Mr. Baker, the examiner in probate matters, to take her deposition without the presence of anyone who has had anything to do with her case, or with this office. In giving my testimony concerning John A. Fugate, I find that I have done him some injustices, as I confused him with another young man, now in the State of Washington, who was given a considerable sum of back annuity money, not trust funds. Mr. Fugate and his mother have been in the office and were questioned concerning the disposition of his trust funds. Both consider that the business experience gained in having the unrestricted use of the money was most beneficial. He is now about 2."> years of age, of one-sixteenth Osage blood, of fair education, good habits, has a white wife and a baby. His trust funds were expended as follows: For house on surplus lands ' $500.00 Another house (the first one having blown down) 1,000.00 Cattle, horses, and buying back lease on lands 1,200.00 Farming implements, feed, and fences 500.00 Team previously bought 250.00 Not accounted for 369.76 3,819.76 He t laded a tram with colts, wagon, and harness, and a lease on his home- stead for an automobile. The machine was old and was used up in four months, so, without consulting the former owner and lessee, he took possession of the homestead and has it now. He has ."> horses, two milch cows, 2 hogs, and owes $500 on a team. He has two teams at work in the oil fields from which he earns, net, $100 a month. Farming has not been profitable in Oklahoma for the past four years. I consider that the boy has made a fair showing, without counting the benefit gained from his experience. I have inquired into the case of Mary Mudd, a full blood about 60 years of age, and find that she has received through this office since March 1, 1913, $2,414.86 ($180 from rentals and $2,2.",4.N<1 from interest on tribal fund and oil and gas royalties), and all paid direct to her as required by the law. Also, she has received money from leases made outside the office. She has no one but herself to support, has lived with her daughter, and for several months has lived with her son at Avant, Okla. Both she and her son stated in the office yesterday that she had plenty of food and clothing, a comfortable place to live, and that the only thing that she has to complain about is rheumatism, ;,nd that she had enough money and is going to Claremore hot springs for treat- ment. She appears to be well nourished, and was comfortably and neatly clad. It is possible that the rumors of suffering and lack of money were put into circulation by persons who have tried to induce her to sell her inherited land. The office beard some months ago that some person had told her that it had to be sold through the county court in a suit for partition. Mary is the sole heir of her daughter, and she has been warned about signing any deeds, or deeds disguised as leases. She can not speak English, but her son has a fair education. In thinking over my testimony I find that I expressed myself rather too strongly with regard to usury, referring to it as a crime, whereas, under the OSAGE EESEKVATION. 1421 statutes of Oklahoma (Harris-Day Code) the penalty is forfeiture of twice the amount of the usurious interest only. Laymen are prone unthinkingly to characterize any violation of law as a crime. In cases of usury the remedy is, of course, an action by the Indian in the State courts; but, the Indians, with reason, hare little faith in their being able to win in a suit against a white man who can produce their notes as evidence against their oral statements. I would like to bring to your attention something which occurred a day or two after I appeared before your committee. Mr. Keating asked me whether I had talked with anyone concerning my testimony, and I told him that I had spoken to no one but rhe commissioner and assistant commissioner, and then only to say that I had tried to give full and frank answers to all interroga- tories. The reason Mr. Keating gave for asking the question was that some of the testimony had already leaked out and he could not locate the source. I found when I reached Pawluiska that many of my statements, greatly exag- gerated, had been in circulation here for several clays. As the only persons present other than the members of the commission and myself were the secre- tary of the commission and the official stenographer and Mr. Sloan, it should not be very difficult to locate the leak. After testifying I talked with the commissioner about a number of matters in connection with Osage affairs, and I was glad to find that the commissioner was now making of broader scope contracts with tribal attorneys, and instead of contracts requiring attorneys to represent Indians in tribal affairs only, that attorneys are to be required in future to assist in the work of the office in tribal or individual matters, to give friendly legal advice to Indians, and to assist the office in carrying out the provisions of section 3 of the act of April 18, 1912. This was the point that I tried to bring out in my testimony with refer- ence to the existing contract with the present tribal attorney. Assuming that the letter of the contract has been carried out, I am of the opinion that the new contract as proposed by the commissioner will secure to the Indians, as a nation and individually, a service more commensurate with the compensation that is being paid. Developments in connection with probate matters by the special examiner who was sent here, as well as a recent opinion by the Assistant Attorney Gen- eral for the Interior Department, strengthen my conviction that the act of April 18, 1912, was a most unfortunate piece of legislation. Under depart- mental interpretation of the act, the Government can not protect the rights of many incompetent Indians. When an Osage Indian who has a certificate of competency dies, the only property that remains under control of the Govern- ment is his trust funds and oil and gas royalties, and there is nothing that the Government can do to protect the interests of his children in respect to real property. If he has not a certificate of competency, the restrictions follow as to tribal Indians who have no certificates of competency. The cost of pro- bating and partitioning an Osage estate is, on an average, about 15 per cent of the value of the land. In a recent case the cost was over $500 to divide bout 1,300 acres between three equal heirs, who made their own selections and agreed upon them, and the same division could have been made out of court under section 6 of the act of April 18, 1912, without any cost. There is no doubt that Indians are frequently advised by interested persons that their cases must be taken into the courts; and as attorneys take advantage of the fact that the act does not specifically require copies of papers filed m the district court to be served on the superintendent, as is the case with papers filed in the county court, action is taken in the district court without my knowledge, except in a few instances, and it is then too late to aid the ward of the Government in the matter of fees. If there is anything more that you would like to know about the above cases or any other I will be glad to inform you further. I desire to work in full harmony with your commission, and it is my pleasure as well as my duty to assist in procuring and reporting all material facts in connection with com- plalnts concerning Osage matters, irrespective of the character of the persons making them or their motives. I am willing that this letter should be made a part of the record. Very truly, yours, ^^ CarrolLj 8 »peHntendmt. Hon. Job T. Robinson, Chairman Joint Commission of Congress to Investigate Indian Affairs. 35601— pt 12—14 3 1422 OSAGE RESERVATION. Rose Bacon Rind (full-blood Osage). Warrant for trust funds deposited iu bank May 28, 1913 $1, 941. 28 Interest accrued while on deposit 2. 82 1, 944. 10 Checked out from June 23 to Aug. 28. 1913, as follows : Bright Roddy (merchandise) $46.25 Osage Mercantile Co. (merchandise) 107.00 Citizens National Bank, Pawhuska 900.00 Do 260.00 Andrews & Co. (hardware) 37.80 Self 60.00 Do 60.00 Do 90.00 F. T. Williamson (horse) 150.00 Self 60.00 F. T. Williamson 10.90 F. S. Kelly (furniture) 130.00 Pawhuska Furniture Co. (furniture) 30.00 Self 2.15 1, 944. 10 The trust funds were withdrawn for the purpose of paying debts and au- thority given by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to make such disburse- ments and also, at her request, to pay a monthly allowance out of the balance. Paul Albert (full-Wood Osage). Warrant for trust funds deposited in bank June 4, 1913 $1,922.96 Interest accrued while on deposit 2.63 1, 925. 59 Checked out from July 29. 1013, to December 1, 1913, as follows: Self _ $50.00 Bright Roddy (merchandise) 91.10 Self " ^ qo jjo 10 00 Self (paid to Mrs. Ann M. McG. La Motte) 907 22 Self _ " 15 " oo Osage Mercantile Co. (merchandise) _ 51 45 sew' Crews ( ° n house) ZZZZZZZZZZZZ eooioo boZ.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz z Do Do Do 20.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 49.07 Citizens' National Bank, Pawhuska, $601.75, made into cash- ier's checks and paid as follows : Bird and Brenner (27 small notes for money borrowed from June 6, 1913, to July 29, 1913) $Qir, k American National Bank. Powhuska, note 7T 00 Osage Mercantile Co. (merchandise) Z~ "" 12 00 Hugh S. Jarvis (insurance) "" 17 'r£ Hominy Trading Co \8L1S0 1, 323. 84 601. 75 1, 925. 59 DrOTini"™^-" xTtV- Ud C -n im n " owed f01 ' the purpose of P a y iQ g debts > im " SIS L 5? d T Vlllage ' and the balance t0 be P ai d " necessity To mLeThe exSdiCs *' ^ ^^ ^ ^ Com ™ on - <>' I^ian Affairs OSAGE RESERVATION. 1423 John and Mary McFall (full-Wood Osages). John McFall : Trust funds deposited Sept. 10. 1913 $3, 889. 88 Interest accrued in bank 4.61 3, 894. 49 Checked out from September 9. 1913, to February 2, 1914, as follows : Bertie B. Maber (one-half purchase price of 160 acres of land, with house and other improvements* $3,500.00 Wagon and harness ' 200. 00 Self 80. 00 Self (furniture) 88. 50 Self 25. 99 3, 894. 49 Mary McFall : Trust funds deposited Sept. 10, 1913 3,889.88 Interest accrued in bank 4.46 3, 894. 34 Checked out from September 10. 1913 to January 19, 1914, as follows : Bertie B. Maher (one-half purchase price of 160 acres of land, with house and other improvements) $3,500.00 Self (hogs, chickens, and turkevs) 290.50 Self (feed) 50. 00 Self 53.84 3, 894. 34 Application was made and claim allowed for the purpose of purchasing the old home of Mary McFall, where she lived as a child. The appraised value was $7,000. The deed was made to them jointly, with restrictions on alienation without the approval of the Secretary of the Interior until 1931, and the deed is recorded in the office of the register of deeds, Osage County. All the above expenditures were made under authority given by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. George A. Tayrien (one thirty-second blood Osage). Trust funds deposited Feb. 27, 1913 $3,880.40 Checks to his order on same day as follows : For purchase price of $209.75 acres of land for unallotted minor child, with restrictions on alienation during minority without the ap- proval of the Secretary of the Interior 2, 000. 00 To recover land leased for four years, rentals paid in advance, $1,000 ; and $880.40 for unrestricted use 1,880.40 3, 880. 40 Balance of 5 cents paid on check Aug. 13, 1913 • 05 3, 880. 45 Application was made and claim allowed for the purposes above specified and disbursements were made under authority given by the Commissioner of Indian Affaire. John A. Fugate (one-sixteenth Wood Osage). Attached is a copy of a report prepared by Vernon Whiting competency com- miilne^ for the superintendent's signature, to accompany the application of J °The A aio™t e of^ r he r warranf was $3,819.72 and was paid to him witbout re- striction? ™ recommended, with the approval of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior. 1424 OSAGE RESERVATION. KUPKRlNTEKHKNT's RKVoHT ON AlTLICAriON KOI! OSACiE FUNDS. Nime John \ Fugate ; age, 21 vears. Allotment No. 1342. Approved roll No. 122! i. (Current roll No. 2392.) De- gree of Indian blood, one-sixteenth. Inherited interests (name of allottee, number of allotments, and proportion) : No inherited estate. I. Has applicant any money in the Treasury from sale of inherited laud? (If so, how much and what land?) No. ,.„,„„„ 2 Average annual income, including rentals.' About $600 a year. 3. What money is applied for? Individual Osage trust fund, $3,819.70. 4. Do you know applicant personally? Yes. 5. Does applicant speak and understand English? Yes. 6. Is he living in an Indian or a white community? White. 7. Has applicant a good character and reputation? Yes. 8 Does applicant use intoxicants; and if so, to what extent? No. 9 Is applicant in debt? (If so, to what extent and for what purpose was debt incurred?) About $S00. for money used in building a house and for living expenses. , 10. Number in family (spouse and minor children). Self and wife (white) ; no children. . II. If applicant is separated from family, with whom are minor children, and who supports them? (Give particulars.) Applicant lives with his wife and supports her. 12. Has applicant a certificate of competency? (If so, give date.) No. 13. Have minor children's moneys and lands been properly expended and managed? (Give particulars.) No minor allotted children. 14. To what extent, if any, is applicant physically or mentally disabled? Ap- plicant and his wife are in good health. 15. If the applicant is a minor of school age, is he in school? (What school? If not, why?) 16. Do you believe the applicant can and will properly handle the amount applied for, or any part thereof? (How much, if any?) Yes. 17. Do you consider it to the best interest and welfare of the applicant to pay all or a part of the sum applied for? (Why?) $3,819.76, that applicant may pay his indebtedness and improve his lands, and also to use $300 of it to procure possession of his homestead, which is leased for this and next year, the rent being paid in advance. 18. How much do you recommend be paid? All, $3,819.76. 19. Do you recommend that any or all, if paid, be deposited and handled under your supervision? None. 20. If application is made by a guardian, state whether you consider him a competent and reliable person, who will manage the money to the best interest of his ward? (Why?) 21. If not, have you made any protest or complaint to the court? 22. Are you personally acquainted with the guardian? (If not, on what do you base your statement?) 23. If the applicant is a white person, state whether he has an Indian wife or any Indian children. And if so, who are they and what property have they? Applicant is a one-sixth Osage married to a white woman. 24. Is he living with and supporting his Indian family? 25. If he has an Indian family, is he of good character and reputation, and competent? 26. What do you recommend as to payment? $3,819.76 to be paid to applicant direct. I hereby certify that the following statement was made orally by the appli- cant to Vernon Whiting, competency commissioner, and I believe applicant to be worthy of belief. Applicant states that he has not promised or agreed, orally or in writing, to pay anyone for services in connection with this claim, and that he has not been induced by anyone to make this application. I also certify to the truth of my above report on the application. Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1425 Remarks. — Applicant is just past 21 years of age, one-sixteenth Osage, has a good education, is strong and healthy, and has the qualification to properly manage his own business. He is sober and industrious. He has resources out- side of his Osage estate and surplus land, consisting of household goods, team of horses, two cows, and some farming machinery, all of which is clear of incum- brance. He is in debt about $800, which money was used in building upon his homestead. Applicant states that he wishes possession of his homestead, which is leased for two years in advance, move thereon with his wife, and farm the land. His Indian blood is hardly noticeable, and he is virtually a white man. Osage Indian Agency, Pawhuska, Okla., February 26, 191J h James A. Carroll, Superintendent Osage Indian Agency. Dear Sir: Following is the synopsis showing the extent of acreage contained in the Foster lease, amount developed, amount undeveloped, total number of dry holes, oil wells, and gas wells, according to schedules : Total acreage. Acreage de- veloped. Acreage unde- veloped. Development. Dry. Oil. Gas. Schedule No. 1. 142, 950 102, 101 40, 849 352 865 57 Schedule No. 2. (More than 5,000 and less than 10,000 acres.) 8,960 8,320 5,880 9,340 9,020 5,280 5,760 320 5,880 4,420 4,400 5,280 3,200 8,000 3 1 12 24 17 23 20 4 111 65 84 122 5,120 4,620 8 Schedule No. 3. (More than 10,000 and less than 20,000 acres.) 10, 160 10, 750 7,500 2,550 2,560 8,200 12 3 17 4 Schedule No. 4. (More than 20,000 and less than 40,000 acres.) 32,620 22, 160 27,520 23,180 10,400 1,280 9,440 11,760 26, 240 47 23 3 245 46 10 4 Schedule No. 5. (More than 40,000 and less than 50,000 acres.) 46,800 19,030 29,570 50 53 7 Schedule No. 6. (More than 50,000 acres.) 334, 757 132,270 202, 487 269 695 51 676,317 324, 271 352, 046 839 2,323 145 "SB Wells drilled by Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co. 17 13 77 Very respectfully, j. F. York, Oil Inspector. 1426 OSAGE RESERVATION. Schedule xhoicing number of subdieision, tract, description, lessee, development, and production up to Jan. 31, 1911/, under oil and gas mining leases approved under regulations of July 3, 1912. [Asterisk indicates the several tracts that were leased under the letting of Nov. 11, 1912. Remalnde r was leased under administration of Commissioner Sells.] Sub- Description. Lessee. Development. Production divi- sion No. C i | a | a 1 o Remarks. *4 Tract No. 4. Sees. 27, 28, 33, 34, T. 24, E. 9. Sees. 29, 30, 31, T. 24, E. 9. Sees. 5, 7, 8, 9, T. 23, E.9. Sec. 11, T. 22, R. 9.... Continental Oil & Refining Co. and Prairie Oil & Gas Co. do 1 1 Barrels. *5 l *6 do 1 Small. *11 do 1 1 1 1 *18 Sec. 29, T. 22, R. 9... do *22 Sec. 34, T. 21, R. 9... Sec. 20, T. 22, R. 10... Sec. 21, T. 22, R. 10 .. Steel, Elliott, Bisset & McClintoek. Continental Oil & Refining Co. and Prairie Oil & Gas Co. do *24 *25 1 2 3,643.41 2,798.20 *2ii S. * sec. 22, T. 22, E. 10 N.Jseo.22,T.22,R.10 E. i sec. 14, T. 22, R. 10. W. 1 sec. 14, T. 22, E. 10 Sec. 16, T. 22, E. 10... Sec. 11, T. 22, R. 10... Sec. 33, T. 23, E. 10... Tract No. 5. Lot 1, sec. 6, T. 21, R.8. Lot 2, sec. 6, T. 21, R.8. Lot 3, sec. 6, T. 21, R. 8. Lot 4, sec. 6, T. 21, R.8. Lot 5, sec. 6, T. 21 R. 8. Lot 6, sec. 6, T. 21, R.8. Lot 7, sec. 6, T. 21, E. 8. E. J of NE. J of sec. 2 t. 21, E. 7 Sees. 1, 2, 3, 4, and fractional sees. 9, 10, 11, 12, T. 22, E. 7. NW. J sec. 2, T. 21, E.7. NE. i sec. 3, T. 21, E.7. NW. J sec. 3, T. 21, R.7. NE. i sec. 4, T. 21, E.7. NW. 1 sec. 4, T. 21 R.7. Lots 1 and 10, sec. 5, T. 21, R. 7. Sees. 4,5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and N. * sees. 16, 17, 18. T. 23, R.8. 1 do *27 do 1 3 *28 West Virginia Osage Oil Co. Southwest Oil Co. & Steel. Continental Oil & Refining Co. and Prairie Oil & Gas Co. Southwest Oil Co. & Steel. Continental Oil & Refining Co. and Prairie Oil & Gas Co. Gypsv Oil Co 2 2 3, 993. 63 483.28 *29 *30 1 1 1 1 1 *31 1 *32 1 2 do l l 3 do 3 1 1 1 1 78,057.65 2 months. 4 do 5 do l 6 Twin State Oil Co .. Gypsy Oil Co Prairie Oil & Gas Co. 7 8 1 *10 Keystone Oil & Gas Co. and Prairie Oil & Gas Co. Savoy Oil Co l 11 1 12 M. A. Brast 1 Rig on ground. 13 Summit Oil & Gas Co. do 1 14 15 Finance Oil Co. & Markham, jr. M. A. Brast 16 *17 Kennedy Springer, and White, and Sinclair. 4 6,823.70 4 months' run; 1 combination well. OSAGE RESERVATION. Schedule showing number of subdivision, etc. — Continued. 1427 Sub- divi- sion No. Description. Development. Production Remarks. 18 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 *28 *29 30 31 32 33 34 37 Tract No. 5— Con. E.jSE.isec.2,T.21, SWi i sec. 2, T. 21, R 7 SE.Ysec. 3, T. 21, R.7 SW. i sec. 3, T. 21 R.7. SE. J sec. 4, T. 21, R.7. SW. i sec. 4, T. 21, R.7. Lots 8 and 9 sec. 5, T. 21, R. 7. NW. i sec. 9, T. 21, Sec'30, T. 22, R. 8... 61 71 72 74 76 Sec. 31, T. 22, R. 8.... NE. i sec. 9, T. 21 NW. i sec. 10, T. 21, NE.' j'sec. 10, T. 21, NW. j see. 11, T. 21, W. \ NE. \ sec. 11, T. 21. R. 7. E. iNE. J sec. 11, T. NV. JNW. J sec. 12, T. 21, R. 7. NE. } NW. J sec. 12, T. 21, R. 7. Lot 6, sec. 12, T. 21, R.7. W. JSE. J sec. 11, T. SW.' i sec. 11, T. 21, R.7. SE. } sec. 10, T. 21, SW.' j'sec. 10, T. 21, SE.'jsec. 9, T. 21, R. 7. Lots 3 and 4 and NE. i SW. i sec. 9, T. 21, R. 7. Lots 1 and 2, sec. 16, T. 21, R. 7. Lots 1 and 2, sec. 15, T. 21. R. 7. N. £ NE. i and lots 3 and 4, sec. 15, T. 21, N. £NW. J and lots 1 and 2, sec. 14, T. 21, R 7 NE.' j'NE. J sec. 25, T 22 R. 7. NW. j'NE. \ sec. 25, T. 22. R. 7. SE. J NE. } sec. 36, T 22 R. 7. SW! i NE. } sec. 36, T 22 R. 7. NE! j'SE'. } sec. 36, T 22 R 7. NW. l'SE. I sec. 36, T. 22, R. 7. SE. I SE. J sec. 36, T 22 R. 7. SW'. } 'SE'. j sec. 36, T. 22, R. 7. Prairie Oil & Gas Co. Laurel Oil & Gas Co. Finance Oil Co. & Markham, jr. Summit Oil & Gas Co. M. A. Bras! Summit Oil & Gas Co. ....do .do.. Prairie O. & G. Co.: Shulthis & South- west Oil Co. Minnehoma Oil Co. . Gypsy Oil Co 12 .do. Summit Oil & Gas Co. J. W. Stroud Savoy Oil Co. Prairie Oil & Gas Co. Gypsy Oil Co ....do ....do ....do C.C.Nelson.. M. A. Brast. .. Gypsy Oil Co . do Summit Oil & Gas Co. M. A. Brast Summit Oil & Gas Co. J. S. Cosden Finance Oil Co. and Markham, jr. Monitor Oil & Gas Co. ....do Roxana Petroleum Co. Minnehoma Oil Co. Prairie Oil & Gas Co. do .do. .do. Barrels. Rig on ground. 123, 587. 80 7 months. Rig on ground. Do. Do. 16,715.10 2 months. 1428 OSAGE RESERVATION. Schedule allowing number of subdivision, cte. — Continued. Sub- Description. Lessee. Developi nent d O Pio Suction. Remarks. divi- sion No. = ri '£ 77 78 Tract No. 5— Con. E. J NW. J sec. 25, T. 22, 1! 7. W. J NW. J sec. 25, T. 22, K. 7. E. J SW. 1 sec. 25, T. 22, R. 7. N. £ NW. \ sec. 36 T. 22, R . 7. S. J XW. ; sec. 36, T. 22, R. 7 NE. i SW. i sec. 36, T. 22, R. 7. NW. } SW. } sec. 36, T. 22, R. 7. SE. J SW. > sec. 36, T. 22, R. 7. SW. J SW. J see. 36, T. 22, It. 7. NE. J sec. 26, T. 22, R. 7. SE. J NW. i and lots 1 and 2, sec. 26 T 22, R. 7. SW. } sec. 26, T. 22 R. 7. S. J SE. J and lots 7 and 8, sec. 27 T 22, R. 7. Lots 5 and 6, sec. 27, and lot 5, sec. 28 T. 22, R. 7. NW. J sec. 34, T. 22 R.7. NE. J sec. 34, T. 22 R. 7, NW, i sec 3." T ' M R. 7. NE. .} sec, 3.5, T. 22 R. 7. SE. J sec. 35, T. 22 R. 7. SW. J sec. 35, T. 22 R. 7 SE. > sec. 34, T 2° R.7. SW. ] sec 34. T ^~> R. 7. SE. { see. 33, T. 22 R. 7 SE. of SW. and lots 4 and 5, sec. 33, T. 22, NE } sec. 19, T 2'> R.8. XW. --, sec 2s T 0l1 R. 8. ' ' ""' NE. { sec. is, T '•■'• R.8. NW'. i sec. 17, T 2" R. i NE. \ see. 17, T. 22 R.s. SE. ■} sec. 27 T ' : -> R. 8. SW. -] sec. 17, T. 22, R.s. SE. J sec. Is 'f. 22, R. 8. SW. { sec. is T 22 R.S. SE. J sec. 29, T 22 R.S. SW. ; sec. 29, T. 22, R. 8. I Gypsy Oil Co Roxana Petroleum Co. do Lawrence Gas Co. and Iron Moun- tain Oil Co. Prairie Oil & Gas Co. do 1 i 1 Barrels. Rig up. Do. Do. Do. In Bartlesv sand, show oil. Rig up. 81 82 83 i i i 1 84 do 8.1 do 1 1 86 87 Gvpsy Oil Co 1 89 M. A. Brast i l 90 Prairie Oil & Gas Co. Gypsy Oil Co 91 1 92 do i 94 do 1 95 Gvpsy Oil Co i 96 Finance Oil Co. & Mar'ubam. jr. Prairie Oil & Gas Co. Twin State Oil Co Summit Oil Co linance Oil Co. & Markham, jr. Summit Oil i. Gas Co. i inance Oil Co. & Mark-ham, jr. 1 1 1 1 1 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 105 Carter Oil Co... 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 106 107 108 Monitor Oil & Gas Co. W. S. Mowris J. W. Stroud Gypsy Oil Co Summit Oil i- Gas Co. ...do Gjpsy Oil Co .. -do Lesehen & Roeser. .. Kanawha Oil Co 1 i 109 110 1 111 112 lie of 113 114 115 OSAGE RESERVATION. Schedule showing number of subdivision, etc. — Continued. 1429 Sub- Description. Lessee. Development. Production. divi- sion No. a o S3 o o O O -1 Remarks. 118 119 Tract No. 5— Con. NE. 1 sec. 33, T. 22, R 8 NW. j sec. 34, T. 22, R. 8. NE. i sec. 34, T. 22, R 8 SE.'i'sec. 34, T. 22, R. 8. SW. i sec. 34, T. 22, R. 8. SE. i sec. 33, T. 22, R.8. Total . Finance Oil Co. & Markham, jr. M. A. Brast do Summit Oil & Gas Co. Finance Oil Co. & Markham, jr. Summit Oil & Gas Co. 1 Barrels. 120 121 122 123 1 ton sand. 40 7 35 33 18 Note. Prairie Oil & Gas Co.'s production in sec. 36, T. 22, R. 7, 105 barrels per day. Minnehoma Oil Co., sec. 31, T. 22, R. 8, 125 barrels per day. Twin State Oil Co., lot 6 of sec. 6, T. 21, R. 8, 85 barrels per day. Gypsy Oil Co., lots 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7 ot sec. 6, T. 21 R. 8, 1,200 barrels per day. West Virginia Osage Oil & Gas Co., E. J sec. 14, T. 22, R. 10, 21 barrels per day. Continental Oil & Refining Co., sec. 21, T. 22, R. 10, 18 barrels per day. Continental Oil & Refining Co., sec. 22, T. 22, R. 10, 11 barrels per day. Kennedy, Springer, White & Sinclair, sec. 8, T. 23, R. 8, 34 barrels per day. September S, 1913. Hon. Joe T. Robinson, Chairman Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, United States Senate. My Deab Senator : I have received your letter of the 4th instant, inclosing a letter from Mr. W. C. Plumb, representing the Uncle Sam Oil Co., relative to the disapproved oil and gas mining leases of that company, covering Osage lands. , I note Mr. Plumb's reference to the leasing of lands for oil and gas mining purposes recently authorized by the department, his protest on behalf of his coinpanv, and the request that the joint committee investigate this contem- plated leasing on the ground that it is an injustice to the Uncle 8am Oil Co. Before answering his assigned reasons, and in view of your request tor information and suggestions, I deem it advisable to set forth in some detail pertinent facts as they are disclosed by the records in this office^ By section 3 of the net of Congress Approved February 18, 1891 (2b Stat. L., 794), as amended by the act of August 15, 1S94 (28 Stat. I,, 305), Congress authorized leasing of Indian lands for oil and. gas mining purposes and accord- ingly in 1896, the entire Osage Reservation was leased to Edwin B. Fostei lor 10 years at a one-tenth royalty on oil and $50 per well on gas. That lease was taken over by the Indian Territory Illummating Oil Co. By act of March 3. 1905 (33 Stat. L., 1061), Congress renewed the lease m the name of that company for 680,000 acres for another V^^^J™™' increasing, however, the royalty on oil to 12* per cent, and gas at $W>0 pei well. Section 3 of the act of June 28, 1906 (34 Stat. U, 539), provided: "That the oil gas, coal, or other minerals covered by the lands for the selec- tion and division of which provision is herein made are hereby reserved to the Osa4 Mb "for a period of twenty-five years from and after the eighth day of Anrn nineteen hundred and six; and leases for all oil, gas, and other minerals by the Osage Tr *%« f \^ Vender such rules and regulations as he may of the Secretary of the Interior and lunae ^ ^^ ^.^ ^^ prescribe: Provided, That the r ^ 1 "^ ™ ' th Pregicl erit of the United KtS^'^V^S^t'TSA ^f or prospecting for any of 1430 OSAGE RESERVATION. said mineral or minerals shall be permitted on the homestead selections herein provided for without the written consent of the Secretary of the Interior: Pro- vided, howcrcr. That nothing herein contained shal be construed as affecting any valid existing lease or contract." Four proposed leases in favor of the Uncle Sam Oil Co., Wesley M. Dial, Henry J. O'Connell. and John K Bird, covering the entire unleased portion of the Osage mineral lands, were, after a hearing before the department on Feb- ruary 20, 1912, returned disapproved, for two main reasons: First, Lick of opportunity for competitive bidding; and Second, the inclusion of the so-called " written-consent " clause therein. These leases, in somewhat amended form, were again and finally disapproved by First Assistant Secretary Adams on June 14, 1912. Copy of his letter, ad- dressed to Principal Chief Brown, which sets out fully the basis for depart- mental action, is herewith. You will observe that these leases were presented prior to the promulgation of regulations authorized by section 3 of the act of June 28, 1906, supra. Such regulations were approved by the department on July 3, 1912, covered the objec- tions raised regarding the then proposed leases and the Foster lease as well. These regulations were subsequently amended on January 9, 1913, and August 25, 1913. Copies of the regulations and amendments are inclosed. Section 9 of the act of June 28, 1906, supra, provides: " That there shall be a biennial election of officers for the Osage Tribe as follows: A principal chief, an assistant principal chief, and eight members of the Osage tribal council to succeed the officers elected in the year nineteen hun- dred and six, said officers to be elected at a general election to be held in the town of Pawhuska. Oklahoma Territory, on the first Monday in June; and the first election for said officers shall be held on the first Monday in June, nine- teen hundred and eight, in the maner to be prescribed by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and said officers shall be elected for a period of two years, com- mencing on the first day of July following said election, and in case of a vacancy in the office of principal chief, by death, resignation, or otherwise, the assistant principal chief shall succeed to said office, and all vacancies in the Osage tribal council shall be filled in a manner to be prescribed by the Osage tribal council, and the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to remove from the council any member or members thereof for good cause, to be by him determined." The terms of the members of the council elected in 1910 expired July 1, 1912 An election for a new council was held on June 3, 1912, and on June 17, 1912, the election of Bacon Rind as principal chief, Henry Red Eagle, assistant prin- cipal chief, and Thomas West, councilman, was disapproved for cause and their places vacated by the Secretary of the Interior, and Chief Brown was requested to call another meeting to elect their successors prior to July 1. This, however, he failed to do. These persons protested against their removal, and on July 17, 1913, the Secre- tary affirmed his previous action, and directed the remaining members of the council to provide a method for filling the vacancies caused by removal, and specifically directed attention to the fact that important business, including the leasing of lands, would have to be considered. This request was not complied with. On January 3, 1913, Secretary Fisher removed the other members of the council, on the ground that each member thereof had proven recreant to duty owed to the tribe. I have attached a copy of the order of removal. The action of the Secretary in removing these men has since been sustained by the Courts of the District of Columbia. The actions of the council and the conditions of granting these leases were such that the department ordered a special investigation of the entire matter.' The special agent's report was of such a character that the department trans- mitted it to the Department of Justice with the request that such action be taken as might be considered appropriate. The following persons, including members of the tribe and parties interested in the procurement of the four leases, have since been indicted in the District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma, for conspiracy in connection with these leasing matters, including W. C. Plumb, to whose letter addressed to you, this letter is in reply : H. H. Tucker. A.'l. Wilson, T. J. Lehay, William Lehay, Wesley M. Dial, E. F. Scott. John Palmer, A. W. Comstock, Ed Brown, Bacon Rind, William Plumb. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1431 Trial of Mr. Plumb and other representatives of the Uncle Sam Oil Co., under charges of criminal conspiracy, is now pending. Referring again to the matters of these leases, on August 5, 1912, President Taft sustainted the action of the Secretary of the Interior. On December 12, 1912, he affirmed his previous action and wired the Osage National Council as follows : " I entirely agree with the Secretary of the Interior in refusing to approve oil leases to the Uncle Sam Oil Co., Dial, O'Connell, and Bird submitted last June. These leases were definitely disapproved. William H. Taft." On September 17, 1912, the department authoried the advertising for lease of approximately 105,000 acres of these same lands. Bids were received for about 42,000 acres, all on a 16f per cent royalty basis, and a minimum of 60 cents per barrel for oil. In addition thereto bidders offered bonuses of nearlv $142,000. The council removed, as herein stated, passed resolutions refusing to execute leases in accordance with these bids. This action was taken even though a petition, signed by a majority of the adult male members of the tribe— 273 out of 481 — was presented to the council. The council elected in January, 1913, accepted these bids, leases were executed by them, and the same have been approved by the department. The matter of further leasing these lands has been under consideration con- tinuously since. Information recently received shows that one lessee drilled three oil wells with a total natural flow of 1,400 barrels daily, and another lessee two wells, with a flow of 925 barrels, immediately adjacent to portions of the 12,000 acres of land which I have just caused to be advertise:!, thus rapidly draining and reducing in value the lands now advertised and making action in order to preyent great loss to the Indian imperative. The 12,000 acres advertised are within a radius of 4 miles of the production just referred to, and it is therefore believed that the bids which will be received will contain offers of substantial bonuses and that the leasing of the 12,000 acres advertised at this time will result in popularizing future offerings on this reservation. A copy of the order directing the advertising of these lands for lease is in- closed. Tou will observe that the small producer is given a chance by offering tracts of from 10 to 160 acres in area. Mr. Plumb's letter is based on an erroneous promise. He says, " Congress, by law, gave these Indians absolute and exclusive right to make leases for oil and gas upon their lands." A reference to section 3 of the act of June 28, 1906, supra, will convince you, without further comment on my part, that leases to be effective require the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, and that the Osage lands can not be leased without his consent. The specific reasons for his request set forth by Mr. Plumb will now be con- sidered in order : "1. Because the said leases made by the Osage Indians are wholly legal, lawful, and entirely in the interest of the Osage Tribe, and their approval by the Interior Department is urgently desired by a very large majority of the members of the tribe." The decision of the department of June 14, 1912, hereinbefore referred to, is conclusive, and for reasons therein shown the leases were definitely disapproved, are not pending before this department, and are entirely disposed of. " 2. Because in the case now pending before the Supreme Court these Indians seek to protect their rights, and a bill is before Congress to validate these leases in accordance with the wishes and interests of the Osage Tribe." The title of the case referred to as pending before the Supreme Court is not pending. It is presumed that he refers to the case of Brown v. Fisher, decided by the Court of Appeals of the District of Columbia on June 2, 1913, and in which a writ of error has since been denied. I am unable to see how the present status of this case could affect the matter. The bill referred to as pending before Congress is presumably H. R. 5470, introduced May 20, 1913. A similar bill was introduced last Congress (H. R. 27726) and hearings were held before a subcommittee of the Committee on Indian Affairs, which bill was never reported and died in the hands of the committee. , _ . . , , " 3 Because Senate resolution No. 485, Sixty-second Congress, considered and agreed to February 28, 1913, directed the Secretary of the Interior to transmit 1432 OSAGE RESERVATION. to the Senate the correspondence and protests relating to leasing Osage gas and oil lands before concluding any more leases. "4. Because (he then Secretary of tho Interior, disregarding this resolution, leased lands to the Gypsy Oil Co., a subsidiary of the Standard, before he went out of office, which lands were under lease by the Indians to the Uncle Sam Oil Co." The resolution referred to reads : " Resolved, That the Secretary of the Interior be directed to transmit to the Senate the correspondence and protests relating to the proposed leasing of oil and gas lauds of the Osage Nation, together with the proposed rules and regu- lations, before concluding the disposition of such lands by lease." The records of the department show that the papers requested on February 28, 1913, were transmitted to the Senate on March 2, 1913, and returned on a resolution of the Senate dated April 15, 1913. It is not true that the Secretary executed a lease of the lands referred to to the Gypsy Oil Co., as stated by Mr. Plumb; on the contrary, the lenses executed by the Osage Council to the Gypsy Oil Co. were disapproved and the bids revoked by the Secretary of the Interior. " 7. And finally, because the present Secretary of the Interior on May 17, 1913, promised me that the Uncle Sam Oil Co. should have a full and fair hearing of its leases before anything more was done in regard to leasing Osage oil lands, which promise is not kept ; and because the private secretary of Secre- tary Lane promised in April, 1913, that the chief counsel for the Uncle Sam Oil Co. should be notified in a " week or 10 days " of a time when he might have a hearing with Secretary Lane upon the matter of the Uncle Sam Oil Co. and Wesley M. Dial leases. The general council journeyed from Kansas City to Washington in May, not having heard anything, and remained here some time without any chance for a hearing, but finding in meantime the Oil Trust could have a two-day hearing before Mr. Lane over renewal of the Oil Trust- Foster lease two years hence." The records of the office show no such promise, and you may be sure that no such promise was made. In this connection your attention is invited to the fact that Secretary Lane expressly approved my action in offering the 12,000 acres in question for lease. If there is any further information that we can give you, we will be glad to do so. Mr. Plumb's letter is returned in accordance with your request. Very truly, yours, Cato Sells, Commissioner. Washington, D. O, September S, 1913. Hon. J. T. Robinson, Senator. My Dear Sir: I see by the public prints that Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, is advertising for bids for leases for gas and oil rights upon certain lands of the Osage Indians for Osage County, Okla. As these lands are the property of the Osage Indians and not in any sense a public domain; and as Congress by law gave these Indians absolute and exclu- sive right to make leases for oil and gas upon their lands ; and as the lawfully constituted chief and Tribal Council of the Osage Tribe after months of discus- sion by the tribal council, and by a specially appointed gas and oil committee composed of members of the tribe, did perfect a lease of these lands and executed it. whereby the Uncle Sam Oil Co. and Wesley M. Dial for valuable consideration obtained leases of these lands from said Osage Tribal Council, I wish to protest to you and to your honorable joint committee of Congress appointed by Congress to invetigate Osage Indian affairs against the act of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, as of great injustice and wrong to the Uncle Sain Oil Co. and Wesley M. Dial, and solely in the interest of the Oil Trust, entailing possibly costly litigation upon the Uncle Sam Oil Co. Because the said leases made by the Osage Indians are wholly legal, lawful, and entirely in the interest of the Osage Tribe, and their approval by the Interior Department is urgently desired by a very large majority of the mem- bers of the tribe. Because the efforts of the former Secretary of the Interior Fisher, former Assistant Secretary of the Interior Adams, and Acting Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs Abbott to prevent Government approval of the Uncle Sam OSAGE BESERVATION. 1433 Oil Co. and the Wesley M, Dial lenses was the result of a conspiracy of said Government officials with the Oil Trust. Because attempts to bulldoze, bribe, browbeat, threaten with arrest, and withhold from members of the tribe their quarterly allowance of money, by Government officials was lawless, and monstrous perversion of power exercised to prevent the Osage Indians from making leases of their lands which the act of Congress authorized them to do. Because in a case now pending before the Supreme Court these Indians seek to protect their rights, and a bill is before Congress to validate these leases in accordanc with the wishes and interests of the Osage Tribe. Because Senate resolution No. 485, Sixty-second Congress, considered and agreed to February 28, 1013, directed the Secretary of the Interior to transmit to the Senate the correspondence and protests relating to leasing Osage gas and oil lands before concluding any more leases. Because the then Secretary of the Interior disregarding this resolution leased lands to the Gypsy Oil Co., a subsidiary of the Standard, before he went out of office, which lands were under lease by the Indians to the Uncle Sam Oil Co, And finally, because the present Secretary of the Interior on May 17, 1913, promised me that the Uncle Sam Oil Co. should have a full and fair hearing on its leases before anything more was done in regard to leasing Osage oil lands, which promise is not kept; and because the private secretary of Secretary Lane promised in April, 1013, that the chief counsel for the Uncle Sam Oil Co, should be notified in " a week or 10 days " of a time when he might have a hearing with Secretary Lane upon the matter of the Uncle Sam Oil Co. and Wesley M. Dial leases. The general council journeyed from Kansas City to Washington in May, not having heard anything, and remained here some time without any chance for a hearing, but finding in meantime the Oil Trust could have a two-day hearing before Mr. Lane over renewal of the Oil Trust-Foster- lease two years hence. Under these circumstances and for other reasons which will appear at the hearing before your committee, I on the part of the Uncle Sam Oil Co., and as one of the 12,000 stockholders, and as their Washington representative, protest against the course of the Interior Department and the proposed action of the Indian Commissioner. Very truly, yours, W. C. Plcjmb. Department of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, August 26, 191$. The Secretary of the Interior. Sir: The question of leasing additional lands on the Osage Reservation for- oil and gas mining purposes has been under consideration in the department and the office for the past three or four months, but action thereon has been withheld pending the prescribing of proposed amendments to the regulations of July 3, 1912, as amended January 9, 1913. Several conferences on the matter were had with representatives of the Bureau of Mines, but no definite conclu- sion has been reached. ^ r Recent developments in sec. 31, T. 22 N„ R. 8 E., and sec. 1, T. 21 N., R. 7 L,, have resulted in the bringing in of several wells of good capacity. It is believed that if some of these lands were now offered for lease large bonuses would be rGC6ivGd On July 15 1913, the superintendent of the Osage Agency submitted a revised statement of 'lands which he thought should be offered, but upon careful con- sideration of the entire matter I have concluded that we should not offer the entire acreage suggested by him at this time, and also that the lands should not be leased in subdivision of the size indicated in his revised list and the map which accompanied it. I belie-e that the lands quite close to recent development should be offered in tracts of 40 acres or less, so as to give the small producer an opportunity to compete in the bidding. I have accordingly prepared a map and list of the , j i j„ !„ rr 91 m T?s 7 and 8 E., and in sec. 25, 26, 27, 66, 34, 35 anise of T 22 N R f E and sec. 27 to 34, inclusive, T. 22 N., R. 8 E., s,,tXided into "small tracts of from about 10 to 160 acres each. The land* wWcn are describe,] Tin the list prepared by the office include 11,809.53 acres. 1434 OSAGE RESERVATION. It is believed that the question of leasing the other lands may well be held open until the return of the Director of the Bureau of Mines, who desires to consider some phases of the matter and to offer some suggestions as to pro- posed amendments to regulations. I therefore respectfully recommend that authority be granted for the superin- tendent of the Osage Indian School to place advertisements to run for four weeks iu the following-named papers, the advertisement to be inserted every other day in the daily and every issue in the weekly and semiweekly papers, viz : Osage Journal, Pawhuska, Okla. rawbuska Capital, Pawhuska, Okla. Times-Democrat, Muskogee, Okla Muskogee Phoenix, Muskogee, Okla. Oil and Gas Journal, Tulsa, Okla. Tulsa Democrat, Tulsa, Okla. Tulsa World, Tulsa, Okla. Oil Citv Derrick, Oil City, Pa. It is also recommended that the superintendent be authorized to have printed a form of call for bids to be posted at such places as he may deem advisable and to be furnished to Inquirers. Respectfully, Cato Sells, Commissioner. Approved. A. A. Jones, First Assistant Secretary. Department of the Interior, Washington, June H, 1912. Mr. A. H. Brown, Principal Chief Osage Nation, Pawhuska, Okla. Sir : The four proposed leases in favor of the Uncle Sam Oil Co., Wesley M. Dial, Henry J. O'Connell, and John L. Bird, covering the entire unleased por- tion of the Osage mineral lands, submitted to the department by you, in accord- ance with resolution No. 9 of the Osage Tribal Council, are returned herewith disapproved. At a hearing before me on February 20, 1912, at which you and a representa- tive delegation of the Osage Nation were present, four similar proposed leases in favor of the same parties were returned to you, after a full discussion ; and the two main reasons given you at that time for the rejection of the leases were: First, lack of opportunity for competitive bidding; and second, the inclusion of the so-called " written-consent " clause in the proposed leases. While the amended leases as resubmitted by you differ in some particulars from those first submitted, they do not in any way meet the two general objec- tions upon which the first were returned. I can not believe that the Osage National Council desires to dispose of the tribe's immense mineral wealth on any other than the best possible terms. How can you, or how can the depart- ment, charged as guardian of the Osage Nation, with the duty of making the regulations for the disposition of this wealth, know that the best possible terms are being offered when only one bidder is heard? How can you or this depart- ment reasonably expect to be able to ascertain the best possible terms that may be secured without first throwing wide open the gates to all bidders interested in the purchase of oil and gas, under certain definite and specific terms made known to all by first publishing widely the regulations which are to govern the leasiug? How could your council or how could this department escape the charge of favoritism or neglect of duty should you or it fail first to make public the terms upon which the leasing would be made, and make it known that there is to be an open field and no favors, and that the highest and best bidder is to receive the award? I repeat, therefore, that no lease, whatever its provi- sions may be, will be approved by this department until after regulations are promulgated and an opportunity given for competitive bidding. With equal emphasis I repeat the decision which was announced by me at the hearing of February 20, that I can not approve any leases containing the writ- ten-consent clause. The iaw makes the Osage Nation the owner of the mineral wealth in Osage County. To make that wealth available to the Osage Nation, the right of ingress and egress to any part of the surface of this land is essen- tial. Any lease provision or legulation which denies this right violates a prop- OSAGE RESERVATION. 1435 erty right vested by law in the Osage Nation. The right of consent as a condi- tion to entry carries with it the power to prohibit entry, and is, therefore, a contravention of a property right vested by law in the Osage Nation, and one -which the Osage National Council can not nullify, and the nullification of which the law gives this department no right to approve. But even if the written-consent clause were not a violation of the law, it should be disapproved as hostile to the individual as well as the tribal interests of the members of the Osage Tribe. The difficulty and the uncertainty in secur- ing the consent of allottees to enter upon their lands for prospecting* and drill- ing, and the temptation to allottees in possession of lands desirable to bidders to secure the highest possible price, would inject a large element of speculation in connection with every application for a lease, which would be discounted by the bidder in a reduction of the price offered the nation as a whole for the oil, and in favor of the individual to whom he would have to pay the speculative price for the right to enter. In the nature of things, the comparatively small number of individuals fortunate enough to hold the lands desirable for pros- pecting and drilling would be placed in a position to hold up the lessees as a consideration for consent far in excess of the actual damages to the surface, while the larger number of individuals upon whose allotments no operations were conducted would be in position to receive nothing as a consideration for their consent, and would sacrifice a percentage of their share of the tribal product to which they were justly entitled, to enrich the few individuals hold- ing a club in the form of written consent. In actual operation under the writ- " ten-consent clause, therefore, the leasing of Osage lands would result in gross discrimination against the many and in favor of the few, and would be detri- mental to the interests of the tribe as a whole. The allottees and other own- ers of the surface in Osage County are entitled to full and just compensation for actual damages, direct or indirect, suffered as a result of any lease made by and on behalf of the Osage Nation ; no more and no less. Anything more would be a trespass upon tribal rights, anything less a trespass upon individual rights secured by law. It is the duty of the Osage National Council, in connec- tion with the leasing of tribal mineral property, to execute no lease that does not fully guarantee such full and just compensation to the individual surface owner, and it would misrepresent and wrong the Osage Tribe if it executed a lease enabling such surface owner to secure more than full and just compensa- tion for damages. I have elaborated these general arguments against the plan of leasing, ap- proved by your council, with the hope that you and the members of your council may be convinced that my action is clearly in the interest of the Osage Nation and that, after full and conscientious consideration of the reasons which I have given, it may be possible for you and the department to come together upon a plan of leasing, as we are already together on the question of the desirability of making some kind of leases. While I have pointed out on two general grounds objections to the approval of the four leases submitted, there are other strong objections to the provisions of these leases, which would make them un- desirable even if the general objections, which I have already pointed out, did not exist and which, I am sure, you will see upon a careful consideration of the leases submitted. 1 will take the time here to point out briefly a few of the more important of these objections : 1. The Interstate Commerce Commission has held that the Uncle Sam Oil Co. is a common carrier, and it has been ordered to file with it by September 1 its schedule of rates and charges. This department has decided to approve no leases in the midcontinent oil field with pipe-line companies, which are. common carriers. This decision, of itself, would eliminate from consideration the application of the Uncle Sam Oil Co. 2 TheUncle Sam Oil Co. offers a bonus of 1 per acre. The other three applicants offer no bonus. A glance at the map submited with these bids will show that if these lands were offered in open competition, the average oil man would give no more for the territory covered by the application of the Uncle Sam Oil Co. than the lands covered by the other three applications. If 200000 acres of Osage territory is worth a bonus of $1 per acre why should not the council at least, try to secure an equal bonus for the remaining 600 000 acres' In other words, even if the application of the Uncle Sam Oil Co should be approved, would not the Osage Council and the department be properly subject to criticism for not making some attempt to secure a similar bonus on the remaining lands? 1436 05 AGE RESERVATION. 3. The wriuen-eousent clause in the leases submitted would apply only to cases where the surface was owned by allottees or his or her heirs and to land sold by order of the court in distribution of an estate. The protection of the written-consont clause is denied to lauds purchased from allottees. This omission would work to the detriment of every single member of the Osage Tribe who might sell his land. It would have the effect of depreciating the market value of lands in Osage County and thus indirectly reduce the value of the wealth of the Osage Nation. It Would have the same effect as if there were failure in the regulations to provide for full and just compensation for surface damages to every surface owner. 4. The four leases submitted, while giving the proposed lessee the right of way over every foot of land in Osage County, fail to make any provision what- ever for damages, except in case of damages growing out of prospecting and drilling, and the provision made for damages in such cases would be ineffective, for the leases have absolutely no provision of any method for determining such damages and provide no penalty for failure on the part of the lessee to pay such damages. 5. These lenses provide for a royalty of one-eighth, or 12J per cent. The subleases, under the Foster lease, are now earning a royalty of one-sixth, or 16$ per cent. I can see no reason why the unl eased portion of Osage County should not also earn a royalty of one-sixth, or 16 § per cent. The loss to the Osage Nation by accepting a smaller royalty offered in event of the discovery of oil in considerable quantities, you can see, would run up into many thousands of dollars of loss to the Osage Nation. The department is now preparing regulations, which will be ready for pro- mulgation in a short time, which it is believed cover all the objections dis- cussed herein and which, it is also believed, will safeguard the Osage Nation against any injustice which it feels that it may be suffering under the present Foster leases. Respectfully. Samuel Adams, First Assistant Secretary. [Copy for information of .] January 3, 1913. In section 9 of the act of Congress approved June 28, 1906, providing for the creation of the Omaha Tribal Council, it is provided that " the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to remove from the council any member or mem- bers thereof for good cause, to be by him determined." By virtue of the authority thus vested in me I have determined that good cause exists for the removal of each and every member of said council, and Harry Kohpay, Me-ke-wah-ti-an-kah, A. H. Brown, Peh-tsa-moie, E-stah-o-gre- she, W. S. Mathews, and Oscar A. Ririe are each hereby removed from member- ship in the Osage Tribal Council. It is not necessary that I should assign the reasons for this action; but in order that these reasons may be known by all of the members of the Osage Tribe and by all others interested, I state as the reason for my action that the Osage Tribal Council as constituted prior to this order has shown by the things it has done and the things it has failed to do that it has been controlled by influences hostile to the best interests of the tribe, and the said council and each member thereof has proven recreant to the duty owed to the tribe by the said council and its members. It has permitted outsiders (some of whom have financial interests in the matters involved) to influence its policies and its actions contrary to the interests of the tribe and in matters of the greatest importance to the tribe. It has refused to follow the express wishes of the majority of the adult male members of the tribe that the bids made on the 11th day of November, 1912, for leases on the oil and gas deposits belonging to the tribe be accepted and that leases be executed thereon. It has persisted in attempting to have these deposits leased on terms and in a manner definitely disapproved by the Secretary of the Interior, whose action in the matter has been sustained by the President of the United States after a hearing given to parties interested in securing such leases. It has failed to take any step to fill the vacancy in the office of principal chief caused by the removal of Bacon Kind, or the vacancy in the office of assistant chief caused by the removal of Henry Redeagle, or the vacancy in the membership of the tribal council caused OSAGE RESERVATION. 1437 by the removal of Thomas West. It has even failed to provide any method of filling vacancies in the tribal council, and this failure compels me to take the necessary steps for this purpose. Walter L. Fisher, Secretary. February 17, 1914. My Dear Senator : In further response to your communication dated Decem- ber 17, 1913, requesting information regarding the leasing of Osage lands for oil and gas mining purposes, I take pleasure in submitting the following report, in which the items are numbered in accordance with the paragraphs of your letter : 1. The Osage lands which have been leased for oil and gas mining purposes should be grouped in two classes — those covered by the so-called Foster lease and those covered by leases approved under regulations promulgated by the department on July 3, 1912. On March 16, 1896, James Bigheart, principal chief of the Osage Tribe, pur- suant to the authority of the council, executed a lease for the production of petroleum and natural gas to Edwin B. Foster, covering the entire Osage Reser- vation of about 1,500,000 acres. This lease, a copy of which accompanies this report, was made under section 3 of the act of February 28, 1891 (26 Stat. L., 794), as amended by the act of August 15, 1S94 (2S Stat. L., 305). The lease was drawn for a term of 10 years, and provided for royalties of one-tenth per cent of all crude petroleum produced, based on the market value of the product at the place of production, and $50 per annum for each gas well utilized. On April 8, 1896, the department gave its approval to the transaction. On May S, 1896, Edwin B. Foster assigned all his interest in the lease to the Phoenix Oil Co. On December 13, 1899, the Phoenix Oil Co. transferred to Samuel C. Sheffield a part of lease covering 60 square miles. On June 13, 1900, Samuel C. Sheffield assigned all his interest to the Osago Oil Co. On January 3, 1902, the Phoenix Oil Co. assigned to the Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co. the remainder of its interest in the lease. On April 23, 1902, the Osage Oil Co. assigned all its interest in the lease to the Indian Terri- tory Illuminating Oil Co. Under these various assignments, which all received the approval of the department on January 7, 1903, the entire interest in the lease passed into the hands of the Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co., which company subsequently made a number of subleases covering specified areas. In the act of March 3, 1905 (33 Stat, 1061), it was provided that— " Said lease and all subleases thereof duly executed on or before December thirty-first, nineteen hundred and four, or executed after that date based upon contracts made prior thereto, and which have been or shall be approved by the Secretary of the Interior, to the extent of six hundred and eighty thousand acres in the aggregate, are hereby extended for a period of ten years from the sixteenth day of March, nineteen hundred and six, with all the conditions of said original lease except that from and after the sixteenth day of March, nineteen hundred and six, the royalty to be paid on gas shall be $100 per annum on each gas well, instead of $50 as now provided in said lease, and except that the President of the United States shall determine the amount of royalty to be paid for oil." The President fixed the royalty of oil at one-eighth, or 12J per cent, of the production. The leasehold interest in the 680.000 acres, on which the lease was renewed by the act cited, has by various subleases and assignments passed into the hands of a large number of persons, firms, and corporations as shown by the accompanying table, " List A." As a rule the subleases provide that the Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co. shall be paid by the sublessee 16f per cent of all oil produced, and that company also has the privilege of taking over all gas wells. All interests of the Foster lease as extended will terminate on March 16, 1916, and there is now under consideration in the office an applica- tion for renewal. Section 3 of the act of Congress approved June 28, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 539, 543) which act provided for the division of the lands and funds of the Osage Tribe, reserved to the tribe for the period of 25 years from April 8, 1906, the oil, gas, coal, and other minerals covered by the lands, and further provided " Leases for all oil, gas, and other minerals, covered by selections and division of land herein provided for, may be made by the Osage Tribe of Indians 35601— pt 12—14 4 1438 OSAGE RESERVATION. ihrough its tribal council, and with the approval of the Secretary of the Inte- rior, and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe: Provided, That the royalties to be paid to the Osage Tribe under any mineral lease so made shall be determined by the President of the United States." On July 3, 1012, the department prescribed regulations to govern the leasing of that part of the reservation not covered by the Foster lease as extended. A copy of the regulations and copies of amendments thereto of January 9 and August 25, 1913, are inclosed. There is also inclosed " List B " of leases and assignments which have been approved under the regulations last referred to. The lease form (Form B) used under the regulations of July 3, 1912, is printed in the back of the pam- phlet. Under these regulations all leases are drawn for a term of 10 years from date of approval by the department, and as long thereafter as oil and gas is found in paving quantities, with the provision, however, that the lease shall not extend beyond April 8, 1931. The royalty paid on both oil and gas is 16 J per cent of the market value at the well, which royalty was fixed by the Presi- dent, in accordance with the act of June 28, 1906, supra. The regulations and tease form also contain provisions for the ascertainment and settlement of damages to the owners of the surface. The regulations of July 3, 1912, pro- vide that the land shall be offered for lease under sealed bids. Competition is Dased on the amount of bonus offered for any particular subdivision. List B shows the bonuses paid for the lands which have so far been leased. The lists referred to above were prepared as of January 1, 1914. 2. From " List B" it will be observed that the Prairie Oil & Gas Co. is inter- ested in 1S,K;T.2 acres of Osage oil and gas lands, exclusive of the area within the Foster lease as renewed by the act of March 3, 1905, supra. Of this acre- age the company holds under assignment one-half interest in 17,207 acres, and full interest by original lease in 960.2 acres. As will be seen from the answer under No. 1, the original Foster lease covered the entire Osage Reservation. 3. " List A" shows that the Prairie Oil & Gas Co. has leasehold interests in fends covered by the Foster lease as extended in 32,S00 acres. It is interested with other sublessees in 5,280 acres of the area named, and holds a full interest in 27,520 acres except the gas interest retained by the Indian Territory Illumi- nating Oil Co. under the terms of the subleases and assignments. 4. Following is a statement of assignments of Osage oil and gas interests approved to the Prairie Oil & Gas Co. in the 18 months preceding January 1, 1914: Assignor. Date assignment. Acreage involved. Date approval assignment. UNDER FOSTER LEASE. John W. Dyson American Oil & Gas Co . $. C. Crandall A. T. Fancher froquois Oil & Gas Co . . National Oil & Gas Co. Northwestern Oil Co . . . Seneca Oil Co Western Oil & Gas Co.. Feb. 10,1911 Oct. 22,1910 Oct. 10,1910 Nov. 2, 1910 Oct. 22,1910 Mar. Oct. Dec. Oct. .do. 10, 1913 22, 1910 20, 1910 24,1910 A. T. Fancher Total interest in 25,300 acres, undi- vided seven-twelfths interest in 5,280 acres Nov. 2,1910 EXCLUSIVE OF FOSTER LEASE. Continental Oil & Refining Co Keystone Oil & Gas Co John W. Gilliland '.. Undivided one-half interest in . May 24,1913 May 26,1913 May 31,1913 320 acres 4,fi40 acres 1,280 acres 4,080 acres Three-fourths interest in 3,360 acres. 11,520 acres 640 acres 2,240 acres 640 acres , Undivided one-half interest in 960 acres. do 30,640 acres. One-half interest in 11,505 acres.. One-half interest in 5,062 acres... One half interest in 640 acres 17,207 acres. Dec. 27,1912 Dec. 30,1912 Dec. 27,1912 Dec. 30,1912 Do. Jan. 2, 1913 Apr. 5, 1913 Jan. 2, 1913 Do. Do. Deo. 30,1912 June 10,1913 Do. Aug. 6, 1913 5. Having no official information regarding the mortgage held by the Stand- ard Oil Co. on the Barnsdall holdings, I requested the superintendent in charge ®f the Osage Agency to ascertain what he could do about the matter and submit a report. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1439 The superintendent's report of February 2, 1914 and the mner* wwi, accompanied it have already been forwarded to you 'in "LplLnce w Uh vour informal request of February 7. These papers show that T N Bamsdall has Trnfiif w h T v tei ' eStS hl ?, Sage oil and *»> lands to the Stand™ O Co «fi W&^q ■ \°T. S l 1S d that the amount of the mortgage at this time is ?6 886,3 1 3.63, and that the terms of the agreement are such as to mace rh* entire management and control of the Barnsdall Oil C Into the hands or a ™ 0UDg ' W - h °. is L acting for tlle Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey 6. The superintendent's report referred to above shows that the Carter Oil Co has ar i g t y ,r V nfl^ the Standa n rd 0U °°- of Nw Jerse y- The Carter O Co. has a lease of 160 acres on Osage lands as shown by "List B" The superintendent also called attention to the fact that while it is the V e neral consensus of opinion that the Prairie Oil & Gas Co. is subsidiary to theltand- h™ ti . « baS U0 dU ' 6Ct evidence nt hand t0 dlsclos e .i^st what the rela- tions between the companies are. There is no doubt that the two companies have some common stockholders wjhimui® w™ re ?Z\\° tte S a , rter 0il Co - the reeOTds of tWs office show that about 99 per cent of the capital stock of the company is owned by the Standard Oil w ?L n e Z™ e nf ey r The C:U ' ter ? U Co ' made nPPlieatlon to the department foi the approval of an assignment covering a lease of restricted lands in the Five Civilized Tribes, which application was disapproved by the department for the reason that some of the stockholders in the Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey were also stockholders in the Prairie Oil & Gas Co. of Kansas and the latter company had at that time the maximum acreage of restricted lands in the Five Civilized Tribes which under the regulations could be held under- lease by any one person, firm, or corporation. The president of the company made emphatic oral representations to the office that although the Standard Oil Co. controlled the Carter Oil Co. in the matter of stock ownership it did not in any manner interfere with or attempt to influence the policies and business dealings of the Carter Oil Co. ; the boards of directors of the two companies being composed of different sets of men. 7. The Foster lease provided that prospecting should be begun within six months after the approval of the instrument by the Secretary of the Interior. The lease did not set forth the extent of operations to be conducted. The leases approved under the regulations of July 3, 1912 (see Form B in pamphlet inclosed), require that the lessee shall commence to drill at least one well on every leased designated subdivision within 90 days and complete such well or wells within one year from the date of approval of the lease by the Secretary of the Interior, or pay as liquidated damages the sum of $2,00*0 for each and every test well not completed within the year. Under the regula- tions, a designated subdivision may be 5,120 acres or less. "List B" shows the number of designated subdivisions held bv each lessee under the regula- tions of July 3, 1912. 8. As shown by " List A," large areas of lands under the Foster lease are under one control, the largest being that controlled by the Barnsdall Oil Co. and allied interests of approximately 325,000 acres. There was nothing con- tained in the Foster lease, as originally made and as extended, to limit the acreage which might be held by any sublessee. In the regulations of July 3, 1912, the maximum acreage which may be held under lease by anyone person, firm, or corporation is fixed at 25,000 acres. The so-called Foster lease will expire on March 16, 1916, and in considering the applications for renewal of the various interests under that lease and the many questions involved, that of the acreage held by the various interests, and whether such acreage shall be limited, will be given careful thought. I may say, however, that the policy of the department is opposed to permitting any one person, firm, or corporation to control sufficient acreage to amount to a monopoly. This is clearly shown by the regulations governing leasing of restricted lands in the Five Civilized Tribes, which limits the amount which may be held by any person, firm, or corporation "to 4,800 acres, and in the regulations of July 3, 1912, governing the leasing of the Osage lands, which, as stated above, places the maximum at 25,000 acres. We keep a record of the acreage held by each lessee and will not approve any additional lease when the lessee has reached the maximum, and, in fact, we have gone so far as not to approve a lease to an individual if he was a member of a firm or a stockholder in a corporation which holds the maximum acreage, no matter how small his interest, and, on the other hand, we will not approve a lease to a firm or corporation of which any individual member holds the 1440 OSAGE RESERVATION. maximum acreage under lease. We can not, however, control stock transfers and combinations after the lessees have leased the limit of restricted lands. We can only refuse to approve any additional leases. I regret the delay in furnishing the information called for in your letter of December 17, but this has been due to the necessity of obtaining a report from the field. Very truly, yours, Cato Sells, Commissioner. Hon. Joe T. Kobtnson, Chairman Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, United States Senate. List A. — Sublessees and assignees of Osage lands under the so-called Foster lease, with dale of approval by Department of the Interior of instrument under which leasehold interest is held, and acreage involved. [The list is arranged alphabetically, and where more than one person, firm, or corpora- tion is involved in any particular acreage, the item is listed under the name of each person, firm, or corporation interested.] Sublessee or assignee. Date of approval. Aiken, F. M Curtis, W. L Boggs Drilling Co. Aiken, F. M Fancher, A. T Boggs Drilling Co. Alxneda Oil Co Amm , James Craig, G. L Penmar Oil Co Anchor Oil Co Ashland Oil Co Attee, Mary H Aurora Oil & Gas Co... National Oil & Gas Co . Ball, CM Markham, J. H., jr Ball & Markham Markham, John H Barney Oil Co Bamsdall, N. B BarnsdaU, T. N.. Bamsdall Oil Co. Do. BarnsdaU Oil Co. Barnsdall, T. N.. BarnsdaU Oil Co Brennan, J. H Frost, D. E BarnsdaU Oil Co Frost.D. E Barnsdall OUCo GiU.T.H Barnsdall Oil Co Greulich, L.J BarnsdaU Oil Co Imperial Osage Development Co!.".".".. Barnsdall Oil Co Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co.! Feb. 5, 1906, and July 31, 1911. (Mar. 9,1903.. IJuly 28, 1908.. Mar. 15, 1907, and Feb. 10, 1908.. Mar. 22, 1910 Feb. 25,1907 Apr. 29, 1907 ■Oct. 16, 1911, and Feb. 8, 1911. . ■Feb. 11,1911 Oct. 28, 1913, and May 4, 1908. . . Aug. 30, 1907 Dec. 18, 1905 June 30, 1904, and Aug. 3, 1907. Aug. 3, 1907 Mar. 30, 1907, and May 14, 1909... Aug. 3, 1907 Aug. 3, 1907, and May 14, 1909 May 5, 1908 Dec. 8, 1908 Dec. 29, 1908 May 14, 1909 June 30, 1904, and Aug. 3, 1907. Aug. 3, 1907 Mar. 30, 1907, and Jan. 25, 1910. (■Jan. 25, 1910, and June 1, 1910. . Jan. 25, 1910, and May 23, 1906. June 1, 1904, and Aug. 3, 1907. . (Dec. 18, 1905, and Aug. 3, 1907. . Jan. 25,1910.. Apr. 28, 1910. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1441 List A. — Sublessees and assignees of Osage lands under the so-called Foster lease, etc. — Continued. Sublessee or assignee. Date of approval. Acreage. Care Barnsdall Oil Co. Jouflriou, H. L Barnsdall Oil Co Jouflriou. H. L Barnsdall Oil Co Leahy, W. T Barnsdall Oil Co Miller, F. E Barnsdall Oil Co Moflett, J. S Care Barnsdall Oil Co . Morey, M. M Barnsdall Oil Co Neenah Oil Co JMar.30,1907 JAug. 3, 1907, and Mar. 30, 1907. . Aug. 3, 1907, and June 3, 1906. . . JAug. 3, 1907, and Mar. 3, 1907. . . JAug. 3, 1907, and Nov. 18, 1907. Mar. 8,1906 JMar. 30, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907. . 640 1,280 640 640 640 640 3,200 Barnsdall Oil Co Osage Development Co.. ....do Aug. 3, 1907. Barnsdall Oil Co Osage Oklahoma Co. Barnsdall Oil Co Sand Creek Oil Co... Barnsdall Oil Co Stilwell.M.F Barnsdall Oil Co WaUer,T.M Wagner,S.H Barnsdall Oil Co.... "Washington Oil Co. . Barnsdall Oil Co Wilson, W. M Grand total in which Barnsdall Oil Co. is interested. Bates, Roth-Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co Buzzard, C. A Baxter, A. B McGuire, J. E De Golier, C. F Bell.Jo.n A Breene, l 1 '. M System Oil Co Bell, John A.,jr Getty, Geo. F Breene, F. M System Oil Co BeU,E.S Forty-five Oil Co Belmont Oil Co Bloom, C. L Florer, J. N McBride, A. P Boggs Drilling Co Aiken, F. M Curtis, W. L Boggs Drilling Co Fancher. A. T Aiken, F. M Boston, F. T Boston-Osage Oil Co Texas Co Braden, G. T Moore, Christ Braden, G. T Steel, John A Breene, F. M - Bell, John A System Oil Co Breene, F. M Bell, John A., jr Getty, George F System Oil Co Breene, F. M Shea, J. J Breene, F. M Shea, J. J JApr. 5, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907... JAug. 3, 1907, and Mar. 15, 1907. JAug. 3, 1907, and Dec. 18, 1905.. Apr. 3, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907 ... . JAug. 3, 1907, and Dec. 18, 1905 - - . JAug. 3, 1907, and Mar. 30, 1907 . . . 4,720 640 5,360 118,284 2,560 1,600 640 3,520 640 336, 117 |nov. 6, 1907, and Oct. 7, 1911.. Nov.17,1908 Mar. 10, 1911 May 4, 1912, Mar. 31, 1911, and ' Feb. 17, 1912. Mar. 31, 1911, and Feb. 17, 1912 Moflett, J. S . . . Mar. 25, 1907.. Sept. 6, 1910.. Oct. 11, 1907. Feb. 5, 1906, and July 31, 1911. Feb. 2, 1907 June 26, 1907 Aug. 4, 1904, and June 14, 1913 Mar. 15, 1907 iDec. 13, 1910, and Sept. 4, 1913 Mar. 10, 1911; May 4, 1912; Mar. 31, 1911; Feb. 17, 1912. Mar. 31, 1911, and Feb. 17, 1912 Way 18,1911 JNov. 18, 1907, and May 18, 1911. 640 2,200 140 1,020 9,000 640 780 10, 160 2,591 717 i,il 640 1442 OSAGE RESERVATION. List A.- -Snblcssces and assignees of Osage lands under the so-called, Foster lease, etc. — Continued. Sublessee or assignee. Date of approval. Acreage. Brennan .John H. Foster, H. V Brennan, J. H Frost, D. E Barnsdall Oil Co Buckeye-Osage Oil Co Bushnell, T. H., receiver for Dennison, Prior & Co. Buzzard, C. A Roth- Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co. Buzzard, C. A Roth- Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co Bates Byers, J. C Ratner, S Sutten.S. W Hetherington, J. F Morphis, J. C Carter, E. B Carter, W.N Overlees, F . M Mason, D. B Church, Geo. W Caton, L Carter, W.N Overlees, F. M Mason, D. B Church, Geo. W Caton, L Carter, E. B Carter Bros. Oil Co Caton, L Carter, E. B Carter, W. N Overlees, F. M Mason, B. B Church, Geo. W Chief Bfeheart Oil Co Mason, B. B Overlees, F. M Church, George W Caton, L Carter, E. B Carter, W. N Overlees, F. M Mason, B. B Couley, C. A Walker, J. L .... Producers' Oil Co Craig, G. L Amm, James Penmar Oil Co Crane, H. O '. Crescent Oil Co Curl, J. J Curtis, W. L Aiken, F. M Boggs Brilling Co ... . Bavis, W. N... Foster, H. V Davis, W. N... Foster, H. V Sperata Oil Co De Golier, C. F '..'.'". Baxter, A. B... McGuire, J. E '". Dennison, Prior & Co., T H. Bushnel'l, receiver " Duffield, Lewis C Dutton, Edmund Dutton, Phillip H '.'.'.'.'.'. Golden, Owen. . Dutton, Phillip B. ...... ...".'. Golden, Owen Dutton Edmund. Edith OilCo May 25, 1907, and Apr. 21, 1913. Apr.21, 1913 Mar. 30, 1907, and Jan. 25, 1910. Apr. 5, 1907.. Jan. 17,1912.. Nov. 6, 1907, Apr. 12, 1910, and Oct. 7, 1911. Nov. 6, 1907, and Oct. 7, 1911 Nov. 6, 1907, and Oct. 7, 1911. Mar. 15, 1907. June 26, 1907, and Sept. 5, 1912. ..do. June 20, 1903. Jan. 10, 1908, and Sept. 16, 1913. June 26, 1907, and Sept. 5,1912. June 26, 1907, and Sept. 5, 1912. Feb. 5, 1906, and July 31, 1911... }May 10, 1907, and Jan. 15, 1913. . May 10, 1907, and Nov. 29, 1911. Nov. 17, 1908. Jan. 17, 1912.. Dec. 5, 1913.. Apr. 25, 1913. .do., .do.. Mar. 15, 1907, 1907 907 and Feb. 10, 1908 Sept. 17 Feb. 2, June 26, 1907 640 4,160 ucaujl ruiSERVATION. 1443 Ll8T A.- -Sublessees and assignees of Osage lands under the lease, etc. — Continued. -called Foster Sublessee or assignee. Elmer Oil Co Prairie Oil & Gas Co. Emery, John C Eureka-Osage Oil Co. Fancher. A. T Aiken, F. M Boggs Drilling Co Federal Oil & Gas Co. Fifty-Nine Osage Oil Co. Finance Oil Co Finance Oil Co Franchott, N. V. V. Finance Oil Co Livingstone Oil Co.. Finance Oil Co Wilson, W. M Florer, J.N McBride, A. P Bloom, C. L Forty-five Oil Co.... BeU,E.S , Foster, H. V. Foster, H. V Brennan, John H . Foster, H. V Davis, W. N Foster, H. V Davis, W. N Sperata Oil Co ■ Foster, H. V Gypsy Oil Co Foster, H. V Leech, C. F Foster, H. V Northwestern Oil Co - Foster, H. V Eobb, A. D Franchott, N.V.V Do Finance Oil Co Frost, D.E Barnsdall Oil Co Frost, D . E Barnsdall Oil Co Brennan, J. H Frost, D.E McGrew, A. B German American Oil & Gas Co Getty, George F Breene, F. M Bell, John A., jr System Oil Co -• - - - - ■ Gilbert, P. A., care of D. W. Franchott. . Gilkey, S. M - - • - - - - Care of Gilkey, S. M., Pochequette Oil Co.. Gill,-T.H Barnsdall Oil Co Gillespie, F. A Kennedy, S.G Golden, Owen Dutton, Edmund Dutton. Philip H Great Western Oil Co /Mar. 17, 1906. \Nov. 15, 1909. Date of approval. Aug. 30, 1907, and Dec. 30, 1912.. June 7, 1912 Mar.30, 1907 Feb. 2, 1907 Jan. 23,1905.. Jan. 25, 1911.. Jan. 18, 1912.. July JDec. JMar. Oct. }Apr. July Jan. Uan. 1912, and May 22, 1906. 1908, and Apr. 2,1912.. 1907, and Jan. 31, 1911. 1907. 1907. 1907. 1911.. 1912.. May Apr. 1907, and Apr. 21, 1913. 1913 JMay 10, 1907, and Jan. 15, 1913.. May 10, 1907, and Nov. 29, 1911.. }jan. 14, 1911, and Feb. 14, 1911. Apr.27,1907 Aug. 8,1912 JMay 10,1911 jjune 8, 1912, and Oct. 7, 1911... May 22,1906 JMay 22, 1906, and July 16, 1912. . jjune l,1910,and Jan. 25, 1910.... ■Mar. 30, 1907, and Jan. 25, 1910. June 1, 1910, and Dec. 19, 1912 . Jan. 29, 1913 Mar. 31, 1911, and Feb. 17, 1912. May 24,1906 Mar.18,1907 Apr.27,1907 JMay 23, 1907, and Jan. 25, 1910. jjune 12,1913 •Apr. 25, 1913.. June 26, 1907.. 1444 OSAGE EESEKVATION. L 1ST a. Sublessees and assignees of Osage lands under the so-called Foster lease, etc. — Continued. Sublessee or assignee. Green Bay Oil Co.-. Do New London Oil Co . Greulich, L.J Do Barnsdall Oil Co Gunsburg, David .. . Swain, Guy Gypsy Oil Co. Do Foster, H. V Hetherington, J. F Morphis, J. C Byers, J. C Ratner, S Sutton, S. W Hodag Oil Co Hidings, T. C Shryock, G. A Roberts, G. L Imperial Osage Development Co . Do Bamsdall Oil Co Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co. Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co., by reason of cancellation of sublease of San Francisco- Osage Oil Co. Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co. Barnsdall Oil Co Indian Territorv Illuminating Oil Co Schlaet, Black & Rider Ingalls, Ralph Interstate Oil Co Do Mason, D. B O verlees , F. M Jay Bee Oil Co Jennings, E. H. & Bros Johnston, O. S Jones, J. B Do National Oil & Gas Co Jouflriou, H. L., care of Barnsdall Oil Co. Joufrriou, H. L Barnsdall Oil Co Keesage Oil Co Kennedy, S. G Gillespie, F. A Kingbell Oil Co Knisely Oil Co Lahona Oil & Gas Co Lamberton, Robert Larkin, F Wichita Drilling & Developing Co Leahy W. T Barnsdall Oil Co Leech, C. F Foster, H. V Livingston Oil Co Finance Oil Co Date of approval. Apr. 29, 1909 •July 25, 1907, and Apr. 29, 1909. . June 1, 1904 June 1, 1904, and Aug. 3, 1907. . . •Dec. 13, 1913, and Aug. 24, 1912. (Sept. 19, 1910. ■Uan. 23, 1911.. [Feb. 15, 1911.. ■Jan. 14, 1911, and Feb. 4, 1911. ■Mar. 15, 1907. do Sept. 13, 1911 Dec. 18, 1905 JDec. 18, 1905, and Aug. 3, 1907. Mar.3.1905 Feb. 12,1908 Feb. 12. 1908, and Apr. 2, 1912. July 16,1908 Aug. 6, 1908 Julvl4,1910 Feb. 23,1911 Jan. 17. 1912 June 5. 1912 (.Aug. 19,1912 June 25, 1912. Jan. 25, 1910., Apr. 28,1910. |.Tune23,1909.. Jan. 15,1906.. April 15, 1913. ....do.: |Oct. 29,1913 Apr.23,1913 Mar. 15,1907 June 20. 1907 Mar. 18,1907 JMar. 13. 1907, and Feb. 8, 1911. Mar.30, 1907 JMar. 30, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907. Dec. 18, 1905 ljune 12, 1913 Mar.23,1912 Aug. 30, 1907 Mar. 18, 1907 Mar. 2, 1911 Feb. 29, 1912 ljune 3, 1906, and Aug. 3, 1907. . [•Aug. 8, 1912, and Apr. 27, 1907. Dec. 29, 1908, and Apr. 2, 1912. . OSAGE KESERVATION. 1445 List A. — Sublessees and assignees of Osage lands under the so-called Foster lease, etc. — Continued. Sublessee "or assignee. Date of approval. Mallory Bros. & Co . Manhattan Oil Co. . . Markbam, John H., jr. Do Ball CM Markham, John H., jr.. Markham & Ball Do Markham, John H Mason, D. B Church, George W Caton, L Carter, E. B Carter, W. N O verlees, F. M Mason, D. B O verlees, F. M Chief Bigheart Oil Co. Mason, D. B O verlees, F. M ' Interstate Oil Co Matson Oil Co.. McBride, A. P Do Florer,J.N Bloom, C. L McGrew, A. B Frost, D. E McGuire, J. E Baxter, A. B De Golier, C. F MoMahon, John C McMan Oil Co Noble, Charles F Mechanics' Savings Bank. Steyner Oil Co Mehhar Producing Co Miller, F. E Barnsdall Oil Co Minnehoma Oil Co. Moffett, J. S Moffett, J. S Barnsdall Oil Co. Moffett, J. S Breene, F. M Shea, J. J Moore, Clint Braden, G. T Moore, Clint... Silurian Oil Co. Morey, M. M., care of Barnsdall Oil Co. Morphis, J. C Byers, J. C Ratner, S Sutton, S.W Hetherington, J. L National Oil & Gas Co Aurora Oil & Gas Co National Oil & Gas Co Jones, J. B Jan. 27, 1905 . . (Nov. 10, 1909. . ^Sept. 26, 1910.. [Apr. 29, 1911 . . Mar. 15, 1907 JFeb. 11,1911 J0ct. 28, 1913, and May 4, 1908. " May 4, 1908, and Oct. 28, 1913'. June 26, 1907, and Sept. 5, 1912. Sept. 16, 1913, and Jan. 10, 1908.. Oct. 29, 1913, and Apr. 15, 1913. . IJan. 21, 1905 I Jan. 25,1906 '. lMar. 15, 1007 iMar. 15, 1907, and Oct. 9, 1909. Jan. 17, 1912.. Oct. 11,1907.. ■June 1, 1910, and Dec. 19, 1912. Nov. 17, 1908 Feb. 24, 1906 Apr.25,1913 Jan. 4, 1906, and Dec. 16, 1909. . Mar. 12, 1912 Mar. 30, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907. (Juno 3, 1904.. \Mar. 10, 1911 . Nov. 18, 1907 {■Nov. 18, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907. Inov. 18, 1907, and May 18, 1911. ■Mar. 15, 1907 Mar 15, 1907, Apr. 29, 1909, and May 1, 1909 Mar. 15, 1907, and Apr. 29, 1909 Mar. 8, 1906.. ■Mar. 15,1907. ■jWeb. 8, 1911, and Oct. 16, 1911 . ■lMar. 18, 1907, and Feb. 8, 1911. 1446 OSAGE EESEEVATION. List A.- -Siiblcssccs and assignees of Osage lands under the so-called Foster lease, cte. — Continued. Sublessee or assignee. Date of approval. Acreage. Neenah Oil Co Do Bornsdall Oil Co New London Oil Co . Do Green Bay Oil Co.... Nicaragua Oil Co . Noble, Charles F McMan Oil Co Northwestern Oil Co. . . . Foster, H.V Osage Development Co. Do Bamsdall Oil Co. Osage Fifty-eight Oil Co Osage-Oklahoma Co Bamsdall Oil Co Overlees, F. M Mason D. B Chief Bigheart Oil Co Overlees, F. M Mason, D. B. Church Geo. W Carter, E. B Carter, W. N !. Caton, L Overlees, F. M Mason, D. B Interstate Oil Co Page, Charles Panther Oil & Development Co. Pawhuska Oil & Gas Co.. Do. Roth- Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co Peet, Wm., trustee Penmar Oil Co. Do !!!!!!."!'.'! Amm, James Craig, G. L Penna-Osage Oil Co . Do Steel, John A Phillips, Frank Phillips, Waite.. Do Shea, J. J Pochequette Oil Co..'.!.*."." Poehequette Oil Co., care of S.*M." Gilkey' Prairie Oil & Gas Co. Do Elmer Oil Co., Mar. 30, 1907 Mar. 30, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907. Aug. 28, 1907 July 25, 1907, and Apr. 29, 1909. (Mar. 15, 1907. \Mar. 30, 1907. J-Apr. 25, 1913. May 10, 1911 . Mar. 30, 1907. Mar. 30, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907. Aug. 3, 1907 320 3,200 320 '"" 160 1,200 640 320 4,720 640 Mar. 18, 1907 !-Apr. 5, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907., ■Sept. 16, 1913 Jan. 10, 1908 June 26, 1907, and Sept. 5, 1912. Oct. 29, 1913.. Apr. 15,1913. Dec. 13, 1910.. Aug. 13, 1909. (Mar. 12, 1904. 'Jan. 17,1905.. [Dec. 18, 1905., JNov. 6, 1907, Nov. 6,1907, and Apr. 12,1911. Aug. 14, 1913. Mar, 15,1907. Mar. 15, 1907, and Feb. 10, 1908.. Mar. 30,1907 JMar. 30, 1907, and Aug. 20, 1913.. Jan. 25, 1910 1,200 118,284 585 3,083 240 1,600 1,280 320 3,200 (Mar. 2, 1911 . (Nov. 2, 1911. ■May 28, 1911.. Apr. 27, 1907. ....do Apr. 25, 1910 Dec. 27, 1912 !!!! Doc 30 1912 Dec. 3o" 1912," and Jan." 2! 1913 " Jan. 2, 1913 Apr.5,1913 |Aug. 30, 1907, and Dee. 30, 1912.. 640 1,109 3,040 3,200 160 320 2,560 120 550 670 320 320 1,200 1,600 8,720 960 14,400 fe 640 27,520 OSAGE KESEEVATION. 1447 List A. — Sublessees and assignees of Osage lands under the so-called Foster lease, etc. — Continued. Sublessee or assignee. Date of approval. Acreage. Prairie Oil & Gas Co. Shulthis, A. W Feb. 23, 1911 June 15, 1910, and Feb. 23, 1911. Total in which Prairie Oil & Gas Co. has interests Producers OilCo Couley, C. A , Walter, J. L Ratner, S Sutton, S. W Hetherington, J. F Morphis, 3. C Byers, J. C. Rhinelander Osage Oil Co. Robb, A.D Foster, H. V Roberts, G. L Hidings, T.C Shryock, G. A .• Ronne, J. K Spaulding, Charles Sivain, Guy Roth-Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co. Eoth-Argue, Maire Bros . Bates Buzzard, C. A Eoth-Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co. Buzzard, C. A Eoth-Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co Pawhuska Oil & Gas Co Sagamore Oil & Gas Co Do Wolverine OilCo Sand Creek Oil Co Barnsdall Oil Co Sand Fork Gas & Petroleum Co Summit Oil Co San Francisco-Osage Oil Co Schlaet, Black & Rider Do Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co.. Severance, Frank Shea, J.J Breene, F. M Shea, J. J Breene, F. M Moflett, J. S Shea, J. J Phillips, Waite Shryock, G. A Roberts, G. L Hulings, T. C Shulthis, A. W Prairie Oil & Gas Co . Silurian OilCo. Moore, Clint . . . Skelton-MooreOilCo. Spaulding, Charles — Swain, Guy Ronne, J. K Sperata Oil Co Foster, H. V Davis, W.N Mar. 3, 1913 . Mar. 15, 1907 May 9, 1911 loct. 7, 1911, and June 8, 1912. Sept. 13, 1911 Apr. 25, 1907 (Jan. 26, 1905, and Apr. 12, 1911 . \Nov. 6, 1907, and Apr. 12, 1911 . Nov. 6, 1907, and Oct. 7, 1911 . . . Nov. 6, 1907; Apr. 12, 1911; Oct. 7, 1911. Nov. 6, 1907, and Oct. 7, 1911 Nov. 6, 1907; Apr. 12, 1911; and Nov. 6, 1907 Feb. 4, 1907 Feb. 4, 1907, and Feb. 10,1911 Mar. 15, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907 JNov. 21, 1903, and Mar. 15, 1907 Oct. 11, 1907 June 23, 1909 do • Apr. 25, 1907 JMayl8, 1911 Nov. 18, 1907, and May 18, 1911 j-May 28, 1911 . . Sept. 13,1911.. Feb. 23, 1911 June 15, 1910, and Feb. 23, 1911. Mar. 15, 1907, Apr. 29, 1909, and May 1, 1909. Mar. 15, 1907, and Apr. 29, 1909 Feb. 1,1906.. Apr. 25, 1907. >May 10, 1907, and Nov. 29, 1911.. 1448 OSAGE RESERVATION. List A. — Sublessees and assignees of lease, etc- Osngc hinds —Continued. under the so-called Foster Sublessee or assignee. Date of approval. Acreage. Spring City Oil Co Standish Oil Co Steel, John A Do Braden, G. T Steel, John A Penna-Osage Oil Co Sterling Gas & Oil Co Stevens Point Oil Co Sterner Oil Co Mechanics' Savings Bank Stich, A. C Stilwell, M. F Barnsdall Oil Co Sutton, S. W Hetherington, J. F Morphis, J. C Byers, J. C Ratner, S Summit Oil Co Sand Fork Gas & Petroleum Co. Swain, Guy Gunsburg, Dana Swain, Guy Ttoirne, J. K Spauldmg, Charles System Oil Co Breene, F. M Bell, John A., jr Getty, George F System Oil Co Bel], John A Breene, F. M Test Oil Co Texas Co Boston Osage Oil Co Tribal Oil Co Trio Oil & Gas Co _" Uncle Sam Oil Co. Union Oil Co Wagner,S.H Waller.T.M Barnsdall Oil Co Wah-shah-she Oil Co Walker.J.L Producers' Oil Co Couley,C. A Waller, T.M... Wagner,S.H Barnsdall Oil Co Washington Oil Co... . Do Barnsdall Oil Co . . Whiting Oil Co Wichita Drilling & Dev. Co Larkin, F Wigwam Oil Co Wilson, W. M Barnsdall Oil Co.. Wilson, W. M Finance Oil Co Wolverine Oil Co . Do Sagamore Oil & Gas Co. Aug. 30, 1907 Apr 23, 1913 June 17, 1912 Isept. 4, 1913, and Dec. 13, 1910. . . lAug. 20, 1913, and Mar. 20, 2 1907. May 8, 1908 Jan". 21, 190.5 jjan. 4, 1906, and Dec. 16, 1909 Dec. 18, 1905 JDec. 18, 1905, and Aug. 3, 1907 Mar. 15, 1907. Mar. 15, 1907, and Nov. 21, 1903. 24, 1912, and Dec. 13, 1913.' J-Aug. Apr. 25, 1907. Mar. 31, 1911, and Feb. 17, 1912.. Mar. 10, 1911, May 4, 1912, Mar. 31, 1911, and Feb. 17, 1912. Mar. 15, 1907 June 14, 1913, and Aug. 4, 1904 Dec. 18, 1905 May 24, 1906 (Mar. 15, 1907 J, June 2, 1910 (Sept. 22, 1911 Apr. Dec. ■Mar. 26,1905 3,1907,and Aug. 3, 1907. 18,1905 3,1913 •Apr. Dec. JDec. Dec. Feb. Dec. Mar. JMar. ! Nov. Nov. Nov. Jan. Feb 3, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907. . . 18,1905 18, 1905, and Aug. 3, 1907.. 18,1905 29, 1912 18, 1905 30, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907. 30, 1907, and Jan. 31, 1911. 5,1910.. . 10, 1910. 11, 1910. 14,1911.. 28,1911. J-Feb. 10, 1911, and Feb. 4, 1907. 950 161) 717 320 640 1,200 22, 160 1,120 1,600 40 320 1P0 140 20 10,160 1,280 960 1,100 1,100 1,920 4,120 1,100 640 1,280 160 640 1,600 3,520 1,280 80 960 640 640 1,200 960 960 1,200 960 5,280 1,200 OSAGE RESERVATION. 1449 List B.— Leases and assignments approved under the regulations of July 3, 1912. Lessee or assignee. Brast, M. A Assigned to West Virginia Osage 6'ii Co '• assignment dated. May 24, 1913, and approved July 1, 1913. Brast, M. A Carter Oil Co !"!!!! Cosden, J. S Clover, J. M ".".'.".'.". Continental Oil & Refining Co ' ' ! Assigned undivided one-half interest" to Prairie Oil & Gas Co.; assignment dated Mav 24 1913, and approved June 10, 1913. Gilliland, John W Assigned one-fourth interest in sec. 11 T 22 R. 10, and one-half interest in NW } of sec. 14' T. 22, R. 10, to John A. Steel, assignment dated July 8, 1913, and approved Aug. 8, 1913. Gilliland, John W Assigned one-half interest to Prairie Oil & Gas Co., and one-fourth interest to A. W. Shulthis; assignment dated May 31, 1913, and approved Aug. 6, 1913. Gypsy Oil Co Kanawha O il Co Kennedy, Samuel G Springer, W. A.: Assigned undivided one-half interest to P. J. White and H. F. Sinclair; a ssignment dated Apr. 17, 1913, and approved Julv S, 1913. Keystone Oil & Gas Co '. Assigned one-half interest to Prairie Oil & Gas Co.; assignment dated Mav 26, 1913, and approved June 10, 1913. Laurel Oil & Gas Co Leschen, Henrv Roeser,W.H.'. Minnehoma Oil Co . . Do '. Monitor Oil & Gas Co Mowris, W. S Nelson, C. C Prairie Oil & Gas Co., undivided one-half interest Date. 1913 Feb. 1 Oct. IS Oct. 29 Oct. 12 Oct. 15 Feb. 1 .do... .do. Under assignment dated Mav 24, 1913, from Continental Oil & Refining Co. , approved June 10, 1913. Prairie Oil & Gas Co., one-half interest in Under assignment dated Mav 26, 1913, from Keystone Oil & Gas Co., approved June 10, 1913. Prairie Oil & Gas Co Prairie Oil & Gas Co., one-half interest in Under assignment dated May 31, 1913, from John W. Gilliland; approved Aug. 6, 1913. Roxana Petroleum Co Savoy Oil Co Shulthis, A. W. t one-fourth interest in Under assignment dated May 31, 1913, from John VV. Gilliland; approved Aug. 6, 1913. Steel, John A., one-fourth interest in sec. 11, T. 22, R. 10, and one-half interest in N W. i see. 14, T. 22 R. 10 Under assignment dated July 8, 1913, and ap- proved Aug. 8, 1913, from John W. Gilliland. Steel, John A. . Elliott, W. C McClintock.F. G Bissett,C. F Stroud, J. W Twin State Oil Co Do : West Virginia Osage Oil Co Under assignment dated May 24, 1913, from M. A. Brast; approved July 1, 1913. White, P. J., Sinclair, H. F., undivided one-half interest in Under assignment dated Apr. 17, 1913, from Samuel G. Kennedy and W. A. Springer, and approved July 8, 1913. Oct. 13 Nov. 3 Feb. 1 Feb. 1 Oct. 16 ■Oct. 28 Feb. 1 Oct. 27 Oct. 15 Nov. 5 Oct. 24 Oct. 7 Oct. 21 Oct. 20 ■Feb. 1 Oct. 20 Oct. 13 ..do 320. 00 4, 505. 24 160. 00 118. 80 80.00 11,505.00 960. 00 640. 00 2, 298. 79 160.00 4, 780. 00 5,062.00 160.00 160.00 654.00 40.00 240.00 160. 00 160.00 11,505.00 5,062.00 960. 20 640. 00 200. 00 240. 68 640.00 640. 00 320. 00 160. 00 8.60 320. 00 4, 780. 00 Bonus. $3,520.00 4, 505. 24 1, 600. 00 653. 40 4, 000. 00 2,398.50 5, 280. 00 640. 00 204,381.60 960. 00 5,258.00 1,265.50 800. 00 2,448.00 20,274.00 4,960.00 6,472.00 163.20 212. Date of approval 1913 Mar. 3 Nov. 22 ..do.... ..do.... Oct. 30 Mar. 7 Mar. 3 nated subdivi- sions. ...do. Oct. 29 Nov. 22 Mar. 3 Mar. Oct. Nov. 244,943.70 6, 800. 00 1, 350. 00 Mar. 7 Nov. 28 Oct. 30 Nov. 25 Nov. 22 Oct. 27 Oct. Nov. 800. 00 2,200.00 8, 480. 00 2,605.80 Mar. 3 Oct. 30 ...do ...do 32 1 1 1 11 (Stamped:) Office of Indian Affairs. Received Mar. 25, 1911. 1450 OSAGE RESERVATION. [Exact copy of original lease.] Whereas it is known that other Indian nations have for many years and do now receive a very considerable revenue from the development of substances of commercial value found on their reservations; and Whereas it is believed by the Osage people that the reservation held by them in common is rich in similar commodities, which It is their desire to develop; and Whereas one Edwin B. Foster, of New York City, N. Y., has made application to the Osage National Council for the privilege of prospecting and boring for petroleum and natural gas upon the Osage Reservation; and proposes to enter into a contract for that purpose upon terms that will not be detrimental to the agricultural interests of the country, and which would increase the revenue and enhance the value of our common property should such prospect- ing result in the discovery of the said petroleum or natural gas: Now, there- fore, Be it enacted by the Osage National Council, assembled at their council house at Paichnska, Oklahoma, this 11 t th day of March, 1896, That James Righeart, principal chief of the Osage Nation, be, and he is hereby, authorized to enter into a contract with the said Edwin B. Foster for the development of petroleum and natural gas only upon the Osage Reservation, and he is hereby instructed to make the said contract on the form prescribed by the Interior Department to meet the requirements of law governing such leases, for a term of ten years, with the privilege of renewal for a term of ten years more at the expiration thereof, if the results of said lease prove satisfactory and upon the approval of the agent in charge, subject to the approval of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior. John Moziee, Saucy Chief (his x mark), Nat. Secretary. p re s. Council. Thomas Mozieb, James Bigheart, Nat. Int. prin. Chief. I certify the above a true copy of the original as passed by the O. N. Council on the date therein mentioned. H. B. Freeman, Lt. Col. & Actg. Agent. Mining Lease, osage agency, oklahoma territory, 1896. LEASE OF FOB PROSPECTING AND MINING FOR OIL AND GAS UPON THE OSAGE RESERVATION, OKLAHOMA. MINING LEASE. This Menture of lease, in triplicate, made and entered into on this lGth day ?[,; 18 ?°iJ )y S nd between James Bigheart, party of the first part, for and on behalf of the Osage Tribe of Indians, occupying and residing upon th«> Osage Reservation in Oklahoma Territory, under and pursuant to the action of the council of said tribe, speaking for the tribe, duly authorizing the said James Bigheart to contract for the lease of the whole of said reservation, for the period of ten years, for mining purposes, for the production of petroleum 8 u n ? «i sas only ' and du, y empowering the said James Bigheart, for and on behalf of said tribe, to make and execute a lease of said reservation lands, as per resolution of the Osage National Council, hereto attached and made a part of this agreement, and in accordance with the provisions of section 3 of the act of Congress approved February 18, 1891 (26 Stats., 794), as amended by_the act of August 15, 1894 (28 Stats., 305), and Edwin B. Foster party of the second part, witnesseth : y OSAGE KESERVATION. 1451 m^L^K Said L party of tlle flrst part y- for and in consideration of the pay- ^ted %nri h mad i e . b y., sal * Pf rt y ot tb « second part, as herein agreed and stipu- nf fWvl y / Uth ^ nt l 0f the actlon of sald natl °nal council and the said acts L.S does b y. tbese Presents lease and grant unto the said party of the becona pait, his heirs, executors, administrators, and assigns, the exclusive S£ \Z? T m i nm S Purposes as therein specified, for the period of ten years from ^tritin °,o approval thel ?? t by tbe Secretary of the Interior, the following described lands, to wit: All the lands in Oklahoma Territory known as the usage Indian Reservation, for the sole purpose of prospecting for and drilling wells for and mining and producing petroleum and natural gas only, with the right to use so much of the surface of said lands and so much of the timber, building stone, water, wood, gas, or other material found thereon as may be fairly necessary for fuel and with which to construct all dwelling houses, buildings or other improvements upon said land that mav be properly needed m order to successfully conduct said prospecting and mining operations; also the right of way over and across said land to any point desired to prospect upon and to any point where drilling, boring, or prospecting or operating under this lease shall be carried on ; and the right of way and right to construct and operate such pipe lines or roadways as may be reasonably necessary to carry on and successfully prosecute the objects of this indenture. And the said party of the second part, his heirs, executors, administrators, assigns, and sublessees, for and in consideration of the privilege of conducting the mining operations as herein provided for, upon the lands hereinbefore de- scribed, for the period of time herein stated, hereby covenant and agree to pay the national treasurer of the Osage Nation, for the use and benefit of said tribe of Indians, the following royalties, to wit : One-tenth ( rV ) of all crude petroleum mined or procured from said lands, as the same is delivered free in tanks at the wells or places where produced; and fifty dollars ($50.00) per annum for each gas well that may be discovered and utilized, so long as said well is used by said second party; said royalties to be based upon the market value of the products produced at the place of production, and to be paid to the national treasurer of the Osage Nation, for the use and benefit of the Osage tribe of Indians as aforesaid, in cash, at the office of said treasurer. And said second party further agrees to make settlements of accounts with said treasurer on account of royalties as herein provided for between the first and tenth day — both inclusive — of the months of January, April, July, and October of eajh year during the term of this lease. And the party of the second part, his execu- tors, administrators, and assigns, covenant and agree that this indenture is made with the express proviso that if any of said rents or royalties shall remain unpaid for thirty days after the same shall have become due and payable as herein provided for, or if said second party shall use the premises for any pur- pose save that hereinbefore authorized and agreed upon, or shall commit waste or suffer it to be committed on said premises, or misuse or fail to take proper care of the same, or shall pay or surrender said rents and royalties to any per- son other than the person herein named, or his duly authorized deputy, or shall fail to exercise such reasonable diligence as good business principles end the market shall demand in prosecuting said prospecting and mining operations on the said land, and in a good and workmanlike manner, or shall fail to keep and perform any and all other agreements and covenants contained in this indenture, then, in case of any such default, and if such default shall continue for thirty (30) days after written notice thereof to said lessee, his successors or assigns, then this lease shall thereupon expire at the option and election of the Osnge Nation, as expressed by the national council, with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, without other notice or demand from the said party of the first part upon the party of the second part, and said party of the first part may reenter upon said premises and repossess and recover the same to all intents and purposes as though said parties of the second part had never occupied the same, and without such reentering and without demand for rent, said party of the first part may take possession thereof in the manner prescribed by law relating to proceedings in such cases. And it is further mutually agreed and understood by and between the parties hereto, that the Osage Nation reserves all right it hath, and its citizens have, to cultivate, graze, and improve, and to lease for farming, grazing, and mining purposes, other than for the mining purpose herein named, all and every part of the lands contained in said reservation, subject to the limitation herein con- 1452 OSAGE RESERVATION. tained, and such right shall not be Interfered with or disturbed by the party of the' second part, his heirs, executors, administrators, or assigns, except to such an extent as may be actually and absolutely necessary in prospecting for and in conducting and marketing the produtcs herein named; and said second party, and those acting under, through, or by him shall not prospect for or drill or bore any wells for the production of the substances herein mentioned within or upon any cultivated inclosure on said reservation without the written consent of the person occupying such premises, duly acknowledged before the V. S. Indian agent of the Osage Agency. And it is further expressly agreed between the parties hereto that the Osage Nation shall have the right to the free use of gas for all Government, school, and other public buildings of the nation from any well or wells that may be discovered on said land; and this right shall also extend to all citizens of the nation for domestic purposes; provided that no expense shall be incurred by the party of the second part in piping gas for such purposes. And said second party, in consideration of the covenants herein contained, further covenants and agrees not to remove from said lands any buildings or improvements erected thereon during the term of this lease ; but said buildings and improve- ments shall become a part of the land and shall remain thereon and become the property of the Osage Nation as a part of the consideration herein provided for; provided, that all engines, derricks, tools, and machinery shall remain the property of the party of the second part. But it is also further expressly provided between the parties hereto, that in case of failure on the part of the party of the second part to pay the rents and royalties as herein specified, the Osage Nation shall have a lien upon all buildings, improvements, engines, derricks, tools, and machinery erected upon or brought upon said lands by the said second party to secure the payment of rents and royalties. And the said second party further agrees and covenants to exercise such diligence in conducting said prospecting and mining operations as shall be consistent with good business principles, and to open and operate mines and wells for the products above indicated in a good and workmanlike manner; to commit no waste upon said lands and to suffer no waste to be committed thereon ; to take good care of the same and to surrender and return the prem- ises at the expiration of this lease to the Osage Nation in as good condition as when received, ordinary wear .and tear in the proper use of the same for the purposes herein indicated, and unavoidable accidents, excepted. And it is further expressly agreed that if prospecting hereunder shall not be begun within six months after the approval of this lease by the Secretary of the Interior, or if one or the other of the products herein mentioned be not discovered in paying quantities within eighteen months after such approval, or in case of the failure of the party of the second part for a period of six months at any one time to conduct prospecting or mining operations hereunder, then, or in either of said cases, this lease shall terminate, and the party of the second part shall have and exercise no further rights hereunder. And it is further agreed between the parties hereto that the said second party shall keep a true and accurate record and account of said mining opera- tions, showing the whole amount of petroleum mined and produced hereunder and the number of gas wells bored and the number in operation, with dates of boring and operating, and that the Osage Nation through its proper officers, the U. S. Indian agent of the Osage Agency, the special Indian agent, and Indian inspectors of the Interior Department, or such other persons as may be designated by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs or the Secretary of the Interior, shall at all times have the right to make such reasonable examination of the books, accounts, records, and papers of the party of the second part, or those claiming under him, as may be necessary to enable them to obtain all information desired as to the amount of petroleum mined and produced here- under and as to the number of gas wells bored and the number that have been operated and utilized, together with the dates of boring and using. And it is also further provided that the said party of the second part shall enter into a good and sufficient bond, with at least two sureties, in the sum of $5,000, payable to the Secretary of the Interior for the use and benefit of the Osage Nation, conditioned upon the faithful performance of the conditions of this lease, which bond shall be approved by the Secretary of the Interior. It is also provided that this lease shall become operative only after its approval by the Secretary of the Interior. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1453 And it is further expressly provided that the said party of the second part, or those claiming under him, shall not maintain any nuisance on said reserva- tion, and shall not sell or give away, or permit their employees to sell or give away any intoxicating liquors on said reservation during the term of this lease ; and that he or they will not use the premises for any other purpose than that authorized in the lease. And it is agreed and understood between the parties hereto that the privilege of conducting mining operations hereunder is permitted and agreed to upon the express condition that if the Indian title to any portion of the lands used and occupied by the lessee, his heirs, or assigns shall be extinguished before the expiration of the time herein stated, then and in that event this lease shall be void and of no force and effect with reference to the lands to which the title shall be extinguished, from and after the date of such extinguishment; and the lessee shall be subject to removal therefrom upon 60 days' notice from the Secretary of the Interior, in his discretion : Provided, That the extinguish- ment of title herein mentioned shall not apply to lands which shall be allotted in severalty to Indians, so as to effect this lease to the lands so allotted, but in case any such lands are so allotted, then the royalties accruing on the same shall be paid to the allottees, respectively, instead of to the national treasurer of the Osage Nation. It is further provided between the parties hereto that no member of or Dele- gate to Congress, or officer, agent, or employee of the Government shall be admitted to any share or part in this lease, or derive any benefit to arise therefrom. In testimony whereof, the said parties of the first and second parts have hereunto set their hands and seals the day and date first above named. All erasures and interlineations having been made before signing. Witnesses: James Bigheabt, [seal.1 Fred Mobbis, Prin. Chief. Eustace Wheeler. Witnesses: Edwin B. Foster, [seal.] E. C. Gordon, James S. Glenn. On this 16th dav of March, 1896, personally appeared before me, H. B. Freeman, Lt. Col. *5th Inf., acting U. S. Indian agent of the Osage Agency, the above mentioned James Bigheart and the above named personally known to me to be the identical persons named, and acknowledged the signing and sealing of the above indenture of lease, for the purposes therein named, to be their free act and deed. H. B. Freeman, Lieut. Col. 5th Inf., Acting TJ. 8. Indian Agent. interpreter's certificate. I John Hosier, do hereby certify that I am the official interpreter of the Osage Nation ; that I fully and truthfully interpreted and explained the fore- going lease to the Osage Nation Council, before the signing and sealing thereof, and am satisfied that they clearly and fully understood the nature of said lease and all the terms thereof before authorizing the said James Bigheart to execute the same for and on behalf of the Osage Nation; and that I wit- nessed the signing and sealing thereof on the part of said James Bigheart this 16th day of March, 1896. John Mosier, Official Interpreter, Osage Nation. The above lease was renewed as to 680,000 acres for a period of ten years from March 16, 1906, by the Indian appropriation act -for the fiscal year ending June 30 1905, approved March 3, 1905, increasing gas-well royalty from &50 to $100 per annum^ and royalty on oil to be fixed by the President The Presi- dent's order of June 3, 1905, increased the royalty on oil to one-eighth. The act of March 3, 1905, was reaffirmed by "An act for the division of the lands and funds of the Osage Indians, and for other purposes," approved June 28, 1906. - ,: 35601— pt 12—14 5 1454 OSAGE RESEKVATION. Regulations to Govern the Leasing of Lands in the Osaoe Reservation, Okla., for Oil and Gas Mining Purposes. Section 3 of an act of Congress, approved June 28, 1900 (34 Stat. L., 539, 543), provides: "That the oil, gas, coal, or other minerals covered by the lands for the selec- tion and division of which provision is herein made are hereby reserved to the Osage Tribe for a period of twenty-five years from and after the eighth day of April, nineteen hundred and six, and leases for all oil, gas, and other minerals, covered by selections and division of land herein provided for, may be made by the Osage Tribe of Indians through its tribal council, and with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe : Provided, That the royalties to be paid to the Osage Tribe un- der any mineral lease so made shall be determined by the President of the United States: And provided further, That no mining of or prospecting for any of said mineral or minerals shall be permitted on the homestead selections herein provided for without the written consent of the Secretary of the In- terior : Provided, however, That nothing herein contained shall be construed as affecting any valid existing lease or contract." To carry this provision of law into effect the following regulations are pre- scribed to govern the leasing of such lands for oil and gas mining purposes : DEFINITION. 1. The term " officer in charge " shall refer to the superintendent of the Osage Indian School or other representative of the Government who may, for the time, be in charge of the Osage Agency and Reservation, or any person who may be detailed by the Secretary of the Interior or the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to take charge of leasing or mining operations under these regulations. 2. At such times as the Secretary of the Interior shall direct, the officer in charge shall publish in the two leading newspapers of Pawhuska, Okla., and in such other manner as shall be deemed appropriate notices that specific tracts of Osage lands will be offered for lease to the highest and most responsible bidder, under the sealed-bid system, leases to be executed upon the prescribd form and subject to these regulations. 3. Should the Osage National Council or any person or corporation desire to have any particular tract of land offered for lease, written request to that effect should be submitted to the officer in charge, who will promply transmit such requests to the Secretary of the Interior with his recommendation. 4. The lands selected for lease will, as a rule, be offered in large tracts, with designated subdivisions thereof of from three hundred and twenty (320) to five thousand one hundred and twenty (5,120) acres. Bids will be considered for any one or more of the smaller tracts or desig- nated subdivisions, up to the maximum acreage which may be leased by any one person, firm, or corporation, as provided in section eighteen (18) of these regulations. No bid for any fractional part or subdivision of any tract, except as adver- tised, will be considered. The right is reserved to reject any and all bids. 5. If a bidder for several designated subdivisions desires to secure all or none, he may so state in his bid. 6. All bids shall be submitted on Form A, which may be obtained from the officer in charge. 7. Bids must be inclosed in a sealed envelope addressed to the Superintend- ?. o'-„ * ge ^ ndlan ^ ch ° o1 ' Pawu "ska, Okla., on which must be plainly written Bids for leases, Osage Nation, to be opened " (giving the date of opening named in the published advertisement). Each bid must be accom- panied by a certified check on a solvent national bank, payable to the superin- tendent and special disbursing officer, Osage Agency, in an amount representing , n «2? r cen t (K>%) of the bonus offered plus the first year's advance rental of fifteen (15) cents per acre, as a guarantee of good faith and the intention of the bidder to comply with the conditions of the bid and of the regulations OSAGE RESERVATION. 1455 8. A corporation shall file with its first bid one certified copy of articles of incorporation, and, if a foreign corporation, evidence showing compliance with local corporation laws; a list of all officers and stockholders, with their post- office addresses, and showing the number of shares of capital stock held by each, together with a sworn statement of its proper officer showing — (a) The total number of shares of the capital stock actually issued, the num- ber of shares actually sold and specifically the amount of cash paid into the treasury on the stock sold; or, if paid in property, state kind, quantity, and value of the same paid. (6) Of the stock sold, how much per share remains unpaid and subject to assessment. (c) How much cash the company has in its treasury and elsewhere, and from what sources it was received. (c?) What property, exclusive of cash, is owned by the company, and its value. (c) T^hat the total indebtedness of the company is, and specifically the nature of its obligations. (/) List of officers and directors. 9. All bids received by the officer in charge in pursuance of any authorized advertisement shall be opened by him or his representative on the day and at the hour named in the published advertisement in the council room of the Osage Tribe and in the presence of the Osage National Council, or such mem- bers thereof as may attend. As the bids are opened full information concerning each bid shall be entered in a journal and the same placed before the Osage Council for its action. EXECUTION OF LEASES AND BONDS. 10. Successful bidders will be allowed thirty (30) days from date of notice of acceptance of bid within which to execute leases and otherwise comply, with these regulations. Failure on the part of a bidder whose bid shall be accepted to comply with this paragraph shall operate as a forfeiture of the amount ten- dered as a guarantee of good faith. Successful bidders shall pay to the officer in charge the unpaid balances of their bids upon approval of their leases by the Secretary of the Interior. De- livery of leases shall be withheld pending such payment. The amounts tendered with all bids that are rejected shall be immediately returned to the bidders. 11. No drilling or mining shall be permitted upon any tract of land until a lease covering such tract shall have been approved by the Secretary of the Interior and delivered to the lessee. 12. All lenses shall be made for a period of ten (10) years from the date of approval thereof by the Secretary of the Interior and as long thereafter as oil and gas are found in paying quantities: Provided, That in no cnse shall the term of any lease extend beyond April eight (8), nineteen hundred and thirty- one (1931). One lease shall be executed to cover all the designated subdivisions of the par- ticular large track advertised which may be awarded to the same bidder. Leases made by corporations shall be accompanied by a single affidavit, form " E," by the secretary or president of the company, showing the authority of its officers to execute leases, bonds, and other papers. 13 No individual, firm, pipe-line company or other corporation, engaged in the business of transporting oil, shall be permitted to acquire any lease or any interest therein Lessees shall 'furnish with each lease an affidavit on form " D," which shall state specifically that he, it, or they are not engaged in the business of trans- porting oil, and what, if any, consideration has been paid by such lessee or on his behalf and to whom, for the execution of the lease. 14 The 'action of the tribal council in connection with the acceptance of any bid or bids and the execution of any lease or leases shall be reduced to writing and Properly signed and authenticated. A certificate signed by the principal chief or assistant principal chief and attested by the secretary, showing action of the council, should be attached to each lease. .,..„,, .„, .,, - 15 Lessees shall furnish with each lease, at the time it is filed with the officer in chargfa bond (Form C) with two or more acceptable sureties, or with a surety company duly authoried to act as sole surety on bonds running to the 1456 OSAGE RESERVATION. United States. Such bonds shall he in an amount equal to three thousand dollars (JfM.OOO) for each and every designated subdivision covered by the par- ticular lease. All bonds shall be conditioned for the payment of all rents, royaties, and dam- ages, if any, and for the faithful carrying out of all other provisions of the lease, and shall contain specific reference in case such test wells are not drilled within the time required, and payment of damages done to the surface of the land, as provided in section twenty-six (26) of these regulations. The right is specifically reserved to change the amount of the bond in any particular case or to require a new bond where the Secretary of the Interior may deem it proper so to do. 16. The officer in charge may, at any time, either before or after approval of a lease, call for any additional information necessary to carry out the pur- pose and intent of these regulations, and such information shall be furnished within the time specified in the request therefor. 17. Should a lessee fail to furnish, within the time specified after his bid is accepted, the papers necessary to put his lease and bond in proper form for consideration, the officer in charge shall forward such lease immediately for disapproval. ACREAGE. 3.S. Xo person, firm, or corporation may hold at any one time under lease, assignment, drilling contract, or otherwise, more than twenty-five thousand (25,000) acres of Osage lands at present not under lease for oil or gas pro- duction; but any lessee who may surrender or in good faith transfer, in the manner prescribed in these regulations, all or any part of his holdings may acquire other lands in lieu of those surrendered or transferred. RENTALS AND ROYALTIES. .1!). Lessee-; shall pay, in addition to other considerations, annual advance rentals as follows : Fifteen cents per acre for the first year ; 30 cents per acre for the second year; 50 cents per acre for the third year; and $1 per acre per annum for the fourth and each succeeding year during the life of any lease; Provided, That all such payments of advanced rentals shall be credits on royal- ties on production during the year for which payment of advanced rental is made. The payment of annual advance rental shall not release the lessee from the obligation to drill test wells, as required by the terms of the lease. 20. As provided in the act of June 28," 1906, supra, the President has fixed royalties on production as follows: (a) On oil the rate of royalty shall be sixteen and two-thirds per cent (161%) of the gross proceeds of all oil produced from the leased premises and such royalty shall be paid in money, based on the actual market value, not less than (he guaranteed minimum value of sixty (60) cents per barrel, unless the Osage Council elects, with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, to take the royalty in oil. (6) For gas, which is sold or used other than for the development of the lands covered by the lease, the rate of royalty shall be sixteen and two-thirds per cent (16$%) of the market value of such gas at the well: Provided That should either the Osage Council or the Secretary of the Interior be of the opinion that the price at which the lessee sells such gas is not the true market value at the well, the Secretary of the Interior shall, after notice and hearing deter- mine the market value, and the lessee shall account to the lessor at the rate fixed by the Secretary of the Interior as aforesaid. Meters shall be installed at the expense of the lessee for the purpose of measuring the supply of gas and the accounting shall be on the basis of the supply as shown bv the meter statements. The standard rock pressure in the sale of gas shall be 2 pounds. Where wells produce both oil and gas in commercial quantities and the gas is found in a formation sufficiently above the oil-bearing sand and has been cased off and utilized, such gas shall be gauged and the royalty determined as herein provided for gas wells. Where wells produce both oil and gas through the same casing, or gas alone in limited quantities, lessees may dispose of such gas upon payment of royalty. Failure on the part of the lessee to use a gas-producing well which can not be profitably utilized at the rate herein described shall not work a forfeiture of OSAGE RESERVATION. 1457 his lease so far as tie same relates to mining oil, but if the lessee desires to r ,V?^ § as -P roducm g privileges he shall pay a rental of one hundred dollars ($100) per annum, in advance, calculated from the date of discovery of gas on each gas-producing well, gas from which is not marketed or utiliz*ed other- wise than for operations under the lease. In the event that any lessee during the course of a year desires to utilize commercially the gas from a well retained in accordance with the foregoing paragraph, the one hundred dollars ($100) paid as royalty shall be credited on the amount due from the lessee during the course of that year on account of the sale of gas from such well; the total amount to be paid by any lessee, however, in any one year shall be not less than one hundred dollars ($100) on each gas well on the land covered by his lease. PAYMENT OF RENTALS AND ROYALTIES. 21. All rentals, royalties, damages, or other amounts which may become due under leases approved in accordance with these regulations shall be paid to the superintendent of the Osage Indian School at Pawhuska, Okla. The remit- tances shall be in St. Louis or Kansas City exchange, except that where such exchange can not be procured post-office or express money orders will be accepted. All royalties or other payments or claims of the Osage Tribe arising under such leases shall be a lien upon the mining plant, machinery, and all minerals mined on the property leased or in which the lessee still retains any right, claim, or interest. 22. Royalties on all oil and gas produced in any month shall be paid on or before the twenty-fifth (25th) day of the month next succeeding, and the remit- tances shall be accompanies by sworn reports covering all operations whether there has been production or not. Lessees shall show in this statement the total amount of oil and gas sold and not merely their working interest, and also the dates of discovery and beginning of utilization of gas from gas wells. 23. The lessee may include in one sworn statement all leases upon which there is no production or upon which dry holes have been drilled. 24. Unless the Osage National Council elects to take its royalties in oil, as provided in section twenty (20) hereof, the lessee may, with the consent of the officer in charge, make arrangements with the purchasers of oil for the payment of royalty to the superintendent of the Osage Indian School, but such arrange- ments, if made, shall not operate to relieve the lessee from the responsibility for the payment of the royalty, should such purchaser fail, neglect, or refuse to pay the royalty. Where lessees avail themselves of the privilege outlines in this paragraph, division orders authorizing pipe-line companies or other pur- chasers of oil to withhold the royalty interest shall be executed and forwarded to the officer in charge for approval before the oil from any well is run to any pipe-line company or other purchaser. Pipe-line companies shall not accept or run oil from such leases until after the approval of division orders showing that the lessee has a lease regularly approved and in effect. OPERATION. 25. Bach lessee shall commence to drill at least one well on each and every leased designated subdivision within ninety (90) days and shall complete such well or wells within one year from the date of the approval of the lease by the Secretary of the Interior. After the drilling of a well is commenced, the drilling operations shall be conducted with due and reasonable diligence until such well is completed or is drilled to such depth as the oil inspector of the Osage Agency shall deem reasonable. Failure on the part of the lessee to begin continue, or complete the drilling of the well shall be cause for cancella- tion or forfeiture of all or any part of the lease, as the Secretary of the Interior, in his discretion, may determine. In addition to forfeiture of the lease for failure to drill the required test well or wells provided for in the lease, the lessee and his surety, by reason of the impossibility of accurtaely determining the amount of damages which will be occasioned the Osage Nation by such default, shall pay to the officer in charge for the use and benefit of the lessor, as and for liquidated damages and not as a penalty, the sum of two thousand dollars ($2,000) for each and every test well required by the lease to be drilled and not completed within one year from the date or tJ approval of the lease by the Secretary of the Interior, and execution of the lease shall be conclusive evidence of the assent of lessee and 1458 OSAGE RESERVATION. lessor to liquidated damages in the sum of two thousand dollars ($2,000) per well for defaults within the time limit named herein, and the lessee and his surety shall be liable for such payment, even though the Secretary of the Interior, in his discretion, should continue the lease in force and effect. Any lessee, having drilled and completed the test well or wells required by the lease to bo drilled and completed, may release and surrender all the land covered by the lease or any designated subdivision thereof, or such sections of six hundred and forty (640) acres of any designated subdivision as he may elect, on the payment of all rentals and royalties due on the date of such sur- render, as provided in section forty-five (45) of these regulations. Any lessee electing to hold his lease, or any designated subdivision thereof exceeding in area two thousand five hundred and sixty (2,560) acres, after the period of one year allowed for the drilling of one test well on each designated subdivision has expired shall drill and complete at least one additional test well on each designated subdivision exceeding two thousand five hundred and sixty (2,560) acres within one year from and after the date of expiration of the time allowed for the drilling and completion of the first test well, or in default thereof shall pay to the officer in charge for the use and benefit of the Osage Nation by reason of the impossibility of determining the amount of damage which will be occasioned to the lessor on account of failure to drill the second test well as aforesaid the sum of two thousand dollars ($2,000), as and for liquidated damages and not as a penalty, for each second test well for which the lessee is in default in addition to any and all other payments required by these regulations and the terms of the lease. 26. Lessees may use so much of the surface of the leased land as shall be reasonably necessary for the prospecting and mining operations required by the lease, and shall also have the right of way over and across such land to any point of prospecting or mining operations, but such use of the surface shall be permissible only under condition of least injury and inconvenience to the allottee or owner of the land. Lessees before commencing and during such operations shall pay all reasonable damages for the use of the surface land and to any growing crops thereon, or to improvements on said land, or any damage that during the life of the lease may be occasioned in any manner whatsoever by the use of the surface, to the allottee or his successor in interest or assignee, or to a lessee of the surface of said land, damages to be apportioned among the parties interested in the surface, whether as owners, lessees, or otherwise, as the parties in interest may mutually agree or as their interests may appear: Provided, That when the amount of such damage is not agreed upon between the parties in interest any of said parties may notify the officer in charge, whereupon such officer shall notify the parties in interest that he will after ten days from date of notice investigate the matter of damages, such notice to be sent to the lessee, allottee, or his heirs, and such other persons as may have informed the officer in charge in writing of a claim to an interest in the lands. The officer in charge shall thereupon determine the damages and appor- tionment thereof between the parties in interest, such determination to be final unless an appeal therefrom be taken to the Secretary of the Interior within ten (10) days from date of notice of the determination by the officer in charge. The decision of the Secretary of the Interior on appeal shall be final and con- clusive on all parties. Where appeals are taken to the Secretary of the Interior the lessee may proceed with operations, pending appeal, by depositing with the ofiicer in charge the amount fixed by him as damages, and pending action on the appeal so much of said amount as is not in dispute between the parties in interest may be disbursed. Where any party in interest is a minor or noncom- petes Indian any agreement made as to damages, or failure to agree, may be investigated by both the principal chief of the Osage Tribe and the officer in charge within ten days after notification to them by any party in interest, and an appraisal and written statement in reference thereto made bv the principal chief and the officer in charge in writing, said written appraisal and statements to be transmitted to the Secretary of the Interior in case of a disagreement between them or of an appeal from their determination, and the action of the Secretary of the Interior shall be final and conclusive on all parties. 27. Lessees and those acting under them shall not conduct prospecting or mining operations within or upon any homestead selection or upon land which has been cultivated thirty days or more prior to application to drill, without the written consent of the Secretary of the Interior, to be given only after a written statement showing the views of the allottee with reference thereto or after reasonable opportunity shall have been given for the allottee to be OSAGE KESERVATION". 1459 heard, and after appraisal and determination of damages shall have been agreed upon or fixed as heretofore provided with respect to other allotment^ Guard ^wISL 01 " natm ' a1 ' ma , y make SUCh written ^atement for their Indian wards a h„,.l\ I™ ° Ue 1S a " thoriz <^ or where no person is deemed by the officer in ft, 10 be „ a P™per Party to speak for a minor or person of unsound mffid o? chiefl^roSTrfoe 8 " 011 *" * taM ^ be made ^ t^SjS n^; Any , p . er ? on ' othei ' tnan a lessee or an allottee or the heirs of a deceased allottee .claiming an interest in any leased tract or in damages thereto must furnish to the officer in charge a statement in writing showing hfs interest and failure to furnish such statement shall constitute a waiver of notice and estop b^nSirser B ™ J ^ ° f ""^ aamageS after the ^%h all have 29. Lessees will not be permitted to use any timber from any Osage lands not relieved of restrictions upon alienation except under written agreement with the owner approved by the officer in charge. 30. No well shall be drilled within fifty feet of any public highway or sec- ^ m , e ' , N °- oil ° r g as wel1 or tank shall be located within three hundred 'f 1 '.^ of any bllll ding used as a dwelling, granary, shelter for stock, or established watering place, unless, in order to prevent serious loss to any lessee by reason of drainage, written permission to drill within said prohibited dis- tance shall be given by the officer in charge after ten (10) days' notice to the allottee as herein provided. As far as practicable, all pipes shall be laid under- ground, so as not to interfere with agricultural or grazing privileges, and the oil inspector of the Osage Agency shall have the right of final decision in all cases as to the practicability in view of all the circumstances including the place of operations and the cost of laying such pipes underground. 31. Lessees or operators shall plug all dry or abandoned wells in accordance with the laws of the State of Oklahoma. In the event the lessee or operator shall fail to plug properly any dry or abandoned well in accordance with the laws of the State, the officer in charge may. after five (5) days' notice to the parties in interest, plug such well at the risk and cost of the lessee and his sureties. Failure to plug a dry or abandoned well as herein provided shall be a good and sufficient cause for the cancellation of the lease in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior. 32. Whenever any lessee or operator, in drilling wells for oil or gas on lands from which coal or other minerals are being mined, finds that such well passes through any such mine, the lessee or operator shall drill the well to a depth of at least 10 feet below the vein of coal or other mineral being mined, and such well shall be cased and sealed on the outside of the casing with suitable ma- terial to the level of the floor of the mine, and each vein of coal or other mineral being mined, pierced by such well, shall be sealed in the same manner. Upon the abandonment of any well drilled for oil or gas, which has passed through any vein of coal or other mineral, the lessee or operator shall fully protect such vein of coal or other mineral in the same manner as has been heretofore provided in section thirty-one hereof for the protection of oil or gas bearing rock or sand or in such manner as shall be satisfactory to the officer in charge. 33. All " B-S ■' or other refuse from tanks and wells shall be drawn off into proper receptacles at a safe distance from the tanks, well, or buildings, and disposed of by being burned; but in no case shall it be permitted to flow over the surface of the land to the injury of any surrounding property or to the pollution of any stream : Provided, That in cases where it is impossible to burn " B-S " and other refuse, or where in the operation of a well it is neces- sary to pump salt water in such quantities as would damage the surface of the lands or pollute any stream, the officer in charge, after having been so notified by the lessee or operator, shall cause an examination of the conditions and shall issue instructions in each separate instance as to the manner in which the " B-S " and refuse or salt water shall be disposed of. Failure on the part of the lessee to properly care for " B-S " and other refuse, in accordance with this provision, will be sufficient cause for the cancellation of the lease by the Secretary of the Interior after notice and opportunity to be heard. 34. If in the drilling of wells both gas and oil are encountered in commercial quantities and the gas is found in a formation sufficiently above the oil-bearing sand to permit being separated from the oil by casing, such gas shall be so separated from the oil and securely shut in and preserved, and shall not be 1460 OSAGE RESERVATION. permitted to flow with the oil through the same string of casing: Provided, That in all those cases where a well is producing both oil and gas and it is impossible or impracticable to case the gas off from the oil, it shall then be within the discretion of the officer in charge, subject to appeal to the Secretary of the Interior, to determine whether such well shall be operated as an oil well or shall be closed in until such time as the gas may be utilized and the oil produced without waste of gas. 35. To prevent the escape of gas, lessees and operators in possession of any gas-producing well shall, within five days after penetrating the gas-bearing rock or sand, shut in and confine the gas in such well until such time as the ;;as shall be utilized for light, fuel, steam, or other purposes: Provided, That this regulation shall not apply to any well which is operated for oil, or during the process of drilling when reasonable diligence is used, or when oil is found in a lower stratum of sand and the gas found in the upper stratum is cased off and the well is operated as an oil well. Lessees or operators shall pay to the officer in charge the sum of ten dollars ($10) per day for each well during the time such well is allowed to go uncontrolled or uncared for, as provided in this section, unavoidable accidents excepted. Amendment to the regulations of July 3, 1912, governing the leasing of lands in the Osage Reservation, Okla., for oil and gas-mining purposes, under section 3 of the act of June 28, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 539, 543). Section 35 of the regulations approved July 3, 1912, to govern the leasing of lands in the Osage Reservation, Okla., for oil andl gas-mining purposes, is hereby amended and modified to read as follows : "Sec. 35. (a) Lessees, sublessees, and assignees drilling for oil or gas on Indian lands must keep at each well ready for immediate use, the best approved facilities for capping the well to prevent the waste of gas or oil in case of the unexpected flow of either from the well; in case of wells already under way, immediately notify the superintendent of the Osage agency of the exact location of each well and the kind of equipment for capping oil and gas wells provided by them. Lessees, sublessees, and assignees must hereafter furnish such report immediately upon the commencement of every new well. "(6) In all oil or gas wells where gas occurs above the oil, the gas must be forced back and held in the strata until needed, in which case the drilling for oil can be resumed as soon as the gas has been confined in its own stratum, or the drilling must be discontinued and the well securely capped to prevent the waste of the gas, or the gas must be cased off and brought out of the well for use, separate from the oil. ,: In no case shall gas occurring in strata above the oil be used to lift oil from the oil-bearing strata to the surface and be allowed to escape. "(c) Operators will be expected to exercise every reasonable precaution to avoid waste of natural gas, after separation from the oil, where the gas occurs in^the same strata and comes from the wells with the oil. " In general, every possible precaution must be taken to stop the present waste and prevent future waste of natural gas both at the wells and from con- necting pipe lines, and also to prevent the wasteful use of gas about the wells (d) When, in the course of drilling, operators strike water, drilling must be stopped, before proceeding into the strata, until adequate provision has been made for permanently shutting out the water and thus preventing its reaching either the overlying or underlying oil and gas bearing strata. (c) A failure on the part of the lessees or operators to prevent a waste of gas and to protect the oil and gas strata from an inflow of water, as provided by these regulations, shall be a violation of one of the material and substantial terms and conditions of the lease and shall subject the lease to cancellation by the Secretary of the Interior." These amendments shall become effective and be in full force from and after therewith appl ' 0vaI hereof ' llnd su P ers ede all former regulations in conflict Cato Sells, Commlnoner of Indian Affairs. Department of the Interior, Washington D G Approved August 25, 1913. A. A. Jones. First Assistant Secretary. OSAGE RESERVATION. 1461 36. Lessees shall have the right to the free use of so much of the oil and gas on any leased tract as shall be fairly necessary for light and fuel In mining operations conducted on such tract, but such privilege shall be restricted to an economical use by the means of modern appliances: Provided, That should oil or gas be furnished from any leased tract to the lessee, driller, or opera tor on another leased tract, the lessee furnishing oil or gas for mining operations on such other leased tract not producing sufficient oil or gas to conduct operations thereon shall pay to the officer in charge the royalties prescribed in the lease. 37. Lessees and those operating under them who may use natural gas for outside illumination upon the premises covered by a lease shall be required to use the device known as a " Storm burner," or other burner which consumes no more gas than the " Storm burner." Lamps shall not be lighted earlier than five (5) o'clock in the afternoon and shall be extinguished not later than eight (8) o'clock each morning, and the officer in charge shall be the sole judge as to the number of lights to be permitted upon and around any leased tract, subject to appeal therefrom to the Secretary of the Interior. Stop- cocks shall be placed on all pipes used for conveying gas to burning devices of any 'character and the gas shall be shut off at all times wiien not in use. 38. Lessees and those operating under them, using natural gas for fuel in steam boilers, shall provide a standard economical burner adapted for steam boilers and shall also provide such boilers with standard boiler regulators so connected that the steam pressure will regulate the flow of gas. The boiler shall also be provided with a smokestack not less than ten (10) feet in height. 30. Lessees shall provide proper tankage of suitable shape for accurate meas- urement into which production of crude oil shall be conducted direet from wells through pipes or other closed connections. If the contents of such tanks are removed from the leased premises or disposed of in any manner other than to a purchaser to whom a division order has been approved, authority therefor must first be procured from the officer in charge, accurate measurement made, and the production reported and royalty thereon paid in the usual manner. 40. In cases of emergency where the capacity of new wells is such that lessees are unable immediately to provide proper tankage, production may, with the approval of the officer in charge, be conducted to open ponds or earthen tanks, but in no case shall any embankment exceed fifteen (15) feet in height. Such ponds or earthen tanks shall be so constructed as to minimize the danger of overflow or collapse or damage to crops on adjacent property. 41. Crude oil run into earthen tanks in cases of emergency shall not be allowed to remain in such earthen tankage for a longer period than fifteen (15) days, except that where lessees desire so to store their oil such tankage may be used after the oil has been properly gauged and royalty paid thereon when the tanks are so constructed as to remove all reasonable danger of fires, overflow, and damage to other property. The right is reserved for the officer in charge to supervise the construction of earthen tanks. 42. Oil to be temporarily held or stored in earthen tankage must be run from the wells into receiving tanks capable of accurate measurement, and then gauged before being turned into earthen tankage. 43 Oil shall not be sold to a pipe-line company until a division order is approved bv the officer in charge. Should the lessee desire to soil or remove oil from the leased premises in any other manner, such sale or removal shall not be made until first authorized by the officer in charge. The lessee or his authorized representative shall actually be present when oil taken under division orders is run by the pipe-line company and the lessee shall be respon- sible for the correct measurement and report of oil so run ; and shall be liable to account on the basis of the pipe-line reports, plain error or mistake excepted, otherwise the approval of division orders may be revoked. ASSIGNMENTS. 44 Approved leases or any interest therein may be sublet, transferred, or assigned with the consent and approval of the Secretary of the Interior and not otherwise Subleases, transfers, or assignments, when so approved shaU be subject to the terms and conditions of the original leases and the regulations under which such leases were approved as well as to such additional require- ments Is the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. The sublessee, trans- feree or assigned shall furnish with his sublease, transfer or assignment a satisfactory bond as hereinbefore prescribed in connection with leases. Any attempt to sublease, transfer, or assign an approved lease or any interest thweL without the consent and approval of the Secretary of the Interior shall 1462 OSAGE KESERVATION. be absolutely void and shall subject the original lease to cancellation in the discretion of such Secretary. SURRENDER AND CANCELLATION. 45 When a lessee makes application for the cancellation of a lease in whole or in part all royalties or rentals due up to and including the date of the appli- cation for cancellation must be paid, and that part of the lease delivered the lessee shall be surrendered before such application will be considered. In the event a lease is surrendered for cancellation, in whole or in part, after a new lease year has been entered upon, the lessee and his surety shall be liable for the advanced rentals required to be paid under the lease for that year, and no part of such rentals which may have been paid shall be refunded. 46. All lessees shall maintain offices or have representatives at Pawhuska, in Osage County, Okla. 47. Lessees, sublessees, and assignees must submit to the officer in charge on Januarv first (1) of e:ich year, and at such other times as may be required by the Secretary of the Interior, a statement containing the information called for in paragraphs "a" and "f " of section eight (8) of these regulations and also showing any changes in officers or changes in or additions to stockholders. A: any time individual stockholders may be required to show to the satisfaction of the Secretary of the Interior in what companies or with what persons or firms they are interested in oil or gas mining leases on the Osage Reservation and whether they hold such stock or interests for themselves or in trust. 48. Lessees shall allow the agents and representatives of the lessor, or any authorized representative of the Interior Department, to enter, from time to time, upon and into all parts of the leased premises for the purposes of inspec- tion and shall further agree to keep a full and correct account of all operations and make reports thereof, as herein required, and their books and records showing manner of operations and persons interested shall be open at all times for the examination of such officers of the department as shall be instructed by the Secretary of the Interior to make such examinations. 49. All persons or corporations drilling wells under approved leases, subleases, or assignments shall keep a true and correct record of each well, including the log of same, and shall furnish to the officer in charge a copy of such log not later than 15 days after such well has been drilled, duly certified to under oath by the operator or his representative, and the said operator or his representative shall furnish a statement under oath as to whether the rig timbers were pro- cured on the Osage Reservation ; and if so, state the name of the allottee or other person from whom the said rig timbers were purchased, and shall also fur- nish any other information the officer in charge may desire relative to the drilling of said well or the procurement of timber used in connection with such opera tion. 50. Wherever notice is provided for in these regulations it shall be sufficient if notice has been mailed to the last-known place of address of the party, and time shall begin to run with the day next ensuing after the mailing or from the date of delivery of personal notice ; but where the party is outside the State of Oklahoma the officer in charge may, in his discretion, increase the time allowed. 51. Lessees are required, when so requested, to file a plat of their leases show- ing exact locations of all producing oil or gas wells, dry holes, proposed loca- tions, tanks, power houses, pumping stations, etc. Such plats should also show locations of dry or producing wells upon the adjoining tracts, so far as known to the lessee. 52. The Osage Nation shall have the right to the free use of gas for all school and other buildings belonging to the Osage Nation from any well or wells that may be discovered: Provided, That no expense shall be incurred by the lessee in piping gas for such purposes, and the lessee shall not be required to pay royalty on such gas. 53. All gas discovered and produced under any lease made in accordance with these regulations shall be utilized within the limits of Osage County, except with the consent of the Osage National Council, approved by the Secretary of the Interior. " OSAGE RESERVATION. 1463 54. Except in cases of emergency which shall not exceed ten (10) days not more than sixty per cent (60%) of the capacity of any gas well shall be utilized. FOBMS. 55. Bids, leases, and other papers must be upon forms prepared by the depart- ment, and the superintendent of the Osage Indian School, Pawhuska, Okla., will furnish prospective lessees with such forms at a cost of one dollar ($1) per set. Copies of such forms are printed herewith. Form A. Bid and application for oil and gas lease, including financial showing Form B. Oil and gas leases. Form O. Bond. Form D. Affidavit of lessee and proof of bonus. Form E. Authority of officers to execute papers. Form F. Assignment. 56. On the failure of any lessee, sublessee, or assignee to comply with any regulation or any obligation in the lease, sublease, or assignment, the Secretary of the Interior may cancel and annul such lease without resorting to the courts and without any further proceeding: Provided, That the party or parties charged with such violation shall be first given not less than thirty (30) days' notice to show cause why such lease should not be canceled and annulled or other order made with reference thereto. These regulations are subject to change or alteration at any time bv the Secretary of the Interior. Department of the Inteeioe, Office of Indian Affairs. The foregoing regulations are respectfully submitted to the Secretary of the Interior with the recommendation that they be approved. F. H. Abbott, Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Department of the Interior, July 3, 1912. Approved. Samuel Adams, First Assistant Secretary. Forms. Form A. — Bid and application for oil and gas mining lease, Osage Reservation. , 191—. The Secretary of the Interior (Through United States Indian Superintendent), Osage Indian Agency, Pawhuska, Okla. The undersigned, hereinafter called the applicant, hereby offers a bonus of $ per acre for a lease for oil and gas mining purposes on designated sub- divisions of tract of Osage Indian lands described as : Subdivision , T. — N., R. — E., as advertised under date of , 191 — . There is inclosed certified check for $ . the same being 10 per cent of the amount of bonus offered plus the advance annual rental of 15 cents per acre for the first year. In event of the acceptance of this bid the applicant hereby agrees to be bound by the conditions and requirements set forth in the regulations pre- scribed for the leasing of said lands, and that on failure of the applicant so to do the amount herewith shall be forfeited to the Osage Nation of Indians, and such forfeiture shall not be a waiver of any right of action the Osage Tribe may have. It is further agreed by the applicant that this bid, if accepted, shall be considered a part of the lease which shall be executed in accordance here- with. The applicant guarantees to pay royalty on a minimum price of 60 cents per barrel on all oil produced. Remarks : . The applicant solemnly swears that the lease, for which bid and application is hereby made, is to be taken in good faith in the interest and for the exclusive benefit of the applicant, and not for speculation or transfer, or as agent for, or in the interest of or for the benefit of any other person, firm, corporation, or 1464 OSAGE RESERVATION. association ; that no other person, firm, corporation, or association has any interest, present or prospective, directly or indirectly, therein, and that there is no understanding or agreement, expressed or implied, by which the land leased, or any interest in or under the lease by working or drilling contract or otherwise, is to be used, sublet, assigned, or transferred, without the consent of the Secre- tary of the Interior first obtained, but that it is to be taken for the purpose of operation and development under the direction, supervision, and control of the applicant, except as herein stated. Affiant solemnly swears that the applicant is not interested, either directly or indirectly, in oil and gas mining leases in that portion of the Osage Reservation to be leased under regulations of July 3, 1912, except with the following-named persons, firms, corporations, or associations, and that the aggregate of all these interests, together with the leases held by the applicant alone, and that applied for herein, will not exceed 25,000 acres : (Name.) (Post-office address.) The applicant hereby states that his general business experience for the past five years has been as follows: . The applicant's financial condition at this time is . The applicant's resources are as follows : , and he has available at least $ for the development of the land for which this application is made. The applicant, a corporation, hereby shows that at this time it has $ — paid-up capital and $ in its treasury available for oil and gas operations. (Note a.) It is hereby agreed that on the issue, transfer, or cancellation of stock of cor- porations, or changes in officers, prompt reports will be made thereof as required by the regulations. The books and accounts of the applicant covering the business to be carried on under the lease, if approved, will be kept at , in the custody of . (References, Note b.) (Post-office address.) Executed this day of . If 1 — , at , . Before me, a notary public in .-Mid f->v th" i-ounty of , State of , personally appeared . who, being first duly sworn according to law, deposes and says that the foregoing bid and application was signed by proper authority in good faith for th»» purposes therein stated, and that the statements made therein are true as he verily believes. rsEAi,.] Notary Public. My commission expires . (a) Corporations shall furnish with their flrit application the additional financial show- in. « lvriuiivrt by the regulations. (b) Bank references are preferred. Foum B.— Oil n,Kl gas mining lease, Osage Reparation, Oklahoma. This indenture of lease made and entered into, in quadruplicate, on this day of , A. D. 10—, by and between the Osage Tribe of Indians, by , its principal chief, uuder authority conferred by the Osage Tribal Council, of the State of Oklahoma, party of the first part, hereinafter design,-, ted as lessor, and of , party of the second part, hereinafter designated as lessee—, under and in pursuance of the pro- visions of section 3 of the act of Congress approved June 28, 1906 (34 Stat, 539, 543), wirnesseth : 1. The lessor, for and in consideration of one dollar, the receipt whereof is acknowledged, and of the royalties, covenants, stipulations, a-nd conditions here- inafter contained, and hereby agreed to be paid, observed, and performed by the lessee—, does hereby demise, grant, lease, and let unto the lessee—, for the term of ten years from the date of the approval hereof by the Secretary of the Interior, and as long thereafter as oil or gas is found in paying quantities, pro- vided, however, that the term of this lease shall not extend beyond April 8, 1931, all the oil deposits and natural gas in or under the following designated subdivisions of land, of tract . lying and being within the Osage Reserva- OSAGE RESERVATION. 1465 tion, O sage County, State of Oklahoma, described as: Subdivision — , T. — N., R. — B. (insert description in full in each case), of the Indian meridian, and containing in the aggregate acres, more or less with the exclusive right to prospect for, extract, pipe, store, and remove oil aud natural gas, and to occupy and use so much only of the surface of said land as may be reasonably necessary to carry on the work of prospecting for, extracting piping storing, and removing such oil and natural gas ; also the right to obtain from wells or other sources on said land, by means of pipe lines or otherwise a suffi- cient supply of water to carry on said operations, and also the right to use free of cost, oil and natural gas as light and fuel so far as necessary to the develop- ment and operation of said property. 2. The lessee— hereby agree— to pay or cause to be paid to the superin- tendent of the Osage Indian School, at Pawhuska, Okla., for the lessor as royalty, 16f per cent of the gross proceeds of all crude oil extracted from 'the said land, such royalty to be paid in money based on the actual market value unless the Osage National Council, with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, shall elect to take the royalty in oil, payment to be made at the time of sale or removal of the oil. It is understood and agreed, however, that should the actual market value of such oil be less than 60 cents per barrel, the lessee guarantee— to pay royalty based on the minimum price of 60 cents per standard barrel. And the lessee — agree — to pay as royalty on each gas-producing well utilized otherwise than as provided herein 16! per cent of the market value of the gas at the well: Provided, That should either the Osage National Council or the Secretary of the Interior be of the opinion that the price at which the lessee — sell — such gas is not the true rmirket value at the well, the Secretary of the Interior shall, after notice and hearing, determine the market value and the lessee — shall account to the lessor at the rate fixed by the Secretary of the Interior as aforesaid. The lessee shall establish meters at expense to measure the supply of gas received from the leased premises, and the account- ing shall be on the basis of the supply as shown by such meter statements. It is understood and agreed by the parties hereto that the standard rock pressure for the sale of gas from this lease shall be two pounds. The Osage Nation shall have the right to the free use of gas for school and public buildings of the Osage Nation from any well or wells that may be discovered on the leased lands : Provided, That no expense shall be incurred by the lessee — in piping gas for such purposes, and the lessee — shall not be required to pay royalty on such gas. Failure on the part of the lessee — to use a gas-producing well, which can not profitably be utilized at the rate herein prescribed, shall not work a for- feiture of this lease so far as the same relates to mining oil, but if the lessee — desires to retain gas-producing rights or privileges, lessee — shall pay a rental of one hundred dollars per annum in advance on each gas-producing well, the gas from which is not marketed or not utilized otherwise than for operations under this lease, and the same shall be credited on gas royalties due and payable, if, during the year for which advance gas royalties are paid lessee — elects to market the gas. 3. The lessee — shall pay to the officer in charge, as advance annual rental on this lease, fifteen cents per acre in advance for the first year; thirty cents per acre in advance for the second year; fifty cents per acre in advance for the third year ; and one dollar per acre per annum, in advance, for the fourth and each succeeding year thereafter, it being understood and agreed that the said sums of money so paid during any year in which royalties on production are payable, shall be a credit on the stipulated royalties due from the lessee — if such royalties on production exceed the.advance annual rental for that year. 4. The lessee — covenant — and agree — to commence to drill at least one well on every leased designated subdivision within ninety days and to complete such well or wells within one year from the date of the approval of this lease by the Secretary of the Interior. After the drilling of a well is commenced the drill- ing operation shall be conducted with due and reasonable diligence until such a well is completed or is drilled to such depth as the oil inspector of the Osage Nation shall deem reasonable. In addition ot forfeiture in the sole discretion of the Secretary of the Interior of the lease for failure to drill and complete the required test well or test wells on each and every designated subdivision as afore- said, within the time provided by this lease and the regulations relating thereto, the lessee— and surety, by reason of the impossibility of accurately deter- mining the amount of damages which will be occasioned the Osage Nation by such default, shall pay to the superintendent of the Osage school for the use 1466 OSAGE RESERVATION. and benefit of the lessor as and for liquidated damages, and not as a penalty, the sum of two thousand dollars ($2,000) for each and every test well required to be drilled and not completed within one year from the date of approval of this lease by the Secretary of the Interior and the execution of this lease shall be conclusive evidence of the assent of lessor and lessee to liquidated damages in the sum of two thousand dollars ($2,000) per well for defaults within the time limit named herein. The lessee — , after having drilled and completed the test wells or wells required to be drilled and completed, may release and sur- render all the land covered by the lease, or any designated subdivision thereof, or such section of six hundred forty acres of any designated subdivision as he may elect on the payment of all rentals and royalties due on the date of such surrender, as provided in paragraph eight of this lease. Should the lessee — elect to hold the lease or any designated subdivision thereof exceeding in area 2.5G0 acres after the period of one year allowed for the drilling of one test well on each designated subdivision has expired, — he— shall drill and complete at least one additional test well on each designated subdivision ex- ceeding in area 2,560 acres within one year from and after the date of expira- tion of the time allowed for the drilling and completion of the first test well, or in default thereof, shall pay to the superintendent of the Osage Indian School for the use and benefit of the Osage Nation by reason of the impossibility of determining the amount of damage which will be occasioned to said nation on account of failure to drill such second test well as aforesaid the sum of two thousand dollars ($2,000), as and for liquidated damages and not as a penalty, for each second test well for which the lessee — may be in default, in addition to any and all other payments required by the regulations and the terms of this lease. Failure on the part of the lessee — to comply strictly with the provisions of this paragraph shall constitute a violation of one of the substantial terms and conditions of this lease and shall operate as a forfeiture of the lessee — rights and subject the lease to cancellation in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, but such forfeiture and cancellation shall not operate to relieve or release the lessee — and surety from the payment of liquidated damages as herein provided for even though the Secretary of the Interior shall, in his dis- cretion, continue the lease in force and effect. .">. The lessee — may use so much of the surface of the land as may be reason- ably necessary for prospecting and mining operations required by this lease and shall also have the right of way over and across such land to any point of prospecting or mining operations, but such use of the surface shall be per- missible only under the condition of least injui'y and inconvenience to the allottee and owner of the land. Lessee, before commencing and during such operations shall pay all reasonable damages for the use of such surface of the land and to any growing crops thereon, or to any improvements on such land or any damages that during the life of this lease shall be occasioned in any manner whatsoever to the allottee or his successor in interest or assignee, or to the lessee of the surface of the land by the use of the surface, such damages to be apportioned among the parties interested in the surface, whether as owners, lessees, or otherwise, as such parties may mutually agree or as their interests may appear : Provided, That when the damages can not be agreed upon between the parties in interest, the amount of such damage shall be determined in ac- cordance with the regulations approved by the Secretary of the Interior. 6. The lessee shall carry on development and operations in a workmanlike manner, commit no waste on the said land, suffer none to be committed upon the portion in occupancy or use, take good care of the same, and promptly surrender and return the premises upon the termination of this lease to whomsoever shall be lawfully entitled thereto, unavoidable casualties ex- cepted; shall not remove therefrom any buildings or permanent improvements erected thereon during the said term by the said lessee-, but said buildings and improvements shall remain a part of said land and become the property of the owner of the surface of the land, excepting the tools, derricks, boilers, boiler houses, pipe lines, pumping and drilling outfits, tanks, engines and machinery, and the casing of all dry or exhausted wells, which shall remain the property of the lessee-, and may be removed at any time within sixty days after the termination of the lease by forfeiture or otherwise, provided the payments agreed upon by this lease and the regulations applicable thereto have been made to the lessor, but not otherwise ; shall not permit any nuisance to be maintained on the premises under lessee-, control, nor allow any intoxicating liquors to be sold or given away for any purposes on such premises ; shall not use such premises for any other purpose than those authorized in this lease: and before abandoning any well shall securely plug the same, so as effectually OSAGE RESERVATION. 1467 to shut off all water from the oil-bearing stratum, as provided in the regula- tions prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior. 7. The lessee- shall keep an accurate account of all oil and gas mining op- erations, showing the sales, prices, dates, purchasers, and the whole amount of oil mined or removed and the quantity of gas sold and the gross receipts derived therefrom, and shall make sworn reports thereof as required by the regulations, and all sums due as royalty, advance rental, liquidated or surface damages shall be a lien on all implements, tools, movable machinery, and all other personal chattels used in operating said property, and upon all of the unsold oil obtained from the land herein leased, as security for payment of said sums. 8. The lessee- may at any time, by paying to the Indian superintendent all amounts then due as provided herein and the further sum of $1, surrender all or any part of the land covered by this lease and have the lease canceled as to the land surrendered and be relieved from all further obligations and liabili- ties thereunder as to the part surrendered : Provided, That in the event the lease is surrendered for cancellation in whole or in part after a new lease year has been entered upon, the lessee- and the surety shall be held liable for the advance rentals required to be paid for that year, and no part of such rentals which may have been paid shall be refunded. 9 This lease shall be subject to the regulations of the Secretary of the In- terior, now or hereafter in force, relative to such leases, all of which regula- tions are made a part and condition of this lease : Provided, That no regula- tions made after the approval of this lease, affecting either the payments or damages thereunder, shall operate to affect the terms and conditions of this 10. Upon the violation of any of the terms and conditions of this lease, the Secretary of the Interior shall have the right at any time after thirty (30) days' notice to the lessee-, specifying the terms or conditions violated, to de- clare this lease null and void. 11. Before this lease shall be in force and effect the lessee- shall furnish a bond with responsible surety to the satisfaction of the Secretary of the In- terior, conditioned for the performance of this lease, which bond shall be deposited and remain on file in the Indian Office. 12. Assignment of this lease or any interest therein may be made with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior and not otherwise. 13. Each and every clause and covenant of this indenture shall extend to the heirs, executors, administrators, successors, and lawful assigns of the parties hereto. In witness whereof the said parties have hereunto subscribed their names and affixed their seals on the day and year first above mentioned. Two witnesses to execution by lessor : . [SEAL.] Post office, • Attest . Post office, • Two witnesses to execution by lessees : . . [SEAL.] Post office, ■ Attest . Post office, ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF PRINCIPAL CHIEF. State of , County of , ss : Before me , on this day of , 19—, personally aDDeared - , to me known to be the principal chief of the Osage Nation, and the identical person who executed the within and foregoing leas? and acknowledged to me that he executed the same as his voluntary act and deed on behalf of the Osage Nation and m accordance with the authority given him by the Osage National Council. (Official title.) 1468 OSAGE RESERVATION. ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF INDIVIDUAL. St^lte of . County of , ss: Before me, a notary public, in and for said county and State, on this day of , 19 — , personally appeared , to me known to be the identical person- who executed the within and foregoing lease, and ac- knowledged to me that executed the same as free and voluntary act and deed for the uses and purposes therein set forth. Notary Public. My commission expires ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF CORPORATION. State of , County of , ss: On this day of , A. D. If* — , before me, a within and for the - — and , aforesaid, personally appeared and to me personally known, who, being by me duly sworn, did each say that is the president and is the secretary of , a corporation, and that the seal affixed to the foregoing and annexed instrument is the corporate seal of said corporation, and that said instrument was signed and sealed in behalf of said corporation by authority of its board of directors; and said and duly ac- knowledged that they each had In their said official capacities executed the foregoing instrument as the act and deed of the said company for the considera- tion and purposes therein mentioned and set forth. Witness my hand and official seal this day of , 19 — . My commission expires . Department of the Interior, U. S. Indian Service, Osage Agency, Paivhuska, Okla., , 19 — . The within lease is forwarded to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs with recommendation that it be . See my report of even date. (Official title.) Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, , 19— Respectfully submitted to the Secretary of the Interior with recommenda- tion that it be . The within lease is Commissioner. Washington, D. O, . 19 — . Secretary of the Interior. Filed for record this day of , 19— at — o'clock — m. By ! Form C. — Bond. (To accompany leases for oil and gas mining purposes, Osage Reservation, Okla.) Know all men by these presents that , of . as principal, ?i n l"7^ ' of ' as suret — ■ are held and firmly bound unto the United States of America in the sum of dollars, lawful money of the United States, for the payment of which, well and truly to be made we bind OSAGE RESERVATION. 1469 ourselves, and each of us, our and each of our heirs, successors executors or administrators, jo.ntly and severally, firmly by these presents eXeClltors> 01 Sealed with our seals and dated this day of 19— The condition of this obligation is such that • ' " ' Whereas the above-bounden . as pi . in cip a i _, entered int0 certain indenture of lease, dated . 19—, with the Osage Tribe of IndiiV for the lease of certain lands described as- S Indians, Subdivision i T. - K, R. - E. (Insert description in full in each case. ) of the Indian meridian, and located in tract in the Osage Reserva- tion, Okla., for oil and gas mining purposes for the period of 10 years from the date of approval thereof by the Secretary of the Interior and as long thereafter as oil and gas are found in paying quantities on said land : Provided, That in no event should the term of said lease extend beyond April S 1931 • aid Whereas the above-bounden did covenant 'and agree in said lease to pay advance rentals annually at the rate of fifteen cents per acre for the first year, thirty cents per acre for the second year, fifty cents per acre for the third year, and one dollar per acre per annum for the fourth and each suc- ceeding year during the life of said lease, and to pay royalties on production at the rate of sixteen and two-thirds per cent of the gross proceeds of all oil produced from the leased premises based on the actual market value, but not in any event to be less than sixty cents per standard barrel and sixteen and two-thirds per cent of the market value at the well of all gas sold or utilized other than for operations under the lease ; and Whereas the above-bounden did covenant and agree in said lease to drill and complete one test well on each designated subdivision covered by said lease within one year from the date of approval of the lease by the Secretary of the Interior, or in default thereof, to pay to the Osage Nation as liquidated damages and not as a penalty the sum of two thousand dollars ($2,000) for each and every test well not drilled and completed within one year after the date of the approval of the lease as aforesaid and the same sum for failure to drill a second test well within two years on any retained subdivision exceeding 2,560 acres in extent; and Whereas the above-bounden did covenant to pay all reasonable damages for the use of the surface of the land and to any improvements and growing crops thereon in accordance with the terms of said lease and the regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior ; Now, therefore, if the above-bounden shall faithfully carry out and observe all the obligations assumed in said indenture of lease by , shall pay all rentals and royalties as the same may become due, shall pay liquidated damages on failure to drill the test well or test wells as required by said lease, shall pay all damage to the surface of the land or to any growing crops or im- provements thereon caused by prospecting and mining operations, and shall observe all the laws of the United States, and regulations made, or which shall be made thereunder, for the government of trade and intercourse with Indian tribes, and all the rules and regulations that have been, or may be lawfully prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior relative to leases on lands in the- Osage Reservation, Oklahoma, then this obligation shall be null and void; otherwise to remain in full force and effect. Signed and sealed in the presence of — Witnesses : * Post office [ seal. 1 Post office - Post office [ SEAL - 1 Post office - Post office [ SEAL - 1 Post office - "Two witnesses to all signatures. 35601— pt 12—14 6 1470 OSAGE RESERVATION. Form D.— Affidavit of lessee, proof of bonus, and n» development. (Must in all cases be properly executed and accompany lease when filed.) State of . County of . ss: I j of , being first duly sworn according to law, state upon oath flint I am the lessee or the duly authorized agent of the lessee in a lease between the Osage Tribe of Indians and , for mining purposes covering the following described land in the Osage Reservation, Okla- homa : that I know of my own personal knowledge that the lessee is not engaged in the transportation of oil except as incidental to any refining or production of oil by lessee: that the only amount to be paid for the execution of said lease, directly or indirectly, by the lessee to . or any one for him, is $ .' of which $ has been paid to , and f land near Shawnee, Okla. These Mexican Kickapoos are now in Coahuila, which is about 125 miles southwest from Eagle Pass, Tex., said Eagle Pass being opposite Diaz, Mexico. They report these 3S Kickapoo allottees to be in very bad condition. The Indians living in Coahuila are very desirous of having whatever lease money is due them paid to them without delay. It has been reported that it is difficult to reach Coahuila from Eagle Pass. This is not the case, since the trains are running quite regularly and there is no difficulty in going back and forth. I returned myself from Coahuila and reached Shawnee, Okla., on April 1 with the nine of the allottees who have been living in Coahuila. These 38 Mexican Kickapoo Indians who have lived in Coahuila represent and claim that they have only received $50 each out of the payment o!f $215,000. which was appropriated for settlement of the Mexican Kickapoo claims April 30, 1906, and they also represent that each member of the tribe, as they believe, is entitled to about $1,100, as their per capita share out of said appropriation of $215,000, and they desire the help of the Government of the United States to secure this money from the parties who have it in charge, whom they believe to be Martin J. Bentley, W. S. Field, and Okema, who is a member of the Mexican Kickapoo Tribe residing in the State of Sonora, Mexico. We also desire the .committee of Congress and the Indian Office to investigate the payments made out of said appropriation of $215,000 to the Kickapoo In- dians residing in the State of Sonora, to see if they have been fairly dealt with and all of their moneys paid to them by said Bentley, Field, and Okema. We understand that there was an appropriation of $15,000 for the benefit of the Mexican Kickapoo in Mexico in the latter part of the year 1912 The Kickapoos in Coahuila state that they have received no portion whatever of this $15,000 appropriation, and knew nothing about the appropriation being made until I informed them on my recent, visit to Coahuila. Thev now ask that they be paid their share of this money. These allottees, numbering about 38 in all, holding valuable lands in Okla- homa, who have been living in Coahuila, Mexico, insist that the United States shall protect them fully in all their rights to the lands in Oklahoma and the rents and profits derived therefrom, and to procure for them their rights to their share of the $215,000 appropriation made by Congress and the subsequent appropriation of $15,000 which I have mentioned before. These Kickapoos tell me that they lesire that Martin J. Bentlev and W. S. 1; leld, or any other person, shall have nothing more to do with their lands or funds, but that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall have full control of the same for their benefit. It is understood that a company was organized to control the $215,000 appro- priation referred to, and that the chief persons in control of this organization were W. S. Field, together with O. A. Mitscher, formerly agent of the Osage KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1483 Indians in Oklahoma, together, possibly, with Martin J. Bentley and others unknown to us. It is our desire that this organization, or any other person or persons, as above stated, shall exercise no control of our property, but that the full control of our moneys and lands shall be exercised by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, at Washington. These Indians complain also that the American consul, who is located at Diaz, has urged the Mexican Kickapoos residing in Coahuila to return to Sonora, where they were formerly located, and stated to them that they would get no further aid nor money if they did not remove from Coahuila to Sonora. The tribe living in Coahuila state that under no conditions will they return to Sonora, which is 700 miles west of Coahuila ; that they were not treated right while they formerly lived in Sonora ; that the land is of very poor qual- ity and they can not make a living there, and expect to continue to live in Coahuila. The foregoing statement made by Joseph Murdock, a member of our tribe of Mexican Kickapoo Indians, has been interpreted to us and we fully agree in the statements made by him therein. Ah-kis-icuck (his X mark). Wah-na-ke-tha (his X mark). I certify that I have fully and correctly interpreted the foregoing statement as made by me to Ah-kis-kuck and Wah-na-ke-tha, and that they say the state- ments made therein by me are true to the best of their knowledge and belief, nnd represent their wishes in the matter. Joseph Murdoch:. The Chairman. Did he ever answer my question about when he left Sonora and why he left there ? Wah-nah-ke-tha. About two years ago. The Chairman. If I understand you correctly, what you and the nther representatives of vour tribe who are here desire is an account- ing of these two funds" of $215,000 appropriated in 1908 and of $15,000 appropriated in 1912, and you think it is under the control of the parties whose names you have mentioned? Wah-nah-ke-tha. Yes, sir ; that is what we came here for. The Chairman. And you also desire that it be taken out of the hands of the present trustee and administered by the Government direct? Ask him that question. Wah-nah-ke-tha. That is what we came here for — to have the commissioner or the Government protect our rights ; to handle it any way they want. , The Chairman. Do you know how that $215,000 fund has been expended ? Wah-nah-ke-tha. No, sir ; I do not. The Chairman. What effort have you made to find out i Wah-nah-ke-tha. That is what I come here for to the commis- sioner, to have him investigate it — that fund. The Chairman. Have you received any moneys since you have been living in Coahuila from either of these two funds? Wah-nah-ke-tha. No, sir. _ The Chairman. Have you an allotment in Oklahoma 5 Wah-nah-ke-tha. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you get any rent from that allotment ? Wah-nah-ke-tha. No, sir. The Chairman. Have you received any rent or lease money irom your allotment since you went to Mexico ? Wah-nah-ke-tha. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you still own your allotment up there? 1484 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Wah-xaii-ke-tha. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who is using it? Who is on it? Wah-nah-ke-tha. I don't know who is using it. I don't get the benefit of it the last several years. The Churman. Ask him how long it has been since he got some benefit out of it. Wah-naii-ke-tha. That is about 10 years. TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH MURDOCK. Senator Townsend. Do you live in Oklahoma ? Mr. Murdoch. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Have you been down there at Muzquiz? Mr. Murdoch:. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Do you know anything about the conditions down there? Mr. Murdoch. Of course; I was down there, you know. Senator Townsend. How long were you down there? Mr. Murdoch. About two weeks. Senator Townsend. When? Mr. Murdoch. I got back to Shawnee the 1st of April. Senator Townsend. Is that the only time you have been down there? Mr. Murdoch. I was there before. Senator Townsend. Do you know anything about these matters that these men have been talking about ? Mr. Murdoch. Not very much; just what they tell me. Senator Lane. What do you know about his allotment up in Okla- homa? Do you know where it is? Mr. Murdoch. I can state it as near as I know about these allot- ments. Senator Lane. This man's allotment? Mr. Murdoch. Yes, sir. There was an act of Congress, in 1906 I think it was, to have the Kickapoos — to have their restrictions re- moved ; at least one - of them and several others ; I can't recall their names. It seems that that time they claimed a fellow named Chap- man deeded these lands. The Chairman. Had a deed from him to these lands? Mr. Murdoch. And since that time, you know, they don't get any rent out of it. Senator Lane. Did he sell it to Chapman ? Mr. Murdoch. No; I don't think so. He claimed he did not sign any deed. Senator Lane. Somebody took it away from him? Is that what he means ? Mr. Murdoch. Yes; that is what he told me, you know. Of course I been here to interpret for the other Indians. He hired a lawyer to get these lands for him. Senator Lane. Did he get it back? Mr. Murdoch. He got it back all right. Senator Lane. This man then has his lands back again, has he? Mr. Murdoch. Yes. Senator Lane. What kind of land is it? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1485 to kU ^ UED ° CK - Jt is just ri S ht in between, you know. They tried Senator Lane. Is it worth anything? Mr. Muedock. These lawyers tried to get $40,000 for it and thev only offered $15,000. They wanted to get $40,000 for it ' Y Senator Lane. Are there any houses built on it« Mr. Murdock. They built a Catholic church right on the southeast OMahoSat IEMAN ' Dkl y ° 11 * V6r make a deed to your allotment in Wah-nah-ke-tha. No, sir. The Chairman. Did you bring a suit about it through your law- yer ? ° J Wah-nah-ke-tha. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And you won your land back ? Wah-nah-ke-tha. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And you still own that land ? Wah-nah-ke-tha. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What was the name of that man who turned up claiming that he had a deed from you ? Mr. Murdock. He says Chapman. He don't say it plain, you know. The Chairman. What is the name and address of his attorney in that case ? This man's attorney ? Wah-nah-ke-tha. His name is Mark Goode. The Chairman. Where does he live? Wah-nah-ke-tha. In Shawnee. The Chairman (addressing Mr. Layne, of the Indian Office). Have you a record in your office of this particular case ? Mr. Layne. I think the record will show something about it. The Chairman. Will you look through the record and send down here at your earliest convenience whatever you can find in the record ? Mr. Layne. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What I am interested in is finding out why, if he has land in town of the value of several thousand dollars, he gets no income from it. Mr. Bentley. His nan:e was deliberately forged to a deed. They filed a deed of record and took possession of the land and put him out of it and then litigated it. But in that locality they are so desperately against the Indians that notwithstanding he got judgment against the man for $15,000 the land was put up and sold. Of course he bought it in and gave his attorney a third of it for recovering it. The Chairman. What was the basis of the judgment? Mr. Bentley. The man who forged his name to the deed also forged it to a contract wherein he was to recover the land for him when it had not been taken away from him even, and for that service The Chairman. The court found it was a forgery, did it ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; witnesses came up from Muzquiz who, it was proved, had forged other deeds; but notwithstanding the testi- mony to my mind was clear, the court turned him down and decreed the land to the other man. Senator Lane. Does he own any part of it now ? 35601— pt 13—14 2 1486 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Beatlev. Jso, sir; I do not think so. I do not know just what the status of it is, but I think he has been figured out of it. The Chairman. They sold his land to satisfy the creditor, and the judgment creditor bought the land in, and he still thinks he owns the land. If he is under that impression, I think that investigation can proceed without further delaying this hearing. Did you get any money out of this $215,000 or out of this $15,000? Wah-nah-ke-tha. I received $50 out of that $215,000. The Chairman. When did he get that and who paid it to him? Wah-nah-ke-tha. Bentley. The Chairman. When did he pay it to him, and where ? Wah-nah-ke-tha. About five or six years ago. The Chairman. Where was he when Bentley paid him this $50? Waii-nah-ke-tiia. At Tomechopo. Representative Burke. How much money did it cost you to come up here to Washington on this trip ? Wah-nah-ke-tha. Not over $30 for fare. Representative Burke. Who gave you the money to come here? Wah-nah-ke-tha. We got this from the Indian tribe. Representative Burke. That is, the other Indians contributed to raise the money to pay- the expenses of these two? Mr. Murdoch. Yes. Representative Burke. Now, I want to ask you a question. Did they come from Muzquiz with you when you came ? Mr. Murdoch. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. How many more came? Mr. Murdoch. There was about nine altogether, you know ; that is, allottees. Representative Burke. The other seven stopped in Oklahoma ? Mr. Murdoch. They were there when we left. Representative Burke. What did you go down to Mexico for? Mr. Murdoch. Just on a visit. Representative Burke. Did you ask these people to come with you ? Mr. Murdoch. No, sir ; I never asked them. Representative Burke. Did they have a conference or council while you were there ? Mr. Murdoch. I just heard they had a council, but I did not go over there. Representative Burke. You do not know anything about that ? Mr. Murdoch. No, sir. Representative Burke. When did you first find out these two men were coming to Washington? Mr. Murdoch. Just about the day before I left I heard they were sending these two men to come up here to Washington. Representative Burke. Were you coming to Washington on your own account at this time ? Mr. Murdock. On this trip ? Representative Burke. Yes; were. you coming to Washington? How did you happen to come to Washington ? Mr. Murdoch. Oh, they wanted me to come here to interpret for them. Representative Burke. When did they ask you, and where? Mr. Murdoch. At the time they had a council over in Old Mexico. Representative Burke. You were there at the council ? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1487 ^l^T^ N ° ; J -Y aS n0t there - * was not over there a t the time they had the council. Representative Burke. How did they ask you to come at that time, if you were not there ? ' Mr - ^kdock They sent this man here [indicating]. They told me, 'AH these Indians want to have you to interpret" for us up to Washington." That is before I know it. P Representative Burke. And wanted you to come? Mr. Murdoch. They wanted me to interpret for them here? PreSentatlVe BuRKE - And did the ^ P a ^ y° ur ex Penses to come Mr. Murdoch:. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. From Mexico or from Oklahoma? Mr. Murdock. From Oklahoma. Representative Burke. Did they pay you anything more than your expenses? Mr. Murdock. No, sir. I didn't ask. Representative Burke. You are not related to these men, are you ? Mr. Murdock (indicating Ah-kis-kuck). This here is my half brother right, here. Representative Burke. Is he any relation of this one over here? Mr. Murdock. No, sir. Representative Burke. Do you have any information— I know you have not— as to how this $15,000 has been expended ? Have vou looked it up? Mr. Murdock. Their share? Representative Burke. Nothing about their share. There was $15,000 appropriated by the act of 1912, directed to be paid to the treasurer of the Kickapoo Community of Mexico, a corporation to be organized under the laws of the State of Arizona. Have you looked it up to see how that money was expended ? Mr. Murdock. No, sir; I have not. Representative Burke. You do not know whether it has been paid" out or not ? Mr. Murdock. No, sir. Representative Stephens. You know they had a large body of land down there in Sonora, don't you, at Tomechopo, on the Yaqui River? Mr. Murdock. Yes, sir ; I was out there. Representative Stephens. How long did you stay down there? Mr. Murdock. I was out there two or three days. Representative Stephens. How long did you remain when you were there? Mr. Murdock. Two or three days. Representative Stephens. Who sent you down there, or what did you go for? Mr. Murdock. Mr. Thackery — Frank A. Thackery, the Indian agent. Representative Stephens. At what place ? At Shawnee ? Mr. Murdock. At Shawnee, Okla. Representative Stephens. He sent you down there to try to get part of those Mexican Kickapoo Indians out of Mexico ? Mr. Murdock. No, sir; they just sent me over there to tell these Indians to meet him at Douglas, Ariz., to pay their lease money. 1488 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Representative Stephens. Did not some of them go back to Okla- homa and leave Mexico ? . . Mr. Murdock. AVe have been going back and forth to visit each other. Representative Stephens. How did these Indians come to go back to Muzquiz? Mr. Murdock. I don't know. Representative Stephens. How many of them went back to Muz- quiz from Sonora? Mr. Murdock. I don't know. Representative Stephens. These two did, didn't they? Mr. Muedock. I think they told here how many of them left, but I don't remember. Representative Stephens. You were not with them when they went back? Mr. Murdock. No, sir. Representative Stephens. They don't own any land at Muzquiz, do they — in Coahuila? Mr. Murdock. I don't know whether they have or not. Representative Stephens. They have an interest, and so have you, in Sonora ? Mr. Murdock. No, sir; I have nothing to do with that. Representative Stephens. These two men have, haven't they ? Mr. Murdock. Not that I know of ; I don't know whether they have any interest in that land or not. Representative Stephens. You have never gone to the Mexican Kickapoos ? Mr. Murdock. No, sir ; none whatever. Representative Stephens. You are an Oklahoma Kickapoo? Mr. Murdock. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. AAHiat kind of country is that down in Coahuila ? Mr. Murdoch. Pretty good land, in the valley. Senator Lane. They farm clown there, do they ? Mr. Murdock. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. The Indians down there make a living by farming? Mr. Murdock. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. Have you seen the land about Sonora ? Mr. Murdock. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. Have you seen the land where the Kicka- poos are living there in Sonora? Mr. Murdock. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. How does the land compare there with the land where these Indians are now located ? Mr. Murdoch. Well, it is about 80 acres of it — that is. farming land. That is all that was in there. Of course I have been over it, you know. There was about 25 or 30 families, you know. They had only about as long as this building, 10 or 12 rows; each family — some of them, you know. There are so many of them they can't farm very much. Representative Burke. AVhat kind of land is it? Mr. Murdock. Pretty fair land ; just 80 acres of it. Representative Burke. Is that the land Mr. Bentley purchased for these Indians, or is said to have purchased for them ? Mr. Murdock. I don't know. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1489 landTlwn L fn N MeS ? PayS ° Ut ** ^ *" *« ™^ ° f the Mr. Muedock. I don't know anything about that. Representative Stephens. Do you know John Gostin« Mr. Muedock. Yes, sir. Sonora? SentatiVe S ™ PHENS - Isn,t he in char §" e of those Indians in Mr. Muhdock. No, sir; I don't know anything about that. Representative Stephens. You only stayed there two or three days at a time and were there three or four times? You were sent down there by Mr. Thackery ? Mr. Muedock. Yes," sir. Representative Stephens. Mr. Buntyn is the ao-ent now« Mr Thackery is not there at Shawnee? Mr. Muedock. Mr. Thackery is not there now. Representative Stephens. Mr. Buntyn is the agent at present? Mr. Muedock. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Did he authorize vou to come up here with these two Indians? Mr. Muedock. No, sir. Representative Stephens. How did you happen to come, then ? Mr. Muedock. The whole tribe; they held their council, you know. They decided for me to interpret for them up here with 'these two men. Representative Stephens. That council was held in Mexico, as you stated? Mr. Muedock. Yes, sir. TESTIMONY OF MARTIN J. BENTLEY. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You may state your name, residence, and occupa- tion. Mr. Bentley. Martin J. Bentley, Shawnee, Okla. ; by profession I am an attorney. The Chairman. Mr. Bentley, it appears that in 1908 appropria- tion was made by Congress of $215,000 to carry out certain treaty provisions with the Kickapoo Indians, and that legislation directed that this sum should be paid by the Secretary of the Treasury as authorized and directed by a majority of the members of the Mexi- can Kickapoo Tribe in their council assembled. Subsequently, on August 24, 1912, another appropriation of $15,000 was made to be expended in the payment of taxes, salary of farmers, maintenance and repair of irrigation ditches, indebtedness for supplies already furnished, court costs, and obligations heretofore incurred in settle- ment of land titles, said sums to be paid to the treasurer of a cor- poration to be known as the Kickapoo Community of Mexico, to be organized under the laws of the State of Arizona. The organization of such corporation was required to be authorized by a majority of the members of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians residing in the State of Sonora, in the Republic of Mexico, in council assembled. I want to ask you what knowledge you have, first, of the $215,000 fund and what disposition has been made of it? 1490 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentley. I will try to answer you briefly, but it takes a good deal of detail to explain. Of the $215,000 I drew $86,276.94 and some odd cents, and that fund I am entirely accountable for. While I had a cotrustee — an Indian, a man that did not read or write — the whole responsibility for the disbursement of that sum rested upon me. The Kickapoo Indians at that time were heavily in debt. I had supported them in the desert. I had moved them a thousand miles across the desert country, covering a period from May 6, 1907, to November 8 of that year, coming through those deserts. I fed them all that distance. I wintered them there in the desert. I borrowed money from anybody and everybody I could, even on this side, to keep them alive there. It was a very expensive place to winter. These debts had accrued. I had financed them some $10,000 of my own money. That element of the tribe who made me their trustee elected to remain in Mexico, and immediately following that I proceeded into the interior of Mexico and negotiated for a home for them, moved them to this locality, and there I bought and paid for and took abso- lute title to a piece of country about C>\ miles square, said to contain about 30,000 acres of land. Representative Stephens. Was it on a stream ? Mr. Bentley. On the headwaters of the Yaqui River, a great big lasting mountain stream; and in the center of this reservation is a large basin — probably as fine land as I know of anywhere in the world. Representative Stephens. How far is it from Bacerac? Mr. Bentley. Six miles. It is the same valley extended, only a much wider country than at Bacerac. After acquiring the land, the next thing was to provide water. This is a country where agriculture is not successful without irriga- tion. I employed an engineer, made a careful survey, planned a system of irrigation, and completed it. That required about four months' time, and a good deal of that time I employed as many as 70 Mexicans. The ditch was completed, and it is there to-dav. 'and it will irrigate about 600 acres of land at this time, and there is where the Kickapoos raise their living. The Chairman. When did you first become connected with this tribe of Indians? Mr. Bentley. Away back in 1892 or 1893. The Chairman. What amount of money did the tribe owe vou when this appropriation of $215,000 was made? Mr. Bentley. About $10,000. _ The Chairman. Of what did that consist and what evidences of indebtedness did you have? Mr. Bent-ley. Well, there had been an investigation by a subcom- mittee of the Senate into the whole affairs of the Kickapoos, and my account is filed there. That was just prior to receiving this appropriation, a few months before. At that time my accounts submitted to them, examined by them, and, I think, approved by them, showed that there was $8,060 at that time clue me from the tribe. That was prior to the appropriation, and of course, the expense of maintaining the Indians and continuing their care went on. Probably it was about $10,000 when I received that money. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 14:91 The Chairman. Have you any way of ascertaining lust what thev dld owe you at the time you received this money « J Mr. Bentley. It would be approximately $10,000. I submitted to the committee since a carefully itemized accounting. Ine Chairman The Committee on Indian Affairs of the Senate? *h. no: they came from right near here and worked their way west. Thev were American Indians, but probably as early as 1700 those Kick a poos were living in Mexico, as did the Shawnees. The Shawnee-, hack as far as 1750, made pilgrimages to where Mexico City now is. In Chihuahua there are the old ruins left by the Shaw- nees that were there. Many of them were born in Mexico. Inspector Zevely — who,' I think, is considered among the very reliable inspectors' — says in his reports, as late as about 1898, that the Kickapoo Indians had been nomadic up to the time I took charge of them. Thev had been wanderers on the face of the earth. Even there on that little reservation they lived in one place in the summer and another place in the winter. They had no fixed place of abode; they were wanderer?. Inspector Zevely, who was a special inspector of the Interior Department, was sent to Oklahoma to report to the Secretary of the Interior the progress that the Kickapoo Indians in my charge were making. Mr. Brosius had reported to the Govern- ment over his own signature that I was driving these Indians off their allotments, discouraging them, and had gotten them into a state of disaffection. After that report I wrote to Commissioner Jones, and I asked Mr. Field, who was then attorney for the Indians, to see if there was not some other person, somebody in the service of the United States who had the confidence of the department, who would come and investigate. Because, gentlemen, at that time, I say to you as men in all sin- cerity, that "what the Government of the United States had always sought to do for the Indians I was doing. I was bending every energy of my life, and I was a strong man then. I had these Indians at work on 'their land. They were building fences, digging wells, planting orchards. They were drifting in the direction that it is always claimed the Government wanted them to do. And not with- standing these growing orchards, these wheat fields, and these splen- did homes, here was the agent of the Indian Eights Association re- porting the opposite of that, sending to the Secretary of the Interior forged council proceedings with 30 or 40 i Indians' names to it, and it is in that report [indicating the Senate hearings of 1907] that no Indian whose name was said to be signed to it ever saw it. I was being charged with those things by this agent of the Indian Bights Association. Inspector Beede, who is well known to every- body in the department, the oldest inspector in the service, investi- gated every one of Mr. Brosius's charges, and he said that he found I was doing a grand work among those Indians. He found that I was honest with them ; that I was diligent, and that I was accomplish- ing the things that the Government sought to do. Still Mr. Brosius persisted that nothing was being accomplished; that my office ought to be abolished: and, finally, so much confusion grew out of it that the Secretary of the Interior did not send an ordinary inspector. Mr. Zevely is a lawyer and a big man, and, I believe, an honest man. And [addressing Mr. Brosius] in the face of your charges that I was driving those Indians off their allotments, when you well knew that not one of them who was not a kicker lived upon his allotment prior to my appointment Mr. Brosius. I do not recollect that statement. Mr. Bentley. T have a perfect right to make it. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1511 The Chairman. You may go ahead and make your statement. You need not make any personal reflections. Mr. Bentley. Pardon me if I have digressed. Mr. Zevely reported as follows: When Mr. Bentley took charge of these bands about four years ago none of them were on allotments and none of them were improving lands. They were in a primitive state and still pursuing their nomadic habits. I have driven over the Kickapoo Reservation and I find a great many of them with improvements of their own, having their allotments fenced with good wire fences, which have been built by the Indians themselves, and nearly every one of them cultivating their own farms. In driving over the reservation I came in contact with many of these Indians who were in their fields plowing and otherwise prepar- ing the soil for seed. As far as I could determine, they seemed to be indus- trious and anxious to progress in their work. The farmer, Mr. Clark, advises me that he has little trouble with them, and -that they are all anxious to make progress in the matter of tilling their lands. Inquiry from many of the leading citizens of Shawnee develops the fact that Mr. Bentley has great influ- ence with these Indians, and has succeeded to a remarkable degree in inducing them to go to their allotments and make homes for themselves. I think Mr. Bentley's usefulness to the Kickapoos has been very great. He seems to take a deep interest in their welfare, and has probably been successful beyond what any other man would have been with the Kickapoos. (P. 1661, Senate hear- ings of 1907.) The Chairman. When was that report made? Mr. Bentley. I think it was 1898. The Chairman. Does not the document you are reading from show the date of it ? Mr. Bentley. I think it does. It is a quotation from the records there. It will be found on page 1661 of the Affairs of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians, Senate Document 215, Sixtieth Congress, first session The Chairman. Were you down there when Mr. Zevely visted the Kickapoo Indians and made that investigation upon which his report is based? Mr. Bentley. I think I was. The Chairman. Did you see him ? Mr. Bentley. I saw Mr. Zevely the day that he left Shawnee. The Chairman. Did you see him while he was making the investi- gation, while he was going over the Kickapoo lands? Mr. Bentley. Only one time. The day that Mr. Zevely left he sent for me and I went to the hotel, and he told me that he had practically concluded his investigation. He had been there a week. But he said that he might overlook something that I would want him to have seen, and it was only fair to me that I be given an opportunity to show him anything. . . The Chairman. Did you show him anything ! Mr Bentley. I drove him that day 22 miles, I think, or about 20 miles,' and showed him different things that he had not seen, and explained to him my policy and what I expected to accomplish The Chairman. Did he tell you what he was going to report* Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I had not any idea in the wo rid, except^ this . When I drove him to the train-he took the tram at McLoud Okla I think Anyway. I did not drive him back to Shawnee. And I said toMnT "Now, Mr. Zevely, you have seen for yourself and I have Efedto show you what I am doing here. I hope if you can suggest 1512 KICKAPOO INDIANS. any better plan that you will do it. I am here wanting to do the best I can for the Indians." Eepresentative Carter. Was this while you were agent ( Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Mr. Brositjs. Might I ask the date of that letter i Senator Townsend. April 17, 1900. Mr. Brosius. I mean the letter that I wrote. The Chairman. Can you give him the date of the letter you re- ferred to as having been written by Mr. Brosius ? . Mr. Brosius. He spoke of Mr. Zevely having been down there in Representative Burke. Did you mean 1908 or 1898? Mr. Bentley. 1898. Eepresentative Burke. It was 1900 then? Mr. Bentley. It was Mr. Beede that was there then. The Chairman. It was in 1900, then, instead of 1908? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; and it was the other inspector, Mr. Beede, who was there. Mr. Brosius. Inspector Zevely, then, had nothing to do with the report I made? Mr. Bentley. I think the investigation grew out of your charges. Mr. Beede investigated the charges by Mr. Brosius, which are very lengthy, and reported. It was persisted by some that Mr. Brosius's report was still true, and the Secretary of the Interior was disposed, even with Mr. Beede's report, to feel that there was some mistake. Then he sent another inspector Eepresentative Carter. When was Mr. Brosius's report made? Mr. Bentley. I will find it in a moment. Eepresentative Burke. The Zevely report was made entirely with reference to the misappropriation of some checks, was it not? Mr. Bentley. I do not think so, but I am not sure. As I under- stood it, he was sent there to see what progress the Kickapoos were making. He may have had something else ■ Eepresentative Burke. Just to refresh your memory [reading] : This investigation was occasioned by report made by Inspector Nesler made some time in 1897 or 1S08, in which he detailed a rumor which had come to his ears while at Shawnee, in Oklahoma, to the effect that Martin J. Bentley, now acting Indian agent for the Kickapoos, and W. S Field had, by false represen- tations made to the Indians, secured practically all of the checks issued at that payment. (P. 1661, Senate hearings of 1907.) That was what he was investigating. Mr. Bentley. I did not know that at the time, or I had forgot- ten. I had nothing to do with any such payment. The Chairman. Then the letter to which he refers was probably of date September 8, 1898. Mr. Brosius. Then, from the conversation we have had since, you will admit Mr. Zevely had nothing to do with reporting on the charges I made? Mr. Bentley. I suppose, as I have stated, the Beede report — there was a deadly parallel between your report and the Beede re- port. Mr. Beede investigated your charges, and there was a conten- tion that he might have been mistaken. There seemed to be still some lingering doubt Eepresentative Carter. Who was the contention by? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1513 Mr. Bentley. It was in the department when I came here and reported — the employees and in a general way Representative Carter. You do not know of any specific person that made that contention? Mr. Bentley. The Indian Office officials Representative Carter. That is not very specific. Mr. Bentley. Mr. Tonner. Representative Burke. In order to keep the record straight, the report that Mr. Beede made October 3, 1898, addressed to the Secre- tary of the Interior, says : Referring to your letter of the 10th of September last, transmitting letters from S. M. Brosius, making certain charges against Assistant Special Agent M. J. Bentley, of the Sac and Fox Agency, supporting the same by affidavits, you ask that I make a very careful and thorough investigation of the charges made by Mr. Brosius, and also investigate Mr. Bentley's manner of performing his official duties, generally and in detail. (Senate Hearings of 1907, p. 2039.) Mr. Bentley. Of course, I am free to say that the investigation by Mr. Zevely may not have come directly from the Brosius charges, but it may have had some effect. Mr. Brosius. Ten years afterwards? Mr. Bentley. Oh, two years. Mr. Brosius. I thought you said 1908. Representative Burke. He has corrected that. Senator Townsend. That is not material, anyway, that I can see. Mr. Bentley. I do feel that I am entitled to read a little of that report of Mr. Beede's, since there is a positive parallel drawn here. This man reported one thing and the investigating officer reports squarely opposite. The Chairman. The particular subject matter of this investiga- tion is the administration of that fund of $215,000. Mr. Bentley. That is true. The Chairman. While I do not want to deprive you of the privi- lege of stating anything you feel you ought to state in connection with it, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that we should like to get down to the particular subject as soon as possible. Mr. Brosius. May I say a word here before the witness commences reading? If this report 'is read, then I shall ask to have inserted in the record certain other reports that are opposed to Mr. Bentley's report, Inspector Nesler's report, Inspector McComas's report, and, I think, one or two more. Senator Townsend. You are going to be heard on that, are you not, Mr. Brosius? Mr. Brosius. I do not suppose- 1 shall have much to say. Representative Burke. There seem to have been three volumes of testimony taken when we went into this subject that Mr. Bentley has talked about thus far on the hearings before a Senate subcommittee that visited Oklahoma, Now, if we are going to go into that again we ought to go at it systematically, and I understand that it is not your intention to do so. What we are after is the $215,000 appro- priation and what became of it, is it not, Mr. Chairman? The Chairman. Yes. . Representative Burke. And this statement he is making is pre- liminary to what he is going to tell us about that? 1514 KICKAPOO INDIANS. The Chairman. That is my understanding. He stated in the be- ginning he would make a preliminary statement. " Represent ative Burke. So if he wants to put something in from the Beede report, I do not know that there is any objection. Mr. Bexti.ey. I desire to state at this time that the reason that I have reverted to the various charges and the Beede report is that it is a charge filed before this joint commission at this time by Mr. Brosius that is the occasion of this hearing. I am charged with ex- ploiting the Kickapoo Indians and doing numerous disreputable things in connection with them. Therefore I feel it proper that I should call to the notice of the committee the fact that there had been a long, persistent prejudice and fight and opposition to me by Mr. Brosius. Surely he was not my friend, or he would not have brought these charges here. I am certain that he is not a friend to the Indians from his acts in the past. I have been opposed by him all these years in everything I did. But for that reason I snould not have taken up the time of this committee to refer to Mr. Brosius. Mr. Beede, in concluding his report to the Secretary of the Interior, says, in reference to the charges brought by Mr. Brosius (Affairs of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians, vol. 3, p. 2C42) : I have thus goue through with the testimony actually taken in Mr. Bentley's case, but may say that numbers of men that I believe bear good reputations have stood ready and evinced a willingness to testify to Mr. Bentley's integrity and efficiency, as well as absolute devotion to his wards. If an Indian is in trouble, he goes to the rescue. He furnishes his own means of transportation; has, I am told, worn out one buggy in the service ; he furnishes his own office by securing a desk in an office of a generous man of the town. He can not be with the Indians and also attend to the clerical work of the office. He employs an Indian clerk at his own expense, and. what is peculiar about him, he em- ploys one of his enemies, who gave testimony sustaining the charges of Mr. Brosius, as his confidential clerk. (He carries his office papers in his satchel to and from home every day.) I called upon his clerk to testify, and his testi- mony appears on page 15. I have been over the lands and observed them along the road as much as I felt that my time would permit. In one inclosure of Kicking Kickapoos I find a good pasture located close to town, where the stock of the townspeople is pastured at a certain price per head. In another is cultivated ground; in another is a hayfield, with large stacks of hay ready for market; in one close by town is a race course and fair ground leased by the Indian; also, the circus managers desiring to show in Shawnee must pay tribute to a Kicking Kickapoo for a place to hold forth near town. I have myself seen these Indians in town during my short stay with wagons loaded, or partly loaded, with something to sell. I believe Mr. Bentley to be very particular that the lease money goes into the hands of the Indians, and that, -while he goes personal security for the payment of purchases made by the Indians, he will not even retain the money of the Indians when in his hands to secure himself. It may, with a good deal of propriety, be asked, Why will Mr. Bentley so interest himself on the behalf of those Indians on a salary of $1,200? I be- lieve this question can only be answered, so far as anything has come under my observation, that in the better sense of the term he is an Indian "crank"; and my impression now is decidedly that he should not be interfered with by the Sac and Fox agent in any wise; that his employees should be absolutely under his own control and paid by himself. To illustrate: The Sac and Fox agent, employing the fanner and detailing him for Mr. Bentley's use, can exer- cise an influence over him very prejudicial to Mr. Bentley's management. He can call him away at pleasure, as he has done now, probably to settle with him at the close of the quarter; but it should take but two days for this, and even this time might not be lost were Mr. Bentley paymaster for his own em- ployees. And In the detail of a policeman, Mr. Patrick sends an Indian who has served a term in the penitentiary for stealing from a Kicking Kickapoo, and, of course, he can be of no service among the Kickapoos. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1515 Referring to the latter part of your instructions, that I furnish von with ., detailed statement showing what Mr. Bentley ' S verified Statement m e unlr my own supervision, which is believed to account foi e ven Kicki^Kickanoo and very many of the progressives- J lvlcklng ivlf -fc>Poo I am of the opinion that Mr. Bentley is doing a grand work for these Indi-ms supporteT I ll^Z? P r eCM ,?* Sh °^ ln »/ Ai«t be Hbe Xy me charges aaainJt Mr KT* """ . C ° nYiUCe the u <»^Me Secretary that me enarges i against Mi. Bentley are not sustained. I recommend that in the interest of the service and in justice to Mr. Bentley that he be aUo wed a clerk iv, V'i a team , and bUggy ' and that be *"e entire charge of all the leaS S £ c P0 ° S ' *** alS ° the P"***" 1 ™ Kickapoos, including^ their lands! I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant, C'YKUS BEEDE, United States Indian Inspector. 4 .. I . t 1 T as ,? n jy about th at time that the Shawnees were eager -the kicking Shawnees were eager— to get under my jurisdiction. I liked the Indian people, I worked with them, I know them. And 1 want to say that when I took charge of these Indians I was mayor of a city that soon thereafter became the second city of the State of Oklahoma. I was confidential agent to the general manager of a railroad. I had 43 annual passes in my pocket, and could go from one end of this broad land to the other. I had Pullman and Wagner passes, and Western Union, Adams Express, and Pacific Express. I could ship express all over the country for nothing. Surely nobody thinks a man would give up a position like that to go and take a job at $1,200 a year unless he felt some intense interest in it. That intense interest came from this : I lived in Oklahoma before a white man had acquired a foot of land there. I had been an ob- server of Indians in other States, and I had always believed, .mrl I believe now, the reason the Indians make no progress is the fault of the Government and not of the Indians. Unless the Indian was superior to any other known kind of man he could not succeed. His hands are tied. You send failures among him to teach him success. I had believed that the Indian was susceptible of acquiring the nabit of labor, and even at a large financial loss I demonstrated that. I took the meanest, wildest, and most suspicious Indian, and in three or four years, by persistence, by my kindly treatment toward him, I succeeded in creating within him a habit of labor. When the spring time came he would go and plow as the other farmers did. But why? I was interested in him. I was his friend, and tie knew it. The Indian, gentlemen, has a sense of intuition that few white men have. He can not understand your language; he must understand your face. A condition came in Oklahoma that I saw the Kickapoo must leave there or perish. The traders were skinning them alive. And these Indians that I have been directly responsible for — while 92 per cent of the Pottawatomies' lands are gone and 70 per cent of the Shawnees' lands have passed to white ownership, of that whole original allotment 85 per cent in area and 95 per cent in value had gone to white ownership. Would I be awake to the in- terests of the Indian if I let him remain in a condition where he was going to be shrouded in a maze of Indian Office red tape, that the Indian agent might hold him while his trader friends peeled him ? Mr. Thackery. I did not have any traders. Mr. Bentlet. I am not referring to you. I refer to the Indian situation generally. 1516 KICKAPOO INDIANS. The Kickapoo Indians for whom I have been responsible have 70 per cent of their land yet. I began in 1903 and 1904. I knew the Government owed them large sums of money, and I led the work to ultimately get the Government to pay them that, and ultimately to get from the Government of the United States enough money to secure for them a home in Mexico. But that became impossible. These various acts of Congress were passed. At all times I came here honestly and openly. At the hearings upon which the act ap- propriating $215,000 and the act of June 22, 1906, were founded, days were spent by the full committee of the Senate on that matter. Con- gressman Slayden and prominent citizens were called to testify as to the character of the land. Mr. Thackery participated in those hearings. Mr. Leupp participated. I want to read briefly from this record to show that there has been no underhanded business here. This has been a wide-open book. Everybody understood it but the Indian Office; they could never understand it. " Eepresentative Burke. This is the act of 1906 you are talking about ? Mr. Bentley. This is the act of 1906. Eepresentative Burke. Before you read from the hearings, who initiated the act of 1906, if you know ? Not from hearsay, but what do you know about it ? Mr. Bextley. I think perhaps it was on my motion that the first hearings were had. and I was very persistent in trying to get that act. At the hearing which is found on pages 1950 to 1965 of the affairs of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians, under date of March 24, 1906, this occurred before the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs: Senator McCumber. This Indian here said that their children died very rapidly in this country, and that they lived longer down there. Mr. Thackery. The real reason is probably this, that there is more game there, and that they can live as Indians. Mr. Bentley. Is' nor that a good reason? Senator McCumeer. If yon give them " Indian conditions," they will be all right, for we certainly have not improved the Indian with all our civilization. He was at heart a better Indian when he was alone and lived as an Indian. Mr. Thackery. I am satisfied that those who are there expected to get this land and hold it in common. That will not be the case, however. They will soon be surrounded there by white men. I believe they have a right as indi- vidual citizens to go where they please, but, as an officer of the Government, I would like to see that they are protected. If they are going to have title there, let them get a proper title. Mr. Bentley. The Indian is as sensible as you are that the white race will follow him across the Rio Grande, and, realizing this condition, he had selected an ideal place for his home, which, however, we were not able to secure. This land that they had been hoping to secure is land that they themselves have selected. It is land that the older ones among them have known for 40 years. It is an enormous basin surrounded by high and rugged mountains and by a country that can never be occupied by white men. It is conglomerate and limestone, and the same character of country as found across the Rio (:rrande River m Texas This basin contains 23S.O00 acres of fine grazing and farming land, with numerous wells and artificial lakes, and now has grazing upon it more than 10,000 white-faced cattle. Two hundred and fifty head of American horses are on it, with several thousand goats in the mountains. The canyons are timbered with linwood and hard maple and timber that is indi- genous to New \ork and Vermont. The natural increase of these cattle would provide the Indians with their beef, and they would never miss it. The sur- plus cattle that would be annually sold would provide for their limited neces- sities, other than the farm products they would raise. Were they permitted to acquire this property, as I have stated before, these Indians would have a home and land long after the other Indians in this country will have nothing. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1517 Senator McCtjmber. There will be electric railroads there after awhile. Mr. Bentley. Not in that conglomerate country, sir. There are some very- rich silver mines in the mountains surrounding that property, but I do not think the miners would ever trouble the Indians. We might supply them with beef. There is only one disadvantage in that section of country in Mexico for cattle raising. The grasses are fine and nutritious, but when cattle are raised at an altitude of 5,000 feet and are then taken down to the railroads at an altitude of 2,000 feet, they become subject to the Texas fever and often die. This tract of land that the Kickapoos want to have for their permanent home raises as fine cattle as are raised In the world, and they would not have to irrigate the land there to raise wheat. But that has been beyond our means so far. This country is 175 miles off the railroad. The basin there is mesquite grass and is beautiful grazing country. I think the Indians could live there indefinitely and I do not know any other place so suitable for Indians. Mr. Thackery. I might state, in conclusion, that the feeling I have as an officer of the Interior Department is that the matter of this emigration of these Kickapoos, in reality, is backed by a desire on the part of certain people to acquire title to their lands over in Oklahoma. If I am wrong in that the whole matter is practically over with me. I feel that there is such a desire to move these people with the ultimate view to getting that land. Mr. Thackery. May I interrupt just a moment? Mr. Bentley. Certainly. Mr. Thackery. This evidence that he is reading from now was a hearing on the question of whether or not the act of 1905, the year before, should be repealed. The Interior Department had asked that this item in the Indian bill removing the restrictions from those seven valuable allotments, six of which were near the city of Shawnee, be repealed. We asked that that item be repealed so that the Secre- tary would not have to issue those seven patents. That act, as you recall, was mandatory. Up to this time he had not issued them and asked the repeal of that act so that he would not have to issue them. Representative Carter. The Secretary did that? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir ; and this hearing was on that question. Eepresentative Burke. Are those the seven allotments with refer- ence to which the Indian appropriation act of that year provided for the removal of restrictions, and it was alleged later that the pro- visions were incorporated in the bill without the knowledge of either the House or Senate conferees and were supposed to have been put in after the conference report was made and before the bill was enrolled ? Mr. Thackery. That is the item exactly. The Chairman. By whom? Representative Burke. Nobody ever knew. Mr. Thackery. It was slipped in mysteriously. . (Representative Burke here made an informal statement which the reporter was directed not to take.) . Mr. Bentley. Now, gentlemen, I want to satisfy you in one minute. . Mr Thackery May I finish? I was called before the Senate committee as a witness, as I recall it. Commissioner Leupp was there at the time. We had both been urging that .this amendment be repealed. What I want clear m the record is that the evidence he is reading now was not in reference to the act of 1906. And 1 did not know at that time, and I did not know when I was m Mexico after the act of 1906 had passed that the committee , oi r, oiy other Government authority had agreed upon any pool. 1 took the act for whaTIrsaid. I knew nothing about any agreement that was not 35601— ft 13—1 4- 1518 KICKAPOO INDIANS. named in the act, and I acted accordingly. I did not know, Mr. Bentley, of the agreement which you are attempting to have the committee understand now was for this pool, that because I was there at this time I knew of the pool and all that as discussed by the committee. There is no such understanding. The Chairman. Mr. Burke, you started to say something Representative Burke. Just a word, so -you will have this clear in your mind. It appears that these seven instances in the act of lDOo were put in surreptitiously. I asked who was responsible for that, and he savs he supposes that he was. This act of 1906 provides that: All restrictions as to sale and encumbrance of all lands, inherited and other- wise, of all adult Kickapoo Indians, and of all Shawnee, Delaware, Caddo, and Wichita Indians who have heretofore been or are now known as Indians of said tribes, affiliating with said Kickapoo Indians now or hereafter nonresi- dent in the United States, who have been allotted land in Oklahoma or Indian Territory, are hereby removed. Representative Carter. That removed all restrictions? Mr. Burke. That removed all restrictions. Mr. Bentley. No, indeed; that was not intended. Representative Burke. T do not know what was intended, but it did that. Representative Carter. That is the act under which the lands were really sold? Representative Burke. That is the act, when these fellows went down there and began buying these lands wholesale, which resulted in this investigation. Mr. Bentley. They did not buy them. Representative Burke. They got title to them. Mr. Bentley. I do not think anybody had any thought for a moment of any other than the Kickapoos, and the Delawares who had always been affiliated with them, and a few Shawnees. It was intended that those who has been with them and who had been af- filiating with them there might return. Representative Burke. I should like to get your version of that legislation which you say you are responsible for namely, removing the restrictions absolutely. Mr. Bentley. Well, as to the language. Chairman Sherman of the House committee changed that language in conference to meet the very thing you are talking about so that it would not apply to any Indian not affiliated with the Kickapoos. If he was lawyer enough to do that, he did it, because there was no intention to turn them loose. Now, if the Committee will bear with me for a moment, I want to show you Representative Carter. That is all Mr. Burke says. He does not claim that the resident Indians who were in the United States under this act — the act is plain — would have their restrictions, and all of them who were nonresident, to wit, the Mexican Kickapoos who were under your charge — Mr. Bentley. And those who were affiliated with them. Representative Carter. And you tell us you were responsible for that act and you wanted to protect the Indians? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1519 Mr. Bentley. Surely. Representative Carter. You thought it was protection to the Indian to remove his restrictions completely? Mr. Bentley. No. With this very statement— and you will find it elsewhere m the record— these Indians, had the department let them stay away and let them alone, would have been on the upgrade to-day. These men who followed them to Mexico— 4, 5, 6, or 8 land buyers— that would not have been in contention. The Interior Department or the Indian Office prevented the American consul from going there to their camp and taking acknowledgments, and they put a Federal officer there to throw me into prison. They took the Indian by the nape of the neck Mr. Thackery. What Government officer? Mr. Bentley. Mr. Outcelt. There is no use of any controversy between us as to that. My assertion is that he did do it, and I will prove it to you by the record. My assertion is that when these In- dians were arrested and brought to the house in Muzquiz, out in the suburbs of the city of Muzquiz, they were incarcerated in that yard like a drove of hogs; that a watchman stood at the gate all day long with a shotgun; that when 14 of these Kickapoos who had been held in prison for 14 days importuned by the United States attorney, Mr. Outcelt, he said, " If you will ask your people to sign this for me I will turn you loose." The Chairman. If this legislation had not been passed that would not have been possible, and it would have done no good to intimidate them. Mr. Bentley. Senator, if the Department of the Interior and the Indian Office had not substituted their judgment for that of Con- gress it could not have happened. As I will show, Mr. Leupp came before the committee and agreed to this, that if Congress would do this it would demonstrate whether I had been guilty or whether the officers of the department had been guilty. Somebody apparently was doing a terrible wrong. But now, a month before that act passed, in anticipation of this act, here went the officers of the Indian Office down there to be on the ground and carefully lay their plans to see that the Indian did not get the benefit of the intention of Con- gress and the law. The Chairman. What officers? Mr. Bentley. Mr. Outcelt and Mr. Thackery, Senator. Representative Carter. You have not answered the chairman's question. The chairman wants to know if it would have been pos- sible to have robbed these Indians if it had not been for the passage of this act ? Mr. Bentley. No ; neither would it have been possible for him to have acquired a home in Mexico unless it was by the exchange of his land. But when, as shown by these three volumes here, they had me, as their attorney and agent, to come here before the committees of Congress to secure a direct appropriation paying the Kickapoos for claims growing out of the last treaty they had made with the United States . Representative Burke. What treaty are you referring to { Mr. Bentley. The last treaty the Kickapoos ever made with the United States. It was made in 1891, I helieve. 1520 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Representative Burke. That is not the treaty made by some men who came here and forged the names ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir ; that is the one. That is the last one. Representative Burke. You want to sustain your contention by that treaty? . Mr. Bentley. No. I want to make this clear to the committee ■ Representative Burke. You said a moment ago, in the early part of your remarks, that there was no treaty. I asked you what you meant, and you said it was a forged treaty. Now you are starting out to make an argument, predicating it upon that treaty. Mr. Bentley. It was called a treaty, but in fact it never was a treaty. Congress ratified it, and it served the purpose of a treaty. I can only refer to it as a treaty. But the point I want to make there is this: This document (S. Doc. No. 350, 60th Cong., 1st sess.) is the argu- ment I made before a subcommittee of the Senate presenting the claim of the Kickapoos growing out of these certain treaty relations, showing that the Government owed these Indians other large sums of money on various treaties. And, in view of the fact that at the time, so far as we knew, the Indians had been robbed of their land, and through the connivance, we believed and now assert, of Federal officers Mr. Thackery. Who was it? Mr. Betntley. Mr. Out celt. As to that, the committee investi- gating the affairs of these Indians down there in their report say they found that the robbers who robbed the Kickapoos were mate- rially aided by Mr. Outcelt and by yourself. I do not mean to say that "you went down there deliberately to help rob the Kickapoos Mr. Thackery. I would like to have that finding read, please. Mr. Bentley. I will read it to you in just a moment. (Here followed a short informal discussion which the reporter was directed not to take.) Mr. Bentley. Gentlemen, if you will hear me just a moment: While this matter of the act of 1905, about this amendment which had gone through without consideration, is a mystery, fortunately it is a mystery that no doubt can be cleared up. Congressman Stephens was one of the conferees, I think, at that time on that bill. There was a circumstance in connection with that that will show you it was con- sidered in committee, and carefully considered. Commissioner Leupp was so insanely prejudiced against me that the man's eyes turned green when he looked at me. He would actually take the fidgets. Somebody phoned to him and told him I was in there before the committee — the Senate committee — and he came rushing over with a cane in one hand and his hat in the other. And he rushed in before the committee and delivered himself of one of the most excited speeches you could think of — so I was told by members; I was not present, but Mr. Stephens will recall it. He condemned me for everything, I guess, a man could, and referred to the Quapah item. He never said anything about the Kickapoos, and when he was through he grabbed his hat with the same excitement and rushed out. And the former delegate from Oklahoma, Dave Harvey, was down here all winter to get some item about the Quapahs in the bill, arid they knocked that off, and it lost him his winter's work. Mr. Leupp never touched the thing he came to talk about at all. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1521 The Chairman. You have not stated anything that shows that anyone knew that the provision relating to the Kickapoos Mr. Bentley. Why, the members, Senator, knew it. It was dis- cussed with Stewart and Pettigrew. Representative Burke. Who discussed it? Who put it in? Mr. Bentley. I discussed it with all of them. I did not know there was any secret about it. The Chairman. Were you the author of the provision in the act of 1905 removing the restrictions? Mr. Bentley. Just exactly as I wrote it and gave it to Senator Stewart. Representative Burke. That was put in the Senate bill before it passed the Senate, was it? Mr. Bentley. I can not be sure as to that ; I do not know whether it was or not. Representative Burke. But it was in the law when the law was signed ? Mr. Bentley. I know it was talked about in conference. Representative Burke. The conferees could not put it in. Mr. Bentley. I don't know as to that. I know it was talked about in committee. I know it was talked about before the conferees, because I was in there. Mr. Stephens will recall that I came in there and asked about it. It was in the bill in conference, I know. Representative Burke. You initiated the act of 1905, which re- moved the restrictions as to those seven particular Indians, and also the act of 1906, which removed the restrictions as to all Indians affili- ated with the Mexican Kickapoos at that time ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. That is, with others, I did my best to get the legislation. Representative Burke. I wish you would go ahead and state what you did after that was done. State the transactions with refer- ence to the lands that were conveyed to you as trustee, or to your wife as trustee. In the first place, why were not all the conveyances made to you as trustee and why was your wife made trustee ? Mr. Bentley. In two of the instances — Mrs. Bentley is well known to the Indians. She has doctored them and their children. They have been about my home for years and years. She has been a mother to some of them. They themselves wanted to deed their land to her. Representative Carter. Rather than to you ? Mr. Bentley. No; I did not want them to deed it to me. Mr. W. W. Ives, of Kokomo. Ind.. was selected as the trustee to take those titles, for the reason that he comes from one of the cleanest families in the world, I believe. The Chairman. Who selected him? Mr. Bentley. I did. I induced him to come, because he was a man financially responsible. There is a family that there never has been a blot on. Members of Congress were called before the Senate committee, when these acts were under consideration, as to the character of Ives. . .,,,.-• Tr - 1 The Chairman. Had he any connection with the Mexican Kick- apoo matters or other Indian matters? Mr. Bentley. No, sir; and never since. Mr Th\ckery Wasn't he connected with four or five contests ( 1522 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentley. Not that I ever knew of. Mr. Ti-iac'Iveey. Did you not dictate a contract for a contest, whiie you were the agent of the Government, in the Oklahoma National Bank, in Shawnee, whereby a man named Leonard A. Hampton put up $500 payable to W. TV". Ives when this allotment should be canceled ? Mr. Bentley. Now, I will say this to the committee, that that is a matter that has been carefully gone over. I have been questioned closely as to that entire transaction by Mr. Embry, the United States attorney. There is my answer [indicating the Senate hearings of 1907] ; the whole thing; and I will offer thai part of this record per- taining to that to save time, and that covers the whole transaction. Senator Townsend. Can you say yes or no as to whether he was interested in any transaction except the ones you have mentioned? Mr. Bentley. I have no recollection of any instance of Mr. Ives being interested if he knew it. There may have been an instance pos- sibly once or twice where the man's name was used in some way, be- cause he was a man that could be trusted, but it was a trivia] matter if it was done. The Chairman. Was he a personal friend of yours? Mr. Bentley. Only to this extent, that I knew of the man: I knew the father and the family. I thought I would get a man of such high character and such reputation that nobody could ever question his motives. I took the cleanest and be.st man I knew. The Chairman. Did you consult him before he was appointed as trustee and received these titles? Mr. Bentley. I had consulted him once. I had stated to him the proposition that these lands — the proposition was to sell these lands and convert them into money ; that we wanted them sold to the best possible advantage; and if we would come to Shawnee I would pay him. Mr. Ives would never have come except that his wife was in delicate health; threatened Avith tuberculosis in that climate; and that, coupled with something to do that might be worth something to him, led him to come to Shawnee. And those seven deeds — five were taken to him. Two of them were sold for $32,000. The Chairman. You have not told why you did not take all of the seven to Ives. Mr. Bentley. Because the Indians insisted on making the deeds to Mrs. Bentley. The Chairman. Those two particular Indians? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Mr. Thackery. This man here [indicating] was one of them? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir: Wah-nah-ke-tha. Mr. Thackery. And who was the other one? Mr. Bentley. No-ten. I think you will find they both so testified in this record. Representative Burke. That legislation that removed the restric- tions from those seven allottees was passed upon the theory or repre- sentation that those Indians were capable of managing their own affairs? Mr. Bentley. No such argument was ever made. This statement was made, that these Indians had no children, no one but themselves, and they were willing to put their lands into a pool that might be con- KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1523 verted into money, creating a fund with which to buy a home for all of them m Mexico. The Chairman. Can you explain why the act itself did not make provision for the pooling of the lands of these Kickapoos? Mr. Bentley. You could not have got any such legislation passed. 1 he Chairman. You have just stated that that was what prompted the legislation. Mr. Bentley. That is true. Those representations were made, and they were made m good faith, but you could never get an act through the Senate carrying with it such a feature. Senator Teller believed as much as I believed that these Indians would become extinct here, and it was a matter of preservation, an act of humanity, to help them. But for his help we would have been destroyed. We would all have been indicted and in purgatory but for him. He had been Secretary of the Interior. He knew the ways of the Indian Office. He knew that anybody that got in their way was going to feel the iron heel of the Federal law. These pirates would drive a man anywhere. It did not make any difference the way the Indian Office had been adminis- tered The Chairman. Let us stick to the facts. Mr. Bentley. Those are the facts, Senator. The Chairman. That is a matter of argument. You are a lawyer ? Mr. Bentley. Not to hurt. By occupation I am a farmer. The Chairman. You know that is not a matter of testimony. Mr. Bentley. I hope you will pardon me for this digression. The Chairman. You have stated you took these seven titles — five to Ives and two to Mrs. Bentley Senator Townsend. I want to ask you one question. Do you mean to say that the Senate would not have passed that measure if it had understood that you were trying to do the thing that you did do ? Mr. Bentley. No. I mean this : That to have framed an act with so much detail to it there would have been so many diverse ideas on the floor of the Senate. One man would have understood it one way and another another. There would have been confusion. There ■would have been no objection to the consummation of the purpose. I do not believe it would have passed. It was the opinion of the Members that it was better to do it in that form, because it was urged by the Indian Department that I controlled those Indians absolutely, and they had to get an authorization from me to talk to them Senator Townsend. But the Senate itself did not know that that was the intention of the act? Mr. Bentley. I think every member of the Senate committee knew it. Senator Townsend. I am talking about the Senate now. Mr. Bentley. The Senate knew it, too. The Chairman. Have you been sworn, Mr. Thackery ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. (Mr. Frank A. Thackery was thereupon duly sworn by the chair- man.) Mr. Bentley. I think it will be found that the Congressional Record, when these matters were debated Representative Carter. I want to ask you a question. Did this act providing for the removal of restrictions on these seven Indians make any provision as to whom they could make transfer to? 1524 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentley. Oh, no ; none of the acts did. Representative Carter. It was just a straight removal of restric- tions ? Mr. Bentley. Surely. Representative Carter. They were ignorant people, were they not? Mr. Bentley. Yes, indeed. Representative Carter. Uneducated, and could not speak English? Mr. Bentley. That was given as one reason. Representative Carter. Some of them drank ? Mr. Bentley. A great many of them — not a great many. I do not want to be unjust to the Indians. Representative Carter. They were just such Indians as we find among the ignorant, uneducated Indians of to-day? Mr. Bentley. Hardly. Representative Carter. What was to prevent any other men com- ing in and taking those deeds in spite of vou in case he got to them first? Mr. Bentley. They would have had to forge their names. I did get there, and nobody attempted it. Representative Carter. How long was it after this act was passed before you began to negotiate for the deeds ? Mr. Bentley. I left here the night of the 3d of March. Representative Carter. When was the act passed,? Mr. Bentley. March 4. Representative Carter. You knew the act was going to pass? Mr. Bentley. I apprehended, that it would. I had been told it was in the bill. Representative Carter. You went directly to the reservation? Mr. Bentley. I want to St. Louis, and there I found a telegram that this was the law. Representative Carter. Who was the telegram from? Mr. Bentley. Mr. Powell, I think. Sam Powell wired me in care of the hotel where I usually stayed. Representative Carter. Was he your attorney ? Mr. Bentley. He was rather the attorney of the Indians. Representative Carter. Interested wjith you in those matters? Mr. Bentley. No; no interest whatever. He looked after some matters for the Indians. Representative Carter. How long after that before you left St. Louis ? Mr. Bentley. I left St. Louis immediately when I knew the law had passed. I wired to Muzquiz, Mexico, and when I arrived at Eagle Pass they were there. Representative Carter. Did you immediately begin to negotiate as soon as you got there? Mr. Bentley. I did not have to begin ; they were waiting. Representative Carter. Whom did you wire to? Mr. Bentley. I wired a Mexican by the name of Roman Galan to bring these Indians to the border. Representative Carter. I find here some telegrams, Mr. Bentley. For instance, here is one to Sam Powell. National Hotel, Wash- ington. D. C. : Louks good here. Big council to-morrow. Indians standing pat. M. J. Bentley. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1525 Mr. Bentley. That must have been in June, 1906. Representative Carter. May 25, 1906. Mr Bentley. Yes; that was from the Indians' camp at Muzquiz. Mr. .Powell had been very much interested in the Indians Representative Carter. Then I find a copy of another telegram: vr ^ tj,,*™ ,r ■ , Washington, D. C, June til, 1906. M. J. Bentley, Muzquiz, Mexico. Indian bill signed. No change. Attend to mutter of checks by wire. Sam Powell. Mr. Bentley. Yes. Representative Carter. Those telegrams were sent in connection with the purchase of the land in Oklahoma, were they? Mr. Bentley. No ; that matter of the checks, if you refer to that, had no reference to Indian lands. That referred to a different trans- action. Representative Carter. These were not the telegrams you referred to as having received a few moments ago ? Mr. Bentley. No, sir. Representative Carter. You went immediately to Mexico? Mr. Bentley. I went to the border, and there I found, my recol- lection is, five or six of the Indians that had come out. These Indians had conferred among themselves, and they had sent me here to get these restrictions removed. Representative Burke. One of these Indians here? Mr. Bentley. Yes; that man — Wah-nah-ke-tha — and Jim Deer. I don't know who they were. He, however, did not come out, but the others came. They were elated enough over the prospect that there was a show to get some money to buy some land. Representative Carter. What was the objection, and from whom did it come, to having stated in this act what the real purpose of the act was ? Mr. Bentley. Well, as to this first act, I don't know that there was any objection. It was a mere matter of removal of restrictions. Representative Carter. You said a few moments ago you could not have put that through the Senate Mr. Bentley. I was referring to the act of 1905. This matter merely referring to six or seven allotments — I don't know whether there was any discussion about that. I had in mind, of course, the act removing the restrictions from all of them. I don't know that there was anything very much said about this. Representative Burke. You did not consider the question of get- ting the restrictions removed from all of them until after you got the seven, did you? Mr. Bentley. I will tell you how it came about. If the depart- ment had kept its hands off, as Mr. Thackery has testified — they jumped in and went into the newspapers. The title had passed. If there had been a lawyer in the Indian Office they probably would have known that there would have been no use to attempt to repeal a law of that kind. But they did not seem to, and they actually wrote an amendment and sent it up here after an Indian had deeded his land Mr. Thackery. You say the deeds were really in trust, although the deed was only a warranty deed ? 1526 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentley. If you were selling a piece of land for somebody, what do you want to file a declaration of trust for and complicate your title? I don't know any other way. Choctaw Indians in Montana sent Mrs. Bentlev a warranty deed, and now she has valu- able land in Oklahoma to sell for them. They did not make any declaration of trust in it. If somebody wants to buy the land, she sells it for them. Representative Burke. Do you know of any white people who do business in that way? Mr. Bentley. I do. I have done that myself. I owned a ranch that I turned over to a man as security for some money Mr. Tiiackery. Who was the man ? Mr. Bentlev. Mr. Ives. Representative Bueke. Was Ives present when you got these deeds on the property? Mr. Bentley-. No. Representative Burke. Had these Indians ever seen Ives? Mr. Bentley-. They probably knew of him. Representative Burke. Did they know him? Mr. Bentley-. Okemah knew him. Representative Burke. Did these grantors know him ? Mr. Bentley. Okemah and all of them knew him. I explained to them who he was. As a matter of fact, he had taken title to Oke- mah's and his wife's lands. He sent the $15,000 in cash that he got out of it, and sent it promptly. But Ives had executed a declaration of trust that would have protected the Indians. Senator Townsend. I think your position is absolutely defensible. If the Congress would allow you to do such a thing as that, which, I think, is a monstrous thing, I think Congress is to blame. But I would like to know what you did with the money. Mr. Bentley. Well, the money received from the first seven allot- ments — but three of them was ever received by me. The rumpus that was raised clouded the title. I could have sold his allotment for $40,000 in cash, and at that time it was worth $50,000. I believe had the town remained as it was then it would have brought $85,000. But in holding on to it for him and trying to protect him — finally these fellows forged his name to a contract, and the town fell down, and it is not worth $15,000. We were injured by the department refusing to follow the plain, positive direction of the law, and were completely defeated in our purpose of acquiring a suitable home in Mexico. Had the department kept its hands off, we would never have come here asking for this act. Representative Burke. What did you consider the value of those seven allotments at the time the act was passed in 1905 ? Mr. Bentley^. If somebody will compute it, I can tell you. Representative Burke. Just give us an estimate. Mr. Bentley. I figured that the Wah-nah-ke-tha allotment at that time was worth probably somewhere around $20,000. Representative Burke. That is one of them. Mr. Bentley-. It might bring $25,000. In a few months, though, the street car line went out there and it became very valuable. Two allotments belonging to Okemah and his wife, 154 acres, were sold for $32,000. Representative Burke. That is three of them. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1527 Mr. Bentley. That was probably $10,000 more than it was ever worth. It would not bring $10,000 now. It never was worth Representative Burke. That is about $55,000 for three. Mr. Bent-ley. We never got any cash out of the Okemah land, the 154 acres, so far as I know, except as I have testified. Representative Burke. What were the other four allotments worth? Mr. Bent-ley. Well, I think the others would average about $3,000 apiece. They were farther from town and badly cut up, some of them. Representative Burke. Then you would say the value of the seven was around $65,000 or $70,000 ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; that is about their value at the time the act passed. As I said, we were only able to sell for anything near their value three of them. The expense had been enormous in Mex- ico taking care of those Indians. I had gone backward and for- ward, employed helpers, and all that. The only thing I could buy was a little piece of land of 2,000 acres with six days of water. Senator Townsend. What do you mean by six days of water? Mr. Bentley. There is a peculiar custom in Spanish countries that when a settlement is established and there is a river to irrigate with they call it 30 days of water, and then each person of the community is entitled to so many days or hours a month. There the Indians were settled, but it was only a temporary home, having been unable to get any money sufficient to purchase the prop- erty they wanted. Then I came back the next winter and tried to get all the restrictions removed. There was a great property there that I believed would support them always. I had it in such a way that I could buy it for such less than its value, as I believe — 238,000 acres, with 10,000 or 12,000 cattle, 175 miles from a railroad. We could raise corn, beans, and potatoes. I think the Indians would Lave been in Paradise there. Now, the act of 1906, as I have said, if the department had been content to follow the judgment of Congress rather than its own, and let us alone, the American consul would have gone over there, and those titles would have been taken to Mr. Ives. Mr. Ives would have advertised those lands, and they would have been sold in 40's or 80's. Any man that has had experience in lands in Oklahoma knows that when people are attracted to a land sale of that character the lands bring a very high price. Those lands would have nearly sold for enough to pay the Indians out, but if it had not, it would have been an easy matter to sell cattle enough to make up the difference. As a matter of fact, two Federal officers came there— Mr. Thackery and Mr. Outcelt. The doings of Mr. Outcelt in cruelty and bar- barism are beyond any descriptive power of mine. The finest look- ing Indian I ever saw, the chief and leader of the Kickapoos, was put in prison in Mudquiz, held there for 14 long days in that tropical climate. If purgatory is any worse than that, I am sure nobody would want to go there. . The United States attorney could not break him down, finally, a great lot of rubbish and old bottles were put into coftee sacks, and thev were put on his back, and he was marched around the plaza to humiliate him to make him break down and agree to sell his land. 1528 KICKAPOO INDIANS. As a result, he testified himself before this committee of the Senate that investigated the affairs of the Kickapoos, that he carried this great sack of rubbish on his back, and when he came before the committee as a result of the injuries, his arm laid as limp at his side as if it had been a piece of wood. It was little short of murder, perhaps worse than murder. The very day that the act passed re- moving the restrictions as to these lands I was thrown into prison, and an Indian was induced to commit perjury. One of the land buyers and Mr. Outcelt induced an Indian to swear that I had as- saulted him with a six-shooter. I have the prison record here. I can not see to read it without my glasses, but I want to offer it for the record. Senator Townsend. You do not care to have it read ? Mr. Bentley. I will state briefly what it is. This Indian was in- duced to commit perjury, to swear that I had caused him to be assaulted with a six-shooter. Mr. Outcelt wired to Mr. Thackery, who was on the border, "Bentley in jail; come at once." I have often wondered what the hurry was that Mr. Thackery should get there so quickly. Mr. Thackery came and was around there while I was in prison. I was no more guilty of any wrong than one of you gentlemen. Fortunately, at the end of the sixth day, the last day of my trial- it was a case that was being tried before what is known as a vacation judge — the regular judge returned. He said to Mr. Outcelt, " What is your function in my court ? " " Why," he said, " I am prosecuting attorney for the United States." " Well," the judge told him, " your absence would be more agreeable than your presence. We are in a civilized country." Representative Carter. Was this a Mexican judge ? Mr. Bentley. Yes; it was a Mexican judge that told him this. And the judge recalled the witness, this Indian Johnson whom Out- celt and the land buyer had induced to swear that I had assaulted him, and they had a " confrontal." They have a peculiar way of try- ing people there. The judge brings the accuser and the accused to a table, and sits them down to see what they have to say to each other. I said, " Mack, how come you to swear that I ever hit you ? " He said, " Oh, no; you never did," and the interpreter said, That man denies it." Now, I was acquitted. Had the vacation judge, who had been bribed to put me in prison and keep me out of the way by the land buyers, presided, then God knows where I would have gone. But by accident the regular judge returned and dismissed him. The Chairman. How did you get the regular judge back? Mr. Bentley. I don't know; it was an accident. Now, it was just at nightfall, and I had a hand grip. I walked out in the plaza as if I was going to stay there always ; but I knew it was only going to be a matter of hours until the regular judge would leave, and then back in the jail I would go. So when night fell I dodged and I took refuge in the home of a venerable German priest. I went in there to his home, and he said, " Come away from the win- dow; come inside." He lit his pipe and began talking to me, and he said, " This is a serious situation." I said, " Father, what had I better do? " " Well," he said, " I can not tell you. If you stay here, they will put you back in prison, and you may never get out alive; KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1529 if you attempt to get away and they catch you, they will never brin<* you back alive. I can not tell you what you had better do." Criminals were turned loose and armed, Mr. Outcelt's friends, the American land buyers^ Outcelt's interpreter— they were all out for me. They even went to a town 16 miles below there at 2 o'clock in the morning searching the hotel. No hounds ever hunted anything as they hunted me. I remained in the priest's house until midnight. The next morning just before day I made Las Esperanzas. Edwin Ludlow, an Ameri- can, had charge of those mines there. The town swarmed with rurales and police that day. There was a railroad coming down from the north to intersect one that led up northeast to the Mexican border. It was arranged that the physician to the railroad and coal mine there would take a friend of his horseback that evening to visit his patients, and they rode down the alley back of where Mr. Ludlow's place was, and as they came down I dressed myself differently than I did when I was last seen at Muzquiz. Instead of wearing a dark coat and light hat I wore just the opposite, the same as the doctor's friend. I went out and the doctor's friend swung out of the saddle and I swung in, and rode right down through the rurales and never paid any attention to them. When I got to Barroteran, the station where I should have taken the main line, the train did not come. I never can tell anybody how I felt when day began to break. Of course, the Mexicans would have got me, but it so happened that the section boss's house was open, and I hid there. About 11 o'clock the next day a freight train came. In the meantime, however, I could see my pursuers from the window of the section house — Grimes and several of the land buyers. Mrs. Bentley and the children came, and they were walking up and down the platform ; but, of course, it would have been death to me to make myself known. Anyhow, about 11 o'clock, by a streak of luck, I got on board that freight train and got started for the border. There were nine dead- heads on there. I knew from the telegrams that were brought to me that the chief of police at the next town had been wired that he would be responsible if I got by. There was $10,000 up for me ; $5,000 put up and $5,000 held in escrow. I induced the conductor to stop that train 8 miles out from the next station and drop all those fellows off. In the town of Sabinas, where they would ordinarily have been an hour and a half, I gave the crew $10 apiece, and I was allowed to hide in the caboose. They went through there searching for me, and I liked to have roasted in that caboose. They were there just 27 minutes. That night, when thev got a mile and a half from the border, they stopped and let me off.' I had a pair of field glasses, and I saw the train when it pulled in there, and there they swarmed like a lot of hll 77 VI T*(~l C! When m>ht fell I made my way into the town, and J. N. Shafter, a brother <3 Gen. Shafter, at midnight of July 4, 1906, took me m his closed carriage across the Bio Grande Biver into the United Now the Kickapoos stood pat. They would not sign any deed, but when the time came they could not get the Indians to go out, and 1530 KICKAPOO INDIANS. there was no way to do it but just deliberately rob them, and they did. They went to their village and brought them to the jefe politi- co's home, and there their names were forged to the deed. There are copies of those checks in this record. First they forged the Indians' names to a deed. Then they wrote a check for the amount of consideration named in the forged title. They turned that check over and forged the Indians' indorsement on it. He never saw the check ; he never saw the deed. They brought those checks to Eagle Pass, Tex., drawn on the First National Bank. There they deposited them to the credit of the Indians. They sent the deed on to Shawnee for record. Then, in a few days, they re- turned with a forged check and drew the money out, relying upon that system of checks. We indicted them 140 times for forgery. We got 140 indictments against Chapman, Grimes, Conine, and Brown, at Eagle Pass, Tex., because they uttered these forged checks. Gov. Haskell refused to surrender these men, and then it was that Field and others went into Mexico and indicted them, and tried them, and, as I understand, convicted them over there. During: the investigation of the Kickapoo matter the Indians time and again persisted that George Outcelt, the assistant United States attorney, was present at the home of this Mexican judge when these Indians' names were forged. But we could not believe it ; we thought they must be mistaken, but when they went there and tried them I am informed that it developed that he was there and saw it done, or knew it was done. We had numerous trials in Oklahoma over this matter, and the attorneys for the men who robbed the Kickapoos — for Chapman, Grimes, and Brown — have admitted to me that Brown, in the trials in Oklahoma, swore that he went fishing that day and took Outcelt with him, to protect Outcelt as not having been present when the deeds were forged. The ChaikTuan. What attorneys were they? Mr. Bentley. Ben Blakeney was their attorney. Representative Cabteb. Was he the one that told you ? Mr. Bentley. He told me that. And Mr. Field tells me that when they were tried in Mexico there it developed that Outcelt was present and saw this done. Mr. Thackeey. You say it developed that he was there and knew of the forgeries in a certain trial? Mr. Bentley. No; he was there at Guajardo's house. Mr. Thackeey. You say that fact was developed in a trial? Mr. Bentley. A trial at Shawnee. I think it was Wah-nah-ke- tha s case, or it was at Tecumseh, perhaps. We tried several of those cases m the local courts. Growing out of that, Brown swore that Outcelt was not there and that he was fishing with him on that day, but Ben Blakeney, the attornev for 'Brown, has since told me that Brown lied ; that he was not with Outcelt fishing, but he and Outcelt were both present at Guajardo's house, where the deeds were forged, or are alleged to have been forged. Mr. Thackeey. Then it did not develop at the trial ? Mr. Bentley. Oh, no; that did not develop at the trial. Mr. Thackeey. I never knew of that before, and that is the reason 1 asked vou. KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1531 Mr. Bentley. Now, I have done everything I could do. I took these Indians before the grand jury at Eagle Pass, and it was three times before they succeeded in getting a grand jury that would indict these men. A time came when the Indians at Muzquiz who had been robbed were in this position : These men in Shawnee who had robbed them had come to take their depositions before the same judge who had forged their names to these titles. The poor Kickapoo was in this attitude: If he went before the" judge and told the truth, he would hold him for contempt and throw him into prison. If he went before him and lied or testified falsely against himself, he would lose his land. Another unfortunate thing developed there. This great record- all these volumes of this testimony— contains a great number of tele- grams in cipher. When President Diaz found the key to them it led to the disgrace of a lot of officers of his who were mixed up in it. The governor of the State of Coahuila, it was shown, participated in the $5,000 that was put up to put me in prison. It created such a condition at Muzquiz that the Indians could not stay there. The jefe politico, at whose home they were robbed, where their names were forged, and who was the principal authority of that locality, forbade them to move. We appealed to the State Depart- ment, and on May 6, 1907, under the protection of the American con- sul from Ciudad Porfirio Diaz, Mexico, the Kickapoo Indians who are now in Sonora, including these, started on their long trip across the desert to Sonora, more than a thousand miles — except Wah-nah- ke-tha and Ah-kis-kuck and those who had very valuable lands. I knew the State Department would put somebody there so they could not be compelled to swear against themselves. Out of precaution, I brought 40 of them to Eagle Pass and brought them around by Maria, some 300 miles farther north, and rejoined the others in the desert. We left Muzquiz May 6, 1907, and landed in eastern Sonora Novem- ber 8. 1907. We were all that period of time crossing those deserts and over those mountains. We had 27 wagons, about 200 Indians, and about 600 head of horses. The expense of that trip was frightful. There was times we had to pay for water. We had to pay for grass. We had to pay scandalous prices for provisions. During the winter of 1907 and 1908 I wintered this whole cara- van — horses, people, and all — south of Douglas, Ariz. That was when I was here advocating the passage of this amendment which resulted in putting $86,000 in my hands. I had borrowed in all nearly $30,000 — some of it borrowed in Washington, $6,000 of it borrowed at Eagle Pass, Tex. The Chairman. How much was borrowed in Washington ? Mr. Bentley. I will tell you in a moment. Some that I had bor- rowed here I had given my note for. There was one item, with in- terest, that amounted to $448; one of $2,213.33; and one of $600. I had borrowed at Eagle Pass, Tex., of the Border National Bank, $6,000. I had borrowed of a man by the name of Eagan, who lives in Indiana, $4,000. I had borrowed of a man, an attorney at Okla- homa City, $4,000. The Chairman. Who was that vou borrowed from at Oklahoma City? Mr. Bentley. J. H. Everest. I don't know where Mr. Eagan lives now, but somewhere in Indiana. Mr. Ives has his address. 15? 2 KICKAPOO INDIANS. The Chairman. Did Mr. Ives get that loan for you? Mr. Bentley. He negotiated that. The Chairman. How much did you borrow from Eagan? Mr Bentley. $4,000. I borrowed from a man by the name of Lee, in Oklahoma City, $1,200 and something. When I paid it, it amounted to almost $1,300. The Chairman. What were Mr. Lee's initials? Mr. Bentley. M. R. Lee. Mr. Thackery. Is he living yet? Mr. Bentley. He was the last I knew. $1,285.15 was the amount when I puid Mr. Lee. The Chairman. Is he interested m real estate in Oklahoma City? Mr. Bentley. Yes ; I think he probably held a little. The Chairman. When did you make that loan from Mr. Lee? Mr. Bentley. Well, that was made, I think, during the summer of the Grimes-Outcelt raid. That was the summer of 1906. Anyhow, there were some other loans. Before receiving any money belonging to the Indians of the $86,000, I paid in cash to 42 Indians $13,000 of that borrowed money. The Chairman. Before you received it? Mr. Bentley. Before I received this $86,000, I had paid in cash to 42 of the allottees, whose money the $86,000 was, that I had bor- rowed—I paid them $13,000. The Chairman. There is a statement in the record, affairs of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians, showing those items, is there? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is the page? Mr. Bentley. Page 1706. In the report of that investigation, on page 1706, appears a schedule of my account, as rendered at that time, showing a balance in my favor of $8,060. I had received of Kickapoo money $37,209.91, and* I had expended $45,260. I think, perha,ps, that account is short one or two items that were overlooked in making up this statement. The payment to 42 Indians, amounting to $13,000 — a check properly indorsed — was accounted for and checked at the time by the committee. This account was very critically ex- amined. I think Mr. Embry himself probably will say that there is no question as to this account being genuine. The Chairman. To whom was that check of $13,000 paid ? Mr. Bentley-. Oh, that was paid to 42 Indians. Some got $100. This old man right here — Ah-kis-kuck — who denies it now, was paid $250 of that. The Chairman. In whose favor was that check drawn? Mr. Bentley-. Drawn to him always. I paid his son $750 — Mexi- can money. I paid him $500 because he owed a grocery bill of $500. I paid his wife $200, 1 believe, or $300, Mexican. They were all three there at the same time and were paid at the same time. The Chairman. Were all those payments made on checks, Mr. Bentley? Mr. Bentley. Every one of them, and those checks were presented to the investigating committee and checked over. Not only that, but the record of that bank they were drawn on was checked. This com- mittee that investigated the affairs of the Kickapoos was there at Eagle Pass at the Border National Bank, where the money was paid, and when my records showed, and I testified that I had expended KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1533 $45,000, it was questioned. They said, "Where did you get it?" I am free to say that I can not account for where I got it, but I have the sworn statement now of the officers of the bank showing that I had deposited there $56,000. Eepresentative Burke. Now, Mr. Bentley — in order that I may not be confused — at the time this commission made this investiga- tion that you are talking about had the $86,000 been appropriated ? Mr. Bentley. No; that was before, and when that money came into my hands, these sums that I had borrowed in advance for the Kickapoos and that 1 had paid them to live on, to support them — of course, I was repaid out of that fund. I also reimbursed myself for the sum that was due me. Eepresentative Burke. In order to keep the record straight, the report made by the Senate committee says : The evidence shows that Mr. Bentley has received from land and other property, which would go to the common fund of the Indians, the sum of $37,209.91, and that he has expended for them the sum of $45,260. Do those figures correspond? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Eepresentative Burke. I thought you just said $56,000. Mr. Bentley. I say I deposited in that bank and checked through the bank in that period $56,000. 1 actually handled that much money there. That was my deposits and receipts. I can show you the check received there on my account when I repaid this $6,000. The Chairman. Now, come to the item of $215,000 appropria- tion. Out of that you received a fee of $28,000 ? Mr. Bentley. I want to explain that; the way I came to be paid a fee of $28,000. These Indians met in council. The superintendent of West Point represented the President of the United States at that council. Maj. McLaughlin represented the Secretary of the Interior. . Mr. Thackery. Who was the superintendent of West Point ? Mr. Bentley. Gen. Scott. Mr. Thackery. He is now in the city, isn't he? ' Mr. Bentley. I don't know as to that. He has been stationed in Mr. Thackery. He is here; Assistant Chief of Staff of the Army. Mr. Bentley. There had been a scheme on the part of the Indian Office to deprive the Mexican Kickapoo Indians from getting any benefit of this money. They had sent their officers and actually kid- naped them and got a majority of them to go to Shawnee, Okla. Mr. Thackery. May I ask him to name those ? Mr Bentley. One 'Mark Goode came to the Indian camp below the border and hoodooed a lot of Indians and got them out of there They went to Muzquiz. They went anywhere that they could nnd an Indian to get enough of them back to Shawnee so that they could have Mr Thackery or some other man made their trustee and de- feat the purpose of the appropriation It came to the notice of Senators, particularly Senator Teller, that it was proposed that the Government of the United States was going to run a special train from Shawnee, Okla., to Holbrook Anz., s o that the Indians that lived down in Mexico would actually have to make a trip of 600 miles, which would have been impossible for them to do. 35601— pt 13—14 5 1534 KICKAPOO INDIANS. When that came to the notice of President Roosevelt, through the representations of Senators here, that here was a desperate attempt to again defeat these Indians, the President took the bull by the horns and had Gen. Scott there at Shawnee, Okla., and they took charge of that train, and instead of going to Holbrook it was run to Douglas and the Indians were united there. After they had voted on the question as to who should remain in Mexico, and the choice of a trustee, and those who would go to Shawnee, then the question of my compensation for my getting this money for them was discussed. Mr. Thackery. If I might be permitted to make a short state- ment — I only want to do it because I believe the record would be in better shape to have it made at this time. At the time of the coun- cil the Indians were about equally divided, about half of them re- maining with the Government, with me as the representative of the Government, in Oklahoma. The rest of them were in Mexico with Bentley or under his control. Representative Burke. What was the rest? Mr. Thackery. Seventy-five. There were 157 allottees living at that time. The act was so worded as to require a council proceeding in which the Indians were to say themselves how this money was to be received. It was not left to any Government officer to give them. Representative Burke. Now, your statement, if that is correct, does not come in there, because he is telling us how he happened to get this fee. Mr. Thackery. He had said that these Indians were about to have to go about 600 miles to Holbrook. Representative Burke. But his statement indicated that that was before the act passed. Mr. Thackery. This was after the act. Representative Burke. But his statement did not so show. Mr. Thackery. The point I wanted to make was that, if the coun- cil had met at Holbrook, while his Indians would have had to go 600 miles, the bunch I represented, under the wording of that act, would have had to go 2,000 or 3,000 miles. It cost the Indians I represented about $7,000. Mr. Bentley. But it was never the intention of Congress that any Indian in Oklahoma should get a dollar; but for the fact it was shown to Congress that this money would be invested in Mexico, no Indian in Mexico would have had a dollar. Had the department kept its hands off, they would all have been in Mexico to-day. Mr. Thackery and his emissaries came to the border and said, " If you put your money in Bentley's hand, you will never get to spend it." Representative Burke. Mr. Chairman, let us get an answer to your question. That was about the $28,000. Was that narrative of events before the appropriation or after? Mr. Bentley. That was after the appropriation was passed. Senator Townsend. What did you do to earn that $28,000? Mr. Bentley. Senator, I will tell you what I did. I had been working persistently to get an act to 'go to the Court of Claims to secure from the Government- the money that it owed these Indians for years before that. I had come here time and again. I had paid a man to come here and represent me. I believe— in fact, I know- that if we had gotten by the Court of Claims probably a million and KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1535 a half would have been recovered. Finally, after all the efforts, a condition arose— our extremity was such— we did not know when this act was passed. Their lands had all been taken from them and this was a lite and death struggle. Finally we got this one appropri- ation, this one pittance of $215,000. Representative Burke. It was $300,000, was it not* Mr Bentley. I think $215,000 and something. I feel that taking a little fee, as I did, the Indians having voted me a mere matter of $28,000, in view of the time I had spenf and the expenses of my own that I had paid, and what might have been recovered, it was a great wrong to me Senator Townsend. Was anybody else interested in getting this claim that the Indians insisted was due them but you ? Mr. Bentley. Senator, there was no one interested except my- self and Mr. Field, other than a man who was well known in Con- gress, and who had the confidence, apparently, of everybody who knew about Indian matters, that I paid time after time to come here and help. The Chairman. Who was that ? Mr. Bentley. Sam Powell. Senator Townsend. What I wanted to ask you was, Were you the pioneers in this movement to get the money for the Indians ? Mr. Bentley. I never knew of anybody else attempting to get it except Mr. Field and myself; that is, to get the amount the Govern- ment owed them. Senator Toavnsend. Was there any attempt at the time you took charge of it to secure this money for the Indians ? Mr. Bentley. I think not. I never knew of any effort until I or Mr. Field made it. Senator Townsend. Did anybody ever claim that the Government would have given this money to the Indians Mr. Bentley. Oh, Senator, the Government denied positively — if I had it I would read you the record where the Commissioner of Indian Affairs said that to give those Indians a dollar would have been a gratuity. Senator Townsend. So that you insist that you and the two gentle- men you have named were solelv responsible for obtaining this $215,000? Mr. Bentley. Why, Senator, I do not know how it could be amy other way. Nobody else ever insisted. Nobody else ever took it up or were able to prove that the Government did owe it to them. If you will read the record Senator Townsend. I do not care to do that. Mr. Bentley. I am referring to it only to show you. In fact, Sena- tor Teller, who did read it and helped ine, said that he, as a lawyer, would say that if the Kickapoos had gone to the Court of Claims they would have recovered not less than $1,800,000. Senator Townsend. You insist, then, that you yourself recovered for the Indians this amount of money, which otherwise would not have been recovered ? , Mr. Bentley. Senator, I have been told fifty times by people who know that but for my efforts they never would never have got a dollar. Senator Townsend. How many years were you working at it i 1536 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentley. Oh, 10 years, I will say, from first to last. Senator Townsend. How many people and who participated in that $28,000? Mr. Bentley. I paid Mr. Field $5,000. I paid Mr. Powell in ex- penses, a few times he had been here, $12,250. Mr. Tiiackeey. He is dead. Mr. Bentley. There is no trouble, however, if he is dead, to prove that I paid the money. Senator Townsend. You then got $12,000 out of it for yourself? Mr. Bentley. I got for myself the difference between $12,250 and $5,000 and $28,875. That was all the pay I got out of it. Senator Townsend. Something over $10,000? Mr. Bentley. Oh, after the Indians had voted on the question of a fee, on what I was to be paid — I had gotten them this money, and it was just like finding it for them. I thought I ought to have 15 per cent. Mr. Thackeey. Did you not ask for 40 per cent ? Mr. Bentley. Never. Mr. Tiiackery. I am sure you asked for 30. Mr. Bentley. I say positively no. I never thought of such a thing. I did feel I ought to have 15 per cent. Some haggle was made about it, and I said, "Here is Capt. Scott, and here is Maj, McLaughlin. They are men of experience and know what fees ought to be, and rather than quibble about it I will take 12| per cent." And the Indians voted it. Now, I want to say further that if you will go through my accounts completely you will find that in dealing with this matter it was not a question of making money ; it was a matter of doing, as men often do, something I wanted to do. Senator Townsend. Have you any other business or occupation? Mr. Bentley. Senator, from the time I took charge of these In- dians as agent until the present hour, with the exception perhaps of a period of six months, I have had no other business whatever. I have had no business connections. I have devoted all my time, year in and year out, all these years, persistently, in behalf of these In- dians. I have been with them months and months, and years even. I have been here in Washington. I was required to go to Mexico City. Officers of the department came and attempted to prejudice the President of Mexico. I have had to follow them backward and forward Senator Townsend. Have you speculated in property, real estate or otherwise ? Mr. Bentley. Of the Indians? Senator Townsend. Of your own. Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; very little. The year I went out of the Indian Service — that was 1901 — I became a director in a railroad company that was building a railroad in Oklahoma. We built 40 miles of road. I made some money out of some townsites. I named and located the city of Okemah, Okla. I suppose that in one way and another I made more money than my salary would have been in six years as Indian agent. Senator Townsend. You devoted some time to that railroad busi- ness? Mr. Bentley. Only a little, and that not like I should. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1537 Senator Townsend. Were you a practicing attorney ? Mr. Bent-ley. Senator, I am an attorney only to this extent- I sought to be admitted to the bar so that I might anywhere on the face of the earth defend these Indians. I never owned a law book. In the technical sense I am not a lawyer. I have a license. Senator Townsend. Did you receive any fees from individual In- dians for anything you have done for them ? Mr. Bent-ley. If any Kickapoo at any time ever paid me a dollar, other than two Kickapoos— there was an instance at Shawnee, Okla., that I want to relate, because it has a very prominent and direct bearing on this subject. Soon after I went out of office- Senator Townsend. You see, Mr. Bentley, you go into so many details. I want you to make this clearly understood, but we will never get through with it if you go into all the details. Mr. Bentley. I will try to be very brief. You have asked me if I have received any fees. Senator Townsend. Have you, or have you not? Mr. Bentley. I did. I received $2,000, as I recollect, $1,000 each from two Indians. My efforts had resulted in getting for them $40,000 for a piece of land where they would have gotten $12,000. I upset another trade where the deeds had been signed and one was pending before the department for $8,000, and the land was put up and advertised and brought $28,300. Senator Townsend. Are those the only two cases where you have received pay from the Indians ? Mr. Bentley. If I have, I can not remember. I do not think any other Indian ever paid me a dollar in the world. Senator Townsend. Do you own any property in Mexico ? Mr. Bentley. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Do you own anv property in the United •States? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. What? Mr. Bentley. I own a farm in the Chickasaw Nation of 320 acres. Senator Townsend. Where did you get that ? Mr. Bentley. I bought it with the money that originally I bor- rowed of two Indian women. Senator Townsend. Did you buy it of the Indians? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; 1 bought it of Choctaw Indians. I never bought any land from Indians for whom I was trustee. Senator' Townsend. I was going to ask that. You never bought any property from the Kickapoos ? Mr. Bentley. I bought one 80 from one Kickapoo, the only land I ever laid any claim to, that I bought and sold. Senator Townsend. Was that title ever questioned in court ? Mr. Bentley. No; not in court, I don't think. The department for a long time claimed that suit would be brought, or that there was not title, or something. But I do not think any suit was ever brought. Senator Townsend. Was that bought since 1906? Mr. Bentley. Away after that. I first took the land in trust, or Mrs. Bentley did, and later I went to the Indian and bought it, and 1 paid him $6,500. 1538 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Townsend. Afterwards? Mr. Bentley. Yes. Senator Townsend. After the complaint had been made? Mr. Bentley. No. As I recollect, there was no complaint about it. Mrs Bentley. mv recollection K first took a warranty deed, and it was one of' those s-even tracts. Later I went and hunted up the Indian and took a quitclaim deed. . Senator Townsend. One of those seven? Which one was it ? Mr. Bentley. That was one that was sold in 1911, away after this melee. Senator Toavnsend. Mrs. Bentley took it as trustee ? Mr. Bentley'. Yes. Senator Townsend. You mean you took it from her then? Mr. Bentley. I took it in this way: I went to the Indian, and said to him, " I failed to sell this hind for you when you wanted me to sell it. Mrs. Bentley has the title. Youcan either pay back the money she has advanced you. or if you will complete the transaction by making an additional deed I will pay you more." Senator Townsend. Which one of those tracts was it? Designate it by the price. I will know it better by that. Mr. Bentley. It was a piece of land that had been allotted to the deceased daughter of a Kickapoo Indian. Senator Townsend. Was that the $3,000 piece? Mr. Bentley-. At the time I took the deeds probably it would not have been worth more than fct.OOO. I was very fortunate in buying that piece of land. I put in $1,000 in Shawnee near that in what they call raising the wind in our country. They started a packing house, and the packing house, and the packing house contributed to a boom. People flecked in, and I got a good price for that piece of land. I paid all that anybody would pay for it at the time I bought it. Senator Townsend. Was that while you were still handling the fund? Mr. Bentley-. No, sir. That was after I had eliminated myself entirely and forever. I had accounted for the funds I had had of theirs, and no longer considered myself their trustee. Senator Townsend. Now t . you took part of this money and went down to Mexico and bought how many acres of land? Mr. Bentley-. It is a piece of country that measures out exactly 6£ miles square. Senator Townsend. Where is the title to that now? Mr. Bentley. It is in the incorporated Kickapoo community of Mexico. Senator Townsend. When was that organized? Mr. Bentley-. Well, it was organized under an act of Congress of some date — of last August. Senator Townsend. Why was it organized? Mr. Bentley-. I don't know what all the reasons were; I had nothing to do with it. Members of Congress originated the idea, prompted perhaps by this. This Indian reservation in Mexico was a white elephant on my hands. I realized I could not hold it always. There would be a disturbance made sometime if I tried to hold it, and it ought to go to anybody other than individuals. I did not know any person I felt like deeding it to. I had assumed this trust KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1539 at their request, and welcomed the proposition that I might deed it to them and get out from under the suspicion of not intending to convey it. Senator Town send. You did not suggest that, did you, Mr. Bentley ? Mr. Bentley. Time and again, Senator. I went to Senator Clapp. I went to all my friends, begging them to help me to divest myself in some way of this title. Senator Townsend. It was in your name, was it not? Mr. Bentley. Yes; to me and Okemah; but it had to be so. The Mexican woman who made that deed would never have made it to an Indian. On the other hand, if she had dared to do so and had known that they wanted to,- they could not have bought it. Since we have drifted to that subject, I want to say that I could have sold that piece of land to the Mormons for the purpose of colonization for $30,000 cash more than I paid for it, and moved the Indians on to another place. I made a great bargain for the Kicka- poos when I bought that piece of land. I dropped in there at a time when an old Mexican widow had to have money — 1907. She had three pieces of land, and she had to sell some one of these three pieces or we would never have gotten that basin. I paid her in actual cash at one time $8,000. I paid various other sums. I put into that land — it was in several pieces, most of it, however, in one piece, but altogether the expense of acquiring it and what I put onto it is in the neighborhood of $20,000. Senator Townsend. Do you have that in your account that you are going to file ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I have a complete itemized account of the different banks through which I transacted this business. Senator Townsend. Have you expended all that $86,200? Mr. Bentley. Senator, I not only have expended that, but, I be- lieve, a little more than $6,000 more. I turned over $21,600 of the remainder of this fund to my cotrustee, and, under the circumstances, that caused me to be very reckless. These two old men here [in- dicating Ah-kis-kuck and TVah-nah-ke-tha] are gamblers. They want money to gamble with. They will go to any length to get money to play monte. They came to Shawnee, Okla., and employed some lawyers, and agreed to give them 25 per cent of this money in my hands to get it away from me. I wanted to retain it; I wanted to buy another piece of land adjoining theirs. I wanted to put away "some of this money for taxes. But I found they had got these attorneys, and had gone into a court that was friendly to a man that had already robbed them of their land in Oklahoma. If I had come within the jurisdiction of the court, service would have been got on me, and the persons who had robbed the Indians would have been in the position of having robbed the Indian of his land, and then of his money, through a corrupt court. So I went around the jurisdiction of the court, went to Mexico, and made a payment of $50 per capita to each and all the Indians and turned over the balance to my cotrustee. ' Senator Townsend. Did you take receipts for these payments? Mr. Bentley. It was always by check, Senator. Senator Townsend. Did you take a receipt? 1540 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentley. The check shows. I could not keep books, because I was in one end of Mexico one month and back in Washington the next. I could not keep books. The only thing I could do was to pay everything by check. Senator Townsend. Your check would not show what you paid the money for, would it? Mr. Bentley. Oh, yes; always. Senator Townsend. How will it show? Mr. Bentley. I make a notation. When I paid Ah-kis-kuck $300 Mexican money " land " was written on that. If I gave him $90, as I did another time, that was an advance out of the fund. Senator Townsend. Now, supposing you should die, or should have died before this account was turned over, and your checks that you had signed were presented, would those checks enable anybody to learn what property you had purchased or what debts you had paid? Mr. Bentley. From time to time I withdraw my checks, and at my leisure — I am not an accountant; I do not know anything about bookkeeping — I made up my account. Senator Townsend. Don't you keep any books at all ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, I did ; I kept them very carefully. I took my checks and made a schedule, from which that statement was made, but in the book I made it much more complete. Here was a check of a certain date for a certain thing. Senator Townsend. Where are your books? Mr. Bentley. My home, Senator, was burned up by somebody in Shawnee. I had two homes there Senator Townsend. So you have not the books? Mr. Bentley. I have not the books, but my wife had the good fortune to grab a telescope that contained my bills and checks accounting for every dollar of that money and some more, but my books were burned up. Senator Townsend. Now, just there; you spent money other than the Indians' money ? You drew checks on the same account. I sup- pose you kept no separate account in the bank of the Indians' money and your money? Mr. Bentley. Senator, I had no business in this city then. I did not go to any expense in the world. Senator Townsend. You have testified that you had $56,000 in bank at one time, and your testimony shows that you had received $37,000 for the Indians. Mr. Bentley. Yes. Senator Townsend. Now, there was a difference between $37,000 and $56,000 that evidently was your money?. Mr. Bentley. The fact's are these: In this awful fight down there after the Indians had been robbed — remember, now, we were raided twice in little more than a year. One officer came one year and threw us all into confusion, and that lost us our wheat crop. The next year the same thing followed. It cost me $1,500 to feed the Indians while I was in prison and keep them out of the hands of these people. Senator Townsend. I am assuming that is the truth. Mr. Bentley. Covering a period of about 18 months I deposited and checked through that bank, covering the period of this account. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1541 Some of this $56,000 was after this rendition here, but most of that 1 can account for— that is in that statement. Altogether, however, there was $56,000.- . ' Senator Townsend. There is nobody else on earth, is there, that could account for this but you? You have no record evidence any- where that would show what was done with that money « Mr Bentley Well, I think there might be some trivial part of it, but I think my checks and my bills— for instance, here is a check to the Armour Packing Co. at El Paso. Anybodv knows that was tor meat for the Indians. You could easily find what those monevs were for. Here is $500 to an attorney. Senator Townsend. What is that property down there in Mexico worth to-day? Mr. Bentley. I could have sold it for gold at one time for $45,000. Senator Townsend. What could you sell it for to-day? Mr. Bentley. Well, Senator, the war conditions have brought about such conditions that it would be unfair to fix a price. Under normal conditions I value that property at $50,000. The Chairman. What did you pay for it? Mr. Bentley. It cost, with the improvements on it, in the neigh- borhood of $20,000. Eepresentative Carter. How much? Mr. Bentley. More than 30,000 acres— 6^ miles square. The Chairman. Is that Mexican? Mr. Bentley. No; that is gold. The first payment was $8,000 gold. I drew a check on the First National Bank of Douglas for that. Senator Townsend. Did you draw any salary from the Indians during any of this time that you were acting as trustee ? Mr. Bentley. No, sir; except this. These Indians had consider- able dead land, as they called it. Their friends had died, and one would come and give me $10,000, perhaps; another perhaps $3,000. It was agreed with the Indians I would pay them no interest; that, in lieu of a salary for my services, I would only charge them the in- terest on their funds. That is the only pay I ever received. Senator Townsend. How much would that amount to? Mr. Bentley. Sometimes I had it deposited in banks where I got 5 or 6 per cent. Sometimes I loaned it as high as 10 per cent. Senator Townsend. How much would that be? Mr. Bentley. It would not amount to much. I don't think I had more than $20,000 that was at interest. All those sums were paid back except one, which I owe to one Indian woman — $800. (The witness here submitted a statement of receipts and disburse- ments of the trust fund under consideration, which was ordered to be inserted in the record and is as follows : ) Abstract of receipts and disbursements of At. J. gentley, trustee for Kickapoo Indians in Mexico. Disbursed through Riggs National Bank, Washington, D. C $32, 273. 94 Disbursed through First National Bank, Douglas, Ariz 20, 016. 33 Disbursed through Border National Bank, Eagle Pass, Tex 1, 579. 37 Disbursed through Bank of Commerce, Shawnee, Okla 17,720.65 Disbursed through Moctezuma Banking Co., Moctezuina, Mexico 851. 94 Disbursed through First National Bank, Tecumseh, Okla 508. 90 Disbursed through American National Bank, El Paso, Tex., and by payments of cash and otherwise 13.726.62 1542 K1CKAP00 INDIANS. Disbursed throuirh F. D. H.ivmore & Co., in addition to sums shown by checks on 'bunk $2. 000. 00 68, 737. 75 Delivered to Okpmab. cotrustee 21,600.00 90, 337. 75 Trust fund 86,273.94 Qua-to-qua. loan to tr st fund 1,900.00 88, 173. 94 &tatcin(n1 with Riiips National Bank of Washington. June S. deposit $10,273.94 Cheek 1, Miss Ruth Field, money borrowed to get Indians to Douglas. 648. 00 Check 2. Miss Eva Field, same purpose 2,213.33 Check 3, B. F. Reveridge, hotel bill for Indians 39.75 Check 4. Mrs. Katie Howe, subsistence, winter 1908 300.00 Cheek 5, W. S. Field, money for support of Indians, winter 1908 and 1909 I . 600.00 Cheek 6, J. H. Slaughter, supplies furnished in Mexico 052.95 Check 7. Reimburse money advanced to delegation for incidentals 50.00 Check 8. Payable to M. .7. F.entley to cover expenses of delegation from Douglas to Washington and return 500.00 Check 9. O. A. Mitseber, notions for Indians 107.22 Check 10, O. A. Mits.lter, loan 2.000.00 Check 11. Jim Deer, for wagon for use of tribe 57.50 Check 12, F. D. Havmore, provisions for Indians 100.00 Check 13, Rachel Kirk 25.00 Check 14. Pas-ko-ma 25.00 Cheek 15, Qua-to-qua 25.00 Check 16, Ah-kis-kuk 12.50 Check 17, Man-ni-e-to 50.00 Check 18, Wah-pe-ebe-qua 25.00 Check 19. Wah-na-ke-tha-hah 40.00 Check 20. Pem-ah-ka-qna 15.00 Check 21, Tom Smith 50.00 Check 22, Wah-pa-ho-qna 25.00 Cheek 23, Pe-qua l 25.00 Cheek 24. Keah-qua-ah-moke 25.00 Cheek 24b. Jim Deer 25.00 Cheek 25. Wah-theek-cone 25.00 Check 26. Jee-na-ko-thet. 25.00 Check 27, Mah-tep-we 25.00 Cheek 28, Pah-ko-tah 25.00 Check 29, W. S. Field, expense to Sonora 100.00 Check 30, Joe Whipple, July 13 200.00 Check 31. Joe Whipple 200.00 Check 32. M. J. Bentley transferred to account as agent First National, Douglas 4,000.00 Check 33, Ben Cooper, storage for Indians 45.00 Check 34, Wah-we-.ih 25.00 Check 35, Ne-pah-hah 25.00 Check 39. Frank Hanna 400.00 Check 40, W. S. Field, clerks' fees in filing seven suits, district court costs for Kickaptoox, Oklahoma County, Okla 105.00 Cheek 41, Miss H. O. Miller, typewriting, preparing petition in 13 suits 13. 00 Cheek 42, W. S. Field, attorney fee for past services 3,000.00 Check 43. James B. Jenkins, assistance and advice in Kickapoo cases_ 25. 00 Cheek 44, Simon Goldberg, clothing for Kickapoos 48.75 Check 45. Henry Lynn, attorney fee 30.00 Check 46. National Hotel, Mar. 1, room 25 days 25.10 Check 47. Mar. 3. Baltimore & Ohio Railroad ticket 27. 85 Cheek 48, Mar. 3. Dr. H. M. Hamblin, loan secured by note ..___ 100.00 Check 49. Mar. 24. W. S. Field, expense on account of call to Sonora by Kickapoos 67.99 KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1543 Statement with Border National Bank, Eagle Pass, Toe Balance OKV70 oq 1908. WS.& August 7, C. J. Schuessler, clothing for Indians $13 25 November 4, Jacob Tomahawk 100 00 November 10, court expense, W. A. Bennett 50 November 10, bank paid telegram 70 December 26, M. J. Bentley, money to hunt witnesses in Mexico 50,00 January 4, deposit 500. 00 January 4, Roman Galan, paid for Noten and Mah-na- she-ka ; see notes attached to check 51. 42 January 4, W. S. Field, fee and expenses self and wit- nesses attending grand jury, Eagle Pass 200. 00 January 5, Mrs. Melancon, meals for Indian witnesses— 3. 25 January 6, telegram 50 January 7, Ah-lds-kuk X). 00 January 7, Kee-ah-tha-com-o-qua, daughter of Ah-kis-kuk_ 10. 00 January 7, Jacob Tomahawk, expense and attendance grand jury, Eagle Pass, self, wife, and nephew 25. 00 January 9, W. S. Field, on account of grand jury and ex- penses witnesses 100.00 January 9, W. S. Field, on account of trip to Sonora and in bringing out witnesses for grand jury 400. 00 January 9, Qua-to-qua, on account of grand jury 15.00 January^ 9, M. J. Bentley, car fare 2 witnesses, Muz- quiz to Eagle Pass 5.00 January 11, Ah-kis-k.uk 90.00 January 12, Qua-to-qua, to apply on tribe's note 5. 00 January 13, Qua-to-qua 5.00 January 13, Qua-to-qua, to reimburse her for fare and witnesses 2. 50 January 14, Wah-tho-con-a, account court, Shawnee 15.00 January 14, Eagle Pass Grocery Co., feeding Indian wit- nesses 14.60 January 14. J. A. Bennett for cartage at Muzquiz, load- ing and care of Indian plunder 5. 90 January 14, T. G. George, 5 tickets for Shawnee In- dian witnesses 90.00 January 7, deposit 1,000.00 January 14, Joseph Clark, expenses himself getting wit- nesses 35.60 January 15, International Dry Goods Co., bedding for Indian witnesses 11.45 January 15, A. Schweitzer, groceries for camp of wit- nesses 4. 45 January 15, J. B. White, beef for Kickapoo camp 18. 00 January 15, Louis Ladner, cooking utensils for Kiekapoos_ 1. 70 January 16, Jaggi, wood for camp 6. 00 January 16, M. J. Bentley, for use of Tah-pah-she and Qua-to-qua, divided equally between them, returning to Sonora 25.00 January 16, T. G. George, 3 tickets, Indians, Eagle Pass to El Paso, returning to Sonora 46. 80 January 16, George Rohleder, board for witnesses 50. 75 January 18, Guy P. Bentley. for expenses car fare to Sonora W0. 00 January 16, M. J. Bentley, for subsistence of Indian wit- nesses 10.00 March 3, Mrs. Lulu Lombard, rent of ground and house for Kickapoo witnesses 21.00 December 26, 1908, M. J. Bentley, reimbursement cash given to Ah-kis-kuk, $40 Mexican 20. 00 1, 579. 37 1, 773. 28 1, 579. 37 Balance on hand 193.91 1544 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Statement with First National Bank, Douglas. FROM MARCH 10 TO SEPTEMBER 9, 1908. March 10, deposit $123.25 March 10, cash for supplies at Douglas and San. Bern $100. 00 April 14, salary to Gostin 10.00 April IS, salary to Gostin 5.00 April 20, feed to mules 8. 25 May 6, suplies for camp 100. 00 May 6, deposit 500.00 May 20, deposit 1,900.00 May 21, John T. Eager, mules, $300 check 175. 00 May 6, W. J. Slaughter, hardware and utensils 50. 00 May 7, L. E. Booker, expenses on account of K. counsel 175. 00 May 20, Brophy Carriage Co., wagon, harness 272. 10 May 21, L. E. Brown, Gostin's salary 75.00 May 21, Joe Whipple 100.00 May 21, Ed. Bowdess, for hauling supplies to K 20. 00 May 23, George Campbell, blacksmithing 9. 50 May 21, T. E. Wilson, groceries for camp 94.45 May 21, Frank Hanna, expenses examining land 25. 00 May 22, Douglas Hardware Co., implements 94. 45 May 21, L. H. Van Tresse, duty on wagons, etc 111.98 May 25, C. M. Hadden, meals for Gostin and K. at Douglas 57. 30 May 23, L. H. Van Tresse, duty and brokerage on buck- board and harness 98.60 May 23, Brophy Carriage Co., repairs on K. harness 13. 50 May 25, Gostin's salary 100. 00 May 26, Garcia Sucerar, groceries 64.35 May 28, George Campbell, blacksmithing 42.50 June 10, Gostin's salary, expenses 50. 00 May 23, Brophy Carriage Co., wagon 130. 50 June 20, Gostin, expense account 37. 82 June 19, Brophy Carriage Co., harness 81. 85 June 20, Brophy Carriage Co., mules 225. 00 June 19, Douglas Hardware Co., tools 50.80 May 29, Gostin's salary, expenses 25.00 June 20. Ben Cooper, storage for K. property 50. 00 June 20, George Campbell, shoeing H. horses 10. 00 June 22, F. E. Wilson, supplies to take in interior 100. 00 June 20, Brophy Carriage Co., repairs on harness 5. 50 June 20, L. S. Van Tresse, duty 39.33 July 13, deposit 4,000.00 July 13, expenses perfecting land title 200.00 July 14, seed and supplies for Tomachopo Ranch 100. 00 July 14, Pam-e-thot 250. 00 July 16, purchase Tomachopo 8, 000. 00 July 16, Moctezuma Banking Co., fees, power of attorney. ' 16^ 00 July 16, Moctezuma Banking Co., stamps and notary fees_ 262. 95 July 16, Moctezuma Banking Co., K. titles examination— 100. 00 July 20, deposit 16 qo July 20, deposit 10,00o!o0 July 21, Richardson & Dean, attorneys' fee 25. 00 July 27, Joe Whipple 300. 00 July 21, W. A. Bennett, interpreter 5' 00 July 21, John W. Gostin, traveling expenses 25^00 August S, M. R. Lee, payment of note, use of 1, 328 53 August S, Okemah (Moctezuma), K 100.25 July 21, Gostin, traveling expenses 25 00 August 10, Joe Whipple 23^83 August 11, Perry Rodkey, loan 225.00 August 24, Joe Whipple, for Pem-e-pah-no-mi 5. 00 September 2, J. H. Everest, attorney's fee, Oklahoma 100. 00 1, 837. 61 4, 677. 52 1, 837. 61 Balance on hand 2,839.91 KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1545 FROM SEPTEMBER 9 TO NOVEMBER 17, 1908. Forward , 1 $2, 839. 91 November 16, deposit 5,000.00 September 21, Nan-ni-toke $10.00 September 5, W. O. Douglas, attorney fee 25, 00 September 21, F. D. Haymore, apply on Kickapoo account- 500. 00 November 4, Pas-ke-na 25. 00 October 2, Joseph Clark, return of expense money 100. 00 October 15, ticket agent, Shawnee, 2 tickets Kickapoo 89. 20 November 2, Nan-ni-e-to (male) 45.00 November 4, Tah-pah-hah 25. 00 November 4, Pum-y-tum-moke 25. 00 November 4, Mah-tep-we 1 25. 00 November 4, Ah-kis-kuk 45.00 Voucher No. 4, check Ma-ka-se-ah in suit — Tecumseh 75. 00 Voucher No. 6, check to doctor In suit — Ma-ka-se-ah .50. 00 Voucher No. 8, check Nan-ni-tokc 25. 00 1, 064. 20 7, 839. 91 1, 064. 20 6, 775. 71 FROM NOVEMBER 17 TO JANUARY 16, 1909. Forward $6, 775. 71 F. D. Haymore, for work on ditch November 7 $150. 00 November 2, Wah-nah-ke-tha-hah 25. 00 November 2, Chah-ke-she 25. 00, November 2, Wah-theck-ke-na 50.00 November 6, Ah-na-tha-hah-qua 25. 00 November 5, Rachel Kirk 25- 00 November 4, Ah-che-che 25. 00 July 21, Charles Valencia, rent of house 5. 00 November 4, Okernah, taxes 19- 50 November 4, Wah-po-ho-ko 12. 50 November 17, Critoval Davila, corn 45.54 November 28, F. D. Haymore, general supplies 1, 000. 00 November 7, Pemapahhona 6. 25 November 10, A. D. Vanencia, corn 10. 75 November 5, Noten, horse £>-00 November 6, Pah-e-nah f?- 00 November 5, Ke-ah-kee-quah f>- 00 November 28, Zerua Davila, Gostin's salary 44. t>^ December 3, Na-na-chi-skin-no-quah oXn oa December 5, F. D. Haymore, labor on ditch ^00. ou November 2, Mexican for beef J- °o December 15, Ah-che-che, saddle for use of tribe 12. 50 November 10, Demencia Gartari, corn *>£ w November 6, Ke-ah-quah-moke -- ;»-w December 14, Carlus Loaza, examining titles -,-nnn November 28, Charles Valencia, Gostin's salary 150. w November 23, E. M. Webb, surveying,— v^l.— V 3 XX December 12, Antonio Samenego, land purchase, additional- 500. 00 December 12, Moctezuma Banking Co., expenses perfect- ing title, additional land VT'aT' December 26, Mrs. R. Bahert, for lodging and feeding Kickapoos 4 r' 4 o December 18, C. Davila, com *£ *° December 18, Mexican for beef ^ w 2, 825. 74 1,000.00 January 6, deposit , 7, 775. 71 2, 825. 74 4, 949. 97 1546 KICKAPOO INDIANS. FROM JANUARY 6 TO APRIL 3, 1909. Forward $4,949.97 January 25, deposit 1,000.00 December 13, beef for camp $12. 50 December 14, (Jarasie R. Davavlia, corn for camp 10. 00 December 15, Ah-che-ehe, payment on saddle 12. 50 November 28, Senora Zavila, Gostin's salary 275.00 December 14, Senora Zavila, corn 15.94 November 28. Senora Zavila, chargeable to Gostin's salary- 75.00 January 30, 1!)09, W. W. Ives, tickets, 4 Indians 66.00 January 16. J. W. Gostin, alfalfa seed, sorghum 100.00 December S. Perqua 25.00 January 19. J. H. Wahl, attorney fee, court. Tecumseh 50.00 Januarv 19, Pen-e-tho, return of cash borrowed for use of Indians 250. 00 Januarv 13, J. H. Everest, attorney fee, United States court 300. 00 November 5, Noten 5.00 February 23, F. D. Haymore, cash and supplies furnished for January, 1907, as per statement rendered 345.00 December 18, Ne-pah-hah 25. 00 December 14. Patricia Garcia, horse for Na-me-pesh-qua_ 27. 50 December 14, Christabol Davila, corn for tribe 29. 86 November 2, Ke-na-ko-thet 45.00 January 10, YV. S. Pendleton, expense, Kahkahtophe 25. 00 December 14. Mrs. Zozaza, board bill, K. Bacerac 7.00 December 15, Ah-che-ohe, saddle, part pay 25.00 January 19. Wa-la-he-ah-she 50.00 January "0, Joseph Clark, time and service procuring wit- nesses 25. 50 December 11. YV. A. Bennett, surveying 25.00 January 21. draft on Douglas to pay J. Jones, Del Rio 500. 00 January 21, Pa-ma-keth-o, payment 100.00 2, 427. 22 5, 949. 97 2, 427. 22 3, 522. 75 March 3, F. D. Haymore. subject to Okemah's indorsement. 1, 000. 00 March 1, W. S. Field, expense of self and others, Sonora and return '_ 450.00 March 3, Qua-to-qua 100.00 March 3, J. W, Gostin, to be indorsed by Okemah, to pay for ditch work 600.00 March 3, certified check to guarantee bond for costs in Kah-kah-to-the-qua case 100.00 December 14, John Gostin, expense on account of trip and transportation of surveyor February 14, Mrs. Greentree, room for witnesses March 1, T. E. Wilson, groceries March 1, Miller Mitscher Co., Gostin's salary March 1, W. S. Pendleton, attorney fee 2, 494. 75 3, 522. 75 2, 494. 75 Balance on hand 1,028.00 Moctczuma Banking Co. of Hoctezuma. Mexico. 1908. December 16, deposited $10,000.00 January 16, paid through bank, taxes $14. 00 paid stamps, fees, Samamiego 195. 75 telegram 1.27 stamps 5.00 January 2, for surveying and examination of titles 150. 00 January 29, withdrew $1,000 for deposit in Douglas 2, 000. 00 20.00 7.25 63.00 4.50 150.00 KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1547 February 6. paid Banking Co., services procuring addi- tional land ,..,,,,. ,,,. February S, bank paid hotel bill for K * ?' - February 12. cost of confirmation of dVed~"inTou7f 15 00 ■»r . •, . P a y ment to Samamiego on laud 1 000 00 March J. bank paid taxes for 1909 "I™"" m 30 3. 703. 88 $10, 000. 0>» 3, 703. 88 Mexican money 2)6,296^12 Balance on hand 3~118~06 Statement with First National Bank, Tecumseh, OJcla. January, 1909. Deposited * 776 3> Drew cash for court purposes $554 00 Paid district clerk, check 2. 00 Other checks 12! 00 568. 90 770. 32 568. 90 Balance on hand 207 42 Statement with Bank of Commerce, Shawnee Okla 1908. June 15, deposit $10,000.00 deposit 10, 000. 00 Joe Whipple $25.00 paid Border National 7.000.00 June 16, J. H. Everest, note on mortgage 4,067.09 June 17, Joe Whipple 100.00 Dad Sparks, Indian meals 14.55 Eagan note 4,037.26 W. W. Ives, taxes, court, etc 1,000.00 June 27, 3 certificates for $1,000 each, and one for $761.10, afterwards deposited in Tecumseh' First National 761. 10 July 29, Okemah 100.00 August 10, deposit 100.00 20, 100. 00 20. 100. 00 PAID FROM PERSONAL ACCOUNT WITH SAME BANK. April 8, court $100. 00 April 10, Gostin's salary 5.00 April 11, drew cash on account of court 50.00 May 17, transferred cash to Gostin for general expenses 125.00 April 27, fine for Indian ,. 10.00 July 28, ticket for Indian 33. 75 1909. January 2, Joe Clark, expense on account of procuring witnesses 100. 00 January 22, typewriting 2.00 January 23, Kah-kah-to-the quah 25.00 ticket for Indian 27.00 January 25, cash to Ah-ke-na-ma-tho 30.00 January 27, Joe Murdock, court 8.60 supplies for Indians 24.80 M. J. Bentley, on account incidental expense, court, Tecumseh 10. 00 clerk district court, costs 50.00 February 8, Ma-ta-se-ah 19- 60 paid horseshoeing bill; bill attached 22.00 paid W. W. Ives, certificate of deposit Bank of Com- merce, $1,000; draft, $500 1,500.00 1548 KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1909. September 25, drew through Bank of Commerce personal account American National, El Paso, to pay expenses of trip to Sonora, self and Indians $200.00 paid through American National Bank, per account Orson P. Brown, transportation of Indians 20.00 paid cash to Brown, same purpose 10.00 provision and subsistence in cash 15. 00 paid July 3, 1908, G. W. W. Zozaza, subsistence and lodging for Field, Gostin, civil engineer, on account of inspecting land for Indians; see check July 3, 1908 38. 00 check American National, J. J. Boyd, stipend for bribe 92. 50 November 4, horse for use of tribe, J. J. Boyd, by check 100.00 June 27, check American National, typewriting, Ruth Wil- liams 4. 80 paid Armour Packing Co., through American Na- tional, for meat, Oct. 20, 1908 107.41 telegram ordering meat . 50 July 25, paid Armour Packing Co., through American Na- tional 98.77 July 10, check to J. W. Slaughter, cash advanced to Frank Hannan, account trip to Bacerac 25. 00 paid to Willard Hotel, Shawnee. Feb. 4, board Indian witnesses 2. 80 paid Miller Mitscher Co., cash, saddle chargeable to Wathecona 10. 00 bridle for same, cash 2. 50 packing case for checking articles purchased and transported to Indians, Oklahoma City to Douglas. 6. 00 dray . 50 paid to blacksmith, Casas Grandes, shoeing K. horses Nov. 28, 190S 4.50 paid Johnson & Dickson, clothes for Te-ne-pah-hone, see bill 20.75 paid Frank I-Ianna, by deposit, Banco Minero, Juarez, Mexico, reimbursement for option paid on land; see certificate attached 200.00 paid J. A. Young, Dublan, Mexico, through Ameri- can National, for feeding Indian stock, January and February 40.00 paid Dublan Mercantile Co., in cash, supplies for K 130. 00 horse for Qua-to-qua 30.00 paid Boyd's restaurant, December, 1908, meals for Indians 13. 75 paid cash to Nan-ni-toke, July 21, 1908 5.00 hotel for Nan-ni-toke 1.00 ticket, Douglas, Ariz., to Shawnee, Okla_! 33.75 paid myself balance due from prior settlement, see committee report, page 1706 8,060.09 paid myself salary for period May 18, 190S, to May 19, 1909 1,500.00 paid myself per diem of $2 per day in lieu of sub- sistence 730. 00 paid transportation, three trips to Mexico; tickets, $44.60 133. 80 Pullman fare, each trip, $4.50 13. 50 transportation in Mexico, three trips from railroad to camp and return, $15 per trip 45.00 three trips, car fare in Mexico, $9.90 each 29. 70 cash used at Tomachopo, taken in person by me, November, 1909, and used for labor, necessary items paid for in cash 480.00 13, 726. 62 KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1549 Cash advanced in settlements in payment of Kickapoo debts since turning 'bal- ance of commwnity fund over to cotrustee (Okemah). Since turning over to cotrustee, paid to Mah-kah-se-ah $799. 00 Paid to M. R. Lee for Kickapoos 1,285.10 Advanced court expenses in Wah-nah-ka-tha-hah case 565. 00 Paid taxes and other expenses on account of Kickapoos in Mexico 914. 00 Oar fare and subsistence for Kickapoos, Mexico to Shawnee and return 105.00 3, 668. 15 Amount expended and paid to cotrustee 90,337.75 Total amount expended to date 94.005.90 Trust fund $86, 273. 94 Qua-to-qua, loan to trust fund 1, 900. 00 88, 173. 94 Mitscher notes, credited twice 2,000.00 Refund by Shepherd 400.00 90, 573. 94 Paid in excess of trust fund 3,431.98 Heretofore there has been some controversy over an item in my account oJ $3,000 paid to Walter S. Field as an attorney fee for services rendered the Kickapoo Indians, which I paid out of the community fund, the contention being that I should have paid this $3,000 out of my fee received from the other band of Kickapoos, known as Oklahoma Kickapoos, and who voted Mr. Thackery their trustee. The only claim by me personally from the Kickapoo Indians in Mexico would be the sum of $431.96, conceding that Mr. Hanan, Senator La Follette's secretary and the attorney for the Kickapoos, might be correct. That there may be no controversy whatever, I yield this point, though I believe I was correct in my action in the payment referred to. M. J. Bentlet. Senator Townsend (referring to the statement submitted by th« witness) . That helps me out on this. It says here, " Paid my own salary for period May 18, 1908, to May 19, 1909, $1,500." Mr. Bentlet. Yes ; that is when I quit. That was the last year I was with the Kickapoos. Senator Townsend. It appears, then, you were drawing a salary? Mr. Bentlet. Never but the one year; the last year I was there I paid myself salary and expenses, and that is all I ever was paid; and I had no interest in any fund or anything else. Senator Townsend. Did you allow yourself any charges for that T68.r ? Mr. Bentlet. I allowed $2 a day for hotel bills in lieu of subsist- ence. Of course, I charged up car fare from time to time. Senator Townsend. That was the only salary you ever received as salary? .,, „ . . Mr Bentlet. The only charge you will find anywhere any time. Senator Townsend. But you had the interest on the Indians' m Mr 7 BENTLET. Oh, for a time I had the use of probably $20,000 of their money. I made some little money out of it. Senator Townsend. You invested their money, did you, for your- inn S6 Mr Bentlet. In this way: I gave them my note for their money. For instance, I had about $6,000 of one old widow's money, and she 35601— pt 13— 14 6 , ;;c7 1550 KICKAPOO INDIANS. had notes of $500 each coming due each six months, and I paid them one after another, $1,000 a year. Senator Townsend. You were acting as trustee and held this fund as trustee, and then you took notes from the parties ? Mr. Bentley. I gave my note. Senator Townsend. I should say you gave your note to the parties whose money you had ? Some of the parties. Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Did you not use any money for your own benefit aside from that you gave your notes for ? Mr. Bentley. There was no tribal fund then, Senator. At that time these were individual moneys, just like you would loan me a sum of money or leave it with me in trust, that I would do as I pleased with because I had to pay it back. Senator Townsend. You had to pay it all back, then, that you held as trustee? Mr. Bentley. I have paid all the money I ever held as trustee, and all the money I ever held as trustee to the individuals except $800. Senator Townsend. Now, did the Indians ever receive from you any interest on any of this $86,000 which you had which was not expended directly for them? Mr. Bentley. No; for I never drew any interest on it. Senator Townsend. What do you mean by saying that you had it out at interest at 5 or 6 per cent ? Mr. Bentley. Senator, that was individual Kickapoo money that I held. Senator Townsend. Up to $20,000 ? Mr. Bentley. I think a little more, perhaps, for a little time. The ■ Indians were very fickle; they would not let you keep their money very long. I kept it for them as long as I could. I made them take as little of it as I could, because if you did not in a few weeks it would be gone. Senator Townsend. If I understood you correctly, Mr. Bentley, Mr. Field received $5,000 of that $28,000 fee Mr. Bentley. That is a question. When I came to Washington after I gave up the trusteeship I turned the balance of the fund in my hands over to my cotrustee and came here for settlement, as I had said to the committee I would do. Senator Townsend. When was this ? Mr. Bentley. That was some two years ago. It was a disputed item whether I should have paid Mr. Field out of my fee or have paid him the $3,000 I did out of the Kickapoo fund. That was a disputed item. My checks and vouchers show that I had overpaid the $86,000 by that amount, still leaving a balance of $1,000 or so due me Mr. Thackeey. May I suggest one point there? The council pro- ceedings were 1 in writing involving the disposition of this $215 ; ,000. If I remember rightly, that sets out definitely that the 12£ per cent which went to ham — it should be understood that that must pay all attorneys' fees of every description. Mr. BENiiiET. That was any attorneys' fees of any description re- lating to the- getting of that money. Senator Townsend. Go on with your explanation. I would rather you would not interrupt. KIOTCAPOO INDIANS. 1551 Mr. Bentley. I wanted to clear my hands of this thing. I had worked for years for nothing. I had left my wife and family there alone. I was in bad health. Senator Townsend. Now, I am going to assume that is so. I do not want to question your motives in that way. Mr. Bentley. To get this thing off my hands and have no contro- versy with anybody, I conceded that I would consider that as paid out of my fee — the $3,000. And therefore, conceding that, it leaves this account overpaid $2,000 or $3,000 actually. I settled this at a time I could not get to my books. Senator Town send. You testified a little while ago that out of this $28,000 you paid Mr. Field $5,000, and paid somebody else $12,000 and something? Mr. Bentley. $12,250. Senator Townsend. Now, I want to know if that is all you paid Mr. Field? Mr. Bentley. That is all that I have ever paid him out of that fund — out of my fee. Senator Townsend. Have you paid him out of any other Indian moneys anything more? Mr. Bentley. Mr. Field has made numerous trips to old Mexico during these various raids and prosecutions and persecutions down there, and I paid him from time to time when he came, sometimes his expenses and a couple of hundred dollars, sometimes as much as $500. It Avas nothing that had anything to do with this $215,000. It was services rendered in land cases and litigation. Senator Townsend. Now, as trustee, have you received money from the Indians other than that $86,200? Have you taken their money that they have earned or accumulated in the process of their work down there, farming, stock raising, etc. ? Have jou taken that money also as their trustee? . Mr Bentley. No, sir ; I have never had anything to do with their affairs there in Mexico in that kind of way. They transact their own business as individuals. Senator Townsend. Was that in your account? These checks that constitute your account simply show your transactions with them as represented by the $86,200? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. , . Senator Townsend. That is exactly what your account stands tor, is it? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. . , Senator Townsend. Now, the other moneys that you have received from them you have borrowed and given your note lor* Mr. Bentley. Individuals, and paid them back. Senator Townsend. Have you mixed that money with your own?- Mr. Bentley. No, sir. „ Senator Townsend. Have you kept it ma separate account^ Mr Bentley What I mean is. this, I have had— for instance at the time S account in this Affairs of the Mexican Kickapoo In- ^E^SLStivrtaE. Let me ask you a question there .The $86 200 that wlnt into your hands as trustee was after the $28,000 fad been deducted, was It not ? That was the net am-? Mr. Bentley. The total amount received by me was SfeSb^^.y*. 1552 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Representative Burke. That was after the $28,000 had been de- ducted ? Mr. Bentley. Yes. I had nothing to do with the deduction. Representative Buhke. Out of the $28,000 you gave Powell $12,250, and you gave Mr. Field $5,000, did you not ? Mr. Bentley. Well Representative Burke. Did you or did you not? Mr. Bentley. I don't know ; it is a question. I did not intend to. I only intended to give him $2,000, but it was said that I should not have paid him more out of the community fund. Representative Burke. If you did not give him $5,000, then you must have $3,000 more yourself than you stated here awhile ago. Mr. Bentley. Well, I have overpaid the $86,000 by several thou- sand dollars. For the purpose of a settlement I was willing to con- cede that I should have paid it out of my fee. I don't know any other way to explain it. Representative Burke. I want to ask you now, as a matter of fact, if one of the first checks that you drew on this $86,000 was a check of $3,000 to Mr. Field for past services? Mr. Bentley. No. Representative Burke. Then, this account is not correct. Mr. Bentley. It surely was not. Representative Burke. I want to call your attention to this item on the first page of your account. [Handing the statement to the wit- ness.] Mr. Bentley. The first check Representative Burke. Not the first check ; it is on the first page. Mr. Bentley. It may be on the first page, but it is not the first thing I paid. Representative Burke. I understand that ; it is among the first. The Chairman. What date is that ? Representative Burke. It was in June. Mr. Bentley. It may have been after June. I have an idea it was in August that I gave that check. It was not at that time, I know ; it was away afterwards. Senator Townsend. Did you buy any stock for the Indians, or im- plements, or anything, with that $86,200? Mr. Bentley. Oh, I bought mules, horses and wagons, and har- ness. Senator Townsend. Can you tell from your account how much you spent for horses, mules, and wagons? Mr. Bentley. Just exactly. If you will pardon me, and I may have that, I will show you. Senator Townsend. If it shows that, that is all I wanted to know. Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; it shows exactly there — so many dollars paid to such a man for wagon or harness. It shows what it was for. Senator Townsend. Does this account show how much of this $86,200 you deducted — which I am going to concede you had the right to do — for money expended for these Indians? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. And when ? Mr. Bentley. It shows exactly. Senator Townsend. Does this account show when? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir ; I think you will find the date there. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1553 Senator Town send. June 8, it says, but no other date. Mr. Bentley. That was probably paid at some other date. I dis- bursed this money through so many banks Senator Townsend. The first two or three pages there is no date at all. Mr. Bentley. Of course, the stenographer neglected, probably, to put that on there. Senator Townsend. Do the Indians owe you anything now? Mr. Bentley. I think they owe me about $3,000; maybe $3,500. Senator Townsend. Can you tell whether they do or not? Mr. Bentley. Yes ; the way I figure it they do. Senator Townsend. How can you tell? Mr. Bentley. I think I beat myself out in my settlement I figured myself out of $3,800. I had borrowed from individual In- dians — for instance, here was one woman I owe $1,900 of borrowed money. I expended all that money for all the Indians. There are others I owned money that I had expended for the Indians, some $4,000. When I received the $86,000 I should have paid all of that. Where I had taken the individual Indian's money and used it for all the Indians and none of it in any way myself, of course, it should have been paid out of that general fund. But in the confusion of the time when I tried to close up my account and turn it over to my cotrustee to keep this from going into the court's hand I overlooked that. I never paid but $250 of that out of the $86,000. I should have paid four thousand and some ninety-six or forty-six dollars. Senator Townsend. You were depositing money at different times ? Mr. Bentley. Yes. Senator Townsend. Money that you had received from some source. Do you know where you received that money? Mr. Bentley. I kept a very careful account. If I owed Mary Pen-e-tho $4,000, and if I had her money in a certain bank there and I wanted it for the Kickapoos, why, I charged that up to the general fund, and naturally when I paid Mary back I would take it out of that and pay it. Senator Townsend. Did you take up the $86,200 as one side of your ledger account, and all the money you expended on the other side? Mr. Bentley. Surely. Senator Townsend. Now, you had more than $86,200, hadn't you? You kept depositing money you received from different sources, so that you received more than $86,200? Mr. Bentley. You see, Senator, this became a separate and dis- tinct account. After I got the $86,000 I never received from any source any money except that a woman put $1,900 into the fund, and you will find that charged to myself there in this account. Senator Townsend. In looking it over the thing that bothers me is that there is an opportunity here— I am not saying that you have been dishonest ; I do not know, but it looks to me as if there is an oppor- tunity here for keeping accounts in such a manner that it would be absolutely impossible to find out whether they have been correctly kept or not. You have mingled moneys back and forth. Mr. Bentley. Senator, I have had no business of my own. I have been in no business. 1554 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Townsend. Oh, but you have. Mr. Bentley. Not during- the time I have been handling this money; no business whatever. I have had no partners. I have had no other interest. Senator Townsend. You have borrowed money from them and given notes. Mr. Bentley. Not since I got this money; absolutely no. Senator Townsend. That was before? Mr. Bentley. That was before. No, sir; absolutely no. I got money, Senator, when I was moving these people — that six months of moving. Senator Townsend. That was before you received the money? Mr. Bentley. Surely. I got money anywhere I could. I even came clear here to Washington. I came here and went to 10 Senators of the United States and got letters from them. I went to the Mexi- can ambassador and got letters to the governor of the State of Chi- huahua. Senator Townsend. That answers my question as far as that is con 1 cerned. I understood you had borrowed some money, and I had sup- posed you had been borrowing money from these Indians and giving- them 3 r our note for it since you got this money. Mr. Bentley. No. Senator Townsend. None at all ? Mr. Bentley. Absolutely no. There were some notes out, pos- sibly, that I have paid off. The Chairman. You were asked by Representative Carter about some telegrams which you sent and received in 1906. It is getting pretty late, but there are a number of questions I wanted to ask you about some telegrams. I shall be glad to have you return later : or answer the questions now. Mr. Bentley. As you please. The Chairman. Did you send a telegram of May 30, 1906. from Muzquiz, to Chauncey A. Richardson, United States Senate, Wash- ington, D. C., as follows: Wire me present status Indian bill. Mexican authorities did me. M. J. Bentley. Mr. Bentley. That must be a misprint. I never sent a dispatch that the Mexican authorities did me. That is a misprint. I may have sent him some telegram, but not intending to use that language. What date is that? The Chairman. May 30, 1906. Mr. Bentley. No ; I think that is an error in translation or some- thing. The Chairman. To refresh your memory, on the day that the order was made by the jefe politico to put you 'in jail down there, do you recall sending a telegram to Richardson? Mr. Bentley. I may have. The Chairman. Who was Richardson ? Mr. Bentley. Chauncey Richardson is a lawyer here in Washing- ton. He has an office here somewhere. He is a little lame fellow. Representative Burke. Clerk to the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1555 Mr. BENmr. I think at that time, or soon before it, he had been clerk of the Senate committee, and I am rather inclined to think he was yet. The Chairman. The Senate Committee on Indian Affairs ? Mr. Bentley. Yes. The Chairman. Why were you communicating with him ? Mr. Bentley. Probably because I wanted to know about something up here or to tell him something about conditions. I was very friendly with Mr. Bichardson. He is a nice clever little fellow. The Chairman. Do you remember receiving a telegram dated Washington, May 31, 1906 : M. J. Bentley. Muzqui,:: Bill not passed yet. What is situation there? Sam Powell. Mr. Bentley. Candidly, I had forgotten, but I am not surprised to learn that there was such a telegram, because Mr. Powell, while he had no great interest in that matter in any way whatever, yet I know he had a very kindly interest in the outcome of it. The Chairman. That was the Sam Powell that received the $12,000 and some? Mr. Bentley. Yes. He was working with me on the Kickapoo claim matter. The Chairman. Do you remember sending the following telegram : Muzquiz, May ;.'/, 1906. Sam Powell, House Indian Committee: Mexican authorities eject wolves from Kickapoo c;mip. My control absolute. M. J. Bentley. Mr. Bentley. Yes. If the Senator will pardon me. I will explain how I came to send that. (At the request of the witness the clerk to the commission read the following telegrams, pages 26 and 27, Senate hearings of 1907:) Ada. Ind. T., May 23, 1906. Henby M. Telleb, Care of United States Senate, Washington, D. C: Senate amendment 136, line 15, strike out " sale and incumbrance " and add the word " leasing." Indian agent in Mexico trying to defeat the object, of Congress with large party of white men. If permitted to sell, plan failure. If permitted to lease, best interest of Indians subserved. Wire quick ticket agent, Denton, Tex. My arrest planned by Government— help enemies rob Indians of their lands. On way Mexico. M. J. Bentley. Ada, Ind. T.. May 23. 1906. W. S. Field, 620 Colorado Building, Washington, D. C: ' See my telegram to Teller. Thackery, Outcelt cooperating with Grimes. My a'rrest planned so they can rob Indians. Knock out " sale " and insert " leasing." M. J. Bentley. Mr Bentley. Those two telegrams were sent here, notwithstanding my winter's work. When I learned Mr. Thackery had gone down there I knew it was the same old fake investigation. They would comedown there in the advance of the passage of that law to defeat its object. I wired everybody. I did not want that act passed when it was passed. I tried to defeat it. 1556 KICKAPOO INDIANS. The Chairman. I thought you said you initiated the passage of it? Mr. Bentley. I did, until I found it was going to be the same old scheme over again. The Chairman. You discovered in advance of the passage of the ret that it was going to be used as a means of defrauding the Indians? Mr. Bentley. When I learned that Outcelt and Thackery had gone down there — an agent of the department had put me in prison the year before and had me disgraced, and I knew it would be a repeti- tion. There was nothing to investigate. Every Indian had testified before. It was just a scheme to get down there and defeat these In- dians in their purpose to acquire a home. Therefore I sent these telegrams in the hope of getting these men who believed this thing should be done to defeat it. But they would not listen, and the In- dians were robbed. No doubt I did probably send a telegram to Powell to go and see others and knock it out, rather than have the Indians subjected to any such danger. The Chairman. Did you receive this telegram: Washington, D. C, May 30, 1906. Mabtin J. Bentlet, Muzquiz: Conference report before Senate not yet confirmed, but in no danger. Moses E. Olapp. Mr. Bentley. Yes. The Chairman. Was that in response to a telegram you had sent to him ? Mr. Bentley. I do not think so. The Chairman. Do you know how he came to wire you that? Mr. Bentley. No, sir ; I really do not. The Chairman. Had you wired Senator Clapp about the confer- ence report? Mr. Bentley. If I did, I do not recall it. I had wired him to knock out this amendment. The Chairman. Did you have any answer from him as to whether the amendment had been knocked out? Mr. Bentley. I think I had an answer from somebody that had been to see him — he appeared to think I must have " buck ague." The Chairman. Did you send this : Mtjzquiz, Mexico, May 25, 1906. Sam Powell, National Hotel, Washington, D. C: Looks good here. Big council to-morrow. Indians standing pat. M. J. Bentlet. Mr. Bentley. I expect I did. That is exactly what I would have done, because I found the Indians were determined in their purpose. Then if the prestige of the United States had not been used to break down the defense I had there, pitting me there alone, I still would have protected those Indians. The Chairman. Did you get this telegram: Washington, D. C, June 21, 1906. M. J. Bentley, Muzquiz, Mexico: Indian bill signed. No change. Attend to matter of checks by wire. Sam Powell. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1557 Mr. Bentley. I may have. The Chairman. What was the matter of the checks? Mr. Bentley. I had agreed with Mr. Powell when I left Washing- ton to collect some money I had in Oklahoma, to pay him some expense money here. The Chairman. You had him employed, had you ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Employed on a salary? Mr. Bentley. My agreement with Powell was not on a salary, and it was a favorable agreement — to pay him certain expenses. It was expense money or something. I do not recall just the particu- lars, but I was to deposit some money somewhere. The Chairman. Did you get this telegram : Washington, June 23, 1906. M. J. Bentley, Muzquiz, Mexico: ■ Answer former message. We will know what to do. Tired. Sam Powell. Mr. Bentley. I have no recollection of that telegram. The Chairman. Did you keep the telegrams, Mr. Bentley, that you received? Mr. Bentley. Senator, my papers in the raid in Mexico were almost all of them lost. One great trunk full there — I never got it. The Chairman. Now, coming forward in the matter of the tele- grams, did you send this telegram ? Washington, D. C, March 12, 1908. Lee Patrick, Care of J. B. Charles, Stroud, Ohla.: Thackery wanting trouble, getting Kickapoos to protest, council his office to- morrow, call him off. ,,-,-« M. J. Bentlet. Mr. Bentley. I think I did. The Chairman. Did you also send this telegram : Washington, D. C, March 12, 1908. J. B. Chables, Stroud, OHa.: Senator says to have Thackery called off to-morrow. bentley Mr. Bentley. I think I did. The Chairman. What Senator did you refer to I Mr. Bentley. Well, I really don't remember. The Chairman. What did the Senator have to do with it ( Mr Bentley. I would have to refresh my memory. The Chairman. You remember sending the telegram? Mr Bentley. I remember wiring to Charles and to Patrick both- er rather, my impression is now that the chances are the telepam to Charles was a bluff of some kind. We had a Kickapoo Senator here at that time, and it was probably him I had reference to. The Chairman. Who was he? Mr Bentley. Johnny Mine. ...,,,, .1. The Chairman. Your mention of " Senator " in that telegram then referred to a Kickapoo " Senator " ? Mr. Bentley. Yes ; I think so. ' The Chairman. What makes you think so* 1558 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentley. I have not any reason to believe that there was any condition, any reason why I would have any right to make any such reference. The Chairman. That is what I am trying to find out. Mr. Bentley. I don't think I had any other in mind probably. The Chairman. According to your statement, you were trying to beat the game ? Mr. Bentley. I would not want to play cards with a man and let him beat me. The Chairman. Keferring to the matter of your transactions with individual Indians, did you borrow $2,000 from Emma Garland? Mr. Bentley. At this time, from memory, I would hardly want to attempt to say. I can tell you, however, the termination of the Emma Garland transaction. I think originally, Senator, I had more of her money than that, because I paid her $1,000 at one time. The Chairman. Don't you remember whether you borrowed $2,000 from her ? Mr. Bentley. I think I had more than that. When she died I think I might have had to use here, it seems to me, seventeen, eight- een, or maybe nineteen hundred dollars. I never borrowed any ; she came and left it at my home — I can not say definitely, but I think $3,000, perhaps $4,000. The Chairman. Did you give her this receipt : Due Emma Garland the sum of $2,000. Payable at convenience of payor. M. J. Bentley. Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir ; but I want to explain the conditions under which I paid that. Emma Garland had my note in proper form for $2,000. At the time I gave it to her I paid her $300 or $400 in American money, and she went into a restaurant, and somebody stole her purse, and my note went with it. One day I met her in the customhouse on the Mexican side at Ciudad Porfirio Diaz, and she wanted another note. I said, " Now, I will give you a receipt or something to show for your money." And that is the second note or receipt, or whatever it might be called. The Chairman. While that fight was going on about the $215,000 you had a libel suit against Thackery, did you not ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you offer to dismiss that suit if Thackery would let you control the council ? Mr. Bentley. I don't know whether I did or not. The Chairman. Why don't you know % Mr. Bentley. I don't know, for the reason — I am not clear on that. I think that J. B. Charles, or some of his friends, came and made negotiations, and there was so much confusion at that time I don't know just what was proposed. I won't, be certain. I know one thing, that I would have done almost anything in the world to have got for those Indians the full benefit of the $215,000. The Chairman. And you may have made that proposition? Mr. Bentley. I may have. I won't say whether I did or did not. I don't know. The Chairman. Did you enter into a contract or deal with Grimes, that land buyer, under the act of 1906 to pay him $10,000 for control of the council ? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1559 Mr. Bentley. No, sir ; I never did. The Chairman. Did you have any transactions or dealing with Grimes about that ? Mr. Bentley. I would have to refresh my memory. The Chairman. Can you do that? Do you think you can refresh your memory between now and the next meeting? Mr. Bentley. I think so. I think I can tell you exactly. The Chairman. Where are your original checks and vouchers which you took when you disbursed this $86,000 fund? Mr. Bentley. The last I knew of them, Senator, they were at Shawnee, 'Okla., at my country home, in a — well, it is a room where I keep papers and valuables. It was intended for a bathroom, and there are some drawers and other receptacles there for papers, and when my family left there a few months ago my papers, so far as I know, were left there. I will say that it is a wonder if they are there, because I had supposed this was a closed incident. I had been here and my checks had been gone over, and I did not expect it would ever be reverted to again. Had I had any suspicion or thought it would have come up again I would probably have taken better care of it. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not they are in the pos- session of your wife now ? Mr. Bentley. They are really not in the possession of anybody. We have left our home there — left it furnished. The Chairman. Did I misunderstand you when I understood you to say that she did have your checks and vouchers ? Mr. Bentley. Yes ; she is the only person that does know. Now, in moving, of course, I say we left everything. We moved our elothes and some few things, and I don't know really The Chairman. Where is she now ? Mr. Bentley. She is at Fitzhugh, Okla., in the Chickasaw Nation. Our son lives there, and she is there with him. By train it is half a day to Shawnee. It is only a little way, but it takes a long time to get around there. I think she would probably be willing to go there and get them. I am very willing to have them brought here, but she is so disgusted — I have wasted so much money and deprived my family so long of money they should have had fighting for these Kickapoos that she has no more patience with me or the Indians either. I don't believe she would spend a cent to get all the papers on earth, or that she cares anything except to wish she had never heard of it. The Chairman. There are one or two other questions I want to ask you, but it is so very late. Representative Burke. I want to ask him a few questions before he leaves. Mr. Bentley. I am going to be here for some days. Eepresentative Carter. I want to ask one or two questions now. I believe you said you bought 300 acres of land in the Choctaw Nation ? Mr. Bentley. A half section ; yes, sir. Representative Carter. Where is that located ? Mr. Bentley. Near Fitzhugh, Okla. Representative Carter. That is in the Chickasaw Nation. 1560 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentlet. Yes; Chickasaw. Representative Caeter. Whom did you buy it from ? Mr. Bentlet. I bought it from the heirs of, I believe, Elsie Anderson, away back before the laws were changed, when the heirs of deceased persons could make a title; 1902, I think it was, when there were so many dead claims. Representative Garter. Did you have it probated? Mr. Bentlet. No ; only a part of it- Representative Carter. Was it approved by the Secretary of the Interior ? Mr. Bentlet. No. Representative Carter. You have not any title, then ? Mr. Bentlet. I don't know. I paid $5,000 for it anyway. Representative Carter. Whom did you say you bought it from? Mr. Bentlet. I bought it from these heirs. One 80 was pro- bated, and the attorney who wrote the deed wrote two deeds for one 80 and left the other out, though I paid $1,250 for it. Representative Carter. I mean who were the grantors? Mr. Bentlet. Of the half section, the east 80 was intermarried surplus, and it seems to me Lizzie Anderson was the name of the allottee. It was an old Indian woman that died in the pententiary. Representative Carter. And the balance was an inherited estate? Mr. Bentlet. It is all inherited except one 80. Representative Carter. You said one was an intermarried surplus. Mr. Bentlet. One 80. Three other 80's were dead homesteads. I have been told that the dead homestead was good up ta nineteen hundred and something. Representative Carter. Did you exercise the same precautions about titles when you were buying land for the Kickapoos as you did when you were buying land for yourself? Mr. Bentlet. No; because I was a foreigner over there, and I got the best attorneys I could find. I did not take any chances. The Chairman. We are unable to fix a day now when we will resume, but you will be notified. (Thereupon, at 11.50 o'clock p. m., the joint commission adjourned to meet at the call of the chairman.) SERIAL TWO HEARINGS BEFORE THE Lr-„ JOINT COMMISSION OF THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES SIXTY-THIRD CONGRESS SECOND SESSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS MAY 8, 13, and 18, 1914 PART 13 PriBted for the use of the Joint Commission WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1914 43 JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS. Congress of the United States. Senators: Representatives: JOE T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas. HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma. CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota. R. B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary. Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk, CONTENTS. Testimony of — Pa 8 e - M. J. Bentley 1561 Frank A. Thackery 1642 John A. Buntin 1724 Thomas F. Murphy 1742 rn KICKAPOO INDIANS. FRIDAY, MAY 8, 1914. Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, Washington, D. O. The joint commission met in room 128 Senate Office Building at 8 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Robinson (chairman), Townsend, and Lane; Representatives Carter and Burke. TESTIMONY OF ME. MARTIN J. BENTLEY— Resumed. The Chairman. Mr. Bentley, Mr. Burke wants to ask you some questions. Representative Burke. Mr. Bentley, when did you come to Wash- ington the first time when you had any business before any com- mittee of Congress concerning the Mexican Kickapoo Indians ? Mr. Bentley. It was at the time when Senator Pettigrew was chairman of the Senate committee, as I recollect. Representative Burke. Some time about 1896 ? Mr. Bentley. I think so; I think that was my first appearance here. Representative Burke. How many years continuously have you been at Washington during the sessions of Congress when you were here on some business concerning this tribe of Indians ? Mr. Bentley. Well, I would hardly be able to say. Representative Burke. As nearly as you can? Mr. Bentley. From 1896 to 1901, of course, I was the agent in charge of them. Representative Burke. From that time on? Mr. Bentley. And then when I left the service— I think I was here in 1904. Representative Burke. All right. 1905 ? Mr. Bentley. I was here, I am certain, in 1905. Representative Burke. Well, go on. Mr. Bentley. In 1906—1 think in 1907 and 1908. Then there was one year perhaps that I was not here; maybe two; 1912 I was here and 1913, as I recollect. Representative Burke. Then you have been here practically every year from 1901 ? Mr. Bentley. No. Representative Burke. Well, what years haven t you been ! Mr. Bentley. My recollection is— I may have come here m 1902, but not on any Indian matter. I came here in connection with some post-office matters. I think there have been two or three years since 1904 that I have not been here. I won't be certain. 1561 1562 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Representative Burke. Now, in 1905 part of your business here was to secure the removal of restrictions from seven allottees in the Kick- apoo Reservation in. Oklahoma whose land had a value, from your testimony the other night, of somewhere about $65,000 ? Mr. Bentley. Yes; I think it surely had that value. Representative Burke. Now, you initiated that legislation, did you not ? Mr. Bentley. Well, it might be so considered. The Indians sent me here to get it. Representative Burke. Now, what did you do at that time ? Mr. Bentley. Well, I just talked to Members of Congress about it and related the conditions. Representative Burke. Did you appear before any committee of either the House or Senate with reference to that matter ? Mr. Bentley. It seems to me that I either appeared before the full committee or the subcommittee. I know Senator Stewart was chairman of the committee at that time, and I talked with him a good deal about it. Representative Burke. Was that amendment put in the bill in the Senate? Mr. Bentley. I do not know. I was not here; I left here the day before it passed, so I don't know. Representative Burke. You say you left here the day it passed. It must have been reported before it passed, was it not ? Mr. Bentley. My recollection of it is that when I left here the Indian appropriation bill was still being considered. It had not passed. It is my recollection now that the bill was in conference. Representative Burke. At the last hearing before this you made the statement that Commissioner Leupp appeared before the com- mittee of the Senate, and seemed considerably excited over some provision in the bill with relation to the removal of restrictions, and you gave the impression that it had reference to this matter, and that the result of it was a provision went out of the bill that proposed to to remove the restrictions from some Quapah Indians. Mr. Bentley. I do not think I intended to give that impression. It was some item about the Quapahs. I was told by some members of the conference, or some member of it — I think, two of them— about Mr. Leupp having come in. Of course, I am only testifying about what was told me by — I think it was Senator Stewart himself, perhaps. Representative Burke. Now, to refresh your memory, I want to call your attention to the fact that in the bill as it passed the House there was a provision proposing to remove the restrictions from two Quapah allotments, one containing 3 acres and one 28 acres; and the record shows that in the committee of the Senate, when the bill was reported, the bill was amended by that provision being stricken out, and the bill passed the Senate in that form, and there was no provision in the bill when it passed the Senate removing the restrictions from the seven Kickapoo allotments. Now, it appears that in the conference the item that was stricken out in the Senate as to two Quapah allotments was reinserted, and attached to that provision was a provision removing the restrictions from the seven allotments of the Kickapoos. So it was done, if KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1563 it was done at all by any committee, in conference. Have you anything to say as to that ? Mr. Bentley. Of course, I don't know. I was not Representative Bukke. Now, attached to that provision was this language: "Satisfactory evidence having been produced in each case that the persons to whom patents are issued are qualified to take care of their own interests." Mr. Bentley. I never submitted any such statement. Representative Bukke. Now, you stated the other night— and I understand that it is your position at this time — that it was claimed that these Indians were competent to manage their own affairs, and you made the statement that they were not. Mr. Bentley. I have always so stated to everybody, before every committee, anywhere and at any time. I have no recollection — I am very certain that I never made any such representation as to any Kickapoos, and as evidence of that, if you will permit me, I desire to read to this committee just one paragraph Representative Burke. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think we will get along more rapidly and I can get through much quicker if Mr. Bentley answers these questions. The Chairman. Oh, yes. Mr. Bentley. I am very willing to do so. Representative Burke. And then if he wants to make a speech after ne gets through I shall not object. Mr. Bentley. I am very willing. Representative Burke. I simply wanted to put in the record what the fact is with regard to that transaction. Immediately following that these lards in the Kickapoo Reservation of the value of $65,000 — some portion of the allotments, if not all of them— were immediately conveyed by the Indians to you or Mrs. Bentley? Mr. Bentley. Only two of them were conveyed. Representative Burke. Two of them were conveyed I Mr. Bentley. To Mrs. Bentley; yes, sir. Representative Burke. And conveyed absolutely? Mr. Bentley. Warranty deed; yes, sir. Representative Bukke/ Now, you next appeared before commit- tees of Congress in 1906 ? Is that correct? Mr. BEntley. Yes; I think so. Representative Burke. And at that time your business here was to secure legislation removing restrictions from the allotments of these Indians who had removed to Mexico ? Mr. Bentley. Not exactly. That was not exactly what brought Representative Burke. Is not that what you did? Mr Bentley. That, in fact, was the result; but that was not what brought me here. I think I should be permitted to explain that. The investigation by the Indian Bureau of the matter of the seven allottees in Mexico-the testimony taken by officers of the Indian Bureau of those first seven, which was done through a Mexican court -resulted in such outrages down there that I came here before the committee, as the record will show, to protest against that and also against the repeal of the law. The committee after hearing my testimony and going into an investigation of the alleged outrages to the Kickapoos down there bv officers who came there to investigate— 1564 KICKAPOO INDIAN*. out of those hearings grew the act of 1906. Congress went on farther with it and removed them all; that is, attempted to remove the restrictions as to all of them in Mexico. Representative Burke. Was that legislation put in by the Com- mittee on Indian Affairs in the Senate, if you know '( Mr. Bentley. Now, I would have to think a moment. Hearings were had before the full committee of the Senate— and they covered some days and a considerable record— as to the act of 1905. Fol- lowing that, I think, the act of 1906 may have been offered as a committee amendment on the floor of the Senate. Representative Burke. What is your best recollection as to that? Mr. Bentley. My recollection is — well, I am not clear on that; but it occurs to me now that it had been discussed in committee and was offered as a committee amendment in the Senate. Representative Burke. Do you know whether it was discussed in the committee or not ? Did you discuss it in the committee or did you talk with some member of the committee merely ? Mr. Bentley. My recollection is that the matter of removing all their restrictions, and the land that we wanted to buy— I think I described the ranch. In fact, I recall — my recollection is that Con- gressman Slayden and others were called to give testimony as to the land. That is my recollection. Representative Burke. I think I can refresh your memory here in a moment. [After a pause.] I do not find the record; but for the purpose of refreshing your memory I will say that, unless I am mis- taken, and I am certain I am not, it was put in on the floor of the Senate just before the bill passed, as these matters frequently do get into bills; and I wanted to find out from you, if I could, whether it was considered and brought to the attention of the full committee or whether you simply talked with some one member of the Senate committee. Mr. Bentley. Oh, it is my recollection that there were very full hearings; because, if I am not incorrect, Senator Clapp stated on the floor of the Senate that days had been consumed in the consideration of the very matter. That is my recollection. I think I have a quo- tation somewhere from that record. Representative Burke. Now, following that legislation, how many deeds did you obtain of land in Oklahoma belonging to Kickapoo Indians, or where the title was taken by your wife or by some one of your selection, or by any association of which you were a part ? Mr. Bentley. Well, it is my recollection that there were two deeds only taken to Mis. Bentley, and she was present. That was Ah-kis- kuck's and his wife's deed, and they were so taken because the Indians themselves insisted upon making the deed to her. That is my rec- ollection of the matter. But I think one more — as to the exact num- ber of deeds taken to Mr. Ives, the trustee for the Kickapoos, to transfer these lands, I could not give you the exact number. We paid usually $100 apiece. I paid the debts of the Indians, and I paid them on those 42 — 42 deeds, it must have been, because my settle- ment shows $13,000 paid to Indians on account of 42 deeds. But, mind you, those lands had already been deeded. Representative Burke. I understand; but you are willing to admit that there were as many as 42? Mr. Bentley. That is my recollection, and I think that is correct. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1565 Representative Burke. And if you testified before the subcommit- tee of the House committee in 1912 that there were 55 or 60. do you thmk you were mistaken % Mr. Bentley. Well, I probably was, because I was probably tes- tifying from my best memory. Representative Burke. You are testifying from your recollection now, are you not ? Mr. Bentley. My notice was called lately to reviewing my accounts and there I find 42 Indians— "42 Indian deeds, paid to grantors $13,000." I judge from that that must have been the number. Representative Burke. These deeds were also taken without any conditions so far as the face of the deed is concerned ? Mr. Bentley. That is true; but behind them always was a decla- ration of trust in proper form. Representative Burke. Who held that declaration of trust ? Mr. Bentley. There were two of them; that is, it was made in duplicate. Mr. Field, the attorney of the Kickapoos, held one of them, and the Border National Bank, for the Kickapoo Council, held the other. They were there in escrow, is my recollection. Representative Burke. In what form were they executed ? Mr. Bentley. I have copies of them in the record here. Representative Burke. Where are the originals ? Mr. Bentley. They were submitted to the committee investigating the affairs of the Kickapoos with the other papers, and I think per- haps were returned to Mr. Field, but I do not know. The originals were submitted tq them. They were the usual form of declaration of trust, and were acknowledged — I am certain that the ones I made and those that Mr. Ives made, at least, were ; I think they all were. Representative Burke. Now, following the legislation of 1906 you came to Washington again, did you not, for the purpose of looking after matters in which the Kickapoo Indians were concerned ? Mr. Bentley. Yes; I came. Following the act of 1906 I came here in the interest of getting a settlement with the Government, getting a claim that the Kickapoos had. That was the $215,000 item. Representative Burke. That was presented to two or three ses- sions before it was finally passed, was it ? Do you remember ? Mr. Bentley. Well, I think it had been in the Indian bill several times, a little different. We had tried for some years to get an act to go to the Court of Claims — the consent of the Government to sue — is my recollection. But it went out of the bill in the Senate, I think. Representative Burke. Was there ever an item in the bill at any time that proposed to send it to the Court of Claims 1 And for the purpose of refreshing your memory, let me ask you if there was not a provision in the bill to pay them $300,000 ? Mr. Bentley. Not that I recall. Representative Burke. What was the amount of that claim? Mr. Bentley. We were asking $300,000 as a full settlement. Representative Burke. And did you not present your case and submit a provision that you desired to have incorporated in the bill fixing the amount at $300,000 « Mr. Bentley. Yes, ?ir. If you will pardon me, I have that here, and I would like to offer it in the record. 1566 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Representative Burke. Well, you are correct about it. It was finally agreed upon at 1215,000? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. Was that put in by the committee, or did that go in on the floor of the House ? Mr. Bentley. I would not be certain, but my recollection is that Senator Teller offered that amendment on the floor, but, I think, as a committee amendment. I won't be certain. Representative Burke. I call your attention to the Congressional Record, page 2655, of the Sixtieth Congress, first session, which reads as follows: Mr. Clapp. I offer the amendment I send to the desk to be inserted after line 14, on page 51. Mr. Bentley. Perhaps I am incorrect. My recollection was that Senator Teller offered it. I know he supported it vigorously. Representative Burke. Is it your opinion that this record is correct in saying that it was offered by Senator Clapp ? Mr. Bentley. Yes. Representative Burke. You have not any explanation to make as to why it does not appear to have been offered as a committee amendment ? Mr. Bentley. No; but my recollection was that it was offered as a committee amendment. Of course, I can only testify from memory. Representative Burke. This reads: "That there be and hereby is appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, the sum of .1300,000 for the fulfillment of certain treaty obligations to the Mexican Kickapoo Indians," etc. Mr. Bentley. I recall now Representative Burke. Further on it reads: "Said sum of $215,000 shall be paid," etc. Now, probably the intention was to make it $215,000, but it seems to read $300,000 in the first part of it. Mr. Bentley. The reason it was made $215,000 was that that was within a few hundred dollars of the exact amount of the differences growing out of the last land transactions that the Kickapoos had. That was the difference between 32£ cents and $1.50 an acre. Representative Burke. Now, Senator Gallinger wanted some information about this amendment, and Senator Clapp stated, according to this record, that if his memory served him correctly this item was put in the bill in the last Congress. That is the reason I asked you if it had not been put in in that form. Mr. Bentley. I think he had reference to an item with regard to letting us go to the Court of Claims, which went out in conference, perhaps. My recollection of this — to be frank about it, it was the outrage and raid of the Kickapoos in Mexico — the investigation over that resulted in drawing such sympathy to the Kickapoos that, with- out going to the Court of Claims, Congress passed this act providing this money for their relief. Representative Burke. The only record I can find, Mr. Bentley, is that one Senator offered this amendment on his own responsibility, not as a committee amendment; and if there was such a great amount of sympathy that prompted this action I want to find out whether it was generally understood by the Committee on Indian Affairs. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1567 Mr. Bentley. This was immediately following— the newspapers of the country were full of the investigation of the Kickapoo affairs, ? i, ™ but I won't be sure. lhe Chairman. "Expenses, second grand jury, witnesses' travel and expenses, $800." Mr. Bentley. Yes; I think that is correct. The Chairman. "Special attorney before grand jury, $600." Who was that ? Mr. Bentley. Mr. Field. The Chairman. Why did he not put his name in there? Mr. Bentley. I do not know; I have no explanation to offer, £?i s|~ let me see - Tnat might have been Joe Jones. I paid a Del Rio attorney $500— one Joseph Jones. But I think Mr. Field came there from Washington that second time and that is his ex- penses and his fee. ( The Chairman. The next aggregates $16,150, and relates to Expense of removal of entire tribe from Muzquiz, Mexico, to Sonora, Mexico, beginning May 6, at Muzquiz, Coahuila, and ter- minating November 7, 1909, at Douglas, Ariz." The first item is, "Salary and expenses Gostin, including guides at varioffs places, $1,150." Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much salary did you pay Mr. Gostin ? Mr. Bentley. I would not be able, without consulting some memo- randa I have, to tell you just what I paid him in salary during that time. The Chairman. Do you know how many guides he had ? Mr. Bentley. The customs officer at Presidio, Tex., furnished fuides. The Indians were lost there three weeks in the desert, and sent that man money, and he sent out couriers into the desert hunt- ing the Indians. They came very near perishing. The Chairman. How much money did you send him ? Mr. Bentley. To the customs officer ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Bentley. I think $50 one time, and some more another time that I sent to him. Some bills came there later that Gostin had made in making arrangements to carry water from one water hole to another. The Chairman. The next item is, "Permission to pass through Mexican properties, $275." Did you have to pay that? Mr. Bentley. Mr. Gostin says that away exceeded that. He says the money I furnished him to pay that' — that I must have misunder- stood his report, because it was much more. You see, we had several hundred head of stock, and we had to pay for carrying water and other things. The Chairman. How much was it ? Mr. Bentley. He says it is in excess of $500 that we paid. The Chairman. Did he not tell you how much it was ? He just said it was more than $500 ? Mr. Bentley. He says he paid more than that. The Chairman. "Self two trips into interior to supply funds, $300." Did it cost you that? Mr. Bentley. Indeed it did. One of those trips cost me more than that — more than $150. There was about two weeks that I was 1602 KICKAPOO INDIAN'S. where the Orient Railway crosses the Concho River. The Indians were supposed to be in the desert. They crossed 50 miles below. They might have crossed the night they arrived at the river, but they foolishly camped on the wrong side, and the river came up during the night and they could not get across. I had to make some expensive hack trips to finally get them located, and I came near being killed in the meantime. The Chairman. "Sending 20 Indian witnesses from grand jury to Presidio, $600." Where was that? Presidio, Cal. ? Mr. Bentley. No; Texas. We had them at Eagle Pass, these wit- nesses, until the grand jury would convene. Then we had to send them to Spofford Junction, then around to Marfa, then 90 miles by hack to the river; then we held them there a long time. I had to wire and get an interpreter to come from Shawnee. We had a lot of expense on account of that. The Chairman. The next item is "Subsistence, $7,825." Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you keep accounts of that? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I kept an account of the money I sent there for that purpose. Of course, I could not keep any account any other way. The Chairman. Have you that account now that you kept ? Mr. Bentley. I think I can furnish it. The Chairman. I wish you would let me see it. Mr. Bentley. I think it is among my papers. The Chairman. How many Indians were there in that group ? Mr. Bentley. About 200. The Chairman. "Loss of 300 horses dead from heat and lack of water on this trip, $6,000." Mr. Bentley. Of course, that is what is reported to me. The Chairman. How did you figure that the Government should ay that ? You did not pay for those horses ? Mr. Bentley. No ; I am not asking the Government to pay me that. I am asking that money to be reimbursed to the Indians. But, if the Indians were, through the connivance of some Federal officials, compelled to give up their home and make this trip of a thousand miles through a desert country, and this was brought about and made necessary by the bad faith on the part of the Government officials and the United States was indirectly responsible for the loss of those horses, I think it ought to pay for them. Of course, I am only giving my best judgment as to that. I would not claim that as anything paid by me. The Chairman. Would not less than half that amount have taken them around by rail ? Mr. Bentley. Oh, yes ; but here was all their horses — no; it would not; I do not think so; and you could not have got them to go that way. They would not leave their stuff behind. We had one carload that we did ship around, and that cost $475, so I think we did probably the only thing. The Chairman. The next is, "Pay of expenses incurred in trial of civil cases in the district court, Pottawatomie County, Okla., includ- ing the pay of Indian witnesses from Mexico, attorneys fees, and other incidental expenses, $2,400." KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1603 Have you an itemized statement of that ? Mr. Bentley. I think I can furnish an itemized account of that trial and everything connected with that. The Chairman. "Expenses in Federal cases, civil suits in Okla- «?n^ a » P m 'POse of protecting title. Clerks fees filing 27 cases, That is the filing fees, is it ? Mr Bentley. $300 of that was paid to J. H. Everest for preparing and filing the answers, as I recall, and $105 was the clerks' fees in filing those suits. Those items were paid by check The Chairman. The next item is, "Clerks' fees, deposited as de- fendant, 43 actions, $215." Mr. Bentley. That is my recollection; that is correct. The Chairman. There are several small items I am not going to ask you about, but there is a large item embraced within that general head: "Expenses of attorneys and interpreters and Bentley taking depositions Eagle Pass, Muzquiz, and Mondova in 23 cases, $1,250." Is that an accurate statement, or is it estimated ? Mr. Bentley. I think it is an accurate statement, and I am quite certain that I can furnish the memoranda upon which that is based. The Chairman. "Attorneys fee in local courts, Oklahoma, Everest, $300." Mr. Bentley. The chances are that there was a mistake. I want to be perfectly frank. That might be a mistake. I might have charged that item twice. If I have, I want to correct it. The Chairman. Then that was embraced within the $1,250? Mr. Bentley. I am quite certain that is an error, but it may not be. If it is I want to correct it. The Chairman. "J. H. Woods, $150." Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. The Chairman. "W. S. Pendleton, $450." Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. The Chairman. "J. H. Wall, $250." Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. The Chairman. "W. W. Ives, court costs, $500." Mr. Bentley. That is correct. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, that item of court costs is merely estimated, is it not ? Mr. Bentley. No; Mr. Ives furnished me a memorandum of the sums that he — Indian witnesses would come to Shawnee, Okla., and would have to be fed. Maybe they would arrive in my absence, and Ives took care of them in my absence, and he kept account of that. The Chairman. Did it amount to exactly $500 ? Mr. Bentley. Well, it either amounted to that or more than that. It might have been a few cents over. If it was, the way this account was made up it would not have been put on. The Chairman. Now, when you first made out this account you first put that July, 1907, did you not, and afterwards revised your account so as to show 1908 ? Mr. Bentley. No, sir. After this account was rendered, or made up, or I should say before it was brought before the conference com- mittee, it was discovered that an error had been made in it as to a date, and Mr. Field corrected that; I had nothing to do with that. 1604 KIOKAPOO INDIANS. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, was not that correction made because Mr. Burke, who was on the conference committee, insisted that the act of 1908 settled all that ? Mr. Bentley. That is true, but on the other hand, I think the correction was properly made. I think it was a mistake as to the date. I am quite certain that while I had nothing to do with making the change in the paper, I think Mr. Field was justified. I think it was in error before, and I think it is correct now. The Chairman. It became necessary to change a number of the other dates in the same connection, did it not ? Mr. Bentley. I do not know as to that. I only recall the one. Whatever changes there may be, I had nothing to do with. The Chairman. Why did you have four attorneys in those cases? What was the idea of that ? Mr. Bentley. This last case ? The Chairman. The case I have just been asking about; the Federal cases where 27 cases were filed. It seems there were 43 actions in which Indians were defendants. Mr. Bentley. Why, I suppose — some were in one county and some were in another — for various reasons different attorneys were employed. The Chairman. I see you have embraced in this statement an item, "Pay of incidental expenses, traveling expenses self and attor- neys during committee investigation, $500." Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; that is true. The Chairman. You traveled with the committee, did you not? Mr. Bentley. I was with the committee during its entire trip; yes, sir. The Chairman. You did not pay any railroad fare? Mr. Bentley. No; no railroad fare was paid by me. The Chairman. "Expenses incurred in spring of 1909, trip self and Field to Mexico on account of Mark Goode and others together with attorneys' fees (civil suits against community)." The items under that are: "Cost of trip, $400; attorney fees, same, Everest, $150; Green, $25; Wall, $100; Pendelton, $150; Blakeney, $100; total, $925." What did you want with so many lawyers there? Mr. Bentley. Well; I will tell you. As I recall it, the fee of Blakeney was where this suit had been brought against me as trustee in behalf of the creditors of certain minors, and they had it tied up. I had $20,100 of this community fund, and had deposited it in Wash- ington and Shawnee, and a part of that fund was attached, and my recollection is now I paid Blakeney $150 to go to Chandler, and argue that case. Blakeney's theory prevailed, and I got the money out of that. The Chairman. I concede that the fee was probably reasonable in view of that statement, but what I asked was why you had so many attorneys. There were four attorneys there in that connec- tion. Mr. Bentley. They were not always employed in the same case, Senator. There were so many of these cases. One in particular — Blakeney is a very able attorney, and the amounts involved there — I thought he could present it better than Everest or some of the others. He succeeded anyway in getting the money loose. KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1605 The Chairman. Why did you not let Blakeney attend to all the cases ? Mr. Bentley. Well, it is a peculiar relation. Ben Blakeney was attorney for the men who robbed the Kickapoos, and had been my attorney, yet when a difficult point is to be argued in court and a fee is contingent he is the best lawyer in Oklahoma, and notwithstanding he had been unfaithful to me, I did employ him in certain cases where I believed it required that character of ability. Take the whole array of attorneys, however — Everest, Goode, Wall, and Pendelton — I believe there is no better in the State, I mean as to their standing as men. The Chairman. The last general item is, "Expenses caused by active opposition prior to San Bernardino Council. Extra trip, Doug- las, Ariz., to Shawnee and return, withinterpreter, $175. Livery, $25." What is that for ? Mr. Bentley. The livery charge was when Mark Goode and an agent of the department came to Douglas, Ariz., and took a police- man in full gear from Douglas into the interior, some 40 or 50 miles, to apparently awe the Indians with this man in the costume of an officer. When I learned that I provided Gostin with a suitable rig and sent him in there to see that no advantage was taken of the Indians. Notwithstanding that, he did kidnap and take away some of the weaker ones; I think, some 25 or 50. That was one of the expenses. The Chairman. "Clerk to Muzquiz and return, $50." What was that? Mr. Bentley. That was Mr. Erney, I think, who was sent down there for something. I do not recall that. The Chairman. From where ? Mr. Bentley. Probably from here. The Chairman. He could not go to Muzquiz ar.d back for $50, could he ? Mr. Bentley. Well, then, it must have been The Chairman. You do not know, do you ? Mr. Bentley. I do not recall at this time just what the clerk men- tioned was. The Chairman. "Extra support IndiaDs, $275." What was that? Mr. Bentley. If I could refresh my memory — that was probably some necessary expense that I do not at this time recall. The Chairman. "Defense in Wah-nah-ke-tha case, $565." What was that for? Mr. Bentley. There came a time in the Wah-nah-ke-tha case when the attorneys who had a contract with him to receive a fee of a part of his land had no funds. Depositions had to be gotten within a specified time or the old man would lose his case. Notwithstanding his attorneys were bitter enemies of mine, rather than that he should lose his case on their appeal, I furnished the money to get these depo- sitions. In the account I have, approved by their attorney, I have his receipt for $585 — or his statement, at least. That was actual money. . . , The Chairman. You have verified these several items about wnicn I have asked you as a just, correct, and true statement of the expenses incurred by you, etc. ? 35601— pt 13—14 4 1606 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentley. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir. I believed then, and do now, that they aie true, except that possibly there may be an error of $310. If there is, I should be very frank to admit it. The Chaikman. You looked over this affidavit on the front page a while ago '( Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; 1 think that is as I drew it. The Chairman. That will go in the record without reading it. (The affidavit referred to is as follows:) District of Columbia, ss: Personally appeared before me, the undersigned authority for and within the District aforesaid, Martin J. Bentley, who being by me first duly sworn, deposes and Bays: That since the year 1896 he has been continuously associated with and in charge of the Kickapoo Indians either as an agent of the United States or as their agent and trustee by their election, acting for and with them both in the United States and in old Mexico. The item of $41,000, being Senate amendment 111 of the Indian appropriation bill, includes the sums of money actually and necessarily expended by me or through me and out of the community fund of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians. That the Mexican Kickapoo Community in Mexico are not indebted to any attor- ney or attorneys, nor is there any known demand to me on the part of any attorney or attorneys, or claim of any kind or character for legal services due from or claimed to be due from said community; that not $1 of said $41,000 would be paid to any attorney. It is a reimbursement to the Kickapoo fund for cash already paid and expended in the defense of the Kickapoo Indians and the Kickapoo Community occasioned by the interference and persecution of said community, its members and helpers, by the Indian Bureau in its efforts to deprive these Indians of their liberty, to destroy their property rights, and to by indirection defeat the objects of the laws of Congress enacted for the benefit and in the furtherance of their efforts to establish themselves perma- nently in the Republic of Mexico. (Signed) Martin J. Bentley. District of Columbia, City of Washington: Sworn to and subscribed before me, a notary public in and for the District of Colum- bia, this 31st day of July, A. D. 1912. [seal.] (Signed) R. B. Nixon, Notary Public. My commission expires December 16, 1915. The Chairman. You say you do not know anything about the accounts of Mitscher and Field ? Mr. Bentley. I do not, unless I can look them over. It is possible there may be something there The Chairman. I see in one of these accounts there is a fee charged to you of $200. Did cither Mitscher or Field pay you a fee ? Mr. Bentley. It might be termed a fee, perhaps. That item- after I had turned over, as I believed from my records, all the money I had, and a little more, to my cotrustees, and $100 was readvanced to me to come here to Washington and make this settlement, I was paid $100. Representative Burke. What is the aggregate of that ? The Chairman. The aggregate of your statement appears to be $48,523. Mr. Bentley. I think that is correct. Senator Townsend. May I ask a question there ? All this money was expended by you prior to the appropriation of the $215,000 ? Mr. Bentley. Most of it; not all of it. Senator Townsend. What portion of it was expended after that? # Mr. Bentley. Well, Senator, I would have to refresh my recollec- tion and figure it over to tell you. A good deal of it. The most of it, I think, was before I received any of the $215,000. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1607 Senator Townsend. Where did you get the money that you paid out prior to the time this $215,000 was appropriated? Mr. Bentley. Senator, I sold farm land, I sold town lots, I col- lected mortgages. I got money — borrowed it. I got it anywhere and everywhere I could. Senator Townsend. You spent your own money ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I spent my own money, too. Senator Townsend. Thousands of dollars ? And you at that time had no assurance you were ever going to get anything for the Indians ? Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I took chances. Senator Townsend. So you spent $30,000, we will say — $32,000, if I have it correctly — prior to 1908 of your own money? Mr. Bentley. Either my own or that I had pledged my credit for. Senator Townsend. Well, it was your money. Mr. Bentley. My money; yes, sir. Senator Townsend. At that time how much were you worth ? Mr. Bentley. Well, the $30,000, or approximately that, that I would have been held for at that time had I been compelled to meet these obligations myself out of my own funds and my property at forced sale — I don't suppose it would have left me anything. Senator Townsend. So you spent, either what you had or on credit, more than you were worth ? Mr. Bentley. More than I would be worth at forced sale ; yes, sir. Senator Townsend. And you had at that time, I repeat, no assur- ance that you were ever going to get a dollar back? Mr. Bentley. None in the world, sir. I simply had done this: I simply had promised to these-Indians that if I lived I would secure them a home in Mexico. And if any man ever endeavored to keep an agreement or to follow out a thing that he had attempted to do, in the belief that it was right, I did it in this case. The only wrong I have done in that is to my family. Senator Townsend. Now, is it not a fact that the Indians lost more — because nearly all these items you have mentioned here have been items of expense either paid to attorneys or in law suits for witnesses, bringing men back and forth from Mexico — is not this loss more than the Indians would have lost if you had not touched that at all? Mr, Bentley. No. Oh, you mean had I never had anything to do with that ? Senator Townsend. Yes. Mr. Bentley. No. Had this whole $215,000 gore to them for the purpose that it was intended for, ard had I not been irterfered with and carried out my plan, they would have been two or three hundred thousand dollars better off. Senator Townsend. You could have gotten that $215,000 without all of these expensive lawsuits and other things and going down to l\xipxico Mr Bentley Yes; but, Senator, their land- or at least the value of $250 000— they had been robbed of it, and this expense was in- curred largely in recovering that. The United States was responsible absolutely for these titles being taken away from them. Had they been given the same protection that other citizens of the United States had in a foreign country they never would have been robbed, 1608 KICKAPOO INDIANS. but through the connivance of the Indian Bureau they were denied consular protection. We were denied all those rights and privileges that go to a foreigner in a foreign country. Senator Townsend. You induced them to go to Mexico? Mr. Bentley. No indeed, Senator. I never induced them to go. They seduced me into taking them. Senator Townsend. They would not have gone there if it had not been for you. Mr. Bentley. Oh, I think they would. They would not have stayed in Oklahoma so long. Here is what would have happened, Senator. The original money that came into my hands, of theirs, to move them with — an Indian would get $3,000 or $4,000 and give me that in trust. I gave him my note, and ultimately paid it all back. But I have served him, I have moved him down there, and fed him, and clothed him, and let him have the money as soon as he needed it until it was all paid back. Any part of it that I used were those who had no money unless this $86,000 fund, or land-sale fund, would have come into my hands. Do I make that clear! Senator Townsend. Very clear. Mr. Bentley. All the sums received by me from them as indi- viduals were turned back to them except one note. I owe one In- dian yet $800. Senator Townsend. I realize that. I am assuming that all that is true. You stated, I believe, in your testimony that when you were agent for the Indians they were in a prosperous condition? Mr. Bentley. When I left them; yes, sir. Senator Townsend. When you left them they were in a prosperous condition. Then commenced the movement into Mexico ? Mr. Bentley. Not immediately. Senator Townsend. How soon ? Mr. Bentley. I left the service in September, 1901, and they began moving to Mexico in January, 1903, or 1904. They had a good, thorough trial of the new agent and new officials. I have the date here on a letter I wrote to Senator Quay when the first bunch left. Senator Townsend. I do not care to go into any argument about that. Mr. Bentley. I just want to supply the date. Senator Townsend. I will assume that it is somewhere in 1903 or 1904. Mr. Bentley. Yes. Senator Townsend. At that time the Indians were propserous ? Mr. Bentley. No; when they began to leave there and go to Mexico they had fallen into a state of disaffection again. They were fighting among themselves. A good deal of their property had been stolen— then mules. They were not in the condition then that I had left them in a year and a half or two years before that. Senator Townsend. Do you consider those Indians better off to-day financially than they were when you took them into Mexico, or when they went into Mexico ? Mr. Bentley. Yes. Senator Townsend. Do you consider that they have obtained a value sufficient to warrant all these expenses which you have incurred to them ? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1609 Mr. Bentley. Oh, no, Senator. If they had been paid for all they suffered, or were I to be paid for all I have suffered, I would not — $86,000 would not be anything. Senator Townsend. What I am getting at is this: Was this invest- ment of $48,000 a good one for the Indians ? Mr. Bentley. Yes; in this way: Looking at it from the Indian's standpoint, to have remained where he was, he could not; he would have perished there, and he knew it. He was seeking self-preservation. They were seeking to get away where they might perpetuate them- selves, and from that viewpoint it was well invested. They are growing now rapidly. Senator Townsend. There are 40 of them, or such a matter down there in Mexico who are not living on the reservation or the property you obtained. They are, as I understood you to say, in a desperate condition ? Mr. Bentley. There is no doubt as to that. Senator Townsend. How about the Indians who remained in Oklahoma ? Mr. Bentley. Senator, you will find them in the ditches. You will find them drunk on the streets of Shawnee. You will find that they are not living well. They have not got from dav to da} T as much to eat as my Indians have in Mexico who are making their own living. It is my contention — and I base it upon this fact — that the reservation that I secured for these Indians in Mexico I could have sold to the Mormons for the purpose of colonization and moved my Indians on somewhere else and gotten $45,000. Senator Townsend. I want to ask you this question, Mr. Bentley. It is rather a remarkable thing to me that a ffan that had $30,000 should expend all that and obligate himself to pay more on a prospect that did not seem very bright, at least, of ever getting a dollar back. I want to ask you if there was nobody, either you or anybody con- nected with you, who was interested in any manner of speculation as to land in Mexico or elsewhere in that project ? Mr. Bentley. Not that had any active connection with it; no. sir; at no time, in no way. Senator Townsend. You talked this matter over with certain gen- tlemen before you purchased the land down there — bankers and somebody else ? Mr. Bentley. Before the time I had acquired any money sufficient to enable me to buy land, I did confer with certain bankers with the idea of getting them, if I found no other way, to advance the money necessary, or to buy a piece of country until a time woidd come when the restrictions of the Indians would be removed automatically, or could be removed, so that their estate here could be converted into something to pay for that. If we had gone that route, necessarily a banker would have had to make something out of it. But so far as I am concerned individually it has not been a matter of specula- tion with me. I did not do this for money. Senator Townsend. I am curious to know if the bankers were influenced by that same humanitarian view that you had. Mr Bentley. I am very certain they were not. If I had had any- thing to do with them, they would have had to be paid liberally for anything they did. It was a matter with them of investment. 1610 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Townsend. How did you expect to pay them when you went to talk to them ? Mr. Bentley. These bankers ? Senator Townsend. Yes. Mi 1 . Bentley. I expected to do this, had they bought a piece of country suitable for the settlement of these Kickapoos, to have agreed to pay them some certain stipulated price, allowing them such a profit, if we could agree, as should be agreed upon, upon the purchase of the land, believing, of course, that sooner or later we would get money some way to pay for it. There was no other way. The Indians were determined to go, and my effort was to provide a home for them. Senator Townsend. And you did not think you could provide that home in Oklahoma ? Mr. Bentley. Oh, there is no place there left for Indians, Senator — real Indians. Senator Townsend. They had property there at that time 1 Mr. Bentley. They have it yet, fortunately. And I am asking the full committee of the Senate to extend those restrictions for 25 years so they may continue to have it. It is their only salvation. Senator Townsend. Is not that the land on which you were asking to have the restrictions removed ? Mr. Bentley. Oh, yes; but at a time when, had they heen removed and I had been let alone —land was high then in Oklahoma — and with the funds those lands would have brought I could have acquired for the Kickapoos 23^,000 acres with more than 10,000 cattle, and that would have made, them an ideal home. It was my idea to go to San Antonio, Tex., and spend practicaUy the rest of my" lifetime there. To me that is an ideal country. Senator Townsend. Originally you wanted the restrictions re- moved, because you thought you could take the money that could be obtained from their lands and invest it to better advantage in Mexico for the Indians ? Mr. Bentley. As to just a few of them. As to those seven; I had no intention at first of getting any restrictions removed from any but the seven. I secured those deeds to all those pieces of land — their homes — or somebody associated with me. Had the department followed the law, which was mandatory, and directed the Secretary of the Interior to immediately issue those patents —but they did not do it. The land had fallen in value. Had I not been interfered with and had the patents issued, as the evident intention of the law must have been, then I could have readily gotten money enough to have made a payment on this tract of land of 238,000 acres. Senator Townsend. Your intention in the first instance was to get the restrictions removed from those seven allotments Mr. Bentley. Only. Senator Townsend. And you were going to take that money and invest it where ? Mr. Bentley. To buy a property known as Pedro Blanco in the State of Coahuila, Mexico. Senator Townsend. Whose property was that to be? Mr. Bentley. That was to be the property of the Indians. Senator Townsend. What Indians? Mr. Bentley. The Kickapoo Indians. You mean, from whom was I to purchase it ? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1611 Senator Townsend No. The money you obtained from the sale pt tne allotments of these seven Indians was to be invested in Mexico an ^r d was t0 belon S t0 all the Indians ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; that is correct. Senator Townsend. Did those seven Indians consent to that« Mr. Bentley. They did, and their testimony is found in that record taken under the process of a Mexican court, where they each so tes ti- tled that they turned their land over to me so it might be exchanged tor Mexican land. K Senator Townsend. Was not that the money that you expended down there that you are accounting for here ? _ Mr. Bentley. Very little of it, if any; $21,500 of that money was immediately invested m a piece of land, and that part of the money received from the sale of those lands was advanced to the owners of the lands — to Okemah and his wife and to No-ten. It was largely expended for those individuals. But they were perf ectlywilling' then, and are now, that the whole tribe might live on the piece of land bought with the $21,000— well, that was Mexican money, of course. I received at first only $15,000. Senator Townsend. In gold ? _ Mr. Bentley. In gold. And of tha^ $10,000 or $11,000— prac- tically $11,000, with expenses— went into a piece of Mexican land. Had the Secretary issued the patents, we would never have bought that little piece of land at all, but when this fight came up it was the only thing I could do. Mexico would not tolerate the Indians there unless they lived upon their own land, and that still belongs to those persons whose money it was purchased with. Senator Townsend. Those seven 1 Mr. Bentley. No, sir; because those seven never put anything into it. That land was bought by three of them. Senator Townsend. Three of the seven ? Mr. Bentley. Three of the seven, and they still own that land. It is a desirable property, too. Senator Townsend. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted .to get it straight in my mind where that money came from. Mr. Bentley. The money that is in that, very little, if any, of that came from the sale of those seven allotments, because that money was used to buy a temporary home with, and large sums of it were paid to the persons whose land I sold; and very little of that $15,000, or $18,000 and something, that was received from those three allotments was ever used in this instance. / Senator Lane. Is this the statement you made to the congressional committee before they authorized you to expend $86,000 of the Indians' money without bond ? Mr. Bentley. No. Senator Lane. You made this afterwards ? Mr. Bentley. This account was made up after that. Senator Lane. Did they ask you what expenditures you had made before they granted you this authority ? Mr. Bentley. I was asked for two things. One was a schedule of my individual transactions — what had been received by me, what had been returned by me, and how much I still owed. Senator Lane. That is not what I am asking you. Did you make them any statement of the amount of money which you say you 1612 KICKAPOO INDIANS. had voluntarily expended — as I understand, something like $30,000 of your own money ? Mr. Bentlet. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Did you make a showing to the congressional com- mittee before this legislation passed which authorized you to expend more of their money? Mr. Bentlet. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Was it some such accounting as this ? Mr. Bentlet. It is in the record of Affairs of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians. That account showed at that time that I had expended $45,000 for the Kickapoos. Senator Lane. And was it itemized in a manner similar to this and in the same method of accounting as this ? Mr. Bentlet. Largely; it was made in an abstract way. Senator Lane. Was there any investigation made by them; did they ask you for a detailed statement concerning it ? Mr. Bentlet. It was gone over very carefully by the clerks of the committees. Senator Lane. You say that is in some report ? Mr. Bentlet. Yes, sir; it is in the Affairs of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians. Representative Burke. This statement that Senator Robinson has been interrogating him about was a statement made in 1912, when he was seeking an appropriation of $215,000. Senator Lane. I am just wondering; what that congressional com- mittee had before them in the way of a statement to justify them in giving him more money. Mr. Bentley. They had this before them. They had a record here of 2,300 pages, where they had gone into all the affairs which the resolution of Congress directed them to. They had taken testi- mony from everybody who knew anything about it, and they cer- tified to the Senate, or to Congress, in their report that they found that, while I had handled large sums of money, I had been ever diligent and honest. Senator Lane. Who certified to this ? Mr. Bentley. The committee of the Senate in their report so certified, that I had been ever diligent in protecting the Indians, and honest with them. And no doubt the fact that this legislation passed under a plan that would permit this money to come into my hands largely grew out of the confidence of those men who did investigate and did report to Congress that I had been honest and square with the Indians in my dealings. \ And I want, if you will permit me, to say this: There has never been from the beginning to the end of this transaction any person connected with me not of the best reputation. If you will take the attorneys, if you will take the trustee I selected, you will find every- one of them to be the cleanest and most reputable people. There are no drunkards and no gamblers among them. Senator Townsend. You have been testifying here of items of expense, many of which have been for railroad fare. Did you always pay your railroad fare ? Mr. Bentlet. I did this time. When I was in the Indian Service I had annual passes— the first year, I think. After I went out of the service, of course, I lost those privileges and I had to pay my fare. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1613 Senator Townsend. Did you never ask for any privileges from the railroad company ? Mr. Bentley. This is true: One company — the Missouri, Kansas & Texas Railway Co. — gave me transportation, and also the Southern Pacific for a time; but a time came when the law was changed. I only had trip passes on the Southern Pacific. Senator Townsend. That was 1906. Mr. Bentley. And those privileges were cut off. Senator Townsend. Did you pay railroad fare prior to 1906? Mr. Bentley. Over some roads sometimes I did. When I was with a carload of Indians, of course, I paid no fare. It was a kind of matter of honor. I had a 20-ride book that would take you from one division to the other on the Missouri, Kansas & Texas. Senator Townsend. Did you charge the Indians for your railroad fare? Mr. Bentley. I did not charge the Indians where I did not pay it. If I had been using that book all the time that I went up and down the Missouri, Kansas & Texas Railroad they would have cut me off from that privilege. Many times I did pay my fare. I could not ride continuously, or my book would not have held out. Senator Townsend. You had a pass all the time ? Mr. Bentley. I had a pass all the time. It is probable that a ?;ood many trips I made I rode on those passes, but not after the aw was passed cutting that off. Representative Carter. Do you mean to say that there was a limitation placed by the railroad company on the number of trips ? Mr. Bentley. That was not an annual pass, Mr. Carter. It was a 20-ride book. Representative Carter. You said they would have cut you off if you had ridden too much. Was there any such restriction ? Mr. Bentley. What I mean to tell the committee is this. Had I abused the privilege they would not have given me another book. I think you will find that railroad companies are pretty strict. If you abuse a privilege extended to you, it will not be extended very long. Representative Carter. I rode on passes and books too for a long time, and I never heard of any such limitation on them. Representative Burke. I have a pertinent inquiry I would like to make. I understand you want this committee to understand that at the time you got the $215,000 you had expended of your own money something like $30,000 without any means of reimburse- ment, and that it would be a loss to you if that $215,000 was not appropriated ? . Mr. Bentley. It is a question whether it would have been a loss or not. I had no security. Representative Burke. You have stated to Senator Lane and also to Senator Townsend, and, I think, to Senator Robinson, that you had expended this amount of your own funds? Mr. Bentley. I mean to say by that, if you consider the amount that I had pledged my credit for, that I had. Representative Burke. And you would have been out that much, would you, or a considerable sum? Mr. Bentley. That would depend. Representative Burke. Can't you be specific? 1614 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Townsend. Ho stated that. Mr. Bentley. I know, but an explanatory answer might be proper. Representative Burke. Let us have the explanatory answer. Mr. Bentley. I want to be square with this committee. Had I taken advantage of taking the lands of the individuals, of this old man's land here, and those individual lands to have paid it all, I might have reimbursed myself to some extent, but I would not have don issue those patents. 35601— pt 13—14 6 1638 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentley. Well, we spent $1,500. Representative Burke. And that money was accounted for in this statement that you testified to, was it not ? Mr. Bentley. Do you mean the statement Representative Burke (interposing). The statement that Senator Robinson interrogated you about the other evening contained various items for attorney's fees in connection with proceedings that were instituted to try and compel the issuance of those patents? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I think that $1,500 in there was expended in an effort to get the Secretary to issue those patents. Representative Burke. Why was it that in your statement it did not appear that you had paid some of these Indians at the time you took those deeds the sums of money that you testify to-night you did pay — $300 in one case ? Mr. Bentley. That had nothing to do with the issuance of the patents. Representative Burke. It had to do with the fund, did it not? So you will understand it, after the legislation you immediately had these Indians meet you somewhere ? Mr. Bentley. Sure. Representative Burke. And they executed deeds ? Mr. Bentley. Yes. Representative Burke. And you paid to those Indians various sums of money, as you have testified ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. A little later you paid out in expenses here in Washington and perhaps elsewhere for service of attorneys and others in trying to get the Secretary of the Interior to do what that act of Congress directed him to do and issue the patents ? Mr. Bentley. Yes; I did. Representative Burke. And you charged up that money in this statement that you testified; but why did you not put in the moneys you had paid those Indians ? Mr. Bentley. Why, because— we took the land in trust, to be sold for the Indians, and made them such advances as their immediate necessities required, and the Indians got that money and had the benefit of it. That would have no proper place in this. Representative Burke. The moneys you were paying those at- torneys you were advancing ? Mr. Bentley. That is a different proposition. Representative Burke. It all had to do with the same proposition 1 Mr. Bentley. It was different entirely. The Indian had deeded his land to me in trust, and I was to make payments to him, and con- tinued to pay him until I paid several thousand dollars to them. That had nothing to do with the expense of getting the patents; that would not be a proper charge in that account in any way. Representative Burke. The money paid for getting the deeds would not be a proper account, although you assumed to account for the moneys that you had received ? Mr. Bentley. I do not understand you. Representative Burke. In your testimony the other night you went on in detail and testified how much monev vou received — $32,000 J Mr. Bentley (interposing). Oh, no. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1639 Representative Btjbke. And $3,000, 1 think, for another gentleman. Mr. ±5entley. You are mistaken. I never testified I got $32,000. Representative Burke. You said to-night, $20,000 Mr. Bentley I think about $20,000 of it was paid. But the sum ot money 1 paid those Indians when they made the deeds, and the sum of money I paid to get the department to follow the law and issue the patents are two separate and totally different propositions entirely. One has nothing to do with the other, absolutely Representative Stephens. How long had these affidavits that you presented to-night been in your possession ? Mr. Bentley. They had been among my papers some little time. g° t J l ,L etter from Jomi A - Bonnet, in which he said he was preparing an affidavit and would forward it soon. I think I have that letter over at the office. Representative Stephens. How did you get the Shafter affidavit? Mr. Bentley. I think I got that at Mr. Field's office, or received it through his office up there. Representative Stephens. The other affidavit — I believe you pre- sented three here ? Mr. Bentley. The Gostin affidavit, I think, was among some papers that Mr. Field handed me; that is my recollection. Representative Stephens. Are either one of those affidavits in the evidence taken before the Senate Committee ? Mr. Bentley. No, sir — no; those are all new. Representative Stephens. This is the first time these have ever been presented ? Mr. Bentley. This is new testimony. Representative Stephens. You know of the facts and matters stated in those affidavits? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Are they true or false ? Mr. Bentley. They are true to the best of my knowledge and be- lief. All of them set out the transactions and conditions at the time that they refer to. Representative Stephens. Are those transactions and conditions mentioned in the printed documents and evidence taken by this Senate investigating committee at Muzquiz and on the border of Texas? Mr. Bentley. The report of the committee to Congress sustains all the things alleged in these affidavits ; the report of the American consul himself sustains the statement that these Federal officers came to cooperate with somebody else that robbed the Indians. Representative Stephens. Who are the men he mentions as hav- ing come down from Oklahoma for the purpose of getting these In- dians' lands ? Mr. Bentley. There were three of them — the men who came to rob the Indians ? Representative Stephens. Yes. Mr. Bentley. He had reference to Grimes-Chapman-Conine com- bination, I think. There were some five or six of them. They are the men that the investigating committee of the Senate found had been brutal and criminal in the treatment of the Kickapoos. Representative Stephens. Is it a fact that they did, in order to get hold of these lands, have those Indians thrown in jail? 1640 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentley. They had them held in jail 14 days. They were arrested some distance from camp, dragged them up in the mud and. held them in jail 14 days, and there were 14 of them. Representative Stephens. Did they get deeds to the land? Mr. Bentley. The day the headmen of the tribe were brought in irons from the Federal prison to the home of the judge in the suburbs, where these forgeries were committed, it appears .the others were assembled and brought there, when these were brought down in irons, so that it would frighten them. Representative Stephens. What about the Government official who went down there? Mr. Bentley. He was responsible for them being in, and he was under the pay of the United States — George A. Outcelt, assistant United States attorney. Representative Stephens. What report was made by this investi- gating committee with reference to his actions in the matter ? Mr. Bentley. The language, or nearly so, is this: That his appear- ance there — unfortunate appearance there — materially aided the rob- bers. That is the report of the committee. Representative Stephens. What was said with reference to your connections in this matter ? Mr. Bentley. The report to Congress of that committee is that, while I had handled large sums of money, I was found to be honest, and I had ever been diligent in protecting the Kickapoo Indians. Representative Stephens. Who were the men who made this re- port ? Mr. Bentley. Senator Teller is chairman, and Senator Curtis and Senator La Follette. Representative Stephens. How long were they investigating this matter ? Mr. Bentley. It covered a period, I think, of nearly three months. Representative Stephens. What years? Mr. Bentley. That was in 1907 and 1908. They began, I think, in December, coming to the border of Mexico at Eagle Pass, Tex., and from there westward to Douglas, Ariz.; and then they came to Shawnee, Okla., and from there to Washington. Representative Stephens. They took evidence in all these places? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Were ever any of these parties who were interested in trying to get these lands away from the Indians indicted in Texas for any crime ; if so, what and where ? Mr. Bentley. In connection with the forgery of the names of the Kickapoos to deeds and the alleged payments, they were indicted 140 times by count against Grimes, Conine, Chapman, and Brown and some Mexican who cooperated with them. These indictments were returned in Maverick County, Tex. Representative Stephens. Were the cases ever brought to trial? Mr. Bentley. No, sir; the governor of the State of Oklahoma would not surrender these parties to the governor of Texas, and Texas was unable to apprehend them. Representative Stephens. Did the governor of Texas make demand on the governor of Oklahoma ? Mr. Bentley. Twice. The governor of Texas sent an agent to Oklahoma for them. KICKAPQO INDIANS. 1641 Representative Stephens. Have they ever been brought to trial for those crimes ? .Mr- Bentley. No, sir; those indictments, through some agreement with the Federal Government, or at the request — I believe when the lands had been returned to the Indians the indictments were dis- missed, is my information. Representative Stephens. Then these deeds that were forced from the Indians in this manner were put on record in Oklahoma ? Mr. Bentlet. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. And suit afterwards brought and those deeds set aside? Mr. Bentley. Suits were brought in the Federal courts and dis- trict courts of Oklahoma — several cases were brought. The Federal courts held the deeds invalid, but what resulted in the return of the lands to the Indiand and the accounting for the rents and profits while these parties had them were: These parties, after being indicted in Texas, and Texas being unable to get them, they were then in- dicted in Mexico, and, of course, when the agent of Mexico came to Oklahoma for them, that was a matter between the United States and Mexico, and then it was that they were imprisoned in the Federal prison at Guthrie. After remaining ther some nine weeks and Mexico being in a state of war, they proposed, or a compromise was made, and they deeded back the land. Representative Stephens. To whom? Mr. Bentlet. To the Indians, and accounted for the rents and profits during the time that they had had them. Representative Stephens. What interest did you have in pro- tecting the Indians and enabling them to get the land back? Mr. Bentley. From the dav I came out of prison and landed in Texas, up to the time that the lands were turned loose, I was in some way actively engaged in either the criminal prosecution of the parties or in the same way or manner endeavoring to get the lands returned. I was in "Washington frequently, and three Assistant Attorney Gen- erals of the United States were from first to last appointed, and I cooperated with them, and I had three times large numbers of Indians before the grand juries of Texas; covering a period from 1906 to 1909 I was continually on the move of some kind, and remained so until the time that Kearful came to Shawnee, Okla., and held a conference with me, and was there several days, and at hi? suggestion a little different policy was pursued, after he came in. Mr. Kearful said that certain officers of the Government were persistent in the theory eternally that this was a fight between Grimes and I over the lands, and that he believed I could be more useful, in view of the peculiar situation, to aid him rather in a quiet way than in the open — than in the way I had worked theretofore, and Kearful impressed me as being a very able man, and was inclined to follow my suggestions and follow out the policy I had formulated to ultimately force them to let go these lands, and I very readily acquiesced in that idea. Representative Stephens. Was it a matter of compromise then, when they turned the lands back ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; purely a matter of compromise. Representative Stephens. Did the Indians then get the lands after this compromise was effected ? 1642 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentlet. Every allottee's land, my recollection is, was deeded back. There was complaint, of course, that these parties who had forged their names should not have been paid for the improvements they put upon the land after they had taken it in that way. In some cases it was shown they had actually paid money. It was agreed by the Government that the lands and profits of the lands should go to those men until that sum should be paid out. But when that settle- ment was made I was not present. Mr. Kearful and the United States attorney for Oklahoma and certain Government officials made those arrangements. I had nothing to do with that feature of it. The Chairman. That is all, Mr. Bentley. TESTIMONY OF MR. FRANK A. THACKERY. The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. You have already made a statement before the Committee on Indian Affairs concerning this Kickapoo matter? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You did not, in that statement, go into your dis- position of the fund you received as trustee for the Oklahoma Kicka- poos? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The Chairman. It is about that that I particularly want to ask you to-night. You received how much as that trustee? Mr. Thackery. $100,851.06. The Chairman. Was that the proportionate part of the $215,000, after the $28,000 fee that was paid to Mr. Bentley was taken out, that went to the Oklahoma Kickapoos ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; 82 in number; 82 out of 157. The Chairman. How long had you been connected with the Kickapoo Indians in Oklahoma? Mr. Thackery. How long had I been at that time ? I took charge there on the 1st day of October, 1901. That was 1908. The Chairman. It had been about seven years, then ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Something over seven years ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What did you do with this fund that you so received ? Mr. Thackery. I endeavored to take it up officially under bond in order that I might better control or have authority over its ex- penditure. But the Comptroller of the Treasury held that I could not be made to account for it officially, under the act appropriating the money, and I therefore held it individually, and later I took up part of it as guardian. I expended it — in the first place, I paid it to them by check; had every check read to the order of the Indian entitled to receive it. As far as I could I sought to have it expended in the improvement of their Oklahoma homes. I built somewhere between 11 and 20 houses on different allotments. We bought a large number of stock and wagons, conveyances, and such things as that. They paid up what debts they owed, which was quite considerable, and it cost them about — in the neighborhood of $7,000 to attend the council provided under this act. They had to go from Oklahoma to Mexico and back. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1643 The Chairman. How was this fund paid over to you ? Mr. Thackery. It was paid by one warrant from the Treasury of the United States. The Chairman. Paid to your order ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What did you do with it ? Mr. Thackery. I indorsed it and cashed it, and deposited the money to my credit as trustee. The Chairman. In what bank? Mr. Thackery. The most of it was in the Shawnee National Bank. I checked it, I think, all through that bank, but for short period- while I had a considerable amount of it I had smaller amounts scats tered in one or two other banks — the Oklahoma National and the State National, and possibly another one. I am not sure about that. The Chairman. What was your object in handling it that way ? Mr. Thackery. Well, no particular object, other than to divide it up between the banks. I checked it, as I say, on the one bank, and when the account ran down I transferred from the other banks to the Shawnee National, on which I was checking. The Chairman. Have you an itemized statement of the fund and the disbursements of it up to date ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. I have not an itemized statement, but I have my book showing the account of each Indian. The Chairman. Did you open an account with each individual Indian of the 82 ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you take receipts for all sums that you ex- pended ? Mr. Thackery. I paid it by check to them, to their order, lhe check itself is the receipt. I have practically all of the canceled onpcks The Chairman. Has your account ever been gone over by any officer ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The Chairman. What amount of funds have you now on hand % Mr. Thackery. I do not know exactly, but $300 or $400. The Chairman. It is all paid out but $300 or $400 % Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I believe you stated that you first sought to take up the money with a bond % Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And you were not permitted to make a bond, or not required to make a bond ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The Chairman. You took up the fund then without any security whatever ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What was your personal financial condition at that time % Mr Thackery. Why, I was worth about $6,000, I guess. The Chairman. Did you call the attention of the Treasury officials to that matter ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I did not. 1644 KIOKAPOO INDIANS. The Chairman. Whom did you take up the question with of making a bond ? Mr. Thackery. At the Indian Office, with several people there. I remember particularly the then Chief of the Education Division, Mr. Dortch. The Chairman. Why did you not take it up with the commissioner himself '? Mr. Thackery. I think I did, but I will not be positive. I dis- cussed it with four or five there in authority! The commissioner, I know, preferred that I give a bond, and it was after discussion with him, either by myself or by the men with whom I had dis- cussed it in the office, that we prepared a bond, and I believed I signed it and sent it in for approval; and then it was that, pending a decision of the comptroller because of the peculiar and rather unusual wording of the act it was a question whether under the act I could be required to account for it. His decision was that I could not, and nothing more was said about the bond. The Chairman. The Comptroller of the Treasury held that under that act of 1908 no accounting whatever was required, and therefore no bond was required of you as disbursing officer ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. I have here an authenticated copy of his decision, which I keep in this book [handing paper to chairman]. The Chairman. You occupy the same legal relationship to the fund which you received for the Oklahoma Indians as Mr. Bentley did for the Mexican Kickapoow ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. He held that under the act of 1908 you and Mr. Bentley became collecting agents for the Indians, and were not required to give any bond for the funds that were paid to you ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Let that go in the record. (The decision referred t > is as follows:) Appeal No. 15286.] Treasury Department, Office of Comptroller of the Treasury, June 8, 1908. The Auditor for the Interior Department, on June 4, 1908, by certificate No. 5393, made a settlement in favor of — O-ke-mah and Martin J. Bentley for $86, 273. 94 To Martin J. Bentley 26, 875. 00 To Frank A. Thackery 101, 851.06 Under and in pursuance of the following act of Congress, approved April 30, 1908: "That there be, and hereby is, appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, the sum of two hundred and fifteen thousand dollars, for the fulfillment of certain treaty obligations to the Mexican Kickapoo Indians for differences arising out of the stipulations of article four of the treaty of June twenty- eighth, eighteen hundred and sixty-two, and for all other differences growing out of any' and all treaties and agreements heretofore made between said Indians and the United States. Said sum of two hundred and fifteen thousand dollars shall be paid by the Secretary of the Treasury as authorized and directed by a majority of the members of said Mexican Kickapoo Tribe in council assembled. Such council shall be composed of a majority of those surviving members of said tribe, male and female, heretofore allotted in Oklahoma. The authorization above mentioned and the pro- ceedings of said council shall be attested by a clerk of the United States district court of the Territory of Arizona. Said sum shall be immediately available and the indorsement of the warrant issued in payment thereof shall be deemed and shall be a receipt in full for all claims of every kind whatsoever of the said Mexican Kickapoo Indians against the United States," KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1645 The Mexican Kickapoo Indians in council assembled on the San Bernardino ranch, Arizona, on the 19th day of March, 1908, adopted a resolution in regard to the payment by the Secretary of the Treasury of said sum of $215,000, as in said resolution set out, and which resolution reads: "Be it resolved, That the Secretary of the Treasury be, and he hereby is, authorized and directed in making payment to the Mexican Kickapoo Indians of the sum of two hundred and fifteen thousand ($215,000) dollars pursuant to said act of Congress to issue the warrant in payment of said sum to O-ke-mah, of Bavispie, Mexico, Martin J. Bentley, and Frank A. Thackery, of Shawnee, Oklahoma; and the said persons are hereby authorized and empowered to receive the said warrant and receipt for and endorse the same for and on behalf of said Mexican Kickapoo Indians." It appears from the reports on file in this case and by the certificates of the clerk of the district court of the second district, Arizona Territory, that a majority of the members of said Mexican Kickapoo Tribe, in council assembled on the 19th day of May, 1908, said council being composed of a majority of those surviving members of said tribe, male and female, heretofore allotted in Oklahoma, directed and author- ized the payment of said sum of $215,000, as in said auditor's settlement set out, and to the persons therein named, and to the amounts therein specified. A question has arisen under the terms of said act and the authority granted by the said Indians in council, whether the persons so authorized to receive said appropriation by said Indians in council as aforesaid should be required to give bond and account to the Treasury Department for the proceeds of said appropriation coming into their hands on warrants herein above mentioned . The Frank A. Thackery named in said settlement and warrant, and one of the per- sons so authorized by said Indians to receive said warrant, is superintendent and special disbursing agent for the Indian Training School, Shawnee, Okla., and now under bond as such agent in the sum of $40,000. The Secretary of the Treasury, because of said question being raised on the 6th day of June, 1908, has directed me to review the said settlement of the auditor before the warrants have been issued and paid thereon with a view to determining whether the persons so directed to receive the proceeds of said settlements and warrants are trustees for the Indians, or should give bonds for the faithful discharge of their duties as such, and account to the United States for said moneys paid out on said warrants. I have no hesitancy in answering each of said questions in the negative. While it is true that Indian agents are responsible to the United States under their bonds for all moneys that may come into their hands, under the law, and are trustees there- for, yet it is only for such Indian moneys as the United States places in their hands as the agents of the United States to carry out some trust obligation of the United States owing to the Indians. These moneys are not placed in the hands of the per- sons designated by these Indians under the act, supra, as the agents of the United States to carry out a trust obligation of the United States with these Indians, but the appropriation is paid to them by the United States as the collecting agents of these Indians, under the sanction and authority of specific law, and when so paid to them, such payment is full and complete acquittance to the United States of the obligation of debt recognized in said act to the Indians, and all other monetary obli- gations which the United States may owe to these Indians. I am therefore of opinion that no bond should be required of the persons selected by the Indians as aforesaid on account of their collection of this appropriation and that they should not be required to account to the Treasury for the proceeds of these warrants. Respectfully, R. J. Teacewell, Comptroller. The Chairman. Have you prepared an itemized statement for the record of your account 1 . Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have the book here from which I could prepare it. There are 82 accounts. I would be glad to prepare one. The Chairman. I wish you would do so, and prepare to explain the disbursements that you have made. Mr. Thackery. Would you like an individual account oi each one, or the total ? ,, The Chairman. I would like an itemized statement ol the account, so that I may ask you about it if there is anything about it that I do not understand. 1646 KIOKAPOO INDIANS. (In response to the foregoing request the witness subsequently sub- mitted the following statement:) [Not submitted.] Senator Lane. Is that your original book of entry ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Is this the only book you kept ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. While we are discussing this point I wish you would explain how you kept this account. Mr. Thackery. After the council in Arizona I came here to Wash- ington and received this warrant. Then I returned to Oklahoma and had a council of the Oklahoma division of these Kickapoos. They wanted to divide this fund with five other Kickapoos ; five other full- blood Indians who had resided with them for a long while. They wanted these five to share equally with them, or nearly all of them did. I took down those council proceedings I now refer to, and it is a part of that book account in which they agreed for these five to share in the $101,000. I then drew checks, according to the agreement of these 82 allottees, prorating the amount that each of the 82 was to give to the five home- less Indians, in order that they might share equally. I did that in order to relieve myself. I drew checks payable to their order and let them then indorse these checks over to the account of these other five homeless Indians. The amount divided up between the 82 was •$1,198.25 in some cases and $1,198.24 in other cases. Then I drew checks to defray the expense of their trip to Douglas, Ariz., to attend this council. At the time they had to go to this council many of them had no funds and they borrowed from others who did have funds; and so the account there will show that the two first cheeks in almost every account was $75 and $71 and some cents. The $75 represented the cost of one person from Shawnee, Okla., to Douglas, Ariz., and on out to the camps some 20 or 30 miles by team, and back to Oklahoma. The $71 and some cents represented the amount that each one was giving to these Hve homeless Indians, which was also taken up and accounted for in the same manner as this. Now, the balance I used the best I could. I had them use it the best I could, with what little authority over it I had, in the improve- ment of their home conditions — their farms. The Chairman. How did you determine what Indians were entitled to share in this fund ? Mr. Thackery. The act itself said that it was to go to the Kickapoo allottees, or words to that effect— those formerly allotted in Okla- homa, of which I had 82. There was 157 living at the time of this act, and of that 157 I had 82 and I believe Mr. Bentley had 75. The Chairman. All of them had been allotted ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; all these 157 were allottees. The Chairman. You had a list of them, did you ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; an allotment roll. The Chairman. And knew who was entitled to share in this distribution ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1647 The Chairman. How did you determine when you would pay an Indian his part of this fund ? Mr. Thackery. Well, there was no established method of deter- mining. He would come and ask for funds for a particular purpose, and if I thought it was right I would give him a check for it. If I thought it was improper, I would try to talk him out of it. Had I held it officially, I could have used more authority over him. In many cases I was compelled to pay it and run the almost sure probability of having a suit filed on me individually for the land. The Chairman. When you paid one Indian something, did you make a distribution to other Indians, or just pay it to them as you thought they needed it? Mr. Thackery. Just as I thought they needed it. The Chairman. Did you pay everything by check? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; except in one case. There is one lone case where I paid a small amount, I think about $161, to an Indian for his medical care and clothing, and one thing and another, when he was about dead with tuberculosis. The Chairman. Could these Indians write? Mr. Thackery. Some of them. The Chairman. How would you determine when an Indian had cashed his check, or whether he had or not? How would you know about that? Did you issue checks to the individual Indians, or did you give them to some one else ? Mr. Thackery. They were issued to the Indians themselves, to their order, making it necessary for them to indorse the check. And many of their checks were witnessed by some person knowing the Indians. The Chairman. Did you have any fixed way of handling that so as to know whether an Indian had in fact indorsed his check — an Indian that could not write and whose signature, if he could write, you did not know? Mr. Thackery. Of course, those that could write, we would know their indorsement on the check as soon as the bank made its state- ment. As to the others, there was no fixed plan of determining this question you raise. The Chairman. Did you know of any cases where you gave checks to the Indians on this fund where the checks were cashed by white men or others for less than the actual amount of the check ? Mr. Thackery. There was no such case ever came to me. I had not heard of it. The Chairman. I will state to you that in some communities that has been quite a common practice in dealing with the Indians. I wondered whether you had ever encountered anything of the sort- Mr. Thackery. Many of our checks would be handled this way: Suppose the Indian wanted to buy a team. I would let him go and look up the team. He would have the seller bring it to the agency headquarters and we would examine the team. If we found the team all right, and the price satisfactory, we would issue a check payable to the order of the Indian and help him to put the proper indorsement on it, and then he would turn it over to the person from whom he had bought the horse. The Chairman. You knew of the transaction itself as well as the way the check was made ? 1648 KIOKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Thackery. Yes. Some of them, however, were given to them, and they took them themselves and cashed them at the banks. The Chairman. Now, in the disbursement of this fund, did you pay every one of these 82 Indians the same amount ? Mr. Thackery. They got $1,198.24 or 25 cents, in order to make the distribution come out even. The Chairman. And after paying that amount you still have about $300 of the common fund undisbursed ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, something like that ; I do not know the exaet amount. I sent for my last bank statement, but I did not get it. It is all the same, excepting these five that are marked "homeless." They are the five whom the other people took in. This, you see, is not the same [indicating], but the amount represented here is accounted for in this. (The witness here exhibited to the commission the account book referred to, and explained certain entries therein.) Mr. Thackery. Practically all of the 82 signed that agreement, but when you get over toward the back you will find two or three that agreed to all except one, so the amounts were a little different. The Chairman. Is this an original document, representing the actual signatures ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who signed those names where the Indians signed by mark ? Mr. Thackery. Those were signed by myself. This is my writing. The Chairman. You signed the names that are signed by mark ? Mr. Thackery. Some of them I did. They were witnessed by persons attending the council. The Chairman. That was all done there in the council, was it, Mr. Thackery ? Mr. Thackery. All of the first ones were done in the council, and some of these who declined to sign came into the office a day or two later and signed to take care of two or three of the five. Practically all of them were signed at the council. The Chairman. What did you do about that as to those who did not sign for all? Mr. Thackery. There were no disbursements made until this was all signed. The Chairman. Some of them did not agree. Mr. Thackery. They all agreed, but some did not agree to dividing up with all of the five homeless Indians. The Chairman. I understand. How did you handle that? Mr. Thackery. It shows here [indicating]. "I agree to the above excepting the payment of $330 to Pe-ah-mah-ske." The Chairman. Did you go ahead and pay them? Mr. Thackery. Oh, no; if you turn to their accounts you will find that their check is less. The Chairman. That is what I wanted to know. So your effort was, as to those homeless Indians, to carry out the wishes of the Indians themselves as expressed in this agreement ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. It was carried out just that way. Senator Townsend. Has there been any complaint about that settlement '( Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have not had any. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1649 The Chairman. I have not heard of any. Kepresentative Burke. Was there any interest ever paid on these deposits ? r Mr Thackery. Yes, sir; there was interest paid at first, when it was first deposited in the bank, about $698; and then later I took it all up in every case where I was guardian of these adult Indians You know, they were mostly adults, and I had been appointed guardian, and the guardian accounts then drew interest. The Chairman. What did you get for your services in handling this account ? Mr. Thackery. I used some of that interest that I speak of— $698. The Chairman. You say you used it. Mr. Thackery. I appropriated it to my own use. I paid some expenses which I could not take care of as Government expenses and the rest I used myself. Then when it was put in as a guardian account — you will notice that a good many of these [indicating] have a check drawn to me as guardian. The interest on all those guardian accounts went to the person for whom I was guardian. The Chairman. Now, how much did you receive in all for your services as trustee in handling this fund of $101,000 ? Mr. Thackery. Well, it was less than $698. The exact amount I do not know. I would have to look it up. The Chairman. That includes the interest item that you speak of ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long a period did that accounting: run over, Mr. Thackery? Mr. Thackery. About two and a half or three years. Of course, I was receiving a salary as superintendent during that time. The Chairman. You say that that appropriation was to the Kick- apoo allottees ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are you certain of that ? Mr. Thackery. Well, it is certainly implied by the act itself. The Chairman. I know, but what does the act say ? Mr. Thackery. I think I had better refer to it [reading] : That there be, and hereby is, appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, the sum of $215,000 for the fulfillment of certain treaty obliga- tions to the Mexican Kickapoo Indians for differences arising out of the stipulations of article four of the treaty of June twenty-eighth, eighteen hundred and sixty-two, and for all other differences growing out of any and all treaties and agreements here- tofore made between said Indians and the United States. Said sum of $215,000 shall be paid by the Secretary of the Treasury as authorized and directed by a majority of the members of said Mexican Kickapoo Tribe in council assembled. The Chairman. Now, that says "Kickapoo Indians." How many Kickapoo Indians are there in Oklahoma, or were there then ? Mr. Thackery. Counting children and all ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Thackery. I could not tell you, but there is, I should say, over 100. The Chairman. How did you reach the conclusion that the fund should be paid to the allottees only? Mr. Thackery. Because further down it provides: Said sum of $215,000 shall be paid by the Secretary of the Treasury as authorized and directed by a majority of the members of said Mexican Kickapoo Tribe in council 1650 KICKAPOO INDIANS. assembled. Such council shall be composed of a majority of those surviving members of said tribe, male and. female, heretofore allotted in Oklahoma. In other words, it was put into their hands to say how it should come to them. It was left with them. First, in a council where both factions were together they said I should receive the part belonging to Oklahoma Indians. Then the Oklahoma Indians met in council — which is described in this proceeding to which I have called your attention in my account book — and further directed how theirs should be paid. So that while it was not paid direct to children of these allottees it did go to the parents and the children necessarily benefited; and more than that, it went to the parents by direction of the tribe who were given authority by this act to say how it should be paid. The Chairman. How did you keep your accounts with those banks; or did you let the banks keep the account? Mr. Thackery. They rendered a statement. The Chairman. How did you know what funds you had in the respective banks? Did you keep it in this book? Mr. Thackery. I kept only the account of the Shawnee National Bank on which I checked in this particular book. I have the bank statements of the other banks. They held it only a short time. Practically the whole amount is in the Shawnee National Bank, Shawnee, Okla. The Chairman. Have you those bank books that contain those accounts ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have not. I wired as soon as I came for everything pertaining to this matter. The Chairman. What interest did the banks allow you on those deposits ? Mr. Thackery. I do not remember. It was an open account, and I think it was either 3 or 4 per cent for a short-time deposit. Later when it was taken up and accounted for as guardian it was more. Senator Townsend. What was it then ? Mr. Thackery. I think it was 5, but I would not be positive. [To Supt. Buntin.] What do you get ? Mr. Buntin. Four per cent. Mr. Thackery. Under a bond ? Mr. Buntin. On daily balances; yes. Mr. Thackery. And the bank, in addition to its ordinary security as a bank, gives an additional surety company bond ? Mr. Buntin. Yes. The Chairman. Did you undertake to see how the Indians spent this money when you paid it to them? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I did everything that I could, under existing conditions, to have it judiciously spent. The Chairman. There was nothing in the law requiring you to do that ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The Chairman. So far as the act itself goes, you could have paid the entire amount to each Indian at once without regard to what dis- position he might make of it ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Were those Indians, in fact, competent, Mr. Thackery ? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1651 Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I would not call any of them competent to judiciously spend that amount of money — the total amount due each one, I mean. The Chairman. How did you determine what payment ought to be made to an Indian ? Mr. Thackery. By an acquaintance with the Indian himself for a number of years as his superintendent, and by knowing what his allotment needed in the way of improvements, and what proper debts he had that should be paid, or what he needed in the way of stock or farming implements. The Chairman. How many of them used this fund in making improvements on their allotments? _ Mr. Thackery. I have marked on that book 20 who used it par- tially, at least, for houses. Of that number I am sure that 11 built new houses, costing from $800 down to — the least I recall was a $300 house. Others bought wire and put up sheds, and in one or two cases, I believe, a well was dug. The Chairman. Are you familiar with the condition of these Indians now, Mr. Thackery ? Mr. Thackery. I have not seen them for about two years. The Chairman. What was their condition when you left them ? What per cent of them or what number of them could farm success- fully? Mr. Thackery. If you mean by successful farming the standard of a white farmer, there was not very many of them that were farming successfully. They had been farming for a number of years — well, I would say from 5 to 15 or 20, and some few a 40-acre tract of land each year. The Chairman. How is that ? Mr. Thackery. They had been farming all the time I was there, and before that and since that, from 5 to 40 acres each, a number of them; I would say 25 to 30 of the men. Tne Chairman. How long were you superintendent of that agency ? Mr. Thackery. From October 1, 1901 to- ■ Mr. Buntin. June 15, 1911 ? Mr. Thackery. June 15, 1911. The Chairman. Nearly 10 years then ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What do you say with reference as to whether they were forward or backward in their ordinary affairs of life ? Mr. Thackery. I think they were forward. However, they did not go forward as much as they would have gone had it not been for this agitation. There was agitation there during most of the time I was superintendent, and that interfered. The Chairman. How many of them were actually farming when you left them ? Mr. Thackery. I do not know accurately, but I should say there was — f these 82 allottees there would be at least half that number of men. I should say that at least 25 of them had farms and were cul- tivating small tracts. The Chairman. Were you a stockholder m the bank at bnawnee ( Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I was not. The Chairman. Did you own any stock at all ? 1652 KIOKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Thackery. No; not there. I owned a little bank stock with a cousin of mine at a little town a distance away, but I had no ofllcial deposit in it. The Chairman. You distributed this fund, amounting to $101,000, among the allottees on the theory that the children of the allottees were not entitled to share in the distribution? Mr. Thackery. On the theory, at least, that under the law the Indians had directed the manner in which I should spend it, thinking they had a right under the law to say how it should be spent, and also thinking that their children, who might have a right under some other theory of the law, were cared for by the parents using the money in their behalf. The Chairman. To what members of the tribe were the allotments originally made ? Do you know ? Representative Burke. Who were they ? Mr. Thackery. All of them — men, women, and children. There was an enrollment made, and every Kickapoo was supposed to receive 80 acres at the time the allotments were made, 1894. The Chairman. Now, you closed a number of these accounts with these individual Indians by charging the balance off to yourself as guardian ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know in how many cases you did that? Mr. Thackery. I did it in every case where I was guardian. I not only did that, but I accounted for the whole amount in my guardian accounts, under bond, to the court. In other words, my guardian account shows the total amount — the $1,198.25. Senator Lane. Is the guardian account in this book ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; the guardian account is filed with the courts in three different counties in Oklahoma. The Chairman. Have your accounts all been approved, Mr. Thackery ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have you copies of those accounts as guardian? Mr. Thackery. The copies are on file at the Indian agent's office at Shawnee. The Chairman. How much of this fund is still in your hands as guardian of these respective Indians ? Mr. Thackery. None whatever; I have turned it over to my suc- cessor — Supt. Buntin. The Chairman. You have settled all those accounts ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What was the object in closing these accounts by checking out to yourself as guardian? I did not quite understand what the purpose of that was. Mr. Thackery. I did that under advice of the United States attorney. The Chairman. Who was he? Mr. Thackery. John Embry. You see, I had been appointed for all those adult Indians, not with the idea of taking their funds over and handling them as guardian, but the idea of, through this appoint ment as guardian, making it impossible for any land speculators to take them from Oklahoma to Mexico, make them nonresidents, and get deeds under this 1906 act. I took them before the court, the KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1658 adult Indians, and asked the court to examine them and enter a decree as to whether he found them competent or incompetent. He found them incompetent and appointed me as their guardian— adults, mind you. The Chairman. And your object in doing that was to — — Mr. Thackery. To make it impossible for people to make them nonresidents, to take them to Mexico and make them nonresidents, under the act of 1906, and then take deeds to their land as non- residents. I, as guardian, and the court having found them incom- petents, would put it in a condition where they could not get a good title. The Chairman. The act of 1906 apparently removing the restric- tions, if an Indian who was then resident in Oklahoma had been induced to go to Mexico he could have, deeded his property away but for the fact that he had been declared incompetent by a court there and you had been appointed guardian ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And was that your object? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sk. And after I had proceeded with those disbursements of this money for several months the United States attorney suggested that in veiw of the fact that I had been appointed guardian and was receiving this money for these people, even though they were incompetents, and I had not originally expected to handle their funds, in order to have it straight I had better account for those funds as guardian, which I did. The Chairman. Well, did you take any deeds to any of the prop- erty of the Indians for whom you were acting as guardian or trustee ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; except in the final settlement. Mr. Bentley and Mr. Ives and the Chapman-Grimes people, prior to the decision of the Federal court annulling this act, quitclaimed back to me whatever title they may have acquired under the 1906 act. They did that under instruction or advice from the United States at- torney The Chairman. To what land ? Mr. Thackery. To all of the allotments that had been clouded under that 1906 act. The Chairman. Were those the allotments of Indians still resid- ing in Oklahoma that were deeded back to you, or allotments of Indians who had gone to Mexico ? Mr. Thackery. Mostly in Mexico, but a few of them in Oklahoma. As soon as the court rendered its decision that this 1906 act did not make it possible for them to convey without the approval of the Secretary, then I quitclaimed back to the Government, I think, in trust for the Indians, so that the title was then in its original state. The Chairman. Did you sell any lands that were conveyed to you, or did you undertake to sell them ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir — well, I sold one of the allotments from which the restrictions were removed under the 1905 act— one of the seven. Under the settlement that was quitclaimed to me as trustee. I did sell that, and I have a part of the fund and a mortgage on the land for the balance in that particular case. The part of the fund I have and the unpaid notes bear 7 per cent interest. Senator Lane. Are you still acting as guardian in that case? 35601— pt 13—14 7 1654 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Thackeev. As trustee, not as guardian, in that case. The Chairman. What was the consideration of that deed? Mr. Thackery. $2,650. The Chairman. What amount of that have you still on hand? Mr. Thackery. I have received one payment of $560, I think — a thousand of it, anyway. But of that amount I have, I should say, about $415 or $420 in the Salt River Valley Bank in Mesa, Ariz. For the balance I have notes bearing 7 per cent interest, secured by a mortgage on the land. Senator Lane. How long have those notes been running ? Mr. Thackery. I should say about a year; possibly not quite a year — 9 months or a year. Senator Lane. You made this sale about a year ago? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. ' Senator Lane. Were you on the reserve at the time? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Senator Lane. You were still guardian for them and had moved somewhere else ? Mr. Thackery. No; not guardian; I was trustee for this one allottee only. Senator Lane. How did it happen that you remained trustee when you were not there any longer? Mr. Thackery. I did it by direction of the Interior Department. This was a case where the title — the restrictions had been actually removed. It was one of the seven. Had it been in the same class as the 1906 act I would have reconveyed and the Government would have held it in trust; but as it was the title was naturally vested in the Indian, and it was necessary for me to hold it as trustee. The Indian lives in Mexico, in Sonora, and has a son where the superin- tendent resides. I am willing to turn it over. I would be very glad to get rid of it. The Chairman. You were superintendent of that agency when you were made trustee ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You objected to the moving of the Indians to Mexico ? Mr. Thackery. I advised the Indians against it, because I did not have any faith in the proposition. The Chairman. Did you go down to Mexico at any time when those parties were trying to get deeds from the Indians for the Okla- homa allotments ? Mr. Thackery. I was in Mexico when the act of June 21, 1906, was passed. This was in Eagle Pass, Tex. The Chairman. What were you doing there ? Mr. Thackery. I had been sent down to assist the assistant United States attorney in procuring evidence with relation to the deeds taken on the seven allotments under the act of March 3, 1905, in the hope that those deeds, which we then believed to be improper, might be set aside and the rights of the Indians protected. While we were there this other act became a law. The Chairman. Did you undertake to get deeds or induce Indians to make deeds to any of their lands ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I did not. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1655 The Chairman. Did you have any part in the alleged attempts to despoil them that we have heard so much about ? Mr. Thackery. None whatever. The Chairman. Did you know of that being done ? What do you know about it ? Mr. Thackery. I was in Eagle Pass part of the time, and most of these alleged frauds were committed some 70 to 100 miles away, in Mexico — some 70 miles or 100 mihs distant from Eagle Pass, in Mexico. I knew very little personally of these transactions — almost nothing, but when I first reached Muzquiz a bunch of these Oklahoma men were there waiting for this bill, then pending, to become a law. At the time I first visited Muzquiz the Bentley faction was appa- rently in control of the situation. They seemed to have the good will and cooperation of the Mexican officials, and I did not like the looks of that situation. And it was not more than a matter of two or three weeks until he had been dethroned and the other fellows were in con- trol. I advised the department fully of the whole condition, and urged particularly that the whole Indian bill, if necessary, should be vetoed. The Chairman. How did you advise that? Mr. Thackery. By wire and by letter. There are 15 or 20 letters and more than that number of telegrams in the record. The Chairman. Were all of them put in the record by the com- mittee, ? Mr. Thackery. I won't be sure that all of them were, but many of them are there. They are scattered through the record. If they could be read consecutively they would show clearly what I did. The Chairman. Have you copies of all that correspondence? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you want to put it in the record? Mr. Thackery. I should be very glad to. The Chairman. You may furnish them to the stenographer, if you please. Furnish copies of the communications you had at that time, and furnish them in chronological order. (The correspondence subsequently submitted by the witness in response to the foregoing request is as follows :) Office of the United States Attorney, District of Oklahoma, Guthrie, April 20, 1906. Hon. Frank A. Thackery, Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent, Shawnee, Okla. Dear Sir- This office is in receipt of a letter from the Attorney General of the United States in reference to the conduct of Martin J. Bentley in securing deeds from certain Kickapoo Indians for their allotments in this Territory, the restrictions upon alienation of which were removed hy the act of Congress approved March 3, 1905. The Attorney General directs me to assign an assistant attorney to make a thorough investigation of this case, with a view of taking such action as may be found proper or expedient to protect the Indians, or to prosecute Mr. Bentley if the investigations should disclose that he has committed an offense against the United States the lem- tory of Oklahoma, or the State of Texas. In compliance with the instructions of the Attorney General I have detailed Assistant Attorney George A. Outcelt to make the investigation, on account of his experience with Indian affairs. The Attorney General suggests that the assistant attorney should go to Eagle fass, Tex., and to Mexico, and among the Kickapoo Indians Bentley induced to remove to Mexico. And inasmuch as you are personally acquainted with these Indians and have made a trip or two to the locality where they are located, I thmk it of the utmost 1656 KICKAPOO INDIANS. importance that, you accompany Mr. Outcelt on this trip, and assist him in securing the statements of the Indians. You should take with you an interpreter upon whose honesty you can rely, to the end that every statement you obtain may be relied upon. It will also be necessary to secure in Mexico some person who can speak the Spanish language to assist you. The honorable Secretary of the Interior, in his letter transmitting the papers in this case to the Department of Justice, states that the De- partment of the Interior will render all of the assistance possible in this investigation, and I am quite sure that if you will advise your department that you have been re- quested by me to accompany Mr. Outcelt and assist in the investigation, and that it will be necessary to have the interpreters suggested above, you will be instructed to go with Mr. Outcelt and to employ such interpreters as you will find necessary. I trust you will take this matter up with the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs at once, to the end that an early investigation may be made. Very respectfully, J. W. Scothorn, United States Attorney. United States Indian Agency, Shawnee, Okla., April 21, 1906. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: I have the honor to inclose herewith a letter just received from Hon, John W- Scothorn, United States .attorney for Oklahoma, which refers to the matter of Mr. Bentley's connection with the removal of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians of this agency to Mexico. He desires that I be authorized to accompany his assistant United States attorney and to employ an Indian interpreter from here to go with us to Mexico, and to employ a Spanish interpreter after reaching Mexico . I can get an Indian interpreter for $2.50 per day and his expenses, but for a Spanish interpreter I should be authorized to pay $4 per day and his expenses. In order to properly investigate the matter of any proposed title to land claimed by Mr. Bentley on behalf of the Kickapoos, I should be authorized to go to such places in Mexico as found necessary. In this connection I would respectfully refer to your letter dated January 19, 1906, directing that I withhold all money due the Mexican Kickapoo Indians residing in Mexico. It is probable that we would find the Kickapoo in a condition not conducive to our getting much evidence from them unless this order as to paying them their money might be temporarily suspended and I be authorized to pay them the lease money or monthly allowance of inherited Indian land money now due them from this office. It might be found advisable not to make any payment, but it would seem proper that I be given some discretion in the matter, so that we could better meet conditions as we find them upon our arrival there. I think it is advisable that the United States consul (and such other representa- tives of the United States as you may suggest who might be able to aid in the case) be requested, through the proper channels, to give us every possible assistance in getting at the facts of this whole matter. I would ask that this matter be made spe- cial, since it is important that as much evidence as possible be secured while Mr. Bentley is still in Washington, for with his presence with the Indians in Mexico it would be very difficult to get anything out of the Kickapoo Indians. If it is thought advisable that I go with the assistant United States attorney I should be wired to that effect, so that preparations can be started at once. Very respectfully, Frank A. Thackery, Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent. Department of the Interior, Washington, May 7, 1906. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Sir: In compliance with your recommendation of the 3d instant, authority is hereby granted the superintendent of the Shawnee Indian School, Oklahoma, to pro- ceed to such points in the Republic of Mexico as may be necessary to assist Mr. George A. Outcelt in making an investigation for the Department of Justice in relation to the connection of M, J. Bentley with the transfer of certain Kickapoo allotments; also to employ one Indian interpreter at not to exceed $2.50 per day and one Spanish interpreter at not to exceed $4 per day; also to pay the traveling and other neces- sary expenses incurred by himself or on behalf of the interpreters employed and to KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1657 expend for these purposes not to exceed $500, payable "Contingencies, Indian De- authoriz d y ° U StatC WU1 n0t be exceeded if these expenditures are Authority is also granted said superintendent to make such payments of lease money or inherited-land money to Indian allottees or their heirs in Mexico as he may think advisable from funds due them and now on deposit to the superintendent's omciai credit as individual Indian moneys. The inclosures of your letter are herewith returned. Very respectfully, E. A. Hitchcock, Secretary. [Telegram.] Shawnee, Okla., May 18, 1906. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C: About 20 Kickapoo Indians were deceived into secretly leaving for Mexico yester- day, the object evidently being to make them nonresidents and get deeds for their allotments under supposed legislation by this Congress. Thackery, Superintendent. [Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service.] United States Indian Agency, Shawnee, Okla., May 18, 1906. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: In confirmation of my telegram of even date, which reads as follows: "Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C: "About 20 Kickapoo Indians were deceived into secretly leaving for Mexico yes- terday, the object evidently being to make them nonresidents and get deeds for their allotments under supposed legislation by this Congress " — I have the honor to state that this matter was reported to us this morning by a dele- gation of Kickapoo Indians, who are very much aggrieved and discouraged over the matter. From their report to me it is learned that one Louis C. Grimes, of Harrah, Okla., assisted by Cal Moore, also of Harrah, Okla., visited all the Indians residing in the locality of the towns of Harrah and Mcl.oud, Okla., on the 16th and 17th instant and advised them that there was to be a big payment in Mexico in the near future and that I had directed that these Indians go at once to be present at this payment. A great deal has been published in the papers of late with reference to the removal of restrictions from the Kickapoo allotments of this agency, and also of the amend- ment to the Indian bill providing for payment of certain moneys to the Kickapoos. These Kickapoos were evidently led to believe that the Indian appropriation bill had passed and, as a consequence, the payment would be made in the near future. There are still about 60 members of the Kickapoo Tribe residing at this place and every effort is now being made to have them removed to Mexico, it being the general supposition that the restrictions will be removed from their allotments in the very near future. This matter is referred to you for your information in connection with the proposed legislation with reference to these Kickapoos and with the further view of asking your advice as to any possible means of protecting these Indians. I have about exhausted my persuasive resources in endeavoring to persuade these Indians not to desert their valuable allotments at this agency, as well as not to be deceived into schemes of their designing neighbors. Very respectfully, Frank A. Thackery, Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent. 1658 KICKAPOO INDIANS. [Telegram.] Muzquiz, Mexico, May 29, 1906. Commissioner Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C: We find no title of record for Kickapoo Indians for land in Mexico, notwithstanding Bentley's statement before Senate committee. F. A. Thackery, Superintendent. [Telegram.; Eagle Pass, Tex., June 1, 1906. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, I). C: Mexican authorities at Muzquiz refuse to recognize Outcelt and myself as Oja's representatives of the United States until they receive proper directions from Mexican Government. We visited Kickapoo camp May 30, and were ordered away by police- men, who were acting underwritten direction of chief politico of Muzquiz munici- pality. Later we interviewed said official and there had his order interpreted, finding that in reality it places Bentley in full control of the land upon which Kickapoos reside, with several policemen at Bentley's command. We find eight Oklahoma men at Muzquiz to buy Kickapoo land, in case restrictions are removed. Bentley's evident object in securing official order mentioned above is, first, to prevent our investigation, and, second, to make it impossible for an outsider to purchase Kickapoo lands, excepting through Bentley. It is further reported with apparent truthfulness that the vice American consul is to go to Muzquiz to take acknowledgments to deeds for Bentley. If restrictions are removed this should be prevented, thus making it necessary for Indians to go to Eagle Pass to acknowledge deeds where there would be competition for their lands. It is evident that Mexican laws have been violated in dealings with Kickapoos, and Outcelt and myself urge that authority be granted to expend not exceeding $500 in employing Mexican attorney to prosecute violations of Mexican laws in dealing with Kickapoos. This action would better open up the case for prosecution in United States. Collector of Customs Dowe could render us valuable assistance if he could be authorized to go with us. He is well acquainted in Mexico and understands their laws and ways. Wire me whether to wait (here) or elsewhere for further orders. Thackery, Superintendent. United States Customs Service, Port of Eagle Pass, Tex., June 2 , 1906. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, I). C. Sir: I have the honor to refer to my telegram of yesterday with reference to the Mexican officials refusing to recognize Mr. Outcelt and myself as representatives of the United States until they received proper directions from the Mexican Government and to explain the matter further as follows: We left Shawnee on May 21, arriving here on the 23d of May. Upon our arrival here we called upon Collector of Customs R. W. Dowe, who has been exceedingly kind and helpful to us in our work. He advised us of the difficulties he has had with Mr. W. A. Bonnett, president of the Border National Bank of this place, in the way of smuggling diamonds and other valuable articles across from Mexico in order to avoid paying duty. Mr. Dowe has other apparently conclusive evidence against Mr. Bon- nett along the same hue, which is not mentioned in the copy of his letter which I mailed you a few days ago. Mr. Bennett's connection with this smuggling appears to date back several years and is believed to have been quite extensive. That there is an improper connection with this Mr. Bonnett and his father, J. A. Bonnett, vice consul at this place, on one side and Mr. Bentley on the other, I have but little doubt. The general reputation of these two men (Mr. Bonnett and his son) here where they have lived for many years is not very good. It is evident, then, that any moneys due the Indians of this locality should be paid to them through some other source than the Border National Bank, as is, or was, originally specified in the Indian bill now pending before Congress. As suggested in my telegram, it was arranged by Mr. Bentley for the vice consul, J. A. Bonnett, to go with Bentley to the Indian camp near Muzquiz, Mexico, for the purpose of taking the acknowledgments to deeds in the KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1659 s. event that the restrictions are removed from the Kickapoo and other allotments this should be taken up with the State Department with the view of having Mr Bonnett directed not to take the acknowledgments to these deeds _ Before leaving Eagle Pass, and by the assistance of Mr. Dowe, we secured letters of introduction from the Mexican federal judge of the Muzquiz district to the authorities at Menclova and Muzquiz, Mexico. Monclova is the town where all deeds and land transactions are recorded for the whole district wherein the Indians propose to pur- chase lands and reside. We went from here to Monclova, and after the authorities there had made a careful search of the records (three days' search), the official in charge of the land office gave us a certificate showing that nothing had been recorded in his office showing title of any description to any lands in his district, either in the name of Mr. Bentley or of the Indians. We then proceeded to Muzquiz, and on the morning of May 30 called at the office of the highest official of that locality. He was not there so we left our card and went out to the Kickapoo camp, about' 12 miles distant, not having met the official. We reached the Indian camp about 3 o'clock p. m., and found the Indians mostly all dancing. We did not bother them, nor even talk to them more than to greet those who spoke to us, or to answer the few questions asked of us. With the exception of John Mine and his brother, Wah pe che quah, the Indians seemed pleased to see us, inviting us to stop at their camp and eat with them. In a few moments after reaching the camp we joined some other white men where they were fishing in the Sabinas River near by. We returned to the Indian camp about dark and found Wah pe che quah waiting for us. Upon approaching close to him he advised us that we must leave their camp, and that the Mexican officials had so directed. We advised him that we would obey the Mexican officials, but not him. Soon after reaching the camp the Mexican policemen (I think there were four) ap- peared and stated that they were directed by the chief politico to request us to leave the Indian camp immediately or we would be arrested. This order included all white men on the grounds. Henry Jones, our Indian interpreter, and a Mr. Beaty then stated that the Mexican policemen had, a short time previously, showed them the order, and that it was signed by Martin J. Bentley rather than by the chief politico. We then asked the policemen to permit us to see the order, but they would not, or at least did not, show it to us. They insisted, however, that it was from the chief politico at Muzquiz, whereupon we agreed to leave the Indian camp and land. We went to Muzquiz that night and called upon the chief politico the following morning. He had an interpreter (Dr. Long) read us his order in English. The order, as interpreted to us, amounted to the placing of Mr. Bentley in full control of the land where the Indians are located, with several policemen at Bentley's command. No person, therefore, can see or talk to one of the Indians unless he do so through Mr. Bentley or take the risk of being arrested by the Mexican policemen. It is very evident that Mr. Bentley s object is to prevent our investigation, and to make it impossible for the other white men who are there to buy land to deal with the Indians excepting through him. We found eight Oklahoma men at Muzquiz for the purpose of buying Kickapoo lands in the event of the removal of the restric- tions. These eight men represent many other men in Oklahoma who have sent the cash here to pay the Indians for their lands. While they expect to get it cheap, I am convinced that they will pay three or four times the amount that Mr. Bentley expects to pay them. A further part of Mr. Bentley's scheme seems to be. as referred to before, to have the American vice-consul, J. A. Bonnett, go to this land where Mr. BeDtley has the Indians so completely under his control, to take their acknowledge- ments to deeds, thus avoiding a possibility of Mr. Bentley not being able to purchase every Kickapoo allotment in Oklahoma. If Mr. Bonnett is prevented from going over there 'to take these acknowledgements, then the Indians must come to Eagle Pass to acknowledge these deeds, and whenever they get into our country there will be sharp competition for the purchase of their lands. This competition seems to be exactly what Mr. Bentley wants to avoid. Since telegraphing you yesterday Mr. Doive informs me that Vice-Consul Bonnett called at his office last evening and spoke of the Bentley-Kickapoo case, stating that Bentley wanted him (the vice-con- sul) to go to Muzquiz to take the acknowledgements to the Kickapoo deeds. Mr. Bonnett wanted Mr. Dowe's advice in the matter, and Mr. Dowe urged him to have nothing whatever to do with the acknowledgments to the deeds even if Mr. Bentley and the Indians called upon him at his post of duty, which is just across the river in Mexico from this town (Eagle Pass). Mr. Bonnett promised, or gave Mr. Dowe to understand, that he would have nothing further to do with the matter. In my telegram of yesterday I urged that authority be granted to employ a Mexican attorney to prosecute violations of Mexican laws in this Kickapoo case. Both Mr. Outcelt and Mr. Dowe concur with me in this plan. It seems very essential in order to get a proper start for prosecution in the United States. It is further advisable as a 1660 KICKAPOO INDIANS. means of protection to both the United States and Mexico, because I am convinced that unless some decisive steps are taken (assuming that the restrictions will be re- moved from the Kickapoo and other Indian lands) to protect the rights of these Indians under the laws of both the United States and Mexico they are going to lose everything they have in the United States without acquiring anything in Mexico. Thejt will then be paupers on the hands of either the United States or Mexico. The question for our country to decide at this time seems to me to be which country is to be bur- dened with them as such paupers. It seems to me that the United States should now, before it is too late, have such an understanding with Mexico as will definitely settle this point. If these Indians are to lose all that we have given them in our country, we do not want Mexico to call upon us to take these Indians back to the United States as she has already done once about 35 or 40 years ago. If they are to settle in Mexico as her citizens, it should be to the interest of Mexico to see that they acquire a proper title to some land upon which to live and work out their subsistence. The United States should have an equal interest in their getting a proper title to land in Mexico, in order that they may not drift back upon us penniless. Again, it is my opinion that the men who are back of this scheme of removing Indians from the United States to Mexico fully expect to make it a wholesale business, covering as many tribes of Indians as they can persuade into their trap. I urge, therefore, that the part of the United States in this matter be thorough. We should have the fullest support possible in the way of authorities, and any assistance that your office can secure for us through the Treasury Department or through the State Department with the Mexican officials should be given at once. Mr. Dowe states that he would willingly go with us into Mexico and assist us, if authorized to do so by his department. He has been in this country many years, a,nd has a large acquaintance with both Mexicans and United States officials of this locality. He speaks Spanish, and is well acquainted with Mexican laws and ways. He would be of great assistance to us further, as his whole heart seems to be bent on the exposure of crookedness and the purification of political and Government matters generally. Very respectfully, Frank A. Thackery, Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent. [Telegram.] Eagle Pass, Tex., June 2, 1906. Commissioner Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C: Message just received from Outcelt, at Muzquiz, as follows: "Murdock and three other Indians arrested. Murdock was put to work on street as soon as Bentley learned he was employed as our interpreter. Bentley made a speech at camp last night, in which he stated that he would have every Indian sent to jail who did not deed him their land. Field is here. Wire department full par- ticulars. "Outcelt." Authority should be granted at once to employ Mexican attorney and assistant of Mexican officials secured at earliest possible date. Thackery, Superintendent. ., Eagle Pass, Tex., via Diaz, June 2, 1906. Ueorge Outcelt, Muzquiz: Do not pay any debts of Indians at present. Letter follows: l> EAL -] Thackery. ._, , Muzquiz, June 2, 1906. I 1 rank A. Thackery, Eagle Pass, Tex.: Arrested Murdock and three other Indians. Murdock was put to work on street as soon as Bentley learned he was employed as an interpreter. Bentley made a speech at .camp last night in which he stated that he would have every Indian sent to jail who did not deed him their land. Field is here. Wire department full particulars. [seal.] Outcelt. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1661 Outcelt, Muzquiz: EAOLE PA88 ' TeX - via Diaz > June g > 1906 - hele^Canf L f ?T, rded 1° "iW; l am ordered to wait furth er instructions nere. .uo all that you can to get Murdock out. L '-' Thackery. [Telegram.] Eagle Pass, Tex., June 3, 1906. Commissioner Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C: ^Z^ USt ™ d * long consultation with most eminent and reliable Mexican attorney tn^tl^JTTh ^f ¥ ly "^standing the whole Kickapoo matter this attorney urges that Outcelt and myself take delegation of five Indians to Mexico City and lay whole matter before President Diaz, asking Diaz to send a Government commission to Muzquiz immediately, with full authority to act in this whole matter because of apparent connection of Bentley with local officials at Muzquiz. The above plan is the only proper solution of the difficulty. Mexican attorney here is certain that Diaz will promptly comply with joint request from Indians and our Government. This will bring whole matter fairly before Mexican Government. Uurbtate officials should be directed to arrange matters for us in Mexico City. Should Indian bill pass with provisions for payment of money or for removal of restrictions, the President should be urged not to sign bill at least until proposed Mexican Gov- ernment co m mission reaches Muzquiz. Thackery, Superintendent. Eagle Pass, Tex., June 4, 1906. Dear George: Have not received any further instructions yet from department. .Russell Johnston did not send your message to Mr. Scothorn until he reached here and turned it over to me to send. I took the liberty of adding a little to it in order to have Scothorn better understand matters here and with my recommendations to Interior Department. The message I sent read as follows: Scothorn, Guthrie, Ohla.: Bentley interfering with our work every way possible. Arrested interpreter to-day. Claims to have been sent here by Government. Best Mexican attorneys urge that we visit Mexico City with small delegation of Indians and lay whole matter before Diaz, requesting that he appoint a commission to go to Muzquiz immediately and take up whole matter under Mexican laws. Thackery has made similar request to Interior Department. This would open up matters for prosecution in the United States. Outcelt, Assistant Attorney. On Sunday morning I had a conversation of several hours with Mexican district attorney for this part of northern Mexico. He requested that our conversation be strictly confidential; but after fully understanding whole situation at Muzquiz he said not to employ an attorney, but to keep whole matter strictly to ourselves and slip out a few (five, say) of most reliable Indians who have been residing at Muzquiz for some time and take them immediately to see Diaz, asking him to send a commis- sion to take full control {for Mexican Government) of whole Kickapoo situation at Muzquiz. The district attorney is very sure that Diaz will readily respond to this request when he understands the whole situation. _ No person but you and I should know of this plan for the present. In the mean- time you should get as many of the Indians up here to Eagle Pass as possible by work- ing with those other white fellows at Muzquiz. Grimes would be your best help in getting the Indians out. The district attorney suggested that they take the train at Sabinas rather on the quiet. The one man should be there to get them on the train and one up here and that the others should remain at Muzquiz ignorant of the whole matter. All proper debt will be paid at Muzquiz, but it is the desire to have them properly investigated by this commission before they are paid. Be very careful what you do. I think that a good delegation to take to Mexico City would be Pah pe ah she (the man who drove us in from Indian camp), Ah ne- she nen ne, Willie Murdock (now here), Chah ko sot, and either Ah ten y tuck or Ah kis kuck. We would have to take either Mack Johnston or Thos. Alford as inter- preter — preferably the latter. As stated before, it is of particular importance that no one know of this trip until our mission is accomplished, for it would just give them a chance to better fortify themselves. Sincerely, Thackery, Superintendent. 1662 KICKAPOO INDIANS. [Telegram.] Eagle Pass, Tex., June i, 1906. Commissioner op Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C: Vice-Consul Bonnelt has declined to go to Muzquiz to acknowledge deeds, but has arranged for Consular Agent M. O. Harsh, of Sierramojada, Mexico, to go in his place. Thackery, Superintendent. [Telegram.] Eagle Pass, Tex., June 5, 1906. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C: Reliable Indian informs me to-day that Bentley now has all roads to Indian camp guarded and with assistance of Mexican policemen no person is allowed to enter or leave Indian camp, except by Bentley's permission. I sincerely hope in behalf of Indians that restrictions will not be removed and no money paid Indians at present. Thackery, Superintendent. Eagle Pass, Tex., via Diaz, June .5, 1906. George Outcelt, Minr/wa: Forward my mail here; expect definite instructions soon. [seal.] Thackery. [Telegram.; Eagle Pass, Tex., June 6, 1906. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C: If Indian bill passes removing restrictions from Indian tribes named therein as affiliating with Kickapoos Bentley and associates expect to remove said tribes to Mexico as soon as possible, and already have their plans well arranged to accomplish this work. The allotments of all of said tribes are valuable for farms, and Cherokee Shawnee allotments are especially valuable for oil. I again urge that President be asked to veto Indian bill if necessary to prevent consummation of this scheme. Thackery, Superintendent. C. Porfirio Diaz, via Dtaz, June 7, 1906. George Outcelt, Hotel Central, Muzquiz: Wire me immediately if everybody is all right. If not, give particulars. [seal.] Thackery. Muzquiz, June 7, 1906. Frank A . Thackery, 0. P. Diai. Yes. Authorities weakening. Boys go to camp to-night. [seal.] Outcelt. Department of the Interior, Washington, June 11, 1906. The Chairman of the Committee on Indian Affairs, United States Senate. Sir: Referring to department letter of June 7, 1906, in connection with amendment No. 136 to the Indian appropriatino bill, H. R. 15331, calling attention to certain tele- grams received from Superintendent Thackery, in charge of the Kickapoo Indians, KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1663 wherein the hope was expressed that the restrictions relating to the sale of Kickapoo lands will not be removed and that no money be paid said Indians at present, i have i a- ?« • tra ;" 8m } t herewith a copy of a report from the Acting Commissioner of Indian Affairs, dated the 8th instant, quoting a further telegram from Superintendent 1 hackery, gmn» additional reasons why, in his judgment, the restrictions on the sale of Kickapoo lands should not be removed. Very respectfully, E. A. Hitchcock, Secretary. Eagle Pals, Tex., via Diaz, June It, 1906. George Outcelt, Muzfui?: To-day's paper reports tnat Senate accepted conference report on Indian bill. [seal.] Thackery, Superintendent. United States Customs Service, Port of Eagle Pass, Tex., June 15, 1906. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: I have been shown a copy of your letter of recent date to the honorable Sec- retary of the Interior," having reference to the Bentley- Kickapoo matter, and in which you refer in part to the connection of Mr. J. A. Bonnett, vice American consul, in said matter. In order that the fullest information may be had in this matter when it is taken up, I have the honor to make the following suggestions for your further consider- ation in the case: First, I would state that I have no definite knowledge of the report made by Supervisor Charles H. Dickson relative to the connection of Mr. Bonnett in the Bentley matter, but I do know that Mr. Bonnett has told various persons, to wit: R. W. Dowe, collector of customs this place; Russell Johnson, assistant cashier of the State National Bank, of Shawnee, Okla., and Doc Beaty, a saloon man of Oklahoma City, Okla., and others, that the report of Supervisor Dickson was false from begin- ning to end, or something to this effect. Mr. Bonnett has exerted an undue influence in this Bentley matter against both Mr. Dickson and myself, and it must follow that such influence was also against the best interests of the Interior Department that we represented . Prom the best informa- tion I can get Mr. Martin, the consul at this place, is not at fault in the matter. He has the confidence and good will of the people of this locality and is generally believed to be an honest and conscientious official. Mr. Bonnett, the vice consul, on the other hand, does not bear this general good reputation. That Mr. Bonnett has made improper statements, and thus done his part in creating a wrong impression in this locality and in Mexico, as to the position of the Interior Department in its actions relative to this Indian matter is evident. That he has likewise made improper state- ments about Mr. Dickson and myself, without knowing or even attempting to ascertain from disinterested persons or from anyone other than Mr. Bentley or his confederates the real facts or the truthfulness of the statements he made, is also evident. Whether or not Mr. Bonnett acted within his proper official capacity when he went to Muzquiz, Mexico, list year during the Dicks >n investigation and there interested himself in behalf of Mr. Bentley I do not know. But as an official of the United States Government, as was also Mr. Dickson, it seems to me that Mr. Bonnett might have taken the time to hive th'r jughly understood the position of the Interior Department before rendering the assistance he did render t} Mr. Bentley. In doing what he did he officially opposed the interests of the United States, which interests were entitled to his assistance as against the interests of a single individual, the action cf whom the United States questioned as to their being proper. It is generally known that, follow- ing this Dickson investigation, both Mr. Dickson and myself were sued by Mr. Bentley in the sum of $200,000. Some time after this, in January of this year, the plaintiff served notice of their intention to take depositions in the case at Eagle Pass, Tex., and at Muzquiz, Mexico. Myself and J. H. Woods (of Shawnee, Okla., attorney of Dickson and myself) appeared in person at the taking of depositions at both places above named. At Eagle Pass the depositions were taken before W. A. Bonnett (a son of J. A. Bonnett aforesaid), and among the witnesses examined at Eagle Pass was Mr. J. A. Bonnett, the vice consul, who appeared at the request of Mr. Bentley, and as one of his -witnesses. Later, when we went from Eagle Pass to Muzquiz, Mexico, to take further depositions in the case, it was arranged that the balance of the depositions should be taken befrre 1664 KICKAPOO INDIANS. J. A. Bonnett, vice consul, and I think that he (J. A. Bonnett) was appointed by the district judge of the third judicial district of Oklahoma, in some capacity, upon the request of plaintiff, to take the depositions in Mexico. At any rate, the depositions were taken before Mr. Bonnett at Muzquiz, and among other witnesses to appear for the plaintiff was the presidente of the Muzquiz municipality. When this witness was called Mr. Bonnett left the room where the depositions were being taken. I thought nothing of his leaving, as the taking of deposit!' >ns had been temporarily suspended. I had that day received a letter from Mr. Dickson inclosing a letter addressed to said presidente , with the request from Mr. Dickson that I present said letter to the presidente and ask him to appear as a witness for Mr. Dickson and myself. When the taking of depositions was suspended, as before stated, Mr. Woods and myself called at the office of the presidente to present Mr. Dickson's letter, this being after the plaintiff had announced the presidente as his next witness,- and as we entered the office of the presidente we found Mr. J. A. Bonnett and the presidente standing near together, where the presidente had evidently come from his office chair to greet Mr. Bonnett. The presidente was reading a letter that from all appearances had just been handed him by Mr. Bonnett. Mr. Woods, Dickson, and myself were the defendants in this case and as such defendants we had a right to seek sucrrevidence as would better their case; but, if Mr. Bonnett had given the presidente this letter in question in the in- terests of either plaintiff or defendant, he was doing a wrongful act, both as the person appointed to hear the evidence and as vice consul of the United States. The actions of Mr. Bonnett in this Bentley matter from the beginning to the present time tend to show that this letter was given to the presidente in the interests of Mr. Bentley. A few days ago Mr. Russell Johnson and Doc Beaty called at the office of the vice consul (J. A. Bonnett) at Ciudad Porfirio Diaz, Mexico, they having come here from Oklahoma for the purpose of buying a part of the Kickapoo land in Oklahoma in the event that the restrictions were removed from said lands. These men called upon Mr. Bonnett (having heard that he was going to Muzquiz for the purpose of taking acknowledgments to Indian deeds) to ascertain if he would go to Muzquiz to take acknowledgments for all persons who were there to buy land or of any particular per- son or firm. From the question they first asked Mr. Bonnett he seemed to infer that they were friendly to Mr. Bentley, and stated that it would be impossible for him to go to Muzquiz for the reason that the consul, Mr. Martin, had gone away sick and left him in charge of the office. Mr. Bonnett stated, however, as these men inform me, that if Mr. Martin returned before the work at Muzquiz was done he (Bonnett) would go to Muzquiz. Mr. Bonnett stated that he had just written Mr. Bentley a letter at Muzquiz, stating that he would probably not be able to go to Muzquiz, for the reason above stated, and referring him (Bentley) to a consular agent named M. Q. Marsh, of Sierra Mojada, Mexico, whom he advised Mr. Bentley to see and make arrangements for him to go to Muzquiz to take the acknowledgements to the Indian deeds. He (Mr. Bonnett) read parts of his letter to "Mr. Bentley to Johnson and Beaty. I suggest that copies of Mr. Bonnett's correspondence with Mr. Bentley should be asked for, as well as the correspondence of Mr. Bentley to Mr. Bonnett or his office. I do not want to appear unduly active in this matter, but will state that, for my own protection, as well as the protection of Mr. Dickson, I will make affidavits to confirm what I have above said. The situation at Muzquiz is unchanged from what has heretofore been reported, ex- cepting that I am informed that the other parties at Muzquiz (for the purpose of buy- ing land) have for the time being secured the good will and assistance of the Mexican officials, thus turning Bentley down by installing into practice the methods originated and started by Mr. Bentley. Just how these arrangements are made or what is done to bring them about is a question that Mr. Bentley and the other Oklahoma citizens, as well as the Mexican officials, should be required to answer. It is evident that no good will come to the Indians as the result of such arrangements. Now that it seems assured that the re- strictions are to be removed from these Indians' land in the United States, it seems im- portant to me that our Government should explicitly relieve itself of any further responsibility as to any of these Indians and see to it that Mexico now understands that if she receives these Indians now she is not to expect nor ask the United States to take them back or care for them in the event that she (Mexico) later finds them un- desirable. I have the honor to be, yours, very respectfully, Frank A. Thackery, Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1665 [Telegram.] Eagle Pass, Tex., June 21, 1906. Commissioner Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.: Will leave here for Muzquiz, Coahuila, Mexico, next Saturday evening at 4 o'clock Please wire me of final action on Indian bill, as many of the Indians wish to return to Shawnee immediately if bill does not pass, and they want me to arrange for their transportation. It will be a great mistake if these Indians are permitted to sell their lands to anybody under the pending Indian bill. Thackery, Superintendent. Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, ,,.„_, Eagle Pass, Tex., June 23, 1906. Ma], C. F. Larrabee, Indian Office, Washington, D. C. My Dear Sir: News reached here yesterday that President Roosevelt had signed the Indian bill, with the amendment removing the restrictions from the nonresident Kickapoo and other Indian lands. Mr. Bentley's success in getting this legislation gives him a much increased influ- ence over the Indians interested in the matter. Assistant United States Attorney Outcelt is investigating, as well as the citizens of Mexico who are most familiar with his dealings with these Indians. Thus it will be difficult and probably impossible to get testimony that would justify legal actions in behalf of the Indians direct. I mean that, as an instance, it would not seem advisable to start any action for the recovery of an allotment for an Indian unless the Indian himself be enough interested in the case to start and assist in the action. While the Indians directly interested in the "seven-allotment" legislation of last year freely admit that they received but very little for their land and did not know that they were selling .the same, yet they do not want to be known in an action looking to the recovery of their land. It is evident that they have been led to believe that whatever the United States does in the matter would look to their forcible return (if necessary) to the United States to be followed by the stealing (as they state) of their children to be placed in school. In several instances and upon their urgent request I have started suits in the proper court in their behalf for the recovery of money from Mr. Bentley. In each of such cases they have later appeared at court and asked that the suits be dismissed. No doubt that Mr. Bentley had pursuaded them to dismiss the cases, though they had faithfully promised that if I would start the actions they would not have the cases dismissed unless Mr. Bentley made full settlement with them, which they afterwards state he did not do. Up to date I have not used half of the $500 authorized in my assisting Mr. Outcelt in this investigation. I do not know what plans, if any, the commissioner may have as to further steps relative to the removal of United States Indians into Mexico, but I do know that the schemes for this purpose are well and deeply laid, and that if any steps are taken it should be as early as will be consistent. The connection (appa- rently unmistakable) of certain Mexican officials with this deal should receive notice. If it is intended to go into this matter of moving Indians to Mexico further I would suggest that my authority to assist Mr. Outcelt be so modified as to permit me to go over this matter with you personally. I have plenty of work to do at Shawnee and do not wish to go to Washington unless I can be of assistance in this matter. Very respectfully, Frank A. Thackery, - Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent. [Telegram.] United States Indian Agency, Shawnee, Okla., July 31, 1906. Lewis C. Grimes, Harrah, Okla.: I am informed that plans are being perfected to take more Kickapoo Indians to Mexico. I have been apponted legal guardian of the adult Kickapoo Indians in 1666 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Oklahoma by the proper court, and as such guardian give warning to all parties that these Indians be not removed. Frank A. Thackery, Acting United States Indian Agent. Department op the Interior, United States Indian Service, United States Indian Agency, Shawnee, Okla., August 1, 1906. The Commissioner op Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: I have the honor to advise you that on the 23d day of July, 1906, the probate judge of this (Pottawatomie) county appointed me legal guardian of 44 adult mem- bers of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians of this agency who are now residing here and do not want to go to Mexico. Applications are now pending in Oklahoma County for 4 more similar appointments and in Lincoln County for 10 similar appointments. These appointments were made upon my own application after having consulted and secured the assistance of the United States attorney for this district. All sorts of schemes were being prefected for the removal of these Indians to Mexico in order that the purchase of their allotments at this agency might be consummated under the provisions of the act of Congress approved June 21, 1906. The Indians had repeatedly appealed to me to protect them, urging that they had no desire to remove to Mexico and wished to remain here on the land set aside for them by the United States Government. They stated that they did not understand neither the language, ways, nor laws of their white neighbors and that under the provision of the last Indian bill they were convinced that the Kickapoos now remaining here would be enticed off to Mexico, few at a time, until they would be left "paupers in the road" with no place to call a home. . After listening to a number of their councils and being convinced that they were in great earnest in their desire to remain on their Oklahoma allotments, I suggested to them that under existing conditions, and taking into consideration the fact that they were ignorant of the language, ways, and laws of the white men, that they were full-blood Indians and did not know the value of their Oklahoma lands, it might be that the probate judge would declare them incompetents. Asst. United States Attor- ney Mc Knight was sent here to arrange the matter, and after counseling with the Indians in his presence the petitions were filed. The United States attorney's office was held temporarily by Hon. John W. Scothorn. When the probate judge of this county understood the conditions, he gave the move his full assistance and appointed me in every case applied for. If the plan meets with your approval, I would be pleased if you would address a letter to Mr. Scothorn and Judge Maben (the former at Guthrie, Okla., and the latter at Tecumseh, Okla.), expressing your appreciation of their services in behalf of the Indians. I assure you that the step was taken solely as a matter of protection to the helpless and ignorant Indians, who otherwise would soon have been led off to Mexico under false promises of all kinds and their lands taken from them for a mere pittance. The expense of these appointments amounted to $170.50 in Pottawatomie County, which amount I have paid from my personal funds. These Indians are poor and have no means of reimbursing me at this time. There was no time to refer the matter to your office before acting, as I was not aware of the full situation here until my return from Mexico, where I had been sent to assist in an investigation, and had I waited to refer the matter before acting it would have been too late to have received my appointment prior to the removal of some of the Indians.' Kindly advise me if you have any fund from which I could be reimbursed the actual cost of these appointments. The cost was reduced to the lowest amount possible, the judge allowing us to appoint the members of any one family all on one applica- tion, thus making the cost of the family the same that it would ordinarily be in a single case. There were 31 cases in this county, at a cost of $5.50 each. I inclose herewith my receipt for the same, which please return with your reply Very respectfully, Frank A. Thackery, Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1667 List of cases where Frank A. Thackery was appointed guardian of incompetent Kickapoo Indians, showing the date of application for appointment and date of appointment. POTTAWATOMIE COUNTY. Peah-twyh-tuck We-sko-peth-o-que Ah-ko-the Wah-ne-ma-quah Mah-she-nah Mush-sho-qua-to-quah Wah-tah-tah Kah-ka-nah-che-kah Kah-ke-ne-peah Pe-nee-she Men-ah-pe Medk-ke-kah Ah-na-tho-the Shoe-nah-quah Ma-ko-the-wuah Ma-nah-the-quah-qua-ah . Wah-sha-ko-skuch Ah-na-tho-huck Mc-na-mesh Shah-kah-tah Much-e-nen-e Mut-twa-ah-quah Me-nali-quah Mesh-ah-quot Pah-ke-che-moke Ki-yah-squah Wah-nah-ke-tha Py-o-tho Pe-ke-to-no-quah Wah-pah-pen-neah Ke-ke-e-quah Quen-nep-pe-that Wah-que-tah-no-quah Kish-ke-ton Ko-ke-kah-huck Pen-me-pah-hone-wah. . . Ne-pah-fiah Pen-e-thah-ah-quah Nah-she-pe-eth Wah-pe-pah Wah-ko-nah-ka-ka Kish-ke-ton-o-quah Mah-mah-tome-ah She-pah-tho-quah Petition for appointment filed. July 13, 1906 do ....do ....do ....do ....do ....do ....do ....do ....do ....do ....do do ....do ....do ....do do ....do do do July 16, 1906 do do July 16,1906 do do do do do do do do do do do do do do * do do July 18,1906 do July 13,1906 July 16,1906 Appointment made. July 23, 1906 Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. July 23,1906 Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. LINCOLN COUNTY. Peah-mow-ske Wah-pah-nah-pe-quah . Pah-nah-ka-quah Ta-pah-she Ah-kah-tah-she-ma Pen-ne-ah-kah-qua Mi-e-nah Ke-ma-si-quah Pem-ma-ho-ke Ma-ko-the-quah Aug. 13,1906 do do do do do do do do do Oct. 4, Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. 1906 United States Indian Agency, Shawnee, Okla., December 17, 1906. Hon. John Embry, United States Attorney, Guthrie, Okla. Dear Sir: I have your telegram of the 15th instant, which reads as follows: "Cause everyone inducing Kickapoos to leave to be arrested, under latter part section 2113, Revised Statutes. Make separate arrest for each Indian." Prior to the receipt of this telegram I had talked the matter of preventing these Indians from being taken away by prospective purchasers of their allotments over with United States Commissioner W. R. Asher, and also with Probate Judge Maben. 1668 KICKAPOO INDIANS. The latter advised me that, if I would present an action in proper form asking for an injunction, he would grant same. I immediately employed the law firm of Pendleton, Abernathy & Howell to prepare the petition, and I inclose herewith copies of both the petition and the injuction order, which are self-explanatory. _ Immediately upon receipt of your telegram I went before United States Commis- sioner W. R. Asher, at Tecums'eh, Okla., and made complaints against Martin J. Bentley, L. C. Grimes, R. C. Conine, and George Kishketon. Warrants for the arrest of these parties were issued without delay by Mr. Asher and were at once turned over to Deputy United States Marshal J. P. Jones, who just advises me by phone that they have been served in each case, excepting that of R. C. Conine. In the case of Mr. Bentlev he is charged with alienating, etc., Ne pah had, Mexican Kickapoo allottee No. 244, who was allotted the N. J of the SB. \ of sec. 12,T. 10 N., R. 3 E. On July 26, 1906, the probate court of Pottawatomie County, this Territory, declared her incompetent and appointed me as the legal guardian of her person and. estate. Subsequently (about one month ago) she left this county and Territory for Mexico and, upon her arrival at Eagle Pass, Tex., is purported to have executed a deed in favor of one Ida B. Bentley and W. W. Ives, conveying the above-described allotment to them for a purported consideration of $2,000. This deed is dated November 20, 1906, and is purported to have been acknowledged before A. W. Bonnett, a notary public of Maver- ick County, Tex. I have been told by the Indians that Mr. Bentley purchased the ticket for 'this woman and accompanied her to Mexico just prior to the date of the aforesaid deed. In the case of R. C. Conine, he is charged with alienating, etc., one Py-a-tho, Mexican Kickapoo allottee No. 232, who was also, on July 23, 1906, declared an incompetent by the probate court of Pottawatomie County, this Territory, and I was likewise appointed as the legal guardian of her person and estate. Her allot- ment is the W. i of the SE. \ of sec. 10, T. 10 N., R. 3 E., and is easily worth $3,000. I think it can be established that she accompanied R. C. Conine from this vicinity to Eagle Pass, Tex., where she is purported to have executed a deed in favor of said R. C. Conine on November 24, 1906, for a consideration of $1,000. The records show that this deed was acknowledged before T. J. Murray, of Maverick County, Tex. The deed is also signed by An-nah-no-tha, purported to be the husband of said Py-a- tho. It is reported to me that Mr. Conine had this woman and man lawfully married while in Eagle Pass, Tex., but that neither the man nor the woman knew nor under- stood what was taking place during the marriage ceremony. The husband has always been a resident of Mexico, and the marriage is believed to have been arranged for by Mr. Conine for the purpose of establishing, as he thought, the legal residence of said Py-a-tho in the Republic of Mexico in order that she might convey her land under the act of June 21, 1906. This woman Py-a-tho also has an interest in the allotment of her deceased father, Mah-sko-ta-a-tah, Mexican Kickapoo allottee No. 231, who was allotted the E. \ of the SE. \ of sec. 10, T. 10 N., R. 3 E. The heirs of said allottee had petitioned me to advertise said allotment for sale in accordance with the rules of the Interior Department. Their petition had been granted, and the bids for this allotment were opened by me en December 1, 1906. at which time the highest bid received was that of A. J. Perkins, of Shawnee, Okla., at $3,330. Mr. Conine (as shown by the records at the register of deeds in this county) has taken a deed for a one-third interest in said land from said Py-a-tho and her purported husband for a consideration of $300. This deed is dated November 12, 1906, and is acknowledged before T. J. Murray, of Maverick County, Tex. It would appear that in the taking of this latter deed by Mr. Conine it may have been his object to discourage anybody bidding upon this allotment as advertised through this office. I am of the opinion, however, with reference to the connection of Mr. Conine in this whole matter, that he is acting with and upon the advice of L. C. Grimes. It will be remembered that this Mr. Conine is the same man who was employed as a Spanish interpreter by Assistant United States Attorney George A. Outcelt while making his recent investigation of Kickapoo matters in Mexico. He has since been actively connected with prospective buyers of the Kickapoo allot- ments under the act of June 21, 1906. Mr. Grimes and George Kishketon are charged with having alienated, etc., Men- ah-pe, who has not as yet left this county for Mexico. In this case, I would state that three Kickapoo Indians called at my residence very soon after daylight on last Sunday morning (the 16th instant) and advised me that the above-named woman, Men-ah-pe, had been forcibly taken from camp by George Kishketon and Mack John- son, two Kickapoo Indians (both of whom are believed to be employed by and work- ing under the direction of L. C. Grimes). Said Men-ah-pe is purported to have been held under lock and key at some rooming house in Shawnee during the greater part of Saturday night (the 15th instant), and there is but little doubt but that the intention KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1669 £^li°„ ta ^ e k?1 ' *° Mexico on the morning train of the Missouri, Kansas & Texas Railway, leaving Shawnee at 9 o'clock a. m. The warrant for the arrest of Mr. Grimes having been served late Saturday evening, this woman was released and returned to camp sometime prior to daylight of Sunday morning In connection with this whole matter, please advise me if, in your opinion, an action could be sustained under article 3— Kidnapping-of the session laws of Okla- homa, 1901, which reads as follows: 'JEvery person who, without lawful authority, forcibly seizes and confines another, or inveigles or kidnaps another, for the purpose of extorting any money, property, or thing oi value or advantage from the person so seized, confined, inveigled, or kid- n ^ P i?? ' ° r a - ny otller P erson > sha11 be g ullt Y of a felony, and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the Territorial prison not less than ten years." As stated to you over the phone, these Indians do not want to go to Mexico and will not go unless they are inveigled and scared into it. They are simple-minded and have no self-reliance, and have but little, if anv, conception of the value of their property. I shall be pleased to take any further action you may suggest in this matter and to render any possible assistance in an earnest effort to prevent these Indians from being fleeced of their property. Unless some decisive action is taken at this time in their behalf these Indians will soon be paupers upon this community, dependent upon the citizens thereof. Very respectfully, F. A. Thackbry, Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent. [Telegram.] Oklahoma City, Okla., January SI, 1907. Commissioner Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C: Press dispatches report provision in Indian bill directing Attorney General to inves- tigate Kickapoo land sales in Mexico. If that provision is finally adopted it should be made to cover all purported sales by Kickapoos under act of June 21 last. All sales to Bentley are said to have been made in United States, while sales to other parties were mostly made in Mexico. Thackery, Superintendent, Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, U. S. Indian Aoency, Shawnee, OJcla., February 1, 1907. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: Confirming my telegram of last evening sent you from Oklahoma City, Okla.; which read as follows: "Press dispatches report provision in Indian bill directing Attorney General to investigate Kickapoo land sales in Mexico. If this provision is finally adopted it should be made to cover all purported sales by Kickapoos under act of June 21 last. All sales to Bentley are said to have been made in United States, while sales to other parties were mostly made in Mexico. (Signed) Thackery, Superintendent." I now have the honor to inclose herewith pages 1 and 2 of the Daily Oklahoman of January 31, 1907, in which will be found press dispatch referred to, wherein the following statement appears: "The Attorney General of the United States is directed to investigate conveyances purporting to have been executed in Mexico of lands in Oklahoma and found to have been procured by fraud, to begin proceedings to have them set aside. He is also instructed to prosecute parties to the frauds, if any were committed." I am very glad indeed to have this whole matter investigated and hope that the investigation, if made, will be placed in thoroughly reliable hands and that it will be thorough. My reason for telegraphing you as above was that, in case the word- ing of the provision above quoted is correctly given in the newspaper dispatches it would seem not to require an investigation of the purported purchases by Mr. Martin J. Bentley and his friends, most of which were made in the United States at Eagle Pass, Tex. 35601— pt 13—14 S 1670 KIOKAPOO INDIANS. I also inclose a press dispatch clipping from a Kansas City daily paper of January 28, 1907, in which the following sentence appears in the last clause thereof: "It is stated that these disclosures involve certain officials of the Interior Depart- ment." I will be glad to have my whole' connection with this matter thoroughly gone into. However, if any hearings are to be given in the matter before the Senate or House Committee on Indian Affairs, in which I am officially involved, I deem it only a matter of justice that I should be ordered before the committee. Very respectfully, Frank A. Thackery, Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent. The Chairman. Now, did you advise that that legislation be not passed, or that the bill be vetoed % Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; because I believed, from what I had seen there before the bill became a law, that the Indians would suffer no matter who controlled them. The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with the framing of that legislation? Mr. Thackery. None whatever. The Chairman. Did you approve of it? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The Chairman. Why? Mr. Thackery. Because the interests of the Indians were not properly safeguarded. The Chairman. It appears that the object of the act was to remove the restrictions so that the Indians might dispose of their property at will. The court afterwards held that that could not be done without the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, that the lan- guage of the act was insufficient to permit it to be done without approval. Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; that is right. The Chairman. Were you at Eagle Pass when Mr. Outcelt was down in Muzquiz? Mr. Thackery. Yes; part of the time. The Chairman. Did you know of his being there? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I went to Mexico with him. The Chairman. Do you know how he came to go there? Mr. Thackery. He went, by direction of the Attorney General, to get further evidence as to those seven allotments — the deeds to the seven allotments. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not he was there while these Indians were alleged to have been coerced into signing deeds? Mr. Thackery. He was there. The Chairman. Did you learn of his presence there and his alleged participation in those transactions at that time ? ' Mr. Thackery. I learned of it when the subcommittee made the investigation. The Chairman. But not before ? Mr. Thackery. I knew that Bentley had claimed that he had assisted these other fellows, but I never knew the details of it until the matter was under investigation by the subcommittee. The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Field ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know what his relationship has been to Mr. Bentley, whether that of an intimate or otherwise? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1671 Mr. Thackeey. I should sav that it has been very intimate. The Chairman. For how long? Mr. Thackery. Ever since I have known them; since 1901. The Chairman. Have they had many transactions together ? ■ Mr. Thackery. Well, whenever any Kickapoo business has come up of any importance they have always showed up together there in Oklahoma. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Field is the authorized attorney for the Kickpaoo Indians, or any of them? Mr. Thackery. There is some of the faction in Mexico, I have heard say, that at one time asked him to represent them, but he has never been so recognized by the authorities of the Government. I think if he is their attorney it would be necessary for them to have an approved contract. The Chairman. He did not claim — if I am correctly informed — to represent the Oklahoma Kickapoos, that branch of them that stayed with you, did he, as attorney ? Mr. Thackery. I do not know. My understanding has been that he claimed to have some sort of agreement, verbal or otherwise, to represent all of the Mexican Kickapoos. The Chairman. Do you know of the International Trust Co., of Delaware ? Mr. Thackery. I have seen some of the papers of that organization. The Chairman. Do vou know Mr. John W. Field, the son of W. S. Field ? Mr. Thackery. I do not think I have ever met him. The Chairman. Were you in Shawnee at the time that corporation was organized to do business in Oklahoma City ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know anything about the extent of its operation or business ? Mr. Thackery. I do not. I know only what the evidence shows here, that they received $17,500. The Chairman. Mr. Field stated that the company was organized at his suggestion, for two purposes, if I remember correctly. The first was to administer on estates in Oklahoma and the second was to receive this $17,000, being the balance of the trust fund, or approxi- mately the balance, in the hands of Mr. Bentley at the time Mr. Bentley resigned as trustee. Do you know O. A. Mitscher ? "M.y Thackery Ygs sit. The Chairman. He was interested in that International Trust Co.? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; one of the officers. The Chairman. He is treasurer of the Mexican Kickapoo Com- munity Co. ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Gostin ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. . The Chairman. What was his relationship to the International Trust Co., and what are his connections with the Mexican Kickapoo < Sfr n SoKBBT. I do not know whether he was mentioned in the International Trust Co. or not. Not that I know of. But he is, 1 1672 KICKAPOO INDIANS. think, secretary of the Kickapoo Trust Co. at Douglas — the Com- munity Co., or whatever they call it. The Chairman. The Mexican Kickapoo Community (Inc.). Who is the president of that corporation ? Mr. Bentley. Okemah, I understand. The Chairman. Do you know? Mr. Thackery. Okemah. We have a certified copy of their The Chairman. Their articles of incorporation ? Will you let me see it ? Have you a list of the stockholders ? Mr. Thackery (handing papers to the chairman). I have not looked it over carefully, but I think it shows the stockholders. The Chairman. When did you get that ? Mr. Thackery. Gen. Scott got the one I have when he was in Douglas. The Chairman. Is it authenticated ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Kepresentative Stephens. Where is it incorporated ? Mr. Thackery. In Douglas, Ariz. The Chairman. I was not talking about the Mexican Kickapoo Community Co.; I referred to the International Trust Co. Mr. Thackery. No; I have not a copy of that. I have seen a copy of it, but it was three or four years ago. The Chairman. Do you have any interest in the Mexican Kickapoo Community Co. ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; none whatever. The Chairman. Or are you in any wise connected with its organi- zation or management ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Senator Lane. Didn't you keep a book of accounts showing your guardianship expenditures ? Mr. Thackery. That was not kept officially. Senator Lane. I know, but didn't you keep a blotter or ledger account ? Mr. Thackery. It is kept in a sort of ledger; yes, sir. Senator Lane. It does not show here. Mr. Thackery. No; that is the trustee account only. Senator Lane. It is marked on the outside, "Trustee and guar- dian. Department of the Interior. U. S. Indian Service." Mr. Thackery. It does not contain the guardian accounts. Senator Lane. I know it does not. How much money did you take over altogether as guardian ? Mr. Thackery. I could not tell you without figuring it up. Senator Lane. Haven't you some idea ? Mr. Thackery. $100,000 — I could run through there and do it. Senator Lane. I thought perhaps you would know. When was this $101,000 turned over to you as trustee? Mr. Thackery. It was some time the latter part of May, 1908. Senator Lane. I notice that quite a number of these accounts begin in July, 1908, and they close in November, December, and October, in the same year, running only three or four months. Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; that is no doubt true with some of them. Senator Lane. Now, I notice in all of them that there are blank charges without any explanation whatever of what the money is expended for. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1673 Mr. Thackery. That is true. The check, as I explained, was drawn to the Indian himself, payable to his or her order, and they indorsed the check. I did that to relieve myself of responsibility as trustee. Senator Lane. What attracted my attention to it was your state- ment that these people were incompetent. Mr. Thackery. Well, I have also explained that I did whatever I could do, with what little authority I had under that law, to guide the use of the money for proper purposes. Senator Lane. It does not show here what it was expended for, whether they were proper or improper; not one single indication of what the money was expended for. Did you keep no accounting of that? For instance, if he bought a horse, would you not indorse on the check "To pay for a horse," and then make an entry to that effect in your book ? Mr. Thackery. I think I made some notation on many of the stubs of the checks. Senator Lane. Why did you not make it in the book here so it would show without looking over all the individual checks ? Mr. Thackery. You must remember that this work was additional to the regular office work which I had, without any additional clerical force. Senator Lane. I know, but you accepted the responsibility ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I did. Senator Lane. You took the money and accepted the responsi- bility to render a full and complete account ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Without bond ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And, consequently, your accounts should be checked very closely and accurately for that reason. Now, there is not one statement here or explanation that I find anywhere of what this money has gone for. Mr. Thackery. I can furnish you with a statement of a very large part of it. Senator Lane. You may, yes; but this is all you are presenting here now ? Mr. Thackery. That is all I am presenting. That book shows the date, the number, and the amount of every check I paid. I have the canceled checks, which may give a little additional information, and 1 can produce the stubs, upon some of which at least are notations as to the purpose for which the check was drawn. Senator To wnsend. Who drew the money on the checks? Mr. Thackery. The Indians. Senator Townsend. Did you spend the money for the things the Indians bought? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; they bought it themselves. I gave them the money for certain purposes. In most cases I had some idea of what they were going to use the money for. They would come and say, as I have explained, that they would want to buy a team of horses. I would advise them to go and bring the team there with the man who wanted to sell it. We would look it over, and if we made an agreement, I would give the Indian a check. 1674 KIOKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Townsend. Did you follow the horses after that to know what he did with them ? Mr. Thackery. As nearly as we could; yes. Senator Lane. Here is an account, the account of Wah-nah-ke- tha, page 24. "By check to self," running from July 9 to November 14 — the money is all gone. Senator Townsend. Whom do youmean by "self"? "Were the checks drawn to yourself or to the Indians ? Mr. Thackery. To the Indian in every case. Senator Lane. He gave the Indian the check. And in 4 months here an incompetent has used up $1,198, without a scratch of the pen to show what it was spent for. (The witness here made a further informal explanation of certain entries.) Senator Lane. Now, this book was submitted to whom? Mr. Thackery. It has not been submitted to anybody. Senator Lane. Has anybody checked this over? Mr. Thackery. Nobody but myself ? Senator Lane. The account has been accepted by somebody. You have not made any report on it ? Mr. Thackery. Never; except the cases where I am guardian and the court has gone over it. Senator Lane. These expenditures in here have never been checked by anyone ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; except in the guardianship cases. Senator Lane. Nor have they been approved ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Senator Lane. These are not guardianship cases in here? Mr. Thackery. Some of them. Senator Lane. I thought you said the guardianship cases were not in here. Mr. Thackery. They are not; but what I am saying is that in every case where I was guardian I transcribed that into my guardian account . Senator Lane. Nor is there any memorandum anywhere of what the money has been expended for. Mr. Thackery. Well, I say I have a memorandum — I can prepare one. Senator Lane. But there is not in this book in which you kept the account of the trust fund, and the other you will have to hunt here, there, and yonder for. Mr. Thackery. Some of it is on the check stubs. Senator Lane. And some of it is not. How much of it is on the check stubs ? Mr. Thackery. I could not tell you without checking it through. Senator Lane. Half of it ? Mr. Thackery. I think more than that. Senator Lane. And was that your method of keeping the accounts of this $101,000 fund — on the stubs of your checks? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; my method was to take it up officially under a bond and account for it. Senator Lane. But you did not give a bond. Mr. Thackery. I did not, because the act was so worded as to make it impossible. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1675 Senator Lane. And you have made no accounting for it, and all y0 TU- tv 1S y0Ur notations ma ^e upon some checks ? Mr. rHACKERY. No, sir; I have every canceled check with the indorsement of the Indian to whom the money was paid on the back of the check. Senator Lane. I never saw accounts kept that way before. Representative Stephens. About how many guardianship cases did you have in the courts ? Mr. Thackery. Of that 82 there were probably 60. Representative Stephens. That would leave 22 then that got the money outside of the probate courts ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Now, when you went to the probate court did they require you to give bond there? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. And then when you made your final settlement did you get a release from the court ? Mr. Thackery. The court approved the accounts when I made my final report. It is, of course, all in the probate court record. Representative Stephens. Then there are no cases open in the probate courts between yourself as guardian and your wards ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; they are all closed. Senator Lane. Didn't you know that when you kept your accounts that way without a more careful system of bookkeeping you made yourself liable to be accused of having misused these funds, and that for your own protection it was necessary for you to keep a more complete set of books ? Mr. Thackery. As I have said, Senator, I have practically every check that I issued bearing the indorsement of the Indian; and if there is any question about what those checks were for it is very easy to take the check and trace it down, and if there is anything wrong to locate it by means of these checks — the check itself, when you make a payment, is the best possible evidence. Senator Townsend. You never accounted, as I understood you, to the Government for that money ? You gave a receipt for $101 ,000 ? Mr. Thackery. I did not give any receipt, excepting my indorse- ment on the warrant. Senator Townsend. Then you were to spend this as directed by those 82 Indians ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Did you ever make an accounting to them ? To the 82 Indians ? Mr. Thackery. I have gone over these separate accounts with the different Indians. Senator Townsend. But never with the tribe in council? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Senator Townsend. So that, while you were directed to spend this as those 82 Indians authorized you to do, you never made any accounting to them ? Mr. Thackery. They met in council and authorized me to divide it pro rata, by the council proceedings which will you find in the back. I did divide it up according to that council proceeding. Then I did account to each individual Indian for the amount so divided up. 1676 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Townsend. Has there been any complaint of any one of those Indians that you did not settle properly? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Senator Lane. Did you make a final statement with each Indian when you quit? Mr. Thackery. No, not in writing. We went over all the accounts. Senator Lane. You did not take a release from him ? Mr. Thackery. His check is a receipt. Senator Lane. I mean a final closing up % Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have no receipt excepting his check. Senator Lane. You did not submit him a final statement ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Was any one of these checks ever questioned. That is, did any one of the Indians deny that he had received money from you ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; in no case at all. There is one case where there was one of the men died, one of the persons receiving part of this money. His wife afterwards came in to see me and wanted to know if he had received all of the money before he died. That is the only case where there was any question raised at all. And when she went over the account and it was explained to her she was, as far as I know, entirely satisfied. Senator Townsend. That leads to the question I was just going to ask. Did any of these Indians die — you said there was one. Did more than one die before the settlement was made? Mr. Thackery. I do not think any of them died before the settle- ment was made. I do not remember the names, but there are several of them that have died since then. There is one case there — the case of John Snake. I paid out the small end of his account after he was too sick to sign a check. Senator Townsend. Now, I wish you would explain what you meant by saying that you were having trouble over the Mexican situation during the time you were agent at Shawnee ? Did I under- stand you to say that? Mr. Thackery. I said, in answer to a question by the Chairman as to the farming activities of these Indians, that during all of the agitation growing out of these various acts of Congress they were in a state of turmoil, and they did not settle down and farm as well as they might have done had that agitation not existed. Senator Townsend. What agitation do you refer to % Mr. Thackery. Well, there was this agitation about their leaving Oklahoma and going to Mexico. They were unsettled; they were going back and forth, spending money for railroad tickets and travel- ing expenses, which they might otherwise spent in improving a home had this agitation not existed. Senator Townsend. You have been to Mexico several times % Mr. Thackery. Yes, ^ir. Senator Townsend. How does the condition of the Kickapoo Indians in Mexico compare with the condition of those in Oklahoma? Mr. Thackery. I think the Oklahoma Indians are in better finan- cial condition and no worse physical condition. Senator Townsend. Are the Oklahoma Indians contented? Mr. Thackery. Apparently; yes. Since this matter has settled down the last three or four years, they have been farming better than ever before. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1677 Senator Townsend. Were you active in trying to prevent their going into Mexico ? ' r Mr. Thackeky. I advised them not to go. I told them when they pressed the question that under any law I knew of they had a right to go if they wanted to, but I thought it was the wrong method and advised them to stop. Senator Townsend. Did they have confidence in your advice « Mr. Thackeky. They did finally and thev have now. They did not the first two or three years after I took 'charge at Shawnee Senator Townsend. You testified fully before the whole Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, did you not ? Mr. Thackeky. It is bard to say what you would call fully on a matter which has lasted some 12 or 15 yeais. It would take two or three weeks to tell it all. Senator Townsend. Were you in Mexico the time this special senatorial committee visited there ? Mr. Thackeky. No, sir; I did not see anything of the committee until they came to Shawnee. They were there two days, I guess. Senator Townsend. Who were there ? Mr. Thackeky. Senator Curtis, Senator La Follette, Mr. Field, Mr. Bentley, and Mr. Hannan. Senator Townsend. Who is that ? Mr. Thackeky. Senator La Follette's secretaiy. Then there were two or three stenographers. Mr. Gait was one "of them, and a Mr. Northrup with Senator Teller, I believe. There might have been one or two others. Senator Townsend. Did you know that there were some of these "land sharks," as some have called them, down in Mexico trying to get deeds for the Oklahoma property from the Mexican Kickapoos ? Mr. Thackeky. In 1906 ? Senator Townsend. At any time. Mr. Thackeky. Yes, sir; I knew they were there in 1906. Senator Townsend. Do you say now that it was your understand- ing that they were there to defraud the Indians out of their land ? Mr. Thackeky. Well, of course, I believed at that time that the Indians were going to get very much the worst of the deal. Under that act they were going to buy the land as cheaply as they could get it. I did not know at that time that they were going to resort to the measures which it finally appeared they did resort to, but I felt sure from what I had seen the few days I was there that the Indian would come up minus any land or any money. And I laid that matter fully before the department in many telegrams and letters. Senator Townsend. You thought it was a sort of strife between Bentley, Field & Co. on one side and the other fellows on the other side, to get the Indians' land ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. I did not think the Indians would have proper treatment at the hands of either faction. Senator Townsend. And you reported these things to the depart- ment? Mr. Thackeky. I did. And immediately following the passage of that act of 1906 I returned to Oklahoma and took these Indians, as I have stated, before the court. The court declared them incom- petent, and I was appointed their guardian to prevent their being 1678 KICKAPOO INDIANS. removed to Mexico where the deeds would be taken on their land as well as those then in Mexico. Senator Townsend. Are you satisfied that Bentley and those people did actually defraud the Indians who did go to Mexico out of any of their property ? Mr. Thackery. There is no question in my mind about their de- frauding them out of the funds which they have held. I do not think it is even properly accounted for. Senator Townsend. Do you have any specific instance in mind that leads you to make that statement? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; there are several items in that account that Senator Robinson examined Mr. Bentley on the other evening. Senator Townsend (handing a paper to the witness). Here they are. I think those are copies of his account. Mr. Bentley. If the Senator will permit me, that is not my account at all. That is simply various items made up and submitted to the Senate committee, asking reimbursement. My account is a totally different instrument from that. That is my expenditures and disbursements. Senator Townsend. Have you your account? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Just hand him that. Mr. Bentley. I was testifying in relation to those items, it is true, but that is not my account rendered of the Kickapoo money. Mr. Thackery. This is sworn to. Mr. Bentley (exhibiting a paper). This is my account. Senator Townsend. What is that sworn statement that you tes- tified about the other night? Mr. Bentley. That is the sums that I disbursed in the protection of myself and the Indians during the time we were being interfered with and being persecuted and prosecuted in Mexico and elsewhere. Senator Townsend. Very well. Mr. Thackery, do you know anything about those items that he swore to that leads you to make the statement that a proper accounting was not made? Mr. Thackery. Well, in that connection, I will say that the first item, various expenses, the total of which is $475, being the alleged expenses growing out of the attachment against Pah-ko-tah, the Kickapoo Indian — I would ask permission to get a certified copy of their court record in Oklahoma in connection with that case, and submit it to the committee to compare with this account. I have every reason to believe that no such amount was expended. Mr. Bentley. If you will let me interrupt you Mr. Thackery. The next item is, "Expenses caused by various indictments of myself and John Williams." That is the same case, and amounts to an additional $2,825. The court records in those cases will show everything, I think, unless it would be the attorney's fees. I would like to get an authenticated transcript of the court record in those eases and submit it to the committee for comparison. Mr. Bentley. Mr. Thackerey, please let me interrupt. Do you mean to say that the court record would show the number of witnesses I brought? These witnesses were in Mexico. They did not sub- poena my witnesses. There is no record to show how many witnesses I brought, or anything about it. It only says what the United States did. I was the defendant in all those cases. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1679 t>,,w7!£ CKEBT ; * trled ' ¥*• Bellfcle ^' When y° u were testifying to Svptnrfl/r t0 " am \ th ? Y ltnesses " The fact is herc that the Government brought most of those witnesses. at any W TLEY ' lh6 Government never brought any of my witnesses tW^TST This t W M J mean b ^ that - J was Present at the trial, and I know what Indians testified Mr. Bentley. There never was any trial in the Pah-ko-tah case. We kept coming, term after term of court. Had we not been there they would have forfeited our bond, and when were there ready for trial they would not try us. Mr. Thackery. There are a lot of cases here where there was a tnal and where the witnesses were brought, and I believe if you would name the witnesses Mr. Bentley. I would not attempt at this time. Here are 15 or 20 witnesses or more* Mr. Thackery. There was the Kah-kah-to the-quah trial. Mr. Bentley. Yes. Mr. Thackery. Did you pay the expenses or did the Government ? Mr. Bentley. I paid every dollar. Mr. Thackery. Name the witnesses. Mr. Bentley. I won't attempt to do that off-handed Senator Townsend. Now, can't you find out? You say "off- hand." Suppose we take one case here. If this thing is right, it can be established, and if it is wrong, this committee has the means for finding it out. Mr. Bentley. Surely, I want to do that. Senator Townsend. Now, can you by taking time think who your witnesses were at that particular trial ? Mr. Bentley. By taking time' — by returning to where my papers are I can give nearly every one of those cases. Probably I have many of the canceled checks. Senator Townsend. Why can you not get your papers here ? Is it not cheaper to get your papers here than to go where your papers are? Mr. Bentley. At this time it is impossible for me to get them unless I go home for them or Mrs. Bentley goes. Our home is broken up and Mrs. Bentley has moved to another place. Our original home is vacant. Part of our effects are there. To bring all my papers here — it would be a wagonload of them. It would take a trunk to bring them here. It is a great desk full of papers that pertain to various stages of this thing. Senator Townsend. Have you anything else to suggest, Mr, Thackery? Mr. Thackery. An item in the account of Mr. Field, dated October 10, 1911, reading: "Oklahoma supplies for Indians and expenses visiting Douglas, Ariz., to complete settlement, $800." Superintendent Buntin, who is present, and myself were present at this particular meeting in Douglas, and we went with Mr. Field from Douglas into the Kickapoo camp near Bacerac, and came back out with the Indians, and Mr. Buntin has a Government voucher where he paid for their camping ground and paid for the meals which those Indians ate on that trip. 1680 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bentley. Now, of course, that has nothing to do with my account. Mr. Thackery. They asked about Mr. Field and Mr. Bentley. Mr. Bentley. I want it understood he is testifying about what Mr. Field did. I was not there. I made no claim or charge. I don't know anything about those things. Mr. Thackery. Superintendent Buntin, as the agent of the Gov- ernment, paid their expense that was necessarily incurred by the Indians who came up at this particular time. Senator Townsend. Is that in Mr. Bentley's account ? Mr. Thackery. This is Mr. Field's account. Senator Townsend. We have not had Mr. Field. Mr. Thackery. You asked, if I understood you, as to Field and Bentley. Kepresentative Burke. It is included in that statemeat, is it not? Mr. Bentley. Do you mean to say that Mr. Buntin subsisted those Indians up there and provided them with subsistence to return? Mr. Thackery. He has vouchers showing it. Mr. Bentley. He bought a few dollars' worth of groceries at Douglas. It was a mere trifle that he paid, according to what the Indians told me. Mr. Thackery. You think he paid more than $800 ? Mr. Bentley. I think that is a very large sum to have been paid on that occasion. I am not contending that that was not paid, but I think the sum paid by the Government at that time was a mere trifle, and I would like to have the record of that expenditure by the Government shown. Mr. Thackery. Have you that with you, Mr. Buntin ? (The voucher referred to was subsequently submitted by Mr. Buntin, and is as follows:) Department of the Interior V. S. Indian Service Form approved by Comptroller of the Treasury October 30, 1907. [Copy.] 5— 335 b Voucher No. . VOUCHER OR CLAIM FOR TRAVELING EXPENSES. (Extra sheet.) 409-A December 30th, 1911. The United States, To John A. Buntin, Dr, (Give post-office address) Shawnee, Oklahoma. Date. 1911. Items. Sub. Vou. No. Amount. Oct. 1st 2nd Breakfast, Douglas, Arizona Dinner, " Supper, " Transfer, Douglas to Agua Prieta and return ' ' 3 Indians, Agua Prieta to Douglas " 3 " Douglas to Agua Prieta Breakfast, Douglas, Ariz.— Thos. W. Alford Dinner, " " Supper, " " Laundry, " " Auto hire, Agua Prieta— " Breakfast, Douglas— self Dinner, " " Supper, " " Transfer, " to Agua Prieta and return " 2 Indian women, Douglas to Agua Prieta . 10.35 .50 .50 .60 .75 .75 .35 .50 .50 .70 .50 .35 .35 .35 .50 .50 KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1681 Date. 1911. Oct. 2nd 3rd 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 18th 27th Dec. 8th 9th 10th 12th 16th Items. Acknowledging 15 powers of attorney and 2 deeds . Photographing two groups of Indians and 2 schedules. Camp yard and house for Indians, 10 days at $1.60. 47 meals of Indian witnesses—© 25* . . 126 - « » - ©as* :::::::::::: Breakfast Dinner Supper '.'.'.'.'.'.'.'. ...Y... Transfer to Agua Prieta and return!!!.!!!!"" Telegram to Shawnee, Okla Transfer, Thomas W. Alford to Agua Prieta. from " Breakfast, Dinner, Supper, Breakfast, Dinner Supper, Laundry, Lodging, self, 3 days, at $1.50 Transportation, Douglas, Arizona to Eagle Pass, Texas " " " T. W. Alford, Shawnee, Okla. 3 days' use of room, @ $2.50 —Thomas W. Alford Breakfast, " ' ' self (on diner) Dinner, Del Rio Transfer, Eagle Pass, Texas, depot to Hotel Dolch Supper, lodging and breakfast, Eagle Pass, Tex , Transportation, Eagle Pass, Texas to Shawnee, Okla Dinner, Spofford, Texas Supper, El Paso, Texas Transfer, Dolch hotel to station Parlor car fare, Spotted to El Paso, Texas Breakfast en route Dinner, Denison, Texas Telegram to Shawnee, Okla Supper . Express on 22 Indian checks to Eagle Pass bank, Texas. . Recording 3 deeds to Frank A . Thackery Transportation, Shawnee to Oklahoma City, Okla Supper, " Lodging, " Breakfast, *' Transportation, Oklahoma City to G nthrie Dinner, " Supper, " Transportation, Guthrie to Oklahoma City Lodging, " Transportation, Oklahoma City to Shawnee Recording quit claim deed & 34 powers of attorney Transportation, Shawnee to Oklahoma City Dinner, " Sub. Vou. No. Amount, $4.25 5.00 16. OQ 11.75 31.50 .35 .70 .35 .50 .26 .75 .50 .35 .35 .35 .35 .75 .75 .70 4.50 24.35 31.20 7.50 .95 .70 .25 .25 1.50 19.30 .40 .60 .25 .70 .25 .60 .25 .55 .70 3.00 1.10 .55 1. 50 .50 .95 .50 .75 .95 1.00 1.10 25. 00 1.10 .35 Senator Townsend. Mr. Thackery, what particular thing can you testify to that was done by Mr. Bentley or Mr. Field that made you believe at the time that they were going to defraud the Indians out of their property ? Mr. Thackery. In the first place, the wording of the legislation itself would lead anybody to think that it was not open and above board. It is so worded as to leave the Indians without proper pro- tection. It takes the control of their trust property out of the hands of any Government authority and places it in other hands without any ordinary provision for its proper management. Senator Townsend. That applied to the portion that went to you, the same as it did to the portion that went to Mr. Bentley ? Mr. Thackery. Yes ; but I was in no way instrumental in getting the legislation. I did not want the fund. It would have been very difficult to have gotten rid of it. I tried to account for it officially, but under the wording of the act, which was procured at their in- stance, I could not do it. 1682 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Now, there were a number of other things. For instance, the re- ceipt which has been several times referred to, wherein he gives an Indian a receipt for $2,000 payable at the convenience of the payor. That was a little lead-pencil receipt, but it seemed to me to indicate fraud on its face. He says that he had given a proper note previous to this which, he says, she had lost, and he gave this in place of it. Now, the note — she denied ever having had any such note. She was a girl that had been to school, and when she turned the money over she wanted to have something to show for it, and she gave that paper to me later on. She came to me and told me the story, and showed me this as being the only thing which she had ever received for this money, and wanted me to help her get her funds back. There were several receipts of that character which came into my hands. Mr. Bentley. Have you any more to offer now ? Mr. Thackery. There was one introduced into the record, which is included in the report of Supervisor Dickson. I do not remember the name of the Indian. Mr. Bentley. I would like to interrupt you, Mr. Thackery, if you will permit it. Mr. Thackery. There were a number of cases of that kind, which did not indicate to me a desire on his part to handle their money by checks or by some accounting which could be followed up and traced to ascertain whether it had been proper or not. Then, the transactions with reference to his attempts to buy, if you please, the testimony of Dr. Conine Mr. Bentley. Now, gentlemen, that Senator Townsend. Wait, Mr. Bentley, just a minute; you will have a chance to testify. I want the witness to complete his state- ment so I can get an answer to my question. You can testify to tins same thing, if necessary. Mr. Thackery. Well, as I have said, these other men— the acts of these other men were undoubtedly very bad. Still Mr. Bentley goes and enters into an arrangement with them whereby, according to the testimony, he agrees to pay one of the men who had been working in opposition to him $3,000, I believe, to come over and desert these other fellows. Mr. Bentley. Please state the testimony that is your authority for that. Tell the committee on whose authority Mr. Thackery. I would like to ask the committee to examine Jack Kelly, city policeman in the city of Shawnee, who held the money— five $10 bills— paid on this contract. I think he holds it yet; he did the last time I saw him. Conine was the man that was to give the testimony and receive the $3,000. Mr. Bentley. You have admitted, though, the whole matter was a frame-up ? Mr. Thackery. I have admitted that, but you indicated, in con- nection with it, that you were willing to enter into it and buy a man's testimony. Mr. Bentley. I have not admitted it. In fairness to myself, I want to explain in this record now Eepresentative Burke. Mr. Chairman, why not let one witness testify ? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1683 The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Thackery, and testify, and then y "™ be permitted to make any statement you desire, Mr. Bentley. u ii Thackery. These men got him into that condition because he had deeds of certain lands which they had deeds on. And after they got him into that fix and had him indicted, then they come to him, as the case would show, and make some arrangement whereby he quitclaims on the cases where he had Mr. Bentley. Do not use the term "case." You know there were no cases. The Chairman. Do not interrupt, Mr. Bentley. Mr. Thackery. He has admitted that these quitclaim deeds were executed by himself or wife, or both, and immediately following that this indictment was dismissed. Then, there is the case, already shown in the record, of Inspector McLaughlin, wherein he enters into a similar deal with one L C. Grimes, one of the most notorious in the alleged fraudulent deeds under the act of 1906 — he enters into a deal with that Mr. Grimes Mr. Bentley. That is the man you arranged with Outcelt to get the Indians out of Mexico. Mr. Thackery. No; I did not arrange with Outcelt. That has not been shown. Mr. Bentley. Your letter shows it. Mr. Thackery. He enters into a deal with this man Grimes to turn to him sufficient votes of the Kickapoo Indians Mr. Bentley. May I ask if he testified in person about it 1 The Chairman. Stop interrupting, Mr. Bentley. I have stated you will be permitted to reply. Mr. Thackery (continuing). Grimes is to turn to him sufficient votes of the Kickapoo Indians, under the act of April 30, 1908, to control this council that is to determine the disposition of this $215,000. And for his services in doing that he is to receive — I be- lieve it is equal to $10,000; and, according to the affidavit of Mr. Grimes and his attorney, who was present and heard the agreement, $100 was paid, or about $100 was paid on that contract, and Mr. Bentley purchased this man Grimes and took him from Shawnee, Okla., to Douglas, Ariz., for the purpose of carrying out this arrange- ment whereby Grimes was to throw him enough votes, because of his influence — to throw him a majority so he might control the dispo- sition of that money. Now, that, mind you, is with the man who, before this subcom- mittee of the Seriate which made this investigation, he charges perhaps more than any other man with all this crookedness; still when he gets into a pinch he is willing to enter into an agreement with him. Those things, I say, led me to believe that their methods were not what they ought to be. There was other things of that character, but those illustrate in a general way what led me to that conclusion. Senator Townsend. Were you in such a frameup, as he calls it, with this man Outcelt ? Mr. Thackery. Absolutely no ; none whatever. Senator Townsend. What were your relations with Outcelt in that matter ? Mr. Thackery. I was sent there in my capacity as superintendent at Shawnee to assist him in procuring any evidence which might be 1684 KICKAPOO INDIANS. available as to transactions growing out of the deeds taken under the act of March 3, 1905, with reference to the seven allotments. And while I was there this 1906 act became a law; it passed, and these other transactions took place. Senator Town send. Did you know that this 1906 act was being considered at that time in Congress ? Mr. Thackery. Yes. sir. Senator Townsend. You knew that when you went down there? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I learned it just a little while before. These other parties took away about 15 or 20 Kickapoos, thinking the act was going to become a law, no doubt, for the purpose of making them nonresidents in order that they might get deeds, and I wired the office to that effect. Senator Townsend. Did you go down to Mexico for anything that had anything to do with that proposed act? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Senator Townsend. You went down there solely in connection with the seven cases ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. When the arrangements was made for our going I don't think the 1906 act was known of at all. This 1906 matter was reported in the newspapers later on, after our arrange- ments to continue the investigation of the seven allotments had been made. The claim has been made by Mr. Bentley that Outcelt used the same interpreter, and that happened in this way: There are very few interpreters in this particular locality, and I had authority to employ a Spanish and an Indian interpreter; but on going to Mexico we first went to the town of Muzquiz to examine the land records there, or whatever records we could find as to the title to any land which he claimed he had bought from the funds coming from these 1905 trans- actions. We came to Muzquiz, and I stayed there, I think, over one night, and when I saw the way the matter was shaping around I left there immediately and went to Eagle Pass where I could take the matter up, as I thought, to better advantage by wire with the depart- ment. I had not employed any Spanish interpreter at that time, but when I left I told Mr. Outcelt that if he found need for an interpreter he might secure one under this authority which I had. We later did employ Dr. Conine, who, from the record, I judge, also acted as the interpreter for »ome of these other men. Senator Townsend. Did you succeed Mr. Bentley as superintend- ent or agent out there of the Kickapoos ? Mr. Thackery. I succeeded Mr. Bentley and two other people. The work that had formerly been under Mr. Bentley and a part of the work that had been done at the school and the superintendency of the Shawnee Indian School— the three positions were consolidated, and I took the work. Senator Townsend. Were there some frauds committed upon the Indians while you were agent there ? Mr. Thackery. You mean in Mexico ? Senator Townsend. No; in Oklahoma. Mr. Thackery. I do not recall any particular frauds. These Kickapoos were undoubtedly defrauded in these transactions growing out of this legislation. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1685 Senator Townsend. As I understood Mr. Bentley— he can correct me if I am wrong— one of his reasons for wanting to get out of Okla- homa with the Indians was because they were not treated fairly and could not be treated fairly; they were being imposed upon almost con- stantly, and some of their property, as I understand it, was taken away from them. Is that correct ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Mr. Thackery. What property do you refer to ? Mr. Bentley. These people would come and interfere with them. Their mules were being stolen and their stock run off. Drunken rene- gades would come there and fight with them Mr. Thackery. There was no considerable amount of that; no. There might have been an occasional disturbance over drunkenness. There is always more or less of that in Oklahoma around those towns, both among the Indians and the whites. Senator Townsend. He stated something, as I recall it, about a fake policeman that would go out among the Indians Mr. Thackery. That was before my time there, long before I went there, and I knew nothing about it. Mr. Bentley. That was in the early days, before allotment, or about that time. A deputy marshal would go and arrest an Indian who had property, on any kind of a paper, and he would compromise it and take his property. Senator Townsend. He has testified that while he was agent there the Kickapoo Indians were satisfied and doing well, but afterwards things went wrong. How were they changed? Mr. Thackery. Well, of course, I do not know how well they did under him, because I was not there, but there was a good deal of agitation amongst them at the time or very soon after I took charge. And the uneasiness of the Indians, so far as I could tell, was caused entirely by stories which were circulated amongst them that shice their agent had been taken away and a superintendent put in his place . the intention of the Government was to force their children into school. They were opposed to their children attending school, and that was a very strong point with them. They did not want their children in school, and they came to me a number of times away in the night. It had been reported to them that I was out in the night after their children, and they would come to my home to see if I really was there. They were all uneasy. Senator Townsend. Did you try to force them into schools? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Did you not establish schools among the Indians ? Mr. Thackery. We had a boarding school there, and I finally, when I gained their confidence, put a large number of them into school. I say a large number; there were not very many. I had 10 or 15 in school when I left there, but for the first several years I did not dare to mention school, because it would have had the effect of scaring them all off to Mexico. They were made to feel that the only way they could avoid the education of their children was to take them and go to Mexico. Senator Townsend. Now, Mr. Thackery, one of the things that this commission wants to find, if it exists, is this — and it wants to 35601— pt 13—14 9 1686 KICKAPOO INDIANS. find it in your case as well as in any other, and will use every means it can to get at the facts in your case just the same as it will in the others. What we would like to know is whether there is anything in your knowledge that this commission ought to know in reference to the conduct of Mr. Bentley or anybody else in connection with this $86,000 fund, or any other fund that the Government has appropri- ated for the Kickapoos, that has not been regular or that indicated that there has been a wrong done the Indians. Mr. Thackery. I should be glad to have a little time to go over this statement to call your attention to whatever may appear. Senator Townsend. I think the committee would be glad to have you do so. The Chairman. Yes; I wish you would do that. Mr. Thackery. I had never had an opportunity to go over this until lately, and to consider this properly will require a comparison with the accounts of Supt. Buntin and myself, as well as the records of the court. Representative Burke. Mr. Thackery, when you received this $101,000 you were the superintennent at the agency and in the employ of the Interior Department ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. And you have been at all times since then and during the time you were disbursing the fund? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. The Interior Department knew you had this $101,000, and that you expected to disburse it? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. Has the department or the Bureau of Indian Affairs ever made any inquiry of you with reference to the fund as to whether you had disbursed it, and to what extent? Mr. Thackery. Mr. Kearful, of the Department of Justice, looked over my account at one time, and said that he did so at the request of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Representative Burke. He looked over your account? What do you mean by that ? Mr. Thackery. He inquired into the manner in which I was pay- ing it out, whether by check or just handing it out in cash. Representative Burke. You have never received any written com- munications from or sent any communications to any branch of the Interior Department that had reference to this disbursement? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; not that I recall. Representative Burke. Now, when you took the Indians over to Douglas, Ariz., for the council, I believe you stated there was an ex- penditure of about $7,000 ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; something like that. Representative Burke. Was that expended from the amount of money that you received, or was that expended from the $215,000? . Mr. Thackery. Some of the Indians had funds to defray their own expenses, and those who had funds loaned those who did not have funds sufficient to make the trip on. After we received the $215,000, or my part of it, they paid — the ones who had borrowed from otuer Indians paid it back from their share of this $215,000. Representative Burke. Then the $101,000 that you received, in round numbers, was divided equally, without any amount being de- ducted for expenses that were paid out on account of that trip ? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1687 Mr..THACKERY. Yes, sir; it was divided equally. Representative Burke. Now, these Indians were allotted, as I understand it, in 1894 ? Mr. Thackery. About that time — 1893. Representative Burke. And all Indians living at that time were allotted ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke.' Then in 1908, when the $215,000 appro- priation was made, there must have been some minors among the Indians, were there not, who were allottees ? Mr. Thackery. Yes; there was. Representative Burke. Some of them as young as 14? Mr. Thackery. The youngest would be about that; yes. Representative Burke. Now, when you credited, as I understand you did, each Indian with one thousand one hundred and ninety- eight dollars and twenty-five or twenty-four cents, as the case might be, did you credit each minor the same as each adult ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. Now, how did you expend the money of the minor ? Mr. Thackery. It was mostly expended as guardian. The young- est, I remember, was a girl named Anna Hale. I think she was the youngest allottee. The account will show for itself. In this case of Anna Hale this $71.05 represented the amount she gave to these five homeless Indians. Representative Burke. How old was she at that time ? Mr. Thackery. I should say she was 14 or 15 years old. Representative Burke. She signed a check the same as the adult Indians ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. And is that true as to other disbursements that were made on her account ? Mr. Thackery. Excepting the last check, which was for $1,072.51. Representative Burke. In this case cf the $1,198.24 you accounted for $1,072.51 as a guardian, having been duly appointed? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. Now, were there any other cases where the money was paid out to minors where you were not appointed guardian ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; not any considerable amount. Representative Burke. Now, in 1894 these Indians were allotted, and in 1908, 14 years afterwards, there were living 82 in Oklahoma and 75 in Mexico. This was in 1908; that would be 14 years after- wards. Do you mean to say there was only one minor? Mr. Thackery. They are all marked here. The book of accounts shows each case where it was a minor [indicating]. Representative Burke. Now, in this case [indicating], how old was this Indian % What is that name ? Mr. Thackery. Pe-ah-puck-o-he. I should say he was about 17 Representative Burke. Of his $1,198 you have expended $880 as guardian ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. 1688 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Kepresentative Burke. The balance you have paid the same as you would pay to an adult ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. Now, in paying money to the minor in anv case, what would that be paid for ? I do not suppose that would be"for building houses or farm implements or horses ? Mr. Thackery. In the case of both of these I speak of a house was later built out of the fund I took up as guardian. Representative Burke. Of the $300 and some odd, $71, 1 under- stand , went to the homeless Indians. But the other items - have you any information as to how that was expended ? Mr Thackery. $71.06 was his share that went to the nve home- less Indians. The next check is a $5 item, which is the amount to pay a certain debt the tribe owed to a man named Much-e-ne-ne. _ Representative Burke. You would not use the money of a minor to pay a debt of the tribe ? Mr. Thackery. The tribe paid it pro rata. The tribe made a trip to the city. $52.19-1 do not recall just what that item was. The amount expended in that way, in every case of a minor, was small. . Representative Burke. You stated m response to a question asked you by Senator Townsend that the relations between Mr. Bentley and Mr. Field you considered had been rather intimate? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. Do you recall being here in 1912 when you testified before a conference committee, at which time you made some statement about there being some period when the relations between Mr. Field and Mr. Bentley were not as cordial as they had been? Mr. Thackery. Well, they both at times, especially during the past four or five years, came to me and complained of each other, apparently having had disagreements, having fallen out. But when- ever it comes to a show-down they always get together all right. Representative Burke. To refresh your recollection, and perhaps you can refresh mine, I recall some statement you made that Mr. Field had talked with you quite freely at a time when he and Bentley had fallen out over an allotment made to one Jim Deer. Do you recall anything about that ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, I do. I do not remember the details of it, but I know that Mr. Field related to me that he was having much diffi- culty in getting Mr. Bentley to handle this particular case the way he wanted it. The allotment in question was that of a deceased daughter of Jim Deer, from which the restrictions were removed in the 1905 act, and the difference between them was over the handling of the funds coming from the sale of that allotment. They did have at one time, according to the statement Mr. Field made to me, quite a little difference about that case. Representative Burke. Was that over the money involved? Mr. Thackery. Over the money involved, as I remember it; yes, sir. Representative Burke. Did Mr. Field tell you the details of the difference, so that you can relate them? Mr. Thackery. No; I do not recall it now. What he told me was on a trip, I think, into Bacerac, where the Indians resided. I would KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1689 not attempt now to relate the details of the conversation, but I know that according to his story there had been quite a difference. Representative Burke. From your recollection, was there any- thing about that transaction that would strengthen the opinion that you had formed that either or both of these gentlemen were not dealmg squarely and honestly with the Indians ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. Can you relate anything about what gave you that impression ? Mr. Thackery. Well, it was the statement that Mr. Field had made that he could not get Bentley to account, I think, to this Inter- national Trust Co. of Delaware. He wanted Bentley, as I remember, to turn over the funds so that it might be taken up in that inter- national company. I would not be sure at this time, but it was something along that order, and he related the details. Representative Burke. Do you remember what the amount involved was ? Mr. Thackery. My recollection is that it was very nearly $8,000. Senator Lane. Now, Mr. Thackery, you were trustee of those Indians. Was it not your duty to see that their money was expended properly, and to follow up the transaction ? Mr. Thackery. As far as I could; yes, sir. Senator Lane. You say that you gave no bond for this, and con- sequently you left the inference that there was not much responsi- bility. There has been no one yet to whom you have been held responsible for this expenditure. Congress made an appropriation and intrusted it to you, and you are now going to be held responsible. Mr. Thackery. Congress intrusted it, as I understand it, to the Indians. Senator Lane. The money has been passed over to you, and you are now going to be held responsible for it, and there has been some question about it; I will say that to you. I am going to ask you now to file a full statement of your expenditures here, showing each individual transaction, and your vouchers for the same, if you can possibly do so. Mr. Thackery. Of course I would not want to give up my checks. I am willing to turn them over to you for examination. Senator Lane. Both of this trust fund and your administration fund. I want a full and complete statement of it, the same as you would hand in to a bank in any other business transaction. Mr. Thackery. What do you mean by the "administration" fund? Senator Lane. Where you acted as administrator; I mean, as guardian. Mr. Thackery. Of course, the guardian accounts are accounted for in the courts. That would necessitate a trip to Oklahoma to get those. Senator Lane. You filed an accounting with the court, did you not? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Well, you can charge it off to the court, or wherever it goes. Free yourself of it. Representative Burke. You do not ask him to account to us in detail for what the court has approved ? 1690 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Lane. No; we have nothing to do with the court. Representative Burke. Do you not think, Mr. Thackery, for your own protection, after you submit these vouchers it would be desirable from, every standpoint to have those vouchers deposited with the Interior Department in order that they may be preserved ? Mr. Thackery. I am perfectly willing to do that. (Thereupon at 11. 5 o'clock p. m. the joint commission proceeded to the consideration of executive business, and at 11.55 o'clock p. m. adjourned to meet at the call of the chairman.) MAY 18, 1914. Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, Washington, D. 0. FUNDS OF THE MEXICAN KICKAPOO INDIANS. The joint commission met in room No. 128, Senate Office Building, at 9.30 o'clock a. m. Present: Senators Robinson (chairman), Lane and Townsend; Representatives Stephens, Carter, and Burke. TESTIMONY OF MR. FRANK A. THACKERY— Resumed. The Chairman. Mr. Thackery, what was the balance you had on hand when you made the settlement with your successor as superin- tendent of the Shawnee Agency ? Mr. Thackery. Well, this account was not balanced and settled with him. The Chairman. Did you not turn over a part of the fund to him? Mr. Thackery. The funds I received were turned over in this way: Where I was guardian, he either assumed in a few cases the guardi- anship himself or I closed up the guardianship and gave the minor — or the adult in many of these cases — the amount due. And in those cases, in many of them, we encouraged them to go to Supt. Buntin and turn it over to him as superintendent. The Chairman. Your accounts with reference to this fund have been checked over by the clerks of this commission and representa- tives of the Indian Bureau ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. . The Chairman. Has a statement of the amounts transferred to the guardianship account, as shown by your ledger, been prepared ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; that shows the cash transferred. If I might explain that a little, this account which you have there would show a transfer in cash to the guardianship account of $419.63. The Chairman. Whose account is that ? Mr. Thackery. Pe-ah-mah-ske. Now, for this particular Indian, in addition to that cash, I accounted in my guardianship account for the total amount which I had previously paid him. That is, as I remember now, I took his receipt for all the amount represented in his full account, excepting the $419.63, and included that receipt in my settlement as guardian, and then took up the cash which I then had on hand — $419.63 — in the guardian account. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1691 The Chairman. So, as to that Indian, the whole amount- Mr. Thackery. Was accounted for as guardian under my guar- dianship account. That is true of every account where I was guardian. The Chairman. How many of the accounts were you guardian in ? Is this a statement of them ? [Exhibiting a paper.] Mr. Thackery. No, sir; that is not all of them. It was approxi- mately 68 or 70 accounts out of 85. J The Chairman. What is that statement ? Mr. Thackery. This is the cash on hand at the time I transferred these different accounts to my guardian account, but it does not show the amount which I had previously paid to the Indian and for which I took a receipt and which I accounted for in my guardian accounts in the final settlement. The Chairman. Was this amount turned over to Mr. Buntin ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; that amount was finally turned over to the Indian; and, in some cases, no doubt, the Indian left parts, at least, of that money with Mr. Buntin as superintendent, and he took it up in his official capacity, especially in cases where they were minors. The Chairman. Did you turn any of these funds over to Mr. Buntin ? Mr. Thackery. I could not be sure, but I do not think I did directly. We did not find any paper in the Indian Office — papers which he signed when he receipted to me which showed that he actually received it from me. Representative Burke. Just to clear up that point, was there any way that you could do so ? You had been made trustee, as I under- stand it, under an act of Congress Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The comptroller's opinion precluded him taking it up in his official capacity, although we have another law or provision that a voluntary deposit by an Indian may be taken up by the superintendent. Representative Burke. I understand; but, as -trustee, you had no authority to delegate someone else without the consent of the parties that made you trustee ? Mr. Thackery. No. Representative Stephens. Mr. Thackery, if you did turn over any of these funds to Mr. Buntin did you take a receipt for them ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Have you those receipts, or was it all m 0ne ' -0 1 1 1 Mr. Thackery. If there were such receipts — if such funds were turned over the receipts would be on file in the Indian Office, and we found receipts there where he had receipted for a lot of individual Indian money; but it is impossible to say positively whether some of those individual funds represented funds here or not. However, this is true, that in every guardianship account my guardian account shows the disposition of the whole amount under my guardian bond, which has been audited Representative Burke. That is, in those cases did you account in your settlement in the local county court for the moneys you. had disbursed of the amount due the ward before you were actually appointed guardian? 1692 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Thackery. Not before I was actually appointed guardian; no. I accounted for all funds which I received during the time that I was guardian. The Chairman. Now, is this a correct list of the amount trans- ferred to your guardianship accounts as shown by your ledger ? Mr. Thackeky. That is a correct account of the cash transferred to the guardian account; yes, sir. The Chairman. Let that go in the record. (The statement referred to is as follows:) List of amounts of cash transferred to guardianship account of F. A. Thackery, as shown by his ledger accounts. Page. Indian. Check No. Amount. 2 1027 977 994 995 996 971 998 814 815 997 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 816 1011 972 817 818 873 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 786 1018 953 934 973 819 1019 974 975 1030 828 1041 810.00 10 345.00 lfi 12.00 24 240.00 40 419.00 42 880.00 44 300.00 ■58 8.89 on 5.00 72 300.00 82 400.00 84 549.34 86 470.00 90 200.00 92 650.00 94 8.00 96 575.00 102 405.70 104 10.00 100 10.00 110 2.78 79.00 300. 00 114 650.00 118 300.00 120 50.00 124 525.25 126 10.00 136 150. 00 138 920.00 144 10.00 146 Anna Hale 1,072.51 10.00 150 152 10.00 577.84 154 966. 69 164 Ko ke In eqnah 250.10 108 Nan she pe eth 10.00 Total 110.00 11,802.73 Do not the probate laws of Oklahoma are wound up there shall be an order Representative Stephens. provide that when accounts entered in the record ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Has that been done in these cases? Mr. Thackery. I think it has, in every case. Representative Stephens. Could you get us those orders of discharge ? Mr. Thackery. I can, at a considerable expense. I suppose you would want them certified to. I should be glad to get a statement in any form that you desire. Representative Stephens. Most of the probate courts that I have had anything to do with enter an order of final discharge. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1693 Mr. Thackery. What I meant was that to get it authenticated would cost in each case possibly a dollar or two. Representative Stephens. I did not suppose they would charge Mr. Thackery. I should be glad to get whatever you want. Representative Stephens. That would be the only way to know whether or not you had been finally discharged ? Mr. Thackery. Yes. It was suggested the other day that I could get a certified copy of the final report, which would show the discharge and the accounting as well. Representative Stephens. If we had the final discharge it would be presumed that the court had passed upon all these accounts. Mr. Thackery. Yes. I shall be glad to get that if I can. The accounts are in three different counties in Oklahoma. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, what is the object in having those records ? If he has been finally discharged what is the use of going to that expense ? Representative Stephens. I did not suppose it would be necessary to go to any great expense. Representative Burke. In the absence of any suggestion of any improper conduct in those cases, I do not see why it should be neces- sary. The Chairman. That is my idea. Mr. Thackery. I would be glad to give you a list of the guardian- ships in the three different counties, and then, if you like, you may correspond with the judge in each county and find out. The Chairman. Is not that a list of them right there? Mr. Thackery. That is not a list of all of them. That is a list of the cases where I took up cash. The Chairman. What I want to ask you is, if you found it neces- sary and thought it proper to account for a part of this fund as guardian, why you did not do it as to all of them. Mr. Thackery. I did do it as to all of them. I have not made myself clear there. Take this account [indicating]. This shows it has been transcribed to the guardian account. In fact, there is no cash in this case actually taken up as guardian, but I went to the court and showed I had received $1,198.25 in this particular case, and then I produced receipts from the Indians for that amount, and accounted for it under my guardian bond. The Chairman. Did you take out letters of guardianship in all cases ? In what cases did you become guardian ? Mr. Thackery. I became guardian in the cases wherever the Indian at the time the act of 1906 was passed was still living in Oklahoma, for the purpose of preventing him from becoming a nonresident under that act and selling his land. I did not take those guardianships for the ordinary purpose, but to protect the Indian's title to his land. Then when I came to close up these guardianships it was suggested that, although I had not intended to handle his funds at all — these Indians were adults — it was suggested that, in order to have my guardianship account straight and complete without question, I should account for these funds. That suggestion did not occur to me until after I had paid out a lot of this money as trustee ; but in order to put the responsibility on myself as guardian, under my bond, I included a statement of what I had received and the receipts therefor 1694 KICKAPOO INDIANS. in this account, and became responsible for it under that bond to the court. The court has examined those accounts and given a final discharge in every case so far as I know. The Chairman. Now, at the request of the commission, the clerks of the commission and the representative of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Mr. Murphy, went over the vouchers which you have pre- sented here showing your payments on account of this fund, and made a memorandum talcing exception to certain items; that is, calling attention to certain apparent objections to them. I find in the account of Much-e-ne-ne, check No. 226, July 11, 1908, for $51.75, that that check is missing. Do you know how that occurred ? Mr. Thackery. No, I do not at this time. I recall that that check was to pay an indebtedness he had for clothes, dry goods, etc. The Chairman. To whom? Mr. Thackery. I think it was to Johnson & Dickson, Shawnee, Okla.; but just where the check is now I do not know. The Chairman. Have you the stub of the check? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. To whom was it payable? Mr. Thackery. They were all payable to the Indian. The Chairman. In every case the check was made payable to the Indian ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know whether the check was ever re- turned to you or not? Mr. Thackery. I could not be sure. The Chairman. What bank was it drawn on? Mr. Thackery. The Shawnee National, in all cases. The Chairman. You have no further recollection of the trans- action ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. I shall try to locate the check; I think I can. The Chairman. In the case of Wah-pe-ke-che it appears that there is a discrepancy there of $25. Do vou know anything about that? y Mr. Thackery. I did not know about it until we added up the account on the adding machine here. The Chairman. Have you verified that to see whether or no there is a mistake of that kind? Mr. Thackery. I think it is a mistake in addition. When the Indian came in for his last check he, no doubt, said he wanted to draw the balance due, and in adding it up I evidently found that there was $100 due, whereas it should have been $125. The Chairman. The mistake was then $25 in your favor ? Mr. Thackery. Yes; I owe the Indian, in other words, $25 in that account. The Chairman. Now, as to Wah-sko-tak, page 18 of your ledger, I find a memorandum that he was overpaid $50. How did that occur, if it is true ? Mr. Thackery. In the same way, I presume. The Chairman. Have you any personal recollection about that! Mr. Thackery. No; I have not. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1695 The Chairman. Have you traced that up since your attention was called to it ? Mr. Thackery. I assisted the clerks here. The Chairman. And you found there was . Mr. Thackery. That there was a mistake there of that amount; yes, sir. The Chairman. And you had overpaid him $50 ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, as to Stephen Mohawk, page 38. of your ledger, I find a memorandum here that his check for $300 does not appear to have been legally indorsed. What do you know about that? Mr. Thackery. I know that the indorsement is not his, but, on the other hand, it is that of his wife. The Chairman. Do you know that ? Mr. Thackery. Yes; I know her signature. She writes English. The Chairman. Will you let us see that if it is convenient to find it ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. ; He was about dead at that time with tuberculosis, and my idea would be that he was too sick to attend to the matter himself, and she signed his name for him. [Handing check to the chairman.] The Chairman. What was that issued for ? Does your stub show ? Mr. Thackery. I will look and see. I do not know. The Chairman. The number is 235. Senator Lane. July 15, 1908; Stephen Mohawk; for support, $300. That is the way the stub reads. Mr. Thackery. His wife was formerly known as Effie Douglas, and she was an educated girl. The Chairman. Is that her personal handwriting ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; that is her writing. The Chairman. I note an indorsement on the back which appears to be in your writing, I take it, below her indorsement, "paid cash to Stephen Mohawk." Mr. Thackery. No; that is not mine. The Chairman. Who wrote that? Mr. Thackery. I do not know. I presume it was the bank. It is not my writing. Representative Burke. Did that check for $300 pass through the bank, and was it returned to you as having been paid ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; it has the stamp of the bank, marked "paid" on it. The Chairman. Now, I find three other checks: One numbered 486, for $33.19; another numbered 550, for $224.65; and still a third, numbered 779, for $25. It is noted in this memorandum that those checks were not indorsed by Stephen Mohawk himself. Have you examined those checks since this was called to your attention ? Mr. Thackery. I do not believe I have. The Chairman. That appears to me to be in the same writing as the indorsement of the check for $300 that you have just spoken of and which you said was indorsed by his wife, formerly Effie Douglas. Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. When did he die? Mr. Thackery. He died— I do not know the date. It must have been 1909 or 1910; somewhere along about that time. 1696 KICKAPOO INDIANS. The Chairman. Did you know him personally at that time? Mr. Thackery. I did. The Chairman. What was his physical condition ? Mr. Thackery. He died with tuberculosis, after lingering for some months. The Chairman. Was he confined to his bed at the time you speak of? Mr. Thackery. Part of the time. The Chairman. What I am trying to find out is why his wife indorsed the check instead of him. Mr. Thackery. I presume it was on account of his sickness. I think he signed by mark. The Chairman. The check for $300 has also her indorsement on it. The other three checks that I have last called to your attention have not her indorsement. All the four checks to Stephen Mohawk are stamped as paid by the bank. Mr. Thackery. I am sure of this, that the checks were all issued to him prior to his death, and I did not know until this examination about those indorsements. The Chairman. Your attention has never been called to them? Mr. Thackery. No. Representative Stephens. Would not the presumption be that the bank officers themselves would not have paid the money out had they not been properly indorsed ? The Chairman. It is apparent they were not properly indorsed; but I think the assumption is he would not know about it if the bank chose to pay it out on a bad indorsement. Mr. Thackery. When the bank stamps it "Paid" it assumes the responsibility, and if the indorsement is not right the bank would be responsible to me, because they were in each case payable to Steve Mohawk. The Chairman. Now, in the case of Peah-puck-o-he, check No. 409, for $52.19, exception is taken to that check because the indorse- ment docs not appear to have been witnessed. Mr. Thackery (examining the check). It does not show any witness. The Chairman. This check is indorsed by a mark and not wit- nessed. The check is marked, "Paid" by the bank, July 17, 1908. The date of the check is July 16, 1908. Have you any personal knowledge of that indorsement, Mr. Thackery? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have not. The Chairman. In the case of Mack Johnson, check No. 221, for $21, it is stated here that the check is missing. Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know how it happens that you have not that check ? Mr. Thackery. I think the check was introduced in a case in court to verify his signature. He wrote his own name. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not it was ever cashed ? Mr. Thackery. I would not be positive, but my recollection is that it was cashed, and he was a witness in court in a case in which an attempt was made to impeach his testimony, and that I was asked to produce his signature on various papers. I did that, at least, in several cases, and I think this was one. He was an inter- KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1697 preter in that 1906 trouble, and he was used as a witness in a good many cases. s , T ^ C ^^ MAS - Now > as t0 John Snake, it appears that on Novem- ber ll, 1909, you took credit for a cash payment of $161. Did you take any voucher for that % Mr. Thackery I did not. I think I can procure receipts from the • doctor and the merchants from whom I bought provisions and clothing for him during his illness. That was done at a time, I think, when he was almost dead with tuberculosis. The Chairman. Did you pay the money to the doctor or to these creditors ? Mr. Thackery. In some cases I paid the money and in the others 1 paid his doctor bill and the bills to grocers, etc. The Chairman. Did you take receipted bills ? Mr. Thackery. I did not at that time. The Chairman. How did you know what you were paying out' How did you keep the account ? Mr. Thackery. I paid the little items as they came along out of my personal funds, as I recall it now, and later reimbursed myself. The Chairman. How did you keep the account ? Mr. Thackery. I had a little memorandum of it. The Chairman. Have you that here % Mr. Thackery. No; I have not. I have not it here. The Chairman. Let us see your entry on your ledger with refer- ence to that. [Examining the ledger.} The entry appears to have been made November 27, 1909. When were the payments made, if you know ? Mr. Thackery. They were made prior to that, but I could not give you the date. Eepresentative Burke. Before leaving that account, that seems to be one where a payment of $161 was made without any voucher. Now, is that party dead ? Mr. Thackery. Yes. Eepresentative Burke. When did he die ? Mr. Thackery. He died — I do not know the date, but it must have been the latter part of 1909 or the first part of 1910. Representative Burke. What became of the balance of his $1,198 % Mr. Thackery. I haVe checks for all the balance, paid to him direct. Representative Burke. Whom did he leave, if you know, in the way of heirs % Mr. Thackery. He left this Joseph Murdock that was before your commission — no; he left Joseph Murdock's wife — Joseph Murdock is his brother-in-law — and three other sisters, I believe. Representative Burke. Has any person at any time ever called upon you with reference to his account or raised any question with regard to it ? Mr. Thackery. Nobody has raised any question with it. I went over it with a number of people. In fact, his sisters came to me dur- ing his illness, and I went with them to the camp and made payments and took him provisions at the suggestion of and with his sisters and relatives. Representative Burke. Subsequent to his death has any person raised any question ? 1698 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Thackery. No, sir; none whatever. Eepresentative Stephens. Were you his guardian appointed by the court ? Mr. Thackery. Not for this particular Indian; no. The Chairman. Now, let us go on to check No. 993, to No-sha-she, for $50. Let us see that check. [Examining check.] That does not appear to have been stamped "paid" by the bank; but there is writ- ten, in pencil, across it the word "paid." What do you know about that? Mr. Thackery. I did not know that was done until it was called to my attention the other day. I want to call attention to the witness on the back, John W. Jones, who was cashier of this Shawnee National Bank. He was then and is now cashier of that bank, and he witnessed the check, and he has evidently written "paid" across the face of the check, but did not stamp it. Representative Stephens. It is the custom to stamp it; but do they sometimes neglect it ? Mr. Thackery. There are three or four cases where there is no stamp, although I think it bears in each case the witness of the cashier to the signature. Representative Burke. Do you know whether this check came back to you through the bank and was charged to your account? Mr. Thackery. It did. The Chairman. How do you know that ? Mr. Thackery. I would not have had the check unless it had. All those checks came to me from the bank — all that I have. Representative Burke. I notice it appears to have been on a spindle. Representative Stephens. Did the bank furnish you a statement showing_ the number and the amount of the checks, such as they usually is ,ue at the request of the depositor, showing the amount of money on deposit, the amount of the checks, to whom drawn, and all that ? Mr. Thackery._ When they do submit a statement and return these canceled checks, it would show the balance on hand and the -checks drawn from that time back to the previous statement. Representative Stephens. Was this charged against you on the bank's statement ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know who wrote that word "paid" across there in pen- il ? Mr. Thackery. I do not; no, sir. The Chairman. Do you personally know John W. Jones ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I know his signature. The Chairman. Did you ever ask him about this before? Mr. Thackery. I did not know it until Mr. Keating called my attention to it the other day. I had never seen it before. The Chairman. The next check was to this same Indian, No. 610, for $175, and that appears to be in the same condition, not marked paid by the bank. Representative Burke. Before you leave No. 993, I should like him to state, if he knows, what that was for. The Chairman. Do you know what that was for ? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1699 Mr. Thackery. Not without looking it up. [Examining stub book.] No, I do not. I presume it was given to him in cash. The stub does not show any notation. Senator Lane. Did you not keep an account of what they were for ? Mr. Thackery. Not in every case; no, sir. I paid it in cash in some cases where they demanded it, and trusted it to them. The Chairman. This check for $175, No. 610, to Mo-sha-she, does not appear to have been stamped or marked paid at all. Do you know about that ? Mr. Thackery. I do not. The Chairman. On that check you are one of the witnesses to the mark of the Indian, and R. F. Anderson is the other. His indorse- ment also appears on the check. Do you know what that check was for and whether it was ever paid % Mr. Thackery. It was for a horse — I looked it up yesterday, at the request of Mr. Keating, and the stub shows, I think, that it was for a horse and something else. I remember this man R. F. Ander- son was a farmer. I presume he is still living in that locality, but why the check is not stamped paid I do not know. I know it went to the bank and came to me. [Examining stub book.] The stub is marked "one-half on a team and harness." The Chairman. Have you any recollection of the transaction further than you have stated ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have not. The Chairman. The next is the case of Tah-pah-she, page 68 of your ledger. I find here a notation that he was overpaid $10. Mr. Thackery. It was just an error in addition. I tried to collect that money, and never got it back. The Chairman. You discovered that error ? Mr. Thackery. Yes; I had a notation here of that. The Chairman. In the case of Na-mah-che-tha-quah, check No. 1137 for $25 appears to be missing. Have you any recollection of that transaction ? Mr. T ha ckery. No, sir; there are two checks in her account for the same amount missing. The Chairman. The other check does not appear to be numbered from the stub. Mr. Thackery. What is the page, please ? The Chairman. It does not appear what page it is. Mr. Thackery. The checks are both missing. I do not have any personal recollection about that at this time. I am satisfied I can find the checks in the bank. They were drawn in August, 1910. The Chairman. What date ? Mr. Thackery. August 6, 1910. They were payable to two heirs. This woman had died, and they were payable to her two daughters. Representative Burke. Is that all in that account? The Chairman. Yes. Representative Burke. Were those the last two payments made * Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. Is the account closed? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. And no claim has been made ol any balance due? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. 1700 KICKAPOO INDIANS. The Chairman. In the case of check No. 992 for $30 to Me-thup- pe-hah, it appears that this check was supposed to be witnessed by ' the cashier and not marked paid by the bank on which it was drawn. Do you know about that ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; nothing more • than what the check shows. The Chairman. The check was charged to you? Air. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Of course, you have no means of knowing whether the amount of the check was ever actually paid to the Indian ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. I know it went through the bank, because it is witnessed by the cashier. It has the signature of the cashier of the bank on the back of it, and it shows it has been punc- tured by the spindle on which they stick their checks, but it is not marked paid by the bank. The Chairman. The next check is No. 1052, for $20, to Ke-check- ko-thah. That check was not marked paid by the bank. Is it indorsed ? Mr. Thackery. That check went through our own office and evi- dently was cashed in our office. The Chairman. That bears your signature as superintendent to the mark, and your stamp as superintendent and special disbursing agent. Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have you any recollection about it? Mr. Thackery. No; I have not. The Chairman. Does your record show what it was for? Have you any record of what it was for? Mr. Thackery. I do not think I have that stub here. Senator Townsend. This check was drawn on the Shawnee National Bank? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; all of them were. It shows here to have been punctured by the spindle. Senator Townsend. But there is nothing there to show that the bank ever paid it? Mr. Thackery. No; there is nothing there. My statement will show that, I am satisfied. The Chairman. Your statement from the bank? Air. Thackery. My bank statement; yes, sir. Representative Stephens. You have not that here? Mr. Thackery. No; I wired for it; but for some reason it was not included with these papers. I wired for everything pertaining to this matter, and I presume Mrs. Thackery did not find it. Representative Stephens. This identical matter has been charged up against you ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; it has been charged against me. The Chairman. How do you know ? Have you ever checked that account? Mr. Thackery. I would not have had the check unless it had come through the usual channel. Senator Townsend. You paid this check at the office there ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; that is what I should suppose from the indorsement. The Chairman. How, did it ever get to the bank, then ? KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1701 Mr. Thackery. This must have been deposited in the Bank of Commerce, in Shawnee, where I kept my official deposit. Representative Burke. You took cash out of the drawer, as I understand it, and then used this ? Mr. Thackery. .Yes, sir. We did that in a number of cases, and I think m every case where this rubber stamp -I think in every case of that kind we cashed the check for the Indian at the office, and then this check went through the Bank of Commerce and around through the Shawnee National Bank. But why it is not stamped I do not know. The Chairman. It appears that several checks were issued to Mah-ka-tah-ko-thah: No. 35 for $20, No. 36 for $10, No. 39 for $15, No. 40 for $10, and No. 41 for $95. All these checks are missing. Do you know about that ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I do not. I only know I have not got them. The Chairman. Have you the stubs ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I think I have— for most of them, any- way. The Chairman. Number 35 is the first. [Reading from stub.] "Expense of trip to Douglas, Ariz., and return, $75.75." Mr. Thackery. It should be No. 1135. The Chairman. How much was that for ? Mr. Thackery. $20; No. 1136, $10; No. 1139, $15; No. 1140, $10: and No. 1141, $95. The Chairman. Does your record show what that was for ? Mr. Thackery. No, it does not. The Chairman. Have you a stub of it ? Mr. Thackery. No, I have not. The Chairman. Do you know how it happens you have neither stub nor check ? Mr. Thackery. No; I have the stub, but I have not got it here. It was apparently overlooked. The Chairman. In the case of Mah-squah-ko, page No. 112 of your record, check No. 1068 for $100, that check is not marked paid by the bank. Senator Townsend. All these checks that are not marked paid by the bank are still claims against the United States Indian agency, are they not ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; they are claims against me as trustee. Senator Townsend. You drew these in the name of the United States Indian agency ? Mr. Thackery. No; they were drawn by me as trustee in every case. Most of these that are not stamped paid, Senator, have the signature witnessed by the cashier of the bank. I am sure that the failure to stamp the check paid on its face is simply an oversight or an error of the bank. Representative Burke. It is a very common thing. I can show you one or more checks in my bank account every month that are not stamped. The Chairman. This is witnessed by John W. Jones, who is sup- posed to be the same cashier who witnessed the other checks, is he not? 35601— pt 13—14 10 1702 KIOKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Thaokery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Page No. 142 of your ledger, the account of Mack Downs. Check No. 881, it appears, was for $100, "to correct error." What error was that ? Mr. Thackery. I do not recall now. The Chairman. Have you any memorandum concerning it? Representative Burke. It does not show anything here on the stub. Mr. Thackery. There is no notation here. The Chairman. What does your account show with reference to that? Mr. Thackery. It shows that after his account was closed $100 was -deposited and $100 checked out. I do not recall now why that was. The Chairman. Have you any way of refreshing your memory about it? Mr. Thackery. I do not know what it would be, unless I talked to Mm or his brother. The Chairman. What is this pencil note there ? Mr. Thackery. "Transcribed to guardian account." Representative Stephens. Was his estate being administered upon by you ? Mr. Thackery. I was his guardian; yes, sir. All of this was accounted for in my guardian account. The Chairman. Check No. 617 for $82.50. Have you that check? Do you know Mack Downs's indorsement when you see it? Mr. Thackery. He signs by mark. The Chairman. This is not signed by mark? Mr. Thackery. No. The Chairman. Do you know who wrote that indorsement on there ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I do not. The Chairman. What was that for ? Mr. Thackery. I think that check was for a buggy and harness at a hardware store — the J. L. Roebuck Hardware Co. The Chairman. It appears that the check is marked paid by the ?bank. Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You have no further knowledge of the trans- action than that ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have not. Representative Stephens. The stub shows it was for a buggy and Siarness. The Chairman. Page 150 of your ledger, in the account of Py-ah- 4ho, check No. 712 for $2.50 appears to be missing. Then check "No. 711 for $40 appears to have been indorsed by mark, but no wit- aiess to mark. Do you know about that ? Senator Lane. What number was that ? The Chairman. Numbers 712 and 711 were $2.50 and $40, respectively. The smaller check is missing, and the $40 check was indorsed by mark, not witnessed. Senator Lane. Are there not a large number, or a good many, of those checks here that have no witness to the mark ? The Chairman. I am going through all of them. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1703 Mr. Thackery. I am not positive about that woman, but I do not think she could write her name. I think she signed by mark alto- gether, and I do not know whose signature that is. Representative Burke. Can you tell in these cases whether there was a guardianship or not ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. I wish you would state that in each instance where these checks are referred to. Mr. Thackery. I was guardian in this case, and I accounted for the whole amount as guardian. Representative Burke. That is important in connection with all these cases. The Chairman. Page 134, Millie Stevens, check No. 826, for $150. It appears that this check was not marked paid. Will you let me see that? (After examining check.) I find a notation on this check No. 826 for $150 to Millie Stevens, not marked paid by the bank, "Recovery of land and court costs." The check bears the indorse- ment, apparently, of Millie Stevens in her own handwriting, and the Shawnee National Bank, of Shawnee, and the First National Bank of Cloud, Okla. Do you remember about that check ? Mr. Thackery. I would not say that I do especially, more than it is my recollection that the check was drawn to provide her with money to make a tender back to whoever claimed to have purchased her land. In cases where we filed a suit to recover the land; that is, in cases where it appeared the Indian had actually received any money, in filing a suit we tendered the money back. The Chairman. Were the amounts accepted? Mr. Thackery. I do not think they were accepted in any case. The Chairman. What became of the money then? Mr. Thackery. If the amount was small, they kept it. The Chairman. In cases of that sort, where it was $150, was it not repaid to the trustee ? Or was it ever done ? Mr. Thackery. I would not be sure, now. There were only four or five cases of that character. I do not think any of it was repaid. Representative Burke. The stub of check No. 826 has this memo- randum: "Recovery of land, $120; court costs, $30." Can you state whether or not that $120 was for services of attorneys? Mr. Thackery. It was not. Representative Burke. The $30 court costs would be money paid out, I presume, and that would not be returned to anybody, would it ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The Chairman. In the case of Andrew Whipple, is there still a bal- ance due him ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much ? Mr. Thackery. $250. The Chairman. Why has his account not been settled ? Mr. Thackery. He was an adopted Kickapoo, and at the time his account was about to be closed up it was discovered that he had dis- posed — he h a d sold a team of muks with the Government brand on them, which was unlawful for him to do, and I refused to pay him the $250 until he returned the mules. Soon after that he disappeared, and at the time I left Shawnee he had not been heard of yet. 1704 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Lane. Did he take the mules with him? Mr. Thackeey. He had sold them before he left. Senator Lane. Did the Government recover them? Mr. Thackeey. No, sir. The Chaieman. What were they worth ? Mr. Thackeey. $250 is the amount the Government had paid for them. They were bought and issued to him with the Government brand on them. The Chaieman. And he had not paid for them ? Mr. Thackeey. No; they were issued to him in trust with the Government brand. He was not allowed to dispose of them. Senator Lane. What are you going to do with that fund ? Mr. Thackeey. Mr. Buntin tells me he knows where the fellow is. It was finally discovered that he joined the Army. Mr. Buntin tells me he has heard of that. Mr. Buntin. He is at Pueblo, Colo. Senator Lane. What was your intention ? To cover this into the Treasury ? Mr. Thackeey. My intention was simply to make him bring back the mules. Senator Lane. But he did not do it, and you retained the money? Mr. Thackeey. I retained the money. Senator Lane. Where is that money now? Mr. Thackery. It is in the Mesa City Bank, Mesa City, Ariz. Senator Lane. And it never was turned into the Treasury? Representative Burke. It could not be. Senator Lane. And it will stay there indefinitely, will it? Representative Burke. It is just another incident connected with legislation that Congress has enacted. Senator Townsend. How could the Indian return the mules ? Mr. Thackery. He could go and settle with the man he had sold them to. Senator Townsend. Do you know who bought the mules ? Mr. Thackery. No; I do not. Senator Townsend. He did not have a right to buy them, anyway? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Did you ever attempt to prosecute the fellow? Mr. Thackery. I could not find out who he was. This fellow ad- mitted selling them somewhere in the Indian Territory, but I could not locate them. Senator Lane. Are you sure he sold them? How do you know he sold them? Mr. Thackery. He said he did. The Chairman. I see a small check, No. 717, for $6.90, to Joseph Murdock, which does not appear to be among your vouchers here. Is that the same Joseph Murdock that has been here as an inter- preter ? Mr. Thackeey. Yes, sir. I was legal guardian in his case and accounted for all his funds. Representative Bueke. Before you leave that, does the statute which makes it an offense to purchase I. D. property from an Indian extend to the Indian himself selling it ? Mr. Thackeey. I am not sure about that. Mr. Bentley. No; it does not. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1705 Eepresentative Btjrke. Then this Indian could not have been prosecuted ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. He was an adopted Indian and, to every practical purpose, a white man, and I believe he should be required to return the mules. Eepresentative Burke. There is no question about that. The Chairman. Page 180 of your ledger, the following checks to Wah-pah-no-kah: Check No. 1079, $25; No. 1057, $20; No. 1048, $40; No. 1088, $40.10; and No. 922, $69.40. It appears that these were indorsed by mark, but that there was no witness to the mark. Senator Lane. Here is check No. 1079. I have been picking some of these out. Here is a check drawn in favor of Wah-pah-no-kah with no witness to his mark. Is that all right ? Is that proper ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; it is not proper. Senator Lane. That is not the only one; I notice a number pay- able to Wah-pah-no-kah. There are five of those, and there is no sign there that Wah-pah-no-kah ever received that money, and there is no evidence that he knew anything about that transaction. Mr. Thackery. It is true that none of those are witnessed. How- ever, they are all marked paid by the bank and the bank would be responsible to me if the payment is improperly made. Senator Lane. Yes, but you are responsible to the Indian and to us ? Mr. Thackery. I drew this check payable to the order of this Indian and gave it to her, and it bears not only the stamp of the bank showing that it was paid, but it has the puncture there in the check also, showing that it had been through the bank. Now, if it can be shown that the Indian did not get the money, the bank is responsible for it. Senator Lane. Yes, but it would be a rather difficult thing to show that. It ought to show on the check that the Indian did get the money. Mr. Thackery. Of course, I was located 2\ or 3 miles from town and I could not follow every Indian over there. Senator Lane. No, but you could make a request of the bank that they have these signatures verified % Mr. Thackery. Well, we did that, but in a case where there are so many checks Senator Lane. There are not any large sums; I think the highest is $69, but there is nothing on the check that shows that that Indian ever received the money, or what it was given to him for. What did he buy with this, do you suppose ? What was this issued for ? Mr. Thackery. I could not tell at this time. Senator Lane. What do you suppose? Mr. Thackery. They were used for her provisions and support. I think this woman — her husband built a house on her husband's allotment. Senator Lane. Were these payments on a house? Mr. Thackery. I know that payments out of this particular fund helped to build a house. The indorsement on these checks is in the handwriting of an officer of the Shawnee National Bank, which can be easily established. . Senator Lane. If they had purchased any groceries they would have received a bill for it, would they not ? Did you not have bills turned into you % 1706 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Thackert. No, sir; we did not go that far with it. I could not assume so much responsibility as that in connection with the other work which I had'. Senator Lane. Are these all made out in your handwriting? Mr. Thackert. The face of them ? Senator Lane. Yes. Mr. Thackery. Most of them are. Senator Lane. Did you have a clerk to help you ? Mr. Thackery. Not in this particular matter, with the exception, perhaps, of a very few occasions. Senator Lane. How many checks are there in all here in your trusteeship ? Mr. Thackery. I should say 1,500 or 2,000. Senator Lane. Running over a period of how many months? Mr. Thackery. Possibly two years. Senator Lane. That would not entail a great deal of clerical work. To keep pretty close track of that number of checks would not tax a man's time very greatly ? Mr. Thackery. If you are going to go into every little item the Indian wanted to purchase, it would take a great deal of time, espe- cially when we were already burdened with all the work we could do. Senator Lane. Would you pay this to the Indian after he had made a purchase of groceries or give him the money to make a purchase with ? Mr. Thackery. Where an Indian was going to buy groceries, we asked them as they came in for their money, "What do you want it for?" and if it was a matter of groceries or household supplies we gave them a check without saying much more about it. Senator Lane. Had you ever thought of the idea of giving him an order on the grocer, stating that it would be good for a certain amount at any grocery store, and having that returned to you O. K.'d? Mr. Thackery. I did not think then and I do not think now that chat would have been advisable, because that would have subjected us to charges of favoritism. If we gave it to the Indian Senator Lane. I said, to any store. Mr. Thackery. I understand, but it would not have mattered what store we would have given that on, we would have been charged with favoritism. Senator Lane. That is not a fair answer to my question. Mr. Thackery. You are asking if this thing occurred to me. It did occur to me, but it was not followed for the reasons which I am trying to give. In handling small amounts of money I suppose the Indian acquires a business experience or education, and I do not think that he can be placed upon his own responsibility if you are going to follow him up and see to every little bit of expenditure. Perhaps it may be that being cheated once in a while will be the best experience that can come to him. Senator Lane. He has been cheated consistently for a long time, and he ought to be an experienced business man by this time if that is true. Now then, did you, on the other hand, make any request of the grocers or the Indians that the receipted bills be returned to you for a voucher in any case ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1701 Senator Lane. You gave him a check, and then he went to the bank and drew the money, did he ? Mr. Thackery. Not in all cases. Senator Lane. I find mostly that he did, though, did he not? Mr. Thaokery. No, sir; not most of them. Senator Lane. Do you find many of the grocers' indorsements, and other business men's indorsements on these checks ? Mr. Thackery. A good many of them; yes, sir. Senator Lane. Very many 1 Mr. Thackery. A large number; yes, sir. The Chairman. About what proportion, would you suppose ? Mr. Thackery. I should say three-fourths of them bear the in- dorsements of merchants or farmers. Senator Lane. I had not noticed that. Mr. Thackery. The ones you have there are the ones the examin-. ing committee took exception to. Every one you are speaking of is noted on this list. . The Chairman. Those are the checks I have just been asking about. Representative Burke. In connection with this Indian, Wah-. pah-no-kah, was there a guardianship in this case 1 Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Representative Burke. She was one of the homeless Indians. The other Indians contributed the amount shown. Has Wah-pah^ no-kah or anybody for her ever made any claim to you that she did not receive the money represented by these checks ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; none of them have. I have been away from there for two years and a half, and Supt. Bun tin, who is present,, has had charge of that. I should be glad if the committee would inquire of him. Representative Burke. I will ask the other gentleman, then, whether or not this Indian has made any claim or representation that she did not receive the money that that check represented ? Mr. Buntin. She has not to me. The Chairman. Did you ever hear her say anything about the checks ? Mr. Buntin. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you know of your own knowledge whether such checks were ever issued or not ? Mr. Buntin. No, sir; I do not. Senator Townsend. Did these Indians know what was coming to them ? Mr. Buntin. I believe they did. A number of them have talked to me about it. Senator Townsend. Do you think that the Indians universally knew how much money was due them out of this trustee fund ? Mr. Buntin. A number of them have told me the amount that was due them. , Representative Stephens. Do you know this woman, Wan-pan- no-kah? ■■. Mr. Buntin. No, sir. Representative Carter. Mr. Thackery, I want to ask you a ques-, tion about the payment of these checks. How far did you say your agency was from the bank ? 1708 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Thackery. About two miles and a half. Representative Carter. You gave the check to the Indian, as a rule, and he took it to some other person to be cashed ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Carter. You only cashed the small checks where you gave the Indian money for his immediate use ? Or did you do that ? Mr. Thackery. We cashed a few at the office at the request and for the convenience of the Indian, but they were in all cases, so far as I recall now, small checks. We did not carry much cash on hand. Representative Carter. You told the Shawnee National Bank, on which these checks were drawn, that you wanted the Indian to have his mark witnessed, did you ? Mr. Thackery. Oh, yes; we called their attention to that in a number of cases. I know in the first few bank statements that came back there were a few that I did not consider properly witnessed, and I returned them to the bank and called their attention to it, and told them that they must assume the responsibility in those cases. These others that came back came at a later day, and they have not been reviewed by me until this examination. Representative Carter. What was done when you returned them ? What do you mean by turning them back ? Mr. Thackery. I asked the bank officer who had signed the Indian's name on the back to put his name with it as a witness. I did that in a few cases. Representative Carter. But he has not done it in these cases. Mr. Thackery. These have not been called to his attention, I suppose. Representative Carter. When did you first notice that these were not properly indorsed ? Mr. Thackery. Two or three days ago, when Mr. Keating, Mr. Williams, and Mr. Murphy here in this room were examining them. Representative Carter. I find one check here for $100 to Wah- pah-no-kah that has not any indorsement on it at all, and it is pay- able to order. Mr. Thackery. Yes; it has the stamp of the bank on the face, marked "Paid." Representative Carter. It has the stamp of the bank, but they did not have it properly indorsed. You disclaim any responsibility for the bank doing that ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; the bank is responsible to me for the wrong payment of the money. Senator Lane. I notice here the case of Ah-ten-y-teck. Do you know such an Indian ? Mr. Thackery. Yes. Senator Lane. Is that his name ? Mr. Thackery. Yes. _ Senator Lane. A check is paid to him. In many cases he has signed by mark with a pen, and in a large number of others he has signed his own name. Mr. Thackery. You will find that in several cases. He can sign his own name. Senator Lane. Why should he not do so at all times ? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1709 ■^ Thackeey Just because he prefers not to if he cashes his check with somebody that does not know that he can sign it. Senator Lane, Who was W. F. Dickens ? Mr. ThackeeT. He was a clerk in the office. Senator Lane. Your office ? Mr. Thackeet. Yes sir. Senator Townsend. Did every one of these Indians understand how much money was coming to them ? _ Mr. Thackeet. You mean, did they understand the amount com- ing to them m each case ? Yes, they did. Senator Townsend. And do they now ? Mr. Thackeet. Yes, they understood the amount that was coming to them, and almost every time when they came in to get a check they would ask how much they had left'. Senator Townsend. They would not know ? ; Mr. Thackeet. They would not know accurately, no. They would have a sort of way of keeping track of an account, mostly by memory. They can not read or write. Senator Townsend. But there was an opportunity to defraud Indians who did not know how much money they had and kept no track of what they had due them? Mr. Thackeet. There was. Senator Townsend. Then it was of the utmost importance that every possible check should be employed, was it not ? Mr. Thackeet. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Now, here are some checks that have not been indorsed, checks that have not been witnessed . where the signature was bymark, checks that the bank's "paid " stamp is not on. It would be possible, would it not, for those checks to have been issued by you and payments never made to the Indians at all; and unless they were able to prove that they had not received the money, or not knowing that they had the money coming, should never make any attempt to prove it, they would be defrauded out of their money? Mr. Thackert. That would be possible ; yes, sir. But I call your attention to the fact that the number of checks and the amounts represented in those checks to which any exception has been taken are very small compared with the whole account. They represent comparatively a very small part of the total, and in the cases you speak of where some of the checks are not stamped paid by the bank the indorsement of the bank is witnessed by the cashier of the bank, and it is evident that his failure to stamp it paid was simply an over- sight. Senator Townsend. Even in that case it might have been paid to the wrong man. Mr. Thackeet. There is always that possibility in any of our financial dealings with the Indians. Senator Townsend. I see that, and that is what impresses me very strongly with the need of every possible check in order to dis- close whether this money was properly distributed. Mr. Thackeet. You understand, I think, that I realized that in the beginning. In the first place, I did not want to assume the trusteeship, and at the council which decided who was to receive this money and dispose of it for the Indians — at which council there were present Inspector McLaughlin, of the Interior Department, and Gen. 1710 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Hugh L. Scott, of the Army — we all tried to get those Indians, the Oklahoma Indians, to name Secretary Garfield, then Secretary of the Interior, as their trustee; and they objected to that because he was so far away, and insisted that some one at Shawnee should have their money where they could go and get it as they needed it without delay. Then, after it was decided by unanimous vote of those people that I should be trustee for those in Oklahoma, I came here to Washington and executed an official bond to cover this total amount, and asked for its approval ; but the act of Congress had been so worded that the comptroller held that that could not be done. Senator Townsend. I understand that. Now, supposing some lawyer, some claim agent, or somebody else goes out among those Indians, and makes out some pretty good cases to the effect that they have not received their money, what protection have you ? Mr. Thackery. I have all of these vouchers, these canceled checks, and the bank statements, showing that it was paid in accordance with this act of Congress. Senator Townsend. Have you settled with the banks ? Mr. Thackery. Not entirely; no. Senator Townsend. Have you statements from the banks stating they have, paid all these sums representing these checks here ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Do you think the bank would be responsible to the Indian, then, on these checks % Mr. Thackery. The bank would have to be responsible for any wrong payment on any check which bears their stamp. Senator Townsend. But those which do not bear their stamp — ^- Mr. Thackery. In those cases I presume I am responsible as trustee, but the amount in those cases would not be over $200 or $300 at the outside. Senator Lane. How did the Indians make their marks in signing by mark % Mr. Thackery. At that time the practice was simply to touch the pen. Senator Lane. Merely touch the pen ? Mr. Thackery. The person signing their name would write it, and then put the X there, and hold the pen there while they touched it. Senator Lane. The Indian would not make the cross at all? Mr. Thackery. He did not actually make the cross. Senator Lane. I noticed that. These marks are made, the major- ity of them, by one person. Senator Townsend. I do not know what the law is there, but with us the law is that anybody can authorize another to sign his name. If that can be shown Senator Lane. But it would have to be shown in each individual case. The Chairman. There are a few more checks here that you have not been specifically asked about. Check No. 477 for $36.80', page 180, was given to Ke-nah-ke-the-quah. (After examining the check.) That does not appear to have been indorsed by the Indian at all, but is indorsed by James H. Wood. Do you know him % Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I do not know him. The check stub in that case shows it was for a sewing machine. KICKAFOO INDIANS. 1711 The Chairman. Now, page 162 of your record, check No. 859 for $199.50, to Nah-mah-go-the. That is indorsed by mark, and the mark is not witnessed. [After examining the check.] That appears stamped paid by the bank, October 14, 1908, but the mark of the payee is not witnessed. You have no personal knowledge of that transaction other than stated ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I know that the Indian could not sign his name. The Chairman. You know him, do you ? Mr. Thackery. Yes. The Chairman. Do you know what that was for? Mr .Thackery. No, sir; I do not. He was a nonresident Indian who lived at the Kiowa and Comanche Agency. He was one of the homeless Indians that the other Indians took care of. I only knew him slightly. He made a trip over there on that occasion and drew the balance of his money. I do not know what it was for. He went back home with it. The Chairman. The following checks were drawn to Me-she-kah- tah-no: No. 1045, $100; No. 1032, $50; No. 920, $200; making in all $350. All those checks appear to have been indorsed by mark and the mark not witnessed. Do you know who actually indorsed that, Mr. Thackery ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I do not. The Chairman. Do you know whose writing that is in the indorse- ment ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The Chairman. Or this check, No. 1032 ? Mr. Thackery. I could not be sure. I am reasonably sure it is a man named Askew, assistant cashier in the Shawnee National Bank. The Chairman. Are they both apparently indorsed by the same person ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. There is one more yet, and that, apparently, is indorsed in the same way by the same person ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; they are all marked "paid" by the bank. As to why they were not witnessed, I do not know. The Chairman. In the account of Tah-nah-ke-ah, page 148, it appears that there was an error there of $50. Is that in your favor or in the Indian's favor ? Mr. Thackery. Mine. The Chairman. Do you know how that happened ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; excepting that it must have been a mis- take in addition. Senator Lane. What was the total amount of his account? Mr. Thackery. $1,198.24. The Chairman. Now, in your ledger accounts it appears that two items have been disclosed where mistakes were made in your favor and two other items where the mistakes were in the Indians' favor. Did you undertake to verify the computations as to these accounts ? What verification did you make of them ? Mr. Thackery. They have not been added on a machine until the accounting a few days ago. The additions previous to that had just been by running up the column personally. There were four mistakes found in the 85 or 90 accounts. 1712 KICKAPOO INDIANS. The Chairman. Where these checks were issued by you, what precautions, if any, did you take to see that the Indian actually received the money or the benefit of the check ? Did you undertake to follow the check or the money into the hands of the Indians and see what they did with it ? Mr. Thackery. As to the larger amounts, yes, we did do all we could to see that it went to a good purpose. If they were buying stock or implements of any considerable value we required the per- son from whom they were to purchase the goods either, in the case of stock, to bring it to the agency and we would send an employee out to inspect it, or, in the case of hardware, we would send some- body to look it over to see that the Indian got value for his money. In the case of improvements on their land, that was usually super- vised by one of the district farmers or other employees of the agency. We built some 15 or 20 houses. We also built a number of sheds and fences and other improvements of that character, all of which was supervised by some employee. Senator Lane. What would be the average cost of the houses ? Mr. Thackery. About $550 to $600, or something like that. They were mostly four-room houses, frame, usually having two porches at least, and they were finished with plaster. The Chairman. How often was your account as trustee balanced with the Shawnee National Bank ? Mr. Thackery. I do not think it was at any regular period. I remember asking for a balance several times, and I think they only furnished it at irregular periods. The Chairman. What investigation did you make to determine whether or not the bank was keeping a correct account, and whether or not the checks which you issued were actually being paid ? Mr. Thackery. I had a man named Grecian — Isaac Grecian — to go over the larger bank statements and check them up with my stubs and this book which I have here. The Chairman. Did he discover any of these checks that were not properly indorsed, or any of them that were not marked paid by the bank ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; he found a few of them. The Chairman. What did you do about that ? Mr. Thackery. We called the attention of the bank to it. I do not remember discovering any that had not been stamped paid, but I. do remember we discovered a few that had not been properly wit- nessed on the back. The Chairman. What did you do about that ? Mr. Thackery. We took them over to the bank and asked them, Whoever had written the Indian's name to witness it. Senator Lane. Was it not your more important duty to look out for that portion of the check wherein the Indian's signature was attached to it, rather than to the bank's statement ? Mr. Thackery. We called the Indians in and asked them, in many cases, Senator, and the check was there, and they had received the money. Senator Lane. It would seem to me that as a trustee for the Indian it would be your duty to protect him even against the bank, if it was necessary. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 17 IS Mr. Thackery. Certainly. Senator Lane. And even though the mark of the bank showed that they had paid it, if it was not properly indorsed, would immediately put you to work finding out how the Indians had been represented in the matter. Mr. Thackery. We inquired of the Indian in any case where there was any question of that kind. Senator Lane. I think you have stated here that the stamp of the bank that it had been paid and the fact that it had been filed was sufficient evidence to you Mr. Thackery. No, I did not intend you to understand me that way. What I intended to say about that was that the stamp of the bank made the bank responsible to me or to the Indian if a mistake could later be shown. Senator Lane. If it could be shown, but it would be very hard to show that at this time, would it not ? You have a large number now. Mr. Thackery. It is not a large number, Senator Senator Lane. Y.ou have a large number where the name has not been properly certified ? Mr. Thackery. I do not consider it a large number in comparison with 2,000 checks. I consider it very small. There are not over 10 or 15 at the outside, to which any exception is made. The Chairman. You are mistaken about that. Mr. Thackery. The list shows Representative Burke. You mean 10 or 15 Indians? Mr. Thackery. Ten or fifteen accounts. The Chairman. There are more than that. There are 25 accounts, and some of those accounts cover as many as five checks that are exceptsd to. Some of them have only one that is questioned. Mr. Thackery. Some of those, however, show overdrafts. There are a couple of them. The Chairman. Yes, there are two overdrafts, as I pointed out before ; two mistakes in favor of the Indians and two against them. Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What I want to find out is, when you discovered that a check you had given one of these Indians had not been prop- erly indorsed, what action did you take to find out why the Indian had received the money ? Mr. Thackery. We inquired of the Indian about it, and then talked with the bank also. The Chairman. Do you remember the explanation that was offered as to any of these checks? Mr. Thackery. I remember that in no case did I find that the Indian had not received the money named in the check. The Chairman. And when that fact was ascertained, that the bank was paying money illegally and their attention was called to the error they had made, was it not then corrected ? Mr. Thackery. It was done in the cases we called their attention to. These checks come in after this. The Chairman. Notwithstanding you had raised this question as to the propriety of the manner in which they were paying these checks, after that the checks which we have called your attention to here were paid ? 1714 KIOKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. There were some 8 or 10 employees in this particular bank, and these mistakes you call my attention to The Chairman (interposing). Did you find any instance where the check was cashed and the Indian only received a part of the money ? Mr. Thackery. I do not recall any case of that kind. The Chairman. By way of illustration, I will state that at some banks elsewhere the custom appears to be quite general of taking an Indian's note for, say, S100, and giving him actually $50, or taking his check for $200, and paying him actually $100; that is a practice that is quite common at some banks, not, however, so far as I know, any bank that you had dealings with. Did you find any case of that sort? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; not in that way. The Chairman. It seems to be a systematic method of dealing with the Indians. Representative Burke. That is, that the Indian brings his check to the bank and the bank gives the Indian the note ? The Chairman. No; if the Indian takes a check to the bank to get it cashed, if the amount of the Indian's check is $100, the bank cashes it and gives the Indian $50; if the Indian borrows $100 from the bank, he gives a note for $200, and pays interest to the bank at 10 per cent, or 4 per cent in excess of the legal rate, and sometimes the interest is taken out in advance. Representative Burke. That is a revelation to me ; I did not know anything of that kind was transpiring. The Chairman. Nevertheless, it apparently happened at certain banks in Oklahoma; however, not at the Shawnee National Bank. Representative Burke. Mr. Thackery, I assume that the checks that you issued to these Indians, as a rule, were presented to the bank upon which they were drawn within a very short time after the check was issued, were they not ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. So that when you received a statement with canceled checks, you would receive practically all of the checks that had been issued up to that time. Mr. Thackery. Practically all, yes; there were a few exceptions. Representative Burke. You seem to have your checks here, nearly all of them, and have them in very good order. Where are the state- ments that the bank made you when they returned canceled checks from time to time ? Mr. Thackery. They are either at Shawnee, Okla., or at Sacaton, Ariz. Representative Burke. Can you produce those statements ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I shall get them and send them to this commission at once. Representative Burke. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that unless those statements are produced that the bank be called upon to furnish a statement from his account. Mr. Thackery. They can do that. Representative Burke. It is a matter that can very easily be checked up. Mr. Thackery. Before leaving Shawnee they were turned over to this Mr. Crecian, whom I mentioned, to go over the account and check KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1715 them all up, but whether or not he gave them back to me and whether 1 took them with me to Arizona or not I do not know. But I do know that in telegraphing for every account to be sent on, I supposed they would send all they could find, but those are not included with those that came. Representative Stephens. Did you transfer your account from Shawnee, Okla., to Sacaton, Ariz., your trust account that you speak of ? Mr. Thackery. Yes. There is only a small amount left, however. Representative Stephens. About what balance was it that you transferred ? Mr. Thackery. I do not remember exactly; I will have to look that up. Representative Stephens. Have you paid out any funds since you came to Sacaton ? Mr. Thackery. Not on this trust fund. Representative Stephens. Have any of these Indians whose checks seemed to be irregular ever demanded payment of you ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Representative Stephens (addressing Mr. Buntin). Has any de- mand been made upon you for any of these checks which seemed to have been irregular ? Mr. Btjntin. Only one Indian ever questioned that. Representative Stephens. Who was that? Mr. Btjntin. Wah-sko-tah, who had been married, and who was the widow of Wah-squah-ko. Representative Stephens. How much was that amount in ques- tion? Mr. Buntin. Wah-squah-ko was killed by the train, the woman's first husband, and she came down with her husband and claimed that he did not believe that the full amount had been received. He did not know, he said, because the man was killed by the train, and they wanted me to make inquiry whether or not Mr. Thackery had paid the full amount before he was killed, as they did not know. That is the only one they ever questioned. Representative Stephens. Did you make the inquiry ? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir; I made the inquiry. Representative Stephens. What did you ascertain about it? Mr. Buntin. Well, the information was that the account had been paid in full. Representative Stephens. How did you get that information? Mr. Buntin. From Mr. Thackery. I just took it up with Mr. Thackery and made inquiry of him, and then I have gone over his books to see and to notice the checks. This inquiry was recently made. Representative Stephens. Then what report did you make to the Indian ? Mr. Buntin. I have not made the Indian any report. It has hot been six weeks since the check was called in question. Representative Stephens. What was the amount involved? Mr. Buntin. The Indians told me that they knew that they had received $600, and did not know whether any more had been received or not or had ever been paid to the man before he was killed. Representative Stephens. Something like $600 ? 1716 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Buntin. Something like that. They did not know for sure, and wanted to know whether he had got all his money before he was killed. That is the only account they ever called in question. The Chairman. Is there any objection to this statement going into the record ? Representative Stephens. I think not. The Chairman. Here is a condensed statement of the items that have been criticized. Mr. Thackery. I have no objections. Representative Stephens. It is the matter we have been investi- gating all day. (The statement here submitted by the chairman is as follows:) MEXICAN KICKAPOOS — EXCEPTIONS TO THACKEHY's ACCOUNT. Page. 4. Much-e-ne-ne, check No. 226, July 11, 1908, $51.75 missing. 8. Wah-pe-ke-che, short on account $25. 18. Wah-sko-tak, $50 overpaid. 38. Stephen Mohawk, check No. 235, $300, not legally indorsed. 38. Stephen Mohawk, check 486, $33.19, payee's name indorsed by another person. 38. Stephen Mohawk, check No. 550, $224.65, payee's name indorsed by another person. 38. Stephen Mohawk, check No. 779, $25, payee's name indorsed by another person. 42. Peah-puck-o-he, check No. 409, $52.19, no witness to indorsement. 60. Mack Johnson, check No. 221, $21, check missing. 64. John Snake, November 27, 1909, $161.09, cash payment. 6. Mo-sha-she, check No. 993, $50, not marked paid by bank drawn on. 6. Mo-sha-she, check No. 610, $175, not marked paid by bank drawn on. 68. Tah-pah-she, overpaid $10. 70. Na-mah-che-tha-quah, check No. 1137, $25, missing. 70. Na-mah-che-tha-quah, check (no number), $25, missing. 74. Me-thup-pe-hahm, check No. 992, $30, witnessed by person supposed to be cashier and not marked "paid " by the bank on which it is drawn. 88. Ke-check-ko-thah, check No. 1052, $20, not marked "paid" by the bank. 100. Mah-ka-tah-ko-thah, checks 1135 for $20, 1136 for $10, 39 for $15, 1140 for $10, and 1141 for $95, all missing. 112. Mah-squah-ko, check No. 1068, $100, not marked "paid" by bank. 142. Mack Downs, check No. 881, $100, to correct error, can not find how error occurred. 150. Py-ah-tho, check No. 712, $2.50, missing. 150. Py-ah-tho, check No. 711, $40, no witness to indorsement by mark. 134. Millie Stevens, check No. 826, $150, not marked "paid" by bank. 160. Andrew Whipple, balance on hand in his favor of $250. 170. Joseph Murdock, check No. 717, $6.90, missing. 180. Wah-pah-no-kah, checks 1079 for $25, 1057 for $20, 1048 for $40, 1088 for $40.10, 992 for $69.40; no witness to mark indorsement. 180. Ke-mah-ko-the, check 945, $100, no indorsement. 180. Ke-mah-ko-the, check 477, $36.80, no indorsement. Indorsement by Jas. H. Wood. Thackery does not know Wood. 162. Nah-mah-go-the, check 859, $199.50, no witness to marked indorsement. 176. Me-she-kah-tah-no, check 1045, $100, no witness. 176. Me-she-kah-tah-no, check 1032, $50, no witness. 176. Me-she-kah-tah-no, check 920, $200, no witness. 148. Tah-nah-ke-ah, $50 short. Senator Townsend. What steps did you take to find out whether that man had received all of his money or not ? Mr. Buntin. I took it up with Mr. Thackery to learn whether he had received all his money or not. Eepresentative Stephens. Was there a letter from Mr. Thackery that he had received all his money. KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1717 Mr. Buntin. Yes; and then I examined his account on his books there to see just how it had been paid out. Representative Stephens. Did you explain it to the Indian then ? Mr. Buntin. I have not, No; it was just recently the matter was taken up with me. The Chairman. Both Mr. Thackery and Mr. Buntin were to leave the city to-day. I would like to complete the examination of both of them before they go. Senator Lane. It is going to be a little difficult to do that. I notice check No. 235. Do you know who that was to— "Stephen Mohawk, for support, $300." That is what your stub shows. What do you mean by that ? Let us see the check. (At this point Mr. Thackery handed to Senator Lane a check.) It says, "Paid cash, $300, for Mohawk"— this is in lead pencil— and charged up to support. Mr. Thackery. I do not know definitely. I could not testify as to that now. As I have said, in some of these cases the Indian insisted on receiving cash, and under this law that appropriated this money he had undoubtedly a right to receive it that way, and I had not sufficient authority to compel them to spend it for purposes which I thought he ought to spend it. Senator Lane. Why did you mark it "paid for support" ? Mr. Thackery. Because he told me what that was for. He had been in Mexico for some time, and he had left bills here and there that had not been paid, and he wanted to pay up his bills here and there. Senator Lane. And you really did not know much about it when you paid him? Mr. Thackery. I had his word for it. I did not know much about, perhaps, just what he would use it for. Senator Lane. I was taking that as an indication. It means more to me than it would to some others, for the reason that I have handled such accounts as these myself, individual accounts, in large numbers, but I could not understand from such an indefinite explanation how the expenditure of the sum of $300 was made. There is not a voucher or a bill, or anything, to accompany it; no requisition and no O. K'd bill, but just a statement "for support" in lead pencil on the stub and the check indorsed by the Indian. You submit this as trustee of an incompetent person. I believe you stated these Indians were all incompetent, but I see they can write, and some are not so incompetent but what they can write. Senator Townsend. The trouble about that is, the law turned this money over to him to spend just as he pleased. Senator Lane. I know that Mr. Thackery. Not as I pleased, but as the Indians pleased. Senator Lane (continuing). But -the manner of keeping his ac- counts — he owed it to himself to keep them so he could explain them ; he owed that debt to himself; it was the greatest debt that he owed himself, greater than any other obligation of any other sort; and h<- Also owed it to the Congress. Under existing conditions, anybody can come in here maliciously, if they want, and accuse him of having used this money personally, and he can not disprove it. Mr. Thackery. Yes, I can, Senator. 35601— pt 13—14 11 1718 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Lane. You can do it with that check? The Chairman. These checks of Stephen Mohawk were not in- dorsed by him at all, although his name is on them. The writing was done by his wife, who was formerly Erne Douglass, who appeared to have signed all the checks of Stephen Mohawk. Mr. Thackery. Not all of them. The Chairman. That have been questioned here? Mr. Thackery. Yes. The Chairman. And there are three of them, if I remember cor- rectly. On the first she signed his name and then hers; and on the other two, she signed his name. Senator Lane. These are questioned, you know, Mr. Thackery. There has been a question raised concerning them, and so we are entitled to an explanation of them, without prejudice. Mr. Thackery. My contention along that line, Senator, is this: That if this act of Congress had given me any authority at law where I could compel an Indian to spend his money for any particular pur- pose, then I would have had some authority on which to stand, and made a better showing, but under that law the Indian could come in and demand his money, and I was compelled to give it to him or stand a personal suit. Senator Lane. Is that true under the law? Senator Townsend. The law provides Senator Lane. The law did not compel that Indian to give him a receipt ? Representative Stephens. This was a special act. Senator Lane. He has a right to demand a receipt under any law. The Chairman. There can be no question about his right to take a voucher in any reasonable form desired. Senator Townsend. He is only liable as to whether he did pay this money over to them or not. If it can be shown that he did not do it, he is liable for it. Senator Lane. Nobody was trying to make him liable. I was trying to get an intelligent synopsis of these expenditures, so that we might report upon them. I notice here in check stub No. 516, which is stated to be a debt to the agent of Sac and Fox Agency. Who is 516 according to your book? Mr. Thackery. 516 in favor of Pen-e-she, $2.50. Senator Lane. What did he owe the agent of the Sac and Fox? Mr. Thackery. I could not tell you now. I do not recall. It is marked there debt to an agent Sac and Fox. Senator Lane. Can an Indian become indebted to an agent? Mr. Thackery. This Pen-e-she lived at Sac and Fox for many years. He was married to a Sac and Fox Indian, and I do not recall now what the account was fort Possibly he was up there and the agent gave him $2.50 to get home with. Senator Lane. Did you get an order from the agent asking you to pay this, or from the Indian to pay ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; that check was made payable to the Indian. Senator Lane. Then, you do not know whether he paid his debt there or not ? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1719 Mr. Thackert. He probably indorsed the check and we sent the check to the agent. Senator Lane. You sent the check to the agent? Mr. Thackert. I will look it up. Senator Lane. Do you remember about 713 to Py-ah-tho ? Mr. 1 hackery. I remember about that one. Senator Lane. Who is Wilson? T i .^ r -, T 1 HA ? KE ^- , He was a special eye doctor in the city of Shawnee. I thmk he is still there. Senator Lane. Did you take a bill from him— a receipted bill? Mr. Thackert. That check is his receipt. It has his signature to it. Senator Lane. There is no bill there showing the number of treat- ments received, or anything of the kind. Mr. Thackert. Oh, no. This woman was nearly blind and he treated her eyes for quite a time. Senator Lane. Did he cure her? Mr. Thackert. I do not know. I do not recall about that. I think he did; certainly he helped her. Senator Lane. I have not had time to look these over; I have not had time to go through them. You want to get away to-night, do you? Mr. Thackert. To-night or to-morrow; and I wanted to go to-night. Senator Lane. There are quite a number of these checks, I noticed, made in favor of a man named Graham. Mr. Thackebt. There are none made payable to Graham; no. Senator Lane. He has indorsed them ? Mr. Thackert. Yes. Senator Lane. Who is Graham ? Mr. Thackert. He was a merchant. Senator Lane. What kind of business was he in ? Mr. Thackert. General merchandise. Senator Lane. Did he handle stock ? Mr. Thackert. Horses, do you mean, and cattle ? Senator Lane. Yes. Mr. Thackert. Yes; he handled some. Senator Lane. Did he sell a good many horses to the Indians ? Mr. Thackert. Well, not so very many. Senator Lane. There was complaint made that he had or seemed to have the bulk of the trade in that line with the Indians, and that he sold them horses for fully all that they were worth, and then later on would buy those horses back from the Indians for much less and sell them again to other Indians, the same horses passing through his hands a number of times ; that when the Indians got hard up they would sell them back to him. He sold them buggies and harness, too, did he not ? Mr. Thackery. He sold them some buggies and harness ; yes, sir. Senator Lane. Did you ever hear any complaint of that kind against his transactions ? Mr. Thackert. I do not recall of any with the Kickapoos. There were some with the Shawnees. There were a few cases where he took back the horses, but there were not very many such cases. 1720 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Lane. Was he in any way connected with the Indian Department, or any of the people working under him connected with it ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. He had been in the mercantile business at Sac and Fox a number of years before that, where he may have had connection with the Government, in that he was a licensed trader there, but at Shawnee he was not a licensed trader at all. Senator Lane. When you gave the Indian the money to purchase the horse and buggy and harness, he would come and tell you what he wanted, would he ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What did they usually cost them? What were horses worth down there, buggy hors s ? Mr. Thackery. A buggy hon-e? Senator Lane. Yes. Mr. Thackery. It depends entirely on the horse, Senator. You could buy a horse for $50, or you could pay $200 for buggy horte^. We usually paid an average price of, I should sslj, $250; in some cases we paid more than that. Senator Lane. For a horse ? Mr. Thackery. For a team. Senator Lane. About $125 apiece l Mr. Thackery. Yes. In some cases we paid as high as $350 for a farm team, but they were first-class horses. Senator Lane. Did you know cases where the Indian would buy a horse and buggy and harness, and then it would go right back into the hands of the dealer from whom he bought it, and then be sold to other Indians '( Mr. Thackery. Very few such cases. Senator Lane. You know of some such cases ? Mr. Thackery. None were taken back and sold over again. Senator Lane. Did you look over these horses yourself before they were purchased ? Mr. Thackery. Not all of them. Myself or some of the district farmers or other Government employees did so. Senator Lane. You thought they had good value for the money ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, air. There were only a few of those trans- actions by Mr. Graham, the man of whom you speak. The mer- chants or the farmers over the country sold more to the Indians than he did. They would buy direct from the farmers hi many cases. Senator Lane. I understood there were other traders there who complained that Graham had the bulk of the business in that respect. Mr. Thackery. They never complained to me. The only person who ever complained about that is Mr. Bentley, who is here. Senator Lane. Mr. Bentley, do you know anything about that? Mr. Bentley. I do not recall having done so. Senator Lane. Did you ever hear of any complaint being made ? Mr. Bentley. The dealers in Shawnee complained to me. Mr. Thackery. Which one ? Mr. Bentley. Cover in particular complained to me that his stock did not seem to meet the Kickapoo requirements ; that Graham might have something to do with it. There was a good deal of complaint to me. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1721 Senator Lane. Now, in the purchase of a horse, buggy, and harness they ought to pay about $350, you say ? Mr. Thackery. I suggested that an average price of a buggy team would be possibly $250. Senator Lane. In a caseof that kind, would you take a receipted bill from, the merchant, or voucher showing it, or some statement from him in writing that he had sold this to the Indian ? Mr. Thackery. I think we usually took a bill of sale to guarantee the Indian against mortgage on the team or anything of that kind. Senator Lane. But you did not take any voucher for this ? Mr. Thackery. The check itself is a receipt. Senator Lane. You depend entirely on the check — you say you depend entirely on these checks and what they show. Mr. Thackery. Not entirely, but largely. Senator Lane. And they show nothing. Mr. Thackery. They show in nearly every case the indorsement; that is the best receipt I know of. Senator Lane. It will be very hard to identify that. Senator Townsend. Mr. Thackery, did you give a bond to the department for the expenditure of all Indian funds that come into your hands? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Does not that bond require you to account for this money? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. I prepared this bond that you speak of covering expenditure of Indian funds, and asked to have it approved so that I might so account for the money, and the comptroller ren- dered a written decision that we could not do so. Senator Townsend. I want to ask you, now, again: Does not your bond, as a representative of the department out there, require you to account for all moneys that come into your hands belonging to the Indians ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. This was considered to be an exception at that time. There may be special acts of Congress which would be excepted from this bond. You say, does the bond require it ? Senator Townsend. Yes. Mr. Thackery. I am not sure about that. The regulations of the office, I think, require that we account for those moneys. I do not know just what the bond does require. Mr. Murphy, no doubt, could tell you. Senator Townsend. Do you believe that the bond that you give to the Government to account for all Indian moneys which come into your hands could not be construed to cover all moneys that were turned over to you for those Kickapoos ? Mr. Thackery. In this particular account, it could not, according to the written decision of the comptroller, which I understand prevails. Senator Townsend. It might not under the act, but under the general provisions of your bond, do you think your advice is to the effect that you could not be held accountable under that bond for this Kickapoo money? Mr. Thackery. I do not think I could. However, I am perfectly willing to be held. 1722 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Townsend. The reason I ask the question is because that is the most important thing with me in this investigation, whether after we have discovered all that we want to discover, it can be made a foundation for our report. Senator Lane. I want to ask you a question, Mr. Thackery: In spending money for the Indian, as regular agent— or supeiintendent, I believe they are now called — were you not in the habit and by the rules and regulations of the department compelled to take vouchers and make requisitions for all your expenditures and return them here, and make full accounting to the department ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir; we are required to make a full accounting, but in paying an Indian money, the office, I think, considers his indorsement on a check payable to his order as the best possible voucher. Senator Lane. And does not require you to keep any requisitions or vouchers or anything of that sort ? Mr. Thackery. It would require quite a little time to explain that, we handle so many different funds. If I was buying a team of horses for the use of the agency, we would call for bids first, and we would then prepare a voucher of the kind you refer to, and the successful bidder would sign that and he would receive a check in payment; and all those papers would be filed with our accounts. But if I were paying an Indian individual lease money from his account, say, we would issue him a check. Senator Lane. You would have a lease to show, would you not — a written lease of some sort, or would it be a verbal lease ? Mr. Thackery. Always a written lease. Senator Lane. There would always be a written lease as a voucher behind that check. In other words, for all the accounts of moneys you handle for the Government you have to give a close accounting, much closer than you did in the expenditure of these funds ? Mr. Thackery. I do not think so, no, not in all cases. The check itself is susually the method. For instance, in paying my salary, I do not sign any receipt excepting my indorsement on that check. Senator Lane. And that salary is a matter of record in the office, do you not see on the pay roll ? Mr. Thackery. Of course, the amount of money I receive here is of record for those Kickapoos, and papers are filed here which tell me to receive it. Senator Lane. Your salary is a certain amount payable on a cer- tain day of the month, but these are irregular payments. Mr. Thackery. I could have fully relieved myself, Senator, under this law by giving the Indian one check for the total amount. Senator Lane. You might have done so; you could have done that. You do not consider, then, that you were very tightly bound in the expenditure of that money, according to that? Mr. Thackery. I do; I am perfectly willing to be bound as tight as you want. Senator Lane. The explanations which you give us here imparts no information on which we can afford to spend time or detain you. I can not make much out of it, and it is unfortunate for this commis- sion to be placed in the position of having to report that this is KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1723 another one of the accounts which can not be investigated. I do not know how it could give it an intelligent investigation. Mr. Thackeey. If any one of those checks is questioned, you can go to the Indian to whom it was paid. Senator Lane. If there was a question here as to $50, I could go down and hunt up the Indian ? Mr. Thackeey. Suppose I had a voucher, you might question that. Senator Townsend. I can see the thing which Senator Lane has in mind, but still I can not see any delinquency on the part of Mr. Thackery, the way he did business, provided the money was actually paid to these Indians. Senator Lane. We have no way of establishing whether it was or not. You see here what the difference is. I do not know whether you people ever handled much of that kind of work. If you have a requisition first for an article, and then you have an O. K'd bill from someone, you can go back and trace down the identical article. Senator Townsend. Surely you can. Senator Lane. Which is corroborative, and it works out syste- matically, and it is the method by which they should handle accounts. Unless Mr. Thackery did that he did not properly protect himself. There are many cases which we do not understand, and he would be able to make an explanation of where he bought, say, two horses and a buggy, totaling $300. That is quite a respectable sum of money, and he should have had a receipted bill for that amount properly made out and O K'd and turned it in with his accounts; the bank should have had these signatures properly indorsed, and they did not do that. Mr. Thackery. They did it in a very large majority of cases. Senator Lane. In those cases in which they did not, it will be called in question, and for his own protection it is necessary that it should have been done. I am not saying that his accounts are in- correct, but I would not certify to any of them. Mr. Thackeey. I am not dodging responsibility for those checks that are not indorsed. The Chairman. Are there any further questions, Senator Lane ? Mr. Bentley. Mr. Chairman, before the committee adjourns, at the conclusion of the last hearing, Mr. Thackery The Chaieman. We want to take Mr. Buntin's testimony now. Mr. Bentley. I thought you were about to adjourn. The Chaieman. No; Mr. Buntin wants to go away, and I thought we might try to serve his convenience. Mr. Thackeey. May I make a statement of about 10 words? In answer to a question that you put soon after I took the stand the other night, I stated that there were 82 of these accounts; that is, that the total amount I received was divided into 82 parts. I should have said 85 parts. I just wanted to correct that m the record. There were 154 living allottees, of which I had 85, and Mr. Bentley had 72. The Chairman. Have you a list of those you had? Mr. Thackery. I have it in this book. The Chairman. Will you furnish it to us ? Mr. Thackeey. Yes, sir. (Not furnished.) 1724 KICKAPOO INDIANS. TESTIMONY OF JOHN A. BUNTIN. (The witre^ was duly sworn by the chairman.) The Chairman. What official position do you hold ? Mr. Buntin. Superintendent of the Shawnee Agency. The Chairman. How long have you served in that capacity ? Mr. Buntin. Since June 15, 1911. The Chairman. Are you familiar with the affairs of the Kickapoos ii t. present and their condition? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir; that is, the Oklahoma Kickapoos. The Chairman. Do you know about how many of them there are? Mr. Buntin. There are in Oklahoma, counting men, women, and children, about 170, who have been living there. The Chairman. Do they live in the immediate neighborhood of Shi wnee '( Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir. The center of population, I believe, is about 21 miles northwest of Shawnee. The Chairman. What is the principal occupation of these Indians, if any. Mr. Buntin. Funning. The Chairman. How many of them, would you say, are successful farmers '( Mr. Buntin. Successful' The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Buntin. As successful farmers there are only a few, probably half a dozen, who are supportingthemselves byfarming wholly through their efforts as farmers. The Chairman. What is the total number actually engaged in trying to farm/ Mr. Buntin. I believe there are about 44 men, among those that live in Oklahoma, and I believe that at least 35 of them have in a crop this year. The Chairman. What do they grow ? Mr. Buntin. They raise corn, cotton, alfalfa, kafir corn, milo maize, and then they raise a great many beans. The Chairman. How are they supported ? Mr. Buntin. They are supported from what they raise on their farms, and the lease money. The Chairman. Do all of them own allotments ? Mr. Buntin. Not all; nearly all of the adult Indians have allot- ments. The Chairman. What number of them have not allotments of adult Indians ? Mr. Buntin. There must be of living allottees about 80 at this time in Oklahoma. There are probably 204 Kickapoo allotments. A number of those are heirship allotments. The Chairman. How are those supported who do not farm and do not get lease money? Mr. Buntin. They are supported by the other Indians. The Chairman. Do you pay out their lease money? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How do you handle that fund ? Mr. Buntin. We usually have the payments made semiainnually, and immediately after collecting them disbmse it to the Indian. KICKAPOC) INDIANS. 1725 The Chairman. How do you disburse it« Mr. Buntin. By check. The Chairman. To the Indian himself? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir. wante toT IRMAN ' IS he permitted t0 s P end ^ in a »Y way that he Mr. Buntin The lease money is usually disbursed to those who are competent without supervision; that gives him a right to spend it as The Chairman. Those that are not competent* Mr .Buntin Those that are not competent we endeavor to super- vise then 1 purchases. r The Chairman. How many of them have you among these Kick- apoos ? & Mr. Buntin. There are probably one-third of them that we class as incompetent to handle then- money received from rentals in lump sum without supervision. The Chairman. What is the condition of these Indians with refer- ence to education ? Mr. Buntin. Their education is very limited. The Chairman. How many of them, would you say, can read and write ? Mr. Buntin. Out of the 170, 1 would estimate that 40 probably can read and write. The Chairman. What school facilities are provided for the children of these Indians ? Mr. Buntin. We have the Shawnee School. The Chairman. Is that an Indian school? Mr. Buntin. That is the Shawnee Indian Boarding and Training School. Then they have access to the nonreservation schools. The Chairman. Do you know how many of the Kickapoo children are in school ? Mr. Buntin. I do not know the exact number, but I will estimate that there are in the Shawnee schools between 20 and 25. The Chairman. What is the total number of school population of the Kickapoos in Oklahoma? Mr. Buntin. I believe there must be between 30 and 35 children there; that is, eligible to school. The Chairman. Something over half of them are then actually attending school. Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What progress do they make, in general ? Mr. Buntin. They are getting along very well. The Chairman. Did you receive any part of this trust fund from Mr. Thackery? Mr. Buntin. The only part that I have knowledge of receiving was some he turned over to Annie Hale, and Annie made a voluntary deposit. The Chairman. What do you mean by "voluntary deposit"? Mr. Buntin. In this way, an Indian can make a voluntary deposit at any time he wants to at the agency. I received Mr. Thackery's money in a lump sum, approximately $65,000. The Chairman. That was when his account as superintendent was closed ? 1726 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mi-. Buntin. Yes, sir; had any of this money been turned in to him to be paid out, but as a turn-back, as a deposit, it might have been taken up as individual Indian money and I might have received it in that way. The Chairman. And you would not be able to segregate the trust funds that came into your hands in that way; it would not be in trust, except in your hands as superintendent ? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You never undertook to handle any fund, then, as trustee ? Mr. Buntin. Not as trustee. The Chairman. In the sense that Thackery handled it? Mr. Buntin. None as trustee. This check I received from Annie Hale was sent to her through me by Thackery to settle her account in full. She was a pupil in an Indian school, and I advised her she did not need that much money at that time. The Chairman. How much was it? Mr. Buntin. Between $500 and $600. She voluntarily turned the check over to me and made a deposit and has since used the larger part of it in equipping herself with household goods. The Chairman. Do you know how much she has on hand? Mr. Buntin. My recollection is she has between $100 and $140. The Chairman. What do you say with reference to whether these Indians are progressing or going backward? Mr. Buntin. They are progressing at this time. The Chairman. What are the evidences of their progress? Mr. Buntin. They are increasing their farm operations very noticeably, and getting on a much nearer self-supporting basis than before. Many of the Kickapoos who have heretofore refused to allow their children to go to school, who have strictly opposed school, have brought their children down since I have been there and put them in, and a number of them have insisted on not letting them go home too much, and they have taken up farming, and many of them have planted cropi. Under the authority of the Indian Office I have been selling them hogs on payments. They take them, handle them very well, and make prompt payment. The same way with alfalfa seed, and there is an unu«ual di c play of interest in their farm operations. The Chairman. You said, during the examination of Mr. Thackery, if I understood you, that you thought practically all of these Indians knew how much of this trust fund was due to them in the beginning. Upon what do you base that statement? How do you know they did? Mr. Buntin. A number of them came in, and in talking over their business I asked them how much of that money they got. This has been a question very much discussed, for the' reason that those in Mexico denied receiving their part, and a number of them have told me the amounts that they were to receive, and that they had received. The Chairman. Do you account to the department for these funds which you receive and deposit for individual Indians? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Mr. Thackery, I believe you have already stated that you did not make any accounting to the department in regard to this trust fund. Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I did not. KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1727 The Chairman. That the comptroller held that you could not do so. Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. I would like to ask if Mr. Thackery has struck off a balance here and submitted it to us. Mr. Thackery. The committee, I believe, that examined the account did, Senator. Senator Lane. What committee ? Mr. Thackery. The clerks of this commission. The Chairman. The clerks of the commission and the accountant from the bureau. I did not understand that they undertook to bal- ance your account. Mr. Keating (secretary to the commission). No, sir; we did not. Mr. Thackery. Mr. Murphy had the account. The Chairman. What was this $11,802.73? Mr. Murphy. That is the corrected amount, as shown by the ledger, that was transferred to the guardianship account. Mr. Thackery. In cash ? Mr. Murphy. Yes; that is not supported by checks payable to the Indians. The Chairman. They were accounted for through the court, these funds? * Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is the total amount of funds you have on hand now for the benefit of the Kickapoos as superintendent? Mr. Buntin. I could not answer that question. The Chairman. Do you know about how much ? Mr. Buntin. For the benefit of the Kickapoos, without supervi- sion — I have individual Indian money, about $55,000, in my account, and a large majority of that belongs to the Kickapoos. The Chairman. Where do you keep it ? Mr. Buntin. That money is held in the Shawnee National Bank, the First National Bank of Tecumseh, and the Treasury of the United States. The Chairman. Do they pay interest on it ? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir; the two banks — they do. The Chairman. How much ? Mr. Buntin. Four per cent on daily balances. The Chairman. Who gets the benefit of that interest ? Mr. Buntin. The Indians. The Chairman. Did the banks, Mr. Thackery, pay interest on this trust fund ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I explained that in the record. They Said me about $600 interest before it was transferred into the guar- ian account. The Chairman. And that represents your compensation in the matter ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; and expense. The Chairman. What about the balance of $11,000 and something that was disbursed through the guardianship account ? Mr. Thackery. The interest on that went to the Indians. The Chairman. Went to the Indians ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And that was all accounted for in your settlements with the courts ? 1728 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mi". Thackeby. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Mr. Bun tin, what is the condition of health of these Indians? • Mr. Buntin. They are in very good health, better than the average Indian. Representative Stephens. About how many have trachoma or eye trouble ? Mr. Buntin. I will estimate Representative Stephens. What per cent ? Mr. Buntin. I will estimate that not less than 25 per cent on the Shawnee Agency, including Kickapoos, have trachoma. Senator Lane. Are they young people and children ? Mr. Buntin. They average that. Representative Stephens. Is it increasing or decreasing? Mr. Buntin. I do not believe it is on the increase any — about a standstill. Representative Stephens. Do they keep it out of the school? Mr. Buntin. We keep it pretty well out of the school. If we get a case we treat the case. Representative Stephens. Have you boarding schools ? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. Do you keep those infected with tra- choma separated from the other students ? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir; as soon as one comes in with trachoma, it is immediately treated for the trachoma, and it is segregated from the others until it gets in condition where it would be safe, and then they have to wash under a stream of water and have individual towels. Representative Stephens. About how many students have you in this boarding school ? Mr. Buntin. The capacity of the school is 110, and it is usually just about full. Representative Stephens. How is it that you only have 25 pupils in the school ? Mr. Buntin. I said 25 per cent is my estimate. I will explain that. This is the Kickapoos. And now, we have the Shawnees and then we have the Pottawatomies. They come from these other tribes. Senator Lane. About how many Pottawatomies ? Mr. Buntin. The Shawnees were originally, I think, about 600. They were allotted 556, and Pottawatomies probably 900. Senator Lane. All under jour charge ? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir. Representative Stephens. About how many Kickapoos are under your charge in the boarding school? Mr. Buntin. Between 20 and 25. Representative Stephens. Then have you day schools ? Mr. Buntin. There are just public schools, but no Indian day schools. We have mission schools which take a number of Potta- watomies. Representative Stephens. Is the Government paying for that? Mr. Buntin. No, sir. Representative Stephens. About how many have you in the day schools of the Pottawatomies and others -under your charge? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1729 Mr. Buntin. The large majority of the Pottawatomies are in public schools. Representative Stephens. The public schools of the State ? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir; they are considerably mixed with the white blood. The white blood really predominates. Representative Stephens. Tell us whether there are any Kickapoo Indians in the day schools of the State with the white children. Mr. Buntin. There have been a few. Representative Stephens. About how many ? Mr. Buntin. Two is all I know of. Representative Stephens. Is it not very satisfactory when you can get them to go to these schools ? Mr. Buntin. It is very satisfactory, and we encourge it all we can to get them into the day schools. Representative Stephens. It is a better system than to segregate them and put them into the Indian schools ? Mr. Buntin. Oh, yes; where we can get them in and make them regular attendants. The trouble is they will start in and then go a few days and then quit, but two of these Kickapoos have been going very regularly the past year. Representative Stephens. Are any Kickapoo Indians voters in the State? Mr. Buntin. None of them vote, that I know of, or take part in the election. Representative Stephens. Are they not competent to vote ? Would they not bo permitted to vot3 if they desired after the land has been allotted them ? Mr. Buntin. I do not believe they could stop them from voting if they go up and demand a vote. Representative Stephens. But they have never been taught to vote? Mr. Buntin. Very few of the Shawnees vote. Senator Lane. I want to ask you what percentage of tuberculosis you have among those Indians % Mr. Buntin. The percentage of tuberculosis is smaller among the tribe of Indians on this reservation than any I have been on. Senator Lane. About what is it ? Mr. Buntin. It would only be an estimate, but of the number of deaths that occur among the Indians we see that less than 50 per <-<>nt is caused by tuberculosis— less than half of them. Senator Lane. Is it increasing or decreasing ? Mr. Buntin. I think it is decreasing. Senator Lane. Are you doing anything to stamp it out ? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir; we are doing all we can. Senator Lane. What are you doing ? Mr. Buntin. Well, when an Indian is affected with tuberculosis we either get the farmer to go to them or take it up with them them- selves as to how toprevent it spreading. Senator Lane. What does he do ? Mr. Buntin. He will usually go and instruct them to have no one sleep with them, to expectorate in water, and take it off and bury it, and use every sanitary precaution. Senator Lane. They still live in the same house and continue to occupy the same house ? 1730 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Buntin. They oftentimes do that. Senator Lane. It is hard to prevent it ? Mr. Buntin. Very difficult. The Chairman. I want to ask about the number of these Indians. You say there are about 400 Shawnees, 900 Pottawatomies, and 170 Kickapoos, according to your estimate ? Mr. Buntin. Those are supposed to be present. If we go and gather up the Pottawatomies that are scattered throughout the coun- try—originally there were 1,371 allotted there. Many of them live in Kansas and never have lived there in Oklahoma — there would be a great many more; probably, if not nearly, 2,400 listed. If you were looking at the annual report, you would find those Kickapoos down in New Mexico are added on with the Indians in Oklahoma, with the Kickapoos there. The Chairman. I find in the statement furnished the House com- mittee, in its hearings in 1912, absentee Shawnees number 445. What does that mean ? Mr. Buntin. They distinguished those from the Kansas Shawnees. The Chairman. That is, the Shawnees that are actually there, is it? Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You say you think there are about 400 ? Mr. Buntin. Tom Alfred, the head man, rates them at 600. No recent enumeration has been made. The Chairman. How is it you rate them 200 lower than the head man? Mr. Buntin. My estimate is about 600, taken from Alfred's re- port, but that includes Shawnees not living there. Of the Shawnees that are living there, probably an estimate of 400 to 500 would be about right. The Chairman. Is there no accurate or nearly accurate census of them ? Mr. Buntin. No; we have not any accurate census, because they are mixed with the Indians and are constantly moving back and forth. The Chairman. In that same hearing it appeared there were citizen Pottawatomies, 1,655. Was that based upon information which that agency furnished the office ? Mr. Buntin. Probably it was, but that would include the Potta- watomies scattered throughout the country. The Chairman. How many are scattered and how many are in Oklahoma ? Mr. Buntin. I estimate about 900 Pottawatomies are living in that part of the country at this time. The Chairman. Where are the remaining 755 ? Mr. Buntin. The larger portion are in Kansas, and then they are scattered throughout the United States. The Chairman. That is just an estimate, then ? Mr. Buntin. Just an estimate. The Chairman. Upon what is that estimate based ? Mr. Buntin. That is based upon the best information that we can get from the head men of the tribe. The Chairman. I see in that hearing there are listed Mexican Kickapoos at 243. KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1731 Mr. Buntin. I think that there are more than that. I have had the Kickapoos counted, and their count at the time I had it made was 170, and I estimate those in Mexico at about 130 at last count. The Chairman. How do you go about estimating an Indian popu- lation ? I am curious to know how you get these figures. What is done when you go to make up these estimates ? What steps are taken to get at the number. Mr. Buntin. Those in Mexico, the estimate was made from the number of allottees living and the number of families, by going over it with the members of the Kickapoo Tribe that knew. The Chairman. At home, how do you get the 170 ? Mr. Buntin. Well, that was the count. I had the field agent count them. The Chairman. You have a list of them, have you ? Mr. Buntin. They have a list of those. The Chairman. Will you furnish that to us ? Mr. Buntin. Yes, I can send that to you. The Chairman. Have you a list of the Pottawatomies in your jurisdiction? Mr. Buntin. No, sir; I have not. The Chairman. Have you a list of the Shawnees ? Mr. Buntin. A very nearly correct list of the Shawnees can be furnished. The Chairman. I wish you would furnish that too. How does it happen that no list of the Pottawatomies has been made ? Mr. Buntin. The Pottawatomies are more white than Indian, and many of them you would never suspect of being an Indian to look at them, and they have moved around just like civilized people, many of them, from place to place, and had their families scattered out. Many of them left there and never lived there. (List above not furnished.) The Chairman. Mr. Bentley, gentlemen, wants to make a state- ment in reply to something Mr. Thackery said on a former occasion. TESTIMONY OF ME. MARTIN J. BENTLEY— Resumed. Mr. Bentley. My statement, now, gentlemen, is in reply to the concluding statement of Mr. Thackery the other night, in which he gave you the reasons why he was distrustful of me. At page 48 of the typewritten record, folio 2949, Mr. Thackery began giving to you his reasons why he was distrustful of me, and he again for the fifth to the tenth time brought forward the matter of my having given an Indian woman a receipt for $2,000, payable at my convenience. While I regret to say this, I am compelled to make the statement now that Mr. Thackery has willfully falsified to you in this matter. Probably no man has had reason to or has had more occasion to read the record "Affairs of the Kickapoos" than has Mr. Thackery. At page 587, volume 1 of that record, is the testimony of William A. Bonnet, president of the Border National Bank, and in regard to the funds of Emma Garland having been paid to her, Mr. Bonnet testified as follows : Mr. Bentley. Since the subject of Emma Garland is in the record, I would like to ask Mr. Bonnet if I ever paid her any money there in his bank? 1732 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Mr. Bonnet. Yep, sir; she drew some money from you. Mr. Bentley. Do you recall any particular amount that, you had occasion to look up in your books? Mr. Bonnet. She drew at one time, to the beat of my recollection, $2,000. I do not know whether that was yours or not. I know she drew a thousand. You gave her a check on one occasion because I remember the $2,000 paid her. She came in perhaps two or three months after that, the time she was homesick and tried to talk me into letting her have the money to get back to Oklahoma with. All of the testimony is in the record of the president of the bank. Mr. Thaokery. What page is that? Mr. Bentley. Page 587. That I paid the woman through his bank $2,000, and I went into court and settled it all, but notwith- standing The Chairman (interposing). You went into court and settled it. What do you mean by that? Mr. Bentley. Settled it with the agreed amount, with the ad- ministrator. The Chairman. How much? Mr. Bentley. Seven hundred dollars and some odd. Coutinuing further, the schedule of individual Indian moneys, showing the sums received by me from individuals and returned by me to them, page 2295, third volume "Affairs of the Kickapoos," shows that I originally had of this woman's mouey $4,000 ; that I had returned to her or her heirs $3,600. That statement is true, notwith- standing that Mr. Thackery, in the knowledge of this record, had his farmer, one Ratzliff, appointed administrator for the heirs of Emma Garland, whose Indian name was Ah-them-esk-kah-mo, and whose name so appears in the record referred to, and this administrator sued me for $6,000, or about that, for a large sum more than I ever had of the woman's money. At the time of the bringing of this suit my account showed that I did not owe this woman, or ner heirs, in excess of $400. However, I had not paid her any interest, and when the time came for trial I said to Mr. Thackery, who was responsible for this condi- tion, "If you put me to the trouble of going to Eagle Pass to take depositions and of procuring other witnesses, I shall fight this to a finish. But rather than be in litigation, I will pay all I owe, with reasonable interest," which I did. I drew a check for $700 and some odd, payable to the administrator, as an acceptance by him for all demands on the part of Emma Garland, or her heirs. And notwith- standing that I delivered this check into the hands of Mr. Thackery for delivery to the administrator, and that he returned it to me, suggesting some revision or correction, which was made by me and then the check returned to him, and further, that there was a con- siderable contention as to who should pay the costs in this unwar- ranted suit, that, if I recall, was adjusted by each paying one-half the costs, he went deliberately before a committee of Congress, mak- ing the oft-repeated allegation and citation about this scandalous receipt, and stated that the suit was still pending and that I had re- fused to settle with her heirs. The exact language will be found beginning at page 10 of the trans- script of the testimony given by Mr. Thackery, August 14, 1912, before the Committee on Indian Affairs of the House of Representatives — and KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1733 I think, Mr. Chairman, you have it now there before you — which in part, is as follows : The Chairman. How do you know? Mr. Thackery. Mr. Graham told me and the girl showed me a receipt which read approximately as follows : 'Due Emma Garland the sum of — naming the money; I don't remember that amount, but I think it was $2,000— to be paid her at the convenience of the payer, written in his own handwriting and signed Martin J. or M. J. Bentley." We sent that to the Indian Office and it was forwarded and used in a case in court and it is now a part of the record in that case. He got, in all, $6,000. He gave a receipt for a less amount. The Chairman. What was the amount named in the receipt? Mr. Thackery. That is what I say, I don't recall, but I think it was $2,000. It wasn't less than $2,000 I am positive, from the reading of it. I can later get the original receipt, which is in his handwriting, as stated. The Chairman. Is this Indian still in Oklahoma or Mexico? Mr. Thackery. This girl is dead. She later died and had never recovered her funds. An administrator was appointed and he has been attempting for her heirs to get a settlement, and he has had a suit pending against Mr. Bentley for an accounting m that case. The Chairman. Is that still pending? Mr. Thackery. So far as I know, it is. He knew it was not; he knew it was settled. The above testimony is not only a deliberate perjury, but the malicious, vicious kind that I do not believe fair-minded men can overlook. I defied Mr. Thack- ery then, and I defy him now, to attest the statement that he then made. I have endeavored to take up one positive, concrete instance that is insusceptible of any possible construction other than that he who made it did it falsely and for a malicious purpose. Throughout the entire record this man Thackery has endeavored to distort and has had no regard for the truth. In testifying before the House Committee on Indian Affairs The Chairman. I do not think that is proper language to be put into this record. Mr. Bentley. I will be pleased to modify it. The Chairman. You must modify it. Mr. Bentley. I am citing you the record. The Chairman. Cite the record and it is for the commission to determine the credibility of the evidence. You are under oath and that kind of language, you know, is not parliamentary. Mr. Bentley. I am stating it in an orderly The Chairman. Go ahead with your statement and make your answer as a statement of fact. Mr. Bentley. I will modify the answer to agree with your sugges- tion, but I wish to continue my statement a little further. The Chairman. If it is untrue, you are entitled and privileged to say it is not true. Mr. Bentley. Mr. Thackery testified and it is m that record — no, in testifying before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, August 14, 1912, when it was claimed that the Kickapoos should be reim- bursed for the expense they were to in moving from southeast to northwest Mexico, Mr. Thackery testified twice in that record that the move was a trivial matter; it was only a distance of 200 or 300 miles But when he came before the Senate committee with his coached Indian witnesses for the purpose of showing the committee what staunch, determined men they were, he testified that when they 35601— pt 13—14 12 1734 KICKAPOO INDIANS. became insurrectos and left the Sonera colony to return to Muzquiz, which was the starting point and destination in the first instance, he stated that it was a most tortuous trip, covering a distance of more than a thousand miles. Simply going back over the old road the others had come — only 200 or 300 miles. I might take the great record, comprising thousands of pages, occa- sioned by this man Thackery's prejudice and insincerity, and repeat similar instances, but I shall feel that the two cited, showing deliber- ate, willful — you say to leave that language out The Chairman. I do not think that adds any matter of knowledge to the commission. Mi - . Bentley. The other matters I know you will not object to. He tells you that he was distrustful of me and my purpose in 1906, because I had been under numerous indictments and of my association with Grimes. He does not tell you, however, that the indictments, the only indictment ever brought against me in the State of Oklahoma during my residence there covering 30 years, was brought through his connivance and at his instance prior to 1906. He does not tell you that Grimes and I long prior to the time that he became agent, and at all times thereafter, were the most bitter enemies. He does not tell you that from the time that he became agent until the investigation by Congress disclosed the Kickapoo forgeries, that Grimes was the agency favorite, his bosom friend. That it was notorious in the neighborhood of the agency and at Harrah, Okla., that Grimes had a stand-in with Supt. Thackery because he was help- ing Thackery to persecute me. And in support of this statement I shall ask to quote briefly from the report of Inspector Jenkins to the Secretary of the Interior under date of October 12, 1905, as shown on pages 2112, 2113-14, and 2115, third volume, "Affairs of the Kick- apoos." The inspector said in part: * * * In the first place I find practically all the charges against Grimes to be true. He is a bully and "bluffer," and ha i monopolized the leasing of these lands since the country opened. He is not a farmer, but a speculator; he employs men to farm the lands for him. His leases are not well improved. Fences are poor, clearing not thoroughly done, and there is evidence of much waste in timber cutting. I saw many places where he had cut large trees from allotments (not necessarily for clear- ing), and find that he is hauling and shipping wood by the carload from other allot- ments. This has been going on for years. Several sawmills have been in operation in the vicinity for six years or more past. * * * That he is a hard drinker, and frequently becomes intoxicated, and when in that condition is quarrelsome and dangerous. * * * Supt. Thackery admits that Grimes is not a proper man to give a lease; that he does not farm the lands, but hires men to do the work; that he drinks excessively and is quarrelsome ; that he does not farm the land well or make the improvements called for in the leases; also that he has more land than should be allowed any one man. His excuse is that when he (Thackery) came here he thought Grimes had been unfairly dealt with by Bentley, former agent, and that he has been endeavoring to repay Grimes for the bad treatment accorded him at the hands of Bentley. Through an order of court, as guardian of an Indian boy, I had executed a lease to one L. J. Pipher. Unfortunately for Pipher, he was an enemy of Grimes and a friend of mine. And, notwithstand- ing that Pipher was an excellent farmer, having moved from the farm- ing regions of Illinois, Thackery was determined to deprive Pipher of these lands in the interest of his friend Grimes, and Pipher was per- secuted in the interest of Grimes by Thackery at Government ex- pense to such an extent that he was financially ruined, notwithstand- KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1735 ing the character of Grimes being the worst and that of Pipher the best. In relation to this matter, the inspector, in his report, stated as follows : While • Mr. Thackery and Pipher disagree as to the conversation between them concerning the necessary steps to be taken for the approval of this lease, it would seem to have been the duty of Mr. Thackery to he very explicit; also that he should have written Mr. Pipher fully in order that there could be no opportunity for a misunder- standing. It also savors of spite work on the part of Mr. Thackery against Mr Bentley (in which Mr. Pipher is an innocent sufferer) in rushing the appointment of a natural guardian through and getting the lease approved for Grimes on the land in controversy. It is the apparent hatred of Bentley and favoritism shown Grimes on Mr. Thackery's part that has caused so much unfavorable comment in the com- munity, and apparently not without some ground. * * * I want to show you it was notorious that Grimes had stood in with the agent, Thackery; it was scandal throughout the community. Representative Stephens. What year was that ? Mr. Bentley. 1902, 1903, and 1904, and along there. This in- spector's report is dated October 12, 1905. Representative Stephens. What year did you go out of the service ? Mr. Bentley. 1901. Representative Stephens. Who were you succeeded by ? Mr. Bentley. By Thackery. Mr. Thackery didn't tell you when he referred to the affidavit of Grimes and Joe Adams, the attorney of Grimes, that Grimes attrib- uted the 30 or 40 indictments for forgery against him in Texas pend- ing at the time he made the affidavit, to my efforts. That Joe Adams was the attorney for the Chapman-Grimes-Conine combi- nation. Neither did he tell you that it was immediately following my ob- servation of himself and Grimes, holding a conference after 10 o'clock at night, in an alley in Shawnee, that I became suspicious that he was procuring the services of Grimes to aid him (Thackery) in secur- ing the vote of the criminal element of the Kickapoos. Up to that time Grimes had controlled absolutely by whisky, lewd women, and otherwise, about 12 of the Kickapoos, and I believed then and have since been told by Grimes that Thackery was seeking influence with them because their number would determine the result. That Thack- ery was conferring with Grimes in an alley; that the conference sud- denly terminated when they found they were observed, one going one way and one another, I can prove by the most substantial testimony. To pursue the argument any further in the light of the facts already stated I feel would be an imposition on the intelligence of this com- mittee, and an unwarranted consumption of its time. This is prac- tically the third tribunal or inquisitorial body that has gone ex- haustively into the matter now under investigation. Many thou- sands of pages of testimony have been taken. The affairs of the Kickapoo Indians and my conduct of their affairs was under investi- gation by the full committee of the Senate, covering days of time, in 1905. In 1906, and in 1907, 2,300 pages of testimony was taken, out of which grew the record now known as "Affairs of Kickapoos," which is in three volumes. Then came the investigation before the House Committee, consisting of Mr: Ferris, Mr. Stephens, Mr. Carter, and Mr. Burke. I feel that I am entitled to say that by that com- mittee I was given a full acquittance, because my contention was 1736 KICKAPOO INDIANS. sustained. In 1912, hearings Nos. 4, 5, and 6 of the Senate Com- mittee on Indian Affairs will show arguments made by me, and No 6 was the answer or showing by the Indian Bureau in rebuttal and responsive to the demand of the committee for information relating to my allegations, which occasioned another investigation as to my conduct of the affairs of the Kickapoos. My statement before the full committee of the Senate was in behalf of all the Indian people of the country, in an endeavor to bring to the notice of Congress the fact that, of the great gratuities to the Indian people, 90 per cent was expended in salaries in getting less than the other 10 per cent to the Indians; that the great Indian estates of this country were being exploited through the prejudice and lack of capacity or sincerity of the Indian Bureau; that in one instance more than 80 per cent of the entire area of an original allotted area of 301,000 acres had been absorbed by speculators, through the connivance of agency officials, and that in value less than 10 per cent remained, because the 20 per cent of the area remain- ing was sand hills, overflow, or land so eroded that it had no value. This line of argument had a disquieting effect on the Indian Bureau, and the then Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Mr. Valen- tine, convened his board of review, directing them to make a finding of fact " as to the character and capacity of Martin J. Bentley." After many weeks of deliberation and apparently exhaustive labor, the board of review reported to the honorable commissioner that they were utterly unable to make a finding of fact; that the record was of such volume and in such conflict that they could not decide. Their remarks, however, citations for and against, covered 36 typewritten pages. Thus it will be observed that, so far as the Indian Bureau tribunal is concerned, my character and capacity is beyond their capacity of determination. But this tribunal that I am now addressing surely owes it to me to say whether I have been honest or dishonest. In fact, I feel entitled to demand at your hands, not only a finding as to my character, capacity, and purpose toward the Indian people, but to determine the sum to which I am entitled over and above the $86,000 received by me from the Treasury of the United States. Otherwise I should feel that an injustice had been done me, and I ask this, to the end that peace may be had and further investigaton may end. I thank you. The Chairman. When did you receive the $4,000 from Emma Garland ? Mr. Bentley. By looking at the records I could tell you exactly, Senator. The Chairman. About when? Mr. Bentley. I think it was in 1903 or 1904. The Chairman. What did you do with it ? Mr. Bentley. I gave her, in the first instance, a note covering the whole amount. She brought the money in cash, in gold— $20 gold pieces — to my home, and we counted it over, and all in excess of $4,000 she took away with her. The Chairman. Did she do that voluntarily or had you solicited her to deposit that with you or leave it with you ? KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1737 Mr. Bentley. I would have to leave that to the commission. I was over to the agency, and my team had gone on, and Emma Garland solicited me to go to the traders to settle her account, figure it up and settle it, and I went there, and I was invited by her husband to ride with them to Shawnee, and when we got there they voluntarily hitched the team, and they got out and carried the money in there, and I gave her my note for the full amount. The Chairman. When was that note payable ? Mr. Bentley. Those notes were almost always made payable in one year. The Chairman. Have you that note ? Mr. Bentley. I do not know what became of it, Senator, when I paid it. She was a terrible spendthrift, and kept coming to me for money — and each time I would indorse it on the note. The Chairman. Did you have the note, or did she keep it ? Mr. Bentley. She had the note and kept it in her pocketbook, and I insisted that she bring the note in when I made payments, so that I could indorse it on the note. The last time she brought that note in, there was a balance of $300 in excess of $2,000 on that, and I gave her a new note for $2,000. The Chairman. What did you give her a new note for $2,000 if only a balance of $300 remained ? Mr. Bentley. I mean, giving her the $300, leaving $2,000 due, is what I mean to say. Here were all of these indorsements, paid from time to time when she came, and so I took up the old note and gave her a new one. The report she made to me, when I met her one time later in Mexico, was that she had lost that note, and also that the $300 had been stolen from her. The Chairman. You mean the money ? Mr. Bentley. The money and the note; but the first time I ever saw her after that, and she called my notice to it, I gave her the famous receipt in lead pencil which has been referred to so often in the record, "Pay at my convenience." I did not know but what somebody would show up with the note. ■ And finally I paid her some small sums, and she died. When she died, I paid her sister-in-law for the caring of her baby; when the baby died I continued to support her husband. As Mr. Thackery well knows, I bought in one instance a splendid horse, and paid $150 for it, from Joe Clark. Mr. Thackery. I do not know anything about that. Mr. Bentley. I think you do. The Chairman. You go ahead and testify. You are a lawyer and you know that while under oath you ought never to appeal to some- body else to support you. You know that is not proper. Go ahead and testify. Mr. Bentley. The husband finally came to Shawnee, Okla., and Mr Clark came to me and I gave Mr. Clark $100. The Indian had been in and asked for $100, and I gave it to Mr. Clark, and he went up town and paid it to the Indian. And the Indian got into a crap game and broke it, and they followed him out into the suburbs and shot him to death, and when the body was brought into the morgue there was not a cent on his body. Mr. Thackery sued me, 1738 KICKAPOO INDIANS. as administrator, for practically the whole sum that the woman had originally received, some $6,000. The Chairman. Just wait a minute. I want to ask you about this $2,000 note. You say that you did give her a pencil memo- randum in the nature of a due bill "payable at your convenience?" Mr. Bentley. After she had reported she lost the note; but, mind you, I did that in a country where there was no proper form available. The Chairman. Of course, you knew how to draw a note? Mr. Bentley. Even if I had, I would have given her nothing different, the note being outstanding. I merely gave her a positive evidence of there being outstanding $2,000. The Chairman. What was the object of making it payable "at your convenience ? " Mr. Bentley. For fear she might take it and cash it. This note was out. The Chairman. You wanted to give her a nonnegotiable instru- ment. Mr. Bentley. Sure, I did, until I could determine something about it. The Chairman. Why did you not specify in the face of the note that it was nonnegotiable for the reason that the note was out- standing ? Mr. Bentley. There was a great big customhouse room full of Indians, baggage being inspected, and this woman came to me in the worst confusion, and I grabbed a piece of paper — the train was waiting. The Chairman. You knew that that was an unusual form of obligation ? Mr. Bentley. Had it not been for the note having been lost, I would have given her a note in the proper form. It was not my custom to give any such notes as that. The Chairman. You say you paid the balance of that $2,000 with interest. What interest did you pay? Mr. Bentley. When the settlement actually was made I only- owed her $400, and my recollection is the check' I gave in settlement included the interest I should have paid, and it was $700 and some odd. I have forgotten exactly. The Chairman. When was that settlement ? Mr. Bentley. I do not remember the elate, but I think Mr. Thackery will, if you will pardon me. The Chairman. You are testifying, and not Mr. Thackery. If you do not know, that is the answer. Mr. Bentley. I can only give the date approximately. It was, I think, the last year that Mr. Thackery was superintendent. The Chairman. What year was that ? Mr. Bentley. That must have been in 1910, I think, or 1911. The Chairman. And the money was received in what year? Mr. Bentley. Oh, the original money was received back in, I think, 1894— or 1904—1903 or 1904, somewhere along there. The Chairman. Then when was this note for $2,000 given ? KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1739 Mr. Bentley. I am a little out of the record. I could not give very definitely the date. The first $2,000 on the original note was paid quickly. She would come in every few days wanting money, and I did not pay her any interest. Now, the next note may have been given — I expect it was three or four years from the time that I made the settlement, but most of that period there was only actually due $400 on that note, but I paid approximately the difference be- tween $300 and $700 finally in interest and costs, to be out of the confusion with it and have it settled. The Chairman. With reference to your vouchers for the disburse- ment of this $86,000 ftmd Mr. Bentley (interposing). Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have you obtained them yet ? Mr. Bentley. No, sir; they are not here. The Chairman. Have you any information as to whether you will be able to get them or not ? Mr. Bentley. It is a question, Senator, of my returning to Okla- homa or Mrs. Bentley coming here. The Chairman. The matter of most particular interest in this subject now is the disbursement of that $86,000 fund, as I have stated several times, and we would like an opportunity to examine your vouchers, if they can be procured. Mr. Bentley. If you will take the schedule upon which my set- tlement was made here, every item in that settlement, with the exception of one or two, was sustained by receipted bill or check. The Chairman. We would like to see the receipted bills or checks; that is the point I am making. Mr. Bentley. I am very willing and anxious to do that as quick as I can, but I am willing to be interrogated in any item in that account. The Chairman. We can not very well interrogate you further now. Senator Lane. There is one little item I want to inquire about. Mr. Bentley stated in his testimony that he sold the allotments of two Indians for $32,000, and only gave a note for $20,000. What became of the rest of it ? Mr. Bentley. We never got the money, Senator. The parties to whom we sold were to have Senator Lane. I was asking about the remainder of this $20,000, relative to which you testified the other night. Mr. Bentley. The land sold for $32,500, and it is true that the other night I accounted for $20,000 only, because somebody cut me off. The other $12,000 of that $32,000 was largely— some of it was paid to the Indians, the part that may have been received, but the balance of it was simply vacant town lots adjoining Shawnee, and no money has ever been gotten out of them as yet, but as a settlement of that matter I executed to my cotrustee an agreement by which in lieu of those town lots and that property remaining, that I should pay him $50 the first Monday of each month for 10 years, and at the expiration of that time I would account to him or his heirs for $10,000. Senator Lane. How much money was turned over to you by Okemah which went to the International Trust Co. — what other 1740 KICKAPOO INDIANS. accounts belonging to individuals have gone into the hands of that company ? Mr. Bentley. There was actually turned over to the International Trust Co., indirectly, through me, $17,500. As I understand it Senator Lane. Turned over to you by Okemah? Mr. Bentley. Turned over by Okemah, my cotrustee, to the Inter- national Trust Co. I saw the credit on their books, $17,500. Then, as to the amount that was deposited with them through Congress, it is my information $15,000 more was deposited. Well, no; I am getting off — there was deposited with the International Trust Co. $17,500, and then I was compelled to turn individual money in to them, $4,500, I believe, and deed some land, but in all, I think, some $23,000 or $24,000, perhaps, that I know of, of Indian money has gone into the hands of the International Trust Co. since I resigned or was released as trustee of the Kickapoo community. Since it has been incorporated, everything going to it goes into the hands of the treas- urer of the corporation. Senator Lane. So the balance of the $32,000 went into the hands of the trust company ? Mr. Bentley. Senator, it did indirectly. Senator Lane. Have they accounted for that money? Mr. Bentley. I have not any idea. The obligation that I owed Okemah, wherein I paid him from month to month $50 for 10 years. The treasurer of the Kickapoo community brought a power of attorney and threatened suit against me, and in lieu of the $8,250 that he should have paid Ives out of the $15,000, they re- ceipted to me for the sum I owed Okemah and therefore I have no knowledge of what they did with the $15,000, other than the sum of $25 that was sent Mr. Mitscher, treasurer of the community, to pay a stenographer. Otherwise I have no knowledge of it. Senator Lane. I have a letter here signed "Martin J. Bentley," dated February 8, 1913, addressed to Mr. Joseph Clark, Shawnee, Okla. Did you write that letter at that date [handing paper to Mr. Bentley] ? Mr. Bentley. That is my signature. Senator Lane. Was it written at that date ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I feel very certain it was [reading]: Washington, D. C, Februan/ 8, Ml-",. Mr. Joseph Clauk, Shawnee, Okla. My Dear Fuiend: It is a matter of very great regret to me that 1 have been unable to secure for you the $500 that I expected would be paid to you out of the Kickapoo appropriation. So far the Ives warrantees, for which the money was appropriated to pay, have not been paid out of this money, though the treasurer of the Kickapoo Corporation authorized by Congress was formed and the money promptly drawn by Mr. Field's partner, O. A. Mitscher, of Oklahoma City. It appears that Mr. Mitscher was very much in need of these funds, and instead of the money being used for the purpose for which Congress appropriated it it is being used for the benefit of Mr. Mitscher. However, it is insisted from day to day that they are going to pay, but from the information received from Oklahoma City I am led to believe that they are unable to raise the money, or that it was put into the business of the Miller-Mitseher firm, and they are unable to get it out. It had been may intention if the Ives warrantees were taken care of to pay you out of my own funds rather than see you disappointed, but I have had to pay the warrantees myself about seventy-seven hundred dollars, and was required to sell my property at a sacrifice, even after the money had been paid by the Treasury to the treasurer of the Kickapoo Corporation. The whole situation is to be regretted, but I feel that I have done my part and that the reward for my effort is the payment of seventy-seven KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1741 hundred dollars and the satisfaction of B eeing the Kickapoos' money used for the penent oi white people to whom the Kickapoos are under no obligation, rather than for the settlement of their debts and obligations. Most respectfully, (Signed) Martin J. Bentley. I was mistaken in one statement in that letter, however. The amount of the Kickapoo warrantees when approximately figured was $8,250 instead of $7,700. 5 Mr. Thaokert. May I have about two minutes ? The Chairman. Yes, sir. TESTIMONY OF FRANK A. THACKERY— Resumed. Mr. Thackery. As to whether or not I have been truthful or untruthful, I leave that to those who have heard my testimony to judge. Mr. Bentley has referred rather persistently to my statement, or rather my introduction of evidence, which is a part of the report of Inspector McLaughlin, showing that he entered into a deal with this man Grimes in the year 1908 for the purpose of securing through Grimes enough votes to control the council which was to determine the disposition of this $215,000. Notwithstanding his statements to the contrary, I must say that I was never on particularly friendly terms with this man Grimes. At the time I took charge of the Shawnee Agency, reheving Bentley, I found a number of five-year leases executed under Bentley's authority, drawn up, and Mr. Grimes had signed them, and his bondsmen had signed them, and in sending them in to the department for approval they were recommended for approval for one year instead of five. The leases mostly called for an "improvement" consideration — improvement of allotments, and Mr Grimes, soon after I took charge, came in and complained that if his leases were to be approved for one year he could not afford to put all of the improvements on these lands which he had agreed to at the time he signed the lease, and at the time his bondsmen had signed it, with the understanding that he was to hold them five years. In that matter I did take his case up with the office and represent' it that if he was to hold these lands under these leases which he had executed for five years for only one year, he should be consulted in the matter; the office should not arbitrarily reduce his period of occu- Eancy of this land to one year when he had made a contract under ond expecting to hold it five years. That was all there was to my friendly attitude toward this man Grimes. As to my frequent reference to the Emm a Garland note of $2,000 I do not think the record will show that I have attempted to do more than to impress upon the commission the wording of that note, which I say is bad on its face, which says that it is "payable at the convenience of the payer" ; that was the thing that I was attempting to bring particularly before the commission. This girl had been edu- cated at Carlisle, and she spoke reasonably good English, and she appealed to me a number of times to procure for her a settlement of this matter while she was still living. The matter was started while she was living. She started the suit herself, as I remember, and then after her death — — Mr. Bentley. You are mistaken. Mr. Thackery. Somebody else was appointed, and the suit was prosecuted until it was finally settled, just how I do not remember. 1742 KICKAPOO INDIANS. He says he gave a check in settlement. I do not remember a thing about such a check. I do not think it went through me. The attorney was Roscoe C. Herrington, of Tecumseh, now living, and he handled the whole matter for this Indian woman or her heirs, and the check, I assert positively, never did go through my hands, and that would make no difference. The Chairman. That is just what I am wondering, why either of you should quibble about that. The point is whether the suit was settled, and if it was settled whether fairly settled. Mr. Bentlby. If the Senator will pardon me, Mr. Thackery came before that committee and took it upon himself to say the suit was pending, when he himself was a party to the settlement of it. Mr. Thackery. However that may be, this particular case was brought up to show the bad wording of the note. The Chairman. That has been stated several times. Senator Lane. I want to ask you, were you ever interested in any of these banks in which Indian funds were deposited? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. Senator Lane. You never held any stock in those banks or in interlocking directorates, or anything of that sort? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. TESTIMONY OF THOMAS F. MURPHY, OF THE INDIAN OFFICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR. (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) Senator Lane. What is your position in the service ? Mr. Murphy. I am a clerk in the office of Indian Affairs at present. Senator Lane. In the Indian Bureau ? Mr. Murphy. Yes, sir. Ssnator Lane. Are you still a civil-service employee ? Mr. Murphy. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How long have you been with the Government? Mr. Murphy. Very close to eight years. Senator Lane. And connected in the same capacity you are now ? Mr. Murphy. Well, I have been in charge of some agencies and handled individual Indian money in the field, have had service as clerk in the field and worked in the office as a clerk. Senator Lane. You are in the accounting department ? Mr. Murphy. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And have charge of the bookkeeping ? Mr. Murphy. The use of appropriations and all funds. Senator Lane. You made an examination of these accounts here of Mr. Thackery's? Mr. Murphy. Together with the other two gentlemen, secretary and clerk to the commission. Senator Lane. At whose request ? Mr. Murphy. At the request of Commissioner Merritt, I came down here. I do not know at whose instance. The Chairman. Senator, let me make an explanation. Senator Lane. Yes. The Chairman. The other day, I think it was after you left, Senator, Senator Townsend and perhaps Representative Burke sug- gested that the clerks of the commission go over these checks of Mr. KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1743 Thackery's, in conjunction with some one from the Indian Bureau, and I had the clerks request the commissioner to send some competent accountant down here to go over these checks to examine them. Senator Lane. These accounts have never been submitted to your department ? Mr. Murphy. No, sir. Senator Lane. You say they are kept in the manner you keep them up in the bureau, with the same accuracy? Mr. Murphy. No, sir. Senator Lane. I understood you to say that. Mr. Murphy. I said that a legal indorsement to an individual money check was accepted as a voucher. Senator Lane. Such indorsements as are upon these checks ? Mr. Murphy. Such as some of those, not all of those; not those we have taken exception to. Exception would have been taken to those in checking up our individual Indian money. Senator Lane. What would be done with them ? Mr. Murphy. We would have either made the bank or the superin- tendent correct them. Senator Lane. What do you mean by "correct them?" Mr. Murphy. Get a proper indorsement, or in the absence of that charge it back against the bank. Senator Lane. How would you be able to ascertain whether it was a proper indorsement or not ? Mr. Murphy. The same way we ascertain the indorsement by mark with no witnesses. Senator Lane. If it has witnesses, you consider it proper, and if you send it back and they obtain some one to witness the signature, then it becomes proper, does it ? Mr. Murphy. I would like to make a statement rather than to make an answer to your direct question there. The individual Indian money checks do not pass through us. This individual Indian money is deposited in a bank to the credit of the individual, and the super- intendent holds the money as trust funds. He, however, must get authority from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs before he can expend it, and he states in his request for the authority whether or not he wishes to give the Indian the money, or for what particular purpose he wants it, how much stock, harrow, or plows, or whatever he intends to buy for the individual, and upon the approval of that authority he issues checks in payment of the indebtedness, which check is signed by the individual Indian and countersigned by the disbursing officer or agent. Then those checks, when received and paid by the bank, are forwarded direct to the Auditor of the Treasury for the Interior Department, who passes upon the indorsement and, as far as he knows, the first indorsement of the Indian being correct and legal, is accepted as a voucher; but the superintendent or agent, in addition to that, usually gets a receipted bul for his own files, so that in case anything came up to find out about what this check was used for, he might be able to produce this receipt where he did not give the check to the individual for cash. Senator Lane. You do not require him to do that— keep those vouchers? Mr. Murphy. I do not know of any written instructions to that effect, but as a general rule they do that. I always did. 1744 KICKAPOO INDIANS. Senator Lane. When lie reports, at the end of the month, or when- ever the time is, does he not send in an account showing expenditures ? Mr. Murphy. His account merely shows a statement of this Indian, showing outstanding checks that were brought forward and checks drawn during the period, with the authority under which they were drawn. Senator Lane. No explanation at all as to what expended for? Mr. Murphy. It is up to the inspecting officials to see the progress that is being made in the field. Senator Lane. But you do send some one down to inspect that account ? Mr. Murphy. The bureau inspecting officials are supposed to take that up whenever they reach this agency. Senator Lane. That is a part of their duty, then ? Mr. Murphy. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Then, you do have a full accounting ? Mr. Murphy. To that extent. Senator Lane. Do you find in that case anything of that sort? Mr. Murphy. I do find these checks that were called to my atten- tion were not properly indorsed, were not witnessed. Senator Lane. Mr. Thackery states that he took no bills and issued no vouchers, except the checks. You require more than that in the expenditure of Government funds ? Mr. Murphy. Only in going back to the disbursing officer to find out what he used the money for, and then he would either produce these bills or else show that he paid it. Senator Lane. Mr. Thackery states that he kept no receipts, but the agents do have to do that as a rule. Mr. Murphy. I do not know of any written instructions telling them to do that. Senator Lane. Would you accept it if it were not done in the department ? Mr. Murphy. The auditor never receives any information as to whether or not it is or is not done. Senator Lane. If he finds it, it is merely indirectly and by hearsay? Mr. Murphy. If he finds it, it is by complaint or otherwise. The first indorsement of the Indian on that check or the signature of the Indian to the check is deemed a receip't for value received. Senator Lane. And no inquiry is made by the department as to the expenditure of the money? Mr. Murphy. Not by the auditor. Senator Lane. By the bureau, the accounting department? Mr. Murphy. Only the inquiry made through its inspecting force Senator Lane. It has inspectors for the purpose of seeing if moneys have been properly expended ? Mr. Murphy. No; they have inspectors who are particular to inspect the schools, and others to inspect the farming operations, and others to inspect accounts. They have two inspectors that inspect accounts. Senator Lane. Then the accounts are inspected and you know the methods by which the inspection is made. What is considered an inspection ? Mr. Murphy. No, sir; I do not know KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1745 Senator Lane. Do they certify them in to the department as being correct or incorrect ? Mr. Murphy. As far as I know, these inspectors go to the agency and check up the accounts of the disbursing officer and make a report as to any discrepancy or any irregularities. Senator Lane. That is still another department from yours ? Mr. Murphy. Another branch of the Indian Office. Senator Lane. And you have nothing to do with that ? Mr. Murphy. No, sir. The Chairman. That is all. That closes the hearing for this morning. (Thereupon, at 11.05 a. m., the joint commission stood adjourned to meet at the call of the chairman.) TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION SERIAL ONE HEARINGS BEFORE THE JOINT COMMISSION OF THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES SIXTY -THIKD CONGRESS SECOND SESSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS MAY 25, 1914 PART 14 Printed for the use of the Joint Commission TO HARTW1CK COLLI " J. P. KINNEY \ttG$ "^ ONEONTA. N. Y. WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1914 I 93 P r - 11 CONQKBSS OF THE UNITED STATES. JOINT. COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS. 8bnators : Representatives : JOB T. EOBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas. HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma. CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota, R. B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary. Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk. II TONGUE EIVEE RESERVATION. monday, may 25, 1914. Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, Washington, D. Q. The joint commission met in room 128 Senate Office Building at 7.30 o'clock p. m. s Present: Senators Eobinson (chairman) and Lane; Representa- tives Carter and Burke. TESTIMONY OF JOHN R. EDDY, SUPERINTENDENT AND SPECIAL DISBURSING AGENT, TONGUE RIVER AGENCY, LAME DEER, MONT. (The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.) Senator Lane (presiding). Please give your name to the ste- nographer. Mr. Eddt. John B. Eddy. Senator Lane. Where are you from? Mr. Eddy. Lame Deer, Mont. Senator Lane. And what is your occupation? Mr. Eddt. Superintendent and special disbursing agent. Senator Lane. Of what? Mr. Eddt. Of the Tongue Biver Agency. Senator Lane. What tribe of Indians? Mr. Eddy. The Northern Cheyenne Indians. Senator Lane. And how long have you been in that position ? Mr. Eddy. Since December, 1906. Senator Lane. How many Indians have you there? Mr. Eddy. One thousand four hundred. Senator Lane. What is the state of their health? Mr. Eddy. Comparatively fair ; but not as good as it has been. Senator Lane. What is the trouble ? Mr. Eddy. Tuberculosis, trachoma Senator Lane. Is tuberculosis increasing? Mr. Eddy. I expect it is. Senator Lane. Why? Mr. Eddy. Due to the housing conditions of the people. Senator Lane. What are the housing conditions ? Mr. Eddt. Conditions that are bad for them, that make for tuber- culosis. The Indians live in log cabins that were built largely by the white settlers who formerly lived in that country, and they do not permit of good ventilation in their homes. 1747 1748 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. Senator Lane. Are there any of them living in tepees? Mr. Eddy. To some extent. They live in tepees, all of them, in the summer time. Senator Lane. What do you find to be the difference in their health living in the tepees and in the log huts? Mr. Eddy. It would be better for them to live altogether in tepees, I believe, than in illy ventilated log huts, but it would doubtless be better for them to live in well-constructed houses than in tepees, if fireplaces might be provided. Senator Lane. Why fireplaces ? Mr. Eddy. For enforced ventilation. Senator Lane. Do you think a fireplace makes for good ventila- tion? Mr. Eddy. I really do ; and if a fireplace were fitted in a log hut with a swinging crane so as to afford a camp inside of the house, we would get ventilation in the Indian home by accident. Senator Lane. Is there any way of ventilating their cabins at' small expense? Mr. Eddy. We know of no good way to ventilate the Indian homes. The Indians tend to stop up windows and doors. Senator Lane. What do you have in the way of ventilation? What is it; just an ordinary log cabin? Mr. Eddy. With but a single door oftentimes. Senator Lane. Do you not have any opening up near the roof at both ends ? Mr. Eddy, There have not been openings of that sort. Senator Lane. Did you ever think of putting them in ? Mr. Eddy. We have thought particularly of the fireplace idea. Senator Lane. You know about these other openings, do you not, that can be put in under the ridgepole ? Mr. Eddy. We know they do put in such. Senator Lane. Did you ever see them ? Mr. Eddy. No. Senator Lane. They are very easy to put in. All you have to do is to cut a hole in there next to the ridgepole and you can put a trap door to it. In fact, that is what they have to do in Alaska and those cold countries. Mr. Eddy. I see the point of that. Senator Lane. Do you think tuberculosis is increasing? You have 1,400 Indians; how many cases of tuberculosis have you? Mr. Eddy. There are varying reports, some physicians reporting that there is little and others that there is much. I suspect it is fair to state that there would be tuberculosis of some sort in nearly all of those people. Senator Lane. What are you doing to prevent it ? Mr. Eddy. We are planning to develop the economic status. Senator Lane. What are you doing now ? Mr. Eddy. We are improving the economic status. Senator Lane. In what way ? Mr. Eddy. By developing the resources of the reservation. Senator Lane. In what way ? Mr. Eddy. In the the development particularly of the horse and cattle business and now of the agricultural interests. TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1749 _ Senator Lane. That will not help them out with tuberculosis, will it, unless you provide proper living quarters? Mr. Eddy. I believe so, Senator, because it will afford us funds to provide better housing facilities. These Indians have been in de- cidedly destitute circumstances. Senator Lane. How much trachoma have you ? Mr. Eddy. There is a great deal of trachoma upon the reservation ; possibly 50 per cent. Senator Lane. Is that increasing or diminishing? Mr. Eddy. That is being held. We have instituted a very vigorous trachoma campaign. We provided three nurses last year who stimu- lated the Indians very considerably. We now have one nurse upon the reservation devoting her time exclusively to trachoma work — with very good results, by the way. Senator Lane. Are not the Indians perfectly willing to adopt measures which will cure them and prevent tuberculosis and also trachoma, if it is explained to them? Mr. Eddy. They do not readily — Indians as backward as the Cheyennes — see the point in some of the information we give them. Senator Lane. In what way do you give them information? Mr. Eddy. We have had lectures before the Indians and have re- peatedly pointed out to leading Indians, in talks at the home and in the schools and at the agency, measures that should be taken to pre- vent tuberculosis; and we have employed an Indian — one of the better men on the reservation — to take up the matter of providing better homes, with a view to checking in this way the spread of tuberculosis. Senator Lane. How many children are there in these 1,400? Mr. Eddy. About 350. Senator Lane. How are they being educated ? Mr. Eddy. In the reservation boarding school; there are some 67 there now. The capacity of that school is 70 to 75. At the Catholic mission school there are some 38 children now enrolled, and at the Birney day school there are some forty-odd children. Senator Lane. What school is that? Mr. Eddy. That is a day school where we have two teachers. And at the Lame Deer day school there is accommodation for about 30 children. Senator Lane. How many are there of school age who do not at- tend school? Mr. Eddy. There would perhaps be 75. Senator Lane. Why do they not go to school ? Mr. Eddy. There are no school facilities for the others. Senator Lane. Why not? Mr. Eddy. Our recommendations in the past to provide them have not been carried out. Senator Lane. To whom did you recommend that ? Mr. Eddy. To the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Senator Lane. For what reason were they not carried out? Do you know? Mr. Eddy. For lack of funds. Senator Lane. Have these Cheyennes any funds ? 1750 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. They have no funds now. The single fund — the share they had in the Sioux fund has been capitalized, at our recommenda- tion, for the purchase of more cattle — some $48,000. The cattle were purchased this year. Senator Lane. Now, there are about 75 that do not go to school? Mr. Eddy. About 75. Well, some of those, perhaps 30, are de- fectives. Senator Lane. In what way? Mr. Eddy. Deaf, dumb Senator Lane. Is there that percentage ? Mr. Eddy. No ; I mean that with other causes. Senator Lane. Thirty defectives out of 350 children? Mr. Eddy. Probably there might be 60 out of 350 children. Senator Lane. How do you account for that ? Mr. Eddy. Possibly in breeding, to an extent — the great conserva- tism of the Cheyennes as against any other Indians we know of in the Northwest. Senator Lane. Where are these Cheyennes from originally? Mr. Eddy. They were in the Sioux country up until about 1868. Senator Lane. In what State? Mr. Eddy. Throughout the Black Hills country of South Dakota. They also ranged more or less in their present country. They claimed quite an extensive territory. Senator Lane. Is there any syphilis among them ? Mr. Eddy. No syphilis. Senator Lane. Have they ever had it? Mr. Eddy. They have never had it. They are a singularly clean and moral people. Senator Lane. What are their habits about drinking? Mr. Eddy. I have not seen a drunken Indian in eight years on the reservation. Perhaps there might be three Indians who would drink off the reservation. Senator Lane. Are they honest ? Mr. Eddy. Wonderfully so. Senator Lane. Will they work? Mr. Eddy. They will work. Senator Lane. Do they like to? Mr. Eddy. They do when they are well paid for their labor, when they have a market for their labor. Senator Lane. How long did you say you had been with them? Mr. Eddy. Eight years. Six months as clerk. Senator Lane. Seven and a half years as superintendent? How much land have they ? Mr. Eddy. Four hundred and sixty thousand acres. Senator Lane. How much of it do they cultivate? Mr. Eddy. This has always been considered a nonagricultural country, up until about three years ago. Senator Lane. Why ? Mr. Eddy. All of that section was considered nonagricultural, except small irrigated portions. Senator Lane. For what reason? Is it arid? Mr. Eddy. It was presumed to be too arid. Senator Lane. What grew on it before ? Mr. Eddy. Good grass. TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1751 Senator Lane. Nothing but grass ? Mr. Eddy. That was all. Senator Lane. What kind of grass? Mr. Eddy. Buffalo grass — this gramma grass. Senator Lane. You mean gramma when you say Buffalo ? Mr. Eddy. Yes. Senator Lane. That is good feed ? Mr. Eddy. There is blue grass, also, in the bottoms. Senator Lane. That was then a grazing country ? Mr. Eddy. Yes; so considered. Senator Lane. And you have, you say, about 460,000 acres ? Mr. Eddy. About. Senator Lane. How much are they tilling now ? Mr. Eddy. I should judge 3,000 acres this spring. They have started a remarkable agricultural development this year. Senator Lane. How many Indians are farming? Mr. Eddy. I should say 300 able-bodied Indians working. Senator Lane. Have they made any money in that business? Mr. Eddy. This is the first year they have gone after agriculture with any considerable interest. Last year was their best year in grain. I think this year they are largely interested, because we thrashed all of their grain last year for the first time. Senator Lane. How much did you get last year? Mr. Eddy. We probably got 200,000 pounds; not a very large development. Senator Lane. That is 3,000 bushels, is it not? Mr. Eddy. Something of that sort. Senator Lane. A little over. How have they made their living heretofore ? Mr. Eddy. They eked out a very miserable existence up until about eight years ago. They had to subsist almost exclusively upon sub- sistence provided by their treaty funds. There was no labor market in the country. Senator Lane. They have a treaty fund now ? Mr. Eddy. They do now. Senator Lane. How much does it pay them a year per capita ? Mr. Eddy. The total that they get is a share of about $53,000 each year. Senator Lane. Among 1,400 Indians? Mr. Eddy. One thousand four hundred Indians. Senator Lane. That is about 300 families? Mr. Eddy. Well, almost 400. They are very small families. Senator Lane. That allows them about how much per capita? Did you ever figure it out? Mr. Eddy. We use about $28,000 of that for subsistence, which does not give them much over $25 per capita. Senator Lane. What do you do with the balance ? Mr. Eddy. That is used for the purchase of equipment — bulls, for instance, for the herds, and for roads and bridges. Senator Lane. You say they have lived mostly on this $25 to $50 a year heretofore? Mr. Eddy. Heretofore. By the way, that accounts for a great deal of their tuberculosis. Senator Lane. It would not support them ? 1752 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. They were starving people. Senator Lane. They were always a little undernourished? Mr. Eddy. That is the point ; that is always the point. Senator Lane. That is the case now with a good many? Mr. Eddy. To a less extent, but still to a degree. Senator Lane. You say you have only 300 Indians there that are working and making a living from farming? That leaves you 1,100 Indians ? Mr. Eddy. Yes; but of course they get their returns from their sales of horses and cattle. Senator Lane. How long have they been making money out of cattle? Mr. Eddy. For seven years. Senator Lane. How much would that amount to ? Mr. Eddy. They have, from an investment of not to exceed $75,000 by the Government, netted in cattle $240,000. Senator Lane. In what length of time ? Mr. Eddy. They have been receiving receipts for the last seven years. Senator Lane. That is, $240,000 total? Mr. Eddy. Total. Senator Lane. That would be about $30,000 a year average? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. The most of that came in during the latter portion of the term ? Mr. Eddy. The last five years. Senator Lane. So you would have to cut that estimate again? It would not average more than $20,000 a year for the whole period, would it? Mr. Eddy. Then the sales of pony stock would give them another income. Senator Lane. Have you ever figured that out to see just what their income would be, to see what one of those Indians would have to support his family ? Mr. Eddy. We have figured they would not have over about $80 apiece per year. Senator Lane. What do you suppose it averages now ? Mr. Eddy. Over all, probably $125. Senator Lane. $125 a year for the head of a family of man, wife, and one or two children ? Mr. Eddy. Well, no ; about $100 apiece over all. Senator Lane. That makes it better. Do you irrigate that land ? Mr. Eddy. An irrigation system was provided about seven years ago. Work was started on Tongue River and about 1,200 acres of land put under the ditch, divided into 20-acre allotments, the old owners allowing the allotments to be made in this way, sacrificing their holdings in the interest of the common good. These Indians are doing right well upon their allotments. The inspection that has been made of the irrigation work throughout the country credits the Cheyennes with making as good use of their opportunities as any Indians in the Northwest — that is, in irrigation. Senator Lane. The rest of the land is farmed under a dry-farming process TONGUE BIVER RESERVATION. 1753 Mr. Eddy. Then on the Eosebud country, which is a very fine val- ley, which we are now finding will grow alfalfa without irrigation, there was an irrigation system there of a sort that called for fairly high-class management. It took flood waters rather than any nat- ural supply. The Indians are doing quite a little there on the Rosebud. Senator Lane. With alfalfa? Mr. Eddy. With alfalfa. Senator Lane. How many acres have they in alfalfa, do you sup- pose ? Mr. Eddy. There are probably 1,000 acres in alfalfa; let us say 800 acres. Senator Lane. How many crops does it produce per year ? Mr. Eddy. Two good crops. Senator Lane. How much do you get out of an acre of alfalfa ? Mr. Eddy. They can get from 3 to 4 tons per acre, with fair care. Senator Lane. What is the alfalfa hay worth ? Mr. Eddy. In the stack, $6 Senator Lane. Whom do they sell it to ? Mr. Eddy. They have not had a market for their hay, except as the Government has bought about 200 tons a year. Senator Lane. What became of the rest of it? Mr. Eddy. They have used that largely to subsist their pony stock. Senator Lane. Do they have any cattle up in that country where they have the alfalfa? Mr. Eddy. There has been no demand for our hay from the outside. Senator Lane. Do you have any chance to develop one ? Mr. Eddy. We feel we ought to develop it now by tribalizing the herd which the Indians own, and feeding all our hay into this Indian herd rather than allowing it to run as a range proposition. Senator Lane. What do you mean by " range proposition " ? Mr. Eddy. Allowing the cattle to run at large on the range and shift for themselves for the winter. Senator Lane. Do they want the cattle run as a tribal herd ? Mr. Eddy. They have done a very remarkable thing recently. When we took this matter up with them the Indians declared they were willing to forego the use of beef as a ration in order to tribalize the herd and to raise hay and grain to subsist it, and to permit of the funds being used to pay for all the hay and grain they used. And if this plan will work as the commissioner tells me he is pleased to have it work, I feel that the Cheyenne problem is solved. Senator Lane. In what way ? Do you think that will provide for them? Mr. Eddy. A labor market is provided for their industries. Senator Lane. You mean that the cattle will support them? Mr. Eddy. The cattle and horses will support them. Of course we are asking for many more cattle, because outside interests now are using part of the range that should be stocked with Indian cattle. Senator Lane. How does that happen? Mr. Eddy. We lease it. We get $3.40 a head for the outside leasing, for 5,000 head. Senator Lane. Whom do you lease that to? 1754 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. To C. M. Taintor, of New York. There was no leasing until six years ago. The lessees would not come in upon this reserva- tion, these Indians had such a reputation as cattle killers. Senator Lane. Were they cattle killers? Mr. Eddy. Mr. McPherson, of the Indian Office, said he had re- ceived more complaints of cattle killing from Tongue River than from all the reservations combined. Senator Lane. He has how many cattle? Mr. Eddy. Five thousand head. Senator Lane. What do you do with that money ? Mr. Eddy. That is known as " Indian moneys, proceeds of labor " ; and that, like the treaty funds, is available for the pay of employees, and in this case that goes almost exclusively to Indian employees. Senator Lane. What do they do? Mr. Eddy. They serve as line riders. Senator Lane. What do you mean by " line riders "' ? Mr. Eddy. The reservation is fenced. Senator Lane. Why do you have to have a line rider? Mr. Eddy. To see that the fence is kept up, and that it is not broken down. Senator Lane. How many miles of fence have you ? Mr. Eddy. About 125 miies. Senator Lane. And that surrounds the reservation? Mr. Eddy. That surrounds the reservation. Senator Lane. How many line riders have you? Mr. Eddy. Eight. Senator Lane. What do you pay them ? Mr. Eddy. $60 a month. ' _ Senator Lane. That is $i80 a month. You pay $6,000 a year for line riders to guard that fence? Mr. Eddy. Of course, they do many other things. They serve as round-up crews. Senator Lane. They round-up for whom ? Mr. Eddy. The Indian cattle and horses. Senator Lane. Do they round-up for Mr. Taintor ? Mr. Eddy. No; he pays his own expenses. Senator Lane. Does he have any of these men to check him? Mr. Eddy. We do check very carefully. Senator Lane. How do you' do that ? Mr. Eddy. By sending a rider in each case — one or two riders, perhaps three. Senator Lane. Do you furnish him grub ? Mr. Eddy. On the occasion of coming in, as a rule, the Taintor outfit would have its wagon with them, and the habit of the country would be for them to subsist each other. Senator Lane. And for the Indians to do a lot of rounding-up, too? & ^ Mr. Eddy. They really do none of that, Senator. Senator Lane. You get $17,000 for the rent of this land, and then you turn around and spend $6,000 of it— one-third of the money- tor people to ride over the range and guard a fence ? Mr. Eddy. Guard a fence, and guard the range against fire, and act as forest crews and general helpers. Senator Lane. Does anybody ever break through the fence? TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1755 Mr. Eddy. Oh, the Indian reservations are subject to depredations all the time from the outside. Senator Lane. What do they come in there for ? Mr. Eddy. Perhaps to take cattle and horses. Senator Lane. Do they ever steal them ? Mr. Eddy. We suspect they do. Senator Lane. Do you take careful count of your cattle ? Mr. Eddy. Very carefully. We took an individual inventory of the cattle two years ago, putting them through the chutes 'and bobbing their tails. Senator Lane. Do you brand ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What is vour brand « Mr. Eddy. I. D. Senator Lane. Did you ever see the I. D. brand changed ? Mr. Eddy. I imagine it might be changed. Senator Lane. You do not know that you lose many cattle or horses that way ? Mr. Eddy. The line riders protect a great many of them; and keeping them branded up very close saves them to a large extent. Senator Lane. Now, these Indians are living in houses illy venti- lated; and you think by improving their financial condition they will be able to build better houses with ventilation ? Mr. Eddy. I think that is all there is to it. Senator Lane. As far as ventilation is concerned, Mr. Eddy, you could get that in any cabin you have there now with an axe ? Mr. Eddy. We would be. very happy to do that. Senator Lane. And just as good ventilation, just as beneficial to the Indians, as if you imported an expert on that subject and put it in in some more expensive manner. Mr. Eddy. Do you mean that your ventilation hole there will stay open in the winter ? It can be seen, can it not ? Senator Lane. The way I have seen them in some cabins, in the peak of the roof, they just saw out a little square opening at both ends and then put a little door there that they can slide back and forth with a string on each side. You would get all the ventilation in the house you would want by sawing a hole in it. Mr. Eddy. But they would not keep the hole there. Senator Lane. Then they would not pay any attention to your better class of house either, would they ? Mr. Eddy. Well, you see, there would be more windows and more doors, and more accidental chances of ventilation. Senator Lane. Then it would be purely accidental ? Mr. Eddy. I think that is all there is to it. Senator Lane. Then you will have to do something different from that; that will not save them. And you need not breed cattle or take much care about increasing their financial condition if you are going to depend upon accident to cure tuberculosis, for it will not do it. The old-fashioned tepee is a better habitation than any medi- cal gentleman has been able to invent. It was the simplest and best type of ventilation that has ever been invented. The fact is, it is nothing more or less than the same principle that was used in the old cupola furnace, which, until they invented the blast furnace, was used for melting iron. 1756 TONGUE EIVEK KESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. We are not discouraging the Indians in the use of tepees. Senator Lane. I think it would pay you to encourage them. You will get rid of your tuberculosis; that is, if you teach them to be careful about reinfecting one another. Of course, that you will have to look out for. Mr. Eddy. The Cheyennes, on advice, would stay in their tepees. Senator Lane. They like to live in them? Mr. Eddy. Yes. Senator Lane. And if they will make them with double walls, and build a modified tent, something after the style of the Sibley tent, with a cap, leaving this center hole like that [indicating with a sketch], you will have then absolutely the best type of ventilation there is. Mr. Eddy. Certainly. Senator Lane. So you think the Cheyenne Indians are doing well, and better than the average Indians in their improvement and in their work as farmers? Mr. Eddy. I think the Cheyenne Indian presents an interesting example of the hopeful Indian who has done poorly and who be- lieves that he is now doing well. I can not make comparisons. I do not know a great deal about the condition of the other Indians. Senator Lane. Are they happy and contented ? Mr. Eddy. They have always seemed so to me; singularly so- speaking now of the thoughtful Indians. Senator Lane. What kind of education are you giving them? Common school ? Mr. Eddy. They get the common-school education. Senator Lane. How is the health of those children in that first school, where you have 75 in the boarding school ? Mr. Eddy. Very much better than that of any other children on the reservation. Senator Lane. Is there much tuberculosis among them ? Mr. Eddy. Of course the tuberculosis has made its seat among the Indians probably years ago. Senator Lane. You can not segregate those ? Are there any active cases of tuberculosis there ? Mr. Eddy. No, sir ; they are kept out. Senator Lane. Now, in the Catholic school? Mr. Eddy. That is in about the same condition. Senator Lane. They are in good condition there, you mean? You keep the active cases out ? Mr. Eddy. Yes ; the doctor is instructed to allow none of the active cases or serious diseases to remain. I might mention, if you would like to know it, that goiter has settled among those people to the extent, probably, of 30 per cent. Senator Lane. What does the doctor attribute that to? Mr. Eddy. Of course, they now say the alkaline waters Senator Lane. They have it just as much where they have soft water as they do where they have alkaline waters. Mr. Eddy. I understand the southern Cheyennes are not afflicted with goiter. Senator Lane. Where are they located ? Mr. Eddy. In Oklahoma. TONGUE RIVEK RESERVATION . 1757 Senator Lake. There is alkali there; lots of it. What do you do for that? _ Mr. Eddy. Of course we have encouraged those Indians that would listen to the proposition to go off to have it treated. Just recently ■we sent a young man, the agency interpreter, to the Mayo brothers, and they took a large amount of flesh from his throat. Senator Lane. How is the Indian getting along now ? Mr. Eddy. Famously. Senator Lane. Can not your physician operate on them ? Mr. Eddy. I do not suppose so in those serious cases. We have not a hospital. They are planning to give us a hospital this year, but I suspect in that case the agency physician would not care to undertake that. Senator Lane. What did it cost you? Mr. Eddy. He happened to have funds of his own. He happened to be related in Oklahoma, and perhaps has a considerable fortune. He paid some $250. Senator Lane. There are many of these Indians that have no money and no way of securing relief ? Mr. Eddy. Well, we would make a way if we could interest them to go. They are very conservative. I have asked this young fellow to become a missionary in that field and endeavor to get Indians that can not afford to go to be willing to go at Government expense. Senator Lane. The Government would do that, would it ? Mr. Eddy. In every case where I have picked the cases up and sent them they have paid afterwards. Senator Lane. How far are you from Mayo Bros. ? Mr. Eddy. About a day's ride Senator Lane. That makes it quite convenient. Mr. Eddy (continuing). On the train. Of course, we are 65 miles from the rail. Senator Lane. Now, you are of the opinion that the general condi- tion of the Northern Cheyennes is improving in every way except physically ? Mr. Eddy. That is my opinion; yes, sir. That is the general opin- ion of thinking people who have lived in that country for years. Senator Lane. How many employees are there there? Mr. Eddy. I have a list here [handing a paper to Senator Lane]. Senator Lane. There is $9,540 expended in the boarding school. How many employees are there in the boarding school ? Mr. Eddy. About 10. Senator Lane. How many in the day school ? Mr. Eddy. Five. Senator Lane. What do you mean by " forest " ? Mr. Eddy. Forest guards — two. Senator Lane. " Farm ; " that means farmers ? Mr. Eddy. Farmers. Senator Lane. How many farmers? Mr. Eddy. Five. Senator Lane. You farm 3,000 acres of land. That is one farmer to 600 acres. What do you pay those farmers? Mr. Eddy. Two get $1,200; three get $720. Senator Lane. What is their work? What do these farmers do? 1758 TONGUE SIVEE RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. Farm. Senator Lane. They do farm ? Mr. Eddy. They supervise the farming. Senator Lane. In what way ? Mr. Eddy. They go among the Indians and interest them to de- velop their farming tracts. Senator Lane. How do they do that ? Mr. Eddy. By being constantly with them as advisers. Senator Lane. And talk with them? Mr. Eddy. Largely so ; and getting right down and showing them how to farm. Senator Lane. "What crops do they raise? Mr. Eddy. Oats Senator Lane. What else ? Mr. Eddy. Alfalfa, corn ; that is, we are starting corn. Senator Lane. How much corn did you raise last year? Mr. Eddy. Probably 150 acres. Senator Lane. How much did it grow ? Mr. Eddy. It is squaw corn. Senator Lane. How much did you get out of it? Mr. Eddy. Not over 25 bushels. Senator Lane. What else do you raise ? Mr. Eddy. Gardens in every case. Senator Lane. In every case? Mr. Eddy. Practically every case. Senator Lane. What do they raise in the gardens ? Mr. Eddy. The ordinary garden produce: Potatoes, beets Senator Lane. How is it for potatoes? Mr. Eddy. A very excellent potato country. Senator Lane. How many can you raise to the acre? Mr. Eddy. Two hundred bushels. Senator Lane. Good potatoes? Mr. EDDr. First-class potatoes. Senator Lane. How many bushels of potatoes do you suppose you raised last year? Mr. Eddy. We bought 50,000 pounds from them this spring. Senator Lane. That is about 800 bushels. What do you use those for? Mr. Eddy. To issue to the Indians generally as seed. Senator Lane. How many Indians raised these potatoes? Mr. Eddy. We bought those from probably 20 Indians. Senator Lane. You know, then, of 800 bushels raised. How much more than that was raised ; do you know ? Mr. Eddy. Why, probably 2,000 bushels. Senator Lane. What are they worth up there ? Mr. Eddy. We paid $1.25. Senator Lane. A bushel? Mr. Eddy. A hundred. Senator Lane. What do you mean here by "house construction"? Mr. Eddy. One Indian engaged in the work of teaching the Indians to construct homes. Senator Lane. A head carpenter? Mr. Eddy. You might call him that ; yes. TONGUE EIVEB KESERVATION. 1759 Senator Lane. Now, these five farmers — you have five farmers for 3,000 acres of land. I am interested in getting at what those farmers do. Mr. Eddt. Well, Senator, with those backward people it takes much hammering Senator Lane. Are these farmers entirely engaged in that work? Mr. Eddy. Entirely now; yes, sir. Senator Lane. What do they do in the wintertime ? Mr. Eddy. This winter a number of the farmers have helped on house construction at the agency. Senator Lane. How many months did they do that? - Mr. Eddy. Probably three months this winter. Senator Lane. Then there are nine months in the year they work on the farms with the Indians. It is impossible for them to do that in the winter? Mr. Eddy. Yes. Senator Lane. Do those Indians put up any ensilage? Mr. Eddy. No ; they have not arrived at that point yet. Senator Lane. They put up hay though ? Mr. Eddy. Alfalfa hay; yes. Senator Lane. Do they make any butter? Mr. Eddy. No butter. They are keeping some milch cows though. Senator Lane. Do they have milk ? Mr. Eddy. They are just beginning to keep milch cows. Senator Lane. Is there any tuberculosis in the cattle ? Mr. Eddy. We presume not. Senator Lane. Have you tested them? Mr. Eddy. They have not been recently inspected, but they were inspected before they were brought in there. Senator Lane. Do you raise chickens? Mr. Eddy. They are beginning to keep chickens. These were a nomadic, shifting people, you know. Senator Lane. Do they have any musical instruments among them? Mr. Eddy. Phonographs only. Senator Lane. Do they enjoy those? Mr. Eddy. Very much. Senator Lane. Do they have dances? Mr. Eddy. To some extent, but not at all as they used to. Senator Lane. I do not mean the savage dances. Do they dance the white man's dances ? Mr. Eddy. At the schools only. Senator Lane. The tango, for instance? Mr. Eddy. I have not noticed the tango. Senator Lane. Are they religious people? Mr. Eddy. After their manner. Senator Lane. In what way ? Mr Eddy. They are very religious as Indians, you know, iney have great respect for their concepts ; that is, the missionaries do not make much of a dent on the Cheyennes. Senator Lane. What is their religion? Mr. Eddy. Well, it is a very devoted appreciation ot nature, 1 would imagine. 1760 TONGUE EIVEE RESERVATION. Senator Lane. Have you inquired into it in any particular way? Mr. Eddy. No; I have not, not as a study; but Dr. Grinnell, who has studied these people for 23 years, states that the Cheyennes are perhaps more thoroughly religious than any Indians in the United States. Senator Lane. You do not know in what way? Mr. Eddy. Well, I suppose in respect at all times for the occur- rences of the day, as things change — the shadow crossing the path, the sun, the stars — whatever comes to a native people by signs. Senator Lane. Each one has a meaning? Mr. Eddy. To them. Senator Lane. They attach a significance to it ? Mr. Eddy. Very markedly. If you cross before a tepee door at a certain time it is significant Senator Lane. Either good or bad luck ? Mr. Eddy. Yes. Senator Lane. That is superstition, so called by others who do not believe in it. Now, the total of your pay roll is $42,236. How much is that per capita ? Mr. Eddy. It would be about $28 ; $17,000 of that, you will notice, is paid to Indians. Senator Lane. What are those Indians doing? Mr. Eddy. Police interpreters, farmers, school physicians Senator Lane. Well, it is going into salaries just the same. That is $30 a year for each Indian's supervision ? Mr. Eddy. The $17,000, of course, filters back into the tribe. Senator Lane. Yes ; there is $17,000 that comes back into the tribe. Now, you have "health" here. How many physicians are there? Mr. Eddy. Two allowed. Senator Lane. How many nurses? Mr. Eddy. One now. Senator Lane. You have a little hospital there, you say ? Mr. Eddy. None. We ought to have one. Senator Lane. Could you not put up some tepee hospitals for your tubercular cases? What do the doctors think of it? Mr. Eddy. Very favorably. I think the commissioner's plan is something of that sort- Senator Lane. Does it cost much to put up a tepee ? Mr. Eddy. Very little. Senator Lane. How much do you think? Mr. Eddy. $30. Senator Lane. Now, you have here " stock, $8,760." Mr. Eddy. That is, employees engaged with stock — the superin- tendent of live stock Senator Lane. You have a superintendent of live stock ? What do you pay him ? Mr. Eddy. $1,500. Senator Lane. What does he do? Mr. Eddy. He supervises generally the live-stock industry. Senator Lane. In what way does he supervise it ? Mr. Eddy. He gets right out and lives with it on the range. Senator Lane. Watching the cattle ? Mr. Eddy. And the horses and the line riders. TONGUE EIVEB BESERVATION. 1761 Senator Lane. How many cattle are there? Mr. j^ddy. Something over 6,000 head. ?® na ™ r Lane. How many horses « studs'in thli Pr ° bably 7 > 000 head - There are 100 draft breeding IsftTettLg^tJ? 1 "* " fW imprOTlng the St ° Ck - H ° W is the St0ck? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir ; very much better. Senator Lane. Do these 100 improved stallions run on the range? Mr. Eddy. They run on the range. Senator Lane. Do they fight ? Mr. Eddy. They do not. Senator Lane. They do not kill one another ? Mr. Eddy. Not that we notice. Senator Lane. You have 13,100 head of stock, and you have a superintendent. Then you also have how many line riders « Mr. Eddy. Eight. Senator Lane. That is nine men to take care of this stock. Mr. Eddy. There are 10 ; there is another man. Senator Lane. Is not that almost too many ? Mr. Eddy. The present superintendent of live stock thinks he can keep them wonderfully busy. Senator Lane. What would the cattlemen do about that ? Mr. Eddy. They would have many more. Senator Lane. How many would they have? Mr. Eddy. Probably three times as many. Senator Lane. For that many stock? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. You see it takes almost as many men to look after that much stock on that reserve as if it was full of stock. Senator Lane. Is it on account of the character Mr. Eddy. The character of the range all over the country — spread all over the 460,000 acres. Senator Lane. Under " irrigation" you have $900 for a man? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir; he is a supervisor. Senator Lane. What does your irrigation amount to? What does it cost the Indians ? Mr. Eddy. That amount each year. Senator Lane. What did it cost them to put in a plant ? Mr. Eddy. $125,000. Senator Lane. Has that been paid? Mr. Eddy. That has been paid. That was constructed under the supervision of the irrigation division exclusively. Senator Lane. $125,000 for 1,200 acres of land ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir ; I might say that the chief engineer, Mr. Code, reporting upon this proposition, stated originally that merely as an engineering proposition he could not recommend it by reason of the excessive cost that would be entailed, but as the people in this particu- lar group were 75 miles from a railroad, had had no advantages since they had been there for 30 years, and there was very little irrigable land available, it was worth while as a laboring proposition to un- dertake the work at great cost. Senator Lane. You employ Indians a good deal? Mr. Eddy. Exclusively now. 35601— pt 14—14 2 ; ~ -' • '>> 1762 TONGUE EIVER EESEKVATION. Senator Lane. This land is divided into 20-acre allotments? Every Indian on the reservation has 20 acres? Mr. Eddy. No; just as many as the land will run. There are about fifty-seven 20-acre allotments, I think. Senator Lane. Did the Indians, who secured these allotments, pay for this cost? Mr. Eddy. No ; that was a gratuitous appropriation. Senator Lane. How did they happen to get the allotments in preference to anyone else ? Plow did you settle that ? Mr. Eddy. We called the Indians there in council — those who held the larger tracts through which the canal ran — asking them if they would not consent to the subdivision, saying that the watered 20 acres would be worth more than the unwatered 100 acres. Theirs is a communal spirit, and the Indians, after a council, agreed' to move out and allow their neighbors to come in. Senator Lane. The Indians are all socialistic in that way, you know. Mr. Eddy. Very. Senator Lane. Have they had any potlatches there since you have been there? Mr. Eddy. I do not know of any, Senator. Senator Lane. What would you say is the actual value of those houses they live in — these log cabins? What does it cost to build them? Mr. Eddy. The old houses they live in would be valued at probably $100 or $150. Senator Lane. What are they built of — logs? Mr. Eddy. Just logs. Senator Lane. What kind of logs ? Mr. Eddy. Pine logs. We have a fine timber country — the Mon- tana mountain pine. Senator Lane. Not the lodge pole? Mr. Eddy. No ; that grows about 100 miles away in the Big Horn country. Senator Lane. It would be worth about $100? Mr. Eddy. About $100. Senator Lane. How many rooms ? Mr. Eddy. One or two. Senator Lane. How many will live in one room? A whole family ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. That ought to be stopped. They did that in the tepee, but the tepee ventilated itself. What kind of quarters have you? Mr. Eddy. Very good quarters. Senator Lane. What did your house cost, do you suppose? Mr. Eddy. The value of the house that was built for the super- intendent would be about $6,500. Senator Lane. Are you a married man? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Any children? Mr. Eddy. Two children. Representative Btjrke. I would like to ask Mr. Eddy a few ques- tions, although I have no information as to what this inquiry is leading to. TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1763 Senator Lane. It is to ascertain what the conditions are on that reserve so we may compare it with others in a general way. Representative Burke. Mr. Eddy, in speaking of tepees, do you ha Jf "Lmind the Indian tepee and not a tent? ' Mr. Eddy. I really meant both by tepees, Mr. Burke. Representative Burke. To what extent are the Indians discon- tinuing the use of the old tepee and living in the ordinary tent? Mr. Eddy To a very considerable extent. There are many more tents than there are tepees. Representative Burke. The younger Indians take to the tent rather than to the tepee, do they not ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. And the tepee gradually is disappearing? Mr. Eddy. It is gradually disappearing. Senator Lane. That is a mistake on the part of the Indians. Representative Burke. These log houses you have described, have many of them ceilings ? Mr. Eddy. We have a planer that we got last year, and we have planned to ceil these one or two room houses for the Indians. Representative Burke. Are any of the cabins there now ceiled ? Mr. Eddy. None of them. Representative Burke. Then, if the openings for ventilation were put in at each end of the cabin, in the gable, as suggested by Senator Lane, it would furnish ventilation if you could keep it open? Mr. Eddy. It would; yes, sir. Representative Burke. Now, you stated your idea of ventilation was to have them live in houses and have fireplaces ? Mr. Eddy. That has always appealed to me since I have studied the proposition as the most practical thing to urge generally through- out the Indian country Representative Burke. It would be difficult for them to shut off the ventilation? Mr. Eddy. That is the point exactly. Representative Burke. Would it be desirable, in your opinion, to encourage the Indians to live as they did originally, in tepees, which means whole families occupying one apartment ? Mr. Eddy. It would not, of course, be progressive to encourage them to do that, as that would not be inculcating ideas of good moral relationships, as we understand them, in the one-room tepee. But un- questionably, from the standpoint of health, it would be better for the Indians to have the well-ventilated tepee. Representative Burke. What are the climatic conditions there in the winter? Mr. Eddy. Very severe, at times. Representative Burke. How severe? Mr. Eddy. It is sometimes 40 below for two or three days at a time. Representative Burke. Do you haVe much snow ? Mr. Eddy. Not so much snow, but considerable at times. For four winters up until two years ago we had a good deal. Representative Burke. Over what period of time does that ex^ treme cold last? • Mr. Eddy. In my experience, it has lasted for 30 days at a streteb, 'but generally not more than 5 or 6. 1764 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION. Eepresentative Burke. But during a period of how many months? Mr. Eddy. Four months. Representative Burke. During the winter months is there a ten- dency on the part of these Indians to get together, more than one family in a cabin, living in one house ? Mr. Eddy. They tend to congregate somewhat, but not as much perhaps as you have noticed among some other Indians. Eepresentative Burke. What do they use for fuel ? Mr. Eddy. Wood, mainty. Eepresentative Burke. Can they get an abundance of fuel? Mr. Eddy. A great abundance. Eepresentative Burke. Your reservation contains 460,000 acres? Mr. Eddy. Yes. Eepresentative Burke. How are the Indians located upon that reservation with relation to the agency? Mr. Eddy. They are very widely dispersed; up and down the Eosebud Creek, a stream about 40 miles long, a third of them are located ; on the various side creeks on the reservation another third ; and on Tongue Eiver about a third. Eepresentative Burke. When you say a third here and a third somewhere else, does that mean that they are divided into three bands, living along different rivers or creeks ? Mr. Eddy. They are really divided into five rather distinct bands. They do not mingle much as between bands. And two of these bands would be strung along that Eosebud Creek. Eepresentative Burke. How long a distance? Mr. Eddy. Forty miles. Eepresentative Burke. What is the farthest point from the agency where there is any Indian living? Mr. Eddy. About 32 miles. Eepresentative Burke. Is the agency located so it is reasonably near the center of the reservation? Mr. Eddy. The location is perhaps as good as it could be, the roads being as they are. Eepresentative Burke. One of these schools is located at the agency ? Mr. Eddy. One at the agency. Eepresentative Burke. Where is the Catholic school? Mr. Eddy. That is 25 miles from the agency. Eepresentative Burke. Where is the Birney Day School ? Mr. Eddy. That is 25 miles in a different direction, and 25 miles from the Catholic school. Eepresentative Burke. Where is the Lame Deer School? Mr. Eddy. At the agency. Eepresentative Burke. That is the agency school? Mr. Eddy. But the Busby School, is the training school, 18 miles from the agency. All the schools are separate from each other. _ Eepresentative Burke. Do any of the Indians attend nonreserva- tion schools? Mr. Eddy. We have had very poor success with nonreservation schools. The first year I took charge I was struck with the back- ward condition of the children, and thought it would be well to send a good many of them off, and I sent 35 to Carlisle the first six months, TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1765 but the results were so disastrous I could not bring myself again to encourage the Indians to go great distances. Senator Lane. In what way was it disastrous? Mr. Eddy. There was such a tremendous death list — sickness — homesickness. Representative Burke. Do any of these Indians attend the schools in North Dakota or South Dakota ? Mr. Eddy. Some of them have attended the Rapid City schools— to good advantage, by the way. Representative Burke. What number of children belonging to this reservation were in nonreservation schools this last year, if any ? Mr. Eddy. Not over 10. I think it should be made clear to the committee why that should be so. The Indians have not got over the Carlisle and Haskell experience. Representative Burke. Of the amount of money that was appro- priated under the 1877 treaty for subsistence, has any portion been used to pay for Indian labor instead of purchasing subsistence and issuing it to the able-bodied Indians? Mr. Eddy. The way we have handled that has been to recognize that at our isolated point the treaty funds would buy twice as much subsistence for the Indians as if we gave them labor out of the treaty funds, and then they used the proceeds to buy subsistence. And because of that fact we have thought it was good administration, in the face of criticism at this end, to feed practically all of those Indians and support two basic industries which have developed at a rate which will very soon mean absolute independence for the Northern Cheyennes if these policies are supported. Representative Burke. Now, briefly, what were the conditions that obtained upon this reservation when you first went there, about eight years ago, I think you said? Mr. Eddy. Eight years ago. The Indians were in an absolutely disheartened state. They had no resources other than as you pro- vided them in the treaty funds. They could not get any grazing funds, of course, although they had no cattle, because their reputa- tion was such that the white ' lessees would not come in. On that proposition I had to make a year's personal canvass in that country to induce the people to come in, although now they jump over each other. There was very little work in the local country for those people, and the Indians were disheartened and poor. Representative Burke. What educational facilities did they have at that time? Mr. Eddy. They had the Catholic school, and this boarding school had been constructed about two years previous to my going there, and this Lame Deer school. There was no school at Birney in this Tongue River district. Representative Burke. Then, at that time they were practically subsisting largely upon what the Government issued to them in ra- tions? Did they do any hunting or fishing? Mr. Eddy. Game had been pretty well worked off. They, of course, got a few prairie dogs, and they did fish a little, but they had very little to eat. Senator Lane. Did they eat prairie dogs? Mr. Eddy. Oh, yes ; they eat dogs. 1766 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. Eepresentative Burke. When was it that you first began the crea- tion of a herd of cattle or other stock on this reservation ? Mr. Eddy. The first stock provided for was by the act of May 27, 1902, and we got 1,000 heifers and 40 bulls in July, 1903, as the result of that legislation, costing $28,000. Eepresentative Burke. That was before your time? Mr. Eddy. Yes; but there had been no sales from that group. Then, in 1906, due perhaps to the pressure we put upon the propo- sition, we got under the act of June 21, 1906, another 1,000 heifers and 40 bulls. As a matter of fact, it should be stated that of the first 1,000 heifers 370 of them were not breeding heifers, making really only 1,700 heifers that have been provided those people by the Gov- ernment. Eepresentative Burke. Was there not some spayed stock in there? Mr. Eddy. Yes; that was the point. Eepresentative Burke. You say that for eight years you have produced from stock about $240,000, and a large part of it the last five years Mr. Eddy. In net results; and we have, in addition to that, a de- tailed inventory taken on the range of $300,000 value, which makes a cattle showing of $500,000 returns and better. Eepresentative Burke. What were the returns of last year of which you have an account ? Mr. Eddy. About $48,000. Eepresentative Burke. How did that compare with the preceding year? Mr. Eddy. An increase, I think, of $6,000. Eepresentative Burke. And how that year over the year before? Mr. Eddy. About $38,000. Eepresentative Burke. Do you know whether or not this idea of purchasing stock and encouraging Indians along industrial lines, as we are rapidly developing, began anywhere else than upon this reservation ? Mr. Eddy. Eeally, I do not know that; it may, of course, have been done, but perhaps not distinctively as a stock proposition. Eepresentative Burke. Have you been advocating this policy, and have you appeared at any time before either the committee of the Senate or the committee of the House with reference to this propo- sition ? Mr. Eddy. I have recognized, Mr. Burke, that if the Congress would see fit to stock this reservation the Indians would be very soon altogether self-supporting. I have recollection in 1908 of having directly recommended to the attention of the commissioner that he provide 3,000 cows with calves at side, from funds to be made reim- bursable, indicating from the showing we had made that such appro- priations might be returned to the Treasury in a very short time, and these Indians would be entirely beyond need of gratuitous relief. Failing in that, I have interested myself in interesting Mr. Grin- nell and others to endeavor to get philanthropic funds, at 4 per cent if need be, to quickly stock this reservation, knowing that health, education, and the general advance of these Indians would come if we had the money to support the industries that were needed there. Eepresentative Burke. Have you not appeared subsequent to 1908 before some of the committees of Congress advocating this idea ? TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 176? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Mr. Abbott, Mr. Valentine, and Mr. Leupp have permitted me to boost for these propositions ever since I have been in the service, and I believe I have talked to you about these matters. I know I have talked with Mr. Mondell, Mr. Carter, Mr. Stephens, Senator Myers, and others of the Senate, so as to give them an impress of the value of the stocking proposition to the northern Cheyennes. Eepresentative Burke. Did not these Northern Cheyennes have an interest in the so-called $3,000,000 Sioux fund? Mr. Eddy. Their capital share was about $48,000. Eepresentative Burke. My question was : Didn't they have ? Mr. Eddy. They did. Representative Burke. Did not Congress recently— I think, per- haps, last year — authorize the withdrawing from the Treasury of their share of that fund for the purpose of adding it to the other funds of the Indians and increasing the herd of cattle on that reser- vation ? Mr. Eddy. They did. Eepresentative Burke. And what was that amount? Mr. Eddy. $48,000. Eepresentative Burke. Do you remember appearing before the Indian Committee of the House when you recommended and advo- cated that that be done? Mr. Eddy. I do, once or twice, on the petition of the Indians that we urged them to get behind four years previously. We showed them they could get 40 per cent rather than 4 per cent if they would put that money into cattle. Eepresentative Burke. How much money has the Government been appropriating annually for the last 10 years under the treaty of 1877? Mr. Eddy. $99,000 over all, to be divided between the Northern Cheyennes at Lame Deer and the Arapahoes at Wind River, out of which we got our pro rata share. We have 1,400 Indians; they have something over 700 Indians. Eepresentative Burke. I understand. How much has it been an- nually at this reservation? Mr. Eddy. About $53,000. Eepresentative Burke. What is going to be the outcome, in your opinion, if you continue this plan that has been adopted and which prevails there to-day with relation to the tribe ultimately becoming self-supporting; and if so, when? Mr. Eddy. I believe in six years we can take those Indians entirely out of the Treasury. , ia .,, Eepresentative Burke. Are you familiar with tne treaty ot i»i i ! Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Eepresentative Burke. What does it provide* Mr. Eddy. It provides that those Indians shall be supported by the Government until they are capable of self-support. Eepresentative Burke. Then there will be no obligation resting upon the Government under that treaty to continue the gratuity appropriations when they do become self-supporting? Mr. Eddy. None. Eepresentative Bukke. When was this reservation fenced i 1768 TONGUE EIVEE RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. About 10 years ago three-quarters of the reservation was fenced, and 8 years ago the last quarter. Representative Burke. How was that paid for? Mr. Eddy. The last quarter by a special act of Congress, the act of May 27, 1902. Representative Burke. The cattle that you say have been ranging there, owned by Mr. Taintor — do they run generally over the reser- vation in connection with the tribal herd ? Mr. Eddy. Mixed with the tribal herd — not the tribal herd; this is run individually in 460 separate brands now, but we hope to have it merged. Representative Burke. Is the reservation divided by fence? Mr. Eddy. Not by fence. Representative Burke. How do you keep the cattle separate? Mr. Eddy. We do not attempt to. Representative Burke. You have them ranging in together? Mr. Eddy. They range together. Representative Burke. And at the round-up time they are sepa- rated, I suppose, and when they are shipping they cut out their cattle which are branded ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir ; the permittee brings in his outfit, and we have our outfit. They all work together but feed apart. Representative Burke. Is it your intention to continue this leasing proposition indefinitely ? Mr. Eddy. I have always been against the leasing proposition, ex- cept as it was the second best thing. Representative Burke. If the tribal herd increases, I presume you will have to discontinue it ? Mr. Eddy. We have really made a provision in the present per- mit to reduce the number of lessee cattle, provided that Congress provides the money for additional cattle as asked. Representative Burke. How do you determine who the lessee is to be and what rate he is to pay ? Mr. Eddy. By competitive bids, opened in the Indian Office. Representative Burke. How long are those leases made for? Mr. Eddy. Now, three years ; formerly, one year. Representative Burke. Have you had any trouble on account of differences between the Indians and the employees of the cattle com- pany by reason of the fact that this lessee is in the reservation? Mr. Eddy. No great amount on that account, but they are troubled on their accounts with the permittees. Senator Lane. In what way? Mr. Eddy. Only last year we had three investigations resulting from the differences that arose between two partners on that reser- vation which cost us a great deal of money and which netted no good to the reservation and have stirred the Indians badly. Representative Burke. Differences between lessees? Mr. Eddy. Partners falling out themselves and calling upon the Government to settle their differences. Representative Burke. What differences? Mr. Eddy. One. permittee charged, through his foreman, that the other had put on some 1,300 head of cattle by stealth, and three in- vestigations were ordered to determine whether or not this was a TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1769 fact. The investigations determined really nothing; nothing could be proved. Representative Burke. Have you had any trouble with fire on that reservation? Mr. Eddy. We have been very fortunate in being able to suppress practically all fires as soon as started in the last eight years. Representative Burke. Have you had any fires started due to any feeling between Indians or the reservation against these permittees ? Mr. Eddy. None at all. The Indian feeling has been a good feel- ing. There have been no differences up until a year ago between whites and Indians that I have noticed. Representative Burke. Are all these Indians allotted ? Mr. Eddy. None of them. This is an unsurveyed reserve. Representative Burke. The only allotments then are these Mr. Eddy (interposing). Tentative allotments that the Indians are Representative Burke (continuing). These irrigible 20-acre tracts? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Pardon me, there was a large fire, Mr. Burke, about five years ago through the forest. Representative Burke. Of this amount that was expended at the boarding school, does that include subsistence and clothing? Mr. Eddy. No ; this amount is the salary — the ordinary salary list that obtains at most boarding schools. Senator Lane. These cattle, you say, run together on the range? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How can you separate the increase in the stock of the Indians from the lessees's cattle ? Mr. Eddy. We provided against that by determining at the start that the lessee should not have anything but steers on the reservation. Senator Lane. So he gets no increase? Mr. Eddy. He gets no increase. And one of the provisions of the contract is that all mavericks upon the range are Indian-owned cattle. Representative Burke. There is one other question I wanted to ask. To what extent do these farmers perform any services in con- nection with the cattle of the Indians or having to do with branding or rounding up, or in any other respect? Mr. Eddy. In the past, previous to two years ago, when farming was less active than it is at the present time, we used the farmers to a very considerable extent in connection with the stock work. We have not had these Indian line riders except for about a year. This has been to turn the Indians into their own work. Representative Burke. Did we not use to make an appropriation specifically for a line rider? Mr. Eddy. Two line riders. That was because of representations that there was a great deal of cattle killing down in that particular corner of the reserve where they were supposed to ride. Senator Lane. What is the percentage of full bloods as to breed ? Mr. Eddy. That is shown by stating that there are probably not more than 10 intermarried whites on the reserve. It is practically a full-blood proposition. . . Senator Lane. What kind of tribal organization do they have? Do they hold councils? Do they have a business committee? 1770 TONGUE EIVEE RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. They have a business committee. Senator Lane. "Do" they take an interest in the business affairs? Mr. Eddy. They really do. Everything is put to them of interest to the tribe. Senator Lane. You have a field matron? Mr. Eddy. One field matron. Senator Lane. What is her work? Mr. Eddy. Serving as best she can to accomplish what good she can with the Indian women. Senator Lane. How does she go about that work? Mr. Eddy. She is provided with a saddle equipment and a buggy. Senator Lane. She visits the Indians in their homes ? Mr. Eddy. She visits the Indians in their homes — a very indus- trious woman. Senator Lane. What does she teach them? Mr. Eddy. As best she can among those backward people, that it is well to clean their houses, to care for their babies, to wash their clotheSj and she encourages them in the use of funds they may have. Senator Lane. You were talking about tepees a while ago. You understand a tepee, then, to be any kind of tent? Mr. Eddy. I really do not, Senator, but it is generally used that way. Senator Lane. The Indians, you say, are virtuous ? Mr. Eddy. They are. Senator Lane. Were they always so? Mr. Eddy. They always have been so. Senator Lane. Even when they lived in the tepees? Mr. Eddy. Rather better so. Senator Lane. Then you do not think that if they moved back into the tepees— I mean tepees, not tents — that they would suffer in any way ? Their health would, perhaps, improve and their morals would be just as good ? Mr. Eddy. No; you know there is a general deterioration — there must be always among a people subject to the strictures of reserva- tion life. Senator Lane. I mean, it would be as good as it would be in one- room cabins? Mr. Eddy. Oh, as good as in a single-room cabin; but we aim, Senator, to have two or three rooms, and separated, so that they may be easily cleaned. Senator Lane. With regard to goiter, has that been on the increase under Government control? Mr. Eddy. I suspect they always tended toward goiter; I do not know that. Senator Lane. Did you ever inquire ? Mr. Eddy. I did not happen to inquire. Senator Lane. I did not know how it was either. Now you say they have not been specifically allotted? Mr. Eddy. They have never been allotted— never been surveyed. Senator Lane. I thought you said there were 20-acre allotments. Mr. Eddy. By that I man we arranged for the Indians to take tentative allotments, which, doubtless, ultimately will be awarded to them as their home sites. Senator Lane. Twenty acres of land that is irrigible? TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1771 Mr. Eddy. Yes. Senator Lane. And has water available ? There is a good deal of surplus land there — is there, do you think ? Mr. Eddy. We would like very much to stock it. Senator Lane. If you stocked it, how many head of stock would it carry? Mr. Eddy. We think we could carry 30,000 head with winter feed- ing. That would give them an increase of nearly $30,000 a year. Senator Lane. Are those Indians increasing in numbers ? Mr. Eddy. Oh, they are holding their own. Senator Lane. There are about as many deaths as there are births ? Mr. Eddy. About a stand-off. There is a great deal of infant mortality. Senator Lane. What is that due to — summer complaint? Mr. Eddy. Well, I suppose, in large part to the fact that the Indian mother there among those Indians will give the child watermelon rind, perhaps, or other indigestible things. Senator Lane, That will produce indigestion ? Mr. Eddy. I think it is that more than anything else. Mrs. Latjea J. Kellogg. May I ask Mr. Eddy a question ? Senator Lane. Certainly. Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. I want to ask Mr. Eddy how many fam- ilies he has on the reservation? Mr. Eddy. About 400. Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. Does one field matron, do all the work for the 400 families? Mr. Eddy. Unhappily we have but one. Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. You said a while ago there were great dis- tances between various families. Mr. Eddy. Yes. Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. Does she cover all that? Mr. Eddy. Oh, no. She only aims to work within the radius that would be tributary to one station. Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. She goes from band to band then at dif- ferent seasons of the year? Mr. Eddy. No ; she stays at the agency and works the country that would be tributary to the agency location. Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. Do you not consider, Mr. Eddy— I am in- terested in your ideas— that this field matron's work is the most practical social conservation work that can be done on the reserva- Mr Eddy. I can not think of anything that will be more helpful to the Indians than the spread of the field matron service where you get actual social-service workers. Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. Has that ever been suggested, do you Mr ' Eddy. I have recommended, I think, that we have five field matrons at our place. I believe in that sort of thing, Mrs. Kellogg. Mrs Laura J. Kellogg. In my knowledge of Indians, I think that is the most effective thing there is in the way of really practical social service. Mr. Eddy. Surely. Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. What is her salary I Mr. Eddy. $720 per annum. 1772 TONGUE EIVEE RESERVATION. Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. Do you consider that adequate to get a woman — for instance, a woman who has had training in domestic science ? Mr. Eddy. I do not consider it adequate. A thousand dollars would appear to me to be a standard that would be respectable. Mrs. John M. Simpson. May I ask Mr. Eddy a question ? Senator Lane. Yes. Mrs. John M. Simpson. We had some experience in social work which we found very successful in Oklahoma. We did not go in and tell them they must clean up their houses, but we went in and told them we were going to hold a party at their house— perhaps tell them through an interpreter. My husband was there in the interest of agriculture, and I believe I may take the liberty of referring to the Member here who, I think, said once that my husband was the first, or among the first, to introduce agriculture in that State. We would hold a meeting and call it an agricultural club or the Indian farmers' club, or some other name that sounded impressive to them. We would advertise it in the paper, and send them the paper. The children could usually read the paper. We would tell them what time it was going to be. They called in their neighbors — their tenants, who were often white people — and they cleaned up their houses, baked their cakes, cooked their turkeys, and set their table, and we had a photographer there and we had a picture taken. We usually had the babies in front. And there was nothing they gloried in so much as to have one of those pictures on the wall somewhere. We found that had a stronger influence, a greater influence in tending toward a better way of living than any other line of work we took up. We took that up voluntarily ; it was my propo- sition really, and the ladies took as much pride in preparing for that reception as many of our Cabinet officers do. Senator Lane. Now, your idea is to stock that reservation with cattle, and that it will carry 30,000 head ? Mr. Eddy. Thirty thousand head ; you will have to eliminate horses when you get that many cattle. Senator Lane. How many acres of that land have you that you could raise feed on for winter ? Mr. Eddy. We believe 30,000 acres. Senator Lane. You think you have 30,000 acres that you could raise alfalfa on? Mr. Eddy. Good feed. Much of that is high-divide land that might raise alfalfa. It certainly would raise grain. Senator Lane. You would have to farm 30,000 acres, or about that, in order to carry your stock through the winter? Mr. Eddy. We would ; but in many places we could cut wild hay and spread it in the corrals about the reserve, convenient for feeding. Senator Lane. That is crowding it, of course, to the limit? Mr. Eddy. Not with winter feeding, you see. It would be if it was run as a straight range proposition. Senator Lane. You issue rations how often ? Mr. Eddy. Once a month. Senator Lane. They do not raise enough to subsist them now, do they ? You were telling me that before. Mr. Eddy. Hardly enough. They may this year. Senator Lane. They never have ? TONGUE EIVEB RESERVATION. 1773 Mr. Eddy. They never have. Senator Lane. Now, Mr. Bostwick — I notice his name there, in the automobile business — who is he ? Mr. Eddy. Mr. Bostwick was a contractor. Senator Lane. Where is he now ? Mr. Eddy. At the Crow Agency, running a sawmill. Senator Lane. At the Crow Agency ? Mr. Eddy. Crow Reservation. Senator Lane. Is he any kin to Mr. Bostwick the cattleman ? Mr. Eddy. No kin ; this a Black Hills man. Senator Lane. You said you were rationing about 1,300 Indians? Mr. Eddy. Practically all the Indians. Senator Lane. And the beef contract, you said, was owned by whom? Mr. Eddy. Willis M. Spear. Senator Lane. Who is he ? Mr. Eddy. He is a wealthy cattleman residing in Sheridan, Wyo., one of the lessees on the Crow Reservation. Senator Lane. How do you get beef from him? Does he drive it in and butcher it there ? Mr. Eddy. He brings in beef monthly for several months, and then the winter beef is brought in in December. Senator Lane. And then frozen ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. It might be interesting to know that the Indians pledged themselves about two months ago to eat no more beef, believing that they can not afford to, and that they ought to put that into other subsistence to attack that tribal stock-growing proposition. Representative Burke. I wish you would develop how long they have been using that cold-storage proposition ? Senator Lane. Will you answer that? Mr. Eddy. A few months. Representative Burke. They were killing monthly before that? Mr. Eddy. For the last five years we have been slaughtering in December or January, carrying just as much as we could through, to save all the winter feed we could, and also to prevent shrinkage. We have always bought cows, because the Indians boil their beef and ship the better steers to market. It was not a 'good business proposition to buy cows from the Indians. • Senator Lane. You mean to say that you buy beef of Mr. Spear, who raises it over on the Crow Reservation? Is that right? Mr. Eddy. I imagine he raises it there. Senator Lane. Yes ; he is one of the men that have a large lot of stock there. He ships it over to your reservation, and at the same time you sell cattle of your own to the market? Mr Eddy. Yes ; we raise much better cattle than are raised any- where in the country, and command the highest prices on the Chi- cago market, and that being the case it pays us to buy the cheaper cows, which the Indians use and boil, rather than use this expensive beef Senator Lane. How much do you pay for beef? Mr. Eddy. Now, 6 cents. Senator. Lane. What do you get for your cattle? Mr. Eddy. Seven and eight cents. 1774 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. Senator Lane. So you make a profit by selling your own and buying the other man's ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Of course, 6 cents is only the recent price. Eepresentative Carter. You only get 7 and 8 cents ? Mr. Eddy. We have got 8-}, but generally 7 and 8. Eepresentative Burke. That is a good price for grass cattle. Mr. Eddy. They are all grass cattle. We are now feeding them some grain. You mentioned the superintendent's house and the social service work. In connection with that I think it ought to be known that, although that house represents a considerable cost, it was built very largely as a social center for Indians and whites on the reservation. _ Eepresentative Carter. How many Indians have you on this reservation ? Mr. Eddy. About 1.400. Eepresentative Carter. How many acres of land are there in the reservation ? Mr. Eddy. About 460,000 acres. Eepresentative Carter. How much of it is in the so-called 20-acre allotments ? Mr. Eddy. Along the Tongue Eiver ditch there are about 57 of those 20-acre allotments. Eepresentative Carter. Would there be sufficient irrigable land to give each Indian a 20-acre allotment? Mr. Eddy. There are about 7,000 acres of irrigable land on the reservation that it would take about $300,000 to develop. It is very- expensive. It runs for 35 miles, and the canal would be for about a mile parallel to the river. Eepresentative Carter. How many acres have you now that is being used for pasturage? Mr. Eddy. Four hundred thousand, about. Eepresentative Carter. That will pasture about how many cattle? Mr. Eddy. About 30,000. We have the best grazing land, probably, in Montana. Eepresentative Carter. Do you think it is a better plan to have an Indian tribal herd than to have the cattle individualized and let every man own his own portion of them? Mr. Eddy. "Ultimately the Indians must individually own their cattle. We have planned, however, to stock the reservation, so that when that time came the reserve would be stocked with cattle, and it would be an unanswerable argument to those who wanted to diminish the reservation. Now, it is readily seen that if we tribalize the herd we can arrange for winter feeding by buying every pound of grain and hay that the Indians raise from the sales. That gives every Indian a liberal mar- ket, and the value, you see, will come back to the Indian again when the cattle are sold, because the stock will be so much heavier and better. And to get more money immediately — which has been our work and aim there — we have felt it best, and the commissioner has believed it best, to tribalize the herd under the situation we now have. Eepresentative Carter. How many have individual cattle now? Mr. Eddy. About 400 to 450. TONGUE EIVEE RESERVATION. 1775 Representative Gakter. And your policy now is to take away those cattle they have individually and place them all in a tribal herd? Mr. Eddy. That is the plan; and that having been presented to the Indians, they are practically unanimous in approval of the idea. Representative Carter. How are those Indians getting along that have their own small herds? Mr. Eddy. Fairly well ; but of course the Indian is not in the cat-' tie business as he is in the horse business. His relation with his horses is intimate. With cattle it is not an intimate relation. Representative Carter. I take it from what you have said you think the Indians have not yet reached the point where they could be trusted to have the cattle individualized ? Mr. Eddy. They really have not. These Indians are backward. Representative Carter. Do you not think these Indians who have their individual herds might take a step backward when you bring them into a tribal ownership ? Mr. Eddy. Really I do not, because the horse herds will remain as individual property, and they will take a step forward in that they will go to work upon their farms and have a market for their labor. Representative Carter. Are these herds horses or cattle, or both? Mr. Eddy. They are both. Representative Carter. How much have you in the tribal herd now? Mr. Eddy. None in the tribal herd ; they are all individualized. Representative Carter. How much will it cost to build up this tribal herd that you are speaking of ? Mr. Eddy. We had hoped — we did present to the commissioner a proposition that $200,000 be at once set aside to fully stock the range at once. But we have $48,000 worth of cattle that will come this spring — 1,100 head, about—and the provision of the bill calls for a $50,000 purchase of cattle. We think this, with the 6,000 we have, Mr. Carter, will put us, as I say, very well along at once. Representative Carter. There is $50,000 in the present bill ? Mr. Eddy. There is $50,000 in the bill for this purpose. Representative Carter. That, you think, will be sufficient for the present wants ? Mr. Eddy. I would rather have $200,000. Representative Carter. I would rather have $200,000 than $50,000 myself, but that is not the question. • Will the $50,000 enable you to do what you want to do ? Mr. Eddy. Not all we want to do. Representative Carter. But it will enable you to start the system ? Mr. Eddy. It will enable us to start the system. Representative Carter. I am not very strongly in favor of tribal ownership, I am frank to say, if we can get the ownership in the in- dividual, because my opinion is that the hope of the Indian is to give him individual responsibility at the earliest possible moment. Mr. Eddy. I believe in that generally, Mr. Carter. You see, if the Indians keep their herds down upon their small ranches, caring for them in the winter at home, there is so little pasturage about the home acreage that the cattle are likely to die there through a short- age of. forage, and once being started on hay, if there is not enough in 1776 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. that small place it will go hard with them. Tribally we could put stacks all about the reservation and care for them, we think, better. Representative Cartbe. What reservation is this ? Mr. Eddy. This is Tongue River — the Northern Cheyenne In- dians — in Montana, Rosebud County. Representative Carter. How long do you have to feed there? Mr. Eddy. We feed probably three months — January, Febraury, and March. Representative Carter. Can you get along with that little feed? Mr. Eddy. Yes ; we do not have so much snow there. Representative Carter. The cattle will go through on the range, on grazing for eight months, will they? Mr. Eddy. They really have always gone for 12 months. They have never been winter fed. Representative Carter. Under what act were these 20- acre allot- ments that you speak of set aside? Mr. Eddy. No act ; just an arbitrary arrangement. Representative Carter. Then there are no arrangements made? Mr. Eddy. Not definitely. Representative Carter. How were the homes placed on them? Mr. Eddy. By the Indians themselves. Representative Carter. In case of death of one of the occupants of one of these allotments, how do you arrange about the descent of that? Mr. Eddy. That is determined by the good nature that prevails among those people, and their willingness to allow the next oldest supporter in the family to take the tentative right. There is no legal status to the proposition. Senator Lane. Now, you were talking about putting those Indians into the stock business, putting 30,000 head, if you could, on the reservation, putting them into that business exclusively. Do you not think you would be running a terrible risk there? There might come a hard winter, like the Blackfeet had in which they lost pretty nearly all of their cattle, five or six years ago, and you would be in bad shape there if you got a winter with 40 below, and blizzards, and your cattle drifting before the storm. You might make a heavy loss some winter, and might bankrupt those Indians. Now, is it not a fact, Mr. Eddy, that those Indians are really horse- men, and they would do well- raising, say, a good breed of these English coach or percheron horses? They like a horse, and a horse likes the Indians. You know what they will do with their little cayuse ; give them a good horse and they will do better. And a horse will paw through the snow for grass when a steer can not. You had better look into that carefully. Would they not do better with borses than with cattle? You have the cattle business to teach them, whereas they have been horsemen for years. Mr. Eddy. As I stated, the Indians are more seriously on their own account in the horse business. Senator Lane. That is their natural inclination? Mr. Eddy. Their natural bent. Senator Lane. Would it not be a little safer for them, and better, perhaps, to take that into consideration? For that thing which a man loves he will do well, and that which he has not so much interest in he will not always succeed with. TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1777 Mr. Eddy. As evidence of the interest I have taken in that I might show you contracts I have secured of outside stockmen to put in horses and mares and get his pay in colts from the Indians. Senator Lane. How does it work? Mr. Eddt. Wonderfully well. I asked Mr. Linnen one morning to go out with me to inspect mares and the proposition I had up, because I realized it would be looked upon as a grafting proposition, and I invited his opinion as to whether or not it was a safe thing, and I am glad to say that he looked upon it as a good proposition. Senator Lane. I will say I would not put up much money to stake you to put those Indians into the cattle business, but I would not be afraid to back those Indians in a horse proposition. Mr. Eddy. That is very interesting, Senator, but you know two years ago — three winters ago we had the worst winter in 40 years, and although the losses were as heavy as you said they would be outside the reserve, inside — because the conditions are so different — although we did lose considerable, and I could have made a better showing had we not had that hard winter, we did not lose to any such degree as one would expect. Senator Lane. What was the percentage of loss among horses, as compared with cattle, during that hard winter ? Mr. Eddy. Of course, very much less. Senator Lane. And does not that tell the story ? Mr. Eddy. No; I do not think so, completely; because we did not do any feeding that winter. Senator Lane. You fed neither the horses nor the cattle? Mr. Eddy. Yes; we did feed the horses. The Indians care for their horses. Senator Lane. Won't they always do that? Mr. Eddy. Yes. You see, under the new plan we plan to feed the cattle. Senator Lane. Did you ever feed cattle, and did you ever feed horses? Have you been out on a winter day and had to feed cattle when it was 30 or 40 below ? Mr. Eddy. Of course, we fed cattle there in the winter before we had the winter storage. Senator Lane. It is very hard work, and not the kind of work the Indian likes, whereas he will keep his horses pretty close around. And a horse will live out when it is 50 below, and live where a steer will die. Horses have been known to winter in the Koyukuk coun- try in Alaska above the Arctic Circle, and get fat. Mr. Eddy. These pony mares, worth only $15 or $20, will produee a colt on the first cross that would be worth $50 or $60 at two or three years old. Senator Lane. And if you take a better breed of horses Mr. Eddy. They are worth more. . Senator Lane. Percheron horses will live out that way in Alaska. I would like to have you take that into consideration. (At this point Senator Kobinson took the chair.) Senator Robinson (presiding). You say these Indians are all en- gaged in farming, practically ? Mr. Eddy. They are now. Senator Robinson. What number of them receive rations? 35601— pt 14—14- 1778 TONGUE EIVEE RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. Practically all of the Indians. The Chairman. How does it happen if they are farming that they all have to have rations ? Mr. Eddy. We feel the money is best expended for rations, Senator, to subsist them while they are being encouraged to develop as far- mers and stockmen. The Chairman. What amount of rations does each Indian draw? Mr. Eddy. Practically $25 worth per capita per year. The Chairman. What does that consist of? Mr. Eddy. Beef, bacon, beans, flour, corn meal The Chairman. How long have you been in charge of that agency ? I suppose you have already stated. Mr. Eddy. Seven and one-half years. The Chairman. What is the amount of rations now issued com- pared with what was being issued when you took charge? Mr. Eddy. When I took charge of the agency 800,000 pounds of beef were authorized each year. Last year we issued but 350,000 pounds and next year we will issue no beef. The Chairman. Why ? Mr. Eddy. Because we have enlisted the interest of the Indians to forego the use of all beef, as it costs too much, and to take other cheaper substitutes while it is necessary and proper to give them rations at all. Senator Lane. What will those substitutes be ? Mr. Eddy. It will be flour, bacon, corn meal, coffee, sugar, baking powder, salt Senator Lane. What will you use to take the place of beef ? Mr. Eddy. The flour. Senator Lane. It will not do it. Mr. Eddy. Of course, we plan to have butcher shops upon the reservation, so that with the increasing return from the stock busi- ness the Indians can buy at the lowest possible rate such meat as they desire to buy. Senator Lane. You have tuberculosis among those Indians. I suppose 100 per cent of them, almost, are tubercular ? Mr. Eddy. Most of them. Senator Lane. None of them free entirely. If you are going to substitute flour for beef I warn you, as a physician, to beware and to get something more nutritious. Mr. Eddy. The Indian Office, Senator, has taken the position that we should not issue to exceed 150,000 pounds of beef and that is almost negligible. It would not give more than 3 pounds a month, you see, per capita. Senator Lane. Even that would be better than doing entirely away with it and using flour in place of it. If you put in lentils • Mr. Eddy. We have beans, pardon me. Senator Lane. Or cheese to take the place of it, you will make an approach. The Chairman. What number of them were farming when you went there ? Mr. Eddy. Very few of them. The Chairman. What is the total area of land cultivated now by these Indians? Mr. Eddy. About 3,000 acres. TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1779 The Chairman. What is the number of them ? Mr. Eddy. One thousand four hundred. The Chairman. What crops do they grow ? ™T' ^ DDY - Alfalfa, corn, potatoes, barley, garden produce The Chairman. Are any of them self-supporting ? Mr. Eddy. Some few are self-supporting. The Chairman. How many and who are they, if the number is not too great ? Mr. Eddy. Perhaps 20. The Chairman. Among that 1,400, only 20 are self-supporting? Mr. Eddy. I do not think more than 20. Representative Carter. Are any of the 20 being issued rations ? Mr. Eddy. I believe we are issuing to those 20. The Chairman. You are issuing rations to those that are self- supporting? What is the object of that? Mr. Eddy. There is $25 extended to them, and we have felt, as a matter of policy, there being so few that were self-supporting, that the good feeling that came generally because of that would make it well to put them on that basis until we have funds enough to cut them more generally. They get so little, of course, anyway. The Chairman. How many forest guards have you there? Mr. Eddy. Two. The Chairman. What are their names? Mr, Eddy. Mr. Postle and Mr. Hendersen. The Chairman. Is that the number you have had throughout your administration ? Mr. Eddy. I had one other — Mr. Adams. The Chairman. What were the circumstances connected with his employment ? Mr. Eddy. Mr. Adams is a brother-in-law of the former assistant commissioner, Mr. Abbott. On the occasion of his visit to the agency in the fall of 1911 I asked him if he could name a financial clerk. He stated that a brother-in-law, Mr. Adams, he thought, would serve, but that he was a man of out-door experience and that, though he had been a merchant, he believed that he desired eventually to get out-of-door employment. He had had experience in the lumber busi- ness. On his recommendation I was pleased to recommend that Mr. Adams come to us. The Chairman. Was he in the service ? Mr. Eddy. He was not. The Chairman. How did he get into the service ? Mr. Eddy. That is a non-civil-service appointment. The Chairman. Financial clerk? Mr. Eddy. Financial clerk. Senator Lane. Have you a financial clerk there now ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. , The Chairman. What was afterwards done with Mr. Adams ' Mr. Eddy. Mr. Adams was later appointed forest guard. The Chaieman. Was he paid a per diem ? Mr Eddy. He was paid a per diem of $2 a day. The Chairman. Were the other forest guards paid that? Mr. Eddy. They were not. , ,, ,, The Chairman. Why was he paid a per diem when the others were not? 1780 TONGTJE RIVER RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. At the time of the appointment of Mr. Adams there was present upon the reservation a supervising forester and, at the same time, two representatives of the Bureau of Entomology, who were investigating the depredations of the mountain-pine beetle. It was considered that the forest value of $900,000 was jeopardized. Mr. Dunston stated we should have a man whose particular busi- ness it would be to cooperate with the Bureau of Entomology in suppressing this infestation. Mr. Adams having had this lumber experience, he was consulted, and it was determined among us that he would be the proper man. I recommended that he be appointed at a salary that had been previously authorized without any knowl- edge upon my part for a forest assistant at $1,500, with travel ex- penses. I recommended that Mr. Adams be appointed, having the concurrence of the supervising forester, and he was appointed. Ad- vice came to us by wire asking if it would serve as well to have a forest guard appointed at $1,000 and a per diem of $2 a day. As the matter originated with the Indian Office and the office was aware of all the circumstances, I stated that it would be proper, and he was duly appointed by the office to fill that position upon that under- standing. The Chairman. You say he had a field man, and had had some experience in the lumber business ? How long did he serve as finan- cial clerk? Mr. Eddy. About four months. The Chairman. Why was he transferred from that position to the position of forest guard? Mr. Eddy. Because of the desire upon the part of the Forestry Division to have upon the reservation a man to cooperate with the Bureau of Entomology. The Chairman. What was the character of his services as financial clerk? Were they satisfactory? Mr. Eddy. He served fairly well, but I recognized he would make a better outside man than inside man. The Chairman. Why? Mr. Eddy. There is so much detail and regulation in the Indian Service that I find a man from the outside is not as well adapted to that as a man that is trained. The Chairman. You knew that when you recommended that he be employed? Mr. Eddy. Not altogether. The Chairman. You knew that he was an outdoor man and had bad experience as financial clerk? Mr. Eddy. Not as financial clerk; but I knew he had been in the banking business and in the mercantile business, according to his brother-in-law. The Chairman. What did he do as forest guard ? Mr. Eddy. He cooperated with the Bureau of Entomology in sup- pressing this infestation. The Chairman. Well, what did he do? Mr. Eddy. He traveled about the range, inspecting the work of the men who were peeling some 10,000 trees — one of the measures that is adopted by the bureau in this control work — and he assisted in the arrangement of the lumber piles, we having had a contract to saw up some 5,000 feet of lumber. Mr. Adams supervised the burning of TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1781 the slabs. at the mill — one of the provisions of this control work, that the insects in the slabs might be burned. The Chairman. How long did he continue in that service, in the suppression of the insects? Mr. Eddy. Throughout his time. The Chairman, flow long? Mr. Eddy. From March, I believe, until the 1st of February fol- lowing. Senator Lane. I would like to ask you there, what is the supervi- sion that is necessary to take care of a pile of burning slabs? Mr. Eddy. Why, the slabs, of course, were thrown off this runway close to the mill. That is, of course, a dangerous proposition at best, at any time, close to a mill, and fire protection is afforded by supervision. Senator Lane. Was that all? Just fire protection, to keep the mill from catching fire ? Mr. Eddy. Not exclusively; but to see, of course, that they were all burned, and that the slabs were run into the pile and not taken out and put upon other piles of slabs that might come from trees that might not be infested. Senator Lane. Did you separate them? Mr. Eddy. They were separated, of course. Senator Lane. What did you do with those that were not infested? Mr. Eddy. They were burned, more or less, or carted off. Senator Lane. They were all burned? Mr. Eddy. No. Senator Lane. What did you do with those that were not burned I Mr. Eddy. Some carted to the agency for wood. Senator Lane. Were you ever around sawmills much ? Mr. Eddy. Not much. We have had three there. Senator Lane. You have seen slab piles burning? Mr. Eddy. Yes ; but not in any great western way. Senator Lane. It does not take much supervision to keep track of a pile of slabs, does it? They do not have a superintendent tor it* Mr. Eddy. Of course, that was an incident of his work. Senator Lane. That was rather a queer kind of job. Mr. Eddy. That is as I understand it. The Chairman. Do the forest guards all live there at the agency ( Mr. Eddy. Yes. . , ^ , . ,, a ,, The Chairman. What part of the time do they spend in the held, and what area of land do they watch over? Mr Eddy. The forest guards, while they have been there, have been employed as helpers at the mills, being paid additional. They have also assisted in such work as assisting the Indians in th T£e f SS£2f." As a matter of fact then they do not stay out in the forest and run the lines and look after the forest < Mr. Eddy. We have so many line riders that do the same sort of work. ,,11 o The Chairman. How many of them have you i Mr Eddy. About eight. , 4 The Chairman. Why do you call these men forest guards? Mr Eddy. That is the designation, of course, that employees paid from that have been run under. 1782 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. The Chairman. Do you understand that throughout the service forest guards perform similar services to those which are performed by forest guards at your agency ? Mr. Eddy. I do not know the general practice, Senator. The Chairman. Has it been true ever since you have been at that agency that they worked about the mill there ? Mr. Eddy. They have had general service — performed general service. The Chairman. Ever since you have been there? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir; including, of course, particularly mill service whenever there was mill service to perform. The Chairman. Did you ever know of a forest guard other than Mr. Adams receiving a per diem ? Mr. Eddy. I did not. The Chairman. He was afterwards transferred to Shoshone, Wash. ? Mr. Eddy. To Shoshone, Wash. The Chairman. Do you know why that was? Mr. Eddy. There were no school facilities at Lame Deer, and Mr. Adams had three children of school age. The work in the timber was through at Lame Deer, the control work on this insect infesta- tion was through, and it was not desirable to hold him longer there. Senator Lane. Are you free of that beetle now ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir; that was a very successful campaign. Dr. Hopkins says it was the most successful of any experiment he has known in the country. The Chairman. Now, it appears from the records that you were absent during the period from April 1, 1912, to September 30, 1913; about 242 days absent from the reservation — being 20 days at Crow, 32 days at the training school at Busby, and 190 days otherwise absent. How did it happen you were gone so much ? Mr. Eddy. Might I refer to a record I have here? The Chairman. Yes ; if you can not state it from memory. Mr. Eddy. I can not [producing memoranda] . For the fiscal year 1913, or beginning with the first quarter, from August 23 to August 25, purchasing stallions for Indians in Sheri- dan, Wyo., under authority 85168, 1912. From July 6, 1912, to 19th, consulting with and escorting liquor officer to Sheridan, Wyo. ■ Senator Lane. How many stallions did you purchase? Mr. Eddt. On that occasion, in the contracts had with Mr. Selway, copies of which are here, I have purchased at different times different numbers. I do not just recall how many. Senator Lane. Did you open bids for them ? Mr. Eddy. No; in that case this was a private arrangement whereby a wealthy stockman going out of the horse business was willing, under the terms of the contract, to afford the Indians the opportunity of getting the studs. Perhaps you would like to read that peculiar contract [referring to memoranda.] Consulting with and escorting liquor officer to Sheridan, Wyo., authority 85186, 1912. August 30 to September 5, accompanying cattle shipment to mar- ket at Chicago. I might state I have made it an invariable rule to TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1783 accompany the cattle to Chicago. There are so many, brands it is highly desirable that each individual brand be clearly designated so that the Indians will get their money. Authority 81036, 1912. August 20 to 21, consulting with the Assistant Commissioner at Crow Agency, authority 85168, 1912. That was a visit that the com- missioner made to Crow Agency. August 28 and 29, consulting relative to said transaction on behalf of the Northern Cheyenne Indians. Authority 85168, 1912. September 20 to 22, to arrange for the printing of the programs for the Northern Cheyenne Industrial Fair. Authority 85168, 1912. Representative Carter. How long was that? Mr. Eddy. Two days. Sheridan is 80 miles away. Representative Carter. How did you go up there? Mr. Eddy. By automobile. The Government car, you know. I might state that on the occasion of every visit I have made away from the agency on a purpose like that I have made it my business to acquaint myself with the possibilities of purchasing stock. We are so far inland that it is only by getting out and mixing with the local interests that we are able to do business in a large way for those Indians [referring to memoranda]. October 4 to November 1. October trip to Pumpkin Creek to select mares, and trips to Miles City and Butte in connection with insane Indians in the Warm Springs Asylum. Authority 85168, 1912. November 23 to December 19, conferring with the Acting Com- missioner in the interests of the Northern Cheyennes, and a confer- ence with Dr. George Bird Grinnell at New York, concerning legisla- tion affecting the Northern Cheyenne Indians. Authority 124409 and authority 9553, 1913. Representative Carter. How long was that? Mr. Eddy. From November 23 to December 19. Representative Carter. Twenty-six days? Mr. Eddy. Twenty-six days. The Chairman. Did you go to Omaha and to Lincoln during any of those absences from the reservation? Mr. Edd:t. On the occasion of my return to the reservation. The Chairman. Were you making any of these trips in the interest of any candidate for Commissioner of Indian Affairs ? Mr. Eddy. Not at all, sir. The Chairman. Did you take any active interest in working up a sentiment for any candidate for commissioner? Mr. Eddy. In a small way, I had hoped to receive recognition on personal accouni^-a small candidacy for the position of assistant commissioner. The Chairman. Was that the object of some of your visits, to pro- mote your own cadidacy for assistant commissioner? Mr. Eddy. In no way. The file of indorsements lodged with the Secretary, I think, consists of six letters from private individuals. The Chairman. I asked you if during the occasion of this ab- sence of 223 days Mr. Eddy. For a year and a half. The Chairman. Two hundred and forty-two days— the period which I indicated a while ago— during that time were you advocating any candidate for commissioner? Mr. Eddy. Not as a special object of any trip. 1784 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. The Chairman. Were you advocating a candidate for commis- sioner? I did not ask anything about a special object; I asked you if you were on those trips advocating a candidate for commissioner. Mr. Eddy. I was favorable to the retention of the then acting commissioner. The Chairman. I did not ask you whom you were favorable to; I asked you if you were advocating a candidate. The charge has been made that a part of your absence from your reservation for this long period was occasioned by the fact that the Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs had called you to Wash- ington, and sent or permitted you to go to divers places, including New York, Omaha, and Lincoln, with the implied understanding that while you were there transacting other business, perhaps, you were attempting also to work up a sentiment for him. While you were in New York seeing Dr. Grinnell did you discuss with him, or did the question arise of the propriety of Mr. Abbott being appointed Commissioner of Indian Affairs? Mr. Eddy. It is probable that I did, Senator. The Chairman. How long did you remain in New York? Mr. Eddy. I think the record will show possibly three days. The Chairman. You were gone from your reservation 26 days on that trip. How did it happen that a man in New York — Dr. Grinnell— was so important in legislation or affairs relating to the Northern Cheyenne Indians? What did he have to do with the Northern Cheyenne Indians? Mr. Eddy. Dr. Grinnell has been a constant worker in behalf of the Northern Cheyenne Indians for 23 years. He has appeared here consistently at his own expense, advocating legislation in behalf of these Indians for 16 years. The Chairman. What legislation were you discussing? Mr. Eddy. At that time legislation particularly affecting a reim- bursable item of $100,000 for the purchase of cattle, and also affect- ing a $48,000 item that had been in the bill for two years, and, moreover, to take up with him a plan we had been discussing for many years to raise 4 per cent philanthropic capital in New York in the event Congress did not see fit to make appropriation. The Chairman. Had he been directly connected with the admin- istration of the affairs of these Indians at any time ? Mr. Eddy. He has served as commissioner, I think, for several Presidents The Chairman. On the board of commissioners ? Mr. Eddy. No, sir; as private commissioner at times on several important commissions affecting the Indians in your State, Mr. Burke, and the Blackfeet The Chairman. I do not know what you mean as private com- missioner. Mr. Eddy. He has been designated to do private work for Presi- dent Cleveland, for instance, in the settlement of matters of dispute on some of the reservations. He has been called into consultation by Mr. Roosevelt, as I understand it, for some purpose. The Chairman. And you- went to New York to talk to him about a reimbursable appropriation Congress should make to buy stock for these Indians? TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1785 Mr. Eddy. Not only this time, Senator, but four years ago also under Mr. Leupp's administration or Mr. Valentine's. The Chairman. You made another trip, then? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir ; that entered into my accounts in the same way. The Chairman. How many visits did you make to Omaha and to Lincoln during this period I have mentioned? Mr. Eddy. One, as I recall, coming and going on the occasion of my visit to and from Washington. The Chairman. Did you discuss the appointment of a commis- sioner or assistant commissioner on those trips ? Mr. Eddy. I believe I did, sir. The Chairman. Did you on your other trips that you made during that period, or at or near the time a commissioner was to be ap- pointed, discuss the matter wherever you went ? Mr. Eddy. I did discuss it, as a matter of interest, but not as a matter of particular interest. The Chairman. You were in the civil service? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you have authority from Assistant Commis- sioner Abbott to present his claims for appointment as commissioner? Mr. Eddy. No, sir. All acts were upon my own initiative, Senator. The Chairman. Did you inform him that you were doing that ? Mr. Eddy. He was aware of it. The Chairman. Did you communicate it to him by letter, or tele- gram, or communicate with him regarding the matter while you were engaged in it? Mr. Eddy. I may have done it — not by telegram; possibly as an incident of correspondence. The Chairman. What do you mean by " as an incident of corre- spondence " ? Mr. Eddy. Why, I would advert to that as one item of interest in correspondence, possibly, Senator. The Chairman. While you were seeking the promotion of Mr. Abbott he was also seeking your promotion, was he not? Mr. Eddy. No, sir; absolutely not. The Chairman. Did you know that he had sought to advance you to the position of supervisor of the work of superintendents in the reservations of the Northwest ? Mr. Eddy. I knew that Mr. Leupp had in mind to appoint me an inspector, and knew that Mr. Valentine had in mind to appoint me supervisor, and knew that Mr. Abbott had in mind to appoint me. The Chairman. Do you know how it happened that, if all these commissioners had it in mind, they did not do it ? Mr. Eddy. I think it was because The Chairman. Did you know that May 24, 1913, Mr. Abbott entered a memorandum in connection with your name : ''A valuable man to supervise the work of superintendents in the reservations of the Northwest " ? Mr. Eddy. I did not know anything about that as a memorandum. The Chairman. Did you expect promotion in the event he became commissioner ? Mr. Eddy. I hoped for it in any event. 1786 TONGUE B2VER EESEBVATION. The Chairman. What position were you seeking? I believe you said you were seeking the appointment as assistant commissioner, but not seriously. Mr. Eddy. Seriously, but not aggressively. The Chairman. Who has the selection of the assistant commis- sioner? The commissioner himself, has he not? Mr. Eddy. No, sir ; the Secretary of the Interior. The Chairman. But, as a matter of fact, it is done at the sugges- tion of the commissioner, is it not ? Mr. Eddy. Eeally, I do not know. Kepresentative Burke. He is appointed by the President. The Chairman. But I presume the suggestion is made by the commissioner. Mr. Eddy. I stated I would be glad to be a right-hand man to the commissioner. The Chairman. If Mr. Abbott had been appointed commissioner, you hoped to be assistant commissioner ? Mr. Eddy. Not in that way. If anybody were appointed I would be very happy to serve as assistant commissioner. The Chairman. You wanted to be assistant commissioner any- way ? You stated you did not think it would promote your chances to be assistant commissioner if Mr. Abbott were appointed commis- sioner? Mr. Eddy. I do not believe it would have seriously affected my chances — or, rather, materially affected my chances. I think, perhaps, if it is proper to state it, since the charge of political activity is adverted to, that I have no political status. I have never voted. I lived in the District of Columbia here for eight years after becoming of age, and then on Federal terr'-tory, and have never in anyway affiliated by party. The Chairman. When was that blanket authority given you to expend the proceeds of the individual Indians for such purposes as you deemed in the best interest of the Indians ? Mr. Eddy. That was given about three years ago, after a direct argument with Mr. Adams, the then Assistant Secretary of the In- terior. He had a fast rule that would exclude such an authority as I asked; but I took it that the position of the Indians was different at Tongue River, as they are individual Indian moneys and come entirely from earnings the result of cattle sales. Taking that posi- tion, the Secretary agreed, and practically directly dictated this let- ter giving a different authority from the one ordinarily in force. The Chairman. Now, that is unusual, is it not, Mr. Eddv? Mr. Eddy. Yes, Mr. The Chairman. Did you ever know of another superintendent being given that broad discretion ? Mr. Eddy. I do not know of another one being interested to go directly to the Secretary. The Chairman. Did you ever know of another one having it, if he was? Mr. Eddy. I do not; no. I discussed that, however, with the Indian Office officials, and asked if it would be proper to grant that. They said they did not believe it would be. I asked then if there was objection if I would take it directly to the Secretary, and they TONGUE BIVEE RESERVATION. 1787 said no, they would be glad to get it to his attention. With those assurances I went to him. The Chairman. Now, every ration day you pay out about $8,000, do you not? Mr. Eddy. We do; yes. The Chairman. How are your checks made payable? Mr. Eddy. To the Indians. The Chairman. In all instances? Mr. Eddy. In practically all instances. The Chairman. Are you in the habit of signing check books in advance, and leaving the rest to the clerks ? Mr. Eddy. I have done that to some extent. The Chairman. But, as matter of fact, did you not always sign two check books in advance and leave them to the clerks to fill out ? Mr. Eddy. The practice has been on issue days, the days the Indians come in for rations, to sign the approval line on the checks so that the clerks may be free to send out the checks. The Chairman. You sign those checks in advance, and then the bills are brought in afterwards, and the bill is O. K'd by the clerks ? Mr. Eddy. I do not understand what you mean by the bills, Senator. The Chairman. The bills which you pay for the Indians. The bills which you pay under this broad authority here in making pur- chases for the Indians. Mr. Eddy. We pay verjr few bills. I do not know of a dozen cases of bills being paid. The Chairman. Do not the Indians bring in all kinds of bills from the stores? Mr. Eddy. I do not know of a dozen being brought in in two j r ears. Senator Lane. Would you know whether they were or not ? Mr. Eddy. I believe I would, Senator. There would be a few brought in at times from a local trader, but. so few as to appear negligible. The idea in giving the Indians a liberal allowance is that they may be free to go and spend it at will. The Chairman. I believe you have been asked about the stock on the reservation and the manner of handling that ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, Senator. The Chairman. How many checks are you in the habit of signing in blank, and who is authorized to fill out those checks ? Mr. Eddy. Both clerks; Mr. Cassidy handles the individual In- dian moneys and Mr. Green the regular agency receipt roll. I have made it a practice to sign no checks in advance, practically speaking, for Mr. Green on salary and agency account, but Mr. Cassidy, who is an experienced clerk and who has especially requested that I sign these checks for him, and whom I have confidence in — I have, to facilitate his work, signed a number of checks for him. I think that is a common practice. Senator Lane. How much are those for, usually ? Mr. Eddy. Twenty-five or fifty dollars. Senator Lane. Is that stated " not over $25 " before you sign it ? Mr. Eddy. You see, the Indian actually signs the check. The sign- ing that the Senator refers to is a countersignature. The Indian him- self draws his own check against his account. The Chairman. You countersign a check in advance ? 1788 TONGUE EIVEE RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. I have ; a few. The Chairman. And the Indian comes in in your absence and signs it and gets his money? How in the world can you know in advance what account that check is filled out for in advance ? Mr. Eddy. I would not know in advance. The Chairman. So if the clerk and the Indian should conclude to fill it out for any sum within the amount which the Indian had, it would be paid and you would have no check on it except the stub ? Mr. Eddy. That has been the case. Fortunately it has resulted in no loss to the Indians. The Chairman. You would not know whether the Indian himself had signed the check, would you? The object of the regulations re- quiring you to countersign the check is to validate the Indian's sig- nature and the purpose for which it is drawn. Now, if you counter- sign in advance and leave it to some one else, how can you safeguard the right of the Indian and keep some one else from signing the Indian's name? Mr. Eddy. Of course, the thing we depend upon is the clerk whom the civil service sends to us, and we have depended upon him in the past, as I say, with no loss to the Indians in any case. The Chairman. How do you know? Mr. Eddy. None have ever been reported. The Chairman. You would know if they were reported, but you would not know unless they were? Mr. Eddy. I never knew an Indian that ever lost a cent who did not make it a matter of continued agitation. The Chairman. If he knew it. How many farmers have you? Mr. Eddy. Five. The Chairman. And two forest guards? Mr. Eddy. Two forest guards. The Chairman. What do those farmers do? Have vou been over that? Eepresentative Burke. Yes ; Senator Lane went over it quite fully. The Chairman. Has the department criticized vour expenditures there? Mr. Eddy. Somewhat, Senator. But in what particular way do you mean ? Generally, do you mean ? The Chairman. For making expenditures without authority, for instance. Mr. Eddy. We have sometimes made unauthorized expenditures where we were assured of having funds to our credit that would not revert to the Treasury and remain there. The Chairman. What is the idea in doing that? Mr. Eddy. That has been an exigency to facilitate work. The Chairman. How would that arise? Mr. Eddy. It would arise, for instance, in orders we got in one case to expend $300 for stock-protection work, incident to a belief that permittees were driving cattle off the reservation. In order to make that supervision effective we found we would need more, and we hired it. The Chairman. Your automobile there was destroyed by fire last year ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, Senator. The Chairman. How did that occur? TONGUE BIVER RESERVATION. 1789 Mr. Eddy. We had an Indian who had become very unruly — I should say dangerous — and a number of the employees were with me in consultation, and we decided it would be advisable to go down and consult with the county attorney that night as to ways and means of handling this Indian. I asked the chauffeur to prepare the car, which he went to do — that is, the laborer there — and while we were in consultation at the doctor's office the car caught fire, as he stated, from a lantern some 8 or 10 feet outside of the building ; the theory being, as it was developed by an inspector, that the gasoline, being heavy and low, floated out to the lantern and burned up the car. The Chairman. Did you keep the gasoline there with the car, and in that building ? Mr. Eddy. The gasoline, Senator, Avas in a building about 8 feet from the car. "We took the Indian to jail the next day, in another car, and he served for a number of months. The Chairman. Do you know how the employees at the agency and the Indians on the reservation regard your capacity as superin- tendent ? Do you know how they feel toward you ? Mr. Eddy. I know that every delegation of Indians that has been here for the last 8 years has seen fit to speak approvingly. The Chairman. I did not ask anything about delegations that were sent here by the reservation. I asked about the Indians on the reser- vation, and the employees. I will just state for your information that delegations who have come to Washington from the reservations most always represent, as you must know, the views of the agency. What I am anxious to know is whether you are informed of the fact that there has been general complaint by the Indians that you are incapable as superin- tendent? , Mr. Eddy. Of course, I am not aware of that. I have always telt that the response the Indians have given to efforts that we have un- dertaken in their behalf has been so hearty as to assure me they must have confidence in my management. The Chairman. Take, for instance, the case of those five farmers. Are their services satisfactory to you in promoting farming among the Indians? ... 1 . ., Mr. Eddy. There is, of course, now a new agricultural activity upon the resevation. The Chairman. Since when? Mr. Eddy. This spring. Of course, last year there was a very marked advance over previous years. The Chairman. What was the total value of crops, last year, pro- duced on the reservation ? Mr. Eddy. Perhaps $20,000. The Chairman. How does that compare with the amount pro- duced the year before you went there, if you know ? Mr. Eddy. There was practically nothing produced the year before I went there. . . n o The Chairman. There was no farming at all « Mr Ed^y Practically no farming at all. It was generally sup- nosed that no farming could be done in that country. It was not S three years ago that it was ever assumed that farming could be done in that country. 1790 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. The Chairman. Three thousand acres in cultivation on that reser- vation, five expert farmers in charge Mr. Eddy. Two expert farmers. The Chairman. Five farmers ; you designate 2 of them as experts, and the other three as nonexperts— five farmers on the 3,000 acres, produced $20,000 worth of crops last year, according to your esti- mate? Mr. Eddy. I should judge. The Chairman. That is an average of a little over $6 an acre. Mr. Eddy. These people, of course, have been stock-growing people, and have made their success in stock. The Chairman. By the way, is that good farming land ? Mr. Eddy. We believe it is, Senator. The Chairman. Don't you know whether it is? You have been there seven and a half years. Mr. Eddy. It is. The Chairman. When did you discover that it was good farming land? Mr. Eddy. I think I discovered it the first year. The Chairman. Why did you say a moment ago that you now believe it is ? Mr. Eddy. I believe it is, and I stated further that it is. The Chairman. Good farming land ought to produce more than six and a third dollars an acre. Mr. Eddy. It would, of course, if whites were doing the farming, but where backward, non-English speaking Indians are concerned they are making a remarkable comparative showing. The Chairman. How many line riders did you say ? Mr. Eddy. Eight. The Chairman. What do you pay them ? Mr. Eddy. They are paid $720 per annum. The Chairman. What do they do? Mr. Eddy. They ride the lines and act as far as may be as forest patrols. They join in the round-ups, keep the fence up, and act as general stockmen under the superintendence of Mr. Ferris there, the stockman on the reservation. The Chairman. What was the total increase of stock on the reser- vation, if you know ? Mr. Eddy. I think we branded 1,500 calves. We probably had as many colts. We would have had many more had not the worst winter in 40 years preceded three winters ago, which did considerable damage among the she stock on the reservation. The Chairman. Did the stock on the reservation increase more year before last than last year ? Mr. Eddy. It did. The Chairman. What was the increase for that year? Mr. Eddy. Just before the big winter freeze we had 2,300 calves. Then, as I say, the worst winter in 40 years came and struck in hard on the calves and the she stock, very materially putting us back. Outside of the reservation that year in many herds 50 or 60 per cent were lost, and in some up to 90 per cent, so it is obvious that with all that shock that herd will have to start again to maintain its aforetime ratio of progress. TONGUE RIVEK KESEBVATION. 1791 The Chairman. Have you explained the facilities provided on the reservation for caring for stock in severe winter? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What would you say was the increase in value of the stock on the reservation last year ? Mr. Eddy. We sold $48,000 worth last year. The Chairman. Of course, that was not all increase ? Mr. Eddy. It would probably be $15 on 6,000 head— $80,000 or $90,000. Representative Burke. I would like to ask a few questions. How old are you, Mr. Eddy? Mr. Eddy. Thirty-eight, Mr. Burke. Eepresentative Burke. Where were you educated? Mr. Eddy. In the Boston grammar and high schools, and at the Massachusetts Agricultural College at Amherst. Representative Burke. Under what circumstances and when did you enter the Indian Service? Mr. Eddy. I had been employed here in Washington as landscape gardener at the Zoological Park for eight years. I was associated with Robert Lincoln O'Brien, the editor of the Boston Herald, and I lived with him here. He was a partner of the former commis- sioner, Mr. Leupp, I believe, in the newspaper business, and at the instance of Mr. Leupp, as I have the information, I was brought to his attention by Mr. O'Brien and transferred from the Smith- sonian Institution. Representative Burke. Were you then in the classified service? Mr. Eddy. I was in the classified service. Representative Burke. In what capacity did you begin your service in the Indian Bureau ? Mr. Eddy. As clerk here in the Washington office for about four months. Representative Burke. What was your next employment? Mr. Eddy. I went then to assist in the opening of bids at St. Louis, about two months. Then I went to the southwest with the general supervisor of the reservations, and surveyed with him and traveled with him about the reservations of the southwest. Representative Burke. Then what did you do ? Mr. Eddy. I spent five months as clerk at the Uintah Agency in Utah. Representative Burke. Then what? Mr. Eddy. Clerk at Tongue River for six months, and the past seven and a half years as agent. . Representative Burke. Who made you superintendent i Mr. Eddy. Mr. Leupp, at $720. Representative Burke. What salary do you now receive? Mr. Eddy. $1,900. I have had six promotions, I believe, m that 'Representative Burke. When did you come to Washington on this occasion ? Mr Eddy. On this occasion, over two weeks ago. Representative Burke. Under what circumstances did you come h< Mr Eddy. Peremptory wire to come immediately to Washington. Representative Burke. From whom? 1792 TONGUE BIVEB RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. From the present Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Representative Burke. Were you informed upon your arrival here what you were brought here for? Mr. Eddy. No; I was not informed. But Monday morning Mr. Linnen, the inspector, took me to one side, and he held a preliminary examination, taking up Representative Burke. An examination of what kind? Mr. Eddy. There were certain charges, in which, by implication, I was involved, affecting the assistant commissioner, Mr. Abbott. They were first brought to my attention by Mr. Linnen, and a num- ber of anonymous letters that charged me with this, that, and the other Representative Burke. What were you charged with ? Mr. Eddy. A rather indefinite line of inquiry, Mr. Burke; among other things, telling the Indians that they could kill white men's cat- tle on the reservation, but they must not kill Indian cattle, and with incompetency. Representative Burke. In what form were those charges pre- ferred ? Mr. Eddy. They were not preferred. They were merely questions asked me. Mr. Linnen would state, You are charged with this, that, and the other, and I would aswer the charge. Representative Burke. You said something about favoring Mr. Abbott for commissioner, I believe. What capacity was he acting in at the time you refer to ? What position did he hold in the Indian Office at that time? Mr. Eddy. He was assistant commissioner. Representative Burke. When was this? Mr. Eddy. In February of 1913. Representative Burke. That was last year ? Mr'. Eddy. Last year. Representative Burke. I believe you have stated that he did not solicit you to interest yourself in his behalf ? Mr. Eddy. No, sir. Representative Btjrke. Did any other aspirant in connection with the Indian Office solicit your support in any way ? Mr. Eddy. Well, there were quite a number of candidates, Mr. Burke. Why, the then law officer, the present Assistant Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, invited me to join in behalf of his can- didacy. Representative Burke. For what? Mr. Eddy. For commissioner. Representative Burke. In what way? Mr. Eddy. Why, to get busy with the superintendents whom I knew, and to go to Senators, who were specified by name, and to generally take an active part in the business of making him Com- missioner of Indian Affairs. Representative Burke. Who was that person, by name ? Mr. Eddy. Mr. Meritt. Representative Burke. The present assistant commissioner? Mr. Eddy. The present assistant commissioner. Representative Burke. In what way did the matter come up be- tween you and Mr. Meritt that he asked you to interest yourself in his candidacy ? TONGUE BIVER RESERVATION. IY93 inv£d E to D m a S h a y ' e ri he ^ CCasi0 ^ 0f a visit t0 Mohonk > where I was hlstocW o = th ^ rt ad< J ress - 1 J n T hich J made OP^ advocacy of Ml Mer1tt g aske^.wW atl0n ^A^ 6 USe of reimbursable funds- stated here tha 1 IZ >f y T h ^ Were ' and * stated > a s I have fW L i ' S* Was wlthoufc political attachment; and he stated that he planned to run, and invited my cooperation I was pleased to accord him the friendly interest that I have and had for him Representative Burke. It did not occur to you that there was anv- n^e'SS/^r 11611811516 in ^ man in the Indian OffiS E- mgtne ambition to become commissioner, did it? «,5r" + T# ? Seem u d t0 ^ 6 P erfec tly proper that everybody should endeavor to advance himself as he best could thft e ?ou Se thm^ e f ST 2 " * J Udge fr ° m What you have stated here ^ Xl ZSt #£ %* some * ime y° u y° u ^elf might hold a position ™ ™ mn Ufflce of more importance than you now hold« Mr. Eddy. I had that hope. Representative Burke. During your administration as superin- tendent at the Tongue River Agency have you occasionally had trom time to time visits from inspectors and supervisors from the Indian Office? Mr. Eddy. Very numerous. Representative Burke. Have you ever had any serious complaints made against your administration, or have you been required to respond to charges at any time during that period? Mr. Eddy. Never. As I understand, the comments of visitors have been complimentary. I have never been called upon to answer charges, except in the case where one Indian had stated that he had not got all that was coming to him in a certain lumber transaction, but the record in the case in response to those charges showed that the transaction was -as it should be. But I have never had any charges originate from this end. Representative Burke. Have you any knowledge of any charges pending at the present time that have not been directly brought to your notice ? Mr. Eddy. I was advised by wire the other day that a group of the employees,_taking advantage of the difficulties that have beset us, were cooperating to make things unhappy for us, and are riling charges which will be here very shortly. I may say that just prior to leaving the reservation I talked with all of these several employees, telling them what to do, and I was unaware they had signed a round robin — some four — -against my interest. When I got here I found that such a circular had come into the Indian Office, not through open channels but indirectly, and now, simply because I am here and they are there, these other charges are coming. They will be here in a few days. Representative Burke. When were you supposed to return? Mr. Eddy. At the pleasure of the committee. Representative Burke. You believe that there are charges going to be brought to the attention of this commission ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir ; but I do not know. Representative Burke. I say, have you any reason to believe that there are? 35601— pt 14—14 4 1794 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. I have no reason to believe there are, unless what is presented here to-night would be The Chairman. I will state that the commission was informed that Mr. Eddy was in town, and at the suggestion of Senator Lane the meeting was called. Representative Carter. What makes you think there are charges? Mr. Eddy. I got a wire from the chief clerk, and I have discussed the matter with Mr. Linnen, and he advised me that he had sent a wire to the chief clerk asking him to have certain testimony sent here. Representative Carter. Who advised you? Mr. Eddy. Mr. Linnen, through the commissioner, I take it. Representative Carter. What was this wire you say you got from the chief clerk? Mr. Eddy. He sent me a wire that was a copy of the wire he said he sent to the Indian Office, we will say, 15 days ago, in which wire— — - Representative Carter. Have you that message there? Mr. Eddy. I may have. (The witness here examined certain papers before him, but did not produce the message referred to.) Representative Burke. Now, I want to ask one or two questions. The chairman has suggested that you are charged with having been active and having traveled about the country promoting the interests of a man who did aspire to be Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Now, have you been confronted with a charge of that kind? Mr. Eddy. No, sir; other than Mr. Linnen — you might perhaps call that a confrontal. Representative Burke. Mr. Linnen informed you that there had been that charge made against you? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Representative Burke. And he, perhaps, interrogated you with reference to the circumstances? Mr. Eddy. The implications. The Chairman. You stated that Mr. Meritt also asked your assist- ance to help make him commissioner. Did he write you about it ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have you a copy of the letter ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have you a copy of the letters you wrote to and received from Mr. Abbott concerning the same matter ? Mr. Eddy. I have not. The Chairman. Where are they ? Mr. Eddy. They were not. The Chairman. They were not? You stated awhile ago that you did discuss it in some letters as an incident to the correspond- en Sr i, remember distinctly that statement. Where are those letters ? Mr. Eddy. I may have some. The Chairman. You have just stated " they were not." What do you mean by that ? Mr- Eddy. My impression from your question was The Cbcaieman - y ou have no right to take an impression other than the question asked. I asked you first where were the letters you had received from Mr. Abbott, and you stated " they were not." TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1795 Then I reminded you of the fact that you had previously stated that, as an incident of some of your correspondence, you had discussed the matter in some of your letters to Mr. Abbott. Now, I again ask you, if you know, where are those letters that you discussed the matter of his candidacy in ? Mr. Eddy. I am not sure that I hold any such letters. I have none with me. The Chairman. You are not sure that you hold them? What have you done with them ? That is what I am trying to find out. Mr. Eddy ; Why, Senator, I would do with them precisely what I would do with many letters; I would burn them. The Chairman. How did you happen to burn Mr. Abbott's letters and keep Mr. Meritt's letters ? Mr. Eddy. Just a mere accident. I do not know that I have Mr. Meritt's letter with me. The Chairman. You said a while ago you had. Mr. Eddy. It is in Washington ; it is here. The Chairman. How do you know the Abbott letters are not in Washington ? Mr. Eddy. I do know it is not. The Chairman. You do know they were not burned ? Mr. Eddy. I do know it is not in Washington. The Chairman. How do you know that? Mr. Eddy. I did not bring them. The Chairman. Do you know where they are? Mr. Eddy. I do not know. I admitted frankly, don't you know, that letters bearing upon that proposition had come to me. The Chairman. Yes; that is what I understood, and then I did not understand what you meant when you said " they were not." Mr. Eddy. I meant I did not have specific letters making the can- didacy a special point, Senator, as was the case in this letter which I do happen to hold. Eepresentative Burke. Did he not state formerly that adverted to Mr. Abbott's candidacy in letters he wrote to Mr. Abbott? The Chairman. He did. Eepresentative Burke. Now, do I understand you had letters from Mr. Abbott soliciting your support? Mr. Eddy. I had letters that touched upon the candidacy — the condition of the candidacy — not special letters, but letters that might mention that in connection with other personal matters. I had a close personal association with Mr. Abbott. Eepresentative Burke. Did you ever have any letters from Mr. Abbott in which he specifically asked you to perform any act pro- moting the interests of his candidacy ? Mr. Eddy. I believe I did. The Chairman. What did you do with those letters? Mr. Eddy. I may have them ; I may have burned them. Eepresentative Carter. Why did you burn them? Mr. Eddy. I attached no special importance to them, Mr. Carter. Eepresentative Carter. How was it you attached enough im- portance to one man's letter about his candidacy to save that and not enough importance to another man's letter about his candidacy to save that, when the other man, you admit, you were friendly to? 1796 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. The point is this, you see: These charges that by im- plication involve my name were published in January, and as the charges were made by a person who had no knowledge on his own part Representative Carter. Who made them ? Mr. Eddy. Mr. Johnson, I believe. Representative Carter. Who is Mr. Johnson? Mr. Eddy. Mr. Johnson was formerly special liquor officer in the Indian Bureau, and it occurred to me that somebody must be fur- nishing him with information, since he had never been to my agency and would know nothing about forest guards or house building or any other activity upon my part, because I had been directly threat- ened that if I did not get busy in behalf of the candidacy of Mr. Meritt I would be hamstrung when he was in a position to do busi- ness. I did sail through my files to see if there was anything there that would in any way show that the activities I was making on behalf of one man were of like sort as those I was asked to make on behalf of another. The Chairman. Who was it made that threat? Mr. Eddy. Mr. Meritt stopped me on the street here one day. He said, "Eddy, you're in wrong; you're with a loser. I would like to see you get right." The Chairman. When was that? Mr. Eddy. During the time I was here in Washington. The Chairman. I know ; but when ? Mr. Eddy. Last year. The Chairman. About when last year ? . Mr. Eddy. We will say in February of last year. The Chairman. We will not say it unless it was. Mr. Eddy. It was. The Chairman. It was in February ? How many times were you here last year? Mr. Eddy. Twice that I recall. The Chairman. When did you burn the Abbott letters? Mr. Eddy. At various times when I was cleaning my files. The Chairman. Can you give us the dates ? Mr. Eddy. I really can not, Senator. I imagined that I burned many of them upon receipt. I do not mean by " many " that many of them contained matter affecting his candidacy, but I did have a running correspondence with Mr. Abbott upon matters affecting the Indian Service. Senator Lane. Would you burn those that pertained to the Indian Service ? Mr. Eddy. They were personal letters ; they were not official. Senator Lane. Letters that came to you by frank? Mr. Eddy. By stamp. Senator Lane. And you replied to them with a stamp ? Mr. Eddy. By stamp. The Chairman. Did they relate to your duties on your work? Mr. Eddy. They were friendly exchanges between friends. ?? e Chairman. You were carrying on a social correspondence? Mr. Eddy. A social correspondence. .The Chairman. You did not destr °y an y of the correspondence that related to anything you were doing or engaged in ? TONGUE BIVER RESERVATION. 1797 Mr. Eddy. None of the official correspondence. The Chairman. What do yon mean by " official correspondence"? Mr. Eddy. Regular official correspondence, coming to me under f 1 ank. The Chairman. You think that a letter that is not franked is not official correspondence if it relates to matters affecting your public duties? Mr. Eddy. I have taken the position that letters that were sent to me personally by officials were not official letters. The Chairman. How many personal letters did you receive from Mr. Abbott during the time he was candidate for commissioner? Mr. Eddy. During the time Mr. Abbott was in office I may have received 50 personal letters from him. The Chairman. You destroyed all of them, did you? Mr. Eddy. I destroyed many of them. The Chairman. Why did you not destroy them all ? Mr. Eddy. No reason for not destroying them all. The Chairman. What reason was there for destroying any? Mr. Eddy. No reason for destroying any. The Chairman. You said in answer to a question by Mr. Burke that the inspectors had been in the habit of visiting your agency frequently. How often have they come there? Mr. Eddy. There have been inspectors every year. Of course it is a remote point. The Chairman. Once a year? Mr. Eddy. Last year seven times. The Chairman. What inspectors were there last year? Mr. Eddy. Mr. Kneale, Mr. Jenkins, Mr. Goodall, Mr. Reed, Mr. Hanna, Mrs. Newton, Mr. Young, Mr. Rosenkrans — I think that is eight. The Chairman. What did they do; how long did they stay; and what service did they perform ? Mr. Eddy. Why, Mr. Jenkins was there perhaps a month, Senator ; Mr. Kneale, a month ; Mr. Goodall, a month ; Mr. Reed, a week ; Mrs. Newton, three or four days ; Mr. Young, over night ; Mr. Rosenkrans, about a week. The Chairman. Where did they stay while they were there? Whom did they stop with ? You ? Mr. Eddy. I think that Mrs. Newton stopped at the house. Mr. Charles was also there. The Chairman. Where did the other supervisors stop ? 'Mr. Eddy. Mr. Kneale stopped at the hotel, Mr. Young at the hotel, Mr. Goodall on the round-up, Mr. Rosenkrans at the hotel — if I recall — I am not quite sure. I do not know that I was there, perhaps, for a couple of days. The Chairman. Do you know a young man by the name of Logan that is employed there? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What capacity is he employed in? Mr. Eddy. He was supervisor of ditches on the Tongue River irrigation project. The Chairman. Was he also appointed a receiver for a cattle com- pany ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. 1798 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION. The Chairman. During the time he was serving as superintendent of this irrigation project? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. "Was that upon your recommendation? Mr. Eddy. No, sir; upon a direct presentation of the facts and a request that the department determine whether or not it was proper to have him stop. I, of course, was very glad that they had him stay. There was a valuable irrigation pro]ect built on land that melts like sugar. Mr. Logan had been with the construction since its inception, and he was the most skilled irrigator in that country. The receivership was supposed to be of a temporary nature and with the express understanding that he was to have no connec- tion other than administrative, and that it would require none of his time in connection with the receivership, and the department per- mitted him to hold both places. The Chairman. How could he perform the functions of a receiver if it would not require any of his time? Mr. Eddy. The cattle, of course, were ranging for the greater part of the receivership, or for all the time I imagined originally that the receivership would hold, but it did hold longer than I an- ticipated, because of the difficulties between these partners. The Chairman. You recommended to the department that he be permitted to hold both places? Mr. Eddy. I did not; I merely made a showing of facts and asked the department to determine. . The Chairman. Did we get all this conversation between you and Mr. Meritt on the street at the time he said " You're in wrong " ? Mr. Eddy. I told Mr. Meritt that it seemed to me that loyalty de- manded that I stay with the man who was running the snip until the ship went down. And Mr. Meritt himself realized later that his position was wrong, and just before I left for the West he came to the hotel and threw his arm around my shoulder, and he said, " Eddy, it was wrong for me to do what I did. I should never have accused you of being in a deal with Wanamaker. It is all right to stand for your friends. Now, shake hands, old man, and go back." And I shook hands on that proposition and went back. The Chairman. There has been no feeling between you since? Mr. Eddy. Nothing but the best of feeling on my part. The Chairman. Now, at this time, 1913, there was a pretty bitter strife in the Indian Office between Mr. Abbott, the then assistant commissioner, and Mr. Meritt, who was the law clerk, was there not? Mr. Eddy. There was strife, and I was invited by Mr. Meritt to go in and rectify that strife. He says, " Eddy, you're a friend of us both. I wish you would endeavor to make good feeling." And, as I have always done, I endeavored to make an adjustment there be- tween them. When there were charges to be preferred to the Secre- tary, as I overhead in the office of the commissioner, on my own initiative I stepped in to say, " Don't do it; it does not look right." The Chairman. They were both aspiring to the same position at the same time ? Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Were they? Was not Mr. Abbott desiring to be- come commissioner? TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 179*9 Eepresentative Burke. No. Representative Carter. What charges were to be preferred? Mr. Eddy. That was preferred against Mr. Meritt, as I overheard in the office of the assistant commissioner. Of course, I had no knowledge of the truth of these charges that Mr. Meritt had for six weeks or more exclusively "used a stenographer in behalf of his can- didacy, writing letters to superintendents everywhere, and to Sena- tors and Representatives, and employees of the Government; and when that was brought to my attention, in view of the fact that Mr. Meritt had a splendid record for overwork and everybody knew he was industrious, and because I presume everybody does that sort of thing in a pinch like that, I said it did not seem to me it was quite right. Representative Carter. Who was preferring the charges ? Mr. Eddy. The stenographer, I understand, brought the charges to the attention of Mr. Abbott. Representative Carter. Who was the stenographer? Mr. Eddy. Miss Warner. Representative Carter. Who was preferring the charges? Mr. Eddy. Mr. Abbott, as I understand. Let me make this clear. As I was in the office I understood the commissioner to say to Mr. Holcombe that this was a serious situation, that this stenographer had come and told him that she was greatly worried, that as a Gov- ernment employee her time was being used in personal service for Mr. Meritt. Representative Carter. Who was commissioner then? Mr. Eddy. Mr. Abbott — assistant. And the proposition appealed to me as a wrong one for Mr. Abbott to take up, and I told him so. I do not think those charges ever went to the Secretary. That is exactly the relation I have had with every man in the service since I have been in it. I have tried to play fair. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not the charges were sent to the Secretary ? Mr. Eddy. I do not know. I think they were not. They 'were not at the time I left Washington, of which I have any information. Representative Carter. You spoke of a trip to New York, Lincoln, and other places. How long were you on that trip — 26 days? Mr. Eddy. Not that trip. I did not explain. In going West, to the reservation, I stopped off at Omaha on that trip Representative Carter. What I want to know is how many days were spent on that trip. Twenty-six days ? Mr. Eddy. That was the total time. Representative Carter. Where did you go when you left the reser- vation ? Mr. Eddy. I think possibly I stopped in Lincoln overnight to see Mr. Selway. Representative Carter. Don't you know? Mr. Eddy. I have the record. Representative Carter. Who is Mr. Selway ? Mr. Eddy. He is the man I have $30,000 worth of contracts with. Representative Carter. What kind of contracts? Mr. Eddy. Contracts to purchase horses and mares for Indians. Representative Carter. Where did you go next? 1800 TONGUE EIVEB RESERVATION. Mr. Eddy. Directly here, stopping, I believe, at Omaha or Chicago en route. Representative Carter. What did you stop at Omaha for? Mr. Eddy. To see the superintendent of the Omaha warehouse, and also the superintendent of the Chicago warehouse, with whom we had business. Representative Carter. What did you want to see them about? Mr. Eddy. To consult as to the status of the business we were doing. Representative Carter. Then, from Omaha you went to New York ? Mr. Eddy. No; then I came here. Representative Carter. What did you do here? Mr. Eddy. I was here to present, for Mr. Abbott, to the Members of Congress argument, if you please, on behalf of reimbursable ap- propriations, on our own account and for the Indians of the country. We had made a success with the reimbursable appropriations that has been remarked upon by this office as the most remarkable success with those funds. Representative Carter. Where did you go when you left here? Mr. Eddy. Then I went directly home, stopping at Omaha over- night. Representative Carter. And then you went to New York? Mr. Eddy. I did. Then I came back here. Representative Carter. Where did you go when you first came here? Mr. Eddy. I either remained here or went to New York directly. Representative Carter. I thought you said you 'Hd go to New York. Mr. Eddy. I did on the occasion of a visit, but I do not know whether it was immediately on coming here or some time during my stay. Representative Carter. You left Washington and went to New York to discuss Indian legislation? Mr. Eddy. I have letters here from Mr. Grinnell to prove it. Representative Carter. What had Mr. Grinnell to do with legis- lation ? Mr. Eddy. He has had a great deal to do with Indian legislation, in presenting arguments to members of the committees handling Indian legislation for many years. Representative Carter. Has he done so very often in the last 10 years ? Mr. Eddy. I do not know how often. He has, I believe, done a good deal of business with Mr. Burke for many years. Representative Carter. What did you expect Mr. Grinnell to do in the way of getting legislation? Mr. Eddy. Why, to write letters to Mr. Carter and to Mr. Burke Representative Carter. Was it your opinion that the Indian Office was not capable of getting the legislation that was necessary and presenting the matter strong enough to Congress, and that an out- sider, like Mr. Grinnell, had to be called in to persuade Congressmen 1o do their duty? Mr. Eddy. I think the point is that he would merely be an inter- ested and an intelligent adviser. He would not hope to influence legislation except as he showed the need of it and the good of it. TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1801 Eepresentative Carter. What was the result of your conference with Mr. Grinnell? Did he agree to help you and write letters to Congressmen about legislation ? Mr. Eddy. I am not sure, but he came down shortly after. He has made several visits here in behalf of the Indians in recent years. Eepresentative Carter. I am not passing upon your motives, or attempting to impugn your conduct, even if you were working for Mr. Abbott; but the thing I can not understand is how it is you should leave Washington, where legislation is being done, and go to New York. Mr. Eddy. I had done all I could here, and wished to interest some- body else to do all they could, too. Eepresentative Carter. Then you did think the Indian Office was incapable of getting legislation for the protection of the Indians at that time? Mr. Eddy. I know that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs had no assistant at that time, and he saw fit to use me to assist in presenting arguments on those two points. Eepresentative Carter. You wanted Mr. Grinnell to bring his in- fluence to bear on Congressmen to get the legislation that was neces- sary? Mr. Eddy. I do not think anything like that. I wish you knew Mr. Grinnell. Eepresentative Carter. I know who he is very well. I have read several of his books. Mr. Eddy. Would you like me to read a letter or two Eepresentative Carter. The point I am trying to get at is what he knew about legislation ? Mr. Eddy. He probably had been influential in getting all the cat- tle these Indians ever got by coming down here and hammering the needs of the Indians upon Congress. Senator Lane. Did he have anything to do with the cattle that are going on the reserve? ~" Mr. Eddy. He has never had anything to do with that. He is writ- ing a history of the Northern Cheyenne Indians, and has been busy on it for 23 years. Eepresentative Carter. While you were with Mr. Grinnell you dis- cussed only your duties? Mr. Eddy! I admitted here that Eepresentative Carter. You said you may have done it? Mr. Eddz. I do not recall, really. Mr. Grinnell has a different type of mind than we ordinarily meet with— interested in this public service in this way. I regarded him so differently. Eepresentative Carter. Was this the customary manner then of the Indian Bureau getting legislation through Congress ? Mr. Eddy. Oh, I think not. Eepresentative Carter. That was out of the ordinary _ then i Mr. Eddy. It was out of the ordinary for an agent to interest him- self in the way I have interested myself, so far as I am able to observe. Eepresentative Carter. At whose suggestion did you call on Mr. Grinnell ? Mr Eddy. At my own initiative, and as I stated, four years ago, for other legislation, I also went to New York to consult Mr. Grin- nell. 1802 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. Representative Carter. It was not an exceptional case then? It was a customary case? Sir. Eddy. It was a thing I had done before, before I ever knew of Mr. Abbott. The Chairman. I asked you a while ago about the case of Mr. Logan. I believe he was removed from the service for some transac- tion in connection with that receivership ? Mr. Eddy. Yes. Unfortunately, against my advice, he tendered money to one Harvey Wilcott and in the course of inquiry at For- sythe I found he had accepted such money. I immediately brought it to the attention of the department, and Mr. Wilcott was sus- pended — they were both permitted to resign. The Chairman. What did he give him money for? Mr. EDDr. This man Wilcott was our stock inspector. At the time of this receivership at Tongue River they were removing the cattle from the reservation, and Wilcott, an expert range man, was solicited by one of these partners to look after their interests while he was look- ing after ours. I stated to Wilcott when he put the proposition to me that it would be wholly impracticable that he could be engaged, but we could do it by an arrangement whereby we could make for the Government so much per head in handling the cattle of this dissolv- ing firm. But he saw fit to accept the tender of money from the receiver, wholly unknown to me, and when it was brought to my at- tention it was then brought to the attention of the department. The Chairman. Why was it proper for Logan to be in the employ of both, and not for Wilcott? Mr. Eddy. As I have stated, Mr. Logan had nothing but an admin- istrative connection with the receivership. The Chairman. You have just shown that he had, and that his conduct made it necessary for him and another employee to be re- moved. Mr. Eddy. Was not that administrative? The Chairman. Perhaps it was administrative, but you have just shown that his connection with it made it necessary for him to be removed from the service, as was also another employee. I asked you a while ago if you did not recommend that Logan be permitted to take that employment, and you said you did not? Mr. Eddy. I feel that I did not. Without the record before me The Chairman. I will ask you if, in a letter of July 18, 1912, you did not say, referring to the character of the services he was to per- form: In view of the foregoing circumstances, inasmuch as there seems to be no reason why Mr. Logan should not have the benefit of the compensation that comes to him as receiver, I recommend that authority be granted for his con- linuance as supervisor of ditches until the end of the shipping season, when probably the business of the company he serves will be settled and no longer require the services of a receiver. Mr. Eddy. That is my language. It was my impression, of course, when I answered that question to Mr. Linnen, without any records before me and without any records to be answered, that I had not made any recommendation. The Chairman. Whom did you talk with about coming before the commission? Who was it suggested your name to Senator Lane? Do you know? TONGUE EIVEB RESERVATION. 1803 Mr. Eddy. Mr. Bentley. Senator Lane. Did you know that he was going to do so ? Mr. Eddy. I knew this: I had talked with Mr. Bentley at the hotel, and 1 knew that Mr. Bentley had a great interest in Indian affiairs, that he was impressed, as he stated, by the showing we have made on the Tongue River Reservation ; and he stated to me that " that is a showing that should be presented to the committee, and I would be very much interested to see it get before the committee "—absolutely at his own initiative. Senator Lane. And then you knew that he came to me and sug- gested the same idea ? Mr. Eddy. I had that in mind ; yes, sir. Mr. Bentley. Mr. Chairman, will you permit me to offer a word ? The Chairman. I do not care anything about that. (Thereupon, at 11.10 o'clock p. m., the joint commission stood ad- journed to meet Wednesday, May 27, 1914, at 7.30 o'clock p. m.) The following letters, etc., were submitted by Mr. John R. Eddy : Tongue River Agency, Lame Deer, Mont., November J,, 190S. Subject: Grazing matters. Hon. Commissioner of Indian Aefaibs, Washington, D. C. Sir: Referring to land 44410-1908, October 29, 1908, I have to advise that during the early fall, while on a visit here, Mr. George Bird Grinnell, who has: much influence with these Indians, and who is interested in their economic condition, went with me to the home of Mr. Joseph T. Brown, one of the per- mittees now grazing cattle on this reservation, for the purpose of discussing grazing matters. Mr. Brown is the gentleman who agreed to put on 10,000 head of cattle at $1.50 per head per year, providing the Indians would give their consent to the arrangement. After a full discussion of the matter Mr. Brown agreed to extend his present pasture if agreeable to the Indians and to the Government, so as to allow him to put on about 3,000 head, for which he would pay $2 per year per head. I was much gratified at the generous dispo- sition of Mr. Brown, and felt confident that arrangements could be made for getting an unreserved consent from the Indians. Mr. Grinnell made full notes and intended advising the commissioner personally of the status of the matter. Mr. Brown was, perhaps, the only man in the country who at the time we dis- cussed matters with him would be willing to put on any considerable numbers of cattle here. The settlers, while admitting that the Indians are killing practically no cattle without the bounds of the reservation, are slow to believe- that their cattle would be unmolested if put on the reservation. I regret ex- ceedingly that since Mr. Grinnell's visit Mr. Brown has died. I recently dis- cussed grazing matters with Mrs. Brown, who is administering Mr. Brown's estate, and I am inclined to think that she will let the matter of increasing the size of the leased pasture on the reservation rest for a while. It is probable, however, that Mrs. Brown with Mr. Brewster will request permission to hold the present leased pasture for another year. Mr. Brown's death is a severe blow to the plans that we were forming with a view to having all of the range utilized. Though interest will be maintained to try to have others bring cattle on this range, I do not think that we will find anyone who will go as far in the matter as Mr. Brown was disposed to go. Having in mind that the Cheyennes have netted about $30,000 in sales of increase from the 1,000 head purchased for issue to them five years ago, and that there is at least $75,000 worth of stock on the range developed from the purchase of 1,000 head made five years ago, including original stock and in- crease, I deem it an altogether reasonable move to request that the department consider the proposition of requesting of the Congress an appropriation of $100,000 to be devoted to the purchase of approximately 3,000 head of cows- 1804 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION. with calves by their sides for the northern Cheyennes, with the proviso that the Government be fnliy reimbursed for the expenditure involved from the initial sales of increases from said stock. In this connection I invite attention to Voucher No. 20 of the cash account for the first quarter 1908, which shows that these Indians received about $12,000 net from the sale of 180 head of 3 and 4 year old steers (increase of the issue herd of 1,000 head purchased five years ago). It will be seen from the unusually heavy weights of the animals accounted for on said voucher that this is unquestionably the best possible range for beef steers. It seems hardly likely that the Congress could be persuaded to make a large Appropriation as that cited as a gratuity, and our experience here justifies the belief that the increase from the herd of 3,000, the purchase of which is proposed, would allow for full reimbursement tb the Government at the end of six or seven years. There would then remain on hand, providing no unusual winters interfered or fatal epidemic disease occurred in the herd, a very large ■number of animals for distribution among the heads of families. In order to make the policing of the reservation effective during the time the cattle were being held by the Government, a deputy United States marshal should be here to have general oversight of the police and of the range and the cattle. Our reservation is completely fenced. The winter protection is per- fect. It is pronounced as the best range for cattle in Montana. To make the proposed plan effective, I would gladly consent to remain to give it free play. In case the purchase was arranged for, and it should develop that our* plans for the protection of the cattle did not prove effective against the lessening tendency of the Indians to kill cattle, then the animals could be sold and the proceeds deposited in the Treasury with a comparatively small loss to the •Government, when it is considered what a substantial benefit would result both to the Government and the Indians, should the proposition work out as it seems reasonable to expect it might. If the above plan finds any favor with the office, I would be glad to go into it further, as I have thought much about It and personally regard it as feasible. Very respectfully, J. It. Eddy. Supt. and S. D. A. Tonoue River Agency, Lamecleer, SJont., August 20, 1912. Jlr. W. A. Jones, Mineral Point, Wis. My Dear Mr. Jones : I am happy to have the kindly expressions contained in your letter of Ju'y 27. It would have pleased all of us greatly had your plans permitted a number of days with our round-up outfit. We anticipate a large gather of prime beeves for shipment early in September find at the astounding prices now being paid for beef cattle can not fail of re- turning to the Cheyennes a goodly sales account. The Cheyennes have refrained steadfastly from cattle killing in the last six years that their herd is now worth $350,000, and they have already netted from it $125,000, and all from an initial investment of $60,000. These results have stimulated us to hope that we may in their interest form a stock company that will undertake to stock the range to its reasonable limit, with the under- standing that 4 per cent only shall be paid, and the balance of returns after paying interest and other charges go to reimbursing stockholders their invest- ments, so that when our helpers are fully paid out the residue of the herd ehall be distributed among the Indians of the reservation. Mr. Grinnell, conservative always, as you know, believes that this thing can be made to go, and I shall undertake to float the proposition this fall. The department is favorable. The herd to be purchased will be branded in the stock company brand and will remain with the company as security for the fulfillment of our purposes. This sort of thing for a tribe like the Cheyenne is well worth while. These ■sturdy people, the best Indians in the Northwest, according to Gen. Miles, have ■Since subjection been a very poorly equipped tribe economically. TONGUE EIVEK KESERVATION. 1805 thL*™^!^ ta 1 a ?° J ther season y° u may feel able to visit the Oheyennes, for Smi 5 Zf t hl g !^l m ^ tbe ^"i^oner who first realized the need for furnishing them with breeding cattle. With kind regards, I remain, sincerely, yours, J. R. Eddy. agreement — contract sale. Tongue River Agency, Lamedeer, Mont., August 24, 1912. This agreement evidences that R. R. gelway, of Sheridan, Wyo. and J R, Eddy, superintendent and supervising distributing agent of the Tongue River Agency, Lamedeer, Mont., for and on behalf of the undersigned Black Wolf a member of the Northern Cheyenne Tribe of Indians of said agency, hereby con- tract and agree as follows : Said R. R. Selway agrees to deliver to the said Black Wolf, Indian through the superintendent, on September 15, 1912, at , Mont., or such other point as shall be designated by the superintendent, one draft-bred stallion, described as follows : Color, brown-bay ; age, 3 years ; estimated weight at maturity, 1,300 pounds ; and branded thus b on right jaw. Which stallion is to be run by said Black Wolf with 20 or more mares now owned by him ; and it is agreed that within 10 days after receiving the above- described stallion said Black Wolf shall castrate all studs now running with- the mares owned by him; and that all stud colts foaled from mares owned by him during the period covered by this contract agreement shall be castrated within two years after foal. It is agreed that no mares owned by the said Black Wolf shall be sold by him within the period covered by this contract except with the consent of the superintendent, and the proceeds from the sale of such mares as may be sold shall be applied in payment of the cost price of the above-described stallion, which is hereinafter specified. It is agreed by R. R. Selway that the above-described stallion shall be de- livered to J. R. Eddy, superintendent, on behalf of said Black Wolf at a con- sideration of $380, with interest at 10 per cent per annum, which consideration,, with interest, shall be due and payable September 1, 1915 ; but any portion of said consideration may be paid in cash at any time prior to said date, and interest shall cease on the amount paid; and R. R. Selway agrees to receive cash, or horses, as hereinafter specified, in lieu of cash, in settlement of such portion of the above-specified consideration, with interest, as may be due Sep- tember 1, 1917, viz : All mares or gelding not less than 36 months old on Sep- tember 1, 1917, as in the judgment of R. R. Selway shall have been sired by the above-described stallion, to be selected by R. R. Selway at a value of $70 per head, and such horses as R. R. Selway, or his agent, shall judge not to have been sired by the said stallion, if offered by said Black Wolf to apply in pay- ment of said consideration shall be received by R. R. Selway at the market price of said horses, the market price to be determined by R. R. Selway, or his- agent, and J. R. Eddy, superintendent, on behalf of Black Wolf, or by three disinterested appraisers, one chosen by R. R. Selway, or his agent, one by the superintendent, and the third by the persons chosen, and their decision shall be final and binding as to the market value of the horses in question. It is agreed by the said Black Wolf that all mares and geldings offered in satisfaction of the consideration and accrued interest will be tied up with five-eighth-inch rope halter and not a hard twisted lariet and tamed for one day during the summer that they are 1 year old, and that they will be delivered to R. R. Selway on or about September 1, 1917, in good condition or fat, solid colors, free of blemishes and tamed to the extent that they will not be " man shy." It is agreed that all horses received in payment of the consideration and in- terest named in this agreement by R. R. Selway shall be delivered to him on or aD0U t , at ; and it is agreed that the above-described stallion shall remain the property of R. R. Selway until fully paid for as hereinbefore set forth and in the event payment has not been made in full of the consideration and interest named herein by Black Wolf, J. R. Eddy, superintendent, on behalf of said Black Wolf, hereby agrees to turn over to said R. R. Selway a sufficient 1806 TONGUE KIVER RESERVATION. number of horses, the property of said Black Wolf, at their market value, as ehall be required to complete satisfaction of this obligation in full, including interest at 10 per cent per annum from date until paid. Signed in good faith, but no financial obligation is assured by reason of this agreement by the superintendent or the United States Government. R. R. Selway, J. R. Eddy, Superintendent Tongue River Agency, Mont., for and on behalf of the Undersigned, Black Wolf. Black Wolf (his thumb mark). Witnesses : Milton Whitman, Lamedeer, Mont. E. H. Hale, Lamedeer, Mont. I, Milton Whitman, hereby certify that I have truly interpreted the foregoing instrument to Black Wolf and that he has agreed to and fully understands the intents and purposes of the same. Milton Whitman, Interpreter. November 6, 1911. Gen. Nelson A. Miles, Lieutenant General United States Army, Washington, D. 0. My Dear Gen. Miles : I feel greatly indebted to you for your letter of Novem- ber 4, in which you express interest to support the proposition which may take the form of a request for new legislation in the interest of a development of the cattle business of the northern Oheyennes. The record that the Cheyennes have made in the past six years as cattle raisers is an astonishing and commendable one, and is sufficient basis, it would seem, to urge in their interest legislation that will secure for them advances to be used in the purchase of more cattle, so that the business may be at once put on a very productive foundation. It is a pleasure to me to read the tribute that you offer the tribe. Their splendid courage makes all people interested to become their champions. Thanking you for the kindly consideration you have given the Indian delega- tion and this highly valued letter which was written in their interest, I remain, Very truly, yours, (Signed) J. R. Eddy, Superintendent Tongue River Indian School. Washington, D. C., November If, 1911. Mr. J. R. Eddy, Agent Northern Cheyenne Indians, Lame Deer, Mont. My Dear Mr. Eddy : I understand that a recommendation has been made that the Government advance $50,000 out of the appropriations guaranteed to these Indians during a term of years. The importance of this measure would be that the sum thus advanced to them could be used in the purchase of cattle to stock their reservation in addition to what they now have, and the yearly increase would be of the greatest benefit to this tribe. This would be no additional cost to the Government and is a measure that I would earnestly recommend in order to promote the welfare of these people. The Northern Cheyenne Indians are certainly entitled to most favorable con- sideration by the Government. They were at one time one of the strongest and most intelligent tribe of Indians on the frontier. After the severe campaigns of 187CW77 they were the first to accept the conditions of the Government and pledge themselves to maintain peace in that territory. A number of their prominent men — White Bull, Brave Wolf, and others — gave themselves as hostages for the faith of the tribe, and when they came in with the Sioux to surrender they gave up their rifles and also a large number of their war ponies. The latter were sold and the proceeds returned to them in domestic stock. Since that time they have complied with the directions of the Govern- ment and led peaceful lives. They furnished young men to act as guides and scouts and trailers, who accompanied the troops on their campaigns against the hostile tribes led by Lame Deer and Chief Joseph. They were most enter- TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1807 prising, daring and faithful. Some of them were wounded in the different en- gagements. They also rendered good service while employed in building roads ana other work in which they were engaged. They cultivated the ground and tor several years raised very good crops at Fort Keough, Mont. I am very glad to Know that the Government has reserved for them their present reservation, i? 4. «?° pe v r pe °P le m& y continue in possession of it for all time. The fact that they have remained at peace for more than 30 years and under the most embarrassing circumstances have increased their domestic stock by good care and attention shows that they are worthy of encouragement, and I recom- mend that everything be done that can be done for their welfare Very truly, yours, Nelson A. Miles, Lieutenant General, United States Army. Tongue River Agency, Lamedeer, Mont., August 21, 1912. Dear Mr. Leupp : It gave me much pleasure to extend to Dr. Grinnell your compliments and now I am very sure that it will be made a point with him to advise you more frequently as to his whereabouts. He has dropped active connection with Forest and Stream and is now busying himself with writings. His Cheyenne Tales are yet in the making with no definite word from the author as to when they will be given out. I know that Dr. Grinnell would be glad to have you spend a part of one of your summer outings here and it would please us mightily, if it strikes you agreeably, to consider coming to Lamedeer while we are here. Our hill country is quite like that of the Berk- shires as to conformation and is quite as beautiful as to forest cover, though our growth is coniferous rather than deciduous. I do not know what success will follow our efforts, but backed by Dr. Grinnell and with the already secured assent of Mr. Valentine and Mr. Abbott, I plan to secure, if possible, this fall in the East $200,000 to stock the reservation. The idea is to form a stock company to be formed of business philanthropists who will be requested to subscribe in $10,000 allotments. The cattle purchased will become the security of the investors and be carried in a company brand until sales of increase reimburse investors, who will receive 3 or 4 per cent on their money while in use. Secured in this way and in view of our actual results during the past six years on this range it does not seem that we should find it hard to secure the capital. In brief, to date we have the following record with Indian cattle : Ten years ago the Government invested $30,000 for breeding heifers; five years ago you secured an additional $30,000 for the same purpose. I have handled all proceeds from sale of increase from these heifers and have netted $125,000, and by actual inventory this summer have tallied a herd, the result of the above investment, of $300,000. In other words, our total investment of $60,000 has realized for us $425,000. It is positively amazing how profits pile up from beef cattle on such a range as this. Now, then, we lease to outsiders the privilege of running about 7,000 head and our range would stand about 10,000 head above the I. D. herd. It seems to me that our Indians, in their peculiar situation, should get the full benefit of their range as they would do if a stock company is formed and privileged to run a herd at 3 or 4 per cent until paid out. After paying out we would have a large herd in the company brand to be disposed of by pro rata issue to the heads of families on the reservation, and from this herd together with the I. D. herd the range would be fully stocked in the Indian interest and the Indians of the reserve would be practically self- supporting. Some of the most successful stockmen of the local country, men who respond splendidly when asked to pass upon the practicability of a scheme of this sort, come forward to say that under our unique conditions the proposition is abso- lutely safe and sane. I trust that it will seem so to those to whom it will, in good faith, be presented. Our condtions are ideal. The reservation is not yet even surveyed ; allotment will doubtless be as much retarded here as anywhere in the country; the reser- vation is fenced; it is unusually well watered; it has ideal winter pro- tection- hay can be readily grown for winter protective feeding; there are no railroads nearer than 50 miles ; our Indians have been taught to refrain from cattle killing- our lessees are anxious to again lease the grazing privileges, thus showing practicability of growing foreign cattle ; the market is higher than ever before in the history of the stockyards ; we grow the heaviest and the best beef 1808 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION. brought to the Chicago markets: these Indians are worth while doing the unusual thing for. I will be glad if you like the tenor of the plan as outlined above to have your valued support in putting forward. I have secured in the past three years from various sources some 90 draft- bred studs for these Indians and I wish I could point out to you directly on the ground the splendid economic results from this step to improve the horse stock of Indians. The more I live in this good grass country the better I real- ize what great opportunities for increased wealth are lost to the Indians through lack of use of good stallions. I find that the $15 Indian mare on the first cross with a well-selected stud can readily bring as a 4-year-old under present market conditions $75, and many thousands of such animals can be grown on each reservation. We are noted now for good studs and in consequence the reputation advances to our Indians the price received even for their run-of-the- range stuff. You see I am writing as though you were still in harness and, in fact, as far as goes, I am satisfied that you will never wean yourself away from constructive concern in the Indian. I expect to take a large shipment of cattle to market in Chicago September 1 and then to return to perfect plans for the foray outlined above, which will be undertaken in November. Mrs. Eddy joins me in best wishes. Sincerely, yours, Mr. Francis E. Leupp, Tyringham, Mass. CONTRACT AGREEMENT. This agreement evidences that R. R. Selway, of Sheridan, Wyo., and J. H. Eddy, superintendent of the Tongue River Agency, Lame Deer, Mont., for and on behalf of the undersigned, John Redheads, a member of the Northern Chey- enne Tribe of Indians of said agency, do hereby contract and agree as follows: Said R. R. Selway hereby bargains, sells, and delivers to the said John Red- beads, Indian, two mares, described as follows: Color, bay (4), gray (2); weight, 1,100 pounds; age 4 and 2; branded (T) on right jaw; for a total con- sideration of $300, to be paid by the said John Redheads within 24 months from date hereof out of any moneys received by said John Redbeads, Indian, from sale of his cattle or from any moneys earned by said Indian during the time that the above debt or any portion thereof remains unpaid to said R. R. Selway; and it is hereby mutually understood and agreed that there is to be no interest charged on this account except on such portion as may remain unpaid on No- vember 1, 1914, which portion to draw interest at the rate of 10 per cent per annum from November 1, 1912. And said John Redbeads, Indian, and said J. R. Eddy, superintendent, for and on behalf of said John Redbeads, Indian, hereby acknowledge having received the above described animals on November 1, 1912, which is the date of this agreement. And it is hereby mutually under- stood and agreed that the above-described mares and their increase are to re- main in the possession of said John Redbeads, Indian, and subject to the control of J. R. Eddy, superintendent, as security for the payment to R. R. Selway of the consideration herein stated. And said R. R. Selway is to be kept fully advised as to the number of increase from above mares and their brands they are branded. And we, the undersigned, hereby accept this contract as binding and signed in good faith, but no financial obligation is assumed by reason of same by the superintendent or by the United States Government. R. R. Selway. J. R. Eddy, Superintendent, For and on behalf of the undersigned — John Redbeads (his thumb mark). Witness : Prank A. Nelson. I, Willis Roland, a member of the Northern Cheyenne Tribe of Indians, of Lame Deer, Mont., hereby certify that I have truly interpreted the foregoing instrument to the undersigned, John Redbeads, and' that he understands the intents and purposes of said instrument, and is agreed to same. Willis Rowland, Interpreter. TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION . 1809 [Personal. J. R. E.] December 0. 1012. Mr. George Bird Grinnell, 238 East Fifteenth Street, Neic York City, N. Y. Dear Mr. Grinnell: I have your letter of December 7, and regret that engagements prevent your coming here early this -week, and if it proves im- practicable for you to come to Washington before Tuesday evening of next week I will at once, upon hearing from yon, return to Lame Deer. Mr. Abbott has just advised rue that the House threw out of the Indian bill the $100,000 item but allowed the Pine Eidge matter to stay in the bill. He is much disappointed that the $100,000 was cut, and suggested that I urge upon you the advantage your presence would be before the committee at this time if it is practicable for you to join with us in seeing the committee. A great deal of cut has been made throughout the Indian bill, which goes to the Senate at once, and it is reported that the Indian bill will be the first of the large appro- priation acts to be disposed of. I have received from Lame Deer a detailed report individually showing what 250 beneficiaries have received and made re- payments upon. This report makes a splendid basis for appeal to the committee for further funds of the same sort, and there is much sympathy with our project right here in the office. Aware that your custom prevents you from making use of Fridays and Sat- urdays, I hardly dare hope that you may feel free to come before next Tues- day evening, and I would not make this last mentioned of the matter we have in mind if it were not that any action to be had this session must be promptly given to be effective on account of the early anticipated passage of the Indian act. All of our matters are receiving good attention, and I feel well rewarded. With best wishes to Mrs. Grinnell and yourself, I remain, Sincerely, yours, [Personal. J. R. E.] December 11, 1912. Mr. George Bird Grinnell, 238 East Fifteenth Street, New York, N. Y. Dear Mr. Grinnell : I received your letter of the 10th this morning, and can well understand how it is difficult for you, without advance notice, to leave New York, but it is pleasing to feel that some time later you may find it con- venient to visit Washington. I will leave on Thursday or Friday evening, having done all that could be done here; very well satisfied with the results of the visit. Yesterday, at Mr. Abbott's suggestion, I took the report of use of our reimbursable fund to Mr. Mundell, of the Appropriations Committee, had an hour and a half with him, and was able to set forth our situation to him. He expressed much in- terest in what was being done, and seemed to look upon it as a good business proposition for the Government to allow the Indians the $100,000,000 that we asked for, and I feel sure that if later you see him you will feel that he has a business sympathy at least with our proposition. It seems probable that we will be able to have our grazing funds set aside for general-purpose improvements rather than for school support, a prospect which is indeed a pleasing one. It looks, too, as though we would have a freer hand hereafter in the use of our cattle moneys. I saw Mr. Newell this morning, showed him something of the work that is being done; he is much pleased with it also, and expressed the hope that you would call on him at any time when you come to Washington. Hale, fortunately for us always efficient, reports that the schools are full, and that conditions are generally happy. I find from the bureau here that the superior of the mission is not to be transferred, but that hereafter the business charge of the school will rest with the rector of the mission. I will write you again just before I leave Washington, to let you know of any definite developments that happen in the next few days. Supervisor Peairs, of the Indian schools, has shown great interest in Mr. Mintz's pictures, and will doubtless write to Mr. Mintz in a few days, with a view to securing use of his negatives for slides which will be shown throughout the service in stereopticon talks. With best wishes to you and to Mrs. Grinnell, I remain, Sincerely, yours, 35601— pt 14—14 5 1810 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION-. Febeuaey 14, 1913. Mr. Geobge Bird Grinnfxl, 238 East Fifteenth Street, New York, N. Y. Dear Mr. Grinnell : I regret exceedingly that after starting out upon the pilgrimage eastward, poor old White Bull found it necessary to turn back and give place to Black Wolf, whom the tribe unanimously chose as substitute for him. We are glad, indeed, to have good Black Wolf, than whom there is no better Indian, but I had counted much upon the coming of White Bull, who is so unique among men. Mr. Hale wired that the delegation previously named, with the above noted change, was to start last night, and I assume that they are now happily rolling this way. For some reason, Milton Little Whiteman comes along too. There is certainly no dearth of interpreters for this delegation. It would appear that each of the honored members of the delegation has a special message and a special interest to have it uttered by a special interpreter. We could hardly have a better delegation, and I am satisfied that Black Wolf will make an appeal to the commissioner that for breadth of view and sense can not be bet- tered. Black Wolf is really splendid in every way, and I will enjoy taking these fine fellows about. Of course, old Two Moons now rambles in his thoughts, and he is therefore hardly likely to make a very progressive display. I look for great things from Wooden Leg. If the Indians have not finery enough, would it be easy to borrow from the New York museums? I will see Dr. Hodge and Mr. Mooney here so that nothing will be passed to make the nativity of the Indians apparent. I believe arrangements can be made for the stay of the Indians at the New Capital Hotel, at corner of Third Street and Pennsylvania Avenue. Reports from Lame Deer indicate continuing cold weather, but no distress among Indians, and general good health among all. I suspect that tongues are wagging among the Indians left behind as to what this new call upon it for a delegation is all about, and from the fact that no wrangling ensued as to the make-up of the delegation, or with respect to the settlement of its bills, that the feeling among the members of the tribe must be good indeed. I feel as you do as to the importance of the Pine Ridge legislation, but on account of its being merely an authority to transfer from one fund to another amounts now due the tribe it hardly seems that we will have any difficulty. Sincerely, yours, Department of the Interior, Office Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, March 13, 1913. My Dear Gen. Allen i In connection with other matters which Supt. Eddy, of the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation, has been called to Washington to take up is that of conferring with me upon the practicability of the plan formerly prepared for breeding cavalry horses on Indian reservations. This plan was formulated several months ago after a conference between former Com- missioner Valentine, Dr. Melvin, of the Bureau of Animal Industry, and a repre- sentative of the War Department. Mr. Eddy has been successful in crossing draft stallions with Indian pony mares on the Northern Cheyenne Reservation. I shall appreciate any time that you feel able to give to Mr. Eddy in working out the details of this important proposition. Sincerely, yours, F. H. Abbott, Acting Commissioner. Brig. Gen. James Allen, Chief Signal Officer, War Department, Washington, D. C. Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Washington, D. C, March 13, 191S. My Dear Db. Melvin : In connection with other matters which Supt. Eddy, of the Northern Cheyenue Indian Reservation, has been called to Washington TONGUE EIVEE RESERVATION. 1811 DremredTv^fL ^ C0 5? errIn « wlth ™ "Pon the practicability of the plan waf form,^f^ I breeding cavalry horses on Indian reservations. This plan mfssionS V«WH Weral J B ° n,hS ag0 after a C01lf erence with you by former Com- missioner Valentine and a representative of the War Department Mr Eddv Northern E£S?i n "^ draft StalIi ° US witb India " Panares on t£e to eiveTo R? ? es ™ion. I shall appreciate any time that you feel able to give to Mr Eddy in working out the details of this important proposition, sincerely, yours, (Signed) F. H. Abbott, Dr. A. D. Melvin, Acti *° V™™****™*- Chief Bureau of Animal Industry, Washington, D. C. Note —Mr. Rommel : I think we should take this matter up now with Mr. Eddy, for I believe we can go ahead. I have discussed it some with him. (Signed) A. D. Melvin. Department or the Interior, Office Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, March IS, 191S. My Deab Dr. Melvin: In connection with other matters which Supt Eddy, of the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation, has been called to Wash- ington to take up is that of conferring with me upon the practicability of the plan prepared by you for breeding cavalry horses on Indian reservations. This plan was formulated several months ago after a conference with you by former Commissioner Valentine and a representative of the War Department. Mr. Eddy has been successful in crossing draft stallions with Indian pony mares on the Northern Cheyenne Reservation. I shall appreciate any time that you feel able to give to Mr. Eddy in working out the details of this im- portant proposition. Sincerely, yours, P. H. Abbott, Acting Commissioner. Dr. A. D. Melvin, Chief Bureau of Animal Industry, Washington, D. C. Mr. Rommel : I think we should take this matter up now with Mr. Eddy, for I believe we can go ahead. I have discussed it some with him v A. D. Melvin. New Tore:, N. Y. Mr. John R. Eddy, Washington, D. G. Dear Sir: I wrote you that I could not go to Washington this week, but I had some hope that I might be able to go down there on Tuesday. That hope has been shattered, as I have an important meeting for Tuesday at 10.30 a. m., while Wednesday and Thursday are also taken by engagements that can not be broken. I am very sorry that I can not be in Washington and see the Secretary while you are there, but this can not be. 1 am not without some hope that Congress may give our Cheyennes the $100,000 reimbursement for which Mr. Abbott has asked. If we can not get it from Congress, then it will be necessary to try other means. You will be interested, I think, as I am, to see that the New York Herald is apparently making strong drive for the betterment of Indian conditions. It is good that a paper of the wide circulation of the Herald should show interest in the subject. If Congress declines in this short session to give the Cheyennes the money they need, it may be necessary for you to come on again and see whether this sum can be raised through private philanthropy. I trust that you will succeed in getting the grazing money turned back to some use better than the school. That should be supported from school funds. I feel that this grazing money ought to be put into live stock, preferably cattle. Please write me from Washington and report such progress as seems visible. Let me know also when you are likely to leave for the West. Yours, sincerely, Geo. Bird Grinnell. 1812 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. fBxti.ict from Mohonk Conference, October, 1911.] „ -i. * * * passer, but I will always V in the position of passing the saucer. [ Applause. 1 TheCHAiRMAN. We will be further entertained by a discussion on Farming and Stock Raising among the Indians, by Supt. Eddy, of the Northern Cheyenne Reservation. Mr. Eddy. Mr. Chairman, ladies, and gentlemen, I knew but this morning that the subject named by your chairman would be assigned me. But as stock rais- ing and farming are interests that properly should be of vital importance on nearly all Indian reservations of the Northwest, perhaps this is as interesting a topic as could be given. The Indian Commissioner is laying particular stress upon the need of the field men of the service stimulating the Indians to industry. As evidence of this, I may refer to a meeting of the reservation superintendents of Montana, author- ized by Commissioner Valentine, held two years ago on the Crow Reservation, at which Assistant Commissioner Abbott, who previously, as regent of his State university, had oversight of the Agricultural College of Nebraska, and, therefore, naturally interested in reservation agricultural development, strongly endeavored to impress upon the assembled superintendents a sense of their great responsibility to make the best use. in the interest of the Indians, of the resources of their respective reservations. All the Indian reservations of the Northwest should be self-supporting. With immense areas, with fertile land, and with good markets the opportunities are abundant to enable the Indians, under intelligent direction, to attain economic independence. To illustrate these possibilities, may I speak of what the Northern Cheyennes are doing with the splendid grazing range of their reservation? Dr. George Bird Grinnell. well known to all members of this conference, has for many years been actively interested to have the Government recognize the desirability of stocking the Northern Cheyenne Reservation with cattle, and only yesterday spoke to me of the many satisfactory exchanges had between himself and our honored chairman at the time of the Vice President's connec- tion with the Indian Committee of the House of Representatives. In 1903 Congress gave these Indians 1,000 head of breeding heifers and in 1907 1,000 more. The total investment for breeding stock was within $00,000. Up to date these Indians have actually received $125,000 from sale of the in- crease of these animals and they have in addition over $250,000 worth of cattle upon the range. These satisfactory results are the more remarkable that they were achieved by the Northern Cheyennes, who have always been popularly regarded as the most voracious beef-eating Indians of the North- west. It is a fact that these Indians have recognized, as they have annually received proceeds from the sale of their cattle, that it is to their best interest to leave their cattle alone ; and this they are doing. To those who know the cattle business, when told that 2,300 calves were branded upon the reservation this year, being increase from the heifers previously mentioned as having been given them by the Government, the conclusion must be that these Indians are making a good showing in their cattle business. On other reservations similar opportunities might be given Indians to make headway. Only two or three weeks ago, in a council held at the Crow Reserva- tion, a respected chief rose in the presence of the assistant commissioner to say, "We want all our available receipts turned into cattle for us, that we may be enabled to enjoy prosperity here." It is just possible that the Crows, mixing as they do at times with the Cheyennes, have come to realize that the best use they can make of their reservation, which they own, is to turn it into a grazing pasture for the raising of cattle for themselves. I believe for the encouragement of industry that it is practicable to consider the feasibility of providing noncitizen Indians everywhere with Government funds to be reimbursable, so that at appropriate seasons each year, as required, backward Indians may be permitted to purchase seeds, implements, and work stock. The Indians will soon realize the significance of such funds and will hasten to be benefited by their use. The experience had with such funds for the past few years in Montana has been satisfactory. Of course such funds have to be handled with discretion so as to insure their ultimate return to the Treasury. The idea is to have Congress appropriate a certain considerable amount which, in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, shall be available for a fixed term of years for the purchase of equipment destined to assist worthy Indians to reach self-support. The beneficiaries of the fund TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1813 agree to make full repayment of the advances made to them within a fixed time. I am pleased to invite the conference to consider the advisability of suggesting that the privileges of such funds be extended further, as a means of encouraging industry among Indians of the country. Irrigation with some of the Indians is almost a new proposition ; and though some of the plains Indians are not naturally farmers I am glad to state that the Northern Cheyennes, for whom the Government has recently put 800 acres of land under irrigation ditches, which has been allotted in 20-acre tracts, are making commendable use of their irrigated lands. All of the allotments have been fenced, and nearly all of the 40 allottees have built root cellars and stored them full of products for winter use. The advent of a root cellar on an Indian allotment is a most encouraging sign, indicating that the Indian farmer is giving some thought to the future. I believe that Indians generally should be encouraged to carry on both stock raising and farming on their allotments. Caring for the stock makes it neces- sary for the Indian to put up forage for his stock, and as Indians are prover- bially improvident, it is desirable to inculcate ideas of providence in dealing with him, and he naturally becomes provident if obliged to put up forage for the horse and cattle stock that he is interested to raise. The holding of agricultural fairs on Indian reservations has been encouraged during the past few years by the administration, and it is believed that the same fruitful results follow to the Indian interested in these fairs as come to those of us interested to attend our customary county and State fairs. The Indian fair can be used as a means of persuading Indians inclined to leave their ranches during the cropping season to stay at home so that they may be prepared to make a good showing when the big fair festival takes place in the fall after the harvest of crops. In order that Indians may not get into the habit of going from one reservation to another to attend fairs, and thus have the fairs fail of serving their real purpose, it seems desirable that they should be held as far as practicable upon simultaneous dates. The reserva- tion fair has demonstrated its worth as a means of'arousing competitive interest among Indian farmers and stockmen, and any unprejudiced observer will be impressed that the Indian prize winner is as happy with his trophies as any successful white exhibitor at a regular county fair could possibly be. [Ap- plause.] (Notified that his time had expired.)