CORNELL 
 
 UNIVERSITY 
 
 LIBRARY 
 
 The Library of 
 EMIL KUICHLING, C. E. 
 
 The Gift of 
 
 Sarah L. Kuichling 
 
 1919 
 
 ENGINNERINa 
 
Cornell University Library 
 HE 2791.N56A2 
 
 In the matter of the application of the 
 
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The original of tliis book is in 
 tine Cornell University Library. 
 
 There are no known copyright restrictions in 
 the United States on the use of the text. 
 
 http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924005006840 
 
COURT OF APPEALS. 
 
 In the Matter of the Application of THE NEW YORK, 
 LAKE ERIE AND WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY, for 
 THE Appointment of Commissioners to Examine the Pro- 
 posed Route 
 
 OF 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA AND WESTERN RAIL- 
 WAY COMPANY, in the County of Erie, New York State. 
 
 RETURN ON APPEAL. 
 
 Messrs. SPRAGUE, MILBURN & SPRAGUE, 
 
 Attorneys for the Petitioner and Appellant, The New York, Lake Erie and 
 Western Railroad Co. 
 
 Messrs. BOWEN, ROGERS & LOCKE, 
 
 Attorneys for the Respondent, The New York, Lackawanna and Western 
 Railway Co. 
 
 Messrs. GREENE, McMILLAN & GLUCK, 
 
 Attorneys for the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway Co. 
 
 Messrs. MARSHALL, CLINTON & WILSON, 
 
 Attorneys for The New York Life Insurance and Trust Co. 
 
 Hon. NELSON K. HOPKINS, 
 
 Attorney for the J. S. Wadsworth Estate. • ' 
 
 Mr. EDWARD C. HAWKS, Attorney for the City of Buffedn. 
 
 BUFFALO: 
 
 THE COURIER COMPANY, PRINTER,S. 
 
 1882. 
 
Proceeding No. 2. 
 
 SUPREME COURT. 
 
 In the Matter of the Appucation of 
 THE NEW yORK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY, 
 FOB THE Appointment of Commission- 
 ers TO Examine the Phoposed Rootb 
 
 OF 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA AND 
 WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANY, IN 
 the County of Ekib, New York State. 
 
 You will please take notice that the above-named Peti- 
 tioner, the New York, Lake Erie and Western Eailroad 
 Company, hereby appeals to the Supreme Court of the 
 State of New York from the decision of the Commission- 
 ers appointed in this proceeding by the order herein of the 
 Hon. George Barker, one of the justices of said Supreme 
 Court, dated the eighth day of July, 1881, which decision 
 affirms the route originally designated by the New York, 
 Lackawanna and Western Railway Company, in said county 
 of Erie, as shown by the map, survey and profile accom- 
 panying the petition herein, and vra,s filed in the office of 
 the Clerk of the County of Erie, on the fifth of August, 
 1881, and from the whole and every part of said decision. 
 Dated Aug. 10, 1881. 
 
 SPRAGUE, MILBURN & SPRAGUE, 
 Attorneys for the Petitioner and Appellant, 
 The New York, Lake Erie and Western Kailroad Co., 
 No. 377 Main Street, Buffalo, N. Y. 
 
 To RowBN, RooEiis & Locke, Esqs., Attorneys for the New York, 
 LackaVanna and Western Railway Company; and to tlie County 
 Clerk of the County of Erie; Marshall, Clinton & Wilson, 
 Esqs., Attorneys for tlie New York Life Insurance and Trust Co., 
 Trustee; Nelson K. Hopkins, Esq., Attorney for J. S. Wads- 
 wortli'g Estate; QBBpNE, McMillan & Gluck, Esqs., Attorneys 
 for the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway ; E. C. Hawks 
 Esq., Attorney for the City of Buffalo. 
 
SUPREME COURT. . 
 
 In the Matter of the Application 
 OF THE NEW YORK, LAKE BRIE 
 AND WESTERN RAILROAD COM- 
 PANY POK TUB Appointment ov Com- 
 missioners TO Examine tub Proposed 
 Route 
 
 OF 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 PANY, IN the County of Erie, New 
 York State. 
 
 State of New York, | 
 County of Erie, f ' 
 
 John G. Milbiirn, being duly sworn, says that he 
 is one of tJie firm of Sprague, Milburn & Sprague, attor- 
 neys for the above-named petitioner ; that the object of 
 this proceeding is to procure a change in the proposed 
 route of the said The New York, Lackawanna and West- 3 
 ern Railway Company, as located by their map, filed in 
 the office of the Clerk of Erie county, on the nineteenth 
 day of May, 1881, to a route proposed by the said peti- 
 tioner, and in the manner set forth in the petition in this 
 proceeding, a copy of which is hereto annexed ; that it 
 is only within the past three days that the engineers of 
 the petitioner have been able, with the greatest diligence, 
 to locate said proposed change of route so that the 
 names of the owners and occupants of lands to be af- 
 fected thereby could be ascertained. 
 
4 1'hat Louisa Tronp, who resides at 218 Fifth avenue, 
 ill the city of New York, State of New York, is a part 
 owner of certain of tlie real estate affected by said 
 change of route proposed by the petitioner herein ; that, 
 as deponent is informed and believes, said Louisa Troup 
 is over tlie age of eighty years, is confined to her room 
 in her said place of residence, is in ill health and is men- 
 tally incapable of attending to any business, and, as de- 
 ponent is informed and believes, the mental and physical 
 
 5 condition of said Louisa Troup is such that personal ser- 
 vice of tlie petition and notice of presentation thereof in 
 this proceeding cannot be made upon her ; that the in- 
 formation of deponent as to the facts herein stated about 
 said Louisa Troup is derived from John B. Pine and 
 James Stikeman, of the city of New York, who are 
 acquainted with said facts. 
 
 Deponent further says that Sarah H. Babcock is a part 
 owner of one of the parcels of land affected by said 
 change of route proposed by yonr petitioner, and that 
 said Sarah H. Babcock is over the age of twenty-one 
 years, and resides in Oakland, in the State of California. 
 
 Deponent further says that IVederick B. Winthrop, 
 Egcrton L. Winthrop, Jr., and Charlotte T. B. Win- 
 throp are also part owners of a certain piece of land af- 
 fected by said change of route proposed by your peti- 
 tioner ; that each of said last-named persons are infants, 
 „ each of them being over the age of fourteen years, and 
 that said Egerton L. Winthrop, Jr., and Frederick B. 
 Winthrop reside at Eton, England, and that said Char- 
 lotte T. B. Winthrop resides at Paris, France, and that 
 Egerton L. Winthrop is the father and general guardian 
 of said last-named three infants, and that he resides 
 in said city of Paris, France, his post-office address beino- 
 care of Drexel, Hayes & Company, Paris, France. 
 
 Deponent further says that James S. Wadsworth and 
 Craig W. Wadsworth are part owners of one of the par- 
 
Proof of Service.] 3 
 
 eels of land affected by said change of route jjroposed 8 
 by your petitioner ; that each of said last-mentioned in- 
 fants are under the age of fourteen yeai's ; and that they 
 reside with their mother, Evelyn W. Wadsworth, who is 
 their general guardian, at Bath, Berkely Springs, in the 
 State of Virginia, as deponent is informed and believes; 
 that deponent derived his information of said facts as to 
 said James S. and Craig W. Wadsworth from Colonel 
 John R. Strong, attorney for the estate of said James S. 
 Wadsworth, through whom said infants derived their 9 
 interest. 
 
 Deponent further says that Cornelia E. Wilcox is a 
 part owner of one of the parcels of land affected by the 
 said proposed change of route, and that she, the said 
 Cornelia, is an infant under the age of fourteen years, 
 and resides in the city of Buffalo, aforesaid, with Ansley 
 Wilcox, who is her father and general guardian. 
 
 That, as deponent is informed and believes, Jolin 
 
 Conners is a part owner of one of the parcels of land '■^ 
 
 affected by the said proposed change of route, and that 
 
 the said Conners is a lunatic and insane, and is at 
 
 present, and for the last three years has been, confined 
 
 in the asylum for the insane at Buffalo; that the wife of 
 
 said John Conners now resides on the said premises 
 
 owned by Conners affected by said proposed change 
 
 of route ; that deponent's information as to said facts 
 
 herein stated concerning said Conners is derived from 
 
 11 
 the said wife of said Conners. 
 
 Deponent furtlier says that Charles I'lynn is the owner 
 of a parcel of land affected by said proposed (ihange of 
 route, and that said Flynn is now and for a long time 
 past has resided in the city of Chicago, in the State 
 of Illinois, where he is at work, his residence being 
 ; that the wife of said Charles Flynn now re- 
 sides on the premises owned by said Flynn affected by 
 said proposed change of route; that deponent's infer- 
 
4 
 
 12 mation as to said facts herein stated concerning said 
 Flynn is derived from his said wife of said Flynn. 
 
 That since the nineteenth day of May, 1881, when the 
 notice of the filing of the map of the said The New 
 York, Lackawanna and Western Railway Company was 
 served on the petitioner herein, deponent and all the 
 members of said firm have used the greatest diligence in 
 this proceeding to ascertain the names and place of resi- 
 dence of the owners or occupants of the land affected 
 
 13 by the said proposed change of route, and that it is only 
 within the last two days that deponent has been able to 
 ascertain the facts stated in this affidavit as to said sev- 
 eral parties herein set forth. 
 
 Deponent further says that it will be impossible to 
 procure personal service of said papers on said persons 
 on or before the third day of June, 1881 ; that the fif- 
 teen days within which said papers are required by the 
 statute to be served expires on the third day of June 
 ^'^ instant. 
 
 Deponent further says that he desires an order direct- 
 ing that the service required by statute of the petition, 
 map, profile and survey, together with a notice of tlie 
 application for the appointment of commissioners to ex- 
 amine said proposed route, and the route to which the 
 petitioner herein desires to change the same, may be 
 served npon said Louisa Troup and John Connors, and 
 on said non-resident and infant parties Ijy mail, or as the 
 conrt shall direct, and that the time and place for the 
 hearing of said application be fixed as the fifth dav of 
 July, 1881, at the chambers of this court, in the City 
 and County Hall, in the city of Buffalo. 
 
 Deponent further says that he verily believes that the 
 interests of all of said parties will be protected by the 
 making of such an order, for the reason that in each in- 
 stance where such an order would affect the right of 
 parties in any particular piece of land, some party in- 
 
Proof of Service.] 5 
 
 terested therein has been pei'soiially served with the iq 
 exception of said Fiynn's and Conners' said parcel of 
 land. 
 
 That in the Troup estate, The New York Life Insur- 
 ance and Trust Company of New York are the trustees 
 of the estate of Charlotte Brinckerhoflt', deceased, 
 through whom the said three Winthrops hereinbefore 
 above named acquire title, and will be personally served 
 with said petition, map, survey and profile and notice 
 to-day, as deponent verily believes, and will, in all prob- ^"^ 
 ability, take all necessary steps to protect the rights and 
 interests of said infant non-residents. 
 
 That in the estate of James S. Wadsworth, deceased, 
 through whom the Wadsworths heirs hereinabove named 
 acquire title to the premises affected by these proceedings, 
 Mr. Nelson K. Hopkins of this city has been duly au- 
 thorized by said estate to appear herein and protect the 
 rights and interests of said estate. ^o 
 
 That in the estate of George R. Babcock, deceased, 
 through Avhom the said Sarah H. Babcock acquires title, 
 Mr. Dennis E,. Alward, of Auburn, who is trustee to ex- 
 ecute the trusts created by the will of George R. Bab- 
 cock, deceased, and also trustee to execute the trusts 
 created by the will of Mary B. Babcock, deceased, and 
 also Emily B. Babcock, who is the owner of an undi- 
 vided one-half of the premises hereby affected, will be 
 personally served with said petition, map, survey, profile 19 
 and notice to-day, as deponent verily believes, and that 
 the said Alward will, in all probaljility, appear and pro- 
 tect the interests of all parties in the said Babcock 
 estate. 
 
 Deponent further says that his firm, the attorneys for 
 the petitioner herein, reside and have their office in the 
 city of Buffalo aforesaid ; and that no previous applica- 
 
30 tion for an order to be applied for on this affidavit lias 
 been made to any court or jndge. 
 
 JOHN a. MILBURN. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me, ) 
 this tliird day of June, 1«81. f 
 
 W. H. Beadish, 
 Notary Public, Erie county, N. Y. 
 
 A Copy. J. E. EwELL, 
 
 „, Dep. Clerk. 
 
 At a Special Term of the Supreme Court of the State of 
 New York, held in and foi- the cojmty of Erie, at the 
 City and County Hall iii the city of Buffalo, in said 
 county, on the 3d day of June, 1881 : 
 
 Present — Hon. Albert IIaight, Justice. 
 
 In the Matter of tub Application of 
 
 22 THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY 
 
 FOR THE Appointment of Co-mmission- 
 
 ERS to Examine the Proposed Route 
 
 OF 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 PANY, IN THE County of Erie, State 
 OF New York. 
 
 On reading and filing the affidavit of John G. Mil- 
 bnrn, verified on the 3d day of June, 1881, and on 
 motion of John G. Milburn, of counsel for the peti- 
 tioner in this proceeding : 
 
 It is ordered that a copy of the petition of the peti- 
 tioner in this proceeding, verified on the 1st day of June, 
 1881, with a notice of its presentation and the applica- 
 tion for the appointment of commissioners in said peti- 
 tion prayed for, to the Honorable Albert Haight, or any 
 other Justice of the Supreme Court, who may tlien be 
 
Proof of Service.] ? 
 
 present at the chambers of the justices of the said Su- 24 
 preme Court iu the City and Couuty Hall in the city of 
 Buffalo, in the said county of Eric, on the 5th day of 
 July, 1881, at ten o'clock in the forenoon of that day, 
 and a copy of the map, profile, and surveys required by 
 the statute in such case made and provided, referred to 
 in said petition, be served on Louisa Troup, mentioned 
 and described in the affidavit upon which this order is 
 granted, by depositing a copy thereof, to wit, of said no- 
 tice, petition, map, survey and profile, in the post-office 2c 
 at the city of Buffalo aforesaid, on the 3d day of June, 
 1881, properly folded and directed to said Louisa Troup 
 at her residence, number 218 Fifth avenue, in the city 
 of New York, the postage chargeable thereon in the 
 United States to be prepaid. 
 
 It is further ordered that a copy of the said petition, 
 map, surveys, and profile hereinbefore mentioned, and a 
 notice of the presentation of said petition, and the ap- 
 plication for the appointment of commissioners as 
 prayed therein, in all respects similar to the notice here- 
 inbefore directed to be served on said Louisa Troup, be 
 served on Sarah H. Babcock, named in the affidavit on 
 which this order is granted, by depositing a copy thereof 
 on the 3d day of June, 1881, in the said post-office, iu 
 the city of Buffalo aforesaid, properly folded and di- 
 rected to said Sarah H. Babcock, at Oakland, California, 
 the postage chargeable thereon in the United States to 
 be prepaid. 
 
 It is further ordered that a copy of the said petition, 
 map, surveys and profile hereinbefore mentioned, and a 
 notice of the presentation of said petition, and the appli- 
 cation for the appointment of commissioners as prayed 
 therein, in all respects similar to the notices hereinbefore 
 mentioned, be served on Frederick B. Winthrop, Eger- 
 ton L. Winthrop, Jr., and Charlotte T. B. Winthrop, 
 mentioned and descril)cd in the affidavit on which this 
 
28 order is granted, by depositing a copy thereof in the 
 post-ofhce at said city of Buffalo, on the 3d day of June, 
 1881, properly folded and directed to Egerton L. Win- 
 throp, general guardian of Frederick B. Winthrop, Eg- 
 erton L. Winthrop, Jr., and Charlotte T. B. Winthrop, 
 care of Drexel, Hayes & Co., Pai-is, France, the postage 
 chargeable thereon in the United States to be prepaid. 
 
 It is further ordered that a copy of the said petition, 
 map, surveys and profile hereinbefore mentioned, and a 
 
 29 notice of the presentation of said petition and the appli- 
 cation for the appointment of commissioners as prayed 
 therein in all respects similar to the notices hereinbefore 
 mentioned, be served on Craig W. Wadsworth and 
 James S. Wadsworth, mentioned and described in the 
 affidavit on which this order is granted, by depositing a 
 copy thereof on the 3d day of June, 1881, in the post- 
 office at said city of Buffalo, properly folded and directed 
 to Evelyn W. Wadsworth, guardian of Craig W. Wads- 
 
 '^" worth and James S. Wadsworth, Bath, Berkely Springs, 
 Virginia, the postage chargeable thereon in the United 
 States to be prepaid. 
 
 It is further ordered that a copy of said petition, map, 
 surveys and profile hereinbefore mentioned, and a notice 
 of the presentation of said petition and the application 
 for the appointment of coramissionors as prayed therein 
 in all respects similar to the notices hereinbefore men- 
 tioned, be served on John Conners, mentioned and de- 
 scribed in the affidavit upon which this' order is granted, 
 
 by delivering a copy thereof personally to Conners, 
 
 wife of said John Conners, at said city of BuflTalo, on the 
 3d day of June, 1881, and leaving the same with her. 
 
 It is further ordered and directed that a copy of said 
 petition, map, surveys and profile hereinbefore men- 
 tioned, and a notice of the presentation of said petition 
 and the application for the appointment of commission- 
 ers as prayed therein, in all respects similar to tbe no- 
 
Proof of Service.] 9 
 
 tices hereinbefore described and mentioned, be served 33 
 on Charles Flynn, mentioned and described in the aflSda- 
 vit on which this order is granted, by depositing on the 
 3d day of Jime, 1881, a copy thereof and said notice in 
 the postoffice at tlie said city of Bufl'alo, properly folded' 
 and directed to said Charles Flynn, at Chicago, in the 
 State of Illinois, the postage chargeable thereon in the 
 United States to be prepaid, and that in addition thereto 
 a copy thereof and said notice be personally delivered to 
 
 • Flynn, the wife of said Charles Flynn, at said city 33 
 
 of Buffalo, on said 3d day of June, 1881, and be left with 
 her. 
 
 It is further ordered and directed that a copy of said 
 petition, map, surve3'S and profile, and a notice of the 
 presentation of said petition and the application for the 
 appointment of commissioners as prayed therein in all 
 respects similar to the notice hereinbefore described and 
 mentioned, excepting that the same be made returnable 
 before the honorable Albert Haiglit, or any one of the ^* 
 justices of the Supreme Court who shall then be pres- 
 ent at the chambers of the justi(;es of the Supreme 
 Court at the City and County Hall, at the city of Buf- 
 falo, on the 1.3th day of June, 1881, be served on Cor- 
 nelia R. Wilcox, mentioned and described in the affidavit 
 on which this order is granted, by delivering on the 3d 
 day of June, 1881, a copy of the same and said notice to 
 Ansley Wilcox, her general guardian, at the city of Buf- 
 falo, and leaving the same with him. 
 
 It is further ordered that it be indorsed on each of the 
 petitions to be served as directed in this order, that the 
 same is served in pursuance of an order of the Supreme 
 C(>urt of the State of New York, made in the above- 
 entitled proceeding on the 3d day of June, 1881. 
 
 It is further ordered that service upon the parties 
 herein mentioned as herein directed shall be deemed 
 sufficient service of the petition, map, profile and survey. 
 
10 
 
 36 and said notice of presentation tliereof, and shall be 
 deemed a fnll compliance with the statute in snch case 
 made and provided. 
 
 SUPREME COURT. 
 
 In the Matter of the Application or 
 37 THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY, 
 roll THE Appointment of Commission- 
 bus to Examine the Ppoposed Route 
 
 OF 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA AND 
 WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANY, in 
 THE County of Euie, State of New 
 
 YOUK. 
 
 Please take notice, tiiat we have been retained by, and 
 
 no 
 
 hereby appear for. The Lake Shore and Michigan Sonth- 
 ern Railway Company, in the above-entitled matter, and 
 demand that copies of all papers therein be served upon 
 ns at onr office, in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie, 
 N. Y. 
 
 Dated, June 13, 1881. 
 
 Yours, etc., 
 
 39 GREENE, McMILLAN & GLUCK, 
 
 Attorneys for The Lake Shore & Michigan Ry. Co., 
 No. 24 West Seneca St., Buffalo, N. Y. 
 
 To Sprague, Milbuen & Spkague, 
 
 Attorneys for the Petitioner. 
 
App'nces and Adrn's. ] 11 
 
 SUPREME COURT. 40 
 
 In the Matter op tke Aitmcation of 
 THE N. Y., L. E. & W. R. R. CO., for 
 the Appointment of Commissioners 
 TO Examine the Proposed Route 
 
 of 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 PANY, in THE County of Erie, State 
 of New York. 
 
 41 
 
 You will please take notice that I have been retained 
 b}' and hereby appear for the James S. Wadsworth estate 
 in the above-entitled proceeding, and all papers therein 
 may be served upon me at my office in the city of Buf- 
 falo, N. Y. 
 
 Dated June 6, 1881. 
 
 N. K. HOPKINS, 
 
 Attorney for J. S. Wadsworth Estate. 42 
 
 State of New York, ) 
 County of Erie, j ' 
 
 John G. Milbnrn, being duly sworn, says that he 
 resides in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie and State 
 of New York, and is over the age of twenty-one years ; 
 that on the 3d day of June, 1881, at No. 377 Main street, '^'^ 
 in said city of Buffalo, he served the annexed notice, 
 petition, map, profiles and surveys, on Cornelia R. Wil- 
 cox, by delivering a copy of said notice, petition, maps, 
 profiles and surveys to Ansley Wilcox, the general 
 guardian of said Cornelia R. Wilcox personally, and 
 leaving the same with him. 
 
 That, it was indorsed on the copy of said notice, peti- 
 tion, map, surveys and profiles so delivered to and left 
 
12 
 
 44 with said Ansley Wilcox as such general guardian, that 
 the same were served in pursuance of an order of tlie 
 Supreme Court of the State of New York, made in the 
 within entitled proceeding on the 3d day of June, 1881. 
 
 Deponent further says that he knew the said Ansley 
 Wilcox to be the general guardian of said Cornelia R. 
 Wilcox, who is an infant under the age of fourteen years, 
 and one of the owners of the piece or parcel of land des- 
 ignated on the map annexed to said petition as owned 
 
 45 by the Mary Rumsey estate. 
 
 JOHN G. MILBURN. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before 1 
 me, this 13th day of June, 1881. \ 
 
 W. H. Bradish, 
 Notary Public, Erie county, N. Y. 
 
 . „ State of N ew York, ) 
 *" County of Erie, ) ^^• 
 
 John G. Milburn, being duly sworn, says that he re- 
 sides in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie and State of 
 New York, and is over the age of eighteen years; that 
 on the 3d day of June, 1881, at the office of the mayor, 
 in the City and County Hall in the city of Buffalo, in 
 the county of Erie and State of New York, he served 
 the annexed notice, petition, map, surveys and profiles 
 47 on the city of Buffalo, by delivering a copy of said notice, 
 petition, map, profiles and surveys to Alexander Bi'usli, 
 the mayoi' of said cit}', personallj^, and leaving the same 
 with him. 
 
 Deponent further says that he knew the said city of 
 Buffalo so served to be one of tiie parties mentioned in 
 said petition as owners of laiids to be affected by the 
 proposed change of the route of the New York Lacka- 
 wanna and Western Railway Company refen-ed to in 
 said petition, and that he knew the said Alexander Brush 
 
P.oot of Service.] 13 
 
 to be the mayor of said city of Bn£falo, at the aforesaid 43 
 date of service. JOHN G. MILBURN. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me, ) 
 this 13th day of June, 1881. f 
 
 W. H. Beadish, 
 
 Notary Public in and for Erie county. 
 
 State of New York, 
 County of Erie, j ®^" 
 
 James Sutton, being duly sworn, says that he resides 49 
 in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie and State of New 
 York, and is over the age of eighteen years; that on 
 the 3d day of June, 1881, at the places hereinafter 
 mentioned, he served the annexed notice, petition, map, 
 profiles and surveys, on the following named persons, 
 being five of the persons named in said petition, to wit: 
 On James McBride, at No. 2 Monitor street, Buffalo, N. 
 Y. ; on Thomas Sully, at Ohio street, Buffalo, N. Y. ; on 
 Katharine E. Bemis, at 140 East Eagle street, Buffalo, 
 N. Y. ; on Thomas Hennesy, at 56 Hamburgh street, 
 Buffalo, N. Y. ; on Patrick Reagan, at 13 Excelsior 
 street, Buffalo, N. Y. ; by delivering a copy of said notice, 
 petition, map, profiles and surveys to each of the said 
 persons personally and leaving the same with them. 
 
 Deponent further says that he knew the persons so 
 served to be five of the persons who are mentioned and 
 described in said petition as owners of lands affected 
 by the proposed change of the route of tlie New York, 51 
 Lackawanna & Western Railway Company, mentioned 
 and described in said petition, being the same James 
 McBride, Thomas Sully, Katharine R. Bemis, Thomas 
 Hennesy, and Patrick Reagan, in said petition men- 
 tioned. 
 
 JAMES SUTTON. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to ijefore mo, 
 this 13th day of June, 1881. 
 
 W. II. Bradish, 
 
 Notarv Public in and for Erie county, N. Y. 
 
14 
 
 53 State of New York, ( 
 County of Erie, ( ^^' 
 
 James Sutton, being duly sworn, says that he resides 
 in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie and State of New 
 York, and is over the age of eighteen years ; that on the 
 2d day of June, 1881, at the corner of Ohio and Missis- 
 sippi streets, in the city of Buffalo, in the county of Erie 
 and State of New Yorli, he served the annexed notice, 
 petition, map, surveys and profiles on Roger Sweeney, 
 
 53 by delivering a copy of said notice, petition, map, pro- 
 tiles and surveys to him personally and leaving the same 
 with him. 
 
 Deponent furthei- says tliat he knew the person so 
 served to be one of the persons who are mentioned and 
 described in said petition as owners of lands affected by 
 the proposed change of the proposed route of the New 
 York, Lackawanna & Western Railway Company men- 
 tioned and described in said petition, being the same 
 
 "* Roger Sweeney mentioned in said petition. 
 
 J^MES SUTTON. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me, ) 
 this 13th day of June, 1881. j 
 
 W. H. Bradish, 
 
 Notary Public in and for Erie county. 
 
 55 State of New York, ) 
 County of Erie, | ' 
 
 James Sntton, being duly sworn, says that he resides 
 in tlie city of Buffalo, county of Erie and State of New 
 York, and is over the age of nineteen years ; that on the 
 2d day of June, 1881, at near to 134 Abbott road in the 
 city of Buftalo, in the county of Erie and State of New 
 York, he served the annexed notice, petition, map sur- 
 veys and profiles on William Savage, as owner of lot 
 182, and as occupant of lot 180, owned by the G. R. Bab- 
 
i?roof of Service.] 15 
 
 eock estate, and as occupant of lot 183 owned by the 50 
 Robert Bayard estate, and as occupant of lot 187 owned 
 by the James S. Wadsworth estate, and as occupant of 
 lot 188 owned by the Robert Troup estate, all of which 
 lots are designated by their numbers on the map annexed 
 to the petition hereto annexed, by delivering a copy of 
 said notice, petition, map, profiles and surveys to him 
 personally, and leaving the same with him, and that said 
 copy of said notice, petition, map, profiles and surveys 
 so served on said William Savage, were by an indorse- 57 
 ment on the back thereof directed to said Savage indi- 
 vidually and as occupant of said lands belonging to said 
 G. R. Babcock, Robert Bayard, James S. Wadsworth 
 and Robert Troup estates. 
 
 Deponent further says, that he knew the person so 
 served to be one of the persons who are mentioned and 
 described in said petition, and designated on said map 
 as owners of lands affected by the proposed change of 
 the proposed route of the New York, Lackawanna & 
 Western Railway Company mentioned and described in 
 said petition, being the same William Savage in said 
 petition mentioned ; and also to be the person, who is, as 
 deponent is informed and believes, tlic sole occupant of 
 said lands belonging to said Robert Troup, Gr. R. Bab- 
 cock, Robert Bayard and James S. Wadsworth estates. 
 That deponent derives his information as to said Savage 
 being the occupant of said last-mentioned lands from said 
 Savage personally, and from an aflidavit made by said 
 Savage, a copy of which is hereto annexed and made a 
 part of this affidavit. 
 
 JAMES SUTTON. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me, ) 
 this 13th day of June, 1881. j 
 
 W. H. Beadish, 
 Notary Public, Erie county, N. Y. 
 
16 
 
 (30 State of New York, ) 
 County of Erie, j " ' 
 
 William Savage, being dnly sworn, says he resides in 
 Buffalo, Erie county, and State of New York ; that 
 he is a tenant of the Robert Troup estate on lands 
 mentioned and described in a map and profile and pro- 
 posed change of route of the New York, Lackawanna 
 and Western Railway Company, made by the Lake 
 Shore and Michigan Southern Railway Company and 
 
 Ql also by the New York, Lake Erie and Western Railway 
 Companj', and designated on said map as lot No. 6; tliat 
 he is also a tenant of the George R. Babcock estate on 
 lands mentioned and described in said map and profile as 
 lot No. 1 ; that he is also a tenant of the Robert Bayard 
 estate on lands mentioned and described in said map and 
 profile as lot No. 4 ; that he is also a tenant of the JameS S. 
 Wadsworth estate on lands mentioned and described in 
 said map and profile as lot No. 5 ; that as such tenant he 
 
 62 has occupied said lands mentioned as such tenant for six- 
 teen years last past, and now occupies them as such ; that 
 during all of said time he has paid rent on said several 
 pieces to the agents thereof and of each of them except 
 upon the Bayard estate lot, and that he has not known 
 for the four years last, past as to who represents the said 
 Bayard estate ; that all of said property during said 
 time mentioned has been and still is in possession of 
 this deponent under lease from the representatives of 
 
 63 each of said estates respectively. 
 
 That said map or copy thereof is annexed to this affi- 
 davit, and is hereby referred to and forms a part of thig 
 affidavit. 
 
 That there are no other tenants on either of said pieces 
 mentioned except this deponent. 
 
 WILLIAM SAVAGE. 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me ) 
 this 13th day of June, 1881. j 
 
 Charles A. Pooley, 
 
 Notary Public, Erie Co., N. Y. 
 
Proof of Service.] 17 
 
 State of New Youk, ( 
 
 County of Ekie, j ^^- "4 
 
 Joseph A. Milburu, being duly sworn, spjJS that lie re- 
 sides in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie and State of 
 New York, and is over the age of eighteen years ; that 
 on the 3d day of June, 1881, at their residence in the 
 city of Auburn, in the county of Cayuga and State of 
 New York, he served the annexed notice, map, surveys 
 and profile, on Dennis R. Alward as trustee of the estate 
 of George R. Babcock, deceased, and as trustee of the 55 
 estate of Mary B. Babcock, deceased, and on Emily B. 
 Alward by delivering a copy of said notice, petition, 
 map, profile and surveys to each of said persons person- 
 ally and leaving the same with them ; and that the copy 
 of §aid notice, petition, map, surveys and profile so 
 served on said Dennis R. Alward were directed by an in- 
 dorsement upon the back thereof to said Dennis R. Al- 
 ward as trustee of the estate of George R. Babcock, de- 
 ceased, and as trustee of the estate of Mary B. Babcock, 66 
 deceased. Deponent further says that he knew 
 tlie persons so served to be two of the persons who 
 are owners and interested in the Babcock estate 
 mentioned in said petition as one of the owners 
 of laud affected Ijy the proposed change of the pro- 
 posed route of the JNew York, Lackawanna and 
 Western Railway Company mentioned and described in 
 said petition, and that he knew said Dennis R. Alward 
 to be the same person who is trustee of the estate of " ' 
 George R. Babcock deceased, and trustee of the estate 
 of Mary B. Babcock, deceased, and that the said Alward 
 
 is such trustee. 
 
 JOSEPH A. MILBURN. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me, ) 
 this 13th day of June, 1881. j 
 
 Tiios. Bath, 
 Notary Public, Erie County. 
 
18 
 
 68 State of New York, ) 
 County of New Yokk, f ^^" 
 
 Charles C. Marble, being duly sworn, says that he re- 
 sides in the city of New York, county and Ktate of New 
 York, and is over the age of eighteen years ; that at 
 No. 50 Wall street, in the city of New York, 
 in the county and State of Now York, on the 3d day of 
 June, 1881, he served the annexed notice, petition, map, 
 surveys and profile on The New York Life Insurance 
 and Trust Company as trustees of the estate of Char- 
 lotte Brinckerhoft', deceased, by delivering a copy of said 
 notice, petition, map, profile and surveys to Henry Par- 
 ish, the president of said New York Life Insurance and 
 Trust Company, personally and leaving the same with 
 him on the day at the place aforesaid. 
 
 Deponent further says that he knew the said Henry 
 Parisli to be the president of said New York Life Insur- 
 70 ance and Trust Company, and that the copy of said no- 
 tice, petition, map, surveys and profile so served and di- 
 rected by an indorsement on the back thereof to said 
 New Yore Life Insurance and Trust Company as trus- 
 tee of the estate of Charlotte Brinckei'hoff, deceased. 
 
 Deponent further says that at number 218 Fifth Ave- 
 nue, in the city of New York aforesaid, on the 3d day 
 of June, 1881, he served the annexed notice, petition, 
 map, surveys and profile on Louisa Troup by delivering 
 a copy of said notice, petition, map, profile and surveys 
 to her personally and leaving the same with her. 
 
 Deponent further says that he knew the corporation and 
 the person so served to be two of the owners of and two 
 of the persons interested in the Robert Troup estate 
 mentioned in said petition as one of the owners of lands 
 affected by the proposed change of the proposed route of 
 
Proof of Service.] 19 
 
 the New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway Com- 72 
 pany mentioned and described in said petition. 
 
 CHARLES C. MARBLE. 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me, ) 
 this 10th day of June, 1881. f 
 
 Hansen H. Smith, 
 
 Notary Public, N. Y. Co. 
 
 State of New Yohk, ) 73 
 
 County of Erie, J ^^' 
 
 John R. Newton, being duly sworn, says he resides 
 in the village of Angola, county of Erie, and State of 
 New York, and is over eighteen years of age. Tliat on 
 the third day of June, 1881, at the city of Buffalo, N. Y., 
 he served the annexed petition, map, survey, profile and 
 notice, on the Union Iron Company of Buffalo, being 
 one of the parties named in the petition, map, snrvej's, 
 profile and notice aforesaid, by delivering a copy of the rji^. 
 same to and leaving a copy of the same with George 
 Beals, treasurer of said Union Iron Company of Buffalo, 
 personally, and this deponent further says that lie knew 
 the person so served to be the treasurer of the said 
 Union Iron Company of Buff'alo, one of the parties af- 
 fected by tlie proposed route mentioned and described in 
 said petition, map, survey, profile and notice. 
 
 J. R. NEWTON. 
 
 Sworn to before me, ) 
 June 10, 1881. j 
 
 Charles A. Pooley, 
 
 Notary Public, Erie Co., N. Y. 
 
 State of New York, ) ^^ 
 
 County of Erie, j 
 
 James Sutton, being duly sworn, says that he I'esides 
 in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie aud State of New 
 
20 
 
 76 York, and is over nineteen years of age ; that he was 
 present on tlie 2d day of June, 1881, at No. 179 
 Hamburgh street, in said city of Buffalo, when the an- 
 nexed admission of service was signed by Margaret 
 Roach ; that said Margaret Roach was, as she ^stated, 
 unable to write, and requested this deponent to write 
 her name for her to said admission, wliich deponent then 
 did, and the said Margaret Roach then and there ac- 
 knowledged said fignature as hers and afExed her mark 
 
 77 to the same in the presence of deponent; that deponent 
 knew said Margaret Roach who subscribed said admis- 
 sion to be one of the persons who are mentioned and 
 described in the petition in said admission mentioned and 
 described as owners of lands affected by the proposed 
 change of the proposed route of the New York, Lacka- 
 wanna and Western Railwaj- Company mentioned and 
 desci'ibed in said petition ; being the same Margaret 
 Roach in said petition mentioned. 
 
 ^^ JAMES SUTTON. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me, 
 this 13th day of June, 1881. 
 
 W. H. Bkadish, 
 
 Notary Public, Erie county, N. Y. 
 
 State of New Yokk, i 
 County of Erie, j ^^' 
 79 
 
 John G. Milbnrn, being duly sworn, says that he re- 
 sides in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie and State of 
 New York, and is over the age of twenty-one years ; 
 that he saw Mary A. Dennison, whose name is subscribed 
 to the annexed admission of service, sign the same, and 
 that the same was signed at the residence of said Mary 
 A. Dennison, No. 317 Swan street, in the said city of 
 Buffalo ; that as deponent is informed and believes, the 
 said Mary A. Dennison is the same person who is de- 
 
Proof of Service.] 21 
 
 scribed and mentioned in tlie petitioti and map in said go 
 admission referred to as Mary A. Langauhadir, one of 
 the owners of lands affected bj' tlie proposed change of 
 the proposed route of the New York, Lackawanna and 
 Western Railway Company described in said petition ; 
 that the name of said person by a second marriage is 
 Mary A. Langanhadir, bnt that she has assumed her 
 iirst marriage name of Mai-y A. Dennison, and now goes 
 and is known by that name; and that deponent's infor- gi 
 mation as to said facts was derived from said Mary A. 
 Dennison hei-self in conversation with her. 
 
 Deponent further says that he knew tlie pei'son who 
 signed said admission as Mary A. Dennison to be the 
 person who owns the lands designated on said map as 
 owned by Mary A. Langanhadir. 
 
 Deponent further says that at No. 3]1 Main street, in 
 said city of Buffalo, he saw Henry W. Box, whose name ""^ 
 is subscribed to the annexed admission of service, sign 
 the same, and that said Henry W. Box, who signed said 
 admission, is the person of that name mentioned and 
 described in the petition and map referred to in said ad- 
 mission as one of the owners of lands affected by the 
 said proposed change of the said proposed route of the 
 
 New York,Lackawanna and Western Railway Company. 
 
 83 
 JOHN G. MILBURN. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me, ) 
 this 13th day of June, 1881. ) 
 
 W. H. Bradish, 
 
 Notary Public, Erie county, N. Y. 
 
22 
 84 SUPREME COURT. 
 
 In the Matter of the Petition of 
 THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANl 
 FOR THE Appointment of Commission- 
 ers TO Examine the Proposed Route V 
 of 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 PANY. 
 
 85 
 
 We, the undersigned, each admit due and persoual 
 service upon each of us respectively, at the city of Buf- 
 falo, N. Y., on the 2d day June, 1881, of a copy of the 
 petition, notice of presentation thereof, surveys, map and 
 ^ profiles hereto annexed, which petition and notice are 
 dated the 1st day of Jane, 1881. 
 
 Dated, June 2d, 1881. 
 
 Her 
 
 MRS. MARGARET + ROCHE, 
 
 Mai'k. 
 
 179 Hamburgh street. 
 Witness, James Sutton. 
 
 MARY A. UENNISON, 
 
 317 Swan street. 
 
 HENRY W. BOX, 
 
 311 Main street. 
 
Admi'ssions.J "M 
 
 SUPREME COURT. 88 
 
 In the Matter of tke Application of 
 THE NEW YORK. LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY 
 FOii THE Appointment of Commission- 
 ers TO Examine the Proposed Route 
 op 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 PANY, IN THE County op Erie, State 
 op New York. 
 
 State of New Yoek, ) 
 Erie County, f ^^■ 
 
 89 
 
 Ansley Wilcox, being sworn, says that he resides in 
 the city of Buffalo ; that he is well acquainted with 
 Mary Grace Rumsey, of said city, whose name is sub- 
 scribed to the annexed admission of service of the an- 
 nexed petition, map, profile, and survey and notice of pre- 
 sentation, and with her signature; that he was present 90 
 and saw her sign said admission at her residence, No. 742 
 Delaware avenue, in the city of Buffalo, on the 3d day 
 of June, 1881, and that deponent also subscribed his 
 name thereto on said day. 
 
 Deponent further says that he is informed and believes 
 tliat said papers were served on him and on said Mary 
 Grace Rumsey, as representatives of the estate of Mary 
 Rumsey, deceased ; that he is well acquainted with the 
 real property lying between Miami and Mackinaw ^^ 
 streets, and 156 65-100 feet west of Hamburg street, in 
 said city of Buffalo, which is referred to in the maps and 
 in the petition in this proceeding as belonging to Mary 
 Rumsey or to the estate of Mary Rumsey, and that the 
 present owners of said property are the said Mary Grace 
 Rumsey, who owns an undivided one-half part thereof, 
 this deponent who owns a life estate in the other one- 
 half part thereof, and Cornelia R. Wilcox, who owns the 
 remainder in the said second one-half part of said prop- 
 
24 
 
 92 erty ; and that said Cornelia R. Wilcox is an infant and 
 a daughter of deponent, and that deponent is her gen- 
 eral guardian. 
 
 ANSLEY WILCOX. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before^ 
 me, June 4, 1881. i 
 
 W. H. Beadish, 
 
 Notary Public, Erie county, N. Y. 
 
 SUPREME COURT. 
 
 In the Matter of the Application 
 OF THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE 
 AND WESTERN RAILROAD COM- 
 PANY FOR THE Appointment of Com- 
 missioners TO Examine the Proposed 
 
 ROTTTE 
 
 OF 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 g , PA NY, IN THE County OF Erie, State 
 OF New York. 
 
 State of New York, , 
 
 - — ' "- ss. 
 
 IKK, ) 
 
 County of Erie, j 
 
 Frank F. Williams, being duly sworn, says that he 
 resides in the city of Buffalo, county and State aforesaid, 
 and is more than twenty-one years of age ; that he 
 knows the signature of Franklin Lee affixed to the an- 
 nexed admission of service to be that of the Frank Lee 
 05 mentioned in the annexed petition and notice, and that 
 the said signature was affixed to said admission of service 
 at the residence of said Frank Lee, number 165 North 
 street, in said city of Buffalo, on the 2d day of June, 
 1881, in the presence of deponent. 
 
 FRANK F. WILLIAMS. 
 Subscribed and sworn to before I 
 
 me, June 2, 1881. \ 
 
 W. H. Bradish, 
 
 Notary Public, Erie county, N. Y. 
 
AdmissionB.J 
 
 25 
 
 I, Jonathan Sidwaj', of the city of Buffalo, N. Y., gg 
 hereby admit due and personal service of the annexed 
 petition, map, survey, profile and notice, upon me this 
 3d day of June, 1881, at No. 188 Main street, in said 
 city of Buffalo, wliich said petition is verified the 1st day 
 of June, 1881, and is noticed for a hearing at the cham- 
 bers of the Supreme Court, attlie City and County Hall, 
 in the city of Buffalo, on the i;-5th day of June, 1881. 
 
 JONATHAN SIDWAY. 
 
 SUPREME COURT. 
 
 97 
 
 In the Matter of the Application 
 OF THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE 
 AND WESTERN RAILROAD COM- 
 PANY FOR THE Appointment of Com- 
 MissiONBiis to Examine the Proposed 
 Route 
 
 of 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 PANY. 
 
 We, the undersigned, each admit due and personal 
 service upon each of us respectively of a copy of the pe- 
 tition and notice in the above-entitled proceeding, dated 
 the 1st day of June, 1881, which are hereto annexed, and 
 also of the surveys, maps and profiles annexed to said 
 petition this 2d day of June, 1881, at the city of Buffalo, 
 N. Y. 
 
 Dated Jnue 2, 1881. 
 
 98 
 
 99 
 
 Where served: 
 165 North street. 
 692 Main street. 
 742 Delaware avenue. 
 381 Main street. 
 
 FRANKLIN LEE. 
 ESTHER A. GLENN Y. 
 MARY GRACE RUMSEV 
 ANSLEY WILCOX. 
 
26 
 
 100 SUPREME COURT. 
 
 In the Matter op the Application 
 OF THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE 
 AND WESTERN RAILROAD COM- 
 PANY FOR THE Appointment of Com- 
 missioners TO Examine the Piioposed 
 Route 
 
 OP 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 PANY, IN the County of Ehie, State 
 
 101 OF New York. 
 
 To the New York, Lackawanna and Western Rail- 
 way Company, and each of the persons named in 
 the Petition as owners of lands affected hy the alter- 
 ation of route therein proposed, or the occupants of 
 such lands : 
 You and each of you will take notice, that the petition 
 
 of the New York, Lake Erie and Western Railroad 
 
 102 Company, verified on the 1st day of June, 18S1, together 
 with the survey, map and profile accompanying the 
 same, with copies of which you are herewith served, will 
 be presented to the Hon. Albert Haight, one of the 
 justices of the Supreme Court of the State of New 
 York, or such other justice of such court as may then be 
 present, at the chambers of the justices of said Su- 
 preme Court, in the City and County Hall at the city of 
 Buffalo, in the county of Erie, State of Now York, on 
 
 It's Monday, the 13th day of June, 1881, at ten o'clock in 
 the forenoon of that day, or as soon thereafter as counsel 
 can be heard, and that an application will then and 
 there be made that the prayer of said petition be 
 granted. 
 
 Dated June 1, 1881. 
 
 Yours, etc., 
 
 SPRAGUE, MILBURN & SPRAGUE, 
 
 Attorneys for Petitioner, 
 
 Office address, 377 Main street, Buffalo, N. Y. 
 
Petition.] 27 
 
 SUPREME COURT. 104 
 
 In the Matter op the Application of 
 THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY, 
 FOK THE Appointment op Oommession- 
 ERs to Examine the Proposed Route 
 
 op 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKa'wANNA AND 
 WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANY, in 
 the County of Erie, New York State. 
 
 105 
 
 To the Hon. Albert Haight, or any of the other justices 
 of the Supreme Court of the State of New York, 
 in the Eight Judical District : 
 
 The petition of the New York, Lake Erie and Western 
 Railroad Company respectfully shows : 
 
 That your petitioner is a corporation duly organized 
 and existing under and in pursuance of an act of the 
 Legislature of the State of New York, entitled " An act 106 
 to facilitate the reorganization of railroads sold " under 
 mortgage, and providing for the formation of new com- 
 panies in such cases," passed May 11, 1874, and the acts 
 amendatory tiiereof and supplementary thereto, and as 
 such corporation is engaged in the operation of a rail- 
 road between Jersey City, in the State of New Jersey, 
 and the city of Buffalo, in said county of Erie, and 
 which said railroad extends into the said city of Buffalo • 
 that the certificate of incorporation of your petitioner, 
 in due form, was filed in the office of the Secretary of 
 State, of the State of New York, and your petitioner 
 became a body corporate pursuant to the act before 
 mentioned, on or about the twenty-seventh day of April, 
 1878. 
 
 Your petitioner further states that the Buffalo, New 
 York and Erie Railroad Company is a corporation duly 
 
is 
 
 08 organized and incorporated under and in pursuance of 
 an act of the Legislature of the State of New York, 
 entitled " An Act to authorize the formation of railroad 
 companies and to regulate the same," passed April 2, 
 1850, and the acts amendatory thereof and in addition 
 thereto; that said last-mentioned company constructed 
 and finished, and is now the owner of, a railroad extend- 
 ing from the village of Corning, in the county of 
 Steuben, to said city of Buffalo, being the termini 
 109 named in the articles of incorporation of that company ; 
 that the said railroad of the company last mentioned 
 joins and unites with the i-ailroad owned by your peti- 
 tioner, in the village of Attica, in the county of Wyom- 
 ing.; that your petitioner is the lessee of said railroad of 
 said Buffalo, New York and Erie Railroad Company 
 and all its appurtenances, and is now, and for several 
 years last past lias been, engaged in running and operat- 
 ing the same, and now has and for several years last past 
 has had possession of the same as such lessee as aforesaid ; 
 and that said last-mentioned railroad is the line of rail- 
 road operated by your petitioner, from the village of 
 Attica aforesaid, to and into the city of Buffalo, as part 
 of its said railroad extending from the said Jersey City, 
 to and into the said city of Buffalo. 
 
 Your petitioner further states that heretofore and 
 within fifteen days prior to the date hereof, to wit, on 
 the nineteenth day of May, 1881, a written notice 
 was served on Augustus R. McDonough, the secretary 
 of your petitioner, directed to H. J. Jewett, president of 
 the New York, Lake Erie and Western Railroad Com- 
 pany, which notice was dated the nineteenth day of May, 
 1881, was signed by the secretary of the New York, 
 Lackawanna and Western Railway Company, and was 
 to the effect that a map and profile of the route intended 
 to be adopted by the New York, Lackawanna and 
 Western Railway Company, in the county of Erie, cer- 
 
 111 
 
Petition.] 2d 
 
 tiiieil in due form of law by the president and engineer 112 
 of said company, was on the nineteenth day of May, 1881, 
 duly filed in the office of the caunty clerk of the connty 
 of Erie, and that the said route designated thereby 
 passes over the land of your petitioner or over land 
 actually occupied by it, situated in the said city of 
 Buffalo, in said county of Erie. 
 
 Your petitioner further states that the routes intended 
 to be adbpted by said New York, Lackawanna and 
 Western Railway Company particularly designated by 113 
 paid map and profile, as routes or lines A and B pass 
 over the railroad lands and tracks occupied by your 
 petitioner, in said city of Buffalo, as lessee as aforesaid 
 of said BuflFalo, New York and Erie Railroad Company, 
 at the point designated on tlie map hereto annexed and 
 accompanying this petition ; being lands and tracks in 
 use by your petitioner for its railroad purposes, and 
 necessary thereto ; and that said lands and tracks are 
 part of the said railroad owned as aforesaid by the Buffalo, 
 New York and Erie Railroad Company. 
 
 Your petitioner further states that it objects to the 
 said proposed rontes of said New York, Lackawanna 
 and Western Railway Company, in the county of Erie 
 aforesaid, designated by said map and profile filed as 
 aforesaid by said New York, Lackawanna and Western 
 Railway Company as routes or lines A and B, or to 
 those portions of said routes described in the survey 
 thereof accompanying this petition, feeling aggrieved 
 thereby ; and that the following are your petitioner's 
 objections to the same. 
 
 First. The said proposed route crosses at grade the 
 tracks of said railroad, owned by the Bufiiilo, New 
 York and Erie Railroad Company and occupied by 
 your petitioner as lessee as aforesaid, said tracks being 
 the main freight line and freight tracks of your petitioner, 
 in the city of Buffalo, aforesaid, over which ie trans- 
 
30 
 
 116 ported a very large and increasing freight traffic ; and 
 that said grade crossing will greatly increase the danger 
 and expense of operating both railroads, and seriously 
 impede the transaction of their business. 
 
 Second. At the point of said crossing, the tracks of 
 the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway Com- 
 pany, and of your petitioner, form a system of railroad 
 tracks where all freight cars which have to pass over 
 both of said roads are transferred between said two last- 
 
 117 mentioned railways, the one being a western and the 
 other an eastern railway; that" said system of tracks is 
 constantly in use for the making up and distribution of 
 freight trains and the assortment of cars, and that a 
 grade crossing by the New York, Lackawanna and 
 Western Railway Company at that point would seri- 
 ously embarrass and hinder, if not practically prevents 
 the transaction of this business and greatly enhance tlie 
 cost and expense thereof, and be the cause of great de- 
 lays and inconvenience to the public. 
 
 Third. These objections will be largely obviated by 
 an alteration in the said routes A and B, designated 
 by said New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway 
 Company, which will carry the point of crossing fur- 
 ther away from where the main exchange of cars be- 
 tween the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway 
 Company and your petitioner is carried on, and also by 
 ^..making said crossing an overhead one, thus avoidini^; 
 all the dangers, delays and expense of a grade cross 
 ing. 
 
 Your petitioner further states, that these several ob- 
 jections may be largely avoided and the interests of all 
 parties and the public be subserved by changing and 
 altering said proposed routes of the New York, Lacka- 
 wanna and Western Railway Company, in the said city 
 of Buffalo and county of Erie, designated on the said 
 map and profile as lines or routes A and B, and that the 
 
Petition.] 31 
 
 following are the routes to which it is proposed by your ^gn 
 petitioner to alter said proposed routes A and B of said 
 New York, Lackawanna and Western Eailway Company : 
 First. Said proposed alteration of said route or line 
 
 A, comraencing at a point in the city of Buifalo, in said 
 county of Erie, on lands owned by the estate of Mary 
 Rumsey, and in the center line of said route or line A 
 of the New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway 
 Company as desii,'nated by that company on its map filed 
 
 in the office of the Clerk of the county of Erie, which 121 
 point is numbered and designated on said map as station 
 161 + 82.6; running thence on a curve to the right with 
 a radius of two thousand seven Imndred, seven and five- 
 tenths (2,707 5-10) feet, a distance of seven hundred and 
 thirty-seven and four-tenths (737 4-10) feet; thence on a 
 tangent south 44° 06', east twelve hundred and forty- 
 three (1243) feet ; thence on a curve to the left with a 
 radius of sixteen hundred and three and five-tenths 
 (1603 o-lO) feet, a distance of seven hundred and eighty- ^^^ 
 one (781) feet; thence on a curve to the right with a 
 radius of sixteen hundred and three and five-tenths 
 (1603 5-10) feet, a distance of five hundred and seventy- 
 eight and six-tenths (578 6-10) feet to a point in said 
 center line of said route or line A, designated by said 
 New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway Company, 
 numbered and designated on its said map as station 
 
 194-1-76 in said route or line A. 
 
 123 
 Second. Said proposed alteration of said route or line 
 
 B, conimencing at station 183-)- 94 in the above-described 
 center line ; running thence on a curve to the left with 
 a radius of eight hundred and fourteen and four-tenths 
 feet, a distance of five hundred and ninety-four feet; 
 thence on a tangent north 85° 26^', east eight hundred 
 and eight and seven-tenths (808 7-10) feet to a point in 
 said center lino of said route or line B, designated by 
 said New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway 
 
32 
 
 124 Company, niunbered and designated on its said map as 
 station 218 + 33.3 in said route or line B. 
 
 Your petitioner fiirtlier states that tlie said alteration 
 herein proposed by the New York, Lake Erie and West- 
 ern Railroad Company of the said proposed routes A 
 and B of said New York, Lackawanna and Western 
 Railway Company will not cause greater damage or in- 
 jury to lands or materially greater length of road than 
 the said routes A and B, designated by said last-men- 
 
 125 tioned company would cause, and that it will not sub- 
 stantially change the general line adopted by said last- 
 mentioned company. 
 
 Your petitioner further states that the names of the 
 owners of the lands affected by said proposed alteration 
 of the said proposed routes A and B of the said New 
 York, Lackawanna and Western Railway Company are 
 Robert Troup Estate, G. R. Babcock Estate, Henry W. 
 Box, William Savage, Robert Bayard Estate, James 
 130 g_ Wadsworth Estate, The Lake Shore and Michigan 
 Southern Railway Company, The Union Iron Company 
 of Buffalo, Charles Flynn, John Conners, James McBride, 
 Thomas Sully, Jonathan Sidway, Katharine R. Bemis, 
 Thomas Hennesy, Patrick Reagan, Roger Sweeney, 
 Esther A. Glenny, Margaret Roach, Mary A. Langan- 
 hadir, Frank Lee, and The Estate of Mary Rumsey and 
 The City of Buffalo. 
 
 Annexed hereto, and accompanying this petition are 
 a survey, map and profile of the said routes A and B as 
 designated by the New York, Lackawanna and Western 
 Railway Company and of the proposed alteration thereof. 
 
 Wherefore, your petitioner prays for the appointment 
 of three disinterested persons, one of whom shall be a 
 practical civil engineer, commissioners to examine the 
 said route proposed by the said New York, Lackawanna 
 and Western Railway Company and the said routes A 
 and B, designated by that company, and the routes to 
 
Proof of Service.] 33 
 
 wliich it is proposed to alter the same ; and, after hearing ^28 
 the parties, to afiirm or alter the same as may be con- 
 sistent with the just rights of all parties and the public, 
 and in accordance with the statute in such case made 
 and provided. 
 
 Dated, June 1, 1881. 
 
 The New York, Lake Erie and ■ 
 
 Western Railroad Company, 
 
 By S. S. GUTHRIE, 
 
 Director. l'^9 
 Spkague, Milburn & Sprague, Attorneys for the Peti- 
 tioner, Office address, 377 Main street, Buffalo, N. Y. 
 
 State of New York, / 
 Erie County, j 
 
 Solomon S. Guthrie, being duly sworn, says that he is 
 
 a director and the general agent of the New York, Lake 
 
 Erie and Western Railroad Company, the petitioner 
 
 above named ; that he has read the foregoing petition and 130 
 
 knows the contents thereof, and that the same is true to 
 
 his own knowledge except as to the matters therein stated 
 
 to be alleged on information and belief; and that as to 
 
 those matters he believes it to be true. 
 
 S. S. GUTHRIE. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before -ine,? 
 this first day of June, 1881. 5 
 
 Frank F. Williams, 
 
 Notary Public, Erie county, N. Y. 131 
 
 State of New York, j 
 County op New York, \ 
 
 Charles L. Atterbury, being duly sworn, says that he 
 
 resides in the city of New York, county and State of 
 
 New York, and is over the age of eighteen years ; that 
 
 at No. 26 Exchange Place, in the city of New York, 
 
 in the county and State of New York, on the second 
 
 day of June, 1881, he served the annexed notice, petition. 
 
u 
 
 122 map, surveys and profile on the New York, Lackawanna 
 and Western Railway Company, described and named 
 in said petition, by delivering a copy of said notice, peti- 
 tion, map, profile and snrveys to Fred F. Chambers, the 
 secretary of said company, personally, and leaving the 
 same with him on the day and at the place aforesaid. 
 Deponent further says that he knew the said Fred F. 
 Chambers to be the secretary of the said New York, 
 Lackawanna and Western Railway Company. 
 
 133 C. L. ATTERBURY. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me, ) 
 this eighth 6ay ot June, 1881. j 
 
 Charles C. Makble (106), 
 
 Notary Public, N. Y. city and county. 
 
 Survey of the Portions of the Routes "A" and "B," 
 Dksignated by the New York, Lackawanna and 
 134 Western Railway Company, in the County of Erie, 
 OF which an Alteration is Proposed by the New 
 York, Lake Erie and Western Railroad Com- 
 pany. 
 
 " Survey of the said portion of Line or Route A." 
 Beginning at a point in the city of Buffalo, in said 
 county of Erie, on lands owned by the estate of Mary 
 Rumsey, and in the center line of the route or line "A," 
 _ of tlie New York, Lackawanna and Western Railwaj' 
 Company, as designated by that companj' on its map 
 filed in the ofiice of the clerk of the county of Erie, 
 which point is numbered and designated on said map as 
 station 161 + 82.6; running thence on a curve to the 
 riglit with a radius of 3,581 feet, a distance of 497 9-10 
 feet; thence on a tangent south 51° 33' east 2,795 5-10 
 feet to a point in said center line numbered and desig- 
 nated on said map as station 194 + 76 in said line or 
 route "A," the line above described being the center line 
 of the portion of said line or route "A," designated by 
 
Surveys.] 35 
 
 the New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway 136 
 Company, in the county of Erie aforesaid, of which an 
 alteration is proposed by the New York, Lake Erie and 
 Western Railroad Company, tlie whole area of snch por- 
 tion of said route being included between the lines run- 
 ning parallel with said center line and on each side 
 thereof, and 49J^ feet distant therefrom, and also the land 
 included within the lines shaded pink, on said map filed 
 by the New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway 
 Company, and lying bStween the stations referred to in 137 
 said description of said center line, 
 
 ^'■Survey of said portion of Line or Route BP 
 Beginning at station 180 + 62.3 in the above described 
 center line ; running thence on a curve to the left witli 
 a radius of 2,122 feet, a distance of 1,496 5-10 feet to a 
 point in said center line numbered and designated on 
 said map as station 218 + 33.3 in said line or route 
 "B," tlie line above described being the center line of 
 the portion of said line or route " B," designated by the 
 New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway Com- 
 pany, in the county of Erie aforesaid, of which an alter- 
 ation is proposed by the New York, Lake Erie and 
 Western Railroad Company; the whole area of said 
 portion of line or route "B" being included between 
 two lines, one on each side of the center line last above 
 dciscribed, parallel thereto and distant 49^ feet there- 
 from. ^33 
 
 Survey of the Alteration of the Routes "A" and 
 "B," Designated by the New York, Lackawanna 
 AND Western Railway Company, in the County 
 of Erie, as Proposed by the New York, Lake 
 Erie and Western Railroad Company. 
 
 '■'■Survey of 'proposed alteration of Route or lAne ^." 
 
 Beginning at a point in the city of Buffalo, in said 
 
 county of Erie, on lands owned by the estate of Mary 
 
36 
 
 140 Ruinsey, and in the center line of said ronte or Hue 
 "A" of the New York, Lacltawanna and Western Rail- 
 way Company, as designated by that company on its 
 map, filed in the office of the clerk of the county of Erie, 
 which point is numbered and designated on said map as 
 station 161+82.6; ruiming thence on a curve to the 
 right with a radius of 2,707 5-10 feet, a distance of 
 737 4-10 feet ; thence on a tangent south 44^ 06' east, 
 1,243 teet; thence on a curve to tlie left with a radius 
 
 141 of 1,603 5-10 feet, a distance of 781 feet ; thence on 
 a curve to right with a radius of 1,603 5-10 feet, a 
 distance of 578 6-10 feet, to a point in said center 
 line of said route or line "A," designated by said 
 New York, Lackawanna and Western Kailway Com- 
 pany, numbered and designated on its said map as 
 station 194 + 76 in said route or line "A"; the line 
 above described being the center line of the route to 
 whicli it is proposed by the said New York, Lake 
 
 ^^^ Erie and Western Railroad Company to alter the said 
 rou*^e designated by the said New York, Lackawanna and 
 Western Railway Company, as route or line "A" on 
 its said map ; the whole area of the said route to which 
 it is so proposed to alter the said route designated by 
 said New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway Com- 
 pany as route or line "A," being inclosed within two 
 blue lines, one on each side of said center line above de- 
 scribed and parallel thereto, and 49^ feet distant tliere- 
 from, excepting that portion crossing tlie rights of way 
 of the railroad occupied by your petitioner, and the rail- 
 road of the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway 
 Company, at which excepted points said blue lines are 
 each distant 25 feet from said center line above de- 
 scribed. 
 
 '^Svrvey of proposed alteration of Route or Line H." 
 
 Beginning at station 183 + 94 in the al)ove described 
 
 center line, running thence on a curve to the left with a 
 
Snrvejs.J 37 
 
 radius of 814 4-10 feet, a distance of 594 feet,; tlience on 144 
 a tangent north 85" 26^' east, 808 7-10 feet to a point in 
 said center line of said route or line " B," designated 
 by said New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway 
 Company, numbered and designated on its said map as 
 station 218 + 33.3 in said route or line "B"; the line 
 above described being the center line of the route to 
 which it is proposed by the said New York, Lake Erie 
 and Western Eailroad Company to alter the said route 145 
 designated by the said New York, Lackawanna and 
 Western Railway Company as said route or line "B"; 
 the whole area of the said route to which it is so pro- 
 posed to alter the route designated by said last men- 
 tioned company as said route or line "B," being in- 
 cluded between two lines, one on each side of the center 
 line last-above described, parallel thereto and distant 49^ 
 feet therefrom. 146 
 
 (Here follows the map annexed to the petition which 
 is the same map as Petitioners' Exhibit I, a copy of 
 which is herewith printed.) 
 
 State of New York, ) 
 County of Erie, f ' 
 
 James Sutton, being duly sworn, says that he resides 
 in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie, and State of New -^^' 
 York, and is over the age of nineteen years ; that on the 
 3d day of June, 1881, at No. 21 Fitzgerald street, in the 
 city of Buffalo, in the county of Erie, and State of New 
 York, he delivered a copy of the aimexed notice, peti- 
 tion, map, prolile and surveys to Mrs. Charles Flynn per- 
 sonally, and left the same with her. 
 
 Deponent further says that he knew the person so 
 served to be the wife of Charles Flynn, one of the per- 
 sons mentioned and described in said petition as owners 
 of lands affected by the proposed change of the proposed 
 route of the New York, Lackawanna and Western Rail- 
 
38 
 
 2^g way Company, mentioned and described in said petition; 
 and that it was indorsed on the copy of said notice, peti- 
 tion, map, profile and snrveys so delivered to and left with 
 said Mrs. Charles flynn, that the same were served in 
 pursuance of an order of the Supreme (]lourt of the 
 State of York, made in the within entitled proceeding 
 on the 3d day of June, 1881. 
 
 JAMES SUTTON. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me,\ 
 this 13th day of June, 1881. 5 
 
 140 W. H. Eeadish, 
 
 Notary Public, Erie county, N. Y. 
 
 State of New York, 
 County of Erie, \ ^^' 
 
 James Sutton, being duly sworn, says that he resides 
 in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie, and State of New 
 York, and is over the age of nineteen years; that on the 
 3d day of June, 1881, at No. 23 Fitzgerald street, in the 
 ,, city of Buffalo, in the county of Erie, and State of New 
 York, ho delivered a copy of the annexed notice, peti- 
 tion, map, profiles and surveys to Mrs. John Connors 
 personally, and left the same with her. 
 
 Deponent further says that he knew the person so 
 served to be the wife of John Conners, one of the per- 
 sons mentioned and described in said petition as owners 
 of lands affected by the proposed change of the pro- 
 posed route of the New York, Lackawanna and Western 
 Railway Company, mentioned and described in said peti- 
 151 tion; and that it was indorsed on the copy of said notice, 
 petition, map, profiles and surveys so delivered to and 
 left with said Mrs. John Conners, that the same were 
 served in pursuance of an order of the Supreme Court 
 of the State of New York, made in the within entitled 
 proceeding on the 3d day of June, 1881. 
 
 JAMES SUTTON. 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me, \ 
 thisl3th day of June, 1881. f 
 
 W. H. Beadish, 
 
 N otary PnhbV. Tf.i-ip nn-nn^^ N_ y. 
 
Proof of Service.] 3^ 
 
 State of New Yokk, I 152 
 
 County of Erie, 1 ®^' 
 
 Frank F. Williams, being duly sworn, says that he 
 resides in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie, and 
 State of New York, and is over the age of twenty-one 
 years ; that on the 3d day of June, 1881, he deposited 
 in the post-office at said city of Buffalo, five sets of 
 copies of the notice, petition, map, profiles and surveys 
 hereto annexed, each set properly folded and contained 
 in a securely-closed wrapper, and respectively directed 153 
 to the several persons hereinafter named, at the places 
 and addreses below stated, to wit : 
 
 To Louisa Troup, No. 218 Fifth avenue, city of New 
 York, N. Y. 
 
 To Evelyn W. Wadsworth, guardian of Craig W. 
 Wadsworth and James S. Wadsworth, Bath, Berkely 
 Springs, Virginia. 
 
 To Egerton L. Winthrop, general guardian of Fred- 
 erick B. Winthrop, Egerton L. Winthrop, Jr., and 15 1 
 Charlotte T. B. Winthrop, care Drexel, Hayes & Co., 
 Paris, France. 
 
 To Sarah H. Babcock, Oakland, California. 
 
 To Charles Flynii, Chicago, State of Illinois. 
 
 Deponent further says that on each of said sets of 
 copies of said notice, petition, map, profiles and surveys, 
 so deposited in said post-office, he paid the postage 
 chargeable thereon, respectively, in the United States ; 
 and that it was indorsed on each of said sets of papers that ^^^ 
 the same were served in pursuance of an order of the 
 Supreme Court of the State of New York, made in the 
 within entitled proceeding on the 3d day of June, 1881. 
 
 FRANK F. WILLIAMS. 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me, ) 
 this 13th day of June, 1881. \ 
 
 W. H. B RADISH, 
 
 Notary Public, Erie county, N. Y. 
 
40 
 
 156 SUPEEME COURT. 
 
 In the Matter op the Application of 
 THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY 
 FOR THE Appointment of Commission- 
 ers TO Examine the Proposed Route 
 
 OF 
 
 THE NEW YORK LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 PANY, IN the County of Erie, State 
 
 157 OF New York. 
 
 To the New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway 
 Company, and each of the persons nained in the peti- 
 tion as owners of lands affected by the alteration of 
 the route therein proposed, or the occupants of such 
 lands : 
 
 You and each of you will take notice, that the peti- 
 tion of the New York, Lake Erie and Western Railroad 
 
 158 Company, verified on the 1st day of June, 1S81, together 
 with the survey, map and profile accompanying the same, 
 with copies of which you are herewith served, will be 
 presented to the Hon. Albert Haight, one of the justices 
 of the Supreme Court of the State of New York, or such 
 other justice of such court as may then be present, at 
 the chambers of the justices of said Supreme Court, in 
 the City and County Hall, at the city of Bufl[alo, in the 
 county of Erie, State of New York, on Tuesday, the 5th 
 day of July, 1881, at ten o'clock in the forenoon of that 
 day, or as soon thereafter as counsel can be heard, and 
 that an application will then and there be made that 
 the prayer of said petition be granted. 
 
 Dated June 1, 1881. 
 
 Yours, &c., 
 
 SPRAGUE, MILBURN & SPRAGUE, 
 
 Attorneys for Petitioner, 
 Office address, 377 Main street, Buffalo, N. Y. 
 
Order.J 41 
 
 (Here follows the petition of the New York, Lake Erie ^qq 
 and Western Railroad Company, and the surveys already 
 hereinbefore inserted, and the map which is the same 
 map as Exhibit 1 printed herewith.) 
 
 SUPREME COURT.— At Ciiambers, Buffalo, N. Y. 
 
 161 
 
 In the MATTEai of the Application of 
 THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY 
 FOR THE Appointment of Commission- 
 ers TO Examine the Proposed Route 
 
 OP 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 PANY, IN the County op Erie, State 
 OF New York. 
 
 162 
 
 Upon reading and filing the petition of the petitioner 
 herein, duly verified on the 1st day of June, 1881, to- 
 gether with the map, profiles and surveys thereto annexed, 
 and the proofs of the due service of a copy of the said 
 petition, map, profiles and surveys, with notice of this 
 application, on all the owners or occupants of lands to be 
 affected by the proposed alteration of the proposed route 
 of the New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway 
 
 1 no 
 
 Company set forth in said petition : 
 
 And after hearing Mr. Milburn, of counsel for the pe- 
 titioner, The New York, Lake Erie and Western Rail- 
 road Company, in support of the motion for the appoint- 
 ment of commissioners herein, and Mr. Locke, of coun- 
 sel for the respondent. The New York, Lackawanna and 
 Western Railway Company, appearing in its behalf: 
 
 It is ordered that Wm. J. McAlpine, a practical civil 
 engineer, Delavan F. Clark and Edward L. Stevenson, 
 
42 
 
 164 three disintei'ested persons, be and they hereby are ap- 
 pointed commissioners to examine the route proposed by 
 the New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway Com- 
 pany, and the route to which it is proposed to alter the 
 same by the petitioner herein, as set forth in its said pe- 
 tition, and the map, profiles and surveys thereto annexed, 
 and after hearing the parties, to approve the route orig- 
 inally designated by said respondent, or adopt the said 
 proposed alteration thereof, as may be consistent v^ith 
 
 165 the just rights of all parties and the public, including the 
 owners or occupants of lands upon said proposed altera- 
 tion, and in accordance vs^ith the statute in that ease 
 made and provided. 
 
 It is further ordered that the first meeting of said com- 
 missioners be held on the 13th day of July, 1881, at 10 
 o'clock in the forenoon of that day, at the office of Bowou, 
 Rogers & Locke, No. 28 Erie street, in the city of 
 Buffalo, N. Y. 
 
 Dated, July 8, 1881. GEORGE BARKER, 
 
 J. S. C. 
 
 166 
 
 SUPREME COURT. 
 
 In the Mattbr op the Application 
 OF THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE 
 AND WESTERN RAILROAD COM- 
 PANY FOH THE Appointment op Com- 
 missionees to examine the proposed 
 167 Route 
 
 OF 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 PANY, IN THE City op Buffalo, and 
 the Route ro which it is Proposed 
 TO Alter the Same. 
 
 Erie County, ) 
 City of Buffalo, \ ' 
 
 We, the subscribers, commissioners appointed in this 
 
 matter by an oi'der of the Supreme Court, do severally 
 
Com. Report.] 43 
 
 swear that we will support the constitution of the United igg 
 States and the constitntion of the State of New 
 York, and that we will faithfully discharge the duties 
 of the office of such commissioners to the best of 
 onr ability. 
 
 WM. J. McALPINE, 
 E. L. STEVENSON, 
 DELAY AN F. CLARK, 
 
 Commissioners. iqq 
 
 Sworn and subscribed before me, 1 
 this 13th day of July, 1881. ( 
 
 [l. S.J Wm. Johnson, 
 
 Notary Public in and for Erie county, N. Y. 
 
 SUPREME COURT, Erie County. 
 
 Ik the Matter of the Application of 
 THE NEW yORK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY, 
 FOR THE Appointment of Commission- 
 ers TO Examine the Ppoposbd Route 
 
 OF 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA AND 
 WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANY, in 
 THE County of Erie, New York State, 
 AND THE Route to which it is Pro- 
 posed to Alter the Same. 
 
 170 
 
 171 
 
 We, the undersigned, commissioners appointed in this 
 proceeding by the Honorable George Barker, one of the 
 justices of the Supreme Court of the State of New York, 
 by an order made by him at chambers, on the 7th day 
 of July, 1881, do hereby certify and report. 
 
 That we have been attended by the counsel of the pe- 
 _titioner and the respondent, The New York, Lackawan- 
 na and Western Railway Company, respectively, and 
 
44 
 
 I'J'giiavc personally examined the route proposed by the 
 New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway Company, 
 in the city of Buffalo, county of Erie, and State of New 
 Yoj-k, and the route to which the petitioner has proposed 
 to alter the same in this proceeding, and that we have 
 heard the proofs and allegations of the respective 
 parties, and the argument of their counsel ; and after 
 due deliberation we have determined to affirm and do 
 hereby affirm the route originally designated by the 
 New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway Company, 
 in the county of Erie, in said State, as shown by the map, 
 survey and profile accompanying the petition in this pro- 
 ceeding. 
 
 Which approval and determination we hereby certify ; 
 
 and we do hereby direct that our determination and cer- 
 174 . ■' 
 
 tiiicate, together with the petition in this proceeding, the 
 
 map, survey and profile attached thereto, and the testi- 
 mony taken before us herein, be filed in the office of the 
 clerk of the county of Erie, in the State of New York. 
 
 Dated, Buffalo, August 4th, 1881. 
 
 ^^g DELAY AN F. CLARK, 
 
 E. L. STEVENSON, 
 WM. J. McALPINE, 
 
 Commissioners. 
 
Hawkes.] 45 
 
 SUPREME COURT, Erie County. '"'^ 
 
 In the Matter of tub Application 
 OF THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE 
 AND WESTERN RAILROAD COM- 
 PANY FOK THE Appointment of Com- 
 missioners TO Examine the Proposed 
 Route 
 
 OF 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA 
 AND WESTERN RAILWAY COM- 
 PANY, IN THE County of Erie, New 
 York State, and the Route to wiiicir 
 IT IS Proposed to Alter the Same. 
 
 177 
 
 Messrs. Speague, Milbuen & Sprague, 
 Attorneys for the Petitioner, The New York, Lake Erie 
 and Western Railroad Company. 
 
 Messrs. Bowen, Rogers & Locke, 
 Attorneys for the Respondent, The Lackawanna Railway 
 
 /-I I to 
 
 Company. 
 
 The commissioners met in pursuance of the order of 
 the court, July 13th, at 10 o'clock A. M., and took the 
 oath required by the statute. The parties, together with 
 the commissioners, proceeded to view the premises in 
 question. 
 
 James D. Hawkes, sworn on behalf of the petitioner, 
 and examined by Mr. McMillan, testified as follows : ^j,j 
 
 Q. Mr. Hawkes, where do you reside ? 
 
 A. Painesville, Ohio. 
 
 Q. You are one of the assistant engineers of the Lake 
 ^hore and Michigan Southern Railway Company, are 
 you not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have been employed in capacity of engineer 
 on that road for how long ? 
 
 A. About twelve years. 
 
46 
 
 180 Q. You formerly resided at BuiFalo ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You are familiar with all of tlie Lake Shore tracks 
 and crossings in this city, are yon not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The chief engineer of the company is whom ? 
 
 A. L. H. Clark. 
 
 Q. And he is confined to his house at the present 
 time ? 
 
 181 A. I so understand ; he was when I left Cleveland. 
 Q. The Lake Shore line extends from where to 
 
 where ? 
 
 A. From Buffalo to Chicago, and branches to De- 
 troit, Jackson, Kalamazoo, Grand Rai)ids, Oil City, and 
 other places. 
 
 Q. Are there any other places where there are 
 branches ? 
 
 A. This is a map showing the Lake Shore road ; the 
 ^"^ blue line on this map shows the Lake Shore Railroad 
 Company's tracks from Chicago to Buffalo, and the vari- 
 ous branches in blue owned and operated by the Lake 
 Shore road, and the connecting lines in red. 
 
 Q. This is a correct map showing their connections 
 as they now exist ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. McMillan : 1 desire to offer this map in evidence, 
 and have it marked " Petitioner's Exhibit No. 1." Map 
 received in evidence and so marked. 
 
 Q. Have you examined the map of the proposed 
 crossing by the Lackawanna Company of the Lake Shore 
 tracks in the first and thirteenth wards ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you are familiar "with the proposed change 
 of the route as proposed by the Lake Shore Railway 
 Company and by the Erie Railway Company ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Hawkes.J 47 
 
 Q. Will jou look at that map and see if it is a cor- ] §4 
 rect representation of that portion of the route of the 
 Lackawanna Company, and also of the Lake Shore Com- 
 pany and the Erie Company ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; this correctly represents the situation. 
 
 Mr. McMillan : I offer in evidence this map, being the 
 one attached to the petition in this proceeding, which 
 has been identified and proved by Mr. Hawkes as a cor- 
 rect map of the location and crossing by the proposed 
 routes and changed routes, and ask to have it marked 185 
 " Petitioner's Exhibit No. 2." Map received in evidence 
 and so marked. 
 
 Q. I show you another map showing the point where 
 the proposed road crosses the tracks of the Erie Com- 
 pany, and also tiie tracks of the Lake Shore C'ompany, 
 on a large scale. Have you examined this map, Mr. 
 Hawkes ? 
 
 A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. Is that a correct representation of the location, ^^^ 
 and of such crossings ? 
 
 A. It is. 
 
 Q. These dark lines represent the two tracks as they 
 are usually located, ou each side of the center-line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I understood from their engineer they 
 were building a double-track road. 
 
 Q. The portions of the land colored yellow belong 
 to the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway 
 Company ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that colored red belongs to the New York, 
 Lake Erie and Western Railway Company ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. McMillan : I offer this map in evidence, and ask 
 to have it marked " Petitioner's Exhibit No. 3." 
 
 Map received in evidence and so marked. 
 
48 
 
 188 Q- What is the condition of the street marked on 
 this map " Sandusky street? " 
 
 A. It is not open, and there are no indications of a 
 street on the ground ; it is neither fenced, nor worked, 
 nor traveled. 
 
 Q. It is substantially a common ? 
 
 A. It is a pasture lot, used for pasturing cattle. 
 That is, as far as this portion of it is concerned, east of 
 the Lake Shore tracks. 
 181) Q. What do the blue lines represent? 
 
 A. The blue lines on this map represent the Lake 
 Sliore rails ; the red lines the rails of the Erie track. 
 
 Q. What is the length of the main line of the Lake 
 Shore and Michigan Southern Railway Company from 
 Buffalo to Chicago ? 
 
 A. Five hundred and forty miles. 
 
 Q. And about what is the length of the branches, the 
 combined length? 
 
 A. About 460. It gives us about a thousand miles 
 of road. 
 
 Q Now, the Lake Shore road lias railroad connec- 
 tions with the railroads centering at all of the cities 
 along this line, has it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On all of the railroads coming into Cleveland ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Coming into Toledo? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Coming into Detroit ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Coming into Gj-and Rapids ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And coming into Chicago? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. Dunkirk, Brocton, Erie, Grirard, Ash- 
 tabula, Paynesville, and so on, 
 
 191 
 
Hawkes.j 49 
 
 Q. There are railroad connections at all of those jgg 
 places you have named ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And all of the through freight and passenger 
 traffic that is carried over the Lake Shore Railway 
 passes over the point indicated on this map where the 
 Lackawanna proposes to cross ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Locke: All- through business passes 
 over every point of the road, does it not ? 193 
 
 A. No, sir. In sevei-al places we nave two tracks, 
 and part of the through business goes one way, and part 
 the other. 
 
 Q. Mr. McMillan, resuming: But all- of that busi- 
 ness coming to the city of Buffalo would pass over the 
 point indicated on this map where the Lackawanna 
 Company proposed to cross, would it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The Lake Shore Company has two main tracks '^* 
 at this point, have they not ? 
 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And those are the tracks upon which the through 
 business, freight and passenger, is done? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All freight and passenger traffic leaving Buffalo 
 and going west on the Lake Shore road, passes over this 
 point where they propose to cross? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, whether it is through business or local, 
 all business for the West passes over this point. 
 
 Q. The company has no other line except this one 
 leading into or from the city of Buffalo, has it? 
 
 A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you examined the various connections in 
 detail down in this locality, as to the location of the 
 frogs and switches and various connections ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
50 
 
 196 Q- J"st examine this map, Exliibit "No. 3," and see 
 if that correctly represents it ? 
 
 A. This map marked " No. 3 " exliibits the switches, 
 frogs and tracks as they are now on the ground, with 
 one exception. Tliere is one Erie track here that is now 
 in process of construction, that is shown by red lines 
 here. That is not quite finished. It is now being 
 built, and will probably be finished within a day or two. 
 
 Q. When was the building of a double track there, 
 
 197 or what you call this southerly track, by the Erie Com- 
 pany determined upon ? 
 
 A. Well, I couldn't say exactly, though my under- 
 standing was that it was determined on last fall. 
 
 Q. Is this building of a double track incident to the 
 change of the gauge of the Erie Railway Company, to 
 allow 01 the direct transfer of cars at that point between 
 the two roads ? 
 
 A. Well, I couldn't I'eally give 3'ou a history of that. 
 
 Q. But you know that the matter was under consid- 
 eration, and that that change was projected as early as 
 last year i 
 
 A. Last fall is my understanding' of the time they 
 finally decided upon it. 
 
 G7-0SS examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. How far do your duties with the Lake Shore road 
 
 affect that road ; between what points ? 
 
 199 A. Between Toledo and Buffalo and branches. 
 
 Q. Did you make these maps? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you make any of them? 
 
 A. I made part of this map, ''No. 1." 
 
 Q. What part of it ? 
 
 A. The part from Buffalo to Erie. 
 
 Q. Who made the rest of it? 
 
Hawkes x] 51 
 
 A. Tlie rest of it was made in Cloveland, in the 2y0 
 chief engineer's ofti(!e. 
 
 Q. Is it a printed map? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; it is printed from a survey that I made 
 from ]3uffalo to Erie. 
 
 Q. Do yon know, personally, that the map is accu- 
 rate? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have yon been all over it? 
 
 A. I have been all over all the tracks 'shown here;-Ul 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you know that it is accurate? 
 
 A. I have every reason to suppose it is. 
 
 Q. For the wliole thousand miles? 
 
 A. I have every reason to suppose, from observation, 
 that it is. 
 
 Q. You don't know personally, do you? 
 
 A. Well, not west of Toledo. 
 
 Q. Have yon taken any measurements down here on 
 map " No. 3 " ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. This through business that you talk of, that passes 
 over every point between Buffalo and Hamburgh, does 
 it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Just as much as it does over this point? 
 
 A. No, sir; it passes several times over this point. 
 
 Q. I say, the through business passes over every 
 point between here and Hamburgh, of yonr road? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, did you prepare map " No. 2 " ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have anything to do with it ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you prepared to explain it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
52 
 
 304 Q. Will you tell me, on the profile of the altered 
 route, what will be the grade of the Lackawanua road 
 above the Lake Shore Railroad ? 
 
 A, Do you mean the elevation above the Lake 
 Shore Railroad ? 
 
 Q. What will be the elevation of the Lackawanna 
 Railroad above the Lake Shore Railroad on the altered 
 line? 
 
 A. Taking it from the map, it will be twenty-live 
 
 205 feet and fonr-tenths above the tie. 
 
 Q. Now, is that to tlie iron of the Lackawanna i-oad, 
 or to the sub-grade of the Lackawanna road ? 
 
 A. Well, it is enough to go to the iron of the Lacka- 
 wanna road. 
 
 Q. How does that profile show it ? 
 
 A. It does not appear here as to whether it is to the 
 iron or to the top of the tie. It is the top of the tie of 
 Lake Shore road to some point on the Lackawanna 
 
 206 j.oa(j_ It ig qq); specified, but there is suflicieut room to 
 go from the top of the tie to the top of the iron of the 
 Lackawanna road. 
 
 Q. For how long distance does that map change the 
 elevation of the Lackawanna route ? 
 
 A. Eight thousand nine hundred and fifty-four feet. 
 
 Q. Is that on one route, or more than one ? 
 
 A. That is on the line marked "A." 
 
 Q. How far does it change it on the line " B " ? 
 
 A. Four thousand five hundred and forty feet, taking 
 the figures on this map. It is 4,542 feet on section '' B." 
 
 Q. Now, how much do the two together make?" 
 
 A. Thirteen thousand four hundred and ninety-six 
 feet. 
 
 Q. Have you been over all the land marked and 
 designated on map 2 ? 
 
 A. Do you mean the Lackawanna route? 
 
 Q. Yes, so far aa it is marked on map 2. 
 
Hawkes x] 53 
 
 A. Well, 110, not entirely : I did not go on the land 208 
 south of the Buffalo Creek. 
 
 Q. You have been from Buffalo Creek how far west? 
 
 A. From Buffalo Creek to the Lake Shore road, and 
 west of there. 
 
 Q. How far west have you been ? 
 
 A. Well, as far west as Fitzgerald street, where we 
 commanded a view of the commons to Hamburgh street. 
 
 Q. Look at your profile and see if you cannot tell 
 how far that elevation is from your railroad to a definite 209 
 point on the Lackawanna road. Does it not say "sub- 
 grade " ? 
 
 A. I don't see any " sub " here. I see the grade 
 several times, but the word " sub " is not used. There 
 is no " sub " on the map at all. 
 
 Q. Does it not say "sub-grade" right over the 
 Buffalo Creek? 
 
 A. No, it don't on this map. It don't say "sub" 
 over the Buffalo Creek here that I can see. ^■'-^ 
 
 Q. Will you give us the elevation of the altered line 
 at Hamburgh street, above the street grade ? 
 
 A. At a point marked "Hamburgh St." it is about 
 twenty-one and one-half feet. 
 
 Q. Now, go on to Alabama street? 
 
 A. Alabama street does not show on the profile, but 
 we can put it on very nearly. About seventeen feet is 
 the elevation of tlie Lackawanna road at that point. 
 
 Q. Now, go to Louisiana street? 
 
 A. It strikes grade at Louisiana street; it strikes 
 there the grade of the Lackawanna road. 
 
 Q. See if that is so ? 
 
 A. Why, it is drawn so. 
 
 Q. Well, see if it is so ? 
 
 A. There is Louisiana street on that line, anfl on this 
 line, and the two tilings are synonymous terms so far as 
 this map is concerned. 
 
54 
 
 2,2 Q- Don't that profile at Louisiana street show the 
 necessity of an excavation some three or four feet? 
 
 A. 1 don't recognize the fact that this map shows 
 anytliiug at Louisiana street at all on any jjjrofile. There 
 is Louisiana street, and this map shows at station No. 
 150, and it is not quite to Louisiana street ; at station No. 
 150 it apparently strikes the grade of the Lackawanna 
 Company. The profile of line " A," as shown here, 
 shows merely to 150, and Louisiana street is still beyond. 
 
 313 Q. Does station 150 bring you down to the grade of 
 the Lackawanna road on its located route — its proposed 
 route ? 
 
 A. That would be my understanding of the intention 
 of the map ; 150, I should take it, was the intended point 
 of meeting their grade. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether any actual elevations have 
 been taken with regard to the grades of those streets ? 
 
 A. I don't know, sir. 
 
 314 Q. Does map No. 3 show the Lake Shore switches 
 and frogs as they are now, or as they have been in some 
 past time? 
 
 A. Well, I should say that it showed them as they 
 are now, it shows the situation just as it is now on the 
 ground. 
 
 Q. Have you any map showing their situation on the 
 nineteenth day of May ? 
 
 A. Well, no, not that I know of; I presume we have 
 such a map in Cleveland. 
 
 Q. Did you have anything to do with preparing this 
 petition ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any experience on any other 
 roads except the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How wide should the base of an embankment be 
 
Hawl<es xj 55 
 
 that carries tracks — thirty-five feet high with double ^16 
 tracks ? 
 
 A. Auj' specified distance apart. 
 
 Q. As they are usually built ? 
 
 A. There is not any usual custom. 
 
 Q. Say thirteen feet apart from center to center ; 
 an earth embankment? 
 
 A. And what is the width of your embankment on 
 top? 
 
 Q. Wide enough for two tracks? 217 
 
 A, That won't do. 
 
 Q. It will do ; can you answer the question ? If not, 
 say you cannot. 
 
 A. There is no usual custom of making an embank- 
 ment at any distance on top ; if you mean as we build it 
 on the Lake Shore line, I will tell you. 
 
 Q. I mean how large would be the base of an em- 
 bankment thirty-five high, sufiiciently wide at the top to 
 allow two railroad tracks to be constructed and oper- ° 
 ated properly and conveniently ? 
 
 A. Well, now the embankment at the top has got to 
 be of a certain width ; of course you know what width 
 you mean, because you mean an embankment these 
 folks would build. 
 
 Q. I mean, take any first-class railroad ? 
 
 A. Take the Lake Shore road, our embankment, 
 
 with our tracks seven feet apart, and five feet for each 
 
 . . 219 
 
 track, and six feet for the rail outside to the top of" 
 
 the slope, would be twenty-nine feet; that is wider on 
 top than these gentlemen probably build an embank- 
 ment ; however, we will take twenty-nine feet at the top, 
 and thirty-five feet high. 
 
 Q. Take twenty-nine feet on top, and thirty-five feet 
 high, how wide would it be at the base ? 
 
 A. It is one hundred and thirty-four, as we build it 
 
56 
 
 220 on the Lake Shore, with a slope of one and one-half to 
 one. 
 
 Q. Then it would be impossible for the Lackawanna 
 road to bnild an eartliern embankment on tlie line as 
 they have located, with the right of way that yon have 
 given them, wouldn't it? 
 
 A. No, sir, they wouldn't have to build it thirty-five 
 feet high. 
 
 Q. Are not parts of it thirty-five feet higli? 
 321 A. I think not. 
 
 Q. How high is it? 
 
 A. You wouldn't very likely build an embankment 
 the highest point on the Lake Shore road right of 
 way. 
 
 Q. Take the highest point off from the Lake Shore 
 road? 
 
 A. Well, that would show here in the neighborhood 
 of thirty-one feet. 
 ^^^ Q. Now, take that, how much right of way would be 
 required ? I mean to build a first-class railroad. I 
 want to know how wide the embankment would be at 
 the base in order to build, in a first-class manner, two 
 tracks on an embankment thirty-one feet high ? 
 
 A. One hundred and twenty feet, taking twenty- 
 seven feet wide on top, and thirty-one feet embankment, 
 slope of one and one-half to one. 
 
 Q. Your map shows a right of way of only how 
 much ? 
 
 A. Well, it shows one hundred feet I'ight of way, as 
 I understand it. 
 
 Q. Ninety-nine feet, is it not ? 
 
 Well, possibly it is ninety-nine feet. 
 
 And part of it was how much; part of it was 
 
 Over the Lake Shore and Erie tracks it is fifty 
 
Hawkes xj 57 
 
 Q. Now, how far does that fifty feet extend ? 224 
 
 A. It extends over the Lake Shore tracks and the 
 Erie traclis and the connections between. 
 
 Q. For what distance? 
 
 A. Measured on the center line it would be about 
 seven luindi'ed and fifty feet distance. 
 
 Q. And on that seven hundred and fifty feet you 
 only give us fifty feet of land? 
 
 A. Yes, fifty feet. 
 
 Q. Is that enough to build two tracks upon ? 235 
 
 A. Oh, y-es. 
 
 Q. At that elevation ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How would you have to build it ? 
 
 A. Trestle or bridges. 
 
 Q. You cannot make an earthern embankment ? 
 
 A. Oh, no, you cannot, anyway, without covering up 
 the Lake Shoi-e tracks. 
 
 Q. How wide are your Lake Shore tracks there, '^'^^ 
 proper ? 
 
 A. They are some seventeen or eighteen feet, I be- 
 lieve, on that line, and with the slope of ninety-three 
 feet, as you have been figuring on, it would make the 
 space to be allowed for the Lake Shore road of some 
 one hundred and ten feet. 
 
 Q. Now, yon have been making some changes down 
 there quite I'ecently, have you not, in tracks ? ^ 
 
 A. Yes, S11-. 
 
 Q. Did you commence witliin ten days to do it? 
 
 A. No, I think not. 
 
 Q. You have commenced since the first of July ? 
 
 A. No, I think not. 
 
 Q. When did you commence? 
 
 A. I think probably in June, we commenced before 
 the Erie folks did, in order to let them put their crossing 
 in, we had to move some switches. 
 
58 
 
 338 Q. How long had / jur roa J been operated as it was 
 on the nineteenth day of May, at that point? 
 
 A. About two years. 
 
 Q. What was the distance between the switch rails 
 as tiiey stood on the nineteenth of May? 
 
 A. I couldn't tell you exactly. 
 
 Q. Those have been changed, have they not, since 
 the 19th of May ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I have explained once that we were 
 239 making some changes there to carr}' out an arrangement 
 with the Erie road, and it was necessary to change cer- 
 tain switches there, and we did it. 
 
 Q. Yon say you have been connected with the road 
 twelve years ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you tell when the Lake Shore road acquired 
 the lot to the east of its track there ? 
 
 A. Not exactly. It was previous to my connection 
 ^^^ with the road. 
 
 Q. Then the Lake Shore has owned lot 185 for more 
 than twelve years ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By Com. Clark : Which lot is that : 
 
 A. That is the lot marked blue on "Exhibit No. 2." 
 
 Q. By Mr. Lock, resuming : It owns a large amount 
 of land as marked in yellow on Exhibit No. 3 here on 
 the north side of the transfer house, does it not? 
 
 A. It owns all the land marked in yellow there, 
 besides a large amount not marked yellow. 
 
 Q. Now, would there be any practical difficulty in 
 making transfer tracks, putting transfer tracks on the 
 north side of the freight house — of the transfer house ? 
 
 A. No, sir. That is what this land was bought for, 
 was for tracks, to give us facilities for transferring 
 on the north side and south side. 
 
 Q. When was that bought? 
 
Hawkes.J 69 
 
 A. Well, I don't know when that was ; previous to 333 
 twelve years ago. 
 
 Q. There is room for an abundance of tracks, is there 
 not? 
 
 A. Well, tiiere is room for some tracks there. 
 
 Q. How many, twenty ? 
 
 A. Yon can't use twenty tracks. 
 
 Q. Five ? 
 
 A. There is room for five tracks there. 
 
 Q. Room for all you want? 233 
 
 A. All we want at that point, yes, sir; but in order 
 to make transfer tracks of them they would have to con- 
 nect with the Erie road down here (witness indicates)) 
 which is not practicable without their buying right of 
 way. 
 
 Be-direct examination, by Mr. Greene : 
 
 Q. Referring to the first map, you say, in answer to 
 the counsel, you know nothing about its correctness west 
 of Toledo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You mean by that from personal measurement? 
 
 A. I mean by that from personal measurement ? 
 
 Q. You have a general knowledge ; have been fre- 
 quently over the road, have you not, in that locality ? 
 
 A. Oh, yes ; I have been over the road west of 
 Toledo. 335 
 
 Q. And while you cannot say as to its strict accuracy, 
 it does truthfully represent generally the situation of the 
 lands west of Toledo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, so far as I know. 
 
 Q. The lines do run to all the points as indicated 
 there, and substantially as indicated ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I believe you said before that it connected with 
 all the other railroads which ai-e there marked in red ? 
 
60 
 
 336 A- Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At tlie various ijoints ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, and forne others which are not marked 
 liere, because tiiis map was made in 1875. Since that 
 time we have many new connections. 
 
 Q. In speaking of the embankment, you gave a slope 
 of one and one-half to one. The requisite slope is 
 determined to some extent by the material with which 
 the embankment is made, is it not ? 
 237 A. Yes, sir ; somewhat. 
 
 Q. And the embankments that you have spoken of 
 are such as are used upon the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But not universally used ? 
 
 A. No. There are modifications made to s\iit the 
 special material. 
 
 Q. What would you say as to the practicability of 
 constructing the embankment at the points to which the 
 ■^'''^ question referred, with a base of one hundred feet; 
 ninety-nine feet, with proper material, making a suiR- 
 cient embankment to accommodate two tracks ; along 
 this line, taking the profile as it is ? 
 
 A. Well, tliLre would be no difiicultj' in making an 
 embankment on the right of way as shown there, except 
 close to the Lake Shore road, probably for a few hundred 
 feet close to the Lake Shore road. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't it be practicable there to trestle ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And better than an embankment, even if you had 
 a sufficient right of way? 
 
 A. It would be practicable to trestle, or practicable to 
 protect the base with masonry. A retaining wall, a ver- 
 tical retaining wall, to protect the bottom of the embank- 
 ment, would admit of an embankment being constructed 
 at that point. 
 
tiawkes.j 6l 
 
 Q. I believe yon said the right of way over the track, 940 
 as proposed by the petitioners, is Hfty feet in vs^idth ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that ample for all purposes necessary to con- 
 struct a proper trestle? 
 
 A. A great plenty. 
 
 Q. You were asked in reference to some recent alter- 
 ations. When were those changes, about when were 
 they determined upon ? 
 
 A. Well, 1 understand the changes at that point in 241 
 our tracks were made necessary by an arrangement with 
 the Erie folks last fall, by which they put in a second 
 tiack across our track at that point, which made it neces- 
 sary for us to move a switch. 
 
 Q. Do you mean an extra track westerly of the then 
 existing track ? - 
 
 A. To the south of the then existing tract. In 
 moving that switch to give them room, we substituted 
 for the old switch our standard steel switch. That is put ^** 
 in as all our switches are on the road, and it joins their 
 crossing frogs, and we moved it just as little as possible 
 in order to give them room for their crossing frogs ; and 
 we joined their crossing frog. From the standard it runs to 
 the frog, and from the frog in the track to the next switch. 
 That is our standard manner of putting in the switches. 
 Then we start out from the second switch after we leave 
 the cross-over, with just as little room as is necessary to , 
 put in the switch rails and put in another switch. The 
 standard has recently been adopted, on the Lake Shore 
 rjad, of steel switches and steel frogs of a certain dis- 
 tance between switches and frogs. 
 
 Q. And when was this arrangement made in refer- 
 ence to their putting in the additional crossing ? 
 
 A. Last fall, as I have already stated. 
 
 Q. And in carrying out that work as then contem- 
 plated all the changes that have recently been made to 
 whif.h were render ed necessary ? 
 
6S 
 
 244. A. They were rendered necessary and were made by 
 onr road-master without any instructions from anybody 
 else. 
 
 Q. Without reference or regard to the proposed loca- 
 tion of the Delaware and Lackawanna? 
 
 A. No, sir ; not supposing they would go within a 
 mile of where the proposed road would. 
 
 Q. That was done just as it would be if tliis Dela- 
 ware and Lackawanna crossing had never been contem- 
 245 plated ? 
 
 A. Just exactly ; I do not suppose a man there knew 
 where that road was ; I didn't until this week, and the 
 section foreman who did tiie work had no interest in it. 
 
 Q. The high embankment suggested by counsel, 
 might well be avoided and trestle- -work used in its stead 
 in carrying this track up as proposed ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there a similar trestle where the Erie crosses 
 S'iG the Central ? 
 
 A. There is a trestle where the Erie crosses the Cen- 
 tral ; in fact I never knew a track to cross another in a 
 city with an embankment as high as this would be ; a 
 trestle would be the ordinary manner. 
 
 lie- cross examination ; 
 
 Q. How much trestle-work have you on the Lake 
 
 Shore road between here and Cleveland ? 
 247 
 
 A. We have very little trestle-work. 
 
 Q. Have you any ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long at any one place ? 
 
 A. We have got two trestles on different points out 
 about a mile beyond where we are. 
 
 Q. How long are they ? 
 
 A. One is in the neighborhood of a hundred and the 
 other in the neighborhood of two hundred feet. 
 
Hawkes xj 63 
 
 Q. How high are they ? j^^t, 
 
 A. Some eiglit or ten feet. 
 
 Q. Have you any trestles there thirty feet high on 
 the Lake Shore road between here and Cleveland ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think such things are desirable in the 
 construction of a railroad, higli trestles thirty feet higli ? 
 
 A. No, not as desirable as constructing a road on 
 level ground. 
 
 Q. They are not desirable in the eyes of an engineer? 249 
 
 A. No, sir; a bridge is not desirable, nor a culvert, 
 nothing desirable but level ground. 
 
 Q. You think a trestle is as desirable as a bridge or 
 culvert ? 
 
 A. Do you mean on this proposed line ? 
 
 Q. 1 mean on a railroad generally, without regard to 
 this proposed line ; you favor trestles, do you ? 
 
 A. Well, it is a good deal the fashion now to build 
 trestles instead of bridges. ■*^" 
 
 Q. You favor them, do you, as an engineer? 
 
 A. Not over embankments. 
 
 Q. You think embankments are quite as good as 
 trertles ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; where the question of cost has to be con- 
 sidered. 
 
 Q. You say you don't know any place where an em- 
 bankment has been built with a view of getting an over- ^ 
 head crossing thirty-five feet high ? 
 
 A. I said in a city. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any over-head crossing thirty- 
 five feet high in a city ? 
 
 A. I don't know how high the Erie crossing is ; I 
 should think that was nearly that. 
 
 Q. Would that be your best judgment? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I should think it would be tliirty to 
 thirty-five feet. 
 
64 
 
 )i[>2 Q- -^^ y" know whether they are proposing to till 
 up that trestle or not ? 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. From whom did you hear of the proposition on 
 the part of the Erie to put in that new south track ; 
 where did you get youi' information about that last fall ? 
 
 A. I didn't say I got any information about it last 
 tall. 
 
 Q. Had you heard of it last fall ? 
 253 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you first hear that they proposed to put 
 in a new south track there ? 
 
 A. Well, I presume three or four weeks ago was the 
 first information I had of it. 
 
 Q. Since the ninteenth of May ? 
 
 A. I should presume so. 
 
 Q. Would you, as an engineer, be pei'fectly content 
 with ninety-nine feet of land to build an embankment 
 thirty-one feet high upon ? 
 
 A. For a double track road ? 
 
 Q. Yes? 
 
 A. No; I should want a little more land than that. 
 
 Q. You would want 120 feet at least ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You would probably want 150 feet would you 
 not for ditches, and everything of that sort? 
 „.. A. Well, I could get along with 120. 
 
 Q. You know the provision of the railroad law re- 
 quires railroad companies to build ditciies on the side of 
 the track ? 
 
 A. I am not aware of it. 
 
 Q. You did not know that the law required railroad 
 companies to do that ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. By Commissioner McAlpine : When you speak of 
 trestle-work do you allude to wood or iron ? 
 
Hawkes X ] 65 
 
 A. Well, the counsel did not make any distinction 056 
 between wood and iron ; I don't know as he is aware 
 that we build trestle-work of iron, but it is customary 
 now a days to build important trestle-works of iron ; the 
 New York, Chicago and St. Louis road are putting in 
 some important trestles one hundred to two hundred and 
 fifteen feet in height. 
 
 Q. In expressing your opinion of the propriety of 
 using trestle did you have reference to wood or iron 
 trestle ? 25? 
 
 A. Wooden trestle-work; there was nothing brought 
 up about iron at all; in fact iron trestle at this point 
 would have some advantages over an embankment. 
 
 Q. How long would a wooden trestle, such as you 
 contemplate, last? 
 
 A. It would last eight or ten years with some re- 
 pairs. 
 
 Q. What would you say as to the practicability of 
 constructing here an iron trestle ? 
 
 A. It is perfectly feasible. 
 
 Q. And as to its durability ? 
 
 A. I couldn't state, because I am not old enough to 
 know how long iron trestles will last ? 
 
 Q. There has no one lived long enough to demon- 
 strate that? 
 
 A. I would like to hear from some older engineer on 
 
 that point. 2o9 
 
 Q. Would you, as an engineer, say that it would be 
 much more durable than wood ? 
 
 A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. Practically permanent? 
 
 A. We call an iron structure a permanent structure. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Locke: It is part of the general policy 
 of every railroad to have an earth embankment where it 
 can, is it not? 
 
66 
 
 260 -^ • I don't know of any place where they cannot 
 have an eartli embankment. 
 
 Q. They are considered far superior to any kind of 
 trestle, are they not, if they can be constructed where 
 water won't wash them out, and all that sort of thing? 
 
 A. That is perhaps too general a question. 
 
 Q. Isn't an earth embankment better than any iron 
 trestle, provided you can retain it in its place ? 
 
 A. 1 should prefer it, yes sir. If there was no ques- 
 
 261 tion of cost to enter into tlie matter at all, I should pre- 
 fer an earth embankment. 
 
 Q. It makes a better railroad, a safer railroad ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have to watch your iron trestles and your 
 wooden trestles? 
 
 A. No more than we do on all onr large earthen em- 
 bankments. 
 
 Q. You have men appointed to inspect the bridges, 
 263 ^.jjQ aj,g charged with the duty ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, and to inspect the earth embankments. 
 
 Q. You have skilled men to inspect your bridges ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, and also to inspect the earth embank- 
 ments. 
 
 Q. Who are the skilled men to inspect the earth em- 
 bankment at Angola? 
 
 A. I am one of them. 
 
 Q. How often do you inspect that ? 
 
 A. I give it a thorough inspection twice a year, and 
 a casual inspection once or twice a month, perhaps. 
 
 Q. And you go there for the express purpose of in- 
 specting that embankment ? 
 
 A. Twice a year. 
 
 Q. How often are the iron bridges inspected ? 
 
 A. Twice a year by experts. I don't have anythino- 
 to do with that. 
 
 Q. 'It is somebody that ranks you that inspects that? 
 
Hawkes.] 67 
 
 A. No, sir. gg^ 
 
 Q. Somebody beneath you ? 
 
 A. No, sir, a different department. 
 
 Q. An inspector of bridges ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you are willing to swear an earthen em- 
 bankment requires quite as much care as iron trestle? 
 
 A. You used the word " inspection " before. 
 
 Q. Quite as much watching ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 265 
 
 Q. As an iron bridge ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Requires quite as much watching and care as an 
 iron bridge? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 He-direct, by Mr. Greene : In a location like this, in a 
 city, would you not regard an iron trestle as preferable 
 to an embankment in this locality ? 266 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; in this locality I think an iron trestle 
 would be preferable to an embankment. 
 
 Q. You say a trestle is not desirable. Nothing de- 
 sirable but a plain, level base for your road. How as to 
 the comparative desirability or undesii'ability of crossing 
 on a trestle, or crossing at grade, a road that is doing a 
 large amount of business over its tracks? 
 
 A. There is hardly a comparison between the desira- 
 bility of crossing at grade and overhead. The overhead 367 
 crossing interferes not at all with the traffic of the road. 
 
 Q. Were you speaking of the nndesirability of a 
 trestle or a grade crossing ; you say a trestle is not desi- 
 rable ordinarily ; what would you say as to grade cross- 
 ings? 
 
 A. Well, I say they are not desirable. 
 
 Q. Relatively considered, or comparatively ? 
 
 A. Anyways considered. 
 
68 
 
 ^08 Octave Chanute, sworn on belialf of tlie petitioner, 
 and examined by Milburn, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. You are the engineer of the Erie Railway Com- 
 pany ? 
 
 A. I am, sir. 
 
 Q. In charge of the engineering department of that 
 road? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have been an engineer how many years? 
 269 A. About thirty-two j'ears. 
 
 Q. And of that time, how many years have your en- 
 gineering duties been connected with railroads ? 
 
 A. The whole of the time sir, practically. 
 
 Q. That is, you have had charge of all the engineer- 
 ing works and matters connected with the building and 
 operation of railroads ? 
 
 A. With the construction, and to a certain extent, 
 the operation of railroads. 
 '" Q. And all matters connected with railroads? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. Yon have also had quite a large experience in the 
 matter of bridges, have you not ? 
 
 A. I have had some experience in that way, sir. 
 
 Q. You built the Chicago, Burlington and Quiucy 
 bridge 'i 
 
 A. I built the bridge across the Missouri river at 
 
 Kansas City. 
 271 
 
 Q. For how many years have you had charge of the 
 
 engineering department of the Erie Railway? 
 
 A. A little over eight years. 
 
 Q. You are, are you not, well acquainted with all 
 the railroad system connected with the city of Buffalo? 
 
 A. In a general way I am, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Both from observation, and the study of maps 
 and plans? 
 
Chamite.j 69 
 
 A. And from that experience which eight years con- 272 
 nection with the Erie has given me. 
 
 Q. You know the locality where the crossing in 
 question which we are now examining is? 
 
 A. I do. 
 
 Q. That is this locality set forth in these various 
 maps in evidence here ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if yoiir are not particularly well 
 acquainted with both the railroad system at that point, ^'''3 
 and the manner in which the business is conducted at 
 that point? 
 
 A. I am in a general way. 
 
 Q. What is the particular relation between the Lake 
 Sliore and Erie Railways at this point ; I mean now as 
 to the transfer of their business ? 
 
 A. The two railways cross each other at that point, 
 and in connection with that crossing they have their 
 transfer house for the interchange of freight business ' 
 between the two roads. 
 
 Q. At the point of the crossing ? 
 
 A. I mean by that a radius of a few hundred feet. 
 
 Q. The main line of the Erie Railway? 
 
 A. Its main line may be said to extend from Jersey 
 City to Buffalo ; it has other lines, but that is the prin- 
 cipal one upon which the most traffic is done. 
 
 Q. And that traffic is east and west-bound freight to 
 or through Buffalo? 
 
 A. It is. 
 
 Q. The length of the Erie Railway, that line is about 
 what? 
 
 A. The length from Jersey City to Buffalo is four 
 hundred and twenty-two miles. The Erie system con- 
 sists of some nine hundred and seventy-two miles. 
 
 Q. And the great part of that system drains, in a 
 tariff way, into and through Buffalo ? 
 
70 
 
 276 -A-. It does. The largest portion of business which 
 the Erie Railway does is from and to the city of Buffalo. 
 
 Q. At Buffalo the Erie Railway connects — one of the 
 roads with which it interchanges freight is the Lake 
 Shore ; through freight ? 
 
 A. It is. 
 
 Q. And does it not also bring a large alnol^nt of bus- 
 iness which is distant to Buffalo, and take from Buffalo 
 a large amount of business ? 
 
 277 A. It does. 
 
 Q. The Erie is what you might designate an eastern 
 trunk line, and the Lake Shore a western trunk line? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that the two make a freight line from New 
 York to Chicago, and all intermediate points? 
 
 A. They do. 
 
 Q. These tracks which are represented on Exhibit 3, 
 are what particular tracks of the Erie Railway ? 
 
 A. Those tracks which are here designated in red 
 ink are the tracks of the Erie Railway. 
 
 Q. And which of its tracks; passenger or freight? 
 
 A. Freight, exclusively. 
 
 Q. Are they its main freight tracks ? 
 
 A. They are its main freight tracks, for its exchange 
 business with the Lake Shore road, for its lake business, 
 for its grain business, and for a part of its coal track, this 
 being only one of the lines which the Erie has in the city 
 of Buffalo. 
 
 Q. This line breaks away from the main line, enter- 
 ing the city at what point ? 
 
 A. It forks from the passenger line at the crossing of 
 Exchange street, one leg runs down to the lake, passing 
 this point and crossing the Lake Shore road here ; the 
 other runs down parallel with Exchange street to its dis- 
 charge depot. 
 
Chanute.J 71 
 
 Mr. Milburn : I have here a map of Buffalo, which 380 
 I offer in evidence, received, and marked "Exhibit 
 No. 4." 
 
 Q. Starting at Exchange street, at the fork, wliere 
 does this freight line of the Erie go to ? 
 
 A. It goes down in a southwesterly direction to the 
 freight-house and elevator of the Erie Railway, on Buf- 
 falo Creek. 
 
 Q. Starting from Exchange street ? 
 
 A. Starting from Exchange street, it goes in a south- 281 
 westei-ly direction to the freiglit-house and elevator of 
 the Erie Railway on Buffalo Harbor. This proposed 
 crossing with the Lake Shore road is about midway be- 
 tween the points where the two branches of the Erie 
 fork at Exchange street and its terminal freight depot 
 upon Buffalo Harbor, and its elevator. 
 
 Q. You say it is over that line that all the lake busi- 
 ness of the Erie Railway passes ? 
 
 A. It is. '^^''^ 
 
 Q- And I will ask you if the Erie Railway at Buffalo 
 runs in connection with lines of propellers as also a 
 freight line to the west ? 
 
 A. It controls a line of propellers on the lakes with 
 which it exchanges business at its freight-house on the 
 harbor, at the termination of this freight line which I 
 have previously described. 
 
 Q. Then the entire business which the Erie Railway 
 gets at its lake terminus, or carries to it there, its entire 
 freight business, as well as the entire business east and 
 west, which it exchanges with the Lake Shore, passes 
 over this crossing in question ? 
 
 A. It does. 
 
 Q. Can you give us an estimate of the number of 
 cars that pass the point of the proposed crossing of the 
 Lackawanna and the Erie tracks ? 
 
 Q, Will you state, if you please, to the commission- 
 
72 
 
 2S4 ers, the oljjections that occur to your niiiid to a grade 
 crossing of one raih'oad by another, first without any 
 specific reference to this point? 
 
 A. The chief objection is the danger of collision be- 
 tween trains. 
 
 Q. Now, that is one objection, and in your own way, 
 without my following you, will you just make as com- 
 plete a statement on that Subject as you care to make ? 
 A. As to that, I can only say that at an early day, 
 
 ^85 when traflic was small, a number of grade crossings 
 were introduced in the various railways of the country. 
 That experience in the operation of railroads, however, 
 has taught us their exceeding great danger, and that so 
 large a proportion of the accidents which occur upon 
 railroads occur at grade crossings; that all the important 
 lines of the country now are prepared to go to very con- 
 siderable expense in order to avoid them altogether ; 
 tliat we have not, for a number of years past, consented 
 
 *°" to any grade crossings whatever ; that when they have 
 been sought for we have refused to become parties to 
 arrangements which we considered so very dangerous 
 and destructive to life and property ; that we have pre- 
 ferred, in all cases, if they were to be put upon our rail- 
 roads, that they should be forced upon us by a commis- 
 sion, rather than take the responsibilit}' of incurring so 
 great a danger in the operation of our roads. I believe 
 that is the general sentiment of all the railway men in 
 the country. I think that in some countries, in Eng- 
 land, for instance, they are absolutely proliibited by law; 
 that in some of the States they are only consented to 
 under the most strenuous restrictions, and that the chief 
 objection to this proposed crossing is the fact that it is 
 to be a grade. 
 
 Q. Now, continuing on the same line, Mr. Chanute I 
 will ask you if, besides the question of danger, there is 
 not also a serious question of delay in all trains ? 
 
Ctianiite.j 73 
 
 A. There would doubtless be great delay, great in- 288 
 eouvenience from an additional grade crossing at that 
 point; but the chief objection, as I have stated before, 
 is the great danger tliat it would involve. 
 
 Q. Now, taking up this particular crossing, and tak- 
 ing as an assumption in the case to be verified subse- 
 quently, that there pass there at that point over a mill- 
 ion cars in the course of the year, and what then would 
 you say as to this question of delay, also this question of 
 danger; would not tliat be a condition of things making 289 
 the danger more acute with that volume of traffic ? 
 
 A. It would increase, undoubtedly, the operating ex- 
 pense of all the roads participating in that crossing, and 
 it would delay the engines, the trains, the cars, and it 
 would probabl}' cost twice the number of switching en- 
 gines to be required, becanse of the delays that would 
 occur in their waiting for one another to proceed across 
 this point ; but the chief objection, as I stated before, is 390 
 that of the danger of collision. 
 
 Q. Now, to have crossings of one railroad by an- 
 other, it is necessary to have a particular kind of rail? 
 
 A. No, sir ; no particular kind of rail ; it is necessary 
 to have a crossing, a crossing plate, a crossing frog, if 
 you please. 
 
 Q. Is there an element in here of wear and tear on 
 rolhng stock? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; these crossing plates wear out generally 291 
 in about one-fifth the time that the solid rails at other 
 parts of the road do ; and for every blow that they re- 
 ceive they strike one to the rolling stock, so that they 
 undoubtedly wear out rolling stock much faster than the 
 ordinary rail on the main tracks of the road. 
 
 Q. There is a corresponding increase of the wear of 
 the rolling stock just as there is an increase of the cross- 
 ings, as compared with the straight track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
74 
 
 ;^92 Q- Docs it require also an increase of service, in the 
 way of protecting and guarding the crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, in order to work a crossing at all, it is 
 necessarj' that there should l)e watchmen night and day, 
 who should give the signals to prevent collision between 
 the trains. 
 
 Q. Now, taking this volume of business that I have 
 mentioned to you, at this crossing, and the fact that 
 hei'e the Erie crosses the Lake Shore ; that another 
 293 trunk line proposes to cross all the tracks at grade, some 
 ten tracks, what would yon say as to the delays in trains 
 at that point while one of the I'oads has command of the 
 crossing, and especially with reference to its bearing on 
 trains, say on the same division of that railroad ; of the 
 railroads which are waiting? 
 
 A. I should say that it would largely increase" the 
 annual cost of operating. 
 
 Q. What are your general views on the merits of 
 this crossing at grade by the Lackawanna, at a point 
 where a great deal of switching is done, for the purpose 
 of making up and distributing trains between the Erie 
 and the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. I think it ought not to be permitted at all. 
 
 Q. What are the merits, the desirability, propriety . 
 of a grade crossing at this point, where all the trains 
 between the Lake Shore and the Erie Railway's are 
 made up and distributed ? 
 
 A. As to what the result would be, I would say that 
 it would largely increase the operating expense of all 
 the roads, and very largely increase the danger of ac- 
 cident and the hazard of collision. 
 
 Q. In what way would it increase the cost ? 
 
 A. It would first by compelling the stoppage of 
 trains add very considerably to the cost of opei-ating the 
 roads. 
 
 Q. Keeping service idle? 
 
 295 
 
Channte.J 75 
 
 A. Not only in keeping service idle, but in wastinj;; ^90 
 the fuel, and in causing a certain amount of wear and 
 tear to the rails, to the crossings, and to the rolling 
 stock upon the application of the brake in order to 
 bring them to a stop ; so that there would be a waste of 
 time and waste of substance, both, then with respect to 
 the danger of collision ; with the utmost care, with the 
 best appliances, and the best men, we tind that it is im- 
 practicable — impossible, to prevent collisions at cross- 
 ings. Not a year passes that we do not have some "^^"^ 
 bitter experience in that respect, and even though we 
 surround this with every safeguard that ingenuity can 
 take and devise, it is quite certain that at some time an 
 incident of carelessness, a misunderstanding of direction, 
 or an overlooking of an approaching train, will bring 
 about a collision which may result in loss of life and of 
 property. 
 
 Q. By Commissioner McAlpine : Does tlie neces- ^ 
 sary backing of trains at such places add anything to 
 the difSculty or danger, or cost ? 
 
 A. It does, at this point the drilling of trains is 
 carried on for the purpose of switching out cars and 
 delivering them to the other road. It frequently oc- 
 curs that those cars are back of the engine, and that 
 the engineer hasn't a clear sight past his train in shunt- 
 ing and running the cars. 
 
 Q. By counsel resuming : Now, just at this point, ^qc^ 
 where the proposed Lackawanna crossing is, there is a 
 great deal, a very large amount, is there not, Mr. 
 Chanute, of this switching going on, to make up and 
 distribute trains? 
 
 A. There is. 
 
 Q. Take any day when that business is going on, 
 and tlie target is set to allow Lackawanna train or trains 
 to pass, that is, to give it command of the crossing, what 
 
76 
 
 300 is the eifect upon that of all the switching business over 
 that point ? 
 
 A. It must all stop up until the crossing is again 
 clear. 
 
 Q. In the meantime the train hands are necessarily 
 idle, are they not, and the fuel with which the train is 
 run is being consumed to no purpose ? 
 
 A. It is. 
 
 Q. And also is it not a matter of engineering experi- 
 
 301 ence that it is an expensive matter, this continual 
 quitting in such a business, and stopping your trains 
 backwards and forwards in their business ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that all costs us money. 
 
 Q. Is not the economical way to have the busi- 
 ness proceed with as few interruptions as possible? 
 
 A. Undoubtedly. 
 
 Q. If, with a grade crossing there, in busy times, 
 the transfer business of the Erie and Lake Shore has to 
 stop, does not that tend to create a block in the business 
 of the two roads ? 
 
 A. At that point, yes; not necessarily at other 
 points. 
 
 Q. By a commissioner : You mean the Erie and the 
 Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Now, is it not a fact that the 
 entire railway system, we will say, both of the Lake 
 Shore and the Erie, in the city of Buffalo, is dependent 
 in its general carrying on in all parts of the system, 
 working without any serious blocks or stops ? 
 
 A. To a certain extent only. A block at this point 
 need not necessarily interfere with traffic at other points, 
 
 Q. It need not necessarily ; but take it in busy times 
 as these roads have it liere when the western o'rain is 
 going forward, and I will ask you then if it is not a most 
 
Chanute.] 77 
 
 vital question to keep every part of this system here free 304 
 and clear, and in good working order ? 
 
 A. Oh, of conrse. 
 
 Q. And if at that time the continual stoppages im- 
 posed by a new trunk line with a large business, coming 
 over that point at grade would not introduce an element 
 into that business that has never been yet experienced 
 by the two roads, an element of delay, and the element 
 of difficulty ? 
 
 A. I don't think we could quite say that. It would 305 
 intensify the delays and annoyances that already occur 
 by reason of the existing grade crossings, I do not be- 
 lieve we could say it would introduce a new element, 
 however, because that already exists. 
 
 Q. That grade crossing does not facilitate the trans- 
 fer between the two roads ? 
 
 A. But it is an incident of the fact that the tracks 
 are at the same level. If it were possible to do away 
 with this grade crossing, and yet maintain our exchange 
 with the Lake Shore road, we would jump at it in a mo- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. Then to get the idea that I am driving at, take it 
 at times of the year that I know exist in the city of Buf- 
 falo, when the Lake Shore, when the Erie, with the 
 greatest difficulty keep their yards clear and keep their 
 freight moving. If the existence at this point of another 
 grade crossing by a trunk line would not quite largely ^^^ 
 increase the present difficulties ? 
 
 A. It certainly would largely increase the present 
 delays and expense. 
 
 Q. And it is to get at that, that the delay is not only 
 a local matter in the particular freight business that, is 
 carried on here. But that it effects in busy seasons, that 
 it effects the movement of grain, the movement of freight 
 east and west? 
 
 A. It does. I can best perhaps answer that by say- 
 
78 
 
 308 i"g that some years ago I made an estimate of the pos- 
 sible saving in one direction of onr operating line, of the 
 doing away with the complicated system of trades which 
 iiad grown up about tiie city of Buffalo. We are work- 
 ing our traffic with the aid now of some fourteen switch 
 engines, which cost us on an average about ten thousand 
 dollars a year each, and earn no revenue whatever. If 
 we could disentangle our tracks from the various cross- 
 ings and complicatious that they have got into, I esti- 
 
 309 mated that we could do our entire business more com- 
 fortably with six switch engines, thus saving about 
 eighty thousand dollars a year in that one item alone, 
 which is the direct consequence of the complicatio:is of 
 our relations here. 
 
 Q. And crossings? 
 
 A. And crossings. 
 
 Q. Graded crossings? This graded crossing here, as 
 you say, to both the Lake Shore and the Erie will in- 
 alO yolve more switch engines than ever? 
 
 A. It will involve delay to tlie same engines that we 
 have and additional engines. 
 
 Q. Additional engines to do the same amount of 
 work ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now will you describe to us the objections to a 
 
 grade crossing there as they appear from the facts about 
 
 the tracks themselves as shown on this map ? 
 311 ... 
 
 A. It will be seen by inspection of this exhibit num- 
 ber three, that the crossings are here laid across ten 
 tracks. 
 
 By a commissioner : The original line ? 
 
 A. The original line proposed by the New York, 
 Lackawanna and Western road, across ten tracks, and 
 some of those crossings are not feasible or practicable. 
 The first track which is across here coming from the 
 east, the iirst Lake Shore track across coming from the 
 
Ciiamite.j 79 
 
 cast is crossed right over the switch, and one of thesis 
 crossing-plates is going to cut off the corner of one of 
 the frogs, which is not a practicable thing to do. In 
 order to lay that crossing it would be necessary to take 
 up that switch and remove it. The next two tracks or 
 three tracks offer no particular difficulty, but the next 
 two crossings are right across the moving rails of the 
 Lake Shore switches. It is not practical to put a grade 
 crossing across switch rails. That cannot be done. 
 The next crossing is right at the point of the frog be- 313 
 tween the crossing of the Lake Shore track and that of 
 the Erie. And that again would be a scarcely feasible 
 arrangement. Perhaps that would be best understood 
 by examination by the counsel themselves. It would 
 make a very complicated arrangement, which would 
 scarcely work. I would say, however, that it would be 
 possible to re-lay all these tracks so as to make grade 
 
 crossings practical, but the obiection to their use would 
 
 . 314 
 
 remain. 
 
 Q. That is relatively practicable ; that is, it could be 
 done ? 
 
 A. It could be done ; it could not be done at all as 
 they are now. 
 
 By a commissioner : These frogs would have to be 
 removed to some other place ? 
 
 A. They would have to be removed away. 
 
 Q. By counsel resuming : At the point of the pro- g^. 
 posed crossing as made by the Lackawanna, you say 
 they crossed ten tracks ? 
 
 A. They do. 
 
 Q. At the point of the proposed altered route, how 
 many tracks do they cross ? 
 
 A. Seven. 
 
 Q. By a commissioner : The frogs at the switches ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; at that point it would be free from that 
 difficulty. 
 
80 
 
 3;f5 By counsel resuming: Q. What is the diflerence 
 from one center line from the other ? 
 
 A. Measured along the Erie Railway it would be one 
 hundred and forty feet ; measured along the Lake Shore 
 road it would be two hundred and twenty feet between 
 the two lines, the original line and the proposed line. 
 
 Q. The center line of the proposed route and the 
 center line of the proposed alteration ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 317 Q. Now, as one of the points in facilitating the busi- 
 ness at this point would the transfer business be least in- 
 terrupted by having the route of the Lackawanna where 
 it is proposed than as they propose it as being furtlier 
 away from the business points? 
 
 A. Do you mean regarding them both as grade-cross- 
 ings or regarding them as presented ? 
 
 Q. Regarding them just as they are i 
 
 A. Just as they are presented ? 
 ^'^ Q. Yes? 
 
 A. They would be infinitely less interfered with by 
 the proposed line. 
 
 Q. That is by our proposed line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is an over -head crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; considered as a grade-crossing there 
 
 would be less interference by the proposed line than by 
 
 Q the original line granting both routes to be put down as 
 
 grade-crossings, a thing which I am not willing to grant 
 
 at all. 
 
 Q. Up to the last answer you were referring to the 
 graded crossings ? 
 
 A. Up to the last I was referi-ing to the original line 
 as a grade-crossing, and the altered as an over-head 
 crossing. But I say the latter goes over seven crossincrs 
 instead of ten, and would very much less interfere if 
 
Chanute.J 81 
 
 bailt as ap over-head line, and somewhat less if built as 320 
 a gi'aded-liue. 
 
 Q. The greater distance from the yard where this 
 transfer business ia going on would tend to make the 
 proposed crossing the best one, even assuming them both 
 to be at grade ? 
 
 A. It would, together with the fact that it would 
 only cross seven tracks instead of ten, and it would not 
 cross them over switches which would not be practicable 
 to work with crossings over them. 321 
 
 Q. In your experience and from your knowledge of 
 railroads, important railroads, is this a condition of 
 things that is at all usual that a main freight line of a 
 road like the Erie, the main freight and passenger line 
 of a road like tlie Lake Shore, a main freight and pas- 
 senger line of a projected road like the Lackawanna, 
 should all cross each other at grade within that limited 
 area ? 
 
 A. It is not usual, sir; but I am sorry to say that 
 there are several instances of it in this country. 
 
 Q. Is it a usual thing in present railroad construc- 
 tion ? 
 
 A. No, sir; bitter exi^erience lias taught all of them 
 to avoid it. 
 
 Q. Have you examined this map whicli accompanies 
 the petition in this case ? 
 
 A. I have, to a certain extent. „,-.„ 
 
 Q. Have you examined on that map the proposed 
 line or lines of the Lackawanna, and also the proposed 
 alterations of the Erie and Lake Shore? 
 
 A. I have done it to a certain extent, but I cannot 
 say that I am thoroughly familiar with them. 
 
 Q. But you have made an examination of this map 
 just as it is, both with reference to the route or the line, 
 the allignment, and also in reference to its profile ? 
 
82 
 
 324 A- 1^ liave examined them on a map and examined 
 tliem on tlie ground, several times. 
 
 Q. Now, taking the lines as proposed by the Erie 
 and Lake Shore, and I will ask you if those are practica- 
 ble, feasible lines to build and to operate ? 
 
 A. I think so, sir. 
 
 Q. There is nothing in any curves that there are or 
 anything like that which makes the proposed alterations 
 in any manner impracticable ? 
 
 325 A. Nothing. 
 
 Q. And does your answer cover not only the matter 
 of the allignment but also the matter of the elevation, 
 grade of the alterations ? 
 
 A. There is nothing impracticable about either of 
 them, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the steepest grade that this altered line 
 has, as proposed by us? 
 
 A. It appears to be sixty-six feet to the mile. 
 
 Q. Have you an acquaintance with the Lackawanna 
 line which would enable you to state as to any other 
 grade that they have as steep as that of their own sug- 
 gestion ? 
 
 A. I only know by common report, sir. 
 
 Q. You don't know from au examination of their 
 map ? 
 
 A. Not from my own knowledge ; I think that their 
 „ engineer can tell you that they have grades of 110 feet 
 to the mile. 
 
 Q. Taking that line as it is represented in this eleva- 
 tion, is any engineering question presented of any diffi- 
 culty ? 
 
 A. There would be possibly some choice as to the 
 character of the structures that would be selected to 
 carry out the plans. 
 
 Q. Between an embankment or between a wooden 
 trestle and an iron trestle, is that it ? 
 
Ghanute.J 83 
 
 A. Yes, sir, or how far the embankment shouhl be 3:^8 
 oarriod, how far retaining walls should be carried, if any, 
 and wliere trestled, and where bridge should be substi- 
 tuted. There is nothing whatever in the proposed alter- 
 ation which cannot be built perfectly well. 
 
 Q. Or that present anything but the ordinary ques- 
 tions tliat come up in engineering construction and rail- 
 road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. How best to carry the road at the level 
 indicated with the least possible expenditure of money. '^^9 
 
 Q. You examined that locality there yesterday, did 
 you not ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you say both on the nortii and also on the 
 south side of this crossing the land in that region ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All these blocks running by Fitzgerald and Katli- 
 erine and Sidway and Hamburg streets? 
 
 A. I did. ^'^^ 
 
 Q. And before that you had an acquaintance with that 
 locality ? 
 
 A. I went there and made an examination myself 
 some time before. 
 
 Q. Now will you tell us if this line, built as we pro- 
 pose, seriously or in any way damages that locality beyond 
 what railroads ordinarily damage, in going through any 
 locality ? 331 
 
 A. Well, I think not, sir. 
 
 Q. There would no more result from it than ordina- 
 rily results from the construction of a railroad through 
 any place ? 
 
 A. There would be less, because it would be up in 
 the air, and thus not liable to collision with surface 
 traffic. 
 
 Q. And these streets would all have over-head cross- 
 ings ? 
 
84 
 
 332 A. Not all of them; a certain number of them 
 would. 
 
 Q. At present, as the line comes through, all these 
 streets would be graded crossings? 
 
 A. They would. 
 
 Q. They would be crossed at grade ? 
 
 A. They would. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Locke : I understood you to say that 
 they would all be over-head crossings ? 
 
 333 A. Not all of them. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Taking any part of 
 this proposed altered line, would the structures involved 
 by our proposed alteration, injure or damage the prop- 
 erty along which the line is laid, any more than a graded 
 line? 
 
 A. I think they would less. 
 
 Q. About what is the distance, can you toll us, be- 
 tween Binghamton and Bufl'alo ? 
 
 A. Some two hundred and three miles, I under- 
 stand, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you give us a rough estimate of how much 
 more line they would have to build in this proposed 
 alteration, if any ? 
 
 A. That you can get from the map. 
 
 Q. This change is a deviation over how much of their 
 line, about two miles? 
 
 A. Oh no, less than that, nine thousand feet, a little 
 
 ODD 
 
 less than two miles; if you add the two lines A and B 
 together it makes a little over two miles. 
 
 Q. Taking line A and B together this deviation ex- 
 tends over about how much line ? 
 
 A. A little less than two miles. The main deviation 
 seems to extend here about nine thousand feet. 
 
 Q. And the main deviation is in the neighborhood of 
 two hundred feet, is it not ; I mean of the route of the 
 allignment ? 
 
Chanute x ] 85 
 
 A. About one hundred and sixty feet, measured at 33^ 
 right angles. 
 
 Q. And that this Hamburg street or Alabama street 
 end of the change the new line, the proposed altered line 
 runs right into their proposed line of the road ? 
 
 A. It does. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if the dangers of a graded crossing 
 are enhanced in snowy and foggy weather ? 
 
 A. They are, sir. 
 
 Q. Materially ? 337 
 
 A. Very materially in foggy weather, and to a cer- 
 tain extent in snowy weather. In the first place, because 
 the signals cannot be seen ; and second, because it is more 
 difficult to stop a train when the rail is slippery. 
 
 Q. How about the effect of snow blockades, such as 
 there are at the city of Buflalo, with all the railroads 
 crossing at this point at grade ; or is that included in your 
 general answer, that the snow increases it 1 
 
 A. Well, the diflticulty of working any -dangerous ^"^° 
 spot on the railroad is of course largely enhanced by 
 bad weather. That is a general answer, and covers the 
 whole case. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. The main passenger depot of the Erie road is on 
 the corner of Michigan and Exchange streets, is it not, 
 in the city of Buffalo ? 
 
 A. It is, sir. 
 
 Q. The main passenger depot of the New York Cen- 
 tral road is west of Michigan street, in the city of 
 Buffalo? 
 
 A. It is, sir. 
 
 Q. You have a grade crossing of the main line of the 
 New York Central with all your passenger trains, have 
 you not ? 
 
 A. We have, sir. 
 
86 
 
 :j^0 Q- You have a grade crossing at tlie point we are 
 talking about here for joiir freight tracl<s ? 
 
 A. We have. 
 
 Q. You have a grade crossing of your road by tlie 
 Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia road, in the city of 
 Buffalo, have you not ? 
 
 A. We have, sir. 
 
 Q. You have a grade crossing of the Erie road by 
 the Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia at Olean, have 
 341 yon not? 
 
 A. We have. 
 
 Q. And you have a grade crossing across the New 
 York Central tracks at Niagara Falls, have you not, by 
 the Erie and International ? 
 
 A. We have. 
 
 Q. You have a grade crossing at the International 
 bridge in the city of Buffalo, have you not ? 
 
 A. We have, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you tell me how many accidents have oc- 
 curred at either of these crossings within the limits of 
 the city of Buffalo, within fifteen years, or since your 
 connection with the road — eight years? 
 
 A. That, I cannot say, bnt I know that accidents 
 have occurred there repeatedly. 
 
 Q. Have you had any otiier accident at any of these 
 crossings except one accident at the Buffalo, New York 
 and Philadelphia road, where your engineer ran sixteen 
 hundred feet and hit a train, at the Philadelphia road ? 
 
 A. We have had one there and two at tiie Interna- 
 tional bridge last year. 
 
 Q. Have you had any at the main line of the New 
 York Central in ten jenra ? 
 
 A. That, I don't know. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard of any since you were con- 
 nected with that road ? 
 
 A. The gentleman behind you says we have, sir. 
 
Cbannte xj 8? 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard of any until this moment, 344 
 at that place ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I cannot say that I have. 
 
 Q. Now, into the New York Central depot run all 
 the trains of the New York Central road, do they not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, they do, all the passenger trains. 
 
 Q. A considerable portion of the time all the trains 
 have run in that have come to Bufl'alo from the Great 
 Western road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 3t5 
 
 Q. And from the Grand Trunk road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, have you had any collisions at the point 
 that we are talking about, that you know of, within eight 
 years ? 
 
 A. I think we have, sir. 
 
 Q. How many ? 
 
 A. That I couldn't say, but I think it is three or four. 
 
 Q. You think you have had three or four in eight ^^^' 
 years ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Anything more than a freight car broken up? 
 
 A. No, sir, because we send nothing but freight cars 
 down there. 
 
 Q. Have you had anything that produced any seri- 
 ous injury down there, have you had a case of loss of 
 life by collision at the point we are talking about ? 
 
 A. That I couldn't say, but 1 will make inquiry and 
 let yon know. 
 
 Q. Now, you were prominent in the laying out of a 
 grade crossing over the New York Central tracks, were 
 you not, to get to the International bridge ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, and it was defeated. 
 
 'Q. When was that ? 
 
 A. It was 1874. 
 
 Q. It was defeated by negotiation was it? 
 
348 -A.. No, F.ir, it was defeated by legal proceedings. 
 
 Q. Yon were sworn in that case, were you not ? 
 
 A. I was. 
 
 Q. Did yon not swear in that case that the risk of 
 the accident was not a serious matter of consideration ? 
 
 A. I don't think I could have put it in that way, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you not swear to that in substance before the 
 commission ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 34:9 Q. You had had a railroad experience of twenty- 
 three or four years in 1874? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You had been connected with a good many roads 
 that had grade crossings ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. During that time probably every road that you 
 had had anything to do with had crossed some other 
 road at grade, or been crossed at grade ? 
 3.iO ^_ Yes, sir, but the grade crossings were put in with- 
 out any thought whatever, we would come to a road and 
 would simply put in a crossing at grade. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that you were not competent 
 to be the chief engineer of a first-class road, in 1874 ? 
 
 A. I was. 
 
 Q. You were competent ? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Q. And a knowledge in regard to a grade crossing is 
 something that an engineer of a first-class road ought to 
 know something about ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And do you think your information has progressed 
 so much since 1874, that you have more light on that 
 subject than you had then ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now you say that the chief thing here is the 
 danger of accidents? 
 
Chauute x] 89 
 
 A. Yes, sir. . 352 
 
 Q. I understand you to emphasize tiiat ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, 1 do. 
 
 Q. Expressing it in percentage, what percent, would 
 you say of tiie reasons against a grade crossing should 
 he attributed to the danger of accidents? 
 
 A. Ninety per cent. 
 
 Q. Then nine-tenths of everything is the danger of 
 accident? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 353 
 
 Q. Now the law requires that every train shall stop 
 at a railroad crossing, doesn't it? 
 
 A. No, sir, it does not. 
 
 Q. It does not require it ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You are confident that the statute does not require 
 every road at crossings to stop ? 
 
 A. I am. 
 
 354 
 Q. A regulation of that kind is very readily adopted, " 
 
 is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now is the danger of accidents very much less- 
 ened in case trains do stop before they approach a 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. I think it is. 
 
 Q. Is it not practically eliminated? 
 
 A. No, sir. g-g 
 
 Q. It is not? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. If both trains stop before they come to the cross- 
 ing and wait for the target, why should an accident occur ? 
 
 A. Because men disregard signals. 
 
 Q. It is the fallibility of human nature ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now take the case at bar here, do your trains 
 
90 
 
 356 8t<jp at that crossing ; are they ordered to stop at that 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. I believe they do. 
 
 Q. Now assnming that the- Lake Shore trains have 
 to stop before they come to that crossing, owing to the 
 manner in which their road is rnn, and your trains 
 stopped there already, and assnming that the Lacka- 
 wanna trains should all stop before they came to the 
 crossing, do you not think that the danger of accident 
 
 357 would be very mucli lessened if they did not stop ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it would. 
 
 Q. Or in ease either of them failed to stop ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it would. 
 
 Q. Now if you were going to have a crossing of your 
 road you would consider that the question of the stop- 
 ping of your trains at that crossing was a material ele- 
 ment in the cause, wouldn't you? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 ^ Q. The delays consequent to stopping are a very im- 
 
 portant part of the expense ? 
 
 A. They are. 
 
 Q. So that if all trains stop])ed already at that very 
 point because of other matters than the Lackawanna 
 crossing, you would not count that element so much, 
 would you? 
 
 A. Not so mucli, no, sir. 
 
 Q. Now is it not a great deal better to have the 
 Lackawanna crossing, if it is to be a grade crossing, at 
 a point where the Lake Shore trains already stop ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And if the Lackawanna is to have a grade cross- 
 ing of tlie Erie freight tracks, it is a great deal better to 
 have that crossing where the Erie freight trains already 
 stop? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Chanute xj 91 
 
 Q. Now there is no practical difficulty in adjusting 350 
 the switches down there at that, point, is there? 
 
 A. Thej can be changed. 
 
 Q. And it is a trifling expense of a few hundred dol- 
 lars ? 
 
 A. It would cost something. 
 
 Q. But it is something that could be readily com- 
 pensated for in money? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know the grade of the Lake Shore road 361 
 from the bridge to this point of crossing? 
 
 A. I do not. 
 
 Q. You know that there is a grade, do you not ? 
 
 A. I know there is a grade, but I don't know what 
 it is. 
 
 Q. Wliat is the ordinary length of a freight train on 
 the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. About fifteen hundred feet. 
 
 Q. Assuming that the bridge is the summit, and that 
 the grade runs down from the bridge to the west, and 
 down from the bridge to the oast, is it not desirable that 
 this point of crossing should be as far east as possible, 
 so that trains can stop all on one side of tlie summit ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Now when would you say that the point of cross- 
 ing on the proposed altered route is better than the 
 point of crossing of the proposed route by the Lacka- „ ,, 
 wanna road, do you not lay out of sight that fact? 
 
 A. No, sir, because the distance of a hundred and 
 forty feet between the two cuts no practical figure in 
 Hmiting the length of train that it is possible to stand 
 between the crossing and the bridge. 
 
 Q. Are you sure of that ? 
 
 A. I am so far as I can be without having measured 
 it. 
 
364 Q. This Lackawanna road is a competitor of the 
 Erie railway, is it not, or promises to be ? 
 
 A. It is. 
 
 Q. And a competing trunk line ? 
 
 A. That is what it claims. 
 
 Q. It is quite as important for the Lackawanna road 
 to have a freight connection with the Lake Shore, which 
 is a western trunk line, as it is that the Erie should have 
 it, is it not ? 
 
 365 A. It is. 
 
 Q. If this trunk line was elevated thirty-five feet 
 above the Lake Shore road, it could have no connection 
 at that point, could it V 
 
 A. Not at that point, but it could at another. 
 
 Q. What other? 
 
 A. There are two or three lines here at either of 
 which it could make a coimection. 
 
 Q. You are also trying to make it an over-head cross- 
 366i,ig there? 
 
 A. Not at all points. 
 
 Q. Isn't the Erie road trying to make the Lacka- 
 wanna cross the Lake Shore, and wherever it touches 
 the Lake Shore go twenty or thirty feet above it ? 
 
 A. There would be no difficulty in making a connec- 
 tion with the Lake Shore road. 
 
 Q. Assuming that it is twelve hundred feet, and only 
 twelve hundred feet, from the Lake Shore bridge over 
 Buffalo River to our proposed point of crossing; you 
 take off 140 and that leaves 1,060 ; a train 1,500 feet 
 long, that would leave 450 feet of the train the other 
 side of the south end of the bridge, wouldn't it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, assuming that it is oidy 1,200 feet from the 
 bridge to our proposed point of crossing, would you not 
 say that was desirable to have that point of crossing; as 
 far cast as possible '{ 
 
Chanute xj 93 
 
 A. That I answer, yes. .i,.o 
 
 Q. And would you not say tliat removing it 140 feet 
 west was undesirable ? 
 
 A. I said that that would cut uo practical figure. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't it in view of the fact that the bridge is 
 so much nearer the road than you supposed ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; because in one case there might be five 
 or six cars on one side of the bridge, and on the other, 
 seven or eight; the longest train on the Lake Shore 
 road would more than till up the space if the figures 309 
 given are correct. 
 
 Q. How long is a car? 
 
 A. Thirty-one feet between the couplings. 
 
 Q. Who made that map number two ? 
 
 A. I think it was made in the office of Mr. Haven, 
 the engineer in charge of the Erie road ; I don't know 
 about this particular copy. 
 
 Q. Look at number two and the other copy and see 
 if they are not identical ; if the maps attached to both 370 
 petitions were made in the same ofiice, from the same 
 tracing ? 
 
 A. They are made from the same tracing. 
 
 Q. And that tracing was prepared in the Erie office 
 by the Erie engineer? 
 
 A. The engineer, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do I understand you to say that a railroad built 
 across land adiacent to the Buflalo Creek road on the 
 
 Or* 1 
 
 west, if built twenty feet high wouldn't injure that ' 
 probably any more than if built four or five feet high ; 
 or would injure it less than if built four or five feet iiigh ? 
 
 A. My answer referred to the land at the crossing, 
 not to tlie land of the Buffalo Creek road. 
 
 Q. I am not talking of the land of the Buffalo Creek 
 road ; look on the map, now, I own from the Buffalo 
 Creek road to that line, and the route as proposed by 
 the Lackawanna road puts that about four feet above the 
 
94 
 
 372 surtRce to whieli I practically, as it happens, must fill 
 my land to make it valuable; it is jnst high enough to 
 get it ont of tlie water; do you mean to say that my 
 land will not be injured any more by the construction 
 of that road four or five feet high tlian it would be if 
 it was constructed twenty-five feet? 
 
 A. I say it would be less injured by building it twenty 
 feet high than by building it four or five feet liigh. 
 Q. Now, you know that if the Lackawanna builds 
 
 373 that road twenty-five feet high, there is nothing in the 
 law whicli I can invoke to prevent that road from mak- 
 ing an earth embankment there, don't you, giving me 
 a crossing ? 
 
 A. They would have to give you crossings. 
 
 Q. But barring that crossing, there is no law I could 
 invoke which would prevent their making an earth em- 
 bankment there twenty feet high across my road ? 
 
 A. That I don't know. 
 
 374 Q. What do you think 7 
 
 A. I don't know what the law is. 
 
 Q. Then you are competent to say whether it would 
 harm me more to have it twenty-five feet high than it 
 would five feet high or not ? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Now, assuming that the law does give me no right 
 
 to prevent them from building a solid embankment, 
 
 which is the case; if a solid embankment is to be built, 
 375 
 
 they to give me one crossmg, is not my land much more 
 
 injured than to have it five feet high, where I could have 
 
 a connection ; I could drive over them at any point I 
 
 saw fit, to make as many grade crossings as I saw fit, 
 
 and wherever I saw fit ? 
 
 A. Stated as you do, it is possible in that particular 
 case you would be more damaged by the earth embank- 
 ment? 
 
 Q. You spoke about the question of curves, you said 
 
Chanuto xj 95 
 
 that there was nothing in the altered route which made 370 
 it any worse than the proposed route, as far as that was 
 concerned ? 
 
 A. I didn't say that, I said there was nothing wliich 
 made it impracticable. 
 
 Q. Which is better, a curve or a tangent? 
 A. A tangent. 
 
 Q. Which is the worst, a common curve or a re- 
 verse curve ? 
 A. A reverse curve. 377 
 
 Q. A reverse curve is a thing to be avoided on a high 
 trestle, is it not, or a high embankment ? 
 A. Yes, sir; if you can. 
 
 Q- By your proposed route you have a reversed 
 curve on a high trestle^ do you not, or on a high em- 
 bankment ? 
 
 A. On line A there is a reverse curve, on line B there 
 is not. 
 Q. How acute is that reverse curve? ^'^^ 
 
 A. I judge it to be about a three degree curve. 
 Q. Is it upon a grade ? 
 A. It is. 
 
 Q. How much of a grade ? 
 A. It is a grade of fifty-two feet to the mile. 
 Q. Does that add to the difficulty of the matter ? 
 A. It adds to the resistance a little. 
 Q. Does not it add very materially to the resistance? 
 A. No, sir. 
 Q. It does not ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then if you were an engineer, going to lay out a 
 road, you would not go to any great endeavors to get rid 
 of a reverse curve on a grade of sixty feet to the mile ? 
 
 A. I would ease ofl" the grade at that point probably, 
 so as to give an equivalent resistance to the resistaiice 
 on a straight line. 
 
96 
 
 38(j Q- You would not give any serious thought to avoid 
 a reverse curve of those degrees on a grade of sixty feet 
 to the mile, and on a liigh trestle ? 
 
 A. No, sir; while I would always get the very best 
 line and very best grade that I uould, I would not hesi- 
 tate to make that arrangement if necessary; I would not 
 hesitate to adopt that arrangement if I thought necessary. 
 
 Q. Now, a considerable portion of that freight that 
 crosses the Lake Shore track is not exchange freight, 
 381 is it? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And about what proportion of your freight cross- 
 ing the Lake Shore track there at that point is exchange 
 freight ? 
 
 A. Without having the figures at hand I could say 
 in a general way that about seventy-five per cent, is 
 freight from the warehouse, the freight-house down on 
 the lake. 
 383 Q. The elevator and the warehouse about seventy- 
 five per cent., in your judgment; now, the freight, that 
 does not at any time go upon the Lake Shore road ex- 
 cept to cross it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, that being so, and the dangers of collision 
 being so imminent all the time, why have you never 
 built an over-head crossing there ? 
 
 A. Because we couldn't very well, sir. 
 ^^^ Q. Why couldn't you ? 
 
 A. We got into a bad arrangement at an early day 
 and we have made changes ever since. 
 
 Q. Would there be any trouble in raising your 
 tracks, you have land enough ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think we shall do it some day. 
 
 Q. All you have got to do is to commence back there 
 and run up over the hill sixty feet high and get over 
 there and land on the other side ? 
 
Chanute x] 97 
 
 A. Very likely that will be the result some day. 334 
 
 Q. And that would eliminate all dangers of" accident? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But you never yet have seen the point where the 
 danger was so imminent as to induce you to do tliat? 
 
 A. Well, we have been talking about it for some 
 time past. 
 
 Q. Who have you talked with about it ? 
 
 A. The officers of the road. 
 
 Q. Will you mention one man to whom you ever 385 
 suggested the idea of having an over-crossing there? 
 
 A. I think I mentioned it to the general superintend- 
 ent, Mr. Boynton. 
 
 Q. When did you mention that ? 
 
 A. I couldn't say. 
 
 Q. Have you within six months ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or a year ? 
 
 A. No, sir. ^^^ 
 
 Q. The importance of an over-head crossing has been 
 growing on you the longer you have been connected with 
 that road, has it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But you have not mentioned it in a year ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you in two years ? 
 
 A. Possibly not, sir ; but to answer your question 
 fully and fairly. 
 
 Q. Do you cross any railroad over-head except the 
 New York Central? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. AVliere ? 
 
 A. Here, across the New Jersey Midland. 
 
 Q. Where? 
 
 A. At Paterson. 
 
 Q. They built lander you, didn't they? 
 
98 
 
 388 A. They built over us. 
 
 Q. I am talking about your crossing any other road 
 over-head except the New York Central? 
 
 A. We cross the Lehigh Valley at Waverly, over- 
 head. 
 
 Q. You were built first, were you not ? 
 
 A. That I don't know. 
 
 Q. How is the grade of the Lehigh Valley at that 
 point ? 
 
 389 A. It is below us. 
 
 Q. Isn't it perfectly level ? 
 
 A. That 1 don't know. 
 
 Q. Do they sink their grade at all to cross you ? 
 
 A. 1 think they do a little. 
 
 Q. How much ? 
 
 A. A few feet. 
 
 Q. Is it five feet to the mile or ten feet to the mile ? 
 
 A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. It is very near level ? 
 
 A. Pretty near. 
 
 Q. Now about how much are you above the Lehigh 
 Valley at that point ; how far is it from their rail to 
 your sub-grade? 
 
 A. I think about twenty-two feet, something like 
 that. 
 
 Q. How much are you above the New York Centi-al 
 .,Q, where you cross them out here on the Erie and Interna- 
 tional line ? 
 
 A. Nineteen feet, I think. 
 
 Q. Would it cross it nineteen feet above their road ? 
 
 A. Nineteen feet in the clear. 
 
 Q. Will you swear why you put us up twenty-five 
 feet over you by this map ? 
 
 A. In order to give sufficient depth to the floor beams 
 and trusses which you would probably want to carry in 
 the bridge. 
 
Chanute x] 99 
 
 Q. You put these up there five feet higher so that 392 
 we could make a bridge ? 
 
 Q. We should be satisfied with twenty feet in the 
 clear. 
 
 Q. Look at the Erie map ? 
 
 A. We should be satisfied with twenty feet in the 
 clear. 
 
 Q. Then why didn't you pnt it so ? 
 
 A. Because you have got to have additional room for 
 floor beams. 393 
 
 Q. Have you got to Iiave four feet for that ? 
 
 A. It depends on the kind of floor you select. 
 
 Q. An ordinary railroad bridge, is it necessary to 
 have four feet ? 
 
 A. Pretty nearly. 
 
 Q. From onr sub-grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To get our floor beams in ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^^^ 
 
 Q. I see on your map here you put your sub-grade 
 twenty-five feet above you, don't you ? 
 
 A. No, sir. That is an error. 
 
 Q. Your map says sub-grade. 
 
 A. That is an error. 
 
 Q. An error in your map ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If that is so, and assuming that it is an error, then ^^^ 
 will you explain— will you show the commission how 
 you connect with us where you leave us ; figure it out 
 yourself on your map, and you show that yon leave our 
 grade eighteen inches from us ? 
 
 A. I say that would be quite sufiicient to put the 
 bottom of their rail at this level. 
 
 Q. But I am talking about what your map says ; 
 taking the map just as it is, doesn't that mean a sub- 
 
loo 
 
 3&6 gi'iicle eigliteen inches below onr i-ail, because yon can see 
 where it comes out very readily ? 
 
 A. Possibly it may. 
 
 Q. Now if that means sub-grade, then you have put 
 the Erie about three feet anyway higher than there was 
 any necessity of our going, have you not, for your good 
 and for ours ? 
 
 A. That grade can be lowered three feet, in my 
 judgment. 
 397 Q. Witliout injury to you? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Q. How much would that give you in the clear then ? 
 
 A. Twenty feet. 
 
 lie-direct examination : 
 
 Q. What kind of crossings does the Erie road Iniild 
 now ? 
 
 A. We are now building a new line of onr road in 
 the vicinity of Jersey City, which is ten miles long. 
 Runs around a bend of the Passaic River and the Jity of 
 Paterson. In building it we crossed the Midland Rail- 
 road, and although we could have saved four months in 
 time, and about seventy thousand dollars in money by 
 having a grade crossing, we have preferred to take the 
 additional time and to spend the additional money rather 
 than to introduce the grade crossing between that road 
 and ours. 
 
 Q. In other words, it comes to it that in the railroad 
 development that there is now in the country, especially 
 in cities, that this question of grade crossings is becom- 
 ing more important than at any other time ? 
 
 A. It is. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many railroads are projected 
 into this city at the present time and filing maps? 
 
 A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know the West Shore is ? 
 
 A. I know the West Shore is. 
 
Otiaiuito] 101 
 
 Q. Do you know the Buffalo, Pittsburg & Western 400 
 is? 
 
 A. I know that it is ; I have lieard of one or two 
 more, I think. 
 
 Q. You liave not examined their maps to know all 
 about their grade crossings ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where the Lackawanna brings its own main line 
 over the main line of the Erie Railway Company, what 
 sort of a crossing do they themselves elect to have there Kjl 
 at William street ? 
 
 A. An over-head crossing, sir. 
 
 Q. Where the main line of the Lackawanna road 
 crosses the junction road of the Erie Railway, on its way 
 to the falls, what sort of a crossing has the Lackawanna 
 chosen there? 
 
 A. An over-head crossing, I understand. 
 
 Q. Where the Lackawanna road crosses the main 
 line on its way to the falls, what sort of a crossing has it "i'''- 
 there ? 
 
 A. I understand it to be an over-head crossing. 
 
 Q. Then wherever their main line for western busi- 
 ness by Niagara River is made out by themselves, in 
 every case they have laid out an over-head crossing for 
 their own main line ? 
 
 A. So I understand, sir. 
 
 Q. Would you tell me what facts have arisen, or 
 what would lead you to the strenuous opinion that you 
 have to-day about grade crossings, or in these times in 
 reference to previous times ? 
 
 A. Well, I have seen the effects of increase of traffic 
 and the dangers which are incurred in operating roads, 
 and the more I have seen the more I have been convinced 
 of the desirability of avoiding grade crossings. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if in all the crossing matters that 
 come up in yonr line to-day with other lines, if that is 
 
102 
 
 iOi not a question of supreme importance in all negotiating 
 to avoid a grade crossing ? 
 
 A. I think so, sir. 
 
 Q. And if that is not the established sentiment of 
 the engineering and railroad people at this time ? 
 
 A. It is, decidedly. 
 
 Q. The volume of business that is passing over all 
 these roads is increasing from year to year, is it not? 
 
 A. It is; in connection with that I desire to make a 
 405 statement to the commissioners, which will explain why 
 my own views have, to a great extent, changed in the 
 past eight years on the subject ; At the time that I tes- 
 tified in the case referred to by the counsel, in 1874, I 
 had just come to the east, after having spent twenty 
 years of my life in building railroads in the west ; there 
 the traffic was light, and grade crossings were not thought 
 objectionable ; business had not yet increased to such an 
 extent as to bring about inevitable accidents which result 
 'i'^C from grade crossings ; and I must confess that during 
 the past seven or eight years that I have spent in the 
 East, and have seen the efifeet of the large volume of 
 traffic which now exists on these roads, and which didn't 
 exist on the western roads with which I was formerly 
 connected, I have been led materially to change my 
 views as to the desirability of grade crossings ; I now 
 think them very much more objectionable than I did 
 seven years ago. 
 "^^"^ Q. Where the Erie railway crosses the N. Y. C. & 
 H. R. R. R., 1 think it is on the way to the Falls, will 
 you please explain what sort of a crossing that is, the 
 trestle, I mean ? 
 
 A. The Erie road is carried across the Central by a 
 bridge upon a trestle-wosk, and a bridge to cross its 
 tracks. 
 
 Q. And how long is that trestle ? 
 
 A. It is about fifteen hundred feet long, I think, on 
 
Chaiiute.] 103 
 
 each side of the bridge ; the bridge itself is a hundred 408 
 feet. 
 
 Q. Then the trestle is iilteeii hundred feet on each 
 side? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if the whole route of the Erie 
 International railway was not changed to obviate a grade 
 crossing in the New York Central near Black Rock ? 
 
 A. It was. 
 
 Q. The entire route of the railway was changed ? 409 
 
 A. Not the entire route. 
 
 Q. No, I mean at that point? 
 
 A. At that point. 
 
 Q. As a matter of engineering, of how much impor- 
 tance is a three degree curve, is that an ordinary curve? 
 
 A. Oh, it is in common use. 
 
 Q. Now, as to access between one part of a lot and 
 another, is a higher grade not preferable in allowing an 
 under crossing ? ^10 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; if carried over a trestle-work. 
 
 Q. On a grade that is only four or five feet, necessa- 
 rily you have to build up to have an over-head crossing 
 from access between two parts of the same land ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon cannot have an under crossing there ? 
 
 A. Not well. 
 
 Q. Now, isn't the entire business that a road like the 
 
 . . 411 
 
 Lake Shore Company do, and the road like the Erie 
 
 Company do, very largely limited by the difficulties in 
 
 matters of exchange and transportation at their termini? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the traffic of all the trunk lines is now 
 limited by their facilities, not by their track. 
 
 Q. That is the fact both in connection with tlie Erie 
 and the Lake Shore at their particular Buffalo termini? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
104 
 
 4L;i Q- One of the main facts in that is the delay and 
 slowness of moving aiid passing their freight along with 
 such terminal facilities as they have? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And any cause which comes up to impose more 
 delay in the making up and distribution of tlieir trains 
 at a terminus like the city of Buffalo is another great 
 cause limiting the working capacity of a large railroad ? 
 
 A. It is. 
 413 Re-direct examination, by Mr. Greene : 
 
 Q. When you speak of an overhead crossing three 
 feet lower ; that that would be satisfactoi'y you refer to 
 the crossing over the Erie track, do you ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much higlier the present grade 
 of the Lake Shore track at the point of crossing with 
 the Lackawanna is than the Erie? 
 
 A. Four feet and a half. 
 
 Q. The Erie was the first road constructed there, or 
 don't you know? 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. At the time that crossing was constructed the 
 business of the Erie and the Lake Shore was very con- 
 siderably less than at present ? 
 
 A. Oh, infinitely less. 
 
 Q. It has doubled within the last — what period ? 
 ,,. A. Doubled witliin the last five years. 
 
 Q. And a great increase year by year previous to 
 that ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Milburn : I will ask you if it is not a matter of 
 discussion and negotiation at times between the New 
 Yoj'k Central and Erie how to devise a system of ar- 
 rangements to obviate their crossings — if it is not a mat- 
 ter that is mooted and talked about? 
 
 A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
Chanute.] 105 
 
 Mr. Locke: You spoke about the Lackawanna cross- 416 
 ing down at Main street and at Black Rock ; have yon 
 looked at the grades of the Lackawanna road there, too, 
 in connection with the grades of the Erie International ? 
 
 A. I have not. 
 
 Mr. Milburn : If you will take the projected lines 
 " A " and " B " of the Lackawanna, can yon, as an engi- 
 neer, taking their main line and coming down here, see 
 any necessity of both of those lines 'i 
 
 A. It is a puzzle to me. 417 
 
 Q. What you mean is, that you cannot see why both 
 lines "A" and "B" are laid out there? 
 
 A. That is what I mean. 
 
 Q. By Com. Clark : Is there any practical difficulty 
 in constructing the Lackawanna road on the route wliicli 
 they have selected upon an elevated plan like the plan 
 which has been proposed by the petitioners? 
 
 A. No, sir; I think there would be no material diffi- 
 culty ; it wouldn't be quite as good as the proposed line. '^'■° 
 
 Q. What benefit, if any, would accrue to the public, 
 or to the owners of lands, or to these railroads, by rea- 
 son of constructing the line as proposed in the altered 
 way, than to construct the line on the elevated plan on 
 the route which they have selected ? 
 
 A. I cannot see that any advantage whatever to the 
 public would result from building the line as they have 
 proposed. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : But what advantage would result 
 from building an over-head crossing on our alteration, as 
 compared with building an over-head crossing on their 
 proposed line ; what advantage or benefit would accrue 
 there to the public or any other parties, or to the rail- 
 roads, the Erie, or the Lake Shore, by building at a 
 point which has been indicated by the petitioners there 
 over the line if built at the point indicated by the Lack- 
 awanna route it built on the elevated plan ; would there 
 
106 
 
 430 A. The location of the various columns to carry the 
 bridge would be more readily effected uijon the proposed 
 altered route than upon the route originally selected by 
 the Lackawanna Company; that would be the chief dif- 
 ference ; they would also need then to carry bridges over 
 seven tracks instead of ten. 
 
 Q. Would it be a detriment to the railroads particu- 
 larly ; any more detriment to the two railroads by reason 
 of locating it at the point proposed by the Lackawanna 
 ^^■'^ Road over and above the detriment the other way ? 
 
 A. It would cramp them somewhat more by the nec- 
 essary position of the piers of the bridge. 
 
 Q. There would be no physical difficulty in crossing 
 the proposed crossing on an over-head line ? 
 
 A. 1 think not. 
 
 Q. What would have to be the span of the bridges ? 
 
 A. There would have to be a series of bridges with 
 columns to support them between the tracks. 
 
 Q. Would those columns be a detriment to the com- 
 pany ? 
 
 A. To a certain extent; it would cramp their laying 
 additional tracks if it should be necessary; more on their 
 selected route than on the altered route presented ; there 
 would be a series of bridges ; it would not in any case be 
 spanned with one span ; there would be columns and 
 piers; columns and piers on tlie proposed alteration 
 ^23 would be less objectionable than the other route. 
 
 By Mr. Locke: Q. Uon't it take a longer bridge on 
 the proposed line than it does on the alteied line ? 
 
 A. A very little longer. 
 
 Q. A hundred feet longer ? 
 
 A. 1 don't think it does as much as that ; practically 
 it would not atfect the bridging much. 
 
 Q. The bridge ovei' the proposed line of the Lacka- 
 wanna would require a longer span than the brid<i-o over 
 the proposed alteration ? 
 
Butfnm.j 107 
 
 A. Yes, sir; but we split up with a greater number 434 
 of spans. 
 
 Q. How much further is it from the eastern line of 
 the right of way of tlie Lake Biiore road to the western 
 line of the Erie on tlie altered line, than on our proposed 
 line? 
 
 A. One hundred and fifty feet further ; it does not 
 lengthen the bridge that amount by any means. 
 
 By Mr. Greene: Q. In addition to the advantages 
 that you have stated to be effected by the proposed 425 
 alteration, would it not, if constructed according to 
 tlie proposed alteration, avoid crossing through about 
 tlie center of the large tract there owned by the Lake 
 Shore and Michigan Southern Railroad, which is bor- 
 dered in blue upon the map ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it would. 
 
 William W. Buffum, sworn on beJialf of the peti- 
 tioners, and examined by Mr. Gieene, testified as follows: 436 
 
 Q. What is your business? 
 
 A. I am a car agent for the Lake Shore road. 
 
 Q. What are your duties as car agent? 
 
 A. Well, I liave chai'ge of the car records and keep- 
 ing the movement of all the cars that pass into and out 
 of Buffalo, and trains ; also tlie interchange of freight 
 between the connecting lines with the Lake Shore. 
 
 O. How with reference to the transfer business with 
 the Lrie 5 
 
 A. I also have a record of that ; I have daily reports 
 of all of the transfer and through business. 
 
 Q. How long have you been acting in that capacity ? 
 
 A. About fifteen years. 
 
 Q. To what extent would you say the business of the 
 Lake Shore has increased during tlie last four or five 
 years ? 
 
 A. Well, it has nearly doubled. 
 
108 
 
 428 Q- A"c' pi'evions to that time has there been constant, 
 gradual increase in the business from the time you com- 
 menced ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; trom year to year. 
 
 Q. When freight trains arris'e at the point where the 
 crossing is proposed, what is done in tlie way of distrib- 
 uting the cars at that point? 
 
 A. Well, on the arrival of the freight trains tliey 
 would pass over this contemplated crossing and also the 
 
 429 crossing of the New York, Lake Erie and Western tracks, 
 and the trains move down into the yar(^ below these 
 crossings, and there the trains are switched out; tliat is, 
 they are sorted ; we have chalkers that mark the cars for 
 the Erie road and Central road and points designated 
 for the cars to go. 
 
 Q. See if these are all the points ; the town freight, 
 South Shore, Buffalo Creek, the Erie Transfer House, to 
 the place for putting ice in cars, the company's coal, New 
 
 430 York and Pliiladelphia Eailroad, the Central Railroad, 
 the stock yards at East Buffalo, the rolling mill, the 
 weighing place, and also the crippled cars, as they are 
 called, and the emigrant cars? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are they all sorted and distributed, leaving out 
 of view the emigrant cars, to these different points? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; leaving out the emigrant cars, all that 
 you have named there are sorted and distributed in the 
 yard. 
 
 Q. Cars for these different places being interspersed 
 hap-hazard through the train ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, in order to sort them out and distribute 
 tliem to these various places, what is done at these 
 switches at about the point where it is proposed to cross? 
 
 A. Well, they all have to be switched out according 
 
Buff'nm.J i09 
 
 as the cars are marked, of course they all come in in 432 
 trains. 
 
 By Com. Clark : All the counsel wishes to know is 
 the manner of doing it. 
 
 A. Well, that is done by a switch engine, that dis- 
 tribution of freight has to be done by the yardmaster 
 using his yard switch-engines to accomplish the work. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming: He will go down and 
 hitch onto one or more cars, and after he hitches on, 
 then where will he run in reference to this proposed 433 
 crossing? 
 
 A. He will hitch onto the back end of the train ; as 
 a general rule that is the way they have to do, then 
 they will pull up over these proposed crossings. 
 
 Q. Over these proposed crossings ? 
 
 A. Over these proposed crossings; if they have a 
 large train, they have to get clear up by the Buffalo 
 Creek bridge, and then they draw them over onto these 
 tracks; the main tracks where the trains come down 
 into the yard, they reach nearly to the Erie cross-over, 
 so that to get in onto these tracks we have to pass 
 over the Erie cross-over, and also it reaches the con- 
 templated crossing of the Delaware and Lackawanna; 
 we have to get up there and switch them off onto the 
 various tracks ; sometimes it will take fifteen or twenty 
 minutes, may be half an liour, to switch some trains out. 
 
 Q. That is, the switch engines will be constantly 
 passing and repassing at the point where that crossing ^^f^ 
 is proposed ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; of course that depends altogether on the 
 number of cars ; you take some trains, they are more 
 mixed than other trains, that is mixed freight; what 
 we call mixed, that is, cars for various points. 
 
 Q. It takes you lunger to distribute those ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Different cars for dift'erent points? 
 
lio 
 
 43fi A. Yes, sir; tliey would require more switching. 
 
 Q. Yon confine that to the cars, and not to the con- 
 tents of the cars ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Sometimes, in this process of switching, the 
 same car will necessarily have to be switched out back 
 and forth several times over this crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; in order to get other cars out. 
 
 Q. Now, in reference to the making up of traitvs? 
 437 A. Well, we have to use that upper yard for making 
 up nearly all of our trains, that is for town freight; that 
 is the city yard proper ; V7C make up our trains there, 
 also everything that goes to the Erie road. 
 
 Q. Do yon use substantially the same process in mak- 
 ing up trains as you do in distributing cars from trains, 
 as far as passing and repassing this point of intersection 
 is concerned ? 
 
 A. We do to a certain extent; yes, sir; our lower 
 ■' yai-d is used principally for the sorting of cars ; we 
 use those tracks for cars that come in to the Buffalo 
 consignees, and they remain there for the time it takes 
 to unload, and for that reason we do not have room to 
 make up trains there, and hardly ever make up a train 
 that starts at that lower yard, but the cars that are 
 loaded at the Buffalo town-house, and from the boats, 
 the canal-boats, those are pulled up, and we run them 
 right up, and we generally make the trains on what we 
 call Strong's and the Ryan track. 
 
 Q. Where is that in reference to this crossing ? 
 
 A. That is up at the Erie crossing ; they have to run 
 up there, and the switch is just this side of the Erie 
 crossing. 
 
 Q. Do you, in making up these trains, run back and 
 forth substantially as you have described in the distrib- 
 uting cars from the trains that arrive ? 
 
 A. Well, about the same. 
 
Buffum.J HI 
 
 Q. By Mr. Locke : What do you mean by that ? 440 
 
 A. Well, we have to shift them out, and get them 
 ready for trains, and we do that work in that upper yard ; 
 it is simply on the other side of the yard. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming : It is simply reversing the 
 process of distributing the cars? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Sorting them out, and putting them here and 
 there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 441 
 
 Q. And in order to do that, you have to cross and 
 recross this point of intersection ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; we have to do that in making up the 
 trains ; the trains that go west, we make them up on 
 the tracks that run north and south, west of the main 
 track. 
 
 Q. The Erie have a crossing for their freight line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Just below the proposed point of crossing ? '^^^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To what extent does that interfere and delay the 
 business of the Lake Shore Company ? 
 
 A. Well, when our business is heavy we are bothered 
 a great deal by the Erie Railway people crossing our 
 tracks. 
 
 Q. Just tell the commissioners iiow, and in what way, 
 
 and ffive them an idea of how the business is done _ 
 ^ 443 
 
 there ? 
 
 A. Well, very often we will have two or three trains 
 
 made up to go out from the city yard when their time is 
 
 up for leaving, and also we are liable to have trains that 
 
 come over on the compromise that pass right up through 
 
 this yard too, and go out over tiie Erie crossing, and also 
 
 we have had trains trying to get into the yard about the 
 
 same time, because we run trains that leave every hour, 
 
 and trains arriving about the same way, and if the Erie 
 
112 
 
 444 Eailway have the target at the crossing, we have to wait 
 before we can do any more business nntil the target is 
 surrendered to us ; and I have known our business to bo 
 blocked from half an hour to three-cparters of an hour 
 at a time, and I have made several complaints to Mr. 
 Taylor, the superintendent of the Erie Hailway, relating 
 to that; and we have had cases in the winter, when 
 our business was heavy, where we have held passenger 
 trains twenty minutes at the Buffalo Creek bridge ; 
 
 Wo could not get in on account of the Erie using the cross- 
 over track. 
 
 Q. In reference to the sorting out of the cars and dis- 
 tributing them upon their arrival, will you please de- 
 scribe that process a little more fully, so we may under- 
 stand whether, if, for instance, there are cars distributed 
 at different points in tlie train for East Buft'alo, whether 
 you would take all of those out, ran them out by them- 
 selves first, and then sort out from the train the cars that 
 might be destined for some other point by themselves, 
 or whether you go along and sort thern out as you reach 
 them in the train ? 
 
 A. Well, as a general thing we sort the cars out as 
 we reach them in the train. Wo have to do it in that 
 way in order to get through with the regular switching 
 that is required of the train. For instance, the head car 
 might be for the N. Y. L. E. & W. road, we would sini- 
 ply throw that out on a track by itself for the Erie 
 freight, and maybe the next two cars would be for East 
 Buffalo, we would throw them off on another track, and 
 we have to pull up and niake a switch every time we do 
 that. 
 
 Q. By pulling up and making a switch you would 
 have to cross and recross the point where they propose 
 to cross the tracks ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, 1 think we would, that is where the train 
 is a full train ; I know we run up over the east crossing 
 
Bnffum.] 113 
 
 and I think we reach the point where the Delaware and 448 
 Lackawanna contemplate crossing us. 
 
 Q. How many cars are there in a train ? 
 
 A. From thirty-six to thirty-eight, sometimes forty 
 cars in a train ; and we have one engine that brings in 
 fifty cars every day, that is her regular number to bring 
 in from Dunkirk fifty cars, and then our way freight, 
 very often that will have forty or forty-five cars ; tliey 
 pick np everything at stations along tiie line, but "the 
 regular trains, what we call the regular freight trains, -I^^O 
 they have from thirty-six to thirty-eight, and sometimes 
 forty cars, and in switching — I did not explain the 
 switching out of a train — we would get out, as I say, the 
 Erie cars and throw in on a track by themselves, and the 
 cars from the Central would come in on another branch, 
 and the cars to the freight-house would be thrown some- 
 were else, and of course we would be pulling up, passing 
 over this crossing and shifting, till we get our shifting 
 done, and then we would have cars sorted to the differ- 
 ent places where they should go, and then wo would 
 take the switch engine and take the Erie cars. 
 
 Q. Run those cars up over this same point of inter- 
 section, and from thence back again to their proper 
 places? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By Com. Clark : What is the distance between 
 the proposed crossing and the Erie crossing? , 
 
 A. About two hundred feet, according to the map. 
 
 Q. Between the line as proposed by the Lackawanna 
 road, and the Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it is between one hundred and seventy- 
 five and two hundred feet. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming: And immediately below 
 the crossing of the Erie, you have from these main tracks, 
 switches leading to the various track in the yard? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
114 
 
 452 Q- Which is situated immediately below the Erie 
 track ? 
 
 A. Below the Erie cross-over. 
 
 Q. About what is the length of tliat yard? 
 
 A. Well, I don't know as I could get at that exactly. 
 
 Q. By Com. McAlpine: How long is a train of forty 
 cars? 
 
 A. Well, I would say that a ti'ain of forty cars, from 
 my best judgement, including the engine and tender, 
 
 453 would take up fourteen hundred feet track room. 
 
 Q. Now, you may give us the length of a tender and 
 engine ? 
 
 A. Well, I would say about forty feet. 
 
 Q. Well, do you know ? 
 
 A. No, I never measured, I would say about sixty 
 feet. 
 
 Q. What do you say the effect would be upon the 
 traffic of the Lake Shore road, the business of it, at that 
 point, if there was another crossing at grade at the point 
 proposed, with the amount of business substantially the 
 same as that now done by the Erie ? 
 
 A. Well, I should consider, figuring from the delays 
 that we now have, our business being block on both sides 
 of the Erie cross-over as we have had it, that if there was 
 another crossing made over the Lake Shore tracks, tliat 
 they would so interfere with our business that we would 
 be about unable to do our work; I do not think we could 
 do it and keep it up as it ought to be done. 
 
 Q. By Com. Clark : You mean as you are doing 
 now? 
 
 A. I know we could not do it as we are doing now, 
 because we now find a great many delays and a ^reat 
 annoyance and trouble caused by the Erie crossing us. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming: Describe liow those an- 
 noyance? occur, and how these detentions are caused? 
 
Buffnm.] 115 
 
 A. The detention of course is caused by any railroad 456 
 crossing us, wlien tlicy are using their own crossingj if 
 they have a train of cars, and tliey get the target, and 
 shut us off from eitlier side, working on either side of 
 our tracks, we have to stand still until they surrender 
 the crossing to us. Now, if we had to compete with an- 
 other crossing like that, the delay would be twice as 
 great, necessarily it would be twice as great, and that 
 would interfere with our business greatly. 
 
 Q. That is to say, where the Erie people were using *57 
 their crossing, you would be delayed ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And at the same time the Lackawanna Company 
 might not be using their crossing, but still you would be 
 delayed just the same ; when the Erie gave you the tar- 
 get it might be taken by the Lackawanna, and they con- 
 tinue, and in that way exclude you more than the ratio 
 of two to one? 
 
 A. The Erie train might be leaving their crossing, 
 and we get the target right away, and just about that 
 time the target was given to the Lackawanna road, then 
 trains coming east would be held out by that target, and 
 they would be using the right of way, and trains could 
 not pass there. 
 
 Q. What would be the effect upon other incoming 
 and outgoing trains resulting from these delays of twen- 
 ty to forty minutes that you speak of? 
 
 A. Well, that would delay our passenger trains and 
 freight both — it delays them so that they cannot make 
 their time. 
 
 Q. A detention here will operate to detain trains 
 more or less along the road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; trains must leave on time; if it leaves 
 behind time, it is delayed on the road, held by 
 other trains; and we have to use one track through 
 
116 
 
 4G0 i)"i)kirk ; we have to use one track both ways there ; 
 we have not a double track there; it deranges the time. 
 Q. By Com. McAlpine : So that they do not run on 
 schedule time ? 
 
 A. They have to be held at stations, waiting for 
 other trains. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming: Is the passenger busi- 
 ness on the Lake Shore road done on one track ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I say we have places where we only 
 
 461 have one track. In going west we run right through 
 
 the depot at Dunkirk with our freight trains, and the 
 
 passengei- business that comes east they pass right 
 
 through the depot too, on the same track. 
 
 Q. The business done at this intersection bj' the Erie 
 is freight business exclusively ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is all freight. 
 
 Q. You cross over to the left-hand track going out? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 4G2 Q. You run up from the main passenger track 
 through the yard to a point about midway between the 
 line proposed by the Lackawanna Company and the pro- 
 posed altered line? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There you cross over to the left-hand track and 
 continue out on the left-hand track? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; all the passenger and freight trains take 
 the left-hand track in going west, and also in coming 
 * east; we run left-handed coming east ; so we really do 
 run left-handed. 
 
 Q. All the way from BuflFalo to Chicago ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The passenger trains coming in on that track 
 proceed to what point, or do they keep that track next 
 to the lake directly in ? 
 
 A. There is no crossing in this track ; they pass 
 right straight in on that track ; the freight trains we 
 
Bnffnm.J 117 
 
 have to switch right in here, and we often let them over 4(54 
 in onto this switch, to take the other tracks to get down 
 into the yard. Just below the Erie cross-over we have 
 branch tracks that connect right along through with 
 switches. 
 
 Q. When they get down to the point just below the 
 route proposed by the Lackawanna Company, they 
 switch off to the right? 
 
 A. From the left-hand tg the right-hand track com- 
 ing in. 405 
 
 Q. By Com. Clark : State right there why you do 
 that ? 
 
 A. We do that in order to get them down into the 
 yard. The yard of the east-bound freight is at the right 
 of tlie track. It is to get them right into the yard. It 
 is simply a cross-over switch. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming: On the lake side the 
 compan}- has not sufficient room for tracks? 
 
 A. No, sir. "466 
 
 Q. The tracks in the yard are mainly on the right 
 hand ? 
 
 A. The tracks in the yard are mainly on the right 
 hand of the main track as you come in. 
 
 Q. In effect, then, the east-bound and the west- 
 bound freiglit traffic of the Lake Shore road cross each 
 other at about this point where they propose to cross ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 467 
 Q. And the necessity for that is occasioned from the 
 
 fact that the yard is located as it is, and the inadequate 
 amount of land on the lake side of the yard to accom- 
 modate the traffic? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; necessarily this freight has all got to 
 pass out here. It seems to me to be immaterial about 
 the amount of land on the west side of the main track ; 
 we make up our trains there ; of course we have only 
 two tracks to do that on, to make up all our town trains 
 
118 
 
 468 to go west, but necessarily all this freight that comes 
 into Buffalo and goes out of Buffalo, for the Erie, and 
 the Central and the town business, and all other parties 
 that are interested in shipping freight for us, that neces- 
 sarily has to pass in through this narrow neck, and 
 through these crossings, and in getting out it has got to 
 pass over it ; and in getting freight to the Erie road of 
 course our trains when they come in, they pass these 
 crossings and go down into, the yard and to get freight 
 
 469 to the Erie, and we have got to go to work and re-switch 
 that and draw it all out here, and cross over these pro- 
 posed crossings, and also the Erie crossing, and come 
 way up near the bridge, and then we have a switch-otf; 
 there is a track at the right — a Lake Shore track — a 
 branch track to run off down into the Erie. 
 
 Q. You have stated that in transferring that freight 
 to the Erie, you pass down those tracks ? 
 
 A. We pass down. 
 
 Q. Now, in reference to the transfer from the Erie to 
 you — are the cars switched, and do they pass over this 
 proposed point of intersection in the same manner as the 
 cars that are sent by yon to the Erie, as you have just 
 described ? 
 
 A. The cars that come to us from the Erie, that 
 is, through cars, pass the cross-over tracks — pass our 
 tracks, that is, the Erie cross-over. They are delivered 
 to us on what we call the Harts track. The Harts track 
 is the most westerly track, and it is a curved track that 
 connects with the cross-over track of the Erie, and the 
 Lake Shore track. 
 
 Q. Now, you have told us how the freight that is 
 brought in by the Lake Shore is sent down to the Erie ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, just describe in language so that the min- 
 utes will show what you mean ; how the freight deliv- 
 ered by the Erie to the Lake Shore in reference to this 
 point — the through freight ? 
 
Buffum.J 119 
 
 A. All the thi'ongli freight is delivered to us by the 473 
 Erie on a circle track that connects with the cross-over 
 track of the Erie, and the Lake Shore track connects 
 with tlie track of the Erie road. The cross-over, of 
 course, belongs to the Erie here. It is a circle track, 
 and that track connects with the Lake Shore track on 
 the west side of our yard. It is a short track. We re- 
 ceive freight from that point to run through, and then 
 that is switched down in the yard below the Erie cross- 
 over, and made into trains, and then it passes out over 473 
 the cross-over track. 
 
 Q. In receiving that from the Erie, and placing in the 
 trains of the Lake Shore, do the cars necessarily pass 
 over the proposed point of intersection or crossing by 
 the Lackawanna road ? 
 
 A. They do in switching the cars to make them in 
 trains after we receive them. 
 
 Q. By Commissioner McAlpine: These trains from 
 the Erie of through freight which arc delivered to the 
 Lake Shore, are not mixed trains ; they do not require 
 assorting as the other trains that you describe ; it is but 
 one switching on that ? 
 
 A. We switch cars in station orders; we have to 
 sort them for stations west on the Lake Shore road. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming: That is to say, the 
 through freight, that is delivered to you from the Erie, 
 may be in cars interspersed, mixed up with other cars 
 upon the Erie train ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And they have to be sorted out from the Erie 
 train ? 
 
 A. The through cars that are delivered to us by the 
 Erie Road are delivered on a track that connects with the 
 cross over track of the Erie and the west-bound track of 
 the Lake Shore yard. In receiving these cars, we pull 
 them into our yard north, or below the crossing of the 
 
120 
 
 476 Erie, and in those cars there is no space to put anytliing 
 but what will run through ; but when I said that we 
 switch cars to get them in station order, I mean this — we 
 will receive eight or ten cars for Chicago, as many more 
 for Cleveland, and some for Pajnesville, some for Erie, 
 Dunkirk, any way stations on the line, we have to couple 
 onto this entire string of cars that we receive, and we 
 never pull the train unless it is full ; it holds thirty- 
 three cars, if I am right ; then we couple on to them 
 
 477 and pass over the Erie tracks and the contemplated cross- 
 ing of the Lackawanna road ; we have to cross up there, 
 and then switch these cars out and group them in trains. 
 
 Q. So as to get the cars that are to be first dropped 
 at the rear end of the train ? 
 
 A. Those that are to be first dropped are put at the 
 head of the train ; but they are arranged in station order. 
 
 Q. And all of that switching to thus arrange those 
 cars is done over the proposed point of intersection here, 
 ^^8 is it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and now 1 will further state, relating to 
 the transfer freight that we receive, that is delivered in 
 the transfer-house in Erie cars. 
 
 Q. By Commissioner McAlpine : What do you mean 
 by " transfer freight? " 
 
 A. Transferred from their cars into ours. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming : Where are tliose cars 
 taken from and to, from which the freight is to be trans- 
 ferred ? 
 
 A. Well, they are taken from the Erie cars that arc 
 placed in the house and put into our cars th^t wo have 
 placed in the house made to take the freight ; now those 
 cars run right out over the Erie track ; in drawing this 
 transfer freight out we pull it out over the Erie crossing, 
 and also the contemplated crossing; it is pulled right 
 out of the Erie transfer house, crosses the Erie cross- 
 
Buffuin.] 121 
 
 over and the "contemplatecl crossing, and then that is 430 
 backed down again into the main yard. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: That makes a grade crossing of 
 one of your own tracks of the Erie in addition to the 
 other ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; we really cross these crossing three 
 times to get it out. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : So that the cars from which 
 freight is transferred are hauled over the proposed cross- 
 ing three times? 481 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And about the other direction ? 
 
 A. In the other direction it all passes twice ; freight 
 
 in the other direction, coming east, it comes down into 
 
 the yard, it is switched out, and then it passes back over 
 
 this contemplated crossing to go and to be delivered to 
 
 the Erie road ; that all passes twice, and the transfer 
 
 freight passes three times, that is, that is transferred from 
 
 . 483 
 
 car to car, because that is done through the house, and 
 
 if you wanted to count the cars passing to be set in 
 
 there, they all have to pass over these contemplated 
 
 crossings; it- really made a passing of the car four times 
 
 to get the freight out and get it west. 
 
 Q. You keep a record of the cars delivered to and 
 received from the Erie road there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have yon here an abstract from the record for the , „„ 
 year 1880 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you mean when yon said it required 
 four passages ? 
 
 A. I meant across the point where it was proposed 
 to cross the Lake Shore track ; I didn't count the putting 
 in of the empty cars on the stop ; if we take and set an 
 empty car into the house, it would have to pass this track 
 to get in ; we have to pass over the contemplated cross- 
 
122 
 
 484 '"g ^o get that empty car in ; wc load tliat empty car; 
 we pnll it out on the contemplated crossing, that makes 
 twice ; we then go down to the main yard over those 
 contemplated crossing and make the car into a train, 
 that makes three times; a train then passes out of the 
 yard to go west, that makes four times. 
 
 Q. It necessarily makes four times; and in making 
 up the train, to put it in its proper place, it may have to 
 pass twice more? 
 
 485 A. It might be so. 
 
 Q. It frequently is so ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; not that it is necessarily so, but it 
 might be. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: If 1 understand it, the in-coming 
 freight must pass these crossings twice ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In the first place they come down with a car 
 loaded with freight, and that is taken out and put into 
 the transfer house, and the car goes back again ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then when you take it into your cars you are 
 obliged to send your empty cars down, receive the 
 freight, pass back again, and then back down into your 
 yard and put it in train ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And then moved with the train, it moves again ? 
 ^g.; A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that the same car goes over four times and 
 the same freight goes over six times ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Now, please state the number 
 of eastward-bound freight cars delivered to the Erie in 
 1880 at this point; state the through cars, those by 
 transfer separately ? 
 
 A. The through business of the Erie in 1880, the 
 number of through cars delivered east 32,141, and by 
 transfer 4,261. 
 
Buffum.J 123 
 
 Q. By transfer you mean the cars that ran to the 488 
 transfer house for the purpose of transferring freight 
 from car to car ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; to be unloaded and transferred on tlie 
 west-bound through business, 30,43;5, tiiat is, that the 
 Erie gave us, and the transfer that they gave ns from car 
 to car west-bound, 6,351 cars; that makes a total of 
 73,186 cars both ways of the Erie road. 
 
 Q. Now, give ns the total through business? 
 
 A. The total through business, other cars that passed ^89 
 over there not connected with the Erie, is 538,222 cars 
 for the year 1880. 
 
 By Mr. Clark : Does that include the cars that you 
 have just mentioned ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I have made it to include just what passes 
 over the crossing, the 73,186 is to be added to the 538,222. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : You may give us in tliis 
 538,222, the number that were eastward-bound and the 
 number west-bound cars ? 
 
 A. 268,707 cars were eastward-bound, and west-bound 
 269,515; in this report it simply includes the through 
 business, it does not count the switching of cars in the 
 yards and making up trains ; it does not account for this 
 numerous switching there back and forth across the Erie 
 crossing and this contemplated crossing at all ; that re- 
 port is just for the actual number of cars that do really 
 cross and recross in the general run of business. ^^^ 
 
 Q. Now give ns the number of through cars that 
 passed in east and west ? 
 
 A. In July, a year ago this month, 27,355 cars went 
 east and 26,515 went west ; in August, the next month, 
 we had 26,045 cars east and 26,478 cars west ; in October 
 we had 24,223 cars east; west, 20,697 ; in January we had 
 23,441 west ; east, 19,279 ; in March, east, 24,555 ; west, 
 22,315. Now that report is taken from tlie train-sheets 
 showing the actual number of cars in the train. It does 
 
124 
 
 493 iiot include our passenger cars, which amount to 37,960 
 both ways. 
 
 Q. By Com. Clark : Will you state whether all your 
 freight runs on schedule time, so that you can tell the 
 number of cars that run each day ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That will sliow the number of trains that ran each 
 day? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 493 Q. By Mr. McAlpine : Would dividing the number 
 of cars by forty give about the number of trains ? 
 
 A. Well, about thirty-nine would give it, I think. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming : The track marked " dock 
 track ■' upon " Exhibit No. 3 " is used for what purpose ? 
 
 A. That is used for receiving cars from the Erie road ; 
 the west bound track. 
 
 Q. Is that cut in two near its centre by the proposed 
 crossing — ^the proposed route ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that will be. It crosses about in the cen- 
 ter of it. 
 
 Q. What is that ti'ack used for; state more fully ? 
 
 A. It is used for tlie Lake Shore to receive their 
 freight cars on. We call it a receiving track ; that 
 is, we receive our freight from the Erie road on that 
 track. The Erie delivers their cars to us on that track. 
 
 Q. Does the freight remain there any length of time ? 
 
 A. Well, at times. 
 495 
 
 Q. Is it intended for them to run their cars upon and 
 
 for them to remain tliere until you remove them, as you 
 
 have described, to put them into your train ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, the cars when delivered remain tliere 
 until we receive tliem. They remain on that track until 
 we receive them all. 
 
 Q. They all have to be taken out in one direction ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, all in one direction. 
 
 Q. No outlet to it at the other end ? 
 
Buffurn.] 125 
 
 A. No, sir. 49g 
 
 Q. Where are the cars that are run out on the dock 
 track inspected ? 
 
 A. They are inspected on the dock track; the cars 
 that the Erie give ns are inspected on the dock track, 
 and we have to let them remain there until the inspec- 
 tion is made by the car inspector ; when everything is 
 inspected all right, we couple on the cars and receive 
 them, and we have to shift out all the cripples, etc., and 
 bring back and give to the Erie as soon as we pull off 497 
 the track ; they are generally there ready to give us 
 more, because they have so little room there. 
 
 Q. Now, state about what proportion of tlie time that 
 track marked " dock track " has been occupied by cars 
 standing there during the last year? 
 
 A. I should say it had been occupied all the time ; 
 you scarcely ever go there but what there are cars there. 
 
 Q. About what is the number of cars that can be de- 
 livered on this dock track at one time? 
 
 A. If my memory is right it is about thirty-three 
 cars, I think ; Mr. Daly says it is twenty-six cars ; I had 
 the impression it was thirty-thiee ; it is thirty-three on 
 the east-bound track, and twenty-six on the dock track ; 
 in this statement that 1 made out showing the number of 
 cars passing, counting the transfer and through, and all 
 business together, not including the switching in the 
 yards, because that I would have to guess at— I would 
 have to make an estimate from a guess, and that 1 
 wouldn't want to do — 
 
 Q. That is the switching over this intersection ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and this report I figured at 611,408 cars ; 
 that would be an average of 1,675 cars per day passing 
 over the contemplated crossing, and for every hour in the 
 day sixty-nine cars, and for every minute in the year one 
 and nine-sixteenths cars. Now, our chief dispatcher, 
 who is here, gave me a report that I think he made 
 
126 
 
 500 an estimate, an estimated report of all the passenger 
 trains, and perhaps he had better give that in, the Bufialo 
 creek business, the cars for them, and the New York and 
 Philadelphia road figures 7,300, and that I did not add 
 and the passenger business. 
 
 Q. There should, be 7,300 freight cars added to the 
 aggregate which yon have given on account of cars de- 
 livered to the other railroads ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, and also the passenger business. 
 
 501 Q. What you have stated has alluded to freight inde- 
 pendent of the passenger business ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State whether or not all freight received from and 
 delivered to the Central road has to cross these tracks of 
 the proposed crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, all freight that goes to and from the Cen- 
 tral passes those crossings. 
 
 Q. Now, when freight trains stop, when the Lake 
 '' Shore stop for the target, state whether or not they have 
 to cut them in two at the Elk, Perry and Fulton street 
 crossings ; there is a target at the crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q- Well, you may explain about the target at this 
 point, the object and operation of it, how it is used to 
 control or direct the movement of trains ? 
 
 A. Well, at all railroad crossings we have a target, 
 . -^g and especially this ; we have a target at that crossing. 
 
 Q. What is a target? 
 
 A. It is a pole set up about forty feet in the air, with 
 "a cross-bar on ; that lets down and pulls up ; when it is 
 horizontal that stands all right for the Lake Shore road 
 to pass ? 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. It is to indicate when trains mav 
 pass ? 
 
 A. The Lake shore trains may pass, and when it is 
 vertical it is then for the Erie trains to pass, and we 
 
Buftnni.J 1^7 
 
 liave two men to attend to that target, and all engineers 504. 
 and conductors have to watch approaching crossings to 
 see whether they have the target, and we use lights on 
 it at night, of course. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. And when you use the ex- 
 pression of the train having the target you mean it lias 
 a right then to cross ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The person in cliarge of tlie target determines 
 the right to cross ? 505 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By counsel resuming: Q. When the Erie has the 
 target you mean it has the right to use the crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, what rules govern this right and this opera- 
 tion of the target ? 
 
 A. Well, those are rules established by the superin- 
 tendent of the road. 
 
 Q. How? ^"^ 
 
 A. Well, they are established as a code of signals. 
 
 Q. How do you determine who has the right? 
 
 A. Well, this man that attends tlie target has to de- 
 termine. 
 
 Q. Upon what principal or rule ? 
 
 A. If our train, as it is approaching, and nearer the 
 crossing than the Erie train, and he thinljs that we can get 
 over there and get clear, he gives us the target, and the ^^^ 
 Erie man looks out and sees the target is against him, 
 and he has to stop his train and wait and we pass over ; 
 directly after we pass over the target is reversed and 
 given to the Erie people to pass. 
 
 Q. Does he give preference to classes of trains? 
 
 A. Well, they should give preferences to passenger 
 trains, and do. 
 
 Q. Supposing one company gets the target and be- 
 fore it is changed they might lieep three or four trains 
 
128 
 
 508 on that same road and retain the target until they had 
 all passed ? 
 
 A. They would if they were close together ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, suppose a Lake Shore train was approaching 
 when the Erie had the target, and it is compelled to 
 stop, do you know as to whether or not they are re- 
 quired to, and do cut the trains at street crossings at 
 Elk, Ferry and Fulton streets? 
 
 A. They do. 
 
 509 Q- Cut the train to leave an opening between the 
 sections of the train to allow the unobstructed use of the 
 highway ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that the law of the State requires. 
 
 Q. How many streets are there that a train approach- 
 ing and stopping would cross after it stopped ; how many 
 streets would it extend over, the ordinary train ? 
 
 A. It would extend over Elk street, and a long train, 
 a heavy train, I think, would reach over Fulton street 
 51 f^ and down probably to Perry. 
 
 Q. Then a train made up of several sections, how 
 would that be? 
 
 A. Well, if they were following close behind they 
 would have to stop and cut at the crossings. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. What do you mean by the 
 different sections ? 
 
 A. If we have more cars than we can send in one 
 train they are cut up into extras; there may be a second 
 extra or a third extra. * , 
 
 By counsel resuming : Q. After cutting these trains 
 would there be any dela}', and what, before starting, 
 after you got the target ? 
 
 A. Well, there would be the delay in backing up and 
 making the couplings, you would have to couple the 
 train up and start; after we get the target we get ready 
 to go and couple our trains. 
 
Bnffum.J 129 
 
 Q. Can yon give us an idea about how long a space 512 
 of time it would take backing up for each of these streets 
 to make your coupling and connection ? 
 
 A. Well, that would depend on whether the switch- 
 men or brakemen were successful in making their coup- 
 lings at once. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. Are they self-coupling cars? 
 
 A. No, sir; freight cars never are. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. Well, about the average 
 time? 513 
 
 A. If they had to make three couphngs, it would 
 take from ten to fifteen minutes, might not take as long 
 as that; if they came back a little too fast the brakeman 
 would not make the coupling, he might not get it in 
 right, he might have to shake his pin two or three times 
 to get it down ; I have seen it in that way ; if everything 
 came back just as we would like to have it they could 
 make a coupling quick and go right down to make an- 
 other. 514 
 
 Q. Do you think it would take ten or fifteen minutes 
 to make those three couplings ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; nearly that, I think. 
 
 Q. And as much more time in breaking the train ? 
 
 A. Well, in breaking it is something that very often 
 happens, that a draw -head will pull out, or a link; in 
 starting they have got to put on plenty of steam and 
 force to get over this crossing ; there is where very often ^ 
 a link breaks, or a draw-head pulls out. 
 
 Q. You said it took ten or fifteen minutes to connect 
 the train when you were ready to go forward ; now to 
 break the train, to separate the cars in the train, how 
 long will it take ? 
 
 A. Well, it will take nearly as long ; I think it would 
 take ten minutes, maybe less ; it would take less time 
 than it would to couple it up. 
 
130 
 
 516 0- What do yon say as to the frequency and severity 
 uf snow-storms at tliis point; tell us what there is about 
 that, as affecting the detention? 
 
 A. Well, we have always been troubled in that part 
 of the yard with snow, as we have in all parts of the 
 yard ; I don't say the snow comes down there especially 
 because this contemplated crossing is there, but I have 
 seen it pile up there two and three feet in the yard, right 
 on a level. 
 
 517 Q. Mixed in with what ? 
 A. Well, everything most. 
 
 Q. Any sand there? Just describe the nature of the 
 embankment that the snow forms? 
 
 A. It is right on the lake where we get this sand, 
 and everything that blows up there, so that it will blind 
 yon in a snow-storm ; 1 have been down there when it 
 would close my eyes right up ; it is almost impossible to 
 get through on tliat account ; we have to put men in 
 
 518 tliere and shovel it out. 
 
 Q. In reference to the removal of snow and taking it 
 ofi'hy cars along over this point of proposed crossing? 
 
 A. Well, we have to draw it off out of the yard. 
 
 Q. By Commissioner McAJpine : You spoke of the 
 snow being two or three feet deep in that yard ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At these crossings the ground is elevated above 
 
 and fewer tracks : you don't have the snow so deep ? 
 5 1 'J 
 
 A. It is not any worse there at these crossings than 
 
 it is down below, but I think it is just as bad, because 
 
 we have a clear, clean sweep from the lake right 
 
 through ; it blows sand and snow, and everything else in 
 
 tliere ; it makes it almost impassible there in the winter ; 
 
 it is a very bad place ; it is the worst place we have, 
 
 j,ight around the Erie transfer. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't snow fences protect you from snow and 
 
 sand ? 
 
Buffum xj 131 
 
 A. Well, we did try that, and we considered they 530 
 weren't very valualjle ; we took them down ; we don't 
 have snow fences up there now ; we didn't last winter. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming : What about the necessity 
 of keeping this snow and sand thoroughly cleaned out at 
 this point? 
 
 A. It is very necessary to do that, from the simple 
 reason we have so much of this switching, and in among 
 the frogs it is necessary to keep that all cleaned out, in 
 order to keep the cars on the track, because, if the 531 
 switches are choked up, everybody knows that makes 
 bad work right oft". 
 
 Q. You have to get the snow off before it becomes 
 ice? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we always attend to our switches first. 
 
 Q. During yonr experience there has it been in ref- 
 erence to snow blockades of one of the tracks extending 
 from Buffalo to Hamburgh so as to compel you to use 
 one track ? 
 
 A. It has been so that we could not use but one 
 track. 
 
 Q. What would be the effect of your being limited to 
 the use of the one track in the way of detention and de- 
 lay and inconvenience by reason of this crossing? 
 
 A. It would be impossible to do our work, we could 
 not do it on one track. 
 
 Q. That is at this point ? . ,„ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Cross-exa'mination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. 1 understand you to say that the total east-bound 
 through freight on the Lake Shore road passing this 
 crossing point in 1880 amounted to 538,222 cars ? 
 
 A. Well, that includes the through business. 
 
 Q. That includes the Lake Shore business proper ? 
 
132 
 
 534 A. TJiat includes Lake Shore business proper, not 
 counting the Erie transfer business, nor the Buffalo 
 Creek. 
 
 Q. Take tlie 638,000 cars, how much would that be, 
 counting 365 days to the year ? 
 
 A. For how many cars ? 
 
 Q. Five hundred and thirty-eight thousand two hun- 
 dred and twenty-two? 
 
 A. That will not get at it. 
 
 535 Q. You get at it in that way ? 
 A. I can give you that. 
 
 Q. It would be 1,474 cars a day, would not it ? 
 
 A. I have not figured it yet ; it would be about 1,475. 
 
 Q. Not quite that ? 
 
 A. No, sir, 
 
 Q. That would be cars per day ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Calling 40 cars to a train, how many trains would 
 ^'^^ that make per day passing this point? It would be just 
 39 trains per day, would not it ? 
 
 A. About that ; but there is more than that ; it will 
 average more than that. 
 
 Q. I will go a little further with you ; you timed 
 yesterday — you observed the time required for cars to 
 pass this crossing, did you not ? You stood there with 
 us when we timed several cars ? 
 
 537 ^- Y^^'^"'- 
 
 Q. It was about two seconds to a car, you observed, 
 
 did you not ? 
 
 A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Assuming that each ear occupied about two sec- 
 onds in passing the crossing, that would make eighty 
 seconds to the train, would it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; if it was two seconds. 
 
 Q. And on thirty-nine trains per day it would iriake 
 3,920 seconds, would not it, or fifty-two minutes of the 
 
Buffnm X ] 133 
 
 twenty-four hours? Tliere would be fifty-two minutes 528 
 of the tweuty-four hours when a car-wheel would be in 
 actual contact with that crossing point ? 
 
 A. I do not think that a car in passing — 
 
 Q. Is not that so ? 
 
 A. Well, if you take your figures it would be so. I 
 did not time it, and I do not desire to say anything 
 about that. 
 
 Q. I am assuming that it takes two seconds for a car 
 to pass the point of intersection; then on thirty-nine 529 
 trains of forty cars to the train it would actually oc- 
 cupy that point of crossing fifty-two minutes in the 
 twenty-four hours, would it not ? 
 
 A. According to your figures. 
 
 Q. Take the Erie cars, there were 73,186 transferred 
 one way or the other last year ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is about two hundred cars a day, is it not, 
 just two hundred, as near as you can fix it? • 
 
 A. In that neighborhood. 
 
 Q. Counting 365 days in a year? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That would be only five trains, would it, of forty 
 cars to a train ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. I suppose that there are times during the day 
 down there when there is no train approaching that _„ 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. There may be times when there is nothing cross- 
 ing either way. 
 
 Q. Are not there a good many times during the day 
 when there is no train approaching that crossing within 
 a distance of 3,000 feet either way ? 
 
 A. I don't think there are many ? 
 
 Q. Not many ? 
 
 A. Not many. 
 
134 
 
 M'Z Q- You were there with ns yesterday ? 
 
 A. They were fixing the track. 
 
 Q. There was half an hour that we were there yes- 
 terday and there was no train approaching nor wanting 
 to cross except our own engiue ? 
 
 Mr. Milburn : There were trains there waiting all the 
 time. 
 
 Mr. Locke, resuming : I say there was half an hour 
 when a train did not try to go over that crossing? 
 533 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Presents papers to witness. 
 
 Q. Did you make this abstract? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you make it from ? 
 
 A. From books that I kept myself. 
 
 Q. Where are the books? 
 
 A. In my office. 
 
 Q. Capable of being produced here? 
 634: A. Well, it would be rather unhandy. 
 
 Q. Did you make the entries in the book yourself? 
 
 A. No ; I have clerks who do the work. 
 
 Q. Then tlie entries in the book are not made by 
 you ? You have made this up from some book that 
 somebody else keeps in your office ? 
 
 A. Why, my clerks keep the record. 
 
 Q. Who is your clerk ? 
 
 A. I have three or four of them. 
 535 Q_ Where is your office? 
 
 A. On Hamburgh street. 
 
 Q. Where do they get their information from ? 
 
 A. We have reporters outside who report to us every 
 day. 
 
 Q. The reporter reports to the clerk and the clerk en- 
 ters it in the book ; and whether the reporter reported 
 correctly or the clerk entered it correctly you don't 
 know ? 
 
T^uffnm xj 135 
 
 A. We have the conductor's report of every car that 5;5(', 
 rnns, and that sliows the initial and number of the car. 
 We have the train men checking against this conductor. 
 
 Q. Those men are all here, are they, all accessible ? 
 
 A. I would like to explain this. 
 
 A. I don't care for the explanation. I have not 
 asked you about the course of business at all. Is the 
 Erie business growing, the Exchange business ? 
 
 A. Yes sir ; I think it is. 
 
 Q. They are putting in a new grade crossing there ? S.'H 
 
 A. They are. 
 
 Q. Is that with the consent of the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. The Lake Shore don't have anything to do 
 with it. 
 
 Q. They cannot help themselves? 
 
 A. If they want to put in half a dozen tracks they 
 will do it. 
 
 Q. The Erie will cross there as much as they see 
 fit? The more tracks they put in and the more busi- ^' ' 
 ness they do the more delays are occasioned to the Lake 
 Shore road ? 
 
 A. Well, the more business there is done there the 
 worse it is for us. 
 
 Q. Still they are putting in a new track there to-day? 
 
 A. They have a right to do that. 
 
 Q. Do you have anything to do with the location of 
 the tracks, telling wliere a track shall be put in, or any- _ 
 thing of that sort ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That is not within your jurisdiction ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose yon have had enough experience in 
 railroads to know that tracks can be shifted around for a 
 certain amount of money? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The methods of business in the yard ? 
 
13() 
 
 540 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The connections in the yard can be shifted 
 aronnd and modified by the expenditure of some certain 
 amount of money? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; always; providing both parties agree 
 to it. 
 
 Q. Yon spoke of the times that cars crossed the 
 Lake Shore point there where the proposed Lackawanna 
 crossing is. Do you mean to say that every car in every 
 
 541 freight train that you bring down from Dunkirk to Buf- 
 falo and run into your yard is pulled out again and 
 pulled as far back as this crossing point ? 
 
 A. 1 would not say that every train is, but nearly all 
 of them are. 
 
 Q. Can you say what proportion of the cars tliat 
 come down and go into your yard are again hauled out 
 foi' the purpose of making up that disti-ibution, what 
 proportion of the cars ? 
 
 542 A. Well, that is a question that I cannot answer pre- 
 cisely. 
 
 Q. Will you swear that ten per cent of them are ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are pulled out again beyond this point? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I will swear that a great many more 
 than that arc; I should say seventy-five per cent. 
 
 Q. You have switches all along down your yard, 
 have you not? 
 ^*^ A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far is it from the first switch north of the 
 Erie crossing to the point of crossing of the Lackawanna 
 road ? 
 
 A. It is impossible to do your switching down in 
 here; you cannot do your switching here because you 
 cannot get on the other track; you have got to come 
 above these switches. 
 
Buffum xj 137 
 
 Q. How far is switch No. 4 from the point of cross- 544. 
 ing of the Lackawanna road? 
 
 A. That would be about 565 feet. 
 
 Q. After yonr train is half distribnted, or two-thirds 
 distributed, if you wanted to put cars in on switch No. 4, 
 you would not have to run back ? 
 
 A. If you haye got your train here you have got to 
 pull it back by the switches ; you have got to come up 
 here with your train. 
 
 Q. What proportion of your east-bound freight is 545 
 delivered to the New York Central road ? 
 
 By a commissioner : Do you mea.n freight or cars? 
 
 Mr. Locke : Cars, I mean. 
 
 A. Well, perhaps six-tenths of it. 
 
 Q. What proportion to the Erie ? 
 
 A. I should say two-tenths, or a little more. 
 
 Q. You delivered to the Erie 32,000 cars, did you 
 not? ^ 545 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I am only estimating this, you know; I 
 am trying to answer your question. 
 
 Q. Where do the other two-tenths go ? 
 
 A. That would be town freight. 
 
 Q. Where do you lilt the Buffalo Creek ? 
 
 A. We hit tjiera at the junction. 
 
 Q. On the south side of the Buffalo River ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; where we went the other day ; where 
 tiie Buffalo Creek road- crosses our track. 547 
 
 Q. Do you arrange your trains at any point in tlie 
 west with a view to the distribution of cars in Buffalo? 
 
 A. We do when we have time to do it. 
 
 Q. So that a good many trains come here with Erie 
 freight at the rear part of tlie train, don't they ? 
 
 A. Very few. 
 Q. Some? 
 A. Some do. 
 
138 
 
 §48 Q- Would there be any trouble in arranging it 
 so that yonr Erie cars should be put in the rear of 
 the train? 
 
 A. We would have to switch them out. 
 
 Q. Suppose you have Eed Line cars come in ; a 
 whole train of Red Line cars, that freight goes by the 
 New York Central ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any trouble in running that into one of 
 549 these switches and hitching on the front end and draw- 
 ing it right over on your transfer tracks ? 
 
 A. If we had a full train we could get rid of them. 
 
 Q. You have a great many full trains, don't you ? 
 
 A. Not always, we do some. 
 
 Q. It is not an infrequent thing for you to have full 
 trains, is it, of Red Line cars ? 
 
 A. No, we do not have full trains of Red Lino cars 
 very often ; it is a very infrequent thing if we do. 
 '^ Q. Is it not a very common thing for you to have 
 
 full trains of freight to points east by the way of that 
 road ? 
 
 A. It is a very imcommon thing. 
 
 Q. Is it a seldom thing for you to have ten cars all in 
 a bunch by the New York Central ? 
 
 A. We have them often. 
 
 Q. Twenty cars? 
 
 A. Sometimes; not often. 
 
 Q. Yon have often ten cars ? 
 
 A. Often have ten or eleven or twelve cars. 
 
 Q. With those ten or eleven or twelve cars, don't 
 it happen in the condition of your tracks here, ten times 
 out of eleven that those cars do not have to be pulled 
 back beyond this Lackawanna crossing? 
 
 A. They most always have to be pulled over this 
 contemplated crossing. 
 
 Q. How long is vour yard here ? 
 
Bnftuin x] 139 
 
 A. Its tracks were made to hold a good sized train. 55^ 
 
 Q. Your tracks are 1,500 feet long tliere, these tracks 
 in the yard ? 
 
 A. No, I don't think they are. 
 
 Q. How long is your yard ? 
 
 A. Well, I don't know that I can toil you tliat ; I 
 never measured it, I presume Mr. Hawks can answer 
 that question. 
 
 Q. By a commissioner : Are those tracks long enough 
 to take in a whole train ? 553 
 
 A. The track is long enough to take in a wliole train, 
 that is what it is designed for, that lets the train in, and 
 then we come up on the other track with tlie switch- 
 engine, and then we have to throw it over this 
 crossing and switch on the other track. 
 
 Q. Is there any practical difficulty in connecting these 
 (ifferent tracks in the yard with switches in the yard? 
 
 A. Well, the}' are connected now at the lower end of 
 the jarC. 554 
 
 Q. Can't they be connected intermediate? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Between the terminal points? 
 
 A. No, sir ; we can't do it and do our work. 
 
 Q. Why ? 
 
 A. We would be running the cars on one track into 
 the cars onto another track. 
 
 Q. You would not if your switches were taken care 
 of ■! 
 
 A. We would have to place switchmen all througli 
 the yard and employ ten or twelve switchmen to put in 
 this yard to attend these cross-switches. 
 
 Q. So that all the tracks in your yard have got to bo 
 independent tracks you say, without any connection with 
 any other track, for fear tiiat a switeiiman will make a 
 blunder ? 
 
 A. I have not said that ; but necessarily in a yard 
 
140 
 
 556 like this we want considerable track to put our train on ; 
 of course we have switches at both ends to get out and 
 in ; I don't see how you could let two trains in on one 
 track that was made to hold one train ; how you could 
 get two trains on one track. 
 
 Q. Take track number six, right along by track num- 
 ber seven ; I suppose that if number seven did not happen 
 to be occupied at all and you wanted to cut into a train 
 and cut out a car which stood on track number six, there 
 
 557 would not be any particular danger of running it into 
 number seven ? 
 
 A. We are constantly using those tracks; we are 
 coming throngh from East Buffalo, and we run up liere 
 and strike the main track. 
 
 Q. Do you have to break into every train that starts 
 from Buffalo on account of the streets that you pass? 
 
 A. Well, if we stop the train we do. 
 
 Q. You have to stop every train, don't you ? 
 
 A. If tiiere is any detention at the Erie cross-over, 
 or any obstruction on the track that causes us to stop 
 outside of the regular stop we have to make, then we cut 
 the train. 
 
 Q. Don't you know you are autliorized by the ordi- 
 nance to obstruct any of these streets with your trains, 
 provided the obstruction does not extend over a space of 
 five minutes? 
 
 A. If it extends over a space of five minutes we have 
 to cut tlie crossing. 
 
 Q. If you don't have to wait over five minutes you 
 do not have to cut your train in two ? 
 
 A. If we have to wait over two minutes we cut our 
 train. 
 
 Q. You don't have to do it ? 
 
 A. We must not block the crossing over five min- 
 utes. 
 
Biiffum xj 141 
 
 Q. That is your notice that is stuck on your sign- 5(^0 
 board, to engineers ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The Abbott road is one of the main thorought'aj'es 
 into the city, is it not ? 
 
 A. Elk street is, and the Abbott road. 
 
 Q. Would there be any trouble in putting some more 
 transfer tracks on the north side of the transfer house ? 
 
 A. There would not be any trouble if we could make 
 connection with the Erie. 5G1 
 
 Q. That could readily be done with the acquisition 
 of a very little land on the other side of the transfer 
 house, couldn't it ? 
 
 A. It would have to cross these main tracks on the 
 Erie. 
 
 Q. That would be a very serious matter ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; there is no outlet at this end; it is easy 
 enough to put the tracks in ; here is the Abbott road, 
 you would have to cross that, and here is Elk street run- 
 ning through here ; this is all built up by property 
 owners ; they come up clear to the transfer house. 
 
 Q. Cottages? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. The blank, triangular place on 
 the map between the Abbott road and Elk street is all 
 filled up by stores and houses ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Counsel, resuming : Q. How valuable is the most 
 valuable building on that triangle that you can mention ; 
 is there a building there worth seven hundred dollars ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Whose building is it? 
 
 A. Well, there is a building on the corner, I don't 
 know who owns it ; it stands on the Abbott road ; there 
 is a building there that I should say from what little ex- 
 
142 
 
 504 pei'iencc I Ijiive had in building, never cost less than fif- 
 teen hundred dollars to bnild it. 
 
 Q. What building is it ? 
 
 A. A two-story place, a store with a wing attached. 
 
 Q. Where does it front? 
 
 A. On the Abbott road. 
 
 Q. How far back does it extend from the Abbott 
 road ? 
 
 A. 1 should say it runs back thirty or forty or fifty 
 565 feet ; then here is a place here the gentleman asks ten 
 thousand dollars for that property. 
 
 Q. You would not want to go three hundred feet 
 away in order to connect there? 
 
 A. That man might make it unpleasant for you. 
 
 Q. Do your present transfer tracks connect with the 
 Erie road at all ? 
 
 A. They connect with the Erie tracks ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Aren't they all stub tracks, stub toes ; there are 
 '^fi'J two that are ? 
 
 A. Those are the transfer tracks. 
 
 Q. They don't connect there ? 
 
 A. They don't connect there. 
 
 Q. What track is it that you stand the Erie cars 
 upon, which are delivered to you, until you get twenty- 
 three, and then pull them out ? 
 
 A. On the dock track. 
 
 Q. Would there be any difficulty in putting a track 
 en the north side of the transfer house upon which to 
 stand those cars as you got ready to get hold of them ? 
 
 A. Well, yes, there would be difficulty in doino- tjiat, 
 because we would have to cross our own main ti'acks 
 and we would have also to cross the Erie tracks. 
 
 Q. They do not cross your main tracks, now ? 
 
 A. No, sir, they do not. 
 
 Q. How do the}' got over ? 
 
 A. The Erie takes them over on their ti'acks. 
 
Biiffiim x] l43 
 
 Q. Tliey cross yonr main track ? 5(;8 
 
 A. No, sir; we bring them down west of onr main 
 tracif, and make them in trains on the west-bound track. 
 
 Q. Last winter was a very severe winter, wasn't it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. One of the severest you have ever had ? 
 
 A. I think I experienced the cold more last winter 
 than ever before in my life. 
 
 Q. There was a great deal of snow last winter? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; quite a quantity of it. 5(J9 
 
 Q. Did the sand blow in from the lake shore? 
 
 A. It came in from the lake side ; 1 couldn't say 
 from what place. 
 
 Q. Do you see any perceptible elevations in your 
 grade from that place by reason of the deposit of sand 
 blown in there from the Hamburgh turnpike ? 
 
 A. Well, that I don't know — that I noticed enough 
 to give you an answer. 
 
 Q. The prevailing winds here are all from the west ? ° 
 
 A. West and northwest. 
 
 Q. This point where we propose to cross, where the 
 Lackawanna proposes to cross the Lake Shore is about 
 eight feet above the grade of the land, is it not ; that is, 
 the original surface? 
 
 A. That I don't know that I can tell you exactly. 
 
 Q. It is considerably elevated ? 
 
 A. It is elevated. g^2 
 
 Q. There are a large number of houses, the Wads- 
 worth Iron Works furnaces and the houses connected 
 with them are immediately to the west of this point of 
 crossing, are they not? 
 
 A. Yes, they are west. 
 
 Q. Answer the question directly ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't those houses shield your track at this point 
 at all ? 
 
144 
 
 572 ^- I don't think they do to help it any. 
 
 Q. You think that the elevation of your tracks above 
 the surface of the ground does not tend to keep that 
 point of the track clear from snow ? 
 
 A. No, I don't think it does. 
 
 Q. Your trouble this winter in regard to -snow was 
 away down in those multiplied tracks in your yard, 
 wasn't it ? 
 
 A. No, sir; not all of it. 
 
 573 Q. Will you testify that yon have ever drawn away 
 on cai's any snow from that point, on your main line? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Instead of shoveling it off from the bank ? 
 
 A. We did it last winter. 
 
 Q. Instead of shoveling it off the bank ? 
 
 A. We shoveled off from the banks perhaps until it 
 
 was all filled up, it drifted! right in there and you couldn't 
 
 tell where the bank was ; it would drift in there so that 
 
 '"'^it filled everything right up; I have seen it so that it 
 
 was level there. 
 
 Q. What became of those houses; were they visible 
 to the naked eye at all ? 
 
 A. They used to dig out in front of them. 
 
 Q. How many times have you seen that ? 
 
 A. I noticed that there last winter, and I know we 
 had snow clear up here; I had a hundred and fifty men. 
 ^-,. Q- You had a hundred and fifty men to take snow- 
 away from this crossing ? 
 
 A. From that point and other points; we worked 
 clear up to the Buffalo Creek. 
 
 Q. Shoveling snow clear up to the river ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have to shovel any snow away in Ham- 
 burgh ? 
 
 A. Yes, we went up there and shoveled snow in 
 Hamburgh. 
 
Buffurn.] 1 145 
 
 Q. All along your railroad ? 576 
 
 A. At tlie points along the road, there were certain 
 points where it drifted in more. 
 
 Q. Is there any more snow at the proposed crossing 
 of the Lackawanna road than at the proposed altered 
 point of crossing ? 
 
 A. Well, I don't know that there is. 
 
 Q. It is about the same ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. One of the most important tracks you have there, 577 
 as I understand you, is the extreme westerly track in 
 connection with this transfer business, that new track 
 that yoxi are now putting in, is it not ? 
 
 A. Well, we are putting that in. 
 
 Q. Is it not one of your most important tracks ? 
 
 A. That is an important track to get to the transfer, 
 it is necessary to have a track there. 
 
 Q. When did you commence putting that in, do you 
 
 kn 07o 
 
 now '. 
 
 A. No, I don't know just the day. 
 
 Q. Is it over ten days ago you commenced — I ask 
 you if you can tell V 
 
 A. I don't know just the day, I know it is some days 
 ago our men commenced putting in those tracks ; I was not 
 there when they commenced it. 
 
 Q. Were you there when they commenced putting in 
 this crossing of the Erie ? g-,g 
 
 A. No, sir, I was not ; we left that to the track men 
 in the yard. 
 
 Re-direct examination, by Mr. Greene : 
 Q. In Mr. Locke's hypothetical question, that it took 
 a'car so many seconds to pass a given point, he asked 
 you if all those cars could not pass a given point (all 
 that pass in a day) in fifty two minutes ; carry that if 
 you will a little farther; if his premises are correct the 
 
146 
 
 580 T^fke Shore business conld do about twenty or twenty- 
 five times as much business as it is doing now on those 
 same tracks? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not assent to the correctness of the basis 
 upon which he asks your opinion? 
 
 A. I said according to his figures. 
 
 Q. The books that are kept are under your supervis- 
 ion and charge? 
 
 581 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You daily have access to them and examine them ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The book is record of the movement of cars, 
 arrival and departure of cars? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were giving us the system or metliod in 
 which those facts are arrived at and the record made ; 
 just proceed and tell us briefly, what you were about to 
 
 582 do when stopped by Mr. Locke ? 
 
 A. Well, I would say in getting at the figures, or in 
 getting the numbers of all cars, of course we have a sys- 
 tem the same as anybody else does in doing their work. 
 
 Q. Tell what it is briefly ? 
 
 A. We have in our yard car reporters with books 
 and pencils to take the number and initial of every car, 
 noting the number of the train, the conductor's name, 
 and the initial of every car in the train that arrives, and 
 the time that the train did arrive, and just the same 
 occurs with any trains that are made up and sent out of 
 the yards to go west; those books are returned in the 
 oflice every morning ; we also in the meantime have all 
 the freight conductors that arrive in Buffalo, bring a re- 
 port of their trains, what they call a conductor's report 
 that states the number of the cars, the initial of the car 
 where taken on, and left at Bufi'alo, or if they have any 
 other cars in their train, if they are left anywhere else on 
 
Buftuiw-1 147 
 
 the line it shows that where the cars were left on the 5^4 
 route; it shows also those that were left in Buffalo; 1 
 have my clerks take those reports and books and com- 
 pare them ; we do that for accuracy, not to make any 
 mistake in the numbers ; we have to figure the mileage 
 from the car numbers, and they cheek the conductor's 
 report, if they agree we suppose the work is right, we 
 then go to work and copy the tra,ins on sheets about two 
 feet long, and about a foot and a half in width, these we 
 call regular train sheets for making out a general report; 5^5 
 we go to work and keep those trains, conductor's names 
 at such a section. 
 
 Q. Don't go so much into detail ? 
 
 A. We make out daily reports of that kind every 
 day, east and west-bound, and then we have a set of 
 books in which we keep an account of all cars delivered 
 to our connections, the Central and Erie, and wherever 
 cars go they are entered on these books as delivered to 
 certain points, and also received. 
 
 Q. Those are kept as records of the company ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It is from those records which have been under 
 your supervision that you have made this abstract and 
 have obtained the figures that you have testified to here? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Greene offered in evidence the detailed statement 
 referred to, showing the eastward and westward-bound ^^i 
 cars, during each month in the year 1880. The one at 
 the top of the sheet shows the arrival and departure 
 during that year, and the one at the bottom shows those 
 received from and delivered to the Erie business, and 
 transfer. 
 
 Objected to by Mr. Locke. 
 
 Paper marked " Petitioner's Exhibit 5." 
 
 Q. In that connection the statements here, moiitii liy 
 month, are truly stated from the records that are in the 
 
148 
 
 588 ofHee, and that have been made and kept as yon have 
 described yesterday ? 
 
 Ml-. Greene : I offer that as part of his testimony, 
 with the same effect as tliou<rh I had asked him snch a 
 month, so many cars, etc. 
 So received in evidence. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us about the proportion of the 
 through cars that cross this point of intersection more 
 than twice as they go down into the yard, and as they 
 5^9 are switched out, what proportion of them would pass 
 and re-pass tliis proposed crossing more than twice, that 
 is, more than when they I'uii into the yard and when they 
 run out? 
 
 A. That is in the switching. 
 
 Q. Yes, sir, as I understand you they run down into 
 the yard, and more or less of them are brought out here 
 and switched across this point ; what proportion of those 
 cars, the through cars, pass over this proposed crossing 
 more than twice? 
 
 A. I should say about one-half. 
 Q. And they pass over how many times ? 
 A. In switching the trains the}' come up and one car 
 might pass over there two or three times before the 
 engine will go. 
 
 Q. Would the average be, in your judgement, half 
 of the number of cars passing and re-passing that is go- 
 pjq^ ing over that point twice, in addition to the time when 
 it was received and when it was discharged ? 
 
 A. I think it would ; I think nearly half of them are 
 switched over the crossing. 
 
 Q. So that upon the whole, in your judgment, about 
 one-half of the total number of through cars would pass 
 over this point four times? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that would make four times. 
 Q. Counsel has spent some time in asking you about 
 a series of switches in the yard between the tracks. Is 
 
Bnffum.J 149 
 
 that practicable, in your judgment, the various switches 59^ 
 so as to do the swithing in the 3'ard ? 
 
 A. No, sir, wo could not do our work to have switches 
 run from one track to the other ; it would be impossible 
 to do it. 
 
 Q. Was ever any such thing as that conceived of or 
 executed ; was ever such a plan carried iuto operation to 
 your knowledge ? 
 
 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge ; it has not been 
 since I was there? 593 
 
 Q. You were asked about taking the Lake Shore 
 tracks that now pass on the southeasterly side of the 
 transfer house — you were asked as to the feasibility of 
 changing those tracks so that they would run down on 
 the north side. In addition to the objection that you 
 have given to there being no outlet across the Abbott 
 road, is it not a fact that they would necessarily cross the 
 
 main tracks of the Erie ? 
 
 594 
 A. They would cross the main tracks of the Erie and 
 
 also our main tracks. 
 
 Q. Those tracks, to get to that point, would necessa- 
 rily cross the main tracks of the Erie road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which is now avoided here ? 
 -A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that you make your through connection with 
 the Erie without crossing the main tracks of the Erie ? ggg 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But in the plan as proposed by him, the main 
 through business of your road in connection with the 
 Erie would have to cross the tracks of the Erie, and pass 
 down and intersect and connect with them below ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which is avoided at the present time ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At this point of intersection the proposed location 
 
150 
 
 590 is tlie track occupied more oi- less by the passage of 
 trains to and from their destination, or by the switching 
 movement of cars to and from the transfer house, and to 
 and from the yards independent of tlie regular trains? 
 
 A. I think it is used as mnch in the switching as it is 
 in the business of letting out through trains; I think 
 just about one-half, as I said in answer to your ques- 
 tion before ; I think it is used full as much to do the 
 switching. 
 597 Q. Tliat is, as many cars are moved ? 
 
 A. Yea, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there not a much greater length of time used 
 in switching ? 
 
 A. It is greater in switching. 
 
 Q. There is a greater length of time used in switch- 
 ing and transferring than in tlie passage of ti-ains ? 
 
 A. That must be so, because in transferring cars we 
 liave to switch back and forth all the time. 
 
 Q. Take it now, about what proportion of the time 
 is actually occupied about those switches by the Lake 
 Shore and Erie, put it all together, during the day — 
 about what proportion of the time ? 
 
 A. Why, at the least calculation one-third of the 
 time. 
 
 Q. That is, either one or tlie other has the target, and 
 is using a track at the point of the proposed crossing ? 
 P ,, A. Two-thirds of the time, yes, sir. 
 
 lie-cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Your passenger trains have the riglit of way over 
 the freight trains ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You run in connection with the New York Cen- 
 tral? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Bnflfnin x] 15l 
 
 Q. If tlie New York Ceiitral train is late twenty 600 
 minutes your passenger trains usually wait, don't they ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To make the connection ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And start out late ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That has been a very frequent occurrence in the 
 last year ? 
 
 A. Well, last winter it was, but now they run right 
 on time. 
 
 Q. I suppose that nearly all the difliculties that you 
 have mentioned in connection with your proposed cross- 
 ing would still attach to this matter if the point of cross- 
 ing were changed to the altered line, and then made a 
 grade across it; whether the grade crossing is at this 
 or that point is not a matter of serious difference, is it? 
 
 A. Well, it would help our business more if we could _.,, 
 
 ^ bOa 
 
 get you off here further. 
 
 Q. Up near the bridge ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and it would be better if we did not have 
 you at all ; that is, we are bothered enough now to do 
 our work, and if we get many more crossings there we 
 shall have to close up. 
 
 Q. Is it not better for you, considering that all trains 
 have to stop at this crossing, that our point of crossing 
 should be as far away from the bridge as possible if we qqs 
 are going to build a grade crossing ? 
 
 A. No, I will tell you. 
 
 Q. You heard what Mr. Hawks said on that subject 
 yesterday, did you not? 
 
 A. I heard some of it. 
 
 Q. All your through business would cross that point 
 both ways ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
152 
 
 604^ Q- A good many of your long trains when you are 
 making them up would also have to come by that point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; all I can see where we would have the 
 advantage if we had you here, it would give us more 
 room for the transfer. 
 
 Q. It would be the simple business of the Erie road ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; not alone. It would help us in switch- 
 ing our freight down here. 
 
 Q. Would it be fifty per cent, easier for the Lake 
 605 Shore road to operate its tracks if we had a grade cross- 
 ing at the point where they propose to have us cross 
 than if we had our grade-crossing at the point where we 
 propose to cross ? 
 
 A. I will not say, I can not say as to the per cent. 
 
 Q. Would it make three per cent, difference ? 
 
 A. I will say the further we can get you out of the 
 
 way the better ; I would rather it would rest at that ; 
 
 and as to the help that it will render us, that I would 
 
 ^06 rather you would ask the engineer about, because that is 
 
 in his department. 
 
 Q. Every train that comes to this point has to cross, 
 or has to stop now, does it not on your road ? 
 
 A. We stop now before crossing. 
 
 Q. Every train has to stop before it reaches the 
 Lackawanna crossing, don't it, on one side or on tlie 
 otlier ? 
 
 A. Yes, I think you are going to cross about where 
 we stop on the south of the — 
 
 Q. You have seen the exact point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I saw it. 
 
 Q. Don't you know that every ti-ain already stops on 
 one side or the other of that point ? 
 
 A. I understand we stop before we cross the Erie 
 crossing. 
 
 Q. You stop where you switch the track* ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; about that. 
 
Niles.] 153 
 
 Q. B_y Com. Clark : Do I understand you to say in gQg 
 doing your business, in switching, you pass tfie cars back 
 to the point of alteration, of the altered line? 
 
 A. Well, I don't know as I understand you. 
 
 Q. By Com. Clark : You say you pass yonr cars over 
 this point of the Lackawanna line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In switching ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you also pass them over tlie proposed line ? 009 
 
 A. Well, I think they would come up nearly to tliis ; 
 I presume we could do considerable switching; it would 
 depend on the number ; I presume we could do a good 
 deal of switching and not come up to tlie proposed line 
 unless we had a very long train. 
 
 Re-cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. You could not do vei-y much switching and stop 
 short of the Lackawanna crossing ? 610 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But that two hundred feet, which would be five 
 cars, would give you about all the room that you 
 wanted ? 
 
 A. Well, not all we wanted, I have not said that. 
 
 Tract W. Niles, sworn and examined by Mr. McMil- 
 lan, testified as follows : 
 
 611 
 
 Q. You reside in Buffalo, Mr. Niles? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And have for how many years ? 
 
 A. More or less all my life ; I have been here for the 
 last eight years steady. 
 
 Q. You are one of the train dispatchers for the peti- 
 tioner, The Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway 
 Company ? 
 
 A, Yes, sir, one of them. 
 
154 
 
 613 Q. How long have you been engaged in that ca- 
 pacity ? 
 
 A. For the last eigiit years. 
 
 Q. Your office is where ? 
 
 A. In the Central depot on Exchange street. 
 
 Q. What portion of the road is under your control ? 
 
 A. As far as dispatching of trains is concerned, the 
 portion of the road between East Buffalo and Erie. 
 
 Q. Your business naturally pertains to the traffic 
 "^^ upon the road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You know nothing about the engineering difficul- 
 ties in this case. 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You may state the number of regular trains that 
 como into and leave the city of Buffalo on the Lake 
 Shore road during each twenty-four hours, as it is now 
 being run and operated, by the time table ? 
 
 A. The number of trains that are being run in and 
 out of the city over the Lake Shore according to tlie 
 present time table if fifty-two ; thirteen of them are pas- 
 senger trains and the balance, thirty-nine, are freight 
 trains. 
 
 Q. Are each of those trains designated by a number? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; designated by a number. 
 
 Q. Under those numbers are the trains divided into 
 
 sections? 
 
 616 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it very often occurs that on what is 
 
 called one run, we will have three trains on that run 
 
 designated as sections. 
 
 Q. Explain so that the commissioners will under- 
 stand it fully. 
 
 A. The section of a I'un is one train consisting of 
 engines and caboose and thirty or forty ears to make up 
 the train, that is considered a section, say of No. 40. It 
 would be called the first section number forty, and carry- 
 
Niles.J 155 
 
 ing red signals would indicate that there were two sec-fiie 
 tions numbered forty on that one run, and if there were 
 three sections, the second section would also carry red 
 signals, that would designate that there were three trains, 
 three sections of No. 40 in that run. All the trains 
 tliat are run on one run are called sections, iirst, second 
 and third section. 
 
 Q. So that when you say there are fifty-two trains, 
 you mean that there are that number on the time-card? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 6] 7 
 
 Q. Sometimes you have more than that; where 
 there are three sections in a train-number there would 
 be an increase in the number of trains ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; at the present time we are running from 
 fifty-seven to sixty-two trains a day. 
 
 Q. That includes these various sections ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; the only way that we could run more 
 than fifty-two would be to run more than one section on 
 a run. ^^^ ■ 
 
 Q. Mr. Locke : You call them extras ? 
 
 A. They are not extras ; the second section has the 
 same right as the first section ; it is not a special. 
 
 Counsel resuming : 
 
 Q. Is it a part of your duty, as train-dispatcher on 
 the lines of the road between here and Erie, to keep an 
 accurate data of the position that each of thsse trains are 
 in during the twenty-four hours, until they leave your 
 division ? ^'^^ 
 
 A. Not for the twenty-four hours, but for the eight 
 hours when I am on duty ; there are three disp'atchers, 
 and each one keeps a full record for the time that he is 
 on duty, and that record is open to the inspection of either 
 one of the three dispatchers. 
 
 Q. While you are on duty it is a part of your duty 
 to keep a record of the position and point that these 
 trains are at all along the line ? 
 
156 
 
 eiO A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You can tell where each one of those trains is 
 that are in your division ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Both freight and passenger ? 
 
 A. Both freight and passenger ; when a train leaves 
 Buffalo or Erie there is a telegraphic report sent to my 
 office, giving the number of the engine, the name of the 
 conductor, and the number of cars in the train, the 
 631 time the train left Erie or Buffalo, and as that train 
 passes each succeeding station, the operator at that sta- 
 tion sends a report to the dispatcher's office, giving the 
 time that the train passed there. That train-sheet as 
 we call it, we are enabled to look at at anj' time and see 
 at once the position of any train on the road. 
 
 Q. It is also a part of your duty, is it not, to regulate 
 the running of those trains ? 
 
 A. The running of the trains is properly regulated 
 by the time-table when they are on time ; when they get 
 off from the regular time it is my duty to keep them 
 running. 
 
 Q. To keep them in position so that they will not 
 collide? 
 
 A. To keep them a proper distance apart, and move 
 them ahead of passenger trains if passenger trains are 
 late. 
 (^23 Q- That is, if a train is delayed at the Erie crossing 
 you regulate the trains that leave after that train, and 
 the trains coming in from the other direction, from the 
 west? 
 
 A. At that point the trains coming in and going out 
 would be properly regulated by the yardmaster. 
 
 Q. If they left there late it would disarrange the 
 time table, and then they would be under your direc- 
 tion, wouldn't they ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Niles.] 15? 
 
 Q. By Mr. Locke : Unless they made it np before 624 
 they reached the next station? 
 
 A. If a train were coming east that would be the 
 end of the division. 
 
 Mr. McMillan resuming : Q. Have you prepared 
 from your time-card a statement showing the time when 
 the trains, belonging to the Lake Shore Company, arrive 
 at and depart from the point where they stop nearest 
 this crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes,' sir. 635 
 
 Q. And is that prepared from the train-sheet or from 
 the time-card from which they are run ? 
 
 A. At the present ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The numbers in pencil indicate the time that 
 elapses between each train ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The letter "D" indicates departing and "A" the 
 arrival of trains? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; the arrival of trains refers to east-bound 
 trains, and the departing to the west-bound trains, and 
 I have also marked the passenger trains with a little 
 star ; in all cases the odd numbers are trains going west, 
 and even numbers are trains mOTing east. 
 
 Paper which was marked by the stenographer No. " 6 " 
 for identification, was as follows : 
 
 Statement Showing the Kegulae Number of Trains, 
 
 637 
 Passenger and Freight, Arriving and Departing 
 
 at Buffalo on the L. S., & M. S. Ry., According 
 
 TO the Time-table now in use upon that Railroad. 
 
 Departing,* 
 
 No. 1, 
 
 12.35 A. M. 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 23, 
 
 1.20 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 60, 
 
 1.50 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 25, 
 
 2.20 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 42, 
 
 3.00 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 22, 
 
 3.15 
 
158 
 
 638 
 
 629 
 
 630 
 
 631 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 27, 
 
 3.20 A. 
 
 Arriving,* 
 
 No. 4, 
 
 3.45 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 24, 
 
 4.35 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 51, 
 
 ^4.35 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 26, 
 
 5.40 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 73, 
 
 5.45 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 28, 
 
 6.20 
 
 Departing,* 
 
 No. 3, 
 
 6.55 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 29, 
 
 7.10 
 
 Arriving,* 
 
 No. 20, 
 
 7.15 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 53, 
 
 7.40 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 64, 
 
 8.15 
 
 Departing,* 
 
 No. 21, 
 
 8.20 
 
 Departing," 
 
 No. 15, 
 
 9.22 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 33, 
 
 9.32 
 
 Arriving,* 
 
 No. 2, 
 
 9.45 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 35, 
 
 10.15 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 32, 
 
 10.25 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 58, 
 
 10.50 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 37, 
 
 11.20 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 68. 
 
 11.30 
 
 Departing,* 
 
 No. 5, 
 
 12.55 p 
 
 Arriving,* 
 
 No. 6, 
 
 1.00 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 39, 
 
 1.10 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 74, 
 
 1.40 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 34, 
 
 2.00 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 30, 
 
 2.30 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 43, 
 
 2.50 
 
 AiTiving, 
 
 No. 56, 
 
 3.50 
 
 Departing,* 
 
 No. 9, 
 
 4.05 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 41, 
 
 4.20 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 57, 
 
 4.50 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 66, 
 
 5.10 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 62, 
 
 5.50 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 59, 
 
 5.50 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 65, 
 
 6.10 
 
 M. 
 
 M. 
 
Niles.j 169 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 •No. 
 
 40, 
 
 6.25 p, 
 
 Arriving,* 
 
 No. 
 
 10, 
 
 6.45 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 
 
 61, 
 
 7.10 
 
 Arriving,* 
 
 No. 
 
 8, 
 
 7.50 
 
 Departing,* 
 
 No. 
 
 7, 
 
 8.30 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 
 
 36, 
 
 8.35 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 
 
 31, 
 
 9.30 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 
 
 54, 
 
 10.00 
 
 Departing, 
 
 No. 
 
 63, 
 
 10.25 
 
 Arriving, 
 
 No. 
 
 38, 
 
 11.25 
 
 M. 
 
 63a 
 
 633 
 Odd numbers, west. 
 
 Trains departing are west-bound trains. 
 
 Trains arriving are east-bonnd trains. 
 
 Even numbers, east ; passenger trains marked * 
 
 Two trains on run No. 8, but one shown on card. 
 
 Q. In stormy weather how do delays of from twenty 
 to thirty minutes at the Erie crossing affect the running 
 of trains in your division ? 
 
 A. In foggy weather, during the winter time, or in ^'^'^ 
 snowy weather, a delay at that point causes delay at all 
 the points on the road, and of trains coming east from 
 Erie. It would also delay all the west-bound trains 
 made up in the yard ready to leave, in either the Buffalo 
 yard or East Buffalo yard, or on the road between East 
 Buffalo and Buffalo, for the reason that in stormy 
 weather or foggy weather on the Lake Shore road all 
 trains are blocked ; by blocking I mean that they are 
 kept one telegraph station apart. Hamburg is the first 
 telegraph stations west of Buffalo, and when a train 
 passes there the operator at Hamburg puts out a red flag 
 and holds all other east-bound trains until the train that 
 has passed there passes Buffalo, so that in-coming trains 
 where delayed at that crossing would necessarily delay 
 all trains coming east at that time until it got clear. 
 
 By Com. Clark: Q. Do they go on the same track? 
 
 A. East-bound trains do. 
 
 635 
 
160 
 
 636 Q. West-bound trains, too? 
 
 A. No ; they don't go on the same track, but at that 
 point there is a single track. 
 
 Q. At Hamburg ? 
 
 A. No, sir; at this Erie crossing. We do not allow 
 two trains in one block at the same time ; a block would 
 be between two telegraph stations, Buffalo and Ham- 
 burg. 
 
 Q. Does that apply to passenger trains as well as 
 631 freight ? 
 
 A. It applies to passenger trains at all times, whether 
 stormy or pleasant weather. 
 
 Q. Don't you send out a freight train at Buffalo until 
 the train has passed Hamburg ? 
 
 A. Not if the preceding train is a passenger train 
 we do not, nor do we allow one passenger train to follow 
 another passenger until it has passed the next station, 
 nor a freight to follow a passenger until it has passed the 
 ^'•^^ next station, so that if there was a passenger train delayed 
 at that Erie crossing it would delay all east-bound freight 
 trains coming east, whetiier stormy or foggy weather. 
 
 Q. Does that apply to these various sections to which 
 you have alluded ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan, resuming : Q. The nearest tele- 
 graph station to this Erie crossing is what? 
 
 A. The nearest telegraph station, I am not positive 
 whether the telegraph station is the nearest or the one 
 at the Buffalo Creek crossing. 
 
 Q. You have two, one on each sid6 ? 
 
 A. One on each side ; trains are not given any time 
 on the time-table at the round-house, and they are at the 
 Buffalo Creek crossing. 
 
 Q. Is there not one at the transfer-house ? 
 
 A. We have no telegraph ofiice there at the present 
 
Niles xj 161 
 
 time, but wo have a telephone office there that is con- 640 
 nected with our office at the depot. 
 
 Presents paper to witness. 
 
 Q. What do yon make the number of passenger cars. 
 Give it tor the separate months? 
 
 A. The passenger cai's by this report for the month 
 of April, 2,608. 
 
 Q. That is both ways?' 
 
 A. Yes, sir; for the month of May, 2,776; June, 
 2,727. ■ 641 
 
 Q. You may state as near as you can about what pro- 
 portion of the time during the fall, spring and winter 
 months the stormy weather and fogs occasion delays on 
 the road ? 
 
 A. Well, it is not for any continuous length of time ; 
 it would be for two or three to ten days at a time. 
 
 Q. I say tell us about what proportion of the time 
 during those months you are aflected by delays from 
 fogs and storms and snow ? 643 
 
 A. It is according to the weather at that time of 
 the year ; I should think for the fall and winter we are 
 troubled so that we have to use a positive block on our 
 roads, fully one-half of the time. 
 
 Q. How in the spring? 
 
 A. In the spring we are not troubled, but very little, 
 occasionally a foggy day. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 643 
 
 Q. How long have you been on the Lake Shore 
 road? 
 
 A. Sixteen years. 
 
 Q. Have these same rules applied all the time ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have they been in force in regard to 
 preventing freight trains from following passenger trains 
 until they pass the next station ? 
 
 A. Two and one-half years. 
 
Missing Page 
 
Niles xj 163 
 
 business of the year? How would to-day compare ? 648 
 A. Very favorably. 
 
 Q. That is, you are doing as much to-day as the 
 average business of any day in the year? 
 A. About the average. 
 
 Q. You sa}' tiie business of to-day compares very 
 favorably with the average business of the twelve 
 months ? 
 
 A. I suppose so ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose the amount of switching depends to a ^^'-^ 
 large extent upon that amount of freight you are 
 rimning? 
 
 A. Sometimes. 
 
 Q. It would naturally, wouldn't it, all other things 
 being equal. The amount of the switching would in- 
 crease with the amount of cars you were running ? 
 A. That would be a natural consequence. 
 Q. No report is made to you, as I understand you, 
 until a train gets to Hamburg, after it leaves Buffalo ? ° 
 A. Not after it leaves Buffalo Creek crossing. 
 Q. Is there a report made to you from the round- 
 house ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any report made to you until the train 
 leaves the Buffalo Creek crossing ? 
 
 A. Not unless there is some special delay of the 
 train. g5^ 
 
 Q. What would you call a special delay of the train, 
 five or ten minutes ? 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. You would not call that a special delay ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Twenty-five minutes? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Anything under twenty minutes would not be a 
 special delay? 
 A, Jh might Jiot be J;q_ freight trains; to passenger 
 
Missing Page 
 
Niles X] 165 
 
 Q. That is what you are there for, is it not ? {jgij 
 
 A. One thing. 
 
 Q. Would a delay at the Erie crossing of a freiglit 
 train of five minutes discommode the passenger trains 
 coming east at Brocton ? 
 
 A. At certain times of the day and certain days of 
 the week it would. 
 
 Q. How often would the delay of a freight train five 
 minutes at the Erie crossing interfere with the passen- 
 ger train at Brocton coming east? 657 
 
 A. Not very frequently, excepting in the winter 
 months. 
 
 Q. You say you do not call the delay to a freight 
 train of anj'thing less than twenty minutes a special 
 delay ? 
 
 A. Not unless it is the cause of laying out and de- 
 taining a passenger train. 
 
 Q. You have siding upon your road all the way up, 
 have you not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; sometimes we have more trains than we 
 can get in on the sidings. 
 
 Q. That don't very often occur ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It does occur often ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As far as you can you economize those sidings? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ggg 
 
 Q. And every train, if it cannot go as fast as it ought 
 to go, it goes upon a siding and goes when it can get 
 through ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You cannot tell from your office whether a train 
 is delayed at the Erie crossing or not, can you, until it 
 gets somewliere else. 
 
 A. Not unless they are delayed there quite a length 
 of time, and they tell us by the telephone. 
 
 Q. Hoy nfteti have v ou been apprised of delays at 
 
166 
 
 660 the Erie crossing, taking it in the last thirty days? Yon 
 have been on duty eight hours of every day for the last 
 thirty days ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many reports have you had of delays at the 
 Erie crossing during those thirty days by telephone? 
 A. I don't think I have had any. 
 
 lie-direct examination : 
 
 Q. You don't get your reports from the passenger 
 
 661 office, but as I understand you, you get them from the 
 creek ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is the place that you get the report of the 
 time of leaving and the information of their detention ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has tiie passenger business increased within the 
 past year or two ? Are there a number of trains put on ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is increasing monthly ; we have been 
 obliged to put on an extra train in the last two weeks. 
 
 Q. It has been so increasing for tlie past two years ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; steadily. 
 
 Re-cross examination : 
 
 Q. You do not mean you have put on a new train 
 every two weeks ? 
 
 A. I did not mean so; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Your business, I suppose, increases and decreases 
 ""^ with the general tide of the business of the country, 
 don't it? In periods of depression you do not have so 
 much ? 
 
 A. It depends something on what the current rate is. 
 
 Q. When freights are low you have a good deal ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; and when passenger rates are low we 
 have a good deal. 
 
 Q. If they are high you do not have so much ? 
 
 A. Not at certain seasons of the year. 
 
 Q. Have you talcen off a freight train ? 
 
LRtimer.J 167 
 
 A. No; we have added some freight trains. 664 
 
 Q. The same number of trains run east and west on 
 your road ? 
 
 A. They do, through the year. 
 
 Q. Otherwise your engines would all get west? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, sometimes they do. 
 
 Q. You say sometimes your engines all get west? 
 what do you start your western-bound trains with then ? 
 
 A. I mean a majority of them ; they have the longest 
 lay-over at the west end of the road. 665 
 
 Re-direct examination : 
 
 Q. Where are the delays to freight trains at the Erie 
 crossing reported to ? 
 
 A. As a general thing they are reported to the super- 
 intendent at Cleveland. 
 
 Q. They do not come to your office ? 
 
 A. Nor, sir. 
 
 666 
 Charles Latimee, sworn and examined by -Mr. 
 
 Greene, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Where do you reside? 
 
 A. Cleveland. 
 
 Q. What is your profession ? 
 
 A. Civil engineering. 
 
 Q. How many years have yon practiced ? 
 
 A. I have been in the profession something over 
 twenty years. ^^''' 
 
 Q. What special branch or department ? 
 
 A. I have been railroading for seven years ; chief en- 
 gineer of the New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio. 
 
 Q. What is your present position ? 
 
 A. Chief engineer of tiie New York, Pennsylvania and 
 Oiiio, formerly the Atlantic and Great Western road. 
 
 Q. Your duty in that position requires your attention 
 to what branch of the business? 
 
 A. Charge of all road matters, everything pertaining 
 
168 
 
 C08 to the road and the right of way, leases pertaining to 
 leans, or leases of lands. 
 
 Q. Have you at any time been the manager of any 
 railroad ? 
 
 A. I have never been manager, I have been superin- 
 tendent for a short time. 
 
 Q. What road ? 
 
 A. The western end of the St. Louis, Vandalia and 
 Terre Haute, in the beginning for a short time, and the 
 669 nortliern part of the Mobile and Ohio. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the Lake Shore road and 
 its branches and connections ? 
 
 A. Tolerably so. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with the premises at and ad- 
 jacent to the proposed crossing here ? 
 
 A. I have examined them. 
 
 Q. When did you examine them? 
 
 A. This morning. 
 
 Q. Have you heard the testimonj' of the two wit- 
 nesses who have been last examined ? 
 
 A. I heard the first totally, and the latter mostly. 
 
 Q. What do yon say as to whether it is practical and 
 feasible to construct the road accoi-ding to the proposed 
 altered route by an over-crossing ? 
 
 A. It is a practical route. 
 
 Q. Will you please state as to what objections there 
 „„- are known to you, from your experience in such matters 
 to grade crossing on a railroad ? 
 
 A. My experience in that matter has been very con- 
 siderable, and my conclusion is that every gi-ade cross- 
 ing should be avoided that it is possible to avoid. 
 
 Q. Will you state to these gentlemen generally, and 
 somewhat in detail, the reasons upon which that conclu- 
 sion is based, the objections to grade-crossings generally? 
 
 A. In reference to this particular locality 1 
 
 Q. First, not in reference to this particular locality ? 
 
 A. First, there is danger of collision on roads in 
 
Missing Page 
 
170 
 
 G7C, Q- What other objections or expenses attendant are 
 there ? 
 
 A. An expense attendant upon tliat, a very import- 
 ant expense, is a watchman, which costs somewhere 
 about twelve hundred dollars per annum ; they are costly 
 on that acconnt. The average cost for a crossing, for 
 watchman and necessary equipment there per annum is 
 about twelve hundred dollai-s outside of the question of 
 the crossing itself. 
 'j^T Q. What in reference to the clement of detention 
 of trains at crossings ? 
 
 A. There is an average of five minntes detention at 
 every crossing ; that we determine upon our road, the 
 New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio, by the speed re- 
 corded. 
 
 Q. That is where there is simply a local crossing ? 
 A. At an ordinary crossing five minutes; the best you 
 can get over is an average of five minutes ; that is deter- 
 " mined by the speed recorded, with which I have deter- 
 mined it ; it is a loss of five minutes. 
 Q. That is at a simple crossing ? 
 
 A. At a simple railroad crossing ; the time yon lose 
 ill your speed, if you regain it again, you find you have 
 lost five minntes in making the crossing. 
 
 Q. By a commissioner : That five minutes is made 
 up by the loss of time in checking the train ? 
 |.-.,, A. Yes, sir, until you regain ; if you take a line and 
 see where you would have been, passing through, you 
 will find you have lost five minutes; that is my estimate 
 of that, and whatever is lost there has to be made up 
 on the road somewhere in speed, which is lost otherwise 
 if not there. 
 
 Q. It is not only a loss of time, but of power and of 
 fuel ? 
 
 A. Of course there is a loss there. 
 Q. And an injury to tlie rolling stock independent of 
 the pounding '( 
 
Latimer.] 171 
 
 stock independont of the question of the pounding upon yyo 
 tlie crossing as to breaks used and draw-bars, and upon 
 tiie racking of the whole traiu ; j'on cannot stop a train 
 at a crossing witiiout a wrench, and very frequently very 
 serious wrenches to stop a train ? sometimes you are 
 brought up standing at a crossing, and especially in bad 
 weather sometimes you are obliged to make stops very 
 suddenly and uncomfortably, which makes the average 
 stop at a crossing a more serious matter than any other 
 stop on the road. t>yi 
 
 Q. Is there not an injury to the rolling stock caused 
 by the increased rate of speed at which you must neces- 
 sarily run your train in order to make up this detention ? 
 
 A. That is an element I spoke of before ; if you 
 make up you are about as bad off in making up as yon 
 are in the detention ; if you make up your time you have 
 got to do it at the expense I speak of. 
 
 Q. By a commissioner : These blows tliat are re- 
 ceived are communicated to the solid wheel and the 
 axle? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it frequently produces accidents we know 
 nothing of. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Greene, resuming : Accidents may occur 
 somewhat remote from the crossing which are attributa- 
 ble to the accident received at the crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In reference to the injury actually resulting to the 
 rolling stock from stoppages at crossings as compared to 
 the ordinary stoppages at stations, is there any differencej 
 and attributable to what cause ? 
 
 A. I claim that the damage by short stops at cross- 
 ings is more serious than at stations as a general rule. 
 
 Q. At stations they may run by ? 
 
 A. They are not obliged to stand at a certain point; 
 they are always off running a crossing; at stations they 
 may go a hundred or two or three hundred feet and it 
 
172 
 
 gg4 "Ot be a serious matter, but at a crossing you are obliged 
 to stop before you strike it. 
 
 Q. If there liappeus to be anything on the crossing^ 
 or the engineer cannot see it in a fog or storm, the train 
 is brought up all standing, and there is considerable 
 damage ? 
 
 A. That is the reason that I say there is more dam- 
 age at a crossing. 
 
 Q. With the strictest rules and all the safe-guards 
 085 that science is able to throw around these crossings, is it 
 not a fact that accidents cannot be wholly avoided ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is a fact ; we found it so upon our 
 road with all the care we can possibly exercise ; we have 
 had several serious accidents with targets and watchmen ; 
 with good men we have had serious accidents. 
 
 Q. Ill regard to the liability of accidents, greater lia- 
 bility in cases of fog or severe storms? 
 
 A. Those I believe I have already spoken of. 
 68G Q. As being likely to contribute to accidents? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it makes a crossing a very uncomfortable 
 thing if you can't avoid it. 
 
 Q. Now, as to this particular crossing, from your ex- 
 amination and knowledge and observation of it, is it not 
 a fact that there are other vei y serious objections to a 
 grade crossing at this point? 
 
 A. I think there are very serious objections. 
 
 Q. Will you now, in your own way, proceed to state 
 ' some that occur to you ? 
 
 A. I should say the paralysis of business at that point, 
 that is, impossibility to do the business in a satisfactory 
 way with an additional crossing at that point, with an- 
 other crossing — there is oiie already there. 
 
 Q. In what way ? Describe liow it would operate to 
 paralyze business ? 
 
 A. I should say that the difficulties of handlino- a 
 train at that point, getting the cars through on account 
 
Latirncr.J 173 
 
 of the possibility of liaviiig trains come up immediately 688 
 after upon this road that it is proposed to cross there, 
 come np to that crossing immediately after the others, 
 and so holding the trains of the other company, or the 
 one or the other, to such an extent that it would make 
 it impossible to transact the business satisfactorily or 
 thoroughly without some other device or some other 
 method, which I cannot see now can be devised; as it is, 
 from my observation, they have every difficulty in han- 
 dling the business at that point; to put another crossing t'89 
 at this point would double that difficulty, especially if 
 the road which is about to cross puts a yard on either 
 side of that crossing, and has to do business itself, it 
 would certainly increase the expense of the road very 
 largely, the Lake Shore Eoad or the roads operating 
 there; it would require the crossing of seven distinct 
 tracks besides two other tracks which are subs, or one of 
 them is used and the other is not at the pi-esent used, 
 but there are seven distinct tracks ; it would cut the 
 track which is used for handling empty cars on the north 
 side, it would cut that one directly in two. 
 
 Q. That is the dock track ? 
 
 A. That is the dock track — and render it very diffi- 
 cult indeed to handle the business on that track; they 
 could not handle it as a whole ; it would require the 
 additional keeping up of seven additional crossings, 
 
 which would cost a very serious sum to both roads in „^_, 
 
 091 
 the handling of their business and their trains, and dam- 
 age their wheels and rolling stock, to say nothing of tlie 
 question of stopping both roads ; it would lose a very 
 great amount of time to the employees of both roads, 
 especially to the older road, which has already an estab- 
 lished business at that point which requires the tracks as 
 they are, transacting in a proper way, and which have 
 difficulty at the present time to handle the business as it 
 is. 
 
174 
 
 Gffi Q. So that you are satisfied, as I underslaud you, 
 tliat a crossing there wonki very materially and seriously 
 embarrass the Lake Shore Company in the transaction of 
 its business, and that from your examination of it you 
 are unable to devise any scheme by which that injury 
 can be averted ? 
 
 A. Any scheme to prevent that loss as a crossing at 
 that grade. 
 
 Q. The only way to avoid it would be by an over- 
 093 crossing ? 
 
 A. I can see uo other. 
 
 Q. No change of constrnction by the Lake Sliore 
 Companv of the location of its tracks would avoid it? 
 
 A. I cannot say that any change there would satisfy 
 mo as the owner of the property. 
 
 Q. What would you say as to the fact that this pro- 
 posed crossing is in so close proximity to the present cross- 
 ing as made, presenting more serious objections than if 
 ^'"'■^ it were further removed from it or distant from it, in 
 other words, bringing two crossings, of two different 
 roads, at grade so close together I 
 
 A. If it were very far removed, so that it were not 
 in the wa\- of handling trains, entirely removed from 
 that point so that it was not in the way of handling of 
 their cars in connection with the Erie Koad, and with 
 their yard, that is a different question, a question of less 
 import — erosshig ; it would be a question of whether it 
 was possible to go over. 
 
 Q. K you were to locate a crossing across the Lake 
 Shore Company's track anywhere, conld yon select a 
 place which would present greater objections and ob- 
 stacles, on tiie part of the Lake Shore Company, tlian 
 the precise point that they have located their proposed 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. Xot unless I slammed it through the center of 
 their yards. 
 
Latimer. j l75 
 
 Q. What do yon say as to whether or not there would qqq 
 be a serious objection to changing the line of the tracks 
 to the sontherly of the transfer-house, which connect the 
 Erie with the Lake Shore, so as to cross the main track 
 of the Erie south of the transfer-house, or west of it, and 
 run around upon the west side of it; what do you say as 
 to the effect, whether there would be a serious objection 
 to it on account of its crossing the main tracks of the 
 Erie road ? 
 
 A. Changing all those tracks ? (07 
 
 Q. Taking the tracks that now run up on the south- 
 erly side of the transfer-house, and ruiming them across 
 the main track of the Erie and down there ? 
 
 A. And put this road where ? 
 
 Q. Leaving that road as it is, I am simply speaking 
 of such a change as that ; would there be a serious ob- 
 jection to changing this, arising from the fact that it 
 would cross the main track of the Erie at grade — all of 
 those six tracks crossing ; those red lines are the Erie '^^^ 
 track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the blue are the Lake Shore? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The question is, would there not be a serious ob- 
 jection to crossing the main track of the Erie by bring- 
 ing that connection from there around that way, and 
 crossing here ; wouldn't it be a serious objection ? 
 
 Q. By a commissioner: Do you mean carrying all 
 those tracks or uniting them in one ? 
 
 Q. Mr. Greene : One or all of them, increasing the 
 number of tracks across here and making the connection 
 in that direction ? 
 
 A. I should say that was objectionable. 
 
 Q. It would be making another crossing across the 
 Erie? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
176 
 
 700 Q- J"sf ^s many more grade crossings as you put in 
 additional tracks across the main line of the Erie? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; there is no question about that. 
 
 Q. Have you made a careful study and investigation 
 to determine what the cost of such detention as j'ou have 
 mentioned vcould be per train, the additional cost or ex- 
 pense, and upon that subject have you taken the opinion 
 of all your men under you to obtain facts from which 
 you have made a careful estimate and carefully consid- 
 
 701 ered that question? 
 
 A. I have had cccasion heretofore to bring this ques- 
 tion up among all of my road-masters and assistants, and 
 to discuss the question of crossings. 
 
 Q. How recently have you made that the subject of 
 investigation ? 
 
 A. That is a pamphlet that is just out in regard to 
 the investigation I have made with my men. 
 
 Q. When was that investigation made ? 
 
 702 A. Last November ; I was simply having a discus- 
 sion with my men in regard to crossing, and having each 
 one give his opinion. 
 
 Q. Those were men employed upon the N. P. & O. 
 road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you proceed in your own way and state your 
 
 conclusions upon that subject as to the detention and 
 
 time and the cost ? 
 703 
 
 A. Well, the cost of a crossing has always been a 
 
 difficult one to handle and say what the cost of a cross- 
 ing is, the cost. 
 
 A. There are only certain methods by which you can 
 arrive at the value of a stop on a crossing, by which it 
 may be arrived at as a maximum and a minimim ; as I 
 have demonstrated, or at least I have proved by exami- 
 nation that it takes live minutes of time to stop and that 
 five miuntes of time is of a certain value ; I could have 
 
Latimer.] 177 
 
 run one mile in that time ; now I will take it as a mile, 704 
 and I will see what the value of a mile is worth ; what 
 is the value of a mile ; I have rated the value of a train 
 mile at not less than seventy-five cents ; the value of a 
 train mile upon our road is worth — 
 
 Mr. Locke : The Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. The Lake Shore is worth about the same ; there 
 is not very much difference ; it will not be very far out 
 of the way, you might say twenty-five cents, more or 
 less. 705 
 
 Mr. Greene, resuming: Substantially the same upon 
 the two lines ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I guess theirs is less, but say seventy- 
 five cents, and seventy-five cents, then I arrive at as the 
 value of the stop, or of miming one mile. 
 
 Q. Of each train ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is a maximum ; I will put it as a 
 maximum seventy-five cents, and I will put it anywhere 
 from fifty to seventy-five cents ; I will take it fifty ; I "^^^ 
 would not take it as less than fifty cents ; some persons 
 have put it as low as forty cents; now taking that as a 
 basis, and listening to the evidence in this case, I was 
 obliged to take the number of cars that had been given 
 here, 538,222 through cars for a year. 
 
 Mr. Locke : Is that forty cents per car ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; for the stopping of a train, including all 
 the expenses of a train, for instance the value of a car, 
 the value of the repairs in the car, the cost of the loco- 
 motive, tJie running of the locomotive, etc. 
 
 Mr. Locke : The interest on the money ? 
 
 A. If I did that I would have to put it a little lar- 
 ger ; then there is the trainmen, and it sums up to about 
 seventy-five dollars for a hundred miles ; taking that as 
 a basis and saying that five minutes is worth a mile, and 
 it is a mile, five minutes of loss, which is the same thing, 
 it is a loss of five minutes, and somebody has got to pay 
 
Missing Page 
 
Latimer.] 179 
 
 paralysis would be upon an additional crossing there in 712 
 the business is something that I cannot tell; I cannot 
 calculate it. 
 
 Q. Would it increase the amount? 
 
 A. It certainly would very largely increase the 
 amount at that point. 
 
 Q. The estimate that you have given is based upon 
 the ordinary crossing ? 
 
 A. Upon the ordinary, and upon the crossing at the 
 point with the evidence before. 713 
 
 Q. Taking into account the switching done at that 
 point? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is a new method of calculation. 
 
 Q. As T understand, in cutting down the estimate 
 which you believe to be correct, in cutting that down 
 fifty per cent, from what you believe the actual cost 
 would be, reduces this capital some, that which would be 
 the interest upon five hundred thousand dollars a year. 
 
 A. This is based upon the evidence that I have in "* 
 regard to the number of cars passing and repassing those 
 crossings. 
 
 Q. As stated by you ? 
 
 A. As stated by me ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there anything further upon that subject that 
 you desire to state ? 
 
 A. I don't know that there is; the wear on the 
 wheels is taken into consideration in the regard to the 
 cost of the train. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to whether there are advan- 
 tages in crossing over streets and thoroughfares in the 
 city where there is an over-crossing instead of a grade? 
 
 A. It is undoubtedly to the advantage of all roads to 
 do it if they can, unless there is an insuperable objection ; 
 wherever you could do it of course it ought to be done. 
 
 Q. In this estimate you have not included or taken 
 into consideration the injury to the thi-ough traflic upon 
 
180 
 
 716 the Erie road at this point, but only the Lake Shore and 
 the cars that were transferi'ed at that point from the 
 Erie to the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. I was only discussing one road at that time. 
 
 Q. So that iit addition to tliis sum that you have 
 given, this cost, there would be the injury and cost to 
 the Erie Company ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It would be relatively in the same portion ? 
 
 717 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Taking the number of trains and cars that pass 
 there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now are not the delays and detentions greater 
 at a grade crossing, where there are passenger as well as • 
 freight trains, than where are only freight trains passing? 
 
 A. The passenger trains are frequently detained on 
 account of the freight blocking the ground. 
 
 Q. That is not the point. Here on the map it ap- 
 pears that this Erie track is used solely for freight ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. These proposed tracks, if used. for freight and pas- 
 sengers, would the percentage of delay be necessarily 
 greater ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; undoubtedly, on account of their hold- 
 ing freights frequently ; there was a case I noticed this 
 morning, they held a number of freights waiting while I 
 was there, waiting for the passenger train to come out ; 
 that is, there were several locomotives held waiting for 
 the train on the Lake Shore road. 
 
 Q. By a commissioner: If that Erie track was to 
 be nsed also for a passenger track, you think it would 
 increase it 'i 
 
 A. Yes, sir; that is, the proportion would be o-i-eatei- ? 
 
 Q. The average detention per train would be ci-eater 
 
Latimer x] 181 
 
 if a portion of the trains orosBiug were passenger, than 709 
 if they were all freight ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; decidedly greater. 
 
 Cy'oss examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. When did you arrive in this city ? 
 
 A. Last night. 
 
 Q. What time ? 
 
 A. Half-past eight o'clock. 
 
 Q. Where did you go, when jou came here ? 721 
 
 A. I went directly to the Tifi't House. 
 
 Q. When did you see any of tliese gentlemen first ? 
 
 A. I saw one of them last night. 
 
 Q. Which one ? 
 
 A. Mr. Hawks, the engineer. 
 
 Q. How much time did you spend with him last 
 night ? 
 
 A. About half an hour. 
 
 Q. Then you went to bed, and what time did you '^'^^ 
 meet them this morning? 
 
 A. I went with him at eight o'clock and went on the 
 ground. 
 
 Q. How long did you stay on the ground ? 
 
 A. About half an hour, or probably three-quarters. 
 
 Q. Then where did you go ? 
 
 A. I came directly here. 
 
 Q. Yon have staid here all the time since? 
 
 A. No, sir, I went up to the hotel for twenty min- 
 utes and came back here. 
 
 Q. Staid here until the adjournment ? 
 
 A. I came here and heard every word that was said. 
 
 Q. Left here at one o'clock and came back at two ? 
 
 A. About ten minutes after two. 
 
 Q. How did you happen to come down here ? 
 
 A. I was asked to by the Lake Shore Company. 
 
 Q. Who asked you? 
 
182 
 
 7:^4 A. Mr. Payne asked me — no, Mr. Mason was the 
 first, or Mr. Getzendanner. 
 
 Q. When did he ask you ? 
 
 A. He asked me four days ago, I think. 
 
 Q. Did he eome after you again yesterday? 
 
 A. He told me he would let me know what time it 
 would be necessary to have my evidence. 
 
 Q. Did he serve any subpoena upon you ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 735 Q. So that you are a volunteer witness ? 
 
 A. So that I am a Volunteer witness. 
 
 Q. You hope for favors at the hands of the Lake 
 Shore ? 
 
 A. I have nothing to ask of them, and not to be paid 
 by them. 
 
 Q. How long is your Atlantic and Great Western 
 road? 
 
 A. Six hundred miles. 
 ' Q. Commences where ? 
 
 A. Salamanca. 
 
 Q. How far does it extend ? 
 
 A. Dayton, Ohio. 
 
 Q. You commence at Salamanca and run to Warren? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have a crossing of the Dunkirk, Allegany 
 Valley and Pittsburg? 
 
 A. Not at Warren. 
 ^^'^ Q. Irvington ? 
 
 A. No, sir, we don't run to Irvington, we come to 
 Jamestown. 
 
 Q. They cross you before you come to Falconers ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is a grade-crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where do you intersect with the next railroad 'i 
 
 A, At Corry. 
 
Latimer x] l83 
 
 Q. There the Pittsburgh and Erie cross yon ? ■^og 
 
 A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The Philadelphia and Erie ? 
 
 A. Or, the Philadelphia and Erie, not called tiic 
 Pittsburg, Titusville and Western. 
 
 Q. Buffalo, Pittsburg and Western ? 
 
 A. Buffalo, Pittsburg and Western. 
 
 Q. Both grade-crossings ? 
 
 A. Both grade-crossings, I am sorry to say. 
 
 Q. Then you go how far before you strike another 7^9 
 railroad ? 
 
 A. Then we come to Ammassy crossing, east of 
 Greenville, that is another grade-crossing. 
 
 Q. Then you go on to the Erie and Pittsburg? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is another grade-crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then where do you go ? 
 
 A. Then we come to Levittsburg — no, one at what is 
 called Latimer, named after me, I suppose. 
 
 Q. That is a grade-crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What road? 
 
 A. The Mahoning coal road, then the Ashtabnla and 
 Pittsburgh road. 
 
 Q. That is a grade-crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, and the Painesville and Youngstown is ^., , 
 
 Jo 1 
 
 another grade-crossing, and there we come to Levitts- 
 burg, and that is another one ? 
 
 Q. Go on. 
 
 A. Then we come to the Cleveland and Pittsburgh. 
 
 Q. What is that ? 
 
 A. That is another grade-crossing. 
 
 Q. Then, go on. 
 
 A. Then we come to the Conotton Valley road at 
 Kent. 
 
184 
 
 732 Q- What is that ? 
 
 A. That is an over-crossing. 
 
 Q. How many grade-crossings have yon got on yonr 
 road and branches ? 
 
 A. I think we have twenty-eight. 
 
 Q. Do yon attribnte the continued insolvency of the 
 Atlantic and Great Western Road to these grade-cross- 
 ings? 
 
 A. We have to run our train sixty miles an hour on 
 
 733 account of tliose crossings. 
 
 Q. When did you make this intricate calculation ? 
 
 A. I did it right in this room. 
 
 Q. While we were taking testimony I 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. While yon were trying to follow ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir : the latter part of it. 
 
 Q. Would it modify the result of your figures if you 
 
 should assume that under the existing conditions of af- 
 
 734 
 
 fairs, the Lake Shore road had to stop at that crossing 
 
 anyway, whether there was a crossing there or not ? 
 
 Q. Would it make any difference with the result of 
 your calculation provided every train on the Lake Shore 
 road, for reasons totally disconnected with the crossing, 
 was compelled to come to a stop before reaching the 
 point of crossing, whether the crossing was there or not ? 
 
 A. That is— 
 
 Q. Answer it, yes or no? 
 
 A. I am not going to dodge any question. 
 
 Q. Answer it, yes or no ? 
 
 A. I want to answer that question exactly ri^ht as 
 near as 1 know how. You mean a crossing already be- 
 ing there? 
 
 Q. No, sir ; 1 am not saying anything about a cross- 
 ing there? 
 
 A. Give me the question again. 
 
 Q. Would it make any difference with tlie result of 
 
 735 
 
Latimer xj 185 
 
 your calculation provided every train ^n the Lake Shore 7:3(5 
 road, for reasons totallj' disconnected with the crossing, 
 ivas compelled to come to a stop before reaching the 
 point of crossing, whether the crossing was there or not ? 
 
 A. Of course if there was no crossing there, I would 
 have to modify it. 
 
 Q. It would wipe it out altogether, wouldn't it? 
 
 A. The stopping of the train there would be a stop- 
 ping. 
 
 By a commissioner: I understand this witness to say "^37 
 that his estimate was based upon other crossings, not 
 this crossing? 
 
 A. Any crossing of that amount of business. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Locke, resuming : Then I will ask you 
 this : Do you mean to swear that every grade crossing 
 of the Atlantic and Great Western road costs you fifty- 
 seven thousand dollars a year ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; by no means. 
 
 73 S 
 Q. I will ask you another question : How much 
 
 would it diminish your estimate provided you eliminate 
 
 everything connected with the stoppage of the train at 
 
 the crossing ? 
 
 A. Everything but the stoppage. 
 
 Q. Everything connected with the stopping of the 
 train at the crossing ? 
 
 A. Eliminating everything connected with the stop- 
 ping? 739 
 
 Q. With tiie stopping of the train at the crossing? 
 • A. So that there would be no stop at all ? 
 
 Q. You will eliminate all that element in figuring 
 that cost ? 
 
 A. I don't understand it. 
 
 Q. Suppose you eliminate from your estimate all ex- 
 penses connected with the stopping of the train, how 
 much would the cost of the crossing be ? 
 
 A. I don't~exactly see the point. 
 
186 
 
 740 Q- Question read by the stenographer, as follows: 
 Suppose yon eliminate from yonr estimate all expenses 
 connected with the stopping of the train, how mnch 
 would the cost of the crossing be? 
 
 A. Well, that requires a calculation wliich I cannot 
 make for you. 
 
 Q. Why cannot you make it? 
 
 A. Not just now. 1 could figure it up, probably, but 
 it requires time. 
 
 741 Q. Will you figure it up for us? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I will see what I can do for you. Of 
 course T don't want to avoid the (juestion. 
 
 Q. You said, if I understood you, that one great 
 danger connected with this crossing was that there 
 would be collisions? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; vei'y i;reat danger of collisions. 
 
 Q. And that foggy weather would be very sei'ious in 
 that regard ? 
 '^■^"^ A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose foggy weather would affect it because 
 in foggy weather the trains wonld not know when they 
 were near the crossing and would not stop ? 
 
 A. Yes ; tliey would not know it until they came 
 close to it and stopped suddenly. 
 
 Q. Don't you suppose the existence of that bridge 
 
 over Buffalo River, fifteen hundred feet away, would be 
 
 sufficient to give notice to every engineer that he was 
 743 . . . JO 
 
 approaching this crossing? 
 
 A. It wonld be a very good one, but it might be mis- 
 taken for some other bridge. 
 
 Q. He might think it was some other bridge. The 
 first bridge, I think, that is of any consequence, is at 
 Erie. He could not mistake it for the Erie bridge ? 
 
 A. I don't know where the nearest bridge is, but it 
 is a very good laud-mark. 
 
Latimer x] 187 
 
 Q. That bridge would eliminate a good deal of that 744 
 trouble in case of fog ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that it would be a great 
 deal better if this crossing were at least a train's length 
 from the Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, this crossing, if it is only one hundred feet 
 from the Erie crossing, or two hundred away from the 745 
 Erie crossing, would only require one target, would it, 
 for them both ? 
 
 A. That is true. 
 
 Q. It would only require one target man or one set 
 of tai'get men ? 
 
 A. That is all. 
 
 Q. It would only require one stop for both crossings? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^^g 
 
 Q. If it were fifteen hundi-ed feet away, you would 
 have to have separate targets and separate target men, 
 and you would have to have separate stops? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Still, you think this crossing would be better for 
 the Lake Shore road if it were fifteen hundred feet away 
 from an existing crossing ? 
 
 A. Decidedly. 747 
 
 Q. Although it should occasionally occasion the ad- 
 ditional stoppage of each train ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Assuming that the Lake Shore Road always has 
 the right of way, and that the Erie Road always has the 
 right of way, and the Lackawanna comes last, and the 
 Lackawanna is the only train that has to stop at the 
 crossing, and the Lake Shore Road does not have to stop 
 at the crossing, would that effect your calculation in its 
 results ? 
 
 A. It would effect it in some ineasui'e. But it would 
 
';4g libt effect the delays that take place there. The delays 
 take place necessarily there on account of the impossi- 
 bility of getting ont to do the work ; and there are de- 
 lays all over the road on that account. 
 
 Q. It would not effect your calculation where you 
 estimate that five hundred thonsand cars have got to 
 cross this crossing seven or eight times? 
 
 A. I believe the delays alone all over the road is an 
 immense sum of money which I shouldn't wonder if it 
 749 was as much as that, even throwing out the question of 
 stopping. 
 
 Q. Can you calculate those? 
 
 A. You can calculate it worth just so much money. 
 
 Q. The question how long a certain train would be 
 delayed, would that have any dependence whatever on 
 the question whether the train had stopped at the cross- 
 ing or not? 
 
 A. The stop of the cars is one thing and the delay is 
 '°^ another, but delays are calculable and so are stops. A 
 delay is a perfectly calculable thing. 
 
 Q. Do delays in switches in the yard have any effect 
 outside of the yard ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They do? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You think that a delay in switching in that yard 
 would have an effect upon the trains all along the Lake 
 Shore road ? 
 
 A. For some distance. 
 
 Q. Because of preventing trains from coming in ? 
 
 A. It prevents their coming in and going out; it 
 holds them right there. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the manner in 
 which these tracks are run ? 
 
 A. Something ; I was there this morning and exam- 
 ined ; I have a general knowledge of that thing. 
 
Latimer x] 189 
 
 Q. Doesn't the fact that every train has to stop there ';,-,2 
 entirely eliminate your calculations, entirely destroy the 
 force of your calculations? 
 
 A. No, sir ; it does not. 
 
 Q. Did you not, in your direct examination, in telling 
 how you came to that result, expressly state that all you 
 figured upon was the delay of trains? 
 
 A. I gave you two bases of calculations and said that 
 one proved the other. 
 
 Q. Did you not attribute the entire cost which you 753 
 gave us to the delay of trains, and figure that as so many 
 miles of operation of railroads ? 
 
 A. I gave you that in the table and stated at the 
 same time ; I stated that the time and calculations 
 agreed. 
 
 Q. If every train has to stop anyway does it not en- 
 tirely take the foundations out of your calculations? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Does it take any part of it out? '°* 
 
 A. It would take out a portion of it. 
 
 Q. You spoke about wear and tear, the cost to rolling 
 stock and wheels from stopping the train at that point, 
 the application of brakes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That should all be eliminated in case the strain 
 
 has to stop anyway, shouldn't it ? 
 
 A. I think the stops in the yard would be doubled ; 
 
 Too 
 you would have to have a great many more stops there 
 
 than you have now, double as many stops on account of 
 
 other trains passing over. 
 
 Q. That would depend to some extent on the extent 
 of the use of the Lackawanna? 
 
 A. If they did no business it would be a dead letter. 
 
 Q. Have you assumed as your basis of calculation any 
 particular amount of business on the Lackawanna road ? 
 
190 
 
 756 A. I presume they will have a large amount of busi- 
 ness. 
 
 Q. Have you assumed any particular maximum or 
 minimum as the standard of their business? 
 
 A. No ; 1 have not. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't that enter into the calculation to some 
 extent ; I suppose if they were running a train across 
 every two minutes it would be more expense than if they 
 were running a train every two weeks? 
 
 757 A. Very considerably. 
 
 Q. You have not taken any particular quantum of 
 business upon their part as a standard of your calculation ? 
 
 A. I presume, it being a road with a double track, 
 that they calculate to do a very large business. 
 
 Q. Have you figured for a very large business? 
 
 A. I only know that there was a double track pro- 
 posed and I supposed ; 1 did not figure upon their busi- 
 ness, but no road is going to build a double track unless 
 '^■^ they calculate to do a large amount of business. 
 
 Q. You have assumed that every single stop of every 
 single train at that point is to be attributed to the Lack- 
 awanna road, have you not? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you not figured the stoppage on every sin- 
 gle Lake Shore train on that road? 
 
 A. All the Lake Shore trains, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have figured the stop on every Lake Shore 
 7o!) . . , "^ ■' 
 
 train i 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have calculated that that stop is occasioned 
 by our crossing ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then why should you say that is the expense of 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. I should say that the additional crossings there 
 will make just as much expense as there is now. 
 
Latimer xj 191 
 
 Q. Would it depend at all upon the usage of the road i 76O 
 A. Putting anotiier crossing there will make an ad- 
 ditional expense nearly the same as there is now. 
 By a commissioner: Q. By the Erie crossing? 
 A. Yes, sir ; I say paralysis of the business will make 
 it just about the same amount; I say an additional 
 amount of business there would be required. 
 
 Q. If one train happens to go through there when 
 there is no Lackawaima train in sight, or wanting the 
 target, or calling for it, there is no occasion for delay on '^^ 
 the part of the Lake Shore train, is there ? 
 
 A. Yes, but I consider. 
 
 Q. Is there ? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Then that train should be counted out in your esti- 
 mate, shouldn't it? 
 
 A. There are seven crossings there tliat I am obliged 
 to take into consideration. 
 
 Q. I want yes or no ? 
 
 A. I cannot say yes or no to a question of that kind, 
 there are seven crossings there. 
 
 Q. Does it make any odds whether there are seven 
 or seven hundred crossings, providing there is no train 
 coming on the other road ? 
 
 A. Yes, you have got to watch seven lines instead of 
 one. 
 
 Q. You have got one target, have you not ? ^^^ 
 
 A. That is not going to control seven different tracks. 
 
 Q. It cannot? 
 
 A. No, sir, I should think not. 
 
 Q. You have got a pretty thorough acquaintance with 
 the railroad business in this country, have you not ; do 
 you know anything about the Grand Central depot in 
 New York? 
 
 A. I have been in it, but I don't recollect it partic- 
 ularly. 
 
192 
 
 ij'(j4 Q. Have you been outside of it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen the system of tracks between 
 50th and 56th streets? 
 
 A. I iiave not observed thein particularly. 
 
 Q. Don't you know, as an expert, that every single 
 train that comes out of the Grand Central depot cross- 
 ing at grade all the tracks which lead into that depot? 
 
 A. No, sir, I do not. 
 
 765 Q- Assume that it is so, that every train going into 
 
 the Grand Central depot passes at grade the tracks of 
 
 the outgoing train, and that every outgoing train crosses 
 
 the tracks of the incoming trains, what should you sa}' ? 
 
 A. Is it a freight road ? 
 
 Q. No, it is a passenger road. 
 
 A. Only passengers ? 
 
 Q. The Harlem freight ? 
 
 A. They could easily handle it with nothing but pas- 
 760 sengers, but passengers all under one accord, it is under 
 one management. 
 
 Q. No, sir, the New York and the New Haven, the 
 Harlem road, the Hudson River road, they are all run 
 by one dispatcher, just as these crossing are run by one 
 target man precisely ; you spoke of the danger of acci- 
 dents? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You are crossed, as 1 understand you, at Falcon- 
 '^^'^ er's by the Dunkirk, Allegheny & Pittsburgh ? 
 
 A. The D. A. V. & P. crossing. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had an accident there ? 
 
 A. I think there was one. 
 
 Q. When? 
 
 A. About three years ago. 
 
 Q. What was done ? 
 
 A. I can't remember, an engine ran into another, I 
 think. 
 
Latimer x] 193 
 
 Q. It was not enough of an accident tliat it made 768 
 much of an impression npon you ? 
 
 A. No, sir, because there wasn't anybody killed; we 
 never had anybody killed ; we have done a good deal of 
 damage to material, but fortunately nobody killed. 
 
 Q. After our conversation aren't you willing to admit 
 that your conclusion of $57,500 a year needs revision ? 
 
 A. I have cut it down half. 
 
 Q. Don't you think that it is careless work to come 
 in here and testify to a calculation without -xssuming any 700 
 standard of business over the crossing road ? 
 
 Mr. Milburn : He says he takes it as a double track 
 railroad? 
 
 A. I don't know what business they are going to have 
 on the road, but as it is a double track road it iiuist be a 
 pretty big road. 
 
 Q. If you don't know what kind of business they are 
 going to have wh}' can you here swear to a calculation ? 
 
 A. I will tell you that my judgment is, that the dam- ' '" 
 age — that the cost — to an additional crossing will be jnst 
 about as much as what is there now. 
 
 Q. You think it would ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is the best that I could give you as 
 an opinion. 
 
 Q. Why ? 
 
 A. Because I say that it is an insuperable objection ; if 
 I were managing the road, and you asked my opinion, I 
 should give you that ; as the one managing it, I should 
 feel it so. 
 
 Q. Is that the best reason that you can give ? 
 
 A. That is according to my judgment, it is not biased. 
 
 Q. Will you tell me why this crossing will double 
 the expense, or will double the trouble occasioned by the 
 existing crossing? 
 
 A. You know that where yon have one train on one 
 road, and you have another road coming in with just as 
 
* 194 
 
 772 many trains, or likely to be as many trains as that in time, 
 with the same difMculty stopping you, after a while you 
 will not be able to do your business at all. 
 
 Q. From that yon figure out that it will cost $57,500 
 a year ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, and may be more. 
 
 Q. Will you explain why the trouble should be dou- 
 bled provided the stoppage of the train enters into the 
 computation at all : if the stoppage of the train is caused 
 ''73 by one crossing, the addition of another crossing would 
 not add to the trouble at all, would it ? 
 
 A. The embarrassment and the stoppage of trains — 
 
 Q. That is poetical ? 
 
 A. Tiiat is not poetical ; it is real. 
 
 Q. You Siiy the trouble occasioned by a crossing is, 
 first, stoppage ; second, wear and tear of wheels : third, 
 danger of accidents ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 '^'^^ Q. Mr. Greene : You have left out delay ? 
 
 Q. Fourth, delay; if you have another crossing put 
 right along side of the first one you don't have any more 
 stopping, do 3'ou, tlian you have with one? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Then you sliould not count that a second time I 
 
 A. Wait a minute — I mean no more stopping on the 
 
 whole ; I can't even say that, for you will have an addi- 
 
 ^ tional amount of stopping, because trains on the other 
 
 road may not come exactly at tlie same time, and they 
 
 will hold trains of a difl'erent class. 
 
 Q. You will have as' much stopping^ 
 
 A. No, sir ; but you will have a diminution of 
 stopping. 
 
 Q. The cost would not be quite as much a year 'i 
 
 A. No, sir, not quite ; but I say that half of the 
 amount of that will be fairly chargeable to that. 
 
 Q. How do you figure that half amount ? 
 
Latimer xj 195 
 
 A. In stoppages, delays around that crossing, and in- ^•j'g 
 jury to tlie rolling stock 
 
 Q. What per cent, do you figure, calling the whole 
 thing a hundred — what per cent, do you iigure for stop- 
 pages ? 
 
 A. Well, I can't say. 
 
 Q. How much for delays? 
 
 A. Just according to the time of the delay. 
 
 Q. How much for injury by accident? 
 
 A. Just about insurance, I suppose. 777 
 
 Q. How much for interference of business ? 
 
 A. Vast. 
 
 Q. How much for injury to the rolling stock ? 
 
 A. Well, that is very considerable. 
 
 Q. What per cent.? 
 
 A. That I could uot tell you. 
 
 Q. So that you could not tell what the percentage of 
 any element entering in the matter is, but yet you are 
 willing to swear that the whole thing amounts to so many ' '° 
 dollars ? 
 
 A. I can calculate the amount of damage to wheels, 
 and come at it either by a minimum or maximum. 
 
 Q. Uid you hear Mr. Buffiim testify here this fore- 
 noon ? 
 
 A. I heard all the testimony. 
 
 Q. Did you not hear Mr. Buffum swear that every 
 train stopped at this point, both coming and going? 
 
 A. No, I did not hear him say so. 
 
 Q. Still you insist upon the proposition that if the 
 commission should remove this proposed crossing fifteen 
 hundred feet away, and therefore occasion a new stop- 
 page for every train coming, that it would be better for 
 the Lake Shore road ; I understand you that? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think so decidedly. 
 
 Q. Then don't it mathematically follow that it is a 
 
196 
 
 780 kind of a benefit to a railroad to be compelled to stop its 
 trains ? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Don't it mathematically that two stoppages are 
 better than one, if tiiat is so ? 
 
 A. No, because there are a great many of them. Did 
 you notice in what I said that there were 522,000 oars 
 that passed over there, and that some of these cars passed 
 over twice, so that there were 73,000 c^rs that passed 
 
 781 over four times ? 
 
 Q. Yes. 
 
 A. And tliere are fifty trains. 
 
 Q. You estimated that every single one of those cars 
 would be delayed five minutes by the Lackawanna 
 crossing. 
 
 ilr. Greene: No, sir, he did not say that. 
 
 A. A general delay of trains. 
 
 Q. Do yon mean to say that the Erie crossing there 
 in your judgment costs the Lake Shore road $57,500 
 every year ? 
 
 A. I don't kiiow that I would like to pay it for that. 
 
 Q. Will you please figure and tell us how much in 
 ycjur judgment, first, the Erie crossing costs the I^ake 
 Shore j-oad ; figure up first and give me how much the 
 Erie crossing there costs the Lake Shore road ; next, 
 how much the Erie and the proposed crossing of the 
 78S ^^'^''^^^^''^""'i '""^d together would cost the Lake Shore 
 road per year, assuming that the Lake Shore road 
 already, from reasons irrespective of the Lackawanna 
 crossing, are compelled to stop all trains at that point 
 already ? 
 
 A. Well, there you see you would have to go into the 
 question of the absolute necessity of transacting the 
 business which is already existing between the roads- 
 that is a question that is sometimes paramount to a "rade 
 crossing. 
 
La iincr x ] 197 
 
 Q. Go right ill on that and let us see how much the ^84 
 Lake Shore is damaged per year by the Erie crossing, 
 and how much both together will damage the Lake 
 Shore road, assuming that the trains have to stop there 
 already ? Figure it at your leisure, and I will call you 
 back ? 
 
 A. 1 cannot do that unless I take in the other ele- 
 ments too, of the question of what business they have to 
 do there. 
 
 Q. How did you make your other calculation then ",85 
 without those elements ? 
 
 Mr. Greene : He made the other calculation with the 
 elements. 
 
 Q. Use the same elements that you did before ? 
 
 A. I will have to take the business they are to have, 
 and that is a question of the expediency of having a cross- 
 ing for tlie purpose of transacting certain business; you 
 have a certain business to do, and you have got to have it 
 transacted in a certain place, and those questions arise '^^ 
 paramount to anything else. 
 
 Q. Figure this just exactly as you figured it before 
 when you gave us the $57,000, only separate the two ; 
 give us how much the Erie crossing costs the Lake 
 Shore, and secondly how much the two combined cost 
 the Lake Shore Eoad, and take any data that you had 
 before as the basis of your calculation ? 
 
 A. I will have to get the number of trains on tlie 
 Erie road. 
 
 Q. You did not have it before. 
 
 Mr. Milburn : He said that was the damage to tiie 
 Lake Shore. 
 
 Q. That is all that I am asking now. 
 
 A. If the commission want me to figure at it, I 
 don't know iiow I am going to do it unless 1 take it as a 
 separate question altogether, in which the business must 
 come in. 
 
198 
 
 788 Q. I understood the engineer to say that he un- 
 derstood your testimony in regard to $57,500, to apply 
 to the existing Erie crossing ? 
 
 By Com. Clark: I understood it to apply to any 
 crossing there ? 
 
 Mr. Greene : Any crossing where such an amount of 
 business as is transacted over the Lake Shore I'oad, was 
 transacted. 
 
 Q. What data did j-ou have to make your calculation 
 
 789 upon ? 
 
 A. I had the data of the witnesses before, whicli gave 
 me the business on the Lake Shore road. 
 
 Q. Did you have any data in regard to the Erie 
 road ? 
 
 A. There was 73,000 cars per annum passing between 
 the Erie and the other road, and that they passed over 
 that crossing four times, therefore such a crossing as tliat 
 would cost so much. 
 
 790 Q_ Then you see you start first with the business 
 of the Lake Shore Road, and second with the transfer 
 business of the Erie road, and you say that the Erie 
 crossing costs the Lake Shore $57,500 a year — that is 
 where you come out ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now yon say that the Lackawanna crossing al- 
 most contiguous, will cost as much more, do yon ? 
 
 A. I said that to be safe ; I would take it at half 
 
 Q. That is, you would knock the Erie off? 
 
 A. I think it would really cost the Lake Shore tliat 
 amount of money. 
 
 Q. For the Erie crossing, or the Lackawanna cross- 
 ing? 
 
 A. For such a crossing as is there. 
 
 Q. For the Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. For a crossing such as is there. 
 
Latimer xj 199 
 
 Q. Then yon say that the Lackawanna crossing will 793 
 cost it $28,000 a year more ? 
 
 A. I should judge it would. 
 
 Q. Now, one of the items which you figure into the 
 expense ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, how many dollars of that $28,000 do you 
 charge to the stoppage of trains ? 
 
 A. It is all on a basis of the delays of trains. 
 
 Q. Just answer that question, how many dollars of 79.3 
 the $28,000 do you charge to the stoppage of trains, in 
 round numbers? 
 
 A. I would not like to make a guess at it. 
 
 Q. Can you not compute it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I suppose it might be computed. 
 
 Q. How many dollars do you charge to the stoppage 
 of trains in the computation that you have jtestified to ? 
 
 A. I took the matter as a whole. 
 
 Q. Did you guess at the whole thing? '''94 
 
 A. No, sir; I did not guess it, I calculated it as I 
 show you, but there is a basis of delay to all the trains ' 
 coming to that crossing. 
 
 Q. How many trains do you calculate would be de- 
 layed at that crossing? 
 
 A. That they all would be delayed some. 
 
 Q. That every train that came there would be de- 
 layed ? 
 
 795 
 
 A. Yes, but that the average would be so much. 
 
 Q. You figured the average at five minutes? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, as a basis. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that in your judgment as an 
 engineer, at that crossing every train that comes there 
 is delayed five minutes ? 
 
 A. An average of it, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon think it is ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
200 
 
 100 Q. How many hours does that make of delay per 
 diem, every twenty-four hours? 
 
 A. Four hundred and ninety minutes, is it not? 
 Tliere are eiglity-six trains altogether — seven hours. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to testify that in your judgment 
 trains this day will wait seven hours on the Lake Shore 
 road for that target ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; there is no train that waits seven hours 
 for it. 
 
 797 Q. That the combined waiting of trains will aggre- 
 gate seven hours for that target ? 
 
 A. For that many trains? Yes. 
 
 Q. Yes. 
 
 A. Yes, sir, undoubtedly. Suppose yon count two 
 or three trains live minutes, or three trains ten minutes. 
 
 Q. Assume that the fact is that they liave not aver- 
 aged a minute apiece, the delays, one minute apiece, this 
 day, would that divide your twenty-eight thousand by 
 
 798 five? 
 
 A. Certainly it would. The delays of the target do 
 not prove anything, or all at least, because you may have 
 a train waiting in the yard. 
 
 Q. It is not trains that are waiting at the target that 
 you are talking about ? 
 
 A. Not altogether. 
 
 Q. You speak of the paralysis of business at that 
 
 point ? 
 
 'i99 . V 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is occasioned by these delays that you talk 
 about? 
 
 A. A difficulty of switching and handling business at 
 all. 
 
 Q. Has the Lake Shore railroad been in operation 
 all the time that you have been in the Atlantic and Great 
 Western road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Latimer x] 201 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard of any particular paralysis 800 
 of business on the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. Sometimes ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Because of tlie New Yorlc and Erie crossing at 
 Sandusky street ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon have because of the strikes perhaps ; but yon 
 have not on account of this New York and Erie crossing, 
 have you ? 
 
 A. No. 801 
 
 Q. Now then that Erie ^crossing has not paralyzed 
 the business of the Lake Shore road yet? 
 
 A. No, sir, because the business is joint there. 
 
 Q. Is it all joint do you understand ? 
 
 A. Principally. 
 
 Q. Who told you that ? 
 
 A. I can see it. 
 
 Q. Don't you know that all the grain that is shipped „„„ 
 from Buffalo by the Erie road and all the freight that 
 comes to the Erie road by water crosses that^track with- 
 out ever going upon the Lake Shore tracks except at 
 the point of crossing ? 
 
 A. Some of it goes the other way, don't it? 
 
 Q. No, sir; it all goes over there. Assume that all 
 grain that goes east by the Ei-ie road, that all freight for 
 water transit that comes by the Erie road, that all freight 
 that comes destined for the east over the Erie road passes §03 
 that point, and yet the Lake Shoie road has been able to 
 do its business, would not those facts combined tend to 
 show that that crossing had not paralyzed the Lake Shore 
 road ? 
 
 A. Certainly they have not paralyzed it. 
 
 Q. But you think if the Lackawanna crossing was put 
 in there too the dog would be dead i? 
 
 A. If you put seven more crossings in I think you 
 would produce more paralysis. 
 
202 
 
 B04 Q. Don't yon think it would be total ? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. The Lake Shore would be able to do some 
 business? 
 
 A. There is no doubt of that. 
 
 Q. Is it an extremely difficult thing to re-arrange 
 tracks ? 
 
 A. Well, you can change tracks. 
 
 Q. Yon can ship them ? 
 
 805 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It is a thing within the possibility of engineering 
 skill ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You could do it, couldn't you ? 
 
 A. I think I could. 
 
 Q. With three or two thousand feet of yard room 
 there, independent of tliose tracks, you could do consid- 
 erable bnsinesa, couldn't you ? 
 
 806 A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. You could take a little more land and still do a 
 good deal more ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And ship your tracks around ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that the matter of paralysis would be a thing 
 that could be doctoi'ed ? 
 
 A. If you had the monej'. 
 ^07 Q. In your calculations hei-e have you considered this 
 the main lineof tlie Lackawanna road, or what? 
 
 A. I took it as the road, bringing all of its coal into 
 Buffalo, and its passenger business. 
 
 Q. Where did you get your information about the 
 Lackawanna road? 
 
 A. I got it from Mr. Hawkes. 
 
 Q. The Lake Shore engineer ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; is it correct ? 
 
Latimer x ] 203 
 
 Q. Did he tell you that he had another line around 808 
 to the bridge? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you tliat tlicj' had another line around 
 to the light-house ? 
 
 A. He did not tell inethat they had anotlier line, but 
 they have got something on paper; I don't know if there 
 is a line built; there is a line there. 
 
 Q. He told you they were trying to get a line around 
 there, didn't he? 809 
 
 A. He said they had planned a line there, but this 
 was to be the — 
 
 Q. Did he tell yon that they had commenced work 
 on it? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. All your figurations here have been on the basis 
 
 of what Mr. Hawkes told you ? 
 
 A. Is it true ? 
 
 810 
 Q. That is not the question ? 
 
 A. Well, I took it for granted — 
 
 Q. All your calculations have been on the basis of 
 what Mr. Hawkes told you ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and with the understanding that a dou- 
 ble track was planned across there. 
 
 Q. How much coal business do you estimate the 
 Lackawanna road are going to do ? 
 
 A. I suppose it would be very considerable; their ^^^ 
 docks were pointed out to me. 
 
 Q. How much tonnage do you figure ? 
 
 A. 1 only know that noroad is going to build a dou- 
 ble track without having a very large business. 
 
 Q. You figure for a very large business ? 
 
 A. Wouldn't you? 
 
 Q. 1 don't know whether I would or not. I am not 
 an expert? 
 
 A. I don't know whether I am an expert or not. If 
 
204 
 
 812 a road is going to build a single track, I think they 
 would proceed more cautiously. If they build a double 
 track, they mean a large business. 
 
 Q. You do nut figure for any particular tonnage or 
 particular passenger business? 
 
 A. I suppose, as a matter of course, they are going 
 to have a large business ? 
 
 Q. Do you mean to testify tliat your calculation is 
 accurate, or made upon sound promises as a mathema- 
 
 813 tician? 
 
 A. As far as the cost of that crossini!; is concerned, 
 I believe it is entirely sound. 
 
 Q. I suppose au altei-ation in that route of two hun- 
 dred feet would be of great advantage to the Lake Shore 
 road, assuming that both crossings were to be grade- 
 crossings, wouldn't it? Suppose you move two hun- 
 dred feet towards the bridge, it would be very much to 
 the benefit of everybody concerned, and the public, 
 '^^''^ wouldn't it, to liave it moved two hundred feet, even if 
 we had a grade-crossing two hundred feet away? 
 
 A. I suppose that would help a little. 
 
 Q. How much would that take away from the $28,- 
 000.00 a year ? 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Ten thousand ? 
 
 A. Oh, no ; I guess not. 
 
 815 Re-direct examination, by Mr. Greene : 
 
 Q. The numerous grade crossings you have men- 
 tioned as upon your road were constructed a good many 
 years ago \ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. There are some that have been con- 
 structed lately. 
 
 Q. Many of them are cross-roads that do compara- 
 tively a small business? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Latitner.J 2,05 
 
 Q. What you have stated here as to the serious ob- §16 
 jectioiis of grade crossings is based partly upon your ex- 
 perience upon this road, and the numerous grade cross- 
 ings with which you are familiar? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The traffic that passes over your road is what, as 
 compared with the traffic over the Lake Shore, as stated 
 here, and as taken by you in your estimate ? 
 
 A. It is not more tJian one-half, perhaps two-thirds. 
 
 Q. Yon stated to the counsel that this bridge would ^^'''^ 
 be a good indication of the locality to the engineer, and ' 
 that sort of thing, in foggj' weather? Is there not 
 a serious objection, and a difficulty arising from the fail- 
 ure to observe or to be able to observe signals ? 
 
 A. Very great, sir. 
 
 Q. Not only upon the trains but by the men in 
 charge at the crossing, in their observation of approach- 
 ing trains, or cars that maj' be moved for switching or 
 other purposes? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there are difficulties and dangers regard- 
 ing that?' 
 
 Q. Taking a freight train forty cars long, coming at 
 the rate of twenty-five miles an hour, we will say, down 
 grade, the grade is twenty to twenty-five feet to the 
 mile, and a freight train of forty cars, vrithin what dis- 
 tance can it stop ? 
 
 A. It can stop in about twelve hundred feet. „. „ 
 
 Q. On that grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think they could, by a very strong 
 movement. 
 
 Q. What sort? 
 
 A. I don't know that we could stop. It would be a 
 difficult thing to stop. 
 
 Q. With the ordinary brakes ? 
 
 A. They would have to be on the watch, every one, 
 and they would have to reverse. Ordinarily I don't 
 
206 
 
 8>M) know tliat they conld stop at tliat. It is twelve hundred 
 feet from tlie bridge to the crossing. 
 
 Q. Taking your foggy days and dull days, and your 
 freight trains coming as thoy travel on that road? 
 
 A. It would be touch and go from the time you 
 struck the bridge until you struck the crossing ; it 
 could be done. 
 
 Q. Every man would have to be at his post ? 
 
 A 
 8^1 Q 
 
 A 
 
 Q 
 A. 
 
 Q 
 
 832 
 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 And go right to work at his brakes ? 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 And then it would be a close thing? 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Among the numerous grade-crossings that you 
 speak of upon your road, is there any one as compli- 
 cated, or that presents such serious objections and diffi- 
 culties as this proposed grade crossing ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or anything approximating it ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Re-cross examination, by Mr. Locke .• 
 
 Q. Do you know what the maximum speed of freight 
 trains is on the Lake Sliore road ? 
 
 A. No, I don't ; ours is twenty-five miles an hour. 
 
 Q. Now, if it is so difficult to stop going down that 
 grade, is not the removal of the proposed crossinn-, as 
 far north as possible, desirable — as far from the bridge 
 AS possible, desirable ; the nearer you brought the cross- 
 ing to the bridge the more dangerous it would be in re- 
 gard to stopping ? 
 
 A. In regard to a question ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Had you figured that before? 
 
 A. No, I had not. 
 
 Q. Supposing that trains have come up a pretty 
 severe grade to get upon the bridge, and part are on the 
 
Latimer xj 207 
 
 bridge, and part are over the hill on the other side of S"2 1 
 the bridge, is it less difficult to stop the train? 
 A. Yes, it is less difficult. 
 
 Q. It is less difficult to stop if the ends of the train 
 are on diflFerent sides of the summit ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is the Atlantic road extending its road to Chicago' 
 
 A. Not the Atlantic road, but there is another road 
 called the Chicago and Atlantic going to be built. 
 
 Q. Is that in the interest of the Atlantic and Great 8-5 
 Western road ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it not a road intended to be consolidated with 
 yours ? 
 
 A. Not that we know of. 
 
 Q. Is it not built by the" parties in interest who con- 
 trol your road? 
 
 A. No, sir. g^^^ 
 
 Q. Is not Mr.Devereaux an officer of the new road? 
 
 A. No, sir ; he has something to do with it. 
 
 Q. Has it not been advertised as an extension of 
 your road to Chicago ? 
 
 A. It has; but I presume it i^ not accurate. 
 
 Q. Have you not heard such rumors ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have seen it in the papers. 
 
 Q. Have you had anything to do with the road ? 
 
 A. No, sir. g27 
 
 Q. Have you ever been over it? 
 
 A. I have had something to do with it in this respect, 
 that I was asked the question whether the estimate was a 
 
 fair one. 
 
 Q. You were consulted on that question ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen the maps or plans ? 
 
 A. I merely had it traced on the proffie ; I am not 
 
20g 
 
 82h in a position to know if it was in that position which 
 you are trying to ^tt at, and it is not I think. 
 
 Q. Do yon know whether it crosses any important 
 lines of road ? 
 
 A. It does. 
 
 Q. Has it any over-head crossings ? 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Don't you know that every one of them are grade- 
 crossings ? 
 829 A. No, I didn't. 
 
 By Com. Clark: Q. Do you know the point at which 
 the altered route crosses the Lake Shore as proposed 
 by the petitioners ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; 1 have stood on the point. 
 
 Q. Will you state what, if any, objections which 
 you have stated here, to the grade-crossing at the point 
 chosen by the Lackawanna, would not apply to the point 
 of the altered route at grade? 
 
 A. Just let me look at the switches at that point. 
 The difficulty of switching, coming out and getting in be- 
 tween, and having the two to contend with, would make 
 it about the same thing, 1 should think ; they would have 
 the two to contend with, and many times could not 
 get out. 
 
 Q. Supposing this should be adopted instead of tlie 
 other, would the same objections apply ? 
 
 A. Pretty much the same ; yes, sir ; it could not be 
 quite so serious. 
 
 By Mr. Greene : Q. The same objections would ap- 
 ply in a slightly modified degree? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there are seven crossings right there. 
 
 By Mr. Greene (presenting Exhibit " 4 ") : Q. Will 
 you look at the proposed lines of the Lackawanna road, 
 the main lines, line " B " and line " A" ; can you ob- 
 serve that there is any object in, or necessity for both of, 
 those lines "A" and " B " ? 
 
Hilton.] 209 
 
 A. I cannot ; I am at a loss to know why two lines 832 
 should be there. 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. Did yon ever look at it before 
 this minute ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I saw it, and asked what was the cause 
 of it ; I said " What in the world is that for ? " 
 
 Charles Hilton, sworn on behalf of the petititoners 
 and examined by Mr. Greene, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Where do you reside ? ^^^ 
 
 A. In Albany. 
 
 Q. What is your profession ? 
 
 A. Civil engineer. 
 
 Q. For how many years have you been ? 
 
 A. About thirty. 
 
 Q. Upon what work have you been engaged, and 
 what part of it ? 
 
 A. The beginning of my business was in an engineer's „ . 
 otSce in Lowell, Mass. ; then for two or three years I 
 was upon a railroad in New Hampshire, and in charge 
 of ten or twelve miles of construction ; in 1852 I came 
 to this State and was a resident engineer upon what is 
 called the Attica & Allegany Railroad, a road which is 
 not finished; the company failed; in the fall of 1853 I 
 went upon the New York Central Railroad ; I was in the 
 service of that company until about 1867. 
 
 Q. From 1853 ? 835 
 
 A. From 1853 ; in 1869 I was appointed chief engi- 
 neer of the Hudson River Bridge Company at Albany ; 
 superintended the construction of that. 
 
 Q. And built it ? 
 
 A. And built it; after that I was engineer of the 
 Leighton Bridge and Iron Works at Rochester ; I was 
 also engineer of the Erie Canal ; in 1874 I went to New 
 York in charge of what was called the 60th street im- 
 provement terminal facihties of the New York Central 
 
210 
 
 836 and Hudson River Railroad Company, in New York ; 
 bnilt some docks and piers, and an elevator, and some 
 other buildings ; I then returned to Albany and organ- 
 ized a bridge company, of which I am vice-president and 
 engineer at the present time. 
 
 Q. Have you had a considerable practical knowledge 
 and experience in reference to the crossings of railroads 
 at grade, and have you considered the disadvantages 
 resulting from such crossings ? 
 
 837 A. I have, necessarily, in the course of my profes- 
 sional business. 
 
 Q. Will you state to the commissioners the principal 
 objections that occur to you to grade-crossings in general ? 
 
 A. The first great objection is the danger of collision ; 
 because they involve not only damage to property, but 
 danger to human life ; this danger may of course be 
 reduced to a minimum by extraordinary care in watching 
 the crossings, and proper signals ; but accidents do occur 
 at crossings ; tiiere will alwa3'8 be danger of accidents 
 from collisions. 
 
 Q. And tliat danger would increase in proportion to 
 to the traffic over the road at the points of intersection ? 
 
 A. In proportion to the frequency of the crossings. 
 
 Q. What other objection ? 
 
 A. The second principal objection is the necessary 
 breaking of the track bj' making openings in the rails ; 
 the result of which is injury to the track and to the roll- 
 ing stock very materially. 
 
 Q. The breaking of the track, you say ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; 1 mean the breaking of the continuity 
 by the crossing frogs. 
 
 Q. What efi'ect does that have, this breaking up by 
 means of these heavy crossing plates ; what effect does it 
 have upon the rolling stock ? 
 
 A. Well, breaks and inequalities of that kind consti- 
 tate the principal destructive element in the road-bed, 
 
Hilton.] 211 
 
 upon the rolling stock ; if the track was perfectly smooth 840 
 the rolling stock, wheels and axles, would last an indefi- 
 nite length of time; it is the blows that they receive 
 from bad crossings and bad rails, and shocks they receive 
 in crossing over these crossing plates, that cause the 
 breaks of wheels and axles in time. 
 
 Q. Every time a car-wheel passes over a crossing 
 plate, it being so much heavier and more solid than the 
 tracks adjoining, it receives a blow, does it not? 
 
 A. Not so much that as the openings in the rails ; the 841 
 wheel drops into it every time it crosses over and strikes 
 the next rail with a blow. 
 
 Q. And this crossing-plate being so heavy and se- 
 curely placed, is more solid, and the wheel receives a 
 more severe blow than would be received simply from 
 an eqnal separation of the rails at another point? 
 
 A. Well, I don't consider that that would be so seri- 
 ous ; it depends, in a measure, upon the manner in which 
 
 84:2 
 
 the track is kept up on either side of the track ; if it is 
 kept up properly and no opening, I do not consider that 
 the heaviness of the plate would be any serious injury at 
 all. 
 
 Q. But there being this opening upon this solid plato, 
 there is, necessarily, a severe concussion or blow every 
 time the wheel passes over it ? 
 
 A. It is the opening in tlie track. 
 
 Q. And that produces what effect, or may produce ^^^ 
 what effect upon the wheels and axles? 
 
 A. It produces a shock or a blow, as I mentioned ; 
 as the wheel passes over the end of one rail it drops — in 
 proportion, of course, to the width of the opening — and 
 strikes the end of the next rail ; it does not go smoothly 
 but it drops. 
 
 Q. Is that liable to produce a breakage of the wheel 
 or axle ? 
 
212 
 
 844 A. That tends, of course, to produce a breakage of 
 the wheels and axles both. 
 
 Q. And may produce such an injury as to result iu 
 an accident at a point more or less remote from the 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. Oh, yes ; it is the many repetitions of these 
 blows that result in the breaking of the wheels and 
 axles. 
 
 Q. In reference to the eftect upon the car generally, 
 
 845 from the shock or jar, has that an injurious effect? 
 
 A. Not so much upon the car body as upon the roll- 
 ing gear ; it is principally upon the axles and wheels. 
 
 Q. How as to the wearing out of the crossing-plates, 
 and the expense of replacing them ? 
 
 A. The annual expense is great in proportion, of 
 course, to the frequency with which they are used ; also 
 the speed with which the cars go over them ; it is found 
 very difhcult to get crossing-plates that will last as long 
 as rails on either side ; they wear out very fast. 
 
 Q. Relatively about how long ? 
 
 A. I am unable to say how long ; tjiere are so many 
 kinds of crossing-plates ; some last longer than others, 
 and it depends a great deal upon the care which is be- 
 stowed upon them. 
 
 Q. What other objections do you think of? 
 
 A. Those are the principal objections. 
 
 Q. You have given us the danger and the injury to 
 rolling-stock ; now, in reference to through lines, where 
 there is considerable traffic, what would you say as to 
 there being a serious objection on account of stoppage 
 ot trains and delay resulting from the crossing? 
 
 A. Where the running of trains is interfered with, 
 and they have to be brought to a stop, of course the 
 question of delay is important. 
 
 Q. Have you been over the premises in question here 
 
Hilton.] 213 
 
 where the Lackawanna proposes to cross the Erie and 818 
 Lake Sliore tracks? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And made an examination of the premises wlien ? 
 
 A. Yesterday morning. 
 
 Q. Plave you also examined the maps and profiles ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to the feasibility and practi- 
 cability of an over-head crossing by the Lackawanna at 
 the line which is proposed by the petitioners here, the 849 
 altered line ? 
 
 A. It is of course entirely practicable. 
 
 Q. The witness : With your honor's permission, I 
 would like to make an addition to my answer as to what 
 the objections to crossings are, and one which I have 
 omitted to mention, which sometimes may be a very 
 grave one ; that is, the amount of interference with the 
 business of the roads crossed ; that depends very much 
 upon the location of the crossing, whether it is near a ^^^ 
 station or remote from it, where the crossing of trains are 
 infrequent. 
 
 Q. Now, sir, what do you say as to the eifect, what 
 necessary effect upon the business of the Lake Shore and 
 the Erie Railroads at the proposed point of crossing, and 
 in that vicinity, would be produced by a crossing at 
 grade, as proposed by them, assuming that there are 
 268,707 eastward bound cars over the Lake Shore road, 
 269,515 westward-bound, making a grand total of 
 538,222 cars ; and assuming tiiat the yard of the Lake 
 Shore is as shown upon the map marked " Exhibit No. 
 3," and extending northerly therefrom, and the transfer- 
 house, and tracks and switches located substantially as 
 shown on " Exhibit No. 3 ; " and the number of cars 
 transferred from the Lake Sliore to the Erie, and the 
 Erie to the Lake Shore during that time amounted to 
 73,186, of which about eleven thousand were sent to the 
 
214 
 
 852 transfer-honse for transfer of freight, and the switching 
 from tlie yard of the Lake Shore was done over or near 
 the proposed point of crossing, and assuming a double 
 crossing to be laid at the crossing of tlie Lackawanna, 
 and assuming that the two tracks of the Lake Shore are 
 its main line, over which the freight and passenger traffic 
 all passes, and that tlie outgoing passenger trains cross 
 over from the right-hand to the left-hand track at the 
 point as shown upon " Exhibit No. 3," assuming that 
 
 853 in addition to this freight business that I have mentioned, 
 there are thirteen passenger trains, and from fifty-seven 
 to sixty-two trains, including freight, passing this point, 
 assuming that to be the traffic of last year ? 
 
 A. Well, the interference, the necessary delays 
 caused by crossing these two roads, particularly the Lake 
 Shore at this point, would be ver}' grave with reference 
 to the regular trains themselves alone ; it would perhaps 
 be quite as serious as interfering with the business that 
 
 ^^^ is transacted between the Erie and the Lake Shore with 
 the necessary switching, because this crossing is within 
 the switching distance, and all the switching and ex- 
 change of trains and cars between the two roads must be 
 over these crossings, more or less of them ; all cars run 
 from the Erie track and transferred to the Lake Shore, 
 or from the Lake Shore to the Erie, must pass over this 
 crossing at least three times ; this crossing of the Lack- 
 awanna road is a crossing, as I understand, of their main 
 
 855 . . . . 
 
 line running into the city of Buffalo, over which their 
 
 freight and passenger trains are all run ; the passenger 
 trains must, and generally are accorded the right of way, 
 particularly over all switching business, and the switch- 
 ing must be suspended for some time before and after the 
 schedule time of the crossing of passenger trains; that 
 would very materially limit the capacity of this arrange- 
 ment between the two roads to transact their transfer 
 business; it is, in my opinion, a more objectionable 
 
Hilton.] 215 
 
 crossing than that of the Erie and Lake Shore, for the 856 
 reason that a great deal of the crossing of those two roads 
 results from interchange of business, so they will of 
 course take care that no other trains upon those roads 
 will interfere with the transfer business ; but these trains 
 being entirely independent, having no business connec- 
 tion with either the Erie or Lake Shore, must be kept 
 out of the way of, and will not be run to accommodate 
 any transfer or switching business ; it would, in my 
 opinion, very seriously cripple the ability of these two 857 
 companies, to carrying on their business of transferring 
 freight. 
 
 Q. And how with reference to the making up and 
 dispatching of the freight trains, assuming that the 
 switching was done in the locality as shown as to delays 
 and detentions necessarily involved by reason of that, 
 whether that would be serious? 
 
 A. Well, that would be serious, but is an objection 
 common to all crossings ; this is particularly objectionable ^ 
 here on account of the interference with the making up 
 of trains. 
 
 Q. That is what I had reference to, the making up 
 of outgoing trains and distributing of cars from incom- 
 ing trains? 
 
 A. Of course, so far as that is concerned, there would 
 be the same objection in regard to that. As to the trans- 
 fer business between the two, so far as the switching from 
 this yard is concerned, that has to be done over this 
 crossing; the effects upon that would be quite as import- 
 ant, quite as serious. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't the proposed crossing, while the Lack- 
 awanna road had the target or right of way, necessarily 
 suspend the business between the Lake Shore and the 
 transfer-house, and the Lake Shore and the main tracks 
 of the Erie, as well upon the easterly as the westerly 
 side? 
 
216 
 
 860 A. Yes, sir; I think it would. 
 
 Q. Whereas the crossing now of the Erie and the 
 Lake Shore only interrupts the business upon the main 
 lines, does it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is all. Of course, when the train 
 crosses one of these tracks it crosses all of them. 
 
 Q. Now, while the Lackawanna road had the target 
 and the right of way, would it not necessarily at that 
 time suspend all crossing upon the main lines, and all 
 
 861 the tracks of both the Lake Shore and the Erie during 
 that time, tlie ci-ossing of the two being so close together 
 and so near the crossing of those two roads ? 
 
 A. It would interfere with the use of all tracks upon 
 which moving trains would have to pass this crossing. 
 
 Q. In other words, it would not be possible or prac- 
 ticable for the Erie to be using those tracks crossing the 
 main line of the Lake Shore at the same time that the 
 Lackawanna was using this crossing, by reason of their 
 ^"'^ being so close together here, would it ? 
 
 A. Oh, certainly not; there couldn't any of these 
 tracks be in use, either the Erie or Lake Shore, whenever 
 the Lackawanna had the right over the crossing. 
 
 Q. So that the Lackawanna Road would suspend the 
 operation on the Erie as well as the Lake Shore, and 
 the Erie and the Lackawanna could not be at the same 
 time operating its crossing? 
 
 A. The Erie could not any more than the Lake Shore 
 could ; there could neither of them. 
 
 By Commissioner McAlpine: Q. In fact it would 
 suspend the traffic over all the crossings shown there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By counsel, resuming: Q. There is not the-length of 
 a train between the crossing of the Erie and Lake Shore 
 and the proposed crossing by the Lackawanna on either 
 road, or between the Lake Shore and the Erie, is there ? 
 
 A. No, sir, not a train length. 
 
Hilton.J 217 
 
 Q. The three main tracks would form a triangle and 86-i 
 along the line of the Erie would be what ? 
 
 A. One hundred and fifty feet. 
 
 Q. Along the line of the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Two hundred. 
 
 Q. Across along the Lackawanna ? 
 
 A. About 150 ; from outside to outside of all the 
 tracks of the Lake Shore is only about 300 feet ; the 
 train, if it'should stop on this crossing, would cover all the 
 tracks. 865 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. You mean a train on the Lacka- 
 wanna road ? 
 
 A. I mean a train on the Lackawanna road ; yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. By counsel resuming : Q. About what speed 
 would freight trains in good practice in railroading make 
 these passages at that point ? 
 
 A. Well, they should not go over those crossings at a 
 greater speed than five or six miles an hour. ^^*^ 
 
 By Com. McAlpiue : Q. That would be about five 
 hundred feet a minute ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; about five hundred at six miles an hour, 
 a little over at six miles an hour and a little less at five 
 miles an hour. 
 
 By counsel, resuming: Q. What do you say, taking 
 all these facts that have been referred to into considera- 
 tion, as to the effect of such Ja crossing jjaralyzing and 
 rendering it very difiicult if not impossible to transact 
 the business of the lines at that point? 
 
 A. With the amount of business that is done I am 
 not pre])ared to say that they might not be able to do it, 
 but it would be at great additional expense if it could be 
 done at all. 
 
 Q. It would be very difficult to do it at all ? 
 
 A. It would be very difficult to do it at all. 
 
 Q. With the present business ? 
 
218 
 
 868 A. Yes, sir; it would depend of course upon the fre- 
 quency of the trains upon the Lackawanna road, but as- 
 suming that their business would be equal to that of the 
 Erie, running an. equal number of trains, it would be very 
 difficult for the Lake Shore and Erie to transact their 
 business with the crossing at tliat place. 
 
 Q. And with double track, and with snch business as 
 would be necessarily anticipated from the construction 
 of a double track there, would you not say that it would 
 
 869 be substantially impracticable to properly transact busi- 
 ness at that point, with a grade crossing, and the large 
 business that has been referred to here as the business of 
 last year ? 
 
 A. Well, I am hardly prepared with statistics to say 
 that it could not be done ; I don't know whether it takes 
 all the time that they have to do the business now, how 
 much spare time they have, of course it takes a certain 
 time to handle a given number of cars, move them from 
 °'" one track to another, a certain distance. 
 
 Q. Taking into consideration the fact, that there is 
 now a crossing there by the Erie, and that the Lacka- 
 wanna crossing must be used not at the same time that 
 the Erie crossing is, but at additional, or other times, 
 what would you say then, and assuming that the Erie 
 crossing is now in use from a half to three quarters of the 
 time, and that the Lackawanna must be time additional 
 to that, as you have stated, necessarily, what would you 
 tlien say as to the probability of the Lake Shore beino- 
 able to transact its business, the large amount of business 
 then? 
 
 A. I suppose that in saying that the Erie crossing is 
 used three-fourths of the time, you mean to include all 
 the switcliing business ? 
 
 Q. Yes? 
 
 A. There would be nothing of the kind with the 
 Lackawanna; now, if you can, state liow much of the 
 
Hilton .J 219 
 
 time is occupied by the regular trains, then a comparison 873 
 can be instituted, because the Lackawanna road would 
 probably occupy the crossing quite as much of the time 
 as the Erie, as it will not only block one road but both, 
 it doubles the interference and the delay, because both 
 roads must be stopped. 
 
 Q. And how would be the detentions and delays at 
 this point in the passage of trains and the making up of 
 outgoing trains, affect other trains upon the line of the 
 Lake Shore road ? 873 
 
 A. Well, it must be taken into account of course ; you 
 have to give allowance for trains passing this point, and 
 that must be taken into consideration in making up time 
 arranging the running of the trains all over the road. 
 
 Q. Result in the holding back of trains at other 
 points ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it lengthens the time that the trains must 
 take in passing over the road. 
 
 Q. Not only the trains here, but at various points on 
 the road? 
 
 A. I used the term the whole length of the road be- 
 cause it affects the length of the time required to pass a 
 train over the road, if there is an obstruction at any 
 point. 
 
 Q. It affects it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, of course less and less as you get away 
 from this point ; it must affect it, either increasing the g^g 
 time at other points, or otherwise affect it more or loss. 
 
 Q. By Com. McAlpine : But at such a distance as 
 they could reasonably make up for this delay, at some 
 distance, twenty miles or fifty miles beyond that point 
 on the road, it would have no effect if they made up the 
 loss of time? 
 
 A. Oh, yes, it could be coTicentrated in a few miles if 
 they have spare time, so that they could make up the 
 time lost there ; assuming that the speed of trains was 
 
220 
 
 876 propei-ly equalized all over the road, and they had to run 
 it in a shorter time by reason of an obstruction near one 
 end, they would probably split it up all over the road, 
 instead of concentrating it within fifteen or twenty 
 miles. 
 
 Q. Then would arrange the schedule of running 
 time with reference to such delays as they found by ex- 
 perience did occur at this place, or at any other, that is 
 your idea, is it ? 
 
 877 A. Yes, sir, that is my idea. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming : Now at the place at the 
 crossing on the line of the proposed alteration, which is 
 this dotted line, would it present less difiiculties or mod- 
 ify to some considerable extent the difficulties of a cross- 
 ing at the point proposed by the Lackawanna road, as- 
 suming both crossings to be at grade ? 
 
 A. It would not improve it much, because it would 
 not give a train length beyond any of the switches, a 
 °'° train could not be drawn out of the switches without still 
 going over this crossing. 
 
 Q. Assuming that it was an over-head crossing, what 
 do you say as to its advantages ; as an engineer, now, 
 what would you say as to the proper and best method 
 for constructing a crossing there, all things considered, 
 to lay it at grade upon the proposed lino, or an over- 
 head crossing upon the proposed altered line ? 
 
 A. Oh, an over-head crossing is always preferable. 
 
 Q. In this particular case how is it ? 
 
 A. Well, here it would be especially desirable to 
 these roads whose business would be interfered with. 
 
 Q. Taking the proposed altered place of crossing for 
 an over-head crossing, and what are the advantages of 
 this situation over the situation of the proposed crossin* 
 with an over-head crossing? 
 
 A. Well, I don't know that there would be much 
 choice between the two if the road was carried over. 
 
Hilton.J 221 
 
 Q. Taking the relations of the Erie and Lake Shore 880 
 tracks just at this point, all through, and probable ex- 
 pansions in the business, and then taking the rela- 
 tions at the point where the altered crossing is proposed, 
 and are there any features which would make this a more 
 preferable place for an over-liead crossing, in reference 
 to the tracks and switches? 
 
 A. Well, as an over-head crossing would not inter- 
 fere with any of the tracks in either case, I am unable to 
 see any particular advantage in one over the other, un- 881 
 less it might be in the matter of expense in making the 
 crossing. 
 
 Q. As to the piers being in the way and interfering 
 with the tracks and switches — whether it would not be 
 more desirable to move it further from the point of the 
 distribution of the tracks? 
 
 A. Unless it can be carried over so as not to inter- 
 fere at all, it would bo preferable to carry it over at the 
 proposed altered place. 
 
 Q. Is it not of importance to these roads to keep, 
 just the place of the proposed crossing, all of the terri- 
 tory there as free and clear as possible from piers and 
 everything else, more so than at the place of the pro- 
 posed alteration which is farther away from the converg- 
 ing of the tracks ? 
 
 A. Yes ; the construction of piers on the present line 
 might interfere with the use of the ground by the Erie gg^ 
 and Lake Shore for the purpose of laying side tracks. 
 
 Q. And in reference to that point then, an over-head 
 crossing on the proposed alteration is an advantage ? 
 
 A. In that view. 
 
 By Mr. Greene, resuming : 
 
 Q. Look at Petitioners' Exhibit No. 4, the red line 
 being the proposed line of the Lackawanna road, and 
 the lines " B " and "A," and tell me if you can discover 
 any reason or necessity of the construction of both of 
 
222 
 
 884 those lines "A" and "B," or whether the business of the 
 company in and out of Buffalo might as well be trans- 
 acted npon the one line, as to have the two lines as laid 
 down on that map ? 
 
 A. Well, from the knowledge I have, I cannot see 
 any reason for building the two lines, connecting one 
 line at each end. 
 
 Q. So far as you see or understand, the continuation 
 of the line "A" would be all that would be necessary, 
 
 885 or the line "B; " either would be sufficient? 
 
 A. Well, either there is nothing that appears on 
 the map, or in the location of the premises, as I saw it, 
 to render both necessary ; I think that one would do the 
 business as well as two. 
 
 Q. And the ground passed by the line "A" is the 
 meadow and commons there, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. This Lackawanna line through here is the main 
 
 886 line of the Lackawanna into the city of Buffalo ; these 
 main tracks of the Lake Shore are the main passenger 
 tracks of the Lake Shore Railway between Buffalo and 
 Chicago. Now I will ask you if good engineering re- 
 quires that every device should be avoided that can be 
 avoided in the construction of such lines, which will 
 place the passenger business on those roads in any 
 jeopardy ? 
 
 A. I think it is the duty of companies and engineers 
 to avoid, if possible, that is, within reasonable expense, 
 to avoid grade-crossings in any such case. 
 
 Q. With particular reference to their being passen- 
 ger lines ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is not the reason of that at the point there, the 
 fact that there is nothing betwen the passengers on those 
 roads and constant danger, except the continuance of 
 
Hilton xj 223 
 
 the vigilance of the employees of all those railroads ia 888 
 guarding those crossings? 
 
 A. The avoidance of accidents and collisions depends 
 solely upon the vigilance of the watchman watching the 
 signal. 
 
 Q. This particular point, which is the conjunction 
 
 of tracks used as has been testified to, would be one 
 
 requiring of all the various employees connected with 
 
 these crossings and the guarding of them, continous 
 
 vigilance ? ^^^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir, on the part of the wacthman, the signal 
 
 men and the engineers on the trains, and all parties hav- 
 ing any control over the crossing. 
 
 Q. Now, you said that a condition of things like that 
 should be avoided, if it can, from an engineering point 
 of view, be done by some reasonable device ; is the con- 
 struction of an over-head crossing, say on the line of our 
 proposed alteration, from an engineer's point of view, a 
 very reasonable thing to be done to avoid the dangers of 890 
 that grade-crossing, in reference to the passenger 
 business ? 
 
 A. I think that it should be done ; having examined 
 the plans and 'profiles of this altered line, I think that 
 the expense is not so great, nor do I see that there are 
 other obstacles which should prevent the Lackawanna 
 road from going over. 
 
 Q And would you think that that was a perfectly 
 reasonable suggestion to overcome the danger of that 
 proposed crossing there? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think so. 
 
 Gross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. When did you reach town ? 
 
 A. Yesterday morning at eight o'clock. 
 
 Q. How did you happen to come up ? 
 
 A. I came in response to a telegram. 
 
224 
 
 892 Q. From wliom ? 
 
 A. From Mr. McMillan. 
 
 Q. The attorney? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were not subpceuaed ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you been paid your expenses ? 
 
 A. I paid my own so far. 
 
 Q. How high an over-head crossing is necessary, 
 where one is required at all ? 
 
 A. It should be a clear height of nineteen feet over 
 the track. 
 
 Q. Then if one is proposed of twenty-five feet, would 
 you say that that was six feet in excess of what was 
 necessary ? 
 
 A. Twenty-five feet clear height, I should certainly 
 regard it so. 
 
 Q" How much usually intervenes between sub-grade 
 
 893 
 
 894 
 
 ;!)") 
 
 and clear crossing ? 
 
 Mr. Milburn : I will say on that point that we pro- 
 pose to show before these commissioners that the putting 
 of that crossing at the height that it is was an error, a 
 pure mistake on the part of the engineer, who, hav- 
 ing but a short time to get up all these maps for 
 these crossings, and having to work through pretty much 
 all night on this fine line profile paper, missed one of his 
 counts ; that we have a new profile prepared here, which 
 all the parties here will stipulate may be substituted 
 with reference to that point. We shall also prove the 
 error by our engineer, Mr. Haven, and the circumstances 
 under which it happened; and that we are perfectly 
 willing, as we think there is power with this stipulation, 
 to substitute this profile to cure that difiiculty. 
 
 Commissioner Clark: Does the Lackawanna road 
 consent? 
 
 Mr. Locke : No, sir. 
 
Hilton xj 225 
 
 Mr. Milburn : 1 mean all the petitioners. It is over 896 
 our property, and we consent that the line may be 
 crossed at this lower elevation. I think that an error 
 being shown, that there is power in this proceeding, as 
 there is in every proceeding, to allow of its correction, 
 at any rate we stated that that is what we propose to do, 
 accompanied by our stipulation, and representing our 
 railroads, that we are willing to be bound by the 
 altered profile. We offer to allow the profile to be 
 modified, as shown by this route, for their benefit if they 897 
 desire to do it. The exact legal effect of that may 
 come up afterwards, but in the examinations I am merely 
 indicating what we are willing to do, and propose to do ? 
 
 Mr. Greene : That had better be marked for identifi- 
 cation, and we offer to allow the profile to be modified as 
 shown upon that map. 
 
 Commissioner Clark : Of course the commission 
 would not be prepared now to make any ruling on that 
 one way or the otlier, or the effect of an error, if you ° ° 
 have made one ; but I might suggest that possibly the 
 power may be in the court to have it modified, and not 
 in commission. 
 
 Mr. Milburn : It was one of the features that had 
 impressed me, that during the pendency of this proceed- 
 ing, or at sometime, we might ask either to have this 
 substituted by the court, or to have any decision of the 
 commission in that regard ratified by the court. 
 
 Mr. Locke : The counsel have stated here that the 
 proposed alteration of the route, in the words of the 
 statute, the proposed alteration inclndes both allignment 
 and elevation. If he can stipulate a change in the ele- 
 vation, I do not see why he could not come in here and 
 stipulate a better allignment, and he could stipulate and 
 change it about in such a manner that it would vitiate 
 every service that has been made in these proceedings. 
 
226 
 
 900 Commissioner Clark : The commissioners will not 
 rule upon this at the present time. 
 
 Mr. Locke : I understand then that the counsel here 
 admit that the proposed alteration calls for an over-cross- 
 ing four feet higher than is necessary. 
 
 Mr. Milburn : We will not admit that; we are per- 
 fectly willing to concede here, or to admit there that these 
 gentlemen may build their line on this changed eleva- 
 tion. If pressed to it, we shall certainly adopt the 
 
 901 position, and show that that increase of four feet is no 
 such defect as would deprive us of the change in this 
 case. We should insist upon the change notwithstand- 
 ing the error : but to relieve these gentlemen, if they are 
 in a bona fide way perplexed by this point, we assure 
 them that so far as we are concerned they can biiild their 
 bridge four feet lower than it is designated. We make 
 the offer that this profile be substituted for the other. 
 
 Q. How much clear room would be allowed in the 
 proper construction of an over-crossing there, provided 
 the sub-grade of the crossing road was put twenty-five 
 feet and four inches above the Lake Shore rail ? 
 
 A. What is the sub-grade ? 
 
 Q. Don't you know what sub-grade is ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is the bottom of the ballast. 
 
 Q. How much is that below the rail ? 
 
 A. Some engineers fix it a foot, some eighteen 
 inches ; it is usually eighteen inches below the bottom of 
 the rail. 
 
 Q. Assuming that that is the case here, how much 
 clear room would there be under a crossing where the 
 sub-grade was twenty-five feet and four inches above the 
 Lake Shore rail ? 
 
 A. I don't know that I get your idea now. 
 
 Q. I suppose there are some beams under that, or are 
 there none ? 
 
 A. There is no sub-grade to a bridge ; when you 
 
 903 
 
Hilton x] 227 
 
 speak of a sub-grade to a bridge I don't know what you 904 
 mean. 
 
 Q. Your profile shows this: That the Lackawanna 
 crossing is to be twenty-five feet and four inches above 
 the Lake Shore rail ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, from rail to rail. 
 
 Mr. Greene : No, it is above the tie. 
 
 Q. How much clear room would that give ? 
 
 A. Well, a good floor system would require not less 
 than twenty inches. 905 
 
 Q. A foot and eight inches ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That would leave about twenty-three feet, then ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you say that nineteen feet is high enough ? 
 
 A. Nineteen feet is high enough. 
 
 Q. How long were you out there on that property? 
 
 A. About half an hour. 
 
 Q. Did you make any figures ? "^^" 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you made any figures on this thing ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you made any estimate of the cost of build- 
 ing upon the altered route according to the map and pro- 
 file? 
 
 A. I have made none myself. 
 
 Q. Do you know how far the elevation ia extended 
 
 907 
 to the east and west of the Lake Shore track ? 
 
 A. I can't tell you now ; the only information that I 
 have is from the profile that you have before you. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say at the commencement of 
 your examination, among the objections to a grade cross- 
 ing, that the first and great objection was the danger of 
 collision ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of all the evils connected with a grade crossing, 
 
228 
 
 908 what proportion should you say were covered by that 
 objection? 
 
 A. It is an objection that cannot be measured by 
 money, because it involves the loss of human life. 
 
 Q. Can't you express it in percentage, the danger I 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You couldn't say whether it was fifty, or seventy- 
 five or ninety per cent., as Mr. Chanute says ? 
 
 A. One is the danger involving human Hfe, the other 
 
 909 is the danger in delay, involving dollars and cents. 
 
 Q. You wei-e at some time connected with the New 
 York Central road, you say? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know that they liave a grade crossing 
 where the Philadelphia road comes in contact with them 
 in this city ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; they have one. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know of an accident at that place ? 
 
 910 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know something about the Grand Cen- 
 tral Depot in New York ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does not every train that comes out of that depot 
 cross the tracks upon which every ingoing train reaches 
 the depot? 
 
 A. All except the local train that passes through the 
 
 most easterly track. 
 911 
 
 Q. Barring that one train there is a grade-crossing at 
 
 what street ? 
 
 A. Well, they pass two or three blocks, I think, be- 
 fore they get over all of them. 
 
 Q. Well, it is Fiftieth street, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that there is a grade-crossing over which every 
 train entering the Grand Central Depot has to pass the 
 track of every outgoing train ? 
 
Hilton x] 229 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 912 
 
 Q. How often do trains leave the Grand Central De- 
 pot? 
 
 A. I don't recall, at present ; they are leaving almost 
 continually. 
 
 Q. And coming in almost continually, are they not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There is no one spot in America where so many 
 trains enter and leave witliin a given number of hours 
 as in the Grand Central Depot, is there? 913 
 
 A. I am not prepared to say that. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other spot? 
 
 A. I can't mention one now. 
 
 Q. Now, should you not say that the danger of acci- 
 dents at that grade-crossing there was about as severe as 
 it could be in any given case ? 
 
 A. There is one thing in favor of it, they are all un- 
 der the control of the New York Central and Hudson 
 Eiver Railroad Company. ^^* 
 
 Q. Of one dispatcher? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And those trains there, so far as the crossing is 
 concerned, are under the control of one target man, are 
 they not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that these are as much under the control of 
 one man as at the Grand Central Depot? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The trouble is not with the man that is in con- 
 trol ; it is not the risk that he will make a mistake, but 
 the risk that some train employee will make a mistake 
 and not follow orders ; there is where the risk of acci- 
 dents comes in, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long were you connected with the New 
 York Central road as engineer ? 
 
230 
 
 916 A. I think in all about eighteen years. 
 
 Q. Did you have a collision at any grade-crossing 
 during that time? 
 
 A. I don't recall any. 
 
 Q. You know that every railroad company in the 
 State of New York is bound to report the occasion, 
 cause and particulars of every accident happening on its 
 road, to the State engineer, do you not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 917 Q. Now, I have such a book here ; and what would 
 you say in regard to the danger of a grade crossing, 
 if it appeared that in the year 1878, there never had 
 been one accident at a grade crossing in the State of 
 New York ? 
 
 Mr. Greene: Unless the counsel expects to prove 
 that there never has an accident occurred at grade- 
 crossing, I object to the evidence. 
 
 Q. Can you state one case where an accident has oc- 
 curred at a grade-crossing ? 
 
 A. Oh, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Give me one ? 
 
 A. Some years ago there was a very serious one at 
 Alliance, in Ohio ; that was the Fort Wayne road. 
 
 Q. Crossing what road ? 
 
 A. 1 don't recall what the other road is. 
 
 Q. How long ago was that? 
 gjfj A. Quite a number of years ago. 
 
 Q. How many? 
 
 A. Fifteen or twenty. 
 
 Q. Can you mention any since ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there was one ; a very serious one oc- 
 curred down east, on an eastern railway ; I believe in 
 Maine. 
 
 Q. When was that? 
 
 A. Five or six years ago. 
 
 Q. Can you mention any other? 
 
Hilton xj 231 
 
 A. Those are the two that come to my mind now. 920 
 
 Q. So that, of all the grade-crossings in this country — 
 and I suppose ninety-nine out of every hundred cross- 
 ings in this country are grade-crossings, are they not ? 
 
 A. I don't think it is so large a proportion as that. 
 
 Q. Over four-fifths of them are, are there not ? 
 
 A. Three-quarters ; I should say. 
 
 Q. So that out of all the crossings in this country, 
 of which three-fourths are grade-crossings, you are un- 
 able to recall more than two accidents within the last ^^^1 
 fifteen yeai's? 
 
 A. These two are recalled because they involved so 
 great a loss of life. 
 
 Q. Those two are the only ones that you are able 
 to recall ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, are you familiar with the alignment of the 
 the Lake Shore road? 
 
 A. JNot very. 
 
 Q. You don't know about its grade crossings? 
 
 A. No, sir ; not many of them. 
 
 Q. You know it has a crossing out at the Buffalo 
 Creek road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you go out and see that ? 
 
 A. No, sir; I will state that another instance comes 
 to my mind of an accident at a grade crossing ; two g.^g 
 trains that came into contact at the Hoosac crossing. 
 
 Q. How long ago was that? 
 
 A. That was last year. 
 
 Q. Now, those crossings in front of the New York 
 Central depot, down there, are at an angle, are they not, 
 and a very acute angle ? 
 
 A. By switches ; they run from one track into an- 
 -ther. 
 
232 
 
 924 Q. Is there not more danger in such cases as that, 
 than there would be if a crossing were at right angles ? 
 
 A. Inasmuch as it takes more time to get across. 
 
 Q. The track is so much longer obstructed, I under- 
 stood you to say on your direct examination, that a 
 double track crossing made the matter still worse, so 
 far as danger from accident was concerned, the crossing 
 with a double track ? 
 
 A. I don't recollect of saying so. 
 935 Q. Wouldn't that very much lessen the danger of 
 accident ? 
 
 A. I don't know that it would effect the danger of 
 accident. 
 
 Q. Would it affect the delays any ? 
 
 A. I don't see that it would effect the delay, for just 
 so many trains would have to cross. 
 
 Q. With a double track two could pass at the same 
 time? 
 ' A. Yes, sir ; they might do that ; they might pass 
 simultaneously. 
 
 Q. Now, you spoke about the trouble here in this 
 case, because of the transfers from the Erie to the Lake 
 Shore? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ' 
 
 Q. And in your answers to the qestions you as- 
 sumed that the Lackawanna would not require any con- 
 097 "^"^^'^^ '^^^ ^^^ Lake Shore, and was not to have any, 
 because it had no running arrangement with the Lake 
 Shore, did you not ? 
 
 A. That was my understanding. 
 
 Q. Suppose that the intesests of all parties were 
 here to be consulted, the interests of the Lackawanna 
 as much as the Lake Shore, and they desired to avail 
 themselves of the provisions of the statute which requires 
 the Lake Shore to accept freight from them, upon (■'' 
 same terms that it does from any other company. ^^ ^^ 
 
Hilton xj 233 
 
 not very desirable that they should have a grade-cross- 938 
 ing at that point, or that their track should be down 
 at that point, in order to enable them to make a trans- 
 fer with the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Well, I can't answer that question till I see the 
 plan and. arrangement of tracks. 
 
 Q. Assuming that they do want to avail themselves 
 of the provisions of the statute, and have an arrange- 
 ment with the Lake Shore, is it not quite important 
 that they should not be fifteen or twenty feet up at that 929 
 point ? 
 
 A. If they want to make connection at that point; 
 they cannot make connection except at grade. 
 
 Q. Suppose the Lackawanna should run one train a 
 day over that crossing would it seriously interfere with 
 the business of the Lake Shore Road ? 
 
 A. Well, it would be reduced a minimum. 
 
 Q. Suppose the commissioners who settle the points 
 and manner of crossing give the Lake Shore the right of 
 way over the Lackuwanna and the Erie the riglitof way 
 over the Lackawanna in all case, and compel the 
 Lackawanna to cross when they are not using the road, 
 then what is the extent of the injury involved ? 
 
 A. If the Lake Shore and the Erie in the transaction 
 of their business, have any time to give, and an arrange- 
 ment can be made of that kind, it certainly would not 
 interfere with the transaction of their business. ^^^ 
 
 Q. Doesn't it follow from that that the injury to be 
 sustained by the Lake Shore depends very largely upon 
 the manner in which this crossing is to be used ? 
 
 A. Oh, certainly. 
 
 Q. I suppose if you were a commissioner to settle the 
 points and manner of crossing, that you could make such 
 regulations with reference to the Lackawanna trains as 
 to very much reduce the danger of accidents and very 
 
234 
 
 932 nnich reduce the cost of delays sustained by the Lake 
 Shore Road, could you not? 
 
 A. Well, I have been a commissioner in such case and 
 did not understand that it was in our province to regu- 
 late the operating of the road. 
 
 Q. Hovsf much business did you assume for the pur- 
 poses of your statement here that the Lackawanna was 
 going to do? 
 
 A. Well, I stated upon the assumption that it did a 
 
 933 business equal to the Erie at this point. 
 
 Q. You assumed that arbitrarily ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You assumed that this was the main line of the 
 Lackawanna too, did you not? 
 
 A. The main line into Buff'alo for the city business, 
 simply the city and lake business. 
 
 Q. You assumed everything that they were going to 
 bring hereto go west by water would go by this track? 
 
 A. I assumed that all the business coming to Buffalo 
 to stop or to be transshipped here would come over this 
 line. 
 
 Q. Assuming that it is not proposed to transfer over 
 this line anything to go by water? 
 
 A. Well, the interference would be in proportion to 
 the amount of business done. 
 
 Q. Well, the substance of your whole review of this 
 
 __ matter is that the method in which the crossing is to be 
 
 used, 18 an exceedmgly important element in deciding 
 
 the amount of injury sustained by reason of the crossing? 
 
 A. No doubt of that. 
 
 Q. No ; it is possible to re-arrange tracks, is it not, 
 without a great deal of trouble ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; whether you can arrange them without 
 a groat deal of trouble depends on the situation of the 
 land and the exigencies of the business. 
 
 Q. How much land there is and whether it is avail- 
 
Hilton xj 235 
 
 able for such purposes; whether other tracks of other 93G 
 companies crowd in so that no land can be obtained? 
 
 Mr. Greene : Q. You have proved that by one wit- 
 ness ; we shall not give any evidence on that subject. 
 
 Q. I understood you to testify that practically, so far 
 as a grade-crossing was concerned, there was very little 
 difference between a grade-crossing at the proposed Lack- 
 awanna or at the proposed altered point of crossing? 
 
 A- I do not see the difference. 
 
 Q. And that so far as an over-crossing is concerned 937 
 all tiie benefits would be derived from a crossing at the 
 proposed point of crossing ; that there would be if it was 
 at the proposed altered crossing ? 
 
 A. I said that the only difference consisted in the 
 obstruction of the ground by piers that would be erected. 
 
 Q. That would occur wherever a crossing was put in, 
 would it not ? 
 
 A. In one place it would interfere with more switches. 
 
 938 
 Q. I suppose if you were to cross between here and 
 
 Dunkirk that piers might prevent the construction of 
 
 switches at some future time ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So far as the situation is concerned down there 
 to-day, not knowing what plans these gentlemen may 
 have in the future, there is really no difference between 
 the two places, as to grade-crossings or as to over-cross- 
 ings, which amounts to a practical difference? ^^^ 
 
 A. I see no material difference. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to the desirability, from an 
 engineering standpoint, of having tangents as distin- 
 guished from curves ? 
 
 A. I always prefer tangents to curves. 
 
 Q. What do you think of reversed curves as to their 
 desirability ? 
 
 A. Less desirable than simple curves. 
 
236 • 
 
 940 Q. Now, what do you think of reverse curves on an 
 embankment or trustle ? 
 
 A Well, being on an embankment it does not add to 
 the objections to a reverse curve. 
 
 Q. How is it upon a trestle ? 
 
 A. On a trestle it might add ; it requires a stiflfer 
 trestle. 
 
 Q. It gives a blow to the trestle ; now, if you were 
 going as an engineer in charge to lay out a road leading 
 9il from the Buffalo River, across the Lake Shore road, you 
 would, would you not, try to lay out a tangent line.^ 
 
 A. Try to avoid curves so far as practicable. 
 
 Q. And you would try still more to avoid reverse 
 curves, would you not ? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. You spoke of crossing frogs, and the injury to car 
 wheels, and roiling stock that comes from the crossing 
 frogs, do they produce much more injury than switch 
 
 94:3 • 4. g 
 
 pomts « 
 
 A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. A great deal worse ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is where they cross nearly at right 
 angles as this does. 
 
 Q. Are they worse if they cross at right angles thau 
 if the ci'ossing is at an acute angle? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why so? 
 
 A. Because the long point of one rail will pass the 
 long point of another, and if it is acute enough, it will 
 give a continuous bearing for the wheel. 
 
 Q. So that a track crossing at right angles tends 
 more to break car-wheels ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 943 
 
 Q. I suppose that that tendency is a thin^ that 
 
 b 
 
 can 
 
 be computed in dollars and cents, is it not, to a certain 
 extent ? 
 
Hilton x] 237 
 
 A. Well, I ain not in possession of data to com- 944 
 pute it. 
 
 Q. It is within the points of mathematical science, is 
 it not ? 
 
 A. I think that it would be necessary to make some 
 experiments. 
 
 Q. Did you ever make any experiments about wheels 
 broken at crossing frogs ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see a wheel that was broken at a 945 
 crossing frog ? 
 
 A. I can't say that I have. 
 
 Q. You are speaking then simply from a theoretical 
 standpoint, that any blow upon a wheel tends to break it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they are generally broken by blows ; 
 they must be. 
 
 Q. I suppose car-wheels bi-eak on straight roads — 
 don't they on plain roads ? 
 
 A. I don't know a straight road without crossings and 
 frogs. 
 
 Q. Didn't you ever have car-wheels break in winter 
 and you couldn't tell what the matter was ? 
 
 A. Well, you can't always tell the direct cause if they 
 break in the winter ; I have no doubt from the rigidity 
 of the road-bed, and its being thrown out of line, and 
 bad joints and crossing frogs. 
 
 Q. Every application of a brake tends to wear out a „ ,„ 
 car-wheel, does it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And a steep grade, requiring as it does, the appli- 
 cation of brakes to control the train tends to wear out 
 car- wheels ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That accounts for the great expense of car-wheels 
 on the Boston and Albany, does it not ? liaven't you 
 
238 
 
 948 heard anything about the cost from the wear and tear of 
 car-wheels on tliat road ? 
 
 A. I should think likely it might on that road where 
 they have to slide the wheels on the rails. 
 
 Q. It would follow from that, wouldn't it, that an 
 over-crossing here which would require a grade of sixty- 
 two feet to the mile, would tend to wear out the wheels 
 of the Lackawanna road from the application of the 
 brakes necessary to control the train going down that 
 
 949 grade ? 
 
 A. If it was necessary to hold the train by the brakes 
 going down the grade. 
 
 Q. Do they usually let them kitter as they want to ? 
 
 A. It depends on the length of the grade. 
 
 Q. Take a grade of sixty feet to the mile, for two 
 
 thousand feet, going right down to Louisiana street in the 
 
 city of Buffalo, right into the heart of the city, you 
 
 would have to-hold your train every minute and keep it 
 
 ^^^ under control ? 
 
 A. Keep it under control it would not be necessary 
 to slide the wheels. 
 
 Q. So running a train off from that ti-estle, down a 
 grade sixty feet to the mile, right into the heart of the 
 city of Buffalo, you would have to hold it by brakes, 
 control it by brakes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it would be necessary to apply brakes. 
 
 OKI Q- Which would wear out the car-wheels the most, 
 
 951 ' 
 
 do you think, such an application of the brakes as that, 
 
 or the crossing at a very slow rate of speed of the cross- 
 ing frogs, which wheels would be injured the most; the 
 Lackawanna wheels, provided it was an over-crossing 
 and the brake had to control them going down that steep 
 grade of which I speak, or the Lake Shore wlieels from 
 simply crossing two crossing frogs properly put in, if it 
 was a grade crossing ? 
 
 A. The crossing frogs would be more injurious for 
 
Hilton X] 239 
 
 the reason that I do not think it would be necessary to 9o2 
 slide the wheels. 
 
 Q. If a crossing frog is properly put in, is there much 
 of a blow ? 
 
 A. The blow in the first place, as I said, results from 
 the opening of the rails. 
 
 Q. How wide is that opening ? 
 
 A. From two inches to two and one-half. 
 
 Q. What is the diameter of a car- wheel? 
 
 A. Thirty-eight inches. 953 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that that wheel would drop 
 down into an opening of two inches ? 
 
 A. It would not, the whole wheel would not ; but 
 there is a drop to a certain extent, which creates a blow ; 
 but a thirty-eight inch wheel can't drop into a two- inch 
 aperture. 
 
 Q. How much of a drop is there, how much of a 
 vertical drop ? 
 
 A. It is very small, but it is enough to make a blow. ' 
 
 Q. You can't figure it unless you take the French 
 system to do it, can you, centimetres or millimetres ? 
 
 A. Oh, yes, sir ; you are sensible of it in going over 
 a frog. 
 
 Q. Eeferring to the Grand Central crossings, do you 
 know what the grade is into that depot ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. Is it not a very steep grade ? ^^ . 
 
 A. I don't know anything about what the grade is. 
 
 Q. Take it from 70th street down to a point beyond 
 those crossings, is it not over sixty feet to the mile ? 
 
 A. I should think not, but still I have no information. 
 
 Q. Isn't it sixty feet to the mile ? 
 
 A. I can't say. 
 
 Q. We have a telegram that it is sixty feet to the 
 mile? 
 
 A. It may be. 
 
240 
 
 956 Q. If the grade were sixty feet to the mile, wouldn't 
 that add seriously to the difficulties of a grade-crossing 
 at that point ; wouldn't the presence of a grade at the 
 very point of crossing add seriously to the difficulty of 
 crossing, in not being able to control your trains ? 
 
 A. There is no difficulty in controlling a train going 
 down sixty feet to the mile. 
 
 Q. So that that would not add to the difficulties of 
 the case at all ? 
 
 957 A. If a man did not know the grade was there he 
 might; but if he knows the grade is there he can control 
 the train well enough ; the New York Central has a 
 grade of eighty feet to the mile going out of Albany. 
 
 Re-direct examination, by Mr. Greene : 
 
 Q. Take the injury to the Lackawanna wheels by 
 crossing the seven or ten crossing- plates, as compared 
 with the injury to the wheels by the necessary applica- 
 tion of brakes in going down the grade ho suggested, 
 which would be the greater ? 
 
 A. I think the injury from the crossing-plates would 
 be greater. 
 
 Q. There is no injury to the wheel by application of 
 the brake, unless they are set up so as to stop the revo- 
 lution of the wheel ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 ggg Q- Which is seldom done, and would not be proper 
 on a grade of sixty feet to the mile ? 
 
 A. It is unnecessary to stop the wheels at that grade ; 
 but I may be understood as saying that the wheel would 
 not be worn out by the application of the brakes within 
 the ordinary life of a car-wheel ; it would not break the 
 wheel. 
 
 Q. Or produce anything that would result in an acci- 
 dent as a thump at the crossing-plate would ? 
 
Hilton.] 241 
 
 A. 1 think it is tlie inequalities of the track that 960 
 cause the breaks. 
 
 Q. A reverse curve of only three degrees on level 
 trestle, you would not regard as a very serious thing, 
 would you, where the curve was for a short distance ; a 
 radius of three degrees only, and on a level, would you 
 regard that as a matter of any particular consequence ? 
 
 A. Well, the curve is not a sharp one, of course. 
 
 Q. It would present no very serious objection to an 
 over-head crossing as compared with the objections to a 9^1 
 grade-crossing at that point ? 
 
 A. It would require a little stifter bracing of the 
 trestle work. 
 
 Q. A little additional bracing of the trestle would 
 obviate any difiBculty that might occur from it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any serious objection to it if it is neces- 
 sary to avoid the grade-crossing ; would it be of any 
 considerable consequence as compared with the objection 
 to a grade-crossing at that point ? 
 
 A. I think it is less objectionable than a grade-cross- 
 ing; curves are objectionable, however. 
 
 Q. In your statement as to the diflferences in these, 
 the one proposed by them and the one proposed by us, 
 and the objections pertaining to each, you only take into 
 consideration the actual traffic over the tracks as shown 
 upon the map, do you, and not anything in connection „„„ 
 with adjacent lands owned by the Lake Shore Road ? 
 
 A. I didn't take anything of the kind into account; 
 I didn't know anything about that. 
 
 Q. And the fact that the Lake Shore Company owned 
 this track right adjacent to their tracks bordered in blue 
 on Exhibit " No. 2," the fact that their proposed route 
 cuts that right in two near the center, and that the pro- 
 posed altered route runs outside of it and along that 
 street, might very materially alFect the question as to the 
 
242 
 
 964 desirability of the proposed, altei-ed line over the proposed 
 line, wouldn't it ? 
 
 A. The ownership of that land wonld not, unless it 
 can be shown that you need it for railroad purposes. 
 
 Q. I say it might ? 
 
 A. Well, of course it might. 
 
 Q. Avoiding the occupation of that land owned by 
 the company migh^materially affect the question as to 
 the desirability of the one route over the other, depend- 
 
 965 ing upon the use to which that might be applied ? 
 
 A. Entirely depending upon that. 
 
 Q. And that is something that you did not take into 
 consideration ? 
 
 A. The ownership of the land I did not take into con- 
 sideration at all. 
 
 Q. Of any lands? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Commissioner McAlpine : Is that to be taken into 
 - " consideration in reference to the crossing at grade, or an 
 elevated crossing? 
 
 ]Mr. Greene, resuming : I said the proposed altera- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. jNIight there not be a material difference depend- 
 ing upon the use to which this real estate might be ap- 
 plied, assuming the proposed line by them to be at grade, 
 if it is to be by a trestle ? 
 
 „„^ A. My answer was given in reference to the desira- 
 9G7 . 
 
 bility of the two hues for elevated roads, in both cases to 
 
 be carried over without reference to the ownership of 
 the land ; the only question that arises is as to whether 
 the building of the road on their present line would in- 
 terfere with the use of the land which the Lake Shore 
 owns, for railroad purposes. 
 
 Q. Tour answer was independent of any question of 
 ownership or occupancy of adjacent lands ? 
 
Hilton.] 243^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir, cntirelj without refererKie to the owner- 968 
 ship of lands. 
 
 Q. Have not engineers for several years past become 
 more thoroughly satisfied with the unadvisability of put- 
 ting in these grade crossings, and tending more to favor 
 over-crossings for through lines ? 
 
 A. As far as ray acquaintance goes that is the case. 
 
 Q. And the grade crossings which you speak of, upon 
 the Central road, with which you are familiar, were 
 most, if not all, put in quite a good many years ago ? 969 
 
 A. Most of them. 
 
 Q. And a good many of them at points where the 
 road crossing the Central does but comparatively little 
 business over its road ? 
 
 A. There are but few grade crossings on the New 
 York Central. 
 
 Q. And are there any on it to your knowledge that 
 present any such serious objections or difficulties as this 
 proposed grade crossing here ? ' 
 
 A. No, sir, not in the way of interference with 
 business. 
 
 Q. The counsel has taken us down to the Grand 
 Central depot ; are j'ou familiar with the manner of con- 
 trolling and operating trains as they enter and depart 
 from that depot? 
 
 A. Well, not particularly in detail; I know generally 
 how it is done. 
 
 Q. There is a station some distance from the depot 
 above, is there not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In communication with the one at the depot, and 
 it is by communication between them that the running 
 of trains is controlled ? 
 
 A. I will state, perhaps, for the information of some 
 of the commission — perhaps the engineer is well aware 
 of it— that all that crossing is done by switches ; there 
 
244 
 
 973 are no crossing plates, and that they have a system of 
 electrical signals and lock switches, which render 
 a collision impossible ; a switch cannot be placed wi-ong, 
 and at the same time have the signal wrong ; the signal 
 cannot be changed except when the switches are 
 changed, so that an accident is utterly impossible, unless 
 the engineer entirely ignores the signals ; there can be 
 no mistaking signals ; a switch cannot be placed wrong 
 as regards the signals. 
 
 973 Q. Such an application will be impracticable at this 
 point ? 
 
 A. It could not be done right here ; the crossing 
 there is entirely by switches, and not by crossing-plates 
 as it is here. 
 
 He-CJ'oss examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. There are here no switches to be misplaced at 
 this point? 
 
 974 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. So that that is all elminated from the trouble 
 here ? 
 
 A. It renders a collision impossible there, for the 
 reason that they cannot get on the wrong track. 
 
 Q. They don't want to get on the wrong track, but 
 another train could be coming out and trying to cross at 
 the same time an incoming train was crossing, couldn't 
 it? 
 "^'^ A. They couldn't get out ; they only go by signals, 
 and the signals would never bring two trains together. 
 
 Q. Suppose the signal man should make a mistake? 
 
 A. He can't make a mistake. 
 
 Q. Suppose he forgets to stop a train and hold it 
 there ? 
 
 A. He does all that a signal man can do ; the trains 
 are notified by signals, and he cannot change the signal 
 unless the switch is turned. 
 
Hilton x] 245 
 
 Q. Have you ever been to Elizabeth, N. J. ? 976 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do 3'on remember a grade crossing there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; very well. 
 
 Q. Do you remember that the Jersey Central and the 
 Pennsylvania Eailroad pass there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Any other road? 
 
 A. Those are the only two, I believe. 
 
 Q. Do you know the extent of the traffic on those 9'^''' 
 roads ? 
 
 A. Something of it. 
 
 Q. Do yon know the manner in which the crossing 
 is made at those points ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There are two double track roads, are there not? 
 
 A. I believe they are both of them double track 
 
 roads. 
 
 978 
 Q. And all the through business of both roads, all 
 
 the business of both roads goes over that crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All the coal business of the Jersey Central Road? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. An immense tonnage ; and all the business of the 
 Pennsylvania Railroad between Philadelphia and New 
 York? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. g^g 
 
 Q. Conceding that the alignment of the Lackawanna 
 route as adopted by it as a tangent to the east and to the 
 west of the Lake Shore track, and that the proposed 
 alteration embraces a line with curves, and reversed 
 curves occurring upon comparatively steep grades, would 
 you not say that the Lackawanna route is better than 
 the proposed altered route, in case both are to be of an 
 over-crossing, taking the interests of all the parties to 
 the controversy into consideration ? 
 
246 
 
 980 A. The only party to be affected would be the Lacka- 
 wanna road; they wonld only be affected by the unde- 
 sirability of having a curve ; it wonld make no differ- 
 ence to tlie Erie or Lake Shore so far as this curve is 
 concerned. 
 
 Q. Taking the interest of the Lackawanna and the 
 interest of the Lake Shore together, and is not the 
 Lackawanna route the best route, assuming that they are 
 to be over-crossings ? 
 
 981 A. So far as the Lake Shore and Erie is concerned, 
 the Lake Shore particularly as the owner of this land, 
 and both as desiring to occupy this triangle, it would be 
 better for them that the proposed altered line should be 
 adopted. 
 
 Q. Now, that depends a little upon their right to 
 
 occupy that triangle, doesn't it ? — depends a little upon thg 
 
 use to which this vacant land can be put, does it not ? — 
 
 and their necessity for this land ; it depends upon a great 
 
 '^ many things, doesn't it? 
 
 A. It depends upon their wish to use it for railroad 
 purposes ? 
 
 Q. Suppose they never should want to use it for rail- 
 road purposes— any of this adjacent land — would you not 
 say that the Lackawanna route was the better route for 
 the interests of both parties than the altered route ? 
 A. If they can never use this, or never will use it, it 
 „oo vronld be desirable for the Delaware and Lackawanna; 
 but, as 1 skid before, it would be of no advantage to the 
 Lake Shore or Erie Railroad. You asked me if it was 
 for the interests of all parties. 
 
 Q. From an engineering point of view simply, con- 
 nected with those three roads, would you not consider 
 that the Lackawanna road, having a tangent for such a 
 distance there, some two thousand feet, was preferable to 
 the proposed route, with its curve, if both are to be an 
 over-crossing ? 
 
Hilton.] ,247 
 
 A. That is about the same question as taking into 984 
 consideration all parties. 
 
 Q. I am talking about an engineering point of,yie>v ? 
 
 A. From the point of view of the Lackawanna Rail- 
 road Company, I should say it would be more desirable 
 to have it there. 
 
 lie-direct examination, by Mr. Milburn : 
 
 Q. In regard to this illustration that was put to you 
 by Mr. Locke, and the lines entering the Grand Central 985 
 depot, isn't that a crossing by a crossing frog, and are 
 not the crossings made there entirely by switches ? — 
 when the train has the use of one line, the switch is 
 against any other line ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the signal would be against any other line ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Suppose the Lackawanna gets the target for this 
 crossing, and getting it, has trains enough to keep it ^'^^ 
 occupied for fifteen or twenty minutes, is not that an en- 
 tirely additional cause of delay to anything existing there 
 to-day ? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. So that even if the Erie and Lake Shore had the 
 complete right of way to the use of the crossing, still 
 when the Lackawanna gets the crossing, and is using it, 
 then you have an additional interference and cause of 
 delay to the other two roads ? 
 
 A. The answer I gave to that question was that if the 
 Lake Shore and the Erie had any time to spare in trans- 
 acting their business, and had full control of the right of 
 way, the use of the Lackawanna might not interfere; if 
 they had no time to spare, it would interfere. 
 
 Q. But the business of the Erie and Lake Shore at 
 that point is distributed over the whole of the day ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
248 
 
 988 Q- It is not possible to arrange that during so many 
 hours of the day one company could be working, and 
 during other hours of the day another company could be 
 working ? 
 
 A. My answer was based on the assumption that 
 the Erie and Lake Shore had complete control of the 
 right of way, and the Lackawanna could only use it by 
 their permission and at their convenience. 
 
 Q. And still there would be the delay and incon- 
 
 989 venience that you testified to ? 
 
 A. It would, unless the Lake Shore and Erie had 
 time to give them. 
 
 Q. But, if this to-day is a pretty busy crossing all over 
 the day, the business being distributed over the whole 
 twenty-four hours, why then this crossing of the Lacka- 
 wanna, no matter what the superior rights may be of the 
 Erie and Lake Shore, must be an additional cause of de- 
 lay, to the extent that they have the control of that 
 
 990 crossing? 
 
 A. To look at it from a practical, business point of 
 view, if they have a grade-crossing there, there must be 
 mutual concessions to both sides, and the use of these 
 tracks must be yielded for a sufficient length of time for 
 the Delaware and Lackawanna Railroad to transact their 
 business in crossing at such times as the exigencies of 
 their business might require. That would undoubtedly 
 tend to limit the time in which the Erie and Lake Shore 
 " had to transact their business. It is necessarily so. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. You have given us the rate of 
 speed with which the freight trains would ordinarily 
 pass this point in controversy. Will you please to give us 
 the rate of speed for passenger trains, assuming that each 
 passenger train must stop at the crossing, under good 
 railroad management, as was assumed in the other 
 question ? 
 
 A. They should not pass at much greater speed than 
 
Hilton.] 249 . 
 
 the freight trains, nor would they be likely to if they 993 
 were obliged to stop within a short distance of the cross- 
 ing, they would not get up headway. 
 
 Q. Do you assume also in your answer that the freight 
 trains stop at the crossings ? 
 
 A. Not necessarily ; but they should cross, not at a 
 greater rate of speed than I have mentioned. 
 
 Q. Assuming that they have all to stop ? 
 
 A. Then they would not be likely to pass at a much 
 higher rate of speed anyway, they should not ; and if 993 
 they are obliged to stop there would be very little dan- 
 ger of their crossing at a much higher rate of speed ; 
 they could not get under way. 
 
 Q. You have spoken, in your second objection to 
 crossings, of the injury which the car wheels and the 
 running-gear would receive ; state whether that depends 
 or not upon the rate of speed at wliich the car passes ? 
 
 A. It does. 
 
 Q. And at the rate of speed which you have named 
 here. Are we to understand that your opinion is it 
 would be a matter of serious import the injury which 
 they would receive, the cars and running-gear? 
 
 A. Even at six miles an hour the blow would be 
 much less than fifteen miles an hour, but nevertheless it 
 would be considerable and desirable to be avoided. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. Theefiectof the blow is ap- 
 parently as the weight on the wheel by the square of ^^^ 
 the velocity ? 
 
 A. About that, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In cold weather there is an opening at every rail- 
 joint almost ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There a shrinkage of the rail and a consequent 
 opening ; how much does that amount to ; in other words, 
 in laying your track how much do yon leave for that ex- 
 pansion and contraction ? 
 
250 
 
 906 A. The allowance for laying depends on the 
 temperature. 
 
 Q. If you are laying it at very cold weather, ther- 
 mometer ten degrees below zero, or anything you are a 
 mind to, you have some rules by which yon lay the ends 
 of the rails apart ? 
 
 A. Well, a quarter of an inch is the extreme 
 expansion. 
 
 Q. But rails crawl on the track, and oftentimes a 
 997 quarter of an inch is increased considerably ? 
 
 A. If the fishes are properly punched it is held when 
 it gets to this maximum opening that is allowed ; they 
 are punched so as to allow for just about that movement 
 required by changes in temperature. 
 
 Q. The speed on other parts of the track is thirty 
 to forty miles an hour on the fastest trains ? 
 
 A. The passenger trains, yes, sir, the express trains. 
 
 Q. Then by this law, the weight on the wheel, com- 
 ^^^ paring it in crossing these openings at the crossing of one 
 rail with another, two inches or two and one-half that 
 you speak of, the eifect of the blow is the weight on the 
 wheel by the square of the velocity, and if the velocity is 
 limited in passing the crossing, and trains on other parts 
 of the road wliere an interval of a quarter of an inch oc- 
 curs, run you may say thirty-six miles an hour, it would 
 be as one to six in that case, and the effect is as one to 
 thirty-six ? 
 
 A. You perhaps overlook the fact that the amount of 
 the fall of the wheel is in proportion to the square of 
 the opening, so that that would more than balance. 
 
 Q. The effect then in cold weather, cold enough to 
 make a quarter of an inch opening, the effect of the blow 
 upon crossing such openings is not nearly so much as 
 it is at these crossings ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Could you form an oft-hand opinion relatively of 
 
Hilton. J 251 
 
 how much you find the ends of all rails battered be- 1000 
 cause of that blow ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you find at these openings in the crossings 
 the same battering ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; even a very small opening in the rail. 
 The ordinary joint-opening in cold weather produces a 
 battering of the rail to some extent. 
 
 Q. Could you form an opinion of the relative injuri- 
 ous effects by those two openings, any off-hand opinion ? 1001 
 
 A. It would be better in this consideration to take 
 the average of one-eighth of an inch for the ordinary 
 joint, the extreme opening is only for a short time, of 
 course, that it is a quarter of an inch. 
 
 Q. If you please, yon may answer the question in 
 that way, or just as you desire? 
 
 A. Well, the fall would be not more than one two- 
 hundredths of that of an opening of two indies. 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. Then does it follow that passing ^^^^ 
 over two hundred rails, the aggregate pounding would 
 be as much as it would be at one of these crossing frogs ? 
 
 A. No, sir, because the force of the blow is as the 
 squai'e of the fall. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. I think perhaps a more 
 valuable answer would be from your observations on 
 railroads; how much more are the rails battered, how 
 much quicker are they worn out at these open cuts than 
 they are on the main track ? 
 
 A. The crossing plates, where they are made of the 
 same material, the wear would be ten times as much. 
 
 Q. The crossing plate wears out ten times as fast? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I assume a speed of thirty-six miles an hour on 
 the rail elsewhere, and six miles an hour on this cross- 
 ing, and then the crossing plate will wear out ten times 
 as fast as the rail? 
 
-252 
 
 1004 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. Is there any blow received at 
 passing a common switch ? 
 
 A. Not a well laid, well constructed switch. 
 
 Q. What produces this sensation that we have in 
 riding in a car ? 
 
 A. Well, they are not properly aligned np, that is 
 generally a lateral motion. 
 
 Q. Is not' that the result of a blow ? 
 
 1005 A. Yes, sir, there is a lateral blow, that is also inju- 
 rious. 
 
 Q. That yon find at every switch, do you not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. Do crossings at right angles 
 produce the greatest eifect — injury, and less as the angle 
 is. more acute? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I answered that question to Mr. Locke. 
 
 Q. From your knowledge and experience have you 
 ^^^^ seen tried, gates across the tracks, operated by machinery, 
 connecting those with the two crossing rods, so that one 
 of them must be shut by the opening of the other, some- 
 times called automatic ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I don't know as I have. 
 
 Q. As a provision against the serious accidents to pas- 
 sengers, it has been used on the continent, they have at 
 a distance of half a mile, a bar that is swung across the 
 track that is occupied, or to be occupied, a train cannot 
 pass that bar, at least it gives a signal to the engineer, is 
 it in use in this country ? 
 
 A. I have never seen anything of the kind, I suppose 
 that is a caution to the engineer, not enough to throw 
 the train off, but sufficient to let him know that he is 
 going wrong. 
 
 Q. Yes, they have some such device on the road 
 about Boston, and other places, and New Eno-land for 
 common crossings 1 
 
Hilton.] 253 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I have seen those, they first appeared at 1008 
 the Centennial, I believe. 
 
 Q. I think you said that the necessary headway, 
 clearance between two roads crossing with an over-head 
 crossing, is nineteen feet? 
 
 A. Nineteen feet have been considered, and is now, to 
 be suflficient. 
 
 Q. And you also said that twenty inches were neces- 
 sary in addition to that, in other words, it would make 
 it twenty feet and eight inches between the top of one 1009 
 rail and the top of another ? 
 
 A. Twenty feet and eight inches, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any device which you know that has 
 been used successfully, so that twenty inches is lessened, 
 or can be lessened ? 
 
 A. Well, perhaps not a good stiff floor; 1 have had a 
 floor with not more tlian an inch less than that, and 
 twenty-one or twenty-two inches is better ; but it can be 
 reduced to twenty inches without ditiiculty. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. What is the clearance there at 
 the Lake Shore crossing, the altered crossing by that 
 profile ? 
 
 Eevised profile shown witness. 
 
 A. The clearance is twenty feet and eight inches, I 
 should say twenty feet and nine-tenths. 
 
 Q. That is only allowing twenty inches for the fioor- 
 
 i"g? ^ , ^ 1011 
 
 A. That is only allowing twenty inches for the floor- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. Is it not usual in constructing such work, to give 
 greater depth of flooring than that? 
 
 A. Oh, I should, unless limited. 
 
 Q. What would you say would be reasonable, proper 
 flooring ? 
 
 A. It depends on the length of panel, the style of 
 bridge as built. 
 
254 
 
 3 012 Q. A suitable bridge for a crossing, having a span 
 tliat this necessarily would have ? 
 
 A. Two feet is enough. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. You would prefer to make 
 a deeper floor? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much deeper ; in getting up a plan for this 
 crossing, you would get up one that would keep the 
 grade as low as possible ? 
 1013 A, Yes, sir, you wouldn't want more than two feet 
 depth of floor. 
 
 Q. Then under no circumstance that would be likely 
 to occur at this place. Would you think it necessary 
 to go fi'om the top of the rail of that lower road to the 
 top of the rail of the upper road more than twenty-one 
 feet, four inches ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; aiming to keep the thickness of the floor 
 from the top of the rail to the under side of the bridge, 
 as small as possible, to be without interfering with the 
 efliciency or stiffness of the floor. It could be reduced 
 to twenty inches, but better to have twenty-four. 
 
 Q. If you will notice those two roads that are to be 
 crossed at the same place, the grades are at different 
 elevations ? Both have been used for a good many 
 years, and therefore either one of them may be taken, 
 I suppose, as a suitable elevation, that is, an elevation 
 , „ , . suflicient above the ground and above the water at 
 that place, what is the difi^erence, from that profile, be- 
 tween the two tracks ? 
 
 A. About two feet. 
 
 Q. No, it is more, is it not ? 
 
 A. Two feet and one-tenth. 
 
 Q. The Erie track is two-feet and one-tenth lower 
 than the Lake Shore track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Under the circumstances of this case, in requir- 
 
Hilton.] 255 
 
 ing the Lackawanna road to make an over-head cross- 1016 
 ing, is it reasonable to ask them to go more than to 
 give the clearance which you have given above the Erie 
 track ? 
 
 A. I would not like to advise the making of the 
 clearance less than nineteen feet over the highest track, 
 that is, over the Lake Shore ; that would make it twenty- 
 one feet over the Erie. 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. How high is the top of the stack 
 of the ordinary thirty-ton Locomotive? 1017 
 
 A. I haven't measured them lately ; but I think not 
 over fifteen feet. 
 
 Q. How high is the top of a freight car ? 
 
 A. The ordinary freight car is twelve feet. 
 
 Q. Twelve feet to the bottom of the wheel ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; ti-om the top of the car ; the board. 
 
 Q. The only object of elevating a bridge is to get it 
 high enough so that the brakemen on the cars won't 
 get hurt, is it not? 1018 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; otherwise the height of the smoke-stack 
 would be the limit; some freight cars are made con- 
 siderably higher than others; hay cars are made con- 
 siderably larger. 
 
 Q. They have those hay cars on the Central ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. These same cars that go over the Lake Shore run 
 over the Central ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And all the cars that come over the Lake Shore 
 run under the Erie crossing of the Central ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is proved to be nineteen feet here? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. Would it make any difference 
 at this point that the Lake Shore road is on a down 
 grade, and that there would be improvements, altera- 
 
266 
 
 1020 tions, or leveling np in the future, down grade from the 
 bridge ? 
 
 A. Certainly ; if that can be done the bridge should 
 be raised. 
 
 Q. Taking that grade as it is, would it be good 
 engineering to have more allowance for clearance in 
 such a case, in view of the correction of that grade? 
 
 A. It could hardly require them to provide for all 
 the possible improvements that the Lake Shore or Erie 
 
 1021 may make ; if this is to be done in any reasonable 
 time, it ought to be provided for in the construction 
 of the crossing road. 
 
 Q. If it were contemplated by the Lake Shore to 
 lessen the grade there by levelling up, that would re- 
 quire a larger clearance at this point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Commissioner McAlpine: Q. The tracks of 
 the Lake Shore road and the Erie road must necessarily 
 be at the same level at these several points where they 
 join and cross? 
 
 A. Where they connect; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where they connect and cross ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. One extra foot in the elevation of 
 that road for the distance of a thousand feet would add 
 very largely to the construction of the Lackawanna road, 
 
 1023 ^"^"^"^ ^* "°* ■ 
 
 A. The raising of that road-bed one foot ? 
 
 Q. Yes, the raising of this bridge one foot, and the 
 consequent raising of the road-bed, or increase of grade ? 
 
 A. It would not be a very large percentage across 
 the road ; it would be a foot at that point, and run 
 out to zero at the end; that would increase the grade 
 slightly. 
 
 Q. It would increase the grades? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Hilton.] 257 
 
 Q. If you increase an embankment one foot in height, ^ .„ . 
 do you not have to widen it at the bottom ? 
 
 A. Oh, yes ; it would be like adding a foot to the 
 bottom width, but not to the top width, that is virtully 
 that. 
 
 Q. I suppose an embankment sixteen feet high costs 
 more than one-fifteenth in addition to an embankment 
 fifteen feet high ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it would add a little to the masonry 
 also, nothing to the bridges. 1035 
 
 Q. It would add to the amount of way required? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; about three feet. 
 
 Q. How much right-of-way would be required for an 
 embankment, say twenty feet high; a double track 
 road? 
 
 A. One hundred feet would clear the embankment, 
 
 twenty-five feet road-bed, and slopes one and one-half 
 
 to one. 
 
 Q. Twenty-five feet? 1036 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that sufiicient for two tracks ? 
 
 A. Well, say twenty-six, twenty-six would be suffi- 
 cient. 
 
 Q. How if it is thirty-one feet ? 
 
 A. Well, thirty-one feet on the top would be six feet 
 more ; one hundred and six feet ; whatever you add to 
 the road-bed, just so many feet to the width. 
 
 Q. Thirty-one, I say, instead of twenty-five ? 10^'^ 
 
 A. That would add six feet. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't it add but six feet ? 
 
 A. No, sir; that adds nothing to the slope; the 
 slopes are determined by the height and not by the 
 width of the embankment on the top. 
 
 Q. Suppose you take an embankment thirty-one feet 
 high, and say twenty-six feet on top, how much land 
 would be required ? 
 
258 
 
 1028 A. One hundred aud twenty-one feet at the bottom. 
 By (Commissioner McAlpine : Q. What is the dis- 
 tance from center to center of the double track on the 
 New York Central ? 
 
 A. Twelve feet. 
 
 William H. Couetney, sworn for tlie petitioners, 
 and examined by Mr. McMillan, testified as follows : 
 
 1029 ^' ^h®""® *^^ y°^^ reside ? 
 A. Silver Creek. 
 
 Q. You are one of the roadniasters for the petitioner, 
 the Lake Shore, are you ? 
 
 A. I am. 
 
 Q. Where is your section ? 
 
 A. Between Erie and Buffalo, indudiug East Buffalo. 
 
 Q. And as roadmaster you may state what your 
 duties are, in a few words, generally ? 
 
 1030 A. Sly duties are looking after the tracks and things 
 pertaining thereto. 
 
 Q. Making the necessary changes and superintend- 
 ing those? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know tlie point on the Lake Shore road 
 where the Lackawanna Road proposes to cross the track 
 of the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. I am familiar with the location ; I cannot give 
 
 1031 the exact distance from any one point. 
 
 Q. Well, you know where the stakes are ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I know where the stakes are. 
 
 Q. You know that some changes have been made in 
 the tracks and switches on the Lake Shore road re- 
 cently ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And also some on tlie Erie road at tliis point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I am familiar with the changes. 
 
Conrtney. ] 259 
 
 Q. Were those changes on the Lake Shore road 1032 
 made under your supervision ? 
 
 A. They were. 
 
 Q. From whom did you receive your orders ? 
 
 A. I received the order from the chief eugineer in 
 regard to moving our switches far enough west as we 
 called it — it is not west on your map, as you see by the 
 location, but we were to move our switches out of the 
 way so as to admit of the Erie getting in a second track, 
 crossing across our track ; we were to move them out of 1033 
 the way. 
 
 Q. Mr.' Clark, that you speak of, is the chief engineer 
 of the Lake Shore Eoad ? 
 
 A. He is. 
 
 Q. When did you receive those orders ? 
 
 A. They were verbal orders previous to November 
 12th ; they were last fall ; I could not give you the exact 
 date, it was previous to November 12th. 
 
 Q. Have you some memoranda by wliich you fix the 1034 
 date? 
 
 A. I have. 
 
 Q. What is that ? 
 
 A. 1 have a letter here written to Mr. Collopy under 
 date of November 12tli. 
 
 Q. Who is Mr. Collopy ? 
 
 A. Mr. Collopy, as I understand it, is the roadraaster 
 on the Erie road ; we do business througli him ; I do 
 the track business through him tO a certain extent. 
 
 Q. You worked together at this particular point, 
 didn't you ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, 1 do. 
 
 Mr. McMillan : Q. This is a letter written by Mr. 
 Courtney to Mr. Collopy, the roadmaster on the Erie 
 road, showing the arrangements that had been made, 
 and asking him to do certain things to carry out this 
 arrangement ? 
 
260 
 
 103 G Q- Mr. Courtney, yon may state then what the sub- 
 ject matter of your letter is, and if it was in pursuance 
 of the instructions you received ? 
 
 A. It is dated the 12th of November, 1880 ; the sub- 
 stance of the letter was, I asked him to remove a track 
 that he had between the Diamond and Hart track, as we 
 call them out there ; it is a track used for transferring 
 grain ; it is below there, the Diamond and Hart track, and 
 I asked him to take that track up, to get it out of the 
 
 1037 way so as to admit of our filling the Diamond and Hart 
 track ; could not fill, of course, with a track being low ; 
 between the two it would block them up, and that was in 
 connection with getting ready to extend another low 
 track that they have between their main track and the 
 Hart track ; that is as I understand, or as I am trying to 
 explain ; it was the intention to extend the track they 
 had around to connect up at the west end of the Dia- 
 mond and Hart track, or about the west end, and then it 
 
 1038 -was also the intention at that time that we would move 
 these switches to admit of their crossing our tracks with 
 another crossing, with another track there ; that was my 
 understanding at that time. 
 
 Q. All these changes have been made, have they, in 
 pursuance of the directions and understanding received 
 at that time ? 
 
 A. They have. 
 
 Q. Have you at any time received any instructions 
 
 1039 11 J 
 
 ' from any source to chasge any track or switch in refer- 
 ence to this Lackawanna road ? 
 A. I have not. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. When did you set about making these changes ? 
 
 A. It was previous to November 12th ; I cannot fix 
 the date. 
 
 Q. When did you set about making the changes of 
 the switches? 
 
Taylor.J 261 
 
 A. The switches were changed between Jnne 22d 1040 
 and 29th ; we were four or five daj^s in changing them. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Of this year ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is the two switches, the switches that 
 were in their way. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Locke, resuming : Did you get any in- 
 structions from anybody to make the cliange at this par- 
 ticular time? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It was simply accidental? 1041 
 
 A. Well, sir, it comes under the head of changing 
 our iron rail switches over into steel rail, which we are 
 doing all over the road, and have them most all changed 
 from the iron rail to the steel rail. 
 
 Q. I suppose that you can make a switch at a greater 
 angle than that new switch that you have put in ? 
 
 A. We do not aim to do so. 
 
 Q. You can do it without a great deal of trouble, can 
 you not? 1042 
 
 A. Well, I think we cannot. 
 
 Q. You could not ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When did we commence putting in that other 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. I don't know the exact date ; they graded some 
 there two or three days previous to last Sunday, and the 
 crossing was put in last Sunday, as I understand it ; I 
 was not present. 
 
 Wm. p. Taylor, sworn for the petitioners and ex- 
 amined by Mr. McMillan, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Do you reside in Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And have for how many years ? 
 
 A. Ten years. 
 
262 
 
 1044 Q. You are at the present time the general manager 
 of the Canada Southern Railway, are you not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And for how long a time have you been ? 
 
 A. A little over three years. 
 
 Q. Previous to that time you were division superin- 
 tendent for the Lake Shore Company, were yon not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Having in charge what portion of the road ? 
 
 1045 A. Between Buffalo and Erie. 
 
 Q. How long did you have charge of that division ? 
 
 A. A little over five years. 
 
 Q. During that time you became familiar with the 
 business of the company, and their terminal facilities at 
 Buffalo, did you not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with tlie location at what is 
 known as the transfer-house of the Lake Shore and Erie 
 Company, and of the crossings of the Lake Shore and 
 Erie at that point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have never seen the staked-out route of the 
 proposed line of the Lackawanna, have you ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It is indicated on this map, " Exhibit 3," by the 
 two dark lines indicating a double-track road ; the red 
 lines on this map, and the part shaded red, indicate the 
 tracks and property of the Erie Company, the bine lines 
 and part shaded yellow indicate tlie tracks and property 
 of the Lake Shore Company ; the dotted line at the 
 right of the map indicates the proposed alteration which 
 the Erie and Lake Shore suggest, including an over- 
 head crossing at these points ; this map, it also appears 
 from the proof, indicates the location of the various 
 switches and frogs at the points proposed to be crossed 
 by the Lackawanna Company ; taking all these things 
 
 1046 
 
 1047 
 
Taylor.] 263 
 
 into consideration, and also your experience in running 1048 
 and operating the Lake Shore road, and in running and 
 operating its freight yard, what do you say are the ob- 
 jections to a crossing such as is proposed at this point at 
 grade by the Lackawanna Company ; you may state 
 those generally to the commissioners ? 
 
 A. Well, I do not think it would be a very good 
 crossing for either road ; I think it would be as bad for 
 the Delaware and Lackawanna as for the Lake Shore, 
 for the reason they are switching there all the time, and 1049 
 it would obstruct their trains passing as well as the Lake 
 Shore ; all the switching when I was on the road for the 
 transfer freight to the Erie road was done over this cross- 
 ing — over these tracks. 
 
 Q. Over the point of the proposed intersection and 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I could not say whether their business 
 now is heavier than it was when I was there, but at that 
 time it would be a serious objection. 
 
 Q. What do you say, from your experience in the 
 management of railroads, as to the objections to grade- 
 crossings, stating generally the objections to crossings at 
 ffrade where the main lines are crossed, where the 
 amount of business is being carried on that is done by 
 the Lake Shore road? 
 
 A. Of course the crossings are very objectionable and 
 very expensive ; there is no question about that. The 
 heavier the traffic the more olajection there is to them. 
 
 Q. Are there dangers from collisions ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Serious interference with the general traffic and 
 the handhng of freight ? 
 
 A. Well, an obstruction to general traffic ; I would 
 not say a serious interference. 
 
 Q. Would those objections be obviated entirely by 
 an over-head crossing along the dotted line, as proposed, 
 
 & 
 
264 
 
 1052 having the Lackawanna company pass over the tracks of 
 the Erie and of the Lake Shore ? Dangers from colli- 
 sions and from delays would be obviated, would they 
 not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, certainly. 
 
 Q. You have some knowledge in regard to tho acqui- 
 sition of this property here by the Lake Shore and Erie, 
 have you not, the purposes for which that was acquired by 
 the company? 
 
 1053 A. Well, I could not say ; that property was bought 
 before I was connected with the road. I always sup- 
 posed it was bought for putting additional tracks there 
 whenever thej' were needed. 
 
 Q. And if these tracks were run across there it would 
 not be possible to extend those out a sufficient length to 
 do the switching, not without crossing those tracks? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Qr We have a statement here fi'om the company, 
 ^ showing that the total number of cars passing over that 
 point — that is, in switching back and forth, and being 
 transferred and received from the Erie, and sent west 
 and sent east during the year, amounts to 538,222 cars ; 
 that there is an addition of 73,186 to be made to that in 
 addition to the passenger traffic ? 
 
 A. That includes the through business, everything 
 passing over these points. 
 1055 ^' ^'^^'Ttting passing over these points. Now, what 
 do you say about the delay and interference of having 
 an additional crossing here, there being one here by the 
 Erie— what would you say as to the delay in the hand- 
 ling of that amount of freight, the cars at that point— 
 what would you say about the delay occasioned by 
 making another crossing there at grade ? 
 
 A. That is owing a good deal to how much the Dela- 
 were and Lackawanna road is used. 
 
 Q. Assuming that they are building a double track, 
 
Taylor xj 265 
 
 which is the index to what they propose to do ; that is 1056 
 about the only thing that we can assume, that they have 
 laid out and propose to construct a double track ; if they 
 do that we assume that they will have some business of 
 considerable importance ? 
 
 A. It would necessarily cause a considerable delay, if 
 they do very much business there ? 
 
 Q. What do yoii say about the expense of the crip- 
 pling of cars by reason of crossing all these crossing- 
 plates on all these ten tracks here — is that an item 1057 
 which is taken into consideration very largely in the 
 management of railroads? 
 
 A.. Yes, sir, it is, although I don't think it would be 
 as large there as it would be if it were located out on the 
 main line some ways ; trains in the yard run slower. 
 
 Q. The damage is regulated largely by the speed in 
 going across these places here ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From your experience in the management of rail- ^^^" 
 roads, would you say that such a crossing as that was 
 desirable to be avoided if possible ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 C7'oss examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. There is no trouble in rearranging switches, is 
 there, for tracks, if you have room enough ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I should think not. 
 
 Q. Did you say that you supposed that land was 
 acquired- for the purpose of extending these other 
 tracks up ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; extending the transfer tracks. 
 
 Q. How long have you been running that transfer 
 business with the Erie road ? 
 
 A. It was running all the time I was on the road. 
 
 Q. Were all these tracks there when you were ap- 
 pointed division superintendent ? 
 
266 
 
 1060 A. There were four long tracks there, I think. 
 
 Q. You have fonr there now, have you not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was five years ago ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that that has been sufficient for the last five 
 years, has it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. This land was bought long before you had any- 
 ^^^^ thing to do with the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. I could not say that; before I was superintendent. 
 
 Q. Except as it is used now it has always lain vacant 
 and idle ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have some grade-crossings on your Canada 
 Southern road, have you not? 
 
 A. I am sorry to say I have. 
 
 Q. How many of them? 
 
 A. Well, we have got about ten. 
 
 Q. Do you cross anybody over-head ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who? 
 
 A. The Lake Shore. 
 
 Q. Do you cross the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; going into Toledo. 
 
 Q. Are there any over-crossings of your road of the 
 1063 Canada Southern ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; there is one under-crossing. 
 
 Q. Does that cross any other road at grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I mean where the other roads were constructed 
 first? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, we have several; several crossings. 
 
 Q. How many people were killed at those ten over- 
 crossings by collision of the passenger trains in 1880 ? 
 
 A. None, sir. 
 
Taylor xj 267 
 
 Q. Not any ? . i06i 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have a good many serious accidents at 
 
 those over-head crossings in 1880 ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; we had one — not very serious. 
 
 Q. How serious was it ? 
 
 A. It cost about two thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. Where was that? 
 
 A. Near St. Thomas, in Canada. 
 
 Q. Did you have the right of way, or the other road ? 1065 
 
 A. The other road. 
 
 Q. Then your engine ran into it ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That is the only accident that you had last year ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any the year before that you 
 
 know of? 
 
 A. No, sir ; none. 
 
 Q. The year before that? ^^^^ 
 
 A. None. 
 
 Q. Is that the first one you have had on the road ? 
 
 A. Since I have been there. 
 
 Q. How long have you been there ? 
 
 A. Three years and a little over. 
 
 Q. Were you here on this road when the Buffalo 
 Creek crossing was located ? 
 
 A. I was not superintendent at that time. ^q„„ 
 
 Q. That was before your time ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You ran that road five years with the Bufiiilo 
 Creek crossing at grade, just beyond the Buffalo Eiver? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were there a great many accidents occurring at 
 that point while you were division superintendent? 
 
 A. I don't remember now of any, sir. 
 
,268 
 
 1068 Q. You crossed the Philadelphia and Erie road at 
 Erie ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At grade? 
 
 A. Yea, sir. 
 
 Q. Any accidents at that crossing while you were 
 superintendent at Erie that you now recollect? 
 
 A. I think there was one, but I would not say posi- 
 tively in regard to it. 
 
 1069 Q. It did not make any impression upon you ; it was 
 not a very serious one ? 
 
 A. No, sir; I think we had some freight cars off 
 there at one time. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say that if the Lackawanna 
 should have a grade-crossing at that point, that Lake 
 Shore would still be worth something, probably ? 
 
 A. Undoubtedly. 
 
 1070 lie-direct exatnination, by Mr. McMillan : 
 
 Q. The third rail on the Erie by which through busi- 
 ness could be transferred and sent over the Lake Shore 
 from the Erie, has been laid since you left there, and 
 most of the freight passing over it was transferring cars 
 at that time, wasn't it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Charles Latimee, re-called on behalf of the peti- 
 tioners and examined by Mr. Greene, testified as follows : 
 
 I wish to make a correction in my testimony. I made 
 a mistake in taking 7,666 hours ; it was 2,760 hours. 1 
 handed it to a friend and he went over it, and I thought 
 he was correct, but he did not observe my figures closely 
 enough. It was 2,760 hours, and that made a difference 
 in my estimate, making $20,700 instead of $57,000 on 
 the basis of a time estimate. Now, if I throw off one- 
 half it will be $10,350 instead of $28,500 and something. 
 
Latimer.] 269 
 
 Q. Have you, since you were on the stand yesterday, 1072 
 gone through more carefully than yoa could while being 
 examined, and prepared a statement and calculated in 
 detail the cost and damages to which your attention was 
 called yesterday ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you, now proceed, and give us, in your own 
 way, the basis of that estimate, and the items? 
 
 A. I estimate upon the damage for frogs to wheels 
 at the proposed crossing, $5,760, upon the business that 
 will go over there according to the evidence. 
 
 Q. Per year ? 
 
 A. Per annum for the two main crossings, and for 
 the other crossings, the crossings of the other five tracks. 
 I take one-tenth of the damage to each, and as there are 
 five it brings the same estimate, that is, $5,760 for the 
 other crossings that are there, making for the five cross- 
 ings the same amount as there is for the one crossing ; 
 that is, five crossings, but ten frogs, making the same 
 amount as upon the main line. I took one-tenth of the 
 amount for each of those crossings as the damage. 
 
 Q. The $5,760 was for the two main crossings? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and I took one-tenth as being one-tenth 
 of the damage to each of the others. That is as near as 
 I can come at it. This is all damage to wheels on a 
 million of cars per annum ; other damage to cars outside 
 of wheels, $2,860 per annum ; that is, to axles, and pins, |Q~g 
 and links, and bodies, and everything connected with 
 cars. Now, on passenger cars, being one-tenth of the 
 whole number, and the cars being double the value, the 
 repairs on the cars being double, three-quarters of a cent 
 being the repairs on freight and a cent and a half being 
 the repairs on passenger cars, I take that as double, 
 making $576 for passenger cars, and that is only on the 
 main line ; as they don't go on the sidings I didn't put it 
 
270 
 
 1076 on the sidings. Now, on locomotives, twelve hundred 
 and fifty dollars, that makes a sum of $19,066. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. The damage to locomotives 
 is for freight locomotives and passenger, I suppose? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, $1,250. The question of loss of time : I 
 take locomotives at $11.00 for a hundred miles; wages of 
 train men, $7.00 ; rent of cars, $30.00 ; locomotive, $8.00; 
 track, $5.00, and you get the value then of running a 
 train a hundred miles, $61.00. Now, if you take that in 
 
 1077 ten hours, it gives you six dollars an hour as the value of 
 the loss of time of a locomotive and of the cars and of 
 the men, and that is a basis and the only basis upon 
 which I can estimate the loss of time ; as time is money, 
 that makes your 2,760 hours $16,560 ; ninety-two trains 
 five minutes each. 
 
 Q. Counting five minutes each detention ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; allowing' that the average is five min- 
 utes detention on the train; that is an assumption, of 
 course ; if my assumption is not right it falls to the ground 
 or is changed, as evidence may bring it in. If I am not 
 right it is the only way of getting at it ; if I am right it 
 is sustained ; and if not, it is not sustained. Now, the 
 possibilities of accident I consider at that crossing as a 
 life a year. 
 
 Q. Have you got thi-ough with the money loss there? 
 
 A. The total amount would be $45,647 ; stop a mo- 
 . ,~Q ment. I had added the whole thing together. The $19,- 
 026 and the damage to persons and the damage to 
 material. 
 
 Q. Leaving out the injury to persons, just the injuries 
 that you have stated ? 
 
 A. I will take the two first items, leaving out the in- 
 jury to persons and injury to material $35,626. 
 
 Q. That is from injury to stock, and detention ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Latimer .J 271 
 
 Q. Now, yon may ^ive what you did on the other 1080 
 basis ? 
 
 A. I merely assumed that the loss of a life is likely to 
 occur once a year where you have a great number of em- 
 ployees to look out for. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. By reason of this Lackawanna 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; well, I don't know that I would say that 
 either; I could not say that that was all; it would be 
 the complication of the crossing, and you may take half 1081 
 to the one and half to the other on that question ; and 
 damage to material if a collision were to happen and two 
 locomotives were to be smashed up at that point, it would 
 simply cost $5,000 to repair them, it might be very ijiuch 
 more, but I assume it as possible, that is merely an 
 assumption. 
 
 Q. $5,000 a year? 
 
 A. $5,000 per annum. It is possible that with a com- 
 plicated crossing like that, and three crossings to look ^"°* 
 out for, and three different roads to look out for, that 
 there would likely be $5,000 worth of damage to material 
 there. I call a life $5,000 because in Ohio $5,000 is esti- 
 mated as a life ; of course it depends on what life it is, 
 but it is generally estimated that it is $5,000 that you 
 have to pay a man in case he is killed. 
 
 Q. Does that complete your estimate ? 
 
 A. That completes my estimate ; you want to have 
 the basis on which I make my estimate ; I can make a 
 paper, if you desire it. 
 
 Q. If there is anything on that subject that will be 
 proper or desirable to state, you may state it ; anything 
 further ? 
 
 A. In this basis I have taken the average of the life 
 of a wheel at fifty thousand miles, and the removal of a 
 wheel $7.50 ; the average mileage of a car seventy-five 
 
272 
 
 1084 miles per day; that requires a renewal of all the wheels 
 in 18 months. 
 
 Q. That and the other estimates are made by you 
 from your actual observation and experience ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And from your knowledge on the subject? 
 
 A. Yes, sii- ; it would be well to state how many frogs 
 and how many crossings I allow, I think, because that 
 would change the basis, and that is easily calculated if I 
 
 1085 am incorrect ; I take it over a division of a hundred 
 miles ; that would strike eighty frogs and ten crossings; 
 that it will take 410,000 blows to wear out a wheel. 
 
 Q. What kind of blows ? 
 - A. Blows on crossings and frogs, and, besides that, so 
 many miles run — the smooth track added to the blows, 
 that is all. 
 
 Cross-examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 1086 Q. You said you had twenty -eight crossings at grade? 
 A. Twenty-six on the main line. 
 
 Q. And two on the branches ? 
 
 A. Yes, we have thirty-five altogether. 
 
 Q. Grade-crossings? 
 
 A. Not all grade-crossings. 
 
 Q. How many grade-crossings? 
 
 A. We have twenty-six on the main line. 
 
 Q. Now, at $45,626 apiece, how much would your 
 twenty-six crossings cost the Atlantic and Great Western 
 Road per annum ? 
 
 A. It would cost a very serious sum ; but we have 
 no crossing where it would cost any such sum as that. 
 
 Q. How much does it cost yon on each of yonr 
 crossings, your twenty-six crossings of the Atlantic and 
 Great Western Road ? 
 
 A. Well, it has been variously estimated from forty 
 
 1087 
 
Latimer x] 273 
 
 cents to a stop ; that amounts to abont probably two 1088 
 hundred thousand dollars per annum. 
 
 Q. On the twenty-six ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; it looits very large, but we don't know 
 where the money goes. 
 
 Q. That would be about eight thousand dollars 
 apiece, would it ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Now, does the Lake Shore here at this point pass 
 six times as many cars as you do over your Atlantic and 1089 
 Great Western ? 
 
 A. On an average, yes, sir, I think it does. 
 
 Q. About six times as much ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, at this particular point. 
 
 Q. So that yours cost eight thousand dollars apiece, 
 and you have twenty-eight, and that, is two hundred 
 thousand dollars? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; that estimate of two hundred thousand 
 
 1090 
 dollars I admit has been called in question. 
 
 Q. Somebody suspected that it was exaggerated ? 
 
 A. No, it has been called in question at times, that 
 amount ; but we claim, in examination of that, that the 
 damage at these crossings, the wrenching and stopping 
 and injury to the cars, is mainly at those particular 
 points; at all wrenching points, mainly, is the difficulty. 
 
 Q. Don't it hurt a car just as much to stop it at one 
 place as another? ,Qg-[^ 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You think if there happens to be a crossing a few 
 feet ahead there is more injury to a car ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there are various circumstances which 
 make it so. 
 
 Q. Does it hurt it any more to start it because there 
 happens to be a crossing upon roads in advance? 
 
 A. No, sir; unless you want to get out of the way of 
 a train ? 
 
274 
 
 1092 Q. If you wanted to stop at a tank, the damage 
 would not be near as much as if you wanted to stop at a 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. Well, sometimes it would ; it depends altogether 
 on circumstances ; there you are not in danger of run- 
 ning into anything ; and you can run by and back up if 
 necessary. 
 
 Q. In your estimate here you figure the damages of 
 the frogs and wheels ; that would be entirely applicable 
 ^^^^ to the existing frogs, or to the frogs of both the Erie 
 crossing and the Lackawanna crossing ? 
 
 A. In right-angle frogs, where the frogs are at right 
 angles, you bound from one side to the other of the 
 opening. 
 
 Q. Do I understand you to say that if another cross- 
 ing is put in by the Lackawanna Road, then this damage 
 will be any more at the two crossings, the Erie crossing 
 and the Lackawanna crossing ; or do you charge it all to 
 the Lackawanna crossing. 
 
 A. I mean specially in this ; taking the Lackawanna 
 crossing, in that amount of 19 
 
 Q. Last night you promised me you would figure up 
 how much damage was sustained by the present Erie 
 crossing, how much do you say ? 
 
 A. Well, I make out the same amount of wheels, I 
 can't make it any differently from that ; as to the time, 
 ;iQg5 the time, I presume, is the same in both cases. 
 
 Q. That is 16,500 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I took the Lackawanna crossing at the 
 same time, on account of the various other crossings it 
 has to go through. 
 
 Q. Damage to axles, would you put that in ? 
 
 A. I would take one-half to each, because when you 
 have the three you have got to have your eyes on more 
 than one place at one time, in order to see that you are 
 not run over. 
 
Latimer x] 275 
 
 Q. Passenger cars the same, one-half to each, and 109fi 
 damage to locomotive one-half each. 
 
 A. No, sir, I didn't say so. 
 
 Q. Now, give me in dollars what you will say ; your 
 estimate of the cost of the present Erie crossing per an- 
 num to the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. Well, I don't see that there is any diiference in 
 the crossing, in the two. 
 
 Q. Give it in dollars ? 
 
 A. $35,626, besides the question of accidents and 1097 
 damage to material. 
 
 By Com. Mc Alpine : Q. Accidents to life ? 
 
 A. In addition to that you must estimate the accidents 
 to hfe and material, I call that five hundred dollars 
 to each road, that would make forty thousand six hun- 
 dred and twenty-six. 
 
 Q. For the Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I ought probably to say that I think 
 when three crossings are there, the damage to life will 
 be greater — the liability ; I think that is so. 
 
 Q. Now, you said that the Lake Shore damage, be- 
 cause of the Erie crossing, is $40,626 ; now, how much 
 will be the aggregate to the Lake Shore of both cross- 
 ings, that is, the Erie and the Lackawanna, too ? 
 
 A. I could not get the amount of cars without going 
 to the Erie road and studying up the question. 
 
 Q. You state the Erie crossing damages the Lake^„„Q 
 Shore $40,626 a year? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, I want to know how much the Eric and 
 Lackawanna roads together will damage the Lake Shore 
 road ? 
 
 A. I would have to have the data from the Erie road. 
 
 Q. No, I mean the combined injury ? 
 
 A. I should take it that is the aggregate of the two 
 sums given me. 
 
276 
 
 1100 Q. That would be eighty thousand dollars? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you have got another uuder-loss of time, 
 $16,560 in each case ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is on a basis that after this road was 
 built, that there would be just as much delay on the other 
 as there is here. 
 
 Q. That is, that each of those roads is going to delay 
 every single train that goes over tlie Lake Shore road, 
 
 1101 five minutes? 
 
 A. No, sir, I think there will be a great deal more de- 
 lay in the switching in the yard. 
 
 Q. That is the way you get out of it ? 
 
 A. That is the way I get out of it. 
 
 Q. How much do you think both crossings will delay 
 the through trains on the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. Well, I suppose by the passenger trains it would 
 
 be an average of five minutes all through; I have only 
 
 ^"■^ taken half in my estimate; whatever basis I have here, is 
 
 subject to revision upon certain figures ; they are here 
 
 and they can be tested. 
 
 Q. Then you are not able to make any calculation 
 here upon the data tliat you have ? 
 
 A. 1 have made a calculation from the data that I 
 have. 
 
 Q. Are you able to make any that is satisfactory to 
 
 yourself. 
 1103 
 
 A. It would be utterly impossible for anybody. 
 
 Q. Can't you answer my question, yes or no, are you 
 able to make any calculation that is satisfactory to your- 
 self? 
 
 A. I don't want to answer you in any other way than 
 is proper. 
 
 Q. Will you answer my question, yes or no ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I will answer it in a way that ought to be 
 satisfactory to you. 
 
Latimer x] 277 
 
 Q. Do you know what the operating expenses of the 1104 
 Atlantic and Great Western Road were in 1876? 
 
 A. Three millions and a half probably, or three and 
 a quarter millions. 
 
 Q. Those were the operating expenses you think ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much it cost for the repairs and 
 machinery, including the repair of engines, tenders, pas- 
 senger and baggage cars, freight cars, tools and ma- 
 chinery in shop, and all the items about the shop, and 1105 
 everything of the sort, clerks, oil and fuel ? 
 
 A. 1 have calculated and put it in a chart many times, 
 but I don't remember what it is now ; you can't expect 
 me to keep all those things in my mind. 
 
 Q. Was it over two hundred thousand dollars? 
 
 A. If you will give me the figures, and I can put my 
 eye on figures as I have made them, I can tell you ; 1 
 don't recollect. 
 
 Q. Your road is a broad-gauge road? 
 
 A. No, sir, not now. 
 
 Q. Now, in your three millions of dollars, or three 
 and a half, was there a million dollars, about, for repairs 
 of bridges, repairs of telegraph, cost of iron used in re- 
 pairs, repairs of buildings, i-epairs of fences and gates, 
 and taxes? 
 
 A. My remembrance is that it was somewhere about 
 seven hundred and sixty thousand dollars. .-.j.^, 
 
 Q. You are right into about two hundred and fifty 
 thousand dollars? 
 
 A. Well, you see, remembering back a good many 
 years, I can't tell. 
 
 Q. Once in a while freight cars and passenger cars 
 get hurt at some other point than crossings? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They wear out at other points than crossings? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
278 
 
 1108 Q. So you would not want to charge to your twenty- 
 eight crossings the entire repairs of your rolling stock 
 on that road ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. About what proportion of the entire wear and 
 tear on your road on rolling stock ought to be attrib- 
 uted to the crossings, what per cent. ? 
 
 A. Well, you can see that to say that would be 
 merely guessing at it ; you wouldn't wish me to do 
 
 1 109 such a thing as that. 
 
 Q. In your operating expenses you would not charge 
 anything for office expenses, or agents or clerks ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or loading and unloading freight ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or porters, watchmen and switch-tenders? 
 
 A. You would switch-tenders. 
 
 Q. Fuel? 
 ^^^^ A. Yes, sir ; you would have to have fuel. 
 
 Q. How much fuel would you have to charge ? 
 
 A. I don't remember; five cents a mile, I think 
 it is. 
 
 Q. Have you not, in your testimony that you 
 have given here in regard to the cost of your twenty- 
 eight crossings, charged those crossings with thirty- 
 three per cent, of the entire repairs of cars and rolling 
 stock on your road ? 
 
 A. I don't know whether I have or not. 
 
 Q. This is some of the statistics in regard to your 
 own road that you are not familiar with, are you ? 
 
 A. I am about as familiar as most people are ; I 
 don't carry them all in my mind, but I have a chart in 
 which I have put them all carefully, so that I can at 
 a glance tell them ; it is impossible for me to keep 
 them, any more than you can a law-book in your mind, 
 
Latimer x J 279 
 
 or state all your cases; of course 1 don't want to state 1113 
 anything here that cannot be verified. 
 
 Q. Damage of frogs to the wheels at main crossings, . 
 you say that would be $5,760. How much is that per 
 wheel ? 
 
 A. It is eighteen ten-thousandths of a cent — one 
 hundred and forty-four thousandths of a cent for eight 
 wheels. 
 
 Q. How did you come to settle on that sum ? 
 
 A. I have given that before; I take the average life HI-' 
 of a wheel, of fifty thousand miles run, and the cost of 
 a wheel at $15.00 value, of renewal, $7.50 ; average mile- 
 age of a car, seventy-five miles per day ; and, therefore, 
 it is assumed that the eight wheels of a car. are re- 
 newed once in eighteen months, in which time the car 
 passes over a division of one hundred miles of the Lake 
 Shore road five thousand times. 
 
 Q. What in the world has that got to do with the 
 force of the blow at the frog ? 
 
 A. I have to simply divide it among the number of 
 blows ; I take a wheel running a mile on a smooth track, 
 it would hurt it very little ; if you strike a blow at a 
 frog or a crossing, you do the only damage probably 
 that is done in that mile ; it is fair to assume that if I 
 strike the IjIows, that the blows do the damage, and if I 
 assume that, I come at it as near as I can ; I cannot pre- 
 tend to say that I am correct, but I have assumed a , , , - 
 basis. 
 
 Q. Do you have any reports of where your car-wheels 
 are broken? 
 
 A. No, sir; they do not come to me. 
 
 Q. Do the Atlantic and Great Western have any 
 such reports ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; certainly. 
 ■ Q. Don't those reports show where breaks have oc- 
 curred ? 
 
280 
 
 1116 A. Of course they do. 
 
 Q. I suppose if a car leaves Buftalo all right, and it 
 was broken at Hamburgh, it might possibly be reported 
 to somebody in connection with the Lake Shore road 
 that there was a broken wheel at Hamburgh ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; yon can't always tell what part of the 
 track it is broken. 
 
 Q. Have you any statistics so that you can tell how 
 many car-wheels are broken at these crossings? Have 
 
 1117 yon ever had anj' such statistics? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I have not, but I have found that the 
 crossings seem to break the most of the wheels. 
 
 Q. How did you find that out ? 
 
 A. Simply by talking it all over with the road-mas- 
 ters. 
 
 Q. You get your information from^^the road-masters ; 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is the only place ? 
 ^^^^ A. I could not be on every place along the line at 
 once. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say a car-wheel don't wear out 
 on a level track ? 
 
 A. Of course it does, but if you give it a nick on 
 the crossing there, then the brake catches it ; it flattens 
 and wears out; flatten it in any way, then your truck 
 strikes it, and it wears out. 
 
 Q. How big a nick does it take to start it ? 
 
 A. A very small one, I should think ; anything that 
 would catch the end of a brake. 
 
 Q. Common switch-frogs ? 
 
 A. Not with a road with proper switch-points ; there 
 is no more danger at a switch-point than any other part 
 of the rail, because it is smooth. 
 
 Q. But you have charged, as I understand you, in 
 your calculations — you have said that the pounding that' 
 a wheel gets at this frog is equivalent to tlie poundino' 
 
Daly.] 281 
 
 that it would get on a mile of track; is that it — is that 1130 
 what you said ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; on a perfectly smooth track, I think 
 that is a fair assumption. Now, I will say, 1 will make 
 this statement in writing, and if I find any errors in my 
 evidence, I want, of course, to have the privilege of cor- 
 recting them and sending them here under oath. 
 
 William Daly, sworn on behalf of the petitioner, 
 and examined by Mr. Greene, testified as follows : 113] 
 
 Q. You reside in Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? 
 
 A. Freight foreman for the Lake Shore and Michi- 
 gan Southern Railway. 
 
 Q. And how many years has that been your position? 
 
 A. About three. 
 
 Q. Where have you been engaged during the last 
 three years — at what point upon the road? 
 
 A. At wliat is known as the Eiie transfer-house. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar witli the movement of trains 
 and cars at that locality during the last three years? 
 
 A. I am, somewhat. 
 
 Q. At the Erie crossing, liotii upon the Erie and 
 Lake Sliore roads ? 
 
 A. 1 am. 
 
 Q. And tiie transfer business there transacted? ,,„o 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Commissioner McAlpine : Q. Is that the crossing 
 at Sandusky street; is that called the Erie transfer? 
 
 A. The Erie transfer, yes, sir. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : 
 
 Q. Will you state to the commissioners the manner 
 in which the business of the Erie and Lake Shore com- 
 panies is transacted at that point, more particular in ref- 
 erence to the use and occupation of the traclvs of the 
 
282 
 
 1124 Lake Shore and Erie at the point where the Lacka- 
 wanna propose to cross? 
 
 A. Well, I can show you a little better on the map. 
 
 Q. If you will go on and put it in language as well 
 as you can, so as to describe it, because the stenog- 
 rapher cannot take down the map ? 
 
 A. Well, we have several tracks there that we work 
 on, one we know as the Hart track, and that we de- 
 liver all east-bouud freight on ; let me correct that, I 
 
 1125 said all east-bound Ireight, I should have said all east- 
 bound through cars on the Hart track. 
 
 Q. Which is the track you call the Hart track ? 
 
 A. The southeast track, it runs down and intersects 
 with the Erie railway. 
 
 Q. It is the track marked in blue lines ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, the southeast track ; on that track we de- 
 livered all onr east-bound cars with through business ; 
 those cars that can run through we deliver on that track 
 ^^'^" to connect with the Erie at the lower end ; the next 
 track is the Erie railway grain track, it is a low track ; 
 the next track is the diamond track where we shove our 
 crippled cars, etc., cars that have to be transferred, and 
 use a spout to transfer grain down to the other Erie rail- 
 way cars. 
 
 Q. That is an elevated track ? 
 
 A. That is an elevated track, so is the Hart an ele- 
 vated track, and our diamond track runs here to a stub 
 1127 . 
 
 end ; there is a platform that stands in here ; we unload 
 
 grain off this diamond track, and in the meantime we 
 unload logs and railroad iron and such stuff as that on 
 this platform ; we use this platform for rough freight ; 
 there is three tracks on the southeast of the platform, 
 and then comes the platform, and then comes the Erie 
 railway platform track, as they call it ; there is where 
 they receive coarse freight and deliver coarse freight to 
 
Daly.J 283 
 
 us, such as stone, railroad iron, logs, or anything of the 1138 
 kind, where the weather don't damage it. 
 
 By Commissioner Clark : Q. State right in that con- 
 nection to whom these tracks belong? 
 
 A. Those marked in blue to the Lake Shore, and in 
 red to the Erie ; then we have another track running into 
 the transfer-house here, where we unload all perishable 
 property, and where we load all west-bound freight that 
 is crippled, crippled cars, or mixed freight, it is trans- 
 ferred from one car to another into this building here. I'^Q 
 
 Q. This Lake Shore house-track cuts the Erie track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it crosses the Erie track. 
 
 Q. The others you have mentioned, none of them do? 
 
 A. No, sir, but — 
 
 Q. But all the tracks that you have mentioned are 
 crossed by the proposed crossing of the Lackawanna ? 
 
 A. All excepting the Erie railway platform track, 
 they propose to extend that up on our track ; as com- 
 pleted, the Erie platform track would be crossed by the 
 Lackawanna ; there is another track where we receive 
 our west-bound freight, that is called the dock track, it 
 holds twenty-six cars ; we receive all empty cars re- 
 turned from the Erie railway to us, and all our west- 
 bound freight through business on that track. 
 
 Q. Tell me, if you please, as to the necessary move- 
 ment of the cars over the proposed crossing, in order to 
 transact the business that is now done upon the Hart^^j^gj^ 
 track, the low grain track, the diamond track, the Erie 
 platform track, and the house track ; state the movement 
 of the cars in reference to their passing and switching 
 back and forth over the point where the Lackawanna 
 proposes to cross ; the house track intersects and unites 
 with one of the main tracks of the Lake Shore immedi- 
 ately north of the proposed Lackawanna track, does it 
 not? 
 
 A. I think it has been changed ; I am not positive. 
 
284 
 
 1132 but I thought there wus talk of changing it, running it 
 up further ; I am not positive whether Mr. Moran has 
 done so lately or not. 
 
 (First part of the previous question read by the 
 stenographer.) 
 
 A. Well, after the ears arrive, and are in the yard 
 here, after they have been switched and put down in 
 the yard in diiferent tracks, when we can get this cross- 
 ing from the Erie Railway folks, and get a chance 
 
 1133 from our own trains going in and out ; this house track 
 is clear wherever we have those cars chalked to be put ; 
 we pull clear up to the bridge, up above all those 
 switches; one car may be marked for the Hart track, 
 another for the diamond track, another for the house 
 track, and they go up and switch l)ackwards and for- 
 wards until they get that train switehe: or those tracks 
 full ; whatever they have left they run down into the 
 
 yard again. 
 
 1134 
 
 Q. How many cars do those trfckshold? 
 
 A. The Hart track will hold 36 cars to clear the 
 diamond track ; when we block the diamond track with 
 them, the Erie can get on about thirty-eight cars from 
 the point of the sti'eet ; putting a car right on the street 
 and bringing it up to clear the main track, we can get 
 38 cars. 
 
 Q. By bringing it up to Sandusky street ? 
 -^jgg A. Yes, sir ; we can get on 3y, an ' sometimes, if 
 they are short, 39, but as a rule 35 is tlie number it will 
 hold ; the diamond track, so that it will work, will hold 
 about twenty cars; we eau use 25, but 20 is the 
 number. 
 
 Q. What do you run those for ? 
 
 A. To debver on the Erie road ; on the diamond 
 track we transfer crippled cars, cars that cannot run ; 
 they cannot be i-epairod until they are unloaded. 
 
 Q. You rmi them up there and unload them ? 
 
Daly.J 285 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; a car with grain, with broken draw- 1136 
 bolts, etc., tliey cannot get in to repair it until it is un- 
 loaded. 
 
 Q. How is it in reference to the portion of time that 
 those tracks are actually occupied with cars? 
 
 A. Those tracks are occupied with cars, either 
 switching or Ulled, all the time ; pretty much all the 
 time on this diamond track and on this ; there is more 
 than room on the diamond — this low grain track — 
 than 20, but we cannot use them. 1137 
 
 Q. The house track ; how are the cars transferred 
 to and from that, smd for what purpose, and how fre- 
 quently ? 
 
 A. As I say, we unload flour, or any perishable prop- 
 erty ; they are pulled up to the bridge and switched in 
 over all these crossings, sometimes brought up together 
 with the Hart track, more times drawn up alone. 
 
 Q. You have to get them back again ; what is done 
 before they are made up into trains ? Give it from the ^^^^ 
 arrival ot a car unloaded, until it is sent away again: 
 how many times does it cross over ? 
 
 A. If the Erie folks have west-bound freight I 
 have to ask the yard-master for empty cars; he will 
 bring them from some portion of the yard ; he will 
 bring them up towards the bridge, past the proposed 
 crossing, and into the transfer-house. 
 
 Q. And back again over the proposed crossing into 
 the transfer-house ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; then we load those cars up in the trans- 
 fer-house ready for trains ; then they are pnlled out 
 over the proposed crossing, over the switch, over the cir- 
 cle track that is there ; they go down on that side, and 
 down on No. 1 track back again over the proposed cross- 
 ing, down into the yard on to those two tracks that stand 
 there, Ryan's and Strong's. 
 
286 
 
 1140 Q. Tlien when it is sent off again, does it again go 
 over the proposed crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And also when it comes in, when it is received, 
 before any of the movements that you have spoken of, 
 it passes all over this proposed crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it not frequently the case that cars destined 
 for any of these tracks that you mention here are likely 
 
 1141 in switching, and before you are able to reach the par- 
 ticular car in order to send it upon the proper track, is 
 it not often the case, and usually the case, that it passes 
 over the point of the proposed crossing quite a number 
 of times in addition to what you have said ? 
 
 A. It is. 
 
 Q. In order to distribute the cars, each time that a 
 car is sent back upon one of these tracks, the whole train 
 may have to pass over the proposed crossing once for 
 1^^^ the delivery ? 
 
 A. Not the whole train don't pass over the crossing, 
 but a portion of the train. 
 
 Q. Well, a portion of the train. 
 
 A. Yes, sir; a portion of the train will have to pass 
 back and forwards over that. 
 
 Q. A crossing of a train has to be made at that point 
 — a train or some portion of it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Suppose they have a train with twenty-five cars 
 in it, and there are scattered along through that train a 
 half a dozen cars, and they are destined for each of these 
 tracks. Now, in order to deliver them, you would have 
 to run that train back and forth a half a dozen times, 
 would you not ? 
 
 A. We would have to run it back and forth as many 
 times as we had cars for different tracks. 
 
 Q. Once for each car ? 
 
 1143 
 
Daly.] 287 
 
 A. Yes, sir; or twice. 1144 
 
 Q. Unless there happened to be two cars for each 
 track? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, which is not usual, and we sometimes 
 liave twenty-five ears for one track. I say, after the 
 trains have been switclied and down in the yard, they 
 are pulled up here, and then seesawed. 
 
 Q. That is an addition to the necessary switching for 
 the distribution of cars when they arrive ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; that is in addition to that. lam not 1145 
 saying anything about that. I am merely saying what is 
 to be done there when the cars are pulled up to be de- 
 livered, put onto those tracks. 
 
 Q. State to the gentlemen about the detentions and 
 inconveniences that now exist, and have for the last three 
 years, caused by the Erie crossing there ? 
 
 A. Well, at the present time the amount of business 
 that we are doing, it takes ns all our time to do our 
 work, and a little more. It is very hard to do our work, 
 as it is, with the inconveniences there of the crossing, 
 because with our freight trains coming in and out, and 
 making it a single track where the proposed crossing of 
 Lackawanna is, we use that as a single track to our east 
 and west-bound trains, one of those main tracks; it is a 
 single track there for east and west-bound trains; west- 
 bound trains cross over and take the left-hand track go- 
 ing out, and the east-bound train coming in takes the |^„ 
 right-hand, as the yard is on our right hand coming in, 
 and our work is all done at this point between the Erie 
 crossing and this proposed crossing. 
 
 Q. That is principally between Sandusky street, as 
 shown on the map, and the Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. How far does it extend up to- 
 wards the bridge, that work tliat you have been speaking 
 of, how near the bridge ? 
 
288 
 
 1148 A. "Well, to do our work, very oftentimes, we have 
 to run within twenty or thirty feet of the bridge, but as 
 a rule not quite as far as that. 
 
 Q. The nearer you approach to the intersection of 
 the Erie and the Lake Shore tracks coming from the 
 bridge, the more local work there is that is done over 
 the track, is there not ? It increases as yon approach 
 that point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it increases as you approach that point. 
 
 1149 By counsel, resuming: Q. Does this map, "Exhibit 
 No. 3," correctly locate the tracks that you have men- 
 tioned, and the switches, and the points of intersection, 
 and the cross-over from one to the other main tracks of 
 the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. It does, with one exception, that the platform 
 track does not now connect with our track at the pres- 
 ent time. 
 
 By Mr. Clark : Q. Where does it stop ? 
 1^^^ A. It stops about forty feet southerly from the Erie 
 platform, but they propose to extend that track up there, 
 and propose to extend the platform to a culvert that is 
 in there ; the proposed Lackawanna road runs across the 
 south end of the culvert, and they propose to run the 
 platform up to that. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. That is, they propose to 
 
 extend this platform southerly about the point where the 
 
 proposed tracks of the Lackawanna will be? 
 1151 
 
 Q. Within about, I should judge, twenty or twenty- 
 five feet. 
 
 Q. And is that extension and increase of the size of 
 the platform necessary for the proper transaction of the 
 business of the two roads there, the Erie and the Lake 
 Shore? 
 
 A. It is necessary ; it is absolutely necessary. 
 
 Q. The proposed extension of the Erie platform 
 
Daly.J 289 
 
 track would be substantially the portion now marked in 1152 
 blue on " Exhibit 3," would it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And would cross the point where they [Propose to 
 locate the Lackawanna tracks, would it? 
 
 A. It would, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to the necessity for the' con- 
 struction of that track, the Erie platform track, in order 
 to transact the business of the company, or the com- 
 panies, at that point ? ] 153 
 
 A. It is necessary, absolutely necessary. 
 
 Q. Why ? 
 
 A. In the first place, this track has got to be ex- 
 tended to give me room enough to do the work, and if 
 that platform is extended, certainly this track must be 
 extended up there. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. And further? 
 
 A. And further, because very oftentimes we have 
 crippled cars to be thrown back to the Erie road that ^^^^ 
 come back onto these other tracks; they have to 
 go back to the Erie road, and they have either to 
 be mixed up with the Hart track cars, or we have got 
 to have some track to put them on ; and it was proposed 
 to put in this track so that the Erie conld take them off. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. That would have a ten- 
 dency to reduce the amount of the switching that you 
 have to do here ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And has your experience denjonstrated that the 
 switching necessarily done here now, to accommodate 
 the present and past business of these roads, is siich as 
 to produce at times, delays and detentions serious in their 
 nature ? 
 
 A. It has, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you may tell us about how long at times 
 
290 
 
 1156 operation upon the Lake Shore is suspended, or upon 
 the Erie is suspended ? 
 
 A. Well, I have known it to be forty-five minutes 
 where the Erie folks have taken the crossings there, and 
 our switching business has all been delayed forty-five min- 
 utes; it does not always take as long as that, but I have 
 known it to be as high as that, and I have known our road 
 to block the Erie road from doing their work the same 
 amount of time; it is, a man might say, a perfect see- 
 
 1157 saw there all the time, or pretty much all the time, at 
 that point ? 
 
 Q. To put in another road there that you would as- 
 sume would occupy the time that the Erie does, would it, 
 in your judgment, be possible to properly transact the 
 business there of your roads ? 
 
 A. I think if there was another crossing there and 
 they did as much business across that crossing, or one- 
 half the business across that crossing that the Erie Rail- 
 1158 
 
 way folks do, that it would be almost impossible to do 
 
 our business there ; as it is, we require a good deal more 
 room to do our work, to do it properly and in good 
 shape, than we have got. 
 
 Q. You may explain about the dock track ? 
 
 A. Well, this little short track, the dock track, holds 
 twenty-six cars. 
 
 Q. That would be crossed by the proposed location, 
 1159 ^^°'^1^ i*- "ot, by the Lackawanna road ? 
 
 A. Somewheres about its center; that track holds 
 twenty-six cars, and we have taken off from that track 
 in a day, not including crippled cars and cars switched 
 back, we have taken 344 cars in one day ofi" from that 
 little track. 
 
 Q. Delivered to you by the Erie? 
 
 A. Delivered to us by the Erie ; those cars have to 
 be pulled down into the yard, to the east end of the yard, 
 then the engine runs around them and runs up to the 
 
Daly.J 291 
 
 west end of those switches when there is cripples or 1160 
 empty cars in on them ; sometimes we don't allow empty 
 cars to go west with loaded cars; send them west in 
 trains by themselves ; it is necessary then that those cars 
 should be taken hold of and pulled up over the proposed 
 crossing; sometimes, not always, but very often, and 
 allow the west-bound freight to run back onto those 
 tracks, and shift out the cripples, and bring them up over 
 this proposed crossing ; either deliver them on the Hart's 
 track when we can, or hold them in the yard in some 1161 
 manner and deliver them back onto that dock track 
 again ; wherever we have the best chance and the most 
 room, and that is why I say if this proposed track is put 
 in, we could deliver the cripples to the Erie onto this 
 track. 
 
 Q. Would the crossing at grade on the proposed 
 location very seriously interfere with the business, that is 
 
 and has been done upon this dock track ? 
 
 1162 
 A. It would ; it would in the first place shorten up 
 
 the track. 
 
 Q. Cut it in two ? 
 
 A. Cut it in two ; we could not put in so many cars 
 on it, and the Erie folks could not deliver so many cars 
 at one time, and everytime that we went on there to pull 
 the train we would have to back up. 
 
 Q. And having the track, with the right of way by 
 the Lackawanna, would necessarily suspend crossing at ^^^.^ 
 each and every one of these tracks while it had the track, 
 wouldn't it ? 
 
 A. It would, sir. 
 
 Q. As well as the main tracks of the Erie ? 
 
 A. It would. 
 
 Q. And the main tracks of the Lake Shore? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Cuts them all in two, in other words? 
 
 A. Cuts them all in two, and at certain times of day 
 
292 
 
 1164 should tlie Lackawanna folks or Erie folks bother us 
 there in receiving cars from them it would seriously 
 delay the freight. 
 
 Q. The departure of freight trains ? 
 A. The departure of freight trains ; and not only that, 
 bnt it would delay the delivery of freight at Cleveland ; 
 whenever a train leaving here called train " 39 " that 
 arrives in Cleveland at 5.15, I think it is, and the freight 
 going to Cleveland town don't get onto that train, if it 
 1165 don't get onto "39" and takes the next train leaving 
 here, it misses that day's delivery at Cleveland ; that has 
 been shown to me several times by telegrams from 
 Cleveland to be very particular to get o& freight for 
 Cleveland on train "39," and fifteen or twenty minutes 
 delay there would stop us from getting the train made up. 
 Q. How about all the freight received from and de- 
 livered to the Central Railroad Company being com- 
 pelled to cross at the proposed crossing ? 
 
 A. All freight in and out, east and west, over our 
 I'oad has to go over backwards and forwards over our 
 crossing. 
 
 Q. As well that transferred to the Central as to the 
 Erie? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And how with reference to having to cut the 
 freight trains at various street crossings, when they stop 
 by reason of the other road having the track ? 
 
 A. At the present time when the Erie Railroad has 
 the track, our trains pull up as far as they can towards 
 the Erie crossing, then they have to cut all streets back 
 of that. 
 
 Q. How many streets '. 
 
 A. Well, there is three streets. Elk, Perry and Eul- 
 ton. If they should go down on some of those side- 
 tracks coming out on the side-track, they mio-ht have to 
 
Daly x] 293 
 
 cut Perry, but not very often. If it is a long train of 1168 
 empty cars the}' wc^ild have to cut Perry street. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. How long have you been there at this point ? 
 
 A. I have been there about ten years, but 1 have been 
 foreman about three years. 
 
 Q. During that ten years have you ever known a time 
 when a Lackawanna train would have had five minutes 
 in which to cross to make that crossing if it had had a neg 
 train there? 
 
 A. I have, sir. 
 
 Q. More than once ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long a time have you known when that cross- 
 ing there was not actually occupied ? 
 
 A. Well, that I could not state. 
 
 Q. You have half an hour ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. HW 
 
 Q. An hour? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, T think so. 
 
 Q. Two hours? 
 
 A. No, not two hours, and I won't really say an hour. 
 I don't know any time where there has been an honr of 
 the time that some of those crossings have not been used. 
 
 Q. Have you known within three months of periods 
 of half an hour when that is vacant? 
 
 A. i have. 
 
 Q. There are periods every day, are there not ? 
 
 A. There is. 
 
 Q. Of more than half an hour? 
 
 A. I won't say of more than half an hour. 
 
 Q. Ofhalf anhour? 
 
 A. Well, I should judge so. I can only say this from 
 just merely my opinion. My opinion is that it has been 
 so. I won't say to the exact time. 
 
294 
 
 1173 Q. Don't you think that there are during the day in- 
 tervals of five minutes that aggregate, all told, as much as 
 five hours a day when a train could cross there v?ithout 
 delaying anybody ? 
 
 A. Well, it depends a good deal upon the business. 
 
 Q. That is, that there are sixty such intervals during 
 the day when five minutes can be spared to allow a 
 Lackawanna train to pass over ? 
 
 A. Well, I don't know as I can really answer that 
 1173 question just as you put it. 
 
 Q. Don't you think that that would be within reason, 
 within bounds? 
 
 A. Well, it is according to the business that we do 
 there. As I say, some days we do more, and some days 
 less. 
 
 Q. You are doing a pretty flush business at present ? 
 
 A. Not at present. 
 
 Q. Very light? 
 ■'■''* A. It is light. I say light — 1 mean the switching. 
 
 Q. You were here Saturday? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have been here every day since this hearing 
 commenced ? 
 
 A . Most every day. I have been here every day, but 
 I have not heard all the evidence. 
 
 Q. Are you down there nights ? 
 
 A. Sometimes I am. 
 
 Q. All night ? 
 
 A. Not all night. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the switching goes on in 
 the night or not ? 
 
 A. I know it does. 
 
 Q. All night long ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. With just as much vigor as during the day ? 
 
 A. Well, I don't know whether it is as much vigor ; 
 
 1175 
 
Daly xj 295 
 
 I know we get as much work done at night as during the 1176 
 day-time. My men report so to me. 
 
 Q. Do you think it keeps right up all during the 
 twenty-four hours ? 
 
 A. It does, because I have men working there during 
 the twenty-four hours. 
 
 Q. How many switching engines have you employed 
 there ? 
 
 A. Well, there are four switching engines in the yard, 
 but there are six hundred days a year charged up to the 1177 
 work at that point, the Erie transfer-house delivery of 
 freight to and from. 
 
 Q. That makes a little less than two engines at work ? 
 
 A. Well, it is over that. I took an average of that 
 from one month. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by six hundred days being 
 charged up? 
 
 A. Over six hundred days is charged to the transfer- 
 house and engine. We have one night and one day to do 
 our work there. 
 
 Q. Then practically joa have but two engines at work 
 there ? 
 
 A. Two engines at work doing our work. I call our 
 work the South Shore line business. Business delivered 
 to and received from the Erie Eailway at this point. But 
 there are other engines doing the switching down in the 
 yard backwards and forwards, down in the yard switch- ^^^^ 
 ing this freight for us. 
 
 Q. How many engines are there in the yard, all told ? 
 
 A. Four, I believe, it is. 
 
 Q. Two at work in the night ? 
 
 A. Four in the day-time and three in the night. 
 
 Q. Then there is only three-fourths as much work 
 done during the night as there is during the day ? 
 
 A. Well, I think there is as much. 
 
 Q. You think there is ? 
 
296 
 
 1180 A. I think there is. 
 
 Q. So that one engine during the day accomplishes 
 very little, or what ? 
 
 A. No, there is extra business, such as going across 
 this proposed crossing out to the " Y " to receive cars. 
 
 Q. Your business has been pretty flush for the last 
 two years, has it not ? 
 
 A. Pretty flush. 
 
 Q. Why don't you extend that platform ? 
 
 1181 A. Well, sir, to answer that question, 1 have been 
 trying very hard to get our people to make a good many 
 improvements there. 
 
 Q. And they never have seen occasion to make them ? 
 A. They have talked it over ; they say it will be done. 
 Q. They never have done it yet? 
 A. ' They have not done it yet. 
 
 Q. You never have commenced to extend that track 
 until recently ? 
 
 1182 ^_ Recently they filled all this portion in, between 
 the end of this platform across those tracks there clear 
 up to Sandusky street. 
 
 Q. When ? 
 
 A. Last fall. 
 
 Q. Was it a trestle before that time ? 
 
 A. It was a trestle before that time. 
 
 Q. And you simply filled up the trestle ? 
 
 A. Filled up the trestle. 
 
 How long had that trestle becTi there ? 
 The trestle has been there since the house was 
 built, 1869; that is one of them. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any greater necessity for changes 
 down there since the Lackawanna proposed to cross than 
 you did before ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I have not. 
 
 Q. But there has been a little more activity on the 
 part of the company in making changes, has there not ? 
 
 1183 Q 
 A 
 
Daly X] .297 
 
 A. None, sir. 1184 
 
 Q. I see you are extending one track down there 
 since the Lackawanna filed this map, are you not ? 
 
 A. Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. You don't know that you are extending any new 
 track there ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you remember seeing Archibald and mj'self 
 upon the spot some four weeks ago ? 
 
 A. I do, sir. 1185 
 
 Q. We had a talk with you then about the situation, 
 did we not ? 
 
 A. You did, sir. 
 
 Q. You explained to us the stoppage of all these 
 trains on either side of the proposed crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, 1 told you they stopped. 
 
 Q. On that occasion didn't you tell us that it would 
 be quite as convenient to have your transfer-tracks on 
 the north side of the transfer-house as the position in ■^^°° 
 which they are now located ? 
 
 A. I will explain that to you ? 
 
 Q. Answer it, yes or no ? 
 
 A. Well, I cannot answer it yes or no. 
 
 Q. On that occasion didn't you tell us that it would 
 
 be quite as convenient to have your transfer-tracks on the 
 
 north side of the transfer-house as the position in which 
 
 they are now located ? ,,_„ 
 
 ■' 1187 
 
 A. I didn't. 
 
 Q. What did you say on this subject ? 
 
 A. I said it would be handier to us to have the Erie 
 Railway folks deliver us their west-bound freight on the 
 north side of the transfer-house instead of going over 
 onto this little dock track, that is what I said. 
 
 Q. Didn't you say that proper economical use of the 
 lands of the two companies there, called for the building 
 
298 
 
 1188 "f additional tracks on the other side of the transfer- 
 Iiouse, that is the north side ? 
 
 A. I don't really understand you. 
 
 Q. Didn't you say that it would be better for all par- 
 ties to have more tracks on that side? 
 
 A. I know it would be better for us to have the west- 
 bound freight delivered to us on the north side, but I 
 didn't say anything about the east-bound. 
 
 Q. Would there be any objection, any inconvenience 
 
 1189 to the Erie people, to have their transfer-freight delivered 
 over there that you know of, the freight that is going 
 west on your road ? 
 
 A. Not that I know of; I don't know anything about 
 how much these cars would take, or anything about that. 
 
 Q. Didn't you tell us that the construction of new 
 tracks on the north side of the transfer-house would do 
 away with the necessity of what you call the Erie dock 
 track ? 
 
 1190 A_ I Jon't think I did ; you merely asked me the 
 question if it couldn't be done, and I said yes, I would 
 like to see it if it could be ; that was about the sum and 
 substance of the question that was there at the time. 
 
 Q. Do you know who made this map i 
 A. I don't. 
 
 Q. The Erie platform-track, so far as it is marked in 
 blue, has no existence except in the imagination of the 
 
 man that drew this map ? 
 
 1191 
 
 A. It has an existence somewheres in the neighbor- 
 hood of forty feet southwesterly of the platform. 
 
 Q. It has no existence at the point of your crossing? 
 
 A. No, sir, not at the present time. 
 
 Q. What proportion of your east-bound freight do 
 you deliver to the Erie Railway ? 
 
 A. I don't understand ; the proportion of the east- 
 bound freight from the west ? 
 
 Q. From the west? 
 
Daly x] 299 
 
 A. Well, that I couldn't tell you, for I never have 1192 
 occasion to see the figures that go to the New York Cen- 
 tral ; all I could give you would be the figures that we 
 deliver. 
 
 Q. You do not know how many through cars of freight 
 you have eastward-bound at this point? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you no general information on the subject ? 
 A. It don't interfere with me, so I don't bother my 
 head with it. 1193 
 
 Q. Do you ever have a break in your arrangements 
 with the Erie Road in regard to delivering them freight ? 
 A. Once in a while we do. 
 
 Q. Sometimes when your relations are not as amica- 
 ble as at this present moment, you do not deliver them 
 any, do you ? 
 
 A. I never saw the time yet when we did not deliver 
 and receive freight from them. 
 
 Q. You have seen the time when you delivered very 
 little and received very little, have you not ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; when I said I did know — sometimes the 
 Erie Road don't want to let their cars go west, and we 
 transfer them ; and sometimes we don't let our cars go 
 east ; we transfer ; that makes more work. 
 
 Q. That adds very largely to the expense of evei-y- 
 thing 'i 
 
 A. Yes, sir, we generally bring them to time, though ; ^^gg 
 wlien they shut off letting their cars go west we fetch 
 them to time in forty-eight hours, as a general thing. 
 
 Q. How many cars can you transfer tliere at present, 
 if necessity called for it, to the Erie Road ? 
 
 A. Well, sir, 1 think the biggest day's work— 
 Q. No, I asked how many you could transfer ? 
 A. That is the only way I could get at it ; the biggest 
 day's work we ever did was about two hundred and 
 twenty-five cars ; we were busy all the time at it. 
 
300 
 
 1196 Q. Then yon think you couldn't transfer through 
 cars bound east ; how many through cars could you de- 
 liver to them at that point with your present facilities ? 
 
 A. I say about two hundred and twenty-five to two 
 hundred and fifty ; that is about all that we could do, 
 and that would keep us on that proposed crossing back- 
 wards and forwards all the time ; with that amount of 
 work, it would keep from one to two switch engines on 
 that crossing the biggest portion of the time. 
 
 1197 Q. Please explain why ? 
 
 A. Those cars arrive here, and some trains will have 
 ten South Shore line cars, other trains will have twenty ; 
 when they are in they are pulled up over the proposed 
 crossing, and the switching done there backwards and 
 forwards; they are thrown down onto some track in the 
 yard ; they may be all thrown onto one track or sepa- 
 rated, as the case may, just as the tracks are clear in the 
 yard ; if they are separated at the first switch, it don't 
 ^^^° require so much afterwards, but they afterwards have to 
 be pulled out of the yard and go over the crossing again ; 
 at least they are inspected there, the crippled cars ai-e 
 marked " crippled " ; we have some marked for the dia- 
 mond track and for the house track, as the case may be, 
 and then they are pulled up again over the proposed 
 crossing, and switched back again wherever the case may 
 be; if they are to go for the Hart, they go there, or for 
 
 the diamond or house, whichever the case may be. 
 1199 
 
 Q. Suppose I send a thousand cars of grain from 
 
 Chicago via the Lake Shore and Erie road — come right 
 along together in trains of fifty cars each — that would 
 be twenty trains of cars, how long would it take to trans- 
 fer those cars to the Erie road ? 
 
 A. Well, if you send them all right along — they 
 don't bring fifty cars on the road. 
 
 Q. Then take forty cars? 
 
 A. Provided there was nothing to bother us, we 
 
D*ly x] 301 
 
 might deliver them in one-half the time or one-fonrth 1200 
 the time, than where there is so much done. 
 
 Q. Couldn't you deliver them in a quarter of a day ? 
 
 A. It couldn't be done. • 
 
 Q. If the Erie could get them all away ? 
 
 A. We couldn't, not on that one track. 
 
 Q. Who is the target man at that point ? 
 
 A. Well, there is a German there, I don't know what 
 his name is ; he is there in the day-time, and I believe a 
 man named Ready at night ; I don't know what the 1201 
 German man's name is, only Fred. 
 
 Q. How long has he been there? 
 
 A. A number of years. 
 
 Q. Where does he stand ? 
 
 A. On the ground. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Greene : This supposed case of the 
 counsel is purely imaginary, is it not, about the thousand 
 cars made up in twenty-five trains, all bound from your 
 road to the Erie ? Did you ever know of such an ^*^^ 
 instance ? 
 
 A. Never. 
 
 Q. They come here mixed, don't they ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Interspersed along at different points in the train, 
 and have to be transferred ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 O. And no such instance has occurred, or is likely to 
 ^ „ 1203 
 
 occur ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Locke : Wouldn't it be possible to 
 arrange our trains at Cleveland or Chicago so that the 
 Erie cars in a train would be more easily reached ? 
 
 A. I think that could not be done. 
 
 By Com. Mc Alpine : Q. Can the Erie dock track be 
 extended southward far enough to give the same amount 
 
302 
 
 1204 of standing-room as now, namely, for twenty-six cars, 
 southward of the proposed Lackawanna crossing ? 
 
 A. I don't think it could without interfering with 
 other track* there. 
 
 Q. It don't show any objection on the map, and if 
 you have any objections, I wish you would mention 
 them? 
 
 A. I haven't been over in there in some time, but it 
 is all filled in with buildings through there. 
 
 1205 Q- Now, on their own grounds ? 
 
 A. It runs into their main track going to the dock ; 
 that is the only objection ; it runs into their main track. 
 
 Q. It now runs into their main track? 
 
 A. It now runs into their main track ; going to the 
 dock. 
 
 Q. Can it be extended on and join that third track 
 that is shown there? 
 
 A. I think not; I wouldn't say positive; but 1, think 
 
 1206 not. 
 
 Q. Will you please tell us any reason that you know 
 against it ? 
 
 A. Well, I think that place is all filled up with build- 
 ings close to the track. 
 
 Q. Buildings on the company's grounds ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; well, I am not familiar with their tracks 
 over there ; I have been over there several times, but I 
 cannot bring them to my mind just at present, how their 
 tracks do lay over tliere, in their new yards, as they call 
 them. 
 
 By Mr. Greene : Q. The principal close work, so 
 to call it, that you have in the transfer of through 
 freight, is with the Central, is it not ; the principal 
 amount of transfer that you have. Your business of 
 transferring through freight to the Central decidedly ex- 
 ceeds that to the Erie, does it not ? 
 
Daly x] 303 
 
 A. Oh, yes; I should judge from the number of cars 1208 
 passing it would be about two-thirds. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. Where is that switching done? 
 
 A. Well, the Central cars and the Erie Railway cars 
 for the Central road, and the Erie road, come in all in 
 one train, and they are switched backwards and forwards 
 over this proposed crossing, as the case may be ; the 
 number of cars in the train, etc. 
 
 By counsel, resuming: Q. That is, two-thirds of the 
 train would be upon the Central, and mixed up with it 1209 
 would be cars for the Erie ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where do you transfer those ? 
 
 A. Well, cars on what is called the Compromise go 
 through to East Buffalo. 
 
 Q. At a point above, north of this, but tliey come 
 in indiscriminately, through cars destined for the Erie 
 and for the Central, mixed up indiscriminately in the 
 train? • 1^10 
 
 A. Yes, sir; Buffalo freight and all. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. By sorting out you mean you 
 sort out the business for the Erie road at this point ? 
 
 A. The business for the Erie road and Buffalo town 
 business, and Buffalo .Creek " Y" all have to be sorted. 
 
 Q. It is sorted here, and you take out the cars here 
 at the point of the proposed crossing ; you would sort out 
 from the trains here the cars going to the Central as 
 well as those going to the Erie ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; if they were mixed in the train. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. Running the Central cars 
 down upon certain tracks in the yard, then running up, 
 and running down again, and leaving certain Erie cars, 
 then up again and leaving the Central cars, that is the 
 manner in which it is done ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Are there any trains on the 
 
304 
 
 ]3r.i Lake Shore road of through freight, through east-bound 
 freight to pass directly to the Central transfer station 
 without going into this yard for assortment? 
 
 A. There are stock trains at times, and there may be 
 other trains, but not being the yard-master, I cannot tell 
 you that ; there maj' be some. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. Two-thirds of the through 
 freight that goes to the Central, that you refer to, does 
 that pass this Lackawanna crossing ? 
 1213 A. Yes, sir; I mean about two-thirds of the ears pass- 
 ing that crossing are destined for the New York Cen- 
 tral. 
 
 Q. This is the main line, and all the cars have to 
 pass this crossing to communicate with Cleveland and 
 the west. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Do any trains pass through 
 to the Central transfer without going into this yard, and 
 remaining there for transfer ? 
 
 A. There is some, but how many I can't say. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. Is it a small, or a consider- 
 able portion ? 
 
 A. It is a small portion, as far as I know. 
 
 Q. How do they get to the Central ? 
 
 A. They run down on some of those tracks here. 
 
 Q. Run down into this yard ? 
 jq.g A. Into the yard, yes, sir; but he asked me the ques- 
 tion whether they are assorted or not ; they run into the 
 yard, and stand there, and are pushed over the hill ; a 
 few trains ; I don't know how many it would be. 
 
 By Cora. Clark: Q. All eastern-bound freight trains 
 over your road go into this yard ? 
 
 A. All eastern-bound freight has got to go into that 
 yard, and all western-bound freight has got to go 
 through it. 
 
Daly x] 305 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. Is not one-tenth of your tonnage 1216 
 live stock ? 
 
 A. Which tonnage do yoa mean ? 
 
 Q. Is not one-tenth of your tonnage live stock ? 
 
 A. I don't know, I couldn't ansvv'er that, because I 
 haven't anything to do with live stock. 
 
 Q. Do you deliver any live stock to the Erie road ? 
 
 A. That is all done at East Buffalo, unless it would 
 be a car of horses, or something of the kind. 
 
 Q. Do you deliver any petroleum to the Erie road ? 1217 
 
 A. We do, tank cars. 
 
 Q. Do you delfver coaT? 
 
 A. We do. . 
 
 Q. What proportion of your coal that comes to Buf- 
 falo do you deliver to the Central? 
 
 A. I couldn't tell you, I haven't any idea. 
 
 Q. It is nineteen-twentieths, is it not ? 
 
 A. I don't know anything about it, I never saw any 
 of their figures there. 
 
 Q. Your coal cars come in coal trains, do they not, 
 as a general thing ? 
 
 A. We have no regular coal trains on the road. 
 
 Q. Have you regular stock trains ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And all your stock trains goes to East Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You dehvered bituminous coal to the Erie Rail- 
 
 way here ? 
 
 A. Soft coal, yes, we do some. 
 
 Q. To any considerable extent? 
 
 A. Not very large. 
 
 Q. Do you deliver any considerable amount of 
 petroleum? 
 
 A. At times we do; it is like everything else, it gets 
 to running at times. 
 
306 
 
 1330 Q. As a general thing your petroleum goes to the 
 New York Central ? 
 
 A. Not all ; in June, I think we gave two hiindred 
 and seventeen cars to the Erie, I think it was that, or 
 something like that. 
 
 By Mr. Greene : Q. State whether or not it is very 
 seldom that a train arrives from the west, a freight 
 train, that is composed entirely of cars destined for the 
 Central, or whether it is not almost the universal rule 
 
 1331 that cars destined for the Central and Erie are mixed in 
 the train ? 
 
 A. From what I can see and observe by sitting there 
 around the upper end of the yard, at this crossing there, 
 there is very few trains, very few that comes that is 
 made up of a full train for the New York Central; 
 there is more or less of change on all trains. 
 
 Q. Do most trains, a very large proportion, and nearly 
 all the trains that arrive from the west with freight, 
 " contain cars that are to be distributed to these various 
 points, to the town, that is Buffalo, the South Shore, the 
 Buffalo Creek Railroad, the transfer-house, the place 
 where ice is put in the cars, to the company's coal, the 
 New York and Philadelphia Railway, the Central Rail- 
 way, the stock-yards at East Buffalo, the rolling-mill, 
 and to weigh, to those different points ? 
 
 A. In answer to that question I would say that there 
 1323 ^^ ^^^^ ^'^^ trains, except the live stock trains, but what 
 has freight for some of those points yon mention. 
 
 Q. More or lees of them ? 
 
 A. More or less of them. 
 
 Q. Averaging half of them, or thereabouts ? 
 
 A. No, I won't say half. 
 
 Q. Well, several of them ? 
 
 A. Several of them. 
 
 Q. Trains usually contain ears destined for several, 
 fit least, of those different points ? 
 
Taylor.J 307 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 1334 
 
 Q. How many divisions have to be made in the 
 trains on the average for the year ? 
 
 A. I could not hardly answer that question, because 
 there is a good deal of that work done that I do not see ; 
 my business is in the house and out of the house, and in 
 general all around in that vicinity, and what 1 would 
 see would be just from observation, as you would your- 
 self going by ; it don't interfere with my business at all. 
 
 1225 
 
 KiCHARD G. Taylor, sworn for the petitioners, and 
 examined by Mr. Milburn, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. What position do you occupy now 'I 
 
 A. Superintendent of the Buffalo division of the 
 New York, Lake Erie and Western Road. 
 
 Q. The duties of that position involves your having 
 charge of the railway in that division ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^^^^ 
 
 Q. How many miles of railroad of the Erie Railway 
 are under your charge ? 
 
 A. About three hundred miles. 
 
 Q. How long have you been connected with the rail- 
 way business ? 
 
 A. About thirty years ? 
 
 Q. You began as what ? 
 
 A. I began as messenger boy. 
 
 Q. And you have passed through the various stages 1337 
 to be superintendent of the Erie at this point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. During the whole of that time your duties have 
 been connected with either the Erie Railway or other 
 railways? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The locality in question here is part of the rail- 
 road under your charge so far as the Erie tracks are 
 concerned ? 
 
308 
 
 1238 A. The crossing of the Lake Shore ? 
 
 Q. The crossing of the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Your headquarters are at Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you not well acquainted with the locality of 
 this transfer business between the Lake Shore and the 
 Erie, and the method of doing business there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I am perfectly familiar with it. 
 1329 Q. Do you also know the point of the proposed cross- 
 ing of the Lackawanna road? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You are also aware that the crossing that the 
 Lackawanna people propose there, is a grade crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I have heard that that was the proposi- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. Will you state to us, in your own way, what ob- 
 jections occur to you to a grade crossing at that point, 
 in reference to the business of the Erie and Lake Siiore 
 Railways ? 
 
 A. The great danger is in the liability to accidents, 
 and the delay to the business generally. 
 
 Q. From your knowledge of the business transacted 
 
 at that point, what would be your opinion more at 
 
 length as to the practicability of carrying it on with a 
 
 grade crossing by the Lackawanna just as proposed by 
 
 ,„,,, it, the interference with your business, and what that 
 1331 ' , , . „ 
 
 would result in 5 
 
 A. The interference would result in great delays and 
 inconvenience in doing the business there. 
 
 Q. Would you regard it as a serious question as to 
 whether that transfer business could be carried on ? 
 
 A. It would be, sir, a very serious question, with the 
 amount of switching they have got to do over those 
 crossings to get to the transfer-houses, also getting over 
 and delivering to the Lake Shore. 
 
Taylor.] 309 
 
 Q. Can the dock track be extended southerly far 1233 
 enough to give the same amount of standing-room as 
 now, twenty-six cars, southward of the proposed Lacka- 
 wanna crossing? 
 
 A. That would be to extend this track down this way. 
 
 Q. Yes? 
 
 A. In doing that we would have to lose the use — we 
 would have to run down here with the freight and cross- 
 over and shove the freight back in, and in doing that we 
 would lose the use of one track there, which would be a l!i33 
 pretty serious thing for us. 
 
 Q. Let me get that a little more fully ; this third 
 track of the Erie, southwesterly of the proposed crossing, 
 is what sort of a track ? 
 
 A. It is a store track that we take the freight over, 
 and stand it on that until we are able to move it ahead 
 into the freight house. 
 
 Q. The two tracks above that are your main tracks ? 
 
 ■XT • 1*34: 
 
 A. xes, sir. 
 
 Q. The dock track, as it is now, runs into your main 
 track at the point indicated on this map ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If the dock track were continued, as suggested in 
 the question, you would have to run it into the side or 
 store track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; then we would have to run down fur- 
 ther to near the point of Louisiana street, and cross over ^^^^ 
 to get into that track, losing the use of that siding all 
 the way through there. 
 
 Q. That is, if you did that you would destroy the use 
 of the side track for storing purposes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And trains that were run into it from the dock 
 track would then have to be carried southerly, or a con- 
 siderable distance on that side track, and then be switched 
 into the main track? 
 
310 
 
 1236 A. Yes, sir ; if we are coming over here from tha 
 east with a train, we use that track to do it on, and fol- 
 low down and pass in on this siding, letting the engine 
 stand here, and she comes around and gets on this track, 
 and then these cars are distributed on that track ; if we 
 extended this dock track down here, and ran down into 
 that we would lose the use of that track for the purposes 
 for which we are using it now; in other words that 
 would have to be kept open in order to get in there. 
 
 123 ** Q. By Com. McAlpine : That is not precisely the 
 question ; it is, can this track be extended far enough 
 south here, and unite substantially with that track, or 
 any other means to hold twenty-six cars southward from 
 the Lackawanna crossing ? 
 
 A. I say it can be done by running down and con- 
 necting with that track ; we would not want to connect 
 those two main tracks with it, for there would not be 
 
 room to go in without interfering here ; in order to make 
 
 1238 
 
 that available we have got to go down below and put in 
 
 those cross-overs ; you have got to take up the room here 
 
 for your leads and cross-overs, which would run it down 
 
 considerably below this. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. As I understand it, 
 
 taking the .'situation as it is, and the necessities of your 
 
 present business, in your opinion it is not pi-acticable to 
 
 extend that dock-track so as to give room for twenty -six 
 
 1 2'?q ^'^^^ south of this proposed crossing 7 
 
 A. No, sir, I don't see how we could really spare the 
 room to do it with ; we have got that track so arranged 
 that we take what we call a string of freight and just 
 hold it, what we would pull from east Buffalo, getting in 
 there and getting back again, and it would spoil our 
 whole arrangement there by changing. 
 
 Q. This point at the present time is very much occu- 
 pied, is it not, in the distribution and assortment and 
 making up of trains at the present time? 
 
Taylor.] 311 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I presume there is a train over that cross- 1240 
 .ing on an average every ten minutes. 
 
 Q. Which crossing ? * 
 
 A. Over this crossing of the Lake Shore and Erie, 
 it will probably average a train there every ten minutes ; 
 we wait now there sometimes from ten to thirty-five 
 minutes, waiting to get the crossing so that we can get 
 across. 
 
 Q. Just state more about the delays that you have at 
 the present time from the crossings that you have, just 1241 
 as they are now, and make a full statement as you can ? 
 
 A. I made it about as full as I could make it. 
 
 Q. Do you delay the Lake Shore trains? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And at times how much ? 
 
 A. From fifteen to thirty-five minutes. 
 
 Q. During such a delay, this process of switching at 
 
 this point is suspended ? 
 
 1 242 
 A. Yes, sir, the Lake Shore trains passing there, 
 
 their switching is stopped, and ours is stopped. 
 
 Q. In your busy times, Mr. Taylor, what is the effect 
 more generally of these delays upon your business and 
 the Lake Shore business, if you know it, in reference to 
 thei'e being blocks in the business here, and accumula- 
 tions ? 
 
 A. The more business we are doing, the more trains 
 we are having over there, the more delays we have, of ^^^g 
 course. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact, that in busy times now, with the 
 delays that there are at that crossing, there are serious 
 blocks and accumulations in the business at Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is this one of the points to which you attribute a 
 good deal of importance in these blocks that do occur? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it is a very important point ; we have 
 probably more complaints on the Lake Shore road, and 
 
312 
 
 1244 the Lake Shore road from ns in regard to that crossing, 
 than any other crossing we have, on account of more 
 business. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Complaints from delays? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, we get to the crossing, for instance, and 
 something will occur to stop us twenty or thirty minutes, 
 and the Lake Shore road have a train waiting to go over, 
 and that is reported to the superintendent, and the super- 
 intendent comes to me for it ; we have them back and 
 1345 forth every day or two. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. These same complaints 
 would occur if your company owned both roads? 
 
 A. It would be probably the same thing if we had 
 them both. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. Take it in your busy 
 times when you are seriously obstructed here, what accu- 
 mulation of cars will you get in the city of Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Cars standing in the yard ? 
 1246 . 
 
 Q. Yes, waiting to go off? 
 
 A. You mean the whole business ? - 
 
 Q. Yes? 
 
 A. Oh, I should say the largest number of cars we 
 have had here at one time is from three to four thousand 
 in the city. 
 
 Q. Have you known, at the same time, that the Lake 
 Shore was also blocked up with cars? 
 2247 A. I have known that they have been blocked up 
 with cars waiting to deliver to us ; at one time that they 
 have had as many as seven or eight hundred cars wait- 
 ing to deliver to us. 
 
 Q. What was the reason that they were not delivered 
 to you, any particular reason of delays at this crossing ? 
 
 A. I could not say that it was on account of the cross- 
 ing, but it was general blockade of business, you know. 
 
 Q. In this blockade of business that occurs the delays 
 
Taylor.] 313 
 
 at this crossing, are they not, a serious and constant 1248 
 element ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they are a very serious cause of delay. 
 
 Q. What would be the effect upon that condition of 
 things to have another railroad crossing there in such a 
 way that when one road is using a crossing tiie business 
 of both of the other roads is entirely suspended at that 
 time ? 
 
 A. It could not be otherwise if the Lackawanna was 
 passing a train over that crossing, the other two roads 1349 
 would have to wait until they got by, if we were passing 
 a train over both roads would have to wait for us, and 
 the same way with us. 
 
 Q. Can you give us any details about accidents, Mr. 
 Taylor ? 
 
 A. Accidents on grade-crossings ? 
 
 Q. Yes, at such a place as that, or at other places 
 that you linow within your experience ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; on the Buffalo Creek crossi ng of the ^^^*^ 
 Lake Shore road we have had in the last three years two 
 accidents. 
 
 Q. Passenger or freight trains ? 
 
 A. One of them was a passenger train. 
 
 Q. Accidents due to what ? 
 
 A. Due to misunderstanding by men taking signals 
 from targets. On the crossing of the Buffalo, New York 
 and Philadelphia since I liave been liere in the last nine 
 years we have had four, two of them very serious 
 accidents. 
 
 Q. Freight or passenger trains ? 
 
 A. Two of them were freight and two passengers. 
 One of those accidents I think cost the Buffalo, New York 
 and Philadelphia and Erie together about twenty-three 
 thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. What more? 
 
314 
 
 1352 A. On the Lockport crossing of the New York Cen- 
 tral. We have had an accident at Tonawanda. 
 
 Q. When was that ? 
 
 A. It was within three years, I conld not recollect the 
 date exactly. 
 
 Q. Was that passenger or freight ? 
 
 A. It was freight, on the Lewiston crossing at Sus- 
 pension Bridge ; we have had two. 
 
 Q. Within what time? 
 
 1353 A. In the last five years. 
 
 Q. Were those passenger or freight? 
 
 A. That was freight. At Batavia we have had two 
 in the last six years. 
 
 Q. What crossing is that of the Erie and Central ? 
 
 A. In the village of Batavia, of the Erie and Central. 
 One of those was freight and the other was passenger. 
 We have had three there, two passenger and one freight 
 in the last six years. 
 1254 Q. Any more? 
 
 A. That is all that I call to mind now. We have 
 had small accidents, but those are matters that are prin- 
 cipally in my mind as being pretty serious things. 
 
 Q. In those where there were accidents to passenger 
 trains, did they result in injuries ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we have had two on the Buffalo, New 
 
 York and Philadelphia, which resulted in injuries. 
 
 Q. Iniuries to passengers ? 
 1355 7 ^/ . ^ " 
 
 A. les, sir. 
 
 Q. Are there frequent injuries to train-men and em- 
 ployes at those crossings? 
 
 A. Well, I cannot say that there is anything outside 
 of these cases that I have mentioned. Train-men usually 
 get off a little better than passengers do. 
 
 Q. Now, you say that in addition to these, small 
 accidents have occurred from time to time ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Taylor.J 315 
 
 Q. What have been the nature of those? 1356 
 
 A. Oh, they get too close to a crossing and the cars 
 would strike each other and break a car or throw it off 
 the track, or something of that kind. 
 
 Q. Is that quite a common occurrence ? 
 
 A. Well, 1 won't say it is common, but probably in 
 the last two years, take it on the New York Central, 
 and the Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia crossings 
 of our road we have had, I will say, half a dozen of such 
 accidents. 1^''''^ 
 
 Q. Resulting in injury to rolling-stock and freight ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there is another case that we had occur 
 on the Lake Shore compromise crossing where one of 
 our engines took steam and got away and ran into a train 
 and stove it to pieces. 
 
 Q. When was that ? 
 
 A. That was about fonr years ago, I should say. 
 
 Q. Now at points on your road, 1 call to mind one, 
 where tracks converge into one track, is the use of that 
 one track regulated by the target just as the crossing is 
 here, or a signal ? 
 
 A. I don't know that I understand you. 
 
 Q. Where two different railroads form a union and 
 run onto one system of tracks is the use at the point of 
 junction regulated by signals or targets just as a cross- 
 ing is? 
 
 A. By a target. 1359 
 
 Q. At such a point as that have you had accidents ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you tell us about those ? 
 
 A. At East Buffalo we have a junction with our Falls 
 branch, and we have had within the last five years there 
 probably two or three just such accidents as that where 
 trains come together. 
 
 Q. Passenger or freight ? 
 
 A. Those were freight, at the junction of our Inter- 
 
316 
 
 1260 national branch, near Main street ; we had c^uitc a serious 
 accident there within six months, mistaken signals, and 
 the freight train ran into the side of the passenger train 
 and tipped the passenger train over. 
 
 Q. And sev-eral passengers there were injured? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Any more that yon call to mind ? 
 
 A. No, I don't recollect any more now. 
 
 Q. These accidents occurred under care on your own 
 
 1261 part, both in imposing regulations, and in the selection 
 of yonr employees ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They occurred notwithstanding those ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon can tell us, perhaps, the general fact that 
 rolling stock, engines and cars, passing over-crossing 
 frogs, the wear and tear is greater, is it not, than pass- 
 ing over the ordinary track ? 
 
 1262 
 
 A. Oh, it certainly is greater on account of the 
 
 wheel striking the frog ; it naturally would be worse 
 
 on rolling stock than it would be to roll over a rail. 
 
 Q. You know the location of the Lackawanna road 
 in the city of Buffalo, and with your knowledge of the 
 city could you tell us what this line would be available 
 for, of theirs? 'It is the Ohio street line into the city? 
 
 A. They could make it available for anj'thing. 
 126^ Q. Particularly, 1 mean, their passenger business? 
 
 A. 1 should not think they would go that way if they 
 were going in with passengers, that it was designed 
 more especially for freight. 
 
 Presents map to witness marked " Exhibit 4." 
 
 Q. If they were going to do a passenger business in 
 the city of Buffalo it must be over that line, must it not? 
 
 A. I don't know anything about that line. 
 
 Q. If they were going to do a passenger business in 
 
Taylor.] 317 
 
 the city of Biiftalo, must not this line be their passenger 1361 
 line? 
 
 A. I should say, yes, this is the first time that I have 
 ever seen any map of this kind. I had an idea they 
 were coming across here somewhere. 
 
 Q. This map, " Exhibit 4," has upon it in red the pro- 
 jected lines of the Lackawanna road as disclosed by their 
 map upon file, and taking that map this line in question 
 is the only one point which they could do the passenger 
 business into the city of Buffalo? 1365 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I should say so. 
 
 Q. That will also be the line of their city freight, 
 wouldn't it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the only one they would have for it. 
 
 Q. And of their coal business; is that not so? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, the Lackawanna people have pretty large 
 coal trestles down near the terminus of that line, have 
 they not? ^^^^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they come from a coal region ? 
 
 A. The Lackawanna road ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There is a large coal business now in the city 
 of Buffalo, is there not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^^^^ 
 
 Q. Can you, from anything that, you can observe 
 about the location of business, etc., with all the knowl- 
 edge you have, see the necessity of the two lines, "A" 
 and " B " ? 
 
 A. No; that' is what I was studying ; 1 can't under- 
 stand it; I don't see why they want it. If they want a 
 double track coming around here, I don't see what they 
 want of that line there. 
 
318 
 
 1268 Q. That is, t\\ey have line " B " ; you don't see why 
 they want line " A " ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And with the knowledge that you have, with line 
 " B " you would see no necessity at all of line " A " ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The Erie Railway Company, as we call it here, 
 is laying a double track, an additional track at this 
 point at the present time, is it not? 
 1369 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us when the laying of that track 
 was ordered, or was agreed upon? 
 
 A. I agreed with Mr. Clark, of the Lake Shore 
 road, I think, just about a year ago, it may have 
 been a month later, and we went on the ground and 
 arranged for him to shove back his tracks, and for 
 our crossing to go in, just about a year ago. It is 
 conceded that the first and only map of the Lacka- 
 ' wanna, of its route in Erie county, was filed in the 
 Erie County Clerk's office on the 19th day of May, 
 1881. 
 
 Q. Was there any agreement between you and 
 Mr. Clark as to changing the platform and trusses ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then by the arrangements that you made for 
 this double track, you would lose the use of the plat- 
 ,„^, form on this part of the map here colored pink, and 
 marked " N. Y., L. E. & W. R. R. Co."? 
 
 A. I don't recollect just how many feet, but I think 
 in the neighborhood of a hundred or a hundred and fifty 
 feet. 
 
 Q. By this arrangement with Mr. Clark you lose that 
 part of the platform, or the use of it from " A " to " B " ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Taylor.], 319 
 
 Q. Now, how were you to recover for that part of i272 
 the platform that you use — what were you to do ? 
 
 A. You would have to put more business through 
 this house, that is all ; we would lose that. 
 
 Q. What I want to get at is, was there any agree- 
 ment as to the extension of this platform in this direc- 
 tion ? 
 
 A. I don't recollect whether there was or not. 
 
 Q. Now, Mr. Taylor, what has been the reason of the 
 delay in not getting it put in there — not getting the l^'i'S 
 double track put in there ? 
 
 A. Well, it was to have been completed last fall, but 
 if you remember what an early fall we had, and how 
 everything froze up on us, you will know pretty near 
 why we didn't do it last fall, and this year we have been 
 so busy with so much construction that we have not got 
 at it ; the crossing for those have been made last fall. 
 
 Q. The crossing frogs were made last fall for the 
 additional crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, we had our winter commence here, you 
 know, about the middle of October, and Mr. Clark had 
 commenced to lill up here on his tracks and suspended 
 that on account of the weather. 
 
 Q. What part of this was deranged to fill np ? 
 
 A. Well, you see that track — 
 
 Q. Call it Hart track ? 
 
 A. That stands on trestle work ; it stands up high 
 for the purpose of transferring grain and coal, and such 
 things as that to what we call the low grain track ; the 
 plan was by Mr. Clark to go to work and fill this up 
 through here, and bring that low grain track up to grade 
 with the Hart track ; that is also a high track ; that 
 would put all of those tracks on the same grade. 
 
 Q. That would put the Diamond and low grain and 
 Hart track on the same level ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
320 
 
 1376 Q. What was there about this culvert — was it made 
 necessary, tlie extension of that culvert ? 
 
 A. There has always been an open water-way there. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if the culvert for the embankment 
 of the double track which has recently been put in, if it 
 was extended last fall ? 
 
 A. I think it was, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On his part of the arrangements then — you say 
 Mr. Clark had been working last fall ? 
 1277 A. I think he commenced to fill up those tracks last 
 fall, and suspended on account of the weather. 
 
 Q. What is being done now in pusuance of that 
 arrangement with Mr. Clark ? 
 
 A. The same as we agreed upon last summer. 
 
 Q. How is the business of the Erie at this point just 
 now, Mr. Taylor, running light or heavy ? 
 
 A. Just now we are light. 
 
 Q. For how long past have you been running light? 
 
 A. For the last ten days ; the rates are considerably 
 demoralized now. 
 
 Q. Through the rates being demoralized ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has that taken off a large part of your business? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Through the grain coming through all rail ? 
 
 A. Through the grain coming through all rail, and 
 , givQ there is a good deal of moving by canal. 
 
 Q. Your grain trade is what you get fi-om your own 
 elevator? 
 
 A. Well, we get from the Niagara Elevator ; we get 
 about as much from the Niagara Elevator as we do from 
 our own. 
 
 Q. All that part of the business is running very light 
 just now? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; in the month of June we handled a 
 very little over two million bushels from our own ele- 
 
Taylor x] 321 
 
 vator and the Niagara ; this month we won't probably 1280 
 handle over a million. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Did you ask the Lake Shore permission to put in 
 that new crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was anything said about an over-crossing, putting 
 in an over-crossing there ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 1281 
 
 Q. Did they not ask it ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The subject was not mooted at all ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do two crossings or a double-track crossing at 
 that place facilitate your business? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then a double-track crossing of the Lackawanna 
 would be more desirable than a single crossing, wouldn't ^^°* 
 it? 
 
 A. I don't think a double-track crossing would be 
 any objection. 
 
 Q. Any more than a single ? 
 
 A. No, sir, only the wear and tear of the machinery 
 and cars; I don't think the delays would be any greater. 
 
 Q. Would it lessen the delays? 
 
 A. I think it would, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that it would be more desirable in fact than a 
 single one ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think it would. 
 
 Q. You were speaking of accidents at grade-cross- 
 ings ; I don't suppose you can operate a railroad with- 
 out encountering accidents, can you ? 
 
 A. I don't suppose that there is any such thing, 
 
 Q. Without going to expense which is impracticable, 
 yon could have Miller couplers and buffers on your 
 
322 
 
 1384 freight cars, could you not ? they could be adjusted to 
 freight cars, couldn't they ? 
 A. Yes, they could be. 
 
 Q. I see that in 1878 you reported eighty-six persons 
 injured from one cause and another on the Erie rail- 
 road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From one end of it to the other ; and that twenty- 
 five per cent, of those injuries were sustained by brakemen 
 1285 coupling cars; did you ever contemplate the feasibility 
 of putting in self-couplers on your freight cars ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is a subject that has been considered 
 very carefully. 
 
 Q. Why didn't you do it ? 
 
 A. Well, i will tell you the reason ; you take a train 
 of forty cars on our railroad, and it would probably be 
 composed of stock from twenty-five different roads, and in 
 order to make a thing of that kind feasible you have got 
 " to have all the roads in the country adopt it, and it 
 would be pretty hard to do that. 
 
 Q. If other railroads should adopt it, would you think 
 it was desirable ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So you do not set that example ? 
 A. Well, we could not set the example ; for instance, 
 the Lake Shore road ; if we should go to work and 
 make our cars so that they could not couple on them, 
 what could we do ? 
 
 Q. You can couple an ordinary car with a Miller 
 coupler ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, but you are increasing the danger of ac- 
 cidents. 
 
 Q. By doing it? 
 A. By doing it ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have a grade-crossing of your main line into 
 town with the Central Line, have you not ? 
 
Taylor x] 323 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 1388 
 
 Q. You also cross the transfer tracks between the 
 Lake Shore and East BuflFalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many trains run into your Erie depot here 
 in a day ? 
 
 A. We have about forty-eight passenger trains I 
 think coming in. 
 
 Q. How many run out ? 
 
 A. The same number. 1389 
 
 Q. So there are ninety-six trains passing that point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Milburn : Forty-eight in one day ? 
 
 A. Taking all the branches, the Great Western and 
 Grand Trunk. 
 
 Mr. Locke, resuming : How many run over the Cen- 
 tral ? 
 
 A. Not this crossing, you understand. 
 
 ■ 1390 
 
 Q. I mean the grade-crossings of the main lines. 
 
 Q. How many run out of the Central depot from 
 that crossing in a day ? 
 
 A. I don't know ; they haven't as many, because 
 they use their route-line around the city. 
 
 Q. They have thirty or forty each way ? 
 
 A. I should say not quite as many as that. 
 
 Q. Twenty-five ? 
 
 A. I couldn't tell you. ^^gi 
 
 Q. All their through east-bound freight, and all their 
 through west-bound freight passes over these transfer 
 tracks, doesn't it, which goes by the Lake Shore and 
 New York Central ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is a very large tonnage, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, How many accidents have you had on your pas- 
 
324 
 
 1392 senger line iuto town from collision, at the points of 
 crossing, in the last five years ? 
 
 A. I couldn't just exactly tell you the number; 1 
 have mentioned the ones of the most important. 
 
 Q. I mean with the New York Central ; you did not 
 mention an}' ? 
 
 A. At the New York Central crossing ? 
 
 Q. Yes. 
 
 A. We have had one accident with the New York 
 1293 Central on the New York Central crossing, by which we 
 tipped over an engine and a coach for them ; I think 
 that was about a year ago, and we have had minor acci- 
 dents to freight trains ; in one case, I think two years 
 ago last winter — 
 
 Q. At the intersection of your passenger tracks ? 
 
 A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there a freight train hurt there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 1294 
 
 Q. Do your freight-trains run in over that track, too ? 
 
 A. Well, our freight-house is located near the cross- 
 ing there. 
 
 Q. So that all your city freight goes out over that 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. All our city freight goes out over that crossing. 
 
 Q. How many cars does that average '! 
 
 A. Well, we probably handle seventy-five to a huii- 
 1295 '^'"®^ ^^^^ each way per day. 
 
 Q. Besides all the passenger cars ? 
 
 A. Besides all the passenger cars. 
 
 Q. I suppose you have contemplated putting in an 
 over-crossing there, have you not ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have not? 
 
 A. No, sir ; at least I have not ; I haven't heard of 
 anything of that kind. 
 
 Q. You cross all the streets in town except one, at 
 
Taylor x] 325 
 
 grade, don't you ; all the streets in the city you cross at 1296 
 grade except one ; all that you do cross I mean ? 
 
 A. I don't know that we have any over-crossings on 
 the streets. 
 
 Q. I thought you had one at the trestle on the Falls 
 road? 
 
 A. Is there a street under that trestle ? 
 
 Q. I thought there was ? 
 
 A. It is new if there is. 
 
 Q. I thought you crossed William street? 1397 
 
 A. No, we end at the foot of Batavia street— start at 
 William and end at Batavia. 
 
 Q. You have a good many accidents at street cross- 
 ings, do you not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have a good many at highway crossings along 
 up and down your road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The majority of accidents on your road that are "^^^^ 
 matters of accidents, are at highway crossings or at street 
 crossings, or from injuries received by your brakemen in 
 handling the cars, are they not ? 
 
 A. I should say that the majority of our accidents 
 were to employees in coupling and such things as that. 
 
 A. Now, the quantum of accidents chargeable to 
 grade-crossings, therefore, is vei-y small, is it not, on the 
 average ? 
 
 A. Well, I don't know, Mr. Locke. 
 
 Q. You were sworn, were you not, on the application 
 of the Erie, International road to cross the New York 
 Central track at Black Rock 'i 
 A. No, I didn't get into that. 
 
 Q. You were sworn on the case at the Falls then, at 
 the Suspension Bridge case, were you not ? 
 
 A. I don't remember, I have been in so many of 
 those cases. 
 
326 
 
 1300 Q. Did you not swear in substance that in your judg- 
 ment a grade-crossing was perfectly practicable? 
 
 A. It is practicable in a case of that kind. 
 
 Q. And could be operated without any serious ele- 
 ment of danger? 
 
 A. I don't remember of testifying to anything of the 
 kind. 
 
 Q. What did you testify in regard to that point, in 
 regard to the attempt of the Lockport road to cross the 
 
 1301 New York Central ? 
 
 A. I couldn't say. 
 
 Q. Didn't all the New York Central men come up 
 and swear that it would ruin a road to have a grade- 
 crossing, and it was so dangerous and so liable to 
 accident ? 
 
 A. I don't know whether I testified there or not. 
 
 Mr. McMillan : Q. There was no testimony taken in 
 that proceeding at all. 
 
 Q. Now, you are interested in the Buffalo Creek road 
 to some extent? 
 
 A. I am superintendent of the Buffalo Creek 
 railroad. 
 
 Q. You have a grade-crossing there of the main line 
 of the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are there a great many accidents there ? 
 j„.„ A. Yes, we have had two there within a year. 
 
 Q. Serious ones? 
 
 A. One was serious, we ran into a Wagner drawiug- 
 room car with a freight train, and the frei^htjtrain broke 
 in two. 
 
 Q. Have you ever contemplated making that an over- 
 head crossing ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why don't you make that an over-head crossing ? 
 
 A. I have not got the say about it. 
 
Taylor x ] 327 
 
 Q. You are general superintendent of the Buffalo and 1304 
 Southwestern now ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That is not in your division ? 
 A. No, sir. * 
 
 Q. Have you ever been down on the Manhattan 
 Beach road ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; oh, yes, I have been on the Manhattan 
 Beach road. 
 
 Q. Down to Coney Island? 1305 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That does a pretty large passenger business, don't 
 it, at seasons of the year ? 
 
 A. 1 don't know that I ever rode over the road, I 
 have been down to Coney Island. 
 
 Q. You know that the road carries as many passen- 
 gers as any road in the country, don't you ? 
 
 A. I should judge it did, but I don't know it for a 
 fact. 1306 
 
 Q. It runs loaded trains every twenty minutes in the 
 season, don't it ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many grade-crossings that road 
 has? 
 
 A. I do not. 
 
 Q. You have had three or four thousand cars, you 
 say, blocked in Buffalo ; I suppose that is snow 
 blockade ? 
 
 A. Snow and business both. 
 Q. That is this last winter ? 
 
 A. Oh, I don't speak of last winter particularly ; but 
 we have had freight blockaded here. 
 
 Q. That takes in all your immense yard in this city ? 
 A. We have sixty miles of siding in our yard in this 
 city. 
 
328 
 
 1308 Q. You do not shovel the snow out so that you can 
 get your cars, and you get blocked up ? 
 
 A. There are times we cannot dispose of our coal, 
 and there are times when we cannot dispose of our 
 grain. ' 
 
 Q. Supposing that your simple object at this point 
 was to get storage-room foi- twenty-six cars, is there any 
 trouble, in getting storage-room for twenty-six cars on a 
 track laying on your right of way 1 
 
 1309 A. It has got to connect. 
 
 Q. You could get a track in jthere that would stand 
 twenty-six cars without ? 
 
 A. We come down here on the west-bound track and 
 we have got to disconnect all those things there and move 
 them up and start in here, or else run this track down 
 below, and commence in here and come over the cross- 
 over, losing the use of that siding there. 
 
 Q. For a certain distance ? 
 
 A. For a certain distance. 
 
 Q. There is no impossibility in shifting tracks ? 
 
 A. We take a train of forty cars for East Buft'alo and 
 pull over here and run into that track with it, that holds 
 just about the train, now if you go to work and shorten 
 up that track, we are going to reduce our train service 
 very materially. 
 
 Q. You could take a run across and connect with the 
 „^ next track? 
 
 A. You would still spoil the use of the track. 
 
 Q. If the cars happen to be standing there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For the simple purposes of storage you could 
 make a stub track there tliat would answer ? 
 
 A. No, sir, you don't get my idea. 
 
 Q. Yes I do. 
 
 A. We pull down a freight train from East Buifalo, 
 
Taylor x] 329 
 
 and pull it in on that, and let the engine go out at the 1312 
 other end. 
 
 He-direct examination, by Mr. Milburn : 
 
 Q. With these accumulations of business that occur 
 and all the freight and railroad business that is transacted 
 in the city of Buffalo, it is very important, is it not, with 
 your existing road, to obviate any other serious cause of 
 obstruction ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^^^^ 
 
 Q. Such as this grade-crossing would be ? 
 
 A. That is one object Mr. Clark and I had in getting 
 together, was to relieve the pressure on those crossings, 
 they felt it as much as we did, and we arranged this 
 meeting in order to get additional facilities for getting 
 through there. 
 
 Q. It would relieve the pressure at that point? 
 
 A. It would relieve the pressure at that point. 
 
 Q. Of this proposed Laciiawanna crossing ? ^3^^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 lie-cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Do you deliver any freight here at the Interna- 
 tional bridge? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. About what proportion of your west-bound freight 
 goes by the International Bridge, that is, that leaves Hor- 
 nellsville ? 
 
 A. Of our through rail business, I. should say that 
 there was from fifty to sixty per cent, of our business 
 goes by the International Bridge. 
 
 Q. How much goes by Suspension Bridge ? 
 
 A. A very small proportion, we do nothing by Sus- 
 pension Bridge except our Canada local business. 
 
 Q. Do you send any through freight here by the 
 Buffalo and Southwestern ? 
 
 A. We are doing quite a trade with the southwest. 
 
 1315 
 
330 
 
 1316 by the Buffalo and Southwestern ; Pittsburg, and that 
 country. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the freight that leaves Hor- 
 nellsville that goes by the Atlantic and Great Western ? 
 
 A. I couldn't tell j'ou, sir. 
 
 Q. A pretty large percentage ? 
 
 A. I know as little about the Western division as 
 you do. 
 
 Q. How much of your west-bound freight goes by 
 
 1317 the Lake Shore railway, about what per cent. ? 
 
 A. I should say from thirty-five to forty per cent, of 
 our rail business, that is only a guess of course. 
 
 Q. What proportion of your west-bound freight goes 
 by water? 
 
 A. Well, you are getting me kind of mixed, I was 
 simply speaking of rail business, what is divided between 
 the different rail lines, take the business that comes into 
 Buffalo over the Buffalo division, and during the season 
 
 1318 of navigation, I should say that there was including tlie 
 coal business sixty to seventy-five per cent, of our busi- 
 ness went by lake. 
 
 Q. Of all your business ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, including the coal business. 
 
 Q. You spoke about the respondent in this case own- 
 ing large coal trestles, do you know who the respondent 
 is in this case? 
 
 A. No, I don't. 
 
 1319 
 
 By Mr. McMillan : Q. Do you know that the Dela- 
 ware, Lackawanna and Western owns those coal trestles ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Locke resuming : Q. You understand tliat 
 this is an extension of the Delaware, Lackawanna and 
 Western ? 
 
 A. I don't know anything about the Delaware, Lack- 
 awanna and Western. 
 
Taylor.] 331 
 
 Q. What company do you understand is trying to 1320 
 cross those tracks down there ? 
 
 A. The New York, Lackawanna and Western. 
 
 Q. Where do yon understand it extends from ? 
 
 A. From Binghamton. 
 
 Q. You don't know that that company owns any 
 coal trestles, do you ? 
 
 A. I don't know anything about it. 
 
 1321 
 
 Re-dwect examination, by Mr. Milburn : 
 
 Q. What track was first laid there, if you know, the 
 Lake Shore or Erie? 
 
 A. I couldn't tell yon. 
 
 Q. Were all those grade crossings in the city of Buf- 
 falo that Mr. Locke mentioned or the majority of them 
 and especially the important ones now made when the 
 business of this road was vastly less than it is now ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Made in its infancy ? 1322 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the whole railroad system has grown up 
 around the facts as they were found around the tracks 
 and crossings as they existed ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When was the junction line of the road projected, 
 
 the Erie Junction line ? 
 
 A. The Erie International ? 
 
 1323 
 Q. No, the Erie Junction, the Falls line? 
 
 A. That was built in 1869. 
 
 Q. Now, when you came to build that you went clear 
 over the heads of the Central track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we did not stop to ask any questions, we 
 went right over them. 
 
 Q. Went right over them on a trestle, on three thou- 
 sand feet of trestle ? 
 
 A. Thirty-seven hundred feet, I believe. 
 
332 
 
 1334 Q. That is right in the city of Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What are the grades there ? 
 
 A. I think it is one foot to the hundred ; I am not 
 sure about it, it is about that anyway. 
 
 Q. On each side? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is part of it also on a curve? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 1325 
 
 Re-cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. The projectors of that road had made a contract 
 with the Great Western Road to connect with the Great 
 Western Road in a certain specified time, hadn't they? 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Didn't you so understand the facts to be ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you not understand that that road had to be 
 ^''■^" completed to the International Bridge within a certain 
 specified time — a limited time ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. To carry out a contract between the Erie 
 
 A. I don't know anything about it ; because it was 
 the year before I came there. 
 
 Q. Didn't you know of their paying twenty and 
 thirty thousand dollars for land that was worth four 
 thousand dollars rather than to 
 
 A. I don't know anything about the road at all, be- 
 cause it was completed the year before I came there. 
 
 Q. Then you don't know whether they went over the 
 New York Central ? 
 
 A. . I know they couldn't wait for the delays, and 
 wouldn't wait. 
 
 Q. They could not; could they? 
 
 A. I don't know, they probably could not. 
 
Taylor.J 333 
 
 Re-direct examination^ by Mr. Milbnrn : 1328 
 
 Q. That is merely what you heard, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. 1 want you to explain one answer as to whether 
 you meant that these freight blocks that we have referred 
 to were the result of a snow blocade or whether that was 
 only one element in several ? 
 
 A. The snow blockade was only one ; we will be 
 short of vessels and cannot get rid of coal, and get an 
 accumulation of two thousand barrels and that blocks 
 the yard up and we cannot handle the current of business ; 
 again, we will be full of grain to New York and we can- 
 not shove the grain out, and we have got to ask the Lake 
 Shore to hold back on it, and they will hang on as long 
 as they can, and the consequence is we will have ten to 
 fifteen hundred cars of grain here. 
 
 Q. Then when there comes a movement of freight is 
 
 it not that all your terminal matters are limited and cir- 
 
 1330 
 cumscribed by these various things ? 
 
 A. We have our tracks all filled up. 
 
 Q. And by those various crossings which delay yon 
 in making up your trains and distributing them ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; all trains in that direction. 
 
 Q. You were here when the International Railway 
 was projected, that is the junction road to the bridge? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know that the award of the commissioners ^33] 
 was so large in that case that tliey had to avoid the cross- 
 ing entirely — to change their line at that point? 
 
 A. They changed their line entirely and went outside 
 of the Central road. 
 
 Q. That was because the commissioners imposed such 
 onerous conditions? 
 
 A. We crossed the New York Central at Black Rock 
 a good deal the same as this crossing. 
 
 Q. And the commissioners imposed such onerous 
 
334 
 
 1332 conditions upon yon that j'ou had to change the line -and 
 go around? 
 
 A. Changed the line and went around. 
 
 Q. Mr. McAlpine: Did the witness say that the 
 Erie Railway crossed at this bridge that you referred to 
 under the same conditions ? 
 
 Witness : They proposed to cross in just about the 
 same sort of way as this crossing ; there the approach to 
 the bridge was so short we couldn't get an over-crossing. 
 
 1333 Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. You know that there are 
 quite a number of railroads projected in the city of Buf- 
 falo to-day ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many grade-crossings are pro- 
 posed altogether by these various roads ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have heard of a large number? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 1334 Q. At all points of your road ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Examined by Com. McAlpine : 
 
 Q. What proportion of all the delays at this crossing 
 of your road with the Lake Shore occur from the inter- 
 ruption of the crossing by the switching and by the bus- 
 iness, which do not otherwise stop at this place, what 
 proportion is there between the switching and the 
 through passenger ? 
 
 1335 j^ You mean the number of cars moved over this 
 crossing that do not stop at the transfer ? 
 
 Q. You spoke of a great many delays occurring at 
 this crossing by the occupancy at the crossing of the 
 Lake Shore Company, and by your occupation of it ; 
 now what proportion of all those delays occur from the 
 switching of the cars from those two places, and what 
 occurs from the regular business which passes through 
 that does not stop at those places ; in other words, how 
 
Taylor.J 335 
 
 much of these delays does the switcliing at this place 1336 
 occasion — what proportion of the whole? 
 
 A. I don't think that I could answer it. 
 
 Q. Only in a general way ? 
 
 A. I know that generally we experience a great deal 
 of delay there, but pist as to the proportions, I couldn't 
 answer intelligently. 
 
 Q. It is more than half, I suppose, due to the switch- 
 ing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I should say so. 1337 
 
 Q. Yoii spoke of a number accidents that occurred at 
 these various crossings, in response to Mr. Locke, what 
 was the condition of the weather when those several acci- 
 dents occurred ? 
 
 A. Well, the most serious accident we have had was 
 one with the Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia; that 
 was a bright, clear day ; we had one the Buffalo, New 
 York and Philadelphia on account of a misunderstanding 
 of signals ; I do not know, sir, that the weather would 1*^38 
 have much to do with anything of that kind. 
 
 Q. It was due rather to a misunderstanding of the 
 signals than to the impossibility of seeing them ? 
 
 A. That is always the excuse when we have an acci- 
 dent of this kind ; they misunderstood the signals ; but 
 it is carelessness of course, that is all there is to it ; it is 
 carelessness on the part of somebody ; one claims he had 
 
 a signal and the other claims he had it. 
 
 1339 ' 
 Q. The grades of the two existing railroads at this 
 
 crossing are necessarily at the same level at the place of 
 their crossing, but on the line of the Lackawanna cross- 
 ing of both roads there is a difference of two feet and 
 one-tenth ; is this difference of level at this place neces- 
 sary, and do you propose to make it the same ? 
 
 A. They are two feet above us. 
 
 Q. It is in testimony that this track is two feet higher 
 
336 
 
 13iO than the other ; could this track be elevated up to that, 
 or this track lowered to that? 
 
 A. Well, I don't know ; that is a point for an engi- 
 neer to decide more pSrticnlarly ; I have not looked at 
 it, and never have heard the point brought up before. 
 
 Q. You spoke of a trestle crossing at East Buffalo, of 
 the Central — what is the difference of level of the rails 
 of the two roads at that place ? 
 
 A. About twenty feet, that is, our track over their 
 
 1341 crossing is about twenty feet. 
 
 Q. The top of your rail is twenty feet above ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Chanute testified that there should be every- 
 where nineteen feet clearance ? 
 
 A. I think we are just about nineteen feet; there is, 
 probably, nineteen feet of head-room there. 
 
 Q. How high is this trestle above the ground at the 
 place of crossing ? 
 
 1342 A. It runs from four to five feet to twenty feet. 
 Q. Twenty feet at the place of crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Examined by Com. Clark : 
 
 Q. I would like to know your judgment, if you have 
 any, on the subject as to whether in your judgment there 
 will be any necessity in the near future, in view of the 
 probable developeraent and increase of business on the 
 Lake Shore and Erie, whether there would be a neces- 
 sity of devising some new scheme of tracks to perform 
 your business as you are now performing it, irrespective of 
 this proposed crossing of the Lackawanna road"? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; that is a question we have had up with 
 the Lake Shore for the past year, and this was part of a 
 plan that Mr. Clark and I agreed upon last year to give 
 us increased facilities there. 
 
 Q. I mean any new mode than the one we have 
 
Linville.J 337 
 
 pointed out to us on this map — new mode of switching 1344 
 and increasing your tracks — or removing them ? 
 
 A. There has been nothing that I am aware of talked 
 of in regard to that ; I thought by getting our double track 
 through there, and getting these additional traiiks connect- 
 ing with the Lake Shore and our track at the other end, 
 we would be able to get along a year or two in that way ; 
 the fact is that business on all the roads is increasing so 
 rapidly, that it is hard work to keep pace with it. 
 
 1345 
 
 Jacob H. Linville, sworn on behalf of the peti- 
 tioner, and examined by Mr. Milburn, testified as fol- 
 lows : 
 
 Q. What is your profession ? 
 
 A. Civil engineer. 
 
 Q. Will you please state briefly what your experience 
 as an engineer has been ? 
 
 A. I have been engaged in engineering twenty-seven ^^342 
 years ; the first two years was in the service and construc- 
 tion of the Pennsylvania Railroad, the proposed line ; 
 the next two years on construction of the Westchester 
 road, and the surveys for the Pennsylvania Railroad — 
 the Westchester and Pennsylvania Railroad ; then I be- 
 came resident engineer of the Pennsylvania road, had 
 charge of maintenance of way, and construction of 
 work on the middle division for five years. 
 
 Q. How many miles are there ? 1347 
 
 A. The middle division I had about 150 miles in 
 charge ; then I became an engineer of bridges and build- 
 ings for the Pennsylvania road, Philadelphia and Erie, 
 and all the dependences of the Pennsylvania road ; held 
 that position for two years, after which I spent two 
 years in constructing bridges for the Pennsylvania road ; 
 then I became president of the Keystone Bridge Com- 
 pany ; held that position about eleven years, and since 
 
338 
 
 1348 that time I have mostly been engaged in the constrnc- 
 tion of railroads. 
 
 Q. And bridges? 
 
 A. Well, I was chief engiiieer of several large 
 bridges: Poiighkeepsie, Keokuk, Hamilton, Newport 
 and Cincinnati, Stubenville, and also designed the 
 bridges of Bellair and Parkersburg, in Ohio ; designed 
 the Newport and Cincinnati bridge, and many large 
 bridges. 
 
 1349 Q. In your experience as engineer, have you had 
 frequently to consider and examine into the matters of 
 one railroad crossing another ? 
 
 A. I never had a case in my experience where I 
 was interested in a crossing, but as an engineer I have 
 examined the matter, and formed my opinions. 
 
 Q. Had you crossings of the Pennsylvania road ? 
 
 A. There was one crossing on tlie division which I 
 had charge of, at Marysville ; crossing the Northern 
 ^"'^^ Central ; that was a grade-crossing. 
 
 Q. Was that the only grade-crossing on that divis- 
 ion ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is the Pennsylvania road in reference to 
 grade-crossings, free from them ? 
 
 A. Almost entirely ; I speak of the New York divis- 
 ion of the Pennsylvania ; there is one at Marysville or 
 Harrisburg, wliere the Northern Central crosses ; there 
 is one in Philadelphia where the Pennsylvania crosses 
 the New York division, also one at Elizabeth, N. J. ; 
 those are the only ones that I recollect on the main 
 line from Pittsburgh to New York. 
 
 Q. Are the crossings of that line mainly over-head 
 crossings, or is it not frequentl}^ crossed? 
 
 A. It is not frequently crossed ? 
 
 Q. Are there over-head crossings ? 
 
 A. I recollect one ; two places, where there are over- 
 
 1351 
 
Linville.J 339 
 
 head crossings ; in constructing the Junction road at 1352 
 Philadelpiiia, which connects the Reading with tlie 
 Philadelphia, Wilmington and Baltimore road, there is 
 an over-head crossing ; at least the Junction road crosses 
 under the New York division ; that was constructed 
 while I was on the Pennsylvania road as engineer ; they 
 have a crossing at a grade, at Philadelphia, south of 
 Walnut street, where they cross the Westchester road; 
 jt was impossible there to make an over-head crossing ; 
 the Westchester road was constructed previous to the 1353 
 Junction road, and the Junction road had to pass un- 
 der the street through a tunnel ; and there was no room 
 to get an elevation sufficient to carry this road over the 
 Westchester road. 
 
 Q. You may state what the result of your experi- 
 ence is as to grade-crossings of important busy rail- 
 roads ? 
 
 A. I consider them objectionable, because they are 
 injurious to the wheels, rolling stock, the danger of col- 
 lisions at crossings, cause delays to trains ; I think that 
 should be avoided where it is practicable. 
 
 Q. You heard the testimony of Mr. Hilton, did you 
 not? 
 
 A. Part of it. 
 
 Q. Did you hear that part of his testimony wherein 
 he described how these crossing- frogs injured the rolling 
 stock, and also how they woi'e out themselves in much 
 greater proportion than the ordinary rails ; did you hear 
 that part of his testimony ? 
 
 A. I heard part of it ; I came in just as he was 
 speaking of crossing-frogs ; about the rigidity, the mass 
 of metal that was in them, and the blow that the wheel 
 received in passing over them. 
 
 Q. On that question of injury to track and rolling 
 stock, were the reasons that he gave substantially the 
 reasons that you would give as to this injury? 
 
340 
 
 1356 A. Well, the reasons that I would give, not knowing 
 exactly what he stated, are that these crossing-frogs, if 
 they are at right angles, that is, if the two traciis cross 
 at right angles, there is a very large opening that tlie 
 wheel must jnmp over ; the wheel will drop down into 
 the opening about two and one-half inches. 
 
 Q. That is, the opening is two and one-half inches? 
 A. Yes, sir ; from two to two and one-half inches ; if 
 the crossing is more acute, at a more acute angle, there 
 1351 is not so much opening of course, because the parallel 
 lilies are not so far apart. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. The opening is the same ; 
 but the width of the face of the wheel makes less of a 
 jump % 
 
 A. Yes, sir (indicates by a diagram). 
 Q. By counsel, resuming: Q. The difference be- 
 tween a slanting-frog and the crossing at right angles is 
 that on the slanting-crossing the wheel catches itself? 
 "* A. Yes, sir ; it is supported on one side almost until 
 the time the otiier portion of the wheel strikes. 
 
 Q. In other words, it is more like passing a switch 
 point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; a switch point or an ordinary frog in a 
 track. 
 
 Q. Anything more that you think of? 
 A. Well, these blows are communicated to the 
 ^„ wheels, and they have a tendency to injure the wheels; 
 the jar of course is communicated from the wheels and 
 axles, and has a tendency to injure the axles, perhaps 
 crystallize them, and cause an accident elsewhere on the 
 road. 
 
 Q. What is the nature of that injury ; you say the 
 wheel gets a blow in going over ? 
 
 A. That would produce an indentation in the wheel, 
 probably, and communicate that jar to tlie axle ; a fre- 
 
Linville] 341 
 
 quent number of those blows of course would have a 1360 
 tendency to crystallize the iron in the axle or break it. 
 
 Q. It has a tendency to crystallize the iron in the axle 
 and thus tend to a breakage? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, with your indentation of a wheel caused by 
 a blow on one of these crossing-frogs, when is it sub- 
 seqnentlj^ manifested by the application of the brake? 
 
 A. Well, I am not prepared to say that you could 
 see that indentation with the naked eye, but it is well 1361 
 known that a series of blows would wear out the wheel ; 
 a series of blows on a sharp point would roughen the 
 surface of it. 
 
 Q. If the wheel is roughened in that way, or chipped, 
 or indented, does not the action of the brake then be- 
 come very different from its normal action on a smooth 
 wheel ? 
 
 A. It would be more apt to slide the wheel, and the 
 consequence would be a flattening of the wheel. 
 
 Q. And that is where the injury comes in, the arrest- 
 ing of the normal action and the break in the wheel 
 together ; this sliding, etc., tends to the destruction of 
 the wheel ? 
 
 A. I think it would have a slight tendency in that 
 
 way. 
 
 Q. The crossing plates themselves and frogs, wear 
 out much faster, do tliey not, than the ordinary rail ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; as a general rule they have to be re- 
 placed very frequently, it depends upon the amount of 
 traffic over them. 
 
 Q. Have you visited the locality where this crossing 
 in question is ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have visited it in company with the 
 other gentlemen last Wednesday. 
 
 Q. At the time the commissioners were there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
342 
 
 1364 Q. And have you also heard the evidence as to the 
 amount of business that is done at that point? 
 
 A. I have heard, I believe, a greater portion of the 
 evidence that has been given in the case. 
 
 Q. Well, you have heard particularly that evidence, 
 have you not, as to the amount of business done there V 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have. 
 
 Q. And from that evidence you have learned that 
 this point of proposed crossing of the Lackawanna, is 
 
 1365 practically a part of the transfer yard between the Erie 
 and Lake Shore railways? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, as an engineer, what would you consider 
 the inevitable results to be of a grade-crossing over all 
 those tracks at that point by the Lackawanna road ? 
 
 A. It would aggravate the difficulties there ; in- 
 crease the delays just in proportion to the amount of 
 business that is transacted over the Lackawanna road 
 that will be transacted over that road. It would also 
 increase the injury to rolling stock ; to put two ad- 
 ditional tracks, there would be three times the injury 
 that there would be with a single track; if there were 
 two additional tracks, there will be tliree times as 
 many as there are now ; those three frogs would make 
 three times as much injury as its passing over one 
 set ; if the Erie puts in another track, then there would 
 -«„„ be just twice as much injury if all that traffic were passed 
 over ; it would be precisely in proportion to the number 
 of frogs put in ; the last answer should be qualified on 
 the supposition that these new frogs come in all the 
 tracks that the other road crosses. 
 
 Q. For every track that is crossed by the Lacka- 
 wanna, how many frogs will that involve ? 
 
 A. Four frogs to each line of their road, if they make 
 a double track line, it will make eight frogs. 
 
 Q. Four frogs to each track crossed ? 
 
& 
 
 Linville.J 343 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there are two frogs to each rail. 1368 
 
 Q. So tliat if there are ten tracks crossed, there will 
 be forty frogs? 
 
 A. Forty frogs to a single track. 
 
 Q. No, that is forty frogs for a double track, is it not? 
 
 A. No, sir; if the Lackawanna makes a double track 
 road, it will involve the use of eight frogs with every 
 track they cross. 
 
 Q. On the Lake Shore and Erie ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 1369 
 
 Q. Then if the Lackawanna crosses ten tracks alto- 
 gether, then there are eighty frogs with a double track? 
 
 A. Eighty frogs. 
 
 Q. Now, at each of those frogs there is this opening ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; there is an opening at every frog. 
 
 Q. I mean the opening you spoke of, of two inches, 
 etc. 
 
 A. There is one of them at every frog ; speaking of 
 the opening that a wheel drops down, there is an open- 1^^ 
 ing to every frog; there is a frog where each rail inter- 
 sects. 
 
 Q. Now, you say there are eighty openings there, 
 then the opening is made, is it not, by the intersection of 
 two rails ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, a single track crossing another single 
 track. There are four intersections of four rails by each 
 other. 
 
 Q. And at each of those intersections there is this 
 opening that you have described ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, taking a car passing over that intersection, 
 does each wheel get two blows, or one? 
 
 A. Each wheel gets two blows, because it gets a blow 
 at every drop. Each wheel gets two blows coming 
 across the Erie, and four coming across the Lackawanna 
 track. It will be three times the two. 
 
344 
 
 1373 Q. If the Erie is a double track? 
 
 A. Then the Lackawanna would just double the 
 number of blows that will be received at the crossing of 
 the Erie and Lake Shore. 
 
 Q. If the Erie is a double track, then the injury from 
 the Erie and the Lackawanna at that point is equal? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But from this map and the map that you have 
 seen, the Lackawanna crosses more tracks, doesn't it, 
 
 1373 than the Erie? According to this map, "Exhibit 3," 
 how many Lake Shore tracks does the Erie cross? 
 
 A. It appears to cross four tracks. 
 
 Q. At the proposed crossing the Lackawanna crosses 
 how many Lake Shore tracks ? 
 
 A. It crosses eight tracks, as shown by this map, 
 No. 3. 
 
 Q. And it crosses how many Erie tracks ? 
 
 A. It crosses two ; that makes ten tracks. 
 
 1374 Q_ go that the Erie, at its crossings, only interferes 
 with four tracks of the Lake Shore Railway ? 
 
 A. It interferes with four tracks of the Lake Shore, 
 and the Lackawanna as the crossing would intersect ten 
 tracks, eight Lake Shore and two Erie, making ten 
 in all. 
 
 Q. Now, taking this quantity of business transacted 
 at this point on the Lake Shore and on the Erie, assum- 
 
 ine; that the Erie has about three hundred thousand cars 
 
 13*'5 
 
 a year passing that point, and the transfer business be- 
 tween those companies, and what should you say as to 
 the efiects of that crossing, a grade-crossing by the 
 Lackawanna at that point, as interfering with business ? 
 
 A. Certainly it would interfere, to a considerable ex- 
 tent, with the business transacted in those yards, the in- 
 terchange of. business between those two roads, it de- 
 pends on the amount of business on the Lackawanna, 
 and the delays they would cause. 
 
Linville.] 345 
 
 Q. Every time that the Lackawanna got control of the 1376 
 crossing, it would suspend the business on all of those 
 ten tracks? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it must necessarily suspend business. 
 There is no room for switching or transfer of cars while 
 that crossing is occupied. 
 
 Q. And such a suspension of business, how as to the 
 operation of that upon the business of important rail- 
 roads at a terminus, the tendencies of it ? 
 
 A. It increases the expense to the railroad compau- 1377 
 ies very materially ; the expense goes on during all the 
 time that business is suspended, that is, engines, and 
 watchmen, and train men, and if delays are caused there, 
 considerable delays to trains, it may affect operations 
 throughout a considerable portion of the line, if delays 
 are such as to put the trains out of time; otherwise, if 
 there were only short delays, they can make up the time 
 before it will interfere with trains running on schedule 
 time. ^378 
 
 Q. From an engineering point of view, is that a state 
 of things to be avoided in the construction or mainte- 
 nance of railroads, especially of trunk lines ? 
 
 A. I should think so ; I would certainly try to avoid 
 grade-crossings in the construction of railroads, particu- 
 larly at such a point as this. 
 
 Q. Now, you have examined this proposed altered 
 route by the petitioner in this proceeding, and I think 
 you have testified to a very large experience in the mat- 
 ter of bridge structures. I will ask you what you say as 
 to the headway that there should be at an overhead 
 crossing at that point? 
 
 A. Do you mean between top of the rail of the road 
 crossed and the top of the rail of tlie road crossing? 
 
 Q. No ; the clear lieadway is what I want, the usual 
 practice ? 
 
 A. The usual practice between the top of the rail 
 
346 
 
 1380 and the bottom of the bridge, a c-.lear headway of nine- 
 teen feet, I think, is sufficient in ordinary cases. 
 
 Q. What would you say as to its being not altogether 
 an uncommon thing to have twenty feet? 
 
 A. It is not an uncommon thing ; some roads require 
 twenty feet. If cars are made higher than they now 
 are, which is about twelve feet, I should say that there 
 ought to be seven feet above the top of freight cars. 
 
 Q. And the ordinary freight car is now twelve feet 
 
 1381 high? 
 
 A. Twelve feet ; but I understand that refrigerator 
 cars are being made somewhat higher than twelve feet ; 
 if they are made thirteen or fourteen feet, twenty feet is 
 not too much, because there shoiild be ample room for a 
 man to etaud on top of a car, so that he should not be 
 struck by the bridge; that is the only thing concerning 
 the height. 
 
 Q. And still you say, as a common thing to-day, nine- 
 
 1382 teen feet is sufficient clear headway ? 
 
 A. I never recollect being called upon to design a 
 bridge with greater headway than that; the railway com- 
 missioners of Massachusetts require nineteen feet. 
 
 Q. To get at this point, the total elevation, what 
 would you add to that nineteen feet ? 
 
 A. If 1 were making a bridge for a double-track 
 road at this point, in consideration of the fact, that is, I 
 made a bridge with two trusses, I could reduce the width 
 
 1383 of embankment and avoid spreading of tracks, and 
 drawing togetlier, I would take a little more depth, take 
 about twenty-seven inches to the base of the rail from 
 the lower side of the girder, which would limit the clear 
 headway, that would be thirty-one inches from the under 
 side of the clearance to the top of the rail to be added 
 to the nineteen feet. 
 
 Q. That would make twenty-one feet seven inches 
 
Linville.J 347 
 
 altogether, from the bottom of the bridge to the top of 1384 
 the rail ? 
 
 A. If I made the bridge of three trusses, wis could 
 get along with a few inches less, probably seven inches 
 less ; it would be about as Mr. Hilton stated it. 
 
 Q. But at this point, taking such a crossing as you 
 have there, you would say that you would prefer two 
 trusses, and give a little more depth ? 
 
 A. Give a little more depth. 
 
 Q. Floor depth? 1385 
 
 Q. Yes, sir, because you would have to treat the em- 
 bankment and trestle work accordingly; I think it would 
 be cheaper to make a two truss-bridge. 
 
 Q. Taking our amended profile as it is, that would 
 allow a clear headway of twenty feet over the Lake 
 Shore track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I understand the height was taken from 
 the Lake Shore track, which, I believe, is the high track. 
 
 Q. Now, you have examined this map, and you have '^" 
 examined it, have you not, with a view to determining 
 about what sort of structures would be necessary for an 
 over-head crossing at this altered point? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, taking the structure as it will have to be, as 
 you say would be proper for that purpose, allowing a 
 clear headway of nineteen feet, and taking it as we have 
 got it, allowing a clear headway of twenty feet, what 
 extra expense, if any, would that extra foot involve in 
 reference to the whole expenditure ? 
 
 A. It would of course come on the base of the em- 
 bankment, a foot deep for a certain distance, and run 
 out to nothing ; I presume it altogether would not amount 
 to over two thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. Does it affect the two lines " A " and "B " ? 
 
 A. It only affects a slight change of grade, which 
 runs out to nothing at u short distance ; it makes a little 
 
348 
 
 1388 more embankment as it approaches the bridge; I think 
 two thousand dollars wonld cover the additional expense ; 
 I have not made any estimate of that, bnt it looks to me 
 as if that was a sufficient allowance. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. It requires a foot additional 
 height in the bridge, and any trestle work that is put in, 
 does it not, additional height of posts and length of 
 braces ? 
 
 A. Not for a long distance ; it might run out in a short 
 
 1389 distance, it would be nothing at the end, and at the top 
 it would be a foot, which would scarcely affect the cost 
 of the trestle ; if it were made with an embankment, it 
 would cause additional expense, the increase is at the 
 bottom, say three thousand yards ; at a quarter of a dol- 
 lar a yard, I think three thousand dollars would cover 
 the whole ; it won't make three thousand dollars differ- 
 ence with trestle, or anything like that ; I don't think it 
 would make three thousand dollars difference in the cost 
 
 "^ " to raise that one foot. 
 
 Q. Taking that line where it deviates, both as to 
 grade, and as to these two lines, and as to course, and 
 what do you say, is there any engineering difficulty or 
 trouble in the way of constructing the line called for by 
 this line and profile, the altei'ed line ? 
 
 A. I don't consider there is anyjengineering'difficulty 
 whatever, it is a matter of cost. 
 
 Q. It all comes down to a matter of expense? 
 
 A. Entirely. 
 
 Q. Will not the altered lines, as we proposed them, 
 and with the elevation as proposed there, give a perfectly 
 good working railroad ? 
 
 A. It would not be quite bo perfect as a straight line, 
 but it will make a good railroad, if properly constructed. 
 
 Q. In the construction of railroads it is nothing out 
 of common to have just the situation of affairs that there 
 is there ? 
 
Linville.J 349 
 
 A. We frequently have greater diflBcnlties than those. 139? 
 
 Q. That wonld not impress you as an engineer as a 
 difficulty of any gravity at all to build that line just as it 
 is proposed by the petitioner in this^proeeeding ? 
 
 A. There is no difficulty in constructing it. 
 
 Q. It all reduces itself to a question of extra cost in 
 building that at an elevation ? 
 
 A. Aside from the other questions that may be raised 
 in relation to it, but at that'location, there is no difficulty 
 in constructing a road that can be operated as an en- 1393 
 gineering problem. 
 
 Q. Taking the purposes to which this land here is 
 applied, this territory where these tracks are, and the 
 increase of business, which should yon say at this point 
 was the preferable line on which to build that over-head 
 crossing; would yon say that the proposed altered line 
 has any advantages over the line as proposed by the 
 Lackawanna, considering them both over-head crossings ? 
 
 A. Considering them both over-head crossings I ^^^^ 
 would consider it easier to construct the bridge on this 
 altered line, than on the line proposed by the Lack- 
 awanna. 
 
 Q. What facts would lead you to that conclusion ? 
 
 A. The reason is that I can obtain shorter spans on 
 the proposed altered line, have fewer tracks to cross; 
 the intermediate portion between the Lake Shore and 
 Erie rights-of-way, of course, can be trestled, or piers 
 can be located at such places as wonld least interfere 
 with any proposed track of that road. 
 
 Q. Couldn't the piers on this proposed line be put so 
 as to interefere less with the tracks and the property ex- 
 tensions in the neighborhood of where there are more 
 tracks on the proposed altered line than on the pro- 
 posed line ? 
 
 A. If it proposed to put in additional tracks on the 
 southerly side of the Lake Shore, any pier between the 
 
350 
 
 l'!96 Lake Shore and Erie tracks, on the proposed route or 
 the Lackawanna road, would interfere more than on the 
 proposed altered route. 
 
 Q. Now, in bridging, in getting over the tracks on 
 the proposed line of the Lackawanna, how would this 
 intermediate space be covered ? 
 
 A. The cheapest way would be to make the spans as 
 short as possible ; put a span over these six tracks be- 
 longing to the Lake Shore, and a span over the interme- 
 1397 diate space, and a span over the space occupied by the 
 Erie — the northerly tracks of the Lake Shore and the 
 Erie. 
 
 Q. Now, if you adopted that plan, would that not ou 
 this proposed line fix your piers so as to shut in the 
 present system of tracks to what they are at present ? 
 
 A.. Certainly. 
 
 Q. By building it on the proposed line you obviate 
 this shutting in of the tracks near where the tracks, or 
 ■ one part of them, converge the Erie and Lake Shore ; 
 by building on the proposed altered line you leave all 
 the space between the proposed altered line and the Erie 
 crossing of the Lake Shore perfectly free and clear from 
 piers, or anything else ? 
 
 A. Well, yon would leave all nortli of the proposed 
 crossing by the Lackawanna. 
 
 Q. On the proposed altered line ? 
 
 A. On the proposed altered line, you would leave all 
 north of that free ; you could on tlie proposed route of 
 the Lackawanna road, place a pier midway between the 
 Erie tracks and the Lake Shore tracks ; make a longer 
 span ; that would cost more ; that would leave a small 
 space between the Central pier and the Lake Shore track. 
 
 Q. But taking it altogether, to build au over-head 
 crosssing, you say that the location of the proposed 
 altered line has the advantages that you mention, over 
 the proposed line of the Lackawanna ? 
 
Linville.J 351 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I believe tliat it is a better location for 1400 
 bridging the tracks. 
 
 By Commissioner Clark : Q. Is that because it is 
 less expensive ? 
 
 A. It is done with trestle-work ; I cannot say which 
 would cost the most ; I do not think there would be 
 inuch difference in the cost. 
 
 Q. Of the two routes, do you mean ? 
 
 A. I prefer the proposed altered to the proposed 
 route, on account of less interference with the existing 14:01 
 tracks and extensions. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by extensions right at that 
 point? 
 
 A. It- refers to extensions of additional tracks there, 
 parallel tracks to the present tracks. 
 
 Q. Suppose they extended further over the proposed 
 altered route ? 
 
 A. If they wished tD extend them further, a pier on 
 that line would interfere with the extension. I'lOS 
 
 Q. Then it would be the same, wouldn't it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I referi'ed to extensions at sidings, con- 
 nections with that system of tracks there ; there is noth- 
 ing to indicate that they intend going further in a south- 
 erly direction. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. The extensions of side 
 tracks, that you mention, would be extensions all com- 
 pleted northerly of the proposed altered line ; you said 
 that building on the proposed line, it would interfere less 
 with the system of tracks as they are now, and with pos- 
 sible extensions. Now, did you mean by tliat extensions 
 of side tracks, which would be entirely north of the pro- 
 posed altered route ? 
 
 A. I did; I referred to tracks switching out from 
 some point northerly of this proposed altered route. 
 
 By Commissioner Clark : Q. The question I put was, 
 
352 
 
 1404: supposing the extensions came south of the proposed 
 altered route, would it make auj difference? 
 
 A. It would simply increase the length of the span 
 of that bridge ; in forming my estimate of the two 
 crossings on the two routes, the one proposed by the 
 Lackawanna, and the altered route proposed by the 
 other company, I assumed a shorter span, because there 
 were fewer tracks across, as shown on the proposed 
 altered route ; but if you provide for additional exten- 
 
 140o gions beyond the proposed altered route, then it increases 
 the length of the span of the first crossing, and it might 
 make the bridge on the pi-oposed altered route cost a 
 little more than on the route proposed by the Lacka- 
 wanna Company ; as the tracks now appear, I believe a 
 bridge on the proposed altered route will not cost any 
 more than upon the route originally proposed by the 
 Lackawanna Company. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. As between the proposed 
 route of the Lackawanna, with reference to its course 
 and with reference to its elevation, and take the pro- 
 posed route with reference to its course, that is, its direc- 
 tion, and its elevation, then what would you say between 
 the two, taking the one as a grade, and the other as au 
 over-head crossing ; what would you say as to the two, as a 
 practical engineer, in reference to the business shown to 
 be done at this point? 
 
 ,^Q~ A. J think a grade-crossing should be avoided if it is 
 possible to do so at any considerable expense ; otherwise 
 it interferes with all the arrangements of tracks now ex- 
 isting, the vested rights of these companies, the position 
 of their property, and will involve a great deal of ex- 
 pense, increased expense to those companies in operating 
 the road, which I think should be avoided if it is possible 
 to avoid it. 
 
 Q. And that is avoided, is it not, by building that an 
 over-head crossing? 
 
Linville.] 353 
 
 A. Precisely, that will avoid, as far as I can see, all 1408 
 interference with this Bj'stem of tracks, and with the 
 operations carried on there. 
 
 Q. And would yon say, as an engineer, with jnst this 
 situation before you, that that, from an engineers' point 
 of view, is a reasonable route with this over-head cross- 
 ing, the proposed altered route, that that is a reasonable 
 thing, to take the place of a grade crossing, in reference 
 to that situation there ? 
 
 A. At that particular point, so far as it relates to this 1400 
 proposed bridge crossing the tracks, I think it is perfectly 
 reasonable, perfectly good ; some of the details of the 
 route beyond the grade, 1 think the parties could im- 
 prove upon by proper examination. 
 
 Q. Taking it just as it is, with this route and this ele- 
 vation, from its point of divergence from their line, as 
 indicated upon this map, and then take this other route, 
 being at grade, and what do you say as to the prefer- 
 ences of the proposed altered route, to that proposed by 
 the Lackawanna, as an engineer? 
 
 A. I should put them over-head ; I should adopt that 
 line in preference to having this crossing. 
 
 Q. You would adopt the proposed altered route with 
 its over-head crossing, in preference to this route with its 
 grade crossing? 
 
 A. I should try to improve that route, if I was the 
 
 Q. Bat as between the two ? 
 
 A. As between the two, if there was no other alter- 
 native, I believe it would be better to adopt the over- 
 head crossing. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. In this answer which you have 
 given, do you take into consideration the interests of the 
 owners of land adjoining, for the interests of the public 
 in the streets, as to the effect which an over-head cross- 
 
 1411 
 
354 
 
 1412 ing would have,- or is your answer from an engineering 
 point of view ? 
 
 A. An engineering point of view, with reference to 
 the business that is being done on these two roads, and 
 with another road to cross there, that it is better to ele- 
 vate it, in consideration of all the difficulties that would 
 be caused by making a grade crossing, if they canpot get 
 a better line, which I know they can, and I know the 
 parties could agree on a better line afterwards, but if 
 
 1413 you can't get a better line, take it as it is, according to 
 the proposed alteration. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. With reference to the 
 streets, and the right of the public in those sti'eets, which 
 is more preferable as you remember the situation there ? 
 
 A. It is preferable to have an elevated road across 
 streets, have over-head crossings, if those streets are 
 going to be opened and built upon. 
 
 Q. And over those streets that are opened and used ? 
 
 1414 ^^ jj. jg better to have over-head crossings, avoid 
 grade crossings at streets. 
 
 Q. The interests of the public are best subserved by 
 crossing at an elevation than by crossing at grade ? 
 
 A. Much better; I believe more serious accidents 
 occur at grade crossings, street crossings, and public road 
 crossings, than in any other way in the operation of rail- 
 roads. 
 
 1415 Cross-examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Do you prefer a tangent to a curve in the construc- 
 tion of a railroad? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you prefer a reverse curve to a simple curve ? 
 
 A. No, sii'. 
 
 Q. Is a tangent considerably more desirable than a 
 curve ? 
 
 A. It depends upon the degree of curvature. 
 
Linville x ] 355 
 
 Q. It is considerably more desirable than any reverse 1416 
 curve? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it is more desirable if the reverse c.nrve 
 has a liigli degree of curvature. 
 
 Q. Which should you say, assuming that both were 
 over-crossings, and taking into consideration the whole 
 line from Buffalo River to Louisiana street, one a tan- 
 gent and the other a curve, which would you say was 
 the preferable hne for the interests of both parties and 
 the public, provided both involved an over-crossing? 1417 
 
 A. A perfectly straight line is preferable. 
 Q. Taking all the circumstances, one a tangent line 
 and the other embodying curves and reverse curves, 
 which would you say was the most desirable, both ovei-- 
 liead crossings? 
 
 A. I would prefer the straight line. 
 Q. You would prefer the adopted line ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Assuming that both were to be grade-crossings, ^'^'-^ 
 which would you prefer ? 
 
 A. I would prefer the crossing at this place (wit- 
 ness indicates on the map) ; the allignment of the 
 line proposed by the Lackawanna Company is the better 
 line. 
 
 Q. Weighing the difiiculties on the one side against 
 the difficulties on the other, which do you regard is the 
 better route, both to be grade-crossings? 
 
 A. Suppose they are both grade-crossings there is 
 no difficulty in making just as good a line for the altered 
 route as the proposed route, as the curves are put into 
 there for the purpose of diverging it into this line ; those 
 are things that can be obviated. 
 
 Q. I am talking about tlie lines as they are, with the 
 curves and everything, and taking the proposed route 
 and the proposed altered route, and is not the proposed 
 route the better route if both are to be grade-crossings? 
 
356 
 
 1420 A. It is a better line for a railroad, but it is not the 
 better route for all the parties in interest, because it in- 
 volves a crossing at a place that I think is more objec- 
 tionable to the interest of the other railroad crossings. 
 
 Q. You have heard Mr. Hawks testify ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Don't you think it is desirable for all parties con- 
 cerned that it shall be as far north from the bridge as 
 possible ? 
 1431 A. I don't think that is very material. 
 
 Q. Don't you think it should be as near the Erie 
 crossing as possible ? 
 
 A. Not necessarily. 
 
 Q. Don't you think ihat it is better where it is, near 
 the Erie crossing, than it would be a thousand feet away 
 from the Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. If you go as far as a thousand feet it would in- 
 terfere less with the yards than it does where it is now, 
 
 1422 
 
 but fifty feet or one hundred feet further southward 
 
 would make no material difference in switching, because 
 
 the switching would have to be suspended while the 
 
 Lackawanna was crossing. 
 
 Q. All that Lake Shore switching has to cross the 
 Erie now ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it now desirable, if it is going to cross the cross- 
 -..„., ing at all, that they should be as near together as possi- 
 ble, so tliat all the crossings will be under the control of 
 one person ? 
 
 A. So far as one target — if one target man could 
 answer for both roads, so far it would be an advantage, 
 but the disadvantage that has appeared to bring them 
 closer together, is that you cross more tracks, more 
 frogs. 
 
 Q. That is the only trouble ? 
 
Linville x] 357 
 
 A. That is the only one that I see ; there is a little 14:24 
 diiferenoe in the bridges, as I stated before. 
 
 Q. You say you would prefer the over-head crossing 
 to the grade, provided the over-head crossing could be 
 made for a reasonable expense ; have yon made any 
 estimate as to the cost ot that over-head crossing? 
 
 A. I have made some approximate figures. 
 
 Q. What did you figure up ; you say you have made 
 an estimate? 
 
 A. I have made some approximate estimate. 1425 
 
 Q. Have you figured up the cubic yards of earth that 
 would be taken to make that filling from this crossing 
 clear on the Buffalo River ? 
 
 Mr. Milburn : Before the witness leaves here we will 
 have him testify to dollars and cents and measurements. 
 
 Q. Have you made any figures at all ? 
 
 A. I made some approximate figures. 
 
 Q. Have you guessed at it? 
 
 A. Not entirely. 1420 
 
 Q. Have you had the two profiles together? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many cubic yards of filling it 
 will require to fill on the one route over and above the 
 yards required to fill on the other route ? 
 
 A. I cannot state the figures. 
 
 Q. Now you spoke about these frogs, and their mak- 
 ing imperceptible nicks upon the car-wheel ? 
 
 A. They may be imperceptible to the naked eye. 
 
 Q. The result would be the brakes would hold in 
 consequence of that ; don't railroad men intend that 
 brakes should hold? 
 
 A. Not to slide the wheels if they can avoid it. 
 
 Q. Isn't it desirable in setting a brake to have it 
 
 hold? 
 
 A. In touching the brake the object is to check 
 
 trains. 
 
 1427 
 
358 
 
 1428 Q. And hold the wheel ? 
 
 A. Not exactly ; it is not to hold the wheel from 
 tnrning around ; if you do that you produce something 
 that it is the intention of railroad men to avoid. 
 
 Q. And the brakeraan should put on his l)iako not 
 too hard, but just hard enough ? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. A powerful brakeman would be a detriment to a 
 railroad train ? 
 
 1429 A. I don't think he is exactly. 
 
 Q. When did you come to the city ? 
 
 A. I came, I think, on Tuesday morning. 
 
 Q. At whose suggestion did you come ? 
 
 A. I was in consultation with Mr. Chanute in New 
 York ; I was in New York in reference to a viaduct that 
 he proposes to build. 
 
 Q. Where ? 
 
 A. The viaduct is on some Bradford extension, on a 
 
 1430 branch road of the Erie road ; I don't know the name of 
 the road ; and while there Mr. Chanute asked me to come 
 here and look over this matter and give my testimony if 
 called upon. 
 
 Q. And so you came ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where is this Bradford road ? 
 
 A. 1 don't know anything about that road. I had 
 simply referred to me the plans of the viaduct. 
 
 Q. Yon don't know where that is ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you take a contract of the viaduct ? 
 
 A. I was called in consultation as to the plans. 
 
 Q. Where is your place of business ? 
 
 A. Philadelphia. 
 
 Q. What is the name of the concern ? 
 
 A. I am not in business now, I am consulting 
 engineer. 
 
Linville xj 359 
 
 A. You do not build iron bridges or anything of that 1433 
 sort, just simply give advice in i-egard to matters? 
 
 A. As I stated in my testimony, I am president of 
 the Keystone Bridge Company ; I haven't been in busi- 
 ness for two years. 
 
 Q. You say you have made an approximate estimate 
 of the cost here ; I am requested to ask you what your 
 approximate estimate on the expense of the construction 
 of the altered route is over the cost of construction of the 
 proposed route? 1433 
 
 Mr. Milburn : I object to that. 
 
 Q. In what connection did you use the words " rea- 
 sonable expense " before. Didn't you say you would 
 prefer this altered route provided it could be built at a 
 reasonable expense ? 
 
 A. I think I said any reasonable expense. 
 
 Q. What would you consider a reasonable expense 
 for taking that route from the other side of Buifalo 
 River clear around to Louisiana street ; what would you * 
 change your ideas in regard to the subject and would 
 make you take our proposed route instead of the pro- 
 posed altered route. How large an expenditure would 
 you consider it desirable to avoid ? 
 
 A. I would look at it in this way, if — 
 
 Q. Suppose you would save one hundred thousand 
 dollars in cost of construction by taking the proposed 
 altered route and make an over-crossing, would you do 
 it in preference to going the other way. I am talking 
 about this road. Suppose you were the engineer of the 
 Lackawanna road and had the power to go where you 
 wanted to ? 
 
 A. That is entirely a different matter. 
 
 Q. Suppose you were the engineer of both roads? 
 
 A. If I were engineer of both of these roads and iiad 
 to build that road, I would take into consideration the 
 interest on the capital of building the other road, and I 
 
360 
 
 1430 think that would pay the difference of making an over- 
 head crossing there, the difference of inconveniences and 
 expenses and everything incurred would pay the interest 
 on more than half a million of dollars. 
 
 Q. If the one did not cost moi-e than half a million 
 more than the other, you would go over-head ? 
 
 A. I would not consider that unreasonable. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the laws of the State of New 
 York are in regard to railroads aflording facilities to new 
 1437 companies to intersect them, and to make connections 
 with them and all that sort of thing ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I do not. 
 
 Q. If it were a part of the franchise of the Luke 
 Shore road that they should afford all facilities for all 
 other roads to intersect with it and connect with it, would 
 that make any differenqe in your ideas at all ? 
 
 A. My answer did not involve that question at all. 
 We were looking at this as an engineering problem, ir- 
 ■^° respective of any crossings or connections. I was an- 
 swering it as if I was engineer of the three roads, and I 
 consider the inconvenience of shifting cars, transferring 
 of freight, danger to life and all those matters ; I con- 
 sider they would cost a greater expense per annum than 
 thirty thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. Do you put first the danger to life or the wear 
 and tear of wheels ? 
 . „ A. Of course I would consider the risk of life the 
 first thing to consider. 
 
 Q. Did you ever build a railroad yourself? 
 
 A. I have built railroads. 
 
 Q. How long? 
 
 A. Not a very long road. I was engineer of the 
 Pennsylvania road. 
 
 Q. Were you the engineer of that road ? 
 
 A. On the completion of it. 
 
 Q. Did you lay it out ? 
 
Linville x] 361 
 
 A. No, sir. 1440 
 
 Q. Did you ever lay out a road anywhere? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where? 
 
 A. I have laid out many roads around Philadelphia 
 for the Pennsylvania road ; the city extensions and short 
 lines on the Pennsylvania road. 
 
 Q. Were you chief engineer on the Pennsylvania 
 road ? 
 
 A. I went into the Pennsylvania road when it went 1441 
 into operation. 
 
 Q. It is in operation now ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you chief engineer ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What relation did you hold in the Pennsylvania 
 road? 
 
 A. I was making a survey. 
 
 Q. How much of it ? ^^*^ 
 
 A. I was engineer of about one hundred and fifty 
 miles. 
 
 Q. Did you ever build an over-head crossing ? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Did you ever make a grade-crossing ? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Did you ever operate a grade-crossing ? 
 
 A. I never operated a railroad. 
 
 Q. Then your knowledge in regard to the troubles 
 of a grade-crossing are simply theoretical ? 
 
 A. It is not difficult for an engineer to see those 
 matters. 
 
 Q. Your knowledge in regard to the troubles of a 
 grade-crossing are simply theoretical, I say ? 
 
 A. From observation and from a grade-crossing at 
 Philadelphia that has been under my observation almost 
 every day. 
 
362 
 
 1444 Q. Where is that ? 
 
 A. It is one of those I mentioned at the end of the 
 tunnel south of Walnut street. 
 
 Q. What road comes in at the south end of Walnut 
 street ? 
 
 A. It is near the junction road ; it connects the Phila- 
 delphia, Wilmington and Baltimore Road. 
 
 Q. Is that the road we take when we come from 
 Washington to Buffalo ? 
 
 1445 A. When you come from Baltimore to Washington 
 you cross that crossing. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been to New Brunswick ? 
 A. Did you ever see that grade-crossing there with 
 the Jersey Central ? 
 
 A. At Elizabeth, you mean ? 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you been there ? 
 
 1446 . --i. ,, 
 A. t requently. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many trains pass that grade- 
 crossing a day ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea ? 
 
 A. I have not. 
 
 Q. Aren't there nearly two hundred ? 
 
 A. I don't know ; I know the traffic of the Pennsyl- 
 -^^^^ vania and New York Division and the Jersey Central 
 pass that point. 
 
 Q. It is a heavy traffic, isn't it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, And very successfully operated ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 He-direct examination, by Mr. Jlilburn : 
 Q. When you say, for instance, tiiat the alignment of 
 their proposed road is better than the alignment of the 
 
Linville.] 363 
 
 other, you are speaking simply with reference to their 1448 
 courses, and not as to the effects of grade crossuigs in 
 this yard ? 
 
 A. That is what I stated, irrespective of those. 
 
 Q. Every straight line without even a three-degree 
 curve is of course ^e?' se a preferable line to one with a 
 curve ? 
 
 A. That is my meaning precisely. 
 
 Q. Looking at tlie whole matter, all the questions 
 covered by the two lines with reference to this, the ques- 1449 
 tion of a three-degree curve there dwindles into slight 
 importance, doesn't it ? 
 
 A. I think it does. 
 
 Q. A three-degree curve is not much of a curve on a 
 railroad ? 
 
 A. No, sir; it has nineteen hundred and ten feet 
 radius ; it is a long radius. 
 
 Q. In fact a good deal depends when you are talking 
 about that alignment as to whose interest you are look- 
 ing at ? 
 
 A. If there are no difficulties, no other considera- 
 tions, an engineer would make a straight line. 
 
 Q. Taking tlie Lackawanna road, its interest would 
 
 be materially subserved by an over-head crossing to a 
 
 crossing that would delay its trains over ten tracks with 
 
 eighty frogs ; that is a serious objection purely with 
 
 reference to the Lackawanna road and the business it 
 
 1451 
 would do ? 
 
 A. You would avoid all that by making an over-head 
 crossing. 
 
 Q. They avoid these eighty openings in frogs and 
 the delays to their business consequent upon crossing 
 the ten tracks there ? 
 
 A. Certainly, that would be very considerable unless 
 they have arrangements that the switching shall stop 
 when their trains come. 
 
364 
 
 1452 Q. If thebusiuess that is done there to-day, as is dis- 
 closed in the evidence, is to delay their trains, it will be 
 a rather serious question of delay to them ? 
 
 A. Very serious, unless they can claim the right of 
 way. 
 
 Q. In reference to these points, the over-head cross- 
 ing is just as much a decided advantage to the Lacka- 
 wanna as it is to the Erie and the Lake Shore Road ? 
 
 A. Precisely with that view that I answered as I did, 
 14:53 that if I were engineer of the three tracks, I would take 
 into consideration all those facts and make an over-head 
 crossing. 
 
 Com. Clark : In speaking of bridges in your testi- 
 mony, have you alluded to iron bridges? 
 
 A. I had iron bridges in my mind ? 
 
 Q. Will you state what tlie longest span is which you 
 adopt building iron bridges ? 
 
 A. It is ciieaper to make short spans? 
 ° Q. How long would it be practicable to build a span 
 at either of these points — a single span ? 
 
 A. If the pier is twenty feet high it would be cheaper 
 to go not over one hundred feet to the span. 
 
 Q. On that proposed line could there be a bridge of 
 one single span ? 
 
 A. That would be a very expensive bridge. 
 
 Q. As to the price of a bridge, what is the compara- 
 tive price of a short span to that of a long span ? 
 
 A. You would have to go four hundred feet — 
 
 Q. What is the comparative price ? 
 
 A. A bridge of one hundred feet span, of a track 
 bridge, would cost about ten thousand doUars. 
 
 Q. Can you give me a comparison of prices of long 
 spans and short spans ? 
 
 A. It is almost as the square of the span. 
 
 Q. If you double the span the cost is increased four 
 times ? 
 
 1455 
 
Linville.J 365 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 1456 
 
 Examination by Mr. McAlpine : 
 
 Q. At every crossing of one track with another track 
 at right angles, how many blows do each wheel strike in 
 passing ? 
 
 A. That is, the crossing of one single track with an- 
 other single track ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. Each wheel gives two blows. 1457 
 
 Q. If both of the roads have double tracks, how 
 many blows does each wheel strike ? 
 
 A. It would be eight blows, if both roads are double 
 tracks. It receives four blows if it is a single track 
 crossing a double track. 
 
 He-cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. You said, in your judgment, a wheel receives a 
 sharper blow where the crossing was at a right angle 1458 
 than where it was at more of an acute angle ? 
 
 A. I think it does. 
 
 Q. Which is the preferable, a crossing at right angles 
 or a crossing at acute angles? 
 
 A. I think that would depend very much upon cir- 
 cumstances ; I think that — 
 
 Q. Take it at such a place as this, isn't the more di- 
 rect crossing the better on account of the time occupied ? 
 
 A. I don't think there is difference enough in those 1*59 
 two crossings to make any appreciable difference. 
 
 lie-direct examination, by Mr. Milburn : 
 
 Q. Take that reverse curve which is mentioned here, 
 and at the rate of speed that trains would naturally have 
 to go, coming into the city here, do you, under those 
 circumstances, consider it much disadvantage? 
 
 A. Not at low speed, no serious disadvantage. 
 
366 
 
 1460 Re-cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Do you think that the fact that all trains now 
 have to stop on either side of this crossing, is an element 
 to be considered at all in locating the crossing ? 
 
 A. I don't think that has sufficient weight to afi'ect 
 the manner of changing from the located to the altered line. 
 
 Q. You don't tJiink that it is enough ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I don't think that that amount of trans- 
 ference of location is. 
 ^^^'^ Q. That is, from the proposed crossing to the pro- 
 posed altered crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes; I don't think it would affect that. 
 
 Q. What V 
 
 A. I don't think it would affect the matter that all 
 trains are obliged to stop at this point. I don't think 
 that going that distance would make any serious 
 difference. 
 
 Q. If you were going to locate a crossing over a rail- 
 road owned by me, wouldn't you think that it would be 
 judicious upon your part to locate your crossing, espe- 
 cially if it was a grade-crossing, at a point where my 
 trains were already required to stop ? 
 
 A. 1 would rather place it near that if the same stop 
 would answer. 
 
 Q. It is very important that the same stop should 
 answer ? 
 
 A. It avoids two stops. 
 
 Q. Don't it very much tend to depreciate the danger 
 of accidents ? 
 
 A. In the crossing you are speaking of, out in the 
 country, where there is one simple line crossing the 
 other, it might be better to have those two crossings 
 near enough together so that one stop would answer, but 
 I mean that the distance of change here is not sufficient 
 to have any weight in this case. 
 
 Mr. Greene : Whether it was located within one 
 
 1462 
 
 1463 
 
Linville xj 367 
 
 hundred feet or three hundred feet would not make any 1464 
 material difference in a level country ? 
 
 A. No, sir, because the one stop would answer just 
 as well. 
 
 Mr. Locke : This crossing is a great deal worse than 
 it would be if it was five miles up the Lake Shore road, 
 the crossing at this point, between two stations five miles 
 up the Lake Shore, it is a great deal worse here than it 
 would be up there? 
 
 A. It is worse here because it crosses so many tracks. 1465 
 
 Q. Is that the only difference? 
 
 A. A crossing is a crossing, it don't make any differ- 
 ence where it crosses. 
 
 Q. If it was five miles up the Lake Shore, it would 
 compel every train to stop ? 
 
 A. It would not interfere with the shifting of cars. 
 
 Q. If it was five miles i;p the Lake Shore road, it 
 would involve the stopping of every passenger train that 
 approached that crossing at a high rate of speed ? 1^66 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the starting of every passenger train ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is precisely the reasons that I gave. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't the cause resulting from those stop- 
 pages and the increased danger of accidents, because 
 ti'ains would approach that crossing at a high rate of 
 speed, while in the city they are limited, wouldn't thjse 
 two elements make tlie crossing five miles out in the 
 
 1 4.fi7 
 
 country a worse crossing for the Lake Shore road than 
 this proposed crossing ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't those elements counterbalance the evils 
 attendant upon the switching? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon think that tlie Erie crossing is worse for the 
 Lake Shore road than a crossing at grade would be five 
 miles out on their main line? 
 
368 
 
 1468 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And which necessitated the stopping of trains at 
 a point where they were under a high rate of speed ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You think that is a worse crossing for tliis road 
 than a crossing would be five nailes out ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, decidedly. 
 
 Re-direct examination, by Mr. Milbm-n : 
 
 14:69 Q" '^'^^ crossing is worse, and worse in this relation 
 to a system of tracks such as that ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is why I consider it to be worse here 
 than if it were out on the road. It would be a simple 
 crossing, here it is a crossing of a great many tracks, and 
 interferes with the transfer business between those two 
 companies, and causes great delay. 
 
 Re-cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Assuming that in the twenty-four hours there 
 were intervals of five minutes when that crossing is not 
 now in use, sufficiently in use to aggregate five hours out 
 of the twenty-four, wouldn't you sa.j that that eliminated 
 very largely the question of delays, from this case ? 
 
 A. That would depend entirely upon what time those 
 
 intervals fell ; if they were at times when it would not 
 
 interfere with the shifting of trains, when they were not 
 
 occupied shifting trains, if tliose intervals occur at the 
 
 ]^47l time the Lackawanna wished to cross. 
 
 Q. I suppose those things could be adjusted? 
 
 A. I am not able to say. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would be difficult ? 
 
 A. I think it would. 
 
 Q. Assuming that those things could be adjusted in 
 such a way hereafter, that the Lackawanna could not use 
 that crossing, and would have to wait four hours, if need 
 be, until it was free, would that interfere with your 
 calculation ? 
 
1473 
 
 Haven.] ' 369 
 
 A. That still leaves the damages to wheels, and all 1472 
 that sort of thing. 
 
 Q. Would you call that fifty per cent. ? 
 
 A. No, sir; I would not place an estimate upon that. 
 
 William A. Haven, sworn for the petitioners, and 
 examined by Mr. Mil burn, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Your profession is that of an engineer ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A civil engineer? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you occupy what position at present ? 
 
 A. Engineer in charge of construction of the Buffalo 
 division of the New York, Lake Erie and Western 
 division. 
 
 Q. The Western division ? 
 
 A. The Buffalo division. 
 
 Q. That extends from Buffalo to Hornellsville? ,,™. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have charge of all the construction and the 
 improvements that the Erie Railway are now making 
 between those two points ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Including all the matters in the city of Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have about how many men employed in con- 
 struction in your division? 1475 
 
 A. About eight hundred, sir. 
 
 Q. At what time was this double track of the Erie, 
 at the crossing of the Lake Shore, and these changes 
 that have been spoken of here to-day in the Lake Shore 
 track, when were those decided upon ? 
 
 A. In August or September, 1880. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if since that time you have been 
 very much occupied with construction in the city of 
 Buffalo and on your division ? 
 
370 
 
 14-76 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What yourself and your force have been engaged 
 in the construction is, in the various loop lines on the 
 road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And also construction in the city of Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Just explain to us what the cause of the delay 
 that there has been there in carrying out the understand- 
 1477 ing that was then reached as to changes? 
 
 Q. First, it was necessary to construct the additional 
 crossing-frogs, which took a month or six weeks, which 
 was work that the blacksmith had to do at the time, or 
 the blacksmithiug force at Attica ; so it was the middle 
 of October before the frogs were done ; at that time bad 
 weather came on, heavy rains followed by freezing up ; 
 so that last fall nothing could be done, and it was delayed 
 until this spring ; early in the spring all our men were 
 ^^'^^ engaged in taking up the third rail on the division, so 
 they could not take care of it, but as soon as they were 
 able to do so, we sent the frogs which were made for the 
 second track at this point to Buffalo, and put them in 
 cliarge of the road supervisor; he misunderstood the 
 order and put them into the odd crossing to replace the 
 ones which were in rather bad shape at that tinie ; so 
 we had to wait until new ones could be made before we 
 could put them into the crossing that they were designed 
 for ; the frogs finally arrived here the early part of June, 
 and they were put in as soon as they could get here; in 
 the meanwhile the Lake Shore people had to change 
 their frogs a distance of eight or ten feet ; they were put 
 in Sunday before last, I think, and in the meantime we 
 went ahead grading up that track ; that was the cause of 
 the delay. 
 
 Q. If it had not been for that mistake with the frogs, 
 when would that track have been in there ? 
 
Haven.] 371 
 
 A. Early in May. 1480 
 
 Q. Early in May, did you say ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. This new frog was there then for that purpose ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were those arrangements entered into as to that 
 double track, or carried out with any reference to the 
 Lackawanna route? 
 
 A. No, sir ; the Lackawanna route had not been 
 heard of in this section of the country, it was simply put 1481 
 in to facilitate the business of our road to and from our 
 Ohio street freight-house. 
 
 Q. This map was prepared under your direction, was 
 it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the Lake Shore draughtsman went to work 
 at it also^and got out their copies iti your office? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The change of routes suggested by both companies 
 being the same ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; Mr. Clark met me at the crossing and 
 suggested that it was very important in his 
 
 Q. You met Mr. Clark at that crossing before any 
 map was prepared ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; before any survey was made. 
 
 Q. You and he decided upon a change in the route? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, upon the west side of Sandusky street, 
 instead of where it is now. 
 
 Q. And then the map was made after that time ? 
 
 A. After the surveys were made, the maps were 
 made. 
 
 Q. Do you remember how many days, before the last 
 day it was served, it was before you got to work at the 
 map — it was what day that you got to work at this map? 
 
 A. I think it was Sunday. 
 
372 
 
 1484 Q. And the maps had to be completed and served by 
 Thursday or Friday ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of the same week ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. During that time I will ask you if it required 
 yourself and your assistants to be working pretty much 
 all night ? 
 
 A. I think we worked night and day for four nights 
 
 1485 and days. 
 
 Q. The reason of these questions is to bring out this, 
 if in the early hours in the morning this profile threw 
 them up higher than you intended to ? 
 
 A. Fivefeet just exactly. 
 
 Q. That was through what ? 
 
 A. From not having good sight at midnight. 
 
 Q. That was a pure error ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 ^^^^ Q. It was not what you designed to do ? 
 
 A. No, sir, not at all ; we intended to have it about 
 eighteen or twenty feet, nineteen or twenty feet, and look- 
 ing at our profile paper, which is finely ruled paper, and 
 ray eyes being not as good as they were twenty years 
 ago, we made a mistake of five feet. 
 
 Q. Do you know the clear headway that the Lake 
 Shore applies for its bridges on its line ? 
 
 A. Not personally. 
 
 Q. You only know what you have been advised by 
 them ? 
 
 A. I have been told by them. 
 
 Q. What were you advised ? 
 
 A. I will tell you one reason I gave it twenty feet 
 headway, and that was the manner of this crossing ; on 
 the profile of the Erie Railroad, on the Abbott turnpike, 
 it goes over quite a steep hill here, crossing the Lake 
 Shore quite high ; I prepared a profile last fall, which I 
 
Haven.] 373 
 
 showed to Mr. Clark, intending that it was going to im- 1488 
 prove that slightly. 
 
 At the grade of the Lake Shore road from the Erie 
 crossing to their bridge, ascends quite rapidly, twenty- 
 five feet to the mile, and it was designed in arranging 
 our grade, to allow them to throw their track up one foot 
 at this point, so as to raise their tracks from switch num- 
 ber three from their grades, taking out the sag of their 
 track ; to arrange the grade of the Lackawanna road, 
 and Lake Shore road, I allowed for the raise of either 1489 
 track one foot, making it twenty feet instead of nine- 
 teen, and by mistake I got it twenty-five instead of 
 twenty. 
 
 Q. This proposed line that you have laid out here, do 
 yon consider it a perfectly practicable and feasible line 
 for these gentlemen ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And preferable to their present line running at 
 grade over this location where it is ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, preferable to that line. 
 
 Q. Of course you are perfectly well aware of all that 
 locality, and the business that is done there generally. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It is none of your business to manage the busi- 
 ness ? ■' 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you tell us your reasons for preferring this ^^^^ 
 alternate line to this line, we will say at present, without 
 reference to the grade or elevation ? 
 
 A. It crosses less tracks, it makes the crossings solid. 
 
 Q. And whether this is regarded as an over-head 
 crossing, or both are regarded as grade-crossings, under 
 both circumstances you prefer the proposed altered line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For that reason ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
374 
 
 1492 Q. And also with reference to less interference with 
 the business here ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, on account of the Lake Shore, it allows 
 them to have more tracks here, and to use the ground 
 which was purchased for the purpose of additional facil- 
 ities ; if the Lackawanna is located here (witness indi- 
 cates on the map) with an abutment, it interferes con- 
 siderably with the putting in of additional tracks, and 
 to swing around the abutments and the piers ; whereas 
 
 1493 down here it simply crosses the right-of-way line. 
 
 Q. That curve, this reverse curve, how much of a 
 practical difficulty is it at that point, considering the speed 
 that the trains will have to go there ? 
 
 A. I should not consider it of any moment, locating 
 a line at that point. 
 
 Q. This line "A," as shown by the profile, crosses the 
 Buffalo Creek Eailroad, does it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon said this change, as indicated in the profile 
 here, crosses the Buffalo Creek Railroad ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That Buffalo Creek Railroad extends from where ? 
 
 A. It extends from the New York Central Railroad. 
 
 Q. As it comes into the city ? 
 
 A. On the northeast, the New York Central Railroad 
 at Smith street around the city to the lake. 
 1495 Q' "^^^^^ I'oad is called the belt road, a railroad for 
 the use of all other railroads entering the city ? 
 
 A. I think so ; I understand it so. 
 
 Q, That is the way it is operated ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It connects with what roads ? 
 
 A. The New York Central, the New York, Lake 
 Erie and Western, the Buffalo, New York and Philadel- 
 phia, and the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern. 
 
 Q. The Buffalo and Southwestern ? 
 
Haven. J 375 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is a part of tlie Erie. 1496 
 
 Q. It connects with all of those ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does it do business with all of them? 
 A. It carries the cars of each road. 
 Q. That road to-day, at present, is a single track 
 railroad ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And what as to the amount of business that is 
 done upon it by these various roads? 1497 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. It crosses all of these roads at grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and connects with them ; has switches 
 into them ; it is built for that purpose. 
 
 Q. The main line of the Lackawanna road strikes 
 that Buffalo Creek road or would strike it just across the 
 Southwestern crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; between the Soutliwestern crossing and 
 the lake. . 1^98 
 
 Q. Line " B " of the Lackawanna as indicated on 
 any alteration that you have made on the map, is left at 
 gi'ade, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It is only line " A " as indicated on this map five 
 that is carried over the Buffalo Creek road, at an 
 elevation ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^^^^ 
 
 Q. By the altered line? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What elevation is that? 
 
 A. Nineteen feet. 
 
 Q. Nineteen feet clear ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As they have it they have two grade-crossings on 
 that Buffalo Creek road, with these lines " A " and " B " 
 quite close to each other? 
 
376 
 
 1500 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How close ? 
 
 A. Within a thousand feet. 
 
 Q. Are you aware of any reason with the knowledge 
 that you have of the situation, etc., of the necessity of 
 two lines there? 
 
 A. I don't see any. 
 
 Gross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 1501 Q. From whom did you first hear in regard to this 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. From Mr. Milburu, or somebody at Sprague, Mil- 
 burn & Sprague's informed me of their crossing there. 
 
 Q. What did you do then? 
 
 A. I telegraphed to Mr. Clark asking him if he wished 
 to make any objection to it. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Clark reply? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; Mr. Clark replied. 
 
 1502 Q_ j)j^j yQ^ telegraph Mr. Clark at the suggestion of 
 Mr. Milburn? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How did it interest you whether he wanted any 
 change or not ? 
 
 A. As the lines were, the objections would be identi- 
 cal with both roads, it was more important for the Lake 
 Shore than it was for the Erie, and I thought we had 
 better make maps. 
 
 Q. What day was it that you telegraphed him ? 
 
 A. I don't know the day of the week. 
 
 Q. We filed the maps on the 19th day of May ? 
 
 A. That was on Thursday? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. I heard of it on the next Tuesday or Wednesday 
 morning. 
 
 Q. From Mr. Milburn? 
 
 A. 1 heard it from somebody there. 
 
Haven x] 377 
 
 Q. Was that the first communication yon had on 1504 
 the subject? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You telegraphed Mr. Clark on your own respon- 
 sibility ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you take any further step until you saw Mr. 
 Clark ? 
 
 A. At that crossing? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 1505 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you go down there at all? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I went to the crossing to look at it. 
 
 Q. After you telegraphed Mr. Clark ? 
 
 A. No, sir; before. 
 
 Q. Did you keep copies of your telegrams ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. By what line did you send them ? 
 
 A. By the Lake Shore line. 1506 
 
 Q. Did you keep copies of your replies? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. From what office did you send them ? 
 
 A. The Lake Shore office. 
 
 Q. Whereabouts ? 
 
 A. At the Central Depot. 
 
 Q. When did Mr. Clark come upon the ground ? 
 
 A. On the following Saturday morning. 
 
 Q. Did you have any further interviews with Mr. 
 Milburn before you saw Mr. Clark? 
 
 A. Several. 
 
 Q. Where ? 
 
 A. Both in his office and my office. 
 
 Q. Did he explain to you the law of the case ? 
 
 A. I don't think he did. 
 
 Q. He didn't know anything about the law of the 
 case? 
 
378 
 
 1508 A. I don't know about that. 
 
 Q. Didn't yon ever get a hint from an^'body that it 
 was necessary to make a nominal change of location here 
 in order to take the benefit of a certain provision of the 
 railroad law ? 
 
 A. I knew that before. 
 
 Q. You went down Saturday, which must have been 
 the twenty-eighth day of May— the twenty-sixth was 
 Thursday ? 
 1609 ^ j(. juigljt have been the twenty-seventh or twenty- 
 eighth. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Clark meet you thei-e ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long did you stay there ? 
 
 A. About a hour. 
 
 Q. Did you leave the right of way at all ^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far did you go east? 
 
 A. Towards the Buffalo Creek road. 
 
 Q. About how far ? 
 
 A. About half-way to their bridge. 
 
 Q. To the Buflalo Creek bridge ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; the Lake Shore bridge over the Buflalo 
 Creek. 
 
 Q. That is south? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 15] 1 Q. How far did you go towards the Buffalo Creek 
 road on tlie line? 
 
 A. On the Lackawanna line? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. I didn't go there at all. 
 
 Q. Did you go off the Lake Shore right of way ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; except on the Erie. 
 
 Q. How far did you go on the Erie ? 
 
 A. We walked about tiiat country for about an hour ; 
 I don't know how far. 
 
Haven xj 379 
 
 Q. You walked up and down that spot? 1513 
 
 A. No, sir ; we walked on the roads and highways, 
 out in this region of the country. 
 
 Q. Did you go over to Louisiana street? 
 
 A. Not as far as that. 
 
 Q. Or Hamburg street ? 
 
 A. Possibly, I went to the goose pond. 
 
 Q. That is as far as you went ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you go over to see the Lackawanna map ? 1513 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Clark ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Clark has not seen that to your knowledge? 
 
 A. Not tiiat I know of. 
 
 Q. How did you find the proposed points of crossing 
 out there ? 
 
 A. There was a stake or pole there, and we ran the 
 hne out by stakes on the other side, in the first place, by ^514 
 running out a Lackawanna line and finding it. 
 
 Q. At whose suggestion was it to move the lines to 
 this precise point to which you seek to move it? 
 
 A. Mr. Clark's. 
 
 Q. Did you have a talk witli liim about it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did that coincide with your ideas ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^^^^ 
 
 Q. Had you been upon the spot before you went 
 there with Mr. Clark? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How long did it take you to agree upon that 
 point? 
 
 A. Five minutes. 
 
 Q. Did you make any calculations ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you make any figures whatever ? 
 
380 
 
 1516 A. At that time, what kind of figures? 
 Q. Any kind of figures. 
 
 A. We didn't make any calculations. 
 
 Q. So you, and Mr. Clark, down there, decided what 
 you would do with this Lackawanna road in twenty 
 minutes without any figures ? 
 
 A. About an hour. 
 
 Q. Did you make the surveys yourself? 
 
 A. Personally, no, sir. 
 
 1517 Q. You don't know anything about their accuracy ^ 
 A. As accurately as any surveys made ; I suppose 
 
 they are. 
 
 Q. You sent your subordinates to do that, didn't you? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you decide iiow far you would make altera- 
 tions — to what extent east and west you would change 
 the line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 ^51** Q. Out there? 
 
 A. No, sir ; we did that in the office, on the map. 
 
 Q. Did you have any talk there about the clearance 
 of the bridge ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Not a word said on that subject ? 
 
 A. No, sir, 
 
 Q. Then you went back to the ofiice and took some 
 of this profile paper, and then you miscounted the lines, 
 and 80 got this elevation on five feet higher than you 
 wanted it? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I did it after the surveys were made. 
 
 Q. Does that same error extend all along through 
 that change of elevation — is there a mistake of five feet 
 through the three thousand feet ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where does it extend ? 
 
Haven x] Sijl 
 
 A. To tlie foot of the grade on the easterly side of 1520 
 the crossing. 
 
 Q. The easterly side of what crossing ? 
 
 A. The proposed Lackawanna crossing. It rijns out 
 to nothing at this point (witness indicates on the map). 
 
 Q. How far does the error run in the other direc- 
 tions ? 
 
 A. It runs to nothing at Louisiana street ; the five 
 feet does not go through ; the five feet is at this particular 
 point, the point of crossing where it is a level ground on 15!il 
 the top of the bridge ; it runs to nothing on Louisiana 
 street and a point a thousand feet away on the other. 
 
 Q. So that it is about three thousand feet that the mis- 
 take exists? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you tell me, looking at that large map — will 
 you explain to the commissioners where you would put 
 the piers on the proposed altered line of the over-head 
 bridge? (Witness shown map "Exhibit No. 3.") ^^^^ 
 
 A. I would locate the piers on the proposed altered 
 route at points marked M, N, O, P ; M\% on the west- 
 erly side of the right of way on the Lake Shore road, 
 and north of the Erie road, and O is on the westerly side 
 of the right of way of the Lake Shore road, south of the 
 Erie road. 
 
 Q. Howfar is it from if to iV? 
 
 A. One hundred feet. 
 
 Q. How far from 6» to P ? 
 
 A. One hundred and twenty-five feet. 
 
 Q. How far from JS to 0% 
 
 A. Two hundred and twenty-one feet ; I would make 
 an iron trestle from Nio 0% 
 
 Q. How far is P from the easterly track— from 
 Hart track ? 
 
 A. At right angles ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
a82 
 
 1524 A. Twenty-five feet. 
 
 Q. Your pier would take up most of that, wouldn't 
 it? 
 
 A. It would take off fifteen feet of it. 
 
 Q. What would be the size of these piers ? 
 
 A. About thirty feet wide. 
 
 Q. How thick ? 
 
 A. It depends upon the height somewhat ; they 
 usually make a pier four feet wide by thirty feet long 
 15^5 -fQj. .^ double-track bridge; that is in round numbers. 
 
 Q. Four feet at the top or bottom ? 
 
 A. Four feet at the top, and if increased, at the rate 
 of one foot in every twelve in height. 
 
 Q. That would make the pier how thick at the 
 bottom ? 
 
 A. If the ])ier was simply the support of the bridge 
 it would be six feet at the bottom ; if there is dirt back 
 _ of it, it wants to be thicker. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't the location of the pier at /^ prevent 
 the use by the Lake Shore ot the lot on the east side 
 of the transfer-house ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. If you made an embankment here you could not 
 get into it without making a pretty sharp curve there? 
 
 A. You could start out from here — yon could o-et 
 clear of this place with another set of tracks. 
 1527 Q- 'I'liey couldn't get in but one more set ? 
 
 A. They could start out what we call a leader a 
 
 branch from that. 
 
 Q. That would be a handy method of using this 
 property, wouldn't it ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Isn't that all marked in yellow there, too ? 
 A. That is a mistake. 
 
 Q. The Lake Shore don't own this property on the 
 south ? 
 
Haven x] 383 
 
 A. No, sir ; the Erie owns that. 1^38 
 
 Q. How far is it from P to the first Lake Shore 
 track ? 
 
 A. About twentj'-five feet at right angles. 
 
 Q. Suppose that you take the proposed Lackawanna 
 route with an over-head crossing; if you take the Lack- 
 awanna road, is there any more trouble in putting a pier 
 within twenty-five feet ot the track, than there is with 
 that altered route ? 
 
 A. It would interfere with the use of the ground very 1539 
 much. 
 
 Q. How is it on the other side — on the west side of 
 the Lake Shore track ; cannot you come within twenty- 
 five feet with a pier? 
 
 A. You could within twenty-five feet on the west 
 side. 
 
 Q. If you are going to build an over-head crossing, 
 you would put a pier about there (witness indicates) at 
 that point? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. We will mark that X? 
 
 A. All right, sir. 
 
 Q. On the other side marked twenty-five feet away 
 from the Hart track ? 
 
 A. About on the right of way line. 
 
 Q. And mark that _r? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 153^ 
 
 Q. How far would that be to the bridge ? 
 
 A. One hundred and sixty feet. 
 
 Q. How near could you put a pier to the Erie road 
 on the proposed line? 
 
 A. It might he down here, you couldn't get it in 
 liere (witness indicates.) 
 
 Q. Why couldn't you get it in here? 
 
 A. Tiiere are a great many tracks there. 
 
384 
 
 1533 Q. How long has the Erie Road owned this ground 
 here, to your knowledge ? 
 
 A. Two years. 
 
 Q. This right of way ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is since you have been connected with it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That right of way was bought by tlie BuflFalo and 
 Erie Road ? 
 1533 A. I suppose so. 
 
 Q. Forty years ago ? 
 
 A. I don't know how long. 
 
 Q. That has been in possession of the road for forty 
 years ? 
 
 A. Ever since the road was built. 
 
 Q. Suppose a pier was put up here and another one 
 in here, how long a bridge would it make over your Erie 
 tracks ? 
 
 A. Fifty feet. 
 
 Q. And give you ample room for ail the tracks you 
 have got now ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which is the greater distance, from the easterly 
 line of the Lake Shore right of way on the proposed 
 line to the point T' where you say a pier could be built, 
 built, or from if to P. ^ 
 , . ., „ A. Greater the distance from M to P. 
 
 Q. How much is it ? 
 
 A. Three hundred and tliirty-six feet. 
 
 Q. Then all those tracks can be clear on the proposed 
 line within one hundred and ten feet less than on the 
 present line ? 
 
 A. The present tracks can, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know who owns the triangle in white on 
 the north side of Sandusky street ? 
 
 A. I don't know for certain, but I think it belongs to 
 
 1534 
 
Haven x] 385 
 
 the Union Iron Works or the Union Iron Company; 1 1536 
 think it belongs to them. 
 
 Q. You speak of Sandusky street, you know nothing 
 about the rights of tlie public in that street ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You mean to say that it has not been worked as a 
 street at that point ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you make that map that was attached 
 to the petition in this case? ^^^'^ 
 
 A. It was made in my office. 
 
 Q. Did you make the Lake Shore maps, too ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did any of your employees ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who did make them ? 
 
 A. The Lake Shore men. 
 
 Q. Where did they make them? 
 
 A. Thej' made some of them in my office and some 
 of them up in a room in the Continental Hotel. 
 
 Q. Do you know who made them ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I don't know the names of the gentlemen. 
 
 Q. They took your map and copied it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How does that profile cut Louisiana street ? 
 
 A. At grade. 
 
 Q. At the grade of the street? ]^53g 
 
 A. Yes, at the grade of the street. 
 
 Q. Have you ever looked at the levels of Louisiana 
 street in the city engineer's office ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You know that is an important thoroughfare ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know where your subordinate obtained 
 his figures in regard to Louisiana street ? 
 
 A. The top of the pavement. 
 
386 
 
 1540 Q. Yon understood that he took it from observation? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who was it ? 
 A. Mr. Hammond. 
 
 Re-direct examinaiion, by Mr. Milburn : 
 
 Q. You have been asked some questions in regard to 
 a map; when Mr. Clark came down there you and he 
 examined that locality with a view to see just how you 
 
 1541 were affected by the proposed line of the Lackawanna? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; the two companies. 
 
 Q. Both you and Mr. Clark were perfectly familiar 
 with that location before that time ? 
 
 A. I was, and I think he was. 
 
 Q. Was there any conversation there- that day be- 
 tween you and Mr. Clark, or at any other time between 
 you and Mr. Clark, or any one that was present, to 
 make a change of route simply for the sake of these or 
 ■^ any other proceedings ? 
 
 A. The change of route of the Lackawanna ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. I don't understand what you mean. 
 
 Q. The question of Mr. Locke was as to a change 
 being made simply for the sake of getting up a proceed- 
 ing — in other words, a delay ; now was there any con- 
 versation of that kind between you and Mr. Clark or 
 . , .„ anybody present ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if you and Mr. Clark, while you 
 were present that day, were not considering during the 
 time that yon were there, what was a practicable line for 
 the Lackawanna, and that would interfere with you least? 
 
 A. That was the object of our being there and all we 
 talked about. 
 
 Q. Wasn't it then determined that the great objection 
 to their proposed line was that it was an unnecessary 
 
Haven .j 387 
 
 interference with the riglits of the Lake Shore and Erie 1544 
 at that point ; wasn't it talked between you and Mr. 
 Clark there, if the object was not to get a line that would 
 throw the point of crossing as far away as possible from 
 this group of tracks at their proposed crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and also to throw it off from the Lake 
 Siiore grounds. 
 
 Q. Wasn't it the question taken up, the question of 
 throwing the line further south — the objections to that 
 considered ? 1545 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What were the objections' tliat presented them- 
 selves to clearing this point more than is done at present 
 by the Lackawanna people ? 
 
 A. That would be impossible — to come into their line 
 on Ohio street without crossing a great many more tracks 
 down there than there were at this point belonging to 
 the two roads. 
 
 Q. In other words, if their line was taken from there '^'*" 
 in the first place you would strike the Union Iron 
 Works ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And its trestles leading to it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You would strike out in that direction the freight 
 yard, whatever it is, of the Erie Company ? 
 
 A. It is the east end of our Ottawa street tracks. 
 
 Q. Which form a yard there, don't they ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And then was that line determined upon as the 
 best line for all parties? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was this map which accompanies the petition 
 made from actual surveys ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
388 
 
 1548 Q. And did you stake out your proposed alterations 
 as the survey was made ? 
 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. Aud from the data of that survey the map was 
 prepared in your office? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now if the Lackawanna crosses here on its pro- 
 posed line, by an overhead crossing, that will just as in 
 the other cause a large amount of embankment or tres- 
 
 1549 tie work, as much on that line as on the other one? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Not the precise length but the same system of 
 embankments aud trestle works ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. And bridges ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And bridges of about the same span ? 
 A. Yes, sir, and bridges about the same span, prac- 
 
 1550 tically so, a few feet one way or the other. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Is it not possible to lower 
 the Lake Shore bridge over Buffalo Creek, and thereby 
 enable the grade of the Lake Shore and the Erie roads 
 to be lowered at the proposed crossings of the Lacka- 
 wanna railroad, and if not, why ? 
 
 A. Two years ago, in building the bridge of the Lake 
 Shore road, they purposely raised their grade so as to 
 
 1551 offer less obstruction to the ice that comes down the Buf- 
 falo River, at the breaking up of the river, raised it to its 
 present height. 
 
 Q. State whether in your opinion, the bridge couldn't 
 be properly lowered ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. Is there any difference in length 
 between the proposed line and the altered line ? 
 A. Practically, no. 
 
Griffen.J 389 
 
 Q. How much shorter is the proposed line than the 1553 
 altered Hue? 
 
 A. I will look over the figures. 
 
 Q. Have you figured it ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I have figured it but it don't come right. 
 
 Michael J. Gripfen, sworn for the petitioners, and 
 examined by Mr. McMillan, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Where do you reside ? 
 
 A. Cleveland, Ohio. ^^^^ 
 
 Q. You are one of Mr. Hawks' assistants ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You are in the engineer's department of the Lake 
 Shore and Michigan Southern Railway Company ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the engineer's de- 
 partment on that road? 
 
 A. From the fall of 1877. 
 
 Q. Do you know the point on tiie Lake Shore road 
 near the transfer-house called the Erie railroad crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And also the BuflTalo Creek crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you taken levels, and prepared a profile of 
 the line of the Lake Shore road between those two points 
 passing from Buflalo Creek bridge ? 
 _ A. Yes, sir. 1555 
 
 Presents paper to witness. 
 
 Q. Does that show a correct profile of the line of the 
 Lake Shore tracks ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From the Bufi"alo Creek crossing, passing over 
 Bufialo Creek bridge, down to the Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does that show the exact location of the bridge, 
 
 1554 
 
390 
 
 1 550 particularly where the rail passes, the under side of the 
 bridge, and also the rail? 
 
 A. Do you mean the bridge seat ? 
 
 Q. Yes. 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I want to state that that is live ieet and 
 ten inches below the base of the rail on thu bridge, it is 
 conceded that the bridge seat is the lowest projecting 
 part of the bridge. 
 
 Q. What is the distance from the Buffalo Creek Rail- 
 1557 road crossing to the bridge, the south end of the bridge I 
 
 A. Two thousand one hundred and twenty-six feet. 
 
 Q. What is the length of the bridge ? 
 
 A. Two hundred and ninety feet. 
 
 Q. There are two spans ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, from the noi'therlj side of the bridge to the 
 Erie crossing, what is that distance? 
 
 A. One thousand four hundred and twenty-three feet. 
 
 Q. What is the grade between the Buffalo Creek 
 crossing and the southerly side of the bridge ? 
 
 A. There are two grades ; the first grade is 1,003 feet 
 long, running from the Buffalo Creek crossing at seven 
 and thirteen-hundredths feet per mile ; the next grade is 
 1123 feet long. 
 
 Q. That runs to the bridge ? 
 
 A. That runs to the bridge ; that is a grade of twenty- 
 1559 ^'^^^ ^^^ twenty-nine hundredths feet per mile. 
 
 Q. Then the grade north of the bridge extending to 
 the Erie crossing, what is that ? 
 
 A. There are two grades there, also. 
 
 Q. Give us the first one, from the bridge extending 
 northerly, the distance of that. 
 
 A. That is 8,887 feet, a grade of twenty-eight feet per 
 mile ; from that point to the Erie crossing it is 536 feet, 
 with a grade of seventeen and fifty-three hundredths 
 feet per mile. 
 
GrifFen.] 391 
 
 Q. These figures on the top indicate what — on the 1560 
 top of this profile ? 
 
 A. They indicate the elevation of the rail at the 
 points marked directl}- under them. 
 
 Q. The elevation of the rail above what, the base line ? 
 
 A. Above the base, and that base is the old base on 
 the railroad, when they made a railroad from Buffalo to 
 Erie. 
 
 Q. The tigures on the left — vertical figures — what do 
 they indicate ? 1561 
 
 A. They indicate the scale that it is drawn to — the 
 vertical scale. 
 
 Q. What is that scale? 
 
 A. Each of those lines is six inches — the- vertical lines 
 are six inches. 
 
 Q. And the figures are feet ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the figures at the bottom of the map, what 
 , 1563 
 
 are they 5 
 
 A. Each of those lines represent fifty feet. 
 
 Q. Each line represents fifty feet ? 
 
 A. Each line represents fifty feet, yes, sir, each verti- 
 tical line. 
 
 Q. Fifty feet of horizontal distance, I suppose you 
 mean. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know when this bridge over Buffalo Creek „„ 
 was put up ? 
 
 A. In the summer of 1878. 
 
 Q. Was the old bridge removed at that time ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much higher is this bridge than the bridge, 
 that was formerly there ? 
 
 A. I think the rail is two feet higher than the old 
 bridge, but I am not positive as to that ; that is my im- 
 pression that it is two feet higher. 
 
392 
 
 1564 Q. By Com. McAlpine : How does the bridge scat 
 compare ? 
 
 A. I don't know, sir. 
 
 Q. By Mr. McMillan, resuming : What was tlie old 
 bridge that was there — was it a wooden Howe truss 
 bridge ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, a wooden Howe truss bridge. 
 
 Q. Did it rest on a column, the same as that in the 
 center of the river ? 
 1665 A. I don't know ; I don't know mnch about it. 
 
 Q. Do you recall whether the base of the bridge was 
 raised when this new bridge was built, or not 'i 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You don't recall that fact ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you recall any provision being made in the 
 construction of this bridge to leave greater space for the 
 ice and Hood-wood that came down that creek ? 
 1560 A. That was what I understood the raise of the 
 bridge was for — that the raise was for that purpose. 
 
 Mr, McMillan offered in evidence the protile i-eferred 
 to, and asked to have it marked " Petitioner's Exhibit 
 No. 5." Eeceived and marked " Petitioner's Exhibit 
 No. 5." 
 
 6Vo5s examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. How many trusses has this bridge? 
 
 1567 A. I don't know anything about how many trusses. 
 
 Q. By Com. McAlpine : It is a double track bridge ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It has a truss on each side only — that is the ques- 
 tion — two trusses ? 
 
 A. Well, it is two bri:dges. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Locke, resuming : Two trusses ? 
 A. There is no middle truss ; it is two bridges. 
 
 Q. When did you come from Cleveland I 
 A. I came up yesterday morning. 
 
Haven.] 393 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Payne come with you? 1568 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see Mr. Payne here ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Charles Payne ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is he the general superintendent of the Lake 
 Shore ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has he returned ? 1^^^ 
 
 A. I don't know anything about it. 
 
 William A. Haven, recalled for the petitioners, and 
 examined by Mr. Milburn, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. What is this paper I present to you ? 
 
 A. A profile of the main freight track of the New 
 York, Lake Erie and Western railroad from the Abbott 
 road to Hamburgh street, crossing the Lake Shore road. 1570 
 
 Q. That was made yourself? 
 
 A. Made under my supervision ; I made a part of it ; 
 I guess I made it ; there seems to be some of my figures 
 there ; it was a year ago. 
 
 Mr. Milburn offered in evidence the profile referred to ; 
 received and marked " Petitioners' Exhibit No. 6." 
 
 Q. What is the lower black line ; what does it repre- 
 sent? 
 
 A. It represents the top of the tie of the Erie track. 1571 
 
 Q. Between those two points ? 
 
 A. Between those two points. 
 
 Q. What do the pencil lines represent drawn above? 
 
 A. It represents where we propose to change the 
 grade, and take out the sags on each side of the Lake 
 Shore road ; the lines that are drawn to the top of the 
 black grade of the present grade, simply show where we 
 take out the sag of the track as it is ; the upper lines are 
 lines that are ojie foot gJiave them ; to show an improve- 
 
394 
 
 1573 ment of the gi-ade, supposing the track was raised at that 
 point one foot to conform to Mr. Clark's wishes ; sup- 
 posing Mr. Clark raised this track one foot, the red line 
 shows the line of the road, the alignment of the New 
 York, Lake Erie and Western, and the blue lines cross- 
 ing it show the Lake Shore tracks crossing it. 
 
 Q. The red line represents what? 
 
 A. The red line represents the alignment of the track 
 of the New York, Lake Erie and Western Railroad 
 , 1573 drawn — not exactly because the curves are not shown 
 in it. 
 
 Q. Simply to show its general direction ? 
 
 A. Hardly its general direction ; it simply shows — 
 get on the same scale with the profile, and directly oppo- 
 site to it the points of the frogs and the crossing points, 
 showing their angle with the present track ; it does not 
 show any of the curves that are in the present track. 
 
 By Mr. Greene : Q. It is a line supposed to represent 
 the track of the Erie road without any reference to 
 curves or grades? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the lines intersecting or crossing it indicate 
 the railroad has crossing, frogs and switches ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; the points of frogs are all indicated by 
 the writing above it. 
 
 Q. Now, when was this profile made? 
 1 c~g A. It was made in August, 1880. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. When were these 
 pencil lines drawn above the black line of the profile ? 
 
 Q. About the same time ; it might have been prob- 
 ably in September, at the time Mr. Clark and Mr. 
 Taylor and myself had our meeting there. 
 
 Q. You say the black line of this lower profile repre- 
 sents the present track of the Eri« Railway Company ? 
 
 A. The profile of the track; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The profile is a profile of the present track of the 
 
Haven.] 395 
 
 Erie Railway Company, and the pencil lines above those 1576 
 were made to represent the contemplated unprovements 
 of the grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; exactly. 
 
 Q. And the upper pencil line shows that at the point 
 of crossing the Lake Shoi-e road, one of the proposals 
 was to change the grade of that road one foot ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Please make a clear statement of the reason for 
 lifting the grade of the Lake Shore, at that point of in- 1577 
 tersection, one foot for proposing to lift it ? 
 
 A. To enable the Lake Shore to run a uniform grade 
 from the end of their bridge, over the Bufltalo Creek, to 
 the south end of the yard. 
 
 Q. Being switch number three? 
 
 A. About switch number three. 
 
 Q. On map number three? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To give that uniform grade from the bridge to '^^'° 
 that point, the track at the point of intersection of the 
 Lake Shore tracks by the Erie railway would be raised 
 one foot ? 
 
 A. In that neighborhood ; in the neighborhood of a 
 foot, yes, sir, it might be more or less. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the height of a refrigerator 
 car is ? 
 
 A. Not from measurement. 
 
 Q. Haven't you a judgment about the matter; don't 
 you know, generally ? 
 
 A. About thirteen and one-half feet. 
 
 By Commissioner McAlpine : Q. What is the height 
 of a palace freight car ? 
 
 A. A palace stock car ? 
 
 By Commissioner McAlpine : Q A palace stock car? 
 
 A. About fourteen feet, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that the highest car of all ? - 
 
396 
 
 1580 A. That is the highest, as I understand it. 
 Q. Over those cars employees have to pass ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are these cars being extensively introduced upon 
 the roads ? 
 
 A. They are about being introduced. 
 
 Q. And there are some in use to-day ? 
 
 A. I don't know of my knowledge about that. 
 
 Q. Have you not seen them on the tracks ? 
 
 1581 A. I have seen them in New York, I have seen them 
 on our tracks here. 
 
 Q. You have seen them in New York in what way 
 being built or what? 
 
 A. No, sir, in the Central yard. 
 
 Q. Does the employee pass over the top of those cars 
 just the same as he does of the top of the other trains — 
 will he do so ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You know that refrigerator cars, thirteen and one- 
 half feet high, are in use now ? 
 
 A. They are in use, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of their running on the Lake 
 Shore? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I think you say it was your intention in your pro- 
 file to give a clear headway at the Lake Shore crossing 
 -. „Q„ of twenty feet ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Cross-examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Have you heard the question mooted of changing 
 your Erie international trestle over the Erie Railway at 
 East Buffalo? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Elevating it still higher ? 
 
Haven xj 397 
 
 A. I don't know what the arrangement is ; that is a 1584 
 matter between Mr. Chanute and Mr. Fisher. 
 
 Q. You don't know whether there is any talk of ele- 
 vating it or not ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That is nineteen feet in the clear ; do you know 
 of any of your bridges between Corning and HornellsvilJe 
 — do you know anj'thing about those bridges there ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Haven't you ever heard that there are bridges 1585 
 there not sixteen feet in the clear ? 
 
 A. I have not heard that. 
 
 Q. What do you have posts down there with an arm 
 projecting over the tracks, and ropes dangling down 
 from the arm ? — do you know what is the object of any 
 such thing as that, about four hundred feet on each side 
 of the bridges? 
 
 A. I don't know anything about that, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see such a device as that on a rail- 
 road? 
 
 A. A great many of them. 
 
 Q. What were they ?" 
 
 A. I think to notify a man who was on top of a car 
 that there was a bridge coming. 
 
 Q. That he must get out of the way ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that he must get out. 
 
 Q. A low bridge. ^gg^ 
 
 A. A low bridge. 
 
 Q. It would not be necessary to have a low bridge 
 sign there unless you had a low bridge ? 
 
 A. Probably not. 
 
 Q. If you saw those posts up with ropes dangling 
 down, you would have a suspicion that there was a bridge 
 there under nineteen feet in clearance, wouldn't you. 
 
 A. Very naturally. 
 
 Q. You would, think that probably there was a bridge 
 
 1586 
 
398 
 
 1588 there not over seventeen feet in the clear, would you 
 not? 
 
 A. A bridge low enough to hit a man's head, stand- 
 ing np on top of a car. 
 
 Q. That would be about seventeen feet, if thej were 
 put there before the refrigerator cars were invented or 
 palace stock cars, wouldn't they ? 
 
 A. I don't know what the height uf bridges was 
 twenty or thirty years ago. 
 
 1589 Q. Do you know what the clearance of the Bergen 
 tunnel is three feet from the center — the Erie tunnel at 
 Jersey City ? 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Ebenezee Catlin, sworn for the petitioners and exam- 
 ined by Mr. Greene, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. You reside in Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your business ? 
 
 A. Extra yardmaster of Lake Shore road. 
 
 Q. What place are you employed ? 
 
 A. In the city yard of the Lake Shore. 
 
 Q. Is that the yard that has been mentioned here 
 that runs down near Sandusky street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Near this crossing ? 
 1591 A. Yes, sir ; it reaches all the way from Louisiana 
 street to the Buffalo street crossing, the first switch west 
 of the Buffalo crossing of our road. 
 
 Q. How long have you been so engaged there? 
 
 A. A little over a year, in the yard. 
 
 Q. What are your duties ? 
 
 A. Part of the time making up west-bound trains, 
 and shifting all the cars that come into our yard. 
 
 Q. By shifting all the cars that come into your yard. 
 
 1590 
 
Catlin.J 399 
 
 do you mean suporintonding the distribution of cars to 1593 
 various points on the arrival of freight ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And also collecting together and putting into 
 trains outward-bound cars ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where is this work of distributing and making up 
 trains, and the switching necessary to do that work, done ? 
 
 A. The trains that arrive from the east, most of the 
 switching is done right over tiiis Erie crossing and the 1393 
 proposed crossing of the Lackawanna road; there is 
 about half or a little over of the west-bound cars that 
 arc shifted over these two crossings — about half of the 
 west-bound cars, that is, that leave the city yard. 
 
 Q. They are switched over there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many times on an average would each car 
 pass over that crossing in the switching process — the 
 western-bound cars ? 
 
 A. I should think on the average that all west-bound 
 cars that are made up in the city yard would- pass over 
 that crossing once — all west-bound cars. 
 
 Q. They would pass over it once when they went 
 out? 
 
 A. I am not talking of when they went out, I am 
 talking of shifting of the train. 
 
 Q. And getting it ready to leave ? ^^^^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On an average they would all go over once ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In other words, you think that at least half of the 
 cars go over it and back in the process of making up 
 trains ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How in reference to the business with the Erie, 
 the transfer business? 
 
400 
 
 ISOe A. The transfer business has to be all pulled over 
 those two crossings and the through business with the 
 Erie, that is the through cars — 
 
 Q. First, the transfer business — how many times 
 would each car pass over the proposed crossing on an 
 average ? 
 
 A. They have to go over the proposed crossing any 
 way four times, and it is according to the number of 
 shifts there is of the string of cars. Sometimes we will 
 
 1597 take twenty-five cars to be delivered on the Hart track 
 which is this southeast track. 
 
 Q. Thej' necessarily would pass over the proposed 
 crossing four times, and as many more as there has to be 
 shifting of the train, in order to sort out cars ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. About how many additional times would you 
 think it would average that the cars transferred would 
 have to go over, resulting from the necessity of sorting 
 
 1598 them out from the train. How many times in addition 
 to the four times, on an average ? 
 
 A. Well, in transfer freight I should take about six 
 or seven times, on an average. 
 
 Q. That is, all told, including the four times ? 
 
 A. All told ; it miglit be more than that ; that is a 
 low estimate. 
 
 Q. This work there during the last year was done 
 under your personal observation and supervision, was it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I was one of them. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to the occupying of the tar- 
 get, as we call it here ; what portion of the time it was 
 occupied during last year ? 
 
 A. By our trains? 
 
 Q. By both companies, put it all together ? 
 
 A. I should think it was occupied most of the time. 
 
 Q. By most of the time do you mean 
 
 A. About eight-tenths of the time. 
 
Catlin.J 401 
 
 Q. State whether or not it was very frequently the 1600 
 case that when the Erie Company had the target your 
 trains incoming and outgoing were delayed, and your 
 work of shifting and switching necessarily suspended ? 
 
 A. It was very often the case. 
 
 Q. Very often the case ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For a period of what length? 
 
 A. I have seen that crossing blocked forty-five min- 
 utes by the Erie. I have timed it myself that time. 1601 
 
 Q. That is, to suspend operations entirely upon your 
 track for that time ? 
 
 A. Entirely ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A stoppage there of anywhere of from five min- 
 utes to forty-five would it not necessarily result in a prac- 
 tical suspension of the operation of business in the yard ? 
 
 A. It would at this west end of our yard ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Would it also operate, say a delay of fifteen min- 
 utes, ten or fifteen minutes on outward-bound trains; • 
 state whether or not it would have an eflfect in detaining 
 other trains at other points of the line ? 
 
 A. It would somewhat, especially in foggy or stormy 
 weather, to a considerable extent. 
 
 Q. Give us an idea, if you can, about to what extent 
 yoiT have foggy weather at this point, and during what 
 portions of the year ? 
 
 A. Well, we have more foggy weather in the fall than 
 we do in the spring, I should say about twice as much 
 and maybe more. 
 
 Q. About what proportion of the time and in what 
 months do you have fog ? 
 
 A. I don't know as I could really answer that 
 question. 
 
 Q. You have kept no record of it ? 
 
 A. I have kept no record of it. 
 
 Q. State whether or not you have fogs and storms 
 
402 
 
 1604 there that render it difficult to operate your business, 
 more difficult than in clear weather ? 
 
 A. We do, sir, very often, especially at this point, 
 more than any other point of the road between Buffalo 
 •and Erie. 
 
 Q. They make fogs there in that vicinity ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I believe the lake is the cause of a good 
 deal of it. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. Do the fogs you have at that 
 
 1605 point extend into the chyl 
 
 A. I don't think all of them do, no, sir. It has often 
 been the case where we have had fogs there and I have 
 come to dinner at the corner of Michigan and North 
 Division street and there would be no fog there at all. 
 
 Q. Has the business of the Erie over this crossing 
 during the last week or ten days been up to the average, 
 or below or above it ? 
 
 A. Below it, sir. 
 
 1606 Q. Considerably below it, quite materially ? 
 A. I should think it was ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you say, from your practical knowledge 
 of the opera.tions carried on there, and the business, 
 whether another double track crossing at the line pro- 
 posed, to what extent it would interfere with the trans- 
 action of the business now necessarily carried on at that 
 point by the Erie and Lake Shore companies ? 
 
 A. Well, I should think if on the proposed crossing 
 
 IfiO'" r r a 
 
 .they done the same business the Erie are doing at pres- 
 ent, it would be about half the time that we could not 
 do our business properly, that we would be blocked up 
 in the yard on account of that. 
 
 Q. You think it would be impossible to transact the 
 business without very grievous delays and detentions? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I don't think we could do it. 
 
 Q. You do not think it would bo done? 
 
 A. No, sir, not in the position our yard is in. 
 
Catlin x] 403 
 
 Q. What do you say about having to cut trains at 1608 
 tliese various streets, and about how frequently in conse- 
 quence of detention to the target ? 
 
 A. Taking our switching up liere that we have to do, 
 and the business that is done on the Erie road, I should 
 think very nearly one-third of the trains have got to cut 
 at Elk and Fnlton streets. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. How long is the yard from the Erie crossing to its 1699 
 extreme northerly terminus? 
 
 A. I couldn't say as to that, I never measured it. 
 
 Q. Twenty-five hundred feet ? 
 
 A. Our yard really reaches to the depot, to the Cen- 
 tral depot. 
 
 Q. It would be four thousand feet ? 
 
 A. I should call it a mile, I think it is just about that. 
 
 Q. I suppose that switch engines pull around a good 
 many cars in that yard, that .do not have to cross the ^^^^ 
 present Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. Thoy do some, certainly. 
 
 Q. A good many, don't they ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Speaking about these fogs, do these fogs extend 
 as far as Central Wharf? 
 
 A. I couldn't say as to that, it is very seldom I go 
 
 *'^®''^" 1611 
 
 Q. As far as Michigan street ? 
 
 A. They do sometimes, certainly. 
 
 Q. About what proportion of the days in the fall are 
 foggy down there ? 
 
 A. I couldn't say as to that, I never kept any account 
 whatever. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea at all ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Cannot you give as much of an estimate as you did 
 
404 
 
 1612 on the jiumber of cars that go twice or three times over 
 that crossing ? 
 
 A. No, sir, it is not my business to keep track of 
 fogs. 
 
 Q. Will you testify that in any one year there have 
 been fogs down there on ten diflferent days? 
 
 A. In any one year? 
 
 Q. Yes ? 
 
 A. I never kept track of it, but I think there are 
 
 1613 more than ten days, I have seen it more than ten days in 
 a year. 
 
 Q. Running right through the day ? 
 
 A. Not all day, no, sir, more in the morning, I think, 
 than any other time. 
 
 Q. Are there any. times when that crossing is not oc- 
 cupied by either the Erie or the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Intervals of five or ten minutes sometimes? 
 ^^^^ A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Half an hour, I mean the present Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. Well, I never timed it to see how long, but I 
 should judge that once in a while it was as long as thirty 
 minutes. 
 
 Q. Five minute intervals quite frequent? 
 
 A. Yes, five minutes, that is when we did not have 
 cars right on the crossing, but if we were switching up 
 j„. . here on the Diamond or Hart track, I would claim that 
 we had no crossing which we are liable to keep cars, 
 especially our crippled cars have to go down in the yard 
 to be repaired. 
 
 Q. The Erie crossing would interfere more with the 
 switching in the yard than the proposed Lackawanna 
 crossing, wouldn't it, inasmuch as the Lackawanna cross- 
 ing is further towards the bridge. 
 
 A. Very little difierence. 
 
 Q. Very little ? 
 
Catlin.] 405 
 
 A. Very little. 1616 
 
 Q. Any difference that you can see ? 
 
 A. All the difference there would be, if there was an 
 east-bound train that came down into our yard, and 
 they had one or two cars to leave on the rear end, that 
 is right ahead of the caboose, they might get up far 
 enough to get switched to leave them on another track ; 
 that would be all the difference ; it is very seldom it 
 happens in that way with an east-bound train. 
 
 Q. Only occasionally ? 1^^' 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. So that would the Lackawanna crossing be worse 
 than the Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. No, I don't think it would be any worse. 
 
 Re-direct examination, by Mr. Greene : 
 
 Q. ■ The Lackawanna would be worse on the Hart 
 track, Diamond crossing and new grain track, and the 
 Erie platform track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, but we were talking about shifting the 
 train here. 
 
 Q. The Lackawanna crossing would be worse west 
 of those tracks than the Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, they would have to be moved, as I un- 
 derstand it. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. Does the Lake Shore do its shift- 
 ing of cars — I don't mean with the Erie road— at any ^^^^ 
 other point than this ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; if they have cars to leave on the head 
 end of the train, down at the lower end of the yard, at 
 the round-house, the road-engine shifts them. 
 
 Q. How far from the point where the Erie road 
 crosses ? 
 
 A. I don't know exactly how far it is; No. 1 track 
 next to the main track will hold fifty cars ; the other 
 tracks will hold about five cars less, all the way back to 
 
406 
 
 1620 the seventh track ; that is all we have ; there is seven 
 tracks connected at both ends. 
 
 Q. Would it be jjractieable to do all that kind of 
 work in the yard if it were necessary to do it ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; it conld not be done down there ; our 
 round-house is stationed down there, and our engines 
 come out from the round-house, and they all have to 
 cross to the coal-docks, and there are continually 
 engines passing back and forth ; and our cabooses are 
 l^'^l there; they leave them there as they come in, and take 
 them from there to go out. 
 
 Q. Assuming that this Lackawanna road should go 
 across that bridge as proposed, do you know of any 
 scheme of rearranging the Lake Shore tracks by which 
 the business could be conveniently done ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I do not. 
 
 Q. Have you ever thought about the subject? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have spent a good deal of thought ; I 
 1622 , , 
 
 am one of the men in the yard. 
 
 By Com. Mc Alpine: Q. Could those tracks be shifted 
 and rearranged so as to do all of the switching without 
 crossing the Lackawanna track; in other words, cutting 
 off this end and putting this track in at some point fur- 
 ther north that would give you the opportunity to do all 
 of your switching without crossing the Lackawanna pro- 
 posed crossing? 
 2g23 ^- I don't think they could, sir ; there is not room 
 enough down here, and our repair shop — our car-shop, 
 and. where all of our cars are repaired, is right in here. 
 
 Q. Near Elk street ? 
 
 A. Just below Elk. 
 
 Q. By Com. McAlpine : Suppose all of these tracks 
 should be taken up and extended this way so far as you 
 could extend them to the northward, far enough to en- 
 able you to do the business as well as you are doing it, 
 now, this movement northward being far enough to give 
 
Catlin.J 407 
 
 you switching distance from tlie end here to the Lacka- 1634 
 wanna proposed crossing? 
 
 A. No, sir; they couldn't; they are extended just as 
 tar north as they can be. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q.- It goes to the depot ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; thej^ go to the round-house and the 
 rolling mill ; and the Erie road crosses us just beyond 
 that point where all their passenger trains cross our 
 compromised track where the freight is delivered to the 
 Central yard, and the stock-yard ; all the stock has to go 1625 
 that way, so that we cannot extend our tracks. 
 
 By Cora. McAlpine: Q. How far is it from that cross- 
 ing, the present crossing of the two roads, to the Erie 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. 1 cannot say how far it is ; I never measured it. 
 
 Q. Can you approximate it? 
 
 A. I think it is about three thousand feet; our 
 round-house stands iust below these yards, right in a 
 hue with our yard. 
 
 Q. In a line of the yard ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say one side of it? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Greene resuming : Q. The northerly end of the 
 yard so called would be at Perry street ? 
 
 A. Where trains come in ? 
 
 Q. Youi- yards commences at about Mackinaw street? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Between Mackinaw and Sandusky, and runs down 
 here to about Perry, and there the tracks come in to- 
 gether ? 
 
 A. I should call it Louisiana street; all of our town 
 business is done here. 
 
 Q. One moment — about the yard, through the center 
 of this yard, you have how many tracks ? 
 
 A. We have ten tracks, counting the main tracks. 
 
408 
 
 1C38 Q. When you get down, before you get to Scott 
 street, yon are reduced to how many tracks ? 
 
 A. Four tracks. 
 
 Q. Between Perry and Scott street is your system of 
 switches, whereby you run up to the car-shops ? 
 
 A. Right at Perry street ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And at Perry street your yard is contracted, is 
 it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; down to Scott street, and a little below 
 1629 Scott street. 
 
 Q. So that you think it would be impossible to so 
 arrange the tracks northward of the Erie crossing so 
 as to extend the yard and transact the necessary busi- 
 ness ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I do; there is no possible way ; if there 
 was it would have to be all on a curve. 
 
 Q. It would interfere with the present arrangement 
 of these tracks, and the structures, car-shops and engine- 
 house, round-house and engine-sheds ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It would involve an entire change of the plan and 
 operation for their business here in the city ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 He-cross examinatioji, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. The Lake Shore Company owns all the land 
 within the yellow margins on this map, don't it ? 
 1631 A. I could not swear as to that. 
 
 Q. I suppose yon own six hundred and fifty feet 
 and nine inches on Elk street, don't you ? 
 
 A. I could not say as to that, I am sure, how much 
 we own. 
 
 Q. This map shows it, don't it ? 
 
 A. I could not say anything about it. 
 
 Q. Don't you understand that the Lake Shore land 
 runs clear to Van Eensselaer street, between Elk and 
 Fulton ? 
 
Catlin x] 409 
 
 A. I know they occupy that. 1632 
 
 Q. They occupy the land clear to Van Rensselaer 
 street, between Fulton and Elk streets ? 
 
 A. The first street back of our yard. 
 
 Q. They own all between their main tracks and the 
 Abbott road, don't they, or they occupy it and the Erie 
 transfer-house ? 
 
 A. They don't occupy it ; I don't know whether they 
 own it or not. 
 
 Q. It is marked here, "Lake Shore and Michigan 1633 
 Southern Railway," is it not, within the colored lines ? 
 
 A. It appears so by the map. 
 
 Q. Couldn't the transfer of freight to the Erie road 
 be made at any other point by laying tracks, assuming 
 that the Lake Shore road owns all the land shown by 
 this map to belong to it ? 
 
 A. I don't know as I really understand your question. 
 
 Q. Couldn't you transfer in here? (Counsel indi- 
 
 .. ^ 1634 
 
 catmg.) 
 
 A. No, sir, you couldn't. 
 
 Q. You could not transfer at any other point except 
 this precise point ? 
 
 A. I don't think you could, unless you transferred 
 way up here somewhere, and crossed Buffalo Creek with 
 bridges and trusses some way. 
 
 By Mr. Greene ? Q. Then you would have to cross 
 the Lackawanna again ? „ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Locke, resuming: Q. Could not tracks be 
 laid between Fulton street and the present crossing suffi- 
 cient in number to enable you to do this shifting upon 
 that ground ? 
 
 A. They would not be long enough to do any 
 shifting. 
 
 Q. How long would they be 'i 
 
 A. I could not say as to that ; this number " 7," as 
 
410 
 
 1636 we call it, would hold about twenty or twenty-five cars 
 in all. 
 
 Q. Yon could put in twenty tracks there that would 
 hold twenty or twenty-five cars apiece, couldn't you? 
 
 A. We might by crossing the Erie and the Lacka- 
 wanna road. 
 
 Q. Could you not without crossing the Erie? 
 
 A. No, sii-, we could not. 
 
 Q. Can you not multiply those tracks almost in- 
 
 1637 definitely? 
 
 A. There is not room enough for the switches here, I 
 don't think, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know when this land, marked in yellow 
 on this map, was acquired ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you been with the road? 
 
 A. A little over thirteen years. 
 
 Q. During all that time has the block between Elk 
 street and Fulton street and Van Rensselaer street been 
 occupied by the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. I don't know, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any recollection when they commenced 
 to occupy it ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are any trains made up at East Buffalo which go 
 directly through without further additions or sub- 
 jggg tractions? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What proportion of your freight delivered from 
 the Central road is made up at East Buffalo into trains? 
 
 A. And delivered at the Central road ? 
 
 Q. Delivered from the Central road at East BufiTalo, 
 and is there made up into trains before it gets into this 
 yard? 
 
Catlin x] 411 
 
 A. Very near all of it, ready to go west, yon mean ? 1640 
 
 Q. Yes? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So tliat nearly all your west-bonnd, tliiough 
 freight which yon receive from the Central road is not 
 reqnired to be shifted in your yard ? 
 
 A. Not in this yard. 
 
 Q. It is all done at East Buffalo? 
 
 A. All except cars to weigh, and some crippled cars, 
 and air local, as we call them, between Erie and Buffalo. 1^41 
 
 Q. The Now York Central is your main connection, 
 is it not? 
 
 A. We get more cars from that company than from 
 any other road. 
 
 Q. By a very large percentage, don't you ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think we do. 
 
 Q. Three or four times as many as you do from the 
 Erie? 
 
 A. 1 could not say just how many times. 
 
 Q. Do any of your trains consist of cars entirely des- 
 tined for the east via the New York Central? 
 
 A. Sometimes. 
 
 Q. That is, pulled right straight through ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it comes down in this yard and stops, 
 and the crossings are cut, and there is a man who in- 
 spects the bills, and he says whether they can all go lo 
 the Central road or not, and if not, he chalks them. 
 There is an engine gets behind them, and if they come 
 up on number one they get behind them and shove 
 them around the Compromise. 
 
 Q. You call that freight- track around town the Com- 
 promise — the freight cars to East Buffalo is the Compro- 
 mise? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that a through-track road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 1643 
 
 1643 
 
412 
 
 1644 Q, All your east-bound freight by the New York 
 Central has to cross that ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All west-bound freight from the New York Cen- 
 tral has to cross it, of coarse ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; well, there might be ten or fifteen cars 
 in the coarse of .the year that we would receive at Ham- 
 burgh. 
 
 Q. The main passenger lines of the Erie Eailway 
 
 1645 cross those Compromise tracks at grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia cross 
 those tracks at grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At what angle ? 
 
 A. Tlie Erie crosses it at right angles, and I don't 
 know what the angle is of the other. 
 
 John S. Hammokd, sworn for the petitioners and ex- 
 amined by Mr. Milburn, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. You are the freight agent of the Erie at Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And for the entire city you have charge of the 
 freight department ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have been connected with that department 
 1G47 for how many years? 
 
 A. About ten years. 
 
 Q. Now, all business coming into the city of Buffalo 
 on the Erie Railway, part of its through business goes 
 by its Niagara Falls line, and the Erie International 
 Railway to Black Rock ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Its city business and its lake business going over 
 its main line and then over its freight line, crossing the 
 
Hammond.J 413 
 
 Lake Shore tracks at that point in question to its city 1648 
 freight-house on Ohio street, and to the lake ? 
 
 A. A portion of the city business does not go there, 
 it is divided between this Exchange warehouse and the 
 Ohio street liouse. 
 
 Q. It is divided up between the warehouse on Ex- 
 change street and this one on Ohio street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There is a large part of your city freight business 
 done at this Ohio street freight-house ? 1649 
 
 A. There is quite a large portion of it ; we handle 
 all we can there ; it is divided between Exchange or de- 
 livery place and the Ohio street. 
 
 Q. All your coal and lake business comes over this 
 freight line that crosses the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. All that is delivered there comes over that line. 
 
 Q. You are well acquainted with this locality — the 
 transfer locality — between the Lake Shore and the 
 Erie? 1650 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At the Lake Shore crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At that point the freight line of the Erie Railway 
 crosses the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Eeferriiig to " Exhibit 4," this is the Erie city 
 freight-house on Ohio'street? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; whatever wc handle for Buffalo town 
 and for lake delivery. 
 
 Q. East and west-bound ? 
 
 A. East and west-bound. 
 
 Q. Is done at this freight-house on Ohio street? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now what effects do you experience in your 
 business at the present time from this Lake Shore cross- 
 ing? 
 
414 
 
 1653 A. Well, we experience delays in getting our trains 
 backward and forward. 
 
 Q. Will you explain how those delays, or some of 
 the ways in which those effect the doing of your business 
 in and about your freight-house there? 
 
 A. Well, if we should start to send a train from Ohio 
 street to East Buffalo to be disposed of, in a great many 
 cases we are stopped at that crossing, and have to wait 
 until the Lake Shore trains get out of the way ; they 
 1653 hold us sometimes two or three minutes, or half an hour, 
 as the case may be. 
 
 Q. The effect of that delay is not only to hold your 
 train there, but also to hold your engine there with 
 which your freight business is done ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If in delays caused to one train by the Lake 
 Shore people having the crossing on the other side of the 
 crossing, other of your trains also get delayed, and this 
 
 "] pet <j • 
 
 double delay on each side in itself causes an additional 
 delay by having to switch, etc. 
 
 A. Yes, sir, we have frequently trains coming in 
 both directions, and are detained by these Lake Shore 
 trains passing backwards and forwards, and when we 
 are ready to go ahead with one train the other would 
 have to switch out and get out of the way, because, you 
 might say, the trains accumulated at that crossing. 
 .„_. Q. And you have to switch so as to get rid of that 
 accumulation of trains at the crossing, and allow the 
 various trains to pass on the ways in which they are 
 going ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is it. 
 
 Q. Now, do these delays hinder you in getting to 
 your freight-house the trains that have to come there to 
 unload, and getting away froin your freight-house the 
 trains after they are loaded and ready to start ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; very much, sometimes; we have to de- 
 
Hammond.] 415 
 
 peiid on our getting cars in to get tliem unloaded, and 1656 
 getting them in empty to load them up, and these de- 
 tentions all look to that, on the unloading and the load- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. In other words, the moment you have got your 
 cars loaded to carry on your business properly, you have 
 to get rid of them as soon as possible to get fresh cars 
 in? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And every delay that you have at the Lake Shore, 1657 
 or the general thing is that the delays that you have at 
 the Lake Shore crossing block your business at the 
 freight-house ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does also the detention of motive power, your 
 engines, prevent you from getting out of the engine in 
 the movement of cars the work which it would otherwise 
 do? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it does. ^^^^ 
 
 Q. So that one effect at the crossing is that you 
 either have to experience very considerable delays, or 
 keep on increasing your motive power ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, in seasons you are very much, not only 
 
 your road but the other roads are very seriously blocked 
 
 with cars, are they not, with freight business ? 
 
 A. Sometimes. .,„,„ 
 
 , Iboa 
 Q. Is the delay at the crossmg of the Lake Shore 
 
 road one of the elements which in such times as that 
 seriously aggravate the movement of your trains and the 
 doing of your business ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; through the yard ; those are all switch- 
 ing trains ; they are not regular trains at all ; they are 
 trains made up to go backwards and forwards from the 
 Ohio street warehouses to East Buffalo, say, or another 
 distributing point. 
 
416 
 
 1C60 Q. Then the delay at the Lake Sliore crossing may 
 not only interfere with your business at the freight-house, 
 but does it not also interfere with the making up and 
 getting ready of trains at East Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Sometimes; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Keeping business moving at East Buffalo is one 
 of the important points in the transaction of the freight 
 business by the Erie Railway Company, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we calculate on those cars we load here 
 1661 to make up those trains, and if we do not get them out 
 as we expect we will, of course it causes delays, etc. 
 
 Q. Are those delays which you have described, not 
 occasional, but a constant and a substantial thing ? 
 
 A. All the time, more or less. 
 
 Q. At East Buffalo the trains are made up to go 
 eastward ; they talce the cars that you send from your 
 freight-house and that come from the other warehouses, 
 and there make up the train as it is to go on the road ? 
 ^"^^^ A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What would you say as to another road, the 
 Lackawanna, crossing at that same point at grade, all 
 the tracks of the Lake Shore and of the Erie Railway 
 Company, as affecting the transaction of your business? 
 
 A. Well, I say -it would double up onr trouble in 
 respect to the crossing there, and perhaps more than 
 that, because while we got through with one road's 
 trains another might come in and block us again, so that 
 ■we would have to stand lonsrer. 
 
 Q. Of course that would depend to some extent on 
 the business that the Lackawanna did ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if the longer the delay the worse 
 it becomes — if fifteen or twenty minutes or half an 
 hour's detention — if the effect of it is worse, proportion- 
 ately worse on your business, than the five-minute de- 
 lays that occur ? 
 
Hammond.] 417 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 1664 
 
 Q. From your knowledge of all that is done, what 
 would you say as to being able to do your business with 
 having your trains held at that Lake Shore crossing, say 
 iirst by the Lake Shore and then by the Lackawanna, 
 before you could get across ? 
 
 A. I should say it would make very bad work of it ; 
 it would be a ver}' serious drawback ; it is bad enough 
 now. 
 
 Q. Do you think that it would be a serious question 1665 
 with all these tracks across that grade by this new road, 
 whether you could really carry on your business at all as 
 it is now carried on? 
 
 A. Of course I could not now tell the extent that 
 that would block us, but I should consider it a very seri- 
 ous thing. 
 
 Q. It is such troubles as this at this crossing that 
 limit the whole freight capacity of your road, is it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 1^66 
 
 Q. These obstructions at your terminus? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the more of these instructions that exist the 
 less is your road able to do the business which it is oth- 
 erwise capable of doing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is it exactly. 
 
 Q. As it is now, with that one crossing, is that an ele- 
 ment at times in preventing you from doing your full ca- 
 pacity of freight business in the city of Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we are not able to get the trains back- 
 wards and forwards as we calculate to, to load the cars 
 or unload them. 
 
 Q. And you cannot take the business that is waiting 
 for you? 
 
 A. Sometimes we are laid out so that we cannot load 
 as much as we might during the day. 
 
418 
 
 1668 Q. And freight -which is there to carry you cannot 
 carry for that reason ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By 'Com. Clark : Q. Because you cannot load as 
 much ? 
 
 A. Because we cannot get the cars to load. For in- 
 stance, if we want to get trains backwards and forwards 
 we cannot move the ears to get a place for loading. 
 
 Q. You cannot get them in and out of your freight- 
 
 1669 house sufficiently fast ? 
 
 A. That is it. 
 
 Q. You have the power in the freight-house to load 
 if you had the cars? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is, the great point of a crossing of this kind 
 is that it is all the time a pressure on the number of ears 
 that can be brought into your freight-house to load, and 
 the number that can be taken out to unload ? 
 1«^0 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is the business of the Erie and these other 
 roads, as far as you are aware, as to increasing within 
 the last ten years ? 
 
 A. I have not got the figures in my mind exactly, 
 but it is more than doubled. 
 
 Q. Your business has more than doubled in the last 
 ten years ? 
 
 -I oiyi ■I\.m jL G8j Sll • 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Do you mean the business 
 at this particular place of crossing, or the whole business 
 of the company? 
 
 A. The whole business of the company. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming: Q. How about the busi- 
 ness on this very line which crosses the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. I should think that that business there last season 
 doubled up over the previous season. 
 
 Q. Doubled up last year over the previous season ? 
 
Hammond.] 419 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; this business that we are figuring on IS'Jia 
 now is entirely a handhng business ; it comes ftom the 
 elevators and warehouses and is from Buffalo town. 
 
 Q. You say that the business last season over the sea,- 
 son before doubled up ? 
 
 A. I think it very nearly doubled up, if not quite. 
 Q. Has it been increasing right along,, and is it 
 increasing ? 
 
 A. It was larger last year than ever before. It iff in- 
 creasing all the time. 1673 
 
 Q. You have given us last season and the season ber 
 fore ; now please give us between 1879 and 18Z8 ? 
 
 A. Well, I could not give you a very correct idea of 
 them, because I don't recollect just how it was, the sea- 
 sons changed along, but 1 have a very good recollection 
 of last season. 
 
 Q. You can recollect, too, that through these yeai» 
 there has been a steady growth and increase ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, our business changes, you know. Take 
 it up to last year, to the middle of last year say, almost 
 all our town business was handled there, and since that 
 we have had to take it away to Exchange stpeet, to ac- 
 commodate the other businesses that we were handling 
 to Ohio street. 
 
 Q. That is, you grew out of your capacity there ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you had to build another freight-house? ^g^g^ 
 
 A. At Exchange street, yes, sir. 
 Q. And normally, in normal times are you kept atill 
 fully busy in your Ohio street freight-house? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; business is a little slack uo,w with all the 
 roads all around. 
 
 Q. This transfer business with the Lake Shoire does 
 not come into your freight-house ? 
 A. Not at Ohio street, no, sir. 
 
420 
 
 1676 Q. That transfer business is carried on at this point 
 of crossing in this locality ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that a business that has grown up witli the 
 change of the gauge of the Erie Railway? 
 
 A. You mean the Lake Shore? 
 
 Q. Lake Shore and Erie transfer business? 
 
 A. Well, we have always had a fair amount of busi- 
 ness from the Lake Shore road, and it is running heavier 
 
 1677 now than it has for some years. 
 
 Q. Has the narrow gauging ot your road had the 
 effect of increasing that business ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. By the exchange of cars ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Without changing the cars from one set of cars 
 to another? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 1678 By j-ir. Milburn, resuming : Q. When was this line 
 narrow-ganged ? 
 
 A. Do you mean the whole line ? 
 
 Q. No, this freight line ? 
 
 A. It was in 1876. 
 
 Q. The narrow-ganging of the whole line has been 
 going on during the last two or three years ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Previous to having the same gauge as the Lake 
 Shore all your freight there had to be transferred from 
 car to car ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There is a very serious objection to that transfer 
 among shippers, to a great many articles, is there not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, in almost anything that is handled they 
 object to it. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. An objection besides the 
 
 expense? 
 
Hammond.] 421 
 
 A. Yes, sir; on account of damage to packages, and 1680 
 in case of grain, loss of grain ; it is subject to loss by 
 transfer, and even on coal they don't like it because it 
 breaks up ; it is not so very serious about that, but then 
 they do not like it. 
 
 Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. Having to transfer freight 
 is a fact that very mucli limits the business of roads 
 where they have to make the transfer, as compared with 
 roads that do not have to make any transfer, growing 
 out of these very objections of shippers ? 1681 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, since assimilating the gauges of these roads 
 the bulk of that business can be transferred on the cars 
 right from one road to the other 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we make exchanges with all the roads 
 more or less here now. 
 
 Q. Has that fact of the ability to transfer direct from 
 
 the Erie to the Lake Shore increased the transfer busi- 
 
 1682 
 ness which is carried on at this point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; you mean the business exchange be- 
 tween the two roads ? 
 
 Q. The business exchange be'tween the two roads. 
 
 By Mr. Greene: Q. Transferring cars instead of 
 transferring freight from car to car ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. It has increased the 
 freight that the two roads exchange with each other? ^^^^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, How has your business during the last week or 
 ten days been running on your freight line ? 
 
 A. From Ohio street? 
 
 Q. Yes. 
 
 A. It has been very light; our shipments have 
 jumped off nearly one-half. 
 
 Q. How about the exchange business during the last 
 ten days, say between the two roads ? 
 
422 
 
 1684 A. The Lake Shore Road? 
 Q. Yes. 
 
 A. It has been pretty good, it has been pretty strong. 
 
 Q. Comparatively I meant ? 
 
 A. I should say it was just about a good average. 
 Q. But your business from the Ohio street freight- 
 house over that point has been light ? 
 A. Decreased, yes, sir. 
 Q. 1 think you say about half? 
 
 1685 A_ Well, sir, about one-half, 1 should judge. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if your shipments of grain during 
 the last ten days have not been just about half of what 
 they were last yeai- at this time ? 
 
 A. Well, I don't recollect as to that. 
 
 Q. How has your grain business been over this line 
 during the last ten days as compared with last year, say ; 
 I mean an approximation ? 
 
 A. Well, it has been light ; 1 could not, of course, 
 recollect just how it was run at this particular time, last 
 year, but as compared with tlie whole season it is light. 
 
 Q. Far below the average ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that due to some extent to the present war in 
 rates ? 
 
 A. I don't know ; no, it is due more to the peculiari- 
 ties to the trade; they are not prepared to move it just 
 -|^gg~ now, you see. 
 
 Q. Temporary causes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. This present lightness of your business, not the 
 transfer business, but that through the Ohio street freight 
 house, you say is due to temporary causes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Just state a little about what is causing it just 
 now? 
 
 A. Well, for instance, it is light shipment from the 
 
Hammond] 423 
 
 West, from Chicago, and perhaps an increase of ship- 1688 
 ments by all rail on account of the low rates by all rail; 
 you take, for instance, the canal business, there are no 
 boats loading on account of the low rates, on account of 
 low canal rates, and, of course, railroad rates have to be 
 something near corresponding; different things will 
 operate to affect the shipment of grain sometimes ; some- 
 times we will have all we can move, and at other times 
 it will run light ; it depends on the markets, and condi- 
 tion of grain and different things of that kind. 1689 
 
 Q. Then in sending freight by the lakes from this 
 point do you have temporary depression, or lightness of 
 business, owing to the lack of vessels, etc. ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, we are in that situation now; we have a 
 large amount of coal here that is to be shipped by the 
 Delaware and Hudson Company ; that is all handled at 
 Ohio street, and they have been waiting for some three 
 or four days to get vessels ; in the meantime, they do 
 not unload any ; as soon as they get vessels they will 
 want these three or four or five hundred car-loads over 
 there just as soon as they can get it, and if they do not 
 get it promptlj' their men will be idle at an expense to 
 them. 
 
 Q. Where is that coal that is delayed now from de- 
 livery to them — where is it detained ? 
 
 A. At East Buffalo, part of it, and part of it, what 
 little we can store, at Ohio street. .. „.^ 
 
 Q. Where is the great bulk of it? 
 
 A. At East Buffalo. 
 
 Q. And the moment they have the means of shipping 
 it that coal will be brought in from East Buffalo over 
 this freight line and passed on to them ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that for a week or ten days your freight may 
 be accumulating at East Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
424 
 
 1693 Q. That is the present condition of it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How about lumber ? 
 
 A. Well, we handle considerable lumber over there 
 coming from the lake, but that is subject to the same rule 
 as all other business — moved with it. 
 
 Q. So that it brings me to this point, that this light- 
 ness that may exist to-day is not a general falling off of 
 business, but next week you may be at your full run 
 1693 again ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, they may be doing nothing this week, 
 and we may get two thousand car-loads of grain here 
 next week, and we want to load it out just as fast as we 
 can ; working to get out cars and get them there and 
 load them and get them away. 
 
 Q. It is just in these emergencies, your business com- 
 ing in that way, in fits and starts, as it were, owing to 
 these various conditions that you have mentioned, that 
 1°"^* these obstructions at a place like this operate dis- 
 astrously ? 
 
 A. There is where they aifect us seriously. 
 
 Q. By Com. McAlpine: And on particular days and 
 times the business required to be done at this place is 
 necessarily greater than the average ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As well as sometimes very much less than the 
 
 average — is that so ? 
 1695 , ^„ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Milburn, resuming : In other words, it is 
 not a normal, steady business of so many cars a day 
 in busy times ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; let me explain : When this business is 
 coming in with a rush, why we sometimes do not have 
 capacity to store it or take care of it, and the more we get 
 out the more business we can get ; that is to say, the more 
 
Hammond.] 425 
 
 cars we can load the more business will come to ub ; that 1696 
 is the case a good many times. 
 
 Q. And every detention, the detentions that become 
 serious and prevent this, not only delay you in getting 
 your trains out, but delay you in getting business? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you have to let business go? 
 
 A. YeSj sir. 
 
 Q. Do you find that as an existing condition to-day, 
 that you have to let considerable business go from those 1697 
 delays ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, at times. 
 
 Q. I mean currently? 
 
 A. It is so during the season. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us or explain to us the coal business 
 of the Delaware and Hudson Canal Company that is 
 done over this crossing ? 
 
 A. All that is shipped by lake ? 
 
 1 PQQ 
 
 Q. How does it come to be done over this crossing, 
 how do they get their coal by on the roads, and how does 
 it come there ? 
 
 A. Why, it comes by the Erie road. 
 
 Q. Then the coal trestles of the Delaware and Hud- 
 son Canal Company are at the end of this freight line of 
 yours ? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. This freight line that you have connects with the , ^gg 
 coal trestles ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they do a large coal business ? 
 
 A. Very large. 
 
 Q. That business is drawn by the Erie, all of it, so 
 far as it goes by lake, over this Lake Shore crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How large a business do they do — can you give 
 us any estimate ? 
 
426 
 
 1700 A. Well, I don't know as I could very close ; I don't 
 recollect exactly ; it runs from fifty to a hundred thou- 
 sand tons a year. 
 
 Q. That is, coal that you bring to their trestle there ? 
 
 A. For instance, we have to-day in our yard over 
 three hundred car-loads consigned there. 
 
 Q. At East Buffalo ? 
 
 A. At East Buffalo, and over at Ohio street. 
 
 Q. By Com. McAlpine : How much coal does a car 
 1 '"1 contain ? 
 
 A. It runs from twelve to twenty tons. 
 
 Q. Eight-vpheel cars? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Is that an increas- 
 ing business of theirs ? 
 
 A. It depends altogether upon circumstances ; some 
 years the tonnage will run a good deal larger than 
 
 others. 
 
 1702 ^ „ 
 
 y. But you cannot say as to a steady normal in- 
 crease ? 
 
 A. It would naturally increase the same as all other 
 business ; it depends somewhat upon the movement by 
 rail. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. How many cars can you store 
 at your Ohio street tracks ? 
 
 A. I should say between four and five hundred. 
 
 1703 ^y Com. Clark : Q. How many can you load with 
 grain with your present facilities in the twenty-four 
 hours ? 
 
 A. Well, we have tried to solve that a good many 
 times; it depends altogether upon circumstances, how 
 we can get the cars. 
 
 Q. Supposing you have the cars, how many can you 
 load? 
 
 A. We could load four hundred cars a day. 
 
Hammond xj 427 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 1704 
 
 Q. Do you have anything to do with tlie practical 
 operation of trains ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who attends to that? 
 
 A. The superintendent's department. 
 
 Q. Where do you stay during the day ? 
 
 A. Well, my office is at the corner of Louisiana and 
 Exchange streets, but I am all over. 
 
 Q. Those are your head-quarters ? ^'^^^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you have anything to do with the direction of 
 trains ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What means of knowledge have you as to delays ; 
 anything more than general report ? 
 
 A. What delays have you reference to ? 
 
 Q. Delays at crossing ? 
 
 A. Oh, these trains are local switching trains. 
 
 Q. What knowledge have you in regard to them? 
 
 A. Well, those are under my jurisdiction. 
 
 Q. Do you manage them yourself? 
 
 A. Not personally, but they are managed under men 
 whom I have charge of. 
 
 Q. And who report to you ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you have any delays at the streets in this city j^wqw 
 — street crossings ? 
 
 A. Oh, sometimes ; we sometimes break a train where 
 we are blocked at a crossing some little time. 
 
 Q. That entails delay, does it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. One of the delays incident to the operation of a 
 railroad in a city ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
428 
 
 1708 Q. Do yon have those delays at the Buffalo, New 
 York and Philadelphia crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you have delay at the transfer tracks crossing? 
 
 A. Where do you mean ? 
 
 Q. I mean the transfer tracks between the Lake 
 Shore and the New York Central, the Compromise tracks, 
 as they are termed? 
 
 Mr. Milburn : We don't go there at all. 
 1'''09 Q. Don't you cross the Compromise tracks of the 
 New York Central and Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Not in going to Ohio street. 
 
 Q. You have freight from your city freight-house on 
 Louisiana street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That goes across there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you have delays there ? 
 
 A. What you are trying to get is the Lake Shore 
 track going to East Buffalo, I suppose ? 
 
 Q. Yes? 
 
 A. We have delays there sometimes. 
 
 Q. Quite serious delays ? 
 
 A. Well, we have to wait for trains to pass. 
 
 Q. Do you have charge of the yards at the Interna- 
 tional Bridge? 
 j^jj^ A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You don't have anything to do with that business 
 down there ; don't you have charge of the freight that is 
 received at the International Bridge and handled there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have charge of it, but 1 don't pretend 
 to have anything to do with the switching down there. 
 
 Q. You don't know anything about delays at that 
 point? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
Hammond xj 429 
 
 Q. Do you have any delays at the Buffalo Creek 1712 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. That and the Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia 
 are about the same thing. 
 
 Q. Out there there are two crossings, are there not, 
 at Babcock street, or near Babcock street, where the 
 Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia crosses and the 
 Buffalo Creek road? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Two crossings of the Erie tracks, the Philadelphia 1713 
 crosses your track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the Buffalo Creek road crosses your track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. About how far apart are those crossings ? 
 
 A. Fifty or seventy-five feet. 
 
 Q. How long have they existed there? 
 
 A. 1 don't know how long the Buffalo, New York 
 and Philadelphia road has been built; the Buffalo Creek ' 
 track, I think, was put in last year. 
 
 Q. The Buffalo and Philadelphia track was laid in 
 1868, that would be thirteen years for the Philadelphia ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And a year for the Buffalo Creek Railroad ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All the freight that is consigned to the docks on 
 
 Buffalo River via the New York Central road uses that , „^ , 
 
 1715 
 belt road and crosses your mam track ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How does it get around to the Buffalo River ? 
 
 A. Well, the freight by the Central consigned to the 
 Buffalo Creek Railroad goes there, but their through 
 freight goes to the Ohio street depot. 
 
 Q. All the freight that goes to the Ohio street depot 
 crosses the main tracks of the Erie, don't it? 
 
 A. Not the New York Central ; no, sir. 
 
430 
 
 1716 Q. It must cross the main track of the Erie road 
 somewhere ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That freight comes in here ? 
 A. Yon mean the Alabama street crossing ? 
 Q. I mean the Alabama street crossing ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Every particle of New York Central freight that 
 comes here for transshipment by freight crosses the 
 
 1717 Erie tracks at grade ? 
 
 A. On Exchange street; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Every particle of freight that comes by Lake con- 
 signed to the New York Central road crosses the main 
 Erie tracks at Alabama street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever go down there and look at that 
 Central crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 ^'^^^ Q. At Alabama street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I am located right there. 
 
 Q. Are great delays experienced at that crossing? 
 
 A. More or less ; but we do not run much freight 
 there ; it is most all passenger business. 
 
 Q. Your city freight from your Louisiana street 
 freight-house runs there, don't it i 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 , ^. Q Q. Now, the delays consequent upon yo nr city freight 
 being blocked at the Alabama street crossing were not 
 sufficient to induce yon to put your freight-house at a 
 point easterly of the crossing, were they, your city 
 freight-house ? 
 
 A. Well, that was not the consideration. 
 
 Q. It was not a consideration, it did not amount to 
 enough to be a consideration ? 
 
 A. No; we had the building and the ground, and 
 
Hammond x] 431 
 
 otlier property ; that was the reason of our patting it 1730 
 where it is now. 
 
 Q. Now, let ns see about that ; in the last three years 
 has not the Erie Railway bought the Exchange street 
 property, between Chicago street and Michigan street, 
 where your milk sheds are, and all that property in 
 there ? 
 
 A. I can't tell ; I don't know ; I guess not, though ; 
 they might have bought a little parcel of land in there. 
 
 Q. You could have used those buildings down there •'^ '^^ 
 for the same purposes for which you now use the prop- 
 erty west of Chicago street, could you not ? You could 
 have economized those buildings, could you not, for 
 other purposes than for a city freight-house ? 
 
 A. Well, we had a machine shop there — 
 
 Q. How far have you extended your city freight- 
 house down there ? 
 
 A. About two hundred and fifty feet. 
 
 Q. You are building on it now, are you not? 
 
 A. No, sir; we have got through. 
 
 Q. So that you receive all your local freight there, 
 do you? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All that comes from the city of Buffalo ? 
 
 A. All the miscellaneous freight. 
 
 Q. How many grade-crossings do you know of in 
 the city of Buffalo ? -|^,^23 
 
 A. I know of three. 
 
 Q. You know of the Buffalo Creek crossing of the 
 Lake Shore road, do you not? 
 
 A. No, I don't. 
 
 Q. Don't you know where the Buffalo Creek road 
 crosses the Lake Shore, just beyond the Buffalo Railroad 
 bridge ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q'. Do you know of the Philadelphia crossing and 
 
432 
 
 17^4 the Buffalo Creek crossing of the Erie tracks? You 
 know of the Erie crossing of the Compromise tracks, 
 the Lake Shore and Central? You know about the 
 crossing of the main lines of the New York Central and 
 the main passenger lines of the Erie ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You know about the crossing at the International 
 Bridge, below the International Bridge, where the Erie 
 tracks cross the New Y'ork Ceutral track, do you not ? 
 1725 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You know of the Suspension Bridge crossing at 
 Suspension Bridge, where the Erie and International 
 crosses the New York Central at grade? 
 
 A. It goes over. 
 
 Q. It don't go over ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it does. 
 
 Q. I am talking of Suspension Bridge. Do you know 
 of but one crossing in the city of Buffalo that is an over- 
 head crossing? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other except where the Erie 
 International crosses the yard, and the main tracks of the 
 New York Central ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, from the position of those crossings, does it 
 not follow that the passenger and freight business of ev- 
 ,^27 6'T ""oad entering the city of Buffalo has to be conducted 
 over grade-crossings ? 
 
 A. What did yon say first, I did not understand yon ? 
 
 Q. Can you give me an instance where a pound of 
 freight comes into or leaves the city of Buffalo that does 
 not have to be carried over some other railroad at grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, on our branch — on our Falls branch. 
 
 Q. That does not have to cross any at grade ; where 
 do you receive freight on your Falls branch ? 
 
 A. Well, not within the city of Buffalo. 
 
Hammond xj 433 
 
 Q. It has to cross the Lake Shore track? 1728 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. If it starts from the dock it does ? 
 
 A. Our Falls branch ? 
 
 Q. That has to cross a grade at Niagara Falls, don't 
 it? 
 
 A. I thought you were talking about Buffalo ? 
 
 Q. That has to cross a grade at Niagara Falls, don't 
 it? 
 
 A. I believe it does, yes, sir. 1739 
 
 Q. So that, barring the little business you bring and 
 send to Suspension Bridge, every other particle of 
 freight has to be carried over a railroad at grade ? 
 
 A. All we get from the Great Western and Canada 
 Southern comes up that way. 
 
 Q. All the New York Central freight has to cross 
 the Erie tracks at grade ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why not? ^^^^^ 
 
 A. We go over the New York Central tracks. 
 
 Q. You do at one place, but it has to cross the Erie 
 tracks in getting to the dock, or Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. Going to the Falls branch and International 
 Bridge it don't cross ns at East Buffalo. 
 
 Q. But every pound of freight that comes in from 
 the New York Central road that has to be delivered to 
 the city of Buffalo, or that is to be carried west of the 
 city of Buffalo by rail or water has to cross the Erie 
 tracks at grade, does it not ? 
 
 A. There are cases where they do not cross our 
 tracks ; that is for delivery of business at East Buffalo ; 
 a good deal of business at Erie street, I think, would 
 not cross our tracks. 
 
 Q. How can it get to Erie street without crossing 
 your tracks at grade ? 
 
 A. Well, they would go around the belt road. 
 
434 
 
 1732 Q. Don't they cross you at the International Bridge 
 at grade ? 
 
 A. 1 think not. 
 
 James D. Hawks, recalled on behalf of the petition- 
 ers, and examined by Mr. Greene, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Will you state from your knowledge, observation, 
 and experience as an engineer, and in railroad matters, 
 the objections that occur to you to grade-crossings upon 
 main lines of railways ? 
 
 A. The objections are partly due to the delay caused 
 by grade-crossings, and partly due to the dangers caused 
 Ijy grade-crossing, and the damage to rolling stock and 
 road-bed caused by the crossing frogs. 
 
 Q. By Com. McAlpine : The increased damage? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is increased damage over a straight 
 ti'ack. 
 1734. Q- ^y (counsel, resuming : What do you say as to 
 whether or not they ought to be avoided in all cases 
 where it is possible and practicable ? 
 
 A. 1 think that they should be avoided in all cases 
 where practicable. 
 
 Q. What do you say in reference to this particular 
 
 crossing, whether it is practicable and advisable, all 
 
 things considered, to have an over-crossing upon the 
 
 proposed altered line, in preference to a grade-crossing 
 
 1735 npou the proposed line ? 
 
 A. I think that it would prove a decided benefit and 
 advantage to the Lake Shore Eoad, to the Erie Eoad, 
 and to the Lackawanna Eoad to have an over-crossing 
 at this point. 
 
 Q. And all things considered, the benefits and ad- 
 vantages, as well as the expense and injniies to all of 
 these companies — in your judgment, would it be advisable 
 preferable, to have an over-head crossing, as proposed by 
 
Hawks.] 435 
 
 the alteration, in preference to the proposed route at 1736 
 grade ? 
 
 A. Most decidedly, to the advantage of all roads. 
 
 Q. Will you now please state in reference to this 
 particular crossing, some of tlie special reasons, owing 
 to the peculiar situation of the tracks, yards, and busi- 
 ness transacted there ? 
 
 A. The crossing at that point proposed by the Lack- 
 awanna Railroad is especially objectionable, from the 
 fact that it crosses the Lake Shore at the throat of their 1737 
 yard, and not only crosses the main tracks, but crosses 
 several side tracks as well on the Lake Shore road, so that 
 the objection is not only caused by the numbes of tracks 
 which it crosses, and the number of crossing frogs which 
 that track involves, but it is also objectionable from the 
 amount of traffic which it causes, and the same applies 
 to the crossing on the Erie road ; it crosses only two 
 tracks of the Erie, and crossing with a double-track road 
 it would involve the necessity of putting in four sets of '^ '^° 
 crossing frogs on the Erie ; but the traffic of the Erie 
 road, which it crosses, makes it objectionable, as that 
 traffic is already delayed by a crossing at this point where 
 the Erie and Lake Shore cross, so that it adds to the de- 
 lay in the passage of trains on the Erie road and on the 
 Lake Shore, being, at a point where the delays are al- 
 ready numerous ; it would increase those delays, and in- 
 crease the difficulty of doing a business which it is al- 
 ready difficult to handle. 
 
 Q. And what would you say as to the improbability 
 of being able to handle business, as you express it, or 
 transact the necessary business of the Lake Shore and 
 Erie at that point, with a double track crossing as pro- 
 posed, at grade, with business such as to' warrant the 
 construction of a double track at that point ? 
 
 A. I think it would very materially interfere and 
 delay the handling of business of both roads at that 
 
436 
 
 1740 point, which interference would affect the business of the 
 Lake Shore road and of the Erie road at other points 
 besides simply the points of crossing. 
 
 Q. With ihe amount of business that was transacted 
 over the Lake Shore in 1880, what would you say as to 
 whether or not it would be a very serious detriment, and 
 as to whether or not there is doubt as to their being 
 able to transact their business, the business of the last 
 year, 1880? 
 
 1741 A. I don't think that the business of 1880 could have 
 been transacted over the Lake Shore road if that double- 
 track crossing was in there ; I might explain what I 
 mean by tliat : the business of the Lake Shore Eoad 
 goes by fits and starts, as you might say — their freight 
 business — there are times when there is a block either 
 on the Central road or some of the yards west, and at 
 those times the business accumulates at Buffalo, or- accu- 
 mulates on the Central road, or accumulates in the west- 
 
 1742 ern yards of the Lake Shore road ; and when this block 
 exists, the business is very light on the railroad, whether 
 the block is caused by snow, or freshets, or broken 
 bridges, or anything of the kind, the freight accumu- 
 lates, and then when the cause of these delays is done 
 with, when the blockade is broken, then the road does 
 all the business that can be handled with its existing 
 facilities. 
 
 Q. Is that largely increased business sometimes con- 
 
 1743 ■ 
 
 tinned for a week or two weeks at a time ? 
 
 A. Sometimes continues two weeks before the thing 
 is running in a normal condition. 
 
 Q. And they are constantly occupied there ? 
 
 A. They are getting everything out of the yard they 
 can. 
 
 Q. What can you say, judging from the past few 
 years — I believe you have stated you have been engaged 
 
Hawks.] 437 
 
 upon this road for twelve years — as to the increase of nil- 
 business upon that road for the last few years ? 
 
 A. Well, I don't know that I ana able to give any 
 figxires as to the increase of business, but it has been 
 very largely increased since my connection with the 
 road. 
 
 Q. A constant increase down to the present time ? 
 
 A. We have been during the last twelve years con- 
 stantly increasing our facilities in the shape of track- 
 room, side-tracks, freight-houses, etc., and are at the pres- 1745 
 ent time still increasing the facilities. 
 
 Q. With a view and expectation of a continued prog- 
 ress and increase in the amount of business ? 
 
 A. With a view to doing more business than we have 
 been able to do in the past, we are putting in a yard at 
 CoUenwood, for instance, with twenty tracks in it. 
 
 Q. And the arrangements that you have made and 
 are making, and that are projected, are such as lead you 
 to believe that the business of the road will progress — '■'^^ 
 that the increase will continue ? 
 
 A. This extending of the Lake Shore meant that we 
 are going to do more business than we have been doing, 
 and that is why -we are getting able to handle more 
 business. 
 
 Q. What is this map I now show you ? 
 
 A. That is an old map of a portion of the Lake Shore 
 yards, at Buffalo. .^,_ 
 
 Q. That represents the situation as it was when ? 
 
 A. Well, I could not say that it represents the situa- 
 tion as it was at any particular time ; some parts of the 
 map are newer than others ; some parts of the map 
 have been worked up to a more recent date than other 
 portions ; it represents the present situation as far as a 
 good deal of work is concerned. 
 
 Q. Does it represent the present situation of the cross- 
 ing of the Erie with the Lake Shore, of the transfer freight- 
 
438 
 
 1 748 house, transfer platform, and the location of the car- 
 shops, and the new engine-house or round-house, and 
 machine shop ; does it represent the location of those 
 points ? 
 
 A. Well, it represents fully the location of some of 
 those points, and some it does not, because there are a 
 great many tracks down there, in the yard, that are not 
 shown on this map. 
 
 Q. Taking the yard first, tell us what the material or 
 
 1749 principal alterations have been in the tracks since this 
 map was made ? 
 
 A. Well, as far as this yard is concerned, the yard 
 which crosses Elk street, I think the present number of 
 tracks there now, with an additional track to the gas- 
 house, shown in lead pencil there, that makes eleven 
 tracks across Elk street ; I think that part of it there is 
 correct; now, there are other tracks into this block 
 between Fulton street and Elk street which are not 
 ^'^^ shown there. 
 
 Q. Between Fulton and Elk, the yard and Van Rens- 
 selaer street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; there are other tracks that are not 
 shown on this map. 
 
 Q. Crossing Fulton street? 
 
 A. Crossing Fulton street ; some cross Fulton street, 
 and some don't cross Fulton street. 
 ^-,,-, Q- Numerous tracks there ? 
 
 A. There are some three or four tracks there, I 
 should think, running, some of them, clear as far as Van 
 Rensselaer street. 
 
 Q. How is it in reference to between Fulton and 
 Perry ? 
 
 A. I think the situation between Fulton and Perry 
 streets is pretty well represented on this map, except 
 some additional tracks between Fulton street and Perry ; 
 starting out of the yard and between Fulton and Perry ; 
 
Hawks.] 439 
 
 then between Perry and Scott street ; we have coal plat- 1753 
 lorms in there which are not shown here at all ; we have 
 three coal platforms in there; that is where all our 
 engines take coal. 
 
 Q. Between the track marked engine-shed and Perry 
 street, you have those coal platforms ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the map is so old it don't exactly repre- 
 sent tht) state of affairs ; we have more tracks on the 
 northerly side of the present tracks shown there. 
 
 Q. And coal-sheds there? 1753 
 
 A. Coal platforms there; they have tracks on the 
 southerly side of these tracks shown, leading to the 
 new engine-house and coal platforms there ; they have 
 wood-sheds still south of that, and tracks, and a coal 
 platform still south of that, with a center pit, and tracks 
 out of that, and additional tracks leading into the 
 engine-house, not shown on this map, additional tracks 
 leading into the old engine-house from this system of 
 coaling tracks; and there are additional tracks leading 
 from the old engine-house to the machine-shop, not 
 shown on this map ; there are two tracks, that have 
 been denominated the Compromise tracks, leading to East 
 Buffalo, and only one is shown on this map ; there is a 
 track runs oif here and crosses Scott street, south of any- 
 thing shown on this map ; that track that is extended 
 across Hamburgh street, alongside of the Hamburgh 
 Canal, and runs down to Bumsey's tannery, at the ex- 
 tension, is not shown on this map; and there is a scale 
 track, in near Hamburgh street, not shown on that map, 
 and so on. 
 
 Q. What wonld you say as to its being practicable 
 to move the throat of your yard, as you term it, down 
 to the northward, so as to do the switching which is now 
 done at and near the proposed crossing, north of the pro- 
 posed ci'ossing — could the yard be extended to the 
 
 1754 
 
 1755 
 
440 
 
 1756 northerly, so as to furnish you proper facilities for doing 
 your business ? 
 
 A. Tlie throat of the yard can be extended northerly, 
 but if it is, it cuts the yard off, so that the yard is use- 
 less — so that the yard proper cannot, be extended north- 
 erly. 
 
 Q. And would it cut it off liere, so as to be practi- 
 cally useless as a yard ? 
 
 A. It would be of no value as a switching or receiv- 
 
 1757 ing yard if it was extended northerly. 
 
 Q. This present yard, and the buildings, shops and 
 tracks have all been placed in accordance with a system 
 adopted by the company for the transaction of its busi- 
 ness, such as wei'e regarded necessary, and the best that 
 could be made considering the ground they had to work 
 upon, were they ? 
 
 A. The system of tracks represents the growth of 
 the business of the Lake Shore road ; there have been 
 ^^^^ added track after track, as the necessities of the business 
 of the road demanded. 
 
 Q. And in the best manner and form which the 
 engineers were able to conceive or design ? 
 
 A. Were able to conceive with their limited knowl- 
 edge as to what was to happen in the future. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Such additions have been 
 proven to have been neeessHry by the subsequent cir- 
 cumstances ? 
 1759 
 
 A. By the constant use to which every track in the 
 
 3'ard is put. 
 
 Kesumed by counsel : Q. And is it not a fact that 
 their conveniences there now are Hmited to such an ex- 
 tent as at times to be the cause of great inconvenience 
 in the transaction of their business ? 
 
 A. The conveniences there are so limited that a few 
 years ago the Lake Shore folks went with their through 
 
Hawks.] 441 
 
 business to East Buffalo, where we have very extensive j^^gQ 
 yards. 
 
 Q. Are they so limited now as to frequently cause 
 difficulties and obstructions in the transaction of their 
 business ? 
 
 A. Very frequently cause delay in the transaction of 
 their every-day business. 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. What did you say about the yard 
 at East Buffalo ? 
 
 A. I said the company had been forced to take this ^^gl 
 through business to East Buffalo. 
 
 Q. Where they have extensive yards ? 
 
 A. I did not say so, did I ? 
 
 Q. Didn't you say anything about extensive yards ? 
 
 A. Did I? Did I say so ? That was the through 
 business. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming: Q. When was the gauge 
 of the Erie road changed from wide to narrow ? 
 
 A. I understand that has been rather of a gradual 170a 
 process, but I couldn't perhaps give you the year. 
 
 Q. About how long ago was it completed ? 
 
 A. About 1875 or 1876, or 1877, along there; in fact 
 it is not entirely completed yet. 
 
 Q. Previous to that change, the only transfer of 
 freight was from car to car, was it not ? 
 
 A. We had the transfer-house in there previous to 
 the change in the Erie road, and the Erie track crossed 
 onr track ; their gauge was a six-foot gauge, at that time ; ^'^^•^ 
 there were none of our engineers who could foresee that 
 their gauge was to be changed to the standard gauge ; 
 we had the transfer-house there, and transferred freight 
 from our cars, which were of a gauge of four feet nine 
 and a half, to the Erie cars, which were six feet, simply 
 transferring freight from car to car ; there was no change 
 of transferring cars from our road to the Erie road, be- 
 cause their gauge was six feet, and ours was four feet 
 
442 
 
 1764 nine and one-half inches since the crossing was put iu, 
 and since the transfer-house was put in they have changed 
 their gauge, and now it is possible to transfer ears from 
 our road to the Erie road, and there is a large business 
 done on the Lake Shore in Erie cars. 
 
 Q. Have you examined the map of the city of Buf- 
 falo here, on which is laid down in red lines the proposed 
 location of the Lackawanna road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 I'i'SS Q. Have you examined the location of the lines "A," 
 and " B," upon that map, and are you acquainted with 
 ground in the locality ? 
 
 A. I am somewhat familiar with the grounds in that 
 locahty, and I have examined the lines "A" and " B," 
 laid down on that map. 
 
 Q. State whether as an engineer, or otherwise, you 
 are enabled to discover any necessity for the construc- 
 tion of both of tliose lines, "A," and " B " ? 
 
 A. I have been unable to discover any reason for 
 having two lines in as expensive a place to build lines 
 as that is, where one line appears to be able to do the 
 business. 
 
 Q. The line "B"? 
 
 A. The line " B," seems to me amply sufficient to do 
 any business in that location. 
 
 Q. And no occasion whatever, that you can observe 
 ,„„„ or discover, for the construction of the line "A" 'i 
 
 A. I can see no occasion for the construction of line 
 "A" ; I understand there is to be a double track across 
 the Lake Shore road and the Erie road, and whether 
 line " B " is to be a double track or not, I don't know, 
 and whether line "A" is to be a double track or not, I 
 don't know ; but provided line " B " and "A" were sin- 
 gle tracks, and the balance was double track, it would 
 be perhaps a more foolish arrangement than though they 
 were all double tracks. 
 
Hawks.J 443 
 
 Q. That is, to split the tracks apart, and have one 1768 
 upon Hne "A," and one upon line " B " ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It would be better, in your judgment, to continue 
 the double track over line " B "? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think there could be more business 
 transacted on a double track on line " B," than a single 
 track on line "A " and line " B," coming together at a 
 point near the Philadelphia crossing there, and again at 
 a point near the Lake Shore crossing? 1769 
 
 Q. Meeting the track at this point? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Bj Com. McAlpine : Q. Suppose each of these are 
 double tracks, then can any more business be done upon 
 the vyhole road, having two double tracks — suppose lines 
 "A " and '' B " to be both double tracks, could any more 
 business be done over those two lines combined than 
 could be done over the single line westerly of the pro- 
 posed crossing, a single double-track line west of the '-''^ 
 proposed crossing ? 
 
 A. I should say not ; I should say that these two 
 tracks had no more capacity, lines "B" and "A" both, 
 as double-track lines had no more capacity for the hand- 
 ling of the business than the lines west of the proposed 
 crossing as a double-track line, because it is a double 
 track also north of the Buffalo and Philadelphia road, 
 and the business would come on a double track line to 
 two double-track lines to come together and go over a 
 single double-track line, so that, as far as through busi- 
 ness is concerned, there could be no more handled over 
 line "A" and line " B " both as double-track lines, than 
 there could be over one double-track line on the line "B." 
 
 Resumed by counsel: Q. One double-track line, in 
 other words, connecting the main line north of the Phil- 
 adelphia road, and the main line west of the proposed 
 
444 
 
 1772 crossing, would answer every purpose that two double- 
 track lines would ? 
 
 A. I should say so ; in other words, that the mere 
 making of four tracks instead of two, for half a mile or 
 80, on this Lackawanna road would not increase the 
 capacity of the road. 
 
 Q. The capacity of doing the work on those two lines 
 is limited by the capacity of doing the work on that line 
 west? 
 
 1773 ^_ Yes, sir ; it is limited by the freight which comes 
 to those two lines, and which leaves those two lines from 
 that direction. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. How old a man are you ? 
 
 A. I am thirty-three, I think ; you and I used to 
 play marbles together; about the same age, I think. 
 
 Q. How long have you been division engineer ? 
 
 A. 1 have been on the Lake Shore road, in the en- 
 gineer's department, for the last twelve years. 
 
 Q. How long as clerk ? 
 
 A. 1 never was clerk on the Lake Shore road. 
 
 Q. Have you been division engineer for twelve 
 years ? 
 
 A. My rank at the present time is assistant engineer 
 of the Lake Shore road. 
 |i;/ij5 Q- How long have you been assistant engineer of 
 the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. I think it is since 1877. 
 
 Q. What were you before that ? 
 
 A. I was engineer in charge of the Erie division 
 previous to that. 
 
 Q. What is the Erie division ? 
 
 A. From Erie to Cleveland. 
 
 Q. How long were you in charge of the Erie 
 division ? 
 
Hawks X ] 445 
 
 A. From 1875 to 1877. 1776 
 
 Q. What were you before 1875 ? 
 
 A. I was assistant engineer on the Buffalo division. 
 
 Q. Who was your engineer ? 
 
 A. Mr. Emslie was the engineer of the Buffalo divi- 
 sion at the time I was assistant engineer. 
 
 Q. How long were you assistant engineer for the 
 Buffalo division ? 
 
 A. From the time I came on the road in 1870, until 
 the time I left the division in 1875 ; about five years. 1 777 
 
 Q. So that your experience on the Lake Shore com- 
 menced in 1870 ? 
 
 A. It commenced in the winter of 1869 and 1870. 
 
 Q. Does the map marked, for identification by the 
 stenographer, "B," correctly show the Lake Shore lands 
 between the Erie crossing and the engine-house, or round- 
 house ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think it does. 
 
 Q. Is the Lake Shore in possession of all the lands ^'^'^^ 
 within the yellow boundaries shown upon that map? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it has been in such possession for how long ? 
 
 A. I should say for the last ten years, anyway ; I don't 
 know the exact date of some of the purchases. 
 
 Q. Barring the improvements which you have men- 
 tioned in your direct examination, are there any other 
 
 changes which should be made in this map ? 
 
 1779 
 A. Well, I would not say that this map is correct as 
 
 to the Erie tracks ; I have not said so. 
 
 Q. I don't mean as to Erie tracks, I mean as to the 
 Lake Shore tracks ? 
 
 A. Well, we have some buildings that are not on 
 this map. 
 
 Q. Is there anything between the Abbott road, the 
 Lake Shore, and the Erie track, except as shown upon 
 this map ? 
 
446 
 
 1780 A. The Abbott road don't cross the Lake Shore 
 tracks there. 
 
 Q. The Abbott road, the Lake Shore tracks and the 
 Erie tracks, except as shown npon this map, tliat is that 
 part of lot 57 south of the Erie tracks ? 
 
 A. There are some tracks shown here in lead pencil 
 that are not there. 
 
 Q. There are some tracks shown in lead pencil? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 1781 Q. When were those lead pencil lines put in ? 
 A. I haven't the most remote idea, sir. 
 
 Q. Then at some time you have intended to make 
 
 some other tracks to the north of the transfer-house, 
 have you ? 
 
 A. I don't know anything about it. 
 
 Q. There are some tracks laid down there in pencil ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To the north of the transfer-house ? 
 
 A. To the north of the transfer-house ; some stui) 
 tracks. 
 
 Q. When were they put on that map ? 
 
 A. I haven't the most remote idea. 
 
 Q. Did you put them on ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know who did? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 178? ^' ^° ^^^^ appear to have been put on by some 
 engineer ? 
 
 A. Your engineer might have put them on there for 
 all I know ; I did not put them on ] I telegraphed to 
 Cleveland to have a map sent ; this was not the map I 
 sent for ; it was sent to me. 
 
 Q. Do you think some one in the Lake Shore office 
 has put them on ? 
 
 Q. What could be the object of putting new tracks 
 on that map in that place? 
 
Hawks x] 447 
 
 A. 1 don't know what tlie object was. l'J'84 
 
 Q. You cannot imagine, can you? 
 
 A. If you want me to imagine, I will let my imagi- 
 nation have free play, and perhaps I can solve it. 
 
 Q. You think you could suspect the occasion of put- 
 ting on those tracks in pencil, do you ? 
 
 A. I think, perhaps, I could suspect what it was. 
 
 Q. Well, it was to get more storage room, was it not? 
 
 A. Well, I am not going to suspect anything about 
 it. 1785 
 
 Q. You don't want to suspect? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I have told you I don't know anything 
 about the track ; now, as far as guess-work is concerned, 
 I don't propose to go into it. 
 
 Q. Those tracks could be almost indefinitely multi- 
 plied in the same way that you have them there in 
 pencil ? 
 
 A. No, not indefinitely, that would not express it. 
 
 Q. You could have twenty or thirty, could you not? ^ '°° 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How many could you have ? 
 
 A. There is only really one track shown here ; you 
 have used the word " tracks." There is only one track 
 shown in pencil. 
 
 Q. There is a part of another track ? 
 
 A. Well, there is part of another track which appar- 
 ently wouldn't work in, wouldn't connect. 
 
 Q. You have no suspicion what those were put on 
 there for ? 
 
 A. No, sir 
 
 Q. Nor when they were put onl 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And as an engineer you couldn't form any judg- 
 ment as to how those marks came upon that map, or 
 what the object of the man was who put them on ? 
 
448 
 
 1788 A. They have evidently been put on the map to see 
 how tracks in that location would work. 
 
 Q. That is the best judgment you could form on the 
 subject ? 
 
 A. Of course, not having put those tracks on there I 
 don't know whether it was a success or not; from the fact 
 that they are not put in on the ground, I should infer 
 not. 
 
 Q. Has the Lake Shore any lands at East Buffalo ? 
 
 1789 A. I didn't say we had any lands at East Buffalo? 
 Q. 1 ask you if you have any lands ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any transfer tracks at East Buffalo? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How manj'? 
 
 A. There is a transfer-house there, belongs to the 
 Central road. 
 
 Q. Have you any transfer tracks there at the Central 
 
 1790 ,oad? 
 
 A. We don't own any lands at East Buffalo, and we 
 don't own any tracks at East Buffalo. 
 
 Q. Have you ever laid any tracks at East Buffalo ? 
 
 A. I think we have laid two or three what we call 
 cripple tracks along William street at East Buffalo. 
 
 Q. What distance? 
 
 A. I don't know, they are simply to store cars on to 
 
 take manure out of cattle cars, and to store crippled cars 
 1791 
 
 on while slight repairs are being done. 
 
 Q. How long tracks have you laid at East Buflalo ? 
 
 A. They may be a thousand feet long, and they may 
 be fifteen hundred. 
 
 Q. You don't know ? 
 
 A. I don't know, they are stub- tracks, they don't con- 
 nect with anything except at one end. 
 
 Q. Have you any arrangement with the New York 
 
Hawks x] 449 
 
 Central Road, to your knowledge, relative to the use of 1792 
 tracks at East Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we have an arrangement. 
 
 Q. You have certain tracks at East Buffalo which are 
 known as Lake Shore tracks ? 
 
 A. Which the Lake Shore keep up. They are on 
 New York Central territory, but the Lake Shore keeps 
 them up. 
 
 Q. How many of those tracks are tliere ? 
 
 A. Well, I couldn't tell exactly. There may be 1793 
 thirty or forty of them. 
 
 Q. How long are they, on an average ? 
 
 A. From a thousand to fifteen hundred feet, it is all 
 simply guess-work. 
 
 Q. Your best judgment you are giving ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had anything to do with those tracks, 
 personally ? 
 
 A. Personally, no, sir ; except to make a map of 
 their yard. I have made a map of their yard out there, 
 and if I had known you wanted it I could have had it 
 and shown the whole thing. 
 
 Q. This Erie crossing is a great objection to your 
 yard? 
 
 A. Decidedly so. 
 
 Q. Very seriously so ? 
 
 A. Very seriously so. 
 
 Q. And I suppose Elk street is a very serious ob- 
 jection to your yard ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And Fulton street? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And Perry street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And Scott street to a certain extent? 
 
450 
 
 1796 A. Yes, sir ; all making; up a very serious complica- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. They do make up a very serious complication ; 
 why don't you put your yard south of Buffalo River, on 
 the Tifft farm ? 
 
 A. The Tifft farm is overflowed whenever there is 
 high water on the lake or river. 
 
 Q. Is your track overflowed on the Tifft farm ? 
 
 A. Our track is some Ave or six feet above the level 
 l'''^'^ of the land on the Tifft farm, and I have known our land 
 to be overflown. 
 
 Q. You have known it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many times ? 
 
 A. I don't know as I can state definitely. 
 
 Q. Have you ever known it to overflow but once ? 
 
 A. I think we have had trouble there two or three 
 
 times from water; perhaps the trouble might have been 
 1798 '11 -.^ 
 
 from the water being so close to the track that we have 
 been fearful it would overflow. 
 
 Q. Now, have you had au}^ trouble on the Tifft farm 
 a thousand feet above the bridge ? 
 
 A. That is not on the Tifft farm. 
 
 Q. Have you had any trouble with water from a point 
 a thousand feet south of your bridge over Buffalo River 
 to a point three thousand feet south of your bridge ? 
 j^^gt, A. That would give us a total of four thousand feet 
 west of the river. 
 
 Q,. Three thousand feet from the bridge ; it is on the 
 second or third thousand of the three thousand feet?, 
 
 A. About two thousand one hundred and twenty-six 
 feet will take us to the crossing. 
 
 Q. Now for a thousand feet or two thousand feet 
 south of the Buffalo Creek crossing, have you had any 
 trouble ? 
 
 A. I think we have within that distance. 
 
Hawks x] 451 
 
 Q. Now, will you swear that you have had any trou- 1800 
 ble there within three years or five years or ten years ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You will swear to that positively ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When ? 
 
 A. I think the last time — well, some three or four 
 years ago we abandoned the north track entirely across 
 the Tiift farm on account of water. 
 
 Q. From where from Tifl't street. ^"^^ 
 
 A. We abandoned it all the distance across Tiift's 
 farm. 
 
 Q. That is from Tifft street. 
 
 A. No, sir ; when we abandoned the north track we 
 abandoned it from Hamburgh to BuiBEalo ; that is what 
 we do ; but the trouble was the Tifft fiat. 
 
 Q. You abandoned the north track within three years 
 from Hamburgh to Buffalo? 
 
 loO-« 
 
 A. I thmk we have. 
 
 Q. Will you testify absolutely? 
 
 A. I will testify absolutely, except iny memory of 
 dates. 
 
 Q. Will you testify that you abandoned the north 
 track absolutely from Hamburgh to Buffalo since you 
 have been connected with the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. I have, yes, sir, owing to trouble from water. 
 
 Q. How far is Hamburgh ? I8O3 
 
 A. About ten miles. 
 
 Q. From where ? 
 
 A. Buffalo. 
 
 Q. What point in Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Buffalo depot we measure from; I have measured 
 it, and the mile post is this side of Hamburgh. 
 
 Q. Can you give the elevation above low water in 
 Lake Erie of the land of Gen. Howard's farm where the 
 Lake Shore crosses it ? 
 
452 
 
 1804 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you give the elevation of any point on your 
 road south of BuiFalo River ? 
 
 A. 1 don't carry those things in my head. 
 
 Q. Have you any profile here that will show it ? 
 
 A. We have a profile here, but I wouldn't say it 
 would show that ; it was not taken in reference to that, 
 and I would not say that it would show it ? 
 
 Q. How high is your track, say at the Bufialo Creek 
 
 1805 Railroad crossing, above low water in Lake Erie ? 
 
 A. Well in the neighborhood of twelve feet. 
 
 Q. It is so on the profile ? 
 
 A. Well, I don't say that entirely from the profile, 
 because I didn't make it, and I don't know that the base 
 line is assumed correctly on the profile at water level, 
 because there was nothing said about water when it was 
 made ? 
 
 Q. What is the base line of levels on the Lake Shore 
 """ road in reference to low water in Lake Erie, or in refer- 
 ence to tide-water ? 
 
 A. Well, we call our base line the ordinary water level 
 of Lake Erie ; that is our base line. 
 
 Q. Now, what is the elevation of the Bufialo Creek 
 crossing as shown on tliat profile ( " Exhibit 5 " ) ? 
 
 A. About twelve feet and twenty-one one-hundredths 
 above the base line of the profile. Now, I don't say that 
 this base line is any particular water level of Lake Erie, 
 because 1 don't know ; I presume it is an assumed base 
 line ; it is either an assumed base line or a base line 
 arrived at fi-om taking some bench mark, which may not 
 be accurate. 
 
 Q. How long has the Bufialo Creek Railroad been 
 built? 
 
 A. I should say 187L 
 
 Q. Ten years ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Hawks xj 453 
 
 Q. Have you ever kuown the tracks of the Buffalo 1808 
 Creek Railroad to be under water ? 
 
 A. I don't know that I have, no, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever known that road to be impeded in 
 its operation by water ? 
 
 A. T don't know anything about the Buffalo Creek 
 Road, except immediately in the vicinity of its crossing 
 with our road. 
 
 Q. And have you ever known the crossing of the 
 Buffalo Creek Road with the Lake Shore Road to be cov- 1809 
 ered with water? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The map here which is produced, and marked 
 " B " for identification, showed the Lake Shore land as 
 it was marked in yellow, did you not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think it shows our land, so far as it 
 shows it all, correctly. 
 
 By Mr. Greene : What do you say as to the practica- 
 bility of using this triangle for yard purposes ? — is it 
 available, or is it too short ? — how many cars in length 
 would it contain? 
 
 A. We are using at present all of that triangle for 
 yard purposes that is practically available, with switches 
 from the Lake Shore main track, without crossing the 
 Erie crossing ; you will see how these switches come out ; 
 they leave the Lake Shore main tracks with our standard 
 frogs and switches, and come out here one after the other, . j,-! -i 
 and to use the next track, to come out south here, it 
 would be so short that it wouldn't hold a train, and we 
 have all the tracks in there now that we can get out 
 without we put the switch south of the Erie crossing, in 
 which case we would have to switch everything over the 
 Erie crossing, the same as we do now. 
 
 Q. So that even if it was possible or practicable, 
 which you say it is not, to fill that triangle with tracks. 
 
454 
 
 1812 it would not aiFect the necessity of switching across the 
 Erie tracks and the point of the proposed route as now ? 
 
 A. It would rather increase the necessity, because to 
 fill this triangle with tracks, if possible, would be to fill 
 it with stub-tracks, and to get anything over from those 
 stub-tracks it would have to be switched over the Lacka- 
 wanna and Erie crossing, which would make more 
 switching than now. 
 
 Q. Would make more switching over their proposed 
 
 1813 line than there is at present if it was used? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When you came upon the Lake Shore road, was 
 it a single or a double-track road ? 
 
 A. It was known as a single-track road ; it was double 
 tracked from Buffalo to Cleveland in 1872 ; I had charge 
 of the grading on the double track. 
 
 Q. And was the Erie a single track also ? 
 
 A. The Erie was a single track across our tracks also. 
 
 Q. And the crossing then existed ? 
 
 A. And the crossing then existed ; this yard has 
 mostly been built since. 
 
 Q. The increase of tracks and the increase in traffic 
 has continued from day to day to increase the difficulties 
 at that point, has it; the difficulties growing out of the 
 crossing there ? 
 
 A. We have only a single track from the Erie cross- 
 ing to our depot for passenger trains now, which is a dis- 
 advantage we have been trying to obviate for sometime, 
 but have not seen a plausible solution of the thing yet ; 
 but the business has increased here from month to month 
 and from year to year, and the increase of tracks has 
 been owing to the increase of business, and as the busi- 
 ness increased the difficulties at that crossino- also in- 
 creased, with the delays and detentions ; they are greater 
 by the increase of business than they were at the time I 
 came on the road. 
 
Hammond.] 455 
 
 Q. And you have made all the improvements and 1816 
 alterations there within your power, as you understand 
 it, to relieve it, as far as possible, from the diflSculties 
 caused by the Erie crossing there ? 
 
 A. Well, I don't know as I would say we have made 
 all the improvements that is possible, because we have 
 some other things in contemplation now that may help 
 us a little ; all that have been made have been made with 
 a view to transact the bnsiness with as little delay as 
 possible. 1817 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. I suppose the business of the 
 Lake Shore Road ebbs and flows with the other business 
 of the country ; in flush times you do more business and 
 in hard times you do less ? 
 
 A. I suppose that is so, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. Is there not, apart from any 
 ebb and flow in the business of your hne, has there not 
 been a steady normal growth ? ^^-^^ 
 
 A. The business is very much greater than it was 
 when I first came on the road ; that is, what we call a 
 dull time now, in former years we would have called a 
 very busy time, and what we call a busy time now, for- 
 merly we would call a rush, and what we call a rush 
 now is the most constant use of all our facilities. 
 
 John S. Hammond, recalled on behalf of the peti- 
 tioner and examined by Mr. Milburn, testified as follows: 1^19 
 
 Q. Is this transfer-house indicated on the map " Ex- 
 hibit 3 " in service now, although there is no longer a 
 transfer of freight made necessary by the Erie being a 
 different gauge from the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; we use it a good deal. 
 
 Q. How does it come to be used ? 
 
 A. It is used on account of freight being mixed ; 
 that is, freight for different points necessary to unload to 
 
456 
 
 1830 distribute in the proper cars, and also on account of 
 crippled cars ; there are various reasons why we have to 
 use it. 
 
 Q. And does that keep that transfer-house pretty 
 busily used? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon spoke of impediments to the business restrict- 
 ing you at the Ohio street basin, that jo\i lost business; 
 can you give us instances of how business will arise in 
 1821 the city of Buffalo which you can only take by getting 
 your cars out quickly, and as free from obstruction as 
 possible ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; at certain seasons of the year a very 
 large amount of grain is offered to us, and the railroad 
 transportation lines are all full, they are working up to 
 their capacity ; a man would come and tender us fifty or 
 sixty or a hundred thousand bushels of grain if we could 
 get it right off ; if we can't dispose of it promptly he 
 io** will give it to somebody else, in some other way — make 
 some other disposition of it. 
 
 Q. That would be one hundred to one himdred and 
 fifty cars of grain ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Such impediments as these, limiting your capacity 
 to get rid of freight, at times interposes to deprive vou 
 of business of that character? 
 ^ A. Yes, sir, prevents our loading all the cars we could 
 
 if we were not obstructed. 
 
 By Com. Clark: Q. To recur to the subject of de- 
 lays at the crossing of which you have spoken, 1 will ask 
 you if all of the transfer business between the Lake 
 Shore and Erie was wholly removed from this Sandusky 
 street crossing, and done at some other place, how much 
 of the present delays at this place would be removed? 
 
 A. Well, that would not affect it so very much, be- 
 cause our main business crosses those tracks, the Lake 
 
Hammond.] 457 
 
 Shore business crosses the main tracks, passing back- 1824 
 wards and forwards, and ours crosses theirs, all the busi- 
 ness going to and coming from there crosses those tracks, 
 the switching business would affect it of course some, but 
 what we call the main movement would be just the same 
 in that case as it is now. 
 
 Q. Suppose this transferring and everything of that 
 character was taken away, and it was simply the Erie 
 tracks going through, and the Lake Shore track going 
 through? 1835 
 
 A. It would make a great deal of difference. 
 
 Q. What proportion should you say? 
 
 A. Well, nearly half, if you could take the business west 
 of that track, what we call west, that comes in from the 
 west, to do all that switching, it would make a great dif- 
 ference ; if you took it across the track, and went east 
 with it, would have almost the same thing, although it 
 would be relieved considerably. 
 
 Q. In the case which has been stated to you, would 
 the delays be the same amount as they would be at any 
 other crossing where an equal and similar business was 
 done hj the two roads, would the delays be the same as 
 at any other crossing, assuming that you have a similar 
 amount of business by the two roads, take away this 
 question of difficulties of doing business in your yard ; 
 take away all the yards and all the switches and the 
 transfer business, then would there be any more delay igg^ 
 there than there would be at any other place where a 
 similar amount of switching is done ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You may now state what proportion, in your judg- 
 ment, of the delays you have spoken of, is due to the 
 switching whicli has been spoken of in the transferring 
 of business from one road to the other? 
 ' A. Well, sir, I don't know, I would hardly like to 
 
458 
 
 182S give an opinion about that, there is a good deal to figure 
 on, I sliould say it would make a half difference anyway. 
 
 Q. Does not this Lake Shore yai'd, aU the business 
 tliat is done there in making up and distributing the 
 traiiis, the exchange business that is done here between 
 the Lake Shore and the Erie, and the transfer freight 
 house business, more than double the delays that would 
 exist if the two lines simply crossed each other, and tliis 
 amount of business passed over them? 
 1S29 A. Yes, sir, it does double it. 
 
 Q. Well, does it not more than double it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think it more than doubles it. 
 
 Q. Does not all the switching, and going backwards 
 and forwards, and inajiing up the trains, introduce an 
 element into the crossing which multiplies the delay far 
 more than if simply the trains were coming out full, 
 loaded trains, passing over at the crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, but you have sut one thing in favor of 
 ''"'' tlie switching, the switcli engines will stop and get out of 
 the way, while yon have got to wait for freight and pas- 
 senger trains ; the yard-master is here, and he will know 
 more about this question than I do ; these trains come in 
 long trains, going down through slowly, while the switch- 
 ing is done in a different way ; of course in operating it 
 we can see why we are bothered, and we see also that it 
 affects us differently at different times ; I should hate to 
 1 ^Qi §^^® ^^ estimate, because I am not tliere enough to see 
 it all. 
 
 James Baeeett, sworn on behalf of the petitioner, 
 and examined by ilr. Milburn, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. You are the yard-master of the Erie company, as 
 we call it, at this point in question ? 
 A. General yard-master in Buffalo. 
 Q. And is this place indicated on this map "Exhibit 3" 
 
Barrett.] 459 
 
 part of the system ot tracks, so far as the Ei'ie is con- 1832 
 cerned, within your jurisdiction ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And are you there a good deal of youi- time ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, from two to three times a day back and 
 forth. 
 
 Q. What are the duties of a yard-master? 
 
 A. Making np of all trains bound east and west, dis- 
 tributing of all town freight, waiting on freight-houses, 
 supplying cars for elevators, waiting on coal yards, des- 1833 
 patching all freight trains east and west out of Buffalo. 
 
 Q. Then the movement of all cars and trains, so far 
 as the Erie is concerned, at this point, is within the line 
 of your duty ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And all the working of trains that goes on there 
 you are the chief of? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And how long have you been in that position ? 
 
 A. I have been general yard-master for nearly a 
 year. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in that department ? 
 
 A. Two years. 
 
 Q. How long have you been acquainted with this 
 system of tracks here ? 
 
 A. Eight years. 
 
 Q. How much a day are you there? 
 
 A. Oh, probably three hours a day in the aggregate. 
 
 Q. Watching and directing the movement of cars? 
 
 A. Cars and trains. 
 
 Q. This is a place where you do your exchange busi- 
 ness with the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The Lake Shore Company have a yard-master? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who is he ? 
 
460 
 
 1836 A. Mr. Wabath is general yard-master of the Lake 
 Shore road. 
 
 Q. Who is under him ? 
 
 A. John Latchtbrd is directly under him. 
 
 Q. What are the general rules of working the target 
 there with reference tu trains getting the crossing? 
 
 A. Well, no freight train is allowed to cross there on 
 a passenger train's time. 
 
 Q. If an Erie freight train comes np to the crossing 
 
 1837 and a Lake Shore passenger train is due there, although 
 not in sight, can the freight train take the crossing ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; the man in charge of the target will not 
 give it to us. 
 
 Q. You have to wait until the passenger train comes 
 along or until some word is received that she is late? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any card time on the trains that pass 
 
 over the Erie at this point ? 
 
 1838 A TJ • 
 A. JNo, sir. 
 
 Q. iSTo passenger trains pass over the Erie road at 
 this point? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And the passenger trains that you have to wait 
 for are simply the Lake Shore passenger trains ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, as between freight trains, what is the rule ? 
 
 2ggg A. The Lake Shore takes the right of way from ns, 
 
 when we have a train there and they have a train there 
 
 the Lake Shore takes the preference, gets it from the 
 
 man at the target, that means a through freight train. 
 
 Q. Talking about a through freight train, if a Lake 
 Shore and an Erie train is approaching the crossing, the 
 Lake Shore takes the crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you call approaching within sight ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; within sight. 
 
Barrett. J 461 
 
 Q. And what is the range of vision there of the tar- 1840 
 get-man ? 
 
 A. He can see a west-bound train from the target to 
 the round-house. 
 
 Q. How far is that ? 
 
 A. Well, I could not say exactly, it is between a 
 thousand and two thousand feet, the Lake Shore round- 
 house. 
 
 Q. And an east-bound train he can see how far ? 
 
 A. He can see an east-bound train the other side of 18-11 
 the Buffalo Ci'eek Bridge. 
 
 Q. How far is that? 
 
 A. I could not say. 
 
 Q. Give us a rough guess, two thousand feet 'i 
 
 A. I would not like to guess, I have no idea of the 
 distance ; I guess about two or three thousand feet, when 
 I said in sight I meant about as far as the Buffalo Creek 
 Bridge. 
 
 Q. A train approaching the track at the Buffalo ^°^'° 
 Creek bridge generally gets the track iu preference to 
 the Erie train crossing, no matter how near the Erie 
 train may be. 
 
 Q. And a west-bound Lake Shore train at the round- 
 house gets the target in preference to the Erie train, no 
 matter how near ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then that question of distance cannot come up in , 
 reference to Erie trains going over first ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Because if there is a Lake Shore train in sight it 
 gets the crossing? 
 
 A. Gets the crossing. 
 
 Q. What are the rules in regard to switching engines. 
 Have they to wait on the passenger trains and the 
 through freight trains just the same as the other trains ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the Lake Shore switch engine is not al- 
 
462 
 
 1844 lowed to use the track on passenger train's time unless 
 we have orders from the train dispatcher. 
 
 Q. And if the Lake Shore through trains are in sight 
 at the points you have indicated, are the switch engines 
 allowed to use the track ? 
 
 A. That I could not say, that is a matter regulated 
 in the Lake Shore yards. 
 
 Q. How about your Erie switch engines, are they al- 
 lowed to take the target when a Lake Shore train is in 
 
 1845 view at the points mentioned ? 
 
 A. No, the man at the target don't give us the tar- 
 get. 
 
 Q. When a Lake Shore train is in sight at the points 
 you have mentioned, neither your through freight trains 
 nor your switch engines are given the target? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How about switch engines of the Lake Shore and 
 the Erie together, how is that governed ? 
 
 1846 j^ Well, the Lake Shore has a double track there. 
 They can have two switch engines working, and one can 
 get the target in preference to us, and the other can pull 
 up there and work till they get their work done, and it 
 is a rule they shall get their work done after tliey get 
 the target when they once take it. They do considera- 
 ble switching on the crossing, sometimes delay us half 
 an hour. 
 
 Q. But a Lake Shore switcli engine comes up and 
 
 1 847 
 
 gets the target and auotlier switch engine of the Lake 
 
 Shore comes up, they keep the crossing till they both get 
 through ? 
 
 A. Until they both get through. A lake Shore train 
 going into the yard can have the track, a Lake Shore 
 switch engine can stand on their side-track in the yard, 
 and just as soon as the train will cross the switch engine 
 can pull right up and get the target away from us and 
 hold it. 
 
Barrett.] 463 
 
 Q. Do tlie Lake Shore switcli engines take any pref- 1848 
 erence over the passing; freight trains on the Erie? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that if a Lake Shore switch engine get this 
 crossing, and another switch engine comes up, they can 
 hold it until they both do their work, and in the mean- 
 time block your freight trains ? 
 
 A.. Block our freight ti-aics — yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As well as your switching ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; understand the target is always set for 1819 
 the Lake Shore ; it is always right for the Lake Shore, 
 and it is only given to us when the way is clear and the 
 target man tips the target. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Suppose the Erie gets the target ? 
 
 A. Then they take it, and work till they get through ; 
 if we get blocked either way, our men cut the crossing, 
 and let the Lake Shore have it if there is any trains 
 
 there waiting for it — through trains, or there is no chance 
 
 • • 1850 
 
 for us to get either way, as it somtimes happens there, 
 
 get crowded working both ways, working on a single 
 
 track, we open it, and let their switch engines do their 
 
 work ; we accommodate each other as much as possible. 
 
 By Mr. Milbnrn, resuming : Q. What do you say 
 as to the delays there imposed upon trains generally ? 
 
 A. Well, we have sometimes been there with two 
 and three trains ready to cross, and have to wait half or 
 three-quarters of an honr before we would get by. . „-, 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. Because of through freight 
 trains ? 
 
 A. Because of through trains, passenger trains and 
 switch engines in the. Lake Shore yard. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. Does such an occurrence hap- 
 pen often ? 
 
 A. In busy times on both roads it occurs quite fre- 
 quently ; we have by bad blockades at that point. 
 
464 
 
 18j2 By Mr. JMilbnrii, resuming : Q. And what is the 
 average of delays of trains ? 
 
 A. Well, that is a pretty hard thing to answer. 
 Q. Make a statement in your own way, just telling 
 us how these delays occur ? 
 
 A. Well, there are times when we have an engine at 
 Ohio street, or in the Ohio street yard, ready to go out 
 with 35 ears; it is a very bad place to start a train from, 
 and we may get the target before we start, pull up there, 
 1853 and any little obstacle that may turn up, and another en- 
 gine dodging in thei-e and stopping the engine coming 
 out, or may pull a draw-head out, or an engine may 
 stall; then we have to back way down again, and there 
 has been occasions when we have pulled out of that switch 
 three or four times before we would get over the cross- 
 ing, because we would be so long in getting there that 
 freight trains would show up and pull down over the 
 crossing ; the target taken away from ns, and the Lake 
 '"' Shore trains pull over ; we would have to back down 
 and get another start ; it takes an engine an hour and a 
 half, sometimes two hours, to get out of there with one 
 train on that account. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. You can see the target 
 from Ohio street ? 
 
 A. From Hamburgh street around the curve we can 
 see the target from the top of the car ; we (Jannot see it 
 ,o-- though, after we leave Hamburgh street, until we pull 
 up over Katharine street. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. How does blocking on 
 one side tend to block your railroad on the other side oi 
 the crossing ? 
 
 A. Well, we give engines coming from Ohio street 
 the right of way, when the target is right for an engine 
 coming from Ohio street ; engines coming the other way 
 have to go back to the junction and wait till they pull 
 
Barrett.] 465 
 
 out ; it detains sometimes two or three engines going 1856 
 both ways. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. It is only a single track 
 now? 
 
 A. It is only a single track now. 
 
 Q. The map shows it as a double track ? 
 
 A. It has not been connected yet. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. In other words, even with 
 a double track there, a block of your trains on the Ohio 
 street side of the crossing, that is, a block of trains com- 1857 
 ing from the Ohio street freight-house, and they not be- 
 ing able to get command the crossing, does it in a great 
 many cases tend to accumulate trains on the other side of 
 the crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is what I say ; the engines coming 
 down from Ohio street have the right of way, and they 
 don't allow the engines going toward Ohio street to cross 
 there till- that engine gets out ; we have to establish rules 
 for the men to work by on a single track. 1858 
 
 Q. But with a double track, that, I understand you, 
 to some extent would be alleviated ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. Wholly? 
 
 A. With a double track we would have the same use 
 on that crossing as the Lake Shore has — when we would 
 get the target for an engine coming from Ohio street, at 
 the same time an engine could use that crossing going in 
 the opposite direction. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. Is there a great deal of 
 switching done at this point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, a great deal of switching done there. 
 Q. In what business ? 
 
 A. In the delivery of west-bound freight to the Lake 
 Shore road ; also in the delivery of loaded cars to the 
 Delaware and Hudson Coal Company dock ; they have 
 a big trestle at Hamburgh street, and very often have to 
 
466 
 
 1860 use the Lake Shore crossing to take a train of empties 
 out of that dock ; when we are crowded at Ohio street 
 there is an accumulation of empties on the Delaware and 
 Hudson dock ; we have to nse the Lake Shore crossing 
 to relieve the Delaware and Hudson folks of their emp- 
 ties. 
 
 Q. Now, what switching is done, is there not a great 
 deal of switching done there by the Lake Shore people? 
 A. Oh, yes, sir. 
 
 1861 Q. Right over the crossing ? 
 
 A. Right over the crossing there is a great deal of 
 switching. 
 
 Q. In what business is that switching, generally ? 
 
 A. Generally the bulk of their switching on that 
 crossing is their east-bound business. 
 
 Q. Now, how ranch of the time do you say that that 
 crossing is occupied, either by cars actually crossing, or 
 by cars moving up to it that have command of the 
 crossing I 
 
 A. Almost constantly in use. 
 
 Q. Do you mean night and day ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If you were lumping up the number of hours that 
 it is in use during the day, what would you say ? 
 
 A. Well, from fifteen to eighteen hours, to lump it 
 all up, that it is in nse during the day. 
 ,o^-. Q- Then the times that it is not in use is that scat- 
 tered through the day in intervals? 
 
 A. Intervals ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Varying from what? 
 
 A. Well, I think it is safe to say that that crossing is 
 never idle fifteen minutes, more than fifteen minutes, 
 at any one time through the day. Through the night 
 there are times when it is not quite so busy. 
 
 Q. Through the night there are longer intervals ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 1862 ,..._,•.,,„ 2 
 
Barrett.] 467 
 
 Q. And of course, I suppose there may be slack times 1864 
 in the business of the roads 'i 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. When the intervals are lonajer? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But in your busy times, when freight is running 
 heavy on both roads, tlien you would say tliat the inter- 
 vals are seldom longer than fifteen minutes? 
 
 A. In tiie day-time. 
 
 Q. Does tlie delay there, of your trains, delay every 1-865 
 train between the elevator or the terminus of this freight 
 track and the Ohio street freight-iiouse ? No, 1 will ask 
 you, a point how far easi? 
 
 A. A delay at that crossing, and a train getting out 
 from Ohio street, will sometimes hold three or four en- 
 gines that are going in the opposite direction. 
 
 Q. That is, that are coming from Exchange street ? 
 
 A. East Buffalo to Ohio street. 
 
 By Mr. Locke: Q. Tliat could all be remedied by a 
 double ti'ack, could it not? 
 
 A. It could be materiall}' clianged. 
 
 By JNIr. Milburn, resuming: Q. If you have a double 
 track there, and the Lake Shore has control of the cross- 
 ing, that certainly does not remedy your delay to these 
 trains that are coming? 
 
 A. Not when the Lake Shore has the target. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. The same cause that delays 
 your trains going out from Ohio street, delays your 
 trains going into Ohio sti-eet? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Whether your track is single or double? 
 
 A. Whether our track is single or double ; yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. Clark: Q. But I understand you that when 
 you have a double track, you can use the track going 
 both ways at the same time ? 
 
468 
 
 1868 A. Yes, sir ; but when they are detained on one side 
 they would be on the other. 
 
 Q. But you will be able, with your double track, to 
 block the Lake Shore business a little more than you do 
 now? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we will have the same chance to use the 
 crossing that we do now. 
 
 Q. Take another grade-crossing just at the point in- 
 dicated on the map by the Lackawanna, with that a 
 
 1869 grade-crossing over there of a main passenger line into 
 the city of BuflFalo, a coal line, their city freight line, 
 what would you say as to the effect of that upon doing 
 your business there ? 
 
 A. It would throw us back so that we could do just 
 about — well, we could not do much more then than half 
 the business we are doing now. The business that lays 
 still now on account of crossing the Lake Shore would 
 be just doubled, that is, there will be double the stand- 
 18^0 still. 
 
 Q. That would depend, of course, to some extent, 
 upon the amount of business done by the Lackawanna 
 Road? 
 
 A. Exactly. 
 
 Q. But you are judging that how ? 
 
 A. Taking that at about the same business the Lake 
 Shore B,oad has. 
 1871 ^' "^^^^ would stop not only your through trains, 
 that Lackawanna crossing, but would stop all the switch- 
 ing there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And all the switching of the Lake Shore Road 
 there ? 
 
 A. Where they use it there is a delivery there, we 
 deliver our west-bound freight on that, and that would 
 cut that in two; an engine would probably sometimes 
 lose fifteen or twenty minutes getting down there. 
 
Barrett.] 469 
 
 Q. That is, in approaching on the main track of the 1873 
 Erie to go to the dock track, slie might lose fifteen 
 minutes there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And then going further down and switching onto 
 the dock track, and coming back she has to cross the 
 Lackawanna again ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And may be delayed there at that crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 1873 
 
 Q. Then what becomes of her, does she draw it out 
 again from the dock track ? 
 
 A. No, she delivers it here to the Lake Shore on the 
 dock track ; we take our freight for delivery to the Lake 
 Shore road off, and back over towards Ohio street, and 
 put it in there; she might wait fifteen minutes for the 
 crossing at the dock-track crossing of the Lackawanna 
 and then pull down and get over this switch to the dock 
 track, and be ready to deliver her freight here on the ' 
 dock track; a Delaware, Lackawanna and Western train - 
 might again have the crossing and detain us fifteen min- 
 utes more ; the rule is, that all trains come to a stand- 
 still at that crossing ; that would all depend on heft of the 
 train ; an, engine going there, and any kind of grade to 
 draw a train on, and has thirty or forty cars come to a 
 dead stop, and wait for the target, to stop again before it 
 would get over the ci'ossing, it is safe to say she would 
 take ten minutes, at the least calculation, with a big train ; 
 it takes trains quite a while to get over those crossings. 
 
 Q. Taking the amount of business that you have to 
 do, just as it is carried on there, and with another road, 
 with the Lackawanna road coming over there, what 
 would you say as to being able to get your business 
 done; and we will take it in busy times, when the press 
 of business is, what do you say as to being able to get 
 your business done ? 
 
470 
 
 1876 A. Well, if the Lackawanna would do all the waiting 
 on both sides of the crossing, we could do the business 
 the same as we do now. 
 
 Q. Let ns see if that is correct; the Lackawanna 
 waits for you until they get the crossing, it then gets the 
 target, and in the meantime you have a train coming 
 upon your track, and the Lake Shore has a train coming 
 up on its track ; now, neither of you can get that target 
 until the Lackawanna gets through using it? 
 
 1877 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. The Lake Shore train having come up after yours 
 came up, then yon can't get it until the Lake Shore gets 
 through with it ? 
 
 A. Exactly. 
 
 Q. So that the LMcka wanna not only delayed you 
 
 under that state of facts until they got through with the 
 
 crossing, but it has also delayed 3'ou until the Lake Siiorc 
 
 gets through with the crossing, because there would have 
 
 '"^ been no Lake Shore train there '. 
 
 A. The Lake Shore would cross while the Lacka- 
 wanna were crossing, if the Lackawanna was not there; 
 if the Lackawanna was not there there would be no 
 Lake Shore there. 
 
 Q. You would have got over before the Lake Shore 
 got us ; but you lose the crossing, because the Lake Shore 
 has come up while the Lackawanna has the target? 
 „^ A. Yes, sir ; we would lose in that way, but if they 
 did all the waiting, that is, when we got ready if they 
 were out of the way, I don't see that we would lose any- 
 thing hj their crossing, any more than they would have 
 to wait and use the crossing when we or the Lake Shore 
 did not want .to use it; when they had it, of course we 
 couldn't get it. 
 
 Q. You can't get the crossing when they have it ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
Barrett.] 471 
 
 Q. And if yon conio np with a train while they have 1880 
 it, you are delayed then '( 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And if a Lake Shore train comes up in the mean- 
 time, then they take it before you do? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that the Lackawanna crossing there has im- 
 posed both its own delay and tlie delay of the Lake 
 Shore on you at that time ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it will in that case. 1881 
 
 Q. So that you can scarcely say that a road can go 
 through there, and do all the waiting, and not interfere 
 with your business, can j'ou? 
 
 A. No, sir, because they couldn't always do it; that 
 is so. 
 
 Q. You can't arrange your business here so as to be 
 using the crossing part of the time, and part of the time 
 not using it? 
 
 A. No, sir. 1883 
 
 Q. You are using it at difierent times all along during 
 each day? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Taking any fair arrangement between the three 
 roads there, and with that new crossing going over, tlien 
 what do you say, in busy times, about your being able to 
 transact the business of your road there ? 
 
 A. Well, we couldn't begin to do it as well as we do 
 with one crossing; that is, crossing simply the Lake 
 Shore ; the detention, I suppose, would all depend ou 
 the amount of trains tlie Lackawanna took over there. 
 
 Q. And if they were doing a large business too at 
 that time, why then the delay and obstruction would be 
 increased very seriously ? 
 
 A. Would be increased seriously, yes, sir. 
 
472 
 
 188-1: Cros/> cxaminatiim, by Mr. Locke: 
 
 Q. Would it simplify matters if one man had control 
 of the three crossings, of all the ci'ossings there ? 
 
 A. I gness one man would have to control them anj' 
 way. 
 
 Q. If one target man had the control, would it sim- 
 plify matters? 
 
 A. That is the only w&y that the three crossings can 
 be worked. 
 1885 Q_ You have charge of the track at the Buffalo 
 Creek crossing ? 
 
 A. The Buffalo Creek crossing on the Lake Shore. 
 
 Q. The Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia cross- 
 ing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you experience delays there '. 
 
 A. Yes, sir, but we have full right of way there. 
 1 tisr Q* ^o^') '^' ^^ ^^""'^ total of this business to be per- 
 formed by the Lackawanna road, and the Erie Railway 
 should not exceed the present business at that point, the 
 matters would not be greatly complicated, would they ; 
 assuming that the sum total oF the business done \iy the 
 Lackawanna Road and Erie Railway should not exceed 
 the present Erie Railway' business at that point, would 
 the crossing be more difficult than it is at present i 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 1887 ^- ^^^^^ tlie Lackawanna road is built, if the Erie 
 road has only half as raucii business as it has now, in yonr 
 judgment, the crossing will be just as difficult as it is 
 now ? 
 
 A. Just as difficult as it is now with two crossings. 
 
 Q. Say after the Lackawanna crossing is built, the 
 business of the Erie road can be cut in two, and still the 
 Erie Railroad would be as much trouble as at present? 
 
 A. I think the Erie Railroad could do that business 
 a great deal better than two roads could do it. 
 
Barrett xj 473 
 
 Q. Do yon have charge of the handling of the freight 1888 
 at the Alabama street crossings ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. ■• City freight ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you have any delays there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Very serious ones? 
 
 A. Well, yes, sir ; we are considerably delayed there, 
 we cannot do anything when we want to. 1889 
 
 Q. The Erie Railroad has never built any over-cross- 
 ing there ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon are very much delayed at the Buffalo, New 
 York and Philadelphia crossing, at times ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I don't say thnt, we have the full right of 
 way there. 
 
 Q. So your trouble in this particular case is, that you 
 have not the right of way? loW 
 
 A. The business, there is more of it. 
 
 Q. Do you think there are more trains pass there 
 than at the Alabama street crossing? 
 
 A. More trains. 
 
 Q. Pass this Sandusky street crossing, than the Ala- 
 bama street crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, there are. 
 
 Q. You think there are ? 
 
 T T' • 1891 
 
 A. les, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many passenger trains run out 
 of the Erie depot any day? 
 
 A. Not exactly, in the neighborhood of twenty-five 
 or twenty-six. 
 
 Q. That is your best judgment ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many run out of the New York 
 Central ? 
 
474 
 
 1892 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you dou't know which crossing is used the 
 most, the Alabama street or yours ? 
 
 A. I know there is more freight passes over this 
 crossing tlian there does over the other ; I was not mak- 
 ing the answer with reference to passenger trains. 
 
 Q. How long have you been the yard-master there ? 
 
 A. Nearly a year, the general yard-master. 
 
 Q. Do you have charge of the yards down at the 
 
 1893 International Bridge ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. "Who has charge down there ? 
 
 A. ilr. Mosher. 
 
 Q. How much do you think that a double-track cross- 
 ing would facilitate the business of the Erie, how much 
 would it expedite the business of the Erie at that point ? 
 
 A. It would do away with about probably one-third 
 of the delays. 
 ^^^■^ Q. Of the present delays 'i 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. To Erie business ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By 3Ir. Lorke, resuming : Q. How long have you 
 operated ^ 
 
 A. I mean a double-track crossing without a third 
 crossing. 
 iQQf; Q- There never has been anything but a single-track 
 crossing in there, up to the present time ' 
 
 A. Up to the last two or three months there has been 
 a crossing put in there, it was a single-track altogether 
 before that. 
 
 Q. Y'ou never operated a double-track crossing as to 
 now. 
 
 A. Not yet. 
 
 Q. You are just about to do it? 
 
Barrett x] 475 
 
 A. Yes, sir, we are ready to do it at any time we get 1896 
 it fixed. 
 
 Re-direct examination, by Mr. Milburn : 
 
 Q. You say that a double track there will decrease 
 your delays one-third? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is because it gives you moi'e command of 
 the crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. -j^gg^ 
 
 Q. And when you have it with a train one way you 
 can use it with trains the other way ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that necessarily increases the delays to the 
 Lake Shore? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Because when you have it in command that way 
 the other road will have to wait for you until you get 
 through ? 1898 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Your answer was purely with reference to your 
 own business? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And not with reference to the fresh delays that 
 would be imposed on the Lake Shore business ? 
 
 A. No reference to the Lake Shore business. 
 
 Re-cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 1899 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that you cannot cross the 
 track with two trains in opposite directions ? 
 
 A. That is what I say. 
 
 Q. You wonld transact twice the business over that 
 crossing in five minutes — you would now? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You could get two trains across there with one 
 target, while if you had one crossing you would have to 
 have two targets? 
 
476 
 
 1900 A. Yes, sir; it makes it about one-third. 
 
 Q. And in that way you could do one-third more 
 business without delaying the Lake Shore any more ? 
 
 A. We can have two trains going over one crossing 
 in opposite directions, and they will hold the crossing 
 longer than one train going in one direction ; if we did 
 not have a double track the Lake Shore would take the 
 target before we would get there with another train. 
 
 Q. Do you know liow long it takes you to go through 
 
 1901 there? 
 
 A. About five minutes a train, east-bound. 
 
 Q. How long with a train west-bound? 
 
 A. That depends upon how the yard at Hamburgh 
 street is. 
 
 Q. How long does it take your train to cross the 
 Lake Shore tracks, a train of thirty cars? 
 
 A. It takes them about five minutes, thirty cars. 
 
 Q. That would be ten seconds to a car going about 
 twenty feet, where do you count the five minutes from ? 
 
 A The time we strike the target until we get over 
 with the thirty cars. 
 
 Q. You think that takes you five minutes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you pretty sure of that ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever timed it ? 
 ^q „ A. I never timed it, but it is pretty accurate I guess; 
 it will average that. 
 
 Q. How fast do you go ? 
 
 A. Four to five or six miles an hour ; about as fast 
 as we can go with a train of thirty cars, less than that 
 probably, sometimes ; not as fast as a man walks. 
 
 Q. How fast is five miles an hour ? How many feet 
 a minute, have you any idea ? 
 
 A. I would have to figure that. 
 
 Q. It is about ninety feet a minute ? 
 
Barrett.] 477 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 1904 
 
 Q. So you think it takes you iive minutes to get 
 across there? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I will stick to Ave minutes. 
 Q. How far is it across there, across the crossing? 
 A. I don't know ; I couldn't say ; they have got two 
 or three tracks to cross .there. 
 Q. It is not over forty feet ? 
 A. Forty or iifty feet. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know of an interval of five minutes 1905 
 when the Lackawanna train could get across, if it 
 happened to be on the spot ? 
 
 A. I am seldom around there when there is nothing 
 doing. 
 
 Q. Five miles an hour would be five times ninety 
 feet — one mile an hour would be about ninety feet a 
 minute ? 
 
 A. Four hundred and fifty feet a minute. 
 Q. Five miles an hour would be about four hundred 
 and fifty feet a minute ? 
 A. Yes, sir; we don't go as fast as that. 
 Q. As fast as five miles an hour ? 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. You would not come here and swear that you have 
 not seen times in the course of your long experience, 
 when a Lackawanna train would not have an opportunity 
 to slip across there without interfering with the Lake . „ ,^ 
 Shore or Erie trains ? 
 A. No ; I would not. 
 
 Q. There are a good many such instances down 
 there when a Lackawanna train if ready could get across 
 there ? 
 A. Yes, sir'; I think they could. 
 
 He-direct examination, by Mr. Milburn : 
 
 Q. There would be more delays imposed by this 
 
478 
 
 1908 Lackawanna crossing in view of its being a passenger 
 line, if the same rules apply to it that apply to the Lake 
 Shore trains, that you cannot take their train time, you 
 would have to wait for them as you do for the Lake 
 Shore trains ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; Lake Shore trains ought to have the 
 right of way over freight trains. 
 
 Q. Do you think they could run a passenger line 
 over there if thej' never got the right q£ way until you 
 
 1909 -were both through using that crossing ? 
 
 A. If they did not have the right of way they would 
 have a good time going over there. 
 Q. With passenger trains especially? 
 
 Re-cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Would it benefit the Erie road materially to have 
 this crossing moved one hundred and twenty feet to the 
 south, would it materially benefit the E)-ie road ? With 
 
 1910 yQ^^ it would not make much difference whether the' 
 crossing was where it is located or where it is proposed 
 to be altered? 
 
 A. No, I don't think it would make much material 
 difference. 
 
 Q. That is, whether both crossings are considered as 
 grade-crossings or over-crossings? Suppose they are 
 both considered as over-crossings, would it make much 
 difference with the Erie Railway? 
 
 A. I guess it wouldn't make any, if we had all the 
 room we wanted to work in. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. I believe you have stated that a 
 considerable portion of the delay which you have ex- 
 perienced at this crossing is occasioned by the transac- 
 tion of the transfer business between the two roads the 
 Erie and Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; considerable. 
 
 Q. Supposing that transfer and exchange business 
 
Barrett x] 479 
 
 between these two roads should be removed to some 1912 
 other point, and done wholly at some other point, what 
 proportion of the delays would be removed by reason of 
 the removal of that business ? 
 
 A. That is a pretty difficult question to ajiswer; 
 there is a great deal of work to be put aside if that thing 
 is taken out. 
 
 Q. Can yon give us a fair approximation ? 
 
 A. I don't think a man could answer that with any 
 sense of accuracy, without taking the figures. 19^3 
 
 Q. Would you have any more delay if it was re- 
 moved, than you would if this crossing were out in 
 Cheektowaga ? 
 
 A. We wouldn't have as much delay if nothing but 
 through business was done there ; it would be materially 
 reduced. 
 
 Q. How much of the time is taken up by the trans- 
 fer, as to the delay which is occasioned, by this transfer 
 
 1914 
 and exchange business? 
 
 A. I should judge there was about one-fourth; it 
 would reduce it about one-fourth. 
 
 Q. It would take away the transfer and exchange 
 business and reduce delays one-fourth ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. Do you mean take 
 away the yard business ? 
 
 A. That would take away the yard business ; the ^g^^ 
 transfer and exchange business would take away their 
 yard business. 
 
 Q. Suppose they should take away all these tracks, 
 take the tracks away ? 
 
 A. Take this track here that we receive freight on at 
 this end of the track, it is no material detention to us. 
 
 Q. Take away all this transfer and exchange busi- 
 ness, take away all this switching of the Lake Shore in 
 this yard, and put it somewhere else, at East Buffalo, 
 
480 
 
 1916 say, and then, with merely tlirongh trains of tlie Erie and 
 Lake Shore running over there, how much would the de- 
 lay be diminislied ? 
 
 A. I couldn't answer for the Lake Shore business at 
 all. All I could answer for would be what we delivered 
 there. There is a good deal of freight taken out of the 
 trains that is distributed on their town tracks, that I 
 don't know anything about, any more than I know they 
 are handling it. 
 
 1917 Q. You observed the use of that crossing by them 
 and by you, and the only thing is any approximation 
 that yon conld give as a man acquainted with that 
 locality ? 
 
 A. I would not say it would reduce it much more 
 than one-fourth in our crossings alone ; it would reduce 
 it one-fourth ; it would make some extra difference in 
 the Lake Shore business that 1 would not give any opin- 
 ion upon. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. Have you formed any judgment 
 as to what place could be adopted to relieve the diffi- 
 culties that you have spoken of here as to the re-arrang- 
 ing of tracks, have you ever thought about it? 
 
 A. I have not given it a thought, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. That is not within your juris- 
 diction ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 1919 
 
 William A. Haven, recalled by tlie petitioners, and 
 
 examined by Mr. Milburn, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. There has been a good deal of talk here about 
 other crossings; you are pretty well acquainted with the 
 crossings in the city ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the general shape of them. 
 
 Q. Are there any other crossings in this city such as 
 the Lackawanna proposed at that point? 
 
 A. I don't know of any. 
 
Haven.] 481 
 
 Q. Is there another grade-crossing that you know of 1930 
 that is through a freight yard where switching is going 
 on, and the business tliat is going on at a point like this ? 
 
 A. I don't know of any. 
 
 Q. Take the crossing at Alabama street, what is that 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. It is the crossing of the two main tracks of the 
 Erie by the two main tracks of the Central, and just 
 west of the crossing of the Erie, there is one track which 
 runs into the freight-house, in which trains pass but one 1921 
 way only. 
 
 Q. That is how many tracks just cross each other? 
 
 A. Two tracks across two tracks. 
 
 Q. And these two tracks of the Erie are, with the 
 exception of its city business at the Louisiana street 
 freight-house, they are purely its passenger tracks? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 O.' No freight runs over these tracks except that 
 
 1922 
 freight to the Louisiana street freight-house ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What sort of a crossing is that ? 
 
 A. It is a diagonal crossing at an angle of about 
 twenty-six degrees. 
 
 Q. Is that a very different crossing as compared with 
 this right angle ? 
 
 A. Entirely different. 
 
 Q. In other words there comes in there this ques- 
 tion that the wheel does not leave the rail ? 
 
 A. The wheel has a continuous bearing. 
 
 Q. It does not leave the support of the rail ? 
 
 A. It does not leave the support of the rail. 
 
 Q. I think the other crossing that has been men- 
 tioned is the crossing of the Philadelphia road — that is a 
 crossing of what ? 
 
 A. A crossing of one track of the Philadelphia road, 
 their main track, by the two tracks, three tracks, of the 
 
482 
 
 1924 Erie ; that is the two main tracks and the city tracks, 
 that is not used but very little ; I don't know as it is 
 ever used ; I think it is very little ; the north track of 
 the Erie ; it is very little used on account of the target 
 and signal-house ; it is too close. 
 
 Q. What is the business, if you can state generally, 
 that is done over that crossing by the Philadelphia 
 Road, as compared with the business done at this cross- 
 ing? 
 
 1925 A. I haven't any figures at all, so I don't know what 
 freight they do, but it is comparatively small as com- 
 pared with the Lake Shore road, or compared with the 
 Erie at that point. 
 
 Q. Where is there another grade-crossing ? 
 
 A. There is a crossing at the Buffalo Creek road, 
 very nearly the same place. 
 
 Q. By what? 
 
 A. By the Erie. 
 19^^ Q. That is ^single track? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is a single track on which the same 
 track, the Buffalo Creek, which runs up to the New 
 York Central road, which is so seldom used that this 
 morning for half an honr there was a train standing on 
 the main track. 
 
 Q. That is the point where the Erie forms its con- 
 nection with the Buffalo Creek road to get to the lake ; 
 
 A. The Erie forms its connection eastward of that 
 track. 
 
 Q. Is there any other crossing in the city of Buffalo 
 that calls for any mention ? 
 
 A. The crossing of the Lake Shore by the Buffalo 
 Creek Railroad. 
 
 Q. That is a crossing of how many tracks of the 
 Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. Two tracks. 
 
 Q. By how many of the Buffalo Creek? 
 
Haven. J 483 
 
 A. One track. 1938 
 
 Q. And where; away from any yard or anything? 
 
 A. Out on the Tift farm. 
 
 Q. That is where nothing bnt through trains are ? 
 
 A. Nothing but the through trains on the Lake 
 Shore, and the liusiness of the Buffalo Creek road. 
 
 Q. At this Alabama street crossing, is there any 
 making up or the distribution of trains over that cross- 
 ing, or any switching done ? 
 
 A. I don't think there is any switching done here, 19^9 
 except, as I said before, they sometimes put a train 
 from our main track into our Louisiana street freight- 
 house. 
 
 Q. Is there any other crossing that you call to mind? 
 
 A. I call to mind the crossings at the International 
 Bridge ? 
 
 Q. The Erie Railway does cross the freight yard of 
 the Central where business is done that corresponds with 
 the business that is done here, is it not ? 
 
 A. At what point ? 
 
 Q. Does it not cross ? 
 
 A. They cross over the Central. 
 
 Q. They do cross the Central ? 
 
 A. The Erie crosses the Central. 
 
 Q. At a point where business is done similar in its 
 character to tlie business done at the crossing in ques- 
 tion here ? ^^„. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What sort of a crossing is that -at that point? 
 
 A. That is an over-crossing. 
 
 Q. Is that the only crossing that you know of in the 
 city of Buffalo that corresponds with the crossing pro- 
 posed by the Lackawanna? 
 
 A. That is the only one I have in mind : I don't 
 know of any other. 
 
484 
 
 1932 Q. What about the crossiDgs of the International 
 Bridge ? 
 
 A. The Erie International line crosses with one track 
 — a single track of the Central Eailroad. 
 
 Q. The Niagara Falls branch ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the Niagara Falls branch ; that is the 
 track on which they take their freight from East Buf- 
 falo to Tonawanda, and to Niagara Falls, and also it 
 crosses a double track of the Central Railroad at a point 
 
 1933 wliere all the business on the line between Buflalo and 
 Niagara Falls is done — Lockport. 
 
 Q. Is there any grade-crossing in the city of Buffalo 
 that has the same characteristics, that is not a simple 
 crossing as compared with this one proposed here, in 
 this case ? 
 
 A. I don't think of any, sir; I don't know of any. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 1^3* Q. The Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia crosses 
 you almost at a right angle ? 
 
 A. At an angle of about forty-five degrees. 
 
 Q. All the business that comes in on the Erie road 
 that goes over this crossing passes that point of intersec- 
 tion, does it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All the passenger business in addition that comes 
 in passes that point of intersection? 
 
 A. Yes, sn-. 
 
 Q. And all that goes out of Buffalo on the Lake 
 Shore road or from the passenger depot, goes out past 
 this Buff'alo, New York and Philadelphia road, does it 
 not? 
 
 A. All the transfer business of this crossing. 
 
 Q. It goes out over that Philadelphia crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Haven x ] 485 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with the location of the 1936 
 Philadelphia yards ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You know that they have a yard at Babcock 
 street ? 
 
 A. They have a yard out at Babcock street. 
 
 Q. It is 01) the north half of lot twenty-seven ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And all of thirty-two ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they have no yards across that way ; ^93''' 
 they make up their trains at that end. (Witness indi- 
 cates on map.) 
 
 Q. Don't you know that they have an Emslie street 
 yard on the west side of the Erie road ? 
 
 A. They have just made one. 
 
 Q. Haven't they had one there since the road was 
 constructed ? 
 
 A. I think not ? 
 
 Q. Don't you know that they have had a yard con- 
 sisting of four tracks, extending as far as Bond street, 
 ever since you have been in Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think they have had a yai'd there. 
 
 Q. Have they delivered all their local freight at the 
 Emslie street yard, as it is termed ? 
 
 A. I don't know what they have done down there ; it 
 is out of my line entirely. 
 
 Q. How many times a day will you say, in your -inoq 
 judgment, a Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia engine 
 passes the Erie tracks ? 
 
 A. That I couldn't make you a guess upon. 
 
 Q. Don't they pass you one hundred and Hfty times 
 every day? 
 
 A. I think not ; I don't know ; I haven't any idea. 
 
 Q. You have not any idea ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
486 
 
 1940 Q. Can jou tell how many trains you have that pass 
 the Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia crossing ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have heard how many passenger trains you 
 have ? 
 
 A. I don't know anything about it. 
 
 Q. You take the Alabama street crossing — thai is 
 made in contracted quarters ; yon are crowded for room 
 j^g^;^ at Alabama street, aren't jj-qu ? 
 
 A. Not particularly so. 
 
 Q. You think you have all the room that you want on 
 Alabama street ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Haven't you tried to buy lands tliere within a 
 year ? 
 
 A. Not at that crossing — not west of it. 
 
 1942 Q. Have you east of it, immediately in this vicinity? 
 A. Yes, sir, I think we have. 
 
 Q. And for the purpose of getting more facilities of 
 approaching that crossing ? 
 
 A. Not for approaching that crossing, not at all ; it 
 don't have anything to do with that crossing. 
 
 Q. Don't you know, sir, that more trains by thirty 
 per cent, pass the Alabama street crossing in every 
 
 twenty-four hours than pass the Sandusky street cross- 
 
 1943 ing? 
 
 A. I don't know anything about it, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you state which crossing passed the most 
 trains, sir. 
 
 A. No, sir, I cannot. 
 
 By Com. Clarke : Q. When was the Erie road con- 
 structed across the Lake Shore, at the point in question ? 
 
 A. I surely don't knoM', sir. 
 
Gorman xj 487 
 
 Jerey Gorman, sworn for petitioners and examined 1!^'44 
 by Mr. Milburn, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. You live in Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you employed about the 9th of July to 
 count the cars, the Erie cars, crossing the Lake Shore 
 crossing at Sandusky street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And did you keep a faithful account of them ? 
 . „ . 1945 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And put them down ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Put the figures down ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that one page of yours (presents book to wit- 
 ness) ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Give the dates and figures? ig^g 
 
 A. From July 9th to July 10th, went east 177, went 
 west 173, that is, including engines too ; July 10th, 7 
 p. M., to July 11th, 7 A. M., went east 85, went west 94 ; 
 July 11th, 7 P. 11., to July 12th, 7 a. m., went east 139, 
 went west 130; July 12th, 7 p. m., to July 13th, 7 A. m., 
 went east 275, went west 155 ; July 13th, 7 p. m., to July 
 14th, 7 A. M., went east 181, went west 177 ; July 14th, 7 
 p. M., to July 15th, 7 A. JL, went east 198, went west 118 ; 
 from July 15th, 7 P. M., to July 16th, 7 A. M., went east 1947 
 187, went west 238 ; July 16th, 7 p. m., to July 17th, 7 
 A. M., went east 138, went west 174 ; July 17th, 7 p. M., 
 to July 18th, 7 A. M., went east 31, went west 92 ; July 
 18th, 7 P. M., to July 19th, 7 A. M., went east 99, went 
 west 178. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Did you keep track of these ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
488 
 
 11I4S Q. Count the CHI'S? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, with the exception of Sunday night, and 
 then the man that was changing with me staid between 
 ten and eleven o'clock. 
 
 Q. Who set you aljout it i 
 
 A. 31r. Tracy. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : It was at my request that it was 
 
 done. 
 
 Q. Did these cars go aci'oss the crossing there in 
 1949 ^ , ^ ^ 
 
 trams ? 
 
 A. No, sir, not any trains, there are some of these 
 that we took notes of that was delivered on the Hart and 
 Diamond tracks. 
 
 Q. So you don't know how many went across ? 
 
 A. No, sir, we didn't keep track of those that went 
 across the Lake Shore. 
 
 Q. When one went on the Diamond track and went 
 ]^950 back you counted that east and west ? 
 
 \. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And when it went on the Hart track you counted 
 it east and west ( 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many times did tliey pull the same cars 
 back and forth there ? 
 
 A. That 1 cannot say. 
 
 ,„., Re-direct e^ixirnination, by ilr. ]\[ilburn: 
 195 1 ■' 
 
 Q. All the cars that you mentioned as being pulled 
 on the Diamond and Hart tracks were all pulled over the 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, every one of them. 
 
 Q. They could not get on to these tracks without 
 going over this crossing? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Every car that yon gave crossed this crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Clark.J 489 
 
 Q. In what shape are those cars? 1953 
 
 A. Sometimes they crossed twenty, thirty and forty 
 in a lot, and then two and three. 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. Yon did not take the number of 
 each car ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Edward Clark, sworn for the petitioners, and ex- 
 amined by Mr. Milburn, testified as follows : 1953 
 
 Q. At the time yon will state here, you were down 
 
 there counting the cars crossing the Lake Shore crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You counted them faithfully ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And put them down in the book? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 O. Julv 10th, 7 A. M. to 7 p. M., iiow many cars went 
 
 ,n " 1954 
 
 wests 
 
 A. 338, east 185. 
 
 Q. July 11th, 7 A. M. to 7 p. m., went west? 
 
 A. 237, east 324 ; July 12th, 7 a. m. to 7 p. m., went 
 west 310, east 316. 
 
 Q. July 13th, 7 a. m. to 7 p. m., how many went west ? 
 
 A. 297, east 252. 
 
 Q. July 14th, 7 a.m. to 7 p. M.,how many went west? 
 
 A. Went west 213, east 297. 
 
 , 1 :> 1955 
 
 Q. July 15th, 7 A. M. to 7 p. m., went west, how many i 
 
 A. 345, east 325. 
 
 Q. July 16th, 7 a. m. to 7 p. m.? 
 
 A. Went west 207, east 332. 
 
 Q. July 1 7th, 7 A. M. to 7 p. m., went west how many ? 
 
 A. 170, east 91. 
 
 Q. July 18th, 7 A. m. to 7 p. M. ? 
 
 A. Went west 118, east 183. 
 
 Q. Those are the number of cars and engines that 
 
490 
 
 1956 crossed east and west, the Erie crossing of the Lake 
 Shore ? 
 
 A. And Hart and Diamond tracks, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In what form did they go over, in trains ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, in trains of fifty-four, fiftj'-six and forty- 
 five cars, and ten cars, and three cars, and so on. 
 
 By Mr. McAlpine: Q. These were the cars and en- 
 gines ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 1957 Q. Yon counted an engine as a car'^ 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Cross examinatioii, by Sir. Locke : 
 
 Q. Were they switching back and forth a great deal, 
 
 those days ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, switching over the crossing. 
 
 Q. You counted all those ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 ^^^° Q. Every time a car went across, no matter how many 
 times? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Back and forth ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many times the same car went 
 across ? 
 
 A. I never noticed that. 
 
 -■n,^,^ Q- You did not notice that at air^ 
 1959 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was tlie engineer pretty active any of those days? 
 
 A. I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. Who sent you down? 
 
 A. Mr. Tracy. 
 
 Q. Did he say they would go across there that day ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say a good many would go across ? 
 
 A. He didn't say how many. 
 
Walrath.] 491 
 
 Q. Was the same switch engine in use that day all 1960 
 day? 
 
 A. There were different engines there. 
 
 Q. How many ? 
 
 A. I couldn't say. 
 
 Q. Any that you ever saw before; or did they have 
 some fresh ones, did you see any unfamiliar engines 
 there ? 
 
 A. No, I did not. 
 
 Q. They did the work with these that they had in 1961 
 the yard ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McAlpine : Q. What intervals of time did 
 these trains pass at — did they go as often as once in five 
 minutes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; sometimes oftener. 
 
 Q. But as frequent as once in five minutes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And then sometimes less frequent? ^^^^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long a time between the passing of one set 
 of cars and another set of cars ? 
 
 A. 1 couldn't tell you. 
 
 By Mr. Locke, resuming : Q. About how long ? 
 
 A. 1 couldn't say. 
 
 Q. Half an hour? 
 
 A. Sometimes half an hour, and other times an hour 
 
 1 Qfi^ 
 
 and ten minutes or five minutes. 
 Q. Two hours ? 
 A. I couldn't say that, I didn't have any watch ? 
 
 Charles Waleath, sworn for the petitioners, and 
 examined by Mr. McMillan, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Do you reside in Buffalo? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
492 ' 
 
 1964 A. You are in the employ of the Lake Shore and 
 Michij^an Southern Eailway Company, ai'e you not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And have been for how many years ? 
 
 A. Nineteen years. 
 
 Q. At the present time yon are the yard-master of 
 that company at the transfer-house i 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I am the general yard-master ot the 
 BujSalo yards. 
 
 1965 Q. You have been out of the city for several days 
 past, have you not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Presents Exhibit No. 3 to witness. 
 
 Q. Does that give a correct description of the yard 
 at that point; those two dark lines represent the pro- 
 posed crossing of the Lackawanna Company ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, as near as I can see now from the de- 
 scription of it. 
 
 Q. You may state what yonr special duties, as j'ard- 
 master, are at that point; what you have in charge, so 
 that the commissioners may understand it ? 
 
 A. 1 have a general charge over the business, and 
 over the men at that point. 
 
 Q. And you regulate the making up of trains, and 
 the starting of trains, that is all done under your 
 direction ? 
 
 1967 ^- ^'"'''^'■- 
 
 Q. You make up your trains on the tracks in the 
 
 northerly side of the yard, do you ? 
 
 A. We make them up on the northerly side of the 
 yard on two tracks when we have room there, when we 
 have not room we have to take them on the tracks ad- 
 joining, south of the main track. 
 
 Q. Are any of these tracks sufficient in length to ac- 
 commodate more than one freight train ? 
 
 A. Well, number one track we might put on more 
 
Walrath.] 493 
 
 than one freight train, but we could not put on enough 1968 
 more to make it an object. 
 
 Q. How many cars could you put on there ? 
 
 A. Forty-seven. 
 
 Q. That is the limit of that track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; and cut the crossing. 
 
 Q. In speaking about those crossings you cut, how 
 many crossings are there; the principal one you have to 
 cut to let the general traffic pass through? 
 
 A. The first crossing we have to cut is Elk street 1969 
 crossing, that is trains going east, and of course we com- 
 mence at the back end of the train and cut Elk sti-eet 
 first and Fulton street next and Scott street next, some- 
 times we are not obliged to cut Scott street, and some- 
 times we are, depending upon the length of the trains. 
 
 Q. What is the capacity' about of the next track go- 
 ing southerly in the yard ? 
 
 A. About forty-three cars. 
 
 Q. You may go on and give about the capacity of 
 each of those tracks, commencing towards the bottom of 
 the map ; the first track is called Ryan's track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The next is Strong's track '': 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The next one is the main track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The next one is number one ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And so on through, they are numbered continu- 
 ously up to number eight ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon have given us the capacity of Ryan's track 
 and of Strong's track ; what is about the capacity of 
 niimber one? 
 
 A. I gave you the capacity of number one and two, 
 
494 
 
 1972 and I Lave not given you the capacity of Ryan's and 
 Strong's. 
 
 Q. What is the capacity of number three ? 
 
 A. Well, that will hold about thirty-eight cars. 
 
 Q. Number four ? 
 
 A. Number four will hold about tliirty-three. 
 
 Q. Five ? 
 
 A. Number five will hold about thirty. 
 
 Q. Number six? 
 
 1973 A.. Number six will hold about twenty-seven. 
 Q. Number seven ? 
 
 A. Number seven about twenty-four. 
 
 Q. Number eight is a dead track ? 
 
 A. Number eight is a. dead track, and will hold about 
 eight or ten track. 
 
 By Com. JIcAlpine: Q. You mean to tlie extremity 
 of the yard ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I mean from one extremity of the vard 
 
 1974 . 
 
 to the other. xVt the lower part of the yard of course 
 
 those tracks come in the same position. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan : Q. They switch out at the other 
 end? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. Mc Alpine : Q. You call them through tracks 
 having a switch at each end of the yard, is that it ? 
 
 A. No, we don't call them through tracks. 
 1075 By Com. Clark: Q. Do I understand you to say that 
 the side tracks connect with the main tracks at the other 
 end? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; in regard to the capacity of those tracks 
 I would state that I did, at one time, know just the 
 amount of cars that they would store. 1 am sure about 
 number oue, two and three. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan, resuming : Q. That is an estimate 
 from your experience in that 3'ard ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; 1 am quite sure about numbers one, two 
 
Walrath.J 495 
 
 and three, and tlie balance I am not far out of tlie way, 197<J 
 may be one or two cars ont of the way. 
 
 Q. All of those tracks connect with the main track 
 by switches at the north end, all the tracks in the yard ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there sufficient room between tlie transfer- 
 house and the proposed crossing of the Delaware and 
 Lackawanna to do the necessary switching and handling 
 of cars for the purpose of transferring and making np of 
 trains between that point and the transfer-house? 1977 
 
 A. No, sir, there is not. 
 
 Q. That switching can not be done without crossing 
 over that point? 
 
 A. No, sir ; we would have to piece up our trains, 
 and tilling the Hart track we generally take twenty-five 
 to thirty-five cars. 
 
 Q. That is the upper track near the transfer-house ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir: if we have less we take less, but if we 
 
 1978 
 have enough to fill a track we generally take enough to 
 
 fill that track. 
 
 Q. Can you give the capacity, commencing with the 
 Hart track ? 
 
 A. The Hart track will hold thirty- eight cars. 
 
 Q. Now the Diamond track ? 
 
 A. That is the next track of ours, that will hold about 
 thirty cars. 
 
 Q. That is a stub-track at the north end ? ^g^g 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I will say about thirty-three cars, that 
 would be about the capacity of that. 
 
 Q. About what is the capacity of tlie platform track? 
 
 A. That is the one I gave you. 
 
 Q. Take what is called the house track ? 
 
 A. The house track will hold about twenty-one or 
 two cars in the house, I think, and six outside ; about 
 twenty-seven cars. 
 
496 
 
 1980 Q. A freiglit train coining in from the west makes a 
 stop at wliat point before reaching the target? 
 
 A. It makes a stop at the cross-over west of the Erie 
 crossing. 
 
 Q. Now, having made a stop there, it waits for what? 
 
 A. It waits iirst for the target, the target is in pos- 
 session of the Lake Shore, unless the Erie is using it, if 
 the Erie is using the crossing it waits for the target. 
 
 Q. If the engineer has received the target what then 
 
 1981 does he wait for ? 
 
 A. For a signal from the switchman. 
 
 Q. Why is it essential, and why is it that the order 
 is given that then after the engineer has been given the 
 target that he must wait for a signal from the switchman 
 to come on ; what are the duties after the target has been 
 given ? 
 
 A. After the target has been given the duties of the 
 
 switchman to find a clear track for east-bound trains to 
 
 " come in on, and after finding that clear track he has to 
 
 walk down over the Erie crossing in the yard to see 
 
 whether the track is clear. 
 
 Q. He has to come there and make a personal inspec- 
 tion ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then he signals the train to come down ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In stormy and foggy weather is not the delay in 
 getting into the yards incident to the inspection to be 
 made quite considerable? 
 
 A. Yes. sir ; actually more or as much as it would be 
 in the delay in getting the target, or rather crossing the 
 track. 
 
 Q. It is not an uncommon thing, is it, for several 
 trains, two or three or four, to be delayed in this yard 
 about getting out at the same time ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
Walrath.] 497 
 
 Q. That is, for instance, a train that is made up of 1984 
 three sections, if the first section is delayed the others 
 are delayed ? 
 
 A. They frequently hold them three miles away at 
 East Buffalo. 
 
 Q. Then the operating of this yard is somewhat in- 
 terfered with by passenger traiSc? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon do not allow any freight cars to leave this 
 yard unless they can reach Hamburg, a station ten miles 1985 
 distant, before the passenger train crosses that point ? 
 
 A. Before the passenger train crosses Buffalo Creek. 
 
 Q. How great delays do you sometimes experience 
 in this yard by reason of the occupancy of the crossing 
 by the Erie Company in doing the general business, how 
 great a delay in time, how long at one time continuously 
 in minutes or iiours, or anyway that you may know it 
 have you known it? 
 
 A. I have timed it sometimes, we have been delayed 
 there in getting our west-bound trains out, twenty or 
 twenty-five minutes. 
 
 Q. Now, then you have a train made up we will say on 
 number one, tilling up that track, how many cars do you 
 generally calculate for a train of freight going V7est? 
 
 A. Thirty -five is the usual number. 
 
 Q. You have thirty-five cars made up into a train^ 
 
 loaded cars, ready to go west, and the engineer does not 
 
 . 11. 1987 
 
 receive the target, what is necessary then, what is nec- 
 essary to do in regard to the cutting of trains ? 
 
 A. In order to see the target, he has got to stop, and 
 if he stops, he has to cut all the crossings in the yard. 
 
 Q. Tell us why these crossings must be cut ?• 
 
 A. I believe there is a city ordinance that obliges us 
 to cut them. 
 
 Q. You are not allowed by the city ordinance to let 
 
498 
 
 1988 a train stand across Abbott road, Elk street, Fnlton 
 street, nor Scott street ? 
 
 A. The Abbott road. 
 
 Q. It comes into Elk street at that point, that is one 
 of the thoroughfares leading into the city? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long a time does it take to cut those cross- 
 ings, and to make up the train again ? 
 
 A. To cnt the crossings and then 
 
 1989 Q. Get your trains ready to start again ? 
 
 A. It will take, on an average, to cut the crossings 
 and couple them again, making the stop, you understand, 
 if you don't cut the crossing yon have got to make a 
 stop and you have got to start again, you have got to cut 
 the crossings and couple them again, it will take, on an 
 average, ten minutes, that is in addition to the usual stop 
 for the target. 
 
 Q. And the engineer is required to have his train 
 
 ■^^^^ made up before he whistles for the target, he does not 
 
 whistle for the target before he gets his trains made up. 
 
 A. I wish to make an explanation ; the greater quan- 
 tity of trains are made up at East Buffalo, and suppos- 
 ing we start a train at East Buffalo, and they come 
 around and put the switches at the lower end of the yard 
 and come up and ask for the target, and if they do not 
 get it they have got to start the train and cnt those 
 
 crossings. 
 1991 
 
 Q. There is no other means of getting these freight 
 
 trains that come from East Buffalo through, excepting 
 
 at that yard, on this main track ? 
 
 A. No, sir, we take them through the main track, we 
 let them go through the main track, provided there is no 
 passenger train due from the west, if there is a passen- 
 ger train due from the west, we let them go through 
 number one or two, or whatever track it is. 
 
 By Com. Clark: Q. Your detention depends upon 
 
Walrath.] 499 
 
 the length of time the target is being used for another 1992 
 train. 
 
 Mr. McMillan : He speaks of this detention, that is, 
 if they stop for an instant of tiraie that tlie detention to 
 cut those crossings and couple them again, will amount 
 to about ten minutes, 
 
 Q. Let us understand that, Mr. Walrath, it for in- 
 stance, the engineer comes in here with his train from 
 East Buffalo, and don't get the tai-get, he is obliged to 
 stop? 1993 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That stop makes it necessary for him to cut the 
 streets? 
 
 A. -Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to be understood it takes him ten 
 minutes to have the streets cut and coupled up again and 
 get ready to start ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If the crossing there is occupied ten minutes by 
 the Erie, the stop would be in the matter of twenty min- 
 utes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. Mc Alpine: I did not understand him before 
 to say that the ten minutes would be added, the ten min- 
 utes loss of time in cutting the train was to be added to 
 the delay ; if he had got the target when he first came 
 along, he would not be obliged to stop, but on account 
 of his not getting that target, he is obliged to stop. 
 
 Q. What is the ordinance as to the time you have to 
 stop? 
 
 A. Five minutes. 
 
 Q. I understood you to saj' this morning, if they 
 stopped, they were not allowed to stop there? 
 
 A. We are allowed five minutes, but on account of 
 there being so tnuch travel there, on Elk street espe- 
 cially, they have given orders to all train and yard-men, 
 
500 
 
 1996 the moment they stop, if they cannot get the target for 
 an^' other obstruction, to cut that crossing immediately. 
 
 Q. Then the custom is, if you stop on those cross- 
 ings, to cut them ? 
 
 A. To cut the Elk street crossing ; it is not the cus- 
 tom to cut the other two crossings, unless there is a long 
 stop. 
 
 Q. What would be the eflect if you were obliged to 
 do your switching tlie other side of the Delaware and 
 
 1997 Lackawanna track at that point, taking into consideration 
 the grade at tliat point 1 
 
 A. Well, in one place it would affect us taking our 
 west-bound and transfer, we could not pull the west- 
 bound from the transfer-house without pulling over that 
 crossing and up to the bridge; in the second place, it 
 would prevent us delivering our freight to the Erie road 
 on the Hart track, we would have to pull over that 
 crossing; and in the third place, it would delay us in 
 1J95 getting our west-bound trains out and east-bound trains 
 in ; and there would be detention here in receiving from 
 the Erie road on account of their getting the track that 
 we received from. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to tiie necessity of extra 
 power to handle your freight-cars there, in the event you 
 had to cross this track in order to start your trains and 
 do your switching; you may explain to the commission- 
 
 ers the extra power that is necessary to start a train 
 1999 . 
 
 across a crossmg i 
 
 A. I think it would take an extra engine to do that. 
 
 Q. Explain how the necessity of having that engine, 
 what would be the occasion of it ? 
 
 A. The extra engine would be required on account 
 of the additional delays that would be experienced in 
 having another crossing there ; we have one now, and if 
 we should liave another one, the additional delay would 
 cause an extra engine ; of course I am not an engineer, 
 
Walrath.J 501 
 
 but I have an idea that if there was another crossing 2000 
 there beyond the<Erie crossing we would be obliged to 
 put a pusher on our west-bound train to get them out of 
 the yard, still that is only my idea. 
 
 Q. Tell us why you think so? 
 
 A. Because we have to do that now when the tracks 
 are bad, and I think on account of this crossing 
 
 Q. Do you uiean it is more difficult to draw a train 
 over a crossing than it is upon a level track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is the sum and substance of it. 
 
 Q. You think that the wheels drop down hito the 
 spaces made by the crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And for that reason, sometimes now when your 
 track is bad, you use a pusher to get them over ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If you had two crossings you think it would 
 necessitate the use of a pusher all the time ? „„„.-, 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think so. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Is not that difiSculty en- 
 hanced by the trains moving southerly by the twenty- 
 five feet grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think that should be taken into con- 
 sideration. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. If all the transfer business 
 between the Lake fShore and the Erie was wholly re- 
 moved from this Sandusky street crossing and done at 2003 
 some other remote place, how much of the present delay 
 at this place would be removed ? I will further add in 
 explanation, that if all the tracks in this yard were re- 
 moved and all on this side — counsel indicates on map — 
 so that no business could be done there, and it was 
 simply a double track of the Erie with its business, and 
 a double track of the Lake Shore with its business, how 
 much of all this delay that now ensues would be removed? 
 
 A. You mean the delay to our trains ? 
 
502 
 
 2004 Bj Com. McAlpine : Q. I will put a second question 
 also ; in that case would the delays be the same as they 
 would be at any other crossing where an equal and similar 
 amount of business was done by two roads ? 
 
 A. Y-ou wish' to know if the transfer business 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Taking away from here en- 
 tirely and it was merely the business passing that point? 
 
 By Mr. ilc^ilillan : Q. Taking away all the switching 
 and transferring that is done here ; if that is taken away 
 3005 how much will it reduce the delay to the business of the 
 railroad company, of the Lake Shore Company ; they 
 would all be through trains as far as this point would be 
 concerned ? 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. They would be like any 
 other crossing, in any other place, where an equal and 
 similar amount of business was done ? 
 
 A. It probably would reduce it al)out one-fourth, be- 
 cause then we would of course expect a double track 
 tlirough there ; we had a double track there. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Then any other crossing at 
 those two roads, or any other two roads, doing an equal 
 and similar amount of business would produce as much 
 delay as would be done here, if all the transfer business 
 was taken away from this place ? 
 
 By Mr. Mcilillan : Q. Do you know of any reason 
 \rhj' there would be any more delay if we only had the 
 ,-,, crossing there of the two main lines; why there would 
 be any more delay than there would be at any other 
 crossing of similar lines; is there anything peculiar here 
 why there should be any more delay here ; if all this 
 transfer was taken away than there would be at that 
 point; is it not similar to any other similar crossing 
 doing the same amount of work ; if all this transfer 
 business was taken away and sent to East Buffalo or 
 Black Rock ? 
 
 A. Certainly it would be similar to any other crossing. 
 
Walrath.J 503 
 
 Q. Similar to any other crossing jnst like it under 2008 
 the same circumstances, with a double track road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to be understood, that the delay to 
 the freight and passenger business on the Lake Shore 
 road, is only one-fourth more by reason of all the transfer 
 business and switching and shifting of trains at this 
 point, than what it would be if it was not there ; that is 
 that the delay is only enhanced one-quarter more than 
 the ordinary crossing would be of a double-track road, 2009 
 by reason of all the work that is done in this yard ? 
 
 A. I don't understand the question. 
 
 Q. Suppose this was a crossing out on the road, out 
 live miles, how much more would the delay be at this 
 yard, just doing the business that you are, than the delay 
 out at that crossing was, five miles from here with only 
 those four tracks ; how much greater will the delay be 
 here in doing all thc/business just as we do it — how much 
 greater will it be here than out five miles, having simply 2010 
 that crossing there ? 
 
 A. If the crossing was five miles out of the yard, it 
 would not interfere at all with our business here any 
 more than ordinarily at crossings. 
 
 Q. Can you give us a comparison as to how much 
 greater the delay at this point would be with the business 
 with the road than what it would be at a similar crossing 
 to that outside of the limits of the yard five miles? 
 
 A. 1 don't see as it would interfere with my business 
 at all in the yard. 
 
 By Mr. Clark : Q. What proportion of the delay 
 caused at this point is caused by the shifting of cars and 
 the transfer business of the two roads, of all the delays 
 that have been spoken of here ? 
 
 A. By the shifting of the cars you mean 
 
 By Mr. Clark : Q. Switching the cars back and forth, 
 
504 
 
 2012 and doing all the switching and transfer business of the 
 two roads ? 
 
 A. Delay to what? 
 
 By Mr. Clark : Q,. To your business. 
 
 A. To our trains ? 
 
 Mr. Clark : Q. Yes, of course. 
 
 Mr. ilcAlpine : Let me make a suggestion ; suppose 
 the Erie Road, following the example of the Delaware, 
 Lackawanna and Western, should conclude to make two 
 
 2013 lines, starting south of the present crossing, crossing the 
 Lake Shore near the bridge and swinging in below 'that 
 track, and they did all their business through this line 
 instead of carrying it in this way, all their business that 
 went through by this line instead of the other, and left 
 this line merely to be used for the transfer of bnsiness 
 between the Erie and the Lake Shore by means of these 
 transfer-tracks and yard tracks ? 
 
 A. You mean the Lake Shore business you take out. 
 -01 -l Mr. McAlpine: Yes, sir. 
 
 A. Then what is your question ? 
 
 Q. Mr. McAlpine : Q. If you take out all the Lake 
 
 Shore business by this line and pass it around by an 
 
 independent line, and take out all the Erie through 
 
 business and pass that around by an independent line, 
 
 what proportion of all the delay would take place here 
 
 on the remainder of the business? 
 
 A. You still mean to have this crossing here for the 
 ' 01 
 
 purpose of doing our transfer business? 
 
 iMi-. McAlpine : Yes. 
 
 A. Well, I don't know as I will be able to give a very 
 close estimate of that. 
 
 Com. McAlpine: Q. Suppose all those tracks were 
 taken up at this place except the through tracks of the 
 two roads, the main tracks, and that business was all 
 transferred, I will say, on the Tifft farm ; you should 
 move all your yard, all this business onto the Tifft farm ; 
 
Walrath.] 505 
 
 now then, how much would remain of those delays at 3016 
 this particular crossing, what proportion? 
 
 A. Tlien it would be merely the delays to our through 
 trains, oui- freight and passenger trains ? 
 
 Q. Yes. 
 
 A. I don't think I will be able to make an estimate 
 on it. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan, resuming : Q. Do you think it 
 would be possible to do the business you are now carry- 
 ing on in this yard if there was a grade-crossing at that 2017 
 point by the Lackawanna Road, would it be possible to 
 do you business at that yard ? 
 
 A. Certainly it would depend on the amount of 
 busiuess they did. 
 
 Q. We go on the assumption that they have pro- 
 jected a double-track road there, and that a new com- 
 pany projecting a double-track road, that it is a sort of 
 an index that they expect to do a large business. Of 
 course if they did no business it would not affect you ^^■'■^ 
 any, any more than simply the extra crossings ; but 
 taking into consideration the fact that they expect to do 
 a fair business, not only of freight but of passenger, 
 would it be possible for you to carry on your business at 
 that yard ? 
 
 A. I don't think it would. 
 
 Q. Is it not true that nine-tenths of the delay in the 
 handling of your trains in getting out your freight, is 
 incident to the fact that you have this system of transfers " 
 here with the Erie and the Erie crossing, incident to the 
 location of this yard and all of its surroundings; that it 
 would be exceedingly detrimental to run that track 
 through the yard for that reason, that it would intensify 
 those delays? 
 
 A. I do not think that nine-tenths of the delays come 
 from that ; that is quite a large proportion. 
 
 Q. What proportion would you say if not nine-tenths? 
 
506 
 
 2020 A. You say that nine-tenths of the delay caused by 
 the Erie 
 
 Q. Nine-tenths of the delay to the business is caused 
 by the shifting and transferring of cars in this yard, and 
 also by the use of this crossing for making those trans- 
 fers ? 
 
 A. That nine-tenths of the delay is caused by our 
 shifting those cars ? 
 
 Q. Using those crossings in the way you did, that 
 
 2021 nine-tenths of the delay is caused by the business done 
 in the yard ? 
 
 A. As I understand j'ou, it is that the Erie crossing 
 causes nine-tenths of the delay ; did you mean to state 
 that, that the Erie crossing caused nine-tenths of the 
 delays iti this yard ? 
 
 Q. Take that into consideration with the delay 
 caused by the use of that crossing and the shifting of 
 cars in making up your trains and getting them ready to 
 start, what does your delay arise from, if it does not 
 arise from the delay at that crossing and this shifting 
 back and forth and failure to 2,'et the tarsret? 
 
 A. I don't think it would be nine-tenths. 
 
 Q. About what proportion would you say '? 
 
 A. I should say seven-tenths. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Does the additional crossiiii;- that the Erie are 
 2023 
 
 now putting in tend to increase your troubles down 
 
 there ? 
 
 A. I could't say, because that crossing has not been 
 used. 
 
 Q. What its effect would be you are not able to 
 state ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; because it is not in use yet. 
 
 Q. It would make more friction wouldn't it, in your 
 track ? 
 
Walrath x ] 507 
 
 A.. Yes, sir. 2024 
 
 Q. Just doable the friction ? 
 
 A. Double the friction. 
 
 Q. Do you regard that as a very serious objection ? 
 
 A. It is an objection ; yes, sir ; I I'egard it as an ob- 
 jection. 
 
 Q. A serious one ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I should regard it as a serious objection in 
 case of bad tracks ; crossings are apt to get blocked with 
 snow more than on the main track. 2025 
 
 By Com. Clarke : Q. How long did you state you 
 have been engaged at this point? 
 
 A. I have been engaged at this point three years ; 
 nineteen years in their employ. 
 
 Q. During the time you have been engaged, have 
 the frogs on the crossing of the Erie and Lake Shore 
 been changed and renewed ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; several times. 
 
 Q. Were they broken ? ^^^^ 
 
 A. Broken and worn out, usually broken. 
 
 Q. Can you state how many times? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I couldn't state how many times. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. How long does the best 
 style of frog last at this particular point ? 
 
 A. Well, I couldn't state the length of time ; I only 
 state from the times that I have to suspend business; 
 you may say partly, on account of putting in those frogs. „„„^ 
 
 Q. Do you put in new frogs once in three months? 
 
 A. On the same corner ? 
 
 Q. Yes? 
 
 A. I think a frog would last more than three months. 
 
 Q. You are speaking of this Erie crossing now? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but we have so many of them that there 
 are a good many put in. 
 
 Q. They do not always fail at the same time? 
 
 A. No, sir ; we had a crossing put in last Sunday ; 
 
508 
 
 2028 no, a week ago last Sunday, and one week before that, 
 but that was a new crossing. 
 
 Q. In a train of thirty-five cars on No. 1, how many 
 cuts must be made at Elk street with the switch below ? 
 
 A. W-e can get thirty cars in by cutting two cross- 
 ings ; by cutting Elk street and Fulton, but if the train 
 was not stopped at the upper end of the yard where it 
 ought to be, if they run down too far they might be 
 obliged to cut the crossing below. 
 3029 Q. They are forced to make two cuts ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Always ? 
 
 A. Always. 
 
 Q. If they don't go far enough south they will be 
 obliged to make another cut ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; if they go too far north. 
 
 Q. In giving the number of cars that would stand on 
 these various tracks, Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, will you 
 state how many you think could stand on the same 
 tracks, stating each one seperately, up to Elk street, 
 without crossing Elk street ? 
 
 A. I think we could get about eighteen cars, eighteen 
 to twenty cars above Elk street on No. 1. 
 
 Q. Now say on No. 7? 
 
 A. On No. 7 1 don't think we can get over seven 
 cars, and clear the switches at the other end of the 
 
 2031 y^^'^- 
 
 Q. And the ii.termediate numbers would be in that 
 
 proportion ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When you speak of the capacity of these several 
 tracks for holding cars, you mean also the capacity to 
 hold the engine ? 
 
 A. No, sir; I do not ; the car capacity that I have 
 given of these several tiacks is for cars alone and does 
 not include the engine with it. 
 
Emslie.J 509 
 
 Q. An engine and tender would take up the space of 2032 
 two cars ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; about two cars. 
 
 Q. You omitted to state which of those tracks on 
 the east side of the transfer platform were stub-tracks, if 
 any ? 
 
 A. It is the Diamond traci?:, is a stub-track. 
 
 William A. Haven, recalled for the petitioners, and 
 examined by Mr. McMillan, testified as follows : ^^^'^ 
 
 Q. The Erie is a double-track road, is it not, at the 
 point where it crosses the main lines of the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. No, sir, it is not a double-track road, because our 
 crossings have just been put in, and they are not con- 
 nected, as yet, with the other tracks, either on the east 
 or west. 
 
 Q. It is the intention, and is in process of construc- 
 tion, making it a double-track road ? 2034 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is the track I spoke of in my direct 
 testimony a day or or two ago ; that was agreed upon 
 with the Lake Shore people last year ; in point of fact, 
 it is not used at present as a double track. 
 
 Q. When that track is put in, it will be a double 
 track at that point? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Peter Emslie, sworn for the petitioners, and exam- 2035 
 ined by Mr. McMillan, testilied as follows: 
 
 Q. You reside in Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And have for how many years ? 
 
 A. Thirty-five or forty years. 
 
 Q. You are a civil engineer by profession ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
510 
 
 2036 Q. And for a number of years you were connected in 
 that capacity with the Lake Shore Railroad? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For how many years were yon connected with 
 that company? 
 
 A. About eleven years. 
 
 Q. You had charge, as engineer, of the Buffalo 
 division ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; chief engineer on the Buffalo and Erie 
 
 2037 up to the time of the consolidation, and after that divis- 
 ion engineer. 
 
 Mr. McMillan showed witness map marked " Petition- 
 er's Exhibit No. 3." 
 
 Q. This map shoAvs the transfer of the Erie crossing, 
 the yard at the transfer-honse, and it also shows these 
 dark lines running from the top to the bottom of the 
 map, indicating a doul)le-track road projected l)y the 
 Lackawanna Company, running across this lot, colored 
 
 2038 |j]^g JQ u Exhibit No. 2," and taking a strip one hun- 
 dred feet in width — I will ask you now if you purchased 
 some of this property for the Lake Shore Company ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I purchased all of this up on tlie Ab- 
 bott road. 
 
 Q. That is lot 168 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and sixty-seven and seventy. 
 
 Q. With the exception of those two strips through 
 
 here which belong to Mr. Bork, or stand in his name? 
 
 2039 . .T ■ 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The Lake Shore Company also own lot 185, the 
 one colored blue ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the Erie Railway owned lot 184? 
 
 A. They did. 
 
 Q. What do you say, if the proposed Lackawanna 
 road is laid down at grade through lot 185 as indicated 
 on map number three, occupying a space one hundred 
 
Eraslie xj 511 
 
 feet in width, aud grading it up to make it sufficiently 2040 
 high to cross these tracks of the Lake Shore and the 
 Erie, how will that affect the usefulness of lots 185, 184, 
 168, 169 and 170 for railway purposes, as intended to be 
 used by the Lake Shore Company? 
 
 A. Well, I think it will virtually destroy the use of 
 185. 
 
 Q. Will it not also cut off switches from 184, 168, 
 169 and 170, to run the switches around in that way? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 2041 
 
 Q. Would it be possible to utilize lots 184, 168, 
 169 and 170 if this road was built through here? 
 
 A. I think it would be very difficult to utilize them. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. When was 185 bought ? 
 
 A. I don't recollect ; I think it was bought before I 
 was engineer on the line. 
 
 Q. When were you engineer on the line, first ? 3043 
 
 A. I commenced, I think, in 1867. 
 
 Q. When was this map made? 
 
 A. This map was made four or iive years ago. 
 
 Q. It would appear to better matters provided the 
 Lackawanna crossing was put across this Erie Railway 
 and run across in that direction on the proposed altered 
 route. If removed two hundred feet from its proposed 
 route, it would materially prevent all injury to Lake 
 Shore land, and the Erie Railway land, and everything ^^"^'^ 
 of the sort ? 
 
 A. Well, if you should cross down here below it 
 would be better, because they could get out on these 
 lands. 
 
 Q. If they cross down four hundred feet away it 
 w-ould be better ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
512 
 
 20.1:4: Q. But would a removal of two linndred feet away 
 make any difference, practically? 
 
 A. Up here it virtually cuts them off'. 
 
 By Mr. ilcMillan : Q. What is the scale of this map ? 
 
 A. 1 believe it is tiftv feet to the inch. 
 
 By Mr. Locke, resuming: Q. Mr. Emslie, have you 
 been pretty familiar with that locality for a good many 
 years ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I have. 
 'iO-ib Q. Do you know how the tracks are arranged 
 there at the present time? 
 
 A. I put most of them in, myself. 
 
 Q. Does this map show the Lake Shore tracks on lot 
 185 about as they are at present? 
 
 A. That I could not say ; I have not been there, I 
 guess, in three yeai's. 
 
 Q. Does it show them as they were three years ago? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know who 185 was bought from ? 
 
 A. I don't recollect, now. 
 
 Q. Now, Mr. Emslie, was there ever a time when you 
 had any connection with the Lake Shore Road when it 
 required a fuller use of 185 than it had - at the time yon 
 left the company, did the company ever require the use 
 of 185 to any greater extent than when you left ? 
 
 Mr. McMillan : We admit that, Mr. Locke ; there is 
 nil question about that. 
 
 ■20-1:7 ^ 
 
 Q. How long -were yon engineer, do yon say ? 
 
 A. I was engineer from 1867, I believe, to 1878 or 
 1879, 1879 I guess. 
 
 Q. During all that time this Eric crossing was 
 operated ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was in there before you went there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Barrian.J 513 
 
 Q. You managed to do your business with that Erie 2048 
 crossing there, did yon not ? 
 
 A. Managed to do it, but it was pretty difficult, 
 sometimes. 
 
 Mr. McMillan stated that he here rested his case, with 
 the exception of calling Mr. Clark, if he should arrive 
 before the process was closed. 
 
 R. MiLFORD Bareian, sworn for the respondents, and 2049 
 examined by Mr. Locke, testified as follows : 
 Q. Where do you reside ? 
 A. At present in the city of Buifalo. 
 Q. What is your business? 
 A. Civil engineer. 
 
 Q. How long have you been a civil engineer ? 
 A. In the neighborhood of thirteen years, 
 
 Q. During that time in what works have you been „ 
 
 2050 
 engaged 5 
 
 A. I have been engaged on the New York Central 
 Under-ground ; made surveys connected with that ; the 
 construction of the Grand Central Depot in New York 
 city, and laying out and construction of their tracks and 
 buildings connected with the construction ofthat depot; 
 the building of the Fourth avenue improvement, or rather 
 two miles of it, being division engineer upon that; the 
 construction of the Bay Ridge end of the New York and 2051 
 Manhattan Beach Road, as engineer for a year, and di- 
 vision engineer of the Boston, Hoosac Tunnel and Wes- 
 tern Road, and the surveys of two others that have not 
 been constructed. 
 
 Q. What is your present engagement ? 
 
 A. It is with the New York, Lackawanna and Wes- 
 tern Railway, as division engineer of the Buffalo division. 
 
 Q. Extending from what point to what point ? 
 
514 
 
 2052 A. Extending from a point some three miles east of 
 Pavilion to Buffalo. 
 
 Q. How old are you ? 
 
 A. About thirty-three years of age. 
 
 Q. Do you know this locality of the proposed Lake 
 Shore crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think I do. 
 
 Q. Did you have anything to do with locating the 
 Lackawanna route from East Buffalo around to Erie 
 
 2053 street ? 
 
 A. I assisted in making that location. 
 
 Q. Have you been frequently upon the premises ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you know the whole Lackawanna line of the 
 Buffalo division ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had anj- experience in reference to grade- 
 crossings of railroads ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I have had some. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with different grade-crossings at 
 different points 1 mean ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Take the Manhattan Beach Road with which you 
 were connected, how long a road is that ? 
 
 A. I think it is some twenty-two miles. 
 
 Q. Extending from what point to what point? 
 .2^K- A.. Extending from Bay Ridge to Coney Island, and 
 from Green Point to Coney Island, making a " Y" in its 
 construction, it forms a letter " Y." 
 
 Q. What is that road principally used for ? 
 
 A. It is used as a carrier of summer travel to Coney 
 Island. 
 
 Q. From New York? 
 
 A. From New York and from the surroundings of 
 Bay Ridge and Green Point to Coney Island, a passenger 
 road. 
 
Barrian.] 515 
 
 Q. Do you know how many passenger trains run over 3056 
 the road a day in the busy season ? 
 
 A. No, 1 cannot say, I can estimate, about one hun- 
 dred trains a day. 
 
 Q. During portions of the day how rapidly do they 
 run ? 
 
 A. They have run, at the time I was connected with it, 
 as often as twenty minutes during tlie time between one 
 p. M. and eleven at night. 
 
 Q. Are there any grade-crossings on that road ? 
 
 3057 
 
 A. There are four as I ^remember it, two of which I 
 constructed myself. 
 
 Q. Which did you construct yourself? 
 
 A. I constructed the crossing which forms the inter- 
 section with the Broolilyn, Bath and Coney Island Road, 
 and the Prospect Park and Coney Island with the Man- 
 hattan Beach. 
 
 Q. Those are both carriers of passengers ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they have a large summer travel ? 
 
 A. Very lai-ge, tlie Prospect Park and Coney Island 
 especially. 
 
 Q. How frequently do trains run upon those roads ? 
 
 A. They run on the Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Is- 
 land — they did run rather— some forty-seven trains a day, 
 and on the Prospect Park and Coney Island something 
 over a hundred. 2059 
 
 Q. Trains a day ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you mean by trains a day, twenty-four hours ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Up and back ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I mean trains shown by the time-table 
 both ways, passing over the crossing as trains. 
 
 By Mr. Locke, resuming: Q. Now, sir, with those 
 crossing roads, as well as with the Manhattan road, the 
 
516 
 
 2060 principal part of those trains are rnn between certain 
 hours, are they not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they are rnn in the afternoon after one 
 p. M. nntil ten or eleven at night. 
 
 Q. So that the bulk of all that business is done be- 
 tween those hours? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are von acquainted with the crossing at Eliza- 
 beth, New Jersey ? 
 
 2061 A. No, sir, I am not. 
 
 Q. You say you had something to do with the im- 
 provements of the New York Central around the 42d 
 street depot ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar' with the construction of tracks 
 at that point? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the tracks in front of the 
 2063 Grand Central Depot in New York ? 
 
 A. I am familiar with them in 1871-2. They may 
 have changed them 'since that time. 
 
 Q. Just descrilje the arrangement of the tracks lead- 
 ing to and from the Grand Central depot? 
 
 A. The general arrangement? 
 
 Q. As distinctly as possible in regard to the intersec- 
 tion of tracks ? 
 ' ncQ '^' ^^^1^5 i'l approaching the depot, coming from the 
 north, the road is run right-handed, bat at a point in the 
 neighborhood of 50th or 51st street — I cannot place it 
 precisely — they change over, they cross over, so that all 
 trains going into the Grand Central depot, or coming 
 out, have to cross over at that point; the incoming trains 
 being on the east side of the Grand Central and occu- 
 pying the three tracks, the outgoing trains being on the 
 westside, taking up some twelve or thirteen other tracks — 
 
Barrian.] 517 
 
 the storage tracks in front of the Grand Central, lead- 2064 
 ing out from the through track on the north. 
 
 Q. So that all trains going into that depot, at that 
 time, certainly cross the tracks of all trains going out 
 of the depot? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; not only all trains going into that depot, 
 but all local freight on the Harlem road, which does not 
 go to the Grand Central, but runs to their local depot, 
 at the corner of Center and White sti-eets, also a portion 
 of the New York and New Haven local freight. 20^)5 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Did you say tliat the freight 
 of the Harlem and of the New Haven did not pass 
 through the Grand Central depot ? 
 
 A. It don't pass through it, it passes on the east side 
 of it, around the depot, going through the old tunnel, 
 between 42d and 34th streets ; I think it is down to the 
 depot, at White and Center streets; this was at the time 
 that I was connected with the road : change may have 
 taken place since that time, that was up to 1878, January, 
 1878. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to the feasibility of a grade- 
 crossing of the Lake Shore and Erie tracks, at the 
 point located by you ? 
 
 A. Here In Buffalo ? 
 
 Q. Yes ? 
 
 A. I think it is feasible, and can be operated success- 
 fully- 3067 
 
 Q. Assuming that both the proposed line of the 
 
 Lackawanna Company, and the proposed altered line in- 
 volved grade-crossings of the Lake Shore and Erie 
 tracks, in what respects is one line preferable to the 
 other ? 
 
 A. First in alignment, the alignment of the Lacka- 
 wanna in its approach to crossing the Lake Shore and 
 Michigan Southern, is that of a tangent or straight line, 
 while that of the proposed route by the Lake Shore and 
 
518 
 
 2068 Michigan Southern, and New York, Lake Erie and 
 Western, is that in its approach of reverse curves, and 
 somewhat longer to operate it; that is two reasons. 
 
 Q. Which is the most expensive hne to construct I 
 
 A. At grade? 
 
 Q. Tes, sir ; assuming they are both grade-crossings? 
 
 A. Well, materially, I think that the mere cost of 
 construction would not vary but little, one from the 
 other. 
 
 2069 By Com. Clark : Q. Do you mean to he understood 
 in 3'our second objection that the objection to re- 
 verse curves consists in the fact that it is somewhat 
 longer to operate? 
 
 A. That is a slight objection. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. That is the only one you named ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Locke, resuming : Q. What other objections 
 are there to reverse curves ? 
 
 2070 ^ Besides operation ? 
 
 Q. Or any other objection aside from the length? 
 
 A. That is about the only objection to them — is in 
 the operation of the road. 
 
 Q. That objection in the operation don't wholly de- 
 pend npon the increased length of the road-bed i 
 
 A. No, sir ; it is the mere fact of traveling over 
 those reverse curves, 
 g^^^ Q- ^^^^y sirs reverse curves disadvantageous ? 
 
 A. The track instead of being on a straight line, 
 being on a curved line, the friction is greater, and neces- 
 sarily requires more power to propel. 
 
 Q. And a reverse curve is worse for that reason than 
 a simple curve, is it not ? 
 
 A. Generally it is ; yes, sir ; if curves are reverse in 
 direction, very short, thoy would be preferable to a long 
 continuous curve. 
 
 Q. Have you examined the profile attached to the 
 
Barrian.J 519 
 
 map of the proposed altered line served upon the peti- 2072 
 tioner in this proceeding ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you tell me the distance over w^hich it is 
 proposed to change the grade of the Lackawanna road ? 
 
 A. The distance over which it is proposed to change 
 the grade ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. Not without the map. 
 
 (Presents map to witness.) 2073 
 
 A. It is something over two miles. 
 
 Q. Have you estimated the increased cost of con- 
 struction of the road according to the profile attached 
 to the altered line as shown on that map, over the cost 
 of construction of the line as proposed by the Lacka- 
 wanna Company? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I made an approximate estimate. 
 
 Q. How much more would it cost to build the line 
 
 2074 
 on the altered route according to that estimate, than the 
 
 other line ? 
 
 A. Approximately about $490,000 ; that is line A 
 and JB taken together. 
 
 Q. Taking the grades running westerly from the 
 Lake Shore crossing according to the proposed route, 
 will you state what would be the effect upon your line 
 as it progresses towards Erie street as laid down upon 
 that map ? 2Q^g 
 
 A. As 1 remember the position of our grade point at 
 what is shown as station 150 of the located line, the 
 grade as proposed by the New York, Lake Erie and 
 Western, and Lake Shore and Michigan Southern, 
 would not intersect with us — would not connect with ns. 
 
 Q. How far would it come from connecting with you ? 
 
 A. Well, approximately between two and three 
 feet. 
 
520 
 
 "-" ' '' Q. Then they lia7e not carried their grade far enough 
 to bring it down to your line ? 
 
 A. I would rather say it in this way, that they have 
 carried their grade so far that at some point west of sta- 
 tion " 150," it would be some three and one-half feet 
 below our located grade line ; it would connect at some 
 point, but they have carried it so far that there is no con- 
 nection. 
 
 Q. What was the object in carrying that so far ? 
 "•- ' ' A. That is more than I can tell you. 
 
 Q. It lessened the grade, didn't it, by carrying it so 
 far? 
 
 A. Not necessarily ; it did not lessen the rate of 
 grade, but 1 might say that by carrying it that far it 
 makes it still more difficult to cross the Ohio Basin slip 
 at the elevation the State engineer requires to cross at. 
 
 Q. Just explain it? 
 
 A. The iirade elevation at station " 149," of their 
 "-.'078 . 
 
 own line as proposed, is five hundred and thirty-five 
 
 feet above the assumed base ; this base is said to be tide 
 
 level at New York ; it is so marked here five hundred 
 
 and thirty-five feet, while that of the located line of the 
 
 New York, Lackawanna and Western at the same point 
 
 has a grade elevation of five hundred and thirty-nine 
 
 above. 
 
 Q. Five hundred and thirty-nine feet ? 
 ■)079 A. Five hundred and thirty-nine feet; we suppose 
 those tw(_i bases to be the same base as used by us in 
 filing the located line. 
 
 Q. What is that base? 
 
 A. I could not say what that base is ; it was a base 
 assumed from elevations furnished or published by the 
 New York, Lake Erie and Western Railway Company 
 starting near Linden, in Genesee county ; what that 
 base is I cannot say ; it has been carried through to this 
 point. 
 
Bai'riaii.J 521 
 
 Q. Their profile here purports to be founded on the ^080 
 same base lines as yours ? 
 
 A. It is so marked in the elevation. 
 
 Q. Now state what difficulties any such depression 
 would Involve you in in regard to the extension of 
 your line westerly. 
 
 A. Tlie Ohio Basin slip has a position in regard to 
 that station " 150 " — I cannot say that positively, but it 
 is about in the neighborhood of two hundred feet west 
 of that station " 150," so that to get to the point desig- 2081 
 nated by the engineei', or even by our own grade line 
 as I saw it would cause a very heavy gi'ade. 
 
 Q. How much of a grade, in round numbers ? 
 
 A. To get to the point filed by the State engineer it 
 takes over two hundred and sixty feet to the mile. 
 
 Q. Take your own point? 
 
 A. Take that of our own, about one hundred and 
 twenty-five I think. 
 
 Q. To get over the Ohio slip ? 2082 
 
 A. To get over the Ohio slip ; I would like to say 
 in connection with this, why I mention the State engi- 
 neer, or rather the division engineer of the canals of the 
 western division ; his report on that subject was given 
 to us, and the points fixed ; the point and elevation of 
 crossing was fixed after our line had been filed ; at the 
 time of filing we supposed we could cross at what we 
 
 have placed it, at any elevation across that slip, but 
 
 2083 
 even with that elevation that we have fixed, it was 
 
 about one hundred and twenty-five feet to the mile to 
 
 get to that point even as it stands. 
 
 By Coin. Clark : Q. Lowering the grade to the point 
 of the amended profile shows what would be the grade? 
 
 A. To reach our own grade line, one hundred and 
 twenty-five feet, to reach that of the State engineer 
 something over two hundred and sixty. 
 
522 
 
 3(184 By Com. Clark : Q. Will the grade be changed by 
 the altered profile that is filed ? 
 
 A. It would be changed from a grade rate of some- 
 thing like five feet to the mile to one hundred and twenty 
 feet in a mile over that distance of one hundred and 
 twenty feet. 
 
 By Mr. Locke, resuming : Q. By depressing it five 
 feet? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the thing when completed would show 
 
 2085 something like that ; Ihey carried ns down and fixed a 
 place on tlieir amended profile as one hundred and 
 twenty-five and two hundred feet west of that ; we have 
 to reach the abutment of the present canal; to do that 
 it requires one hundred and twenty-five feet and two 
 hundred feet west of that we have to reach the abutment 
 of the present canal ; to do that it requires one hundred 
 and twenty-five feet to the mile to get up again; I do 
 not mean to say that it would be impossible to connect 
 
 2086 ^g ^;j]j (-1,^)- grade, but they have carried us so far that 
 they cannot connect in that way ; the grade can be con- 
 nected to this grade as shown on that projected line. 
 
 Q. You 'have heard the testimony that has been given 
 here in regard to the use of that crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I have heard the greater portion of it. 
 
 Q. Of the present Erie crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any trouble, in your judgment, in arrang- 
 ing those tracks so as to greatly lessen the evils of the 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. Well, there would seem to be a feasible way by 
 purchasing additional property, and some laying of rail 
 and track would obviate that diflSculty. 
 
 Q. Is there anything about this grade crossing which 
 makes it peculiarly objectionable as a grade crossing 
 over and above other grade crossings in the city and in 
 the country with which you are familiar ? 
 
Barrian.J 523 
 
 A. Well, with those crossings that I am familiar with 2088 
 this is somewhat peculiar, as it is located near the 
 throat of the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern and 
 Erie yards, over which they seem, in doing their work, 
 to pull all their cars and throw them in and out. 
 
 Q. Does not the fact that all trains already have to 
 stop at that point compensate for that to some extent? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, so far as the location of our crossing is 
 concerned, the Lackawanna crossing that you speak 
 of ' 2089 
 
 Q. I am speaking of the location of our crossing. 
 
 A? Yes, sir, that makes a very material difference. 
 
 Q. One great objection against crossings is the neces- 
 sity of stopping trains ? 
 
 A. The first necessity, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is one of the great objections ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of course that is eliminated if a point is selected 
 
 2090 
 where all trains have to stop already ? 
 
 A. Very materially. 
 
 Q. Do you know how the Lake Shore yard is run, 
 right-handed or left-handed ? 
 
 A. I could not say definitely as the movement of their 
 trains. 
 
 Q. I thought you had observed it. 
 
 A. I have observed it, but not sufficiently to swear 
 
 to it. ^ 2091 
 
 Q. Are there any advantages tliat j'ou can mention 
 in connection with the proposed altered line which make 
 it superior to the proposed liiie except such as have been 
 mentioned here by you? 
 
 A. I can't see any. 
 
 Q. If the altered line and proposed line are both at 
 grade, is there any practical difference between the diffi- 
 culties occasioned the Lake Shore by their construction ? 
 
 A. I can see none. 
 
524 
 
 2092 By Com. Clark : Q. How would it be with an over- 
 head grade, two over-head grades? 
 
 A. Ours would be far superior. 
 
 By Mr. Locke, resuming : Q. Wliy ? 
 
 A. On aceount of its alignment particularly. 
 
 Q. Would the over-head crossing at the point of in- 
 tersection designated by you be any more troublesome to 
 the Lake Shore or Eiie than the overliead crossing at 
 point they designate ? 
 3093 A. Not that 1 can see. 
 
 Gross examination, by Mr. 5Iilburn : 
 
 Q. Has your experience been confined to constructing 
 railroads, or have you had charge as engineer of rail- 
 roads or parts of railroads in operation ? 
 
 A. It has been confined to that of constructing, engi- 
 neering, locating and constructing engineering. 
 
 Q. That is the construction of new roads or extension 
 309* of roads ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And your experience has not been in connection 
 with the changes or with the engineering department of 
 a railroad in operation where you would have to consider 
 all the questions of operation coming up? 
 
 A. I have never managed a railroad in operation. 
 
 Q. Or been engineer in charge of a railroad or divis- 
 ion of a railroad in operation ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I have. 
 
 Q. What was that ? 
 
 A. The Boston, Hoosac Tunnel and Western was 
 one ? 
 
 Q. Were your duties confined there to construction? 
 
 A. Construction, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Just what were you doing in connection with the 
 Hoosac Tunnel line ? 
 
 A. I was, from the time that they first made the pre- 
 
Barrian x] 525 
 
 liminaries until my leaving, a portion of which time the 2096 
 
 road was operated 
 
 Q. How long was the road in operation ? 
 A. I declare it is pretty hard to fix it, we had so 
 many construction trains running over it; I think about 
 five or six months before my day. 
 
 Q. You have not then been, in your engineering 
 duties, connected with roads where a part of your duty 
 was to be brought in contact with grade crossing in actual 
 operation? '^097 
 
 A. My duty in that direction has been to locate some 
 of them with roads in operation ? 
 Q. New roads ? 
 
 A. Well, old roads in operation. 
 
 Q. Locate new crossings and new roads over old 
 roads in operation ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, take the Manhattan road that you spoke 
 about, both the road itself and the roads which cross it 
 at grade, are they not passenger roads ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Busy during one part of the season ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Running from terminus to terminus over a dis- 
 tance of what ? 
 
 A. The Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island is some- 
 where in the neighborhood of six or seven miles in length, f,r,Qr, 
 and the Prospect Park six miles, I think, while the other 
 crossings were that of the dummy line which operates 
 trains every five or six minutes, and the other, that of 
 the Long Island Railroad, wliich operates by quick tran- 
 sit at that point, running trains every twenty minutes, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. How long a road is that Long Island road ? 
 
 A. About four or five hundred miles. 
 
 Q. With the exception of the Long Island road all 
 
526 
 
 2100 the others are short roads, connecting New York City 
 and Brooklyn with these watering-places ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the trains between those points are not called 
 upon to stop at many intermediate stations i 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they have a station about every mile on 
 the two roads, the Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island, 
 and the Prospect Park. 
 
 Q. All those passenger trains are run on schedule 
 3101 time? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is to the best of my knowledge, I 
 know nothing of it. 
 
 Q. That is a fair presumption with passenger trains? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A crossing of that kind, of one passenger line by 
 another passenger line whose trains are running between 
 points not far distant from each other, on established 
 card time, is a very different condition of things from a 
 2103 crossing where the business is large freight, and a great 
 deal of switching is done, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there is considerable difference. 
 
 Q. As an engineer, you. could scarcely compare the 
 two crossings as offering any analogies, one bearing on 
 the other, could you ? 
 
 A. Well, in these cases which I know fairly well, 
 their schedule time is very often up and down, they have 
 such rushes that they run almost entirely by wire, at 
 times they get a block. 
 
 Q. Just take the precise question that I put to yon, 
 you can scarcely compare the crossing that we have here 
 and its situation with these crossings on the Manhattan 
 railway, as an engineer, as furnishing any analogies to 
 each other? 
 
 A. Oh, I think there is considerable of a resemblance. 
 
 Q. The resemblance lies in the fact don't it, that in 
 
Barrian x J 527 
 
 each case one set of tracks is laid across another set of 3104 
 tracks ? 
 
 A. That is part of it, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In all the business done over there, the kinds of 
 business or methods of doing the business, and the way 
 that business is regulated, do they not entirely differ in 
 each case? 
 
 A. I think there are some points similar. 
 Q. Don't thej' in tlie main differ '( 
 
 A. No, I think not, in the main. ^^0^ 
 
 Q. You think there is little difference between one 
 passenger line crossing another passenger line witli noth- 
 ing running over but passenger trains between termini 
 not far distant, and a crossing over ten tracks in a freight 
 yard where switching is done, you think there is not a 
 great deal of difference ? 
 
 A. I think there is some difference. 
 Q. Wherein would you say the differences are? 
 A. Well, the differences are in the manner of ope- 
 rating. I know nothing of the details of their manner 
 of operation. Their operation, their manner of opera- 
 tion there may be fully as good as the manner of opera- 
 ting through trains on any other line under another 
 party. 
 
 Q. And by a system of arranging their trains in ref- 
 erence to each other, a great many difficulties and cer- 
 tainly delays, can be obviated at the crossings of the 21qi^ 
 Manhattan railroad ? 
 
 A. Yes, possibly they could. 
 
 Q. Now, is it possible by any such arrangement to 
 obviate, in any degree, difficulties and delays arising 
 there just as the business is done ? 
 A. I testified, I thought, by — 
 
 Q. Apart from the re-arranging of tracks, and by a 
 system of arranging their trains in reference to each 
 other, a great many difficulties and certainly delays, can 
 
528 
 
 "ilOS be oliviated at tlie crossings of the Manhattan railroad, I 
 mean any arrangement bearing on the running time of 
 trains ? 
 
 A. And with the tracks in the position they are ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir, with the sitnation as it is? 
 
 A. It may be. 
 
 Q. How could it be ? 
 
 A. Well, not being familiar with the details, I say, 
 the operating of roads at that point, there are, however, 
 oi()i) places operated in the country iu which crossings are 
 made very frequent, and in which danger is almost en- 
 tirely obliterated. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other crossing which resembles 
 this proposed crossing by the Lackawanna in its charac- 
 teristics as to the business done, in all of its characteris- 
 tics, if you know another like it ? 
 
 A. Taking the crossing as it stands, with the tracks 
 arranged as they are, it is a little difterent perhaps from 
 2110 the generality of crossings. 
 
 Q. ])<! you kncjw of any crossing, except the straight 
 crossing of the general railroad, of one railroad company 
 by the general railroad of another railroad company? 
 
 A. I think you have it right here in Buffalo. 
 
 Q. What one in Buffalo ? 
 
 A. The one of the Niagara Falls branch, or the sid- 
 ings adjoining, and run as I believe by the New York 
 Central, in which thev are making up trains and hauling 
 
 9111 "^ 
 
 trains backward and forward over the crossing of the 
 International line from the city of Buifalo to the bridge 
 on the Erie road, or Erie International. 
 
 Q. At what point is that crossing in reference to the 
 International bridge ? 
 
 A. It is north of the bridge, north and east. 
 
 Q. Will yon point out where that is on the map? 
 
 Witness indicates. 
 
 A. It is where the Erie International railway passes 
 
Barrian xj 529 
 
 over the Niagara Falls branch of the New York Central 211^ 
 on their way to the bridge, and the New York Central 
 yard, as I have seen it, lies on each side of the main line 
 of the Niagara Falls branch of their road, and I have 
 seen trains drilling backwards and forwards on that same 
 crossing. 
 
 Q. Don't you know that all the tracks on the river 
 side of the New York Central are Erie tracks? 
 
 A. That may be, bnt I am speaking of trains that I 
 have seen drilling, and the block signal used in different 2113 
 positions while I have been passing on the west side of 
 the same point. 
 
 Q. Do you compare that crossing in reference to the 
 business done over it to the crossing in question here of 
 the Lake Shore and Erie tracks? 
 
 A. It is a crossing which drilling is done over to a 
 certain extent. 
 
 Q. That is that you have observed when you have 
 
 V ^ fi ^ 3114 
 
 been down there ; 
 
 A. That I have observed myself. 
 
 Q. Is that crossing in a freight yard ? 
 
 A. It is not exactly, as I will saj', in the freight yardj 
 but it is in coimection with it, -and they move over it in 
 doing their work, or the}^ did at these particular times 
 when I saw it. 
 
 Q. With that exception do you know any other cross- 
 
 ^"^- , . .2115 
 
 A. I think I do at this same map, the crossmg of 
 
 the Buffalo, New York and Piiiladelphia, their main line 
 
 and that of the New York Central near North Division 
 
 street, the four tracks as I rememljcr cross here with the 
 
 New York Central at a point where a great quantity of 
 
 freight is moving at all times togetiier with passengei-s. 
 
 •Q. Where any trains are made up and switching is 
 
 done ? 
 
 A. I could not testify as to that, bnt the trains and 
 
530 
 
 3116 numbers, and the number of cars that pass over I think 
 will compare favorably with the point mentioned. 
 
 Q. But 3'ou cannot say that there is carried on the 
 same kind of business? 
 
 A. It may be. 
 
 Q. The making up and the distributing and assorting 
 of trains that is carried on at this crossing in question, 
 I don't care what it may be, I want simply what you 
 know, if it is the fact, it will no doubt appear, if you 
 
 3117 know it is, or if you don't know it? 
 
 A. I stated all I know of it. 
 
 Q. You don't know whether that kind of business is 
 carried on there or not? 
 
 A. I cannot say that I do. 
 
 Q. Now then, any other crossing ? 
 
 A. Let uie look at the map again, as a matter of 
 
 crossing I think there is one located between Seneca and 
 
 Clinton streets west of Babcock, in which the Erie, the 
 2118 
 
 Buffalo and Philadelphia, and the transfer-track of the 
 
 Buifalo Creek railway intercept one another, in points, 
 
 taking it as a triangle not more according to this map 
 
 than four hundred feet apart, the points of the triangle. 
 
 Q. That is the main line of the Erie and the Buflalo 
 Creek, and the Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia 
 roads intersect eacli other according to such a triangle? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, not only the main line of the Erie, but 
 „^^Q their river freight, speaking of tlie danger more particu- 
 larly, the danger of crossing of trains and the amount 
 of travel that goes over those three points of crossing. 
 
 Q. How well acquainted are you with that crossing ? 
 
 A. Nothing more than from necessity. 
 
 Q. How many times have you seen it? 
 
 A. I conhi not tell you, every time I have ridden 
 over it I have seen it going in and out of Buffalo. 
 
 Q. On trains ? 
 
 A, On trains. 
 
Barriau x] 531 
 
 Q. How many times has your mind been brought to 3120 
 bear by actual observation to a consideration of the busi- 
 ness done, and the questions at that crossing ? 
 
 A. Every time I have passed over it I think I have 
 noticed it. 
 
 Q. Whenever you have passed over it ? 
 
 A. It has been called to it from the fact of the mere 
 crossing. 
 
 Q. Outside of the city of Buffalo do you know any 
 crossing in your experience as an engineer similiar to 3131 
 this one? 
 
 A. Not precisely similar. 
 
 Q. Do you know any crossing in the freight yard of 
 any other railroad ? 
 
 A. I think 1 do know of one. 
 
 Q. Where is that? 
 
 A. Whether it is in operation or not — in the city of 
 Buffalo, or anj'where. 
 
 Q. Outside of the city of Buffalo ? ^^^^ 
 
 A. Not any that is in operation ; there is one on the 
 map. 
 
 Q. That is at the point of crossing there; that is a 
 freight yard tliere, is it not ? 
 
 A. I believe so. 
 
 Q. Where a great deal of switching and making up 
 of trains and distribution of trains is going on? 
 
 A. At the present, yes, sir. „^„„ 
 
 Q. When you were locating tliis line — did you take 
 that question into consideration at all ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I did, very materially. 
 
 Q. You knew it was a pretty serious matter ? 
 
 A. 1 knew that there was a crossing at that point, 
 which everything was operated over. 
 
 Q. Just take it as I go along ; we never can lose sight 
 of the fact that there is a crossing there ; you say you 
 gave it very considerable attention ? 
 
632 
 
 2124 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I ask yon if you did that because you regarded it 
 as a very important matter, a serious matter? 
 
 A. I thought it was our duty to locate this line at the 
 most feasible poiat of crossing. 
 
 Q. Do you, as an engineer, consider the location of a 
 line over ten tracks in a freight yard as a matter to be 
 avoided if possible ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it is a matter to be avoided, if possible. 
 '^-^^^ Q. Do you not, as an engineer, think that such a 
 crossing, should be avoided even at a considerable ex- 
 pense ? 
 
 A. There is a limit of course to the expense. 
 
 Q. I mean at a considerable expense ? 
 
 A. Yes, at some expense. 
 
 Q. What would be your estimate of the expense that 
 
 3'ou should go to, to avoid a grade-crossing at a point like 
 
 that? 
 2136 
 
 A. That would depend entirely upon the business of 
 
 the New York, Lackawanna and Western Road, and 
 
 what they could aftbrd to do. 
 
 Q. As an engineer in question, you say that that is a 
 condition of things which should lie avoided if possible? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I will limit it, though it is a condition of 
 things to be avoided if possible, when the crossing is first 
 laid. 
 2127 Q. I am now talking about the precise crossing that 
 you locate, if that was a condition of things to be avoided, 
 you speaking as a sound engineer, if possible ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it is to be avoided, if possible. 
 
 Q. Then I will ask you if it could be avoided by a 
 considerable expenditure of money, if, as a good engi- 
 neer, you would not go to that expense ? 
 
 A. Well, that depends very materially upon the mat- 
 ters connected with it. 
 
BaiTian xj 533 
 
 Q. That depends very materially upon the road which 3128 
 you are locating ? 
 
 A. And the position of tlie road that I cross, and the 
 relations of that road with other roads at that point. 
 
 Q. Is there any other question at that point, is there 
 any obstacle in the way of an over-head crossing of those 
 tracks ? 
 
 A. On general principles there is no obstacle, there is 
 no physical diiBcnlty. 
 
 Q. Is there an}' engineering obstacle of any Itind to a ^129 
 crossing there by an over-head ? 
 
 A. Unlimited'by expense there is none. 
 
 Q. The only question that enters into that, is the 
 question of expense ? 
 
 A. Not only in construction, but in operating the 
 road. 
 
 Q. Tlie question of expense in construction, and the 
 question of expense in operation ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^130 
 
 Q. With an over-head crossing substantially bnilt 
 there, do you say that its maintenance and its operation 
 would be more expensive than the expenses involved 
 in the delays in business, and damage to rolling stock, 
 etc., by a grade crossing over ten tracks ? 
 
 A. It might be so. 
 
 Q. Now what might be, we are coming down to the 
 question of your best judgment, which is a very good ^ „ 
 judgment? 
 
 A. I think that answers it, that it might be such. 
 
 Q. You have examined these plans; now, you have 
 made an estimate of what it would cost to build these 
 structures that our plans call for i 
 
 A. An approximate estimate, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And to make that eBtimate,you have had necessarily 
 to take into considei-ation the kind of a structure that 
 would be built ; now, what difference would there be in 
 
534 
 
 2133 the cost of operating over that structure, to operating a 
 road, an ordinary road on the ground, what would be 
 the diiFerence in the expense of operating? 
 
 A. I could not say. 
 
 Q. Tell us what the subject matter of the expendi- 
 ture would be ? 
 
 A. We are speaking of these two particular crossings, 
 one over-head and the other at grade ? 
 
 Q. Precisely ? 
 3133 By Com. Clark : Q. Irrespective of the other condi- 
 tions, do you mean ? 
 
 Mr. Milburn : No, sir ; just as it stands there ; he has 
 spoken of the expense of operation and expense of con- 
 struction ; I want to know what is the expense of opera- 
 tion, I don't understand it? 
 
 A. The expense of operation of the line as proposed 
 here with the grade and the alignment, necessitates a 
 greater expenditure of power to do the business, an ex- 
 ^^^^ penditure that you might find with the trains, operated 
 by the New York, Lackawanna and Western Road, to 
 be sufficient to require the extra use of another engine 
 even in every case. 
 
 Q. Let us see if that is so ; your road goes through 
 Ohio street, don't it ? 
 
 Q. As located now, it does. 
 
 Q. This expense of operation that you speak of is in 
 connection with the grades that our alteration gives you, 
 and the curves ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, in connection with it. 
 
 Q. Now, there is only one curve, is there ? 
 
 A. There ,are three distinct curves as proposed on 
 lines "A" and "B." 
 
 Q. Your own line " B " is on a curve, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I should have said two curves. 
 
 Q. Are those the two parts of the curve which make 
 a reverse curve? 
 
Barrian xj 535 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they are the two parts. ;J136 
 
 Q. Now, coming into a city, and your trains as yon 
 come in there, do you seriously state that the reverse 
 curve is an item of expense in operation ? 
 
 A. Any curve is an item of expense in operation. 
 
 Q. Can you give us anything to measure the ex- 
 pense that you attach to that curve just as it is there ? 
 
 A. Not theoretically in that case,. but there is an ex- 
 pense of operating any road with curves, or any curve. 
 
 Q. Your railroad has curves iu it, has it not? 3137 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has reverse curves in it ? 
 
 A. Not that I know of; there are none on my sixty- 
 three miles. 
 
 Q. Not a single i"e verse curve? 
 
 A. Not a single reverse curve. 
 
 Q. What is our severest curve ? 
 
 A. Our severest is in crossing either tlie Niagara 
 Falls branch of the Erie, or Central north of the city ; 
 I think it is a five-thirty curve. 
 
 Q. This is a what curve ? 
 
 A. This is a three, I believe. 
 
 Q. Now, what is the heaviest grade you have on your 
 part of the line ? 
 
 A. Thirty feet to the mile, and we have lengthened 
 our line materially in the endeavor to reduce the grade- 
 rates on this sixty-three miles, lengthened the line of the ^ 
 
 whole materially. 
 
 Q. Now, could you, in the operation of that road, at- 
 tach any particular expense to this slight reverse curve 
 on our proposed alteration ? 
 
 A. As I say it is expensive to operate any curve, and 
 curves are only introduced in a railway where it is im- 
 possible practically to do away with them. 
 
 Eecess until two o'clock. 
 
 Q. You said, to get back to the starting point, that 
 
536 
 
 21i0 grade-crossing at tliis point should be avoided, if pos- 
 sible? 
 
 A. I SHid that on general principles a grade-crossing 
 slionld be avoided in all cases, speaking of it in rela- 
 tion to a tirst crossing of another road, not in relation tp 
 this particular point. 
 
 Q. Well, yon said that a grade-crossing should be 
 avoided if possible, and in this case the only question 
 that could be considered against an over-head crossing 
 31 J I was the question of expense ; that is a fact, is it not ? 
 
 A. The expense enters largely into it ; 3'e8. 
 
 Q. Is there any other element that enters into the 
 question '. 
 
 A. There is in this case an additional cost in the 
 operation of the road. 
 
 Q. But that is all expense ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is an expense in operating, while the 
 other was expense in construction, I suppose. 
 
 Q. You divide the expense into expense of operation 
 and expense of construction ; the expense of construc- 
 tion is the expense of making these structures necessary 
 to leave your jiresent grade at a certain point, get an 
 over-head crossing, and then return to your grade ? 
 
 A. That is the expense of construction. 
 
 Q. The expense of operation, as I think you said, 
 was the additional expense in the operation of your road, 
 .,-,10 incident to that reverse curve, and the grades which we 
 impose upon you ? 
 
 A. Those are the others that enter into it in that 
 regard. 
 
 Q. And you say you cannot give us figures or pro- 
 portions which would define the amount of expense 
 which you attribute, or would attribute to that reverse 
 curve, or to the grades ? 
 
 A. Not practically ; I have never operated ; it is 
 theoretical with my conclusions in that respect. 
 
Barrian xj 537 
 
 Q. But you cau tliiuk of no otlier expense of opera- 3144 
 tion involved bj' the proposed altered route, than that 
 incident to the reverse curve and the grades which we 
 impose upon you ? 
 
 A. Tliere might be an additional expense in case a 
 connection at grade wanted to be made with the Lake 
 Shore and Michigan Southern Railway, it is quite possi- 
 ble. 
 
 Q. Then you would have from some point or other, 
 to throw off some connecting tracks, would you not? 3145 
 
 A. Some connecting tracks. 
 
 Q. That you would have to do any way ? 
 
 A. Yes, that we would have to do any way. 
 
 Q. You could do it more conveniently on a grade- 
 crossing where yon are now, than an over-head crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you won't say that the expense of the oper- 
 ation of your road incident to that reverse curve, and 
 the grades which we impose upon you, are at all com- 
 parable in amount to the expense and cost involved by a 
 grade-crossing at that point ? 
 
 A. They are certainly to be taken into account in 
 operating this over-head crossing very largely; as I said 
 before, there might possibly arise a case where with the 
 grades that are imposed by this over-head, an extra en- 
 gine would be needed to carry a train, or to shove a 
 train; whereas on the grade-crossing that we now have 0147 
 as projected it could be taken cai'e of with a regular 
 train engine. 
 
 Q. Take now our original profile ; the heaviest grade 
 we impose upon you coming from the Buffalo River 
 direction, would be what? 
 
 A. Fifty-two feet 1 believe is the heaviest ; fifty-two 
 and eight-tenths feet per mile. 
 
 Q. Do you remember what that grade would be in 
 the altered profile ? 
 
538 
 
 2148 A. If I remember rightly, that grade that 1 speak of, 
 the fifty-two and eight-tenths, was a fifty-two grade; 
 leaving then the forty intact ; the forty still remain ap- 
 proaching from the east. 
 
 Q. Then taking our amended profile, then this grade 
 of 40.34 feet to the mile, would be your heaviest grade ? 
 A. From the east. 
 
 Q. Now, whether or not an additional engine would 
 be required there, would depend entirely upon other 
 3149 grades upon your road that you had to climb with the 
 same trains; if you have, coming from the east, a heavier 
 grade than forty feet to the mile, then there could be no 
 such thing as requiring an extra engine ? 
 
 A. If that grade was distributed throughout the line 
 there would be no objection to operating a forty here. 
 
 Q. Supposing that you had a forty-feet grade fifteen 
 miles from here, your train coming along, there could bo 
 no question of an extra engine to be required at this 
 grade, inasmuch as you have come up one grade ? 
 
 A. At a point fifteen miles away it would be no ob- 
 jection to this. 
 
 Q. Now, with the trains, do you know anything 
 about the grades of your line beyond your division ? 
 A. I have an approximate idea. 
 Q. What grades have you ? 
 
 A. You must recollect, first of all, there is nothing on 
 
 2^K,i ^^y division, which is sixty-three miles, greater than a 
 
 thirty, or at a point fifty miles from where we are U'jw 
 
 speaking ; on the direct line there is no grade to exceed 
 
 a thirty. 
 
 Q. Well, what grades are there ? 
 A. Well, east of that I think a thirty-one is a maxi- 
 mum, to the Genesee Valley, going west, 31.68, I think 
 it is, going west from the Genesee Valley ; that is on two 
 hundi-ed miles. 
 
Barrian xj 539 
 
 Q. You are speaking now of trains moving westward .2152 
 from the east ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, taking the difference between a thirty foot 
 to the mile grade and a fortj' foot to the mile, as matter 
 of practical operation of railroads; is that such a differ- 
 ence in grades as to make extra engines necessary ? 
 
 A. It depends entirely upon the length and weight 
 of the train. 
 
 Q. Of course it does, but what I am taking now is, 3153 
 taking this railroad with the grades that you have, and 
 with the curves that you have, would you operate or be 
 likely to operate trains on it coming west that could not 
 get up a forty feet grade without extra power? 
 
 A. It is very proliable that a practical superintendent 
 operating a road would place on his train, knowing his 
 grade, all his engine could possibly do ; he would pro- 
 vide an engine, or provide a train of cars to work his 
 engine to the extent of his grade, a thirty foot grade ; '^'-'^^ 
 additional cars, to get over forty, would necessitate the 
 placing of another engine. 
 
 Q. You really state that as a question of practical 
 operation of a railroad ? 
 
 A. I state it as my opinion. 
 
 Q. Is there any such close calculation in case of this 
 grade on this road ? Would your engine be tuckered 
 out at the bottom of it — do you think they run as close „^ ^^ 
 at that ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think they run as close as that in nine 
 cases out of ten. 
 
 Q. How long is that grade ? 
 
 A. That grade is as projected here, three thousand 
 feet. 
 
 Q. How many cars to the engine can the freight 
 engines pull up a forty-foot grade ? 
 
640 
 
 2156 A. It all depends on the size of the engine, and it 
 would depend on the condition of the cars. 
 
 Q. Take loaded cars, and take the average engine 
 that is in use, on these railroads, and how many loaded 
 cai's call it pnll np a forty-foot grade ? 
 
 A. As I say, I have not operated a road ; I do not 
 propose to limit myself to expressing what I think can 
 be done. 
 
 Q. Well, if you take the longest trains that are 
 
 2157 pulled b}' the New York Central and Hudson River 
 Railroad, over its track, could be pulled by one engine 
 up that forty-foot grade, then your fear of an extra 
 engine at that grade, or any expense from it, would be 
 reduced to a minimum, wouldn't it? 
 
 A. I don't quite understand that question. 
 
 Q. If the longest through-freight trains that are 
 pulled on the New York Central and Hudson River 
 Railroad, with one engine, can be pulled by that engine 
 up a forty-foot grade, why then your anticipation of 
 extra expense at that grade for your trains would he 
 reduced to a minimum ? 
 
 A. I cannot say what the New York Central and 
 Hudson River Railroad are imposing upon their engines. 
 
 Q. You don't know what they do ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You know something about their grades, do you 
 „^^Q not, on their line? 
 
 A. I know something, very little. 
 
 Q. Can you say whether a single engine, the average 
 engine in use, say, on the Lake Shore or New York 
 Central or Erie, whether or not they can pull forty 
 freight cars up a forty-foot grade ? 
 
 A. The Erie has some that can pull that number up 
 a forty-foot grade, and the Central has some that could 
 not pull that number, oi- half that number up a forty- 
 foot grade ; 1 know the Harlem has engines that could 
 
Barrian xj 541 
 
 not pull twenty or seventeen up that grade ; it depends 21(i0 
 altogether on the condition of the rails, the condition 
 of the cars, and the ability of the engine. 
 
 Q. What is tlie greatest grade going east on this 
 proposed alteration ? 
 
 A. The greatest grade on my division is thirty feet 
 per mile. 
 
 Q. No, I say on this proposed alteration ? 
 
 A. It seems to be sixty-six feet to the mile. 
 
 Q. Now, on the amended profile what is that grade? 2101 
 
 A. Fifty-eight six-tenths to the mile. 
 
 Q. How long is that grade ? 
 
 A. Twenty-seven hundred to three thousand feet. 
 
 Q. Is that grade on a straight line? 
 
 A. There is about twelve hundred feet of it on a 
 straight line. 
 
 Q. And what is the curve of the balance of it ? 
 
 A. It is a 1.30 curve ; practically a straight line. 
 
 Q. Going back to this forty feet to the mile grade, is ■^^02 
 that a straight grade ? 
 
 A. The forty-foot grade is on a straight line, the 
 5.28, on the amended twenty-two is on a three-degree 
 curve, all of it. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. What is your rule for the 
 resistence on a curve? 
 
 A. Practically it is inversely as the radius. 
 
 Q. But corresponding feet of elevation — you have 
 some rule of that kind which you use generally ? 
 
 A. Corresponding feet of elevation. 
 
 Q. By Com. McAlpine : Q. A three-degree cnrve 
 is in reference to how many feet per mile ? 
 
 A. Well, it is practical to reduce to two feet to the 
 mile for each degree of curvature; roughly stated, it 
 depends altogether on circumstances, two feet to two 
 and a half. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. Now, I come to the 
 
542 
 
 3164 question whether you can say that the increased expense 
 of operation by virtue of the grades and curves on our 
 proposed alteration, is as to amount, any way compatible 
 with the expense and loss by delay of the crossing of 
 those ten trades at grade ? 
 
 A. I think that is determined entirely by the busi- 
 ness that the road may do; it is a matter that cannot 
 be estimated entirely simply by the relation of grade 
 and lines, and position of that crossing. 
 2165 Q. Assume that in all this matter — these commis- 
 sioners have got to assume about the amount of j'our 
 business — and assume that you had as much business 
 over that line as the Erie does over its line at tliat 
 point? 
 
 A. Well, T would rather not state my opinion con- 
 cerning that ; I would prefer it would be placed in .the 
 hands of somebody who is competent to give it bv the 
 service and experience that they have had in operating. 
 " Q. How much deliberation did you give to that ques- 
 
 tion before locating that grade-crossing ? 
 
 A. 1 visited the place several times, noticed, as far as 
 I could by the eye, the movement of trains back and 
 forth, the switching and making up of trains, etc. 
 
 Q. Did you consider any other line to obviate that? 
 
 A. The point governing the matter most materially 
 was that of the existing crossing; that being placed 
 ^ there, first; the next point was to bring our crossing as 
 near as possible to that so that but one stop could be 
 made, and that the line in crossing the tracks would in- 
 terefere as little as possible with the position of frogs 
 and switches as they then existed on the ground. 
 
 Q. Now, did you consider any means of avoiding a 
 grade-crossing at that point? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I did ; the line was selected in reference 
 to both a grade and an over-head crossing. 
 
Barrian xj 543 
 
 Q. And what led you to choose a grade in prefer- 2168 
 ence to the over-head crossing ? 
 
 A. Ver}' largely, the position and operation of the 
 present crossing. 
 
 Q. That determined your decision in favor of a 
 grade-crossing? 
 
 A. That was one of the points that determined it. 
 
 Q. What other points determined you in favor of 
 that? 
 
 A. The desirability of making and interchanging 2169 
 freight, etc., with the existing roads, the Erie, Lake 
 Shore and Michigan Southern ; that entered into the 
 conclusion as to the grade-crossing. 
 
 Q. Any other? 
 
 A. And the position of existing streets, either east or 
 west of the intersection of the Erie and Michigan South- 
 ern and Lackawanna, we thought it preferable, or I 
 thought it preferable, that we should cross those streets 
 at as near grade, or projected grade, as possible, rather 1-1^0 
 than to shut up or shut out from view, make an unpleas- 
 ant structure that an over-head crossing would neces- 
 sitate. 
 
 Q. In the street? 
 
 A. In the street and between the streets. 
 
 Q. And ai'e you still of that same opinion, that the 
 facts, all the facts connected with the business, the sur- 
 roundings there, show a grade-crossing to be superior to 
 an over-head crossing at that point ? 
 
 A. I think a grade crossing would be preferable. 
 
 Q. You are still of that same opinion ? 
 
 A. I am still of that opinion. 
 
 Q. And the reasons that a grade-crossing is prefer- 
 able to an over-head crossing, are the reasons that you 
 have given there, that you can more conveniently con- 
 nect with the Erie and the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. That is one of them. 
 
544 
 
 -172 Q. That it will be less unsightly to liave strnctures 
 over the streets than grade-crossings of the streets, that 
 is another? 
 
 A. Yes ; and the other was the existence and opera- 
 tion of the present crossing. 
 
 Q. xVnd you do not deny but what a crossing there 
 that 3'on propose, will operate as another serious ele- 
 ment of delay of business at that point, do you ? 
 
 A. Why, probably it will canse a delay, an extra 
 2173 delay. 
 
 Q. It will cause all the delay incideiit to the suspen- 
 sion of business there, whenever you are using either 
 one of those crossings? 
 
 A. Quite probably. 
 
 Q. Have you taken any steps to estimate the amount 
 of that delay, or the etfect of that delay upon the Lake 
 Shore or Erie railways? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, we have. 
 
 Q. Have you personally ? 
 
 A. We have made estimates of the business that is 
 now being transacted there, and deduced from that what 
 might happen in case we crossed there, and which we 
 shall bring here. 
 
 Q. Had you done that when you located your 
 crossing? 
 
 A. We had not done that as completely as we have 
 2^^. at the present time, but we had to a certain extent. I 
 would like to say here, in connection with this, in speak- 
 ing of the length of time that is really occupied in cross- 
 ing and re-crossing tlaat track by the existing roads, that 
 we have prepared, aud will show here, a gi'aphic descrip- 
 tion of the movement of trains at that point, that have 
 actually taken place at certain times within the past few 
 days, showing the passage of each and every car, and the 
 length of time that existed between those cars, and the 
 
Barrian x] 545 
 
 time and per cent, that the crossing has really been 31 7G 
 occupied. 
 .Q. That is a recent matter? 
 
 A. That is a recent matter, but it liad been entered 
 into at the time of our crossing, to a certain extent, so 
 far as to get an approximate idea of the length of time 
 that was actually occupied by merely counting of tlie 
 car?. 
 
 Q. Now, as a matter of danger, do you, as an en- 
 gineer constructing a road, a main passenger line, too, ~^'''^'^ 
 consider it good engineering to prefer a grade-crossing of 
 ten tracks in pretty active use at one point where switch- 
 ing is going on ? 
 
 A. I think that that matter has been practically de- 
 cided by the Lake Shore people at that very point. 
 
 Q. No; I am asking you now what you consider it. 
 I want to see what your estimate there is of the obliga- 
 tion of your road to tlie public, and what your estimate 
 of the danger is there? '^ 
 
 A. There is undoubtedly danger at every grade- 
 crossing, danger to life and limb, and danger to the 
 rolling-stock of the companies that \niiy be operating 
 the crossing, and as a matter of danger, and to be looked 
 upon in the light of saving life or property, it is objec- 
 tionable at all times, but taking into consideration at 
 this particular point a crossing which has been operated 
 for sometime by a through trnnk line like the Lake 0170 
 Shore and ]\lichigan Southern, they undoubtedly have 
 all the means at their disposal, and they have nsed those 
 means to modify, and protect people, passengers, and 
 their property ; and I can see no reasonable objection 
 wliy the Lackawaima road should not, with the conven- 
 iences that are now at hand, make the same crossing. 
 
 Q. The crossing of the Lackawanna at this point is 
 more aggravated than any crossing there is there to-day, 
 is it not ? 
 
546 
 
 3180 A. It is with the existing position of tracks. 
 
 Q. It crosses more tracks, its trains will have to pass 
 over more crossings than any trains at the present time 
 liave to cross ? 
 
 A. With the tracks situated as they are, they do. 
 
 Q. You cannot, at such a place as this, take any 
 other precautions against accident than those that are 
 finally dependent upon the care and diligence of em- 
 ployees ? 
 2181 A. Yes, sir, you can. 
 
 Q. Well, vchat can be done ? 
 
 A. I say that you can ; as I understand this crossing, 
 the right of way for whichever road may be crossing 
 is fii'st handled by the target man ; it depends upon him 
 a muscular action on his part, to place the target, and 
 it depends then from the target to the eye-sight of the 
 engineer to understand the signal ; there are automatic 
 arrangements, and they are in operation on other roads, 
 ■«183 ^rjjere the eye-sight alone, or the only risk of color 
 blindness is involved. 
 
 Q. Can you devise any automatic machine which 
 will take in the situation from moment to moment 
 there, and control that target? We have not here a 
 system of electrical contrivances such as there are at 
 Forty-second street, but I mean at this crossing? 
 
 A. There might be such an arrangement that will 
 21 8S ^^ ^^^'^ ' '*' "^'S^t cause delay, but it will be safe. 
 
 Q. It finally has its dependence both with engineers 
 on trains approaching, and men who have the target in 
 case, on the faithfulness and diligence and care of those 
 employees ? 
 
 A. It depends on the eye-sight, the power of dis- 
 tinction on the part of the engineer onlj', the matter I 
 am speaking of, the automatic process. 
 
 Q. There may be misunderstandings of signals? 
 
Barrian xj 547 
 
 A. There can be no misunderstanding of signals in :il84 
 this case, excepting by . eye-sight. 
 
 Q. There is always the contingency of negligence 
 and a lack of care on the part of employees at such a 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. There always has been. 
 
 Q. And there will at this crossing ? 
 
 A. I think there probably will be. 
 
 Q. One of the most positive and certain factors in the 
 operation of a railroad is a certain amox;nt of negligence 3185 
 and want of care on the part of its employees, resulting 
 in accidents? 
 
 A. No doubt negligence presents itself in the opera- 
 tion of crossings at times. 
 
 Q. Do you not think it is the main duty of engineer- 
 ing skill in building railroads at the present time, es- 
 pecially crossings of trunk lines where large passenger 
 
 business is done, to avoid arrangements even at a large 
 
 • 2186 
 expense, which will place the lives of passengers in 
 
 jeopardy ? 
 
 A. Most certainly it should be done, but this case is 
 one in the city of Buffalo where connections with other 
 roads are expected to be made, and that, if we are up, 
 as you propose, placing us here, or if we should attempt 
 to cross at all places, points that would be reasonably 
 expected to form connection, it would very much delay 
 and add to the cost and expense in operating and inter- 
 changing freight and passengers to these lines. 
 
 Q. Well, you can't transfer your passengers at that 
 point, can yon, to any other railroad? 
 
 A. I cannot say what we may do. 
 
 Q. Do you say that you can, or from anything that 
 you may know, that you can transfer your passengers to 
 the Lake Shore Railroad at that point ? 
 
 A. I haven't the faintest idea what might be done. 
 
 Q. Where is your passenger depot fixed for ? 
 
548 
 
 3188 A. Our general passenger depot, tlie city terininus, 
 is fixed at Erie street, in no way connected with Ex- 
 change street. 
 
 Q. That is on this same street — Erie street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; at the foot of this sti-eet. 
 
 Q. Are there any arrangements at present existing 
 at the Lake Shore by which you could transfer your 
 passenger business at that crossing ? 
 
 A. There is notliing necessarily fixed by them. 
 2189 Q. There is notliing there to-day, is there ? 
 
 A. Tliere is nothing there to-day, but if we were at 
 grade, it is not a difficult matter to see how we can place 
 a i", or rather a curve to tlie Lake Shore, and place' 
 it in a position tliat we could exchange passengers if we 
 chose to do so. 
 
 Q. You could bring tliat line at other places to con- 
 nect witli it, could you not ? 
 
 A. It might be that we could — possibly we could. 
 
 Q. Tlien you wouldn't say that it is a proper thing 
 to do, because you want to connect with a railroad ; that 
 therefore necessarily j'ou must run yonr main line over 
 all its tracks througli a freight yard, would you call 
 that good engineering, siniiil}- to get a connection ? 
 
 A. Well, 1 believe it has been done in other cases. 
 
 Q. I don't care whether it has been done or not, I 
 I am asking you whether you would consider it good 
 engineering, simply to get connection with another rail- 
 road, to run your railroad across all its tracks and its 
 freight yards? 
 
 A. It would depend entirely upon the position of its 
 tracks. 
 
 Q. At this point? 
 
 A. At this point where a crossing is now in operation, 
 and where a stop is necessary on the part of trains run- 
 ning there, I think a grade-crossing is preferable, as I 
 said before, to an over-head crossing. 
 
Barrian x] 649 
 
 Q. I am speaking now solely with reference to that 2192 
 one point; if you call it good engineering at that point 
 simply to get an imaginary connection with the Lake 
 Shore road, or say, to get a connection with the Lake 
 Shore, to run your railroad across all their tracks, and 
 their freight yard ? 
 
 A. I didn't say that that was the object of that grade- 
 crossing. 
 
 Q. You said that that was one of the reasons deter- 
 mining you to fix that a grade-crossing ? x!193 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I said that a connection with the Michi- 
 gan Southern road conld be made more easily and at less 
 expense crossing at grade, than it can to connect through 
 the means or by your proposed route. 
 
 Q. I dare say that is so, but I take this situation as it 
 is, and I ask you if it is good engineering to throw your 
 railroad at grade across the Lake Shore at that point, 
 simply to get a connection with it ? 
 
 A. I don't say we throw it across that point simply '^^'^^ 
 to get connection. 
 
 Q. But I ask you if that would be good engineering? 
 
 A. Not for that particular reason, no ; for that sole 
 reason, no. 
 
 Q. Then simply because there is a grade-crossing 
 there to-day, of the Lake Shore by the Erie for their ex- 
 change business,- that would lead you to say that the ex- 
 istence of one grade-crossing makes the existence of sev- ^ 
 eral grade-crossings at the same point a matter of little 
 importance ? 
 
 A. No, I don't say that. 
 
 Q. Then what does that reason that you give lead to 
 but that ? 
 
 A. The way I expressed it, the matter of that cross- 
 ing being at that point, was one of the jDoints which de- 
 termined the best position for placing a grade-crossing. 
 
 Q. If there was to be a grade-crossing? 
 
550 
 
 3196 A. If there was to be a grade-crossing. We propose 
 making and constructing a grade-crossing, j'ou propose 
 to carry us over. Now, if we are to have a grade-cross- 
 ing, as I said before in my testimony, I believe that that 
 would be the best place to place it. 
 
 Q. Because there is one stop there already ? 
 A. For that very reason. 
 
 Q. The same applies to the proposed altered crossing. 
 The same stopping would accomplish both. The matter 
 
 3197 of two hundred feet makes no difference on that point? 
 
 A. The nearer you could approach the crossing that 
 exists the better it would be. 
 
 Q. The matter of two hundred feet there would make 
 no difference on that point as requiring any more than 
 that one stop. The same stop will do whether the cross- 
 ing is where you put it, or where we suggest it. 
 
 A. It might do, probably it would. 
 
 Q. Well, what would you think is the number of 
 ;.1.»8 railroads that should run at grade over that point — if 
 one just divides two, where is the limit? You said that 
 one of the reasons that led yon to make that a crossing 
 at grade was that there was already a grade-crossing. 
 Now, then, when should we get to the end of that sort 
 of thing? 
 
 A. It would depend altogether on what proposed 
 coming there, and what it was proposed to do. 
 
 Q. Would that same argument be a good aro-ument 
 for another trunk line ? 
 
 A. It does not necessarily hold good that another 
 should cross there, and it does not necessarily hold good 
 that another should not cross there. 
 
 Q. Then at what point does the present existence of 
 a crossing give out, as a reason for more crossings ? 
 
 A. I am considering the crossinj;- of the Lackawanna, 
 not what any other case might be. 
 
 Q. Ton think the point might be reached when the 
 
Barrian x] 551 
 
 existence of crossings would not be a good reason for 2300 
 other crossings ? 
 
 A. Probably it would. 
 
 Q. There is no other crossing of a large number of 
 these tracks there than your own crossing? 
 
 A. I believe that is all. 
 
 Q. So that on this track engines can move backwards 
 and forwards now, without any reference to the target ? 
 
 A. On those tracks, outside of the main line, they can 
 move in that way. 3301 
 
 Q. Then, as to all the lines outside of the main lines, 
 trains can move backwards and forwards to-day without 
 any reference to target, which, the moment you come 
 there, will have to stop for the target ? 
 
 A. With the present arrangements of tracks they 
 would. 
 
 Q. So that there is an amount of stopping there 
 wliich comes in as an addition by your crossing that does 
 not exist to-day ? ^^^^ 
 
 A. It would with the tracks in their present position. 
 
 Q. You think, yourself, do you not, that to carry on 
 that business feasibly, that is, carried on there, a re- 
 aiTangement of the tracks and yards is necessary ? 
 
 A. I think that they could be re-arranged to do the 
 business. 
 
 Q. The yards and tracks with reference to the busi- 
 ness that is done tliere now, and the crossing that is there, 
 are they arranged in a way that would approve itself to 
 your mind? 
 
 A. I really know nothing of the arrangement of that 
 yard. 
 
 Q. If you are going to re-arrange it you must know 
 what you are going to re-arrange ? 
 
 A. I am speaking of the arrangement of the yard. 
 
 Q. I mean all this part of the yard ? 
 
 A. I know the number of cars, approximately, being 
 
552 
 
 3204 moved, and iti about what quantities they are moved, 
 and from my knowledge of that I know, or rather think, 
 that an arrangement could be made whereby the same 
 number of cars and the same quantities could be handled 
 and these crossings done away with ; these extra cross- 
 ings that we impose upon the Erie and the Lake Shore. 
 
 Q. You mean the crossings of the cars at this point? 
 
 A. In making up the trains. 
 
 Q. You have been there and have observed ; are the 
 2205 yards arranged now in a waj' that is convenient for the 
 transaction of the business of the Erie and Lake Shore 
 railways under present conditions ? 
 
 A. It seems to do their business. 
 
 Q. The presumption is that the engineers of the 
 Lake Shore and the engineers of the Erie, with that 
 matter under their charge for the last ten years, know 
 somewhat more about it than anj'ljody else ? 
 
 A. Quite likely ; probably they do. 
 
 Q. And the presumption is that they have adopted 
 as good arrangements as there are there for the transac- 
 tion of their business; that would be the presumption? 
 
 A. That would be the presumption ; yes. 
 
 Q. Then you think that the re-arrangement of the 
 yard is something made necessary by the coming in of 
 the Lackawanna crossins-? 
 
 A. No ; I can't say that I think it is made necessary. 
 .,. Q- You think the re-arrangement can be made to- day ' 
 
 and benefit their business without any reference to the 
 Lackawanna crossing ? 
 
 o 
 
 A. I think it could be made so that they could carry 
 on their business — what they are doing now. 
 
 Q. Without any reference to their business? 
 
 A. With reference to their business, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I say without any reference to the Lackawanna 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. I think it could be arranged so that they could 
 
Barrian x ] 553 
 
 do their business vvitliout reference to that crossing; so 2208 
 that they conld do it fiilly as well ; as I undei'stand it, 
 the trains are brought in from the West on the Lake 
 Shore and Michigan Sonthern Railroad ; I understand 
 that they are brought in there, and that all the business 
 that is to be sent to the Erie by way of the transfer- 
 house, is brought back and forth over this crossing to be 
 thrown into this house. Now, I can't see, as an engi- 
 neer, why these trains, coming from this direction, can- 
 not be operated from the north end, with the construe- 2209 
 tion of another transfer-house, and by doing so do away 
 with the necessary switching that they now have to do 
 over these crossings. 
 
 Q. Is there room from this north end ? 
 
 A. There is room, I think, to swing, from say Fulton 
 street, to a point parallel to the present ; well, connect- 
 ing with the Erie road and their transfer track. 
 
 Q. The Erie road where Elk street crosses it ? 
 
 A. Not connecting with it where Elk street crosses '^^^^ 
 it, but rnnniug parallel with the Erie road and construct- 
 ing their transfer-house at a point somewhere between 
 Fulton street and the street north of it. 
 
 Q. Is that the re-arrangement ? 
 
 A. I am speaking of this switching that is being 
 
 done ; disposing of a portion of that switching that is 
 
 now being done back and forth over this crossing into 
 
 the transfer-house ; it would obviate that portion of the 
 
 2211 
 work that they now do over that crossing. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. "V^ould that obviate the work of 
 selecting cars and making up trains they speak of? 
 
 A. No, sir; it would not obviate that portion, but it 
 would obviate the throwing these trains back and forth 
 in order to get the freight into that transfer-house, which 
 is very considerable. 
 
 Q. That is all it would obviate ? 
 
 A. It would obviate that operation, I think. 
 
654 
 
 2212 Q. That would involve the giving up of this transfer- 
 house ? 
 
 A. Not necessarily ; they could run out here and 
 switch into that or alongside of it ; that was simply one 
 proposition — that they might build a transfer-house 
 where I said — but they might run out here and run back 
 into this same house ; I see no great physical difficulty 
 about tearing that out. 
 
 Q. A good deal of land, around here, then, that is 
 
 2213 not owned — as it appears by this map — by these railway 
 companies, would have to be acquired for that purpose ? 
 
 A. Not such a very great deal — so much as is neces- 
 sary. 
 
 Q. This triangle would have to be acquired, would 
 it not? 
 
 A. A portion probably would. 
 
 Q. If you were going to run a track through that 
 way, yon have got to buy the wliole of that triangle, 
 have you not — switching tracks, etc. ? 
 
 A. You might have to buy it ; the question is whether 
 that ground could not be made available. 
 
 Q. Then you would have to purchase part of this 
 property lying between Fulton street and Elk street — 
 whatever that distance is — north of Van Rensselaer 
 street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you would have to block up the Abbott 
 road for that switching, would j'on not ? 
 
 A. They might swing outside of the Abbott road. 
 
 Q. If you were going to do that you would have to 
 do your switching on Elk street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; you would liave to use Elk street — 
 occupy a portion of it — crossing it. 
 
 Q. You would have to cross it in a particular longi- 
 tudinal sort of way ? 
 
 A. Very nearly parallel with it ; portions of it in the 
 
 2215 
 
Barrian xj 555 
 
 street ; I say it could be operated in that way ; how con- 2216 
 venient that operation would be 1 can't say. 
 
 Q. Gould it be as well operated in that way as it is 
 operated under tiie present system ? 
 
 A. No, I don't think that it could, unless the delays 
 caused at the crossing would take up more time than the 
 extra switching would take on the proposed route. 
 
 Q. Your arrangement would require more switching 
 to be done? 
 
 A. No, I don't know as- it would require more switch- 3217 
 ing to be done ; it would require moving over a greater 
 length of rail. 
 
 Q. Taking the profile of your line as it is, and taking 
 the profile of this proposed alteration, and where does it 
 strike your grade ? 
 
 A. I cannot tell you, because you have nothing on 
 the projected grade line in elevations to fix it. 
 
 Q. Scale it ? 
 
 A. Oh, scaling don't amount to anything, I don't **^° 
 know the elevation of our grade. 
 
 Q. From what you gave us you know enough to 
 state that the grade of the altered route strikes your 
 present grade before it reaches Louisiana street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it does ; that is, coming from the east, 
 calculating from the east, it would strike us before we 
 reach Louisiana street. 
 
 Q. Is there any engineering obstacle in the way of 
 running right into your grade at that point? 
 
 A. No, sir, none whatever. 
 
 Q. So that if you are carried past your grade and 
 into the earth it is an egregious blunder — it is a blunder 
 of some kind, is it not ? 
 
 A. I can't say it is a blunder ; this is supposed to be 
 the profile that yon have filed for us, the proposed route. 
 
 Q. You would call it a mistake ? 
 
 A. I can't say that it was a mistake; no, sir, I can't. 
 
556 
 
 22:20 Q. Can you see any reason for it? 
 
 A. I can see no reason for it. 
 
 Q. And it is perfectly feasible easterly of Louisiana 
 street, to take the altered line right into the grade of 
 your proposed line ? 
 
 A. Perfectly feasible. 
 
 Q. If our grade was to intersect your located grade, 
 it would intersect it at station 150, that is how far from " 
 station 140 ? 
 2221 A. Two hundred and forty feet east of station 150. 
 
 Q. That, approximately, is where the two grades 
 intersect ? 
 
 A. Approximately, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, assuming that you go from there, from the 
 intersection of that grade, to the Ohio Basin Slip, the 
 Ohio Slip, then you would go on the grade of your 
 located line — it would be same as you have to-day ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 2~^^ Q. And what is that grade ? 
 
 A. The grade as located is four feet and fifteen one- 
 hnndreths per mile. 
 
 Q. Now, do you know where you are going to cross 
 the Ohio Basin Slip, yet ? 
 
 A. "VVe know now the position as fixed by the division 
 engineer of the canal, which has been fixed as I stated 
 before 
 
 Q. Has it been fixed ? 
 
 A. It has been fixed, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is that elevation ? 
 
 A. I could not tell yuu, sitting here. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. How is it fixed, by filing some 
 specification ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; he has made a report on the matter, and 
 given us marks and points to work from. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. How much does he alter 
 
Barrian xj 557 
 
 your proposed line going over there, has he fixed it ? 5}"234 
 
 A. Yes, sir, he has fixed that point. 
 
 Q. Does that alter all your grades there, the point he 
 has fixed ? 
 
 A. It alters our grades to our crossing. 
 
 Q. Has he put you higher in the air there than your 
 located line shows? 
 
 A. He has. 
 
 Q. How many feet ? 
 
 A. I can't say. 2225 
 
 Q. Approximately, don't j'ou know ? 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. How does it affect the grade? 
 
 A. It increases the grade, depending on how far back 
 we carry it. 
 
 Q. Supposing you start out your grade from where 
 you do now^ or near Louisiana street, what will it be? 
 
 A. I can't say, because I don't know the position of 
 the point fixed by the State engineer. 
 
 Q. You have a pretty good idea of what point he 
 has fixed for yon to go over that slip ? 
 
 A. If I did I would state it. 
 
 Q. Don't you know how many feet he has changed 
 you? 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Is there a bridge across the 
 Ohio Slip at that place, now ? 2227 
 
 A. JSlot at that place. 
 
 Q. Is there one near there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know the elevation of it ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. You can't state at what 
 point or what elevation you are to cross the Ohio Slip ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; if I could I should have done so. 
 
558 
 
 3228 Q. But you know that it is so changed that you have 
 to steepen your gj'ades on each side of it? 
 
 •A. Slightly, as I remember it. 
 
 Q. But you can't tell how ranch you are going to 
 steepen your grade until you go there, where you are go- 
 ing to run it out. Now, can you run that grade out, or 
 is it likely that you will run that grade out east of this 
 point where our proposed line or proposed grade inter- 
 sects your proposed line ? 
 2229 A. We may. 
 
 Q. What is the probability of it ? 
 
 A. Probably we will. 
 
 Q. How much east of that ? 
 
 A. Oh, a vei-y short distance perhaps ; I can't say 
 really. 
 
 Q. Will yon figure that up for us ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Will you take the engineer's elevation, the super- 
 ^230 iutendent of public works, whatever it is, his elevation, 
 and run out your grade, and let us know what that will 
 be, and where you will affect that here ? 
 
 A. I will do so if it is wished. 
 
 Q. I should like you to do it. Now, how do you go 
 on past that Ohio Basin slip — it is pretty near that that 
 you strike Ohio street, is it not? 
 
 A. You strike Ohio street, I can't say how far from 
 
 that without a map. 
 2'231 
 
 A. About eleven or twelve hundred feet before we 
 
 strike Ohio street ; about a quarter of a mile. 
 
 Q. How far is it from Louisiana street before these 
 two grades strike each other, the altered grade and the 
 other grade, to the Ohio Basin slip ? 
 
 A. Six hundred feet. 
 
 Q. Now, how far is it from the Ohio Basin slip to 
 your crossing of the New York Central and Hudson 
 River Railroad at Ohio street ? 
 
Barrian x J 559 
 
 A. About one thousand five hundred feet — fourteen 2333 
 or fifteen hundred. 
 
 Q. And your grade from the Ohio Basin slip to the 
 crossing of the New Yorjj Central is soinewheres about 
 five feet to the mile ? 
 
 A. About five feet to the mile. 
 
 Q. Which way does that grade run ? 
 
 A. It is an up-grade going east from the New York 
 Central crossing to the Ohio Basin slip. 
 
 Q. What is your base line ? ^^^^ 
 
 A. Our base line is seven feet below the water level 
 of the canal at Ohio basin. 
 
 Q. Do yon know that you have had negotiations with 
 the Now York Central in regard to their crossing at Ohio 
 street ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I don't. 
 
 Q. Don't you know that it has been agreed between 
 
 the New York Central and vour road at the crossing of 
 
 3234 
 the New York Central at Ohio street that you shall go 
 
 over-head there ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I don't. 
 
 Q. You don't know that that has been done ? 
 
 A. I don't know that it has been consummated; I 
 know it has been talked of. 
 
 Q. If it has been consummated, that again alters all 
 your grades there, doesn't it? 
 
 A. It would alter the grade of the crossings or the 2235 
 approaches of the New York Central at Ohio street. 
 
 Q. It would alter the grade all the way from the 
 Ohio slip, wouldn't it? 
 
 A. I don't know but it would ; I say I don't know 
 but it would ; our crossing of the Ohio Basin slip might be 
 raised, and the grade run out to a point beyond, making 
 an easier approach; I don't know that it would be. 
 
 Q. If you cross the New York Central tracks at Ohio 
 
560 
 
 '2,!30 street sixteen feet in the cleai-, where will that take your 
 grade to in the direction of the Ohio Basin slip ? 
 
 A. It might take onr grade five thousand feet, and it 
 might take it three thousand ; -I can't say what grade 
 has been fixed upon. 
 
 Q. But if yon have taken there sixteen feet clear at 
 Ohio street, your grade will be altered over at least from 
 three to five thousand feet? 
 
 A. It is possible that it may ; I don't know anything 
 "^ ' about this arrangement, what has been talked over or 
 what has not. 
 
 Q. Don't you know that that proposition has been 
 made by your company to cross the New York Central 
 tracks at tliat point, in the manner that I have stated? 
 A. All I know of the matter is that last evening Mr. 
 Archibald spoke to me and asked me tu walk with him 
 over a portion of this property between the New York 
 _, Central crossing and Ohio Basin slip towards Main 
 street ; how far the negotiations have been carried, or 
 wliat the proposition was, I know nothing about. 
 
 Q. But you know the fact that negotiations are pend- 
 ing there to obviate a grade-crossing of the Central 
 track ? 
 
 A. I understand from Mr. Archibald only that Mr. 
 
 Tillinghast had talked some with him concerning an 
 
 over-head crossing ; that is just the extent of it, and all. 
 
 2239 Q- Have you got the details of your estimate of 
 
 $490,000? 
 
 A. I have the details of that approximate estimate, 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you give them to us ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. (Witness produces a paper.) That is 
 an approximate estimate over and above tlie cost of con- 
 struction of these two lines as proposed by the New 
 York, Lackawanna and Western. 
 
Barrian xj 661 
 
 Q. You have included here a bridge over the Buf- 3340 
 falo River, have you not ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Milburn offered in evidence the paper referred to, 
 received and inarlved " Exhibit No. 7." 
 
 Q. By the simple device where our proposed line 
 strikes the grade of your line, continuing from that point 
 on the grade of your own line, you obviate this grade of 
 125 feet to the mile, whicli you spoke of in your direct 
 testimony ? 3341 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you said, to take them both as over- head 
 crossings, the location of your route was far superior to 
 the location of our route, our alteration ; now, will you 
 state wherein it is superior? 
 
 A. Why, it does away with the curvatures which we 
 
 now have as proposed by you. 
 
 Q. Does away with just what curves? 
 
 ^ 094^0 
 
 A. It does away with those reverse curves as shown 
 
 by your location, and does away with the seven- degree 
 
 curve also shown by your location, instead of a 2.42 as 
 
 shown by the Lackawanna, you have two three-degi-ee 
 
 curves on a reverse where we have a straight line. 
 
 Q. Those reasons are really in the approaches to the 
 crossing, not in the crossing itself? 
 
 A. In speaking of the crossing, why one over-head 
 line should be preferred to another, you have got to take 
 more than a mere crossing into consideration. 
 
 Q. Do you see anything at the point of crossing the 
 tracks for your opinion, tliat your is the superior point of 
 crossing to the proposed alteration ? 
 
 A. I think that we could do away with some bridg- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. It will require less bridging ? 
 
 A. It will require less bridging upon the line of as 
 proposed by the Lackawanna. 
 
562 
 
 3244 Q' Will it require longer or shorter spans ? 
 
 A. Well, taking it in my own view, I should say it 
 would be fully as short. 
 
 Q. Would it take shorter spans on your location than 
 on ours ? 
 
 A. We could get along with as short spans on our 
 location as on the proposed change. 
 
 Q. But to do that, how about interference with this 
 territory of the piers, and abutments, etc., as compared 
 
 004.5 ^'^^ ^"'^ location ? 
 
 A. That is a matter depending on how much you 
 might say you need of the space underneath. 
 
 Q. Supposing we need it all, how about the interfer- 
 ence? 
 
 A. If you need it all in both cases ? 
 
 Q. Yes, but there you take that situation just as it is, 
 as you know it, and how about the interference of the 
 piers on your location as compared with the interference 
 2246 of the piers on our location ? 
 
 A. I think we could use spans quite as short as those. 
 
 Q. But would it not throw your piers at a point where 
 they are less desirable in reference to the interests of the 
 Lake Shore and the Erie than they are on our proposed 
 location ? 
 
 A. I can't judge what you might think was necessary 
 at that point under our projected line, for the extension 
 of your tracks, that is a matter that rests entirely with 
 22^' persons operating their own road. 
 
 Q. What is the greatest grade on your road '? 
 
 A. I only know from hearsay. 
 
 Q. Do you know from maps ? 
 
 A. Only from hearsay, from talk, verbal expressions. 
 
 Q. So far as yon know what is your greatest curve i 
 
 A. I think a 5.30, as I remember it, is a 5.30 curve, 
 five degree, thirty-minute curve at either the crossing of 
 
Barrian x J 563 
 
 the Niagara Falls branch of the Erie or Central road 2248 
 north of the city. 
 
 Q. Have you any reverse curve ? 
 A. No, sir, we have no reverse curve on this division. 
 Q. What is the radius of a 5.30 curve ? 
 A. 1500 feet; no, about 1100 feet. 
 Q. What is that curve marked on your map ; it is a 
 58-degree curved marked on your map, is it not? 
 A. Tliat is what it shows there on the map. 
 Q. So that if we go by your map, we have got a 58- 2249 
 degree curve there? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, still 1 admit mj^ testimony just the same, 
 as being 530, the maximum curve. 
 
 Q. Then the 58-degree curve that your map shows, 
 is one of the points where the Lackawanna engineer got 
 a little astray ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, the " 5 " is probably right ; the min- 
 utes or the hundredths, probably a mistake has been 
 made m. 
 
 Q. A three-degree curve is considered by railroad 
 men a slight curve ? 
 
 A. Oh, it is considered a moderate degree of curvature. 
 Q. Is it not considered a small curve ? 
 A. Moderate. 
 Q. A slight curve? 
 A. It is one in use. 
 
 Q. It is one in frequent enough use, is it not? 
 A. It certainly is used in railroad construction. 
 Q. In a yard wherever one track crosses into another 
 track, have you a reverse curve ? 
 A. Not necessarily. 
 
 Q. Wherever one parallel track crosses into another 
 parallel track, does that form a reverse curve ? 
 A. Not necessarily. 
 Q. What does it form ? 
 
564 
 
 2353 A. It can form a curve in two directions with a tan- 
 gent between. 
 
 Q.' How long is the tangent ? 
 
 A. That depends on the angle at the frog opening. 
 
 Q. To get away from technical distinctions, is it not 
 as ordinarily built, and is it not practically a reverse curve ? 
 
 A. It is. 
 
 Q. So that when yon say that your line is better than 
 this line, so far as its alignment is concerned, you are 
 3353 speaking with simple reference to the fact that in one 
 there is a curve, and the other is straight ? 
 
 A. Tliere is a seven-degree curve in one, which is a 
 fairly sharp curve, one that is not nsed except in very 
 difficult locations. 
 
 Q. Your line "A," crosses the Buffalo Creek Railroad 
 at grade, doesn't it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, will you tell us what is the reason of laying 
 ^^^* out line " A " and line " B " ? 
 
 A. I suppose that is a direct question. The intent of 
 line " B " — one intent of line " B," is that of a main line, 
 a main passenger or freight line into the city, the short- 
 cut to tlie city, we expect, and have arranged for the 
 purchase of property on the main line between the Lake 
 Shore and what is known as the Abbott road, sufiicient 
 for a yard. As we have coal docks at the foot of Erie 
 3355 ®''i"'^^*'5 *'^^ Lackawanna road we expect to connect with 
 these coal docks. In operating the road it has been sug- 
 gested that it would be necessary to have this property 
 that I speak of between the Lake Shore and tlie Abbott 
 road. To get that property without empties, instead of 
 moving over this line " B " to the Buffalo and Philadel- 
 phia I'oad and back again to this property with the 
 empties, or coming there with empty freights that 
 may be needed at the elevators, empty box cars for 
 storing grain, or carrying of grain, we have placed 
 
Barrian xj .565 
 
 this line to make a short cut to that yard.' That is one 3356 
 of the reasons entering into the location and filing of 
 these two lines. 
 
 Q. Then your main line for passengers and freight 
 does not pass over this reverse curve and this grade of 
 forty-two feet to the mile ? 
 
 A. I omitted to say, on the start, in connection with 
 this, that this line " B " may be abandoned, it may be 
 abandoned. 
 
 Q. Or line "A," which is the most likely to be 3357 
 abandoned ? 
 
 A. 1 can't say; it is a matter laying with the officei's 
 of the company. 
 
 Q. That one of those roads is likely to be abandoned ? 
 
 A. That one of those roads may be abandoned ; I 
 don't say it is likely. 
 
 Q. But under this statement that you made to us, 
 your main passenger and your main freight business does 
 not pass over this reverse curve and this grade of forty- 
 two feet that we have been talking abont ? 
 
 A. I can't answer it in that way. 
 
 Q. What I say is, on this description that you give 
 us of line " B " as being intended for the passage of your 
 main freight and main passenger business, and that this 
 line was set out here so that you conld bring and take 
 away your empties in refei'ence to your coal docks, un- 
 der that condition of things, your main freight and main 
 passenger busmess does not pass over this reverse curve, 
 nor up this forty-two degree grade ? 
 
 A. I stated that that was the intention of locating 
 this line, that this should be the short cut to the city for 
 their passenger and coal trade, Imt that it may be aban- 
 doned, it depends entirely on circumstances that I have 
 no right to mention -here in connection with this. 
 
 Q. It may be abandoned? 
 
 A. It may be abandoned. 
 
566 
 
 2360 Q. Line " A " may be abandoned, and it is likely, as 
 a matter of engineering, that the best line will be pre- 
 served for your through business? 
 
 A. As a matter of engineering, the shortest line be- 
 tween two points would be most likely to be preserved, 
 but as a matter of business, that the company nnay have 
 in view, line "B" may be abandoned. 
 
 Q. Can yon not put in lands that you may get here 
 switched out without having a direct line through there? 
 
 2261 A. That line has been located. 
 
 Q. That is all the account that you can give? 
 
 A. That is all the account that 1 am at liberty to 
 mention. 1 think I have given it, stating the intent 
 as expressed to me, in part. 
 
 Q. Will you explain how joii can make a connection 
 with the Lake Shore at that crossing, without crossing 
 the Buffalo Eiver? You said that one of the reasons in 
 determining you in making a grade-crossing there, was 
 
 2262 t0 get connection with the Lake Shore? 
 
 A. A connection can be made. 
 
 Q. Where? 
 
 A. It may be made before you get to the river from 
 line "B." A connection can be made before reaching 
 that bridge, I believe. 
 
 Q. Have you ever taken any measurements to see 
 whether such a connection could be made, or not ? 
 
 A. Only if handled on our located map, but I believe 
 it is possible that the coanection can be made. I have 
 made connections with other roads, with curvatures 
 greater than will be imposed on the connection at this 
 point and in that way. 
 
 Q. What will be the curvature here ? 
 
 A. Nine or ten, perhaps eleven feet. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't it be as short a curve as that indicated 
 on the map here, getting down to the Hudson aud Dela- 
 ware Coal Company's docks ? 
 
Barrian x ] 567 
 
 A. I cannot say. 3364 
 
 Q. From the appearance on the map? 
 
 A. I cannot say anything about that map. 
 
 Q. Take it as it appears on this map, wouldn't it be 
 as sharp a curve as that one there, wouldn't it be a 
 sharper curve than that one there, coming down from 
 the Erie ? 
 
 A. It might be, something that way, an eleven-de- 
 gree curve could be operated there and run over without 
 any trouble there ; we put a twelve-degree curve on the 2365 
 B. H. ife T. on which the solid locomotives run over with 
 heavy trains of cars. 
 
 Q. From 'what point would you say, on line " B," 
 you would project that curve ? 
 
 A. I cannot say from this map where it would be. 
 That map is on too small a scale to determine precisely 
 anything about the relation of lines with each other. 
 
 Q. The proiection that you have made would lead to 
 a crossing with your line A f 
 
 A. If built, I might say in connection with this also 
 what 1 had — the connection can be made from the oppo- 
 site side with the Lake Shore. 
 
 Q. That would all have to cross the Erie, wouldn't it 
 then ? 
 
 A. Their tracks extending down here, it probably 
 would, there ave several cases the connection can be 
 
 made. ^^er 
 
 Q. If line B were abandoned, which will make this 
 connection then with the Lake Shore road from line A 
 without crossing the Buffalo River? 
 
 A. It miglit be, it is possible. 
 
 Q. Will you indicate on that map how it could be 
 done? 
 
 A. Without crossing the Buffalo River ? 
 
 Q. That is what I said ? 
 
 A. 4t could be located in that way. 
 
568 
 
 2-268 Q. Then you would have to cross line A in doing it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I have drawn two lines there. We 
 might connect witli a direct connection, or we might 
 cross our own line. 
 
 Q. When were these lines located, the Lackawanna 
 lines, about? 
 
 A. Some time in the earlj^ part of April, I think. 
 
 Q. Previous to that time were any measurements 
 taken to ascertain whether these connections could be 
 2'^69 made or not, to your knowledge ? 
 
 A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. How many lines were run by the Lackawanna 
 Company before this line was adopted ? 
 
 A. There was only one line run on the ground ; there 
 were projections made — there were no physical features 
 other than those that have been constructed by the laying 
 of tracks. The line was projected in the office several 
 
 times and located very carefully. 
 
 3"-' 70 • ' • 
 
 Q. At what other point did youproject aline in cross- 
 ing there? 
 
 A. Well, the point of direct crossing of the tracks, I 
 think, varied very little in any line. 
 
 Q. I show you map number three. If your road 
 crosses tlie Lake Shore as proposed, it will be necessary 
 to move the switches on the tracks running to the trans- 
 fer-house, would it not? 
 ,^.,^ A. It would be necessary to move one switch. 
 
 Q. On two of the tracks running to the transfer- 
 house, wouldn't it? 
 
 A. It might be necessary to move — if this is shown 
 as it actually is. 
 
 Q. It has been testified that this shows the exact lo- 
 cation of the switches and frogs? 
 
 A. It might be necessary to move one ; I don't know 
 as it would, I don't know that it would. 
 
Barriaii xj 569 
 
 Q. If this is on a scale of fifty feet to the inch, 3273 
 wonldn't it be absolutely necessary ? 
 
 A. 1 think that the switch that I had reference to 
 might bo retained ; possibly this frog would have to be 
 carried a little further back ; that one frog on the Hart 
 track might be carried further in reference to making 
 some sharper curve to get back onto the low grain track 
 as it is here marked, making the run a little longer throw- 
 ing the tracks forming the switch a little further back. 
 
 Q. How would it be at the main line at those switches ? 3373 
 
 A. As it stands now — well, I can say in connection 
 with this, they had been altered materially since the line 
 was projected. 
 
 Q. I didn't ask that ; I said as they are indicated on 
 that map, wouldn't it be necessary to change those I 
 
 A. They .would have to be moved south and north, 
 one switch either way. 
 
 Q. Did you take any elevations at that point when 
 this line was located ? 
 
 A. At which point ? 
 
 Q. At the point of crossing by your route ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you take any elevations with a view of deter- 
 mining at what point an over-head crossing could be 
 made ? 
 
 A. The same elevations taken for one would answer 
 for the other, at that point. 
 
 Q. Did you take any to determme that 5 
 
 A. We took elevations for both. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. In connection with the esti- 
 mates, what experience have you had in bridge building ? 
 
 A. In the construction of bi-idges, I have built a few. 
 
 Q. Iron bridges ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; no iron bridges. 
 
 Q, Iron trestle-work ? 
 
570 
 
 2276 A. Not to construct it, no, sir ; that is a matter that 
 is out of the province of engineers at this present day. 
 
 Q. How many over-head crossings have you laid out 
 yourselves in the city of Buffalo, of railroads ? 
 
 A. We have laid out three, I belie se. 
 
 Q. Three or four, which ? 
 
 A. Oh, yes, four ; I will change that. 
 
 Q. What reasons suggested themselves to you to put 
 over-head crossings at those places, that did not erxist for 
 2377 an over-head crossing of the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. The crossing of the main line of the New York, 
 Lake Erie and Western at the intersection of William 
 street and their road, was favored in one respect by the 
 natural position of the country, the natural position of 
 the ground. 
 
 Q. Is it not a perfectlv level country ali along there? 
 
 A. No, sir, it is not ; one approach to that crossing 
 is favored by the natural position of the ground, and in 
 ZZm c-ogging the New York Central, their main line, our 
 grade whs materially decreased by making such crossing. 
 The grade of crossing the Niagara Falls branch of the 
 Erie Railway, to keep it within our limits of thirty feet, 
 caused the manner of the crossing at that point in the 
 manner in which we have filed it, tlie crossing of the 
 Niagara Falls branch of the New York Central was in- 
 duced partly by their standing cars on the sidings, on a 
 „„^„ siding that they have at that place; standing them there 
 almost continuously. That was a portion, one item en- 
 tering into the reason of the crossing. 
 
 Q. The main item ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the main item ? 
 A. We thought it advisable to cross over-head. 
 Q. Why did you think it advisable to cross over-head 
 at that point ? 
 
Barrian.J 571 
 
 A. The company considered it so; I was instructed 3380 
 to lay it out as such. 
 
 Q. The one you can remember is that on one of their 
 side-tracks thej' stand cars a good deal? 
 
 A. They do stand cars on that side-track almost 
 continually. 
 
 Q. Therefore, to obviate interfering with that side- 
 track, an over-head crossing was a desirable thing? 
 
 A. -I said that that entered into it a little ; the main 
 reason was that the directions of the company were to 3381 
 cross at that point over-head. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us if tliose are accurate transcripts 
 of your profile at all these points of crossing ? (Presents 
 copy of profile to witness.) 
 
 A. I can only do it by comparison. 
 
 Q. Will you say that that is a correct tracing of your 
 profile at those crossings ? 
 
 A. I won't say it is correct unless I examine it and 
 compare it ; I can't tell without an examination. 
 
 Re-direct examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. At how many places do you come in contact with 
 the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. We come in contact with it with our filed line in 
 two points. 
 
 Q. What two points? 
 
 A. One south of the crossina; of the Buffalo Creek 
 and Michigan Southern, and the other at the point in 
 question. 
 
 Q. Now, then, in order to connect with them at the 
 other point of contact, you would have to cross the 
 BuflPalo, Pittsburgh and Western Line that is projected, 
 and you would have to pass the Buffalo and Southwest- 
 ern tracks ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And there is a proceeding pending ; instituted by 
 
572 
 
 3284 the New York, Lake Erie and Western, as lessees of the 
 Buffalo and Southwestern, to make the Lackawanna 
 cross over-head there, is there not ? 
 
 A. So T understand it. 
 
 Q. So that here is a proceeding pending at every 
 point of contact with the Lake Shore road to throw you 
 over-head ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. This Lackawanna road, the New York, Lacka- 
 
 3285 wanna and Western extends from Buffalo to Bingham- 
 ton? 
 
 A. I believe so. 
 
 Q. And their connects with what ? 
 
 A. The Delaware, Lackawanna and Western. 
 
 Q. And you thereby' form, it is hoped, a trunk line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is the expectation ? 
 
 A. That is the intention of the companv. 
 ooafi . 
 
 Q. Between Butfalo and the sea-board, the sea-board 
 
 and the lakes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railroad 
 Company extends trom Chicago to Buffalo ? 
 
 A. I believe so. 
 
 Q. And is the Western Trunk Line from this point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 2287 *^' '"^^ ^^^ know the situation of the Delaware and 
 Hudson Railroad from Albany north? 
 
 A. I know it as far north as Saratoga. 
 
 Q. And are you acquainted with its location in 
 Albany ? 
 
 A. Somewhat. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many times it is crossed by the 
 New York Central at grade ? 
 
 A. I don't know how many times; as I remember it 
 now, they cross the tracks of the New York Central out 
 
Barrian.J 573 
 
 quite a number of times ; crossing the tracks leading to 3288 
 their freight-house. 
 
 Q. Are crossed by the Delaware and Hudson Rail- 
 road Company, are they not ? 
 
 A. I don't know that all of them are, I know quite a 
 number of them are. 
 
 Q. How much of a grade is involved by your cross- 
 ing of the New York Central tracks below the Interna- 
 tional Bridge? 
 
 A. Thirty feet to the mile is our maximum grade. 2289 
 
 Q. And you make that crossing without interfering 
 with that grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan : Q. This estimate that you have 
 made is on the basis of making your crossing on an em- 
 bankment, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On which profile do you figure it, upon the one 
 attached to the map or upon the substituted one ? 
 
 A. On the map that was served on us. 
 
 Q. You made no estimate upon the other one, did 
 you? 
 
 A. None whatever. 
 
 Q. In your summary here I see you make one item 
 marked "excavation," you use that word interchangeably 
 with embankment, do you? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^^g^ 
 
 Q. You figure here forty cents per yard for excava- 
 tion? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How do you make up that forty cents ? 
 
 A. We make it up by the actual excavation, and 
 carrying material from a point perhaps some thirty miles 
 distant, something of that kind. 
 
 Q. How much do you figure for loading? 
 
 A. That is about eight cents a yard ; no, I am wrong 
 
574 
 
 2292 about that, I cau'tgive those items now ; I have the detail, 
 and if you wish to cross-exainiue me on them, I will 
 present them ; this is a sudamary of the entire matter. 
 
 Q. I simply wanted to get at it with a view of ana- 
 lyzing this estimate during the interim, this is your esti- 
 mate? 
 
 A. Tliat is my estimate, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You made the computations ? 
 
 A. I made the computations. 
 
 2293 Q. Can't you tell how much yon figure for dumping ? 
 A. I can't tell now because this estimate was pre- 
 pared immediately after receiving jour service, and since 
 then I have done considerable work, and it has escaped 
 my memory. 
 
 Q. What is the usual price allowed for dumpino? 
 
 A. It is not usually figured that way, it is usually 
 figured for so much material delivered, taken up and put 
 in position. 
 
 Q. But in order to make up the sum to be paid to 
 get it in position you have to take all these elements 
 into consideration, do you not ? 
 
 A. Not necessarily, not in letting work, it is a matter 
 of so much per yard for material delivered fi'om a certaiu 
 point in the work, that is the usual way of accepting a 
 bid. 
 
 Q. You figure this to be hauled a distance of thirty 
 
 , ^ miles, do you ? 
 2295 •' 
 
 A. Something of the kind, it may be forty, I won't 
 
 say that it is thirty. 
 
 Q. You figure this timber at forty-five dollars per 
 thousand ? 
 
 A. In the structure complete. 
 
 Q. What kind of timber is that ^ 
 
 A. That is, I think, white pine, I am not positive now. 
 
 Q. What sum do you allow in that estimate for the 
 pine, and how much for the framing? 
 
Barrian.] 575 
 
 A. I say that is the price of timber in the trestle 3396 
 complete ; this is supposed to be a pile trestle, there is 
 no framing except the framing of the cap or the mortis- 
 ing and tenanting of the cap and pile. 
 
 Q. How much do you allow for that in tliis estimate ? 
 
 A. That is the figure, forty-five dollars is the figure 
 that I have taken from work that we have let on the 
 present line of the same character. 
 
 Q. I understand you that it is solely for piling pur- 
 poses, this timber ? 3297 
 
 A. No, 'sir, not entirely. 
 
 Q. Then is it for trestles to be filled up? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For how many tracks have you computed this? 
 
 A. Double track. 
 
 Q. Is it necessary to have a doable trestle in order 
 to do this filling? 
 
 A. It is necessary to operate our road. 
 
 Q. No, but I mean for the purpose of erecting this ""^ 
 embankment is it necessary to have a double trestle, can 
 you not erect one trestle and then fill in from there ? 
 
 A. We can't in this case. 
 
 Q. Why not ? 
 
 A. Because we propose to operate our road and do 
 the filling in the meantime, if this over-head crossing is 
 imposed upon us we propose to operate it if we can. 
 
 Q. If this is to be filled up would you use white pine .,,-,„„ 
 for the purpose of those temporary trestles ? 
 
 A. I could. 
 
 Q. Would you? 
 
 A. I have. 
 
 Q. Would you in this instance ? 
 
 A. Well, I will see what I have used, I think it is 
 white pine for stringers. 
 
 Q. Would not hemlock do as well? 
 
 A. Hemlock can be used. 
 
576 
 
 SoOO Q. That would be worth about eight dollars a thou- 
 sand? 
 
 A. I don't know the price of hemlock. 
 
 Q. If it can be purchased for eight dollars a thou- 
 sand, you would use it in preference to white pine for 
 this purpose ? 
 
 A. No, sir, not for a through line for a road, and a 
 trestle that was expected to stand for some j'ears I would 
 not. 
 '■*^'^^ Q. But yoii propose this to be a trestle to be filled in ? 
 
 A. Filled in while we are operating our road at any 
 time. 
 
 Q. Then you have not only computed here for a tres- 
 tle but an embankment ? 
 
 A. An embankment necessitated to have a permanent 
 trestle, the natural life of a trestle would be perhaps 
 seven or eight years, then it is to be filled. 
 
 Q. 1 ask you if you do not in this computation com- 
 ^ pnte for a trestle and an embankment ? 
 
 A. Why, certainly. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Would the building of a 
 trestle cheapen the cost of an embankment, the subse- 
 quent tilling, any ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it would reduce the price, but that price 
 has been placed upon it with a view of the trestle being 
 there. 
 2303 ^-^ counsel, resuming : Q. You say then, that this 
 filling of this embankment would probably not be per- 
 fected for seven or eight j'ears ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I do not; it might be perfected earlier; 
 I said it would be filled in at the leisure of the company. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say at least extending over a 
 period of seven or eight years ? 
 
 A. I said the natural life of a trestle was seven or 
 eight years. 
 
 Q. You didn't make any estimate on an iron trestle? 
 
Barrian.] 577 
 
 A. No, sir, I made no estimate on an iron trestle. 3304 
 
 Q. You include in this the excavation and masonry 
 on line B ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If that line is abandoned, that item of $66,745 
 might be taken out ? 
 
 A. It might be taken out ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If line A is abandoned and line B put through, 
 how much would you take out of this estimate ? 
 
 A. About sixty-six thousand, something of--the kind ; if ^305 
 line B'\i, there and line A abandoned, then there would 
 be a saving of about four hundred and twent_y thousand 
 dollars. 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. And the road would stop way 
 down by the Abbott road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; in speaking of lines yl and B I speak 
 in reference to the portions of lines A and B placed on 
 record here by the petitioners' map. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan, resuming: Q. If line A between ^^°^ 
 your main line and the Lake Shore Eailway track is 
 abandoned, how much will that reduce your estimate ? 
 
 A. I don't know, I cannot say what that would re- 
 duce it ; I misunderstood the question. 
 
 Q. Can you tell by looking at your estimate ? 
 
 A. No, sir, it is made up as a whole with reference 
 to your proposed changes. 
 
 Q. And if line A is put through and line B is 0097 
 abandoned, then that reduces it about sixty-six thousand 
 dollars ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that reduces it about sixty-six thousand 
 dollars. 
 
 Q. What kind of piling do you use — timber — -what 
 material ? 
 
 A. Spruce, I believe. 
 
 Q, What length ? 
 
 A. Oh, that depends entirely upon the height of the 
 
578 
 
 3308 proposed sub-grade line at diflFerent points along the 
 line. 
 
 Q. But you had that in jour mind — at what length 
 do you figure them ? 
 
 A. I figure them exactly as they are needed in the 
 construction; you cannot take an average length in a 
 line of broken grade like this. 
 
 Q. Do you make a pile trestle, or a frame trestle ? 
 
 A. A pile trestle. 
 2309 By Com. Clark : Q. You figure it according to their 
 profile ? 
 
 A. In accordance with their profile. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. How much penetration of 
 pile into the ground did you anticipate would be neces- 
 sary ? 
 
 A. Twelve feet, I believe. 
 
 James Aechabald, sworn for the respondent, and 
 examined by Mr. Locke, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Where do you reside ? 
 
 A. Scranton, Penn. 
 
 Q. What is your business? 
 
 A. I am a civil engineer. 
 
 Q. How long have you been a civil engineer ? 
 
 A. Twenty-one or two years. 
 
 Q. Where were you educated ? 
 2311 A. Union College. 
 
 Q. Give us a little iuformatiou in regard to your ex- 
 perience as an engineer ? 
 
 A. I have been connected with the Delaware, Lack- 
 awanna and Western and its interests for twenty-one 
 years. 
 
 Q. What important works have you had to do with 
 in connection with that company ? 
 
 A. Built their branches and improvements around 
 Hoboken, etc. 
 
Archabald.J 579 
 
 Q. Have you had anj'thing to do with the construe- 2312 
 tion of their tunnel ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have charge of a portion of that work? 
 
 A. I had charge of all of it, sir; we spent nearly 
 three millions of dollars for four or five miles of road. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation at present? 
 
 A. Chief engineer of the Lackawanna and Western 
 Road. 
 
 Q. That company is engaged in building a road 2313 
 from Binghamton to Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. With what does it connect at Binghamton ? 
 
 A. Delaware, Lackawanna and Western road. 
 
 Q. How far has your work progressed now? 
 
 A. We have got track laid about ten miles from 
 Binghamton, a double track — eight miles from Bing- 
 hamton. 
 
 Q. How far have you done grading? 
 
 A. In spots all the way to Buffalo ; the Susquehanna 
 division is nearly graded. 
 
 Q. Where does the Susquehanna division extend to ? 
 
 A. From Bingliamton to about seven miles east of 
 Elmira. 
 
 Q. What distance is that? 
 
 A. It is about forty-nine miles and something. 
 
 Q. Did you have anything to do with the location of i.^ik 
 your route in Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you go upon tliese premises at Sandusky 
 street before the location of the line?. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What examinations did you make as to the point 
 were you could cross the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. I examined the ground very closely. 
 
 Q. What point did you select ? 
 
580 
 
 2316 A. The point where our located line crosses the point. 
 Q. Why did you locate it there ? 
 
 A. It interfered least with the business of the Erie 
 and Lake Shore than any point I could iind. 
 
 Q. As well as your own expected business ? 
 
 A. As well as our own expected business. 
 
 Q. Did you learn about the stoppage of trains there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir J I observed that and made inquiries rel- 
 ative to it. 
 
 2317 Q. Did that have anything to do M'ith your decision ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; it was a very important point with me. 
 Q. How much is the Lake Shore rail elevated above 
 
 the surface of the surrounding laud f 
 
 A. I should think eight or ten feet. 
 
 Q. You have examined the map served with the 
 petition in these proceedings ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Showing the proposed alteration of your line? 
 ^^^^ A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had any experience as engineer of the 
 Lackawanna, in the practical operation of a railroad? 
 
 A. Only from observation. 
 
 Q. You don't mean thrtyou have taken and run a 
 train, but you have been in constant connection with the 
 men operating the road as any man connected with the 
 railroad, for a good many years ? 
 
 2319 ^- 7^^'^'" , 
 
 Q. 1 suppose there are objections to grade-crossings ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are these objections insuperable ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had grade-crossings upon the Delaware, 
 
 Lackawanna and Western ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many? 
 
 A. We have five or six. 
 
Archabald.] 581 
 
 Q. Have you any crossings through a yard ? 2320 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Describe it ? 
 
 A. With the Hudson, a connecting road, connecting 
 with the Pennsylvania road at Jersey city, a yard of six 
 tracks, when we crossed it we ran our double track 
 through that twice, making two double-track crossings 
 probably about two hundred and fifty to three hundred 
 feet apart. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. Where is that ? 2331 
 
 A. At the Bergen junction, very near the mouth of 
 the Erie tunnel, just south of the Erie tunnel, connect- 
 ing the Mt. Clair road and the Midland Railroad of New 
 Jersey, and the Pennsylvania road. 
 
 Q. Does all your Dnlaware, Lackawanna and West- 
 ei'n coal go across that crossing? 
 
 A. No, sir ; but all going to tide-water goes over that 
 crossing. 
 
 Q. Do your passenger trains go over it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many ? 
 
 A. Fifty-six Morris and Essex trains, and twenty of 
 the Midland Eailroad of New Jersey, according to the 
 time card now. 
 
 Q. Will you state the reason if there be any, why in 
 your judgment one of the lines of this crossing over 
 the Lake Shore is better than the other, which of the 
 crossings over the Lake Shore is the better? 
 
 A. The straight line, the located line. 
 
 Q. Give your reasons why it is preferable to the 
 other ? 
 
 A. It is perfectly straight and it is nearer the line 
 of the Erie crossing ; we have the Leigh Valley and 
 Pennsylvania and New York Railroad which crosses 
 the L. & B. Railroad, at Fittston, riglit in the lower 
 end of the Pittston yard. 
 
582 
 
 233i Q. Are these roads in active operation ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; they do a large bnsiness both in coal 
 and freight. 
 
 Q. What crossing is that ? 
 
 A. The Pennsylvania and New York Railroad Co. ; 
 the Lehigh Valley crossing the D., L. & W., right at 
 Pittston station. 
 
 Q. In the yards? 
 
 A. At the south end of the L. and B. yard, and at 
 2325 the south end of the other road, the yard end at this 
 junction. 
 
 Q. Is Pittston in Pennsylvania? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has the proposed route in this case, in your judg- 
 ment, any advantages over the altered route, provided 
 both were to be graded crossings ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I see none. 
 
 Q. Has the altered route any advantages over the 
 /.o,(i pi-oposed route, if both were to be over-head crossings? 
 
 A. I see none. 
 
 Q. State whether, in your judgment, changes could 
 be made in the tracks down there which would accommo- 
 date the business of both companies ? 
 
 A. I see necessity of only very small — I don't think 
 there is any necessity of much changes to accommodate 
 the business of both roads. 
 
 Q. Any changes that were necessary could be made ? 
 
 A. They would be small, changing switches in the 
 crossing. 
 
 Q. You have heard the testimony in regard to the 
 use of those roads ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Would it be possible for the Lackawanna Road 
 to make any connection, freight or passenger connection, 
 witli the Lake Shore Road at this point, provided it were 
 compelled to make an over-head crossing? 
 
Arehabald.] 583 
 
 A. It is possible, but not nearly as feasible. 3328 
 
 By Mr. MeAlpiue: Q. It is only possible by building 
 an independent track for that purpose ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Locke, resuming : Q. Is it possible to make 
 the connection with the road, provided a grade-crossing 
 is agreed upon ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir : there is no use of making any track for 
 passenger business at this point; just as the tracks are is 
 possible for passenger business. 2339 
 
 Q. I suppose if you are going to send two cars, you 
 would want to switch ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; passengers can change cars there with- 
 out any change of tracks. 
 
 Q. Could you put a T' in there so as to afford an 
 opportunity to change cars ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Passenger cars ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^^^^ 
 
 Q. Which is the better route to operate, everything 
 being considered, a grade-crossing there as you have 
 made out the line, or a road with an over-crossing, in- 
 cluding the desirability of connection with the Lake 
 Shore and considering the elevation ? 
 
 A. I see no difficulty with operating this road with a 
 grade-crossing. 
 
 Q. Have you examined the Buftalo, New York and 
 Philadelphia crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does this present any more serious objection than 
 that crossing, in your judgment ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are j'ou acquainted with the crossings at Eliza- 
 beth ? 
 
 A. I am, sir. 
 
 Q. Elizabeth, New Jersey ? 
 
584 
 
 3332 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Describe those crossings to the commissioners ? 
 
 A. All the passenger busiiies, and a large part of the 
 freight business, between New York and Philadelphia, 
 and New York and west, passes over that crossing, and 
 the Jersey Central's business passes over that crossing ; 
 sixty-six trains a day of the New Jersey Central passes 
 over that ; all the New Jersey Central's coal going to 
 tide- water passes that crossing, and all the freight to New 
 
 3333 York that passes Newark passes that. 
 
 Q. Is that a heav}' traflSc ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; one of the heaviest in the country. 
 
 Q. And still that grade-crossing is operated ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At what angle is that grade-crossing? 
 
 A. I shonld think it was about at an angle of sixty 
 degrees. 
 
 Q. Which is the better crossing, everything being 
 ■233-1: considered, a crossing at a right angle or at an acute 
 angle ? 
 
 A. A right-angle crossing ? 
 
 Q. Why so ? 
 
 A. The train passes over it so much more quickly. 
 
 Q. It much more than counterbalances the other 
 difficulties ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, the blows to rolling-stock. 
 
 Q. Which woidd be the worse crossing, one located 
 "'335 • . . 
 
 like your proposed crossing, a crossing where trains al- 
 ready stop, or a crossing three miles out on the Lake 
 Shore road, thereby compelling all trains to make an 
 additional stop ? 
 
 A. They had better have the crossings together, con- 
 tiguous. 
 
 Q. Isn't a crossing where trains run slowly much 
 better than a crossing out in the country which they 
 approach at a high rate of speed ? 
 
Shipman.J 585 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 3336 
 
 Q. Isn't there much less risk of accidents ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Chamite thought that ninety per cent, of the 
 objections to grade- crossings were the dangers of coUis- 
 ions, as I understood him to say ; have you had any very 
 serious accidents on your grade-crossings on the Lacka- ' 
 wanna road ? 
 
 A. I don't recollect of any, sir. 
 
 Q. Then these grade-crossings can be operated with ^^^'^ 
 care ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So as largely to eliminate the danger ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Charles Shipman, sworn for the respondent, and ex- 
 amined by Mr. Locke, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Where do you reside ? 233g 
 
 A. At Buflalo, at present. 
 
 Q. What is your business ? 
 
 A. Civil engineer. 
 
 Q. Are you in the employ of the Buffalo and Lack- 
 awanna Road ? 
 
 A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you taken some memoranda in regai'd to 
 the time occupied by the passage of trains over the Lake 
 Shore road, at the Erie crossing ? 2339 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you take your observations there ? 
 
 A. About two days, on the fifteenth and on the nine- 
 teenth. 
 
 Q. On the fifteenth of what ? 
 
 A. July. 
 
 Q. At what time did you go upon the ground on the 
 fifteenth of July? 
 
586 
 
 3340 A. At seveu o'clock and fifteen minutes in the morn- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. How long did yon remain ? 
 
 A. Until 5.42 in the morning. 
 
 Q. Did you observe every train and car that went 
 across there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you made a graphic sketch of the opera- 
 tion at that crossing ? 
 2341 A. I liave a graphic sketch made from these observa- 
 tions. 
 
 Q. Have you examined it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And is it correct? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I will ask you further, what time did yon go 
 down there on the nineteenth ? 
 
 A. At 7.29 in the morning. 
 
 Q. How long did you remain there ? 
 
 A. I remained there until about a quarter of six 
 o'clock, I think; I cannot be positive to the minnte, but 
 it is there on the drawings. 
 
 Q. Didn't you keep track the whole of the twenty- 
 four hours on the eleventh ? 
 
 A. Somebody relieved me at night. 
 
 Q. Is this a sketch of both days ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you please explain it and tell us what it is ? 
 
 A. This is a diagram drawn by a scale, each of those 
 numbers representing two minutes. 
 
 Q. Which numbers? 
 
 A. The small divisions and the vertical division ; 
 from there to there, represents two minutes, and between 
 the dark lines represents twenty minutes of time. 
 
 Q. What tracks are represented there ? 
 
 A. Six tracks are represented there ; two tracks 
 
 2343 
 
 3343 
 
Shipraan.J 587 
 
 which are transfer tracks on the easterly side of the 2344 
 crossing ; those two tracks in bhie are those, and the 
 tracks in red are the main tracks of the Lake Shore 
 road. 
 
 Q. What do the figures at the top of the paper rep- 
 resent? 
 
 A. Those are the hour marks, and tlie small marks 
 the minute marks. 
 
 Q. What does that mark represent ? 
 
 A. The main track of the Lake Shore road. 3345 
 
 Q. What are those marks at the end of the paper ? 
 
 A. Those locate the obstructions at tlie time. 
 
 Q. The cross representing the engine? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The circle, the engine and tender? 
 
 A. The engine and freight cars. 
 
 Q. The triangle, the passenger trains ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Take it on the main passenger track of the Lake ^^^^ 
 Shore, number four — you reached there at 7.15 in the 
 morning, you say ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you state how long before anything went 
 over that crossing ? 
 
 A. Nothing went over the crossing until eight o'clock 
 and ten minutes. 
 
 Q. What crossing is this, is it the proposed crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The proposed Lackawanna crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What went over on the o^ain track of the Erie 
 from the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. That is indefinite; the notes of that line up to 
 here are mislaid, showing the character of the train. 
 
 Q. Something crossed over ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
588 
 
 S348 Q- How long was it on that point of crossing ? 
 
 A. About fifteen seconds. 
 
 Q. How much time intervened before anything else 
 was on that point of crossing? 
 
 A. Three minutes and forty-five seconds. 
 
 Q. Then something was on how long ? 
 
 A. For a minute. 
 
 Q. Then how mucli time intervened before anything 
 else was on ? 
 2349 A Twenty-three minutes. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan : Q. At what hour was that, the 
 last item ? 
 
 A. That was eight o'clock and forty-one minutes. 
 
 Q. How long was it occupied then ? 
 
 A. Two minutes. 
 
 Q. By trains on that track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is that on number one? 
 2350 
 
 A. Freight cars were standing there. 
 
 Q,. How long did they remain there — at what time 
 in the morning? 
 
 A. They were put there at 8.15. 
 
 Q. Was the Lackawanna crossing the point of obser- 
 vation ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The whole length of it ? 
 q„ A. The whole length of the crossing. 
 
 Q. What crossing ? 
 
 A. The crossing of the proposed line of the Lacka- 
 wanna across these six tracks. 
 
 Q. Take track number one, you say some cars were 
 placed there at 7.15 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, they were standing there when I got 
 there. 
 
 Q. You don't know how long they had been stand- 
 ing? 
 
Shipinan.J 589 
 
 A. No, sir. 2352 
 
 Q. How long did they remain there ? 
 
 A. Until eight o'clock and seven minutes. 
 
 Q. Then they were removed ? 
 
 A. Then they were removed. 
 
 Q. How long before anything else was on that track, 
 number one ? 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. Does it show how long it was 
 occupied in taking the cars off? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 2353 
 
 By Mr. Locke, resuming : Q. How long before any- 
 thing else went over? 
 
 A. Ten minutes. 
 
 Q. Then an engine passed? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long a time intervened before anything else 
 passed the track number one? 
 
 A. Nothing passed track number one until eleven 
 o'clock and eleven minutes. 
 
 Q. There was about three hours on that track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was simply an engine and freight ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long did it occupy the crossing? 
 
 A. About fifteen seconds. 
 
 Q. When was the next obstruction on track number 
 
 «""• 2355 
 
 A. The next obstruction was three o'clock and forty- 
 six minutes. 
 
 Q. How long did that remain there, and what was it ? 
 
 A. That remained there until four o'clock and seven- 
 teen minutes. 
 
 Q. What did it consist of? 
 
 A. Freight trains standing still between these two 
 times. 
 
 Q. How long a time was it? 
 
590 
 
 2356 A. It was there until four o'clock and seventeen 
 minutes. 
 
 Q. Then there was nothing more so long as you staid 
 that day ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Take track number two, you found a train stand- 
 ing on number two when you got there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Across the point of proposed crossing? 
 
 2357 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did it consist of? 
 
 A. Freight cars detached. 
 
 Q. How long did it remain there? 
 
 A. It remained there until ten o'clock and thirty-six 
 minutes. 
 
 Q. Then how much time intervened before anything 
 else was there? 
 
 A. Seventeen minutes. 
 ^'^^^ Q. What was tliere then ? 
 
 A. Then there was an engine. 
 
 Q. Then how long a time intervened befoi'e anything 
 else was there? 
 
 A. Three minutes. 
 
 Q. What passed then ? 
 
 A. A freight train with engine attached. 
 
 Q. How long did that take ? 
 
 A. One minute. 
 
 Q. What came next ? 
 
 A. A freight train with engine attached. 
 
 Q. At what interval ? 
 
 A. Three minutes. 
 
 Q.' How long did that train take ? 
 
 A. Two minutes. 
 
 Q. When was the next thing that passed track num- 
 ber two ? 
 
 2359 
 
Shipman.] 591 
 
 A. The next thing passed at one o'clock and thirty- 3360 
 four minutes. 
 
 Q. There was nearly two hours there and then a 
 train was put on there and left standing there? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long? 
 
 A. It was standing there until two o'clock and fiftj"^- 
 nine minutes. 
 
 Q. In the same way that you have explained that, 
 the diagram shows the rest of it, the same as you have 3361 
 explained that? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Cora. McAlpine : Q. For how much distance, 
 enough of the length of the road to cover a double track ? 
 
 A. To cover the road enough to block the double 
 track ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, they did, sir. 
 
 . . 2S62 
 
 By Mr. McMillan : Q. The point of crossing was a 
 
 point one hundred feet in width, was it a single point on 
 
 the track ? 
 
 A. It was the width of the double track of the road, 
 obstructing the two tracks. 
 
 Q. About twenty feet ? 
 
 A. About thirty feet. 
 
 Q. By Mr. Locke, resuming : Q. Have you made a 
 summarized statement of this first diagram of yours? oqcq 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Locke : I offer this in evidence as first exhibit 
 received and marked "Respondent's Ex. No. 20," by the 
 stenographer. 
 
 Q. Have you a diagram here of the transactions on 
 the 19th ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it is made in the same manner ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
592 
 
 ^3C4 Q. And upon the same scale? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So tliat the same application would apply to that 
 that you have already made? 
 
 Q. Have you aiij' summary of this made of this sec- 
 ond diagram ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Showing how much time the crossing was blocked 
 with moving trains and how much of the time it was 
 'loG5 bloclied l)y trains standing still? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the result of your compilation of this 
 thing ? 
 
 A. On the 19th, train number one was on the track 
 obstructing the crossing one hour fifteen minutes and five 
 seconds during the day wliile 1 was tliere. During the 
 hours from seven fifteen to five forty-two, number two, 
 five hours fifty-seven minutes and ten seconds. 
 "••''''' Q. What was that by? 
 
 A. That is not on this map, it is on the other. 
 
 Q. Go on ? 
 
 A. Number three, twenty-nine minutes and fifty- 
 eight seconds ; number four, thirty-nine minutes and 
 fifty seconds. 
 
 Q. Number five ? 
 
 A. Five hours and fifty-eight minutes. 
 oof;7 Q- Number six? 
 
 A. Two hours three minutes and thirty-four seconds. 
 
 Q. Number seven ? 
 
 A. I have no number seven. 
 
 Q. Have you made a summary of the second paper 
 that you now produce ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is, of transactions on the 19th ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long was number one blocked that day? 
 
Shipman.J 593 
 
 A. Five hours forty-seven tniimtes and forty-seven 3368 
 seconds. 
 
 Q. By what? 
 
 A. By a freight train standing there from seven 
 o'clock and thirty-eight minntes to ten o'clock and twen- 
 ty-eight minutes, by another freight train standing there 
 from twelve o'clock and forty-seven minutes and one- 
 half to two o'clock and eighteen minutes. 
 
 Q. And so on ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; and soon. 3369 
 
 Q. How long was number two blocked that day ? 
 
 A. Blocked all day. 
 
 Q. By what ? 
 
 A. By a train that stood entirely across the crossing 
 in the morning, and then by the hind car of part of the 
 train that was left in the afternoon ; it was left so it 
 would obstruct the crossing ; it was far enough on so as 
 to prevent a train from crossing, all day. 
 
 Q. That is, just one car? ^370 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If the Lackawanna I'oad had been built at that 
 time, it would have prevented it from crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Except by leaving that car there, that crossing 
 was not used on number two all day long? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Number three, how lona; was that occupied ? 
 
 • . 3371 
 
 A. Number three was occupied one hour thirty min- 
 utes and eleven seconds. 
 
 Q. Number four ? 
 
 A. One hour fifteen minutes and ten seconds. Num- 
 ber live, one hour ten minutes and fifteen seconds. 
 
 Q. Number six? 
 
 A. Fifty minutes and eleven seconds. 
 
 Q. What was that on number five? 
 
 A. That was a freight car left standing on the track. 
 
594 
 
 2372 Q. How long was that left there that day ? 
 
 A. That was left there thirty-five minutes and 
 three-quarters. 
 
 Q. Was left standing there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. "You are familiar with the operation of railroads? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there any trouble when these trains were left 
 standing there such a long time, would there have been 
 
 2373 any trouble in cutting them in two and allowing a train 
 to cross? 
 
 A. Nothing but to draw the pin, that is all, to cut 
 them loose. 
 
 Q. How long would it have taken? 
 
 A. I should not think over a minute, sir. 
 
 Q. How much of the time, out of the time that you 
 were there, was the crossing actually blocked ? 
 
 A. It was blocked — 
 
 2374 
 
 Q. Eliminating the standing train ? 
 
 A. I have got it in together, twenty-five per cent, on 
 the 15th, and twenty-six per cent, on the 16th. 
 
 Q. Twenty-five per cent, of the time ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was counting it as an obstruction, these 
 standing trains?. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 2375 Cross examination, by Mr. Milbnrn : 
 
 Q. These tracks were occupied between — what does 
 that column show ? 
 
 A. The time the train occupied the crossing. 
 
 Q. Between what hours? 
 
 A. Between the hours of seven twenty-nine in the 
 morning and five forty-two the next morning. 
 
 Q. How long was that crossing occupied out of 
 the twenty-four hours? 
 
Shiptnan x] 595 
 
 A. We didn't take it for twenty-four hours, we 2376 
 took it for nineteen liours and thirty-four minutes. 
 
 Q. What was the total of the blocking of those 
 tracks during that tinie? 
 
 A. It was occupied at two different times by the 
 trains — 
 
 Q. How long was it occupied out of twenty-four 
 hours? 
 
 A. For the whole six tracks it was thirty hours, fifty- 
 two minutes and thirty seconds. 2377 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. Were there other gentlemen down 
 there, taking tlie time too, on the 19th ? 
 
 A. I didn't notice them. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan : Q. Do you take into account in 
 your estimate, any delays to trains in the yard here, that 
 were waiting to cross ; .does 3'our statement show any- 
 thing of that sort ; does your statement show any delays 
 by reason of trains waiting in the yard to yet out ? 
 
 A. My statement does not cover anything but trains ^^'° 
 that cross the track at that point. 
 
 Q. Does it show, in any way, any delays incident to 
 trains waiting in the ja.rd for the purpose of getting the 
 target to cross out on the Erie and Lake Shore ? it does 
 not show that, does it ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Take your diagram for the 15th, at what hour 
 
 did you begin on the 15th ? 
 
 . 3379 
 
 A. Seven o'clock and fifteen minutes. 
 
 Q. From that time, from seven o'clock and fifteen min- 
 utes, to eight o'clock and fifteen minutes, how many loco- 
 motives crossed that point, as shown on your diagram ? 
 
 A. I didn't stay there till eight o'clock and fifteen 
 minutes. 
 
 Q. During these two hours, tell us how many loco- 
 motives would pass that point — locomotives including 
 trains ? 
 
596 
 
 2380 A. I believe I made a statement that we mislaid the 
 notes of the character of the trains up to this point. 
 
 Q. Give us the number of obstructions that pass back 
 and fourth from seven fifteen to eight fifteen on all the 
 tracks, on the Lake Shore tracks ? 
 
 A. There were two obstructions on the main line. 
 
 Q. Give us the whole, in one cross, all the Lake 
 Shore track? 
 
 A. There is eight without the freight. 
 
 2381 Q. Eight moving ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. During that hour ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is all you make ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. During the next hour, from eight-fifteen to nine- 
 fifteen, how many do you make ? 
 
 A. Tliere is only three on the Lake Shore for that 
 
 2382 {jj)-,g . \ misunderstood you, I thought you meant on all 
 the tracks that were moving. 
 
 Q. During the next hour, then, from eight-fifteen to 
 nine-fifteen, how many were there on the Lake Shore 
 track ? 
 
 A. There were six. 
 
 Q. Take the next hou^r, from nine-fifteen to ten fif- 
 
 2383 
 
 teen ? 
 
 A. Eight. 
 
 Q. From ten-fifteen to eleven-fifteen ? 
 
 A. Nine. 
 
 Q. The next hour? 
 
 A. There were four ; there was a part of the train 
 that ran over into the next hour a minute; that is counted 
 in on the next hour. 
 
 Q. The next hour ? 
 
 A. There is four on the next hour, counting that one 
 that run over from the last. 
 
Shipman x] 597 
 
 Q. One-fifteen to two-fifteen ? 2384 
 
 A. There are four there . 
 
 Q. Two-fifteen to three-fifteen ? 
 
 A. Six. 
 
 Q. Three fifteen to four-fifteen ? 
 
 A. Seven. 
 
 Q. Four-fifteen to five-fifteen ? 
 
 A. Seven on that hour. 
 
 Q. You didn't take any account as to the time the 
 target-here was occupied, did you ; your statement didn't 2385 
 show anything about the time of the target at the Erie 
 crossing, and the Lalce Shore, was occnpied, was it ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nor does it show the length of time it would 
 tajje the train that got the target here, that is, westerly 
 of the crossing, until it crossed the point where you took 
 the observation ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. If a train had the target at a point westerly of 
 the Lake Shore crossing that would amount to an ob- 
 struction of this track, until that train had passed across 
 that point, for instance, here is a Lake Shore train in 
 the yard tiiat whistles for the target, the target is given 
 to him, there is a delay, and nothing could cross on the 
 Lackawanna from the time it started from the yard until 
 it crossed over; the target is shut against the other com- 
 pany all the time, from the time it gets into the yard 
 
 .... , , n 2o87 
 
 until it 18 over the track I 
 
 A. My figures don't include that. 
 
 Q. And that applies to all those tracks ? 
 
 A. I suppose so, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did it take into account any delays by reason of 
 trains waiting in the yard to get the target ? 
 
 A. No, sir, it does not. 
 
 Q. Nor does it take into account the time that the 
 
598 
 
 2388 target was set for passenger trains that were due from 
 the west? 
 
 A. It merely took in the time of crossing. 
 
 Q. If the target were set for a Lake Shore train 
 that was dne, your crossing would be blocked at that 
 time ; if the target were set for a passenger train on the 
 Lake Shore road coming in here, that was dne, your 
 track would be blocked at that time ? 
 
 A. It would depend somewhat upon the arrangement 
 
 2389 between the companies as to the signal. 
 
 Q. If it were set for another train you would not 
 have it? 
 
 A. No, 1 suppose not. 
 
 Re-direct examination^ by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Have you set poles out there recently, showing 
 the grade of the proposed crossing according to the pro- 
 tile of the altered line ? 
 
 2390 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are they there visible now ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. For what distance ? 
 
 A. They extend from Alabama street to station 219. 
 Q. What distance apart? 
 
 A. Various distances, I can give you the stations 
 there. 
 
 Q. Where there is a change of grade, or anything of 
 
 2391 that sort ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Marking the prominent points on the altered line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Mr. Locke : I offer in evidence, the second graphic 
 sketch referred to by the witness, received and marked 
 Eespondent's "Exhibit 21." 
 
Box.J 599 
 
 Henry W. Box, sworn for the respondent, and ex- 2393 
 amined by Mr. Locke, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Yon reside in the city of Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, and have since 1860. 
 
 Q. You are an attorney and counselor at law? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you own lot 181 on Sandusky street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you examined the map filed by the New 
 York, Lackawanna and Western Railway in the clerk's ^^393 
 office, on the nineteenth of May, 1881 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The route as laid down o-n that map afi'ects this 
 property ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much land is there in that lot, about? 
 
 A. Three acres and sixty-one hundredths. 
 
 Q. Extending from Sandusky street where ? 
 
 A. Half-way to the Abbott road. ^^^* 
 
 Q. Did you represent any other property in that 
 locality ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What else? 
 
 A. One hundred and eighty-two. 
 
 Q. Owned by Mr. Savage ? 
 
 A. William Savage. (Counsel presents witness peti- 
 tioners' map No. " 2.") 
 
 Q. There is the profile of the Lackawanna route as 
 proposed at grade, substantially ; here is the proposed 
 altered route of the Lackawanna road, showing a grade 
 of about nineteen feet, I thiuk, through your property ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you are acquainted with real estate in the 
 city of Buffalo? 
 
 A. I am more especially acquainted with it in the 
 thirteenth ward ; these lots are in the thirteenth ward. 
 
600 
 
 2390 Q. How will that proposed alteration of the route, 
 including the proposed alteration in the grade, affect 
 your property ? 
 
 A. Well, T think it will render the balance, not taken 
 by the railroad, substantially worthless. 
 
 Q. How, in your judgment, will it affect the other 
 property similarly situated between the Lake Shore, say, 
 and the Buffalo Creek Railroad ? 
 
 Objected to by Mr. McMillan, on the ground that these 
 -307 people who would be affected having been made parties 
 not appearing in court, this question is not up before 
 this commission. Evidence received and exception taken 
 by the petitioners' respective counsel. Question read by 
 the stenographer. 
 
 A. I cannot answer that very intelligently. 
 
 Q. Assume that the grade is continued some sixteen 
 feet high above the surface of the land, from sixteen to 
 twenty feet ? 
 
 A. Of course it must affect it injuriously, but it de- 
 pends somewhat upon the angle at which they cross the 
 piece of property ; take for instance, lot eighty-one, and 
 they go from corner to corner, leaving some land in here. 
 
 Q. In the corner on the south and the corner on the 
 north? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; leaving an embankment twenty feet; 
 why, this cannot be used for yards. 
 ., Q. That is the corners ? 
 
 A. No, nor for any other legitimate purpose that I 
 can think of. 
 
 Q. You know the situation of lot 17S which I own 
 called " Red Jacket Point " ? now, sir, you know the 
 natural grade of that land, and about how the Buffalo 
 Creek Railroad i-uns through it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, if the elevation of this road is changed some 
 
Box. J 601 
 
 twelve or fifteen feet throngh that land, how would" it -400 
 affect its value ? 
 
 A. It depends of course at what point. 
 
 Q. How does that affect lot 178 ? 
 
 A. What is the grade there? 
 
 Q. It is about twenty feet ; how does it affect that to 
 put an embankment there nineteen feet high? 
 
 A. I think it would depreciate that land three or four 
 hundred dollars an acre. 
 
 Q. Don't it cut off a portion of the lot from any ^^01 
 street front ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which is the street front ? 
 
 A. The Abbott road. 
 
 Q. What is the depth of water in that creek ? 
 
 A. Well, I don't recollect, but they have canal boats 
 up above Sir. Locke's place at the chemical works. 
 
 Q. Now, that property down there is useful for what 
 purposes 5 
 
 A. Manufacturing, railroad purposes, yards, but hav- 
 ing a creek front it is being built up quite extensively in 
 that neighborhood all along there. 
 
 Q. Now, a railroad going through there four feet 
 high would allow the adaption of the remainder of the 
 lot to business purposes in connection with the railroad, 
 such as lumber-yards, and for storage, and all that sort 
 of thing ? ^^Q3 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't that be defeated by putting a railroad 
 twenty feet up in the air, practically defeated ? 
 
 A. I should think so. 
 
 Q. You say you represent Mr. Savage's lot? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you authorized to appear here for liira the 
 same as yourself ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
602 
 
 3404 Q. His lot is affected in the same way that jours is ? 
 A. Precisely. 
 
 Q. Would you say the same thing in regard to all 
 the property f'r.om the Lake Shore road to the Buffalo 
 Kiver ; that is, so far as the grade is elevated fifteen or 
 sixteen feet above the land ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; substantially the same. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. McMillan : 
 
 3405 Q. How many acres are there in this lot that belongs 
 to Mr. Locke ? 
 
 A. I can't say. 
 
 Q. How many would you say ? 
 
 A. I should say twelve or fifteen acres. 
 
 Q. It is all a common, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. No street running into it or through it? 
 
 A. There is one laid out on the maps; Sandusky 
 street runs through a part of it. 
 
 Q. Sandusky street never has been worked and never 
 staked out ? 
 
 A. I think it has been staked out. 
 
 Q. I mean so far as it appears; this is all pasture lot, 
 is it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Its river front is what makes it more valuable 
 o^Q~ than anything else in that locality ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The northerly portion could be readily reached 
 from the Abbott road, couldn't it — this portion of the 
 lot north of the railroad track ? 
 
 A. That depends entirely on whether he can get the 
 street through, I suppose, through somebody else's land ; 
 I know I failed to get a street through on my lot from 
 north to south. 
 
Box xj 603 
 
 Q. There are parallel streets running through here ; ^^408 
 thei-e is Smith street? 
 
 A. Smith street runs north and south. 
 
 Q. A street parallel to that would run down to this 
 land, wouldn't it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; if you pnt it there. 
 
 Q. It is only a small portion of the thirteen acres 
 tliat is in any way cut off by the road ? 
 
 A. Mr. Loclve has more land than the thirteen acres. 
 
 Q. It is only a small portion of this lot tiiat he 240!i 
 pointed out to you that is cut off? 
 
 A. That is true ; from the street front. 
 
 Q. The Buffalo Creek Railroad I'uns right across that 
 lot at that point? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. That Buffalo Creek Railroad connects with every 
 other railroad coming into Buffalo ? 
 
 A. That is the theory of it. 
 
 Q. So that any lumber-yards, or any purposes for 
 which this property is adaptable could be connected with 
 every other railroad, as it is now located, by means of 
 the Buffalo Creek Railroad running through it? 
 
 A. It could be used, but who wants a lumber-yard 
 where its chief out-look is blocked up by an embank- 
 ment? 
 
 Q. Lumbermen don't care very much about an out- 
 look? 
 
 A. Yes, they do, that is only one of the uses of the 
 lumber-yard. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. The Buffalo Creek Railroad 
 connects with this Lackawaima Railroad at grade at this 
 point, don't it ? 
 
 A. I don't know, sir. 
 
 Q. These lines intersect each other close to each 
 other, close to tin's point, don't they ? 
 
 A. So they appear on the map ; that is why 1 was 
 
604 
 
 2412 wondering why yon could get an elevation of twentj' 
 feet so quick. 
 
 Q. The whole river front of this lot of Mr. Locke's 
 is left unaffected by this embankment, by this railroad, is 
 it not? 
 
 A. It is not cut off from the river ; I don't sa}' that it 
 is unaffected, however. 
 
 Q. In what manner is it affected? 
 
 A. I don't think a railroad lielps any lands unless it 
 2*il3 is for port facilities fo: business, and you go ont for in- 
 stance, on the Erie road next to Peabody's, there they 
 are about six feet high, and I think it destroys about an 
 acre of land on each side that is almost worthless, they 
 paid for it. 
 
 Q. The company' in taking this land has to pay what- 
 ever damage there is ? 
 
 A. That is a legal question. 
 
 Q. Now, you are in the employ of this Lackawanna 
 Road, tlie petitioner, are you not, Mr. Box ? 
 
 A. I have received no retainer ; Mr. Locke, however, 
 did speak to me sometime ago, and asked me to assist 
 him in the application to the council. 
 
 Q. We are all glad to do it ; I should not object to 
 being employed ; you are doing work for them? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether or not the land around 
 2^-, ^ liere in the vicinity of yours is desired or being acquired 
 " for them ? 
 
 A. I have heard of no purchases in that neighbor- 
 hood by them. 
 
 Q. Or by any other railroad ? 
 
 A. Or by any other railroad in that immediate local- 
 ity. 
 
 Q. A nineteen-foot embankment does not cut off 
 access between one part ot the lot and the other part of 
 the lot any more than a four-foot embankment, does it? 
 
Box xj 606 
 
 A. I think it does. 2416 
 
 Q.. In what way? 
 
 A. Because you can more easily cross — it is not very 
 much of a job to make a road over a four-foot rail- 
 road. 
 
 Q. A railroad company has to furnish a crossing 
 where they cut through a single piece of land ? 
 
 A. If for instance they furnished a crossing under, I 
 don't think that it adds to the beauty of a street. 
 
 Q. Passing the aesthetics of the thing, is not an under- 241? 
 crossing preferable in all ways to a crossing of a railroad 
 at grade where the grade of the railroad is four or five 
 feet ? 
 
 A. I have had no experience ; I should prefer, if I 
 was going to lay out lands to sell, I should prefer to have 
 the over-crossing. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. A ci'ossing at grade? 
 
 A. Yes. sir ; or even four feet above grade. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. Supposing that ' 
 manufactories are growing up there, and there is a great 
 deal of traffic, to and from them with horses and teams, 
 and one thing and another, you say that crossing at the 
 grade of the railroad where the embankment is four or 
 five feet, is preferable to an arched under-crossing? 
 
 A. No, I did not say that. 
 
 Q. Then you would consider, would you not, that if 
 this property is commercially used that the under-crosing 
 is the preferable crossmg ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I should. 
 
 Q. I say at a crossing, whether at grade, that would 
 be the only highway for communication between the two? 
 
 Com. Clark : You mean at street crossings ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir ; there is an idea prevalent if you have a 
 grade-crossing people can go up and down anywhere. 
 
 A. There is a law that expressly prohibits any per- 
 son walking on the property. 
 
606 
 
 3430 Q. If there is a trestle across this place, then what 
 would you say to a trestle of that kind, as compared with 
 an earthen embankment four or five feet high across 
 the lot? 
 
 A. I don't think there is very much difference be- 
 tween a trestle-work and an embankment so far as 
 aflFectiug the value of the property adjacent to it is con- 
 cerned. 
 
 Q. That is, the land is just as mucli damaged by 
 2431 these piers coming at intervals, piers of the trestle, as it 
 is by a solid embankment four or five feet higli ? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Now, that land for farming purposes is practically 
 valueless to the owner, is it not ? 
 
 A. It has not been profitable to me. 
 
 Q. It does not pay taxes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; just about I think. 
 
 Q. The value of all this property is, or will grow out 
 of its being applied to commercial purposes, or being 
 taken by the railroads ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. This is within the bounds of 
 the city ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. Now, when you 
 really get down to this property hei-e, a railroad going 
 g^. through it, wliere there is no railroad to-day — we have 
 the fact, that a railroad is going through — do you think 
 really it makes much matter whether it goes through 
 five feet high, or twelve feet high, or fifteen feet high? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I do. 
 
 Q. I would like precisely the facts on which you 
 base your opinion ? 
 
 Com. Clark : I was about to ask a question inasmuch 
 as you seem to be familiar with that part of the town, 
 I wish you would give your judgment in detail as much 
 
Box xj 60T 
 
 as possible, showing what will be the probable efieetof3424 
 one road as proposed, or the road that has been adopted 
 over the other. T mean with a view to the future growth 
 of the city, as well as the present condition of the city 
 at that point ? 
 
 A. The lands which we are talking about are low 
 lands, and not far from the Buffalo Creek. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. Are they flooded ? 
 
 A. Occasionally they are flooded; I think this year 
 they were flooded to the depth of something like eighteen ^'^^^ 
 inches ; I have there about three acres and sixty- 
 hundredths, according to Emslie and Lovejoy's map of 
 the Indian reservation lands, in the city of Buffalo ; if 
 they go through at grade they propose to cross me at 
 two points ; the balance of the land can be used. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming: Q. What for? 
 
 A. It can be used for yards. 
 
 Q. For railroad yards ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it can be used for individuals who have 
 need of railroads ; there is quite a portion of it ; take 
 Mr. Savage's and my own ; there is quite a portion of it 
 that would invite some manufacturing establishment 
 there in all probability, now, if they cross at a grade 
 even of four or five feet it destroys some of your chances 
 and some of the uses to which the property can be put 
 in the market ; I cannot draw a distinction nor determine 
 what would be the differouce between an embankment 3437 
 of six feet and eighteen feet; nor will not pretend to 
 state how much either injures the balance of the land ; 
 a short time ago I sought to put a street from the 
 Abbott road to Sandusky streets, so as to have about a 
 thousand feet front of land, cut it up and sell it; I am 
 selling land in the neighborhood, within a short distance, 
 at twelve and fifteen dollars per foot. 
 
 By Com. Clark: Q. Whereabouts? 
 
 A. It is on Smith street. 
 
608 
 
 -ii'lS By Ml-. McMillan : Q. Is tliat on the same side of 
 the road as this ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Coin. Clark : Q. We are only interested in hav- 
 ing the value of these lauds here, 
 
 A. They ure worth from eight hundred dollars to 
 a thousand and fifteen hundred dollars an acre, depend- 
 ing on the fronts and the location. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. You are speaking of the lots 
 ■lA'i'.) you and Jlr. Savage own. 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I was offered seven hundred and fifty, 
 for instance, for my lands some time ago; and, to be 
 entirely frank, I told Mr. Locke he could have them 
 for eight hundred dollars. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. That was for the Lackawanna ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that was on the theory they could 
 utilize a portion of them for their yards, switches and 
 side-tracks. 
 " By Com. Clark: Q. Do you know anything of the 
 
 value of lands in Sandusky street on the south.side of 
 the Lake Shored 
 
 A. There have been no lands sold there that I 
 know of by the foot. 
 
 By Com. Clarke : Q. There are houses and lots 
 there, west of the Lake Shore ? 
 
 A. I am not familiar in there. 
 .,,.,, Mr. Milburn, resuming: Q. Take your own lot, 
 ISl, the altered lot leaves you, does it not, on the north 
 of your lot less interfered with ; is that not a better 
 crossing of that land for your lot if this land in here 
 is worth anything; they are both at grade, you know? 
 
 A. I should think it would be better. 
 
 Q. Then the altered route is an improvement in that 
 regard over their route ? 
 
 A. On the grade. 
 
 Q. 1 say if that altered route is not a better crosB- 
 
Box X] 609 
 
 ing for you there than this one, which swings around 2433 
 and cuts you off from near the north end or your lot ? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Com. Clarke : Q. Why is it better ? 
 Mr. Milburii : In leaving yon more room in here? 
 Q. If tliis is used for commercial pur|)08es you might 
 have acommercial establishment in there, might you not? 
 A. I don't see how you could get out; I don't see 
 what you could establisli in there without any access to it. 
 
 Q. So that a crossing in here at grade, practically 3433 
 destroys the whole of that lot ? 
 
 A. I don't tliink so ; you can drive across the rail- 
 road at grade. 
 
 Q. Then if you can get access to it, then this part 
 of the lot as left by the altered route is better than 
 that small corner left by their route ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If you can get access to it by means of this cross- 
 ing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, either under ground or up. 
 Q. Now, take their line through, don't that practi- 
 cally destroy the balance of the lot for any purpose for 
 which it can be put ? 
 
 A. It takes a good deal of the lot. 
 Q. Don't those two lines running through it, their 
 lines, practically take the whole of your lot ? 
 
 A. I think the balance to me would not be of very 
 much value. 
 
 Q. Therefore, if one of those lines goes through on 
 an enbankment, it can only affect the balance of the lot 
 to you, which is of very little value ? 
 
 A. There would not be much left, you can see that. 
 Q. So that certainly the roads going througli there, 
 practically taking the whole of your lot, and the com- 
 pany going to pay yon for the rest of it 
 
 A. They don't take the whole, they take about 200 
 
 2434 
 
 2435 
 
610 
 
 Ji436 feet, and there are over 600 feet there somewhere ; look- 
 ing at the lines it looks as though they had got the 
 whole thing there. 
 
 Q. As 3'ou have said, with those two lines going 
 through at grade, through that lot, it is pretty much cut 
 up by railroads, and there is very little left of any value ? 
 
 A. I don't now see what I can use it for, although 
 there is the land there. 
 
 Q. Mr. Savage's is the next lot ? 
 3437 A. Yes, sir, No. 82. 
 
 Q. Mr. savage is in the same situation as you are ? 
 
 A. Precisely ; yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. Clark: Q. Did I uudeystand you to say 
 that you were not prepared to give to the commission 
 your views as to the difference between a road going 
 through at grade and one built up? 
 
 A. Not the difference, no, sir ; that was not exa1?,tly 
 
 what I said : I said I was not prepared to say what dif- 
 
 2438 
 
 ference there would be between an embankment eight 
 
 feet high and one nineteen feet high. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. I understood 3'ou to say that it 
 would be more injurious to have a high embankment 
 than a low one? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why ? 
 
 A. The appearance of it, and the access to the prop- 
 erty is cut oft", you have one point where you can cross ; 
 all the rest is substantially cut oft' fey the trestle work or 
 by the embankment. 
 
 Q. You are speaking of j'oiir lot ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Speaking in reference to all the lands about 
 there ? 
 
 A. I think it is the same; it is going to cut 
 off a portion of the land ; for instance, a man has prop- 
 erty on Sandusky street. 
 
Box xj 611 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. Is there any difference as to 2440 
 access with the grade as repi-esented there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; suppose you have a himber-yard that, 
 in order to have raih'oad facilities, you would have to 
 build up ; you would have to build your side-tracks 
 pretty extensive, and your switches, you would have to 
 have them elevated the same height of your main tracks 
 through it. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. That is, to connect with the 
 road ? 2441 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. But where, through 
 this same lot, there is the same railroad running at grade 
 which is accessible, then have you to build your 
 switches, etc., to connect ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, you have to build ; of course you don't 
 have to elevate them. 
 
 Q. Then, if there is one on an embankment, and the 
 same road running through this runs at grade, the con- '^'^'*'^ 
 nectioD will naturall}' be made with the railroad run- 
 ning at grade ? 
 
 A. I suppose that is so. 
 
 Q. And as to your getting back to the point we were 
 
 talking about ; I will ask you if there is any more access 
 
 with the grade represented by the routes as they are 
 
 now, than by the nineteen feet? 
 
 A. Yes, sir: I think so. „,,„ 
 
 244.3 
 Q. How so ? 
 
 A. I think if you wanted to get some apples in an 
 orchard, you could get over a four-foot board fence easier 
 than a twelve-foot. 
 
 Q. Coming down to practical means, by commercial 
 people over railroads, they have their crossings, which 
 become established highways, and they use those high- 
 ways, don't they ; they don't go wandering over all of 
 
612 
 
 2444 those tracks at all points, climbing up this embankment ; 
 we take the established highway ? 
 
 A. Not always, yon take it down on Gaiison street, 
 and every lot owner has the right to insist on approaches 
 to his lot over the track. 
 
 Q. That is where the track is in the street ? 
 
 A. No, sir, on the side of the street. 
 
 Q. Jnst level with the street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 2445 Q. That is the privilege under which that road was 
 allowed to build alongside of the street there? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If those lots were subdivided, would there be a 
 legal right for each owner to have a separate crossing? 
 
 A. Not if the owner took their land before the sale, 
 or if they took it under any circumstances except by 
 agreement. 
 
 By Com, Clark : Q. Your objection to a high em- 
 ^^^^ bankment seems mainly to be to the obstruction which 
 it aifords to a view of the surrounding property ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that -is one of the objections, and then it 
 narrows the uses. 
 
 Q. The present or prospective uses? 
 
 A. Well, I think that the present uses ; they propose 
 
 to go along on one side and take all the lands on Miami 
 
 street, the other side is all built up west of the Lake 
 
 Shore road with an embankment right up in front of a 
 2447 
 
 man's house, I think it substantially destroys the value 
 
 of the property. 
 
 Q. What would be the effect of carrying this route 
 into Sandusky street as it crosses the Lake Shore and 
 Erie, I mean what effect upon the surrounding property; 
 their route, it seems, goes into Sandusky street ; is that 
 land of sufficient importance which should induce the 
 commission to give it consideration? 
 
 A. You go anywhere where they build elevated roads, 
 
Tanner.j 613 
 
 and see the lands are utterly worthless adjacent to it ; 344S 
 you go out to the Niagara Falls road wliere they cross 
 by the Central car shop, and yon can't sell a foot of land 
 there. 
 
 Alonzo B. Tanner, sworn on behalf of the respon- 
 dent, and examined by Mr. Locke, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. You live in the city of Buffalo? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the value of real estate in ^'^^^ 
 this city ? 
 
 A. I think I am. 
 
 Q. You have had large experience in real estate mat- 
 ters, have you not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, considerable. 
 
 Q. You are a practicing lawyer as well? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know the general situation of the prop- 
 erty in the city of Buffalo between the Buffalo Kiver and 
 Alabama street on the east and west, south of the Abbott 
 road and Elk street? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I have not paid any attention to the maps 
 the way those railroads run. 
 
 Q. You do not know how these proposed lines of the 
 Lackawanna road cut the property through at that 
 locality ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I do not. q.^i 
 
 Q. Do you know the situation of lot number 178? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At Red Jacket point ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the property between that and the Lake 
 Shore road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the general situation of the property between 
 
614 
 
 2452 Alabama street and the Lake Shore road as shown on 
 the line of the Lackawanna road? 
 
 A. I could not tell you ranch about that. 
 
 Q. Now, what is the comparative effect upon adja- 
 cent property produced by the building of a railroad 
 through it upon an embankment twenty feet high, as 
 compared with the construction of a railroad through it 
 three or four feet high ? 
 
 A. Well, it -would be more of a damage to the- ad- 
 
 2453 joining property, very much more, with an embankment 
 of ihe height that you speak of. 
 
 Q. Why ? 
 
 A. It would not be as easily got over, accessible to 
 go from one point to another, where you would have to 
 cross this road. 
 
 Q. Would it also interfere with the uses to which the 
 adjacent property might be put ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think it would. 
 " Q. Well, suppose that a railroad be built on the 
 
 south side of Mackinaw street upon a high embankment, 
 what is the effect upon the lots fronting the other side 
 of Mackinaw street ? 
 
 A. Oh, it would damage them. 
 
 Q. Depreciate their value ? 
 
 A. Depreciate their value considerably, I think, of 
 course if a road could be run so as not to change the 
 grade of the land very much, it is less damage. 
 
 2455 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. ililburn : 
 
 Q. All this property in that region, before you get 
 to the Lake Shore, is commons, property lying in com- 
 mon? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they call it farming lands. 
 
 Q. It is farming lands? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
Tanner xj 615 
 
 Q. And its value is prospective according to conimer- 2456 
 cial development? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As railroads may want, it, or as navigation may 
 be opened on the creek ? 
 
 A. On the creek, yes, sir, that is correct. 
 
 Q. Do yon think, generally to begin with, that a rail- 
 road going through these lots, that it makes much differ- 
 ence whether the grade is seven feet high or seventeen 
 feet high ? 2457 
 
 I should think it does. 
 
 In what way would it make a difference ? 
 Supposing I owned land on either side here — 
 Take just that case ? 
 
 It would cut my land right through with a high 
 embankment, and make the high land on either side of 
 the embankment of considerable less value, I suppose, 
 because of the difficulty of passing from one part of the 
 premises to the other ; that would be one very serious '^^°° 
 objection. 
 
 Q. What superiorities of access would a seven-feet 
 embankment afford over a seventeen-feet embankment, 
 with nnder-crossings ? 
 
 A. I don't know as that would make very much dif- 
 ference. 
 
 Q. Supposing you have under-crossings with your 
 seventeen-feet embankment, is the access between the 
 parts of your premises on different sides of the railroad 
 just the same as though your embankment was seven feet 
 high ? 
 
 A. I don't know that that would make so much dif- 
 ference. 
 
 Q. It would remove the objection that presents it- 
 self to your mind ? 
 
 A. That would remove the objection somewhat. 
 
 Q. That whole question is one of access, is it not? 
 
616 
 
 2400 A. Yes, cxcuptiug that the appearance, perhaps, of a 
 high bank seven or ten or fifteen or seventeen feet high 
 on the premises would be more damage to it. 
 
 Q. The appearance of a bank seven feet high will be 
 somewhat objectionable ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And one of seventeen or twenty feet high would 
 also be objectionable ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, only more so. 
 
 2461 Q. Then, if this land is applied for commercial pur- 
 poses and supplies the conveniences for trade, the ques- 
 tion of appearance is reduced to a minimum, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That mainly applies to its being used for building 
 property ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it applies more to that. 
 
 Q. The question of appearance applies more to its 
 being used for building, for dwellings ? 
 
 2462 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (Presents petitioner's map No. " 2" to witness.) 
 
 Q. Look at at this map, where it comes through lots 
 180, 181, 182 and 183, and taking it that there are two 
 railroads, one coming down there and swelling out to 
 that end, as I indicate on the map, doesn't that practi- 
 cally appropriate that lot to those purposes, if those two 
 railroads are built through there, taking it at grade just 
 as indicated on this map. There is very little left, if 
 any, of these lots of any value? 
 
 A. Very little ; it would not apply to that place there 
 (witness indicating on map). 
 
 Q. Take, for instance, lot 101, what is left of front- 
 age on Sandusky street is not of much value, is it, with 
 the railroad coming in there, and having switches out? 
 
 A. Well, you could hardly say of much value, be- 
 cause the frontage on Sandusky street 
 
 Q. There is no street there? 
 
Vom Berge.J 617 
 
 A. Taking the scale there, it actually indicates prob- ^464 
 ably two hundred feet deep from there to the railroad. 
 
 Q. If that was valuable as fronting of Sandusky 
 street, the embankment on this line would be at the rear 
 of that property ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the access to and from that property would 
 be on Sandusky street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that the embankment there would have but ''^^^^ 
 very little effect on the value of that property fronting 
 on Sandusky street, wouldn't it? 
 
 A. It wonld have some effect. 
 
 Q. That is a question of appearance ? 
 
 A. Yes, as a question of appearance it would have 
 some effect of course ; of course this embankment dam- 
 ages the propei'ty more where it runs tlirough a party's 
 
 premises. 
 
 2466 
 Q. That depends on how much of his premises are " 
 
 left, and to what purposes those parts which are left can 
 
 be applied? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; certainly. 
 
 Q. If two railroads going through, practically appro- 
 priate the entire lot, leaving only that which cannot be 
 used for commercial purposes, or cannot be used for 
 dwelling, then he cannot be injured by that embankment? 
 
 A. Not very much. 
 
 2467 
 
 George Vom Berge, sworn for the respondent and 
 examined by Mr. Locke, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Yon reside in Buffalo ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you a civil engineer ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now in the employ of the New York, Lacka- 
 wanna and Western Railway Co. ? 
 
618 
 
 3468 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you ever city engineer? 
 
 A. I was. 
 
 Q. How long were you engineer of the city of Buf- 
 falo ? 
 
 A. I was in the employ from 1862 to 1879. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with tlie location of the different 
 streets in the city ? 
 
 A. I am. 
 2469 Q. Is Louisiana street a paved street? 
 
 A. It is. 
 
 Q. With a fixed grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the base line of city level ? 
 
 A. It is a line established at a certain height above 
 the bottom of the canal. 
 
 Q. What is the height ? 
 
 A. I think it is about eleven feet and some tenths, 
 ^^^^ above the bottom of the canal. 
 
 Q. That is an arbitrary line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What would be its level with the lake level, what 
 would be its base line as compared with the lake level? 
 
 A. Our base line is 2.37 above the lake level. 
 
 By Com. ilc Alpine: Q. The lowest lake level? 
 
 A. The lowest lake level. 
 „ ,^, Q- By Mr. Locke, resuming : Q. Did you assist in 
 locating the Lackawanna line through the city ? 
 
 A- I did. 
 
 Q. How does the Lackawaima grade at Alabama 
 street compare with the grade of tliat street, the located 
 grade of the Lackawanna Road compare with the actual 
 grade of Alabama street? 
 
 A. There is no grade established there. 
 
 Q. Is there with Louisiana? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Vom Berge.J 619 
 
 Q. Can you tell what is the elevation of your located 2472 
 grade, or proposed grade at Louisiana street ? 
 
 A. The city base line is, compared with this one, five 
 hundred and thirty- three ; our base line is according to 
 the levels adopted by the Lackawanna Railroad, 5.33. 
 
 Q. By Com. Clark : Q. What does that mean ? 
 
 A. That is. about the assumed line; I don't know 
 exactly what starting point it was. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan : Q. Can you give the difference 
 in feet and inches betw'een the base line of the Lacka- 3473 
 wanna Road, and the base line of the city level ? 
 
 A. I say it is 533 feet in New-York. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan. Q. 533 feet above or below ? 
 
 A. Our base line, our naught is equal to 533 of the 
 levels of the Lackawanna, naught of our city and 533 
 of theirs are alike. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan : Q. That would make us 533 feet 
 above them ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 3474 
 
 By Mr. Locke, resuming : Q. Will you commence at 
 Louisiana street, going easterly on your proposed line 
 and tell what sti'eets are recorded streets on the line of 
 the Lackawanna as proposed? 
 
 Objected to by Mr. Milburn, on the ground that the 
 record should be produced. 
 
 Q. There is a record of every street that is recorded ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; there is one in the engineer's office, and „.^ 
 one in the city clerk's office. 
 
 Com. Clark : You might proceed with this examina- 
 tion, and if there is any mistake in his testimony the 
 records can be brought in to verify his statement. 
 
 Q. Now, will you please tell which are recorded 
 streets, commencing at Louisiana street, and going west- 
 erly. 
 
 Mr. Milburn : Will you ask him what a recorded 
 street is. 
 
620 
 
 2476 Q. What is a recorded street ? 
 
 A. Recorded streets are those laid out by the Holland 
 Land Co., those that were dedicated to the city, and ac- 
 cepted by the common council, and those that applica- 
 tion was made and commissioners appointed to take the 
 land. 
 
 Q. Now, there is a record made in the engineer's 
 office of every stieet that becomes a public thoi'oughfare, 
 is there not? 
 
 2477 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When a new street is laid out and accepted, it is 
 put upon that record ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Commence at Louisiana street, and tell which are 
 recorded streets as you go east on the Lackawanna line? 
 
 A. Alabama street, Hamburgh street, Sidway street, 
 Katharine street, Fitzgerald street, Mackinaw street and 
 Smith street. 
 ^^"^^ Q. Sandusky ? 
 
 A. I don't recollect, I am not quite certain about 
 Sandusky street. (Presents map to witness.) 
 
 Q. Will you look at that map and see what the pro- 
 posed grade on the altered route would on Alabama 
 street be — calculate it? 
 
 A. At Alabama street the grade as shown on the 
 proposed route would be 547.6. 
 
 'H^9 ^" ^*^^'' ^^'^^ *''^^*' ^^ •^^'5*' tlie present grade of the 
 street, the present level of the street ? 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. Do you know the present level 
 of the street ? 
 
 A. Levels were taken over it. 
 
 By Mr. Locke, resuming: Q. You have got it on 
 your other profile on the large map ; see what the grade 
 is there ? 
 
 A. The elevation of ground is 535.5. 
 
Vom Berge x] 621 
 
 Q. How did you get that elevation of ground ? 2480 
 
 A. I scaled it. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Milburn : 
 
 Q. Was this last answer scaled ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you consider that a proper way to get any- 
 thing on a profile, to scale a profile ? 
 
 A. As long as the book of levels is not here, that is 
 the only way to get it, that is the elevation of the^.p, 
 ground m the street. 
 
 Q. That is an approximation, that is all that you 
 can claim for that. 
 
 A. It corresponds as near as it can be brought with 
 the actual levels taken. 
 
 Q. When you give us a distance on a profile from 
 scaling, you can only give an approximation by scaling ? 
 
 Q. It is as near as it can be got without having the 
 original notes. 2482 
 
 Q. It is as near as it can be got, therefore it is only 
 an approximation ? 
 
 A. It is as near as I can get it. 
 
 Q. As near as you can get it from that map? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McMillan : Q. This 547 feet, that is the ele- 
 vation above the base line ? 
 
 A. Above the base line. 
 
 Q. And the 533 feet the same? 2483 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that the difference between those two gives 
 the elevation above the street ? 
 
 A. The elevation of the proposed line above the 
 ground in Alabama street. 
 
 Q. As near as you can figure on tliis map ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I want to ask if any of these streets that you 
 named have a fixed grade ? 
 
622 
 
 248i A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which ones, commeuciug with Alabama ? 
 
 A. Alabama has none; Hamburg has a fixed grade. 
 
 Q. Just give us that grade, what the fixed grade of 
 Alabama street is ? 
 
 A. I have not the figures with me. 
 
 Q. Can jou tell from this map which you have made 
 here, can't yon toll approximately ? 
 
 A. Oh, no, sir; this map only shows the elevation 
 2i85 of the ground, it don't show the grade. 
 
 Q. It don't show tlie elevation of the street ? 
 
 A. It shows the elevation of the street, but not the 
 grade of the street as established. 
 
 Q. How about Sidway street ? 
 
 A. That is an established. 
 
 Q. Katharine street ?. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Fitzgerald street ? 
 
 3486 A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mackinaw street? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Smith street? 
 
 A. That has none. 
 
 Q. You don't know what the fixed grade of any of 
 these streets is ? 
 
 A. I didn't notice, partieularlj^, any of them ; I 
 
 know the grades are established. 
 2487 
 
 Q. You cannot give that at the point where the line 
 
 crosses ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Eeferring to the map that you have there, each of 
 those lines, that is the located line and the proposed 
 change, pass over the same streets, don't they? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, excepting Sandusky street, the proposed 
 Lackawanna route does not cross Sandusky street, but 
 the altered route does. 
 
Vom Berge.J 623 
 
 Q. Do you recollect whether Sandusky street is a re- 3488 
 corded street or not ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I don't recollect. 
 
 Q. Is it customary for the railroads coming into 
 and passing through the city of Buffalo to cross the 
 streets at the grade of the street, that is, do not the com- 
 mon council allow them, and is it not customary that the 
 grade of the street is elevated to correspond with the 
 railroad, usually? 
 
 A. In several cases the grade of the street has been '^'^^^ 
 raised. 
 
 Q. To correspond with the grade of the railroad ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you connected with the department of en- 
 gineering for the city of Buffalo at the time the Erie 
 crossed Batavia street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wasn't that grade at that street raised seven feet 
 
 ,, -c, . , 2490 
 
 to go over the Jiirie 5 
 
 A. I don't recollect the exact amount. 
 
 Q. About that amount ? 
 
 A. I think it must have been in the neighborhood of 
 six or seven feet. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. Will you state to what extent 
 these streets over which this amended line runs are popu- 
 lated and built upon ? 
 
 A. I don't recollect. , 2401 
 
 lie-direct examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 Q. Alabama street, is it not ? 
 A. Alabama street is partly built upon. 
 Q. Louisiana street is ? 
 
 A. There are mostly lumber yards on each side of 
 Louisiana street. 
 Q. How is Fitzgerald street ? 
 
624 
 
 3i92 A. Below the gas works there are quite a number 
 of houses oil Fitzgerald street. 
 
 Q. How is Hamburgh street? 
 
 A. Hamburgh streetj below Mackinaw street, is not 
 very thickly settled ; I guess there are a few houses 
 along there. 
 
 Q. Katharine street ? 
 
 A. A few scattered houses on it. 
 
 By Com. Mc Alpine : Q. Will you please prepare 
 2V.y^ for the commissioners a table which will show the level 
 to be ascertained by scaling these maps at each one 
 hundred feet on the original line, and on the amended 
 line, first of the grade of the top of the rail, next of the 
 surface of tlie ground, and tlio difference between the 
 two arranged in ptirallel lines to show the difference be- 
 tween those differences at each of the hundred feet dis- 
 tances ; I will modify the question ; instead of this re- 
 quest to Mr. Vom Bei-go, I now request that Mr. Haven 
 and ilr. Berrian shall prepare a tracing of these maps 
 which will show the same result. 
 
 ;249-t 
 
 Asaph S. Bemis, sworn for the respondent, and ex- 
 amined by Mr. Locke, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. You reside here in Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For how many years have you ? 
 3405 A. Well, ail my life principally — sixty-four years. 
 
 Q. Are you interested in property in the neighbor- 
 hood of Mackinaw, Alabama, Louisiana, Sidway, and 
 Katharine streets in this city ? 
 
 A. My wife has some real estate there of which I 
 have the charge; she owns the fee of all that is there. 
 
 Q. How many feet street front have you there upon 
 these different streets, say below Mackinaw street ; have 
 you any idea ? 
 
 A. I think on the west line of Mackinaw we have one 
 
Bemis.] 625 
 
 block of four hundred and sixty-five feet, and I think 2496 
 seventy-five feet in another locality on that west line of 
 the street. 
 
 Q. Talte the other side? 
 
 A. On the other side of Katharine street, in one 
 block sixty feet, and in anotlier seventy-five feet, ■accord- 
 ing to my recollection ; I conld not tell yon exactly, 
 
 Q. How mnch is Mackinaw street built npon or used? 
 
 A. Mackinaw street in this vicinity has some half 
 dozen or more houses ; we have some on Mackinaw 3497 
 street 'adjoining these blocks. 
 
 Q. How is Hamburg street ? 
 
 A. You mean in reference to the number of build- 
 ings? 
 
 Q. Improvements ? yes sir. 
 
 A. My attention has not been called to that partic- 
 ularly. 
 
 Q. That is a good deal of a thoroughfare, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^^98 
 
 Q. Is Katharine street a thoroughfare ? 
 
 A. It is the main and principal thoroughfare leading 
 to the iron works. 
 
 Q. Is Sidway street built upon at all ? 
 
 A. I think it is entirely built up between Elk and 
 Mackinaw streets. 
 
 Q. How is it between Mackinaw and Sandusky? 
 
 A. I think there are no buildings between those two 
 streets. 
 
 Q. Is it all laid out into lots ? 
 
 Objected to by Mr. Milburn. 
 
 A. I had it mapped out in 1854. 
 
 Q. Now, will you state how, in your judgment, 
 that property would be affected by the construction of a 
 railroad through there, elevated above the surface from 
 seventeen to twenty-five feet high, take it from Katha- 
 rine street to the Lake Shore road, and then running 
 
 3499 
 
626 
 
 3500 down so that the grade would he hit somewhere in 
 Louisiana street, commencing at the Lake Shore road 
 about thirty feet above the surface, and running down 
 so as to strilte the grade of Louisiana street ? 
 
 A. Well, I should consider tliat it would be a great 
 detriment to the land in its present shape and condition, 
 all other roads crossing it on what is deemed to be the 
 established grade of the streets. 
 
 Q. On the same grade as the Lake Shore road, and 
 2501 running down so as to strike the grade at Louisiana 
 street ? 
 
 Objected to by Mr. Milburn on the ground that the 
 witness should state facts. 
 
 A. I can give you comparisons in regard to Katha- 
 rine street, where the trestles run over there on a higher 
 grade in order to get to the chutes as thej^ have them on 
 the south side of Buffalo Harbor, and when permission 
 has been given to cross a street and put up obstructions, 
 they generally put them where they please witliout re- 
 gard to the owners of property ; Katharine street is ob- 
 structed in that way now by heavy timbered trestle 
 work. 
 
 Q. The Lackawanna route is a route proposed to 
 
 cross the Lake Shore at grade, run over all these streets 
 
 at grade, and run to Louisiana street, and there strike 
 
 the grade of the street as it appears in evidence here, 
 
 „.„„ while the proposed altered route, the grade of the Lack- 
 a50o 1-1 
 
 awanna road is changed so as to ci'oss the Lake Shore 
 
 road some twenty-five feet above the Lake Sliore rail 
 
 and then carried along to the west so that it strikes 
 
 grade at Louisiana street, or a little below grade at 
 
 Louisiana street ? 
 
 Q. Being an inclined plane down there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which will most interfere witli the value of prop- 
 erty in that vicinity, in your judgment ? 
 
iiemis.J 627 
 
 A. "Well, in my humble judgment, Mr. Locke, 1 think 3504 
 it would be quite a serious difference between an elevated 
 road and one going on a grade. 
 
 Q. Which would be the worst for the property ? 
 
 A. I think the elevated road would. I cannot see 
 where it would benefit them, in any respect. 
 
 Q. Suppose both roads are built with solid earthen 
 embankments, what would be the effect upon the sur- 
 rounding property? 
 
 A. The result would be that property would be 3505 
 hemmed in against anj kind of outlet or drainage, and 
 as usual, the common council would be called up to abate 
 nuisances, not only annually but daily and weekly, I 
 think. Such is pretty much the case now, I think. 
 
 Q. Now, an embankment through there, if carried 
 twenty or twenty-live feet high, would not only injure 
 the land immediately taken for the railroad, but would 
 injure adjacent property, wouldn't it? 
 
 A. I should judge so. ^^^^ 
 
 Q. Property that was not included in the right of 
 way ? 
 
 A. Impair its future prospects unless it was entirely 
 absorbed and consumed by the railroad companies, and 
 they could use it probably in a different manner from 
 what individuals or citizens would for places of business. 
 
 Q. Would a lot facing twenty-five feet high be worth 
 as much as an out-look over a railroad ? 9';fi7 
 
 A. It would be a good thing to pay taxes on, I guess. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. Let him state more fully how the 
 future prospects of the land would be impaired by a rail- 
 road at grade as now established ? 
 
 A. Well, a road elevated above the ordinary grade 
 of the street, belt eight or ten or fifteen above, certainly 
 would, in my estimation, be what would be termed an 
 obstruction at crossings of the street or along the line of 
 
628 
 
 3608 the adjacent property ; it would be. difficult to dispose 
 of such property in the market at the ordinary market 
 value of it on account of these adjoining hindrances and 
 obstructions and dangers, etc., being in close proximity 
 to the railroad, we regard it as being somewhat disadvan- 
 tageous unless it is business property required to be used 
 in connection with the railroads, and then it is not so ob- 
 jectionable. But, as a general thing, this property is be- 
 ing used by the mediocrity of people because it is cheaper 
 2509 than in any other locality, and not only employees of 
 railroads but all other kinds of business men, seek that 
 kind of property for their dwellings and residences, and 
 hence I judge it would be disadvantageous to the future 
 prospects of the property, unless, as I before remarked, 
 it became all absorbed for coal yards and was all con- 
 verted to trestle. 
 
 By Com. Clark: Q. It would be more disadvanta- 
 geous to the property than grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; in either case with an embankment or 
 trestle-work. I think everybody interested in property 
 there expects to admit railroads, and we expect to submit 
 to the crossing of this railroad, but when it comes to 
 lifting it as high as the roofs of dwelling-houses it might 
 be considered a great detriment. 
 
 Q. To what extent are those streets in that vicinity 
 populated, nsw? 
 
 A.. Well, there is quite a settlement in the vicinity 
 of the iron works, although they are for the time being 
 suspended. There is a large school, carrying in the 
 neighborhood of a thousand scholars, on Hamburg street, 
 in the immediate vicinity, and Hamburg street and Kath- 
 arine street are two of the most important thoroughfares 
 in that section of the city, and the only ones in fact lead- 
 ing down into the river, and Sidway street and Fitzger- 
 ald street are short streets terminating at the railroad. 
 
iJetnis xj 629 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Milbnrn : 3512 
 
 Q. Mrs. Bemis, you say, owned property liere affected 
 by these things. She owns one piece of two hundred 
 and twenty-seven feet on Sandusky and Mackinaw 
 streets, and four hundred and fifty-six feet on Katharine 
 and Sid way streets ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. She also owns this block one hundred and twenty- 
 live feet on E'itzgerald and Katharine streets, and about 
 two hundred and sixty feet deep ? 'ib^Z 
 
 A. This is two hundred and sixty-eight feet deep ; 
 there are sixty feet sold out ot there. 
 
 Q. On the lots of land how many houses are there, 
 to-day ? 
 
 A. There are no houses there. 
 
 Q. There are no houses on any of this property? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the value of land here, I mean the mar- 
 ket value, not what its value is for railroads, but the val- 
 ue for buildings there, for the last year, say ? 
 
 A. Well, I have sold in this vicinity for twenty dol- 
 lars a foot. 
 
 Q. In this region, I mean ? 
 
 A. I would not sell any of that for less tlian twenty 
 dollars a foot. 
 
 Q. What do you consider the market value of land 
 there in the vicinity of Sidway, Katharine and Fitzger- ,,_-,- 
 aid streets and lying between Sandusky and Mackinaw ? 
 
 A. It would be worth fifty dollars a foot; we don't 
 expect to get over twenty-five ; it is worth all you can 
 get; it depends entirely upon the kind of customer you 
 have. 
 
 Q. Now, do you say that where a railroad crosses streets, 
 it is better to cross them at gradeby a railroad, with 
 all its passenger and freight trains, a ti-unk line, than it 
 
630 
 
 2516 is to cross them under an arch, giving clear headway 
 for all traffic and the abutments off the street ? 
 
 A. Well, if I owned land. 
 
 Q. I am merely taking it as a matter of which is the 
 most preferable ? 
 
 A. It is a complicated question. 
 
 Q. 1 mean ;n reference to the nse of the streets, 
 
 whether a crossing at grade by a trunk line, with its 
 
 freight and passenger business, or a crossing on an arch 
 
 3517 over the streets which leaves clear headway for all 
 
 traffic, and the abutments of which are without the street? 
 
 A. Do you mean in regard to the safetj', the opera- 
 tion of the street and the easement of it. 
 
 Q. The use of the street by the public? 
 
 A. Well, perhaps human life on the highway would 
 be safer during the operations of both, but, as I have 
 before remarked, the future prospects of the property is 
 a question in my mind how it is going to affect it. 
 
 Q. Now, we are just confined to the interests of the 
 public, and 1 ask you, if, in yoiir opinion, it is not the 
 best mode of crossing of a street to go over head, clear 
 and free from all traffic ? 
 
 A. I think if it was a general thing throughout the 
 city there would be much more safety to human life, but 
 we have thereon all sides these railroads. 
 
 Q. You know that there are a great many accidents 
 occurring at these crossings of streets by railroads, ac- 
 cidents to persons particularly ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; probably a greater percentage would 
 occur to those roads that are on a grade-line with the 
 streets, in consequence of their operations, but I was 
 asked the question in regard to affecting the value of 
 the property, and 1 have stated what I have prospectively 
 on the future of the property. 
 
 Q. If this property, lying between the Lake Shore 
 and Alabama and Mackinaw streets, is useful for build- 
 
 3.") 19 
 
Beimis xj 631 
 
 iiig lots, the mere sending of a railroad through it at 2520 
 grade depreciates its value, does it not ? 
 
 A. Oil, it would depreciate tliat that comes in con- 
 tact with it. 
 
 Q. It depreciates that that it comes in contact with 
 and does it not depreciate that immediately adjoining it 
 for dwelling purposes ? 
 
 A. I don't know but it would ; 1 would not want to 
 live right alongside. 
 
 Q. The great fact in regard to injury to property like 2521 
 this is a railroad going through it at all ? 
 
 A. No, sir; there is a broad distinction in my estima- 
 tion between going across on a grade-line and elevating 
 it u]) as high as the roofs of the houses. 
 
 Q. What sort of houses are those down there — that 
 vicinity ? 
 
 A. They ai-e mainly wooden houses. 
 
 Q. Do you think that the people who live down there, 
 in that vicinity, are people who pay a very great regard 
 to the looks or aesthetics of the railroad going through 
 there ? 
 
 A. Well, I am not disposed to judge of such people 
 any different from those living on the avenue. 
 
 Q. They are plain working people, tliat is what I 
 mean to get at ? 
 
 A. I presume so. 
 
 Q. Now, this property here is occupied by laborers 
 and artisans, is it nets 
 
 A. I guess they are not laboring very much now on 
 account of the suspended operations of the iron works 
 and rolling mills. 
 
 Q. When- they are at work is that what they are at 
 work at? 
 
 A. As a general thing, most of them are employes 
 that have been in the service of the railroad or iron 
 works, or depots, etc. 
 
632 ' 
 
 yj''+ Q. Now, what is tlie great objection, or the great 
 difference, saj, take tliis lot of yours lying between Sid- 
 waj' and Katharine streets, between their taking one 
 hundred feet tlirough that, and grading it np as they 
 please, and putting their tracks on it, and having a trestle, 
 say eighteen or nineteen feet high, and their trains going 
 over that, will you please tell what are the facts, which 
 show that more injury is created to the land by the 
 trestle than by this railroad going over, a nine-foot grade 
 
 2525 going right through there ? 
 
 A. Well, the difference is that the trestle-work 
 would be about as high as the roofs of the ordinary 
 houses there, and would deliver all its smoke and sparks 
 and everything of that sort over the roofs instead of 
 along the road. 
 
 Q. Do you think as much of the smoke of a railroad 
 seventeen or nineteen feet in the aii' will be delivered 
 
 into those houses as from a railroad running nine feet ? 
 
 2526 , T 1 • 1 
 
 A. i think so. 
 
 Q. The smoke would come downwards ? 
 
 A. It would come downwards. 
 
 Q. That is a region pretty much given up and cut 
 up by the railroads of to-day, is it not? 
 
 A. I don't know as it is. 
 
 Q. You don't believe in elevated railroads, do you ? 
 
 A. I had rather travel on a solid foundation. 
 252? Q" What sort of an elevated railroad is this one that 
 your speak of in this vicinity ; it is a coal trestle is it not ? 
 
 A. I believe so, this would be about the same thing. 
 
 Q. That is where you suppose wrong? 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. That is a regular coal trestle on a steep slant ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I suppose so. 
 
 Q. And that you are comparing to this road as pro- 
 posed to be built through here ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Bemis xj 633 
 
 Q. And a good deal of your judgment, or some part 3538 
 of the judgment, as to the injury, is dependent upon the 
 comparison of this road, as we propose it shall go through 
 there, with this eoal trestle that is in your mind ? 
 
 A. I can see no great benefit. 
 
 Q. Just answer that question, if in reaching your 
 judgment about the effect of this road as we propose it 
 shall be built, you are comparing it as a structure with 
 this coal trestle ? 
 
 A. Well, so far as the construction of it is concerned, 3529 
 it strikes ine it would be about the same thing, there 
 would not be anything very neat, nor anything very 
 sightly, to use that expression. 
 
 Q. That enters into and affects your judgment ; are 
 you opposed to elevated railroads in the city any way ? 
 
 A. I don't see what that has to do with this case. 
 
 Q. That is not your business, if counsel don't object 
 to it? 
 
 A. I think I should oppose any such thing as that; as 
 a member of the common council, and as a representa- 
 tive of the people, I should oppose it. 
 
 Q. Are you opposed to elevated railroads anyway ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I am not ; you might have all you wanted 
 on your own property. 
 
 Q. What sort of an elevated railroad are you in 
 favor of? 
 
 A. I am not a railroad builder nor a stockholder. ,._, 
 
 Mr. Locke offered in evidence, the street record of the 
 city of Buffalo, showing the opening of Sandusky street 
 from Hamburg street, to the reservation line. 
 
 Evidence received : 
 
 It is admitted that the Indian reservation line is west- 
 erly of the tracks of the Lake Shore and Michigan 
 Southern Railway Company, as now located near the 
 point of the proposed crossing of the Lackawanna, and 
 upon lands of the Erie Railway, and is the northwest 
 
634 
 
 2533 boundary of the Erie right of way at the point of cross- 
 ing by the Lackawanna. 
 
 Habry Fillmore, sworn on behalf of the respondents, 
 and examined by Mr. Lock, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Where do you reside ? 
 
 A. Scranton. 
 
 Q. You are now engaged on the engineer force of 
 the Lackawanna road in the city of Buffalo ? 
 ^533 A.. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know the location of the proposed cross- 
 ing of the Lake Shore road at Sandusky street, or near 
 Sandusky street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you do on the engineer force ? 
 
 A. I hold the position of rod-man. 
 
 Q. Were you sent to observe the movement of trains 
 over the proposed point of crossing at any time recently, 
 and, if so, when ? 
 
 A. I was sent Monday night, July 18th. 
 
 Q. And did you go to the premises ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What time did you arrive there ? 
 
 A. I got there about 8.20 in the evening. 
 
 Q. How long did you stay ? 
 
 A. I staid until 5.30 in the morning. 
 2535 Q. Did you observe every obstruction upon the Lake 
 Shore tracks and Erie tracks at that proposed point of 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. During those hours ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And how wide a section of the crossed road did 
 yon consider as the point of crossing? 
 
 A. I only took the main line ; I did not take any 
 width at al), I took simply the line. 
 
Fillmore.J 635 
 
 Q. The center line ? 3536 
 
 A. Yes, sir, the center line. 
 
 Q. Did you know how long the center line was ob- 
 structed in each case? 
 
 A. I Did. 
 
 Q. And the character of the obstruction ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you afterwards assist in making this graphic 
 sketch ? 
 
 A. I did not. 3537 
 
 Q. What did you do with your memoranda ? 
 
 A. I have the paper here. 
 
 Q. Who made this graphic sketch ? 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Are these the memoranda that you made ? refer- 
 ring to paper produced by witness. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they express the time when an obstruction was 
 placed upon that point of intersection, and the time that 
 it remained there ? 
 
 A. They do. 
 
 Q. Now, what was the first obstruction ? 
 
 A. The first obstruction was a freight train, 8.20. 
 
 Q. How long did it remain there ? 
 
 A. One minute. 
 
 Q. On which track was it ? 
 
 A. On the first track. 3539 
 
 Q. Which way? 
 
 A. The first track coming from Bufi"alo Greek ; I 
 don't know which way it is. 
 
 Q. Which side of the Lake Shore road ? 
 
 A. It is away from the city. 
 
 Q. How long was the next obstruction ? 
 
 A. Two seconds. 
 
 Q. What was that \ 
 
 A. An engine and one freight car. 
 
2540 Q 
 
 636 
 
 When did that get there ? 
 
 A. 8.24. 
 
 Q. On what track ? 
 A. On the first track. 
 Q. What was the next one? 
 
 A. The next one was one engine and one freight car. 
 Q. What did you do with that memorandnm after 
 yon got it done ? 
 
 A. I lett it with Mr. Welcli at tlie National Hotel, 
 
 3541 and he gave it to Mr. Shipman. 
 
 (It is admitted that the graphic sketch was made by 
 Mr. Shipman, from tlie memorandum produced by this 
 witness and made correctly, and that the graphic sketch 
 produced marked " 22 '' is the one referred to.) 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. McMillan : 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the engineer's de- 
 partment ? 
 
 3542 A. About eight months. 
 
 Q. Were you present when this line was located. 
 Were you in their employ then, and did you assist as 
 roadman, or in any other capacity ? 
 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. That represents that crossing down there, "Exhibit 
 3," just point out about where you stood when you 
 took this time ? 
 
 A. I can't show yon exactly by this map ; I think I 
 stood by that switch ; I had to use a light to write by ; I 
 think that was the red lamp on the switch. 
 
 Q. Ton stood near the point of crossing as laid out 
 by the Lackawanna, did you ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On the Lake Shore track, or near it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you alone ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I was alone. 
 
Fillmore xj 63? 
 
 Q. Did you stand or sit ? 2544 
 
 A. I stood all the time. 
 
 Q. How far were you from what they call the target 
 out there? 
 
 A. It is about two hundred feet, I should think. 
 
 Q. Then the entire yard and transfer-house were 
 north of you some two or three thousand feet, were they 
 not? 
 
 A. I don't know the distance. 
 
 Q. Well, they were north of you ? 2545 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many tracks did you take out there ? 
 
 A. Six. 
 
 Q. There are ten tracks, are they not, at the point of 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. It seems so by that plan. 
 
 Q. Did you take anything on the Erie ? 
 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. You took on all the tracks that cross that point, 4546 
 as you understood, did you ? 
 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. Which track from the point where you stood did 
 you call track number one ; was it the one nearest to 
 you? 
 
 A. It was the one furtherest over. 
 
 Q. Then number two was the one next nearest to you 
 from that? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. '''' 
 
 Q. Number two had an obstruction all the time, had 
 it, as appears from this graphic sketch ? 
 
 A. I don't understand that graphic sketch. 
 
 Q. You took your own time, and made your own an- 
 notations ; you had your own time-piece ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You took no memoranda of any delays here in the 
 
63a 
 
 2548 yard, of the trains on either the Lake Shore or the Erie 
 waiting for the tai'get, did you ? 
 
 A. I did not. 
 
 Q. You took no delays of trains in the yard incident 
 to the target being set for passenger trains that were 
 due, did you ? 
 
 A. I don't quite understand your question. 
 
 Q. For instance, when a passenger train is due at this 
 point, the target is set for it, and no freight train can go 
 
 2549 out from this yard ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And the target remains set until the target-man 
 gets some instruction that the train is behind time to such 
 an extent that he can let them go out ; you took no note 
 of that, did you ? 
 
 A. I did, in two instances. 
 
 Q. Just refer to your memoranda and see what those 
 were ? 
 ^^ ' A. Three o'clock the crossing was blocked and a 
 train kept waiting twenty minutes. 
 
 Q. By what ? 
 
 A. By a freight train on the Lake Shore. 
 
 Q. That was kept waiting on your crossing, was it ? 
 
 A. On the Erie crossing, it was also on ours. 
 
 Q. It was at the point crossed by your track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 g.g Q. Then you did not make any minute of anything 
 except obstructions along the center line of the Lacka- 
 wanna proposed route ? 
 
 A. I did also across that track there. 
 
 (Witness indicates the track.) 
 
 Q. That was the cause, but you took the time of the 
 obstruction at the Lackawanna ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you have no note of any delays of freight 
 trains coming in, on the Lake Shore, have you, ? 
 
Fillmore xj 639 
 
 A. I have not. 2552 
 
 Q. About what ia the distance between the dock- 
 track and track number one? 
 
 A. I could not tell. 
 
 Q. Give us an approximate estimate ; it would be 
 about three hundred feet across there ; and you stood at 
 a point about at the center? 
 
 A. I stood somewheres near that track ; I came over 
 near the Erie track when there were trains over there. 
 
 Q. Do jon think you could take time as close as two 3553 
 or three seconds down there ? 
 
 A. I could by counting. 
 
 Q. Was that the way you did it ? 
 
 A. That was the way I did it. 
 
 Q. And how many did you count for a second ? 
 
 A. I didn't count at all, I simply held the seconds in 
 my own mind. 
 
 Q. That was the way you arrived at the number of 
 seconds, or the time in which it took the train to cross 
 over? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Had your watch a second- 
 hand ? 
 
 A. It had no second-hand, no, sir ; it was an old- 
 fashioned watch, very old. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. About that time did you 
 observe if they were drilling trains, back and forth across, 
 or locomotives here from the yard ? 
 
 A. There were a few way down beyond the Erie 
 transfer-house. 
 
 Q. How was it in the Lake Shore yard ? 
 
 A. There were a few trains moving there. 
 
 Q. Do you understand this graphic sketch? 
 
 A. Partially. 
 
 Q. Then tell me how it is; you have only taken six 
 tracks ? 
 
640 
 
 2556 A. Those were all that were used. 
 
 Q. Those were all that were used that night? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say the first track was the extreme easterly 
 one and number two was the next one to it ; you con- 
 tinued to count them until you came up to where you 
 stood, as one, two, three, four ? 
 
 A. I believe I only took this one track, and did not 
 talvc that switch at all, as I understand it. 
 3557 Q. You had four tracks on the east of you, and you 
 only gave numbers one and two to the first four tracks ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On the west of yon here are two tracks on the 
 Erie ; what numbers did you call them? 
 
 A. I believe one of the Erie was five, and two of 
 them six ; one of those was not used at all. 
 
 „.^„ William A. Haven, recalled on behalf of the re- 
 spondent, and examined by Mr. McMillan, testified as 
 follows : 
 
 Q. You prepared this profile ? (Presents profile to 
 witness.) 
 
 A. I had it prepared. 
 
 Respondents here rested. 
 
 3559 Jacob H. Linville, recalled for the petitioner, and 
 examined by Mr. Milburn, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. I wish you would commence at the easterly end 
 of this change that we propose, of the route of the 
 Lackawanna, and describe to the commissioners from an 
 engineer's point of view, having reference to durability 
 and economy; what constructions should be made to ac- 
 complish the purpose sought, beginning now on line A? 
 
 A. I would first commence with an embankment 
 
Linville. | 641 
 
 until the heights of tlie grade ran about ten feet, and I 3560 
 would build the trestle-work either framing trestles of 
 hemlocli with pine stringers, or by driving piles for the 
 posts, capping those and placing stringers onto them at 
 all points where it was more than ten feet height of em- 
 bankment, except at street crossings and railroad cross- 
 ings and the river bridge ; over the streets and the rail- 
 roads 1 would place iron bridges supported on stone 
 abutments, and in the crossing of the railroad interme- 
 diate piers; at the river I would build abutments of 2561 
 stone, and a pier, making two spans of bridge. 
 
 Q. Now, I will ask you, there, when you get onto, 
 what for this purpose we will call the west side of the 
 Lake Shore and Erie railroads, this crossing, what 
 would be the nature of the structure over this part, cut 
 up with streets, until the grade of the Lackawanna is 
 again struck ? 
 
 Cora. Clark : . Does this extend to the intersection ? 
 
 A. The description, so far, practically covers the 3562 
 whole line at the streets and raih'oad crossings; I would 
 place bridges where the elevation over the street was 
 suflScient to require a bi'idge; where it was not sufficient 
 I would raise the approaches of the streets up and at 
 intermediate points I should place a trestle-work. 
 
 Q. What sort of a trestle-work would you place 
 there? 
 
 A. Well, my impression is that a frame trestle work, 
 made of hemlock timber and using white pine stringers '^^°° 
 would be built a little cheaper than pile trestle work, but 
 there is very little ditference in the cost. 
 
 Q. One of the things that I wanted to get at was 
 what would be the feasibility in reference to this being 
 an inhabited part and there being streets here and in 
 view of these lots being used for building purposes, as to 
 making an iron trestle over this part, west of the Lake 
 Shore? 
 
642 
 
 2564 A. There is no difficulty whatever in making iron 
 trestles through all that portion and through the entire 
 line where I have mentioned that wooden trestle can be ■ 
 made ; I spoke of wooden trestle in reference to making 
 a permanent embankment ; the line can be constructed 
 with wrought iron trestle at a very slight additional cost 
 over wooden trestles, and a permanent embankment af- 
 terwards filled in ; thej can be constructed at once, one 
 operation to make a permanent road, and a very slight 
 
 3565 increased cost over the wooden trestle and the embank- 
 ment ; the expense is practically the same for the per- 
 manent structure. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. An expense over a 
 wooden trestle afterwards to be filled with earth em- 
 bankment ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the permanent structure of iron trestle 
 work occupying the space between the streets and over 
 
 the streets will cost slightly more than a wooden trestle 
 25fifi 
 
 filled with an embankment ; it requires a trestle to be 
 
 placed there first in order to convey the material to that 
 
 point. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. In reference to this point 
 of the line, the west side of the Lake Shore crossing be- 
 ing a part of the city cut up into streets and appropriated 
 to building purposes, what would be the best sort of a 
 structure to make there, this wooden trestle to be filled 
 2gg~ in as an embankment, with bridges over the streets, or 
 over that course an iron trestle ? 
 
 A. The iron structure would be the most desirable 
 structure there for various reasons, in that locality. 
 
 Q. State why ? 
 
 A. It is a very permanent structure, secure ; there 
 can be no objections i-aised to a structure of that kind on 
 account of its want of permanency; and it is open; 
 spans of thirty feet alternating, say with spans of thirty 
 feet that are braced ; simply truss rods across them— 
 
LinviUe.] 645 
 
 they are spans of thirty feet that are open, alternate with 2568 
 those that are braced, so that every thirty feet you have 
 spans of thirty feet of clear; thirty feet is clear and thirty 
 feet is braced, and thirty feet clear again, or about in 
 that proportion, so that vehicles, roads, anything may 
 pass under at so many intermediate points between the 
 streets; they cannot pass under, of course, when it is 
 sohd embankment; can only pass at the street crossings ; 
 it don't obstruct the light or view of the surrounding 
 property. ' 3569 
 
 Q. Then it is with reference to all the surrounding 
 property that you would prefer at that point the iron 
 trestle over any other form of structure ? 
 
 A. Decidedly. 
 
 Q. That iron trestle would be horizontal — will you 
 just describe it a little? 
 
 A. The usual method of constructing iron trestle is 
 to put up trestles, iron posts placed on small piers and 
 braced across at the bottom and at the top and diago- ' 
 nally, forming open pier ; for a single track there would 
 be four of those columns forming a trestle, and for a 
 double track you might use six or eight; and then the 
 top is a longitudinal girder, reaching over this thirty 
 feet to a pier, and then between that trestle pier and the 
 next trestle pier is a longitudinal girder spanning over 
 the open space, so that it is simply a set of piers placed, 
 say thirty feet apart, clear with longitudinal girders 
 connectmg, these piers consisting or only tour or six 
 or eight posts. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine ; Q. Piers consisting of iron posts 
 instead of what would be commonly understood by piers 
 constructed of masonry ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; the posts are placed at the corners, 
 and all the space between them is open ; there is noth- 
 ing to obstruct the light but a couple of diagonal rods 
 
644 
 
 2572 wliich cross to brace the posts and hold them in a verti- 
 cal position. 
 
 By Com. ilcAlpine : Q. Diagonal rods transversely 
 of the railroad ? 
 
 A. Transversely and longitudinally also. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. But not longitudinally of 
 the railroad ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that prevents vehicles from crossing 
 
 through the piers,. but at each side of the pier is an open- 
 
 3573 ii^g ^^^^ i^ unobstructed ; there is nothing over that 
 
 opening, but the longitudinal girder of the bridge under 
 
 the track. 
 
 By counsel, resuming: Q. Could you have this part 
 of the route that you have last mentioned made of the 
 iron trestle, the iron bridge over the railroad and then 
 all the rest of the course, going east, this trestle-work 
 and embankment that you have mentioned? 
 
 A. We could have that just as readily as if the whole 
 2574 of both lines were constructed of embankment, and we 
 could as readily construct this other portion of iron 
 trestle. 
 
 Q. The other portion going east ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we could just as readily construct the 
 entire altered route, except the bridges, of iron trestles. 
 
 Q. Now would you please state and give a descrip- 
 tion to the commissioners, the nature of the bridge that 
 you would design and erect crossing the railroads on the 
 ^^'^S altered line ? 
 
 A. I would propose to cross the Lake Shore tracks 
 on the altered route witli a span of 125 feet, an iron 
 bridge over the Lake Shore tracks ; then from O to If, 
 perhaps an iron trestle-work, in order not to obstruct the 
 view there, leave it open, not put in any embankment 
 there which would require large abutments ; that is about 
 220 feet ; then a span of 100 feet over the Erie tracks ; 
 
Linville.] 645 
 
 then two spans of 63 feet, the second of which spans 257& 
 Fitzgerald street. 
 
 Q. Have you considered at all the question of a 
 bridge over their proposed route ? 
 
 A. I have not made any detailed estimate of it ; in 
 order to bridge on their proposed route it would require 
 a span of 125 feet there over the Lal<e Shore tracks. 
 
 Q. That shuts them in, does it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; it comes inside of the right of way of 
 the Lake Shore Road ; to clear tlie right of way it 35.77 
 would take about — 
 
 Q. Without reference to clearing this right of way, 
 supposing you had that situation presented to you just as it 
 is to-day on the proposed route and you are asked to de- 
 sign a bridge to cross that, with due reference to the de- 
 velopment of the road in the future, so that the bridge 
 would be least likely to interfere with that development, 
 and also with due reference to a proper economy in the 
 construction of the bridge, just what sort of a bridge ' 
 would yon put at this proposed point of crossing with 
 ■ reference to its spans ? 
 
 A. I should make two spans tliat would interfere in 
 some measure with any tracks that might be proposed in 
 connection with the Lake Shore road. 
 
 Q. And how long would those spans be, each ? 
 
 A. About 210 feet. 
 
 By Mr. Locke: Q. You would not want to put two „K^q 
 piers on that triangle ? 
 
 A. No, sir, because if there are tracks there it would 
 interfere with it. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. What is the distance 
 between the two rights of way on that triangle there at 
 the point of the Lackawanna crossing ? 
 
 A. Sixty-nine feet on the center line of the Lacka- 
 wanna road. 
 
 Q. Now, I will ask you with reference to these 
 
646 
 
 2580 streets as the result of yonr experience what are the facts 
 as to the crossing west of the Lake Shore of Fitzgerald, 
 Katharine, and the various other streets, and that prop- 
 erty on your iron trestle, all at grade, or an embank- 
 ment, or an embankment from five to seven or eight 
 feet, what are the facts which determine the best mode 
 of crossing in reference to the surrounding property, we 
 will say it is practically a grade-crossing and the cross- 
 ing on this iron trestle that you have described, which is 
 
 2581 the most advantageous in reference to the rights of the 
 public and the property owners around there, and the 
 facts on which you base your opinion ? 
 
 A. My opinion is that the iron trestle would be most 
 advantageous to property contiguous to the route of the 
 the railway, for the reason, first, that all the traflic on 
 the streets would pass under the railroad, and secondly, 
 there would be no danger to life or property in street 
 traffic. Tlie iron trestle would further admit of conven- 
 ient crossing at a great many different points in the 
 blocks between the streets and under the railroads, with- 
 out any special grade-crossing being provided, as they 
 would have to provide grade-crossings for the low grade 
 road until the property was built up into manufactories 
 at either side of the road and they wished to cross they 
 would have to have a crossing made over it. 
 
 Q. Over the grade road ? 
 2,-ge A. Over the grade road. There would be the bridges 
 built up and everything over the track, so that they 
 could drive over the railroad, and then they would be 
 exposed at all time to great risk crossing the road. If 
 you have an iron trestle-work all that risk is avoided, 
 they pass under the road with perfect safety. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Did you not say that the 
 cross-braces, longitudinally, would interfere with the 
 road? 
 
Linville.J 647 
 
 A. Each alternate thirty feet it would interfere, and 2584 
 the next thirty feet there would be no obstruction. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. So that every thirty feet 
 there is a span of thirty teet under which teams, etc., can 
 pass underneath the trestle ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Would not the strength of 
 such a structure as that require cross-bracing in both 
 spaces ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; we build structures in height up to two 2585 
 
 or three hundred feet on this principle. We build those 
 
 piers up in sections, bracing at about every thirty feet in 
 
 length to a longitudinal structure across. If we would 
 
 put cross-bracing in between these two independent 
 
 piers in an iron structure, we could not provide for the 
 
 expansion and contraction of the iron. When they 
 
 commenced building these iron trestles, they placed the 
 
 wooden stringers between the piers and braced them in 
 
 every section, but they found that they would decay and 
 
 it would be better practice to build independent piers, 
 
 so that we only have to provide for the expansion of 
 
 about a thirty-feet span ; in high trestles make the spans 
 
 sometimes fifty or sixty, sometimes seventy feet between 
 
 these piers. My opinion is, in reference to adjoining 
 
 property, I said I preferred a trestle-work — an elevated 
 
 road or trestle-work over the low grade or embankment, 
 
 and I think I am sustained, in that view, by what I see 
 
 IT ... * /o58y 
 
 occurnng m the larger cities east. 
 
 Jiy Com. McAlpine : Q. Even where you put in these 
 cross-braces, you have in the middle a space of half the 
 whole height uninterrupted clearance ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By counsel, resuming: Q. Even as to the trestles 
 cross-braced, they are only partially obstructed, and there 
 would still be room to pass under equal to one-half the 
 entire height of the trestle ? 
 
648 
 
 258.S A. Yes, sir; if tlie trestle were twenty feet high, 
 there would be a triangnlar space ten feet high at the 
 apex, yon could not drive through there, because we 
 would place a horizontal strut at that place to prevent 
 these posts being drawn together by the diagonal braces. 
 Q. You were saying that you thought your opinion 
 of the superiority of such an elevated track over a grade 
 railway, that it was justified by what was going on in 
 other citieF ; will 3'0ii please tell us something about 
 2589 what you referred to ? 
 
 A. In older cities, as they become built up, perma- 
 nent structures, it is the tendency to either elevate their 
 roads above the streets or depress them below the streets. 
 In New York city the Hudson River Road depressed 
 their road below the streets in order to allow the streets 
 to pass (ivcr. In Philadelphia the Pennsylvania Road, 
 in building their new line into the heart of the city, 
 Broad and ^larket streets, purchased the property along 
 "°' ' one side of the street and made an elevated road ; part 
 of that is on iron columns and girders and part of it on 
 brick arches. It crosses all the streets by brick arches. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. What proportion is on brick ? 
 
 A. I think about three-quarters of it. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. How does this structure 
 which you are proposing compare with the structure of 
 the Manhattan Elevated Road at 110th street, just im-: 
 ,^. mediately north of Central Park ? 
 
 A. This is more thoroughly braced. 
 
 Q. You contemplate a more thorough bracing ? 
 
 A. Y^es, sir, and not so high. 
 
 Q. How high is that, do you remember ? 
 
 A. It is as high as sixty feet in some places. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. And this that you propose 
 here is more thoroughly braced than that sixty feet ? 
 
 A. Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it built on the same general plan as this ? 
 
Linville.J 649 
 
 A. Well, I tliiuk the plan we proposed here is better 2593 
 than that, because that is not braced clear to the bottom. . 
 The bracing in that is only a certain distance down from 
 the top, and just as yon see a table is braced by the strip 
 between the legs that passes ; round ; the lower part of 
 the legs are not braced, depend on the stiffness of the 
 legs ; here we take into effect the diagonal bracing which 
 reaches clear to the bottom of the posts. 
 
 Q. Now, how would you cross these streets that you 
 come to with this iron trestle ; what modification of struc- 3593 
 ture would it require at a street? 
 
 A. I would build a pier at each side of the street and 
 use an iron bridge over the street. 
 
 Q. An iron span over the street ? 
 
 A. Precisely the same as if I were making an em- 
 bankment, with this exception, that it would not require 
 wing walls, the pier forming the abutment. If I built 
 an embankment it would require an abutment at each 
 side of each street, sufficiently strong and with wings ^ 
 sufficiently long to sustain the embankment, prevent the 
 embankment running onto the street. In the use of iron 
 trestle-work between the streets we obviate the necessity 
 of building these large abutments at the streets and use 
 only a simple rectangular pier sufficiently large to sup- 
 port the bridge. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Rectangular pier of iron ? 
 
 A. Of stone. n^„. 
 
 3595 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. Is that sunk into the 
 ground 'i 
 
 A. Build a stone pier sunk down to a suitable foun- 
 dation. 
 
 Q. And then comes out of it the iron column ? 
 
 A. Of sufficient size to sustain the bridge ; the stringer 
 or girder leading from the iron trestle pier adjacent to 
 the stone pier at the street, will rest on this stone pier. 
 
650 
 
 3596 and then the stone piers will carry the bridge over the 
 street. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. Do the stone piers run clear up ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. Now, as to the uses to 
 which this adjacent property where it is used for dwell- 
 ings of the working classes, such as this property is, 
 which would you think would interfere less, be less in- 
 jurious to all of that property, the elevated road or the 
 359''' road going through there at grade ? 
 
 A. 1 am decidedly of the opinion that the elevated 
 road would interfere less, be less injurious to adjoining 
 property than the road at grade, low grade. 
 
 Q. That is, the entire length of this iron trestle ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you examined this estimate that was fur- 
 nished by Mr. Berrian ? 
 
 A. I have. 
 
 Q. Have you examined it critically ? 
 
 A. Carefully. 
 
 Q. Have you prepared estimates of your own ? 
 
 A. I have. 
 
 Q. Have you prepared an estimate that is a precise 
 copy of this one of Mr. Berrian's excepting as to amounts 
 and prices ? 
 
 A. The estimate that I have prepared is almost a 
 oKQQ seriatim copy of that estimate, with the exception that I 
 made slight modifications in some of the quantities, and 
 modifications in some of the prices. I have taken the 
 same method, followed the same routine in estimating 
 that he did in that estimate. 
 
 Q. I think this provides for an embankment over the 
 entire change? 
 
 A. It does, except at the bridges. 
 
 Q. And that is by means of building a trestle and 
 then filling up the trestle ? 
 
LinviUeJ 651 
 
 A. Yes, sir. " 2600 
 
 Q. And you have examined the maps and examined 
 this estimate, and yours covers the same ground, on the 
 same principle that lie has followed ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I will ask yon if you liad with you in the prepar- 
 ation of that, other engineers? 
 
 A. I had Mr. Haven, Mr. Hawks, and Mr. Grant. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if your prices tliere are prices pred- 
 icated on actual work of a similar character, or allied 
 character, being done to-day in this city ? 
 
 A. I was so advised by Mr. Haven, that he had some 
 work under contract at the prices here stated. 
 
 Q. Now, will you state to us what your estimate is 
 of this work that Mr. Berrian makes out $490,000? 
 
 A. My estimate for the same work foots up $341,- 
 990.68. 
 
 Q. That is $150,000 less than his estimate ? 
 
 A T. .- Ti 3602 
 
 A. rractically. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. To what extent are those prices 
 predicated upon the information which you had from Mr. 
 Haven ? 
 
 A. The prices for masonry, for embankments, for 
 timbers, and piling, is based on information obtained 
 fronj Mr. Haven and Mr. Hawks, and from computations 
 that I made from the information that they furnished as 
 to the elements which entered into those prices. 2603 
 
 Q. Now, discarding or abandoning line A from 
 what is called the main line of the Lackawanna up to 
 where it unites with line J3 and becomes a single line 
 abandoning that, and then what would be your estimate? 
 
 A. The estimate of route with line A abandoned 
 east of its intersection with line B, the cost of the low 
 grade line, the Lackawanna being deducted, is $222,- 
 791,50. 
 
652 
 
 2604 Q. With the hne B out, did you make any esti- 
 mate of that ? 
 
 A. We abandon hne A and use line B. 
 
 Q. Then have you one using line .4, abandoning 
 line^? 
 
 A. No, sir, we have line A up to the point where 
 jt intersects line B, that is $174,007.00. 
 
 Q. Then line B is how much ? 
 
 A. $48,784.50; I have hne A to the intersection 
 
 2605 of line B, then B added on, so that you have the 
 two lines independent. 
 
 By Mr. Looke : Q. How much ? 
 
 A. The two lines independent, line A, $293,206.18. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming: Q. What is that, the en- 
 tire line? 
 
 A. The entire line through, line B is $48,784.50, 
 the aggregate of those is $341,990.68. 
 
 Q. Now, then, line A at the intersection with hne B ? 
 
 2606 A_ That is §174,007.00. 
 
 Q. And using line B it would make ? 
 
 A. $222,791.50. 
 
 By Jlr. Locke : Q. That is, in every instance deduct- 
 ing the cost of lines A and B at low grade? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, at all instances deducting the low grade 
 lines. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. Does this estimate 
 
 n„^~ that you have given include any iron trestle ? 
 2007 J to J 
 
 A. There is about 220 feet of iron trestle between 
 the Lake Shore and the Erie tracks. 
 . Q. Had Mr. Berrian that in his? 
 
 A. No, sir, I struck out the embankment in that por- 
 tion of Mr. Berrian's estimate, and substituted iron 
 trestle. 
 
 Q. Have you also prepared an estimate of this entire 
 line, one iron trestle with the bridges ? 
 
 A. I have. 
 
Linville.J 663 
 
 Q. Will you please tell us what you could get an en- 2608 
 tire iron trestle over the entire distuiice for, on the basis 
 that you have been mentioning? 
 
 A. I previously explained how I proposed building 
 this line on iron trestle work, perhaps I had better re- 
 peat thatj to say that we use iron bridges over Buffalo 
 Creek, and over the streets, and over the railroad cross- 
 ings, the same as in the other estimates ; iron trestle- 
 works between ; total cost of line ^1 is |314,309.00, 
 line B $77,578.00, total ot entire altered route, $391,- 2609 
 887.00, from which is to be deducted lines ^-1 and 
 B on Lackawanna location, $26,987.00, leaving the 
 grand total of increased cost of elevated lines A and 
 -5 $364, 900.00 ; I would state here that I think it is, 
 if anything, a little too high, I have allowed, I think, 
 a very ample amount for the iron trestle-work and iron 
 bridges, this includes all the bridges, piers and everything. 
 
 Q. The entire work ? 
 
 A. The entire work, to complete the road, except the 
 cross-ties and rails, which have been left out of all the 
 calculation. 
 
 Q. What would be the total cost on this basis, of a 
 complete iron trestle and bridges, of the line with line 
 A abandoned east of its intersection with line B ? 
 
 A. The total of line A west of its intersection 
 with line B is $176,680.00; at line B $77,578.00, 
 which makes a total of $254,258.00, from which is to be „„., 
 deducted the proportion of low grade line, $14,258.00, 
 leaving the total cost $240,000.00. 
 
 Q. Would it make any particular difference in the 
 figures that you have given, to have this embankment 
 built up to the west side of the Lake Shore railroad and 
 the bridges as you have described, and then, from that 
 point on, resuming the grade line of the Lackawanna, an 
 iron trestle, would that make any material difference, 
 beginning east, coming along with the embankment, 
 
654 
 
 2612 until you get across the Lake Shore and Erie crossing, 
 and then going on with an iron trestle? 
 
 A. The construction of that portion of the line with 
 iron trestles instead of embankments, would cost about 
 ten thousand dollars more than with embankments, ac- 
 cording to these estimates ; the iron trestle estimate is a 
 little higher than the embankment trestle, but I think I 
 have the iron trestle estimated a little high. 
 
 Q. Do your quantities differ from Mr. Barrian's to 
 
 2613 any extent ? 
 
 A. Very slightly ; I think Mr. Barrian's quaTitities of 
 masonry are slightly in excess at some points; I have not 
 modified those ; I have slightly modified the quaujity of 
 piling, pile-trestle ; I have taken about the same quantity 
 of bridging; I make a little more lumber for making the 
 trestles, but 1 didn't consider that, because I thought the 
 excess of inasonry would about compensate the defieency 
 in number; practically taken the same quantities; I 
 "''^^ have increased the price of the iron bridges; I endeav- 
 ored to arrive at what was, in my judgment, from the 
 best information I could obtain the prices at which the 
 work could be done ; 1 have reduced the cost, the price 
 of an embankment, considerably. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. So that it now depends on 
 
 whether Mr. Hawks and Mr. Haven are right on the 
 
 prices, or Mr. Barrian ? 
 
 A. My estimate is predicated on parts of it as to their 
 2615 ,. , 
 
 estimates. v 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Wherever your plans of con- 
 struction agree there, your (quantities naturally agree 
 with Mr. Haven's? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The chief difference is where you change the plans 
 of construction ? 
 
 A. There I have substituted iron trestle for an em- 
 bankment, then I have deducted the embankment. 
 
Linville.J 655 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. I understood yon to say you had 2616 
 taken the same plan ? 
 
 A. I have changed the plan on the space between 
 the Lake Shore and Erie tracks, that is the only change, 
 a slight change in length of spans at some of the bridges. 
 
 By Com. Mc Alpine: Q. But you change the plan 
 entirely, west of the Erie and Lake shore crossing? 
 
 A. In order to avoid confusion, in the comparison of 
 Mr. Barrian's estimate, I first have taken his plan with 
 the exception only of having to substitute 220 feet in 2617 
 length of iron trestle work, then I have made an entirely 
 new estimate based on iron trestle-work. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming: Q. Now, take this esti- 
 mate that you have made of an iron trestle all the way 
 through, is tliat based on your own knowledge and expe- 
 rience as a bridge designer and builder ? 
 
 A. Entirely. _ 
 
 Q. And the iron part of the estimate, that corre- 
 sponds with Mr. Barrian's, is also based on your own ^^^^ 
 knowledge of that ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; and I will say 'further as to the prices of 
 the iron bridges, that I compared notes witli Mr. Hilton, 
 who is at present building iron bridges, and he is familiar 
 with present prices, he agreed with me. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Do you include the recent 
 increased price of iron in two or three weeks ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, 1 took the present price of iron. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming: Q. And since your last 
 testimony, and on reflection, your estimates are all based 
 on our profile as it is on the original map ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have not made any allowance for the amended 
 profile that we have put in ? 
 
 A. None, whatever. 
 
 Q. And you think if our amended proiile were taken, 
 that that would reduce the expense about how much ? 
 
656 
 
 2020 A. I haven't estimated that. 
 
 Q. But you can tell ns about ? 
 
 A. I presume it would make a difference of five thou- 
 sand dollars ; it would take something off" from the base 
 of the embankment; we reduce the heights of the ma- 
 sonry slightly; it would reduce the heights of the iron 
 trestle-work slightly. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say bsfore, three; is it from 
 three to five thousand dollars, or in 'that neighborhood ? 
 a621 A. I have made no exact estimate; I should say be- 
 tween three and five thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. You state those to be correct estimates, and fair 
 estimates? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I believe them to be correct ; I have 
 checked the figures and believe them to be fair estimates. 
 
 Q. I tliink you said they were liberal estimates? 
 
 A. 1 think they are liberal estimates, and the iron 
 trestle estimate, I know is liberal. 
 3622 Q. Taking the estimate that you have made that cor- 
 lesponds with Jlr. Barrian's, where are the great difler- 
 ence? 
 
 a\. Jlr. Barrian estimates excavation and embank- 
 ment, which should be embankment at forty cents per 
 cubic yard ; the material in embankment I have esti- 
 mated at twenty-five cents; Mr. Barrian has estimated it 
 at forty cents, the masonry for the piers and abutments 
 I have averaged at eight dollars a cubic yard ; Mr. Bar- 
 rian has it eleven dollars, the small piers under the iron 
 trestles I have estimated ten dollars a cubic yard, because 
 they are very small, and had a very small cap ; Mr. Bar- 
 rian has no item of iron piers under trestles, his price is 
 eleven dollars ; I have taken the whole masonry at an 
 average of eight dollars a cubic yard, piling, I have 
 allowed thirty cents per cubic yard, which is the same as 
 ilr. Barrian ; for timber in the work, I have allowed 
 thirty dollars a thousand, Mr. Barrian has it forty dollars 
 
Linville.J 667 
 
 per thousand ; for fifty-five foot span bridge I liave taken 3624 
 sixty dollars per lineal foot, which is thirty-three hun- 
 dred dollars, he gives the rate at forty-four hundred dol- 
 lars. 
 
 Q. That is a small difference, give us the big dif- 
 ferences ? 
 
 A. One hundred and five-foot span bridge, my price 
 is $9,660, his is $10,500 ; his prices are higher for short 
 spans and are lower for long spans than mine. 
 
 Q. Where are the great differences that come in the ^635 
 masonry ? 
 
 A. In the cost of the masonry, and the cost of em- 
 bankment, and the cost for timber. 
 
 Q. How' much would these items of Mr. Barrian's 
 aggregate, at a rough guess ? 
 
 A. I could tell you, the principal difference is in the 
 masonry, the embankment prices and the prices for white 
 pine timber. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. Will you state iu that connec- ^^^^ 
 tion, as to those prices, do you rely as to them upon the 
 judgment of these other gentlemen, or do you give your 
 own judgment? 
 
 A. In reference to masonry I ascertained the price of 
 stone and I formed my own estimate as to the work, lay- 
 ing up the cost of cement, etc. ; by which I got at the 
 cross-sum per cubic yard ; I ascertained the price they 
 were contracting for timber at the present; my own „^„ 
 judgment enabled me to say how much should be al- 
 lowed for putting the timber in the work ; I added that 
 to the price of timber which gave me twenty dollars a 
 thousand. 
 
 Q. How about the embankment, they gave you what 
 data? 
 
 A. We estimated that we could obtain the material 
 for embankment at a distance not exceeding fifteen miles 
 from the city; I took the cost of hauling that embank- 
 
658 
 
 2628 ment, loading and dumping it, and from that I ascer- 
 tained the price of the embankment. 
 
 By Com. Clark: Q. That is what you meant bj' re- 
 lying upon their information as to prices, as you have 
 stated ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; only in part upon their information. 
 
 By Mr. McAlpine : Q. How much does a yard of 
 embankment weigh ? 
 
 A. Six yards of it, which makes a car-load, would 
 2029 weigh about nine tons, yoTi hauled that fifteen miles and 
 it would cost about fourteen cents, going about thirty 
 miles it would cost about twenty-eight cents. 
 
 Q. The difference between your price and Jlr. Bar- 
 rian's for the embankment is wholly made up in the 
 haul ? 
 
 A. Not entirely, within four or five cents a yaid. 
 
 Q. You make fourteen cents difference in the haulins, 
 your price is thirty and ilr. Berrian's is forty-five ? 
 4b-i0 ^ Two fourteens would be twenty-eiglit, and eight 
 for loading would be thirty-six, which would leave four 
 cents more for dumping, in my estimate I have between 
 one and two cents. 
 
 Q. Your aggregate price is twenty-five cents ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And Mr. Bei-rian's forty cents? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And yonr estimate of the price of hauling, you 
 say your estimate would have been if you had to go 
 thirty miles, it would have been fourteen cents more, so 
 you have made it, your whole estimate price and Mr. 
 Berrian's within one cent ? 
 
 A. I have ; I have added that ; a little to my esti- 
 mated price of loading and dumping, to make up twenty- 
 five cents in the first place. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn, resuming : Q. Just give us the items 
 you get in your twenty-five cents ? 
 
Linville xj 659 
 
 A, I got fourteen cents for hauling ; I allowed eight 2632 
 cents for loading, that is twenty-two, and then I esti- 
 mated it would take about one or two cents to dump 
 it, and then I make it in round numbers, 1 increase that 
 to twenty-five cents, I add one cent per yard. 
 
 Q. That leaves you two for dumping ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which is a very liberal allowance for dumping ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 2633 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. How much do you say you allow for dumping ? 
 
 A. I just stated I allowed two cents a yard, and I 
 had a cent to spare which I threw in. 
 
 Q. How mucti per mile, per yard, do you charge for 
 the hauling? 
 
 A. Take six-tenths of a cent per ton, per mile, it 
 figures up thirteen and six-tenths cents per yard for haul- 
 ing fifteen miles. ^634 
 
 Q. How far did you calculate the filling was going 
 to be hauled ? 
 
 A. Fifteen m'iles ; 1 based that upon information ob- 
 tained from Mr. Haven. 
 
 Q. Suppose it were to bo hauled thirty miles, suppose 
 you had to go thirty miles to get to some point on the 
 Lackawanna road where it could be found, owing to the 
 lav of the land throuarh which the road runs, and the 
 class of material required for filling, how much would 
 you add to your estimate? 
 
 A. I would have to double the price for hauling. 
 
 Q. That would be about fifteen cents more? 
 
 A. It figures out — it don't cost over three-tenths of 
 a cent per mile to haul it, I estimate it six-tenths of a 
 cent to haul it. 
 
 Q. You never have done any earth filling in this part 
 of the country ? 
 
660 
 
 3636 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How near to this point of the country have you 
 done any earth filling ? 
 
 A. I have done some in Pennsylvania. 
 
 Q. Whereabouts in Pennsylvania ? 
 
 A. On the building of the Westchester and Piiila- 
 delphia Railroad. 
 
 Q. Where is that ? 
 
 A. That runs from Westchester to Philadelphia on 
 
 3637 which there are high embankments. 
 
 Q. That is about four hundred miles from here? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What kind of material do you figure on eight 
 cents per yard ? 
 
 A. I understood the material was sand and gravel, 
 material easily excavated. 
 
 Q. How much would you add, provided it were clay 
 and hard-pan ? 
 ^^^^ A. I would have to add something according to the 
 proportion of the quality of the material. 
 
 Q. How much would you add for good ordinary stiff 
 clay, such as we have around here ? 
 
 A. I think you could load it for eight cents a yard. 
 
 Q. You don't allow anything for the cost of material 
 in that figure ? 
 
 A. I inquired as to that and was advised by Mr. 
 
 , Haven that any quantity of land could be purchased 
 
 2639 . . J i. J r 
 
 within that distance of Bu.fFalo not exceeding one 
 hundred dollars an acre ; it would not take a very large 
 number of acres to furnish the material. 
 
 Q. Do you add that in ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I thought we had margin enough in 
 other allowances I made, where I thought those quanti- 
 ties were in excess. 
 
 Q. You spoke of your iron trestles — iron trestles are 
 rather a hobby of yours, are they not ? 
 
Linville x] 661 
 
 A. No, sir ; not at all. 3640 
 
 Q. They are not a favorite structure of yours? 
 
 A. I have built a great many iron ti-estles and I have 
 built a great many iron bridges. 
 
 Q. Do you think iron trestles are usually put in by 
 engineers as permanent structures where they can be 
 avoided 'i 
 
 A. They are put in as permanent structures wher- 
 ever their use is indicated as being more economical than 
 high embankments. > 2641 
 
 Q. Are thej ever put in except in places where the 
 embankment cannot be well made to stand ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Frequently ? 
 
 A. Very frequently. 
 
 Q. And without regard to the presence of material 
 for an earthen embankment ? 
 
 A. An engineer is generally governed by the esti- 
 mates of cost ; if he finds an iron viaduct made with ^^'^■^ 
 these iron trestles it will cost less than building an em- 
 bankment where the embankment is very high, he will 
 adopt iron trestles if he has as good a structure. 
 
 Q. Is an iron trestle as good a structure for a railroad 
 trestle as an earthen embankment — is it not subject to 
 contraction and expansion, and all that kind of thing? 
 
 A. All provision is made for the expansion and con- 
 traction ; there is no danger whiatever. 
 
 Q. Doesn't one require more care than the other? 
 
 A. I think not if tlie iron trestle is properly con- 
 structed. 
 
 Q. You think it is as permanent as an earthen struc- 
 ture ? 
 
 A. No ; I don't think it is. 
 
 Q. What are the results of the derailment of a car 
 upon a train ? 
 
662 
 
 2644 A. The result would be about the same as on an em- 
 bankment. 
 
 Q. You think if you run a car off the embankment 
 on an earthen embankment, do joa think it would throw 
 the embankment down as quick as a trestle? 
 
 A. No, I think this : I think a train would run off 
 the iron trestle, and that the train would go overboard ; 
 if it run over an embankment it would go overboard ; 
 the iiesult would be the same in both cases. 
 
 2645 Q. You do not think there would be any more prob- 
 able harm ? 
 
 A. It is not very probable that the trestle would be 
 injured. 
 
 Q. It would not be thrown down ? 
 
 A. No; there is not force enough. 
 
 Q. There is no trouble about iron bridges in that re- 
 gard, is there ? 
 
 A. There is this difference, which I will explain. If 
 
 ^"* ■ an iron bridge is a deck bridge, and a train on top, and 
 
 the flooring system is properly made, the train may run 
 
 off the track without injuring the iron bridge at all ; I 
 
 have known many such instances. 
 
 Q. Have you known an instance where an iron bridge 
 was thrown down by a train ? 
 
 A. I have known several; if tlie train run off a 
 deck bridge it would probably go over the bridge with- 
 out injuring the deck, where the floor system is prop- 
 erly constructed ; if the train run off an iron trestle 
 work properly constructed, the result would be the 
 same, the train would go over probably without in- 
 juring it. 
 
 Q. You have been over the Lake Shore and Michi- 
 gan Southern Railway? 
 
 A. No, sir, I have not, but I am familiar with the 
 accident at Ashtabula, which I suppose you refer to. 
 
 Q. No, I do not; I am referring to the general char- 
 
Linville x] 663 
 
 after of the structures on that road ; jou call that a first- 2648 
 class road ? 
 
 A. It is called that by reputation. 
 
 Q. Aren't there earthen embankments? Don't they 
 cross all their large gullies with earthen embankments, 
 with stone culverts ? 
 
 A. I have no information in regard to that. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any important trestles on the 
 New York Central ? 
 
 A. I am not familiar with that road. 2649 
 
 Q. Do you know of any important iron trestles on 
 the Erie Railway ? 
 
 A. I know of one. 
 
 Q. Where? 
 
 A. I don't know exactlj' what they call it. 
 
 Q. Portage ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Portage is a bridge ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, but it is built on the principle of an iron ^°°*^ 
 trestle-work. 
 
 Q. It is impossible to make a fill there ? 
 
 A. It is impossible; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There is a stream of water underneath ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The Genesee Eiver? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I will state in explanation of this ; on 
 the Cincinnati Southern Railway 
 
 Q. Just answer my questions. I am asking you 
 specific questions. Is it possible, or is it practicable to 
 fill any part of the bed of the Genesee River with an 
 earthen embankment where the Portage bridge is? 
 
 A. 1 never have examined that locality. 
 
 Q. Do you know how high that is ? 
 
 A. I don't remember the exact height. 
 
 Q. Would it be practicable to make an earthen em- 
 bankment 232 feet high ? 
 
664 
 
 2053 Objected to by Mr. Milburn. 
 
 Objection overruled. 
 
 A. It is practicable. 
 
 Q. How wide would be its base ? 
 
 A. Seven hundred and twenty-two feet. 
 
 Q. Do j'ou know of another iron trestle on the Erie 
 road except that at Portage ? 
 
 A. I do not; the Erie road was constructed before 
 they commenced building iron trestles. 
 2653 Q. Where did you take your price for masony in 
 your estimate there ? 
 
 A. Mr. Haven stated that he was having work done 
 at that price. 
 
 Q. Are these papers in your handwriting ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have yon added up anything there yourself? 
 
 A. I have checked all the additions. 
 
 Q. Whose handwriting are those estimates in ? 
 " ' A. Some were copied by Mr. Grant, and some by 
 Mr. Hawks. I think that is Mr. Grant's handwi'iting. 
 
 Q. And the other Mr. Hawks' ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you compared the copies with the original ? 
 
 A. These estimates 
 
 Q. I ask you have you compared the copies with 
 
 the original ? 
 
 ,,... A. I have. 
 265o 
 
 Re-direct exami?iatioti, by Mr. Milburn : 
 
 Q. Counsel having asked you about trestles on all 
 the railroads that yon don't know anything about, I will 
 ask you about the iron trestles on the railroads that you 
 do know something about ? 
 
 A. I haven't a great many in my immediate reach. 
 
 Q. On the railroads which you know of? 
 
 A. On the Cincinnati Southern Railway there are 
 
Hawks.J 665 
 
 quite a large iininber of irou trestles that we built, the 365G 
 Keystone Bridge Compauy built five or six very long 
 viaducts. 
 
 Q. The thing is this, the only materiality of the 
 whole evidence is, is it a practical thing, and a thing in 
 use in railroad construction ? 
 
 A. It is on a short line from New Haven to Middle- 
 town, there are twenty-seven high iron trestle viaducts, 
 and on the Cincinnati and Louisville road. 
 
 Q. On these trestles that you have mentioned as the 3657 
 iron.structures, is there a possibility of a doubt that it is 
 entirely practicable as to all railroad construction ? 
 
 A. No doubt whatever as to its firmness and safety. 
 
 By Mr. McAlpine : Q. When you speak of the irou 
 trestles as being permanent woi-k, how long do you count 
 upon their lasting with an extra degree of repairs before 
 it would be necessary to rebuild them ? 
 
 A. I stated before that I didn't suppose any of us 
 would live long enough to notice the deterioration of 
 the structure if properly cared for. 
 
 Mr. Milburn : I oifer in evidence all of the estimates 
 referred to by Mr. Linville in his testimony. 
 
 Estimates received in evidence and marked, " Peti- 
 tioners' Exhibits 10, 11, 12 and 13." 
 
 James D. Hawks, recalled for the petitioners and ex- 
 amined by Mr. McMillan, testified as follows : 
 
 •^ 2659 
 
 Q. You have been present and heard the testimony 
 of Mr. Linville upon the estimates made by Mr. Barriau 
 and also those presented and explained by himself? 
 
 A. I have. 
 
 Q. Did you assist in making up tlie estimates pre- 
 sented by Mr. Linville ? 
 
 A. I did, to some extent. 
 
 Q. Have you examined those estimates yourself since 
 they have been made up ? 
 
666 
 
 2G60 A. I have. 
 
 Q. What do yon say as to the correctness and fair- 
 ness of the estimate presented by ilr. Linville as to tliis 
 over-head crossing ? 
 
 A. I vconld state in order to sift these estimates out 
 that the estimate marked " Exhibit 13 " and the esti- 
 mate marked "Exhibit 12," which refer to iron work, 
 1 had nothing to do with. 
 
 Q. You had nothing to do with those ? 
 2G61 A. No, sir; the estimate marked " Exiiibit 11 " and 
 the estimate marked "Exhibit 10" were the two esti- 
 mates that I helped make up. 
 
 Q. Did you also examine Mr. Barrian's estimate 
 marked " Exhibit 7 " ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you had that before you at the time these 
 estimates were made, didn't you? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, we did. 
 
 Q. You heard ilr. Linville's testimony in regard to 
 the expense of drawing and filling ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What expense would you fix as a reasonable 
 price for drawing that distance, say fifteen or thirty 
 miles ? 
 
 A. We fixed the price at twenty-five cents a cubic 
 
 yard, and I would state here that I think that is perhaps 
 
 - ,„ too high, for the roiison that this estimate provides for a 
 266o 
 
 trestle-work on which to run their trains, and I think 
 
 that the present value of the embankment which they 
 
 are to make during the next six or eight years is not 
 
 twentj'-five cents a j^ai'd. 
 
 Q. Explain how during intervals where there are lulls 
 in the business it could bo perfected. 
 
 A. There are two reasons for that : one is, having a 
 trestle which is good for eisht or ten veurs it sives the 
 Lackawanna Company that length of time to make their 
 
Hawks.J 667 
 
 filling, and it allows them an opportunity to mal^e it with 266-1: 
 working trains when the trains are not busy on the other 
 portions of tlie road, so they can work their spare tiune 
 on an embankment of this kind without materially inter- 
 fering with other work. It allows them to work their 
 trains and men to better advantage than though they 
 were compelled to make the embankment at the present 
 time. They would have the interest on the present 
 money, which we have figured, during that time. 
 
 Q. And by that means they would be enabled to find 3665 
 employment for their men and working trains when they 
 otherwise would be idle? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; there is a decided advantage in running- 
 construction trains, to i)e able to have them busy all the 
 time. There are odd times on the raili'oad after it is 
 constructed, sometimes when there is- a great deal of busi- 
 ness for construction trains, and other times when it is 
 light, and it is an advantage to hold the organization and 
 hold the men so as to keep the gangs full and find work ■^"Ob 
 for them at odd times. 
 
 Q. Have you had considerable experience in the mat- 
 ter of embankments in filling in cuts? 
 
 A. It is part of my duties as assistant engineer on 
 the Lake Shore road to make estimates in cases where 
 we are doing filling, say from Cleveland to Buffalo. All 
 that is done by trains or done by teams, and then in ad- 
 dition to that I iiave derived- considerable information ,,,.„„ 
 
 -406' 
 from other roads now being constructed as to what they 
 
 were paying for filling. 
 
 Q. As to the embankments on the Lake Shore road, 
 they were constructed before the days of iron trestles 
 very largely ? 
 
 A. Most of the large embankments on the Lake Shore 
 road were constructed before iron trestles were in gen- 
 eral use, or in fact in use at all. There was no such 
 thing. The New York, Chicago and St. Louis Road, 
 
668 
 
 26G8 which ia in process of construction now alongside of the 
 Lake Shore road, in crossing the same gullies, are using 
 largely iron trestles in preference to embankments. 
 
 Q. Right alongside of where the Lake Shore had 
 their embankments? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; over the same streams. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to the expense of drawing 
 this filling ? 
 
 A. I should figure that at about lialf a cent a ton a 
 2669 mile, which figure would be derived from experience on 
 the Lake Shore road only. 
 
 Q. That is what it would actually cost you ? 
 
 A. That is what our freiglit costs us per mile ; in figur- 
 ing freight for our own material that we use in construc- 
 tion in getting at the cost that the work is to be in addi- 
 tion to the cost of material we add half a cent per mile a 
 ton for freight. 
 
 Q. For thirty miles that would be fifteen cents? 
 ^670 \ Yor thirty miles, that would be fifteen cents a 
 ton. 
 
 Q. Twent}--two cents a yard ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; figuring a yard of eartii would weigh a 
 ton and a half. 
 
 Q. You heard Mr. Berrian testify in regard to the 
 change which lie suggested could be made in the Lake 
 Shore yard, or at or near this crossing, did you? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You may explain what, if any objections there are, 
 to making the change suggested by Mr. Berrian ? 
 
 A. As I understand his proposed change of the Lake 
 Shore yard it was to do the switching that is now being 
 done over the Erie crossing, at the north end of the yard, 
 and putting in a system of connecting tracks coming in 
 parallel with the Erie tracks. 
 
 Q. Coming in parallel with the Erie tracks where, in 
 what direction ? 
 
 3671 
 
Hawks.J 669 
 
 A. North of Elk street. 3672 
 
 Q. East of the transfer-house? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; he made several propositions as being 
 indicated on this map iu lead pencil line crossed fre- 
 quently by short pencil lines and curves, which would 
 meet these requirements to connect the north end of the 
 yard, as we propose, with trucks parallel with the Erie 
 track north of Elk street, crossing Elk street at the Ab- 
 bott road and then Elk street again. The objections 
 to a scheme of that kind would be, while it would take ^'^^'''^ 
 the switching from the throat of the yard at the Erie 
 crossing, it would put the switching in a worse place for 
 the Lake Shore to handle than it is at the Erie crossing; 
 it puts it into the north end of the yard close to our coal 
 docks and engine houses, where the engines go in and 
 out of the house and into the coal docks, and would very 
 much complicate this system of tracks. When the 
 switching would be done over Perry street and Scott 
 street and Fulton street which is now done down at the 
 Erie crossing without any street crossing. In addition 
 to that, trains coming in here have on the front end of 
 the train, they have the through cars destined for East 
 Buffalo. The cars that are to be switched out, on the 
 back end of the train, the through cars are cut off and go 
 to East Buffalo. If the switching was done in the north 
 end through cars would have to be on the south end and 
 would have to wait there until the switching is done on ....^^ 
 the forward end of the train, and then be taken to East 
 Buffalo. 
 
 Q. What objection is there to waiting, if any ? 
 
 A. Simply to increasing the blockade of the yard ; it 
 increases the block which already exists in the yard, and 
 delays their business so much. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. If such a train comes in 
 could you not cut loose the East Buffalo cars and go on 
 with them immediately ? 
 
670 
 
 •2676 A. X<>, sir; his snggt'stion was to have the cars at 
 the north end of the yaid towards the engine-house; 
 that switching would necessitate the running of numer- 
 ous tracks around parallel to this track, done hy the 
 cross lead pencil line ; that track is only about a thou- 
 sand feet long; that we call number one track; every 
 succeeding track that conit's out of that is decreaseil ; 
 allowing for a switch at each end it wouhl decrease 
 the available length of each one of tliese tracks by 
 
 "2C77 double the length uf the switrh to the frog, and from 
 the frog to the clearing point beyond, which would re- 
 duce the length of each ti'ack by about 250 feet; so Tium- 
 ber one track would be one thousand feet long, and 
 would hold thirty cars ; number three would be five 
 hundred tl-et long and hold, say, eighteen cars ; num- 
 ber four would l>c 2.30 feet long and would hold eight 
 cars ; so the fourth track would oidy hold four cars, and 
 the fifth track, if it is pussilile to run any track there, 
 
 " ' would not hold any, and the aggregate of these tracks 
 with that system would nut begin to hofd the cars neces- 
 sary ; with that system it would be impossible for the 
 Lake Shore to get permission from the city to have any 
 more tracks there, as Elk street is the thoroughfare for 
 all business from the surrounding country there ; these 
 tracks would run parallel and in the Abbott road. 
 
 Q. They would run longitudinally in the Abbott 
 
 ■^•■79 '"^^^^^ 
 
 A. les, sir, and would cross Elk street; those would 
 
 make a large amount of right-of-way necessary in here, 
 
 north of Elk street, in order to do the transfer business 
 
 at that point. 
 
 Q. How could you stand cars on the Abbott road 
 and Elk street ? 
 
 A. It would be impossible to do anything of that 
 kind ; we have the Elk street crossing now ; two min- 
 utes' detention at Elk street and there is a collection of 
 
Hawks.] 671 
 
 teams on each side very impatient to cross; if there is a 3680 
 prospect that a team is to stand two or three minutes at 
 the crossing, that train is cut; that is a verj' important 
 thoroughfare, Elk street is ; Fulton street, Perry street 
 and Scott street are not through streets, but the Abbott 
 road and Elk street are through streets leading into the 
 country ; I have used a radius here of about nine hun- 
 dred feet which would be about a seven-degree curve or 
 a little over, an objectionable radius to operate cars on, 
 switcliing about the yard; just strike out that part of 3681 
 the answer, Mr. Stenographer, I have used a radius of 
 450 feet, I would say about a thirteen degree curve, 
 which is an objectionable curve to do switching on ; so 
 1 think that scheme, in ray estimation, would be imprac- 
 ticable; in the re-arrangement of the old yai'd it re- 
 quires very much time and very much study, and a con- 
 sultation between the officers of tlie two roads; the 
 existing circumstances have to be taken into considera- 
 tion, and it is not the work of a day nor a week nor a '^""'^ 
 month to re-arrange an existing yard to the best advan- 
 tage. 
 
 Q. Have you any experience, especially in that direc- 
 tion, of the re-arrangement of yards? if so, state where. 
 
 A. I have had considerable experience in re-arrang- 
 ing existing yards or old yards in order to get increased 
 business, and in order to get better facilities for doing 
 
 work; 1 have recently re-arranged the Cleveland yards 
 
 3083 
 at Cleveland, Ohio, and that re-arrangement was de- 
 
 erniined upon after some years of study and conference 
 
 between the officers of the Lake Shore Road and the 
 
 Cleveland and Pittsburgh Road ; after the drawing of 
 
 quite a number of different plans by each company, and 
 
 these plans were altei'ed and modified at the suggestion 
 
 of the different ofiSoers ; there is another objection that 
 
 is very difficult to prevent interfering with the business 
 
Cu2 
 
 ■v'084 of the old yard while building the new yard and con- 
 necting with the old system. 
 
 Cross examhiation, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Would it make any difference in the yards pro- 
 vided you changed the making up of your trains before 
 they came to Buffalo '? 
 
 A. I don't nnderstand that we could make up our 
 trains in any different shape for doing onr business than 
 2685 we do at present. 
 
 Q. Is there any practical difficulty in putting the 
 east-bound ciirs at the rear of the train i 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any practical difficulty if the switch is 
 put on this curve that is marked here in having a long 
 switch run back parallel with the existing transfer- 
 bouse ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 '•''^*' Q. You could not get across ? 
 
 A. Xo, sir; it would make a complication about the 
 crossings here, and I do not think it would be practica- 
 ble as a working arrangement. 
 
 Q. Couldn't you bring your cars, starting on Fidton 
 street, on a switch down alongside by the Erie road, and 
 then run them by on the existing tracks, by the transfer- 
 house ' 
 
 A. Supposing it would take one track to do that 
 
 ^'■'- ' Q. Couldn't you do that ? 
 
 A. How many tracks? 
 
 Q. Couldn't you do that, I ask you? 
 
 A. Outside of the question of obtaining for using the 
 streets from the city it could be done, but to a decided 
 disadvantage, and would not be a practical working 
 arrangement. 
 
 Q. I understand you now to say your east-bound cars 
 
Hawks xj 673 
 
 via the New York Central are put at the head of your 2688 
 trains ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Those are not switched backwards and forwards ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Those go to East Buffalo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't you testify when you were on the cars be- 
 fore that your east-bound cars by the Central came all 
 mixed up with your trains? 3689 
 
 A. I don't think I did. 
 
 Q. And you had to pull the east-bound cars and 
 everything else backwards and forth over the Erie 
 crossing ? 
 
 A. I think I testified that we had to pull everything 
 back and forth there but the East Buffalo cars. 
 
 Q. All that you have to put over the Erie crossing, 
 
 then, is the cars that go over the Erie road ? 
 
 AM- 3690 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You don't have to pull the cars that are destined 
 over the New York Central crossing over the Erie 
 crossing? 
 
 A. I don't understand that we pull the New York 
 Central cars over that crossing. 
 
 Q. So you think there would be no re-arrangement 
 of tracks in'that yard? 
 
 A. I don't state that, exactly. ^„^^ 
 
 Q. You think there could, then ? 
 
 A. I should only be able to answer that question 
 after a more thorough study of the situation ; what I 
 say, is 
 
 Q. You have not considered the question as to what 
 changes are feasible, have you ? 
 
 A. I have not had any opportunity to do that. 
 
 Q. And you are not willing to say that no changes 
 
674 
 
 3693 are feasible in that yard, with your existing property, are 
 feasible ? 
 
 A. No changes that would help the matter of switch- 
 ing over the Erie crossing or from my standpoint feasi- 
 ble with the land that we already own. 
 
 Re-direct examination, by Mr. McMillan : 
 
 Q. This bridge over the Buffalo Creek is not a swing- 
 bridge ? 
 3693 A. No, sir. 
 
 William A. Haven, recalled for the petitioners and 
 examined by Mr. McMillan, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Have you examined these estimates that have 
 been presented here by Mr. Linville? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you also take part in making up of certain of 
 aanA those estimates? 
 
 A. I took no part in making up the quantities; I 
 assisted Mr. Linville in certain data as to getting prices. 
 
 Q. I will ask if those were the estimates marked 
 " Exhibits 10 and 11 " which you assisted in, the 
 embankment work, and all that ? 
 
 A. The embankment, timber and masonry. 
 
 Q. But not the iron ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 3595 Q. The Erie Eailway is doing a good deal of con- 
 structing just at the present time, is it not ? 
 
 A. It is. 
 
 Q. And has been for some time past ? 
 
 A. For the last two years. 
 
 Q. What is your construction account per month at 
 the present time under your supervision and charge? 
 
 A. The last two months it was about sixty-six thou- 
 sand dollars. 
 
 Q. Sixty-six thousand dollars a mouth ? 
 
Haven.J 675 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 2696 
 
 Q. It runs on an avprage at what? 
 A. During this year it will average about sijfty thou- 
 sand until about July and August, and then it will gradu- 
 ally reduce, to November and the first of December, to 
 nothing. 
 
 Q. That work that is being done is what sort of 
 work? 
 
 A. It is construction of railroads, new construction. 
 
 Q. I mean embankment work ? 3697 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And filling ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; masonry and timber work. 
 
 Q. Is it the same class of work that is contained in 
 this estimate ? 
 
 A. With the exception of the iron tregtle. 
 
 Q. And is that the sort of work you are passing upon 
 every month? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it from your experience of prices in this 
 work of your own that you reached the prices which are 
 contained in this estimate? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to those prices? 
 
 A. They are very fair prices. 
 
 Q. That is the twenty-five cents for filling ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, to be done in the way that Mr. Barrian 
 stated in his testimony yesterday, m the course of seven 
 or eight years. 
 
 Q. To have the trestle built and then to do their 
 filling? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From this experience, you say the prices that we 
 give there are *U fair prices, except the iron work? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; prices for which this work could be con- 
 tracted for to-day. 
 
676 
 
 3700 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. How much haul do you figure in that price ? 
 
 A. About fifteen miles. 
 
 Q. How much do you think it would cost per yard 
 to get the earth at the nearest accessible point and con- 
 struct that embankment at the present time, without 
 an 3' railroad there ? 
 
 A. Simply an embankment — just haul the dirt up. 
 
 Q. Get it from the sides, or draw it, what 3'ou could 
 'not borrow, have you made an}' figures on that? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you making any fills now with a haul of 
 fifteen miles ? 
 
 A. We are making — we are hauling some dirt from 
 Alden ; not verj- extended. 
 
 Q. Do you haul it clear around to the dock tracks ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You stop way out here to East Bnflalo ? 
 
 A. Some goes there, and some goes to Black Rock. 
 
 Q. Yon haul that fifteen miles ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is that, gravel ? 
 
 A. Sand. 
 
 Q. Not used for ballast ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. For fining? 
 2'j'Q3 A. Yes, sir ; for filling. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. I would like to ask you, you 
 have estimated the value of this embankment at twenty- 
 five cents a yard ; was that based upon what Mr. Hawks 
 stated, that it was to be distributed over a period of 
 seven years, and to be done under the advantages of 
 using the construction trains, or was it the fair value of 
 putting in the embankment hauled a distance of fifteen 
 miles, and done immediately, as speedily as it can be 
 judiciously done ? 
 
Haven x] 677 
 
 A. JSfo, sir ; Mr. Barrian yesterday stated, in making 3704 
 his estimate, he made an estimate for a permanent tres- 
 tle-work, and that they would doubtless fill up the em- 
 bankment from time to time as they had occasion to, 
 and by so doing he could lessen the cost very much, very 
 materially. 
 
 Q. The precise question I was asking, was whether 
 you based your estimate of twenty-five cents per yard 
 upon spreading it over a period of six, seven or eight 
 years, the life of a trestle-work ? 3705 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much would it be worth more to do it as 
 speedily as it could be done, putting on special trains 
 for the purpose and working to the most judicious ad- 
 vantage and hauling fifteen miles? 
 
 A. It would be about ten cents a yard more ; it 
 would be worth about thirty-five cents a yard. 
 
 Q. The profile of the Lackawanna road showed a 
 cut within that distance, within twelve miles of Buffalo ? 3706 
 
 A. Within twelve or thirteen miles. 
 
 Q. Do you know what sort of material the earth is 
 there ? ^ 
 
 A. Judging from our grounds and the Central north 
 of it, the Erie road south of it, I should think it was 
 sand ; I don't know anything about it, of course ; it is 
 easy to be excavated with a steam shovel. 
 
 Q. What would be the value of land at that place — 
 
 3707 
 the cost of it — if you wanted to buy it ? 
 
 A. At the outside two hundred dollars an acre. 
 
 Q. And how deep could you cut it ? 
 
 A. Twelve or fifteen feet. 
 
 Re-cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. If it turned out that that cut which you referred 
 to consisted of quick-sand or hard-pan, would you say 
 that it was suitable place to get your filling ? 
 
678 
 
 2708 A. If it was quick-sand or hard-pan I would not say it 
 was a suitable place ; I would take clay. 
 
 Q. Would you take quick-sand ? 
 
 A. 1 don't think I would excavate that. 
 
 Q. How about hard-pan 'i 
 
 A. Nor hard-pan. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been in that cut, made any test 
 there, or anything? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 3709 Q. Have you seen the test-pits that exist there now ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Cora. McAlpine : Q. Such a cut as that, the land 
 worth $150 or $200 an acre, what is the cost of material 
 in place? 
 
 A. From a cent to a cent and a half per yard. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. I want to understand more defi- 
 nitely about your saying that if they went to work to 
 do this filling at once, that it would cost so much more ; 
 do you mean that if they rushed that filling so as to get 
 it done as soon as possible, that that would be a condi- 
 tion under which the cost would be larger ? 
 
 A. If they would do it this year. 
 
 Q. Suppose that they built their trestle there and 
 then filled in their embankment during the next year or 
 eighteen months, what would yon say as to the price ? 
 
 A. Twenty-five cents a yard. 
 
 Q. An increase of ten cents, if they went in to get 
 that while the thing was done right off? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That they would necessarily increase the expense 
 of it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I would like to have your opinion as to the effect 
 of a road elevated upon an iron trestle on the property 
 adjacent to the streets, as to the effects of a railroad run- 
 
Haven x ] 679 
 
 ning at grade there, wliicli do you think would injure 2712 
 the streets less, and the lands, and your reasons for it ? 
 
 A. I should think an irou trestle would injure it less 
 for the reason it would give free access to every lot, 
 under the trestle, every part of every lot, not only on 
 the streets, but if a man wanted to cross over from one 
 part of his lot to the other part of liis lot, he could go 
 under the trestle. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. Suppose the railroad company 
 should object to it? 2713 
 
 A. With a grade crossing they could only cross at 
 the streets at any rate, and there would be a chance that 
 they could go under the trestle work ; they could see 
 from one part of the lot to the other without any trouble 
 
 Q. There would not be any special interference with 
 light with this iron trestle ? 
 
 A. Very slight. 
 
 Q. Do you think that a structure like that, a well 
 built structure, such as has been described here,- of iron, ~ 
 would lessen the value of the real estate in the neighbor- 
 hood of these various streets as much as a railroad going 
 over thera at grade, in view of the fact that it is property 
 applicable to the residents, the working class? 
 
 A. I don't see why it would lessen the value of real 
 estate a particle. 
 
 Q. Do you see any reasons why it should depreciate 
 that property more than a crossing at grade, and all the 
 dangers incident, say to children and people in these 
 streets? 
 
 A. Ask that question again, please. 
 
 Q. Take this crossing at grade, and are there any 
 special dangers in connection with the people and chil- 
 dren living in the vicinity, in connection with those 
 grade crossings, that make them more dangerous to 
 property, less available than if the trestle was an iron 
 trestle, and the trains crossing over-head? 
 
 A. Certainly so. 
 
680 
 
 2716 Re-cross exmiiination, by Mr. Locke : 
 Q. Do you own any real estate there ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you gone to look over this matter with any 
 particular reference to this matter ? 
 
 A. In the matter of making an iron trestle there ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How long since yon have been on Alabama street 
 
 2717 where this road crosses ? 
 
 A. During the month of June, I don't know when. 
 
 Q. Have you been there frequently ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you own any real estate in the city ? 
 
 A. No, sir, not any. 
 
 Q. Do you own any in the State? 
 
 A. No, I don't own any in this State. 
 
 Q. You never did own any ? 
 
 -"^^^ A. Oh, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You don't now ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is the operation of an iron trestle accompanied 
 
 with any noise or racket? 
 
 A. Not any more than a road at grade. 
 
 Q. Haven't j'ou beard complaints against the elevated 
 
 roads in the city of New York on account of the noise? 
 
 2719 ^- ^'^'''^'- 
 
 Q. You think the noise is no greater on account of 
 
 the elevation of the tracks than if it •were on an earthen 
 
 embankment? 
 
 A. Not any more than an earthen embankment ap- 
 proaching a grade crossing. 
 
 Q. How would the noise compare with the operation 
 of a track on a grade crossing, or an embankment, or an 
 earthen embankment ? 
 
 A. The noise of the simple passing of the train and 
 
Haven x] 681 
 
 ringing of the Ijell or operation of the road, I thinli 'i120 
 there would be more noise on tlie grade crossing. 
 
 Q. Whicli would lie the noisier, the operation of the 
 road on the iron tresde, or on the earthen embankment 
 the same height ? 
 
 A. Possible a little more noise on the iron trestle, I 
 don't know as it would be much. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the devices that are 
 adopted to deaden- the noise on the elevated road in New- 
 York ? 37;J1 
 
 A. It is so near the brick wall there is a great deal 
 of reverberation, no, sir, I don't know the devices. 
 
 Q. 1 suppose you have built a good many iron tres- 
 tles? 
 
 A. I never built one in my life. 
 
 Q. Would the filling of the trestle in your judgment 
 after the operation of the road commenced be attended 
 by any delay to trains? 
 
 A. Not necessarily. '^'^'^^ 
 
 Q. You think that cars could run fifteen miles an 
 hour and skip in between times and take advantage of 
 one thing and another without being interfered with? 
 
 A. With a double track railroad. 
 
 Q. You would not anticipate any delays in conse- 
 quence of that ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Would the regular trains be apt to be delayed any 
 by the use of the construction trains filling that trestle? 
 
 A. I don't think they would. 
 
 Q. They could be managed and arranged by head- 
 work ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose no such degree of care and attention 
 could lessen tlie delays that you testified to down at this 
 grade crossing ? 
 
 A. No answer. 
 
682 
 
 3724 Q. Do you think a construction train could run in 
 there and fill that trestle without being delayed ? 
 
 A. That the construction train could run in there 
 and flu that trestle ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You think it could be run in there and without 
 being delayed ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 '^ Q. And still keep out of the way of passenger trains? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you explain how you would run that con- 
 struction train in there with a road in operation, without 
 having to hold on for passenger trains, and pay the ex- 
 penses of your operators while you are waiting ? 
 
 A. Trains being run by the train despatcher, they 
 regulate this in the despatcher's office, or the superin- 
 tendent, to run in between the trains without any trouble. 
 
 a726 r\ t 111 . o 
 
 Q. It would have to wait? 
 A. Not necessarily. 
 
 Q. You think it could keep on making regular trips 
 in connection with the business C)f the road? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Passengers and freight ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If they were delayed, the wages of the men and 
 2<^27 ti'ain expenses would add largely to the expense of the 
 filling up of the trestle ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; slightly. 
 
 lie-direct examination : 
 
 Q. Is that a thing of very common occurrence, that 
 you are running the construction trains without delaying 
 the running of the other trains ? 
 
 A. It is common, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't you examine all this territory west of the 
 
Haven.] 683 
 
 Lake Shore over which the altered route goes, with 3728 
 special reference to that I'oute? 
 
 A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What does it indicate ? 
 
 A. It is a profile of the Erie International line, or 
 Erie and Niagara Falls line ; the Falls branch, as they 
 call it, from William street, or a little south of William 
 street, to a little north of Batavia street, showing the 
 surface line of the ground and the New York Central 
 track, and the grade line, or the top of the trestle ; the 3739 
 face of the rail of the Erie railway ; the bottom line, the 
 uneven line, being the ground line, and the straight lines 
 being the grade lines covering a distance of about a mile. 
 
 Q. That is a wooden trestle ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The same one that has been spoken of here ? 
 
 A. It is a wooden trestle over the Central Railroad. 
 
 Q. The point here near station sixty, what is that? 
 
 A. That is the north end of the trestle, where the 
 trestle ends at Batavia street, at tlie south edge of 
 Batavia street. 
 
 Q. And is that~the point where testimony was given 
 yesterday as to the elevation of Batavia street, some six 
 or seven feet to bring it up to the grade of the crossing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. This little opening or culvert here, what is that ? 
 
 A. A little elevation above the natural surface, as the ,„„ 
 old road-way. 
 
 Q. The old Conhocton road-bed ? 
 
 A. It belongs to the Central Railroad. 
 
 Q. That is crossed over by what ? 
 
 A. By an embankment ; Batavia street was raised, 
 the grade at that point of Batavia street was raised about 
 seven feet. 
 
 Q. Has there been a proposition between yourself as 
 
684 
 
 2732 engineer at Buffalo, and the engineer of the Central, to 
 make some modifications here at this point? 
 
 A. There has been a talk ; it has been seriously con- 
 sidered by both parties ; our grade from Batavia street, 
 going north, runs up over a summit, quite a summit; it 
 has been proposed to make a uniform grade from the 
 summit to the toj:) of the trestle, so as to run over the old 
 Conhoeton railroad at that point. 
 
 Q. That is simply a road-bed there? 
 
 2733 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And, as you understand it, a road-bed belonging 
 to the Central, and upon which they desire to lay down 
 a track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And have they proposed to pay the expense of 
 constructing this trestle out here with a view of giv- 
 ing them that under-crossing at that point ? 
 
 A. Mr. Fisher, their chief engineer, said they would 
 '^ probably do that. It was seriously coutemplated by 
 them to do that. The proposition has not j'et been made 
 by them ; they merely sounded us to find out whether 
 we would consider that proposition. I told them that 
 we would consider it very seriously and would be willing 
 to meet their requirements. 
 
 (Profile referred to marked " Exhibit 16.") 
 
 Q. Just give us fuller details in regard to the trestle ? 
 
 A. The l.ients at thiit point were originally made six- 
 teen feet, I think, they are now twelve, it being a single 
 track trestle and made of hemlock posts and sills and 
 caps, and pine stringers. The trestle was made in 1870, 
 I think. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine: Q. It has not been renewed 
 since? 
 
 A. It has not been entirely renewed, it has been re- 
 paired and kept in order. 
 
 By counsel, resuming: Q. Now, the height ? 
 
Haven x] 685 
 
 A. The grade on each side is at the rate of 50.80 per 2736 
 mile from William street, ninning north, and from tlje 
 Central railroad running north, descending. 
 
 Q. And the height at the Central crossing ? 
 
 A. Twenty feet and four-tenths from top of rail to 
 top of rail. 
 
 Q. Giving how much clear ? 
 
 A. About eighteen feet, Mr. Channte informs me, I 
 haven't got it exactlj'. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. How high is the truss above '^'^^'^^ 
 the ground at the Central road ? 
 
 A. Well, that would make it, the Central road is 
 about two feet above the ground there, and from their 
 grade it is about eighteen feet to the bridge. 
 
 Q. It is about twenty-two feet above the ground, 
 then ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it is about twenty-two feet above the 
 
 ground. 
 
 ^ 2738 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. Have you ever measured the height of that clear- 
 ance under your trestle, from the rail of the Central 
 track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I have measured it two or three times 
 from time to time. 
 
 Q. Will you testify that it is more than eighteen 
 
 feet 2 
 
 leet. > ^ g^g.j 
 
 A. No, sir; I won't testify that it is more than eigh- 
 teen feet. 
 
 Q. You think it is eighteen feet ? 
 
 A. I think it is exactly eighteen feet. 
 
 Q. And the statement that it was nineteen feet was 
 an error, if it has been made here ? 
 
 A. That I would not be willing to swear to here. 
 
 Q. If it is only eighteen feet ? 
 
 A. If it is only eighteen feet. 
 
636 
 
 3740 Q. And you think the testimony already given on 
 that subject, if different from that, is erroneous? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you are acquainted with all these railroads 
 coming into Buffalo, tiie general railroad system in Buf- 
 falo, are you not ? 
 
 A. In a general way, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, mention the points in the city of Buffalo 
 that you can think of where one railroad intersects an- 
 
 3741 other at grade, and see if this list that I have made of 
 them is correct, as you understand it ? 
 
 A. The Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia Rail- 
 road crossing the Erie is a grade-crossing; the Alabama 
 street crossing of the New York Central and Erie ; the 
 crossing known as the Compromise tracks of the Lake 
 Shore and Erie : the Sandusky street, Erie and Lake 
 Shore ; the Buffalo Creek Railroad on the Erie ; the 
 
 Buffalo Creek Railroad and the Lake Shore ; the New 
 
 3743 
 
 York Central, or a branch of that, by the Erie Interna- 
 tional ; the Erie and New York Central at Suspension 
 Bridge, that I don't know anything about. The Buffalo, 
 New York and Philadelphia over the New York Cen- 
 tral, at Emslie street, so-called ; the Buffalo, New York 
 and Philadelphia with the Erie at Olean, some miles 
 south of here; the Buffalo Creek Railroad with the Buf- 
 falo, New York and Philadelphia. 
 2~.o Q- That makes ten? 
 
 A. Ten grade-crossings and one over-crossing of the 
 Erie International by the New York Central. 
 
 Q. Now, you know of but one over-crossing? 
 
 A. I know of but one over-crossing. 
 
 Q. Now, take the Buffalo, New York and Philadel- 
 phia crossing of the Erie, all the tonnage of the Philadel- 
 phia road crosses you ? 
 
 A. All the tonnage of the Buffalo, New York and 
 
Haven xj 687 
 
 Philadelphia crosses that, I think, except what goes down 3744 
 over the Buffalo Creek. 
 
 Q. And all the Erie tonnage crosses it, don't it, that 
 comes west to Buffalo, or goes west of Buffalo by the 
 Lake Shore? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And over-crossing number one, all the tonnage of 
 the Buffalo, New York and Philadelphia crosses, except 
 what goes to the Buffalo Creek ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; except their coal tonnage, which goes to 3745 
 the Buffalo Creek. 
 
 Q. Can you give me the tonnage figures ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you give me the tonnage of the Erie ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, take the Alabama street crossing of the 
 N. Y. C. & H. E. E. E. and Erie, all the passenger busi- 
 ness of the N. Y. C. & H. E. E. E. and all the freight 
 
 2746 
 business that goes by the Lake Shore, or west from Buf- 
 falo by water, crosses that track, does it not? 
 
 A. All the passenger business of the N. Y. C. & H. 
 E. E. E. which comes from the East. 
 
 Q. Or goes to the East ? 
 
 A. Or goes to the East ; and all of their city freight 
 business. 
 
 Q. And Lake Shore business ? 
 
 A. No, sir, not the Lake Shore business ; their busi- ^„.„ 
 ness that goes to the West by water. 
 
 Q. Crosses there ? 
 
 A. Except some of their coal business, a very small 
 thing which goes by the Buffalo Creek Eailroad. 
 
 Q. Every pound of freight that comes in by the New 
 York Central Eailroad, and which comes to Buffalo or 
 west of Buffalo by the Lake Shore, or by water, crosses 
 other tracks at grade, does it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, but it does not all cross that crossing. 
 
688 
 
 ^748 Q. Then the entire tonnage of the Central road 
 crosses the intersecting rovids at grade within the limits 
 of the city of Buffalo, except such as goes to the Inter- 
 national Bridge? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. AVell, that crosses also ; the International Bridge 
 crosses your tracks ? 
 
 A. No, sir, not all of it; the International Bridge 
 line does not cross any road at grade. 
 a749 Q. Every other pound of the N. Y. C. & H. R. ii. R. 
 does cross the intersecting road at grades ? 
 
 A. Except that which goes over the International 
 Bridge. 
 
 Q. Now, nnmber three is the Alabama street cross- 
 ing of the Compromise tracks? 
 
 A. By the Erie, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On that cr(jHses all the business which is delivered 
 to the Ijake Shore by tlie Central, or to the Central by 
 ^^•5" the Lake Shore? 
 
 A. That I don't know, but I think it does; it has 
 been so testified in the case, all the freight business, 
 
 Q. Number four is the Sandusky street, and we have 
 had that explained; all the east-bound and west-bound 
 freight business and passenger business of the Lake 
 Shore Road crosses those tracks at grade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And all of the Erie Railway freight destined for 
 the West b}' water ? 
 
 A. Except their coal — except a portion of their coal. 
 
 Q. Except a portion of their coal, crosses there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And all the Delaware and Hudson Canal Com- 
 pany's coal crosses there? 
 
 A. Yea, sir. 
 
 Q. Number five, the Bufi'alo Creek crossing of the 
 Erie? 
 
Haven x] 689 
 
 A. That was the last one that was put in about two ^753 
 years ago. 
 
 Q. All the traffic of the N. Y. C. & H. E. E. E: 
 which goes around to Buifalo Eiver on the Buftalo Creek 
 road, crosses the Erie at grade there? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, and so little used that they stand freight 
 ears on the main track between the Erie and Central a 
 half a day at a time. 
 
 Q. But all that does go across, all that connects with 
 Buffalo Eiver? ^'^53 
 
 A. All that goes on the Buffalo Creek Eailroad from 
 or to N. Y. C. & H. E. E. E. crosses there. 
 
 Q. Now, all of the Erie traffic crosses that crossing, 
 doesn't it ? 
 
 A. Well, all the Erie traffic, except that which goes 
 by the Buffalo Creek Eailroad, and the Buffalo and 
 Jamestown branch, the southwestern branch of the Erie 
 crosses there. 
 
 Q. Now, since the Buffalo Creek crossing of the Lake 
 Shore, all the traffic of the Lake Shore crosses that at 
 grade, doesn^'t it — passenger and freight ? 
 
 A. I thinly it does. 
 
 Q. All the traffic of the Buffalo Creek Eoad, except 
 «uch as it receives from the Lake Shore, crosses there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, everything that comes from the lake. 
 
 Q. On number seven all of the Erie Eailway traffic 
 destined for the Internationa] Bridge crosses the N. Y. 0755 
 C. & H. E. E. E. T, does it not? 
 
 A. It crosses a single track of the N.Y.C. & H.E.E.E. 
 which connects Niagara Falls, or Lockport, or Tonawan- 
 da, with East Buffalo. 
 
 Q. And then goes on to number eight and passes 
 what? 
 
 A. Then at number eight it crosses a double-track 
 railroad of the N. Y. C. & H. E. E. E. which runs from 
 Black Eock to Niagara Falls, 
 
690 
 
 2756 Q. Now, number nine, the B., N. Y. & P. crossing of 
 the N. Y. C. & H. R. R. R. at Emslie street, all the citj- 
 bonud freight, all the passenger business of the B., N. 
 Y. & P. crosses this track of the N. Y. C. & R. R. R. R. 
 there? 
 
 A. I don't know anything about that. 
 Q. Don't you know that there are depots at Louisiana 
 street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 2757 Q. Their passenger trains run to their depot, don't 
 they? 
 
 A. I suppose they do. 
 
 Q. All the Central business not destined for the In- 
 ternational Bridge, and not destined for the Buffalo 
 Creek road, crosses that crossing? 
 
 A. They twist around in so many places, I can't say. 
 
 Q. Don't all their passenger trains from and to the 
 east, cross that crossing ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All the freight that goes to the Lake Shore 
 crosses it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All their city freight crosses it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All their freight going west by water, by the 
 Western Transportation Company, crosses it ? 
 
 A. I think it does. 
 
 Q. The B., N. Y. & P. crossing of the Compromise 
 tracks ? 
 
 A. That I don't know anything about. 
 
 Q. The B., N. Y. & P. crossing of the Erie, at Clean, 
 fifty miles from here ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All the Erie trafilc between Hornellsville and 
 Salamanca, between Hornellsville and Dunkirk, crosses 
 that road, does not it, at grade ? 
 
 3758 
 
 3759 
 
Haven. J 691 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 2760 
 
 Q. All the B., N. Y. and P. traffic crosses that cross- 
 ing? 
 
 A. All the through business, yes, sir; a single track 
 botli lines. 
 
 Q. The Buffalo Creek crossing of the B., N. Y. & P., 
 that is about the same as the Buffalo Creek crossing of 
 the Erie Railway, is it not '? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; only less business on it. 
 
 Q. And so of all these crossings which you have been 2761 
 able to mention, only one is an over-head crossing ? 
 
 A. Only one. 
 
 Q. Now, is not ninety-nine per cent., in your judg- 
 ment, of all the freight and passenger business which 
 comes to or goes from the city of Buffalt), carried over 
 a grade-crossing ? 
 
 A. 1 don't think it is. 
 
 Q. You think the Erie International is over one per 
 cent, of the entirety ? ^'^^^ 
 
 A. I think so; I don't know anything about it, but I 
 think so. 
 
 Q. Doesn't it make five per cent., one-twentieth of the 
 entire traffic of all the roads coming in here? 
 
 A. I don't know anything about it. 
 
 Q. Have you not any judgment about it, any opinion? 
 
 A. I don't know; there is an immense business there 
 
 all the time, and cars crossing continually. 
 
 2763 
 
 Re-direct examination, by Mr. McMillan : 
 
 Q. With the exception of the Buffalo Creek crossing 
 of the Erie, which was put in at the time the Erie be- 
 came interested in that road, have any of these other 
 crossings which you have mentioned, been constructed 
 or made within the past seven or eight years ? 
 
 A. Most recent grade-crossings that I call to mind 
 now, were made in 1874. 
 
692 
 
 2764 Q. And all the others previous to that time, with the 
 exception of the one crossing, the Buffalo Creek with 
 the Erie? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the Buffalo Creek and Erie crossing was a 
 crossing that was put in after the Erie became inter- 
 ested in that road, and had a partial control of it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 8765 James S. Lton, sworn on behalf of the petitioners, 
 and examined by Mr. Milburn, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. You are a real estate agent in this city ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For how many years has your business been con- 
 nected with the management and sale of real estate? 
 
 A. Thirty years. 
 
 Q. That time has been pretty constantly devoted to 
 real estate in the city of Buffalo, and selling it and rent- 
 ing it, ascertaining its value, and studying it generally ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you made an examination of the locality 
 that we have up in this case, say from the neighborhood 
 of the Buffalo Creek to Alabama street ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was your examination of that territory made 
 with special reference to the effect of the railroad, the 
 2767 I^^ckawanna Railroad, here upon it, as property, as real 
 estate ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of course you were well acquainted in that region 
 prior to that time? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 I show this map, "Exhibit No. 4." (Presents map to 
 witness.) Q. Taking the property west of the Erie and 
 Lake Shore intersection, what is your judgment as to 
 the comparative effects upon that property, of the Lack- 
 
Lyon.J 693 
 
 awana crossing it at the grade of the other railroads, or 3768 
 crossing it on an iron trestle, say in the neighborhood 
 of twenty feet high, fifteen, sixteen, eighteen or twenty 
 feet high, what would be the comparative effects; which, 
 Would you think, would injure that property least? 
 
 A. I think trestle-work would injure it least. 
 
 Q. Will you give us your reasons for that judgment? 
 
 A. The land is all low, an embankment there would 
 produce ponds and puddles, stagnant water; there is no 
 drainage down there, and I think another advantage 2769 
 would be raising it above the grade, so that the gamins 
 there would not be stealing rides on the freight. 
 
 Q. So that the streets can be traveled without cross- 
 ing the tracks of a railroad ? 
 
 A. Well, that would be another advantage. 
 
 Q. All that property is used for residences of the 
 working class ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, all a cheap class of buildings. 
 
 Q. About what is the value of buildings put up there? 
 
 A. Oh, they are buildings from two hundred dollars ; 
 I don't think I saw any of them that would cost over 
 a thousand dollars to build. 
 
 By. Com. McAlpine : Q. Mostly wooden buildings ? 
 
 A. Entirely wooden buildings ; I don't think I saw a 
 brick building there. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. And largely occupied by 
 families? _ ^^^^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By men working on railroads, or working at other 
 kinds of labor, occupied by them and their families ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, entirely a laboring population. 
 
 Q. Taking that purpose to which the land is devoted 
 there, dwellings of those classes, and which would inter- 
 fere with it least, affect its value least, a crossing on this 
 trestle, or a crossing at that locality, and all of those 
 streets at grade ? 
 
694 
 
 2772 A. Crossing the trestle would be least injurious in my 
 judgment. 
 
 Q. It would affect the value of the property least ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The trestle-work is open and does not obstruct 
 the view, or prevent free communication from each side 
 of it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that is a fact which would give it a superi- 
 
 2773 ority over a grade crossing, or any kind of embankment? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, taking this yard property on the other side 
 East, and between that and the Buffalo Creek, taking these 
 lots, 183, 182, 181, 180, now, I will ask you if their lines, 
 laid out as represented on this map, if that would'nt prac- 
 tically appropriate the whole of those lots to railroad 
 purposes, and destroy them for any other purpose ? 
 
 A. Well, it depends upon what other purposes you 
 ' ' would require to use them for. 
 
 Q. Take them at grade on such embankment as the 
 Lackawanna people have, taking that property just as it 
 is represented there on this map, " Exhibit 2," taking the 
 Lackawanna lines as made out by them, does that, so 
 for as 182, 181, 180 are concerned, practically appropri- 
 ate them ? 
 
 A. Well, I can hardly answer, the question in that 
 form, of course it appropriates that that it takes, and 
 leaves the balance to be appropriated if it is necessary. 
 
 Q. Take the balance that is left there ; that is com- 
 mon land now, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it is only used for pasture. 
 
 Q. If their line is cut through as that represents, 
 
 what could you apply the unappropriated portions to 
 
 what purposes? 
 
 A. Oh, in my judgment, they will be used in the 
 future for manufacturing purposes. 
 
Lyon.] 696 
 
 Q. Would there be enough, take for instances Box's 3776 
 lot, would there be enough there? 
 
 A. Oh, for certain kinds of manufacturing establish- 
 ments, yes, sir, some would require more, you know, but 
 they are these small establishments. 
 
 Q. And this space intermediate the two tracks ? 
 
 A. That would be comparatively worthless. 
 
 Q. Take this part fronting on what is called San- 
 dusky street laid out on the map ; that would leave a 
 frontage ? 2777 
 
 A. Well, the railroad, that to such an extent, that 
 they should pay for the value of the whole lot. 
 
 Q. So that taking that lot, 181, there would practi- 
 cally be little left of much value after those lines are 
 laid out ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. After the two lines as pro- 
 posed by the Lackawanna railroad are constructed ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. ^"^"^^ 
 
 Q. Now, generally, as to all the property lying east 
 of the Lake Shore, and running in the direction of the 
 Buffalo River, I should like to know the comparative 
 effects upon the value of the property, if an embankment 
 for a railroad, say between seven and nine feet high, and 
 of, say an iron trestle, taking the railroad up seventeen to 
 twenty feet, as the case might be ? 
 
 A. I should say that the trestle-work would be the 
 preferable thing to make there, so far as the value of the 
 land is concerned. 
 
 Q. That the trestle-work would affect the value of 
 the surrounding lands in their usefulness least? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The kind of trestle I am referring to is, where 
 every alternate thirty feet is open so that teams could 
 pass, and every other thirty feet is cross-braced so that 
 
696 
 
 3780 only individuals could pass ; taking that kind of trestle, 
 and does your answer apply ? 
 
 A. Certainly, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The iron trestle-work that has been described 
 here, is that of iron piers in a vertical position, four at 
 each end, and then horizontally lying on that, of course 
 the iron bed for the railroad, then every alternate thirty 
 feet is completely open ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 3781 Q. Then the alternate thirty feet has iron braces over, 
 leaving only half the space open, taking that as a fair 
 description of an iron trestle, does yonr answer still 
 apply ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, as between an embankment seven to nine 
 
 feet high and an embankment as high as the trestle-work 
 
 that 1 have described to you, what would be your 
 
 answer to the same question put to you calling for a 
 
 ' comparison ? 
 
 A. I should say that the lesser embankment were 
 preferable. 
 
 Q. Could you express in figures of depreciation, the 
 effect, the comparative effect of the two embankments 
 on the adjoining lands ? 
 
 A. Oh, no ; I could not intelligently. 
 
 Q. What would you say, giving an approximation, 
 supposing an embankment is run through there at that 
 height on this line ? 
 
 A. Well, I should say it would be fifty per cent, 
 more on a high embankment than a lower one. 
 
 Q. Now, would that depreciation occur to the land in 
 the immediate vicinity of the embaiikment ? 
 
 A. I have my mind now upon this land across the 
 railroad there, between that and the Buffalo Creek road. 
 Does that question apply to thatea.st of the Lake Shore ? 
 
Lyon.] 697 
 
 Q. What I want is, if that applies to the land in the 3784 
 immediate vicinity of the embanlcment ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, take for instance — there is marked on map 
 "Exhibit 4" this lot of Mr. Locke's, which is bounded 
 by lots 177, 176, 175 and 179, and the Buffalo Eiver; 
 now take it that on this red line marked A on this 
 map, running through that lot, and embankment 17 
 feet high, or 18 feet high, as the case may be, is built ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 3785 
 
 Q. The other instance is an embankment seven or 
 eight feet high built; now would your answer say that 
 the whole value of that lot is depreciated fifty per cent. ? 
 
 A. Well, I can hardly say how far that damage 
 would extend. 
 
 Q. There is the Buffalo Creek road running through 
 the lot now ; now, it does not interfere witli his water- 
 front except at that point, does it ? 
 
 A. I should judge not. ^'^^^ 
 
 Q. So that this entire water-front is left unaffected 
 except where it is bridged by this railroad ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but then that cuts them off the use of 
 that bed-road ; virtually it raises a big embankment be- 
 tween the Abbott road and the available part of his lot 
 for business purposes. 
 
 Q. Now, assuming that access is had by a proper 
 quantity, and properly constructed under-crossings of 
 sufficient height and sufficient number to this Abbott 
 road for this property, would there be anything like that 
 depreciation then? 
 
 A. Not to the whole extent of the lot ; but I should 
 say for tlie distance of a hundred feet, anyway, on each 
 side of the embankment it would depreciate to the 
 amount of fifty per cent. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. What is the present value 
 of the property which you have just been describing? 
 
698 
 
 3788 A. It is worth, that land there, all the way from five 
 hundred to a thousand dollars an acre, all the land on 
 either side of that track ; the average of land along there 
 would be eight hundred dollars an acre, from the Ab- 
 bott road, I mean, the back lots. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. It is worth more on the Abbott 
 road, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Q. How much more ? 
 
 2789 
 
 A. Oh, it is worth considerable more. 
 
 Q. Double? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Has it any present value be- 
 cause of its water front on the Buffalo Creek ? 
 
 A. I think it has, prospectively. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. Take that property now, 
 and does it pay its taxes ? 
 2„Q„ A. No, sir; not for grazing purposes. 
 
 Q. That is what all that property is used for ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Locke't property, with all the other lots; just 
 what he can get out of grazing ? 
 
 A. I think he sold some of it to the chemical works 
 there, which I guess he got more than pasture-land price 
 for. 
 
 By Com. McAlpine : Q. Do canal-boats ever come 
 2791 up there now ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Can canal-boats come up? 
 
 A. They could by clearing out a little bar just above 
 the iron works; that can be made navigable up to this 
 point or above. 
 
 Q. Do you understand it to be navigable by law ; the 
 right to navigate ? 
 
 A. Certainly ; when I said navigable, I meant for 
 boats drawing over seven feet of water ; I presume it is 
 
Lyon.J 699 
 
 navigable for canal-boats, and I think I have seen canal 3792 
 boats lying at the chemical works, at Kalbfleisch's works 
 above the bridge; perhaps they would draw from five to 
 seven teet of water ; not navigable for boats drawing a 
 greater depth than seven feet. 
 
 By counsel, resuming : Q. Taking that railroad line 
 A, constructed just as it is shown on this map, and on 
 the high embankment, taking the situation here, that 
 there are railroad facilities through this lot by the Buf- 
 falo Greek Railway which runs there, and that in this ^^^93 
 embankment are built a proper number of proper, ade- 
 quate arches or bridges, whatever it is, for under-cross- 
 ings, for access to the Abbott road ; now, do you think 
 that this river front here, the property there, getting 
 away a hundred feet from the embankment, would be 
 depreciated ? . 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it would depreciate it some, even then ; 
 with an embankment it would be depreciated then. 
 
 Q. Would it be much depreciated? ^^^* 
 
 A. Well, I think the depreciation would be leSs, of 
 course, as the distance increases. 
 
 Q. It would have all the facilities of this water-front 
 with the embankment there, that it would have without 
 the embankment, would it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; but then it isolates you. 
 
 Q. That is it ; does the result of depreciation grow 
 out of this embankment cutting them away from the 0795 
 Abbott road ? 
 
 A. Well, it does only to the extent that it isolates 
 you ; your buildings could not be seen from the Abbott 
 road to any advantage ; your manufacturing signs, 
 sugar works, or iron works, your signs would not be ex- 
 hibited from the thoroughfare. 
 
 Q. Is that what would cause the depreciation, this 
 isolation by the embankment? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
700 
 
 3796 Q. And this obstructed access to the Abbott road ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But so far as the purposes to which the land can 
 be applied are concerned, those purposes are not inter- 
 fered with? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. In giving us your estimates, did you take into ac- 
 count all the prospective uses to which the lot could be 
 put? 
 
 3797 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You are speaking of it as a valuable lot, adapted 
 to commercial purposes? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You are not speaking of it simply as a grazing 
 lot? 
 
 A. Oh, no. 
 
 Q. But, as I understand, all this property would be 
 least depreciated by a trestle such as has been described, 
 taking into account both a high embankment and a low 
 embankment? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; a trestle-work above the lay of the land. 
 
 Q. What is the value of this lot 185 as compared 
 with the value, say, of 183, 182, 181, 180, and so on? 
 
 A. Oh, relatively these are about the same value. 
 
 Q. You think that lot 1 85 is about of the same value 
 as these other lots that I have mentioned ? 
 
 2799 ^' ^^^' ^"■■ 
 
 Q. If that lot was owned by an individual, and was 
 
 applicable to the railroad purposes of the Lake Shore, 
 
 so that they wanted it, that would give it increased 
 
 value over the others ? 
 
 A. Relatively; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The fact of its being applicable to railroad pur- 
 poses, would be an element at once increasing its value 
 over the lots not required by the railroad company? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
Lyon xj 701 
 
 Q. Compared with property on the other side, how 3800 
 is the value of this ? 
 
 A. The vahie of lands west of the track is considera- 
 bly more than that east. 
 
 Q. One you speak of by the acre and the other by 
 the foot? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Crom examination, by Mr. Locke: 
 
 Q. You tried to buy Mr. Box's lot down there, didn't 3801 
 you? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you make him an offer ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you go to make inquiries about it ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see him about it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; or he saw me. 
 
 Q. At whose instigation did you see him ? *°"^ 
 
 A. I presume it was his own instigation, I don't 
 know ; he called at my office about it. 
 
 Q. Did you call upon him ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't you communicate with Mr. Alward about 
 the Babcock lot ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think if you had lot 181, or' 180, or 178, 
 down there, that you had just as soon have a railroad put 
 through on an embankment nineteen or twenty feet 
 high as to have it at the present grade of the Buffalo 
 Creek road ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I would not. 
 
 Q. It would make a very great difference, would it 
 not? 
 
 A, Yes,' sir. 
 
702 
 
 3804 Q. Don't yon think that the injury to that lot would 
 extend more than a hundred feet from tlie railroad? 
 A. It might; it would depend upon circumstances. 
 Q. It would deprive you of any connection with the 
 road crossing you, wouldn't it ? Practically you couldn't 
 have a connection with the railroad which crossed you 
 nineteen feet high on an embankment ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And so far it would afi'ect the saleability of your 
 2805 remaining lands ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, for certain purposes. 
 Q. For business purposes ? 
 
 A. For railroad purposes where you required a rail- 
 road connecting. • 
 
 Q. All that property is made more desirable by a 
 raili'oad connection, is it not? 
 A. Certain parts of it. 
 
 Q. All the property lying along the line of the rail- 
 ^^^^ road is worth more than property lying six or seven hun- 
 dred feet awayTrom the railroad ? 
 A. That is not a rule. 
 Q. How is it in cities ? 
 
 A. It is sometimes a curse ; several thousand feet is 
 a good deal better away. 
 
 Q. Take other things being equal, and through such 
 a property as that, do you say that a railroad connection 
 would enhance the vahie of the property ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it would be desirable to have a railroad 
 connection. 
 
 Q. It would multiply the number of uses to which 
 the property could be put? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You know the grade of the Buffalo Creek road 
 through the property ? 
 
 A. I know it only from my eye. 
 
Lyon x] 703 
 
 Q. yon know how it lies in reference to the natnral 3808 
 surface of lot 178, for instance, which you sold mo ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, do you say that that Buffalo Greek road 
 through lot 178, as it is now constructed, is a serious det- 
 riment to the lot ? 
 
 A. No, I don't think it is. 
 
 Q. Now, if the Buffalo Creek road were elevated 
 twenty feet high on an embankment, how would you re- 
 gard it then ? 2809 
 
 A. 1 should consider that a disadvantage. 
 
 Q. I suppose if you had property right where it is to- 
 daj', if you owned this property, you would prefer not 
 to have a railroad of nineteen feet high on the other side 
 of the street, would you not? 
 
 A. 1 guess so. 
 
 Q. Yon would prefer not to have a railroad of nine- 
 teen feet high on the other side of the street, would you 
 not^ ^810 
 
 A. I guess so. 
 
 Q. You would think it would seriously interfere with 
 the value of your property ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Speaking of Mr. Box's lot, it is in testimony here 
 that Mr. Box's lot is in depth from Sandusky street about 
 six or seven hundred feet back, so that two railroads run- 
 ning through there and intersecting as the proposed Lack- 
 awanna lines do, and running through on the same grade 
 as the Buffalo Creek road, would utterly destroy all that 
 lot? 
 
 A. I don't know how much it would destroy, it vir- 
 tually confiscates the whole lot. 
 
 Q. Isn't a lot two hundred feet in depth along San- 
 dusky street front of any value for business purposes hav- 
 ing a railroad connection ? 
 
704 
 
 3813 A. None of that has any value for business purposes 
 at present. 
 
 Q. It wouldn't be of any value having a railroad con- 
 nection with it? 
 
 A. It could be utilized. 
 
 By Mr. Milburn : Q. That just brings up the ques- 
 tion that the injury to these lots 183, 182, 181, 180 is 
 entirely dependent upon how much, with two railroads 
 going through any way, is left to be available for any 
 38] 3 purpose ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the situation of that which is left? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, if the two roads are through there, and one 
 is at grade, why, then there would bo railroad facilities 
 to that grade railroad in any event, wouldn't it, whether 
 this one was on an embankment or not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 2814 Q. You say the question is not whether this railroad 
 on the embankment cuts these railroads oif from railroad 
 facilities, because there is running through them another 
 branch of the Lackawanna which is at grade, so that 
 your branch would give them the desired railroad facili- 
 ties, would it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 It is conceded by the respective counsel, that the ae- 
 3815 company ing schedule produced is a correct statement. 
 The schedule above referred to reads as follows : 
 
 aEADE-CROSSINGS. DATE.* 
 
 1. B., N. Y. & P. of Erie, 1869 
 
 2. Alabama street N. Y. C. and Erie, 1853 
 
 3. Compromise tracks, Erie and L. S., 1874 
 
 4. Sandusky street, Erie and L. S., 1853 
 
 5. Buffalo Creek and Erie,. . ; 1879 
 
 6. B.C. and L. S., 1873 
 
Chanute.] 705 
 
 7. N. Y. C. from East Buffalo to Niagara Falls, 3816 
 
 and Erie International, 1874 
 
 8. N. Y. C. from East Buffalo to Niagara Falls, 
 
 and Erie International, 1874 
 
 9. B., N. Y. & P. and N. Y. 0. at Emslie street,. .1872 
 
 10. B., N. Y. & P. and Erie, Olean, 1872 
 
 11. B. C. R. R. andB., N. Y. & P., 1873 
 
 Over-crossing Erie International of N. Y. C.,. . . .1870 
 
 *The dates above given are those when each new„„, ^ 
 railroad made its crossing of tiie older built railroad. 
 
 Octave Chanute, re-called on behalf of the petition- 
 ers, and examined by Mr. Milburn, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. I wish you would state what the attitude of rail- 
 road companies is to-day towards entering cities on grade 
 roads, and what is being done in that regard by them? 
 
 A. There is a general movement going on in all our 
 American cities to elevate the tracks of a railroad enter- ^"-'^ 
 ing cities so as to avoid interference with street traffic, and 
 the great expense which follows from the necessity of 
 watchmen and gates to prevent accidents. Those watch- 
 men, the accidents that result from collisions have been 
 found so serious and so expensive that for the past five 
 or six years railroads have been expending large sums 
 of money to elevate their tracks. The instances that oc- 
 cur to me at the present time are, first, the building of a 
 new line of approach through Jersey City, by the Penn- 
 sylvania Railroad, in order to bring its trains over-head 
 of the streets. The work which was accomplished in 
 1874 or 1875. 
 
 Q. Just state the expense ? 
 
 A. I don't know what the expense was. 
 
 Q. Approximately? 
 
 A. It must have been some three hundred thousand 
 dollars: at about the same time the Delaware, Lacka- 
 
706 
 
 3820 wanna and Western expended at least two hundred thous- 
 and dollars in raising its track through the streets of Jersey 
 City, over the streets, and in raising its yard so as to 
 bring its trafEc at an elevation of about twenty feet above 
 the grade which it formerly occupied, and in connection 
 with that, it spent an additional sum of about a million 
 dollars in boring anew tunnel through Bergen Hill, at an 
 elevation of some twenty-five feet above the tunnel of the 
 Erie road, which they formerly occupied, for the purpose 
 
 3821 of doing away with grade-crossings at streets; the Erie 
 Railway at Jersey City expends a sum wliich we esti- 
 mate at about forty thousand dollars a year for watching 
 and additional switching, because of its position at the 
 street level, and we have been contemplating the raising 
 of our tracks from the end of our tunnel down to the 
 water's edge, so as to do away with that necessity, that 
 expense, that danger; the Pennsylvania Railroad has ex- 
 pended a sum, I believe, of some two millions of dollars 
 
 3822 jjj paising its tracks in Philadelphia. 
 
 Q. Raising its tracks to get above the level of the 
 streets ? 
 
 A. Raising its tracks to get above the level of the 
 streets, building viaducts ; it has built trestle and ma- 
 • sonry — brick viaducts to carry its passenger line down 
 through Market street, I believe, to do away with the 
 grade-crossing, and the consequent danger and expense; 
 ^ggg the city of New York and the N. T. C. & H. R. R. R. 
 have expended jointly about three million dollars in de- 
 pressing the tracks of the N. Y. C. & H. R. R. R. from 
 the 42d street depot out to Harlem River, so as to do 
 away with its grade-crossings ; at Rochester the N. Y. C. 
 & H. R. R. R. is about to expend at least a half million 
 dollars in raising its tracks through the city ; at Chicago, 
 the railroads have been discussing for the last two years 
 a project for raising their tracks where they enter the 
 city, at a cost, which will run pretty well into the millions 
 
Chanute.J 707 
 
 of dollars ; in St. Louis, the same problem has arisen, 3834 
 and the Iron Mountain Eailroad, as I know upon receiv- 
 ing some estimates from iron bridge builders for some two 
 miles of trestle work; iron trestle, to bring its lines 
 through the city, and I believe the same question is being 
 agitated in otlier cities, and I have no doubt that we 
 shall all liave to come to it at all the important centers 
 of population and trade. 
 
 Q. There has been a good deal of misunderstanding 
 about one of your answers. I would like to find out just 3835 
 how you really meant it. When we were on the question 
 of grade-crossings, in reply to a question of Mr. Locke's, 
 you fixed a certain per centage, ninety, I think, of the 
 various difficulties growing out of a grade-crossing, and 
 attributed that to danger to life. That answer has been 
 construed that taking all the difficnlties, the delays, etc., 
 at that crossing, expressed in money, that ninety per 
 cent, of the amount was to be attributed to loss of life 
 or to injury to lite, appraising human life at five 
 thousand dollars ; now, I slionld like to have you state 
 to the commissioners just what you meant by saying 
 that ninety per cent, of your objection to grade-crossings 
 was danger to human life? 
 
 A. It was not with reference to any money value, 
 but to the relative percentage of importance which in 
 my own mind I gave to the question of safety, which I 
 think should be paramount in all railroad plans and nonrv 
 operations ; the first and most important thing is to in- 
 sure the safety of the operation; it is not a question of 
 dollars and cents, as I view it, but a question of life and 
 death, and no amount of money could compensate for 
 the knowingly setting a trap in which a train-load of 
 passengers should be precipitated ; when I therefore 
 stated ninety per cent., as the percentage of consideration 
 which told in my judgment against the grade-crossing, I 
 had reference to the percentage of moral weight, if I may 
 
708 
 
 3828 so speak, which I attributed to the importance of doing 
 away with the possibility of accident at that point. 
 
 Cross examination, by Mr. Locke : 
 
 Q. How many grade-crossings have you on the Erie 
 i'oad now, did you testify ? 
 
 A. I don't think I testified how many. 
 
 Q. Will you count them up ? 
 
 A. I could not do so without taking some little time, 
 2839 but I will state in round numbers that we have got eight 
 or ten, I think, on the line of the road, besides a number 
 in this city here. 
 
 Q. By Com. McAlpine : Q. These are grade-cross- 
 ings or other railroads ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that was wliat I understood, and that 
 was the question which I answered. 
 
 Q. By counsel, resuming : Q. You always examine 
 to see the annual report of the Erie Railway to the State 
 engineer, do you not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I have here the reports of 1877, 1878 and 1879, 
 was any person hurt at any crossing in either of those 
 years to your recollection ? 
 
 A. I think there are several, but I don't remember 
 the circumstances. 
 
 Q. They would be reported, would they not ? 
 
 2831 ^' '^^'^^ would. 
 
 Q. If no such facts appear in your report then you 
 must be mistaken, must you not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you conversant with an application in the 
 interests of the Erie Railway last year, or two years ago, 
 to lay tracks across this city down to the International 
 Bridge in the same manner and at the same time that 
 the Central made its application for its cross-town grant ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
Chamlte xj 709 
 
 Q. You know nothing about that? 5833 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you not ever hear or see any plans which 
 were presented to the common council by the Erie road, 
 asking for a grant across this city ? 
 
 A. I never saw those plans. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of such application ? 
 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. Then you were conversant with the fact that such 
 an application was made for right to lay your tracks ^^^^ 
 across all the streets in this city, between the east side 
 and the west side ? 
 
 A. 1 was advised of it, sir, after the application had 
 been made, only. 
 
 Q. Not until after? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then I suppose you sat right down upon it ? 
 
 A. My opinion was not asked, and I had nothing to 
 say about it. 
 
 Q. You have spoken of the proposed Central changes 
 at Eochester, do you know that there is a very severe 
 grade at Rochester? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which requires a pusher? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you not know that the main object of the pro- 
 posed changes at Rochester is to overcome that grade? ^335 
 
 A. I don't so understand it. 
 
 Q. All your pres-.nt tracks in Jersey City cross streets 
 at grade, do they not ? 
 
 A. They do. 
 
 Q. All your tracks at Binghamton cross at grade ? 
 
 A. No, sir; they don't; we are building at consider- 
 able expense a new bridge at Binghamton, for the pur- 
 pose of carrying the street under our track, and so 
 diminish the traffic across an adjoining street. 
 
2837 j^ Y 
 
 710 
 
 2836 Q. In one street there? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. All your tracks cross through Hornellsville at 
 grade, do they not ? 
 
 A. They do. 
 
 Q. At Attica and Owego ? 
 
 A. At Attica we are negotiating with the towns- 
 people to carry their streets under our track. 
 
 Q. There your grade will admit of it, will it not? 
 es, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, at all the other places, Owego and Waverly 
 and Port Jervis, and Paterson, and all those places, you 
 run through at grade, do you not ? 
 
 A. At Paterson we are expending a considerable sum 
 of money to carry the street under the track, we are 
 at present just beginning the work. 
 
 Q. To carry one street under ? 
 
 2838 ^- yf,^'f'- , 
 
 Q. All the other streets you cross at grade ? 
 
 A. We will take them one at a time and lower them 
 as we can. 
 
 Q. I supppse that this thing is rapidly developing 
 upon you, is it not, the necessity of not crossing rail- 
 roads at grade at all ? 
 
 A. The importance of it has grown upon me for 
 several years past. 
 3839 Q- Now, are you familiar with the system of rail- 
 roads in the west ? 
 
 A. I am. 
 
 Q. Take it in Ohio and in Indiana and in Iowa, 
 and do you know how the railroads come into Omaha 
 for instance ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know the Crest Line junction, for instance, 
 of the Baltimore and Ohio, and the C, C. C. and I.? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
Chanute x j 711 
 
 Q. Do you not know that everywhere in the West 3840 
 ninety-nine per cent, of all railroad crossings are grade- 
 crossings ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is quite true, and that is where I got 
 my original impressions. 
 
 Q. Do you not think that throughout the United 
 States to-day, at least ninety-nine per cent, of all rail- 
 road crossings are at grade ? 
 
 A. That is the fact. 
 
 Q. Do you not think that there is some foundation 3841 
 for some argument in favor of that, that could be based 
 upon the general system of railroads in the country, and 
 the necessity of their connecting with each other, so as 
 to make through lines to admit of consolidations and 
 business connections ? 
 
 A. That and chiefly original poverty ; poverty of the 
 railroads preventing them from going to the necessary 
 expense to make adequate ci'ossings. 
 
 Q. Do you know of ten crossings in the United 
 States which are over-head, where the grade does not 
 permit readily of an over-head crossing. Can yon 
 specify ten ? 
 
 A. I think I can, more than that; but it would take 
 me some little time to recall them. 
 
 Q. You know the sj'Stem of railroads here in the 
 city, you testify ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I do. og,o 
 
 Q. We have counted up twelve railroad intersections 
 in this vicinity ; do you know of but one where it is an 
 over-head crossing — your Erie International ? 
 
 A. I only know of one. 
 
 Q. Do you know of the Buffalo and Lockport cross- 
 ing of the Niagara Falls branch of the Central road at 
 Tonawanda? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is a grade-crossing ? 
 
712 
 
 2844 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. When was that put in ? 
 
 A. I think it was put in in 1879 or 1880. 
 
 Q. Now, the Buffalo and Lockport road is practically 
 a branch of the Ere railway, is it not ? 
 
 A. It was subsequently leased to the Erie Railway. 
 
 Q. You understood it was largely built by Erie capi- 
 tal, didn't you ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 2845 Q. Didn't you understand it was built in the interests 
 of the Erie Railway, and largely built with Erie capital? 
 
 A. No, sir ; the Erie capital was not furnished for 
 that road ; it was built with the expectation, on the part 
 of its owners, that they would eventually succeed in 
 leasing it to the Erie, which they did. 
 
 Q. It was built with that understanding ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that practically it was controlled in the inter- 
 '^°*" ests of the Erie Road from its inception, was it not ? 
 
 A. I don't think you could say that. 
 
 Q. Did you have anything to do with the laying out 
 of that road ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about it? 
 
 A. I know something about it, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the crossing at 
 
 Tonawanda? 
 «o47 
 
 A. I know something about that, I heard it discussed. 
 
 By Com. Clark : Q. Can you state what portion of 
 the accidents occurring at railroad crossings occur at 
 street crossings and at railroad crossings, annually ? 
 
 A. I could not state that in matter of proportion ; I 
 don't know. 
 
 Q. Could you approximate it ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I couldn't ; it would be a mere guess on 
 my part, and probably be inaccurate j statistics might 
 
Channte X] 713 
 
 readily be gathered from the reports, and the propor- 2848 
 tious ascertained. 
 
 Q. Do you consider the subject of terminal facilities 
 an important element in determining the grade at which 
 roads should run in (dties ? 
 
 A. Undoubtedly ; yes, sir ; for the traffic capacity of 
 our roads, now, is limited by their terminal facilities, 
 rather than their track facilities. 
 
 Mr. Locke offered in evidence a map of the Buffalo 
 Creek Reservation, in this locality, made in 1844, by ^°^° 
 Lovejoy & Emslie, showing a street laid out along the 
 southerly side of lot 185j as an extension of Sandusky 
 street beyond the tracks of the Lake Shore Railway. 
 
 Objected to by Mr. McMillan, on the ground that this 
 map is no evidence of a street having been laid out. 
 
 Map i-eceived in evidence as showing what is stated by 
 
 Mr. Locke. 
 
 Mr. Locke offered in evidence a deed conveying lot 
 
 2850 
 185 to the Buffalo and Erie Railway Co. 
 
 Received and marked Respondents' "Exhibit No. 27." 
 It is admitted for the purposes of this hearing that a 
 proposition has been made by Mr. Tillinghast, on behalf 
 of the New York Central and Hudson River R. R. Co. 
 to the Lackawanna Co., of the form embodied in a draft 
 of contract, produced here, and marked "Exhibit No. 
 30," and that the same is being held under consideration 
 by the Lackawanna Company; and that the tracks of 0851 
 the New York Central road on Ohio street are sub- 
 stantially as shown on the Buffalo City Map, at page 20. 
 Mr. Milburn : I desire to have a concession appear 
 here that the amended profile may be substituted for 
 the profile on the map annexed to the petition. We ask 
 to put this in evidence, and then to enter that conces- 
 sion on the minutes so far as we are concerned. It was 
 marked for identification, and I should like to have it 
 in the case. We may see fit to move to have the court 
 
714 
 
 2852 substitute it, or if the commissioners were to adopt it, to 
 have that particular action on the part of the commis- 
 sioners ratified. It is marked " Petitioner's Exhibit 
 No. 8." I should like to ask. Mr. Haven a question as 
 to this profile running under grade, and the question I 
 shall put to him is if it was the design of this map, on 
 the grade running westerly from the Lake Shore and 
 ooKo Erie crossing, to run it until it struck the grade of the 
 Lackawanna road, wherever that grade might be ? 
 
 Mr. Haven : That was the intention in making the 
 map, to intersect such a grade as they might finally 
 adopt, going west from Hamburgh street or Mackinaw 
 street, to run down to the intersection of their grade. 
 It was a profile or tracing paper, traced from their grade, 
 intending to intersect their grade. 
 
 Q. And stop there? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And joined there over at the point of intersec- 
 tion ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Locke : Whether it does or not, you are not 
 able to state ? 
 2855 A. No, sir ; it was intended to do that. 
 
 Mr. Locke : I oifer in evidence the profile of line 
 " A," as shown on petitioner's map. 
 
 Statement showing elevation of profile received, and 
 marked "Exhibit 26." 
 
 Evidence closed. 
 
715 
 
 PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT No. 5. 2856 
 
 BuFPAi.o, July 12, 1881. 
 Below is a correct statement, giving the number of 
 freight, including cattle cars, that arrived at and departed 
 from Buffalo station, in the year 1880: 
 
 1880. Eastward. Wbstwabd. 
 
 January 19,279 23,441 
 
 February 18,916 18,174 
 
 March 24,555 22,315 
 
 April 21,159 21,341 2857 
 
 May 18,823 19,741 
 
 June 21,700 22,836 
 
 July 27,355 26,515 
 
 August 26,045 26,478 
 
 September 21,974 22,147 
 
 October 24,223 20,697 
 
 November 21,339 23,095 
 
 December 23,339 22,735 
 
 2858 
 
 Totals 268,707 269,515 
 
 Grand total, 538,222 cars. 
 
 P. S. — In giving the above report, it shows on paper 
 
 simply as so many cars moving into and out of the 
 
 yards, but when we stop to consider the large amount 
 
 of work required to switch these cars and make them 
 
 into trains, working under difidculties that we have to 
 
 encounter, it is no wonder our yard is full of cars and 
 
 3859 
 trains, so often held out at Buffalo Creek. These delays 
 
 are principally caused by the N.Y., L. E. & W. Ry. using 
 
 the cross-over track at Erie transfer. So much of the 
 
 time, of course, we have to wait for the target, and then 
 
 take our chances wiien we get it — and in so many cars 
 
 moving, it takes but a short time to block our yards, and 
 
 then the large number of cars that have to be twice 
 
 switched across the cross-over track to get to the Erie 
 
 transfer tracks, is another matter which should be care- 
 
716 
 
 28G0 fully considered, in the advisability in making more 
 room for the dispensation for the Erie transfer freight. 
 If this could bo done it would give a much needed relief, 
 and prevent future accidents at the Erie cross-over. 
 Below you will please find the number of cars switched 
 to and from the Erie transfer tracks, etc., in the year 
 1880: 
 
 1880. East-wabd. West-ward. 
 
 Euu Througli by Transfer. Run Through by Transfer. 
 
 January. 1,174 271 2,251 596 
 
 ^ ^February.... 1,355 238 1,304 674 
 
 March 2,438 320 1,657 668 
 
 April 2,350 420 1,851 630 
 
 May 2,481 434 1,666 680 
 
 June 3,120 368 2,896 394 
 
 July 3,930 385 4,372 384 
 
 August 3,535 339 3,494 544 
 
 September . . 3,672 421 2,716 477 
 
 3853 October 3,372 404 2,828 505 
 
 November... 2,326 325 2,677 478 
 
 December . . . 2,388 336 2,715 321 
 
 Totals . . 32,141 4,261 30,433 6,351 
 
 Grand Total, 73,186 cars. 
 
 In adding the Erie and through business together, it 
 will give you the exact number of freight cars we have 
 to switch across the Erie cross-over tracks — that is the 
 3863 ^^S^^^^i" business — not counting the yard switching, in 
 taking cars to and from the Buffalo Creek Y for 
 B. C. and B., N. Y. & P. Ey. The total through, 
 538,222 cars, Erie transfer 73,186 cars, making a total 
 of 611,408 cars, being an average of 1,675 cars per day, 
 and for every hour in the day, sixty-nine cars, and for 
 ever minute in the year 1 9-60 cars. The object in re- 
 ducing the figures to show you the number of cars 
 that pass every minute, is an appeal for more room ; our 
 facilities at the Erie transfer are inadequate to the de- 
 
m 
 
 mauds of the business. When the Erie transfer and its 3864 
 platforms were built years ago, it was made for the 
 business of the B. & E. Ry.; at that time, when our busi- 
 ness was not one-fourth of what it is to-day, it answered 
 the purpose; and at that time the Erie Ry. were not 
 doing the business they are now; we could then get the 
 use of our tracks at Erie cross-over, but at the present 
 time hundreds of cars are passing daily over this great 
 thoroughfare, and tliis is the means of causing us so 
 much trouble, and prevents us from doing our worli, 3865 
 and causing, as I said in the beginning, a general 
 block and delaying our business at the Erie transfer, and 
 in yards. These suggestions are offered for your own 
 
 wise consideration. 
 
 Yours truly, 
 
 W. W. BUFFUM, 
 
 Agent for Company. 
 
 3866 
 
 PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT No. 10. 
 
 Prepared on Behalf of The Lake Shore Railway and 
 The Erie Railway. 
 
 Appeoximate Estimate of Lines " A " and " B " as 
 Located by the N. Y., L. & W. R. R. 
 
 Line " A," Excavation or Embankment — 
 
 3867 
 Between stations 210 and 240, cubic yards. . 8,160 
 
 Between stations 180 and 210, cubic yards. . 17,310 
 Between stations 165 and 180 cubic yards. . 7,755 
 Between stations 149 and 165, cubic yards. . 3,555 
 In approaches to Smith, Fitzgerald, Kath- 
 arine, Sidway, Mackinaw, Hamburg and 
 Alabama streets 6,860 
 
 Total cubic yards 43,640 
 
718 
 
 8868 Masonry — 
 
 In culverts near L. S. & M. S. Ry., cubic 
 
 yards 242.5 
 
 In two abutments at Buffalo River 370.0 
 
 In center pier for Buffalo River 157.0 
 
 In culverts and cattle-guards at Abbey 
 street, Smith street, Buffalo Creek Rail- 
 road, Fitzgerald, Katharine, Sidway, Mack- 
 inaw, Hamburg and Alabama streets. . . . 784.0 
 
 2869 
 
 Total cubic yards 1,553.5 
 
 Piling — 
 
 For abutments at Buffalo River, lin. ft 4,080 
 
 For center pier 1,170 
 
 Total lineal feet 5,250 
 
 2870 Timber— 
 
 Under abutments in center pier, Buffalo 
 River, F. B. M 36,100 
 
 Line " B "— 
 
 Excavation and embankment between sta- 
 tions 218 and 203, cubic yards 6,270 
 
 Between stations 218 and 229, cubic yards. . 1,914 
 3871 For Smith street and Abbott road 900 
 
 Total cubic yards 9,084 
 
 Masonry — 
 
 In culverts and cattle-guards at Smith street 
 
 and Abbott road, cubic yards 173 
 
719 
 
 3873 
 Appkoximate Estimate of Lines " A " and " B " as 
 
 Located by The Lake Shore Railway and by 
 
 The Erie Railway. 
 
 Line " A," Excavation or EvfibanTcment — 
 
 Between stations 229 and 210, cubic yards. . 68,527 
 Between stations 208 and 190, cubic yards. .107,387 
 Between stations 190 and 182, cubic yards. . 37,548 
 Between stations 176 and 148, cubic yards. . 74,343 3373 
 
 Approach to Abbey street, cubic yards 900 
 
 Extra in place of bridge, cubic yards 1,933 
 
 Total cubic yards 290,638 
 
 Masonry — 
 
 In two abutments at Buffalo River, cu. yds. . 1,773 
 
 In center pier, cubic yards 200 „;,»,. 
 
 In two abutments for B. C. R. R. bridge, cu. 
 
 yards 1,400 
 
 In two abutments for Smith street, cu. yds. . . 1,160 
 In two abutments, N. Y., L. E. and L. S. & 
 
 M. S. R. R., cubic yards 1,773 
 
 In four piers, cubic yards 800 
 
 In trestle-piers, cubic yards 72 
 
 In two abutments, Katharine street, cu. yds. 1,883 
 
 In two abutments, Sidway street, cubic yards, 1,463 3875 
 
 In two abutments, Mackinaw and Hamburg 
 
 streets, cubic yards 1,539 
 
 In one pier, Mackinaw and Hamburg streets, 
 
 cubic yai'ds 283 
 
 In two abutments, Alabama street, cu. yards, 460 
 
 Total cubic yards 12,806 
 
720 
 
 2876 Piling— 
 
 For abutments at Buffalo River, lineal feet, 12,960 
 For center pier at Buffalo River, lineal feet, 2,250 
 Trestle from station 229 to 211, lineal feet. . 24,000 
 Trestle from station 190 to 207, lineal feet. . 27,000 
 Trestle from station 181 to 191, lineal feet. . 15,000 
 Trestle from station 157 to 175, lineal feet. . 25,200 
 
 Total lineal feet 106,410 
 
 2877 
 
 Timber — 
 
 Under abutments and center piers at Buffalo 
 
 River, F. B. M . 108,456 
 
 In trestle, F. B. M 586,600 
 
 Total Ft. B. M 694,056 
 
 Bridges, other than those which are common to both 
 2878 lines — 
 
 One at Smith street, length, feet 55 
 
 One at Buffalo Creek R. R., length, feet 105 
 
 One at L. S. & M. S. Ry., length, feet 125 
 
 One at N. Y., L. E. & W. R. R., length, feet, 100 
 Two at Fitzgerald street, length, feet, each.. . 63 
 
 One at Katharine street, length, feet 63 
 
 One at Sidway street, length, feet 63 
 
 Two at Mackinaw and Hamburg sts., length, 
 
 feet, each 127|- 
 
 One at Alabama street, length, feet 72 
 
 Trestle (iron) between Erie and L. S., liu. ft. 220 
 
 Line " B," Excavation or Embankment — 
 
 Between stations 213 and 230, cubic yards. . .33,932 
 Between stations 202 and 213, cubic yards. . .40,160 
 
 Total cubic yards 74 100 
 
721 
 
 Masonry — 3880 
 
 lu two abutments over Smith street, cu. yds. 930 
 In two abutments over Abbott road, cu. yards, 460 
 
 3881 
 
 Total cubic yards 1,390 
 
 Piling — 
 
 For trestle from station 189 to 203, except 
 Smith street and Abbott road, lineal feet. .18,000 
 
 Timber — 
 
 In trestles, F. B. M 121,152 
 
 Bridges, other than those which are common to both 
 lines — 
 
 One at Smith street, length, feet 75 
 
 One at Abbott road, length, feet 95 
 
 NOTB.— No calculation made in any case for earth excavation in gggg 
 foundations. 
 
 SUMMARY 
 
 Of Approximate Estimate of Lines "A" and "B " as 
 Located by the N. Y., L. & W. Ry. and as Pro- 
 posed BY THE N. Y., L. E. & W. and L. S. & M. S. 
 
 Line "■A." 
 
 As located by As proposed by 
 N. Y., L. E. Erie and Lake 
 & W. Blioi-e. 
 
 Excavation, . . 43,640 c. yds. 290.6.38 c. yds. 
 
 Masonry, 1,5.93 " 12.806 " 
 
 Piling 5,2.50 ft. 106,410 ft. 
 
 Timber, 36,100 B.M. 694,056 B. M. 
 
 Bridges 1-55 ft. long, 
 
 ■' 1-105 " 
 
 " 1 125 '* 
 
 Difl'erence. 
 
 246,998 c. yds 
 11.253 " 
 101,160 lin. ft. 
 657,966 F. B.M 
 
 E: 
 vo 
 N, 
 W 
 & 
 pr 
 te 
 . ©25 c. 
 @.$8.00. 
 
 @;wc. 
 
 [.C« $30.00 
 ..(a.. 60.00 
 .© 93.00 
 . .©100.00 
 .© 90.00 
 .© 63.110 
 
 .r./'iio.oo 
 
 .("■ 70.00 
 .® 36.00 
 
 Etra cost in- 
 
 Ived by the 
 
 , Y., L. E. & 
 
 . and L. S. 
 
 M. S. E. E. 
 
 oposed al- 
 
 ration. 
 
 $ 61,749.50 
 
 90,024.00 
 
 30,348.00 
 
 19,738.68 
 
 3,300.00 
 
 9,660.00 
 
 12,500.00 
 
 " 1 100 " 
 
 
 
 9,000.00 
 
 " 4 63 " 
 
 
 
 15,876.00 
 
 " 2- mVi " 
 
 " 1- 72 
 
 Iron trestle 220 lin ft 
 
 
 
 28,050.00 
 
 
 
 5,040.00 
 7,920.00 
 
 Total 
 
 
 
 $393,206.18 
 
 3888 
 
722 
 2884 
 
 Line "^." 
 
 Excaviition 9,084 c. yds. 74,100 c. yds. 6,506 c. yds @25 c. 
 
 Masonry, 173 " 1,890 " 1,217 " ©$8.00. 
 
 Piling 18,000 lin. ft. @30 c. 
 
 % 16,254.00 
 9,736.00 
 5,400.00 
 
 Timber, 121,150 P. B. M.(a$30.00 
 
 Bridges, 1 75 ft. long, @$72.00 
 
 " 195 " 88.00 
 
 3,634.60 
 5,400.00 
 8,360.00 
 
 $ 48,784.60 
 
 Total, 
 
 Total both lines, 
 
 $341,990.68 
 
 
 2885 
 
 PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT No. 11. 
 
 Approximate Estimate of Altered Line with Line 
 "A," Abandoned East op its Intersection with 
 Line "B." 
 
 80,452 cubic y'ds. earth embankment at 25c. % 20,113.00 
 
 7331 cubic yards masonry at $ 8 58,648.00 
 
 2886 30,000 lineal feet piling at 30c 9,000.00 
 
 262,000 feet B. M. timber at $ 30 7,860.00 
 
 125 feet iron bridge at 100 12,500.00 
 
 100 « « « at 90 9,000.00 
 
 252 " " " 4 spans of 63 ft. at 63 15,876.00 
 
 255 ft. iron bridge, 2 spans of 127^ ft. at 110 28,050.00 
 
 72 feet " " at 70 5,040.00 
 
 220 iron trestle at 36 7,920.00 
 
 2887 
 
 Line "A," to intersect with Line " B," $174,007.00 
 
 Add Line " B," 48,784.50 
 
 Total, $ 222,791.50 
 
 Note — The cost of the low grade line is deducted. 
 
723 
 
 PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT No. 12. ^^^^ 
 
 Estimate Altered Route Lackawanna Railroad ■ 
 Crossing the Erie and Lake Shore Rail- 
 roads. 
 
 14,480 cubic yards, earth embankment, at 
 
 25c $ 3,620.00 
 
 733 lineal feet iron bridges ; 58,529.00 
 
 5,530 cnbic yards, masonry in piers, at $8. . 44,240.00 
 
 1,000 cubic yards masonry in trestle piers, ^^^^ 
 
 at $10 10,000.00 
 
 6,185 lineal feet iron trestle, ave. at $32. . . 197,920.00 
 
 Total line "A" exclusive Buii'alo Creek 
 
 Bridge ties and rail $314,309.00 
 
 Zine "S " sam.e conditions. 
 
 6,800 cubic yards, earth embankment, at 3890 
 
 25c $ 1,700.00 
 
 2,026 lineal feet iron trestle, at $28 56,728.00 
 
 162 lineal feet iron bridge 13,950.00 
 
 275 cnbic yards masonry in bridge piers, 
 
 at$ .' 2,200.00 
 
 300 cubic yards masonry in trestle piers, 
 at $10 3,000.00 
 
 Total Line «B." $ 77,578.00 3891 
 
 Add Line "A" 314,309.00 
 
 Total $391,887.00 
 
 Deduct for lines "A" and " B " on Lacka- 
 wanna location 26,987.00 
 
 Increased cost of elevated lines "A" and 
 «B," exclusive of Buffalo Creek Bridge, $364,900.00 
 
724 
 
 2892 PETITIONEE'S EXHIBIT No. 13. 
 
 Estimate of Alteeed Lines with Line "A," Aban- 
 doned East of its Intersection with Line " B." 
 
 4880 cubic y'ds earth embankment at 25 cts. $ 1,220.00 
 
 2046 lineal feet iron trestle, ave )5 32 65,472.00 
 
 72 " " " bridge, at 70 5,040.00 
 
 2 spans iron bridge 127^ ft. 255 ft. at 1 10 28,050.00 
 
 63 lineal feet iron bridge at 63 3,969.00 
 
 63 " " " " " 63 3,969.00 
 
 9QQQ ' 
 
 80 " " " " " 75 6,000.00 
 
 125 " " " " " 100 12,500.00 
 
 100 " " " " •' 90 9,000.00 
 
 4670 en. yds. masonry in piers at 8 37,460.00 
 
 400 " " '' for trestle at 10 4,000.00 
 
 Total of Line "A,'' west of its intersection 
 
 with Line " B." $176,680.00 
 
 Add Line " B," 77,578.00 
 
 2894 
 
 Total ^254,258.00 
 
 Deduct proportion of low grade line, 14,258.00 
 
 Total cost, $240,000.00 
 
 PETITIONEE'S EXHIBIT NO. 30. 
 
 2g This agreement, made this twentieth day of July, 
 
 1881, between The New York Central and Hudson 
 Eiver E. E. Co., as party of the first part " hereinafter 
 referred to as ' The Central,' and The Now York, Lack- 
 awanna and Western Eailway Co., as party of the sec- 
 ond pa]-t, and hereinafter referred to as the ' Lacka- 
 wanna' " : 
 
 Witnesseth, that the consideration of the covenants 
 hereinafter contained on the part of the Lackawanna, to. 
 be kept and performed, the Central hereby grants to the 
 
726- 
 
 Lackawanna the right to cross with two tracks the Can- 289^ 
 tral's roadway and tracks at the three points of intersec- 
 tion of the two roads as shown npon the Lackawanna 
 map, filed in the office of the Clerk . of the County of 
 Erie, State of New York, on the nineteenth of May, 
 1881, npon the following terms and conditions and man- 
 ner described in this : 
 
 First. The crossing of the main line of the Central, 
 near the city line at East Buifalo, shall be an over-head 
 crossing upon an iron bridge, with span that will permit 2897 
 eight tracks passing under it of usual width between 
 centers. The bottom of the bridge to be at least 
 nineteen feet above the top of the Central's rails or 
 tracks. The location of the crossing and piers, espe- 
 cially the latter to be agreed upon between the chief 
 engineers of the parties hereto. 
 
 Second. The crossing of the Niagara Falls branch 
 line of the Centi'al at the point described on said map, 
 north of North Buffalo station, shall be by an over-head ^^^^ 
 crossing upon an iron bridge, with spans that will per- 
 mit of at least six tracks under them, of usual width be- 
 tween centers. The bottom of the bridge to be at least 
 nineteen feet above the top of the Central's rails. The 
 location of the piers to be agreed upon between the chief 
 engineers of the parties hereto. 
 
 The Lackawanna shall have the right on its proposed 
 Ohio street branch line to cross the Central's lands and 
 tracks, at a point midway between Elk street and Miami 
 and Ohio streets, crossing at a suitable elevation by iron 
 bridges, over Chicago, Moore and Michigan streets and over 
 the Central's lands and tracks, about three hundred and 
 forty feet in distance, with not less than three spans of 
 iron bridge, with at least sixteen feet in the clear be- 
 tween the top of the Central's rails and the bottom of 
 the bridge irons. It being agreed that the location of 
 the piers and length of the spaiis of each bridge for the 
 
726 
 
 2900 Ohio street line's crossings shall be made so as to dam- 
 age the Central's property and facilities the least that is 
 possible, and witli that view the location of and width of 
 the piers and distance apart, together with the manner 
 and form of construction and erection, shall be approved 
 by the chief engineer of the party of the first part. 
 
 Fourth. The Lackawanna shall pay the cost and ex- 
 pense of any alteration of the Central's tracks, buildings 
 and fixtures, made necessary to enable compliance with 
 
 2901 the provisions of the contract — and as the crossings at 
 East Buff^alo, and upon the Ohio street line are to be 
 over freight and car-storage yards and tracks, the 
 Lackawanna agrees to provide tight floors on the bridges 
 at those crossings, to protect the ears and property that 
 may be under them on the Central's yards and tracks 
 from damage by fire from coals and ashes dropping from 
 the locomotive while passing over the bridges, and 
 agrees to pay any damage from fire so caused by reason 
 of defective fire-boxes, grates and ash-pans of locomo- 
 tives crossing the bridge. 
 
 Fifth. If at any time hereafter the Central shall, by 
 reason of the exigencies of its business, be required to 
 construct additional tracks, the additional bridges 
 needed to permit of the operation of such additional 
 tracks shall be constructed and paid for by the Lack- 
 avFanna. 
 
 Sixth. And subject to the provisions of the fourth 
 and fifth sections, the Lackawanna shall be authorized 
 in perpetuity to operate its railroad over the elevated 
 crossings of the Central, in the manner hereinbefore 
 mentioned, provided the Lackawanna shall and does and 
 continues to keep the bridges in good safe order and 
 condition, and properly provides against the danger of 
 fires at the crossings of the East Buffalo and Ohio street 
 yards. 
 
 Seventh. In consideration of the premises, the Lack- 
 
727 
 
 awanna hereby agrees that it will change its proposed 3904 
 line and grade of the Ohio street brancli line, and not 
 seek to cross the Central's lands or ti'acks at grade on 
 Ohio or Miami streets. 
 
 EESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT No. 7. 
 
 Prepared on Behalf of The Lackawanna E. R. Co. 
 
 Approximate Estimates of Lines " A " and " B " as 
 Located by the N. Y., L. & W. R. E. 
 
 Line "A," Excavation or Embankment — 
 
 Between stations 210 and 240, cubic yards. . 8,160.00 
 Between stations 180 and 210, cubic yards. . 17,310.00 
 Between stations 165 and 180, cubic yards. . 7,755.00 
 Between stations 149 and 165, cubic yards. . 3,555.00 
 In approaches to Smith, Fitzgerald, Katha- 
 rine, Sidway, Mackinaw, Hamburgh and 
 Alabama streets 6,860.00 
 
 Total cubic yards 43,640.00 
 
 Masonry — 
 
 In culverts near L. S. & M. S. R. R., cubic 
 yards 242.50 
 
 In two abutments at Buffalo River, cubic 
 
 yards 370.00 3907 
 
 In center pier for Buffalo River, cubic yards 157.00 
 
 In culverts and cattle-guards at Abbey street. 
 Smith street, Buffalo Creek R. R., Fitz- 
 gerald, Katharine, Sidway, Mackinaw, 
 Hamburgh and Alabama streets, cubic 
 yards 784.00 
 
 Total cubic yards 1,553.50 
 
728 
 
 2908 JPilrng^ 
 
 For abutments at Buffalo Eiver, lin. feet. . 4,080.00 
 For center pier, lin. feet 1,170.00 
 
 Total lin. feet 5,250.00 
 
 Timber — 
 Under-abutments and center pier of Buffalo 
 
 River, ft. B. M. 36,100.00 
 
 2909 Line ''B," Excavation or Embankment — 
 
 Between stations 218 and 203, cubic yards. . 6,270.00 
 
 Between stations 218 and 229, enbic yards. . 1,914.00 
 For Smith street and Abbott road, cubic 
 
 yards 900.00 
 
 Total cubic yards 9,084.00 
 
 Masonry — 
 
 In culverts and cattle-guards at Smith street 
 
 2910 and Abbott road, cubic yards 173.00 
 
 Estimates of Likes " A " and " B " as Proposed by 
 N. Y., L. E. & W. R. R. 
 
 Excavation or Embankment — 
 
 Between stations 239 and 210, cubic yards. . 68,527.00 
 
 Between stations .208 and 190, cubic yards. .107,387.00 
 
 Between stations 190 and 182, cubic yards. . 37,548.00 
 
 Between stations 176 and 148, cubic yards. . 74,343.00 
 2911 
 
 Approach to Abbey street, cubic yards. . . . 1,933.00 
 
 Total cubic yards 289,738.00 
 
 Masonry — 
 
 In two abutments at Buffalo River, cubic 
 
 yards 1,773.00 
 
 In center pier, at Buffalo Rivei-, cubic yards 440.00 
 In two abutments for Buffalo Creek E. R. 
 
 bridge, cubic yards 1,400.00 
 
729 
 
 In two abutments for Smith street, cubic 2913 
 
 yards 1,222.00 
 
 In two abutments for N. Y., L. E. & W., 
 M. S. R. R., Fitzgerald street, cubic 
 yards 1,773.00 
 
 In five piers for N. Y., L. E. & W., M. S. 
 
 R. R., cubic yards. 2,220.00 
 
 In two abutments for bridge over Katha- 
 rine street, cubic yards 1,883.00 
 
 In two abutments for bridge over Sidway 2913 
 
 street, cubic yards 1,463.00 
 
 In two abutments for bridge over Mackinaw 
 
 and Hamburgh streets, cubic yards 1,539.00 
 
 In one pier for bridge over Mackinaw and 
 Hamburgh streets, cubic yards 283.00 
 
 In two abutments for bridge over Alabama 
 
 street, cubic yards 460.00 
 
 Total cubic yards 14,456.00 ^^^^ 
 
 Jailing — 
 
 For abutment at Bufialo River, lin. feet 12,960.00 
 
 For center pier at Buffalo River, lin. feet. . 2,250.00 
 
 For trestles from station 229 to 211, lin. feet 26,352.00 
 
 For trestles from station 190 to 207, lin. feet 28,638.00 
 
 For trestles from station 181 to 190, lin. feet 19,683.00 
 
 For trestles from station 157 to 175, lin. feet 25,704.00 
 
 ^ 2915 
 
 Total lin. feet ..115,587.00 
 
 Timber— 
 Under-abutments and center pier at Buffalo 
 
 River, ft. B. M 108,456.00 
 
 In trestle, ft. B. M 585,600.00 
 
 Total ft. B. M 694,056.00 
 
730 
 
 3916 Bridges— 
 
 Others than those that are common to both 
 
 lines ; one at Smith street, ft. span ... 55 
 
 One at Buffalo Creek E. R., ft. span 105 
 
 Six at L. S & M. S. and N. Y., L. E. & W. 
 
 {.'i spans (S, 140 
 2 spans @ 100 
 1 span (b 80 
 
 One at Katharine street, ft. span 63 
 
 oq-, ~ One at Sid way street, ft. span 63 
 
 Two at Mackinaw and Hamburgh streets, 
 
 ft. span V2il^ each 
 
 One at Alabama street, ft. span 72 
 
 Line " B," Excavation or Embankment — 
 
 Between stations 213 and 230, cubic yards. . 33,932.00 
 Between stations 202 and 213, cubic yards. . 40,160.00 
 
 Total cubic yards 74,092.00 
 
 2918 2fasonry— 
 
 In two abutments for bridge over Smith 
 
 street, cubic yards 930.00 
 
 In two abutments for bridge over Abbott 
 
 road, cubic yards 460.00 
 
 Total cubic yards 1,390.00 
 
 Piling — 
 
 For trestle from station 189 to 203, except 
 -yi9 Smith street and Abbott road, lin. feet. . 18,000.00 
 
 Timber — 
 
 In trestle, ft. B. M 121,152.00 
 
 Bridges — 
 
 Others than those that are common to both 
 
 lines ; one at Smith street, ft. span 75 
 
 One at Abbott road, ft. span 95 
 
 Note — No calculation made in any case of the material 
 excavated for foundations. 
 
731 
 
 SUMMAEY 
 
 2930 
 
 Of Approximate Estimate of Lines "A" and " B " as 
 Located by the N. Y., L. & W. Ry., and as Pro- 
 posed BY the N. Y., Lake Erie & W. and L. S. & 
 M. S. Railroads. 
 
 Zine "^." 
 
 Extra cost in- 
 volved by the 
 As located by As proposed by N. Y., L, B. & 
 
 N. Y„ L. E. N. Y., L. E. W. and L. S. 
 
 & W. andL. S. &M. Difference. & M. S. Ey. 
 
 S. R. K. proposed al- 
 
 teration, inoi 
 
 Excavation....43,640.00c. yds. 2S9 700.00 c. yds. 246,060.00 c. yds. $ 98,484.00 iy'ii 
 
 Masonry 1,553.00 " 14,456.00 " 12,903.00 " 141,9.33.00 
 
 Piling 5,260.00 lin. ft. 115-687.00 lin. ft. 110,337.00 lin. ft. 88,101.10 
 
 Timber 36,100.00 ft. B. M. 694,056.00ft. B.M.657,966.001t. B. M. 29,608.02 
 
 Bridges 1 of 55 ft. span, 1@ 55 ft. span, 3,400.00 
 
 1 of 105 ft. span, 1 @ 105 ft. span, 10,500.00 
 
 " 3 of 140 ft. span, 3 @ 140 ft. span, 43,000.00 
 
 " 2 of 100 ft. span, 2® 100 ft. span, 20,000.00 
 
 " . 1 of 80 ft. span, 1 @ 80 ft. span, 7.O0O.OO 
 
 " ... 2 of 68ft. span, 2® 63ft. span, 8,800.00 
 
 " . 2 of ia7>i ft. span, 2 @ 127X ft. span, 24,000.00 
 
 " 1 of 72 ft. span, 1 @ 72 ft. span, 6,500.00 
 
 Total 1424,266.12 
 
 Zine "^." 
 
 Excavation.... 9,084.00 c. yds. 74,100.00 c. yds. 65,016.00 c. yds. $26,006.40 
 
 Masonry 173.00 " 1,890.00 " 1,217.00 " 13,387.00 
 
 PiUnK 18,000.00 lin. ft. 18,000.00 lin. ft. 6,400.00 0000 
 
 Timber 121,150.00 ft. B. M. 121,150.00 ft. B. M. 540.75 ^''^ 
 
 Bridges 1 of 76 ft. span, 76 ft. span, 7,000.00 
 
 " 1 of 95 ft. span, 95 ft. span, 9,500.00 
 
 Total $ 66,746.15 
 
 RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT No. 26. 
 
 Line " A.' 
 
 DilTerence in 
 feet between 
 ground and 
 grade line of 
 located line. 
 Top of rail. 
 
 Stations. 
 
 150 ; 3.2 
 
 151 3.5 
 
 152 3.8 
 
 Difference in 
 feet between 
 ground and 
 grade line of 
 amended lo- 
 cation. Top 
 of rail. 
 
 3.0 
 
 4.0 
 6.0 
 
 Difference in 
 feet between 
 the two 
 grade lines, 
 located and 
 amended- 
 Amended 
 line below lo- 
 cated line. 
 
 —2.5 
 —1.5 
 
 + 
 
 2923 
 
 153 4.3 
 
 154 4.5 
 
 155 4.5 
 
 7.2 
 
 9.0 
 
 10.5 
 
 Amended line 
 above loca- 
 ted line. 
 
 + 1.20 
 + 2.3 
 + 3.8 
 
732 
 
 292i 156 4.7 11.4 + 5.0 
 
 157 5.0 1.3.0 + 6.0 
 
 158 5.2 14.0 + 7.4 
 
 159 5.5 16.0 + 8.4 
 
 160 5.6 17.0 flO.O 
 
 161 6.5 18.3 +11.0 
 
 162 4.7 19.0 +12.0 
 
 163 4.5 22.0 +13.2 
 
 164 ... 4.5 22.2 +16.0 
 
 2925165 5.0 22.2 +16.0 
 
 166 4.5 23.5 +17.0 
 
 167 6.7 25.5 +18.0 
 
 168 6.7 27.0 +19.0 
 
 169 7.1 29.0 +20.0 
 
 170 6.8 29.0 +21.0 
 
 171 6.5 29.0 +22.0 
 
 172 6.6 30.0 +22.8 
 
 173 6.5 32.0 +23.8 
 
 ^926^74 6.5 33.0 +24.5 
 
 175 7.0 34.2 +25.5 
 
 176 7.6 35.8 +26.5 
 
 177 (Branch ] 1.5 32.0 +26.0 
 
 178 {Tracks f 1.5 30.0 +25.7 
 
 179 9.6 34.0 +25.4 
 
 ( Main track ) L. S. & M. S. Located Line. 
 
 180 -l Michigan V 0.0 35.0 +25.5 
 
 ( Southern, ) L. S. & M. S. Amended Location. 
 
 2927 181 7.6 28.0 +25.4 
 
 182 6.5 36.0. +26.6 
 
 183 6.5 33.0 +25.0 
 
 184 6.5 32.0 +24.1 
 
 185 6.5 31.0 +28.1 
 
 186 6.0 30.0 +22.1 
 
 187 5.7 28.0 +21.0 
 
 188 5.5 27.0 +20.1 
 
 189 5.6 25.5 +19.1 
 
 190 4.5 26.0 +19.1 
 
733 
 
 191 3.7 26.0 +19.13938 
 
 192 6.5 28.0 +19.2 
 
 193 7.5 28.0 +19.3 
 
 194 7.2 28.0 +19.4 
 
 195 5.8 27.0 +19.5 
 
 196 5.3 27.0 +19.6 
 
 197 5.0 27.0 +19.7 
 
 198 5.4 28.0 +19.8 
 
 199 6.0 26.5 +19.9 
 
 200 6.0 27.0 +20.0 3939 
 
 201 6.5 27.0 +20.0 
 
 202 6.0 27.5 +20.0 
 
 203 5.5 27.0 +20.0 
 
 204 5.5 27.2 +20.0 
 
 205 5.0 21.3 +20.0 
 
 206 5.0 28.0 +19.8 
 
 207 5.3 26.0 +19.6 
 
 208 27.0 26.0 +19.4 
 
 [Buffalo^ ^930 
 
 210 7.0 41.0 +19.4 
 
 211 6.0 26.5 +19.4 
 
 212 5.8 26.0 +19.0 
 
 213 5.0 24.0 +18.3 
 
 214 7.0 25.5 +17.4 
 
 215 5.5 24.0 +17.0 
 
 216 7.0 24.0 +16.3 
 
 217 8.0 24.5 +16.7^''^^ 
 
 218 8.0 24.0 +15.0 
 
 219 5.0 21.5 +14.3 
 
 220 4.5 18.2 +13.6 
 
 221 3.5 18.0 +12.8 
 
 222 2.0 16.0 +12.0 
 
 223 3.0 15.0 +11.6 
 
 224 4.3 16.0 +10.6 
 
 225 5.0 16.5 + 9.7 
 
 209 30.0 |^i;r [50.0 +19.4 
 
734 
 
 3932 226 
 
 3.0 
 
 16.0 ' 
 13.0 
 
 + 9.0 
 
 227 
 
 2.5 
 
 + 8.6 
 
 228 
 
 3.0 
 
 12.0 
 
 + 8.0 
 
 229 
 
 3.0 
 
 11.0 
 
 + 7.3 
 
 230 
 
 2.5 
 
 10.8 
 
 + 6.7 
 
 231 
 
 2.5 
 
 9.2 
 
 + 6.0 
 
 232 
 
 2.0 
 
 9.0 
 
 + 5.3 
 
 333 
 
 2.0 
 
 8.0 
 
 + 4.6 
 
 234 
 
 2.0 
 
 7.6 
 
 + 4.0 
 
 2933 235 
 
 2.5 
 
 7.0 
 6.0 
 
 + 3.3 
 
 236 
 
 3.0 
 
 + 2.8 
 
 237 
 
 1.5 
 
 5.0 
 
 + 2.0 
 
 238 
 
 1.5 
 
 4.0 
 
 + 1.3 
 
 239 
 
 1.5 
 
 4.0 
 
 + 0.7 
 
 240 
 
 1.5 
 
 3.0 
 
 + 0.0 
 
 
 Line " 
 
 B." 
 
 
 2934 
 
 stations. 
 
 Located line. 
 Difference in 
 feet between 
 ground and 
 grade line. 
 Top of rail. 
 
 Amended location. 
 Difference in feet 
 between ground 
 and grade line. 
 Top of I'ail. 
 
 Difference in 
 feet between 
 tlie two grade 
 lines, located 
 and amended. 
 
 183 + 94 
 
 7.0 
 
 31.5 
 
 + 24.8 
 
 184 
 
 7.2 
 
 31.3 
 
 + 24.5 
 
 185 
 
 7.0 
 
 30.3 
 
 + 23.5 
 
 186 
 
 7.0 
 
 29.0 
 
 + 22.5 
 
 187 
 
 6.5 
 
 28.0 
 
 +21.5 
 
 188 
 
 6.5 
 
 27.0 
 
 + 20.5 
 
 189 
 
 ^^^^190 
 
 6.0 
 
 6.0 
 
 25.5 
 25.0 
 
 + 19.7 
 
 + 18.5 
 
 191 
 
 6.0 
 
 23.5 
 
 + 17.5 
 
 192 
 
 6.0 
 
 23.0 
 
 + 16.5 
 
 193 
 
 6.0 
 
 22.0 
 
 + 15.8 
 
 194 
 
 5.5 
 
 21.0 
 
 + 15.0 
 
 195 
 
 5.0 
 
 20.0 
 
 + 14.0 
 
 196 
 
 4.0 
 
 19.5 
 
 + 13.1 
 
 197 
 
 4.0 
 
 18.5 
 
 + 12.1 
 
 198 
 
 5.0 
 
 16.5 
 
 + 11.2 
 
735 
 
 199 4.0 16.0 +10.5 2936 
 
 200 5.0 15.0 + 9.7 
 
 201 4.0 14.0 + 8.8 
 
 202 2.0 13.0 + 7.9 
 
 203 2.5 12.0 + 7.0 
 
 204 3.0 11.8 + 6.1 
 
 205 4.0 11.0 + 5.2 
 
 206 4.0 10.0 + 4.3 
 
 207 4.0 8.5 + 3.5 
 
 208 2.0 7.5 + 2.2 2937 
 
 209 4.0 6.5 + 1.3 
 
 209+ 5.0 6.0 + 1.0 
 
 RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT No. 27. 
 
 This indenture, made the first day of Januai'y in the 
 year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty- 
 nine, between George R. Babcoclv and Mary B., his wife, onoc 
 of the city of Bnflfalo, party of the lirst part, and the 
 Buffalo and Erie Railroad Company, a corporation cre- 
 ated and existing by the laws of the State of New Yorii, 
 of the second part, witnesseth, that the said party of the 
 first part, for and in consideration of the sum of three 
 thousand and five hundred dollars, lawful money of the 
 United States of America, to them in Jiand paid by the 
 said party of the second pai't, the receipt whereof is 
 hereby confessed and acknowledged, have granted, bar- 3939 
 gained, sold, remised, released, aliened, conveyed and 
 confirmed, and l>y these presents do grant, bargain, sell, 
 remise, release, alien, convey and confirm, unto the said 
 party of the second part, and to its successors or assigns, 
 forever, all that certain piece or parcel of land situate, 
 lying and being in the thirteenth ward of the city of 
 Buffalo, county of Erie and State of New York, and 
 being known and distingnished upon Lovejoy and 
 Emslie's map and survey of a part of the Buffalo Creek 
 
736 
 
 2940 Reservation, adjoining the former boundaries of the said 
 city of Buffalo, as lot number (185) one hundred and 
 eighty-five, containing, according to said map and survey, 
 four acres and ninety one-hundredths of an acre, be the 
 same more or less subject, hov^ever, to the rights of the 
 Buffalo and State Line Railroad Company, in and to 
 one acre and tvs'enty-four one-hundredths of an acre of 
 said lot heretofore taken and used by said company for 
 the purposes of its road, also subject to the rights of the 
 
 3941 public in and to a certain highway, which lies upon the 
 southerly bounds of said premises, and known as San- 
 dusky street, and excepting and reserving all that part 
 of said lot number 185 lying westei-ly of a line distant 
 sixty-six feet easterly of the reservation line and paral- 
 lel therewith, and northerly of the southwesterly line of 
 the Buffalo and State Line Railroad Company's lands, 
 and also excepting and i-eserving all that part of said 
 lot number 185 lying westerly and southwesterly of the 
 
 ^942 lands of the said Buffalo and State Line Railroad Com- 
 pany, as the said last named two parcels of said lot, 
 hereby excepted and reserved, were conveyed by the 
 party of the first part to the Buffalo and New York City 
 Railroad Company, by deed bearing date December 22, 
 1852. 
 
 Together with all and singular the tenements, heredita- 
 ments, and appurtenances thereunto belonging, or in any- 
 wise appertaining, and the reversion and reversions, re- 
 mainder and remainders, rents, issnes and profits thereof; 
 and all the estate, right, title, interest, dower and right 
 of dower, claim and demand whatsoever, of the said 
 party of the first part, either in law or equity, of, in and 
 to the above bargained premises, with the said heredita- 
 ments and appurtenances: to have and to hold the said 
 premises, as above described, with the appurtenances, 
 unto the said party of the second part, and to its suc- 
 cessors and assigns forever. And the said George R. 
 
737 
 
 Babcock, for himself and for his heirs, executors and ad- 3944 
 ministrators, do covenant, grant, bargain and agree to 
 and with the said party of the second part, its successors 
 and assigns, that the above bargained premises, in the- 
 quiet and peaceable possession of the said party of the 
 second part, its successors and assigns, against all and 
 every person or pei-sons, lawfully claiming or to claim 
 the whole or any part thereof, he will forever warrant 
 and defend. 
 
 In witness whereof, the party of the first part, have ^^^^ 
 hereunto set their hands and seals the day and year first 
 above written. 
 
 Signed, sealed and delivered in presence of 
 
 (Kev. stamp, $3.60.) GeOKGE R. BaBCOCK, [l. S.J 
 
 Mary B. Babcock. [l. s.] 
 
 (Duly acknowledged January 1, 1869.) 
 
 2946 
 
 Opinion op the Commission. 
 
 McAlpine, Commissioner. 
 
 In the matter of the decision of the route for the cross- 
 ing of the New York, Lackawanna and Western Hail- 
 way Company of the railroad of the Lake Shore and 
 Micliigan Southern and of the New York, Lake Erie 
 and Western Railroad companies, at or near Sandusky 
 street, Buifalo, in which the commissioners have decided 2947 
 to affirm the original route of the respondent : 
 
 They consider that justice to the parties and to the 
 eventuality of an appeal, requires that a statement of the 
 reasons which have governed them in the making of 
 their decision should be given. 
 
 The original route proposed by the respondent was 
 laid over lands which were from two to seven feet below 
 the grades of their tracks, and crossed the two roads of 
 the petitioners at the same level of tracks. 
 
738 
 
 3948 The proposed altered route of the petitioners is nearly 
 two miles in length, but diverges only 150 feet at right 
 angles, and crosses the petitioners' roads at an elevation 
 of about twenty feet clear space, and requires an 
 embankmeiit or tressel-work of twenty to thirty feet in 
 height for a considerable part of the way over land near- 
 ly the same elevation as that of the original route. 
 
 The commissioners are of the opinion that the route 
 proposed by the petitioners will cause greater damage or 
 
 3949 injury to land than the route designated by the company 
 would cause, unless the subsequent commission should 
 decide upon an over-head crossing on the original route, 
 in which case the whole of the damage and injury to land, 
 including that which the petitioners have purchased for 
 the extension of tlieir yard, would be greater upon the 
 original route than upon the altered route. As the case 
 was presented to the commissioners they would be pro- 
 hibited by section 22 of the general railroad law from 
 adopting the altered route proposed by the petitioners. 
 
 They are also of tlie opinion that the proposed route 
 of the petitioners, which requires an increased elevation 
 of some twenty-one feet higher than the original route, 
 with its ascending and descending grades so near the 
 terminus of the respondent's road, will substantially 
 change the general route adopted by the respondent 
 for passing through that portion of the city to reach 
 its proposed terminus, and consequently that the com- 
 missioners are prohibited from adopting the altered 
 route. 
 
 The commissioners are also of the opinion that the 
 court has reserved to itself the authority to decide all of 
 the questions in regard to the manner of the crossing, and 
 in particular of deciding whether the same shall be made 
 by a grade or overhead crossing, as provided in section 
 28, sub div. 6 of the said act, and that we are not at 
 liberty to decide indirectly what the court has reserved 
 
739 
 
 and the law prescribes shall be done by another au- 3953 
 thority. 
 
 The obvious design of the petitioners by the long 
 route and small divergence of the altered route is to 
 obtain an overhead crossing by means of this board exer- 
 cising a duty which the law declares shall be performed 
 by another board. 
 
 The commissioners are of the opinion that another 
 board, appointed under section 28 of the said law, will „. 
 be at liberty to direct that an over-head crossing shall be 
 made at the route which had been adopted, and such an 
 order for an over-head crossing, built, as it might be, so 
 as to do no material injury, will relieve the petitioners 
 from nearly all of the objections which have been 
 offered, and that, therefore, their affirmation of the 
 original route will not bear onerously upon the use of 
 the petitioners' railroads, provided the new commission 
 shall direct that a suitable plan of bridge shall be made ^954 
 for the same, and therefore the commissioners are com- 
 pelled to affirm the original route. 
 
 A great deal of testimony and argument has been 
 introduced to show the increased danger to human lives 
 and limbs, damage to land and property, and the delays 
 of the crossing of the tracks of one railroad by those of 
 another on the same level. 
 
 To prevent the inferences that the commissioners by 
 their actions in this case have approved of a grade cross- 
 ing in preference to one over-head, they now state that in 
 their opinion no such grade crossing should be made 
 wherever the circumstances of the case will permit an 
 avoidance thereof. 
 
 The commissioners also deem it proper to state, that 
 many embarrassments would have been avoided in this 
 case if they had been authorized to have considered the 
 question as provided in section 28, as well as of section 
 
740 
 
 3956 22, of the said law, and still more so, if they had been 
 authorized to make some moderate modifications in 
 both or either of the routes presented. 
 
 State op New York, ) 
 County of Erie, ( " 
 
 I, Eobert B. Foote, Clerk of said County ol Erie, do 
 295^ hereby certity that I have compared the annexed copies 
 of the petition, notice and survey, map and profiles, and 
 the proofs of service tliereof, of the order of Mr. Justice 
 Barker, appointing commissioners, of the oath, decision, 
 certificate and opinion of the commissioners, of the 
 exhibits and testimony taken before the commissioners, 
 and of the notice of appeal from such decision with the 
 originals of the same, and their indorsements entered 
 and on file in this oflice, and find the same to be true 
 transcripts of and from said originals, and the whole of 
 ^^^° each thereof. 
 
 In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and 
 affixed the seal of said county, at Buffalo, this twentieth 
 day of September, 1881. 
 
 EOBERT B. FOOTE, 
 
 [l- s.] County Clerk. 
 
741 
 
 At a GeneralTerm of the Supreme Court, licld in and 3959 
 for the Fourth Judicial Department, at the Court 
 House, in the City of Eochester, in the County of 
 Monroe, on tlie twenty-eiglith day of October, 1881: 
 
 Present — Smith, P. J., and Hakdin and Dwight, J. J. 
 
 In the Matter of the Application of 
 THE NEW YOKfK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY, 
 FOK thb Appointment op Commission- 
 ers TO Examine the Proposed Route 
 
 THE NEW YORK.LACKAWANN A AND 
 WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANY, in 
 THE County op Erie and Sta'i-e op 
 New York, and the Route to which 
 IT IS Proposed to Alter the Same. 
 
 No. 2, 
 
 The New York, Lake Erie and Western Eailroad 
 Company having filed its petition in tliis proceeding, 2960 
 praying for the appointment of commissioners to exam- 
 ine the proposed route of the New York, Lackawanna 
 and Western Railway Company, in tlie County of Erie, 
 and the route to which it is proposed to alter the same, 
 and, upon the hearing of such petition, Delavan F. 
 Clark, Edward L. Stevenson, and William J. MoAlpine, 
 a practical civil engineer, having been appointed com- 
 missioners in accordance with the prayer tliereof, and 
 such commissioners after hearing the parties Iiaving, 
 pursuant to the statute in such case made and provided, 
 made, certified and filed tlieir decision and determina- 
 tion whereby they affirmed the route originally desig- 
 nated, and said The New York, Lake Erie and Western 
 Railroad Company, having within twenty days tliere- 
 after appealed to this court from such decision, and such 
 appeal having been brought on for aigutnent and argued 
 on a prior day of this term, and after hearing Mr. John 
 
742 
 
 2'-^i->'^ G. Milbnrn, of counsel for the appellant, and Mr. Slier- 
 man S. Rogers and Mr. Franklin D. Locke, of counsel 
 for the respondent, and due deliberation having been 
 had thereon : 
 
 Now, therefore, upon motion of Bowen, Rogers it 
 Locke, attorneys for the respondent, it is ordered and 
 adjudged : 
 
 That the decision and determination of said commis- 
 sioners be, and the same hereby is in all things affirmed, 
 and that the said route proposed by the said The New 
 York, Lackawanna and Western Railway Company be, 
 and the same hereby is affirmed, and that said appellant 
 pay to the attorney's for said respondent, the costs of 
 said appeal, as the same shall be adjusted. 
 
 2963 
 
 SFPREME COURT. 
 
 '1204: 
 
 In the Matter of the Application of 
 THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY, 
 FOR THE Appointment of (Commission- 
 EHS to Examine the Proposed Route, 
 Appellant, 
 of 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA AND 
 WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANY, ix 
 the County of Erie, New York State, 
 
 Respondent. 
 
 No. 2. 
 
 Please take notice, that the petitioner in the above- 
 entitled proceeding. The New York, Lake Erie and 
 Western Railroad Company, hereby appeals to the 
 Court of Appeals from the judgment and order of the 
 General Term of the Supreme Court therein, entered 
 in the Office of the 6iorii ^ tbr Oomily d' Erie, on the 
 
743 
 
 sixteenth day of November, 1881, which order and 2965 
 judgment affirms the decision and determination of tlie 
 commissioners appointed in said pi'oceeding ; and also 
 affirms tlie route proposed by tiie said respondent, The 
 New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway Com- 
 pany, with costs to be adjusted, and from the whole and 
 every part of said judgment and order. 
 Dated November 26, 1881. 
 
 SPRAGUE, MILBURN & SPRAGUE, 2967 
 
 Attorneys for the Petitioner and Appellant, 
 The New York, Lake Erie and Western Railroad Co., 
 377 Main street, Bufi'alo, N. Y. 
 
 To the Clekk of the County of Erie, and to Bowen, 
 Rogers & Locke, Esqs., Attorneys for the Respondent, 
 The New York, Lackawanna and Western Railway 
 Company ; Marshall, Clinton & Wilson, Attorneys 
 for The New York Life Insurance and Trust Company, gggs 
 Trustee ; Nelson K. Hopkins, Attorney for J. S. 
 Wadsworth Estate ; Gueene, McMillan & Gluck, 
 Attorneys for The Lake Shore & Michigan Southern 
 Railway Company, and E. (]. Hawks, Attorney tor 
 the City of Buftalo. 
 
 State of New Yoiuc, 
 Erie County Clerk's Office, 
 
 I, Robert B. Foote, clerk of said county, do hereby ^oeo 
 certify that I have compared the annexed copy papers 
 on appeal to General Term, and the map exhibits 
 thereto attached (filed in this office, October 8,1881), 
 order of General Term (filed November 16, 1881), no- 
 tice of appeal to the Conrt of Appeals (filed December S, 
 1881), andcop}' indorsements thereon, with the respective 
 originals thereof and their indorsements entered and on 
 fileJin Jjjjajiffice ; a nd fi nd the same to be true transcripts 
 
744 
 
 2I'T0 of and from tlie said originals, and the whole of eacli 
 
 thereof. 
 
 In witness whereof, I have hereto set my 
 
 [l. S.J hand and afSxed tlie seal of said county at 
 
 Buffalo, this 9th day of December, 1881. 
 
 J. E. EWELL, 
 
 Deputy Clerk. 
 
 SUPREME COURT. 
 
 Ix TRE Matter of the Application of 
 THE XEW YOKK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RATLHOAD COMPANY, 
 FOR THE APPOTXTMENT OF COMMISSION- 
 ERS TO Examine the Proposed Route 
 
 '2971 o^ 
 
 THE XEW YORK, LACKAWANNA AND 
 WESl'ERX RAILWAY COMPAXY, IN 
 THE City op Buffalo, 
 
 No. 1. 
 
 297 
 
 In the Matter of the Application of 
 THE LAKE SHORE AXD MICHWAN 
 SOQTHERX RAILWAY COMPANY, 
 FOR THE Appointment of Commission- 
 ers to Examine the Proposed Route 
 
 op 
 
 THE XEW YORK, LACKAWANNA AXD 
 WESTERX RAILWAY COMPANY, in 
 THE City of Buffalo. 
 
 In the Matter of the Application of 
 THE XEW YORK, LAKE ERIE AXD 
 or,;;; WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY, 
 fob the Appointment op Commission- 
 ers TO Examine the Proposed Route 
 
 THENEW YORK.LACKAWAXXA AND 
 WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANY. 
 
 No. 2. 
 
74r. 
 
 Ix THE Matter op the Application of 
 THE NEW YORK, LAKE ERIE AND 
 WESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY, 
 FOR THE Appointment of Commission- 
 ers TO Ex \MINE THE PROPOSED RoUTE 
 
 OF 
 
 THE NEW YORK, LACKAWANNA AND 
 WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANY, IN 
 THE County of Erie. 
 
 ?974 
 
 Wq, 3. 
 
 Appeals by the several Petitioners from the Decisions 
 of Commissioners appointed in the several Proceed- 
 ings above entitled. 
 
 Mr. IMcMiLLAN and Me. Milbuen,/o;' A2:>pellanfs. 
 Messes. Eogees & Locke, for Respondents. 
 
 DwiGHT, J. : 
 
 The appeals in these matters present to us for review -•''•^ 
 only the decision of the commissioners appointed in the 
 several applications under sec. 22 of the General Rail- 
 road Act, as amended hj' the act of 1871. (Laws of 
 1871, chap. 560, sec. 1.) 
 
 They do not present for review the order of the jus- 
 tice of this court, appointing such commissioners, and 
 therefore do not raise the question whether, in the lan- 
 guage of the statute, sufficient cause existed for such 
 appointment under sec. 22, or whether a full and com- 
 plete remedy and means of determining all the ques- 2976 
 tions involved as between railroad companies, one of 
 which seeks to carry its line across the line of the other, 
 was or was not provided by the legislature by subdi- 
 vision 6 of sec. 28 of the same act, as amended by the 
 act of 1880 (Laws of 1880, chap. 583, sec. 1). And it 
 was assumed or conceded on the argument, that the pro- 
 visions of the last mentioned statute (sec. 28) are still 
 availahlfi to^aULiiiM'' ■)**H4y|-t»t,withstanding the proceed- 
 
746 
 
 atlTT ings taken and determination had under sec. 22. Upon 
 these appeals we are restricted to a review of the de- 
 cision of the coininissioners affirming the route proposed 
 by the respondent in tlie petition, and are confined, as 
 the commissioners themselves vFere, to the single alter- 
 native in eacli case of affirming the route proposed bv 
 the respondent, or adopting that proposed by the peti- 
 tioners. , 
 
 The decision thus presented for review is, in each 
 
 •30, s (.j^gg^ (-hat of a commission composed of "three disinter- 
 ested persons, one of whom is a practical civil engineer," 
 who have personally examined the two proposed routes, 
 have taken voluminous testimony of experts and others 
 bearing upon the questions involved, and who have in 
 three of the cases unanimously, and in the other case bv 
 the judgment of a majority including that of the prac- 
 tical county engineer, affirmed the route proposed bj' 
 the respondents. This was, as by the statute it was re- 
 
 2979 quired to be, a decision only in favor of one as against 
 the other of the proposed routes. 
 
 In three of the cases the commissioners were unani- 
 mous in the opinion that a route, deviating to some ex- 
 tent from either of those proposed, would be more eli- 
 gible than either, but they had no power to decide in 
 favor of such a new route. In the first two cases, more- 
 over, the counnissioneis found themselves prevented, as 
 their opinion shows, from adopting the route proposed 
 
 2980 by the petitioners, whatever might have been their judg- 
 ment of its comparative merits, by the terms of the 
 statute under which they acted (sec. '22) which forbids 
 that any alteration shall be made " which shall cause a 
 greatei- damage or injury to lands than the route desig- 
 nated by the company would cause," the fact being 
 found by them that the route proposed by the petitioners 
 M'ould cause such greater injury than that proposed by 
 the respondents, unless the l ine ujpon ijie latter route 
 
747 
 
 should be carried over tlie tracks of i lid petitioners by 2981 
 an over-head crossing which was not the grade indicated 
 in the profile of the route so proposed. 
 
 No error of law is pointed ont on the pArt of the com- 
 missioners nor do we discover any ; and we do not feel 
 called upon, sitting here without the benefit of a per- 
 gonal examination of the. routes proposed, without the 
 aid of scientific advice, to substitute our judgment upon 
 questions of fact, involving difficult questions of engi- 
 neering for that of the practical civil engineer and his 
 associates who composed the commission. 9<i8-) 
 
 Whatever powers may be possessed and exercised by 
 a commission appointed under sec. 28 to change the lo- 
 cation, or grade or manner of the several crossings, it is 
 certain that neither we nor the commission, whose de^ 
 cision we are reviewing, have or had any power to alter 
 either of the proposed routes in either of these respects, 
 
 We are forced, therefore, acting within the very lim- 
 ited powers which we possess on these appeals, to an 
 affirmance of the several decisions of the commissioners 
 and the several routes affirmed by them. 
 
IKDEX. 
 
 ADDITIONAL TO FIRST INDEX OPPOSITE. 
 
 I'AGE. 
 
 Order of General Term 741 
 
 Notice of Appeal to Court of Appeals T4i 
 
 Opinion of General Term ; 744 
 
I K D E X. 
 
 Pass. 
 
 Notice of Appeal 1 
 
 Proof of Service 2 
 
 Admissions 33 
 
 Petition 27 
 
 Survey 34 
 
 Order appointing Commissioners 41 
 
 Oath of Commissioners 43 
 
 Decision of " 43 
 
 Opinion of " 737 
 
 Petitioner's Witnesses. 
 
 Testimony of James D. Hawks, 
 
 Octave Chanute, 
 
 Wm.W. BufEum, 
 
 Direct Examination 45 
 
 Cross " 50 
 
 Ke-direct " ....:. 59 
 
 Re-cross " 62 
 
 Re-direct " 67 
 
 Recalled 434 
 
 Cross " 444 
 
 Recalled 665 
 
 Cross 
 Re-direct 
 Direct 
 Cross 
 Re-direct 
 Recalled . 
 Cross 
 Direct 
 Cross 
 Re-direct 
 Re-CTOsa 
 Re-direct 
 _Sg-cross 
 
 672 
 674 
 68 
 85 
 100 
 705 
 708 
 107 
 181 
 145 
 150 
 153 
 153 
 
742 
 
 Page. 
 
 Testimony of Tracy W. Niles, Direct Examination 153 
 
 Cross ■' 161 
 
 Charles Latimer, Direct " 167 
 
 Cross " 181 
 
 Re-direct " 204 
 
 " " Re-cross " 206 
 
 Recalled 268 
 
 Cross " 272 
 
 Charles Hilton, Direct " 209 
 
 Cross " 223 
 
 Re-direct " 240 
 
 " " Re-cross " 244 
 
 Re-direct " 247 
 
 Wm. H. Courtney, Direct " 258 
 
 Cross " 260 
 
 Wm. P. Taylor, Direct " 261 
 
 Cross " 265 
 
 Wm. Daly, Direct " 281 
 
 Cross " 293 
 
 Richard G. Taylor, Direct " 307 
 
 Cross " 321 
 
 Re-direct " 329 
 
 " " Re-cross " 329 
 
 " " Re-diiect " 331 
 
 " " Re-cross " 332 
 
 " " Re-direct " 333 
 
 Jacob H. Linville, Direct " 337 
 
 " Cross " 354 
 
 Re-direct " 362 
 
 Re-cross " 365 
 
 Re-direct " 865 
 
 " Re-cross " 366 
 
 " Re-direct " 368 
 
 " " Re-cross " 368 
 
 " " Recalled 640 
 
 " " Cross " 659 
 
 " " Re-direct " 664 
 
 " William A. Haven, Direct " 369 
 
 " " Cross " 376 
 
 " " Re-direct " 386 
 
 Direct " 393 
 
 Cross " 396 
 
 Recalled 480 
 
743 
 
 Paoe. 
 
 Testimony of William A. Haven, Cross Examination 484 
 
 Recalled 640 
 
 Recalled 674 
 
 Cross " 676 
 
 Re-direct " 676 
 
 Re-cross " 677 
 
 Re-direct " 683 
 
 " " Re-cross " 685 
 
 Michael J. Griffen, Direct " 389 
 
 Cross " 393 
 
 " Ebeuezer Catlin, Direct " 398 
 
 Cross " 403 
 
 Re-direct " 405 
 
 " " Re-cross " 408 
 
 " John S. Hammond, Direct " 412 
 
 Cross " 437 
 
 " Recalled 455 
 
 " James Barrett, Direct " 458 
 
 Cross " 473 
 
 Re-direct " 475 
 
 Re-cross " 475 
 
 Re-direct " 477 
 
 " Jerry Gorman, Direct " 487 
 
 Cross " 487 
 
 Edward Clark, Direct " 489 
 
 " . Cross " 490 
 
 " Charles Walrath, Direct " 491 
 
 " " Cross " 506 
 
 " Peter Emslie, Direct " 509 
 
 << " Cross " 511 
 
 " James S. Lyon, Direct " 693 
 
 Cross " 701 
 
 RBSrONDENT'S WiTNBSSBS, 
 
 Testimony of R. Milford Barrian, Direct Examination 513 
 
 Cross " 534 
 
 Re-direct " 571 
 
 '< James Archabald, Direct " 578 
 
 Charles Shipman, Direct " 585 
 
 „ " Cross " 594 
 
 „ " Re-direct " 598 
 
 " Henry W. Box, Direct " 599 
 
 Cross " 603 
 
744 
 
 Pass. 
 
 Testimony of Alonzo B. Tanner, Direct Examination 613 
 
 Cross " 614 
 
 " George Vom Berge, Direct " 617 
 
 " " Cross " 621 
 
 Re-direct " 633 
 
 Asaph S. Bemis, Direct " 634 
 
 Cross " 629 
 
 " Harry Fillmore, Direct " 634 
 
 Cross " 636 
 
 Petitioner's Exhibits. 
 
 Exhibit No. 1, Map — Lake Shore Railway, Buffalo to Chicago. 
 
 " 3, Map attached to Petition 
 
 " 3, Map of Yard and Transfer House 
 
 4, Map of City of Buffalo 
 
 5, Profile Buffalo Creek Bridge 
 
 " 6, Profile of Brie Crossing 
 
 " 8, Profile as Amended 
 
 16, Profile of Erie Trestle 
 
 5 V15 
 
 10, 717 
 
 11. 722 
 
 12 723 
 
 13 734 
 
 30 735 
 
 Respondent's Exhibits. 
 
 BxhibitNo. 7 737 
 
 20, Graphic Sketch 
 
 " 21, Graphic Sketch 
 
 33, Graphic Sketch 
 
 36, Schedule of Elevations 731 
 
 27, Deed to Buffalo and Erie Railway Co 785