1 iS/i i^d i' ::M^m 4 SI A '^'Cs'<' is?;;ii'?Si;^;! MS 1 CORNELL UNIVERSITY LIBRARY GIFT OF C, 'f. Wason JO 226 ?853Ia2"'""""^ '-'""^ "'!?, Cornell University Library The original of this book is in the Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924023168846 B R I T I S H PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS GOVERHMENT OF IHDIAN TERRITORIES 1852 - 1853 CLEVELAND 19 15 CONTENTS Select Committea on the Government of Indism Territories: Evidence of Colonel Robert Alexander, December 3, 1852 *^ Select Committee on the Government of Indian Territories: / Appendix D. Select Committee on the Government of Indian Territories: Evidence of James C. Melvill and Captain Frederick T. Powell, March 1, 1853 '^ Select Committee on the Government of Indiam Territories: Evidence of Mr. Ardaseer Cvirsetje© and Robert W. Crawford, March 3, 1853 Select Committee on the Government of Indian Territories: Evidence of Rear-Admiral Sir Thomas Herbert and General the Right Honourable Henry V. Hardinge, March 8, 1853 Select Committee on the Government of Indian Territories: v Appendix, A 3.0,*^ Select Committee on Indian Territories, 1852-1853 5. {Private and Confidential.) Select Committee on the Government of Indian Territories. EVIDENCE OF Colonel Robert Alexander - - - - - p. 109 3d December 1852. [Great inconvenience having arisen from the Publication of Minutes of Evidence taken before Committees, and of Papers, &c. laid before them, it is particularly requested, that Peers receiving such Minutes and Papers will be careful that they are confined to the object for which they are printed, the special use of the Lords appointed on such Committees.] (20. 5 ) C 109 ) Die Veneris, 3° Decembris 1852. LORDS PRESENT: Lord Privy Seal, Marquess of Tweeddale. Earl of Albemarle. Earl Granville, Viscount Canning. Lord Elphinstone. Lord Wodehouse. Lord Colchester. Lord ASHBURTON. Lord MoNTEAGLE of Brandon. THE LORD PRIVY SEAL in the Chair. Evidence on the Government of Indian Teriitories. COLONEL ROBERT ALEXANDER is again called in, and further examined „ ^ Colonel as follows : ^°^"^ Alexrutde,: 1082. Marquess of Tweeddale.] YOUwere asked one or two questions yesterday upon foreign service ; the first question that was put to you was, what was the feeling of the Native troops as regards foreign service : when a regiment receives an order to hold itself in readiness for foreign service, how do you, as Adjutant- general, convey that order to the regiment ? In the case of an order coming for a regiment to prepare for foreign service, the Adjutant-general has in his office the form of a letter, the draft of which was originally called for by the Supreme Government, and it was authoritatively fixed that that letter should he the one addressed to all Native regiments ordered on foreign service; it commences by directing that the Commanding Officer of the regiment shall give every Native officer and non-commissioned officer and Sepoy his option whether he will go on that service or not ; and should he have any objection, on account of caste, or for any of the other reasons specified, he is allowed to remain behind ; the letter then goes on to state particularly everything which the Sepoys are entitled to in the way of rations on board ship and on shore, batta, pension, and every privilege granted to them on foreign service ; the contents of the letter are translated, and communicated to every man in the regiment, 1083. Lord Elphinstone.] "What is the date of the order to which you refer ? I cannot fix the date exactly, but it was sometime in the year 1845, or in the year 1846. 1084. Marquess of Tweeddale.'] That refers to the Sepoys ? Yes, to the Native officers and Sepoys ; to every Native in the regiment. 1085. After the regiment has received that order, what do you call upon the Commanding Officer of the regiment to do ? All the orders are stated in that letter ; the officers commanding the companies have to prepare the family certificates of the men, and the usual preparations are made for embarkation and service. 1086. Will you explain to the Committee the meaning of the expression " family certificates r" Every officer, soldier and Sepoy in the army, when it is going upon foreign service, is allowed to assign two-thirds of his pay for the support of his family during his absence ; it is the same when they take the field in India on active service against an enemy. (20. 5.) E E 2 1087. Has 3d Dec. 1852. 110 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel 1087. Has not great excitement occasionally occurred in the Madras army RobeH Alexander, arising out of the civil authorities making a mistake in the allowances to which , -Q J, troops ordered on foreign service were entitled ? .— !!L!-ll When the 47th Regiment of Native Infantry embarked for foreign service, they were landed at Bombay, and, according to the rule laid down by Sir Thomas Munro, those men were entitled to the privileges of foreign service while the regiment remained at Bombay, but the authorities there wished to put them upon garrison allowances, which created great excitement. There was another instance of a great mistake being made ; when the 6th Light Cavalry were ordered up to Saugur, their old rate of batta was guaranteed to them under the authority of Government by the Commander-in-Chief; but the Pay Department stopped the batta, and that also caused a very great excitement in that regiment, i 1088. Lord Elphimtone.] Was it not the fact that those privileges were not stopped by the civil authorities, but by military authorities ? I am speaking now of the civil staff authorities ; for in India, the civiHans, in contradistinction to military men, have nothing whatever to do with such ques- tions, unless in their capacity of members of the Government. Those that I have mentioned v\ ere two instances, but I consider that, practically, unnecessary difficulties are often thrown in the way of officers and men readily obtaining that which is due to them, in consequence of a want of simplicity in the working of the Pay and Audit Department. 1089. Chairman.] Do you consider that to be a military department? It is the civil staff of the army. Lord WiUiam Bentinck clearly defined what was the military and what the civil staff of the army, and the Pay and Audit Department is considered to be part of the civiL staff. 1090. Are the officers of that staff civilians ? No, they are all military men ; but they are ineligible while on the civil staff to exercise military command. 1091. Lord Ashburton.] Both in the cases of the 47th Native Infantry and the 6th Light Cavalry did not mutinies ensue ? To the best of my recollection, I should hardly say that in the 47th Native Infantry mutiny ensued, but there was great excitement ; there was serious mutinous conduct in the 6th Light Cavalry. 1092. In each case was it not absolutely necessary to punish the mutineers 1 I was not present at army head quarters on either occasion ; and I do not now remember so particularly the circumstances of the 47th Native Infantry; I remember that in the case of the 6th Light Cavalry it was necessary to punish the mutineers. 1093. In both instances was not faith broken with the Sepoys ? Faith was broken with the 6th Light Cavalry ; and, according to the interpre- tation established by Sir Thomas Munro, when Governor of Madras, of what constitutes foreign service, it was also broken with the 47th Native Infantry. 1094. Was there not an implied engagement given to the 47th Native Infantry, that they should have a certain batta, which batta was afterwards withdrawn ? Not having issued the orders myself, I cannot speak with perfect accuracy ; I can only express my behef ; my belief is, that they received the usual orders for embarkation for foreign service, and that under those orders the men con- sidered that, haying once embarked, they were entitled to their batta and the privileges of foreign service until their return from the service for which they embarked. Whether they were delayed on the way for the purposes of the Government, either at Bombay or elsewhere, the Sepoys would have considered that the Government was pledged to give them their allowances until their return within the Madras territory. 1095. Had they not, in consequence of this implied engagement on the part of the Government, assigned a portion of their pay to their families r Certainly. 1096. And that pay so assigned they could not receive? No; its payment was immediately stopped from them, to be given '^to their families. 1097. And ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. HI 1097. And their inducement to volunteer upon that service, was the assurance F"f/'"^^ j that they should leave their families in a state of comfort at home ? ^ Certainly. One great inducement for the troops to volunteer for foreign 3d Dec. 1852. service upon all occasions, is the provision made for their families during their — .absence. 1098. Chairman.} Are the majority of the men married ? Yes, most of them in our service are married ; generally speaking you may say the Madras Sepoy is a married man. 1099. Lord Colchester.'] Does this power of allotting a portion of their pay to their families prevail in the other two Presidencies ? I cannot say positively. I do not think that it has hitherto existed in Bengal in the same manner as with us, and I am not sure whether it exists so fully in Bombay. I believe it will be found that the first instance of Bengal troops enlisting for active service against an enemy, was when a battalion of volunteers was raised at Barrackpore, and high inducements held out for the Native officers and men to proceed to China. The Bombay troops have, 1 believe, readily embarked whenever required ; they have served with great distinction at the Mauritius, in the Persian Gulf, and elsewhere, but have not been so much accustomed to foreign service as the Madras army, which, so far back as the year 1756, accompanied Lord Clive on foreign service to Bengal : in the year 1792, 2,000 men volunteered to go with Colonel Draper's expedition tp Manilla ; in 1794 more men volunteered for service to Amboyna than were required : the Madras Sepoys have since served in the Eastern Seas, in Ceylon, at the Mauri- tius, in Birmah, Aden, Scinde, and China ; and so long as their allowances and privileges are secure to them, you have an army ready to go anywhere that the State may require their services. 1100. Chairman.] Has that faith been shaken ? Yes, it has ; and my impression is, that the Sepoy character in that respect has greatly altered in the last 20 years. 1101. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Were there not other cases of excitement or mutinous conduct arising from the same cause ; was there not a case at Hyderabad ? That was also a case of great excitement ; the 4th Cavalry were very insubor- dinate, and their conduct mutinous, in consequence of the batta being taken from them, though it had been for years before mentioned in the general orders that such a reduction was to be made. The Sepoys are no readers of general orders; they place implicit faith in the Government, and they look very much to that which is of great importance to them, the " mamoul," which may be translated the custom or traditions of the service. 1102. Was not there some excitement with the 41st Regiment ? There was an excitement, when they were embarking for China, about pen- sions to heirs and wound pensions having been reduced. 1103. Lord Elphinstone.] Are those pensions to the heirs of Sepoys disabled or killed on foreign service ? Yes, for Sepoys disabled, and to the heirs of those that are killed. New pensions were introduced, by which a man under 15 years' service, who had been disabled for further service, and thus thrown destitute upon the world after eight or ten years' service, would, according to the scale then established, have received a pension of 1 rupee and 4 annas, or about 25. 6d. a month. 1104. Chairman.] What was the pension before ? Under the old system, the pension was 3 rupees 8 annas for every man dis- abled on foreign service ; he now receives, insteaid of that, 4 rupees a month. The order says, " A Sepoy who shall not have served 15 years, and have received such an injury as is equal to loss of limb, and is thereby disabled from follow- ing his profession as a soldier, shall receive 4 rupees a month." 1 105. Marquess of Tiveeddak.] What book is that to v/hich you are referring ? The " Pay and Audit Regulations of the Madras Army." 1106. Lord Monteagle of Brandon.] In reference to the cases which you have been describing, in which there has been somewhat of a loss of confidence by (20- 5.) F F the 1 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel the changes that have been made, do you think that the same result would be Rohert Alexa nder, produced upon the Indian army if changes of a similar kind were merely pro- 3d Dec iS/;* spective with reference to persons entering the service hereafter, and if all exist- ' ' ing rights were carefully maintained ? It requires some little knowledge of the Sepoy character to understand the effect produced upon them ; all those changes were prospective, and were pub- lished in general orders ; but the Sepoy does not care much about those orders in the Pay Department at the time they are so issued. When a Sepoy is enlisted, he has all the terms of the service put into his hands. But it is when reduc- tions come practically upon the men that they feel them, and then it is that they argue that they are contrary to the old custom, and to their detriment. The foreign service in China was a most trying service to ignorant Sepoys like those of Southern India, who had never heard of such a place as China, except, per- haps, in some wild legend. It separated them from their families to go a long voyage, they knew not whither. Then they had to consider the circumstances and anxieties of their families around them, the probability of their return, the possible nature of the service, and that they might come back disabled, and be turned adrift in the world with 1 rupee 4> annas a month to maintain their fami- lies when their bodies should be crippled. 1107. Is it your belief, that though there was a formal announcement made to the Sepoys of the alteration that had been effected by authority, their convic- tion was founded upon the ancient custom rather than upon the announcement formally made to them ? Yes, I think so. I doubt whether the Sepoys ever thought much about the matter till the circumstances pressed upon them. 1108. Lord Elphinstone.] Was not the case of the men who were drowned in the " Golconda," on her passage to China, the first instance to which the new rates of pension applied ? That was the first time the alteration was felt by the Sepoys ; the families of those men realized what the effect of the new system was. 1109. The families of those men who were drowned happened to be living in the same town, viz. Berhampore, where the regiments about to embark for China were quartered ? I think most of them were there at the time, 1110. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Are any new changes in regard to pensions or other regulations translated into the book of the Company, and read to the Sepoys on parade ? They are entered into the book of the Company, translated, and read ; and besides that, orders of importance are translated into Hindostauee, Tamil and Teloogoo, and hung up in their barracks. 1111. What is the effect of reading those changes? I do not think it has much effect upon the minds of the Sepoys ; some of them may recollect them. In the case of the batta that was stopped in 1841, the order had been issued four years before, viz. in 1837, but never carried into effect. The Sepoy does not personally consider the matter till the order to withdraw the batta comes into effect, and then they understand the thing prac- tically, and feel excited. 1112. In the Queen's service, or in the European regiments in the Company's service, if an order were given out, the men would naturally understand what was meant to be conveyed to them, and would consider it for themselves ; but when such an order is given out to a Sepoy regiment, do the younger soldiers look to the older soldiers for their opinions, and do they look to the maraoul which has been in force, or do they look to the order which has been read r The younger soldiers look to the older soldiers, and all are attached to the mamoul ; most likely the younger soldier would go to the older Sepoys, or to a Native officer, and ask him what was meant. 1113. Lord Monteagle of Brandon.] Do you think any step could be taken in the event of the issue of any order such as you have described, that would give to the Native soldier whom that order more immediately or prospectively affected, a better acquaintance with what the order really meant, and the effect it had upon his own individual interest ? Every ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 113 Every attention is paid to that now ; at the time a Sepoy is enlisted, a state- Colonel ment of every advantage that the service holds out to hinij from that day till he •R''*^''^ Alexander. may be a Soubahdar Major, is put into his hands. qdDec. iS'-a 1114. Then the difficulty which you have described, and the contrast between the effect on the mind of the European soldier and of the Native soldier, arises, in your judgment, from the difference of character and the weight and import of the traditionary law upon the mind of the latter ? No doubt of it : I do not think I answered my Lord Tweeddale's question quite fully : at one time there was great excitement in the minds of the European soldiers ; they had for a long time been receiving their pay as it was given to them at different rates of exchange ; some of the newspapers alleged that those payments were not properly calculated, and about the year 1842 there was, per- haps, as much excitement, though differently expressed, in the minds of the European soldiers as there has been in the minds of the Native Sepoys : in consequence of this, the Commander-in-Chief sent in a clear statement to the Government, showing that the Europeans received their pay at one rate of exchange, their long-service pay at another; their pensions, perhaps, at one- third, and that the system was full of incongruities. When the matter was brought to the notice of Government and the Board of Directors, they settled the whole of those payments at a just and uniform rate of exchange ; and wher- ever there was an advantage in favour of the soldiers, it was liberally continued to them. I think that now the only discrepancy is a slight advantage in favour of boys in European regiments, and I am not sure but there is some slight advan- tage of the exchange in favour of one of the items of the European soldiers' pensions ; I know, however, that there is no calculation made to their dis- advantage : I am speaking from memory ; but it would be easy to ascertaiu, if greater accuracy is required. 1115. Lord Ephinstone.] Is it not the fact that the aggregate pay of the European soldier in India now, is more than he was strictly entitled to under the terms of his enlistment ? As far as I recollect, it was so in most cases before the corrections I have just mentioned were made : though much was written about it in the newspapers, I do not think that the soldiers, generally, knew upon which portions they received too much and on which too little ; but they did know that there were discre- pancies, some of which were to their disadvantage : there was one instance in which the men of a regiment when they were paid, said, " We will take whatever is given to us, but we decline to sign our acquittances." 1116. Did not this excitement happen also at an unfortunate moment; was it not in the beginning of the year 1842? Yes. 1117. Marquess of Tweeddale.'] Does the pay code of the army define all the allowances to which the troops are entitled? Yes ; this book which I have with me does so up to the date of its being issued ; it is four years old. 1118. During the late embarkation of troops to Rangoon, did any Sepoy refuse to accompany his regiment ? I was in England when the present Burmese war broke out ; but I have been in the habit of receiving communications from officers engaged in the war and at the Presidency ; and my information is, that one man only of all the force was absent at the time of embarkation, and the reason of his absence was not known : it is remarkable that only one man declined to go during the formei' Burmese war. I have in my hand a letter from a Staff officer of Artillery, the Assistant Adjutant-general, who writes thus : ' The knowledge of the following circumstances may or may not be useful; but I think it well to communicate, that on the 25th of May, the orders of the Government for the organization of an additional karkhana for immediate embarkation to Burmah were received at the Artillery head quarters ; that was made public at half-past one o'clock p. m. of that day, and within three hours the establishment of 49 men was complete : on the following day they were clothed, and the arrangements usual before embarkation were made, and on the 27th and 28th those men were all embarked on board the transports ; so acceptable was the service, that three or four times the number (20. 5.) required 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN «EFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel required presented themselves for enlistment within three hours : the B. Com- Robert Alexander, pany of Golundauze, within one month of their return to their families, after a separation of three years on foreign service at Malacca, volunteered their services 3 Dec. 1858 . |.Qj. ^T^^ expedition ; and the A. Company, in the Northern Division, two years after a service of three years at Aden, offered themselves for the same service." Then he goes on to state, " The 1 1th Native Infantry, I have heard, returned from Moulmein in 1850, and volunteered; but of them and others I do not speak with authority." 1119. To what do you attribute their willingness to go on foreign service ? To their confidence in the very liberal provisions made by Government for them, and to the soldier-like feeling with which they are ready to follow their officers wherever they are required : the Sepoy also has a great attachment to his colours ; it is a point of honour with him to follow them. 1120. Lord Colchester.] Was there a similar readiness shown in the expe- dition to China ? Yes ; but there were the unfortunate circumstances to which I have referred. 1121. l^oxdi Elphinstone.] In what spirits did the troops embark when they went to China ? I was present at the embarkation of the troops, and they went oif in the best possible spirits. After the 2d and 41st Regiments were embarked, a report was brought, while I was sitting with the Commander-in-Chief, that there was still some misunderstanding about remitting money to their families. In consequence of this, the Commander-in-Chief approved of my going on board the ships at once to make inquiries. I visited them all, and I found that the report was entirely erroneous. In one ship I found a few men who had some ready money in their hands, which they asked me to take on shore, and send to their families ; and I did so. When on board the different ships, I spoke to the men and the Native officers, and I found they were all in high spirits, and pleased with the service ; and on leaving one of the transports, in which the present Lieutenant- colonel Campbell, c.b., of the 41st Regiment, was with his men, the Sepoys came to the gangway, and cheered me with their " Deen, deen," as I was shoving off in the boat. During that war, many Sepoys volunteered from other regiments to join those in China. 1122. Marquess of rweet^fifl/e. J Did the men allege that they had been told that they were to return immediately the service was over ? Those that were kept in China were very much disappointed at being kept in garrison after the service was over, particularly the 41st Regiment. 1 1 23. Did they give as the reason, that it had been promised to them that they should return immediately the service was over } That is not in my memory specifically ; but I can very well understand that that feeling did arise in their minds when they were kept beyond three years, and only for garrison duty. 1124. Lord Elpkinstone.] How long were they kept ? I cannot now state the exact period. 1125. Were they very sickly at Chusan ; did the regiments lose any men ? The 41st lost several ; and the 4th suffered more than any other regiment. 1126. And several men were drowned on the passage to China ? There was a ship sent that was notoriously dangerous, and she foundered on the passage : Colonel Isack, with the flank companies and head quarters of the regiment, and many public followers, were on board. 1127. Viscount Canning.] When you say that the ship was notoriously unseaworthy, do you mean that it was known to be so before the troops em- barked ? She was known to be a peculiarly crank ship ; and it was currently said that a Captain had left her because she was a dangerous ship. 1128. Was that known to the Sepoys when they embarked in her ? No ; and it was not known to the Madras Government ; but after she had foundered, it was generally spoken of. I knew it then as a m9.tter of common report. 1129. Lord ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 115 1129. Lord Colchester. "] Was she a merchant vessel taken up for the purpose Colonel of conveying the troops ? Robert Alexander. Yes ; she was a merchant ship that had been much employed in the cotton ■, t^ Ig trade from Bombay and Calcutta ; sl)e was taken up at Calcutta for the con- *• veyance of the troops. Of late years, since steam has been introduced, regiments have been sent from Madras to the Northern Division by steam, and in three days the whole transport has been effected. In such a case tliere was no claim made for anything but their batta ; but it was not considered foreign service, and the Audit Department would only give the Sepoys batta for the three days that they were on board ship, leaving them to bring their families 529 miles overland without anything to meet the expense. There was a good deal of correspondence upon the subject ; and I understand that finally tiiere has been an order from the Court of Directors, that troops embarked under such circum- stances are to get batta according to the regulated distance from the point of embarkation to the point of disembarkation, which is a just and fair measure when they are sent to half-batta stations. 1 130. Marquess of Tweeddak.] Have the feelings of the Sepoys been affected, or their suspicions been excited, by changes in the former systems of pay and advantages granted to them ? I have, I think, already answered that question ; no doubt their confidence was shaken by the changes that were made. Formerly the Sepoy had that implicit confidence in the Government and his officers, that he did not think much about it ; we have now taught him to think much more upon those points than he used to do. 1131. What is the influence of Native and non-commissioned officers when- ever there is suspicion or dissatisfaction on such subjects ? The influence of the commissioned and non-commissioned officers is very great, and is often most beneficially exercised ; whatever occurs, they know, nor can anything be agitated among the Sepoys without their being quite aware of it. 1132. Upon what system are the promotions of Native officers in Madras made ? The first step in a Sepoy's promotion is becoming a Lance Naique or Corporal. When the Sepoy is on probation for promotion to be Naique or Corporal, he is selected according to his merits ; and the list of Lance Naiques is so formed as to give a fair share of promotion to the different castes and classes in the regiment. If the Lance Naique is found unfit for promotion to Naique, he is remanded to his duty as a private ; if he is promoted to be a Naique, he succeeds by seniority, if his qualifications and merits are sufficient, to be a Havildar or Serjeant ; in the same way, from Havildar he is promoted to Jemadar. If a Havildar, either from age or other circumstances, is not found fit for promotion, and is of good character, he is made a Colour or a Hospital Havildar, m each of which positions he gets an extra allowance, and in the former an honorary dis- tinction, but he is passed over in promotion. The Jemadars are in the same way promoted by seniority, unless there are very strong disqualifying reasons, to Soubahdars. The Soubahdars are in three classes, which have a progressive increase of pay according to length of service ; and from the Soubahdars is selected, for his merit, the Soubahdar-major, wlio has a brevet commission for that rank. 1133. Lord Elphinsfone.] You said that the original promotion of Naiques was made partly with reference to caste ; is it not the case that the majority of the Native officers in the Madras army are Mussnlmen ? An undue proportion were so ; that was carried to such an extent, that since 1839 it has been the most anxious care of the Commander-in-Chief to give every caste its fair proportion : the Mussulman so greatly preponderated in both the commissioned and non-commissioned officers, that it was absolutely necessary gradually to bring in the Hindoos for their fair share of promotion. 1134. Are the Hindoos the majority of the Naiques? Yes, I think they are so by this time ; but there were some corps in which the majority of non-commissioned officers were Mussulmen, while the majority of privates were Hindoos. (20.5.) Gg 1135. Marquess 116 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel 1135. Marquess of Tweeddale.] What is the proportion of Hindoos and Massul- Rohert Alexander, men in the Madras army ? ^ jx g^ Speaking generally, I should suppose about three-sevenths are Mussulmea "^"'^ -''^ ' and four-sevenths Hindoos. 1 136. Lord Elphinstone.] What led to the promotion of an undue proportion of Mussulmen ? The Mussulmen are generally the boldest and most energetic men, and, as a cla?s, the best soldiers ; but if that system had been allowed to go on, it must have had a very depressing effect upon the Hindoos, and they would have been completely discouraged by seeing that the promotions were so unequally given. The object of the Commander-in-Chief was, that there should be nothing to depress the military spirit of the Hindoos, many of whom are as high-spirited aa the Mussulmen ; there is great boldness, and often fierce courage, among the Mussulmen, whose religion makes them all fiatalists. 1137. Chairman.] Are not the Hindoos fatahsts ? Not all in the same degree: many Hindoos Iook upon death with the greatest unconcern ; but I should say, that fatalism with them is not so active and stimulative a principle as with Mahomedans. The Soubahdar Majors held no priority in their regiments till recently, when the new Articles of War established, that the Soubahdar Major should preside at all regimental Courts-martial ; that is contrary to the military principle, that a brevet commission does not give regimental precedence ; a Soubahdar Major would preside at a general or district Court-martial in virtue ot his brevet rank; but, in consequence of this order, he is obhged to preside even where his senior Soubahdar in the regiment may be a member of the regimental Court-martial. 1138. Did that order come out from England or from the Commander- in-Chief? From the Supreme Government ; it is embodied in the new Articles of War. 1139 Do the Native and European officers sit together upon the same Court- martial ? No. 1140. Is any sentence passed by Native officers without revision by Euro- peans ? The Native officers sit on Courts-martial precisely in the same way as European otficers, and their sentences have exactly the same effect. 1141. IVlarquess of Tzereddale.] Will you state how a Native Court-martial is composed ? I It is composed precisely in the same way as a European Court-martial, of Native officers with an interpreter, and a Europeon officer to conduct the proceedings. At a regimental Court-martial the Adjutant conducts the proceedings, and the regimental interpreter interprets. In the case of a line, garrison or district Court-martial, an interpreter and an officer to conduct the proceedings are detailed ; at general Courts-martial the Deputy-Judge Advocate-general conducts the proceedings, and they are forwarded to the Commander-in-Chief for confirma- tion in the same way as are those of the European general Courts-martial. 1142. The interpreter is a person who has passed in languages as an interpreter ? Yes. 1143. And the Adjutant has passed in languages ? Yes, to obtain stalf appointment. 1 144. Lord Elphinstone.] Do you prefer the system of promotion by selection, as it is in the Madras army, or that of promotion by seniority, as you are aware is the case in Bengal ? I do not think there is the slightest comparison between the two, even in the Madras army ; when an officer gets rather aged, and at the top of his pro- fession, it is difficult to keep up his energies. We often find that a remarkably smart Havildar gets less active when he becoines even a Jemadar, though we have a check upon and stimulant for him ; there are many valuable men in the Native officers of the Madras army, who in a campaign, or on hard service, would ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 117 would be competent to command their men, if all the European officers were Colonel killed or disabled. Robert Alexander. 1 145. They are all looked up to in their regiments ? 3d Dec 1852. They are ; and a good Euro[)ean officer of any regiment would do all in his power to cherish the military feelings and obtain the confidence of the Native officers. 1146. No jealously would be felt by the European officers of the influence and respectability of the Native officers ? There ought not to be. The Native officer is a very important connecting link between the Sepoy and the European officer. The European officer can refer to him for information upon all subjects, and ascertain from him the feelings of the men ; he can explain anything that requires explanation to the Native officer, and, where the proper confidence exists, may feel assured that the Native officer will put it before the men in the best possible way. 1147. You do not think that that influence would ever be likely to be for- midable to the State ? Whether Native officers are promoted by seniority or by selection, their influ- ence, 1 think, will be the same ; so lonp^ as they are faithful to the Government, their influence is in every way beneficial, and I know instances in which it has allayed the excitement in the Sepoys' minds. With proper treatment, [ see no reason to doubt the permanence of the loyalty and fidelity of the Sepoy army, and of course, with it, of the Native officer 1148. liarl of J Ibemark.] Should you give the preference to appointments by seniority, or by selection ? By selection. I think you would damp the whole energies of our army, if the promotions were by seniority. I would state, as the result of my own experience, that if you appointed by seniority, the Native officers so appointed would be in as influential positions as officers selected, and, being old and less efficient men, they would be less able to resist pride, or control any popular feelings among the Sepoys. When the discussion arose about thebattain 1841, as soon as the alteration was known, and the rigiments were ordered to move up to Hyderabad, there was a Jemadar of the Horse Artillery who went amonf^- his men, and assured them that every thing would come right at last, and, by the weight of his influence and high character, contributed essentially to keep the Sepoys steady and true. During the excitement that afterwards arose, those very men turned out to maintain loyalty and discipline against their own friends and relations in another corps. Of course it was my duty, in the position I held, to obtain the best information I could, and for that purpose I was in con- stant correspondence with both European and Native officers, and I know this fact from private information ; the Jemadar died very shortly afterwards of the cholera. 1149. Lord Elphinslone.] Was he one of the officers who was recommended to the Government for a special mark of approbation ? I think he died on the march to Hyderabad, belore the excitement broke out ; but the men knew, before they left Bangalore, that the reduction of batta was to have effect. There was also an old pensioned Soubahdar, and other pensioners, who went much among the men at Hyderabad, using their influence and advice in the best spirit of loyalty and good feeling, and communicated valuable infor- mation as to the feeling of the men : their praiseworthy conduct in endeavouring to allay their excitement, was specially rewarded by the Court of Directors, as were also some Native officers and men who were serving in the ranks. 1150. At the time there was a Mahomedan preacher at Bhelore, who was constantly preaching disaffection to the Sepoys, is it nut the fact, that some of the pensioned Native officers gave information to the Government of that cir- cumstance ? Yes ; there were several pensioners who gave information, and though they suffered very severely in consequence, the Government did nothing for them. I was informed that they could not get fire or water from the other Mussulmen. The Moulavee you allude to had immense influence at Vellore and in the sur- rounding country ; he had many mooreeds, or followers, and he was reported to have openly preached disaffection against the Government. (20.6.) 1151. Lord 118 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel 1151. Lord Monteagle of Brandon.J You have described the Native and the Robert Alexander. European Courts-raartial. Speaking generally, is the administration of those judicial functions by Native Courts-martial satisfactory ? 3d Dec 185a . J tj^jjjjj ij jg ygj,y satisfactory ; the Native officers weigh the evidence ex- tremely well, and they understand their own countrymen, and arrive at very good decisions. 11 52. Taking into account the questionable nature of some classes of Oriential evidence, do you think that an inteUigent and upright Native officer sitting on one of those Courts- martial, has a better means of discriminating between true and false evidence than a European officer would have under similar circumstances ? Certainly ; the amount of false evidence given in many trials in India, is very great, and a Native would, in general, understand the nature of it in his own countrymen better than a European. 1 may mention that Native Courts- martial are conducted according to European laws of evidence. 1153. Earl of Albemarle.] Do you consider the efficiency of the Madras Native army to be equal now to what it was in former periods ; take, for instance, Lord Clive's time, or Sir Arthur Wellesley's ? The Madras army has not of late years been much employed in warfare ; but I think, if they were called into the field, a little accustomed to be under fire, and properly commanded, they would do as good service as was ever done under either Clive or Wellesley. I may mention, that to this day the only name by which his late Grace, the Duke of Wellington, is known to and venerated by the L>epoys, is General Wellesley. 1154. Marquess of Tweeddale.] What is the effect of a Sepoy being placed on Public Works by sentence of a Court-martial ? During the time that corporal punishment in the army was abolished, and when there was no other punishment for serious oflferices but hard labour in irons, it told most oppressively upon the Native army. A man involved tlie disgrace of his family by being sentenced to labour among tVlons, and suffered severely by the loss of his service in consequence of that sentence ; men who were careless of character, were indifferent to the punishment, and were insubor- dinate in proportion ; and while it was ruin to an old .Sepoy, a young one, after the completion of his sentence, could go to a distant station, where he would be unknown, and there re-enlist. 1155. If men of the highest caste in the Madras Army have committed a military offence, and are sentenced to labour on the roads, does it not frequently happen that they are chained to low caste men ? Formerly that was so : by the new Articles of War they are relieved from that punishment, except for disgraceful conduct, and some extreme crimes. 1156. The natives have no feeling for any punishment, whether corporal or any other punishment, provided it does not touch their caste ? Not more than other men ; the Sepoys themselves, and particularly the Native officers, were strongly averse to the abolition of corporal, with the substitution of such other kinds of punishment for it. I recollect a fine old Soubahdar in my regiment saying to me when those orders first came out, " Take care what you are about, sir ; for if you do not, the men will neither love nor fear you." 1157. A high caste man does not care for being flogged under a military sentence ? A high caste man would, of course, feel the disgrace of being flogged ; but he would bear it as a soldier, and, as compared with the degradation of being sent to work on the roads in irons, you may say that he would feel it lightly ; but, with good discipline, I can hardly imagine the necessity of flogging a high or low caste man of decent character. There is, I think, no army in the world in which punishment need be less resorted to than in the Madras Army, in which the abolition of corporal, and substitution of other punishments, worked so badly. 1 1 58. Lord Elphinstone.] Flogging in the army has been restored ? Yes ; by new Articles of War it has been restored. 1159. Viscount Cannivg.] After a Sepoy has been sentenced to imprisonment and hard labour, what becomes of him ? He is dismissed the service ; a man who has been classed with felons, is not to be received back again into the service. 1160. Is ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 119 1160. Is he discharged from the army in consequence of the feelings of his Colonel comrades towards him ? Robert Alexander. The object was, I presume, to maintain a high mihtary feeling, by the removal , y. g from the army of men who have been classed with felons ; if we had men who ^ * to-day were associated with felons, and to-morrow come back into the army, it would sink the whole character of the service. 1161. Then it is not the disgrace of being found guilty of the offence, but the being classed with felons, that operates upon the minds of the Sepoys ? Exactly. 1162. A Sepoy might sometimes be sentenced to imprisonment with hard labour for an offence coming short of felony ? Yes ; in those days there was no other punishment but imprisonment with hard labour for anything like a serious offence, and it was often a painful duty to sentence a man to imprisonment and hard labour because there was no alter- native. 1163. And though the offence that had been committed might be something very short of felony, yet the party who had been sentenced to imprisonment with hard labour would be considered henceforward as in the same class of felons ? Exactly : in the case of a Native of high caste, he may not feel, or his caste people may not feel, that there is any moral turpitude in the act that has been committed, but the punishment to which he has been subjected causes him to lose caste. I remember public notice being taken of the case of a wealthy man in Calcutta having been condemned to transportation for forgery ; and when he returned to Calcutta, there was no demur made by his caste to the moral guilt he had incurred ; but he was out of caste, because he had cooked in unclean places : that I give as a specimen of the feeling that exists. 1 164. Lord Elphinstone.'] Would a man be obliged to leave the regiment after he had been flogged ? No ; unless he had been condemned for " disgraceful conduct." 1165. But he would be obliged to leave it after he had been condemned to hard labour in irons ? Yes. 1166. Earl oi Albemarle.'] Has the question of the substitution of secondary punishment for flogging been considered in India? We have a scale of secondary punishments for light offences. 1167. Marquess oi Tweeddale.] Has it been the custom from time immemorial in India to punish the soldiers by flogging ? Yes ; and if you refer to the records of the army in Sir Eyre Coote's time, you will find sentences, not only of extremely severe floggings, but of men to have their ears cut off. 1168. Under the Native Princes was not flogging practised on the soldiers in the Native armies ? Not as we practise it ; under Native powers punishments would be arbitrary ; and it must have been in such a spirit that Native officers passed such sentences in Sir Eyre Coote's time, which I need hardly say were not confirmed by the Commander-in-Chief. 1 1 69. Viscount Canning.] Were those sentences passed for offences which would, under the present system, be punished by flogging? My memory is not accurate enough to enable me to state ; it is a thing which I have read of in my official capacity ; as far as I remember, they were offences in the field. I remember one extremely severe sentence upon a man for having slept on his post. 1170. Marquess of Tweeddale.] How does what is called good-conduct pay operate in the army 1 As an incentive to good conduct, it operates scarcely at all : a year before the Sepoy is entitled to good-conduct pay, if his health fails him, he is entitled to a pension of four rupees a month ; during the first 14 years of his service, which is the time at which he is most likely to run wild, it has not the slightest influence (20.5.) Hh upon 3d Dec. 185a. 120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel ^P°^ ^^^ ' ^^^ after that time, if he keeps clear of a Court-martial, he has a Mobert Alexander, claim to what is called good-conduct pay, but which, in reality, is rather long- service pay. 1171. Earl of Albemarle.] What would you suggest as a remedy ? Giving good-conduct pay, as is done in Her Majesty's service, and in the Com- pany's European Corps for shorter portions of service, 5, 10, 15 and 20 years' service. 1172. Lord Elphmstone.] Do the Sepoys attach much value to the orders of India ? They value them ; but I do not think it is so congenial to the Native mind as the old system of bestowing shotriums, swords, palanquin and other allowances. The orders of India are limited in number, and the parties receiving them disappear from the ranks of the army. I have here an Army List of 1850 ; out of 34 Subahdars who have the highest order of Sirdar Bahadoor, 22 are on the Pension Establishment ; and, as regards the second class, or the Bahadoors, there are 23 out of 33 of those also pensioned ; so that the order is hardly in the ranks of the army, instead of being constantly before the eyes of the Sepoys : the order of Merit is for distinguished service in the field, and that is a noble institution. 1173. Are there many officers who receive that order? I believe that in the Madras army some non-commissioned officers and Sepoys only have obtained it ; I do not think any Native officers have it. 1174. Do not the Sepoys value grants of villages or jaghires ? They like very much the grant of a shotrium ; the Native looks much to a provision for his family ; anything which provides for his family is most acceptable to him. 1175. Chairman.] Is the reward of a village or a jaghire frequently given ? No, it is no longer given ; the order of India and the order of Merit were given as a compensation for all such grants ; the grant of shotrium and of palanquin allowances, or any of those other grants which were formerly made, are no longer held out to the men. 1 176. From what fund was the grant of a jaghire made ? From the land revenues ; it was an assignment on the revenues of a certain district. 1177. Would that give the parties any right over the Ryots ? Within the Company's territories it would not; there would be the civil authority to check them ; but under a Native government any grant of that sort would give them great power, such as is not recognized in the Company's ter- ritories. 1178. Lord Elpjdnstone.] Were not those grants in accordance with the practice of the ancient governments ? I am not certain, but think they are not more ancient than the Mahomedan institutions. 1179. The palanquin allowance and the Nobut ? Yes ; but the Nobut given to Native officers never answered, for you could not raise the men to whom it was granted to the same position as one of the highest Native nobles, to whom only such a dignity was accorded by Native Sovereigns ; our Native officers had not the wealth or prestige of the Native nobility ; the dignity of the Nobut entitles to the privilege of beating drums at the gate of the palace of a Native Sovereign or nobleman ; and when the Govern- ment conferred this honour upon a Native officer living in an ordinary house, with perhaps a couple or 300 rupees a month, neither the Nabob of Arcot nor any Native nobleman would recognize him as equal in rank, or to be classed with themselves ; the Nobut in such circumstances had not the same dignity in the eyes of the people. 1180. Chairman.] Do many of the ancient nobility come into the army ? Such nobility is not hereditary ; it does not go by descent, as among us ; but several Mussulmen and others of good families now impoverished come into the army, particularly into the Cavalry and Artillery. 1181. Marquess ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 121 1181. Marqaess of Tweeddak.'l What is the system of pension of the Native Colonel troops ? Robert Alexandtr. After 15 years' service, the Sepoy, if his health fails him, and he is pronounced ^j D^TTs-^a unfit for service, is pensioned on four rupees a month : Havildars and Naiques ' " also receive, after the same length of service, pensions proportionate to their ranks. The Native oflScers and men who are pronounced unfit for service, are either pensioned or invalided, that is, transferred to veteran battalions, after 15 years' service. The Soubahdar now gets 25 rupees a month ; formerly he had much more. 1182. Lord Elphinstone.] How much more? Under 40 years' service, a first-class Soubahdar in the Cavalry got 59 rupees, and in the Infantry 35 rupees a month. The pensions of Jemadars are now only 12 rupees a month. 1 183. Chairman.] You make use of the word " formerly " ; how far back do you go ? I mean before 1837. After 40 years' service, Soubahdars now get 40 rupees, and Jemadars 20 rupees a month. 1 184. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Has the system been altered of late years, and, if so, is it for the better or worse ? The greater ease with which a Sepoy can obtain a pension now than formerly is a great advantage to him ; but 1 think it is a serious detriment to the inte- rests of the service, and a heavy expense to the Government. The Native oflScers are worse off now. 1185. Chairman.] How is it easier for the Sepoys to obtain pensions now than formerly ? Formerly, in the Madras army, a Sepoy was not allowed to count service till he was 18 years of age ; he had to serve 20 years before he was entitled to a pension, and if found unfit for service then, he had a pension of 3 rupees 8 annas a month. By the new system, introduced under orders from the Supreme Government, the Sepoy can count service from 16 years of age, and he is eligible for a pension of 4 rupees a month after 15 years' service, when only 31 years of age; the consequence is, that there is a verj'^ powerful induce- ment for a man to get out of the service if he is of a weakly constitution, or a successful malingerer, and then he is thrown upon the Government, who have to pay him 4 rupees a month for life. Formerly a man was not eligible to pension for long service, and being worn out, under 38 years of age. 1186. Lord Chichester.] Is the Sepoy worn out at the age of 31 ? No ; most of them would be in their prime at that age. It was, I think, unwise to allow them to count service from the age of 16. If you take men who were enlisted at 16 years of age, or before they have gained strength, you will often see them drawn down on the left side by the weight of the musket. It would, I think, hav^e been much better not to have counted service till 18 years of age. 1187. Chairman.] Who determines at what age the recruit shall be taken ? The Commanding Officer recruits for his own regiment ; but there is an establishment for orphans, and if a lad in that establishment, of the age of 16, appears to be a stout lad, the Commanding Officer is anxious to enlist him, in order to increase his means of living, and to provide for another orphan. There is always a kind feeling on the part of officers to take the sons of good men and orphans, as soon as by regulation they are eligible for the service. 1188. But still the disposition of the Commanding Officer would be to get the finest men he could get for his regiment ? Certainly; if it was a mere question of whether he should take a boy of 16 or a youth of 18, he would take the latter. 1 189. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Are the rewards held out for distinguished services or good conduct effectual ? They are certainly prized ; but I think they are too much limited by their small numbers. I may show the effect of that limitation by an example : on the return of the troops from Chiiia, a Native officer, who had distinguished him- self very much, was recommended strongly to the Commander-in-Chief to be • (20. 5.) made 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITl'EE Colund made a Bahadoor ; but the Cornmaader-in-Chief has in the Adjutaat-general's Bobert Alexander, office a record of every Native officer's services, and every claim that they have jj D^^}j,2, to the distinction. With this Native officer who had distinguished himself in ' China, came in the regular course of selection another officer of the name of Mahomed Shalley, of the 20th Regiment of Native Infantry, who had fought in the battles of Assaye and Argaum, and been through both the Mahratta campaigns ; and the question arose whether the reward should be given to the officer who had distinguished himself in China, or to the old veteran who had seen so much service in former wars. Had not the number of these distinctions been limited, both officers might have been taken ; but being Umited, the Native officer who had served in China had to wait, and the other received the order of India. Something similar occurred in the case of a Native officer of Sappers and Miners, who distinguished himself under Sir C. Napier in Scinde. 1190. What influences are there among the non-military classes of Natives by which the feelings of the Sepoys may be excited on the subject of pay, pensions and allowances ? There is a very large population connected with the Sepoys, and dependent upon their means of subsistence ; whatever, therefore, affects the Sepoys, imme- diately touches the interests of thousands of people around them, and influences their feelings towards the Government. 1191. And those persons excite the Sepoys ? They have as much interest in the Sepoy's pay as the Sepoy himself ; they act upon each other. 1192. In the changes which have been made of late years, has the necessity of effecting a reduction of expenditure been of sufficient weight to prove that it was advisable to risk a shock being given to the confidence felt by the Native army in the permanency of their terms of service and enlistment ? In regard to some of the alterations that have been made of late years, they have not been reductions of expense to the Government ; as regards pensions, it would be a matter of calculation whether the alteration in the pension establish- ment will not involve a much heavier expense to the Government than would have been incurred by putting the armies of other Presidencies on the Madras rates of batta, which were only granted in full on foreign or field service and on service beyond the frontier of the Company's country ; take, for instance, Hyder- abad, and I believe that it will be found that almost ever since batta was taken away, and the increased rate of compensation for rice allowed, the Sepoy has received more than when in receipt of full batta; the same applies at Nagpore, and with the troops serving beyond the Nerbuddha, where, at one time, the increased expense was represented to be considerably more than a lac of rupees a year. Again, when the batta was reduced in 1841 , the rate of exchange for the troops was established at 121 Hyderabad rupees for 100 Madras rupees. Now, I believe, that though it might be possible to find in that country a rupee that might assay to that difference of value, yet there is none such current, and the proper difference would have been about 15 or 15^ per cent. ; taking tbfe common currency at Hyderabad, which is the Bagh Chulnee rupee, the Government has incurred a loss there of about 5i per cent, on the whole of their payments to their troops since 1841, while up to that period they had been paying them at the rate of about 4^ per cent, too little. 1193. Lord Elphinstone,'] Therefore, that measure of supposed reduction, which caused so much discontent among the Native troops, has actually led to an increase of expense to the State ? Certainly, in some instances, and most so at Hyderabad and in the Sau^rur territories; it also involves another anomaly, viz., that the troops in receipt of compensation for rice in garrison, receive less money when they get batta to defray their increased expenses in the field. 1194. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Are the pay and allowances sufficient? I do not think the marching batta is sufficient ; it is 1 rupee 8 annas a month to a Sepoy, or in English money about 3s. ; the rate of march of troops from station to station, not on active service, is nine miles a day ; taking that for a month of 31 days, it amounts to 279 miles a month, and the Sepoy has to pay all his marching expenses for this time and distance from an additional allowance of ON THB GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 123 of a small fraction above Id. a day. Their hutting allowance is another which Colonel I do not think sufficient ; the Sepoys' pay is 7 rupees a month, and that of the non- Robert Alexander. commissioned officers was increased in 1837 ; but I certainly think that it is neces- , „ „ sary to look prospectively to doing more for the Native officers, and to find some ' " means of employment or better provision for them out of the service ; something that will give .them more than the present rate of pension, and keep them on a fair relative footing with the advancing interests of their countrymen in civil life. 1195. Lord Elphinstone.] Are not they generally too old to begin a new caree'^ after that length of service ? They are, unless employment could be given to them in superintending- situa- tions in a pohce force. I think the present rate of pension of 25 rupees to a Soubahdar, and particularly to the Cavalry officers, who are frequently men of good family, and burthened with many dependents, is insufficient, and that some- thing more should be done, such as giving them charges or employment that should be honorary and moderately remunerative. 1196. Viscount Canning.] Has any branch of employment suggested itself to you? The difficulty is, that the officers cling so long to the service ; but if there was an efficiently organized police, a good number of them might be provided for in that way. 1197. You mean by police, military police? I mean a police similar to the police in England, or the gens d'armeries. 1198. Chairman,] It has appeared in evidence before this Committee, that a great number of pensioners are not natives of the country to which the army belongs ; and it has been stated also, that considerable advantage arose from that circumstance. Do you agree in that opinion ? With us that is an exception ; our army is raised, and the greater part of the pensioners live, in our own provinces ; the others are Hindostanees, and those men when pensioned return, of course, to their own country, but there are but comparatively a few of them. 1199. Then the observation does not apply to your army t No. 1200. Marquess of Tweeddale.] What is the strength of the Madras army ? There are about 60,000 men. 1201 . How many foreigners are there among the 60,000 ? Off-hand, I should say that there would not be more than perhaps 1 ,000 or 1,500 ; but I have no memoranda on the subject to refer to. 1202. What arrangements are made in the military cantonments to control the sale of spirits and intoxicating drugs to the military classes ? There exists what is called the " Abkarry contract system," which is, that a person buys from the Commissariat Department a monopoly of the sale of spirits and intoxicating drugs in the military cantonments. 1203. Chairman.] Is that person a Native ? He is a Native ; there is no reason why he should not be a European ; but I never knew a European hold the contract, except at Bellary. The object of this person therefore is, to indemnify himself for the large sum he has to give for this monopoly by the sale of what demoralises the European and Native soldiers, and all the inhabitants of the cantonment. The police jurisdiction, which, by the regulations, should be a check upon this sale of spirits and intoxi- cating drugs, is in the hands of the same authority, which is expected to realise the largest amount from the sale of the monopoly. The consequence is, that while there are regulations for the legal sale, there is an illegal one carried on, which has been strongly represented on several occasions by the Commanding Officers of regiments to the Commander-in-Chief, and which thev cannot check. The Medical Board has also remonstrated against the Abkaree contract, on account of its ill effects upon the health of the troops. 1204. Lord Elphinslone.] If there was no monopoly, but everybody was at liberty to sell spirits in the cantonments, do you suppose that a less quantity would be consumed than at present r (20. 5.) 1 1 Much 124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel Much less. Supposing that there were no monopoly, but that the sale of Rotert Alexander, spirits was allowed only by licenses, those licenses could be granted upon con- ditions that would give a sufficient check to the sale. You have now a capitalist' 3 Dec. 1853 . paying a large sum to the Government for the monopoly ; and I have no hesita- tion in saying, that the police authority, which ought to check the monopolist's illegal sale, does not check it, and that is the bane of all the military classes in our Presidency. 1205. As the party pays a large sum for his monopoly, is he not obliged to increase the price of his spirits in order to realise a profit ? Yes, he would be, unless by the sale of larger quantities he can realisg a profit- able return for his money on a lower price. 1206. If anybody who was licensed might sell spirits, would not the price of spirits be lowered ? It might be advisable to levy an excise duty, perhaps. In a memorandum I have here, I find that in the year 1837-38 there was at Bangalore paid 96,500 rupees, for the monopoly of the sale of spirits to the military. 1207. That is over and above the excise or other duty? The abkaree contractor has to distil his spirits, to keep up his shops, and pay the attendants, to pay an establishment of peons, and every incidental expense, in addition to this payment to the Government, and he must be reimbursed by the drinking habits of the military classes. 1208. Lord Wodehouse.] May not his profit be made by the higher price he compels the parties to pay for the spirits ? But he must keep the price within the means of the men. At Secunderabad a man paid 64,864 rupees for the monopoly. At Kamptee, where the force appeared to have been reduced, 44,114 rupees; at Jaulnah, which is a small station, 19,025 rupees; at Trichinopoly, 34,010 rupees ; but wherever the con- tractor or monopolist will not give a sufficient sum, then the Government distils on its own account, and sells to the soldiery. At the time referred to, I find that at Trichinopoly it was managed by the Government servants, so that the same officials who had to check the drunkenness of the soldiers had to manufac- ture and sell to them the means of getting drunk. 1209. Viscount Canning^ In your view, the principal vice of the arrange- ment is, that the police, who ought to be the guardians of order and sobriety, have an interest in a large consumption of spirits 1 Yes ; the police have an understanding with the contractor, and it is by the illicit sale, contrary to the Regulations, that he gets his large profits. 1210. In what manner does the law restrict the sale ? The law regulates the circumstances under which spirits may be sold ; they are not allowed to sell to Europeans at all. It might appear to any persons who read the Regulations, that they were sufficient, but in practice they are not so. 1211. Lord Elphinstone.] The reason they are insufficient is, that the contrac- tor bribes the police ? Yes ; or what amounts to the same thing, there is a mutual interest between him and the Native officials ; if it were not so, he could not hold the contract at the high rates now given. At Cannanore the man paid 29,193 rupees ; at Masulipatam, 28,007 rupees ; at Vellore, 25,512 rupees, and at Arcot, 13,500 rupees ; therefore, in those stations, which do not embrace the whole of the army, but were taken as specimens, the total amount paid to the Government for the monopoly of the sale of spirits and intoxicating drugs to the soldiery, was 3 lacs and 54,725 rupees for one year. 1212. Lord Ashburton."] What remedy would you suggest ? I am not saying that you could prevent the sale of spirits altogether, for to attempt it would only stimulate smuggling ; instead, however, of throwing it into the hands of a large capitahst and monopolist, perhaps a better way would be to grant licenses to parties for the sale of spirits, under such restrictions as are now imposed upon the monopolist. If you had a number of men licensed, one might be made a check upon another. One of the privileges of the monopolist is, that if he can find anybody selling spirits contrary to his contract, they are confiscated for his benefit. I may mention, that this subject has been gone into by ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 125 by the Commander-in-Chief of the Madras Army, in answer to a Minute of the Colonel Government, of which copies may be obtained now from the East India House. Robert Alexander. The Minute of Council is No. 2,403, dated the 20th June 1840. The answer to that Minute of Council is a letter from the Adjutant-general of the Madras 3^ Dec 1852. army, No. 809, dated the 5th of October 1840, Connected with those, there are the reports and opinions of the Brigadier Commandant of Artillery, and the officers commanding European regiments, deprecating the system of abkarry contracts, and bringing forward facts in proof of the evils that exist. I would particularly mention a letter from the Adjutant-general of the Madras Army, No. 292, dated 25 March 1843, forwarding to Government a correspondence with Lieutenant-colonel Milner, Her Majesty's 94th Regiment, with the Com- mander-in-Chief's sentiments thereon. 1213. Marquess oi Tweeddale.'] The effect of this system of collecting revenue for the State by the grant of these monopolies, is to injure the moral character of the troops ? Decidedly ; and every Commander-in-Chief, and every officer commanding a regiment, either of Europeans or of Natives, deprecates the abkarry contracts. 1214. How does it affect the European troops ? By encouraging drunkenness, and that of the worst kind. In the papers which I have referred to, if called for from the India House, you will see a detailed statement of the effects, and if you could estimate the expense of crime and its consequences, I am sure it would turn out that those large sums which are raised by granting monopolies for the sale of spirits, were over and over again lost by the expense incurred in imprisonments, transportations, hospital treat- ment and deaths of European soldiers, the consequence of drunkenness. 1215. Lord Elphinstone.^ If the police in the military cantonments were placed under civil officers and not under Commissariat officers, do not you suppose that the effect would be to prevent the sale of spirits, if the sale was restricted, as at present, to a single contractor, instead of its being allowed to any person who chose to set up a shop ? If your Lordship will separate the police authority from the authority that makes the contract, it will be of less importance whether you have it under one man or under many men ; but let the magisterial authority be an effectual check upon the sale of spirits, and I have no hesitation in saying that the consequence will be, that morality will be improved, and the abkarry contracts proportionally diminished in value. 1216. In every station is the head of the police also a Commissariat officer? Yes ; wherever there is a Commissariat officer, he is in charge of the police ; nominally the officer commanding is the head of the police, but all its power and influence is in the hands of the Commissariat. 1217. Chairman.] Are the Natives much addicted to spirit -drinking ? It is fast increasing among them, in consequence of this very thing. 1218. Lord Elphinstone.] But drunkenness among the European soldiers has diminished r Yes, the moral character of the soldiers is very much improved, but what drunkenness is going on is principally in consequence of this system ; and the way in which it operates is horrible. If a strong powerful European gets riotous, the arrack-sellers will drug the spirits, and he is reduced to a state of insensibihty ; delirium tremens follows, and often death. 1219. Chairman.] What drugs do they use? Chilhes, opium, stramonium, bhang, and others. 1220. Are intoxicating drugs much used by the Natives ? Opium and bhang are used; and drunkenness seems to be on the increase : as the abkaree contractor's profits cannot be realised unless he stimulates the vice, the drunkenness of the military community and the profits of the con- tractor are commensurate. 1221. Lord Elphinstone.] Do you know whether the sums realised by the sale of abkaree contracts are greater now than they were in former years ? I know no other prices paid for contracts than those I have mentioned, for every Native regiment that comes into a cantonment, I think, that 600 rupees (20. 5.) ^ month 126 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel a month additional is paid by the contractor, and for every European regiment, Eoheri Alexander. ^ much larger sum ; and that as the civil population of a cantonment increases, 3d DecTissa. ^^^ abkarry contractor has to pay more for his monopoly. 1222. Chairman.] Does the intoxication of the Natives take place mostly with spirits or with drugs ? Spirit-drinking is very fast spreading among the natives ; I know this, not only from ofl5cial data, but from information I have received from gentlemen in the civil service, and from missionaries, who say that it is much on the increase with the Native population generally : in the year 1843 there were 31 1 Courts-martial in the Madras Army on charges of drunkenness ; in 1844, 315; in 1845, 304; in 1846, 310, and in 1847, 357; but this includes two regiments of European Infantry and four battalions of Artillery. 1223. Is it carried on more with drugs or with spirits ? With spirits, I should think ; though some classes of Natives make free use of intoxicating drugs. 1224. Lord Elphinstone.] The Natives are not addicted to drunkenness, except they come into military cantonments ? You will find, as you approach a military cantonment or European society, drunkenness increase ; you may in some degree tell your approach by that circumstance ; in every village you will see the abkaree contractor's shop, and often, perhaps, the only conspicuous European article will be the square gin- bottle in its window. 1225. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Have you been in the habit of bringing this subject before the notice of the Commander-in-Chief? Yes, very frequently before different Commanders-in-Chief. 1226. Has it been remedied in any way 1 No ; the Commander-in-Chief has received reports and representations from ofiicers commanding regiments, and he has made his representation to the Government, but the system remains as it was. 1227. Lord Elphinstone.] Has not the sale of beer, which is furnished now by the Company at its cost price at the different stations where European troops are quartered, contributed very much to check the vice of drunkenness ? Very much ; it has been attended with very beneficial consequences, both to the health and conduct of the troops. The beer is furnished on a most liberal scale by the Court of Directors, and the expenses of carriage so equalized that the soldier can drink excellent beer, nearly, if not quite, as cheap as in England. 1228. Either at Nagporeor at Hyderabad? 1229. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Did you in your official capacity give your attention to the barrack accommodation of the European soldiery in the Madras Presidency ? I did. 1230. Will you describe, generally, what your view upon the subject is ? I necessarily had, in the course of my duties, to give my attention to these subjects ; the old system of barrack accommodation, in which the men generally lived, in low barracks built in squares, was very far inferior to what is now known as the Bengal system of barrack accommodation, in which separate barracks are built for each company; they are high roomy buildings, with verandahs round them; and, under a recent Regulation, are supplied wath punkahs and wet tatties for the hot weather ; everything that goes under the name of " barrack supplies " are furnished on a most liberal scale, and with the exception of the provision for married men, there is, perhaps, little or nothing to be desired in the barrack accommodation of European soldiers under the new system, if more men are not put in the buildings than they were originally calculated to hold. 1231. Lovd Elphinstone.] Do you happen to know what the height of the rooms is ? I think they are about 18 feet, not less ; but I do not remember dimensions. 1232. Marquess ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 127 • 1232. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Are you aware whether the same objectionable Colonel system in regard to the women and families, as that in the garrison barrack in Robert Alexander. Fort St. George, till lately altered, obtains in barracks constructed on the , ^ f. Bengal standard plan, which has recently been made applicable to Madras ? 3 ec. 1852 . When I left India, there had been orders issued for one range of barracks to be built according to the Bengal plan, to accommodate the families of a regiment ; the system established in the Madias Army, for so long a time as I have any knowledge of its records, is that the European married soldier lived in what is called a parcherry, where he has a cottage for himself and his family, distinct from the barracks. 1233. Chairman.] What is the limit as to the number of wives in a regiment allowed to go to India ? In the Company's service it has only lately been restricted ; formerly it was allowed at the commanding officer's discretion. I may mention, in answer to a former question, that at Fort St. George, they have now a separate accommoda- tion for the families of soldiers, which they had not before ; it was granted only lately. 1234. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Will you explain what those parcherries are, which are given to the families in Fort St. George ? .In Fort St. George, there being no ground available for them to build upon, the Governor of Madras, who is governor of and commands in the Fort, ordered that an old gun-shed should be given up for that purpose, and it was granted as an accommodation for the families, so that they live out of the barracks. 1235. How many married soldiers have apartments in that space ? I do not recollect the number, but when I was ordered by the Commander in- Chief to visit and report upon it to him, it was full, and both men and women were grateful for the consideration that had been shown for their comfort. 1 236^ Marquess of Tweeddale.] Did it come within your knowledge, that when new barracks were required to be constructed at Bellary, about 1844, Colonel Sim, then Chief Engineer at Madras, proposed a plan, and also a modified plan, for the better accommodation of the married soldiers and their families ? I do not remember whether I saw Colonel Sim's plan, but think that most probably I did. I am aware that he did submit a plan of locating the families in a parcherry, and also another plan of having a separate barrack for them, and that under orders from Bengal, a separate barrack was ordered to be built for the families to live in. 1237. Lord Elphinstone.] The parcherry was disallowed? It was. 1238. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Can you state the objections which caused the plan to be rejected after it was unanimously approved by the commanding officers of both services, and it was recommended to the Government that it should be carried out ? The objection was stated in an extract from the Minutes of Consultation sent from the Government to the Commander-in-Chief, stating that it was inexpe- dient to allow the parcherry system, on account of the depraved habits of the soldiers' wives ; that it affijrded them opportunities for indulging in vice and selling spirits, and that such a system was not allowed in other colonies where Her Majesty's troops were stationed. To the best of my recollection, though these are not the precise words, that was the reason given against the parcherry system . 1239. Will you be good enough to state what, from your experience, your opinion is of the parcherry system ? I would state my own opinion, which I know to be also the opinion of very experienced commanding officers, that nothing can be more ruinous to the delicacy of a woman's character, or destructive of her family comfort, than life in barracks. In a parcherry, every soldier has his cottage in which he can keep his wife and children as domestic and secluded as in a village in England. In a barrack nothing separates them at any time from those living under the same roof, but a cloth or canvass screen. The women have to dress and to pass con- tinually under the observation of men, and in a warm climate like that of India, (20. 5.) K K the 128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel the men are constantly going about almost naked among the women. There is Robert Alexander, a promiscuous intercourse of persons of all characters, and no separation for the children, but they are exposed to all the Ucentiousness of a barrack life, and to 3d D ec. 1852. j^g^^ whatever may be the language of the soldiers. There is little or no com- fort in sickness to a family living in barracks ; a crying child is an annoyance to every one near it ; and the soldiers sleeping in the cots on each side of it, may be warned for duty in the morning. What women must endure living under every exposure to observation and remark, is destructive of modesty and deli- . cacy; and a barrack life does not afford respectable parents the opportunity of bringing up their children in the way they may wish. 1240. Chairman.] Do not the same evils exist in the case of the families of soldiers in England : , j j u • I only know, from my own observation, one barrack in England, and that is at Woolwich, where I saw that there are separate buildings for the married men. 1241. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Do you remember the ground stated when the objection was sent from the Supreme Government ? I have already quoted from memory the grounds stated in the Minutes of Council. 1242. One of the principal grounds was, that the parcherry system was con- trary to the system in the colonial service of Her Majesty 1 The objection made was, that the same system was not adopted in other colonies where Her Majesty's troops were located. 1243. You are aware that the system of parcherry has obtained, for a great number of years, in the garrison at Woolwich, for the wives of the Artillery ? I do not know how long ; but since I have been in England, on visiting Woolwich, an Artillery officer pointed out to me that the separate buildings that I saw, were the residences of the married men ; that is all that I know on the subject. 1244. With reference to the service in India of soldiers in Her Majesty's and the Honourable Company's services, are you of opinion that the limitation as to marriages in Her JVIajesty's service is quite applicable to that of the Company ? In Her Majesty's service there are reasons for the limitation of marriages, which do not hold with reference to the East India Company's service. The soldier in Her Majesty's service looks to the return of his regiment to England, and if he pleases, he may accompany it, or if his health fails him, he may return as an invaUd, and he need never consider his residence in India as permanent or for life, as the soldier in the East India Company's service almost necessarily must do. The soldier in the East India Company's service begins his service in the full vigour of his life ; he goes through it with all the passions of his manhood ; and he will either marry and have a legitimate family, or he may too probably leave to almost certain ultimate destitution a native illegitimate family. I fear that the substitution for a well-ordered parcherry will be the multiplication of brothels in the vicinities of barracks. I have data to show that moral conduct and good discipline prevail much more with married men in the East India Company's service than with unmarried ; that there is less crime and less sickness. 1245. Are there not sanitarium barracks in the Madras Presidency? On a small scale ; they were tried first on the Neilgherry Hills, where the experiment failed, as I think, for want of proper management. 1246. Lord Elphinstone.'] There was no barrack for the regiment ? No. 1247. Marquess of Tweeddale.} Are they not building one now? Yes ; near Bellary they built a temporary hospital for Europeans, which was found to be a very great benefit; it was built about the year 1847. Instead of marching the troops from Bellary when they were sick during the hot weather, which was very dangerous and inconvenient, they sent them up to a fine climate, at a short distance from the station. 1248. You ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 129 1248. You state that there is a great inconvenience in marching the troops Cdonel from a distant station to a sanitary station ? Robert Alexander. The only so-called sanitary stations are Poonamallee for Her Majesty's troops, ^ D^r~i8(;2 and St. Thomas's Mount, near Madras, for the Company's troops ; and to ' reach those points, the sick soldiers have to march, from Kamptee, for example, 700 miles ; from Hyderabad, about 400 miles ; from Trichinopoly, about 200 miles ; and from Bangalore, about 200 miles ; from Bellary, about 270 miles ; but near Bellary very lately, a temporary hospital was erected for the European troops of that station ; it was upon some hills in the neighbourhood, and it was found effectually to promote their recovery, and to save them from a long and distressing march. 1249. Lord Elphinstone.] What advantage did the soldiers get when they were removed to Poonamallee, which was 700 miles from Nagpore ? No advantage but the sea breezes occasionally, and change of air and scene. 1250. But is not Poonamallee inland r Yes, about 12 miles ; but still they felt something of the sea breeze. Latterly a hospital was also established at Tranquebar, for the troops at Trichinopoly. 1251 . Marquess of Tweeddalc] Why was the sanitarium which was established on the Neilgherry Hills discontinued? The first sanitarium on the hills for soldiers was near Koonoor. I do not know why it was discontinued, but 1 believe it was for want of sufficient disci- pUnary management to keep the men in order. 1252. It was not a station for a whole regiment ? No, only for a few men. 1253. Can you state whether barracks or hospitals could be built on the hills near the different stations in the Madras Presidency, without inconveniencing those who were sick, by marching them the long distance you have described to Poonamallee ? I have no doubt they might ; and I am aware that the ('ommander-in-Chief recommended that this should be done when he forwarded, in the year 1847 or 1848, the Sanitary Report sent in by the Medical Board to the Government, for transmission to the (/ourt of Directors. In many parts of India such spots might be found : in the Nagpore territory, for example, there are hills which I should say, from my own recollection, and from information that I received when in that part of the country, would afford a good sanitarium for Europeans in the hottest weather ; the hills are called the Putchmuree Hills. The experi- ment has, as I said before, been tried in the Soondoor Valley, on the Anamullee Hills, near Bellary. 1254. Lord Elphinstone.] Do you happen to know what the height of the Soondoor Station is above the level of the sea r I should think about or above the heiglit of the Mysore country generally. 1255. About 7,000 feet? Yes, probably. 1256. Marquess of Tweeddale.] It has been proved to be a good sanitarium? Yes ; but there were difficulties raised about the ground by the civil autho- rities. 1257. Chairman.] What were the objections raised by the civil authorities to the occupation ot the ground ? I cannot state them from my own knowledge. 1258. In your opinion, what were they ? I should prefer stating the fact, without stating opinion. 1259. Lord Colchester.] Did the civil authorities require the ground them- selves ? Not that I am aware of. It was on account of the Rajah or Zemindar that the objection was made. 1260. Marquess of Tweeddale.] What has been the effect of the soldiers' marriages upon the discipline and efficiency of the men ? I have here a memorandum, drawn up by a Field Officer of the Madras (20.5.) Fusileers. 130 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel Fusileers. The aggregate strength of the regiment for the years 1849, 1850 liobert Alexander, and 1851, was 3,136 men; during that period the Courts-martial on single men, whose aggregate strength was 2,596, were nine general Courts-martial, by ^__!!li_^' which, among other punishments, three men were sentenced to transportation. There were also 47 district Courts-martial, and 171 regimental Courts-martial upon the single men; while, during the same period, amongst 540 married men there were but nine district and nine regimental Courts-martial. During that period the single men were non-effective whilst undergoing sentences for 10,428 days; the married men were non-effective under the same circum- stances for 574 days. The proportion between them, therefore, is, that while the per-centage of Courts-martial on single men was 874, on the married men it was 2-40 ; and the time that they were non-effective when imprisoned, was as 9^ to |. Drunkenness and absence without leave are the two most prominent offences which have been committed. I go on to show how many men were defaulters during this period : of single men there were 855 cases of drunken- ness, 255 of absence without leave, and of miscellaneous offences 151 ; of the married men there were 37 cases of drunkenness, 2 of absence without leave, and 10 miscellaneous offences. The ratios are, for drunkenness, as 32"93 to 6'85 ; absence without leave, 9'82 to "37 ; and miscellaneous offences, as 5"31 to 1"66, The difference as regards efficiency and sickness between the married and the unmarried men is, that the married men were 3,072 days in hospital, and the unmarried were 64,785 days in hospital ; the number of admissions of married men to the hospital was 352, and of unmarried men 4,154. During that period there died, excluding cholera cases, 5 married men and 38 single men,. There were sent on sick certificate 4 married men and 54 unmarried men. During the period there were venereal cases admitted to the hospital, 1,063 single men ; and the number of da5'S they passed in hospital were 25,702, which equalled the withdrawal of 24 men from duty daily for three years. 1261. What means are there provided for the female children of European soldiers in India r The only means that I know of providing for the female children is by their marriages with the soldiers or persons attached to the army, and; perhaps, occasionally with any of the tradesmen about the cantonments. 1262. Lord Elphinstone.} Do they take service with the officers' wives ? They will not do so ; and generally they are unqualified for such service. For orphans there is a female asylum which provides a training, but is so indifferently managed, that it is of very little practical use to them in after life, as far as affording them the means of energetically providing for themselves goes. The sons of the soldiers may enter, if qualified by education, the Medical Subordinate Department ; they may enlist, or they may get employment as writers, perhaps ; but, generally, I should say there would be very great difficulty in providing for the sons of the European soldiery in India ; so much so, that it would be very advisable if any means could be devised of drawing off the pensioners and their families to some of our milder colonies, of Australia, New Zealand, or the Cape. 1263. Did not some of the young people in the male and female asylums lately go to Australia ? Some from the male asylum went, and did well. I do not know whether any from the female asylum went. 1264. Marquess of Tweeddak.] In fact, there is great encouragement to in- crease the number of children among the European soldiers, but there is no provision for them after the death of the parent ? None, except the orphan allowance, very liberally made by the Government, which lasts but for a certain time ; there is no means of permanent provision for them. 1265. Would it not be a great advantage if, in order to prevent the immorality which goes on among the female children, there was some means devised to remove them from that country to some other country where they might obtain employment ? ■ Lately the marriages in the Company's regiments have been limited, as in Her . Majesty s service, to 12 per cent. 1 am not aware that immoraUty prevails amongst ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 131 amongst the wives and daughters of the European soldiery at present, though Colonel there are bad, and somei infamously bad characters among them ; but, as one of R»b'r* Alexander. the effects of the limitation upon marriage, the widows of those who die, and j -^ q^„ the daughters of all, must remain without any adequate provision, it is a very "^ ' serious thing to contemplate what the result may too probably be ; and I should think it would be a very great advantage if the pensioners and their families could be induced to settle in our colonies, where their families would be an advantage to and not a burthen upon them ; they would also be in a climate that would probably suit persons so long accustomed to the heat of India. 1266. Lord Elphinstone.] Do you think many pensioners would willingly go to the Australian colonies ? I think they would, if there was a good inducement held out to them to go. 1267. Chairman.'] Are there many European pensioners in India ? A great many ; from the Company's service comparatively few return to England. 1268. Lord Elphimtone.'] Are they available for garrison duties? Not the pensioners ; they are not under military control ; but the veterans in the Company's service are available for military duty ; they take garrison duty at Fort St. George ; and, except the garrison there, a few at Vizagapatam are the only European soldiers on the coast between Cape Comorin and Calcutta. 1269. Marquess of Tweeddale.'] How are the Native troops provided with' quarters ? When a Native regiment arrives at a station, the Sepoy receives two rupees, and the superior grades proportionate sums, to provide themselves with huts or houses, the Government only giving them the ground upon which the huts are to be built. When regiments are relieved, the incoming regiment takes the huts of the outgoing regiment on a valuation made by the Native officers of both corps ; but if the Native regiment marches away without being relieved, the loss of the huts falls upon the men. 1270. Lord Eiphinstone.] That loss is not covered by the sum allowed by the Government ? Certainly not ; and the Native officers and men have sometimes to buy or build huts at one station, while they have others unsold at the place they have left ; the Sepoys are also sent upon permanent detached duties, on which no provision is made that they shall have tents, or be hutted ; they have no addi- tional allowance for that ; and as long as they remain at a station, whatever may be the number of the detached or outpost duties, they do not get more than the 2 rupees which are given them upon their first arrival. 1271. In the event of a hurricane blowing their huts down, which has, perhaps, happened during your experience, do the Government give them any assistance ? No ; I remember one occasion in which the huts of a Native regiment were destroyed twice ; the men lost their little properties and the clothes and jewels of their wives ; an advance was made by the Government of a few thousand rupees to relieve the immediate distress, and, ultimately, on the recommendation of the Commander-in-Chief, this money was not recovered ; but at first it was only granted to them as a loan, 'vvhich was to be repaid. 1272. Is this, in your opinion, the best system, or is it capable of being improved ? I think that a larger allowance should be made, or that permanent huts might be built, under a proper arrangement, to be entirely kept in repair by the Government. Certainly, when the men lose their huts, by being removed from a station not occupied by a reheving regiment, it seems but just that some com- pensation should be made for the loss. 1 273. Lord Eiphinstone.] Would the men like the huts built by Government as much as the huts which they put up themselves ? If in the building of the huts sufficient consideration was shown to their feelings, they would, I think, like the huts that were built as much as those that they themselves put up ; in the case of a Mussulman, for example, you must not have an open place where persons can look in upon his women, but there must be privacy. If I were holding office in India, and I were ordered to report upon (20. 5.) L L the 132 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKE!! BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel the subject, before I made a report, I should like to consult the Native ofiicers, Robert Alexander. ^^ fin^ ^hat was the feeling of the Natives about it. 3d Dec. 1852. 1274. Marquess of Tweeddale.] Is there not a system in the Bombay Presi- dency of the Government building huts for the Sepoys ? I am not sufficiently acquainted with the Bombay system to> answer the question. 1275. What arrangements are made regarding their food in garrison, in the field, and on foreign service ? The Sepoy, in garrison, purchases his food as he pleases ; but at Hyderabad and at Kamptee, and in the Saugur States, if the price of third-class rice exceeds a certain amount, he then receives compensation at the rate of for two seers of rice a day, which I have alluded to before in my evidence. At stations within the Madras territories, they get a lower rate of compensation at the rate of one seer of rice daily for each man. To every regiment there is attached a bazaar, from which he purchases supplies ; and in the case of forces in the field, there is a general bazaar, to which he has access. On foreign service he has rations ; larger rations are supplied on board ship, according to a scale laid down, and he gets shore rations on land, which are somewhat less. 1276. Are those capable of improvement? I think that the improvements lately made during the Chinese war were very liberal, and that the rations are mow on a very good scale indeed. 1277. How is the Indian armv clothed ? The patterns of dress are precisely the same as in the European army ; the Sepoy wears a jacket very much like what the soldier used to wear a few years ago, with short tails ; the Native officers' dress very nearly corresponds with that of the European officers ; but the Cavalry and Horse Artillery wear the Hussar jacket, and the Artillery wear the blue coatee, such as used to be worn formerly in the Royal Artillery, with short tails ; the head-dress is what is called a turban, but has none of the advantages of that really useful head-dress. 1278. Is that a convenient dress ? The dress is very inconvenient ; their own Native costume, particularly for the Cavalry, would be far better ; and if the Native costume was adapted, by uni- formity, to military purposes, the soldier would look as well in rank, and be far more efficiently clothed for service than he is in the straitened European dress ; the sandals are very inconvenient. When the troops went to China, shoes and stockings were issued to them gratuitously ; the shoe is a great improvement upon the sandal. 1279. Did the men object to wear the shoe? There was not the least objection made to it when they went to China, nor could they have done without shoes in the winter and hard frosts. 1280. Did they object to wear them when they returned ? No; they were allowed, as a mark of distinction, to wear them, and, except in one regiment, do so to this day. 1281. Lord Elphimtone.'] Would they not dislike any change in their head- dress ? Anything that they thought had the character of a hat, they would object to ; as long as what they wear has the appearance of a turban, they have no valid objection to it. 1282. Lord Colchester.] Do the Madras Infantry wear a turban? It is something like a turban ; it has a round top. 1283. Is there a shawl round it? No ; they are made of basket-work, with a round top, and there is a little thing at the top which they call the kutorah, the origin of which was, when the Cavalry was transferred from the Nabob of Arcot to our service, the Colonel who com- manded made them carry their drinking pots on the top of their turbans. 1284. Marquess of Tweeddale.] What is their reason for objecting to wear anything in the character of a hat ? It marks the difference between the Mussulman and the Christian. 1285. Is ON THE GOVERNMENT OV INDIAN TEKHITORIES, 133 1285. Is not the skin of a cow or a bullock objectionable in the eyes of a Colonel Hindoo ? Rolert Alexander. Certainly ; and yet they wear belts, and ride on European saddles. ^ DeT'iS'ja 1286. Chairman^ Are not the clothes generally made in England? The cloth is sent out from England ; the clothes are made at Madras, by the parties who contract to make up army clothing. 1287. Marquess of Tweeddale.'] Is the system susceptible of improvement? Yes, very greatly, by assimilating the dress to the Native dress : what is called the Lascar jacket, which comes from the neck well over the loins, might be made a very becoming and useful dress for the Infantry ; and if both the dress and organization of the Cavalry approached more towards that of the Irregular Cavalry, they would be far more efficient, and the men better pleased. Sepoys would be much better without shoulder-knots, wings, lace and pipeclay, which are expensive to them, often tawdry, and never useful. 1288. How are they armed? Precisely as the European soldier is armed ; the Sepoy carries the same sized musket and similar accoutrements as the soldier in Her Majesty's Grenadier Guards, or in any regiment in the line : the average weight of an Infantry man may be taken at from lOOlbs. to 120 lbs., and he has to carry about 481bs. weight of musket and accoutrements. 1289. Chairman.] What is the weight of the musket? "With the bayonet it is lUlbs. ; the weight of the knapsack is about 12 lbs. ; his accoutrements, with 12 rounds of ammunition, is 6 lbs; but in field service he would carry 60 rounds, which would be about 6 lbs. ''self. 1290. Does the Native soldier always carry his knapsack ? Yes. 1291. But the European soldier does not r ■ No ; altogether, including the clothes and accoutrements, the Natives carry from 471bs. to 49 lbs. ; you may take their own weight at from lOOlbs. to 1201bs., or 1251bs., and it is extraordinary the marches that they make, and the powers of endurance they exhibit. 1292. What improvements could be made in these accoutrements ? Some improvements have lately been made by order of the Court of Directors, which the Commander-in-Chief at Madras recommended for years before he could obtain permission to carry out : they now equip the men with single shoulder and waist belts, instead of cross belts. As a member of a Board of Officers, to which I have had the honour to be appointed, I am aware that a musket is now prepared which will only weigh 9ilbs. with the bayonet. 1293. Marquess of Tweeddale.] With the same bore as the muskets which the European soldiers carry ? This musket is for the European soldiers, but will, of course, be given to the Sepoys, and reheve them as well as the Europeans ; hitherto the same weapon has been put into the hands of men whose standard height is 5 feet 5, many of whom are below standard, and but few more than 5 feet 6, as that with which Her Majesty's Grenadier Guards are armed here; the musket should certainly be adapted to the size of the men. 1294. Lord Elphinstone.] There would be no objection to having stocks of different lengths, any more than having men of different heights ? That is the opinion of some General Officers of high rank and very great experience. 1295. Marquess of Tweeddale.'} What contracts are held by officers in the army? In the Madras army there are two contracts ; the saddle contract held by the officers cou.manding the Cavalry regiments, and the troop or line article contract held by the officers commanding troops. Veterinary Surgeons have contracts for supplying native medicines for horses. 1296. Is that found to be beneficial ? I do not think it is possible to have any contracts conducted better than the (20. S.) saddle 134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Colonel saddle and the trooo contracts are in the Madras army : the checks upon abuses Robert Alexander, are good and eflectual ; but, as a principle, I think all contracts held by military officers, relating to their own duties, are bad : the officers of the Madras army 3 ec. 1852. have sometimes felt that they ought to enjoy the privilege -which is granted in ~~ Bengal, of holding contracts for the repair of arms, which is a source of emolu- ment : I think that the system is had, and one that the interest of the public service requires should never be introduced among us. 1297. Chairman.] Is the allowance that is made, an allowance of so much for keeping the arms in repair ? Yes ; the Madras Government attaches artificers to every regiment ; those men repair the arms very efficiently : in Bengal the Government give the officers so much on contract, and they give a portion to the Quartermaster, or to some person to keep up the repairs of arms, the balance being the officers' profit. No establishment can be so good and efficient as one paid, mustered and provided by Government, and subject to the articles of war, which may become a point of great consequence in field service, where dependence upon private engagement may place the interests of the service in a pecarious state. 1298. Is there not this difiference, that in England the allowance for the repair of arms is given to the Captains of companies, under the supervision of the Colonel, and is not that sufficient ? In this country you have an armourer, serjeant and artificers attached to each regiment, I beUeve, and they are persons you have under efiectual control in the field or elsewhere. 1299. The Captain is responsible for the arras under the ^control of the Colonel, and he is looked after by the Colonel? Yes ; but if you have only a private establishment in the field, any individual of it may say that he does not choose to go any further, or incur danger and hardship. 1300. Lord Elphinstone.] Formerly, were there not a great many more con- tracts in the Madras army than there are in the present day ? Yes. 1301. And you think that those contracts have been done away with to the great advantage of the service ? Yes, and though it has been attended with great loss to individuals. 1302. The tent contract was one that was done away with ? Yes, but that was many years ago. The Witness is directed to vathdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next* One o'clock. 5. (Private and Confidential.) Select Committee on the Governmenl^ of Indian Territories. Appendix D, (Referred to in the Evidence of David Hill, Esquire, Question 2258.) To the GovernoR-Genehal In Council. Para. 1. In compliance with our desire, you have transmitted with your Judicial Letter Appendix D. of the 9th July (No. 14) 1852, the Report of the Bengal Sudder Court, on the working of — the new Rules of Practice for the settlement of the issues in cases appealed to that Court. 2. We observe that the majority of the Judges are of opinion that those Rules have been acted upon without difficulty. In that opinion, however, Mr. Jackson does not entirely concur ; in particular, he apprehends that the new Rules have led to an increased admission of technical pleas, not affecting the real merits of the question in dispute ; and we find that on a subsequent occasion (26th August 1862) he is inclined to attribute the increased number of Reversals by the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut in Appeals from the Lower Courts to the same cause, pointing out that in 1848 the Affirmations had been to the Reversals in the proportion of four to three ; whereas in 1851 they were in that of one to two. 3. This, as you cannot but be aware, is a point to which the attention of the Legislature, and of the highest judicial authorities in this country, has recently been directed, and regarding which extensive improvements are in the course of being introduced. In the state of society in India, and with reference to the agency available for the administration of justice, it is obvious that a cheap, simple and expeditious system of judicature is especially necessary in that country. We are very desirous that the best means of eifecting this object should engage your early and deliberate consideration. 4. The observance of prescribed forms and technical rules is highly important, in order that the course of procedure may be definite and regular, as well as the law itself; but such forms and rules are only means towards an end, and care must be taken that they are not BO scrupulously attended to as to defeat the end, which is substantial justice. In Courts of Original Jurisdiction, the regular course of procedure may in general be strictly enforced, as it is specially adapted to promote the discovery of truth, and is not then the occasion either of expense or of delay ; any neglect in this respect, when it falls under the notice of a higher tribunal, ought to be pointed out as a failure of duty calling for animadversion. But the case is otherwise in Courts of Appeal, and most of all in the Appellate Court in the last resort. The deviation from a prescribed form or technical rule in an early stage of the trial seldom admits of being rectified on appeal, except by quashing the whole course of previous pro- ceedings. Besides the expense and delay thus inflicted upon the parties, it must frequently happen, from the death or absence of witnesses, or from the dexterous frauds of dishonest suitors, that the real merits of the case are less easy to be ascertained on the second trial than they were on the first. 5. In looking into the Reports of recent decisions by the Sudder Courts of the several Presidencies, we have been struck with the large proportion of cases, not only reversed, but remanded for trial de novo ; this- result has been arrived at even after a second appeal to the Sudder Court, and in many instances when the amount at issue falls far short of the costs to be incurred : it generally originates in some technical defect or error. For the reasons which we have explained, we are of opinion that a decision which is substantially right ought not, on appeal, to be disturbed on technical grounds. This reasonable mode of administering justice would leave it open to the Appellate Court to point out whatever errors of procedure the Court of Original Jurisdiction may have fallen into, and to lay down Rules for future guidance ; while it would at the same time save suitors from the hardship of being visited with a heavy penalty for the mistakes and oversights of the tribunals to which the law obliges them to resort for justice. 6. We desire that the Rules of Procedure in the various Courts, Original and Appellate, may be carefully revised, with the view of simplifying the administration of justice, and thereby rendering it less expensive and less dilatory, and of converting it, as far as possible, into the practical means of redressing wrongs, instead of being, as it is liable to become, a mere exercise of controversial skill. You will have to consider whether the object will be best attained by the appointment of a Special Commission for the purpose, by referring it to the Sudder Courts at the several Presidencies, or by such other mode as may appear to you advisable ; but we desire particularly to impress upon you that no time should be lost in dealing with the subject, which appears to us one of the greatest importance. (20. Apf.) 7. (Private and Confidential.) Select Committee on the Government of Indian Territories. EVIDENCE OF James Cosmo Melvill, Esquire - - - - - p. 145 Captain Frederick Thomas Foweil - - - - p. \54i 1st March 1853. [Great inconvenience having arisen from the Publication of Minutes of Evidence taken Iiefore Committees, and of Papers, &c. laid before thenij it is particularly requested, that Peers receiving such Minutes and Papers will be careful that they are confined to the object for which they are printed, the special use of the Lords appointed on such Committees,] (20. 1.) ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 145 Bie Martis, V Martii 1853. LORDS PRESENT: The Lord President. Marquess of Salisbury. Earl Grahame. Earl of Harrowby. Earl of Ellenborough. Viscount Canning. Lord Elphinstone. Lord Colchester. Lord Wharncliffe. Lord Wynford. Lord Glenelg. Lord Monteagle of Brandon. Lord Broughton. THE LORD PRESIDENT in the Chair. Evidence on the Government of Indian Territories. JAMES COSMO MELVILL, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows 1396. Chairman.] A statement of the total expenditure in each year from j. c. Mehill, Esq. 1834-35 to 1849-50 on account of the Indian Navy, was handed in by you to this Committee ? ^^^ ^^"^'^ ' ^53- Yes; the account is dated in June 1852. 1397. Will you be so good as to state what was the origin of the Indian Navy for which that expenditure is now incurred ? The force formerly denominated the " Bombay Marine," and now denominated the " Indian Navy," has existed as long almost as the East India Company itself. In the early efforts of the Company, in the 17th century, to establish trade in India, it was found necessary to arm their commercial ships as a means of defence against the Dutch and Portuguese, Native States, and piratical hordes. In 1612 a separate force was established, consisting of gun-boats, which were used for direct protection, and for convoy ; in 1614 this force, united with the Naval force then belonging to the Mogul, sustained a sanguinary and successful contest with the Portuguese ; and from this time the Bombay Marine may be said to have been established : various alterations have from time to time been made in it, and I think it will be found, upon inquiry from competent witnesses, that it is now in a more efficient state than it ever was. 1398. Has it always been under martial law ? At a very early period of the existence of the Company they received a Charter from the Crown, authorizing them to maintain fleets, and to exercise martial law. In process of time questions arose affecting the exercise of such power under that authority, and in 1807 a seaman having deserted from the Bombay Marine, when he claimed his pay, it was refused to him, upon the ground of his desertion. Ho sued the Company in tlie Recorder's Court, at Bombay, when the Recorder, the late Sir James Mackintosh, held, that the power of martial law, granted by the Charter, was too general ; and consequently the man recovered his wages : from that time various questions arose ; this construction of the law was sanctioned by other decisions in similar cases, and also on points affecting impressment ; seamen deserted almost at pleasure ; discipline was most imperfect. Soldiers employed as marines were subject to the Army Mutiny Act, whilst the seamen were exempted, and the officers of ships commissioned by the Company had no recognized rank, either with the Company's Army, or with the officers of the Royal Navy. In 1827 efforts were made to remedy this state of things : an Act of Parliament was passed, applying the Company's new Mutiny Act to the Bombay (20. 7.) P p Marine, 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. C. Melvill, Esq. Marine, under the designation of a Marine Corps, into which all the officers were embodied, and in which the Superintendent held the commission of a Major- ist March 1853. gg^eral. It was a condition of this arrangement, that the office of Superintendent should be filled by a Captain of the Royal Navy, it being considered important by the naval authorities in this country that there should be a resident authority upon the spot, who was by previous experience conversant with the system of martial law. A warrant was at the same time issued, giving to the officers of the Bombay Marine relative rank with the officers of the Royal NaAy, upon the condition that the officers of each grade of the Company's Marine should rank below all officers of the same grade in the Royal Navy. 1399. Would a Lieutenant in the Queen's service be under the orders of a Captain in the Bombay force ? He would. The arrangement for applying the Army Mutiny Act to the Indian Navy proved very unsatisfactory ; it was especially objectionable in the consti- tution of courts-martial ; and in 1840 an effectual remedy was applied ; an Act was passed, the 3d & 4th of Victoria, c. 37, authorizing the Legislative Council of India to frame a naval code for the government of the Indian Navy. This was done, tlie code having been previously approved of and confirmed by the home authorities ; and it is under that arrangement that the corps is now governed. 1400. Lord Monteagle of Brandon.] Is that a permanent Act ? It is. 1401. Chairman. '\ When were steamers introduced into the Bombay force? In 1837 it was determined gradually to convert the force into a steam navy. 1402. Earl of Elknborough.'\ Was not the " Diana," which was employed in the Burmese war, a Company's steamer ? Yes ; she was a steamer stationed in Bengal. Before it was determined to con- vert the Bombay Marine into a steam navy, there had been one or two steamers belonging to the Company in India. The " Hugh Lindsay " was one, and was attached to the Bombay Marine. 1403. Chairman.'] Can you state what are the principal duties on which the • Bombay force is employed ? The duties have been defined by the Court of Directors to be, war service whenever required, the transport of troops and stores, the occupation and naviga- tion of the Indus, the suppression of piracy, surveying, and the conveyance of the mails between Bombay, Aden and Suez. 1404. With regard to transport, is it never the custom in India to contract for vessels to transport troops and stores ? Occasionally vessels have been hired for the purpose of conveying troops. 1405. Lord Broughton.] The naval force is not now called the Bombay Marine, but the Indian Navy ? The designation was changed in the year 1828 from " Bombay Marine " to " Indian Navy." 1 406. Chairman.'] What are the duties of the Indian Navy with respect to the navigation of the Indus ? The vessels on the Indus are chiefly employed in the transport of troops and stores. There is an officer now waiting to be examined before the Committee, who superintended that department of the service for some years. 1407. Lord Colchester,] Must not the vessels employed upon that service be a different description from the others ? Yes ; they are small iron steamers, of light draught of water, not drawing above 2| or 3 feet. * 1408. Was not the original object of establishing the Bombay Marine rather to protect the trade in the Persian Gulf than any thing else } That was one great object. 1 409. And it consisted of small armed brigs ? Yes ; gun-brigs principally. 1410. Marquess of Salisbury.] What is the largest class of ships now? There ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 147 There are three of 1,400 tons each, and 500 horse-power. The " Moozuffer " J. C. Mehill, Esq. is 1,440 tons. 141 1. Carrying how many guns ? She carries nine guns. 1412. What service is she employed on ? She is employed at present in the Burmese war. The two other large steam frigates are the " Freerooz" and the " Ajdaha." 1413. Lord Wharncliffe.] And the " Acbar"? The " Acbar" is 1,143 tons. 1414. Lord Montealge of Brandon.] In what portion of the mail-packet service are the vessels of the East India Company employed ? Four of them are generally considered available for that service. 1415. Will you be so good as to state what portion of the mails are conveyed by those vessels ? Between Bombay, Aden and Suez the mail is conveyed once a month, and between Bombay and Aden there is a second monthly communication. 1416. Have not difficulties been felt with respect to the general postal commu- nications of India by steamers, in consequence of a portion of that service being taken up by the Indian Navy ? The Peninsular and Oriental Company have been anxious to get the whole ; but I am not aware that their not having obtained the whole has caused any inconvenience to the public. 1417. Has there been no inconvenience felt with respect to the great lines of communication, by reason of the service ceasing to be continuous at a certain portion of the line, and being there taken up by another and independent authority? It only ceases to be continuous in the bi-monthly communication between Bombay and Aden ; and it is only within the last few months that an arrange- ment has been made for a second communication between Calcutta and England. 1418. Earl oi Ellenborough.'] Have not the Company's vessels been frequently driven back upon the voyage from Bombay to Aden ? Not frequently. There was a case last year in which the " Victoria " was driven back during the monsoon. 1419. Lord Monteagh of Brandon.] Do you consider that these postal services are in themselves necessary with a view to the maintenance of tlie Indian Navy, so as to make it a sufficient motive to continue those postal services in the possession of the Indian Navy, rather than to execute them by a general system of contract? The Indian Navy is a very small service, and ordinarily, in times of peace, there is perhaps scarcely sufficient scope for their employment ; and it has been thought to be beneficial for the Indian Navy that they should have that regular means of employment. 1 420. Have there not been complaints of inconveniences felt by reason of this mixed sort of service, partly through contract and partly through the service of the Indian Navy ? There have been some complaints on the part of passengers ; but I am not aware that they have taken any definite form ; inquiry on this point was made by a Committee of the House of Commons two or three years ago, when it was not, 1 think, apparent that there had been any distinct ground of complaint. 1421. liord Elphinstone.'\ Are you not aware that the service is very unpopular with the officers of the Indian Navy } \ t was unpopular some years ago ; but I think, if the Committee will ask a professional witness, who is acquainted with the Indian Navy, and with the feel- ing of the officers, he will give them satisfactory evidence upon that point. 1422. Earl of Ellenborough.] If it is considered convenient to employ some of the ships of the Indian Navy during peace in the transport of mails, what is done with the mails when those vessels are taken off for war service ; how are the mails carried then ? There is no doubt that whenever war arises, inconvenience must be the conse- quence, and that perhaps would be the case even if it were Ly private contract (20. 7.) Q Q that istMarch 1853^ 148 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. C. Melvill, Esq. 1st March 1853, that the mails were conveyed ; it is impossible to imagine a state of war without inconvenience resulting from it. 1423. If the mail service were performed by vessels not intended for war, that inconvenience would not arise 1 I can venture to say that during the Chinese war there was no interruption whatever in the transport of the mails, although there was a large demand made upon the Indian Navy for service during that war. 1424. Lord Monteagle of Brandon.] Have you any doubt that for the mail postal service one continuous contract, carried on by one single authority, must, from the nature of things, be infinitely more desirable, with a view both as to cheapness, regularity and expedition, than the carrying on the same service under a divided authority ? It might be more advantageous in some respects ; but there are other grounds upon which the mail communication has been partially left in the hands of the Indian Navy ; it has been thought desirable, from motives of policy, that the flag of the Company, as the rulers of India, should be seen constantly in the Red Sea and in Egypt. 1425. Marquess of Salisbury.] What is the strength of the establishment of seamen ? There are 3,866, of whom 1,789 are Europeans, and 2,077 natives. 1426. Earl of EUenborough.] You are aware that the crews are entirely changed in time of war? The number of Europeans is increased. 1427. The ships are manned by natives during peace ? In great measure, though I believe that the number of Europeans has lately been increased in our steamers even during peace. 1428. Is not it considered a measure of economy to get rid of Europeans, and to take natives in time of peace ? The employment of natives is more economical. 1429. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Are there any Europeans on board except the ofiicers ? Many. 1430. Is the establishment of officers the same as in the Royal Navy? Very nearly : there is a statement before the Committee, from which it will appear that we are not manned as fully as ships in the Royal Navy. 1431. Is there any difFerence in the pay of the officers of the Royal Navy and of the Indian Navy ? I do not think there is much difference, the officers of the Royal Navy havino- an allowance of batta from the Indian authorities when they are employed within certain limits. 1432. Is the pay of the European seamen higher in the Companv's service than in the Royal Navy ? The pay of the European seamen is about 21. a month, with provisions. 1433. Has any estimate been made out of the expenditure of the Indian Navy? The statement laid before the Committee shows the gross expense. 1434. Is there any estimate ofi the number of men required, or of the total expenditure, applying simply to the wages of officers and men ? A statement has been laid before the Committee of the total expenditure in each year from 1834 to 1850, in India and in England, on account of the Indian Navy, including the cost of bmlding and repairs, the charges on account of ships and vessels afloat, engaged in the conveyance of mails and otherwise and the charges for services ashore and afloat. ' ,dn^- EarUf^^^^frf"^*,^ With regard *« the comparative rates of pay in the Queens Navy and m the Indian Navy, the pay varies according to the rate of he ship Now, IS not a first-rate in the Queen's Navy a totally different ship from a first-rate in the Indian Navy ? ^ amerent snip I do not think the terms " first-rate" and " second-rate " in the Indian Navy have ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 149 have any analogy to similar terms in the Koyal Navy ; they were arbitrary terms, /. C. Melvill, Esq. fixed in reference to allowances of pay. 1436. Has the term " first-rate" reference to the size of the vessel, or to the ^^^^^^[^^53. seniority of the Captain ? I think rather to the allowances of the Captain. 1437. Is there not a considerable difference in the pay of the Captain according to the rate of the ship ? The Captain of a first-rate in India gets 900 rupees a month, and the Captain of a second-rate gets 800 ; the Commander of a second-rate gets 700, and the Com- mander of a third-rate 600. 1438. Lord Colchester. "] Can you state the number of men borne in a first-class ship ? • About 80 in the " Moozuffer," the largest frigate. 1439. Marquess of Salisbury.] Can you state what is the cost of the 3,000 sea- men that are at present engaged in service in the Indian Navy ? I have not the total ; I can tell you what the wages of a seaman are ; an able seaman gets 20 rupees a month. 1440. Can you give us the cost of the allowances? . No ; I could give you the total cost of the whole body of the seamen. 1441. Can you give the cost of one individual? I can only tell you what his wages are ; his allowances only consist of provisions 1442. What is the cost of the provisions ? That is included in the stores. There would be some difficulty in making out a statement of the cost, because the provisions are partly salt provisions, sent from England, and partly obtained by purchases made in India. 1443. Lord IV/iarncliffe.] Could it be made out in any ofince in the India House ? Possibly it might ; if not, it could be made out in India. 1444. Chairman.] Is the expenditure for the Indian Navy under the control of the Home Government, or under the control of the Indian Government? It is audited at Bombay. 1445. Lord Colchester.'] You say the pay is about 2 L a month ; are the men allowed pensions for w ounds or for long service ? Yes ; there is a system of pensioning analogous to the advantages given to the Army by Lord Clive's Fund. 1446. Does that include both wounds and long service ? Yes. 1447. Earl of Ellenboroiigh.] But is it not the fact that the seamen are rarely engaged permanently ; are they not always dismissed upon the occurrence of peace ? Many of them have remained a long time in the service. It is the practice of the East India Company to engage boys from the Marine Society, who are apprenticed for seven years ; and in many cases they remain after the expiration of the term of their servitude. 1448. Lord fVharncliffe.] There appear to be some vessels, the " Pluto" and the " Phlegethon," and others, which are not included in the list of Bombay Marine, but which belong to a Naval Establishment at Calcutta : will you describe the nature and extent of that establishment? There are a considerable number of vessels employed in Bengal ; they are officered and manned under arrangements made by the Bengal Government, the oflScers being selected by them from persons found in India, and they are not under martial law. 1449. Is there a dock-yard at Calcutta? Not applicable to steamers of large size. 1450. Earl of Ellenhorough.] Is there not a small one where they can repair ships? There is a small dock-yard at Kiddepore. 1451. Chairman.] What reason is there for those two naval establishments being separate, and under different regulations ? That has been the result of accident. (20. 7.) 1425. Lord 150 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J, C. MehiU, Esq. 1452. Lord Wharncliffe.] Can you state what the extent of the naval establish- ,, — r o ment at Calcutta is? _ , „ ^. 1st March 1853. jijgj.g ^^g jjij^e steamers-the " Tenasserim," the " Enterprise," the Fire Queen," the " Nemesis," the " Phlegethon," the " Proserpine," the " Pluto," the " Mahamuddy',' and the " Hooghly." 1453. Earl of Ellenhorough.] What was the arrangement with those Calcutta steamers that served in the China war ? They had letters of marque from the naval Commander-in-chief. 1454. Chairman.] Were they under martial law ? Only in that way. 1455. Lord Wharncliffe.'] The Act of 3d & 4th Victoria applies solely to that which was called the Bombay Marine ? Yes. 1456. Are those vessels officered from the Indian Navy? No, they have no connexion with the Indian Navy. 1457. Is the Calcutta service considered a separate naval service ? It is a separate naval service. 1458. Is it a permanent naval service ? Yes. 1459. Do the officers remain receiving pay as naval officers during peace ? Yes. 1460. Lord Elphinstone.] Where they are not employed ? They are generally employed. 1461. Chairman.] Do they answer the same purposes as the Bombay Navy r I think so ; they are now employed in the Burmese war ; they went to China, and they check piracy in the Straits. 1462. Are they employed in surveying? I think when surveys have been required in Bengal, they have been generally made by officers of the Indian Navy. 1463. Lord Elphinstone^ Do the officers of the Calcutta Marine receive the same pay as the Indian Navy? No ; their pay is differently regulated ; it is a lower rate of pay. If the Com- mittee would be pleased to ,call for such a statement of the Bengal Service as they have been furnished with for the Bombay, it might be readily given, and it would afford all the information required. 1464. Lord Wharncliffe.] Are those steamers which you have named as beloEg- ing to the Calcutta Marine, steamers of a large size ? The largest of them is the " Tenasserim," of 76O tons and 220 horse-power. The " Nemesis" is the vessel that performed such good service in China, under Captain Hall. The " Nemesis" and " Phlegethon," " Proserpine," and « Pluto," are all iron vessels ; they were built in this country, and sent out to India, and immediately diverted to the service of the China war. 1465. Earl of Ellenhorough.] Were they not sent out for that purpose ? Their destination was changed for that purpose. 1466. Lord Colchester.] Are the officers of the Bengal Marine under martial law r Not except during war, and then under authority from the Naval Commander- in-chief. 1467. Chairman.] Have the officers in this service received any honorary rewards ? No ; the officers of tlie Indian Navy have been declared to be eligible for the honours of the Bath, and certain officers have been recommended for that distinc- tion ; but they have not yet succeeded in obtaining it. 1468. Earl o{ Ellenhorough.] Was not Captain Hall an instance ? , Captain Hall was an officer of the Royal Navy, and was selected by the East India Company to command the " Nemesis," he having permission from the Lords of the Admiralty to accept that command. 1469. Can ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 151 1469. Was that a solitary instance ? j. c. Mehill, Esq. The " Pluto" was, I believe, commanded by an officer of the Royal Navy, as was also the " Phlegethon " and the " Proserpine." ^*' ^"^'^'^ ' ^53- 1470. Was not there a case in which the Commodore of the Indian Navy, residing at Calcutta, was knighted ? Yes, there was, but he was acting in a civil capacity. 1471. Chairman.] Have any steps been taken by the Government to obviate the anomaly of having two different services under different regulations, and with different rates of expenditure ? It has been repeatedly suggested from home that those vessels should form part of the Indian Navy : no arrangement of that kind has yet been deemed prac- ticable ; but Lord Dalhousie is considering a proposition of the Superintendent of Marine in Bengal, that the Bengal service should be incorporated with the Bombay ; and he only postpones expressing a final opinion upon it pending the operations in Burma. 1472. Has any larger proposition ever been considered by the Government, whether, with regard to the mail service and the transports, those could be done by contract with private companies, or with individuals ; and whether, with regard to the war services and the surveys, those could be entrusted to the Queen's ships, under the pay of the East India Company ? There have been occasional suggestions, that the service should be performed by the Royal Navy, but they have never assumed a practical form. 1473. Do you see any objection to such a course? I do not see how the Royal Navy could perform the services that appertain to the Indian Navy, unless, indeed, it was a purely local corps, and then the advan- tage would seem to be questionable. 1474. Earl of Ellenborough.'] What is the difference between the service per- formed in the Irrawaddy by one of Her Majesty's steamers and that performed by a steamer of the Indian Navy ? In cases of war I can see no difference. 1475. In time of peace, supposing the Navy to be the Queen's Navy, and the Government of India sent a request to the Admiralty that certain vessels might be sent out for their use, the Government of India defraying the expense, would not those vessels then be under the direction of the Indian Government, in the same way in which the vessels of the Indian Navy are now under their direction ? They would be employed as transports. 1476. They would be employed exactly as the Indian Government would employ their own vessels, for whatever purpose they pleased ? But then, if the Royal Navy were to do the whole work of the Indian Navy, and the Indian Navy to be abolished, the question would immediately arise. What is to become of the navigation of the Indus ? There must be a separate establish- ment for that. 1477. Lord Monteagle of Brandon.] Does it appear to you that there would be any difficulty in relieving the East India Company from that portion of the ser- vice which is connected with the mails, and carrying that on by contract, as the greater part of the oriental communication are now carried on ? If ever that is done, I hope care will be taken to guard against monopoly. 1478. That is another question ; but do you see that there would be any diffi- culty resulting from performing that part of the service in the ordinary way in which the greater part of the packet service is performed ? There can be no difficulty in conveying mails by contract. 1479. Earl oi Ellenborough.] The Captain of one of the largest ships in the Indian Navy having 90 /. a month, and the Captain of one of Her Majesty'^s ships of the same size having about 400 I. a year, would it not be somewhat cheaper to employ the Queen's ships than to employ the ships of the Company ? A Captain of the Royal Navy, if the present practice were continued, would get 500 /. a year as Indian allowance while employed within certain limits. 1480. Is there any reason why that practice should continue ; is there anything (20. 7.) R R morfr 152 Minutes of evidence taken before select committee J. C. Mehill,Esq. more severe in the service on that side of India than the service in China, for which they would get no such extra allowance ? 1st, March 1853. J gan only say that that practice has prevailed for half a century; whether it should be continued is for others to determine. The allowances of the Royal Army are higher in India than elsewhere. 1481. Lord Broughton.] Have you any separate department at the India House having the consideration of Naval aiFairs ? Yes J the Marine correspondence is conducted by a separate branch of the Secre- tary's office, at the head of which is an assistant. 1482. But there is no department of the India House for the separate consi- deration of Naval affairs, as there is for the separate consideration of Military affairs ? Yes, there is a separate branch, called the Marine Branch of the Secretary's Office, in which the whole of the Marine correspondence with all parts of India is prepared. 1483. But the position of the gentleman at the head of that branch is not the I same as the position of the gentleman who is at the head of the Military branch ? It is the same, except that he is subordinate to me. 1484. Marquess of Salisbury^ Can you give any account of this head of the Eeturn before the Committee, " Charge of the several Marine Departments, including Staff and Establishments at Bombay, the Persian Gulf, on the River Indus, and in the Bombay Dock-yard, the Pilot Establishment, Lighthouse and Floating Lights, Steam Factory, Officers unattached on Furlough, and Non-efFec- tive, and General and Miscellaneous Charges ;" is there any means of getting at a section of that head ? Certainly ; we can divide that head into the several items that are enumerated. 1485. Will those items include the expense of buildings for the purpose of the dock-yard, and so on ? There is a separate column, including the cost of building factories. 1486. Can an account be given also of the number of persons employed in the dock-yards ? I think so. 1487. Lord Monteagle of Brandon.] Is all your building carried on in the East, or do you build in this country, and send out vessels ? We build occasionally in Europe ; but preference is given to building in India. It is found that the ships last longer, and it is thought to be advantageous to give employment to the people in the dock-yard. 1488. How is the relative expense of the one and of the other ? The absolute expense in the first instance may be larger ; but the ships built in India are found to last so much longer as to make it at least equally economical. 1489. Do you build as undertakers yourselves, or do you ever build by contract in India? I am not aware of any instance in which the Government has built a vessel by contract. 1490. Are you aware how your expenses of building at Bombay would stand as compared with the expenses of a private ship-builder there ? 1 have no means of judging ; but the rate of building at Bombay is hio-h ; Her Majesty's Government have observed this when ships have been built there for their service. 1491. Is there not a native gentleman here now who is well acquainted with that subject } There is a Parsee gentleman, who is at the head of the factory at Bombay. 1492. What has been his mission to Europe? He has come home to this country for the benefit of his health ; and has been anxious while here, his health having improved, to become acquainted with the establishments both in this country and in America, and with the improvements in steam machinery. 1493. Has ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 153 1493. Has he visited both countries ? J- C. l\lehiU, Esq. He has. 1494. Do you consider him, from his acquirements and his position, to be a competent witness upon this head of inquiry ? I think so. . ^ 1495. Earl of Ellenborough.] Have you built any vessels at Bombay lately ? There are two now building at Bombay of large size. 1496. But, in general, your vessels have been built by contract in England ? Those built in England have been built by contract, but two or three of the present ships were built at Bombay. The " Feerooz " is one of the finest vessels ; she was built at Bombay ; as also the " Auckland." 1497. Is not one of the chief reasons of the great expense incurred in building Queen's ships at Bombay the great length of time over which the building has been extended, only a small sum annually being devoted to the purpose ? I am not aware of that. 1498. Do you know how many years they were building the " Meanee " ? I do not know ; but I believe it was a long time. 1499. Chairman.] One of the items in the account before the Committee is " Pilotage " ; can you give the Committee any account of the Pilotage establish- ment in India ? The Pilotage establishment in Bengal is altogether a Government establish- ment. There have been attempts made to convert it into a voluntary establish- ment — an establishment like the Trinity Board here ; but those attempts have hot been successful. 1 500. Was that owing to there not being a sufficient demand for pilots, or to what causes ? The river is very difficult. 1501. Earl of Ellenborough.'] Is not the River Hooghley becoming much more difficult of navigation ? It is very difficult. 1502. Do you think it would have been possible now to navigate the Hooghley if steam power had not been discovered and applied to naval purposes ? Steam power has greatly facilitated the navigation. 1503. Has it ever been in contemplation to use the main stream of the Ganges, and to make a railway from Calcutta to the point where it comes nearest ? Not that I recollect. There is a proposition for a railway from Diamond Har- bour to Calcutta. 1504. But you are aware that there is a perfectly navigable stream which runs up within 60 miles of Calcutta ? Yes. 1505. Chairman.] Can you state what the expense of the Calcutta Pilotage establishment is in Bengal ? I think about four lacs of rupees is the pilotage receipt, and about seven lacs the pilotage expenditure ; there is a balance of about three lacs of rupees left as a charge on the Territorial Revenue. 1506. Marquess of Salisbury.] Are the receipts carried to the account of the general revenue ? Yes, certainly. 1 507. Under a distinct head ? Yes. The Witness is directed to withdraw. 1st March 1853. (20. 7.) 1S4 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE CAPTAIN FREDERICK THOMAS POWELL is called in, and examined as follows : Capt. F. T. Powell. 1508. Chairman.] YOU have been a long time an officer' of the Indian Navy ? 1st March 1853. y^^^ 1509. Hov? long have you served in that force ? Nearly 30 years. 1510. We have just received, in evidence, a sketch of the origin of that Navy, its present constitution, and the objects for which it is chiefly employed, which appear to be, for war purposes, for the suppression of piracy, for the service of the coast, for the transport of stores and troops, and for the mail service between Bombay and Aden ? Yes. 1511. Lord Colchester.'] What are the different' ranks of officers in the Indian Navy ; are they analogous to those in the Royal Navy ? Very nearly. There are Commodores ; but they are only temporarily so, while they hold command in the Persian Gulf; there are Captains, Commanders^-. Lieutenants, Mates and Midshipmen. 1512. Will you state the general pay of each rank? When employed, the vessels are classed in different classifications ; first, second, third, fourth and fifth rates. A captain, when employed afloat in command, gets, if in a second rate, 800 rupees a nionth ; if the same vessel is commanded by a Commander, he only gets 700 rupees a month. 1513. Earl of EUenborough.] What pay has he when not actually employed? A Captain has 400 rupees, a Commander 300 rupees per mensem. 1514. Half-pay? Yes. 1515. Lord Colchester.] Are there any duties connected with that ? They rnay be called upon to attend courts-martial and committees on stores, and different duties of that kind. 1516. What is the pay of an able seaman ? Two pounds a month, 20 rupees. 1517. Has he any other allowances besides his provisions ? No ; but in war he is allowed prize-money, the same as in the Royal Navy. 1518. Earl of Ellenborough.] When a court-martial is held, is it composed of Indian naval officers, oris it a mixed court-martial, including those of the Queen's service who happen to be there ? The courts can be formed mixed ; but since the last naval code has been granted to the service, the courts are generally, almost always in fact now, formed of officers in the service ; because it only requires five members to fprm a general court. 1519. Earl of Harrowhy.] Where are the officers residing when on half-pay; are they confined to any particular locality? Bombay, I think. 1520. May they reside anywhere in India? Anywhere, I believe, on obtaining leave. 1521. Earl of Ellenhorough.] What privileges of futlough have they ? Similar to those in the Army. 1522. Chamnan.] Can you state what proportion of remuneration an officer in your service receives, as compared with what an officer in the Queen's service, commanding a similar sized vessel receives, when batta is added to his pay ? I cannot state that distinctly ; I am not quite conversant with the amount that an officer in the Ro3'al Navy gets ; but I think a Captain, commanding a vessel ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 155 vessel that is classed as a second-rate vessel in the Royal Navy, would receive a Capt. F. T. Powell. considerably greater emolument than an Indian naval officer commanding a second-rate vessel. is t March 185 3. 1523. But a second-rate vessel in the Queen's service would not be the same sort of vessel as a second rate in the Indian service ? No ; but I think a Captain in command of a steam frigate in India would receive, with the addition of the Indian allowance, more than an officer of the Indian Navy commanding a vessel of the same class. 1 524. Earl of Ellenhorough.] Is not the Indian allowance entirely dependent upon the courtesy of the Indian Government, being a thing of which the Admi- ralty has no cognizance ? No cognizance whatever ; it is the gift of the Indian Government. 1525. Have you any marines in your service? There is a corps of natives that were embodied expressly for the service to serve afloat ; because the men of the line do not like serving afloat, and this corps was embodied expressly for the purpose of serving in the vessels of the Indian Navy. 1526. Of what caste are the men ? Of all castes; there are Jews, Hindoos and Mahomedans, and some of the lowest castes in India. 1 527. Has any attempt ever been made to recruit for that corps on the coast of Arabia, Arabs of the Red Sea ? I think not. 1528. Earl of Harrow by.] Do those mixed castes serve well? Very well. 1529. Tliey are not deficient in conduct or courage ? Not at all ; they are extremely well-behaved men. 1 530. They have no difficulty in serving together ? No. 1531. Lord Colchester.] Are your crews composed of Europeans and natives? Yes. 1532. In any particular proportions ? About one -third are natives ; but when the vessels are sent on active service, similar to the duties they are now employed upon in the Burmese waters, the only natives then, are the stokers and coal-trimmers. 1533. Is there a scale of pensions for wounds and for long servicer Yes ; I believe the same as that which appertains to the Indian Army. 1534. Chairman.] Can you state anything as to the general popularity of the service among the officers ? Since the service has had a martial law of its ovra, I think the service has been very popular amongst the officers ; but during the time they were serving under a law which made them both sailors and soldiers, I think it was unpopular. 1535. Lord Wharncltffe.] You mean since the passing of the last Act ? Since the passing of the last Act I think the service has been popular amongst the officers. 1536. Earl of Ellen borough.] Was not the service naturally unpopular at the time when there were but few vessels, and the service was principally confined to the Persian Gulf? I do not think it was unpopular on that account ; I think, at the time when steam was first introduced into the service, there were a number of very old officers then at the head of the service who had been always accumstomed to sailing vessels, who did not like the idea of serving in steamers, and from that cause I think the service was unpopular among the officers ; but it was chiefly on account of their anticipating that the service would be changed from a war service to a packet or a transport service. 1537. Chairman.] Is that head of service, the packet service, unpopular now ? (20. 7.) S s Not 156 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Capt. F. T..P(twell. Not at all ; the officers, generally speaking, are as willing to serve in the packet? as they are in the vessels of war. 1st March 1853. 1538. ISiarl of Elknborough.] What arrangements are made for the mainte- nance of passengers on board ; has the officer in command anything to do with it ? Nothing whatever now, beyond examining the provisions that are sent on board. 1539. The Government take the passage-money, and the Government supply the provisions ? It is done now by contract ; native shopkeepers generally in Bombay contract with the Government for so much a head for each passenger. 1540. Lord Wharncliffe.] Has a naval officer commanding any one of those ships in the packet service any additional advantage whatever on that account ? None whatever beyond the pay for commanding the vessel which he would receive if the vessel was not employed as a packet. 1541. He receives no special advantage from being employed in the packet service ? None whatever. 1542. Earl of EUenborough'\ Does it not put the Captain often to gi-eat inconvenience ? Very great. 1543. Then how comes it that that branch of the service is not less popular than you describe it to be ? There are many officers in the service who did not like supplying the table, in consequence of disagreeable remarks made by the passengers ; it was impossible to please every one, and I think that was the cause of its being taken out of the Captain's hands, and since that change it has not been unpopular. 1544. Lord Colchester.'] I understood you to say that the emoluments of an officer of the Royal Navy, in command of a vessel on service in India, are greater than those of an officer of the Indian Navy ; are w^e to understand from that, that an officer of the Indian Navy, in command of a steamer like the " Moozuffer," of 1,440 tons, acting on the same service with a Queen's officer, commanding a ship of the same size, would receive smaller pay and allowances than the Queen's officer ? If the ship in the Royal service was commanded by a Captain. 1545. Supposing the case of two vessels of the same size employed upon the same service, and were commanded by officers of the same rank in the two ser- vices, would there be a difference in their pay and emoluments ? I think the Royal Naval Officer would receve the greatest pay and allowances. 1546. Earl oi Ellenborougk.l Has the batta given by the Indian Government to the Queen's Naval Officer any reference to the size of the ship he commands, or only his rank ? To the size of the ship, as well as to his rank ; for a Captain commanding a frigate, receives a larger amount than a Captain commanding a steamer; at least I have always understood that to be the case. 1547. Chairman.] Have you met with any complaints, either from merchants, or from passengers, with respect to the accommodation for passengers or for goods in the steamers ? Yes, I have ; but that was at a time when the mails were carried by very small steamers. I have not heard so many complaints since we have had vessels like the " Ajdaha," the " Moozuffer," and vessels of that kind. 1548. What is the average rate of speed of those larger vessels? Between 9 and 10 knots. 1549. How is that, compared with the steamers of the Oriental and Peainsular Company .'* The speed of the larger vessels in the Indian Navy, I think, is greater than that of the Oriental and Peninsular vessels, 1650. Eaii ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. ] 57 1 550. Earl of Ellenborough.'] Up to a certain period the steamers of the Capt. F. T. PukM. Indian Navy had not sufficient horse-power for their tonnage ? ,. — T „ Certainly not. istMardMSsg. 1 551. You never got 10 knots an hour out of the " Tennasserim," did you : 1 think not ; but sh5 did not belong to the Indian Navy. 1552. Nor out of the " Auckland ?" Nor out of the " Auckland." 1553. Viscount {fanning.] Are not those vessels out of wbich you get an average of 10 knots, faster than the Peninsular and Oriental Company's boats, and built to carry heavy armament in case they should be required ? Yes. 1554. Do you believe that they would be competent to do service in war with a heavy armament, if occasion should arise ? They have, on several occasions. 1555. But yet they are able to make passages at the average rate of 10 knots an hour ? Yes, about that ; but then they do not carry their heavy guns ; they have only, perhaps, two 32-pounders on board. 1556. But the strength of the scantling, and the other necessary requirements for carrying heavy armament, does not incapacitate them from doing packet work at that speed ? Not in the least. 1557. Earl oi Ellenborough.'] Are they so built as to have a free current of air fore and aft } No. 1558. It is in some of the Queen's ships, but not in all ? Not in all. 1559. Lord Broughton.] Suppose the Indian Navy were to cease to have any connexion with the mail or packet service, do you think that would be any detri- ment to its general efficiency ? Yes, I think it would ; for I think there would at times be a want of occu- pation for the ships in the service. 1560. But would not the natural cure for that want of occupation be to make the Navy smaller ? It would ; but then when their services were required, there would be no ships ready. 1561. But might they not lay the steam-boats up ? Then there would be considerable expense in paying the officers. 1562. Might not the part of the service required for war purposes be per- formed in that case by the Queen's Navy ? The duties might be performed by the Queen's Navy, no doubt ; but the expense would be very much greater if they were. 1563. 'Lord Monteagle of Biandon.] Do you conceive that the packet service is as well performed when performed partly by the Indian Navy and partly by contract, as it would be if it were performed upon one continuous system, carried on by one enterprise ? I think it is much better to be conducted by two parties. If it were con- ducted solely by one, they would have such a complete monopoly in carrying the passengers, that it would be in their power to raise the amount of passage-money beyond what a great many of the junior officers returning from India could aflford to pay. 1564. I can understand your observation, if there are two competing lines the whole way ; but do you think that the benefits of competition can ever be attained by dividing one line between two parties ; must not the power of mono- poly exist in either of those parties just as much as if they had the whole line in their hands ? At present there are no two parties, that I am aware of, conveying the mails ^^20. 7.) betweea 158 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ist March 1853;. Capt.F.T.Pofuell. between Bombay and Suez; the Oriental and Peninsular Company convey the mails to Calcutta, but I am not aware that they convey any mails to Bombay. - 1565. There are two steam communications, for instance, from Bombay to the southward .'' Only one ; they go from Bombay to Ceylon and China. 1566. If there be danger of monopoly, how is that averted by dividing the whole line of communication, say from England to Ceylon, or from England to China, into two parts, and putting a portion of it into the hands of the East India Company, and leaving the rest to the Peninsular and Oriental Company, or any other commercial company ? By the East India Company running packets, I think they have prevented the Oriental Packet Company raising their fares. 1567. How is it possible that the East India Company, running packets from Suez to Bombay, can prevent the effect of the monopoly which you apprehend as between Bombay and Ceylon or China ? But I believe the Oriental Company have started steamers to run from Suez to Bombay. 1568. In that case, is not the effect of their so running rather to break down a monopoly than to create one ? I think they put on those steamers in consequence of the immense number of passengers that come down the Indus from the Northern Provinces to Bombay, 1569. Therefore the two objections which occur to you against divesting the East India Company of any concern in the packet service are, first, the difficulty of finding employment for their own Navy without the packet service, and, next,, this question of monopoly, which you apprehend would arise in that case ? Yes. 1570. Have you any other objection but those two ? None strikes me just at this present moment. 1571. Viscount Canning.] Would it not be an objection, in the estimation of the East India Company, that they should lose the 50,000 /. a year paid to them by the Government for this service ? I believe that the expenses which the East India Company are put to in carry- ing the mail very far exceed 50,000 1, a year. 1572. Chairman.] Then you think it would be an economy to them to have the whole performed by contract with a private company ? I think the East India Company would save by it, but at the same time they would destroy the efficiency of a service which at present does them a great deal of good in India. 1573. Viscount Canning.] Supposing this were to happen, that under a new contract with the Oriental and Peninsular Company the carriage of the mails between Suez and Point de Galle should be taken away from the steamers of the East India Company, and given to the vessels of the' Oriental and Peninsular Com- pany, but that the East India Company should still retain the 50,000 /. a year, with the obligation to run vessels, do you imagine that that state of things would be agreeable to the East India Company r No ; I do not think they would care to save the 50,000 1 upon those terms. 1574. Not if they were deprived of the carriage of the mails? Not if they were deprived of the carriage of the mails. 1575. "\7ould not the effect be, that there would be competition between their vessels and the vessels of the Peninsular and Oriental Company, and that they would probably leave so as to arrive nearly about the same time ? Yes. 1576. Do you think it would be agreeable to them to continue running their vessels upon the consideration of receiving 50,000 /. a year, coupled with the con- dition that they should be deprived of the mails, and thereby be deprived also of a certain number of passengers ? If th6 mails were taken from, the East India Company, and transferred to the Oriental 1st March 1853. ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 159 Oriental and Peninsular vessels, there could be no object in the East India Com- Capt. T. T. Pouoell. pany running their steamers between Suez and Bombay. 1577. They would therefore cease to do it ? I should imagine so. 1578. The 50,000 Z. would not be a sufficient inducement to them to continue to run them ? I should think not. 1579. Earl oi Ellenborough.] Are the officers of the Indian Marine appointed in the first instance by the Court of Directors ? They are ; they are called in this country volunteers to the Indian Navy ; but immediately they arrive in India, they are designated Midshipmen, and before leaving this country they are sworn in to serve the East India Company faithfully and truly. 1580. Lord Colchester.'] Are they taken from Haileybury college? No ; of late years, since steam has become the principal power in the service, nearly every Midshipman before he gets his appointment from the Court of Directors is obliged to attend at some of the large factories for several months before he leaves this country for India. 1581. Does he undergo any examination before he leaves this country for India? I believe not ; but he is obliged to furnish a certificate from some factory of his general knowledge of the marine steam-engine. 1582. Earl of Ellenborough.'} Is there any subsequent examination in India? Yes ; he must pass an examination in seamanship, navigation and gunnery, before he can he promoted to be a Mate. 1583- Who are the judges of his qualifications Generally Captains in the service. 1584. Lord Broughton.] Is there any Board of Examiners, or does the matter rest with the Superintendent of the Indian Navy ? The Superintendent of the Indian Navy has the ordering of the committee for their examination. 1585. Earl of Ellenborough.'] In point of fact the ofiicers are generally very good navigators, are they not ? I believe they are. 1586. Chairman.] Whence do you derive your chief supply of coal ? From England. 1587. One of the heads of service is the navigation of the Indus, what is the chief employment of the Indian Navy there ? For several years, until the Punjaub became settled, the vessels were almost exclusively employed in moving troops and military stores ; but since the annex- ation of the Punjaub, in addition to these duties, they have carried merchandise, besides conveying passengers both up and down the river. 1 588. Is it necessary to have them so employed, or would there be any means of getting those duties performed by private enterprise ? At the present time there is not a private steamer on the river ; they are all the property of the East India Company. 1589. How far is the Indus navigable ? As far as Mooltan up the Chenab, and Kala Bagh up the Indus, at all seasons of the year. 1590. Would you think it impracticable to navigate higher up than that? I think so, excepting during the inundation, as, from the peculiar nature of the soil, the whole of it being sand, is constantly liable to shift, and obstruct the channels. 1591. Earl of Ellenborough.] Has not one little steamer been up toFerozepore once ? Yes, and one has been to Loodianah, and another up the Jailum, as far as that part of the river where the troops crossed over on their way to Peshawur, under (20. 7.) T T General 160 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Ca^t. F. T. PffttieU. General Gilbert ; but the upper rivers will not admit of being navigated during the cold seasons. 1st March 1853. . , . , , ^ , ■»*■ • y 9 1592, Chairman.'] Are you acquainted with the Calcutta Marine force '. I served in the same fleet with them during the last Chinese war. 1593. Was there any inconvenience arising from the want of martial law ? Yes ; I remember peri%ctly well Sir William Parker speaking to me upon that subject : he said, that, in consequence of their not being under martial law, there was no lawful means of punishing the men who misbehaved themselves in those ships, and on one or two occasions I believe they gave some little trouble on that account. 1594, Do you see any reason why the two services should be kept separate, and why they' should not be assimilated with regard to their regulations, and put under one establishment ? If the Bengal Marine were to be embodied with the Indian Navy, I think that could not be done except with injustice to some officers of the Indian Navy ; for, of course, many of the persons in command of those ships would not like to enter the Indian Navy, except as Commanders or Captains, according to the length of time they had served ; and that, of course, would retard the promotion of the present Lieutenants in the Indian Navy. 1595 Earl of Ellenborough.] On the other hand, the number of vessels would be increased ? It would increase the service, certainly. 1596. Lord Wharncliffe.] Are there many oflicers of the Indian Navy on shore unemployed ? No, there is scarcely an instance known, except in cases of sickness. 1597. Chairman.^ Are you generally satisfied in time of peace with the services of natives ? Yes, generally -, the vessels are manned during time of peace with about one- third of natives and two-thirds Europeans, 1598. Do the natives amalgamate well with the Europeans r Yes, very well. 1599. Lord Monteagle of Brandon.] Do any of the natives rise to the position of petty officers ? They always have. petty officers among themselves, who are called Serangs and Tindals ; the Serang is synonymous with the term "boatswain," and Tindals to " boatswains' mates." 1600. Are they appointed by the officer commanding the vessel, or are they selected amongst themselves for those positions ? The serang is generally appointed from the Superintendent's office, and he recommends to the Captain of the ship the best men fitted for the situation of tindals ; should they turn out afterwards not to be fit for the situation, the Captain has the power of reducing them. 1601. And appointing another ? Yes. 1602. Generally speaking, how do those natives so employed in those capacities discharge their functions ? Generally, very welL 1603. Do you think they perform them as well, relatively speaking, as Euro- peans of the same class would in the Queen's service ? They have not the physical power that the European has. 1604. Earl of Ellenborough.] Has not the Chinese ? Some of the Chinese have, 1605. Have you Chinese on board? Not in the Indian Navy, except as carpenters. 1606. Lord Elphinstone.] Have you ever had Malays? We have had a few Malays mixed up with the natives of Iijdia ; but we very seldom take Malays if we can get other Indians. 1607. Ear| ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 161 1607. ^axlotEUenborough.^ When the ships of the Indian Navywere ordered Capt.F.T.Pmuell. round from Bombay to the Irrawady, had you not to dismiss those natives, and to enlist Europeans in their place ? ^«' March 1853. No ; they are generally removed into other vessels in the service, and the Europeans in those vessels transferred into the ships required for active service. 1608. Then those vessels which had the Europeans taken out of them were mostly packet vessels ? Principally, I believe, and from other vessels. 1609. Are you aware that on the Calcutta side some of the vessels were reduced almost entirely to a native establishment ? I believe they were, very nearly. 1610. They would, then, have to recruit the whole strength of European sea- men ? Yes ; and at times European seamen are difficult to procure. I have heard of high bounties having been paid to them to join the Bengal Marine. 1611. C/iairman.] Did Sir William Parker ever publicly express his opinion with respect to the services of the Indian Navy ? I believe he has done so by letter to the Governor General of India. 1612. Wag it a very favourable opinion ? I believe so. 1613. Is there any other point connected with the Indian Navy upon which you can give useful information to the Committee ? Nothing further occurs to me at this moment beyond what I have stated. 1614. E&rl o{ Ellen borough.] Have you in the Indian Navy, from that service being constantly carried on in a hot climate, adopted any peculiar modes not adopted in the Queen's vessels, for the purpose of facilitating the passage of air into the vessels, and making the service more healthy and more comfortable to the crews } 1 think we use awnings more than is done in Her Majesty's service. 1615. You have a double awning? Very frequently ; and we pay great attention to wind sails. 1616. Have you punkahs ? Frequently, in the officers' quarters ; but the space, generally speaking, in the men's quarters does not admit of them ; in fact, the men generally prefer being on deck. 1617. But you generally have a double awning? Very frequently. 1618. And very superior to any that are furnished in the Queen's ships ? They are both made of canvas. In the Indian Navy we invariably take them down at sunset ; but we frequently, in fact invariably, spread them again at the time the men go to sleep : the consequence is, that we always allow our men to sleep on deck. I think that is one of the main reasons why the men in our service are, generally speaking, healthier than they are in Her Majesty's ships ; there they have them between decks, and the men are obliged to take down their hammocks, and hang them up, and sleep in them ; the consequence is, that they perspire most profusely, and they turn out at any hour of the night, and come on deck, with a heavy dew, and frequently get chilled, which I think very often brings on bowel complaints, and other diseases. 1619. Have you any means of forcing air into the body of the ship ? No, we have not. 1620. You never attempted that ? No. 1621. Lord Elphinstone.] Have you served much in the Persian Gulf? Not of late years : the first five or six years of my servitude were passed in the Persian Gulf. (20.7.) 1622. What 162 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Capt.F.T. Pomll. 1622. What proportion of the Indian Navy is now employed in the F ' ' ^ '^' In general a sloop of war, with a brig and schooner ; a steamer also visits the Gulf occasionally. 1623. Piracy no longer exists in that quarter.? We seldom hear of it now, as the time when instances most i j- pened was during the pearl fishery, and at. that period vessels _. ,n Navy cruise on the banks for the purpose of suppressing it ; still a few cases, I believe, do now and then occur. 1624. What is the season for the pearl fishery ? It commences about the 20th of May, and lasts through June, July and August, to about the ?Oth of September. 1 625. Every year ? ' Every year during those hot months : in cold weather the divers cannot remain under water. 1626. Lord Broughton.] You still retain a few sailing vessels of small force in the Indian Navy ? I think there are about nine or ten altogether. 1627. Do you think it advisable still to retain those, instead of having more steam vessels ? I think if the East India Company had screw steam vessels in their place, they would be better than the sailing vessels. 1628. Earl Graham.l You spoke of the men sleeping on the deck in heavy dews ; is not it imprudent to sleep on deck in heavy dews ? Not under awnings. 1629. Lord Ellenhorough.] Have you ever seen the thermantidote ? Yes. 1630. Do you think it would be possible to apply that to forcing air into a ship? I have no doubt it would be quite possible, particularly in a steamer, because it might be worked by the engine. 1631. Would it not be of great advantage to force an increased supply of air into the after-part of the ship where you have a complete bar across by the machinery ? I think it would ; it would tend to make the vessel much cooler, and more healthy. 1632. Lord Colchester.] How do the officers of the Indian Navy rank with offi- cers of the same grade of the Royal Navy ? Each grade is junior to the same grade in the Royal Navy: Captains of the Indian Navy rank .below all Captains of the Royal Navy, and above Commanders of the Royal Navy, 1633. In acting together in the same service, would a Captain of the Indian Navy take the command of a Queen's ship commanded by a Commander? I do not think he would, unless the vessel was placed under his orders ; for when we act together, we are always ordered to place ourselves under the com- mapd of the Royal Naval Officer who may be the senior. 1634. Lord Wharncliffe.] Is there an ample supply of officers in the Indian Navy for the service of all the ships employed in time of war now ? No, I do not think there is, because we have been obliged to take a number of private individuals into the service to fill up vacancies : and the steamers on the Indus are every one commanded by men who, strictly speaking, do not belong to the service, but are volunteers from the merchant service. 1635. And they hold temporary Commissions ? They hold warrants as Masters and Second Masters. 1636. But, speaking of the higher grades of the regular service, would thete be any ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 163 any persons serving under those circumstances in the regular line of the Indian Capt. F. T. Powell. Navy? I do not understand this question. i st March 185 3. 1637. Then is there a sufficient supply of officers in the line for the service of the Indian Navy ? If the whole of them were present for duty in India, there would be quite suffi- cient; but, from the nature of the climate, numbers are absent on sick leave, and many are obliged to return to this country for the benefit of their health. This causes vessels which otherwise would be commanded by Captains or Com- manders, to be commanded by Lieutenants, many of whom are of 20 years' servitude. 1688. In a time of war, like the present, is there not a larger number of ships in the Indian Navy in commission than there would be in time of peace ? No ; nearly the same. 1639.' In time of peace how would those ships which are now in active service be employed ? In moving troops' stores, and conveying the mails to Suez and Aden, besides various other duties. 1640. Earl of EUenborough.] That is on the Bombay side ? On the Bombay side. 1641. Not on the Bengal side ? Not on the Bengal side : as an instance, there was a native regiment that had to be moved the other day, and, in consequence of those vessels being round at Burmah, they had no steamers available ; the consequence was, the regiment was sent in native boats to Scinde. 1642. Was not that regiment nearly lost r I believe so, and some nearly starved, from the report in the newspapers. 1643. Lord Wkarncliffe.] Setting aside the packet service, which is at present performed by the Indian Navy, do you suppose that in time of peace there would be full employment for the total number of vessels which are now in commission in time of war ? Yes, I think there would. 1 644. Principally in the conveyance of troops } Troops and stores ; and cruising in the Persian Gulf, Red Sea, and Coasts of Africa and Arabia, besides carrying on extensive surveys. 1645. Do you consider that a necessary service ? Yes. 1646. Is that omitted in time of war; have they a vessel there at present? Not at present, on the Afjican coast ; still there are vessels in the Persian Gulf and Red Sea. 1647. Lord Brouffhton.] Is not it usual at Bombay that one or two tugs are employed regularly for the transport of troops and stores ? Strictly speaking, they have not such things as tugs in Bombay ; but one of the old packet vessels was nearly rebuilt, and fitted as a transport : the vessel I allude to is the " Berenice," now employed in Burmah. 1648. Earl of EUenborough.] The troops are all put forward in the vessel, are they not? No ; the " Berenice " has a regular troop deck, and when I have carried any, I have given them nearly the whole deck. J1649. What distance have you carried troops ? I have carried troops between Kurrachee and Bo»^bay. 1650. That is a short passage ? Three or four days. 1651. How many have you carried, per ton, after deducting the space occupied by the machinery ? 1 think the " Memnon " carried on one occasion nearly a whole regiment to Kurrachiee. (20.7.) Uu 1652. What 164 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Capt. F. T.Po^ell. 1652. What disposable tonnage had she ? ~ She was a registered 1,100 tons' ship, and I should think that at least 4UU ot 1st March 1853. that must have been taken for engines and boilers. 1653. About 700 tons disposable tonnage ? Yes. 1654. Then she carried about a man a ton r Yes. 1655. You would not have carried so many for any considerable distance ? I think in India you might ; it all depends upon the season ; in the wet season decidedly not, because you could not give the men covering ; but in the dry season a vessel of that kind might take a regiment to China, or to any part of India. 1656. If you carry troops, is not it absolutely necessary to have those awnings which you spoke of, that they may sleep on deck ? Yes ; what I now speak of would be only in case of emergency, when other tonnage could not be procured ; I have known an instance of one steamer taking a whole native regiment to Aden ; if tonnage could have been procured, of course there would have been more employed. 1 657. You have an enormous quantity of baggage to take when you take a whole regiment, have you not? Immense ; and on that account a long voyage could not be undertaken, as it might be very dangerous to the health of the troops. In going up the Indus, a flat and a steamer can take the wing of a European regiment. 1658. But the flat would take the largest number ? Yes : the steamer used to take 200, and the flat 300, with the whole of their followers, and the whole of their camp equipage, and provisions for 14 or 15 days; but then every evening the vessels pulled up at the river's bank, and the men went on the shore, and the natives slept on shore ; only the Europeans slept on board the vessels. 1659- Lord Elphinstone.] Are not those steamers very large between decks ? They have no between decks ; the flats have ; but then they are generally filled with ammunition and camp equipage. 1 660. Have you been up the Indus yourself ? Yes. 1661. How far? I have been up to Ferozepore. 1662. You have not been up the Ganges? No. 1663. You cannot compare the two rivers ? No, I cannot. 1664. How long were you going up the Indus? With a flat in tow, about 18 days to Moultan. 1665. Did you experience considerable difficulties in navigating the vessels up the Indus? Not much. 1 666. Lord Monteagle of Brandon.] What draught of water had you } About three feet four. 1667. Earl of EUenborough.] Have you been in company with any officers who knew both rivers, both the Indus and the Ganges ? Yes. I have heard it said that the Indus shifts more than the Ganges ; that the channel changes more suddenly at times than the Ganges; I have known the channel in the Indus to shift eight or nine feet in four and twenty hours, so as to leave only a few inches of water where it had been deep twenty-four hours before, the deep channel having shifted half a mile away. 1668. Do you provide against the difficulties by having more pilots there? The pilots are stationed on the Indus about thirty to forty miles apart. 1669. In ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 165 1669. In the Ganges they have pilots at every six or seven miles ; if you had Capt.F. T.Pmell. a pilot at every four or five miles, should not you be in a condition to know what changes have taken place in the channel ? is t March 185 3. I found those mentioned quite sufficient : there were always two at each station, one up and one down. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, Two o'clock. ^. (Private and Confidential.) Select Committee on the Government of Indian Temtories. EVIDENCE OF Mr. Ardaseer Cursetjee - - - - - p. 167 Robert JVigram Crawford, Esquire - - - p. 172 3d March 185.3. [Great inconvenience having arisen from the Publication of Minutes of Evidence taken before Committees, and of Papers, &c. laid before them, it is particularly requested, that Peers receiving such Minutes and Papers will be careful that they are confined to the object for which they are printed, the special use of the Lords appointed on such Committees.] (20.8.) ( 167 ) Die Joms, 3" Martii 1853. LORDS PRESENT; The Lord President. Marquess of Salisbury. Earl of x'Vlbemarle. Earl of Powis. Earl of Harrowby. Earl of Ellenborough. Lord Colchester. Lord Wynford. Lord Stanley of Alderley. Lord Broughton. THE LORD PRESIDENT in the Chair. MR. ARDASEER CURSETJEE is called in, and examined as follows .- Evidence on the Government of Indian Territories. 1670. Chairman.] WILL you state what situation you hold under ' the East Mr. A. Cursetjee. India Company? Chief Engineer and Inspector of Machinery. 3d March 1853. 1671. Have you any objection to state to the Committee what has been the object of your visit to this country and to the United States ? I am come to this country for the benefit of my health, upon sick leave, and I have visited the United States for the purpose of improving myself, and seeing what is going on. 1672. What acquaintance have you with the Indian Navy? I hold a civil appointment under the department of the Indian Navy. 1673. Has your attention been called to the mode in which the packet service is performed by that force ? Yes. 1674. Complaints have reached the Committee that that service is not so rapidly performed as is desired by the commercial classes ; is that the case ? There is some truth in that ; but not exactly to the extent stated in the public papers ; neither is the opinion held about those steamers quite correct. 1675. You mean that it is not a matter of fact that they performed the voyages so slowly as is stated in some of those papers ? No. 1676. From what you have seen in this country and the United States, what is your opinion with regard to the efficiency of the machinery used in the steam vessels in that service ? We generally use the same machinery as they use in America, as far as the sga steam navigation goes. The machinery of the sea boats in the Collins line and the Cunard line are nearly similar to what we use in India. 1677. Are the vessels you use in India as good ? The engines are every bit as good ; some of them are made by the same men. 1678. Have you had any very large vessels lately added to the force ? Not very large lately ; we have now under construction two very large vessels, about 700 horse-power, and 1,800 tons ; they are now in progress of building. We had lately three new vessels of 500 horse-power, which are very fast vessels, and equal to any of the Peninsular and Oriental Company's boats that run in the Indian Seas. (20. 8.) X X 679. Have 168 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. A. Cursftjee. 1679. Have any vessels which had been carrying the mails hitherto been taken , off this station in consequence of the Burmese war ? 3 d March 185 3- Yes, the best of them. 1680. Is not that inconvenient to the public service that the best should be liable to be taken oflF? It is an inconvenience, 1681. Have you heard any complaints from the commercial classes of the diflSculty of transmitting goods by those steamers ? Yes ; I have heard some complaints made by individuals ; but I have conversed with Mr. Allen, the chief director of the Peninsular and Oriental Company, and he told me that they have been running their vessels from Bombay to the Red Sea for more than 12 months, and that they have sustained considerable loss. They have discontinued that line now ; so that I do not think there is a great deal of traffic going on in that line, although the merchants have complained. 1682. They send samples now, and not goods? They send samples, I believe, and not goods. 1683. Earl oi Ellenborough.] Where did you acquire the knowledge which qualified you for the situation of Inspector of Machinery ? In this country; I was here in 1839 and 1840. 1684. Where did you study ? At Messrs. Seward & Co. 1685. How long were you there ? A twelvemonth. I studied in Bombay, and learned my profession in the dock- yard as a shipwright; and then I turned my mind to steam engineering at Bombay ; and after finishing my education there, I came for a twelvemonth to England. 1686. Is the machinery ever manufactured in India ? We ran manufacture it ; but we have so much to do about repairs that we have no time. 1687. You can do any repairs'? We can do any repairs. We make new boilers there in everything. 1688. What is the comparison between the expense of building at Bombay and of building in England ? I do not know exactly the price in England ; but as far as my Icnowledge goes, I think we build somewhat cheaper in Bombay than it is done in England. 1689. Lord Elphinstone.] Are not steam machinery and boilers much cheaper in this country than in Bombay? I think we could make them equally cheap. The materials are very cheap, and the workmanship is not dear. 1 690. Is not iron dearer ? To a very trifling degree. 1691 . Earl of JEllenborough.^ Whence do you get coals for your steamers ? From England. 1692. Lord Broughtori.] Are you not aware that the Royal Navy have dis- continued building ships at Bombay, in consequence of the greater expense of building there than at home ? No ; with respect to the last vessel there was great complaint ; but there was great discussion about it. It was not exactly the fault of the country nor of the wages. The vessel was seven years upon the stocks, and the rent of the slip and the cost of the ship altogether amounted to a very exorbitant sum. 1693. Earl of Ellenborough.] Did not the Admiralty limit the sum which was to be expended in each year? Not that I am aware of. There was no limit that I know of. 1694. How many years was the " Meanee" building ? To the best of my recollection, upwards of six years ; but two other ships of the same class were built in about two years and a half. 1695. Lord ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 169 1695. Lord Colchester.'] Do not the Government sometimes have the timber ^r. A. CunHjee. of the ship converted in India and sent home to be fitted ? j March iStq Yes. 1696. Are the steam-vessels built in Bombay, and the machinery brought from iglanc Yes. England ? 1697. Earl of EUenborough.'] Do you build them all of teak ? Yes, but we do not use the Moulmein teak ; we use the northern teak. ] 698. Lord Colchester.] Can you state the price per ton ■which it costs to build a steamer, exclusively of the machinery ? I think it runs from about 30 1, a ton, complete and ready for sea. 1699. Did you build the boats which were sent up the Indus to form the bridge ? They were built by the master builder of the department in the same dock-yard, but not under my control. 1700. You do not know the cost of those boats ? No. 1701. When you say about 30/. " complete, and ready for sea," what do you include in that ? Masts, and yards and sails, rigging and everything, exclusively of the machinery. 1702. Supposing you exclude the stores and rigging, and take merely the hull, what would the cost be r It would be about 25 1, a ton, about 5 /. cheaper. 1703. Would sailing vessels be about the same ? About the same, probably a little cheaper ; if it were a merchant vessel it would be a little cheaper. 1704. Lord Broughton.] Are there many of your o-mi countrymen employed in that department, either acting with you or under you ? There are not many in my department, but in the shipwrights' department there are a great many. 1705. Is there any other of your countrymen at the head of another depart- ment, in the same way as you are at the head of the machinery department ? Yes, my father is the master shipwright in the same dock-yard where I am the chief engineer. Our family have been at the head of the dock-yard for the last 150 years, under the British Government. 1706. Lord Stanley of Alderley.J What are your duties as chief engineer ? To inspect all the machinery of the Company's vessels, to repair them, and keep them in proper order, and to superintend all the machinery belonging to the East India Company in Bombay. 1 707. Is there anybody over you ? There is nobody over me in the practical part ; the Commander-in-Chief of the Indian Navy gives his orders, and I act under him. 1708. Chairman.] Are you able to give the Committee any information upon the subject of the transport of troops and stores, and can you state whether or not that service could be conveniently performed by merchant vessels ? We cannot always depend upon merchant vessels ; sometimes there are a great many vessels in the harbour, and sometimes there is a scarcity. 1 709. Are you at all acquainted with the navigation of the Indus ? Only from hearsay. 1710. Piracy has been entirely put down there, has it not ? There is no piracy now in the Indian Seas, that I know of. 1711. Lord Stanley of Alderley.J Are most of the shipwrights employed in the dock-yard at Bombay Parsees, or are they of different castes ? Parsees and Hindoos. (20.8.) YY 1712. Lord 170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. A. Cursetjee. 1712. Lord Broughton.] ITiere are not many English ? , No, not in the shipwright work. 3d March 1853. . , » , t^ ,. , ,1-^1 ^ 1713. Lord Stanley of Alderley.j Are there many English employed m the dock-yard ? A great many in the steam machinery, under me. 1714. Are there many artisans, who are Parsees, who are employed in the steam- machinery department ? Very few Parsees, but a great many Hindoos and Mussulmans. 1715. Earl of Ellenborough.] Are there any Chinese r Very few Chinese, except occasionally as joiners. 1716. Lord Elphinstone.] Are there any Portuguese ? Yes, as joiners. 1717. Earl of Ellenborough.] Are there any private yards at Bombay ? There is only one, the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company's Yard. 1718. Are there none for building merchant vessels ? No private yards. 1719. Where do they get their ships built ? They used to get them built in the Government dock-yard. Small coasting boats they can build upon little places which they have there, but there is no regular building yard. 1720. Lord Stanley of Alderley.j Do you find the native smiths and persons employed in the steam-machinery department as efficient as European workmen ? Quite so. The men who work as smiths, and the boiler-makers, are princi- pally Hindoos. 1721. From what part of India do they chiefly come ? From Guzerat, and the northern part of Bombay. 1722. ^dix\ oi Ellenborough.} How many men are usually employed in the dock-yard ? They vary very much ; sometimes there are more than 2,000 ; but the number varies according to the work. 1723. As there are no private docks, and so little is done in the way of building at Bombay, except by the Government, have you the means of increasing your establishment quickly, in the event of a sudden emergency ? Yes ; because when they have no work in the dock -yard, the men go to house- building and joining, and little boat-building ; some of them go to their own country, which is quite close, and when we want them we send for them. 1724. Lord Colchester. 1 Are there many merchant vessels built now at Bombay ? Not at present. 1 725. Is there any other port at which they are built ? Yes, there is Damaun, a Portuguese settlement ; and at Cochin, in the British territory, there is a fine ship-building yard. 1726. Earl Powis^ How many times a month do the packets start from Bom- bay? Tvnce a month, the mail packets. 1727. How often has it happened, since you have been connected with the dock-yard, that vessels have been obliged to put back by their machinery breaking in consequence of bad weather ? Only one instance that I recollect in eleven years from the actual breaking of machinery. 1728. Ebx\ oi Ellenhorough.] But they have been obliged to turn back from other causes ? From stress of weather, or leakage of the ship ; but that is very seldom • alto- gether I do not think there have been half-a-dozen cases in eleven years. 1729. Have 3d March 18^)3. ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 171. 1729. Have they one uuiform route ? Mr. A. Cursetjee. No ; they take a different passage in the south-west monsoon. 1730. But, according to the monsoon, there is the same route always ? Yes. 1731. How far do they go to the southward? Some go two degrees north, some six degrees north, and so on 1732. Lord Elphinstone.] You said that the machinery of the steamers belong- ing to the Bombay Navy is equal to that of the Cunard and Collins lines ; do you mean that it is equal in point of power relatively to the tonnage of the vessels ? No, I do not mean that ; I mean that it is equal in the manufacture. 1733. But not equally powerful in proportion to the tonnage ? No. 1734. Earl Powis.] Are the mail packets all wooden vessels ? All wooden vessels. 1735. Earl of Ellenborough.] Are there any screw vessels? No screws ; there is only one screw belonging to a private company in Bombay. 1736. Chairman.] Do they carry guns ? Some of them carry guns. 1737. Earl of Ellenborough.] But only for signals ? They have a large swivel gun. 1738. Chairman.^ Are there any iron vessels in the Company's service? Small boats for river service ; not more than one sea-going. 1739. Earl Powis.] How many boats are there for the packet service ? They generally keep five boats for packets running. 1740. Lord Stanley of Alderley.j Have you ever built any iron steam-boats at Bombay ? We have cut and lengthened many, but we have not built any. 1741. What is your opinion of them ; are they better for service than wooden ones ? I do not think they are better for sea-going ; but they are well adapted for river navigation. 1742. Earl of Ellenborough.] Are they more free from vermin ? They get crowded with barnacles, and it is requisite every two or three months to clean them. 1743. Are they more free from vermin within ? No ; I think they are as full within of cockroaches, and all those things. 1744. Lord Stanley of Alderley.j Does the timber of the wooden vessels suffer much from the attacks of the ant ? Not the teak-wood. 1745. Is that the only wood that resists the attacks of the ant? That is the only wood that resists them, I believe. 1746. Lord Elphinstone,] Do you use nothing but teak in the construction of the ships ? Nothing but teak. 1747. And poon trees for the masts? Yes. 1748. Are they better than masts of Norway deal ? No ; the deal are better, but t^poon is used for cheapness. 1749. Earl of Ellenborough.] Was the " Auckland " built at Bombay ? Yes. 1750. Is not she a bad sailer ? (20. 8.) She 172 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. A. Cursetjee. She is a very good vessel, but she is a large vessel with small power ; she is a 3d Mal^»853 ^^^ ^'^^ vessel, and 220 horse engine. 1751. Very narrow? She is not very narrow in proportion. 1752. Lord Elphinstone.'] Which kind of teak is the best, Malabar or Moul- mein teak ? The Malabar is very superior to the Moulmein, but the best teak is the northern. 1753. What part of the country does that come from ? From Guzerat. 1754. Lord Colchester.] Is that grown upon a drier soil than the other? Yes, I believe. 1755. Earl of Ellenborough.'] What wood was used in building the boats sent up the Indus ? All teak. 1756. How much water did they draw ? I think about a foot or 13 inches. 1757. They were about 30 tons — 1,000 maunds? About that. The Witness is directed to withdraw. ROBERT WIGRAM CRAWFORD, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows : B. W. Craiuford, 1758. Chairman.] I believe you were at the head of a house at Bombay ? Esq. I was, some years ago. 1759. In that capacity did you become acquainted with the working of the Indian Navy, the Bombay Marine Force ? I had some opportunities of observing and forming opinions upon its working, in connexion with the interest in which I was more intimately associated myself. 1760. Is that with regard to the packet service? The packet service. 1761. Earl of Ellenborough.] And the transport of goods? I can hardly say the transport of goods, for in that respect it came very little in our way; in fact, the vessels of the Indian Navy are prohibited from cari^ng goods on private account. 1762. Chairman.] Was that a hardship to the commercial classes in Bombay, or would the difficulty of the transit across the Desert prevent the transport of goods by that line ? It was a hardship to some extent. 1763. What goods would you have sent by them ; nothing but goods of great value, I suppose? Mostly goods of value, that could afford to pay the rate of freight. 1764. 'LovA Elphinstone.] Opium? A little opium might have been brought from Egypt to Bombay. 1765. Lord Ellenborough^ Did you ever send bullion ? Very little. 1766. Jewels? Jewels were occasionally forwarded, 1767. Chairman.] Would those steamers have been allowed to carry bullion? They would ; upon some occasions they did ; but the rate of freight charged for them was almost prohibitory ; it was, in point of fact, cheaper to send bullion from Suez to Point de Galle by the vessels of the Peninsular and Oriental Company, and ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 173 and to have the bullion transferred from Point de Galle to Bombay by the China R. W. Crawford, line of that Company, than to bring it from Aden to Bombay. Esq. 1768. Lord Ellenborough.] How much did they charge per cent. ? 3d March 1853. I ean hardly state that from recollection ; it is six years since I left Bombay. 1769. Chairman.'] Has not the class of vessels employed been improved since you left Bombay ? I understand they have been considerably improved. • 1 770. Have you any complaint to make of the speed with which those vessels have performed their voyages ? At the present moment the service is inefficient and unsatisfactory, as far as we have opportunities of judging here. I was on a Committee of the House of Com- mons two years ago, upon the question of the mail communication between this country and the Red Sea ; one of the arguments that was used before the Com- mittee against the carriage of the mails being entrusted to the East India Com- pany was, that in cases of emergency or of war the best vessels which have been provided for carrying on this service would be removed ; and that, it seems, is now the case, and the mails are at present carried by vessels which were considered, two or three years ago, to be unfit for the service, and which were then replaced by such vessels as the " Acbar" and the " Ferooz," which are now transferred to the service in Burmah. 1771. Till the breaking out of the last Burmese war, had you reason to com- plain of the speed 1 No ; the speed was increasing considerably. 1772. Lord Elphinstone.] Was it equal to that of the Peninsular and Oriental Company's vessels ? I think, in many instances, it was. 1 773. Generally, was it so ? Generally. 1774. Earl of Ellenborough.'] Have you ever sent goods up the Indus ? No. 1775. Do you know anything of any speculations of others up the Indus ? I know of none ; the trade which would go up the Indus is almost entirely in the hands of natives. 1776. hovA. Elphinstone.] Parsees? Parsees and other natives. 1 777. Earl of Ellenborough.] Why should that be so ? They can afford to do it cheaper. 1778. Are you aware of natives having sent the European supplies up the Indus to the camp at Ferozepore ? I have heard that they did so. 1779. They were European supplies coming from Bombay? I heard so. 1780. That was in the infancy of the navigation of the Indus, before there were steamers upon it ? Yes. 1781. Chairman.] Are there any steamers up the Indus but those supplied by the Indian Navy r None. 1782. Has the service of that force been quite effectual in putting down piracy in those seas ? Quite so. 1783. Earl of Ellenborough.] Had you any ships belonging to you ? I had several. 1784. How do you man them ? With Lascars. (20.8.) Z z 1785. Who 174 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE R. W. Cratuford, 1785. Who are properly Lascars ; what part of the world do they come from ? ^^^' I should define a Lascar to be a native seaman. 3 d March 1853- 1786. From any of those parts? From any part. 1787. Have you any Chinese as seamen ? Very few Chinese, except as carpenters, or as idlers ; Chinamen will never go aloft. 1788. Did you build your ship and man it at Bombay, or in the East, or was it a ship from Europe ? I have ovraed several ships ; some of them were built in England, and went to India ; others at Bombay ; I had three opium clippers built in England. 1789. Why did you not build them at Bombay or Calcutta? We found it answer our purpose better to have those vessels built in England. 1790. Used not those opium clippers to make better passages than the steamers ? They hardly ever came into competition. 1791. Were they not very fine sea-boats } They were very fine vessels. 1 792. Chairman.} Did they sail with a British register ? All of them. 1793. Under the manning clause were you prevented from employing more than a fourth part of foreigners in manning your vessels ? We never had occasion to investigate the operation of the manning clause in the Act of Parliament, because our seamen were almost entirely Lascars ; but if we had gone into the question very narrowly, we should probably have been beyond the limit of the Act, because a great number of the men employed as seamen are what they call Manilla men and Malays. 1794. Lord Colchester J] Are many of the Lascars men who are not natives of the East India Company's territory ? The Lascars, so called, are mostly native subjects of the East India Company; but there is a large number of men performing the duties of seamen in the ship- ping in the East who are Malays and Manilla men. 1795. Any Arabs? No Arabs that I am aware of. 1796. Chairman.} For service in those parts in time of peace, are the Lascars as valuable as Europeans ? I should think they were ; you require a greater number of Lascars, but you can victual them cheaper, and their wages are relatively cheaper. 1797. And they stand the climate better ? Yes, it is their own climate. ] 798. Earl of £llenborough.] How do they stand a heavy gale of wind ? I have seen them in a gale of wind behave exceedingly well. 1799. Do they go aloft ? Yes, as readily as European seamen. 1800. Are the subordinate ofiicers Malays also, or are they European ? In the country ships, as they are termed, there is tlie captain, and there are two, three or four European ofiicers, according to the class of vessel, and a gunner and carpenter ; the rest of the crew are a mixture of Lascars, and those Malays and Manilla men. 1801. Then you sail them cheaper, in point of wages, than if you had European crews ? In point of wages per head ; but you require to have a much greater number. 1802. Lord Colchester.] Are they hired individually, or under a serang ? They are hired under a serang, and that is the objectionable feature in the system. 1803. Earl ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 175 Eiq. 3d March 1853. 1 803. Earl of Ellenborough.] Are the native vessels from the Persian Gulf, that R. W.Cmiuford, come to Bombay, manned by Arabs ? They are owned, commanded and manned, in a very great measure, by Arabs. 1804. Are they good seamen? I am not able to answer that question. 1805. How happens it that you have never engaged Arabs as seamen, as well as other natives of the East ; is there any indisposition to employ them ? I imagine it is because they have not offered themselves for service. 1806. \jorA Broughton?^ Are there not many of them afloat in the Persian Gulf, and in the Red Sea? \"es. 1807. Earl of Ellenborough.} Are any of the serangs Arabs ? The serangs are generally men of the same caste as the seamen themselves. 1808. Have there not been several vessels burnt in the harbour of Bombay? A very great number^ 1809. To what do you attribute that } In some instances to accident or spontaneous combustion, I think ; but in the majority of instances to incendiarism. 1810. To what cause do you trace the act of the incendiary ; what inducement was there to the commission of that deed ? In one or two instances, 1 think, we traced it at the time to a revengeful feeling on the part of the Lascars on board the vessel ; but in almost every other case, it was attributed to the instigation of the Serangs, not the Serangs of the ship, but the Ghat Serangs, the crimps. 1811. What reason had they to procure the burning of the ship? The custom of the Port of Bombay compels the shipowner to pay a large advance before the vessel can get away. Those advances are paid into the hands of the Serangs, and the Serangs induce the men to set fire to the vessel ; and by that means they have them available again for another service, pocketing the money they have received. 1812. Does not the Serang give security when he receives this money in advance ? The only security that I recollect his giving was, that the men for whom he received the advance should be shipped on board the vessel. 1813. What measures have been adopted to put an end to so sad a practice as that of burning ships in harbour ? A committee was appointed by the Bombay Government, during the time I was there, of which the Advocate-general was the President. A great deal of time was bestowed by that committee upon the investigation of the subject, and it resulted in certain recommendations being made to the Supreme Government, with a view to the general improvement of the system. An Act was drafted for the purpose of carrying out those recommendations ; but the Act was sent up to the Supreme Government by the Bombay Government, and it was then, as far as we were con- cerned in Bombay, entirely lost sight of. 1814. How long ago was that ? I should think 12 years. 181 5. Have there not been many recent cases of burning ships at Bombay ? A few. They almost all occurred about the same time. 1816. Surely within the last few years there have been several instances, and at Calcutta also ? There have not been many cases of vessels burnt under the circumstances to which I have alluded at Bombay, within the last five or six years. 1817. And at Calcutta, have there also been instances ? There have been one or two cases at Calcutta. 1818. Was there not a similar committee formed at Calcutta, for the purpose of devising some means of preventing it ? (20. 8.) ^ ^^^® 176 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE R. W. Crawfordi Esq. 3d March 1853. I have been informed that there was a committee ; but I was a member of the Bombay committee myself, and therefore I can speak better as to that. 1819. What were your recommendations r I can hardly carry them in my mind at the present moment. 1820. Do you think they would be efficient, if adopted ? I was of that opinion myself very strongly. 1821. How did the men manage to escape when the ship was on fire r The Lascar is partly an amphibious animal. The ship lies not very far from the shore, and lies among 40 or 50 other vessels, and there is no difficulty in the Lascars finding their way to the shore under those circumstances. 1822. Were any other vessels, at anytime, burnt in consequence of those being set on fire ? I do not recollect any case of that kind. 1823. Lord BroughtonJ] Do you think that the mail packet service ought to continue to be performed by the Indian Navy ? Certainly not. 1824. If the Indian Navy did not perform that service, do you think there would be some danger of a monopoly falling into the hands of any great company, such as the Peninsular and Oriental Company ? I think that it might be the case at the present time ; but a year ago, the Go- vernment had the power of meeting that objection — at the time the contracts were thrown open — but the opportunity was foregone. 1825. But on other grounds, you have no doubt of the expediency of discon- tinuing the present practice of the mail packet service being performed by the Indian Navy ? As far as the public interests are concerned, I have no doubt whatever, in my own mind. 1826. Earl Powis.] Are there now any packets belonging to the Peninsular and Oriental Company running to Bombay, competing with the mail packets ? No ; the mail services are at present carried on by the Peninsular and Oriental Company, between Suez, Ceylon and Calcutta ; but the East India Company has the regular communication between Suez and Bombay on its hands. 1827. Are there any vessels belonging to the Peninsular and Oriental Com- pany that run from Suez to Bombay ? There are. 1828. How often do they run ? The arrangements of the Peninsular and Oriental Company under the new contract commenced on the 1st of January ; and I understand that application has been made by the Company to be permitted to postpone entering upon the second monthly mail, and until that is decided, I believe one is hardly able to say what the present arrangements actually are. 1829. Lord Colchester.] They commenced last January ? Yes. 1830. Earl Pozvis.] Before that time, were the mail packets the only steamers running between Suez and Bombay ? The mail packets of the East India Company, and an occasional vessel of the Peninsular and Oriental Company. 1831. Chairman.] I understand you to state that your chief objections to the employment of the Indian Navy for the purpose of carrying the mail are, first, the grievance of not being able to send goods by them ; and secondly, that in time of war the service is liable to be interrupted by the best vessels being taken away for war purposes ? Those are certainly two of the chief objections. We, the mercantile interests here, object to the Government being charged with the performance of that duty. 1832. Otherwise, in times of peace, is the service well performed ? It has been getting better of late ; but it can hardly be said to have been well performed, in point of speed and of accommodation to the passengers, till about the ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 177 the commencement of last year, when the large class of vessels to which I before alluded were brought into use. 1833. Lord Elphinsfone.] Is not the accommodation to the passengers very inferior in the ships of war to that in the steamers of the Peninsular and Oriental Company r Most inferior, indeed. 1834. Lord Broughton.] Do you think it is desirable that the mail packet service should be kept in the hands of the East India Company, or that it should be transferred to a mercantile body ? I would much rather see it in the hands of a mercantile body, provided the public were secured against the effects of the monopoly which would then exist. 1835. You think there would be no means of preventing its becoming a mo- nopoly ? Not at the present time ; because a contract was entered into last year by the Government with the Peninsular and Oriental Company, which commenced on the 1st of January last. 1836. Chairman.] Have you ever considered and formed any opinion upon the question, whether any of the other services performed by the Indian Navy would be as well performed by ships in the Queen's service ? I have no doubt tliey would be quite as well performed. 1837. You think that there is no advantage in having a strictly local force ? There may be advantages ; possibly there are some advantages. 1838. With regard to the Indus navigation, how could that be performed ? I can only speak of that from hearsay ; I have known some officers who have been employed upon the Indus ; well acquainted with some of them ; I have been led to form opinions very favourable to their character for energy, and skill and enterprise. 1839. Lord Elphinstone.] Arej'ou acquainted with Captain Powell? I know Captain Powell, personally, very well. 1840. He was in charge of the Indus flotilla lately ? He was, for some time. R. W. Crawford, Etq. 3d March 1853. 1841. I do. Lord Broughton.'] Do you know Lieutenant Ethersay ? 1842. Earl Powis.] What saving of time in the communication with Bombay do you imagine would be practicable, if commercial steamers were employed instead of the present mail packets from Suez to Bombay ? I find by advices which I received yesterday, that the vessel which took the mail from Aden to Bombay was 14 days upon the passage ; the distance is, I think, 1,650 miles. Now, at the rate of 12 knots an hour, that voyage would be performed by a powerful vessel in a very much shorter space of time ; and my im- pression is, that a vessel of that kind would always be found in the employment of a company whose interest consisted in carrying passengers and mails at a high rate of speed. 1843. Do you imagine that the rate of 12 knots an hour could be maintained as an average ? Perhaps not as an average ; but I have not the least doubt that 1 1 could. 1844. Do you suppose that the rates paid by the passengers would be reduced, or that much better accommodation would be given ? I doubt whether the rates of passage would be reduced, unless, as I before observed, you had some competition in the service. 1845. Is it likely that sufficient trade would go that way to maintain two com- panies in competition with one another ? I think not at the present moment, because there is not sufficient inducement for another company to offer its services to the public. A year ago, when another company was in existence, and they offered terms to the Government for the performance of the service, in combination with the Peninsular and Oriental Company, it might have been done ; but now I take it that no company could , (20. 8.) 3 A incur 178 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE R. W. Crawford, incur the expense of formation, the success of the scheme depending entirely upon . Esq. their getting a contract with the Government. 3d March 1853. 1846. Lord IHphinstone.] Your scheme was for having the service performed ^ alternately by the Peninsular and Oriental Company and that other company ? It was so. Under the old contract with the Government, the service was performed once a month by the Peninsular and Oriental Company ; and the new company, which was called the Eastern Steam Navigation Company, proposed that the service should be doubled, that there should be a service every fortnight ; and they proposed to undertake one of these services, and to leave the other as it was, in the hands of the Peninsular and Oriental Company ; but the contract was so arranged, that tenders might have been sent in for either the whole or a part by the two companies, who were then understood to be competing for that service, but it ended in the Government of the day giving the whole of the service to the Peninsular and Oriental Company. 1847. Was not the tender of the Peninsular and Oriental Company much lower than that of the Eastern Steam Navigation Company ? That is a vexed question. I happened to be Chairman of the Eastern Steam Navigation Company, and we maintained at the time, and maintain now, that our offer was practically cheaper than the other, for one service in the month. 1848. Chairman.] Are there any suggestions, which have not been extracted by the examination, with reference to the Indian Navy, which you think you can make with advantage ? I was not aware till this morning that I was likely to attend here as a witness to-day, and I have not been able to give the subject that consideration which I should otherwise have done ; therefore I had better say that I am not prepared to make any suggestions. 1849. Earl of Harrowby.] Had you occasion, when you were in India, to con- sider the subject of increasing the supply of cotton ? Yes, a great deal of occasion. 1850. You went into it as a practical merchant ? I did. 1851. What, in your opinion, was the principal obstacle to the increase of the supply ? My opinion, as regards the supply of cotton from the interior of the country, by which I mean the Deccan and the Berar country, was, that the great obstacle was the imperfect system, or rather the want of any system at all, of inland commu- nication. 1852. At present the carriage is by bullocks, is it not ? Entirelv. Entirely, 1853. Can you have any idea of the proportion of the price paid at Bombay which would be due to the carriage ? 1 am unable to state it at this moment, but I can very easily refresh my memory, for I happened to be a witness before a Committee of the House of Commons which sat upon the subject in 1848; I was examined at considerable length at that time, and I went into a great deal of minute detail upon that subject. 1854. Had you given much attention to the subject while you were in India? Before I left Bombay, in the year 1846, I prevailed upon the Government to issue a Commission for the purpose of investigating the subject, which was done ; and, to a very great extent, I worked it myself : I myself prepared a great part of the report, which was eventually presented to the Bombay Government, and published as a Parliamentary Paper, by Order of the House of Commons, in 1847. 1855. Is the whole of what you would have to offer upon this subject comprised in that document, which is already before Parliament, or have you any additional information ? I can hardly say that I have much additional information to offer, 1856. Nothing ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 179 1856. Nothing has happened since which has modified your impressions, or added materially to your information upon the subject ? Nothing. 1857. Do you look with anxiety to the extension of railway communication in the direction which it is now taking in Bombay ? I do : I think that when railway communication is extended into the cotton dis- tricts it will open up an immense source of supply, and it will enable the cotton of India to compete very successfully with the cotton of America. 1858. You reckon that, the expense of carriage is the principal drawback to the Indian cotton ? Yes ; I went, upon the occasion to which I have referred, into considerable detail as to the proportion that the expense of carrying cotton down from the interior to Bombay bears to the whole value ; and I am perfectly satisfied that if we had the means existing for bringing cotton down speedily and cheaply without its being subject to the deterioration which it now undergoes, there would then be an inducement to the cultivators of cotton in the interior to prepare it for the Bombay market to an extent which does not exist now at all. 1859. Lord Colchester. \ Is the quality of the Indian cotton as good as the American ? No, the quality is not so good. 1860. Lord Elpkinstone.] Is not the mode of preparing it very inferior to the American ? It is : it arises from there being no such constant demand for the Indian cotton here as there is for American cotton, because the price of cotton from Jndia is always ruled by the price of American cotton. 1861. Earl o{ Harrowbi/.l Have you any doubt that if there were greater facility of intercourse with the interior of the country by railway, other improve- ments in the cultivation of the cotton would naturally follow ? I have not the least doubt of it. I may illustrate that by reference to an article which has now become a very important article of commerce in India, that is lin- seed : I recollect several years ago purchasing a large quantity of linseed ; I sent it to Hull ; it paid very well ; but out of the whole cost of it on board ship at Bombay, about from 30 to 40 per cent, was the expense of bringing it from the interior. 1862. Would not the per-centage be still higher with regard to cotton from Berar ? I cannot say the exact proportion at this moment. 1863. Chairman.'] When you say that the expense of bringing it from the inte- rior was 30 to 40 per cent, upon the cost, was that upon the whole cost of bringing it to Hull or to Bombay ? To Bombay. 1864. Marquess of Salisburt/.'] How much would it be upon the cost to Hull? That must be in a great degree variable, because the rates of freight from India to this country vary so much. 18G5. Lord Elpkinstone.} The East India Company sent some American cotton planters to the cotton districts of India, with the view of teaching the natives to cultivate and clean it much better than it used to be done ; do you know whether any success has attended that experiment ; is there a better kind of cotton pre- pared now ? A better kind of cotton has been prepared, no doubt. 1866. Earl oi Ellenborough.] Do you mean that the cotton is better prepared, or that a better sort of cotton is produced r Both. 1867. What machine do they use for cleaning the cotton now r The churka, generally ; the old common churka. 1868. Lord Broughton.] Do not they use the American gin now ? Tlie American gin has been introduced to a considerable extent ; I myself imported a considerable number from a first-rate manufacturer in Philadelphia. (20.8.) 1569. Earl R. W. Craiuford, Esq. 3d March 1853. IBO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE R. W. Crttiiford, Esq. 3d March 1853. 1869. Earl of Ellenboroy.gh.'] Did you distribute them over the country ? The Government took them off my hands, 1870. What number of them were there ? I should think there must have been from 20 to 30 at different times, of various sizes ; some for use by the hand, and others by animal power. 1871. Were any manufactured in India from those models ? I do not know. 1872. Lord Stanley of Alderley.J Do you think they were an improvement on the native machine for cleaning cotton ? A great improvement ; no doubt of it. 1873. Earl of Harrowby.] Have you considered whether it would be worth while for the Indian Government, having no surplus, to borrow money for the purpose of improving the internal communication ? Speaking in a general way, I should think it would be. 1874. At what rate of interest could they borrow money ? It depends upon whether they borrow it in India or here ; if repayable in this country, they could borrow it here at 3 1 per cent. 1875. And you believe that it would remunerate them well to improve the internal communications, borrowing money for the purpose at the rate of 3| per cent, r I have no doubt that it would in the long run. 1876. If they borrowed it in India, at what rate of interest would it be? Taking the last quoted prices of their loans in India, they could borrow it at a rate very little above 4 per cent., say 44. 1877. Do not you believe that it would pay them 10 or 20 per cent, to institute improvements in the internal communication of the country ? I cannot say what it would pay them, but I have no doubt it would lead to a very large accession of revenue. 1878. Have you ever gone into the interior, to parts of the country where you have been able to see the effect produced by irrigation ? No. 1879. Earl of EUenborough.] The India cotton which is imported is now very inferior to the American cotton ? It is inferior to the American cotton. 1880. It bears a much lower price in the market ? It does ; but still I believe that, taking the average of the cotton that is imported from India, it is of sufficiently good quality to produce material for at least one- half of the yam spun in this country. 1881. Eaxl oi Harrowby.] Is there not a large demand of cotton for inferior purposes ? There is a very large demand for cotton of that quality. 1882. Marquess of Salisbury,] But it does not supersede the American ? No ; I suppose it never will supersede the American. 1883. Is the difference owing to climate or to soil ? Probably to both. 1884. Earl of Ellenborough.] Have you ever seen the cultivation of cotton in the most approved manner ? I have never seen cotton under cultivation. 1885. Does it come now to Bombay in a very dirty state, full of dust ? I have seen it come in all sorts of states. That which comes from the Deccan is brought upon bullocks' backs in one string, consisting of several hundred bullocks, every one with his nose upon the end of his predecessor's cotton bag, eating its contents, and at night those bags are thrown off the beasts' backs, and they lie exposed to the dews, rolled in the dirt and dust, and collecting all manner of dirt. 1886. What ON THE GOVERNMENT OF IXDIAN TEREITORIKS. 181 1886. What do you do with them when they arrive at Bombay ; do you clean them or send them home in that dirty state ? The cotton-bags are brought to Bombay, and are piled upon what used to be called Bombay green ; the purchasers of cotton purchase it, of course, by samples ; they select the cotton from the sellers' stocks upon the green, according to the samples ; the cotton is then carried into the screw-houses, where it is packed, under the superintendence of the servants of the buyers, who are of course enjoined by their masters to take care to separate the good from the bad, and to pack it accordingly. 1887. Is not it subjected to very severe pressure in order to make the package as small as possible ? Very severe pressure. 1888. Does not that injure the fibre ? It has been said to do so. 1889. Earl of Harrowhy.] If the cotton were clean, the injury from the pressure would not be considerable? No ; after all, it becomes a question of expense ; you may deteriorate the quality to a certain extent, by applying that extreme pressure to it, but you effect a much greater saving in the expense of bringing the cotton to this country. 1890. Lord Stanley of Alderley.J In re-packing the cotton is there any attempt made to clean it from any of its impurities ? Yes, a great deal of attempt is made, but not in a minute way ; it is only done in a very general way, that is to say, such things are removed from it as the hand can take. 1891. Earl of Ellenborough ] "Would it not be advisable to clean it thoroughly with a saw-gin, so as to send it to England in a perfectly pure state, in which it would occupy much less space, and not be injured by pressure ? As in the former case, it becomes a question of relative cost; it may be cheaper to ship the cotton to this country in times of low freights, and to trust to the superior skill and machinery of this country to clean it here. 1892. Have you ever seen the cotton under the process of being cleaned ? I have, but more as an amateur than any thing else. 1893. Have you ever seen any cotton which had been cultivated with great care in a garden, and have you seen the produce of that cotton ? I have growa it myself under those circumstances. 1894. What price has that cotton fetched in the English market? I have sent it home here, and it has borne a fanciful price. 1895. Has it not borne as good a price as the American ? Quite. 1896. Marquess of Salisbury.] Is there not some peculiarity in the American cotton which does not belong to the Indian cotton ? In some kinds of American cotton there is; in the case of Sea Island cotton its quality is referable to certain considerations connected with the climate, the soil, and the atmosphere of the Sea Islands upon which it is grown. 1897. Earl of Harrouby.] Is it not the fact that it is only a small proportion of that superior quality which is required for the market ? A very small quantity indeed. 1898. Earl Pozois.] What distance has the cotton to travel to Bombay? From 300 to 400 miles. 1899. How long is it usually on the journey ? About three months. 1900. At what portions of the year can it be carried, owing to the state of the roads, and the floods, and the streams ? • The cotton in the Deccan attains maturity about' the month of January. The periodical rains, which prevent all communication of that kind in the interior, set in at the latter end of May, so that that throws the whole carriage of the cotton (20. 8.) 3 B intended R. W. Craiaford, Esq. 3d March 1853. 182 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE R. W. Cramford, intended to serve the market for the year, into the three months between January ■E'?- and May. 3d March 1853. 1 901 . Is any portion of that 300 miles of road practicable for wheeled carriages ? I believe a carriage-road has been made over a very considerable portion of it. 1902. Earl of Harrowby.] Do you suffer any inconvenience from the practice of the East India Company of making advances upon the hypothecation of goods? I can hardly say that I have suffered personal inconvenience from it, but I have, in common with others, shared in the prejudicial effects upon commerce generally which that course has engendered. 1903. Do you conceive that the practice is now upon a satisfactory footing in that respect ? Quite so ; I think it cannot be upon a better footing. The East India Com- pany now inform the commercial public at a certain time of the year what their financial wants are likely to be in the course of the year, and they intimate that it is their intention to supply themselves with funds by drawing upon India during the course of the following year. 1904. Are you aware whether the East India Company has suffered any incon- venience from any combination against it to lower the price of exchange ? Very far from it ; during the last year thai has passed to the present time, the Company have been receiving a very high rate of exchange. 1905. Earl of Elknborough.] Have you ever remitted bullion to England? I have sent a great deal of bullion both ways ; both from India home, and from this countrv to India. 1906. At how much per cent, can you remit it, including interest, freight, and every charge ? It would cost about four per cent., all charges paid. 1907. Ear) Powis.'] What is the character of the country from the Deccan to Bombay ; is it level, so that a railway might easily be laid down over it ? The Deccan is an elevated tract of land about 1,800 to 2,000 feet above the level of the sea; its highest point is upon the summit of the Ghauts, which run parallel to the western shore of India, at a distance of 50 to 100 miles, and all traffic between the coast and the Deccan has to pass over this range of Ghauts. 1908. Earl of Elknborough. '\ The best cotton comes from Oomrawatee, does it not ? Not the best cotton brought to Bombay, but the best cotton from the Deccan. 1909. Lord Elphinstone.] Which is the best cotton brought to Bombay? That which comes from the Guzerat districts. 1910. Where was the experimental American farm ? The Company had an experimental farm in the neighbourhood of Broach ; they had also a similar establishment in Candeish, and another in the southern Mahratta country. 1911. Lord Stanley of Alderley.j What success did they meet with ? They have sent home some very fine samples of cotton ; but the financial results of the expenditure I have no means ot stating. 1912. But as proving the possibility of producing a fine sample of cotton, in India they completely succeeded ? Yes. 1 f>13. Lord Broughton.] Have not those experimental farms been abandoned ? They have. 1914. Lord Stanley of Alderley.j Has the mode of cultivation which they pursued induced any of the natives to follow similar methods ? • I am afraid not. 1915. Chairman.] Is the cotton an uncertain crop? No, it'is not an uncertain crop ; it is affected by the frost very easily. I remember in the cold weather of 1 835, there was a very severe frost, which destroyed the greater part of the cottOn crops in the Guzerat district. . 1916^ Lord ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 183 1916. Lord Ellenborough.] Your chief export of cotton is to China, is not it ? Jt. w. Crawford, It varies very much ; I dare say that upon the average as much is sent to -E«i7- China as to this country. , „ — l" „ •' 3d March 1853. 191 7. Is not more sent to China ? - Sometimes I have known the greater part of the season's export go to China, and sometimes I have known the greater part of it come to England. 1918. Does not the inferior cotton suit the China market ? . No ; I think it is rather the reverse ; it is the better kind of cotton that suits the China market. 1919. But you are now literally importing into this country a cotton which sells at a much lower price than the American, because it is dirty, and has been badly cultivated, and for no other reason ? Those are two very considerable reasons why it is so. ] 920. Earl of Harrowby.] Would not the native get a better price for his cotton if less of the price which it fetches at Bombay were consumed in the transit ? Undoubtedly. 1921. Chairman.] Who finds the money for the land-carriage in India; do you buy it when arrived at Bombay ? We generally buy it on the spot in Bombay. In the case of the cotton from Guzerat, the carriage is of no account at all ; it comes by boat a distance of 250 miles, and it is conveyed at a very insignificant cost. 1922. Is there an intermediate dealer between you and the grower.'' There are half a dozen people between the grower and the buyer. 1923. ^SivX oi Ellenhorough.] Have any Europeans established themselves in the interior, in the same way that the indigo planters have done, for the purpose of cultivating cotton ? No, that has not been the case. 1924. Is not the Guzerat cotton better than the Oomrawatee ? It is a better cotton. 1 925. Is it not supposed that better cotton may be raised near the coast than anywhere else ? it has been tried with considerable success in gardens. 1926. Is it not supposed that the Indian cotton, properly cultivated, is better cotton than the American cotton cultivated in India — that it suits the climate better ? I have heard practical people say so. 1927. Lord Elphinstone.] Is the staple of the Indian cotton as long as that of the Sea Island cotton ? No. 1928. Does not that make a considerable difference in the price? That is not an important point ; the staple is of very little consequence : you may have a staple too long as well as too short. 1929. Lord Wynford.'] But not for the very fine numbers ? No ; the very fine numbers require a long staple. 1930. Earl of Harroxvby.'] Are not the very fine numbers in very limited demand ? They are in very limited demand, as compared with the coarse. 1 931 . Earl oi Ellenborough. ~\ Do not you think that to improve the cotton culti- vation of India,, so as to be able to bring it here of a quality and at a price equal to the American, and thus practically to supplant a large part of the American supply of cotton, is one of the most important objects that can be aimed at ? I have no wish myself to supplant the American commerce in cotton with this country, because it would re-act upon us ; but 1 think there is abundant room to raise a large quantity in India, and to bring it to this country, in addition to the American Supply. (20.8.) 1932. Would 184 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 8. R. W. Crawford, Eiq. 3d March 1853. 1932. Would it not be of great importance to us to be independent of America for the supply of cotton ? It would be most important, for some considerations. 1933. Chairman.] Do you believe that any supply of cotton from India that can be imagined would be taken up, and consumed in this country } I believe that any quantity of cotton, of a suitable quality for the consumption of this country, that India could send, would be taken ; of course at a price. 1934. Lord Broughton.] Are you not aware that there are several persons who have applied their minds to this subject, and who do not think that the cultivation of cotton in India is of the very great importance which is generally ascribed to it ? I am quite aware that there are some persons who entertain those opinions. 1935. Marquess of Salisbury.] Do you know anything about Egyptian cotton ? Very little ; I have seen it here. 1936. Is it likely to come into competition with the Indian ? There is a very large supply of Egyptian cotton here. 1937. Is it better prepared than the Indian? It bears a higher price here, in consequence of the superior quality. 1938. Earl Powis.] Would the cotton cultivation be very profitable to the occupier of the soil in India ; would it be more profitable than other kinds of cultivation ? In the Deccan there are very large tracts of land which are now uncultivated, and which are quite capable of producing good crops of cotton ; and if the culti- vators of the cotton grown there had the power of sending it down to Bombay, I have no doubt they would derive very great benefit from it ; but in the case of Guzerat, where the whole of the land has been under cultivation for a series of centuries, I doubt whether the growth of cotton can be extended there, because it takes its place with a variety of other products in the rotation of crops. 1939. How long does the Indian cotton plant last ? I think it is an annual plant. 1940. Is it grown always on the same ground, or in rotation with other crops? I cannot speak very practically upon the subject ; but my impression is, that it is grown by rotation, and that upon each ground another crop is grown with it. 1941. Do you know how often the cotton crop comes in the rotation ? I think it is every second year. 1942. Lord Stanley of Alderley.J Are you at all acquainted with the cultivation of sugar in India ? Not at all. Perhaps one of the best authorities upon the cultivation of cotton in India is Colonel Monier Williams's Report on the Zillah of Broach, made to the Bombay Government on or about the year 1817. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday, Two o'clock. 9. {Private and Confidential.) Select Committee on the Government of Indian Territories. EVIDENCE OF Rear- Admiral Sir Thomas Herbert, K.C.B., M.P. - - p. 185 General the Right Honourable Henry Viscount Hardinge, G.C.B. - - - - - - - - - p. 187 8th March 185.3. [Great inconvenience having arisen from the Publication of Minutes of Evidence taken before Committees, and of Papers, &c. laid before them, it is particularly requested, that Peers receiving such Minutes and Papers will be careful that they are confined to the object for which they are printed, the special use of the Lords appointed on such Commiltees.] (20. 9.) ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 185 Die Martis, 8° Martii 1853. LORDS PRESENT: The LoED Peesident. Marquess of Salisbuey. Earl of Albemarle. Earl Graham. Earl Powis. Earl of EliLENBOROUGH. Viscount Canning. Viscount Hardin GE. Viscount GouGH. Lord Elphinstone. Lord Colchester. Lord Wharncliffe. Lord Wynford. Lord ASHBURTON. Lord Stanley of Alderley. Lord MoNTEAGLE of Brandon. Lord Broughton. THE LORD PRESIDENT in the Chair. Evidence on the REAR-ADMIRAL SIR THOMAS HERBERT, K.C.B., a Member of the f^XnTrHt"!;, House of Commons, is examined as follows : Indian Territories. 1943. Chairman.'] YOU have commanded in the Indian Seas ? Rear- Admiral I was in the Indian Seas, and had a detached command there in China. Sv Thomas Herbert, A. C x>. 1944. Durinff that time had you any opportunity of becoming acquainted with „ the Indian Navy ? 8thMarcM853. During the two years I was there, I had frequently some of their vessels under my orders, and was in company with them. 1945. As Chairman of this Committee, I communicated with Sir William Parker on the subject of the Indian Navy, but, owing to some private reason, it is inconvenient to him to attend here as a witness ; he stated to me that he had bad a portion of the Indian Navy under his command during the China war, and that he found theiu very gallant and very willing ; that he had abstained from any examination of their internal administration ; but that if the question were put to him, whether he considered them as efficient as the naval force in Her Majesty's service, perhaps, owing to a prejudice in favour of the force to which he himself belonged, he should say that they did not reach that standard ; is that your own opinion, or not ? As to their reaching that standard, that is merely matter of opinion ; the vessels that happened to be under me were small vessels ; there was not anything very large ; the " Acbar" was one of the largest, and there were the " Auckland," tlie " Queen," the " Nemesis," and the "Madagascar;" those were vessels of about 700 or 800 tons, mounting from two to six guns ; those vessels, when they went into action, I found to be effective in every way ; they were most active and most zealous, and on every occasion I felt great confidence in them, as much almost as I would in a vessel of the same power belonging to ourselves. 1946. Did any jealousy at all exist between the officers of that force and the officers of Her Majesty's service ? Not the least, as far as we were concerned ; between the Queen's forces and tie Company's forces there appeared to be none, as far as concerned the vessels imme- diately under me; I found a willingness on the part of the Company's officers to be placed under our orders. (20.9.) 3C 1947. Earl 186 MINUTKS OF EVIDEiVCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Rear- Admiral 1947. Earl oi Ellenlorough.'\ They naturally felt proud at serving with the SirThomas Herbert, l{oyal Navy, and were desirous of showing they were worthy of it? ' * Yes ; there was a perfect good feeling ; they said, '• We are delighted to be 8th March 1853. under you ; only tell us what we are to do, and we shall be willing to do it." In fact, they felt pleasure in the service, and frequently expressed it to me. 1948. Chairman.'] Are you aware of the rate of pay allotted to the officers and men in that service ? No ; J have only a cursory recollection of it. 1949. Did the rate of pay they got appear to you to be exorbitant? I do not know the rate of pay ; my attention was to their effectiveness ; and, as often as I could, when the vessels were going into action, I went on board of them to inspect their preparation for battle, and always found their arrangements good, and the vessels in every respect fit for service. 1950. Had you the Indian allowances when you were in China? Yes, I had. 1951. Were they allowed by the Indian Government ? They were. 1952. That is not usually the case in time of peace, is it ? Always ; the custom in India was that, when you came within a certain district under the Indian command, you got batta, a certain sum that was given : the Commander-in-Chief got so much ; a Captain got so much ; a Commander got so much ; and a Lieutenant got so much ; and I believe it is continued to this day. 1953. Hi-drl of Ellenborough.] Do you think that at the present momenta ship employed upon the China station, or between that and Australia and New Zealand, would receive the Indian allowances r Not in New Zealand. 1954. Would she in China? When I was in China we got it ; whether they do now, I cannot say. 1955. While you were in China, all the allowances were fixed for the Govern- ment of India on the part of the Crown ? Yes. 1 956. The station is now divided into two, is it not ; there is a Commodore on the Indian station, and an Admiral on the China station ? Yes ; but still it is under one command. 1957. But, excepting under peculiar circumstances, the Admiral would not come to the westward of Singapore ? No; but still they are under orders. As far as New Holland is concerned, and Australia, that is a separate command. There is a Commodore at New Zealand now who is not under the Indian command. 1958. Chairman.'] Are you at all acquainted with the navigation of the Indus ? Not very much ; in fact, the navigation of the Indus is such, it changes so frequently, that you may go one day with a very good pilot, and in the course of a month afterwards you may want something else. 1959. Do you know whether the duties imposed upon the Indian Navy, with reference to the navigation of the Indus, are satisfactorily performed ? I never heard to the contrary. 1960. Earl of Ellenboroitffh.] As the river changes so very rapidly, would it not be desirable to have pilots placed at very short distances ? No doubt ; it should be so arranged that it may come within a man's scope, so that he may have a local knowledge of it almost every day. 1961. Every five or six miles ? Such a distance that a man can work it up and down in the course of a day ; one general pilot would not do for the whole of the Indus. 1962. Chairman.'] ON THE GOVEFiNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 187 1962. Chairman.] Would the present traffic upon the Indus justify so numerous Rear-Admiral a staff of pilots ? SirThomas Herbert, . K O H That is a question upon which I cannot speak. ' ' ' 1963. Was your attention called to the manner in which the service performed ___^^1__ ^' the duties of the packet service between Bombay and Aden ? Nothing more than merely from general report ; I cannot speak from any per- sonal knowledge of it. 1964. Are you at all acquainted with the pilotage system at Calcutta? I know nothing but that the pilotage requires to be particularly skilful, and they have very good pilots there. 1965. You do not know the charges made for the pilotage ? No, I know nothing of the charges. 1966. Nor the amount of expense that it is to the Government to support it? Not the least. 1967. Earl of EllenboroughJ] Were you ever at Calcutta in a man-of-war ? Yes, I was there many years ago. 1968. Did your ship work easily ? Yes. 1969. Rapidly? Yes. 1970. Did not the pilot frighten you very much, or was not he very much frightened? Yes ; the pilot appeared always frightened, when the ship was working and tacking ; for he was not at all prepared for the rapidity of the evolution, was astonished at it, and very anxious till the vessel got round upon the proper tack. The Witness is directed to withdraw. GENERAL the Right Honourable HENRY VISCOUNT HARDINGE, General G. C. B., a Member of the Committee, is examined as follows : Viscount Hardinge, G, C. JB. 1971. WILL you be so good as to state to the Committee how long you held the office of Governor-General of India ? I landed at Calcutta in July 1844, and I left Calcutta in January 1848 ; I was there about three years and a half. 1972. You held that office during the Sikh invasion? I did. 1793. Therefore you were able to judge of the efficiency of the Native troops in the field ? I had frequent opportunities. 1974. What is your general opinion as to their efficiency? My opinion is, that they are a very efficient army ; and they have one admirable peculiarity, that from year's end to year's end they are either under tents or in huts, so that you are able at any moment to move against any enemy, provided there be the necessary public or hired cattle. 1975. What is your opinion as to the proportion of European officers to the Native troops at present ? My opinion is, that a larger proportion would probably be advantageous ; but I confess that, if it be carried much further, the expense will be so heavy that it will very seriously increase the military charge of India upon the finances of the country. 1976. Can you give the Committee any general idea of the increase of charge which that would involve ? It depends upon what the increase is to be. If, as some encourage the idea, (20. 9.) 3 D the 188 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE General the number of European officers, with a Native regiment, should be the same as Viscount Hardinge, with a European regiment, then the expense would be very heavy indeed. I pre- G.Q^. sume the Committee have it already in evidence that the European officers of one 8th March 1853. ^^ ^®^" Majesty's regiments cost 20,000 /. a year, and that the European officers of a Native regiment cost 10,000 I. a year, as at present constituted : if you were to double them, they would cost about the same as a European regiment. There are 74 regiments in Bengal, whichj at an increase of 10,000 I. each, would be 74,000 /. a year, besides the armies of the two other Presidencies, and the dead weight of pensions and retiring allowances, which would cost as much more : but probably it is not intended to go so far as that. If you were to endeavour to make them more effective by increasing the number of officers, and at the same time manage it with economy, the way in which I think it might be done would be by increasing the number of Captains : there are now six European Captains and 15 Subalterns in a Native regiment. If you were to increase the Subalterns, you would at once increase the weak part of the Company's service in India, which is slowness of promotion, owing to the seniority system. The proportion of European officers ought always to be as it is in the Queen's service, one Captain to two Subalterns ; nowthe])roportionis six Captains to 15 Subalterns, where it ought to be 12; therefore, an increase in the number of Captains, without increasing the number of Subalterns, would be, in ray opinion, the best thing that could be done ; it would hasten promotion in the Native army, and you would obtain one officer in a regiment more than you now have ; that is one mode of obtaining an increase of officers. But the real fact is, that by the present system of taking away officers from the regiments for political and staff employments, the regiment is deprived of its best officers, and those that remain are frequently not of the best qualitv. Even if there were an increase of one Captain a regiment in addition, it would, I admit, be a very doubtful remedy in securing regimental efficiency, although an expensive one. 1977. What is your opinion with respect to establishing a Staff corps? I believe that plan has been suggested ever since Lord Hastings' time. The papers are now in the East India House, but not acted upon, because it was sup- posed that it would be impossible to work it satisfactorily. Other remedies of the same nature have been brought forward, which, when they came to be discussed as to the more practical working of such a system, were found would not answer. , 1978. During that time it has been very carefully considered ? It has been very carefully considered. For the sake of the European officers of the Indian army, I am extremely anxious that, whatever may be the increase of European officers, it should be made upon just grounds of the proportions that ought to exist between the higher to the lower grades. It is now not on a just ground of proportion ; the number of Subalterns is too numerous for the. number of Captains. If you make any increase, I should recommend that it should be made in the Captains, and not in the Subalterns. I felt that so strongly, that within the last month I have made a suggestion to the Board of Control, from what I know and have seen of the Queen's service in India, where the promotion is slower than in any of Her Majesty's Colonies, whereas it ought to be quicker, and consequently causes dissatisfaction that a larger proportion of Captains to Subalterns should be allowed. When a regiment in the Queen's service goes to India, 10 extra Subalterns are immediately added to make it up to 30 instead of 20 ; the consequence is, that the period at which a Subaltern can obtain his Company is increased one-third. And the remedy I have recommended to the Board of Control is, that the number of Captains in a Queen's regiment should be 12 Captains to 10 Companies, and that six Subalterns should be struck off from a Queen's regiment. By that arrangement there would be 24 Subalterns and 12 Captains, making two Subalterns to each Captain. Now that is nearer the proportion in a Company's European regiment, in which there are 12 Captains to lb Companies and 30 Subalterns. The effect of my proposal will be, that promotion in Her Majesty's service would be increased, without impairing the efficiency of the Queen's regiments in India. Instead of saddling each regiment with 10 additional Subalterns the moment it goes to India, it would put them on a fair footing as regards promotion with the rest of the army ; viz. one Captain to ^wo Subalterns. 1979. Earl ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 189 ] 979. Earl of Ellenborough.'] There would be a reduction in the total number General of officers in each regiment ? Viscount Hanimge, There would be six Subalterns reduced and two Captains added, and four J L officers less in the regiment ; and by so doing there would be eventually a saving 8th March 1853. to the public purse of 15,000/. or 16,000 /. a year. — 1980. Lord Monteagle of Brandon] It would be a diminution of the amount of contingent payment by the East India Company in aid of the Queen's service ? It would be a saving to the Company of about 16,000/., not immediately, but ultimately. The Hoise Guards would merely lose the appointment of six out of the 10 additional Subalterns now added on a Queen's Infantry regiment going to India. 1981. Earl Powis.] Under that arrangement, how would the Subalterns be divided ; how many Ensigns and how many Lieutenants ? The Lieutenants would always predominate, as is the case now. 1982. Are there many officers in the Company's service taken away from their regiments to command irregular corps ? Yes. 1983. Besides those who are takfen off for political or civil service ? Yes. « 1984. Would it be possible to adopt a system similar to that of seconding the Artillery and Engineers, so that an officer when appointed to an irregular corps should retain his precedence as a Lieutenant or Captain, so as to rise in his regiment ; and at the same time an additional officer should be put' to serve with the regiment, in order to keep the regiment efficient ? Then that must be done by selecting that officer from another regiment, and temporarily employing him in the regiment, otherwise if you were to seconde these officers permanently upon those regiments requiring officers, there would be a disarrangement of the proportions now existing between the different ranks. It would be very difficult to seconde officers in any regiment in the way proposed, unless they were merely lent for the moment from other regiments, so as not to disturb the proportions now existing between the grades of each regiment. 1985. Earl Graham.] You said that many officers are taken away from their regiments for political situations, and that, consequently, it often happens that many of the officers that remain are not of the best description ; is it not often the case that officers are so long upon Staff appointments, that when they come to be Field Officers of the regiment, having done no duty with the regiment for many years, they are both unknown to the men, and not very capable of per- forming regimental duty ? I should say that if they are taken away as Subalterns from the regiment, it may be so ; but with regard to Captains and Field Officers, when a man has served twenty and even eight-and -twenty years before he is made a Captain, he will of course know the duties of his regiment very perfectly : a Captain may be a Captain at 30 years of age or 40. If be is then taken away for political employ- ment, when he is brought back as a Field Officer, he can scarcely be very much impaired in his knowledge of the service ; he may not be quite so ready on a field-day as another officer, but I should not say that his powers of command are diminished. Very frequently the information which men acquire as Staff Officers and as Political Agents, and the part they have to take in greater concerns than the mere care of a Company, tends to open their minds, and to make them upon the whole better officers for general purposes than if they had remained all the time with their regiments. 1986. Earl oi Ellenborough.] Does not the power of a man to command a Native regiment depend very much upon his knowledge of the men, and their confidence in him r Certainly it does ; at the same time, the officers who remain with the regiments, according to the present system, are generally those who may have been con- sidered least fit for the higher situations to which the Staff and Political Agents are appointed ; the Government always selects the best men for those situations ; that is one of the evils which must exist under the present system. I may mention one instance in corroboration of my opinion : one of our best Company's (20. 9.) officers 190 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE General officers is Sir Walter Gilbert ; he scarcely has ever done a day's duty as Captain Viscount liardin'ye, of a regiment ; he was a Staff Officer, employed during the time of Lord Hastings ; G. C. li. he came to England, and remained in England 12 or 15 years, and then returned to — ~ India as a General Officer, and a better officer than Sir Walter Gilbert does not exist t Axc 1 5 3. j^ ^^^ Company's army. I do not say that that which occurred in his case would occur in other instances, but I merely mention it as a fact. I might mention also Sir George Murray, of the Queen's service ; I believe he never had any higher regimental command than that of a Company, nor had Fitzroy Somerset, two of the most distinguished officers in the army. 1987. Earl Po»w.] Of what rank are the officers commanding the Irregular corps usually ? "They are generally Subalterns, or Captains. 1988. Lord Elphinstone.'] Would not the fact of having held the command of an Irregular corps be rather an advantage to an officer commanding a Regular regi- ment ? No doubt of it ; it would be one means of getting rid of some of the difficulty of this question, if an officer of suitable rank could be exchanged from an Irregular corps to a Regular corps, and take the command of that Regular corps, having obtained brevet rank for his services : it is most important that a Regular corps should be more effective in the field than an Irregular corps. 1 989. Chairman.'] From the opportunities you have had of seeing the artillery in the field, what should you say of the efficiency of that force ? I think it is as excellent an artillery force as any that exists ; very efficient in all its qualifications, both scientific and practical. 1990. Lord Elphinstone.] We have had it in evidence before the Committee, that the proportion of Horse Artillery is greater than is necessary, and that it would be an advantage to reduce the proportion of the Horse Artillery in order to give a larger proportion of officers to the battalions ? I think there would be an advantage in having more 9-pounder guns to the Horse Artillery generally than now exists: there are 13 troops of Horse Artillery in Bengal, with 6-pounders, that is 78 guns. The field batteries are all 9-pounders; I think I horsed four bullock batteries to make them more efficient ; when these batteries took the field, I arranged with the Commander-in-Chief that each field battery should have 130 horses instead of 98 ; and they were very efficient during the whole campaign ; casualties were immediately filled up. With regard to the Horse Artillery, I think the proportion of 9-pounder troops ought to be largei'. Lord Ellenborough had intended, before I went to India, by a minute, to recommend the adoption of 9-pounder troops : I looked at the proposed measure with Sir George Pollock, who was an artillery officer and a member of Council, and we came to the conclusion that it would be proper to give the plan a practical trial as soon as possible, by raising a 9-pounder troop of Horse Artillery ; that troop of 9-pounder Horse Artillery was commanded by Lieutenant-colonel Alexander, an excellent officer. It was tried, and did good service during the Sutlege campaign ; and I have read, that after the decisive battle of Guzerat, when General Gilbert was ordered by Lord Gough to pursue the Sikh army, he took with him that 9-pounder troop of Horse Artille];y, and also some 6-pounder troops of Horse Artillery ; and I saw letters which described what had passed upon that occasion ; that Sir Walter Gilbert was obliged, when he was pursuing the enemy with his Cavalry, and overtook them near Attock, to leave behind the 9-pounder troop of Horse Artillery, -with the Infantry, and to go on with his 6-pounders, because the 9-pounders could not keep up with the Cavalry so well as the 6-pounders. I believe he came up with the enemy at Attock with his 6-pounders, and prevented the enemy burning the bridge ; so that we must not lose sight of the fact, that although a 9-pounder is a much better gun than a 6-pounder in most cases, yet that a light 6-pounder troop of Horse Artillery has advantages where Cavalry is concerned, which in India renders it of use ; but my own impression is, that the proportion of 6-pounders at present is too great ; and I should prefer to have more 8-pounder Horse Artillery as well as the Field Batteries. I do not think that Field Batteries would be sufficiently active in such undertakings as those upon which General Gilbert was employed, because the greater proportion of the gunners, nearly the whole, are obliged to walk on foot. Another arrangement made by Lord Ellenborough, which I recollect, with regard to ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 191 General Viscount Hardinge, G.C.B. to the Artillery, was, that some heavy 9-pounders should be bored out to be 12-pounders, and they did remarkably well at Sobraon. 1991. Lord Elphinstone.] Do you approve of the Bengal system of Horse Artillery, putting a man upon each horse, or do you prefer the detachment system ? 8th March 1853, I prefer the detachment system ; I never could understand why, when the off- horse is burdened with a driver 15 or 16 stone weight, the battery can be more efficient in a long day's march over a deep sandy plain ; I can understand that in certain cases, which are rare, where the horse has to get up hill, or to get through a difficulty, and where the extra weight put upon him may aid him in getting the gun out of a particular difficulty; but if a horse is marching upon a sandy plain 25 miles a day, 1 cannot appreciate the advantage of having an additional weight laid upon him and every horse ; that is not the case with the artillery of Madras and Bombay ; and the artillery of Madras and Bombay is, I understand, very excellent ; in fact as good an artillery as that of Bengal ; but it is clear, if the system of Bengal is the best, it ought to prevail in Madras and Bombay. 1992. Chairman.] Does not the converse of that proposition hold good, that if the system in Europe and in Madras and Bombay is the bestj it ought to be introduced in Bengal ? That is my decided opinion. 1993. Earl of Elknborough,] Is the 6-pounder in the Company's service exactly similar to the 6-pounder in use in the Queen's service ? The 6-pounder in the Indian service is a light 6-pounder, and so is ours. 1994. What is the difference between the range of the Indian 6-pounder and the range of the Queen's 6-pounder ? I imagine very little. 1995. Chairman.] What is your opinion with regard to the heavy artillery ? With regard to the siege artillery, I consider that we have arrived in India at a mode of carrying heavy artillery in the field, which has been proved to be a most useful improvement. At the battle of Sobraon, and at the battle of Guzerat, on which occasions my noble friend Lord Gough commanded, the effect was most useful; that system is the carrying 18 and 24-pounder8, drawn by elephants lengthways, one before the other ; they are able to draw the heavy guns over almost any part of the country, of hill or plain. The most difficult country iu India to pass with heavy artillery was the mountain passes to Kangra, at that time held by a Sikh force. The garrison would not give up the fort according to the treaty ; but the appearance of six 18-pouuders so astonished the garrison in a mountain fort, considered inaccessible, that they instantly surrendered. 1 996. Earl of Elknborough.] You do not bring the elephants into action ? No ; the bullocks which carry the ammunition are changed; that takes very little time. 1 997. Chairman.^ Were you satisfied with the efficiency of the Regular Cavalry in the field ? I never happened to see a charge of Regular Cavalry, and therefore any evidence that I could give upon the subject would be rather the opinion of others than my own ; but certainly, of late years, the impression in India is strong, that a Regular regiment is not so efficient, either in action or for the general operations of a campaign, as the Irregular Cavalry ; merely speaking as to the efficiency in field operations, it is very apparent that an Irregular regiment, with three British officers at its head, and with very few of the impedimenta of the Regular Cavalry regiments, which contain a much larger proportion of European officers, there is greater facility in getting a regiment of Irregular Cavalry into movement, and that they are more manageable for field and other operations than the Regular Cavalry. 1998. Is the drill of the Regular Cavalry the same as the European ? Their drill is the same, and their arms are to a great extent the same. 1999. That is not the case with the Irregular Cavalry, is it ? Their drill is much the same as what we should give to the yeomanry here ; it is a simpler drill, embracing all the material points of the cavalry exercise in our service. (20. 9.) 3 E 2000. Earl 192 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE General 2000. Earl of Ellenhorough^ You saw the Governor-general's body guard Viscount H^dinge, gj^e a charge at Moodkee ? ' ' They charged at Moodkee. 8t h March 185 3- 2001. Did they do it well ? Admirably. 2002. Marquess of Salisbury. '\ Are there the same number of European officers in the Regular Cavalry regiments as in the Infantry ? It is larger in proportion to the men ; but it is smaller, in the aggregate, than the Infantry. 2003. The question refers to the Native troops ? The number of European officers to a corps of 600 swords is larger ; there are more officers to it in proportion to the men ; there would be in a Native Infantry regiment, where the number of bayonets would be in rank and file, 1 ,000 ; but there are not «more European officers in a Cavalry regiment than in a Native regiment. 2004. Do you think that an increase of officers in the Native Cavalry is as essential as an increase of officers in the Infantry ? I should say not ; where the officers are well selected, and are useful and ener- getic, the Commandant, the second in command, and the Adjutant in the Irre- gular Cavalry, do remarkably well. 2005. Earl of Ellenborough.~\ Was not that the original establishment of all the regiments in India, the Infantry as well as the Cavalry, in the early periods of our history ? I have always heard that it was. 2006. When they performed actions equal to what they have performed of late years ? Exactly. 2007. Chairman^ Is the Regular or the Irregular Cavalry the largest force ? The Irregular. We have now 18 regiments of Irregular Cavalry in Bengal alone. 2008. Are they called upon to perform any civil or police duties r Yes, they are. 2009. Is that the case with the Regular Cavalry ? Not with the Regular Cavalry. The Irregular Cavalry take the police duties occasionally when required to do so. I recollect that after the war was over in 1846, I found that the 5th Irregular Cavalry was employed as a civil corps, that is, handed over to the Civil Magistrate or Political Agent. That regiment having been so employed for several years, its discipline had deteriorated, and I added, eight regiments of Irregular Cavalry to the army, making that force 18 regiments. I gave over the 5th regiment to the Commander-in-Chief, and placed it under his orders, on the understanding that, as the civil power would require the aid of a police force in the shape of Cavalry, two regiments out of the 1 8 might be constantly employed as Irregular Cavalry in civil duties ; but for no longer a period than three years at a time. In consequence of that arrangement, the 5th was reformed by Lord Gough, and will not be employed on civil duties until all the Irregular Cavalry have had, in their turn, three years of police duty. 2010. Lord Stanley of Alderley.J Can you state to the Committee the com- parative expense of a Regular and an Irregular regiment of Cavalry of the same number ? A regiment of Irregular Cavalry has generally 800 swords ; a Regular Cavalry regiment scarcely exceeds 600 ; but I imagine that the expense of the officers of a Regular regiment alone would amount to nearly as much as the whole corps of Irregular Cavalry. 2011. The officers in a Regular corps would amount to as much as the whole expense of a corps of Irregular Cavalry ? I should think so; for instance, in a Native regiment of Infantry of 1,000 men, the charge for the Native officers and Non-commissioned officers and men, would be about 14,000 Z. or ] 5,000/. a year; but the expense of the European officers ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 193 officers alone in that regiment would be 10,000/. a year, although, perhaps, only General seven or eight officers remain with the regiment, the remainder being taken away Viscount Hardmge, for civil employment. G.C.B. 2012. Earl Powis.~\ Would it increase the efficiency of the Regular Cavalry to give them a native saddle, and a dress more approaching to the native dress ? I have heard that frequently stated, aud I presume there must be some ground for the assertion ; except on parade, I have not had much opportunity of observing them inaction. There are officers in England now, who have seen service with the Irregular and Regular Cavalry, who could form a better opinion upon that question ; but I am convinced, whatever change be made in the dress of the Native troops, they ought not to give up the red coat or red jacket ; the natives have great pride in that dress, although it is very ill contrived, and made very inconvenient to the men, by the bad taste of the European officers in mistaking tightness for smart- ness ; it is so tight that the troops can hardly move in it ; if they had lighter trousers and shakos, retaining the European jacket, of which they feel very proud, I am convinced it would be an improvement : 1 have seen a soldier of the Body Guard in Calcutta, within the Government House, standing sentry near the Governor-general's room, rolling upon the floor, after eating his meal of rice, in the greatest agony from the tightness of his dress ; on being unbuttoned, he was immediately relieved. A tight stock must be inconvenient to the Native troops ; the shako too, in some instances, weighs two or three pounds, when it ought to weigh only a few ounces ; and I remember I took considerable trouble with Lord Gough in lightening the cap, and in adopting an arrangement which he proposed, of having white covers over all the caps. 2013. Lord Stanley of Alderley.J Do they wear the stock the same as they do in Europe ? No; the Native Infantry have generally a stock studded over with beads or cowries. 2014. Do the European troops wear the stock the same as they do here ? They profess to do so on parade ; but the dress of the Europeans is equally imperfect, in my opinion, for that service : the tightness of the stock in a hot climate throws the blood to the head, and is the cause of disorders in the eyes. As to the shako, I can state a fact, that when Her Majesty's 9th regiment marched through the Kyber Pass to Jelalabad, and thence to Cabul, having to skirmish and fight in a very hilly country, they marched and fought in their foraging caps through the Pass and back again from Cabul to India, having car- ried their European fhakos upon camels, at great expense and inconvenience, the whole distance up to Cabul and back again. 2015. Are you of opinion that it would be expedient to make any alteration in the dress of the European troops serving in India? No ; you must not get rid of the red jacket or coat, and you must insist upon the dress being made as light and loose as possible ; but the same observation applies to the troops in this country ; they are a great deal too tight in their dress, and are too heavy laden when in marching order. 20 16. Chairman.'\ Do you approve of the muskets used by the Native soldiers ? Very much the contrary ; I think the old percussion musket of our army a great deal too heavy for the sepoy ; we are now about to adopt a musket that will weigh nine pounds, including the bayonet, and will carry an ounce ball with great accuracy and force 600 or 800 yards. 2017. It appears that there are about 5,000 sabres of Irregular Cavalry, and 86,000 of Infantry in Bengal alone; is that the proportion which you think desirable .-' I thought the proportion of Cavalry to Infantry too small ; and when in India, I did not hesitate, before the campaign commenced, to make arrangements with the Bombay Government to send up Her Majesty's 14th Light Dragoons; I also, during the war, raised eight regiments of Irregular Cavalry, and, I believe, the number remains at 18 in Bengal at the present time. In a country of plains I conceived that such an increase was very necessary : we were surrounded fre- quently by 20,000 or 30,000 Cavalry, having not more than 4,000 Cavalry on our side when we first took the field ; and, therefore, if any advantage resulted from the operations of our Infantry and Artillery, it was almost impossible to use the ^20. 9.) advantage 8th March 1 853. 194 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE General advantage gained on account of our deficiency in Cavalry, although on all occasions Viscount Hardinge, nothing could exceed the distinguished manner in which Her Majesty's 3d Dra- G.ilJB. goons conducted themselves, cutting their way through the enemy upon every 8th M^i853. occasion, and dispersing them with the greatest confidence. ~~ 2018. Various statements have been made to the Committee with regard to thfe efficiency of the Commissariat Department ; how did you find it with regard to providing the army with tents, food, and other necessaries ^ It appears to me that the Commissariat, which is a Commissariat for peace, is quite sufficient for the European portion of the army, none being required for the Native army in peace : its numbers do not exceed 28 or 30 Europiean officers for the whole of Bengal. In time of peace no supplies of food are required for the Native army ; they feed themselves ; consequently the Commissariat duties in Bengal are limited to what can be performed by 28 or 30 officers for the purposes of feeding the European troops, and supplying the hospitals in peace : assuming , peace to be the permanent state, and war the state of exception, the department is sufficient for its peace duties at fixed stations. When war breaks out, and the ' Native army are taken into the field, and can no longer feed themselves, when con- centrated, but must be fed by the Commissariat, and when the European troops are concentrated for field operations, then the Commissariat peace establishment is quite inadequate for such heavy duties : an arrangement is made on the part of the Government, with agents, contractors, sub-agents, under instructions from the Commissariat, to purchase all that is necessary for the army, and those supplies have to be carried in various ways, chiefly by hired cattle ; but the usual arrangement is, that each regiment must have its own regimental bazaar cattle to carry three days' provisions : the public cattle must be able to carry the tents and the spare ammunition for the Infantry ; and beyond those supplies, the agents or contractors furnish the rest of the cattle for carrying the food required of the Native army. Consequently, when we talk of the Commissariat Department in Bengal, we do not sufficiently consider that it is a department simply for peace ; and that when it is enlarged greatly on the breaking out of war, it is so enlarged, not by British officers, bjit by contractors and agents hired by the Government for the express purpose of war being discharged the instant the war is over, and again reduced to 30 British officers. 2019. IVlarquess of Salisbury.^ Is not the Commissariat under the Military Board at Calcutta? It is nominally under the Military Board ; and I should say that a worse arrangement could not possibly be made. 2020. Has the Military Board the examination of all the accounts ? It has the examination of them ; they are audited by persons under the Military Board ; of course not by the members of the Military Board ; that would be impossible. 202 1 . Then all the expenditure of the army in the field has to be sent to Cal- cutta to be there audited ? All the accounts of the expenses come to Calcutta, to be there audited. 2022. Is it possible, at that distance, to exercise any check or control over the expenditure ? It is done upon the documents that are produced ; even if it were half-way from the frontier to Calcutta, whenever the auditing takes place it is done by docu- ments, therefore the distance would not materially signify ; but the delay of passing through the Military Board is an arrangement that had better be done away with as soon as possible ; indeed the Military Board is so overwhelmed with a great quantity of business, that it is impossible that it should perform the duties which it attempts to undertake. 2023. Are there not instances in which the accounts of the army have been postponed even for several years before they have been audited ? Necessarily so ; in the retreat from Cabul, of course, the documents of the Commissariat officers were lost. In the case of the Sutlej campaign it was con- cluded about the time I came away, in 1848. But in all this business of the Commissariat Department, it is, in my opinion, an imprudent arrangement to put it under the Military Board. The Military Board is a military department, some- thing similar to the Ordnance Department in its original construction ; but now they ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 195 G.C.B. 8th March 1853. they have to attend to the public buildings, canals, roads, bridges, and everything General of that description in the civil branch of the immense Presidency of Bengal. Viscount Umdinge, Amalgamation and consolidation have been carried too far ; it is perfectly impos- sible that it can be done well; no one can conceive what the Board is required to perform ; it is not administrative, but executive duties that they have to perform ; for instance, the administrative duties of a Secretary-at-War, or of a Military Secretary to the Government, or of an Auditor-general of the Army, can, by great industry and numerous clerks, be performed, but it is an Executive Board, which has, in the first instance, not only to judge of the plans and estimates for all build- ings, but to give its orders for their execution, and anybody knows when new buildings have to be erected, canals excavated, and so forth, of the time that is required from month to month and year to year, in which you are liable to be cheated, and the public interests evaded ; in fact, all those executive duties require so much time and so much caution, that the Military Board, having other very important military duties to attend to, cannot perform them all ; for instance, the heads of the Military Board are the oflScer commanding the Artillery, and the officer commanding the Engineers ; then two field officers from the array are selected, and these five officers, including the Commissary-general, are to do all these duties, which it is quite impossible they can perform. 2024. Are you of opinion that any considerable abuses exist in the Commis- sariat Department ? I am not aware of them. 2025. Lord Monteagle of Brandon.] Is the system of accountability, in your judgment, accurate in the investigation of the accounts ? I have always understood that the accounts were very complicated, more so than our oun Commissariat, having many more documents than were necessary, and that by the immense number of those papers, an appearance of suspicion is thrown upon the Commissariat officer at every step that he takes, and it becomes very difficult for him to settle his account. 2026. With respect to delay in passing Commissariat Accounts, I believe that your own experience will enable you to inform the Committee whether there was not very considerable delay in passing Sir Robert Kennedy's accounts in the Peninsula ? I believe there never was a more able or a more honest man than Sir Robert Kennedy, and his accounts during the Peninsular war for supplies and pay of the troops amounted to 57,000,000 I. sterling. 2027. Do you remember how many years after the close of the military operations in the Peninsula Sir Robert Kennedy was kept in suspense, and deprived of his quit receipt ? I do not know how many years it was, but it was a very cruel predicament in which a public servant of unimpeachable integrity was placed, by a complicated system of accountability. 2028. Chairman.^ Have the charges which have been made against the Com- missariat been more applicable to the Native contractors or to the regular Com- missariat ? To the Native Commissariat. I believe it has been seldom found that the European officers have been deficient in integrity. 2029. Marquess of Salisbury.'] In the campaigns which took place while you were in India, were the troops properly supplied with necessaries according to the contracts which were entered into ? Yes, I think they were. I should say that when the army entered the field, and had to move suddenly from Umballa to the Sutlej, of course we were not so prepared as we should have been if we had expected war a month beforehand. When I arrived at Umballa, having conferred with Lord Gough, I called for the Commissary -general, and he told me that, according to the usual preparations for the army, it would take a month or six weeks before the cattle necessary for carrying the supplies about 150 miles, to Ferozpoore, could be produced. I informed him that they must be ready in six days, and 1 sent for Major Broadfoot who had served in the Commissariat Department, who was an officer of very great merit and ability, and was the Governor-General's Political Agent for the frontier, and told him the difficulty we were in, and that if we had not cattle to (20. 9.) 3 F carry 196 MINfUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE General Carry provisions forward, we must call upon the Native powers, who were, under Viscount Hardinge, treaty, bound to deposit them where we required them, at such places and on such ^' ^' ^ ' routes as the Commander-in-Chief might appoint. Major Broadfoot, having Sth March 1853. received the routes from the Quartermaster-general, sat up the whole night, and the next morning orders were despatched to tlie chiefs of the Sikh protected States to furnish provisions at the halting places, for a march of six or seven days, from Umballa to the Sutlej : and under these arrangements, rapidly made, the army never suffered from want of provisions, though they may have suffered, sometimes, from want of time to cook them. This service was accomplished by the activity, the energy and practical knowledge of that most able man. Major Broadfoot. We marched, upon an average, from 20 to 25, and sometimes 28 miles a day, without a halt, to Moodkee, through a very deep sandy country. 2030. Lord Wharncliffi.'] Assuming the army in India, which has to be pro- vided for by the Commissariat, to be what you have described, namely, an European army to be supplied at all times, and a Native army which supplies itself in time of peace, and requires to be supplied on active service, does it occur to you that any improvements might be introduced in the Commissariat Depart- ment, in order to render it more efficient ? I should say that you need a Commissariat Department by itself. I would not append it to the Military Board, or any other Board, but throw the responsibility upon the Iiead of that Department. 2031. Earl of Ellenborough.] Would you compose it of military officers ? Yes ; the only objection to that would be, that it takes away a few officers from the regiments ; but I think it would work better with military officers, as at present. 2032. Lord Broughton.] Do you think that a Board performs the duty better than an individual officer, with a sufficient staff of assistants ? I think that a Board, with a Staff of Board officers, each having distinct and separate responsible duties, works better than one individual. I have stated this opinion about a quarter of a century ago, in some evidence which 1 gave upon the Ordnance Department. In my opinion the Ordnance Department under the Duke of Wellington, as Master-general, was one of the best departments in its constitution, inasmuch as every officer had a separate branch of duty to perform, for which he was held strictly responsible, and if he did not attend to it, he was liable, on the days when the Ordnance Board met, to have his conduct noticed, and the deficiency discussed. I consider that a Military Board, such as the Board of Ordnance, can work remarkably well, provided each separate department has a responsible officer at its head. 2033. Is that the case with respect to the Military Board in India ? I do not think it is, because there are duties imposed upon that Board which it is perfectly impossible for human strength to get through ; and iu case of reference, there is no head or superior authority to examine and ascertain whether the duty has been properly performed. In the Ordnance the Master-general has a journal every day of every thing that is done in the department ; and although he may not have time to read the whole of it, his Secretary should read the whole, and point out to him anything that may require his attention, so that the Master- general can overlook the conduct of every officer. 2034. Marquess of Salisbury.] Who presides over the Military Board at Cal' cutta ? Nobody. 2035. How are the questions that come before it decided ? By a majority ; they put it to the vote ; when any important discussion occurs, a reference is made to the Governor-general in Council. 2036. There are only four members of the Board ? Four or five, I believe, including the Commissary-general. 2037. Earl Powis.'] Would not the department of Public Works to which you have alluded, consisting of roads, bridges and works of irrigation, afford ample employment for a Board by itself? Certainly. 2038. Do ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITOUIES. 197 2038. Do you think that, by constituting that a separate department, the General increase of those useful and necessary works would be greatly facilitated ? Viseount Hardinge, Certainly. G.^^. 2039. Chairman.'] Do you consider the present system of invaliding and pen- 8th March 1853. sions to be such as is calculated to attach the Sepoy to the service ? I consider that system to be one of the greatest importance ; I am confident that that is the great link by which we hold together the loyalty and affections of the Sepoys ; every Sepoy has a strong impression that the power of England is irresistible, and with that strong impression he enters our service : he is satisfied with our good faith ; he is convinced he will obtain the pension which he is pro- mised ; from the time he enters the service until he receives his pension he con- stantly looks forward to his pension as the satisfactory close of his career ; and I should therefore say that any thing that weakens that impression, by either diminishing the pension, or by making the conditions of the service harder than they ought to be, would operate very prejudicially upon our hold upon the affec- tions of the army and of the people of India. 2040. Has any thing taken place which has tended to diminish that confi- dence ? There were some alterations made in the year 1833 or 1834, particularly with regard to pensions to wounded soldiers a;nd officers, about which I felt very strongly : in the camp at Ferozpoor, after the four battles on the Sutlege, I think we had 4,000 men wounded ; the wounded Sepoys were very anxious about their pensions for wounds ; I looked into the question ; I went into it very narrowly ; I found that, unfortunately, on the occasion of revising the pension warrant in 1833, some reduction had fallen upon the Sepoys and Native officers entitled to pensions for wounds ; and I therefore immediately issued the necessary orders for giving back to our wounded Sepoys the pensions which they had had previously to 1833 : this gave very great satisfaction ; it improved the pensions of the men, generally speaking, from one to four rupees a month, in addition to the reduced pension. In four severe battles on the Sutlege only 231 Sepoys were entitled to disability pensions ; and the cost to the State was very small, for I believe in the 20 preceding years before 1846, the number of men pensioned for loss of limb in Bengal did not exceed 120 ; but it had a very great effect upon the poor fellows in our camp. I should say upon the subject of the pension generally, that there are rather more than 50,000 pensioners in the three Presidencies, and in Bengal about 25,000 ; the principal portion of them, 16,000, are located in Oude. When I passed through that country, a great number came to Lucknow, the capital, to make their salaam to the Governor-general, and they showed the greatest attache ment possible. Oude is the principal recruiting-ground for the Bengal army ; it is of the greatest importance that nothing should be done to affect the pensions of the Mative army. 2041. Are there any other advantages which you think, consistently with a due regard to economy, could be conferred upon the Native troops ^ There are two Orders ; the Order for Distinguished Services in the field, and there is the Indian Order of Merit ; the latter is for Native oflicers, and the other for Sepoys, for distinguished conduct in action. It is limited to 200 Sepoys, and it is very difficult, when a regiment of 1,000 men does its duty in a battle, to say who is the man who has most distinguished himself in that action ; so that frequently the Commanding Officer of the regiment does not like to bring forward any man as the most deserving, for that reward ; if he does, the claim must go before a committee, and the committee may say, " There is nothing peculiar in this ; there is nothing that strikes us as going beyond ordinary duty ; have not your other men done as well ? " therefore, there is some difficulty in putting it upon the ground of distinguished conduct in action, by choosing one out of 1,000 men, many of whom have perhaps behaved equally as well ; but the difficulty would be removed if you were to double the number, and give them 400, instead of 200, and to make it, as it is in our own service, for good conduct as a soldier 3,s well as for distinguished conduct in action ; then the man would go back with a medal and an increased pension, and the well-conducted man would be looked jip to in his village. 3042. Lord Elphimtom.'] If it were made a reward for good conduct, inde- (20, 9.) pendently 198 MINUTB& OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE General pendentlv of distinguished conduct in action, would not that rather take from the ffiscount Hardvige, value of the reward ? G.OB. I would combine both, if you choose ; but in a regiment there is a great 8th M^ 1853. disinclination to say, out of 1,000 men, who is the Native that has behaved in the ' most distinguished manner ; the most pushing Commanding Officer will bring forward the most numerous cases ; very often you cannot do it, 2043. Lord Stanley of Alderley.] At present there is nothing equivalent to our stripes in the army for mere good conduct ? Good conduct pay is introduced. 2044. Lord Ashburton.] Do you think that the rules are satisfactory which regulate at present the appointment of Native officers to the Bengal army ? I am confident that the Native officers ought to be promoted by seniority, and not by selection ; that the system of seniority which prevails with the European officers in the same regiments is the best rule for the Native officers ; I admit that you lose in efficiency by taking the seniors, who perhaps have already served too long to be very active ; but you gain in policy what you lose in efficiency ; they all look forward to their pension with the greatest possible anxiety. Seniority has been in former years the rule of the Bengal army ; in the Madras and Bombay armies it is not so ; they prefer the rule of selection ; but I am satisfied, from all that I have heard and seen of the Sepoys, that it is a much wiser principle to give the Soubahdar and Jemadar his promotion by seniority rather than by selection, 2045. Lord Monteagk of Brandon.] What are the corresponding ranks in our Service to the ranks to which the Natives may attain in the Company's army ? The Soubahdar is equivalent to our Captain, and the Jemadar is equivalent to our Lieutenant, the Havildar to the Serjeant, and the Naick to the Corporal. 2046. Chairman.] Had you occasion to recommend any advantages to the European army during your stay in India ? With the concurrence of Lord Gough, I recommended, that in the European army, Serjeants who had distinguished themselves in action should receive com- missions in the army ; and generally speaking, after they had been so selected, they were put into other situations, chiefly into uncovenanted situations ; they have received advantage from their promotion, and have behaved remarkably well. 2047. What is the amount of accommodation in barracks for the European soldiers in India ? The accommodation in the barracks I found to be good ; there is every desire on the part of the Government and the Home authorities to give the British troops the best accommodation that can be obtained ; but certainly the barracks in some instances have failed ; they are not so healthy as one would have reason to think they ought to be ; generally, the fault has been, that the rooms were not built high enough ; the atmosphere of course becomes foul and tainted by having a great body of men on the same floor, and when it ascends, it ought to have plenty of room to escape ; but I must say, that that, in a great degree, has been obviated by what Lord Ellenborough commenced when he was in India, that is, by building barracks in hill stations for European troops ; some barracks were built by Lord Ellenborough at the hill stations of Kussowlie and Subathoe ; the last was built at Dugshai, in my time, when the rooms were constructed for 25 men each, instead of 100 ; in the latter case a few blackguards could disturb the comfort of the whole company. 2048. Did you find much delay in receiving answers to communications which you made to the Home Government with respect to Army matters ? I think not. 2049. Lord Stanley oi Alderley.'] Had you opportunities of seeing the East India Company's European regiments on service ? Yes, I had. 2050. What is your opinion of them, as compared with the Queen's troops ? That I should prefer the Queen's service on this account, that when a new regiment arrives with all its young fresh blood, it is perhaps more energetic, more active, when it first comes up to the frontier, than a regiment which has been there 20 or 30 or 40 years constantly in India ; but nothing could exceed the good conduct of the European regiments of the Company. 2051. Would ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 199 2051. Would it be desirable to increase the number of the Company's Euro- General pean regiments ? Viscount Hardinge, If a larger European force is required, I should prefer seeing the Company's G.C.B. European force increased ; not that the Queen's service would not be quite as gth March iS'?'?. good, but I think we have enough of the Queen's regiments employed in India ; . I think it is no longer a favourite service with the Queen's officers. I have stated to the Committee, in an early part of my evidence, what I have felt myself obliged to do for the purpose of remedying the slowness of their promotion. It is very generally the case that officers, as soon as they hear that their regiment is going to India, attempt to exchange out of it ; and that is a feeling which, if it pre- vails in the British army, is very unsatisfactory. The service is far too long a period. 2052. Do you think it would be possible or expedient to employ the officers of the Queen's regiments in any civil or staff services in India ? I think it would. My opinion is, that the first claim for all staff and other situations of emolument is of right with the Company's officers ; that men who are expatriated as they are for the whole of their professional career, have a right of preference over our British officers, who are only there for a period ; but, on the other hand, when we see that the effect is so disadvantageous to the efficiency of their corps, and that they cannot supply the officers that are required, it is very fit and becoming that certain situations for which the Company's regiments can- not afford officers, should be given to the Queen's officers. 2053. Do you think that some of the officers might be so employed without at all impairing the efficiency of the Queen's regiments ? I think it should be limited ; it should be strictly under the control of the Commander-in-Chief in England. It is of such vital importance to have the Queen's troops always in, a state of the most perfect efficiency, that no Comman- der-in-Chief and no Governor-general should be allowed to exercise his discretion, so as to alter the rules laid down for maintaining the efficiency of the Queen's corps abroad. 2054. Earl of EUenborough.] Was not an additional number of Lieutenants given to the Queen's regiments in India, upon the alleged ground of its being necessary to maintain the efficiency of the officers ? Yes ; but that reason is very much diminished in force, owing to the quickness of communication. The number proposed by me will be four less, and the pro- motion accelerated. 2055. Would there not be this difficulty in placing the Queen's officers in situations in India, in which they would be brought into contact with the natives, that they are not generally acquainted with the native languages ? It would be necessary that they should qualify themselves, as they now do, for the situation of Regimental Interpreter ; but, in the first instance, I would employ them very much upon surveys, and duties of that description. 2056. Lord Elphinstone.] With regard to the unpopularity of the service in India among the Queen's officers, would not that be diminished if the regiments were more frequently relieved, so that they did not remain so long in India ? Certainly, it would be a great boon to the army. 2057. At present it is a kind of banishment for a man going there for 15 or 20 years ? It is nearly his professional life; they ought to be relieved every 10 or 12 years. 2058. Do you think that would conduce to their greater efficiency, as well as to the comfort of the officers ? Yes. 2059. Marquess of Salisbury.] Is there any objection to it, except on the score of expense ? Nothing but the expense. 2060. Chairman.] Would not any system that would induce the officers of Her Majesty's service, who go to India to learn the native languages, be useful in increasing their efficiency } (20. 9.; 3 G Of 200 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE General Of course it would ; they would be, generally speaking, more efiQcient, because Viscount Hardinge, they have a large number of native people about them. — h R 2061. Earl o{ ^Uenborough.'] It must frequently happen that a man who has ^^^ ^ ^ ^' served in India in a Queen's regiment as a Captain or a Lieutenant, at a later period of his life goes to India as a Major-general or as Commander-in-Chief; would it not be a great advantage to a man in that situation to be able to speak the native language when he has to direct native troops ? It would be important if a man who came forward to speak as Governor- general or Commander-in-Chief should be able to do so with great precision of expression in a language which is foreign to him ; but unless he can do that, I think it would not have a good effect, that he should address the Native troops in their own language. A man of great state and great power must say what he has to say in public as well as any man in the country can do, or else they would be in- clined to think that he was not so able as he ought to be for his station. 2062. Earl Pozvis.l What number of officers to a company have the Company's European regiments ? They have one Captain and two and a half Subalterns ; two extra Captains and 10 extra Subalterns for each battalion ; that is, 12 Captains and 30 Subalterns. 2063. Have remonstrances been made at any time by the Company as to the great number of officers attached to the Queen's regiments on the score of expense ? Not that I have heard of. 2064. Lord Stanley of Alderley.] Are there as many officers detached from the Company's European regiments upon staff employment as there are from the Native regiments ? There are a considerable number ; they are entitled to the same privilege of being detached in the same proportion as in the case of a Native regiment. 2065. Officers are detached from the European regiments on staff employment ? Yes ; and therefore, in order to keep them efficient, the number of Captains has been increased to 12, and the Subalterns to 30. 2066. Is the number of officers greater than in the Queen's regiments ? Certainly, in proportion to the number of men. But I hope, if my proposition should be adopted, as I understand it will be, that we shall be nearer upon a par, by having 12 Captains in proportion to 24 Subalterns, the same proportion as that which pervades the whole of our Regular service in Great Britain and the colonies. 2067- Chairman.] Do you consider that it would make the Indian service more popular with the Queen's regiments if the officers knew that if they qualified themselves, they might be employed in staff situations ? As soon as the information spread, as it soon will do, they will probably qualify themselves, if the situations are made worth their pains. 2068. Lord Jskburton.'] Would you limit the offices to which officers in the Queen's service could be appointed ? That will depend upon the Court of Directors ; I imagine that they would not appoint tlie Queen's officers to political and civil employments. 2069. To what situations should you think it advisable to appoint them ? There are staff situations to which they are now not eligible, and that is felt severely by the Queen's officers. I do not speak of the situations of Adjutant- general and Quartermaster-general, which are well paid, but with regard to staff situations generally ; they have not the proportion of staff situations which they think they ought to have relatively to their number of men, and, as I have before said, the preference is justly given to the Company's officers. 2070. Earl of EUenborotigh.'] Would it not be a measure to the last degree unpopular with the officers of the Native army if the privilege of holding political appointments, and other appointments, called civil appointments, were extended to the Queen's service ? Yes, I think that is a description of duty which cannot be extended to the Queen's service, but executive duties may ; such as surveying. 2071. Earl ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 201 2071. Earl Powis.] What becomes of the supernumerary officers in a Queen's regiment on its return to England ? The 10 extra Subalterns are placed on half-pay : there is an objection to second- ing them ; but they go upon half-pay till opportunities occur, and then they are brought back to full pay. 2072. Does that often lead to cases of individual hardship ? It does ; and therefore, by the plan which I have proposed, although the two junior Captains would be put upon half-pay when they arrived in England, they will have had their promotion considerably earlier, and only six Subalterns will go on half-pay, instead of 10. 2073. Earl of Ellenborough.~\ Is it not the custom to take the more useful men from the Company's European regiments for the purpose of placing them in the Native regiments in a diiferent capacity? That is often done : the Drill Serjeants of the Native regiments are Europeans, and in the Ordnance Department the offices of Storekeeper, and offices of that description, are given to European Non-commissioned officers of the corps. 2074. And the taking away the best men in that manner causes rapid pro- motion ? Yes ; I should say that a soldier in the East India Company's service, who is honest and sober, and can stand the climate of India, would have a very good career open to him, as far as profit is concerned ; but our men in the Queen's service have not so good a chance. 2075. Lord Stanley of Alderley.j Is it your opinion that the proportion of European troops to Native is sufficient, or that it ought to be increased ? It is very difficult to say what the proportion should be at present in Upper Bengal, which really is the fighting part of the country. The army of Bombay has no doubt seen a great deal of hard service ; but of late years the greater portion of the work has fallen upon the Bengal army ; but it is a very difficult question. If the proportion is to be taken with reference to the troops of those countries, generally speaking, such as the Burmese, I should say it was ample, more perhaps than is sufficient. If it is to be taken in reference to the other possible enemies we may meet with, such as the more warlike Sikhs, even under those circumstances I am of opinion the present force would be sufficient ; but the necessity of British troops would be greater in this case than in the other. In any case, it would be unsafe not to have a large proportion of Eu- ropean soldiers, on all occasions, when war is to be made on a great scale ; for we may praise the Native army as much as we please, and every General Officer who gives his evidence must, very naturally, have a feeling of gratitude and admiration towards the Native troops, for their loyalty, bravery and attachment, and can truly speak highly in commendation of their excellent good qualities ; and yet he would say, if he is obliged to make a comparison between them and the European troops of the Queen's or Company's Native services, that the superiority rests, as heretofore, with the European troops, and I trust it ever will be so. 2076. Even in time of peace, would it be prudent to diminish the number of European troops in India ? We cannot say what is a time of peace in India, war comes on so rapidly ; for instance, at the present moment there are very large Native forces in the interior of India, made up of States which are partially tributary and subsidiary to us ; there are also the frontier Native powers ; the force of the whole, though disjointed and dispersed, is very large indeed, so that you must always be prepared ; nobody can tell one day what the next morning, may bring. 2077. You mean that it is your opinion, that even when there are no active operations going on with any formidable enemy, it would not be prudent to reduce the number of European troops now serving in India ? I cannot say " now serving in India," because if the Punjaub, inhabited by the most warlike and, physically, the most powerful race in India, should become quiet, it may be possible to reduce a portion of the European force in India ; but it would be difficult at present to say what should be the positive proportion ; the extent of new territory is great, and much must depend upon the nature of the adversary we are likely to have against you : at the present moment there is Gholab Singh on our frontier, and there is a large extent of mountain, and a range (20. 9.) of Gentral Viscount Hardinge, G.C.B. 8th March 1853. 202 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE General of hills between Cashmere and the frontier of Nepaul, occupied by hill tribes, Vmouvt Hardinge, principally Rajpoots ; they chiefly belong to us, and there is nothing to bd G.C^. apprehended from them, nor is there anything to be apprehended from Cashmere. 8th March IBS'?, I have a statement from Colonel Steinbach, whom I allowed to go to Cashmere in 1 846 ; he has remained there for the last five years, and I desiredhim the other day to send me a return of the force that Gholab Singh has in Cashmere and at Jummoo ; the population of Cashmere is about 750,000 ; in his letter, now in my hand, he says, of Artillery, Gholab Singh has about 30 brass guns of different calibre, varying from four to nine-pounders, including one troop of Horse Artillery, nine-pounders, generally stationed at Jummoo ; then he says they may have from 150 to, perhaps, 200 small mountain guns, carried on the backs of mules or by men, each gun throwing a ball of about a pound weight, with two men attached to each gun. These, he says, cannot be called Field Artillery. The Regular Artillery, if they can be so termed, amount to 600 men ; the Regular Cavalry to 550^ and the Regular Infantry amount to 10,000; the Irregular Cavalry, very badly mounted, and without discipline, are 700 ; the Matchlock and Gingall men, distributed in different posts in hill-forts dispersed over the Maharajah's dominions, may amount to about 8,000, making altogether 20,000 men, of which there are only 10,000 regular troops. This corresponds with what was the force of Gholab Singh in 1846, when the Sheik Immamodeen, then in possession of Cashmere, refused to give it up to Gholab Singh ; we moved up, I think, 6,000 men from Lahore and the JuUundar, to the foot of the hills near Jummoo and Bhimber, and immediately the Sheik gave in ; at that time the utmost force which Gholab Singh could bring to bear was about 20 pieces of artillery, and about 12,000 men. There is not much to be feared from that quarter. Then the next enemy on our frontier would be the Nepaulese ; they have a system of employing a portion of their troops, say 8,000 or 10,000, brought out every year ; they pay them for the year they are out, and having drilled and disciplined them, they go back, and another portion are brought out the following year, much upon the same system as that of the German Landwehr. They would be enabled to turn out probably 50,000 fighting men in the hills ; but if tliose troops came into the plains for offensive operations, they would produce very little effect ; they have no horses, and not more than 30 pieces of artillery, exclusive of gingals and small mountain pieces, and, therefore, they could not keep the plain with Infantry alone. The Burmese, for offensive operations, are still less powerful. Then with regard to the interior of India, in the year 1847 I called for a Return, from the various native States throughout India, of the number of troops each kept up under arms of Artillery, Ca- valry and Infantry ; and according to a Return, which was obtained with some difficulty, it appeared that for the whole of India, including the frontier States, Cashmere and .Nepaul, it amounted to about 390,000 men. The most numerous are the Nizam's forces, about 60,000 ; Oude, about 50,000 : then take the whole of Rajpootana, composed of several States ; they appeared by the returns to have about 60,000 Rajpoots ; the Gwalior force at Nursingpoore was about 32,000 men ; that is now replaced by a force of about 9,000 or 10,000 contingents, under British officers. And I may here say, in passing, that it was fortunate, before the Sikh campaign broke out, that this Mahratta power, which had between 30,000 and 40,000 troops and 150 guns, had been conquered. It could have assailed us on our flank and rear, when engaged on the Sutlege ; but that force had, by Lord EUenborough's operations at Maha-raja-poor, been replaced by a British contingent of 10,000 men. In Bundelkund I think the number of troops main- tained in arms by the different Native States would be about 35,000 ; then you would have Orissa and Nagpore, and a great number of small Native States, chiefly in Bengal, dispersed in every direction, which would make the total Native force amount to about 380,000 or 390,000 men kept up as soldiers. 2078. Earl of Elknborough.'] And all the disbanded men throughout the whole country could be brought in in a week ? Perhaps so ; I have given you the whole number. As to the extent of the danger which we may have to apprehend, I must observe, that 100,000 men belong to the two Mussulman Powers of the Nizam and Oude, and that between these and the Hindoo Native States there would be so great a difference, arising out of religious and political motives of action, that I do not think any formidable combination would be possible, except perhaps on the part of the Rajpoots, who might ON THE GOVERNMENT OP INDIAN TERRITORIES. 203 might on any serious misunderstanding be the most formidable enemy within our territory. 2079. Lord Elphinstone.] Did you include in the numbers you mentioned in the Nizam's country the Nizam's contingent ? The contingent is about 12,000 men, under British officers ; but in the Nizam's territory there are great numbers of very warlike tribes of mercenaries, such as Sikhs, Arabs, Rhohillas, Turks, who are maintained by his Highness, a large unruly mass of fighting men, who mutiny for their pay, and, when required, do their duty remarkably well. Then the force with which we can control these dispersed powers amounts to about 320,000 good troops, European and Native, moved at the will of one man, the Governor-general, ready to act as a united army against this heterogeneous mass of 380,000 men, consisting of all the various tribes of India, with conflicting interests, and no confidence in each other. 2080. Chairman.'] Do you think it would be desirable to give military organi- zation to the police ? That very much must depend upon the nature and circumstances of the country in which you propose to employ them. If they are to be employed in Scinde or the Funjaub, or in newly annexed or conquered provinces, I think a military police is the best arrangement that can be made for controlling and keeping down any turbulent spirit in the country, and at the same time treating the natives with just consideration. After the Sikh war on the Sutlege, I raised four Irregular corps for that purpose, composed of Sikhs, as Irregular corps, for the very purpose of a Military Police ; and I understand that since that time a very large force of Irregulars have been raised, 10,000 or 12,000 men, and placed under the Board of Administration in the Punjaub, besides the Irregular Military Corps in the Pun- jaub ; and therefore I should say, that a Military Police in a newly conquered ■country is both necessary and useful. If, on the other hand, the question refers to placing a Military Police in the old Regulation Provinces from Agra down towards Calcutta, then I should doubt whether it were necessary and politic, unless vou come to the resolution that the Government of India is to be carried on under a military form and organization, instead of by a civil one ; if it is to be by civil rule and civil machinery of government, I should say that, in the old established Regulation Provinces, you do not require that description of force : that is very much the opinion of the magistrates and civil officers. Mr. Thomason, the Lieutenant-governor of Agra, objected to the four battalions of military police established by Lord Ellenborough ; he thought that description of force unneces- sary, and he gave his reasons for it. The four police corps raised by Lord Ellen- borough in 1844, did very good service during the Sikh war; but then they were in parts of the Upper Province, where we always had a large military force, and it was found inconvenient that men who Avere to do the active and detached duties of police should be in red coats, with heavy muskets and accoutrements, in the ordinary transaction of their civil duties. We were at that time reducing the army ; and as those four regiments of Mi- litary Police were an experiment, they were reduced by me, with this proviso, that the Lieutenant-governor, Mr. Thomason, was to retain as large a proportion of the men, who had been taught the use of arras, as he pleased ; and they were thus placed upon nearly the same footing as the Irish police ; that is to say, they were to be kept instructed in the use of arms, so that if they were employed as guards upon the gaols, or the treasury, they had arms ready to be put into their hands which they were readily taught to use if necessary ; whilst, under ordinary circumstances of duty, they would, as the Irish police do, be able to go about without fire-arms, and in their light native dress, without their muskets and accoutrements, and carry on their civil duties, armed or unarmed, as the circumstances of the case required. But I ought to observe, that Military Police corps existed in Lord William Bentinck's time, in 1830; that he caused about 16 battalions of Military Police, or Local corps of the same description, to be put down ; he thought them expensive and inconvenient ; in his opinion they were not required, and he reduced them, making a saving of 5,000 /. a year on each battalion, which was approved by the Home Government. It is stated that the change he introduced had succeeded. If there is to be a continued system of Civil government as contra- distinguished from a Military government in the old established provinces of the country, it appears natural that the police should be civil, and under the magis- trates, and as much as possible on the system of the Irish police. But I must (20. 9.) 3 H again General Viscount Hardinse, G.C.B. " 8th March 1853. 204 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE General again say, that in the parts of the country where territory has been recently Viscount Hiirdinge, annexed, a Military Police is a superior instrument to any Civil Police of Burkun- G. C. B. dauzes, and that distinction has long prevailed. We have now, and have had for 8th March 1853, "^^ny years, about 18,000 armed men in various Irregular corps employed as ' Military Police corps : the four Sikh corps are on the same military organization as Lord Ellenborough's Military Police corps. These Military Police corps are raised, each man receiving five rupees a month, with two or three British officers attached to each ; being paid at a smaller rate of pay than the Native Regular troops, and more dispersed, they are not so easily kept in order ; they have, as armed men, the greater power to be oppressive, if dispersed, and sometimes they may have the inclination, owing to tlie smallness of their pay ; upon the whole, they have answered well, and when I was in India I employed the Irregular Cavalry and the Irregular Infantry regiments in police duties in newly ceded districts. If it be intended to carry on the Government under Magistrates and civil officers, then the Civil Police, on the Irish plan, appears to me to be the best ; but that when- ever you are in any difficulty, in a newly conquered or ceded country, and amongst a military population, a Military Police works more energetically. 2081. ^t\ oi Ellenhorough.^ Do not you think that a Military Police might be useful for the suppression of dacoitee in the Lower Provinces ? I do not see how the dacoitees could be kept under by a Military Police heavily armed. 2082. Was not Saugor kept quiet by a Military Police ? I believe when you put them there, they were very useful, the country being disturbed ; but the Lieutenant-governor made to Lord EUenborough a strong appeal against the system, to their being employed at Agra, Delhi and Kurnal. But, according to the arrangement made at the time of their reduction in 1846, a certain portion were to be taught their drill at the end of each year, as the • Irish police are ; and, whenever they were wanted, they might take their arms, and mount guard on the gaols or treasuries, or on any emergency, in ordinary times, not taking their arms. 2083. When you moved the troops forward upon the second crossing of the Sutlege, what did you do with tlie four battalions you have mentioned ? They were employed in convoys, and in doing a great deal of service in the towns in the rear. 2084. How many troops did they save you ? I should say they were not so useful as four battalions would have been, because in our difficulty, if we had had four battalions, we should have ordered them up ; but having them, they assisted in maintaining order in the rear, which probably would have been more or less in disorder if we had not had them. 2085. Earl Powis.] How many Rifle corps are there in the regular Native regiments ? Some of the regiments have a company of Riflemen, 2086. Chairman.] Are there any other points connected with the possible improvement of the efficiency of the army in India upon which you could give information to the Committee ? It is a very wide and a very large question ; some questions have been put with regard to caste ; I should say, speaking from what I have heard, rather than from what I have seen, that the Bombay army is a more easily managed army than that of Bengal, from its having no difficulties as to caste. On some occasions, amongst the high caste men in Bengal, it is said, there was a disinclination to work in the trenches; by management and conciliation, they were induced to do so, but there is a good deal of difficulty sometimes with the high-caste men ; on the other hand, I must say that nothing could exceed the loyalty and attachment of the Bengal army, under Lord Gough, during the whole of the Sutlege campaign ; I do not believe we lost 30 men by desertion during the whole time ; and when you consider that they were several months collected in a large body, from 5,000 to 10,000 men at Ferozepore, constantly in contact with a mutinous Sikh army of 50,000 men, within 50 miles of our cantonment, Sikh emissaries constantly trying to tamper with our Sepoys, holding out to them the great advantages of double pay and jhigh rank, that is, promotion to the raiik of Major, Lieutenant-colonel and General ON THE GOVERNMENT ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 205 General Officer, I felt it to be a very dangerous state of things indeed, and w^as General glad when, by the Sikh invasion, it came to a crisis, for fear that so successful an Viscount Hardinge, example might shake the fidelity of our troops ; but it did not ; they stood the G.^C^. trial, one of the most severe that any troops ever were exposed to, by having such gtj, March 18-3. temptations put before them ; and when they fought, nothing could exceed their ood conduct at Sobraon. 2087. What is your opinion of the results of the present system of furlough ? With regard to furlough, I suppose it will end in the officers being allowed to come home, instead of going to the Cape ; I should say that would be an advan- tageous arrangement ; but, upon this question of furlough, there is in India so much said by the press, and it is very naturally made such a question of profes- sional feeling, that I should rather leave the judgment to be formed upon the merits of the question, to the cool discrimination of the Board of Control and the Court of Directors. 2088. Lord Stanley of Alderley.] Had you ever to complain of the efficiency of the medical officers in attendance upon the regiments ? No, I had not ; there are a sufficient number of them. If we have timely notice of a campaign, we can always bring up the assistance of a sufficient number of medical men. 2089. Lord Broughton.] Do not you think that it is, upon the whole, advisable that the same regulations, and the same system generally, should prevail in the armies of the three Presidencies ? I think assimilation is very good ; but if assimilation is carried too far, it may create great mischief, and I am not at present prepared to say that assimilation has not been carried already far enough. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, Two o'clock. 9. (^Private.) Select Committee on the Government of Indian Territories. Appendix, A. B. C. LIST of Petitions referred to Ihe Sfelect Committee on the Government of Indian Territories. DATE OF PRESENTATION. 11 May - 1852 21 May 26 November „ 2 December „ 24 February 1853 25 February „ 26 February „ 28 February „ 4 March „ 11 March 4 April 7 April NAME OF PETITIONER. George James Gordon - - Charles Hay Cameron, late Fourth Member of Council of India, President of the Indian Law Com- mission, and of the Council of Education for Bengal. - - Ministers amd Missionaries residing in Calcutta. - - Madras Native Association, and other Native Inhabitants of the Presidency of Madras. llungo Bapojee - - Proprietors of East India Stock, and other British Subjects inte- rested in the Welfare and good Go- vernment of India. - - Madras Native Association and Others, Native Inhabitants of the Presidency of Madras. - - Retired Servants of the East India Company, Merchants and Others. - - Members of the Bombay As- sociation, and other Native Inhabi- tants of the Presidency of Bombay. - - British aud other Christian in- habitants of Calcutta, and the neighbouring parts of the Lower Provinces of Bengal. - - Armenian Inhabitants of the Bengal Presidency. - - British Indian Association and other Native Inhabitants of the Bengal Presidency. PRAYER. - - That certain Propositions mentioned in his Petition, connected with the Posi- tion and Political Rights of the Natives of India, may be taken into Considera- tion. - - That One or more Universities may be established in British India, and that the Youth of India may receive such a Secular Education as may qualify them for Admission into the Civil and and Medical Services. - - For Inquiry into the Government, and Moral, Social and Religious Condi- tion of the People of India. - - Complaining of ihe present Mode of raising the Revenue of the Government, and of the Salt Monopoly, and other Grievances. - For the Restoration of Shahoo Ma- haraj to his Rights and Property, or that the Petition may be referred to the Select Committee on the Government of Indian Territories. - - For Inquiry into the present State of the Affairs of India. - - For Redress of certain Grievances in connexion with the Expiration of the East India Company's Charter. - - That in case of any Alteration being made in the Government of India, the Rightof Choosing thePersons to compose such Uody may be granted, in such manner as may seem fit, amongst others, to the Holders resident in this Country of the Promissory Notes or Securities of the Government of India. - - For Inquiry into the Renewal of the Act for the Government of the Indian Territories, and that the Period of Exis- tence for any future Government of India be limited to Ten Years. - - For inquiry into the Renewal of the Act for the government of Indian Terri- tories, and for Ameliorations and Reforms. - That in the event of the Renewal of the Act for the Government of the Indian Territories, provision may be made to secure to the Petitioners the full benefit ot the Contract with the East India Company, bj' which they were induced to settle in the Company's Territories. - -Complaining of Grievances, and pray- ing; for Relief. Appendix, A. B. C. (20. App.) PETITION APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. c. PETITION of George James Gordon, that certain Propositions mentioned in his Petition connected with the Position and Political Rights of the Natives of India may be taken into Consideration. To the Right honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled. The Humble Petition of George James Gordon, Humbly sheweth, That your Petitioner, during a residence of upwards of 36 years in India, had opportunities of becoming well acquainted with the Natives of that countiy, of all ranks and classes, and of ascertaining their actual feelings and wishes regarding the British Government and its institutions, and that he is still in communication on those subjects with some of the most intelligent and influential of the inhabitants of Bengal. He therefore knows that he is acting in accord with their wishes in praying that your Lordships will take into your consideration the following propositions : 1st. That measures be adopted for the relief of the revenues of India from some portion of the expenses of the Home Government, amounting to upwards of one million sterling per annum. 2d. That such a change of system be introduced with respect to the granting of pensions, that in future no person entering the service shall be entitled to a pension after he has ceased to reside in India: the payment of pensions in £ngland causes, directly, a drain on India of upwards of a million sterling, and, indirectly, to one of probably four times that amount, by the inducement it gives to persons to retire from the service while in the prime" of their faculties, and to withdraw themselves and their families from the country, with the means they have accumulated during their residence in it. 3d. That economy being urgently requisite, the salaries of the higher officers of Govern- ment in India be reduced, granting in compensation a much longer tenure of office than they have hitherto been accustomed to enjoy. 4th. That with the same view, useless offices be abolished, such as that of Councillors of subordinate Governments, substituting as advisers of the Governors one or more of the Secretaries at the head of departments, as is now the case in the Lieutenant-governorship of the North-west Provinces. 5th. That the Legislative Council should be a distinct body from the Executive Council or Cabinet of the Governor-General, and that it shou'd include amongst its members a certain number of Natives selected from the most intelligent and influential inhabitants of the several provinces ; the principal inducement to be held out for acceptance of such office being honorary distinction, rather than emolument in the shape of salary. 6th. That the distinctions hitherto existing between what are called the covenanted and uncovenanted servants of Government be abolished, and that all public servants be entitled alike to look forward to promotion, according to merit and qualification. 7th. That to make room for the more general employment of Natives, a moiety of the number annually required to supply vacancies in the Civil Service be selected by the Governors of the several Presidencies, from youths who have been found on examination qualified for the public service by their acquirements in such branches of knowledge as shall be prescribed by Government. 8th. That seminaries of education, on the principle of Universities, shall be established in various parts of the country, where general as well as professional knowledge may be acquired, and degrees granted in law, medicine and niecliauical art and science. 9th. That one code of laws be applicable to all classes of the comnmnity, and that all inhabitants of the country shall be subject to the same Courts, both in civil and criminal cases. 10th. That the Supreme Courts of Appeal at all the seats of Government shall have one Judge appointed by the Crown, and that all applicants for judicial office shall be required to pass an examination in law. nth. That laws passed by the Legislative Council and approved by the Governor-General in Council shall not be liable to be rescinded, unless found by Her Majesty's Privy Council to be repugnant to existing Statutes of Parliament. 12th. That Government should be prohibited from engaging in future directly in the manufacture of opium or of salt ; that for the revenue now realized by the manufacture and sale of opium, licenses to manufacture the drug and a duty on its exportation be substituted ; and that in the same way, with respect to salt, the right of manufacture in each district where salt can be produced be farmed, under the piotection of a fixed duty on importation. Beseeching the favourable attention of your Lordships to the foregoing propositions, your Petitioner, as in duty bound, will ever pray. G. J. Gordon. PETITION COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 3 PETITION praying that One or more Universities may be established in British Appendix, A. B. C. India, and that the Youth of India may receive such a secular Education as ' may qualify them for Admission into the Civil and Medical Services; of Charles Hay Cameron, late Fourth Member of the Council of India, Pre- sident of the Indian Law Commission, and of the Council of Education for Bengal. To the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled. The Humble Petition of Chakles Hay Cameron, late Fourth Member of the Council of India, President of the Indian Law Commission, and of the Council of Education for Bengal, Humbly sheweth, That your Petitioner was appointed a Member of the Indian Law Commission in the year 1834, and continued in that body as Member or President, until the year 1848, That in the course of the years intervening between 1834 and 1848, the Law Commission sketched out a system of Law and of .Tudicial Establishments and Procedure for British India, whereof the following parts have been fully elaborated and reduced into the form of Acts of the Indian Legislature : A Penal Code. A Plan of a Model Criminal Court. A Plan of Criminal Procedure. A Plan of a Model Civil Court and of Civil Procedure. A Plan for the abolition of the Recorder's Court in the Straits of Malacca, and for the constitution of an improved Judicature there. A Law of Prescription and Limitation. A Lex Loci for British India. That, so far as your Petitioner knows, the Home Authorities have not felt themselves in a condition to pronounce a decision upon any one of the above propositions, except the plan of a Model Civil Court and Civil Procedure. That, so far as your Petitioner knows, the Legislature of India has not felt itself competent to pronounce a. decision upon any one of the above propositions. That in the reports by which the Law Commission explained and justified the propositions above enumerated, and in various other reports, they have discussed a great number of important questions of Jurisprudence : The Fusion of Law and Equity. Special Pleading. Appellate Judicature. Small Cause Judicature, and its fusion with General Judicature. The Jury, or the association of the Public with the business of Judicature. The training of Candidates for the Judicial Office. That the labours of the Law Commission, which (whatever may be their intrinsic value), have cost a great deal of public money, will, as your Petitioner apprehends, be lost to the people of India; and that the similar labours of any persons who may be appointed to complete the task imposed upon the Law Commission by Parliament, in the Statute 3 & 4 Will. 4, c. 85, ss. 43 to 55, will in like manner be lost to the people of India. Your Petitioner therefore prays that the above-mentioned propositions and discussions of the Law Commission may be submitted to the consideration of competent jurists, who may decide whether the recommendations of the said Commission are, or are not fit to be adopted. That, as President of the Council of Education for Bengal, your Petitioner had oppor- tunities of observing the desire, and the capacity of large numbers of the Native youth of India for the acquisition of European literature and science, as well as the capacity of the most distinguished amongst them for fitting themselves to enter the civil and medical covenanted services of the East India Company, and to practise in the learned professions. That the said Native youth are hindered from making all the progress they are capable of in the acquisition of the said literature and science. First, because there is not in British India any University with power to grant degrees, as is done by Universities in Europe. Secondly, because the European instructors of the said Native youth do not belong to any of the covenanted services of the East India Company, and do not therefore (whatever may be their learning and talents) occupy a position in society which commands the respect of their pupils. Thirdly, because no provision has been made for the education of any of the said youth in England, without prejudice to their caste or religious feelings. Your Petitioner therefore prays that one or more Universities may be established in British India. (20. A PP.) . That 4 APPENDIX TO MINX^TES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B.C. That a covenanted Education Service may be created, analogous to the covenanted Civil — — and Medical Services. That one or more establishments may be created at which the Native youth of India may receive in England, without prejudice to their caste or religious feelings, such a secular education as may qualify them for admission into the Civil and Medical Services. And your Petitioner will ever pray. C. H. Cameron. Upper East Sheen Lodge, 13 May 1852. PETITION for Inquiry into the Government, and Moral, Social and Religious Condition of the People of India ; of Ministers and Missionaries Resident in Calcutta. To the Right hoiiourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled. The Petition of the undersigned Ministers and Missionaries Resident in Calcutta, Humbly shewetb, That your Petitioners are deeply interested in the welfare of the people of India; that they have been attentive observers of their social condition ; and that they have devoted much labour to the work of their conversion from tlie service of dumb idols to the worship of the one living and true God. That your Petitioners observe with anxious attention the deliberations of the British Parliament on all subjects connected with India ; and more especially now, when the Charter of the East India Company is under consideration, they await the result with the most earnest desire that your Lordships may be guided by wisdom from above, and may be led to the adoption of measures that will augment at once the power and the honour of the British nation, and the welfare and happiness of this great country. That early in the present year some of your petitioners transmitted to both Houses of Parliament petitions, praying that measures might be taken to ascertain the exact nature and extent of the connexion still subsisting between the Government of India and the Hindu and Mahomraedan religions, and to dissolve and extinguish that connexion com- pletely and for ever. That the Petitioners also, in the said petitions, called attention to a despatch of the Court of Directors in 1847, forbidding their servants to take part in missionary undertak- ings, and praying for a copy of that document. That your Petitioners feel much anxiety on these points, and earnestly pray that your Lordships will direct your attention to them. That some of your Petitioners have recently addressed a Memorial to the Governor- general of India in Council, praying that a certain Draft Act for the final discontinuance of the grant which hitherto Iws been made annually by the Government of India to the Temple of Jagannath at Puri may be passed into a law, and declaring the conviction of the said Petitioners that no compensation whatever, in law or in equity, is due to that Temple, and praying, therefore, that none may be paid. That your Petitioners await the result of that Memorial with anxious expectation, having long and deeply mourned over the support by the Government of India of a shrine, which, for many ages, has been the scene of gross idolatry and indescribable misery; and your Petitioners pray that no final njeasures may be adopted for the renewal of the powers of the East India Company till effectual steps have been taken to remove that scandal, as well as to secure the complete separation of the Company's Government from the Hindu and Mahommedan religions, in all the various circumstances wherein there still subsists any direct or indirect connexion between them. That your Petitioners desire to call the attention of your Lordshijjs to other points that affect the interests of India, especially in the Presidency of Bengal, wherein your Petitioners reside and labour. That your Petitioners have reason to believe that there is a vast amount of social disor- ganization, and of consequent suffering, in the whole country. Much of this your Petitioners can trace to the fearful superstition of the people, to their ignorance, and to the debasing effects of a popular mythology, which presents as objects of worship deities who are examples of e^ery vice, and which ascribes sanctity and divine honour to a priesthood which is the principal curse of India. But speaking particularly of this great Presidency of Bengal, your Petitioners would represent to your Lordships the existence of evils which it falls properly within the scope of Government to meet and to control. The evils resulting from the religions of the country your Petitioners believe to have been greatly diminished since the commencement of Christian missions; and they willingly accord to the Govern- ment of India the praise of having al'olished satis, and checked infanticide, thuggism, and the once prevalent practice of self-immolation. Your Petitioners do not now hear of the terrible occurrences with which their predecessors were faiuiliar; of women drowning them- selves publicly at the junction of the Ganges and the Jumna; of others sitting in pits to be COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 5 be smothered by heavy baskets of sand ; and of devotees yielding themselves to death in Appendix. A. B. C. the presence of multitudes, by means which require the active participation of heartless accessaries. A more just apprehension of their duty by the judicial officers of Government has restrained such suicides, by dealing with the accessaries as guilty of murder; and tiie enactment of several wise and salutary laws has restrained the other classes of crimes which your Petitioners have mentioned. Your Petitioners believe, however, that these results must in a large measure be ascribed to the growing influence of Christian missions, which have been blessed no less in raising the standard of piety and justice among the Europeans in India, than in the enlightenment of the consciences of the natives. But there are other evils with which the Government, as such, has to contend, and which your Petitioners regret to declare appear to be on the increase. Your Petitioners greatly fear that it will be found on inquiry that in many districts of Bengal neither hfe nor property are secure ; that gang-robberies of the most daring character are perpetrated annually, in great numbers, with impunity ; and that there are constant scenes of violence, in contentions respecting disputed boundaries, between the owners of landed estates. That your Petitioners submit to your Lordships that the radical cause of both these evils is the inefficiency of the police, and the judicial system. Your Petitioners find that the sole protection of the public peace in many places is a body of policemen (called village chowkedars), who are in fact the ministers of the most powerful of their neighbours, rather than the protectors of the people. The body of peace-officers appointed and paid directly by the State will, on inquiry, be found to be entirely insufficient for the great districts for which they are provided ; but few as they are, they also will be found to be oppressors of the people. The records of the criminal courts, and the experience of every resident in the districts of Bengal, will bear testimony to the facts, that no confidence can be placed in the police force (either the regular force or the village chowkedars) ; that it is their practice to extort confessions by torture ; and that while they are powerless to resist the gangs of organized burglars or dacoits, they are corrupt enough to connive at their atrocities. That your Petitioners believe that a strict and searching inquiry into the state of the rural population of Bengal would lead your Lordships to the conclusion, that they commonly live in a state of poverty and wretchedness, produced chiefly by the present system of landed tenures, and the extortion of the zemindars, aggravated by the inefficiency and the cruelties of the peace-officers, who are paid by the chowkedarry tax, or by the Govtrn- ment. That your Petitioners believe that a well-organized police, with a more extensive and more effective judicial system, would do much to check the outrages that arise from disputes about land; but your Petitioners must also ascribe much of the evil which these outrages produce to the causes by which primarily such disputes are occasioned. Your Petitioners must declare, that from the want of a complete survey of the estates of the country, of a Registration Act to settle titles, and of laws to obviate the infinite mischief of the universal system of secret trusts, there is so much uncertainty about the landed tenures and bounda- ries in Bengal, that capitalists generally dread to purchase such property, and those who do, too frequently keep bodies of clubmen, to take and keep, by force, the extent of land to which they deem themselves entitled. Between contending proprietors, amidst scenes of constant conflict, and a prey to the corruption and the oppression of the police, the tenant is reduced, not merely to beggary, but also, in many cases, to a state of the most abject and pitiable servitude. That your Petitioners attribute many of the evils that exist in this Presidency to the fact that (unlike the other Presidencies of India) it has no separate Governor. While the North- western Provinces during the past eight years have enjoyed the benefit of the rule of the same able and experienced Governor, the Presidency of Bengal, in the same period, has had eight successive changes of rulers ; and in every case, whether the Governor-general or the Deputy-governor was for the time being ruler of the land, he has been encumbered also with other and weighty duties, as a member of the Supreme Council of India. That your Petitioners attribute also to the want of a separate Governor for this Presidency the fact, that while much has been done in judicious and beneficial public works in the North-western Provinces and the Madras Presidency, and very recently also in the Punjaub, this great Presidency, which contains thirty-five millions of people, and yields nearly half of the entire revenue of India, has been very greatly neglected, and cannot be said now to have more than one good road of any considerable extent, while a vast portion of the country remains altogether untraversed and uninvestigated ; and, in fact, never has been visited by any of the Governors of Bengal from the day when the Company first obtained the Dewanny. That your Petitioners believe that justice calls for a separate Government for Bengal, and in order to render it as effective as possible, your Petitioners submit that the limits of the Presidency should be curtailed, and that Arracan and the Tenasserim Provinces, with Penang and Singapore, might be formed into a separate Presidency. That there are many measures to which your Petitioners would desire the attention of your Lordships to be directed, in connexion with the Government of Bengal. The principal of these, your Petitioners beg leave to submit as follows : 1. The appointment for the Presidency of Bengal of a separate Governor, who shall be relieved of all share in the general Government of India. 2. The entire and thorough reform of the police, by consolidating the village orzemindarry chowkedars and the Government police, and the placing all under active, trustworthy and (20, A PP.; B efficient 6 APPENDIX TO MINUTRS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B.C. efficient superintendence. Your Petitioners believe that it is difficult to over-estimate the importance of a comprehensive, enlightened, and benevolent settlement of this subject, so that a police force, worthy of the British Government, and under the direct control of con- fidential and efficient officers, may at length be provided for this country. 3. The summary and severe punishment of perjury and forgery, immediately on their detection in judicial proceedings. Your Petitioners regard a measure of this kind as one of the chief wants of this country; for perjury has almost ceased to be regarded as morally wrong; it constitutes the stock in trade by which numerous witnesses for hire subsist; the impunity and success with which systematic perjury and the forgery of documents are commonly practised, tend to encourage the already too prevalent habits of falsehood and deception among the great body of the people ; and, as a necessary consequence, justice is now constantly mocked and defeated, or the powers of the law are used, without remorse, as engines of oppression and extortion, through the infamous arts of the traders in corrupt litigation. 4. The reduction of the size of the judicial districts, in which at present the chief station is commonly so far removed from the greater number of the towns and villages that justice, in miiny instances, is practically denied, and in a very large number of others is obtained under difficulties and discouragements, and at a loss of time and money, that render every connexion with judicial proceedings a heavy calamity alike to the suitors and the witnesses. Your Petitioners believe that careful inquiry would prove that many persons, of various ranks, throughout the country are enabled, by their distance from the seat of justice, to set the law at defiance; and that the great expense of carrying witnesses so far, and of sup- porting them while detained, is one of the chief temptations that lead to the employment of the mercenary perjurers who infest every court and judicial station. 6. The increase of the number of judicial officers, and their suitable and satisfactory pre- paration for the important task of administering justice ; so that the law may be administered in every district on a uniform system, and on just, definite and intelligible principles. 6. The institution of all criminal suits on viva voce applications only, and the adminis- tration of justice on viva voce etideuce only, to be taken by the judge or magistrate in person. Your Petitioners admit that to a certain extent justice is already thus administered ; but, to a very great extent, written depositions, taken down and read to the officiating officer by venal men, are used in the Mofussil Courts ; and this practice, your Petitioners submit, leads to much uncertainty, to constant misunderstandings, and great injustice ; while, at the same time, it deprives the courts of the well-known advantages of personal conference with the witnesses in the presence of the parties. 7. A careful and complete survey of the country, to fix the boundaries of the villages and landed estates, and a renewal of the survey wherever the encroachments of the rivers, or other causes, render it desirable. 8. An Act for the registration of titles and deeds relating to land, carried out in a comprehensive and liberaF spirit. 9. An Act to check the prevalent system of secret trusts, commonly called benamee transactions. The evils which a measure of this kind would meet are so extensive in this country as to become a marked peculiarity in its social system. Among these evils, the prevalence of litigation and frauds on creditors are notorious ; but other evils, of a less obvious, though not less serious nature, will on inquiry be found to arise from the benamee system. 10. A measure to encourage capitalists of enterprise and public spirit to purchase land, and also, to encourage smaller holders to raise themselves to the position of independent freeholders, by providing such means as shall be just and equitable alike to the State and to the purchasers, for the permanent redemption or commutation of the present land-tax. 11. Anieasure for the promotion throughout the whole country of a cheap elementary system of vernacular education, and the removal of all restriction on the Christian teachers in any of the Government schools and colleges affijrding instruction in Christianity, when It IS sought by the pupils. 12. The periodical publication of full and clear statistical comparative returns of the population, resources and progress of this Presidency. 13. The prohibition, by law, of the public barbarities which accompany the Churruck Puj&; and also the prohibition of every other public exhibition of fanaticism, whereby the moral sense of the community is debased and ruined, and human life is endangered. 14. The regulation of the practice of carrying sick persons from their houses to the river's bank, with the^ view of preventing the abuse of the popular superstition into a means of hastening death in fatal diseases, arid rendering it inevitable in the case of any whose diseases are not of that character. •' 15. The introduction of a system of general visitation of the Presidency by the Governor tor the time being, so that he may become closely and intimately acquainted with the qualifications of the subordinate officers of Government; with the general administration of public COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 7 public affairs ; with the local wants and feelings of the people ; and with the progress of Appendix, A, B. C, the pubHc work?. _!_' 16. The extension of the means of internal communication, by the increase and improve- ment of roads, and of the postal arrangements throughout the country. Your Petitioners believe that few tilings would tend more rapidly to the social improvement of the country than the increase of the means of intercourse and communication. 17. The liberal encouragement of all public works which are calculated to develope and improve the resources and trade of the country. Your Petitioners submit that such encouragement is very much needed ; and as a proof, they beg to state that, even in the immediate vicinity of Calcutta, the two canals by which, during eight months of the year, the great majority of boats leave or approach the commercial capital of India, are utterly inadequate to the immense traffic of which they are the channels. Your Petitioners also apprehend, that inquiry will prove that the resources of some districts are at present almost entirely lost and wasted, through the want of public works that would give vent to the industry of the inhabitants and the products of the soil. 18. The complete and absolute severance of the Government of India from all connexion, direct or indirect, with the Hindu and Mahommedan religions. That your Petitioners believe, that from these measures, together with the constant opera- tion on the Government of India. of public opinion, and of the vigilance of the Parliament in Great Britain, results the most important and desirable might speedily be secuied. That your Petitioners submit to your Lordships, that it is the paramount duty of the Government of India to promote the highest interests of the people committed to their care ; and that all measures whereby revenue is raised to the detriment of the public morals, is a violation of this duty. That your Petitioners fear that on inquiry it will be found that the abkaree system for the regulation of the sale of wines, spirits and drugs, has, in practical operation, tended to foster arnong a people, whose highest commendation was temperance, a ruinous taste for ardent spirits and destructive drugs, by the efforts made to establish licensed new depots for them, in places where the use of such things was little or not at all known before ; and your Petitioners, therefore, pray that your Lordships will inquire into this matter, with a view to the abkaree system proving a check, rather than an encouragement to the use of intoxicating drugs and spirits. That your Petitioners observe with much regret the continuance of the East India Com- pany's extensive trade in opium. Your Petitioners view the traffic carried on with China in this contraband drug as second only to the slave-trade in iniquity; and they regard the collection of a great revenue from tiie opium monopoly by the East India Comparfy, under the sanction of the British Legislature, as a breach of faith with the Chinese Government, and as an odious participation in a guilly and ruinous trade, which they view with amaze- ment and abhorrence. That your Petitioners earnestly desire to see the Government of India relieved from the fearful responsibility of raising a revenue by providing annually an enormous quantity of a drug, which is notoriously purchased and shipped to China under British sanction, to gratify the morbid craving of multitudes of infatuated people for its enervating and fatal poison. That your Petitioners submit, that good faith with the Government of China, and common humanity to the unhappy myriads who annually ruin their health and destroy their lives by opium in China, should lead the British Government in India, ;is well as in the China seas, to check and to repress the wicked traffic by which the drug is supplied for the market in Bombay and in Calcutta, and is then shipped to and clandestinely sold as contraband in China. That your Petitioners are ready to acknowledge that there has been a great improvement in the spirit and measures of the Government of India since the Charter of 1813 was granted ; but your Petitioners have felt it to be their duty to bear testimony to the existing state and wants of Bengal ; and they submit to your Lordships, that to secure the con- tinuance and the increase of the zeal of the East India Company for the improvement of this country, it would be better to limit the period of their powers to a siiorter period than '20 years, so that the manner in which they have been exercised may again speedily come uuuer review. That your Petitioners fear that the present year has been marked by so many unexpected public events, and by so much political excitement respecting the state of parties and the future policy of Government in Great Britain, that the subject of the East India Company's Charter has not been investigated so deeply as it would have been by your Lordsbips in a period of greater public tranquillity ; and your Petitioners submit that this is another reason, of much force and importance, for the limitation of the Charter now contemplated to a period less than 20 years. That your Petitioners further submit to your Lordships, that it would be wise and expe^ dient to make such changes in the Home Government of India as would tend to secure the services of persons who had gained local experience ; and, further, to provide that, in the distribution of the valuable patronage of the East India Company, a large part should be reserved for the reward and encouragement of superior and eminent talent and industry, in the principal schools and colleges of Great Britain, That your Petitioners thankfully assure your Lordships that they have been abundantly encouraged in their own eflTorts to improve the condition of India, and that the whole (20. App.) Protestant 8 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT A nendix ABC Pi'otestant missions in the country have been favoured with many and remarkable tokens of ^^ ', ■ ' the Divine blessing. Your Petitioners beg permission to inform your Lordships, that at the present time the number of ordained Protestant missionaries in India exceeds 400, and that they have gathered into the visible Church of Christ 103,000 converts ; that they are receiving the aid of 551 Native preachers ; have upwards of 300 Native churches; 1,340 vernacular day-schools, 73 boarding-schools, and 120 Encjlish day-schools, besides upwards of 440 day-schools for Native girls ; that the complete Bible has been translated into lo of the languages of India, and the New Testament into five more ; that a very considerable vernacular Christian literature has already been provided for the people; and that a spirit of inquiry, a desire for education, and a general feeling of respect for Christianity and for Christian teachers, have been excited in all the spheres of the missions. Your Petitioners deeply deplore the inadequacy of their numbers, and the partial extent to which zeal for the conversion of the heathen is manifested in Great Britain ; and they earnestly and con- stantly implore the Lord of the harvest to awaken a wider and more affecting sense of India's destitution among all who profess and call themselves Christians ; but at the same time, they are bound to record, with devout thankfulness, the progress that has, been made; and they anticipate with confidence increasing proofs that the ancient systems of supersti- tion are fast crumbling away, and that the day is approaching when the light of the Gospel of Christ will bless all the families of this country. Your Petitioners gratefully record the passing of an Act by the Government of India in 1850, wliereby the rights of Native Chris- tians are secured ; but they regret that this and -other measures of equal simplicity and justice were obtained only after great and harassing delays ; and they now have to lament over the continuance of other evils, which a more just, prompt and vigorous administration of public affairs might long since have removed, and the removal of which might have tended greatly to the improvement of the condition of the people, and their wiihngness to consider the Gospel, as well as to that independence and strength of mind and character which the profession of a new religion in scenes of ancient idolatry and superstition especially requires. That your Petitioners are deeply impressed with a solemn conviction that this great and populous country has been entrusted as a sacred charge and stewardship to the Govern- ment of Great Britain ; that the hand of God was never more visible in the history of nations than it has been in the progress of British power in India ; and that every consider- ation of interest and duty should combine to secure from the British Legislature every measure that is calculated to elevate and improve the class of its rulers and its judicial and ministerial officers. The influence of India on the whole continent of Asia, your Petitioners believe has already been remarkably powerful and extensive ; and that influence, if the country be governed in an enlarged spirit of wisdom and benevolence, and if the blessing of the God of nations rest on the efforts alike of the Government and of the preachers of the everlasting Gospel of peace, may ultimately prove the immediate cause of that great and universal change in the whole social and religious state of this continent, with its vast population of more than half mankind, which the Scriptures of truth lead the Church of Christ confidently to expect. Your Petitioners, therefore, regard the present time, when the subject of the Government of India is under the consideration of your Lordships, as a period of momentous importance; and they earnestly implore that your Lordships may be so guided by the Spirit of the Lord into wise and righteous conclusions, that generations yet unborn may celebrate with thankfulness and joy this era in the annals of the British empire. Finally, your Petitioners earnestly pray, that your Lordships will be pleased to consider the premises ; to apply to the subject of the Government, and to the moral, social and religious condition of India, and to her material resources and political difiiculties, the most comprehensive, minute, and searching scrutiny ; and, finally, to pass such measures as shall redound to the honour and glory of God, as well as to the happiness and prosperity of the people whom He has given to the dominion of Great Britain. (signed) W. S. Mackay, Missionary of the Free Church of Scotland. [And 26 others.] PETITION COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. PETITION of the Madras Native Association, in behalf of themselves and Appendix, A. B.C. other Native Inhabitants of the Presidency of Madras, complaining of the present Mode of raising the Revenue of the Government, and of the Salt Monopoly and other Grievances. To the Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Irefapd, in Parliament assembled. The Humble Petition of the Madras Native Association, in behalf of themselves and other Native Inhabitants of the Presidency of Madras, Sheweth, 1. That your Petitioners, being desirous to avail themselves of the opportunity afforded by the approaching expiration of the Charter granted to the Honourable East India Company for eoing before Parliament with an exposition of various circumstances connected with the Government of this country, which, as acknowledged subjects of Her Majesty, they feel to be serious grievances urgently demanding redress, formed an association at Madras, on the 26th of February 1852, for the purpose of co-opera;ting in this great object with a similar association established at Calcutta, under the name of the British Indian Associ- tion, with whom they immediately entered into correspondence, intending, as a branch society, to place themselves under the guidance of that body, to whose supeTintendence the work of petitioning the Imperial Pariiament, on points involving the joint interests of both Presidencies, should be committed. That for this purpose they had- previously been collecting the requisite information from various quarters, and collating a large amount of manuscript statements, together with printed documents, in order to ensure the utmost correctness regarding the subjects to be laid before your Right honourable House. 2. That in the course of the above-mentioned correspondence, the Calcutta Association transmitted to your Petitioners the sketch of a petition, to which the consent of your Petitioners, with such suggestions thereon as they might deem requisite, was requested ; but that the said sketch related almost wholly to plans and recommendations of change in the Government of this country, for the exaltation of the highest classes of the Hindus, while it left almost untouched the pitiable condition of the middling and lower classes, and was in various respects unsuitable to the circumstances of the inhabitants of this Presidency ; your Petitioners, thence perceiving that there were many important points in which a joint interest could not be taken, and others in which there could not be joint concurrence, deemed it expedient to withdraw from their connexion as a branch association, subordinate to that of the metropolis, and to constitute from among themselves an independent society, under the denomination of the Madras Native Association, with the view of bringing before Parliament the immediate grievances of their own Presidency. 3. That from the time of dissolving that connexion, your Petitioners have been engaged in condensing the mass of their information and researches into a petition, of which the succintness should not impair its perspicuity in detail and explanation of the evils that are felt by all, but of which the actual causes, your Petitioners submit, cannot be clearly traced and set forth without a large consumption of time and labour. This Petition they entertain the best hope of being able to bring to a successful completion in time for its presentation to your Right honourable House during the early part of the Session of 1853 ; but havino- received private intimation by the mail of the 8th of August that the discussion on the weighty question of the Charter will probably commence before the close of the present year, and that the destinies of this important and extensive portion of Her Majesty's dominions may be determined for another period of 20 years, before your Petitioners can have an opportunity of stating their grievances to your Right honourable House, in the full and explicit manner above alluded to, they humbly express their hopes that time will be graciously allowed them for the transmission of the said Petition, now in course of prepara- tion, prior to the closing of the inquiry by the Committee of your Right honourable House. 4. That the grievances of your Petitioners embrace, principally, five points : First. The present mode of ruising the revenue of Government, particularly that part derived frcm agriculture, wluch, under the ryotwar system, is so oppressive to the vast mass of the population, that it has ground them down to the extremity of wretchedness and poverty. Secondly. The salt monopoly, which is felt by the poor to be a burthen of the most painful and intolerable pressure. Thirdly. The defects and evils attending the general administration of justice in the Honourable Company's Courts, which are presided over by judges not duly qualified by a course of legal education, who administer a system which does not secure to persons criminally arraigned that fair and open trial by their peers which obtains in the Queen's Court of Judicature, and which your Petitioners humbly think should be allowed to all subjects of the British Crown. (20. App.) C Fourthly. 10 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix A. B. C. Fourthly. The almost total neglect of national education, there not being a single '.^_1_ provincial school established by Government throughout the entire Presidency, and only one at the capital. Fifthly. The great deficiency and neglect of works of irrigation and public highways for the transport of produce. 5. That besides the above special points, there are many others connected with the general administration of the Government on which your Petitioners propose to d*ell in their petition not yet completed, and which, therefore, they now forbear to specify. 6. That, finally, your Petitioners, feeling the grievances to which they are desirous of drawing the attention of your Right honourable House, with a view of procuring their redress, to be deeply subversive of the interests and happiness of the people of this Presi- dency, as well as the prosperity of the country, humbly pray that time may be granted them for the presentation of their petition to your Right honourable House. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, shall ever pray. Madras, Native Association Office, (Signed by 11 Natives.) the 11th October 1852. PETITION of RuNGb Bapojee, the next Friend, and by Will one of the appointed Guardians of Shahoo Maharaj, an Infant and Minor, who is the sole Male next-of-kin, and also the lawfully adopted Son and Heir-at-Law of his late Highness Pertaub Shean, Rajah of Sattara, deceased, and also the nearest Male next-of-kin and Heir-at-Law of his late Highness Appa Sahib, also Rajah of the said State, deceased, praying for the Restoration of the said Shahoo Maharaj to his Rights and Property, or that the Petition may be referred to the Select Committee on the Government of Indian Territories. To the Right honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled. The Petition of Rungo Bapojee, the next Friend, and by Will one of the appointed Guardians of Shahoo Maharaj, an Infant and Minor, who is the sole Male next-of-kin, and also the lawfully adopted Son and Heir-at-Law of his late Highness Pertaub Shean, Rajah of Sattara, deceased, and also the nearest Male next-of-kin and Heir-at-Law of his late Highness Appa Sahib, also Rajah of the said State, deceased, Sheweth unto your Right honourable House, That his late Highness Pertaub Shean, above named, was the sixth Rajah of Sattara in descent from Sivajee Chuttra|)uttee, who founded the empire of the Mahrattas, and trans- mitted it to his descendants. And your Petitioner further sheweth, that in the year 1817 the late Bajee Rao, being then the peishwa or prime minister of that empire, but who had usurped its government, and made the Rajah Pertaub Shean his captive, made war in the name, but contrary to the desire of his master the rajah, against the East India Company, and that, in consequence thereof, and by the advice of the Rajah Pertaub Shean, the Honourable Mountstuart liiphin- stone, then being the British Commissioner at Poonah, duly appointed and acting under the authority of his Excellency Marquis Hastings, Governor-aeneral of India, did, on the 11th day of February 1818, publish a proclamation, addressed by and in the name of the Rajah , Pertaub Shean, to the Mahratta nation, warning hH its princes, chiefs, nobles and people to refrain from hostilities against the East India Company, and commanding them to abandon the peishwa, under pain of treason in case of disobedience to him the rajah. The procla- mation also stipulated, in the name of the Governor-general of India, that when and so soon as the rajah should be released from the peishwa's captivity, he should be " placed at the head of an independent sovereignty," adequate to his dignity and lineage. And your Petitioner further sheweth, that on the 20th day of February 1818, at Ashtee, in India, the Rajah Pertaub Shean, being then detained against his will by the peishwa in the midst of the peishwa's forces, who were actually engaged in battle with the British forces, did leave and abandon the forces of the peishwa, and go over to the British, bringing with him his mother, his two brothers, and others his kindred, and that on arriving amongst the forces last mentioned, the rajah surrendered himself, family, and attendants to Captain Pringle Taylor, now a lieutenant-colonel in Her Majesty's service, and that thereupon, and in con- sequence of such abandonment, the peishwa and his forces left the field of battle, dispersed, and fled, whereupon the commander of the British forces, the late Lieutenant-general Sir L. Smith, in token of the manner in which the victory of Ashtee was-gained, hoisted on the walls COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 11 walls of the fort of Sattara the royal standard of the rajah, and caused the same to be saluted -Appendix, A. B. C. by the whole of the British forces. And your Petitioner further sheweth, that, in performance of the stipulation aforesaid, a solemn treaty, bearing date the 25th day of September 1819, was made and concluded between the East India Company, in the name of the English Government, of the one part, and the Rajah Pertaub Shean of the other part ; by the first article of which treaty the terri- tory constitutingthe state of Sattara was confirmed and guaranteed " to the Rajah of Sattara, his heirs and successors, in perpetual sovereignty," under the protection of the Crown of Great Britain, which treaty was duly acknowledged and ratified by the English Govern- ment, And your Petitioner sheweth, that the Rajah Pertaub Shean was in the year 18S6 accused upon certain secret and ex-parte charges by the East India Company, and was in the year 1839 declared by them, they being his accusers and jurlges, guilty of those charges, without having been heard in his defence ; and was thereupon, and in consequence of such declara- tion, deposed from his sovereignty, forcibly deprived of his property and effects, real and persdnal, public or political, as well as personal or private, and he himself taken from Sattara, removed under the custody of a military guard to Benares in Bengal, and there kept a prisoner in such custody down to the 14th day of October 1847, when the rajah died, with- out having obtained any hearing of or reparation for his grievances, notwithstanding his many applications to the East India Company for such hearing and reparation, and notwith- standing his continued denials of the trulh of the said accusations, and his offers to prove their falsehood before any British tribunal. And your Petitioner further sheweth, that at the time the Rajah Pertaub Shean was removed captive from Sattara to Benares, the East India Company, by Sir James Rivett Carnac, Governor of Bombay, gave the rajah a written guarantee and pledge, dated 30th August 1839, in the words following : " An annual allowance will be assigned from the Sattara revenues for the support and respectability of himself and those members of his family who may choose to accompany him." " Further, that all property belonging to him bonajide private, and not appertaining to the state, will, on his peaceable submission, not be interfered with." Which written guarantee was three times repeated subsequent to such deposal. , And your Petitioner further sheweth, that immediately upon the deposal of the Rajah Pertaub Shean, the East India Company, recognising the validity and unbroken obligation of the treaty of 1819, acknowledged and declared his late Highness Appa Sahib, the sur- viving brother of the deposed rajah, to be his heir and successor in the principality, and did proclaim Appa Sahib to be the Rajah of Sattara accordingly ; and did furthermore, in and by a second formal treaty, which was, at the dictation of the East India Company, made and concluded on the 4th day of September 1839, between the Rajah Appa Sahib of the one part and the East India Company of the other part, and was duly acknowledged and ratified, solemnly and for the second time assure and guarantee the state of Sattara to the rajah thereof, his heirs and successors, in perpetual sovereignty, and did also confirm the first treaty of the 25th September 1819. And your Petitioner sheweth, that by a proclamation, bearing date the 5th day of Sep- tember 1839, at Sattara, being the day after the date of the second treaty, the British Resi- dent there, acting under the orders of Sir James Rivett Carnac, Baronet, Governor of Bom- bay, notified by proclamation to the people of Sattara that the East India Company, having no views of advantage and aggrandizement, had resolved to invest the brother and next in succession to the deposed rajah with the sovereignty of the state, according to the limits fixed by the first treaty, and all persons residing within his territory were required to render to him allegiance as Rajah of Sattara; which proclamation was afterwards duly recognised and approved by the British Government. And your Petitioner further sheweth, that the Rajah Appa Sahib departed this life on the 6th day of April i848, at Sattara, without issue. And your Petitioner further showeth, that the Rajah Pertaub Shean did, according to Hindoo law, adopt as his son the infant Shahoo Maharaj, and by his will, dated 10th October 1845, which was executed and published by him at Benares according to the forms of that law, he declared and directed that Shahoo Maharaj should succeed him in his rights, property (private and public), titles, and in everything appertaining to his rank, station, and person ; and that the rajah did immediately, publicly, and in a formal manner, notify this adoption to the East India Com| any through Lieutenant-colonel Carpenter, the officer then having the custody of the rajah at Benares ; which adoption the East India Company at that time never questioned. And your Petitioner sheweth, that Shahoo Maharaj is by birth the lawful and only son and heir of the late Bulwunt Rao, commonly called Balla Sahib Sennaputty, who, in his lifetime, was thus described by Sir Robert Grant, Governor of Bombay, in a minute dated 30th January 1837 : "The question is as to Balla Sahib Sennaputty ; he is the near relation of the rajah (Pertaub Shean), and supposing that the rajah and the rajah's brother (Appa Sahib) set aside, the proper representative of the family." Balla Sahib was carried away captive from Sattara with the Rajah Pertaub Shean, and expired of grief on the journey to Benares, leaving Shahoo Maharaj, born on that journey, a fatherless infant. And your Petitioner sheweth, that, by the Hindoo law universally obtainmg, it was abso- lutely obligaory upon the Rajah Pertaub Shean to adopt in his lifetime a son and heir accord- ins to tnat law ; and that such obligation was not only a legal, but also of a highly solemn and religious character, and binding upon the conscience of Pertaub Shean, and not to be (20. App.) evaded 12 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A, B.C. evaded or dispensed with ; and that the son so adopted according to Hindoo law acquires immediately, upon and by means of such adoption, the style, character, and capacity of a lawful son of tlie body, as well as of heir, of the prince or person so adopting him. And your Petitioner further sheweth, that, according to the laws of nations, being part and parcel of the municipal law of the British realm, and also according to the laws and customs of the Mahratta state and the other native states of India, and likewise according to the law and practice of the British Indian dominions, the right of a rajah of any Mahratta or Hindoo principality to give succession to the same by means of male adoption is, and hath ever been, an indisputable and immemorial right, and your Petitioner humbly submits that the same cannot now be lawfully questioned by the East India Company, or by any person or persons whomsoever. And your Petitioner further sheweth, that, upon the death of the Rajah Appa Sahib, the sovereignty of the state of Sattara and the public property, which by express letter and spirit of both treaties above mentioned descended of right to ihe next heir of the deceased rajah, were claimed and seized by the East India Company upon the pretence of a failure of male heirs to both rajahs. And your Petitioner further sheweth, that the infant Shahoo Maharaj, being not onl^ the adopted son of the Rajah Pertaub Shean, but also his male next of kin, and also the sole next of kin and heir of the Rajah Appa Sahib, even if the act of adoption had not taken place, he would according to law and to the second treaty have equally inherited upon the death of the Rajah Appa Sahib in such his character of male heir and next of kin, and that therefore, both by adoption and by blood, Shahoo Maharaj is now the undoubted lawful heir of the Rajah Pertaub Shean, as also of the Rajah Appa Sahib. And your Petitioner sheweth, that Shahoo Maharaj also claims to be entitled as heir to the private property and effects, real as well as personal, of the Rajah Pertaub Shean, and which were taken possession of by the East India Company on the rajah's captivity and removal to Benares in September 1839, and wliich were guaranteed to him by the East India Company expressly in addition to the annual allowance settled upon him at that time. And your Petitioner showeth, that the East India Company have hitherto wholly refused to accede to his applications made in this behalf, and have hitherto retained, and still do retain, possession of the state of Sattara and of the public and private property and effects belonging to Shahoo Maharaj, and claim in the name of the British nation the right to retain and appropriate the same, and that they have retained and appropriated the same accordingly; and that in particular, by a proclamation, dated the 12th day of May 1849, and published in India, the whole of the state of Sattara hath been, and is, in violation of the above treaties, and in confiscation of the rights of Shahoo Maharaj, annexed and declared to be annexed unto the Indian territories; and that the East India Company, in order to colour such unlawful appropriation and spoliation, pretend that the succession of the two rajahs, Pertaub Shean and Appa Sahib, has lapsed by failure of heirs, whereas your petitioner has shown, and does show, and is ready to verify the contrary of such pretence to be the truth ; first, by the written testimony above cited of Sir Robert Grant, Governor of Bombay ; secondly, by the evidence of H. B. E. Frere, esq., the Company's Resident at Sattara, affirming that no such failure hath occurred, the Resident having declared, in his letter to the Bombay Government, dated the 23d September 1848, " that there were numerous claimants to the throne (of Sattara), who would be able to estabhsh a very good prima facie case, in any court of justice in India, to be the rajah's heir by blood as against the British Government;" and having further written as follows : " I would take this opportunity of respectfully, but very earnestly, pressing on Government the risk of pronouncing any final decision, whether in favour of one adoption against another, or of the British Government against both, and against all other claimants, without allowing every party whose claim may be negatived the fullest possible opportunity, not only of himself stating the grounds of his own claim, but of answering all objections." And your Petitioner further sheweth, that he hath repeatedly presented to the East India Company his complaints touching the grievances and wrongs done to Shahoo Maharaj, and sought reparation for the same, but that all his complaints have been unheeded, or rejected without examination or inquiry ; and that, to add to these grievances, and also with the view of compeUing Shahoo Maharaj to renounce and abandon the prosecution of his claims in that behalf, the East India Company did for several years deny to him and to the widow or ranee of the Rajah Pertaub Shean, both detained prisoners at Benares (where the infant has been kept since his birth), the means of subsistence for himself and the said ranee, and for their retainers, until such time as they should agree to such written renuncia- tion or abandonment ; and as evidence of this conduct, your Petitioner humbly begs to refer to the following papers: No. 669 of 1850, laid before the honourable "The House of Commons, and ordered to be printed on the 5th day of August of that year ; thaitis to say, a despatch bearing date " Fort William, Foreign Department, 6th April 1850, signed Dalhousie, J. H. Littler, F. Currie, J. Lowis," and " addressed to the Honourable the Court of Directors of the East India Company," and a despatch in reply thereto, bearing date, " Foreign De- partment, India House, 10th July (No. 19), 1850," signed "J. Shepherd, J. W. Hogg,&c. &c." and addressed to " our Governor-general of India in Council." And your Petitioner further sheweth, that, in furtherance of their purpose of forcibly compelling this infant to agree to such renunciation and abandonment, the East India Com- pany have, by withholding from the ranee for about four years the means of subsistence for herself and her household, procured from her some document whereby she hath (as they allege) debarred herself of her right to concur with your Petitioner in his present petition ; but COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 13 but your Petitioner is advised and submits that, inasmuch as the ranee hath no jurisdiction Appendix, A. B. C. over Shaboo Maharaj, nor power to sign away his rights, he being an infant and a minor, any such document, even if the same be genuine or valid as against the ranee, and even if not extorted from her under duress and starvation, must be and is, as against Shahoo Maharaj, wholly inoperative and void. And your Petitioner lastly sheweth, that the amount of the annual revenues of the state of Sattara, so appropriated by the East India Company, is officially admitted now to be more than 142,000 I., and prospectively to be from 400,000 Z. to 500,000/. per annum, and that the amount in value of the public property and effects belonging or incident to the state exclusive of the revenues, is more than 45,000 Z., and the amount in value of the private or personal property and effects appropriated exceeds 300,000 Z. Further, that of the separate income derivable from real property, bought and left by the Rajah Pertaub Shean, and now appropriated by the East India Company, a portion is derived from lands situated in the territories of the East India Company, and is returned by Viscount Falkland, Governor of Bombay, as of the annual value of rupees 25,529, or 2,552/. That, by reason of Shahoo Maharaj being treated at Benares as a political prisoner, although denied to be a rajah either by birth or adoption, the local courts of the East India Company are prohibited from entertaining the matter of his complaint in the premises, while by reason of the forcible detention of his person by the same power which refuses to hear him, at the very same time that it degrades and beggars him, he is prevented from placing himself within the jurisdiction of Her Majesty's Supreme Courts in India, and seeking justice from them. Your Petitioner has, therefore, no possible hope nor human means of obtaining inquiry and redress for Shahoo Maharaj, except from the justice of your Honourable House, and from the supremacy and impartiality of British law. And therefore your Petitioner humbly prays that your Right honourable House will be pleased either to direct the restoration of Shahoo Maharaj to his rights and property in the pre- mises, or else to refer the matter of this petition, and the case and circumstances as therein set forth, to the consideration of the Committee of your Right honourable House now appointed to review the conduct of the East India Company in India, with instructions to take all evi- dence which shall be deemed requisite, and to require the production of all proceedings, correspondence, and documents in the possession, or power, or under the control of the East India Company, or their servants, relating to the premises, or of true and exact copies of such particulars respectively, and to report thereon to your Right honourable House. And your Petitioner will ever pray. RuNGO Bapojee, Vakeel of his Highness Shahoo Maharaj, Rajah of Sattara, now at Benares. PETITION for Inquiry into the present State of the Affairs of India ; of Pro- prietors of East India Stock, and British Subjects interested in the Welfare and Good Government of India. To the Right honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled. The Petition of the undersigned Proprietors of East India Stock, and other Persons, British Subjects, interested in the welfare and good government of India. Sheweth, That from the year 1765 to the year 1792, the limits of the British Territory in India remained almost stationary ; that in the year 1793 the revenues of British India amounted to 8,276,770 Z., the charges to 6,633,95 /., so that the territory then yielded a surplus revenue of 2,209,846 /., whilst the territorial debt amounted to 7,129,934 /. That between the years 1793 and 1813 large additions were made to that territory. That in the latter year (1813) the gross revenues of India amounted to 16,764,700 /., the charges to 16,899,362/., showing an excess of charges over revenue of 134,362/. ; that the debt in this period of 20 years had increased from 7,129,934/. to 26,970,786 /., or to nearly four times its original amount. That the Committee of the House of Commons on Indian Affairs, which sat in 1832, reported to your Honourable House, that up to that period the gross charges of the Indian territory had augmented in a greater proportion than the receipts. That in the year 1833, 20 years after 1813, the revenues amounted to 13,680,165/., the charges to 13,630,767 /., showing a surplus of revenue of 49,398 /., but which surplus was partly derived from the sale of the Company's commercial assets in India. That on the 1st April 1834 the debt amounted to 29,832,299 Z. "That on the 1st April 1849, 15 years after, when the whole of Hindostan had been brought under our sway, the revenues of India amounted to 18,227,350 /., the charges to 19,700,465 /., shewing an excess of charges over revenue of 1,473,115 /., while the debt had swollen to 48,124,119/. That from the year 1839-40 to 1849-50, the total charges of India were 183,369,206 Z., the total receipts 168,622,144/., showing an excess of charges over receipts during these 10 years of 14,747,062 /. (20. App.; D That 14 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT '^ppendiy, A. B. C That in 1839 the debt of India amounted to 32,269,178 /. ; in 1849, at the end of the next L • 10 years, it amounted to 48,124,119 1., and that the debt has since increased, and is at this moment increasing. That the revenues of India amounted, in 1839, to 14,549,262 /. ; in 1849, to 18,227,350 l, showing in this decennial period the debt has increased several times as fast as the revenue. That this increase of revenue moreover arises mainly from a source over which the British Government has no control, viz , from the sales of monopoly opium ; that as the receipts fiom this source were diminished by one-half upon the breaking cut of the last Chinese war, the same or more aggravated results may be produced whenever the Chinese government may choose to legahze the cultivation of the drug in China, or whenever other nations, such as the United States, attracted by its monopoly ""price in that empire, and now possessing boundless land in the Pacific adapted by natural fertility and a congenial climate to the ■ growth of the poppy, shall turn their energy and attention to the supplanting of the Com- pany's opium in China as successfnlly as they have supplanted the Company's cotton in England. That your Petitioners entertain a strong conviction that it would be impossible, at the present moment, to supply a deficiency in the opium revenue from any other source in India ; that the solvency of India, therefore, now depends, and has for many years depended, upon the stability of that monopoly. That up to the year 1834, the profits arising from the Company's exclusive trade were applied in aid of the Indian treasury ; that from that date all the home expenses, including the interest upon the home debt and the dividends paid to the proprietors of India stock, have been charged upon the territorial revenues of India. That the confident predictions, which had at all previous times been expressed, and which were again expressed by the Minister of India in 1832, of the competence of the revenues to bear all these additional charges, have not been realized ; that, on the contrary, every increase of territory has been followed by a greater increase of debt, making it manifest, that if England possessed the whole world on the same terms, and followed by the same results, as she possesses India, her condition would be one of irretrievable ruin. That such results prove that India regarded as a national acquisition, that is to say, as an acquisition made by British blood and British resources, and consequently as one in which every subject of the empire possesses a common right, and is entitled to claim an equal interest, was of far less real financial value in the year 1849 than it possessed in the year 1793, 56 years ago ; for whereas the surplus revenue of 1793 amounted to 2,209,846 I., and would at the same rate have amounted in the 56 years which have elapsed to the sum of 116,217,610 I., after paying off the then existing debt of 7,129,934 /., and exclusive of any accumulating interest during the period, the actual debt of India is shown to have amounted in 1849 to 48,124,119 I., thus making the total national loss, exclusive of interest incurred in the course of half a century, no less a sum than 164,341,729 /. sterling. That this sum, if it had accumulated at interest at 6 per cent, during 56 years, would have amounted to the sum of 625,290,172 /., a sum which would more than have sufficed to pay off three-fourths of the Ns^tional Debt of England, without the acquisition of another footof territory in India, or the imposition of an additional rupee of taxes on the people of India. That the financial state of India is, therefore, in the opinion of your Petitioners, such as to require a searching inquiry into all the departments of Government, both at home and abroad, in order that these may be placed upon a footing of the strictest economy consistent with efficiency; and in order that it may be determined by the light now afforded by nearly a century of experience, whether a country so acquired and so ruled as India has been by the East India Company, is a real element of national greatness and strength. That as the Government of India has assumed and exercises the rights of a landlord over all the soil of India, the obvious remedy for the financial embarrassment of that country is the employment of adequate sums for the development of its great productive resources, which are now either lying dormant or are altogether crushed ; that money raised by loan at low rates of interest, expended upon works of irrigation, in the formation of railroads, of common roads, and of bridges, and on the indispensable requirements of the rivers and harbours, almost wholly neglected, lying along a coast line of the length of 7,500 miles, a line equal to one diameter and one quarter of the globe, would, in the conviction of your J'etitioners, at once lighten the taxation of the people, stimulate their industry, raise their condition, greatly augment the general commerce of the country, and consequently increase vastly the public revenues. That there would be no difficulty in raising such loans in England to any prudent extent, if the Directors of the East India Company had publicly made known the small comparative cost at which the few public works they have attempted in India have been executed ; if they had shewed the great and yearly increasing profitable returns which those works are every- where yielding upon the capital expended ; if all works to be executed, and their returns, were offered to capitalists as the security for the loans to be raised, and if the faith of the British Government were pledged to the money so raised being scrupulously expended upon their execution. That your Petitioners beg to refer your Right honourable House to the evidence given in 1851 before ihe Committee upon official salaries for proof, that while the law professes to p'ace the Government of India in the East India Company, it really lodges that authority in the Minister of the Crown, who exercises it without direct Parliamentary responsibihty, and under the name of the Directors of that Company ; and that whenever the Secret Department is brought into operation, that body, in which the law professes to place the Government of India, is entirely set aside. That COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 15 That such a system is in principle unconstitutional, open to flagrant abuse, and rncon- Appendix A. 5. C. venient in practice, while it causes an enormous waste of public money and time. Your Petitioners further desire to bring to the notice of your Right honourable House, that from the first formation of the Board of Control in 1784 up to the present time, the instances in which the members of that Board have been actually resident in India are rare ; that at this moment there is not an individual belonging to it who has ever visited India ; that the Board, therefore, in which the Legislature has vested plenary powers for the government of India is usually wholly ignorant of the character, the feelings, and the wants of the people of India. That by Section 87th, 3 & 4 Will. 4 c. 85, it was enacted, that no native of India should be disqualified from holding office in India by reason of birth, caste or colour. That the avowed intention of the Legislature in passing this enactment, was that the natives should be allowed to participate in offices which, up to that time, had been exclu- sively held by the covenanted servants of the Company. That, in the opinion of your Petitioners, this enactment has been rendered inoperative by that part of the present system which places the patronage of India in the hands of the executive body of tlie East India Company ; namely, the 24 Directors. That it is the interest of this body to keep establishments in India at a maximum ; their duty to reduce establishments to a minimum ; it is their duty to give effect to the enactment above referred to ; their interest to make it, as it has been made, a dead ietter, because in proportion as natives are admitted to office in India is the initiatory patronage of the exe- cutive body diminished. That to the same cause must be ascribed, in the opinion of your Petitioners, the entire failure of what was considered a most important feature in the plan that was ratified by Parliament in 1833 ; viz., the allotment of important powers and functions in the adminis- tration of Indian affairs to the Court of Proprietors of India stock; the immense patronage at the command of the Executive, enabling the latter, at all times, to command a majority in that Court upon any question. Your Petitioners, therefore, earnestly solicit that those who may be hereafter entrusted with the Government of India, shall be adequately paid in money, and the patronage of India transferred to other hands. That your Petitioners beg to remind your Right honourable House that Parliament has twice declared it to be " repugnant to the wish, the honour, and the policy of this country to pursue schemes of conquest and extension of territory in India ;" that the Government of India has nevertheless recently expressed its determination to avail itself of every oppor- tunity that may occur of extending that territory, by making forfeitures and escheats of native states ; that your Petitioners, therefore, solicit that the law on this subject and the practice may be made to harmonize. That, as stated by one of the directors of the East India Company in the Court of Pro- prietors, " Our incessant encroachments and sequestrations of native territories make every native sovereign fear that he will be the next victim, while our constant territorial appro- priations and resumptions of rent-free lands, lead the people at large to fear that we are only anxious to make a government of officials on the one hand, and a nation of serfs on the other." Tiiat your Petitioners are -prepared with evidence to prove that this system of encroachment upon sacred rights has tended to alienate the affections of the people of India from British rule. That your Petitioners, therefore, request that a competent tribunal may be created in India for determining upon the pretensions of all persons who may claim to be heirs according to the law of India to any native state, principality, jagheer or estate, before the British Governrnent deals with any such as an escheat or declares it to be forfeited and annexed to the British territories. Tliat a Commission was appointed in 1833 to frame and compile, as was stated, a code of laws for the people of India; that though a very heavy expense has been ever since annually incurred in maintaining that Commission, no such code has been framed. Your Petitioners, therefore request your Honourable House to institute inquiries into the cause of this failure, and into the cost of this legislative experiment to the people of India. That when, by the Act of 3 & 4 passed in the reign of the late King, the Supreme Government of India, seated in Calcutta, was invested with a strict control over the subor- dinate Presidencies, it was the intention of the Legislature that such Government should be parllv composed of persons in the service of those Presidencies. That during the currency of the existino- Charter, only one individual from the Presidency of Madras has betn appointed to the Supreme Council, and not one from Bombay. That as the affairs of those Piesidencies are neglected and damaged by the absence from the Supreme Council of persons acquainted with them, your Petitioners pray that inquiry may be made into the cause of this omission, and the manner in which it has affected the welfare of the subordinate Your Petitioners, therefore, humbly pray that your Right honourable House will refer the matter of this petition, and the facts and statements therein set forth, for the mvestigation and report of the Committee of your Right honourable House appointed to review the conduct and affairs of the East India Company. And your Petitioners will ever pray. •^ (signed) Joseph Hume. [And 9 others]. (20.APP.) """" PETITION, 16 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix A. B. C. PETITION, praying for Redress of certain Grievances in connexion with the Expiration of the East India Company's Charter, of the Madras Native Association, and others, Native Inhabitants of the Presidency of Madras. Madras Native Association. Reyenue. To the Right honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled. The Humble Petition of the Madras Native Association, and others, Native Inhabitants of the Madras Presidency, Sheweth, 1. That your Petitioners, availing themselves of the Parliamentary investigation into the condition and government of British India, under the charter of the East India Company now near the term of its expiration, desire respectfully to place before your Right honourable House some few of the many grievances and wants belonging more immediately to the inhabitants of the Madras Presidency ; claiming at the same time the indulgence of your Right honourable House, should their statements be found less explicit than diffuse, from the impossibility of obtaining access to official documents, capable of substantiating so fully as your Petitioners could wish the various complaints they have the honour to |!resent : the local government having declined replying to a written application from the Association (dated 15th April 1852) for permission to have copies of necessary papers, and the officers of Government being prohibited from furnishing them. 2. That the grievances of your Petitioners arise principally from the excessive taxation, and the vexations which accompany its collection ; and the insufficiency, delay and expense of the Company's courts of law ; and their chief wants are, the construction of roads, bridges and works for the supply of irrigation ; and a better provision for the education of the people. They also desire a reduction of the public expenditure, and a form of local government more generally conducive to the happiness of the subject and the prosperity of the country ; and to these main points your Petitioners beg the consideration of your Right honourable House, respectfully applying in behalf of themselves and their countrymen for those remedies and reforms which, in the wisdom of your Right honourable House, may be deemed expedient and practicable. "With this brief explanation, your Petitioners proceed to detail : f 3. That, the Hindus being for the most part an agricultural people, the chief revenue of the state is derivable from its crops, which have been taxed or assessed under different modes by the Hindu, Mahomedan and EngHsh Governments respectively. With the Hindus, the revenue was collected from each village, through the medium of persons making over to the officers of government its division of the produce in kind, amounting from one-sixth in time of peace, and to one-fourth in times of war or state emergency, as laid down in the Institutes of Manu, translated by Sir William Jones, chapter vii. verse 127,— "Let the king oblige traders to pay taxes on their saleable commodities, — of grain an eighth part, a sixth i or a twelfth, according to the difference of the soil, and the labour necessary to cultivate it :" and in chap. 10. v. 118, — " A military king who takes even a fourth part of the crops of his realm at a time of urgent necessity, as of war or invasion, and protects his people to the utmost of his power, commits no sin :" and v. 120,—" The tax on the mercani'ile class, which in times of prosperity must only be a twelfth part of their crops, may be an eighth of their crops in a time of distress, or a sixth, which is a medium, or even a fourth, in great public adversity." 4. That this proportion continued to be exacted till the invasion of the Mahomedans, as is apparent from Ferishta, translated by Briggs, where it is found, page 453, vol iv.— " One of the eariiest acts of the first King Cashmere in the year a.d. 1326 was to confirm for ever the ancient land-tax, which ameunted to 17 per cent., or about one-sixth of the whole produce of the land ;" and in the Ayeen Akbery, vol. i. part ii. p. 245, it is stated,—" In former tunes the monarchs or Rajahs of Hindosthan only exacted one-sixth of the produce from the cultivator." But in the early part of Mahomedan rule, according to Ferishta, the King of Delhi raised the tax to one-half the produce; that of the wet cultivation being dehvered m kind, and of the dry, generally in money, at a fixed commutation; and the zamindary system havmg been then introduced, the payments were made to the zamindars, who were either farmers of the assessment, or persons to whom districts had been granted by the ruhng power, in return for past, or the expectation of future services. 6. That when the British Government first assumed territorial property and rights in this part of India m 1759, they found the Northern Circars divided into zumindaries, pallams and ain-lands. In the last-mentioned the ryots paid government dues to the servants of the state, or to renters, who farmed the revenue: in the two former,, the dues were paid to the zamindars COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 17 zamindars and poligars, who held their property hereditarily and disposably, so long as they Appendix, A. B. C. paid the peishcush or tribute, in consideration of which, the management of the lands had been made over to them ; and this practice was permitted to continue Unaltered till the year 1769, when three boards, or councils, were established, who managed the revenues, and ruled the country till the year 1789, when a fixed settlement was made with the zamindars, whose revenues were estimated, and they were made to pay one-third of their rental to the Government ; and the lands hitherto managed by stipendiary officers, or farmers, being; placed under the control of collectors, were parcelled out into divisions, called moottahs, and their tenures sold by public auction. The same plan was acted upon in the new acquisitions of the honourable Company, till the year 1799, when the permanent settlement of Lord Cornwallis was ordered to be introduced, although in the interim, on the occup ition of Baraniahal and Dindis;ul in 1793, Colonel Read had been making out a new plan, which, on the failure of that of Lord Cornwallis, after a trial of three years, 1803-4-5, eventuated in the ryotwar system, which, with very slight modification, is now prevalent in seventeen out of the twenty collectorates forming the Madras Presidency, under which the entire assessment is collected in money, and from each individual cultivator, directly by the deputed servants of the State. fi. That your Petitioners, as Hindus, and naturally attached to their national and ancestral customs, have had, and continue to have, the greatest repugnance to the innovations of both the zamindary and ryotwar systems ; the more so, as they are both the instruments of injustice and oppression, but especially the ryotwar, the operation of which has reduced the %ot"'»'^- agricultural classes to the deepest poverty and destitution. 7. That this system was introduced for the double purpose of preventing the accumulation of landed property by the natives, — the zamindarships being hereditary, — regarding which, when reconjmending the ryotwar system, Sir Thomas Munro records in his Minute of the 15th August 1807, the following observation : "That the great zamindar defies all authority, and will keep the ryots as poor as they have always been, and the small one, or mootahdar, will endeavour to imitate him in his state and armed followers ; that though most of the mootiihs will finally resolve into ryotwar farms, many of the greater ones will assume the character of zamindaries or poligarshipsj; that^the country will be filled with petty armed chiefs, wh© may hereafter combine to disturb the public tranquillity ; and that the system is, on the whole, detrimental to the country, and dangerous to Government." And the desire of rendering each individual cultivator immediately dependent on the authority of the State, while it was imagined that it would altogether exempt him from the vexatious inter- meddling of the subordinate servants of the Government ; consequently it involved the parcelling out of the whole country into innumerable small portions, varying from one to ten or more acres, or whatever standard of land-measure miijht happen to be that common in the district. This could not be effected without a complete measurement of euch province into which the system had to be successively introduced, and of course the separate valuation of every minute portion, in order to fix the precise rate of its individual assess- ment. 8. That this most intricate and at the same time gigantic plan was commenced without the aid of a single ' surveying instrument, except a chain of 33 feet, or a glimpse of scientific knowledge beyond that of the native cutchery gomastahs or clerks, who, as a part of their duty, were to instruct others in the art of mensuration, an art in which, being completely untaught themselves, they had to acquire from no better education than the pro- gress of their own survey. These clerk surveyors were paidiJ*. 21 ptr month, and " were encouraged to be expeditious by the hope of gain, and deterred from being inaccurate by the fear of dismissal;" and when to the utter incompetency of these clerk measurers is added the fact that the fields of a village are often confusedly intermixed, not only among them- selves, but with the fields of otheV villages, as, for instance, in a part of the Sheally Talook of the Tanjore collectorate, where, within the space of two-and-a-half square miles, there are parts of seventeen villages, and even these parts of villages are each not a single con- nected piece of land, but the combination of several detached fragments, whde in some places two or more villages are coniposed of fields belonging to one and another village alternatply, and others, where four-fifths of a single field belong to one village, and one-fifth to another, it will be manifest that anything like a correct survey, or even an approximation to it, must have been an absolute impossibility, and it is a well-known and positive fact that there is not, and never has been, any establishment whatever for land suiveying, neither has a correct survey been made of any individual portion of the Madras territories up to this day. 9. That one of the immediate consequences of this gomastah measurement was a vast increase in the quantity of land over the ancient measurement by the curnums of villages, the persons who are stated by Sir T. V. Stonhouse, a revenue officer of acknowledged ability, in his " Observations on the Ryotwar of the Madras Presidency," " to have cer- tainly the best knowledge of land measuring 'of any other class of persons in India." This increase in some districts was so great as 75 per cent., and, as it was impracticable to aug- ment the revenue in the same proportion, the new measurement in these particular cases had to be adjusted by the old, a convincing proof that the attempt was a helpless failure. 10. That in proceeding from the survey to the classification of the land, the task was scarcely less foimidable, and it was begun by sending two assessors to classify the space r20:App.) E •"'^^^'^'■^'^ 18 APPENDIX, TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. measured by ten surveyors ; their business was to arrange it under the principal divisions of wet, dry and garden land, subdividing these again into various classes, according to the presumed quality, by a process so perfectly arbitrary, that in some districts the wet land had 12 classes, the dry 20, and the garden land as many ; in others the wet had 4 classes, the dry 12, and the garden 4, while it was of continued occurrence that two fields adjoining each other would be entered in different classes, and even single fields were placed in the same improbable, if not impossible category. As might have been expected, these assessors, part'y from ignorance, and partly from the persuasion of bribery, made a great many erroneous classifications, and accordingly it was tiiought advisable, for the sake of producing uniformity and checking abuses, to appoint five head assessors, selected from the body of subordinate ones ; but even these could not be trusted for judgment and impartiality, and the whole of their revisions had to undergo a complete examination at the collector's cutchery. 11. That the classification having been thus settled, not by the returns of the assessors, but by the arbitrary opinion of the cutchery, the next step was to fix such a sum as it was thought would be the fair assessment for the district in its then present state, that fur- nished by the assessors being mistrusted equally with their classification, which operation immediately reduced the assessors' estimate from 5 to 15 per cent, on the aggregate; and the next step was to distribute the sum fixed as the aggregate of the district among the different villages it contained, thus causing a second alteration in the assessors' estimates, and by which, what was deducted from one set of villages, was added to another ; after this a third alteration had to be made at the end of the year, causing a further reduction on fields asserted by the cultivators to have been over-assessed, and it usually amounted froml to 1| per cent. 12. That, having thus briefly alluded to the utter futility of the measurement, and the fal- lacious classification of the land, your Petitioners would next call the attention of your Right honourable House to the amount of the assessment and its commutation into money. The amount exacted under the Hindu Princes never exceeded one quarter, or 25 per cent, on the gross produce ; this the Mahoroedans doubled, acting on the principle that the rights of a conquered country cease and determine by the act of conquest, the proprietary right of the land being transferred to the conquerors, and that, as it is lawful to take the whole of the persons and property of infidels, and to distribute them among the Musselmans, it fol- lows that taking only half their incomes was an act of mercy. 13. That this amount of revenue, fixed by the principles of the Koran, has continued to be exacted by the East India Company, but your Petitioners apprehend without the same appearance of justice; for, to say nothing of the difference of creed, the way in which the Com- pany obtained possession of the country is strikingly dissimilar. The Mahomedans con- quered by and for themselves, but from the earliest date of the Company's acquisitions on the coast of Coromandel they have always had the assistance of the natives of the country; first as armed peons, and subsequently as trained soldiers, who have stood by them in all their battles, whether against other European powers, or the Mahomedan dynasties from whom the conquest was achieved, and who now form seven-eighths of the military force by which the British territories are defended ; consequently the people claim to be regarded by the English as friendly allies, rather than infidels and vanquished enemies ; and, as the Com- pany profess to govern for the benefit of the country, as well as for their own, something more ought to be left to the cultivator than the miserable pittance required for the support of himself and family, and for seed ; and yet even so much as this pittance is not left him under the operation of the ryotwar system. 14. That, adopting the amount of one-half as the revenue due to the State, the authorities of the day commuted this share into money, in what way your Petitioners cannot say, as Colonel Munro, the principal agent and authority, has not explained it in any of his reports, nor has he imparted any information as to the data and principles on which he formed his tables of rates for the different classes of lands, and even up to this date there is no fixed system of commutation ; but diffierent modes are practised, not only in different districts, but even in the various sub-divisions of each district. The immediate consequence of this com- mutation was a gradual and general fall in the price of all grains, which for a long series of years past has been so low as to reduce all but the most substantial ryots to a state of almost beggary ; thus, for instance, as in the southern division of Arcot, where the priie at the date of its sarvey was five cullums per pagoda, on a piece of land producing 100 cullums, the half share of 50 cullums being converted into money, paid the Government the sum of 10 pagodas ; but as the present price is seven cullums per pagoda, the ryot must dispose of 70 in order to rneet the assessment, retaining for his share only 30, which gives him 42-7th8 pagodas in the place of 10, while the Government receives 10 pagodas as the half share of 142-7ths pagodas, the selling price of the 100 cullums; and a similar deterioiation in the value of grain has taken place throughout the whole Presidency. 15. That the extent of this evil is shown in a voluminous Minute of the Board of Revenue, dated 5th January 1818, which acknowledges that, "while the ryotwar survey ass( ssment professed to fix an equal and moderate tax in money on each field, in almost every instance it greatly increased the Government demand upon the country. In Dindiaul it nearly doubled the public assessment : in Barahmahal it increased it 21 per cent. In' the northern division COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 19 division of Arcot the additional imposts and illegal exactions of the renters under the Appendix, A. B. C [former] native governments were, by the ryotwar survey, incorporated with the land. rent. • In Nellore the highest rate of teerva [money payment] fixed on the finest land was alone declared to be the ultimate limit of the Government demand upon all laud ; and even in the ceded districts, where it was perhaps most moderate, the demand on the land was raised so high as to be in general greatly beyond the resources of the people." 16. That Sir Thomas Munro having returned to Europe in the year 1807, and these evils of the ryotwar exceeding all bounds, the Government of Madras had recourse in the year 1808 to the partial inlroduction of the village settlement; first, for three, and subse- quently for ten years. Under ihe triennial settlement the lands were rented out to contrac- tors, the average collection being taken into consideration, and the highest proposals accepted ; and, this being found but little less objectionable than the ryotwar system, the next resource was the decennial settlement, on the principle of assessing for the said term of years a fixed sum as public revenue, and, in consideration of the payment of that sum, making over for that period the Government right to the public revenue from the entire land of the whole village, both arable and waste, to the village community, by a direct settlement with the whole body of ryots collectively, or with the heads of the village. When the Tillage was not rented in this manner, the public revenue was collected, either by an inter- mediate lenter, or by the officers of Government, and in kind or money, as might be the local custom. 17. That this system was progressing in a manner most favourable to the ryots and the public revenue, when in the year 1818, the Court of Directors having determined upon enforcing the ryotwar, ordered it to be resumed, and.'prosecuted under a modified form, called the field ryotwar; and when, in the year 1820, Sir Thomas Munro arrived in Madras hs Governor of the Presidency, the exorbitant taxation of the old system was sought to be alleviated by a reduction of ths assessment, to the amount of 25 per cent, on dry and wet lands, and 33 per cent, on garden lands, in the ceded districts, where the Board of Revenue esteemed the assessment " most moderate." A reduction of 12| per cent, was also made in the district of North Arcot, and similar reductions were directed to be made in other dis- tricts, conditionally. Remissions are likewise taking place on account of failure of crops from year to year ; but these partial changes, forced upon the Government by necessity, have little or no effect on the evils inherent to the system, which press the more heavily on the ryots, because it is almost entirely under the management of the collector's deputy, the tehsiidar, who, as his executive officer, possesses all the power of the collector, fiscal, police, judicial, and miscellaneous, and the control not only of his own immediate establishment, but over all the village officers within his district, which contains, on an average, from 100 to 300 villages, with a revenue from 1 lack to 2^ lacks of rupees. 18. That the tehsiidar of each talook— such is the denomination given to his division — on the 12th day of July in every year, proceeds (in some places by himself, in others by his subordinates) to fix the quantity of land to be taken up collectively and individually for the year ensuing. By this settlement, called the dittum, or fixation, each ryot ought, by the 4th section of " Standard Manual of Rules," dated 10th January 1850 — " occupants of land are at liberty to enlarge or contract their holdings in both cases (/'. e. as to increase or decrease) by entire fields" — to have only such land as he chooses to accept ; but really, owing to the tehsildar's authority, he is compelled to take such as this officer is pleased to appoint, and it is only by the force of bribes, smaller or larger, according to circumstances, that the ryot is permitted to escape from an oppressive allotment as regards its quality. 19. That at the time of this settlement all the poorer ryots, by far the more numerous of the entire body, stand in need of advances for the purchase of bullocks lost during the past year, as well as for seed, the repair of their own wells and implements, and in order to procure hired assistance from those who have not taken up any dittum ; and the cirkar or government generally allows advances of money, called tuccavy, to be made on this account, security bonds being taken from the surety ; but as the allowed sum is always far too little to meet the wants of all the apphcants, there is necessarily a competition for the tehsildar's favour in its distribution, for which he obtains from the successful candidates a bonus or deduction from their respective advances, averaging 10 per cent, upon the whole tuccavy ; and thus the ryotwar system, whilst it professes to raise the ryot from poverty to indepen- dence by inducing him to cultivate on his own account, actually tends to saddle him with an annually augmenting load of debt, and converts him from a poor but free labourer into a beggar and a slave. On the general effects of this system of encouraging cultivation, your Petitioners quote the following remarks from the work of Sir T. V. Sionhouse, belore quoted : — . . • ■ i r c- rr n/r > " As regards tuccavy, or advances for cultivation, it was a pnnciple of bir 1. Munro s Report, 15th August ryotwar that tuccavy was to be gradually discontinued; and has it been so even in the 1807. tuccavy advances in Bellary are so large as very recently, I believe, to have attracted thi notice of Government, and to a call for explanation ; and it ir* only in consequence of th lie le _- - _ - _ 1^ stringent orders from' the Court of DirectoVs, four or five years back, that^ the annual advances for tuccavy, in the several districts, have been considerably reduced. The average (20. App.) '"^^'^"^^^ 20 APPENDIX. TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEMT BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. advances of the last five years have been only Rs. 3,62,872,* while that of the preceding five, _!_' ' years was i?s. 6,73,o79,t and in previous years still larger; and the discontinuance of tuccavy, in the course of time, like the rest of the advantages expected from the introdnc- timi of the ryotwar system, has proved a mere illusion, and one of the many fanciful theories of the system doomed to end in no practical result." It often happens, when impoverished ryots absent themselves on the day of dittum, to avoid having again forced upon them the occupancy of lands by which they incurred loss. at the previous jummabundy, that these lands are forced by the tehsildar on one or other of the lyots who are present ; and when there is a failure of rain for the cultivation of the dry lands, which pay a lighter assessment than the wet, if the ryot should have recourse to the water of the tanks or reservoirs, instead of being charged the fixed water-fee levied on wet jcinds, he is compelled to pay the full assessment for a wet crop. 20. That the aforesaid water-fee is levied for the declared purpose of repairing the tanks, and keeping up the usual means of irrigation ; but, notwithstanding the tax is levied for this purpose, the ryots are compelled to make all the repairs required within a certain amount ; and whenever the means of irrigation is impeded, as it always is when in the mon- soon rains the water-floods fill up the channels with sand, ihe ryots are forced, under penalty of heavy fines, to quit their agriculture, in order to clear out the channels, although many miles distarit from their habitations, hiring labourers to do their work in their absence, and without receiving any remuneration for their labour; and the overseers of this business being the Government servants, they have thus a perpetual occasion for the exercise of oppression and injustice; for the tehsildar, being invested with magisterial powers, can and does confine, at his own cutcherry, all ryots who resist his demands, and whom he carries in custody along with him from place to place, as he shifts his cutcherry, until he coerces them to obedience. 21. That these are a few of the many grievances endured under the ryotwar, between the settlement of the dittum, on the 12th July, and the fixation of the kist or money amount of the assessment, called, jummabundy, which takes place from the month of December to that of March followini;, when another officer of the collector, called the sheristadar, or head revenue officer, aided by his subordinates, proceeds to examine the dittum, and to declare the amount payable by each individual ryot, according to the previous settlemeat of the tehsildar, after having deducted the Governriient remissions, on account of crops that have fallen short, owing to damage from the weather or drought, from an insufficiency of irrigation. 22. That it is an easy thing to make this jummabundy an instrument of the grossest tyranny, the single word of the sheristadar being that which determines whether there shall be any remission, and how much, or none. On the wet lands, or those cultivated by irri- gation, no remission is permitted, unless the produce has fallen short of the average to the amount of 10 per cent.; the ryot may then apply for a remission ; but, as by the Govern- ment regulations the verification of the sheristadar is indispensable, in order to render the application successful in the ear of the collector, the sheristadar has every applicant at his mercy; besides which, during the whole time of this settlement, the collector's establish- ment has to be supplied with provisions by the ryots gratis. 23. That the only check upon these multitudinous and never-ceasing oppressions, viz. an appeal to the superior officer, is the adaltion of mockery to misery. The tehsildar will receive no complaint against his inferiors, and when the ryot would approach the collector, his petition will be stopped, if possible, in its way by the jewabnevis, or interpreter; or should the petition reach its destination, it is read to the collector by this officer, who having generally the opportunity of a previous perusal, and taking advantage of the collector's imperfect acquaintance with the vernacular, adroitly omits the most important parts, and foists in qualifying language of his own ; but should a hearing be eventually granted, in spite of all ob-tacles and trickeries (if the ryot can produce no witness, every ryot being more or less afraid to come forward from dread of future injury), his complaint is rejected, as unworthy of credence ; and if he produces several witnesses, it shares the same fate, on the plea that he has hatched a conspiracy in support of a falsehood. Should the ryot then carry his appeal to the Board of Revenue", the complaint is transmitted to the collector, wh6, in reply, gives the wrong to the ryot and the right to the Government servants ; and, in virtue of this reply, the ryot is denied further inquiry. Sometimes, indeed, the appeal is carried as far as the Governor in Council, and even, though very seldom, to the Court of Directors; but as the court sees through the eyes of Government, the Government through those Co.'sRs. 1839-40 - 3,82,366 1840 -41 - 3,16,704 184J -42 - 3,51,565 iB4;j -43 3,53,569 1843 -44 3,60,178 Average - 3,52,872 Co.'sRs. t 1834^35 7,10,909 1835-36 - 6,67,930 1836-37 - 6,01,761 1837-38 . 6,42 624 1838-39 - 6,44;674 Average 6,73,579 COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 21 those of the Board of Revenue, the Revenue Board through those of the collector, and the Appendix A. B.C. collector through those of his sheristadars and tehsildars, the ryot is in every case handed over to his original tyrants and tormentors, to whom he must make pecuniary amends for his fruitless attempt to obtain redress, or stand the consequences at the next arrangement of the dittum and jummabundy, by the very Government officers from whose vexatious exactions it was pretended to set him free, by the introduction of the ryotwar system. 24. That the jummabundy having thus finally determined by the end of March the amount payable by each ryot, he is bound to liquidate it prior to the ensuing month of July, the period for the settlement of the next dittum ; and as the three intervening months are precisely those in which the price of grain is at the lowest, in consequence of the recent harvest, he has to undergo a third series of losses and misfortunes, from the circumstance of his being compelled within that time to turn so much of his crop into ready money as will suffice to realize the sum specified for the Government kist. 25. That although this space of three months is nominally allowed for the realization of the kist, still the tehsildar, with whom the collection rests, is very anxious to obtain the instalments as early as possible, in order that he may at once preserve the good opinion of the collector, and avoid the fine to which he is liable, should not the whole or the greater part be liquidated before the period of limitation has expired ; and accordingly he is con- stantly urging the ryot to dispose of his crop, which he has been permitted to reap, on giving security to the village officer that the money shall be paid, and liquidate, if not the whole, at least a part of the amount ; this urging comprehending the sending for the ryot, and confining him in the cutcherry, until he shall have undertaken, in presence of witnesses, to pay a stipulated instalment on a certain day ; by which the ryot, in addition to the loss he sustains by being detained from his labour, perhaps a week or 10 days at a time, is forced to part with so much of his crop, whether cut or standing, for any price which the nearest grain merchant, taking advantage of his pressing necessity, chooses to oiFer ; and this process of urging on the part-of the tehsildar, and of sacrificing his property on the part of the ryot, continues till, perhaps — for the occurrence is not unfrequent — the disposal of the entire crop failing to raise the money-payment of the amount due to the State, the poor ryot has to sell his bullocks, his farming utensils, and the little rest of his property, in order to make up the deficiency. 26. That, in order to possess your Right honourable House with some idea of the cruelties under which the ryotwar system can be, and actually is, exercised by the Government servants, your Petitioners will quote an instance occurring in the year 1851, when certain ryots in the zillah or collectorate of Guntoor, unable to obtain redress from the collector, the commissioner, and the Board of Revenue, presented a petition to the Governor in Council, to the following effect : — That at the dittum settlement of the previous year, on their refusal to accept the dittum offered to them by the tehsildars of six different talooks, because it included lands that had been relinquished, and others which were not liable to assessment, and because the lands bearing assessment were then re-measured with new ropes, shorter by one cubit than the legal measure, some of them were compelled, by impri- sonn^ent and corporal punishment of various kinds, to put their names to the dittums ; and when others ran away from their talooks, to avoid the like treatment, the curnums of the villages forged the names of those who had absconded to the dittums that were assigned to them ; they wlio remained complained to the collector, who said the dittums should not be altered, and refused redress ; and when the jummabundy came round, on their refusal to pay the excess of the assessment, the houses of the ryots were stripped of their roofs ; their ploughs, ploughing cattle, grain seed, and forage for their grazing cattle, were seized by attachment, and sold by auction ; some ryots were arrested as security for the balance still unpaid from the proceeds of the auction ; the houses of others were broken into and plun- dered by the peons, who were paid batta from the proceeds of the sales ; their herd cattle were not permitted to graze, and their families prohibited taking water from the tanks and wells for domestic purposes. Their petition to the Governor in Council was transmitted to the collector in the usual way, when that officer apphed for two years' leave of absence ; and there the matter rests to this day ; and, although your Petitioners confine themselves to a single and recent example, they do not scruple to assert that, in a greater or less degree, these practices are prevalent throughout every division of the Presidency. 27. That while such are the evils of the ryotwar, as respects the state and condition of the people, it entails no small share of evil upon the Government, from the large establish- ment which has to be entertained for the collection of the revenue ; on which point your Petitioners beg to solicit the notice of your Right honourable House to the description given by Sir T. V. slonhouse, in the work to which they have already referred : " The cause of the heavy charges of management under the ryotwar system is its endless and varied details, requiring a multiplicity of revenue officers in the talooks to keep the accounts, and so on, through every gradation of office, from the tahsildar to the Board of Revenue. I do not hesitate to say that at the very lowest, one-third of the public expenditure now incurred in maintaining the ryotwar system would be saved under a village lease or aumany settlement, and more especially the establishment of a native board of revenue would be saved. I do not mean to affirm that this establishment is necessary even for ryotwar management, for I do not believe it to be so, and the Board of Revenue conducted Its duties as efficiently before its creation. With practical revenue officers as members of the Board of Revenue, it cannot be required, and its expense is not confined to itself, as (20. App.) F *«° 22 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. the sheristadar cannot be supposed to know the language of all district servants who are entertained in the several coUeetorates, to render the accounts into Mahratta, that they may be intelligible to the Board's sheristadar, his deputy and establishment. The formation of this unhealthy excrescence on the charges collection of this Presidency by Sir T. Munro, would have looked better had not his old and favourite ceded district servants been selected by him to fill the principal offices created by it. The charges collection of this Presidency have increased on an average from 12 to 15 lakhs of rupees per annum since the introduc- tion of the ryotwar system, and the diflference would have been still larger but for the abo- lition of the principal collectorships, and other reductions rnade in late years in the salaries of collectors, and of their establishments, the effect of which has been to leave the latter inefficient, and insufficient to carry on satisfactorily a system of revenue management so comphcated and detailed as that of the ryotwar." " During the decennial rents, or from 1809-10 to 1819-20, the charges collection for the year amounted on an average, in round numbers, to Rs. 25,76,000. The charges for each year are exhibited in the margin.* The charges collection since that period, or from 1820-21 to 1843-44, a period of 24 years, have averaged 38,49,000, exhibiting an average excess of annual charge, compared with the former period, of iJ*. 12,73,000; but the average of a similar period of 11 years, or from 1830-34 to 1843-44, is 40,74,000, and gives an excess annualcharge of jRs. 14,98,000, or nearly 15 lakhs of rupees — the charges collection in each year exhibited in the margin." f " If there are advantages, therefore, in the ryotwar system, the Government pays dearly for them. It might be fitting a great and enlightened Government to make such sacrifices for real and admitted benefits ; but, so far from being admitted, they have from first to last been questioned, the system denounced as vicious by many of the ablest revenue officers of the Government, and their existence in no way substantiated even by the advocates of ryotwar, or by practical results." " It is not on the score merely of an expensive establishment that the ryotwar system proves so heavy a drag on the finances of the Government. There is a further expense inherent in it, from which other systems are comparatively free, viz., charges for the repairs of tanks and other sources of irrigation. This is a heavy annual drain upon the revenue of the country, and much of it, owing to the defectiveness of local check and supervision, unprofitably spent, or rather not spent at all, but which finds its way into the pockets of the public servants. Even so far back as 1 828, the Court of Directors noticed the heavy charge it occasioned on the finances of the country, and observed that, although they were far from entertaining a wish that anything necessary for so desirable an object as the irriga- tion of the country should be withheld, it was of high importance that these charges should be under the strictest control, and be distinctly brought to their notice at the periods of their necessary occurrence. The amount expended on this account, from 1805-6 to 1843-44, has been upwards of 243 lakhs of rupees, and the average expenditure of the last five years has been upwards of six lakhs.J " Under a zemindary settlement the Government is relieved from this heavy annual expense, and under a village settlement is relieved of a great portion of it; for, under a village rent, fixed on the low scale adopted for a ryotwar settlement, there would be no necessity for the Government to undertake, or be responsible for, repairs beyond those of masonry works. All earthwork to bunds of tanks, and the clearing of channels, should devolve upon the villagers, who would do it much more eifectually in their own way, and at not a third of the amount disbursed by Government on such works. Such a measure would only be a return to the usage of the country. Another disadvantage of this system, of throwing the whole expense of tank, &c., repairs on the Government is, that it forces culti- vation, and militates against that principle of the ryotwar system which leaves the cultivator at liberty to cultivate as much or as little as he pleases. This is a fundamental rule of the ryotwar system. ' It must be clearly understood,' say the Board, ' that the revenue is to continue as at present, subordinate to justice ; that freedom of labour to the ryots is, by the Court of Directors themselves, declared to be the basis of "the new settlement, and that, therefore, no restraint whatever inconsistent with it can be imposed upon them.' The same principle was also clearly prescribed by Sir T. Munro himself during his government. 'The to Board o?Revenue' ^^^^^ should be allowed to cultivate as much or as little as they please ; they will always occupy as much land as they can cultivate profitably, and it is not the interest of Govern- ment that they should cultivate more.' " Every revenue officer knows that if this rule were observed, the Government would scarcely receive half of the revenue it now does. If ryots were allowed to cultivate as much or as little as they please, or, to use the language of Government, those lands only which they could Minute, 6th January 1818. From Government, Co.'s Rs. Co.'s Rs. * 1809-10 - 24,18,074 t 1833-34 - 37,70,351 1810-11 - 23,76,847 1834-36 - 39,30,127 1811-12 - 24,11,364 1835-36 - 40,33,118 1812-13 - 26,63,864 1836-37 - 40,32,928 1813-14 - 23,98,741 1837-38 - 41,31,461 1814-15 24,34,426 1838-39 - 41,37,619 1815-16 24,41,683 1839-40 - 41,64,394 1816-17 - 26,46,143 1840-41 - 41,43,481 1817-18 - 27,40,360 1841-42 - 40,92,919 1818-19 - 29,21,152 1842-43 - 41,37,218 1819-20 - 28,88,462 1843-44 - 42,46,247 Co.'sSs. i 1839-40 - 6,62,877 1840-41 - 7,11,163 1841-42 - 6,10,184 1842-43 - 6,32,819 1843-44 - 6,10,668 Average - 6,03,620 COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 23 could cultivate profitably, a very large portion of the land now under the plough would be jippendix, A. B. C. thrown up. In practice it is altogether different ; and, whatever impressions may be entertained by tlie Board of Revenue, the Government, or the home authorities, the truth is, that culti- vation is forced all over the country. The tahsildars, in spite of rules and regulations, will not allow of the relinquishment of lands, for this reason, that as tahsildar, it is his endeavour, for his own credit and character, to bolster up the revenue of his talook. I say, that cultivation is forced all over the country, and it is right that it should be so to a certain extent, with reference to lands dependent on sources of irrigation, for the preservation of which the Government incurs an annual heavy expense. It was a principle laid down by Sir T. Munro himself, and how he reconciled it in his own mind with his principle of an entire freedom of occupancy, and with the privilege he accorded to the ryot of cultivating as much or as little as he pleased, I am unable to discover. In his Minute of the 31st December 1824, Sir T. Munro declares, that * Government, by the construction of tanks and watercourses, supplies the water, which is the chief article of expense in wet cultivation, and has a right to see that the lands on account of which it has incurred so heavy a charge, are not, without necessity, left uncultivated or exempted from their share of the public burthens.' " 28. That at the same time the system can boast no superior excellence as affecting the improvement of the revenue, as is apparent from the annexed quotation, taken from the same work : " The marginal statement* exhibits t'oe land revenue of Madras from 1820, from which time the ryotwar has been generally the mode of settlement up to 1844- The average of the first six years is, J?«. 331,98,788; of the next six years, U*. 31 1,53,725 ; of the next six years, i?s. 304,24,093 ; and of the last six years, Bs. 330,51,584. Duiing the second six years the average fell below the preceding six about 20 lakhs of rupees ; during the next six it experienced a further fall of about seven lakhs, and though the average revenue of the last six shows an increase of about 26 lakhs over the preceding six years, it is still below the average of the first six years. During the last six years there has been a succession of most favourable seasons and abundant produce, and hence the exceeding low price of grain which has been so much felt all over the country for the last four or five years. These results, however, go to prove conclusively that the ryotwar system is not calculated to improve the revenue. The land revenue of Bellary and Cuddapah since 1820, is exhibited in the margin, and it will be seen if there has been much improvement even there." " Sir T. Munro has stated, that under a ryotwar settlement, the annual fluctuations in the Report, 15th Awgust amount of revenue will never be so great as to cause any serious inconvenience. It would 1807. never in any one year exceed 10 per cent, in an aggregate of six or eight collectorates, though it mio'ht be more in a single one. It would gradually diminish as the ryots became proprietors, and would in 10 or 12 years scarcely ever be above 5 per cent." " Now, a glance at the marginal statement will demonstrate whether Sir T. Munro's expectations can in any degree be considered to have been realised, even with his low assess- ment of the government tax, being only, as in the zamindary settlement, one-third of the gross produce. In Bellary we find the revenue in 1827 falling nearly four lakhs of rupees below the preceding year; in 1833 we find it falling three lakhs below that of the preceding year • and even as recently as 1838, falling nearly 4^ lakhs of rupees below the revenue of the precedino' year, or from 20 to 25 per cent. In Cuddapah we find it in 1832 falling five lakhs, or to RsllSk lakhs, from 18,80,000 which it had been in the previous year. The total revenue of Bellary, for the first 12 years of the period embraced in the marginal statement given Years. Company's Rupees. Years. Bellary. Cuddapah. •1820 328,63,353 1820 22,78,817 23,62,350 1821 325,88,266 1821 24,16,166 21,33,612 1822 339,78,987 1822 23,81,179 22,13,651 1823 31 i, 14,471 1823 19,68,642 17,43,159 1824 351,36,829 1824 21,73,923 19,28,795 1825 335,11,824 1825 22,74,787 19,62,645 1826 324,69,795 1826 22,52,652 20,26,103 1827 338,12,258 1827 18,90,391 17,99,465 1828 319,02,757 1828 21,93,984 18,48,984 1829 309,32,388 1829 19,31,665 18,42,840 1830 308,66,127 1830 20,15,362 19,30,602 1831 299,39,024 1831 20,05,976 18,80,170 1832 266,06,577 1832 16,97,926 13,51,213 1833 312,92,925 1833 20,93,708 18,69,458 1834 314,60,450. 1834 20,41,783 19,14,051 1835 311,53,567 1835 21,21,246 18,98,381 1836 295,69,089 1836 20,87,127 18,61,483 1837 324,72,663 1837 22,45,300 20,76,367 1838 315,67,386 1838 17,92,189 17,27,566 1839 335,66,699 1839 22.64,346 21,23.602 1840 326,00,170 1840 21,88,897. 20,22,382 1841 323,03,013 1841 23,25,823 21,10,208 1842 329,75,129 1842 23,10,960 20,73,560 1843 352,97,108 1843 22,70,961. 20,50,678 (20. ApO 24 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. given above, was, in round numbers, 257,83,000 ; in the last 12 years, 255,01,000, or a dimi- nution of 2,82,000 ; so much for improvement and an augmented revenue from the waste lands ! In Cuddapah the results have been still more unfavourable. The total land revenue received from that district during the first 12 years of the period indicated was, in round numbers, 236,71,000 ; in the last 12 years, 230,68,000, or a diminished amount of six lakhs. View the ryotwar in any way we please, either in regard to its principles or to its fiscal results, I can discover nothing to recommend it but the statements of Sir T. Munro ; 1 cannot discover any of those beneficial results which he expected would flow from its adoption, but, on the contrary, much evil, and not the least, the destruction of the village 23d May 1827. constitutions ; but the Court of Directors seem to think that it has been successful in Coimbatore. ' As we entertain a high opinion,' the Court say, in a revenue despatch to the Bombay Government, ' of the ryotwar settlement which has been successfully introduced into the Province of Coimbatore, we desire that you will obtain from the Government of Fort St. George information respecting the nature and principles of that settlement, with the view of introducing similar arrangements in all practicable cases into the provinces under your Presidency.' Even in Coimbatore it would be seen from the marginal statement,* that there has been retrogression, not improvement, in the land revenue. The aggregate . revenue for the first 12 years was, iZs. 267,96,000 ; for the last 12 years, iJjs. 241,81,000, or a diminished amount of revenue in the latter period of 26 lakhs of rupees. The advocates of ryotwar can hardly, therefore, I think, ground their predilections in favour of the system on the score of its tendency to augment and improve the revenue when such have been the results in the most favoured districts; and, as regards fluctuations, I find that even in Coimbatore the revenue fell in one year nearly six lakhs of rupees ; namely, from JRs. 20,97,000, which it was in 1835, to Rs, 15,11,000, the amount of the land revenue of 1836." And again, " Let us look now to the revenue of those districts where there has been little or no ryotwar, Tanjore, for instance, which has been under the wolungoo or village settlement of Mr. Cotton. " In the marginf is exhibited the land revenue collections of this district in each year. The total amount for the first 12 years was Rs. 395,43,524, while for the last 12 years it was Rs. 413,76,385, or an increased receipt of upwards of 18 lakhs in the latter period. So far, therefore, as improved revenue is a consideration, the comparison, it must be confessed, is in favour of the village settlement. " It may be said that, although the revenue has not improved under ryotwar, the circum- stances of the ryots have. 1 have always been led to suppose that improvement in the revenue went hand in hand with improvement in the circumstances of the ryots, but here we find increase of substance in the cultivating community coupled with diminished revenue. If the ryots of Bellary and Cuddapah had really improved in their circumstances, how could the great fluctuations which it has been shown have occurred in the annual revenue, take place ? Whence the necessity of the large advances of tuccavy, which are now annually made in those districts? These are fair deductions from general principles. There is, how- ever, more positive testimony as to the real state of some of the districts. In Salem, where the ryotwar was first introduced, we find the collector stating in 1833, that the ryots were so poor as to be living from hand to mouth. We find the collector of Trichinopoly, in 1831, stating, that in a district so long under Company's management as Trinchinopoly, with a very extensive market in the neighbourhood, it would have been natural to suppose that a large portion of the soil would bounder tillage, but that the reverse was the fact, and that of the dry lands in three out of the four dry talooks, not more than one acre in 10 was culti- vated. We find even Mr. SuUivan, on quitting Coimbatore, in his report of the 20th January 1830, Co.'s Ri. Co.'s lis. • 1820 - - 21,57,920 1832 - - 20,87,804 1821 - - 21,47,050 1833 - - 19,35,367 1822 - - 22,31,743 1834 - - 20,64,073 1823 - - 21,63,482 1836 - - 20,97,729 1824 - - 22,65,367 1836 - - 16,11,803 1825 - . 22,98,896 1837 - - 20,10,742 1826 - . 23,12,456 1838 - - 20,08,480 1827 - . 23,03,096 1839 - - 19,79,928 1828 - - 22,76,129 1840 - - 20,28,629 1829 - - 22,56,841 1841 - - 21,18,769 1830 - - 22,46,761 1842 - - 21,62,763 1831 - - 21,36,6U2 1843 - - 21,86,672 Go.'i Rs. Co.'s Ss. tl820 - - 29,22,193 1832 - - 37,21,950 1821 - - 30,26,436 1833 - - 36,43,032 1822 - - 33,09,593 1834 - - 34,39,633 1823 - - 38,80,406 1836 - - 32,64,176 1824 - - 49,27,489 1836 - - 33,81,321 1825 - - 83,67,668 1837 - - 36,10,303 1826 - ■ - 27,64,922 1838 - - 35,88,763 1827 - - 23,48,588 1839 - - 36,66,447 1828 - - 33,42,204 1840 - - 33,74,098 1829 - - 32,15,294, 1841 - - 28,94,782 1830 - - - 32,40,773 1842 - - 36,36,942 1831 - - 31,97,9S8 1843 - - - 34,94,934 COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERR1TOHIES. 25 1830, stating, that at the time of the survey, a tract of country which yilded an annual . j- 4 ij revenue of nearly a lakh of rupees, was then (when he wrote) in the possession of elephants. •*PP*'""'^» A. B. C. " The only province which may, perhaps, be taken as the most successful application of the . rvotwar settlement, and of field assessments, is Travancore. The land-tax is there fixed, and ^^^^"J^ °^ Colonel •uj Uiiu -J ,«.« • ^"' ,.", John Mnnro on the js based upon a revenue survey ; but a fresh survey is made every 10 or 12 years, in which renewal of the alterations are inserted according to the lands brought into cultivation, or those thrown up. Charter in 1832. The periodical surveys are stated to have been the established habit of the native government. The original survey comprehended the whole country, waste and cultivated. The occasional serveys included the cultivated lands only. Every field, with its rent, was inserted in the survey, with its proprietor, and it was entirely a ryotwar settlement. The mode of deter- mining the field assessment seems to have been, to fix it at certain ratios of produce to the quantity of seeds sowabie, which were determined by the quality of the soil. " The partial success, however, of the ryotwar system in Travancore may be accounted for ; it has existed from ancient times, and is the established usage of the province ; the land assessment is extremely low ; the district has many valuable productions, as pepper, betel, cardamums and teak wood, and I believe the real cause of its success is the revision of the survey, which takes place every 10 or 12 years, in direct opposition to Sir T. Munro's principle of declaring the survey assessment permanent. But even in Travancore it did not afford that protection to the ryot which is stated to be one of its chief advantages." On which your Petitioners beg to remark, that Travancore is not a collectorate under the Company, but a tributary state, having a maharajali, and its own government, to which an English Resident is attached. 29. That having thus explained the operationsof the ryotwar, your Petitioners proceed to Zamindary. the zamindary system, which still obtains to a great extent in the three districts of Ganjam, Vizagapatam, and Masulipatam, and in some few parts of the 17 ryotwar collectoi-ates, where it places the cultivators in a condition not materially better than the ryotwar. A few of these zamindaries existed prior to the occupation of the districts by the British ; but the larger part are of more recent creation, in which their possessors occupy the position of fanners of the revenue; of which they are to pay a sum nominally estimated at 35 per cent, to the Government, take 15 percent, as their own share, and leave the remaining 50 per cent, to the cultivator ; the estimated 35 per cent, is, however, fixed at a certain permanent sum, the amount of which can never be varied by either the Government or the zamindar ; it must be paid in money, without remission of any kind, to the zamindar for bad seasons, and without any demand upon him for an increase in the cultivation ; the cultivators, on the other hand, are to pay the zamindar in kind, and he is to grant them the same remissions which are granted to the ryots of the Government. 30. That the half share of produce due to the zamindar is subject to no charges for culti- vation, the whole of which fall upon the cultivator, who has likewise to pay durbary and other expenses, best explained by the following statement, adapted to the collectorate of Masuhpatam, and extracted from a Report by Mr. Russell, the collector of the district, dated the 20th March 1819, and to be found in the Appendix to the Report from the Select Committee, in the year 1832 : " A ryot who has two ploughs will cultivateone cutty of mettah, or dry land ; and that ex- tent of ordinary soil in a favourable year will produce 4 p. 10 t. of jonnaloo, and other grains and pulse. " Value of 4 p. 10 t. at 22 Madras rupees perpooty, which is a high com- putation, since it is reckoning the whole produce at the same rate as ionnaloo* .._-.----- jc Deduct Circar share Deduct durbary charges on 4 pootties 10 tooms, at 2 Madras rupees per pootty M. Ditto Nuzzer cuttoy, &c., at 3 Madras rupees per cent. - Batta to Mahasooldars, Anchanadars, &c., at 16 per cent. Rs. 9 - 1 - 8 8 - Remains to the Ryot ------ " Deduct charges of cultivation :— Value of 2 J tooms of seed grain _ - - M. Rs. 3 - - Subsistence to two slaves for six months, at 1 seer of jonnaloo per diem - - - - - - " " -10 12- Two cumbalies - - - - - * " --1-- Charges incidental to the replacing of cattle, one year with another - - - - - " " " ~ -6-- Wear and tear of ploughs, &c. - - - - - --8- Balance in .favour of the Ryot • M. Rs. M. Rs. a. P- 98 - - 49 8 — 18 8 _ 31 - 21 4 9 12 - In (20. App.) This is the average price of jonnaloo. G 26 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. " In paddy lands two ploughs are not equal to the culture of more than lOj veesums, and 8 pootties are a good crop for that extent of land in a favourable season, ^j^^ ^ " Crop 8 pootties, value at 20 Madras rupees per pootty - - - Deduct Circar portion ------- Ryot's share - - - Deduct durbary charges, at 1 J rupee per pootty Nuzzar cuttoy, &c., at 3 percent. Mahasooldars, &c., charges, at 16 per cent. - Total deductions M.Rs 12 - - 2 6 6 12 12 6 Remains to the Ryot . - - . " Deduct charges of cultivation : — Four tooms of seed grain, at 20 Madras rupeesperpootty, M.Rs. 4 Subsistence of two slaves for six months, at 2 seers of paddy each per diem, 18 ts. value thereof, at 20 Madras rupees per pootty ---- -..--18 Two cambalifis - - -----l One hundred and twenty-seven planters, at the average rate of 30 men for every toom sown - - - - --10 Charges incidental to tlie replacing of buffaloes,* one year with another ----------8 Wear and tear of ploughs, &c. ------ l Remains to the Ryot M. Rs. 160 - - 80 - - 80 - - 27 3 - 52 12 - 42 8 - 10 5 " 34. As the fees which the ryot receives at the threshing-floor are given to bis slaves, and constitute their means of support during a part of the year, I have calculated their subsistence for six months only, and for the same reason I have omitted to include those items among the receipts of the ryot. " 35. The principles by which I have been guided in estimating the charges incidental to cultivation were not dictated by any speculative opinions of my own, but were deduced from a careful examination of original accounts, obtained from various sources, where I have no reason to suspect deceit, because there could be no motive for deceiving me. It may, how- ever, be satisfactory to inquire how far the results regarding the charges for bullocks, &c., may tally with others prepared according to the plan observed in Mr. Colebrook's Hus- bandry of Bengal. That gentleman calculates interest at two per cent, per mensem on the money laid out in the purchase of cattle and ploughs, and considers that allowance to cover the expense of replacing casualties. " 36. In the foregoing accounts I have reckoned the ryot to have two ploughs and four oxen in a dry-grain village, or four buffaloes in one where paddy is cultivated. " Mettah Land. " The price of a bullock, at a low computation, must be taken at 12 Madras rupees, and of a plough and other implements of husbandry at 1 Madras rupee 1 anna. M.Rs. a. p. " Four bullocks, therefore, must be considered to cost the Ryot - 48 - - And two ploughs, &c. - - - - - - - -22- The value of his stock then is - - M.Rs. 50 2 - " And the interest on that sum for 12 months, at the rate of two per cent, per mensem, Madras rupees 12, or nearly double my former calculation. " Low Land. " Eight Madras rupees is the usual price for a ploughing buffalo. " Four, therefore, must be reckoned to cost And two ploughs, &c. - - _ . Total amount of stock M.Rs. a. p. - 32 - - 2 — — M.Rs. 34 - - " Interest on 34 Madras rupees, at two per cent, per month, 8 rupees 3 annas, or 13 annas less than my estimate. "If it be admitted that those statements are correct, it follows that the mere profits of husbandry must, under this system, be inadequate to the maintenance of the ryot's family. " 37. We will suppose, for example, that the family consists of five persons, which I take it * Buffaloes are much shorter-lived animala than bullooEa, and in the end more expensive: but they do theirvyoikbetterin this sort of cultivation, tr > j ■ COMMITTEE OV THE GOVBRNMKNT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 27 it is the usual average, and that it is compose'd of the ryot, his wife, two children, and a Appendix, A. B.C. female relation. .' " The daily consuniption of grain cannot be estimated at less than four seers. One pootty and a half, therefore, must be allowed for the expenditure of the year ; and, as that quantity of jonnaloo even will cost 33 Madras rupees, it is obvious that the mere article of grain alone will amount to more than the surplus which now remains to the ryot. Such is, in fact, the real result of the system. The plough itself affords little towards his support, and were it not that it gives him the valuable right of pasture for his cattle and ground for his pumpkins, he could not subsist. A single she buffalo will yield him eight rupees per annum in ghee alone, and the profit he derives from this source, added to the labours of his women, enable him to procure the necessaries of life ; but even these aids will not always afford him the means of subsistence, and for two or three months of the year the fruit from his pumpkin garden, mixed up with buttermilk or a very small proportion of meat, is the daily diet of his family. " 38. Under these circumstances,' the indigence we find so prevalent among the agricul- tural classes, and the distrust which exists between them and the zamindars, cannot be a matter of surprise. Deprived as they are of the fair return of their industry, it cannot be expected that they will omit to avail themselves of any opportunity that may offer to pilfer the grain while it remains on the ground, and hence arises the necessity for the precautions which the landlord is obliged to resort to. " 39. It may perhaps be said that the introduction of village rents would improve the condition of the peasantry, by relieving them from the ruinous expenses attending the present system of espionage; and so, in fact, it would, if the zamindars would found their assess- ments on a moderate scale, and the distrust which has for ages existed between them and the ryots could be converted into mutual confidence: but as long as the demand of the circar shall remain at its present standard, as long as the ' durbary kurchooloo' shall be considered to be the lawful branch of revenue ; as long as the collections actually realised under the several heads which have heretofore been customary shall be looked upon as the proper basis for future assessment; as long, in fact, as the demand of the landlord shall absorb the just profits of the cultivator, so long will it be in vain to expect any confidence between them ; so long will the demand of the year depend on the actual harvest, and ail engagements continue nominal ; and so long will there be a positive necessity for the zamin- dar to guard against the clandestine removal of his crops. " 40. At present all engagements are nugatory. The rents are so high that it is impos- sible to realise them, unless the crops prove more than usually favourable. The annual demand of the zamindar, therefore, still fluctuates with the seasons ; and as he knows the ryots will do all in their power to deceive him, he is obliged to ascertain their actual resouices by means of appraisers, and the settlement is in effect concluded in the same way as if no agreements existed." 31. That without dilating upon the vexations innumerable occurring under the zamindaiy system, complaints of which are referable to the collector, your Petitioners will merely point out that by it the ryot's nominal share of one-half the produce is actually reduced to one-fifth of the half on dry lands, and to one-eighth on wet or paddy lands ; yielding as the annual return for his agricultural labour twenty rupees and one anna, an amount quite insufficient to procure grain for himself and family, putting aside clothing, salt and vegetables, and the expenses of religious ceremonies at births, marriages and deaths; all which he has to procure as best he may from the milk of his herd cows or buffaloes, and the labours of the female members of his family. 32. That although the Minute of the Board of Revenue, to which your Pttitioners have referred, states that " the situation of a zamindary ryot is considered by many as superior to most of those placed immediately under collectors and their native officers," it is still more miserable at this time than it was at the date of Mr. Russell's Report; and as the zamindar- ships are hereditary, and cannot lapse to Government except for failure in the payment of the peishcush, or permanent rent, your Petitioners represent the imperative necessity for definite and effective regulations to^ restrain the zamindar from the continual practice of oppressive extortions, in taking away the best lands from their original holders, for thepur- pose of bestowing them on his own relations and favourites, compelhng the ryots to cultivate such lands without payment, and obliging the ryots to buy the zamindar's grain at prices far above the market value ; as likewise for granting greater facilities to the ryots for pre- ferring their grievances, and for the due and early inquiry into, and settlement of, them by the collectors, instead of their being, as they are now, obliged to enter into an expensive litigation in the civil courts of the Government, notwithstanding the existing regulations that summary justice shall be afforded them by the collector. 33. That as the ryotwar system prevailing in seventeen-twentieths of the whole Presi- Village system, dency is always the substitution for the zamindary when lapses occur by the failure of peishcush, your Petitioners earnestly pray that, as there can be no obstacle either of here- ditary right, vested interests, or any other, to prevent its summary and total abolition, the ancient system which obtained in the country prior to its subjugation by the Mahomedans, maybe a<^ain reverted to ; viz. the village system, or the .collection of the revenue from the land by rneans of villages, instead of individuals, without the interference of zamindars or middlemen on one hand, and free from the harassing oppressions of Government servants - on the other. This system your Petitioners beg to state has been tried by the Madras Government in what was called the Triennial and Decennial Settlements, alluded to m the (20. App.) ^°'"^'' 28 APPENDIX TO Minutes of evidence taken before select Appendix, A. B. C. fo™er part of this Petition, regarding which' the Minute of the Board of Revenue before- mentioned states : — # * * * * " 280. It differed from the ryotwar chiefly in the assessment being fixed on the entfre aggregate lands of the village, not on each distinct and separate field ; in its being concluded with all the ryots collectively, not with each individually ; and in its giving up to the ryots not only the revenue to be derived from the arable lands, but that also to be obtained by after-exertion from the waste also. In fact, in leaving, in consideration of a contract to pay a given sum as | ublic revenue, the entire internal administration of the affairs to the village community. " 281. The object in view was to ada[it the revenue administration to the ancient insti- tutions and ancient usages of the country, to which the Hindoos are proverbially attached; to suit the system to the people, and not to attempt to bend the people to the system. Mr. Place, quoted by some mistake in England us an advocate for ryotwar, has well described the village settlement, and it is curious to observe the accuracy with which be pre- dicted the consequences resulting from an attempt at the introduction of ryotwar in the Tamil country. " ' It would,' says he, ' be superfluous, impracticable and impolitic, to ascertain with greater precision than has already been done, the measured extent of each share, or of each man's proportion of meerassay; because, in the first place, it would strengthen those sus- picions which have arisen, and in the next, it could only be done by personal survey, and the most unremitting attention, which I think hardly any one man can give to the comple- tion of such a work, independent of innumerable variations that would take place while it was in hand ; and it would be unwise, because not only it will be ever the most beneficial mode to let the lands of every village jointly to the inhabitants at large, both with a view to security and to good cultivation ; but to let them separately, would tend to create divisions and dissensions, to the undoubted embarrassment of themselves as well as of the public. No difficulty occurs in fixing the value of all ihe lands together of one village, but it would be nearly impossible to assign to every small allotment its portion so exactly, and with such due regard to fertility of soil and other circumstances, that some should not benefit and others suffer ; yet the latter would not receive the a.ssistance of the former in case of failure in their engagements. " ' At present every village considers itself a distinct society, and its general concerns the sole object of the inhabitants at large ; a practice, surely, which redounds as much to the public good as to theirs ; each having, in some way or other, the assistance of the rest. The labours of all yield the rent ; they enjoy the profit proportionate to the original interest, and the loss falls light. It consists exactly with the piinciples upon which the advantages are derived by a division of labour ; one man goes to market, whilst the rest attend to the cultivation and harvest ; each has his particular occupation assigned to him, and insensibly labours for all ; but if each had these several duties to attend to, it is obvious that all the inhabitunts must be absent together at those times that are most critical, both to them and to the State, and that many must want those abilities necessary to the performance of the various employments that would arise. ^ tF "Jr * -fF " ' On the whole, I cannot but consider that any reform tending to do away the union, or, if I may be allowed the expression, the unity of the inhabitants, and to fix each exclusively to his property, will be attended with danger.' " " 285. It was apprehended by some, that where the collectivebody of the ryots would not consent to the assessment fixed by the collector on the village, and it became, consequently, requisite to enter into a settlement with tlie head only of the village, he would exercise over the inferior ryots all sorts of oppression, but it was conceived that his petty tyrannies could never equal those to which the ryot was liable from the more powerful tebsildar. On the contrary, it was thought that his more intimate acquaintance with the affairs of the village, his superior knowledge of all its locahties, his fellow feeling for his unfortunate brethren, the assistance and forbearance which he knew when and how to afford to each ryot much better than the tebsildar, the interest he possessed in supporting his popularity among the village community by a system of conciliation, and, above all, his entire dependence on the ryots themselves to enable him to fulfil his engagements, would render him a much more acceptable superior to them than the collector's severe and authoritative deputy, connected with the ryot by no ties of dependence, friendship or fellow feeling, and dependent for all his prospects in life chiefly on the state of his treasury and the precision of his collections." 34. That the objection referred to in the above quotation from the Board of Revenue's Minute is, as far as your Petitioners are acquainted, the principal, if not the only one, that has been urged against the village system ; and the Court of Directors have adopted it in their Revenue Letter to the Government of this Presidency, dated the 12th December 1821 ; when alluding to the propriety of assessing the lands of a village in common, they observe, it *' appears, according to all the information before us, liable to this conclusive objection, that the principal ryots are enabled in villages of this description to relieve them- selves at the expense of the inferior;" but your Petitioners submit that, with only common and proper regulations for the guidance of the managing ryots, equal justice could be easily distributed; there is no record that the contrary has at any time been the case, under the short operation of the decennial settlement ; while there is abundant testimony to the bene- ficial effects it is capable of producing towards the entire village community. As, for instance, the Honourable Mountstnart Elphinstonc, when Governor of Bombay, recorded his COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 29 his opinion that the system was less objectionable, " because there are many ties on the Appendix A. B. C. potail (or head ryot of the village), to prevent his oppressing the people with whom he has .. been brought up, and among whom he is to pass the remainder of his days. It is not by any means so unpopular among the people. It gives to the person whose business it is to direct and encourage the labours of the ryots, an interest in their success ; it strengthens the influence of the potail, so much required in revenue, pohce, and in settling disputes, and so likely to be undermined by the introduction of an officer of Government." Mr. Martin, Resident and Chief Commissioner at Delhi, speaking of the same class of persons in the Upper Provinces of Bengal, — letter to Government, 31st May 1831,— observes, " Indepen- dently of the numerous ties by which they are connected with several subdivisions of the village, and which constrain them to the observance of an equitable regard to the' right and interests of all, the process of internal distribution among themselves of the share which each of the subordinate proprietors shall contribute to the payment of the Government demand, regulated as that process is by principles and usages which are familiar to all, constitutes, in my opinion, a suflncient safeguard against the undue preponderance of sinister interest in the engaging partner, and produces that harmonious regulation of the village economy, which results from the free co-operation of its members in the settlement of their affairs, and which appears to be no less conservative of the moral interests of the community, than conducive to an equitable assessment upon each proprietor, according to the extent and value of his share in the aggregate demand of Government." 35. That your Petitioners will adduce further testimonies to the excellence of the village system, when preserved in i's inteo;rity. The first being that of the influential personage who has been the main introducer of the ryotwar system : Sir Thomas Munro, in his Report of the 15th May 1806, states, " Every village is a little republic, with the potail at the head of it, and India a mass of such republics. The inhabitants, during war, look chiefly to their own potail. They give themselves no trouble about the breaking up and division of kingdoms ; while the village remains entire, they care not to what power it is transferred. Wherever it goes, the internal management remains unaltered. The potail is still the col- lector, magistrate and head farmer." And the second is derived from the authority of the late Lord Metcalfe, — " The village communities are little repubhcs, having everything they want within themselves, and almost independent of any foreign relations. They seem to last where nothing else lasts. Dynasty after dynasty tumbles down, revolution succeeds revolution, Hindu, Pattan, Mogul, Mahratta, Sikh, English, all are masters in turn; but the village communities remain the same. This union of village communities, each one forming a separate state in itself, has, I conceive, contributed more than any other to the preserva- tion of the people of India throughout all the revolutions and changes which they have suffered, and is in a high degree conducive to theirJiappiness and to the enjoyment of a great portion of freedom and independence." 36. That both the Madras Government and the Board of Revenue, who witnessed the effects of the decennial assessment, were highly satisfied with the result, and recom- mended its general adoption; combating tlie objections against its introduction in the following language, copied from the Mirmte on which your Petitioners have already drawn so largely : — " 287. The judgment which has been pronounced in England against the villai;;e system, of which the outline is given above, is founded on a very partial and unfavourable view of its results; for it does not appear that the autiiorities at home had, at the time when that judgment was passed, any information before them respecting any other portion of it than its conimencement, the triennial settlement. It is hoped that the reports which have since been forwarded, in elucidation of the effects of the decennial settlement, will enable them to form a more correct opinion of the tendency of the village system. " 288. Nothinff, however, that has been urged at home, appears to contravene any of the fundamental principles of the village system. The whole of the evils arising from the t iennial settlement, or which have been attributed to it, may distinctly be traced, not to its intrinsic principles, but to its over assessment, which it must be allowed has been justly condemned ; for it was nearly every where a mere rack-rent. Under the pressing orders received from England, about that" period, requiring from this country a surplus revenue of a million sterling, accompanied by a threat from the honourable Court of Directors to take the revision of the establishments into their own hands, not only was the most rigid eco- nomy enforced in all departments of the State, but the triennial settleaient of each village where the ryotwar system had existed was too generally determined with ' reference to the payments under the survey rent,' in other words, with reference to the collections under the ryotwar system, when all was taken from the people that they were able to pay.* The over assessment during this period, therefore, arose from the triennial settlement havmg m a great degree been founded upon the fallacious data of the ryotwar collections ; and if any mfer- ence is to be drawn fiom this citcumstance, it is one against the ryotwar, not against the village settlement. " 289 This practical error, with some others of a similar nature which had inadvertently crept into the triennial settlement, and are attributable entirely to a deviation from us pnn- cinles was in eeneral avoided in the decennial settlement, which, as embracmg a longer •^ ' ° period * See Report of the Board of Revenue to Goveriunent, dated 25 April 1808. (20, App.) ^ 30 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B, C. Molurplia. period and a greater vicissitude of seasons, is a standard by which a fair judgment may be formed of the result of the village system. # # * * * " 290. That although this system has not been equally successful in every district, yet even where (as in Bellary) it has been the least so, the collectors are unanimous in opinion that it has most materially improved the condition of the great agricultural population of the country, and that it is the great body of the ryots, and not the mere parties with, whom the settlement was concluded, who have chiefly benefited by the village settlement. The ryotwar teerwas have nearly everywhere been greatly reduced ; and instead of the head ryots oppressing their inferiors, most of the collectors have been obliged to prop their weakened authority by that of their tehsildars. This, without any material exception, is the universal language' of all their reports, and it is a result which may be confidently offered as conclusive evidence that the system has generally answered the expectations of those by whom it was introduced ; but where the settlement has been best conducted, as in Cuddapah and the northern division of Arcot, a picture of prosperity is drawn, of which the parallel may in vain be ' sought for throughout the revenue records of this Presidency.' " 37. That, notwithstanding this decided testimony to the superiority of the village system as regards the prosperity both of the revenue and the cultivator, the Court of Directors ordered the village system to be superseded by the ryotwar, as before stated by your Peti- tioners ; and, with a professed view to remedy the evils attending it, issued orders which declared that the labour of the ryot should be henceforward free from compulsion ; that private property in lands on this side of the Peninsula should be acknowledged, and that the bf er-assessment should be reduced ; but, however well intentioned those orders may have been, ryotwar is still the curse of the country, the over-assessment continues unaltered, the ryots are compelled to cultivate at the pleasure of the tehsildar, and the acknowledged right of private property in no way prevents the oppression of the owner, nor his gradual . and sure depauperation. That while your Petitioners apply to your Right honourable House for a return to their old revenue system on the broad ground of justice to the cultivators, they beg to point out a few particulars in which the change will be advantageous to the Government : — 1. It will be relieved from the loss and corruption entailed by the ryotwar system ; 2. It is secured from all loss arising from unequal land tax ; 3. The rent will not depend upon the correct assessment of the cultivation ; and, 4. The charge of collection will be considerably decreased ; yet even were there no immediate advantages likely to accrue to the Government, your Petitioners would represent that a lighter and more reasonable assess- ment, coupled with the removal of the vexations and oppressions accompanying the present mode of collection, would ensure a much larger cultivation, and thereby the revenues of the State would be improved ; and that the people of India are therefore entitled to seek and to obtain from the paramount authority of the Imperial Parliament the necessary and equitable redress of the weighty and multiform grievances brought upon them by the introduction of the system under which they groan ; and their claims to the mode of redress they have pointed out are rendered still stronger by the fact, that a settlement by villages nearly resembhng that which your Petitioners seek for themselves, is actually now in full operation in the north-western provinces under the Bengal Presidency, where the leases are held on a term of thirty years' duration. 38. That the next grievance regarding which your Petitioners appeal to your Right honourable House, is the moturpha, or tax upon trades and occupation, embracing weavers, carpenters, all workers in metals, all salesmen, whether possessing shops which are also taxed separately, or vending by the road-side, &c. &c., some paying impost on their tools, others for permission to sell, extending to the most trifling articles of trade and the cheapest tools the mechanic can employ, the cost of which is frequently exceeded six times over by the moturpha under which the use of ihem is permitted. 39. That this tax, although of Mahomedan origin, as might well be supposed only from its oppressiveness, without ihe proof that it was so, contained in the Arabic word " moturpha," was never universal at this Presidency, and was declared to be general only 20 years ago by Reg. V. of 1832, whereby it was enacted, that " the not having been actually charged with the said tax for any length of time, or residing at a place where it has not been actually levied, shall not entitle any person to exemption from it ; " while such is the extreme irregularity of its collection, that whereas in the district of '1 anjore it does not exceed the average of a farthing per head, in Kurmool, where the land assessment is much greater than in Tanjore, it amounts to no less than 9 s. 4d. per head ; while in the district of Canara it has been remitted since the year 1842, and in that of Madura it remains unenforced to this day. 40. That the last place to which it has been extended is a part of the district of Ching- leput, and its introduction there in 1843 was attended with a serious disturbance; so great is the aversion of the people to this obnoxious impost, which compels them to go to the col- lector for their puUahs, and often to be away from their occupation three or four days at a time, costing them as much for their own expenses, and frequently more than the amount of the tax they have to pay ; in many parts the poor are taxed, while the more affluent are exempted ; and in all instances it falls more heavily upon the indigent than upon the wealthy ; while the discretionary power under which it is collected, affords a wide field for the per- petual practice of inquisitorial visits, extortion and oppression, as suits the pleasure or the cupidity COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 31 cupidity of the irresponsible collectors, with whom it is no unusual thing to resort to impri- Appendix A B < sonment and fetters, in order to compel their exactions. That the whole sum raised by this " impost is but little above 100,000 Z. sterling ; and, as it has already been entirely abolished at Bengal and Bombay, your Petitioners request that the same advantages may be extended to Madras. 41. That closely allied to the moturpha impost is the grievance of small farms and Small Fanna and licenses, intended for raising what is called " extra revenue," and which consists in the annual Licenses, leasing out to individuals of certain privileges, such as the right of measuring grain and other articles; the right to the sweepings of the goldsmiths' workshops; the right of dying betel nut; of cutting jungle wood ; of grazing cattle ; of gathering wild fruit and wild honey ; of catching wild fowl ; of cutting grasses used in thatching, basket rushes and cow-dung; and innumerable other such rights of levying taxes from the poorest of the poor, who feel them to be a most intolerable burthen, not only in the amount, but in the vexations attend- ant oh the collection of the money. Your Petitioners therefore pray that these grinding imposts, the moturpha and the small farms and the licenses may no longer be permitted to oppress the suffering people of this Presidency. 42. That the next grievance to which your Petitioners would draw the attention of your Salt Monopoly. Right honourable House is the salt monopoly, a source of revenue introduced into this Presidency by the East India Company ; the manufacture of this article under the former governments having been subjected to no other restriction than that of a trifling duty ; but under the British Government the right of manufacture began to be farmed or rented by individuals upon such terms as enabled the manufacturers to sell it on the coast at the price of 10 pagodas or Ms. 35 per garce of 3,200 measures; and up to the year 1805, the revenue derived from that source did not exceed 80,000 pagodas, or i?s. 280,000 per annum. 43. That in the year 1806, the Government established an agency for the control and management of the salt department, the first consequence of which was the doublino- of the price of the article, which was then fixed at Ms. 70 the garce, when the annual average con»* sumption for the space of three years amounted to 31,685 garces, at the end of which time, in the year 1809, the price was again raised from lis.lO to Rs. 105 the garce, being three times as much as it had been prior to the Government monopoly ; but as the enhanced price naturally decreased the consumption, the price in 1820 was again fixed at Rs. 70 ; but after a course of eight years, the price was again fixed at Rs. 106, which was still further raised fo 180 in the year 1844 ; but in the same year it was reduced to Rs. 120, at which price it has ever since continued ; that this being the wholesale price, it is of course sold to the retail dealer at an advance, who, as necessarily, adds his profit, to be paid by the consumer ; and while the poorer classes are able to purchase a much smaller quantity than they could consume when living nearest to the salt-pans, those who reside at a distance have to pay the expenses of the carriage, at the average rate of a rupee on each garce for every mile; so that it comes to them, according to the distance, 50, 100 and 200 per cent, dearer than at the coast ; and the consequence is, that either the people go without salt altogether, or substitute an unwholesome article obtained from common earth impregnated with saline par- ticles, which they manufacture at the risk of punishment, the procurement of salt other than that of the monopoly being prohibited under penalty of fine and corporal punishment, inflicted at the discretion of the collector, or his tehsildar. 44. That your Petitioners submit the great probability, amounting almost to a certainty, that the revenue derivable from this article might be obtained, if not even exceeded, were the monopoly reduced to the original price of Rs. 70 the garce, as may be intelligible from the calculations following. By the revenue accounts for this Presidency during the four years commencing with 1846-47, and ending 1849-50, printed by order of the Honourable the House of Commons in May]851, and which are the latest accessible to your Pelitioners, it appears that the annual average gross revenue is Rs. 46,41,868, the actual amount for the last year, 1849-50, being i?s. 46,45,946; and the sale price being ^s. 120 per garce, the quantity consumed will amount to not more than 38,716 garces, or enough to supply the wants of 6.882,844 individuals, 18 measures per annum being the average quantity consumed by each individual who can afford to purchase ; but the population of the 20 collectorates, including that of the city of Madras, amounted in 1850-51, as per Return of Census published by the Board of Revenue of Fort St. George, to 22,301,697 ; to which, if there be added the population of Mysore, Travancore, and the recently-acquired province of Coorg, which in the year 1839 was estimated at 3,419,704, there will be found a total of 25,721,451, out of which there may be calculated that 20,000,000 are, or would be if they could procure it, consumers of salt, allowing 5,721,451 for infants under five years of age who do not use the article; and these 20,000,000 consuming, as they would do, on an average, 18 Madras measures per annum each, would require a supply of 112,500 garces, or nearly thrice the quantity of the present actual consumption, without including the salt required for the cattle, which is a large quantity, and would be increased materially by the diminution of the price. 45. That, according to the published accounts above quoted, it will be found that the cost and charges of the manufacture is something under Rs. 21 the garce; and, consequently, if from these 38,716 garces, sold for iis. 46,45,926, there be deducted the actual cost and charges of ^s. 8,12,614, the net profit to the Government will be i?s. 33,33,312 ; but the sale price of J 12,500 garces, at Rs. 70 per garce, is Rs. 78,75,000 ; and deducting for cost and (20. A PP.) ^^'^'■e^s 32 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appepilix, A. B. C charges the sum of Rs. 25 the garce, amounting to 2,812,600, the net profit to Government will be Rs. 50,62,500, or Ms. 16,29,188 in excess of the revenue now obtained at the sale price of Rs. 120 per garce ; that the excess of revenue just quoted is equal to 23,274 garces, sufficient for 4,137,600 people j so that should the consumers be no more than 16,000,000, instead of 20,000,000, the present net revenue will suffer no deterioration, and the Govern- ment will still have a grain upon the article of more than 180 per cent.; your Petitioners therefore pray your Right honourable House that, as the lowering of the price will do no harm to the Government, while it will relieve so large a portion of the people from a most oppressive and injurious tax, affecting not only their comfort, but their health likewise, that the Government charge for the article may return to the rate first introduced by the monopoly. Abkary. Post Office. 9f abaratta Dufter. 46. That another serious evil, of which your Petitioners have to complain, is the increased and increasing consumption of spirituous liquors at this Presidency, owing, as your Peti- tioners are compelled to state, to the encouragement given to their use by the local govern- ment, and from which, in the capital alone, it now derives a gross revenue of 60,000/. per annum. The liquor generally known by the name of arrack is made at the government distilleries, and thence supplied to licensed venders to the number of a 150, by whom it is sold, in small quantities, in every direction. In the interior, the manufacture and sale of the article is committed to contractors or farmers, who compete for the privilege annually at public auction, the sales realizing, on the average, 250,000 /. a year ; and as the sale price is extremely low, the quantity consumed and the number of consumers is immense. Drun- kenness, with all its miseries, is consequently common throughout the land, and its baneful effects are a full counterpoise for whatever real or imaginary benefits have been derived by the lower orders of India from her connexion with Great Britain. Your Petitioners have not memorialized Government in order to obtain the repression of this evil, not only because memorials to the Bombay authorities have totally failed, but because the amount of revenue thus derived from native demoralization is too great for your Petitioners to indulge the slightest hope of procuring even a diminution of so profitable a vice, forbidden by Hindu and Mahomedan law, and comparatively unknown before the ascendancy of- European dominion. But your Petitioners venture to indulge an expectation, that your Right honour- able House will view the pestilence in its true light, and provide the remedy which so wide- spread and ruinous a calamity imperatively demands. 47. That your Petitioners will now advert to some other subjects requiring redress, such as the Post-office, which, besides being very tardily and slovenly conducted, acts, by the exorbitance of its charges, like a dead weight upon commercial correspondence and the cir- culation of knowledge ; and which weight would be considerably lightened, were the con- veyance of official papers, which form three-fourths of the mail conveyed by tappal. placed to the expense of the Government : this would make this Post-office revenue four times the amount now credited, and of course would permit of a corresponding reduction in the cost for carriage : a letter or package which now is taxed at 1 s. might then reach its destination for the cost of 3 d., and still the returns of the department would more than cover the expenditure, even without an increase of correspondence, which, however, would certainly take place to a considerable extent, as a consequence of a diminution in the rates of postage. 48. That a necessary auxiliary to the increase of correspondence is a thorough reform in the management of the Post-office departments, beginning at the capital, and extending to the remotest boundaries of the Presidency, which, although containing an area of upwards of 140,000 square miles, has no more than 130 Post-offices, controlled by 30 postmasters, a number totally inadequate to the wants of the public, to meet which efficiently, your Pe- titioners suggest that there should be at least one or more officeis in every talook, according to its size, so that no inhabited part of the country should be more than 10 miles from a Post-office. At present, the arrangements for distributing the letters among the native population, even at the stations where the offices are situated, are most defective and in)perfect ; the agents employed are of an inferior description, who frequently defer the delivery for days, till the parties to whom the letters are addressed submit to some unau- thorized demand ; while, as regards places at a distance from the post stations, the evil is much greater; enormous delay, extending not unfrequently to weeks, is incurred, and a heavy charge besides ; while, after all, the delivery of letters is uncertain, and wrong parties are sometimes permitted tu obtain their possession. 49. That these combined circumstances, the paucity of offices and their inefficient super- vision, the delays, exactions and uncertainties, cause the Post-office to be greatly less trusted than it would otherwise be by the native public, who, in very many instances, have established dawk transits at their own expense, thereby depriving the State of a part of its income, to an extent necessarily unknown, but as necessarily of no trivial importance; and your Petitioners therefore request that there may be a thorough reform in this department, reaching to the whole of its branches; and that every paper or package passing through it shall be made subject to the same uniform rate of charge. 50. That another office, constituting useless expense to the Government, is that of the Mahratta Dufter, or native revenue establishment, by which all revenue accounts have to be translated from the Telugu, Canarese, Malayalum and Tamul languages, in which they are originally kept and furnished, into the Maharatta ; from which they are again rendered into English : COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 33 English : this plan has been pursued at this Presidency since the year 1824, and up to the Appendix, A. B. C. present year has cost little short o{ 90,000 /. ; the money being absolutely thrown away, besides increasing the amount of public business, together with a proportionate amount of oflicial perplexity and confusion. !tl. That your Petitioners now proceed to direct the attention of your Right honourable Irrigation. House to the Mari\mut department, by which is intended the construction and preservation of reservoirs and channels for the purposes of irrigation, upon wliich not merely the fertility of the soil, but the practicability of its cultivation is mainly dependent on the eastern side of India. Both the reservoirs and the channels are of the remotest antiquity, and were in former times extremely numerous ; but at the present period, not more than four-fifths of those still existing are kept in repair, while others have altogether disappeared, causing a decline in the agriculture of the Presidency, equally liiirtful to the ryot and the revenue; and this evil is occasioned partly from the unwillingness of the Government to disburse a sufficiency of funds, partly from what it does disburse being unsystematically applied, and partly because the execution of the works is entrusted chiefly to the tehsildar, to whom are committed the purchase of materials, the engagement of the labourers, and the payments due for each, he being held responsible both for the manner and time in which the work is completed ; and the powers of this officer being almost unlimited, as he posseses, with very little abatement, the authority of the collector, he is able to compel the supply of materials and labour below the market price, to diminish the quantity of that actually furnished by short measurement of the work performed, and to delay the settlement of accounts almost indefinitely at his pleasure. 62. That although an impost is annually levied upon the ryots for the repair of the reservoirs and channels, there being a distinct charge consolidated in the land assessment for the use of the water, and although the construction of new reservoirs, where they are needed for an increased cultivation, will always give a return fioui 50 to 60 per cent, on the capital laid out; yet, in the province of Tanjore, whose general fertility entitles it to be called the granary of the Madras Presidency, it appears, by the latest published report of Captain A. Cotton on that district, the annual expenditure for repairs and other purposes connected with irrigation amounts to no more than about 2 per cent, upon the gross pio- duce : and he remarks, " There are at this moment passing to the sea by the Colleroon at least 100 million of cubic yards of water per day, sufficient for a crop of paddy in 8,000 cawiiies ; in a good fresh, sufficient water for a crop on 30,000 cawnies run to waste daily. In a moderate season enough is lost to water, certainly at least a million cawnies, or a tract double the extent of Tanjore, which would provide grain for about 2J millions of people." And if such is the slender disbursement upon irrigation in the best watered province of the Presidency, it must be trifling indeed in those districts which are more neglected, and, as a natural consequence, contribute to the revenue in a far smaller proportion ; the results of this negligence being, that immense tracts of land lie everywhere uncultivated, simply for want of requisite irrigation, while numerous large rivers are hourly rolling their surplus waters into the ocean, along a coast extending from 800 to 1,000 miles along the eastern side of the peninsula, dooming reclaimable and virgin lands to sterility, and causing, in great part, the periodical famines, which, with their concomitant, the pestilence, sweep away the wretched inhabitants by myriads at each time of their dreadful visitation. " Had a hundredth part," observes Captain Cotton, " of the time, labour and money that has been lost by droughts, or, expended in trying to obviate the effects of scarcities, been expended in pro- viding against them, very much might have been effected ; it is undoubted, that in the worst year that ever occurred, enough water has been allowed to flow into the sea to have irrigated 10 times-as much grain as would have supplied the whole population." And the indiffer- ence of the Government on this head is the more remarkable, from its being a known fact, that proper irrig-ation is computed to increase fivefold the produce and the value of the land watered. 53. That closely connected with the irrigation of the country is the construction of roads. Roads, to enable the cultivator and the manufacturer to contribute to the wants of each other, and thereby increase the prosperity of the inhabitants in general, and in regard to which your Petitioners have the greatest causes for complaint, it being a melancholy fact that the sum expended for this purpose at the iSladras Presidency is scarcely above one-half per cent, on her revenue, in the North-west provinces it is two-and-a-half, and in Hengal more than one and three quarters ; while Bombay, with a far smaller revenue, and half the number of inhabitants, has more than 37,000/. expended upon her roads and canals, while Madras has only 30,000 /. 64. That the condition of the roads at Madras, however bad, is just what could be expected under such circumstances ; but as it is impossible for your Petitioners to get at official documents on this head, the Government having; declined complying with the request of the Association, and all public officers, civil and nnlitdry, bein£ prohibited to communicate official information, they will draw upon an article contributed to the " Calcutta Review, No XXXII for a few facts by way of elucidaiion. The number of principal or trunk roads as set down in the Return of public works, printed by order of the Honourable the House of Commons in 1S51. is only 11 ; but very few of these are finished, and not one of them is kept in a state of sufficient repair; the only road that is always in good order is that leading from Fort St. Gecrye to the head quarters of the artillery at St. Thomas s Mount, a distance of about eight miles; the longest road is that from Madras to Calcu ta, 900 miles estimated length, but it has never been completed, and although it is called the Great North Road, and is used by all Iravellers proceeding to the northern parts of the /on A \ T Presidencv (20. App.) a • ' 34 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. Prestdencj', yet even a few miles from Madras it ifs not distinguishable from paddy fields, and piece goods have to be brought on the heads of coolies from Nellore, 110 miles distant, and situated on this very road ; 50 miles farther it passes over a wide swamp, causing carts and travellers to skirt its edge in mud and water, as well as they can, during six months of the year; on another part of the same line, near Rajahmundry, a gentleman was lately four hours in travelling seven miles on horseback : parts of this road have been at various times repaired, but these portions have afterwards been totally neglected and allowed lo fall again into ruin; for the most part the line is unbridged, and in the places where bridges have been constructed, they have been neglected, till the approaches have been wholly cut away by the rains, leaving the bridges inaccessible, and consequently useless. From this road another branches off towards Hydrabad and Nagpore, but, though it is only 22 miles in length, the money expended upon it has been thrown away, and it is never in a fit slate for traffic; and such is the general condition of all the rest of the trunk roads, with the exception of that leading to Bangalore, which, and which alone, is practicable, and that only latterly for post carriages and horses, proceeding at the rate of four or five miles per hour. 55. That the country is in an equally desperate condition as regards district roads. The district of Cuddapah, measuring 13,000 square miles, has nothing that deserves the name of road ; there are tracks, impassable after a little rain, and everywhere carts, when used, carry half their proper load, and proceed by stages of half the usual length; while the trunk road from this district is so notoriously bad, that the Military Board use it as a trial-ground to test the powers of new gun carriages, which are pronounced safe if they pass over this severe ordeal. This district is one of the finest cotton-fields in South India, but has its prosperity impeded and kept down by the wretched state of its internal roads, and of its communica- tion with the coast, the natural outlet for its commerce. Other districts might be named only second to this in extent, and hardly inferior in capabilities, in which the internal com- munications are no better; and there are few districts in which country roads, as distin- guished from the chief trunk roads, have received any attention whatever, and to all but those few the description of Cuddapah is applicable; the principal exception being the collectorate of Salem, which, as it is a level country, without any large rivers, has, under Mr. Orr, received considerable improvement at a trifling expense of about 4,000 I., and the forced labour of the district ; but it is still without main routes of communication with the surrounding districts. 56. That the entire extent of road practicable for bullock carts scarcely exceeds 3,000 miles for the entire Presidency ; mostly without bridges, impracticable in wet weather, tedious and dangerous in the dry season ; not au individual talook possesses roads corre- spondent to the number of its population, and where there is the greatest improvement, as at Salem, it is of no benefit to the other parts of the country, and to them is all the same as if it had no existence. 57. That the unwillingness of the Company and the local government to expend money on the construction ,of roads requisite for the interchange of traffic from province to province, and from the interior to the shipping ports along the coast, would be incredible if it were not a notorious and substantiable fact; and it is still worse that they should pretend the ryots ought to make them at their own expense ; for pressed down, as they are, by a heavy load of taxes, which renders them too poor to purchase Company's salt for their miserable food of boiled rice and vegetable, the latter too frequently wild herbs, the spontaneous produce of the uncultivated eartti ; unable to supply themselves with clothes, beyond a piece of coarse cotton liahric, worth 2s., once in a twelvemonth, it is impossible for them to find the means or time for road-making gratis, even if they possessed the skill requisite for the purpose; and your Petitioners submit that it is the bounden duty of the State, which reduces them to their miserable condition, and keeps them in it from charter to charter, to spend a far larger portion of the revenues upon the improvement of the country whence they are derived than it does at present. It can find money to cairy on wars for self- aggrandizement, to allow immoderate salaries to its civil service, to pension off the whole of its members on 500 Z. a year each, and to pay interest at 10 per cent, to the proprietors of East India stock, all from the labour of the ryot ; and when he requires roads by which he might find the means of bettering his condition, and that of the revenue, he is told that he must make them for himself. 58. That the refusal of the local government to eflfect the necessary improvements, on t!;e ground of financial incapacity, has indeed much appearance of truth, owing to the circum- stance that the Supreme Government of India will not allow any money to be assigned to the purpose of improvements at this Presidency, unless she contributes to Ihe general reve- nue of the Company the quota of 50 lacs of rupees over and above her own expenditure; and as the surplus revenue for the year 1849-50 was only iis. 43,10,761, and all preceding years very much less, Madras on these terms can hope for but a small allowance; but the fact is that she is dealt by most unjustly in being compelled to furnish military protection to various districts, the revenues of which are paid into the treasuries of Bengal and Bombay ; the cost to her of the troops thus supplied amounts to iJs. 79,83,000, making, with the surplus already quoted, the sum of iis. 122,99,761, nearly 73 lacs above her assigned quota, and, were she to be allowed to spend her own surplus, there would be ample funds both for public works and for relief from injurious and impolitic taxation ; while the construction of good COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 35 good roads throughout the Presidency would go far to abate the severity of periodical Appendix, A. B. C. tamines, by permitting the easy transport of grain from one province to another, which is absolutely impossible under present circumstances, when a journey of any length would occasion the consumption of the grain for the support of tlie drivers and their cattle long before they could reach their destination. Your Petitioners, tiierefore, beg for thdt portion of redress which your Right honourable House shall judge due to the necessities of the people and the prosperity of the Presidency. 69. That your Petitioners now come to the representation of the grievances under which Company's Courts they labour, in connexion with the administration of civil law in the courts of the East of Law. India Company, the process of which, besides involving large unnecessary expense, is slow, complicated and imperfect. These courts comprise those of the moonsiffs, with a jurisdic- tion in suits under i?s. 1,000 ; of the sudr anieens, with a jurisdiction below i?s.2,5()0 ; of the principal sudr ameens, or subordinate judges, within Rs. 10,000 ; and of the zillah, or civil judges, with jurisdiction unlimited ; finally, the Court of Sudr Adawlut, the highest court of appeal in the country, having also discretionary power to call up certain suits from the civil courts for original investigation. •a- 60. That from the decisions of the moonsiffs, sudr ameens, principal sudr ameens, or subordinate judges, an appeal lies to the civil courts; decrees of these latter are similarly appealable to the Sudr Adawlut, and in suits involving i?s. 10,000 and upwards a further appeal to the Privy Council is open ; also cases appealed to the civil courts can have a special appeal to the Sudr Court, should there be any inconsistency with some law or usage in respect of whiih there may exist reasonable doubt. The moonsifs, sudr ameens and principal sudr ameens, ai'e either Europeans, East Indians or natives, but the subordinate, civil and sudr adawlut judges are covenanted civil servants. 61. That in all suits, whether in courts of the First Instance orin Appeal, every paper pre- sented to the court, the power of attorney to the vakeel, the pleadings, tlie exhibits of whatever kind must be on stamped paper of a certain value, varying in an ascending scale with the jurisdiction of the courts, from 4 annas (sixpence) to 4 rupees (8 shillings) per sheet of 30 lines, independently of an institution fee, payable in every court tiirough which a suit may be carried, according to the following scale : — In suits for sums not exceeding 16 rupees, one rupee ; above 16 and not exceeding 32, two rupees ; from 32 to 64, four rupees ; from 64 to 150, eight rupees ; from 150 to 300, sixteen ; from 300 to 8(i0, thirty-two ; from 800 to 1,600, fifty ; 1,600 to 3,000, one hundred; 3,000 to 5,000, one hundred and fifty; 5,000 to 10,000, two hundred and fifty; 10,000 to 15,000, three hundred and fifty ; 15,000 to 25,000, five hundred; 25,000 to 50,000, seven hundred and fifty ; 50,000 to 100,000, one thousand; above 100,000, two thousand; this fee is to be the stamp on the first sheet of the plaint or petition of appeal ; and all further sheets to complete the pleading must have each a stamo, varying, according to the court of jurisdiction, from 4 annas to 4 rupees. Ail prooeedings'in every suit are matter of record to meet the privilege of appeal. 62. That the vexatious delays arising out of the present judicial system, and the injury thereby inflicted cm the suitors, attracted the notice of the Court of Directors so long ago as the year 1814, as will be apparent from the following extract from a despatch to the govern- ment of this Presidency, dated the 29th April in that year, and printed by order of the Honourable the House of Commons, on the 1st July isig :— " 17. What also occasions the great arrears of suits in all our tribunals, botii European and native, is the process and forms by which justice is administered. This process and these forms are substantially the same as those of the superior tribunals in England, and even pass under the same names. The pleadings of the court are, almost in every case, written (as well as the evidence of witnesses), and they proceed by petition or declaration, replication and rejoiider, supplemental answer and reply. " 18. Such a minute and tedious mode of proceeding, in a country where the courts are so few, compared with the vast extent and population of it, must be quite incompatible with promptitude and despatch. Causes must be long pending, and slowly got over off the file; and the tardiness with which they are brought to a settlement must, in innumerabk instances, be a greater evil than the original injury sought to be redressed, to say nothing of the frequent visits which the litigant parties are under the necessity of making, for the purpose of filing their pleadings in the progress of tiie cause, according to the turn which the pro- ceedings may take. This grievance is one of no ordinary magnitude to the suitors, as well as to those who may be summoned to give evidence. On one description of persons it must, according to the information we have received from Colonel Munro, operate with peculiar severity :" we here refer to the heads of villages. ' They are (he observes) ' subject to great inconvenience and distress, being summoned as witnesses in every trifling litigation that goes before the judge from their respective villages. They are supposed to know the state of the matter better" than anybody else, and are therefore always summoned. They are detained weeks and months from the management of theirfarms, and are frequently no sooner at home than they are called away 50 or 100 miles by a fresh summons about some petty sui' which they could have settled much better on the spot; and crowds of them, as well as oftheprinc pal ryots, are always lying about the courts, and very often without its being known to the judge that they are there." (20. App.) ^^- '^^^* 36 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. 63. That, in order to exemplify the tediousness of the protractions to which suits are liable, your petitioners will select a few cases from " Decisions of the Sudr Adawlut," published by that court, embracing the last half-year of 1849 :— Date of Proceedings of Sudr Adawlut. Nature of Deciaion. Year of Original Suit. Time occupied. 2 July 1849 - >» » )> ;> 99 9> 20 Aug. „ - 1) ') 23 „ „ - 22 Oct. „ - 12 Nov. „ - 24 Dec. „ - Special appeal suit decided - - - Suit remanded to Civil Court Ditto - to ditto - . - Ditto - to ditto _ - - Suit remanded to Original Court - Suit remanded to Civil Court Decrees of Lower Courts reversed Suit remanded to Civil Court Ditto - to ditto _ - - Decree of courts below reversed after two remands in 1840 and 1844 1840 1845 1843 1846 1846 1847 1841 1846 1845 Uncertain 9 years , 4 » 6 „ 3 „ 3 „ 2 „ 8 ., 3 „ Above 15 „ 64. That the above extracts are from cases first exhibiting the dates of the original suits; and they disclose a principal feature of the progress of civil suits, viz. a remand to the inferior courts for re-investigalion and decision de novo, sometimes causing the litigation to be re-opened ab initio, and involving a second course of appeal; and although, in these cases, a portion of the stamp dues is remitted, still the pleaders must be paid, and other disburse- ments incurred, besides the fatigue and waste of time in journeying between the several courts, which, added to the uncertain and distant prospective of the final issue, are so harassing to body, mind, and pocket, that it would frequently be preferable to the successful party to have abandoned his rights, rather than to have exposed hipself to the annoyance, expense and interminable troubles of the Company's courts of law. And, under all these considerations, it will be obvious to your Right honourable House, that, where the value of the property in dispute is trifling, the lawful claimant would choose rather to forfeit his claim than prosecute it at an expense beyond its worth; and when the property is large, the heavy institution fee must act as a bar to the man of small means seeking the recovery'of his rights by the appalling process of the courts of the Company : your Petitioners con- sequently pray that trial at bar may be granted on a fixed day, with immediate decision, instead of an examination of witnesses from day to day, as they may delay their appearance ; and shorter modes of executing the decrees. 65. That great as are the evils of delay and expenditure, another, scarcely less formidable, is to be found in the imperfectness of the machinery, to which, in point of fact, the two first-mentioned evils principally owe their origin ; and consisting in the absence of sound judicial capacity in the presiding officers, especially those of the lower tribunals, scarcely one of wRom has even a moderate acquaintance with the vernacular language of the district in which he exercises his functions, has previously devoted any portion of his time to the study of jurisprudence, or experienced even a limited training in a judicial court ; and this evil is further aggravated by the injudicious manner in which they are appointed or removed. The heads of the judicial courts are in a state of perpetual transition; when one of them goes away from his post, he is generally replaced, ad interim, by the judge of another court, whose post also receives a temporary incumbent from a third court; and so on in a greater or less ramification of changes; all leaving many suits pending which have been partially heard by each of the judges prior to his temporary transition. Where these are intricate, the locum tenens usually alloy's them to he over till the return of his predecessor; or, if the current business cannot be delayed, they are imperfectly investigated and hurriedly disposed of, manifestly to the prejudice of the suitor in either case. 66. That the indifference of the local government to the interests of the suitors in their courts is further apparent, from the circumstance that a party acquainted with the native language of one district is appointed to another with the vernacular of which he is wholly unacquainted ; and one instance has lately occurred where Mr. A. Robertson, who is acquainted with Tamil only, was appointed to the Telugu district of Vizagapatam, where the administration, as Governor's agent, of both civil and criminal jusitce devolves on him; while Mr. W. A. D. Inglis, acquainted with Telugu, was transferred from Cuddapah, a dis- trict in which that language is s[)oken, to Chingleput, with the vernacular of which district he is totally unacquainted. The consequence of such appointments and exchange is, that the judge is necessarily thrown into the hands of the subordinatas of his new court, at whose mercy the suitors find themselves almost entiiely placed, with all the pernicious effects resulting from such an anomalous position. 67. That in connexion with the injudicious appointments to which your Petitioners have referred in the preceding paragraph, they beg leave to exemplify to your Right honourable House a few recent and striking instances. In 1847 Mr. E. P. Thompson was appointed a judge of the Sudr Adawlut, the highest court of appeal at this Presidency, when the whole of his experience in the judicial line — and that nine years previously— amounted to no more than COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 37 than five years and three months. In 1847 Mr. H. D. Phillips, who had been 8 years, Appendix, A. B.C. 9 months, and 20 days in the same line, his whole period of civil service being only 17 years, was sent as commissioner to Kurnool, such being chiefly a revenue appointment ; and sub- sequently, in 1860, as collector of Salem; while Mr. S. Scott, only 11 months in the judi- cial line, saving a little experience while commissioner in Kurnool, was nominated civil judge of Combaconum, one of the most frequented courts in this Presidency. In 1850 M r. Roupell, who had never done a day's duty as a judicial oflScer, was made civil judge (an appellate office, and with unlimited jurisdiction as a court of the First Instance) of the important dis- trict of Coimbatore, 68. That as regards removals, your Petitioners will instance the case of Mr. Morehead, judge of the Sudr Adawlut, who, in 1850, was ordered to proceed as a commissioner to Ceylon, to investigate some matter concerning a military officer (in which the people of this Presidency had no interest whatever), and during whose absence suits, partially investigated by him, could not be disposed of, to the injury of the suitors therein, and in one case to a suitor's utter ruin from the delay; on which occasion Mr. Freese, who, out of a civil service of 22 years, had passed less than two years in the judicial line, and that also very long ago, was temporarily appointed to the place of Mr. Morehead ; and they will also quote that of Mr. Strange, who was taken from his seat on the Sudr bench in this year to proceed on a Government mission into Malabar, on which he has now been absent nine months, and with the usual consequence of all suits examined or acted on by himself being suspended until his (uncertain) return ; while, to conclude the general character of the Company's judicial ser- vice with its commori appellation in this country, it is a " refuge for the destitute," all those persons who are too incompetent for the revenue department, being transformed into judges and dispensers of the criminal and civil law of the Mofussil. 69. Your Petitioners, when thus submitting to your Right honourable House the griev- ances endured by the people of this Presidency in the administration amongst them of civil law, are unable to lay down what might be deemed a fitting remedy ; but they may respect- fully, yet earnestly, press upon the consideration of your Right honourable House, that the evil of delay acknowledged to exist in 1814 is still unremedied, and that a more summary adjudication of civil suits than can now be obtained is essential for the welfare, comfort and happiness of the people ; that this cannot be obtained without altering the present system of appeal ; that in doing away v\ itb much of these appeals it is indispensable that the courts having summary and final jurisdiction should be presided over by two or more trained, experienced and legally quahfied judges ; and that experience shows such heads of courts are not to be found in the civil servants of the East India Company, while, as at present, untrained and not specially educated for such responsible situations. Your Petitioners would also suggest the propriety, amounting almost to necessity, of the class of superior judges being rendered incapable of displacement at the mere pleasure of the local government, in order to insure impartiality and justice in their decisions, especially in cases where the East India Company or the local government are parties to the causes to be adjudicated. 70. That besides the better training and more thorough education of the judges in a couise of legal knowledge, your Petitioners beg for a complete reformation in the practice of pleading, so that vakeels and pleaders may likewise be previously subjected to a course of sound- and thorough instruction, and obtain license to plead only upon regular certificates granted by the Sudr Adawlut, in regard to the necessity of which your Petitioners beg to quote the language of the despatch already referred to, in para. 62 : — " The defective and superficial acquaintance of the vakeels themselves with the regulations, their general inaptitude for the dischargeof their duties, has long been the theme of complaint on the part of our servants under the Bengal Presidency, as well as by Colonel Leith, who was employed under your Government in framing the original code of laws and regulations, and who has, in his letter to the Chairman to the Court of Directors, of the 25th January 1808, of which we formerly transmitted you a copy, expressed his opinion on the subject of the vakeels, in terms which have particularly attracted our attention. ' There is, perhaps,' he says, ' no part of the judicial system which has been attended with worse consequences than the vakeel branch of it ; they are in general extremely illiterate, and their situation gives theui various opportunities of committing abuses which are not easily detected ; in particular, they have been accused of promoting litigation, by holding forth false promises of .success to their clients ; their habits of intercourse with the natives, and their being, in a manner, the only persons who are acquainted with the regulations, makes it easy for them to do so. I do not hesitate in saying, that one great cause of the litigation and delay in law-suits has arisen from the native pleaders.' " 23. Your Board of Revenue also, in the Report to which we have already referred, have distinctly averred that ' the licensing of pleaders in vakeels had led to a series of fraud and cor- ruption in the zillah and provincial courts,' and they therefore recommend that in the revenue courts which it was then in contemplation to establish at the Presidency, ' pleading ore ^ewM* should be adopted, instead of petitions, replications, and rejoinders.' We therefore direct you to instruct the courts of Sudder Dewanny and Nezamut Adawlut, and the inferior courts, to communicate their ideas on this subject, and that you do thereupon revise the respective^ power.*!, together with the forms of process in both departments, with the view of rendering the proceedings in civil cases as summary as may be compatible with the ends of substantial justice ; " and to inform your Right honourable House that all things above noticed as (20. App.) K injurious 38 APPENDIX To MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B.C. injurious to suitors, arising from the ignorance and dislionesty of the vakeels, are as bad and 1_ common now as they were when Colonel Leith recorded his opinion. 71. That should it seem good to your Right honourable House to do away with the oppressive system of ryotwar, and substitute in its place the ancient village system of the country referred to in a former part of this Petition, your Petitioners pray that it may be restored in its intecrrity ; the potail or head of the village, and his village servants, being invested with the superintendence of the local police, an appeal against his proceedings to the courts of justice being allowed; the iiistitulion of the village punchayet, which is now only optional, being rendered imperative, and composed of respectable ryots, to be selected by the villagers in monthly rotation, the punchayet to take cognizance of civil causes for simple debt up to Rs. 100, with the power of passing a final decision when the amount does not exceed Ms. 20. 72. That a district punchayet be formed for a certain number of villages, the members being elected annually by rotation, having jurisdiction in suits to the extent of i?s. 500, to which appeals may be carried from the village punchayets in all cases within their cogni?ance above Ms. 20, and that an office of registry be established in each village in communication with the collector's cutcherry, for the prevention of frauds. And your Petitioners beg to refer your Right honourable House to the 48th and following paragraphs of the same judicial letter from the Court of Directors to this Government, for a full and favourable account of the punchayet system, to which they have adverted, the paragraphs being too many to be quoted at length within the compass of this Petition. 73. That the criminal courts of the Company are on a par with the civil courts, the judges being without pny distinct legal training, excepting what is to be obtained in the revenue department, where they have all previously held the appointment of magistrate and justice of the peace; and although they have regulations furnished for their guidance, framed by . the Surir Adawlut, the members of which are persons selected from their own body, and whose whole stock of judicial information is derived from their experience in more subor- dinate situations, their proceedings are too frequently heterogeneous, and based upon mis- apprehension of the regulations; and their inefficiency may be inferred from the facts that, in the year 1850, the latest date to which your Petitioners have access, in one distiict, that of Rajahmundry, the disproportion of the persons punished to the number summoned was nine per cent., of the former to 91 per cent, of the latter, 100 men having been brought up for every nine that were convicted ; in other districts the ratio has been in some 17. per cent., and in others 10 per cent., while the average ratio in all the districts throughout the Presidency showed that the number brought up to the magistrate was twice that of the convicted parties ; and these inconveniences, amounting very generally to injuries, are chiefly occasioned by the European magistrates giving their principal attention to their revenue duties, leaving those of the magistracy to be performed by their subordinates. That in two districts alone, those of Cambaconum and Tinnevelly, the number of individuals against whom the charges were declared to be wilfully false and malicious was 2,064 ; while the number of persons punished for bringing those charges was no more than 136. In the whole Presidency, for petty offences before the police, 51,602 persons were detained for periods running from three days to 60 and upwards, of whom 11,823 were detained above 30 days ; and as the number punished altogether was only 45,829, it follows that many were detained who were not offenders. Again, it is to be remarked, that 12,543 persons were detained from three to upwards of 30 days for crimes and misdemeanors, while the provisions of clause 4, section 27, Regulation XI. of 1816, limit the time for inquiry to 48 hours. 74. That these few facts taken from the Report of the Foujdaree Adawlut, sufficiently demonstrate the ill-working of that part of the administration of criminal justice which is entrusted to the police ; much of which might be remedied if the magisterial power were taken away from the collectors and their subordinates, who have full employment for all their time and talents, in the performance of their duties connected with the collection of the revenue, and on account of which, as above remarked, they depute so much of their func- tions connected with the police to the tehsildars ; that, although your Petitioners cannot distinctly discover, from the Report of the Foujdaree Adawlut, the individual crimes of the accused parties in the police cases, they are yet perfectly sure that tlie far greater portion have been made to arise from the demands tor the revenue; the tehsildars oeing able, in their magisterial capacity, to trump up false accusations, and to involve any number of persons in their charges ; this circumstance accounts for the number of parties brought up to the police, who were ultimately discharged; for the admitted number of false and mali- cious charges, for the paucity of punishments affecting the authors of the churges, and for the numerous detentions in violation of the regulations ; besides this, the police being all under the collector, and always more attentive to the exaction of the revenue than to the pre- servation of the Hves and property of the people, the natural consequence is, that bur- glaries, highway and gang robberies, are more or less prevalent in every district, which could not be the case if the police were efficient, and performed its proper duty. Your Peti- tioners pray, therefore, that this anomalous state of things may be rectified ; that the police may be made a separate department, as it was before the regulation of 1816; and that it may be enlarged to the extent necessary for the effective protection of the country. 75. That the " Select Reports of Criminal Cases," determined by the same court, afford abundant instances of the ill -working of that part of the administration which is committed to COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 39 to the higher class of criminal judges, of which your Petitioners will briefly quote a few cases. Appendix, A. B. C- At Masulipatam, at the 3d quarterly session of 1838, a person named Kota Ramudu and — fifteen others, were tried for gang robbery and murder, in an attack on the Talook treasury at Ellore, two of whom were convicted and sentenced to 14 years' hard labour in irons ; on the case coming before the Foujdaree Adawlut the sentence was changed into transportation for life ; subsequently to which further evidence was produced, which the said court con- sidered conclusive as to the innocence of the condemned parties, and orders were given for their release ; but in the interval one had died at the place of his transportation, the other was brought back, and, to quote the language of the reports, " a present of money was bestowed upon him by Government by way of compensation for the hardships he had under- gone." At Coimbatore, in October 1845, Ramadattan and four others were tried for murder, when the session judge convicted them all, and recommended that they should be severally sentenced to death. In this recommendation the first and third puisne judges of the Fouj- daree Adawlut, Mr. Waters and Mr. Boileau, coincided ; but the second judge, Mr. Lewiii, expressed his conviction that the murder had been perpetrated by two of the witnesses, and proposed that the trial should be laid before the chief judge, Mr. Dickinson, who concurred with Mr. Lewin ; when an additional judge, Mr. Thomas, was appointed to go into the case, and he concurring with Mr. Dickinson and Mr. Lewin, the prisoners were acquitted, and the session judge was reproved for not having properly attended to the regulations. In June 1848, Madiga Poturaza Karra Tippadu and two others were tried in Kurnool, before the agent to the Governor of Fort St. George, on the charge of murder. The agent con- victed Madiga, and recommended that he should be hanged, and that the second pri- soner should* give security. The Court of Foujdaree Adawlut considered " the evidence too weak and inconclusive for the conviction of, or even for a requisition of security from, any of the prisoners charged ;" acquitted Madiga, directing his unconditional release, and issued orders for the annulment of the requisition of security under which the second prisoner had been placed. After this sentence of acquittal had been passed by the Foujdaree Adawlut, the agent received information that the commission of the murder had been perpetrated by an unsuspected person named Sanjivigadu, who had confessed his guilt, and surrendered himself to the police. The agent of the Governor at this period was Mr. H. D. Phillips, whose eleven years of judicial experience would have hanged three innocent persons, upon evidence insufficient to demand a requisition of security from any one of them. In Angust 1850, Govind Row was tried at Combatore for murder and robbery. " The session judge, Mr. Roupell, in concurrence with the Mahomedan law officer, considered the evidence to be conclusive as to the prisoner's guilt, and referred the trial for the final judgment of the Foujdaree Adawlut, with a recommendation that he should be sentenced to suffer death." The Court observed that the examination was defective, and that there were discrepancies and omissions in the evidence for the prosecution, which vitiated the proof of several fir- curastances. They accordingly acquitted the prisoner of the crime charged, but ordered that he should find two securities in 50 rupees (5 Z.) each, for good behaviour and appear- ance when required within three years. 76. That your Petitioners restrict themselves to these four cases, because they are desirous not to lengthen their Petition unnecessarily; but they would request the attention of your Right honourable House to the last instance quoted, it having come under the cognizance of Mr. Roupell, the officer whom your Petitioners have mentioned in an earlier paragraph as having been appointed judge at Coimbatore, without having ever done a day's duty as a judicial officer. It is not, therefore, surprising, that his examinations should exhibit dis- crepancies, defects and omissions, nor that he should be obliged to lean on the Mahomedan law officer for support and guidance, which would have cost the prisoner his life except for the interference of the superior court; when Mr. Phillips could go as far wrong as he, after a duty of eleven years in the judicial department. 77. That these four instances are enough to show the absolute necessity for a change in the judicial system, as regards the appointment of judges holding jurisdiction over the lives and" persons of Her Majesty's subjects in this Presidency ; and your Petitioners may desire a change in the laws or regulations also, by the introduction of a better code than that of the Mahomedans; by which, to name only one particular, adultery is made a criminal oflPence, whereas by English and Hindu law it is one of civil action for pecuniary damages. A com- prehensive code, pubhshed in English, and translated for the information of the public, Avould do away with the necessity of Muftees or Mahomedan law officers ; while the restriction of judicial employment to a separate class of persons, trained to an acquaintance with it, both by theory and practice, would render the judges at home in their own courts, and instil a confidence among the people which is, and must ever be, wanting in the regulations and judges of the Company as at present constituted. 78. That great inconvenience is continually resulting to the people from the mipocsibility Public Records, of o-ettino- access to the public records and documents of the various offices, of which your Peritione's will give two or three instances: in the year 1846, the Hindu community for- warded to the Court of Directors, through the local government, a memorial, the receipt of which was acknowledged by the Chief Secretary, with the remark, that the memonahsts ought to " refrain from representations touching the proceedings of Government, whilst the facts and official documents which alone contain the true record of these facts are unknown to them •" and when on this intimation an application was made for certain information con- nected with a second memorial then in course of preparation, the same Chief Secretary replied (20'' A PP.) ^''"^ 40 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. £ducat«on. that the application was irregular, aijd, instead of supplying the information, referred them to the former letter. In the present year the Madras Native Association applied for access to official data, necessary to enable them to draw up this Petition to your Right honourable House, when no notice was vouchsafed to their application ; and, lastly, about five months ao-o on the 9th July, application was made on behalf of the Memorialists for the second time requesting to be informed if the orders of the Court of Directors, which the Govern- ment had stated, in reply to a previous application, it was then awaiting, in consequence of the Court's despatch not being sufficiently explicit, had been received ; and if so, that they might be communicated to the Memorialists : the Chief Secretary ordered it to be recorded, but has given no answer up to the present date. There are also innumerable instances in which natives accused to their superiors of misconduct, are constantly refused copies of office documents by which to establish their defence, and free themselves from false accusations.. Your Petitioners therefore request, that parties on making application may be entitled to take or to receive copies of such papers as they may wish to possess for such purposes ; as well as that all official papers of general interest may be printed for sale at cost price ; by this practice the Government would be considerable gainers, as its acts, and the reasons of them, would thereby be rendered public, together with their attendant circumstances ; and they would no longer be subject to misrepresentation and misconstruction, as they are and must continue to be under the operation of the present system of official secrecy. 79. That your Petitioners will next advert to the state of national education in this Pre-, sidency, in the hope that your Right honourable House will take measures for enforcing the obedience of the local government to such future regulations as the wisdom of your Right honourable House may lay down for its guidance in the time to come. Your Petitioners will trace the subject no further backwards than to the year J 826, when Sir Thomas Munro,. being Governor, proposed in a Minute, dated 10th March, that the system of native educa- tion should receive assistance from the State, which should be small at first, but increasing gradually till it extended to the formation of 40 collectorate schools, and 300 tehsiidary; schools for the entire Presidency, the estimated expense, when in complete operation, being calculated at jRs. 48,000. The Court of Directors, in a despatch dated the 16th April 1828, sanctioned the annual appropriation of Rs. 50,000 for this purpose ; and immediately on the receipt of this sanction, the proposed plan was put into partial operation, and continued till the year 1834, when the College Board for native instruction declared it a great failure. On this, the Government proposed a modification of the plan, extending the expenditure to Rs. 90,000, which, on being referred to the Supreme Government, was dis- approved of by that authority, which recommended an effective seminary at Madras, for instruction in English, and provincial English schools, as far as the allowed funds should be available. From this time projects were formed, but not carried into effect, till on the 12th December 1839, the Government deemed it expedient to establish a central collegiate institution at Madras, which was to be self-supporting, by means of public donations and, the exaction of fees from the pupils. The institution was opened on the 14th April 1841, when it was publicly stated, that should it " appear to answer its design, and require in its early existence some small pecuniary help at the hands of Government, the School Board would recommend with confidence its interests to the Government ;" but no donations being forthcoming, and the number of pupils few, from that period to the present the annual sum of from Rs. 25,000 to iJs. 30,000, has been regularly granted to the institution. 80. That it will thus be apparent, that, instead of education being shared equally among all the districts of the Presidency, it is confined altogether to the town of Madras, in which a single school, attended'by 160 pupils, on the average of its ten years' existence, absorbs more than one-half of the grant awarded for the entire population of 22,000,000, while the other half of the grant has lain useless in the Government treasury ever since the grant was in existence. 81. That while the Presidency of Bombay, with a population of 10,000,000, and instead of yielding a surplus revenue, has a defioiency of 50 lacs of rupees annually, enjoys a grant of a lac and a quarter of rupees, and communicates instruction at 185 schools, frequented •by 12,712 pupils, Madras, with her actual surplus revenue of 73 lacs of rupees, and more than twice the population, is stinted to two-fifths of the amount, and by the parsimony and indecision of her local government has been deprived of one-half of even this small allowance, ever since the grant was made by the Court of Directors. 82. That your Petitioners desire from your Right honourable House the increase of this grant proportionately to the number of the population, and the establishment of efficient schools throughout all the districts of the Presidency, their number and location to be totally irrespective of the schools estabhshed by the various missionary societies for the purposes of conversion ; and, as the English language is at present but very little known in the inte- rior, they desire that the teaching of the vernaculars, instead of being neglected as at the Presidency, shall meet with the attention they so greatly need ; and to that end that provi- sion be made for the translation of useful and scientific works from the English, for which special purpose there could be appropriated the eight lacs of rupees now lying in the Government treasury, and being the remaining surplus of the pagoda funds or revenues accruing to the Hindu temples whilst under the management of Government officers. 83. That with reference to the subject of national education, your Petitioners are anxious to bring to the notice of your Right honourable House certain proceedings which are now in train, COMMITTEE ON THE GOVBRNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 41 train, in order to appropriate part of the educational grant towards the assistance of Appendix A. B.C. missionary or convertising operations, as they exist at various stations throughout this '— ' Presidency, under the name of a " Grant-in- Aid System," by which it is proposed to extend the pecuniary assistance of Government " to other institutions which are now or can be made the instruments of imparting a sound and liberal education," " whether conducted by missionary bodies or others ;" with which view the Government has issued a circular in the public department to the different collectors, in which each is directed to " furnish the Government with the best and fullest information in your power regarding the educational institutions within your district, whether conducted by private parties, or missionary or other public bodies ;" and has further recorded in Minutes of Consultation, dated 1st November 1852, " The Governor in Council is not of opinion that any Government schools should be set up at stations in the provinces where private missionary or other public seminaries have already been established, and have been found adequate to the instruction of the people. To that opinion he will now add, that he considers it very desirable to extend moderate pecuniary assistance to such schools, as a means of diffusing education on sound and unex- ceptionable principles, and he proposes that the honourable Court be solicited to entrust the Government with a discretionary pov/er on this point." 84. That your Petitioners would point out for the consideration of your Right honourable House, that this proposed appropriation of the education funds to the support of Christian institutions was rejected by the Court of Directors in a despatch to this Government, dated 24th August 1844, in reply to an official application in behalf of an institution at the Presi- dency, called '' Bishop Corrie's Grammar School," on the ground that it did not come " within the object of the funds set apart for the promotion of native education." There is also on record a letter of the Court of Directors with reference to the introduction of the Bible as a class-book into the schools to be established from those funds, which says, " The provincial schools and the iVIadras University are intended for the special instruction of Hindoos and Mahomedans in the English language and the sciences of Europe; we cannot consider it either expedient or prudent to introduce any branch of study which can in any way interfere with the religious feelings and opinions of the people ; all such tendency has been carefully avoided at both the other Presidencies, where native education has been suc- cessfully prosecuted. We direct you, therefore, to refrain from any departure from the practice hitherto pursued." 85. That your Petitioners hereupon represent to your Right honourable House, if it be contrary to the intentions for which the educational giant was bestowed, to devote any por- tion of it in aid of an institution where convertism is neither professed nor practised, as at Bishop Corrie's Grammar School, or to permit the establishment of a Bible class in any of the Government schools, although the attendance at such class was to be left entirely optional with the pupils, it would be a much wider divergence from the object, and a much greater " interference with the religious feelings and opinion of the people," to apply the funds — especially at the discretion of the Madras Government, at all times notoiious for its prose- lyting propensities— in support of missionary institutions, wherein the study of the Bible is not optional, but compulsory, and which are avowedly set on foot and maintained for the single object of convertising the pupils, to whom on that account education is imparted free of charge; and your Petitioners conceive that the support of such institutions by the Government would be productive of the worst consequences, as it would distinctly identify the ruling authorities with the one grand object of such schools, the proselytism of the natives; the only difference between which and the undisguised practice of convertism in the schools supported solely by the State would amount to this : Government would pay twice the price for a convert of its own direct making, which it would have to pay under the " Grant-in-Aid," to the seminaries of the missionaries; at the same time it would place itself at the head of all the missionary societies in the Presidency, doubling th sir pecuniary resources, enabling them to increase the number of their agents, and to extend their con- veitising operations exactly in proportion to the " discretionary power " with which this Government, in the Minutes above quoted, desires to be entrusted. 86. That your Petitioners cannot avoid remarking, that the desire of the Madras Govern- ment with regard to rendering the educational funds committed to its trust subservient to the purposes of proselytism, is of^sonie standing. The Marquess of Tweeddale, while entertaining the proposition of the Council of Education, to adopt the Bible as a class-book, recorded his approbation of the measure, observing, in a Minule dated the •24th August 1846, — " The value of a religious and practical education to fit our countrymen for the various duties of life has been established beyond all doubt;" and again, — " The reports and complaints so constantly made to Government against the integrity of the native servants are sufficient evidence that something is wanting to ensure a faithful service from them ;" and again, — it " requires a more soHd foundation than is to be found in the Hindu or Mahomedan faiths to bear the change which learning operates on the mind of those who are placed by their superior abilities in responsible situations in the employ of Government." And the present Governor in Council, in his Minute approving of the " Grant-in-Aid" to the missionaries, has deemed it expedient to record,—" Although it is perhaps not immediately relevant to the subject of these proceedings, yet, as it is a momentous point in looking at the general question of education to the natives, the Governor in Council is compelled to stale, both from observation and sedulous inquiry, that he has arrived at the conclusion that the people of this part of India, at least, have neither by any means had their minds expanded and (20 App.) ^ ^"'^'^g^'i 42 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A» B. C. Church Establishment. Exorbitant and ill-used Power of the Legislatire Council. enlarged to the degree that might have been anticipated through the instruction and care that has been bestowed upon them, nor has he seen any sufficient reason' to indulges belief that their innate prejudices have been removed, or even lessened, or their moral character and sense of veracity, integrity, and proper principle improved. He does not deny but that there maybe occasional bright exceptions; but he is of opinion that, whatever system of education may be enforced hereafter, its chief aim ought to be directed' to moral improvement, combined with extirpating the foul vices of untruthfulness and dishonesty, which are hardly now iield by the great masses to be a reflection, unless discovered." 87. That your Petitioners do not consider this the proper place to remark upon the gra- tuitous insult offered to their whole community by the Government, in recording such an opinion for the sole purpose of transmission to the governors of the Madras University, onq- half of whom, to the number of seven, are natives, under its constitution ; but they beg to observe that it ill becomes the Government to taunt the natives with " the instruction and care that has been bestowed on theni," whilst it has for so many years declined disbursing one-half of the educational grant, and contented itself with keeping up a school of IGO pupils, esta- blished so far from the town of Madras as to make it inconvenient for persons to send their children, besides charging a school fee beyond the means of payment by the masses ; and when, besides this ili-located and over-charging institution, therfi is not a government school o\er all the 140,000 square miles comprising the Madras territories. 88. That this sweeping condemnation, if it be justly founded, which your Petitioners are rather loath to believe, seeing that Sir Henry Pottinger has never been known to mix with the natives, except now and then when he may have presided at the annual university exa- minations, and other such meetings, and with the servants of his household, — exhibit the fallacy of both the past and present Governments, in imagining the study of the Bible to be a panacea for the " vices of untruthfulness and dishonesty ;" for, as the whole of the instruction and care bestowed on the natives, beyond that bestowed upon the 160 pupils of the university, has been missionary care and instruction, devoted to the study of the Bible, and that in the proportion of thousands to tens, it must be apparent that the " sound and unexceptionable principles" adverted to in the Minute, have done literally nothing for the " moral improvement " of the pupils into whose minds they have been so sedulously instilled, and therefore "there can be no valid reason for extending a " Grant-in-Aid " to institutions which have thus essentially failed ; but there is a very strong reason against such aid being given, in order to assist in the conversion of the people, with whose religious feelings and opinions the Court of Directors has so frequently pledged itself not to interfere, and with regard to which the present Charter Act, passed by the Imperial Parliament, enacts and requires, that the Governor-General in Council shall by laws and regulations provide for the protection of the natives within the British territories from insult and outrage in their per- sons, religions or opinions. 89. That your Petitioners, being aware, from several sources, that both the Anglican and Scottish State churches are making great efforts, both in this country and in England, for an increase of clergymen upon their respective estabhshnients in India, respectfully, but most determinately, remonstrate against any increase to either. They admit the propriety of military chaplains for the European troops, but repudiate the injustice of the people of this country being compelled to support a couple of State establishments for a mere handful of foreigners, professors of a foreign creed ; and, while they will not object to the number of clergy already in the country, they desire to see them appropriated entirely to the military service, and that whatever augmentation be needed, the requisite funds shall be provided by the individuals by whom such services may be requested. The community to which your Petitioners belong supports its own religion ; so do the Mahomedans and the various dis- senters from the Church of England at this Presidency ; even the Anglicans have com- menced to do the same, and justice demands that they should be left as much to them- selves as all other sects are ; and your Petitioners earnestly pray your Right honourable House that the people of this country may be no further taxed for the maintenance of a number of individuals who are of no earthly use to them ; but that their expenses may be borne wholly and solely by those persons to whom their ministrations are necessary and acceptable. 90. That your Petitioners would be wanting in their duty towards the entire Hindu com- munity, from one end of India to the other, if they omitted to complain to your Right honourable House respecting the enormous power granted to the Governor-General in Council, and the unjust partiality with which that power has been exerciseH, in what it has been pleased to term the Lex Loci, by which is meant an enactment subverting in one of its most essential and venerated points the Hindu law of inheritance, guaianteed to them on various occasions by the local government and the Court of Directors, and further sanc- tioned and secured to them by special Act of Parliament, 21 Geo. 3, c. 70, which provides that the " inheritance and succession to lands, rents, goods, &c., shall be determined, in the case of Mahomedans, by the laws and usages of the Mahomedans ; and in the case of Gentus, by the laws and usages of Gentus; and where only one of the parties shall be a Mahome- dan or Gentu, by the laws and usages of the defendant ;" and again, " that all the rights and authorities of fathers of families, and masters of families, according as the same might have been exercised by the Gentu or Mahomedan law, shall be preserved to them respec- tively within their said families." 91. That COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 43 01. That the subversion of the rights thus guaranteed by the Indian and Home author!- Appendix, A. B. C, rities, as well as by the Imperial Parliament, was first openly attempted in the year 1845, when an Act, intituled the Lex Loci, was drafted, and the draft pubhshed for general infor- mation on the 2dth January ; immediately consequent upon which publication, remonstrances from the majority of the three Presidencies were sent up to the Supreme Government, and the Act did not pass into law ; between that date and the year 1849, it was discovered that, so far back as the year 1832, there had appeared in the middle of a Bengal Regulation about revenue matters, ziliah judges, moonsifiPs, ameens, 8i.c., &c., and consisting of 18 sections, a few lines, forming section 9, directing that " in civil suits wherein the parties are of dif- ferent religious persuasions, the Mahomedan and Hindoo laws shall not be permitted to operate to deprive of property to which, but for the operation of those laws, the parties would be entitled." 92. That this section, with whatever intentions it may have been originally framed, never had more than one instance of practical application during the thirteen years subsequent to the Regulation, viz. in May 1849, after the correspondence on the Lex Loci had occasioned the discovery that these sections were in existence ; and it was during all the previous time unknown to the bulk of the population, whose attention was first attracted to it by its repro- duction in 1849, in order to render it applicable to the whole of India. That in rendering it so applicable, the law member of the legislative council, Mr. Bethune, recorded the follow- ing observations : " I have prepared an Act for this purpose, though with some lingering doubt of the justice of the measure. According to Hindoo notions, the right which a son has to succeed to his father's property is commensurate with his obligation to perform his funeral obsequies, from which the outcaste is necessarily excluded. Put the case of pro- perty bequeathed in England to a man on ceriain conditions, which conditions he by his own voluntary act renders himself incapable of performing : what should we say to a law which nevertheless secures the property to him ?" Mr. Dick, a Judge of the Sudr Dewany Adawlut, also recorded, — " This Act differs essentially in principle from Regulation VII., 1832, section 9 : that did not in any way interfere with the religion of the Hindoos; this does. The law of inheritance of Hindoos is founded on their religion." 93. That, notwithstanding Mr. Bethune's confession of its injustice, and Mr. Dick's remark that the Act proposed was so " essentially " different from the Regulation, the Act was determined upon by the four members of council, Messrs. Bethune, Littler, Currie and Lowis, and passed into law under the declaration that it was merely the extension of the principle of the Regulation from the Presidency of Bengal to all the territories subject to the government of the East India Company, with the concurrence of the Governor-General, Lord Dalhousie, who recorded that he could " see no semblance of interference with the religion of the Hindoos, nor any unauthorized interference with rights secured to them." 94. That the Act thus passed in 1850 has been stretched, even beyond the principle on ^hich it was professedly framed, by Sir William Burton, puisne judge of the Supreme Court of Judicature at this Presidency, in the following instance : a married Hindoo, named Valungypaukum Streenevasa, became the convert of a missionary agent named Symonds, by which act the convert renounced his caste, and thereby forfeited all claim to his former relationship including that to his wife, to whom by the Hindu law he became virtually dead, and she herself bound to perform his funeral obsequies. The wife, adhering to the faith of her country, refused to associate with him in his new condition, and remained with her own relations for some time, until she was ordered to appear in court under a writ of Habeas Corpus granted on the application of the said Streenevasa, and served upon the woman's father by whom the affidavit of the convert stated that she was against her will detained. 95. That the return to this writ was a denial by the father that his daughter was or Iiad been in his custody, and it was supported by an affidavit, that " neithf r he, nor any one by his order hcid ever exercised any constraint over Lutchmee," his daughter. In the mean- time however Lutchmee had been inveigled to come into court at the persuasion of her father's legal adviser, upon the false assurance that she would be permitted her free option of going to her husband or returning to her relations. She accordingly came forward on being called for, and after counsel had been heard on both sides, Sir William Burton, — having first refused the request of the father's counsel " to ascertain the wishes of the girl," — pro- ceeded to give an elaborate opinion, concluding with the assertion, that " the Act passed in 1850 in this country has swept away, as to all fo.ce in courts of law, that system in India which was equally tyrannical and oppressive," and with this declaration he ordered Lutchmee to be delivered over to the custody of her husband. " This order fur the delivery of Lutch- mee to her husband," — your Petitioners quote the words from a printed pamphlet, entitled, " The Case of Lutchmee Ummall," edited and prefaced by Rev. Symonds, — " was no sooner made known to her, than she manifested a decided unwillmgness to be given over, and on the approach of Streenevasa to take her by the hand, she sharply repulsed him, say- ino' ' You have nothing to do with me.' At the same time, also, her aunt, by whom she was accompanied, began to utter loud wailiig and laiiicntations, and clung to her niece with a view to prevent her being taken away. Eventually the judge was compelled to direct one of the officers of the court to separate Kunnamal from Lutchmee, and to remove the latter to one of the rooms in the court, where Streenevasa joined her. The scene was altogether most excitinion of Sir William as erroneous as it is tyrannical and oppressive ; for in a more recent instance at Bombay, wherein a Hindu convert sought to recover his wife by means of a Habeas Corpus, the Chief Justice, Sir Erskine Perry, refused to let it issue, and delivered his reasons in open court, referring at the same time to the decision of the Madras Puisne Judge, as reported in the following sentence: "With reference to the case decided at Madras, his Lordship admitted that it militated very strongly against the principle he had laid down ; but, bound as he was to pay every respect to the opinion of Sir William Burton, he (Sir E. Perry) felt it his duty to say that he differed from it entirely. His Lordship had, therefore, no hesitation in refusing the present application." 98. That your Petitioners, feeling themselves highly aggrieved by the practice of Sir Wil- liam Burton in deciding cases in which missionaries and Hindus are the op])Osing parties, by his religious feehngs, rather than the principle of justice, beg to advert to two of his former decisions ; the first of which was passed in the year 1846, in which a Hindu boy; named Ragavaloo, was produced in court, his father asserting that he was not of age according to Hindu law, the missionaries, on the contrary, asserting that he was of age, when the Puisne Justice, not being otherwise able to favour the missionaries, said he should decline resting what was his view of the case upon the mere point of age, and that it was not years, but discretion that was to guide the Court in this matter. He accordingly put a few questions to the Tad, one of which was, " Does Christ forgive sins as God or Medi- ator?" To which the reply was, "As Mediator." After which he observed, "He is choosing good for himself; he is choosing that which he believes will be for his salva- tion ;" and, making his good choice the evidence that he was of age to choose, he delivered the lad into the hands of the missionaries. 99. That the second instance happened in 1847, the child in dispute being a female, named Mooneatha, upon which occasion Sir William Burton, alluding to his former deci- sion in the case of Ragavaloo, acknowledged, that, " had the object of his choice been bad, I should have come to another decision." 'I'here was, however, no occasion this time to substitute discretion and a good choice in the place of age, as an affidavit was put into court from two doctors in the Company's service, to this efl'ect,^" We, upon our oaths, say, that we did, at the request and in the presence of the Reverend John Anderson, on the 19th April 1847, examine and inspect the person of Mooneatha, and that we are of opinion that the said Mooneatha is of the age of 12 years, or thereabouts; " with reference to which the Puisne Judge remarked, " We know that there is no circumstance, no tempta- tion, no consideration, no interest, that would lead these gentlemen to deceive this Court. We know what they state, they have seen and do believe ;" and accordingly the Court adjudged the possession of the girl, — thus shamelessly and insultingly submitted to examina- tion and inspection by three men, one of them a Christian minister,— to the missionaries, although the fact that she was not of the age of puberty was incontestably proved, from the very circumstance of her being allowed to attend Mr. Anderson's school, Hindu females, after that period, not being permitted to go abroad, unless they are married women. 100. That from these circumstances, as well as others wherein Sir William Burton has expressed himself inimical to the Hindu community, in open court upon the bench, your Petitioners earnestly beg that no more judges affected by a religious bias, which induces them to carry their peculiar creed to the bench of justice, and there to follow its impulses in their decisions of cases brought up for their adjudication, may be appointed, either to the COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 45 the Puisne or Chief Justiceship in the Supreme Court at this Presidency,- conduct like that Appendix, A. B. C. to which your Petitioners have been referring being calculated to inflict great misery upon the Hindu community in their social relations, and to create public disturbances, leading to the most mischievous consequences, among a people patient and submissive under every change of government, and roused to the open expression of their feelings only by what they consider.to be grossly insulting and cruelly oppressive towards a religion of some thousand years' establishment, and which has been handed down to them as the most sacred deposit from their ancestors. 101. That your Petitioners, as subjects of the Madras Presidency, beg to represent to Subordinate your Right honourable House the injustice and injury they suffer from the system which I'residencies. places the whole of its resources at the disposal of the Supreme Government, by which the improvement of this portion of India is retarded, and the poverty of the population impoli- ticly augmented. Not only is the local Government prohibited from disbursing the public revenue raised within it to local purposes, but a large portion of it is so brought upon the general books of the Supreme Government as to depreciate the value of the Presidency as a distinct portion of British India, and to make other portions of it appear more valuable than they really are; and this factitious system of accounts is made a reason with the para- mount authority for denying the improvements of which Madras is so deplorably in need, and to which she is most undoubtedly entitled. 102. That, as an instance of this injustice, your Petitioners will explain, that many years ago the sum of 50 lacs of rupees, or 500,000 /., was fixed as the amount which Madras ought to contribute to the general expenses of the Indian empire, over and above her own charges ; and from 1821 to the present time it has been the constant practice with the Supreme Government to press retrenchment and economy on this Presidency, and to refuse sanction to expenditure or improvements essential to her advancement, on the plea that her surplus fell short of that required amount ; and thus Madras is screwed down to the lowest point, on the false ground that she does not pay her fair quota of revenue, while Bengal, on the reputation of an enormous surplus, is allowed to make disbursements too frequently bor- dering upon wasteful extravagance. 103. That this different treatment observed towards two component parts of the same empire, even if the case stood as is fallaciously pretended, would be scarcely just, most certainly ungenerous, and singularly impolitic; but if the case be otherwise, the treatment of Madras is not simply unjust and impolitic, but becomes an act of tyrannous oppression; and that the case is otherwise your Petitioners proceed to show. The surplus is counted over the 60 lacs settled as the amount of her own expenditure, which includes the military cliarges incurred on her own account only; but for a series of yeais past a large pait of these charges has been incurred on account of troops garrisoning countries, the entire revenues of which are paid into the treasuries of Bengal and Bombay, viz., the Sanger and Nurbudda country, Mhow, Nagpore — the subsidiary force, Cuttack and Balasore, Tenas- serim coast, the Straits settlements, and Aden, belonging to Bengal ; and the southern. Jvi aharatta country, belonging to Bombay: the Madras force in all these several districts or stations amounts to four regiments of native cavalry and 16 nf infantry, together with one troop of horse artili^'ry and 10 J companies of foot artillery, the charges for which are within a fraction of 80 lacs of rupees, or 800,000 /. per annum, which, though defrayed by her, are no part of " her own charges," and amount to 30 lacs over and above the surplus at which her revenue was rated, in order to entitle her to draw upon her own treasury for local " expenditure and improvement ;" but, besides this, the official statements, published by order of the Honourable the House of Commons, have given her a credited surplus for several vears past, the latest your Petitioners have access to being that of 1849-50, in which it is set down at 43 lacs and upwards, which, added to the .SO lacs arising out of the military expenses incurred on account of Bengal and Bombay, give her for that year no less than 73 lacs beyond her quota towards the general expenditure of the empire, and which, as such, ought to have been at her disposal. 104. That besides this giant injury, there are many others occasioned by the centraliza- tion of authority in the Supreme Government. No alteration of salaries, no revision of office establishments, can be made without the previous concurrence of the controlling power, and the difficulties and delays in the way of obtaining this concurrence are such, that tire heads of offices will put up with experienced inconveniences, both temporary and permanent, rather than seek so laborious and troublesome a remedy. Instances have been known in which such applications received no notice for nearly two years, and when a reply was again solicrted, the answer was a request that copies of the papers might be sent, as the originals were lost. Sometimes it has been proposed by the Madras Government to modify establishments by reduction in one quarter, in order to strengthen another, and the result of the application has been, that the reductions have been sanctioned, and the addi- tions refused. Very recently the engineering officer of the 1st division. Colonel Arthur Cotton, having satisfied himself by local inquiries that reasonable ground existed for believing that the River Godavery might be rendered navigable for 400 miles inland from the sea, applied to the Madras Government for a small sum of money to enable him personally to explore the river in a small steamer he had himself built for the service of the Godavery annicut ; but on the sanction of the Supreme Govesnment being requested to an outlay for this purpose, not exceeding 1,000 /,, it was refused, because the President in Council did not see what advantage could be gained by this project, although by its accomplishment the culture of cotton in the province of Berar would have been indefinitely extended for the consumption of the Manchester manufacturers, and the grain-producing districts in the (20. App.) M <^elta 46 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. Modification of the Councils. delta of the river would have found access to markets from which they are now per- manently excluded. 105. That this utter preclusion of all improvement to this Presidency, from the systematic obstructiveness of the Supreme Government, compels your Petitioners to request that in the arrangements of your Right honourable House for the future government of India, the Governor in Council at Madras may be allowed the free use of its functions, necessary for providing for the welfare and prosperity of the people entrusted to its care ; and that its construction be modified after the precedent of the neighbouring Crown settlement of Ceylon, where the council is composed of official and non-official members, and, among the latter, natives of this country are included. That your Petitioners would suggest that this council be composed of officials and non-officials in equal number, six or seven of each ; the former to be nominated by the Government, on taking their place at the council board in virtue of their office, the Advocate-general being one ; and the latter to be selected by the Governor, out of a list of 18 or 21 persons, chosen by the votes of the ratepayers in Madras, and of persons eligible to serve on the grand and petty juries, or in such other manner as your Right honourable House may deem preferable : that as the official members, in conjunction with the casting vote of the Governor when requisite, could always carry any point of absolute importance, there could be no hindrance to the safe working of the suggested plan, while a sufficiency of information on all subjects would be afforded; which, together with the discussions being carried on, as at Ceylon, with open doors, could not fail to be of the utmost utility to the advancement and prosperity of the people and the Presidency. 106. That all minor subjects should be definitively determined by the Governor in Council; but, on all questions of importance, their decisions should be transmitted to the Govern- ment of India, there to be again publicly discussed, prior to sanction or rejection; and also that on any minor subject, determined by the casting vote of the Governor, there should be an appeal from the minority to the Supreme Counnil ; and, as your Petitioners are aware that a more economical public expenditure is imperatively necessary, they would propose that the salary of the Governor be fixed at jRs. 7,000 per mensem, and that the salaries of all persons composing what is now termed the covenanted service be reduced prospec- tively, in similar proportion ; that the members of council shall draw no salary for that appointment, and that, as is now the case in Ceylon, the holders of official situations shall constitute the service, instead of an appointment by covenant, conveying a claim to be employed by the State exclusively to all others. 107. That, in the deliberate opinion of your Petitioners, legislative councils thus or simi- larly constituted, and entirely distinct from the executive, are as feasible on this continent as in the neighbouring island of Ceylon ; and that their constitution is the great desideratum for the just and efficient government of each presidential division of the vast empire of British India ; all general questions of political importance, involving peace and war, and the movements of the miliiary and marine forces consequent thereon, together with the requisite but salutary control of the subordinate councils, being vested in the Supreme Government for all Indi^. That a single council for the whole of India, although consti- tuted on the same popular principle, would never be able to distribute justice and effective government to a hundred and twenty millions of people, spread over an area of upwards of a million and a quarter of square miles, and comprising so great a variety of races and lan- guages ; the more distant provinces, as is the case at present, would be neglected and oppressed ; while the nearer ones would absorb all its attention, and engross the whole of its indulgence ; whereas by granting to each Presidency a local government for the manage- ment of its internal affairs, the members of it would watch over the interests of the whole circuit committed to their charge; of which, from their local knowledge, they would be enabled, and from their sympathy would be induced, to seek and pursue the welfare and progressive improvement. 108. That with respect to the Supreme Council, your Petitioners suggest that it should, in some degree at least, partake of the popular element recommended to be embodied in the councils of the Presidencies, which should have their respective interests equally represented by a like immber of members, the whole of whom should be allowed a reasonable and respectable salary, they being prohibited from holding any other office in conjunction with that of councillor ; and that, besides the presidential representatives, there should be three others appointed from England, who, besides being members of the legislative council, should constitute the executive council, the Governor-General being the president of both; the executive of the subordinate Presidencies consisting of the Governor and the members ex-officio to the number of three, in addition to the president. 109. That your Petitioners, knowing from experience the inexpediency of the home admi- nistration by a Board of Control and a Court of Directors, from neither of which can the people obtain any redress, nor even the slightest notice of their petitions and memorials, would suggest the desirableness of fusing these two bodies into one, or of substituting another in their place, presided over by a Secretary of State for the Affairs of India, and having its chief secretary appointed by the Crown, so that it may be amenable to Parlia- ment, as any other board or office, its president bSing a member of the Cabinet, and receiving the same salary as the Chief Secretaries of State in the other departments. That, as regards the members of this council, their qualifications and the mode of their appointments, your Petitioners have no suggestions to offer, beyond that of their having, at least one-half of them, some tangible interest connected with this country, as well as a general knowledge of its condition and requirements, obtained by a personal residence in the country during a specified COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 47 specified term of years; the remainder, who have neither of these qualifications, to be recom- Appendix ABC mended by intellectual ability and habits of business. L 110. That, in whatever manner the superior branches of the administration, both at home Emplovment of and abroad, may be modified,— and modified your Petitioners presume they must be, to suit the Natives by the the altered condition of men and things which has taken place in the lapse of the last 20 ^^ate. years,— justice to the masses of the people in general, and towards the more intelligent of them in particular, requires that the hitherto prevalent system of governing the country through the exclusive medium of a covenanted civil service should be, if not wholly, at least partially, abandoned, for the following reasons : 111. That young men under this privilege are sent to India, fresh from school, and without any knowledge of the world, without habits of business, or even the desire and intention to acquire them. Ignorant of the customs and language of the people, they are placed almost immediately on their arrival in India upon large allowances, in the position of assistant collectors and magistrates, and, being on a level with their superiors in office, as component parts of the same exclusive service, they consider their own ease and pleasure as the first advantage to be derived from their new situation, and look upon the zealous and proper discharge of their official functions, in promoting the benefit of the people, with the natural indiffei ence of persons sure of their salaries and immunities by the simple fact of their first appointment from home. 112. That an assistant collector has generally placed under his immediate authority one or more divisions of the collectorate, termed talooks, within which he represents his superior, both as regards the collection of the revenue and the performance of magisterial duties ; and, as a matter of unavoidable necessity, he is able to execute his functions solely by the instruc- tions and assistance of the native moonshee or interpreter, without whom he would be utterly incapable of doing any business at all, as the said moonshee is obliged to advise and guide him on every point and occasion, his own functions being confined to deciding according to the dictates of the moonshee, and putting his signature to the different papers prepared by the latter ; while, so well is it understood by the superior authority that the assistant is incap- able of self-guidance, that his mistakes, when considered important enough for visitation, are furnished by the collector with the dismissal of the moon&hee. The lamentable conse- quences of this ignorance, incapacity and negligence, on the part of each assistant collector, to some 150,000 of the native population, in the delay and denial of justice, and in the com- mission of injustice and oppression, are too numerous for detail by your Petitioners, and will be readily apprehended by the wisdom of your Right honourable House. 113. That the inefficiency and evils of this system would be most materially remedied, if the educated and trained natives, now acting as proxies in the performance of the functions nominally assigned to these young and incompetent civilians, were placed, under their own personal responsibility, according to their fitness and qualifications, in all the subordinate blanches of the revenue and judicial lines ; and that very many are sufficiently qualified is proved from the facts, that they already perform the duties of such situations in the revenue department; and that in the judicial department, according to the trust reposed in them, they have been found, to say the least, fully equal to their superior European officers, as evidenced in the public testimony borne to their worth and ability by Sir Erskine Perry, late Chief Justice of Bombay, in his address at the Elphinstone Institution in the month of February, in the present year, in the following language : " All the civil business in the Com- pany's courts is conducted, generally speaking, by native judges ; they are what the French would call judges of the First Instance, and from their decisions appeals lie to the European judges, from whose judgments again an appeal lies to the Sudr Adawlut. It naturally fol- lows that on these latter appeals a close comparison is made between the decision of the native and European functionary; and I learn from the judges of the Sudr Adawlut that it was publicly stated in open court by the two leading members of the Bombay bar, that, with a few distinguished exceptions, the decisions of the native judges were in every respect superior to those of the Europeans." 114. That the statistics of judicial business conducted in the Bengal Presidency, and printed for public information, also show that in the quantity and quality of the work per- formed the natives are on a par with the Europeans, and, could the statistics of Madras be come at by your Petitioners, they feel confident that the case would be the same ; but, not being able to obtain access to these documents, they will quote the opinion of Mr. John Shepherd, Chairman of the honourable Court of Directors, delivered in a speech to the stu- dents at Haileybury, on the 16th of December, last year, as to the general capacity and competency of the natives : " Let me call your attention to the exertions making by the natives of India in the present day. European science and European literature are now studied in India, not only with diligence, but with success. The examinations on those sub- jects passed by native students show little, if any, inferiority in comparison with Europeans. They have become competitors on our own field of action, and on ground hitherto untrodden by them, and unless you sustain the race with additional zeal and energy, they may pass you. Should this occur— should the natives of India surpass us in intellectual vigour and qualifi- cations, can we hope to remain long in possession of the powers and the privileges we now enjoy ? — Certainly not." 115. That on the basis of these facts, and of the twofold admission of Sir Erskine Perry and Mr. John Shepherd, your Petitioners would represent that the natives, having already equalled the Europeans in the race of intellectual attainments, deserve, on the admission of the Chairman of the Court of Directors, to be admitted to some portion, at least, of " the powers and privileges" enjoyed by the young men educated at Haileybury; and upon the (20.APP.) ^'^"^^ 48 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C- Power of the Bupreme Courts in- juriously controlled by the Acts of the Legislative Council. Nominal continua- tion of the present Charter. same achnission they desire the abolition of the college of Haileybuiy as a useless expense, and an unjust incubus on the finances of India; and that in its place the means of better education may be extended to this country, by the establishment of more complete and more useful institutions, including a fuller course of instruction, open to the natives of the soil, as well as to all who seek employment under Government, or to qualify themselves for the general pursuits of practical lile. 116. That Haileybury either imparts a better education than can or would be given in this country, or it does not. If it does not, and it certainly cannot impart the same knowledge of the vernacular languages, the manners and the customs of the people, then the money required for its support is mispent, and thrown away. If it does, then it is manifestly unjust to confine that better education to as mall number of privileged persons, while it is invidiously withheld from the many, equally desirous, equally capable, and equally entitled to its participation, as the necessary means to enable them to avail themselves of section 87 of the Charter Act, which enacts that no native, or natural-born subject of Her Majesty, residing in British India, shall, by reason only of his religion, place of birth, descent, colour, or any of them, be disabled from holding any place, office or employment under the Govern- ment of the country. And your Petitioners therefore pray, that, whatever institutions shall be deemed requisite to educate persons for accession to Government employ may be esta- blished and maintained in India, so that the money derived from the revenues of the country, by which they are supported, may be spent within it ; and that those who contribute to , the revenue may in this instance enjoy the benefit of its expenditure, together with that advancement in the public service which the Chairman of the Court has pronounced to be the equitable reward of individual merit and acquirements. 117. That your Petitioners would feel the present representation to your Right honour- able House essentially deficient, were they to omit all notice of the ineflScient condition in which Her Majesty's Supreme Courts of Judicature have been placed by a recent Act of the Legislative Council, styled " An Act for the Protection of Judicial Officers ;" by which it is enacted, that no action for wrong or injury shall lie in the supreme court against any person whatsoever exercising a judicial office in the country courts, for any judgment, decree or order of the said courts, nor against any person for any act done by or in virtue of the order of the siiid courts ; and that no judge, magistrate, justice of the peace, collector or other person actually judicially, shall be liable to be sued in any civil court, for any act done, or ordered to be done by him, in the discharge of his judicial duty, whether or not within the limits of his jurisdiction ; provided that he at the time, in good faith, beUeve him- self to have jurisdiction to do the act complained of. 118. That your Petitioners have always understood that the establishment of Crown courts was intended the more effijctually to secure the administration of justice, by checking the irregularities of frequent occurrence in the courts of the Company — an end that was attained so long as the misdoings of the Company's judges were amenable to the supreme courts of judicature at each Presidency ; but this Legislative Act, by depriving those courts of the power entrusted to them by the Crown, operates as an encouragement and reward to malpractices and oppression, which are becoming numerous, especially in Bengal, since it passed into Indian law ; the only punishment for which, when the wrong-doing is too flagrantly notorious to be openly tolerated, is the removal of the delinquent to a more lucrative situation. 119. That your Petitioners, under these unjust and oppressive circumstances, solicit the protection of your Right honourable House in the revision of this Act of protection for judicial delinquents, and the restoration of their original power to the courts of the Crown ; as also that, for the better security of wise and impartial administration in the highest appellate court of the Company, one or other of Her Majesty's Judges may be President or Chief Judge in the court of Sudr Adawlut, in the room of a Company's servant, as is at present the case, in the person of the senior member of council. 120. That your Petitioners likewise pray for redress against another enactment of the legislative council, which vests in a single magistrate the powers, formerly shared by two oi; more to fine, imprison, and flagellate, at his discretion, as they consider the authority sum- marily to inflict these punishments is too great to be safely entrusted to one individual, especially as by the Protection Act all redress for injury or wrong inflicted is denied to the sufferer; but even if redress were attainable by instituting a suit in the Supreme Court, as wasi formerly the case, your Petitioners conceive that a check to tiie commission of evil is far preferable to the exaction of inadequate retribution alter the evil has been perpetrated. 121. That while your Petitioners extremely regret that, owing to want of sufficient time, and to the insufferable difficulty of obtaining access to official documents, they have been unable to exhibit so amply and definitely as they could desire, the vast number of major and minor grievances to which they are subject under the operation of the existing system of government, they earnestly entreat that those which they have thus imperfectly touched upon may meet with the patient consideration of your Right honourable House, as well as that the opportunity may be afforded of substantiating the facts they have submitted before an impartial commission of investigation and inquiry, assembled"^ in India, composed of persons both in and out of public employ, and of Europeans and natives conjointly, chosen partly in Europe and partly in this country, as the sole means by which the real state of these territories, and the true condition of their population can be elicited ; and that for the accomplishment of this object, the present Charter of the East India Company may be annually renewed till the investigation is completed. ' • 122. That COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 49 122. That, in conclusion, your Petitioners would respectfully suggest that, whether the Appendix, A. B.C. government of India be continued in the hands of the East India Company, or otherwise provided for, the new system, whatever it may be, shall be open to alteration'and improve- Periodical Discus- nient from time to time, as the w^ell-being of the country may require ; and that the working sion of Indian of its internal administration may undergo at stated intervals — if practicable, triennially, but •^'*"^' quinquennially at the latest — public inquiry and discussion in the Imperial Parliament, in order that the people of this vast and distant empire may have more frequent opportunities of representing whatever grievances they seek to have redressed, and that the local govern- ments may be stimulated to the diligent execution of their functions, under the influence of a constant and efficient supervision of their conduct by the higher authorities at home. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, shall ever pray. (signed) T. Ramatawmy M (illegible), Chairman. M. V. Shunmoogavalloo Moodr. D. Nagojee Row. Madras, &,c, &c. &c. 10th December 1852. PETITION, praying that in case of any Alteration being made in the Government of India, the Right of Choosing the Persons to compose such Body may be granted in such manner as may seem fit, amongst others, to the Holders resident in this Country of the Promissory Notes or Securities of the Govern- ment of India ; of Retired Servants of the Honourable East India Company, Merchants and others. To the Right honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled. The Humble Petition of the Undersigned, Retired Servants of the Honourable the East India Company, Merchants and others, Sheweth, That your Petitioners are severally holders of promissory notes of the East India Company, granted from time to time by successive Governments of India, on occasion of raising money on loan for its service. That your Petitioners have, for the most part, become possessed of such Government promissory notes during the course of a long residence in India, and while such residence has made your Petitioners practically acquainted with its affairs, and has given them a deep interest therein, your Petitioners show that the fact that they are creditors to a large amount of the Government of India, necessarily gives them a great stake in its financial prosperity and in its general wellbeing. That much the greater part of the proprietors of East India stock have never resided in India, and are, therefore, for the most part less acquainted with Indian affairs than your Petitioners; and inasmuch as by the last Charter Act the dividends on East India stock are made the first charge on the revenues of India, the proprietors of such stock have by reason thereof only a nominal interest in its government. That if it be the wisdom of Parliament to commit the Government of India to a body (more or less numerous) having the same or similar functions to those of the present Court of Directors of the East India Company, it is expedient that such body should be chosen by a constituency more extended in its character than the present proprietors of stock of the East India Compatiy, and having a real instead of a nominal stake in the welfare of India, and especially by a constituency more qualified than the present to judge of the qualifications of the candidates. That your Petitioners further believe that the granting to the holders of promissory notes of the Government of India the right of voting in the choice of Directors, will improve the value of the securities of the Indian Government, and will enable it to borrow money at a more easy rate. Your Petitioners therefore humbly pray your Right honourable House, that should it be deemed expedient in any future arrangements to be made for the Government of India that such Government should be vested wholly or partially in a body constituted like the present Court of Directors of the East India Company, the right of choosing the persons to compose such body may be granted, in such manner as to the wisdom of Parliament may seem fit, amongst others, to the holders resident in this country of the promissory notes or secu- rities of the Government of India. (signed) John Morgan, Col. c. b., Madras Establishment. [And 25 others.] (20. App.) N PETITION 50 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B.C. PETITION, that the Period of Existence for any future Government of India be limited to Ten Years, of Members of the Bombay Association, and other Native Inhabitants of the Presidency of Bombay. To the Right honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of Great Britain and Ireland in Parliament assembled j The humble Petition of the Members of the Bombay Association, and other N ative Inhabitants of the Presidency of Bombay. Showeth, That the nature, constitution, and practical working of the Indian Government being now under the consideration of Parliament, your Petitioners beg respectfully to lay before your Honourable House the views which your Petitioners have formed with respect to the existing system of government, and some of the improvements of which it is susceptible. 2. Your Petitioners are fully sensible of, and are glad to acknowledge, the many blessings they enjoy under the British rule; but these they attribute to the British character rather than to the plan of government which it has hitherto been deemed expedient to provide for India, and which, being the result of circumstances and not of design, is but little suited to the present state of the country, and to the fair demands of the people of India. 3. Even the 3d & 4th Will. 4, c. 85, under which India is now governed, intituled, " An Act for effecting an Arrangement with the East India Company, and for the better " Government of His Majesty's Indian Territories, till the 30th day of April 1854," was confessedly a concession of principles, in order thereby to effect the final settlement of com- plicated questions of property, and to obtain the relinquishment, by the East India Company, of certain exclusive rights of trading secured by Royal Charter ; and the correspondence between the Board of Control and the Directors of the East India Company, contained in the 17th volume of the " Papers " (printed in 1833 by order of the Court of Directors) " respecting the negotiation with His Majesty's Ministers on the subject of the East India " Company's Charter," clearly establishes that it was fully understood at that time on both sides that the nature of the arrangements for the future government of India was to remain an open question. 4. The formation, therefore, of a good system of government for the millions of peaceful and loyal British Indian subjects, being now for the first time freed from all antecedent difficulties connected with the acquisitions, rights and position of the East India Company, and resolving itself, as it now does, simply into a question, how can India best be governed? your Petitioners believe that it will be found easy by your honourable House to devise a constitution for India, which, while it shall contain all the good elements of the existing system, shall be less cumbersome, less exclusive, less secret, more directly responsible, and infinitely more efficient and more acceptable to the governed. 5. Your Petitioners need not point out to your honourable House the nature of the Home Government under the present arrangement; but whilst in theory, and dcubtless to a very great extent in practice, it consists of a Minister of the Crown, aided by a Court of twenty- four persons, many, though not all, of whom have passed through an Indian career, yet, according to very high authority, the views of the Court of Directors can be put aside by the Minister at pleasure, and the former be forced, in their own names, and as their own act, to issue orders to the local Government to which they are entirely opposed. 6. The Right honourable the Earl of Ellenborough, in the evidence recently given by him before a Committee appointed by the late Parliament to inquire into East Indian affairs, is represented to have stated that he did not know by whom India was in general governed ; that it seemed to be so in general by a parcel of clever cleiks ; that when he', Lord Ellen- borough, was chairman, he governed the country himself, and on his own responsibility ; qnd that he did not think of taking counsel with his brother Ministers, or advising with any member of the Court of Direct ors as to the course to be pursued. The following question was put to Mr. Courtenay, Secretary to the Board of Control from 1812 to 1830, by the Select Committee appointed by Parliament in 1832 : — " Has the existence of these co-ordinate authorities, in their several relations to each " other, tended, in your opinion, to promote the despatch of pubhc business, or otherwise?" His answer was, "To retard it in a most extraordinary degree ; and, in retarding it, to " make the whole more unsatisfactory. The length of time that elapses between an " occurrence in India which is the subject of a despatch, and the receipt in India of the " opinions of the home authorities thereupon, is necessarily very considerable under any " circumstances.; some not inconsiderable time must be taken up in England in preparing " an COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 51 " an answer to the despatches ; but the time is increased in an immense proportion by the Appendix, A. B. C. " necessity of every despatch going through the two establishments, being in many cases " the subject of lengthened controversy between them," The inutility and inefficiency of two such clashing authorities as the Court of Directors and the Board of Control, are thus described by Mill in his " History of India :" — " If the whole power of Government is necessary for the, Board of Control, what use it " there for another governing body, without powers ? This is to have two governing bodies, " the one real, the other only in show. Of this species of duplication, the effect is to lessen " the chances for good government, increase the chance for bad ; to weaken all the motives " for application, honesty and zeal in the body vested with power, and to furnish it with an " ample screen, behind which its love of ease, power, lucre and vengeance maybe gratified " more safely at the expense of its trust." 7. It is, njioreover, commonly asserted and believed that some of the most important events which have occurred during the existing Government of India, attended with an enormous drain on tli6 revenues of the country, have been ordered by the Board of Control, in oppo- sition to the express wishes of the Court of Directors. 8. Your Petitioners therefore submit that an Indian Council, not placed under a Minister of the Crown, but of which the latter should form the President, and be directly responsible to Parliament, would form a more simple, eflScient and responsible Home Government than that now existing. 9. Whether the members of this Board should consist of 12 or 24 persons, by what title they should be designated, how many of them should be nominated by the Crown, and how many elected, and by whom elected, how they should be remunerated, and how and when displaced, are details on which it is quite unnecessary for your Petitioners to offer an opinion to your Honourable House, beyond this, that your Petitioners would suggest that the remu- neration attached to a seat at -the Board should be such as to secure the services of the most able men of the day ; and that, with the exception of the Minister of the Crown, a previous residence in India should be an indispensable qualification for oflSce. 10. Your Petitioners would further suggest, that the elective body should be composed of persons having a real and substantial interest in the good government of the country. 11. With reference to the local Governments, your Petitioners conceive that they are con- ducted, under the existing system, with a secrecy which, however justifiable and necessary in the early days of the British rule, is not at all called for in the present day ; and, on the contrary, is most injurious to the character and best interests of the Government itself, and most unsatisfactory to the governed. 12. Your Petitioners would also point out that the efiiciency of the local Governments of Madras and Bombay, under the existing law, is very much impaired, and the despatch of public business considerably retarded, by the necessity for continual reference to the Supreme Government at Calcutta, for its sanction for the most trifling matters ; and changes recommended by the local Government, and supported by the authority of its experience, are frequently rejected by the supreme power, with no local knowledge to guide its decisions. 13. That this would be the effect of centralizing all legislative and so much executive power in the Governor-(Teneral of India in Council, was foreseen and expressed by the East India Company in a Petition presented by them to your Honourable House in the course of the discussions on the present Charter Act. Their words are as follows : " Your " Petitioners further humbly represent, that the said Bill proposes to effect a serious change '* in the constitution of the local Governments in India, which, in the judgment of your " Petitioners, will, if adopted, place an excessive power in the hands of the Governor- " General, and prejudicially diminish the power and influence of the Governments of Madras " and Bombay." The experience of the last 18 years has completely verified the truth of the above prediction. 14. Your Petitioners submit that the cost of administration in India is unnecessarily great and considerable reductions might be made, without the shghtest detriment or injury to anv one, save the patrons or expectants of office, by abolishing sinecure offices, and retrenching the exorbitant salaries of many highly-paid offices, whose duties are so trifling, or involve, comparatively, so little labour or responsibility, that they might with advantage be amalgamated with other offices, or remunerated in a manner commensurate with the nature of the duties to be performed. 15 Your Petitioners respectfully submit that the time has arrived when the Natives of India are entitled to a much larger share than they have hitherto had in the administration of the afiairs of their country, and that the councils of the local Governments should, in mat ers of general policy and legislation, be opened, so as to admit of respectable and intelligent natives taking a part in the discussion of matters of general mterest to the country, as sug- gested by Lords EUenborough, Elphinstone and others. 16. It is often alleged that the Natives are incompetent to fill high situations. Similar objections were raised by the Court of Directors, in 1832, to the appomtment of Natives to the offices of Justice of the Peace and Grand Juror, when a Bill relative to such appoint- ments was proposed to be submitted to Parliament by tlie Right honourable Charles (20. App.) '^^ ' 52 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. Grant, m. p., then President of the Board of Control, and now Lord Glenelg, That eminent statesman, in his correspondence with the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the East India Company on the above subject, bears the following testimony to the quahfications of Natives for service under Government, in a letter dated 6 March 1832 : — " In the pursuits " of private life, as well as in those branches of the public service in which they have " hitherto been permitted to engage, the Natives of India have evinced no deficiency, either " in habits of application to business, or in the skill and acuteness required for its succeisa- " full prosecution ; nor can it be maintained that they are insensible to that stimulus to " exertion which arises from the hope of honourable distinction. Those Natives who are " entrusted with the administration of justice, and the collection of the revenue in the interior, " qualify themselves for those duties by studying the Regulations of the Government under " which they are to act. Why, then, should we anticipate a different result in the case " now under consideration ? " The result of the appointment of Natives to the distinction of Justices of the Peace and Grand Jurors, your Petitioners believe they may safely assert, has fully realised the expectations which seem to have been formed regarding the measure by the distinguished statesman from whom it emanated ; they have honourably filled their ofiices, and performed their duties, equally with their European colleagues, with much advantage to the public interests concerned. Sir Erskine Perry also, the Chief Justice of Bombay, when presiding in his capacity of President of the Board of Education, at a public meeting held in the Town-hall of Bombay, on the 9th February 1852, expressed himself as follows, in respect to the administration of justice, as exercised by Native functionaries in the interior of this Presidency : — " All the civil business in the Company's Courts is in the first stage conducted, speaking " generally, by Native judges ; they are what the French would call Judges of the First " Instance, and from their decisions appeals lie to European judges, from whose judgments, " again, an appeal lies to the Sudder Adawlut. It naturally follows that on these latter " appeals a close comparison is made between the decisions of the Native and European " functionary. Now I learn from the Judges of the Sudder ""Adawlut that it was publicly " stated in open Court by two leading members of the Bombay Bar, that, with a few distin- " guished exceptions, the decisions of the Native judges were in every respect superior to " those of the Europeans." The above testimony of distinguished individuals, to which might be added many others of a similar character, will, your Petitioners hope, remove any impression which may exist as to the sometimes alleged unfitness of Natives for situations of trust and responsibility in the service of the State. Experience hitherto has shown a result directly opposed to such impressions : and in the present advanced state of the Native mind, compared with what it was when the last discussions on the Charter of the East India Company took place 20 years ago, it is not too much to presume, judging from the past, that the further advancement of Natives to more important offices will be followed by equally favourable results. A Native judge in the Small Cause Court at Calcutta, and a Native magistrate in the same city, are admitted on all hands to conduct their duties most satisfactorily ; but no such appointments have been made in this Presidency, nor, as your Petitioners believe, in Madras. 17. Your Petitioners would further observe, that the 87th section of the 4th & 5th Will. 4, c. 85, which declares that no Native of India or natural-born subject therein, shall be dis- qualified from office by reason only of religion, place of birth, descent, or colour, has hitherto remained nearly a dead letter ; and it is for your Honourable House to make due provisions for the more extensive employment of Natives of India suitably qualified for the Govern- ment service, and for their elevation to the highest offices of the State. 18. With respect to the administration of the Government itself, it is, perhaps, un- necessary to remind your Honourable House, that every civil post, of any value or im- portance, throughout the territories, is filled by a privileged and exclusive service, called the Covenanted Civil Service of the East India Company. 19. Your Petitioners admit that the 103d and five following sections of the 4th & 5th Will. 4, c. 85, contain the outline of provisions adapted to secure an honourable, and, on the whole, efficient body of servants for very many offices under the Indian Government; but although the students of Haileybury College are, by virtue of the above clauses, to undergo examination, the incompetent, as well as the competent, have equally the Parliamentary right " to supply the vacancies in the civil establishments in India." 20. It must be apparent to your honourable House, that the education given at Hailey- bury College does not, and cannot, qualify a young man to administer the law, civil and criminal, Hindoo and Mahomedan, to a whole district; and yet no provisions exist, either in England or in India, for carrying on the education of the civil servants intended for judicial employment, nor are they required or expected to prepare themselves for the judicial office by any previous study. 21. Once admitted to the service, they rise by seniority, whether industrious or idle, com- petent or incompetent ; and they are transferred from one department to another, without due consideration of their aptitude or previous experience; the Judicial sends its members to the Revenue department, and the Revenue to the Judicial. Unlike the officers of the army, they are practically exempt, except in cases of extreme delinquency, from all fear of punishment for incompetence or misconduct. Regarded as the privileged governors of the country, COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 53 country, and claiming all the important offices under Government as of right, the gravest Appendix, A. B.C. errors are only visited with expostulation, or at most with a removal from one office to another, whilst the local Governments are debarred from avaihng themselves of European and natire talent at hand, simply because the possessor is not one of the privileged order. 22. So long as the present exclusive system of employ shall continue to exist, it is manifest that it will be impossible to secure the greatest efficiency in any one department of the Government; whilst the courts ofjustice will,as a general rule, be lianded over, as at present, to those who have shown themselves the least qualified to collect the revenue of the State. The result of placing judicial power in the hands of those not trained, or by nature qualified to exercise it, is, that in order, as far as possible, to prevent injustice, it is necessary to allow a number of appeals and reviews; and thus, under the system of Mofussil judicature, a final decision in civil suits is often not obtained under ten years, and rarely before three years. Then the litigation in the Company's courts, where a large amount is in dispute, is of the most expensive character, owing to the heavy stamps to which all law proceedings in the Mofussil are subject; and thus, from delay, expense and inefficient judges, the adminis- tration of the law in the Company's Courts is altogether of a most unsatisfactory nature ; and no department of the Indian Government calls more loudly for reform. 23. Your Petitioners would respectfully suggest, that if a Parliamentary service having a right to exclusive civil employ is to be retained for India, its sphere of office should be confined to the\ discharge of strictly revenue, financial and political duties; and that the system of seniority and right of promotion, involving, as now in operation, frequent and most inconvenient transfers of officers from one d- partment to another, should be abolished, and that public merit should be the only avowed principle of promotion ; and further, that a high standard of qualification should be exacted from all who are appointed to judicial offices in India. 24. Your Petitioners would moreover add, that the Indian Civil Service now costs the Government 3,500,OOOZ. sterling, each officer receiving on an average 1,760/. per annum, from youths just arrived in India to the highest grade. These salaries are adequate to com- mand the very highest poHtical, financial and judicial talent, and impose on the Government the moral obligation of providing the best servants for the Indian Government. 25. But your Petitioners submit that the salaries paid to the Indian Civil servants are excessive. Your Petitioners see it stated befoie the Select Committo^e of the House of Commons, that the public service is most ably conducted by members of the Native Uncove- nanted Branch, at a mere fraction of the charge of Covenanted servants ; that a much greater number of Natives ought to be employed than at present, the general conduct of Native officials being most exemplary. 2(5. There are numerous offices under the Government, the Post-office for example, in which the head of the department must necessarily be to a great extent inefficient, from want of training for the discharge of his duties, and dependent therefore on his subor- dinates. They are held (or some transient period, so that there is little inducement for the most conscientious men to study the duties of the office. Within the last ten years there have betn eight different Postmasters at this Presidency, drawing between 2.000/. and 3,000/. a year, while t le work has been chiefly pertbrmed by a deputy receiving 700/. per annum ; and the Post office as a system is believed to be infinitely below what it would have been had a qualified person been sent out from England to take permanent charge of it. 27. Your Petitioners, whilst on this subject, cannot forbear calling the attention of your Honourable House to the opinions of the East Indian Company on the best means of providing good servants for the Indian Government, as expressed in the Petiti n piesented by them'\o Parliament in 1833, and which, your Petitioners submit, deserve great con- sideration: > Tl/T- ■ " Throughout the correspondence which has passed with His Majesty s Ministers, your " Petitioners, have declared upon this poiijt tliat the arrangement wiiich shall not effectually " provide the means of giving Gevernment servants to the Indian Enipire, is that which shall " assuredly meet the views of the Court, whatever iis effects may be on their patronage : and " it is because your Petitioners are deliberately convinced that efficiency will be more likely " to be obtained in a general system of educ;ition, brought to the standaid of a high test " of examination, than in any exclusive system, that the Court confidently ask your Honoui- " able House to abolish the College." 28 Your Petitioners now btg to represent to your Honourable House, the extreme defi- ciency of the means of internal communication in this Presidency; tnat this want discourages increase of production, by shutting out the producers from any remunenrtive market, and prevents, in periods of distress, the scarcity of one uistnct bemg mitigated by the plenty in anot .er. Instances are recorded wherein the supplies designed to relieve famine in a district were, in the course of transit, consumed b fore they n ached their dest.na- (20. A pp.) 54 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. Memorial addressed by the leading Merchants and Bankers of Bombay to the present Governor-General of India in 1860. " So miserably inadequate are the means of communication in the interior, that many " valuable articles of produce are, for want of carriage and a market, often left to perish " in the field, wliile the cost of those virhich do find their way to this port is enormously " enhanced, to the extent, sometimes, of 200 per cent. ; considerable quantities never " reach their destination at all, and the quality of the remainder is almost universally " deteriorated." Several able letters, addressed to the Editor of the London " Times," in November and December 1850, and again in September 1851, by a distinguished Engineer Officer of the Bombay army, clearly point out the deficiency of the present means of communication in the interior, and particularly in Gujarat, and to which your Petitioners would solicit the earnest consideration of your Honourable House. 29. Your Petitioners suggest that five per cent, of the amount of land revenue should be annually expended in the district whence it is levied, in making roads, bridges, tanks and other works of similar utility. All such expenditure would be speedily repaid in the increased revenue arising from the impulse given to production, by opening up new markets for the sale of produce. Your Petitioners observe that this most important recommendation has been made repeatedly to the local and Supreme Governments here by some of its most eminent and experienced officers, but they have learnt, with deep regret, that it has been as frequently set aside by the Home Authorities, 30. Your Petitioners would further observe, that the Government grant of 12,500Z. for educational purposes, is quite inadequate to the wants of this Presidency, with its popula- tion of upwards of 10,000,000, and yielding a net land revenue of 1,028,285 /. Your Petitioners beg to draw the special attention of your Honourable House to this subject, and believe that all the reforms and all the improvements sought for, or in the power of your Honourable House to make, are but secondary in importance compared with the necessity of introducing a complete system of education for the masses of the people. That such expenditure would eventually increase the revenues of the country, both by teaching the people new and better modes of production, as v?ell as habits of economy and prudence, cannot be doubted ; and your Petitioners would suggest the propriety of establishing in each Presidency an University, after Mr. Cameron's plan, for the purpose of qualifying persons to practise in the various professions, and rendering them eligible for Government employment. 31. Your Petitioners, therefore, humbly pray your Honourable House to embody in any measure of legislation which may come before you for the future government of India, the principles hereinbefore set forth ; and that your Honourable House will not rest content, but adjourn the final settlement of the plan of the Indian Government until all available information from trnstworthy, competent, and disinterested sources has been laid before you; and your Petitioners venture to hope that your Honourable House will limit the period of existence for any future Government of India to. 10 years, in order that the inte- rests of so many millions of British subjects may be more frequently brought under the consideration of Parliament. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. Bombay, (Signed by 106 Natives.) 28th October 1852. COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 55 PETITION, praying for Inquiry into the Renewal of the Act for the Govern- -^PPendij^A. B. C. MENT of Indian Territories, and for Ameliorations and Reforms of British and other Christian Inhabitants of Calcutta, and the neighbouring Parts, in the Lower Provinces of Bengal. To the Right honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled. The humble Petition of the undersigned British and other Christian Inhabitants of Calcutta, and the neighbouring Parts, in the Lower Provinces of Bengal ; Humbly showeth, 1. That your Petitioners feel themselves called upon, by the approaching period for the renewal of arrangements for the future government of India, to convey to your Honourable House some expression of their opinion with reference to those arrangements. OBJECTS OF THE LAST CHARTER ACT NOT CARRIED OUT. That your Petitioners advert wiih satisfaction to the provisions of the last Charter Act, especially when read in connexion with the historical evidence of the intentions and objects of Parliament ; that reading the Charter Act by this light, a distinction palpably arises between those objects which were completely established by the Act of Parliament, such, for example, as the abolition of the trading powers of the East India Company, and those which, for any reason, were left to the good faith of the Government to realize. With respect to the latter class, your Petitioners beg to express very great disappointment, for although the Govern- ment was furnished by the Charter Act writh new powers and machinery to accomplish what then appeared, and whatever in future might appear desirable, many of the intentions of Parliament remain neglected : thus, for example, no means have been taken to form for India a properly qualified body of judges, or to open the judicial service to qualified persons, though the want was demonstrated by a large body of evidence before Committees of the Houses of ParHament. The criminal laws of the East India Company's courts, in their application to natives, were condemned fifteen years ago by the Indian Law Commission, which was appointed, under a direction in the Charter Act, to inquire into the state of the laws; but the criminal laws remain for the most part unchanged. In a spiiit generally deemed as impolitic as illiberal, the Government has repeatedly proposed to bring British people under these laws, though so declared unjust towards the natives who were accustomed to them. The want, in the East India Company's courts of law, adapted to the require- ments of trade and commerce is well known ; the English law could furnish an equitable commercial code; but English law is excluded from these courts, and no other rational system has been enjoined upon or adopted by them, although the Charter Act expressly directs the preparation of laws adapted to all classes of the public. The great want in the courts of the East India Company of a body of laws, both civil and criminal, for the East Indians, to whom as Christians the native laws were not justly applicable, was specially brought under the consideration of Parliament, and the jjeculiar hardship of the case drew forth the sympathy of several eminent men. Practical relief has been proposed to Govern- ment by the Indian Law Commission, under the name of a Lex Loci Act, but relief has not been given. Parliament abolished all disabilities for office or pubhc employment by reason of race creed, colour or origin ; but distinctions are maintained in administration between previously excluded classes and the privileged classes, which place the former in a state of official and social degradation. The state of the police is as bad as before the last Charter Apt, and it is no protection to the people : other instances might be given, and hence your Petitioners express their disappointment, and have again to bring these subjects, together with others, under the consideration of Parliament. STATE OF THE LAW AND COURTS; SUBJECT DIVIDED. 2. That your Petitioners first beg to bring under the consideration of your Honourable House the state of the law; and in connexion with this, the state of the courts of justice, as respects both their executive and judicial functions. On a moment's reflection the close connexion of these subjects is apparent : if a bad state of the law be supposed, it is im- possible to conclude otherwise than that ill eifects must result, though the judiciary body were meritorious ; and equally clear is it that good laws must in a degree fail, if the judges are deficient in knowledge, skill, honesty or other proper judiciary qualifications; and good (20. App.) '^""'^ 56 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT ADDcndix ABC. ^^"'^ ^^^ Sood judges together must always depend, in a consideriible degree, for practical "" ' ■ ' success on the character of the executive officers and establisliments ; the necessity therefore is apparent of keeping all these subjects in view together, or as parts of one whole. LAW OF THE SUPREME COURT. With respect to the law, it will be necessary to distinguish vyhat it is in Calcutta and the Supreme Court, from what it is in the country beyond, and courts of the East India Com- pany. In the Supreme Court, three different codes of law are established, English law for British subjects, and Hindoo and Mahometan law for Hindoos and Mahometans on civil matters ; but English criminal law for all classes, natives, British and foreigners, who are inhabitants of Calcutta ; and for nearly 80 years these difteient codes have been administered by this one court, generally with satisfaction to these different races, thereby establishing the important fact, that judjjes practically qualified in English law become qualified for the native system of law, to which they are orisrinally strangers, and presenting, as wiU heieafier appear, a striking contrast to the East India Company's judges ; and although it may be admitted that the Supreme Court has an extent of jurisdiction geographically inconvenient, the remark has no application to the law of the court ; but the blame rests with the Govern- ment, which has done nothing towards supplying other courts, or making the East India Company's courts competent to take part of the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court as respects British subjects. LAW OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S COURTS. That the law in the East India Company's courts is on matters of succession, inhe- ritance, marriage, caste, and religious usages and institutions, the Hindoo and Mahomelan law for Hindoos and Mahometans respectively, with the addition of a body of regulations and acts chiefly relating to procedure and revenue, and in which is prescribed this general rule as to all other matters, namely, that the courts shall decide according to justice, equity and good conscience, in cases not provided for by the said regulations and acts ; but the regulation which prescribe^ this rule is not accompanied by a code of equity, nor any maxims or principles, but has left it to the courts to work out a system of equitable juris- prudence, which, after 60 years, they have not done, nor bej^un to do ; and to the prefent day, the supplementary provision for equity remains a barren verbal rule, which may con- fidently be described as having no effect beyond that of giving the judges of all degrees and castes, Hindoos, Mahometans and English, a discretion which they are incapable of wisely exercising, and thereby rendering all rights and the result of all litigation in these courts extremely uncertain. The cases to which this remark applies are all cases on contracts of all kinds, including sale, hiring, partnership, and in short all business arising out of com- merce and dealing in which British people and interests are concerned. That the laws above mentioned are the only civil laws administered in the courts of the East India Com- pany, and thus it clearly appears that the civil law administered in those courts is most defective. PROCEDURE OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S COURTS. That the law of procedure is in as unsatisfactory a state as the other parts of the law. From repeated and numberless alterations, and the peculiar form of many of them, the code itself is obscure, confused, and of uncertain meaning. That by practice and construction it has acquired a highly technical character, as is evident from the printed decisions of the courts, and the very large proportion of cases on questions of form. In the courts of every degree, suits of all kinds, and all amounts (except where the revenue is directly or indirectly concerned), are conducted by means of written pleadings, consisting of a plaint, answei', replication and rejoinder, and no security is taken for truth in pleading. At each step time is necessarily given to the adverse party, and a decision may be followed by two, and in some cases by three appeals. The procedure, therefore, is slow and dilatory. That your Petitioners, having now experience of both systems, can confidently state that the refoimed procedure of English law is more simple and expeditious, and more conducive, by its greater variety of resources, to the ends of substantive justice. That the appeals (already alludeil to) are permitted to an extent unparalleled in any other system of law, on the ground avowedly of distrust of the courts. That formerly the petty courts of moonsiffs and sudder ameens were partially excepted from this system ; but by a recent Act it has been extended to them, and, consequently, the pettv dealer who may have to sue a poor ryot fur 5 s. must not onlv sue by a written petition or plaint, but may have his suit dismissed, after two months, for want of a replication ; and a decision, either for plaintiff or defendant, may be followed by two appeals; and thus it appears that the East India Company have no courts analogous to the Court of Small Causes in Calcutta, or to the County Courts in England, with a partial exception as above, where the revenue is sup- posed to be concerned. That evidence in all the courts is required to be taken in writing, which leads to the practice of its being taken by a native clerk often out of heating of the judge, who may be engaged in other business, and decides on the evidence thus taken on reading it, or its being read to him ; but the officers ure notorious for tampering with the evidence ; and those who COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 57 who are personally acquainted with the country very generally complain of abuses, and Appendix, A. B. C. condemn this mode of taking evidence. __ That, in connexion with this subject, the legal agency established in the courts should be mentioned, as aggravating all the faults of the system. It is carried on by means of persons called, according to their different branches of the business, mooktears (managers), vakeels (attorneys), and pleaders ; a body of men generally (in the Inferior Courts) belong- ing to the dregs of native society, who are notorious for the most wicked practices which can be used in their business, a pest to the courts, and a cause of the corruption of the people to whom they minister. STAMP DUTIES. That, to the evils already enumerated, your Petitioners have to add a heavy taxation on all law proceedings by means of the obligation of using stamped paper, which rises, in a series of duties, in all regular actions, from 2 s. to 200/. on plaints or petitions alone, and admits of no exceptions, even for the smallest debt or demand, and waylays the suitors at every subsequent step, and obliges the judge to stop his speech, or that of his pleader, with the question, "Where is your stamped paper? " and will not permit the reception of the evidence of a witness until after an application on stamped paper of 2,s. or 4s. each ; and, if the proof consists of a series of letters, imposes on each letter a stamp of 2 s. ; and an error in a stamp is often irremediable, and the constant cause of nonsuits and other failures of justice. That the stamp duties are still more vexatious and impolitic in criminal proceedings. That your Petitioners represent these details to show that the system is not less oppressive than that of the taxes on law abohshed in England at the united call of justice, humanity, and all general reasons. COURTS OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S NATIVE JUDGES. As respects the courts of the East India Company, the Civil Courts, having an original jurisdiction, differ so widely from those having only an appellate jurisdiction, that it is necessary to premise this distinction between them. 'I'hat before the last Chatter Act, the natives had been entirely removed from civil judica- ture (except as to debts of 5 I.), on account of their universal corruption. Siuce the last Charter Act, they have been restored to, and are almost in exclusive possession of all original jurisdiction. The judges having original jurisdiction are of three grades : (1.) Moon- siffs (dispensers of justice) ; (2.) Sudder Ameens (chief commissioners); and, (3.) Principal Sudder Ameens. 'I he jurisdiction of the first class extending to SO I., of the second to 100 /., and of the third to all amounts beyond ; and, in amount, many suits are not surpassed in the Courts of Equity or Law in Westminster Hall. The moonsiffs, sudder ameens and principal sudder ameens, in the Lower Provinces, consist of about 320 persons, of whom there are, at present, not more than one-fifteentli of Christian denomination. That the natives first appointed to those offices on the change of system were, for the most part, the officers (amiahs) of the existing courts, a body of persons notorious for corruption ; and, their salary being small, the practice of corruption for several years, if not to the present time, prevailed probably to nearly an equal extent, though in a different form, as in Mahometan times, when the salary was a mere honorarium or letaining fee, and the real reward was in the wages of corruption. It is notorious that, afrer holding office for a few years, large estates or fortunes were amassed by many of them, and others lived in the display of affluence. That the salaries of these classes, though slightly raised, are in no fair proportion to the importance of their offices and jurisdiction. The moonsiffs receive 120 I., and a few 180 /. per annum ; the sudder ameens 250 Z. per annum, and the principal sudder ameens 480/., and a few, after long service, 700 I. |>er annum. Such salaries indicate a low appreciation on the part of the Government of the judicial office, as well as of the personal status of the officials themselves ; and in fact they do generally belong to an inferior grade pf native society, and are without any proper legal knowledge or professional training, for it is impos- sible to regard as such the little knowledge requisite to pass an examination. That your Petitioners are fully sensible of the difficulty of establishing charges of cornip- tion, and they make them with reluctance; but the proof, recognition or acknowledgment of the fact must precede an attempt to remove or correct the evil. As some corroboration, your Petitioners beg to state, that corrupt practices were charged against these courts in a memorial to the Bengal Government within the last eighteen months, which was signed by a very respectable body of British and other Christian inhabitants of different parts of the Lower Provinces, including some Calcutta firms largely interested in silk and indigo, and other mofussil concerns ; that the means taken by the Government to ascertain the truth of the complaint were, as your Petitioners are informed, the requisition of a report on the subject from the civil service judges, and the conclusion was, not the exculpation of the courts, but a general report that they were improved. r t,- , ■ , That the Government has ever lent an unwilling ear to representations of this kind, and has taken utterly futile means of effecting a reformation. Small remedies of a topical kind manifestly must fail. One of the latest may be cited as an example of the spirit in which the Government has dealt with the enormous evil. As an inducement to merit, and to coun- teract the force of temptation. Government has within a few years made it a rule to fill up the hio her orade of principal sudder ameen from the lower grades by promotion. The bright motive and°reward thus held out to purity is just one chance for one out of from six to eight (20. App.) ^ P"'"'°^'' 58 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. €• persons, and of promotion from 180/. or 300/. to 480/. per annum, and which chance can occur only once in 10 or 12 years, there being but one principal sudder ameen in each zillah, and from six to eight moonsiffs and one sudder ameen ; and it may be added, that if this could possibly avail in a small degree, it has a counterbalancing evil, namely, of con- fining the important office of principal sudder ameen to the class of persons who can accept, in the first instance, a very inferior office, and a salary of 120/, per annum, and, presumably, therefore, the rule of promotion excludes all persons qualified by legal and general education. It is obvious, also, that it leaves the principal sudder ameen without any inducement, although the higher office of a judge of appeal might have been opened to this class, and, presumably, it is better qualified for dn appellate jurisdiction than the class of civil service judges, who, under existing arrangements, have no original jurisdiction, and whose training and experience do not qualify them to correct the inferior civil tribunals. That your Petitioners deprecate being supposed to impute to natives any want of capacity to acquire the proper legal qualifications, or to rise to a proper standard of morals, but they describe what they believe to be the state of facts at present. CIVIL SERVICE JUDGES. The appellate jurisdiction in civil cases has next to be described. It is almost exclusively exercised by the civil service judges, of whom there is one in each zillah, who is chiefly a criminal judge (called, in the latter capacity, sessions judge), but also a civil judge for appeals up to 500 /., beyond which sum the appeal lies to a court (the Sudder Dewanny Adawlut), composed of five civil service judges. These five judges tosether receive in salary a sum exceeding the aggregate salaries of all the moonsifFs in the Lower Provinces ; and,' added to the zillah judges, the entire body consists of 37 persons, who received 120,000 /. in the year in which the salaries of moonsiffs, sudder ameens and principal sudder ameens amounted only to 55,000 /., a striking contrast of the care with which this class has been guarded at one of the avenues of temptation ; and your Petitioners readily admitthoir general abstinence from the practice of corruption of every kind, hut more than this negative praise cannot be awarded to them; and your Petitioners confidently represent, that their adminis- tration of justice is the subject of universal complaint and dissatisfaction, and which are founded, as your Petitioners believe, on experience of their want of proper qualifications, and the bad quality of their decisions. And although it would be impossible to justify this opinion in detail in a petition, the few following facts may be mentioned ; namely, that they come to India and are appointed to the judicial office without professional qualifications; that, for 60 years, they have been in exclusive possession of ihe whole, or some important part, of the administration of justice, and yet have furnished the inferior courts with no body of general rules or principles ; that, though required to follow equity, they have built up no system of equitable jurisprudence, but the inferior courts still possess only the barren verbal rule expressed in the regulations ; that, by " Circular Orders" and " Constructions" the sudder courts have prescribed rules, and legislated somewhat as the Emperors did by their rescripts, but these " Orders" and " Constructions" are among the worst parts of the law, and have increased its uncertainty and the difficulties of all the inferior judges; and lastly, that for somS years the decisions of these courts have been printed, and form a considerable body, but they are obscure and uninstructive : by all these circumstances (and others might be adduced) may be proved, that the civil service judges want the proper qualifications for judges, and the public dissatisfaction be justified. OPINIONS OF BRITISH INHABITANTS. That, in consequence of this state of the law in the courts of the East India Companv, and of the courts themselves, the British inhabitants offered a strong opposition to the Act passed in 1836, and which has been followed by others, for bringing them under the civil juris- diction of those courts ; but, to reconcile them to it, the public was assured by the organs of Government that the law and courts would be improved, if from no other Ciiuse, from the necessity of conforming to a more certain and higher standard of right, in order to satisfy British suitors ; but this assurance has not been fulfilled, and the bad state of the law and the courts of the East India Company forms one great disadvantage, against which British enterprise and character has to struggle in India. THE CRIMINAL LAW. That the criminal law of the Ea«t India Company's courts is fundamentally Mahometan, as much a foreign law, therefore, as the English in relation to the Hindu part, which is a great majority of the population: that, with respect to Hindus, and others not of the Ma- hometan faith, the opinion (futwa) of the Mahometan law officer, who is in the nature of an assessor attached to every criminal court, may be dispensed with, and some difference may, on the requisition of the parties accused, be made in the mode of trial of persons not Ma- hometans, all which are equitable modifications of pure Mahometan law, so far as they go; but they leave the foundations of the system Mahometan ; and the chief effect, as your Petitioners believe, of permitting the judge to decide without the Mahometan law officer is not to introduce a different system of law, but to place persons accused (when they avail of the privilege) more at the judge's discretion: that such a stale of the criminal law would he intolerable . COMMITTEE ON THJB GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 59 intolerable to British people, and therefore they have always resisted, and still protest against. Appendix, A. B. C. its extension to them ; that, accordingly, your Petitioners pray your Honourable House to take their case in this respect into special consideration, and to provide that English criminal law, divested in a great degree as it is now of technicahties of procedure, shall be universally administered to them, and to all persons of Christian denomination or faith, whether British, East Indian or foreign, with such modifications only of procedure as may be passed by the Governor-general of India in Council, with the previous assentof Her Majesty in Council. THE POLICE. That the police of the Lower Provinces totally fails as respects its proper purposes, the prevention of crime, apprehension of offenders, and protection of life and property ; but it is become an engine of oppression, and a great cause of the corruption of the people. That your Petitioners desire to state a few facts in connexion with these propositions. The Lower Provinces, concerning whose police your Petitioners are now speaking, are divided into 32 counties (zillahs), and contain an estimated population of 30,000,000, and comprise an area larger than France. The proper police force in these counties consist of superintendents (darogahs) ; Serjeants (jemadars), and constables (burkendauzes), amounting in the whole to 10,000 or 11,000 persons, and to these have to be added the village watchmen, who are paid by the villages, and not by the Government, and are so rarely known to prevent a theft or other crime, or to apprehend the criminal, that theymustcount for very little iu an honest appreciation of the general system. That these numbers are insuflScient with reference to the existing state of the population of Bengal, and that iu the present state of crime, an exclusively native police, however numerous, can hardly be made sufficient. That a native police, as this exclusively is, requires constant and close superintendence, and power of superintendence is given to ihe magistrates, but, from a variety of causes, no effective siipeiintendence is or can be exercised by them ; among these causes may be men- tioned : (i.) The paucity of magistrates, for which no remedy appears practicable so long as the exclusive privileges of the civil service are upheld ; (2.) The size of their districts ; there is one magistrate and an " assistant," or pupil of the civil service, and a deputy magistrate to a zillah, the zillah being, perhaps, as large as Yorkshire, or of an area of 6,000 or 7,000 square miles, and containing a population of 1,000,000 ; and, (3.) The judicial duties of the magistrate, which are alone sufficient to occupy all his time, are, by their nature, incompa- tible with the activity and locomotion required for superiniendence. It may, therefore, safely be affirmed, that effective superintendence over the native police there is and can be none, under the existing institutions. That your Petitioners will make a brief statement in illustration of the practical bearing of the existing system on the condition of the people : that in case of the apprehension of an offender, and in order to prosecute him, it is necessary for the injured party, and his witnesses, to go before the magistrate, but this may be a journey of from 15 or less, to 50 miles or more, in consequence of the exient of his district, and when arrived at the magistrate's office, he may be detained days or weeks, fiom a variety of causes ; that, in fact, a magistrate's compound in the Lower Provinces often presents the spectacle of hundi'eds of persons thus kept in detention for weeks, and if the offence is of a grave character, or beyond the juris- diction of a magistrate, he and his witnesses may be required to take a second journey of the same distance to the sessions, and be there detained days or weeks waiting for a trial at the sessions; also hundreds of persons are constantly detained at great distances from their homes. That, to avoid these inconveniences, the population render little or no aid to the police for the enforcement of the law, but, on the contrary, they are generally averse to do so, and hence has arisen a practice which is a great reproach to the police system, namely, that witnesses generally, and prosecutors often, are made prisoners, kept under arrest, and sent to the magistrate, and afterwards to the sessions, in actual custody. That from this state of the law and police result the following among other evils: persons robbed deny the fiiCt of a robbery, or if they complain, the persons who could be witnesses deny all knowledge of it, the imuiediate interests of these classes being arrayed, by reason of the state of the law and jurisdictions, against the objects of law and justice. Often, under these circumstances, the native policeman, to do his duty, employs the means of terror ; and torture is believed to be extensively practised on persons under accusation, and the injured party, for not assisting him, becomes an offender. All the evil passions are thus brought into play, and ingenuities of all kinds, both by people and police, are resorted to. Another result is the constant device of proving a true case by witnesses who know nothing about the matter. Justice is supposed thus to be satisfied, but convenient perjury becomes famihar, and perj^ury loses its critiiinal character among the people. Thus, and in a thousand otiier ways, the law and police operate to corrupt the people, and spread coriuption. Moreover, the very circumstances which repel the honest attract those who have revenge to gratify, rivals to injure, enemies to destroy, and for these and other dishonest purposes the police and criminal courts' are resorted to ; and police and law, under the present system, are terrible evils. That a iurther aggravation of evil results from some powers possessed by the native police, which practically a°re magisterial, such as the power of receiving confessions, and in all cases of taking (though not on oath) the deposition of witnesses, which powers are exercised by the Serjeant (jemadar) in the absence of his immediate superior (the darogah) and thereby practically the course of criminal justice takes its direction from them, and thus the police control the magistrate's functions, instead of his supenntendmg and controlhng the police. (20.APP.) ™^ 60 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix. A. B.C. THE CIVIL SERVICE. That among; the subjects on which evidence'was taken by the Committee of the House of Commons previously to the renewal of the last Charter Act, one was the education given at Haileybury, and the means existing in India of completing it before the cadets of the Civil Service chiefly appointed from that institution entered on their public duties. That a deficiency of qualifications was proved, and a plan was adopted by Parliament and embodied in the Charter Act which preserved Haileybury, but according to which only one-fourth of the candidates in the Haileybury college were to receive appointments, which plan would probably, as intended, have secured the following objects; (1.) The suppression of what was proved to be an abuse, of making every nomination of Haileybury virtually an appointment to a highly privileged and important branch of the Indian service : (2.) The exclusion of the unworthy, for which, as proved particiilarly by the learned professor, Mr. Empson, some pro- vision was necessary ; and, (3.) Competition among the candidates under such conditions as should secure the eventual preference to merit, and raise the average and standard of it. That this plan incidentally reduced the value of the nominations to Haileybury, and before it could come into practical operation it was repealed by statute, and with it all security ceased for the desired objects, no other plan having been substituted. That the qualifications of the cadets of the Civil Service are no better in the present day, and there is reason to believe, from historical evidence, that the service produces a smaller proportion of distinguished excellence than formerly ; that in every kind of office superiority is given indiscriminately to this portion of the service, and virtually it has the unity, strength and narrow interests of a close corporation, though not legally constituted as such ; for example, two, and some- times three members of the Supreme Council, all (he secretaries and under secretaries of the Supreme and Local Governments in the civil departments, all the members of all the civil boards, and their secretaries and under secretaries, all the judges of appeal, both in the metropolitan zillah courts, all the commissioners of revenue, all the collectors, all the magistrates, and (everywhere) all the heads of office, as at the Treasury and in various mis- cellaneous offices, are exclusively of the so-called Civil Service. That this monopoly of high office is highly prejudicial to the public interests, and exceedingly unjust towards other public servants who are universally subordinated to this privileged service, and who, by no recommendation of qualification, or merit, or length of service, can rise from official insig- nificance to the privileged order, though their duties and offices are often the same, only with different names, and usually of equal importance. The principal sudder ameen, for example, whose duties have been already described, can never rise to the grade of a (so- called) civil or sessions judge, nor the deputy magistrate to be a magistrate, though he may have the full powers of the latter ; nor the deputy collector to be a collector ; nor is this the only injustice. The salaries of the Uncovenanted Service are in no fair proportion to those of the Civil Service, as is exemplified by the comparison already made between the salaries of the covenanted and uncovenanted judges ; and, as it must be added, is the fact as respects all other offices ; a deputy magistrate, for example, of the first grade, one who has been vested with the full powers of a magistrate by special order of Government, and, therefore, after long trial and experience of his merit, has about the same salary as the inexperienced and untried civilian when first posted and placed really in pupillage as an " assistant" to a magistrate, or as the civilian suspended for misconduct. In the matter of pensions the in- justice is of the same glaring kind, as well in respect of comparative amount, as of the" different conditions on which they are granted to the two clusses; and the same complaint applies to the furlough and other leave of absence rules, and to many occasional advantages, such as deputation allowances, extra pay and duplication of offices, which are exclusively possessed by the Civil Service. That in the matter of punishments, trials and complaints the same disparity exists. I'hat, allowing the necessity for a severe control, it ought to be exercised in the same manner, but is not over all public servants ; it is a common remark, and in a great degree true, that official negligence, unfitness, abuse even of authority and other faults on the part of the civilian are generally visited only by removal to another appointment of the same rank and emolument; even when under suspension for some grave ofience the civilian has a very considerable allowance, and he cannot be dismissed from the service even by the Governor-General in Council ; suspension is his worst punishment, and, upon being suspended, he becomes entitled to a certain fixed and considerable allowance. That there appears to be a striking deficiency of principle in the appropriation of offices to the privileged service ; many of these offices have duties simply of clerks and accountants, and which would be better performed by persons brought up for such employments, or without high pretensions J that the only special qualifications which the Civil Service ever generally ha's are gained, not by study or professional training, but by actual practice and experience at the public expense, and which never or rarely rests on a basis of education and science, and consequently they are not intrinsically superior to the qualifications of other classes of public servants ; that the practice of promotion by seniority appears to set aside all consi- deration of qualification ; the magistrate or collector is raised to be an appellate judge in civil causes, having previously been employed in the active business of police, and chiefly criminal law and miscellaneous business or revenue, and from being a judge he is made a commissioner of revenue, as far as appears, only because the salary of a judge is a few peppercorns less than that of a commissioner ; in short, changes of employment take place in rapid succession, apparently without reference to aptitude, general or special, or to any con- sideration but the tastes, interests or connexions of the individual, or his length of standing ; and one consequence is, that civilians are constantly found at the head of departments, offices and courts about which and their business they know little or nothing. The COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 61 The East India Company's system was founded on the supposition that the Hindu and Appendix, A. B.C. Mussulman population on the one side, and on the other the Company and its servants, were the only persons who had a right in the country, and could have a legitimate part in the governinent: the civil service is a remnant of this system, is constituted on this suppo- sition, and is in fact a monopoly of the best employments. The institution, in this respect, is unjust both to the native and Christian population; and in the former class a considerable part of the latter class may properly be included, for great numbers of pure European as well as mixed blood have been born in the country, therefore are natives of it, and have no other home. That the East India Company's commercial interests depended on its civil service system may be true, but the ascendancy of the Crown can better be promoted by a liberal policy in all respects to the Christian inhabitants. Your Petitioners beg your Honourable House to take a survey of the general character and condition of the classes to which your Petitioners belong in Lower Bengal : first, in Calcutta, they have increased in numbers as the foreign commerce of India has increased, and they are essential as its instru- ments ; ihey are the security on which the British capitalist relies for his information and returns ; they are essential also as aids to the natives in their commercial relations. In Cal- cutta, also, are established a large body of British-born and country-born tradesmen, who cany on many of the trades of Great Britain which were formeily unknown in India; by these classes is diffused among the natives a practical taste for a thousand new means of enjoyment supplied by the manufacturers of England. To these two classes must be added the legal profession in both its branches, and the medical ; and if they are only found in Calcutta, the cause is that the rest of the country is practically closed to them, not by any deficiencies or want of enterprise of their own, but by the East India Company's system. If a Sir William Jones, for example, were to desire to be a Company's judge, he could only become a moonsiff at 120 I. per annum in the first instance ; and the English Bar could find no scope in courts whose judges are not jurists, nor brought up in habits of discussion. Secondly, out of Calcutta, the Christian inhabitants are connected with capitalists and mer- chants in different parts of the world, and they are engaged in superintending and urging production of indigo, silk, and other things which form the exchanges of Great Britain ; as a whole, therefore, these classes may be described as comprising men of all ages and occu- pations — the mercantile, agricultural, professional, scientific and mechanical, — they present a fair image and representation of British capital, enterprise, acquirement, ingenuity and talent, and of the middle classes of England. It is by these, also, that the British people become known, and their character understood by the native population ; yet the East India Company's system in a great degree ignores these classes, refuses to them proper laws, and offends them, for the sake of its civil service, by one general exclusion from public employ- ment, on every fair principle, and leaves it to be supposed that British ascendancy depends on their exclusion ; as if cadets, who come out at the age of twenty-two, and whose life is passed in narrow official trammels, could alone be loyal. That the privileges of the civil service are not only unjust in these respects, but they are direct obstacles to the most neces- sary reforms ; but this topic, leading as it does to questions of administration, cannot be satisfactorily treated of in a petition. Your Petitioners, therefore, pray for such a change in the arrano-ements for supplying the public service in the civil departments, as to your Honourable House may, under the circumstances stated above, appear desirable ; and par- ticularly they submit to your Honourable House the expediency and necessity of inquiring into the nature and number of public employments in India, the salaries and emoluments attached to them, and the principles on which, if at all, the public service ought to be supplied from England. THE EAST INDIANS. That your Petitioners also beg to bring under the consideration of your Honourable House the case of the East Indians, a class all of whom are of Christian denomination, and though of mixed blood, British in education, habit and family, ties and connexions, but not British subjects within the technical signification of the term, and, consequently, they have no proper legal status, but are subject to the same criminal law as the natives, and they have no civil law out of Calcutta ; this state of the law in relation to them is an admitted grievance, and the same grievance exists in the case of all foreigners, not being Hindus or Maho- metans, such as French, Germans and other foreign people, and to whom also may be added the class of natives become Christian. That to provide an equitable status for all classes, not being British subjects nor Hindus or Mahometans, a law, known generally by the name of the Lex Loci, was prepared by the Indian Law Commission, and it would have relieved the East Indians, but it has not been passed ; and, therefore, your Petitioners press on your Honourable House the said case of the East Indians and other said classes of persons. EDUQATION. That your Petitioners desire to represent, on behalf of the East Indians and others of Christian denomination, who, by circumstances, are permanent residents in India, the want of collegiate institutions for the higher branches of education, and a university to grant diploma! of qualification. That, in the former especially, law should be taught as a science and a class of persons might thus be formed, qualified, in the first instance, for professional employment in the courts, and eventually for judical office ; and a very considerable body (20. App.) Q 62 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C of permanent Christian inhabitants desire that their claims and interests should be considered "in all arrangements for the education of the peoole. PUBLIC WORKS. That there appears to be, on the part of Government, a lamentably defective appreciation of the importance of roads and other public facilities of intercommunication. There is only one metalled road in the Lower Provinces, the grand trunk road, and it is the only road supported at the expense of Government. The other roads are made by the landholders, on the requisition of the magistrate, or with local funds, and generally they are designed to connect the different police stations, and not to open traffic or benefit the country people ; and from the nature of their materials, most of them, during the rains, are nearly impas- sable ; other roads there are none ; and the grand trunk road itself, for want of bridges and sufficient repairs, is usually impassable for carriage traffic during a part of the rainy season. It is a striking proof of the little regard paid to the public convenience, so far as this great highway is concerned, that of two small bridges which were carried away by floods in 1847, neither is yet rebuilt, though the situation is in one of the most populous and highly cultivated districts, where the traffic is great, and within 35 miles from Calcutta; but in the place of one only a ferry was for some years established, though both these bridges appeared in the Report published by the House of Commons as public works, which had been sanctioned, and to the present day they are replaced only with temporary erections insufficient for the traffic, and on one of them tolls are established where there were none before. Of course a Government which makes no roads, builds no bridges across the great rivers, much though they be needed. Public ferries there are, but many more there ought to be, and their management is much complained of, for delays and want of safety. On some rivers tolls are taken for keeping open their navigation ; but the navigation derives little benefit, and appears to be left to nature. The country offers singular facilities for canals for shortening the lines of communication from various districts to Calcutta and other places, and opening the country generally ; but they are not constructed. A canal which termi- nates in Calcutta is allowed to remain so narrow as to be constantly choked up with traffic boats, though it produces a large profit, and admits of enlargement. A large surplus is derived from ferry tolls and similar local sources, and is appropriated by promises and law, but not apphed to public improvements, except that in the year 1850-51, a few hundreds of pounds were so applied from the ferry funds, and distributed among several zillahs, each containing an area of several thousand square miles. Your Petitioners cannot pass unnoticed the subject of the railway : its construction appears to be prbceeding with slowness, which no company of capitalists unguaranteed would or could afford to tolerate, and which, therefore, must be ascribed to the influence of checks applied by Government to secure economy, and prevent fraud, but which usually do neither, as experience has proved, but are mere impediments, and have the sole merit of giving to Government an amount of patronage. That the Government has not at its disposal the variety or amount of scientific and engi- neering skill requisite for the proper prosecution of public works of utility; to the Military Board, which has their superintendence, they are secondary objects ; and works are con- stantly stopped from officers being called away to their military duties, and therefore your Petitioners think new provisions necessary for the prosecution of such works. THE COURSE OF LEGISLATION- That your Petitioners beg to represent to your Honourable House a few traits of the course of legislation. The early legislation presents some great measures, which are clearly referable to the impulse temporarily given by the discussions in Parliament. Among these the establishment of the liberty of the press deserves the first and most grateful mention ; it has been justified by its fruits ; the press has proved its worth by what is a great merit in a community so much under official influences — its general independence ; and it is equal to any colonial press in activity, in diffusing information, in intelligent discussion, in assisting the formation of public or political opinion, and in enlightened criticism on, and appreciation of, the conduct of Government. The attacks industriously made upon it of late from official quarters give your Petitioners much concern ; and if its merits should come under the con- sideration of Parliament, your Petitioners trust your Honourable House will rather take your appreciation of it from your Petitioners, and the classes to which your Petitioners belong, than from the official classes, many of whom appear to desire to restrain and abridge its freedom. Your Petitioners also refer with unqualified satisfaction to the abolition of town and transit duties, another very early measure of the new Legislative Council : so long as the East India Company's monopoly lasted, these duties were maintained ; their repeal was the inevitable consequence of commercial emancipation, and therefore really of Harliameutary origin. The new customs duties on exports and imports also deserve a favourable mention, as being moderate, but they were not estabHshed in Madras until some years later than in Bombay and Bengal ; and their uniformity has been again broken by a recent Act, which, raises the customs duties at Bombay alone, and therefore the sincere gratulations of the public are given, but with some doubt of the integrity of the fiscal principles of Government. An COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TEKRITORIES. 63 An uniform coinage for India also was early established, and more recently a ship regis- Appendix, A. B. tration, and other beneficial and similar commercial regulalions. — In the department of English Law there is much ground for grateful remembrance. The Wills Act has brought to India the recent statutory Law of Wills, and the law of Dower and Inheritance has been altered as in England ; but these changes, and others of the same kind, are due to the influence of the legal profession. In the Supreme Court, the modes of pro- cedure have rapidly followed the reforms of procedure in England, not through legislation, but mainly in consequence of a wise provision in the constitution of the court itself, that its practice shall conform to the courts of Westminster Hall. It would be praise undeserved to ascribe this large branch of legislation and reform to the spirit or judgment of the Indian Government; the praise is due to those who have no place in the East India Company's system. On the other hand, on matters over which British people have little or no influence, legislation is much less commendable as a whole. That when the civil jurisdictinn of the East India Company's courts was universally extended over British subjects, it would have been fair to have enlarged the appellate jurisdiction, which the Supreme Court already possessed under statute 55 Geo. 3, c. 155, s. 107, but instead of this being done, the same Act, which extended the jurisdiction of the Company's courts, repealed the appellate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court : the preserva- tion of the appellate jurisdiction of this court would have been some protection against bad procedure and misdecision. That recent legislation is distinguished by a great number of enactments, creating powers of an extraordinary kind unnecessarily, or conferring powers on persons not fit to exercise them : of the former kind, in Calcutta for example, where all legal authority reasonably exercised is respected, to an officer called the Collector of Calcutta (not the collector of customs or of municipal taxes, but of the land rents of the East India Company in its ancient right of a zemindar or landholder) has been given by a recent Act, power to punish for a contempt to himself, with a fine of 20/., and in default of payment to one month's imprisonment, thereby creating (1 .) a new offence ; and (2.) denying the ordinary redress for wrong, inasmuch as the Act referred to obliges any one who may be wronged to seek redress out of Calcutta, in a court of the East India Company in the country ; while, (3.) at the same time it empowers the officer himself to avail himself, in addition to the usual powers of distress, of the Cakutta courts and magistrates. The collector, in this case, belongs to the privileged service, and it is impossible not to surmise that the offence would not have been created in favour of a common tax or rent collector. As an instance of powers conferred on improper persons may be mentioned an Act, authorising native police officers to fine for an infraction of the salt laws, and to imprison for a fortnight. The Act book abounds in legislation of this character. That the legislation respecting crime is equally unsatisfactory ; by reason of the state of the police, every landholder, planter, banker, considerable trader and storekeeper is obliged to keep men, often in very considerable numbers, armed according to the custom of the country, to defend his property against midnight gangs called " dacoits," and other robbers ; such irregular forces, though necessary for self-protection, are of course liable to be era- ployed by neighbours at enmity against one another, and by circumstances to become aggressive, and hence the frequency of aflPiays, which are to be deplored ; but the primary evil in the whole set of circumstances is the state of the police, and its reform is the proper and essential rem(-dy, instead of which, mere legislation against crime is resorted toj ingenuities are exerted to bring the propertied classes within the criminal categories ; the laws on paper are made more severe ; increased judiciary powers are given to tiie magistracy, but the real evil remains unabated. It is obvious that legislation of this kind is only acceleration on the road to ruin. Act for relieving Magistrates from responsibilitr/. — That in 1850 aii Act was passed for the protection of magistrates, and others acting judicially, from responsibility to law. That the said Act, in the obvicus meaning of its terms, protects them in any illegality not clearly referable to a malicious object or intent ; it protects ignorance, negligence and incapacity, and is inconsistent with a Government according to law, and with justice to the community ; that if inftrior judicial oflScers are thus protected, the Government will be called on, and ought to give redress to parties illegally injured ; and that thus indirectly, but inevitably, the said Act also places the entire magistracy and inferior judicial officers in a state of responsi- bihty for their law to the Executive Government, and destroys their judicial independence, and therefore the said Act is also contrary to all sound principles of public policy. Postage. — That your Petitioners have still to desire the recognition, on the part of the Indian Government, of the principle on which postage rates in England have recently been reduced by Parliament, and a general reduction of postage rates in conformity with this principle. That your Petitioners believe that, on inquiry, your Honourable House would find that the existing inland postage rates defray the cost of the carriage, not only of all pnvate letters and ht^vv Post-office establishments, but also of all the correspondence of the Government of ]ndia,'Presidency Governments, and their numerous military and civil departments. Tolls on Roads and Bridges.— That your Petitioners deprecate the establishment of tolls on any of the 4. That after being in much uncertainty as to the intentions of Her Majesty's Govern- ment to make inquiries into the affairs of India, with reference to the approachino- termi- nation of the Company's Charter, your petitioners have learnt, with satisfaction? of the appointment of Committees of both Houses of Parliament, to take into consideration the mode in which the government of the British possessions in India is in future to be con- ducted. They cannot disguise from themselves the difficulties which those Committees will experience in endeavouring to ascertain the nature and results of the administration of the East India Company. The evidence accessible to them will be chiefly of pHrtes, who are more or less interested in the maintenance of the present system of the British Indian ad- ministration, and who cannot be expected, even were some of them free from a natural bias, to enter into the feelings and wants of a people widely differing from them in religion, manners and habits. But your petitioners rely on the wisdom and justice of your Kight honourable House, to give due consideration to the representations which they are embol- dened to submit, by the consciousness that, though differing in religion and colour, they are your fellow-subjects, and that their claims as such will not be disallowed. 5. "That your Petitioners submit that it is for many reasons at and proper that the period Shortened period of of such arrangements should be shortened, in order to bring the merits and working of them renewal. sooner under the review of Parliament. The go/ernments of remote dependencies of the empire are generally liable to be ill-conducted, particularly when those dependencies are of the magnitude to which Her Majesty's dominions in India have at this day attained, and when there are various and dependent Boards, and the grounds of their proceedings cannot be scrutinized by the public, except by the publication of correspondence by order of Parliament. It seems of paramount importance, therefore, that the administration of India should be more frequently brought under the revision of the supreme authority. An appeal to facts will corroborate this argument. By the last three Charters, the Government of the British Indian territories was continued to the East India Company for terms of 20 years ; but however urgently reforms and improvements in the system of government might seem to be required, none could virtually be introduced till the expiration of that long period. Accordingly, it required that period before British subjects were permitted to exercise their natural right of residing in, or even of trading with this part of their Sovereign's dominions, and another like period before they virere permitted to enter into the trade with China, which was open to all other nations. If British subjects had to wait such protracted periods in breaking through a monopoly, the natives of India cannot have a better prospect of obtaining reforms which they may pray for, or rights which may be admitted to be unjustly withheld from them. Your Petitioners are therefore most anxious that the term of the arrangements which may be next entered upon for the government of this country should not be extended beyond 10 years. 6,. That your Petitioners submit, that the existing system for tlie management of the The Home Govem- afFairs of India by the Court of Directors and the Board of Control is objectionable, on ment. account of its complexity and expensiveness, as well as on other grounds. The Court is Court of Directors. composed of 24 Directors, elected for five years each, who receive each a salary of 300 /., a sum which is manifestly inadequate to secure the services of persons qualified to assist in the government of a vast territory, and willing, conscientiously, to devote their time and attention to that great undertaking. But in reality the services of the Directors are com- pensated by the extensive patronage which each of them enjoys, consisting in the right to dispose of certain lucrative, civil and military, and other offices in India. For the manner in which that extensive patronage is used by them, they are under no sort of responsibility. Being originally a body of merchants, delegated by their fellow-merchants to carry on the trade with India for their mutual benefit, they received a suitable salary for the extra attention they gave to their joint concern ; and it was a part of their functions to select the men whom they sent out to India, as merchants, factors or writers, to look after their enter- prises, prepare investments of goods for the English market, and assist in the performance of other details of their commercial speculations. The salaries and emoluments given to their servants in India being small, in proportion to the extent of their business, the selection of proper employees was a responsible duty, and not a source of extensively coveted patronage. The Directors themselves were chosen for their knowledge of commercial transactions and capacity for commercial pursuits, without reference to administrative qualities. But since, in consequence of the change in the character of the East India Company, the Directors are required to be qualified not as merchants, but as Indian states- men, it is obvious that the principle on which, and the persons by whom they are selected, should undergo a corresponding alteration. The Board of Control was appointed with reference to the inconsistency of placing under a body of merchants the government of extensive territorial possessions, and with a view to the political acts of that boHy being under the actual direction of Her Majesty's Government. Accordingly, it was and is com- posed of a portion of Cabinet Ministers, but the chief responsibility is commonly understood (20. App.) S *° British subjects. Salary, 300/. Patronage. 70 APPENDIX TO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT Appendix, A. B. C. Inresponsibility. No tie with India. Stock guaranteed. The Government of India. to be left with the President of the Board, who holds no other appointment in the Ministry, and alone receives a salary as a member of the Board. The control of the Board extends to a part only of the acts of the Directors. The latter, therefore, are in many respects, particularly in the disposal of their patronage, without any check or responsibility. In those matters in which the responsibility of the Directors to the Board has been provided for, the control exercised is either indirect or liable to be resisted. The Directors may be compelled to issue orders affecting great political interests, without knowing, or, at least, without approving their tenor. The same Directors may recall a Governor-general who is in the confidence of the Ministry, but is adverse to the objects of the Directors' patronage, and thus defy the powers of the Board set over them. They have the power of instructing the Legislative Council of India to enact what laws they please, and abrogating any laws that have been passed by that Council; and it will be in vain for the people of India to offer any remonstrances to a body so constituted and vested with such powers. The people of India too are often at a loss to comprehend from whom certain measures emanate, whether from the local Government, by whom they are promulgated, or from the Directors, under whose instructions the Government act, or from the Board of Control, who have the right to prescribe the instructions which shall be sent to the Government for their guidance. Hence, they aie precluded from offering remonstrances, not knowing but that the authority remonstrated with may, have been acting entirely under dictation. Although it is fit that the general direction of the affairs of India should rest with Her Majesty's Ministers, subject to the controlhng authority of Parliament, yet it seems obvious that the persons who have to deliberate on the questions which arise relative to the good government of the country, should be men not only of great abilities, but sufficiently acquainted with the country whose destinies are to be placed in their hands, and, at the same time, taken from such different classes as to ensure a freedom from all class and other sinister influences. Your Petitioners therefore submit that, on the grounds set forth, the future management of the affairs of British India should be vested in one body, consisting of not more than 12 members, half of whom may be nominated by the Crown, and the other half elected by a popular body, but all of them holding the appointment for five years, and going out of oflSce by rotation ; that a suitable salary should be attached to the office, not only to secure men of the best abilities, and to ensure their giving a sufficient portion of their time to their duty, but also to serve as a compensation for the loss of patronage which may ensue from any arratjge- ments which Parliament may see fit to make. In the formation of a Board for the management of the affairs of India, on the principle above adverted to, your Petitioners submit, that the preference ought to be given to those candidates who have resided in India for a certain number of years, whether in or out of the service of the East India Company; and a method may be easily devised by which such candidates may be returned before those who do not possess that advantage. While, on the one hand, a Board so constituted will be more directly under the control of Parliament than two distinct Boards, with differing powers and divided responsibility, it will, on the other, be maintained at a less cost, and the government of the country will be carried on without those dissensions and other conse- quences which must arise from an opposition of interests. 7. That your Petitioners submit that the election of the members of the Board should not be wholly confided to the proprietors of East India Stock, who are a body comparatively small in number, and therefore easily liable to be brought under improper influence, and without sufficient motives to seek for the good government of the country. When the pro- prietors carried on their exclusive trade, they had the right to elect the directors by whom it was to be managed. At the present day they have no concern with India, beyond receiving the dividends, which have been guaranteed to them by the British nation, as the condition of throwing open that trade. It is proper, therefore, that other parties should be associated with them as an elective body, who have a deeper and more direct interest in the welfare of the country and the improvement of the administration Your peiitioners accord- ingly submit that Native and European British subjects resident in India or in England, who are holders of the East India Company's promissory notes of four or five per cent., to the value of 25,000 or 20,000 rupees respectively, should be allowed to vote in the election of members of the Board of Management for the affairs of India, and with that view, should be allowed to transfer the same to a local India stock, at the rate of interest they now receive ;_ and that after 12 months' registry bona fide in their names, they should be allowed to vote in person or by proxy, under the same rules which govern the votes of the present proprietors. Your petitioners also submit, that the privilege enjoyed, under Section 26 or the Charter Act, by proprietors of East India stock, resident in England, to vote by attorney, should be extended to proprietors .resident in India, and that these should have power to send their letters of attorney to England, within six months of the date fixed for the election of members of the Board for the management of the affairs of India. It should, however, your Petitioners think, be made a rule, that proprietors of stock of either description, who hold office under Government, should not be allowed to vote during their incumbency. 8. That the constitution of ttie Government of India is calculated to' prevent due attention being given to the internal administration. It is at present employed about the political and military concerns of a vast empire, in legislating for the several presidencies and making arrangements for, and governing, the newly^cq uired territories, and in exercising a general supervision over the acts and proceedings of the several subordinate governors and other authorities. The Governor-general, or, in his absence from the seat of Govern- ment, one of the members of Council, has also the immediate charge of the Government of BengaL COMMITTEE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIAN TERRITORIES. 71 Bengal. Duties so multifarious cannot be satisfactorily performed ; and as political and Appendix ABC military matters claim primary consideration, all that concerns legislation and the civil ' '— ' administration is treated as matter of very secondary importance. Your Petitioners are therefore of opinion that, to ensure the well-being and good government of these extensive territories, the functions of the Supreme Government should be limited to the objects which more appropriately belong to it, namely, the disposal of political and military aflFairs, a control over the governors of the several presidencies, and a veto on the laws proposed by a Legislative Council specially appointed. The Supreme Council may consist of three members, immediately appointed by the Board of Management fiom among persons who have been employed in the civil department*., or otherwise have had local experience; and the Commander-in-Chief may be an extraordinary member thereof, but having a voice only as to military and political questions. 9. That your Petitioners are humbly of opinion that both experience and expediency Relations of the require a modification of sections 49 and 70 of the Charter Act. The former, by autho Governor-General rising the Governor-general to act on his own responsibility, contrary to the opinions of the ■'^ith the Council. Council, practically invests him with absolute power. Such power, if given at all to an indi- vidual, should be confined to extreme cases, and the occasions on which it may be exercised sho3- of it. 1805. Sir R. H. Inglis!] When you spoke of a possible reduction of the army, do you wish the Committee to understand that you had reference to the existing condition of India, or to any possible augmentation of the dominions ? — I think now that if the duties have been reduced within compass, as I under- stand they have been, the army might be reduced to 800 men per regiment, and those 800 men might be formed into eight instead of ten companies ; I would suggest, that instead of employing the regular troops in the north-west frontier, local regiments should be raised, composed of goorkahs and other men from that part of the country. You might raise five regiments of the strength of 800 men each ; that would be equal to four regiments of the line ; and if they were well commanded, I think they would be much more efficient and more serviceable than regiments of the line. 1 806. The question last addressed to you had reference rather to the annexa- tion of dominions ; could that probably be effected coincidently with any reduction of the army ? — In the same way you might form local corps for the annexed dominions, retaining the European regiments and artillery, and re- taining the irregular cavalry. 1807. Mr. V. Smith.'] In speaking in an earlier part of your examination of promotion by seniority, you mentioned a case in which General Napier inti- mated to an oflicer that he had better withdraw from the command, and that he refused to do so ; can you state to the Committee whether any evil occurred from his so cimtinuing? — None ; he continued in the command of the regiment, and has now got his off-reckonings, and has come home. i8(:8. Can you suggest any remedy for the evils arising from promotion by seniority i — With the present constitution of the army 1 do not think ir is possible to correct it. i8og. Do you think that the constitution of the army could be so altered as to correct it: — No 1810; Mt. Hardinye.] Have there not been instances in which officers have been passed over for brigade commands, and on account of age and infirmity ? — Yes ; I have known several instances in which they have been passed over. 181 I. Viscount Jocelyn.] Is there not, in some of the regiments, a regular system of purchasing out senior officers r— There is. 1812. What has been the effect of the system ? — I think it has been very good. 1813. Wlien was it introduced? — It was first recognised by the Government about 14 or 15 years ajio. 1814. Will you explain how they arrange it among themselves; is it done in the same way as in the Queen's service? — I think not; different regiments have different ways of doing it, but, generally, a scale is drawn up by some officer who is competent to do it, or by an actuary frequently calculating the amount that each officer has to pay for the purchase of a step. 1815. What do you think has been the effect of that system upon the service ? — I think young men have been promoted in consequence ; I know many instances; 1 got my promotion in that way ; I paid 2,200Z. for mv regimental majority, otherwise I should now just have attained my regimental majority, instead of being a lieutenant-colonel, as I have been 18 months. 1816. You do not think any evil has come of the system ? — I think not ; on the contrary I think good has arisen from it. 1817. In speaking of the efficiency of the two branches of the service, which do you consider the most efficient, the irregular cavalry or the regular cavalry ? — I think the irregular cavalry is the most efficient by much ; the officers are all selected men. 1818. How are they selected? — By the Commander-in-Chief, who selects in every instance the best man that can be found for the command of an irregular regiment, and the best second in command, and the adjutant, they are all sclcctGQ men. 1819. What is the general average age of the officers commanding the irre- 0.10-7. S"^^'' \6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE I-ieut.-Col. gular corps ?— From 30 to 40, perhaps ; very frequently younger. There are Puirwit Gruitt. subalterns commanding irregular corps. 1 ~Marc"i7~8"' ' ^^°' ^^* ^' ^"^^*^-^ When you say that the Commander-in-Chief 14 arc 1 I 53. aivyjjyg selects the best men that can be obtained for those situations, is that the general opinion of the service, or has there been any dissatisfaction with the selections that have been made ? — No doubt you have a few grumblers, who think they have been passed over, and that inferior men to themselves have been selected ; but I am satisfied that the Commander-in-Chief and the Go- vernor general have distributed their patronage with the utmost purity, with reference to the efficiency of the service, and the benefit of the service, and not from private considerations. 1 821. Viscount Joceli/n.] May not the taking the best men for those irregular corps, have tended to lower the character of the officers of the regular corps ? — Yes ; the elite have been taken for the irregular corps. ] 822. Mr. Labouchere.] What is the average age of the commanders of irre- gular corps ?— Between 50 and 60. 1S23. Sir T. H. Maddock.j How long is it since the Comraander-in Chief was entrusted with the selection of officers for the irregular corps ? — The Com- mander-in-Chief always recommended to the Governor-general to appoint, but in Lord Hardinge's time the whole patronage of the irregular corps was given over to the Commander-in-Chief. 1 824. You have mentioned the name of a most distinguished officer, Sir Walter Gilbert, and you stated that he was probably 20 years in England before he became major-general, and returned to India, and that he subequently per- formed most distinguished services. Do you think it desirable that officers who have continued 15 or 20 years in England should return to such com- mands and be put upon the general staff of the army r — I think that is an in- stance in which it has answered extremely well. 1 825. But as a general practice, do you think it desirable ?— No, I do not. 1826. "Can you suggest any mode of providing for that class of officers ? — All those who have served their tour upon the divisional staff might be provided for by re-establishing a retired list, but that would involve great expense ; it would increase the promotion of the army greatly ; it would be a certain source for promotion, but the expense would be great. Lord Hardinge directed Colonel Stuart, the secretary to the Government, to ascertain what the expense would be of re-establishing the retired list, and he computed that it would cost the Government 40,000^. a year, but certainly if it were re-established 1 should think it would tend greatly to the efficiency of the army. 1 8^7. It is only a question of expense ? — Yes. 1 828. If such a measure were adopted, do you think that the effect of it would be that officers commanding divisions and officers commanding brigades would be 10 years younger than they now are upon the average ? — I think it might be so. 1829. To the great advantage of the service r— Certainly ; inasmuch as you have younger and more efficient men. Few men are as efficient at 60 or 70 as they are at 40 or 50. 1 830. Mr. Hume.] You have stated that the conduct of the native corps depends much upon the character of the commanding officer ; do you not con- sider it a great advantage for the Cummander-in -Chief and the Government, to be able to avail themselves of the services of any officer ihey may select for any corps, on account of his peculiar qualifications ? — Yes ; they do so. 1831. Has any mode occurred to you, by which the regular corps which have hitherto on service been short of officers, might have their number of offi- cers kept up, and at the same time the Government might still have the advan- tage of selecting officers for the irregular corps ? — I am not aware of any, except by ordering the officers to join from staff employment. 1832. Has it ever occurred to you that the object might be gained by the formation of a staff corps?- I have often heard the subject discussed of form- ing a staff corps, but I think there are very great difficulties in the way of forming a staff corps. 1 8^2. Does any mode occur to you by which the present system could be improved ? — I think not. 1 834. Might not an increased number of officers for the native regular corps provide for the case ? — Certainly. 1835. Are SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 17 1835. Are you of opinion that the power of selecting military officers for civil appointments ought to be continued?— I think they have done their duty so efficiently that it is desirable that it should be continued ; it is a very great inducement to officers to do their duty, and to distinguish themselves. 1 836. From the experience you have had as adjutant- general, you can state whether one of the pecuUar qualifications for those appointments is not a knowledge of the languages, and being able to communicate with the natives ? — No officer can hold a staff appointment till he has passed the prescribed examination in Hindostanee, and done four years regimental duty. T 837. Do not you consider that rule a great improvement in the service ? — Decidedly. 1 838. Are you of opinion that any benefit would arise from inducements being held out to officers in the Queen's corps to acquire a knowledge of the native languages in the same way as is done with respect to the Company's officers? — No doubt advantage would accrue to the Queen's officers from being so employed, and it would be an advantage to them to be so employed. 1 have known a Queen's officer holding a political appointment. I recollect a Queen's officer holding a political appointment in Rajpootana. 1839. You think that there would be no unwillingness on the part of the Government, if power were granted to make selection from either service, according to their fitness ? — 1 am not prepared to say that ; the Government have been very jealous of anything of the sort. I am of opinion that the Queen's officers have a fair share of the staff appointments in India; that, in proportion to the regiments, they have a due proportion of staff appointments ; the Queen's officers are eligible for some appointments in which a knowledge of the native languages is required ; Queen's officers are constantly employed as Persian interpreters to the Commander-in-Chief ; Lord Cough's Persian inter- preter at one time was a Queen's officer ; Sir William Gomm's Persian interpreter was a Queen's officer; Lord Hastings's Persian interpreter was a Queen's officer. I think that the Queen's officers have a fair proportion of the staff appointments. 1 840. You mentioned that considerable benefit has arisen from transferring certain duties heretofore performed by the native corps, to the police. Looking to your statements that one-third of the native corps are employed on civil dutlfiSi-Will, you state whether there are ntiy other duties uunneCled with the civil department which you think might be transferred to the police, in order to relieve the native corps r — There are other duties ; there are those treasure parties ; they have now adopted a system which has greatly relieved the native regiments. 1841. If railways were established in India, would it not save the troops greatly in respect of fatigue ? — I think it would be a very great saving, and 1 should think it would enable the Government to reduce the strength of the army very considerably. 1842. Would it not enable the Government to keep the European troops in health at the Hill stations, by having the means of transporting them on emer- gency from one end of the country to the other r — Yes ; I find that the sickness at the Hill stations is exactly one-half what it is at the stations on the plains, according to the report of the medical committee upon the subject. 1843. Are you of opinion that nothing could tend more to I'ender the army efficient than the establishment of railways speedily to different parts of the country ? — L think it would conduce very much to the efficiency of the army. 1 844. Mr. Cobden.] In looking at the relation which exists at present between the European officers and the sepoy troops under them, is it your opinion that the confidence and attachment between the two classes is greater or less now as compared with that which existed in former times under the old officers ? — I think it is less now than it was when I entered the service ; that there is less intercourse between the officers and the men than there was. 1845. Can you account for that?— I cannot. 1846. Do the officers go out with greater pride and hauteur of character, and treat the men with more contempt than used to be the case ? — I cannot account for it, but I think it is the case. 1 847. It arises of course from the conduct of the officers ; if the officer desired to attach the sepoy to him he could do so r— Yes, ■' 1S48. The blame, if there is blame anywhere, must have been with the 16—7. E European? Lieut.-Col. Patrick Grant 14 March 185; i8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Lieut.-Col. European? — I think so; I think it arises from so few of the senior officers Patrick Gran t, being present with the natives sometimes. \71a h 8 ^^49- J^'r Hume.] Do not the European officers now more generally acquire the native languages than they did r — The greatest inducement has been held out by the Government to the officers to study the language ; they cannot hold staff appointments till they do study them. An officer who passes the higher- examination receives the reward of a donation of 1,000 rupees, and he receives a reward of 500 rupees for passing the inferior examination, qualifying for staff employments. 1 850. Was it not expected that a superior knowledge of the native languages on the part of the officers would tend to increase the intercourse between the officers and the native soldiers ? — I think it will have that effect in time. 1 851 . Can you suggest any mode by which that result could be promoted ? — I think it might be promoted by retaining the officers more with their regi- ments ; the longer the men and the officers are together the better they like one another, and the more they associate. 1852. Mr. Labouchere.~\ Are the habits of the English officers in India more domestic than they used to be. Do they live more with their families, and. are they more often married men 7 — Certainly ; marriage has much increased among them. 1 853. Do you think that that may have had anything to do vith causing them to have less intercourse with the native soldier ? — I think it may perhaps have had some effect. 1854. Mr. Hume.'] Are there any messes in the native corps now? — I under- stand that since I left India messes are now compulsory in the native corps. I speak merely from hearsay. It was not the case when I left India. 1855. Can you suggest any mode by which that intercourse, which ought to exist between the European officers of the native corps and the men could be promoted ? — I think the only way is to keep the officers more with their regi- ments. I have already stated that the more they are together the better they know one another, and the better they like one another. 1856. Mr. Cobden.] Do you think there is any- difference. in., this respect be-, tween a state of war and a time of peace 1 — Certainly. In a time of war the officers and men ai-t: thrown together, and thoy learn to associate and to know, one another. 1857. In a time of peace there would be rather a tendency to distance and alienation ? — Certainly. 185!^. Chairman.] Is the same inducement held out to officers of the Royal army as to officers in the native army to acquire the native languages? — They each receive the same donation for passing an examination in the native languages. Frederick James Halliday, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. F. J. Hallidai/, Esq. 1859. Mr. Mangles.] IT appears from what you have stated that a consider- . ■ able part of the duties of the European judge of thezillah are those of super- intendence and control ? — Undoubtedly. 1 860. And the tendency of the system pursued by the Government has been, of late years, to discourage primary jurisdiction on the part of the European, judges, and to confine them as much as possible to superintendence and con- trol, and the hearing of appeals, in order to make the appellate jurisdiction prompt and close behind the native judges ?— No doubt that has been the ten- der cy for some years past, but latterly an idea has arisen that it has been carried a little too far ; namely, that the English judges are left now without any opportunity of practising themselves in hearing the primary cases. It is one of the difficulties of the system, perhaps, now to be improved, that the European judges are now placed upon the Bench, in the Court of Appeal, without suf- ficient judicial training ; the absence of any opportunity of practising in hearing of cases, in the first instance, has been now supposed to act prejudicially. 1861. Much stress has been laid upon the importance alleged by some,,of con- fining the judicial servants entirely to the judicial department ; do you think that f)racticable or desirable ?— I do not think it either practicable or desirable. J 862, Will you state your reasons for that opinion ?— Perhaps the most useful SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 19 F. J. Hallirlay, Esq^ useful knowledge, and that which qualifies a man best for the exercise of the judicial function in India, is after all, a thorough acquaintance with the natives, with their languages, with their habits of business, and their modes and dis- H March 1853. putes, and differences aUoiit land, and procedure arising out of land. That knowledge is only, as far as I know, to be derived from experience in the revenue department, and when a man has that, and has besides that amount of expe- rience in quasi judicial matters, which he also acquires in the collector's office, where a great deal of quasi judicial business is done, he has a great deal, per- haps, of what is necessary to qualify a man to be a good judge in India. 1 803. It has been assumed that the duties of a collector in India are purely fiscal; will you state to the Committee what amount of judicial, or what you have just expi*essed as quasi judicial business is performed by a collector in India r — I think the greater part of a collector s duties in India are quasi judicial ; the fiscal part of a collector's business is generally transacted chiefly by deputy, he of course being responsible for the result ; there are disputes and questions about responsibilities for payment, about claims for excess of imposts and matters of that kind, about rents and matters arising out of the relations between landlord and tenant in the first instance, about boundary disputes arising in course of settlement ; also very often about what are called resumption cases ; and there may be other things that I do not at present recollect ; all the most important part of a collector's duty are quasi judicial ; as regards resump- tions, they are in all respects judicial 1864. Summary suits? — Summary suits; when I say ''quasi judicial," I should explain that 1 mean judicial business performed in a summary method; it is, in fact, judicial business ; but it is done with le3S attention to form tiian in the regular civil courts. 186,5. Ii^ your previous evidence you have expressed an opinion that the best system, and the one most consonant with the feelings and habits of the people of India, is that all judicial business should be done in a summary way ? — As much so as the system admits of, no doubt. 1866. Mr. Hardinge^ Will you explain the administration of the law in our non-regulation provinces ? — ^The administration of the law in the non-regulation provinces, as far as I am acquainted with it, differs 1 think in them all : ihprp. are scarcplj^ any of them that are quite the same. Generally speaking, they are supposed to conform as near as possible to what they call the spirit of the regulations and laws of the regulation provinces, having discretion to depart from them when it may seem to them absolutely necessary. As to the pro- cedure in some of the non regulation provinces, there exists a set form of procedure laid down by rule perhaps in all, but it is less in detail in some than in others. To answer that question properly, I should go through the non- regulation provinces as far as I know them. 1867. Can you state how the law is administered in Assam and Tenasserim ? — In Assam a very stringent method of procedure, corresponding to that of the regulation provinces, Avas laid down for the guidance of the judicial officers, and they follow that, adhering also to the spirit of the regulations in all cases where they think it applicable, and the tendency is to introduce it and adhere to it in all ; they have native subordinate courts, and Europeans overruling the courts, much upon the same principle as they have in the regulation provinces. On the whole, in Assam the endeavour has been to assimilate themselves as far as they can to the system in force in the regulation provinces ; in the Tenasserim provinces the system is different in some respects ; they have a much looser code of procedure, and in that respect they have very much created one for themselves, and they do so as they go along ; they administer the Burmese law in cases to which it is applicable, and in their own notions of equity and successions, such as the case may seem to require. They have there English universally as the language of the record, which is not the case in Assam, nor, as far as I know, in any other of the regulation or the non- regulation provinces ; and they use, in criminal cases very successfully, and in a manner which I think might be made a model of in other parts of our territory, the institution of juries. i8(38. Will you state who exercise those functions ; how many officers are there in each province ?— There are judicial officers in the Tenasserim pro- vinces ; the head of all is a commissioner, who acts as a court of appeal m civil and criminal cases for all the courts under him, and also as a sessions 0.10-7. '^''"'^ 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE F.J.Hallida^.,Esq. court to try heinous cases sent up by the magistrates. Under him there are European officers, called principal assistants ; one of those is stationed in each .14 March 1853. division of the Tenasserim provinces; he has powers as a civil judge, very much resembling in extent those of the civil judges of the regulation provinces, and on the criminal side he is a magistrate ; he is also the collector, all functions being joined in one hand there ; he has one or more assistants, called junior assistants, according to the exigency of the business in the province, to whom subordinate civil and criminal duties are entrusted, subject to a reference and appeal to the principal assistant. There is also a native judge, a Burmese, called a "tseekai." i86y. What salary does the native judge receive?— I think the native judge of the Tenasserim provinces has not more than 100 rupees a month. The tseekai has a jurisdiction in civil and criminal matters to some extent below that of the junior assistant, and subject in like manner to an appeal to the prin- cipal assistant, all being under the control cf the commissioner, that is, the judicial establishment. 1870. What other natives are employed in the judicial establishment besides thisnative judge?— I know of no other natives in the Tenasserim provinces employed in any respect in the administration of justice, except the village officer, who answers completely to our police daroga, who is called a young- youp, who is placed in the interior, and who has the control of the police ; he has cases reported to him, and he reports to the magistrate, and sends up the Criminals and the witnessess. Any officers besides those employed are merely ministerial officers of the collector, of whom they employ very few, the system being in great oistinction from the system which prevails in the regulation provinces (owing, no doubt, to their having much less to do), that the judges can all of them perform in a great degree their own work, and are very Uttle subject to the operations or influences of the native ministerial officers. 1871. Mr. Hume.'] You have said that the juries upon the whole work well. Of what number do the juries consist in those cases, and of what class are the jurymen ? — A Ust is made by, the principal assistant in each division, which is revised by the commissioner, of perstsus qualified to serve as jurymen in the province : the hst contains chiefly the names of natives, but there are a few Europeans, and quasi Europeans upon it, especially In MouUnein itself, which_ is the head-quarters of the province. From those lists persons are summon*ecl from week to week to attend at the head-quarters where the sessions judge, that is, the commissioner, is sitting. He empannels a jury of, I think, three or five, and tries with their assistance all criminal cases which come before him, they being all of a somewhat heinous character. Juries are not used by the lower tribunals. 1872. When you say persons qualified, will you state . what is the qualifica- tion r — A wide discretion in that respect is left in the hands of the principal assistant to the commissioners, and the commissioner himself; you may say that thev have the actual nomination of the jury lists; and they exercise their discretion as to the persons whom they think fit to put upon them. Practically I have reason to think that the actual weight of the burden falls chiefly upon those who reside, or for the time- being come for their business into the chief town in which the sessions are held. 1873. Are juriesi only used at those sessions ?— Only at those sessions. 1874. Mr. Hardinge.] Then the Punchayet system is not existing in those provinces ? — No. 1875. Chairman.] Must the jurors all be agreed ?— No ; nor is their verdict potential ; that is to say, the judge may set it aside. , ^876. Sir G. Grey.] And substitute another verdict for it, or grant a new twal ? — And substitute another verdict for it. iti77. Mr. Labouchere.] Do you know whether that is often done?— I do not know ; I should say, speaking of juries, that an order of the Government to attempt the administration of criminal justice in heinous cases', by means of juries, according to this plan, was issued many years ago, during Lord Auckland's administration. The officer in charge of the province at that time and for many years afterwards, had great doubts of the propriety of using juries, and he took upon himself not to carry that -part of the Government order into effect. His omitting to do this was not known to the Government, the control over those provinces in those days bmg more, lax than it has been since SELFXT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 21 since. But within the last five years an officer was sent there to take charge F-JHalliday,^q. of the province, Mr. Colvin, who, finding this rule for the use of juries stand- ing on his books, and not knowing why an attempt should not be made to carry "^ ^^^'^^^ '^^3- it into execution, put it in force, omitting one part of the rule, which was that the jurors should be paid for their services. He told me himself, and the in- formation was corroborated by his successor, the present commissioner of the provinces, that it had worked extremely well ; that the juries were of great use to him, both in suggesting lines of examination and methods of investiga- tion, and generally by the equity and justice of their verdicts, and that the people showed no disinclination whatever to serve upon them ; that he believed the people were getting gradually accustomed to them, and that it was becom- ing popular amongst them ; in short, that the experiment had been completely successful. 1878. Mr. Hardinge.] Does the system in the other regulation provinces under the government of Bengal, diifer materially from what you have now been describing ? — It differs, no doubt. In the first place, they have no juries, though, under their discretion of using the regulations as far as they please, they have a right to use juries, according to Regulation VI. of 1830, which gives power for the employment of juries in the regulation provinces; but it is very seldom used, except in the case I am going to speak of; I am speaking now of Assam. In those other non-regulation provinces with which I am acquainted, they make their system correspond, in my opinion, too closely to the more formal system of the regulation provinces ; they use too much writing and record, their proceedings are too exact and formal, and they have a neces- sity for the employment of too many ministerial officers. In speaking, however, of the employment of juries in the other non-regulation provinces, 1 am bound to say that I have only lately been made aware, by a very distinguished officer, (Colonel Wilson, since resident at Nagpore) who had the control of the admin- istration of justice in the south-western frontier districts ; that he never tried a case, sitting as a judge, without the use of juries constituted and empowered very much as 1 have described the juries in the Tenasserim provinces to be constituted and etopowered, and that he always derived the greatest assistance from them in every respect, if they were carefully chosen, th^. nhoipft resting always with hiiixself r"ana~that he would on no account desire to administer justice without their assistance. 1 879. Are the judicial establishments the same in all the Betigal non-regula- tion provinces ? — They are the same, with some slight exceptions. In the south western provinces the judicial establishments are very similar to those of Assam, and both are similar to the establishments in the regulation provinces; in both they have moonsiffs and sudder amins, and principal sudder amins, and judges. 1880. Can you recollect what salaries the moonsiffs, the sudder amins, and the principal sudder amins, in those provinces receive ? —My impression is that they receive the same salaries as in the regulation provinces. 1881. Viscount Jocelyn.'] Do you think that the salaries are sufficient to secure proper men ? — I have already said that I do not think the salaries sufficient, speaking of the salaries in the regulation provinces. 1 882. Sir G. Grey.'] Does the criminal jurisdiction of which you have spoken in those non-regulation provinces extend to Europeans ? — No, but I should say that that is a difficult point, into which I am not competent to enter. 1 883. But practically do you know whether Europeans charged with offences in those non-regulation provinces are amenable only to the Supreme Court of Calcutta?— Practically they are amenable only to the Supreme Court. There may be legal doubts whether in some of the provinces, especially those acquired since the last Charter, Europeans are not as much subject to the tribunals a;s any other inhabitants ; but it is a question depending upon very nice legal argument. 1 884. Are the juries of which you have spoken made use of in civil as well as well as in criminal cases ?— In Tenasserim they are not made use of in civil C81S6S. 1885. Mr. Mangles.] Do you think that a judicial officer (if there were such an officer), who had never held the revenue appointments, and had been tonfined entirely to judicial business from the time of his arrival in the country, would cteteris paribus be as competent for the judicial functions as an officer 1? who 0.10—7. ^ ^" 22 MINtJTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE F.J.Hol>idni/,Esq. who had gone through the service, and been employed^ in revenue duties in the first instance ? — I cannot think that he would be so competent ; I think he 14 March 1853. would be wanting in a great deal of that knowledge which in this country grows up with a man as he mixes with his fellows, and transacts business for himself and others, independently of his legal profession. 1 886. Chairman.^ You mean in England ? — I mean in England ; here a man acquires all his knowledge which we wish him to gain in India by going through the revenue department, of himself, as he passses through life. I sup- pose that in this country any man who knew nothing but law would be a very bad judge, and still more roust it be the case in India, where law is the least thing he has to know in order to fulfil properly the duties of the bench. 1887. Mr. Hardinge^ Can you state the proportion of military officers as compared with civil servants in those establishments ? — They are almost entirely military officers. 1 888. Sir T. H. Maddock.] You have been describing the system which prevails in the non-regulation provinces ; do you consider that the police is as efficient in those provinces as in the regulation provinces ? — As I said before, the country is very extensive ; the Punjaub is a non-regulation province. 1889. The question refers to Assam, Tenasserim, Arracan, and the south- western frontier provinces ? — I confess I think it is quite as efficient in the regulation as in those non-regulation provinces. i8go. Do you consider that justice is as fairly and as equitably administered in those provinces as in the regulation provinces ? —Indeed I do. I was very much struck upon a visit which I paid three years ago to the Tenasserim pro- ' vinces, when I took occasion particularly to inquire into the manner of administering justice, with the excellent manner in which justice was admi- nistered in those provinces, both as to form and substance. I think I have said that I thought that in many respects it might form a model for the regu- lation provinces. 1 89 1 . Then adherence to the regulations in Bengal, is not altogether an un- mixed good r — I have not been examined about the effect of the regulationsin Bengal at all. I should say, that I should consider the regulations to involve a good deal of mischief. The regulations relating to the judicial system, were for the most part made at a tinje when the idea of tlie summary adnainiGtratimuaf justice was uncogenial to English minds, and it was thought that the best thing to be done was to make them as much like as circumstances permitted, to similar tribunals in this country. Consequently, the regulations were framed as far as possible for the purpose of making the courts in Bengal humble imitations of the courts at Westminster Hall. And being worked amongst such a people by men untrained to legal niceties it may be supposed that this system pro- duced, in course of time, a great deal of complexity and difficulty, and expense and, delay in the administration of justice, which now adays we see might have been 3,voided, and which are avoided by the changes which are actually taking place gradually and prudently (for you cannot change these things on a sud- den) in the country itself, under the recommendations of those employed in the administration of justice, and under the laws framed for that purpose by the Legislative Council. 1 892. Supposing all the criminal laws were formed into a code, or that what is called the penal code, or any other code of the same nature were passed into a law, do you imagine that it would be of any great advantage to the people generally, unless the form of procedure was altogether re-formed and te vised by the establishment of a good system of administering justice in the provinces f — I will answer that question in this way, that I think it is of pri- mary importance to improve the procedure, and no doubt it is of great import- ance secondarily to that to improve the law. But I say, that in fact, there does exist a very fair criminal law already, and the call for improvement in that, though urgent, is not so urgent in that respect, as in respect to the procedure. 1893. Is there any plan now in contemplation of amending the forms of procedure in Bengal, or generally, in India? — No new code of procedure has been brought forward, but the defects in our procedure, both in civil and in criminal cases, have attracted grea,t attention in the minds of people, in and out of the service, and various amendments are gradually taking place in difr ferent parts of it, bringing, it by. degrees more into conformity with what is liow thought to be an improved system, so that I think things are in them- selves SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES. 23 ^Ives tending towards a very great improvement in that respect in Bengal, and F.J.nattidav Esq the Law Commissioners are framing a code of procedure, but nothing has been done upon it. ,^ March 1P53. 1 894. Have any recent measures been adopted to increase the efficiency of the police in Bengal?— The pay of the subordinates of the police has been considerably increased, and they have had new objects of ambition opened to them by the promotion of some of their number to be deputy magistrates ; and more recently there has been a plan for bringing the village watchmen more under the control of the magistrates, and for ensuring to them a regular and certain amount of pay, which formerly was by no means the case. The law for the purpose was under- consideration when I came away, and I believe is under consideration still. 1895. Has any recent step been taken to prevent those serious outbreaks and breaches of the peace, which formerly arose from disputes between zemin- dars, disputes generally regarding lands and boundaries ?— 1 am not aware of any special measure having been taken for that purpose. Anything that tends to improve the administration of civil justice, and to enable persons to get speedy redress in the civil courts, if accompanied by an improvement in the police will tend, and as far as it has gone has tended to put down aflrays on account of boundary disputes, but they still exist though not, I think, by any means to so great an extent as in former years, ' 1896. Mr. Ellice.'] Great complaints are made, in petitions which have been presented to Parliament, with respect to the efficiency of the police generally in India ; will you state your impression of the efficiency of the police generally ? — Here again I must limit my answer, by saying that I speak with reference to the police in the lower provinces, with which I am more familiar than any other ; I cannot give it a good character ; at the same time I must say, that in the hands of a good magistrate, even now the police are capable of being made much more efficient, and that they are more efficient than you would sup- pose to be the case, judging from the complaints to which allusion has been made. Much of the fault attributed to it, and the want of success which has been complained of, is almost insuperable in consequence of the character of the people with whom you have to deal. Yon Imve a cowardly and uiiLrutliful • pooplc, nut ill tne smallest degree disposed to aid the police, but rather the contrary ; you have persons of power and influence, connected with the land, who, so far from assisting you, are charged by their countrymen with assisting thieves and robbers, and participating in their spoil ; and you have, at tht: very foundation of the police system, a thoroughly ill paid and demoralized set of village watchmen, and with respect to whom the zemindars resist most strongly any attempt made to put them upon a better footing, because it will cause them, they think, additional expense ; and you have to work through native agents, and through a class generally whom you cannot afford to pay sufficiently, and who, therefore, are exceedingly untrustworthy ; you had a system which, in fact, was rotten \^ hen you found it, and which will take many years to put into a proper state ; at the same time I am far from saying that much might not be done, and far from hoping that much will not be done. 1897. Has there been any neglect, in your opinion, on the part of the authorities in India in respect of doing their utmost to improve this system of police? — I cannot say that there has been neglect; perhaps the authorities have not gone into the matter quite so fast as some might have wished, the chief obstacle having, in fact, been the want of. means ; but there has been always a very strong disposition on the part of the Government to improve the police, and from time to time there have been very great efforts. In 1838 a committee was formed for the purpose by Lord Auckland, to investigate the state of the police in Bengal, and they examined a great number of persons in and out of the service, natives as well as Europeans, regarding the best manner of improving it. The Government has adopted, I believe, every suggestion made by that police committee of any importance between that time and this ; so that it can hardly be said that the Government has neglected its duty. But I should say that since 1838 public opinion has advanced a little; and it has been thought that something more or something else might be done ; and it is because that something more or something else has not been dope now, that people are apt to think the Government has neglected its duty. 1898. Mr. Hardinge.} What is your opinion as to the substitutiou which 0.10—7. ^^^^ 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE F.j:HaUi!iay,'Es(i. has been proposed by some persons, of a military police for the present ci'vi! ^ police ? — ^With respect to Bengal, a military police in Bengal could not consi^ 14 March 1853. ^^ ^^^ natives of the country. The Bengalee is not suited to be a soldier ; and therefore, a military police in Bengal must be a police composed entirely of foreigners, men despising and fond of oppressing the Bengalee, having no feeling in common with him, and not understanding his language ; and it is easy to imagine what would be the effect of appointing a police with arms iti their hands to arrest thieves and to detect crimes in a country, the inhabitants of which they despised, and with the language of which they were utterly unacquainted. 1 899. Sir J. Hogg.^ Has any force, in the nature of a military ptdice, been at any time in existence in Bengal, and if so, was it found to answer, and has it been continued, or has it been discontinued? — There were, for a number of years, certain regiments, called provincial battalions, attached to the police, as a sort of military police in Bengal, and they were found not to answer at all ; as a police, whenever so u^ed, were wholly inefficient ; and as a military forces on almost all occasions whenever it was necessary to try their mettle, they thoroughly failed ; and they were done away with, with one or two exceptions, by Lord William Bentinck, and I believe none has regretted it. 1900. Viscount Jocel^n.] What were the names of the different ranks of officers in the civil police force ?— There is, first of all, the magistrate, with one or two assistants under him, as the case may be ; he has also under him two or three deputy magistrates not in the regular service, and chiefly natives, stationed either at other stations or in different parts of the interior of his district ; below them again there are the daroghas or thanadarS, who are stationed in various parts of the districts, with a body of from 1 5 to 25 burkun- danzes, or ordinary police constables under them ; they are assisted also by an officer called a jemadar, who is a kind of sergeant, and by a clerk, who is called a mokhurrir; under all these again are the village watt'hmen, who ought, according to understood usage, to be at the rate of about one to every 50 houses in the village; but th&yJiaY.e fallen into very great discredit and dis- organization, in consequence of there being actually no law which empowers the GovernTYifini- or any officer of the Government, to enforce either their appointment or the payment of their dues. — - ~ - , — . 1 90 1 . What is the pay of the lower class of officers in that force, beginning with the jemadai ? — The pay of the jemadar is 10 rupees a month, and the pay of the mohurrir is sometimes eight. 1902. What is the darogha's pay ? — The darogha is one of those whose pay has been increased latterly ; his pay is 50 rupees, 75 rupees, or 100 rupees a month ; it has been raised from 25, which was the rate at which it stood for many years. 1903. What class of men are the officers employed in the lower grades, from the jemadar downwards ? — They are of a very low class ; below the jemadar there is nothing but the burkundanzes, who are called the cotistables; below them there are the village watchmen ; the burkendanzes only receive, i think, four rupees a month, and they have very large opportunities of peculation and oppression, and they are geneyally of a low order in society, though not always by any means of a low caste ; the village watchmen are the lowest ; they are formed almost entirely of very low and degraded castes, mere outcasts, in fact ; they would receive, if they received is anything at all, about a rupee and a half a month. 1 904. Do you believe it possible to have an efficient police force when the men are paid at so low a rate as that? — It is wonderful what is possible in good hands, and seeing what I have seen, and what I have heard has been done by some magistrates in India for many years past with these extraordinary mate- rials, I cannot say that the thing is iiDpossible, but it is very difficult. 1905. Do you think that if opportunities were given to men who have served in the array as soldiers, of entering the police force, you would get a more efficient body of men ? — I do not ; principally for the reason I have stated, that many of the men who serve in the army are Hindostanees, and we are speaking of Bengal ; the Hindostanees do not even know the Bengal laftgUagei and they particularly flespise the Bengalee men, and oppress them wherever they find them ; they would be utterly useless as a detective force, at all events, though SELECT COMiVIITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES.] 25 though if mere courage were required they would no doubt be aU that could be f j HdUdau Esq desired. " J 1906. Do not you believe that the class of men by whom the poUce is now 14 Mmch 1853. carried on are open to bribery and to all kinds of corruption ? — ^To an immense extent. 1 907. Mr. Zabouchere.] You stated that there was a general impression that something more, something else, ought to be done with reference to the improvement of the police, besides the recommendations that were made by the Committee to Lord Auckland ; what do you mean by " something more or something else ; " what is the kind of way in which it is thought that the police might be improved ? — One idea, which has been a very favourite idea with the indigo planters of the interior, is, that if the police at the subordinate stations was put into the hands of Englishmen it might be an improvement. Another has been, that if the indigo planters themselves were largely employed as magistrates in the interior, that would be an improvement. Zemindars, again, are apt to fancy that if similar powers were given to them it would improve the police ; and they very often suppose that it is for want of sufficient vigour in the law and in the administration of it, to be exercised in a way quite incom- patible with their notions of justice, that the police works ill. For instance, this has been a very favourite notion with them : they would have the magis- trates seize, and without further investigation, commit to prison for the remainder of their lives, any persons who the zemindar said were people of bad character (a thing conceivable in a country where you can rely upon testi- mony, but in India, utterly inconceivable), and which would put all the people of the village entirely into the hands of the zemindar, not to speak of their other enemies. 1908. Are you able, at this moment, to specify any general improvement in the police system recommended by public opinion, which you think feasible r — . I cannot at this moment recommend anything to be done. 1909. Are you of opinion that there is any great improvement in the system of police which might be effected by the executive government ?— There is no question tliat rendering the pay of the village police certain and sufficient, and rendering their situations respectable, would be the chief thing ; and that alone would go a great way towards the impravenaent of the pnline, 1 think tK© gi!>ea4!eet »va,^. After tliat,~as'"s6on as it could be afforded, the pay of the subordinate of&cers of police, of whom mention has been made, should be increased: be- cause while they are paid at a rate that renders it almost impossible to convict them of petty bribery, though you know it to exist, you cannot rely upon them as instruments in your hands. 1910. Is the police materially better in some parts of India than it is in others ? — My experience of other parts of India, besides Bengal, is slight, and not recent, but as far as my experience of the police in the upper provinces, has gone, I should say it is very superior to that of Bengal. 191 1. To what is that to be attributed r — Partly because the people will not be so oppressed and so bullied by the police officers as they are in Bengal ; but chiefly because they work for themselves ; you cannot enter a village in the upper provinces, tie up the women and children, and put them to the torture, without running the chance of the people opposing you by force ; they will do the best they can for themselves in all cases ; but in the lower provinces they act upon all those occasions like a flock of sheep. 1912. Sir G. Grey.] It has been stated that there has been an efficient police lately estabUshed in the Punjaub ; are you aware of the constitution of that police force ?— I am not. 1913. Mr. Mangles.] Some years ago had you not a plan of your own for taking the village police out of the hands of the zemindars entirely, and placing it under the control of the Government ?— Yes ; that arose out of ray strong impression that until the village poUce was better constituted you could not hope for order ; and I doubt whether you have any chance of its being well orgatiized till you put it completely into the hands of the magistrates. It was strongly opposed by men here and in India, to whose judgment great weight is due. Recently the Government has made the nearest approach to the system which I thought was possible in the improvement which 1 have stated to be now in progress ; namely, securing to the watchmen the right to claim a fixed and adequate rate of pay, and giving the magistrates the power to enforce 0.10-7. ^ ^^^ 26 MlNtfTEg OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE F. j.Haiiida7/, E^q. the payment, and to see that the vacancies in the village police are properly^ Marcli 18 ^^^^ ^^' ^"' *^^ ^^^^ '^^ ^^^^ ^^ before in the hands of the villagers or zemin- 53- (jars^ a^g ^j^g ^^se may be. That is an approximation to the system which I proposed, with which I myself at present am satisfied, and if it is carried into effect great improvement will be the result. 1914. Will you explain how the village jemadars are appointed; are they appointed by the Government, and if not, by whom ? — The Government has by law no control whatever ,' and latterly, in practice, it has had no control what- ever over either the appointment or the dismissal of the village chokeydars. The magistrates did exercise control for a number of years, but it was dis- covered by the zemindars concerned that the magistrates had no legal power, and, of course, that being the case the magistrates were obligted to give it up^ It rests now entirely With the villagers, or with the zemindar, or with the vil- lagers and the zemindar collectively, to appoint the chokeydars, and they have to pay them, or to leave them to pay themselves by connivance at robbery, or in any way that they can ; practically they omit to appoint them whenever they can, and pay them as little as they can. 1915. You spoke of the character of the people as being a great obstacle to the efficiency of the police. Is not the character of the instruments unavoid- ably used by the magistrates part of that obstacle ? — No doubt. 1916. Is it not the fact, that a very large proportion of the time of every magistrate is taken up in watching his instruments and guarding against their abuses, so as to prevent their interfering with the discharge of his duties ? — Every magistrate is obliged to act as if all the men under him were liars, and therefore a great part of his time and attention is taken up in foiling the lies and tricks of those upon whose agency, in theory, he is compelled to rely. 1917. Sir T. H. Maddock.'] Do you consider that any reform of the'village police will be efficient as long as the persons employed in that force are to receive their pay from the zemindars ?— Yes ; I do not think that is impracti- cable so long as they have a right to claim their pay, and the power exists of enforcing their claim. 191 8. Would there be any difficulty in compellmg the zemindars to pay annually, or at stated periods, into the treasury a sum sufficient for the proposed salariess uf thuac polioo ooneorvante, in. which nqse their pay would bc distributed to them by the collector? — That was precisely what was alludea to as my pru- prosition, but it was thought by many, and I think with justice, that it tended to much centralization, and that it severed the rightful connection between the zemindar and the village, and the watchmen of the village, and that it would be better done in the manner now proposed, by causing the zemindar to pay ■what he ought, but not cutting off the connection between him and the village police. 1919. You have described the gradations of the police force ; will you inform the Committee whether the officers of police generally, and the burkundanzes in particular, are armed or unarmed? — the burkundanzes are armed with' swords, in no other way, and the village police are armed with sticks. 1920. Can you state whether of late years there has been any diminution in the number of dacoitees and gang robberies in Bengal ?^In four or five districts in the immediate neighbourhood of Calcutta so far from a diminution there has been an increase ; in other districts there has been a diminution, but all over Bengal there has been a great diminunition during the last few years in the atrocity of the nature of those gang robberies ; dacoitees are more numerous, but they are more insignificant in character. 1921. Mr. Mangles.'] Do you mean to say that there has been an increase in the number of gang robberies of late years, as compared with the period when gang robberies were so rife in Kishnaghur and Bardwan in former years ? — 1 am not prepared to say whether it is so or not, but as I'egards the periods with which I am better acquainted there has been a great increase* [Adjourned to Thurday next, at One o'clock. feZ- Select Committee on Indian Territories. 185 2-53. MINUTES OF EVIDIsIJCE: LuncB, 14° dk Martiil 1853. General the Right Honourable Hugh Viscount Goughj G. c. B. - - - - - p. 1 Lieutenant- Colonel Patrick Grant - - P- 9. Frederick James Halliday, Esq. - - - P- 18 [Great inconvenience having arisen from the Publication of Minutes of Evidence taken before Committees, and 'of Papers, Sfc, laid before them, it is particularly requested that Members receiving such Minutes and Papers will be careful that they are confined to the object f ok which they are printed— the special use of the Members of such Committees.'] '■^'^^^^'^^^^m^ '- -':k^ mi ::^5^:^^ji wamm p III i 1 mm J ^ I /./ *J-'i'['': .1 /..> f li^t^^iiW::^ ■^Sm ■ V^.'T^'vvv^iTFvTVvi'U^ S^^V^^ ilv , =*>J