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CORNELL UNIVERSITY 
 
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 INDUSTRIAL AND LABOR 
 
 RELATIONS 
 
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 http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924002409526 
 
NEW SOUTH WALES. 
 
 SECOND INTERIM REPORT 
 
 OF THE 
 
 EW SOUTH WALES. BOARD OF TRADE 
 
 ON THE 
 
 PREVALENCE OF MINERS' PHTHISIS AND PNEUMOCONIOSIS 
 IN CERTAIN INDUSTRIES. 
 
 REPORT upon the Constitution and Cost of a 
 Technical Commission of Inquiry into 
 Miners' Phthisis and other Diseases 
 affecting Miners. 
 
 SYDNEY: 
 W. A. GULLICK, GOVERNMENT PRINTER 
 
 1919. 
 •5338-2 (i;— a 
 
SECOND INTEEIM EEPOET. 
 
 To His Excellency Sir Walter Edwaed Davidson, Knight Commander of 
 the Most "Distinguished Order of St. Michael and St. George, 
 Governor of the State of New South Wales and its Dependencies in 
 the Commonwealth of Australia. 
 
 •»AT IT Plkase Your Excellency, — 
 
 The New South Wales Board of Trade has the honour to present herewith 
 ■^a Second Interim Report containing complete proposals (including an 
 estimate of cost) for the formation of a technical commission of inquiry 
 referred to in the second, of the Board's recommendations contained in its 
 Report of the 9th December, 1918. The Report in question had reference 
 to the following questions referred to it by the Minister for Labour and 
 Industry by letters dated the 28th June, 1918, and the 23rd August, 1918, 
 namely : — 
 
 1. To what extent does miners' phthisis exist amongst employees in 
 
 metalliferous mines, in the rock-choppiing and sewer mining 
 industry, and in ore treatment, refining and reduction works ? 
 
 2. Should this desease be included in the schedule of the Workmen's 
 
 Compensation Act, 1916, and, if so, upon what terms? 
 
 3. To what extent does the disease — that is, pneumoconiosis — exibt 
 
 amongst quarrymen, stone-masons and other employees working 
 in stone ? 
 
 4. What relief, additional or alternative to the inclusion in the 
 
 schedule of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1916, should be 
 provided in respect of the incidence of the disease upon any of 
 the individual classes mentioned in this series of questions ? 
 
 It is desired to point out that the proposals contained in the present 
 Report are framed with a view to the technical commission undertaking 
 an examination of miners and others for plumbism and ankylostomiasis as. 
 well as pneumoconiosis. 
 
Prevalence of Miners' Phthisis and Pneumoconiosis 
 in Certain Industries. 
 
 PNEUMOCONIOSIS. 
 
 In the Interim Report of the Board of Trade on the Prevalence of 
 Miners' Phthisis and Pneumoconiosis in Certain Industries, which was 
 presented to the Governor on the 9th December, 1918, in accordance 
 with the terms of a Ministerial Reference made under section 82 of 
 the Industrial Arbitration Act, 1912-1918, it was pointed out that; 
 with respect to the prevalence of pneumoconiosis amongst miners, an 
 inquiry conducted by independent medical and scientific specialists^ 
 was alone likely to provide the data upon which a sound judgment 
 could be based. This report contained specific recommendations in 
 the following terms: — 
 
 2. That a technical commission of inquiry, with the necessary staff of 
 
 assistants, should be appointed forthwith for the purposes — 
 
 (a) of examining and reporting upon the dust conditions of 
 the sewer-mining and other engineering operations ordi- 
 narily carried out in Hawkesbury sandstone by the State' 
 Department of Public Works, the Sydney Harbour Trust, 
 and the Metropolitan Board of Water Supply and Sewer- 
 age; the dust conditions of the metalliferous mines of the 
 three principal mining centres of the State, viz.. Broken 
 Hill, Cobar, and Ardlethan ; and the dust conditions of ' 
 work done at the ore treatment, refining, and reduction- 
 works associated with such mines, and at similar works 
 in other centres; 
 (6) of determining, by clinical and radioscopic means, the 
 morbidity conditions of the respiratory organs of not less 
 than a 30 per cent, proportion of the employees in such 
 mines, and of the employees in ore treatment, refining, 
 and reduction works generally. 
 
 3. That, subject to the views of the members of such a technical com- 
 
 mission, the investigation of the dust conditions of working-places 
 should include the surveying and sampling, in a systematic and 
 exhaustive manner, of the air inspired in such places, in accordance 
 with the plan adopted by Dr. A. J. Lanza and Mr. Edwin Higgins, 
 the official American investigators of the question of the relation 
 of siliceous dust to pulmonary diseases, and described in Technical 
 Paper 105, Bureau of Mines (U.S.A.), 1915, extracts from which 
 are given in Appendix II hereto. 
 
 53382— A 
 
4. That, subject to the views of the members of such a technical com- 
 mission, the clinical investigations to be made should be directed 
 to show, in addition to existing morbidity conditions, the ante- 
 cedent pulmonary history of each person examined, the period of 
 his exposure to the dust risks of the industries mentioned, the 
 intermittency of such exposure, and the variety of the dust risks 
 to which he has been exposed. 
 
 The Board, having on the 23rd July last received an intimation 
 from the Premier to the effect that Cabinet consideration of the 
 recommendations quoted "would be generally facilitated if the Board 
 VFOuld frame complete proposals for, and estimate the cost of giving 
 effect to, the recommendations quoted, the Acting President, vrho 
 then happened to be in Broken Hill on the work of the Court of Indus- 
 trial Arbitration on the 11th August, 1919, at the Court House, 
 Broken Hill, conferred with representative employers and employees 
 upon the question of the prevalence of various industrial diseases 
 amongst the miners at Broken Hill, and the effects of those diseases 
 upon the industrial life of the centre. During the course of this 
 conference reference was also made by the Acting President to the 
 prevalence of lead-poisoning amongst the local miners and the 
 possible infection of the mines with ankylostomiasis. At the close 
 of the conference the Acting President promised that the Board of 
 Trade would be called together without delay after his return to 
 Sydney, for the purpose of considering what recommendations should 
 be made to the Government in connection with the serious need for an 
 investigation into the existence at Broken Hill of the industrial 
 diseases referred to, which was apparent. A report of the proceedings 
 of this conference appears as Appendix I to this Report. 
 
 A public meeting of the Board was held at University Chambers, 
 78 Elizabeth-street, Sydney, on the 29th August last, when the views 
 >of representatives of the mine-owners and the mine employees at 
 Broken Hill, of the Federated Mine Employees' Association of New 
 Soiith Wales, of the United Labourers' Union, and of the Water and 
 Sewerage Board were put before the Board in the form of oral state- 
 ments, and the views of the University of Sydney upon methods of 
 investigating the atmosphere of certain mines, and of Dr. Herschel 
 Harris upon the radiological treatment of persons suspected of being 
 affected with miners' phthisis, were given in the form of written 
 statements. 
 
A report af the proceedings (containing the written statements 
 referred to) is appended hereto as Appendix II. 
 
 PLUMBISM. 
 
 There appears to be no question as between employers and employees 
 in the various industries affected, as to the expediency of giving effect 
 to the recommendations of the Board of Trade's Interim Report 
 quoted above, or of applying those recommendations in the investiga- 
 tion of the incidence of plumbism upon the employees in the mines at 
 Broken Hill. 
 
 ANKYLOSTOMIASIS. 
 
 The question of the infection of the mines with ankylostomiasis is 
 more open in character, but it is probably of not less importance than, 
 the questions with reference to the other diseases. 
 
 Ankylostomiasis is a disease caused by the intrusion into the small, 
 intestines of nematode worms; and its symptoms are anaemia, diges-- 
 tive disturbances, loss of strength, and shortness of breath. In severe 
 eases it may cause prostration and death, but ordinarily the worms 
 can be extruded from the body by the use of medicines. The con- 
 ditions necessary for the spread of the disease are now well under- 
 stood/ The adult worms present in the intestine produce an enormous 
 number of eggs. These cannot develop inside th* body, and are dis- 
 charged in the feeces. In the presence of moisture and a sufSciently 
 high temperature the eggs develop into minute larval worms which 
 live in, the contaminated wet soil, mud, or water. These larvse- are 
 capable of easily penetrating the skin and reaching the veins, in which 
 they are carried to the lungs. They then appear to crawl or be carried'_ 
 up the air passages, and thence to pass down into the stomach by the 
 oesophagus. On passing into the intestines they attach themselves and 
 develop to the adult stages. Some of the larvae may enter the body 
 by the mouth, but it seems probable that infection by the skin is far 
 more common. In penetrating^ the skin they cause considerable irrita- 
 tion, and the consequent scratching may easily lead to secondary 
 infection, and formatiou of boils, &c. The worms enter one by one, , 
 and cannot multiply inside the body or be directly communicated to 
 •any other person. As; moreover, the presence of a large number ofV 
 1 he worms is- required in order to produce any symptoms, it is nearly 
 always the case that where one person is definitely ill from the disease 
 
m.R-aj others are infected in the sense that a few of the worms are 
 present in their intestines, though these infected persons have no 
 symptoms, and remain perfectly well. The infected persons may 
 indirectly propagate the disease if they contaminate the ground with 
 their fsEces and the requisite conditions of warmth and moisture are 
 present.' 
 
 The disease is also known as hookworm disease, and as miners' 
 ansemia. 
 
 An investigation of the literature on the subject of hookworm 
 disease in mines was made by the International Health Board during 
 1917. In Italy it was found that the disease had probably prevailed 
 for centuries, and in 1913 an infection rate of 57 per cent, was found 
 among 23,068 workers in the sulphur mines of Sicily. In Prance 
 investigations which covered 82 per cent, of the 144,133 underground 
 miners of the country, showed an average percentage of infection of 
 4 6. Legislation has been resorted to there to compel mine-owners 
 to meet hospital expenses for treatment. In Belgium the intensity 
 cf infection ranged from 5 per cent, to 92 per cent. Out of a total 
 of 27,153 underground miners in the Liege district, 8,590 were 
 examined, and 818, or 2279 per cent., were found infected. Of the 
 seventy-two pits in the district forty-nine were infected.^ But by a 
 persistent campaign of sanitation and treatment of those affected, the 
 disease was practically stamped out by the year 1914, the percentage 
 cf mines affected having fallen to 1-2.' In the Netherlands a survey 
 ■of six mines made in 1904 showed an average percentage of infection 
 of 25 05 among 14,089 'miners. The degree of infection ranged from 
 15 per cent, to 67 per cent.'' In Germany 32,576, or 16-8 per cent., 
 -R-ere found infected out of a total working force of 194,127. Of the 
 234 mines subjected to examination 113 showed evidence of the 
 presence of the disease." In Hungary, of 61,094 underground miners 
 employed 8,400 were examined, and the percentage of infection was 
 found to be from 85 to 100." Whereas, from 80 to 92 per cent, of the 
 miners at Selmeazbaya and Kormobanya in Hungary were infected 
 in 1882, by 1910 the infection had completely disappeared through the 
 adoption of a simple measure — the placing of pails in the mine, with 
 
 ' Second Report of the Eojal Commission on Mines (England), 1909. (Cd 48''0) 
 p. 181. 
 
 - Fourth Annual Report cf the International Health Board, Bockefeller Foundation 
 pp. 89-92. ' 
 
 » "Colliery Guardian," 9|4iU, Vol. CXII, p. 793. 
 
^he absolute prohibition,. rigorously enforced, against the deposit of 
 excrement elsewhere.' In Austria the conditions are unfavourable 
 to the spread of the disease. Up to September, 1906, only forty-four 
 cases had been discoYcred based on the examination of 7,517 miners' 
 working in 519 mines. In Spain the disease is probably more acute 
 than in any other European country. The infection ranges from 
 30 per cent, to 95 per cent., and is heaviest in the lead-mines of 
 Linares. In California a survey of the mines in 1916 revealed wide- 
 spread hookworm infection, and led to the first systematic campaign 
 for the control of the disease in mines in the United States. A number 
 of cases of infected miners have been found in the mines of Nevada, 
 North Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee, and West Virginia." Probably 
 the disease is present in other States, and it may be more general 
 than is recognised. The constant spread of irrigation and the employ- 
 ment of Oriental labour are factors favourable to its development, as 
 are also the uniform conditions of temperature and humidity in 
 certain types of mines." In China the Pingh Siang colliery in the 
 Kiangsi Province employs 11,916 miners, 62 per cent, of whom are 
 underground workers, showing at rate of infection of 85 per cent." 
 
 In England the problem is limited to tin-mines, of which there are 
 about fifty. In the course of a limited investigation in 1903, 127 men 
 were examined and showed an infection at the rate of 66 per cent." 
 
 The extent of hookworm infection does not vary with the tempera- 
 ture of the mines. Temperatures between 68 degrees and 90 degrees 
 Fahrenheit, with a certain degree of moisture, are favourable circum- 
 stances for the development of hookworm eggs into larvae." 
 
 How real is the risk of introduction of ankylostomiasis into the 
 mines of Australia, if, indeed, it is not already present there, and 
 how serious may be the consequences of the disease which they cause, 
 may be gauged from the reports of research work done in the various 
 continents of the globe, including Papua and Australia, by the Inter- 
 national Health Board, Eockefeller Foundation. 
 
 ' Dr. Eraefick Toth, at the International Congress on Industrial Diseases, 3910 ; from 
 a. resume bv M. Joseph Eibert in the "Annals des Mines de Belgique" quoted by the 
 "Colliery Guardian" 12(5|11, Vol. CI, p. 941. 
 
 ' Fourth Annual Report, International Health Board, Rockefeller Foundation, 
 pp. 89-92. 
 
 ' " Hookworm, a Communicable and Compensable Disease" by Professor C. A. Koford 
 and W. W. Cort in Monthly Bulletin, March, 1PI8, of the Californian State Board of 
 Health. 
 
 * " Control of Hookworm Infection in the Deep Gold Mines of the Mother Lode, 
 California, ' by Dr. James G. Gumming, and Joseph H. White, Bulletin No. 139 of the 
 Department of the Interior, U.S.A. 
 
Between 1st June, 1917, and the 1st Sep.tember, 1&17, Dr,^* H* 
 Waite, Director for the. Intemational Health Board, made, at. the= 
 request of the Government of the Australian Commonwealth,, a hook- 
 worm survey of Papua, and in his report,, datejithe 15th February, 
 1918,. he stated the results of, his work. TJie survey showed a marked 
 hookworm infection amongst plantation labourers (609 per cent), a 
 low infection in the case of village natives, and. negative. results for 
 the white population.. The opinion of Dr. Waite was that while it. 
 was not possible to deny that thera might be some locality in Papua 
 where hookworm flourished,, it was more than likely that the parasites 
 had been recently introduced into the. Territory by infected; white 
 plantation employees from Queensland and the. East. The recom- 
 mendations of the report included suggestions: that the. natives, should 
 be educated with regard to the. danger of soil. pollution and the neces- 
 sity for the safe disposal of. human excrement, and. that accessible 
 effective latrines should be provided as soon as possible on plantations 
 and in villages.' 
 
 Dr. Waite then proceeded, to Queensland, and on the 4th January,. 
 1919, published, in collaboration with Miss I. L. Neilson, A.T.N.A., 
 in the Medical Journal of Ausimlia^ the; results, of, a study of the 
 effects of hookworm infection upon the mental development of North 
 Queensland school children.. The work was undertaken at the ex- 
 pense of the Queensland Department of Public Instrnction. The 
 study showed that the mental development of the school children o£ 
 a considerable area of the State was being seriously impaired 
 through the prolonged antemia and toxemia resulting from hook- 
 worm infection; that the longer the infection persisted the greater 
 was the mental retardation from it; that the most backward hookr 
 worm children invariably gave the history of an early infection ; and 
 that an outstanding feature of all the mental test results was the 
 uniform slowing down of mental processes in hookworm chil&'en. 
 This blighting disease, . said the authors, is preying upon 40; per cent, 
 of the total school population from Cooktown ta Townsville. It is 
 stamping serious mental, physical,, and sexual degeneracy upon 25, per 
 cent, of the total school population. The tendency of the disease is 
 towards the obliteration of the race through the unsexing of its vic- 
 tims, and the reduction of individual resistance to acute infections 
 
 ' " Hook.vi'orm Infootinn Survey of Papua," liv J. W. Waite, M.D. : TJeport No. 
 7,326 of the Eociiefeller Fonndation, International Health Board. 
 
I 
 
 such as pneumonia and tuberculosis. To the economic loss from 
 social inefficiency must be added the wasted educational efforts of 
 4,000 teachers, with an expensive plant, trying to carry along 40 per 
 cent of relative mental deficients and mental laggards among their 
 classes. Fortunately the disease, with all of its effects, can be pre- 
 vented through applied sanitation. The solution of the entire prob- 
 lem demands an enlargement of health activities commensurate with 
 the problem of providing a sufficient corps of trained sanitarians to 
 penetrate every settlement, and to teach the people the vital necessity 
 of applied sanitation.' 
 
 The disease has already obtained a firm footing in the Common- 
 wealth of Australia, and it is relatively unimportant that it has not 
 so far been detected in the mines of any of the States. That it will 
 eventually reach these mines is inevitable, and once there it will find, 
 in the prevailing want of sanitation above and below ground at the 
 mines, and in the mining settlements, conditions particularly favour- 
 able for the development of centres of extraordinarily heavy infection, 
 and foci from which th€ disease may be disseminated throughout the 
 States. 
 
 It would be regrettable in the extreme if the opportunity offered 
 for investigating the incidence of this disease at Broken Hill while 
 the prevalence of the other diseases is being inquired into were not 
 availed of. Indeed, the unaccountable epidemics of pneumonia which 
 periodically occur in that mining centre might be no longer a mystery 
 to medical practitioners if the question of the occurrence of the 
 disease at Broken Hill were definitely answered in the affirmative. 
 
 In the opinion of the Board of Trade the question of the prevalence 
 of lead-poisoning and of ankylostomiasis amongst the workers of 
 Broken Hill and the causes and physical conditions accounting for 
 such prevalence should be investigated at the time when the inquiry 
 with reference to the prevalence of miners' phthisis is being made. 
 If, however, these two additional diseases are to be brought within 
 the sphere of influence of the Board of Trade, it is essential that 
 references with regard to them sh'ould be made to the Board by the 
 Minister in terms of section 82 {n) of the Industrial Arbitration 
 Act, 1912-18. It is believed by the Board that an inquiry with 
 
 ^ " A Stiicly of the ECPecta of Hookworm Infection upon the Mental development of 
 North Queensland School Children," by J. H. Waite, M.D., and I.L.Neilson, A.T.N.A., 
 in the Medical Journal, of A'UBtralia, 4/1(19, p. 4. 
 
8 
 
 reference to miners' phthisis alone at Broken Hill will not give sub- 
 stantial satisfaction to either employers or employees, and the recom- 
 mendation is therefore made that the Technical Commission should be 
 one of such scientific importance as to speak authoritatively upon the 
 occurrence and effects of all three diseases in the mines at Broken 
 Hill. 
 
 PERSONNEL AND COST OF THE TECHNICAL 
 COMMISSION OF INQUIRY. 
 
 The Technical Commission of Inquiry such as is contemplated by 
 the Board should include at least four persons of eminence in the 
 scientific world. One of these gentlemen should be the President or 
 Chairman of the Commission, and to him should be entrusted the 
 task of elaborating the theory of the Commission's work, and sys- 
 tematising its plans — that is, he should be actually in control of the 
 work of the Commission as a whole, and responsible for the per- 
 formance of that work and the presentation of its results. Inasmuch 
 as a difference has arisen between employers and employees as to the 
 manner in which medical scientists should be selected for the pur- 
 poses of the inquiry, the Board, believing that the President or Chair- 
 man of the Commission should be a gentleman of medical qualifica.- 
 tions, recommends that he should be sought in University circles. 
 The Board accordingly recommends that Dr. H. G. Chapman, the 
 Professor of Pharmacology in the University of Sydney, be invited 
 to accept the position referred to. Dr. Chapman is a scientist of 
 distinction, and will no doubt favourably consider the invitation of 
 the Government to lead the Commission, and will perhaps be per- 
 mitted by the University, upon that request, to devote himself to the 
 work of the Commission. It is not proposed at this point to suggest 
 the terms upon which the services of Dr. Chapman in the capacity 
 indicated could be obtained, inasmuch as it is considered that pro- 
 posals in that connection, with Dr. Chapman's consent, should be 
 made in a formal manner to the University Senate. 
 
 The other members of the C«pimission should, in the Board's 
 opinion, be three in number. The Commission should include a 
 radiologist, and the Board recommends the appointment to the Com- 
 mission in that capacity of Dr. W. A. Edwards, of 185 Macquarie- 
 ' street, Sydney. Dr. Edwards is a prominent roentgenologist, and 
 Lis services could probably be obtained under arrangements for a 
 
9 
 
 retainer at the rate of £1,000 per annum, and a condition that his fee 
 shall not be less than £500. The Commission should certainly include 
 as zoologist Dr. W. Sawyer, the Senior State Director of the Inter- 
 national Health Board (Rockefeller Foundation), who has lately 
 arrived in Australia to undertake the direction of the hookworm 
 campaign in Australia, with which the Commonwealth Government 
 and the State of Queensland are associated. Dr. Sawyer will, it is 
 understood, be able to make his services available for the purposes of 
 the inquiry upon terms which will give to this State the benefit of the 
 advantageous arrangements which have already been made with the 
 International Health Board by the State of Queensland. The Com- 
 mission should also include, as clinician and consultant. Dr. S. A. 
 .Smith, of 149 Macquarie-street, Sydney, a practitioner of eminence, 
 who is a brother of Dr. Grafton Elliot Smith, a scientist of world- 
 wide fame. Dr Smith's services can be retained at a fee of 10 
 guineas per day^ subject to the condition that he is not to be required 
 to remain absent from his metropolitan practice for a longer period 
 than one month. The Commission should also include a physicist, 
 and in this connection the Board accepts the recommendation volun- 
 teered by the University that the position should be offered to Dr. 
 Halcro Wardlaw, D.Sc, a bio-chemist of experience and repute who 
 would require to be paid at the rate of £50 per month. 
 
 The Commission will require the services of an important staff, 
 which should include a physician paid by salary at the rate of £700 
 per annum; a bacteriologist, paid by salary at the rate of £600 per 
 annum; two chemists, paid by salary at the rate of £600 and £350 
 per annum respectively; three chemical assistants, paid by salary at 
 the rate of £250, £225, and £225 per annum respectively; two micro- 
 scopicists, paid by salary at the rate of £350 and £250 per annum 
 respectively; two laboratory attendants, paid by salary at the rate 
 of £250 and £225 per annum respectively ; two X-ray photographers, 
 paid by salary at the rate of £275 and £250 per annum respectively; 
 and a registrar and two clerks, paid by salary at the rate of £350, 
 £250, and £200 per annum respectively. It will be necessary, in the 
 opinion of the Board, to arrange that all members of the Commission 
 and of the staff of the Commission shall receive travelling and living 
 expenses while they are engaged upon the work of the Commission 
 away from their home centres. These allowances should be granted 
 
10 
 
 on the scales which are appropriate to the cases of persons of the 
 standing of the Commissioners, and are authorised by well-established 
 precedent in the State, and in the case of the staff of the Commission 
 should be fixed in accordance with the rates payable to persons ol 
 the same salary status in the Public Service. 
 
 The equipment of the Commission must include an X-ray apparatus 
 at a cost of approximately £500, and subsidiary appliances, including 
 7,000 plates at a further cost of £1,500. The bacteriological and 
 chemical work on the Commission will require laboratory equipment 
 at a cost of approximately £500. It is assumed, in this quotation, 
 that some facilities for laboratory work will be provided by the State 
 Technical College at Broken Hill. 
 
 The cost of administrative work to be done in aid of the Technical 
 Commission will not be great, but some provision in connection with 
 it must, of course, be made. The Commission will require the services, 
 as before stated, of a registrar and two clerks, and equipment in the 
 nature of extensive card-systems and filing-cabinets to contain them. 
 It is not possible to anticipate usefully the method that will be 
 adopted by the Technical Commission, but it is probable that some 
 number, not less than 3,500, of the employees of the mines will be sub- 
 jected to clinical, radioscopic, and bacteriological examination and 
 treatment at Broken Hill alone. It is anticipated that the phthisis 
 section of the Commission will be engaged in work at that centre for 
 approximately six months; that the lead-poisoning section, for the 
 work of which Dr. Chapman will be personally responsible, will be 
 engaged there for an equivalent period of time, but that the hook- 
 worm section will finish its work in a much shorter period. 
 
 Some provision will need to be made to meet the expense of accom- 
 modating the Commission as a working unit. It is not possible at 
 this moment to indicate the number of rooms that will be required 
 by the Commission, or to say what rent will be demanded for the 
 necessary accommodation at Broken Hill. Some provision is there- 
 fore made in this respect in a general estimate of contingent expenses, 
 which is now stated at £685. 
 
 The total expenses of the work of the Commission for a period of 
 six months can, in view of the facts previously stated, be estimated 
 only in round figures, and to a very general effect. The Board be- 
 lieves that those expenses will not ex:eeed £13,500 so far as the 
 
11 
 
 investigation necessary to be carried out at Broken Hill is concerned, 
 and should not exceed £15,000 if some further investigation is made 
 . in the cases of the rockchoppers in the metropolitan area, and the 
 employees of one or two mining centres in the eastern section of the 
 State. 
 
 It will be necessary to have a reserve to meet the expenses involved 
 by way of honoraria to Professor Chapman and Dr. Sawyer, and this 
 will be provided by the sum of £2,000, representing the difference 
 between the sum of the foregoing items and the total amount involved, 
 namely, £15,000. 
 
 The Board is strongly of the opinion that if the work of investiga- 
 tion is to be carried out upon scientific lines, and to produce results 
 of a reliable character, the costs now indicated must be incurred. 
 
 W. EDMUNDS, Acting President. 
 J. B. HOLME, Deputy President. 
 
 W; T. WILLINGTON, 
 
 THOMAS ROUTLBY, 
 
 B. J. KAVANAGH, J Commissioners. 
 
 ARTHUR COOPER, 
 
T") 
 
 APPENDIX I. 
 
 Report of Proceedings at Broken Hill re Mintrs 
 Occupational Diseases. 
 
 MONDAY, 11 AUGUST, 1919. 
 
 Present :' — The Acting President (HIS HOITOE Mh. JUSTICE 
 EDMUNDS), Mr. EMEEY (President, Broken Hill Mining Managers' 
 Association), Mr. HOEWOOD (General Manager, Broken Hill Pro- 
 r-rietary), Mr. WAINWEIGHT (General Manager, Broken Hill South, 
 Ltd.), Mr. G. KEEE (President A.M.A., Broken Hill), ^ Mr. J. 
 MIDDLING (Vice-President, A.M.A.), Mr. W. BAENETt' (Secre- 
 tary, A.M. A.). 
 
 PEESIDENT : This is not a Bitting of the court, of course; it is an 
 informal procedure which I thought it advisable to adopt with reference 
 to work which is proceeding before the Board of Trade in relation to an. 
 inquiry into diseases connected with the mining industry in this district. 
 The Board of Trade has done some work in that respect already. I have 
 been the President of that body for the past six or seven months, and the 
 question of continuing the inquiry into mining diseases has been on several 
 occasions considered by it, and it was thought opportune, as I was liere in 
 Broken Hill on other business, I should place the situation in respect of 
 those inquiries before the persons interested, and become a carrier of infor- 
 mation to the Board of Trade as regards the views which persons here 
 interested in the matter may take as to the method in which that inquiry 
 should now proceed. So far, the only disease which has been exhaustively 
 dealt with is that caused by the inhalation of siliceous dust into the lungs, 
 viz., pneumoconiosis. The Board of Trade has reported upon that disease 
 in a document which will be found valuable by any person who reads it 
 attentively. It contains pretty exhaustively what I may call the book- 
 learning on the subject. That having been obtained, the practical work 
 remains* to be done; that is, to ascertain, by practical observation, and 
 according to scientific methods, whether or not that disease exists in the 
 mines of Broken Hill amongst the workers in those mines, and to what 
 extent, and then to proceed from that stage to consider the question as to 
 wliether measures have already been taken, or should be taken, to combat 
 these mining diseases, and to what extent they may, by scientific method, 
 possilily be prevented. Now, you can see that that will be an inquiry 
 
13 
 
 requiring a cpnsiderable amount of professional skill.''' Iso body of laj-men 
 like the' Board of Trade, and no body of inquirers amongst yourselves, 
 however interested and earnest you may be, can proceed any further on 
 ■work of that kind any more than an inexperienced person could proceed 
 at once into your mines and begin to manage them and carry out the 
 multifarious processses connected with them.** That is the stage which the 
 inquiry has reached as regards the particular disease of pneumoconiosis; 
 it has come to the point at which it is impossible, it seems to the Board 
 of Trade, to proceed without scientific investigation. It seems absolutely 
 necessary that this expert investigation of a scientific nature should be 
 made, first of all, as to the extent to which disease incidental to the industry 
 is prevalent here, as well as consideration of the extent to which efforts 
 £ire made to prevent or to combat those- effects, and to determine' how far 
 those measures may be supplemented. The inquiry will be similar to that 
 which has been made, and, it is said, with very good effect, upon the Rand, 
 in South Africa, "where, at very considerable cost to the South African 
 Government, a most exhaustive investigation was made with regard to the 
 health conditions of the workers there. It is, therefore, a question for 
 consideration by the Board of Trade whether the work which has been done 
 in South Africa, which has already been evolved to a very large extent, 
 which you will see if you read the Board's Report upon it, may be further 
 used for the benefit of the mining community generally here at Broken 
 Hill. But it is not a question in which the working classes alone are 
 concerned — I assume now, for the purpose of this remark, that there are 
 certain severe diseases incidental to the work of the miner here. That 
 obviously is a matter which, although the worker himself is most vitally 
 concerned, because it concerns his life as well as his state of health, the 
 employer must, I imagine, know he cannot look upon with indifference 
 either, because, if it develops to a much greater degree, it may be that it 
 would make work of the kind which is necessary for him almost an impossi- 
 bility. Therefore, it is a matter of mutual interest. My remarks apply 
 not only to the one disease I have named, but also to lead-poisoning, and 
 there may be others of which I am ignorant, in respect of which it is the 
 duty of the Board of Trade to use its best efforts to ascertain all the facts, 
 and, if possible, to arrive at some concluision with respect to the prevention 
 and cure, and to the moans by which those methods ought to Se achieved 
 in the mines here, both in the interests of the management and the interests 
 of the men themselves. 
 
 The Board of Trade is under the impression that there are in Broken 
 Hill persons — it may be the unions; it may be individual citizens; it may 
 be the management — ^but there are here persons who have to this extent 
 interested themselves in this important matter. They may have prepared 
 information, probably at considerable cost, to lay before the Board of 
 Trade for its guidance. That is the first point upon which I desire to con- 
 fer with all you gentlemen and be informed by you as to what preparatory 
 work you have already done, if any, in that respect. I can report that. 
 It may not be necessary for you, and it may not be possible in the time 
 that we can give now, for you to furnish me with the full details in that 
 ieonnection; but then your very presence here shows me that, if you have 
 
14 
 
 done that work, you would not have any objection to puijting down in 
 writing a statement, so that there shall be no omission or misunderstanding 
 on my part when I return to Sydney and tell the Board of Trade the pre- 
 sent state of affairs. I cannot conceive that there can be anything which 
 would be more engrossing to the skilled and humane minds of the district 
 If you will tell me briefly now, or undertake to send me in -writing an 
 account of what you have already done in the way of preparation for such 
 an inquiry, I shall be very thankful. Then I want you to consider — 
 possibly you have done so already — what, in your opinion, would be the 
 Tsest way now for the Board of Trade to proceed. It does not intend, of 
 course, to let the matter rest respecting the other diseases in connection 
 with the industry until it has concluded its work with regard to the one 
 it has in hand — -that is to say, pneumoconiosis — ^because it is yet indefinite 
 how long the work relating to that particular disease may take. The Board 
 of Trade has been in communication with the Government on this matter, 
 and has placed before the Government its views as regards the necessity 
 for inquiring in the way I have suggested, by skilled competent authority. 
 That is really going on now. It seems to me — and I shall put that aspect 
 of the case before the Board of Trade on my return — that the matter should 
 not be held up until that one particular phase is completed. It is im- 
 possible to forecast at the present time how long the completion of that 
 work will take. It is only the scientific inquirers who can form any idea 
 of that. Nevertheless, the inquiry may proceed at the same time in respect 
 of other diseases — take lead-poisoning for instance. Certain representatives 
 of interests at Broken Hill have sent to the Board of Trade urging upon 
 them the necessity of an inquiry into that particular matter. The Board 
 -then, in respect of that particular disease also, was met with the difficulty 
 -with regard to the mode of inquiry — whether, in the first instance, the 
 preparation should be made for expert examination, or whether it would 
 be advisable for the Board to come here and get from the persons con- 
 cerned the information they required, in some statistical form, as to the 
 extent to which that disease is prevalent. On that point also it is probable 
 there are some amongst you who have done some work already. I wish to 
 ■ask now what work of' that kind, if any, has been so done. Then I wish 
 to receive from any gentleman present who has studied the matter, and 
 whose opinion on it would be of value, suggestions as to the mode in which 
 the inquiry by the Board of Trade should proceed. What we are anxious 
 to avoid is this : we do not want to come here ourselves — ^not being qualified 
 in that particular line, and to hold merely a sort of offhand general inquiry 
 and examine persons who are not specially trained; we do not want to have 
 evidence from people who will merely give us certain facts relating to their 
 own experiences in regard to these diseases, and thereby collect information 
 of a kind which would be of little use to us. However well meant it may 
 be, such evidence, not being directed to the particular points with which 
 we are most vitally concerned, could not help us to any extent. Those 
 who have considered the matter may be able to suggest what would be 
 the best method of procedure in dealing with the matters I have outlined. 
 I do not propose for one moment to take any evidence myself. I am only 
 a carrier of information between you and the Board of Trade, and I do 
 
16 
 
 hope — and I give you my assurance I shall make an effort to that extent — 
 that the work which this Board may do — which is quite irrespective of any 
 party or class in the community, and is intended solely for the benefit 
 of the whole — will have beneficial results, on the one hand, most particularly 
 directed to the well-being of the people of this State who work here> and, 
 secondly, in the way of preseirving' an industry of such vast importance to 
 the community. I hope our efforts will result in the preservation of the 
 industry under conditions that will not be too exacting upon human health 
 and life. I shall, I assure you, do my utmost to make it so, as far as I 
 possibly can. There is no denying the fact that these are difficult questions ; 
 they cannot be rushed; but, so far as it is possible to make the work pro- 
 ceed expeditiously and efficiently, every effort will be made so far as I am 
 concerned. Of course, I cannot make the work proceed efficiently without 
 the advice of those who know a great deal more about the points at issue 
 than I do. Therefore, I ask you gentlemen at the table, and those amongst 
 the audience who desire to take a part in this conference, to assist the 
 Board' of Trade in the way I have indicated. I shall be very glad, in the 
 first place,, to take your names, and then hear what you have to say upon 
 the subject. In the first place, is there anyone here who is particularly 
 interested in this matter from the viewpoint of the workers? 
 
 Mr. G. Kerr, v 
 
 Mr. J. Middling, [ of the A.M.A., 
 Mr. W. Barnett, j 
 
 intimated that they appeared on behalf of the workers; 
 
 Mr. C. Emery. 
 Mr. J. Horwood, 
 Mr. W. Wainwright, 
 Mr. Hebbard, 
 Mt. Smith, 
 Mr. Greenlees, 
 appearing on behalf of the, mining companies. 
 
 PRESIDENT: What have you to say, Mr. Kerr? 
 
 Mr. KERE: Some twelve months ago the A.M.A. made representations 
 ta the Boaxd of Trade to have an inquiry conducted here on the lines you 
 have meirtioned; We had gone to a lot of trouble and expense in this con- 
 nection. We sent witnesses to Sydney, and the Board of Trade did not 
 hear them, stating it was their intention to proceed to Broken Hill and take 
 evidence- here. In connection with that visit to Sydney, as I have already 
 said; we spent quite a lot of money, and we had 200 of our men examined 
 for the- purpose of furnishing the Board of Trade with information aS to- 
 the effect on the men working in the mines of these diseases. We sent 
 that information down to the Board of Trade in Sydney, in a letter. 
 Briefly,- it showed that, out of 200 men examined, less than 20 per cent. 
 were normal healthy men. All the rest were affected in one way or another 
 by the conditions under which they were working along the line of lode. 
 The Board of Trade then presented an interim report, recommending the 
 Government, I believe, to form a medical branch of the Board of Trade, for 
 
16 
 
 the purpose of conducting this inquiry, and we of the A.M.A. are absolutely 
 convinced that anything other than a scientific inquiry, conducted by scientific 
 men who are familiar with Broken Hill and the industries here, would be 
 useless. The figures I have mentioned were obtained by a local doctor, in 
 reply to an advertisement in our paper asking men to come along and 
 present themseves for medical examination. The doctor accordingly 
 examined the men, and in each case gave us the certificates. From those 
 certificates we arrived at our percentages. It has been said that we selected 
 the men who w6re sufFering from the complaint, or those whose health was 
 broken down, but that is not so. The men were examined for chest com- 
 plaints and miner's phthisis, from aU parts of the Commonwealth, who had 
 worked for any length of time in Broken Hill. The only men we did not 
 examine were those who arrived in Broken Hill a few months before the 
 examination actnaly took place. That examination has revealed an appal- 
 ling state of aiiairs. Since then we have done everything we possibly could 
 to get the Board of Trade to conduct the scientific inquiry your Honor has 
 referred to. We offered, on behalf of the A.M.A., to have a medical exam- 
 ination of each man at his place of work. In other centres men have 
 refused to go through that examination. They want to get the truth. 
 They want to get the results of medical examination, either proved or dis- 
 proved. If a scientific investigation, conducted by experts, proves that the 
 percentages we have submitted are correct, then we demand that there shall 
 be some improvement in the conditions. If, on the other hand, the result 
 of the scientific investigation disproves our figures, then there will be none 
 better pleased than the members of the A.M.A. We have done everything 
 we possibly could to have this inquiry. We have written to every member 
 of Parliament; we have sent deputations to the Minister; we have waited 
 on Mr. Holme, of the Board of Trade, and have pointed out the necessity 
 for an early and thorough inquiry into this important matter. Members 
 of the A.M.A. then took the matter into their own hands, and they are 
 now, as your Honor is aware, out on strike in an endeavour to improve 
 their conditions, in an endeavour to force the mining companies to pay 
 compensation for these industrial diseases, which are playing, and have 
 played, such havoc on the health and lives of their members. You can 
 see the force of my statements by looking at the audience before you. 
 There are quite a number of these men who are sufFering in the last stages 
 of this complaint — ^men who have been through the different homes for 
 incurables, and yet can obtain nothing at all under the Compensation Act 
 of New South Wales; there are men there, also, who are suffering from 
 lead-poisoning. Lead-poisoning is already in the schedule of the Work- 
 men's Compensation Act; but the cruelty of the condition is that they 
 receive, when the certifying surgeon declares that they are suffering from 
 that complaint, the small amount of £2 per week, the companies so far 
 having declined to make any lump-sum payment. The result is that 
 those men who know they are in the early stages of the disease, and who 
 feel the effects of the lead, will not try and obtain the compensation, because 
 it is insufficient to live on. They are, therefore, forced to continue to live 
 and work in an industry which is poisoning their system, in order to obtain 
 the wherewithal to support their wives and children. This, we consider, ia 
 
17 
 
 a gross injustice. The A.M.A. has taken up some fourteen or fifteen cases 
 of lead-poisoning. The whole of these men are here; there are some of 
 them who are hopelessly incurable — and this is a phase I want particularly 
 to stress before your Honor; there are others who, if they get away from 
 IBroken Hill, and try to live under healthier and better conditions, with a 
 prospect of being ciired, cannot obtain the £2 per week; they get no com- 
 pensation whatever if they leave the State under the present Act, but even 
 if they could obtain permission to leave the £2 per week is absolutely inade- 
 quate. The conditions to which I have referred apply to all industrial 
 diseases, only the others are not yet on the schedule of compensation. Your 
 Honor will be able to make representations to the Government that they, 
 will extend the scope of the present inquiry, to see if it is not possible to 
 formulate some scheme whereby men who are in the early Stages of lead- 
 poisoning or miners' phthisis could be taken away from the industry alto- 
 gether. That could be discovered by a periodical medical examination, 
 which would reveal whether men, at present compelled to break up their 
 bodies in the mines, would have an opportunity of recuperating their health 
 by an entire change of surroundings; men who, if compelled to remain at 
 their work, would be shattered in health; men who are forced by necesssity 
 to remain here and Buffer, lest their wives and children be left to absolute 
 starvation. It is because of those conditions, therefore, that the members 
 of the A.M.A. are out on strike at the present time, and they are determined 
 that those conditions shall be improved. 
 
 PEESIDENT: I was not aware of that, I must confess. I have not 
 gone into the matter of the cauge of this strike at all. I did not know 
 that; but now that you assure me it is so, it looks to me all the inore! 
 necessary that something should be done by the Board of Trade in this 
 matter. 
 
 Mr. KERR: We have done everything we possibly could to hurry up the 
 Board of Trade. I was going to conclude by saying, because of the certainty 
 in the heart of every man who works at the mines that the state of -afFairs 
 disclosed by the medical examinations is correct, that the A.M.A. is deter- 
 mined there shall be an improvement. If your Honor can hurry up that 
 scientific investigation, you will be conferring a great benefit on the 
 workers of this District. We have all the members who went up for medical 
 examination, and all the figures I have referred to, together with the 
 advertisements, also photos of the men, X-Ray photographs, and if you care 
 ±0 see them we will bring them round after lunch. 
 
 PRESIDENT : I shall be very glad to see them ; I will not peruse them 
 in detail, but I shall see the headings under which the information is 
 placed, and, as it were, summarise the whole thing in my mind, so that 
 I will be able to make some report upon it. That, I understand, has not 
 been sent to the Board of Trade so far. 
 
 Mr. KERR : The letter, if I remember rightly, stated that the examina- 
 tion disclosed the percentage of men who were affected by miners' phthisis. 
 
 , PRESIDENT : Before you finish, I should like to ask what would be the 
 best course for the Board of Trade to adopt. The Board may come here, 
 not as a whole, but represented by, say, two or three members selected for 
 
18 
 
 tlmt particular purpose. Have you considered what would be tlie best 
 procedure— one that would be accepted generally by the workers them- 
 selves ? 
 
 Mr. KEEE: Yes; the only procedure likely to be satisfactory to all con- 
 cerned would be, I think, a scientific medical examination of the men 
 themselves. 
 
 PEESIDENT: That is where a difficulty has arisen. I have been 
 nresent when consideration has been given by the Board of Trade to that 
 matter. We have made, as it were> a particular point of this. We realise 
 we have to create, as it were, a specialist in that line here. I do not know 
 ubout Broken Hill. I am speaking about Sydney. Mr. Holme has been in 
 conference on that point with the best medical authorities in Sydney, both 
 in the University and in the profession generally. I do not speak with- 
 absolute certainty, but I think I am right in saying he came to- the con- 
 clusion that we really must train a specialist in that particular subject, 
 and the consideration of that matter has been very largely the cause of 
 the delay — not that that training would take a very long time. Such 
 training would be really acquired by the experimental work on the spot. 
 We can get men who have all the qualifications to enter- upon what you 
 may call, a specialist's course. The completion of a man's University 
 training in that line would be right here in the practical work; so that, 
 while I say we have really to train and create a specialist in this State in 
 these matters, it does not necessarily mean a delay in procedure until that 
 fully- trained specialist is produced; his -training as a specialist — and I 
 desire to emphasise this points-will be; as I say, in the work itself. It 
 would be useless, therefore, for the Board of Trade to come here as laymen 
 and enter upon a layman's inquiry — it would be sheer waste of time. The 
 first step that occurs to me as a result of your contention that the Board of 
 Trade should take action is that we should, if possible, procure from the 
 Government the assistance of those qualified men, who- would direct their 
 studies and their work towards becoming specialists in this line. I can see 
 no other way out of it. They must comer up here and establish their 
 laboratory, and do their work here. I do not know whether one would be 
 sufficient for the purpose, or more than one; but that would be a matter 
 for determination at a later stage. 
 
 Mr. KEER: That procedure will not take a long time. 
 
 PEESIDENT : It should not take long. I do not think I am breaking 
 confidence in saying this. If I am doing so, then I will talie the responsi- 
 bility of it, because it is not really information for the public — although I 
 can see no reason why the public should not be acquainted with it, seeing 
 the matter has reached its present stage. Mr. Holme has been advised by 
 those medical authorities whom he has consulted that, so far as they could 
 judge — I suppose it is to a large extent, guess work — the work here might 
 take a year. They certainly think it would occupy a man fully for six months 
 — not merely the man himself, but some staff to ,assist him. It would be 
 necessary to provide certain apparatus, of course, with regard to the dust. 
 That, as a matter of fact, has been pretty well worked out in South 
 
19 
 
 Africa, as you will find on reference to tke JBoard's report. The Govern- 
 ment is to provide apparatus, laboratory assistants for the experts, and, 
 above all, a competent man is to be, appointed to specialise. It is , probable, 
 \nth such a vast amount of work to be done, that it would take twelve 
 months. 
 
 Mr. KERE: Is it possible for the Board of Trade to recommend the 
 Government, while this is going on, to place the men who. are suSering 
 from miners' phthisis on the schedule of the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act? Could they do that now? 
 
 PEESIDEISTT : The Board of Trade has been considering the question— 
 I think it was referred to the Minister — as to what diseases should be 
 placed upon that schedule here. I cannot say definitely what ias been 
 done in that connection. I do not feel I am competent to express an 
 opinion. If there are admitted cases of the kind, as you say, there might 
 be no difficulty ; but, if there are disputed cases, the only person who could 
 solve such disputes would be these very experts. 
 
 Mr. ZEEE: Surely, your Honor, until the experts concluded their 
 inquiry these men could be placed on the schedule? 
 
 PEESIDENT: That really comes as a further suggestion from you. 
 You first of all suggest, as I take it from your remarks, the inquiry by a 
 specialist; secondly, while such inquiry is proceeding, the consideration 
 of the relief of persons now suffering from diseases incidental to their 
 oeciTpations shall be given — not only those who have been totally incapaci- 
 tated, but those whose health is impaired. That is yoiir second point, 
 and that might proceed concurrently with the scientific inquiry. 
 
 Mr. KEEE: I am concerned chiefly about the men who are here now 
 who are unable to work, who are in hospital and in the homes for incurables, 
 and whose wives and children are obtaining nothing. I think we can prove 
 before an ordinary Court, that they should, as a matter of simple justice, 
 be placed on the schedule. 
 
 PEESIDEN'T : It seems to me that two or three of the Board's members 
 might come here and hold an inquiry as laymen into facts of that kind, and 
 ascertain, if they can, the number of cases of the nature of which you 
 speak. That might be the first step. Then, that fact ascertained, leave 
 its results to be checked by the specialist later on. 
 
 Mr. KEEE: If the inquiry will take twelve months 
 
 PEESIDENT : It is likely to— it is no use blinking the fact, from the 
 information we have from the Sydney University, and from others -who 
 have special knowledge of these matters, although their special knowledge 
 may not be very extensive, that they could not get sufficient results to 
 huild upon until probably twelve months. 
 
 Mr. KEEE: But the question of payments to these unfortunate men 
 ■would not be a matter for scientific inquiry; surely that would be a matter 
 the Board of Trade could very well deal with. The payments under the 
 present system are inadequate, and neither fair nor just. I think the Board 
 of Trade should go into that matter, and hear our recommendations in 
 regard to paying men who are already on the schedule lump sums, instead 
 of forcing them to live on a pittance of £2 per week. 
 
20 
 
 PEESIDENT: Of course, I shall probably take an opportunity oi 
 hearing the employers on that point, so that my mind may be clearer. I 
 must hear both sides. Has any other member any suggestions to offer? 
 
 Mr. BAENETT : No, your Honor, thank you. 
 
 Mr. EMEEY: On behalf of the Broken Hill Mining" Managers' Asso- 
 ciation, representing the employers, I should like to state that we are 
 anxious and willing to assist the Board of Trade in this investigation to 
 the utmost of our power, and, with this object in view, we think that the 
 recommendation of the Board of Trade, as already outlined in their interim 
 report, should be given effect to at the earliest possible moment — that is 
 that a technical commission, consisting of medical and technical experts, 
 should be appointed to carry out a thorough investigation. If possible, we 
 would like to see every man in the industry examined. We realise that that 
 would be a huge undertaking, and would take a very long while; but we 
 are desirous that the inquiry shall be made with great thoroughness. If it 
 is not possible to do that, we would like to see at least 30 per cent, of the 
 men employed underground and 30 per cent, of those employed on the 
 surface examined, as already suggested in that interim report. With 
 regaTd to the evidence that the Board of Trade could get at Broken Hill 
 at this stage, certainly they would get somef information as to the analysis 
 of the mines here, the underground temperatures, and so on, but I am 
 afraid the evidence they would be able to obtain at present would not be of 
 any value, because what is really wanted is largely scientific matter for 
 medical men. 
 
 PEESIDENT: And medical men specialists. 
 
 Mr. EMEEY : Yes. At the present time the companies are endeavouring 
 to get such a man in Australia, with a view to bringing him here to inves- 
 tigate on their behalf these matters, so that the Board of Trade could 
 have the full benefit of his research. We prefer, however, to see inde- 
 pendent men appointed by the Board of Trade and sent here as soon as 
 possible. We really think that is the best way to carry on the investigation. 
 1 really do not think the Board of Trade could do much good by coming 
 up here at the present time. We would very much like to see the scope 
 of this inquiry extended, not only to cover pneumoconiosis, but lead- 
 poisoning and all other occupational diseases. I can only say that we will 
 do anything we possibly can to assist the Board of Trade in its investigation, 
 if that recommendation of theirs is carried out. That method is undoubt- 
 edly the only satisfactory one, and will prove the most expeditious and 
 thorough one. It will, no doubt, take some time; but it will be time very 
 well spent. The companies realise that the health of the men must be 
 their first consideration, and they are prepared to face the truth of the 
 ■situation, no matter what it may be. In this connection, I might say we 
 have already, in conjunction with the A.M.A., sent a wire to the Minister, 
 ■recommending that the Technical Commission be appointed at the earliest 
 ■possible moment. So far as the men here at the present time suffering 
 from lead-poisoning and other diseases are concerned, and who, Mr. Kerr 
 says, are not allowed to leave the State, I would like to say that that is 
 hardly correct; they are allowed to leave the State, as a matter of fact, if 
 
21 
 
 they can get a certificate from a certifying surgeon to the effect that they 
 are permanently disabled. With regard to the other matter which Mr. 
 Kerr brought up, in connection with men suffering from pneumoconiosis 
 getting some compensation right away, I would like to point out that at the 
 present time that disease is not recognised as an occupational one under 
 any of the Compensation Acts in Australia. If it were made applicable 
 to New South Wales only, it would mean that this State would have to 
 bear the expense of all the cases from other States, who would surely flock 
 from other mining centres to this district, because they would be entitled 
 to compensation in New South Wales, of which they would be deprived in 
 other parts of the Commonwealth. We would have men coming here from 
 Victoria, South Australia, South Africa, and other places. We do not want 
 Broken Hill to be made a dumping-ground for men suffering from pneu- 
 moconiosis or consumption. *' 
 
 PRESIDENT : That means you suggest that the Board of Trade should 
 consider whether concerted action by all the States of the Commonwealth 
 should not be taken in this connection. 
 
 Mr. EMERY: Yes; I was going to suggest it is a Federal matter, and 
 should be taken up by the Commonwealth authorities. 
 
 PRESIDENT : But if you leave it to be dealt with by that Government, 
 you will leave it to be indefinitely postponed. It is quite difficult enough 
 to stimulate into activity the representatives of our own Government, par- 
 ticularly with regard to matters affecting Broken Hill. 
 
 Mr. EMERY: We have already written, asking that the Technical Com- 
 mission shall be sent here at the earliest possible moment, and, later on, in 
 conjunction with the A.M.A., we reiterated our request. We urged the 
 necessity of a thorough investigation into these matters, and the only way 
 to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion is by the appointment of a technical 
 commission. It is a matter which calls for prompt action. We are just as 
 anxious as the A.M.A. to have this problem solved at the earliest possible 
 moment. If that is done, I can assure you the companies will do their 
 utmost to assist the Board of Trade. Until that is done, I do not see that 
 any other step is possible. 
 
 President : Lead-polsonlng, also, is not a scheduled disease, I under- 
 stand. 
 
 Mr. EMERY: It is at. the present time. Still, we would like that to be 
 thoroughly investigated, too, because if it is a fact that lead-poisoning is 
 prevalent here, the companies are anxious to take steps to safeguard the 
 health of the men. As I said before, we are desirous of getting at the truth 
 of the whole matter. 
 
 PRESIDENT : There wa:3 some talk of hookworm in the coalmining dis- 
 tricts of the State. Has that ever affected the men here? 
 
 Mr. EMERY: No. I do not think I can give your Honor any further 
 information. I will simply reiterate that we are willing and anxious to 
 fco-operate in every way possible with the Board of Trade in this very 
 important matter. 
 
22 
 
 PRESIDENT : I take it your suggestioa is that I shall urge upon tne 
 Board of Trade the appointment -of a Medical and Technical Oonunission 
 as the most important step. 
 
 Mr. EMEEY: Yes. 
 
 PRESIDENT: In that you and Hr. ICerr are at one. 
 
 Mr. EMERY: Yes. It is, perhaps, the only thing fhat the A.M.A. ^nd 
 the mining companies agree upon. 
 
 PRESIDENT: It is a very useful starting-point-T7-probably a sort of 
 jumping-ofE ground. 
 
 Mr. EMERY : Let us hope so, your Honor. 
 
 PRESIDENT : In connection with that, do you think something practical 
 might be done in respect of the men themselves finding out who are actually 
 suffering from the disease, as they go along? 
 
 Mr. EMERY: I have no doubt Mr. Kerr knows who are suffering; the 
 A.M.A. must have a record. 
 
 PRESIDENT : Then we could expect the co-operation of the companies 
 themselves in devising appropriate methods for the relief of those par- 
 ticular cases — you might call them probable cases. 
 
 Mr. EMERY: The companies do not wish to shirk their responsibilities 
 in this matter in any way whatever; they are, as I said before, perfectly 
 prepared to face them. We have at the present time not a great number 
 of lead-poisoning cases. There are about 3,000 men working underground 
 in Broken Hill, and there are only 15 or 16 cases where compensation ia 
 being paid at the present time. 
 
 Mr. BARNETT : But the doctors have not Iieen able to examine aU of 
 them ; if they were able to do so, you would probably find more. 
 
 PRESIDENT : Could not a census be taken, not only as regards actual 
 ascertained cases, but of probable cases? 
 
 Mr. EMERY : It has been the general opinion in Broken Hill that men 
 could not get lead-poisoning in sulphide Btopes. As a xaatter of fact, it 
 is only quite recently that we have had any claim for compensation at all. 
 I think we might say, also, that since the strike has been in operation 
 there has been an epidemic of lead-poisoning. 
 
 PRESIDENT : I still think something might be done by the Board of 
 Trade in taking, as it were, a census, not only of ascertained, but of probable 
 cases, so far as a layman is able to do it. 
 
 Mr. EMERY : It would be a matter for a medical man to examine them. 
 
 PRESIDENT: Of course, we would be dependent on medical evidence 
 to a large extent; but the A.M.A. have already a number of cases in which 
 an examination by some local medical man has been made. 
 
 Mr. EMERY : I believe that is a fact. 
 
 PRESIDENT : How many cases of lead-poisoning do you say you hawe, 
 Mr. Kerr? 
 
23 
 
 Mr. KERE: I forget tHe exact figures, your Honor, but we examined 
 some 200 altogether, and I think there were fifty-eight who were suffering 
 from lead-poisoning. The percentage was remarkably high. I will give 
 you the exact figures this afternoon. The realson there were so few 
 appearing in the statements we furnished was because Dr. Bumell, the 
 certifying surgeon, was only appointed some six months ago. He was 
 examining the cases as rapidly as we could send them along to him; there 
 are quite a number on the list yet, but he has not had time to examine 
 them. Since- the influenza epidemic broke out he has had to go away for a 
 holiday, and he returned only a couple of days ago. 
 
 PRESIDENT : Do you think there would be anything in this suggestion, 
 for the purpose of arriving at the most effective procedure, that the Board 
 of Trade should arrange to have your case, as put by Dr. Burnell, or any 
 other witness you desire — I should think Dr. Burnell would be sufficient 
 myself — ^heard at. a public, meeting of the Board of Trade in Sydney. 
 
 Mr. EMERY: I should like to point out that lead-poisoning is a very 
 difficult disease to detect, so much so that we have had cases that have been 
 examined by at least two doctors, who certified the men were not suffering 
 from lead-poisoning, and they have appealed to the medical referee, who has 
 certified that they were. When two doctors out of three will certify that a 
 man is, not suffering from a complaint, it shows it is not a disease which 
 can be easily diagnosed. 
 
 PRESIDENT : I am not suggesting this as a means of ascertaining the 
 facts. I am rather putting the case on behalf of the miners themselves, 
 so that the authorities in Sydney, having their conception of the matter, 
 may be forced to take speedy action in the way you have both declared to 
 be desirable, by the appointment of a technical medical commission. In 
 fact, such a witness would say, through the Board of Trade, to the Govem- 
 raent of New South Wales, " This is the matter we complain of ; it is a 
 very serious one." It would be in the nature of a complaint. Of course, the 
 proprietors would not be prevented from calling a witness to criticise the 
 statements any doctor may make on behalf of the men, so that both sides of 
 the question would go before the public. At all events, it would do some 
 good in, that it would impress upon the authorities the seriousness of thi« 
 matter^ — particularly as I am told now that it is the cause underlying the 
 present cessastion of work. 
 
 Mr. EMERY : I question whether that is correct, your Honor. 
 
 PRESIDENT: At any rate, it would show the necessity for an inquiry 
 such as you ask. I do not care to answer that question myself. If the 
 suggestion I make is adopted— if it goes as a complaint against the Govern- 
 ment — then the Government will be awakened to its sense of responsibility, 
 and will act promptly, I should think.. 
 
 Mr. EMERY : I desire to emphasise the point that the mining companiei 
 are of the opinion that this matter should be investigated at the earliest 
 possible moment, and we should get intelligent medical men on it. 
 
24i 
 
 PEESIDENT : I do not think anything will be done for the determina- 
 tion of that question until the proper body is appointed to handle it, but I 
 thought some general good might come — and some benefit— to this part of 
 the State, and the State as a whole, if that which is a matter of complaint 
 in respect of these diseases were presented at once in the way I have out- 
 lined, and an opportunity given to the management of criticising the evi- 
 dence from their point of view; it would be a step forward. I do not say- 
 that the Board of Trade will thereupon determine the matter; but it could 
 use it as a handle or instrument by means of which it could force the 
 governing authorities to go on with what is so urgently required. 
 
 Mr. EMERY : We would be willing to co-operate in any way in any step 
 which would force upon the Government the necessity of investigating this 
 question at the earliest possible moment. 
 
 PEESIDENT : I think it would be better for it to be held in Sydney— 
 not that I am averse, or that the members of the Board are averse, to coming 
 up here. As a matter of fact, I got a telegram while I was hero asking me 
 to consider the advisability of some of the members of the Board of Trade 
 coming up at once; they were quite prepared to be here to-day or to-morrow, 
 but I can see at the present time there is clearly nothing for them to do. 
 I did not advise them to come, and it occurred to me that the suggestion I 
 have outlined would be a better form of procedure for the time being. It is 
 a preliminary step really. I think I will suggest that to the Board of 
 Trade, and I would like you to consider it, and either oppose it or agree to 
 it — that the miners have an opportunity, through the A.M.A. — the A.M.A. 
 is really the miners, for the purpose of this inquiry — of placing their case 
 strongly before the Board. They could be represented for this purpose by 
 one or two witnesses, one, if possible; they could set out the facts as they 
 complain of them here in respect of their work, and put that up, as it were, 
 to the people of New South Wales, the proprietors at the same time having 
 an opportunity of criticising that case, so far as they know, admitting it, 
 and so far as they do not know, disputing it. Then the Board of Trade, 
 armed with such evidence, could surely impress upon the official mind the 
 urgent importance of getting to work immediately with this medical expert 
 committee. 
 
 Mr. EMERY : It would not be much good criticising the evidence adduced 
 by the A.M.A. unless we had some medical evidence to support us in our 
 criticisim. All the Board of Trade could do at the present time would be 
 possibly to obtain a statement from other medical men in the town, and 
 get their views on the question of occupational diseases generally. 
 
 PRESIDENT : Yes, that might be done in writing. 
 
 Mr. EMERY: That could be done; they all may have views on this 
 matter. 
 
 PEESIDENT : The doctor who has considered it is Dr. Burnell, I under- 
 stand. 
 
 Mr. EMERY : He has not aamined it from our point of view. He is the 
 Government certifying surgeon under the Act. The hospital doctor ex- 
 
25 
 
 amiiied some cases; ho had nothing to do with the A.M.A. Dr. Birks, the 
 medical referee, is another hospital doctor; then there is Dr. Stevens, a 
 local man, -who was engaged to examine the men on our behalf. 
 
 PEESIDENT: Perhaps it could be arranged by writing. Perhaps these 
 doctors would be willing to furnish something in the nature of a report? 
 
 Mr. KERE: The difficulty is that we have written everything that we 
 could possibly think of which would have any effect. We have wired to 
 livery member of Parliament; we have had deputations to the Minister; we 
 have placed all the facts that we know of, and at considerable cost, before 
 the authorities, but somehow or other we have been blocked from getting 
 any satisfaction. 
 
 PRESIDENT : It may be that any result bearing upon the true inquiry 
 into the question, as to the extent to which these diseases exist, or their 
 cause or prevention, will be best achieved by exciting the public mind, by 
 putting plainly before it in Sydney the cause of complaint, which not only 
 thffl mine-owners have, but the miners themselves, in this particular matter. 
 I am much inclined to favour the idea which I have suggested of getting, 
 say, a witness from each side over in Sydney, with a view to creating 
 greater publicity. 
 
 Mr. KERR : We have our check inspector over there now. 
 
 PRESIDENT : If the Board of Trade thought that the witnesses I have 
 suggested should be brought to Sydney, would you co-operate and send your 
 man? 
 
 Mr. KERE : No, your Honor. The A.M.A. have already sent two wit- 
 nesses there, and when they got there the Board of Trade declined to hear 
 them, and promised to come up here. Personally, I do not think the A.M.A. 
 would consider sending any more witnesses over to Sydney. 
 
 PRESIDENT: It might not be necessary for them to go in that way; 
 but supposing it were thought necessary, you would have no objection, I 
 take it, as a citizen, quite irrespective of the A.M.A., to suggest the names 
 of those who should go.' 
 
 Mr. KERR: No objection at all, your Honor. 
 
 PRESIDENT : And the Board of Trade could arrange for their attend- 
 ance if they thought my suggestion should be acted upon. 
 
 Mr. EMERY.; Personally, I think Dr. Birks or Dr. Bumell, men who 
 are not connected with the mining companies or the miners in any way, 
 would give the Board of Trade all the information it desired. They would 
 be able to furnish all the facts and all the figures, and, moreover, they are 
 ■the only two medical men in Broken Hill who have made a close study 
 of these particular occupational diseases. They are trained men who have 
 acquired their knowledge examining these very cases in the hospital. 
 
 PRESIDENT: You understand this is not an inquiry into the matter 
 in a scientific way. The only place for that'inquiry is here, on the spot. It 
 is not at all with a view to transferring the inquiry from Broken Hill to 
 
26 
 
 Sydney that I am making this suggestion. I am quite convinced that the 
 only jplace where the scientific investigation can be made is here in the 
 mines, and amongst the people of Broken Hill. But my idea is that the 
 public mind — the public conscience, as it were — ought to be thoroughly 
 aroused in this matter — and the best way to do that would probably be to 
 give the public the information required, to urge the Government to push 
 on with the investigation, to let them know all that is said as to the neces- 
 sity for such an inquiry, and to strengthen the hands of the Board of 
 Trade in its work with the Government as regards the creation of this 
 important tribunal, and getting it into operation at the earliest possible 
 moment. That is my only idea. I do not wish you to mi9tm.derstand me. 
 
 Mr. KEER : I understand your Honor perfectly. Our point of view is 
 that we have done everything possible now. During the past two months 
 we have placed all the facts at our disposal before the public of Sydney 
 in every manner we could think of ; we have placed them before an audience 
 in the Town Hall here, which was overcrowded ; we have placed them before 
 the leading newspapers of the country ; we have already done almost every- 
 thing in that line that is humanly possible. It cannot be said that we have 
 not done our utmost to stir up puhlic agitation in this matter. 
 
 PRESIDENT: However, the Board of Trade is the body that has to 
 perform that duty. .It is in a different position from any other person or 
 body in the State. It has the duty placed upon it of inquiring into the 
 matter, and therefore the duty of advising the executive as to the proper 
 steps to be taken and to constantly urge upon them the necessity for prompt 
 action. I will go into all these points with the Board of Trade when I 
 rf-turn to Sydney. 
 
 Mr. EMERY : I take it the Board of Trade has already Tecommended to 
 the Minister that the technical commission we have referred to should be 
 appointed ? 
 
 PRESIDENT : Yes. 
 
 Mr. EMERY: I can only repeat, if there is anything we can do towaTds 
 expediting that Commission we are willing and anxious to co-operate in 
 every possible way. 
 
 PRESIDENT: Nothing of importance will be done until that Commis- 
 sion is appointed and is here at work. The public may take it that no Btep 
 in advance has been made until that Commission is in operation, and as to 
 how long their work will take, nobody can foretell accurately; it is new 
 work ; it is a big question. There is, as I have already said, certain guidance 
 for that body by the work which has been done in South Africa, and perhaps 
 somewhere else. I do not know of any American work having been done 
 in this connection. Do you know whether investigations have been made in 
 America, Mr. Emery? 
 
 Mr. EMERY : I believe some work has been done there. 
 
 PRESIDENT: No doubt. there will have been, though I have not myself 
 heard of it. There surely must have been something done in view of the 
 enormous production of silver and lead in America. 
 
27 
 
 Mr., EMEEY; I fed pretty sure there has been. If I remember rigktly 
 ref-erence was made at the Board of Trade inquiry by a doctor to certain 
 American authorities. I forget the, date of that. 
 
 PEESIDEHT: There will be no step forward until that commission is 
 at work, and how rapidly or slowly the results will proceed events alone can 
 tdJ. 
 
 Mr. EMEEY: If there is anything that can be done to hurry that com- 
 mission along, we are willing to do our part, at all events. 
 
 Mr. ,EEEE: And we, will do our part,, too, to push it forward. 
 
 PEESIDENT : Very well; I shall tell the Board of Trade that, in the 
 opinion of' all parties, the most essential thing is to have this commission 
 appointed and set to work here; then I shall discuss the other matters I 
 have mentioned. Is-there any other person present who desires to be heard? 
 
 Mr. EMEET; Mr. Wainwrigihthas something to say. 
 
 Mr. WA.INWEIGHT : Personally I would like to say that the sugges- 
 tions that have been discussed here to-day have been debated frequently in 
 the past, and our efforts have been directed chiefly to the appointment of a 
 technical commission as the only practical solution of the 'problem. The 
 health of the miners, as I am sure your Honor will realise, is followed care- 
 fully by the companies that employ them, and I would not like that remark 
 of' your Honor's to go quite unqualified that nothing will result until the 
 technical commission is appointed here. We have been doing, and are 
 still' doing, all that is possible in the absence of that commission. 
 
 PEESIDENT : You are quite right to qualify it in that way. I did not 
 mean that, of course. I should have said nothing will be done in the pro- 
 -ceedings of the Board" of Trade until that commission is in existence. It 
 should' be so qualified. I am glad you drew my attention to that. 
 
 Mr. WAIN W EIGHT : The investigations are really proceeding in so 
 far as it is possible for a body of comparative laymen to conduct them. 
 As your Honor has pointed out, it is a commission which reqtiires the 
 skilled minds of technically-trained men, men who are not ordinary medical 
 practitioners. In South Africa — your Honor will doubtless have read the 
 literature — an investigation of this nature has taken quite a number of 
 years, and I am just as satisfied as the Board of Trade is that no final 
 result can accrue until, at the very least, twelve months. At the same 
 time an interim report could be made in a shorter period. The Board of 
 Trade, when it does come here, will probably be surprised to find that the 
 mining companies, in so far as they have been able, have left no stone 
 unturned in an endeavour to grapple with this difficult problem. We already 
 have an excellent X-ray outfit, which will certainly be of material help to 
 tlie scientific men when they arrive. The South African report is being 
 studied, and the apparatus referred to there has been obtained for Broken 
 Hill. Investigations have already taken place in Broken Hill. There was 
 an inquiry here in 1912, but unfortunately it was not as exhaustive as it 
 might have been. Medical witnesses were then examined in connection 
 with dust in the lungs, and suggestions were made that it would be far 
 better to have that medical evidence supplemented by medical examination 
 
28 
 
 of the men themselves, as is now thought advisable by the Board of Trade. 
 For my own part, I can only cordially endorse the Board of Trade's sug- 
 gestion that that technical commission should come here at the earliest 
 possible moment. Broken Hill is the only place where any practical result 
 can be achieved. The A.M.A., to its credit, has done all it possibly could 
 to bring the importance of this matter most forcibly before the Govern- 
 ment. Their check-inspector, Mr. O'Reilly, is now in Sydney, and is, I am 
 sure, doing his utmost to push the matter along. I do not think the A.M.A. 
 could have brought it more forcibly under the notice of the Government 
 than they have done. Neither could we. As to procedure, when the com- 
 mission of medical experts is in full swing here, I do not think the medical 
 men who are here should put up a case. It would be much more satisfac- 
 tory, I think, to have the men themselves as witnesses, rather than have 
 local medical men appearing, as it were in the role of counsel. 
 
 PEESIDENT: Thank you, Mr. Wainwright. I think I have achieved 
 my object. My mind is quite clear now that nothing will be done until this 
 commission is appointed and is at work. I shall report that to the Board 
 of Trade, and urge, and keep on urging, on the Government the necessity; 
 for this investigation. I do not think it will require much pressure now. 
 Trom certain things I know I feel sure the Government is anxious to be 
 informed on this matter, and I feel pretty certain that some steps will be 
 taken — I shall not say immediately, but at any rate very soon — in the 
 matter. I promise you that while I hold the office I do I shall not relax my 
 efforts or my interest in this subject, and I shall do all I can to have it 
 proceed in the proper way. 
 
 I think you very much for attending here this morning. I feel sure the 
 discussion we have had will lead to beneficial results. I shall have the 
 advantage of a full shorthand note of everything that has been said. I 
 shall read it through, and it will bo placed before the Board of Trade almost 
 immediately on my return to Sydney. I thank you very much indeed. 
 
29 
 
 APPENDIX II. 
 
 Eeport of Proceedings ax Sydnef re Miners' 
 Occupational Diseases. 
 
 FRIDAY, 29th AUGUST, 1919. 
 
 Present :— The Acting President (HIS HONOR 'Mr. JUSTICE 
 J^DMUNDS), The Deputy President, Mr. J. B. HOLME, and Com- 
 missioners, Messrs. WILLINGTON, ROUTLEY, KAVANAGH, and 
 COOPER. 
 
 PRESIDENT: The reference which the Minister made to the Board 
 of Trade on the 28th June and the 23rd August last year in respect of 
 the existence of miners' phthisis amongst employees in metalliferous mines, 
 in the rock-chopping and sewer-mining industry, and in ore treatment, 
 refining and reduction works, extending also to pneumonoeoniosis amongst 
 quarrymen, stonemasons, and other employees working in stone, resulted 
 in the interim report published by the Board of Trade on the 9th December, 
 1918. That report, after going extensively into the matter, made a definite 
 recommendation, for the purpose of satisfactorily dealing with and com- 
 pleting the inquiry into the matter so far as it could be done, for the crea- 
 tion /of what has been called a council of experts. At page 145 of the 
 report it stated that an inquiry conducted by independent medical and 
 scientific specialists is alone likely to provide the data upon which a sound 
 judgment can be based. The first of the recommendations stated on page 
 147 reads as follows: — 
 
 The first of the recommendations now made implies that there should 
 be established within the State, either in association with the existing 
 Department of Health or otherwise, a scientific body having authority 
 to conduct investigations to ascertain the incidence and effects of the 
 disease, and to safeguard the administration of the compensatory and 
 remedial provisions of the scheme. This body should, if constituted, be 
 in a position to do the work of the technical commission mentioned in. 
 the second and other recommendations now made. 
 
 Following upon that report, there has been some correspondence between 
 the Government and the Board of Trade, with a view to the creation of this 
 council, and recently the. Premier requested the Board of Trade to make 
 some estimate of the cost oE such a commission or council. It seemed 
 to the Board of Trade before it could answer that, that it was necessary 
 to consider how such a council should be constituted, and then 
 
30 
 
 go on to tlie question of what would be the probable cost. Up at 
 Broken Hill I had the advantage of conferring with all parties interested 
 in the matter. The mining companies were there represented, and the 
 employees were represented by the officers of the A.M.A. Both parties were 
 in absolute agreement upon the necessity for the creation of such a council 
 as early as possible, and proceeding with the work of the same. There 
 appears to be a unanimity of view on the part of the persons interested 
 in the industry at Broken Hill, and as those views coincide with the views 
 expressed by the Board in their report, we now proceed with this question 
 of how the council should be constituted, and what would be the likely 
 cost of such a body. I notice that several gentlemen have been good enough 
 to come here who are interested in the matter, many of them, I suppose, 
 having been invited by the secretary^ and -if those who desire to take a 
 part in the proceedings will be kind enough to give their names as appearing, 
 we shall then have a record of the same in our official transcript. 
 
 Mr. E. 'N. KIRK : I represent the various Broken Hill companies — the 
 Broken Hill Proprietary and the majority of the' Broken Hill companies 
 in Sydney. Mr. G. C. Klug and Mr. G. Nicholson are the members of the 
 Barrier Mines Association here, and they will look after the interests of the 
 Broken Hill Mines. 
 
 Mr. G. C. KLUG: As president of the Australian Mines and Metals Asso- 
 ciation, and also as a member of the committee of representatives of the 
 Barrier Mines, I am here representing the following Broken Hill com-, 
 panies : — The Amalgamated Zinc, the North Broken HilT, the British Broken 
 Hill Proprietary Company, the Junction North, the Sulphide Corporation, 
 the Broken Hill South, the Zinc Corporation, Block 14, and Block 10. 
 
 Mr., A. C. WILLIS : I represent the A.M.A. at Broken Hill, together with 
 Mr. O'Reilly, who will be here in a few minutes. 
 
 Mr. A. VERNON : I represent the United Labourers working in rock- 
 
 Dr. STOKES : I have been sent here to represent the Water and Sewferage 
 Board, so far as their interests may be concerned in this inquiry. 
 
 PRESIDENT : May I ask if you gentlemen have come from Broken Hill 
 at the invitation of this Board expressly on this matter ? 
 
 Mr. KLUG : Yes ; we were advised- by the association,, and my committee 
 immediately took steps to be represented lierei 
 
 PRESIDENT: Did you come across particularly on this matter? 
 
 Mr. KLUG: Tes, I came across particularly on this matter from 
 Melbourne. 
 
 Mr. G. H. BUCKLAND: I am representing the Federated Mine 
 Employees' Association of New South Wales, or, as it is now loiown, the 
 Mining Section of the A.W.U. We have- interests right ■ throughout' New 
 South Wales. The letter I have received this- morning seems to particuferly 
 refer to Broken Hill. 
 
 PRESIDIlNT: It did. 
 
 Mx. BUCKLAND: If that is so, I cannot understand why the inquiry 
 should be particularly confined to Broken Hill, because mining is mining 
 
SI 
 
 ■ in any part of the State, although Broken Hill, undoubtedly, is the main 
 mining field in Australia. Still, right throughout the other parts of New 
 South Wales there are big mines, and miners' phthisis and the diseases round 
 about the mines , exists in those other fields. If the necessity exists to go 
 to Broken Hill on this particular matter, it certainly must exist so far as 
 the other fields are concerned. 
 
 TKESIBENT: You are quite right. There is no line of that kind pro- 
 posed to be drawn. It is true that in the form which was sent out Broken 
 Plill was expressly mentioned, but there is no limitation of that kind either 
 in the discussion now before the Board or in the future operations of the 
 Board, so that it may be considered that the whole matter is-at large, and 
 that not only Broken HiU, but the whole interests of the State in the 
 matters which have been referred to the Board that I have read are now 
 under discussion, and the constitution of an. expert council is for the pur- 
 pose of dealing with it over the State as a whole. Of course, it may be that 
 it will be expressly directed to Broken Hill, but there is no conflict between 
 the interests of Broken Hill in that respect and any other part of the 
 State. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : It might probably be explained that the demand for this 
 peculiar inquiry came, I think, first from the Hill, but it was not intended 
 that it should be confined to the Hill at all. It was understood that wher- 
 
 ■ ever it was needed it would be inquired into. 
 
 PRESIDENT: Messrs. Brookfield and Wright have been notified of this 
 meeting, and they were invited to attend. They had been in communica- 
 tion with the Board on the matter before, and we thought that they should 
 be informed of the meeting and asked to attend here. I do not know 
 if they are in attendance. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : Mr. Brookfield is in hospital in Adelaide. 
 
 PRESIDENT : Notifications have also been sent to - Messrs. G. Eerr, 
 J. Middling, and W. Bamett, representing the employees (they are the 
 oiEcials, I think, of the A.M.A.), and Messrs. Wainwright, 0. Emery, 
 J. Horwood, Hebbard, and Greenlees, representing the employers. 
 
 Mr. KLUG : I represent the interests of the latter gentlemen. 
 
 PRESIDENT: Messrs. Wainwriglit, Horwood and Emery hare notified 
 their inability to attend by reason of Wages Board engagements. Mr. 
 Hebbard states that a delegation will be arranged from Melbourne. Erom 
 the tenor of another wire received from Mr. Nicholson, isecretary of the 
 Barrier Mines Committee, it will probably consist of that gentleman, Mr. 
 Nicholson, and Mr. Klug, president of the Mines and Metals Association. 
 Notices of the meeting have been sent to various other persons. Mr. J. B. 
 
 ■ Jaquet will be unable to attend on account of other engagements. Mr. 
 Bodkin will be unable^to arttend, but suggests that Dr. Arthur should form 
 one of the appointments to the Commission. Dr. Herschel Harris has 
 furnished a report, and certain evidence will be given by Dr. Kesteven, 
 D.Sc, M.D., Ch.M. 
 
32 
 
 The matter was referred for consideration by the medical and scientific 
 authorities of the Sydney University so that we might have the benefit of 
 their advice, and a memorandum has been sent, signed by Sir Thomas 
 Anderson Stuart, with reference to the matter, which I shall now read. It 
 is dated 27th August : — 
 
 Meeting at University Chambers, this day, 3.30. Present: Sir 
 Thomas Anderson Stuart, Professor Wilson, and Professor Chapman. 
 
 After considerable discussion it was resolved to recommend that a bio- 
 chemist should be appointed to make a preliminary investigation of the 
 atmosphere of certain mines, viz., those that are probably the worst and 
 those that are probably the best. On the results of this examination, 
 the medical examination of the individual miners would then proceed; 
 i this would entail the appointment of a physician and a radiographer — 
 ,i what percentage of the body of miners should be examined would de- 
 , pend upon the examination of the first one or two hundred men, and 
 this would probably give the guiding lines on which the investigation 
 should further proceed. Those first examined would be done in great 
 detail, and might be expected to give standards such that the examina- 
 tion of the remainder would be much more expeditiously conducted. It 
 was resolved to recommend that Dr. Halcro Wardlaw, D.Sc, should be 
 appointed to proceed to Broken Hill during the long vacation. Dr. 
 Wardlaw is a bio-chemist of experience and repute, and would carry out 
 the investigation of the atmosphere as suggested above. We suggest 
 that he be paid at the rate of fifty pounds per month with all allowances, 
 for travel, board, &c. As well as his work at Broken Hill, he would 
 also be at work for some time in Sydney both before and after being at 
 Broken Hill. Later on, questions might emerge requiring the advice of 
 a pathologist, but these can be dealt with when they arise. 
 
 (Signed) Thomas Anderson Stuaet. 
 
 Then Dr. Herschel Harris has been good enough to send a communication, 
 upon the subject. He is a very busy man, of course, and knowing that we- 
 might have a difficulty in having him in attendance, we asked him if he 
 would put his views in the form of a letter, and he has been good enough to 
 do so. I shall read his letter, which is dated 22nd August, 1919, and 
 addressed to the President of the Board of Trade. It is as follows : — 
 
 Dear Sir, — 
 
 At your request I have pleasure in submitting the following report : — 
 I understand that it is contemplated installing an X-ray outfit at 
 
 Broken Hill to examine some thousands of miners as regards miners' 
 
 phthisis. Two essentials are necessary : — 
 
 (1) An up-to-date outfit. 
 
 (2) A medical expert capable of doing the work. 
 
 No. 1.— Outfit. 
 The best should be installed as the better the outfit the mpre accurate 
 . are the results. I advise an outfit similar to that which I iise in private, 
 and which is being copied by Prince Alfred Hospital for their new 
 department. Apparatus should include: — 
 ,^ (1) A screen outfit, so as to examine each patient in the first placa 
 
 1" (.2) A radiographic outfit, so as to make a permanent plate record 
 
 ! of each case. 
 
33-^ 
 
 A permiuient print shouH then be made of eac'li case to iile witli each 
 history. For an up-to-date outfit £1,000 should be required. Witli 
 rising prices it is always-difficult to be quite sure within £100 or so, but 
 probably this will suffice. I Would advise the apparatus .being obtained 
 from America, and if desired I can supply full details of what is re- 
 quired. 
 
 No. 2.— Medical Expert. 
 
 This will be the most difficult job. It would not do to employ any 
 Tom, Dick, or Harry to carry out this work. A very reliable medical 
 man should be employed, and ome who has had special training in this 
 branch. 
 
 To obtain such a man I advise advertising in all the States, and if 
 necessary making him undergo a special training in one of the large 
 metropolitan hospitals for, say, six months. I feel sure that Prince 
 Alfred Hospital will open its doors to such a nym, and, personally, I 
 
 " shall be only too pleased to assist him in any way possible. The new 
 department at Prince Alfred Hospital will be in working order near the 
 end of the year' with the apparatus I advise, aild it would be a good 
 
 . opportunity for him to attend. . 
 
 Then about the two lay assistants. 
 
 (1) A skilled electrician, to look after the apparatus and to assist 
 otherwise. 
 
 (2). A good photographer, to develop the plates and to assist other- 
 wise. 
 
 To obtain good men, good salaries should be paid. Por the rdedical man 
 I would advise £700 per annum', and for him to keep himself, and for the 
 two lay assistants for them to be paid above union award so as to 
 attract the best. The outlay will be very large, and an extra pound or 
 two a week in wages will practically make no difference. Very large 
 quantities of X-ray material and chemicals should be procured. I 
 would advise "Ilford" X-ray plates. They are the best in the world. 
 They should be procured direct from the Ilford factory in England at 
 the rate of 20 gross at a time. The plates' roughly cost 2s. 6d. each. 
 The other items necessary for printing and dark-room purposes can be 
 tabulated later. The laymen should have experience in this branch of 
 work, too, and they should also be advertised for. With a good staff 
 from forty to fifty cases a day could be examined. The work should not 
 be -rushed, as it is tiring and monotonous, and needs exceptional care. 
 The appointment of the medical man and the two assistants should be 
 for one year at least, and a binding agreement should be made on their 
 part in case that, after tedious tuition, they may alter their minds. 
 
 1 take it that after twelve months' experience in this work the medical 
 man and his assistants will be well qualified for special work in any 
 large centre, tand'this in- itseM should be a great inducement to draw 
 applications from energetic and ambitious men. 
 
 At present I think that this is all the information necessary, and 
 later,- if required, J. shall be pleased to -mention the exact items neces- 
 sary, and, roughly, the cost. 
 
 This part is somewhat tedious, and as I feel sure £1,000 will cover 
 the. cost of X-ray apparatus, I trust that this is sufficient information 
 for the present. 
 533S2— B 
 
84 
 
 : Naturally a dark-room must be fitted up thoroughly, and £100 should 
 
 cover this. 
 I The housing of the department, of course, I leave alone. 
 
 Trusting that this information is what is required for the presentj 
 I am, dear sir. 
 
 Yours faithfully, 
 (Signed) Hersohel Harris, M.B., Ch.M. 
 
 We shall now proceed to hear any of the gentlemen who are present wha 
 desire to discuss the topics that are before us. 
 
 Mr. OIBSON: The Quarrymen's Union have received notice of this 
 meeting, and as they thought there might be some assistance which they 
 might be able to render, they have asked me to appear here to render any 
 such assistance as may be in our power. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : Do I understand, on the statements that have been made, 
 that it is intended that this inquiry is to be confined to the question of 
 miners' phthisis? 
 
 PEESIDENT: It is not intended to place any limitation upon the dis- 
 cussion. I can only express my individual opinion on the inatter at present, 
 because it has not been considered, but it seems to me that first of aU the 
 diseases particularly under consideration are miners' phthisis and pneu- 
 monoconiosis, which is the subject of the original reference to this Board. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : Pneumoconiosis covers pulmonary complaints ? 
 
 PEESIDENT: I think that covers the whole field of miners' phthisis. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : This is very important from our point of view. If it is 
 merely tied down to miners' phthisis, we are advised that there are numerous 
 other diseases which would not be covered technically by that. 
 
 PEESIDENT : Quite so. That is only one matter referred to, and that 
 is the starting point. Probably it may be found that there can be no hne 
 drawn between that disease and the other diseases incidental to mining as 
 nn occupation. The next one which is most prominent is lead-poisoning. 
 The representatives of all parties at Broken Hill regard the two as matters 
 moat urgent for the consideration of the Board, and it will probably be 
 fouiid that the proceedings of the Board cannot be limited to any one of 
 those diseases, and possibly it may be not to the two, but will probably 
 extend to such diseases as there may be as might be called incidental to the 
 occupation. At all events, for the purposes of this discussion, we would 
 like to hear the views of you and those who are in attendance upon the 
 matter without any such restriction. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : I notice in the circular that it refers to lead-poisoning and 
 ankylostomiasis. 
 
 PEESIDENT: Ankylostomiasis is, I understand, the disease called 
 hook-worm. 
 
 . Mr. WILLIS: Yes. 
 
 PEESIDENT : In respect of that, there is the advantage at the present 
 time of there being an expert of the Rockefeller Institute in connection with, 
 nn investigation of that disease in Queensland, who is prepared to extend 
 his research into this' State or any other part of Australia. I think I may 
 
35 
 
 say that the Deputy-President of this Board, Mr. Holme, is in touch ■svith 
 that gentleman. I think there is a change going on at the present time in 
 the personnel; that is to say, the gentleman who is at present doing the 
 work is, I think, being relieved by some other official of that Institute, and 
 I think that Mr. Holme i§ in touch with both of those gentlemen, and I 
 understand that he has been informed by them that they are interested in 
 inquiring into that subject throughout the whole of Australia, and will be 
 very glad to co-operate with the Board or with any public authority in that 
 matter. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS: So long as it is clearly understood. I am sure you will 
 pardon me for being persistent on this point, but there have been inquiries 
 before and local inquiries, such as in the case of New Zealand. If the 
 thing is narrowed down to miners' phthisis, and if it is not perfectly clear 
 that they can cover all these pulmonary and occupational complaints, it 
 will be possible to say that miners' phthisis is a disease for which a miner 
 shall be compensated, but he may sufEer from a dozen other complaints 
 ■equally as bad, but which are called by some other techinical names that I 
 am not capable of expressing, which will prove quite as dangerous to him as 
 even that coming under the heading of phthisis, and for which no provision 
 would be made. We pressed this point when the matter came before Mr,. 
 Holme, the Deputy-President, and he gave us the assurance at that time- 
 that the inquiry when held would cover all kinds of occupational diseases,^ 
 and the impression given was that there would be no limitation. 
 
 PEESIDENT : There is no intention to limit the inquiry. The matter- 
 that will control the inquiry will no doubt be the public interest. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : That will help us a good deal. Your statement with regard' . 
 to the experts has largely covered the ground we had in view. 
 
 PEESIDENT : What I presume will be the method of campaign will he, 
 if we can get such a council as has been suggested, appointed at work, to 
 examine all the miners and other workmen such as quarrymen and others in 
 respect of their state of health. Such an examination must necessarily 
 extend the range of inquiry by these experts into the actual diseases from- 
 which they may be suffering. Although in the first .instance, the work may 
 be conducted more distinctly with reference to, say, pneumonoconiosis and 
 possibly lead-poisoning, yet it appears to me as if when that work is started 
 it must extend itself necessarily to all such complaints as may be described" 
 as occupational in respect of the men under investigation. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : That would not be confined to men actually working in the- 
 mines, such as at Broken Hill and other places. The men on top ar& 
 affected as well, I understand. 
 
 PEESIDENT : I do not think the matter will be restricted to any limi- 
 tation at the present time. I do not think there will be any rules laid down 
 of that kind. I presume ultimately not only the method of inquiry but the 
 whole scope of the inquiry will be very largely in the hands of the experts if 
 we get the council constituted. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : I understand that it is suggested that a record of the caries 
 examined will be kept and made accessible to interested parties. 
 
36 
 
 PRESIDENT : I presume so. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : I have to ask that that be a recommendation for this Cofm- 
 mission, that when the inquiry is made we want to know the result of it. 
 We do not want it pigeon-holed or locked up somewhere so that we shall Hot 
 know the result of it. We want to know what it says. 
 
 PRESIDENT: So far as one can see, I think that inasmuch as it is a 
 public work it must be open to the public for information. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : Will your Honor make a note that we make an application 
 that it shall be of that character? 
 
 PRESIDENT : Yes. Every word uttered here will appear in the tran- 
 script. 
 
 Mr. KAVANAGH : Does that mean the actual results of the examination 
 of any particulalr miner will be open to the public or to the persons interested 
 — the employer and employee — ^to see ? 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : Yes, the interested persons. 
 
 Mr. KAVANAGH : Of course, it has been suggested that the information 
 -should be kept strictly confidential for fear that a man showing the least 
 sign of the disease may be prevented from employment. However, we under- 
 stand the position now thoroughly. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : I am very pleased you mentioned that. In this matter, it 
 is different to inquiries which have been held before. The inquiries that 
 have been held have had this objected to usually because it has prejudiced 
 their chances of employment afterwards, but in this particular instance we 
 are instructed to ask that full reports be made available, or, at any rate, 
 accessible, and the worst is to be known. If it means that some hundreds 
 of men in the mines at Broken Hill have to be taken out of the mines, 
 that will have to be done. We are prepared to face it. In fact, that is 
 one thing we are instructed to insist upon. It is no use examining men and 
 find that they are infected, and then allowing them to go on and infect 
 others. That brings us to another point that I think the Board of Trade 
 or some authority should recommend, and that is that if a number of men 
 he found to be suffering in this way they will be displaced; tliat would 
 necessitate some provision being made for them afterwards. This again, 
 you will see, is an important matter from our point of view. We think it 
 ought to be faced even if the Government have to take on or provide some 
 farming scheme where these men can be put out and allowed to at least live 
 as long as they can afterwards. We think that some authority ought, to 
 have power to recommend legislation on those lines, or suggest it to the 
 Government. We are convinced that as a result of. this investigation,- a 
 ■considerable number of men will cease to work in the mines. We do not 
 mind that, but we say it is our duty to see that they are not just allowed 
 to stand about the street corners and die. Some provision should be 
 made for them afterwards. I think roughly those are the points from our 
 side that we would like to insist upon. I do not know whether that will come 
 within the scope of this Board. 
 
 There is one other point, and that is with regard to the costs of the in- 
 quiry. The .reports already read refer only to experts' apparatus required,' 
 
37 
 
 I undErstand. Well, in some instances,: it -will necessitate some loss to tlie 
 .men themselves, and we feel that they should be covered as well, and the 
 expense that they are put to in connection with this inquiry should be made 
 by the Government, or by the Government and the companies combined, or 
 either. . I do not care which.. Obviously we are not in a position to spend 
 large sums of money. We have already spent a considerable amount at 
 Broken Hill in preparing for this. We are not in a position to. go on 
 spending large sums of money even to get the best results from this inquiry. 
 As' it is a matter of national importance, we thirik that the whole inquiry 
 and matters incidental to it should be covered or met by the Government, 
 or conjointly by the Government and the employers, or J3y either of the 
 parties, whichever may be arranged. We make, that request. 
 
 Mr. KLUG: May it please the Board, the Broken Hill companies are 
 keenly desirous that an investigation by a technical commission consisting 
 of independent medical and scientific specialists shall be undertaken, and 
 we endorse the recommendation of the Board of Trade, and we are very 
 pleased indeed that your Honor took the opportunity when at Broken Hill 
 recently to, further advance the all-important question, which Mr. Willis 
 points out is one of national importance. We are desirous that this Com- 
 mission shall have its scope widened so as not only to take in miners'" 
 phthisis, but also to include plumbism and any other suspected occupational 
 disease. I think I might say, in expressing the desire of the companies in 
 . this "connection, tha,t it should not be assumed that the companies admit 
 that the existence of occupational disease is as prevalent, or is due to the 
 industrial conditions, now obtaining at Broken Hill, as is alleged in some 
 quarters. We are very desirous of a thorough investigation. I might 
 mention that already we are endeavouring to secure the services of a man of 
 very high medical attainments to proceed to Broken Hill and investigate 
 these very important matters. With regards to miners' phthisis, I might say 
 that it is very desirable that the history of the workmen should be deter- 
 mined, as it might be found that men have come to Broken Hill who have 
 contracted pneumonoconiosis elsewhere. That leads ine to this position : We 
 think in the interests of the employers and the employees that in connec- 
 tion with the engagement of men they should produce a certificate that they 
 are free from occupational disease, or, failing that, that the companies 
 should hav^e the right to have them examined. That condition obtains in 
 Western Australia to-day in connection with the miners' relief fund. That 
 relief fund was formed, following on the Commission which investigated 
 the question of occupational diseases in Western Australia in, I think, 
 1911; also in South Africa. South Africa went into this matter very 
 thoroughly. I feel sure that my friend Mr. O'Reilly vnll support me when 
 I say that we are desirous of preventing Broken Hill from becoming 
 an attractive centre for men from other parts who are already suffering 
 from occupational diseases. We think it is only fair to point out to the 
 Board of Trade that some legislation is necessary to protect not only the 
 employees but also the employers. There is another point in regard to lead- 
 poisoning. At the present time, the medical referee's decision is final. I do 
 not wish to suggest for one moment that there have been any cases of 
 •malingering at Broken Hill at the present time, but the present method 
 
38 
 
 affords an opportunity for the malingerer, and we think it only fair that 
 vrliere a company feels that the medical referee may have inadvertently com- 
 mitted an error in its decision, that it should have the right to refer to 
 another Board of technical or skilled medical advisers. 
 
 While dealing with this question of lead-poisoning, I might mention that 
 the company is surprised at the allegation that this can be contracted in 
 the sulphide zone, and, therefore, we are very desirous of having this point 
 definitely determined. As before mentioned, to this end we are hoping to 
 have a good man sent to Broken Hill, and we trust that he will be of 
 considerable assistance to the technical commission which this Board recom- 
 mends. We would strongly urge the Government to adopt the recommenda- 
 tion of this Board for the immediate appointment of a Commission. The 
 matter is such an important one that we consider every man engaged in the 
 industry should be examined, and not merely have a selection of a few men. 
 I think it is desirable that the work should be commenced as early as 
 possible, and judging by the indication given by your Honor just now that 
 it was estimated the medical commission would examine at the rate of 
 fifty men per diem, I think that will run into somewhere near twelve 
 months for the underground men alone. It is highly desirable that this 
 work should be expedited, and we think that in the interests of the industry 
 and the men it is very desirable that we should know the position as soon as 
 possible. We are anxious to do everything in the interests of the health of 
 the men, and a more, extensive commission might be necessary to expedite 
 the work. Based on the rate of fifty men per day, with approximately 3,000 
 underground men, it is going to take nearly twelve months to examine the 
 underground men alone. 
 
 Mr. KAVANAGH: Is not the main point for us to consider, according 
 to the reference, as to whether silicosis exists at Broken Hill? It has been 
 contended that it does not. Also as to whether lead-poisoning can be 
 contracted at the works ? 
 
 Mr. KLIJG: Yes, that is so. 
 
 Mr. KAVANAGH : It would not be necessary to examine the whole of the 
 employees to find that out, would it? 
 
 Mr. KLUG: I respectfully contend that it will be necessary for the Com- 
 mission to examine the whole of the employees to get a fair survey of the 
 whole position. The history of each individual miner must be known. We 
 feel it is hardly fair, because certain men have come from, say, Ballarat, or 
 from Western Australia or froin South Africa, arid they are found to be 
 suffering from miners' phthisis, that Broken Hill should be blamed for it. 
 
 Mr. WILLINGTON: Would not that involve two points, one that it does 
 not exist, and the other that it does, and what is the result of it? 
 
 Mr. KLUG: Certainly. I respectfully contend that to do this thing 
 thoroughly the whole position must be taken, and that a full analysis of 
 the whole position must be made by the Commission. 
 
 PRESIDENT: As Mr Eoutley has noted to me, at present only miners' 
 phthisis IS, I think, included iri the reference. To give us authority ta 
 
39 
 
 _<deal. with even lead-poisoning, or plumbism to give it its teclinical name, 
 the reference by the Minister to us would require to be enlarged. At the 
 .^ame time, I think it would be advisable if the discussion here by you 
 ^■entlemen extended to the whole field of occupational diseases. 
 
 Mr. KLUG: We welcome that suggestion. 
 
 PEESIDENT: It would be quite impracticable in dealing with one 
 "disease to exclude the other. 
 
 Mr. KLUG: Quite so. We welcome that suggestion. 
 
 Mr. KAVANAGH: Is lead-poisoning provided for under the present 
 Workmen's Compensation Act? 
 
 Mr. KLUG: Yes. 
 
 Mr. KAVANAGH: Then it does not come within the extent of our 
 reference, unless it is specially altered, because we are asked: — (1) To what 
 extent does miners' phthisis exist amongst employees in metalliferous mines, 
 in the rock-chopping and sewer-mining industry, and in ore treatment, 
 reffining, and reduction works? (2) Should this disease be included in the 
 schedule of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1916, and, if so, upon what 
 -terms ? That is the reference at present before us. We have to find whether 
 it exists, and then as to whether it should not be included in the Work- 
 men's Compensation Act. I understand that lead-poisoning is provided for 
 in the Workmen's Compensation Act. 
 
 Mr. KLIJG: Yes. ,■•■-.■- ^, 
 
 Mr. KAVANAGH: So that the suggestion of the general inquiry will be 
 with a view to some special legislatioii or some preventive measures being 
 .adopted to prevent the disease occurring. Is that what the employees are 
 now asking? 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : That is the idea. 
 
 Mr. KAVANAGH: In addition to the workmen's compensation, to go 
 further with a view to recommending to the Government some remedial 
 Treasure or preventive measures ? 
 
 Mr. WILLIS : Yes. We think if it is merely confined to including it in 
 the schedule, it is all right as far as it goes in regard to future litigation 
 and so on, but it will not meet the case. 
 
 Mr. KAVANAGH: I assumed that was what it was, but I wanted it 
 made clear. 
 
 Mr. KLUG: We join in that view. 
 
 PEESIDENT : Dr. Kesteven has been kind enough to give a precis of the 
 matter that he is prepared to give evidence about. I do not think I will 
 take it in the form of evidence. 
 
 Dr. KESTEVEN: I do not propose to put it in in the form of evidence. 
 I had a talk with Mr. Lamond, the Secretary to the Board, and he said he 
 would be pleased if I would come down and tell the Board what I thought 
 with reference to the importance of some of the qiiestions which were sub- 
 mitted to the Board originally. 
 
 PEESIDENT : Will you proceed on your own lines. ^ "' • . 
 
Dr. KESTEVEN: I begin with the following facts, wHcli may be takm 
 as established: — 
 
 (1) Miners, rock-choppers, stonemasons, and' others working in. atmos- 
 pheres laden with inorganic dust are liable to forms of pnenmoconiosis. 
 
 (2) These pneumoconiosis, of which silicosis is the most common and 
 the most serious, take the form of more or less diffuse interstitial fibrosis of 
 the lung. 
 
 (3) This fibrosis of the lung results in. a decrease, of el^asticity. This 
 decrease sooner or later limits the range of the respiratory movements. 
 
 (4) The disease is of insidious onset. 
 
 (5) Symptomatically it manifests itself first (except in those afflicted by 
 transcurrent infective processes) by the development of more or less short- 
 ness of breath and increased rate of heart beat. 
 
 It cannot be doubted (1) that the disease has progressed considerably 
 before it manifests itself by subjective symptoms. That is a perfectly 
 justifiable conclusion from the facts definitely established. 
 
 (2) That in the early stages of this fibrosis, while not yet actually limiting 
 the respiratory movements, it still is sufficiently developed to interfere with 
 the freedom of respiration by throwing more work on the muscles 
 thereof, so that the sufferer becomes more easily winded at work. 
 [The Board understand, I believe, th-at the lung is an elastic organ whicb 
 is, in the position of expiration, collapsed, and the act of inspiration re- 
 lieves the. pressure of the chest wall upon the lung, so that the wind natur- 
 ally rushes in. That is not an act of sucking the wind in, but it is an act 
 of relieving the pressure of the chest wall upon the lung, so that the wind 
 may go in, and the lung itself naturally expands when the chest wall is 
 lifted. If, however, the lung be fibrosed, then the chest wall has, as it were, 
 to exert a suction on the lung and open the lung out. It is as though an elastic 
 band were placed around the chest, and a man were asked to breathe against 
 the resistance of this elastic band. His first and perhaps also his second 
 efforts would produce full expansion, but the third, fourth, and fifth would 
 gradually become less.] (3) We may justifiably assume that the pathological 
 process is slowly cumulative. 
 
 Speaking as a medical man, and under the original reference to the 
 Board, the following questions seem to call for answer from a medical 
 and scientific bureau. The questions are seven in number, and they are as 
 follows : — 
 
 (1) To what extent does miners' phthisis (using that term in the broadest 
 sense, i.e., including tuberculous conditions) exist amongst the" classes of 
 workers liable to it? 
 
 (2) Can we devise a means of determining the presence of incipient 
 pneumoconiosis before the development of subjective symptoms; that is, 
 before the sufferer is sufficiently advanced in the disease to himself realise 
 that he is beginning to suffer discomforts ? 
 
 (3) Is there not an average period of work in a given siliceous or car- 
 bonaceous dusty atmosphere at or about which the subjective symptoms of 
 the disease may be expected to manifest themselves. 
 
41 
 
 (4): Once the disease has started, what is the average rate of progress ? 
 
 • (5) What is the pathological condition of the luiig at the various stages of 
 the uncomplicated disease? 
 
 (6) Assuming that the subject is always exposed to tubercular infection, 
 and this is a Justifiable assumption, does the fibroses proceed to some aver- 
 age stage of progress or average stage of development before the tubercu- 
 losis develops? That is, is there some danger period which, being warned 
 of, it may be possible to def ead against, or,, on the other hand,, does tuber- 
 culosis develop .quite haphazard ? 
 
 Now, I take it that to investigate or to answer these questions, we must 
 do as the last speaker said, exarnine not merely those who are already 
 sufEering, but an average sample of the whole of the workers in any par- 
 ticular industry. Some two or three thousand miners working at a mine 
 under particular circumstances should be examined. 
 
 The methods oi investigations which have been already dealt with are 
 three in number. 
 
 (1) Clinical examination and hiatory-taking. That is, by the use of the 
 stethescope and percussion— tapping the chest. These methods are gener- 
 ally agreed to be of at most secondary utility and yielding inconclusive 
 results. In the late stages they fail to differentiate between the complicated 
 condition and the uncomplicated condition, and in the early stages yield 
 negative results. 
 
 (2) Radiographic evidence is of doubtful value, leaving one undecided as 
 to- the cause of the fibrosis when clearly demonstrable; that is, it does not 
 differentiate between a tubercular or dust fibroses; and in the early stages 
 does not diffeprentiate between the condition arising from silicosis, and that 
 which is present in the lung of a heavy smoker. You have already got evi- 
 dence that those two methods do not yield satisfactory evidence in the early 
 stages of the disease, and they fail to give one any means of differentiating 
 between the absence of the pure form of the disease and the complicated 
 form, i.e., silicosis qua silicosis, and silicosis with tubercular infection. 
 
 (3) The third method already known is bacteriological evidence. This, if 
 positive, conclusively decides the question of transcurrent infective agen- 
 cies, but if negative, leaves one stiU. in doubt. One would impress that none 
 of these three lines of investigation have yielded results of value in early 
 cases. 
 
 There are, I believe, other lines of investigation which will throw light on 
 the early development of the disease. They are : — 
 
 (1) Spirometric; (a) by Hutchinson's spirometer; (6) by the box 
 spirometer. 
 
 (2) Ergometric examination by special ergometric apparatus; 
 
 (3) Combined spirometric and ergometric examination; and 
 
 (4) Gas analysis of the expired air and alveolar air; 
 
 To settle the questions raised, it is proposed now to employ all the means of 
 investigation just mentioned, regarding always the spirometric and ergo- 
 metric examinations and the tabiTlation of their results as the most, valu- 
 able- 
 
42 
 
 fiiiismuch as the disease is insidious in onset and slowly cumulative in 
 liatliological change, there can be little doubt that the careful analysis of the 
 volume of tidal air at rest and at work, and of the total expiratory or vital 
 capacity in a large series of miners should reveal the presence of impaired 
 .respiratory function at an earlier stage than that at which the impairment 
 becomes manifest. 
 
 In explanation of spirometric and ergometric apparatus and results, I 
 might state that a spirometer may be one of t* o forms : Hutchinson's 
 spirometer, which is probably familiar to the members of the Board, is 
 fashioned like a small gasometer. Into this, through a specially devised 
 mouthpiece, the subject is requested to breathe as in his ordinary respiration. 
 •In this method one estimates the amount of air taken in in ordinary 
 breathing, and that quantity is known as tidal air. What is known as the 
 total or the vital capacity of the lung is the amount of air which may be 
 drawn in in a deep inspiration, and then again expelled by the deepest 
 expiration. In normal breathing, one does not usually fill the chest to its 
 full capacity. The amount which may be drawn in above that usually 
 drawn in is known as complemented air. And again, in normal breathing, 
 the lung is not as' completely emptied as it can be. The amount of air 
 which can be expelkd after a normal expiration is known as supplemental 
 air. These figures once obtained with accuracy by means of Hutchinson's 
 spirometer, must be recorded and carefully considered. This instrument, 
 however, requires the subject to breathe under absolutely abnormal condi- 
 tions. With the box spirometer, one obtains normally a record of normal 
 Tespiration. The box spirometer is a chamber in which the subject sits 
 with his head only free in the open air. This chamber is air-tight up to 
 the neck. It carries a side tube, on the end of which a delicate rubber 
 membrane is placed, and when the chest of the subject is filled with air the 
 increased contents of the box causes the rubber membrane to bulge. A light 
 recording point which works over the membrane and is moved by it records 
 the movements and volume of respiration on a moving surface — one might 
 say, in the same way that a record aneroid barometer works. For the 
 investigation of miners' phthisis, one would devise special bos respirators, 
 - in which the miners might be placed so that they might handle their usual 
 tools of trade as nearly as possible under normal conditions. In this way, 
 requiring the men to work in the box spirometer, one would detect any 
 difficulty or impairment of respiratory acts. The object of normal work 
 and normal working conditions, such as the use of a pick by a stooping 
 miner, or a jumper by another man, or a rock-drill by a third man within 
 the box spirometer, is to obviate any complications or errors which might 
 conceivably arise by testing the man with work unfamiliar to him. I am 
 of the opinion that by such careful spirometer analysis of a large body of 
 men, it should be possible to determine the presence of impaired respiratory 
 function prior to the development of any subjective symptoms. 
 
 In similar fashion, assuming an impaired capacity for work, one would 
 
 by careful tabulation according to age and time spent in the occupation, 
 
 ■ analyse the work done on special ergometrical appliances, such appliances 
 
 being varied and designed to reproduce the actual muscular expenditure 
 
43 
 
 of the subjects -frhilst at their normal work. In explanation of the ergo- 
 metrical appliances which one would propose to use, and in quite a, rough 
 manner, taking first of all the case of a miner who uses a pick, one would 
 like to have that miner driving on to a block of wood, which block of wood 
 rests on a spring; By previous calibration one would have ascertained 
 that each inch, perhaps, which the block is driven downwards corresponds 
 to the expenditure of 1 foot lb. of energy upon it. One would so devise 
 the instrument that' each descent should be recorded by an arrangement of 
 ratchets and cogwheels. One would then require the miner to drive upon 
 that block as hard and as fast as he could over a definite period of time. 
 In this manner one would get a figure which would stand for the amount 
 of work which this miner was capable of doing in tha^ given time. Similarly, 
 one would devise an ergometric apparatus to be used by the man who handles 
 a jumper or a rock drill or any other tool in common use ah a mining 
 £eld.. 
 
 Also ergometric and spirometric records should be taken simultaneously, 
 so that one might obtain records of the respiratory rate and volume during 
 the performance of known quantities of work. 
 
 The Gas Analysis. — The gas analysis should be carried out over a long 
 series to determine whether the chronic catarrh usually present with fibrosis 
 has any lowering effect upon the rate of gaseous exchange in the lung. 
 If such an effect be suspected, more especially if it be actually proven, the 
 analysis must be applied to every case. The members of the Board are 
 probably well aware that the act of respiration is in its essential' factor an 
 exchange of gasses between the air in the lung and the blood, being a trans- 
 ference of oxygen from the air and carbonic acid gas from the blood. That 
 transference only takes place freely so long as the alveoli are healthy, and 
 of extreme thinness. Chronic catarrh thickens the respiratory surfaces 
 of the lung, certainly in patches, which are of varied extent. It is con- 
 •ceivable that this thickening of the respiratory lining lowers the rate of 
 gaseous exchange. 
 
 Bacteriological evidence and records are absolutely essential, because in 
 the presence of infective processes the rate of lung or respiratory impair- 
 ment would be high, and one's statistical averages would be vitiated by the 
 inclusion of such complicated cases. Just here I would also point out that 
 plumbism, which has already been referred to, would have to be included 
 in one's investigation, for the same reason that one needs the bacteriological 
 record. Bacteriological evidence would also be particularly valuable over a 
 long series as perhaps showing at that stage of the fibrotic condition infec- 
 tion is to be feared. Here I would point out that the routine examination 
 of sputa, which has proven so unreliable, would need to be supplemented 
 by the injection of sputum into guinea pigs, which are particularly sus- 
 •ceptible to tuberculosis, for it commonly happens that a sputum which 
 yields negative resiilts under the microscope yields one very tuberculous 
 in guinea pigs. 
 
 Referring biaek to the effect upon statistics of the inclusion of tuberculous 
 cases, take the case^ of a man wha arrives on the field already tubercular. 
 It may well b^ that within six moiiths that man's .capacity for work has been 
 
already extensively lowered, whereas the noimal rate of lowering would 
 obviously be much less, if it existed, at all. Therefore, the inclusion of the 
 tubercular case would give one an erroneous figure of the rate of the 
 impaired capacity for work by the silicosis. 
 
 Eadio-grapbic records should he kept in every case. I am of the opiniffli 
 that this work could be probably carried out at one of the local hospitafeJlto 
 each centre. I believe the essential thing that is required in this direction 
 is a good photographic record from each chest examined. Here I would 
 stress again that these records must be not merely of cases of individuals 
 suffering from the disease, but of every chest examined in the course of 
 investigation. One would anticipate that one would then arrive at a series 
 of group portraits for *he various classies which develop amongst the miners 
 out of one's invfestigations, corresponding to the various stages of the 
 developmeril of the disease. One would then be able to obtain over, perhaps, 
 a series of 150 miners who have been on the field for, say, six months, one 
 kind of photograph as. Gompared with photographs over a series of a similar 
 number who have been on the field for a period of twelve months, aad 
 similarly with regard to those who have been on the field for longer perip/fe. 
 The pathological examination of all lungs obtainable is desirable, more 
 particularly, however, the lungs of cases where death was due to some disease 
 not involviag the lung, as, for instance, typhoid fever or mine accidents. 
 One would then obtain material which would correspond to various stages, 
 and with greatest interest to thei early stages in the disease; and it is with 
 a view to" obtaining just this material, as well as with a view to statistical 
 results, that one proposes to examine so large a series of miners, so that 
 these fortunate, or unfortunate, deaths shall provide us with pathological 
 material which may be correlated with the statislical tables obtained by the 
 other methods of investigation. 
 
 The apparatus for spirometrical and ergometrical records can, I believe, 
 be locally made. This apparatus, once made, would need to be kept in a 
 perfect state of repair, and after each day's work immediately carefully cali- 
 brated — that is, tested as to the accuracy, or, rather, as to the constancy 
 of the records which it is yielding. Thus one may point out that if an 
 ergometric apparatus in which the measurement of the energy expended 
 depends upon the resiliency of a spring, it is essential that the weakening of 
 that spring by constant use shall be detected as soon as it occurs, otherwise 
 it might well be that at the end of three monliis the instrument would be 
 recording, perhaps, as much as one-third more than that has really been 
 expended upon it. I happen to know of a man who has been engaged for 
 very many years in just such work as this, and I have reason to believe 
 that his services could be obtained by this Board, though I have naturally 
 not approached him. 
 
 With regard to the time. Dr. Herschel Harris estimates that radiographic 
 records could be taken at the rate of fifty a day. Personally I am mu<!ii 
 less optimistic. Estimating that ten per day could be put through the 
 complete examination, and omitting Sunday, it would take about nine 
 months to complete the examination of 2,000 workers. In arriving at the 
 time the complete bureau would need to be in Existence, this estimatioji 
 
probably would need douBlimg, in order to allow for the necessary delay in 
 Ae organisation of the staff' and assembling, of the apparatus, and the 
 interruptions involved by the removal from field to field. From amongst 
 those 2,0©0 workers, it is probable that two or- three hundred cases could be 
 seketed whom the bureau regarded as either definitely dusted or showing 
 suspicious signs thereof, but who would refuse to change their occupation. 
 These cases, if examined for a subsequent period of eighteen months or 
 two years periodically, would yield one figures which might be expected' 
 to cither confirm or modify the rate of progress of the disease as decided 
 upon by the single examination of the original 2,000. It timy prove desir- 
 aMe at the ead of eighteen months to go back to one's first field of examina- 
 tion and re-examine the whole of the subjects at th-at centre. Anthracosis, 
 the coal-miner's form of pneumoconiosis, is eminently worthy of investiga- 
 tion, though this investigation might well stand over until the exainination 
 of silicosis has been completed. One might mention that the whole of the 
 records of the Bureau could be placed on icxhibition for the examination 
 of interested parties, saving only such personal history as the miners, 
 themselves may wish kept confidential. Tor comparative purposes, records; 
 q£- two or three hundred healthy labourers not employed in a dusty atmos- 
 phere may be desirable as a preliminary investigation, in order to obtain 
 normal spirometric and ergometric figures amongst healthy workers. 
 Without such it is conceivable that errors may creep into one's work. Thus- 
 it, is conceivable that a man commencing work at the age of 20, as he 
 approaches the prime of life, under healthy circumstaaora should develop 
 a greater capacity for work, whilst the same man working in a dusty, 
 atmosphere may, develop no increased capacity for work, owing to a, mild, 
 condition of silicosis.. In the absence of previous knowledge that increased 
 capacity should have existed, one would fail to realise that this man had; 
 aictually lost a portion of his potential capacity for work. Dr. Ritchie drew 
 attention to the fact that there was increasing evidence that a great, 
 proportion, if not all the dust in a dusted lung reached the lung by way of- 
 the intestines and the blood vessels, and one would be interested to 
 gaufcavour to get together a group of fifty to sixty miners who would be 
 trained to avoid the swallowing of their Spittle, in order to obviate the 
 passage of dust from the mouth and throat into the intestines. The' 
 Board will remember that the lung may be liken«d to a tree, whereof every 
 leaf is a little balloon of respiratory epithdium— is, in fact, a group of 
 alveoli, as already defined to the Board by Dr. Ritchie; that the trunk, 
 branches, twigs, and leaf stems correspond to the various ramifications gf, 
 the bronchial ^stem. I would explain to the Board that the whole of this 
 system is lined by what might be likened to a living fur; each hair thereof, 
 working in unison with every other hair, is continually sweeping from the 
 alveolus to tJie throa,t the minute quantities of dust ajid mucus. Prom 
 time to time as we speak, this mucus collects in a little pocket at the back 
 of the throat ; we give a little cough, dislodge it into the throat, and com- 
 monly swallow it. This mucus is undoubtedly heavily laden with dust 
 when a man is working or living in a dusty atmosphere. It is, these little 
 bits ef mucus that we would like to train the miner to expectorate. .Such 
 ftSrei^P as tJ^is should be kept under observation perhaps for five or ten. 
 
46 
 
 years, if they remain so long continuously upon the field. Coming to the 
 "question of how the records would be kept, or rather how they would bfe 
 originally taken (because the matter of keeping them is a question for 
 consultation with one skilled in the keeping of statistical records), my 
 present ideas, and they will probably undergo great modification when the 
 actual work is once commenced, are somewhat as follows: that the man, 
 having presented himself for investigation, shall be allotted a card on 
 which should be inscribed first of all his identification number for the 
 purposes of the Bureau; secondly, the number of his union ticket. 1 
 understand that most members of a union have a definite number attached 
 to their ticket. So long as they remain members of the union, they carry 
 that number with them. Do I understand also that if they drop ofi and 
 become registered at a later time, that they get back that number? 
 Mr. WILLIS : No, not necessarily. 
 
 Dr. KESTEVEN: It would be very desirable that the same number 
 should be given them, because a man might go to another field and get 
 a fresh number. The identification number of the union should be such as 
 to assist us to prevent duplication of our records, and enable us to recognise 
 the man again, or to find him should we want him. Thirdly, the card 
 should bear the man's name, his age, his height, and his weight. Fourthly, 
 the occupational history taken with the most rigorous care. Fifthly, the 
 social history, having reference to such matters as athletic history, or 
 otherwise, his attitude towards drink, smoking, and general mode of life. 
 Sixthly, the family history with the idea of ascertaining the presence of any 
 tendency towards tuberculosis or any hereditary disease, such, for instance, 
 as cancer. His previous health must be inquired into with as much care 
 ns his occupational history. His clinical examination should begin with 
 the examination of the digestive system. It may be explained that for the 
 purposes of this investigation, it is absolutely essential that the presence of 
 complicating diseases must always be recognised if present and accounted 
 for in order to prevent the vitiation of one's statistical averages. Thus 
 in examining the digestive system one would either exclude or include and 
 take note of chronic dyspepsia, chronic constipation, and hemorrhoids; 
 these are all fairly common, and lower a man's capacity for work. Similarly" 
 the genito-urinary system must be examined in order to exclude Bright's 
 disease or other chronic conditions, or, if present, to take a note of them. 
 The examination of the heart and blood vascular system should include 
 not only the routine examination of pulse and size of heart, but sphygmo- 
 metric or blood pressure record, and sphygmographic record or pulse 
 tracing. Now, the examination of the respiratory system commencing- 
 with physical examination and measurements (physical examination 
 meaning the use of the stethescope and percussion in the routine medical 
 fashion) is necessary. One would then pass to the use of the Hutchison 
 spirometer reading of tidal, complemental and supplemental airs, and total 
 capacity at rest and after work, box spirometer readings of tidal, comple- 
 mental, and supplemental airs, and total capacity at rest and during work- 
 The combined ergometric and spirometric record wouuld show the work done, 
 the number of respirations, their average depth, and the total exchange of 
 air. The gas analysis would be of alveolar and expired air at rest and after 
 
4.7 
 
 •work. The record would also include tlie radiogram and tlie bacteriological 
 finding. To begin with, I think one would do well to have records from 100 
 men working in, say, iron foundries, 100 working as farmers, and 100 work- 
 ing as, say, storemen, in order to get the average conditions. 
 
 Dr. ARTHUE: I think that the original reference to this Board in con- 
 nection with this matter was to determine if this particular occupational 
 disease should be placed on the schedule of the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act. It is known that it already is embodied in Acts in one or two other 
 States, and for some reason or other it was omitted from the schedule of 
 the New South Wales Act, and there was a strong feeling that it would be 
 a proper thing to extend to those engaged in mining occupations the same 
 advantage that those engaged in other industries possess. I understood 
 that the Board were to determine simply whether it was the proper course 
 to recommend the Government to place this in the schedule, or to bring 
 the question of dealing with miners as a special class under some special 
 legislation. I have understood all the time that the question of pneu- 
 moconiosis was such a recognised condition that anyone working under 
 certain conditions was very liable to be affected, and that if one found men 
 who showed all the symptoms of it, that they should be entitled to certain, 
 compensation. If I would judge the wishes of those men who are engaged 
 in these occupations, I should think that they wish for a very speedy 
 decision indeed upon this question. The suggestions that have been made 
 by both the University Committee, by Dr. Harris, and by the last speaker. 
 Dr. Kesteven, it seems to me that it would lead to the postponement of any 
 decision upon this matter almost indefinitely. I also feel that a great deal 
 of the suggested procedures would really be unnecessary. Men go in to 
 the mines, or many of them, at any rate, with their eyes open to the fact 
 that they are running certain risks from the nature of the occupation. 
 They do so, and they are quite prepared to accept that. What they ask is 
 that if they are among the unfortunate ones who are affected, they shall 
 receive some compensation for them having undertaken that risk. They 
 want a more adequate compensation than they receive at the present time. 
 If you take the case of these unfortunate sewer miners who, I think, as far 
 as my experience goes, follow by far the most dangerous occupation that 
 any man can follow in this State, you have this position : Those unfortunate 
 men, although by recent legislation or by awards they have got better pay 
 and shorter hours, still, if they become incapacitated, as many of them do, 
 all they have to fall back upon is either the invalidity pension of 12s. 6d. 
 a week, or the Waterfall Sanitarium for advanced tubercular patients. The 
 men are still willing to take this risk as sewer miners, but their feeling is 
 that what they are justified in claiming is that if they do become in- 
 capacitated they should, at any rate, be provided for to a degree very different 
 to what they are at the present time. My impression is that it is pretty 
 much the same with miners all over Australia, especially those who, at the 
 present time or in the very near future, should be in a position to claim 
 this compensation for incapacity. With regard to Dr. Harris' suggestion 
 as to the elaborate fitting up of X-ray appliances, I presume at Broken 
 Hill, and especially in view of the last speaker's statement, which I agree 
 with — that the radiographic evidence is not of very high value ; it is of a 
 
48 
 
 certain value, but not a , very higli value— it seems to me Uiat it would 
 hardly be justifiable to incur the expense accompanied with the considerable 
 delay before the apparatus could be obtained,, in view of the results that 
 may accrue. I should think that it would be just as satisfactory and a 
 great deal cheaper if a number of men (it might be a couple of hundred) 
 were selit down to Adelaide. I have, no doubt that in Adelaide there is .a 
 inan who is a first-class expert in this particular branch of medicine, and 
 I assume that in Adelaide (I may be mistaken) either one of the medical 
 men there or one of the leading hospitals has an X-ray outfit which would 
 he adequate for this examination. I cannot see that this examination by 
 experts requires to be continuous. They might have an examination once 
 for a certain number of the men. At the same time, I really question 
 whether that is necessary, because it seems to me that previous examina- 
 tions, not only in this State, but in other parts of the world, have estab- 
 lished the causal connection between them, the men working underground in 
 certain geological formations, and these diseases. There is an absolute causal 
 connection between them, as I say has been established, and it must be left 
 to the medical men who are resident on the spot, to pronounce and give a 
 verdict upon the individual cases, as they will continue to present ihe con- 
 ditions as long as mining is carried on in any one district. It may be "that 
 there should be a court of appeal from the verdict of the medical men; but 
 the expense of having a continuous board of experts dealing, not only with 
 Broken Hill, but with every"other part of the State where mining is carried 
 on, and even in other industrial occupations where there is exposure to dust, 
 would be Very large — and there are many of them. I have only lately been 
 examining a large number of men engaged in the milling industry, where 
 they are exposed to organic dust, and in my opinion they show certain signs 
 and. symptoms which point to the fact that they are somewhat affected by 
 the inhalation of the flour and other substances with which they come into 
 contact and inhale during the course of the occupation they follow. These 
 men may be said to be exposed to injurious influences as a result of their 
 occupation. They also might claim — ^not, perhaps, with the same justifica- 
 tion or with the same degree of necessity — continuous examination by ex- 
 perts, as the Broken Hill miners. It seems to me that one does not know 
 where this thing would end, if there is to be a scientific investigation of this 
 kind being carried on from year to year continuously. I could quite under- 
 stand, with regard to some occupation which is not on the schedule of the 
 Act or for which previously a claim had never been made that it was an 
 injurious occupation, preliminary examination by experts would be neces- 
 sary. I admit it would be, in a case of that kind. We might find some new 
 occupation spring up in which entirely new substances would be used, and 
 the men might then come forward and claim that the work they are 
 engaged upon which was previously looked upon as innocuous was having a 
 tad effect upon their health, and their lungs were becoming affected; and it 
 might be very necessary to investigate as to the truth or otherwise of their 
 claim. But thsre are many occupations as to -which it has been decided, 
 years and years ago, that they were injurious. It seems to me like hitting 
 the nail on the head after it has been driven home, to start elaborate inves- 
 tigations and carry them along with competent doctors, in order to find 
 
49 
 
 out wliat one finds in any text-book on occupational diseases, and which 
 have been in existence for the last forty or fifty years. I am inclined really 
 to tiiink it is a question, here, of who is to find the money to pay for these 
 men who are incapacitated, and where the burden is to lie? That is, whether 
 it is to lie upon the employers entirely, or partly by contribution to a fund, 
 or whether the. Government is to find the money, or part of it, which is, 
 I believe, what they do in Queensland and other parts. I have no connec- 
 tion at all with the miners, although I have given expert evidence; but I 
 should think their chief desire at the present time is to get settled at the 
 earliest possible moment the question of how they are to be dealt with. 
 They assume that they are to be examined thoroughly, and that they are 
 going to get compensation, and the question is whether it shall be done by 
 placing them upon the schedule of the Act, and then finding out where the 
 money is to come from, or whether there will be a recommendation to the 
 Government to pass a special Act dealing only with men engaged in the 
 mining industry. 
 
 Mr. WILLIS: I would like to call attention to one point Dr. Arthur 
 referred to. We certainly do not understand that this is an inquiry for the 
 purposes of showing whether or not miners' phthisis is to be included in the 
 Act, or whether it is not. We take it that we are within the schedule, and 
 if that is so why should we waste any time on the matter in that respect? 
 We should regard the work of the Board as being directed towards helping 
 them to get what they are entitled to, now. We think there is no doubt, on 
 the established facts, that compensation should be paid for phthisis; but if 
 it is just baldly stated that phthisis will be compensated for, then there are 
 many other pulmonary diseases and ills which are consequent upon the 
 work of the miners, which must come into consideration. You might com- 
 pensate in one instance, for phthisis, and not compensate in ninety-nino 
 other cases. We think that miners' phthisis should be scheduled at once, 
 without any question. The whole of the medical evidence supports that 
 contention, and it has also been included in other parts of the world. I 
 do not think that the Board should waste five minutes over this matter, 
 but there will be a difference afterwards about the complaints which we 
 say should also be covered.' There should, however, be no hesitation in say- 
 ing that phthisis should be paid compensation for. I hope it is not the 
 intention of the Board to prolong the matter for a period of twelve or 
 eighteen months, in order to decide whether or not phthisis is to be in- 
 cluded, because I am sure that would only exasperate the men and be an 
 insult to their intelligence, in view of all of the information already avail- 
 able concerning the disease. I would like to have that made quite clear, 
 because I do not think we would be prepared to go on with the inquiry if it 
 were merely intended to decide that point. 
 
 Mr. O'EEILLT: There is another thing I might refer to, and that is 
 lead-poisoning, and the dealing' with it hy this Board, together with the 
 inquiry into miners' phthisis ; because so far as the Broken Hill miners are 
 concerned, the number of men working there who suffer from leading is just 
 as great as those suffering from phthisis. I would suggest to the Board, on 
 behalf of the miners of Broken Hill, that as well as having a number of 
 persons examined as to the lungs by X-ray appliances in order to state the. 
 53382— C 
 
60 
 
 extent to wliicli the disease of phthisis exists, that there should also, be, a 
 portion of the men examined to discover those which are suffering from the 
 accompanying diseases and lead-poisoning. The examination could be done 
 when the man was being examined for dust; he could be examined either 
 immediately before, or afterwards, by the specialist.'^ While lead-poisoning 
 is in the schedule to the Act, the matter of getting miners' phthisis and 
 leading and kindred occupational diseases within the four comers of the 
 Compensation Act is only, to our minds, a matter of secondary importance 
 to the influence that this Commission wiU have upon the legislation of the 
 future for the prevention of the whole of these diseases. We ask, on the 
 evidence given by Dr. Arthur and our other friend, that the Board should 
 do everything possible. I understand thoroughly the conditions of the men 
 at Broken Hill, and we ask the Board to do everything that is possihleto be 
 done, as far as its actual scientific ability is concerned. We ask for a most 
 searching inquiry into the condition of these men, and, if the Board' estab- 
 lishes that miners' phthisis does exist, and leading also, that' it should go on 
 v^ith the examination of the whole of these men and state just to what extent 
 these diseases do exist at Broken Hill. We contend that the proper place 
 for these men to be examined is while they are at work, under ordinary 
 conditions. In the matter of leading, the Broken HiU miners suffer con- 
 siderably more than they do in any other portion of the State of New South 
 Wales from kidney troubles, and that brings us to the point where an 
 examination of these men, who suffer in this way, should be subjected to a 
 further examination, after the medical examination is finished. I do not 
 concur in that. The matter of examination is of the utmost importance in 
 Broken Hill, because we contend it is a question of, what stage is a man 
 going to be in with phthisis, or other disease, when he receives compensa- 
 tion? Unlike miners anywhere else, we are called upon as unionists to 
 allow men to be examined, and if a certificate is wanted from every man 
 before he is allowed to work in the industry, therefore- we ask the Board to 
 have the men examined every six or twelve months to show whether or not 
 he is contracting one of the diseases, and, if so, he should be taken out of 
 the mine before he becomes a complete wreck. That is to say, he should 
 receive compensation in the initial stages of each of these diseases, so as to 
 prevent his health from entirely breaking down. I ask the Board to sit as 
 soon as it possibly can, at Broken Hill, and to do all it possibly can to make 
 the investigation as scientific as it can be made, and to examine the whole 
 of the men, because, if they are in the condition in which we believe them 
 to be, we contend the extent to which the trouble really exists should be 
 made known to the public. I ask that firstly, and principally, because it 
 will influence future legislation in the way of prevention of the diseases, 
 because our purpose in attending the inquiry would be made impossible if 
 the wrecks of the industi-ywere to be compensated in such a trivial way as 
 they are under the present Act. We contend that the conditions which at 
 present exist, can not be allowed to go on. The companies agreed that this 
 inquiry should take place; the men and the employers are asking for a most 
 searching inquiry, and as far as I can judge there is not a great deal of 
 difference between both sides as to the placing of this disease under the Act 
 even now. If is not only the point of a man losing his occupation, but we 
 
51 
 
 contead it is a matter of national importance, and, if it were left as it is, it 
 would result in making the industry carry the burden of all the wrecks 
 which it creates. We want the Board to have additional scope in their 
 inquiries ; that one portion should be expert in testing men as far as dusting 
 and respiratory diseases along the lines suggested by Dr. Harris is con- 
 cerned; and the other portion should be expert in dealing with lead-poison- 
 ing, because, according to Dr. Birka, of Broken Hill, lead-poisoning is the 
 most insidious disease known. To give you an instance, one man was first 
 treated for lead; afterwards he went into the hospital for liver trouble, and 
 finally, when he died, the doctor gave a certificate of death from heart 
 failure; yet the certificate did not prove that he had been leaded up to the 
 time of his death. There is Bright's disease and other illnesses which are 
 incidental to the community generally, and which are greatly aggravated 
 in Bi:oken Hill. We ask the Board to go into all these matters, in view of 
 their importance, in the same way as they go into the question of dusting. 
 
 Dr. KESTEVEN: I would like, your Honor, to give the Board 'my 
 estimate as to what staff I think would be necessary to carry out this 
 scientific work. As I understand it, the staff should be adequate to carry 
 out a thoroughly scientific inv^tigation of the various diseases to which 
 these workers are liable, inasmuch as unless one can recognise — to take a 
 concrete example, the case of a man who has Bright's disease and silicosis — 
 the presence ,of both of these diseases and the extent to which they have 
 progressed, it would be impossible to take out the factor of impaired capacity 
 due to either. The inclusion of such a complicated case amongst those due 
 to silicosis alone, would interfere materially with the value of one's statistical 
 averages. I take it, therefore, it would be imposisible to investigate silicosis 
 without, at the same time, investigating the condition of pliimbism and 
 other diseases to which these workers are liable. I believe that the following 
 staff, at least, is required: — Two medical officers, a scientific assistant to 
 carry out gas analyses and the calibrations of the instruments used, a 
 mechanical expert to make and keep in repair the instruments, two 
 laboratory assistants, a recorder with statistical experience. This man is 
 absolutely essential, because, although we medical men may have ideas of our 
 own of statistics, yet very few of us possess the knowledge of how it 
 should be done. Finally, a secretary would be necessary. I have also 
 omitted from the list, a pathologist, who would also be essential; He would 
 probably be a third medical man. 
 
 Mr. ROTJTLEY: Do you include any person for testing the dust in the 
 mines ? 
 
 Dr. KESTEVEN: No, I took it that that should be a different depart- 
 ment. I did not really overlook it. Of course, it is most essential that the 
 amovint of dust present should be recorded and made known to the technical 
 committee. I understand that the amount of dust in various parts of the 
 mine are recorded— for instance, I believe in what they call a "rise" is 
 liable to be greater than in other portions, owing to the difficulties of ventila- 
 tion. Obviously, any man working in 1 per cent, of duet is not going to 
 get. dusted so fast as a man working in 2 per cent, of dust, these figures being 
 merely taken for comparative purposes. So that the actual amount of dust 
 
52 
 
 a man is working in is essential to be known, or the investigation beeome3 
 valueless as it would fail to indicate to us the real rate at which the diseasa 
 develops under constant conditions. 
 
 Mr. EOUTLEY: You do not make provision for that? 
 
 Dr. KESTEVEN: No, because I understand that in some of the mines, 
 at least, all these records are kept; if they are not so kept, they should be. 
 Provision for that should be made. 
 
 Mr. BUCKLAND : If I understand the reference correctly, it means the 
 Board would have to arrive at the extent to which phthisis exists in metal- 
 liferous mines throughout New South Wales. If that is so, the only way 
 in which we can arrive at that conclusion is to make a medical examination 
 in some form. _ . 
 
 PEESIDENT: May I refer you to the extension clause of the inquiry? 
 It states that quarrymen, stonemasons, and other employees, to start with; 
 then it says : 
 
 What relief, additional or alternative to the inclusion in the schedule 
 of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1916, should be provided in re- 
 spect of the incidence of the disease upon any of the individual classes 
 mentioned in this series of questions ? 
 Mr. BUCKLAND : Taking this in conjunction with the original reference, 
 it would mean that, to arrive at the extent of the disease, you would need 
 some medical evidence. In New South Wales, as far as miners and the 
 other workers are concerned, there are some 20,000 of them. You could 
 safely say 10,000. If the whole of these men have to be examined, and can 
 only be examined at the rate specified by the doctors who gave evidence here, 
 ft will take something like five or six years to complete; and you would have 
 to wait something like that time before bringing in a recommendation of 
 whether or not they should be included in the schedule of the Act. I am afraid 
 that would be an impossible position. It would appear to me to be sufficient 
 if a number of the miners in the different centres could be examined, and 
 that a fair conclusion as to the extent of the disease could be arrived at 
 from the examinations so made. Then the Board could bring in its recom- 
 mendation as to whether or not the disease should be included in the 
 schedule. That would mean only a little time, and I take it that this is a 
 matter which needs urgency. It should not be dragged out for a period of 
 anything from two to five years. If this scientific investigatoin is going to 
 be carried out along the lines suggested, it is going to take fully the time 
 I mention. My opinion is that a number of the miners should be examined, 
 and then you could get far enough into the matter to have a fair idea as to 
 the number of men affected by the disease. As far as Broken Hill is con- 
 cerned, the miners' phthisis would then be included if the recommendation 
 of the Board were to that effect. Take lead-poisoning and other diseases 
 incidental to miners' phthisis, an examination could be made as far as 
 Broken Hill is concerned, and the thoroughly scientific examination could 
 then be gone on with. I quite agree with that. If it is going to be taken 
 in conjunction with miners' phthisis, it will mean the matter will be hung 
 up for such a long time that it will practically be of no value to us. I con- 
 tend that in this matter of examination, only a certain number of the miners 
 
53 
 
 shoTild be taken for examination, and the recommendation of the Board 
 could then be made; then the more thoroughly scientific examination could 
 follow. Otherwise, the position is going to be made impossible. 
 
 Dr. STOKES : Although I am not personally interested, I would like to 
 express my views, if I may, upon miners' phthisis, pneumoconiosis, and 
 ankylostomiasis, and also the cost of same. In the first place, I think 
 everyone will agree that unless the examination is done thoroughly, it will 
 be absolutely a waste of time and money. It must be done by men who 
 are competent to do it. It is of no use putting juniors, and boys who have 
 just passed through the University, to deal with a problem of this sort. In 
 the second place, there has not been, anywhere in Australia, a deep review 
 of the situation as far as industrial diseases of this class go. There have 
 been medical reports, and individual groups of men examined here and 
 there ; but there has been no broad view of the whole situation, and that is, 
 I take it, what we want at the present time. We want to be able to say 
 definitely what men in this big group of mines, or industries, have been 
 examined, and that the results are so-and-so. Then we will have some 
 definite data to go upon. Apparently at present both sides are at a loss 
 as to what to do in the matter. One side says the men have this disease, 
 and the other side says they have not. The only way to decide it is to make 
 a complete examination of all of the men employed in these occupations. 
 If, for any reason, it is not practicable to examine every man, then a quota 
 of the men should be examined, at least not less than 25 per cent.; and 
 the selection of the quota should not be left to the wishes of the individual 
 men, or to the union, or to the employers. Every man should submit his 
 name, as willing to be examined, and then the selection of the quota should 
 be made by ballot. In that way you will have 25 per cent, of the men 
 examined, and by the law of chance the probabilities are that with that 25 per 
 cent., if the number runs into a few thousands, it should enable a very 
 representative view to be made of the whole situation. Now, as to the extent 
 of the examination. The letter refers to miners' phthisis, lead-poisoning, 
 and ankylostomiasis. I consider that when you have a man examined, you 
 should make a complete record of his condition — as to whether he has 
 phthisis or not, or lung trouble, lead-poisoning, kidney disease, and so on. 
 TLerefoie, there is involved a complete clinical examination. I do not pro- 
 pose to go into all the details Dr. Kesteven put before you, and do not Icnow 
 if it is necessary in this connection. As to the dust subject, it should be 
 left to the doctor to examine; but I would like to point out that such an 
 examination is not an easy one ; it is not one which can be rushed through, 
 and it is one which naturally takes up a good deal of time. For instance, to 
 show you something of the difiiculties : in examining for lead-poisoning there 
 is one test which is infallible — the analysis of urine for lead. If you find 
 lead, then you do not need to go much further ; if you do not find it, then 
 the man at that time is not suffering from leading. You may have to go 
 further to see if he is suffering from any of the sequelae of it. Coming 
 now to the question of ankylostomiasis, or hook-work, the examination 
 is a difficult one. It means the excreta of every man has to be examined, 
 and perhaps more than once. The details of that examination must be 
 
54 
 
 such, and also the examination of the urine, that ycfa are acting as policeman 
 over the man himself. Tou will see it is a complicated and difScult position, 
 and one which will take time. I do not know if the miners are prepared 
 to submit to an examination of that class; but I wish to show the Board 
 the difficulties involved in this examination. I might also mention that 
 the X-ray examination is essential. The X-ray and clinical examinations 
 should be made, one as a supplement or complement to the other. Dr. 
 Harris points out that they could put fifty cases through per day by the 
 X-rays. To examine fifty men in a day would require the services, accord' 
 ing to my estimate, of three physicians. The number would work out 
 at 300 per week, or 1,200 per month. If it were possible that 25 per cent, 
 of the men at Broken Hill should be examined — ^there are, I understand^ 
 about 7,000 of them— it would mean about 2,000 men would require to 
 be examined, and two months would be the time necessary to do them. The 
 staff, I estimate, would be three physiciuns, three assistant medical officers, 
 one radiographer, three assistants, and three clerks. That would mean a 
 staff of thirteen, and the three medical officers would be men who were 
 trained in the examination of chemical analyses, and so on. The expense 
 of that is hard to put down exactly, because I do not know where yeu 
 would get medical men, or what you would' get them for, just now ; but I 
 am certain that you cannot get men of the grade you should have here) 
 under about 3 guineas per day. You could get a boy just through the 
 University for less, but that would merely be a waste of money. This, esti- 
 mate would be subject to revision, but I estimate that the examination 
 would cost £40 per day. I ha-ve allowed in that for the expense of materiali 
 X-ray material is fairly high, and it costs 2s. 6d. for each plate, and there 
 may be two for one man — also chemicals, &c. I have also allowed for 
 analytical work. I estimate it would cost about £40 per da:y for doing fifty 
 men. Possibly that would also cover the rent of buildings and so on, 
 although I have not put it down in detail. The £40 for fifty men per day, 
 taking it as a very outside estimate, would .give us an examination cost of 
 just about £1 per day per man. That is a rough estimate only, so that the 
 Board will have something to guide it when there are large numbers of 
 men, of course, who have to be dealt with. 
 
 Mr. WIXLINGTON: Would that include instruments? 
 
 Dr. STOKES : No ; it is just for wages, salaries, travelling expenses, &c. 
 
 PEESIDEN'T: And the foundation in Broken Hill of the institution 
 would it caver that ? 
 
 Dr. STOKES : Yes, I think the £40 per day would cover it. I think £1 
 per day per man would cover the expenses of the complete examination. 
 
 Mr. WIXLINGTGN : That would be indlusive, or exclusive, of travelling 
 expenses ? 
 
 Dr. STOKES : Yes, it would probably cover those. 
 PKESIDENT: It does not include the scientists to examine the men. 
 Dr. STOKES : No, because the reference is only as to the examination 
 ©f the men. Possibly my figure might be a little bit high, but I put it 
 
5& 
 
 forward as one whieli might reasonably cover the expenditure likely to be 
 involved in this examination. 
 
 Mr. JiLTTG : following upon the remarks of Dr. Arthur as to the X-ray 
 apparatus, I would advise the Board that the companies have already such 
 an apparatus on order for the Broken HiU Hospital, h^t I do not know 
 whether it will be avail^l© in time for the Commission. In mentioning 
 the figure of 50 per day, I may say that when stating my opinion 
 previously, that the examination would take about twelve months to com- 
 plete, I of course intjlude iit that the work of recording the history of each 
 man. 1 am not sure whether Dr. Stokes took into consideration the 
 amount of work involved in tracing, each -man's life and historical record, 
 which is most essential for the. Board, to determine whether the industry in 
 question is responsible for these occupational diseases. I am, not sure if we 
 are not encroaching on ground which really is not in our domain in being 
 technical, on the medical side at least, and I do not know the value which 
 medical men put on their services, hut J would urge the Board to recommend 
 that the Government should appoint men of only the highest calibre. You 
 must have good men,. and pay them well. To say that a man is to receive 
 £700 a year, or £200 a year, is.nothing; when you know. that a good man is 
 available, it does not matter if you pay him £8,000 for the work ; he is worth 
 it, if he has the necessary qualifLcatrons. I do not think it behoves the Board to 
 be at all ultra-economical in regaxd to this question. Personally, I should 
 think that an examination of this kind is likely to cost somewhere in the 
 neighbourhood of £15,000 or £20,000 j and it may take a longer time than 
 twelve months. That is, to thorouighly exhaust the whole of the technical 
 position affecting the matter. 
 
 M,r. VERNON : I understood that this Board was to go into the matter 
 of suffering on the part of the workers, from any complaint brought about 
 by industrial work. It seems to me the, whole thing is centred on one place 
 only, and that .is Broken Hill, ill resp.ect of this examination. Is that 
 correct I 
 
 PRESIDENT : No. Nothing of the kind has been determined, and the 
 Board cannot overlook- the workmen in this relation, wherever they may 
 be employed throughout New South Wales; and a,mong those expressly 
 mentioned are quarrymen, stonemasons, and other employees working in 
 stone. 
 
 Mr. VERNON : There are men following the calling of chemical workers, 
 and they are just as much subject to disease as the workers in other 
 callings. But the whole, question here has been regarding -doctors, and the 
 examinations, and the time they will take. The sooner they start, the 
 sooner will the work be done; they do not require to examine thousands 
 of men .to find out the urgency of the whole affair, because the young, men 
 and the old men are .different altogether, in one way.* The old man has 
 bis past experience, and the young man has yet to learm The young man 
 is the man these complaints catch hold of, much more, so than the old man. 
 I. want to understand the position in.reference to men employed, in industries 
 
56 
 
 ill the city, who are just as liable to illness as those in other places. Dr. 
 Stokes says the r-:edical men will charge £3 3s. I do not know where you 
 will get one for that price; they generally want 60 guineas. If you want 
 a high-class doctor for an operation, and they can do three or four in a 
 day, they want 30 or 40 guineas each time; and you will not get them to 
 travel to Broken Hill and back again for £3 3s. The sooner the Board gets 
 to work and fixes things up, the better it will be for everyone. Instead 
 of taking years to do the work, it should only take weeks. 
 
 PRESIDENT: I do not know whether any practical suggestions which 
 may arise at this stage 
 
 Dr. STOKES : In the figures I gave the Board, I included three clerks 
 as sufficient to do the work. The compilation of the records should go on 
 as the work is done. 
 
 PEESIDENT : You have no doubt directed the minds of the Board to 
 many important matters for consideration, and the various ways of looking 
 at the problem. What occurs to me as of most importance from the prac- 
 tical point of view, is to get the thing started upon such a basis that it can 
 be properly extended. However, I am not in a position to express the views 
 of the Board on that matter. It wiU be a subject for further consideration 
 by the Board in the light of all that has been said here, for the purposes of 
 making a positive suggestion to the Minister, as to what, in the opinion 
 of the Board, should be done in this connection, as to establishing the 
 council and advising them to the best of its ability what that cost would be. 
 Perhaps it is a somewhat difficult task, but we must approach and handle 
 it with such ability as we possess, and with as much expedition as possible 
 under the circumstances. I am very much obliged to you for your attend- 
 ance. T presume that we can be advised more directly of any matters which 
 have been discussed ? Would any of those gentlemen who have attended here 
 to-day object to giving us their opinions in writing, if we desired to have 
 them. We shall probably desire to communicate with the •gentlemen who 
 have attended, and ask for positive opinions on the points as they aris& 
 
 Mr. HOLME: I would suggest that, if we could, we should get some 
 information as to the accommodation available for the Technical Com- 
 mittee at Broken Hill; by doing so, we shall be helped in making recom- 
 mendations to the Government as to the expense. Some office accom- 
 modation, for instance, will be necessary. Whether it is possible to get this 
 accommodation readily at iBroken Hill, the members of the Board do not 
 know. If there is no such accommodation to be readily obtained, it may be 
 necessary for the Government to rely upon receiving some special assistance 
 at the hands of property-owners, or other persons who have control of office 
 and other accommodation at Broken Hill. 
 
 Mr. O'EEILLY: I should say there would be very little trouble in getting 
 accommodation there. To suggest particular places at the present nioment 
 would be impossible. The Town Hall is an immense building, and is 
 fitted up with offices; and there is the Protestant Hall, and other places 
 suitable for tlie work. It would be a matter for the Board to write to the 
 
57 
 
 police, or aome one else, stating what accommodation is required, and 
 requesting them to make inquiry. There is also a good deal of accommoda- 
 tion at the Trades Hall. 
 
 Mr. HOLME: Would the municipal buildings accommodate the staff- 
 say a staff of half a dozen? 
 
 Mr. O'EEILLT: Yes, I should say so. The Eoyal Commission of 1914 
 conducted its work at the Town Hall. 
 
 Mr. HOLME : Would the Mayor or the Town Clerk be able to teU us if a 
 suite of offices was available? 
 
 Mr. O'EEILLT: Yes, or the Sergeant of Police could soon find out the 
 accommodation available. I should think you would have no difficulty at 
 all in securing it, at reasonable cost. ' 
 
 (At 12.30 p.m. the Board adjourned sine die.) 
 
 Sjdnev : WiilVaiii AprlPL^atP <^iiHii'lt. OoveriimCTit Printor- — 1919, 
 
 (13382— D 
 

 
 DATE DUE 
 
 
 rMftv+ 
 
 
 »y 1 iSLjy 
 
 
 iVIriT *" 
 
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 J-Inr-ri'-^ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 GAYLORD 
 
 
 
 PRINTED ]N U.S.A. 
 
 Cornell University Library 
 HD7269.M6N5 1919a 
 
 Second interim report of the New South W 
 
 3 1924 002 409 526