iilillltfP-l•i!ii;,l'•!.^v;.■.^ CORNELL UNIVERSITY LIBRARY Cornell University Library HE363.G7 A3 Report from the Select Cornnr[i"ee 3 1924 030 139 939 .^ olin ■JP^ '«« Cornell University Library The original of this book is in the Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924030139939 • EX-LIBRIS- BIBLIOTHEC^COLLHOBART PRESENTED BY EDWARD E. DE LANCEY, Esq. 1920 REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS APPOINTED To examine the Turnpike Returns now upon the Table, and the Abstract thereof, AND To consider whether any Alterations can be made in the Law relative to Turnpike Trusts ; AND TO REPORT THEREUPON TO THE HOUSE: WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMITTEE, AND AN INDEX AND APPENDIX. Ordered to be printed 30th July 1833. (24.) THE REPORT - - - - - m- iv. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE - - - - ^ 3—179. INDEX ....---- 181-200. APPENDIX 201-229. ( iii ) SECOND REPORT. BY THE LORDS COMMITTEES appointed a Select Committee to examine the Turnpike Returns now upon the Table, and the Abstract thereof, and to consider whether any Alterations can be usefully made in the Law relative to Turnpike Trusts ; and to report there- upon from Time to Time to the House ; ORDERED TO REPORT, THAT the Committee have further considered the Accounts referred to them, and have also obtained valuable Information from the Witnesses who have been called before them, which they have subjoined to their Report. The Committee have not failed to observe from the Evidence adduced, the great Benefits which have arisen from the Consohdation of Trusts round the Metropolis ; the great Saving of Expenditure which has accrued from it, the consequent Reduction and Equa- lization of the Rate of Toll, and the increased Confidence and Security of the Creditors of the Roads; they therefore cannot abstain from recommending that the Trusts leading from the Metro- polis should be placed under the Controul of the Metropolis Roads Commissioners. One of the greatest Evils in the present Road System is the Number of Trusts, as well as their limited Range and Extent. The Committee would therefore recommend every Consolidation of Trusts which their Localities and other Circumstances will permit. Such Consolidation would secure a more uniform and efficient Administration of the Trusts, by enabling the Trustees to employ more competent and skilful Officers, and a Reduction of useless Expenditure, by diminishing the Number of Clerks and other Officers, and the Outlay incurred by the Renewal of so many Local Acts. They consider it expedient that the several Acts which have been passed for the Amendment of the General Turnpike Act passed in the Third Year of the Reign of His late Majesty King George the Fourth should be consolidated and amended, and that Provision should be introduced therein directing that the annual Accounts of every Turn- pike Trust should be made up from the 1st of January to the 31st of December in each Year. That Local Acts should, unless in special Cases, be no longer limited as to Duration ; that no Officer should be removed, unless upon Notice conformable to the Clause in the said General Turnpike (24.) Act ( iv ) Act (3d George 4th) ; that Estimates of all projected Works exceed- ing Fifty Pounds be approved by the Trustees before their Execution ; and that an Estimate of the current Year's Expenditure be laid before the Trustees, and approved of by them at their General Annual Meeting. The Committee have contemplated with Alarm the Consequences of the great and increasing Amount of Debt on many Roads, and are of Opinion that the Trustees of Roads ought not to be permitted to borrow Money on the Security of the Tolls exceeding in Amount Three Years Revenue of such Tolls. The supposed Benefits to be derived from limiting the Weights to be conveyed on Roads have been so much defeated by the Practice of compounding for Overweights, that they recommend the Abolition of the Use of Weighing Engines. It appears that Combinations have been so successfully orga- nized to defeat the Provisions of the said Act of the Third Year of His said late Majesty's Reign, with respect to letting Tolls, that the Committee strongly recommend the Adoption of the Mode of letting Tolls practised in Scotland. The Measure of employing permanent Milemen with occasional assistant Labourers on the Roads has combined such indisputable Advantages, that the Committee do not hesitate to recommend its more general Adoption, and submit that such a System might be rendered contributory to Objects of general Security. The Power vested in the Trustees to compound with Individuals for their Toll has appeared to the Committee to have given rise to Abuse, and they recommend that such Power should be taken out of the Hands of the Trustees, leaving it with Individuals to make their own Arrangement with the Lessees. All the Witnesses who have been examined to that Point concur in recommending a System of general Controul over the Manage- ment of the Roads of the Kingdom, with a view to prevent an Increase of Debt, to introduce One general, economical, and skilful Course of Management, as the only Means of reducing the present great Amount of Debt, and of relieving the Country from the Burthen of Statute Labour and the high Rate of Toll now levied in many Districts. The Committee are of Opinion that such Controul would be attended with the most beneficial Results, and recommend that Measures should be taken to carry the same into eifect. They have directed an Index of the Principal Matters in the Minutes of Evidence, and an Appendix of some Papers which they think may throw further Light upon the Subject referred to them, to be annexed to their Reports. 1. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS APPOINTED /~ To examine the Turnpike Returns now upon the Table, and-tlie Abstract thereof, and to consider whether any Alterations can be usefully made in the Law relative to Turnpike Trusts ; and to report thereupon from Time to Time to the House. 1833. (24.) A NAMES OF WITNESSES. Die Mercurii, 3° Aprilis 1833. John Strettell Brickwood Esquire - - - - p. 8 John Leech Panter Esquire - ... ibid. Die Sabbati, 20° Aprilis 1833. John Strettell Brickwood Esquire - - - - p. 5 Mr. John Laurens Bicknell - - ... ibid. Die Lunaa, 22" Aprilis 1833. John Leech Panter Esquire - - - - - p. 15 Mr. John Laurens Bicknell - - . - ibid. Mr. Michael Irish ■ - - - - p. 25 Die Veneris, 26° Aprilis 1833. Mr. John Laurens Bicknell - - - - - p. 29 Mr. Michael Irish - - - - - - p. SO Die LunfE, 29° Aprilis 1833. Mr. William Baker - - - - - p. 39 Die Lunas, 6° Maii 1833. Viscount Lowther - . - . . Mr. Michael Irish . . . . . Die Veneris, 10° Maii 1833. James M'Adam Esquire . . . . Mr. John Bevir - - - . - . Die Martis, 14° Maii 1833. Mr. John Bevir - - . . . James M'Adam Esq. Mr. George Dacre - ... Die Veneris, 17° Maii 1833. Mr. John Allen Stokes - - . Mr. George Dacre - . . . . Die Lunae, 20° Maii 1833. John Macneill Esq. - ... Joseph Pitt Esq. - - . . . William M'Adam Esq. Die Veneris, 31° Maii 1833. William M'Adam Esq. - . . . Sir John Scott Lillie - - . . Mr. George Hollis - - . . The Reverend Edward Duke DieLunae, 17^ Junii 1833. Mr. Michael Irish - - - . . . p. 167 p- , 45 p- ,. 54 p- 75 p- 86 p- 91 p- 93 p- 102 p. 107 p- 117 p- 127 p- 138 p- 141 p- 147 p- 152 p- 154 p- 160 ( 3 ) Die Mercurii, 3° Aprilis 1833. The Duke of RICHMOND in the Chair. JOHN STRETTELL BRICKWOOD Esquire is called in, and examined Evidence on as follows : Turnpike Road Trusts. You are Secretary to the Commissioners for the Issue of Exchequer Bills for , „ „ tt~ , ^ Public Works? J.S.BnckwoodEsq. I am. Have you a Return of the Turnpike Trusts to which Exchequer Bills have been issued, for 1832 ? Yes, I have. The same is delivered in. The Witness is directed to furnish a similar Return for 1829, ending the 1st of January 1830. Have the Commissioners of the Exchequer Bill Loan taken possession of any of these Trusts, in consequence of the Interest or Principal not having been paid ? In one single Instance, that of the Gatton and Povey Cross Road, in Surrey ; and for which Two Loans have been issued. Some Payments have been made, and are now going on; and the Commissioners have taken possession of the Trusts, and are likely to obtain Payment by that means. The Witness is directed to withdraw. JOHN LEECH PANTER Esquire is called in, and examined as follows : J.L.FanterEsq. Are you Secretary to the Metropolitan Road Commissioners ? lam. What are those Returns you have in your Hand ? The Annual Reports of the Metropolitan Road Commissioners during the last Six Years. Are they all that have been presented to Parliament ? Yes. Deliver them in. The same are delivered in. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to the First Day after the Recess at Easter. (24,) A2 ( 5 ) Die Sabbati, WAprilis 1833. The Duke of RICHMOND in the Chair. JOHN STRETTELL BRICKWOOD Esquire is called in, and further Evidence on examined as follows : Turnpike Road Trusts. Have you prepared a Return according to the Direction of the Committee ? j ^ Brkkwood I have. , ' * Esq. Please to deliver it in. ■ The Witness delivers in an Account of the Turnpike Trusts indebted to the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners, stating the Name of the Trust and County, the Amount lent, the Date the same was lent, the Rate of Interest, the Rate of Sinking Fund, the Sum paid for Interest, and the Amount of Principal repaid in the Year 1829 ending the 1st January 1830, and also the Sum remaining unpaid on the 1st Day of January 1830. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. JOHN LAURENS BICKNELL is called in, and examined as follows : Mr. J. L. Bickneii. Are you Clerk of the Trustees of the New Cross Turnpike ? I am. How long have you been Clerk of that Trust ? About Nineteen Years. Will you state to the Committee where the New Cross Road Turnpike commences and where it ends ? It commences near the Bricklayers Arms on the Kent Road, and goes to Dartford in one Direction ; to a Place called Farnborough Well, close to Farn- borough, in another Direction ; to Foots Cray Bridge in another Direction ; and from Southend, near Lewisham, to near Croydon, across by Beckenham. How many Miles in all ? It is very nearly Forty Miles in all. The Abstract states it wrong. What was the Balance in the Treasurer's Hands on the 1st of January 1828 ? I have not that Account with me. In making out the Abstract of the Return of our Road, whoever made it out has made a Mistake in not taking the whole of the Return ; a Part of our Road is in the Coufity of Surrey and Part in Kent ; they have taken only that which relates to Kent, leaving out that which relates to Surrey, consequently Five Miles of our Road are not in the Abstract at all. What Difference does that make in the Sums? There is only One Sum in the Abstract relating to our Road that is correct at all ; that is the Mortgage Debt at that Time. But these Returns appear to have been made for different Periods :, through an Error in the General Turnpike Act, the Trusts have the Power of making out their Returns without being limited as to the Period when they shall begin them and the Period to which they shall take them. By the Act they are bound to make an Annual Return to the Clerk of the Peace ? Yes ; but the Act does not specify from what Period to what Period they shall be. (24<.) A3 Does 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. J. L. Bickneil. Does not each Trust make them up for a Year, commencing always at the — same Period ? Yes ; but many of these Returns are for one Period and many for another. The New Cross Return will be always from the same Day to the same Day in each Year? Yes. That Return will of course contain an Account of the Annual Income and Expenditure for that Year ? Yes ; but the Account in this Abstract does not do that ; the Account in this Abstract purports to end Michaelmas 1829; the Account given in the Return for our Trust is made up only to Christmas 1828, so that it makes our Date wrong, and disarranges the whole Return. You made a Statement showing the Annual Income and Expenditure and the Debt? Yes. I could have made out a Return which would have embraced that Period, but the Return taken from that by the Clerk of the Peace, which is in this Account, does not correspond with the Facts as to Dates. Do you mean to say that the Return to the Clerk of the Peace was not a correct one ? It was perfectly correct, but it is not taken correctly in that printed by the House of Lords. Do you mean to say that the Clerk of the Peace has returned it improperly ? No ; his Return is proper ; but the Return stated in the printed Abstract to be for the Year ending Michaemas 1829 is in fact the Return for the Year ending Christmas 1828 ; it is Nine Months wrong in point of Date. Is that your Handwriting (^an Account being shown to the Witness) ? It is copied from one of mine. There is no Mistake in that Account, is there ? There is not. To what Date does that purport to refer ? Between the 1st of January 1828 and the 1st of January 1829 ; whereas the printed Abstract purports to end at Michaelmas. The House of Lords called also on the Surveyors of the Turnpike Roads, and amongst the others on our Surveyor, to make a Return in the Form set out in this Abstract, but the Abstract has not even given that correctly. By whom would that be signed. By Mr. Horton Ledger, the Surveyor of the Road. Wherein is that incorrect ? Because the Abstract has left out a great Portion of the Return, our Road being in the County of Kent as well as in the County of Surrey ; whoever arranged these Abstracts has taken that Part merely which was in Kent and left out that which was in Surrey. Is there the same Surveyor for both ? Yes ; it is all one Trust. What was the Amount of Toll received between the 1st of January 1828 and the 1st of January 1829 ? Without having the Account before me, I take it this printed Account will be found correct as to that Point. Was that the whole Sum they were let for ? The whole Sum they were let for is in the Return made to the Clerk of the Peace, of which there is a Copy before the Committee. Did the Lessee rent the Penalties at the Weigh Gates ? We take no ToU for Weigh Gates. I do not know, without referring to the Mmutes, whether we had discontinued it at that Time : but we did not Ipf thl Weigh Gates when we let the Toils. °^ ^^^ ^^^ Were ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. i Were the Penalties for Offences against the Turnpike Acts let with the Mr. J. L. Biekneii. Tolls? Certainly not. Did the Lessee pay any Charges for the Leases ? Yes ; Half always. Did the Lessee pay the Charges for his Counterpart of the Leases ? There is a single Charge made for Lease and Counterpart, of which he pays Half. Was the Sum paid for Parish Composition in lieu of Statute Duty, for the Year commencing the 1st of January 1828, 484/. IJs. ? I have no doubt it was, because it is in the Return ; it was correctly stated in the Return made to the Clerk of the Peace. Do you know on what Scale the Statute Duty is made ? It has been a Composition of many Years standing before I was Clerk. Can you account why Lewisham Parish, with Six Miles One Furlong and Twenty-six Yards of Turnpike on the Trust, paid 60l., and Greenwich Parish, with Three Miles One Furlong and Fifty-three Yards, paid 801 ? Yes, it must be so ; the Statute Duty is payable according to the Quantity of Turnpike Road as compared with the Parish Roads ; therefore, if there is more Turnpike Road in a smaller Parish or a larger one, the Statute Duty will be according to such proportionate Part of the Road. Have you any general Statement to make to the Committee respecting the Management of the New Cross Road ? Yes ; the Management of the New Cross Road I take to be nearly perfect, as I think I shall prove to the Committee. In the Examination of the Accounts they go through so much of Audit and Investigation, that I think it is next to impossible any Mistake can occur with respect to those Accounts. State to the Committee what the Management is ? I will beg to state the Course of Business of the Trust. In the first place, there is a General Meeting of the Trustees takes place on the last Saturday in every Month at the Green Man on Blackheath, and (by Adjournment) oftener, if necessary. How many Trustees usually attend ? I think about Fourteen or Fifteen is the Average. The first Business transacted is the reading of the Minutes of the last Meeting, which comprise the whole of the Proceedings of the last Meeting. If the Minutes are approved as having been correctly entered in the general Minute Book, they are signed by the Trustee who was Chairman of the last Meeting. Upon the Table is placed a Paper of Agenda for that Day's Meeting, in addition to which, every Trustee introduces for Consideration such Subjects relating to the Trust as he deems to be beneficial to the PubKc. If at a former General Meeting Subjects requiring more of accurate Examination than can be given them at a Public Meeting, or requiring local Information or View, have been referred to a Special Committee, the Report of such Committee, detailing their Proceed- ings, is read and deliberated upon, and if accompanied by a Recommendation, such Recommendation is either wholly adopted or varied, or postponed or rejected, as the General Meeting decides. At this Meeting all Letters or Ap- plications or Information relating to the Roads, which since the former General Meeting have been received by the Clerk, are laid before the Trustees, and every Subject is separately discussed and determined upon. The Surveyor is called before the Meeting, and questioned as to any Matters upon which the Meeting or individual Trustees may require Information, and as to any Work which he may have in progress, and he reports whatever is required for, or which has occurred relating to, the Roads, in order that the General Meeting may give such Directions as to them shall seem to be most expedient. Perhaps a new Drain is wanted ; the Surveyor reports it to the General Meeting. The Meeting inquires as to its Necessity, and being satisfied thereof, inquires of the Surveyor as to what will be the Expence. He is in general provided at the Time with an Estimate in detail of the Cost, but always prepared with a general Estimate of the Expence, founded upon his own Calculations. If the Thing reported as (24.) A 4 necessary 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr.j.L.Bicknell. necessary is something which requires to be viewed, in order that the General Meeting may better judge of the Propriety or Manner of its being done, a Special Committee is appointed to view it, and make their Report upon it to the next General Meeting ; or if it cannot without Injury be delayed, the Com- mittee is authorized to give Directions to the Surveyor to have the Work done, if they decide upon the Necessity of doing it. If it is a Work of any Magni- tude, as a Toll House or a Well, the Committee will receive Tenders from Three or Four respectable Tradesmen in the Neighbourhood, and contract with the best and lowest Tenderer; and the Committee often superintend its Progress. When the Work is done it is reported, with its Expence, to the General Meeting; and the whole of the Reports, Resolutions, and Minutes will appear in the General Minute Book, to be referred to at all Times. The Monthly Statement of Cash received by the Treasurer, and paid by him, showing also the Amount of Bills ordered for Payment, but not taken up, and the Balance remaining in his Hands, is read to and laid before the Meeting. The Treasurer's Account, which has been previously entered into a Book, examined and certi- tied by a Committee called a Committee of Accounts, and every Sum contained in it checked by its proper Voucher, and Receipts produced for every Payment, and which Receipts must correspond with the Orders for Payment previously made and signed by the General Meeting, is laid before the Trustees, and, having been approved, is signed by Three Trustees ; and this Book is kept by the Clerk, and laid upon the Table at every General Meeting. A Duplicate of the Treasurer's Book is kept by the Trust. The Treasurer has his own Account kept by him signed by the same Committee, for his Discharge. Orders for Payment of Bills, which have been previously examined and certified, and recommended for Payment by the. Committee of Accounts, are signed in Duplicate by tlie General Meeting ; one of which remains with the Clerk as^ a Document, and the other is given to the Treasurer with the Bills, as his Authority for Payment of the Bills mentioned in such Order. These Orders are also entered at the Foot of the Minutes of the Day in the General Minute -Book, and are signed by the Chairman as Part of the Minutes. At the General Annual Meeting there are several Things, directed by the General Act of Parliament to be done, which are done in addition to the ordinary Business. Every Three or Four Years the General Meeting appoints a Committee of Four or Five Trustees to view the whole Line of the Road, to inspect the Turnpike Houses, the Gates and Toll Bars, Milestones, Water Tables, &c., ^nd to take an Account of the Quantity of Materials in Deposit or on the Sides of the Roads, provided for Use. This general Survey generally takes up Two or Three Mornings ; and I wish to mention to the Committee, that never since I have been Clerk has there been a single Dinner or Refreshment given at any of the Meetings. What has been the Expence generally of the Monthly Meetings ? No other Expence than the Room. Then there is the Committee of Accounts, which checks all the Bills. It consists of Trustees who are considered con- versant with Accounts, or with the Details of the Business of the Trust and are expected to give their Attendance to the Duties imposed upon the Committee. The Committee meets regularly on the Monday previously to the General Meeting at the Green Man at Blackheath ; and at this Meeting are laid before the Trustees, for Examination, first, the Surveyor's Account of the Employment of Day Labourers on the Roads, the Name of each Labourer employed, and the Sum paid to him ; secondly, the Surveyor's Account of Team Labour, in like Detail (except as to Payment, which are upon Bills delivered by the Persons whose Teams are employed, after having been examined by the Committee) ; thirdly, the Surveyor's Account of all Materials used on the Road, from whence and from whom obtained (these are also paid for by Bills delivered and examined as I have before mentioned) ; fourthly" the Details of the Watering Expence. The Surveyor's Accounts are all con- tained in a Book regularly kept by him, and when examined. Item by Item by the Committee, are signed by the Trustees examining the same. The Surveyor- makes no Payments except for the Day Labour, and occasionally for the Purchase of Ballast, for which he is obliged to pay ready Money, and for petty Expences; the Accounts for all which are examined and 'controlled hv the Committee. Every Bill for Work done for the Trust comes before the Committee ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 9 Committee for Examination. The Bill is delivered, in the first instance, by tlie Mr.J.LBickneii. Party to the Surveyor, who examines and checks it, and signs his Name at : the Bottom of it, if it is correct. ■ The Committee then examines the Bill with the greatest Exactness, and if found correct, it is marked as examined ; and the Member of the Committee who examines any Bill signs it with his Initials, thereby pledging himself for its Accuracy. The Bill is then put into a List of the Bills to be recommended to the General Meeting for Payment, which List is also signed by Two Members of the Committee. Every Bill delivered for Team Labour or carting Materials contains the Number of Loads carried upon every separate Delivery on the Roads, and describes the actual Furlong upon which such Load is placed. And as the Place of Delivery is according to the Direction of the Surveyor, he first examines the Bill to see that every^Delivery has corresponded with his Directions ; and, having certified the Bill, it is delivered to the Committee for Examination, and marked and recommended for Payment, as I have before mentioned. The Treasurer's Account of Monies received and paid, having been previously entered in the Treasurer's Account Book, is examined by the Committee ; and every Sum for which he has Credit as a Payment must be vouched by the Receipt of the_ Party receiving the Amount, and by the Delivery of the Bill and Receipt upon which Payment has been made by the Treasurer, to be kept with the other Vouchers of the Trust; and the Payments made must correspond with the Payments ordered. The Treasurer's separate Statement of his Receipts and Payments, distinguishing the Bills he has by him ordered for Payment, but not taken up, and setting out his Balance in hand, is also considered by the Com- ^ mittee ; and if he has in hand more than the ordinary Amount of Balance, or more Money than may be immediately required, the Committee recommend to the General Meeting to direct him to purchase an Exchequer Bill with the Surplus. By these Examinations monthly, on the Monday preceding the General Meeting, of all the Accounts of the Trust, and their subsequent Inspection and Allowance by the Monthly General Meeting, none of the Accounts of the Trust can possibly at any Monthly Meeting be One Week in arrear, nor can they, as between the Trust and the Public, ever be a Month in arrear, but are always in a State for easily ascertaining, either in gross or in detail, and by actual settled Account and Voucher, the whole Money Operations of the Trust. After the Treasurer's Monthly Account has been examined, all the Bills which have been previously dissected and separated by the Clerk, entered in a Book under different Heads corresponding with the Particulars of the Schedule set out in the Act of Parliament for the Annual Returns to the Clerks of the Peace, are again examined by the Committee, and the various Heads of Expenditure checked, and signed ; so that the Trustees or the Public may ascertain at any Moment the detailed Expences of the Trust, how much Labour, how much Cartage, how much Material, &c. has been expended for any Month or Number of Months upon the Roads af the Trust. , When was this Arrangement first made ? The dissecting of the Bills has been about a Year and a Half or Two Years; the dissecting of the Bills into Parts, so that if any Information was required it could be immediately given. What has been the Result of this Management? That the Trust is not in Debt a single Shilling, either upon Mortgage or upon Floating Debt. Are the Roads in good Repair ? Excellent. Has the whole of the Debt returned in the Report heen paid off. Every Shilling, both Floating and Mortgage. Can you account for there having been Three Acts of Parliament since 1809 for this Trust ? Yes. One of the Acts of Parliament was for enabling the Trustees to make an Alteration by Lee and over Blackheath, in order to lessen the Danger of Blackheath Hill, there being a dangerous Winding to Blackheath Hill j and that they might not get the Trust into Debt, they obtained from Parliament the Power of taking an Improvement Toll till the Debt incurred by that Improvement was paid off; a Halfpenny Toll. There was a dreadful Accident (24.) B happened 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr.J.L.BickneU. happened to one of the Woolwich Coaches, by which several Persons were very much injured. It was necessary to take down some Houses, that the Coachmen might better see each others Coaches coming. Is that Improvement Toll still levied ? No. When did it cease ? Not many Months ago. Had you a Meeting on the 28th Day of April 1832, at Blackheath? I cannot speak to the Day without referring to the Minutes. Did the Trustees then come to the following Resolution : " That it is the Intention of the Trustees, at the Expiration of the present Lease in September next, to declare that Tolls to the Amount of 3,000/. a Year at least shall cease to be taken on the said Road, and the Trustees hope and expect to be able to afford the Public a still further Relief from Toll at no distant Period ?" Yes. Did the Trustees realize this Expectation ? Perfectly. How much Toll did you take off in consequence? We took off the Halfpenny Toll, which amounted to from 2,600/. to 3,000/. Could you have legally maintained that Toll after you had paid off the Debt for the Improvement. No, we could not, without another Act of Parliament, There was an Inten- tion to apply to Parliament to make further Improvements, but we did them without a Bill, and without any additional Toll. Can you deliver to the Committee on Monday an Account of the Expence of each of the Three Acts of Parliament passed in 1809, 1827, and 1830? Yes. I do not recollect Three. If there was a Third it must have been on the old Act expiring. Since you have reduced the Toll, what is the Toll now remaining on your Trust? The last expired Lease terminated on the 30th of September 1832, by which the Tolls were let at 17,040/. a Year ; they were then let again to the same ' Lessees for One Year, at the Rent of 14,600/., the Halfpenny Toll having been taken off. Does that Lease include the Watering Toll ? We always include that in our Lease of the Toll. How much Toll is charged upon a Horse in a Two-wheeled Carriage, a Gig for instance, going from hence to Dartfbrd ? The common Toll is Sd. a Horse. For some Months in the Year, begin- ning with March and ending the 1st of October, there is what we call the Watering Toll ; then the Toll is 4>d. This Toll will be paid at the Gate called the Green Man Gate, which is the first on our Trust. He will again pay (but only Sd.) at the Crook Log Gate. There are only Two Tolls on our Road in a direct Line. The Trust begins at the Bricklayer's Arms, and near that is the first Toll paid ; then the next Toll must be after the Passenger has gone Ten 'Miles farther on. How much Toll would be charged on a Gig and Horse to Farnborough He would pay ^d. in the Watering Toll Months. Do you know what the Metropolitan Road Commissioners receive at their Gates ? No, I do not. What is your Toll on Horses drawing Carts and Waggons ? For every Horse or Mule drawing any Coach, Chariot, Caravan, Chaise Calash Hearse, or such like Carriage, drawn by One or more Horses and for every Horse or Mule drawing any other Carriage whatever driven with Reins • except Stage Coaches with Four Horses, 3d. For every Horse drawing any Stage ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 11 Stage Coach with Four Horses, M. For any Horse or Mule drawing any Mr. J. L. BickndL Waggon, Wain, Cart, Dray, or other such like Carriage, having the Fellies of the Wheels of the Breadth or Gauge of Nine Inches, Id. ; Six Inches, Hd. ; less than Six Inches, Q^d. For every Ox drawing (as last above). Nine Inch, ^d. ; Six Inch, Id. ; less. Id. Every Horse or Mule not drawing, lid. Every Ass, drawing or not drawing, Id. Every Ox or other Neat Cattle, Id. Every Calf, Hog, Sheep, or Lamb, ^d. Every Horse or Mule drawing any Coach or such like Carriage, licensed to carry more than Six and less than Twelve Passengers, 4ild. ; if licensed to carry Twelve or more inside Pas- sengers, 6d. (instead of the former Tolls). For same Horse, &c. after travelling Ten Miles from a Gate (at which Payment has been made) in a direct Line, a further full Toll. Carriage returning laden with Fish, going and returning with a Passenger, Toll as for Horses carrying for Hire. One Penny per Horse for watering from 1st March to 1st October. How much of the Forty Miles in your Trust is principal Road ? I conceive every Part of the Road to be principal except that from Southend to Croydon, which is not so much used as the Remainder, though it is the direct Road between those Places, and when Examinations at Addiscombe take place there is a great deal of Traffic along that Road ; at the same Time it is not so much a High Road as the other Parts of our Trust. Has there been a great Reduction of late Years in the Price of Materials used on your Road ? Very great. How do you account for the Reduction ? I think One Reason is that it is made more a Business than it used to be ; that Persons pick up Flints in the Fields about Dartford and elsewhere as a Livelihood, which formerly they did not. Do you not buy any Materials from Vessels in Ballast ? Yes ; that is the best Material there is, I understand from our Surveyor, but we can very seldom get it; it comes in the East India Ships as Ballast. Has that decreased in Price ? That lies so much with the Surveyor that I cannot speak to it. Are you aware that you have in a certain Degree the Monopoly of the Purchase of those Materials, in consequence of your Road being near the River, which gives you a great Advantage over other Trusts ? I am not aware of that Fact ; if we get all it is very little ; now and then a Vessel discharges it, and our Surveyor has Directions to purchase it when he can get it, and he must pay ready"Money for it, and the Bills come in from him. The picked Flints are the principal Material. Do you know what Length of Granite Road you have got? I should say not a Mile of entire Granite Road, but of this I cannot speak accurately. Can you say what is the Expence per Mile of the Road to Greenwich ? We had a Return made of the Expence per Mile for the first Three Miles and Three Quarters of our Road ; but that is some Time ago, and I think it would be much cheaper now than it was in 1829- That is the Road which has the heaviest Wear upon it ; Double and Treble the other Parts. This cost 4,685/. for the Year ; but in the next Year, when I asked the Surveyor whether there was any Alteration, he said that the Coat of Materials over the whole of that Part of the Road, which in 1829 would have cost 752/., in 1830 would have cost only 460/. The Materials have become much cheaper than fornierly. Do you refer to your Materials generally ? Yes ; our Materials used there are principally Flints ; ,we get them chiefly from Croydon. Who supplies you with Flints? We contracted with a Man named Yates for Ightham Stone, but it was not used ; that was at 135. 4c/. per Cubic Yard. We had a Contract with (24.) B 2 Mr. Bastard 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. j.L. Bickncii. Mr. Bastard for Blue Whinstone at I65. Gd. per Yard ; I believe the Surveyor tried it, but that it was found so expensive he gave it up. We contracted with a Man named May for Land Flints or picked Flints for a Part of the Road near Deptford at 45. 6d. per Cubic Yard ; with a Man of the Name ot Stockwyn for the Road near Farnborough at 85. per Cubic Yard, (the Price somewhat depends on the Distance they have to bring it) ; with a Man of the Name of Penfold for Flints delivered at the New Cross Wharf at 5s. 9d. the Cubic Yard ; that is for a very principal Material with us, called Croydon Flints oi' Croydon Gravel. Do they come by th6 Canal ? ^ , -r^ v Yes; we contract with a Man of the Name of Yates for the Delivery of Material at the Surrey Canal Wharf at 35. Ud. per Yard ; at Deptford Creek Wharf at 35. lOd ; at the Woolwich and New Charlton Wharf at 45. Id. Those are all our Contractors for Materials. Are thev procured by public Tender ? Yes ; and we have given Notice to determine our present Contracts, and we shall put them up to Tender again in the course of a Month or Two, Do you pay any Attention to the subdividing the Contracts, so as to enable Persons to bring Flints from a short Distance ? . Close to us there are no picked Flints ; we cannot get any. The Material we are obliged to have at Shooters Hill comes from the Crown Pits. It is, I understand, inferior Gravel. At many other Places. there is no Material to be had in the immediate Neighbourhood; we are therefore obliged to have those Materials from Persons farther oif. Do you get any from the Coast ? No; our Road is not immediately near the River ? In the Return of 1821 the New Cross Trust had no Bonded Debt; at Michaelmas 1829 the Bonded Debt is stated at 4,000/. and the Floating Debt at 4,256/. 195. ? Yes ; that is wrong ; it is not correct ; for the Abstract of the Return is in Fact up to the previous December 1828, and in 1829 we had paid off about 2,000/. of that Floating Debt. How was that Debt incurred, as you had an Improvement Toll ? We had an Improvement Toll only during Part of the Time. The Reason we borrowed the Money on Mortgage was, that at the Time we did the Work we wanted Money immediately to pay for our Materials as we had them, and we borrowed 4,000/. on Mortgage, charging the Improvement Toll with its Repayment. Had you any thing to do with the Act for the Improvement at Bromley? Yes ; I solicited that Act. Is Bromley in your Trust? Yes. Has the Improvement at Bromley, for which the Act of 11 Geo. 4. was passed, been effected ? No. Why has it not? Because the Parties asked such an enormous Sum of Money the Trustees did not feel they were justified in proceeding. There were several Interests, some of which will die away in a very short Time, or lessen ; and they did not like going into a Work which would cost them so very heavy a Sum. From Time to Time the Trustees have considered that there was another Way of making those Improvements, and at the very next Meeting the Question will be which of those shall be taken, with a Recommendation that the orio-inal one under the Act of Parhament shall be done. "^ Whfit is the Amount of your Salary? a^SOO a Year. Is ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 13 Is that all you receive from the Trustees for the Meetings and adjourned Mr. J. L. Bickneii. Meetings ? For every thing, except actual Law Business. In the Return for 1829, Salaries to Clerks, Surveyors, Law Bills, Printing, Advertising, Stationery, and incidental Charges, are set down at 1,351/. I6s. 6d. ; will you deliver into the Committee a detailed Account of those Charges ? Certainly, I will prepare it. By referring to the same Page, it appears there is, for Repairs to Toll Houses, Gates, &c. the Sum of 1,535/. 15s. Id. ; can you produce to the Committee a detailed Account of those Expences ? That is no Part of my Return to the Clerk of the Peace ; that must have been delivered by the Surveyor, or taken from some other Return. The Surveyor has made a Return ; I have got that ; but this Abstract does not contain that. I am puzzled to find out a single Figure except the Mortgage Debt, for it does not correspond with the actual Return in a single Instance. Can you produce a Return of the Law Expences of your Trust for the last Seven Years ? Certainly ; I can give the whole for every Year while I have been Clerk. Is the Team Labour entirely by Contract ? Entirely by Contract, except within the last few Months One of the Con- tractors had got no Horses. Do you pay your Treasurer any Salary ? None at all. What is he ? A Gentleman living on Blackheath. Is he a Banker? No, he is not. Do you find any Difficulty ill procuring the Attendance of Trustees on the Meetings of the Committees ? We have once or twice, when Parties have been ill ; once in the last Year there was a Deficiency. Generally the Trustees attend the Committees constantly and regularly to do their Duty ? Yes, and most conscientiously so. Is the Watering done by Contract ? No ; the last Contract we had was for the upper Part of the Road, and that we have discontinued, for the Man never did his Duty. We were obliged to keep a Man to look after him. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Monday next, One o'Clock- (24.) B 3^ ( 15 ) Die Lunce, "ITApHlis 1833. The Duke of RICHMOND in the Chair. JOHN LEECH PANTER Esquire is called in, and further examined as Evidence on follows : Turnpike Road Trusts. Have you brought with you the Seventh Report of the Commissioners of j. l. Panter Enq. Metropolitan Roads? I have. Is it signed ? It is. The Committee direct that you will deliver in the same. The Witness delivers in the same. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. JOHN LAURENS BICKNELL is called in, and further examined as follows : Have you prepared any of the Returns ordered on Saturday ? I have. I beg to present a lithographed Plan of the Road (delivering in the same'). This is a detailed Account of the 1,351/. ; those Figures are not mine at all ; they are aggregate Sums made out by the Gentleman who pre- pared the Return — not at all my Returns. I beg to hand in a Set of the Accounts for the New Cross Trusts j the Annual Statements for 1829, 1830, and 1831 (^delivering in the same). How many General Meetings took place in the Year 1829 of Trustees and Committees of Trustees ? Forty-four ; the latter being held at various Places in the Trust. By the Account from the 1st of January 1829 to the 1st of January 1830 there is a Charge of I7/. 155. paid for the Use of Rooms for the Commissioners, and from the 1st of January 1828 to the 1st of January 1829 a Charge of 17/. 10s. ()d. for the same Purpose ; how much do you pay for the Use of the Room for each of the Meetings ? Ten Shillings ; never any more. By the 4th of Geo. 4. it appears that you are authorized to pay 20^. within Five Miles of London ? We pay 10s. only. It appears, by the Accounts returned by you to the Clerk of the Peace, that there was a Charge of 60/. paid to a Mr. Hardy as a Superannuation Allowance ; who is Mr. Hardy, and by what Authority have the Trustees granted this Pension ? He was for a great many Years a Surveyor of the Trust ; he was an exceed- ingly attentive and diligent Surveyor ; he became ill during the Time he was Surveyor; and though there was no express Authority for giving him that Superannuation, the Trustees did not think themselves justified in turning him off, and adding the Superintendence to Mr. Ledger's Duties, without giving him some Retirement. He is now dead. B 4 Hav© Mr. J. L. Bickuell. (24.) 16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. J. L. BichieU. Have any other Superannuation Allowances been given by the New Cross — Trustees ? None whatever ; it was only under those special Circumstances the Trustees gave it. Do you admit that there is no Authority under the General Turnpike Act, or under your Local Act, for this Payment ? There is certainly no express Authority. We put his Part of the E,oad to one of the Surveyors in existence, and have continued it ever since, so that there has been no Loss to the Trust in consequence. The Trust altered Mr. Ledger's Salary, but did not give Mr. Hardy's Salary to the Person to whom we gave -his District. We have now only Two Surveyors ; we then had Three. Were the old Materials of the Houses at Blackheath sold by Auction or by private Contract? I am almost certain they were sold by Auction ; I have no doubt of the Fact ; but the Surveyor was left to do it, and make a Return of the Result. What Length of the New Cross Roads is repaired by the Rotherhithe Trust, for which 150/. is paid annually. That Payment has ceased. It is a Branch of the New Cross Road that went towards Rotherhithe ; it was found more convenient that the Rotherhithe Trust should repair it than the New Cross Trust, and when put away from the New Cross Trust the Rotherhithe Trustees would not undertake it without a Payment ; but by the last Act of Parliament that was done away with, and it is quite out of our Trust now. What has been the Average Charge of your Acts of Parliament ? The Act of Parliament of the 7th Geo. 4th, in 1826, cost upwards o£ 5001., 5201., but it was opposed. I have looked at the Bills, and I find out of that 520/. about 400/. was paid out of pocket to Witnesses and for Fees of the House, 8fc. which Fees were then paid by the Trusts. Are the Fees of both Houses of Parliament now paid out of the Consolidated Fund ? Yes. The Committee will see the Difference; when the Bromley Improvement Bill passed, that came only to about 280/. From whom did you purchase the Houses at Blackheath ? Some of them from Mr. Blissett and Miss Grove, and others from the Trustees of Morden College, I think. Were they bought by Auction or by private Contract ? Those of Morden College by the Verdict of a Jury ; the others were pur- chased by private Contract ; the others were not in the Improvement Act and therefore we could not take them by Verdict. Was 2,643/. 17s. the only Sum expended on Improvements at Blackheath Hill? As the Abstract and the Returns vary in Date, I am unable to speak to the Fact ; as they stand in the Abstract they are not correct at all ; therefore, when speaking to Sums, I am speaking to that which is not correct in the Abstract, which is the Basis of the Inquiry before the Committee. In your Annual Return from the 1st of January 1829 to the 1st of January 1830 there is the Item, " To Purchase of Houses at Blackheath Hill, 2,350/. ?" That is perfectly correct, but that is not the Sum in the Abstract. You state that, the Sums being incorrect, you are unable to answer the Question ; do you mean that the Abstract is incorrect altogether, or only that it does not tally with the Heading ? I mean that that which is stated in the printed Returns to be the Expen- diture and Income of the Trust is neither the Income or Expenditure of the Trust for the Time which purports to be contained in the Account. That is, that it does not tally with the Heading? The printed Account is of the Gross and Nett Expenditure; a Statement of the Debts and Income of the Trust ending Michaelmas 1829 ; it is not so that is not the Fact. Is ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 17 Is it' the Gross: Income and the Expenditure of. the Trust for any Period, Mv. J. L. Bickneii. beginning at any and what Time, and ending at what Time? The Account is an Account of the Expenditure of the Trust from the 1st Day of January 1828 to the 1st of January 1829. Are the Figures introduced into that printed Abstract correctly taken from that Account ? Yes, I conceive they are ; except that whoever has made out that Account has put together Articles which are not put together in the Account returned to the Clerk of the Peace. I have been obliged to guess 'what Articles are put together ; they are not my Figures. One of the Articles is, " Repairs to Toll House, Gates, &c.," amounting to 1,535/. I have taken Items out of that Statement which will correspond with those Figures, but it is any thing but Toll Houses and Gates. Then that Account so given in is a true Account of the Expenditure and Income of One Year ? A perfect Account of that Year of the Expenditure and Income. Not beginning and ending, as it piu'ports to do in the Abstract, but for a different Period ? Yes. In this Account before the Committee, which purports to be a general Statement of the Income and Expenditure from the 1st of January 1828 to the 1st of January 1829, One Item appears to be 4,256/. 19^., viz. the Account of Floating Debt for Materials delivered and Work and Services performed? Yes, just so. The Committee have before them an Account purporting to be from the 1st of January 1829 to the 1st of January 1830; was that Return made by you ? ■• Yes, no doubt it was. Can you point out to the Committee in what way that floating Debt, as it appeared in the former Account, appears to be disposed of in the latter Account ? Yes ; because in the Second Account referred to, ending 1st January 1830, there is an Account of the Sums paid for Materials, there is an Account of the Sums paid for Labour, and there is an Account of the Sums paid for every Incident, which of course includes that Floating Debt ; that Floating Debt is composed of those various Things which have been paid for the next Year. The Sum charged — a Sum of 5,5631. lis. 6d. — for Gravel, Flints, Chalk, and other Materials, is not applicable to Materials only furnished between the 1st of January 1829 and the 1st of January 1830, but in part to Materials , furnished the Year before ? Yes, certainly. In point of fact, the Return sent to the Clerk of the Peace, purporting to be a Return from the 1st of January 1829 to the 1st of January 1830, was not audited before Michaelmas 1830? No; the Annual Meeting of the Trust did not take place till that Month, for the Annual Meeting is either to be in April, September, or October ; our Annual Meeting was formerly in the latter Part of the Year. The Trustees have made an Alteration in that respect, and in future it is to be in April. It is one of the Faults of the General Turnpike Act that it directs that the Clerks of the Trust shall make up their Returns according to the Schedule to that Act ; the Schedule to the Act does not give any Dates at which they are to begin or terminate their Account, so that every Trust in the Kingdom has the Power to choose from what Time and to what Time the Yearly Statement or Account shall be made, and whether that Account shall be audited in April, or the following September or October. Probably there will be in any new Act a Direction that all the Clerks of Trusts shall make up their Accounts from a specified Time to a specified Time ; and that the Annual Meeting, instead of being in April, September, or October, shall be always in April, and then the Accounts will be always audited within Three Months of (24.) C the 18 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. J. L.Bicknell. the Time of their ending. Not only is our Floating Debt made by the Abstract 2,000/. greater than it was at the Time, but our Trust is made Five Miles shorter than it should be. It makes us appear to have spent a greater Sum of Money on a Road Five Miles shorter. The Returns are incorrect in another respect ; they do not furnish the Committee with a View of the real State of the Turn- pike Roads even at that Time. There is no Item in any of those Returns for the Amount of Materials in Deposit, but charged for against the Trust, and which, when put together, amount to a very considerable Sum. At the Time when that Account purports to have been made up we had about 2,000/. worth of Materials on the Sides of the Roads, charged against the Trust. If there was a Column for Materials on the Road, taking the Amount of our Annual Tolls, and the Quantity of Materials we had, we should have a Credit for One Eighth Part of a Year's Income. If that is so throughout the Kingdom, it would make 150,000/. or thereabouts. Does the Account furnished by you aiFord any Means by which the Clerk making up that Abstract could have entered the Quantity of Materials in Deposit ? No ; I merely call the Attention of the Committee to an amended Schedule for that Act, which is necessary ; for the Schedule ought to state the Expence of Materials on each Trust, and the Price of Labour, and then Parliament would have a very valuable Statistical Document before them. Did you employ a Person to survey the Houses you bought by Contract at Blackheath? Our Surveyor is a Surveyor by Profession ; he understands thoroughly every Part of it ; and we have on our Trust Three or Four Gentlemen perfectly cognizant of every Part of the Subject, and who often go and view in such Cases. There is a Sum allowed for the Hire of Carriages for the Commissioners ; what is the Meaning of that Item ? I mentioned to your Lordships on Saturday, that every Three or Four Years the General Meeting appoints a Special Committee of Four or Five Trustees to go round the Roads, who take an Account of every Heap of Materials on the Road, so that they may know the Aggregate Amount, and who look at every Part requiring Alteration. This takes Three whole Days. I have said there was no Meeting on which the Trustees had any Refreshment, but they have some Refreshment on that D|ay. It takes from Nine o'Clock in the Morning till Five or Six in the Evening, but even then they do not dine together. Was that Sum expended for the Hire of Carriages for the Gentlemen on that Occasion ? Yes ; actually paid to the Landlord of the Green Man at Blackheath. It appears by the Account between the 1st of January 1829 and the 1st of January 1830 that Three Quarters of a Year's Salaries are only charged • have the goodness to explain the Reason ? ' Our General Meetings are held on the last Saturday in every Month ; but if the Account is to be made up to Christmas or the End of the Year if the last Saturday in the Month happens to be before the Time the Salary becomes due then of course that will not go into that Year's Account, but into the follow' ing Month of the next Year ; then one Year will have Three Quarters in it and the next Five Quarters. ' It appears in the Account that you have paid 51. 10s. 6d. to Informers • what Description of Persons were they ? ' It frequently happens there are Penalties paid to the Trust for Coaches bemg overloaded, or something of that kind. If it is a Case where a Man has been so negligent as to deserve the Magistrates pressing the Fine unon him we give the Informer a Part of the Money, which would otherwise come to the Trust. There are some Penalties on the Road which it is necessary to take care shall be enforced, if they can be. ^css^tiy lo Do you sell the Road Scrapings ? Yes, by public Tender. There ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 19 There is a heavy Charge for Hire of Horses for Water Carts ; is that done Mr. j. l. Bickneii. by Tender ? ' It is done by Advertisement for public Tenders, and the lowest Persons Tenders are taken. It is not a separate Contract for the Water Carts, but a Contract for Team Labour generally. Do the Trustees serve gratis, or are they paid ? They serve gratis, and they take a great deal of Trouble. Have you any Suggestions to make respecting an Amendment of the present General Turnpike Law ? Yes. In the first place the General Law requires Amendment by a Con- solidation of the Acts. There are Ten Acts comprising the General Turnpike Law, and those Acts might be consolidated into One ; and if these General Turnpike Acts are properly revised and consolidated, it would, I conceive, render waste Paper at least a Thousand Local Acts of Parliament. There are 1,119 Trusts, each of which has One, and some Two, and some Three Acts ; and if the General Turnpike Acts were consolidated, as they might be, into a general Code of Laws for the general Regulation of Turnpike Trusts, that would, in my Opinion, render perfectly useless at least a Thousand of those Acts of Parliament. Could not a general Law be introduced which would apply to all local Trusts ? The General Turnpike Act was intended for that ; but the Details of Turn- pike Trusts were not so well known then as they are now, and the Act was not so perfect then as it might have been, and it is now very imperfect in comparison to what it might be. Are there any particular Circumstances within your Knowledge that would render Local Acts necessary, on the Supposition of One General Turnpike Act being passed ? I think there are certain Circumstances which would render some Local Acts necessary, but in general the Local Acts have no special Provisions which might not be taken care of in a general Act. Therefore, in your Opinion, there are Circumstances which would still render Local Acts necessary? In some Cases, where you touched a particular Interest by a Local Act, you must provide some Compensation for the particular Party ; and there are Circumstances in special Cases which could not come under a General Lawi which must be provided for by a Local Act. Could not that be provided for by giving a Power to the Quarter Sessions ? I was about to suggest that very Circumstance. Local Acts of Parliament have this Misfortune attending them, they are always for a Term of Years only. If a Trust is very heavily charged, there is nothing to force the Trustees to renew the Term of the Act of Parliament ; the Consequence might be, that whoever lent Money upon it would lose their Money : that is not fair towards the Public. A general Act to amend the present Law should provide with respect to making all Trusts act upon One consistent Principle, not the uncertain Principle which occasions all the Variations in the present Returns. The Turnpike Law, with respect to borrowing Money upon Interest, requires great Alteration ; as it is at present, the Law is inequitable and oppressive ; it might almost be said that the Law itself is fraudulent, for it induces Persons to lend Money on a supposed ParHamentary Security, which is no Security at all. It appears by the Abstract of the Parliamentary Returns just printed that there are 492 Trusts of which the Expenditure exceeds the Income by 157,683/! ; and that the whole Excess of Expenditure above Income, taking all the Trusts in England and Wales, is 44,276/. a Year. If a proportionate Amount of the Debt of 7,785,171/. 5s. Td., namely 3,500,000/., arises upon the Trusts whose 'Expenditure exceeds their Income, then there is neither Security for the Principal nor Interest of One single Shilling of that 3,500,000/. Either, therefore, the Lenders of Three Millions and a Half to the Pubhc upon a Parliamentary Security must lose their Money, or the Public generally must pay lar^e additional Tolls to repay the Money borrowed, from which they probably reaped no Benefit whatever, or the Travellers upon a particular Road must be taxed for a grievous Debt so heavily that some other Road will be made or found, so as to render the Road (94.) C 2 on 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr.j.L.Bickneil. on which the Debt is secured still more unprofitable, and unlikely to pay the Demands upon it. To spread this Debt, so unprovided for, over other Trusts which are not in Debt, would be to punish Trusts because they have acted prudently and cautiously. The New Cross Trust is entirely out of Debt, and its Roads are in good Order, and its Tolls are moderate. But they, the Trustees of the New Cross Turnpike, have not carried into eflfect the Improvement at Bromley for which they got their last Act of Parliament ? No ; but if we borrow Money to do the whole of that, we shall be out of Debt again in Three or Four Years. The Surrey and Sussex Trust, a neigh- bouping Road, owes about 50,000/. upon Mortgage ; its Income is only 155/. 95. Id. above its Expenditure. Now, if Part of this Debt should be put upon the New' Cross Roads, the Consequence must be, either that the Roads of the New Cross Trust must have a higher Toll put upon them„— and this would make the Trustees and the Travellers on that Road chargeable with the Debt of another Trust, because it had used every Means to keep itself out of Debt, — or its present good Roads must be starved, in order to discharge a Part of the Debt on the Roads of another Trust. It appears by the printed Abstract that the Debt of that Trust was 47,000/. ? Yes ; but I understand they have borrowed 2,000/. since. Their Act of Par- liament does not, I conceive, enable them to alter their System as it ought to be altered. The 155/. is the whole Surplus which is left to pay off any Part of their Mortgage Debt. I should state that I am looking at a Return made for a Year subsequent to that which is printed. The Barking Road has an Annual Income of 1,410/., and its Debts are 54,839/. The Income above Expenditure is 583/., much less than the lowest Interest which they can pay upon that Debt j therefore it never can be paid off according to the present System. Had they not, in 1829, in their Treasurer's Hands, 2,443/. 145. 5d. ? Yes, so it appears. On the Manchester and Saltersbrook Road, Page 30, the Debts were 28,966/., the Tolls 4,786/., the Surplus 175/. On the Manchester and Buxton Trust, Page SO, the Debts 98,606/., and the Tolls 11,459/., and the Expenditure is above the Income. What Sum had the Manchester and Buxton Trust in their Treasurer's Hands ? ^6,804. There is a Note at the Bottom, which states " An unappropriated Sum of 2,746/. 165. 4:d., Funded 3,916/. I65. 5d., and a Balance due from the Surveyor of 130/. 195. 2d." On the Chesterfield and Worksop Road, Page 48, the Debts were 20,880/., the Tolls 741/., and the Expenditure above the Income, there being nothing in the Treasurer's Hands. The Chesterfield and Matlock Bridge Road, in Page 48 also, the Tolls are 428/., the Debt 24,128/., and the Balance in the Treasurer's Hands 406/. The next is the Sheffield and Glossop, on the same Page ; the Tolls are 360/., no Balance in the Treasurer's Hands, and the Debt Sixty thousand and odd Pounds. There appears to have been 1,100/. Receipt from incidental Causes ? Yes ; but that may not arise the following Year. How do they manage to pay the Interest ? They borrow more Money to pay it, I suppose, if the Interest is kept paid up. In Page 220, the Uttoxeter, Stoke, and Stone Road, the Tolls were 245/., the Balance in the Treasurer's Hands 232/., and the Debt 12,613/. ; the Expen- diture above the Income. Will you turn to Page 74, Middlesex and Essex, and state what was the Income of that Trust ? The Income from Tolls 14,661/. What was the current Expenditure ? ^'12,929. What was the Income above the Expenditure ? ^£=3,098. What ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 21 "What was the Balance in the Treasurer's Hands ? Mr. j. l. BkkneU. ^,066. . What were the Debts ? ^7,587. I will beg to refer your Lordships to Page 264, the Atnesbury ; the Income from Tolls 708/., the Balance in the Treasurer's Hands 240/., the Debts 54,225/., and the Expenditure above the Income. In the Statement you have made you have omitted to say any thing of Parish Composition ? Yes ; I have merely taken the Income from Tolls. Will you turn to Page 24, and state the Particulars of the Newmarket Heath Trust ? Newmarket Heath Trust, the Income from Tolls 892/., the Balance in the Treasurer's Hands 1,043/., and the Debts 920/. The Mortgage Creditors have a Right, in discharge of their Debts, to take possession, by Ejectment, of the Tolls of the Roads on which they are Creditors. There is no Provision in the Turnpike Laws to enforce the first Monies received being laid out in the Repair of the Road. All the Monies received by such Mortgage Creditors would go in discharge of tbeir Debts. If the present Mortgagees of Tolls whose Security is bad or doubtful were simultaneously to take such a Step, the Consequence would be, that One Half of the Turnpike Roads in the Kingdom might be without any Repair at all. A single Month of Neglect might put them into a State of Injury which would cost incalculable Labour, Time, and Expenqe to restore them ; and thus much of the internal Commu- nications of the Country might be stopped by that Means. The Committee may think it an improbable Supposition that 9,000 Miles of Road should be thus taken possession of, and not be kept in repair, but they will find that in some Counties there are Turnpike Roads in the Possession of Mortgagees ; for instance, in the County of Chester, Page 29, the Manchester and Buxton Road, the Mortgagee is in possession for a Debt of 89,000/. So the Stockport and Marple ; the Mortgagee is in possession of those Two Roads, forming Fifty Miles of Road in One County, and they need not, unless they please, do a single Article of Repair on them. Do you think a general Composition might be made ? I cannot say indeed. The Extent of Turnpike Trusts is not defined or settled with respect to any Principle ; and before any good Arrangement can be made for equalizing the Tolls, or reducing the Debts, or improving the Roads, the Lines of Demarcation of the various Trusts must be altered. The Limits of many Turnpike Trusts have originally been settled with a view to getting rid of a particular Charge, which, by any Extension of the Road, might have been thrown upon that particular Trust. The Consequence has been, that such a Trust terminates, and a new Trust begins at an improper Point ; and the Traveller frequently finds Two Turnpike Gates, at both of which he must pay, within a very short Distance from each other. I submit to the Committee, that a Turnpike Trust ought always to commence at the Metropolis, and finish at some considerable Town, or to commence at one considerable Town, and terminate at another. The Tolls might then be imposed upon some systematic Plan, both as to Amount and Distance, which at present seems impracticable. As an Illustration of this ; — on the Kent Road there is no good Reason can be given which will satisfy a Traveller why at Lambeth he should pay one Toll, and be obliged Half a Mile further to stop and produce a Ticket to show that he has so paid ; and. Half a Mile further, to pay another Toll, different m Amount from the last ; and then go Ten Miles without paying any further Toll ; and immediately afterwards, within Three or Four Miles, pay Two more Tolls. Under the New Cross Act, have you a Right to charge an additional Toll at the End of every Ten Miles ? Yes ; and I think that the Traveller should be called on every Ten Miles, The New Cross Road ought, I conceive, to continue as far as Rochester, and the next Trust to continue from Rochester to Canterbury j the Contract Prices of Materials for the whole Line might be lessened by this, and the Toll might be much better apportioned. There is another strong Reason why there should be an Alteration in the Extent of Turnpike Trusts ; no Trust, except (24.) C3 under 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mf.j.L.WukncU. under peculiar Circumstances, or from being situated near to the Metropolis, where the Traffic is so great as to render Repair very expensive, ought, I conceive, to have more than One Toll for every Ten Miles of direct Road. While the present Mortgage Debts exist, and are chargeable, according to the present Mode of borrowing Money on Mortgage, such a Limitation of Tolls may not perhaps be considered practicable; but a better Mode may, I conceive, be adopted, and then it will be practicable. As an Illustration of this, suppose Two Trusts adjoining each other in a direct Line from Dartford to Can- terburv, each consisting of Twenty Miles in length ; each might fairly take in that Distance Two Tolls ; but the first Trust might have in its Portion several Hills, which it might be necessary to lower or cut down. The public Benefit must either in this Instance be foregone, or, as the ordinary Revenues would not be sufficient, this Trust must borrow Money upon Mortgage of the Tolls. The ordinary Tolls ought originally to have been apportioned only to the ordinary Repairs of the Road ; therefore either an Act of Parliament must be obtained to increase the Tolls for making the Improvement, or the Money must be borrowed on insufficient Security to assure the Repayment of the Principal, and upon insufficient Tolls to pay the Interest of the Mortgage Money, without starving the Road. To obtain greater Tolls, the obtaining the Act of Parliament adds Two or Three hundred Pounds to the Expence; and the Increase in the Tolls may fall principally upon those who have to pay at One of the Gates without going over the Hills so to be lowered, and therefore reaping no Benefit whatever from the Alteration. An Instance of that happened on the New Cross Roads. The Alteration at Blackheath Hill and Lee cost from 10,000?. to 15,000/., and a heavy Portion of the Expence attending it fell upon Persons who might never go either of those Roads, — the Inhabitants of Greenwich and Deptford going up and down from Greenwich to London and from London to Greenwich ; they therefore paid a Proportion of increased Toll without any Increase of Benefit. This Injustice was occasioned by a general Benefit being paid for out of local or particular Funds, which Mode of Improvement is not according to Equity ; and yet,'as the Law now stands, no Improvement could be made without a similar Injustice. The first Considera- tion on the Subject seems to be, how good Roads are to be made throughout the Kingdom, for which Purpose I think the present System of local Trusts and Trustees the best ; and the Reason I would give for that is, that where that Mode has been departed from it has failed ; as in the Case of the Shrewsbury and Holyhead Road, where they have most excellent Roads, the Debt upon that Trust being, I think, 376,000/. and the Tolls 6,000/. a Year ; that Debt never can be paid off by its present Tolls. The Committee will see how impossible it is to pay it off when it appears that about 100,000/., I think, of that Money is Interest added to the former Principal. There is a Case where an ordinary local Trust has not been established ; and yet, though under a different Management, the same Mischief exists, of a large Mortgage Debt upon Tolls which cannot even pay the Interest; and even if they applied Double the Tolls they have, they could not keep down the Interest. I would further submit to the Committee, that the Classification of public Roads is not founded on any sound Principle whatever. They are now divided into Turn- pike Roads and Parish Highways. Many Turnpike Roads, now under separate local Trusts, ought, with reference to their more easy Repair and to the saving of Expence, either to be united to other Trusts or considered as Parish Highways ; while many Highways which are kept in repair exclusivelv at the Expence of individual Parishes ought, with reference toother Roads in similar Circumstances, to be maintained from more general Funds. The correct and more natural Division of public Roads would be into Main or County Roads and Branch Roads,— all Roads required for general public Use and Convenience being classed under the first Head, and Roads of more limited and local Utility being classed under the latter Division. Another Consideration is whether the enormous Debts now upon the Trusts, amounting to nearlv 8,000,000/., can be paid off, or the Roads in some way relieved from the dead Weight which hangs upon them. I think one of the best Remedies which would apply to a great many Roads, would be to give a Power to the Trustees of Roads which they have not at present, to convert a Part of their Mortgage Debt into Life Annuities, because it is much easier to impose a small Toll tor the Purpose of paying Life Annuities for a certain Number of Years, than to' nut a different Toll on the Road to pay off a Gross Mortgage Debt. But so manv 13 ^c of ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. ■ 23 of the Trusts owe Debts of enormous Magnitude, without any surplus Income, Mr. J^ L. Bickneii. that, with respect to those, either the County should contribute to their Dis- charge, if necessarily incurred for County Improvements, or they should be considered Branch Roads only until some other Arrangement is made, so that the general Improvement of Main Roads should not be stopped by their Deficiencies. For the future no Trust ought to have the Power at any Time to charge its Tolls altogether with a heavier Mortgage Debt than One Year's Income amounts to. , If a great general Improvement in a Turn- pike Road is necessary, which requires more than One Year's Income of any Trust, it ought to be done by a Contribution from all the other Trusts in the same Road, such Contribution to be made proportionally with reference to the Tolls of the respective Trusts ; and such great Improvement ought not to be undertaken without the Sanction of the Court of Quarter Sessions. or some other paramount Authority, to which all the Trusts interested might appeal or be heard, upon the Improvement contemplated being deter- mined upon. All Trusts ought to make up their Accounts monthly, and have the same certified at a General Meeting, the same being first examined by a Committee of Trustees called the Committee of Accounts. Duplicates of the Yearly Accounts to be transmitted in the Form and to the Persons before mentioned, namely, the Secretary of State for the Home Department or the Postmaster General, besides those to whom they are now sent. I would submit that every Annual Statement ought to be sent in DupHcate to the Secretary of State for the Home Department or to the Postmaster General, as well as to the Clerks of the Peace, and there they would be at hand whenever Information might be required by Parliament or by the Government ; and every Statement so furnished ought to contain the Amount of Tolls actually taken. What Arrangement would you propose in respect to the Parish Labour on the Roads ? There are a great many Roads now Turnpike Roads, which I would put on Parishes, and I would take no Statute Duty whatever from the Parishes. A great many Branch Roads have been put on Turnpike Trusts formerly, which would not be done now probably ; and I think those Branch Roads should be returned to the Parishes, or the Trusts will never get out of Debt. Before any general Law is made for the Turnpike Roads, or at the same Time, I submit there should be a Revision of the Extent and Compass of Turnpike Roads, which at present are contrary to all Principle. I take the Roads which should continue Main or County Roads to be the direct Communication from one Part of the Kingdom to another, and not the cross Communication between Two or more small Towns or Villages ; and the Court of Quarter Sessions should have the Means of apportioning the Repairs of such latter Roads between Parishes ; and not that One Parish should repair Five or Six Miles of Branch Road and another One Mile, where each Parish is equally benefited by the Road, so that they should each contribute as the County may settle that they should contribute. I think there are certain Forms which might be put to the Schedule of the General Turnpike Act which would lessen the Expence. A Conveyance to Trustees ought to be in a Form as short as the one from Trustees. At present there is a^ Form of Conveyance from Trustees to any Person, but none to the Trustees ; there is a long Form of Conveyance con- sequently necessary, which might be reduced. The Forms of Contract ought to be set out, and the Forms of Leases. You have stated as your Opinion that the Management of the Turnpikes should remain with the Trustees as at present constituted ; have you had any Means of knowing in what Manner the Metropolitan Commissioners have managed their Roads ? r. , .„ , No, I have not. I may almost say I have avoided domg so, for, till the Question came before the House, I did npt take any Means to do so. I have confined myself to the Roads with which I am connected, and to the general State of those throughout the Country generally. Then in what you have stated you did not mean to say any thing against the Management of the Metropolitan Roads ? No, nor against any Trust j certainly not against the Management of the Surrey and Sussex Roads, to which I have adverted, for they have the very best Surveyor, the very same Surveyor we have. ' (24.) C4 Does 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. J. L. liickneii. Does the Treasurer of your Trust give Security ? Yes ; much heavier than he ought I think, namely, 6,000/. ; and we never allow 2,000/. to be in his Hands. You mean that the Monthly Committees do not allow it ? Yes; whenever he has so much as that they request him to buy an Exchequer Bill. Do you think that the Payment of the Fees out of the Consolidated Fund increases the Number of AppHcations to Parliament for Turnpike Acts ? I think not ; but I conceive that the renewing Acts of Parliament is quite unnecessary. The Committee will see what I allude to, with respect to One Act of Parliament governing a great many, when I refer to the Operation of the Tax Acts. For different Districts there is only One Set of Tax Acts ; there iire separate Commissioners, separate Clerks, a separate Mode of putting them into operation throughout the Country, but only One general Act for the Taxes. Do you mean to say that the New Cross Turnpike Trust would be satisfied with the Power only to levy the same Toll as the Metropolitan Commissioners levy ? I do not know what they levy. They levy 3d. a Horse, and you levy 4fd. ? No ; it was considered on a former Day that there were Two Fourpenny Tolls on our Road ; we take the Watering Toll only at our first Gate. You take a Fourpenny Toll at your first Gate from the 1st of April to the 1st of October ; the Metropolitan Turnpike Trust takes only 3d. ? But they may not go the same Distance j it depends upon that. My own Opinion is, that if Country Turnpike Trusts were regulated as they ought to be, the Toll on those Trusts should be the same all over the Kingdom, and every Person might know how often he was to pay, and what he was to pay. Would that not vary with the Cost of Materials and the Expence of bringing them ? I think it should not vary for this Reason, that at certain Distances a new Toll may be fairly demanded of the Traveller, whatever the ordinary Cost of the Road may be. If on one Part of the Road such a Toll produced more than sufficient for the ordinary Repairs of that Trust, it would form a Fund to pay for those Roads where there was a greater Expence. Extraordinary Expences upon Roads ought to be paid from more general or from County Funds. ^ Then there must be a General Central Board from which all Payments must emanate ? I conceive not. By dividing the Trusts in the County into Main Roads and Branch Roads there would be no Difficulty about it,^ as it strikes me. I except all Roads in the Vicinity of the Metropolis. Do you ever permit any Persons to compound with the Trustees to pay a Sum of Money for themselves and their Servants to pass through the Gates without the Payment of the Toll? Never ; we found that some of our Weighing Collectors had made Agree- ments with certain Farmers on the Road, and they were immediately dismissed • we take no Overweight Tolls now ; we conceive that no Weight will do us any Harm ; we think that a broad Wheel would do more Harm than a narrow one coming on our well-made Road. This I understand to be the Opinion of the Surveyor. Do you think an Act might be framed that would prevent those Abuses which exist in the present System ? Far better than by Local Acts. There will be always some Local Acts wanted under particular Circumstances. Would you propose any additional Control ? Yes ; I think it will be very desirable if there was an Officer appointed that should have the Examination of the Turnpike Road Accounts when trans raitted ; that as Duplicate Returns should be made either to the Secretarv of State s Office or the Postmaster General, some Person should have the Arrangement of those, and be able to intimate where they found any Trust was ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 25 was paying higher for Labour or more for Materials than other Trusts, that Mr.J.L.Bickneii. such Trust might get Labour or Materials cheaper. The Government thus would know what was the State of all the Accounts of all the Roads in the Kingdom* Do you think the Trustees would pay Attention to the Examiner ? I am sure, from all I have seen of Trustees, they are most anxious to do their Duty. I never saw more anxious Men than our Trustees to save a Pound on the Road, and to have every thing done in the best and cheapest Manner. Do you think that a Board of General Superintendence would be desirable, so as to procure something like a general System throughout the Kingdom ? I think a general Act would procure that System. I would give such an Examiner as I have adverted to the Power of attending every Meeting of Trustees, if Government required it, so that he might have access to the Accounts or Proceedings at any Time. You would have the Government nominate an Officer as a Controller of the Accounts ? To classify the Accounts transmitted, and to see at what Price Labour was procured, and what the Materials cost; he would not control the Trusts, but give Information to the Government upon the Subject when required. Are the Bridges connected with the Trusts ? The Three hundred Feet at each End of the Bridges will be, by the new Highway Bill now in the House of Commons, thrown upon the Trustees, but the Counties will still have the Expence of the Bridges. In alluding to particular Trusts in the former Part of your Evidence, you merely wished to show how the present System worked, and it was not your Intention to make any Animadversion upon any Individual engaged in the Management of those Trusts ? Precisely so. The only one, besides the New Cross Trust, of which I have any personal Knowledge, is the Surrey and Sussex, which I believe to be managed with the greatest Attention, though the Results of its funds, from Circumstances, are not those which might be wished. From the Want of a good General Turnpike Act ? Just so. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. MICHAEL IRISH is called in, and examined as follows : Mr.M. Irish. You have been employed in arranging the Turnpike Road Returns ? I have. The Abstract before the Committee has been printed under your Super- intendence ? It has. Upon what Principle have you proceeded in forming this printed Abstract ? From the printed Returns that were sent in from the Clerks of the Peace and Clerks of the Roads. Are those Returns uniform as to the Period to which they extend ? Certainly not. Some of them begin at one Period of the Year and some at another ? Yes. Do they all comprise the Period of a Year ? Some of them, I believe, extend into the ensuing Year. Do they generally comprise the Period of a Year ? Nearly the whole ; there are some few Exceptions. Does the Abstract therefore present, with few Exceptions, a correct View of the Expenditure for One Year of all the Trusts comprised in it ? The whole of them j they comprise a Period each of One Year. (24.) D Some 26 MINOTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mt. M. Irish. Some for one Year and some for another ? Yes, just so. It is not, therefore, quite correct to say at the Head of the Account that it is for the Year ending Michaelmas 1829 ? No ; it was impossible to make such an Account. You had no Materials from which an Abstract of an Account ending it any particular Time of a Year could be formed? No ; the whole were from the Returns, which were made according to the Order of the House. Upon what Principle have you made out the Account of Income, as stated in this Abstract ? • .r. „ -j r- t. • u The Principle of Income was derived from the Tolls paid from Parish Compositions, from Pines paid, and from incidental Causes paid ; the whole of these were expressed in the Returns under those several Heads. The next was the Tolls and Arrears of Tolls due for that Year, but unpaid at the Time the Account was made up ; the same for Parish Composition ; that comprised the whole of the Income for the Year. Under Column 7, do you consider that the whole of the Revenue derived upon the Turnpike Road is brought into the Account ? Certainly not. What is not brought into Charge ? In various Cases the Statute Duty, also expressly stated as performed, is not brought into Charge at all ; in other Places the Parishes perform the whole of the Repairs upon the Road ; in other Cases the Parishes perform a Part, for which no Charge is brought into the Account at all. Some Part was performed by Contract at so much a Year, the Parishes taking it upon their own Respon- sibility. In others, again, the Parishes repaired the Roads by the surplus Labourers; it is so stated. That, I believe, comprises the whole. Have you discovered any sure or fixed Principle on which the Statute Duty is levied ? There is none I can find ; they appear to be very irregular. In some Instances they form a great Proportion, and a less Proportion in other Places. It appears as if they were on no Principle whatever. For instance, there may be Six Miles of Road charged 80/., and in other Instances not more than Three Miles 80/. I could collect no Principle on which the Statute Duty was levied. What do you consider the Value of all Parochial Duties performed on the Turnpike Road ? That must be merely Matter of Opinion ; but I should say, taking the Pro- portion of it to other Charges, at least 100,000/. in round Numbers. The End of the Index explains that. State the Manner in which you proceeded in making out the Account of Expenditure ? Immediately after the Debts, in the next Column, follows the Interest paid, which forms the first Item of Expenditure ; the next Column the Manual Labour, where it is so directly expressed ; the Second Team Labour, Improve- ments, Materials, and Contracts. Now a certain Portion of those is composed of Manual Labour, but it is so intermixed that it is impossible from the Returns to make out a correct Account ; therefore they were all comprised under that Head. The next Item is Land purchased, or Damages paid for in getting Materials ; this also comprises the Charge for Improvements where it does not exceed 100/. ; the Damages are various, varying from 3d. a Yard to I5d. ; I may say 15d., on a fair Calculation, is about 600/. per Acre on the Land. The Accounts do not state invariably what was the Price paid per Yard • but, on the contrary, they mention generally, paid so much for Damages to Land. The Fifth Column comprises Repairs to Toll Houses, Gates, Bridges, and various Charges brought by Bricklayers, Carpenters, and Smiths ; Fencino- IS also included. The next Charge is Salaries to Clerks, Surveyors, Law Bills', Printing, Advertising, Stationery, and incidental Charges. When I made out this Account, I was desirous to put these under their various Heads ; but they ^ were ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 27 were so intermixed with each other it was impossible, and I was obliged to put Mr. M. Irish. them under One Head ; they form a very serious Item of Charge. The next Column comprises part Payments of the Debts or Accounts of former Years, &c., as deducted from the Accounts delivered to the Clerk of the Peace. In forming the Nett Expenditure, this Item comprises all the Payments which do not belong to the Account of that Year ; they are carefully selected ; such as the Payment of Treasurers Balances ; the former Year's Improvements, where they exceeded 100/. ; Buildings, where they exceeded 100/. ; the Items not to be considered as belonging to the current Expenditure of the Year. All those various Items in those Seven Columns added together make the Gross Expen- diture. In order to procure the Nett Expenditure, of course those extraneous Payments in the Seventh Column are deducted from the Gross ; and in case the Interest is not brought into Charge in the First Column, that is added, being of course a current Expenditure, and that makes the Nett Expenditure. State the Manner in which you have proceeded to bring the Interest into Charge in making out that Account ? It is brought into Charge as I have stated before, or it is brought into Account in the Column following the Gross Expenditure, and added to the deducted Sum, which of course makes the Nett. Why, is it sometimes brought in in one way and sometimes in another? Because it is omitted altogether in a great many Returns, so that I could not state a full current Expenditure, for the Interest on Expenditure was not brought into Charge j therefore, to procure a correct Nett Expenditure, that is adde^. From whence do you get that ? There is an Omission in the Returns, and therefore it is supplied by calcu- lating the Interest on Mortgage Debt. When you have been obliged to make Calculation, at what Rate of Interest have you calculated ? I have invariably calculated the Interest on Mortgage Debt, and that only, at Five per Cent., being the general Charge that is made. What appears to be the Amount paid for Improvements, each of which amount to more than 100/., entered in the Seventh Column ? For Improvements, Manual Labour, Team Labour, and Materials, 44'5528/. Is. 9d.; for the Purchase of Land where those Improvements took place, 7,531/. l(5s. 2d. Do the Returns furnish you with any Means of averaging the .Charges attendant on procuring Acts of Parliament ? None, but I have made an Average of those which have been returned ; to the Amount of about 120 or thereabout have been returned. What is the Average Cost, taken from that Calculation ? I think it exceeds 400/. ; that is exclusive of the Fees paid by the Treasury for the Renewal of Acts, and those I know nothing about. In taking the Balance between the Income and Expenditure, you have taken of course only the Nett Expenditure ? I have taken the Nett Expenditure ; if I had taken the Gross, it would have amounted to a considerably larger Sum. - Have you gone through the Account so as to be able to state the Total Amount of Balance in the Treasurers Hands ? The Balances in the Treasurers Hands amount to 361,836/. The Witness is directed to withdraw. .Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Friday next. One o'Clock. (24.) D2 C 29 ) Die Veneris, 26° ^pnlis 1833. The Duke of RICHMOND in the Chair. Mr. JOHN LAURENS BICKNELL is called in, and further examined Evidence on as follows : Turnpike Road Trusts. The Committee understand you wash to make some Addition to the Evidence Mr. J. L. Bickneii you gave on a former Occasion ? Yes ; at the last Examination I was not aware that the Metropolis Turnpike Road Trust took Id. for a Carriage with One Horse less than the New Cross Trust. I Jiave since looked at the Return of the Metropolis Roads Trust for 1829, and I find that Trust has an Income of 82,821/. per Annum ; that of this, a Part, namely 814Z. IJs., is from Watching and Lighting Rates, and 1,11-0/. Js. is from Rents of Estates, making the Sum of 1,955/. 45. The New Cross Trust has no such Resources whereby to lighten their Tolls ; still the Tolls of the New Cross Trust appear by the Abstract to be altogether propprtionably lower than the Metropolis Roads Trusts. The Metropolis Trust has only 125 Miles, 2 Furlongs, and 9 Perches of Road, and an Income of 82,821/. per Annum, and a Debt of 100,000/. ; that appears by the Return of 1829- The New Cross Trust, to be in the same State as the Metropolis Roads, would have upon its Trust of Forty Miles 25,900/. per Annum Income, and 33,000/. of Debt; instead of which it had in 1829 only 16,651/. of Income per Annum, when the Improvement Toll was taken, and now has only 14,600/, Tolls, and owes no Debt whatever. Since the Year 1816 the New Cross Trust has expended in Improvements, beyond the general Repair, 22,443/. 7s. Srf., of which I have a Return here, if your Lordships desire it. Had the New Cross Trust an Improvement Toll at the same Time ? Yes ; it amounted altogether, before that ceased, to 16,000/. ; but they have done 22,000/. worth of Improvements beyond their ordinary Income. The Witness delivers in the Return, which is read, and is as follows : ExpENCE of Improvements made upon the New Cross Turnpike beyond the Expence of ordinary Repairs. 1817. The Improvement by lowering the Crown of Shooters Hill - Lowering Mason's Hill, Mount Nod, and Nettlebed Bottom ___--- 1820. Lowering the Top of Loampit Hill _ _ - 1821. Improvement at the Broadway, Deptford 1822. Widening Road at the Bricklayers Arms 1824. Widerang Entrance to the Village of Footscray 1826. Improvement of New Cross _ _ - - Improvement at Blackheath Hill and Lee N.B. This last Improvement was not completed until a Year ago. 1830. Draining Roads _ - - . - . Lee and Eltham Improvement _ - . - 1832-3. Digging Wells, and for further Extension of Watering - John Bicknell, 26th April 1835, ., Clerk to the New Cross Turnpike Trust. (24.) D S £ s. d. 2,145 18 9 894 17 7 150 14 150 227 10 50 15,567 14 5 187 6 e 1,506 1,600 0^ 22,443 7 3 30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. J. L.Bickneli. The Witness delivers in a Statement of the Duties of the Clerk of the New Cross Trust, with his Salary, which is read, as follows : New Cross Trust. The Clerk. The Clerk is appointed by the Voices of a General Meeting especially called by Adver- tisement and Notice, The present Clerk has held the Situation for Nineteen Years, having first been appointed as Assistant to the late Clerk, who was too old and infirm to attend the Meetings ; and having afterwards been elected into the Office of Clerk and Solicitor to the New Cross Trust. The Salary of 300/. per Annum was settled, after a very minute Examination into the Duties of the Office, by a Committee especially appointed by the General Meeting for tkat Purpose. His Duties are as follows : — Attending himself and Clerk at the Annual Meeting, and all Monthly and Committee Meetings, and all Special General Meetings and Special Committee Meetings ; drawing and entering the Minutes of all General Meetings and Meetings of Committees. Attending Views and Surveys, drawing and copying Reports of Committees upon Matters referred to them ; giving Notices to every individual Member of Committee Meetings; drawing and Copies of Advertisements of General and Special General Meetings, and Notices thereof to post at all the Gates and Bars of the Trust; occa- sionally giving Notices to all the individual Members of the Trust of special Matters to be brought under Consideration ; writing numerous Letters in correspondence with Parties on Matters concerning the Trust and respecting Nuisances, Encroachments, &c. Frequent Attendances on the Surveyors and other Persons, and on the Chairman and other Members of the Trust; consulting and advising on various Business of the Trust. Arranging and keeping Accounts of all Debts due from the Trust ; arranging the Vouchers to the Trea- surer's Account, and making up and entering the same in fair Book Monthly, for the Examination of the Trust. Keeping Duplicate of the Treasurer's Account in the like Manner. Making out detailed and abstract Monthly Account under various Heads, and keeping the same entered up in a Book, under the Heads prescribed by the Act of Par- liament for the Monthly Examination, and certifying thereof by the Committee of Accounts. Making out Yearly Statement for the Clerks of the Peace for Kent and Surrey, after being certified by the Annual General Meeting of the whole Income and Expenditure of the Trust in detail. Writing to the Surveyors of the various Parishes upon the Subject of their Statute Duty or Payment of Compositions in lieu thereof. Copy Annual Accounts for Printer, and sending Print thereof to the Trustees, and writing therewith, and to Clerks of the Peace with same. Making up all Accounts and Returns occasionally required by Parliament, and by Meetings of the Trustees. Keeping up Book of all Annual Accounts; selecting and keeping separate Account of Watering Expences ; frequent Correspondence between the Trust and Clerk of the Peace and County Surveyor, respecting Repair of Bridges, and Roads over Bridges. Perusing and considering various Acts of Parliament upon the various Business of the Trust ; perusing Votes daily during the Sitting of Parlia- ment, to report any Bill which may appear to affect the Trust, and perusing the Bills themselves, to report upon them, if Occasion be. Preparing and keeping up Book of Oaths of Qualification, keeping up Mortgage Books, and making out and keeping up a complete Index of the Minutes of the Trust. Constant Care of Books, Papers, and Accounts and considerable Office Room found for their Deposit. Up to the Year 1814 the Salary was 100/. per Annum, in addition to his Charges for writing Letters, preparing Advertisements, Notices, Particulars, Warrants, &c. From that Time the Salary has been 300/. per Annum, including every thing but Law Expences and Disbursements. 22d April 1833. j^^,^ Bicknell. The Witness also delivers in the proposed New Form of Annual Statement for the Schedule of the General Turnpike Act. (Vide Appendix.') The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. M. Irish . Mr. MICHAEL IRISH is called in, and further examined as follows : Will you turn to Page I76 of the Abstract of Returns, the Dunham and Darlton Road ; what is the Debt on that Road ? ^383 65. \ld. What was the Expence incurred for Manual Labour there ? .^49 lis. 3d. How ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 31 How much for Team Labour ? £39 7s. 5d. How much was paid for Salaries ? £24>2. 4>s. lid. What was the Balance in the Treasurer's Hands ? ^196 3s. Id. Will you turn to Page 183, and look at Aynho Division of Burford, Chipping Norton, Banbury, &c. ; does it appear by that Return that any Payment has been made for eating and drinking in former Years ? Yes; 14/. 11 5. 56?. And 20/. to Mr. Franklin? Yes. Do you know who Mr. Franklin is ? No ; that is exactly as it stands in the Return. Turn to Page 203, and state to the Committee what is the Debt upon the Bath Road, as per Return? The Debt was 27,220/. What was the Amount in the Treasurer's Hands ? ^4,539. What was the Expenditure above the Income ? £1,14,3 3s. 3d. Turn to Page 267, the Marlborough and Froxfield Road, and detail to the Committee what was the Expence of Manual Labour on that Trust ? ^416 Is. 8d. ■ What was the Team Labour, Improvements^ Materials, and Contract ? ^87 Is. 8d. What was the^ Salary to Clerks, Surveyors, &c.? ^444 17s. 9d. Do you know whetlier there was a Renewal of the Act in that Year ? No, I think not ; but I know they returned more Acts of Parliament for that Trust than almost any otheV. If there had been a Renewal of the Act in that Year, it would have been in the Seventh Column. . Turn to Page 273, the Kidderminster Road ; what was the Expenditure above the Income on that Trust ? ^2,879 5s. 2d. Refer to Page 292, the Wakefield and Halifax Road, Halifax District j what was the Sum in the Treasurer's Hands there ? v ^5,195 19*. 8d. What was the Debt, as per Return from the Clerk of the Peace ? £1 1,220. Can you give any Reason why there was so large a Balance at that Time in the Treasurer's Hands ? The Returns make no mention except of the Fact. At what Period of the Year is the Return taken ? I cannot state that without referring to the Return ; but I suppose the Year 1829, and ending 1830. Do you suppose it probable that the Balance was kept in the Treasurer's Hands with a view to the Payment of Interest due to Creditors ? No ; the Interest, 290/. 105. 9d., was paid for the same Trust. What was the surplus Income above the Expenditure in that Trust ? £4>5 19s. 6d. Are you aware of any particular Circumstances that the Committee's Attention should be drawn to ? There are some particular Circumstances that I think it my Duty to point out. The First is Bath, in Page 204, the Amount of Salaries. It stands (24.) D4 in Mr. M. Irish. ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 33 I find there were 183 Trusts had Two Acts of Parliament, Thirteen Trusts Mr.M.lrkh. that had Three Acts of Parliament ; and there were Two Trusts, one of them in particular, Marlborough and Froxfield, had Six, Acts of Parliament within that Time ; the other is one of the Welsh Counties, and I am rather appre- hensive that it might perhaps comprise some Consolidation of Trusts, therefore I have not taken that into the Account. State the Number of Trusts where the Distance does not exceed Ten Miles ? There are 342 Trusts, that the whole Distance is 2,333 Miles ; that on the Average is a Trifle over Seven Miles, but not one of them exceeding Ten Miles. State the Number of Trusts where the Treasurers Balances exceed 1,000/. ? There are Sixty-five Treasurers, attached to Sixty-five Trusts, who hold 150,223/. in their Hands ; each holds a Balance exceeding 1,000/. Can you state any Reason why some of the Treasurers hold large Balances, although the respective Debts are small in amount ? I expect the only Answer that can be given is, that they receive in general no Salary, and consequently that they are making use of the Money to pay them for their Trouble. That is only Matter of Opinion ? Only Matter of Opinion. State the Name of the Trust where the largest Sum was paid under the Hea,d of Salaries ? That is in the Account of Bath, already referred to. State the Name of the Trust where the largest Sum has' been advanced on the smallest Amount of Toll ? That is the Case of Sheffield and Glossop. State the Number of Trusts where the Expenditure exceeds the Income more than 1,000/.? There are 39 Trusts of that Description, and the Total of their Expenditure above Income is 80,869/. What is the Proportion of Money expended on Manual and Team Labour, including Improvements, to the whole Expenditure ? Upon a careful Calculation, as nearly as I can compute, about 11/. out of 20/. ; 11/. for Manual Labour, Team Labour, and Improvements, and the Kesidue for other Expences, including the Interest of Money. State the Number of Trusts where there is more than Three Years Interest due upon the Mortgage Debt, with the Amount of such Debt, and the Interest due thereon ? There are 173 Trusts, the Mortgage Debt of which is 929,554/., the whole of the Interest due upon which is of more than Three Years standing, varying from Three Years to Sixty Years j more, some of it. The Interest due on the 929,554/. is 527,162/. Have you experienced any Difficulty in making out this Statement in con- sequence of Irregularities in registering the Accounts with the Clerk of the Peace ? Very considerable : the Trusts, many of them, when they were returned, perhaps to the Extent of Three Returns, were under Three different Designations and Clerks, so that I had to search to connect them together. That was one Difficulty. The next was, that a great many of the Returns had never been made to the Clerk of the Peace at all; and it was -by an Application to the Clerks of the Trust we got the Returns at all, the Clerk of the Peace being unable to return them. In consequence of his not having received them ? Yes. Is there not a Penalty in the General Turnpike Act on the Clerks of the Trusts who do not transmit their Returns ? A Penalty, I think, of 50/. for not returning them within Thirty Days after they have been audited. (24.) £ Do 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. M. Irish. Do you know any Instances where a larger Sum of Money has been paid for procuring Materials off" the Land than the Fee Simple of the Land would have come to ? Many Instances. Do you know of any Instances where the Surveyors send great Distances for Materials, when they might have procured them much nearer at hand ? I can speak to that from my own Knowledge. The last Contract I had was a Contract from Maresfield, an Improvement on Two Miles of Road there. On the Mailing and Witchcross Road we were obliged to cover the Surface of the Road with Flint, which cost us about ll5. 6d. or ll5. per Ton. We could have got, if we could have had leave to go upon the Ground, a Material of, I think, a superior Quality, but at any rate equally as good, that we could have put on for 6*. 6d. ; consequently we were obliged to calculate our Contract in that Proportion. I had also another Contract in the County, for taking up Flints ; that was but a small Portion, about Eighty Tons, but it is pretty nearly an annual Thing. I think, ray Contract, to the best of my Recollection, was 105. 3d. ; and there is a better Material within a Mile of the very Spot that could be put on for about 3s. 6d., but I could not get Consent to enter on the Land. With reference to Maresfield Road, what was the Nature of the Material you might have got near at hand. A hard Stone, just by Buxted and Mayfield ^ there is some of the best hard Stone in the County there, but it was on private Land. From whence were the Materials brought to Maresfield Road foi*merly ? Ashdown, halfway betweeh Uckfield and Forrest Row. How far is it ? About Two Miles. Do you conceive that Materials can be found in all Cases within as little Distance as that you have now mentioned in the Maresfield Case ? I can judge only from Sussex ; but Thirty or Forty Years ago there was no hard Stone used, or thought of being used, except at Cuckfield ; that was the first Place there was any used, and from increasing it every Year there has been some discovered, of which I have the Samples at Home, of almost the whole of the Eastern Part of Sussex, that will produce a hard Material of a sufficient Texture for the Roads within a Distance of Seven or Eight Miles at the out- side ; in many Instances nearer. Under proper Powers, you have no doubt of obtaining, through the whole of the East of Sussex, Materials within that limited Distance ? Upon the Average of Eight Miles, I have no doubt of it. How far do you conceive, on the Average, such Materials are now brought in the East of Sussex ? In many Instances a very long Distance, where Seabeach is resorted to ; in other Ins&ances, where Flints are used. What do you mean by a long Distance ? In manj"^ Instances Fourteen or Fifteen Miles. You think there are very many Instances of that Description ? I think there are a good many; but certainly they are decreasing. Confining your Observations to the East of Sussex, you have no doubt of diminishing the Cost of maintaining the Turnpike Roads by all tlie Difference which would arise from the short as compared with the more considerable Distance you have now mentioned ? No question at all ; there are but very few Places where we should not find the Materials at a moderate Distance, and equally good. Have you made any Calculation of the Saving that would accrue to the East of Sussex by a Management similar to that to which you have been alluding ? No, I have not, as regards the Eastern Part of Sussex. Have i ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 35 Have you made such a Calculation with reference to any i District whatever ? Mr. M. Irish. I have, with respect to Lewes District. — — What Distance does that comprise ? About 103 Miles. What Diameter is that District ? It comprises a sort of centrical Roads, branching from the Borough of Lewes ; the Extent and Number of Miles is altogether 103. Has it been in consequence of a Wish to favour particular Individuals, or upon an Objection on the Part of the Proprietors, that the Surveyors have gone such Distances in search of Materials? It is the Objection of the Proprietors. Was the Existerfce of a' hard Material in the Neighbourhood of the Mares- field Road known before the late Improvement on the Road ? Oh yes, it has been known a considerable Time, but the Proprietors objected. I believe there is a Negotiation at present going on on the Subject, but nothing final. On the whole, is it your Opinion that the Consolidation of Trusts would be of Service ? ' There cannot be a Doubt about that. Do you think it would be more economically managed in consequence? There is no doubt of that ; when a Surveyor is appointed at a Salary of 601. or 70/. or 8OL per Annum for a Trust of Seven or Eight Miles, he cannot afford to look after that Trust; he is paid, therefore, merely for riding over it once or twice in the course of the Year, and his Duty is given to one of the Labourers, who does the best he can for him. There ought to be One for 100 or 120 Miles, and his whole Attention ought to be devoted to it. Were you ever Surveyor of Roads ? Not for a public High Road ; for Parish Roads I have been Surveyor ; but my Knowledge has arisen from occasional Contracts, and making Calculations for others who have taken Contracts. In making your Calculation upon those Contracts, is not the Carriage and Team one of the principal Items in your Calculation ? It is where one of the principal Savings might be made. That Saving wOuld be by substituting Manual for Horse Labour ? Unquestionably. Therefore, by any general Regolation similar to that you have formerly alluded to a great Increase of the Manual Labour might be applied? I should say more than Double. With a proportionate Reduction of Horse Labour, and increased Economy ? Yes ; and the Regulation of the Salary of the Surveyor. I. have no Hesitation in saying that upon a very accurate View, and I think I have taken a great deal of Care in the Calculation — upon a fair System of Management — the Manual Labour, taking the Kingdom altogether, might be doubled, or Double the Sum might be applied in Manual Labour, if required. By improving the Nature of the Materials ? Yes, and various other Regulations and Improvements. You have made general Calculations upon that Subject ? I have. Have you those Calculations by you ? I have not at present. Would you object to delivering them to the Committee on any future Day ? Certainly not. If a considerable Reduction in the Expenditure upon Salaries and Team Labour, and Items of that sort, were made, do you think it would be prac- ticable to abolish Statute Duty upon the Turnpikes ? I have no Hesitation in saying that the Revenues are quite equal to do away with the Statute Duty. (24.) E 2 Are 36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. M. Irish. Are you aware, from the Opportunities you have had of communicating with Land Owners and Occupiers in the Country, whether they consider Statute Labour a very vexatious Enactment ? It is very vexatious, and also very expensive ; in some of our poor Parishes in Sussex they pay a great deal. I do not know any Instance in which it is performed by them ; they all pay in Money. Do they perform Statute Duty in some Counties ? They do. Do not the Occupiers consider this Duty to be very vexatious ? No doubt of it ; the Surveyor calls them out frequently at very inconvenient Seasons. In Summer Time the Farmer wants his Team, and in the Winter it does the Road a great deal of Mischief bringing on Materials. The Com- position falls very heavily on many Parishes. Under the Trust of New Cross, Kent, the Composition paid was 480/. In the Year 1829 the Revenues of that Trust, the Tolls alone, were 15,5551., and that I conceive was for only Eleven Months ; for I think there is an Omission in the Arrears of One Month, that ought to have been brought into the Account. The Salaries, and other Offices attached to that Trust, exceeded 900/., and the Surveyor is Surveyor also^ of Two or Three other Trusts. His Salary is still 300/. a Year. Are you aware that the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners have lent Money to several Trusts ? Apparently to a very large Amount ; but it is not stated in the Particulars of Debt. Will you read, from this Account of the Turnpike Trusts indebted to the Exchequer Bill Commissioners for 1829, some of the Cases ? It appears that the Trust of Gatton and Povey Cross borrowed 3,5001. on the 23d of September 1817, and 2,000/. the 2d of June 1818 ; they were to pay Five per Cent. Interest, and also a Sinking Fund of Ten per Cent. It appears that on the 1st of January 1830 there remained 5,5001. Principal due, and 3,158/. 25. Id. Interest due; Total unpaid on the 1st of January, 8,658/. Will you turn to the Marlborough and Coate ? The 24th of June 1820 the Amount lent 1,300/., at Five per Cent. ; the Interest was reduced afterwards to Four per Cent. Five per Cent, was to be the Sinking Fund annually till Date of Repayment. How much remains ? The Principal remaining is 845/. out of the 1,300/. ; and Interest due 85/. 3s. 10(/. ; the Debt due on the 1st of January 1830, 930/. 3s. lOd. Turn to the Spalding and Bourn ? The 12th of July 1824 they borrowed 3,000/., and were to pay Four per Cent. Interest, Five per Cent. Sinking Fund. Principal remaining unpaid on the 1st of January 1830, 2,688/. os. ^d. ; Interest due, 128/. 3s. ; Total remaining unpaid on the 1st of January 1830, 2,816/. 6s. '^d. Turn to the Blackburn and Preston ? It appears that on the 22d of September 1825 there was 10,000/. lent at Four per Cent. ; Sinking Fund, Five per Cent. There remained due on the 1st of January 1830, 8,087/. 13s. 5di Turn to the Macclesfield Road ? There appears to have been borrowed, on the 20th of June 1826, 7 500/. at Five per Cent. Interest, and Ten per Cent. Sinking Fund. There remained due on the 1st of January 1830, 6,929/. Turn to the Colne and Broughton Trust, in the Counties of Lancaster and York? On the 23d of October 1826 there was 2,500/. borrowed, at Five per Cent. ' Interest, Five per Cent. Sinking Fund ; and there appears to have been due on the 1st of January 1830, 2,634/. 19s. Turn to the Thornton and Bradford Road ? It appears that on the 1st of December 1826, 6,000/. was lent at Five per Cent. Interest, Five per Cent. Sinking Fund ; there remained due on the 1st of January 1830, Principal and Interest, 6,924/. 13s. M. ^ Turn ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 37 Turn to the Kirkstall and Ilkley District of Leeds and Halifax ? Mr. M. Irish. ^9,000 was lent, on the 14th of May 1827, at Five per Cent. Interest, and ■ Five per Cent. Sinking Fund ; and it appears on the 1st of January 1830 there remained, for Principal and Interest, 10,184^. due. Refer to the Shepley Road, in the same County ? On the 5th of September 1827, 3,500/. was borrowed, Five per Cent. Interest, and Six per Cent. Sinking Fund ; and there appears now to be due 3,129/. 7*. 3d. The Eccleshill and Bradford Road ? On the 1st of December 1826, 3,000/. was borrowed. Five per Cent. Interest, and Five per Cent. Sinking Fund j on the 1st of January 1830, 3,462/. 6s. Id. was due. Turn to the Leeds and Whitehall Road ? ^5,000 was borrowed on the 22d of April 1829, at Five per Cent. Interest, and Six per Cent. Sinking Fund ; and on the 1st of January 1830 there was due 5,173/. 5s. 9d. What is the Amount of the Sum in England and W^ales which appears to have been lent, and to have been repaid ? It appears, by the Return of England and Wales, that the Amount lent was 290,750/. ; that of that Sura there was Principal repaid up to the Year 1829, 16,168/. Il5. 8c?. ; Interest paid up to the Year 1829, 6,839/. 8s. 8d. ; Total Pay- ments to 1829, 23,008/. 05. 4c?, ; Principal remaining unpaid, 208,673/. I85. Ic?. j Interest ■ due, 11,867/. 8*. 6d.; Total unpaid on the 1st of January 1830, 220,541/. 6s. 7d. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Monday next. One o'Clock, E3 ( 39 ) Die Lunce, W" Aprilis 1833. The Duke of RICHMOND in the Chair. Mr. WILLIAM BAKER is called in, and examined as follows: Evidence on Turnpike Road Are you Clerk to the Trustees of the Commercial Road in the County of Trusts. Middlesex ? ^^_ weaker. I am. How long have you held that Situation ? I have been engaged intimately with the Concerns of the Undertaking from the earliest Period. Thirty Years ago my Father was Clerk ; I became Clerk on his Death in 1823. What is the Distance of the Road under the Management of the Com- mercial Road Trust ? The Commercial Road is about Two Miles. There are othei: Roads under the same Trust. Have the goodness to enumerate them ? The East India Dock Road is the next. What Distance ? One Mile. What are the others ? The Barking Road. There is another Road I am not Clerk to under the same Act of Parliament. There are Five distinct Branches of Road, or Road and Branches. The first is the Commercial Road; the next is the East India Dock, Road ; then the Barking Road, which is about Four Miles Seven Eighths 5 then there is the Cannon Street Road, which runs parallel with the Com- mercial Road, partly parallel with the Commercial Road ; and from the Cannon Street Road to the Mile End Road. What Distance ? I do not exactly know. Mr. Unwin is Clerk to that Road. It was the original Rodd before the Commercial Road was formed ; and his Father having been Clerk to that Trust, it was kept distinct, though it was under the same Act of Parliament, which is a very copious Act. The Fifth is the Mile End and Shadwell Branch. When did the Act pass ? In 1828, the last Act. Were the Roads that you have enumerated consolidated by that Act of Parliament ? They were. But you retain Two Clerks ? There are Two Clerks. Are the Trustees of one Road the Trustees for the whole ? The Trustees are the same for the whole. When you make a Return to the Clerk of the Peace according io the Provisions of the General Turnpike Act^ do you make that Return as of the Commercial Road, or do you divide them into the Branches ? I divide them into Branches. I hold in my Hand now the Return I have made ; the other is made by- 'Mr. Unwin the Clerk.' (24.) E 4 In 40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. IV. Baker. In poitit of fact, the Branch Roads which are now consolidated are under different Management as far as the Clerk is concerned ? As far as he is concerned ; that is all. But do you not make separate Returns to the Clerk of the Peace ? Yes ; there is the same Accountant, but the Accounts are kept distinct by a Gentleman who has the Management of the whole. The official Person, the Clerk, attends the Boards ; the Accounts are managed by the Accountant. If your Lordships wish to have an Examination of the Accounts you should have the Accountant before you. Are you aware that the Returns from which the Abstract was made were procured from the Clerks of the Peace, who transmitted Copies of the Returns made by the different Clerks of each Trust to them ? These are the Returns I hold in my Hand ; the Annual Returns under our Act of Parliament. But are they in different Branches ? Yes ; because the Accounts are distinct and different, and are ordered to be kept so by the Act. They are, in point of fact, separate Trusts under the Management of One Set of Trustees ? Yes. I will give you a little History. The Cannon Street Road was made before the Commercial Road; it was seen that the Cannon Street Road would be almost annihilated ; the Trustees of the Commercial Road therefore bought it up J it was transferred to them by the Act of 1802 (42 Geo. 3. Cap. 101.) ; they have been since discharging the Debt, and have done so within 1,500/. The other Roads were carved out of the Commercial Road ; first, the East India Dock Road. There is also the King David Lane Branch, that is about Half a Mile, that has never been occupied by the Trustees. There is a small Branch that goes from the Horse Ferry Road, but it is not above a few Hundred Yards long. Can you furnish the Committee with a Statement of the Income, Expenditure, and Balance in the Treasurer's Hands of the whole of those Roads? Yes ; I happen to have them in my Hand ; but these are the Originals from which the Documents were sent in to the Clerk of the Peace. I cannot part with these, but if the Committee wish to have Copies of them I could furnish them hereafter. You stated "they bought up"; what do you mean by bought up ? The Cannon Street Road was bought up by the Commercial Road Proprietors. The Road was transferred to the Commercial Road. The previous Creditors on that Road saw, when the Commercial Road came into operation, it would be of so much more general Resort, it would annihilate their Debt. The Trustees of the Commercial Road therefore took it on them ; they were to pay off the Debt existing at that Time ; it has been an existing Debt diminished by the Receipt of the Toll from Time to Time. Was it a private Speculation ? Yes; the Commercial Road. The Road has cost 65,000/. a Mile; the Profits, if any, being divisible to the Extent of Ten per Cent. It is quite an Anomaly in the Turnpike Law. Do the Persons who lent the Money receive Ten per Cent, every Year ? No, not above Five per Cent. ; it has been as high as 6/., but it has not exceeded more than Five per Cent, on an Average ; it is at present reduced to Five per Cent, in consequence of the Reduction of Trade in the Docks. Can you tell the Committee in the Year 1829 what was the Amount of vour Debt? ^ j^l00,000 is the standing Debt of the Commercial Road, and 30,000/. for the new Stone-way. Are all these Roads private Speculations ? The whole of them, as far as the Advance of Capital on an uncertain Return of Interest. The Money was advanced in Shares, and applied for making the Roads ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 41 Road and Purchases chiefly. The original Cost was 50,000/. a Mile. We have Mr. w. Baker. laid out in the last Two or Three Years, since the passing of 9 Geo. 4., 15,000/. a Mile in the Commercial Road in making a Stone-way, including Expences of the Act and incidental Charges. What do you mean by private Speculation ? It is so far Speculation that a different Rate of Interest is created by Act of Parliament than on ordinary Turnpike Roads. The Money is raised by Shares. It in some degree partakes of the Nature of a Proprietary Measure, though the Term is Twenty-one Years, as in other Turnpike Roads. Persons have advanced Money on the Security of the Tolls, as on the other Roads ? Yes ; the only Difference is, they are entitled to a larger Rate of Interest. According to your Statement, Four Miles Seven Eighths Barking Road belong to your Trust ; what is the Amount of Debt your Trust is liable to for that Four Miles Seven Eighths ? It is already in the Returns ; I think 53,338/. is the present Statement. Turn to Page 144 of the Abstract. Will you explain to the Committee, — under the Head of Income from incidental Causes on the Commercial Road, there appears a Sum of 2,l'2Jl. 4s. 6d. ; from what Cause did that Income arise ? It includes Interest lent to Cannon Street Trust, the East India Dock Road, and 1,857/. 13s. 6d. Watching and Lighting Rates ; there is a Reference to that in a Note at the Bottom. Though you are One Trust, it appears that by the Note (6.) it includes 1,181/. 17s. 6d. New Four per Cents, 1,4€5/. 4rf. lent the East India Dock Road, and 2,050/. lent to Trustees of the Cannon Street Road, and 2,632/. 9*. lid. Compensations repayable, and 3531. I8s.4 _ - Bath (including Balance of 700/.) Wadhurst and West Farleigh Tonbridge and Maresfield Horsham and Guildford Tonbridge and Igtham Maidstone and Tonbridge Stokerhead _ _ . Mailing and Strood Wrotham and Maidstone New Cross - _ _ - Ramsgate and Margate Brand Bridges _ - - Faversham and Hythe Wendover and Buckingham HocklifFe and Aylesbury Newmarket Heath - - . Huxton and Dunsbridge Redcross - - - - Redhill . . Hockliffe and Stoney. Stratford Brampton and Longtown Whitehaven _ - . Carlisle and Eamont Bridge Carlisle and Brampton Cockermouth and Maryport Cockermouth and Carlisle - Cockermouth and Workington Bodmin - - Truro _ _ _ _ Chester and Northop Thornsett _ - _ - Edensorand Ashford Tupton and Ashover - . - Ideridgehay and- DuflSeld Chesterfield and Worksop Derby and London - _ _ Cromford Bridge and Langley Mills - Wirksworth and HuUand House Point Templenormanton and Tibshelf Ashborne and Belper - . . Derby and Hurdlow House Alfreton and Higham - . . Chapel-en-le- Frith and Enterclough Bridge Nottingham and Derby Sunderland and Dui-ham Berwick and North Durham Durham and Shotley - . - Eggleston Coal Road Vale of Blackmoor _ _ . Wareham - - - Blandford and Wimborne Bridport, Second District Blandfwd and Dorchester Dorchester and Wool _ - _ CHARGE. 412 1,029 581 402 411 290 517 449 2,300 286 159 193 166 189 179 597 435 284 583 198 341 239 219 120 456 166 285 228 249 365 324 447 969 643 159 408 367 502 729 288 498 196 270 469 171 98 498 218 545 244 440 954 475 317 264 233 314 431 150 496 339 182 s. 14 15 6 13 1 19 18 14 16 7 19 7 18 10 8 19 15 15 14 d. 5 7 1 7 14 10 2 4 17 1 7 8 3 3 13 6 1 3 16 8 16 10 15 7 5 3 • 3 13 3 6 5 8 11 9 8 2 7 12 3 9 9 19 8 2 2 9 11 6 7 7 6 3 8 8 6 4 3 15 9 18 9 1 9 1 11 19 11 4 8 4 8 1 3 4 4 4 3 5 5 8 11 10 2 7 1 13 2 11 6 15 1 1 3 6 9 9 55,831 15 4 Average, 436/. 3s, each Act of Parliament; 128 Acts in the whole. It ON 'rURNPIK:E ROAD TRUSTS. ';"' '5^ -'^ It appears there have been 3,783 Acts of Parliament sinceJ Turnpike Roads Mr.M.imh. have been first formed, the greater Part or nearly the whole of which have been in the last Century, and no less a Sum than 2,000,000/. Sterling, or One- Quarter of the present Debt, has been expended in this' Way alone (the Parliamentary Fees having been paid by the Treasury only from 1826 to 1829, no Deduction has been made for so short a Period.) This immense Sum will cease to excite Astonishment upon a Perusal of the Returns, where it is shown that many Trusts have obtained Three Acts in the short Space of Ten Years, comprising the Reign of His late Majesty George the Fourth. The Interest (paid and unpaid) upon the Mortgage Debt of 6,578,815/., deducting some large Sums whereon no Interest was charged, averages from 4il. 12*. to U. \5s. per Cent. It is so intricate you cannot make an accurate Calcu- lation upon it, but it may be safely said to range between those Two Figures. Is that a fair Calculation, do you think, with respect to the whole of the Debt or the whole of the Trusts ? Taking the whole of the Debts, the one with the other, I consider that a fair Calculation ; there are very few Instances in which Five per Cent, is not charged. In your Calculation of the Interest upon the Debt, does it accrue chiefly from the small Trusts or the large Trusts ? The larger Trusts are, generally speaking, those where the greatest Accu- mulation of Debt is, but with respect to the Interest, it is where Five per Cent, is paid ; there are some few Instances where Money has been laid down at Three and a Half per Cent. ; in others there has been a sort of Compromise made ; because the Interest could not be brought forward at Four or Five per Cent., a sort of Compromise has been made, and it has stood at Two and a Half per Cent. ; but I do not consider that in any way conclusive, any longer than the Trust was in that bad State. Is the higher Rate of Interest paid where there is a larger Amount of Tolls, or where there is a larger Amount of Debt ? I think the larger Amount of Debt is universally Five per Cent. I consider if I was to explain the whole of the System before I proceed to the proposed Plan, it would be clearing the Way very considerably ; and, with the Permission of the Committee, I will do so. The Balances in the Hands of Treasurers are immense ; and frequently Losses have been sustained in conse- quence of the Appointment of Persons from whom no Security was exacted. The Arrears of Tolls and Parish Composition for former Years (71^106/.) is v^ery large, compared with the Payment ; and from the Neglect of the Collectors these Arrears are frequently suffered to accumulate, until at last the Parishes on whom they are levied dispute the Account, when recourse is had to Law to enforce the Payment, or they are lost altogether. Under' the Head of Income the first Item is Tolls, and there is little Doubt a larger Sum is received from the Public than is stated under this Head. In some Cases the Expences attending tlie letting, as well as Charges for the Leases, are deducted, so that the Net Sum is far below what the Tolls were actually let for. There are also very often Reservations made on behalf of Persons paying and compounding for Coaches, &c., and the Tolls are not let freely for what they would let for if no Reservation was made. I have not taken Credit for that, but I have heard it as a Matter of Chance. The Expence also of collecting the Tolls, as well as the Profit derived by the Lessors, make: a very considerable Inroad on the Money actually raised. No certain Informa- tion could be procured of the Number of Toll Gates from which a Rental of not' more than 100/. per Annum was obtained, but it may be estimated at a Tenth at least of the whole ; therefore, taking the Maintenance of the Gate-keeper at 12^. per Week, and the Profit of the Lessor at 10/. per Annum, the Account ■would stand thus: Gross Value of the Tolls collected 141/. 4>s.; from which deduct the Expence of the Gate-keeper and the Profit of the Lessor (41/. 4*.),; and the actual Net Receipt would be 100/. With respect to Carriage for Materials for Road Repairs, I have no doubt that a great deal of the present Jlxpenditurp might be reduced, taking — which I consider to be the Case— that a very much higher Charge , is made than ought to be. Now in the Lewes District the Rate, of Carriage is lOd. for the first Mile, and 5d. for every ,. (24.) - .* H succeeding 58 MINUTES OF EVIDENC|: BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. M. Irish. Succeeding Mile ; that System has been carried into execution for some Time, ' and I find no Complaint of it, nor is there any Difficulty in procuring Carriage for that Sum ; that would make a very considerable Reduction in the Charge for Team Labour. With respect to the Amount of Fines, the Sum appears incredibly small when it is considered that the General Turnpike Act alone has upwards of Fifty Enactments for Fines for as many Offences, varying in Amount from 1/. to 100/. each, One Half of which, when levied, is directed to be paid towards the Expence of repairing the Roads. I have no Means of explaining this, but the Smallness of the Amount is apparent. On a former Examination I did explain the Difference between the Debts of 1821 and 1829, and I do not know that I have any thing further to say upon that Subject. Part of the Income arises from incidental Receipts; ho Explanation can be given upon this Head, as the Receipts arise from multifarious Causes. The whole Amount of Income raised in 1829 was 1,455^293/. The Expenditure consists, first, of Manual Labour, which is stated to be 303,173/., and Team Labour (and Improvements under 100/.), 578,237/. On examining the Notes connected with the Seventh Column, under the Head " Payments," &c. it will be found that the Sums expended upon Improvements above 100/. amount to 44,128/. If One Third of these last Two Sums is taken (which I consider a fair Calculation) and added to the first, the whole Manual Labour performed does not exceed 510,661/., a Sum so exceedingly small, compared with the gross Expenditure of 1,678,054/., that, if the Accounts did not prove the Fact, would appear impossible. A great Part even of this Sum is paid for Parish Labour, so that but a small Portion of this powerful and extensive System is made available for the Purpose of giving Employment to the free! Labourer. Land purchased, or Damages paid for in getting Materials, 5d,'263L By a further Reference to the Notes explanatory of the Seventh Column, it will appear that an additional Sum of 7,531/. was also expended in this Manner, making a Total of 63,794/., or upwards of 3/. for every Mile of Turnpike Road. When it is known that a great Part of the Materials were procured from Waste Land, the Sea Shore, &c. (for which no Damages are paid), as also that a Portion was bought by Contract, it certainly seems a very heavy Charge ; all Surprise, however, will cease when it is stated that as much as 1*. 3d. per Cubic Yard is frequently paid for Damage done to Land, which is at the Rate of 600/. per Acre, whilst the Freehold itself cannot be considered (on an Average) of more Value than 30/. per Acre. Repairs to Toll Houses, Gates, &c., 63,968/. The Notes connected with the Seventh Column will here also show a further Sum of 16,373/. expended upon Bridges, and in building new Toll Houses. Allowing this last Sum wholly for new Buildings, Fences, and Repairs of Carts and Tools, (repaired by some of the Trusts at their own Expence,) it makes the Co5t of Repairs for each Toll House and Gate exceed 12/. per Annum. The gross Expenditure was 1,678,054/. The Average Cost for Salaries, &c., including Acts of Parliament, is 10/. per Mile, and other Charges 74/. per Mile ; to which add the Value of the Repairs to Roads by Parishes, and the Statute Duty performed, (for which no Charge is made in the Accounts,) at 51. per Mile, and it will make the Average Expenditure for every Mile of Turnpike Road in the Kingdom 89/. I will now proceed to my proposed Plan, which I have prepared as well as my humble Abilities allowed me to do. This Plan I have made in conjunction with Mr. Barrett, the Surveyor of the Lewes District, whose Experience has been very great, and who is able to give the best Information upon the Subject. It is proposed to place all the Turnpike Roads in England and Wales under the Management of a separate Board. That is the Plan I propose to offer ; or in conjunction with some other Board, or some other Body in London, under the Control of the Government. The requisite Number of Persons for the Management, and Officers necessary to the proper Performance of the Duties, will of course form an after Consideration ; but in making out an Estimate of the Expences attendant upon this Plan it is presumed that the Sum of 24,650/. will be adequate to the Purpose ; the Turnpike Roads to be divided' into Thirty.four Districts, each to comprise 6OO Miles of Road, and to have a Clerk and Assistant, as also Five Surveyors and Two Foremen, for the Purpose of instructing the Road-makers and Excavators ; the whole to be under the Control and Management of the London Board at the following Salaries : 12 Country ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 59 CouifTRY Districts. Mr.M.Irhh. Each of the Thirty-four Districts to be superintended, under the Orders of the London — — — Board, by the lindef-mentioned Officers, at the following Salaries : 1 Accountant, each - - _ . ^400 per Annum - ^13,600 Total. 1 Clerk, each - - - - - 100 — - 3,400 5 Surveyors (Total 170), each - - 200 — - 34,000 2 Foremen to Road-makers and Excavators! „^ ^ ,„„ ' ^(Total 68), each - - - .) ^^ — " ^>^^^ Offices, Rent and Taxes (Total 34), each - 50 — - 1,700 Coals and Candles for ditto - - 20 — - 680 Stationery, Printing, and Advertising - 20 — - 680 ^€^865 per Annum - .^59,160 Total. London Board (Annual Expenditure) - - j^24,650 Country Districts (ditto) - - - 59,160 Total - ^"83,810 But I should have observed one thing of the London Board, that there are to be the Inspectors of the Turnpike Roads, which I consider equivalent, to General Surveyors of the present Day, to look over the Roads twice in the Year. It is proposed to place the Labourers required to execute the Work, as well as the Team and other Labour to be performed, under the Manage- ment of the Surveyors, acting upon the Orders and from the London Board. The separate Duties of these several Officers will be fully explained hereafter. To enable the Government to carry this Plan into effect, it will be necessary to empower them to, issue Bonds or Debentures equal to the Amount required for the Purpose of paying off the Mortgage and Floating Debt, a Part of the Interest due, and such Balances as may be owing to Treasurers, together with any other Sums that may be considered essential, the Amount of which will be hereafter stated. These Bonds or Debentures, having the Security of the Income arising from the Turnpikes as well as that of the Government, the Interest being proposed to be paid quarterly, may be issued, it is presumed, at 2s. Wages per Week, and will be required to live in one of the Sta- tion Houses, which, with a Quarter of an Acre of Garden Ground, will be ^^ pro- ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. ^ 61 provided for him without Rent, he keeping the same in a good State of Repair; Mt M Irish paying also for any wilful Dilapidations. He will also be required to provide for — ' hisGarden 500 Quicksets every Year, of the Growth of Three Years,: if required by the Surveyor for the Use of the Road. In case of Accident or Outrage upon the Road he will be required to give all reasonable Assistance. All Tools he may want he will have to provide himself with at his own Expence, and keep them in repair. The Men who are to assist the constantly-employed Men are to obey their Orders, except during the Presence of the Surveyor. The whole of the Men employed by the Week in digging or breaking Materials will either receive 12s. per Week Wages, or their Work will be put out to them by the Cubic. Yard, so that they will be enabled to earn that Sum per Week for Twelve Weeks, between the First Day of November and the First Day of April. The whole of the Persons employed will be sworn in as Special Con- stables, and in the same Manner, but shall not be called out upon Duty in a Body by any other Authority than a Warrant from the Privy Council, Lord Lieutenant, or Sheriff of the County, and in that Case shall act under the Orders and in the Presence of such Civil Magistrate or Magistrates as shall be named in the Warrant ; excepting any sudden Riot may break out, which the ordinary Civil Power are unable to suppress ; in that Case a written Order, signed by Two Magistrates, to the Surveyor of the District, shall be a sufficient Authority for him to collect such of his Men as the Urgency of the Case may require ; and he, with his Men, shall assist such Magistrates and the Civil Power in restoring Tranquillity; but neither Sur^ veyor or Men shall act except in the Presence and by the Orders of such Magistrates. •' , The present Rate of Tolls, Fines, and the other Sources of Revenue are to continue at the same Rate and Amount as now paid, excepting the Parish Composition, which, it is presumed, a better Management of the Turnpike Roads will render unnecessary to call for again. The Toll Gates are to be let by Tender, either separate, or in such Lots as may be deemed advisable. Notice of such Letting being given in the public News- papers, as well as by a printed Notice put up at the Gate or Gates to be let ; this to commence and terminate on the First of January in every Year. All Persons hiring a Gate or Gates to pay Six Weeks Rent in advance, and enter into an Agreement, with Two sufficient Securities, for the future Payment of Rent every Six Weeks, such Payment to be made to such Persons, as will be duly authorized. In order that the Public may have a Check against any Maladministration of the Funds, the Repair of the Roads, or other Matters connected with it, a Court, shall be holden in every County, which it is suggested, shall assemble at the Place where the Summer Assizes are holden. The Court to be composed of all such Persons as have served in the preceding Year on the Grand Jury, and Magistrates of the County ; but the Attendance of every Person to be voluntary ; and before such Court I consider that all Business connected with the Turnpike Trusts ought to be transacted. Do you mean by that last Regulation that those Persons shall have the Management of the Road who were Members of the preceding Grand Jury, arid that nobody else shall interfere in that Management ? I mean all Magistrates of the County as well. And the Persons upon the preceding Grand Jury? Yes. Supposing Persons had been upon the Grand Jury in the Spring, and not upoh the Grand Jury in the Summer, if they were not Magistrates, should they discontinue having any Share in the Management because they were not upon the Summer Grand Jury? . It is the Grand Jurymen who have attended at any Time during the Year who I mean are to attend. I consider it would be a great Benefit to the Country at large if they were to have a Voice in the Management, because in the Manner in which Trusts are got up it is material to consider whether they are useful to the Public or only to private Parties, and they would then be able to investigate any Charge of Maladministration, whether by Surveyors or any Other Officers. I now go on to say,— nor shall any Person or Persons have (24.) H3 the 62 MINUTJES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. M. Irisk. the Power to summon any one to attend such Court ; but Notice shall be given in the public Papers by the London Board that such a Court will be holden, and at the Place before mentioned. The Sheriff, or such Person as he shall depute, shall act as Chairman ; should he decline to act, then the Magistrates present shall appoint one of themselves to fill the Chair. The Inspector of the Roads in the County as well as the Surveyors shall also attend and produce a Plan and Section of all the Turnpike Roads in the County, with the Plans, Section, and Estimate that may have been ordered at the preceding Court for any Improvements. The Accountant to attend with his Accounts of Income and Expenditure, made up to the 1st Day of January : the Surveyors will likewise attend. The Clerk of the Peace, or some one he shall appoint, shall act as Clerk to this Court, (for which Service he shall receive the Sum of 10/.,) who shall produce a Book, kept at his Office in the County, open at all Times to the Inspection of the Public upon the Payment of the same legal Fees as are at present charged. In this Book the Clerk shall enter all the Proceedings of the Court, and at its Close the Chair^ man shall sign the same on behalf of the whole Meeting. All Matters debated at this Court shall be decided by the Majority of Votes of the Persons then present. Further, that the Clerk of the Peace shall receive an additional 50/. per Annum for registering the Accounts, and any other Business that may be connected with his Office. From the Calculations that accompany these Remarks it will appear that a Sum is retained for Improvements, in the Propor- tion of 4/. to every Mile of Turnpike Road. This Court will therefore decide where such Improvements shall be made within the District, but previous to their being entered upon shall order the Inspector and Surveyors to make Plans, Sections, and Estimates of the same. This Court shall also decide (after hearing Witnesses) when any Dispute may arise as to the Value of any Ground required for Improvements or procuring Materials for the Road Repairs, where the Person to whom such Land may belong is dissatisfied with the Value offered by the Surveyor for the Purchase or for the Damage done to such Land. In case of any Person or Persons being desirous of having a new Turnpike Road, they will have (previously to obtaining the Sanction of this Court) to present in Writing the Consent of Three Fifths in Value of the Persons through whose Land such Turnpike Road shall pass ; also a Majority of a pubHc Vestry to be holden for that Purpose in every Parish through which the intended Road is to pass. The Persons applying shall also produce a Plan, Section, and Estimate of the Expences thereon, together with the Names of responsible Persons who are willing to become Sureties for the Monies required for making the same, and for the future Payment of Interest, and upholding them in repair. But as Difficulties may arise in regard to the procuring of Persons of sufficient Property to become Sureties, an Offer may be made in such Case of a certain Sum of Money for the Approval of the London Board, in order to induce them to make the Road. In either Case this Court shall, if they think proper, order the Inspector and Surveyor to examine into the Correctness of the Plan, Section, and Estimate, and give in a written Report on it at the next Court Day, in order that they (the Court), if they think the proposed Turn* pike Road advantageous to the PubUc, may recommend the same. Within Eourteen Days after the Court has been holden, the Clerk of the Peace shall transmit to the London Board a fair Copy of the whole Proceedings of the Court at which he or his Deputy acted as Clerk. It is proposed that the constantly-employed Men shall be taken as Vacancies occur from the Weekly Men, and the Surveyors and Foreman of the Road Excavators shalF be appointed from these Men. A very heavy Expence is frequently incurred by reason of the Surveyor having never been engaged in the actual Work ; independent of this very material Circumstance, these Promotions will act as a Stimulus to the moral Conduct of the whole of the Workmen, as well as making it a Matter of Interest to get Employment upon the Turnpike Roads. In the Papers which follow will be found a comparative Statement of the present and proposed System of Income and Expenditure, with a Calculation of the able-bodied Men out of Employ in the Kingdom during the Winter Months ; the Number this Plan will produce Labour for, as compared with the present Management ; the Amount of Wages; the Situation of the Residencies of the permanently employed Men (as regards Sussex) ; with a Statement of the Number of able-bodied Men out of Employ in the same County in January 1832, and the Situation of the several Parishes in which they reside. ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 63 Comparative Statement of the present Income and Expenditure of the Turnpike Roaos with the System proposed for the Improvement of the same. I The present System, taken from the Abstract of the Turnpike Road Accounts for 1829, ordered to be printed I by the House of Lords 1833. «. d. Mortgage Debt -6,578,815 2 11 Floating Debt 303,541 13 9 821,586 19 7 Unpaid Interest - Balances due tpi „, ,„_ - Treasurers ./ ^''^^^ 8 11 ToI'ai.Debt ^^7,785,171 5 2 £ *. d. On which the Interest was paid 5,093,410 2 1 1 On which the Unpaid Interest ^ was brought into Charge in > 1,485,405 the Returns - -J On which no Interest wasT ,„„ .^i io n charged in the Returns J •^""^■»41 13 9 Ditto - - - 821,586 19 7 Ditto - - - 81,227 8 11 - £7,785,171 5 2 £ s. d. 236,629 9 8 236,629 9 8 £ s. d. 65,271 I 3 15,172 45,079 4,061 129,583 1 3 /•Brought into Account in the 9th Co- lumn in the _ Returns. Not > brought into Account. {Actual Interest of the Debt not brought into Account in the Returns. sE s. d. Debt whereon the Interest was paid 5^093,4 10 2 11 Debt whereon no Interest was paid 2,692, 171 2 3 Total Debt - ^7.785,581 5 2 Total Interest,-) paid and unpaid J 236,629 129,583 s. d. 9 8 1 3 366,212 10 11 f Part paid, and brought into Account L in the 9th Column in the Returns INCOME. £ s. Tolls received 1,309,014 12 Tolls due, but unpaid 39,542 8 Parish Composition \ gnnif; ii received - J ' Ditto due, but unpaid 7,883 19 Ditto,8upposed Value 1 of Work performed > 1 00,000 by Parishes -J (See Page 373.) Pines - - . Incidental Causes :}■' £ s. d. 348,557 7 288 5 4 38,648 S 1 Total - ^1,555,293 4 10 EXPENDITURE. f. >385. 9 3^ ei 5j 303,173 4 192,745 16 5 491 12 10 £ 8. d. £ S. d. Interest on Debt - - - - Manual Labour Team Labour - 578,237 One Third sup. posed Manual )■ 192,745 16 Labour Residue, Team Labour, and somelmprove- ments Team Labour, as above Land purchased, &c. Repairs, &c. Salaries, &c. Repairs and Statute Duty done by"] Parishes, and not brought into Charge (see Page 373) - Payments, &c. (including Acts of~j Parliament, and Improvements V - " ■ above 100/.) - - J Total - £ 3y"» to >• } £ s. d. 366,212 10 11 495,919 5 385,491 12 10 56,263 18 1 63,968 9 10 196,025 100,000 243,757 2 4 1,907,637 15 4 C Unpaid < Interest (^is added. Expenditure iNCoivie £ s. d. \, 907, 637 15 4 1,555,293 4 10 352,344 10 6 r Includes Statute Duty and Interest not brought I into Charge, ( Expenditure above Incoftie; taking the Gross, and 1 Interest not brought in Charge being added. H4 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE An Analysis of the proposed System for the better Management of the Turnpike Roads, in which is stated the Amount of Capital required to pay off the Debts now due by the Trusts, as also the calculated Incoine. and Expenditure under this System. Capital required for the Payment of the"! Mortgage Debt - - - - J Floating Debt . Balances due to Treasurers Capital required for the First Annual Pay-'x ment of 5 per Cent, in liquidation of the I Debtof 821,526L proposed to pay off the | unpaid Interest in Twenty Years -J Capital required for building 7jOOO Station ^ Houses for the Residence of the con- I stantly employed Men, at the Rate ofl 1201. each House, and 10^. for the Pur- j chase of a Quarter of an Acre of Land to | be attached to the same . . .J To cover contingent Expences £ 6,578,815 303,541 81,227 41,079 910,000 85,338 8,000,000 Balances in the Hands of Treasurers The Amount of Tolls due for 1829, but "I unpaid - - - - -J The Amount of Parish Composition for the ") same Year, due, but unpaid - -J The Arrears of Tolls, Parish Composition, 1 &c. for former Years - - - J ToTAi, Assets available from the Funds of the present Turnpike Road Trusts for the Payment of any Debt's omitted to be brought into Charge, or for any other contingent Payment to which the present Trusts may be liable . - - £ 361,836 39,541- 7,883. 71,106 480,366 It is proposed empowering the Government to issue Bonds or Debentures, each of 1 00^. Value or less, to the Amount of 8,000,00U/., for the Purposes above stated. The Rate of Interest upon such Bonds to be guaranteed by the Government, upon the Security of the Income arising from the Turnpike Roads ; and which Interest being paid quarterly, it is presumed the Amount required may be raised at the Rate of 2d. per Day Interest for every lOOZ., or 31. Os. lOd. per Cent, annually. INCOME. Income from Tolls, as in 1829 ■ from Parish Composition, Manual ^| Labour, and Statute Duty (as in 1829), {^ amounting to 167,799Z., not being re- { quired, will cease to be collected in future J from Fines from incidental Causes Total £ 1,343,557 Nil. 288 38,648 EXPENDITURE. Interest upon the above Sum of 8,000,000/. Digging and breaking 2,400,000 Culjic"\ Yards of Materials for the Surface Re- I pairs of the Roads, viz. at the Rate of ( 120 Yards a Mile J 1,200,000 Yards of Stone at 3s., and^ 1,200,000 Yards of Flints or other Mate- > rials of the same Quality, at ls.4cl. per Yard J Team Labour employed in carrying 2,400,000 ^ Cubic Yards of Materials for Surface Re- (^ pairs, at 2s. 1 d. per Yard, as per Average and Scale following Occasional Team Labour on the Roads Team Labour in watering the Ruads, at 1 particular Places and Seasons - - J Damages to 7,500 Acres of Land in dig- ging Materials, at 3d, per Cubic Yard (1,200,000 Yards) The other 1 ,200,000 Yards, it is supposed, will be dug on Waste Land Repairs to 5,000 Toll Houses,! Gates, Boards, &c., at 21. each J 7,000 Station Houses, \ at IZ. each - - j Bridges and Fences - I } £ 243,333 260,000 250,000 20,000 30,000 15,000 10,000 7,000 } 5,000 -^ Stamps for Agreements for Leases Payment of 7,000 constantly employed Men, \ at 14s. per Week - - _J Payment of 7,000 Men, employed 1 2 Weeks \ in the Winter, to assist the above, at 12s. J Improvements. Payment of 1,456 Men,' constantly employed at 15s. - .£56,784 Payment of Men, employed 1 -^ „ , ^ 12 Weeks, at 1 2s. - .j-/6,216 Team Labour for Carriage of-| r Materials, and Damages in dig- > 22,000 ging the same - -J Purchase of Land, &c. - - 5,000 Payment of Officers Payment of 5 per Cent, on 821,586/, of unpaid Interest - - . } Deduct for the Labour of the constantly "1 employed Men in breaking Materials - J Total £ Income Expenditure 22.000 5,000 254,800 100,800 130,000 83,810 41,079 1,455,822 77,000 1,378,822 ^1,387,493 .^1,378,822 j- ^8,671 applicable to any contingent Expences. -"/ ON" TURNPIKE. ROAD TRUSTS. 65 PRESENT SYSTEM. Expenditure above Income - ^^349,344 PROPOSED SYSTEM. Income above Expenditure - ^8,671 Mr. M. Irish. It is supposed (although no Credit is taken for any additional Income arising from better Management) that a very considerable Advance will be realized. If such should prove to be the Fact, whenever a Sum of 20,000/. is in hand, after the clear Annual Balance between Income and Expenditure is made up, on which there is no outstanding Claim, Part of the Bonds bearing Interest shall be paid off. In like Manner, after the unpaid Interest of 821,586/. is cancelled by the Annual Payment of 4.1,0/9/., the latter Sum will become applicable to a further Liquidation of the Bonds. Whenever the Interest of the Bonds cancelled shall amount to a Sum equal to 1/. for every Mile of Road, then a Reduction of Tolls in every District shall take place in a similar Proportion. Funds expended upon Manual Labour by the present System. (Taken from the Abstract.) Funds expended upon Manual Labour by the proposed System. Manual Labour Team Labour (One Third ") supposed to be Manual) J Improvements, taken from-\ the Notes connected with ( the 7th Column (in the j Abstract) - -J Total 578,237 £ ■ 303,173 192,745 44,128 540,046 Manual Labour in digging! and breaking Materials -J Wages to constantly em- 1 ployed Men - - J Wages to Men employed~\ 24 Weeks in the Winter > Season - - -J Wages to Men constantly employed on Improve ments Wages to Men employed^ 12 Weeks in digging and > breaking Materials -J Team Labour required for above (One Third sup posed to be Manual) Total '} } 290,000 £ 260,000 254,800 100,800 56,784 76,216 96,665 845,265 Proposed System Present System Amount applicable to Manual Labour Ditto _ J . , - .£845,265 540,046 Additional Amount applicable to Manual Labour") ^onr nin by the proposed System of Management J ' Manager Having concluded the Remarks relative to the proposed System of managing the Turnpike Roads, an Attempt will now be made to show the Importance of this Plan as regards the Interest of the Capi£?tlist and the Agricultuiist, as well as those interested in Trade, Manufacture, and Commerce. In order to procure Data for the Calculations that follow, the Weekly and Annual Expenditure of a Man with a Wife and Two Children under the Age of Ten Years, whose Wages amount to 14*. per Week, as well as that of a Man with a Wife and One Child, and a Single Man, receiving 1-25. per Week, is there given in detail. In making out this Detail, Care has been taken to ascertain the usual Charges made by the Country Shopkeepers, with whom the greatest Part of the Labourers Wages is expended, and ,the Price of Flour consumed by the Labourers (taking the Average Price of Wheat for Fourteen Years at 60s. per Quarter, or 15/. per Load). The usual Charge is taken at Is. 4 3 4| To cover contingent Expences - - Total Anncal Expenditure - 4 3 H (contingent) -J Total Weekly 1 j, Expenditure J 31 4 1 4 8 12 Statement of Annual Expendituke. CLASS. PAYMENTS. TOTALS. 1st. 2d, 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. To Landlord — Rent of 10,000 Cottages and hardens, at 41. each per Annum Ditto 10,000 ditto ditto - at 3Z. ditto Ditto 10,000 Lodgings - - at 2/. 12s. ditto - 30,000 To Miller — For 195,000 Bushels of Flour, at 10s. 8d. per Bushel For 130,000 ditto - ditto, at 10s. 8ti. ditto For 65,000 ditto - ditto, at 10s. Sd, ditto (24.) 390,000 For 10,000 Quarters of Ground Pease for Hog Fatting, at \ IZ. 16s. per Quarter - - - -J For 10,000 Quarters of Ground Pease for Hog Fatting, at") \l. 16s. per Quarter 20,000 For 10,000 Quarters of Ground Oats for Hog Fatting, at\ II. 2s. per Quarter - - - -J For 10,000 Quarters of Ground Oats for Hog Fatting, at") 1/. 2s. per Quarter - - - -J 20,000 For 10,000 Quarters of Pollard for Hog Fatting, at 10s. per Qr. For 10,000 ditto - ditto - ditto, at 10s. ditto 20,000 13 £ s. d. 40,000 30.000 26,000 104,000 69,333 6 8 34,666 13 4 18,000 18,000 11,000 11,000 5,000 5,000 s. d. 96,000 208,000 36,000 22,000 10,000 70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Statement of Annual Expenditure — continued. CLASS. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d; 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. PAYMENTS. To Miller {continued) — For 100,000 Bushels of Potatoes, Produce of Garden, Sur- 1 plus of Vegetables as well, for Hog Fatting - / Ditto - ditto - ditto - ditto To Farmer — For 10,000 Pigs (Sixteen Weeks old) for Fatting, at 15s. each For 10,000 ditto - ditto - ditto, at 15s. each £ s. d. 7,500 7,500 20,000 For 10,000 Hundred of Wood Faggots, at ll.5s. per Hundred 12,500 For 10,000 ditto ditto, at 11. 5s. ditto - 12,500 20,000 To Butcher — For 520,000 lbs. of Beef or Mutton, at 7d. per lb. For 520,000 ditto ditto, at 7d. per lb. For 520,000 ditto - ditto, at 7d. per lb. 1,560,000 To Country Shopkeeper — For 520,000 lbs. of Cheese (Dutch), at 6d. per lb. For 520,000 ditto ditto, at 6d. per lb. For 1,040,000 ditto ditto, at 6(f. per lb. 2,080,000 Bacon or Pork included in the Purchase of Pigs, Pease, Oats, and Pollard - - . - For 1,560,000 lbs. of Bacon or Pork, at 7d. per lb. For 520,000 lbs. of Butter, at 9d. per lb. For 520,000 ditto ditto, at 9d. per lb. For 520,000 ditto - ditto, at M. per lb. 1,560,000 For 65,000 lbs. of Tea, at 4s. 6d. per lb. For 65,000 ditto - at 4s. Sd. per lb. 130,000 For 520,000 lbs. of Sugar, at 5d. per lb. For 520,000 ditto - ditto, at 5d. per lb. 1,040,000 For 260,000 lbs. of Soap, at 7d. per lb. For 26(1,000 ditto ditto, at 7d. per lb. For 130,000 ditto ditto, at 7d. per lb. 650,000 For 65,000 lbs. of Candles, at 6d. per lb. For 65,000 ditto - ditto, at 6d. per lb. 130,000 For 620,000 lbs. of Salt, at 1 Jrf. per lb. For 520,000 For 65,000 ditto, ditto. at ]id. at J^d. per lb. per lb. 1,105,000 For 40,000 lbs. of Tobacco, at 3s. 3d. per lb. For 40,000 ditto - ditto, at 3s. 3d. per lb. For 40,000 ditto - ditto, at 3s. 3d. per lb.' 120,000 15,166 13 4 15,166 13 4 15,166 13 4 13,000 13,000 26,000 } — 17,500 17,500 17,500 13,000 13,000 10,833 10,833 7,583 6 4 7,583 6 4 3,791 8 2 1,625 1,625 2,611 2 2,611 2 370 14 3,250 3,250 3,250 TOTALS. sg s. d. 15,000 25,000 45,500 52,000 45,000 52,500 26,000 21,666 1 4 18,958 10 3,250 5,592 18 4 9,750 ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. Statement of Annual Expenditure — contimied. 71 CLASS. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st, 2d. 1st. 2d, 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. PAYMENTS. To Country Shopkeeper {continued) — For 10,000 lbs. of Pepper, at 2s. Ad. per lb. For 10,000 ditto - ditto, at 2s. Ad. per lb. For 10,000 ditto ditto, at 2s. Ad. per lb. 30,000 For 5,000 lbs. of Mustard, at Is. per lb. For 5,000 ditto ditto, at Is. per lb. For 2,500 ditto - ditto, at Is. per lb. 12,500 For 5,000 lbs. of Sugar, at 6d. per lb. For 5,000 ditto - ditto, at 6d. per lb. For 10,000 Quarts of Vinegar, at lOd. per Quart 20,000 For 20,000 lbs. of Currants, at 9rf. per lb. For 20,000 ditto ditto, at 7d. per lb. 40,000 For 60,000 lbs. of Raisins, at 5d. per lb. For 60,000 ditto ditto, at 5d. per lb. 120,000 For 10,000 Mops, at lOd. each For 10,000 ditto, at lOd. each 20,000 For 20,000 Heath Brooms, at 2d. each For 20,000 ditto ditto, at 2d. each 40,000 For Pottery Goods, per Annum Ditto ditto For Earthenware Goods, per Annum Ditto - ditto - ditto For 10,000 Scrubbing Brushes, at lOd. each For 10,000 ditto - ditto, at lOrf. each For 5,000 Shoe ditto, at &d. each For 5,000 ditto - ditto, at 6d. each For 5,000 ditto ditto, at M. each 35,000 For 5,000 Quarts of Shoe Oil, at lOd. per Quart For 5,000 ditto - ditto, at 1 Oii. per Quart For 5,000 ditto - ditto, at lOd. per Quart 15,000 For Tin Ware, Ditto per Annum ditto (24.) For Cutlery Goods, per Annum - - - - Ditto - ditto - ditto - - - " Ditto - ditto ditto - - - - For Umbrella (once in Twelve Years) Ditto - ditto - ditto - - - " Ditto - ditto - ditto - - - " For Leather Gaiters (once in Two Years), at Is. U. per Annum Ditto - ditto - ditto - at Is. 9d. ditto - Ditto - ditto - ditto - at 3s. 6c/. ditto I 4 £ s. d. 1,166 13 4 1,166 13 4 1,166 13 4 250 250 125 250 250 416 13 4 750 750 1,250 1,250 416 13 4 416 13 4 166 13 4 166 13 4 500 500 500 500 416 13 4 416 13 4 125 125 125 208 6 8 208 6 8 208 6 8 500 500 250 250 250 250 250 250 875 875 1,750 TOTALS. £ s. d. 3,500 625 916 13 4 1,500 2,500 833 6 8 333 6 8 1,000 1,000 1,208 6 8 625 1,000 750 750 3,500 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Statement of Annual Expenditure — continued. CLASS. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 3d. PAYMENTS. To Countrj' Shopkeeper {continued} — For 10,000 Hats (One each for Man and Boy, every Two Years) For 10,000 ditto - ditto - ~ ditto' - ' ditto For 10,000 ditto - ditto - ditto - ditto 30,000 For 10,000 Straw Bonnets (One for Woman once in Two \ Years), at 4s. each - - - - J For 10,000 ditto - ditto - ditto - ditto 20,000 For 10,000 Jackets, Waistcoats, and Trowsers For 10,000 ditto - ditto - ditto For 10,000 ditto - ditto - ditto 30,000 For 1,000 Great Coats (One for each Man, once in Ten Years) For 1,000 ditto - ditto - ditto - ditto For 2,000 ditto - ditto ditto - ditto 4,000 For 1,000 Women's Cloaks (once in Ten Years) For 1,000 ditto - ditto - ditto 2,000 For 20,000 Women's Gowns For 10,000 ditto - ditto 30,000 For Calico for Lining Ditto - ditto For Calico for Changes Ditto - ditto - - , For Calico for Petticoats Ditto ditto For Jean for Stays Ditto ditto - - . For Cotton for Aprons, &c. - Ditto - ditto For Cotton for Repairs Ditto - ditto ... For Scotch Sheeting - . . Ditto - ditto For Scotch Sheets and Repairs Ditto - ditto ... For Flannel - - Ditto - . - For Women's Caps, Thread, Needles, Pins, kc. Ditto - ditto - ditto For Hose - _ . Ditto Ditto . ... For Strings for Bonnets and Caps ^'tto - ditto For Cravats ... Ditto Ditto - - . £ t. d. 1,250 1,250 2,000 1,500 1,500 9,000 9,000 13,000 1,000 1,000 "0 2,000 500 500 2,916 13 4 2,333 6 8 333 6 8 333 6 8 TOTALS. 2,333 2,000 6 8 7,500 5,000 1,666 875 13 4 1,250 1,000 1,000 1,000 3,333 3,333 6 6 8 8 2,000 2,000 1,604 1,375 3 4 2,500 2,500 3,500 2,750 2,250 375 375 500 500 1,000 £ s. d. 4,500 3,000 31,000 4,000 1,000 5,250 666 13 4 4,333 6 8 12,500 2,541 13 4 2,250 2,000 6,666 13 4 4,000 2,979 3 4 5,000 8,500 750 2,000 I ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. Statement of Annual Expeadkure — continued. 73 CLASS. PAYMENTS. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2(1. 3d. 4th. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d. 1st. 2d. 3d. 1st. 2d, 1st. 2d. 1st. To Country Shopkeeper (continued) - For Women's Neckerchiefis Ditto - ditto To Coal Dealer — For Coals J Ditto To Publican or Beer Shop — For Table Beer Ditto ditto Ditto ditto For Strong ditto To Cordwainer — For 10,000 Half Boots For 10,000 ditto For 10,000 ditto For 10,000 Women's Half Boots For 10,000 ditto - ditto For 10,000 Boys and Girls ditto For 10,000 ■ ditto - ditto For 10,000 Shoes For Repairs For ditto For ditto sS s. d. 500 500 7,500 7,500 17,333 6 8 17,333 6 8 27,000 8,500 80,000 / 6,000 6,000 6,000 4,250 4,250 5,000 2,000 4,500 5,000 4,000 2,750 To Cooper — For Tubs, Pails, and Repairs - Ditto - ditto To Watch and Clock Maker — For Watch and Clock Repairs Ditto ditto Ditto - ditto To Surgeon and Apothecary — For Surgery and Medicine Ditto - ditto To Broker — For Wear and Tear of Furniture Ditto - ditto To Laundress — For Washing and Mending 1,000 1.000 750 750 1,250 2,500 2,500 3,750 3,750 TOTALS. £ s. d. 1.000 15,000 70,166 13 4 49,750 2,000 2,750 5,000 7,500 13,000 Abstkact of the Tradesmen and others with whom it is supposed the Wages of the Labourers will be expended. Wages expended with the Landlord for Rent Washes expended with the Miller Wages expended with the Farmer Wages expended with the Butcher Wages expended with the Country Shopkeeper Wages expended with the Coal Dealer Wages expended with the Publican or Beer Shop Wages expended with the Cordwainer Wages expended with the Cooper Wages expended with the Watch and Clock Maker Wages expended with the Surgeon and Apothecary Wages expended with the Broker Wages expended with the Laundress To cover contingent Expences - - - Total £ 96,000 276,000 40,000 45,500 358,696 15,000 70,166 49,750 2,000 2,750 5,000 7,500 13,000 6,637 s. d. 3 10 13 4 2 10 988,000 The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Friday next, One o'Clock, (24.) K ( 75 ) Die Veneris, W Maii 1833. The Duke of RICHMOND in the Chair. JAMES M'ADAM Esquire is called in,, and examined as follows. Evidence on <• Turnpike Road Are you the General Surveyor of the Metropolis Roads ? Trusts. I ana. * When were you appointed ? In March 1827. Soon after the passing the Bill to consolidate the Roads. Under the former Trusts were you consulted upon any of those Roads ? I was. I was Surveyor to the Stamford Hill and Green Lane Roads, the City Road, and also the Harrow Road. I had been Surveyor to those Roads for Two or Three Years previous to the Consolidation taking place. What State were those Roads in at that Time ? When I was first appointed to the Stamford Hill Road I found it in a par- ticularly bad State. They were in the habit of using the Kentish Rag Stone for the Purpose of repairing it, from Shoreditch Church to Newington and Tottenham, that, being a Situation exposed to a great Thoroughfare, and upon a Road very flat, was a Material not equal to sustain the Weights, but made the Road in a very sticky, bad, and heavy State. The bad Effects of it continued for some considerable Time after I was appointed Surveyor, there being a great Body of that Stone in the Road, and we were a considerable Time wearing it out, which was the only Way of getting rid of it. Broken Flints and Gravel were then made use of, and the Road was in a considerably improved State when it passed under the Charge of the Commissioners for the 'Metropolis Roads. The Harrow and City Roads were also in very bad Order ; but I was appointed to them but a very short Time before the Consolidation took place. When were the first Measures taken to consolidate the Metropolis Roads ? In the Committee that sat on the Highways of the Kingdom in I8I9 ; they recommended that Measure in their Report ; and in 1820, the following Year, a Bill was brought into Parliament to consolidate the Roads all round London, North and South also. That Measure was lost in the House of Commons, I believe, by a Division of Seventy-two to Seventy-one. There was a very grelat Opposition by the several Trusts that were proposed to be consolidated, and there was no Party possessing the Means to forward the Measure. It was done by private Individuals at the Time, whose Strength was very small when com- pared with the whole Power of the Trusts. Was the Measure that was first attempted different from that for which an Act was ultimately obtained ? It was. The Act of Parliament that was obtained left out the whole of the Roads on the South of the Thames, also the Essex Roads, and confined itself to those now comprising the Metropolis Roads. Have the good Effects been accomplished that were anticipated from the Consolidation ? As far as the Consolidation goes (but it is only in Parts round London that the Consolidation has taken place), I may answer, that I think they have ; but the Committee will be aware that had the whole Measure taken place, the Purchase of Materials would have been upon a larger Scale ; the Competition in buying Stone that arrives as Ballast would not exist; the Measures would (Si.) K 2 have J. M'Adam Esq- 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE J. M'Adam Esq. have been altogether upon a more united and comprehensive Scale, and probably the good Effects might have been augftiented that have taken place. I may fairly state that the Amendment of the Roads of the Commission has been beyond the most sanguine Expectation that could have been expected in so short a Period. I state this the more freely because I take little or no Merit to myself, although I am the General Surveyor, having had the zealous Co-operation of a very anxious Board, and particularly of the Chairman, who for the Two first Years of the Consolidation, when the Works and Operations were going on very actively, devoted almost every Morning from Six o'Clock till Nine in superintending the Roads. Has any new Source for the Supply of Materials been opened ? There have been several. Being Surveyor myself of all the Roads that ap- proach the Metropolis Consolidation, I was aware of the Opportunities that best offered for obtaining a Supply of- better Material upon the most advantageous Terms, and particularly a Stone near Ightham in Kent, which had not been made use of as a Road Material in any Quantity ; but I observed, that upon a Road of which I am Surveyor, called the Wrotham Heath Road, that small Parts of a Green Stone remained, whilst the other Portion of the Materials was worn out. Diligent Search was made to procure a Supply of that Green Stone, and a Quarry of it was discovered in the Hill called Ightham Hili, and- about 20,000 Tons per Annum have since been used upon the Metropolis Roads. There was also another large Source of Supply opened, which was quite new to the London Road, from the Rye Common in Hertfordshire. The Dues upon the River Lea were so high upon the Transport of Road Materials as to be a total Prohibition, until the General Turnpike Acts^ enabling the Trustees of Navigations acting for the Public, which was the Case of the Trustees of the Lea, to lower the Tonnage Dues upon Road Materials ; and by an Application to the Trustees of the Lea the Dues were reduced from 3s. 6d. a Ton to 6d., and we have received of broken Flints from that Source, by the Lea, for the Stamford Hill, Hackney, Lea Bridge, and Green Lanes Roads, about Thirty thousand Yards per Annum, at the Price of 3s. 3d. per Yard, delivered at Tottenham, the loamy and dirty Gravel pre- viously costing 4s. Gd. in the same Neighbourhood. Broken Flints have also been obtained from Rainham, Milton, Sittingbourne, and various other • Points upon the Kentish Coast, to which Agents were sent for the Purpose of opening Supplies, and the Consequence has been a Reduction in Price of nearly Thirty per Cent. You have mentioned other Roads, besides the Metropolis, of which you are Surveyor ; describe generally what those Roads are, and their Extent ? They commence at the End of the Metropolis Roads, and extend generally about Fifty Miles. Both the Roads to Oxford ; the Roads to Alton and Gosport ; the Roads to Cambridge ; the North Roads ; the Road to, New- market ; the Seven Oaks and Tonbridge Roads ; — all the Roads o-enerally which commence upon the Termination of the Metropolis Roads. What is the general State of the Finances of those Roads ? They are in general, I may say, in a flourishing State ; there is no Instance except one, and that is a new Road to which I have been lately appointed, namely, the Mary-le-bone and the Finchley Road ;— all the Roads of which I am Surveyor, except that one, are enabled to maintain the Roads, to pay the Interest of their Debt, to effect great permanent Improvements, and upon most of them we have discontinued the Practice of availing ourselves of Statute Labour, which I consider the first and greatest Boon that can be offered to the Public upon a Turnpike Road. Have many Improvements been made upon them? A great many. The last Winter, when it was so desirable to provide Labour for the Population, who were very much in want of it, an immense Number of Improvements were set in progress on almost all the Roads of which I am Surveyor, to an Extent of many Miles of new Road, and the lowering of a great many Hills, Alterations of Corners, and Works that have been attended with much Benefit to the Roads and the local Neighbourhoods^ 8 What ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 77 What Statute Duty is done upon the Roads of which your are Surveyor ? ./. M'J 80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Have you had much Experience with regard to the watering of Roads ? I have, upon the Metropolis Roads, a great Proportion of which are watered, to the Extent of about 5,5001. per Annum. We find it necessary, particularly where a Road arrives at a fine State of Repair, to be very careful on the Subject of watering. Did you not on one Road in Essex practice watering so as to make the Water descend with great Violence ? That I understand was the Practice upon the Whitechapel Road under the Surveyor of that Road ; his Object was to make a Box of the Road, and water it very much for the Purpose of loosening the Clay with which each Stone in that Neighbourhood is coated; but I would submit with great deference to the Committee, that a Gentleman's Carriage Wheels were not contemplated to be used for such a Purpose, and that a better or more economical Mode for preparing the Materials ought to be adopted. That System has not been pursued by you on your Roads? It has not. Do you think it an advisable System ? I do not. But the general System of watering you conceive to be necessary for the Roads ? I would not use the Word necessary, but the public Pleasure, Comfort, and Convenience demands it ; and in giving that Comfort and Convenience to the Public, we endeavour to make it as profitable to the Roads, or rather I would say as little injurious to the Roads as possible. Watering Roads dej)ends very much with respect to the Road itself — upon the Materials of which it is composed; upon a Granite Road, well formed, for the sake of the Road itself, I should never desire to see it watered; upon a Gravel Road judicious watering binds the Surface and makes it convenient to be travelled over in very dry Weather, which no other Means we can adopt will produce. How is it with a Flint Road ? The Flint Road may be taken as a Medium between the Gravel Road and the Granite Road, in this instance ; and in order to arrive at a proper watering of Roads we have adopted upon the Metropolitan Trust a particular Description of Water Cart, that only will let out a given Quantity of Water at the average Pace a Horse walks ; hitherto that Object has been entirely defeated by the Contractors who engage to do this Work, in enlarging the Holes of the Distributor, by which a large Portion of Water is let out upon, the Road in a short Time ; the Horses are thereby liberated for other Work. We have now very thick Cast Iron Distributors to the Water Carts, and they find it almost impossible to enlarge the Hole, so that no more Water is put upon the Roads than is sufficient to sprinkle the Dust, as near as we can accomplish it. Upon the Staines Trust has the Establishment of Mile-men decreased or increased manual Labour ? The Number employed, taking the Year altogether, is considerably de- creased ; the Number of Men's Work per Day. Do you manage the Road through Brentford ? I do. Would there be any Objection to lifting the Pavement and breaking it ; that is to say, macadamizing it ? I have the Satisfaction of stating to the Committee, that the whole of the Pavement has been taken up, with the Exception of about Two hundred Yards, and that will be taken up in the course of a Fortnight; the whole Town will then be without Pavement, and Kensington also. Did you state, as your Opinion, that a Trust of One hundred Miles of Road would be preferable to one of a smaller Distance, from the Circumstance, that when there was only a Balance of One hundred Pounds a small Improve- ment only could be effected, whereas, when there was a Balance of One thousand Pounds, a very considerable Improvement might be carried into execution ? I did. Do ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 81 . Do you not think that considerable Disadvantage would arise from the j.M'Adamhsq. Circumstance of a Trust extending 100 Miles in Length, as the Meetings of Trustees would be held in different Places, and the Questions would be decided by different Trustees ? When I stated the Trust of about 100 Miles, I did not mean 100 Miles in One Line ; I meant, if Roads from Centres were consolidated in the Form of Stars, that the Management would still be very efficient ; and the Trustees upon those Roads do now practically meet almost upon the same Spot ; for instance, in the Town of Stamford in Lincolnshire there are Five or Six Roads across the Town, and the Five or Six Meetings take place at the same Time in the same Room, one after the other, each having different Clerks, different Treasurers, and different Surveyors, but the same Trustees. There is another great Advantage would arise from the partial Consolidation, still under the Control of the local Trustees, out of whose Hands I do not think the Roads of the Kingdom can with much Advantage be taken at present. There would be better Security upon many of these Roads, which is at present rather doubtful ; but were the whole under One Management I think it would tend very much to the increased Security of the Creditors. Do you mean that with regard to a Road like the Stamford Road? "With regard to Roads like the Stamford Roads. What, in your Opinion, would be the best Distance for a Trust, taking the Distance from the Centre ? Had I the Option of making the Length of Roads, which of course must be tajken as you find them, I should say Ten Trusts of Ten Miles, or Eight Trusts of Twelve Miles j a Quantity of Road about 100 Miles. "What, in your Opinion, would be the best Distance from the Centre for the Consolidated Trust to extend ? Twenty Miles would not be at all objectionable. I take the Distance, con- sidering the Powers of the Surveyor on Horseback to superintend. Perhaps Twenty or Twenty-five would be the best ? It would. I should also suggest the Expediency and Advantage, were slich Consolidations to take place generally, that in a District possessing a certain Number of these Consolidations, — and Five or Six such Districts throughout the Kingdom would be sufficient, — that there should be placed a District General Surveyor, with a Road Office, in the Centre of the District, and that each of the Consolidations should have a Right to demand his 'Service, Skill, - ^ind Advice when the Trustees chose to avail themselves of it, and that to that Officer the whole of the Annual Returns should be transmitted, which Annual Returns should be made up to one Day in the Year, and not during any Day of Three Months, at different Periods, now permitted, by the General Turnpike Act, so that at ho one Time of the Year is it possible, by the Returns sent to the Clerks of the Peace, to arrive at the Annual Cost of the Roads of the Kingdom, one Trust making up its Accounts in April, and its Neighbour making up its Accounts in September. Does it not appear to you that some Inconvenience might arise from the same Day being appointed in all Trusts throughout the Kingdom ; would not the same /Month be better ? I mean one Day to which the Accounts arp to be made up. There is one other Measure I would respectfully submit, which might be adopted upon Turnpike Roads, that would be attended with considerable public Benefit, The Trustees meet annually to receive the Statement of the past Year's Expen- diture. They are required to audit it, and transmit it to the Clerk of the Peace. I would at such Meetings require also, supposing a Consolidation to have taken place, the same Measure that is required in all other public Works and Surveys in the Kingdom, an Estimate of the next Year's Expenditure in detail ; and I would not permit any Meeting, unless it was composed of a certain Number of Trustees, to expend any Sum beyond such Estimate, except a certain Number of Trustees were present by special Notice. At present there ^re few Trusts who know at the. Beginning of the Year what tl^e Expenditure will be during the ensuing Twefve Months. (240 ^ ^""^"^ 82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE J. M'Adam Esq. Would you proposc to give a Power to the Surveyor in case of Emergency, such as a heavy Fall of Snow, Flood, &c. ? It would be desirable that a Power were given to the Surveyor in case of any sudden Emergency. That Power, I presume, any Surveyor would at any Time feel justified in exercising. I speak of this System with great Confidence, as I am in the habit of practising it whenever I can get Permission from the Trusts to do so, which is very generally granted. 1 present my Annual Esti- mate, and the Trustees, having approved it, apportion monthly, quarterly, or in some other convenient Mode, the Money required ; and if any other extra- ordinary Circumstance occurs, at the next Meeting I deliver a Report and an extra Estimate, which is either approved of or rejected ; but it prevents a Number of little Works to which the Surveyor of a Road is constantly exposed and solicited, such as Drains from Gateways, Drains from Houses, and many other Works, to all of which we always find a ready Answer, which is, " That it is not in the Annual Estimate, and I have not Power to make it, unless you can prevail upon the Trustees at a Meeting to order it." In what Manner would you propose to arrange the Question of the Debts on the Roads, if a Consolidation took place ? The Debts might remain upon the individual Tolls of each Road as they are at present. The Management and Expenditure of the Funds would be uniform and consolidated, whilst the Securities remain precisely as they are. If, as I should hope, the Consolidation would lead to the Discharge of the Bonded Debts, the whole then might be placed upon one Footing, with one regulated Toll. Do you mean, supposing the Road A. to be in debt 5,000/., and the Road B. to be in debt 1,000/. only, that the Road A. should continue from the Toll to discharge the Interest upon 5,0001., and the Road B. should con- tinue to discharge the Interest upon the 1,000/. only from its Tolls ? I do. Then supposing the Road A. — the Expence of the Road A. altogether, with the Interest of the Debt upon it, to exceed the Income, would you take from the Road B. Part of its Income, in order to make up the Deficiency upon the Road A. ? I hardly think that would be a fair Measure. What would you propose to do in that Case ? What I meant in the first instance by consolidating the Management would simply be, that an Account should be kept of each Road as they are now kept, but that the Management should be in the Hands of One Set of Trustees instead of several Sets of Trustees ; there should be One Clerk of the whole, and only One. Treasurer, and, if the District were not too extensive. One competent Surveyor ; so that the Trustees of the Consolidated Roads should deal with each Road precisely as the Trustees of the Road itself now would deal with it. Then you would on no account mix up the Debt of one with the Debt of the other, nor the Tolls of the one with the Tolls of the other? In the first instance I do not think it would be a just Act to do so, however desirable for the Public. In the Metropolis Roads we are compelled by Law to keep a separate Account of the Harrow Road and the Kilburn Road, those Two Trusts possessing Landed Estates and Revenues each, which are appli- cable only to themselves, and their Tolls also are kept separate upon the other Roads consolidated. On the Roads forming the Metropolitan Trust is the Debt consolidated as well as the Management of the Roads ? Yes, it is. Has any Inconvenience arisen from that Circumstance ? On the contrary, a great many of the Bonds which were not at Par became immediately worth 100/. and upwards. They have since been entirely paid off by the Commissioners, the Rate of Interest being Five per Cent,, and they borrowed from Two Sources the whole Sum ; and we have now but Two Creditors at Four per Cent, instead of 366 Creditors at Five per Cent. What ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 83 What Objection would there be to consolidate the Debt upon the Stamford, /. M'Adam Esq. for instance^ as well as the Management of the Road ? , I should have no Objection, unless I lived on the Wansford Road, which is a rich Road with a low Toll, and would have to pay the Debt of the Market Deeping Road. If the Management of all the Roads from Stamford was placed under One Trust could not the Tolls be equalized ? The Difficulty of equalizing the Tolls at present arises from the Necessity of raising upon one Road a greater Revenue for the Purpose of paying the Interest of that heavy Bond Debt. If the Funds as well as the Management were consolidated would it not be possible to levy a much smaller Rate of Toll upon the whole ; taking an Average, would not the Rate of Toll be much reduced ? I think it would. You think that great Economy would arise by consolidating those Roads, both in the Purchase of Materials, and in diminishing the Expence of Salary, Printing, &c., and Repairs generally ? I do. I think a great many Advantages would arise ; amongst others, we should have, if I may be allowed to use the Expression, a more disinterested Administration of their Affairs. It is quite true that the Trustees of the Roads, taken generally, come to a Meeting most zealously disposed to the Good of the Road, but each Gentleman comes with his own Improvement in his Pocket, and if there is a small Meeting generally carries his Measure ; whereas upon a Consolidated Road each Line would be represented by its local Trustees, and the Consequence of that would be, we should have the Result of a more extended Consideration of what Improvements were first to be done. By improving the Security of the Debt would not the Trusts be enabled to procure a Loan at a lower Interest ? They certainly would ; but there is very little Difficulty in raising Money upon Turnpike Bonds where the Circumstances of the Road are good. Do you know whether the Trustees in general take any Means to borrow Money at a less Interest than Five per Cent ? Yes, they do. From your Experience, do you believe that Five per Cent, is the usual Rate of Interest for Money borrowed upon Roads? There has been a Reduction to Four and a Half per Cent.; but taking the Country at large Five per Cent, is general. The Money is not very usually borrowed at that Rate, except upon particular Roads ? Except upon rich Roads. Is Money borrowed generally by pubhc Advertisement, by public Tender? I should say not ; where the Road is rich it is easily obtained. Is it generally left to the Clerk ? Generally. If the Trusts were consohdated, would not the Interest on Money borrowed be lowered ? I think the additional Security would be the most likely Means of reducing the Rate of Interest. Would not such a Reduction enable the Consolidated Trust more easily to obtain Money for the Purpose of putting the defective Roads into better Repair ? Certainly, it would have a good Effect. Are you the Surveyor of a Portion of the Old North Road to Huntingdon ? I am. Would not the Principle of Consolidation be particularly beneficial upon several of those Trusts ? It would be, particularly so. All the Road to which the Committee pro- bably alludes, the Annington Road, which commences at Royston, and (24).) L2 terminates 84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE J. M'Jdam Esq. terminates at the Boundary of the County of Huntingdon, at a Place called Kisbyhut, and upon which Road there are several Hills which require Alter- ations, and the Funds of the Trusts put it out of their Power to accomplish those Objects so much desired. Has not such a Plan been frequently under Consideration as the only Means of supplying the Exigency of a certain Portion of this Road ? It has been frequently talked of, both the neighbouring Roads being very rich, and that Road being under peculiar Inability ; the Price of a Load of Gravel upon the first Portion of that Road costs 10s. 6d., being brought all the AVay from Neunt Folly ; and so poor has that Road always been, that it possesses the only Instance of a Land Tax on the neighbouring Land being levied in aid of the Turnpike Repairs ; it is the only Instance in the Kingdom that I am acquainted with. Is this Land Tax levied by the Authority of a special local Act? Yes, it is. The Thoroughfare to Cambridge turns off at Royston ; but the Edinburgh Mail has still to pass over the Annington Road, and all the severe Hills between that and Huntingdon, several of which are One in Five and One in Seven, and having to perform the Journey both Ways in the Dark, it is very dangerous. Repeated Applications have been made by the Trusts of that Road to the Treasury and to the Postmasters General for Assistance, but, I beheve, hitherto without Success. Has not that Portion of the Road frequently been complained of by the Postmaster General? I have received more Letters from Mr. Johnson, the Director of the Mail Coaches, upon the Subject of that Road, than all the other Roads of which I am Surveyor put together, that Road being Sixteen Miles, and I am Surveyor of upwards of Eight hundred. Is there a different Charge for Mileage paid by the Postmaster General to the Persons who horse the Edinburgh Mail Coach on that Account ?' I am unable to answer that Question. Does the Edinburgh Mail Coach go slower over that Part of the Road ? I am unable to state that it does. I will state that, whilst upon that Road we have a very high Toll, and had until very lately a Weigh Engine in use, availing ourselves of all the Statute Labour possible to be obtained, and aided also by a Land Tax, we are scarcely able to maintain the Road and pay the Interest of the Bond Debt, which is moderate ; whilst upon the neigh- bouring Road, the Wade Mill Trust, the Tolls have been reduced, the Bonded Debt all liquidated, although a recent Sura was borrowed for a particular Purpose, Statute Labour all given up, a large Balance in the Treasurer's Hands, and the Means of making the Road perfectly good. Were these Two Trusts consolidated, as the Noble Lord has suggested, it would be of the greatest Advantage to that Line of travelling in general. Are you aware that a few Years ago a Loan of Exchequer Bills was raised by that Trust irom the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners ? I believe that took place just previous to my being appointed Surveyor. Are you aware that an Extension of the Time of Repayment, in consequence of the State of the Finances of the Road, was made, but refused ? I am aware of that. Is it the Middle Division of the Old North Road ? Yes. Is any Advantage derived by having Weighing Machines ? Weighing Engines have in general been entirely abolished of late Years. There are none left on the Metropolis Roads, nor any, I believe, with the Exception of Bagshot, within a Circle of Fifty Miles from London, it having been found in Practice, that, although the Weighing Engine was a Source of Profit to the Toll Lessee, it did not prevent the Roads having to sustain the heaviest Weights, as they were in almost every Instance compounded for. Have ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 85 Have you made any Plan or Sketch for the Consolidation of Trusts ? J. M'Mam Esq. I have not made such Plan or Sketch, but I have considered that many of the principal Towns, such as Leeds, Wakefield, Shrewsbury, Birmingham, Stamford, Leicester, Aylesbury, and others, where a great Number of Roads diverge from, might be made Consolidations in the first instance ; it has been the€ase at Bath, Bristol, and other Places, where the Advantage and Expediency of this Measure induced the Trustees to consolidate the Roads themselves. In the Instances you have mentioned, how were the Debts of the diflferent Trusts disposed of? * I believe at Bristol, which is a considei'able Consolidation, that each Road has a separate Account, but pays Five per Cent, for a general Fund into the Hands of one general Treasurer, each Road having a separate Treasurer ; which Five per Cent. Fund is disposable by Orders of the General Meeting of Trustees for any great Improvement it may be desirable to entertain. For the Payment of Interest in the first place ? I am not aware how far it is applicable ; none of the Roads being under the Disability of paying the Bonds ; they being all at a Premium. And paying an equal Rate of Interest, probably ? I think they do. Do you think that the present Mode by which the Tolls are let is the most advantageous System for the Interest of the Roads ? I think preventing the Trustees putting the Tolls up the first Time at any and what Sum they please, but confining them to the Sum they produced the Year before, under which they cannot be let the first Time, is productive of great Evil ; and it is a singular Fact that on most of the Country Roads of which I am Surveyor we seldom or ever let the Tolls at the first Meeting ; for instance, upon a Trust where the Tolls are worth 2,500/. a Year, and were.let at that Sum, there may not be One Offer for them the first Day, and it might 'he inferred they were not worth that Sum, when, the next Day they will bring 2,800/., the Bidders having, no doubt, in the meantime, arranged among themselves the Sum at which they were to go. Does it ever happen upon these Occasions that the Parties who intend to take the Tolls make Bargains with other Persons whom they think are likely to compete with them to keep out of the Market? I cannot state the particular Fact, but that is supposed. Are you aware that several Individuals are in the Practice of hiring the Tolls to a very large Amount? I am aware of it; there are particular Individuals united in a Company who take large Amounts, One or. Two hundred thousand Pounds a Year. In consequence of this sort of Monopoly of Tolls, does it not frequently occur that one Road is sacrificed to another, as suits the Convenience of those Parties ? That is an Evil that often happens upon Two parallel Lines in the Hands of the same Lessee, one paying a higher Toll than the other. When one of these Parties has contrived to get into their Hands the Tolls upon Two parallel Roads, is it not the Practice to take less Toll than they ought according to their Contract to take upon the one Road, for the Purpose of drawing Custom, while they obtain the full Toll upon the other ? That is too often done, because by lowering the Toll upon one Road it does not follow they induce a Thoroughfare to come from the other Road that is their Road, but it may come from a neighbouring Road on the other ha,nd that they do not rent ; and it is a notorious F'act that the Hay Carts which must arrive in London at Six o'Clock in the Morning will go Miles round to find the Toll that they reduced the most. Are they not liable to a severe Penalty if they do take a less Toll ? They are; but that is frequently evaded by the actual Payment of the full Toll in the first instance, and the Return, at pleasure, of a Pint of Beer. In point of fact, do you find it very difficult to convict the Toll-takers of taking too httle Toll, although you are satisfied that such is their Habit ? It is very difficult, and seldom accomplished. 1 . (24.) L 3 Have 86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE J. M'Adam Esq. Have you any other Suggestion to make with respect to the present Mode of .! ' letting the Tolls, besides that of doing away the Injunction in the Act of Par- liament to put up the Tolls at the Prices at which they were let the former Year? I might add to that, Liberty also of receiving Tenders in writing and sealed, which I think would be a very desirable Mode of letting the Tolls in the first instance. There is Power to do so now the second Day, but that Power is restricted to a Sum not less than that they were previously let for in any instance. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. J. Bevir. Mr. JOHN BEVIR is called in, and examined as follows : Are you Clerk to the Trustees of the Crudwell and Minty Third District, Cirencester ? I am. How long have you been Clerk of that Trust ? About a Twelvemonth, I think ; my Father was Clerk before me. Is your Father alive ? Yes. Were you acquainted with the Details of the Trusts previous to your being appointed ? As far as occasionally attending Meetings of the Trustees in my Father's Stead. Have you received any Communication from the Clerk of the Peace of the County of Gloucester ? I have. To make a Return to the House of Lords ? I have. Did you obey that Order ? May I be allowed to explain it. Say first, did you obey it ? As far as I could. Now explain ? I transmitted those Returns to Mr. Pitt, the late Member of Parliament for Cricklade ; Mr. Pitt is the Treasurer of that Trust (Crudwell and Minty), and receives the Tolls, and keeps the Account exclusively himself; the Clerk has never had any thing to do with it. I transmitted the Order and the Letters I have received from Time to Time to him, and have of course waited his Answer to them to supply me with the Means of complying with the Order. Do you receive any Salary ? None at all. Do you ever transmit any Return to the Clerk of the Peace ? Yes, I do. When? I do not exactly know when. I have a Copy of the Return I made, — the Return to the Clerk of the Peace, and called for by the House of Lords. When did you make this Return to the Clerk of the Peace ? I am not exactly able to tell you ; I think it was about a Twelvemonth since. From whom did you receive the Account that you transmitted to the Clerk of the Peace ? From Mr. Croome, Mr. Pitt's Accountant. 9 Did ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 87 Did you sign it ? Mr. J. Bevir. I did. You know nothing at all about it ? ■ No. You don't know whether one single Item is true or not ? I do not. Are you aware there is a Clause in the General Turnpike Act, enacting a Penalty on the Clerk of the Trustees who does not transmit yearly a Copy of the Accounts of his Trust to the Clerk of the Peace? I am. Has your Father or yourself ever been prosecuted under that Clause ? No, never. I may be allowed also, if you please, to explain that. The Meetings have been so indifferently attended that sometimes for Months together we have not been able to get a Commissioner to pass the Account. Mr. Pitt is the Treasurer to this Road (the Ashton Keynes District). He is a considerable Sum of Money out of Pocket, and the Road is greatly indebted to him ; he has a Floating Balance ; he receives the Tolls annually to pay the Interest of .this Floating Balance, and there is no Surplus out of which the Mortgagees can receive One Farthing. How do you know this ? I could not swear to it j but of course, having Communication with his Accountant, I see his Books. You don't know how much Mr. Pitt received from the Crudwell and Minty District of Road, excepting from his own Statement ? No, excepting frotii his Accountant. This Branch of Road, called the Crudwell and Minty District, is a Branch of the Road leading out of the Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Road, past Mr. Pitt's Domain, and is properly speaking a private Roadr A private Road to Mr. Pitt's Domain, for which the Public pay a Toll ? Mr. Pitt may receive from the Tolls a Twentieth Part, probably, of his Interest. Mr. Pitt is a very considerable Loser by it. How do you know that? I have his Account for Money expended ; that I had from his Accountant this Morning. Is his Accountant in London ? No, he is not. Has the Account been audited and passed at any Meeting of the Trustees ? No, it has never been passed, that I am aware of. Never passed or audited at a General Meeting of the Trustees ? Not that I am aware of. Has it ever been transmitted to the Clerk of the Peace ? I should think not. You, as Clerk of the Trust, receive no Salary for this Road, and you know nothing about it of your own Knowledge? Nothing at all. Do you receive a Salary for the other Two Districts under the same Trust ? Not One Farthing on this Account. But for the other Two Roads ? ^n , ^ i,- . No, not a Farthing. They sometimes pay my Expences out ot Pocket, which, perhaps, may be a Couple of Pounds in the course of a Year. Deliver in the Account you received from Mr. Pitt's Accountant. Same is read, and is as follows • y24.) L4 Wootton 88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr J. Bevir WooTTON Bassett Road, in respect to the Branch of Road from the Malmsbury and ' ^ Cirencester Turnpike Road to the Turnpike Road from Cricklade to Malmsbury, in account with Joseph Pitt. Dr. 1810. Oct. To Amount expended in making the said Branch Road, and for the Erection of a Turn- pike House and Gates at East- court and Minty - _ _ 1817. Nov. 20, To paid for erecting! Turnpike Gates at Minty - J 1818. Sept. 12. To paid for painting 1 Gates at Eastcourt and Minty J 1819. Sept. 1. To paid for Christopher Cole for Alteration to his House, to make it fit for a Turnpike House - - - - - Oct. 23. To paid for keeping Minty Gate - - - - 1823. Dec. 17. To paid for Repairs tol theTurnpike House atEastcourt J 1824. May 15. To ditto 1825. June 2. To paid for Repairs to Eastcourt and Minty Turnpike Gates - - - ^ s. d. 1,200 10 3 5 10 14 10 9 2 8 7 9 1 7 11 3 9 11 1 5 10 1829. Feb. 28. To paid for lowering a Hill, and making aWall on the said Road near Crudwell - ^20 11 Less, received for Plank 1 Stones there dug up - J 1830. Nov. 8. To paid Carpenter for "| repairing Minty Turnpike Gate J 1831*. May 4. To paid Mr. Keene to- wards repairing said Road to Minty - - - _ 1832. Oct. "28. To Interest 1 19 5 2 2 6 6 1,346 2,616 11 1 Cr. 1813. £ s. d. By Cash received for I Tolls to this Time J 1814. ByCash received from 1 Tolls - - -J 1815. By ditto ditto - 1816. By ditto ditto 1817. By ditto ditto - 1818. By ditto ditto 1819. By ditto ditto - 1820. By ditto ditto 1821. By ditto ditto - 1822. By ditto ditto 1823. By ditto ditto - 1824. By ditto ditto - - 1825. By ditto ditto 1826. By ditto ditto - 1827. By ditto ditto 1828. By ditto ditto - - 1829. By ditto ditto - 1830. By ditto ditto - - 1831. By ditto ditto 1832. By ditto ditto - By Balance carried! 100010 « forward - - j ^'®®^ '^ ^ 85 15 6 14 18 3 15 14 16 8 15 17 4 31 1 2 31 10 30 24 10 37 8 37 17 38 8 34 8 34 2 39 11 41 39 1 38 10 10 36 9 10 36 18 2,616 11 1 The Witness is directed to withdraw. The Witness is again called in, and further examined as follows : The Account that you have delivered in is not signed ; from whom did vou receive it ? => 7 j I received it from Mr. Pitt's Accountant, Mr. Strachan of Cheltenham. The Gentleman who has been in the habit of keeping the Accounts of the Road is recently dead, and they are transferred to Mr. Strachan, Mr. Pitt's other Accountant. Is ON TtJRNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 89 Is the Minty or Third District under the same Act of Parliament as the Mr. J. Bevn, Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Road ? Yes. Do the Trustees of the Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Trust meet very regularly ? No ; very irregularly. Do they pass their Accounts annually ? I have never seen any Accounts audited or inspected at a Meeting* Do you mean the Accounts of the Wootton Bassett ? Yes. Of the whole of the Trust ? Yes. Who manages the other Two Branches of the Wootton Bassett Branch and the Cirencester? The Roads have been, under the last Act of Parliament, divided into Districts, and subsequently treated as Three distinct Trusts ; and the Accounts of each District have been separately kept. One is the Ashton Kames, which is the First District ; the Wootton Bassett is the Second District ; and the Crudwell and Minty is the Third District. Mr. Pitt has had the Management of the Ashton Kames and the Crudwell and Minty District ; and the Accounts of the Wootton Bassett, or Secdnd District, have been kept by a Gentleman, one of the Commissioners on the Road, who had kindly undertaken to keep the few Accounts for a Time, and to attend a little to the Road. Your Lordships are aware under the Act of Parliament there is a Penalty for a Commissioner acting as Treasurer, and we must not therefore consider him as Treasurer, or else he would be liable to that Penalty. Is he not Treasurer ? No ; he has only kept the Accounts 'till a Gentleman could be appointed Treasurer. How long has that been ? Not long. There have been but few Accounts to keep. That Portion of Road has not long been completed. When was the Act of Parliament passed ? The Year before last. Is the Minty Branch the Third District ? Yes. Has Mr. Pitt the Management of the First and Third Districts ? Yes. Is any Account delivered by Mr. Pitt to the Clerk of the Trust, or to any other Person, for the Third District ? No. There ought to be an Account of this Road passed and audited with the other Accounts annually, and sent to the Clerk of the Peace. The Annual Meetings have sometimes been adjourned for Months for want of a sufficient Number of Commissioners to pass the Accounts, which will explain the Cause of their not being transmitted regularly to the Clerk of the Peace. What is the Amount of the Debt of the Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Trust, including the Three Branches ? I do not know what the Debt upon the Three Branches is. The Amount of the Floating Debt due to Mr. Pitt on the First Branch, I believe, is upwards of 1,200/., the Tolls of which, I believe, barely pay the Interest. The Witness is directed to withdraw. The Witness is again called in, and further examined as follows ; Do you receive any Salary as Clerk ? Not a Farthing. (24.) M Are 90 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. J. Bevir. Are you Clerk to the Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Trust ? I am. My Father has been Clerk for the last Twelve or Fourteen Years, and has never received a Farthing. Are you Clerk to any other Turnpike Trust ? My Father is Clerk to the Cirencester District of Roads, which is an exten- sive Trust, and I superintend the Business of that Trust, for which he receives a Salary. How much ? ^50 a Year. Does that Trust send Returns to the Clerk of the Peace ? Yes. Have the Trustees Annual Meetings ? Annual and Monthly Meetings. We used to have Weekly Meetings ; now we have Monthly Meetings. Is the Trust well managed ? Under very good Management. In what Place is the Annual Meeting held for the Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Districts ? At Ashton Karnes. When was the last Annual Meeting ? I cannot say. Had you a sufficient Number of Trustees present to make a Meeting to satisfy the Terms of the Act of Parliament ? We can barely get a sufficient Number of Trustees to act, and that is the Reason why the Accounts are irregularly audited and passed. Do you know how many Trustees there are belonging to the Minty District who live within Eight Miles of Ashton Karnes ? Not Half a Dozen I should think. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next. One o'Clock, ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 91 Die Martis, \4P Man 1833. The Duke of RICHMOND in the Chair. Mr. JOHN BEVIR is called in, and further examined as follows : Evidence on Turnpike Road Do you wish to make any Explanation of your former Evidence ? Yes. Trusts. Mr. J. Bevir. Is the Branch of Road called the Crudwell and Minty District, a Branch of Road that extends out of the original Road past Mr. Pitt's Domain, properly speaking, a private Road ? . This Branch of Road called the Crudwell and Minty District is a Branch of Road leading out of the Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Road." Explain what you mean by a private Road ? This Road was made by Mr. Pitt at his own Expence, and that is what I meant by private Road. Is it a Road used by the Public ? Yes, it is. From what Place and to what Place does it lead ? It leads from Minty to Crudwell, and from thence to Malmesbury. Is it much used by the Public"? The Tolls pay about 301. a Year. Was it an Accommodation to the Pubhc that the Road should be made ? I cannot speak much to the Locality of it ? Was not the Road finished, or nearly so, before the first Act of Parliament was passed ? The Proceedings of the Commissioners report so. Was it made under the Powers of an Act of Parliament that passed before it was made ? I suppose it was made according to the Powers in the Act of Parliament passed for that Purpose. Did the Act under the Authority of which Tolls were collected upon it pass after the Road was made ? I don't know ; the Act was passed in 1810, I believe. Refer to the Trust Book, and read that Part of the Proceedings of the Year 1810 which relates to the Minty District? " Fleece Inn, Cirencester, Monday, 18th June 1810. We, the undersigned, being Five of the Commissioners named and appointed in and by the Act of Parliament passed in the present Session of Parliament for making and main- taining a Turnpike Road from Cirencester in the County of Gloucester to Wotton Basset in the County of Wilts, and a Branch of Road from the Malmesbury and Cirencester Turnpike Road near Crudwell Churph to com- municate with the Turnpike Road leading from Cricklade to Malmesbury at or near Minty Common, met at the Time and Place above mentioned, pursuant to the Directions of the said Act, and having taken and subscribed the Oath prescribed by the said Act, appointed George Bevir of Cirencester aforesaid. Gentleman, to be the Clerk to the Commissioners for the Purposes in the said Act mentioned; also appointed Messrs. Pitt, Croome, and Co., of Cirencester CQi.) M 2 aforesaid, 92 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. J. Bevir. aforesaid, Bankers, to be Treasurers of the said Road and Branch ; also appointed David Miles of Oaksey in the County of Wilts, Gentleman, Surveyor of the said Branch of Road. And the said Branch of Road being now nearly com- pleted, Ordered, that for the Purpose of collecting the Tolls pursuant to the said Act Three Gates be erected and set up on the said Branch of Road ; viz., in the Cross Roads at or near the Chapel House in East Court in the Parish of Crudwell ; one of them in the Road leading from Oaksey to Han- kerton on the East Side of the said Cross Roads ; another in the said Road leading from Oaksey to Hankerton on the West Side of the said Cross Roads ; and the other in the Road leading from Minty to the Village of Crudwell on the North Side of the said Cross Roads. Ordered, that a Gate for the Purpose of collecting Tolls be also erected and set up on the said Branch at Minty near to a Cottage there belonging to Christopher Cole. Ordered, that no Toll be collected at more than One of the said Gates, in the course of the same Day, for any Horse, Cattle, or Carriage. Adjourned to Monday, 9th July next, at the Fleece Inn in Cirencester, at Eleven o'Clock in the Forenoon. Signed Thomas Byrch, Robert Wright Hall, William Adams, Joseph Pitt, David Miles." You do not know whether an old Road was repaired or a new one made ? I do not know. You do not know whether it was a pubhc Highway ? I do not know. Was Mr. Pitt at the Expence of the Whole of that Branch ? He was. Do you know where Mr. Pitt is at present ? I believe he is at Home at East Court. Had you ever seen any Account of the Minty or Third District of the Cirencester Road until Mr. Pitt's Accountant gave it to you a tew Days ago ? Never. Who is the Treasurer of the First and Third Districts of the Cirencester and Wotton Basset Road ? Mr. Pitt. Does he give an Account to the Trustees of the Expenditure and Income upon the First District of the Road ? Yes, he does. Do you know if he is the Treasurer of the Second District ? No, he is not. Do you know the Reason why Mr. Pitt gives an Account of the First District and not of the Third District ? , No, I don't. If they were both public Roads would he not be bound to produce an Account for each ? I cannot explain the Reason why he does not do so. Through whose Property does the Third District of the Road pass ? There are various Proprietors j I don't know who in particular. Is Mr. Pitt the principal Proprietor ? He is the Owner of a great Part of the Land. What is the Rate of Toll levied on it ? I do not know. Who appoints the Tollkeepers ? Mr. Pitt. The Witness is directed to withdraw. ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 93 JAMES M'ADAM Esq. is called in, and further examined as follows : J-M called Sub-Surveyors ; I have them in different Situations, and have a different Management generally. The Men I call Assistant Surveyors receive and pay no Money whatever ; they measure all the Work, and they put all the Work 'out with the Cross Level, the same as is used by Mr. Telford. I put out any Work or Alteration with a Level as an Engineer i the Assistant Surveyor measures all minor Work, and attends when I pay the Man at the Head of different Gangs, who brings a List of the different Names, and the Assistant knows the Measure of all Work produced in a Monthly Return. They are always paid every Month, and on a Friday, to prevent their going to Beer Shops and other Places on the Saturday, and every Farthing is paid on every Trust every Month ; and I may observe that I have found, on many Trusts I have taken to, a weekly Payment ; and it has been wished by the Trustees that I would continue that Rule ; but I have generally stated, that the Effect of paying Men monthly is to make them more careful ; to make them hoard the Money one Month after another, and that their Wives get a greater Share of it than if they were paid every Week; and that Custom, I believe, has made some very disorderly Men become very useful Servants, (24.) O 4> Did U3 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Wr. J. A. Stokes. Did you not find a Difficulty in beginning that Practice ; how was the lyiian to ■ live for Three Weeks 'till the Day of Payment came round ? There were some Complaints, but they generally arose from dissolute Characters, those that could not be trusted. I authorized the Assistant Surveyor not to let thetn know that I gave any Authority, but, if he found any sort of Necessity, to lend a Man some few Shillings to the End of the Month ; but it never was continued above Two or Three Months. Are the Men you employ generally picked Men ? I make a Rule of never removing any Ma.n that I find upon a Turnpike Road I have fresh taken to without good and sufficient Reason, endeavouring to employ all the Men in the different Parishes ; and if they were not what they ought to be, I endeavoured to make them so, and not to turn them off without an absolute Necessity ; and whenever I turned a Man off I reported the Circumstance at the following Meeting, with the Reason. When you take on a new Man, do you inquire into his Character ? They generally apply from the different Parishes, and I inquire their Character from the Parish Officers, or Persons recommending them, before I take them. You do not take them unless their Characters are satisfactory ? Certainly not. Do you give a Preference to married Men ? In reference to different Works, such as going to a Distance to cut down a Hill or other Contract Work, single Men are the best ; but generally we wish to employ the Men who have Families. Do you think any Benefit would arise from the Ten Trusts of which you are the General Surveyor being consolidated, so as to be under a more regular Management ? I do not know that there would ; my Opinion has generally been, that the Trusts best managed are those that lie in considerably long Lengths, taking a straight Line rather than a Centre. Would not there be greater Economy in the Purchase of Materials if One Trust did not bid against another ? No ; I do not think there would be. In speaking of that, I have got a Ring, as it were, round my own Residence, and I have always made a Rule of accommo- dating every other Trust as much as I possibly could ; indeed, as long as there was a single Stone in a Quarry they should have a Share of it. But the Price paid for Materials is indefinite, from the Manner, in which the Law regulates the Price of those Materials ; and I may say that in some Instances, if I was to apply at a Petty Sessions with regard to the Price of Materials to be paid to a single Individual, that might be ruled according to the Price One of those Magistrates himself received on another Trust. Some of the Trustees made an Order on their Book, according to my Recommendation, that a Price exceeding Double the Value of the Fee Simple should never be paid for Materials from whence the same was removed. Do you know many Instances where more than Double the Value has been given ? I know Instances, and many, where Ten Times the Amount has been given for Land that has been sold afterwards, and where I have explained the*Measurement of the Bulk of Stuff removed, and also measured the Quandty of Land, and stated the Result to some of the Proprietors. They have actually declared they were ashamed of their Agents for thinking of charging such a Sum ; that was the Case with a Gentleman only the other Day. Do you make good the Ground after taking out the Materials? Yes, we always do that. The Argument at some Sessions has been, that they must call a Special Sessions ; that was a Point I referred to. With regard to the great Difficulty of settling different Matters without a Special Sessions, in which Case it is necessary to give Notice to all the Magistrates acting and residing in the District, I have attended Four different Times, for Four Hours each Time, at the Distance of Seventeen Miles, at a Petty Sessions, for an Order for Statute Duty, before I have been able to get the Proportion or the Amount to be paid fixed. 12 By ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 113 By what Act is that Authority given to the Magistrates in Petty Sessions ? Mr. J. j. stokes. The 3d & 4th Geo. 4. ; there is a Clause in the Act which says no more shall be paid for Road Materials than they could be made of for other Purposes ; but that is evaded, and I may say in almost all Instances, unless when we meet with a reasonable Person, who is perfectly satisfied with a fair Value. Would not the Consolidation of Trusts produce a great Saving in the Salaries of Clerks ? It would. Is not there a large Charge now for the Salaries of Clerks, Printing, and Advertising ? It depends on the Trust ; in some Trusts the Clerk's Receipt altogether, both for Law Business and Salary, is extremely small and reasonable ; in others most extravagant. With regard to the Conveyance of Land, I have endeavoured, when- ever I have had an Opportunity, to purchase the Land, and the Amount has been paid without a Conveyance ; but some Clerks will not allow it to be done ; where a Conveyance is had, the Expence has often been greater than the Cost of the Land. You have an Officer called a Sub-Surveyor in most of the Trusts in which you are concerned ; what is his Salary ? His Salary is generally about 30^-. a Week ; with regard to the District he covers, he looks over sometimes more Trusts than One, to lessen the Expence, if they adjoin. Do you keep a Horse for him ? He sometimes keeps one himself. With regard to the Division of the Worcester Roads, there are Four Trusts on one Side the River Severn, and Four Trusts on the other ; the Four on this Side of the Severn require a Person to be there constantly ; there is great Traffick over those Roads. You are Superintendent of the whole Line, and all the Branches ? Yes. You have mentioned that Persons were employed under you, and the Salaries they had ; do you pay any Salary to those Persons ? Yes, in some Instances^ according to the Trust. On the Average, to what Extent ? I have a Clerk at Worcester who is a regularly bred Surveyor, and has worked under Mr. Telford ; he takes One Side of the Severn ; my former Clerk was only a Writer ; I now give to this Person 100/. a Year, and he superintends that Side of the District. 1)0 you pay any thing else, and what ? I do not recollect that there is any thing else paid personally by myself but that at present. Do you pay your own travelling Expences ? I pay all my own Expences, With regard to the Damage the Wheels do to the Turnpike Roads of the Kingdom, I beg leave to refer to the Annual Report of the Commissioners of the Shrewsbury and Holyhead Road ; on that Part of the Road from Chirk to Gobowen, where the very Complaint is made which I complain of throughout the Kingdom. That Part of the Road is travelled over very much by Coal Waggons, is it not ? Yes ; and that I referred tp in my Communication to the Committee of 1822, showing that that Road would not be cut more than the rest, but that (as this Report says) a great many of each Sort of Wheels are thickly studded with projecting Tire Nails. Has any Part of the Parliamentary Grant been applied to that Part of the Road? That I cannot say. Are the Coal Carts which go along it very heavily laden, with weak Horses ? Yes, and bad Wheels. (24.) P Whtat 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. J. A. Stokes. What Description of Material have you in Worcestershire ? There are some very good ; we pick out Granite from Malrern Hill ; we have also blue Lyas, Quartz, Gravel, Oolite Limestone, Oolite Gravel, and Silicious Gravel ; and though! have never used it, I am now procuring some Trap Rock, endeavour- ing to improve the Surface at the Entrances to the City of Worcester in a way we have not been able to do yet. I have One District entirely repaired with Bristol Limestone. As to the Trap Rock, the Experience I have had is in travelling over it onljs not having used it. It appears to me one of the best Materials we have ; but I have always found that mixing Two Materials renders them better than either one alone. Do you find that using Limestone with another Material furnishes a Cement, and binds the two together ? Yes. Is Granite better than Limestone ? Yes, it wears longer, for Limestone at best is but a blending Material ; Granite is a wearing Material, and both blended together make a very excellent Road. Some Years ago I made an Experiment with an artificial blending Material, or what I might call a Cement. I had Quartz Pebbles broken very small, and I spread some small Quartz Gravel finely sifted, mixed with Steel Filings and Salt upon it. This was on a Road laid down Twelve Years ago in a Market Town on_ the high Road from Worcester to London, and that Part has never been repaired since. That was Covering on a Road already made? It was a Street in a Town in a very bad and broken State, with Quartz Pebbles Pitching ; they were stocked up and finely broken, and the Mixture sprinkled over as it was going down. Was the Expence of that great ? There was not a Calculation made of the Expence per Square Yard ; but I am confident it would not answer for general Purposes, on account of the high Price by the Ton. What is the Town ? Pershore. If Two different Materials are of different Solidity and Hardness, is not the Con- sequence of their being mixed that the Road wears into Holes ? It would if they were put in Dabs, a Wheelbarrow in one Place, and another in another ; but when the main Stuff is put on, then we spread that over, and if it happens to be good Weather, and goes down by the first Intention, it becomes good, and will be far better than any one Material separate ; it is what Mr. Telford has called a blending Material. In the Streets that have been macadamized in London, in some Instances nothing has been used but Granite, and in other Places the Granite has been laid down with a soft Gravel which used to be employed in binding the Pavement Stones ; has it not been the Case, that the soft Gravel wearing faster than the Granite has produced Holes in a very short Time, and do you not conceive that would be the necessary Consequence ? No, not if spread over a proper Surface ; if they take the Opportunity of spreading it over just as it is settling down it will wear even and smooth altogether. When I first took to the Road between Bourton on the Hill and Chipping Norton I found that Road in an extremely ruinous State, so that I was alarmed with regard to the Possibility of restoring it with the then Income we had. I began by laying down broken Oolite Limestone. I just let the Stone begin to go down, and then spread the Quartz Gravel over it, and that Road will, I am confident, now wear with those Two Materials Four Years longer than the Oolite Limestone by itself. Which of those Materials was the hardest ? The Quartz Gravel. That was put on last ? Yes. Has not that Road, from an extremely embarrassed State, been relieved from Part of its Debt ? It is being improved now very fast j every Month there is a Balance paid to the Treasurer, and that Road may very soon get out of Debt ; and it was so bad that 2 I stated QN TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 115 I stated to the Trustees that the only Chance there was, was to borrow a Sum of Mr. J. A. Stokes. Money to put the Surface into a safe State immediately, and then to see what could be done. Was the Road about to be indicted by the Post-office ? It was. With regard to the Effect of the Wheels, I should mention another Instance on the Road running towards Warwick. When first I took to that Road every Yard of it was in an indictable and dangerous State: we did but little to it; there was very little Money to lay out; but very soon after I took to it the Moreton Rail- road was opened, and all the heavy narrow-wheeled Waggons taken off it ; I then put it into repair, and since that Time we have spent a mere Trifle upon it. . Supposing the heavy Carriages were to come upon that Road again, would it stand the Work ? Perhaps not much better. Unless the Traffick were introduced upon such Wheels as I have recommended, and then I airi confident we should spend no more than we do at present. When the Traffick upon that Road ceased, it was very natural to expect where the Railroad ended that an increased Traffick would come upon the Roads approaching the Terminus of that Railroad ; and at the present Moment, and during the last Winter, — a very bad Winter for Roads, — the Road from Moreton to Stow has been cut up, and I may say almost as bad as the other was, and there is no preventing it ; there are Wheels of that Description running over it every Day, and some of the Waggons travelling Twice for One Toll, and cut that Road to Pieces, so that a great Proportion of the Rent received for Thirty Miles of Road is obliged to be spent on Four Miles of it. The Materials of that Country are a soft White Stone ? Yes, but we pick the best we can ; some of the Oolite is a beautiful Material, and makes a pleasanter Road for Horses and Carriages to travel over than almost any other ; it is softer for the Feet of the Horses, and makes an excellent Road for good Wheels. If the Stage Coach Wheel was made upon your Principle, the vihole Breadth bearing on the Ground, would not the Draught be greater than with one on the « Principle of its bearing only on a certain^ Proportion on the Ground ? No, I believe it would run easier. Do you believe that it would run heavier on account of a larger Surface pressing on the Ground ? The larger Surface prevents its entering the Ground, and where it makes an Impression on the Ground it inevitably increases the Draught exceedingly ; the Moment the Carriage begins to cut into green Sward the Horses begin to draw hard. You mean to say that the same Principle applies, though the Road is so hard there is no Impression made upon the Road ? I have followed almost every Description of Carriage made use of, Coaches and Waggons, and every other, to see the Effect in dry as well as wet Weather ; if one of the Mail Coaches with round Tire is followed To-night, and ttje Spot is examined over which it has passed, many small Bits of Materials will be found broken and injured and cut ; whereas, if you follow a Two-inch Sole that is perfectly flat Surface, no such Injury will be found. All my Experiments have been made upon actual Carriages and real Roads, and not with regard to Machinery or any thing of that sort, and if the Difference is not perceptible the Country can never feel it in any way. Every Impression made upon the Road, however small, increases the Resistance ? Yes. Are you enabled to explain in greater Detail the great Advantage of the conical and cylindrical Wheels ? Yes ; it will be found in a Publication of my own, called *' Observations relating to the Laws for Highways in England, with practical Plans proposed and explained for the Reduction of the Expence of repairing the Highways and Turn- pike Roads of the Kingdom."— The Witness delivers in the same. (Vide Appendix (A.) to this Day's Evidence.) ( 24.) P 2 Supposing 116 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. J. A. Stokes. Supposing a Road so absolutely hard that the narrow Wheel does not make any Impression at all upon it, would a broad Wheel require a greater Draught than a narrow Wheel. . I believe not ; neither do I believe there is any Road, with the common or with very good Materials that would not be cut, and that we should perceive the cutting by the Mail running over it with a narrow Wheel. Admitting that it Is possible to make a Road so perfectly hard as to prevent a Dent being made by the Passage of a Wheel, do you not admit that the broad Wheel would have a greater Friction against the Road than the narrow Wheel. No ; particularly where we state the two Extremes ; the Maximum of the Carriage Wheel is Two Inches in width, and the Minimum is less than Half an Inch on a new round Wheel ; if a Pavement is hard, and made perfectly smooth, say a flat Street, let it be made perfectly clean, and a Mail driven upon it Ten Miles an Hour, the Stone shall be bruised and cut by the Wheels going over it ; the narrow Wheel would bruise it, the other would not. Is not the Quantum of Friction increased in proportion to the Superficies of the Parts that come into contact. It must in Theory, but I have endeavoured as much as possible to divest myself of all Theory, except where I apply that Theory positively to Practice. You have stated that the broad Wheel would not produce any perceptible bruising or displacing of the Materials on a Road ; do you not conceive there is some displacing and bruising Materials, though to your Senses it is not per- ceptible ? That is what is called the Attrition of Carriages, which I compare in regard to a Road, if well made, in a similar way to the rubbing down of a Coach Panel with a Stone they make use of for merely smoothing, but that it would not bruise, or injure, or cut to pieces. , If the Surface of that Stone is a Foot Square, is there not greater Friction than if it is only an Inch Square ? Yes, it must increase according to the Superficies. Will not the same Law apply to the Attrition of Wheels against the Road ? No ; if a narrow Wheel runs on Half an Inch, and that Wheel has Two Tons Weight over it, and I have another Wheel of Two Inches in breadth, there is but One Fourth of the Weight added to each Half Inch of the Surface ; but what I am anxious for always Is to refer to the Effect, leaving Theory out of the Question, whenever I can come to Practice. In further Explanation, to prove that the Attrition is extremely small, when I had to make an Arrangement to send the Nine-inch Waggdn to London, I was determined to try it, to have no Accident, fearing its Enemies might blame the Construction ; I loaded it with Seven Tons of Gravel, and sent it on a .rainy Day Seven Miles ; I followed It every Yard, to examine the Effect, and had it driven along the Side of a rounded Road ; and in the Centre I took It to another District, on Oolite Limestone. I unloaded the Grave!, to make use of it there, and re-loaded It with Sand. I followed it till within a Mile of my own House. I then got on a Pony, and went to a Magistrate who had told me that my Theory with respect to flat-soled Wheels would never do, and that I had never read Cummings or Edgew'orth ; I said, I have read them both, and will confute them both ; and if you will come and see the Effect of It, you will then be satisfied. I went down to his House, and he came and met the Waggon, and he brought with him a large Sheet of Foolscap Paper ; we fastened It down upon the Road, a flat Part of the Road It Is true, for no other Wheels had been used upon that Road, made of the hard Quartz Gravel ; the Waggoner drove the Fore Wheel and Hind Wheel over that Sheet, as it lay on the Ground with the Seven Tons of Drift in it ; and the Commissioner — he was a Magistrate also — took up the Paper himself, and raised it up, and looked through It ; there was not a single Hole. He then said, " I declare you are right, there is no twisting ;" I said, whatever twisting there is, it is not perceptible. That was a conical Wheel ? Yes ; it was a very severely dished Wheel. Would ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. IIT Would not a conical Wheel, released from the Axletree, and propelled by any Mr. J. ^. Stokes. Force, run in a Circle ? If it were dislodged from the Axletree it might ; but it is so contrived by the Builder of the Carriage as to make it what they call creep ; it is narrower in front of the Wheel than it is behind. Have you any other Suggestions to make ? I have in my Hand Copies of several Clauses, which I think might be introduced with Advantage into any new Turnpike Act. The Witness delivers in the same. (Vide Appendix (B.) to this Dafs Evidence.) The Witness is directed to withdraw. Mr. GEORGE DACRE is called in, and further examined as follows : Have you any Samples of Materials to produce ? Mr. G. Dacre. Yes, I have ; one of those is an Hudson's Bay Stone, another a Guernsey {pro- — ■, ducing the same'). How many Tons of the Hudson's Bay Stone do you procure ? I cannot answer that Question, but will get it from the Surveyor's Returns. The Number of Ships arriving from Hudson's Bay vary materially every Year. I was asked on a former Day as to the Salaries received by the several Surveyors ; perhaps I ought to have mentioned that we require the whole of the Time of the Surveyors to be exclusively employed upon the Road, from Five o'Clock or from Daylight in the Morning till Six in the Evening ; we require them to live on the Centre of the Division they attend to, and also to keep a Horse and Cart, to enable them to inspect the whole of the Division every Day ; the Salaries are — Samuel Farey, Whitechapel Division, Four Miles, or Four Miles and a Half, 60/. ; for the Ilford Division of Three Miles, and the Romford Division of Seven Miles, 140/. ; making together 200/. ; Mr. Ledger, for his Division of the Road, making about Seventeen Miles, 180/. ; Mr. Ward, for his Division of Brook Street or Brentwood Division, Eight Miles, 120/. This (producing it) is a Plan of the Road. Have you any other Surveyors ? No ; there is a Foreman at 18s. in some of the Divisions, or i/. is., a Week, who attends more particularly than the common Labourers to Two or Three Miles ; but the whole are under the Direction of the Surveyor himself, who usually sees the whole Line of Road every Day ; the Surveyors make a Return every Week to the Office, on separate Sheets of Paper, stating each Day what each Labourer was employed about, his Name, and at what Work. What is the gross Amount of Salaries paid to your Surveyors ? ^500. ; they have about Thirty-six Miles. Besides the Meetings stated in the Calendar I delivered in on a- former Day, there are several Committee Meetings ; Meetings sometimes every Week or Fortnight. Is the Work done by the Day or by Task ? By the Day principally ; Task-work occasionally, where the Work can be set out. Do the Three Surveyors practise an uniform System.. Yes, they do. Has that always been so ? Yes, always j some prefer putting on the Gravel rather more in the Autumn, and others in the Spring. There was a Memorial signed by Coach-masters ? Yes ; about Eighty-five or Eighty-six ; there was great Reason for complaining at one Time, but the Road is now improving. What is the Clerk's Salary ? My Salary is Two hundred Guineas, Independent of Law Charges ? Yes ; whatever I can transact as Clerk, not being obliged to be ati Attorney : (24.) ' P ^ ^"^^ 118 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. G. Dacre. such as passing an Act of Parliament, in prosecuting an Indictment, or any thing — ■ ■ in which an Attorney must be employed, is not included in the Salary. You do all the Business in which professional Knowledge is not required ? I am obliged to be an Attorney, for the Purpose of preferring an Indictment, or passing an Act of Parliament ; all those Things I am paid for extra ; I give constant Attendance to the Meetings, and to the Business of the Turnpike Roads every Day. What is your Explanation as to the Balance in the Treasurer's Hands in 1830? There appears to be a great Balance in the Treasurer's Hands at the End of each Year ; that arises from the following Cause : a few Days after those respective Dates, the Treasurer being directed to pay several Tradesmen's Bills and other Expences, which he pays^ a few Days after the Account has been made up, showing that large Balance; the Income being 14,000/. a Year, of course this Balance refers to nearly 3,000/. a Quarter ; therefore, though the Balance appears to be 3,969/. at the End of January 1829, it will be reduced to, say 1,900/. immediately after, by his making the Quarterly Payments. There was 7,000/. Balance in January 1830, was there not? Yes ; subject to the last Observation, and within a few Days after that was reduced by so much Money. The Audit took place on the 25th of March 1830. At the General Meeting on the 19th April 1830, the Treasurer was directed to pay off the Bond Debts, viz. by the following Minute : — " Ordered that the Treasurer do pay off the several Bond Debts due from the Trustees, namely, the Debts due to Mr. Mudge and Mrs. Lucas, forthwith ; and the Amount to Col. Raikes within Two Months from this Date." Mr, Mudge and Mrs. Lucas paid off 30th April, and Col. Raikes 19th June, 1830. To what Amount ? a^7,ooo, which left scarcely any Balance in his Hands. Are there no Debts now ? Not any ; we subsequently borrowed 1,000/. which has been paid'off ; we have at no Time taken more than Three Fourths of the Toll allowed by the Act of Parliament. You recommend the watering of all Roads, as a Preservation of Roads ? I do ; we have practised it for several Years, and certainly with Advantage where the Gravel is of a Nature to require it. How far is the extreme Point of your Trust from London ? Eighteen Miles to Brentwood, and about as far on the Ongar Road at Passingford Bridge, at the End of the Parish of Woodford, where it joins the Epping Trust. Do you not think it inconvenient to be obliged to put up the Tolls at the Price at which they were let the preceding Year ? Yes, I think there is an Inconvenience in it, but not so great as there used to be when Twenty-one Trustees were obliged to be present ; we can now transact the Business with Seven, and at a shorter Notice, and are at liberty to receive a Tender if there is no Bidder ; that was the Case on the late Letting, about a Year ago ; there was no Bidding from any Parties, but several Tenders delivered in at an Increase of Five or Ten Pounds above the former Rent. Is that owing to a Clause in your Local Act ? No ; in the General Act. That prevents Combination, for some other Person can put in a Tender and take away the Tolls from the other who had what is called paid the others out. Would it not be an Improvement if Tenders were received in the first Instance? I think it might, but those Tenders are delivered in at the same Meeting ; a Spirit of Competition by letting is in many Instances preferable to bidding. What Effect can it have eventually upon the letting, at what Price it is put up ? I think the Parties know what it actually did fetch before, and that it will be put up at that Sum, and they make up their Minds whether to bid or not^ knowing it cannot be put up lower. The ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 119 The Tolls in some Instances will not produce the same Amount as they did the Mr. G.Dacre. Year preceding ? , No ; then there is the Trouble of a second Meeting. Do you suppose that a Man would not bid for the Tolls unless he knew what they produced the preceding Year ? There are some Men who will bid, knowing, that Mr. Levy, or whoever the Person was, would not bid too much for them. They must know in some way or other what they produced the Year before ? They have generally in their Partnership some Person who knew what they produced the Year before. Then what Effect can the Amount at which they are put up in the first instance produce upon the Amount of their Biddings ? The Trustees cannot at their first Meeting go lower than they were let for the preceding Year. Have you any thing further to state ? There are many Suggestions I could make as to Improvements in a future General Act applicable to Turnpike Roads, of which I have a List here ; for instance, if the Trustees are obliged to take a Grant from Copyholders, upon every Death there must be a fresh Admission, which is a useless Expence as far as a public Body is concerned. In the Barking Road Act there is the Clause, that when the Treasurer or Trustees are admitted, and pay a Fine, the Lord shall be compensated upon that One Admission, instead of a Deed of an Enfranchisement, but that that Process shall act as an Enfranchisement. The Act of Parliament states that an Annual Statement of the Account shall be sent to every Trustee. Another Clause states that all Justices of the Peace shall be Trustees ; the Names of Justices cannot be known to the Clerks of Roads ; for instance, I should have to send out, I should think, 1,500 Copies. The Act of Parliament states that they need not qualify ; any Justice of the Peace may walk in and vote without his Name being previously known. The Expences of passing an Act are very serious on small Roads, in some instances taking a whole Year's Income. How would you obviate that ? Parliament have made a great Amendment, by making the Fees payable out of the Consolidated Fund, and extending the Time to Thirty-one Years. The Expence of Tables and Tolls and Notices mentioned by the Act come to a yery serious Sum of Money on many Roads with small Incomes. Stamps on Leases are so great that on the present Occasion we have no Leases ; the Trustees think that having the Money in hand will be a sufficient Guarantee ; it is certainly very doubtful. I have expressed an Opinion to the contrary. With respect to the Mile Stones or Mile Guides, and the Direction Posts, which the Act of Parliament obliges us to furnish, they are a very serious Expence ; on some Roads they come to Four or Five hun- dred Pounds. As to Encroachments, there are Four Clauses in the Turnpike Acts, none of which are sufficiently clear, but require Amendments ; for instance, as to removing Nuisances, it says they shall be removed after Twelve Hours Notice 5 on our Road we give them Notices in the Morning, and the Carriages or Tubs, or whatever they are, are taken in at Night, and brought out again next Morning ; they have obeyed the Notice by removing them within Twelve Hours ; the very same Carriage comes out again next Morning. With respect to the Clause about Drivers misbehaving, let them go at any excessive Pace whatever, furious Driving is not mentioned in the Clause unless they cause a Hurt or Damage ; they may therefore overturn a Person, and if they do not hurt him there is no Penalty. As to cutting down Trees, they are not at liberty to cut down Trees which are ornamental ; the Word ornamental may mean a Tree at a Quarter of a Mile Distance ; we have them certainly at a great Distance from the House contended to be ornamental. The Trees overhanging the Road may be lopped, but it does not add the Footpath and Cause- way ; they may overhang Right and Left some Seven or Eight Feet, but if they do not overhang the Road, it is contended that we cannot lop them. The taking of Land to improve the Road from a Lunatic's Estate is a serious Affair. With respect to Sir Gregory Page Turner's Land, I believe as much as Four or Five hundred Pounds Expence was incurred in the taking One Piece of Land 5 if the Committee of the (24.) P 4* Estate 120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. G. Dacre. Estate was authorized to give leave it would prevent the assessing before a Jury. — ■ An Expence arises of Stamps on Toll Leases. I consider that a Lease is absolutely requisite in several points of view, whenever it obliges the Lessees to provide or do any thing contrary to the Provisions of the Act ; for instance, the Lessees may name a Toll Collector without any Jurisdiction from the Trustees, and may put on Prize Fighters or People of that Character. Without a Lease we have no Authority to bind them not to employ any Person without our Sanction and Warrant. There is no Power of taking a Garden, or ornamental Ground, or an Avenue, or a House, to improve the Roads ; generally speaking a House is the greatest Grievance. With respect to the widening a Road, if Trustees were empowered to purchase the Whole of that House, not taking a Portion of it, which would be a Grievance on the Party, very often it would be no Hardship on the Party, and a great Assistance to improving the Roads. There is One Clause which has been altered Five Times, I think, in the Acts of Parliament, as to the Compositions. Each Act has amended the former Act; so that unless the Trustees look exactly to the last Act of Parliament, they find themselves in error as to the Acts. The Ninth of George the Fourth alters all the others. I think if the Compositions were regularly and equitably assessed, it would add materially to the Income of the Roads. I believe it is not the Case that that is sufficiently attended to. That would be at the Cost of other Highways ? Perhaps it might. With respect to the Balance in the Treasurer's Hands, and having the annual Audit, I think that might be greatly improved ; it is quite clear that the Trustees of all Turnpike Roads ought to meet Four Times a Year, and it was suggested that it would be material that the Accounts of all Turnpike Roads should be made up to one particular Day and Month in each Year. We used to make up ours from the 30th of January to the 30th of January ; but within these Two Years we took Eleven Months, and make it up to the 31st of December. By the Calendar of Meetings I delivered in, it will appear to your Lordships that we have a Division Meeting, which investigates the Bills of each Division within a Fortnight of each Quarter Day Meeting, and within a Fortnight of this all those Recommendations come before the General Board. It would be very practicable to bring all the Accounts up to the 31st of December in every Year, as to Receipt and Expenditure, with One Exception only, that if the Tolls are not let ; sometimes we do not let them, and have to keep them in our own Hands a Month or so. They might not be let from the ist of January ; that might be obviated by letting them for Two Years and Eleven Months ; we let them generally for Three Years. It has been suggested that we might do better by letting them from Year to Year ; that 14,000/. or 15,00c/. a Year is a large Sum to speculate upon for so long a Time. The Road running parallel with ours is the Barking Road, and the East and West India Dock Road, the Road to Tilbury Fort, that is a Proprietary Road ; they have many more Provisions in their local Acts than we have in ours; if they, as a Proprietary Road, thought they could get more Custom on their Road by reducing their Tolls, they could at any Moment make Arrangements for taking a Portion of the Traffick off our Road, which would be a serious Loss to the Renter of the Tolls for Three Years ; that is to be taken into the Calculation of the Lessees of the Tolls. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Monday next, One o'Clock. Appendix ON TURNPIKE, ROAD TRUSTS. 121 Appendix (A.) Observations relating to the Laws for Highways in England. — See p. 115. In contemplating their Amendment, it appears highly desirable that all the Roads should be brought as much as possible under one general Law, subjecting those who use them to one uniform System of Taxation, to the end that each Person should contribute in proportion to the Damage he may cause or the Benefit he may receive thereby; but under existing Circumstances the Legislature has wisely separated the Laws relating to Turnpike Roads, and the Roads repaired at the Expence of the Parishes. As the Law with respect to Turnpike Roads naturally refers in a great Measure to the Collection and Expenditure of Funds, of which Parishes are not in the Receipt, it is needless to make the Laws under that Head apply to the Highways in general, but it does appear advisable to make the Highway Laws equally applicable to Turtapike Roads, where the same shall not contradict or interfere with any Laws relating exclusively to Turnpike Roads. The natural Difficulties at present existing to a Consolidation of the Laws for all the Roads of the Kingdom, or an equal Tax by way of Toll or otherwise, arises, first, from the unequal and uncertain Quantum of and Distance over which the Streams of Traffic pass ; secondly, to. the enormous Debt contracted by the different Turnpike Trusts throughout the Kingdom ; and last, though not least, to the heavy Expence requisite for sufficiently repairing both one and the other, for the safe and expeditious Passage of the Public over them : could the Wear and Tear to which the Roads are now exposed be considerably diminished, the Expence of Repair would naturally be reduced, the heavy Debt got rid of, and a nearer Approach to Consolidation practicable. When it is considered how much the Roads have been improved, and how well the Turn- pike Laws have worked for the Public Weal, under all their Disadvantages, it appears desirable that some general Law should allow Trustees of present Turnpike Trusts (whenever their Funds will allow them) to extend their Districts, and give Assistance to Parish Roads that approach^ join, and supply any considerable Amount of Revenue to the present Tolls, or could be made so to contribute by the Erection of additional Gates, under certain Restrictions, with the Approbation of Justices in Petty Sessions within the District, thereby extending as far as possible the present System of Tolls in preference to taxing the Owner or Occupier of the Soil merely because he originally constructed the Highways, at a Time when the Produce of the Soil was almost exclusively the only heavy Article conveyed over them. In the executive Part of the Law as relates to the making or repairing the Roads, the first Object will be to secure the Appointment of such Officers as will be most likely to ensure to the Public the Advantages intended by the Legislature. If it is left to the Majority of the Inhabitants in Vestry assembled to elect Waywardens, Experience teaches us that in most Parishes they will select such Persons only as are likely to make the least possible Exertion in the Reparation of the Roads ; and though it may be considered that the present Surveyors do not exert themselves as much as could be wished, great Allowances must be made on account of the Deceptions practised upon the Magistrates, and the general Opposition made by the Inhabitants generally to those Officers who are anxious to do their Duty, and in some Instances such Opposition is carried so far as to make it a most onerous and disagreeable ' Duty. If the Inhabitants continue to nominate Ten Persons, as at present, and the Magistrates! select Two Persons, with the Assistance of an inspecting Surveyor appointed by Justices in Petty Sessions, it is more than probable that the System will work much better than heretofore. The Condition of the Highways has within a few Years been partially much improved by the Introduction of the modern System of making and repairing the Turnpike Roads of the Kingdom by Telford and M'Adam, which Improvements would have been carried to a much greater Extent had the Recommendation of the Committee of the House of Commons of 18 19, relative to the Appointment of General Surveyors, been adopted ; and still further, had District Commissioners been appointed by Parliament to attend all Quarterly Meetings of local Trustees. With the Introduction of the modern System of Repair very sanguine Expectations of a serious Reduction in the Expence was held out by its Promoters, but those Expectations have not been realized ; indeed most Turnpike Trusts have much increased their Debt, and in the Absence of almost all Legislative Enactments for their Preservation against the Wheels of heavy Carriages, it is impossible to reduce the Expences upon a great Proportion of them. In touching upon the Subject of Wheels the Author is fully aware that the prevailing Opinion is against any general Alteration, chiefly arising from the Effect of delusive Theories, and the Failure of the Plans proposed by such Theories, however ingenious, and the Prejudices of Men connected with the Construction or practical Use of the Wheels of heavy Carriages ; but in no Instance has either the one or the other failed to acknowledge the Advantages where the Experiment has been made : and the Author, in giving a Detail of his Plans for the Alteration of Wheels by Act of Parliament to numerous Agriculturists, has not met with any other Sentiment than that of a cheerful Desire to accede to its Enactments, and gratefully to accept the intended Boon. In the 3d Geo. 4. some Attempt was made for the Preservation of the Turnpike Roads by a Regulation as to the Wheels used for heavy Carriages, Instruments known and acknowledged to have caused the chief Destruction of our Roads for the last Two Centuries ', for wherever a bad Road is found with a plausible Quality and Quantity of Materials, it is not the Subsoil, the Shade, or the Weakness of this or that Material, nor yet the Weight carried over them* (24.) Q ^i'^^"^ 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE either alone or collectively, that causes the Destruction, but the Wheels, the Construction of the Wheels passing over such Roads, which, under its Weakness or Wetness, is more than it can bear ; neither the Holyhead Road, leading from Chirk to Gobowen, (see the Annual Report of Commissioners, 27th March 1833, p. 6.) nor the Mail Road leading out of the City of Oxford towards London, vi^ould either of them have become founderous Gridirons during the last Winter but for the Construction of the Wheels passing over them. With preserva- tive Wheels the Road from the Coal Mines of Ruabon, the Oxford Road with its Oolite Limestone, the weak Roads of Cornstone, and bastard Limestone of Herefordshire, of the vitrified Sandstone or Cinders of Derbyshire, would all become smooth, sound, and good, at an enormous Reduction in the Expence of Repair, if the present Wheels were prohibited. The Clause of the 4th Geo. 4. above referred to was a Prohibition of Wheels of a less Breadth than Three Inches, but that Enactment, like most of its Predecessors, was repealed before it came into operation. If upon Turnpike Roads the Wheels of heavy Carriages cause great Destruction, much more so must they injure the weaker Highways. No one well acquainted with the Matter can hope to see the Turnpike Trusts out of Debt, or the Highways become generally good, until some Means shall be adopted to introduce Wheels that will rather tend to improve than destroy. All the Plans heretofore proposed hare either failed in Principle or been evaded in Practice, or, as was the Case with the Sixth Section of the 3d Geo. 4. c. 126. just referred to, which was given up in compliance with a Cry raised on the Part of the Farmers and Agriculturists, who, " in Petitions and Complaints against the Act, put forward this Clause as a principal- Grievance, obliging them in Times of agricultural Distress to incur Expences in altering their Waggons. Two principal Objections have been urged against the Clause — the Expence to which it would have put the Farmer in obliging him to have new Wheels, and the Impossi- bility of broad Wheels being used in many of the narrow Parish Ways." The first Objection is under the present Plan almost done away with, and the second is entirely devoid of Foun- dation, for the Wheels that would best answer the general Purpose of preserving the Roads would follow any of the Country Waggons through the worst Roads in the Kingdom, Various Plans have from Time to Time been recommended to Parliament for the general Improvement of the Wheels, and if " a Judgment may be formed from the numerous Measures thought necessary, none of them seem to have accomplished the Purposes for which they were enacted." The Author of these Observations having studied the different Theories and Propositions submitted to the Highway Committee from Time to Time, particularly those of 1808 and 1 8 19, determined to put them to the Test of Experiment with different Carriages upon common Roads, and to that End procured conical Wheels, with both flat and barrelled Soles, from Four and a Half Inches to Nine Inches in Breadth, and also cylindrical Wheels scien- tifically constructed, and from a long-continued Use of them has proved beyond a Doubt that the Wheels now made use of in the Country may be so altered at a reasonable Expence as to answer every Purpose in protecting the Roads from Destruction, reduce the whole Matter of Wheels, Weights, and Number of Horses to one simple general Rule, the Breadth of the Wheel regulating the Number of Horses. As to the Costs of altering the Wheels now in use : A narrow-wheeled Cart may be converted into a Three-inch Regulation Wheel at the") Expence of - - - - J Ditto, Ditto, to Four and a Half Inches, will be - - - - Ditto, Ditto, to Six liiches - - - - - Correcting a present Six-inch Cart to the Regulation ... A narrow-wheeled Waggon to Four and a Half Inches - . . . Ditto, Ditto, to a Six-inch - - ~ . . . Correcting a present Six-inch Waggon - - The above Alterations have been made, and the Wheels of the different Breadths have been in constant Use since the Year 1832, under the Inspection of the Author. The Nine-inch Waggon has been used for the general Purposes of a Farm, and also used by Jolly, the great Carrier from Worcester to London, as a Stage Waggon, with the unqualified Approbation of Nine different Waggoners through whose Hands it passed. Different Common Carriers have in constant Use at this Time the Six-inch Wheels herein recommended, encouraged by a Reduction of One Quarter of the Toll throughout Thirteen different Districts of Turnpike Roads in Worcestershire and the adjoining Counties ; besides different Noblemen, Gentlemen, and Farmers who have adopted the Four and a Half and Six-inch Waggons, some for the Benefit of the Roads, and others for the Advantage of the reduced Toll. The Author is fully aware of the Theories of Cummings, Edgeworth, and others, and of the deep-rooted and far-spread Prejudices they have created in the higher Classes of Society respecting the comparative Merits of conical and cylindrical Wheels. Their Theories are introduced under cover of mathematical Axioms and geometrical Rules, from whence they draw mechanical Conclusions at once at variance with Facts as relates to Wheels, as well as their Effects on the Roads over which they travel. Such abstruse Theories are only to be rebutted and their Delusions at once exposed and swept away by actual Experiment. Leave the Experiments made with Strips of Cloth, Cones, and Cyhnders sliding on a Mahogany Tftble to Cummings, and bring the solid Waggon Wheel upon the actual Road, and the Proof is simple and satisfactory. The conical Wheel is superior to the cylindrical for general 1 1 Purposes, £ s. d. 2 12 3 5 4 13 1 7 6 8 2 14 ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 123 Purposes, equal to it in preserving and consolidating the Roads, and capable of being produced by altering the Wheels now in universal Use through the Kingdom, which the cylindrical Wheel cannot be. The most striking Proof as to the relative Effects of the preservative and destructive Wheel is on Green Sward, with equal Weights and the same Number of Horses, then will the Necessity for the Prohibition of the one and the Encourage- ment of the other be evident and convincing. From actual Experience in the Use of flat soled Wheels, the Author is of opinion that such would be the Advantages of the Clauses he recommends for a general Bill that in Three Years the Expence of repairing the Turnpike Roads of the whole Kingdom would be reduced Fifty per Cent., the making of new and repairing old founderous Highways would be much facilitated, a thinner Coat of Materials only being required- As to any anticipated Opposition on the Part of the Farmers and Agriculturists, it is not likely to be so serious under the present Circumstances a* formerly, being so much for their own individual Advantage, both as to their Liability of Highway Repair and the Reduction of Toll that the Legislature would propose ; added to which, it is a Boon that Mortgagees of Roads will be great Gainers by in the End, and give at least some probable Expectation of liquidating the heavy Debt under which the Turnpike Trusts throughout the Kingdom now labour. That a great Diminution of the Wear and Tear upon all the Roads in the Kingdom is practicable the Author of these Observations is prepared to prove, not by Theories, but from actual Experiment and Practice, with a well-grounded Expectation that such would be the Reduction in Expenditure upon many of the Trusts now under his Management as General Surveyor, that in a few Years they would be enabled, with the present reasonable Tolls, (i. e. not exceeding 6d. a Horse drawing Ten Miles,) to accumulate such a Fund as would maintain such Road in repair for ever, in like Manner as many Funds have heretofore been formed from the Tolls of Bridges for their future Maintenance and Support. In concluding these Observations the Author cannot refrain from observing that the usual Prejudices against all Authors of new-fangled Plans for altering or executing, by different Means, very ancient and old-established Methods, will naturally arise against him ; his only Answer to which is, that it is not Theory, but Practice, upon which he confidently rests his Claim to Support : all that he proposes, recommends, or promises are practical, useful, and positive Advantages, their Truth depending upon actual Experiment. With a declared Readi- ness and Will-ngness to meet all and every Objection that any Person or Persons may offer against them, and strongly as he now recommends his Plans to the Country, he feels confident that he still falls short in stating the Advantages that in all Probability will ultimately result. Harvington, near Evesham, Worcestershire^ 1 10th May 1833. i Appendix (B.) Clauses proposed to be introduced into a new Turnpike Act. — See p. 117. And whereas numerous Difficulties and Inconveniences have arisen with respect to the Form and Manner of holding Special Sessions for the Highways, and considerable Expence and Trouble thereby incurred by Trustees of Turnpike Roads in apportioning Statute Labour and other Matters -, for Remedy whereof be it further enacted, That it shall and may be lawful for the Justices of the Peace within their respective Divisions, or any Two or more of them, and they are hereby required, to put in force all Enactments contained in this Act at any Petty Sessions to be held in their respective Divisions in the same Manner as heretofore at the Special Sessions for the Highways und6r the 13th Geo. 3. c. 78., without giving Notice to all the Justices acting and residing within such Division, except in Cases where the same shall be particularly directed by this or any other Act, or except where any Two or more Justices shall cause a Notice to be given to all the Justices as aforesaid by their Clerk, any thing in this Act contained to the contrary notwithstanding. And whereas great Damage and Destruction to the Turnpike Roads and Highways is caused by the Shape and Construction of Wheels now in general Use, particularly those for the Conveyance of heavy Goods ; wherefore for Remedy thereof be it further enacted, That from and after the ist Day of January 1834 no Carrriage of any Description to be used on any Highway or Turnpike Road shall be built or constructed with Wheels the Nails of the Tire whereof shall not be countersunk in such Manner that the said Nails shall not rise above the Surface, and the Surface of the Wheels on the Soles thereof shall be even and flat next the Ground, of whatever Breadth the same may be, when standing upon a horizontal and flat-Surface, and that the Tire of the Wheel shall not be of a narrower Breadth in any Part thereof than the Felly on which the same is placed. And be it further enacted, That no Coach, Omnibus, or other Carriage with Springs, travelling as a Common Stage for the Carriage of Goods and Passengers or either of them, shall be used on any Highway or Turnpike Road after the a5th Day of March 1834 with Wheels of a less Breadth than TWo Inches, being constructed according to the foregoing Regulations. n ■ j r That no Cart to be used on any Highway or Turnpike Road, after the above Period, for the Conveyance of heavy Goods and Merchandize, having the Wheels under the Breadth of 124. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Three Inches and not less than Two Inches, shall be constructed or used except with Metallic Springs, so hung as that the Carriage when loaded shall not block on the Axle or under Carriage. The same Enactment shall apply to Waggons with Four Wheels when the said Wheels shall be under Four Inches and a Half, and not less than Three Inches. And be it further enacted, That from and after the ist Day of January 1834 no Waggon or other such Carriage without Springs shall be constructed with Wheels of a less Breadtji' than Four Inches and a Half, nor any Cart or other such like Carriage without Springs with Wheels of a less Breadth than Three Inches. And be it further enacted, That the Owner of every Carriage with Springs, which from and after the 25th Day of March 18^4 shall be driven on any Highway or Turnpike Road, of a Construction contrary to the foregoing Regulations, shall forfeit and be liable to the Penalty of , and the Driver to ; and that the Owner of every Waggon or other Four-wheeled Carriage without Springs, which shall be driven on any Highway or Turnkpike Road after the above Date, of a Construction contrary to the foregoing Regu- lations, shall forfeit and be liable to the Penalty of , and the Driver to • ; and in like Manner the Owner of any Cart as above to the Penalty of _ , and the Driver to ; and the like Penalties shall be recoverable from the said Owners and Drivers respectively for every Horse drawn in any Waggon or Cart over and above the Number of Horses by this Act allowed. Provided nevertheless. That when any Penalty is inflicted upon any Driver, the Owner of the Carriage shall be equally liable to pay the same, having the Power to deduct the Amount, together with the Expences, from any Wages that are due or may become due to the said Driver. Provided nevertheless, That no Waggon travelling quite empty, or employed only in car- rying or conveying Corn or Grain in the Straw, or Hay, or other dry Fodder, to be placed in any Barn or Stack. during Hay-time or Harvest, or which shall only cross any Highway, or shall not pass above One hundred Yards thereon, shall be liable to the aforesaid Penalties until after the 25th Day of March 1837. And be it further enacted, That no Waggon or Cart shall be drawn on any Highway by a greater Number of Horses than are set down in the following Schedule, not more than Four Horses drawing in Length at any One Time. Breadth of Wheels for Carts. Number of Horses not to exceed Breadth of Wheels for Waggons. Number of Horses shall not exceed 2 Inches and under 3 Inches, \ with Springs, only - - J 3 Inches and under 4i Inches - 4| Inches and under 6 Inches - 6 Inches and under 9 Inches - 1 Horse. 1 Horse. 2 Horses. 3 Horses. 3 Inches and under 4^ Inches, J with Springs, only - | 4^ Inches and under 6 Inches - 6 Inches and under 9 Inches - 9 Inches and upwards 4 Horses, and then in Pairs only. 4 Horses. 5 Horses. 8 Horses. And whereas by the general Introduction of the Wheels herein-before described a great Reduction in the Espence of repairing the Turnpike Roads of the Kingdom will ensue, thereby giving greater Security for the Money borrowed on the Tolls ; for Encouragement thereof be it further enacted, That the Toll now charged upon any Turnpike Road upon any Waggon, Cart, or other such like Carriage, or the Horse drawing the same, with Wheels of a less Breadth than Four Inches and a Half, or the Horses drawing the same, shall be reduced upon any such like Carriage having Wheels of a like Breadth, and constructed according to the foregoing Regulations, One Sixth at the least after the 25th Day of March 1834; and where the Toll is fixed upon any Waggon, Cart, or other such hke Carriage, or the Horses drawing the same, upon Wheels of Four Inches and a Half and under Six Inches, the same shall be reduced at least One Fifth upon' Regulation Wheels of a like Breadth ; and in like Manner where the Wheels shall be Six Inches and upwards the same shall be reduced One Fourth at the least ; and the said reduced Toll shall be taken and recovered by the same Persons and Means, and by and under the same Powers, Provisions, Penalties, and Forfeitures, as the original Tolls might have been taken in case the same should not have been reduced, any thing in this Act or any other Act or Acts of Parliament to the 'contrary notwithstanding. Provided always. That no Exemption from all or any Part of any Toll under any General or Local Act or Acts of Parliament shall, after the passing of this Act, be claimed or allowed for any Carriage carrying or conveying Stones, Bricks, Lime, Timber, Wood, Gravel, or other such Materials, nor any Dung, Mould, Soil, Compost, or Manure of any kind whatso- ever, to be used in the Cultivation of Land, except the same shall be carried on Wheels of the Breadth of Six Inches at the least ; and that where any additional Toll has been granted by any Act or Acts of Parliament for any particular Goods or Materials during the Winter Season, the same shall not be demanded or taken after the passing of this Act when the same shall be conveyed on Regulation Wheels of the said Breadth of Six Inches at the least. Provided always. That Contractors of Tolls may be released from their Contracts, so far as regards Tolls or Penalties for Overweight, on giving Notice to the Treasurer or Clerk of the Trustees on or before the ist Day of January 1834, according to the Eighth Section 13 of ON TJQRNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 125 of the 4th Geo. 4. c. 95. in the same Manner as if that Clause had been re-enacted in this Act. Provided always, and be It further enacted. That nothing in this Act contained shall extend to allow or in any Manner to lessen any Reduction already made upon Wheels being constructed according to the Regulations in this Act mentioned, but that the Reductions shall relate only to and be deducted from the Toll fixed upon common Wheels, not having reference to any particular Form thereof, or in any Way to prevent any greater Reductions where the Trustees of any Turnpike shall see fit to make the same. And be it further enacted, That it shall and may be lawful for any Surveyor or Waywarden, Constable, Churchwarden, or Overseer of the Poor, or any Person rated to the Highways of any Parish at a Rent of Pounds or upwards, or any Person authorized by them, to measure and examine, or cause to be measured and examined, the Breadth and Construction of the Wheels of any Carriage, Coach, Waggon, Cart, or any other Carriage passing on any Highway or Turnpike Road ; and if any Owner or Driver of any such Carriage, Waggon, or Cart shall in any way hinder or obstruct any such Surveyor or other authorized Person in making such Measurement and Examination, every such Owner, Driver, or other Person so misbehaving shall for every such OiFence forfeit and pay any Sum not exceeding Pounds nor less than Shillings. And whereas by the general Introduction of the Wheels herein-before described the Occupiers of Land will be put to some Expence in the Alteration of their Wheels, and the Landowners will receive great Benefit from the Improvement of the Highways in general, be it therefore further enacted. That from and after the passing of this Act, and for the Space of Three Years afterwards then next ensuing, all Assessments levied for the Use of the Highways in any Parish or Place shall be paid in equal Shares and Proportions by the Landowners and Tenant, the Tenant remaining liable to pay both Moieties to the Waywarden, with Power to deduct One Moiety of the same from the next Rent that may become due and payable to his Landlord, in like Manner as Tenants have heretofore paid and deducted Land Tax on their respective Lands and Premises. And whereas great Danger is caused to His Majesty's Mail Coaches and other Carriages travelling by Night by coming in contact with other Wheel Carriages not having any Lights attached thereto ; for remedy whereof it is further enacted^ That the Owner of every Wheeled Carriage travelling by Night from the ist Day of August to the 31st Day of May in every Year, both Days inclusive, shall cause a Lamp to be affixed in a conspicuous Place in Front thereof and on the OfF-side of the said Carriage, to be lighted at all Times when travelling on any Highway or Turnpike Road during the Night-time, save and except on the Two Nights preceding the Full of the Moon, the Night of the Full, and Two Nights following. And be it further enacted. That for the Purposes of this Act the Night-time shall be deemed to commence at the Expiration of the first Hour after Sunset, and to conclude at the Beginning of the last Hour before Sunrise; and in any Case where the said Lamp shall be neglected to be lighted as aforesaid the Owner shall be liable to the Penalty of , ^nd the Driver to Shillings. And whereas it is expedient that one uniform System should be adopted as relates to the Hedges adjoining Turnpike Roads, and that the same should at all Times be kept pruned and trimmed ; and in such Case the Owner or Occupier would be put to considerable Expence ; be it therefore enacted. That as soon as the Owner or Occupier of any Land adjoining any Turn- pike Road shall have laid, plashed, and trimmed any live Hedge to the Height of Four Feet as aforesaid, the Surveyor shall every Year afterwards, and, as often as the same shall require, clip and prune the same, so as to form what is usually called a clipped Hedge; and that where any Fence by the Side of any Highway shall be ruinous, and insufficient to protect Cattle, Sheep, or other Animals travelling along such Highway from straying from the Track thereof, the Surveyor shall give Ten Days Notice to the Owner or Occupier to substantially repair the same, and in case of Neglect the Surveyor is hereby required, &c. That in all Places vvhere any Entrance shall be from any Turnpike Road to any Field, Garden, Yard, or other Land or Ground, or to any Building, such Entrance shall be properly ■covered with Stone, Gravel, or other hard Materials, by or at the Expence of the Proprietor or Occupier of such Field, Garden, Yard, Land, Ground, or Building, so that such Turnpike Road may not be injured by Carriages and Horses passing to and from the same by such Entrance. And whereas many Ditches and Watercourses which are not wanted for the Use of the adjoining Enclosures may be requisite for the Drainage of the Turnpike Road, and where that shall be the Case the Surveyor shall from Time to Time open, cleanse, and scour such Ditches, Watercourses, or Drains. (24.) Q 3 ( 127 ) Die Lunce, W Maii 1833. The Duke of RICHMOND in the Chair. JOHN MACNEILL Esquire is called in, and examined as follows : Evidence on Turnpike Road What is your Profession ? 1 rusts. A Civil Engineer. j ^~ ^ £^^, How have you been employed ? Since i8i6 I have been employed practically in laying out Roads, and other engineering Works, but principally in Roads. Have you had much Experience in Road Works ? I have had a great deal of Experience, and have been in the habit of making and laying out and constructing Roads in various Parts of the Country. Are you acquainted with what is called Mr. Telford's System of Road-making ? I have been acquainted with it practically for the last Six or Seven Years. In what does that differ from the common Method of Road-making ? The great Feature consists in forming solid Masses of rough Pavement upon the Sub-soil, over which broken Stones are placed. What Advantage does it possess over the common Methods? There are Two or Three Advantages ; the principal one is, it forms a very solid substantial Mass, and, from the Experiments we have made, there is less Wear of Material upon it, particularly in the first Formation of the Road, than in the common Method of Road-making, in which the broken Stone is placed upon the Soil to a certain Depth, for Four or Five or Six Inches ; the Carriages are then drawn over it, and the broken Stone mixes with the Sub-soil to a certain Extent before a permanent Bottoming can be formed ; the raking in of the Ruts, and the working of the Carriages over it, produces a conglomerate Mass of broken Stone and Mud ; after this takes place there is more broken Stone put on, and after Two or Three Years, according to the Traffic over it, and the Nature of the Soil, it becomes, with proper Management, a good Road. In the Cases of Mr. Telford's Roads, the Sub-soil cannot mix with the broken Stone, and the Thickness of the broken Stone may be less than when used in the common Way. Another great Advantage is, that the rough Pavement forms a Sort of French Shoring or Drainage for the Road, and it allows any Water that may be in the Sub-soil, to go off to the Sides, and also the Rain Water, that percolates through the broken Stone, to get off by the Side Drains. Is it more expensive ? In some Cases it is not so expensive as the common Method. Where the District consists of hard Stones, such as Quartz, Granite, or Basaltic Rocks, it is a cheaper Method, for the Stone has not to be broken. I am now constructing a Road in Worcestershire, to avoid the Lickey Hills, on the Road from Birmingham to Broms- grove ; and in that Neighbourhood the Country is formed of Quartz Rocks ; there we have found it cheaper to put in a Sub-pavement of Rubble Stone, Seven Inches thick in the Centre of the Road, and Four at the Sides, than to break it, the Sub- pavement being afterwards covered with Four Inches of broken Stone. Do you cement the Rubble Stone ? I should prefer to cement it if I had the Means to do it ; I think it would be cheaper at the End of a few Years ; but there has been no Instance of its being yet done, that I am aware of, though I have recommended it in One or Two Instances. (24.) Q 4 Have 128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE ./. MacneillEsq. Have you made any Experiments in Carriages, so as to be enabled to state what Description of Axle and Wheel is the best ? I have made a good many Experiments, and so far as I have made them I am quite satisfied that the Rules and Formula which are at present laid down with respect to Carriage Wheels and Axles are at variance with the practical Results which I have found ; but I have not been enabled to extend my Experiments to such a Length, or to vary them as I could have wished, so as to enable me to state them with Confidence ; for to make a proper Set of Experiments would be attended with more Expence than would be convenient for me to incur. But this far I am enabled to state, that a very great Advantage arises from cylindrical Axles, perfectly straight and upright Wheels. Why are the cylindrical Wheels better for the Roads ? There is no dragging, or what is technically called surging ; all Points of the Rim of the Wheel passes over the Road with equal Velocity. In a conical Wheel there is always a rubbing ; as it is of different Diameters it cannot pass over the same Surface in the same Time, and therefore there must be a rubbing of the Wheel against the Road Surface. How is the Draught of Carriages affected by Springs ? The Draught of Carriages is lessened very much indeed by the Action of Springs. If the Springs are very elastic in the vertical Directions they allow the Wheels and that Part of the Carriage which is attached to the Wheels to pass over an Obstacle, for instance a Stone of Two Inches high, without being obliged to raise the whole Mass of the Carriage, that is, the Body of the Carriage and the Weight in it, over that Height ; but if the Springs have much lateral Motion they impede the Draught by destroying or at least by doing away with Part of the Momentum which is in the Body of the Carriage. What is the greatest Effect you have seen produced by Horses ? The greatest Effects produced by Horses on Turnpike Roads, as far as I am acquainted, are in Ireland and in Scotland, where the Horses employed in common Carts, as in the Neighbourhood of Glasgow, draw about Twenty-five Hundred Weight. Including the Cart ? No ; the net Weight. In Ireland the Horses employed to draw Linen and various other Things from Belfast to Dublin usually draw Thirty Hundred effective Weight ; and on some Parts of that Road the Rates of Acclivity are as much as One in Fifteen. To what do you attribute this ? I think the principal Cause is from the Roads being much harder. A much harder Material is used in the Formation of them, and there is also less Traffic than on the Roads of England, and they are therefore not repaired so frequently ; for the constant laying-on of broken Stone or Gravel very much diminishes the effective Power of Horses, and the Result may probably arise from a Want of the System not being introduced here of using the same light Carts ; for the Carts that draw Thirty Hundred from Belfast to Dublin seldom weigh above Seven or Eight Hundred, and the common Weight of a Cart in this Country is probably from Sixteen to Seventeen Hundred^ sometimes more ; the Wheels being much heavier than is necessary, sometimes weighing 600 lbs. What is the Breadth of the Wheels ? Four Inches on the Tire. Where is that ? In Scotland and the Northern Parts of Ireland. Have you made any Experiments as to the Resistance to the Draught of Carriage on the different Road Surfaces ? Yes, I have. What Surfaces have you found the best ? I have found Granite in wet Weather the best, and in dry Weather Limestone is the best, and the smoothest Surface ; Gravel is in every Case very imperfect. I have tried the Surface of the Road from London to Shrewsbury, and the Results of those Experiments are detailed in a Report of the Parliamentary Commissioners of the Holyhead and Liverpool Roads — (the Seventh Report). Does ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 129 Does the Draught increase with the increased Velocity on the same Road ? J. Macneill Esq. It does. The Ratio of the Increase of Resistance is a very intricate Subject ; and from a great Number of Experiments that I have made I think I have found out the Law of Resistance. I have put the Statement on Paper, because it contains a Mathematical Formula that perhaps would not be easily expressed. The Paper is put in and read, and is as follows : By a considerable Number of Experiments with the same Waggon on Roads of different kmds, the Draught was found to agree very nearly with the Results calculated from the Empyncal Formula. p = w:Ji^ + 2^ +C.V. 93 40 In which "W = the Weight of the Waggon. w = the Load. C = a constant Number, which will depend on the Surface over which the Waggon is drawn ; and, V = the Velocity in Feet per Second. By putting V = 3.7, which was the Velocity used in the Experiments, the constant Number C was" found to be equal to 2 for a Timber Surface. For othes Surfaces the Value of C may be taken as follows : On a paved Road — 2. On a well-made broken Stone Road in a dry State = 5. On the same Road, covered with Dust = 8.' On the same Road, wet, and covered with Mud r: 10. On a Gravel or Flint Road when wet =13. On the same, very wet, and covered with Mud = 32. On an inclined Plane the above Formula becomes p — W'^ + w , w , (-. Y ± h. W + w , for a Common Stage Waggon ; and 93 40 • ' 1 i p _ W^ + w ,];;[_, c y ± h . W^ + w , for a Stage Coach. 100 40 ' ' T I You have constructed an Instrument for ascertaining the Power required to draw Carriages over different Roads ? Yes, Have you a Description of it ? I have. The Witness delivers in the same, which is read, and is as follows : Desckiption of J. Macneill's Instrument for ascertaining the State of Roads. This Instrument, which is placed in a Phaeton or small Carriage mounted on Four Wheels, consists of various working Parts placed in a Wrought-iron Frame of a triangular Shape ; this Frame is firmly screwed to the Body of the Carriage under the Front Seat, so that all the Apparatus is hid and covered except the Dial, which is plsced nearly in the Centre, and on a Level with the Front Seat of the Carriage. This Dial is about Twelve Inches in Diameter, and carries on its Face Four smaller Dials, each of which is about Three Inches in Diameter. One of these Dials shows, by means of Two Indices, the Distance run in Miles, Furlongs, and Yards ; and it also points out the proper Intervals for noting the Draught or Resistance of the Carriage. Another of the smaller Dials points out, by means of One Index, whether the Road is ascending or descending, and the Rate of Acclivity or Declivity of the Road. The other Two Dials mark the Time and magetic Bearing of the Road. A Fifth Dial, which is not yet completed, will show at once the Velocity with which the Carriage moves at every Second of Time, without calculating it from the Time and Distance, as at present, which, besides the Trouble and Uncertainty always attending hasty Calculations, is subject to a much greater Inconvenience — that of being obliged to run over a certain Space before the Velocity with which it has been passed over can be ascertained. This latter Contrivance is distinct from the other Parts of the Instrument, and will probably be found useful in other Machines, and especially in Mai! Coaches and Public Carriages ; as the Guard or Driver, by merely looking at the Dial, which need not be larger than a common Watch, and can be placed- on any Part of the Carriage, will be enabled to see at once the Velocity with which the Carriage moves. Besides these smaller Dials, the large one carries on its Centre the principal Index, which points out on the Divisions near the Circumference the Weights or Power required to draw the Carriage. The animal Power is communicated to the Carriage directly, through the Instrument, without acting on any other Part of the Carriage, by means of a Series of Chains and Cranks (24.) R which 130 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE* J. Miicneill Esq. which connect the Traces with a Lever acting on the Spring of the Instrument ; and as the Spring elongates it acts by Rack-work on a Pinion which gives Motion to the vertical Axis or Spindle that carries the Index. On my applying the Weighing Machine in its simplest Form to measure the Draught of ^ Carriages, I found that the Index vibrated so quickly, and over so large an Arc of the Circle, that it was impossible to observe the Point indicating the Force of Draught ; for a Horse exerts his Power by a Succession of Impulses or Strokes of his Shoulder against the Collar at every Step he makes, and not by a constant uniform Pull, as is generally supposed. To remedy this Inconvenience, and do away with the Vibrations, I applied a Piston working in a Cylinder full of Oil, and connected with the Dynamometer in such a Manner that, when any Power or Force is applied to it so as to carry round the Index, the Piston is at the same Time moved through the Fluid. The Connexion of the Dynamometer with the Cylinder is by means of a Lever working on a Pivot. The Arms of the Lever are of unequal Length ; the Tail-piece of the Dynamometer is connected with the short Arm at the Distance of Two • Inches from the Centre or Fulcrum by means of a Pivot-joint. At precisely the same Distance from the Fulcrum a flat Bar of Iron is connected with the longer Arm, by a Joint similar to that by which the Tail-piece is connected with the short Arm, so that any Power or Weight applied to the Bar will produce the same Effect on the Index as if the Power was directly applied to the Tail-piece of the Dynamometer. This Bur passes over a Friction Roller, and to it the Power of the Horses is applied when in use by means of Traces and a Bar, as in the ordinary Mode of Draught. At the Extremity of the long Arm the Piston Rod is connected by a Joint similar to the others ; the Piston Rod, after passing through a Stuffing Box in the Cap of the Cylinder, is screwed into a Piston or circular Plate of thin Brass, perforated with small Holes, and out of one Part of the Circumference a square Notch is cut, the Use of which will be hereafter described. By this Construction the Resistance of the Fluid to the Piston, which acts at the Extremity of the long Arm of the Lever, prevents its turning round the Fulcrum to the Extent it otherwise would do when it is acted upon by any sudden Impulse applied to the Bar ; it will, however, move over a Space proportional to the Intensity of the Force applied, and if the Pulls follow each other in rapid Succession, the Piston will move slowly out, and the Index will turn round steadily and uniformly until the Power is balanced by the Spring of the Dynamometer, at which Time the Index will point out on the Dial very nearly the Weight or Power which is equivalent to the Draught. The Divisions on the Dial Plate of the Dynamometer decrease from Zero upwards, in order to compensate for the increased Force which the Spring exerts in proportion as it is wound up. In consequence of this, the Index does not pass over equal Spaces when equal Forces are applied in different States of Tension of the Spring ; the Piston, therefore, will not pass through equal Spaces in the Cylinder; and the Vibrations Avould consequently be greater in the higher Numbers, because the Velocity of the Piston being less, its Resistance through the Fluid will be less, at the same time the Power opposed to it is greater. To obviate this, and make the Index equally steady on all Parts of the Dial, a narrow Slip of Bra«s, formed into an inclined Plane, is soldered to the Inside of the Cylinder, parallel to its Axis, the largest Part being at that End of the Cylinder towards which the Piston rises when the Index moves towards the greater Power. The Notch, which was before mentioned as cut in the Side of the Piston, exactly cor- responds in Size with the largest Part of this inclined Plane, so that when the Piston is at the upper End of the Cylinder, the Notch is completely filled up by the inclined Plane. On the contrary, when the Piston is at the lower End of the Cylinder the Notch is open. By this Contrivance the Aperture through which the Fluid is obliged to pass as the Piston moves from the lower End of the Cylinder to the higher is gradually contracted, and of course the Resistance of the Piston through the Fluid gradually increases, and compensates the increased Power of the Spring, rendering the Vibrations nearly uniform from the lowest to the highest Power. This Compensation is analogous to that by which the Fusee regulates and gives uniform Power to the Main Spring of a Watch. The Vibrations of the Index are thus com- pletely checked and regulated, so that the total Amount of the Increments of Power acting on the Carriage, through the Agency of the Instrument, can be accurately determined. As a Proof of this, it will be sufficient to refer to the Result of the Experiment at which his Grace the Duke of Richmond and Sir Henry Parnell were present. The Revolutions of the Hind Wheel are communicated by means of Bevel Gearing to the Perambulator or Dial, which marks the Distance run by the Carriage ; and by a similar sort of Mechanism the Velocity of the Carriage will be determined. The Index which points out the Rates of Acclivity of the Road is acted upon by a Pendulum, by means of a circular Segment of Rack-work working on a Pinion. The Vibrations of the Pendulum are checked by a Piston working in a Cylinder full of Oil, in a Manner very similar to that which regulates the Index of the Dynamometer. In both Cases the Cylinders move on Trunnions to permit the free Motion of the Piston Rods, without which, or that of the more complicated Machinery of parallel Motion, they would not act. This Instrument is capable of being applied to several very important Purposes in Rogd Engineering, amongst which are the following : First, It affords the Means of ascertaining the exact Power required to draw a Carriage over any Line of Road. Secondly^ ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 131 Secondly, It can. be applied to compare one Line of Road with another, so as to determine J. Macncill Esq. which is best, and the exact Amount of the DiiFerence as regards Horse Power, both for slow — ^ and fast Coaches. Thirdly, The comparative Value of Road Surfaces may be determined with great Exactness. . Fourthly, It affords the Means of keeping a Registry, in a most accurate Manner, from Year to Year, of the State of a Road, showing its Improvement or Deterioration, and the exact Parts in which such Improvement or Deterioration has taken place. Practical Examples explanatory of the foregoing Statement : I St. Let it be required to determine the Expence of working a Four-horse Coach over the Line of Road from to , at a Velocity of Ten Miles an Hour. Sup- pose the Instrument has been run over the Road, and that it has been found that the Average Power required to draw a Four-horse Coach over the whole Line amounts to 350 lbs,, and the Distance equal to Twelve Miles. Let the Average Power which a Horse should exert for Eight Miles a Day, with a Velocity of Ten Miles an Hour, be assumed equal to Sixty Pounds ; then 60 X 8 = 480 lbs. raised One Mile in the Day, and taking the daily Expence of a Horse equal to 6s., we have 480 lbs. : 6s.:: i lb. : .15, the Expence of Horse Power exerting a Force of I lb. over One Mile. Thence 350 x .15 x la Miles=:63o Pence, or 3/. izs. 6d. the Expence of Horse Power required to work a Four-horse Coach over such Road. ad. Suppose it be req,uired to determine whether it is more expensive to work a Coach over the Stage from A to B, or over the Stage from C to D, both Stages being exactly Ten Miles, and Horse-keep the same in both Districts. Let the Instrument be run over both Stages, and' the Average Power thus determined to be a8o lbs. on the Stage from A to B, and 320 lbs. on the Stage from C to D. The Difference is 330 — 280 =40 lbs., and this Difference will amount to 40 X 10 x .15=55. in Horse Power in favour of the Stage from A to B. Again, suppose the Stage from A to B, which is Ten Miles in Length, to be compared with the Stage from E to F, which is only Eight Miles in Length, but more hilly, or having a worse Surface. Let the Instrument be run over each Stage as before, and suppose the Average Power from E to F to be found equal to 500 lbs., whilst the Average Power over the Stage from A to B is only 3 20 lbs. As this Stage is Ten Miles in length, the Expence of working over it will be 330X lox. 15 = 576 Pence, and the Expence over the Stage from E to F will be 500 x8 X . 15=1600 Pence, from which it will be seen that less Expence will be required to draw the Carriage from A to B than from E to F, although the Distance from E to F is Two Miles shorter than from A to B, and that the Difference of Expence will be 600—576 = 34 Pence, or ns. per Day for a Four-horse Coach. 3d. Suppose it be required to determine the best Surface on different Parts of a Road which has been constructed on different Principles, or repaired with different Descriptions of Road Materials. Let the Instrument be run over each Portion of the Road, and the Average Power noted ; also the Rates of Inclination, as shown by the Instrument or a Spirit Level ; then reduce the Average Draught over each Rate of Acclivity to what it would be if it was horizontal. The Comparison of the corrected Draughts will show the Friction arising from the Surface in each Case : thus, suppose the Average Draught over a Portion of the Road which has been repaired with Gravel, and which rises i in 20, to be 350 lbs., the Correction for I in 30 is 39.2 lbs. The Friction of the Surface and Axles is therefore 250 — 39.3 or 210.8 lbs. In the same Way, suppose the Draught over another Portion of the Road which rises i in 10, but which has been repaired with Granite, is found to be 260 lbs. The Correction for I in 10 is 78.4 lbs., therefore the Friction of the Surface, or what it would be if it was hori- zontal, would be 260— 78.4, or 181.6 lbs. only; the Difference between this and the Gravel Surface will therefore be 210.8— 181.6, or 29.3 lbs,, which is equal to a Saving of ^^d. for e^very Horse drawing over a Mile of such R oad compared with the other. 4th. The most important and useful Application of the Instrument is perhaps that of being able to ascertain, with Accuracy and Precision, the State of any Road from Time to Time as regards its Surface, and the State of Repair in which it has been kept. The following Table or Yearly Registry of a Quarter of a Mile of Road will show this more clearly. The Numbers in the Column represent the Draught or Horse Power taken at every Ten Yards. Thus, in the First Column of the Year 1829 the Draughts were in Summer 20, 30, 25, &c., andMn the Second or Winter Column of the same Year the corresponding Draughts on the same identical Part of the Road are found to be 35,35, 30, &c. Tbese Columns, added up and divided by the Number of Observations, give 44.5 lbs. for the mean Summer Draught, and 49,45 lbs. for the mean Winter Draught over this Quarter of a Mile. By following the same Process in the following Year, viz. 1830, the mean Summer Draught was found to be 35.6 lbs., and the mean Wiriter Draught 40.36 lbs,, showing that the Road has been improved in the Course of the Year very considerably ; and by a Reference to the Numbers in the Columns on the same horizoiital Lines with each other, it will be found the Improvement has been general throughout the whole Distance. In the next Year, 1831, it will be seen that the Average Power in Summer is 40.53 lbs., and in Winter 46.5 lbs., which shows the Road is not so good as it was in the preceding Year, I Sao, but better than it was in the first Year, 1839. Again, in the Year 1832 it is found that the Average Summer Draught is 53.6 lbs., and the Wmter Draught. 63.18 lbs. By comparing these Numbers with any of the preceding Years it will at once be evident that the Road has become worse ; and by a Reference to the Figures in the Column it will be seen that it is defective in every Part as compared with the preceding Years, but more especially (€4.) R 2 s° 132 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE J. Macneill Esq. so near the End, where the Draught in Summer varies from 60 to 85 lbs., and in Winter — from 75 to 95 lbs., whereas in 1830, Two Years before, the Draught in Summer over the same Part of the Road varied from 35 to 38 lbs. only, and in Winter from 40 to 46 lbs. The Instrument therefore shows, not only that the Road has been getting generally worse, but it points out the particular Parts, and the exact Amount of Deterioration, and the exact Part .of the Road where such Deterioration has taken place. The public Advantages to be derived from such a System of Road Inspection would probably be very great. It would show not only where the best Plan of repairing Roads has been followed, and point out where there are good and bad Surveyors, but it would also show if the Money of the Trust is improperly applied or wasted on any Line of Road ; and it will enable Trustees, who let the Repairs of their Roads by Contract, to determine whether or not the Contractors have done their Duty, and kept the Road in the same State of Repair as at first, or whether they had improved it, or suffered it to become defective. There are many other Uses to which the Instrument may be applied, but the foregoing are the principal ones. Specimen of the Manner in which it is proposed to keep a Registry or Journal of the State of Repairs of any Road. From London to • First Quarter of First Mile. 1829, 1830. 1831. 1832. 1833. 1834. Distance. Suminer. Winter. Summer. Winter. Summer. Winter. Summer. Winter. Summer. Winter. Summer, Winter. 10 20 36 15 30 15 32 25 40 20 30 35 25 30 27 32 35 35 30 25 30 20 26 22 28 30 40 40 28 33 21 28 24 30 35 50 50 29 33 22 28 26 30 40 60' 60 35 39 26 29 30 35 45 55 70 30 35 22 25 24 27 35 45 80 30 36 23 26 25 28 40 50 90 35 40 25 35 27 37 40 55 100 40 43 30 36 32 38 45 55 110 45 46 35 38 37 40 50 65 120 50 55 40 45 42 47 ■ 60 75 130 50 54 40 44 42 46 70 75 140 50 55 40 46 42 48 55 70 150 55 58 50 48 52 50 60 56 160 52 56 43 41 • 45 45 55 70 170 50 54 40 45 42 48 60 75 180 51 55 46 45 48 47 60 68 190 53 58 45 46 47 48 65 70 - 200 55 60 50 52 52 55 65 75 210 56 60 50 55 52 58 65 75 220 55 60 45 55 50 60 65 65 - 230 50 55 45 40 48 45 60 75 240 50 55 45 35 47 37 55 60 250 48 50 38 40 40 44 50 65 260 45 50 35 40 38 45 55 50 270 40 45 30 40 35 45 45 60 280 40 45 36 40 40 45 50 60 290 40 45 35 35 38 40 55 60 300 46 50 36 40 40 44 50 65 310 44 50 32 45 40 45 55 60 320 43 48 31 45 35 50 50 60 330 42 50 30 40 35 45 55 60 340 40 46 30 40 35 45 50 56 350 45 49 38 45 40 50 46 65 360 50 55 40 45 45 50 55 70 370 50 56 40 46 45 50 55 70 380 51 58 40 48 44 49 60 65 390 52 58 46 48 50 55 50 70 400 53 56 40 46 45 55 60 75 410 50 55 35 45 50 60 60 85 420 50 54 36 40 50 70 80 90 430 55 58 38 40 60 80 80") 85 J 95 440 Total - Horse Power 50 58 33 40 80 88 1,958 2,176 1.567 1,776 1,783 2,046 2,361 2,780 44.5 49.45 35,6 40.36 40.52 46.5 53.6 63,18 ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 133 For the Purpose of ascertaining the Draught up different Hills with different Velocities, -he Instrument was attached to a common Stage Coach, which weighed i8 Cwt., exclusive of Seven Passengers. Stations were marked out on different Parts of the Road, of which the Inclinations and Lengths were accurately determined, and the Time of passing over each was ascertained by means of a Stop Watch. The Results of these Experiments are detailed in the following Table. The First Column contains the Number of each Experiment ; the Second, the Rate of Inclination of the Hill ; the Third, the Number of Observations made on each ; the fourth, the Length of the Hill or inclined Plane, in Feet; the Fifth, the Number of Seconds in which the Carriage was drawn up the Hill ; the Sixth, the corresponding Velocity in Feet per Second ; the Seventh, the Velocity in Miles per Hour, calculated to the nearest Quarter ; and the Eighth Column contains the corresponding Draughts or Force applied, in Pounds. Thus, in the first Line of the first Experiment where the Inclination of the Hill was One in Fifteen and a Half, and the Velocity Three Miles and a Half per Hour, the Draught was 271 lbs. ; and when the Velocity was increased to Twelve Miles per Hour, as shown in the fourth Line of the same Experiment, the Draught was increased from 271 lbs. to 325 lbs. The Part of the Road selected for these Trials was of an uniform Surface, the Resistance of which was previously ascertained ; and although the Velocities are not so varied nor so high as might be wished, yet several Conclusions may be drawn from these Experiments of considerable Im- portance to Road Engineering, one of which is, that the Draught of a Stage Coach on a common Turnpike Road increases in a less Ratio than the Velocity increases, and not as the Square of the Velocity, which many Persons have supposed. From this it appears that the Velocity of a Steam Carriage on a Railroad, and the Velocity of a Stage Coach on a good Turnpike Road, are governed by nearly the same Laws of Motion, and that whatever Advan- tage may be gained by a quick Transport of Passengers by means of a Steam Coach on the former, may also probably be attained by the same Means on a well-made Turnpike Road. J. Maaieill Esq. 1. No. of Experiments. 2. Rates of Inclination. 3. No. of Observations. 4. Distance in Feet. 5. Time in Seconds. 6. Velocity in Feet per Second. 7. Velocity in Miles per Hour. 8. Draught of Stage Coach in lbs. 1 One in 15§ 32 22 13 13 576 115 111 47 33 5.0 5.2 12.2 17.4 35 3- 8- 12 271 276 298 325 2 One in 1 9 48 17 24 32 741 178 82 80 66 4.1 90 9.3 11.2 2f 6 6| H 252 290 293 303 3 One in 20 35 34 16 22 750 136 126 81 76 5.5 5.9 9.2 9.8 3f 4 H 6f 253 263 272 280 4 One in 21i ]6 16 8 7 294 58 50 33 30 5.1 5.9 8.9 9.8 H 4 6 6| 237 245 258 264 5 One in 23 t 29 23 13 13 522 99 78 55 49 5.3 6.7 9.5 10.7 u 4 226 233 243 250 6 One in 23^ 45 22 18 1,032 189 127 88 83 5.5 8.1 11.7 12.4 3i 8§ 230 240 248 253 7 One in 26 Paved Bottom, Hartzhill Surface. ^ 16 20 13 12 387 69 68 42 28 5.6 5.7 9.2 13.8 8| 3| 9^ 200 202 215 223 8 One in 26| Not paved, Limestone Surface. 27 19 14 12 570 103 102 56 47 5.5 5.6 10.2 12.1 3| 3| 7 8i 221 220 230 236 9 One in 28 26 28 13 12 654 123 no 68 55 5.3 5.9 9.6 11.9 3i 4 197 204 211 218 R3 134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE 1. No. of Experiments. 2. Rates of Inclination. 3. No. of Observations. 4. Distance in Feet. 5. Time in Seconds. 6. Velocity in Feet per Second. 7. Velocity in Miles per Hour. 8. Draught of Stage Coach in lbs. 10 One in 30^ J5 12 9 6 300 58 52 30 23 5.2 5.8 10.0 13.0 3i 4 6^ 9 161 174 187 210 11 One in 33 38 15 17 15 711 129 90 80 55 5.8 7.9 8.9 12.9 4 5§ 6 8f 153 175 182 198 12 One in 34^ 30 11 10 13 534 95 65 55 43 5.6 8.2 12.4 3— 6i °2 186 196 200 214 Patches of new Stone not worked in nor consolidated. 13 One in 38| 19 18 13 10 384 68 65 41 30 5.6 5.9 9.4 12.8 3f 4 8| 146 150 167 170 Sub-pavement; Sur- fece Quartz Stone. 14 One in 39 16 J7 16 13 543 84 80 63 60 6.5 6.8 8.6 9.1 4| 5f , 6| 180 183 212 215 No Sub-pavement ; Eight Inches Lime- stone. 15 One in 57 21 12 13 10 552 ^1 85 66 39 5.7 6.5 8.3 14.1 3| 9§ 150 153 160 168 No Sub-pavement ; Quartz Stone Sur- face. 16 One in 63| 21 24 13 13 525 89 88 47 41 5.9 6.0 11.2 12.8 4 4 74 81 147 147 182 202 No Sub-pavement ; Six Inches of Limestone. n One in 118 18 26 11 17 603 107 91 60 50 5.6 6.6 10.0 12.1 3f 4i 8i 134 140 146 153 18 One in 137| 35 18 18 18 741 122 95 75 62 6.1 7.8 9.9 12.0 4? % 8? 133 136 140 150 ■ 19 One in 156 Rise. 44 25 20 22 861 161 130 85 61 5.4 6.6 10.1 14.1 7' 128 133 139 145 20 One in 156 Fall. 41 15 13 16 861 205 84 57 54 4.2 10.2 15.1 15.9 n 7 ]0| lOf 82 95 100 105 21 One in 245 Rise. 28 16 15 12 648 105 70 48 45 6.2 9.2 13.5 14.4 4| S n 125 128 131 138 22 One in 245 Fall. 39 , 22 23 11 648 114 103 75 47 5.7 6,3 8.6 13.8 4 6 91 96 100 107 117 23 One in 600 Rise. 42 25 20 23 993 108 103 72 65 9.2 9.7 13.8 15.3 6i 64 H lOi 112 114 122 130 24 One in 600 Rise. 993 177 147 100 64 5.6 6.8 10.0 15.5 104 100 110 115 127 /• ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 135 How is it used ? There are Two Persons employed to use it; one Person takes down the Draught as noted by the Instrument, which the other Calls out, as shown by the Index of the Instrument, at every Ten or at every Twenty Yards. Of what Use will it be ? I think it will be of very great Use, in showing the present State of the Public Roads of the Country, exactly as they now exist, and to determine with perfect Precision the Power required to draw a Carriage over them at every Ten or Twenty Yards ; and if tried in any future Period, it will show what Districts of Road are improving, how much they are improved or deteriorated, and the exact Parts where they are deteriorated or improved. Will it be expensive to employ it ? 1 think there may be Two Trials of a Road made during the Year for probably gs. or los. per Mile, including every Expence of Carriage, Horses, Instrument, and Assistants, as far as I have been able to ascertain it at present, allowing the Instru- ment to run Ten thousand Miles, which I calculate it would do if used properly. This Sum also includes the making out the Plans and Statements. How often would you recommend its being used? I should think once in the Winter and once in the Summer Months would be quite sufficient ; probably in some Cases where the Traffick is very considerable, and the Surface undergoing constant Repair, oftener than that would be advisable ; but twice a Year would be quite sufficient to enable a Register to be kept of the State of a Road with great Accuracy. Have you used it, and if so, where ? I have used it once from Birmingham to London, and also once or twice in the Neighbourhood of London, with different scientific Gentlemen, who witnessed its Operadon. , Are you acquainted with the general Management of Turnpike Road Trusts ? I have been a good deal acquainted with them formerly. Is there any Alteration you would recommend in the general Management of Turnpike Road Trusts ? I am inclined to think that the Surveyor of Roads should not in any Instance have the Payment of the Men, I have known a great many Cases where I suspected there was' something wrong, though I could not absolutely say it was so. A Surveyor may return Men's Time when they are not at work ; and in One Instance, on the Daventry Trust, there was a considerable Loss sustained some Years ago ; it was before I was employed on the Holyhead Road, so that I cani>ot speak from my own Knowledge of it ; but, from what I have heard, there was a considerable Loss sustained in consequence of the Surveyor not paying the Bills, for which he gave in Receipts, as if the Money had been paid ; the Consequence was, the Trustees appointed a Clerk, who now goes along the Line of Road every Saturday Night, with his Pay List from the Surveyor, containing the Number of Men and their Names, and where they had been employed, and he pays the Money to the Men individually themselves, and takes the Receipt for the Week's Wages, so that no Money passes through the Hands of the Surveyor. In men- tioning this Circumstance, I do not wish to throw the slightest Imputation against the present Surveyor of that Road, who I believe to be as honest and conscientious a Man as any in existence ; but merely to show what may take place in other Cases. What better Security had you for the Honesty of the Pay Cleric than you would have for that of the Surveyor ? To commit any such Fraud there must be Two Persons concerned in it. There is another Thing I should beg leave to suggest, which is, that a great deal of Time is mis-spent by Trusts meeting for any Purpose, when probably the next Meeting a different Set of Gentlemen would attend, and the whole of the former Pro- ^cfiedings are sometimes altered or done away with, and the original Intention changed ; and sometimes a proposed new Work assumes quite a different Feature , from the first proposed limprovement or Alteration. I think, if there was a Committee of the Trusts, say Five or Seven appointed out of every Trust, and changed annually, for overseeing the working Part, and to meet every Two (24. R"4 or JiMacneill Esq. 136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE J. Manieill Esq. or Three Months, that would have a very beneficial Result upon the State of the Roads. There is another Thing which I think deserving of Consideration. The Surveyor should not, in my Opinion, be appointed by the Trustees, if it is possible to avoid it, for in some Cases they are afraid, and cannot, in fact, do their Duty ; as, for instance, when good Road Material is to be found in the Limits of some Trusts, I have known some Cases where the Surveyor could not use it. What Power would you leave in the Hands of the Trustees ? I think they should have the Management of the Roads as much as possible, as at present, but not to have the Appointment of Surveyor — not to have so great a Control over the Surveyor ; I think in many Instances the Surveyor cannot do his Duty. What Powers would you leave to the Trustees, not placed upon the Committee which you have proposed ? They would have the Power of coming in annually as Directors of the Road ; out of their Number the Committee should be appointed. Do you mean, that this Committee should have the actual Management of the Road, and should report at the Annual Meetings ? Yes, for that Year ; and I think the Committee should be appointed by the General Meeting of Trustees. You would not take away from the General Meeting the Power of auditing the Accounts ? Certainly not. Do you propose to place in the Hands of that Committee any Power over the Surveyor ? I think there should be some Power, but I am not prepared to say what that ought to be ; it is certainly an Objection, and it would not be pleasant for Gentle- men to have those acting under them whom they could not direct in certain Measures. In point of fact, have they any Power over the Surveyor but that of Appoint- ment and Dismissal ? I think they can exercise a good deal of local Interest in many Cases- Have they any Power over the Surveyor but that of Appointment and Dismissal ? I am not aware that they have by Law ; but they have an Influence, which is employed in many Instances very improperly. Then in whose Hands would you place the Appointment of a Surveyor ? That I cannot give any Opinion on at present. Have you ever turned your Attention to the Expediency of a general Consolida- tion of Trusts ? I think it would have a very beneficial Effect, more so. than any thing that has taken place in this Country for many Years ; I am convinced there is a great deal of Money wasted and lost in this Country from bad Road Management. Woul-d you place the Superintendence of that Consolidation under any General Board, or would you divide the Country into separate Districts ? I think there should be One General Board in London, as having the Govern- ment over all the Roads ; but they, of course, must have District Branches ; the Quantity of Roads in England would, I think, be found too great for One, unless they had different Branches in the Country. From what Class of Individuals would you form these District Branches ? I should think Commissioners appointed in the different Circuits, or some other Divisions of the Country. Commissioners, appointed by whom ? I should suppose by Government ; but of this I can give no Opinion. Do you conceive any Statute Duty could be performed on Turnpike Roads if such Statute Duty were to be prescribed by Commissioners appointed by the Government? I much doubt if any good Result arises from it ; I have never seen any good Work performed when it was done by Statute Duty, or by employing the Poor to do it. 13 Do ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 137 Do you believe the Turnpike Roads in England receive much Advantage from j. Macneill Esq. the Statute Duty performed upon them ? I do not think they do. Do you think there would be any great Objection to relieving the Parishes entirely from it ? I think it would be a great Benefit to the Roads if it were so done. Are there many Districts of Turnpike Roads in your Experience where the Funds are not sufficient to support the Roads without the Assistance of Statute Duty ? I do not know any one Instance in my Experience where the Funds would be insufficient if properly managed. In fact, I look upon the Statute Duties as of no Use at all. Do you know of any Roads where the Statute Duty is employed for the Purpose of keeping the Roads in repair ? Yes, many. It is not a heavy Burthen ? I think it is, and causes a great Waste of Time to the Surveyor, in looking after the Farmers, and in forcing them to do their Team Duty. Are you aware that there is any other Statute Duty you can enforce except a Composition in Money ? Sometimes in Money. Are you aware that the Statute Duty by Team is the only Duty you can enforce ? The Farmers send Teams and Drivers ; sotnetimes the Surveyors find the Drivers. I do not know whether it is I^aw or not. Then it does not occur to you that there are any Turnpike Roads in the more distant Parts from London ^— on the Line of Road from London to Holyhead — where Statute Duty is necessary ? I do not think it is at all necessary, as far as I am acquainted ; I mean as far 9s Shrewsbury. Beyond Shrewsbury ? I am not professionally acquainted with the Road beyond Shrewsbury. The Witness then puts in the following Paper, which is read : Experiments made in presence of his Grace the Duke of Richmond and Sir Henry Parnell, with " Mr. Maoneill's Road Indicator," or Instrument for ascertaining the Force necessary to draw a Carriage over different kinds of Roads and Pavements, and consequently the actual Condition of the Road, i8th May 1833. ist Trial. 34 lbs. ad Trial. 30 lbs. 38 34 31 38 3<5 39 37 40 36 4t 38 36 37 31 39 39 40 32 39 31 31 37 29 30 ay 30 26 28 22. 34 33 ^° 14 15 18 20 u 20 ao aa 22)670(30,454 lbs. 22)664(30,181 lbs. 66 ^A_ 100 40 88 22 120 no 180 176 (24.) 100 40 ^, S The 138 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE J. Macntill Esq. The Place of Trial was in the Regent's Park, and the Space passed over during each Expe- riment was 220 Yards of Gravel Road. The average Draught in the first Experiment was 30,454lbs., that in the second Trial was 30,181 lbs., making a Difference of .373 lb., or little more than ^ lb. in the Distance of One Furlong, which shows the Accuracy with which the Instrument works, and consequently with what Precision the State or Condition of any Road may be determined by it. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Joseph Pitt Esq. JOSEPH PITT Esquire is called in, and examined as follows : Can you give any Information respecting the Minty and Crudwell Road, being the Third District of the Cirencester Trust ? I thought it best to put into Writing that which I know upon the Subject ; I thought it would save the Committee some Trouble by so doing. If the Committee think proper I will put it in as my Evidence ; and if it requires further Confirmation I shall be ready to give it. It is as follows : In the Year 1807 I purchased Eastcourt, but not with any Intention to reside there. I had resolved to build a House, &c. for my Residence at Brimpsfield, and commenced digging out the Foundations, &c. About this Time, and subsequently, I was consulted by several Persons having Estates at Ashton Keynes as to the obtaining an Act of Parliament for making a Turnpike Road from Cirencester to Woottort Bassett, which was to pass through Ashton Keynes, and not very far from Minty and Eastcourt, in both of which Places I had considerable Landed Property ; and it appeared to me desirable, as well in regard to my own Convenience as that of Persons residing in or having Communication with Minty and Eastcourt, to take that Opportunity of having Clauses introduced into the Act for making a Branch Road from the Malmesburyand Cirencester Turnpike Road, near Crudwell Church, along the then public Highway or Parish Road, through the Parishes of Crudwell (Eastcourt being a Tithing therein) and Minty, until it communicated with the Turnpike Road from Cricklade to Malmesbury at or near Minty Common. In respect to that Part of the intended Road which was to pass through Ashton Keynes there were Subscriptions to the Amount of 1,300/., viz. By Mr. Nicholas - - - - .^500 Mr. M. M. Bennett - - - 200 Mr. Maskelyne - - - - 200 Mr. Chapperlin - - - - 100 And myself - - - - 300 .sf 1,300 Mortgages of the Tolls were to have been made to those Parties for securing the Payment of the above-mentioned Sums to them respectively, with Interest • but such Mortgages have not yet been made. I'he Expence of obtaining the Act of Parliament was very near 700/., of which I contributed 200/. on account of the Branch Road being included therein, and the Remainder I paid, and it forms Part of my present Demand in respect of the Road through Ashton Keynes. A considerable Part of the old Parish Road or Highway through Eastcourt was very deep, and frequently under Water, and in the Winter totally impassable for Carriages or Horse } and in converting it into Part of the Branch Road, and in the Erection of a Toll House, and (in part) for Turnpike Gates at Eastcourt, I expended, up to the 20th July i&ii, the Sum of 1,150/. gs. 5^., and in 1812 the further Sum of 42/. 12s. gd., making together the Sum of 1,193/. 2x. 2d., exclusive of a considerable Sum which I paid for digging Stone from my own Quarries, and Timber of my own, used in making Gates, &c. &c. When that Part of the Branch Road which is in the Parish of Minty was made I gave to the Surveyors of the Highways there an immense Quantity of Flints of very considerable Value, and which now form the Foundation of that Part of the Road. The Act of Parliament authorized the taking of Tolls — for every Horse drawing a Carriage, 6d. -^ for every single Horse not drawing, 2d., &c. &c. j but not more than Half those Tolls has been taken. There are Two Turnpike Gates on the S ' Branch ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 139 Branch Road, viz. one at Eastcourt, and the other at Minty ; but Toll paid at either Joseph PM Esq. of them frees the other. 1 cannot state when Tolls began to be collected at the Eastcourt Gate, but pre- vious to Michaelmas 1813, 35/. 15^. 6d. was accounted for to me. The Turnpike Gates at Minty were not erected 'till late in 1817, and the first Money that came into my Hands for Tolls taken there was 7/. Ss. in July 181 8. The Ashton Keynes Trust has, I believe, been conducted according to the General and Private Acts, probably because there were several Persons who were Creditors upon it ; and so would have been that of the Branch Road, but I have been and am the only Creditor, and no other Person has the least Interest in it. The net Income arising from the Tolls on the Branch Road, on the Average of Years from Michaelmas 1813, has not exceeded 40/. per Annum, in which I include loL per Annum, for which I have always considered myself Debtor to the Road in respect to the passing of myself and Family through the Eastcourt Gate. With respect to the Expence and the Account generally, I have the Steward . here, who, since the Death of the former Steward, has officiated for me ; if you wish that he should be examined as to the Correctness of the Accounts as to the Receipts and Payments, he is ready to do so. When was this Road first commenced — the Branch Road ? About the same Time as the other was. Who appointed the Toll Keeper at the present Gate upon the Minty District ? I have appointed him. Who repaired the old Road previous to its being made a Turnpike Road ? In the usual Way, by the Parish ; the Occupiers of Land within the respective Parishes, and the Districts through which the Road went. Under the Highway Act ? Yes ; the Tithing of Eastcourt is in the Parish of Crudwell ; but Eastcourt keeps in repair the Roads within that District. It was not repaired before by the Land Owners, Ratione Tenurae ? No J it was a Tax on a general Highway ; in fact, the whole Tithing is mine — the whole Part of it ; therefore, it comes in fact out of my own Pocket. Does the whole Branch Road run through the Tithing ? No ; a great Part of it does ; but it goes through the Parish of Minty ; this is also a great Part of it mine. Have the Accounts of the Branch Road ever been audited ? Never, that I am aware of. Have any Accounts of that Branch Road ever been sent to the Clerk of the Peace ? Not that I know of. Is any Statute Labour performed on that Branch now ? Yes, from one End to the other it is done ; but for that the Debt to me at this Time would be much more than it is ; the Repairs come to now, I believe, consi- derably more than are received from the Gates. Can you inform the Committee how much Statute Labour is performed there ? I can inform the Committee how much, because I have calculated it ; in the Tithing of Eastcourt it comes to about Are the Committee to understand it to be a Composition for Statute Labour that you are now alluding to, and not Statute Labour itself? It is a Sum rated from the Poor's Rate ; it is calculated upon the Poor's Rate 5 it comes to about 40s. a Year, I believe. Is that Amount of Composition greater than was levied before it became a Turn- ^'l^waTnot acquainted with it at that Time; when I purchased the Estate, the Roads were so intolerably bad, that the first Thing I did was to repair that Road. I should imagine that it did not cost a great deal, or they would have been ma better State, and would therefore have cost more. (24.) S2 The , 140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Jvseph Pitt Esq. The Money to make this Road was advanced by you in the first instance ? Entirely. And the Repairs of it have been continued at your Expence, over and above the Composition coming from the Owners of Land within the Parish ? Yes. Has any Composition been paid ? Yes ; all that appears by the Account rendered. Nq Accounts have been passed at any General Meeting ? There are Two Roads ; one is comprised in the Act of Parliament; the one 13 considerable ; the other, that which is now the Subject of Consideration, is a very small Matter, indeed so small, that the whole Expence does not come to above 40/. or 50/. a Year to keep them in repair ; that is collected principally by Rates, after the Manner of the Poor Rates, in Proportions. Is there not a Turnpike Toll upon the smaller Road ? Yes; but it produces very httle indeed; one has produced sometimes 15/., sometimes 10/. ; not much more than it requires to pay the Turnpike iCeeper, and other little Matters that are necessarily required. Has any other Individual any Interest in that Branch Road excepting yourself? No, not any Person. Does the Local Act under which Tolls are authorized to be taken contaip any Clause which exempts the Trustees from the General Turnpike Act ? No ; there is a Mistake ; it has been considered so small a Concern that it has not been found necessary to follow the Provisions of the Act ; but the Act applies as much to that as any other Road. Do you mean to say, the Directions contained in the General Turnpike Act have not been complied with in consequence of the inconsiderable Amount of Tolls taken? Yes, from its being so inconsiderable* Is the Road in a good State of Repair ? It is one of the best Roads in the Kingdom at this Time ; it has cost me 3,oOtt/. to do it. If that Branch of Road was taken out of the Act, could the Road be maintained by the Composition for the Statute Labour ? It might certainly, because I do not know that there is any Limit to a Highway Rate. Do you think it would much increase the general Rate ? Yes, it would increase something; it would not be so well done, for the Statute Labour in general, which is done by their Teams, and sending Men them- selves, it is generally but half done ; whereas, if you pay the People who do the Repairs you have it done in a proper Manner, which you have a Right to expect. Your great Object in having the Gates was more to prevent Persons from going on the Road and spoiling it than any thing else ? It was more to keep them off than to induce their going on ; but for that the Roads would never be in Condition ; the Inhabitants in that Neighbourhood would have made it a constant Habit going about free from Toll ; whereas now they go by their own Roads through the adjoining Parishes. Do you consider that you yourself are Debtor to the Gate to the Amount of 10/. a Year ? Yes, I do ; I am indebted to the Concern, but the Concern is my own, and therefore it makes no Difference, because the Concern is indebted to me about 1,900/. I believe the Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Trust consists of the First Branch, which is the Ashton Keynes or First District, and that the Second, which is Wootton Bassett, is a Continuance of the First Road, within a Mile of Wootton Bassett ? . Yes. ^ And ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. Ul And the Third is the Minty and Crudwell ? Joseph Pitt Esq. No, that is not exactly so ; there were only Two Districts originally ; those were ' the Minty and Crudweli and Wootton Bassett, and the Branch now. The last Act of Parliament embraces Powers (I am not. quite sure that the first does not do it) to make a shorter Cut of about a Mile from Wootton Bassett over the Land of Lord Clarendon ; that has not been done yet. Are you in the habit of attending the Meetings of the Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Trust ? Very seldom indeed. Are you aware that Meetings are held ? ^ Oh, yes ! the Clerk has regularly written to me, as he has to the other Commis- sioners, but I did not feel much interested in either Road, indeed, because my own is made perfectly as good, and the Ashton Keynes and the other People are more interested in it than I am, and therefore they have attended it. Are you aware that your Name appears in the Returns of the Clerk of the Peace of the County of Gloucester as Treasurer of this Trust ? I am not aware of it. Did you ever receive any Money ? From whom ? From the Tolls that are levied upon the Wootton Bassett Road ? Yes, on account of the Interest which they owe me. I advanced the greater Part of the Money which made that Road, and that Money is still due to me, and what I received was Money on account of Interest. Are you not aware that you are the only Creditor who receives Interest upon the Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Road ? , Nobody has as yet received any Interest. I am not quite sure of it, but I do not think any body has had any yet ; not that I am aware of. With the Exception of yourself ? With the Exception of myself. Is not that in consequence of your being the only Gentleman who had advanced Money on the Floating Debt ? There is nobody that has advanced a Shilling but myself, beyond what is a kind of Subscription ; it was never expected to be returned, but it was done by some Gentleman at large ; they have always sent me what they could, but that has always been very far short of my Interest. The Witness is directed to withdraw. WILLIAM M'ADAM Esquire is called in, and examined as follows : IV. iw Adam Esq. Are you a Surveyor ? I have been for the last Fifteen Years employed as a General Surveyor of Roads under my Father's System. Are you now Surveyor of any Roads ? Yes, I am. ♦ Will you state what th6y are ? I am Surveyor of the Black Dog Trust, between Warminster and Frome ; the Exeter Trust ; the Frome Trust ; and the Dawlish Trust. The rest of the Roads which I had I have given up to my Sons. Have you any Suggestion to offer for the Amendment of the present System of the Management of the Turnpike Trusts ? r ,. r,. i. l I can only say that I consider the present Constitution of the Trusts throughout England as very bad. From all my Experience I do not think, unless some very con>. siderable Alteration takes place in the Constitution of the Trusts in general, that the Payment of the Debt, and the Reduction of the Expences to what they ought to be, will ever take place. I have thought a good deal upon this Subject, and it appears to me that the Management of the Roads in the Country is best with the local Gentry, /g^-x S 3 inasmuch 142 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE fr. M-Adam Esq. inasmuch as they understand the Lines of Road that are required, and their Local- ities, better than any other Persons can possibly do ; but I think the Trusts at large require a Control to prevent improper Roads being made — Roads of very little public Utility, leading in particular Directions towards the Property of Individuals, which are paid for out of the general Funds of the Trusts by Travellers on other Lines, I should propose upon all new Roads there should be a specific Toll for the Purpose of paying the original Formation of the Road, which should be kept upon it 'till the Road was clear, applicable solely to the original Cost of the Road. Clear of its Formation Debt ? Yes ; and that no Money should be borrowed but upon the Security of that particular Toll, so that if the Road is not worth making it should not be made. Where would you propose to give the controlling Power ? I would give the controlling Power to a Board situated in London, to whom Annual Returns should be made, and which Board should possess the necessary Information to check those Returns. At present there are Annual Returns made to Parliament, but they come in as a matter of course, and there is no one to check them, and I know that some of them are incorrect. Do you believe that consolidating the Trusts in different Parts of the Country would be of Service to the Roads, and prove an economical Arrangement ? I do ; I think it would tend to raise the Character of the Road Trusts, and enable more Skill and Ability to be employed in the Superintendence of those Roads ; and it would lessen the Expence considerably, and diminish the Number of Acts of Parhament necessary for the present conducting of the Roads. Would it be a Saving in the Purchase of Materials ? Very great, I think; for I have always found the greatest Difficulty in reducing the Expence of a Trust to be from the limited Time within which I have been obliged to work. When I commenced at first I was appointed for a Year, and I could never lay my Plans or take any Measures for the Maintenance of the Trust beyond the Year, After some Time I objected to taking Roads by the Year, saying, that unless I got them for Five Years, or some such Period, I could not economize them so much. Latterly I have had them on such Terms. It enables a General Surveyor to open Quarries much more effectually. He can take Measures when he knows heVias a Period of Years to work on, which he would not otherwise be justified in doing. It would take too much Money within One Year, or any short Period, in many Situations, to do so. Would not a Consolidation of Trusts be economical in saving a large Sum in the Salaries of Clerks and other Officers? Certainly, Clerks, also Treasurers and Surveyors. To what Extent would the Consolidation be desirable ? Why, the Trusts run so very differently in Size I can hardly name them by Number of Trusts ; I can see no Objection to any Number of Trusts, containing together from 500 to 1,000 Miles, being under One Set of Commissioners. Would One General Surveyor be able to look over 1,000 Miles ? Certainly ; I have had much more to do at one Time, besides my Trust being very much scattered. Do you keep resident Sub-surveyors on the Roads under your Management ? I keep resident Sub-surveyors on all my Roads, but I have always paid those Sub-surveyors out of the Monies allowed me for Repairs, and as Part of the Expences of the Repairs of the Roads." How would you propose to defray the Expences of the Board in London ? By a small Per-centage from the Trusts. Do you think that Arrangement would be more economical than the present System ? A great deal ; I consider the whole Evil nearly to arise at present from the uncontrolled State of the Road Trustees. Are the Trustees in general in the habit of requiring an Estimate to be given to them by the General Surveyor before they commence an Improvement ? Always before they commence an Improvement or a new Road, but never so when I undertake the Reformation of any old Road. Do ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 143 Do you not think they ought to receive an Estimate before large Sums of Money w. M'Adam e.o are expended? ■' '^' Upon old Roads ? Yes. When I first began I found all the Trusts as to the Roads and Finances in a State of Rum ; they showed me a Statement in general ; I took the Money, set aside Money for the Interest— for the Payment of the outstanding Bills, and I was always content to take what was left, and with that I have never failed to make the Roads good, and to bring the Trusts round into proper Order ; and I think, with a proper Control, I could do that upon all the Trusts in the Kingdom which I have been able to do upon Thirty or Forty ; and out of those Balances, as I may call them, that were left, I have been able to make very considerable Savings, Does the Law which compels the Trustees to put ud the Tolls at the same Sum at which they were let for the previous Year prevent Persons from bidding for them at the first Meeting ? I think -it almost always prevents their bidding at the first Meeting ; it has always appeared to me an unnecessary Expence, as the Meetings generally break up without coming to any Terms about the Toll. Would you object to giving the Trustees the Power on the first Day to put the Tolls up at the Sum of Money they might think fit, and to permit them, through their Clerk, to bid themselves ? I see no Objection to it whatever. Or to receive sealed Tenders, if they thought fit ? I think that might do very well. I think receiving sealed Tenders would prevent that Species of Combination. That is very generally supposed to take place f Always ; but I think also a Consolidation of the Trusts would tend to the Removal of many Toll Gates, and would reduce the Quantity of Toll Gates throughout the Country very much. Would that effect a Saving to the Public ? A very great Saving as to Toll Houses and Gates ; and I should be particularly glad to see every Weighing Engine in England done away with. Are they done away with on. all the Trusts under your Management ? There are none on one of the largest Trusts I have under my Management, namely, the Exeter Trust, 155 Miles in extent. Do you think it possible to get the same Body of Trustees to attend Meetings when the Distance of their Jurisdiction would extend from 500 to a 1,000 Miles ? In speaking of the Extent of Miles, I conceive the Districts within which the Roads would be would not be distant from the farthest Point perhaps Forty to Fifty Miles. From the Centre of the Star, to what Distance do you think their Jurisdiction might extend, so as to insure the Attendance of the same Body of Trustees ? Gentlemen now have to attend sometimes Twenty or Thirty Miles. I think Forty to Fifty Miles would not debar Gentlemen from attending. The Meetings in such a Case would be very few in Number compared to what they are now j instead of Monthly Meetings, Four at the most in a Year, and perhaps if only Two, would be better for the Country, Do you not think the System of Road-making is so much better understood now than formerly that much Money is saved ? I doubt that very much, I think the Reparation of the Roads for the last Eight or Nine Years has rather gone back j there is not the same Attention paid ; there is no Power to enforce it, and Surveyors get negligent. I see a great many Alterations in many Roads for the worse. You appear to be engaged in many different Parts of the Country ; and you have stated your Opinion in favour of a Consolidation of Trusts ; you probably have frequently heard the Subject discussed among Trustees ; what should you say is the prevailing Opinion ? I should say, those Trustees who really come to do their Duty to the Public (24.) S 4 at 144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE IV. M'Adam Esq. at Trust Meetings are universally of Opinion that a Consolidation would be ■ beneficial. Have you also heard that Point discussed as to the Extent of the Districts ? No, not particularly ; I certainly have heard a Number of Miles equal to^ 500 spoken of; in speaking of different Trusts, that would form a good Consolidation, You mean by 500 Miles, total Amount ? The total Amount not in Length, but under the Superintendence of One Trust. Supposing that you take a District larger than One County, should you not conceive an Inconvenience in doing it in any other Way than adding Two Counties together ? Would it not be inconvenient to have a certain Number of Trusts consisting of certain Parts of Two Counties ? I do not see any Inconvenience that would arise from that ; at present many- Trusts lie in Two Counties. As a general Rule for Districts, you would say, either One or Two entire Counties ? Or more, according to the Size ; and although a small Part of the Roads of a Trust might run into another County, I consider those Trusts to belong to that County in which they held their General Meetings, You yourself know of Trusts that do run into different Counties ? Yes, a great many. Have you any Suggestion to make as to any Alteration of the present General Turnpike Laws ? None other than those which I have now mentioned ; I really think there never will be any Good done as to economizing the Roads, and putting the Thing on a proper System, without a Board of Control j I should wish to see a Board estab- lished in London for that Purpose. Have you any Suggestion to make as to an improved Mode of employing manual Labour ? I have no particular Suggestion to make, further than that I think, under proper Arrangement, and continued Arrangements, a great deal more Work might be done by Men than is now done, by opening contiguous Quarries, having the Materials wheeled out and brought to the Road, and other Works done more by Men than by Horses. Do you pay your Men by the Grate, that is to say, by Task-work ? The greater Part ; nearly all. Are you aware that in Scotland the Trusts in several of the Counties are conso- lidated ? Yes, I am a Trustee of Roads in Ayrshire ; they are confined to the County only. Each County has its Trust for all the Turnpike Roads within the County ? Yes. How does the System work in Scotland ? I have hardly been in Scotland for the last Fifteen Years, and paid very little Attention to the Scotch Roads, but from the Amount of the Tolls, and the Way in which I see the Work carried on, I apprehend they are more expensive than in England. But, on the other hand, the Roads are much finer and in better Repair than in England ? Yes, but they cannot help it, because they have got such good Materials. Supposing that the Trusts upon every Road branching from a Town were conso- lidated, do you think that that could be done with a good Effect ? Yes, with great good Effect; and not only that, but that various Towns should be taken together. There are some Towns, such as Winchester, for instance, has Five Trusts leading from it ; then there are a Number of Towns, such as Warminster, Frome, Salisbury, Westbury, Trowbridge, and Bradford, now separate Trusts, that 1 think would form One Trust very well. Supposing ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 145 Supposing a Consolidation of that Description should take place, what Arrange- ^- ^'^'''"» Esq. ment would you make with respect, to the separate Funds of those Roads ? ' As to the Security ? Yes, as to the Security, and as to applying the Funds on those Roads ? Unless I knew the exact State of each Trust I could hardly answer that Question. I do not think there would be any Difficulty, if such a Consolidation took place, to arrange the Toll and the Debt satisfactorily to all Parties. I think if any Individuals thought it shook their Security at all, there would be Plenty of other Individuals more willing to lend a Consolidated Trust of that sort than a separate Trust. Then your Notion would be, that the Entire of the Roads within the Consolida- tion should become Security for the Entire of the Debt upon all the Roads within that Consolidation ? My great Wish is to see a Stop put to the increasing Debt upon Roads at once ; and whenever a new Road is made, or even an Improvement, when the Trustees have not the Money to make it in their Treasurer's Hands, they should be compelled to put on a Toll for that Improvement solely, and when it was paid to take it off; that would prevent Roads being made that never will pay for themselves, and for the Maintenance of which the Revenues of other Lines of Road are carried away. Have you ever sketched a Plan for the Consolidation of the, Trusts in your District ? I have thought of it a good deal; I have occasionally sketched Plans of that sort. Should you be prepared to give in to the Committee any Sketch of a Plan detailing your Views of Consolidation in any particular District, say the West of England, for instance ? Yes ; I could take the Five or Seven Western' Counties, if the Committee will give me a Copy of the Abstract of the Returns, that I may see the Extent of the Trusts and the Amount of the Revenues. The Witness is directed to prepare and deliver in his Plan. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Friday the 31st Instant, at One o'clock. (24.) ( 147 ) Die Veneris, SVMaii 1833. The Duke of RICHMOND in the Chair. WILLIAM M'ADAM Esq. is called in, and further examined as follows : Evidence 911 Turnpike Road Have you prepared this Statement at the Request of the Committee ? Trusts. Yes. W. M'Adam Esq, The following Statement is delivered in and read : Proposal for an Act to explain and amend the Law now in being respecting Turnpike Roads in that Part of the United Kingdom called England and Wales. Act to take effect from and after January 1834, and to extend the Terms of all Local Turnpike Acts for Thirty-one Years from and after the ist January 1834, unless sooner repealed by special Acts. All Road Bonds to be made payable to A. B. or Bearer, and to be numbered; to be renewed with a Stamp Duty equal to One per Centum. This Duty to be in lieu of and as an Equivalent to the Revenue for a Duty on Assignment. No Bond in existence at the Time of the passing of this Act to continue valid, or the Amount recoverable by Law, unless the same be renewed, and entered in the Book kept by the Clejk of the Trust, numbered, and the Duty paid within Twelve Months next after the passing of this Act. N. B. This Duty will yield an immediate Sum of 62,500/. on Bonds at present in existence. No Vacancy of Trustees to be filled up after passing of this Act. All Trustees of Roads at present legally admitted shall be Trustees on all the Roads within the County or Counties in which they are at present acting, together with the High Sheriff of the County, the Chief Magistrate of every Borough within the County, the Acting Justices of the Peace of the County, and all and every Person having in his own Right, or in the Right of his Wife, in Fee or in Life-rent, Freehold or Copyhold, Land within the County of the annual Value of 300/., exclusive of the Value of Houses or Buildings of any kind, and above Reprisals. Oath of Office to be taken. Oath of Qualification to be repealed. Penalty on Persons acting as Trustees without Qualification, or after having been denuded of the Property composing the Amount of Qualification, 500/. The Party challenged to prove his Qualification. Penalty to be recovered by any Person suing for the same. All Payments of Proportion of Composition for Statute Labour, and all Statute Duty in Kind, as far as relates to Roads made Turnpike, are to cease, and no longer to be paid to or the Service demanded by Trustees of Turnpike Roads; but when the Proportion of Statute Labour is indispensable for the Repair of any Turnpike Road, an additional Toll Duty, equal to the Value of such Statute Labour, shall be levied under the Authority of the Trustees, with the Consent and Approbation of the Board herein-after mentioned. All Weighing Engines to be abolished, ej^cept in particular Situations, to be approved by the Board aforesaid. All General and Deputy General Surveyors, and all Resident Surveyors of Turnpike Roads, to be exempted from serving on Juries or as Parish Officers, but all Resident Surveyors to be sworn in as Constables. All Resident Surveyors to give Security for Money in their Hands belonging to the Trusts, and for rendering Books, Papers, and Accounts when demanded by the Trustees. No Resident Surveyor to follow any other Occupation, Trade, or Calling while employed as a Turnpike Road Surveyor, under a Penalty of joo/. and Disqualification. All Tolls should be taken at a Rate for Horse-drawing in an increasing Ratio, namely. Pleasure Carriages with One Horse - - - i Toll. Two Horses _ - - 2^ Three ditto - - " 82 Four ditto _ - - 6 (24.; T 2 Vans, 148 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE W. M'Adam Lv/. Vans, Stage Coaches, and other Carriages working for Hire, to remain as at present, paying both Ways ; Waggons, Carts, and other Carriages for Burthens, if drawn by One Horse - - - i Toll. Two Horses - - - 2^ Three ditto - - - 4 Four ditto _ _ _ 6 Every Horse above the Number of Four 2 additional Tolls. Trustees to be empowered to compound with poor Persons not receiving Parish Relief, and gaining a Livelihood by carrying for Hire, in a One-horse open Cart without Reins, any One Material, such as Coal, Sand, &c., and producing a Certificate of good Character from the Clergyman of the Parish in which his Family reside, for Half Toll. Exemptions to remain as at present, with the Addition of all Materials for Toll Houses and other Works connected with the Roads under the Direction of Trustees, but with the Removal of all Exemption from Manure and Lime. Tolls at letting to be put up at the Discretion of the Trustees, who shall reserve One Bidding, and who may, pieviously to the public Auction, receive sealed Tenders. All Legislative Interference with the Size, Shape, and Breadth of Wheels to be given up, and all Clauses of Acts relative thereto to be repealed. That all new Roads for making which Acts shall be obtained from and after 1st January 1834 shall be paid for by a specific Toll, on the Security of which alone the Money for the Formation of the same shall be borrowed ; which Toll shall be continued until the same is paid off, and shall then cease, except so much as may be necessary to defray the Cost of any extra Repair which may be brought upon the Trust by such new Road, unless with the Sanction of the Board aforesaid previously obtained, upon the Trustees showing that surplus Money to the Amount necessary is already in the Hands of the Treasurer. No Alteration, Deviation, or Improvement of any Part of the old Road exceeding the ordinary Repair shall be made until the same shall be referred to the Consideration of the Board aforesaid, and having obtained the Approbation of the said Board. Fences of all new Roads, after being completed, to be upheld by the Proprietors of the Land, on Payment of Compensation, to be valued with the Land taken and Damage done. No Amount for Work done or Goods furnished for a Turnpike Road to be r'ecoverable by Law, which, if not paid within Three Months after the accruing of the same, shall not have been presented to the then next following Meeting of the Trustees, and the Amount marked by the Clerk as having been so presented, who is to be required to make such Marking, and to enter the same in the Minutes of the Meeting. The Resident Surveyors to state at the Time of making up the Annual Accounts the Names of any Persons having Claim for Goods furnished or Work done for the Trust upon Accounts current and unsettled during the preceding Three Months, under a Penalty of 50/. No Treasurer to lend Money to any Trust, or to make any temporary Advance, otherwise than upon a Mortgage of the Tolls regularly in his private Capacity; A Board to be appointed by His Majesty, under the Authority of an Act of Parliament, for the Purpose of inspecting the Accounts of Trustees of Turnpike Roads in England and Wales, for appointing General and Deputy General Surveyors, and for examining and con- trolling the Affairs of Roads under certain Regulations and Restrictions, consisting of £ s. d. The Post Master General, President, Six Commissioners - _ - unpaid 3 paid Commissioners 1,000/. a Year each - - - - 3,000 O I ditto as Comptroller, he being a practical Man . . _ i,ooo o o I Professional Adviser, without any Bill, except for Monies advanced - 300 o o I Secretary - - _ _ _ ^00 o o 1 Clerk -- ______ 300 o o Incidental Expences, including 500/. for Postage out and in - - Ij50O o o The Kingdom to be divided into Two Parts under the Direction of Officers, whose Salaries (as stated) are to cover all^ their personal and travelling Expences as follows : First Part to consist of One General Surveyorship, containing Three Districts, comprising Eight Deputy General Surveyorships, viz. First District. Berks - - 16 Trusts^- - 280 Miles. Hants - - 34 — - - 675 — Wilts - - 3^ — - - 549 — Deputy General Surveyorship 1,504 Miles. - - Salary 1,000 o o Somerset - 22 Trusts - - 850 — Dorset - - 16 — - - 389 — Deputy General Surveyorship r,239 Miles. - - - Salary 800 Carried forward ^£'8,300 o o ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 149 Brought forward ^8,300 00 f^- M'Adum Esq. Devon - - a; Trusts - 866 Miles. . Cornwall - 13 — - 348 Deputy General Surveyorship 1,214 Miles, - - . Salary 800 o o 7 Counties - 159 Trusts - 3,957 Miles. Second District, Norfolk - 14 Trusts - Suffolk - 14 _ Cambridge - la — Essex - 12 — 288 Miles. 299. — 204 — 266 — - Salary 800 Deputy General Surveyorship 1,057 Miles - Kent - - 47 Trusts 668 Miles. Surrey - - 21 — Sussex - - 49 — 396 — 6^6 — Deputy General Surveyorship 1,600 Miles - - Salary 800 Hertford - 9 Trusts - Bedford - 12 — Huntingdon 4 — Northampton 23 — Oxford ' - 32 — 150 Miles. 189 — 61 .— 365 — 287 — Bucks - 13 — 179 — - Salary 800 Deputy General Surveyorship 1,231 Miles - 13 Counties - iei Tmet-e - O-RRS MIIps Third District. 11,500 Gloster - 45 Trusts Worcester - 32 — Warwick - 33 — 836 Miles. 472 — 450 — - Salary 1,000 Deputy General Surveyorship 7,758 Miles - Rutland - 3 Trusts Leicester - aa — Stafford -56 — Salop - - 47 — 48 Miles/ 294 — 820 — 646 — - Salary 1,000 Deputy General Surveyorship 1,806 Miles - 7 Counties - 238 Trusts 35564 Miles. General Surveyor for the First Part, with a Seat at the Board when in Town ------- 2,500 o o econd Part to consist of One General Surveyorship, containing 3 Districts, comprising 4 Deputy General Surveyorships. Fourth District. Notts - - 20 Trusts - 265 Miles. Derby - - 40 — - 609 — Chester - 33 — - 449 — Lancaster -53 — ■ 547 — Deputy Genera] Surveyorship 1)870 Miles - - - Salary 1,000 o o 4 Counties - 146 Trusts - 1,870 Miles. Fifth District. Yorkshire - 103 Trusts - 1,481 Miles. Lincoln - 26 — - 455 — Deputy General Surveyorship 1,936 Miles - - - Salary 1,000 o o 2 Counties - 129 Trusts - 1,936 Miles. Carried forward ^18,000 o o (24.) T 3 150 IV. M'Adam Esq. MINUYES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Brought forward J"! 8,000 o o Durham - 16 Trusts Westmorland 11 — Cumberland J 3 — Northumberland 15 — 441 Miles. 27a — 275 — 416 — Deputy General Surveyorship 1,404 Miles - 6 Counties - 184 Trusts - 5,210 Miles. Sixth District. - 86 Trusts - 2,001 Miles. - Salary 800 Wales Monmouth - 10 — Hereford - 15 — 269 — 418 — Deputy General Surveyorship 3,688 Miles - :4 Counties - 1 11 Trusts - 2,688 Miles. Salary 1,000 o o 19,800 o o One General Surveyor for the Second Part, with a Seat at the Board when in Town 2,500 o o 4(7. in the Pound on the Road Income of England and Wales will produce 25,000 o o Persons. Board ------ General Surveyors - - - - - Deputy General Surveyors . - - Future Resident Surveyors Clerks Treasurers Present Persons employed _ ^- - - Number of Persons decreased _ - . Cost of Board's Establishment _ _ - - 250 Clerks, say at 200/. each _ - _ - - Printing, Advertising, Stationery, Letters, and other Charges on 1,000 Trusts, Average per Annum 25/. each - - - Present Charge for England and Wales - - - - Making a Saving per Annum of - - - - As soon as the whole Kingdom can be arranged, and Resident Surveyors placed regularly in the Proportion of about One to every Forty Miles of Road, 500 Persons (each keeping a Horse) at 100/. per Annum each (equal to 50,000/. a Year) will be required; but I do not deduct that from the above Saving of 99,000/., because on every Trust that has been properly regulated, even for a short Time, the Resident Surveyors have been paid out of the Funds, whatever the Amount might be, allowed for ordinary Repair and Wear ; therefore no additional Expence under proper Control and Regulations. Their Wages are the best spent Money on a Trust, and will, under such Circumstances, prove the surest Source of Economy ; Proofs of which, and of the beneficial Effects of such Arrangements, even when made for a short Time and under many Difficulties, can be given in the Reports of those Trusts themselves, and from other Documents ; and there is no Reason to doubt th^t the same Effects would follow on any Number of Trusts so regulated and maintained by Authority. The present great Evil is the Want of Identity in some Quarter having Authority equal to the protecting of the public Interest in Roads. The present Trustees of petty Trusts, jealous of each other, including Persons of every Grade in Society, are not Trustees for the Public. A Board is proposed for the Purpose of their Control, and to afford that Pro- tection to the public Interest. It is superfluous to point out the Waste of Money arising in every Way from so many conflicting Bodies often opposing each other on Points that no way affect the public Good, — in the hurried and ill-digested Manner in which new Roads are often made in duplicate and 7 triplicate, 22,300 e 25,000 II a 12 25 - 500 - 250 40 - 3.637 - 2,812 ■ ^■'23,300 50,000 35,000 97,000 196,000 99,000 ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 151 triplicate, where One would have been sxifficient had the best been made first. The entire tV. M'Adam Esq Absence of any thing like System is seen (in the Returns) in the great Number of Officers on very short Lines of Road, and vice versa, — in the large Amount of permanent Debt per Mile on some Trusts above others, and in the excessive Difference in the Expence of Repair of Roads apparently of a similar Character, in the unequal Payment of Officers, and in short in every thing connected with Road Trusts, which gradually grew up into a Mass of Confusion, ending in Debt and bad Roads. The Roads have been improved, but the Increase of the Debt never will be put a stop to, far less diminished, until a decided Reform takes place, and the actual Work and Transactions on Roads are placed under the Control of a Board having Authority and commanding Experience equal to regulating and economising all Trust Affairs. With such a Board I have no doubt that the Debt may be paid off, and ultimately the Tolls on all Roads reduced. The Trusts of One or more Counties (as Wilts) to be consolidated, quoad Trustees, Meetings, Clerks, and Treasurers, One unpaid Treasurer being appointed for such Allot- ment, and One central Place (as Devizes) to be fixed at which Half-yearly Meetings are to be held, which Meetings will divide the County by Lines drawn North and South and East and West through such central Place, and name the Trusts to be included in each of such Four Committee Divisions, each of which Divisions shall appoint a professional Clerk, who shall have no Bill against the Trust except for Monies laid out, and shall hold severally Quarterly Meetings, (say at Chippenham, Marlborough, Salisbury, and Warminster,) at which the Affairs of the Trusts shall be conducted ; but all Orders and Proceedings shall be reported for Confirmation or Rejection at the next Half-yearly Central Meeting before being carried into effect. Special Committee Meetings may be held at any convenient Place for the Purpose of letting the Tolls, at which Meetings no other Business shall be transacted. Meetings may be held on Requisition of Three or more Trustees for taking into consideration the making new Roads and otherlmprovements ; but all Expences attending such Meetings and Surveys of such projected new Roads and Improvements shall be chargeable only on the specific. Fund allotted or to be raised for making the same, and on no other Road Revenue. An Accountant Clerk (following no other Occupation) to reside near and attend the General Half-yearly Meetings, and also to attend the Quarterly Division Meetings, with the Accounts of the several Trusts. The Accountant Clerk to receive and keep the Treasurers, Clerks, and Surveyors Accounts of each Trust separately, and to make Two Books, One for himself and One for the Treasurer, with a List therein of the Number and Description of each Bond, and to mark and sign from Time to Time on each Bond, when required by the Holders so to do, (entering the same in his own Book,) the Amount of Interest due thereon, which shall entitle the Holder to receive the same from the Treasurer on signing the Treasurer's Book. The Accountant Clerk to send annually to the Board a List of all Interest paid and unpaid, with the Number of the Bonds, and likewise to make up and send to the Board, in duplicate,, the Annual Account of each Trust. The General Treasurer for each Allotment shall give Security, and shall merely receive and pay Monies ; such Treasurer not to make any Charge for Salary or otherways, nor to allow any Interest for Money while lying in his Hands. The Board, upon the Report of their General Surveyors, will, as soon as may be, recom- mend to the Trusts the Number of Resident Surveyors necessary for the Service of their Trusts, and will explain the Ejstent and Nature of their Duties;, upon which the Committee Meetings will appoint the necessary Number of Surveyors, to be approved of by the Central Meeting, the Expence of which Surveyors will be considered as Part of the Expence of Repair. All Balances in the present Treasurer's Hands on 31st December 183 j to be paid over to the General Treasurer forthwith. The General and Deputy General Surveyors to have Access ex officio to all Trust and Committee Meetings, Books, Papers, and Accounts, at all reasonable Times. The Board in London to have Power to require the Trustees to dismiss any OiEcer of their Trust of whose Conduct or Abilities the Board may have Reasons to disapprove. All Sinking Funds ordered by Local Acts, and all surplus Revenue, to be remitted to the Board in London, which shall from Time to Time therewith buy up, at the Market Price, Bonds of the several Trusts respectively ; and if no Sellers appear, the Board to be at liberty to pay them off in numerical Order ; the Interest thereon to cease on Notices being publicly given that the Money is ready for the Redemption thereof. Any Minority of Trustees, not fewer than Five in Number, that may think fit to appeal to the Board against any Order made by a Majority, may do so, in which Case the Board's. Decision shall be final. The Board to report annually to Parliament, and to suggest such further legislative Measures as the Experience they will acquire, and the Alteration that will take place in the Circum' stances of the Trusts, will require. London, 30th May 1833. Wm. M'Adai*. The Witness is directed to withdraw. (24.) T4 152 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE s,r J. ,s. LilUe. Sir JOHN SCOTT LILLIE is called in, and examined as follows : Have you ever acted as Chairman of the Fulham and Kensington Turnpike Trust in the County of Middlesex ? I have occasionally acted as such. How long is it since you have attended a Meeting ? In the course of the present Month ; I believe about a Fortnight or Three Weeks since. Who is the Clerk of the Trust ? We have none at present. Mr. Robinson of Jermyn Street was Clerk, but he died about Three Weeks ago. Are you acquainted with the Manner in which that Trust has been managed ? Yes. Are you aware whether the Annual Return required by the General Turnpike Act has been made to the Clerk of the Peace for the County of Middlesex ? I was not aware of its not having been made until I was lately informed by Mr. Lyon, the Solicitor of the Metropolitan Roads Trust, that no such Return had been made. Who is the Treasurer of the Trust ? I believe Messrs. Cockburn's Establishment were appointed Bankers to the Trust when we first got our Act of Parliament, and they act in that Capacity still. Have you any Statement of the Affairs of the Trust ? I have none myself. Lord Kensington was the original Projector, I believe, of this Road ; and as Part of it passed through my Property he asked if I would become a Subscriber, which I consented to do upon the Understanding that I was to be paid for my Land which was to be taken for the Road. Is that Road a great Convenience to the Neighbourhood ? It is a great Convenience to the Neighbourhood ; and One of the Reasons why it was particularly required at the Time that the Act of Parliament was obtained was in consequence of a Wooden Bridge over the Counters Creek Sewer having been removed, when that Sewer was converted by Act of Parliament into a navigable Canal. Where does the Trust commence, and where does it end ? It commences at Earl's Court in the Parish of Kensington, and terminates at North End in the Parish of Fulham. Have you any Statement respecting this Trust ? Yes ; it is a Copy of a Petition from the Inhabitants in the Vicinity of the Road to the Commons House of Parliament. Deliver it in. The following Statement is put in and read To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in Parliament assembled : Tke humble Petition of the undersigned Inhabitants and Owners of Lands in the Parishes of Kensington, Chelsea, Fulham, and Hamlet of Hammersmith, in the County of Middlesex, Showeth, That an Application was made to Parliament in the Sixth Year of the Reign of His late Majesty for Authority to make a Turnpike Road, and to build a Bridge across the Kensington, Canal, to enable the Inhabitants of Earl's Court, Old Brompton, and Parts of Chelsea to communicate by a more commodious and direct Line than any previously existing with North End in the Parish of Fulham, and with a Road leading across Fulham Fields towards the recently-erected Suspension Bridge at Hammersmith ; and also to enable the Market Gardeners and others residing on the Fulham Side of Hammersmith and at North End in the Parish of Fulham to have a greater Facility of Communication with the aforesaid Places as well as with the Metropolis, there not being any other Bridge or Means of Communication, either for Carriages or Foot Passengers, between the Parishes of Kensington and Fulham, from the Counters Bridge on the Western Road to Little Chelsea Bridge on the Fulham Road, a Distance exceeding One Mile and a Quarter : That ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 153 That the only previous existing Mode of Communication across the Counters Creek Sewer, Sir J. S. LiUk. now called "the Kensington Canal," was by a Wooden" Bridge and a Footpath; but when that Sewer was converted by Act of Parliament into a navigable Canal, the increased Traffic, added to the daily increasing Neighbourhoods, rendered a more permanent Bridge than a wooden one, and a more commodious Road than a Foot Road, Indispensably necessary : That with respect to the saving of Distance to the Public, your Petitioners have Reason to believe that it will be found that the Distance, on the direct Line of this Road, between North End and Earl's Court, is less than Three Quarters of a Mile, and that the Distance by either of the Bridges before alluded to on the Western and Fulham Roads exceeds Two Miles; consequently a saving of Distance between those populous Neighbourhoods has been effected to the Extent of One Mile and a Quarter : That the former Mode of Communication for Foot Passengers, however inconvenient and incommodious, was moreover sometimes completely obstructed by occasional Inundations at high Tides, that Portion of the said Foot Road which was situated at the Western Side of the Creek having been lower than the Tide Level : That such Obstructions, and the Dangers consequent thereon, are now amply provided against by the Turnpike Road aforesaid being raised to the Height of several Feet above the Level of the Tide: That an Application having been made to Parliament in the Year before mentioned, a Committee of your Honourable House made the necessary Inquiries and Investigations into ^ the Grounds upon which the said Application was founded, and having been satisfied as to the Necessity that existed for the Formation of this Road and for the building of this Bridge, and having made a Report to that Effect to your Honourable House, an Act was accordingly passed for that Purpose : That in the Year following the passing of this Act, and previous to the Works contem- plated thereby having been completed, another Act was passed for the Purpose of " conso- lidating the Trusts of the several Turnpike Roads in the Neighbourhood of the. Metropolis North of the River Thames," and that this first-mentioned Road (commonly called " Earl's Court and Fulham Fields Road"), by reason of its not having been completed when the latter Act was passed, was (it is presumed) not included therein : Y'our Petitioners, however, humbly represent that the said Road has since been duly completed, but that It cannot be so consolidated with the Metropolitan Trusts without the Authority of Parliament : That a Bill to accomplish this Object is now in progress through your Honourable House, and that it would be of great public Benefit and Utility if the same were to pass into a Law, the more especially if it should appear (as your Petitioners have Reason to believe) that the Revenues arising from the Tolls of the different Roads in the Kensington District, in which this Road is situated, considerably exceed the Amount of the Expenditure pn the said Roads: That under such Circumstances your Petitioners conceive that it would be a Hardship and Grievance if an additional Toll for the exclusive Maintenance and lighting of the Road in question should be imposed upon them by the Authority granted to the local Trustees of the said Roads, and also that it would be a great public Inconvenience jf the said Road were permitted, for Want of the proper Repairs, to become unfit for the Accommodation of the Public. ,. , , ^^ Your Petitioners therefore humbly pray that the said Bill now pending before your Ho- nourable House, under the Title of « The Fulham and Kensington Road Bill," may pass into a Law, in conformity with the Principle upon which the Metropolitan Turnpike Road Bill, " for consolidating the Trusts of the several Turnpike Roads In the Neighbourhood of the Metropolis North of the River Thames," obtained the Sanction of Parliament. And your Petitioners, as in Duty bound, will ever pray, &c. I should wish to state to the Committee that it was understood that this Road would be likely to be' taken intoi the Metropolitan Trust when they obtained their Act of Parliament in the Year i8z6, which could not have been done without an Act of Parliament ; and an Application was made during the present Session for the Purpose of having it so consolidated, and for the general Purposes of the Trust ; but owing to some Informality, or to some technical Objection, the Bill was lost this Session, there being no Clerk regularly paid ; for when that is the case the Business cannot be expected to be well done ; it was owing to some Informality that the Bill was thrown out. The Inhabitants are desirous that it should be consolidated with the Metropolitan Trust, are they not ? , , r. • • • t. u Yes they are. All the Magistrates m the Vicinity signed the Petition, with the other Inhabitants, and particularly the Market Gardeners, who find that Road v«ry convenient. One of the Reasons why there is no Toll, as far as I can recollect at nresent is, that a very great Outcry was made at Two Tolls being collected within Half a Mile of each other, and at a Distance of only Two Miles from the Metropolis. Does it either begin or end adjoining to any other Turnpike Road ? It does communicate between Two Turnpike Roads. (24.) U Name 134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE J. S. Lillie. Name the Two Roads ? I do not know the Names ; they are both in the Metropolitan District ; One is at Earl's Court in the Parish of Kensington, and the other at North End in the Parish of Fulham. Is any Toll collected at present on that Road ? No. How do you repair that Road ? Although there is no Toll at present, the Tolls of the Road have been leased to a Mr. Levy, I think, for One or Two Years. There have been no Materials put on it for the last Year ; it was very well gravelled about a Year ago, and since then there has been nothing done to it. Is there a Bar Gate upon the Road ? Yes. When you say Mr. Levy leased it, do you mean that he took a Lease to repair itf No, he did not. You say there is no Toll levied on this Road at present ? There is no Toll collected at present. Has any Toll ever been collected upon this Road ? Yes. By what Authority ? By the Authority of the Act of Parliament. There is a Surplus remaining, is there not ? There is a Balance remaining in the Banker's Hands from the Subscription, which has been hitherto sufficient to keep it in repair when required. If there has been an Act of Parliament empowering you to levy a Toll, how does it happen that the Tolls have ceased to be collected ? On the Expiration of the last Lease to Mr. Levy, I received no Notice of a Meeting of the Trustees for the Purpose of re-letting the Tolls, and therefore I attribute it to an Omission in the Clerk in not having called the Trustees together for the Consideration of that Subject. "When was the original Act of Parliament obtained ? In the Year 1825. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Vr. G. Hollis, ^^^ GEORGE HOLLIS is called in, and examined as follows : Are you Clerk of a Turnpike Trust at Winchester ? I am. What Trust ? Of the Road from Winchester to Popham, a Line of Twelve Miles. How long have you been Clerk of that Trust ? Forty-one Years last September. I was both Clerk and Treasurer 'till the late Statute divided the Offices. Have you been a Trustee upon any other Roads leading from Winchester ? Yes, I have, upon Six other Roads. How many Turnpike Trusts are there at present leading out of Winchester ? There are Nine ; that is to say, there are Nine different Roads ; Three of them are under One Act of Parliament, and One Set of Trustees, and One Clerk ; those are the North Districts of the Southampton Road, and the Roads to Stockbridge and Bishop's Waltham ; they are all under One Act. The others are under separate Acts r Yes. And separate Trustees ? They are almost all the same Persons. ^ Separate ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 155 ' Separate Clerks ? Mr. G. Hoiiis, Yes ; there is One Clerk to Two of the Roads ; that to Alton, and that to ' Newbury through Whitchurch. In your Opinion, would the Consolidation of those Trusts be beneficial ? Certainly I think so, and it is the Opinion, I know, of many of the Trustees, and it has been suggested by them. Would it be an economical Measure ? I think so, certainly. I think if they were consolidated, and there was One Clerk well paid, that it would be better than paying the different Clerks as they are now. Would not such an Arrangement be beneficial in respect to the Purchase of Materials ? I think in every respect it would be beneficial if the whole were under the Management of One Set of Trustees ; then there would be no Rivalship, as there is now. Have you turned your Attention to the Management of Turnpike Trusts ? Yes, I have, very much, I was appointed in the Year 1791 ; and as early as the Year 1798, as I see by the rough Draft of my Book, I had written on the Subject. I there see I had been Clerk to this Trust about Seven Years, and have been so from that Time to this, and of course previously ; and it is that Circumstance upon which I have framed the Opinion I now have. I then made Observations ; I have paid very particular Attention to this Subject ; I had a Taste for it, and I have noticed every thing that has struck me either as new or improving. Will you state to the Committee the Result of the Opinion which you have formed after due Consideration ? I will state this, that having, as I said before, originally made the Draft of it about Seven Years after, as I see by a fair Copy which I have here, when I had been Clerk and Treasurer for more than Fourteen Years then past, and therefore I suppose that that was made about the Year 1805. I know at one Period that I thought it was earlier, but, seeing this Copy, I think it must have been then. I gave this to my noble Friend, then Earl Temple, now the Duke of Buckingham, and it was in his Hands until the Year 1825 ; and then I believe that there was something which called my Attention to it again, and I requested his Grace to give me a Letter of Introduction to the now Lord Ripon, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, in order to show how long ago it was. In fact, mine was not built upon the Opinion of any other Person, but since then a great many Persons have given their Opinions upon it, and all I wanted was to establish the Originality of mine. I waited upon my Lord Ripon, and had then a long Conversation with him upon it, and left the Book with him. It has slept ever since until the Beginning of this Year ; and then, seeing • by the Papers that there was some Talk of something being done to the public Roads, I then applied to my Lord Ripon to ask him if he could return the Book which 'l had left with him in the Year 1825. There were Two or Three Letters passed between me and his Secretary, and the Result was that the Book could not be found ; and then I set about making another Copy, which is now in His Grace the Chairman's Hands, since which Time I have found another Copy. You deliver this in as the Statement you allude to ? Yes. The following Statement is put in and read. Practical Observations and Hints as to Turnpike Roads. Having for more than Fourteen Years past executed the Offices of Clerk and Treasurer of a Turnpike Road, and in consequence been led to investigate and consider the Improvement j -.^^.^.^t, ^,ybe that it was susceptible of, as well with regard to its Revenues as to the Expenditure of it, I made in, and a Revenue have by that Means discovered, and I think shall be able to prove, that much may be done in derived from, the Turn- the Amelioration of both ; but this can only effectually be accomplished by placing the P'"'^ ^°^^- Management thereof, both as to Receipt and Expenditure, under One general Control and ,,„„„aer Direction, for, in the comparatively few Roads that have fallen under my more immediate onlgenerd Direction. Observations, I have seen that there is no Uniformity m the Management; and even in the ^^ „„:fo™ity in the Twelve Miles of Road for which I am Clerk and Treasurer, having found Men working present Plans, which thereon who had been employed there for several Years before, and who had imbibed their are therefore defective. own Prejudices and Opinions, I have found the greatest Difficulty in making any Change in their Plans, and in making them adopt mine. Nor were the Trustees for some Time more (24.) ' U2 easily 156 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. G. Hollis. easi Tolls on One Road increased nearly Cent, per Cent, by letting them. Great Savings may be made in the making and repairing the Road; and may be applied to the public Service ;' and obtained without any additional Burthen. The present Misma- nagement pointed out. To remedy this, an Act should be passed, vest- ing the entire Manage- ment of the Repairs mid the Revenues in the Government. The Tolls should be universally ^rmed out. The Funds of each Road to be applied to the Expenditures of it. ^„„.ly to be induced to depart from their old Plan of appointing their own Collector, and tc? let the Tolls to farm, though I proved to them that the grossest Frauds had been committed ; and the First Year that the Tolls were let, upon a previous Income of something less thaa 200/. per Annum an immediate Advance was made of upwards of 40/., besides a Saving of" Twenty-six Guineas a Year, which had been paid to their Collector when the Tolls were in hand; and the same has every Year gradually advanced in such rapid Increase that the Tolls are now let at 365/. per Annum, being an Increase of full Two Thirds in about Years j. and. to show that this is not a solitary Instance, I shall, in the Appendix, state the gradual' Increase in the Amount of Rent for the Tolls at several other Gates where they have been let to farm, and the Account of many of which I was furnished with by the Person who himself farms them, and vpho, notwithstanding the great Advance he gives, is known rapidly to have made a considerable Fortune by being the Renter of Tolls ; and as every one of the Gates that have been let to farm at Winchester, since the one that I am Clerk and Treasurer to (which was the first at that Place, and set the Example) has been let at a full proportionate Advance, and as is the Case of ail those of which I have given an Account, it is but fair to infer that a similar Increase may be made at every Gate not yet so let to farm ; and as I think that I shall be able to show that great Savings may be made in the making and repairing of Roads, though at the same Time they shall be better than they now are, I may venture to assume that a very large Sum of Money may be obtained from the Revenue of the Turnpikes, and which may and very properly ought to be applied to the public Service of the Country, and which at a Time like the present would be highly beneficial, as whatever might be obtained would be without making the smallest additional Charge on the Subject, but wholly be derived from the mere Adoption of a rational System of Management in the present Turn- pike Revenues and the Application of them. To bring about these desirable Ends has long occupied my Thoughts, and after a short Observation on the present Misapplication of the Monies arising from the Tolls, owing to the Mismanagement and Want of System in the original Formation, as well as the Repairs of Roads, I shall proceed to disclose my Plan for the Alteration and Amendment of the System. It must have struck the most common Observer that the only true Method of making a good Road in all Soils and all Situations, and of whatever Materials it may be made, is to give it a due Convexity, to throw the Water off, and keep the Road always dry and healthy, which alone almost will keep a Road good, of whatever Materials it may be made,, whilst the Want of Attention in this Particular will injure and destroy any Road, however good the Materials may be of which it may be made ; yet there are very few Roads on which it will not be seen that this Principle, which never should be departed from, is in some Parts wholly neglected ; and wherever it is there is and ever will be a bad Road. To unite, therefore, a great Saving with at the same Time a universal Amelioration of the Roads is the Intention of my Proposition ; but which never can be done until, by an Act of Parliament, the sole and entire Management of the Turnpike Roads throughout the Kingdom, both as to Receipt and Expenditure, be placed under the Direction and Control of the Government, and of Persons appointed by them. As to the Improvement of the Revenue, nothing more will be wanted than that the Tolls payable at every Gate in the Kingdom should be let to farm. There is every Reason to believe that the System of Fraud and Peculation is universally carried on by all Gate-keepers appointed by the Trustees, as in no one Instance that I know of where the Tolls have hitherto been let has there failed to appear, by the strongest of all Testimony, that of so much more being immediately given by the Farmer, and which has almost universally increased at each future letting; and it is most worthy of Remark, that the very Collectors themselves have bid considerably more than the Sum they brought in as paid to them in the Year preceding. The Increase of Revenue, therefore, through the whole Kingdom, must be immense; and nothing more will be required under this Head than to form a Fund of the Receipts of the Tolls, tr-om which the present Creditors of the several Trusts may receive their Interest, and to make -their Securities assignable as they now are; and to prevent any murmuring of the Holders of Securities, the particular Fund of each Road may be still applied to the Purposes of each respective Road. As to the Savings in Expenditure, they will with Certainty arise from the Adoption of various new Methods in the Formation and Repair of Roads, as shall now be explained under their several particular Heads. The Convexity of the Road can always be obtained with Ease and Certainty, even in the most dead Levels; and if there be sufficient Width, though the adjacent Ground on each Side be higher than the present Road (which is very often the Case), which, though so simple and plain, seems to have escaped general Observation, and to have hitherto been omitted in general Practice, though it has in most Roads been partially resorted to ; but certain it is that much oftener a flat Road is suffered to remain so, or rather by Wear to become concave in the Middle (instead of being made ON)TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 15t Made convex as it might), whereby all the Water remains on and sokes in and destroys the Road, instead of immediately running oflF, as it ought to do, and would do, if the Road had a proper Degree of Convexity. , To obtain this Form, as I have said before, is most easy, even in the deadest Flat, for nothing need be done but to lower the Sides of the Road, and it has all the Effect of raising the Middle ; and besides, where Roads have been flinted or gravelled to the Extremity of each Side, which however is never necessary, as will hereafter be shown, the Surface that is taken off the Sides may be thrown up in the Middle, which will operate in forming the Con- vexity in a double Ratio. That Part of the Soil that is taken off the Sides, and that may not be fit to be thrown on the Middle, should, in the first Formation, in most Cases, be thrown up as a Bank close to the Sides of the Road, with frequent Openings to let the Water pass through into a Ditch to be formed immediately without this Bank. ' In the Formation of all Roads, and whenever. the Sides may again want to be pared off and lowered, the Plough should always be used, instead of the present absurd and tedious and expensive Process of the Pickaxe. The Difference in point of Labour, which is the most expensive Charge on all Turnpikes, is scarcely to be conceived or described ; but a little Con- sideration will show that it is hardly possible to be too sanguine in one's Expectation on this Head. Mr. G. Mollis. Banks should'be formed with the Scrapings of the Roads on each Side, with Openings at in- tervals to let the Water run off. A Plough should be used to pare oif the Sides of the Roads. The PROPER Application of Materials IS also very little attended to at present, but the Errors which almost universally prevail are very easy to be corrected. When Roads require to be flinted or gravelled, the universal Practice is to lay the Materials, whatever they may be, in the Middle of the Road, where they are generally left wholly uncovered ; and thus that Part of the Road which should always be mostly used (viz. the Middle) is rendered unfit for Use, until, by little and little, the Flints or Gravel or other Materials are ground into the Road ; but every one must have observed, that wherever the Middle of the Road is thus mended. Horses and Carriages of every kind desert it ; the Two Sides are cut all to Pieces and destroyed, and by the Time that the Middle of the Road is thought fit to go upon both Sides want Repair; and thus there is a perpetual Waste and Misapplication of the Materials, besides that the Road is rendered extremely inconvenient. To remedy this Defect, I would propose, that whatever the Materials may be, they should be generally (and with a little Attention they always may be) laid on the Road in moist Weather", whilst the Sur- face of the Road is soft ; the Road should'previously be scraped quite clean ; and so soon as the Materials are laid on, the Scrapings, which would always have a considerable Portion of small fine Gravel in them, should be thrown on so as to entirely cover the new Materials, which Vvould tend both to make the Road smooth and fit for Horses immediately to go upon, and would bind the Materials and make them last much longer, and the Road be much better. When I propose throwing the Scrapings over the new Materials, I do not mean to suppose that the whole of the Scrapings will be fit for that Purpose ; some of them of course will not be fit, but those may be thrown over the Bank, or carried to some void Space near at Hand, and will make excellent Manure, and may be disposed of as hereafter proposed. Flints, &c. are now improperly laid in the Middle of the Road, and not covered. The Flints, &c. should be laid on in moist Weather, the Road being first scraped, and the Flints covered with the Scrapings. The OBTAINING Materials is now sometimes a Matter of considerable Difficulty, from the Power the Proprietor or Occupier of the Land has to refuse Permission to gather Flints from off their Lands, and is always attended with a very great Expence, as the Carriage of them comes very high. I conceive that a greater Saving may with proper Management be made ig this respect by always making the Carts that bring Flints or Gravel load back with the Soil of the Road that is no longer useful there, ^and which may be taken into the same Field whence the Flints or other Materials are brought from, and deposited there as Manure. This, I believe, is not done at present, but is perfectly practicable and rational, and may be easily adopted. The present Power of obtaining Materials not sufficient. The Scraping of the Road should be taken for Manure or other Purposes by the same Carts that bring the Flints, &c. The Guards or Fences to Roads, where they pass by the Sides of Hills, or on raised Roads through Vallies, are most commonly of Post and Railing, which are very expensive, and for which I would substitute, in almost all Cases, a Bank of Earth on each Side (with proper Gaps at Intervals to let the Water run off) sufficient to answer every Purpose of preventing Carriages from being overturned or running back out of the Roads. This is practised over the Malvern Hills and many other Places in the Kingdom. • , , , • There are very few Places where, bygiving the Road a due Convexity by ploughing out and throwing up the Sides, this Bank might not be almost immediately formed of a sufficient Height to answer a present Purpose, and it might gradually be increased by throwing up the Scrapings until it would be of a sufficient Height. In some few Places probably it might be inconvenient to farm these Banks ; and where that was the Case I would, to avoid the great Expence of Post and Railing, propose that Willows should be planted pretty thick, and which, by being placed in a Furrough, where they could receive Water from off the Road, would thrive in any Situation. The Heads must -of course be kept low and thin, that the Sun and Air may have free Passage on the Road. ^^ A 4 (24.) US And On HiUs or raised Roads Banks of Earth should be substituted for Posts and Rails. Where Banks cannot be made with Conve- niency, Willows might be planted. 168 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. G. Hollis. Hedges should be kept low. Quick Hedges should be Six Feet from the ^largin of the Road. flan proposed for re- uairing the Roads by Soldiei-s, by which it would be done better, and cheaper. The present Labourers not properly superin- tended, and are gene- rally old Men,incapable of doing a good Day's Work. The Carriage of Mate- rials to be by Waggons kept by Government. Which might also be always in readiness to be used as Baggage Waggons. One Waggon and Four Horses for each Twelve Wiles. Invalid Soldiers might be appointed Gate- keepers ; by which there would be a great Saving in Pensions ; and 2,864 would be provided for as Gate- keepers ; and 1,901 more as Stit- veyors. And this brings me to observe on the Hedges by the Sides of the Roads, which should never be suffered to be more than Four Feet high, and should be kept constantly shrouded ; and where any new Hedges are to be made they should be made at a Distance of Six Feet at least from the Margin of the Road, and in Ditches of the Depth of Two Feet, The Hedges would thrive better in this Situation than if on a Bank, as is the general Practice, and the Road be much less obstructed ; nor should there on any account be suffered to remain any Hedge Rows or Trees within Twelve Feet of the Margin of the Road. As I have already suggested, very great Savings might be made by the Alterations recom- mended in the present Plan of managing the Repair of the Roads, and the Revenue arising from them ; but much greater might be made if it were thought expedient and practicable to adopt the following Plan : If, instead of the present Labourers employed on the Road, Working Parties from the Army were allowed to perform that Labour, there would be no doubt of its being much better done, and at an infinitely cheaper Rate. Better, because Soldiers, being accustomed to Control, and to obey the Directions given them, would more readily adopt and follow any Orders that were given them, and, besides, might be under a regular Superintendence. And cheaper, because they would most cheerfully perform such Work upon an Addition of only IS. per Day to their Pay, whilst the Labourers now employed are paid Double that Sum ; whilst, from their being very little superintended, and being, from erroneous Notions, generally old Men, incapable of doing a good Day's Work, they seldom do Half what an able-bodied Man could do. The Saving thus obtained, which would be immense, will be hereafter shown. It is apprehended that there would be no Objection to this on the Part of the Soldiers, who, so far from its being necessary to compel them to do it, would readily engage in it ; and it should be held out to them rather as an Indulgence and an Encouragement to good Conduct than not ; and those Men only that were of good Character (particularly married Men) should be allowed to go on such Working Parties. If this Plan should be approved, others connected with it might also be adopted, namely, the Carriage of Materials, !kc. might all be performed by Waggons belonging to Government, and which, besides, would be ready at all Times to perform the Service of Baggage Waggons and any other Military Services. This would be most desirable as well as economical, as for both Purposes, the Road and the Army, Government could always resort to these prompt Means, instead of to those of the tardy and unwilling Farmer. It is apprehended that One Waggon and Four Horses would perform all the Work neces- sary on Twelve Miles of Road, besides the other Service pointed out; and thus, taking Winchester for an Example,yrow whence there are Seven Turnpike Roads, there -would be brought in, at a very short Notice, Seven Waggons for any Military Service ; and should more than One at a Time be wanted for any particular Service in any One Road, the Waggons from the other Roads could be taken there on those Occasions. It is true that a greater Proportion would be wanted near the Metropolis and other great Towns, but in these Places the Profits would be proportionably cheaper, and also more would be wanted for Military Services ; and should it be found that in some Places it would not be convenient nor economical for the Government to keep Waggons and Horses, they might always be hired when wanted. The Savings by these Waggons performing the Baggage Service will be fully explained in Appendix No. If, likewise, the Government should choose to keep the Collection of the Tolls in their o-wn Hands, instead of farming them out, either generally or partially, and to which there does not appear to be any Objection, at least not after they shall have ascertained their Value by once letting them where they have not already been let, it would be an excellent Provision for some of the most deserving invalid Soldiers to appoint them Gate-keepers, for which Places they would be particularly eligible ; and whilst it would be a most comfortable Asylum for them to look forward to, and an Incitement to good Conduct as Soldiers, it would save considerable Sums in Pensions ; and knowing that they would lose every thing by Misconduct it would almost insure their Fidelity. Upon an accurate Reference to the Road Book, there appears to be 22,912 Miles of Turn- pike Road in Great Britain ; and, supposing One Gate in Eight Miles, which is a moderate Average, this would make a comfortable Provision for 2,864 invalid Soldiers. This Plan might also be extended by making invalid Sergeants and Corporals, and others of the best-informed Soldiers, Surveyors of the Roads, of which there should be One for every Twelve Miles, and this would provide for 1,901 more. You are acquainted with the Gosport and Winchester and Petersfield Trusts, are you not ? I know them ; that is the last new Road, the Petersfield. The Amount of Debt in the Case of Gosport is 17,498/. ; that is, it was in the Year 1829, and the Excess of Expenditure in the same Year on the same Toll was 258/. ? I am wholly unacquainted with it ; it is called a V\^inchester Road j it is from Gosport to Alton. Is ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 159 IsitThirteen Miles Distance? Mr. G.' Horn. Yes ; it comes to Waltham ; it joins at Waltham. We have a Road called the Waltham Road. ^ Are we to understand you to be an Advocate for the Consolidation of the Turn- pike Trusts ? Yes, so far as relates to those Roads going from Winchester, and under the Control of the Winchester Trusts. Are you generally for the Consolidation of the Trusts ? I should think it would be better. How would you dispose of the Debts of Two Trusts circumstanced as the fol- lowing : in the Year 1829, that of the Winchester and Gosport and the Winchester and Petersfield ; the Winchester and Gosport being charged with a Debt of 17,500/., and the Winchester and Petersfield charged with a Debt of 5,900/i ? As I have told you, they do not at all belong to each other, and would not in a Consolidation. Would you name those that would, in a Consolidation, as connected with Winchester ? The Roads from Winton are those to Alton, Eighteen Miles. How are they designated in the Returns ? I apprehend as I now name them. Alton ; Popham Lane, that leads to Basing- stoke ; then Botley, that goes a little Way into the Southampton Road, and then turns oif; Petersfield, Romsey ; the North District of Southampton, that is midway between Winchester and Southampton, Six Miles ; Stockbridge, Nine Miles ; Waltham, Ten Miles ; Whitchurch, and to Newtown • River, Twenty-two Miles ; that leads both to Andover and to Whitchurch. How many Miles do you take ? The whole Twenty-two. The Meetings for some of these are occasionally held at different Towns on the Roads. There is a Meeting held at Alton ; the same Trusts at Petersfield j the Meeting is held at Bramdean. Are these all the Trusts you mean to point out ? Yes. Can you state the respective Debts from your Memorandum ? I have most of the Accounts here, from which I think I could give them. The Lower District, as it is called, which is the Alton Road, — on that District the Debt is 3,300/. That is the Mortgage Debt ? Yes ; it is the only Debt that I am aware of. The Popham Lane, which is called the Basingstoke, that is 4,850/. A very large Proportion of that Debt has been incurred lately in the Improvements that have been made. Has there been no Redemption of it ? No, there has been none paid off; the Money has been all laid out lately ; then there is the North District of the Southampton Road, the first District from Win- chester, which is 3,520/. Stockbridge is 800/. ; that is rather a poor Road, and not much travelled upon. The Waltham is 1,500/.; there has been none borrowed there lately, I believe. Those Three Trusts, as 1 observed before, are under One Act ; the rich Road has lent occasionally to the poor one. It is only Eight Miles as it is designated here ? It is Ten Miles. What is the Debt upon the Romsey ; that is a bad Road, is it not ? I do not know. That Road is entirely under the Management of Sir William Heathcoate ; that Family are the Holders of most of the Mortgages. The Whit- church Debt is the last ; that is 3,500/. Is it the Newbury Road ? Yes. Are those all upon which you can give any Information ? Yes. (24.) U4 Then 160 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Mr. G. HollU. Then the highest Debt is that upon the Popham Lane, which is 4,850/., and the "~~~— " lowest is on the Stockbridge Road, which is 800/. ?• Yes ; the Stockbridge has not been altered at all ; there has nothing material been done there. Supposing these different Trusts were consolidated, in what Manner would you dispose of the Debt ? I should think the Debt should remain on each Road, and there may be a separate Account kept of the Receipts and Expenditure of each Road ; that is not at all necessary to be altered, only the general Direction and Management might be under One Set of Trustees at One Meeting. We now meet monthly upon our Road, the first Saturday in every Month. That would necessarily prevent any Equalization of the Tolls, which would necessarily be a Desideratum ? I do not see it would necessarily interfere. When the Debt is large^ the Toll must be kept up necessarily ; but when the Debt is low, the Toll need not be in the same Proportion ? We must get rid of our Debt first. I was going to observe, that the Road I have been Clerk to, which begins at Popham Lane, and goes down near to Wim- bourn in Dorsetshire, it goes through Winchester, Romsey, and Ringwood ,to Wimbourn, The Witness is directed to withdraw. Rev. E. Duke. The Reverend EDWARD DUKE is called in, and examined as follows : Where do you reside ? At Lake near Amesbury in Wiltshire. Have you been Chairman of the Amesbury Trust ? Yes, I have. Do you believe that Statute Duty is absolutely necessary in order to enable you to keep the Road in repair? Yes, I do ; it could not possibly be done without. You have a large Debt, I believe ? Yes, a Debt of upwards of 5,800/. What is your annual Expenditure ? That I do not precisely recollect. I recollect perfectly well this, that the Interest assigned to the Creditors the other Day was only 150/., and the Expence of keeping the Road in repair is done at somewhat less than 3/. a Mile. Is the Amesbury Road kept in repair by Contract? No ; we have a Surveyor immediately under us. Up to what Time Is your Debt calculated ? A few Weeks since. It has increased, then, since the Year 1829? Yes. By the Interest not being paid ? Yes. Do_ you conceive that repairing Roads under a Surveyor is a better Plan than repairing them by Contract? So far as my own Observation goes, I should say that it is far better. Do you know any Case in point ? Yes, I know a Case exactly in point. This Road, of which I am Chairman, which passes through Amesbury to the West of England, crosses at Right Angles another Turnpike Road leading from Salisbury to Devizes, that Turnpike Road standing under the precise Circumstances of the Amesbury Road, which Road is repaired by a Contractor at an Expence of 10/. a Mile. Although the Road is less travelled upon, yet.it is in worse Repair, and all the Circumstances relative to the Materials and - ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 161 and to the Labour with regard to the Two Roads are precisely the same. Another Rev.E. Duke. Branch of that District, leading from Salisbury towards Warminster on the Bath "— ^ Roadj is repaired at a. still greater Expence, partly at an Expence of about 52/. a Mile, the Average through that District being 26/. a Mile. Are you speaking now of the annual Repairs ? Yes, of the annual Repairs under a Contractor of that Road. Is there any Reason why more Money should be expended upon that Road than this? There is no Reason certainly why that should be the Case. It is also the Case as to the Road from Fisherton to Devizes, that Road standing under precisely the same Circumstances as the Amesbury Road, crossing at Right Angles. And having the same Quantity of Materials at hand ? Exactly so, in all respects- Is there more TraiBck upon the one than upon the other ? There is more Traffick upon the Amesbury Road. Is not the Amesbury Road Fifty Miles in Length ? Yes. Are not the Tolls upon the Amesbury Road only 700/. a Year ? I do not suppose they are more. Do you consider that a Road of much TrafEck ? More than the other. The Warminster is a Road of very great TrafEck, is it not ? Yes. In the Return there is yysL, a Sum equal to the Tolls collected, which are due, but not paid, in Michaelmas 1829; the Total Receipt is 708/., and the Total due, but unpaid, is 775/. ? I think I can account for that Circumstance. I was sitting as the Chairman at the Time of the letting of the Tolls ; the Bidders were running over each other's Heads very much, and I, by way of a Joke or a Jest at the Time, said, you may as well come up to 1,000/. at once ; and a Man, I think of the Name of Palmer, immediately bid 1,000/., and the Trustees kept him to his Bargain, but we never got the Money. That acccounts for that Circumstance in the Return. Did he not furnish Sureties for the Payment of the Money ? 1 do not recollect how that was. Are you in the habit of letting the Tolls for One Year, or for more than a Year ? For One Year. And do they not undertake to pay a Sum in advance ? Yes, they do. How much ? I do not recollect precisely. Did the Person you were speaking of state that he did not mean it as a Bidding ? He stated afterwards it was an En-or. Have the Trustees taken any Measures to compel it ? No ; the Trustees released him, thinking it was an Error on his Part. Then who became the Lessee of the Road ? He and his Brother. And at what Rent? That I do not now remember. Did he continue to be Lessee of the Road for any Length of Time ? No ; I think only for that Year. ^ And there was a Defalcation of 775/.? , ^c, • I think there was. There may have been perhaps some other Defalcations upon some other Turnpikes upon the Road. I do not know that it all arose upon that . > (24.) X ^omx. 162 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Rev. E. Duke. Point. I do not know that this is precisely the Year, but from the Largeness of the Sum I conclude that that Sum formed a Portion of it. Are you in the habit of letting the Tolls without taking Security from the Lessees ? No. Might not this Sum be accounted for by the Tolls not having been paid 'till a Day or Two after that Annual Meeting ? That may be the Case. You stated that the general Income was somewhere about 700/. ? I think it is. In the Abstract of the Return of the Year 1829 the Gross Income is stated at 1,483/., or nearly Double what the usual Income is? Yes, certainly j nearly Double, or quite Double. You do not know how that arose ? I cannot state precisely. Are you in the habit, upon your Road, of taking any Parish Compositions ? Never. Do you make the Persons work out their Statute Labour ? Yes, always. Are you acquainted with the Road for the whole Length of the Fifty Miles ? Yes. You are the Chairman of the General Meeting ? Yes. When was the Act of Parliament obtained ? The Act of Parliament was obtained, I cannot state in what Year, but certainly since the last General Act. I well recollect that several Trusts became disqualified in consequence of it. Why do you not take a Composition instead of Statute Labour ? The Reason why we do not, in fact, is, that we have not got Conveyance for the Materials. I consider that upon that Road we inevitably must have Statute Duty to keep the Road in Order. It passes over a very wild Country, and the Farmers adjoining the Road are generally a very wealthy Set of Men, who would not let their Teams out for Hire. Then they conceive that to be obliged to perform Statute Labour is a great Grievance ? I believe they do. May they perform their Statute Labour at that Period of the Year which jthey prefer ? They are usually called upon at the most convenient Times ; the Surveyors consult their Convenience very much. Is not that Convenience generally the Day of the breaking up of a Frost, when they cannot make use of their Teams in their Farms ? Yes. Do they not, therefore, do nearly as much Harm to the Road as the Materials do good ? I do not think the Observation is accurate, as applied to the Road through my Neighbourhood, on account of its being so open a Country, because the Farmers could take the Materials to the Road without passing much on the Road ; and a Neighbour of mine always makes a point, in case of being shut up by Frost, of doing the Statute Duty in preference of letting his Horses remain in Idleness in the Stable. Does not Mr. Duke find, as Magistrate and Chairman of these Trusts, that the Time of the Year-at which most of the Statute Duty is done is towards Michaelmas, previous to the Waywarden's Accounts being made out ? Yes. Can ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 163 Can you furnish the Committee with a Statement of the Number of Statute Days Rev. E. Duke Duty done dunng the last Year ? . Noj I cannot. Could you obtain such an Account ? Yes. This Line of Road passes through a great many Parishes, does it not ? A great many. You would, in those Instances where the Individuals do not furnish Statute Lrbour, require a Composition, would you not ? Ce tain y. Is there no Composition required from thosfe Individuals who do not furnish Statute Labour? Upon the Amesbury Road all the Individuals have been in the habit of furnishing Statute Labour. All the Individuals w pay Rates are liable to Statute Duty, are they not, or a Composition ? Yes. There must be some who necessarily must pay a Composition if they are called upon ? The Farmers are called upon by the Surveyors to do a certain Duty. How is it with respect to Labourers and with respect to Handicraft-men ? They are never called upon. Then you never call upon the Farmers ? It is only confined to the Farmers. Pray does any Mail Coach run along this Line of Road ? No Mail Coach ; Two or Three Coaches do. When did the great Expenditure of this 28,900/., the Mortgage Debt, take place ? I suppose that was at the first making of the Road. At what Period was that ? I do not know. The Road was made under the old Duchess of Queensberry ; the Executors of the late Duke of Queensberry are the Creditors, and I am informed that they would sell the Debt now for about 3,000/. Is not the TrafEck greatly increased on that Line of Road since the Western Road? ^ Certainly. Has not that increased the Tolls ? Certainly it has. To any great Extent ? ^^ „ . . Yes, I should think in the Progress of the last Two or Three Years it is to a great Extent. In what Proportion ? , . , . . • , About 100/. or 150/. Our Tolls are not very high, and not so high as most Turnpike Roads. We charge only id. a Horse. ^ince the Year 1829 they have increased 150/. you think? I do not know since that, but prior to that they have. Are the Tolls on that Line of Road raised to the greatest Extent allowed by the Act of Parliament ? , r., „ • 'i I believe not ; the Tolls are lower than the Tolls m general. Lower than this Act would justify ? That I do not recollect. You mentioned in the former Part of your Evidence that there was a Person who took the Tolls, and that he did not pay the Money. Do you recollect that Man s Name? I think it was Palmer, but I am not quite certain. (24.) X 2 Was 164 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Ber. E. Duke. Was it not Thomas Barfoot ? '- I do not recollect his Name, it was so many Years ago. I have a very indistinct Recollection of it. Have you any Statement to make respecting the Fisherton and Devizes Trust ? It is One Trust ; One Line goes to Bath, and the other to Devizes. What you are going to say applies to both ? I attended a Meeting the other Day at the Deptford Inn, in consequence of an Advertisenlent which appeared in the Salisbury Journal, calling a Meeting to consider the Propriety of dispensing with the Statute Duty. I attended that Meeting, and I was requested to take the Chair. The Meeting was attended by many of the Trustees, but principally Farmers. A Motion was made that the Statute Duty should be dispensed with along the whole Line of the Road, and it was carried, although I remonstrated against it, and stated my Opinion of its Illegality, there being no such. Power in the Act of Parliament. Do you mean that Statute Duty should be dispensed with without substituting' Composition ? Without substituting Composition. It was carried, and the Advertisement now stands in the Newspaper for fresh taking the Repairs of the Road by Contract, Statute Duty not being allowed, nor Composition. Another Circumstance, if I may be allowed to state it with reference to that Road, and which I should hope to see corrected, is this, that the Farmers constituting the Majority of the Trustees divide the Road into Districts, and appoint themselves honorary Surveyors ; and if a Complaint is made of the ill Repair of any Part of the Road, the whole of them come to defend their defaulting Colleague, thereby creating themselves Masters and Servants without any Responsibility. To obviate such an Evil, which may possibly apply to other Trusts, if I may with Deference be allowed to suggest a Clause to obviate that Evil, I would beg leave to suggest that it should be incompetent for any Trustee to take the Office of Surveyor, either with or without Salary. Is it legal now ; can they legally act now in the joint Capacity of Surveyor and Trustee ? Yes. They cannot act as Clerk and Treasurer ? \ No, not as Clerk and Treasurer ; they are disconnected. It is certainly greatly complained of, because this particular Act of Parliament being under the old Act 5 and therefore the Farmers, most of them being qualified, they outvote the Gentlemen in the Neighbourhood. How are the Trustees chosen under the Act ? Under the General Act. I fancy they are nominated upon the Deaths- of Parties. By themselves ? Yes. Do you not conceive that it is very natural for these Farmers who live upon the Line of Road to wish to act as Honorary Surveyors, so that they may call their Teams ro do the Statute Duty when it is most convenient to themselves ? Certainly. Is not that, therefore, a great Inducement to these Gentlemen to act as Surveyors ? Certainly. They are all the Farmers upon that Line, you say ? Yes ; they are all Farmers upon the Line. They did Statute Duty in the Year 1 829 ? They do not do it, neither Statute Duty nor Composition. With a Debt of about 7,000/. ? About 6,000/. What do the Creditors say ? I am not a Creditor. The Country Gentlemen upon the Line are very much dissatisfied, and the Farmers carry every thing their own Way. Do you know Mr. Hetley ? Yes, perfectly well. What ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 165 - What is he ? Rev. E. Duke, He is a Banker. f Is he in the habit of being Chairman ? I believe sometimes he is. He is a respectable Man ? A very respectable Man. I would pass an Observation, if the Committee will allow me, relative to Statute Duty ; if the Statute Duty is called for the Act is very vague, and it is generally executed in a very irregular Manner. Sometimes very wealthy Farmers are the Persons to do it, and the Surveyors are afraid to compel them to perform their Statute Duty ; the Duty is very irregularly performed, and there appears to me to be a great Want of a regular System, and it has struck me — I know not whether I am correct — that there may be Evils arising out of it. It has struck me that this would be a good Plan, namely, if the Surveyors were empowered, if necessary, to call on the Turnpike Road for Half the Statute Duty, leaving the other Three Days to be performed in the common Highways ; and that the Magis- trates of the Division, at their General Meeting for the Appointment of Surveyors of the Highways, should be empowered to call for the Attendance of the Surveyors of the Turnpike Road to produce a Check Book of each Composition and of the Duty ; and that if the Magistrates should find the Duty is irregularly done, that they should take Measures to obviate that Complaint, or to punish the Fault either of Neglect of Duty or Payment of Composition, and to inflict a Penalty in case of Neglect or Refusal. In point of fact, does any Surveyor of a Turnpike Trust dare to give Offence to the Neighbourhood of which he is a Surveyor ? Dare to give Offence ? I do not think he does. Have you any further Statement to make ? I would mention the Subject of Bridges. I believe it has occurred of late Years that it is a common Thing to throw the Expence of Bridges upon the Counties ; the Expence of Bridges is considered a great Burthen upon the County ; and, with Deference to the Committee, I beg leave to suggest, whether it would not be proper that the Repairs should; be done mutually between the County and the Trustees. I am not quite certain how the Law stands relative to the Roads at the Ends of Bridges upon Turnpike Roads ; with respect to the common Highways and Bridges, I am well aware that the Road at each End, to the Extent of Three hundred Feet, belongs to the County ; that is a Grievance to complain of. If the same Law pertains to the Turnpike Roads, I should judge it would be very expe- dient to throw the Repairs of the Roads at the Ends of the Bridges on the Turn- pike Trusts, for, on account of the Distance from each other, there is great Difficulty in appointirig a Person to superintend these' Repairs. A Circumstance occurred a few Years ago, in which, in the Case of a great Fall of Snow upon that Road, namely, the Fisherton and Warminster Road, the Farmers Labourers were em- ployed to dig out the Snow, and we had Bills brought in to the Amount of upwards of 150/. at the Expence of the Trust. That was by the Permission of the Trustees ? Yes ; the great Farmers all acting as Trustees and Honorary Surveyors. I do not mean to say that there was positive Wrong and Injustice done, because I have no Means of proving that, but I mean to say that it opened a great Field for not quite honourable Conduct, because at that Time they were out of Employ, and the longer they were employed the more profitable it was for the Parish. I do not mean to say that that was the Case. By whom were those Labourers employed to dig out the Snow ? They were employed, I should suppose, by the Honorary Surveyors. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Monday, the loth of June next, at One o'Clock. (24.) X ^ ( 167 ) Die LuncBy \T Junii 1833. The Duke of RICHMOND in the Chain Evidence on ^ Turnpike Road Trusts. Mr. MICHAEL IRISH is called in, and further examined as follows : Mr. M. Irish. You were ordered by this Committee, on the 6th of May last, to revise and correct the Returns contained in the printed Report of the House of Commons of 1821, relating to Turnpike Roads ; have you gone through the same according to the Orders you received ? I have. Deliver in the same ? In delivering in the same, I beg leave to observe to your Lordships that I have prepared an Abstract thereof, which will be found to correspond with those Returns as revised and corrected by your Lordships Order. The said Returns as revised, and the said Abstract, are delivered in, and read, and are as follow : {See Papers (A.) and (B.) 168 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Paper (A.) ENGLAND. i General Summary of Returns respecting Turnpike Roads in England Being the COUNTIES. Acts of Parliament TRUSTS. ^ Income above Expenditure. Expenditure above Income. Income Income and and Expenditure Expenditure could not be are equal. ascertained. Total. Distance. Bedford . . . 44 8 £ 505 7 539 . 15 Miles. , 238 , Berks 67 11 1,043 ^ 8 747 - 1 20 319 Bucks 23 9 576 3 387 - 1 13 165 Cambridge . . - 40 10 2,891 5 304 - . 15 278 ■ Chester - - 67 19 1,861 4 690 1 3 27 349 ',', Cornwall - - . 40 8 1,057 4 122 - - 12 318 "; Cumberland 32 8 622 5 329 . 1 14 215 Derby - - 99 26 ,4,028 10 1,386 - 4 40 574 , Devon ... 60 16 2,111 8 2,780 . 1 25 782 ' ' Dorset - - - - 35 5 508 7 676 1 - 13 359 ,, Durham ... 26 10 ' 2,285 4 325 . 1 15 Essex 26 10 3,741 1 19 . • 11 249 . Gloucester - - - 95 30 5,791 15 1,629 2 4 51 840 ,, Hants . - 73 18 1,579 12 1,818 . 1 31 810 ^ Hereford ... 32 7 963 5 498 1 1 14 553 170 Hertford 30 3 390 6 332 - - 9 Huntingdon 16 6 , 481 3 559 - * ■■ 9 146 ,' Kent - - - . 111 29 2,939 18 2,259 . 1 48 586 Lancaster - - - 97 28 7,910 16 5,760 2 5 51 631 Leicester 67 15 1,762 8 1,015 . 1 24 445 ,; Lincoln 70 17 3,624 10 1,011 . . 27 538 .1 Middlesex - . - 63 15 10,963 5 1,538 . - 20 158 Monmouth ... 19 7 2,140 2 96 • . 9 315 ,i Norfolk 37 11 2,019 3 143 - . 14 271 i Northampton ... 44 9 1,102 12 7,752 - . 21 358 ! Northumberland 33 9 964 7 1,299 . . 16 479 ; Notts - - 43 11 2,660 7 V 559 - . 18 302 Oxford - . - . 44 12 1,963 6 . 985 « _ 18 342 Rutland ... 2 Nil. Nil. 1 112 . . 1 18 Salop - - 94 28 2,131 14 1,371 - - 42 ' 988 Somerset ... 42 11 2,331 6 835 - 1 18 746 Stafford - - - 104 23 3,554 13 1,108 2 . 38 630 Suffolk - - 28 11 1,168 2 82 • . 13 279 ( Surrey - ... 36 12 5,270 ■ 4 278 . 17 281 i Sussex 99 29 5,351 9 . 623 2 41 623 Warwick 85 18 1,004 10 852 1 30 477 \Vestmoreland 26 6 562 3 65 1 11 284 Wilts - - - . 94 20 2,469 13 1,219 . 34 768 Worcester 56 14 3,964 9 588 . . _ 23 565 1 York - - . Income not brought into Charge^ and Interest not brought into > Charge in the Expenditure -J Totals 247 51 10,448 33 4,804 - 3 88 1,448 2,346 590 106,730 318 47,494 14 33 956 18,244 PN TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 169 ■ ENGLAND. Paper (A.) ^Eesults of a Revisal and Correction of the. Returns presented to the House of Commons in 1821.- ' DEBTS !. INCOME. Balances due to Trusts. Nett Debts. Expendi- ture. Income above Expendi- Expendi- ture above 1 ortgage. Floating. Unpaid Interest. Balances due from Trusts. Total. Tolls. Parish Compo- Total. sition. ture. Income. £ 49,082 £ 1,934 6,902 £ 105 £ 58,023 £' 3,538 ■£■ 54,485 . £ 17,659 £ 324 £ 17,983 - £ 17,993 £ £ 10 ;54,544 i 4,061 4,348 222 ' " 63,175 6,056 57,119 15,388 Nil. 15,388 15,092 296 „ 23,900 69,897 1,590 8,590 Nil. 34,080 3,188 30,892 15,440 Nil. 15,440 15,251 189 . 1.607 23,833 768 96,105 9,505 86,600 17,163 178 17,341 14,754 2,587 , 90,952 1,336 3,218 1,000 96,506 4,668 91.838 16,525 . Nil. 16,525 15,354 1,171 i f 35,586 1,108 4,258 825 41,777 ■ 828 40,94"9 8,623 104 8,727 7,792 935 , , 29,659 Nil. 1,648 684 31.991 2,360 29,63L. 6,417 .Nil, ■ -6,417 6,124 293 1 217,448 20,404 71,042 6,917 315,811 7,208 308,603 21,103 Nil. 21,103 17,952 3,151 , 84,830 10,719 12,019 2,760 210-,328 6,940 203,388 28,934 Nil. 28,934 29,603 . 669 40,228 1,325 1,188 Nil. 42-,74l 3,799 38,942 10,189 Nil. 10,189 10,357 - 168 62,069 1,466 13.626 872 78,033 3,229 74,804 18,480 140" 18,620 1 6,660 1,960 , 20,350 878 2,620 Nil. . 23,848 13,377 10,471 27,269 Nil. 27,269 23,655 3,614 76,601, 5,873 6,426 1,308 190,208 6,866 183,342 50,414 52 50,466 46,154 4,312 _ 91,309 5,824 15.012 632 112,777 6,174 106.603 26,361 Nil. 26,361 26,590 . 229 35,991 951 831 490 38,263 1,292 36,971 13,576 ■Nil. 13,576 12,650 926 _ 36,485 1,436 664 25 38,610 4,972 33,638 22,79i> Nil. 22,799 24,551 .- . 1,752 28,577 1,959 1,091 2,696 34,323 1,644 32,679 8,920 75 8,995 9,073 . 78 80,417 7.783 29,321 679 218,200 15,089 203,111 55,170 696 55,86-6 , 55,067 72,574 799 52,772 34,424 26,146 1,846 415,188 13,987 401,201 74.724 Nil. 74,724 2,150 — 63,918 1,430 7,248 410 73,006 5,642 67,364 18,167 486 18,653 17,906 ■ - 747 — 08,278 3,855 20,108 707 132,948 8,560 124,388 24,539 828 25,367 22,752 2,615 96,625 9,245 6,182 Nil. 312,052 24,169 287,883 95,475 Nil. 95,475 86,050 9,425 47,743 303 2,787 16 ' - 5"0,849 6,489 44,360 ■ 7,971 Nil. 7,971 7,116 855 — 43,083 2,032 2,078 397 47,590 5,112 42,478 8,819 223 - - 9,042 7,166 1,876 — 73,800 1,008 21,381 186 96,375 3,830 92,545 18,667 133 18,800 25,450 - 6,650 70,613 6,870 11,214 833 89,530 2,789 86,741 13,229 82 13,311 14,272 - 961 77,193 320 9,831 7 87,351 6,532 80,819 12,529 61 12,590 10,789 1,801 — 70,170 1,846 9,996 2,013 "84,025 4,349 79,676 20,875 73 20,948 19,770 1,178 — Nil. Nil. Nil. Nil. Nil. Nil. Nil. 466 Nil. 466 578 - 112 87,401 2,859 7,234 615 98,109 6,738 91,371 20,061 Nil. 20,061 19,301 760 — 92,232 3,993 4,297 1,928 302,450 10,378 292,072 .38,341 631 38,972 36,845 2,127 — 27,723 9,385 13,356 1,523 ' 151,987 1 1,354- 140,633 28,973 36 29,009 26,590 2,419 — 26,935 834 1,760 486 30,015 4,749 25,266 9,591 Nil. 9,591 8,505 1,086 — 126,798 6,305 14,760 Nil. 147,863 7,896 139,967 50,389 Nil. 50,389 44,39^ 5,992 — k72.764 9,236 35,610 439 218,049 9,575 208,474 31,21,2 137 31,349 26,730 4,619 — 79,090 4,935 9,660 3,137 96,822 4,433 92,389 20,958 224 21,182 21,03Q 152 — 34,787 367 1,086 124 36,364 3,665 32,699 6,091 Nil.' 6,091 7,296 - . 1,205 195,652 7,484 36,257 3,188 242,581 4,506 238,075 42,328 Nil. 42,328 41,008 1,320 — 77,855 1,908 8,422 1,383 89,568 4,097 • 85,471 25,983 Nil. 25,983 22,877 3,106 — 126,494 22,695 68,475 9,983 527,647 20,828 506,81-9 89,629 •Nil. ^■' 89,639 86,050 3,579 — 2 i - - - - - - - 7,351 - - 7,351 9,618 — 79,85] 201,588 524,525 49,204 5,055,168 270,411 4,784i857 1,046,828 4,483 1,051,311 999,342 66,040 11,834 ■ (21) ITO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE COMMITTEE Paper (A.) — continued. ENGLAND. Abstract of Returks relative to Debts, Expenditure, Income, &c. of the Turnpike Roads, for the Year ending 1821. REVISED. Number of Turnpike Trusts - 956 | Distance - 18,244 Miles | Number of Acts of Parliament, 2,346, 590 Trusts — the Income exceeds the Expenditure by - 318 Trusts — the Expenditure exceeds the Income by - • 14 Trusts — the Income and Expenditure were equal. 33 Trusts — the Income and Expenditure could not be ascertained. .£106,730 47,494 Mortgage. Floating. Unpaid Interest. Balances due from Trusts. Gross Debts. Balances due to Trusts. Net Debts. DEBTS £ 4,279,851 £ 201,588 £ 524,525 £ 49,204 £ 5,055,168 £ 270,411 £ 4,784.857 • ToUs, &c. Parish Compositions. Total. INCOME £ 1,046,828 £ 4,483 1,051,311 Expenditure. Interest not brought into Account, but now charged. Net Expenditure. EXPENDITURE - £ 989,724 £ 9,618 £ 999,342 Income Expenditure £ ' 1,051,311 - 999,342 51,969 Income above Expenditure. ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 171 •5S s ei CO 'a V ■4-> c o m CL, CO S 3 (U P^ 0) 2 o O s m '> o ^^ Ph 00 ii .5 o s^ •SB o P^ HH CW « fee a .4-) CJ, cu CL, m t3 H C5 Cm O Pi D CO w O 1 1 1 i «^S 5 I 1 1 2 to 1 1 1 1 1 <31 _, W M S g ^ • S t fl a» =t? 1 s p 2 1 ■ ^ oq V5 CO o oo -^^1^ o> to s OS r-( o CO to to --1 \ I> ___ w 00 "i to 00 f-l CO to W5 tN - o g CO 00 to t^ to » ^ ^ ■a 1-1 t-^ ■* « to of to to OI 00 to •g o S o f^ c3 -s B :£ E3 3 '^ ~ d d d d n3 d . o ^ ;z; ^ J5 'A jz; z z Z z z Z z i> 01 (N 00 00 s ^ o o 1 g =« S «1 !> 1— '^ 0? to to- CO to 00 to 00 r-t CO 1 1 to V5 m 00 00 -d< ■* o ^ to to 00 Ol o? CM QO to 00 00 01 (O cq' oT 04 t-l to I-H 1 CM §3 (M Balances due to Trusts. 52 ■<*< to tH to CO t^ o Ol to i> OI =« 2 CT CO to t- OI ^ t* P-H 0? 00 •o rH to CO^ r-l * to « ■* « o t^ l> ^ Tt< o3 CO Ol ■* to CO o> i^ e5 to oT ;- "i o> o^ to 00 S" CO tf? r-i I-H CO CM Balances due from Trusts. «« 3 o rf to 1> 00 1-1 o =33 to I-H CN of of CO co CO £>b "3 ^ g 2 g g i 00 to to CO § 2 ^ g to E ri 1 O »o ^ O) o 1-1 0? iS CO CM % ■ to* S CN S 5(1 "fl Ci o OS at to to ui ,-, O CO o o .2 IN to >o rH to 00 to lO t^ Ui g i-H >— t 1— ( ■^ rH 04 to 3 ^ rH rH CO 00 ^ rH 05 t< CO to to J> i 1 ^ ^ .-3 ot t~ CO ■* rt t~ ■* o ■* „ CO pq |Zi z " s ^ i S < £ a m PH »o CT ■* r- CT to w to rH « O 00 CJl CO -« 1 1 1 1 ' 1 1 ' ' 1 1 ' 1 M H o < ;0 1 i Q p3 (A 3 .4-> GO -*-> 00 I-H B B o •r-< * in n3 o rrt S-) Cu r/l O « n> oqK u ei 4-1 >^ O o a .r: ;-> ■<-> 3 4J ^ +J § B H i o r! < fl) o .^ 0:5 H ^ >-i &c Oi !2 Of « 00 D I-H H J2 >-< -IJ (D ^4-1 .C O 4-> t.1 td n a^ Q (75 12; •. T3 0) -4-9 w 0) l-p^ Sm c o C3 o ^ M b] re ^ O o 0) -4.J iz; l-H ft 4^ r^ ca Fh n w i+H ft o tr, V5 O (t1 a; H CO o H o r> ja »H H < Pi <1 CL| S o U i CO 2 "3 TT 00 o «^ (7s o a O CO !Z! lO t^ o I^ 1 to to '^ CO o 00 00 (N TT ^ »S . rears of T and Parish ompositio former Ye %J s to o o t^ < "^ Z « . o '^ c ja-B '3 3 CO ♦J 00 •C O 3 5 o S ^ 0) 00 O O •= ;?; due, paid. d 3 o> 3 a 3 **} cT ^ 3 o CO ^; ». °> O' to lance in surer ands. / to CO "^ r oo « |« 00 to CO iS n _ OS t^ •^ 1— t P ^ O iO i CO 00 P5 t^ o urj l:^ ® uS o'a fc f^ (^ alanc to asure t^ -. f^ OS 2 3. 3 S4 ««i ^ 3 3 ^W 3 o iz; of Management of Roads, - - -J who should have the Power of auditing, Mode of making out, should be made up to one particular Day in the 1 Year, J ought to be made up monthly. Names of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. Irish, Irish, M'Adam, Macneill, Irish, J.M'Adam, Dacre, Bicknell, should be examin ined by an Officer appointed by \ g;gjjj)gi[ ster General, - -/ Treasury or Postmaster i Act, General Turnpike, allows a Reduction of Toll on Cylin- ) drical Wheels, - - - - - / as to Amendment or Consolidation of. i } to consolidate Roads North of the Thames, passed 7G. 4., \ and Reasons for — amended by 10 G. 4., -J for improving Blackheath Hill on the New Cross Trust, for better Management of Roads, proposed by Wil- 1 liam M'Adam Esquire, - - -/ Acts, Local, for Turnpike Roads, necessary in some Cases, - for Turnpike Roads, average Cost of, 4001. for Roads, Fees on, are now paid out of the Consolidated 1 Fund, - - - - - -J Payment of Fees on, out of the Consolidated Fund, does not increase their Number, are now passed for Thirty-one Years, Acts of Parliament, for Roads, Number and Cost of, since the first Formation of Turnpike Roads, Expenceof 128, in 1829, - - - - Clauses proposed for any new Turnpike Act, Alton Road, good State of Finances of, - - ,- Debt of, is .£3,300, Amesbury Road, Statute Duty absolutely necessary on, Debt, .£54,225, - - - Debt of, is £5,800, . - - . Mortgage Debt on, is ^28,900, . Expence per Mile of Repairs, . - - Income of, is £700 per Annum, - - - 1 Balance in the Treasurer's Hand, £240, Analysis of proposed System for the better Management of | the Turnpike Roads, - - - -J (24.) A a Stokes, Bicknell, Vise. Lowther, Stokes, Dacre, Vise. Lowther, Bicknell, M'Adam, Bicknell, Irish, Bicknell, Bicknell, Vise. Lovi^ther, Irish, Irish, Stokes, J. M'Adam, Hollis, Duke, Bicknell, Duke, Duke, Duke, Bicknell, Duke, Bicknell, ' Irish, 25. 167 to 179. 148. 136. 26.27. 81. 120. 23. 23. 24. 25. 107- 19. 52. 115. 117. 121. to 125. 119. 120. 45. 46. 49. 9, 10. 141. to 151. 19. 27. 16. 24. 51. 57. 54 to 56. 117. 123. 76. 159. 160. 162. 163. 21. 160, 163. 160. 21. 162. 21. 64. 65. C 186 ) General Heads. Names of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. Annual Returns. (See Returns,) Annuities. (See Life Annuities.) AsHTON Kames Road, . . - - Assistant or Sub-Surveyor. (See Surveyor.) Auditing Accounts, who should have the Power of, Aynho, Division of Burford, Chipping Norton, Banbury, Pay-") ment for Eating and Drinking, £14 lis. 5d., -f Bevir, Macneill, Irish, - 89. 136. 31. B. Balance in Treasurer's Hands. (See under the Names of respective Trusts.) Balances, Total of, iti all the Treasurers Hands, is i^361,836, Ballast. (See Materials for Roads.) Bank, Advantage of Office of Treasurer being executed bya"! Bank instead of by an Individual, of England, Money received and paid by, on Metropo- litan Roads, .... (See Commercial Road.) Barking Road, Income ^1,410, Debt £o4,&39, in Trea- 1 surer's Hands ^2,493, - - J Bath Road, Debt ^27,220, Expenditure above Income") .£1,143 3j!.3d., Balance inTreasurer'sHands £4,539, J Bishopsgate Street and Bethnal Green Trusts abolished, Blackburn and Preston Trust, in 1825, borrowed of the") Exchequer Bill Commissioners £10,000, - -J Blackheath Hill Improvement, Toll for, . Sum paid for the Purchase of Houses, and Improve-") ment of, - - - - / Board of Commissioners, as to attending Quarterly Meetings'* of Trustees, and the Powers they should be invested > with, - - - -J as to distinct Branches of, for Government of Roads, to report annually to Parliament, . - - in London, should have Power to require Trustees to") dismiss any Officer, - - -S Board of Control of Turnpike Roads, if appointed, from what") Funds to be paid, - - - -J Board of General Superintendence of Turnpike Roads, as | to Appointment of, to whom Reports should be< sent instead of to Clerks of Peace, - - ! Bourne and Spalding Trust. (See Spalding.) Bradford Trust. (See Thornton — Eccleshill.) Brentford is lighted and watched by the Metropolitan Road") Trust, - - -J as to a new Line of Road at, is macadamized, ... Bridges, as to their Connection with Turnpike Trusts, Repairs of Roads at End of, as to throwing them on ") Turnpike Trusts, - - - - J Bromley Road (in New Cross Trust), Reasons why the Im- 1 provenients have not been carried into execution, - J Broughton Trust. (See Colne.) Buxton Road. (See Manchester and Buxton.) Irish, J. M'Adam, - Vise. Lowther, Bi6knell, 27. 52. I- Vise. Lowther, 47. 20. Irish, - - 31. 32. Vise. Lowther, 45. Irish, - - 36. . Bicknell, - 9. 10. Bicknell, - 16. 18.22 Stokes, - 110. 11 Iv Macneill, . 136. W. M'Adam, - 151. W. M'Adam, - 151. J. M'Adam, _ 93. W. M'Adam, - 142. 144. Bicknell, . 25. J. M'Adam, . 93. 97. Macneill, . 136. W. M'Adam, - 142. Vise. Lowther, 50. Vise. Lowther, 50. J. M'Adam, - 80. Bicknell, 25. Duke, - 165. Bicknell, 12. 20, Cambridge Road, Finances of, are in a good State, Carriages on Road.', as to lighting of,' during the Night, to") prevent Accidents, - - - - / (See Wheels.) Cart Wheels, Breadth of, in Scotland and Ireland, Chesterfield and Matlock Bridge Road, Tolls £428, Balance in Treasurer's Hands ^406, Debt £24,128 :} J. M'Adam, 76. Stokes, 111. Macneill, 128. Bicknell, 20. General Heads. ( 187 ) Chesterfield and Worksop Road, Tolls ^741, Debt! ^20,880, - - . . ./ (See fFootton Bassett.) Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Trust, Clerk of, doesT not receive any Salary, - - - - J Debt of, - - . . .' Trust is under very good Management, City Road, State of, - - - Clauses proposed for any nevy Turnpike Act, Clerks of Roads not making Returns within Thirty Daysl Irish, after Audit forfeit ^50, - . . '-J " ' Coach Owners Memorial on bad State of Middlesex and 1 Essex Roads, - - . _ . . j CoATE Road. (See Marlborough.) Coj.NE and Broughton Trust borrowed in 182G of the Exchequer Bill Commissioners ^2,500, mes of Witnesses and Page of Evidence Bicknell, - 20. Bevir, . 86. 90. Bevir, . 89. Bevir, - 90. J. M'Adam, - 75. Stokes, - 117. Irish, * 33. Bevir, - 87. Dacre, - fll5. 117. 121 1 to 125. Commercial Trust Road, Length of. Two Miles, Cost of, per Mile, Debt and Interest, ' Trust' Branch Roads are, the East India Dock Road, ' One Mile, - - . . . ■ — — the Barking Road, Four Miles, -' . - the Cannon Street Road, - - * the Mile End and Shadwell Road, • Roads all consolidated in 1 828, . ■ - - ■ Tram Road, ... . - ■ Trustees how appointed, and Qualification, ■ Road Trust, Income of, from incidental Causes, Compensation repayable, what, . . - ■ .^^ as to Balance in Treasurer's Hands, Proprietors entitled to 1 per Cent. Dividend, - Road, Tolls on, . - - ■ is in nature of proprietary Road, ■ Debt caused by opposing the East Ihdia Rail- \ g^j^.^ ad, - - - - - - J . - - Baker, [•Irish, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, Baker, road, — Water Rate, Commissioners, Board of. (See Board of Commmioners.) Committee of House of Commons on Wheels in 1819 and 1 gjoj^gg 1822, - - - - -J ' . of Trustees of Roads would be more efficient than 1 General Meetings, - - - J Macneill, Composition for Road Work on the Crudwell and Mintyl pj^^^ Roads, - - - - - "J Compounding for Tolls, - ... Bicknell, ■ should not be allowed, ... Irish, Consolidation of Trusts would do away with many Toll! ■v\r. M'Adam, . Gates, - -- -..-/ Irish, J. M'Adam, - Stokes, Macneill, W. M'Adam, - Hollis, J. M'Adam, - would be desirable. Constables, Expediency of making Milemen, (See Forms.) Contracts, Forms of, for Schedule to General Turnpike! Bicknell, Act, - - - -J . open, for Road Materials, tends to lower Prices, and 1 yj^^^ ^g^^ther, Mode of, - - - - - J Court for the Transaction of all Business relating to Turn-"* pike Trusts to be composed of the Grand Jury > Irish, and Magistrates ; their Functions, - -J (See Wootton Bassett — Pitt.) Ckudwell and Minty Roads, Clerk does not receive any| gg^j^^ Salary, - - - - ' ' (24.) A a 2 •/ 36. 39. 40. 41. 43. 40. 43. 39. 39. 39. 39. 39. 40. 43. 43. 41. 41. 41.42. 40. 42. 43. 42. 41. 42. 42, 109. 135. 136. 140. 24. 178. 179. 143. 3.5, 83. 113. 136. 142. 143.' 147 to 151. 159. 78. 23. 46. 47. 61. 62. 86. 87. ( 188 ) General Heads. Crudwell and Mixxy Roads, Mr. Pitt is Treasurer of, made at the Expence of Mr. Pitt, but used by the") Public who pay Tolls, - - -/ . made before the Act was passed in 1810, Extract from Trust Book as to Appointment of \ Names of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. Clerk, Treasurer, and Surveyor, Mr. Pitt appoints Toll-keepers on, ■ Statement of Mr. Pitt respecting, ■ Tolls on, ■ Composition for Road Work on, One of the best in the Kingdom, ■ indebted to Mr. Pitt .£1,900, -{ Bevir, 86. 89. Bevir, 91. 92. Bevir, 91. Bevir, 91. 92. Bevir, 91. Pitt, 139. Pitt, 138. Pitt, 138. 139. Pitt, 140. Pitt, 140. Pitt, 140. D. Darleton Road. (See Dunham.) T)ebt of Metropolitan Trust was consolidated, as well as the "l Management of the Road, but the Debt is paid off, J of New Cross Trust, - - Debts of Turnpike Roads. {See under their respective Names.) of Roads in Scotland, how paid, of all the Turnpike Trusts is .€8,000,000, of Roads in England, Wales, and Scotland in 1821 ") was .€6,000,000, - - - -J of Turnpike Roads, as to converting them into Life 1 Annuities, - - . - -J are cons'derably understated in the Report of 1 1821, . . . _/ of Trusts, how to be arranged in case of Consolidation, as to stopping the Increase of, Devizes. (See Fisherton.) DovoE Road, a proprietary Road, ... Dunham and Darleton Road; Debt, .€383 6s. llrf. ;'\ Labour, .€49 \7s. 3d.; Teams, £391. 7s. 5d. ; I Salaries, .€242 4s. lid.; Balance in Treasurer's j" Hands, .£196 3s. Id. - - -J J. M'Adam, - 82. Bicknell, 5. J. M'Adam, 97. Bicknell, 22. Vise. Lowther, 51.52. Bicknell, 22. Vise. Lowtber, 52. J. M'Adam, - 82. 83. W. M'Adam, - 145. Baker, Irish, 43. 30. 31. E. East India Dock Road. {See Commercial Road.) Railroad. {See Commercial Road.) Ships, Ballast from, used for Roads. (See Materials.) EccLESHiLL and Bradfokd Trust, in 1826, borrowed ofl the Exchequer Bill Commissioners £3,000, -J Edinburgh County, Roads in, are consolidated, England, Returns in Report of House of Commons in 1821 I relative to Turnpike Roads of, revised by Mr. Irish, / Essex Roads. (.See Middlesex and Essex, and Whitechapel.) Estcourt Branch Road, Accounts of, have never been") audited, - - -J Statute Labour on, .... {See Returns.) ExcoEauEK Bill Loans to Turnpike Road Trusts, - -< to different Trusts in England and Wales amounted"* to £290,750, - - - J to Trusts in England and Wales, there was repaid o('\ Principnl .€16,168 lis. 8d. ; repaid of Interest, I £6,839 6s. 9d. ; unpaid of Principal and Interest ( in 1829-30, £220,541 6s. 7d. - - J Grttton and Povey Roads taken possession of by Com- uiissionerj for Two Loans advanced by them, to different Trusts. (See Blackburn — Bourne — Brad- ford — Broughtun — Coate — Colne — Eccleskall — Gallon— llkley — KirkUall — Leeds — Macclesfield — Marlborough — Povey — Pretton — Sheplty — Thornton — fiTiitehall.) ":} Irish, 37. J. M'Adam, 94. Irish, f 167 to 170. ■ ll73tol75-. Pitt, 139. Pitt, 139. Brickwood, Irish, 3. and App. 36. 37. Irish, Irish, Brickwood, Irish, 37. 37. 3. 36. ( 189 ) General Heads. Expenditure exceeds the Income in 492 Trusts, and the"^ Excess in the whole of the Trusts of Endand and > AVales is J157,683 per Annum. - J Experiment made with Macneill's Road Indicator on the\ Draft of a Stage Coach up different, Hills, - -J made with Macneill's Road Indicator in 1S33, to^ ascertain the Force necessary to draw a Carriage > over different Kinds of Roads, -> • - -J • on different Sorts of Road Materials, of Wheels on the Worcester Road, on Road Surfaces, see Seventh Report on the Liverpool \ and Holyhead Roads, - - - -j Names of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. Bicknellj Macneill, Macneill, Dacre, Stokes, Macneill, 19. 133. 134. 137. 138. 105. 108. 128. Fees on Acts for Roads are now paid out of the Consolidated \ Fund, ---.../ Finance Committee of Metropolis Roads examine and pay "> all Bills once a Month - - - J FiSHERTON and Warminster Road, Removal of Snow from, \ and Expence of, - - - ~ J and Devizes Trust, Statute Duty illegally dispensed \ with on, - - - - -J Honorary Surveyors on, . . - Flint Roads, Metropolis Trust have Forty Miles of, Flints. (See Materials.) Forms proposed for Schedule to General Turnpike Act, for Leases, - _ - - for Conveyances to and from Trustees, (See Appendix.) of Annual Statement, „ - . - FosTON Bridge Road, Eleven Miles long ; Debt, ^400 ; Two \ Treasurers; in their Hands ^6,181, Froxfield Road. (See Marlborough.) FuLHAM Road is lighted by the Metropolitan Trust, FuLHAM and Kensington Trust, no Return from, Lord Kensington the Projector of the Road, Petition to House of Commons to pass Bill for, ——^ Act for, passed in 1825, Inhabitants on Line of, are desirous that it should be consolidated with the Metropolitan Trust, no Toll collected on, - - t '.} Bicknell, 16. Vise. Lowther, 47. Duke, 165. Duke, 164. Duke, 164. Vise. Lowther, 49. Bicknell, 23. Bicknell, 23. Bicknell, 23. Bicknell, 30. Irish, 32. Vise. Lowther, 49. Lillie, 152. Lillie, 152. Lillie, 152. 153, Lillie, 154. Lillie, 153. Lillie, 153! 154. G. Gatton and ' Povey Road taken possession of by Ex-"» chequer Bill Commissioners for Loans of Exchequer > Bills, ... - .J General Surveyor for Districts, if appointed, from what! Fund to be paid, ... -J General Turnpike Law. (See Acts.) GlossopRoad. (See Sheffield.) GospoRT Road, Debt of, ^17,498 ; Excess of Expenditure, 4?258, - Granite from Mountsorrell used on the Metropolis Roads, used instead of Flints on the Metropolis Roads, will wear twice as long as Flint, Greenwich Road, Length and Expence of, Tolls on, . - - - Guernsey Granite, good Quality of. ':} Brickwood, J. M'Adara, 93. Hollis, 158 Vise. Lowther, 49. Vise. Lowther, 49. Vise. Lowther, 50. Bicknell, 7. Vise. Lowther, 49. Vise. Lowther, 54. (24.) Aa3 ( 190 ) H. General Heads. Names of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. from the New") Halifax. (See Wakefield.) Hampstead Road Trust abolished, 10 G. 4., Hardy, Mr., Superannuation Allowance to. Cross Trust, and Reasons for it, - Harrow Road, State of, - - Hedges, as to clipping of, - - - HiGHGATE Road Trust abolished, 10 G. 4,, Highway Rates have no Limit, ... Highways in England, Observations and Plans for Reduction^ of Expence of Repairs of Highways and Turnpike > Roads, ... HiRONDELLE, the fastest Coach in the Kingdom, Form of its") Wheels, - - - - -J Holyhead Road, ^379,000 expended by Parliamentary Com- 1 raissioners for Improvement of, - -J Holyhead Road (St. Alban's Division) is managed by the Local Trustees, under the Directions of the Parlia- mentary Commissioners, HouNSLOw Road lighted by the Metropolitan Trust, Huntingdon Road, Land Tax is paid for Repairs of, to Old North Road, Consolidation o^ would be a Benefit, - - } } Vise. Lowther, 46. Bicknell, 1.5. J. M'Adam, - 75. Stokes, 125. Vise, Lowlher, 46. Pitt, 140. Stokes, 115. 121. Stokes, 109. J. M^^Adam, - 101. J. M'Adam, - 99.1 Vise. Lowther, 48. J. M'Adam, - 84. J. M'Adam, - 83. f Ightham Stone. (See Materials.) Ilkley Road. (See Kirkstall.) Income and Expenditure of Turnpike Roads at present, and System proposed for Improvement of. Indicator Road. (See Macneill.) Informers, Sums paid to, by Trustees of the New Cross") Roads, - - - - -J Interest paid and unpaid on Mortgage Debts of Turnpike 1 Trusts, - - - - -J Rate of, on Money borrowed for Turnpike Roads, Ireland, Breadth of Cart Wheels in, - - Weights usually drawn in Carts in, Irish, Mr., his Corrections of Returns in printed Report of the House of Commons in 1821, relative to Turnpike Roads of England, Wales, and Scotland, j- Irish, Bicknell, 63 to 65. 18. Irish, - 57. J. M'Adam, - 83. Macneill, 128. Macneill, 128. Irish, 167 to 179. K. Kennington Cross to Witchcross Road, Improvements of, 1 j M'AH and Debt of, - - - -S ' ' ' Kensington Road is macadamized, - - - J. M'Adam, - Kensington Trust. (See Fulham.) Kidderminster Road, Expenditure above Income, ^2,879") j., 5s. 2d., - - . . ./ "'S"' ■ Kirkstall and Ilkley Trust, in 1827, borrowed of the") ■. . , Exchequer Bill Commissioners ^9,000, - - J ' ' ' , , ' Knightsbridge Road lighted by the Metropolitan Road") -.r. ■,• , Trust. - - - - . . f *i^''* L-owttier, 99. 80. 31. 37. 48. Labour, less, required on Granite than Flint Roads, on Roads, Sums paid for, in 1829, Pay for. paid for monthly on Fridays, and good Effects of thk. ■{ Vise. Lowther, 50. Irish, - 58. J. M'Adam, - Dacre, W. M'Adam, - 79. 117. 144. Stokes, HI. 112. General ticads. ( 191 ) Names of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. !} (See Milemen.) Labouhee with a Wife and Two Children under Ten Years of r Age, annual and weekly Expenditure of, - . / Ditto, with a Wife and One Child, Single, annual and weekly Expenditure of, Laboureks, Number of, out of Employ in Sussex in January "» 1832, * • - - • . r Statement or Analysis of annual Expenditure for, on Turnpike Roads, to Landlords, Farmers, and Tradesmen, ... who use their own Tools are allowed 6d, per Week, ■ Extra, upon Vacancies are made Milemen, and good 1 Effects of this,. - - - . ./ Work on Roads put put with a Level, . as to hiring or discharging of, - - . should not be paid by Surveyors, - - . Land, Amount paid for ^Damage to, in getting Stone for^ Roads, is Is. 3d. per Cubic Yard, or ^227 10*. per > Acre, - - - - - .J Land Tax is paid for Repairs of Road to Huntingdon, Leases of Tolls on New Cross Roads, Lessee pays Half the! Charge for, - - . ' . . j Lee and Blackheath Hill, Cost of Alteration of, Leeds and Whitehall Road Trust, in 1829, borrowed of "» the Exchequer Bill Commissioners ^£5,000, - J Lewes Roads Tolls, ^ Suras received for, under and not") under Composition, - - - . j Lewis Roads, District of, is 103 Miles, Lewisham Parish, Length of Roads, andExpence of, LiCKEY Hills, new Road making to avoid the. Life Annuities, as to converting Debts of Roads into. Loans. (See Exchequer Bills.) Local Trusts and Trustees the best System for conducting"! Roads, - " - - - j Local Turnpike Acts. (See^c*5.) London, macadamized Streets in. Materials used on, M. M'Adam and Telford have much improved Turnpike Roads, M'Adamized Streets in London, Materials used on, Macclesfield Road borrowed in 1826, of the Exchequer! Bill Commissioners, j£7,500, - - J Macneill's Road Indicator, Description of. Mode and Ex- \ pence of using, and practical Examples of, - J Specimen of a Registry of the State of Repairs of! any Road ascertained by, - - - 1 Experiments on the Drafts of a Stage Coach up 1 different Hills by, - • - - J Manchester and Buxton Road ; Tolls, dS14, 459 ; Debts, ") .£98,606 ; in Treasurer's Hands, .£6,804, - J and Saltersbrook Road ; Tolls, ^4,786 j Debts, ^28,966; Surplus, £175, Manual Labour. (See Labour.} Marlborough and Coate Trust borrowed of the Exchequer \ s, \ Bill Commissioners £1,300, and Froxfield Road; Manual Labour, £416 Is. 8d. n Team Labour, £87 ls.8d.; Clerks, £444 1 7s, 9d.S Marple Road. (See Stockport.) Marylebone Road Trust abolished, 10 G. 4., and Finchley Road, bad State of Finances of. Materials for Roads, different Qualities of, Experiments on different Sorts of, on obtaining of, and their proper Application, ■ I Price paid for, is indefinite, from the Manner the Law"! of 3 & 4 G. 4.. regulates it, - - - / (24.) A a 4 Irish, 66. 67. Irish, - 67. Irish, - 68. 69. Irish, 179. Irish, 69 to 73. J. M'Adam, - 79. J. ]^' Adam, - 78. Stokes,, 111. Stokes, 112. Macneill, 135. Irish, 58. J. M'Adam, - 84. Bicknell, 7. Bicknell, 16. 18. 22. Irish, 37. Irish, 178. Irish, 35. Bicknell, 7. Macneill, 127. Bicknell, 22. Bicknell, Stokes, Stokes, Stokes, Irish, 22. 114- 121. 114, 36. Macneill, [ lOO lO JO L 135. Macneill, 132. Macneill, 133. 134, Bicknell, 20.21. Bicknell, 20. Irish, 36, Irish y 31. Vise, Lowther, 46. J. M'Adam, - 76. Stokes, 114. Dacre, 105. 106i Hollis, 1^7. Stokes, 112. 113.. ( 192 ) General Heads. Materials for Roads , Price paid for, is sometimes more than \ Double the Fee Simple of the Land, - - J ■ Expence of, would be lowered in case of a general "> Consolidation, - - - - -/ open Contracts for, tend to lower Prices, Price of, fallen from Twentv-five to Thirty per Cent. 1 since 1827, - '- - -J brought from new Sources at a Reduction of Thirty! per Cent,, - - - - -J Cost of, from Pits, is less by manual than by Horse 1 Labour, - - - -J considerable Saving would be made in Price of, by en- ") gaging Surveyors for Five Years instead of One, - J Distance they are brought in many Instances, Rate of Carriage of, - - . . Ballast from East India Ships the best, Flints from Fields are better than those from Pits, Mountsorrell Granite is used on the Metropolis Roads, Huduson Bay and Ightham Stone is used on the Metro- 1 polls Roads, - - - -/ Hudson Bay Stone is used on the Middlesex and Essex") Roads, - - - - - -/ — — — Guernsey Stone is used as, - - - < ' Oolite is good fcr, Granite will wear twice as long as Flint, Description of, used in Worcestershire, Prices of, Flints, Us. 6c/. per Ton, - - - - Land or picked, 4s. 6d, per Cubic Yard, Croydon, 5s. 9rf. per Cubic Yard, Gravel, 10s. 6d. per Load on the Huntingdon Road, 3s. 6d. per Load on the St. Alban's Road, Ightam Stone, 13s. 4d. per Cubic Yard, - i Whinstone, Blue, 1 6s. 6d. per Cubic Yard, Matlock Bhidge Roads. {See Chesterfield.) Memorial of Coach Owners on the bad State of the Middlesex 1 and Essex Roads, - -J Metropolitan Roads. {See Reports.) Names of Witnesses and Page of Evidence, Stokes, 112. J. M'Adam, - 83. Vise. Lowther, 46. Bicknell, 11. Vise. Lowther, 46. J. M'Adam, - 76. J. M'Adam, - 78. 79. VV. M'Adam, - 142. Irish, 34. 35. Irish, 57. 58. Bicknell, 11. Vise. Lowther, 50. Vise. Lowther, 49. Vise. Lowther, 49.54. Dacre, 117. Vise. Lowther, 54, Dacre, 117. Stokes, 115. Vise. Lowther, 50. Stokes, 108.114. Irish, 34. Bicknell, 12, Bicknell, 12. J. M'Adam, - 85, J. M'Adam, - 101. Bicknell, 11. Vise. Lowther, 54, Bicknell, 12. Tolls on, . - . . J Clerk to, is Mr. James Panter, - ... Income, .€82,821 ; Debt, .£100,000, Act to consolidate, passed 7 G.4., amended by 1 G. 4., Commissioners meet once a Month, - - . Improvement of, by Drainage, ... Length of ; Expence of lighting, watering, and cleans- \ ing, - - - . -/ ■ State and Condition of, when the present Commis- 1 sioners took them under their Charge, - -J how the Detail of the Business conducted ; Finance "J Committee ; Examination and Payment of all Bills > once a Month, - . - J ■have no Treasurer, but all Monies are received and') paid at the Bank of England by Drafts signed by > the Chairman and One Commissioner, - -J • Reduction of Salaries of Officers of, ■ Toils taken on, are 3d. per Horse for Seven Miles, ■ Weighing Machines abolished on, ■ to Knightsbridge, Hounslow, and Fulham are lighted 1 by the Trust, - - . ° . / ■ Income of, is .£82,821, - - . - . Surplus of, for 1 832, was .£8, 1 77, Dacre, 117. Bicknell, 24. Vise, Lowther, 48, 49. Vise, Lowther, 49, Bicknell, 29. Vise. Lowther, 45. 46. 49. Vise. Lowther, 47. Vise. Lowther, 46. 49. Vise. Lowther, 47. 48. Vise, Lowther, 46.: Vise, Lowther, 47. Vise. Lowther, 47. Vise, Lowther, 47. Vise. Lowther, 48. 49. Vise. Lowther, 48, Vise. Lowther, 48. Vise. Lowther, 50. 51. Vise. Lowther, 50. General Heads, ( 198 ) } Metkopolitan Roads, Granite used on, instead of Flints, for •» Twenty-four Miles, , . . .J hare Forty Miles of Flint Road, do MOW pay their Expenditure, including Interest of Money, - - . Sinking Fund for liquidating Debt of, Composition for Statute Labour was £\,757, — Rates for watching and lighting, - - - Length of, One hundred and twenty-five Miles, --T Expence of watering, - . . South of the Thames should form One Trust, - Consolidation of, good Effects of, Debt of, was consolidated as well as the Road, but i the Debt is paid off, - - J — are managed by Commissioners instead of Trustees, - Commissioners on Vacancies how filled up, and their 1 Qualifications, - - - . . J their Meetings, how attended. } Consolidation of, has been the Cause of great Savings, Middlesex Turnpike Roads, Debt of, in 1821, Middlesex and Essex Trust, Extent of, - < Meetings of Trustees, and Mode of doing Business, - Tolls, ^14,661; Expenditure,^! 2,929;Debts,^7,587; in Treasurer's Hands, ,£7,066, . . - ■ no Debts on, - . . . Balance in Treasurer's Hands, Explanation of, •^^— Bond Debts, Explanation respecting Payment of, Granite from Hudson's Bay used on, Whitechapel Division of, how paved, — — ^^ Roads of, in very good Repair, - - - Roads are watered, . - . Surveyors of Roads, Time they are employed, and"i Salaries, - - - - - -J Clerk's Duties and Salary, . - . Labour is done principally by Day-work, and Wages thereof, - . . . Memorial of Coach Owners on the State of the Roads ") on, - - - - - -J Mile End and Shadwell Road. (See Commercial Road.) {See Labourers.) MiLEMEN, their Duties, Pay, and Rewards, Expediency of making them Constables, their Time of Labour, ■ . - - Vacancies filled up from extra Labourers, are Native Labourers, - . _ . MiNTY Road. (See Crudwell — Pitt — Wootton Bassett.) MoEETON to Stow. (See Slow.) Mortgage Creditors, Consequences of their taking posses- 1 sion of Roads, - - - -J Mortgage Debt of New Cross Roads, - . - of Turnpike Trusts, Interest paid and unpaid, Mountsokrell Granite used on the Metropolis Roads, } fames of Witnesses ai id Page of Evidence. Vise. Lowther, 49. Vise. Lowther, 49. Vise. Lowther, 49. Vise. Lowther, 50. Vise. Lowther, 50. Vise. Lowther, 50. Bicknell, 29. Vise. Lowther, 52. J.M'Adam, - 80. Vise. Lowther, 53. J.M'Adam, - 75. 76. 94. J. M'Adam, - 82. J. M'Adam, - 94. J. M'Adam, - 94. J. M'Adam, - 94. 95. J. M'Adam, 95. Vise. Lowther, 51. 52. Dacre, 102. 10.3. 118. Dacre, 104. Bicknell, 20. Dacre, 118. Dacre, 118. 120. Dacre, 103. Dacre, 105. Dacre, 105. Dacre, 104. Dacre, 118, Dacre, 103. 117. Dacre, 117. 118. Dacre, 117. Dacre, 104. 105. 117. J. M'Adam, - 77. 78. 79. J. M'Adam, - 78. J. M'Adam, - 79. J. M'Adam, 78. J. M'Adam, - 79. Bicknell, 21, Bicknell, 5. Irish, - 57. Vise. Lowther, 49, N. Newbury Road, Debt of, is ^2,500, New Cross Turnpike Trust, Extent of, is Forty Miles, — Cost per Mile to Greenwich, . Mortgage Debt of, . - - no Debt now on, . - - - . Balance in Treasurer's Hands, Explanation of, . Treasurer, Security he gives. (24.) Bb HoUis, 159. Bicknell, 5. 29, Bicknell, 11. Bicknell, 5, Bicknell, 9. Bicknell, 5. Bicknell, 24. ( 19* ) General Heads. Barnes of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. ":} New Ckoss Turnpike Trust, Accounts of, for 1829,1830," and 1831, .... Bonded Debt of, - - - at the End of every Ten Miles charges an additional ") Toll, - - - . -/ Annual Returns and Periods of making up, Improvement Tolls, - - - Tolls, { Tolls, Reduction of, ... Tolls, Sums at which let in 1832, ... Penalties for Offences against Turnpike Acts are not let ") with the Tolls, - - - - - J — ^.^ Charge of Leases of Tolls, how paid for, Amount of Parish Composition on, - — — good Management of, - - - - •^-^— Treasurer has not any Salary, General Meetings of, and Proceedings, Clerk of, Duties, Salary, and Officers, 1829, - i Acts for improving Blackheath Hill, Bromley Road, Reasons why the Improvements have") not been carried into execution,^ - - J Team Labour of, is done by Contract, — — — Sums paid to Informers by, watering of, - - - - -^— — Special Meetings of Commissioners to view the Roads "> of, / Commissioners pay for Use of Room for their Meetings, Superannuation Allowance to Mr. Hardy, and Reasons ") for it, - - - - - / Road Scrapings sold by, Trustees serve gratis, ... Expence of Improvements, bevond ordinary Repairs, ") from 1817 to 1832-3, -' - - -J New Makket Heath Trust ; Tolls, ^892 ; Debts, £920 ; i Balance in Treasurer's Hands, ^1,043, - - j Finances of, are in good State, . - . New Nokth Road, a proprietary Road, North Roads, Finances of, are in a good State, Travelling on, is at the Rate of Ten Miles per Hour, new, in nature of a proprietary Road, Bicknell, 15. and Appx Bicknell, 12, Bicknell, 21. 22. Bicknell, 5. 6. Bicknell, 12. 29. Bicknell, Irish, 6. 10. 24. 36. Bicknell, 10. Bicknell, 10. Bicknell, 6. Bicknell, 7. Bicknell, 7. Bicknell, 7. 9. Bicknell, 13. Bicknell, 7. 8. 9. Bicknell, Irish, 12. 13. 30. 36. Bicknell, 9. 10. 29. Bicknell, 12. Bicknell, 13. Bicknell, 18. Bicknell, 13. Bicknell, 18. Bicknell, 15. Bicknell, 15. Bicknell, 18. Bicknell, 19. Bicknell, Bicknell, 29. 21. J. M'Adam, - 76. Baker, 43. J. M'Adam, - 76. J. M'Adam, - 102; Baker, 43. o. Offences, Penalties for, as to letting them with the Tolls, Officers of Turnpike Trusts are liable to be discharged at") any Period ; Inconvenience of this, - - J Old North Road to Huntingdon, Consolidation of, would be ") a Benefit, - - . .j Old Street Road Trust abolished, 10 G. 4., Oolite is a good Material for Roads, Oxford Road, Finances are in a good State, Bicknell, 6. 7, J. M'Adam, - .77. J. M'Adam, 83. i Vise. Lowther, 46. Stokes, 115. J. M'Adam, . 76. Parish Composition in lieu of Statute Duty, Amount of, on") „. , „ New Cross Roads, - . . ,j- Bicknell, - 7. Bicknell, - 23. Irish, . 26. Irish, . 57. Bicknell, - 6. 7. • fresh Arrangement proposed as to, Duties, Value of, per Annum, ^1 00,000, >^— ^— and Tolls, Arrears of, . . . Penalties for Offences as to letting of, with the ToUs, C 195 ) General Heads. Penalty of ^50 on Clerks of Roads for not making Returns ") within Thirty Days after Audit, - . / Pekshohe, Repair of Street in, and Expence of it. Petition to House of Commons to pass the Fulham and l Kensington Trust Bill, - . ./ Pitt, Mk., his Statement respecting Grudwell and Mintvl Roads, - ... . Ij- ■ Treasurer of Cirencester and Wootton Bassett Road, - his Account of Expenditure of Wootton Bassett Road, {See Income — Analysis — Board — Surveyors — Trusts ■ Trustees.) Plans and Suggestions for the better Management of Turnpike , Roads in England and Wales, . - ' for repairing Roads by Soldiers, . . - PoNDYARDS RoAD. {See Holyhead.) PoPHAM Lane Road, Debt of, is ^4,850, PovEY Cross Road taken possession of by the Exchequer") Bill Loan Commissioners, - J Proprietary Roads, Commercial Road, New North Road, and Dover Road, partake of the Nature of, Names of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. Irish, . 33. Stokes, . 114. LiUie, - 152. 153. Pitt, 138. Bevir, 92. Bevir, 88. Irish, _r59 to 62. 64 t 65. J. M' Adam, - 81. 93. Stokes, HO. 115. J.M'Adam, 97. Vise. Lowther, 54. Macneill, 135. 136. 137 W.M'Adam, - 141 to 151. HoUis, 155 to 158, Hollis, 158. HoUis, 154. 159. J. M'Adam, - 99. '^j Baker, 41. 43. R. Reading and Hatfield Road, Extent of, and how managed, General Meetings of Trustees of, - Repairs of Road^ are better managed under Surveyors than 1 by Contracts, - - - - - J Report of House of Commons of 1821 relative to Turnpike^ Roads of England, Wales, and Scotland, revised by > Mr. Irish, - - . - -J Reports of Metropolitan Road Commissioners, 1 to 7, (See Abstracts — Clerks — Penalties.) Returns of Turnpike Trusts indebted to the Exchequer Bill "j Commissioners ; Interest, SinkingFund, and Amount > repaid in 1829 and 1830, - -J — of Turnpike Trusts to which Exchequer Bills have been \ issued for 1832, - - - -J from Clerks of Turnpike Trusts, proposed Alteration of, of Turnpike Trust should be examined by an Officer"^ appointed by the Treasury or by the Postmaster > General, ... -J of Turnpike Trusts, Abstract of, by Mr. Irish. {See Abstract.) of the Debts, Income, and Expenditure of Turnpike' Roads in Reports of House of Commons for 1821 and for 1829, as taken from the Returns to the House of Lords in 1 832, corrected by Mr. Irish, - from Turnpike Trusts should all be made up to One "I Day in the Year, - - - - - J of New Cross Trust, .... Revenue of Roads, as to Improvement of. Road Consolidation. {See Plan — Consolidation.) Road Indicator. (.See Macneill.) Road Repairs are better managed under Surveyors than by") Contracts, - - - - J Road Scrapings sold by public Tender on New Cross Roads, Road Surface, Experiments on, see Seventh Report on Liver- 1 pool and Holyhead Roads, - "J Road System, as to Alteration of, {See Statute Duty.) Road Work, great Saving in, would be by substituting Manual "|^ for Horse Labour, . . - Roads, Materials for. (See Materials for.) (21..) B b 2 J.M'Adam, . 95. J. M'Adam, - 95. Duke, 160. Irish, 167 to 179. Panter, 3 to 15. and Ap Brickwood, - 5. and App. Brick wood, - 3. 5. and App. Bicknell, 17. 18. Bicknell, ) Irish, J. M'Adam, - Bicknell, Bicknell, Hollis, Duke, Bicknell, Macneill, Vise. Lowther, Irish, 23 to 25. 174.175. 81. 17. 5. 156. 160. IS. 128. 51. 35. ( 196 ) General Heads. Roads, Mode of making out Account of Expenditure on, Romford Road, bad State of, in Winter, Names of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. Irish, belonged to New Cross Trust, I Vise. Lowther, RoTHERHiTHE Trust repairs Part of the Road that formerly") „■ r. 11 26. 27. 53. 16. S. Saltersbkook Road. (See Manchester.) Scotland, Mode of Road Management in, Returns relative to Turnpike Roads of, from Report "^ of House of Commons in 1821, revised by > Mr. Irish, Roads are managed in, by Consolidation of Trusts by Counties, - _ - . — who are Commissioners of Roads in, — Consolidation of Roads in, by 1 & 2 W. 4. — Debts of Roads in, how to be paid, -' Mode of letting Tolls in, by 1 & 2 W. 4. s. 34., — Weights usually drawn in Carts in, — Breadth of Cart Wheels in, Seven Oaks Trust, Finances of, are in a good State, Shadwell and Mile End Road. (See Commercial Road.) SHEEriELD and Glossop Road ; Debt, i£60,000 ; Tolls, | £360, - . . ./ Shepley Road Trust, in 1827, borrowed of the Exchequer! Bill Commissioners ^3j500, . . _j Sinking Fund for liquidating the Debt of the Metropolis ") Roads, - - - J Soldiers, Plan for employing them- in the Repair of Roads, - as to their being Gate-keepers, ... Spalding and Bourne Trust borrowed of the Exchequer 1 Bill Commissioners, in 1824, ^3,000, - -J (See Wheels.) Stage Coaches, Principles on which their Wheels should be"| made, . -/ (See Macneill's Road Indicator,) Ratio of Increase of Resistance to increased Velocity "J of, - - . ./ (See Holyhead.) St. Alban's Division of Holyhead Road, Length and Con- 1 dition thereof, - . . . j Sum paid for the Barnett and Minis Improvement, Tolls on, are heavy to pay; Improvements to the\ Pondyards, and Cost of, . -J . Cost of Repair is .£250 per Mile, - - . — — — Gravel used on, is 3s. Gd. per Cubic Yard, Stamford Hill Road, State of, - - Lighting and Water Rate on. Statement of the Debts, Income, and Expenditure of Turn- ~) pike Roads Returns in Report of House of Com- I nions for 1821 and for 1829, as taken from the > Returns to the House of Lords in 1832, corrected i by Mr. Irish, ... .J of the Ratio of Increase of Resistance to increased T Velocity of Stages and Waggons, . J Statute Duty, by 4 G. 4. c. 95., is left to the Magistrates ") to employ or not, - - . -J ■ no fixed Principle on which levied. is generally but half performed, ■ Discontinuance of, is desirable, -{ -{ Proportion or Amount of, is settled at a Special Petty") Sessions, . . . . _j vexatious Nature of, - . Revenue of Roads is equal to do awav with. J. M'Adara, Irish, I J. M'Adam, - J. M'Adam, - f J. M'Adam, l W. M'Adam, - J. M'Adam, J. M'Adam, - Macneill, Macneill, J. M'Adam, - Bicknell, Irish, Irish, Vise. Lowther, Holiis, Hollis, Irish, Stokes, Macneill, Irish, Macneill, 93. 94. 176. 177. 93. 97. 97. 144. 97. 98. 128 128 76. 20. 32. 33. 37. 50. J 58. 158. 36. 115to 117. 129. J. M'Adam, - 100 J. M'Adam, - 100 J. M'Adam, - 100. J. M'Adam, 101. J. M'Adam, - 101. J. M'Adam, - 75. 76, Vise. Lowther, 48. 174. 175. 129. Vise. Lowther, 54. Irish, 26. Pitt, Macneill, 140. 136. 137. J. M'Adam, - Macneill, 76. 77. 136. 137. Stokes, 112. Irish, 36. Irish, 35. General Heads. ( 197 ) Sta±ute Duty, as to an improved Method of performing, -( illegally dispensed with, . ... ■ Composkion Money paid for, on Metropolitan Road I was .£1,757, - - . . j- for, on New Cross Trust, ... on Eastcourt Road, - - . . Names of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. Bicknell, - 23. Duke, . 165, Duke, - 164. Steam Navigation from Liverpool to Ireland is much in creased, - - - - Stockbridge Road, Debt of, is j€800, - . Stockport and Marple Road, Mortgagee is in possession of, Stoke Road. (See UUoxeter.) Stone Road. (See Vtioxeter.) Stow to Moreton Road, bad State of, Sub or Assistant Surveyors. (See Surveyors.) Summary of Returns relative to Income, Debts, and Expen-' diture of Turnpike Roads of England, Wales, and Scotland, from Returns to House of Commons in 1821,by Mr. Irish, . . . . Surrey and Sussex Road, Debt of, is about £50,000, and is " on Mortgage, - . _ .^ good Management of, - ... ' State of, . - Surveyors of Roads, should not be appointed by Trustees, - as to Appointment of, under a Board of Management, and Salaries, - - . . should have extra Power, in case of Floods or Falls of Snow, - - . — as to Appointment of, under Plan proposed for Con- solidation of TrustSj should not have the Payment of Labourers, - Salary of One, on 400 Miles of Road, Surveyors, Sub or Assistant, on Roads, ^-^ their Pay, :} Honorary, on Fisherton Road, Trustees should not be, Sussex, Number of able Labourers out of Employ in January ") Vise. Lowther, 50. Irish, Pitt, 1832 in. -; HoUis, Bicknell, Stokes, Irish, Bicknell, J.M'Adam, Bicknell, J. M'Adam, Macneill, W. M'Adam, J. M'Adam, J. M'Adam, W. M'Adam, Macneill, Stokes, Stokes, Stokes, W. M'Adam, Duke, Duke, Irish, 36. 139. '"I J. M'Adam, - 102. 160. 21. 115, 167 to 179. 20. 98. 23, 98. 136. 148. 82. 93. 148. 135. Jll. 111. 113. 142. 164. 164. 179. Telford, his System of Road-making, its Advantages over") common Methods, - - - -J and M'Arlara have much improved Turnpike Roads, - Thornton and Bradford Trust, in 1826, borrowed of the") Exchequer Bill Commissioners ^^6,000, - - J Toll Gates, as to employing Soldiers as Keepers of, Tolls should be let by Tender, and not put up at the PriceJ they let for on the former Year, . .j as to letting them as in Scotland, as to compounding for, - - - -< Advantage of letting them without allowing them to \ be compounded for, - . - ./ Arrears of, and Parish Composition, - - - on New Cross Roads, Leases of, how paid for, on the Metropolis Roads, - - — — from Westminster to Greenwich, ... on Roads South of the Thames, - - on Crudwell and Minty Trust, - - . .Sums received for, on Lewes Roads, under and not") under Composition, - - -' (24.) B b 3 Macneill, 127. Stokes, 121. Irish, 36. Hollis, 158. J, M'Adam, - 85. 86. Dacre, 118. 119 W, M'Adam, - 143. J, M'Adam, - 98. Bicknell, 24. Irish, - 57. Irish, 178. Irish, - 57. Bicknell, 7. Vise. Lowther, 48. Vise. Lowther, 49. Vise. Lowther, 49. Pitt, 138. Irish, 178, ( 198 ) General Heads. 1 Tools for Workmen found by Trustees of Roads, , AJlowances for, when Workmen find them, on Metropolitan Roads provided for by public Tender, Tramway of Commercial Road, . _ . Travelling, Rate of, increased by good State of Roads, on the North Road is at the Rate of Ten Miles per \ Hour, - - - - - - } Treasurers 'Balances. (See under the Name of respective Trusts — Balance.") Sixty-five, hold Balances to the Amount of ^150,223, and Reasons for this, - - - Balances in their Hands, and frequent Losses \ thereby, - - - - J — — > Bankers should be, instead of private Individuals, - -j mes of Witnesses and Page of Evidence, J. M«Adain, - 79. J M'Adam, - 79. Vise. Lowther, 47. Baker, 43. J. M'Adam, 102, J. M'Adam, - 102. \ Irish, Irish, J. M'Adam, Vise. Lowther, no Treasurer in Metropolitan Road Trust, but Money 1 y T.owthe paid and received by Bank of England, - -J * ' (See Plans.) Trust Accounts should be made up monthly, ' Bonds, as to paying oflF, or making them transferrable, Trustees at their annual Meetings should be provided~\ with an Estimate of the next Year's Expenditure, I not to be exceeded except by Special Meeting of | Trustees, - - - -J as to their Attendance at Trust Meetings, and Qualifi- ' cations, - - - ■ as to their Attendance in case of Consolidation of Trusts, ■ Committees of, would be more efficient to do Business 1 than General Meetings, - - J • always require Estimates before they commence an Improvement or New Road, should not be Surveyors of Roads, and why, - ■ Advantasre of Gentlemen in the Neighbourhood ">-.._ , i-^J' ^ > Vise. Lowther, being, ... - 1 ' !} Bicknell, Vise. Lowther, J. M'Adam, - J. M'Adam, - W. M'Adam, Macneill, Macneill, Duke, ■/ Trustees, System of Local Trustees and Trusts the best for") conducting Roads, - - J {See Returns — Plans — Exchequer Bills.) Trusts of Roads, the whole Number is 1,119, and theyl extend over 20,000 Miles, - - J 324 do not exceed Ten Miles, annual Expence of, is .£196,025, Thirtv-fiine, whose Expenditure exceeds their Income ") by'.£80,869, - - J 173, whose Mortgage Debts are ^929,554, the Inte-") rest amounts to jS527, 162, - - -J in 1829 Income of, was .£1,455,293, Expenditure of, .£1,678,054, .... Debts of, are .£8,000,000, there are 492 whose Expenditure exceeds their") Income; the whole Excess is ^'157,683, - -J Bicknell, Irish, Sum paid for Labour on, in 1829, was .£510,661, Consolidation of, would be desirable. ■{ } ■ in case of Consolidation of, what should be their Extent, and the Application of their Funds, - . _ ■ should not be created for less than 100 Miles of Road, 1 tt. t why, - - . . - ./ Vise. Lowther, ■ as to Principle for limiting the Extent of, as to Consolidation of, by Length, rather than from "> a Centre, - - - ./ as to Advantages of consolidating small, proposed Alteration in Returns of, as to forming and appointing General Surveyors to Dis- "» tricts of, - - - . -J 33. 57. 77. 52. 47. 23. 53. 81. 95. 96. 97. 143. 144 135. 136. 142. 164. 53. 22. 54. Irish, 33. Irish, 54. Irish, 33. Irish, 33. Irish, 58. Irish, 58. Bicknell, 22. Bicknell, 19. Irish, 58. Irish, J. M'Adam, - Stokes, 35. 77. 83. 113. W. M'Adam, 144. 145. Vise. Lowther, 51. 52. Bicknell, 21. Stokes, 112. 113. J. M'Adam, - 77. to 85. Bicknell, 17. 18. J. M'Adam, - 81. General Head^. ( 199 ) Names Of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. Trusts of Roads, their Receipts and Expenditure should bcj iTetoS^sler'^'^^"'^"'^?'^'''^".^'^"'^:} ^-•^-^»'-' 52. borrowing Money for, as to checking or controlling of. Funds of, are sufficient if properly managed, - "— — — Returns. {See Returns — Abstract.) ■ as to dividing them into Main and Branch Roads, - average Expenditure per Mile, ... — • Officers of, are liable to be discharged by Trustees at "» any Period, and Inconvenience of this, - J Court for transacting all Business relating to, to be"j composed of the Grand Jury and Magistrates ; their > Functions, - - . .J Expence of 128 Acts of Parliament, in 1829, was! ^23,000 for 2,5 1 3 Miles of Road, . . / (See Income — Plan — Accounts — Analysis.) Turnpike Roads, Plan for the better Management of, in \ England and Wales, - - - ./ have been much improved by Telford and M'Adam, Annual Income of, in 1821, .£970,618; Debt," .£3,874,255 ; Balance in Treasurer's Hands, ^174,000 ; Arrears of Interest, J!337,170, Annual Income of, in 1829, £1,495,854; Debts,' ^8,000,000; Balance in Treasurer's Hands, ^343,896 ; Arrears of Interest, ^'821,586 19s. 7d. Return to House of Commons in 1821 of England,! Wales, and Scotland, revised by Mr. Irish, J Is, V Is, V i.,J Vise. Lowther, J. M'Adam, - Bicknell, Irish, J. M'Adam, - Irish, Irish, - Irish, Stokes, Irish, Irish, - Irish, 53. 77. 24. 58. 77. 61. 62. 54 to 56. 59 to 62. 121, 32. 33. 32. 33. 167 to 179. u. Uttoxeter, Stoke and Stone Road ; Tolls. .£245 ; Debt, 1 „. , ^12,613 ; Balance in Treasurer's Hands, 4^232 -/ ^"=knell. 20. } w. Wade's Mill Trust, prosperous State of. - Wages of Labour on Roads should be paid once a Month on 1 a Friday, and good Effects of this Practice, - / Waggon, as to Width of its Wheels, - - . Ratio of Increase of Resistance to increased Velocity, > Statement of, . « . . . -j Wakepield and Halifax Road, Halifax District ; Debt, .£11,220; Balance in Treasurer's Hands, .£5,195 19s. 8(i.; Income above Expenditure, iS45 19*. 6d. Wales, Roads in, how managed, . . - - Warminster. (See Fisherton.) Warwick and Worcester Road. (See Worcester.) Water Carts, improved Distributors for, - , . Watering Metropolis Roads, Expence of. Watering Roads, in what Cases advisable, ... - Advantages of; - - - - - Watching and Lighting Rate on Metropolis Roads was \ £977, - - - ■- - -J Weigh Gates, New Cross Roads, Weighing Machines abolished on the Metropolis Roads this has been followed by others to within 100 Miles of London, ... as to doing away with, - - Weights usually drawn in Carts in Scotland and Ireland, Wheels, Committee of the House of Commons on, in 1819 l and' 1822, - - -/ all Legislative Interference with the Size, Shape, and "1 Breadth of, should be given up, - -J . for Waggons, Width they should be made, ■ Winter and Summer, for Coaches, - - (24.) B b 4 !} J. M'Adam, - 84. Stokes, ill. 112, Stokes, 109. Macneill, 129. Irish, - 31. J. M'Adam, - 93. J. M'Adam, 80. J. M'Adam, - 80. J. M'Adam, 80. Dacre, 118. Vise. Lowther, 50. Bicknell, 6. Vise. Lowther, J. M'Adam, - 48. 84, W. M'Adam, - 143. Macneill, 128. Stokes, 109. M'Adam, 148. Stokes, 109. Stokes, 110. ( 200 ; General Heads. Names of Witnesses and Page of Evidence. Wheels of the Hirondelle Coach, Time they have lasted; allowed by the Metropolitan Road Trust, . thickly studded with projecting Tire Nails, Damage \ they do to Roads, - - - J with a cirdular Tire, Injury they do to the Roads, ■ broad. Advantages of, for Stage Coaches, Principle they should be made on, as to Alteration of, by Authority of Parliament, and \ the Cost of it, - " - / ■ if made with flat Soles and the Nails countersunk, ■^ should have the Tolls reduced, as they would save I 50 per Cent, on the Repairs of Roads in Three j Years, - - - -J conical and cylindrical. Observations on, cylindrical, a Reduction of Tolls on, is allowed by ") 3G.4., - - - -j" and Axles cylindrical are the best for Roads, and ") Reasons for, . - . - J common conical, with fiat Soles, preserve Turnpike Roads, and on some Roads in Worcestershire are allowed a Reduction of Tolls, for Gentlemen's Carriages, Tire of, made of refuse ") Needles, - - - - - J for Coaches with flat Soles, and not a rounded Tire, recommended for preserving the Roads, Experiments on, on the Worcester Road, Whitechapel Road, how paved, - - - Whitechapel or Essex Trust to Romford, bad State of, as to placing it under the Metropolitan Com °:} missioners, ... Petition to Trustees of Coach Proprietors, com- } :} } plaining of bad State of, M'hitehall Road. (See Leeds.) Winchester, Number of Trusts leading out of, the Consoli- dation of which would be beneficial, Winchester and Popham Lane Road Trust, WiTCHCKoss Road. (See Kennington Cross.) (See Cirencester.) WoottonBassett Road, Branch from Malmesbury to Ciren- ") cester, Mr. Pitt's Debtor and Creditor Account of, -/ Interest of Money advanced by Mr. Pitt to, repaid to T (See Chesterfield.) him, Worksop Road Worcester and Warwick Road, bad State and Repair of, Worcestershire, Materials used on Roads in, —~ Experiment on Wheels in, Stokes, 110. Vise. Lowther, 48. 49. Stokes, 113. J. M'Adam, 102. Stokes, 115. 116. 117. Stokes, 115. 116. 117. Stokes, 122. 123. 124. Stokes, } Stokes, Stokes, Stokes, Dacre, ' J. M'Adam, - J. M'Adam, - J. M'Adam, HoUis, Hollis, Bevir, - Pitt, - Stokes, Stokes, Stokes, 10f7. 123. Stokes, 115. 116. 11 Stokes, 107. Macneill, 128. Stokes, 107. 108. 109. 109.110. 108. 105. 99. 99. 99. 154. 155. 154. 141. 115. 108. 114. 108. Q^ Ross 1 1 Kent Gatton and Povey Cross Surrey Plymouth, Eastern - Devon Brackley - - Northampton Dewsbury and Leeds - York First District of Ross- ") -n „i,: >-Ross shire - - - J Second District of Ross- 1 t> shire - - -1^°^^ Third District of Ross shire Maidstone and Bid' denden Wolverhampton Neath District North Shields and "1 Northumberland Morpeth, Branch A. /Durham Ditto, Branch B. - Ditto Carlisle and Longtown - Cumberland Campden - - Gloucester Dumfries and MoflFatt, 1 t^ /. . 4th District - : I Durafr.es - St. Albans and South Mims Horley and Cuckfield Birmingham, Dudley, and Wolverhampton Darlaston and Talk the Hill -{ Date lent. Stafford Glamorgan ^^} Herts - {Surrey ' Sussex -"\ Warwick - > Worcester -J Stafford ° } Stafford ■{ :} Hexham Elsdon Northumberland { Northumberland Rochdale and Burnley Lancaster Three Commotts - Carmarthen '"tzit r' .} Wilts Marlborough and Coate Wilts Marlborough and Ever- ") ^^., Ruthin and Mold Swindon Monmouth District ^Denbigh - r Ipiint .1 Wilts - Monmouth Royston, SouthDistrict, "J Herts and Wansford Bridge J Huntingdon Ruthin and Wrexham Denbigh 23d Sept. 1817 - 2d June 1818 23d Oct. 1817 - 7th Oct. 1817 - 16th Feb. 1818 - 19th April 1820- 13th Dec. 1817- 13th Dec. 1817- 2d May 1818 - 30th Sept. 1817 27ihOct. 1817 1st April 1818 - 31st Oct. 1817 - 17th Feb. 1818 8th Nov. 1817 3d Oct. 1817 - 21st Jan. 1818 - 6th May 1818 - 5th July 1819 - 10th Dec. 1817 12th Feb. 1818 8th Dec. 1817 - 6th Jan. 1818 - 17th March 1823 11th May 1824 - Uth July 1826 - 28th Sept. 1818 18th April 1818 - 28thDec. 1826- 24th March 1818 27th April] 818 30th April 1822 24th June 1820 24th Sept. 1821 23d Jan. 1818 - 24th Jan. 1820 - 16th March 1818 24th June 1819 - 12th July 1832 2d April 1818 - 11th Jan. 1819 - 5th March 1822 - Amount lent. 3,500 2,000 1,000 100 5,000 4,000 1,000 1,000 1,200 1,500 6,000 1,100 500 1,500 500 650 2,500 5,000 1 1,000 J 5,000 1,500 3,000 800 3,000 1,000 1,000 300 3,000 6,000 2,000 500 1,500 1,300 400 300 1,000-1 1,000 5,000 1,700 800 3,550 1 1,500 Rate of Interest. 5 per Cent. Do. Do. Do. 5 per Cent., reduced ~j to 4 per Cent, per > ActSG. 4. C.86.-J Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. 5 per Cent. 4 per Cent. Do. 5 per Cent. 5 per Cent., reduced"^ to 4 per Cent, per > Act - -J Do. 5 per Cent. 5 per Cent., reduced "j to 4 per Cent, per > Act -J Do. Do. Do. Do. 5 per Cent. - -i h 5 per Cent., reduced In A no.- rjent. per , .Cap. 86. J to 4 per Cent, per > Act 3 G. 4. Cap. 86. J Do. Do. 5 per Cent. Do. 5 per Cent., reduced 1 to4perCent.perActj' Do. Rate of Sinking Fund. 10 per Cent. Do. Do. 30 and 40 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. Do. Do. Do. 10 per Cent. Do. 5 per Cent. 10 per Cent. 7^ per Cent. Do. 5 per Cent. 10 per Cent. 7^ per Cent. Do. Do. 10 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. ,- Do. 7 per Cent. 5 per Cent. 10 per Cent. 5 per Cent. 7^ per Cent. 20 per Cent. 8f per Cent. 5 per Cent. 10 per Cent. lOOl. per Ann. in- 1 eluding Interest J 5 per Cent. 7^ per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. 25 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 203 Appendix, No. 1. 5IMISS10NERS, stating the Name of the Trust and County, the Amount lent, the Date the same [such Repayment, and also the Sum remaining unpaid on the 1st Day of January 1833. Date of Annually >: ► Half-yearly [Annually Principal repaid. d. :} 1,000 100 3,500 2,400 750 750 644 10 8 1,425 6,000 770 500 1,500 500 487 10 2,500 6,000 5,000 1,500 3,000 800 1,350 400 420 195 3,000 1,800 1,950 500 1,500 527 3 4 400 300 600 1,000 3,250 800 2,307 10 750 Interest paid. Principal remaining unpaid on the 1st January 1833. £ S. d. 1,168 UJ 11 19 7 10 19 2,115 1,506 435 443 5 8 479 15 11 511 6 11 1,418 10 8 465 12 3 130 492 15 164 15 282 15 650 7 6 1,372 6 4 1,707 14 8 316 17 6 810 10 2 188 1 11 864 264 247 10 123 1 780 14 1,575 669 1 7 63 9 11 170 8 10 479 15 92 16 23 5 7 376 10 341 14 8 2,008 7 9 88 19 4 1,423 18 3 480 £ s, d. Interest due 1st January 1833. 3,500 0-. 2 962 10 2,000 0/ ^'^°'^ ^" 1,500 1,600 250 250 555 9 4 75 330 162 10 (24.) 1,650 600 580 105 4,200 50 772 16 8 400 1,750 1,700 1,242 10 750 Cc 2 52 5 6 44 17 9 10 3 10 3 81 8 11 3 15 2 9 18 2 1 11 8 Total unpaid 1st January 1833. 52 5 2 15 7 9 13 14 10 5 5 7 1 14 6 6 12 1 55 7 4 14 18 11 36 8 9 40 1 1 48 4 24 14 10 £ s. d. 8,462 10 1,552 5 6 1,644 17 9 250 10 3 250 10 3 636 18 3 78 15 2 339 18 2 164 1 8 1,702 5 2 615 7 9 593 14 10 110 5 7 4,201 14 6 56 12 1 828 4 414 18 11 1,786 8 9 1,740 1 1 1,290 14 774 14 10 Irregula Irregular. Irregular. (fiontinMed) 204 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Appendix, No. 1 . — An Account of Turnpike Trusts indeblei Name of Trust and County. Bala - Merioneth Llandovery and Llan- 1 „ , gaddock - .j Carmarthen Middlesex and Essex - { ™J''''' . Usk District - - Monmouth Plymouth and Exeter - Devon Benenden - Kent Newcastle, Lawton and Burslem ■] Stafford Newcastle and Leek - Stafford Maisemore North Queen's Ferry and Perth Bilston Gloucester { j Perth - Stafford Shipston on Stour - Worcester Lanarkshire Birmingham and Blake- 1 down - -/ Cheltenham and Pains wick :} Cambuslang, 2d District, Stratford and Dun-i church - -J Llangollen, Rhuabon, "1 and Wrexham J Northampton and Ket- "j tering -J Herefordshire, 3d Dis- "> trict - - i Ashford, Tenterden, ") and Biddenden -J Fin ford Bridge and Banbury Gloucester and "i Tewkesbury - J Kirkcudbrightshire Pontpool District Minehead and Bamp- f ton - - \ Wisbeach } Evesham, 2d District Abergavenny District of Monmouthshire Market Harborough and Brampton Pontblydden Spnl(ling and Bourne - East 'l'eignniouth,Daw-") lish, and Exminster -J Pont\ pool, Cardiff, and 1 ■{ Date lent. Lanark Warwick - \ Worcester - J Gloucester Lanark Warwick - i Denbigh Northampton Hereford Kent Warwick - ") Oxen , - -J Gloucester Kirkcudbright Monmouth Somerset -"} Devon - -J Cambridge Worcester and I Gloucester - J Monmouth -, r Northampton -~» < Huntingdon - > L Leicester -J 'Northampton Huntingdon ^Leicester Denbigh & Flint Lincoln Devon Merthyrlidvill Monmouth Glamorgan :} 8th January 1820 13th Feb. 1819 - 11th Dec. 1819 - llihAprill820 - 2d May 1820 - 23d Oct. 1820 - 1 0th Jan. 1 822 - 9th Feb. 1820 22d June 1821 - 17th Aug. 1820 ]8ih July 1826 - 10th April 1832- 20th April 1820^ 21st Feb. 1821 - 27th Dec. 1825 - 26th Aug. 1820- 18th April 1821 - 28th Sept. 1822- 31st Dec. 1819 - 29th April 1820- 29th May 1820 - 23d June 1820 - 6th March 1821 6th Sept. 1820 - 3d Nov. 1820 - 26th Nov. 1822 - 7 th August 1821 20th Aug. 1821 - 9th July 1822 - 20lhSept. 1822- 18thDec. 1822 - 5 th Dec. 1822 - 3Ist Jan. 1823 - 26th June 1823- 30th July 1823 - 31st July 1823 - 22d Aug. 1 823 - 7th July 1823 - 23d June 1824 - 4th Aug. 1824 - 12th July 1824 - 12th Nov. 1823 - 7ih June 1825 - Amount lent. £ 1,000 1 300 400. 10,000 3,000 8,500 r 8,000 1 800 1,200 1,000 1,200 1,500 Rate of Interest. 2,000 500 1,000 1,800 { 2,000 10,000 3,000 300 6,500 300 4,000 J 2,300 8,000 5,000 2,500 / 1,500 1,500 500 1,000 4,500 3,000 600 2,000 6,000 2,200 2,400 1,200 4,000 3,000 2,000 1,300 5 per Cent., reduced \ to 4 per Cent, per Act J 5 per Cent. 5 per Cent., reduced ") to 4 per Cent. perAct J Do. Do. 5 per Cent., reduced"! to 4 per Cent, per > Act 3 G. 4. c. 86. J Do. - Do. - Do. 5 per Cent. Do. - 5 per Cent., reduced "» to 4 per Cent, per > Act - -J Do. - 4 per Cent. 5 per Cent., reduced "^ to 4 per Cent, per > Act - -J Do. 4 per Cent. - 5 per Cent. 5 per Cent,, reduced"] to 4 per Cent, per > Act - -J Do. - Do. 5 per Cent., reduced ^ to 4 per Cent, per > Actof3G.4.c.86.J Do. Do. 4 per Cent. 5 per Cent, reduced to "J 4 per Cent, per Act J Do. Do. 4 per Cent. Do. Do. Rate of Sinking Fund, ' 5 per Cent. 5 per Cent. 10 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. 10 per Cent. 5 per Cent. 10 per Cent. 20 per Cent. 5 per Cent. 65 per Cent. 5 per Cent. - i Do. - Do. 6^ per Cent. - - ,»; 5 per Cent. - j Do. - - i Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. -{ Do. Do. 3f per Cent. Additional Toll 5 per Cent. Do. - 7 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. - Do. .£300, including-) Interest •/ 3 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. Do. - 12| per Cent. 6 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. Do. - Do. BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 205 the Exchequer Bill Loan CommissionerSj &c. — continued. Principal Date of Eepayment. Principal repaid. Interest paid. remaining unpaid on the 1st January 1833. Interest due 1st January 1833. Total unpaid 1st January 1833. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ S. d. £ s. d. _ 600 0.0 376 10 400 15 13 415 13 rTo be repaid ' by25thSept. .300 14 9 3 — — "^ .1820 - J Annually 260 157 16 140 6 2 140 6 2 ri - - ' 1,000 2,238 18 1 — — — , 1,800 1,129 10 1,200 31 19 1 1,231 19 1 Annual - 16,500 2,516 6 — — — . 800 197 12 — — _ 660 4l9 8 540 11 7 2 551 7 2 ^ 1,000 239 — — — . 1,200 180 — — — • — - 1,500 54 9 1,554 9 Half-yearly - 2,000 326 13 6 — — — rTobe repaid \ in 3 Years } 500 75 9 7 — — — - 1,000 80 ■^ "^~ Annually 1,080 661 10 720 10 5 730 5 1,100 699 900 25 6 11 925 6 11 „ 5,000 3,100 5,000 51 10 2 5,051 10 2 /Half-yearly - 3,000 564 10 2 — ™ ■~ Annually 300 105 10 11 — — — . 3,900 2,447 5 2,600 61 10 11 2,661 10 11 . . - 180 112 19 120 2 10 2 122 10 2 . . . 2,200 0, 1,398 14 10 1,800 59 3 6 1,859 3 6 1,380 845 5 920 11 13 10 ■ 931 13 10 Half-yearly - 8,000 1,639 12 4 1,980 3 2 1,983 2 3,360 7 8 3 6 3 3,363 13 11 I Annually 1,125 778 1 5 1,375 128 1,503 . ^ - 825 510 675 9 16 10 684 16 10 1 : _ 1,050 426 450 8 12 7 458 12 7 250 155 250 2 15 11 252 15 11 . 500 310 500 . 14 3 500 14 3 . . . 2,250 1,373 7 1 2,250 6 8 2 ^,256 8 2 h. . . 1,904 18 1 795 1 11 1,095 1 11 40 1 7 1,135 3 6 1 Half-yearly - w Annually 600 31 14 4 — ~ 900 588 1,100 18 11 3 1,118 11 3 2,700 1,728 3,300 55 6 7 3,355 6 7 . 990 633 12 1,210 17 7 5 1,227 7 5 ! ' * 2,400 432 — 648 285 8 1 552 9 8 9 561 8 9 ■ 1,600 750 1,081 9 5 764 8 9 2,400 2,250 39 3 9 132 8 2 2,439 3 9 2,382 8 2 Irregular : - - - 900 576 1,100 5 18 2 1,105 18 2 ■ _ - 455 309 8 845 19 3 5 864 3 5 (24.) Cc 3 (continued) 206 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Appendix, No. ]. — An Account of Turnpike Trusts indebted, Name of Trust and County. Lyme Regis Dartmouth and Tor- quay Caerleon District Cheltenham Beaconsfield and - 1 Stokenchurch - j Blackburn and Preston Princes Risboruugh and I Thame - J Court and Aberdovey - Winchester and Peters- 1 field - - J Macclesfield District of \ Sandon - / Colne and Broughton - < Holywell District Worthing and Lancing Durham and Tyne 1 Bridge - J Dorset ■ Devon Monmouth Gloucester Bucks Oxon Lancaster Bncks Oxon Merioneth Hants Chester Lancaster York Flint Sussex Durham Glasgow and Parkhead Lanark Parkhead and Woodend Western Division of - Bagsliot Puddle Hill Abbfy Tintern and Bigswear Thornton and Bradford District of Leeds and Halifax Kirkstall, llkley, and Shipley District of Leeds and Halifax Godlev Lane Head Lanark > Surrey Bedford "1 Monmouth J Gloucester York York York York Shipley, Idle, and Bramley Wiveliscombe - Somerset Eccleshill and Bradford York Halifax and Hudders-")^ , field - |Y"k Salterhebble, Stainland, ") „ , and Sowerby IJridge J Greenfield and Sheplev! t , r rj J }■ lork Lane Head - J Letds and Whitehall - York Hanley and Bucknall Ashborne, Leek, and Congleton Uttoxeter Bariisley and Cudworth Bridge Wakt field and Denby ' Dale Arrow and Pothooks Knd Newcastle and Blyth Marsh, &c. - StO'iey District of Minehead Stafford r Derby ■I Stafford LChester Staflford ■ York ^•York 1 Warwick J Worcester } Stafford } Devon Somerset Date lent. } :} :} 2/th Jan. 1824 - 3d March 1824 - 2d. I Illy 1824 - 23d Dec. 1825 - 23d Aug. 1825 - 8th Aug. 1826 - 22dSept. 1825 18th Sept. 1826- 23d Feb. 1826 24th Feb. 1826 - 20lh June 1826- 23d Oct. 1826 31st July 1826 - 7th Aug. 1826 - 19th Sept. 1826- 29th Sept. 1828- 24th Nov. 1828 - 28th Aug. 1826 - 13th Oct. 1826 - 27th July 1827 - 1st Dec. 1826 - 14th May 1827 - 2d July 1827 - « 24th Nov. 1826 - 5th April 1827 - 1st Dec. 1826 17th Nov. 1826- 19th April 1827- 5th Sept. 1827 22d April 1829 - 21st Sept. 1831 - 9th January 1828 5 th Nov. 1827 - 24th May 1831 - 26th Dec. 1827 - ISthDec. 1827- 9th Jan. 1828 30th Oct. 1829 - 11th April 1829 Amount lent. £ 2,300 6,000 1,000 1,000 10,000 5,000 10,000 2,000 1.000 600 7,500 2,500 2,500 1,000 3,000 2,400 i 3,600 4,000 2,000 3,000 6,000 9,000 ^,000 i 4,000 2,000 3,000 4,000 6,000 3,500 5,000 5,000 1,600 5,000 2,000 1,650 Rate of Interest. Rate of Sinking Fund. 4 per Cent. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. 5 per Cent. 4 per Cent Do. 5 per Cent. Do. Do. Do. Do. 5 per Cent., reduced , to 4| per Cent, per > Treasury Warrant J 7,00oJ 700 4,000 1,000 Do. 5 per Cent. - Do. Do. Do. Do. 5 per Cent., reduced") to 4 per Cent, per > Treasury Warrant J 5 per Cent. Do. Do. Do. 5 per Cent., reduced") to 4 per Cent, per > Treasury Warrant J Do. Do. Do. , Do. 5 per Cent. Do. 6 per Cent. Do. 5 per Cent. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. 10 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. Do. . Do. 5 per Cent. Do. Do. 5 per Cent., reduced") to 4 per Cent, per > Treasury Warrant J 5 per Cent. Do. Do. Do. Do. .£285 14*. 5 per Cent. Do. . Do. Do. ■ Do. Do. Do. 5i per Cent. 5 per Cent. 6 per Cent. Do. Do. 7i per Cent. 5 per Cent. 7| per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. Do. 3 per Cent. 5 per Cent. 3d. ■{ BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 207 the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners, &c . — continued. Date of Eepayment. Principal repaid. Interest paid. Principal remaining unpaid on the 1st January 1833. Interest due 1st January 1833. Total unpaid 1st January 1833. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ S. d. Annually 920 607 4 1,380 51 5 4 1,431 5 4 - 1,612 10 1,682 19 4,387 10 145 13 9 4,533 3 9 - 420 420 3,500 229 12 231 7 2,380 9 580 580 6,500 34 15 10 92 12 4 2 614 15 4 580 10 2 6,592 12 - 1,500 1,050 3,500 55 12 4 3,555 12 4 - a — 3,000 2,132 15 9 7,000 356 14 3 7,356 14 3 Irregular. . . 637 10 481 5 1,362 10 53 15 1,416 5 - 300 209 17 7 700 23 17 2 723 17 2 180 126 420 14 5 4 434 5 4 1- ' - 750 1,725 6,750 516 17 7 7,266 17 7 Irregular. 500 480 18 2,000 218 18 2.218 18 Irregular. - 750 658 19 10 1,750 36 13 6 1,786 13 6 . 300 262 10 700 14 714 s / 3,000 364 1 4 — — — i - 480 434 14 5 1,920 22 3 1,942 3 To be repaid 1 in 10 Years/ Annually 720 4,ogo 2,000 650 14 810 13 165 10 11 2,880 13 2 10 2,893 2 10 3,000 174 19 8 — — "~" - - 6,000 1,824 13 2 7,824 13 2 Irregular. - - 1,800 9,000 734 15 10 9,734 15 10 Irregular. 2,000 1,736 6,000 119 13 5 6,119 13 5 L _ 4,000 1,220 5 6 5,220 5 6 Irregular. f - - 500 450 1,500 3,000 55 9 912 6 7 7 1,555 9 7 3,912 6 7 Irregular. y ■ - , 1,320 1,035 2,680 16 3 1 2,696 3 1 1,500 1,251 4,500 126 4 11 4,626 4 11 1 1 1 1 1 • 1 1 1 1 630 1,886 10 480 5 723 2 718 9 272 12 7 2,870 3,113 9 5,000 1,120 7 36 15 76, 1 255 6 43 16 11 6 11 4 2,906 15 11 3,189 11 n 5,255 6 11/ 1,163 16 4 Irregular. 1,250 ],125 3,750 28 15 4 3,778 15 4 ■l 150 330 100 311 15 8 1,850 1,320 56 66 18 2 1,906 2 1,386 18 ■ 700 1,438 10 6,300 11 11 6,311 11 . 140 129 10 560 27 6 2 587 6 2 Half-yearly 720 555 3,280 27 17 2 3,307 17 2 1 Annually (24.) 150 144 15 7 850 Cc i 30 14 9 880 14 9 {continued) 208 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Name of Trust and County. Kingsbridge, Dait-"» mouth, Modbury, > Devon and Salcombe -J Wakefield and Halifax York Rhyader and Llangerrig Gomersall and Dews- bury - - - Birmingham andBroms- grove f Radnor \ Montgomery j York } Warwick Worcester :} ■{ :} Breamish and Wooler - Northumberland Lemsford Mills, Wei- wyn, and Hitchin - Radnorshire Watling Street Wakefield Ings {■ Herts Radnor f Stafford and Lei \ cester - York :} Highland Roads and") Bridges - -J o Pi -a Wellington District of Watling Street Hockliffe and Old Stratford Dunchurch and Stonebridge Shiflhal District Wolverhampton District St. Albans Dis- . trict ■(Salop J Stafford \ Bedford / Warwick > Warwick Salop Stafford -} -{ I Herts For England and Wales For Scotland Appendix, No. 1. — An Account of Turnpike Trusts indebte| Bate lent. 18th April 1829 17th August 1829 27th Jan. 1830 - 4th March 1830 ] 3th June 1831 13th April 1832 6th Feb. 1832 - 18th Jan. 1832 - 28th Jan. 1832 - 12ih March 1832 5th Oct. 1832 - 22dAug. 1820 - 15th June 1821 - 15th June 1821 - 11th July 1823 - 15th June 1821 - 15th June 1821 - 15th June 1821- 11th July 1823 11th July 1823 - Total si Total ^ Amount lent. ,000 i { 6; 10,000 1,000 2,000 1,500 8,000 ]2,000-| 5,000 3,000 1,000 1,000 51,450, 2,000; 7,000 1,500 5,500 1 2,000 2,500 500 10,000 488,800 401,850 86,950 488,800 Bate of Interest. 5 per Cent., reduced ^ tc 4i perCent. per > Treasury Warrant J 5 per Cent., reduced 1 to 4 per Cent, per > Treasury Warrant J Do. 5 per Cent. Do. Do. 5 per Cent., reduced to 4 per Cent, per Treasury Warrant 5 per Cent. Do. Do. } Do. This Loan Rate of Sinking Fund. 5 per Cent. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. 8 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. was advanced to the Commis-'' sioners of Highland Roads and Bridges by Directions in an Act 1 Geo. 4. (Pages 1 2 and 1 3,) intituled " An Act for making and maintaining certain Roads and Bridges in the Counties of Lanark and Dunbarton " 5 per Cent., reduced"* to 4 per Cent. ])er Act 3 G. 4. c. 86. Do. 4 per Cent. 5 per Gent.,reduced to 1 4 per Cent, per Act J Do. Do. 4 per Cent. Do. Additional Toll Do. Do.. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Exchequer Bill Loan Office, South Sea House, 2d March 1833. } J. STRETTELL BRICKWOOD, Secretary. BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 209 the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners, &c. — (continued.) Date of Bepayment. Principal repaid. Interest paid. Principal remaining unpaid on the 1st January 1833. Interest due 1st January 1833. Total Unpaid 1st January 1833. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ S. d. £ S. d. Annually 900 799 10 5,100 161 11 10 5,261 11 10 i' " 1,500 1,335 8,500 126 13 9 8,626 13 9 . 1,000 100 — _ - 100 100 1,900 1,500 173 12 116 6 2,073 12 0\ 1,616 6 0/ Irregular. 1 ^ ^ - - - - 8,000 287 2 6 8,287 2 6 - . - 12,000 431 6 10 12,431 6 10 . - . - 5,000 237 13 5 5,237 13 5 - - . 3,000 138 9 10 3,138 9 10 - - . . - ' - 1,000 40 5 6 1,040 5 6 i " - 1,000 11 18 4 1,011 18 4 I - - 51,450 - 51,450 Half-yearly - 2,000 442 15 4 __ , . 7,000 669 2 4 } 2,470 19 11 { 830 17 8 } 16 7 847 4 8 5,500 1,247 8 5 — — — 1 1,805 14 8 2,500 500 711 5 4 } 787 6 1 194 5 4 3 4 8 197 10 Annually 3,280 14 6 3,417 6 10 6,719 5 6 127 7 9 6,846 13 3 - 210,926 6 4 95,442 1 277,873 13 8 13,497 13 5 291,371 7 1 ■ - . ,191,796 17 7 84,461 11 7 210,053 2 5 13,189 17 6 223,242 19 11 ■ 19,129 8 9 10,980 9 5 67,820 11 3 307 15 11 68,128 7 2 - 210,926 6 4 95,442 1 277,873 13 8 13,497 13 5 291,371 7 1 JAMES GREEN, Accountant. (24.) Dd 210 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Appendix, No. 2. A.N ACCOUNT of Turnpike Trusts in England and Wales indebted to the Exchequeh*^ the same was lent, the Rate of Interest, the Rate of Sinking Fund, the Sum paid for*' and also the Sum remaining unpaid on* Name of Trust and County. Beaconsfield and Princes Risborough and Thame - HockliffeandOldStrat ford - Cambridge - Carmarthen ;aconsheld and "1 „ , j n Stokenchurch - .) Bucks and Oxon - > Bucks and Oxon - } Bedford andWar- J wick - -| Wisbeach Three Commctts Llandovery and Llan-T „ ^, gaddock - ) Carmarthen Macclesfield District of i _, ^ Sandon - .) Chester - Carlisle and Longtown Cumberland Ruthin and Wrexham Denbigh - LlanaroUen, Rhuabon, l „ i • i and Wrexham .| Denbigh - Ruthin and Mold Pontblydden - - Denbigh and Flint - Denbigh and Flint Ashborne, Leek, and 1 Derby, Stafiford, \ Congleton - -J and Chester -J East Teignmouth, Daw- 1 _. lish. and Exminster J "^"^^^ > Devon ■.} Dartmouth and Tor- quay Kingsbridge, Dart- mouth, Modbury, and Salconibe Stowey District of \ Devon and -J Somerset Devon Minehead Lyme Regis Durham and Tyne - Dorset f Durham - - Flint - Glamorgan Gloucester - Gloucester >■ Gloucester - Gloucester andTewkes- " bury Cheltenham Winchester and PeterS' field Bridge Holywell District Neath District - Campden Maisemore Cheltenham and PainS' wiek > Gloucester Gloucester - > Hants Date lent. 8th Aug. 1826 - I8thSept. 1826- 15th Junel821- lIthJuly 1823 - 3 1st July 1823 - 24th March 1818 11th Dec. 1819- 20th June 1826- 8th Nov. 1817 ■ 11th Jan. 1819 - 5th March 1822 7th Aug. 1821 24th Jan. 1820 - 4th Aug. 1824 - 5th Nov. 1827 - 12th Nov. 1823 3d March 1824 - 18th April 1829 - 11th April 1829- 27th Jan. 1824 - 19th Sept. 1826 31st July 1826 - 1st April 1818 - 3d Oct 1817 - 26th Aug. 1820 - 6th March 1821 5th Dec. 1822 - 23d Aug. 1825 - 24ih Feb. 1826 - Amount lent. 5,000 2,000 7,000 { 1,500 6,000 2,000 I 400 7,500 500 I 3,550 \ 1,500 ; Rate of Interest. 2,500 1,000 4,000 5,000 2,000 6,000 6,000 1,000 2,300 3,000 2,500 1,100 I 650 1,800 4,000 4,500 10,000 600 Rate of Sinking Fund. 4 per Cent. 5 per Cent. - 5 per Cent., reduced T to 4 per Cent. - J 4 per Cent. Do. 5 per Cent., reduced I to 4 per Cent. - J Do. 5 per Cent. 5 per Cent., reduced "i to 4 per Cent. -J Do. Do. - Do. 4 per Cent. 5 per Cent. 4 per Cent. Do. 5 per Cent. Do. 4 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. - 5 per Cent., reduced ■» to 4 per Cent. - / Do. Do. - Do. 4 per Cent. - Do. Do. 5 per Cent. Do. Additional Toll Do. 5 per Cent. 7| per Cent. 5 per Cent. 10 per Cent. 7^ per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. . Do. Do. - Do. Do, - Do. Do. - Do. Do. - Do. Do. - Do. Do. - Do. Do. - Do. Do. - Do. BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 211 Appendix, No. 2. ILL Loan Commissioners, stating the Name of the Trust and County, th,e Amount lent, the Date iterest, and the Amount of Principal repaid, in the Year 1829, ending the 1st January 1830 ; le 1st Day of January 1830. i*— Date k of Bepayment. Principal repaid in Year 1829. Interest paid in Year 1829. Total Payments in Year 1829. Principal remaining unpaid 1st Jan. 1830. Interest due 1st Jan. 1830. Total unpaid on 1st Jan. 1830. £ S. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ S. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. Annually 250 180 430 '0 4,250 67 10 8 4,317 10 8 Do. • 100 88 15 188 15 1,700 24 4 4 1,724 4 4 Half-yearly .- [ . Do. -/ 834 4 171 1 7 1,005 5 7 3,634 13 6 72 2 3,706 15 6 ■Annually 300 180 480 4,200 70 17 8 4,270 17 8 Do. 150 21 18 2 171 18 2 350 10 16 4 360 16 4 . Do. 40 18 8 58 8 200 8 9 200 8 9 ' Do. - . 337 10 337 10 6,750 179 7 8 6,929 7 8 r Do. 37 10 3 10 41 50 5 10 50 5 10 Do. 252 10 120 2 372 12 2,750 101 4 2,851 4 « Do. 125 65 190 1,500 24 1,524 = Do. 50 24 74 550 20 11 570 11 . Do. 200 128 328 3,000 48 19 8 3,048 19 8 - Do. 250 237 10 487 10 4,500 34 10 5 4,534 10 5 Do. 100 60 160 1,400 7 10 4 1,407 10 4 \- Do. 337 10 216 553 10 5,062 10 168 2 4 5,230 12 4 1 ' Do. - . . 6,000 211 4 8 6,211 4 8 1 Do. . . - - - 1,000 36 3 3 1,036 3 3 |- Do. . - 115 73 12 188 12 1,725 63 17 11 1,788 17 11 5 ' Do. 2,700 71 11 4 2,771 11 4 — — — 1 -' Do, 125 112 10 237 10 2,125 44 10 9 2,169 10 9 . Do. 55 22 77 495 14 17 3 509 17 3 1- Do. • Do. 32 10 ^0 90 ^0 11 14 43 4 44 4 133 4 260 990 2 10 8 13 15 7 262 10 8 1,003 15 7 - Do. 200 104 304 2,400 78 18 1 2,478 18 1 • Do. 292 17 4 127 17 420 14 4 2,728 15 7 11 11 2,729 7 6 '^ Do. 500 340 840 8,000 113 19 6 8,113 19 6 ' Do. 30 21 12 51 12 510 17 6 6 527 6' 6 Dd 2 (continued) 212 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Appendix No. 2. — An Account of Turnpike Trusts indebted Name of Trust and County. Date lent. St. Albans Herefordshire, 3d Dis- trict Maidstone and Bidden- den Benenden Ashford,Tenterden,and \ Bidden den J Roclidale and Burnley Blacliburn and Preston Colne and Broughton - < Spalding and Bourn - Bala Court and Aberdovey - Monmouth District Usk District Abergavenny District - Caerleon District Pontypool, Cardiff, and ") Merthyrtidvill -J Northampton and Ket- tering Herts Hereford Kent Kent - - 1 Kent Lancaster Lancaster Lancaster and ") York - -J Lincoln - Merioneth Merioneth Monmouth Monmouth Monmouth Monmouth -/ Monmouth and \ Glamorgan - J > Northampton - Market Harborou and Brampton Hexham Elsdon gh r Northampton, '^ Huntingdon, > and Leicester J Northumberland { North Shields and Mor- ' peth. Branch B. Shiffnal District Wellington District of") Watling Street -J Wolverhampton Dis-") trict - -J Darlaston and Talk o' th' Hill Newcastle,Lawton,and Burslem Hanley and Bucknall Newcastle and Blyth Northumberland Northumberland 1 and Durham J } } Salop Salop and Staf- ford - Stafford Stafford - Marsh Wiveiiscombe Minehead and Bamp-l ton J Gatton and Povey Cross Western Division of") Bagshot ■■ J Horley and ()uck6eld -< Stafford - Stafford - Stafford - Somerset -{ Somerset and "1 Devon - J Surrey - -i Surrey Surrey and Sus- 1 sex - - J 11th July 1823 - 9th July 1822 - 30th Sept. 1817' 9th Feb. 1820 - 22d June 1821 20th Sept. 1822- 28th Dec. 1826 - 22d Sept. 1825 - 23d Oct. 1826 - 12th July 1824 - 8th Jan. 1820 - 23d Feb. 1826 - 24th June 1819 - 2d May 1820 7th July 1823 - 2d July 1824 23d Dec. 1825 - 7th June 1 825 20th Aug. 1821 23d June 1824 - 17th March 1823 llth May 1824 - 11th July 1826 - 28thSept. 1818- 17th Feb. 1818 - 15th June 1821 - 15th June 1821 - 15th June 1821 llth July 1823 8th Dec. 1818 - 1 7th Aug. 1 820 - 18th July 1826 - 9th Jan. 1828 - 30th Oct. 1829 - 5th April 1827 - 30th July 1823 - 23d Sept. 1817 - 2dJunel818 - 28th Aug. 1826 - lOih Dec. 1817 - Amount lent. 10,000 ,500 1 Rate of Interest. 1,500 800 1,200 500 6,000 10,000 2,500 3,000 1,000 1 1,000 5,000 1 3,000 2,400 1,0001 1,000/ 1,300 1,600 I 1,200 3,000 1,000 1,000 300 I 1,500 2,000 2,000 2,500 500 3,000 I ],000 1,200 1,600 4,000 2,000 2,000 3,500 ") 2,000 J 4,000 5,000 I 4 per Cent. 5 per Cent., reduced ") to 4 per Cent. -J Do. Do. Do. Rate of Sinking Fund. 4 per Cent. 5 per Cent. 4 per Cent. 5 per Cent, 4 per Cent. 5 per Cent., reduced ") to 4 per Cent. -J 4 per Cent. - 5 per Cent., reduced "| to 4 per Cent. -J Do. 4 per Cent. Do. Do. 5 per Cent., reduced ") to 4 per Cent. J 4 per Cent. Do. Do. 5 per Cent. - 5 per Cent., reduced ") to 4 per Cent. -J Do. Do. Do. Do. - - ■> 4 per Cent. - -J 5 per Cent., reduced 1 to 4 per Cent. -J Do. 5 per Cent. Do, Do. Do. 4 per Cent. 5 per Cent. - Do. 5 per Cent., reduced ") to 4 per Cent. J 5 per Cent. - 7 per Cent. - 10 per Cent. Do. 5 per Cent. - Do. 5 per Cent. - Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. 1 2§ per Cent. 6 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. 6 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. 7 per Cent. 5 per Cent. 7^ per Cent. Additional Toll Do. Do. 10 per Cent. Do. 20 per Cent. 71 per Cent. 3 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Do. 1 per Cent. 7| per Cent. BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. ) Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners, &c. — continued. 213 Date of Repayment. Principal repaid in Year 1829. Interest paid in Year 1829. Total Payments in Year 1829. Principal remaining unpaid 1st Jan. 1830. Interest due 1st Jan. 1830. Total unpaid on 1st Jan. 1830. Annually £ S. d. 543 7 2 £ S.. d. 397 17 11 £ s. d. 941 5 1 £ s. d. 9,404 7 £ S. d. 178 5 10 £ s. d. 9,582 6 5 Do. ' - 105 34 16 139 16 765 14 13 5 779 13 5 Do. 75 12 8 5 87 8 5 225 2 4 10 227 4 10 Do. Do. J. 140 37 12 177 12 800 18 1 7 818 1 7 Do. 25 14 39 325 3 12 8 328 12 8 Do. 300 270 570 5,100 2 1 11 5,102 1 11 Do. 500 343 16 8 843 16 8 8,000 87 13 5 8,087 13 5 Do. - - - . - 2,375 259 19 2,634 19 Do. - . . 2,688 3 7 128 3 2,816 6 7 Do, 50 24 74 550 ■■■■ 21 10 4 571 10 4 Do. 50 36 86 850 28 19 5 878 19 5 Do. 250 110 360 2,500 52 1 1 2,552 1 1 , Do. 150 72 222 1,650 43 18 8 1,693 18 8 . Do. 300 36 336 600 11 12 9 611 12 9 Do. 120 63 4 183 4 1,460 14 12 7 1,474 12 7 Do. 65 44 4 109 4 1,040 23 11 10 1,063 11 10 Do. 75 39 114 900 13 2 4 913 2 4 Do. 72 33 12 105 12 768 13 2 7 781 2 7 Do. Dj. I 270 165 435 3,640 104 9 3 3,744 9 3 Do. J Do. 15 6 21 135 1 8 136 8 Do. 112 10 15 127 10 262 10 9 2 5 271 12 5 Half-yearly - 299 8 9 59 11 3 359 1,216 7 4 20 5 2 1,236 12 6 Do. 237 5 6 12 14 6 250 139 12 6 2 8 141 13 2 Do. - 115 9 4 12 119 12 9 — — — 1 Annually 300 12 312 — — — 1 Do. 1 Do. 1 340 120 44 80 384 200 580 1,480 12 8 72 3 6 592 8 1,552 3 6 Half-yearly - 1 -Annually n^ Do. 100 95 195 4,000 1,800 1,500 33 19 5 66 11 6 85 6 3 4,033 19 5 1,866 11 6 1,585 6 3 ' Do. To be repaid in , 10 Years ji Annually 1 330 15 337 10 169 5 31 10 500 369 5,500 3,054 5 762 10 3,158 2 7 52 5 10 89 4 6 8,658 2 7 3,105 10 10 851 14 6 " (24.) Dd S 1 1 {continuet 214 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Appendix, No. 2 An Account of Turnpike Trusts indebted Name of Trust and County. Date lent. Amount lent. Rate of Interest, Rate of Sinking Fund. Worthing and Lancing Sussex 7th Aug. 1826 - £ 1,000 5 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Marlborough and Coate Wills - 24th June 1820 - 1,300 1 5 per Cent., reduced \ to 4 per Cent. - J Do. * - iMarlborough and Ever- 1 ley - - -/ Wilts 24th Sept. 1821 400 Do. 10 per Cent. Swindon Wilts 16th March 1818 1,000 Do. 7| per Cent. Stratford and Dun-~ church - -J Warwick -{ 3d Nov. 1820 - 26th Nov. 1822 - 8,000 5,000 Do. - - " 4 per Cent. -j' Additional Tolls - Finford Bridge and \ Banbury - -J ^^'arwick and Oxon } 18th Dec. 1822 - 1,000 Do. 5 per Cent. Birmingham and Blake- \ down - - J Warwick and Worcester } 23d June 1820 300 1 5 per Cent., reduced \ to 4 per Cent. J Do. - - Arrow and Pothooks "1 End .. J Warwick and Worcester } 9th Jan. 1828 - 700 5 per Cent. Do. Shipston on Stour Worcester 29th April 1820 300 1 5 per Cent., reduced ") to 4 per Cent. - J Do. - - Evesham, 2d District - / Worcester and") Gloucester - J 22d Aug. 1823 - 2,200 4 per Cent. Do. Dewsbury and Leeds - York I 16th Feb. 1818 - 19ih Aprin820- 5,000") 4,000 J 5 per Cent., reduced ") to 4 per Cent. - / Do. Halifax and Hudders- ' field - -]■ York - 17thNov. 1826- 4,000 5 per Cent. 5i per Cent. Shipley, Idle, and Bram- " ley" - -/ York - 24thNov. 1826- 4,000 Do. 5 per Cent. Thornton and Bradford"^ District of Leeds and > Halifax - -J York - 1st Dec. 1826 6,000 Do. Do. Kirkstall and Ilkleyl District of Leeds and > Halifax - -J York - 14th May 1827 9,000 Do. Do. Godley Lane Head York 2d July 1827 - 8,000 Do. Do. Eccleshill and Bradford York - 1st Dec. 1826 - 3,000 Do. Do. Salterhebble,Stainland, 1 and Sowerby Bridge j York - 19th April 1827 6,000 Do. Do. Greenfield and Shepley \ Lane Head - - J York" - 5th Sept. 1'827 - 3,500 Do. 6 per Cent. Leeds and Whitehall - York - 22d April 1829 - 5,000 Do. Do. Barnsley and Cudworth ") Bridge - - J York - 26th Dec. 1827- 1,650 Do. 5 per Cent. Wakefield and Denby") Dale - - / York - 15th Dec. 1827 - 7,000 Do. Do. Wakefield and Halifax York 17th Aug. 1829 - Total 10,000 Do. Do. 290,750 Exchequer Bill Loan Office, "i South Sea House, London, > 15th April 1833. J J. STRETTELL BRICKWOOD, Secretary. BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. to Exchequer Bill Loan Cominissioners, &c. — continued. 215 Date of Bepayment. Principal repaid in Year 1829. Interest paid in Year 1829. Total Payments in Year 1829. Principal remaining unpaid 1st Jan. 1830. Interest due 1st Jan. 1830. Total unpaid on 1st Jan. 1830. ' Annually £ s. d. 50 £ S. d. 45 £ s. d. 95 £ S. d. 850 £ S. d. 17 £ S. d. 867 Do. •• - — . - 845 85 3 10 930 3 10 Do. 40 4 16 44 16 80 17 2 80 17 2 Do. 150 29 3 3 179 3 3 175 5 11 2 180 11 2 Half-yearly - 1,208 13 2 38 2 7 1,246 15 9 5,000 1,419 3 6 6,419 3 6 Annually 50 28 78 650 18 6 650 18 6 1' Do. 15 7 4 22 4 165 3 9 1 168 9 1 ^ Do. 35 35 70 665 32 8 7 697 8 7 , Do. 15 7 4 22 4 165 4 8 11 169 8 11 Do. 110 66 176 1,540 22 2 2 1,562 2 2 1 ^^ - 450 196 646 4,450 140 2 7 4,590 2 7 i ''°- ' 220 178 398 3,340 20 2 7 3,360 2 7 1 Do- - . . . 4,000 620 5 6 4,620 5 6 1 Do. - - - . 6,000 924 13 2 6,924 13 2 .1 Do. - . - • • " - 9,000 1,184 15 10 10,184 15 10 . , 'i Do. 400 380 780 7,200 179 10 1 7,379 10 1 i; . . - 3,000 462 6 7 3,462 6 7 1/ , , Do. 300 285 585 ' 5,400 189 7 4 5,589 7 4 , 1 Do. ,210 164 10 374 10 3,080 49 7 3 3,129 7 3 V Do. V ■> ~ - •■ * - 5,000 173 5 9 5,173 5 9 i Do. . - - - - 1,567 10 79 9 1,646 19 11 Do. . 350 332 10 682 10 6,300 13 16 2 6,313 16 2 Do. - \. - - . 10,000 186 6 10,186 6 16,168 11 8 6,839 8 8 23,008 4 208,673 18 1 11,867 8 6 220,541 6 7 ,f JAMES GREEN. Accountant. (24.) Dd4 216 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Appendix, No. 3. Letter from B. Morrell Esq. to W. Courtenay Esq. , -k-t n Appendix, No. 3. Letter from B. Morrell Esq. to W. Courtenay Esq., dated Oxford, 13th May 1833. Sir, I WAS absent from Oxford for some Days after your Letter of the 27th ult., addressed to Mr. R. Morrell, arrived, which has caused some Delay in its being answered. I now beg to transmit the Acgounts of 1830 and 1831 which you mentioned, with such Answers to your Questions as appear to be required. I have the Honour to be. Sir, Your obedient humble Servant, W. Courtenay Esq. Baker Morrell. Saint Clement's Turnpike Trust. Question 1. — When was the Debt created? Answer. It was created between 1771 and 1788, to the Amount of about 16,500/., of which about 5,500/. was paid off by Degrees, and a new Debt of 4,000/. created in 1821 and 1822. Question 2. —How does it happen that the Debt is so large, and that it has not been reduced in a greater degree ? Answer. The original Debt was incurred in building a new Bridge, called Magdalen Bridge, on the London Road into Oxford, in making commodious En- trances, and in other Works ; and the new Debt arose from the carrying of other Improvements into effect, viz. the Removal of Houses and widen- ing the Streets mentioned in the Schedules to the Act of 1771, the Pro- visions of which are continued by the subsequent Acts. Question 3. — What are the Particulars of the Expenditure, viz., how much for Materials how much for Labour, respectively ? Answer. The Mileways having been repaired for some Years by Contract, the Parti- culars cannot be given. The Accounts for 1830 and 1831, which are asked for, are sent. Baker Morrell, Clerk to the Commissioners. BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 217 General Statement of the Income and Expenditure of Saint Clement's Turnpike Roads or MiLEWAYs, between 28th October 1829 and 27th October 1830. EXPENDITURE. INCOME. Paid Contractors repairing the Mileways 1 for One Year, to 1st September 1830 J Paid for the Repair of the Bridge, Toll •) House, and Gates - - - - J Paid on account of Land purchased Paid Salaries to the Clerk, Treasurer, \ and Surveyor - - ■ - - j Paid Printing and Advertising Paid Interest of Debt - - Paid lighting the Bridge and repairing 1 Lamp Irons - - - _ j Paid incidental Charges ... £ £ s. d. 380 64 9 15 2 2 36 8 17 7 722 3 51 15 6 6 15 8 1,284 14 8 By Balance in the Treasurer's Hands! 28th October 1829 - - -J By Amount of Rent received of William-j Harper, Fifty-one Weeks, at 34/. ISs. Id. > per Week, to the 13th October 1830 -J By Arrear of Rent received of Thomas l Hart, in full, to 29th September 1828 J £ £ s. d. 160 9 9 1,780 2 3 76 2,016 12 General Statement of Debts and Credits. Amoiint of Debt bearing Interest at 5/ per Cent. - . Z . _ j Amount of Interest due 10th October! 1830 . . ./ Amount of Floating Debt. Mr. William Harper in advance, on his 1 taking - . _ J Sundries, about - . . ^ £ s. d. 15,264 , 449 6 70 100 15,883 6 William Harper, Two Weeks Tolls, due") 27 October 1830 - - -J £ s. d. 69 16 2 October 27, 1830. This Account was examined, audited, and allowed at a General Annual Meeting of the Commissioners this Day held at the Town Hall, Oxford. (Signed) Wm. Slatter, Chairman. General Statement of the Income and Expenditure of Saint Clement's Turnpike Roads or Mileways, between 27th October 1830 and 26th October 1831. EXPENDITURE. Paid Contractors repairing the Mileways "i for One Year, to 1st September 1831 J Paid for the Repair of the Bridge, Toll \ House, and Gates - - - J Paid for Land purchased Paid Salaries and other Payments to the "1 Clerk, Treasurer, and Surveyor - J Paid Printing and Advertising - Paid Interest of Debt Paid lighting the Bridge and repairing! Lamp Irons - -• - -J Paid incidental Charges - - Paid for Rent of Quarries - - - £ £ s. d. 380 3 16 4 413 6 11 221 12 8 10 720 15 3 6 56 18 7 1 15 1 1,815 8 5 INCOME. Bv Balance in the Treasurer's Hands 27th ") 'October 1830 - - - J By Amount of Rent received of William "^ Harper Fifty-one Weeks, at 341. 18s. Id. > per Week, due the 6ih of October 1831 J Received of Messrs. Walker and Co., Dif"~j ference between the Purchase and Sale > of lllZ. 17s. 3d. Consols - -J £ s. d. 731 17 4 1,780 2 3 2 10 4 2,514 9 11 Amount of Debt bearing Interest at 51. per Cent. - - - - Amount of Interest due 10th October 1831 . - - - General Statement of Debts and Credits £ s. d. } Amount of Floating Debt. Mr. William Harper in advance, on his \ takin? - - - 'J taking Sundries about 15,264 452 7 70 50 15,836 7 William Harper, Two Weeks Tolls, due" 20tb October 1831 £ s. d. 69 16 2 26th October 1831. This Statement, was approved by all the Commissioners present at a General Annual Meeting this Day held at the Town Hall, Oxford. (Signed) Wm. Slatter, Chairman. (24.) E e 218 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Appendix, No. 4. Edward Duke Esq. APPENDIX, No. 4. to the ' Chairman of tbie Committee. Edward Duke Esq. to the Chairman of the Committee, dated Lake House, near Amesbury, June 28th 1833. M)' Lord Duke, It was my Intention long since to have again addressed you (in consequence of what transpired on my Examination before your Committee) on the Subject of the present Opera- tion of the Turnpike in general, but more especially as to the Amesbury and the Fisherton Districts of Roads, had I not been prevented by sudden and severe Illness. Before, however, I enter on these more restricted Observations, I hope your Grace will allow me to make a few general Observations. There exists a very prevalent Desire amongst the Agricultural Occupiers to rid them- selves of the Statute Duty on the Turnpike Roads, and as on many Trusts (which are governed on Acts passed prior to the last Qualification Act,) such Occupiers form the Majority of Trustees, they have taken on themselves to set aside the Obligation- of Statute Duty, without affixing on themselves any nionied Payment in lieu, and have thus thrown the whole Burden of the Roads on the Public in general, keeping up the higher Scale of Tolls, which, by the faithful Discharge of Statute Duty, might have been thus otherwise lowered. For this Course of Proceeding they allege these Reasons : — that the Tolls are sufficient to keep the Roads in repair without the Aid of Statute Duty, and that it is very hard that they should be both called on for Statute Duty, (from which the Public in general is exempt,) and yet that they have equally to pay Toll as well as the Public. On these Principles the Trustees of the Fisherton District, aided by the Counsel of two Attornies of Influence in their Neighbourhood, have freed themselves from the Statute Duty, and have wholly thrown the Repairs of the Roads on the Public. I strongly, but ineffectually opposed this Measure, both as illegal and unjust, and on these Arguments — that the Legislature con- templated in the General Act the Permanence of that Duty to which they were before liable by the Statute and Common Law ; that there no where existed a Clause, either in the General or their Local Act, which would enable them to supersede their Statute, with the sole Exception of a Power under the Permission of the Magistracy, temporarily only, to supersede the Statute by Transfer, under certain Circumstances, in airf of the Repair of other Parochial Roads ; that in my Opinion the alleged Hardship of their Statute existed only in their own Imaginations ; that the Turnpike Roads in general were also necessary as Parochial Roads; that were those Roads not Turnpike they would be bound to keep them wholly in repair by their Statute Duty ; that the Tolls were auxiliary to the Statute Duty, and not the Statute Duty in aid of the Tolls ; that the Tolls kept and retained the Roads in that extra State of Repair to which the Statute Duty alone would not attain ; that where a Turnpike Gate interfered with the Cultivation of their Farms, they were freed from its Tolls, and that their Statute Duty did no more than repair their Injuries, and the Wear and Tear which was effected by their Horses, Waggons, Carts, &c. in their continual passing and repassing to and from their Lands. To this I added, that there was no Reason why they, as well as the Public in general, should not pay for their Passage through the more distant Turnpike Gates. My Arguments were, however, unheeded ; and with the Assistance of the two Attornies (whose Clients the Trustees in general were) the Measure of the Removal of the Statute Duty was at once effected. The Meeting at which this illegal Transaction took place was held at Deptford Inn, in the Parish of Wily, on Friday, May 3. It was then determined to let the Repairs of the Roads, by Contract, free of Statute Duty, and an Advertisement was directed to be inserted in the Salisbury Journal for Tenders of Contract for the following Lines of Road ; and the Meeting to receive such Tenders was appointed to be held at the Red Lion Inn, Heytesbury, on Friday the 14th of June. The Contracts were to be for Two Years. 1. From Heytesbury Gate to the Milestone at the East End of Deptford. 2. From the said Milestone to Salisbury. 3. From Fugglestone St. Peter to Morris Bridge. 4. From Morris Bridge to Willoughby Hedge. 5. From Salisbury to the Bustard inn. 6. From the Bustard Inn to Red Hare Gate. I was by far too ill to attend to the Meeting of the 14th of June, but the following Result of the Tenders for Repairs free from Statute Duty is extracted from the Clerk's Books. No. 1. J. and H. Batten, - - 50/, per Mile. John Foley, - - 70/. x accepted. Wm. Imber, - - 55/. No. 2. J. and H. Batten, - 40/. Wm. Humbold, - 35/. John Hale, - - 50/. x accepted. No. 3. BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 219 No. 3. No. 4. No. No, 6. J. and H. Batten, John Hale, James King, Wm. Harwood, - J. and H. Batten, James King, J. and H. Batten, - W. Rumbold, Geo. Biggs, John Hale, John Chandler, - James Curtis, J. and H. Batten, - W. Rumbold, - George Biggs, John Hale, John Chandler, - James Curtis, 251. 50/. 50/. 35/. 20/. 37/. 10s. 15/. 8/. 10/. 10/. 91. .61. 15/. 8/. 10/. 10/. 7/. 61. per Mile. X accepted. X accepted. Appendix, No. 4, Edward Duke Esq. to the Chairman of the Committee. accepte^. X accepted. am an ness In this Enumeration, Nos. 5 and 6 form the Road from Salisbury towards Devizes and IS the Road I alluded to in my Examination when speaking of the relative Advan- *^Sf„,°f'^^Pey.fg by Surveyors and Contractors. These Roads^are thus contracted for at 10/. per Mile; whilst we repair the Road of the Amesbury District (of which I e Chairman), which crosses tbe other at Right Angles, at the Expence of somewhat less th ihat of 3/ per Mile. The Two Roads, with regard to Foundation, Access of Air, Goodn< and I'acihty of Materials, are exactly equal : the Amesbury Road has far more travelling, and IS in the best Repair. ° Tlie Mode of Repair by Contract is usually at a Disadvantage, and generally much exceeds m Expence the Repairs by a salaried Surveyor. I could wish, with much Defer- ence, the Repairs of Roads restricted to the latter Mode. The Evil of the honorary Surveyorships on the Fisherton Trust is a very great one • and .^ to remedy this, or any similar Evils on other Trusts, I would, with all Deference, suggest a Clause rendering it " incompetent for any Trustee to take on himself the Office of Clerk, Treasurer, Surveyor, or any other Office, under any Denomination whatever, either with or without a Salary, under the Penalty of Fifty Pounds." I now hope that your Grace will permit me to make a few Observations on the Office of Surveyor, and with deference to suggest some Plan to make the Statute Duty more regular and effective. Assuming that the Statute, which I aver to be the case, cannot be done away with, neither do I see any Reason wherefore it should, it remains to be considered wliether its Execution could not be placed on a better and more sure System. As to Section 80 of 4 Geo. IV., enabling Magistrates to apportion the Statute Duty between the Turnpike Road and the other Parish Roads, I have never known it called into Operation, and it would be extremely difficult to act on that Clause. At present the Execution of the Statute Duty is extremely irregular. Surveyors are often interested and biassed Parties, whether as "respects Parishes or Individuals. They are often deterred from their Duties by Awe. I would wish to see them placed in a more responsible as well as independent Situation, I therefore beg leave to suggest some such Plan as the following: " That every Surveyor on the Turnpike Road shall keep a Check Book, wherein he shall enter the Name of each Individual liable to Duty, the Amount of Duty to which he may be so liable, or the Amount of Composition entered into in lieu of that Duty. That he shall be summoned by the Clerk of the Magistrates of every District through which the Turnpike Road passes, to produce his Check Book at the Annual Meeting for the Appoint- ment of Surveyors of the Highways, and to testify his Account of Statute Duty done or Composition paid, on Oath. That he shall, in either Case, return all Defaulters, whom the Magistrates shall be empowered to summon before them ; and for every Case of Default proved on Oath by the Surveyor, they shall be empowered to fine in any Penalty not exceeding Five Pounds and Costs. From the great Difficulty of Execution as to Sect. 80, 4 Geo. IV., I would do away with that Arrangement, and empower the Surveyor to call for, if necessary, to the Amount of One Half, that is. Three Days for each Team, Statute Duty on the Turnpike Road ; and if there be Two such Roads in a Parish, then Two Thirds of the full Duty." It seems to me that an Arrangement of this kind would call into effective Operation a fair Quantum of Statute Duty, would arrest the present Irre- gularities, and would support, without the Powers of Evasion in any Party, the Duties of the Surveyor. With every Apology for the Trouble I have thus given to your Grace, I have the Honour to be. Your humble and obedient Servant, Edward Duke. (24.) Ee 2 220 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE JReport on the Surrey and Sussex A ^^^.,^^^ TVT^ K Turnoike Trust. APPENDIX, No. 5. Appendix, No. 5. JReport on the Surrey and Suss Turnpike Trust, Report on the Surrey and Sussex Turnpike Trust. Sir, Office of Roads, Charing Cross, 23th November 1828. In obedience to the Orders of the Trustees , of the Surrey and Sussex Roads, at their General Annual Meeting on the 20th September last, conveyed to me by your Letter of the 22d of same Month, directing me to report to the next General Meeting the Annual Sum of Money which may be considered necessary for the Repair of each Line of Road, the Quality of the Materials now used, and the Mode of applying them, with any other Obser- vations relating to the present State of those Roads which I might think proper ; I have the Honour to report to you, for the Information of the Trustees, that I have carefully surveyed the whole of the Roads of the Trust, inspected the Pits and Sources of Supply, examined the Materials and other Matters referred, and have ascertained the Strength of the several Lines by pitting them to the Subsoil, a Statement of which is subjoined ; and J shall now proceed to lay before the Trustees such Observations and Information as Circumstances have enabled me to obtain. CaMBERWELL DiSTRtCT. The Camberwell Division is repaired with Guernsey Granite^ Kentish Flint, and local Gravel. The Situation of the Roads in this District, lined with Buildings, and the Surface of the Road much under the Level of the Footpaths, and excluded by Houses, Walls, and Trees from the great Benefit of the Sun and Wind, and exposed to a very great Thorough- fare, renders it extremely desirable that the best possible Materials should be resorted to for the Repair of this Division ; and the complete Success of the Two Portions of Road made with Granite, One from the Elephant and Castle Inn, for a Quarter of a Mile, and the other to the End of East Lane, justifies this Opinion : a hard, smooth, and solid Surface is there fully attained, whilst the Inconvenience to the Public of repeated Coats of new Mate- ria], such as Flint and Gravel, is greatly mitigated. The great Facility afforded by Water Carriage to this District, for the Supply of imported Material, makes it doubly desirable that the principal Line to Camberwell, as well as that Portion of the New Cross Line through Peckham, should be formed and repaired with hard Stone ;. and it would be most advisable, in those Portions of this Division that have almost assumed the Character of Streets, that the Water Channels should be paved. The general Form of the Roads in this Division is good, although there are a few objectionable Rises across the main Line, made probably with the view to assist the Drainage, which ought to be' removed ; and Parts of the Peckham Line, which at present slopes entirely to one Side, require the cross Sections to be altered, and the Road properly formed and barrelled. The great and rapid Increase of Buildings in the immediate Neighbourhood of this Division of Road justifies the Expectation of a progressive Increase of Wear, which should be met by adopting the Use of the best Material. The whole of these Roads are suffering severely from the Want of Drainage, which requires immediate and great Attention, the Want of which produces a great and un- necessary Consumption of Material, whilst a hard and smooth, solid and firm Surface is never attained. The new Line from Camberwell Green to Kennington not being exposed to much Thoroughfare, and being in the immediate Neighbourhood from whence the local Gravel is obtained, may continue to be advantageously repaired with that Material. Taking therefore into consideration the Quality and Kind of Materials it would be advantageous and economical to make use of for the Repair of this District, together with the local Situation of the Roads, and the Quantity and Description of Thoroughfare to which they are exposed, I am of opinion that the Sum of 2,143Z. will be required during the ensuing Twelve Months for the Maintenance of this Division, exclusive of watering and the Salaries of Officers. Stones-end District. No Part of the Surrey and Sussex Roads have to sustain so great and heavy a Thorough- fare as a Portion of the Stones-end District, which extends from the End of the Pavement in Blackman Street to the Bedford Arms Inn, Clapham Rise, to which has lately been added the Road leading to the Iron Bridge from Newington Causeway to the South Extremity of the Liberty of the Clink. From the Stones-end to Kennington Turnpike Kentish Flint and River Gravel are made use of. The Quality of the Kentish Flint used for recently coating this Portion of Road is of the very worst Description, and ought not to have been received by the Surveyor. A small Portion of Down Flints are delivered near Kennington New Church, and BEFORE COMMITTEE Ol4 TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 221 ■and used in that Neighbourhood; from thence to the Bedford Arms, Clapham Rise, Appendix No 5 the Road is maintained with Thames Gravel. ^ppenuix, j\o. j. The great Wear upon the upper End of this Division creates a constant Necessity Report on the tor continually renewed Coats of the Materials at present made use of; the Public Surrey and Sussex being subject to the great Annoyance and Inconvenience of these repeated Repairs, Turnpike Trust. whilst a hard, solid, firm Surface is never obtained, there being during the whole Winter continual Necessity for scraping, and in the Summer great Inconvenience from Clouds of Dust. I am not aware of any Situation where a hard and more durable Material could with so much Advantage and Economy be introduced; and I would most strongly recommend that the Road from the Stones-end to the Kennington Gate should progressively be formed and repaired with hard Stone. The Cost of such Materials may in the first instance be considerable, but from its Durability, the great Saving of Labour, and the Quality of the' Road, the Convenience and Comfort to the Public will be materially increased. I am induced to doubt the Propriety as well as Economy of transporting Gravel from out of the Thames, landed at Vauxhall at 2s. 3d. per Yard, exclusive of Wharfage, landing, filling, and carting the same upon the Road upwards of a Mile in Distance, when a superior Material may be obtained out of local Pits in Larkhall Lane, &c. at much less Cost, for the Repair of the remaining Portion of this District, from Kennington Gate to the Bedford Arms. The whole of this Line of Road in the moist and wet Weather in Winter is in a soft, j heavy, and inconvenient State for Carriages to travel on. The Materials made use of, being unequal to sustain the Thoroughfare, quickly grind into Sand, and in certain States of Weather, particularly after trifling Frosts, licks up and causes a heavy Draught. The Form of this Road is in general good, and the Drainage has been better attended to than upon most of the other Districts, but more Openings are required for the Discharge of the Surface Water between Kennington and the Bedford Arms. For the Reasons before mentioned, and under the same Considerations, I am of opinion that the Sum of 2,500/. will be required for the Maintenance of this Distridt during the ensuing Twelve Months, exclusive of watering and the Salaries of Officers. Sutton District. The first Portion of the Sutton District, from the Bedford Arms to the Foot of Balham Hill, is repaired with Gravel procured from Clapham Common ; from Balham Hill to near Tooting, Gravel is obtained from Pits near Balham Chapel. From Tooting to Pig's Marsh, Gravel is brought for Repair of the Road from Tooting Common ; from thence to the Eleventh Mile Stone, Mitcham Common, Gravel is made use of. The last Mile to the Twelfth Mile Stone is repaired with Down Flints. I consider this Arrangement for a Supply of Materials the most advantageous for this Division of Road, many Parts of which, such as Balliam Hill, Upper Tooting, Mitcham, &c. required to be better formed, and the Cross Roads amended. The Surface Water at • present, from the Lowness of the Centre, not being properly discharged, the Water Channels in many Parts require to be cleaned out and deepened, particularly through Mitcham, where the Road in many Parts slopes entirely from one Side to the other. The whole Road along Pigs Marsh is low, flat, and much exhausted, and requires an immediate Coat of Materials. The Materials for the Repair of this Division were stated to be purchased and received by the Cart Load, each containing Two Cubic Yards ; one Cart, found delivering Materials from Mitcham Common, on the Side of the Road at Pigs Marsh, only contained a Yard and a Quarter. More Care and Attention is required in sifting and cleaning the Materials, previous to t-heir being brought to the Road; for notwithstanding that the large Portion of Hoggin, Sand, and Dirt which are separated from the Materials after they are brought to the Side of the Road is used for the Repair of the Footpaths, they are by this Means maintained with a Material as costly as that used for the Road itself. The Rake might with great Advantage be much more made use of upon the whole of this Line of Road. . , . t c For the Reasons before mentioned, and under the 'same Considerations, 1 am of opinion that the Sum of 1,5131. will be required for the Maintenance of this District during the ensuing Twelve Months, exclusive of watering and Salaries of Officers. Brixton District. This Division is principally repaired with Gravel obtained out of the Thames, from local Pits at Slreatham and Tooting Common, and a Portion is brought from Pits in the Neigh- bourhood of Croydon, and a few Down and Chalk Pit Flints. 1 he first Portion of this Road from Hazard's Bridge, is low, flat, and confined with Buildings ; the Road heavy, soft, and spungy, and much more inconvenient for Horses to draw Carnages over than the Appearance of the Road would lead the Traveller to suppose. At the new Watch-house the Road entirely slopes to one Side, by which the Weight of Carriages is thrown upon one Wheel and tha't additional Weight on the Side of the Road, which, by this improper (24.) Ee3 Form, 222 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Appendix, No.ri. Form, is kept wet, soft, and dirty. Up Brixton Hill the Road is very much dished in'th^ Centre, the Sides being many Inches higher than the Middle ; during heavy Rains the Report on the Water runs a considerable Stream down the Centre of the Road, which has become the Surrey and Sussex pj-Jncipal Watercourse from Brixton Hill to Streatham ; the Road in many Parts is too J urnpike '1 rust. j^^ j^^ ^^^ Centre, and through Streatham the whole Road is formed with an improper and most inconvenient Slope to the East Side, and there being no Watercourse whatever on the West Side, the Water flows all over the Surface of the Road. From thence to Hermitage Bridge the Road is in better Form, but the Footpaths in many Parts are too high, and create a great Soakage into the Road; the small Cuts in many Places outside of these Foot- paths, doubtless intended to show where Ditches ought to be made, are in many instances Eighteen Inches above the Surface of the Road they are intended to drain. A great Waste of Materials takes place from this Want of proper Drainage, and from the Road not being properly prepared to receive the Coats of new Material, which are applied too thick, and a great Portion of which is ground into Sand before the Remainder is united with the hard Road. For the Reasons before mentioned, and under the same Considerations, I am of opinion that the Sum of 1,600/. will be required for the Maintenance of this District during the ensuing Twelve Months, exclusive of watering and the Salaries of OflBcers. Croydon District. From Hermitage Bridge to Croydon the Road is in better Form, the Sides well defined, and Water Channels cleaned out; but the Drainage requires great Improvement: in many Parts there are no Ditches made, and in others the Ditches are higher than the Road. Were a proper and efficient Drainage given to the Sub-soil on which this Road rests, and sufficient Openings made for the immediate Discharge of the Surface Water, a great Saving in the Quantity of Materials required might be effected, especially were the proper and constant Use made of the valuable Road Tool the Rake, which upon these Roads appears to be wholly neglected. Down Flints and Gravel, and Flints obtained from Pits at Broad Green, Thornton Heath, and Dupper's Hill, are used for the Repair of this Division. The great Thoroughfare in and through the Town of Croydon renders it desirable that the very best Materials, properly prepai-ed and applied, should be used in that Part; and it would be very desirable were the Stone Curb by the Side of the Footpath continued all through the Town ; and the Drainage of this Portion of the Road requires very particular Attention, as well as the immediate Removal of the Road Scrapings ; the Drains from the Houses at Magna Charta Row, on this Division, have been suffered to discharge themselves into the Road, and forms a most offensive Object. For the Reasons before mentioned, and under the same Considerations, I am of opinioa that the Sum of 830/. will be required for the Maintenance of this District during the ensuing Twelve Months, exclusive of watering and the Salaries of Officers. GoDSTONE District. The first Portion of the Road from Croydon towards Godstone is abundantly supplied with Materials from the waste Ground by the Sides of the Road ; but their great Abundance has been productive of a very improvident Use of them : they are laid on in great Quantities, very dirty, quite rough and unbroken, and the Road unprepared to receive them. The general Surface of the whole Road to Godstone is rough, uneven, and inconvenient for the Wheels of Carriages to pass over, owing to the large Size of the Materials of which the Road is composed. The greater Part of this District requires to be lifted, the Materials prepared and broken, the Road and Cross Sections properly formed and made, and the Materials, when again laid on, ought to be constantly raked and attended to, until the whole Surface becomes hard, smooth, and solid. The very hard Quality of the excellent Material obtained for the Repair of the greater Psrtof this Division (Down Flints) renders it doubly desirable and necessary that the greatest Care and Attention be given to their proper Preparation and Application, by which a great Reduction in Quantity may be effected. There is about One Mile of new Road on this District which will require to be strengthened during the ensuing Winter. For the Reasons before mentioned, and under the same Considerations, I am of opinion that the Sum of 830/. will be required for the Maintenance of this District during the ensuing Twelve Months, exclusive of watering and Salaries of Officers. East Grinstead District. About One Mile on the North Side of Godstone the Road assumes an entire new Character, being entirely formed and maintained with Stone obtained at Tilburster Hill, and carried from thence to Witch Cross, the Extremity of the Trust, being no less Distance than Fifteen Miles; the Expence of these Materials is. One Shilling digging, Sixpence Landlord's Compensation, Sixpence breaking, average Cartage Eight Miles, average Cost Seven Shillings per Yard. The great Cost of this Material has induced the Surveyor of this District, from a mistaken Opinion of Economy, to form and coat this Road most objection- ably, and in many Parts, most dangerously narrow, to raise the Centre, whilst the Sides are not only suddenly low, but being deprived of Materials, the Wheels of Carriages that are 8 obliged BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 223 obliged to draw to One Side on passing laden Waggons frequently sink into the Sub-soil, Appendix, No. .-,. and are liable to serious Accidents. Upon a Road so formed and shaped^ the only Part upon — '— which a Carriage can stand upright is the Centre, and all TJioroughfare invariably runs there Report on the w^hen undisturbed. Were the Road stoned wider, and the Surface level, Carriages would not Surrey and Sussex run in One Part only, and the Wear of the Materials would be more equal. The whole of Turnpike Trust. the Sides of the Road in this Division are in a most neglected Condition, and require to be ' defined, and proper Water Channels formed. On the Hills, the Breadth of the Road exceeds by Threefold that of the rest of the Division, Carriages and Waggons having been allowed to draw to the Sides in order to relieve the Descent, and Ruts so occasioned have been filled in from Time to Time with Materials. The Breadth of the Road requires at these Places to be properly limited, and that Width made firm and ,good. The new formed Road through the late Improvement requires great Care and Attention ; the Materials have been laid on in too great Quantities at a "Time, and allowed to assume the Form of Road that Accident and the Thoroughfare ^ave them, in many Parts ; the Middle is below the Sides, which are swelled up, the Water having got into the Clay Sub-soil. These new Roads require the constant Use of the Rake, to keep the Materials in their Place, and preserve the proper Form of the Road, which ought to be strengthened by repeated thin Coats of properly prepared Materials ; the Drainage of these new Roads also requires Attention, being at present very defective. The Forest Stone, which may be obtained very near the. Extremity of the Trust, at Witch Cross, at an Expence not exceeding 2s. 6c?. per Yard, might with great Advantage and Economy be used in the Repair of the Portion of this Division from Witch Cross to several Miles North of Forest Row, which, being over a soft sandy Soil, open, airy, well exposed to Sun and Wind, with sufiicient Falls to enable the Water to be immediately discharged, miwht be kept in the best possible Condition with this Material ; and this Arrangement would m9,terially reduce the average Cost of the Tilburster Stone, and also be attended with great Saving to the Surface of the Road in Cartage. The new Roads on this District will require to be strengthened ; and much Care, Skill, and Attention in the judicious Application of the Materials, which appear to be throughout in a very foul and dirty State. For the Reasons before mentioned, and under the same Considerations, I am of opinion that the Sum of 1,300/. will be required for the Maintenance of this District during the ensuing Twelve Months, exclusive of watering and Salaries of Officers. South Lambeth. The Materials used for the Repair of the South Lambeth Road, from Vauxhall Turnpike to the new Watch-house on the Brixton Line, is Gravel obtained from a Pit in Lark Hall Lane, where it is dug and sifted in a very proper Manner, and at a fair and reasonable Price. This Road is not exposed to much Thoroughfare, and is in very good Condition; the Cross Sections have been attended to, and the Water Channels have been trimmed and cleaned out. More Openings are required through the Footpaths, for the Discharge of the Surface Water ; and the larger Parts of the Gravel require to be better broken, and the new Materials, when laid on, ought to be raked and constantly attended to until consolidated with the Road. , /-, -J ■ T c ■ • For the Reason before mentioned, and under the same Considerations, 1 am ot opinion that the Sum of 280/. will be required for the Maintenance of this District during the ensuing Twelve Months, exclusive of watering and Salaries of Officers. Vauxhall District. This District, extending from the Plough and Harrow at Newington to the Falcon at Battersea Rise, with a Brinch Road through Kennington Oval to the new Church, possesses considerable Advantages for the Receipt of Materials by approaching the Thames a Vauxhall; it is maintained with the River Gravel from the Plough and Harrow to Vauxhall Turnpike, and through the Oval. ,t,t , ,u n ^r. From Vauxhall to the Falcon, Gravel- is procured from Wandsworth Common The extreme narrow and confined Situation of Kennington Lane, with much Thorough- fare, rendSTt desirable that a better and stronger Material should be made use of than Thames Gravel for its Repair. The Expence of landing, loading. Cartage, spreading raw! &ris the same; the Difference only consists in a small Addition m the prime Cost beSn Kentish Flints or River Gravel at a Wharf at Vauxhall, and the superior Quahty of Ae Flh^ts for a Road of this Description will fully justify the Difference of Costs ; where 1 BreadtL of the Road from Kennington Cross to V|^-hall . much inc^^^ a Portion of River Gravel may be used with much Advantage and Economy to the bides. ThI Quahty ^f the Gravel from Wandsworth Common is particularly good ; and this Material If properly prepared and skilfully applied, would make and rpamtain an excellent Road from ^^auxhaVto the Falcon. The Drainage of this D^trict requires Attention. ?hemches ought to be deepened, and more Openings made for the Discharge of the ^"For'AySeions before mentioned, and under the same Considerations, I am of opinion tha! tU Sum of 958/. will be required for the Main« f ^^^^ during the ensu- ing Twelve Months, exclusive of watermg and the Salary of Officers. Kingston (24.) ' ^^ * 224 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Appendix, No. 5. t^ i-v ^' Kingston Division. SurCand Sussex The Kingston Division commencing at the Falcon at Battersea Rise, and terminating at Turnpike Trust. the King's Arms in the Town of Kingston, is repaired with Gravel obtained from Wands- worth and Wimbledon Common, and also procured from Earl Spencer's Ground at the Top of Kingston Hill ; the new Lines of Road made on this Division by the Improvement of Wandsworth, Loveland, Robinhood, and Kingston Hills, have required much Labour, and still require to be considerably strengthened during the ensuing Winter. The Road from the Falcon to Wandsworth is low in the Middle, and requires coating with Materials. Through Wandsworth the Road has lately been coated over Wimbledon Common ; the Road is in tolerable Condition from Robinhood Hill to Kingston Hill ; the Cross Sections require to be amended, and the Sides lowered. The Portion of the Road in the Town of Kingston, which is extremely narrow, exposed to great Thoroughfare, excluded from the Sun and Wind by Rows of Buildings, will require a substantial Coat of Materials during the present Season. The Accounts for Cartage, Materials, Tradesmen's Work, or other Matters, not having been paid on this Division for upwards of Twelve Months past, prevents the Surveyor from being enabled to have these important and necessary Operations proceeded with, the Parties refusing to execute further Work until present Demands are liquidated. In consequence of the Facility afforded by Water Carriage to this Division, a small Quantity of Kentish Flint has been purchased for the Purpose of coating the Road upon the Hills, where it is desirable that the best Material that can be obtained should be used._ For the Reasons before mentioned, and under the same Considerations, I 'am of opinion that the Sum of ] ,235/. will be required for the Maintenance of this District during the ensuing Twelve Months, exclusive of watering and the Salaries of Officers. The Footpaths on the several Lines may with Advantage continue to be repaired with Road Sand, and in those Pg,rts where much Thoroughfare makes a stronger .Material necessary, the Sittings out of the River Gravel, or the Sittings of the Gravel in the Pits, may with Advantage be applied. The whole Sum therefore for the Repair and Maintenance of the several Districts during the ensuing Twelve Months, exclusive of watering and the Salary of Officers, will be viz, — Camberwell District - - - 2,143 Stones-end District _ - - - 2,500 Sutton - 1,513 Brixton - - . - - 1,600 Croydon . . - - 830 Godstone , - r - - 830 East Grinstead . . - . - 1,300 South Lambeth - - - - 260 Vauxhall .---.. 958 Kingston - - ~ - 1,235 ^13,2^9 A judicious, skilful, and economical Expenditure of this Amount, upon the several Districts of the Surrey and Sussex Roads, would fully warrant and justify the Anticipation of a con- siderable Saving in the Amount of the Estimate for a future Year. I now beg most respectfully to state generally, that I consider the Materials are not sufficiently cleansed, sorted, and prepared previously to being laid upon the Road, and that the Surface of the Road is not sufficiently scraped and properly prepared to receive the additional Coats of additional Materials ; that owing to the Materials being applied in too great Quantities at one Time, a large Portion is ground into Dust befoi;e the Remainder is consolidated with the hard Road, and this Quantity of pulverized Material keeps the Road during the Winter Season in a heavy, foul, and dirty State. That the Rake is not sufficiently used upon the Coats of newly applied Materials, in order to prevent Ruts, and preserve the proper Form and Section of the Road. That there appears a total Absence of a positive fixed Point of Receipt of Materials, by which Quantity is accurately and positively ascertained, and without which all Rate of Prices become merely nominal ; the Practice of receiving Materials by the Load of Two Cube Yards, in all Sizes and Description of Carts, is niost objectionable and fallacious. That it would be most desirable were the Supply of all Materials for the Repair of the Roads offered to public Competition, and the present Practice discontinued of the several Surveyors purchasing at their own Discretion, in Competition with each other, Materials for their respective Districts. That all Cartage and Tradesmen's Work, such as Bricklayers, Carpenters, Blacksmiths, Wheelwrights, &c. be executed by Contract upon public Tender. That the Funds of the Trust being apportioned to the several Divisions, and the Money so apportioned placed at the Disposal of the Surveyors, is inexpedient and'wasteful, as the same Sum for the same Division may be improper at one Time or proper at another. The same Amount for Labour cannot be required in June, July, and Augus|, that ought to be laid out in December, January, and February; whereas, according to the present Practice, the Sum is always expended. The BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 225 T J'^^ Necessity and Propriety of an Expenditure equal to the Amount of the Estimates Appendix, No. 5, i have the Honour to submit, for the Repair of the several Districts during the ensuing Twelve Months, will depend in a great measure on the State of the Weather : a severe and Report on the wet Period might justify an Outlay to the full Amount; whilst, on the other hand, the Surrey and Sussex Trustees would have a Right to expect, that during a dry and favourable Season a very Turnpike Trust. considerable Saving ought to take place, in the Hands of skilful, zealous, and economical ~ Surveyors. That there is a total Want of efl&cient Con troul over the Expenditure of the Trust Funds, and also of a constant Inspection and Direction over the Operations of the Surveyors in the Repairs of the Roads. Accounts may be examined and found clerically right ; but neither the Expediency of the Outlay, nor the Manner of Execution, nor even the Correctness of Charges, can be properly judged of by Gentlemen occasionally assembled for a few Hours to transact public Business. The Result of my Survey, Observations, and Inquiries is, that there is a Want of that hard, smooth, solid Surface of Road desired by the Public, and advantageous and economical to the Trust. That the Division of the Roads into Ten Parts, under the Management of Nine Surveyors, appears to be more calculated for the Convenience of the Surveyors, by enabling them to carry on other Professions, than for the Profit of the Public, or the due Execution of the Work and Economy of the Finances. Upon these Considerations, therefore, I respectfully recommend to the Trustees of the Surrey and Sussex Roads a Revision of the Districts and Duties of the Surveyors. That every Surveyor employed by the Trust, shall give his whole Time and Attention to the Public, and become bound to have no other Occupation. That the Number of Surveyors should be adequate to the Quantity of Work, and their Salaries equal to their whole Time claimed by the. Trustees. The very important and interesting Subject of watering these Roads will necessarily require the early and serious Attention of the Trustees, in order that proper, efficient, and economical Arrangements, on one uniform and general System, may be adopted, to enable this Service, in which the Public are so much inte.rested, to be executed in the best possible Manner, and with the least Injury to the Roads. Watering a Flint or Gravel Road, when properly executed, is of much Benefit, by keep- ing the Surface always fixed, firm, and solid ; but ■ this can only be accomplished by an equal Distribution of Water, repeated as Occasion requires. The usual Practice resorted to by Contractors for this Work, of deluging the Road with a great Body of Water, so as to prevent the Necessity of an early Repetition, is attended with the most ruinous Conse- quences to the Road, and Destruction to the Materials. It has been found expedient, upon other Trusts of great Extent, to contract by public Tender for the Supply and upholding, the requisite Number of Water Carts, constructed in a proper Manner, with Distributors made to spread the Water in a judicious and careful Manner ; and also to contract for Horses and Men, to perform the Work of watering, under the Directions of the Surveyors. It has also been found expedient, on other Districts, to contract for the Erection and upholding in proper working Repair of the Pumps, &c. I have to intreat the Indulgence of the Trustees of the Surrey and Sussex Roads, for laying before them so imperfect a Report, assuring them that it proceeds from no Want of Zeal and Attention in the anxious Discharge of the important Duty they were pleased to intrust me with. I have the Honour to be. Sir, Your most obedient Servant, Charles Geo. Beet Esq. J^^^s M^ Adam. Clerk to the Trustees. (24.) p £ Fittings 226 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Appendix, No. 5. Fittings of the several Districts of the Surrey and Sussex Roads. Report on the Surrey and Sussex Turnpike Trust. Centre Sides Fittings. District and Places. of Road. of Road. Materials. Camberwell District. Inches. Inches. 1 Near Elephant and Castle 9 101 10/ Granite, Flints, 2 — of a Mile from thence 9 and Gravel. 3 Near Manor Row - . _ 7 9 Gravel and Flints. 4 East Lane - ~ - . _ 9 10 Granite and Flints. 5 Camberwell - _ 8 10 Flints and Gravel. 6 Peckham Road 7 9 Ditto. 7 New Road - - _ 5 4 Gravel. 8 Top of New Road Brixton District. 7 6 Ditto. 1 Near the Bridge - _ _ 10 lo-t Granite & Gravel. 2 2d Mile Stone - - - 9 10 Gravel. 3 2\ Ditto H 6 Ditto. 4 3 Ditto - - . . 8t 8i- Ditto. 5 3\ Ditto 6i 7 Ditto. 6 4 Ditto - - _ _ 9 10 Ditto. 7 4^ Ditto 8 9 Ditto. 8 5 Ditto - . _ _ 7 '^'i Ditto. 9 5^ Ditto - . - 8 8 Ditto. 10 6 Ditto - - - - 8 7| Ditto. 11 G\ Ditto - . _ Croydon District. 8i 8^ Ditto. 1 Near the 7th Mile Stone 8 H Flints and Gravel. 2 7i Ditto 9 9 Ditto. 3 8 Casde Inn 7 J 8 Ditto. 4> Q\ Mile Stone 8^ 9 Ditto. 5 9 Croydon 9 9 Ditto. 6 Toll Gate Godstone District. 8 J 9 Ditto. 1 Swan and Sugar Loaf 12 12 Gravel. 2 Near the 12th Mile Stone 12 12 Ditto. 3 12i Ditto 12 12 Ditto. 4 13 Ditto 12 12 Ditto. 5 13i Ditto 6 5 Ditto. 6 14 Ditto 9 8 Flints from Fields. 7 14i Ditto 4 4 Ditto. 8 15 Ditto 4 6 Ditto. 9 15| Ditto 8 6 Ditto. 10 16 Ditto 18 7 Ditto. 11 16^ Ditto 12 15 Ditto. 12 17 Ditto 18 7 Ditto. 13 17^ Ditto 4 7 Ditto. 14 18 Ditto 24 6 Ditto. 15 18^ Ditto 12 8 Ditto. 16 19 Ditto 7 3 Ditto. 17 191 Ditto 8 5 Ditto. 18 20 Ditto 5 4 Ditto. 19 GoSne. }^^i ^^«°' ^^^ ^"^^ begins East Grinstead District. 6 4 Ditto. 1 Near the 21st Mile Stone - - . 7 7 Ditto. 2 211 Ditto 6 6 Ditto. 3 22 Ditto 5 5 Ditto. 4 22i Ditto 5 7 Ditto. 5 23 Ditto 5 5 Ditto. 6 23i Ditto 4 7 Ditto. 7 24 Ditto, Old Road 11 6 Ditto. 8 24i Ditto 12 6 Ditto. 9 25 Ditto 12 6 Ditto. 1 BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 227 Fittings of the several Districts of the Surrey and Sussex Roads — {continued). Fittings. District and Places. 10 Near the 25 ^ Mi|e Stone 11 26 Ditto 12 2G\ Ditto 13 27 Ditto 14 27 i Ditto 15 28 Ditto 16 281 X)itto 17 . 29 Ditto 18 29 i Ditto 19 30 Ditto 20 30i Ditto 21 31 Ditto 22 31i Ditto 23 32 Ditto 24 32i Ditto - 25 33 Ditto 26 334. Ditto - 27 34 Ditto 28 34^ Ditto 29 35 Ditto South Lambeth District. r Near Brixton Watch-house 2 \ Mile nearer Town 3 1 Mile 4 Near Miles's Chapel 5 Turnpike 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Centre of Road. Sides of Road. Inches. 12 9 9 12 5 9 9 5 6 7 4 4 5 5 4 6 4 3 5 5 7 7 6-1 8 7 FauxhaU District. At the Top of Falcon Hill At 3d Mile Stone from Westminster Bridge Near Vauxhall Gate - - - West End Kennington Lane End of Kennington Lane next London Kennington Oval, near Turnpike Near the School - - - - Clayton Street _ - - - Near No. 22. - Kingston District. Near Noibiton - - Bottom of Kingston Hill . - - Near 11th Mile Stone - - At the Top of Robinhood Hill Between Loveland Hill and Bald-faced Stag Centre of Loveland Hill - - - Filbert's Lodge - - - - West Hill, Wandsworth Centre of Wandsworth Town Top of Hill, London End of Wandsworth - Falcon Hill - - " " Sutton District. Near 4th Mile Stone George Balham Hill 5th Mile Stone . - - Balham Chapel 6th Mile Stone Wheatsheaf, Upper Tooting 7th Mile Stone Red House 8th Mile Stone, Pigs Marsh - Further End At Upper Mitcham Inches. 5 6 7 6 6 5 6 6 4 5 5 4 5 5 5 4 3 3 5 5 6 Si H H 8 7 64- 64r 12 7 5 3 4i fix 4 5 7 4|- 5 5f 8 5 6 6-t 6 6 4 6 6 Materials. Flints from Fields. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. 7-1- Gravel. 7^ Ditto. 7 Ditto. 9 Ditto. 74. Ditto. 5 Ditto. 5.1- Ditto. 51 Ditto. 5 Ditto. 6^ Ditto. 8 Ditto. 7i Ditto. 6i Ditto. 6i Ditto. 12 7 5 34 5 5 7i 4|. 6 6 7 H 61 6 7 6i 5 7 6 Appendix, No. 5. Report oil the Surrey and Sussex Turnpike Trust. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. -Gravel and Flints. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. (24.) G 228 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Appendix, No. 5. Report on the Surre)' andSussex Turnpike Trust. Fittings of the several Districts of the Surrey and Sussex Roads — (continued). Centre Sides Fittings. District and Places. of Koad. of Road. MateriaJs. Inches. Inclies. 12 Near 10th Mile Stone - - - 5 5* Gravel and Flints. 13 Sutton Hill 5 5* Ditto. 14 1st Mile Stone 5 H Ditto. 15 Sutton Town _ . - Stones-end Division. 5 5i Ditto. 1 Road leading to Iron Bridge-end, near"! Stones-end - - - "J 11 10 Ditto. 2 J of a Mile towards Bridge _ - - 10 10 Granite and Flints. 3 At Stones, end . . . - 4 8 Ditto. 4 Near Newington Turnpike 4 8 Gravel. 5 Newington Church . . - T 6 Ditto. 6 Between ditto and Horns 10 11 Ditto. 7 Kennington Church _ _ . 6 H Ditto. 8 Near 3d Mile Stone - - - 6+ 7 Ditto. 9 Bedford Arms . . _ 5 6 Ditto. An Account of Materials on Hand, on each of the Districts of the Surrey and Sussex Roads, the 29th September 1828 : — ^viz. Granite. Flint. Gravel. Camberwell District _ _ . Yards. 250 Yards. Yards. Stones-end Ditto - - - — 100 — Sutton Ditto - ■ - - — — 200 Brixton Ditto - - - — 156 40 Croydon Ditto - - - - — 299 — Grodstone Ditto - - - - — 500 <■ East Grinstead Ditto — — — Soutli Lambeth Ditto _ . . — — — Vauxhall Ditto - - - ~ - — — 200 Kingston Ditto - - - - — — 110 BEFORE COMMITTEE ON TURNPIKE ROAD TRUSTS. 229 Appendix, No. 6*. STATEMENT of Income and Expenditure of the Crud well and Minty District of Roads. The Clerk of the Peace of the County of Gloucester has the Honour of transmitting herewith to his Grace the Duke of Richmond, as Chairman of the Select Committee of the House of Lords appointed to consider the State of Turnpike Trusts, a Copy of the Statement of Income and Expenditure of the Crudwell and Minty District of Roads, which has within a few Days been filed by Mr. Bevir, the Clerk to the Commissioners. Dursley^ 6th August 1833. CRUDWELL AND MINTY DISTRICT OF ROADS. General Statement of the Income and Expenditure of the Branch of Road leading from the Malmesbury and Cirencester Turnpike Road near Crudwell Church to the Turnpike Road leading from Cricklade to Malmesbury at or near Minty Common, between the 28th Day of October 1831 and the 28th Day of October 1832. EXPENDITURE. To Surveyor's Account of Day Labour and ") for Repairs of Roads - - - J — Surveyor's Account for Team Labour — Paid on account of Interest of Debt — Incidental Charges . - . £ s. d. 26 11 11 10 5 1) 43 2 Hi 1 n 9i INCOME. By Amount received from Lessees of Tolls Amount of Composition in lieu of Statute Duty received from East court Ty thing ■} — Amount in Hand of Surveyors, 28th \ October 1831 - - -J £ s. 36 18 d. 43 1 1 1 9i 81 9i ^2 GENERAL STATEMENT OF DEBTS AND CREDITS. Amount of Debt bearing Interest Amount of Interest due £ s. d. 1,200 682 8 7 1,882 8 7 Amount due from the Trustees £ s. d 1,882 8 7 1,882 8 7 Signed on behalf of the Trustees present at a Meeting held this Day, Wm. Chapperlin, Cordwainer* Arms Inn, Ashton Keynes, 1 Chairman. lOth July 1833. J (24.) Gg2